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USPS Discriminates Against 'Atheist' Merchandise
fish waffle writes "Suspecting that their strongly branded 'Atheist' products may be treated differently by more religiously-oriented postal regions, Kickstarter success Atheist Shoes conducted an experiment. They sent 178 packages to 89 people in different parts of the U.S., each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not. The results: packages with the atheist label were nearly 10 times more likely to be 'lost,' and took on average 3 days longer to show up when they did. Control experiments were also done in Europe and Germany — it's definitely a USPS problem."
what to label the feces I mail. 3 extra shitty days in transit.
Maybe they are simply falling prey to Acts of God.
What the hell is an atheist product? Practically everything is an atheist product.
But I ask what I guess everybody who isn't from the US is thinking.
What the hell is an "atheist shoe"?
Yeah omnipotent beings can't do that on their own. Well, they could if hey existed.
Need to post some boxes that say 'contains god' and see if it gets there quicker than the control.
"XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
Jesus didn't wear shoes -- why should you?
Be a jerk, apparently. Except in the Bible where he was an alright dude.
Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
ALBATROSS.
Their experiment is not correllation/causation.
They have identified something which is painfully obvious. The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery and that it only happens like this in the US.
This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
When they are at home or in their groups, let them say and think whatever they want. Let them march and protest and hold up signs expressing themselves. But when they are out there delivering things? Now they are interfering with commerce. Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
I'm thinking that results of the experiment disagree with you.
Sounds more like a USA problem than a USPS problem, this being an outlier of religious beliefs among wealthy nations. Atheist Shoes needed to send packages via FedEx and UPS in the same way to actually test this, and apparently didn't.
A true study would have equal numbers marked and unmarked. Also, did they change their origination point? If not, that could also skew the data.
If I had a dollar every time an atheist cried like a little bitch.....
I guess not reading the article makes you ask stupid questions.
Equal number of marked & unmarked packages. both sent out at the same time. both sent to the same address. They did this with 89 different people.
Be seeing you...
Does that mean ... they have no sole?
I'm sure there's a passage in the bible somewhere about delaying the goods in transit belonging to the non-believers. Probably in Levictus, alongside the bit about giving them bad haircuts if you're a barber.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
FTFA (which all the text is on a bloody image, I had to type that shit. You can thank me below.)
Now repeat the experiment with labels saying things like
'porn'
'lots of money inside'
'this package contains: newest iPhone'
I'm really interested in the outcome.
New theory: people love atheist products, so they get snatched more often by the postman.
'Surely the majority will look favorably on this brandname.' Way to rock the boat. What do you mean phil, should the minority just roll over and take this discrimination? No.. but i don't think this is the way to go about it. Baiting religious folk into these pitfalls seems quite petty to me. You could have chosen any of a hundred names for your product.
There was a yoyo craze when i was in primary school, everybody had to have a 'brain' yoyo.
Would you choose that name during a zombie apocalypse? I didn't think so.
It would be really interesting to do this experiment with tracking devices that logged their GPS locations periodically over 3G, and had multiple week-long battery life. The 'lost' packages could be tracked and it could be determined where they ended up. Mail fraud is a federal crime, but if it became a big national story with media shining light on the person(s) who were caught doing it, then it would likely result in some change, people going to prison, and the system improving to better serve the recipients of packages.
Yeah, for a god who is apparently such a petty asshole he wants people's mail to be lost if they don't believe in him, but is too fucking lazy to do it himself.
"New theory: people love atheist products, so they get snatched more often by the postman."
Still shows a serious problem a UPS
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.
The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine. The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart. And even if their statistics were correct, all they have demonstrated is that branded parcels took longer than unbranded - they should have also sent parcels with "God is great" on them, or some such if they wanted to demonstrate the nature of the bradning was decisive.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
"Divine Punishment". I bet the USPS drones would get off on delivering packages like that.
Hah, you fell for the troll.
Everybody knows that nobody reads the summary. We barely make it through the first couple of words of the title before posting.
How else can you get the frist post?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
RTFA
each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not
So equal numbers marked and unmarked. Can't get more equal than 1:1 ratio. (actually this was in the summary, so RTFS).
They all left Berlin
The "origination point" was outside the US. Packages that did not go through the US were not delayed or lost. Wherever in the US the problem is, the problem is at the USPS. Whether some locations in the US may or may not treat marked "atheist" mail better or worse does not make the general issue any better.
If I had a piece of earwax every time some religious person tried to make up excuses for his fellow religious men, I'd have more dollars worth or earwax than you would have.
FWIW, one of the 89 unmarked packages was lost too, so USPS is doing a bad job either way.
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This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
Unless the "lost" packages are the result of "concerned citizens" swiping them off of porches/out of mailboxes and tossing them in the trash (or into the book-burning-mobile). I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
Is Germany suddenly no longer part of Europe?
Another theory: a shoe company has a brilliant marketing idea to get free publicity based on the fact that a lot of people don't understand the difference between what they have done (or claim to have done) and a serious scientific study.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
This is only one sample and not repeated, therefore not proof.
What I would like to see is the distribution of the missing parcels. I would check the tracking on the missing packages and see if they were on the same truck. If they were on the same truck did that truck have an accident?
They don't provide any actual data or proof on the site. I find it hard to believe that out of 189 packages, that enough were lost in total that branded ones could be "ten times" more likely to be lost than unbranded, because that would mean a minimum of 11/189 packages were lost, and the USPS has never had anywhere near a 5% loss rate in my experience. That would literally make it unusable as a package delivery service for any retailer.
Atheists in America love to act like they're repressed, even in cases when they're not. I never understood this. This "study" has been a huge marketing boom for a company I have never heard of. Call me cynical, but this story is fishy as all hell. I've been trying to find any kind of formal study about lost packages and the USPS but haven't had much luck with casual Google searches. I did however find a LOT of anecdotal data from Amazon and eBay seller forums that indicates it seems to be less than 1%.
They have identified something which is painfully obvious. The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery and that it only happens like this in the US.
While the assumption is quite plausible, they did not "prove" anything. The control test was flawed. All packages shipped from Berlin but the US destined packages go through different handling in Germany, international vs domestic. Something could have happened in international handling in Germany. Unlikely but not ruled out. A better designed experiment is needed.
they should have also sent parcels with "God is great" on them, or some such if they wanted to demonstrate the nature of the bradning was decisive.
Add parcels with "Allahu Akbar" on them. Add flour to taste.
Good god fearing people in the US know that barbers are all Satanists. That why they ban barber poles.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
But randomized experiments imply causation.
I once did an internship for a company that shipped second hand business (=expensive) computer hardware on pallets.
Depending on which delivery service they used (I won't name the company), the products were either wrapped in clear foil or more expensive black foil.
Apparently, if they didn't wrap it in black foil, the chances of the pallet being lost increased significantly.
More on topic; as somebody pointed out on that shoe-company site; postal services are supposed to look for suspiciously marked packages. A package heavily marked "Atheist" might be considered a be a bit suspicious, especially in the US where the issue of religion seems to be a bit more polarized anyway. Screaming a (non-)religious opinion where non it expected does generally make one stand out from the crowd.
They should have included packages marked "Muslim", "Christian", "Neo-nazi" and "Non-religious", but I doubt the shoe-company would have ended up with the same amount of free advertising.
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Sorry, but you can't say "this is not correlation/causation" just because you have an axe to grind. This is a correlation measurement, with an interpretation implying causation, and the samples are too small to justify the conclusion.
I love how atheists throw scientific method out of the window when it comes to their assumption that there is no God, but here we have a complete masquerade of science ("control experiment"? please) and the only purpose it serves is as confirmation bias for the intolerant.
So international/transatlantic handling of Deutsch Post is also a possible culprit? They should have shipped from USA to eliminate the international (as in not within EU economic zone) variable. That said, its still quite plausible the problem is on the US side, but if your going to claim to be scientific then actually be scientific.
From a sample of 89 packages.
Either USPS loses the majority of the packages it handles, or the sample size is waaaay too small to draw that kind of conclusion. But hey, nice rational atheists would never resort to half baked sensationalist nonsense to promote their world view, would they.
Is it Atheist brand like they claim, or is it just the effect of displaying the content of the box? After all, a plain brown box is less likely to be stolen than one that says it has pricey new shoes in it.
A better test would be to have, as the control, boxes that say "Nike Air Jordans" (or whatever the closest competitor) and see if Atheist shoes get lost more than the Nikes.
And what, throw anything more 'suspicious' looking away 10 times as often as they normal? Sounds like a pretty stupid idea even if that was what they were trying to do.
of the strength of America's fundamentalist undercurrent.
A package heavily marked "Atheist" might be considered a be a bit suspicious, especially in the US where the issue of religion seems to be a bit more polarized anyway.
So explain to me: what exactly is the difference between the USA, and Afghanistan under the Taleban?
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
They didn't send out enough packages to be able to conclude anything other than the USPS giving a really shitty and unrelyable service. We'd need a couple of thousands more to conclude anything else. Also you'd have to factor in if the USPS had a really bad day.
20 minutes into the future
According to TFA, the only difference was the packing tape. It was either white with no info or with Atheist - Atheist - Atheist written all over.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
I noticed the same comment and it struck me as incredibly stupid.
USA post offices look for abnormal packages. Most drugs are sent in unusual packages so they are opened searched and resealed. If the tape said "GOD'S LAST STAND!" or "HAIL MARY!" you would have seen the same problem. One of those would have made for a better control.
I have my doubts about the drug thing. Why would people send their drugs in packages that look suspicious? Of course, if the post office only searches suspicious packages, all the drugs they'll find will be in suspicious packages, so mabye they feel like they are on the right track...
Now just because it is stupid, does not mean it can't be a real post office guideline.
Better pizza.
So it could come down to the parcels being marked as suspicious, going to the suspicious parcels department (leading to a 3 day delay), where one guy now has a nice line in selling second hand shoes in the bar after work (leading to higher incidence of "lost" packages).
So international/transatlantic handling of Deutsch Post is also a possible culprit? They should have shipped from USA to eliminate the international (as in not within EU economic zone) variable..
Which part of "the only difference was what was written on the box" is confusing you?
No sig today...
Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first.
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine. The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart
I would suggest that you take a relevant course in statistics. It is pretty obvious that you are rambling and reasoning without any understanding of the topic.
And even if their statistics were correct
The linked report clearly states the statistical methods they used and the results. If you want to criticize, just point out the incorrect statistical test and why it is not suitable in this situation, or why their conclusions are wrong. If you can't do that, you have no basis saying that their statistics are incorrect.
all they have demonstrated is that branded parcels took longer than unbranded
No. They have demonstrated that Atheist branded parcels took longer than unbranded parcels.
It's not meant as justification in any way. Note that one unmarked package was also lost; regardless of markings on the packages, the USPS is already unacceptably bad.
The question is whether the delivery is any different depending on markings. The assumption that this difference is caused by anti-atheist sentiments is based on biased research.
If you want to prove that apples are magnetic, you don't just drop an apple over a metal plate and claim magnetism attracted the apple to the plate. You try to disprove other possibilities.
In this case, they merely tested different packaging. Now try using tape with different text. Different color, different font. Try using staples instead of tape. Print the markings on the box directly or use stickers for the markings instead of tape, etc.
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Anyone who's ever actually sent a package through USPS should know that they explicitly recommend you destroy or cover any non-USPS related markings or labels, explaining that it may lead to delays or failure to deliver.
=Smidge=
"Note that we are not prepared to render equal services to the religious and the infidels.
However, the fees we will charge to the religious and the infidels are exactly equal, though.
May at least one of the gods officially approved by USPS be with you, if not all of them.
Regards,
Services Justification Service Dept.,
United States Postal Service."
I'll explain right after you explain to me why Afghanistan under Taliban regime should be considered average with regards religious polarization.
If your only defense is to compare with extremes, you've already lost the argument.
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A sample size of 89, all carried out at the exact same time from the same starting point is frankly an awful sample. How many international packages get sent from Germany every day? 100,000? 1mill? How is a non-random sample of 89 in any way representative of that?
Then there are other variables and questions. Why didn't they track the packages? They'd get detailed information that'd let them pinpoint where the problems happen. Are all the packages the exact same in terms of shape, size and contents? What were the contents? How long did they wait before saying the packages were classed as missing?
My suspicion would be that a lot of the Atheist branded packages were stopped by customs for inspection. I've had packages delayed by months because of this in the past (and the goods arrived damaged from them being opened). But that still shows signs of discrimination by customs right? Not really. They gave all the Atheist packages the same, very obvious branding (far more obvious than the plain packaging at least), one of the customs centres could've spotted that a 10 or so goods arriving at their centre were obviously from one company and picked those for inspection on the basis of them checking out the company. My experience is that certain companies are magnets for getting goods stopped/inspected by customs.
And they thought it said "A Theist".
They didn't want those pesky Theists getting any shoes and walking around the neighborhood knocking on doors.
Surely the research has many flaws, but they sent out 89 unmarked packages and 89 marked packages. 1 unmarked package was lost, 9 unmarked packages. Already this is much more than just a statistical anomally. The probability of this being a random occurance is incredibly slim.
If you consider losing even 2 packages out of 89 to be normal,the chance of losing 9 packages out of 89 is less than 0.001%.
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"I'll explain right after you explain to me why Afghanistan under Taliban regime should be considered average with regards religious polarization."
It isn't. Neither is the USA.
Hence the request.
The study didn't even begin to exam how the mail was lost, just that it was.
89x2 is enough to show a problem.
If you repeat the experiment, but change the brand to one of the following non-real brands:
1) High Explosive
2) Big Bomb
3) Subversive
4) Mind Control
5) Insurrection
6) Hardcore Porn
7) Gay Elimination
I wonder whether you'd get similar levels in variation of how many packages get through. I'm not suggesting anyone actually carries this out, just think about it. Labels containing words which give rise to perceived meanings will always cause at least some difference to happen. The simplistic idealistic 'don't judge a book by its cover' mindset that says that labels don't matter is just that: simplistic and idealistic. And in reality we can't evaluate the true content of what we see, so judging by outward appearances based on our internal beliefs is always going to happen. If you want packages to get through somewhere, don't put labels on which might cause delivery agents to not like the package.
On a similar note, I have the right to free speech, and to say that I disagree with government policy. But I should not expect to be able to walk onto a stage at a Republican conference and say that I believe that all Republicans are stupid, deluded and should be heavily medicated by our psychiatric friends to treat them for their 'disease' without at least getting heckled a little. People have likes and dislikes, and will not react the same to things they like as to things they dislike. This is human nature, and without it, we cease to be human.
John_Chalisque
If you come across a package that you know contain something you want.
And maybe you are not that honest, besides packages should be insured, right?
So what if you just take this box of nice shoes!
The problem might not be what the lable said, rather what the box contains.
But then again, the delay is just odd.
USPS != UPS
They are completely different organizations. USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap. UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
I am sure 9 vs 1 is a statistically significant difference.
Whether the nature of branding affects the results remains unproven, as you say.
If you want to prove that apples are magnetic, you don't just drop an apple over a metal plate and claim magnetism attracted the apple to the plate. You try to disprove other possibilities.
That's what they did. If you question it, do your own experiments. That's the real win in science. You can always test it yourself.
Learn to love Alaska
Because people are stupid, and when trying to hide something usually provide too much information. A package labeled "Amazing pie recipes featured in Spider-man comics. Fragile" would probably get delayed too, because the sentences, while syntacticly correct, don't make sense: pie recipes in spiderman? Fragile recipes? Likewise, prominently marking shoes as atheist is just weird. Atheist books, art, movies, t-shirts, etc. sure. But shoes are... shoes. It's also possible that anything with any prominent label gets delayed (the company didn't try to use other labels).
This is a problem why, exactly?
I had a friend in high school who used to receive anarchist material via USPS. (Yes, I see the irony). He used to stamp his correspondence with "God bless the USPS". He claimed it improved the delivery rate.
Now we have to consider the most likely reasons for this findings and perform further studies to find out which of those reasons are real.
Many of the current posters seem to be in the denial state: Can't happen or is just a statistical fluke.
"Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first"
I thought the Nowegians were the first to the Poles (Nort and south anyway)
That assumes that each individual package was independent and random.
A single unlucky or freak event could affect multiple samples (for example if a sack holding 6 atheist packages gets lost or damaged).
To use a classic example. I could carry out a survey for people's favourite dog and have 99 out of 100 say poodle. If you assumed it to be truly random, the chances of that not indicating that American is a nation of poodle lovers is astronomical. However what if I then revealed that all these people had been asked in the same morning at the national poodle lovers convention? Would my survey still be nailed on? Even if I went to great lengths to randomly pick random attendees?
If it's suspicious they're supposed to seize it and turn it over to the USPIS for investigation.
Throwing shit in the garbage is only for waste.
So international/transatlantic handling of Deutsch Post is also a possible culprit? They should have shipped from USA to eliminate the international (as in not within EU economic zone) variable..
Which part of "the only difference was what was written on the box" is confusing you?
None of it. You are confused, you are failing to consider that people in *both* international Deutsch Post and USPS were reading what was written. Successful deliveries in domestic Deutsch Post do not rule out problems in the international handling.
Your presumption that just because God *won't* do something means he *can't* do it is flawed.
There's plenty of crap a sentient being can refrain from doing that it's perfectly capable of.
About time someone threw it back in their faces. Atheists aren't a problem to me, but I'm a problem to them.
Compare the religious pages out there with the atheist pages out there.
Most atheist pages attack religion ruthlessly. Most religion pages talk about philosophy. FEWER of each do the opposite.
If you ask me, they had it coming. Maybe praying to God will get those packages there on time.
And the czech borders were already overrun in 1938 and confirmed in Munich Sep 29 1938.
So the packages were teleported from Germany warehouses to USPS facilities? If not, GP has a point, and the transatlantic shipping or customs could be to blame.
Did they cross check with similar sized, similar colored, random dictionary words-labeled packages?
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
I suppose that you don't trust study on reliability of nuclear power plant ? There has been only 3 major accident, the sample is too small.
you know what the Gp meant you pedantic asshole.
The experimental process was sound.
Two packages, sent at the exact same time, to the same destination, the only difference was the brand tape. This conducted almost 90 times. It's enough to calculate a lot of useful things.
They performed control experiments where the destination went to other parts of the world without that problem.
The problem clearly starts at the US border. Another commenter pointed out "it could be customs." They could be right. But the type of discriminaiton is still not warranted, NOT ALLOWED and is still unprofessional.
So I take it you read the experiment's data. It paints a very clear picture.
So perhaps I just don't understand what it takes to carry out a proper experiment? What was done wrong? The samples are not too small -- that's my opinion. They were not studying things with too many variables. In fact it seems they did everything to could to reduce and remove variables in this case. Two packages shipped at the same time to the same destination should arrive at the same time. It's a matter of convenience. It is actually inconvenient to separate things in the way they were.
This assumption about "there is no god" is backward. When it comes to the method, you need to start with nothing and work with the information available and perform experiments. If you want to talk about the existence of a god, then you first must understand that the burden of proof is on the theist, not the atheist. EVERYONE is born atheist. No one knows anything about any gods until they are taught. See how that works? The problem comes in when people begin to realize there's pretty flimsy evidence that magic beings exist in the ways being claimed.
And now for a bit of antagonism: Why to theists go to doctors, hospitals and take medicines? Even the last Pope had a pacemaker. Do you have such little faith?
Have you heard of Atheist shoes before? Not me.
I would have thought that atheists pose no threat to national security or to any religious group. They simply go about their business or are there fundamentalist atheists who disrupt religious groups?
I propose that the same experiment be carried out with the word 'Muslim' replacing 'Atheist'. Discarding 'to be expected' security issues, I wonder how many parcels would go missing?
Now repeat the experiment with labels saying things like
Well, the same experiment with "fragile" boxes containing an accelerometer showed that they get beaten up far, far worse than an unmarked box.
Of course, for that one, we didn't really need more proof - I get somewhere around 100 assorted deliveries per year, all in great shape; even when they arrive in torrential rain and sit outside all day, I find them neatly bagged, perfectly safe and dry... Unless the sender stupidly marked them "fragile". Then I get a box at least badly frayed on all sides, often damp (even when delivered in dry weather, seriously, WTF), frequently with the corners blown out or other large inexplicable holes in the sides. I honestly don't think I've ever received a "fragile" package that didn't look like a second-hand box-fort from Afghanistan.
Sad, really... I mean, most of us don't exactly love our jobs. We may enjoy some parts of it, but on the whole, we'd still rather sleep in. But we get up every day to earn an honest day's pay. If you need to slack off a bit, hey, just don't get caught; but when you start taking out your lack of a fulfilling life on the very products they pay you to handle - GTFO.
'porn'
'lots of money inside'
'this package contains: newest iPhone'
These are things that a substantial portion of population might be immediately tempted to steal, but something simply labeled "atheist"? How many times have you been tempted to steal an atheist?
Ezekiel 23:20
That assumes that each individual package was independent and random.
A single unlucky or freak event could affect multiple samples (for example if a sack holding 6 atheist packages gets lost or damaged).
You make a good point - but given that two otherwise-identical packages were sent to each address at the same time, what are the chances that all the "atheist" packages would be put in one sack, and all the plain ones in another? Isn't the more plausible hypothesis that either packages would be assigned to sacks (/planes/trucks/etc) at random, or that ones going to the same address would have a much higher probability of ending up together? In either case, the probability of the sort of bias you mention is much reduced.
Need to type accents and special characters in Windows? Use FrKeys
Your presumption that "he" (yes, a biological concept, for an omnipotent being, no less) even exists in the first place is flawed. Otherwise, you have to accept every single god that anyone ever has claimed to exist. Do you?
I was thinking the same, sending the "unmarked" package with some other kind of tape on would have been a nice comparison. But taped packages arrived fine in Europe, maybe we are just more used to red tape over here.
> in Europe and Germany
Germany has already seceded from Europe?
"I guess not reading the article makes you ask stupid questions."
We don't read articles where the summary mentions 'Europe AND Germany"
In a universe sadly not our own, someone resembling Morgan Freeman appears behind those people and asks them to guess which commandment they're breaking.
New theory: people love atheist products, so they get snatched more often by the postman.
That would explain disappearing packages, but how would it explain delays?
And what is the chance that out of 89x2 packages, 6 labeled "atheist" end up in the same sack, but no unlabeled ones get there? Unless the label had an effect on correlation between packages...
USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Atheist on it...
UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Fragile on it...
Oh, I thought packages were also sent through Germany and Europe as well. Guess not.
Amerika sucks.
Still wouldn't explain delays. Unless the "concerned citizens" are then later tortured by their conscience, and return the item...
Kickstarter atheist shoe company reports discrimination in USA. No red flags there. I believe them. I'm certain it's not a publicity stunt.
Actually, IAAS (I am a statistician) and the statistical tests that they used are the appropriate ones for this study. Assuming they're not faking the data, they have done the analysis correctly.
Ah, thank you -- I hadn't noticed that connection. I did think I would really like to see the data for myself, to find just such an anomaly.
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier (i.e., if taking that out makes them about even), then it basically counts as a lie: while what they are saying is technically accurate, they know it will be interpreted as "the typical delivery took 3 days longer", which is not the same thing.
Hard to see how the 9:1 ratio of lost packages could be such an anomaly though...
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Depends how they were handed over to the postal service. They may have been handed over sorted already by the store. They may have been sorted by a postal worker who thought they were all part of the same batch after they were handed over. There's no way of knowing if something like this occurred which is why using a random method is so important.
Apparently Germany is no longer part of Europe? Damn. I had just gotten used the the European maps with a unified Germany, too.
Way to proofread.
Good to see there are still anonymous slashdotters willing to post obvious but successful trolls.
Or maybe it means the atheist labeled packages got preferential treatment on the German side and since a cargo plane can only hold so many packages, they had priority loading and the regular packages took the next flight.
Or maybe it means that shipping packages overseas during the Christmas season can cause all sorts of delays.
Or maybe it means that that snow in the upper midwest led to delays on those Michigan packages.
Or maybe it means that one shouldn't try to apply statistical methods to non-statistical samples.
Or maybe it means that atheists make up shit to stir up their fanbase just as much as the religious zealots do.
Your presumption of there being a god is flawed so that makes your response just as flawed.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
That would be why they did the control experiment where they shipped them to other countries apart from the USA.
No sig today...
They have a typo in their URL at the bottom of their infographic? Or are they saying that atheisberlin.com doesn't exist along with God?
I brown package gay porn for the clients in the Bible Belt area I label them as Christian Contemplations. USPS delivers reliably and fast, leaving my customers fully satisfied.
I'd like them to take 178 regular packages and track them as accurately as they did. I bet they will get the same results because the post office just sucks.
damn, the God of Fedex made me do that typo
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Anyone who's ever actually sent a package through USPS should know that they explicitly recommend you destroy or cover any non-USPS related markings or labels, explaining that it may lead to delays or failure to deliver.
Unfortunately for you, you have failed to understand their admonishment and are therefore repeating it when it is inapplicable. That applies to warning labels (e.g. ORM-D numbers) as well as bar codes and addresses, and has nothing to do with decorative tape.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The pastor of the local Presbyterian church in America isn't likely to raise up a mob to come beat you to death if you're accused of burning a Bible.
Someone who used to work at the Danish postal service (which may or may not be treating fragile packages the same way), explained this:
They have this large box on wheels they put the packages in, so they can easily roll them into a truck. Large heavy packages at the bottom, fragile packages on top, so they don't get damaged.
When the truck arrives at the destination, these boxes are rolled out and emptied, by TURNING THEM UPSIDE DOWN.
So this could happen to you. If you are offended by this event, or the possibility that discrimination could happen to something that you hold dear, then write your Senators and US Representative. Tell them the facts as you see it, and ask them for a personal response back to you about their planned actions.
Its reasonably clear that your tax dollars are being used to support discriminatory behavior. Who will be the next target?
So, if the labeled and unlabeled packages traveled in pairs, why didn't the unlabeled package, coming from the same place and addressed to the same recipient, also get lost or delayed? If there was malice involved, wouldn't it affect both packages?
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window.
I had a darwin fish stolen from my car in Santa Cruz. Fucking religious wingnuts are everywhere. You're best off without any stickers on your car, though. They're the most reliable indicator of road rage.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The article fails to mention that the same experiment was conducted with merchandise clearly marked as Republican.
Same results.
That commandment, apparently, was not taught to the US "christians".
What I find incredible is that even one parcel out of 200 got lost... WTF
They performed control experiments where the destination went to other parts of the world without that problem.
Their control packages reportedly went to "Germany and Europe". A better control would have been Canada, China and Japan, as the processing for non-European, overseas countries is certainly different.
my son received a SS check 2 weeks late, and when it arrived it looked like it was left on the floor of the jeep stepped on and dragged through mud. other times i will check tracking an packages will be noted "notice left" without even hearing a knock or doorbell, this usually happens on rainy days. i suspect a severe case of laziness among many usps workers.
US Customs could be the culprits, although it would be the job of USPS to find out why the heck their numbers do not fit the German Post numbers... ..., blame the french ...)
It could only be a German Post issue if you think that they have some nefarious plan to make the USPS look bad by intentionnaly removing/delaying parcels sent to the US but not to other countries based on the lable.
(or it is thouse shifty other europeans who actually "accelerate" the evil packages to make the US look back, yep that should explain it
Hard to see how the 9:1 ratio of lost packages could be such an anomaly though...
It's not the ratio - it's the fact that it's based on only 10 events. Just think - if one more non-branded package had gone through, the ratio would have halved. When would that next parcel have been lost? Would it have been on the 90th send, or the 180th? We don't know. If you were trying for statistical rigour, you'd want to repeat the experiment until you were satisfied that a few extra events on either side wouldn't have a significant event. Consider, if they'd had 90 branded lost, and 10 non-branded lost, the ratio would have made exactly the same as presented, but an extra event on either side would have had a far lower impact on the actual ratio.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
When you send only 178 packages and some of them not showing is indicative of the postal services bad service and not some drummed up fantasy notion of them being persecuted somehow by the all religious and all powerful government. Come on, that's a joke and a half. "Yeah yeah cause the government, you see they don't like us because we don't believe in their "religion" man. Yeah man they hate us and lose our packages because we don't follow the governments rules and do what they say. We aren't puppets man!" Blow it out yer arse.
Sounds like this company is run by annoying hippies and hipsters that want to create some controversy about their product to get free advertising.
When you just send out so little product if 2 packages were lost then yeah it can be 10 times greater chance and all, but that doesn't mean they did it on purpose. That test group is way too small and way too short of an experiment. Its the USPS, they suck. They have no grand scheme to screw you over, they are just an awful service.
Damn, you guys have some giant egos to actually believe what youre shoveling. Its crap like this that gives us atheists a bad name. You rub religious peoples nose in your shit then youre just going to piss them off and me personally, I would rather not kick the hornets nest and let them be.
You're new theory fails the Occam's Razor.
What's more likely, a group of religious nuts are interfering with mail clearly against their religion in a country that is well known for it's amazingly high number of religious nuts?
Or that a bunch of people all have an incredibly keen interest in stealing the lovely and ever so popular [insert product no one has ever heard of here].
If they were actually sending iPhones then your theory would pass Occam's Razor, and above all would actually be very likely.
Amazing, can't even rely on the post office to send your unbelieving-in-god parcel... :) how ungodly! :)
Of course, for that one, we didn't really need more proof - I get somewhere around 100 assorted deliveries per year, all in great shape; even when they arrive in torrential rain and sit outside all day, I find them neatly bagged, perfectly safe and dry... Unless the sender stupidly marked them "fragile". Then I get a box at least badly frayed on all sides, often damp (even when delivered in dry weather, seriously, WTF), frequently with the corners blown out or other large inexplicable holes in the sides. I honestly don't think I've ever received a "fragile" package that didn't look like a second-hand box-fort from Afghanistan.
You need to switch to a different delivery company, then. I've had that problem with DHL (seriously... they left a $600 computer monitor sitting on my front stoop because I wasn't home... thankfully my next-door neighbour saw it and rescued it so the hooligans on the other side didn't "liberate" it).
But with Purolator especially, I've never had a problem. I've also never had an issue with UPS, but I'm not in the states, so they may be different there.
How do you know definitely it's USPS losing your packages? A package from Germany to USPS exchanges hands with many parties: it first goes through a system of Universal Postal Union before it's handed to USPS, and has to clear customs before it leaves Germany and also before it enters the US. Germany to EU is regional delivery and goes through different routes.
He should publish some tracking information to back up his claim. At least the shipping information will show dates and locations of the packages where they get lost or delayed. The dates can be used to identify weather patterns and see if weather is a bias. The midwest and northeast has had some pretty rough winter this year.
A responsible person should be a lot more careful before attacking someone else, particularly if you already know that a person's religion is a very personal thing. He hasn't even shown that USPS workers are religious to begin with, and whether it's the religious ones or atheists ones losing the packages. Why shouldn't an atheist USPS worker embezzle the shoes? It's an amusing artifact for them to steal and it would have no value to religious ones. He jumps the gun and accuses the religious ones of losing atheist branded packages. That's irresponsibility.
He just makes a cleverly drawn poster and made you believe he put the effort to conduct a study. He's just trying to raise a controversy.
I once had a signature.
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
So this surprises you, somehow? You freely acknowledge that you grew up in an area with a lot of fundamentalists, and are surprised that people might be offended by you loudly advertising your belief in something that disagrees with their beliefs?
You're as bad as the Christians, if you don't understand why they may be offended by that.
and i still didn't get them, probably some fucking hill billy who hates french art mags threw them in the trash.
You're absolutely correct - real Americans hate atheists - this country was founded by religious people (Christians, by the way, our currency even has "In God we Trust" printed on it).
Real Americans carry guns, wear furs, don't give a shit about endangered kangaroo rats, and aren't afraid to speak their minds (we have a first amendment that guarantees that right), and are tired of all the "politically correct" bullshit - the "right" to not be offended doesn't override the right to free speech (and free thought).
Real Americans are conservative (politically) and support the rights of the individual; they also believe in personal responsibility, and deplore the "liberal democrat" belief that big government is the answer to social ills - the "socialist nanny state" that believes the rich should pay for everything (and tries to take as much of what they have earned as possible) so that the government can provide free handouts to every lazy, stupid idiot who won't work for a living. (and don't give me any bullshit about the lack of jobs - there is only a lack of jobs that will let you collect a fat paycheck without much work - if you are willing to work, there are jobs available).
Real Americans know that the ONLY "immigration reform" needed is enforcement of the laws currently on the books, and deportation of all of the illegal aliens (they are NOT "undocumented immigrants", that's liberal bullshit, the are breaking the law just by being here).
Real Americans have a problem with any religion that dictates how people should dress, treats women as property, supports the indiscriminate killing of women, children, and anyone who does not belong to that religion - that's why we hate Muslims (not the only reasons, but the biggies).
Real Americans do not give a shit about "world opinion" - the phrase "fuck off if you don't like it" comes to mind - why the hell should we care about some third-world shithead thinks.
Real Americans are also generous and giving, and are the first to rush aid and comfort to victims of natural disasters, even those who hate us.
I am a Real American, and I have to get to work.
and if I had a dollar for every time an Atheist tried to defend his belief (yes, I called it a belief; troll responses incoming!) in Almighty Science by using unscientific information, I'd have more money than either of you.
Most athiests are worse than christians about preaching their beliefs at any cost.
I live in the South. This is Holy week. I have Christians constantly coming to my door to tell my about Jesus or, get this, switch to their church.
I ignore the doorbell because 9/10 it's someone selling something - like superstitious non-sense about an anti-sex death cult like Christianity. This one Christian kept ringing and knocking until finally pissed off I went to the door. She slaps this wad of shit with pictures of this bearded white guy (Jesus was brown!) in my hand and asked me where I went to church. I said "Nowhere."
"Why?", she asked.
"Because it's boring and a waste of time."
"Can I pray for you?"
I snickered at such a stupid question. Does she think I'd know or something? Does she think God is going to come down and rat her out and tell me that she prayed for me behind my back?!
Oh no! Someone prayed for me behind my back! The horrors!!
My usual response is "Order God to give me a 100 million dollars and a Learjet! And tell Him to make it snappy!" Instead I just said, "Don't waste your time." and shut the door on her and promptly burned the picture of Jesus and all of the non-sense lit she gave me.
tl;dr - Christians are the most pushy and arrogant people I know. They think they know that they are right and know the Truth and you'd better listen!
They are just discriminating against packing tape with words on it. Stop trying to turn your non-religion into a religion so we can all discriminate against it.
Do they even get tracking info on international packages handled through post? If not, then they are relying on the reporting of people ordering atheist-logo'd shoes, who may have motivation to skew the reported outcome. Even if the shipper themselves have no such motivation. The reliability is even worse if these were test packages sent to consenting participants and not actual orders.
This is like suggesting religiously labeled packages would get lost in predominantly atheist regions.
It's one thing to be proud of what you are. It's another to be "in your face" about it. Come on, Atheist shoes? That's some of the dumbest branding I've seen in my life. That's as stupid as something like Christian hats.
Nobody likes those people that take every opportunity to proudly harp on about their core beliefs, no matter how inappropriate the venue.
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
So this surprises you, somehow? You freely acknowledge that you grew up in an area with a lot of fundamentalists, and are surprised that people might be offended by you loudly advertising your belief in something that disagrees with their beliefs?
You're as bad as the Christians, if you don't understand why they may be offended by that.
No, you inferred surprise. At the time I was a teenager and felt the need to distinguish my truck from all the Jesus fish, bumper stickers telling me I was going to hell, crucifixes hanging from rearview mirrors, etc. Now I don't own a car and live in a town that is ~80% atheist/non-religious.
And no, I'm not as bad as the Christians because I never vandalized their cars, accosted them on the street, kicked them out of the Boy Scouts, got the middle school science teacher fired, or protected the pedophile gym teacher because of their religious views. Personally I think that it is childish to flip off a stranger because something on their car offends you.
Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
Well said! I would give you about 100 mod points for that phrase alone, if I could. (You've explained sectarian conflicts like the Troubles in Northern Ireland, or the Sunni-Shiite mess in Iraq, in three words.)
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
I would suggest that you take a relevant course in statistics. It is pretty obvious that you are rambling and reasoning without any understanding of the topic.
Always said by someone who has, themselves, no clue.
It's not as simple as the forty minutes of instruction you had in high school would lead you to believe. But if you're in a hurry, here's a sign your sample size was small: you found only one of what you were looking for, e.g. one missing unlabeled package.
Of course discussing the mathematics of an experiment performed by people with obvious motivation to skew the results is kinda silly.
I find lots of irrational behavior on both sides of the religion vs. non-religion argument. Neither side seems to want to admit it. It's just a lot of pots calling kettles black. Both sides have zealots and they are equally annoying. Both sides have people doing good things in their history, both sides have people doing bad things in their history. I wish they'd both stop trying to spread their beliefs because neither of them is making any ground and it's really annoying.
Fat chance that will happen, I guess. Nobody is willing to go first because they don't trust that the other side will follow, and I don't blame them.
No, I understand that. I certainly don't think that we can say with a high statistical certainty that the ratio of missing packages is 9:1 -- as you say, a single additional missed non-labelled package could make it 4:1. What I am saying is, whatever the actual ratio, it seems fairly unlikely to be 1:1 -- and that's a problem, even if it's only in fact 11:10.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Have you heard of Atheist shoes before? Not me.
You have now, which is the whole point.
Fire anyone who hold the shipment up, complains about the packaging or manages to lose the package. If your going to work for the postal service you need to show no basis towards any packaging.
Perhaps if atheists weren't constantly attacking religion, they wouldn't give to shits about your hipster atheist shoes.
Read up on what atheism actually is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
Most atheists are of the negative atheism (or comparable) variety; not having any evidence for the existance of a god, they have no reason to believe a god exists, Basically applying Occam's razor to the problem. This is like all scientific theory; for all practical purposes, assumed true until proven otherwise but always understanding the theory might be incorrect.
Though the implications of, say, ignostics are different, the basic reasoning is similar; no scientific evidence = no belief.
Religion implies a belief in a god despite a lack of any evidence and counter-evidence.
Positive atheism implies a disbelief in god even if there would be factual evidence for the existence of a god.
Negative atheism (and most other forms of atheism/agnosticism) implies a disbelief in a god unless presented with factual evidence for the existence of a god.
Provide solid, scientific proof for a god and most atheists will gladly adopt the theory (not believe) of the existence a god.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
I am Christian and, though I may disagree with an Atheist, I will defend to the death the right to mail packages without having them intentionally lost or damaged. Discrimination and favoritism are not good behaviors for people.
Statistically, sure. But we need someone else to try this from entirely within the USA so that we can rule out Customs as the problem.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I wouldn't call this a definitive experiment until it's also attempted with packages marked 'FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN', "SHI'A MUSLIM' and several others. They may get the same treatment, which would show that it's a bias against either religious beliefs in general, or against writing in all caps.
Maybe if they wouldn't litter in the stream of postal items, they wouldn't find other people picking up and throwing out their trash for them.
She slaps this wad of shit with pictures of this bearded white guy (Jesus was brown!)
That isn't as bad as it sound. Historically imagery of Jesus and other biblical folk has always been adjust to the target culture. Europeans and derived use to see the blonde Jesus because that's the picture typically used in medieval Europe among white people, but if you seek around you find lots of additional Jesuses, from the brown to the asian. Chinese Jesus in particular is awesome. You have no idea that's a Christian drawing unless someone tells you, otherwise your tendency is to assume it's a random Chinese historical/mythical event or another, what with everyone looking Chinese and wearing Chinese peasant clothes and having Chinese mountains as background etc.
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
Contrariwise, I had a bumper sticker on my old car that read "Doing my part to PISS OFF the Religious Right". It got mildly vandalized once[1] in all the years I had it, and this was in heavily fundie Baptist southwest Missouri. Once when I went to get my hair cut the woman doing it said (with tones of mixed admiration and surprise) that I had a lot of guts doing that around here.
[1] I expect if it'd been easily removable (like a Darwin fish) it'd have been stolen by this individual, though.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
You sound like you're excusing the fundies' behavior and blaming the victim. If that's not your intent, reconsider how you communicate.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Ummm...well you are correct Sammy didn't wear a Saint medal. That is because he converted to Judaism in the mid 50s and he wore the Star of David. It is clearly visible in many photographs count the points there and maybe get out of your mom's basement a bit.
Also it DESPERATELY needs false samples. This test needs atheist labeled packages which in reality contain Al Bundy's Godly And Divine shoes.
If those weren't nicked then we could conclude that the postal workers use Divine Powers to find the heathen payloads.
Or they could also lose them all and let God sort them out.
Crack that whip! Deliver those mails you Cherubim and Seraphim! Mail for the Mail God!
20 minutes into the future
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier
What the fuck.
..at least estimate the division in your head.. "37 D divided by 89 P ... thats not anywhere near 3.0 D / P and therefore couldn't possibly explain the on average 3.0 D / P extra travel time claimed, so anyone who suggested it is fucking stupid."
37 days over 89 packages is only 0.4157 days / package.
You seem to be pretending to use your brains by talking like maybe you might be, but for fuck sakes..
"His name was James Damore."
It would have been better to send a third (and maybe fourth) batch with stickers like "Jesus loves you" or "Allahu Akbar" to see how they compared.
My guess is that any package expressing an opinion would fare worse than plain packages, but it would have been interesting to see how the different delays and losses for the different opinions compared.
A female one?
heh, props for the fundie book burning mobile.
If I had a dollar every time an atheist cried like a little bitch.....
You'd probably spend your free time punching atheists in the crotch?
You'd probably have a lot more pocket change for the offering on Sunday?
You'd join the Westboro "Baptist" "Church"?
The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart.
By "massively skewed" do you mean that dropping this single sample would only result in reducing the 3.0 days extra figure to a 2.6 days extra figure?
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
37.0 D / 89.0 P = 0.4157 D / P
Another way to look at it that avoids your silly mistake: 89 packages each with 3 days average delay time is 89.0 P * 3.0 D = 267 DP. Now compare 37 to 267. Does it still look 'massive' as you so ignorantly claim?
"His name was James Damore."
I have to fend off kidnapping attempts 3 times a week and I'm only labeled agnostic.
People are either Christian, or headed for hell and of Satan.
Most American goods come from China, so American Christians prefer to buy the goods of Satan.
So with science and engineering -- of Satan.
Yet virtually everything around us came through science and engineering's magic touch
-- blended shirts (banned in the bible), invisible electromagnetic waves everywhere to be interpreted, risen people in airplanes, medical prosthetics getting even amputees to walk.
In the last hundred years, name one "good" thing religion has given us.
Now name something good science has given us.
speaking as a conservative baptist:
1 you have my permission to post a Goat Pentagram (or similar GTFA type symbol) on your door
2 if you would like to watch a good service from home hit http://www.salembaptistnow.org/#/salem-media at 10:45am on sunday
(i will be waving to you from the other side of the projection system)
3 http://www.xiphos.org/ would be a free bible study program with a great number of bibles and such (uses the crosswire format)
and with that i will close with yes Atheism is a Faith since Faith answers the question of Who is At Fault (for the big questions of Life)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
The more likely factor at work here is that if 50 experiments are done by different organizations to test this same premise, the only one that gets published is the one with the newsworthy result. We don't know about the other 49 times that atheist packages were delivered equally well because who would ever report that?
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What does this have to do with Occam's Razor?
Between 'someone got themselves a new pair of shoes' on one side and the whole mess that forms theist culture and worldviews on the other, which for some reasons still unknown to me leads to the spiriting away of packets in the name of god (?), I'd say the former is clearly the simpler theory.
The question is was the Atheist boxes shipped ground and the non atheist boxes shipped 2 days or next day?
No, it clearly affects products originating in Berlin and destined for the US.
That doesn't mean that it starts at the US border (and, even if it does start at the US border, it doesn't mean its USPS; US Customs, for instance, could be involved.)
And, even if it does start at the border, its not clear that the problem is with "Atheist". The neutral tape had no branding; it could be a -- and this is a widely recognized issue -- problem with branded vs. unbranded packages.
Too many uncontrolled-for variables to reach the conclusion (USPS discriminates against Atheist-branded products.)
False.
Yes, they were. Specifically, the setup they have does not distinguish between the explanation they present as their conclusion and:
* The actual difference shown being caused by branded vs. non-branded products rather than atheist-branded vs. other-branded products
* The actual problem occurring somewhere between the origin point and the arrival in the US but selectively targeting atheist-branded (or just branded, see previous point) products destined for the US
* The actual problem occurring in the US by some group or combination of groups other than the USPS (e.g., delay or loss by US Customs and/or package loss due to theft by private criminals at the delivery point.)
The experiment is a reasonable first step motivated by the hypothesis that the USPS discriminates against atheist-branded packages, but its not remotely sufficient evidence to support the conclusion that such discriminatio exists.
So what the fuck is the point of worshiping a god that doesn't do shit? you might as well worship the bum down the street since he could become CEO of google if he felt like it but he's just he's not in the mood.
Yes, you are right. So the clustering and the maltreatment events could be separate.
Removing the outlier brings the average down to about 2.5 days but that is only correct if we suspect that the delay might be caused by something else than the "Atheist" label.
The fact that we still have an average delay of 2.5 days tells us that even the outlier could have been caused by the label and if that is the case it would be correct to keep it when calculating the average.
If you incite violence it will come. IMHO atheists want to believe. We all want to believe. Your last breath will be a tiny tiny tiny call for belief.
That aside, The 10 commandments are what separate us from Russia. I know when you are young, you want to be completely free. I get that. But the 10 commandments gives you a father, perhaps a better father than you had.
Help eliminate stupid speeding tickets
Ah, thank you -- I hadn't noticed that connection. I did think I would really like to see the data for myself, to find just such an anomaly.
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier (i.e., if taking that out makes them about even), then it basically counts as a lie: while what they are saying is technically accurate, they know it will be interpreted as "the typical delivery took 3 days longer", which is not the same thing.
Dude, you can do some some basic math to check if it is reasonable that the difference was mostly caused by that single outlier, you don't need all values for that:
We know that 79 labeled packages arrived, with a claimed average of 3 days longer. This means 79 * 3 = 237 days longer.
Remove the 37 day package, this gives us 237-37 = 200 days longer for 78 packages.
200/78 = 2.56 days longer/package in average with the 37-dayer removed.
Removing that package changes some decimals, but leaves the "3 days longer on average" claim valid.
No, read the article, or at least the summary.
The packages were sent as a pair, the marked and unmarked one with the same destination sent at the same time. Unlucky or freak accidents can be ruled out. One would have to intentionally separate the packages to be able to treat them differently.
Accidentally leaving the marked package in the back of the truck could have happened but that can be ruled out from the sample size.
Not only were control packages sent with the marked package, control packages were also sent to different states and different nations.
If the problem had been in a specific state we would have known. If the problem had been early in the chain we would have known. If the problem had been equal in several nations we would have known. He people would have stolen the packages because they wanted the shoes we would only have seen missing packages, not delayed.
I think you will have a hard time finding a plausible explanation other than "Religious nutjobs did it.".
We can't tell to what religion they subscribe, for that another test would have to be done.
You might want to read some history... the actual founders of America were quite liberal for their time. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
That only makes the being worse IMO. Better to fail at omnipotence than benevolence.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Indeed! Labeling something Frag-ile, from Latin for the ability of something to be frag'ed, is just asking for it! captcha: damages
Probably in Levictus
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was in there.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
pie recipes in spiderman?
Yes, Hostess pies. Their delicious cherry filling is perfect for catching Dr. Octopus.
This was an international shipment. USPS just delivers packages. It's customs job to scrutinize packages coming into the US. This article looks more like an advertisement than anything.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
37.0 D / 89.0 P = 0.4157 D / P
Another way to look at it that avoids your silly mistake: 89 packages each with 3 days average delay time is 89.0 P * 3.0 D = 267 DP. Now compare 37 to 267. Does it still look 'massive' as you so ignorantly claim?
Wait, why are you using 89 packages when nine of them were lost in the mail? That means we don't have delivery time information for them and should be using 80 packages for the math. Also, without having the raw data that they used the best we can conclude is that the 37 days may have had a significant difference on the total, but the extent is currently unknowable.
They sent two packages to people in 49 of 50 states, all on the same day. That sounds like test packages, not product deliveries, or am I to believe they had orders from 49 states to ship out? Two pairs to each recipient, no less.
How did they choose recipients? Volunteers? Would volunteers not be motivated to skew the results?
Were the results gathered from tracking info? Do deliveries of German post packages by USPS get tracking info in the States, and did they pay for that option, or did they rely on reporting by the participants?
The only way to do this test without predetermining the outcome is to not rely on reporting of the recipients, and to ship identical packages except for labeling. And, of course, the test should be done by someone who does not stand to gain from the controversy.
I can believe packages labeled "atheist" go missing in the USA, but their numbers are both suspicious and convenient.
"1. can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.a 2. You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship."
This is reiterated throughout the New Testament in Timothy and others but is never preached on that I've ever heard. I grew up in church, turned away from it for 6 years as an agnostic, and then came back after I finally sat down and started reading the Bible. When you actually read it, you'll be shocked at how heavily it's manipulated and abused on a daily basis for one purpose or another. If churches actually followed this rule of kicking out people who pretend to live one way and disgrace the entire congregation because of it you'd see dramatically less "duality" because the people who were there for show would no longer be there.
Churches should and do welcome people who are struggling with issues and seeking help. Everything from addictions to financial troubles. These people are not a problem. It's the people who try to visibly play the part with no intention of actually following through that continue to give the church a bad name.
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
I guess not reading the article makes you a normal slashdot reader.
There, fixed that for you.
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine.
Actually, it's plenty. The number of lost parcels should be, roughly speaking, a Poisson distributed statistic. If we assume a fixed rate of parcel loss, the number of parcels lost from any given batch of shipments should come in at that rate, plus or minus some noise. For this type of statistical distribution, the standard deviation from batch to batch is approximately the square root of the expectation value.
For 178 parcels (89 under each condition) the observed losses were 1 parcel (1.1%) for non-atheist packages, and 9 parcels (10%) for atheist packages. If we suppose that the actual loss rate is between those two extremes, we get a loss rate of about 5.5%, and an expected loss of 5 parcels per batch of 89 parcels.
The standard deviation for that batch size is the square root of 5, or about 2.2; the two observations that we have are both about two standard deviations away from the expectation value. The likelihood of pulling a random value this far from the expectation value by chance is about 5%; the likelihood of it happening twice is 5% squared: about 0.03%.
Feel free to twiddle with different expectation values and expected loss rates; you'll find the odds are strongly against these values coming up by chance.
The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart.
Roughly 80 parcels and roughly 40 days' delay means that the mean was increased by about half a day. Discarding that one outlying datum, the atheist packages still would have averaged 2.5 days longer for delivery. Among the ones that were delivered at all....
~Idarubicin
We run a catholic website and have had several customer call us to tell us that when they order from us, their mailman beats the packages up. Sometimes they get the packaging opened with nothing in it but our invoice. They order other stuff and it's fine. We mostly sell simple books, so it's not like people are taking gold items.
I think some mailmen have it in for some of these groups.
It's unbelievable but we get this call about twice per month. Same customers over and over so we know it's not the post office handling system as we have a lot of return customers. Those guys now have to go with fedex or ups if they don't want the post office to destroy their stuff.
So?
Tu couque is not a valid logical rebuttal.
Kettles are still black even if it's the pot saying so.
And reading comprehension still isn't your thing. If they all originated from the same location it could be one individual in that one location that's losing packages for them. It could also be that they're being flagged for inspection. It's more than likely designed to get free advertising. Athiests have an incredible tendency to whine loudly about everything. They're almost as bad as gays in that regard.
Who in the US will decapitate you because your not a Muslim? The Taliban position is that not only is this acceptable, it is the appropriate action. A delayed package hardly seems morally equivalent.
Unacceptable, Yes. Just as unacceptable as my political stickers getting my car keyed. I am a fiscal conservative (libertarian, The government should stay out of my bedroom, my back pocket, my whole damn life where possible). Obamanuts keyed my car, scratched up and defaced my "Nobama" sticker as well as my "You are not Entitled to MY paycheck" and my "I pay for my Kids, you pay for yours" stickers.
So, though I do not know the specifics, I assume more Athiests are not conservative. That said, both sides have their religious nutballs. One is Christians, one is Obama-ites.
So why don't dont both sides express a little more Tolerance? Because neither side finds it in thier best interests.
And just as my own little tweak, though i have seen defaced Darwin fish, I have seen many more defaces Christian Fish and conservative bumper stickers. Just my observation...
I love you
"The '3 days longer' statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart."
Why are you wasting time speculating on this when it's a 1-minute algebra problem? Looking only at the 85 cases that responded with dates, let x = average of the other 84 cases. So (84x+37)/85 = 3.03 --> 84x+37 = 257.55 --> 84x = 220.55 --> x = 2.62, which rounded to the nearest day, is still 3 days.
And this is actually generous, assuming that the non-branded packages were delivered in zero days; whatever the non-branded delivery time was, it reduces the effect of the Mississippi time even more.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
You can't prove that a Darwin fish is more likely to be stolen than a Palin-Huckabee 2016 sticker. Or, for that matter, a Mitt Romney one
http://twitchy.com/2012/09/29/got-a-romney-bumper-sticker-or-yard-sign-watch-out-for-these-unhinged-libs/
In fact it would be interesting to test if bumper stickers expressing a minority opinion were more likely to be defaced than ones expressing a majority one - perhaps holders of minority opinions are more prone to defacement because they are minorities.
Also minority opinions may well be the majority in some areas. Maybe they want payback for mistreatment they suffered when they were in the minority.
You're best off without any stickers on your car, though. They're the most reliable indicator of road rage.
Agreed. If you tell complete strangers your political views you shouldn't be too surprised if some of them object in a crazy way.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
And do believe in every god other people claim exist?
He had faith that the study was done in a way that he could dismiss. So he didn't need to check the facts, as usual.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Probably in Levictus, alongside the bit about giving them bad haircuts if you're a barber.
You mean hipster kids didn't ask for those haircuts?
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
It means the USPS have Our Soles.
In related news:
Since when is BC a religioius institution? In a secular government: should taxpayers be forced to fund a religious institution?
You're as bad as the Christians, if you don't understand why they may be offended by that.
At the risk of feeding a troll: How on earth can you think he is "being as bad as the Christians" when both sides express an opinion, and only the Christians under discussion resort to vandalism?
You can thank me below
Mein name ist Von Below.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Good idea. I will send the suggestion to that company. They can send a bunch of shoes in my size to where I live and then I will send them out to other people to see if they get them. :)
Actually, IAAS (I am a statistician).
Thanks for the clarification. I was going to assume you were "Infrastructure as a Service" otherwise.
and with that i will close with yes Atheism is a Faith since Faith answers the question of Who is At Fault (for the big questions of Life)
How exactly does atheism answer that question? It doesn't. The only question atheism answers is "do you believe in a deity?"
Sad, really... I mean, most of us don't exactly love our jobs. We may enjoy some parts of it, but on the whole, we'd still rather sleep in. But we get up every day to earn an honest day's pay. If you need to slack off a bit, hey, just don't get caught; but when you start taking out your lack of a fulfilling life on the very products they pay you to handle - GTFO.
There is a common misconception that the people at the various carriers are well paid, and should be happy to have good paying jobs, but you have to remember, that only the high seniority people are making anywhere close to top rate. Starting wages are pretty close to minimum wage, and are in fact less than Mcdonalds advertises. When you take out union dues, the amount is actually less than minimum wage. The new employee can look forward to reasonable raises, but its still part time only, and they're going to wait 10+ years before having enough seniority for a full time spot. All that time working part time for peanuts at a job that makes it difficult to hold down another part time job because it leaves you tired and sleep deprived, and you wonder why your packages get treated like crap. Its not the 20+ year veteran making a decent wage doing it, its the same kid that spits on your fries at Mcdonalds. He won't stay more than a few months anyway, so what does he care? Minimum wage in the US is a joke, and every one of these packages going by is a reminder to these guys of a lifestyle they will more than likely never be able to take part in.
Our country needs to re-evaluate its priorities when we lavishly reward banking executives for actively destroying the lives of millions just to increase their own profits, and then getting a bailout from those very same people whose lives they destroyed. Capitalism is as f***ed up as communism for very different reasons. The communists failed to account for greed in their world order, and the system got gamed by the greedy pretty quick. Capitalism survived for more than 200 years before the greedy figured out how to game the system. End result will be the same if we don't figure out how to get the greedy back to working for the system instead of gaming it...
-=Geoskd
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Oh and by the way : Germany \in Europe.
> I live in the South. This is Holy week. I have Christians constantly coming to my door to tell my about Jesus or, get this, switch to their church.
Offer them a piece of Matzoh and say that you're already covered.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Pity the poor downtrodden shoes!
They are stomped on repeatedly by a bunch of unbeliever !!
In another story if you send tow packet one without distinctive signs and the other marked Cosa Nostra, probably the marked parcel is delivered first....
... one more thing not to believe in?
design your boxes with crumplezones, cushions, and those clever little air bladders. Also, get the insurance.
The article states that they were all sent out on the same date. It's probably safe to assume that they were all taken to the post office or mail handlers at the same time.
There's no way of knowing if the samples arrived at the post office in separate, pre-sorted atheist/unmarked piles/sacks or if the post office then decided to sort them by markings themselves. Having samples done at different times can eliminate data 'bunching up' or samples interfering with each other.
So, I just want to ensure I understand correctly. This Berlin, Germany based company sent two packages to 89 people across 49 states and because 5% of the packages went missing and , Christians are to blame? I realize that conspiracy theories are fun and all but this isn't even a well orchestrated one. Just because you mail multiple items at the same time does not mean the recipient of said items will receive them at the same time. It seems a more likely that government bureaucracy are most likely more to blame to than Christian bigotry. Given Customs inspections, freight hauling and delivery, distance between ports of entry for mail delivery and processing times the numbers aren't that surprising to me. Now, I show me that all of the packages shipped on the same day, went into the same freight container or multiple containers but boarded the same container vessel or aircraft on the same day, said container or containers with all of the packages were or not inspected by Customs at the same time on the same day, and then that container or set of containers arrived to a sorting facility operated by the USPS on the same day and from there the packages were mishandled, then I would believe that there was something specifically wrong with the Postal Services. The company would also need to show evidence that no other company shipping into the US has had similar issues. I am open to the thought, but not based on this companies obvious marketing ploy.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.- Nietzsche
All the people I know who get their drugs through the mail (quite a few with the advent of medical marijuana) get them in extremely boring looking boxes/envelopes.
well there are certainly passages about destroying property of the non-believers (i.e. smashing their idols)
and killing them all (too many passages to cite)
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
You can have my Tux / BSD Daemon decals from my back window when you pry them from my COLD DEAD HANDS.
There is partial answer in the fine print:
"4 participants did not get back to us with their dates"
In other words, they asked of volunteers "when did you receive it?", rather than tracking the packages. Way too much room for bias and manipulation in this experiment. Even if you trust that they even did the experiment.
I don't know how to do this experiment fairly, since tracking the packages might make delivery more reliable so it'd spoil the test, but as performed, it was certainly a very flawed experiment.
That would be why they did the control experiment where they shipped them to other countries apart from the USA.
Which part of "international (as in not within EU economic zone)" confused you? US bound packages go through different handling. Controls destined for only "Europe and Germany" are insufficient. They should have shipped US bound packages from the US.
Retard.
This "experiment" is simply a claim made by a company that sells a product to a possibly marginalized community. What better way to sell a product to a marginalized community and to have an experiment exposing discrimination at the highest levels of the US government.
Has this company offered any documentation of this supposed "experiment?"
How do we know that it even took place?
How about the chain of custody?
As it stands, it's just a baseless claim without any evidence, much less proof.
LOL.
Why would anyone actually want their hair to look like that?
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Well, they were paired, so if the sack held 6 atheist packages, you'd think that there'd be 6 unmarked packages in that same sack too.
Unless of course, the 6 atheist packages were put in a different sack than the 6 unmarked packages, and said sack just so happened to have been "lost" in transit.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Spur of the moment malice against an obviously marked package?
I have always considered religion a disease...
Religion is a virus. A virus is a chunk of rogue program code that tempts a host into executing it, at which point the host is programmed to make copies of the code. Biological viruses have cells as hosts, and DNA or RNA as their program code. Computer viruses have computers as their hosts, and machine code as program code. Similarly, religions have minds as their hosts, with mind programs--ideas--as their program code.
The ultimate irony is that the Abrahamic religions don't believe in evolution, when it is precisely natural selection that led to their existence and dominance.
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
Where do you live now? I need to move there.
is checking out old cathedrals while backpacking through Europe, & that's about it.
BTW how come hardly any Yanks take a year or 2 off after leaving school, or deferring a year or 2 of uni, & go backpacking around the world? Gez in the average youth hostel one is more likely to find more Kiwis even than Yanks, & it's seems when one does find backpackers from North America, virtually all of them turn out to be from either British Columbia or Quebec.
The thing is, 2 packages, one Atheist marked and one unmarked, were sent to each destination. So if there was a problem somewhere (truck shipment got sent to the wrong place, etc.) you would expect equal numbers of marked and unmarked packages to get lost/be delayed. Why would a sack or something be stuffed with only the atheist and not the unmarked packages? If that happened, then that just shows the USPS treated those packages worse, proving the company's point.
Just once, but she was really hot, and her boyfriend was an asshole . . .
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
I once had a package of trees delivered by UPs that I found smashed and lying on the side of the road. I'm glad they didn't die. I don't know if its the same everywhere, but I'd rather have packages delivered by a flock of carrier pigeons than UPS.
Since these were sent from Berlin, all these packages had to clear customs, and it seems likely that a package closed with commercially-branded tape, "atheist" or otherwise, is more likely to be held for closer screening, as it is more likely to contain commercial goods. Thus, I wouldn't immediately assume USPS wrongdoing, but rather I would investigate how CBP handles packages like these.
There shouldn't be any government protected monopolies
Then you wouldn't have electricity outside of major urban areas, no cable TV, no satellite communications, no telephone service, no potable water, no sewer service, no hospitals for anyone but the rich, no universities for anyone but the rich, TB and smallpox would still kill millions every year, etc. Don't know what kind of hell hole you want to live in, but I don't particularly care for the world your viewpoint would have delivered us.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
If all you care about is who is at fault, God already took full responsibility. Speaking through his prophet Douglas Adams: "We apologize for the inconvenience."
Man, all this talk about faith when the facts are right there in front of our noses...
+1 Disagree
10 events out of 178 observations.
A simple statistical test comparing 9/89 to 1/89 gives a 95% CI for the difference in proportions as (0.025, 0.156), for a significance level of 0.01.
Even 9/89 vs. 2/89 has a p-value of 0.03.
(Wilson score w/out continuity correction, if you want to check my numbers).
Let's be reasonable -- this is a report by a group of people who have a bug up their rear about religion to the extent they want their shoes to be atheist. (Puns aside, what's religious about shoes, anyway, for Hitchens' sake?) I'm not particularly interested in reports like this from someone pushing an agenda that hard.
Likewise, I wouldn't be interested in hearing from the Phelps cult about packages festooned with their "God hates fags" crap getting lost in the mail, either.
Wrong on all counts. People would pay for the services delivered and different individual entrepreneurs would deliver them and services would be priced correctly. People wouldn't be subsidised to live in suburbia, which is quite unsustainable once the subsidies are removed, there would be much less pollution, abuse and congestion as well, by the way, if the market were allowed to work rather than having government subsidise all of the bad behaviour.
You can't handle the truth.
For the reasons you state, the test of statistical significance does not allow us to conclude that the "true" ratio is close to 9:1. The statistical test shows that the ratio is significantly greater than 1. This is the interesting claim, and this conclusion should meet your criterion of "statistical rigour".
I take it you've never lived on a farm or in a small town. If government subsidies and monopolies did not require that utilities supply service to everyone then the only farms in the Untied States that would have electricity would be those owned by ADM and Monsanto, because normal farmers couldn't have afforded to have wires strung through miles of farmland. The poor would still be drinking river water and crapping in the street, because there is no incentive to dig up the streets and lay pipe for people whose bills won't pay for the infrastructure investment for two decades or more. If prices were raised to the point where the infrastructure payoff was in a time span considered reasonable by businesses water and sewer service would be unaffordable for most.
services would be priced correctly
So fuck the poor and middle class, civilization is only for the rich. I'd love to see how your phantasmagorical entrepreneurs would compete on price for delivering potable water to a neighborhood.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
So fuck the poor and middle class, civilization is only for the rich
You're only starting to scratch the surface of roman_mir's fascist fantasy. He believes that civilization is only for those who can afford it, for sure. He also believes that democracy is abhorrent and representation is only entitled to the rich. Similarly he believes that the legal system - including criminal prosecution and defense - only needs to be available to those with money. This all comes from the church that roman_mir goes to - the church of ron paul.
Yes, in roman_mir's fantasy world, it is civilization, government, and laws for the rich - and fascism for the people.
Maybe they were inspecting them for drugs, given that "atheist" is a weird brand name? Yes, that could explain losses too. Things that get special screening are plenty likely to get lost.
I don't presume God exists, he's shown himself to me. Your presumption that all religious people are schitzophrenic is bigotry.
I take it you've never lived on a farm or in a small town.
- I lived in a very wide variety of places, including very small towns, but that's not the point. The point is that you are insisting that in the free market people would not find solutions satisfying demands of potential customers to make money and thus you are supporting an increase in everybody's prices rather than allowing people to pay for their true costs themselves. How come people are against 'socialising costs and privatising gains' when it comes to businesses but can't understand that they are supporting the exact same thing, outsourcing costs, hiding true cost of doing things like living on a farm for example?
Yes, it SHOULD be more expensive for a farmer to get private electrical service and whatever, he would have to price his productive output accordingly. The reason for him living on a farm is either to be a productive farmer or because he likes that type of living.
If he is there because he likes that type of living, he should bear his costs, nobody has to subsidise what he likes, just like nobody should be subsidising people living in coastal cities with government taking care of flood insurance, etc.
If he is on a farm because he is a farmer, he should bear the full costs of being a farmer and price his output correctly, so the food he produces would include the proper costs of running a farm. Of-course there shouldn't be any subsidies to farmers to grow anything particular or not to grow anything at all (as is the case in many parts of the world, where people are subsidised not to grow anything, as long as they exhibited that they 'tried being a farmer' and they failed all of a sudden they get a subsidy at the cost to the entire society.
All prices would be lower for all people if government wasn't in business of subsidising any of those products and services.
So fuck the poor and middle class, civilization is only for the rich. I'd love to see how your phantasmagorical entrepreneurs would compete on price for delivering potable water to a neighborhood.
- Walmart is the largest, most profitable Western retail chain delivering cheapest goods to the largest customer base in the world probably.
A company that sells to the poor becomes extremely rich because that's the market where the most money is and figuring out how to satisfy their demands will make you very very wealthy, this includes water as well.
You can't handle the truth.
A company that sells to the poor becomes extremely rich because that's the market where the most money is and figuring out how to satisfy their demands will make you very very wealthy, this includes water as well.
Agreed. When the bottom 60% hold a whopping 4.2% of the wealth a company would be just downright foolish to not focus on this market, because clearly that's where all the money it. This is why Apple has never been able to turn a profit.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
I hate to rain on your parade, but...
So fuck the poor and middle class, civilization is only for the rich.
Walmart is the largest, most profitable Western retail chain delivering cheapest goods to the largest customer base in the world probably.
Only a fascist would look at Walmart and think "there's a company that is good for the poor and the middle class". Walmart destroys jobs, communities, families, and employees. They drive other stores out of business. They drive down the value of real estate. They force employees to work terrible hours for terrible wages and as little for benefits as possible.
In other words, they are a fascist's dream come true. Of-course, your dream world is utter fascism so it fits well for you.
I'd love to see how your phantasmagorical entrepreneurs would compete on price for delivering potable water to a neighborhood.
A company that sells to the poor becomes extremely rich because that's the market where the most money is and figuring out how to satisfy their demands will make you very very wealthy, this includes water as well.
That is a whole lot of verbage with pretty well zero substance. Do you actually have an example of a for-profit company running pipes underground for water delivery? No, of course not.
As I said before, your dream state - a dream reinforced by your church - involves freedom, opportunity, civilization, democracy, and justice for the wealthy, and fascism for the people.
There shouldn't be any government protected monopolies, private sectors deals with people's needs, whether they are atheists or Muslims or whatever. Government will lose your package if you are an atheist, and I don't want to get into what they will do to you if you are a Muslim.
Your church distributes plenty of material through USPS, and it doesn't seem to get lost at a higher rate than anything else. You pretend to believe in freedom to do WTF someone wants, so why do you care if atheists are not getting their packages through, when your religious material goes through just fine? A true libertarian would say fuck 'em! and instruct them to find a different carrier or start their own. After all, a lost atheist package doesn't hurt you!
Yet DHL, UPS, Fedex are regulated under law, which makes them liable to lawsuits, to 'provide equal access' and all that nonsense, while in reality they want to provide the best customer service in order to win against competition.
Clearly this is the case. FedEx, UPS, and DHL all refuse to deliver to the dock of my lake front cabin, while USPS does, but I'm sure they would if not for discrimination preventing them from buying a boat or something.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
Lets see if you at least switch to agnostic.
Start with http://listverse.com/2008/07/14/top-10-astonishing-miracles/
continue with http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2009/05/scientifically-documented-miracles.html
(And being Catholic I don't necessarily accept all of them because they don't meet my churches rules for documentation and thoroughness although being scientific I mention them as potential data points)
Then take a read of the Catholic churches rules for what must be true and what must not be true to be recorded as a miracle at http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles.html
then go and read the accounts associated with the canonization of any of the several saints canonized through the 19th, 20th and 21st century's.
No evidence, none, nothing whatsoever?
Umm I think you might be mistaken here.
Cheers!
Presbyterians no. Baptists yes. You obviously never been to the South
The fact that it said "AVERAGE of three days longer" should have clued anyone in that this was not research done by a statistician, but unscientific folks out to prove a point. A statistician would have said "mean" rather than "average", except he wouldn't point to the mean, he'd point to the median.
What was the median length? The mean is meaningless.
I've only had a quick look at your first link. Those seem to be evidence of people's astonishing capacity to believe things and the lengths that they (possibly unconsciously) will go to to project meaning to events.
e.g. The weeping/bleeding statue probably started off with some discoloured rainwater coming off the statue. Some people noticed it and declared it to be blood and there was suddenly a lot more interest in it. It's far more likely that believers then added their own blood to the statue to increase the interest rather than the statue is some kind of miracle. The tested blood was a variety of blood types, so the idea probably occurred to several people.
It's very easy to find confirmation of pet theories/beliefs and those kind of things are self perpetuating. The interesting evidence is where you can perform an experiment and declare that one particular outcome would disprove the theory.
If you could state a theory such as "eating M&Ms cause invisible pink unicorns to materialise and become visible around you", then we could test that and see that it is false. Religion never provides us with anything that concrete.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
is likely to blame... these were mailed *from germany* to the usa using regular post.
do the same "test" with the parcels mailed from inside the us and you will see different results.
Were the marchers in Selma as bad as the Sheriff and deputies who beat them back across the bridge for offending white political power?
Should the mother of Emmett Till have been more understanding in how offended white men would be for a black boy daring to speak to a white woman?
So, are you saying that atheist packages came from Canada and had the same fail rates? Sending them from Canada or other countries into the US would be scientific, wouldn't it?
testing out my trending skills
While I have absolutely no doubt about the rampant hypocrisy many Christians display, I've never quite understood how that or anything else could lead one to worship Satan. I mean, think about it. You're going to buy in to the whole Judeo-Christian belief system, accept that the mythology of the Bible is real, that Yahweh and the Devil actually exist as genuine supernatural beings, which is to say gods, you accept all that, and then what do you do? Why, you sign up with the losing side! What else, it's the natural thing to do.
Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?
Why in the WORLD wouldn't you tell us which delivery service?!? This is as bad as when there's something in the news about "people using an ATM at a certain store may have had their bank information stolen", but absolutely refuse to mention which place. Or that an APP is stealing money from your account or whatever, and there's NEVER any mention of which APP. And you're not even saying this on a news program, it's a message board!
Let us know what place shouldn't have our business because they're corrupt, so that we aren't burned the exact same way you are! Hell, check the box to post anonymously if you're so damned worried about it getting back to you.
They didn't ship from other countries to the USA. Also, just having "atheist" or "Christian" on the tape might confuse them, if they never heard of a religious brand of shoe. It would confuse me.
I ship to the USA on occasion, from Canada, and I need to fill out a form. Despite having done it several times, it still does seem odd. I believe that 1 slip up could easily confuse them.
This story is an example of why I never trust atheists to be impartial to the evidence, or to philosophy, or to morals.
I will admit that it is very suspicious that only certain packages get delayed, but I would never assume that it is hatred of "atheism".
testing out my trending skills
The atheists and the christians and the creationists and the evolutionists... All just as dogmatic as the other with no proof they're right. Evolution is the only theory that is touted around as a law when the physical evidence doesn't support it. Creationism is not supported by physical evidence. Atheists might as well all get together in a building one day out of the week and talk about how much the christians are wrong and pass around a donation bucket.
There isn't just one "missing link", there are hundreds (if not thousands). The universe is entropic. Except when life evolves. That's an exception.
Genesis can be interpreted literally. Most of the christian bible can be. Our "creator" is not omnipotent. Just highly advanced in engineering biological machines and terraforming planets. And there were/are some other advanced beings meddling in all these affairs today. Maybe even a group of banished "rebels" or "fallen angels" that didn't believe in the "free will" of the human machine.
I have no proof of this. Just a belief. Just like everyone else.
This is somewhat similar to a situation in my field. I work as a customs broker, and if we submit something to customs tagged as "driver waiting", it's pretty much guaranteed to take twice as long to be accepted as if I were to have just submitted it regularly.
obviously an act of God! -now be careful that you do not anger him again or something bad may happen sometime to you in the future (up to and including death)
-I'm just sayin'
Sounds like Customs is to blame.
Well, you'd think an industrialised nation would have gotten over the imaginary friend thing.
you are insisting that in the free market people would not find solutions
You're right, that's exactly what I'm saying because that is exactly what history shows us. The value of clean drinking water and sewers have been known for centuries, but as long as society has relied on the capitalist market to provide them only the wealthy have had such things. That is still true today in the Third World where IMF/WB proscriptions on social spending have been imposed. If you want I'll walk with you around the slums of Lima or Recife, and then around the slums of Caracas where the socialistic government has concentrated infrastructure spending. Where capitalism is the provider of services the neighborhoods of the poor host huge garbage piles and empty lots become the local latrine, and contaminated water is delivered in filthy trucks for the highest price the market will bear. I'm not exaggerating at all, we have relatives that live in Los Olivos in Lima, I defy you to stay with them for a weekend to see what their lives are really like and then go home and claim that the holy free market is providing adequately for their needs.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
You're right, that's exactly what I'm saying because that is exactly what history shows us.
- you are misreading history.
as long as society has relied on the capitalist market to provide them only the wealthy have had such things
- a society without free markets will not provide solutions for everybody, that is true, that is why society needs free markets to allow individuals to try and make their own fortunes by figuring out how to provide people with the products and services they need.
The wealthy never needed free market, they had their services as you correctly noted, it was the free markets, markets free from government intervention that created the capitalist system, which means system of private ownership and operation of property and thus of means of production. The free market allows people to be equal before law, which is what was often missing other types of societies. When you do not have equality before law, when some people are more equal than others because they are part of the ruling elite, that is when you get the wealthy few who get whatever they desire and a very large population who do not have their needs satisfied.
It is exactly the necessary combination of private ownership and operation of property and the equal protections of individuals, their right to operate property without being impeded by the law. The ability not to be discriminated against, protection against government discrimination and thus preferential treatment of some people as opposed to equal treatment under law of all people, this ability is what gave capitalism the boost, the tools needed to allow the majority of people to get the same type of products and services that the wealthy could always afford.
A wealthy member of elite does not care if there is such a product as a washing machine for example. He doesn't care if there is a system to provide clean water to the market. He can pay to have his clean water and have his laundry done by somebody on staff.
It is the capitalism within the paradigm of free market that allowed the rest of the people to enjoy the same services and products as the wealthy always could enjoy. Free market capitalism lifts all boats, without free market, without equal protection under law it doesn't really matter what the system of property ownership is, because most people won't have their right to own and operate property unhindered. They will suffer discrimination, their property will be taken away, they will not be able to keep the fruits of their own labour.
Unfortunately what you are actually advocating for without realising it is exactly that type of a system while believing that you are proposing a 'better' system. It's not better at all, because it doesn't rely on equal treatment by law, it requires discrimination and various types of oppression against most people to allow few to dominate.
The examples that you cite do not include places where people are actually equal before law and have their right to own and operate private property protected against government stealing and redistributing it. The real examples of free market capitalism are not found in Caracas but in Singapore or Hong Kong or Switzerland. Unfortunately USA can no longer boast to have free market capitalism either.
Capitalism for some and oppression is not what I am proposing.
You can't handle the truth.
Really? Is slashdot so threatened that you get modded down for pointing out much more plausible causes to a non-statistical report than some big consipiracy with the USPS? Ironically, I purchase their shoes and I am not a theist, but I guess, that just because one relies on reason instead of superstition does not mean you can question faulty science and statistics if the intent is to mock others.
Not if their scanning software got confused on the extra words and the package was directed to a different pile for manual inspection.
Why do religious people consider "god fearing" to be a compliment? According to them, god is good and just; a person who fears god must be an evil person expecting divine retribution.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
You do realize that the world you describe in your second and third paragraphs never actually existed, don't you? You remind me a lot of the old Stalinists that I knew back in the 80s, for whom the purges and the Ukrainian famine never happened.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Honestly I don't see it that way at all. I wonder how many people even know atheist products are shoes. Recognition of a common word vs a company that no one has heard of (lets face it they aren't Nike), I think religion is by far the simpler theory.
Also, without having the raw data that they used the best we can conclude is that the 37 days may have had a significant difference on the total
No. Thats not how math works. Even using only 80 packages, the most impact on the average delay that the 37 day delay for a single package could cause is 0.46 days per package.
This is the problem with the current generation right here. You don't even have a basic math foundation in which to filter yourselves from making extremely stupid comments.
"His name was James Damore."
BTW, you really didn't get it. Caracas, where the poor are getting potable water and sewage systems, is the anti-free-market example. Lima and Recife, where people have to buy dirty water by the bucketful, are the free market examples.
Hong Kong? Where businesses need the approval of the Chinese Communist Party to operate? Switzerland? Seriously?
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
We will only be equal before the law when the weight of person's vote is directly proportional to the amount of land they own. Until then we as a nation are just a bunch of takers, a handful of makers, and a whole lot of takers who believe that they're makers.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
Free markets mean treating your employees like shit, and by this measure China has some of the freest markets in the world.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
I don't know if you live in USA, but that was one of the examples where free market capitalism happened, you are the guy 'denying purges and famine in Ukraine', only you don't know USA history of free market capitalism building the productive capacity in America.
Today China has a system much closer to the free market then most of the rest of the world, that's how it was able to bring about 350 million people out of poverty in 30 years, not by the Communist Party building stuff, but by Communist Party letting go of people's desire to satisfy their own demand and allowing them to own private property. Even with all the corruption in China, it is still one of the most preferred places for business in the world today, that's where all the capital has gone.
You can't handle the truth.
Again, none of those places actually have free markets. To have free markets there has to be as little government regulations as possible while having private property rights protected equally. Chinese Communist Party is not the economy in China, obviously they hold the political power, yet the people are allowed to operate in a mostly free market. They would be much better off if they stopped controlling the currency in a central way. And yes, Singapore and Switzerland, seriously. Of-course now Switzerland is also centrally controlling the currency by fixing it against the Euro at a stupid 1.2 level, hopefully we'll have this overturned soon enough.
You can't handle the truth.
The least government regulation, and thus the freest market, is found on Mars, thus all the smart businesses will be moving there soon enough.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
To have free markets there has to be as little government regulations as possible while having private property rights protected equally.
Government must not, and is not authorized to protect private property rights, as doing so necessarily requires stealing people's private property. Property rights will be protected just fine once the government stops interfering with free market protection services.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
No. Thats not how math works. Even using only 80 packages, the most impact on the average delay that the 37 day delay for a single package could cause is 0.46 days per package.
Actually, the reporting said that the raw numbers were for 3.03 so if it were not for that outlier the actual average would be 2.57 days which is right on that cusp were another outlier could have thrown things off.
Which brings things back around to my original point: without the original data or at least a reported standard deviation we are grasping at straws. If they came back a report of 3.03 days with a standard deviation of 0.2 then we can safely conclude that the outlier didn't have much of an impact. However, if the standard deviation was 1 or more then it would have had a significant impact and would indicate skewed results.
This is the problem with the current generation right here. You don't even have a basic math foundation in which to filter yourselves from making extremely stupid comments.
Stupid question, but how would you even know what generation I belong to let alone what my mathmatical background is?
It might be safe to say that 1/10 of the routes that was smart enough to see two packages being sent to the same person with the same return address and one being branded atheist.
So the government's only role is as an enforcer for the corporations? No. Not just 'no', but 'no fucking way no!' What the hell is wrong with you?
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
How do you read my comments and come to that conclusion? First of all there shouldn't even be a government provided corporate charter, which abdicates personal responsibility, creates a moral hazard.
The only role for the government is to enforce individual rights and contract law and protect borders against invasion.
You can't handle the truth.
Damn, so much stupid in such a short post.
Yes, I live in the Untied States, and apparently know a fuck of a lot more about its history than you do. You have heard of the word 'tariff', haven't you? Until Ronnie Raygun's Badministration the supposed "free market capitalism" in the US was protected from foreign competition by tariffs, some of them rather egregiously blatant blocks of specific competitors. The railroads, mining industry, timber industry, the settlement of the entire Midwest by farmers, the ranching industry, and the petrochemical industry all exist exclusively because of government land grants. The airline industry only exists because of the network of airports built by state, local and federal government, and the passenger airlines would never have been a large scale success without the government-imposed safety and inspection regulations that made that form of travel safe.
Even with all the corruption in China
You actually mean "because of all the corruption", don't you? Without it they would never be allowed to dump MEK directly into the rivers, contaminating potable water supplied downstream for hundreds of miles. Without the corruption they wouldn't be allowed to run unsafe mines that kill hundreds of people a year. Without it they wouldn't be able to force hourly employees to work hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime. Without corruption they wouldn't be able to seize farm plots that have belonged to families for centuries to site their new factories. The corruption is one of the things that make operating in China so attractive to the mega-corporations.
Apparently you're too young to remember why the EPA and the various consumer protection agencies exist. I suggest you go talk to your grandparents and ask them about the Cuyahoga River burning, about the bubble-head children, about the families who died of starvation in the Depression, and the mercury babies. Business needs to be more tightly regulated, not less. Every single time that public/government control of business is relaxed it causes havoc and destruction. Every single time. You can't point to a time where unregulated businesses didn't attempt to seize the property of others (generally the commons) for their own gains. That is the nature of businesses and businessmen, greed and rapaciousness are not virtues to normal people, and they certainly are not assets to society.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
A study conducted in this way could show that a box with custom "Atheist" label on the tape is treated differently than a normal box. Tons of people think this means bias towards atheists. If the study didn't start off with a confirmation bias, a different box would have had another, maybe "christian".
Otherwise this is just a study on adding extra designations to see if they affect the shipping in the US. Still an interesting experiment, but you have to realize what it is testing.
Besides, you're asking them to read an extra word. That is a built-in delay right there.
Assuming they're not faking the data...
An infographic posted to a commercial website trying to sell us stuff? How could we doubt that?
Damn, so much stupid in such a short post.
- your comments are not just stupid, they are reeking of hate.
No, you don't know anything about the country you live in. Reagan talked a good game, but he never cut any spending, he increased spending and he did also raise taxes. He didn't anything that he promised at all, so there was no 'free market capitalism' during his administration, not even a little bit. Tariffs are one way to fund government, but as a currency or more correctly trade war measure they eventually fail because they are there to protect the falling value of the fake currency.
The real free market in USA existed prior to the Fed's new mandate to monetise Treasury debt, which was given to it by the Congress in 1917. That's when free market capitalism took a serious blow in USA, when the growth of the government became unstoppable. Of-course that was a second blow, the first was IRS with the income taxes, which ensured that both: the government would grow as a percentage of production rather than consumption (which government is, it's all consumption, in fact it's luxury consumption) and destruction of individual freedom not to be property of the State. The income tax immediately changes the status of a person from a free human being to something else entirely, property of the State, and the State decides just how much productivity (labour, work) the person will be forced to give up to the government, the collective.
Energy companies, petrochemical, etc., they were doing just fine in USA prior to 1911, when the government destroyed the largest economy of scale. Standard Oil was the company that drove prices down for over 40 years, from 50 cents a gallon to 5.9 cents a gallon and in the process the owners of the company became some of the richest people in history. Once S.O. was destroyed, the oil prices never went down again. A government with its tariffs breaks your legs and gives you crutches, and now you have to thank it for the ability to crawl again?
As to China, the Chinese government prior to the industrialisation of the country was dumping all the pollutants it ever wanted anywhere it wanted.
It takes a wealthy nation to become aware and to be able to pay for clean environment. China was not a wealthy nation 30 years ago, today it is. Now it can start looking at environment on a case by case basis, clearly they have work to do, but they are some of the freest people in terms of ability to do business and thus in terms of ability to build savings, capital.
They have capital, the CAN take care of their environment and as the government of China will have to drop the fixed exchange rate to the US dollar and the Chinese consumer will become more affluent, the people in China will demand that their industries take care of the pollution, and it will have nothing to do with government.
Government cannot fix anything, it can't build anything, it can't generate wealth, it can destroy it. It will be companies solving the pollution problems.
EPA exists because of complete corruption by the government, which completely abdicated its responsibility to protect private property rights of individuals. Public "property" is the reason for pollution.
In fact earlier in this thread I mentioned this: you are going to talk about 'socialising costs and privatising gains', like you are doing right now, but you are on the side of government socialising costs and privatising gains when it comes to other types of monopolies, like USPS, which you like apparently for some reason.
So you like USPS and yet you don't like other forms of government protection, which lead to the pollution in the environment, because those forms of protection act to protect various large interests, monopoly interests created by the government, but they completely spit on the rights of individual private property owner.
Business does not need to be regulated at all, in fact US Congress does not even have that authority to regulate business, it has
You can't handle the truth.
Oh, and the depression was caused by the government, the Federal reserve monetising bad UK debt, same as the Fed is doing now monetising US debt, and this monetisation created the bubble in the stock market, which blew up (like the stock market bubble of the nineties and the housing bubble, also caused by the Fed and FDIC and FHA, HUD, F&F, but primarily Fed and FDIC).
But before the Great Depression there was no FDIC, HUD, F&F, there was only the Fed, and that was enough to cause that recession. Then Hoover's and FDR's policies turned that recession into the depression, which lasted until 1947, when USA finally cut its spending by 60% and taxes by overall 30%. Similar to the spending and tax cuts in 1921, when that depression was also ended because gov't spending was cut by 70% by Harding. That depression was also caused by the money printing.
Of-course the fifties and sixties were the time of huge government expansion and terrible suppression of the free market, with taxes that caused people to create entire industries that would help them to avoid being taxed instead of being free to build new industries and businesses. That growth of gov't caused the collapse of the dollar and that's when Nixon defaulted on the gold dollar in 1971. That's when USA started seeing massive outflows of capital, as savers were running for the hills. That's when real GDP growth stopped, that's when inflation truly kicked off, that's when people's real earnings started going down, as they became less and less productive due to the capital outflow.
For the last 40 years US government has been pumping and inflating one bubble in the economy after another, and that's what is happening to the economy today - it's on its last legs, can't take anymore pumping. The bond bubble with implode and will take the dollar with it and that's when the era of huge government will come to an end.
Of-course the government won't go that easy, it may even try to implement martial law, declaring a state of emergency. Such things happen as people turn to just about anybody who promises to solve the problems. Last time a major event like that happen it was in Germany in 1933.
You can't handle the truth.
Public "property" is the reason for pollution.
That is one of the strangest statements that I've seen you make. How does the existence of the Cuyahoga River cause pollution? (Well, except for being full of dihydrogen monoxide.) Let's avoid large sweeping statements and focus on this one example for clarity. The river was bordered by chemical, paint and plastic factories. Since there was no regulation on those businesses waste was dumped into the river for decades, and finally it spontaneously combusted several times one summer. It was a historical flash point (no pun intended) which directly caused the creation of the EPA.
Is your position that the problem was caused by the river not having an owner? That can't be the case, since nothing would have stopped the owner from just accepting payments from the business owners to dump their waste. If not, what are you trying to say?
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Precisely, not having an owner is the problem. I have made comments on this very issue previously (a number of times), here is a thread on the same topic so I don't have to repeat it again.
You can't handle the truth.
Atheists == communists, don'cha know?
Well not really, but that was the big fear in the 50s, and old prejudices die hard.
I think, mostly likely, it's a reaction from True Believers to an Other. When there's no markings on the package, the true believer is likely to think there's a good chance that it comes from another true believer.
But "Atheist" on the packaging, declaring itself intentionally, explicitly, to be an Other? The True Believer might think "these are not my people. These are people I don't like. They fight against my faith. Oops, their package was 'lost.' What a tragedy."
pie recipes in spiderman?
Yes, Hostess pies. Their delicious cherry filling is perfect for catching Dr. Octopus.
OMG. I loved those Hostess ads. I couldn't find one with Doctor Octopus (I remember one though), but this one is my favorite for sheet WTF-ness:
http://www.seanbaby.com/hostess/v2spiderman17.htm
I wonder if Apple (or any other coveted brand) prominently labeled their shipments with their business name, they would also experience a decrease in successful shipments. Perhaps the brand is recognized, and workers are stealing them...
Is your position that the problem was caused by the river not having an owner? That can't be the case, since nothing would have stopped the owner from just accepting payments from the business owners to dump their waste. If not, what are you trying to say?
Eventually the privately owned river would run into a privately owned ocean, at which point the owner of the ocean could sue for damages, assuming he had the foresight to own or lease a court of law. He could then send his privately owned sheriff to seize the assets of the original polluter.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
Ah, I had forgotten that the Libertardian solution to all social problems is horizon-to-horizon herds of lawyers. Thanks for the reminder.
.
And I thought that Scientology was a bizarre religion . .
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
No, the absence of the moral hazard provided by the government takes care of that particular problem, which by the way has exploded during the half socialist half fascist state of affairs now found in USA given all the regulations and rules that exist, which is exactly why there are so many lawyers - to argue about the rules and regulations.
It is the abundance of government created rules and regulations (and taxes obviously) that provides the endless opportunity for lawsuits, not absence of regulations and only protections of individual freedoms. Protections of individual freedoms don't require much in terms of court time as long as there is no case by government to steal the freedoms (something you are advocating).
You can't handle the truth.
I have a conjecture that this is related to DHS, and NOT USPS. One test for this would be to do the same experiment from inside the US.
I'm just thinking that packages that are taped with ATHEIST tape probably attract more homeland security attention when coming into the country than other packages. If you want to try another experiment, try packages that are stamped with CHRISTIAN, and see if they get the same treatment. Then try MUSLIM or ALLAHU AKBAR and see what happens.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
It would take 7 packages each with 37 days extra (the largest extra delay observed) to explain the 3 days average extra shipping time..
You do know that outliers are samples that are far from the population, right? If there are 7 or more out of 80 or 89, then they are not far from the population. At that point they are representative of the population.
At what point do you admit that you arent actually educated enough to have been equipped with the skills necessary to make reasonable arguments?
"His name was James Damore."
If we did away with the idea that government was responsible for protecting individual liberties we could stop stealing capital from private ownership to pay for a court system. Any government powerful enough to protect individual liberties will necessarily be powerful enough to infringe individual liberties. It's far more just to let individuals and the free market protect their own liberties.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
Wait.. how does "Atheist shoes" tip one off that this package is a bomb? I can understand "God's last stand!", even as a Christian, but what's so unusual about "Atheist shoes"? Any idea what's threatening about it?
This is why air pollution is such a huge problem. Property owners need to start claiming ownership of all the airspace above their land. Airlines can negotiate with individual property owners for the right to fly in their airspace. Unauthorized aircraft can be dealt with the same way you would deal with any other trespasser.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
The only role for the government is to enforce individual rights and contract law and protect borders against invasion.
Individual taxpayer's rights, you mean. If you don't pay taxes you don't deserve the right to vote, and once you give up the right to vote, or any other right for that matter, you give up ALL rights.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
If the packages had been shipped from 10 locations within the US the test would be 10 times more valid. One clerk where the packages were received from Germany could have been responsible for most of the missing packages.
While it does seem that the experiment was conducted properly (with the right controls and a decent sample), what we don't know is what the take-away actually is. The experiment group was one sort of "provocative" branding and the control was neutral branding. The one big take-away is that there appears to be some bias in USPS. It may be that atheism is indeed the principal subject of the bias, but there may be other explanations. Is there a general bias against politically or sociologically charged messages within branding? Are there different rates of biases against different kinds of messages? Does that bias appear local, uniform, or tied to certain major hubs? As always, more research is needed.
Alexey
Yes, it's a faith in exactly the same way that not watching TV is a channel. Glad we can all agree on that. ;)
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
It would take 7 packages each with 37 days extra (the largest extra delay observed) to explain the 3 days average extra shipping time..
First, I'm not saying that the vast majority of the packages where delivered on time as it is really hard to get a three day difference like that without a significant quantity of packages being delivered after the plain taped packages. Also, considering that the authors didn't mention that there were a number of packages arriving outside of that three day delivery window, I'm assuming that most of them arrived within that three day delivery window. Thus, the following would work to give you an average of 3.025 days:
1 Day - 5
2 Days - 42
3 Days - 12
4 Days - 20
37 Days - 1
However, that also gives a standard deviation of 3.933 days which implies that the outlier is having a significant impact upon the results. Removing that outlier (dropping it completely) gives us an average of 2.59 days and a standard deviation of 0.93 which is in line with what we would expect. Granted this would still clearly indicate that there is a discrepancy from the plain tape package.
You do know that outliers are samples that are far from the population, right? If there are 7 or more out of 80 or 89, then they are not far from the population. At that point they are representative of the population.
Yes, I know that and I believe that I just demonstrated why it is important to know the standard deviation when discussing this data as well.
At what point do you admit that you arent actually educated enough to have been equipped with the skills necessary to make reasonable arguments?
Likely around the same time that you admit that I might actually know what I'm talking about, although I if I mention the fact that I work with hidden Markov models will you at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I've had a couple math courses in my day?
the p-value is 0.018 for Fisher's exact test.
which is to say, if you took every possible assignment of the 10 total losses and assigned them at random to the 178 packages (89 labeled, 89 not) without regard for the ATHEIST labeling, you would get such a disparity (i.e. either 1 non-labeled and 9 labeled, or all 10 labeled) only 1.8% of the time.
take that for what you will. there are flaws in the ``study," for sure, but the sample size is not one of them.
Why exactly do they assume that it's USPS discarding packages? My money is on Customs or whatever they call themselves now. They should re-run the experiment, this time shipping the packages from an origin somewhere in the US.
1. Send the package unmarked and be done with it. 2. Use another shipper (it is a free market) 3. Get your customers their packages to them on time .4. By changing shippers you will keep the USPS employees form wearing your brand. 4. Get on with your life. It is not right or wrong it just is. Why make a big deal about it. I was going to add who cares but obviously your do.
It's not a "mental problem", only an ill-informed and confused layperson would describe it that way. It's a psychological phenomenon based on the human psyche and evolutionary needs for adaption when meeting changing circumstances. It's no problem, it's a natural reaction that can have clear advantages in terms of survival.
The package wont get lost, you will become "lost" when the police come knocking, and unlike charges of rape, murder, child molesting, etc you wont have any legal defense possible once accused.
Removing that outlier (dropping it completely) gives us an average of 2.59 days
Exactly as I said but you seemed to want to argue against it. You argued that there was a population makeup where the outliers had a significant impact, but you cannot actually produce one.
"His name was James Damore."
Sorry, but this is a flawed test. All they've proven is that a package with an odd label on it will get delayed or lost. They should also have labelled boxes with "Jesus Saves" to see if those also get delayed or lost. I'm certain I am not the only one that would be tempted to throw a box like that in the "delay" bin or whatever it is they did to cause delays.
Exactly as I said but you seemed to want to argue against it. You argued that there was a population makeup where the outliers had a significant impact, but you cannot actually produce one.
You keep ignoring when I'm talking about standard deviation which leads me to believe that you don't know what it is or why it is important to this conversation. This also proves that there is no point in arguing with you. So fine, you win, I bow to your superior intellect and clearly doing the simple mean is the best way to approach this problem and the lack of raw data or standard deviation information clearly has no use.
1. fill box with a newspaper, wrapped in security tape or whatever.
2. inure to max. value offered.
3. send (with "Atheist" label)
=======================
4. PROFIT for each one that gets "lost"
They could have included a neutral (non-framed) condition, so 1) no text on package, 2) "atheist" on package, 3) (random text) on package. Or; since they're trying to confirm the hypothesis that this has something to do with religion, 3) (random text) on package and 4) "In God we trust" on package (or something similar).
Statistics seem fine to me (like person below me said).
Either way, I really like the blue shoes and the price looks good to, I might order me a pair and ask for them to put "KILL ALL CHRISTIANS" on the box.
My gut tells me that a one-tailed test would be more appropriate as they're trying to confirm a hypothesis; but I might be wrong. My gut sucks in stats.
I used to have doubts about religion and all that a number of years ago. But something weird happened several years ago that changed all that.
My (then) wife and I were sitting on the couch ready to turn on some TV around 5 in the afternoon when an orange orb appeared out of nowhere and simply floated across the room. -- Our jaws dropped. Mind you we don't do drugs, weed, or alcohol and both of us have post graduate education. To this day I can't explain what the heck it was. of course you tell people and they think your nuts so we kept it to ourselves really. Weird stuff continued, like one night I felt something in the room so I said in my head "if you're real, break the glass or something" no sooner than I thought that the glass shattered and I freaked out. Other stuff would happen like one night I got awoken to a woman's voice saying "wake up pig". In the meantime my marriage fell apart and my wife was a totally different person.
It turned out she was into the occult as a "hobby" and I just didn't know. No she wasn't those fat chicks that are into witchcraft. She looked normal and just found it "cool". I realized that stuff somehow attracted bad things whatever into our house that you can't see. At the time I was going through a nasty divorce with her and things were just very weird in the house and with her especially. She became promiscuous and I could not trust her. I was broke form the divorce and ready to lose the house I worked for. -- I know it sounds like a movie, but I was very real for me, yet I wasn't into any of that. I thought it was bullshit.
So one day I decided to pray to Christ -- yes, seriously. I know you're going to say "here we go..." but hear me out. I literally begged for help to get me life back together. I prayed for really what I wanted in life. things that mattered. After that I forgot about it. Then a few months later things really changed. I met the love of my life and everything I asked for happened. We are very well off, my career is doing well, family is well. Its night and day from several years ago.
I know some people will laugh but its very real what happened to me. -- Good luck to you pal if your atheist. I know there is something invisible with Jesus and something "good" that we are supposed to follow with him. I know there are evil entities or things we can't see constantly trying tempt to screw you over, but it is there. When you turn on the TV look for the "eyeball", "pyramid symbol" or the "devil hand" and especially all this HELL, devil or whatever titles on TV. -- You'll see its everywhere. And that is pretty scary. When you do something wrong i found that the next day something bad happens (get into a fight, argument, something breaks, etc). I noticed it, like it is a contract between good and evil. You do something wrong (tempted) you get something bad at you and you have no control to stop it. Some say karma, but damn its real.
But once you start believing in Christ and have daily conversations with him, it doesn't matter. Everything changes for the better. Good stuff happens to you all the time. You'll realize its very real and people around you are totally oblivious to it. I am not one of those people that goes around preaching, just someone who realized the whole heaven/hell thing is very real. Some kind of dimension we can't see... Just start having conversations with Christ, tell him what you want out of life, be sincere, ask for guidance, and you'll see the changes.
It might just be that if you label things atheist, USPS employees are less likely to care about it, as is their management. I wonder what would happen if they shipped "Jewish" shoes in Palestine, or "Palestinian" shoes in Isreal?
I suspect the moral of the story is if you run against the social grain, insure your shipments.
Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.