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Microsoft's X-Box Specs Revealed
Some information about Microsoft's rumored X-Box console has been leaked. Features are said to include a DVD drive, a 56K modem, a windows derived OS, a 1GHz CPU, 64 MB memory and 4 GB of HD space. Nintendonext has the scoop. All that, a possible $149 price tag.
Uhuh. 149$ winmodem. hehe.
ambitions to use the Playstation II as a platform to oust PC's in many people homes. Maybe they take a loss, but it keeps people on MS's platform and kills Sony's attempt at domination over the home entertainment market.
Maybe what will matter tomorrow for a client OS won't be the ability to run Win$# apps after all (wine, anyone ?), but just that games can be easily ported.
Rather than the Win32 API, should there be a project to emulate DirectX (... which M$oft itself seems having trouble implementing and keeping up to date on NT) ?
Does this make sense ? If not, why ?
>But I guess if one company can afford to subsidize their hardware that far it's microsoft.
As opposed to Sony? They had 18 billion dollars in sales in the US alone in their previous fiscal year. That's around twice what Microsoft had for the same period. And that's less than half of Sony's worldwide figures. Stock price may not be so hot, but that's for investors to worry about.
What is the point of including broadband access if broadband access is not widely spread. There are a good many areas I do not except to get DSL or cable[modems] for a long time.
I could see them selling an upgrade for DSL though.
On my browser (Netscape 4.7) the site shows up as black text on a navy blue background. I can't read it!
I think that Microsoft gives you a computer when you buy a house on MSN. Maybe they'll give an X-box optionally...
>This will be a Windows machine. Normally game consoles don't have these problems because they don't have
>a hard drive - there is no configuration to screw up, just hit the reset button if something goes wrong.
>A hard drive will make misconfiguration possible. Ahem, no. Oh, it might make it possible, but there's a difference between *will* and *may* that one has to consider. I think if I were building the "X-Box" I'd put the OS details and other configuration issues in ROM, leaving the HD for other stuff. Of course, there's no telling how MS will be handling things, but ain't that the point? WE ARE IGNORANT! Live with it.
>Assuming of course you can also drop the microsoft OS and put Linux on there (which should happen within
>a week of it being released, I'd think). Nope, you're thinking of things in terms of a standard computer, as opposed to a console, where the hardware does not have to be generic, and you can't port anything to it, not without changing the physical hardware where the most important stuff is actually found. You'd probably be better off building your own. That said, you could in theory create a program that "was" Linux, and worked sorta like LoadLin, but without specifics, it's impossible to tell. So what I'm saying here, is get a hold of an X-Box first, then talk.
Now that Via owns Cyrix, they seem fit not to make avaliable any of the drivers for the Cyrix MediaGX CPU, such as the display and audio drivers. While the audio is 100% soundblaster 16, it still skips on my laptop with the soundblaster drivers. I have emailed via (weeks ago) and they don't care.
I will NEVER purchase a via product - you can't get ANY lower than refusing to ante up some drivers you already have. What a bunch of losers.
"it'll crash faster than anything else"
Except the karma of first posters!
console games do have bugs yes: my ps has crashed three distinct times that i can recall in the last year and a half. however compare that to pc games? unexplained crashes and hangs, graphical glitches and sound problems are all common features of a new (non-patched) pc game. ut, homeworld, half-life etc. have all hammered my pc more times than i can remember. imho the biggest plus with console games is that the vendors CANNOT release patches to existing games. so their qa has to be much more stringent. the flip side is that console gamers tend to be much less tolerant of freezes and glitches than your average pc gamer. it's all user expectation i guess. anyway, the point is moot: i own a pc and a playstation and i'll sure as hell be first down the shop when the ps2 comes to my neighbourhood (ahem, although possibly not for the 'x-box').
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
>Almost every (if not every) console is sold at a loss.
From what I remember, the Sherman Act in the USA makes it illegal to sell something for less than the cost of making it.
Maybe I'm wrong...
The article just says up to 1ghz processor...
Something to rembember on priceing. Price goes down as sales go up, a deal for PSX2 or x-box could mean a hell of a lot of sales. Its not so much the actual production of a chip that costs money, its mostly the price of design and building a factory for it.
You can bet that 56k 'modem' will be a LoseModem, probably welded to the mobo. Indeed, could Micros~1 have a LoseChipSet in the works for an immutable motherboard? It'll cost a lot more than $150 to make these usable as real machines....
Sony is against Bleem because of all the pirates out in the world copying PSX games and playing them on Bleem...All at the cost of a blank CDR...thus, $0.60....at least with the console, even with a modehcip, they would have to own that before being able to pirate the games...
Ya know, some people ARE idiots...Linux this, "will fail" that...Think about it a sec...The OS will probably be in ROM...WinCE is probably one of the more stable Win OS' out right now...The games will be on DVD...The HD would be used for possibly updated to the system, patches for games when problems are found, etc. I mean, think about it - everyone has seen other console games that have a bug, quirk, etc in them, and know there's no way to fix it...Well, this will let people fix it... Think a bit more about what you're reading...
Well, it doesn't matter wether or not the release the specs. Its just a matter of time before someone brings one over to over seas to a country where reverse enginering is perfectly legal. Then when the guys from l0pht get a hold of it. One way or another. There is a good choice that it will run Linux.
>selling at a loss is called dumping and is illegal, at least in the U.S. Question: Are you a lawyer? No? Then are you employed by a grocery store, or a department store, or some other such capacity where you'd know how much things cost the company to buy, versus the prices sold to customers? If you were, then I guess you failed to report those "criminal acts" . Unless they weren't illegal perhaps? Yes, dumping is illegal in some cases, but that doesn't equate to everything. Please study US trade laws before you comment on them, if you would.
in hommage to that famous high-tech of the (late 70's and ??) 1980's:
:-P
l
The X-Console
Sun makes a nicer (looking) new version of this: the Sun Ray
http://www.sun.com/products/sunray1/feature.htm
I'd be more willing to accept that explanation if this were at CNET, or some big site, or on MS's site, not on some obscure Nintendo Fan site. Really, I think you're seeing stuff that just ain't there.
Doesn't the Sherman Act in the USA prevent a company from selling a product for less than the cost to make it?
/am/ giving EVERYONE a fair chance to talk... it's not like /my/ message is going to prevent /others/ from posting.
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BTW: THIS WAS MY FIRST POST TODAY! Why the hell is slashdot complaining that it isn't?
Huh? This is a bunch of new CENSORSHIP crap isn't it? I
This is it, I will NEVER POST TO SLASHDOT AGAIN.
>It's been 9 seconds since your last attempt to post!
Bullshit! It has been 5 minutes! I just checked my watch, AGAIN!
>It's been 37 seconds since your last attempt to post!
WTF? Why is my time going UP?
>Slow down cowboy!
If I slow down much more I'm gonna STOP...
>It's been 33 seconds since your last attempt to post!
Huh? That was a minute ago...
I give up. If this post doesn't go through this time, I refuse to even browse slashdot anymore.
if they wanted linux in such a box, it would have segmentation faults, and the people who own it would have to wait 3 years before a stable version was finally released
'nuff said
NTSC (that's those TV thingies) are more like 378x200 something NTSC runs in a few different configurations depending on final output. Most common is the tube which is NTSC D1 Square Pix 720x540. Others are NTSC DV 720x480, NTSC D1 720x486 and NTSC 640x480 and NTSC 648x486.I'd hardly think of a harddrive as an asset to a gaming console. What's it good for? I think MS is going to sell this as an entertainment console much like the GW2K Destination PC's from a few years back. It will probably come with WebTV and have internet functions. They will want to be able to add onto the OS and upgrade common components such as IE or DirectX. There will probably be multi-user capability for everyone to have their own e-mail inboxes and saved games. I think this will be one of the first home internet appliances that will be successful. Don't let the game console disguise fool you.
That problem could only have been caused by your own screw-up.
No one blames Linux problems caused by a newbie's ignorance on Linux, but yet you blame Windows problems on Windows for your own stupidity?
DIE BITCH
Quake * has never crashed on me. Ever.
;) You have a seriously misconfigured system, caused by a serously misinformed, most likely arrogant, person. It might help.
In addition, Windows never does either.
If your Windows OS crashes, perhaps you should go buy one of those dummies books.
i question the timing of this "leak". could it simply be a coincidence that this announcement comes at a time when m$'s stock is down $10, with windoze 2000 due to ship in a matter of days? I think not. M$ is, as usual, playing a spin game.
vaporware, anyone?
I do agree that the X-box will probably be fairly stable since it won't have driver problems. I think the problem will emerge when M$ offers it's "upgrades". Lets face it, M$ just can't leave the upgrade market alone. They constantly have to add useless gizmos to everything, that tend to make everything more complicated then they need to be, and they almost always cause more problems then they're worth.
M$ is poking into territory they've never been in before. I think if they actually do try to get into this market, in the long term they won't succeed. Basically this is pitting M$ against three major Japanese corporations. I think I'd bet on the Japanese myself. At least the PS2 won't bug you about how great the MSN is...
Am I the only person that thinks that having a counsel play mp3's would be... sort of useless? Who turns thier TV on to listen to music. (MTV doesn't count since they don't really play videos anymore)
Since Microsoft has been pointed out as the blatant software monopoly it is by a Federal Court, would it not be illegal for them to enter the console market selling at a loss? Sounds like a clear violation of the Clayton (or is that Sherman? Damn) anti-trust act to me.
Department of Justice, are you listening???
--Michael Bacarella
Current CPUs cost a fraction of the retail price to manufacture... perhaps MS has an unannounced deal to get them more cheaply.
In any event, they don't have to make a profit on the consoles. Sony, Nintendo, etc. lose money on every console sold, so why should MS? They can make it up on licensing fees. For that matter, MS loses quite a bit of money on every WebTV box sold, without any licensing fees to compensate them--it's really nothing next to the amount of money they generate from other revenue sources.
Now, add in the fact that they don't plan to start selling them next week, and you can see that this isn't unrealistic at all.
Forget about high res colorful graphics. Just give me a character screen that can go up to 200 x 150!
What about the new crusoe chip by Transmeta... I heard the costs for it are pretty low. With a low temperature as well. Maybe they can get the chip up to 1GHZ without frying it.
"A hard drive will make misconfiguration possible." Nobody said it will happen. But this *will* make it possible. And it has nothing to do with the fact that the machine runs Windows. It is fairly easy to screw up a Linux box too.
Dreamcast does run WinCE... Sega Rally for one is developed on top of it (using a version of directX ported for CE)
-D
Traditionally, a lot of Windows crashes have been due to a combination of poor apps and non-robust hardware drivers - that is to say, drivers that go kablooey if you feed them bogus data. (Of course, when the "poor app" is also Microsoft, there's not much excuse.) But with a console, you don't have to worry about, say, SuperNeoWhizzy writing buggy DirectX drivers for their SuperNeoWhizzy-3D video card; the hardware and APIs are developed by the console manufacturer (or outsourced) and aren't released on the world till they're quite solid. Thus, you know that your game is going to work on your test box exactly the same as on the box the end user is using. Plus, I fully expect the firmware is written to be crash-resistant (we all know there's no such thing as crash-proof).
Under these circumstances, even Microsoft could tune the OS specifically for this thing until they had it just right. (In fact, speaking completely out of my hat, that may be where the Windows derived part comes in - perhaps they forked the WinCE code base.) This is particularly true if they don't have any specific commitments to release the X-Box on a certain date - if it's still crashable, they just slip the schedule.
Last year, when Bill Gates spoke at Indiana University, he discussed some of the differences in strategy between open and closed platforms. He explained that Nintendo and Sony have their plans set up as completely closed (Nintendo even more so, since you must do the development with the SGI and special peripherals) and as a software developer, you must pay royalties from your product to the console manufacturer.
Microsoft, on the other hand, allows anyone to produce software with no licensing agreement between you and Microsoft.
So not only would they cause all sorts of negative press and make the iMac be the gaming computer of the next generation, but Bill would have to eat some more words.
-Derek i-grub.com
This will be a Windows machine. Normally game consoles don't have these problems because they don't have a hard drive - there is no configuration to screw up, just hit the reset button if something goes wrong. A hard drive will make misconfiguration possible.
> DREAMCAST DOES NOT RUN WINCE Uh, well, actually, it does. The OS comes on the GDs, and it's loaded in at boot time. My copies of Sega Rally 2 and Worms Armageddon both display the WinCE logo at start-up.
This is such a sad, pathetic grouping of individuals it truly depresses those who might have been hopeful about the future of mankind. The responses are the same old, pathetic, rehashed, we like Linux so we're experts at everything bullshit over and over again.
Get a life you bunch of god damn losers. Most of you are so incredibly stupid the fact that you maintain vital signs is astounding, yet here you are spouting your infinite wisdom to the world. "I'm a weeetard an fer meeee in my wife/sister wind0w$ cra$hes evry dy! Linos ruleZ d00dz!"
Slashdot has become largely irrelevant. The posters are, in general, the losers of the crowd that no one wants to listen to because they, in defence of their utter inferiority, pretend superiority by constantly clinging onto any half-baked concept or grouping. "Rally behind the flag boys, Linux rules! What's that? It hasn't progressed jack shit in the past two years? Ah well, it'll dominate d00dz! Those stupid MCSE WindowZ users! We're dumb and can't run a computer without crashing it (I hopz itz not the porn screensaverz I keep installing to beat my tiny dick off to), so conversely we're the smart ones! Look at us! We're so smart! Hey, why is Linus rolling in the dough, and why are other slap monkey's like Richard Stallman plastering their names all over everything and getting famous while I'm, in my bazarre little fantasy world, wallowing in the mud in my mommas basement eating corn puffs and my toe nails. Ah well, back to coding the boring shit like IDE drivers, otherwise the man will slap me around."
Bah. If I were a religious zealot looking to recruit a bunch of easy to lead astray, monkeys this would be the first place I'd come. Well, first I'd put up a big picture of Linus and publicly exhault though great one. Then I'd rant incessantly about how the Cathedral and the Bazaar (it really should be titled : I'm Eric Raymond! Look at me! Read about how I coded everything and some dumbasses tried to contribute, and how somehow this is the paradigm for open source software!) defines the new era of mankind. Then I'd cash in the stock options and laugh at all you pimple poppin', penis boppin', pathetic losers.
Mine ran out of memory with 256MB of ram and 2GB HDD free, running netscape, an ftp program and EZ CD Creator. After that it rebooted itself and lilo was gone. Linux couldn't put it back, and 98 couldn't install its boot sector. Had to change my boot drive. I never touched the system files on 98. Never changed the advanced options. I always shut down properly (when it let me). I always let scandisk run to completion. Memory allocation errors are the operating system's fault. This is 100% Microsoft's fault.
Or it means that the console is a loss leader for the games, just like with the Sony Playstation. Of course, that only works for the PSX because Sony extracts a license fee from everyone who makes games for it, so if Microsoft's going with that business model, they'll have to do something similar.
>>But I guess if one company can afford to >>subsidize their hardware that far it's >>microsoft. >As opposed to Sony? They had 18 billion dollars >in sales in the US alone in their previous >fiscal year. That's around twice what Microsoft >had for the same period. And that's less than >half of Sony's worldwide figures. Stock price >may not be so hot, but that's for investors to >worry about. Moron. Microsoft has an exponentially greater amount of loose money floating around than Sony. Microsoft is still selling copies of Windows 95 for 97-199$ to plenty of corporations and local yokels across the US. That's virtually _all_ pure profit. A 10% margin on a high-tech product and the big dogs at Sony would cream their suits. Microsoft is raking in so many billion a year in _profit_ (not just sales, fool) that it is truly staggering.
You need the harddrive and modem to download 100 megabyte service packs every three months. The harddrive is so that you can download each one in a bunch of chunks and then apply them all at once.
Or maybe they could charge you to upgrade. X-Box Special Edition or something.
(Somebody spent all morning patching his copy of Visual Studio. What kind of moron thinks it's a good idea to distribute a 100+ MB patch? And I loved downloading it in 12 chunks and then typing the same information 12 times when I extracted each individual archive. (not to mention that even after patching, gcc is *still* the better compiler and that didn't cost $1,400)).
This thing would suck if MS considers a GeForce for it's graphics. 12 Million vertices a second totally sucks compared to 25 Million polygons per second. The GeForce isn't much faster than a PIII with a TNT2.
Hell, you get a 40 gig HD at Fry's in NoCal for around 300 bucks right now. I'd guess this time next year they'll have the 80 gig UDMA 66 drives on sale for 250-350 bucks, which is pocket change money for anyone employed in the tech industry.
$200 64Mb 12Gb gigapixel ethernet xmas'01
I wonder if I could go to a crew like that and tell them my "hot insider secrets" and they would buy it..... ask a 12 year old what he wants his nintendo to do and he'll give you those exact specs.
Nuts. And here I thought MS was going to sell a stand alone internet porn harvester that spends all its time searching the net for porn and saving it for... um... later use.
Is this how any company that Microsoft sets its sights on views Microsoft? I'm used to reading this kind of rhetoric from some members of the open source community, but this is an interesting source for it.
The feature list was okay up to the part about the windows-derived OS. HAHA. HAHOOOHEEEHAAA
You should also keep in mind that every console manufacturer loses money on the console itself, and only make their profits on the games. (This may not be true for PlayStation any more, it being ancient technology now, but certainly was when it was new, and is still true for N64 and Dreamcast)
The Dreamcast is running WINCE next to it's own OS, so it's already sort of MS X-BOX. Which may be the reason that it crashes once in a while. A new competitor as MS gets a hard time though. In the Netherlands, which is where i live, only Playstation and N64 have shelf space everywhere. Sega is still struggling for space and they have even lost some retailers already. The games market is not yet big enough for four competitors. Yeah I'm an Anonymous Coward! X-BOX sounds like 3Doh!
This isn't the 1st time Microsoft have released inflated specs of a product they may never release, to deliberately stiffle sales of the current opposition, and generally put about the notion with the uneducated deciders that "Microsoft are the greatest".
Remember Microsofts "Avaj". Feh.
The most difficult technical hurdle will be figuring out where to locate the Ctrl Alt Del buttons on the controller.
First off, what was he doing reading NintendoNext? That site is a pice of s***. The guy doesn't even have his own sources, he just scours around forums and websites looking for a story he can rebadge as his own. Second, M$ almost NEVER releases anything on time, so what makes you think this will be out anytime soon? Third, Dolphin WILL be better than PS2.(Just trust me.) Anonymous Coward, signing off.
I keep hearing that Sony makes there Playstations at a loss, cause they make their profits from game sales. But then what have they got against Bleem seeing as it creats a larger customer base, without selling lose making consols. IMAO I think because of their massive economies of scale, plus the commodity purchasing power they have from that economies of scale, I doubt they make a lose on anything. Particully when you take into account the cost of buying PSX memory cards & controllers, etc .
That's why they'll sell the games for $100 each...
At $149? There's no way in hell! Ram prices are still high, dvd drives can't be that cheap. Just impossible... Hell, if it were $149 I might even consider buying it, MS product and all...
Do you think it might be possible that would be using the Crusoe? It should be up to 1GHz in a years time. Just a thought....
Yes and it will also cure cancer end world hunger and kill your worst enemies.
We believe that.(Sarcasm)
Bill Gates go home. You are NOT welcome on the console market.
"I'm sorry. Did I run over your dogma?"
It sounds like you are describing a poorly configured Windows machine running Quake.
Why would a game console do any of the above?
Hint: There probably won't be an F1 key to press.
Mr. Grits, since you work at MS why dont you tell us?
well it's a M$ product but for that price tag ? in that case making a rendering farm would be cheap :) hell why not just buy one for a X-terminal ,unless it's impossible to port linux to it that is ...
What a dumbass.. You do realize that 99% of Quake players play it through Windows already right ? Also - do you even know what a GPF is ? It is when the APPLICATION not the Operating System accesses memory that it doesn't own.. Same concept as a segfault you fucking moron.
They need a 1 Ghz processor just to run the version of windows they will shoe horn onto this device.
Geez. Why not $150? 1ghz processors will be "Celeried" by this time next year... we already have DVD players (powered by DSPs and DVD-ROM drives) at the $150 mark (Apex AD-600A), and when you talk MILLIONS of units, like M$ does, *EVERYBODY* listens. Large quantities and 6 months or more of age drastically reduce the cost of 3D chipsets and CPUs.
Meanwhile you jerkoffs are arguing over how fast it will crash and how you can squeeze Linux on it. you can play with Linux all you want on the box. I'll be playing awesome games or watching DVDs while you all struggle with getting a finger daemon running over your cable modem.
THINK, DAMMIT! This is a "console" - no special driver packages (poorly written drivers are responsible for 50% of the crashes in Windows), just a standard, FIXED set of core hardware. Much of it will be integrated... and YES, M$ will take a loss on the notion they'll sell software for it or MSN subscriptions.
Sounds like a bonanza. If Microsoft can port any of their OS's to it, Linux will be ported to it. Voila, we've got an inexpensive source for linux machines.
I can think of two reasons why they would announce this with such extravagant features and a minimal price. First, this could be pure vaporware, meant to scare anyone else from entering this market. Second, they could be intending on trying to keep it a closed system and making back the initial loss from profits on software. So I went to Microwarehouse and got the lowest prices for each of the components:
DVD inbuilt - $129.95
56 K Modem - $35.95
Windows Derived OS - Free (it's theirs)
Up to 1 GHz CPU - $89.95 (it was a 450MHz K6 or something like that)
64 MB Memory - $139.95
4 GB Hard Drive - $99.95
That's $495.75 without a motherboard, cooling fan, case, keyboard, monitor, mouse, joystick or anything else. Hmm. The price on this is looking suspiciously like it will come down to $149 when you sign up for 3 years with an ISP to be named later. I wonder who that would be.
Don't worry, the interface will soon be reverse-engineered, and a horde of open-source games will be released for it, all for the price of a few eproms and/or FPGA's. Now that would be ironic. :-)
Assuming of course you can also drop the microsoft OS and put Linux on there (which should happen within a week of it being released, I'd think).
The CPU runs fast in bursts until it heats up, then throttles back to a slower speed. Note that Linux calculates delays for many hard coded timing loops at boot time and can die horribly if the CPU changes its speed later. This is still an unsolved problem with Linux on laptops. (The current "solution" is to disable power management).
It's not a one gigahertz machine. X-Box is a direct-x runtime environment for PCs - another OS. Win2K is going to be pretty poor for gaming, so MS is going to release a dedicated gaming OS. If MS tried to release a console based gaming standard, it's be torn to pieces by the rest of the PC hardware manufacturers who missed out on joing the standard. A system like the above would never work - contrary to popular belief MS just can't afford to make a move like that now (either legally or financially) by comparison to Sony who are already established in the market.
The only idea I can come up with against this new console is Microsoft's traditional experience of getting things right only at version 3. But then again, this is hardware and MS hardware has been pretty good.
People are making stupid comments about the price but I think it's realistic. Prices will fall sharply in the next year for this kind of stuff and in 2001 who knows, maybe that's a fair price. And Microsoft should be able to take a loss if it needs to.
Also, from what I've heard, anyone can develop for this without having to pay up with licensing and stuff to become developers. In the console world, companies that want to make games have to pay Nintendo/Sega/Sony/whoever big bucks just to develop for the system, and then they have to pay up for every copy of every game sold. That's how Playstation kept Sony making profits while everything else Sony made was losing money or had slim margins. Coming from the PC world, Microsoft would be stupid to do that. Lots of people say Sony is the Microsoft of the console world (and even go as far as saying Sony is *worse* than MS), and will welcome Microsoft which seems to have the more "open" stuff.
I'd be surprised if they lost.
I wonder how fast till somebody figure out to yank out the M$ OS in it and instal Linux. heh heh... this ought to be an interesting sport. (imagine: 2 days after after launch date somebody post a Linux instal How-To...maybe beawolf too...*g*)
The M2 actually did exist in hardware. I saw a dev kit for the M2 go on sale on ebay. I talked to the guy who won the auction. Its for real. Now... don't know what you would do with the M2 dev kit. I mean, since noone else has the system.
In any case, the hostility is quite unwarranted. Anonymity is not an excuse for being an asshole, despite what some around here seem to think.
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Now if you have replaced 'Windows' in the above post with 'Linux', you'd be thanking him.
and if anyone would like a dreamcast, sonic adventure, and a memmory card for $200, full value being $270, then email stevie@home.klis.com
Thanks
Over here, I don't see anything about Linux in where I live.
- backward compatibility
/. was an interesting comment about how Sony thinks they're invincible and are repeating the same mistakes others have made before...
nobody has ever cared about backwards compatibility before, how many people got a power base converter for the Sega Genesis? It has been shown to be an irrelevant feature.
- faster floating point
for a while... playstation and N64 were impressive when they came out, but PC soon surpassed them - look how fast mhz has been going up on x86 processors
- costs - can be a dvd player
that's nice but what happens when everything's got a DVD player, like this new X-Box and whatever else comes out?
- can be upgraded like a PC
Sega Genesis could be upgraded too, 32X, SegaCD, and the Power Base Converter were available. It killed Sega because of the games that required them and nobody wanted to pay the bucks to play it.
- uses Linux as its development platform
How is that going to help anything? You still have to pay Sony a ton of money to develop for PS2, and they still get a cut from every game sold.
One of the things I read last time a console story showed up on
If it does all that, why don't they bundle it with a $5 keyboard, a $5 mouse, and just release it as a computer for $150?
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
So, we have it M$ are trying to move into a new market and take over. Soon they take over the world. Imagine cars who's computers use Windoze and Jets who's infight computers use Windoze the world would be a disarter area. We must do something quickly, ah we shall install Linux on every computer, we shall never surrender until we rid the world of this evil tyrany of M$.
-Jasa -- Linux - The SOURCE will be with you, ALWAYS
They're calling it Windows Power now, or Windows Mini-ME if you prefer.
Console gamers simply have never and most likely will never put up with a crashing console system. My NES only started crashing after 7 years of use... hardware prolly all crusty and dusty on the inside. My SNES never crashed, ever. My N64 doesn't crash. My Playstation doesn't crash. Can Microsoft's X-Box do the same? If it is going to have an OS based on the Windows operating systems, then I am not very confident in the stability of this system. Console gamers won't buy it.
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In addition, not all illegal page faults and GPFs happen in userspace. The kernel can follow bad pointers too, giving that lovely blue and white screen we all know and hate.
In any case, the hostility is quite unwarranted. Anonymity is not an excuse for being an asshole, despite what some around here seem to think.
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64 megs dosen't seem to be enough these days. 128 seems to be the minimum to be usefull. Abeit with a smaller overhead it could work out.
Consoles work on the principle of standardized hardware running a single application. When one has standardized hardware and an application that has the whole system to itself, there is far less of a need for an operating system. Therefore, Microsoft, an operating system company, putting out a console is working out an exercise in futility here. Sure, it may be easier to port Windows apps, but console software developers are used to doing things like going from one console to another anyway.
Microsoft might win developers over only on the greater freedom to port software over to the system and low to possibly non-existant licensing fees (if they haven't gone this route, they are doomed). Conventional consoles require manufacturer approval for a licence to write software on that platform and get a certain amount of money per game sold. Consoles work on the give away the razor, sell the blades theory of economics.
Eventually there will be a console based on the PC economic model that might take off. If it runs an operating system, it will be probably Linux, due to the zero cost of the operating system (and in the console market, every dollar you shave off the price helps). Either that or there's going to be some lawsuit that opens up software development on conventional platforms and the console economic model is broken anyway.
But Microsoft trying to get into the console market is going to be a great bomb, I predict.
I stopped reading the article after reading why they feel the need to include a 4GB drive... For PATCHES.
I don't know about you, but like hell I'm going to buy a console based gaming system that will need to download patches for games.
Typical Microsoft nature. Step 1: Release product as fast as possible. Step 2: Release a flurry of patches to make product work.
That price is unreasonable for any release date prior to 2002 or 2003. Perhaps they plan on selling a monthly service along with it, sort of like WebTV. That way they can screw you over a longer period of time.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Welcome to The Slashdot Zone. Time has a certain fluidity here unseen in the outside world. Be careful how you log out, you may find yourself living in a different time zone than that in which you started, despite no change in geography. On your next visit to "the zone" you may find comments that were posted before the story and replies to those comments that were posted even earlier. Some stories disappear without warning, others only show up in the rearview mirror.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The price tag claim of $149 either means they plan to release this in 3rd quarter of the year 2005, or they are just plain making this up. Any two of those components that are supposed to be in the unit would cost more than the $149.
I strongly suspect someone at the news agency mistook a joke or jest as being an actual scoop.
Not to be rude, but you're out of your mind. Yes, hardware in consoles is sold at a loss. But at maybe a $100 loss per unit, not $500ish. I mean, come on, a 1ghz machine with a DVD drive and 64 megs of RAM for $150? I want some of what their sources are on.
It's bullshit. There's no way it can happen in any sort of short term.
...luckily though that's what we've come to expect so it will fly off the e-shelves like free crack. That is of course if it ever actually exists. Basically a TV remote control that costs $150.
I'm really not sure why this has got everyone up in arms, apart from the obvious microsoft reference. The specs are impressive but nobody buys a fancy new system to play pong, the real selling point is what games it can play,
;)
..that being said I think that the killer app for this thing would most likely be a linux port
- MbM
- MbM
The article says that the X box will support "up to 1GHz CPU". Does that mean that it will be released with a slower CPU, but can be upgraded? That seems like the most feasible route, but hardly the best. Upgrades have a horrible track record in the console industry as most consumers simply can't be bothered to buy the upgrade. The whole point of having a console is so that you've got a box that is identical to everyone else's, and so that you can play ANY game ever made for that system (anyone remember the Sega 32X? wonder why?).
If this isn't the case, I'd certainly like to see how they're gonna give me a 1GHz CPU in a box for ~ $149.
>Actually, console game developers have always paid licensing fees.
Yes, I know, but you missed my point. MS currently does not charge developers, game developers included, a license fee for producing windows software.
If they start doing it for the X-Box, then they'll either have one platform (X-Box) with licensing fees and one (PC) without, or they'll have to change the Windows PC platform to have a license fee, too.
I don't think either of those scenarios is likely to succeed in making developers happy and MS rich(er).
I think your estimate of $750 cost is low for those specs. It's supposed to have a new GeForce card, too.
Regardless, if the price is true (sounds like rumor/FUD) then MS will be selling this box at a significant loss in the hopes that it will get that money back, either from online subscriptions to MSN or software licensing.
I highly doubt game vendors are going to jump for option number two since they don't have to pay MS to release programs for Windows. And they probably wouldn't be thrilled about pouring more of their own money into licenses from an increasingly competitive game developer like MS.
So I guess MS is going to tie this into WebTV/MSN and generate revenue from subscriptions.
But subsidizing ventures like this is exactly why MS is losing a billion dollars a year in WebTV. Ouch.
Ummm... licensing what?
Game developers are not going to take too kindly to paying license fees on an MS console if they're not paying them to develop on an MS PC.
MS is going to raise a hellstorm if they start to charge a bounty on every Windows product sold.
It's a set top box meant for playing video games. Yhe OS that developers will target will be the one that ships on the machine. That will be whatever variant of Windows is on the machine. Ripping Windows out and installing Linux on it... You'll end up with a paperweight... Sure, maybe you'll be able to telnet using your TV as a monitor... But really. At this point in time, Windows beats Linux hands town in terms of game availability, features offered for developers, and just the sheer number of developers.
Seems very likely that the Windows Derived OS will be WindowsCE 3. It supports most of the Win32 API, Java, Internet, iRDA, etc. not a bad OS, if you dont mind slow IO. The current range of handheld devices (esp the HP 620LX) are very unstable, so if that is what this X Box is to be like, then, no way do i want a piece of it
\\||//
----ooo00ooo----
M$ has never been able to compete on quality, and that's all they'll have to sell. I think their experience in the console game market will mirror their failure in the handheld arena.
2) X-Box WON'T wipe Sony out... what a joke. That's like saying "Yamaha's making a new motorbike that goes 20mph faster than any other bike - all the other bike companies will go out of business!".
Is it?
Or is it like saying that Nintendo will never wipe Atari out?
-JDF
Assuming the article contents are true, I think that the only thing by which this could be better than a Playstation 2 is the ability to play movies.
There is no mention about graphic cards, and for a PC-like architecture they matter - a lot.
The only processors Microsoft could work with are x86's and maybe StrongARMs, and I don't think they fare very well when compared to the PS2's.
64 megs of ram are a ridiculous amount, and the 4Gigs HDD is acceptable only for very specific purposes, like a "slow-ram"/swap area and high score tables.
I'll wait for more specs, but I'm absolutely unimpressed for now.
Yah, I read that too. It smacked of fanboy, "my system is better than yours", crap. It sounded like it was written by Jeff K..
Jarod
All it looks like to me is a computer that uses your television as a monitor. It doesn't look any more impressive than the PSX2 or Dolphin. In fact, it looks inferior.
;-)
Does anyone know when the first service pack will be available for it?
My guess is we'll achieve that in 1-2 years when enough games are ported to Linux. By that time XFree 4 will be truely stable, 3D audio will be defined by Creative & Aureal and Crusoe processors might be interesting for a Linux console.
The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then
"If I can buy this rather than a Playstation 2, a DVD player, and a "set top box", then I will"
The Playstation 2 will allow you to play DVDs and surf the web. What's so different with this?
No, but of course I don't generally run Windows in safe mode 100% of the time ... more like 5% of the time when something incredibly screwy happens (mind you, pretty screwy things happen all the time, but not always "Safe-Mode (TM)" worthy screwy things -- follow?).
Who knows what Windows crash stats would look like for safe-mode....
>Let's face it, M$ is gonna need some serious >expertise if they want to pull this off. Their >onlook on Operating Systems right now is, as long >as
> it's stable enough, it'll fly. >They also have a tendency to rush a production >and issue bugs afterwards.
actually, I think that a console could have a much more rushed OS. Why? Because much of the system could be on a game's cd/DVD. I might be wrong, but Dreamcast can do this --load WINCE off of a game disc.
therefore, the OS could be modified at the drop of the hat for new programs...
------- Oh damn.... the Sigfile escaped... -Great OM
Played Doom 1.0 (with the 0.9 operating system?)
The specs say a 4GB hard drive.
selling at a loss is called dumping and is illegal, at least in the U.S. The claims about Sony not making a profit off of the Playstation don't say that Sony was selling at a loss, just very near cost, and that any profit was made off the sale of games.
If MS were to try to sell a piece of hardware at a significant loss (and if the specs are at all reliable the loss would be quite significant) then they would be in even deeper doo-doo than they are already with the web-browser business.
By my (admittedly under informed) calculations, a box matching Nintendo Next's specs would cost almost $150 for parts alone, without the processor. Clever bookkeeping may be able to assign assembly, packaging and marketing costs away, but it would be very hard to cover up the raw parts costs.
What CPU is going to be out in the next six months (they'll need some lead time on the engineering) that will run at 1GHz and will cost less than $100? Something from Intel: unlikely due to cost. Something from IBM or Motorola: unlikely due to speed. Something from AMD: possible, but if they could do it I would think we would have heard more hype than this. I'm not inclined to believe a gaming rag, even on a good day, but this is just silly.
I really hope you copied and pasted this off USENET and didn't write it special for the occasion. I saw somebody copy/paste a Visual Basic help file earlier today, but this was way funnier. I say, If you're going to troll, troll huge.
-ODB Jr.
I believe the rumor you're referring to was the development environment for the system, not the system OS itself.
The PS2 figures are also basically vertex counts. Which is one of the reasons the figures are so inflated (75 million pps, anyone?). Still, a real-world 12 million pps is probably within the realms of possibility for PS2.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
Curse Extrans! I'm going back to HTML!
This may have been true in the past, but things are different now. Prior to today, you never would have worried too much about how your gaming console interacts with the Internet. Perhaps now is the time that we will see this change.
....
The X-Box could even go that step further and be a total media solution. Imagine for that low price, you can:
1) Shop on the Internet
2) Watch DVD movies (perhaps interactive titles.. think Starship Troopers where you can help blast the bugs!)
3) Download stuff from the net
We need to leave the old console paradigm behind, and open up to the possibilities of combining digital tools into compact devices. If I can buy this rather than a Playstation 2, a DVD player, and a "set top box", then I will. Hell, I bet this thing will store MP3/WMA as well, so I can ditch the CD stacker on the stereo too
>>Ever have windows crash in safe mode? I haven't.
I have. Repeatedly.
Naw. If Microsoft's history is any indication, by the time this thing is released, prople will be donating 1Ghz Processors and 4Gb hard Drives to charity.
It is my opinion that I do not believe the X-Box will have the ability to change operating systems or even buy another console with any *nix installed on it. Since this is a product of Microsoft, you can very well expect it to be secure in the sense of modifying a thing such as the console operating system. I mean, can you even change the OS of those little hand held computers that have Windows CE installed? Hrmm, those hand held computers aren't made by Microsoft (I think) but even so I don't believe you can change the OS. So I wouldn't expect the immediate ability to do so with the X-Box.
... well, you wouldn't need me. You would figure that stuff out before I could :)
That's just my opinion, If I had more facts on the console OS, I'd
-PovRayMan
----------
Check out my blackbox styles
Actually, they probably will release it under $200, as Sega, Sony, and Nintendo have all learned that anything over that price point won't sell well in America. Every console out there is sold at a loss for the hardware vendor. They then license the technology to software providers, and make the money back that way. Sega loses an estimated $100 per Dreamcast sold, and makes it back when you've purchased your third game. I'm sure MS is looking to have a platform that they can control - unlike the PC.
So what if they lose $500 on each one. They can make it up in volume.
As far as a Linux port, it will probably be running before any version of WinCE, it will be more stable, use less resources, etc, etc.
oh for the love of Kosh, it was a *joke* people.
Joke.
You know, juxtaposition of absurdities, make you giggle, ha ha?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I'll repeat what I said above - it's a joke.
The concept of "humour" seems to be rapidly draining from Slashdot...
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
"Yes! I'm on the final level of Quake: Rehash! I'm about to squash this wonderfully 3D-rendered, semi-AI-controlled final opponent. And the screen theme is pretty."
"Now, to step forward..."
*presses up*
---WARNING! - This program has performed an illegal operation. It will now be shut down. It is recommended that you reboot your system.---
"AUGH...well, at least I saved the game..."
---WARNING! - Cannot open save game file. File corruption. Please contact Microsoft Technical Support for details.
Press F1 to continue---
*sound of console being tossed out window and crashing on cement*
sorry, couldn't resist:)
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Forget about a 1 GHZ processor. It is too expensive and would drive the retail price of what will be a "set-top" box wayyyy too high.
Have a Happy.
then you haven't read their 'Why dolphin is better than PS2' article
This story is pure unadulterated vapor.
If it was "leaked", it was leaked by the MS marketing department.
MS may one day ship a console.
In the meantime if you rub the "X-Box" on your chest it might cure a cold.
"Hey... don't be mean." --Buckaroo Banzai
Can anyone say, Jaguar? I knew you could.
The one thing this "report" has left out is what the video power of the machine will be. We already knew it would run on a 1GHz+ AMD chip and the rest is pretty easy to guess. The real point is (and always has been) the video processing power of the box.
John Wiltshire
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Please, for the sake of the industry, don't.
The Sony Sega Nintendo traingle is already enough competition as it is, and if any more companies try to get in I think we'll see a massive breakdown. I'm not talking about a total collapse, but consumers will get fed up and stick to one single system.
We've already got NUON to worry about, though it's about as much of a game system as those games in my Nokia phone, so I really hope X-Box stays where it's been for the last 6 months: in Microsoft's little development rec room.
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Game machines aren't going to run 1Ghz 808x CPUs. They are going to run something very very custom that may be based around a fast risk chip core.
Silicon chips costs are based on pincount, silicon area, a factor for the linewidth and design costs. If you take a write off on the design cost, a million transitor chip can cost a few dollars.
No one is making games for special hardware. Its too difficult and a developer gets a lump of non-portable code for their R&D budget. Most games use what is common on all consoles and won't use specail features. Most of the major players alreay have gaming engines that do most of the hardwae specific stuff and just layer the rest of the game on top. Thats why the vector unit on the N64 has never been used in a game. Keep in mind the way the N64 emulator works isn't by emulating the machine but by running the open gl code that is common in all games for both the PC and the N64.
Anyone remember the M2? That was the supposed killer machine that was bounced around from company to company (Including Matsushita, where it got its name, i think). This was around the time when the Saturn and the Playstation came out, back in 96 or so. Finally, it died a lonely, unmourned death, killed by the lack of any substantitive support by anyone.
The X-box strikes me as the same thing. So far, there are no verified accounts of what the machine will do, no pictures, no demos, no anything. For a machine that is supposed to come out in a year? Right...
Call me when the dev kits are released.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
I'm comparing a console to a console. The X-Box will have 4 GB of hard drive in order to provide upgrades. That's what it says in the specs. Now, we all know 'upgrade' in M$-speak means 'bug patch'.
I would loudly complain about kernel upgrades if there was a Linux-based console that required them. Upgrades and patches are for a PC, not a gaming console. When I buy a gaming console, I expect to be able to play with any game by popping in the CD/DVD/cartridge, and not worry about service packs.
Hmm. It does sound weird, until you remember it's Microsoft we're talking about... :)
Totally over my head?
Clue: I *am* a game programmer, and I don't even particularly like Linux (although one day it might be better for games...)
I know very well about PSX coding, thank you.
But I don't know anyone who wrote an entire PSX game in asm. We came pretty close on the Atari Jaguar, though.
Yes, it is great to have an advantage, but if everyone is doing it, then where's the advantage? Anyway, the real advantage comes from spending time making your game fun to play, not pissing about re-inventing the TCP/IP stack all the time.
Who the **** was talking about a general purpose OS? Windows CE on the Dreamcast is cut down, it doesn't even include GDI...
And BTW, "transparancy, something playstation isn't technically supposed to be able to do"... Well, OK, so you really don't know what the **** you're talking about.
$149 -- as everyone has been pointing out, this is ridiculous, seeing as how you couldn't buy several of the individual components for that price, and, even given drops in prices, this time next year, there's no way that the entire unit costs that amount. The DVD licensing alone would drive the cost above $200 bucks, that's why nintendo's next gen machine won't play DVD videos.
2001 -- yeah, ok. A machine with no announced specs, no announced 3d party developers, from a company that hasn't produced a piece of hardware this interesting since, um, ever, and I'm supposed to believe that it's going to hit a few months after the PS2? Maybe they squeeze it in by Christmas, but not at $149. And they sure as hell can't make it in the market alone, as consoles live and die by 3d party involvement. do we really think that ms *or* game developers are going to like the sound of that?
Sony -- i'm honestly scared of the PS2. it's a monster, and it's going to shape the rest of the market. by the time this supposed console hits the market, sony expects to have sold in excess of 10 million ps2's. where's the market for a machine which, while it has a hd, doesn't give any indications that it's oing to much more powerful, from a graphics rendering standpoint, than sony's machine? the ps2 will have a hard drive, probably larger than 4 gig, by the end of next year, anyway.
now, i could be wrong. and i'd love to be, cause there's no room for a 4th console right now, and i'd love to see ms fail in an attempt to strong-arms its way into a market it knows nothing about and in which it has no experience.
you've got to add to this the fact that console games and pc games are totally different and cater to totally different audiences. microsoft's crappy sidewinder controller wouldn't fly for a second with console gamers, next to dreamcast and sony's new analog controllers. console gamers don't want to play the sims, and pc gamers don't want to play soul caliber. so where's the market for what's essentially a windows pc without a mouse or keyboard when it's being marketed as a game console? have you tried playing quake 3 without keyboard or mouse?
best of luck, bill. here's hoping you know wat you're doing.
god is just pretend.
Whoosh, totaly over your head wasn't it? Its funny how /.ers think normal people code video games.
Clue: Video games are coded by corperations, by teams of people. They are infernally attached to custom code. Even though C was available for the Playstation since its introduction, people wrote entire games in ASM for the longest time. Its true that the 32K does not include hardware access libraries, but think about it. What libraries are those? You basically have a set of functions that wrap directly around the hardware. No memory protection so no need to go through the kernel. Developer makes a request, you hit write value x to memory location y and call interupt z, and boom, you're done. The lack of need for a driver model of any sort frees you from half the job right there. Don't expect the PS2 libraries to get much more complex. All it will probably be is a TCP/IP stack. Any services you want to implement will be up to you. And why should it be anything but that? If I can to support fancy stuff I should code it myself and not burden everyone else who just wants the fastest stream of data possible. The only place I can see it getting more complex are some services for Firewire and some TCP/IP services. Not even a network API, just some functions to get a TCP/IP connection running. And I doubt developers want WinCE (wince, get it?) functionality at the cost of speed. Gaming is very competitive and programming more or less directly to the hardware give you a big edge. It might not matter for someone making a browser for the system, but it does to the guy making the game. Developers don't do it to show of their coding skills. They do it because
A) Its easy enough. Only have to write one set of custom code, and no maintainability issues. Once a set of code for a general type of game has been written, then the company re-uses it for future projects. But no need to make a general purpose OS to handle everything, an OS suitable for a driving game would suck when you ran the latest RPG!
B) Its fast as a hell. Crash3 warp would bog down a 133MHz computer with a Voodoo card. Consider this is running on a 33MHz MIPS proc. with a 1994 era graphics chip. It has transparancy, something playstation isn't technically supposed to be able to do. I know you Linux people like abstraction and code reuse and "services at cost of performance" but thats not how its done in gaming. People expect games to continue to get better on the same exact hardware and expect 100% bug free programs.
Alex St. John once said that computer users pay a 80% OS tax on everything and its true. If it really doesn't help, why bother putting an GPOS on the system?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I think there are a few points that will go over most Slashdotter's heads. The first one that I would like to clear up is... DREAMCAST DOES NOT RUN WINCE. A version of it has been made, the web browser uses it I think, but thats about the extent of it. A developer would be stupid to run WinCE, or ANY general purpose OS for that matter, on gaming hardware. Another thing I think a lot of people miss is that this is probably will not run the Windows derived OS for games, just different apps like browsers and such. On a console, the OS is just a bunch of support libraries wrapped around a real time kernel. In the Playstation for example, the OS is just 32K, not just the kernel, the whole thing. Remember, in a console, the system doesn't really need most of the services that other systems need. A network API? Just make a direct interface to TCP/IP. Graphics drivers? Why? Just write some ASM libraries to access graphics hardware directly. Memory protection? Who needs it? Virtual memory, maybe necessary cuz of the HD, but greatly simplified due to the fact that only one process is running. Which brings up another key point. The OS on a console does no governing whatsoever. There is not contention between process for resources. If it is needed, the app accesses it directly. As I remember, most of the first playstation games were written in ASM for the large part. And if you think running Linux on this bad boy is a good idea, all I ask is why? UNIX is a general purpose OS and a very abstracted one at that. Sure it may be cool to get it running, but will it be useful? Ultimatly I think it is a bad idea for general purpose OSs to try to get on game consoles. You're talking about a market where stability is not really key, but people are used to it. I'm not talking UNIX stability either. I have had my N64 for about 5 years. In that time, only one game has frozen on me. One! What is that like a 1600 day uptime? I think you can say that because this machine was being used at 100% for 2 or 3 (not just me, my brother) hours a day on average for 1600 days, easily the load of the linux email server sitting in the corner for 3 years.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
This is almost too funny to be true. Stack up these two machines.
PS2:
-300 MHz processor
-32 meg RAM
-no HD
X-Box
-1000Mhz proc
-64 meg RAM
-4 gig HD
X-Box wins right? Wrong! When you consider that the 300MHz proc in the PS2 is made to run games and only games, you realize that it wipes the floor of even the 1GHz proc. Then you realize, hey! the Windows derived OS will take up half the RAM! Playstation's OS is about 32K and probabaly won't get over 512K in PS2. Okay fine the HD is there. That way MS can issue patches for the system. Then trow in the fact that the PS2 graphics processer whoops the ass of even the GeForce (theoretical 75M/triangles per second vs. theoretical 15M/triangles per second) you see who will trump who. I thing that MS really was really dreamig when they thought this one up.
A. If they can it it in under $300 I will print out the slash code and eat it.
B. If they can get people who are used to one crash in 5 years and bug-free games to live with a crash a week and endless patches, then have the government sue them for using mind control.
MS is in way over its head on this one.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I don't care if they built it around a quantum computer (Well ok, I might care if they did)! with
holographic displays. The damn thing still came from Microsoft, who now apparently thinks the software industry isn't big enough, they have to try to corner the console market too?
Screw that, I'm still buying a Playstation II.
Microsoft, stick to what you know (or claim to know)...GENERIC SOFTWARE!
There would be no antitrust case because MS doesn't have a monopoly in the console business. They are entering a new and unrelated industry and just because they have a stockpile of cash doesn't mean they are a monopoly. Besides there is plenty of competition in the industry right now so an antitrust case would not fly.
To wince - to shrink or start involuntarily, as in pain or distress; flinch.
Great games
They quote MCV UK as the source - a British computer game industry trade mag. MCV doesn't have any online presence that I can find, though.
The few times I've read it it was alright. I no longer receive it but perhaps someone here does.
Great games
I'd buy one... cant beat that 149 dollar price tag... but I would really hope that I could wipe windows off of it. now, THAT would be a sweet deal :)
The video subsystem pretty much defines a game console. MS will put in a GeForce if they know what's good for 'em.
and
Up to 1 GHz CPU
They've lost right there. Who want's to go to the store and wonder how fast they want their gaming console to be? One of the great things about it was that there was only one choice (per vendor). You'll buy a game, have a blast playing it on your 1GHZ machaine at home and then take it over to a friends to show him/her, and it will play like shit 'cause they could only afford the $149 400MHZ console.
Just remember 1GHZ chips arent out yet (perhaps kryotech or alpha). When they are they will probably cost upwards of $800-900. One year later (2001 launch date for Xbox) the average chip prices will be nowhere near making this economically feasible for microsoft.
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
Yep. (although the problem was a corrupted dll)
I've also had win98 crash during the install process. (haven't figured that one out yet)
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
So they come up with vaporware of their own.
hmm 1Ghz, dvd, etc. I think the time that this costs the consumer $149 will be not sooner than 5 years from now. At which point, something better will be available anyways. No mention of 3d chips either.. interesting.
My sig is ugly, deal.
(`._(`._( , , . JimmyPop[nL] . , , )_.)_.)
for micros~1 to get out of bed with intel is extremely unlikely.
poopie.
(`._(`._( , , . JimmyPop[nL] . , , )_.)_.)
I bet it will come with a Microsoft(tm) WIN-DVD drive, WINmodem, WINmemory, WINvideo card, and a WINprocessor that are all emulated using software on an Intel 8051 processor overclocked to 33mhz. "We said it was supposed to run at 1Ghz, but that was in testing labs with REAL hardware. Now be happy little drones and take what we give you. Long live the Ballmer!" :^)
I think MS can get away with having Licensing fees for the X-Box, but not Windows. If the licensing fees are on a per unit basis the developers have little to lose. The idea seems to be that it will take very little effort to port the Windows games to the X-Box. I expect developers will port it, pay the licensing fees, and pass the costs on to the consumers. Maybe an X-Box game will cost a bit more than a Windows game. In the end, it's more profit for developers with little development costs involved. I don't think a licensing fee will make many developers hesitate. The question will be if the price is higher, and if consumers will pay it.
Actually, in my opinion Microsoft did a pretty good job on IE, at least versions 4 and 5. Some of Microsoft's hardware has been pretty cool in the past. They don't fall short on everything, just most things.
Considering that the PSX2 is likely to be in the $350 range, and Sony will likely be losing money on them at that price the $150 price tag seems awfully low even if it doesn't come out for a year or more.
However, if Microsoft plans on making money off of the games like Sony does with the playstation, I think they will still get a lot of developer support. Microsoft has done a very good job at providing game developers with tools and APIs. If microsoft continues with this, it will be considerably easier to port Windows based PC titles to the X-Box than any other game console. They've also already have some experience in the console business after working with Sega on the Dreamcast.
Microsoft's hardware is usually pretty well designed, and a console's OS doesn't need to have support for every piece of hardware on the face of the earth, so they can concentrate on getting the features and hardware support they need working well. The oppertunity is there, wether or not Microsoft will pull it off is another thing.
I wonder if the X-Box will work with Microsoft's terminal server? They may be planning to recoup some of their profits by selling Windows 2000 client licenses, or by making Office apps available only by rental or subscription.
It will be interesting to see what they try and do to keep these from becomming cheap Linux boxes.
This is just a guess, but I betting the key to a cheap processor is that it won't be an Athlon. AMD is saying that the K6-2+ will be done in a 0.18 micron process. That may allow it to fit into the "up to 1GHz" range they're talking about by the time the X-Box hits the market. As for the prices of the other components, things are much cheaper when you buy direct and in volume. Manufacturers would be willing to give Microsoft good prices and live with low margins if they can get designed in to a high volume product. The prices we see on the market have to include profit for the manufacturer, distributor, and vendor you eventually buy it from.
The AMD K6-2+ won't be able to provide the FPU power of the Athlon, or PIII processors, but the 1GHz clock speed makes for really good marketing among the masses. The $150 price does seem low. Maybe it will be in the $350 range, maybe the Playstation will be getting such a foothold that Microsoft will be willing to lose that much on each unit and make it up on the software somehow. Maybe they'll try to make their money through MSN, or some other service they'll provide.
I expect Microsoft will continue to "leak" info and tweak the features such as the CPU speed as well as the price untill they find the "revenue maximising price", as always.
Why should I trust you?
Remember Mulder: trust no-one...
- passion
How are M$ going to control and take a cut of all games that run on Windows?
Easily. The OS won't be on the box, it'll be on the game disc. That way they can continually improve the OS/API (no doubt an M$ selling point), and games always use the exact same version they were developed for. Of course, the real reason is that it guarantees M$ a piece of every game.
What about an alternative OS to interact with the hardware? I don't know how Sony keeps non-licensed games off the PlayStation (or Nintendo, Sega, etc.), but I'm guessing M$ will use the same tactic.
Hey, everybody! Stop thinking about the cost to manufacture this thing (e.g., they couldn't use Athlon/Intel/etc., it would have to be StrongARM/Crusoe/etc.). That is not an issue. MS can use whatever hardware they want and set whatever price point they want. There is very little connection between the two. The revenue stream with consoles isn't the hardware (and never has been) and M$ is starting this race in last place. If they have to give the hardware away, they will. It is an investment and they've got a LOT of money to invest.
Also, games aren't the only potential revenue stream and you can bet they are going to tap the others. Games are the tip of the iceberg. If this thing is in development, it is meant as a WebTV-like device (I'd be suprised if they didn't release it under that brand), a console aimed at the 50% of the population that don't own a computer and maybe never will.
This would be the honey for the flies M$ hasn't caught. : )
As for the pricing, all games boxen are sold as loss leaders
The manufacturer has to make their money from somewhere. They either make it on the box or on the software. The current game boxes such as Nintendo and Sony can afford to loss-lead on the boxes since they control and take a cut on all the games. How are M$ going to control and take a cut of all games that run on Windows?
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
couple years ago when reel.com started selling titanic, they sold it for $9.99... this is lower than what they were paying for it. i don't recall any legal action being taken against them. are you not allowed to take a loss *on a specific product* or is it that you can't make a loss overall? reel.com's revenues went up because they drew so many people to their site, who in turn purchased other movies...
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you must amputate to email me
i read all replies to my comments
Also like other people have said. The Playstation (the first one) is a 25 mhz machine. It is really really fast compared to a 25mhz x86. Comparing 300mhz to 1000mhz isn't a straight up comparison to begin with. Not to mention I have yet to see a 3d graphics card for x86 that can create the mind-boggling animation that I have seen for PSX2.
Another point is that they will release patches. How will I get these patches? Does this mean that all X-Box users will have to pay $15/month to get an internet connection just so they can download patches, just to play games? Alot of people already have internet connections, and alot don't, it wouldn't be fair to those that don't if they had to get one just to play games.
Which brings up another question. Will Microsoft's ISP of choice be mandatory? I can just see them coming out with automatic patch download and installation with the requirement of using thier "special" ISP.
Several items here. First, Microsoft has no qualms about selling items off at a loss to gain a foothold in an emerging market. For example, you can buy a WebTV unit for $99. The unit costs $199 to make. So, Microsoft has to reimburse the manufacturers $100 for every unit that they sell. It sounds like a ludicrous business plan (we'll make it up in volume!), until you realize that if Microsoft controls your internet gateway, there is a lot of subsidiary income to be made with ad banners, third-party contracts, and Microsoft "quick facts" that dis Novell or Linux. We're talking captive audience here. Also, remember that Internet Explorer by Microsoft's own numbers costs tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to support, maintain, and upgrade. How much would your company pay to give products away? Not much, unless you are trying to stop competitors from making competing APIs. Second, is there a mention of when this XBox will come out? The price might be based on optimistic expectations of processor deveolpment, hard drive storage density (already $10 a gig essentially), memory ($1 a meg now), modems ($5), and DVD development (if done in software, it's a lot cheaper, yet slower). Comparing today's prices with the prices of six months to a year from now is not always accurate. Besides, the OS costs nothing to them. and finally, it could be vaporware in the sense that why would you buy Nintendo if Microsoft's hardware kicked ass and was only, oh, a few months away? This is the same company that was going to release Windows NT 5.0 in 1998 as the synthesis of NT and 95. Now Windows 2000 is due in February with a number of bugs, and the 95/NT line will not converge until at least 2003. So, taking their first "crack at the ball" in terms of expectations seriously will just result in heartache and pain. Also, how enticing would it be for Microsoft to say, "Why would you want to code for Playstation when you could code for PCs and XBox simultaneously?". Two markets are better than one, and if the change in code from one system to another was accomplished by going into Visual Studio and clicking Compile -> x86 or Compile -> XBox, well then damn. So, if it's not true, it helps them. And if it is true, then Microsoft has done it again.
I highly doubt the X-Box will be cheaper than the PS2 by the time it is released. The X-Box is nothing more than rumors for now, while the PS2 will be in Japan in a month. Even if it is cheaper from the start, Sony will be able to drop the PS2 price and still have the advantage.
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I just wish I could c:\format Internet
Actually, console game developers have always paid licensing fees. Ever notice that all boxes and instruction books have the same basic color scheme? Yep, license fee. Ever notice how all cartridge games look the same on a system? Yep, license fee. And there's the fact that they don't want to just put out the exact specs on everything in their system.
An example of an unlicensed game would be some crap that my grandparents got for me at a christian bookstore. It was a gameboy cart, but it was black, didn't have the tab for the power switch(original gameboy), didn't have plastic over the connectors, didn't fit in my game genie, and had a big thing in the front of the manual saying it was not licensed.
Or I'm completely wrong.....it has happened before.
--Have a Johsonville brat.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...I see what you are saying. Problem is, if they don't charge licensing fees for the x-box, they are going to take a dive on it. You don't actually think they can put these out for under 300 bucks a box without some other kind of revenue coming in?
--Have a Johsonville brat.
When you think of it, this has to be either a screaming deal or a total hoax. The "up to 1GHz" processor would cost $500+ (i'm estimating low since it's a console =) and DVD, 56k mode, 4GB hard drive, etc, are all things that would tip a consumer PC past $750 at least. For $149 this has got to be some fantasic production process!
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Someone here has already mentioned what a low reputation Nintendo Next has in the gaming world. I found more evidence of this in their "Why Dolphin will beat the Playstation 2" article which is linked to from the MS X-Box story. Now, I'm just a senior computer engineering student, but the "reasons" they give are pretty lame. ("Dolphin's CPU is made by IBM and PS2's is made by Toshiba. Of course, IBM's will be better because they're a better company.")
bp
woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
From the specs:
...Windows Derived OS...
I'm sorry, but when I read that, it just made me WinCE...
Seriously, does anyone know if this "Windows Derived OS" is a threat in terms of system resources consumption? Presumably that's something you want to minimize on a console.
-Ravagin
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is NPR! And that means....it's time for a drum solo!"
Karma: T-rexcellent.
-backward compatability
-faster floating point performance than any PC
-costs -can be a dvd player
-can be upgraded like a PC
-uses Linux as its development platform
Sorry but this round belongs to sony
Let's not forget that console CPUs are generally optimized for that system. Even though an AMD or Intel can grease that in pure calcuation, the general instruction set of a computer isn't optimized for gaming (unfortunately).
And what's this about using the GeForce???
Lusers, lusers, everywhere and not a LART in sight.
Do have any information/thoughts on how the Joshua is going to be priced relative to Celerons?
It's great to have an option to upgrade for socket 370 owners, but competing against Celerons seems like a pretty tough way to go. Celeries are cheap.
I had a memorable error in Windows 98 SE yesterday.
First I had that win 3.1 style dialog box: Save your work, blah blah...click on ignore or close. I forget which one I chose. Shortly after that another dialog box pops up (win98 style) and tells me:
Cannot load Explorer.exe. You must reinstall Windows 98.
It wasn't an user error. It was Windows being flaky. Thanks for contributing, and even moreso by being specific.
The reason that they are comparing it to the playstation two is that the playstation two is coming out first. That means that for their console to succeed they have to convince people to not buy the playstation two and instead wait until their console comes out.
If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
OTOH if it does come out like that at that price, I'm going to buy one and butcher it for components for my current (P200) PC.
At that price, I doubt they are going to be using standard parts. I'm willing to bet that making proprietary parts, while expensive because they have to design it themselves, would end up making things cheaper for us because we cannot use them in any way other than in this box. Of course, you could hack it, but that's illegal. Not like that's ever stopped people before...but still, it IS illegal. Unless you were designing a box to play the same games and the box ran Linux...then reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability might come in to play.
Welcome to Slashdot. Please do not feed the trolls.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
What's the point of buying a net-enabled box that won't work with my DSL line?
That is the point! (sarcasm=ON)M$ will only sell this thing with a 20 year contract with MSN! In fact, I think that if you die, the contract falls onto your next of kin. Not bad for $149! Oh, and 19.95/month for 20 years...
Total cost of ownership is a sweet $5k baby! (sarcasm=OFF)
Something called "X-Box" sounds like it ought to be running the X Window System.
I smell a lawsuit....
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
Well, I'm sure I could sit here all day long and attempt to evaluate why Sony is against bleem. But I think its probably because they suspect the people using bleem are playing with copied cd's and also due to the fact that Sony probably feels that they should be the only ones to make a PS emulator. I mean think, which way does Sony make more money: Bleem sells more PS games than the PS alone does, or Sony makes a PS emulator and sells both more games and the emulator. Of couse, I'd also point out that as a member of the MPAA and the RIAA, Sony does not have a history of "getting it."
Well... The system will most likely be an x86, as it will run an AMD/Intel chip and run a Windows derivitive. To make things simple, Microsoft will probably make it something like a PC whuch uses a monitor (but the one reason I like consoles is that they DON'T crash... oh well.) So, by my uninformed guess, I think that Linux could most likey run on this system :)
The X-Box looks really lame... first off... more powerful than the ps2 (much less the dolphin?) a PIII 733 can't hold a candle to the ps2, will 1ghz really make much of a difference? Great... now to play games im going to HAVE to download patches all the time. One reason why I like consoles more than computer (for gaming) is that I don't have to deal with patches. I take comfort in buying a game and not having to connect to the net to download what should have been fixed before it was rushed. The X-Box is a joke... hmm.. lemme see... if i buy a 486dx2 50, 4 megs of ram, a video card, a dvd drive, a video card and motherboard... that'll come out to around 80$ Now is microsoft trying to say they can get a 1GHz chip, 64 megs of ram, a dvd drive (w/ full movie functions /licensing costs) and all the other little stuff for only double the amount? Microsoft must have some type of magical ass to pull that out of.
"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
Secondly, why use the name X-Box? It seems as though they are trying to confuse people about Linux. What better way to do so than by creating something with a name like X-Box, when Linux and X-Windows is stamping out Microsoft machines left-right and centre?
That's all,
c0rarc
FWIW, other rumors have stated that the X-Box will use an AMD CPU, an nVidia graphics chipset, and the OS will be CE. Sounds like a Dreamcast on steriods.
I don't care if the system has 32 GHz and 128 terabytes of ram and runs windows 2000, what games will it have? The only reason I bought a playstation was because it had some really cool games. Final fantasy is pretty much guaranteed to be developed for the playstation 2 for the next 3 years. Plus the playstation 2 will be able to play most of the playstation 1 games. That means out of the box I will be able to play all the games that convinced me to get a playstation in the first place. What does Microsoft have to offer? It has little to no console game history and I haven't heard that some of the major console gaming companies are planing to make games for the xbox. It looks like anyone who buys the $150 m$ system will have to wait till all their PC favorites are ported. Meanwhile everyone else will have their playstaion 2's with lots of cool old fashion fun console games. Microsoft doesn't have a chance with out games, even with 1 GHz processors and a hard drive to boot.
Linux is really boring from an os standpoint. Now Plan 9......
1Ghz CPU!!
/etc/shadow file in 2 minutes! Microsoft X-box Linux distro. (joking)
Jesus Christ, I really hope someone can port Linux to one of these things!! : )
For $1000 (The price of the average PC) you could buy a crap load of these things and do a cluster from hell!
Re-render the Matrix at home, raise you seti units by ten fold in the first day, compute dynamic fluids in seconds, re-create the JFK murder and crack any
The thing about the console games, is (for the most part) high code quality. If "Metal Gear Solid" has a bug in it, they can't release a patch fix, so (most) companies make sure the game is solid, and have as many bugs kicked out BEFORE the game goes to market.
Microsoft does have a good game market, I hope the standard of the rest of the consoles "code correctness" carries over. I would hate to get a call at 2:00 in the morning from a freind
"Hey I flash my "BIOS" with the lastest MS service pack and now all of the games made by West Wood studios don't work, could you come over and take a look at it"
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Shame about the OS. I wonder if we could hack it and put a version of Linux on it. :-)
All in all this is a disappointing Slashdot post...The "specs" are still very vague and nothing that hasn't been previously speculated upon.
Microsoft has a fair bit of experience due to Windows CE. Windows CE may be a lot of things, but its not unstable. Try using a CE device. The OS for this console will almost certainly be a light-weight wrapper over DirectX, winsock, and very little else. Even Microsoft isn't likely to fuck that up much.
Did you ever hear about the PSX needing upgrades and service packs?
Comparing a console to a PC is useless. PSX doesn't have to worry about new hardware, non-standard hardware, etc. I don't really understand why people rip on Microsoft for service packs -- I mean, does anyone rip on Linux for having so frequent kernel upgrades?
Finally, if they need a 1 GHz processor to work this thing, then they're doing something wrong. The PS2 achieves 25M pps with only a dedicated 266 processor. A 1 GHz processor sounds like infinitely more than what's needed to power a cutting-edge gaming platform at this time.
Using Intel processors basically means you need more mhz than other true-RISC processors for the same type of performance. This need for high mhz numbers is offset by the bonus of having a standard CPU, allowing developers to easily create XBox apps on a regular PC and the Intel CPU economies of scale.
This is gonna bomb. M$ is not ready for this.
Maybe it'll bomb, but I doubt it. How many people said Sony wasn't ready to jump into the console market? Don't underestimate the power of brand and marketing. Microsoft hasn't, that's why Bill Gates is richer than God.
Also, the OS SHOULD be really light weight, compared to desktop Windows.
They are expected to be slightly cheaper according to press releases.
I will stick with my athlon system for a while longer and just keep my eyes on the PS2.
1GHz clock speed and 64 MB of RAM... what would Gene Amdahl say? (for balanced system performance you need 1MB main memory per 1MHz memory bandwidth per 1MHz CPU speed) Granted we don't stick too close to that on most PC's but this is just way out of whack!
I seriously hope they consider throwing more in there; I mean, 128 is pretty much the norm these days and for a "cutting-edge" machine, it should at least have 128. Perhaps it's just going to have really fast virtual memory :P .
with only 64 meg ram. Seems like putting a 454 in a Yugo. And windows on top of that...
But I guess if one company can afford to subsidize their hardware that far it's microsoft.
Seriously, can general purpose PC type hardware deliver the games performance people want at a sub-console price, I dont think so, you pay for the flexibility of a PC and I reckon dedicated hardware like PS2 will wipe the floor with it.
OTOH if it does come out like that at that price, I'm going to buy one and butcher it for components for my current (P200) PC.
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Infinitely more than what's needed? PSX2 claims 6.2 Gflops. A 1 GHz Athlon does 4 Gflops IIRC, but isn't X-Box supposed to come with a GeForce to do hardware T&L, which is worth a few Gflops? PSX2 has 3.2 Gbytes/s memory bandwidth, what about an Athlon, 200 MHz system bus is 1.6 Gbyte/s. Seems to me we're comparing red apples and green apples.
Your dumping argument is brilliant. IANAL, but if anyone out there can back this guy up, you'll make me very happy.
FGN Online and other web sites reported the same news, FGN cited MCV has their source, MCV is bussinnes publication about the gaming industry so it has a little bit more credibility.
Yes, it had to be said because some people continue to delude themselves into thinking that microsoft is capable of making a superior product.
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He lives in a world where those who do not run the client software of the omnipresent meme are unacceptable.
Also included is a 19" TV. Rumor has it that it only tunes to MSNBC when you turn it on, though (plus it keeps a little logo in the corner when watching any channel).
Oh, and I bet the X-Box won't be available in Europe until over a year after the US release.
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
Maybe that price 'includes' one of those $400 MSN "rebates" you get when you sign up for 3 years - it has a 56k modem packaged with it, after all. And I have seen (well, perceived, anyway) a renewed push by MS to sell their ISP.
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
>With that said, I think they're in for a big shocker. The games business is notoriously
>cutthrought and they'll have to go up against companies that have HUGE market share (Sony) and
>ones that are even more propriatary and greedy than MS themselves (Nintendo).
Exactly! As much as we knock MS for being proprietary, the console makers are so restrictive with developers they make Bill Gates look like Linus Torvalds. Imagine having Visual C++ as the only development environment. Imagine having to submit your games to MS for approval before you can release it. This is what console developers have to do.
This (relative) openness would be a breath of fresh air in the console market. Nintendo seems to be especially zealous with allowing only kid and family-friendly games. Could you imagine seeing Carmageddon or Grand Theft Auto or even Fallout (which had some sexual themes) on a Nintendo?
true, the fact that it says the hard drive will let you get upgrades, is very suspicious =)
errera hunamum ets
Any bets as to how long it will take to port Linux to it? This assumes of course that M$ would be willing to release specs (not very likely...)
ok i agree with the person who said that there is no way to get it to that price becuase of the features costs but if they were fall down to the same features as say the ps2 then they might get it to 149 grammar is over rated
lose != loose
If I remember correctly, Transmeta CPUs will be priced around $150 for 700 MHz. The article said for as low as $150. Maybe they'll use a Transmeta CPU. They probably lose money to begin with, but the can afford to.
remove cap letters to email
M$ is designing for the lowest common denominator, just like they do for all their products.
$150 for the system is just about right. here's the math: 1 GHZ CPU, $700 64MB RAM, +$200 4GB HDD, +$150 ================= SUB-TOTAL $1050 Windows -$900 ----------------- TOTAL $150 See, it works. Windows is a liability.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
(sorry about the previous posting, just pasted it in there) $150 for the system is just about right. here's the math:
1 GHZ CPU, $700
64MB RAM, +$200
4GB HDD, +$150
=================
SUB-TOTAL $1050
Windows -$900
-----------------
TOTAL $150
See, it works. Windows is a liability.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
If all the other manufacturers are selling their game consoles at a loss, then it would be OK for Microsoft to do that, too. But if they are all making their profits in the game publishing business, then Microsoft had better make a profit at it, too. A generation or two of loss leaders to "cut off the air supply" would land Microsoft in another antitrust suit. An antitrust suit that would be much easier for the DOJ/FTC to win. Predatory pricing is usually ruled on a Per Se basis. All the DOJ/FTC would need to prove is that it is happening. They wouldn't even have to prove that it was harming competition or consumers. And you know that the Gov't would jump on any chance they had to sue Microsoft again...
That doesn't make it 100% reliable, mind you, but there's more than a grain of truth to the hardware excuses.
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fat lenny's gonna lick your brain today.
Oh no - this sort of news makes me want to bang my head off the wall... What the hell are MS doing meddling with the console game market ? How many pieces of software sitting on an MS OS fall over at a regular rate ? How many games written for consoles fall over ? People suffer crap PC software 'because it's a PC' - and expect to have to arse around with to get things running. With a console, if it's not singing within 5 seconds of power on, it's in the bin. The average punter out there considers a games machine to be like any other 'appliance' - it just works, first time - every time. Some of the reasons: * OS - what OS? Console programmers neither need or want an OS in the machine buggering things up for them. * Fixed standards. Once a Playstation - always a Playstation. Stashing DLL's and other crud on a HD will make console programming as painful as PC programming. You think MS are going to make this gaming OS open source and optional for developers ? No way am I going to trust the hidden innards of an MS OS for MY games. * Punters don't buy consoles - they buy games. Developers make games. You can bet that the dev environment for this X-Box will be VisualStudio (groan) - the LAST thing developers want is to have to suffer MS bloatware for writing games. * Console manufacturers give really good support for their developers because they are all licensed. Open it up to the public, and the support vanishes because of the deluge of hobbyists asking how to set up double buffering etc. Not good. * Console people hold software back until as many bugs as possible are ironed out. MS seems to push software out the door as soon as it'll boot, then cleans up the slop if enough people moan.... This would NOT be tolerated by games players. Rant over.. I thank you..
All this time, Microsoft has been stressing the fact that Windows was sush an open platform OS which didn't require any special hardware. Is this the first step towards a MS hardware market?
The original article in question can be found at X-Box Article
As much as I love my PSX games and my computer games I have to say they fail in comparison to the old Nintendo games. It seems lately that gaming industries are trying to make more processing power, better graphics enhancement, and prettier consoles. But what about the actual game play itself? As far as plot goes in games Nintendo is number 1 by far, the original NES system had Zelda. The SNES console had the Final Fantasies, Breath of Fires, Lufia, and a whole bunch of other cool games... and since game developers couldn't really depend on graphics back then, they had to rely upon game plots. I'm not saying that PSX has no good games, but Nintendo games are much better. In conclusion i'd like to say that its not really the package itself that matters, but whats inside the package that counts... I mean does it really matter if my toaster can play DVD's or not... I dont care!!! As long as my gaming console plays games and I can get it at a resonable cost.. GREAT! - Neocount
1 GHrz? It would be nice and all, but that also carries a hefty price tag. How can they only charge $150 for it? Perhaps they are they planning for a release in 10 years? It sounds great... execpt for the windows derived OS. Wouldn't it suck to be right at the end of a game and get a GPF?! Axiom
No, it didn't have to be said because that fact is :)
blatantly obvious
Actually, the game console market is rather different from the PC market. And I have the impression that most of the people posting on this article are missing the point: 80% of game console users DO NOT OWN A PC. THEY DO NOT CONNECT TO THE INTERNET FROM HOME. But they do know MS from the office. And since that's all they know, they will believe it's OK. On top of the extremely low price, it offers them "free" Internet access through MSN, service pack availability notices etc... And they'll buy it. They don't have a clue on how to set up a PC anyway. And a game console you just plug some cables and press a damn button... And don't worry where M$ is going to get the money from. Even if they don't, they will kick out other players in the console market, and that's one more step towards world domination. And you might get quite soon an X-Box emulator for Windoze, released by M$, which users can download free, but that developpers will have to pay if they want their games to run on it. (I wonder if they think that creating a Windows-based OS using DirectX will get them anywhere...even with a 1Ghz CPU)
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Maybe it'll bomb, but I doubt it. How many people said Sony wasn't ready to jump into the console market? Don't underestimate the power of brand and marketing. Microsoft hasn't, that's why Bill Gates is richer than God.
Anyone remember the Panasonic 3DO? Arguably the best, but undoubtedly the most dead and buried 32 bit gaming system. Certainly Panasonic had the brand name and marketing power going for it, so why did it fail so miserably?
The thing about the game console market is that it operates on a principle of momentum that ripples through a number of levels. The most basic level of this momentum begins with the consumer: when a few kids living on a particular street in Generica, USA buy a particular console, all the other kids on their street have incentives to buy the same console. This allows them to all borrow games from friends without blowing their precious small allowances on new games. It also lets them trade game secrets & tips and makes it easier to engage in multiplayer games since everyone is familiar with the same game. This momentum from the consumer ripples over to developers making more games for that particular console, which makes more people buy that console, etc.
The point here is that X-Box's success will depend on a number of vital things aside from marketing $'s. Its equally important that it is the console first to market in its class with several eagerly-awaited killer titles that make the early adopters go out and buy the machine in the first place.
If Microsoft is as sloppy about this as they are about everything else, we can expect that they will flounder early on and then make a bunch of marketing execs rich while trying to catch up.
Microsoft® Dental Floss(TM) for sale!
I know it's made by Microsoft and all, but come on do we really _have_ to diss them every chance we get =D. I think the specs look pretty cool, and it will probably kick PS2's ass. A $149 launch price is a welcome change too.
Sounds feasible...Nintendo's largest downfall recently (from my own POV) is their lack of good games. Plus breaking into the console market by acquisition seems most similar to M$ style. Oh well...I still don't like the idea of having to shell out cash to Billy Gates 'cause I want to play the latest Final Fantasy.
//radiotakeover.
Couldn't the 1GHZ chip be one of the Crusoe chips from Transmeta. I think they're not very expensive. And run at very low temperatures. So it could push 1ghz and not get fried. Why does it have to be a pentium? certainly AMD makes cheaper chips comparable to PIII's
Other uses:
$149 kickass webserver.
$149 kickass Samba server.
$149 kickass MP3 jukebox (and mp3 encoder).
$149 kickass FTP server.
$149 kickass IRC server.
$149 kickass proxy server.
(This is assuming the machine's running some form of UNIX, as a headless Windows box is about as useful as a bag of mud.)
You get my point.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
"with 300MHz Celerons still at 75$ "
Where do you buy your CPUs? Perhaps you were talking Canadian or Australian dollars!
With that budget you could do much better:
Boxed Celeron 433 @ $71
http://www.ibuyer.net/sprodcat.html?cid =163
OEM Celeron 466 @ $78
http://www.ibuyer.net/sprodcat.html?cid =839
Even Microsoft can't take that much of a loss on the hardware. Yeah, you can take some loss and make it up with the licensing (Sony's done it for years with the PSX). But not that much. The chips alone are going to cost more than that, never mind the DVD drive and various other peripherals. Yeah, eventually the prices are going to drop, but by the time they drop to the point where the $175 price isn't outright suicidal, the gaming companies will be selling better systems for less money.
Remember the lesson Pippin taught us: computer companies should stick to computers, and let console companies take care of the console business. Sony seems to be the notable exception to this rule, but if I'm not mistaken they made the PSX before they got into the computer business. MS can't count on having Sony's kind of luck, particularly with that target price.
By the way, what're they going to call the OS, "Windows X"? How much more rip-off can you get? Thanks, but no thanks, M$; I want a console that doesn't bluescreen everytime I play.
I have. It takes some doing but when Windows get's seriusly messed up it will crash in safe mode. I guse you wold only see that if you repair broken Windows all the time. BTW : fdisk -> format -> setup fixes eaven those Windows setups that are bad enogh to crash in safe mode. So much for "hardware problems". ( Except one that had a genuine memory error and woldn't even run DOOM reliably. ( A 32 bit memory bug of some sort ).
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
That's the one thing they'll never do. For all his faults, Bill Gates knows that having unhindered development is the road to success. He's argued the point on many occasions, and from what I've heard, they plan to do the same for the X-Box. They'll just release the box, and a development kit and let anyone develop for it. No official submission, no licensing fees. Just find yourself a publisher and/or distribution deal and away you go. That is what's going to kill Sega, Sony and Nintendo, not the technical superiority of the box (in fact, they don't even need to be technically superior).
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Yep. PIII/Athlon are too big, too expensive, and do too much. A games console doesn't need one. What it needs is a good media processing chip. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest they may be using a Nuon. It has all the attributes needed for a good games console, and in particular, should be priced very cheaply.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Hey, the only thing that makes or breaks a console is the games. Specs don't count for anything (look at 3DO or the Jaguar) it's all in the games.
'Nature's got a way, brothers, of scraping the bowl'
Console games are NOT meant to be run on off the shelf parts, this thing /will/ flop. When you're playing games on your TV you want a dedicated graphics rendering engine and you just plain want speed and perty pictures. Now, with that out of the way let me say that the line /is/ starting to blur, but i don't know....the "X-Box" sounds an awfully lot like what it's name implies....a pipe dream.
;)
But that's just my opinion
Maybe they're experts at everything and that is what leads them to like Linux. I'm sure they think that they are. (like there's anybody at this site that doesn't think of themselves that way)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I was thinking the same thing. $149 is close to free... and we all know what it means to get a free pc... you have to pay for something.
But otherwise does this mean my game console could be infected by Word macro viruses?
I'd hardly think of a harddrive as an asset to a gaming console. What's it good for? An internet cache?
For a pure gaming machine I'd agree, however, who said this was going to only be a gaming machine? I'd say that Microsoft is more likely to go after the elusive set-top box market. It's where all the future consoles are trying to be at some point down the road.
If it really does come out in 2001 with a 1GHZ cpu, I'd think it'd cost WAY more than $150 with those specs.
Remember, consoles are always loss leader (as meantioned in other posts). The $150 is cheap for the hardware, but so is the price for any gaming console you buy. Plus, you have too look at the time line of this thing. Right now it's rediculous, when it's finally released, it may not be so bad.
NTSC (that's those TV thingies) are more like 378x200 something. If you do the math, it take rediculously less power to drive the same number of polygons around at that resolution.
Until HDTV becomes prominent. I guarentee that this thing comes HDTV ready which means it will be pushing at higher resolutions. And over engineered? I hardly think anyone would argue that that would be a bad thing (for the price).
So maybe MS is thinking about a PC replacement?
Like I said, MS wants to take over the future set-top box market. The X-Box is there way to do that. PC functionality in your living room. It plays games, and DVD's and lets you surf the Web and who knows what else. It's been a lot of companies goal for a long time now, and everyone has failed thus far (3D0, Phillips, etc). At this price, with this power, and with this brand recogniton, MS may just have the power to pull this out.
With that said, I think they're in for a big shocker. The games business is notoriously cutthrought and they'll have to go up against companies that have HUGE market share (Sony) and ones that are even more propriatary and greedy than MS themselves (Nintendo). They really better have thier shit together if they want to win this war (I'd place my money on Sony this time around).
Maximum comment lenght for Anonymous cowards.. OR atleast in the comment lenght to show part of preferences.. let me select a different lenght for AC or normal!?>>! how bout it>
Windows is entirely capable of self-corrupting that badly. I've had 95 delete its copy of GDI.EXE - and there wasn't a virus anywhere near the system, we did check.
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Selling at a loss can be against the law - if there is just an intent to harm a competitor, in much the same way that swinging a hammer can be against the law - if there is an intent to hit someone in the head.
Selling at a loss is a common practice. Ever hear of a "loss leader"? Grocery stores love to advertise a few grossly under-priced items (often with purchase limits), and then rack up the bucks when people fill the cart.
While people talk about companies attacking the competition, doing something with the purpose of harming a competitor is generally not allowed. Since intent can be hard to prove, this generally means a company can't do something that harms a competitor but provides no direct benefit. Predatory pricing is just one example of this. This doesn't mean that a company is obligated to avoid harming competitors (what meaning could "compete" have?), just that it can't go out of its way to cause harm.
If MS intends to put Sega, Nintendo, and Sony out of the game console business by taking large losses for several years, and thereby gain a monopolistic position from which to reap huge profits, they will face legal action.
(IANAL, and I am disgusted by legally enforced monopolies on certain types of speech)
There's one conceivable reason why they'd put a hard drive in one of these things. Can anyone say: bundling WebTV? They wouldn't be leveraging a monopoly in either market, so there wouldn't even be a potential antitrust suit. Woe be unto the consumer who buys one of these things.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Mhz are one of the most meaningless speed measurements these days, *especially* when referring to console processors.
The PS2 has a 300MHz processor, but what is hidden is that fact that it has 2 additional 300MHz vector coprocessors, creating a total of about 12 floating point accumulators and 6 dividers that can be used simultaneously, yielding (yet another meaningless statistic) 6.2Gigaflops. However, since VU0 and VU1 are heavily optimized for vector processing (as opposed to dividing by 0), the majority of the 6.2 billion floating point operations can be utilized in the average case. Add to that the Emotion Engine's fully 128-bit design, and you've got a processor that can outrun any intel processor up to ~1.5Ghz, and a memory bus that can actually supply needed data when it is needed. Granted, a Willamette 1500 would be able to do integer operations much faster than the Emotion Engine, making it a better general-purpose CPU; however, for gaming and signal processing integer operations are minimally important, making the EE a much better processor for multimedia purposes.
What MS has forgotten is that the PC platform is a terrible architecture for gaming. Everything about it is just mere upgrades on 20 year-old technology. Maybe Microsoft has something really sneaky up their sleeves, such as using a 1Ghz SH-4 (Dreamcast processor) and a custom-designed bus to an optimized GeForce 256 processor. That could (theoretically) approach PS2 level performance, but I'm not going to give MS that much credit.
$75 for a 300mhz Celeron? I got my 400mhz Celeron for $55...oh well.
Also, did they necessarily say Intel? I'm sure someone like AMD would love a nice bulk order...maybe even Cyrix's reincarnation (what company is that again?)
I've noticed a LOT of posts regarding when they'll be able to do this...
The answer: Within a year.
Almost every (if not every) console is sold at a loss. The hardware isn't where the money is, it's the licensing. Microsoft has the money to deploy these at a fair loss, and still make it back from licensing fees, and boom, they still make a profit off of the whole deal...and possibly control of another market.
bug free games?
got tony hawk? create a new game and save it. kill power and load saved game. when selecting skater equipment, look at your wheels. do you see wheels? if you do, hit up once. you should now see no wheels. select this equipment, b00m crash.
I own 2 psx games and I dont make a habit of looking for bugs, but I would imagine there are a lot more than this one.
Just a reminder, Microsoft runs each Business Unit already as a separate business, trust or anti-trust. The HBU (hardware biz unit) has none of the issues that WOBU (windows office biz unit) has, or that the OS BUs have.
The hardware guys are accustomed to making products that are expensive to revise, can't be patched in the field, and need to run under fairly rigorous use without crashing.
When a product can be released patched, from a business perspective, why shouldn't it be released and patched?
(MS Hardware is not MS Software =anagram> Oh wow! Drat! Mainframe's stress)[
What the article actually says:
-could cost as low as $149
-Up to 1 GHz CPU
Which of course says absolutely nothing at all.
Why?...think about this: currently, many, if not most, computer and video games developers create games for one platform with the intention of later porting it to other platforms. Naturally, the game developer wants their game available on the greatest number of different platforms to increase market audience reached over-all by their game. A good example of this "intended" development especially comes with the sports games. A beautiful example is the current Tomb Raider series: after Tomb Raider I, all the Tomb Raiders were planned with both the PC and console in mind.
Now how does this matter with the X-Box? Well, as previously mentioned, most developers develop first for one platform, release on that platform, wait for a period of saturation on that platform while they port to another, then release on their secondary platform. This porting costs money and time. Now what if, they only had to write the game once to reach both the console and PC markets? Would they choose to do that and save the money?...of course!
So here's where the X-Box's potential as a real market changer lies: if MS's "Windows-based OS" supports DirectX as an API to create games for the X-Box, a near port-less possibility to creating games for multiple platforms simulatenously now exists that game developers are going to leap at to use...
Now I'm not saying this is by any stretch a good thing...actually, I think it's a dangerous thing...but I can see why the X-Box might succeed...
I know this wasn't the main point of your thread, but there is a lot of misleading in that statement. Yes, the PS2 uses a 300 MHz chip to do massive graphics, but it is a 128 bit chip, not a 32 or even a 64. It also has an 150 MHz "graphics synthesizer". M$ would need a fast 32 bit CPU to keep up, particularly running Windows CE.
For some more information about the PS2 to use for comparison, I suggest IGN's PS2 FAQ. For additional info about the PS2 including other information, try ps2.ign.com.
B. Elgin
B. Elgin
"Read at your own risk; feel free to ignore."
Few people will buy just an X-Box, they will buy several games as well (duh). Add up all the revenue over the life of a games console, subtract the bill of materials over the same period, and MS can make a profit overall. Or take a loss and derail the PSX2 bandwagon. Go stick some figures into Excel ^H^H^H^H^H StarOffice. As I've said before, that's the problem (we) Linux and Open Source games advocates have to address, how to subsidise the hardware.
1) 56K Modem? This has GOT to be a made up stat as any game hardware company (besides SEGA) would be retarded not to include broadband (Cable, DSL, etc.) ability in their console, especially when the average console life span is around 4 years or so (easily taking us into mainstream broadband access timeframe). Forget your "MSN subscription for life" arguments - any new console MUST offer broadband capabilities.
2) X-Box WON'T wipe Sony out... what a joke. That's like saying "Yamaha's making a new motorbike that goes 20mph faster than any other bike - all the other bike companies will go out of business!". Microsoft dominates the PC s/w market because it got in early and Apple stumbled big time. The game industry is much more mature and companies like Sony, Nintendo and Sega are FAR more entrenched in terms of market share. MS will eat a big portion of that pie perhaps, but not enough to put Sony out of the game business.
3) MS would again be retarded to attempt to offer multiple models of the X-Box at different price points (i.e. base model for $149, deluxe model for $250, etc.). This is misinformed speculation as releasing multiple models fractures your install base, meaning developers can't count on a common platform spec (the same problem that doomed the SEGA 32X and that currently plaques PC land).
www.AdrianCrook.com
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I am just guessing but I think steak doesnt think the X-Box is viable...
A nice, well written, constructive criticism would probably be better, but hey what the hell...
--- Can i borrow your Clue-Stick(tm)? I need to go beat a few people with it...
..because MS's Games operation think it sucks and actually fought *NOT* to have WinCE on it. Also, because "WinCE" is fast becoming a dirty word
among Dreamcast developers.
Hmm. It might actually have a decent operating system, and be from MS. Interesting in itself.
(Posting anon for a reason).
$149 hmmm. Taking a look at that last article about the 1.5Ghz Intel chips priced around a small yugo! Well, Microsoft must be shooting to release these X-Boxes when the Intel price drops to 45$. Using the current trends, with 300MHz Celerons still at 75$ The X-Box should be out sometime in 2004. I'm not waiting that long.
Joseph Elwell.
Here's a copy of a post I made on this same story that appeared on the Shugashack:
;) [and in light of that price, the X-Box launching at $150 is made that much less likely]
(disclaimer: I am very biased here, being a PSX owner and long-time MS hater)
OK, now that we know(?) something concrete about the X-Box,let's compare it to its obvious competitor, the PS2:
- CPU: the X-Box may get "up to 1GHz" cpu, but its quite likely that the PS2's 300MHz chip will beat it out. We already know that the X-Box will be x86-based, which means we have an idea of how that "up to 1GHz" can perform. As various developers who already have development systems have pointed out, the strength of the "Emotion Engine" (blah, lame name) is its vector units. For comparison, 2 of the Athlon's FP units are also vector units,
responsible for executing MMX and 3DNow instructions. The Emotion Engine has 10(!) *dedicated* vector units. Also, x86 cpus are 32bit, the EE is 128bit.
- RAM: At first, it looks like the X-Box wins here, with 64MB over the PS2's 32MB. But it doesn't say what type is in the X-Box. We know that the PS2's 32MB is Rambus (whether that's good or not is open to debate)... More on the RAM in the OS section...
- OS: "Windows Derived OS"? That's reason enough to stay as far away from this thing as possible. And as at least one other poster has noted, how much of that 64MB is this OS going to take up? Judging from what Epic has said about porting Unreal to the PS2, writing PS2 software is like
using Glide: you're basically "coding to the metal". Programming for Windows and DirectX on the other hand, involves many layers of abstraction
and results in many cycles being wasted in intermediary software.
- modem: same as PS2
- other I/O: no info on the X-Box, but the PS2 will have IEEE1394, USB, and PCMCIA, and MS had better match that
- DVD: same as PS2
- hard drive: OK, this is the big deal. Some ppl may look at this and say, "hey! the PS2 doesn't have an HDD at all! this r00lz!" Wrong. The PS2 will get by with 8MB memory cards, very similar to what the PSX has now. Sure it's not 4GB, but it costs a hell of a lot less too. But more important than the fact that it shouldn't need an HD is what having one enables. If you follow the link and read the blurb, it says "it also has a 4GB hard drive, which will allow you to download patches" OH SHIT. What is arguably THE best characteristic
that consoles have over PC's? Stability. Console games never get patched, because they're shipped on read-only media. This naturally forces developers to make their games bug-free, and it works. With the opportunity given to developers to release crap now and patch it later, like PC devs do, they'll use it. Watch out.
- upgradability: I've got the sinking feeling that the X-Box will be upgradeable. Fanatic PC gamers/console haters don't realize this, but upgradeability is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it allows the platform to evolve, on the other hand it *requires* the platform to evolve. Compare the PC to the PSX. Can a PC from 5+ years ago run Quake 3? No. But is a PSX game of today as far advanced past those of 5 years ago as Quake 3 is? Not really. So the technology level of a console's games stays pretty much constant for its lifespan. The upside here is that you've made your one-time hardware expenditure, and that's it! When I buy a PS2 for $200 (which IS the price it'll launch at, every console in recent memory has launched at that price, and Sony's not dumb enough to break that streak), that $200 will likely be the only money I spend on PS2 hardware for as long as I own the thing (other than memory cards, a 2nd controller, etc). However, if I buy even a $500 PC now, to play current games in a year or two I'll need to shovel more hundreds of dollars into it.
I'm guessing that the X-Box will fall somewhere between these two extremes.
- games: The other obvious advantage the PS2 has is games. One, there are already hundreds of PSX games that will play on it. Two, there are already many developers working on games for it. Three, several developers have contracts with Sony, most
notably SquareSoft, so we know they'll be putting their games out on the PS2. As for the X-Box, who knows?
However, I will not deny the possibility that the X-Box could succeed. Microsoft has produced at least three good products (EDIT.COM, the original Natural KB, the Sidewinder pad), plus a few others that are decent but not stellar (Publisher, various mice). So I'll concede the possibility that the X-Box could mark another good product. We'll only know for sure when the thing actually comes out. Until then, however, I will remain VERY skeptical.
==
Now for some stuff I've thought of since then:
- video: Holy crap, the PS2's advertised triangle and fill rates are insane (although I forget what they are, 75MTriangles/s comes to mind...)
And all that with only 4MB of video ram! 4MB, that according to psx2000.org, is linked to the gfx chip by a 2560-bit bus! Now, even if that's a typo, and is supposed to be 256 bits, it's still twice the width of any current PC video bus (unless you count the G400's dual 128 bit buses).
- CPU: there were a lot of people on the 'shack who concluded that since the X-Box will have a 1GHz cpu, and the PS2 will only have a 300MHz cpu, that the X-Box will be significantly faster. Now, for some perspective on this, compare the GeForce to the Voodoo3. The former has a clock speed of 120MHz, the latter, up to 183MHz. Which is faster? That's right, the GeForce. Architectural superiority will put the PS2 on top.
- price: the fact that this article projected a $149 launch price is indicative of one of two things, either:
1. this report is bogus, entirely rumor, totally worthless. or...
2. Microsoft is going to be selling these things at a loss (or very *slim* margin) in order to put the hurt on Sony.
The reasoning behind this is, as I said above, that $200 is basically THE customary launch price. The SNES, PSX, and Dreamcast all hit the market sporting $199.99. Although EB is pre-ordering PS2's for $239, so it may be that inflation is catching up with us
MoNsTeR
Consider for a second if you will, the fact that Microsoft blames crashes on faulty drivers. Now consider the fact that since consoles are (or atleast are supposed to be) standardized hardware, meaning that all drivers should be release-worthy, in that they only have to be tested in one configuration.
This kills their excuse, but also the reasoning. They're right when they say the majority of faults is in drivers, and while a driver shouldn't necessarily be able to kill everything, hey it happens. Ever have windows crash in safe mode? I haven't. That's what this will run in, a permanent safe mode, because it's all standard overly-tested drivers.
You may not like the products, but MS is far from a stupid company, and they know what they're going up against, and what they have to do to win.
All of this said, I'm sure it will be a nice console, and I'll probably have one, alongside my Dolphin, PS2, and DC (and yet I never play games...I just enjoy wasting the money).
Plus...for people into console dev, such as myself, this will probably be a fun toy to play with.
The only way I can see a 1 Ghz machine coming out next year at that price point is if it requires you to sign-up with a specific Internet provider.
If that is valued currently at $400 for 3 years, then they real cost of the box is $550, which I can believe. Hopefully it will be broadband access at no more than $22/month by that point.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Second, in most modern rendering chipsets the fill rate (the rate at which pixels can be put into polygons) is grossly higher than it needs to be: it is the polygon rate (the time to compute the position of each polygon) that is limited. Therefor, increasing or decreasing the resolution will have almost no effect on the frame rate, as the system will be limited by how many polygons it can cram onscreen, not how many pixels.
Lastly, remember that the X-Box will be running DirectX on Windows CE (Control Everything). The intent is to make it very easy to port from the console to the desktop (as long as the desktop has broken glass for an OS, not rotten fruit, flightless waterfowl, or satanic influences ;^) )
Lastly, for something like this to sell, the BOM (Bill of Materials, the cost of the parts to make it) would have to be about $75 for it to sell at $150 (the rest is eaten up with manufacturing cost, NRE (non-recurring engineering costs), shipping, stocking, returns (my box just gives me this funky blue screen, I want a new one) etc.) This is even if the whole thing sells at a loss. MS wants to dominate the game market: they sell this as a loss-leader, they get all the hot games made for DirectX, they get all the game programmers indoctrinated into The MicroSoft Way Of Doing Things and they kill all competition. They almost managed this without a game console: look at how many games are DirectX rather than OpenGL. However, today, game companies are starting to realise that if they want to make Mac ports (or Linux/BSD ports, or console ports) they had best program for OpenGL. Case in point: Aliens Vs. Predator is being ported to OpenGL so that they can make a Mac version. Hopefully, the folks at Activision are learning a lesson from this and will do all future games in OpenGL.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Did you ever hear about the PSX needing upgrades and service packs? No, because the idea is to release the platform spotless from the start. The 4 GB hard drive is worth nothing; it's not a feature, it's a way to circumvent future bugs M$ know they're gonna get. Who wants to connect to the Internet and download service packs for your platform? That's gonna hurt the X-Box's reputation immensely.
Incidentally, did anyone notice how M$ and Nintendo always explain their performance by comparing it to the PS2? 'We'll be faster than the PS2'. Hmm. It's just funny how the PS2 is already a standard, a full month before its Japanese release.
Finally, if they need a 1 GHz processor to work this thing, then they're doing something wrong. The PS2 achieves 25M pps with only a dedicated 266 processor. A 1 GHz processor sounds like infinitely more than what's needed to power a cutting-edge gaming platform at this time.
This is gonna bomb. M$ is not ready for this.
I'd hardly think of a harddrive as an asset to a gaming console. What's it good for? An internet cache? I've got dsl, and I load database driven sites. New games? Let 'em stay on the server. When I connect to the server, I'm playing version 1.2.7 automatically without having to patch it.
Playstion games look better now than five years ago when the PS first came out. Why? Because the programmers got better. Why? Because they weren't wasting time trying to integrate COM 2.0, or Direct X 12a, or whatever MS trys to sove down developers throuts. PS programmers just focus on the task at hand.
So a winders based platform means Joey down the street can develop his own games. You think Joey won't need to replace DLL's? That's one of the reasons why winders crashes. And yup, harddrives will help that problem manifest.
Next, let's talk about the price. If(the nintendo site didn't state any sources for their info, mind you) it really does come out in 2001 with a 1GHZ cpu, I'd think it'd cost WAY more than $150 with those specs.
If there was a 1ghz cpu to be had for under $400, that'd kill the PC industry all together. Think about it. Way more power than you need, in a $150 box? Where's the space to squeeze in a $40(or whatever...) winders licence? They'd be killing themselves!
Lastly, comparing a console to computer hardware is the old apples/oranges argument. PC gamers buy athlon 800's and GeForces to be able to run 3d games with 5000-10000 on-screen polygons at 1280x1024x32bit color. NTSC (that's those TV thingies) are more like 378x200 something. If you do the math, it take rediculously less power to drive the same number of polygons around at that resolution. The propossed x-boxen would have idle CPU cycles, which means it was over engineered, which means it costs too much to build regaurdless of the price. : )
So maybe MS is thinking about a PC replacement? That kind of power would run winders NT pretty well, but it seems a little light for winders2k. That much hardware could drive a real monitor just fine. It'd also run Linux pretty well, and I'd guess it will about 4 months if it ever comes out, which it won't.
The whole thing is just so rediculous...
-=nft1999=-
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -Gandhi
This is not a flame or some stupid AC, but a valid warning. Anyone who follows Nintendo news will relieze that Nintendo Next is the "tabloids" of videogame reporting. They've mislead SOOOO many people with their bogus stories. I HIGHLY doubt anything they said in the article is true, or if it is, they sure as hell just heard it from rumors or unconfirmed reports. I'd take this article with a HUGE grain of salt. Story after story they "broke" has proven to be just based off of rumors or have been very misleading. I can't believe Slashdot would even post anything from somewhere as unreliable as NN.
So to sum it up, I wouldn't trust anything you read in the article, especially since none of the major gaming sites have had anything new on the X-Box at all.