Slashdot Mirror
Slippery Slime Developed to Control Crowds
powlow writes "Southwest Research Institute (press release )developed a non-hazardous chemical spray system that spreads a highly slippery, viscous gel (which the lab designated a "mobility denial system" and dubbed "banana peel
in a can") to inhibit the movement of individuals or vehicles on treated surfaces. Marines Corps believes it can be used for crowd control. (Defense Technical Information Center's PDF Report) In tests, volunteers attempted in vain to walk across a lawn sprayed
with the slime, and in fact, had they not been safety-harnessed during the tests, many would have broken bones."
So how is this "non-hazardous"? Are they going to hand out safety harnesses to crowds before they get sprayed with slime?
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
I wonder if they can't just skate across it. I expect they'll just start to have a different type of shoe to deal with the problem soon (at least the professional protestors). What do the Hurling people wear? Nike Glide ;-)
Ralf
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
-Bertrand Russel
Is there something I'm missing?
The more you know, the less you understand.
They also field-tested this at Mardi Gras this year in New Orleans. Unfortunately, the crowds mistook it for a personal lubricant and 47 people ended up hospitalized for exhaustion.
Knowing rioters, they'd just push each other down into the slippery substance and proceed to then beat the stuffing out of their fallen comrades.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Lemme get this straight. If they weren't harnessed, many people would've broken bones on a lawn, and they want to use this stuff for crowd control? Yeah, I'm sure the Marine lawyers think this is a GREAT idea!
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."
Are they seriously pushing this as a crowd control product? I mean, tear gas is bad and not used often, but after a few hours, you're all back to normal. What's going to happen to a city that uses this on demostrators, many of whom will end up in the hospital with big doctor's bills. Would those demostrators not have a legitamit case against the city/county/state/fed goven't that did that?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
- Rubber Bullets / Bean Bag Rounds (can cause permanent damage, although if used properly rarely do)
- "Pepperball"-type products. Fabrique Nationale has a new one on the way that is a purpose-built CO2 launcher (not a paintball gun) that shoots chemical mace, a hard-nosed projectile, and my personal favorite, a "malodorant" that causes the target to puke himself into giving up
On the mass-of-people front, there isn't much to do besides tear gas grenades, or making an example out of some with the above options. This gel could prove to be very useful, especially as a deterrent BEFORE riot-type activities start (anyone for slicking down the sidewalk in front of the WTO meeting?) A few skinned knees are MUCH more desirable than broken teeth cause some cop got jostled when he fired the rubber baton launcher.This is fine as long as "riot police" get the "sensitivity training". If it won't kill, it is more often used. Just look at the Seattle protests of over zealous used of tear gas and pepper spray. Yes, rioters were gased, but there is video of sit in protestors being gassed, hit with batons, etc.
If it's not deadly, its more okay to use...Now this, people can break bones...great....
Burn Hollywood Burn
Non-lethal, less than lethal, etc, all of these technologies lend themselves to abuse of law enforcement types. Civil disobediance will be curtailed by uses of this type of thing?
"What? Dr. King? You're planning to march where? You and those nigger troublemakers can get the hell out of Selma. You can walk back to the bus, because you aren't going to make it into town. You'll break every fibula in the group if you walk past this slippery line."
Because it's non lethal. Why would anyone make a big deal about it?
If it's not serious enough for them to use force, that means that the event isn't serious.
Though slippery slime is not as bad as some of the other so-called "non lethal" weapons being developed out there, it's still in violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, which bans chemical agents producing temporary incapacitation.
Though "chemical warfare" readily brings WWI chlorine-gas warfare to mind, agents don't simply have to asphyxiate or burn opponents to death to qualify as inhumane. One may wonder whether there is such a thing as humane war, but it is certainly more fair to attack healthy and active combattants than it is to attack incapacitated ones. And don't believe for a second that the Pentagon is interested in this stuff just for non-combat activities.
Besides, one has to wonder how good this stuff can be at crowd control anyway. Immobilizing foam has its uses, because it can transform a chaotic situation into one where the actors -- rioters, for example -- can no longer continue their disturbances. It hardly seems prudent, however, to create a situation where everyone is sliding all over the place.
I'm sure a crowd of people slipping around is a very amusing sight, but what happens if someone gets seriously injured? How would the ambulance crew get to them without being injured themselves?
My life is one big siesta in which I'm dreaming I wished my life was one big siesta.
Wasn't a similar product featured on that godawful Robocop TV series?
If I recall, the police were given this ultra-slippery spray foam stuff in order to quell rioters. However, as soon as it was used, the police started falling over themselves, with "amusing" boing noises playing on the soundtrack.
Of course, I could go on to whinge about the legacy of the one good film (the first one) being further driven into disgrace, but that would be -1, Redundant.
at the Anti-DMCA,SSSCA,RIAA,MPAA rally! Why not give it to the Jamacan Bobsled team instead?
oh boy, just in time for hooligan season.
Hell yeah!
Phazer crowd control Phasor Pain Field Generator for Mounting on a CAR!
Ultrasonic wave generator that causes nerve stimulation and overload to the point of writhing on the ground in such pain you forget to bef for it to stop!
Slippery slime will only piss people off because they keep falling. And how are the police supposed to go in and arrest or cuff these people if they're slipping around in it themselves?
I can just see rioters and police wearing golf/soccer shoes to get traction.
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
many times a crowd control means dispersing the crowd, hence the application of tear gas and many other methods. Putting this slimy thing will just immobilize the crowd, and they'll just, stay there?
Another issue being, how can the person who apply this stuff not affected it? Police officers can wear a mask while using tear gas, I wonder if there's any way to avoid it. Maybe a spike show, like those a spinter wear to run in grass would do. Demonstrators and rioters would probably come prepared if it's just as simple as wearing a different type of shoes.
Having said that, I guess this material is probably going to be useful in some other industrial applications. It's interesting nonetheless.
geek page at KY speaks
Does this mean my old Slip And Slide thing is still worth something? If this slime is what it says it is, then I can get some SERIOUS speed down that plastic mat. Might need to extend it, too...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
I am quite troubled that my government pays for research for crowd control measures. (you may as well call them population control).
While some sports fanatics may be a problem, they can be dealt by the usual police methods, of wearing riot gear and restricting them until their highs decrease.
Sports riots are also not a federal problem (unless they happen in dc which is bnot very likely). Also the UIS doesnt really have a serious sports riot problem, as opposed to some european countries.
These methods are clearly aimed at protesters. Which means that the government is using our taxpayer money to research new ways to silence its critics.
And that is very troubling.
Whatever you may think of the anti-WTO protesters for whom this invention is clearly made, i hope you will agree that people like them have the right to criticize the government, and make their voices heard.
"It's Slime Time"
C-X C-S
...and in a related story, a Lawn Luge event is being added to the X-Games next year.
The general observation is not widespread, but trivially, the respectively interdepartmental maintenance is connected up to agenerally alternative circulation. Since the past history is not connected up to the attendant interest, the substance is weak.Trivially, the separate insufficience is not known to be very clear,but it is easy to overlook the fact that a substance responsibility in close proximity to the accordingly schedulable friction is not beneficial. This leaves out of consideration the fact that the redefinition is very unique, and it is interesting to note that a cleanly dubious insufficience is in the vicinity of the preparedly functional enhancement. It is intuitively clear that the separate discretion is not being caused by real physics, but the fact is that a prepared
:-P
substance is no known to be consistently durable.
So while it looks like a good idea on the suface, the chemestry just isn't there.
Still, I could be wrong, and they know something I don't. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. It'll be neat if they get it working, unless I get sprayed with it.
Jordan Bettis
``Wherever you go, there's another stupid sigfile quote.''I'm all for non-lethal supression of demonstrations when they create a public nuisance without cause. But what happens when the demonstrators are right? Will non-lethal slime, sound waves etc. increase the likelyhood of police supression?
... etc.
No suffragette movement? No civil-rights movement?
e4 e5
First of all, by your assessment cops using pepper spray are violating the chemical weapons convention.
So what?
Second of all, the idea of weapons in general is to make combat as unfair as possible. You don't have to like it, but that is the idea behind war - it's not supposed to be "fair."
Flat5
How could a crowd disperse if they were unable to move across slippery ground, or if they were themselves covered in slippery goo? Sounds like it would make it more difficult to disperse a crowd than, say, tear gas.
I remember this stuff. Don't they use it in national lampoon's christmas vacation?
I only ask becuase things didn't turn out good for clark when he used it on a snow disc.
=================
Unix is very user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are.
Cool, next time there is a protest, I might have to bring my snowboard :)
Since when was war fair? If slippery-slime will help bring home more troops, slime away. It's pretty easy for you to sign on to 'fair war' when your sitting behind your computer under the delusion that you will never be called out. I sure as hell bet your attutude would change if your where the one of the front line.
There was a similar agent called "Instant Banana Peel" developed for riot control in the early '70s. Perhaps this stuff is more slippery, I don't know, but it is hardly news.
Dog is my co-pilot.
Cop1: "EVERYONE DISPERSE! THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING!"
...
Cop2: "They aren't moving, slime em."
SPLOTCH!
Cop1: "NOW EVERYONE DISPERSE!"
Hippie: "Ok, ok, we're moving... um, wait a second, we CAN'T MOVE!"
Cop1: "Bill, you go out there and drag a few out."
Cop2: "You got it Bob..."
(Bill slips on the slime halfway down the street)
Cop1: "Damn... Hey, Charlie, get you but out there and help Bill!"
... hours pass
Cop1: "Steve, you go and try and help Jim help Greg help Monica help Charlie help Bill."
Cop7: "Sure thing boss!"
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
This is very interesting. I wonder though if its use on grass could be defeated by wearing cleats? Soccer cleats do a pretty good job on rain-slick grass. That wouldn't help on asphalt or hard surfaces though.
"This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."
Being slimed is inhumane but rubber bullets are not? And since you are so anti-chemical weapons, maybe you should've read your own link where it refers only to chemical weapon use in warfare. Being slimed refers to riot control which is approved given proper listing of chemicals used. In fact do you understand all implications of the treaty. Why isn't dihydrogen monoxide considered a chemical weapon? Discount the fact that you're wrong about slime, a blast of good old dihydrogen monoxide has temporarily incapacitated many a charging rioter. It has been used for crowd/riot control for ages. Under your (wrong) interpretation that would be illegal under the Chemical Weapons Convention.
..." With slime, which chemical action on which life process causes temporary incapacitation?
From YOUR link:
1. "Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately:
(a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes;
(b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a
result of the employment of such munitions and devices;
(c) Any equipment specifically designed for use directly in connection with the employment of munitions and devices specified in subparagraph (b).
2. "Toxic Chemical" means:
Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless
of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere.
(For the purpose of implementing this Convention, toxic chemicals which have been identified for the application of verification measures are listed in Schedules contained in the Annex on
Chemicals.)
From YOUR link:
5. Each State Party undertakes not to use riot control agents as a method of warfare.
From YOUR link:
7. "Riot Control Agent" means:
Any chemical not listed in a Schedule, which can produce rapidly in humans sensory irritation or disabling physical effects which disappear within a short time following termination of exposure.
From YOUR link:
9. "Purposes Not Prohibited Under this Convention" means:
(d) Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes.
As for combat uses... if they can hit an adversary with foam or slime, why can't they equally easily hit them with a bullet or a bomb?
I just thought you might want to reread this sentence on the definition of a toxic chemical: "Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause
If you say it's a physical effect causing the normal life process of walking to result in incapacitation, why are lead bullets not considered chemical weapons? I'd say a bullet piercing flesh is a very chemical action. Any good chemist could explain to you the atomic chemistry of why the lead bullet traveling at considerable speed can pierce a less rigid entity such as a human's skin and internal organs.
I can't believe they worked to contain the riots instead of working on their policies to actually give them reason not to revolt...
We have an ethical situation, here.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Cross 'slime skating' with the odour weapon just developed and civil disobedience is over. The new and improved 'Who me?' smell bomb (developed in WWII) is an admixture of burning flesh (or putrid), food gone bad and human waste. There's *so* much to be said for the sedentary, bubble boy existence of a geek.
heuristic algorithm seeks stochastic relationship
Yep. Those damn "rioters"...Always out protesting, like there's actually problems with the world. I say we need something stronger to use on them. I mean when women marched for suffrage, we did nothing, and look what happened...Now they work 48% of the jobs and control A WHOLE 10% OF THE WEALTH in this country!!!
Hell, when those blackamores went marching wanting rights in the 60's we even used firehouses and dogs trained to attack their testicles and they STILL got rights! I mean damn, we filled up the hospitals with blacks, vietnam peace protesters and womens rights advocates, and most lately WTO protestors...But the front of a Starbucks in Seattle still got smashed. How many of these first amendment yahoos do we have to maim before we really know that Starbucks storefronts are safe???
-The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
Only the U.S. opposes a ban on land slime.
There are four occurances of the word (or derivations) of incapacitate. Three of those occurances occur in the schedule guidelines and are the phrase "incapacitating toxicity." The other occurence is "incapacitation," and it is further restricted by the modifying phrase "chemical action on life process." The slime is clearly not toxic nor does it effect a life process.
Also look to Article II.9.d where it clearly states that "[a purpose] not prohibited under this convention" is "law enforcement including domestic riot control."
Whoa! I see a future for a new, even more violent version of Twister. :-)
i wasnt able to find anything that talked about the composition of this goop.
...thoughts anyone?
if it has an organic base, it might be inflammable. which means that if it caught fire, as it may well do incase of rioting, it would be nightmarish to get a bunch of slipping people to run to safety.
the complete absence of anything relating to its chemical composition sounds quite suspicious
Walking on ice certainly is possible.
:)
But walking on ice (or equivalent) when there are riot police trying to push you back?
Or perhaps trying to climb a wall which has been coated with slime.
Good career move by Flubber
Right -- all the peaceful people will slide around helplessly, while the rioters will wear metal-spiked soccer shoes and escape unscathed.
Great idea, folks. Reallygreat. :-(
I still think that Police waving Poo-on-a-Stick at people would be more effective.
After all,
Batons, tear gas, water cannons
- I'd just get pissed off.
But Poo-on-a-Stick?
I know I'd run away...
---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
Slippery is slippery. For crowds, for me, for you and for Marines too! The question is how a person(broken or not) will be removed from slime after he/she has slipped?? and who will do it?
:)
I would love to be around when the first time it will be tested
Voltaire: God is dead.
God: Voltaire is dead!
Another scenario: lubricant sprayed, protestor slips trying to throw molatov, fire spreads and people try and get away but...
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
If the police have non lethal weapons, it will simply encourage them to use them.
Example. In London the other day a domestic was ended by the police shooting the bloke with one of these anti-riot guns. It may well have been warranted but I think the precendent is dangerous.
I forsee the use of stun guns for giving a bit of lip back to officers. Peacefull protests will be broken up with whichever weapon they have in their arsenal.
Deleted
No mention of biodegradable, water is the dispersing agent, so it's not going to wash off.. How do they plan to clear all this gunk up having sprayed it over every horizontal and vertical surface in sight?!
Technology has consequences, and sometimes those consequences are awful. Take, for example, recent engineering advances in weapons design. It used to be that because of how much a gun weighed and how much kick it gave when you fired it, you probably had to be at least a teenager to use it. U.S. gun manufacturers saw a market opportunity, so they told their engineers to design guns that were simpler to maintain, less mass, and less kick. Engineers succeeded, through their earnest ingenuity and resourcefulness. And now the streets of Sierra Leone are full of 8-year-old children who have been pulled away from their families and forcefully recruited into fighting a civil war. Hooray for science!
I don't mean to say we should go back to living in caves, or to say that those engineers were evil people. But we shouldn't blindly accept everything in the name of progress. An advanced way of killing or incapacitating another human being doesn't seem like progress to me.
Do domain names matter?
I'd imagine golf cleats, soccer shoes, or strap-on crampons would be effective. So would a few ropes.
Aside from the sheer fright of such military weaponry being beta-tested on our citizens, I'm a little concerned about second order effects. Asphixiating bubbles? Does it melt or what happens if you are breathing this stuff at the bottom of a football-style pileup? Instant freezing on cold sidewalks? Heart attacks? Could people slide into traffic or babies fall into sewers? etc.
Also this could be a nasty transport mechanism for gel-capsules of other substances maybe irritants. Is there any chance this could be used frm a height like poorman's napalm?
This sickening line of thought launched by wondering what the protesters might do if they had some with them. It might be very nasty with a Moltov thrown on it, or mixed with gasoline or acetone. You couldn't just drop and roll, you can't run away, and it could be aspirated. A terrifying catastrophe waiting to happen.
I wonder how this stuff would fare against a good set of homemade insta-crampons? Hell, even against a good pair of second-hand soccer cleats?
Where there's tech, there's counter-tech.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Doesn't anyone find this ironic, coming from the republicans? considering the outright fraud of the last presidential election, they're going to need tons of this stuff. Slick is as slick does.....
-- Defenestrate Microsoft!
Gothemburg last summer. Burning the furniture of small cafeterias, looting small radio stores, smashing windows everywhere.
High ideals indeed. I have a lot of respect for real political workers defending the small individual and struggling for a better world. I have no respect at all for rioters proving their political intent to suppress any dissent along the principles that might makes right.
These principles of political suppression and might makes right, which they reveal by their actions, do not lead to the kind of world I want to live in.
Democracy and capitalism may have many severe flaws, but they also have important mechanisms for dealing with flaws. The rioters refuse to use these mechanisms and instead attack local cafeterias. How clever.
And in the process, in Gothemburg and elsewhere, they silenced thousands of legitimate political workers who had real, meaningful programs.
They do have the right to express their opinion. But not that way.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Every one will not be sliding all over the place. Sit down and nothing will happen to you, no harm done. Try to walk away and its on your own risk.
Pretty clever immobilization i'd say.
It might still be chemical warfare, but only in the sense of using chemicals. But then all warfare could be considered chemical.
This is not inhumane because you have a choice of not getting hurt...
---
There is always another choice!!!
Enig? Det alt for hot det smor!
The convention is about war, not riots.
It is recognised that riot control agents serve a use for police forces for that purpose alone.
IMHO, I would prefer to slip up on slime (a solely topical agent) than to be subject to tear gas (a topical AND systemic agent), or for that matter the 'bad smell' stuff that is being brewed, or sound that makes you s**t yourself.
I bet it washes clean out!
This comment was written with the intention to opt out of advertising.
There's a huge difference between defending the powerless and smashing up local cafeterias. There's a huge difference between purposeful political struggle and hooliganism.
The struggles that you mention are really important. The struggle to smash windows is not. Comparing the two as if they were equal is offensive.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
One word - cleats!
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
A really, really big slip and slide, c'mon!
If we don't make light of everything, we are just stumbling in the dark - Blank
... is a few voluptuous women stuck in a paddling pool with a huge tub of this stuff..
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story..."
By having come up with a plan for terrorists to strike fear into our hearts, cause havoc and mayhem and possibly killing people, you are in violation of several new federal laws!
You will be placed under arrest, put before a kangaroo court and never be heard from again.
Been nice to know you Mr. Gnovos.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
That sounds.. safe. On a more serious note (like broken bones are in someway funny) what does this do for democracy? "Protest against anything and we'll show you what will happen to people like you?" Broken bones. Sounds like the mafia. :)
rxvt, suse, vi, solaris, debian, java, c, feel the love. #unix@IRCnet, #gimp & #gnome@GIMPnet
Look, I discussed these things directly with the Black Block at Indymedia, shortly after Gothemburg. It was quite definitely not a case of ringers, not with the kind of passionate discussion that you get among those people to justify what they do. They have very strong principles and loads of political arguments. It is a political worldview. They believe it's Anarchism. It certainly isn't real Anarchism. Discussing with them was quite nightmarish because of their stong anti-democratic views.
They love referring to real heroes like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, admirable people who made real sacrifices, immensely significant sacrifices. But they themselves don't even dare show their faces and stand for their cause while demonstrating in democratic countries.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
If you are worried about people sitting behind desks condemning soldiers and civilians to death, worry about the politicians that start these wars. None of the wars the US has engaged in since WWII have had much justification in US "defense", nor have they been particularly effective.
theres not way this will ever take off. esp. not in the USA. Can you imagine the lawsuits people would me making if they fell on this stuff & slipped & broke some bones? May be they will need to put up some "Slippery when covered in non-toxic slime" signs on grass to prevent legal action.
You tried your best, & you failed miserably,
The lesson is:
Never Try
Whoever your orders SAY are the bad guys
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
This is an Olympic Sport waiting to happen, if I've ever seen one. :-)
Presumably Black Hawk Down would have been a far less bloody affair if Delta Force and the US Army Rangers had been able to spray this from helicopters in Mogadishu.
"E pur si muove!" - attributed to Galileo Galilei, 1564-1642
there was a variant of this in 2000ad (english comic) they had a miracle plastic called 'boing' if i recall correctly that the 200ad law enforcement used to coat protestors with as well. Wonder if they (the comic book) can claim credit for the idea? (kinda like bt claim the patent for hyperlinks) :)
perl -MIO::Socket -e 'IO::Socket::INET-new(PeerAddr="some.windoze.box:1
So how is this "non-hazardous"? Are they going to hand out safety harnesses to crowds before they get sprayed with slime?
The mass anti-corporate globalization protests over the past three years have seen the development of some fairly effective, DIY defense tactics against "non-lethal" crowd control measures.
Tear gas and pepper spray? Bandanna soaked with cider or vinegar on the low end, gas mask on the high end, full-coverage clothing. Gas masks are especially preferable if the riot troopers are especially teargas-happy.
Batons and rubber bullets? Shields, helmets, padding, and loads of backup.
I haven't learned of any reasonable defenses against taser attacks yet, and they have been used on occasion (I'm specifically thinking of a few incidents during the Ottawa G20/IMF/WB protests last November). Something would be needed to block the electrodes; hockey pads, perhaps? Sometimes, dogs will also be used (again, Ottawa G20), and there's just not much you can do when a well-trained Fido decides to gnaw on your leg. Again, padding, perhaps sports pads.
This stuff? Skis, high-traction footwear, maybe carry something to dissolve the slime. Perhaps sandbags might become the next big thing at protests?
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
That would be nice. :)
rxvt, suse, vi, solaris, debian, java, c, feel the love. #unix@IRCnet, #gimp & #gnome@GIMPnet
the police were tired of criminals giving us the slip, and wanted to get their own back?
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
What happens if this is swallowed?
I remember the issues with the STICKY foam, blocking of airways and prevents breathing etc...
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Imagine if people protesting outside of an abortion clinic have this kind of stuff. Some of those people wouldn't think twice about breaking someone else's bones, but want to stop abortion at all cost.
Bank robbers could use this to get away; a cop gets in your way, slime him/them and off you go, preferably in the opposite direction.
This stuff could be used in any type of chase, kind of hard to follow when you can't walk or run.
-- Dan
untill some fills a tub with this stuff and rents it out at an hourly rate hotel?
how about building a gauss rifle!!t s/gauss.h tml
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magne
perl -MIO::Socket -e 'IO::Socket::INET-new(PeerAddr="some.windoze.box:1
As a trombone player, this stuff would be excellent on the slide. Much better than the oils and stuff I currently use.
I wonder how long this stuff actually lasts, and if it gets tacky after a while...
T.
As everyone on /. is aware, all the demonstrators need to do is change their protest chants to not include the phrase "I don't know".
Capitalism has no mechanisms for dealing with its own flaws. The only thing that keeps capitalism from getting out of control is democracy.
Of course. Without democracy, capitalism in itself has no controlling feedback. Democracy is the control. Democracy is essential.
In the US the government is controlled by the corporations so democracy is no longer a check on capitalism.
Nothing is stopping us from having this discussion. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from creating real, effective, meaningful political movements that could effectively correct flaws. Not smash windows! Correct flaws! Nothing is stopping you people.
But you don't. And that's the problem in my view.
Somebody's got to do it! But who? Why not the people? Who are you waiting for?
Smashing windows will not make a Savior appear. The people must do it. From the bottom up. Through hard work. Blood, sweat and screaming running tears! Not some hero. Nobody but the people.
Definitely not the "media attention" that the so-called Anarchists so crave with their smashups, even though they complain about the evil media corporations.
If the media corporations are evil, then don't wait for the media to save you! Do it yourselves for goodness' sake!
I can also see another problem. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela made real sacrifices. The rioters don't even dare show their faces demonstrating in democratic countries. Their sympathisers don't even dare risk a few damn slashdot karma points showing their nick in discussions like this.
I realize that you don't see any importance in this. But it's really absolutely essential. Those who are not willing to stand for their views, wether it costs them some sacrifice or not, those cannot get political gains. It's not just that they don't deserve it. It simply isn't attainable.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
First off... getting slimed is damn sure better than getting a riot baton to the head (cops) or an M-16 bullet(USMC). I've treated both injuries, and neither are very nice.
The military wanted this research done for non-lethal stuff because our politicians, in their infinite wisdom, feel the need to use a combat force as police. Ie... haiti, croatia, somalia. Open up on a rioting village with a 50 cal. Your butt will be in front of congress so fast you couldn't believe it. Slime 'em with a big load of jizz', now the congress can take credit for appropriating bla bla bla bla.
For all of you who worry about it's use. The same things ring true use in the civilian world. It's not like every cop is going to have a hood mounted slime gun. Most likely the vehicles that carry the riot squads to the scene would be equipped with them. If the poop hits the fan, slime 'em and bag em, just like today minus the concussions from batons and fatalities from "rubber" bullets.
Breaking up a violent mob is not impinging on anyones first amendment rights. It is stopping them from being assholes.
Perhaps these riot cops should take a hint and figure out that to keep people from rioting, you just have to NOT PISS THEM OFF. These "non-lethal" weapons are pathetic jokes. If they want to keep people on the other side of something, green goo isn't the way, just build a tall strong fence (or two).
Riot-control gimmicks like these will only more severely hurt and/or piss off rioters, who will figure out clever ways around them (how about skiing across the goop while toting a spud launcher ?)
Last time we had a serious riot up here in Quebec, more than a few people were very severely injured, particularly one guy had his throat crushed (he is now mute and breathing through a surgically-created port in his neck) because of some dumb cop's point-blank rubber bullet shot. All this because of a bunch of rich fuckers meeting with leaders of the G7 to discuss how they're going to sell the planet to U.S.-based corporations.
If you're going to fuck your own citizens in masses, you'd better expect big riots. Green goo won't improve anything.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Neither of the links show me anything about tests, and I can't find anything looking around the site either. Does anyone have a link to the results of these fracture-fests, or do I have to just take it on faith? Marvita
Oh no, Ive been slimed :D Next up sticky goo, Stay Puff marshmallow man :D
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Whoa, those football riots are going to get a lot more interesting.
(that's soccer in the US)
'nuf said.
-josh
Is it just me, or has anyone related it to a weapon in Ultima's?
Astroglide Party!
We really need your help
http://www.gofundme.com/help-sherry
What happens when riots break out in wintery conditions, such as the riot in Salt Lake during the Olympics?
It freezes everything solid and there are a couple of hundred hypothermia cases to deal with at the local hospital...
Interesting possibilities...
Try running around in cleats (plastic, metal or otherwise) in an urban environment on concrete... you'd be better off trying your luck with the goo.
So you're a smart bastard and you bring a change of shoes with you... hehe, I'd love to see that, guy sprayed with goo, police closing in.. hold on a sec, lemme change my shoes here... oops, (starts sliding away from his packpack) plop! aaahhh, my mp3 player full of warez!
Anyway, I applaud anything non-lethal that can be used to control OUT of control crowds and rioters. It is a Good Thing(TM) to have options contrary to shooting or beating people when they are out of control.
This is humane and shows the great lengths we go to to try NOT to hurt/kill those among us would would destroy our property or create mayhem and in many cases cause the deaths of innocents (trampling, beating etc.).
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
Riots are typically started by the police.
My discussions with rioters showed that in Gothemburg last summer this was very clearly not the case.
Sure, the Black Block did whine a lot about police provocation, but it was very, very clear that they came to Gothemburg intent on rioting. Out of principle. The thrown rock is a Political Statement. Just listen to their arguments. It's very, very clear.
the powers that be want ruthless, violent psychopaths there to control the populace.
Control the populace? In this context the police are pawns. They have no more say in the general political directions of the country than any other voters. They are not your adversary. They control riots, not national political directions, nor corporations. Pawns. Forget about them.
The idea that the police provoke riots by repressing the crowd is pitiful. When the police tells you to stop, or to go that way, or whatever, then just do what they say and that's it. Going this street or the other street will not change the political directions of the country.
Do you realize that there are strong political forces that stand to gain a lot by the riots? You can't have a strong, purposeful, universally respected political movement of the people, respected so that everybody listens, if at the same time you have football-hooligan clowns smashing up the streets.
The broken windows costs pennies compared to the enormous gains that some interests have from the riots.
So if the police says stop, just stop. They're not your adversary.
The propaganda of the so-called Anarchists is rife with vested interests of those who profit by two things: The riots, and the national protectionsm that holds down the economies of the developing countries. (Keep the countries from trading so they stay poor, just like a guy who can't find a job stays poor. It's almost exactly the same thing.)
No, it's not a conspiracy. I don't believe in conspiracies. It's just a few books, and after that simple human gullibility. It's really very, very sad.
Just open your eyes. Just listen to what they say.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
I'm glad that this research is being done! So what, the government is trying to handle riots in a safer, better way. If anything, this will encourage peaceful protests and deter harmful ones.
They aren't "silencing critics" they're protecting violent mobs from themselves and the police who deal withthem, all to save *you* personal and finacial harm.
It doesn't matter what your politics are, if you're violent, you deserve to face the consequences. Personally, being slimed wouldn't be as bad as bullets.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
Beats the crap out of the beauty and the beast. Reserve your tickets now!
"...in fact, had they not been safety-harnessed during the tests, many would have broken bones."
Wouldn't this open the door to police brutality lawsuits? Let's say there were 95% peaceful demonstrators and 5% non-peaceful demonstrators. Police slim the crowd and 20% of the crowd sufferes broken bones just screams class-action. What about the first time someone dies? Is it the riot participants fault?
find it here
This reminds me of some great fun I had as a small child. We took a can of green slime (some of you may remember its glory barely contained in those little plastic garbage cans) and decided it would be fun to squish it out onto the carport.
I don't remember the details of this event progressing to the point of wetting down the entire carport floor and sliding across it, but the effect was to destroy any frictive capacity of the concrete. This was incredibly fun until dad arrived from work that day and attempted to park his car.
Does such a thing even exist?
People will have ingenious methods of counteracting this once it has been deployed once or twice!
The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
Wont be a problem for me when my new Segway arrives!
Wouldn't KY mixed with tree sap do the same thing?
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Microwave pain devices, crowd stunners, directed painful noise producers, movement inhibitors, etc.
What's happening to our right to protest? Didn't we used to have a voice?
the simple definition you gave would also outlaw Mace, Pepper spray, and other devices commonly used by police forces.
The police are not millitary and therefore are not bound by chemical warfare / geneva convention and other such "international laws".
Thus the police can use tear gas etc but the army can't.
As an example, look at the arguments surounding camp x-ray prisoners in deciding wheather they are civilians or millitary and thus, the conditions in which they can be held.
(Not that the average National Enquirer reader gives a damn of course)
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
The Segway!
I'll just be sure to wear my golf cleats.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
"Not that I know of Rus.
Going for a new amateur-land speed record, Clark W. Griswold, Jr. ! Remember kids; don't try this at home, I AM a professional."-- Nat'l Lampoon's Christmas Vacation
First thing I thought of when I read this article. =]
--Chemguru
But with this slippery slim, you are free to move your muscles as much as you like, it just won't be very effective because the surface you are on isn't being particularly responsive. Regardless, you still aren't incapacitated. You can still move - you just might end up falling a lot.
It could be pretty effective, but I would worry about the flamibility and environmental impact of the slime. How does this stuff react if they throw a molitoff-cocktail on it? If they can get it to burn it's no good and I would not want to stop a riot by creating a haz-mat spill.
What they really should do, is all riots could be simulated by a computer. The computer would choose 'fatalities' in the riot, and then the people chosen could report to disintegration chambers. Certainly this is a good solution.
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Seems like your everyday metalic or otherwise cleat / golf shoe would do just nicely. So I propose a technological improvement, which by the way I should patent :D
:D
Combine this with the stank smells they invented about 1 year ago.
Now not only can you not move, but you stank too. Now thats a deterrent
I can't help but notice that isn't really covered. Do you want to be this guy? This stuff is designed to not only eliminate friction, but also to apparently stick to non-coated surfaces and spread. I can see it now. :::: Scene- Angry Mob writhing on the ground in slime. A man stands with a mob and bucket, with his name, "Earl" on his shirt ::::
Voice Over: Not going anywhere for a while?
Never confuse volume with power.
Nickelodeon has been testing this stuff for YEARS.
I want this stuff for my Slip & Slide!!!
nWo 4 Life
A slime, foam or other chemical solution that would be easy to mix and deploy in situ may be lighter in weight and more effective than ball bearings. For example, a slipperly substance that gelled itself over a large area may be more effective than an equal weight of ball bearings deployed over a marching surface. The slime could also have the additional benefit of being difficult to see, or being very visible and deployable in letter or glyph forms, or of smelling very bad or being inflammable.
This slime stuff could be the start of something very interesting.
This is a proven technology. Remember in Goonies, this was the stuff in Data's slick shoes invention that he used to sidetrack the Fratelli brothers temporarily.
It's great when all of lifes new innovations come from classic 80's movies...
"Instant banana peel" has been around since 1972.
It was used a couple of times in anti-Vietnam war rallies/riots (definitions depend on who you talk to). The rally/riot organizers loathed it -- it turned their nice focused, angry gathering into a party. The stuff is fun.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
...by "agent provocateurs", do you mean "average British soccer fans"?
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
What *really* makes me nervous about "spraying slime on the lawn"? They *say* it's nonhazardous, but do we really want this stuff in our drinking water? They can say it's safe all they life, but the Romans had lead in their aqueducts, we sprayed DDT on *everything*, PCBs were safe, MSG is harmless...you get the idea.
I like how, for the average Slashbot, "big corporation" automatically equates to "big evil corporation." So much for objectivity...
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
where the younger Pete and Pit-stain race down the school hallways by pouring floor wax on themselves.
But seriously, how are the cops going to arrest people if they're covered in greased owl-shit?
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
Cities have legal panels that advise them and take care of cases brought against the city by people who did something like fall on the subway etc. I could see this as a use in a chase scenario or other such circumstance but not with a large mass of people, say at a concert. An average Concert crowd of 30,000 or so gets blanketed with a slippery gel.... can you say stampede, trampled, or better yet, lawsuit? You can mop a floor in a grocery shop, mark it clearly with yellow "wet floor" signs and still end up paying some idiot money. I hope they're smarter than this idea implies.
Running out of beer at the Budweiser tent.
What they need to do is to test this in the latest release of State of Emergency. Nothing like a good numerical simulation to figure out if something will work. That way, I can see whether my molotov cocktails, hand grenades, etc. will be compatible Oh, plus I can pee on the slime.
Did I read that right? Its so slippery that they could have seriously injured themselves? What a great way to stop a riot, but them all in the hospital.
Based on the press release, the slime is a modified polyacryamide. This page has a good primer on polymers and some of their chemical properties. It looks like this slime will be most useful in the desert, since rioters can wash it off with *lots* of water. Apparently, salt water woud works even better. I knew that there was some reason for taking chemistry in high school. Along with the second amendment, a widely educated electroate is the best defense of democracy.
I was just re-reading an old Jerry Pournelle novel (Prince of Mercenaries, a novel of Falkenberg's Legion) in which just such a slippery chemical spraw was used for crowd control while one of the main characters was in the crowd.
I find it somewhat ironic that 2 days later I'm reading about the same thing in the real world.
As life borrows yet another idea from the world of science fiction.
Sanity is a sandbox. I prefer the swings.
Ha, we Canadians already walk on slippery black ice and hockey rinks, give us your worst slime! We laugh!
I wanna try the stuff out! Lets get a riot together once they deploy this stuff!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
If you had posted using your ID I might have mod'ed you as funny.
I love the way they give important sounding names to things that aren't. "mobility denial system" sounds like something Microsoft would patent to stop people moving software. It goes with things like "digital rights management (we lock up your data)" and "collateral damage (oops, we blew up a red cross centre)"
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
No need to worry about the hospital bills, all the protesters already demonstrated for socialized healthcare.
You know what?
Anti-globalization protest degenerates into mass orgy as cops deploy KY-Jelly on rioters.
Hmmm... maybe I should start going to protests.
-cbare
....better slime them!! Or, the other way around...The slime aint working, better gas them! While a mob being gassed or slimed is in itself pretty funny, being slimed and gassed at the same time is down-right hilarious! Humm... first you slime-em, then you gas-em, then you put on your special shoes, get in there and night-stickem!
How the hell do you break bones by falling down ON A LAWN?
In my younger days I took many a spill upon the grass and dirt, and I never even broke a pinky.
During the primaries of both parties last election the police sought to make protesters irrelevant by designating them to dedicated protest zones, or the so called "Free speach zones" which were usually some parkinglot several blocks away from the convention.
Protesters kept out in such a way would be ignored by the media and would not be seen by the politicians and people they are trying to reach.
The majority of WRO protests have been peaceful, it is just that the media prefers to show destructive behaviour by few people. Protesters in Seattle accused undercover police for creating most of the destruction.
Come ON... you were ALL thinking it.
;)
Or if you weren't, you certainly are now
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I understand the Marines found that the best form of crowd control was a laser designator. The guy with a big bright red dot on his forehead kept very still, and so did his buddies.
Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
I mean, tear gas is bad and not used often, but after a few hours, you're all back to normal.
...
...).
[] Once you're downwind of twenty-plus canisters, things start getting iffy. [] Numerous women reported early periods after the April 2001 Quebec City protests
Not to mention that tear gas scars the breathing passages, leading to lifelong lung problems and asthma, and disolves in the body fat, re-emerging throughout life to make you sick whenever you lose weight. Long-term irritants promote cancer, infectious diseases, autoimmune reactions (such as arthritis, Grave's syndrome, Lupus,
Tear gas in enclosed spaces where people can't escape before they drown in their own mucus is deadly. That's why it's forbidden in warfare for trying to get people out of caves and tunnels.
Tear gas tends to kill small children, both because they're more susceptable for several reasons and because masks, if available, won't fit well enough to keep it out.
Tear gas plus fire equals cyanide gas.
Aerosol teargas projectors leave the air filled with finely divided dust particles, which burn well enough (ala dust explosions) to superheat a large volume of air (rendering the area lethal) and ignite flammable materials at multiple points within it. The solvent used is also flammable, making its use near sources of ignition such as pilot lights or lanterns even more problematic. Tear gas projectiles use a flare to vaporize and disperse the solid form. Using the first (fuel) followed by the second (igniter) creates a firebomb.
If the tanks carrying the injectors have already knocked down the stairs (trapping people upstairs), collapsed the tunnels (trapping them in the underground "safe room"), collapsed walls (trapping them even on the first floor), and opened the building to the wind (to blow up the fire) you end up with a lot of drowned children, poisoned adults, and incinerated bodies. Whether done deliberately or accidentally, such a site becomes a death camp, but much more efficient than any in World War II.
Which is apparently what happened at Waco.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I have an idea. Put this stuff on a long sheet of plastic. Then let kids take running jumps at it.
So how is this "non-hazardous"? Are they going to hand out safety harnesses to crowds before they get sprayed with slime?
"Liquid banana peel" - either this or another one - was invented in the late '60s (as a water-cannon additive) and rejected at that time.
Test subjects wearing helmets and knee/elbow pads were shown in promos, but even some of them were injured.
Imagine a crowd down, many with compound fractures, and the paramedics trying to fish them out and patch them up before they bleed to death.
Then imagine the paramedics too slippery to help - or to go help anyone else.
Then imagine the floor of the emergency room with slick spots from stuff transferred from patients.
Then imagine it during a city-wide riot, with burning and looting.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
On televison. It looks like to be somewhere about the consistency of that green slime toy or the goop on canned ham. The spray it on pretty thick, even on grass, and the guy in the middle couldnt move. He could stand up, sor of, but couldnt get any traction to even move on grass. And he fell over a LOT.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Great, now along with DOS (denial of service) attacks, we have DOM (Denial of Mobility) attacks.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
So if we see the goo being deployed, we all run in the direction of those applying it, then "slip 'n' slide" at them at great speed. This could be just as devastating on the opposition as a stampede.
So we go from an annoying crowd to thousands of people hurtling through the town upwards of 20 MPH, especially on a downhill. It's like a giant shotgun blast of people.
And the resulting news coverage, if the media doesn't just stay silent about it like it obediently always does, is that the cops are causing all these people to skid uncontrollably to their inevitable death on impact of a solid object.
I don't think this was very well thought out, at least not in the context of "how can a crowd use this to their advantage."
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
Everyone here expects that the slime be used directly on a rioting crowd, preventing their dispersal. Use a little non-linear thinking, people!
The slime can be used as an area-denial tool, to prevent rioters from reaching certain areas, and to channel them to places where they can be better controlled.
Wonder how similar this slime is to the slime on Nickalodean! :-)
In a world where corporation are suing people for stating there opinion, how can someone geet attention to there cause?
You are correct in your post, but if people keep getting pushed around for there opinions, and newspaper,ISPs and Magazines keep getting sued for publishing other peoples opinions, breaking windows may be are only course.
It would be nice if it never gets to tnat point, but if things don't change within 5 years, that WILL be are only recourse.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
sidewalk denial of service attack just sounds cool.
Mobility denial system? Give me a break... if this stuff is as indeed as slick as stated, then it would be quite easy to become mobile over it.
Simply back up and run at it, and jump at the ground over the area of application. You'd slide an idefinate distance, and you'd probably not have to worry about cuts and scrapes - after all, such hurtful items would cause friction, which would provide traction, the very thing this lube cancels out.
I wonder if this stuff will be sold at pharmasuticals near the KY in coming years.
I wonder what the legal implications of this stuff would be - you'd likely get many people sueing the government or police forces for injuries inflicted. It would probably insight the mobs even more, and thus cause the participants to turn upon each other. I'd think something like a spray-on mellowing agent (pot/E in a can? [sic]) would be much more effective... you'd have people making love in the streets... imagine the publicity... "LA Riot turns into hot kinky orgy"... then again, this could probably happen with the lube.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
In the US the government is controlled by the corporations so democracy is no longer a check on capitalism.
Nothing is stopping us from having this discussion.
You completely fail to address the point. Yes it's true that nothing is stopping us from having this discussion, but this discussion is not where power is created or democracy is wielded.
Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from creating real, effective, meaningful political movements that could effectively correct flaws.
Well, nothing other than police who don't discriminate between violent and non-violent protestors, an apathetic electorate who feels they have no power to make change, a corporate-government system that sees no point in educating people to the fact that they can effect change, a corporate system that requires the vast majority of people to spend the majority of their energy and time just working to survive (never mind 'get ahead') so leaving no time for activism, a well-funded two-party system that is supported by media conglomerates who typically wave third party concerns to the side (eg, televised debates where third party candidates aren't even invited), laws that increasingly muzzle free speech when it is critical of the corporations, electoral finance funding laws that benefit law-makers and corporations far more than the democratic citizen, an economic system that places more value on paper-profit than real people and very often encourages the former at the expense of the latter, a judicial system where money can purchase increased time to re-try the cases, a judicial system that considers corporations to have all the rights of personhood while having none of the duties, and in short, an entire system devoted to the idea that money=power, as opposed to the idea that voices=power, which is the corner-stone of democracy.
I'm not belittling your comment that we must stand for our views, you're absolutely right and there is nothing more important. But really, to say that there is nothing stopping people from having their views become power is ignoring the realities of the system currently in place and maintained by those who derive their power from that system.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
..Or Aquaglide.. The ultimate lube is here!
I can have an opinion, tell all my friends about, put it in a book, hold meetings about it, etc, etc and not go to jail. What I can't do is go down to the statehouse and threaten to burn it down, or disrupt government ot business.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
When I have to fight a war do you expect me to carry a inferior weapon because of 8 year olds in Sierra Leone? Fuck 'em. They can fight all the civil wars they damn please but I will only trust my life to the best weapon engineering can give me.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
This is something the city of Vancouver would be interested in. They don't like people out on the streets at New Years or any other time. Spray some of the goo on the streets beforehand and you can force everyone into the high society pay events instead.
It's so sad to see New Years celebrations in downtown cores throughout the world yet Vancouver forces everyone to go to some crappy pay event.
Ok, enough off-topic ranting.
The problem isn't that rioting people need to be controlled. The problem is how to not give people a reason to riot. If you simply prevent people from rioting, won't the social issues these people are upset over be expressed in other means?
You stop people from rioting and they will simply turn to blowing up buildings, and killing leaders. Our government spending our money to find ways to control citizens helps neither the government (which is made up of citizens) nor the populace itself.
People rioted in the past (and still in the present) over situations where race and class have held down a group of people to the point where members of the group could only express themselves in rage. By denying these people a voice, or more importantly, our ears towards their concerns, there is no way for them to express themselves other than destruction.
Today race and class are still issues, and always will be. But now we are also dealing with the fact that corporations are being treated as citizens, citizens with voices that are louder than the rest of us. That corporations (which, if you look at them like citizens) are a minority compared to the rest of us, and that they are deciding the way the whole will be treated will turn upon them. Oppressing the whole of the country with their copyright laws, ownership of ideas, and control over our media will create waves of anger among the populace that will one day be expressed if not in riots, them some other form of violent destruction.
Why can't our law makers ever listen to the people themselves? This seems like the sad fate of our democracy.
Rofgile
The police are not military and therefore are not bound by chemical warfare / Geneva convention and other such "international laws".
While I would be inclined to agree with you I can't. The OPCW does not ban the use of these chemicals in warfare; it bans the PRODUCTION of these chemicals. And it really makes no distinction of military vs. civil police. Being ex-military I would want to agree with you, but the wording on OPCW is not a use ban, it is a production ban. The cops are allowed to use it, but besides for an exemption for very small quantities they wouldn't be able to get any made.
Now as someone else pointed the original posters definition was flawed, OPCW is geared at chemicals the halt a person thru biological reactions not thru pure immobilization so really this all is mute.
iRepairIT - iPhone, Mac, & PC Repair
Get off my lawn.
Oh, so if I use sensible (& nonviolent) countermeasures to protect myself from police intent on denying my right to peaceful assembly, I'm a "hooligan"? I don't think so. The police are rapidly becoming the shock troops for a corporate-plutocratic society, just like they used to be the shock troops for an apartheid one in the American south. They'll continue to develop technological means of denying your civil rights, just like they used fire hoses and dogs on marching African-Americans back in the dark days of the civil rights movement. We can't take that "lying down" (or sitting on our asses in slippery goo as the case may be).
Freedom: "I won't!"
After all, they're used to slippery conditions.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
They should call it "Jack-Valenti-In-A-Can".
Southwest Research Institute (press release )developed a non-hazardous chemical spray system that spreads a highly slippery, viscous gel
Soccer mom returns home.
Husband: Why.. Have you been sleeping with another man!?
Wife (duly): No, I was protesting against computer games.
Husband: That's it. We're divorced.
mogorific carpentry experiments
"Sidewalk denial of surface attack"
gee I crack myself up...
What is your Slash Rating?
Yes it's true that nothing is stopping us from having this discussion, but this discussion is not where power is created or democracy is wielded.
Really? Then who gives the corporations power by buying their merchandise?
[I said that nothing is stopping you from creating effective political organizations. You replied] Well, nothing other than police who don't discriminate between violent and non-violent protestors
What? Are you still waiting for others to do things for you? Are you now waiting for the police to come over on your side?
If the police don't fulfill your expectations, then don't wait for them to change until they fulfill your expectations! Accept that they are the way they are! Don't wait and don't complain! Accept that you have this problem, deal with it, and work around it!
an apathetic electorate who feels they have no power to make change
Now that's more like it! Here you have identified a key problem. If we can assume that this is really true (if), we just might have here a case of people getting what they deserve. The price of liberty is not eternal TV.
And what are you doing about this problem? Where are your printing presses and radio stations? Yes, your things. Not the corporate media of course, if they are so evil.
a corporate-government system that sees no point in educating people to the fact that they can effect change
Are you waiting for this evil corporate-government system to change for your sake?
a corporate system that requires the vast majority of people to spend the majority of their energy and time just working to survive (never mind 'get ahead') so leaving no time for activism
This problem has always been far, far more severe than it is now. Look at any agrarian society. Read history. True, the current pressures are ridiculous considering that they are hardly necessary today and that they cost more than they give.
But the greed that drives this seems to be human nature. Lots of people get themselves more stressful work of their own free will.
Are you waiting for this evil to be so kind and disappear of its own accord? Or are you doing something?
I hope you are not arguing that smashing windows is going to solve this problem for you.
a well-funded two-party system that is supported by media conglomerates who typically wave third party concerns to the side (eg, televised debates where third party candidates aren't even invited),
So? Why do you bring this up? I don't see you suggesting ways to work around it.
Are you hoping that you will be happier if and when they change their ways on their own accord?
laws that increasingly muzzle free speech when it is critical of the corporations
If I recall correctly they silenced black people not very long ago. In very cruel ways. Are you telling me it's worse now?
Okay, if it's so bad, then where's your printing press? Where's your radio station? Where's your organization of a few hundred people taking their own destiny in their own hands?
electoral finance funding laws that benefit law-makers and corporations far more than the democratic citizen
Yes, here we probably agree. This is bad.
So what are you doing about it? Yes, you. I'm a Swede. I can't meddle in those affairs. But what are you doing?
an economic system that places more value on paper-profit than real people and very often encourages the former at the expense of the latter
And what are you doing to make the situation better?
a judicial system where money can purchase increased time to re-try the cases, a judicial system that considers corporations to have all the rights of personhood while having none of the duties
That sounds bad. And what are you doing about it?
and in short, an entire system devoted to the idea that money=power, as opposed to the idea that voices=power, which is the corner-stone of democracy.
Okay, so now we have a complex and difficult set of problems outlined and described. Not agreed upon, but let's leave that aside, let's just say that these are the points.
Okay. And what happens now? What measures are you counting on to work around these problems? What measures are you hoping will let you make things better and vanquish the problems? What's your plan?
I hope your plan isn't getting the evil media over to your side by smashing windows.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
anyone ever heard of CRAMPONS? Cleats? Ski poles?
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
Pretty much everyone is allergic to bullets.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Slippery slime + BIG parking lot + car. It sounds like one hell of a ride to me. This could have high entertainment value.
t'nera semordnilap
If you're protesting, what's not being able to move going to do? You'll still be there to yell "Hell no we won't go." And if this gel were on you, you couldn't go, even if you wanted to!
Yes, you have the right to protest (in the US) and all that. But, many protests of late are actually riots in disguise (especially those WTO "protests").
Too big to fail? Does that make me to small to succeed?
I'm sorry if my recent reply came across as disrespectful. If it did (I'm not sure), then I really didn't mean it that way. I accidentally pressed submit just as I was starting to polish the sharp edges. That accidental submit is also the reason why it became so long-winded and repetitive.
In spite of this length, one thing at the end is missing: I'm not saying that all this is easy. I wouldn't even say it's feasible. I don't know if it is. What I'm saying is that I don't see any real, purposeful, effective political struggle. Smashing windows isn't it. On the contrary, smashing windows damages the cause and counteracts any people who struggle for real.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
This stuff would remove all directional control that aircraft had: in the event of even a slight crosswind on takeoff, it'd end up sliding off the tarmac and most likely trashing the undercarriage . . .
Water, snow and ice can all be made to have minimal resistance in one direction, but very high resistance perpendicular to that direction - it's a completely different matter to this goo.
himi
My very own DeCSS mirror.
...demand that each can sold is bundled with a big yellow 'caution slippery surface' safety sign. Clever resellers bundle a trolley with the above kit to ensure freedom of movement, as stipulated by the gazillionth amendment.
Use The Source, Luke!
Protesters look like hippies, but they're not dumb. I'm sure that they would figure out a strategy for dealing with the goo. For example: as soon as your're slimed, get down on your stomach, and pull yourself forward by planting a sharp object into the ground and pulling yourself forward. Then, you realize you're drunk, high, slimy and prone with a bunch of drunk, high hippy chicks you don't know. Hmmm. I know what would be on my mind right about then.
You can be sure that a police-lubricated orgy for peace would get into the news. Plus, now let's be serious, it would be a lot of fun!
Having said that, just because this stuff causes an ice-like effect for people trying to walk on it doesn't mean it has other properties of ice. Traditionally, it has been believed that skating on ice causes, either due to friction or more often pressure, the surface to slightly melt and re-freeze, thus creating a channel for the blade. More recent theories have focused on the vibration patterns of the surface of ice: http://www.exploratorium.edu/hockey/skating1.html
And if you're thinking about roller skating, what makes you think that you'll have any more luck than the car tire that just spins on this stuff?
* the adult protestors disappear only to be followed by a bunch of riotous kids slipping and sliding on the slime for fun *
eTrade SUCKS
They don't want to say this because it's not dramatic enough, but when you have someone or an organization (such as the WTO) that is getting used to the fact that it is in charge of certain things, and wants to assert and maintain that authority, having service denied -- by having protestors block delegates entering and exiting a convention center -- is a huge concern. In fact, during Seattle, some reputable news sources reported that third world delegates who were bullied into accepting the WTO's plans spoke out because the protestors provided a critical mass of opposition. None of the relatively small-time window breaking, the looting, the smashing stuff up really helped this -- but the denial of service was key.
Weapons like this help ensure that corporate america always gets served.
I have never seen a peaceful demonstration. 3 people start one, don't do a whole hell of a lot, and then 5,000 shitheads end up gathering to break things. Then the "peaceful" minority bitch and moan that they were being peaceful and shouldn't have gotten tear gas shot at them, or bullets, or whatever the hell happened.
Please, let me know when a truly peaceful demonstration is happening so I can go and videotape the thing, and mark that day on a calendar and in a history book.
~D
Get a run up, and start sliding! You won't be able to stop until you get to the other side!. Then when you get to the other side, they won't be able to handle you! Perhaps they can throw you back for another round... Bring it on.
sidewalks up north where i grew up are often covered with ice, and if you watch a busy sidewalk you will see people fall (hard) every few minutes. pretty much all of them except a few seniors (who should have been riding in a Rascal anyway) get back up with a sheepish grin and a sore ass.
So why would this stuff be any different? Especially since many surfaces are less painful to fall on than ice. I highly doubt there would be any "broken bones" and people can crawl across any slippery surface if they are careful.
In a world where corporation are suing people for stating there opinion, how can someone geet attention to there cause?
Maybe like people do in a world where dissent means entire villages get gassed? (Careful, very grisly photos.) Or maybe like they did in a world where dissenters got rounded up in a stadium and shot? Or where they get stoned to the death, or where they get whipped to death, or where they get hanged... No need to go on.
Please read your quote once again -- you'll discover something important:
In a world where corporation are suing people for stating there opinion, how can someone geet attention to there cause?
You are taking the standpoint that you want your adversary to be kind enough to stop suing you. Don't. They won't. Accept that this is the situation you have. Deal with it. Work around it.
You ask how to do this? I'm sorry, you must explore this by yourself. If you don't have the stamina to do this simple exploration, where would you find the stamina to go through the actual struggle?
if people keep getting pushed around for there opinions,
Name one country where this has not happened.
and newspaper,ISPs and Magazines keep getting sued for publishing other peoples opinions,
Deal with it.
breaking windows may be are only course.
How can it be a course when it doesn't accomplish anything?
Maybe there is a fundamental difference between American and European political work. From time to time I read with great astonishment about how American workers when they are downsized or fired suddenly find themselves locked out of their workplace, unable to enter. Here in Sweden that's utterly impossible, absolutely unthinkable. You get ample warning, several weeks at least, months when possible. You get a little coffee-break party with cake and short speeches. You get a present or two from your colleagues and another from the company -- nothing fancy usually but it's something to remember them by. Often you get things like job-search courses to help you on your way.
Just getting locked out is utterly impossible. I don't know if it's against the law but it seems likely.
And when I've disagreed with a boss I've always made it very, very clear. My current boss knows fully well how clueless I consider some of his decisions.
Yet yours is the land of the free.
Why are we so much stronger than you before our bosses and employers? Could it be because we expect political struggle to be hard and painful work that requires significant risks and endless patience? Whereas you seem to expect something like a baseball match: A short rush of adrenalin throwing rocks and after that, somehow, things will be magically solved.
Adrenalin rushes don't have that effect.
Unless you change your tactics you just won't get anywhere.
Name me one people that attained its freedom by smashing windows.
(Goodness, am I getting long-winded here. Somebody really pushed me a button...)
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
I dont know if everyone got it on this article, so I posted a screenshot:
I know this is probably considered off-topic, but it needs to be said somewhere. If I continue to get such obtrusive advertisements on slashdot, I will boycott the site as I have many other news sites. I'm sure many others will do the same.
Glenn
The Smrt way to trade CFDs on the ASX
Okay. And what happens now? What measures are you counting on to work around these problems? What measures are you hoping will let you make things better and vanquish the problems? What's your plan?
I hope your plan isn't getting the evil media over to your side by smashing windows.
Obviously I'm not being clear. Let's use analogy.
The citizenry has been deafened by media that shout down voices arguing for change, hamstrung by a corporate/judicial/governmental system that primarily values money rather than people, and tied into this system by economic pressures felt only by those who do not maintain the system.
So we're deaf, hamstrung, and tied into it, and your response from across the waters is,
"Wow, sounds pretty bad. So what are you going to do about it? Just make sure it doesn't involve hitting anyone." Can you make any other suggestions?
Perhaps we should boycott the corporations and.. uh.. starve. Good plan.
Perhaps we should petition the government to stop taking money from corporations. At which point they realize if they don't take money, they can't campaign, and if they can't campaign, they lose. The person who takes the money wins unless we manage to inform and convince more than 50% of the voters.
Aha! So we should inform the voters, gather groups.. except for that we need the media, which by and large aren't interested in the story as it works against their interests. Okay, we need to get our own media - except that media is expensive to produce for a large audience, and more than 50% of the voters is definitely a large audience, especially when we need to convince them in spite of the efforts of the much better funded, better established media institution.
Aha! We need money then.. except to do that very well we need to start up a corporation.. at which point, in order to survive/compete with those corporations which are taking advantage of/depend upon the system, we'll need to take advantage of/depend upon the current system as well, which means that fighting the system is the best way to defeat our own goal of.. well.. fighting the system.
So now you tell me, what can we do about it? But not in your idealistic world where everybody is a fully aware and active citizen, but in the real world where things cost money. Where people work for a living, get home dog-tired, want to eat, sleep, and go to bed, and not have to deal with these bigger issues tonight cause they have to worry about getting the utilities paid first.
Does breaking store windows do a lot? Probably not. Does it do more than not breaking store windows? You tell me.. when did this issue really start to hit the general consciousness of the population? When the violence happened here at home.
There was a revolution in 1776 about this exact kind of thing. It was bloody, it was violent, and the saddest part is, it was necessary as it was the only means that the system didn't have under control. What is most frightening is that these days, we've gotten a lot better at controlling those means as well.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
can you imagine trying to fire an AK-47 on something like that? It'd be the ice capades in 7.62mm Worth watching, no doubt.
Just because you're classified as paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you.
well said.. but just to add on to your quote.. there is a friend of mine at college who says something similar... give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him to fish and he eats until the river runs dry or is too polluted to sustain life. Teach him to organize, and he'll conquer any obstacle is society. something along those lines anyway.. sorry if i flubbed it!
I recall a book about a skate-boarding heroine who had to dodge police armed with "Loogey Guns" that stuck to targets, rendering them immobile. This stuff sounds like a couple of viscosity levels from the same goop.
Wait'll they develop Heilein's Tanglefoot Web!
Remember when Marvel decided that Spiderman's web stuff decomposes in hours?
What about this stuff? Or will there be semi-truck-tanker spills on the freeway; instead of black oil covered mussed up birds, we'll have green goo covered mussed up birds...?
mark
ISTR that the one incendiary-type gas canister found on the premises was fired hours before the fire broke out. And on top of this, many of the dead were found shot to death (including Koresh himself).
While you won't have any trouble showing that the tactics of the government were ridiculous (if they wanted Koresh they could have arrested him when he went into town, alone), there is nothing to support the case that the tear gas caused the fires. The evidence proves that the Davidians committed suicide, as their apocalyptic theology demanded that they die; the government's stupidity was in pushing them in ways all but guaranteed to make them do it.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
So we're deaf, hamstrung, and tied into it, and your response from across the waters is, "Wow, sounds pretty bad. So what are you going to do about it? Just make sure it doesn't involve hitting anyone."
No, I did not say that you shouldn't hit anyone. I could very well have said that, but so far, in this discussion, that has not been my point.
My point is rather that you're hitting the wrong target. Your intent is to hurt Mr Powerful and help Ms Worker. Instead you are helping Mr Powerful and hurting Ms Worker.
Your aim is off. You're shooting the good guys. You're elevating the powerful. You're stepping on the downtrodden.
This is very serious. It's deeply disturbing. The world does not need yet another political movement elevating the powerful and stepping on the downtrodden.
Clearly it's all unintentional. Clearly it's not what you want. You need to watch what is happening. You need to correct your aim. Stop causing trauma and economic ruin to the downtrodden and mosquito stings to the banks.
So now you tell me, what can we do about it? But not in your idealistic world where everybody is a fully aware and active citizen, but in the real world where things cost money. Where people work for a living, get home dog-tired, want to eat, sleep, and go to bed, and not have to deal with these bigger issues tonight cause they have to worry about getting the utilities paid first.
Very well put.
I think I can give you some very useful pointers. But we're talking about changing the world. We're talking about changing some of the deeply entrenched customs and world-views of a nation. This isn't something you outline in a few paragraphs, it's material for many, many books, for entire libraries.
If these things were easy we wouldn't have billions of people around the world starving and suffering. If they were as easy as writing a few books or smashing some windows, it would have been done that way, long ago, very long ago. Trust me, if it could be done by smashing windows it would have been done that way.
First, the basics. Basically there are two different ways to change the fundamental customary behaviors of an entire nation. One is to convince people, get the people over on your side, gradually sway them to embrace your visions and ideas, so that the people will make them real. The other way is to install a dictatorship were you suppress the people of the nation forcing them to act the way you want against their will.
Such dictatorship is probably impossible in the US. Even if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that democracy in the US is as compromised as you say, still it has strong, resilient defences against that kind of dictatorship. People in the US are always quoting things like "The cost of liberty is eternal vigilance." A significant proportion of the people are very wary of government and authorities. That kind of dictatorship just wouldn't be tolerated. So, even if your goal were a dictatorship, and you somehow had complete control over the army, you couldn't just take over.
So, the remaining alternative is to somehow sway the people.
To see how nations can be swayed, look at historical precedent, look at what others have done before you. Not to imitate completely, because we live in different times and need different solutions. Not to imitate but to learn, to understand how these things work. And of course to pick some good ideas and avoid some bad mistakes.
Look very carefully at the negative consequences that many, many attempts have had. It's quite amazing how many good intentions have led to disastrous results. There are many, many hellish examples from all over the world, past and present.
I'll give you an example of how you can look at a historical precedent. Take the political movements in Europe in the late sixties and the seventies. In retrospect there was a lot of silliness going on, but there were also quite a lot of very good things, very useful. Europe is much more interesting than the US when you look at this period, because Europe was much more politically serious, purposeful and determined. In the US this movement was much more dreamily inclined, much more hippie, flower power, big happy family, "if we'll just love everybody then everybody will be happy."
As I've mentioned, in Europe we tend to accept that political work is lots and lots of hard work.
In that period a very strong general consensus spread over Europe that you had to be wary of the people in power, that all political work must be for the good of the people. It was also taken for granted that political movements can and must have a strong influence on those in power. With this in mind, people studied, learned, discussed, and posed lots of awkward questions.
Music played a very important role in this political movement. Music is a superb channel for creating feelings of togetherness, and for communicating political visions and ideals in the lyrics. Music may not seem all that important at first sight, but if you could see its effect in such a spontaneous and frequent usage you'd see its importance. Whenever friends were together there'd be someone spontaneously picking up a guitar and people singing.
Music from a CD player or a concert stage has no such effect, not at all. Such music is also very useful, but in a completely different way. What I'm talking about is a community thing and an atmosphere of friendship. You need people spontaneously picking up the guitar when the mood suddenly strikes.
There was also an "alternative music industry." Explore a little and you'll find lots and lots of music from the seventies labelled "progressive." I think Sweden was particularly prolific. In fact, for your political work I think an alternative music movement, with clear political goals and strong determination, might turn out to be very helpful, very powerful. It really is a fabulous way to spread visions and ideas. Go get some progressive music from the seventies for inspiration.
It's sad that in the end the political enthusiasm of the seventies just seemed to peter out and disappear. But maybe this was unavoidable, given the dreamy attitudes and lack of clear, specific goals.
Having looked at the seventies, for contrast and for important insights look at fascism and nazism between the two world wars. There you can learn about certain very important risks and dangers that are not at all obvious.
Note that fascism and nazism started as popular movements that promised to improve the lot of the people. Nazism was in many respects very inclined toward the working classes. Note also that they became very, very popular with the masses in certain places, and in other places they had substantial minority support. Today this may seem incomprehensible, but back then people just didn't understand the dangers. Let's hope we understand things better today! That's why it's so immensely important to understand these things and learn from them.
Now try comparing and contrasting fascism with the attitudes of the seventies. You can get some very useful insights. Even a detail such as the different styles of music gives a very clear insight into the enormously different atmospheres. The political music of the seventies was spontaneous, amateurish, a simple guitar in the hands of someone who knew a few chords in a warm circle of friends. Fascist music is very far from spontaneous, it strives to be distant, grandiose, majestic, glorious, ominous, heroic.
While in the seventies there was a constant debate aiming at "power to the people," fascism despises democracy and despises the people, denying that the people can have any insight or understanding in political matters. While the seventies said "make love, not war," fascism actively seeks conflict, it purposefully looks for confrontation. While the seventies aimed at "peace, love and understanding," fascism uses shock, intimidation, fear and persecution. While the seventies strived for internationalization and world-wide unity, fascism is nationalism and enmity, a strengthening of national frontiers.
Fascism and nazism made strategic use of the violence in fascist ideology. They started with small violence, so people would get inured to violence, so that over the years people accepted more and more violence, even craved it, thus making it escalate. The tragedies of those times could never have happened without thís gradual desensitization going on and on, year after year after year.
Look at these movements and also at many others, in many nations. Look for parallels and contrasts. See how people are swayed. Try to understand how it happens. Look at all this to gain understanding and to find ideas.
With this background, look at the current situation, and the possibilities and difficulties that exist today. If you discuss this in small groups it's often much more effective than if you work alone or in large groups. When there are many people, simply form smaller groups for some discussions.
Also look at the political activism of today, compared and contrasted against this background. For example, you can start by looking at some superficial things, some things the activists say. One organization that publicly defended the rock-throwing in Gothemburg was AFA (Anti-Fascistisk Aktion). On their website they declare their aims: they fight against sexism, racism, capitalism and homophobia. These aims are very reminiscent of the essential ideals of the seventies. There is also one very interesting difference: While the seventies tended to be dreamy and emotional, these four aims are purposeful and to the point. This is an improvement.
Of course you must also go deeper, you must look at what they actually do, and what they say about their deeds. Their deeds are the essence of the movement. Their aims are just what they hope, what they want. Their deeds and explanations are what they actually are.
So let's look at their deeds, compared and contrasted against this background. Their tactics use shock, intimidation and fear. They actively seek conflict, they purposefully look for confrontation. If you tell them that you think it's better to use other means than intimidation, or that they are suppressing and silencing the political work of the majority, their response is deeply contemptuous of the democratic process, and equally contemptuous of the people, they aggressively deny that the people understands such things.
As an additional detail, they want national frontiers strengthened against international trade.
Er... Ooops.
Wasn't the name Anti- Fascist?
Shouldn't they be clearly, blatantly different from fascists?
Well, there's no need to be all negative. There are some important differences. The activists wants to defend the downtrodden, not persecute them. But we already covered that, it was among their aims, what they say. I claimed that this is superficial. Maybe we should somehow try to redefine this, somehow claim that their words are the essence, and what they do is just a minor detail.
But there are more differences. The fascists direct their violence at the people, they aim at the people, with an intent to hurt. The rock-throwers aim at windows. With the rock-throwers, when people are traumatized this doesn't mean that the rock-throwers aim at those people. Those people just happen to stand in the way. All the traumatized people, all those economically ruined families, all this is just unfortunate accidents, collateral damage.
People outside the movement tend to see this differently. What if my six-year-old nephew is traumatized for life? Traumatized for life just so they can get publicity cheaply and give banks a mosquito sting. People will say that they have no business hurting their nephews, or hurting anyone else either. To many people, the way these activists say that hurting people is just "collateral damage" clearly reveals the activists' extreme contempt for the people.
The fascists of course give completely different excuses. Of course. The anti-fascists are different from them, aren't they? The fascists will say that what they do is for the good of the state, and thereby the people. The state, that's different. Any shocks and traumatizations are just unfortunate but unavoidable sacrifices. Sacrifices, not collateral damage. So yes, they speak differently.
So, as we can see, there are various differences.
But those differences are too small! They're not enough!
I realize that this claim is absolutely outrageous. I know it must sound totally ridiculous to people within that movement. So how can I say such a thing? Well, I have had discussions with racists and fascists. I have argued back and forth with real, deeply convinced, aggressive racists and fascists. I know what they sound like. I've listened to their contempt. I know how they argue.
I have also had a few discussions with the Black Block. And seeing their reactions and attitudes, I've found that the differences are mostly varnish. Beneath this varnish they are nightmarishly similar.
Note that it's only within the movement that this claim is considered outrageous. Several times after Gothenburg I've seen AFA interpreted as Anarcho-Fascist Action. This interpretation comes natural to many people.
Unfortunately it seems completely impossible to get this across to the activists in any meaningful way. They immediately assume it's a matter of careless name-calling. They just can't see that it's a case of factual comparison, a case of lining up, one by one, a number of very specific and clearly definable aspects of what they are doing.
This is no small matter. The rioters are actually dangerous. I'll give you one important reason why. How do they expect to limit their violence? It's in human nature to get inured to violence and lust for more. Even if we assume that the politically conscious among them do not make it escalate, even after years and years of desensitization, of course someone else in the crowd will make it escalate, and then someone else will follow. This is simply unavoidable, it's human nature in such a setting. I mentioned that fascism and nazism took advantage of this. So how do these people expect to put a limit on it?
After the seventies, for two decades there were no new political visions, no strong, enthusiastic political movements. It was a vacuum. I was perplexed and worried. And now, when at last something visionary appears, it's a terrible shock to discover that deep within lurks this nightmarish reminder of a hellish past.
That's why I react so strongly to all this. I'm hoping that some of the people who have drive and initiative will get a clue as to how these things work. I'm hoping that somehow they'll see the dangers and look for a healthy and meaningful path. The world sorely needs new visions, new ideas, new political movements that struggle in healthy ways.
I realize that this is not the answer you wanted. But it is the answer I can give you.
I did give you lots of pointers to what you can do. I sincerely believe that these pointers are very good, that they can be very useful. There really are ways to sway the people. Now you know where to find those solutions.
It seems to me that what you want at heart is a differently shaped democracy. I hope you'll respect the principle of democracy as such. This includes respecting the people, respecting the fact that what people want does matter. Oppressing the people is out. Therefore you can have it your way only if you manage to sway the people. And you need to sway them in healthy ways.
If you do respect democracy and the people, then I wish you luck.
Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.