Slashdot Mirror
Why Valve Wants To Port Games To Linux: Because Windows 8 Is a Catastrophe
An anonymous reader writes "Gabe Newell wants to support Linux because he think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in PC space. He wants to move away from a closed ecosystem of Microsoft Windows 8. He recently made a rare appearance at Casual Connect, an annual videogame conference in Seattle. From the allthingsd article: 'The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People don't realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior. We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.' Some Linux users think that this is a win-win situation for Linux users as it will brings good game titles on the Linux system that haven't been there and it will protect steam business model from both Apple and Microsoft."
We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well.
If you want to flush money down the toilet, why not just give your money away to anyone you see on the street?
I see you've cleverly rewritten about 10% of the article and pasted the rest verbatim into the article summary.
How's that journalism degree working out for you, timothy?
Windows 8 is a catastrophe only for those who use it with a keyboard and mouse. For the rest of us, it is the greatest desktop operating system.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
I think a lot of people will stay at Windows 7 and just skip Windows 8. I don't see how that is a problem for Valve.
Yes Microsoft will have their own app store, but Steam has many people locked in right now...
I serve the Newell
Look no further than iOS and Android. No matter what the fanbois of each platform say, games invariably are among the top downloads.
enough said.
If they are serious about this, they need to get Dell or HP to start building gaming oriented linux desktops and notebooks. Linux will never gain traction as long as the users have to actively decide to install it.
So the summary is implying that several years ago when Linux Steam work began, somehow Valve knew that Windows 8 would be bad even before Microsoft had done much with it beyond initial planning? TFA actually presents a much more balanced picture: Gabe Newell had an interview, and spoke about many things including wearable computers, open platforms, and Linux support. As usual, the Slashdot submitter posted the most inflammatory piece, and the editors like it that way. TFA only even mentions Windows once, in the quote TFS copied!
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
the real thing holding back Linux is games?
how about the fact that opening MS Office docs on Linux with one of the many "Open Office" solutions is still a nightmare?
A guy facing losing his main income source to a rival calls that rival names? I'm shocked I tell you shocked!
Most folks will continue using Win7, etc, until Windows 9....and the number of Linux users that are gamers will remain unchanged.
gabe is a tard.
In my opinion, the biggest hurdle that Valve will face won't be porting Steam itself over to Linux, but porting the library of games over.
While I don't know what the actual facts and figures are, I think that it's a fairly safe bet that most of the games on there will have been coded around Microsoft's DirectX graphics API, making the games themselves Windows-only. Yes, they can be rewritten to use OpenGL instead, but this would require substantial effort -- Valve would have the resources to do this with their own titles, but some of the other publishers on Steam may be of the opinion that it's not worth the effort.
This is as close to a perfect example as one can get as to why vendor lock-in is a bad thing. Arguably, the DirectX lock-in is probably why gaming on OS X hasn't really taken off either.
Still, this move by Valve could well be the snowball that sets off the avalanche...
I don't think it's possible to understate how much of a monumental task this is. Not just for Valve, but for everyone with an interest in the Linux world.
If Valve wants this to succeed, they'll need to do more than just port their games and Steam to the platform. They'll need to really get the likes of AMD and nVidia on board to get better driver support, they'll need to convince the big publishers that it's worth taking the time to port their games and find some way to make WINE and its equivalents run at nearly native speed for the ones that can't be easily ported for whatever reason.
Then you have to deal with all the old DRM schemes that still exist and throw a fit even on newer versions of Windows, never mind a completely different OS. SecuROM rootkits? Yeah, good luck with that.
Still, for all the issues, all the potential pitfalls I really do wish Valve the best of luck with this as it can only be a good thing for everyone. Well, everyone except Microsoft maybe.
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
Even if games was a major factor in holding Linux back, just making Steam available is not going to fix that.
Steam was launched for Mac two years ago, but other than Valve's own games the only top game that has been made available is Civilization V. Some indie games, sure, and Blizzard's games are available outside Steam, but all the other games are just as absent as they were before Steam was ported.
Ohhhhhmmmm.... This statement of peace and unity has been repeated as a mantra through out computing history...Ohhhhhmmmm.... Sidartha Torvalds will guide us by his warm light.... Ohhhhmmmm.....
I think this is a Microsoft strategy to take control more and become a PC OEM theselves like Apple. I think they're success will be limited. If I were a PC OEM, I would be real concerned by The Surface and Xbox.
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
Considering how few games there are for Linux on Steam right now, how about you stop talking and start porting?
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
When do normal people at home open office documents? I never have the need or the desire. You do? Well, that says a lot about you that at home on your game machine, you have a burning desire for some edge case document formatting or love that challenge of creating a truly disastrous spreadsheet.
For most people, wordpad is more then enough. The proof? That so few computers are sold with Office installed.
Why don't you try another one? How about CAD software? Financial software?
Come on, surely you can come up with something better then Office for software people don't use on game machines at home?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
for the first time, or at all, BECAUSE of games? I know I did. I know that they taught me lots of things - especially even just programming very rudimentary games on the apple deuce in 7th and 8th grade. That gave me a huge appreciation for computers, what they can do, and what a good product looks like. My text based zork type games were very easy to write, however the pixelized boxing game (that I was creating with the wrong process) took many many lines of code and required mass critical thinking.
And I can relate this to what was supposed to be a huge blockbuster, although I don't know if their programmers are just new, inexperienced, or just don't know what a good game is - or, they were told to dumb it down as the company wanted an incoming stream of income like they had with their graphical chat room (WoW).
I just posted this on my blog...
Steam on Linux is a strategic move for Valve. They have enjoyed success on the Windows and Mac platforms for years and now they have recently announced that the penguin crowd will get to enjoy the games (no, not the Olymic ones).
Why am I even bothering to point this out? Windows 8 is lurking, that's why.. and Gabe Newell, the boss at Valve, knows it. Speaking at the recent Casual Connect conference in Seattle, Gabe expressed his concerns and criticisms of Windows 8 and in particularly the new Windows Store.
Why?
Because in order to make the Windows Store a success, Microsoft needs to block the competition, just like Apple does with its App/Mac stores. As Steam is an online store itself for gamers, this is where its going to hurt Valve as potentially, no more Steam on Windows.
Microsoft could very well only have games that link to its own XBox system. This makes sense as a business and to up-sell to existing Windows customers.
Gabe Newell worked at Microsoft for 13 years before he started up Valve, and its here where they have recently embraced the penguins as a "hedging strategy" to further gain customers. He is worried that potentially losing the Windows customer base will cause lasting damage to their own customer base. I'm sure he thought that when he said "Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space."
Now think about this...
Steam has an average of 4 million users connected at any given time.
Windows has an average desktop market share of, say 80%. That's 3 million gamers.
Now suddenly, Steam is no longer available on Windows, but it is on Linux.
Will those gamers switch? Or even try?
Some will move to a console, some to a Mac. But some, lets say a optimistic 30% or 1 million of those start using Linux, just for Steam? That's a lot.
The Year Of the Linux Desktop? No seriously... stop laughing, it may happen.
[citation needed]
I'm not questioning the value of more Linux support for games as a hedge against problems on other platforms, but I don't understand *why* he thinks Windows 8 is going to be a catastrophe in the way that he says. Sure, I can guess some reasons and I have my own opinion, but what were Gabe's reasons? There is *NOTHING* in the article about it. Zero.
How unfulfilling.
Meh. We hear the old refrain every time Microsoft comes out with a new version of Windows. "It's the worst thing ever.". "People will be migrating to OSX/Linux/whatever in droves." The sad fact is that businesses and IT are so heavily invested in the Windows ecosystem that they have no choice but to eventually upgrade. Think of all the specialized apps out there on the Windows platform: banking apps, auto shop diagnostic apps, imaging apps, etc. Even if developers want to switch to another OS, how are they going to migrate their users? Tell them they have to throw out their PCs and buy Macs? Or wipe their drives and set up an Ubuntu partition?
I was well aware of Valve, but not of who this guy is. Now that he picked up a few big headlines in traditional "xyz is doomed" style, I imagine he has a bit more Klout points. Congratulations Gabe.
Since Windows Store comes installed with Windows 8, who's gonna be interested in publish a game with Steam? Nobody.
Sounds to me like someone isn't a big fan of 'Windows Store' http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/apps. Microsoft coming out with their own app store was only a matter of when. Now that it has a release date, Valve is looking a little scared.
Do he now!
Dark Reflection
The core libraries for linux systems can be compiled on a variety of processing architectures. Most importantly the arm and x86. If valve works at a level above the very specific hardware integration of these architectures, their application will be easily portable to all sorts of linux based devices. Such as linux based set-top boxes, kiosks, inexpensive open source handhelds and gaming systems (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console), android cell phones, tablets, and even built in tv OSes. Windows pigeon holes valve into predominantly pc/laptop market, while embedded linux can run on virtually anything(http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.%20Linux%20on%208bit). Kidding aside, i was able to port all libraries and my work which was written in highly optimized c, to run on an raspi (arm) from having been written for a standard x86 and cuda implementation with minimal effort. Hope nvidia/amd/opencl work on letting us get at those multicore gpus soon though, be a shame to let all that number crunching go to waste.
... is DRIVERS!!! Good luck getting real open source drivers out of Nvidia, ATI/AMD, and Intel for their graphics hardware.
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
Besides fail to edit this jibberish: "Some Linux users think that this is a win-win situation for Linux users as it will brings good game titles on the Linux system that haven't been there and it will protect steam business model from both Apple and Microsoft."
I understand that English is a living language, but I object to changes arising merely from repeated errors.
I've long wondered why game companies don't simply include a little, hidden linux-distro as part of the their game installation. So to maximize computer resources and minimize compatibility issues with various OS's, they always boot into their own OS before loading the game. It would be a little inconvenient for gamers in that they would need to reboot to load a game, but it might solve a lot of headaches and improve performance.
The problem for Valve is that Windows 8 is going down the app store route, and the main point of Steam is really to be an easy download and auto-update platform for games. Sure, Steam does other things too, but if it weren't for the distribution channel (which is the only distribution channel for Valve's own big name games) I don't really believe anyone would stick with it just for the minor perks. This leaves only two possibilities:
1. Steam has a powerful lock-in. In this case, a lot of people who have spent a lot of money with them based basically on trust are about to have their faith questioned. Since Steam's standards terms and conditions are a joke as far as guaranteeing anything to anyone but themselves, this leaves two variations:
1a. They will do right by their customers at almost any price, assuming this is even possible with whatever technical and commercial infrastructure MS adopts to go with Windows 8. This might save their reputation and business model, but would surely hurt Valve's bottom line significantly.
1b. They can't or won't pay that price and customers who move to Windows 8 will suffer a worse user experience, limited ability to buy new games, or in the worst case lose access to the existing library they've already paid for. In any case, Steam will take a huge PR hit that will at best severely damage Valve's credibility.
2. Steam's lock-in isn't that powerful. In this case, Microsoft can beat them at their own game (no pun intended) and outright steal their business.
There are exactly zero outcomes in there that are positive for Steam, and some represent an existential threat.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I have wondered for years why game-makers haven't already started working on writing games for Linux so that they can sell games that boot directly to the game on any system.
To me it seems so obvious. Now you don't have to worry about which version of what a user has on their computer and the user doesn't need to install the game.
Why hasn't this already been done?
this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice
Steam is an appstore, Windows 8 too.
Yep, it's a catastrophe. For Steam.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I think, I think, I think, I think.... that's quality business decision making there, where is the market research? Oh yeah, there isn't any because no one has seen the final RTM of Windows 8.... This has nothing to do with Windows 8 which bring superior graphics performance via DirectX 11.1 which will be fantastic for game developers. It has everything to do with using Linux for the upcoming Steam console and bullying/scaring game developers away from Windows so they can offer exclusive games on their console.. just like Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo try to do on their consoles.
Windows 8 App Store is a catastrophe for Valve business model.
I think Steam is the perfect application to transfer to the 'Metro' style interface...
Two possibilities:
Wine has an implementation of DirectX 9 (and a lot of other Windows APIs). It can either be used as an emulator (use it to run windows .EXE files), or you can compile code against it to produce unix native binaries (Write code using microsoft APIs, but get a Linux ELF as an output).
The Gallium3D driver infrastructure (as used by most opensource drivers on Linux - the official Intel, the AMD-helped, and reverse engineered for Nvidia hardware) is modular. There is a 3D DirectX 10/11 front end written for it.
This could be a starting points for providing DirectX APIs for games on Steam.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I really wish people would look objectively at windows 8 and stop just repeating the things others have said.
Everyone keeps saying it's enormously different, but here's the truth, other than a ton of reported efficiency improvements under the covers, there's one change that everyone is up in arms about:
The start menu was replaced. Oooo scaarrry... That's the only UI change. Just one, and somehow people act like this OS is so far removed from windows as we know it.
Here's the truth: If you don't think someone is going to have a program out that behaves identical to the current start menu right when windows 8 comes out, you're fooling yourself. It will probably even be better as it will likely be open source and community driven giving even greater customization if you want. Moreover, half of you play around in different window managers whenever you feel like which causes major UI changes. So slashdotters are the last ones that should be griping. Heck, by creating a simple folder menu on your task bar that points to your desktop or wherever else you keep your shortcuts (there's probably still a start menu folder you could just point it at) you can just recreate the same behavior you're used to.
Now the other side of the truth: For non-technical folks like us who aren't extremely tied to their start menu and probably find the menu driven behavior less preferable to their desktop's behavior for choosing items (as icon driven interfaces have by apple been shown to be more usable by the masses), the new start menu is likely quite preferable.
Given that technical folks like us will adjust almost immediately, and chances are the general population will by my wager like the new behavior more (so long as they can avoid their perceptions being tainted by the constant microsoft-is-for-idiots meme), I am going to go out on a limb and say Windows 8 will probably be an extremely successful operating system. There is now one caveat however; there are a fairly significant amount of changes under the covers I am to understand, so as long as they haven't compromised compatibility and stability, I think they'll be in great standing. I suppose only other caveat: The javascript on the desktop as applications approach may result in some horrible programs written for windows 8 that taints people's view of the overall OS.
Now quit spewing what everyone (including me) says, and go read about/try windows 8 yourselves. And longer than just opening the start menu to shout "NO!" and uninstalling it like so many windows->linux converts do. As for the claims of "Shill!", good for you; you are capable of identifying all somewhat positive statements about a thing as being clearly false marketing. Hypocrite, you probably said something good about yourself once. Sucker.
Targeting a platform with 2% market share where the culture doesn't like paying for software is not a good business strategy.
Things like have a crappy interface and closed ecosystem is not going to stop game developers. Having a small market share and few paying customers will.
They are just promoting Linux because they are secretly developing a Linux Gaming Console.... :D
You want to see a catastrophe? Look at sound in Linux. Pulse was created to fix the sound problems, except for the fact that Pulse is terrible too. It presents a whole new set of problems and limitations.
The X doesn't deliver a very good experience either. I'm really hoping Wayland is the answer. It can't get here soon enough.
There are a lot of games using 3rd party engines.
Valve's own games mostly use the Source engine - which already has an OpenGL backend and is in the process of beinge ported to Linux.
If the engine has a Linux port, that means that the developer could easily make a Linux port of their game.
Also: Given that DirectX exists only on Windows PCs and X-Box, and that OpenGL runs on pretty much everything else (Macs, Linux PCs, other gaming consoles, pretty much any modern smartphone/tablet, other devices....) you would be surprise of how many games and engines *also* have an OpenGL back-end, just to be able to tap into the juicy Mac/iDevice/Android markets.
Last but not least: there are also other APIs popular around. SDL is popular in the indie/homebrew world. I can bet that some of the "2$" games on steam are using it.
So the "Windows games use a Microsoft-only API" isn't that much a problem as some might believe.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I am so pleased to see that today's generation of young gamers are more accepting of linux that this can be a possibility. Id Software tried just over 20 years ago with distribution via lokigames.com but the project failed due to lack of support to PAY for a linux game at the time and the over production of product that left lokigames to go bankrupt. Hopefully Valve has a better business plan. ***SPOILER ALERT*** I have a feeling they do.
If you're successful in marketing a software product built on a proprietary platform, you can expect the proprietor of that platform to attempt a takeover of your market, at some point. If you build on an open platform and are successful, you'll quite possibly have competition sooner, but it will likely be fair competition.
Having used a touchscreen computer (the DTI TouchCom II) as early as 1984, the chief problem with touch screens has always been that your finger gets in the way, and leaves smudges. A tablet or mouse pointer can be small, can even be a hollow "target" pointer, and does not leave greasy prints all over your display. Not to mention, the tactile feedback of an actual keyboard, and a mouse with real buttons, is a huge part of the user experience.
And they'll be reluctant to do that. They Sell Windows boxes largely because Windows is a standard OS that's easy for users and it lets them offload a good chunk of their support costs. Dell doesn't want to help you unfuck your Linux system because too much of the support and warranty costs would fall on Dell.
If they have to go support absolutely any possible Linux distribution out there (including the custom crazy wackos with Gentoo and the like), yup. Maybe.
But if their "Linux machines" means a specific distribution (probably Ubuntu) installed with a specific set of default applications, using the OEM's 3rd party repository for drivers that aren't in mainstream linux yet. Wel... in this case the situation isn't much more complicated than supporting Windows.
(Just expect that most help tips for unfucking the system will be "please re-install the Linux root using the USB install stick which came with your hardware", just like currently most Windows unfucking is "please use the repair function of the DVD recovery that your PC burned on it first run")
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The problems with this idea seem to outmatch the idea. (Not that I'm against it.)
1. API's. Linux is a sea of APIs and they shift like the wind. In the area of drivers, kernel, gfx api's, - its frankly not something I expect Steam to navigate easily.
In windows a lot of development was based on OpenGL, DirectX. OpenGL is certainly doable in Linux, but good luck in having it work in an expectable way - I say that given Intel, ATI, Nvidia drivers..
2. I think it can only happen if someone like steam and perhaps its partners build and define and work with OpenGL, and a directX alike environment. And early on I think to even think about making this work, it would probably need to be a platform idea where steam get hardware makers to make a box that has some fundamental hardware they and their user base would not have to fight. A steambox? Sure. And others could make their hardware 'steambox' ready by supplying hardware that fitted this working model. An early stab would seem to me to require Nvidia - as I think their closed source drivers are the only drivers *today* that would be viable.
3. Other areas like sound and multimedia are just as messy in Linux. Don't see any other way than Steam and partners getting involved in some way to keep some stuff defined.
4. Seems like a good basis to campaign for an open game/source standard.
We`re all equal
and that's the impression one gets from reading Linux-related news sites.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
It ameliorates the chicken-egg problem Linux suffers from:
#1 Missing out on users because there are no games
#2 No games are being made because there are no users
GOTO #1
So seeing Gabe trying to break this cycle by making sure Intel and NVIDIA are on board with his idea is a good first step, this could lead to more and better games, which then could attract more users, developers and publishers to the platform. These events could on their turn entice hardware vendors to upgrade their drivers even more etc. I hope Canonical is working very closely with them, as this surely is no easy feat to pull off
IMO it's extremely anti-competitive and just begging for a lawsuit which could portentially catch Apple, Microsoft and Google in its crosshairs. Doubtless they'd all proclaim their OS is "open", but at the same time if they install their own store by default, that is hardly fair at all. I can see all being compelled to offer consumers something similar to a browser chooser which lets them pick the store they want.
Then there's Windows RT where there won't be a choice AT ALL. Steam isn't even an option on such a device. Even if Valve or its publishers recompiled some games to run on ARM they wouldn't be able to install them because the store wouldn't let them. If Steam appears on Windows RT at all it will likely be in some emasculated form where you can't actually buy or install anything, just look at your achievements and stuff.
I suppose therefore from their standpoint it makes sense to widen their deploy base but equally it could just be a power play to give them some leverage to negotiate themselves a prime position in Windows. It may well be that in return the Linux support gets dropped or de prioritized.
They'll need to really get the likes of AMD and nVidia on board to get better driver support
Already underway. For example, they don't only look for linux game developpers to hire, they are also looking for people with kernel and drivers experience.
Spend some time on Linux-related news sites like Phoronix.
They'll need to convince the big publishers that it's worth taking the time to port their games
The "taking the time" won't be such a huge deal if the game engine can already run on Linux.
- Valve are porting Source to Linux (and as they already have an OpenGL back-end on their Mac version, it's not that much difficult) (specially since employee have already been fooling with Linux for some time).
- Lots of other 3rd party engines have Linux ports.
For games using these engines, porting to Linux won't be that much difficult. And once the Linux market is "seeded" with Valves own games (and the indie games already having a Linux port, like most of the Humble Bundle games) that nascent market could be an incentive to make the "not-so-difficult" port.
Now, for games with their own custom DirectX-only engines without even an OpenGL backend: yup for them it's going to be more difficult, and Valve needs to find a way to persuade them to make the jump.
and find some way to make WINE and its equivalents run at nearly native speed for the ones that can't be easily ported for whatever reason.
Then you have to deal with all the old DRM schemes that still exist and throw a fit even on newer versions of Windows, never mind a completely different OS. SecuROM rootkits? Yeah, good luck with that.
Still, for all the issues, all the potential pitfalls I really do wish Valve the best of luck with this as it can only be a good thing for everyone. Well, everyone except Microsoft maybe.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The sad fact is that businesses and IT are so heavily invested in the Windows ecosystem that they have no choice but to eventually upgrade.
Yup, but were not speaking about the work place here. We're speaking about the machine at home on which you play games.
It has nothing to do with the horrible IE6-only ActiveX ASP/IIS monstruosity in which your workplace is entangled and which is forcing your company to still pay the microsoft tax and reluctantly submit to whatever upgrade Redmond forces upon them once they pull the plug on the support of the previous favourite of the IT department.
It's not about the "Year of the Linux Desktop" at your workplace (that is what the efforts to migrate to Linux and LibreOffirce in european public agencies are).
It's about bringing this Linux Desktop on your gaming machine at home.
(Or on your laptop/netbook while on vacations).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
He's right in many more ways than one. Hedging his bets against a future in which Microsoft is his biggest rival is only one reason for doing this. The other big reason is simply to expand the gaming market, and to lead it.
It's no secret that the Linux world is full of endearing geeks and nerds who love to play video games --- there could hardly be a bigger truism! And yet they are totally under-served on their favorite platform, and frequently have to run a Windows box for the sole reason of being able to play their games. That presents an obvious business opportunity.
By supplying Linux gamers with good games on their favorite platform, not only is he expanding his customer base to a whole new audience of Linux-only gamers, but is also making it possible for Linux gamers to avoid running a Windows box at all. And that can remove one of his rivals from the competition entirely. It would be a move of genius.
What's more, if Linux gaming takes off bigtime (his company certainly has every opportunity to make that happen), then he will be the leader in a new gaming frontier, and everyone else will be playing catchup. That is worth a gamble all by itself, and it's not even a high-risk venture.
I think Gabe's business nose can sense a big opportunity here, a huge and almost unexploited market that he can make his own, while at the same time safeguarding his future against Microsoft.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
For all the crap people talk about this guy (and the crap he says himself). If this tactic actually pays of, he will single-handedly push Linux forward perhaps creating an entirely new industry for Linux.
This will be very interesting to see happen.
Is that Newell originally talked to MS about doing some kind of digital distribution (he used to work for them) and they were interested, so Valve developed their own thing.
So he was fine with MS being the DD store owner back in the day, before he made bank on it, now he's worried. Sorry Gabe, I don't care if you won't be quite as rich, that isn't a disaster.
Now I'd be worried if the Windows store goes on to a monopoly status, if it becomes the One True Way(tm) to buy stuff for Windows. However if it competes with Steam, I see that as good because frankly I'm just as worried about Steam becoming the One Service to Rule Them All.
Steam is pretty well written, easy to use, and has great deals. However it is all about lock-in. For example they'll let companies use their Steamworks protection for free... but then the game REQUIRES Steam to be installed and running to be playable. Even if you buy a Steamworks game from another DD service like Impulse or Amazon, it'll require Steam. Also if you sell a game on Steam, you have to sell all DLC through Steam as well (that's why some things like Minecraft never came to Steam) you can't sell it on your own site.
Thus I'm not sad to see a big competitor to it. Competition keeps services honest. If there's many places to go for your game DD needs, then they'd better be good or you'll go elsewhere. If one becomes the one and only service, then they could well start screwing you.
Windows 8 catastrophic - Sure. Games coming to linux - I hope so. Steam coming to linux - Don't care, i'd rather have the games via the ubuntu store. Steam only has some games you can't buy anywhere else, but for the rest it's just some drm that keeps track of what games you play.
He believes what he says. And it's true. Why is that a scary thing?
... is DRIVERS!!! Good luck getting real open source drivers out of Nvidia, ATI/AMD, and Intel for their graphics hardware.
Intel - pure real opensource:
Their official driver *IS* real open source. Intel has paid Tungsten graphics (now part of the VMWare people) to develop their Linux drivers as opensource. And this are the guy who are driving most innovation on the linux graphics front (KMS, GEM/TTM, Gallium3D, etc.) They have a good performance. The only limitation is that the current Gallium3D stack has only an OpenGL 3.0 front end (missing more recent 3.x and the whole 4.x family).
AMD - opensource supporter:
- They have an official closed source driver for Linux which is somewhat acceptable. The situation has much improved over the last few years (It's okay for games, even the latest generation and is similar in performance to the Windows version - well it's actually a port of the same Catalyst code base).
- The actively support real open source "radeon" drivers: They release specs (well at a very slow speed as it has to get approved for release from the legal department but still) and even some pieces of example code. They even pay for it (a couple of the paid-for developers working on open source drivers are on AMD's own payroll). For older hardware (for which AMD has dropped support in the latest catalyst) its even the officially recommended drivers by AMD themselves.
Performance varies (on older hardware, it's as good as the closed source, on newer hardware it's slower. The latest generation still missing for now, because the hardware underneath changed radically, but work on the "radeonsi" driver is underway thanks to specs from AMD) but its usable. Again limited on API support.
AMD have pledged to better take open-source into account in future designs. And over time the process is getting more streamlined and faster. It's not as good as Intel's opensource software, but they are definitely heading in a good direction.
Nvidia - blacksheep:
- They only have an official closed source driver for Linux. Also, they don't play nicely with kernel developers, preferring to things their own way instead of trying to collaborate with kernel development and leveraging facilities existing in Linux and in the kernel. They just prefer porting their own code base. As a result of this, some technologies just plain don't work on Linux or require hacks by 3rd party developers (the whole Optimus debacle). And the situation with embed Tegra is even worse. Hence the big "Fuck You!" from Linux Torvalds. But as it is a port of their common code base, performance is good.
- The real open source "Nouveau" driver is entirely a separate 3rd party project done exclusively by reverse engineering. Support and performance is random (depends on which hardware the developers could test it on. Mid-range not-too-old cards are the best bet because that's what the most people are running and thus the most tested hardware). As Nvidia doesn't publish neither specs nor code, support for latest generations is always lagging behind. Given the situation it's a miracle what the Nouveau developers have managed to achieve. And it's currently reached the state where it can be stable enough to work as a out-of-the-box opensource support for a good part of Nvidia hardware, enough to provide desktop compositing, etc. Gallium3D front-end limitation apply too.
in short:
there are opensource drivers out there, the situation is even developing nicely for Intel and AMD.
Valve can even help further by throwing developers at the problems
(and according to some linux-related news site, they are: they are not only hiring Linux game developers, they are also interested in developers with kernel/driver knowledge).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
If Gabe realized how much of a killing they could make with a steam-powered console that included kb/mouse/joystick, and a standardized set of hardware, they'd do it and become a HUGE competitive fore in the console market.
Done right, given Valve has a library of titles nobody else can touch right now, Valve could put the PS3 and 360 on their asses.
Hey Gabe, let's get a Project Sauna going!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
cooperate with the people at Codeweavers for the Windows games that can't/won't port to Linux native games.
Everyone will just skip it like ME and Vista and MS will rush out a new OS that doesn't suck so hard once they realize how bad they fucked up. This isn't the first time MS has given birth to a stillborn and then tried to convince us with the Dead Parrot sketch.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I thought the problem was that direct3d does sound too but OpenGL does not. Hence the attractiveness to developers.
Reliance on direct3d seems a huge obstacle to overcome.
I really don't see wine or trying to wrap these things in some sort of VM working out too well. Especially for hardcore gamers that have 100s of steam games. They probably have 3k+ gaming machines that while the drivers are possibly there to support their super machine, the VMs will bottleneck the whole thing. Driver support will need to step up too though. I need to be able to control the fans on my graphics cards. Maybe MSI afterburner could write a port too.
While the "chat client" etc features are nice, they aren't spectacular.
However, being able to easily find my friends in-game, that's great. Remember the old days when *every* game had its own lobby. You had to find create a game, tell your friends the game name (and/or password), kick out the trolls repeated while "slow friend X" tries to join, etc.
Annnd the network issues. 3 people could join but one could not connect.
Or they had to know your IP address.
Or you had to NAT a bunch of crap on your router.
One thing I'm *very* happy with steam for is not having to deal with that shit anymore.
Which is why every conversation you have involves you making up what everyone else has said so you don't have to think about what they actually said.
In spite of the UI of Windows 8 that takes some getting used to and my verdict is till in deciding if I like it, Windows 8 is Windows as usual.
The desktop still exists in the background, which can run Steam and install any of the "closed ecosystem" provided by Valve. I mean, isn't this at the heart of what Valve does these days? Valve stopped making video games (I mean really one new game every 5 years is not a game development company), and instead promoted a platform which largely whores the Valve gaming engine. Really Gabe, seriously, what is your definition of a closed ecosystem?
Gabe doesn't like the idea of other people selling games on other closed ecosystems, that is all he is shooting his mouth off about. He dissed the PS3 and Xbox 360 because of their game stores and didn't want to ship Valve games using some other companies licensing scheme. The idea of Microsoft selling games on the App Store goes against Gabe's business plan of selling Windows games on the Valve platform. But why no outrage over Apple and their walled garden approach to iOS and OS X? Because its an easy win to bitch about Windows and not about Apple these days.
So fine Gabe, if you want to port Steam to Linux because its the last platform you can't dominate, go ahead. Sony fucked you, Nintendo fucked you, Google fucked you, Apple fucked you, Microsoft fucked you, so why not go to Linux. Just don't be surprised when the banks run dry because people on Linux don't actually like to PAY for anything. A game store on Linux is like asking people to pay for air.
And before you go running off your mouth again take a good hard look at your own company and realize you are doing NOTHING different then everyone else, you are just as much as a greedy schmuck as every other CEO, just too smug to accept it.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
True, but if they (as rumoured) make a linux-based console - with better licensing terms than the MS/Sony/Nintendo consoles - then that might make a fairly large blog on the radar...
so that they can sell games that boot directly to the game on any system
Any system with compatible hardware.
Don't get me wrong, I've mangled together a PXE that will load in the appropriate accelerated ATI/nVidia/Intel driver for most hardware I've been able to throw at it, but anything newer than my kernel still isn't going to work. That includes graphics cards, ethernet/wifi, soundcards, and a whole schwack of other things.
Of course 9x/XP don't work on most modern hardware either, and it's hit-and-miss playing old xBox games on a 360... but PC hardware does tend to be rather diverse and can change rather suddenly.
Perhaps if it was a bootable flash device instead it could at least be updated.
Yep Windows 95 was a huge leap forward, it was almost as good as the 1985 Amiga OS.
In the 20 years prior to the K&M control method I used a joystick rarely - it was almost exclusively the keyboard (QAOPM) on the 8bit machines I owned. Moving from those machines, I had a brief play with 16bits (Amiga, Megadrive)
What did player 2 use on such machines, especially before home Internet access became common?
Not all games are FPS or RTS. Would you rather buy a separate gaming PC and separate copy of each game for each member of your household or one machine that can be used by two to four players at once, holding gamepads and looking at one large screen?
I really wife Valve would stop complaining about having competition, and instead work on finishing the Half Life 2 series. After they have finished this, then they can complain all they want, and I might even listen.
Am so tired of the bad business model meme, be it media studios or developers hiding behind the curtain of their own failings and decrying publicly how the other is to blame for their own poor decision making... If I am to understand this correctly Steam Valve carries roughly 1,800 games, they don't write the games, they distribute them. Windows 8 with Microsoft's Store is a threat to Steam Valve's business model, the actual technology of Windows 8 isn't, it's just the opposite. Windows 8 does more for games, better utilizes memory, utilizes GPU, CPU, APU out of the box....
This is about Valve's fear of Microsoft's Store becoming a huge success and undermining Steam Valve's limited business model.
Amazon has a store and downloads. Apple has a store and downloads. EA has a store and downloads. Microsoft has a store and downloads. Sony has a store and downloads, et. et...
Steam Valve which doesn't make the actual games is just a store. Their business model is a solution looking for a problem to solve in an industry already filled with solutions. Their only market opportunity is to move to Linux that doesn't already have a solution and that's the bottom line here... Steam Valve is like the media studios trying to hold on to outdated business models... the market is moving forward anyway...
I run steam on Windows 8, and all the games work just fine. So I'm not sure what this catastrophe is supposed to be other then he doesn't like the look.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Valve just wants to in order to earn them more geek cred. Because lets face it, if gabe wasnt so nerdy and forthwright with it they would be as popular as they are with gamers and programmers which fuel their bank accounts. Valve wants to tap further into the nerd crowd by touting linux so much because he knows he has dug about as far into the pc crowd as he can with steam, so now he is going after a new demographic for more sales while at the same getting more geek credit.
MS is just making windows 8 to try and crack into the tablet market. It wont affect desktop users at all. It will be like vista where if laptop and desktop folks dont like it dealers will offer to ship them with windows 7 installed instead and eventually windows 8 will be replaced with something better and all the laptop/desktop people will forget 8 ever existed.
Just like vista was supposed to be so shitty it would ruin pc's but it didnt because word of mouth spread so fast that even people who had no idea of what vista was avoided it and stuck with windows xp. Gabe acts like he thinks everyone on the planet will be forced to use windows 8 and every single copy of 7 will be destroyed so that only 8 will exist and that there will be a mass exodus from the pc market.
Gabe is a smart man to be sure and I admire his intelligence and ambition but he thinks way to highly of himself and is a bit short sighted because of it. This is afterall the man who literally spent years and years hating on sony constantly every time he got a chance because sony was cool to hate for awhile but soon as that faded he was on stage live with a sony rep practically sucking sonys dick and praising them because he just goes with where the wind blows and tries to ride popular opinion. Whats worse is this is the guy who has legions of blind zealot fans that will defend him and praise him without question and think he and valve can do no wrong.
I've been using Win8 Release Preview for the past month, and I definitely understand the initial, visceral reaction from many critical of the new UI. However, I've discovered since then that it's nowhere near as bad as people say. In fact, I find navigation to be quite easy. First, the 8 major apps I use are all pinned to the Task Bar. I almost never have to leave the desktop. When I do need to run another app, switching to the start screen and typing the app's name is actually pretty quick. Jarring, yes. I don't like the full context switch, but it's not really time consuming.
The performance improvements are very tangible. The desktop feels quicker, and Metro apps are very fluid. They are also very BUGGY. In fact, there are a LOT of glitches that I hope Microsoft works out before release. Mail is abysmal, and given that Thunderbird is all but being retired, the lack of a great mail client is a major red flag for me. Again, hope Microsoft steps up to the plate and fixes Mail. Music is also abysmal, so I run iTunes (which is 5% less abysmal, but hey).
What I find interesting is that the side-by-side view of a Metro app with the Desktop is actually pretty useful. It kind of fits the 75% working, 25% dicking around model pretty well. The major problem here is that docking IE on the side is all but useless. What they really need to do is have it act like a *mobile* browser in that mode.
Overall, some major issues with it, but I find the overall model to be not bad at all.
At best it's just Win7 with a new fancy touch homescreen. The old desktop is still there. And the upgrade price is very good especially for those with XP or Vista.
I don't care if Win8 does come with a Microsoft Store, I'll still go to Steam for games. Unless MS can do a LOT better job than they did with Games for Windows Live!!!!!11!!11!!!
my co-worker's step-mother makes $69/hr on the computer. She has been out of work for 6 months but last month her income was $17799 just working on the computer for a few hours. Read more on this site http://snurl.com/24g56wd
Valve supporting all their new games, starting with HL3, on Linux would be my killer app to ditch Windows entirely.
Why is Valve pushing for standards and ports instead of hardware?
The problem with the SteamBox, as people like to call the idea, is that PC gamers aren't console gamers. If a PC user wanted to have a console, they already would. What makes you think PC gamers want to switch to a console?
Some people are PC gamers because they:
1. already need a PC and want to save money.
2. like the controls better.
3. enjoy all the cheap games.
4. prefer MMOs or casual games.
Bringing in a new console is just another console. It wont matter whether it runs Linux, Windows, NetBSD, or DOS 6.22. They all look the same to the end user. They are a proprietary, closed system with limited hardware, software, and controls. You can't use a console for productivity, you can't upgrade the hardware, and your boss wont let you connect it to the corporate VPN to do some remote configurations.
The alternative to the big two operating systems is a Linux PC...except there are tons of those too. So what to do now? Have a Linux gaming standard that Linux distributions and hardware can become certified in, gaining the trust of the users that need to know their games will work outside of Windows or OSX.
So there it is, a Linux gaming standard backed up by a big gaming company. QED.
It's funny that your so-called "rectangle" suddenly found its way to every other competitor after the iPhone/iPad release!
Screw your silly nonsense about this being a "shape".
Steams "buisness model" is also a catastrophe. I thik Gabes problem is that he is getting a competitor in W8. Now Gabe and Steam is all alone in the games distribution racket in Windows, sucking revenue from other smaller software companies because Steam is the only way the can reach the market.
I have more than 200 games in steam, so its not like I dont use them. I also have tons of computers... when I have someone over we can't play at the same time, even if we want to play different games! I love it when im in a hotel playing and I get kicked out because my GF started a different game on my computer at home... (and don't say "offline", that is just a weak patch)
Gabe is only saying this because Win8 will feature a "Windows Marketplace". And, unlike iOS, it's going to also be a desktop operating system, and will thus be in DIRECT competition with Valve's Steam digital distribution service.
I like Steam, and will keep using it, but let's be honest, Gabe is only trying to slam an unreleased product from Microsoft because a core feature of it will be competing against his business.
I'll wait for credible people to talk about Win8 or, even better, I'll try it out for myself, because there's no shortage of MS haters who will say anything to attack MS, no matter how untrue it is (as was clearly proven by Windows Mojave, which was SO MUCH BETTER than Win Vista!).
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Explains the sharp corners of Microsoft...
Could 2013 be the year for Linux on the desktop?
MS is the Anti-Star Trek.
Odd Number Star Trek Movies: Bad
Even Number Star Trek Movies: Good
Odd releases of Windows: Good-ish (grading on a curve only against other versions of MS Windows)
Even releases of Windows: God awful
(Assuming you count Windows 95 and Windows 98 as one release, which is more or less the case since Windows 98 was essentially Windows 95 with better USB support.)
The baby boomers are getting older and they aren't playing games. The younger gamers are getting older although haven't stopped playing. I'm not convinced the PC is the gaming center of the universe as once might have been the case.
Games for Linux? Who cares.
Unless they are free (charge me, but don't release under a proprietary license) I could care less.
Newell was saying windows 8 is a trainwreck because Microsoft is closing the ecosystem down so that you need to use their app store to get anything sold. That the PC becomes a loss leader for the app store, is what will push OEMs out of the business. For Valve/Steam, it is the classic case where someone does something for a while and makes a reasonable living until MS notices and they move in and squeeze everyone else out. Whether windows 8 works well or sells well is completely beside Newell's point. He is a third party app store, who figures MS has him in his sights, even though it is really just collateral damage in it's competition with Apple. He's right.
If you were in Valve's position, that is their entire business is 100% dependent on microsoft, wouldn't you want to expand into areas which weren't controlled by ms? Having all your eggs in one basket is never a good situation to be in.
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I hate having to crawl back to Windows to run tax software, but the alternatives are worse. I've tried Wine, but every time there's been some problem. I refuse to use web based tax preparation. I do NOT want my tax info sitting on some 3rd party web server.
Also hate having to use tax software from private vendors. They jerk you around with free but crippled versions you can upgrade. Tax should be simpler to figure out. I could do it by hand, but then the vendors have another gotcha: Can't use electronic filing.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Dot com crash.
Loki was on track with their business plan but their investors went away.
OK, just waiting for the console that boots linux directly to steam now.
YAY!
oldhack: "Security is a waste of money until shit hits the fan. 5 minutes later, it becomes waste of money again. "
I hereby patent the virtual keyboard being a system where a computer device throws signal around it, be sonar radar photovolic photons or electromagnetic fields or similar, and detects changes in that field to interpret user actions such as keyboard, mouse and other UI actions.
I hereby claim all IP in relation to this idea including all potential implementations as they apply to desktop and mobile computing devices.
Open the engine source, sell the art/music/map/skins/other data packages.
If the engine source is open, how should the developer discourage users from casually infringing copyright by spreading copies of the non-free "art/music/map/skins/other data packages" through file sharing technologies?
Reap the benefits of not having to support your code on a Linux distro.
I seem to remember that some popular GNU/Linux distributions' primary repositories will not accept a package that relies on a non-free data package.
Please forgive the naysaying; I'm just trying to ask the questions that an investor in such a project would likely ask.
As long as I can install on Fedora and the games will run under the KDE desktop.
I doubt it!
When a company makes an error, they have teams of people standing by to rectify the error. Slashdot does not. This is one of thousands of posts that gives completely incorrect information. There are other technical blogs and I will very soon stop ready slashdot if they do not give at least a shred of sanity to posts.
All they have to do is write support for the most basic parts of a computer everyone uses- video cards and input devices.
I don't understand this. An enormous amount of development goes into all the various Linuii, yet they do not support very many of the devices through which people USE their computers. This should always be have been job #1. I don't use the OS or windowing system or the windowing system's graphics details the way I USE my Logitech or Kensington trackball's driver software which gives me access to more than just three measly buttons.... I am sure people with other input devices have their own list of stuff Linux distro X doesn't *do*. What's with this? I am not a device driver authoer, so this is meant as a serious question. Why no Kensington SlimBlade Trackball Mouseware support or Logitech SetPoint support? This is how I USE my computer. This IS my computer when everything else is working well
By, for example, have a small binary blob for DRM stuff
According to how I read a popular copyleft license and its FAQ, such a binary blob would have to be a separate process, and the program would have to be substantially functional without it: Because it is a separate process, anyone can insert a man-in-the-middle shim that "tees" the decrypted output from the DRM-secured process into another file. And how would one make the engine substantially functional without it? Because otherwise, "packages which are not functional or useful without code or packages from third-party sources are not acceptable for inclusion in Fedora." (Fedora Packaging Guidelines)
This is never a good thing and Apple and Google have both figured this out. This is a result of Steve Ballmer not understanding the definition of a PC vs a tablet. When I use a PC I want a real OS, not some hybrid of windows phone 7 and windows 7. This wouldn't be an issue if on a tablet all operations could be performed within the metro ui and in a PC operation could be performed within the normal windows UI. Sadly this half and half approach will just lead to problems. Even the windows server 2012 ui has metro in it. I predict enterprises skipping windows 8.
See subject. You forgot to take your medication again nutboy!
Nobody else seems to have any trouble making their software "just work" on Linux
I'm still not quite believing it, but there it is.
Simple - 30% margins for App Stores. If you could get thousands of developers to give you 30% of everything they sell, wouldn't you try? I'm shocked that i-Whatever and Android users put up with this added "tax."
For me, it seems that giving your app away and charging for app upgrades outside the 30% taxation realm would be smarter. Advertising-based app payments simply don't pay enough to bother. Anyone with a rooted Android device can easily block them, I know since I have on both a phone an tablet.
MSFT sees those 30% margins and like the MPAA thinks that current app pricing will remain. It can't. A $20 app will need to be $2 inside a Windows App store to sell. $20 takes a little thought to decide if you will spend the money, but $2 is an impulse buy. That alters the ROI significantly.
While the prevailing thought that "0xB16B00B5" is sexist, there's an alternative explanation, that occured to me as I was reading over some of the comments. In some contexts, a "Big Boob" is someone who's a party-pooper, who is always crying about little things, who was offended and wants to take his ball home.
Thus, in this sense, requiring Linux to sign in as "0xB16B00B5" would be an insult towards Linux itself, and likely towards those who work with it as well. If we're worried about professionalism, I would almost hope that the sexism explanation were the right one!
In which case, it's both immature and insulting, and it would be right to require Microsoft to change it. But it's still not something to lose sleep over.
I couldn't make sense of that article. Did you see the part about photoshop being a virtual economy?
Is it the article writer's skills or is Gabe Newell batshit crazy? The text itself seems psychotic.
Hmmm.
Haikus are easy
but sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
If Windows 8 is the "closed ecosystem" as is claimed, then maybe that will be the death of Microsoft as it will be next in the long line of companies who surrounded their product set with closed, proprietary environments and ultimately did not survive the marketplace.