Slashdot Mirror
LindowsOS.com Email Lists Collected For MS Suit
Over at the LindowsOS website is a message from company chief Michael Robertson, who advises readers that, in the course of discovery for the ongoing lawsuit instigated by Microsoft against Lindows.com, the company was "compelled to disclose your email address to Microsoft." The email addresses aren't just those who have submitted product names with a connection to "Windows", but rather "everyone who had
submitted their address asking to be signed up for the Lindows.com mailing
list since we turned on the website," according to email from Robertson. He adds: "The information which Microsoft
received in the list was name, email address and physical address. It was
not just people that posted to our forum, but basically every address for
every person that we had collected." (Note: If you'd like to contribute to the list of "Windows" products, it would be helpful to include more than just a product name photocopy -- e.g. a company name, URL, or photocopied manual.).Update by HeUnique: And here is Michael Robertson comment.
This isn't fair.
:(
I didn't submit my e-mail address to microsoft, I guess the lindows people didn't really have a choice however, as much as I'd like to blame them
Now we'll be subjected to extra windows spam from MS.
In some states, it is LEGAL to shoot anyone who steps on your property uninvited.
Next thing you know Joe_potential_Lindows_User
will be "sending" a letter to congress praising M$'s "Right to Innovate", along with his dead cat, fish, and web server.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
to switch to linux,,
I know I just did
NOTE FOR WA RESIDENTS: Requests for information are not offered to residents of the state of Washington.
Why is that?
What possible use could that email list be in a trademark case? Additionally, how can MS force them to hand over the addresses and even some of the messages when the Lindows privacy promise explicitly said they would do no such thing? (Yes I am aware the promise wasn't written for this purpose, just seems like it should have an effect.)
Does anyody else find it odd that the news brief doesn't say why they disclosed this information? Could it be something they did? Or am I just paranoid? Or am I stoned?
This "hunting down windows-named software" might not help, I'm afraid. Microsoft's lawyers are going to say that since Lindows is an OS, it can be confusing. Which it is, considering how many variations people have made on Windoze, blows, etc.
This
ok, now they have my name. W O W they had it before
MS employee: "Um, Sir Gates, we have the list of email addresses of Lindows users...They all have dubious hotmail accounts."
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I guess the big question is "Now what are Microsoft going to do with them?" - send the software piracy gestapo around to your house? or just bombard you with spam about why windows has a lower overall TCO and crap like that? Perhaps M$ could be sued under spam laws if they send unsollicited e-mail to you? Perhaps I'm just a crackpot? who knows.
This is the guy who completely sold out MP3.com and made it a hellhole of commercialism and a place where now, any artist who ever posted their mp3s on the site, has no way at all to remove them from their database. They have officially become 'property' of MP3.com, which is basically a subsidiary of Universal at this point.
In any case, he has a pretty bad track record when it comes to lawsuits. Expect to start getting fabulous offers (that you can't afford to refuse!) sent to your physical mailing address 'compelling' you to upgrade to future new subscription-based versions of Lindows XP. Ha.
JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP IRRIGATE
Disgusting. Simply disgusting.
This is almost as bad as when MS rewarded people who reported PCs sold without OSes with games. But then again, watch MS offer these people Windows XP ("the most reliable Windows ever") at a 50% discount...
Give the usual MicroSquish business ethics, you will be signed up for "product information and news" for everything from X-10 to porn. Good luck, your mail box will soon look like my AOL account. I wonder if M$ have anything to do with that as well, there can'nt be that many dumb asses who buy a penis enarger sales kit. It would not be beyond the company that pays to have dead people write congressmen. Such is the stuff of software ownership and "aggesive" marketing.
As an internal email from M$ once told, there were two conditions for a new NT product that interfaced with Unix, that it make money for M$ and that it kill Unix. Needless to say, that project useful project did not happen.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I could use my hotmail accout i check every 2 months and just collects spam :)
:)
and if it gets more spam from microsoft.com sellin XP i'll know y!
Seriously though... is this really neccesary? can i get all the email addresses of people subscribing to a white sepremacy, or other such hate group when involved in a lawsuit(civil, not necessarily criminal case)...
... that, and does EVERYONE subscribing to the list oppose microsoft? I'll bet there's a few ms execs on the list
... do they just wanna find out who hate them? watchout slashdot!!! they'll make you turn over all our user account info soon!!!!
For a company that wanted to "Settle this outside of the courts" that sure is strange behavior. I would think in light of recent events Billie G would like to avoid the courtrooms. But then again I didn't just add the DOJ to my legal department either.
quite sick indeed... why excactly were they forced to turn over these documents?
mix_master_mike
vafrous
You see there are these people we call judges, and they can order you to do certain things...If you don't do these things you can be found guilty of contempt of court and be sent to jail. Privacy policy or not.
I'll hazard a guess and say that they're just doing this to scare people into not participating in the product-name-hunt that's going on. Furthermore, I'm sure that it's working. But think for a second: What harm could you possibly come to if you continue helping?
Your privacy is no longer protected by a web site statement. Beware!
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Dear Lindows.com Friend,
As a Lindows.com Friend, we at Microsoft hold you responsible for encroaching on the Microsoft brand with the naming of the Lindows product. Microsoft is shocked and appalled at the countless number of people that each made the executive level decision of approving this product name, and plan on holding every one of you responsible. In addition, you will be added to all of the Microsoft, MSN, and MSDN mailing lists to further convince you of the uniqueness of the Microsoft brand. We also might forward all of the blocked SPAM at Hotmail.com to you, since we now have your email addresses.
Sincerely,
*******, Head of Corporate Branding
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
...and starts more MS bashing, refresh yourself on the actual post first. Granted, the article brief makes you inclined to think that this post is another chance to bash Microsoft, but something good has come out of it nevertheless.
The "Michael's Minutes" article which is linked to has a primairy purpose of NOT bashing Microsoft or jumping to conclusions about the "seizing" of the emails, but instead ask everyone out there in the Lindows.com community to help them in their case. They've developed a strategy to aid their case by trying to find AS MANY products out there on the market that have some kind of "Windows"-derrived name. Here's the actual important text:
Here's how you can help. We are composing a list of the many hundreds of products named "Windows Something" or "Something Windows" or even variations on the word windows, which are not from Microsoft. We know there are many, many products that fit this characterization and we could use your assistance to help us create this list. We are looking for hardware products, software products, products for any operating system and even operating systems themselves.
You can help us generate this list at www.lindows.com/list in three different ways:
1. By submitting titles which can be added to our
list by filling out this simple form www.lindows.com/listform
2. Send in printed materials which use the term "window(s)" generically such as software boxes or complete manuals to our offices, the older the better:
Lindows.com, Inc.
Attn: Legal Info
4350 La Jolla Village Drive Suite 450
San Diego, CA 92122
I say go for it. The goal is to catch Microsoft's real motivation for pursuing this lawsuit against Lindows: targeting competition rather than enforcing their trademark. So, rather than bash Microsoft here, take some time and actually help out the fight against them!
Knowing that my name and address (YES, I am one of them) can be used by M$ marketing droids to fill up my snail mailbox and email one with Windows ads just pisses me off BIG TIME! Why did Lindows complies with this request? This is breaking the privacy policies. I hate this. Can't they do anything against the Beast? Don't tell me that MS had the right to do that. I can't believe it.
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
No matter how reviled M$ is... the term Lindows DOES infringe on the name Windows...
Unless there's prior permission given by the company, it's illegal...
I mean, after all, if a company came along calling itself Lisney, and had a character named Lickey Louse, there would definitely be concern. Perhaps we must think in a broader, more even-handed perspective in order to fully grasp the basic facts of the case.
"Here's how you can help. We are composing a list of the many hundreds of products named "Windows Something" or "Something Windows" or even variations on the word windows, which are not from Microsoft. We know there are many, many products that fit this characterization and we could use your assistance to help us create this list. We are looking for hardware products, software products, products for any operating system and even operating systems themselves"
Hardware, well only thing I can think of is that pane of glass in my wall... umm, unless he's talking about boxes of hardware that say "Designed for Microsoft Windows."
Software. Wow. Hmm... how about anything named "XXXXX for Windows".
My favorite part is the "even operating systems themselves." That's funny. Cause the only OS that I know of that has 'Windows' in its name is...well... Windows!
This guy hasn't a leg to stand on. I think he likes getting himself into trouble and then making up bullshit excuses for why his interpretation of the law is right. I'm certainly not for the RIAA (H.R. can lick my nards), but it's kind of like him explaining why the MP3s on my.mp3.com were..uh.. 'legal.' By his interpretation anyway.
Face it, this guy knows he did wrong. Just think what would have happened if Microsoft named their Internet browser Metscape Mavigator.... But it begins with M (for Microsoft)! It's different!
Oh, and for the curious, here is their privacy policy:
"Contact Information: Some areas of the Site request or require contact and other information. During the registration process, we collect information such as your name, mailing address, and e-mail address. Your contact information may be used to get in touch with you when necessary with respect to transactions conducted through the Site or for other internal purposes. We do not share your contact information with any third party without your consent, except to a court or governmental agency if permitted by law, as authorized by a court of competent jurisdiction or to the limited extent described below under "Certain Third Party Transactions". "
Looks like that just flew out the door... er, window.
To:
Subject: Hi there!
Dear Dark Cobra,
Hello there! This is an automated e-mail from Bill Gates. Well, actually his secretary, but you get the picture.
We were recently informed of your interest in LindowsOS. Unfortunantly, we cannot allow them to illegally use our stuff or whatever. We do, however, offer you an alternative.
Windows XP! It's fun, easy, and only crashes once in a while! Although we currently offer no support for "Linus" programs, we do include minesweeper and solitaire.
Oh, and a little reminder! We ask of your help and support in our court battles. Please write to your nearest congressman and fight for our right to continue to own your PC.
Sincerly ( Love, ??? I'm new at this!)
Amand--
er, Bill Gates
If MS strongarmed Lindows into giving them this info will the courts not want information as well:
*What value to the case does this have?
*Why do you need these names?
Would it also not be contemptuous of MS to then use these names for targeted advertising (I am asking I don't know)
Furthermore we who are on the list are DETRIMENTAL to MS claims of trademark dilution (ie we didn't accidentally get ANY kind of Linux)
I can see it in court
"Can you Joe Slacker tell the difference between Windows and Lindows"
"Yes your' honor I most definitely can"
"Proceed"
"I think MS even has a patent on that blue screen so that HAS to be Windows"
Does anyone know if the name X Windows predates Microsoft Windows?
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
One normally doesn't ask for a compeditor's customer list in an examination for discovery, and if one does, one expects it to be given to the court under seal, not handed over to a compeditor...
davecb@spamcop.net
Microsoft: Who do we want to sue today?
After having read the notice, I find myself wondering whether this is really something to worry about. The notice itself is very vague.. only stating that they were forced to give the list to Microsoft, and that Microsoft has promised not to abuse it.
With so few facts, it seems kind of hard to determine whether this is serious or not. Whilst Microsoft are notorious for underhanded tactics, I seriously doubt that they'd use the list of emails to start sending out Windows SPAM or, as someone suggested, sending out their "gestapo-squads" to raid people's premises.
Without more facts there seems to be very little that can be commented on, beyond deploring both Microsoft for demanding it, and Lindows for giving it to them.
One also expects a company that has been found guilty (of, let's say a monopoly, for agument's sake) to be punished in some way... go figure.
(yeah, yeah - flamebait - I know)
sic transit gloria mundi
...is that Microsoft has a very high chance of winning this case.
For example, take a look at the list of other product names that have "Windows" or something similar in them. All of these products run on Windows. They aren't a competitor to Microsoft's core operating system business; rather, they enhance that market by providing valuable third-party add-ons to Windows.
Lindows, on the other hand, is obviously capitalizing on the popularity of Windows. To make matters worse, Lindows has a real problem becuase the name is phonetically so similar to Microsoft's product. Try to say "Lindows" out loud in a sentence. In fact, try saying the following out loud to someone else and see what they think you said:
"Lindows is an operating system that runs on your personal computer."
In fact, this is the worst possible outcome for Microsoft, because they HAVE to sue to protect their trademark. Suing a) creates negative publicity for Microsoft by geeks who think Microsoft is just trying to lay the smack down on a smaller competitor; and b) creates a lot of publicity of something that may be a threat to Microsoft's core business.
I would hazard a guess that this lawsuit will generate more publicity and hype for the-soon-to-be-former-"Lindows" than the product would have on its own. Had it not been named so similarly to Windows, I doubt that many people outside of the geek community would have even paid attention to it. As it is, even though it costs $99 per user and can't run everything as well as the real Windows, it still puts egg on Microsoft's face.
It must really stink for Microsoft to have to give tons of free publicity to a direct competitor. I'd look for Microsoft to push for a quiet settlement and get the "Lindows" pill swallowed as quickly as possible.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
Some of the things windows has done, bundling Internet Explorer with windows, those "supposed" anti-Linux e-mail's, stealing apple's ideas for an operating system, I can look at those and say, well, maybe that can be construed as Microsoft trying to be competitive. Not that I agree with any of those things. This on the other hand really crosses the line. What need has microsoft of our e-mail addresses, and furthermore why was Lindows so quick to give them up? I probably would have been quick on Lindows side, being that how can you confuse Lindows and WindowsXP, but they just threw there hands in the air and said, here take all these e-mail addresses and we'll change our name. Any other demands?
From Lindows.com
:)
Lindows.com may disclose personal information to third parties we engage to provide services that involve data processing on our behalf. Also, if some or all of the assets of Lindows.com are sold to a third party, such third party will be entitled to use the personal information disclosed by users of this Web Site, but only in accordance with the terms of this Privacy Statement.
Now, someone explain. Does Microsoft help them with data processing? No. Have any assets of Lindows.com been sold to a third party? No. Therefore, they're in breach of their Privacy Policy, which is clearly stated here.
They do cover themselves by saying this: "Lindows.com reserves the right to change this policy at any time by posting a new privacy policy at this location." However, there's been no change to their privacy policy. Somebody made a boo-boo, it seems, because no amount of forcing should compel Lindows.com to break their own privacy contract with their customer/supporter.
Actually, reading it again, there's one place where the website COULD share your information: "We do not share your contact information with any third party without your consent, except to a court or governmental agency."
Then again, the Microsoft branch of our government probably didn't authorize this anyhow.
It's not like no one ever heard of X-Windows.
It's not like anyone ever looked out of a hole in a fucking wall that had glass in it, either.
Isn't the purpose of the discovery phase to discover relavant information - or at the very least, the appearance of relavance? How does this info help microsoft prepare for the lawsuit? If it IS irrelavant, isn't there some procedure for challenging it?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
I notice that they still have a link to joining the mailing list? Is that stupid or is that stupid?
Anyone notice how the website doesn't say that the email addresses were given to Microsoft by order of the court? It seems they just gave them to Microsoft after being put under some pressure or something. I can't think of a single reason why people on a mailing list along with their personal details would be relevant in a lawsuit over trademark issues. It seems to me that there's something very dodgy going on here.
At first I wanted to immediately go to lindows.com and sign up so that Microsoft would see how many people were interested in an alternative to their product. However, after thinking about it for a minute, perhaps they are going to argue that all the people signed up at the lindows.com site actually wanted to sign up at windows.com. They could then claim lost revenue and "strengthen" their case.
Far-fetched you say? Didn't AOL win an injunction against GAIM for something similar?
Linux User #296508 Get Counted!
Actually, it's not X Windows, but the X Window System. And actually, Microsoft Windows predates it -- Windows was released in 1983, and the X Window System's first commercial release was in 1986.
I'd guess that most product names that could help Lindows have already been submitted. Really, the name "Lindows" is pretty much doomed at this point.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
Most of the products submitted are windows products, how about xwindows, wxwindows (too late I submitted those) There must be others that are some variation of windows that are not MS Windows software of some sort.
Strictly speaking, it's "X Window System" or something like that, and it definitely predates Microsoft Windows by many years.
But you forget about the special place for Microsoft under the law. It can use "Window" without infringing on "X Window System," it can even use "X" (for X-box) without infringing on "X Window System" or causing the slightest amount of confusion about what "X programming" is.
Meanwhile, it's nothing but piracy if any other company uses "Micro-", "-soft" or more than three consecutive letters out of "Windows."
We might think this shows the emotional maturity of a 2-year-old, but we're not billionaires.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Think about this. The second they use this information to communicate product related spam, either direct advertisements or Windows related propoganda, they violate the purpose of collecting the information.
Any self-respecting judge or attorney would not allow the subpoena of information in a trademark dispute case to be turned into undeserved financial gain. This doesn't make sense. If Microsoft uses the information improperly, obviously they will be reprimanded for it.
However, this doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be taken by Lindows counsel to make sure the lists are not established as part of the public record, in which case they would be free domain. Unfortunately, this is another issue altogether.
Why didn't Lindows send out a email to all people on the mailing list saying that we had 24 hours to remove ourselves from the Lindows mailing list, otherwise it will be turned over to Microsoft.
:-(
That would have been nice, but unfortunately, I don't think it would have been very practical
In this case, I'd love to see the defense attorney tell the judge:
Why don't the Lindows people subpoena MicroSoft's customer list? I'm sure they could find out a lot of potentially useful information from MS customers. Er, useful in the court case, I mean.
Given MS's record with getting the courts to like them, it doesn't sound too implausible that the court would order them to comply (or drop the suit).
It's true that MicroSoft has a good case here, but that doesn't mean they won't mess it up. They seem not to have realized that, while justice is theoretically blind, it can still you giving it the finger.
I think Mr. Robertson should send an email to everyone whose information is being sent to Microsoft, warning them of the disclosure.
While he's at it, he should also provide a link to a poll on his website, asking whether any of those people had been initially confused when researching the new OS.
I think the results would be staggeringly positive, and I suspect they would make an impression on the judge.
(Better include a unique code with each email; wouldn't want Microsoft to stack the deck yet again...)
I think everyone's missing the point.
As far as I am concerned, Lindows voluntarily handed over the marketing information(e-mail, physical address, etc.) since I have not heard of a judge ordering Lindows to handover the information or anything like that.
Considering Michael Robertson, former founder and CEO of MP3.com, is a total sellout, it isn't unlikely that he sold out on Lindows too.
I seriously do not see why people are so sympathetic to Robertson. Lindows is definetely a closed-source program and the claim that it can run both Win32 and Linux programs has not been confirmed. Furthermore, if you want to be "Lindows Insider" and want a "sneak preview", you have to pay $99/year. Did someone say "subscription-based software"?
knowing how michael robertson operates it would not surprise me if this was their intention from the beginning.
after all, look what happened to napster once the riaa sued - tons of press, more users, more files available on the network.
its a proven methodology!
can you explain 2 things:
1) What relevance would this email list have with MS's case?
2) If X-Windows does not violate MS's trademark, explain how the hell Lindows can?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Does anyone else find it funny that Robertson has that same picture plastered all over the lindows website and the e-mail in question? He is certainly better looking than BillG but does he need to have his picture plastered everywhere? It reminds me of those cheesy personal injury billboards you see everywhere with the lawyer' s ugly mug plastered on it.
Statistics lie, and you just told some whoopers.
1) That site you linked to clearly states that MS Windows was not released until late November, 1985, two years after the announcement. It may have been announced in 1983, but every Windows release has come out years late. Windows 95 was not originally called '95, and it barely made it. Same with Windows 2000.
2) MS Windows 1.0 followed the Microsoft tradition established by MS DOS 1.0. It was unusable crap that satisfied nobody but the lawyers. Did Microsoft release software in 1985? Sure. It was totally unusable on any real system, but it satisfied the terms of the contract and gave Microsoft some breathing room to try again.
And just like DOS, Windows did not become a viable package until the 3.x days.
(IIRC, Office followed the same pattern. Microsoft is nothing if not consistent.)
3) The first commercial release of X might have been in 1986, but that's completely irrelevant since X was developed in the academic world. The X Window System was out for years by this point.
4) For the same reason, X was a viable package by the time it was commercially released.
Put it all together, and you have the situation reported by many people here - the X Window System predates MS Windows by about a decade, and is roughly contemporary with the Lisa and Mac. Microsoft may have announced its windowing system at about the same time, but in practice *everyone* used their own or third-party graphics routines until Windows 3.1 came out... and suddenly Microsoft applications couldn't run on DR-DOS, etc.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Most people are making the argument of how similar "Lindows" is to "Windows", but as far as I can see, the product is called "LindowsOS". How one can construe "LindowsOS" to being similar to "Windows", "Microsoft WindowsXP Professional", etc.. is laughable.
I haven't rebooted my WinXP box in 28 days. Put that in your bowl and smoke it.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the X Window System came out of the academic world, so the first COMMERCIAL release is irrelevant. What matters is when other academic users started to use that system, and it was well before 1986.
As for Windows 1.0... I was working as a professional graphics programmer when Windows 1.0 came out. It was unusable crap. Windows 2.0 was unusable crap. Everyone used their own libraries or third-party packages until the release of 3.x.
Pre-Motif X was also a pain to use, but it could be used if you had the display hardware. (VT100s tend to be hard on any GUI.)
BTW, I am not the person who claimed that MS Windows was released in 1983, and "proved" it with a link that clearly stated it was "announced" in 1983, but not released until late 1985. You're awful fast to label other people "liars" and "zealots"
Go back into your Redmond cubicle and tell Bill that you've been caught astroturfing.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Privacy statements are not intended to protect your privacy. They are often marketing ploys specifically engineered to gain your trust so the company can exploit it.
Think about it -- would you really know if the Web site was not honoring its privacy statement? Are there any laws forcing the site to follow its stated policy? If so, are those laws enforcible?
In some cases (perhaps pertaining to certain bank or medical information) there are laws protecting you, but never assume you're protected simply because a "privacy statement" says you are.
Microsoft can use the same list Lindows is compiling to go back and harass or sue the companies/authors of the programs now that it's a hot-button issue... because they can't be inconsistent in the eyes of the court. And it looks like a couple items on the list are open source projects. They'll be real easy pickin's for Microsoft lawyers.
Forget the lawsuit entirely. It's simply not relevant to the important issue. Microsoft has no legal reason whatsoever to obtain the customer email addresses. Period.
If Sears had a dispute with WalMart, they couldn't demand WalMart's customer list. These technophobic neanderthal judges need to be taught this.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Seriously.
If I was Osama... (and i'm not), I'd be more worried about the SPA/MS checking for my licensed copies of Flight Sim 2002 w/collector Taliban cap then I would be about the US.
It is not X-Windows, It is either reffered to as just X, or The X Windowing System or The X Window System. X Window System is the only term registered as a trademark by The OpenGroup/The X Consortium. The system is also sometimes rreffered to as its major version, that is X11 or major version and revision, that is X11R6.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Can anyone explain any possible legal implications of a Washington State resident being able to input information?
I'm not sure it was a customer list per se; "Michael's minute" says:
"Also, we feel obligated to disclose to you that we were compelled to disclose your email address to Microsoft during the discovery process as well as the content of many of your messages sent to us. We were not happy about doing this, but we had little choice. We have received assurances from Microsoft that they will not use or disclose your address for any purpose beyond this case."
It's not unusual for a company's internal emails to become part of a court case like this, and it is notunsusual for people to send customer mail back and forth internally (possibly also the customer list). The court would not allow the Lindows people to "edit" these mails for content, even if the content "violates privacy policy."
Of course IANAL, and this is only as I understand how these things go, but that's what it looks like to me.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Often being involved with commercial software makes users the target of aggressive behavior.
This is why Open Source software seems so good.
Bush's education improvements were
Judge: "And why do you want those names, addresses and email addresses?"
MS: "You see, we are sure, that alot of those people are possible terrorists. If they aren't, why would they be using a hacker operating system?"
Judge: "You have a point there. Where do I sign?"
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
-Legion
So does this mean that Apple can sue Windows for stealing everything from them?!
January 14, 2002
I'm not sure if this helps, but from my understanding USP#3534338 basically patents the idea of multiple screens on one computer system user interface (basically the precursor to 3270) and thus multiple programs running on the same computer are accessible via different interfaces. Secondly, USP#4555775 basically patents the idea of multiple graphical virtual screens (called "windows") to represent the multiple physical screens. And of course we all know that neither MS nor Apple created the idea of a window based GUI. USP#4939507 (issued to Xerox for Virtual and emulated objects for use in the user interface of a display screen of a display processor) even refers to the screen interfaces as "windows". And thus Lindows is simply using common industry terminology to describe what it does "Linux-Windows" - running multiple applications through a graphical user interface that displays multiple bitmapped windows running on a Linux OS.
Now, I am aware that this is a trademark issue and not a patent issue; however, trademark law does not allow me to create a creamy sandwich spread and call it "Butter" and then sue over "Butter Buds", "Land O'Lakes Butter", "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter", etc for trademark infringement and declaring their names "confusingly similar". This is the exact reason that Kraft Foods names their delightfully tasty fruit flavored gelatin Jell-O because gelatin is the common word for the product and the marketing and legal staff at Kraft knew calling it Kraft Gelatin would be a bad idea..
The term windows is about as common as calling dirt "dirt". Hence Microsoft's choice of the word Windows for their OS is just their own short sightedness. Unfortunately, 800 pound gorillas aren't known for their intelligence just for their jumping up and down and banging their chest.
I believe thats coz you've either had it switched off or you haven't played any games...
Burma?
Lets show M$ what the /. effect really is, submit till the servers burn, no list if they have an office fire.
FSCK OFF M$
Truth-in-advertising types of laws, implied contracts, ...
If so, are those laws enforcible?
If you have deep-enough pockets, then there's a good chance they're enforcable. Otherwise they can run roughshod over you, and there's nothing you can (afford to) do about it.
Edward Burr
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
There is a SW company in Charlottesville, Virginia, called Macrosoft Systems. It's been around at least 4 years (maybe more), and I can't believe Gates hasn't gone down there to give them the ol' hook and ladder.
And what games do you play in linux that make windows look unstable? Loki's ports are not any more stable than their windows counterparts.. the only difference I see is if one of them locks up you just hit ctr alt backspace and then type startx.. but then again who the hell plays games on linux anyway?
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
What an effective way for Microsoft to discourage participation in Open Source projects: find legal ways to insure that if you ever breathed anything online about Open Source your personal data is forfeit to them.
Sounds like a good time to adopt a handle and start making all my contributions anonymously.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
modify the information you submit slightly on every site. for instance:
site1.com
name: Foo Bar
address: 1 blah st. NE
site2.com
name: F00 bar
address: 1 Blah Street NorthEast
record it all Exactly as you submit it. Watch your mail. I've caught dozens of sites this way.
DB hacking for patient...
I'm surprised someone else hasn't submitted this yet. Do any of you remember a spoof program named "Microshaft Winblows"? It was released back in January 1998 by Parroty Interactive (who, it looks like, has been out business for quite some time). They also released a program called Pyst (as you've probably guesed, it was a Myst spoof).
/ pc/jan98/winblows.html . Check out how close the artwork is to the MS stuff (which makes sense since it was intended to be a parody)
As far as I can tell "Microshaft Winblows" is the closest name to "Microsoft Windows" ever used for a non-MS piece of software. You can find an old review for the app here: http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews
-GameMaster
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
As a former employee of a corporate law firm (I am not a lawyer), I have found it greatly distressing the fact that Big Business has determined that litigation is now a formalized method of seizing and controlling market share.
The age-old business principals dictate that if a cost of a service will earn back cost of the service in long-term revenue, then it is wise to invest in this strategy.
Retaining legal counsel, or lawsuits against startups that are praying to make it to the stage of IPO are now effective means of controlling the market. Furthermore, they know they can bleed them dry by cutting into R&D budget by paying for legal fees. Its far more effective, and one would not expect an illegal attempt to monopolize a free market through legal maneuverings. Sad really.
The thoughts that it will be cheaper for the business will come at the cost of the society. Legal fees for Carter Phillips (Microsoft's legal counsel) were $600 an hour (according to Business Weeks October 9 2000 issue). I'm not saying that lawyers such as these shouldn't exist, but using them to monopolize a market is wrong. How can any startup compete with that, or even with the lawyers that bill up to 1500 an hour?
The other issue within the cost part is the detriment on society.. greater taxes due to judges, court systems, loggings, dockets, first hearings, second hearings.. blah blah blah blah blah don't even matter until the third appeal, because everyone wants to go to the Supreme Court no matter the outcome. At this point the original issue may have already been long gone (i.e. Microsoft v Netscape which as you all knew took so long that Netscape was gobbled up by AOL, and then AOL was gobbled up by Time Warner). If legal proceedings take this long, then I ask you, what is the purpose?
The only principals I can think of are two things Market Share through bullying tactics, and personal gain through stock portfolios. Doesn't it make you sick?
~~~~~~
Victory is gained, not in knowing your opponents next move, but in preempting them.
What do you do about the sites that require your credit card info (or similar information you can't alter). If the name or address you provide don't match what the credit card company has on file, they might not authorize the transaction.
Actually, MS could never make use of these mailing lists.
Inclusion of an email address in a plethora of such addresses is s security mechanism known as chaffing (see Rivest et al).
Any attempt to extract an individual email address from such a welter runs afoul o0f the DMCA and would land Bill Gates in the penitentiary.
I change the info almost the same way
site1.com
name: Foo site1
address: 1 blah st. NE
site2.com
name: F00 site2
address: 1 Blah Street NorthEast
Easy to catch when your email starts.
Hi Mr site1,
Have you tried our herbal viagra...
Ask Slashdot - google for stupid people.
I think Robertson is as bad as Gates. As a musician, looking at the way mp3.scum has treated the independent music community I knew from the day I first heard of Lindows that it would follow Robertson's pattern - irritating businesses that are too big for him to fight and then screwing the people who are supposed to be on his side (in this case by being 'forced' to hand over e-mail addresses, knowing Robertson's past behaviour I consider this unlikely in the extreme - the man's probably cutting a deal with Microsoft).
http://www.stealthmunchkin.com - Stealth Munchkin, The World's Greatest Band (URL currently down)
- WinAMP
- WinZip
- WinRAR
- WindowBlinds (well, it's not "Windows"...)
- WinTV
Of course, all of these are basically software packages that run on Windows. (Or hardware...)Then of course there's X-Windowing System...
Unfortunately, none of these are operating systems - they are all software packages and quite distinct from the OS to most people (er, except for WinTV, which is a hardware card). I seriously doubt "Lindows" has a leg to stand on. (I'd have named it something like "WinOnLin" or something else that gets the idea that it's a Windows emulator running on Linux, Lindows is a pretty dumb name... Although I suppose they could argue Lindows = LINux + WinDOWS, but I doubt that'll fly...)
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
A couple of questions: can you really put your hand on your heart and say that the choice of the name "Lindows" isn't a deliberate attempt to ride off Microsoft's name? Let me put that a different way: if Microsoft Windows wasn't called Windows, but something else, say "Microsoft Doors" do you really think that Lindows.com would still have chosen that name? Somehow, I don't think so. But you might disagree.
Secondly, examine the issue of handing over email addresses and so on for a minute. This issue is raised in the context of trying to start a campaign in defense of Lindows.com. Do you think this isn't an attempt to drum up sympathy? Why do you think Microsoft's attorneys (note - this isn't actually Microsoft, a subtle but important distinction) would have specifically asked for this data? Isn't it possible, or even probable, as part of the normal discovery process, that they would just ask for everything on their servers? That is, after all, the normal procedure. The reason it's called "discovery" is because they're asking for everything in an attempt to find what might be there - in other words, they don't know a priori what's on their servers, or in their filing cabinets. Why focus on this one piece of information? It could just as well be that Lindows.com have chosen to focus on the fact that personal details get scooped up in the normal discovery process, and publicise that as part of a campaign to get people on-side, and whip up some anti-Microsoft frenzy. Do you think that Microsoft's attorneys walked in and demanded the contact database, and nothing else? If not, why only mention the one set of data?
Just trying to apply some healthy skepticism here...
If Lindows if phonetically (sp?) similar to Windows, why not just callit Linders or something? That takes care of the phonetics.
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
I dont remember GeOS very well. What i do remember of it is that windows 1.0 looks very much like it. Maybe someone who is a bit older or has a copy could correct me on this. Crackers`n`Soup
This is just too wrong. Bookstores forced to tell who bought what, mailing list subscribers revealed? Seriously... I think it would only be responsible for any company that could piss off the government or a mega-corp to keep their client list in a destructable fashion...
DAMN YOU MR. STEPHENSON for infecting me with your memes.
... that all the 'Windows' in my house, and on my door infringe on their so called 'copyright' too.
Heck. They can't sue over somthing like this. Its like the crook breaking into your home, stealing your TV, and on the way out, steps on a nail, and then sues you because he was hurt on your property.
The chances of that happening are plain ludacris.
1 out of 1,000.
--------------------------
Is this a sig?
--------------------------
According to the law, Microsoft MUST sue in order to avoid what is known as trademark abandonment.
Sure. But they're also entirely welcome to accept that "Lindows" isn't an infringement and let it go.
The law doesn't prohibit them from being reasonable.
What about when "Windows" was patented? Wouln't Microsoft had patented it later than when it was released? I remember it took them a LONG ass time before they got a patent on it. So maybe X-Windows is prior art, and COULD claim the patent, and this would allow Lindows to run free?
--------------------------
Is this a sig?
--------------------------
Have torvalds take lindows to court for copying the name of his intelectual property. Use many ofthe arguments that Microsoft are using, but present them poorly and deliberately throw the case. This will form precedent which would work against Microsoft.
Believe with me, my saplings.
Maybe they can use this: LindOSe - if they lose.
This is a SCAM if there ever was one. Here's how it works: 1. Become a monopoly (but of course LIE and say you're not one). 2. Sue everyone in sight...but make sure you RIP THEM OFF before you sue them! 3. Continue to rip them off AFTER you sue them. 4. Sue them totally out of business. 5. Steal what's left (that which you couldn't steal before). Make sure you pick that carcass clean now! Of course, you may do this with the full support and encouragement of the Congress and court system....after all, we ARE a capitalist country you know!
Guess you forgot about WinLinux
http://www.winlinux.net/2001/
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Compiling this list of software/hardware/anything using the term Windows or some derivative can be a bad thing. It may provide defense for Lindows against their lawsuit, but what if Lindows happens to lose the case? Microsoft now has a nice list of targets to abuse they're monopolistic power with. Would these developers (in a lot of cases, struggling to get by) be able to defend themselves? Probably not.
In a piece dated October 26th, John Dvorak (pc mag) stated "Lindows, has a name that in itself is genius. It's software that combines Linux and Windows without violating any trademark or copyright--although I bet Microsoft will sue at some point." The article is actually pretty good, check it out here
http://www.winlinux.net/2001/
Win Linux, Its as bad as Lindows with its naming, Microsoft has not sued them.
Why? Because it runs via Windows.
Lindows is the opposite, and its sued because its actually not running via Windows.
Then theres a few Winux's. Like Pogo Winux Desktop Computer and http://www.linux-france.org/prj/winux/English/
WinGroove http://www.cc.rim.or.jp/~hiroki/english/wgdl.html
And lots of other companies with Programs using Windows not just Indows like Lindows but WINDOWS. None of them get sued.
Even OS's that run on top of windows like Win Linux dont get sued.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
2002-01-10 21:59:08 Is the XP name copyrighted already? (askslashdot,microsoft) (rejected)
This is from a story I submitted earlier. I'm not going to type it again, but here are the links, you check it out. Look at the copyright date and remember that XP is a generic term for WindowsXP, and Microsoft often uses the term "XP" for Windows XP. It's used in commercials, and elsewhere. Does this cross the line?
XP - an XML Parser in Java
Google:Searched the web for XP. The above page is the second one down.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I remember reading that X was the successor to W. What was the full name of that windowing system.
http://www.mslinux.org/
Why Isnt Microsoft sueing them?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Aside from your first 2 sentences, what the fuck does your post have to do with anything? What difference does it make how good Windows was when it was released? How does that have the slightest fucking thing to do with the argument here? Try backing up the first 2 sentences with evidence and drop the rest of the bullshit.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
As to the actual trademark issue, Microsoft calls their products "Microsoft Windows XP Professional" and we call ours "LindowsOS". There is no confusion.
Also, Microsoft is alleging that anytime someone uses the word "windows" that means Microsoft. Take a trip to your local computer shop and see for yourself how many products are called "Windows something" on the store shelf that AREN'T endorsed by Microsoft in any way and yet aren't sued.
Apparently, when it's convenient for them, Microsoft claims that any use of "windows" is an infringement and unleashs their 600 person legal department and Bill's dads 350 lawyer firm Preston Gates as well. But only at rare times when its a convenient measure to block competition and chase away potential funding sources.
If you're helping extend their monopoly through use of windows term or not a perceived threat, then your use is ignored. Not a bad strategy to continue their hold on an illegally created monopoly if the courts will let you get away with it.
-- MR
Ok so now you cant create an Internet Hexplorer which runs on everything but Windows via commandline and displays websites as hex?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I think what's fair is fair. I checked M$ website and found this page. The text is very explicit in it's request for our comments. therefore no-spam charges will be possible. No lets everyone click submit.
/.ed < GRIN >
Gee... I wonder if M$ will get
I found it very interesting when you follow the links to sign up for Lindows.com Insiders plan that you have to tick a box that states, "I hereby certify that I am not a resident of Washington State". Doesn't this seem to be going a bit far to just try and prevent workers and family of Microsoft for becoming part of the Lindows.com insiders plan (assuming that this is what it is here for).
I am also very dubious at paying $99 just to see an inside peak at a new Operating System that is based on Open Source products.
Joining the Lindows.com program also states that you may not get any software to test, doesn't this sound a bit strange. "Joining the Lindows.com Insiders program does not guarantee that you will receive any software to test or review."
Also when you sign up you agree to "Agree to a non-disclosure agreement, keeping the program itself and those things you learn as a Lindows.com Insider confidential, just as any Lindows.com employee would".
Maybe I am just being paranoid, but doesn't all of this just seem a bit ridiculous?
It is not illegal to have a monopoly.
It is illegal to use that monopoly to do "bad things".
MS has been found guilty of doing some of those "bad things" through abuse of their monopoly. The monopoly itself is not illegal.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Maybe I'm wrong, but consider this:
The main reason napster became as huge as it did, was because of all the controversy caused by the RIAA, Lars, etc. It makes you wonder, would it have ever gotten that big had they not made such a big deal out of it? Thanks to them, napster became a household word, and then music sharing exploded on the net. Had they kept quiet, who knows...
My point being, since MS is making such a big deal out of this, it could actually work against them. More and more people are going to get the word, and be curious, maybe want to try it (the whole "any press is good press" deal).
I know I've been approached by my non-computer friends asking about this "Lindows thing", which surprised me, as they would never had had the slightest interest in linux.
So who knows, maybe it will work in their favor.
Starts with Win is no diffrent than Ends with Dows.
As far as WinLinux being an application, its not. Its an OS running on the WindowsFile system.
Because its run through Windows in the same way BeOS is run through Windows, Microsoft wont sue it simply because Its made for Windows users and doesnt harm their Market Share.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is how the case will be won, and how Microsoft will lose their trademark for Windows.
Lawyer: Mr Gates, could you help me by naming the things I point to?
Gates: Depends on what "point" means.
L: What would you call this? (points to empty blue spot on the screen)
G: That's the Microsoft Windows desktop.
L: Ok, now what is this thing here? (points to floating white box with titlebar and border)
G: That's an application window.
L: Exactly, that's a window. Now, (pointing to several application windows), what are these called?
G: Those are just windows.
L: Exactly! These are windows! It's not an OS, is it? It's a widget in a GUI!
G: Well... [insert blathering doublespeak here]
That's how the case will be won. "Windows" is a generic GUI term describing 2 or more applications.
Don't believe me? Let's look at some other trademarks that have been classified as generic:
Kleenex, Shredded Wheat, Aspirin, Corn Flakes, Baby Oil.
Of course we can see why those are generic, but how about these:
Al-Kol, Flor-Tile, Jujubes, and even Monopoly (the board game). All are generic, with their wierd spellings and everything.
If Monopoly can lose it's trademark, so can Windows.
Bookstores forced to tell who bought what,
Yup.
mailing list subscribers revealed
Yup.
I think it would only be responsible for any company that could piss off the government or a mega-corp to keep their client list in a destructable fashion
Actually, that would have to be a "destructed" fashion. That it, non-existent.
If you have information in a "destructable fashion" and receive a subpoena for said information, you can't destroy then destroy it. Contempt of court and all of that good stuff.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Or to set a competitor up so that the best-for-the-shareholder path (hah!) is to be bought out by Microsoft (and often shut down, as was apparently the plan for Hancom Office).
Anyway, if LindowsOS hits market and works as advertised I'm sure a large market segment will buy your product just to spit in Microsoft's eye.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Microsoft Windows XP -- 14 days without a remote hole in the default install!
Bush's education improvements were
Actually, it's X Window System. Though I suspect it is called X Windows as often as not.
Why did Microsoft want all those e-mail addresses ? Why did they bully the company to deliver them out ? This is something that would probably require a court order in Denmark. At least most companies would not voluntarily give out their customer information.
I think Lindows is doing a bad thing by handing over that info.
what about microprose? they use "micro" before the name of their brand of software.
stephen
Hey, I'm a washington State resident, so I can't contribute to the list at all :( I'm rather saddened by this, but I had a thought that I didn't know if mentioned on here yet.
:(
Somebody should go through programs such as serials 2000 and Oscar 2001, and search for all the entries that are win-something and windows, and just sort them out. It'd create at least a couple hundred different additions, and would be the quickest. I'd do it, but I live in Washington, so
Anyone know of any commercial products released pre or even slightly post-MS-Windows, specifically X stuff? I mean hell, if X was called X Windows by a lot of people back in the day, which seems likely, looking back at the terminology in the Xerox patent document, then Microshat really doesn't have rights to be bitchy about it, right?
Also, would microshat be happy if Lindows.com had a giant flickering banner that said "NOT MICROSHAT WINDOWS" at the top, and all Lindows products said "Not Microshat Windows"? I mean, giant flickering banners and amusing subtitles DO clear things up...
Which is why, I suspect that they were probably surrendered before the judge ordered it. It is in Lindows best interest to cause as big a stir as is possible. I'd really like to know if they gave up the emails before or after they were required to. 'Compelled' is a bit ambiguous to me.
The publicity is so much in their interest that they will most likely change their name to Winux if they lose...
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
Nice therory. Which well have you been living at the bottom of for the last two decades?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Damn straight! Someone please show me some evidence that this "LindowsOS" isn't simply a modified RH/Whatever Distro with Wine? I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest the contrary.
I would say right now that you would be a fool to pay $100 for LindowsOS when you can buy a good quality distro like RH/Mandrake containing the very best of Open Source development (both of which include Wine, ready to go on install) for a mere $10 - I suspect the quality of these distros will be much higher with better installers (mind you, I suppose they could pinch HardDrake or one of those since they are OpenSource).
Michael sounds to me like a bit of a "Chegwin", trying to earn money off the backs of others hard work and contributions and I say boo to you Michael!
I mean, come on, $100 a pop? Will the developers of Wine see any of that? Will Mr Torvalds? Will theKompany or the GNU people see any of that? Bet you a zillion trillion quid your "LindowsOS" uses software made by all these people. If you make money from their work, why shouldn't they?
Oh by the way, I still hope you win the court case, just because I still consider you the lesser of two evils.
(But only just!)
Wrong. RTFShA (Read The Fscking Sherman Act). Even I as a european know that much. Here's the first sentence of the 2nd section, straight from the DOJ website:
In other words, having a monopoly is definitely illegal under the Sherman Act.
Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I am getting tired of having my favourite fora overrun by Microsoft shills trying to downplay their crimes. Not that I am saying that you are such a shill, just that I am fed up with this line of baloney.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
There is also a genetic company called Microsort who let you choose the sex of your baby! Not quite a direct market connection HOWEVER with the rate MS is extending it's monopoly how long could it be (well how long before they start releasing genetic processing software anyway). Unfortunatley /. refused my story post of "Microsort chooses your sex" all those months ago when I first discovered it, I was aghast at the concept until I discovered the name of the country and then I pissed myself:-)
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Come on... Windows... Lindows... I bet Windows is pronounced Lindows in a couple of European countries for god sakes.
Why is everyone so quick to blame MS? All they did was ask for the list, it was the Lindows guys that handed it over without a fight. If MS handed over a list of hotmail users to another company even under order of the court everyone would be up in arms.
The Lindows guys are also going so far as to ask people to do their legal leg work by finding other products with Windows in the name. If MS did that everyone would laugh in their face.
Lindows is a commercial product, they are charging $100 a pop. Michael Robertson may not be as rich as Bill Gates but it doesn't make him any less greedy or any more ethical just a lesser business man.
If sex were liscensed under a BSD liscence, would you simply have to distribute "how-to" manuals, or would you still have to allow spectators?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Maybe they will start sending us even MORE spam!
Next spam I recive,ill sue M$ for it!
Windows 2000
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Micrsoft wont sue you if your name Starts with Win, but if it Starts with Lin, look out.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
will MS lose any right to the word windows.
If so this could be a mighty good opportunity.
All ye who have old articles, and software,
with windows there in the text its up to you
to turn this suit into the worst mistake of
MS.
Please please do it. Find out if anybody has it,
and get it done.
No doubt i'll be corrected if i'm wrong but isn't X-Windows older than the M$ Windows Family ? If this is the case surely M$ have no grounds for a case (or if they do then they've established precedent for one hell of a counter suit.)
If there was a decent offering of Linux games out there I would immediatly remove Windows from my PC, sell all my windows games, get the linux versions and live happily on in stability and peace.
It's the only reason I use windows at all.
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Wow 28 whole days. Cause for celebrations.
Why shouldn't they?
Why should they?
These people have already given their software out to the greater good. They've given up their ability to directly profit from it, and how is that bad? It's their decision.
As for price, let the markets decide if it's worth it. DOn't call anyone stupid for using the program, let them decide if it's worth it to them and trust in their own judgement. If Lindows fails then it fails and it's not skin off of anyone's back.
If it succeeds, though, it will help move linux out into the real world a lot more and in the end it will actually help the rest of the distributions. The people who wrote these programs will benefit in that indirect way. This is really what they signed up for in releasing their software under OS.
Hopefully Lindows will contribute improvements back to the main projects, but even if it doesn't it's still a good thing. I think you're completely offbase with this attack on Michael's project.
So what if the dows is referring to Windows? The "win" in Winmodem is referring to Windows and in the majority of the other computer related project names that they came up with the win or dows was referring to windows.
The word windows, no matter what it is referring to, is just too generic to try to protect in this way.
There _is_ confusion, between 'Windows' and 'Lindows', as the majority of the crowd will call both products. Ask an average joe in the street if he knows the OS 'Windows' and he probably will say 'yes'. It's also not up to YOU to decide that there is NO confusion. the 'dows' in your name IS refering to Windows, not to Dow Jones or anything else.
/. By your own reasoning any name the contains a subset of the characters in windows is confusing and therefore should not be allowed.
And please, stop the yadda yadda about 'if you want to help extend their monopoly'... you try to make a living out of the hard work of others as you also did with MP3.com. If there is ONE person that should be ashamed, it should be you.
This is one of the most stupid comments if ever read on
I went to the store the other day and bought some window cleaner and brought it home and was confused because i couldn't run it on my PC. Those bastards should not be allowed to call their product Window cleaner if it does not have anything to do with microsoft products.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
As far as I'm concerned, you're all suckers who have fallen for Lindows marketing.
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
There _is_ confusion, between 'Windows' and 'Lindows'... SNIP...It's also not up to YOU to decide that there is NO confusion
OH, I get it...HE can't decide there is no confusion while you CAN decide that there IS?
That's a bigger (read more obvious) double standard that the big-M supports themselves!
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Franklin
It'll be two decades before we fully recover from the harm Clinton did to this country and to the world.
OK, the man had his faults. OK, the man did some (many) things I didnt like either. What I dont understand is why you think it will take 20yrs to recover from a married man lying about getting a blow job...most (98%+) married men would at least TRY lie thier wat out of it, just as he did.
FWIW, I know Russians who were still in Russia when the scandal happened. They refised to ridicule me for being a yankee at the time, because at least our Pres could get it up!
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Franklin
to not talk about mircosoft which is developing a specialised windows-system with mIRC as it primary application!
its not a finished product by a longshot yet, but hey, mirc32.exe as shell.
where do you want to chat today?
Can't the Lindows OS people just say that the name is being used in parody? To the best of my knowledge, parodies cannot be sued (legally).
I'm a repairman in an imperfect world.
Linux is an operating system and Windows is an operating system, people could confuse their operating system for ours and buy the wrong one. I mean, Lin* and Win* sound alot the same. Maybe we should sue..........
This has to be the ultimate software piece. It's not just an appliction for windows, in fact it's an operating system replacement for windows. :)
How did this one slip though?
-- Jason...
As far as I can tell "Microshaft Winblows" is the closest name to "Microsoft Windows" ever used for a non-MS piece of software.
Yes, and its also a parody, which means its not an infrigement.
Please insert 50c to play again
Have you tried using the DOMAIN\Username format for your user name?
Most likely the admin doesn't know how to configure basic authentication properly.
Of course, if you're reading your mail in a web browser, you really should get whoever runs it to set up SSL if they haven't already...
So, basically, what most of you are saying is that if Microsoft wanted to put out a version of UNIX and call it, oh, 'Winux' or, say, Microsoft Linux XP Server, that would be OK?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I used to work a lot with Digital's offerrings. They have had the name DECwindows for their implementation of X since the eighties. It is even a registered trademark!!!
See my journal, I write things there
I think the whole thing is meant to draw overnight attention to LindowsOS and sympathy to its company. The jerks (lindow$.com) sold out on potential customers over the NAME of their vaporware. There's nothing about a subpeona in the press release, M$ asked for email addresses and lindow$.com sleazily sold us out. Why didn't lindow$.com trademark the name "Lindows" while they trade- marked the name "LindowsOS?" Who's going to trust a company that rolls over and succumbs to M$ like that? Linus Torvalds must be spinning in his cubicle..
I'm not saying that it's likely, but some of the peices fit.
Kind thoughts do not change the world
1/ Where are your stats to write in the name of "the majority of the crowd" ?
;-)
... pride.
2/ I thought facts prevailed on thoughts in a trial.
If what people think mattered more than what really IS, then Microsoft would already have been splitered or many innocents would have been sentenced. What the majority of the crowd think only matters during elections.
3/ As you said : "It's also not up to YOU to decide that there is NO confusion". No it's really not up to you...
It does apply to you too. You cannot state what people really think and a judge cannot state that too. Even a survey cannot be used as a proof, else it would be sufficient in order to rule a law, to elect a president or to send someone to jail...
In fact it would be too dangerous for freedom if it was sufficient for a court to say people think something to rule a sentence. Just imagine :
"hey many people understand 'hackers' are pirates so let's inprison every computer experts in the country". This is not a stupid exemple. Here I paraphrase you : "hey many people understand 'dows' as 'Windows' so let's fordib any software that use 'dows' and are OS".
"Windows" & "Lindows" differ on the first letter. The beginning of a word is the most important to differenciate it from others. If you say "Lindows" to some he will propbably(1) ask you whether you wanted to say "Windows", then you explain the difference. If the difference was at the end of the name, it would be more elusive. Compare "Windoes" or "weendoos" with "Windows". According to your accent these names can be extremely confusing. For instance, these names would probably be pronounced the same by foreigners (I don't know with american accents).
Interestingly their spelling is much different than "Lindows".
4/ Will "Lindows.com, Inc" package their product with a design close to Microsoft (colors, font...) ? Well I don't know. If they do then they will probably be sentenced (at least here in Europe). Sincerely I doubt they will choose such a dumb marketing decision. However, Microsoft disputes the TM, not the package design.
So what ?
It is not given "the majority of the crowd" would confuse both products names.
Secondly, even in this case it would be a shame for justice to rule a decision on mood rather than on facts.
(1) : ok I give no more statistics than you do
NB : Mikael : I'm not convinced by your product. But I really hope you will be able to kick their
The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then
It's interesting to see just how many companies MS hasn't sued yet. I just made the following submissions to the list on the Lindows site...
;)
WinDos: a graphical file system browser for DOS
Findows 98+: a graphing/organizer program for the TI-85 calculator
Lindos Electronics: a British company whose name is pronounced exactly the same as Lindows
WinDose: a piece of pharmacy software that runs under Windows
Guess they better get cracking... they've got a lot of people to sue! After all, this IS about name infringement, right?
On google, I found references to Lindows and Winux in 1998. Years before Lindows.com even existed.
... yadda yadda yadda..
If Microsoft didn't attempt to stop use of the term "Lindows" (in one case, directly referring to Red Hat 'becoming' Windows 95"), wouldn't it be free to use by now?
Besides, do you call your "Windows" installation Windows, or Windows 2k, or Windows 9x or Windows XP? There are so many of them that are distincly different..
Kinda of like the Kleenex thing (You can't legally call non "Kleenex" tissue paper "Kleenex", but everyone does it anyways..)
Lego tried the same thing 10 or 15 years ago.. I remember reading "Lego would appreciate it if our loyal customers called Lego Building Blocks by their true name, "Lego Building Blocks", and not just "Lego's"
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
This really bugs me. I just saw the moderation of this comment, and it is rediculous. As I understand it, bash Microsoft and its' users and it is not flamebait, but if you dare to comment about the absurdity of a complaint against Microsoft it is flamebait.
Go ahead, moderate as you will, but no matter your feelings about Microsoft, it is not flamebait for someone else to support them.
Why is it that people always hear what I say, and not what I mean?
People can whine all they want or misread what I ment to say, but it's up to the judge to decide if Lindows is sounding similar to Windows and can THUS cause confusion, it's NOT up to Michael and gang, nor me nor MS.
:). In the field where heads role when something/someone f*cks up, you get the right tools for the job, so f.e. when a router should be installed, most people call cisco and get one of their boxes. Monopoly or not.
The comment of Michael about supporting MS monopoly is utterly stupid. You know why? because in a lot of cases MS' products are the right tools for the job. Who carez about a monopoly, a job is there to be done. Bashing that remark of Michael is probably 'flamebait' in the eyes of the college kids with linux boxes, dunno
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
First of all, a Winmodem is not an OS.
Second of all the sole purpose of the name Lindows is to sound like Windows. They are profiting, or attempting to, off of Windows popularity, then it is an infringement.
Now Microsoft is under no obligation to sue everyone who profits off of its' trademarks, but they have every right to sue those that choose to go this path. It is not surprising that Microsoft chose Lindows. If Lindows would have come up with a more generic name, Microsoft would have no case. Microsoft is just making sure that whatever competition they have out there is fair. An unsuspecting user might buy Lindows thinking that it was a Microsoft product, and that makes the competition unfair.
Is this how Lindows wants to make its money? Or do they want to prove to the world that they are a better alternative. If so, then a simple name change will take care of both issues.
Just because it's Microsoft doesn't make it evil.
Why is it that people always hear what I say, and not what I mean?
I wonder if the BSA sends out e-mails as well as those charming little letters?
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
Not at all like the Kleenex thing. You can't legally call non-Kleenex-brand tissue paper "Kleenex," and *NO ONE* does... not in any commercial situation.
Find me a novel in which the lead character blows her nose into a Kleenex. Find me a TV show where a character asks someone to "pass the Kleenex." Or a computer monitor-cleaning product named "Kleenex."
Good luck. Because Kimberly-Clark is a company which has learned its lesson from Bayer: those who don't retain control of their trademark, lose their trademark. If you'll please go to your local magazine shop and look at one of the "Writers Guide"-style magazines, you'll soon find advertisements from K-C telling authors exactly how to use the Kleenex trademark.
Microsoft's protection of the Windows brand is exactly unlike Kimberly-Clark's protection of the Kleenex brand. To wit, it appears that Microsoft has done bugger all to ensure that the term "Windows" is not used in conjuction with computer software of any sort.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Microsoft is just making sure that whatever competition they have out there is fair.
Are you listening to yourself??
If you believe that the Empire promotes, or will even tolerate, fair competition on technical merit in the desktop OS market (or any other market they enter), I have some _great_ land available in Arkansas. Also a super bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
M$ is _the_ modern master of unfair business practice, more or less defining the term. I just can't feel sorry for them, even if someone arguably steps near their name. _I_ have no trouble distinguishng Lindows from Winbloze, just as I have no difficulty distinguishing KDE from CDE. When the Empire "borrows" some *NIX feature (like, say, TCP/IP) from BSD, we're supposed to just say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and just go on. As soon as somebody tries to make an emulator that would actually _compete_ with Winbloze, whoa, that's a trademark infringement!!
Just because it's Microsoft doesn't make it evil.
Yes it does, that's one of my major qualifications nowdays for evil.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
They may find the email list useful as a tool to try to change jurisdiction. If Microsoft can prove that Lindows was doing business in Washington state (through a Washington state address in the email list), it may make it easier to change jurisdiction to Washington, where Microsoft has many more lawyers and the case would be more convenient for them.
But no, the remark by Michael is stupid, not 'right on the mark'.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Assuming that by _great_ you were being sarcastic.
We have good farmland, nice rivers for boating, and forests for camping and hiking to name a few. There is very little polution also. Unlike the bridge in Brooklyn you can actually sell the land in Arkansas, so what's so bad about it.
Living in a large city isn't for everyone. While city life may have alot of positive aspects, there are certain drawbacks which some find to be enough not to merit that lifestyle.
-- john
Actually, many of the Joes on the street I run into (I work for a VAR) think that they use "Office" or "Microsoft". There is rarely any differentiation between the company or its products in the average home user's mind.
I wish I could be sure this was funny. Past practices, however, and difficulty of proof mean that I wouldn't be too surprised.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Even if you were to have deep enough pockets, just finding the evidence that they disclosed the evidence would be difficult. Unless you have a very systematic way of misspelling your name or address (and keep good records).
... but that's a much larger wad of cash than just hiring a lawyer.
Of course, with deep enough pockets anyone you choose is guilty of whatever you choose
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
If that and Outlook won't kill Unix (Solaris in this case) I'm not sure what will. Silly M$ all your plans have come to nothing.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I'm not talking about the lying stuff. All of that really means very little in the general scheme of things.
However, there is a ton of stuff that is STILL being investigated, and a ton that will never be completely discovered, I'm sure. Just the sellout of this country to China alone could probably fill volumes.
The Bush administration probably does have a slightly weak domestic policy, but that's better than the completely nonexistant foreign policy of the Clinton era. He sold us out to our future enemies, big time.
If they choose to, they could license the use of the name for a penny per year, and that would count as "protecting" it.
So there's no legal requirement that they attack visciously. That's just the MS SOP.
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Hi, Please add "billg@microsoft.com" to your subscription list.
Thank you.
P.S. My buddy steveb@microsoft.com is interested in receiving more information about your product.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Well, because that wouldn't sound as cool, which is another way of saying it wouldn't have the desired effect of sounding like its main competitor, Microsoft Windows!
No, not at all. Whether the name sounds cool or not has nothing to do with its competitors.
Second of all the sole purpose of the name Lindows is to sound like Windows. They are profiting, or attempting to, off of Windows popularity, then it is an infringement.
I don't think this is so. I think the name is supposed to conjure a hint at Windows, after all it's supposed to be a drop in replacement, more or less, but I don't think its main purpose is to sound like Windows. The only reason the thing isn't called "Linuxdows" is because that name sounds horrible.
They're not trying to profit off of Windows popularity any more than a game would that brags about running under XP or something.
I was under the impression that they were under the obligation to sue just about everyone or else they would risk the name becoming too generic to protect in the future. Is this not so?
I think the word "Windows" is already too generic to protect by itself. Before Microsoft Windows came out there were already windows running on other GUIs, right? That were called windows? I'd say that if it's not "microsoft windows" then its not trademarkable.
I'd say a name change would do no good or bad, but it shouldn't be forced upon them.
hmmm... Microsoft claims that any operating system using the word "windows" (or something that sounds like that) infringes on their trademark, while Apple claims that calling one of their recent operating systems "Mac OS-9" does not infringe on the trademark Microware has on OS-9... I guess the larger company always wins.
I would recommend that LindowsOS examine the OS-9 case for a couple reasons:
fair use is, of course, also why programmers are allowed to release products named WinZip or Windowmaker. if other software companies are allowed to indicate MS Windows compatibility through a similarity of names, why isn't LindowsOS?
they might want to check out products related to GeoWorks, too.
everyone points to the MacDonalds/McDowells case as proof that LindowsOS infringes on MS Windows, but the cases are not strictly similar. in one, someone is making a look-alike product and trying to trick people into purchasing it using branding (McDowells was pretending to be MacDonalds.) in the other, someone is making a product designed to replace another product.
in other words, if consumers were to confuse LindowsOS with MS Windows, this would hurt LindowsOS; potential customers of LindowsOS have to be aware of MS Windows and want a substitute.
I mention Arkansas merely for the unfortunate association between it and the land development scams of our former first "lady". That was NOT meant as an impugement (is that a real word?) of an otherwise fine state. (Well, Arkansas could perhaps be criticized for providing a less-than-stellar president, but that's a value judgement, and you were justified in getting rid of him by any means necessary. And Arkansas had to live through eight years of skirt-lifting, stranger-to-the-truth presidency just like the rest of the nation. Fair is fair.)
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Here is the real question of trademark:
Did you, have you or could you confuse the LindowOS brand name with anything Microsoft related?
Probably not. It's not like calling some *Palm*PC when the major competitor is a *Palm*Pilot.
Don't fool yourself, this is a business tactic being fought by lawyers.
inky
Sheesh... just call the damn thing 'Portholes'. :-)
Security through promiscuity is no better than security through obscurity.
Except they havn't. The Internet is a new medium, and up until now, Microsoft allows use of the term 'Windows' in ways other than in Microsoft Windows (version) througout this medium.
As I said, there are example of this on Google from 1998. That was a 2 minute search. If K-C can dictate how authors use the term "Kleenex", and Microsoft has not done so for the terms Windows, Lindows, Winux, when used by reviewers, it has become commonplace, and should not be protected.
Didn't Bayer lose 'Aspirin'? Maybe that was a better example.
I would say use of the word "Windows" in other product names, and "lindows" being used on the internet, in conversation long before Lindows.com existed, only strenghtens Lindows.com's case.
but. Tis all IMHO. I think MS should be broken up too.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
That was not the reasoning at all.
... ;-)
In fact Lindows contains "indows" of Windows, not just "dows" (I'm fascinated by how many people can't read here). The point being made by the previous poster is that the reason they chose "Lindows" over, say, "Leenex" is because they're making an alternative to "Windows" not a tissue
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
and the restructuring of the licensing fees of FFLs, and about a hundred other things like the "assault weapons" ban (more precisely a "large" magazine ban) which have done irrepairable damage to Americans' freedom to keep and bear arms.
You Brits may not think that RKBA is important, but we still do.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
{First post!} Harumph, what branch of the government does Microsoft think it is, already?! *~~(:-o)
Hmm Xwindows was around a long time before Windows, and there is only one letter differnce and the name Windows was chosen bacause it also is a windowing system. Who's calling the kettle black?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
I did some research into trademark law (and yes, IANAL) a couple of years ago when I was in a band and we wanted to trademark our name.
From what I recall, if a company doesn't exercise due dilligence in defending their trademark, then they forfiet the right to it.
So, wouldn't MS NOT going after a score of other products, all using Windows, or something similar, basically invalidate their claim on a trademark for Windows. I think the defense should be able to use this point to pretty effectively shut down any suit on this line.
Of a liberal, that is. If you're anti-democrat, you're a racist/fascist/heartless pig. If you want to disagree with someone, do it on an intellectual level supporting your argument with facts, not by name calling.
I almost felt like trying to point out the flaws in your argument, but I feel my breath would be wasted on deaf ears and numb mind.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Maybe someone should just code the "Windoze" OS, release it under the GPL, and see what comes of that. After all, it has "wind" in it, just like "windows". Plus, the mocking of MS would be outstanding if it ever got popular. ;)
- yoink
Very funny, perhaps if they ame up with original names for their products in the first place instead of hijacking very common almost generic words. Office, Word, Money, Windows,...
"better ways of doing things eventually just replace the inferior things" - Linus Torvalds 09-08-07
The name was obviously chosen because at the time (about 1990?) "kool" computers used something called "X".
Bayer lost aspirin because it was siezed by the government, along with a lot of other German assets at the beginning of WWII. Bayer still holds the trademark everywhere else in the world, AFAIK.
Kleenex, Coke, and Pepsi, are all vehemently defending their trademarks, though I think they're all in trouble.
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
Easy, you tell em to get stuffed while you lock and load your 9mm.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I haven't rebooted my WinXP box in 28 days.
28 days? Should be about time for the next menstrual (reboot) cycle.....
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
And what games do you play in linux that make windows look unstable? Loki's ports are not any more stable than their windows counterparts.. the only difference I see is if one of them locks up you just hit ctr alt backspace and then type startx..
Had you asked what games are more stable under Linux than under Windows you might have a point. Windows looks unstable because when the game goes south the OS goes with it. The fact that the closest Windows comes to a Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is the Ctrl-Alt-Delete or an executive logoff (power button) points to the instability of the OS.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
The system itself did, but I am not sure about the name - do you have a source for that of some sort? I don't even remember (or know, rather) when 'X' was renamed to 'X' from 'W' (some geeky Latin alphabet thing; I am gonna take a guess that 'W' stood for a 'window' derived word of some kind); but I seriously doubt that anything was known as the "X Window System" any time before the MIT project... I'd love to know if anyone has more concrete information.
sic transit gloria mundi
"Linux" is a trademarked name. "*indows" is not trademarked, while "Windows" is. If you don't use the exact trademark, then the only thing you have to worry about is being confusingly similar. Lindows.com should put on their webpage that the product name is pronounced "lin-dohs-ahs" or "lin-dohs-ohs". Then, they could laugh at the MS lawyers making their argument.
"lin-dohs-ahs is confusingly similar to windows. If a carpenter was building my house and said he was going to install the lin-dohs-ahs, I would immediately think he meant the windows."
Grumble, Grumble
Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann
Seriously, though, how many companies have trademarks with the word 'windows' in them which have been around much longer than MS?
Perhaps a bunch of them should get together and sue (or at least request a list of every mailing address and email address that MS has ever obtained in the course of their business).
Why is Grand Theft Auto a much more serious crime than Reckless Driving?
I personally wouldn't go so far as to call Windows an OS - seems more like a viral environment to me ;) .. or to quote from the ESR dictionary which seems oddly appropriate:
A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.
If you want to get down to it - isn't the X Window System (Trademark Open Group) more similar to Windows and doesn't its trademark and use of Windows terminology predate Microsoft, and hasn't there been confusion surrounding this term propogated by Microsoft to the point where there has been dilution of a previous trademark?
How about teaming with the Open Group and countersuing?
First.. As everyone always says.. There is no such thing as "X Windows". it's "X" or "The X window system"
Also, X predates microsoft.
ALSO... Windows is NOT a 'generic term for a type of GUI'. It is a specific, trademarked name of a line of operating system products sold by Microsoft.
No, but you would have to list all of the people you slept with (thus contributing to your work), and all of the people they slept with (contributing to theirs contributing to yours), etc etc. It would make tracking of communicable diseases easier tho.
-no broken link
Shrub Jr. and Heart Attack Man(tm) have done enough damage to our country already. They need to be kicked out of office as quick as Shrub Sr. should've been. At least Clinton never bothered reading a speech that said "I have three points to make here tonight. 1:' duhduhduh' 2: education 3: make education number 1.". And he doesn't believe in Strategery. Hah!
How come Microsoft didn't sue IBM for "OS/2 for Windows"? even other versions of OS/2 starting with OS/2 2.0 had "WinOS/2" and microsoft didn't lift a finger. Scared to go head-to-head with the Big Blue?
Actually - Windows is a registered trademark of the George M. Leader Family Corp for patients with Dementia. Microsoft just has Windows XP trademarked. Sounds like dementia infringement to me ..
I certainly wouldn't try this in Texas and would definitely hesitate to in anywhere outside of the Peoples Republic of California.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Isn't that exactly what I said? "Microsoft's protection of the Windows brand is exactly unlike Kimberly-Clark's protection of the Kleenex brand."
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Considering that I've only subscribed to the news portion of their distribution lists (whats happening with regards to the Lindows product), I'm confused as to why my e-mail address need be handed over in a trademark violation case.
Who cares how many people are interested in when the product is due to be released considering I thought the case was about how many people are confused by its name.
Not that I'm overly concerned, the e-mail address in question goes to work so if it starts getting spammed no biggie, but its annoying either way.
PENAROL: Seras eterno como el tiempo y floreceras en cada primavera.
Their website is here.
At sites where I am buying something, I have tried using the site name in the second line of the address, but they never seem to use it. I need to come up with a way to put something like:
in there so they will use it and I can cross reference to figure out who sells my meatspace info. Everything I have tried so far seems to get ignored or dropped
file:
So where do you stand damnit?!?
:)
(I'm so f*cking lost now..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Welcome to Bush's America?
Where were you in 1998 - sixth, or seventh grade? Those of us who were paying taxes in 1998 remember that Bill Clinton had been President for six years, and that his administration was responsible for most of the pathetic mewling heard coming from the USDOJ.
I find your willingness to blame a Republican President for Bill Clinton's failure amusing.
Now go away.
Slashdot is my Mercer Box.
One of the big thing about this suit is that the LindowsOS name involves TWO trademarked, competing OSes, Microsoft Windows (which is, IIRC, the full trademarked name) and Linux.
This, however, may indicate a far more subtle attack by Microsoft. If it wins this trial, it can go on to say that Torvalds is not actively defending his trademark, and thus it is no longer legitimate. Combine that with the underhanded support of a few bastards who don't mind making "Linux distributions" that are almost, but not quite like our penguin friend...
Not cool. But possible.
My beef was with your saying that Microsoft had defended Windows just as poorly as Kleenex has. That's not true: Kleenex has defended their brand extremely well. Microsoft has not.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
is "Suite" or STE
:)
I put "Suite #####" or "Suite SLASH" for instance on a lot of my mail, and they DO put it through, and keep it there, because they believe it's important.
I'll give you that for free
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
Bear in mind that the first Windows wasn't actually graphical (and never mind the fact that it didn't actually work either, this is Microsoft we're discussing) so at release it didn't accomplish what X already did, namely a WYSIWYG-style GUI interface.
Now, given that X is descended from Paul Asente's W Windowing System, which already existed in 1984, tell me, which Window(s|ing) has the longer history?
...which in turn can't be confused with Macintosh or Lisa, but that didn't stop Microsoft from suing Apple, and vice-versa. Did you know that variable-sized elevators are an idea that BillG personally squashed in the first graphical version of Windows because it didn't look exactly like the Macintosh?
But I digress: the Windows system can indeed be confused with any glass-plated hole in the wall which isn't actually a door. The X Windowing System is a little more difficult to confuse with the glassed hole, but still easy to confuse with the Windows system.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing