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Provigil Extends Your Day?
John Mearns writes "It looks like before long all caffeine junkies will be able to ditch the bottle of Mountain Dew or cup of coffee in favor of pill. Its not a true stimulant so you don't get the "caffeine crash," just countless hours of alert attentiveness. " It's also
still in testing so it'll probably make you grow horns or something, and is
supposed to only be used for people who are sleepy during the day, but it raises
several interesting ethical questions.
Now I don't have any excuse to drink caffeine!
Cool, if I take these it will increase my chances of getting a first post.
Pop pill.
Reload
Pop pill.
Reload
Pop pill.
Reload
Rinse,
Repeat.
How else do i know it's time to give up and go to bed? when you finally come crashing down in the bathroom as your body is expelling all that water...
Boom.... now sleep for 12 hours.
I want something that will reduce my bodies need for sleep... make me feel good and refreshed on 3 or 4 hours of sleep.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
What would happen if you took this with an Ambien, a couple of beers, a Tylenol-3 and a grande mocha? I think you would time travel...
I would have read the whole article, but the two popups and the page-covering javascript ad prevented me from doing so. Fuck !
I alternate between posting +5 and -1 Comments. Karma: +53 -47 = 6
If I would have had this during my undergrad career as an engineer, maybe I could have gotten a degree AND had a social life!
There's something incredibly cozy about having a cup of hot coffee or tea to sip on throughout the day, a sort of tangibility that you won't get from popping a pill. It's kind of like the difference between muzak(tm) and Pink Floyd...sure, both are music, but only one is music.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
Since this deprives you of sleep, but somehow keeps you from falling asleep, the long-term side effects of this are compeletly unknown. All the studies show that not sleeping is extreamly bad for you in the long run. Lowers immune systems, increases stress, reduces hapiness, etc.
One thing they don't mention is if you have to sleep for a 'normal' amount after the drug wares off. So if you are awake for like 36 hours, then how long do you sleep? 8 hours? or 16 hours?
Even if this has bad long term effects, this will be very popular, everyone has those nights that they 'have' to stay up and work. Could be the procrationators drug of choice.
Yes! Let's give up natural products like "tea" and "coffee" and give all our money to a drug company! WOOHOO! CAPITALISM! CAPITALISM! CAPITALISM!
No AC's gonna get it today
Or tonight either if you take a pill.
I rode my bike about 15 miles yesterday and I didn't start getting tired until about 4 AM (I got up at 10 AM that day)
Usually, I start feeling drowsy around 2 AM without any exercise.
I don't need no steenkin' pills man!
Just great! You finally tailor your sleep habits to be awake at 3am when the bandwidth is better and someone comes out with a pill that lets you stay online around the clock. Doh!
Provigil was developed in France in the 1970s. Although no one is sure how it works, animal studies show that the medication--unlike other drugs that induce wakefulness--doesn't seem to dramatically increase levels of dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with arousal and alertness.
If you want to take a drug that no one knows how it works, go for it. However, I will not be taking a drug that scientists are clueless about.
The best treatment for sleepiness is SLEEPING!!! If you are engaging in an activity that is depriving you of sleep, STOP!!! There is a reason you get sleepy. Your body and mind needs to rest and recharge and sleepiness is the signal to do so. Medical test after medical test has shown that people that deprive themselves of sleep go insane and lose their ability to perform even the easiest of tasks. That is why sleep deprivation is used so often as a torture device to break down subjects, so they will spill the proverbial beans.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
During any period of fast paced growth, workers stop sleeping as much, due to employer demand.
During the Industrial Revolution, all of those poor workers were working like crazy for 12+ hours a day, in crappy conditions.
How many of us today are actually getting excited about a way that could possibly allow us to work a few more hours a day? (people from management / human resources excepted)
I'll laugh the day we read about the next scandal, where some cutting-edge technology company is caught providing these pills to their workers to increase productivity.
....I'm always chasing rainbows...
sleep 2 hours a day and feel great
I'm REALLY curious about trying that new sleep pattern, but oddly enough, I don't have the time to try it!
Q: What do you think about American Culture?
A: I think it's a good idea.
(adapted from Gandhi)
Prediction: If it works and the side-effects turn out to be manageable, within a few years, this'll be taken off the prescription schedule and sold over-the-counter just like Vivarin, No-Doz, and sleeping pills.
Skeptic's Take: That said, the article gushes pretty poetic about this. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this article is part of a PR campaign.
By the time it's available over-the-counter, though, it probably won't matter, as by that time, the risks and side-effects will be pretty well documented. I'm lookin' forward to it.
Once this is thoroughly tested on Perl programmers, I'll totally go for it. If I never had to sleep again, I might actually be able to finish some of my projects outside of work.
...to see how people underestimate the value of a good night's sleep to your health. I'd rather get a little less done during the day than deal with the whole laundry list of problems you are opening yourself up to when you are sleep deprived. Ever notice that people who don't get much sleep get sick a lot?
Sleep is fundamental, period. There are no substitutions.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
For those of you who don't want to wait, or would rather not fry your noodle, I've had a LOT of good experience with Metabolift by TwinLab. Doesn't leave your mouth tasting like a urinal (coffee 3 hours after you're done) or make your stomach feel like ....well, like it has NoDoz in it. If I had to describe it, I'd say it just makes you feel like you just woke from a good 6 hours of sound sleep.
No, I don't work for TwinLab, but again, I've been using it for a few years and everyone I introduce it to swears by it. CVS (a local pharmacy chain) carries it in most locations, but I'm sure you can find it elsewhere, including GNC. It's gotten me through more than a few nights of intense coding and NOC shifts.
My
Limekiller
If this pill sound interesting to you, you my also like this recent story on kuro5hin about Uberman's sleep schedule. This is problably just as bad for your health though.
0x or or snor perron?!
It has become a modern cliché: There aren't enough hours in the day. Americans are struggling to balance work and family commitments while trying to find time for a social life and recreation. A growing number of supermarkets, restaurants, gyms and other businesses are accommodating today's 24/7 culture by staying open all night. Not to mention, of course, that the Internet never shuts down. But what if you could do the same?
... Quite frankly, in the interest of public safety, I would be tempted to give the individual stimulant medication."
What if you could take a pill and stretch your day--by skipping sleep?
That sounds like the stuff of science fiction, but a drug called Provigil could make it possible. Studies have shown that this new medication allows people to remain awake and attentive when their bodies normally crave shut-eye, without suffering the unpleasant side effects and risk of addiction associated with caffeine, amphetamines and other stimulants.
Researchers caution that the long-term health consequences of avoiding slumber by taking Provigil, or any drug, aren't well understood.
And the makers of Provigil go out of their way to state that the drug is strictly for patients who feel sleepy during the day due to diagnosed medical disorders. Yet as its reputation grows, doctors may soon find themselves faced with a difficult question: When is sleepiness a sickness?
"This drug is going to bring up some very interesting ethical dilemmas," says Dr. Mark Mahowald, director of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center in Minneapolis and an expert on the causes of daytime sleepiness. "Do you prescribe a stimulant medication for someone who is intentionally sleep deprived?"
Currently the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved Provigil only for the treatment of one condition, narcolepsy, which causes a sudden and uncontrollable urge to sleep. But Cephalon, the West Chester, Pa.-based company that sells Provigil, hopes to win FDA approval within a few years to market the drug as a pick-me-up for people plagued by sleepiness associated with any medical condition. Many doctors in this country already prescribe Provigil "off-label," that is, for conditions not approved by the FDA (which is a common and perfectly legal practice). Those conditions include depression, sleep apnea, Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis.
What's more, scientists at sleep clinics across the United States are studying whether Provigil can help those working the swing or graveyard shift, who are sometimes diagnosed with a condition known as "shift work disorder." Symptoms can include insomnia, headaches and an all-around blah feeling, in addition to problems staying focused on the job.
For 20 years, Jane Jaegers has worked the overnight shift as a 911 dispatcher for Santa Clara County--four days a week, 9 p.m. to 7 a.m. The San Jose resident loves the job, but her body has never adjusted to the odd schedule. In the wee hours of the morning, Jaegers says, her attention occasionally drifts during nonemergency calls. If she takes them in time, caffeine pills such as Vivarin and No-Doz help, but they leave Jaegers staring at the ceiling when she goes home and crawls into bed. Constantly exhausted, she has seen her social life suffer. Go to a movie? "As soon as the theater gets dark, I'm gone," says Jaegers, 55.
In December, Jaegers heard that scientists at the Sleep Disorders Clinic at Stanford University were studying Provigil, whose name is shorthand for "promotes vigilance." She signed up right away.
Every night before leaving for work, Jaegers takes two small tablets--she calls them "magic pills." Because half the people participating in the study are receiving placebo tablets, Jaegers can't be sure she's popping Provigil. But she thinks her pills are the real deal. "I just feel more alert," says Jaegers, who adds that she sleeps soundly these days too. "I'm tickled with the stuff."
Drug Is Not Classified as a Stimulant
Provigil was developed in France in the 1970s. Although no one is sure how it works, animal studies show that the medication--unlike other drugs that induce wakefulness--doesn't seem to dramatically increase levels of dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with arousal and alertness.
Caffeine and older prescription stimulants buzz the entire central nervous system, causing jitteriness, insomnia and other unwanted effects. When people who use coffee or amphetamines to stay awake finally doze off, they often remain in bed for much longer than usual, their bodies paralyzed by the need for "rebound sleep." Provigil, meanwhile, seems to target only the part of the brain that keeps us awake. When its effects wear off, the user resumes a normal sleep pattern.
"Provigil isn't considered a stimulant per se, though it has a wakefulness effect," says Dr. Jed Black, director of the Stanford Sleep Disorders Clinic, who is involved in the shift-work study. Although Black says Provigil isn't effective for all patients, it helps many people haunted by daytime sleepiness keep on their toes. While a few users report mild nausea, most don't feel a thing other than awake and alert. When patients switch from older stimulants to Provigil, says Black, they often return to his office and say, "It's not working. I don't feel revved up." Yet tests usually show that their ability to stay awake is much improved.
Earlier research found that when healthy people take Provigil they are able to stay awake and on the ball for a long, long time. For example, a 1995 Canadian study showed that subjects taking the drug were able to perform well on cognitive tests while remaining awake and in good spirits for two and a half days. In another study, published in 2000, U.S. Army helicopter pilots stayed awake for 40 hours while being called upon periodically to perform maneuvers on a flight simulator. Unmedicated, the aviators became sloppy and made errors in the early morning hours. But while taking Provigil during a second 40-hour marathon, their skills and focus never wavered.
Army psychologist John Caldwell, who conducted the latter study, says more research is needed to determine whether dosing soldiers with Provigil is a safe and effective way to promote alertness. However, he says, it's possible that one day the drug could be used "as an emergency measure to briefly overcome fatigue in 'must-do' missions where total sleep deprivation is unavoidable."
What About Students and Working Parents?
But aren't many of us faced with our own "must-do missions" from time to time? If Provigil works for soldiers and pilots, won't it do the same for college students cramming for exams? Medical students on 36-hour rotations? Or a working parent with a sick child and a presentation to finish for tomorrow's big meeting with potential investors?
Cephalon spokesman Robert Grupp emphasizes that Cephalon has no plans to market Provigil to the all-nighter crowd. "It's not for people who work too long," he says. "It's for people with clinical illness." But as word spreads of Provigil's powers, it seems inevitable that the healthy-but-harried will be intrigued.
"Silicon Valley will go wild over this thing," says Andy Serwer, a columnist for Fortune magazine who admits to burning a fair amount of midnight oil when he's on deadline. Instead of swigging Jolt cola and espresso, software designers under the gun could simply take Provigil, which costs about $4 per pill--not much more than the price of a double latte.
But would executives pressure their employees to take a pill for the team? Possibly, says Serwer, if they heard that workers at other firms were pulling Provigil-fueled all-nighters. "You would be at a competitive disadvantage if you didn't," he says.
If any doctors have begun prescribing Provigil to college students and corporate workers under the gun, they're keeping the practice quiet. But Provigil does raise a difficult question for the medical community. What if people who work in positions where sleepiness can endanger themselves and others start asking their doctors for the drug?
Shift Workers Pose Dilemma for Doctors
Take long-haul truckers, for instance. According to federal regulations, they're supposed to take breaks every 10 hours. But many drivers ignore the law, even if it means navigating an 18-wheeler while bleary-eyed. A recent exposé by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel featured an interview with one driver who admitted to being behind the wheel of his big rig for 36 straight hours.
"Do you give that person the medication to keep him awake and not kill himself and a car full of people?" asks Mahowald, of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center. "Or do you as a matter of principle say, 'No, you cannot have this medication because you don't have the proper sleep disorder'?
Not all sleep experts feel that's the right choice. "I think that becomes irresponsible," says Black. "There might be fewer accidents on our highways, but there might also be long-term health consequences" associated with using Provigil "that we aren't anticipating." Black says he will only prescribe the drug to people whose sleepiness and fatigue are caused by a medical condition or occur as a side effect from another medication. However, Black, Mahowald and other sleep researchers agree that it's unwise to think Provigil or any pill will make shut-eye optional.
"We don't understand the role sleep plays," says the Army's Caldwell. "It's a bad idea for anyone to rely on a drug of any description to maintain alertness."
And yet for Jane Jaegers and other shift workers, Provigil may mean the difference between a zombie-like existence and a normal life. And they represent a huge potential market for Cephalon. The number of shift workers in the United States increases 2% to 3% each year, says David Mitchell, a spokesman for Circadian Technologies, a Lexington, Mass., company that advises firms that want to convert to 24/7 operation.
The nationwide shift-work study should be completed by the end of this year. If the results are promising, perhaps Provigil will one day be found in the medicine cabinets of police officers, firefighters, nurses and other people who work nights. And if that happens, what's to stop the son of a shift worker from asking, "Hey, Dad, I've got a history final on Tuesday--can I bum a Provigil?"
Then again, maybe Junior won't bother asking--the medication is on sale through Internet-based pharmacies based overseas, often marketed as a "smart drug."
In "Faster: The Acceleration of Just About Everything" (Vintage, 2000), author James Gleick writes about our changing notion of time. Reached by e-mail, he was dubious about using a drug to lengthen our days. "In a time-obsessed age, this is the Holy Grail," said Gleick. "Cheating sleep is the closest thing we have to cheating death." However, until scientists better understand the phenomenon known as sleep, he was quick to add, "Beware of miracles."
If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at latimes.com/archives. For information about reprinting this article, go to www.lats.com/rights.
stay awake for days at a time by sheer will alone! We don't need no stinkin pills.
I have been taking celastrus seed oil pills for a couple weeks now, which boosts energy, and claims to boost brain function too (I do know that I am much more alert, to say the least). This is an all natural item, not something that a biochemist came up with. I highly recommend it.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
...don't tell about this to my boss! :-)
The filesystem is the package manager
like SPEED? oh wait, that stuff really isn't that good for you, huh
--JonnyBlog
Sleepiness is your body's way of telling you it needs rest (basically, your brain needs rest). Using drugs to avoid it strikes me as foolish, like using analgesics to ignore the pain of a broken bone (as opposed to curing it).
If you're sleepy, you need to sleep. If you're sleepy during the day, well, maybe you need to go to bed earlier.
Plus, sleeping is one of the seven capital pleasures of being human. Going to bed when you're sleepy is actually pretty nice. Why give it up?
IIRC there was an experiment where a factory secretly "spiked" the water cooler with pure caffiene goodness. It produced a whopping 15% in productivity amongst the workers.
I can see the drugs manufactuer now going through trial test.
Hi we'd like to spike your water coolers with a new drug we've developed
I think it's against the law to put anything other than water in those things
This new drug is *Better* than caffiene. It should increase worker production up to 25%!
That sounds great! Where do we sign up?
I am awake ...I do not need any sinking pill...shhhhhhh
Didn't the makers of this pill see the XFiles episode where the military was doing experiments with sleep deprivation on soldiers? They succeeded in developing a procedure that eliminated the need for sleep, but unfortunately the subjects went psycho after a while.
The last thing the world needs is thousands of delusional psychopathics geeks!!!
-- Adam
And you can find more info here.
The active ingredient is called Modafinil, and appears to have fairly low side effects.
Backtrack up a directory on the above link, and there's more info.
Mr. Peenis
This will have horrible side effects. When will people learn that there is simply no substitute for a good night's sleep.
Even natural stuff like gensing makes you feel like pure total SH*T when it wears off. Does funky things to yer pee to...
My dad is a hard-line baptist, will not drink ANYTHING with alcohol (or even anything that looks like alcohol, i.e. IBC Root Beer and Welches sparkling grape juice) but drinks up to 5 pots of coffee a day.
He gets kinds irate when I point out he's addicted, but...
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
If you're THAT in need of staying awake. You can stay awake for days on that stuff. Sure you feel funny, you may vomit, and there is a chance of death, but the devil you know is better than the one you don't, right? Right?
now insteed of killing themselves with sleeping pills people can do it with pills to keep you awake, funny how that works out
Carpe meam simiam!
Now maybe US workers can work even more hours and surpass other countries like South Korea and the Czech Republic who are currently more overworked.
"As flies to the wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for sport." - William Shakespeare, King Lear
Pro Plus
I know a few people who pop those things all the time. I can't see the point though.. they don't work for me. Red Bull all the way baby!
mogorific carpentry experiments
Caffeine is just a bonus for Mountain Dew. Pills will never replace Mountain Dew, for Mountain Dew tastes good! I don't know of anyone that drinks Mountain Dew to "stay awake". If people have that big of a problem staying awake, they take caffeine pills.
Mountain Dew = good taste, caffeine is a bonus for a little "kick"
Caffeine pills = keep you awake
I have a feeling that many coffee drinkers feel the same way, since they're so used to "holding a cup in the morning" or something... it's just not replaceable.
-kwishot
Where does society get off saying what people can and can't do with their own bodies, given that they are aware of the risks (or at least aware that the risks are not known). These are not questions for the government or society to ask. These are questions for individuals to ask. "Is this a good choice for me and my body?"
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
They got to sell this stuff over the counter. I don't care if it makes you grow a damn tail! Gimmee!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
How about not running like a rat on a wheel to the point of needing drugs to function. Where do you go from here, electric shock? Warp time-space so you can work more than 24hrs a day? What the hell is so important to do this to yourself? Whatever happened to maintaining perspective and keeping balance in your life?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
in the (fictional) book, some children are genetically engineered to not need to sleep. They become superhuman, due to all the extra time they have to live life. But in real life, at what point do we say, enough is enough, we don't have to push ourselves this hard, and if we do, do we recalibrate what society expects of a person. Instead of giving your kids ritalin, give them Provigal.
------ Work is so much easier when you don't
I've used it. The longest I've ever stayed up is 40 hours or so. The only noticible side effect was a slight headache, but that could've been caused by any number of things (I get headaches a fair amount because I don't eat very well :/). Headaches are the most common reported side-effect by far.
.5 hours for each hour of wakefulness), that means I gained 22 hours of wakefulness.
Even after 40 hours of being awake, I was still at nearly full mental capactity and able to work, etc. I did not feel the normal symptoms of sleep deprevation at all (I've stayed awake too long many times, and I'm familiar with how it makes you feel). I did not feel high, either. I was just... awake. I also didn't feel many physical problems (sore back, sore legs, etc) like I expected to, but YMMV, of course.
Afterwards I slept about 9 hours and had a normal next day. By my calculations (figuring you normally sleep
You can find them on the internet if you look around enough. I am hesitant to mention sites, but there are two in the UK that sell 100mg pills. I have been unable to find the 200mg pills. They sell for about $145 + shipping ($15 or so) for 30 pills. That's $5.33 a pill. During my 40 hours awake, I took four, which works out to about $1 per hour.
Many people I tell this to think it would be a good idea to take them during finals. I must warn you that it's probably not a good idea because there is a very good chance your sleep schedule will get completely fucked up. For example, you may stay up for 32 hours, decide it's time for sleep, and then sleep through a final. In other words, I would take it a few times beforehand to get used to it before you decide to jump in and potentially fuck up something important.
What happens if you mixed a pot of coffee a few liters of mountain dew and a few Provigal pills? Would you become the Kwisatz Haderach ?
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Provigal + Viagra in one: extend your DAY and your DICK too!
Pills to help you sleep
Pills to keep you awake
Pills to chill out
Pills to exercise
.. all of this could be achieved with a few bottles of Pils instead.
You've got mail. Pattern baldness. - Crow
I seem to recall that scientists aren't exactly sure how aspirin works either. I have no problem using it, and I also don't see a reason people can't just go the hell to bed when they are tired.
People seem to realize that we don't know how alot of drugs work. Prozac, and most other depression drugs aren't know how they work. Scientist don't know what chemical receptors they bond to, it's sort of a trial and error deal.
We as a human race think we are so smart and have figured everything out. Did you know that scientist don't even know completly how eggs scramble because of all the complex protien reactions?
So stop eating scrambled eggs.
(I'm kidding of course it's all risk vs. benefits, and in this case your right.)
My point is, just because we don't know how somthing works dosen't mean that you aren't using it already.
Hmm, now if I can get pills that remove my need for food, air, water, and sex, I will legally qualify as a robot.
Robotiq.com is heavily tested on animals
I currently take this drug, and I was prescribed this drug for a specific purpose. The fact that it appears on slashdot as "the new caffeine" is disturbing, to say the least.
Thank you, slashdot, for telling the masses about medications they should ask their doctors for. While your at it, start running ads for Viagra, Prozac, Paxil, Claratin, and Ritalin.
Back when I was a college student, I started drinking herbal teas, because when you're up late studying it's nice to have something hot and tasty to drink, but you can't keep guzzling the real stuff by the liter and expect to ever get to sleep again. These days, you can have your decaf triple latte (aka nice warm milk to help you sleep) along with that ProVigil pill.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Provigal extends your day, Viagra extends your performance, Now I can bonk all night long without falling asleep.
and that stuff claims that you can be up for days and then after 8 hours sleep be fine again.
yet they always seem to gloss over the fact that rats that were kept on it, if awake long enough without sleep - ALWAYS died of blood infections.
your body needs sleep.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
I guess the military can use this to create the ultimate soldier who never sleeps!
He justs takes a break to piss..
I was on provigil for a few weeks instead of Methelphenadate HCL as treatment for narcolepsy. The Privigil had wierd side effects, It effected my tiniking and kept seeing things out of the corner of my eye but when looked nothing was their. I looked on a news group about provigil and other people had similar side effects. Personally I would rather have a stomach ache or nose bleed as side effects instead of a messed up head/eyes.
If you want to improve your powers of concentration, try Ginko Biloba. I've been taking it for years, 60 mg every morning. I've noticed that my alertness levels are waaay up. I swear by it.
Others might agree.
Note that ginko takes several weeks to build up in your system. Have fun!
A word of true coffeine adict, who started to hate progress
I was prescribed the drug by my doctor because a different medication I was on made me very sleepy in the morning. I was so tired it was affecting my ability to get up and go to work. When I was on Provigal I did notice some minor improvements; more alertness in the morning being the #1 effect. The effect was very minor, almost indetectable. I didn't feel wired or anything like what you get from coffee, and there was no 'crash' later in the day.
I stopped taking it because I thought it was causing me to feel very sick to my stomach, but of course that might have just been because I live in downtown NYC and this was in October.
Generally this is a drug taken by people with serious sleeping problems, like people that fall asleep while driving all the time, etc. It is also thought to have some affect on depression, although the mechanism by which it accomplishes that is unknown. It might just be that getting a good start on the day helps depressed people!
Since this drug is not a traditional stimulant, such as caffeine, or cocaine, it can affect people in very different ways. It's more like Prozac, which seemed to help some people a lot, while others were not helped at all.
Peace, or Not?
it'll probably make you grow horns or something
:p
This is FUD, pure and simple - and you know it. Just because it's not open source doesn't mean it's bad for you
While it's good to see CmdrTaco has his mind on a "gal", perhaps he should be more careful about spelling in his headlines...
...that dealt with experiments in sleep deprivation? While it's not likely that Provigil (make note of the spelling...if the editors had read the article, they would've gotten it right) is the result of some clandestine project to create soldiers who never sleep, it would appear to open the door to certain possibilities...
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
What if your employer asks you to take it so you can be more productive? It's just for this big push to get the new product out by the deadline.
What if at some future time when this drug is commonplace, you can't get a job in your field unless you agree to take the pill during the work week?
What if the traditional work week disappears, replaced by 168 non-stop hours of wakeful, productive work?
People are fond of responding to workplace privacy issues by pointing out that you're being paid for your time, and shouldn't be surfing or getting high or whatever, and so spyware and logging and drug tests are to be expected, and are an employer's right. How is this really any different? You don't have to work at a place that requires 168 hours of wakefulness, but if every employer in your town who has a position in your field is requiring this drug to be taken as a condition of employment, your kinda SOL.
Is that enough ethical questions for ya?
Edith Keeler Must Die
Damn! I want the exclusive rights for school distribution of this stuff the week before finals!
I'm going to have to vote for worldwide acceptance of siestas. It's all natural, cheap, and effective. What more could you ask for?
I am just coming from a coffee break. Called my office buddy, we went to grab a nice cup of coffee and came back to work. We only spent 15 minutes, but on the way to the coffee place we saw cute ladies, a sunny afternoon and what else. I wonder what kind of a pill will ever be able to replace this ... hey folks, there is a world out there, enjoy it !
:-)
I don't think it raises any interesting ethical
questions at all. Could you suggest one?
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
40 * .5 = 20 hours of sleep normally
20 - 9 = 11 hours that you would have slept but didn't
What am I missing?
see the subject....
well said.
The Free desktop that Just Works
Provigal is a random set of syllables implying nothing, while Provigil is a random set of syllables implying that it promotes vigilance, wakefulness, etc.
Drug companies don't like spending millions on coming up with new names, only to have them mangled by typos.
Of course, we could just use the generic name (modafinil) and completely tick them off...
It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people. - clinko
Today cavewoman groky invented a device that will make work easier. She does not know exactly how it works, but she calls it the 'wheel'.Hey anything that makes my life easier but it raises several interesting ethical questions.
Everything raises ethical questions, whether or not there interesting is for people to decide for themselves.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Comon, mods, give this guy a break. It's gross and disturbing, if anything, but it's certainly not offtopic.
Like many other people I wanted get more productive hours out my 24 hour day so began studying napping in college and ending up doing my undergrad research project on napping. I ended up doing a fairly lame project but my original idea was to adopt this sleep pattern (awake 4 hours, sleep 15-30 minutes) and do tests on myself. While there have been anecodotes of this sleep schedule, there have been no documented cases and no scientific research. Incidentally, Leonardo da Vinci was supposed to have adopted this sleep schedule. It can certainly help explain the amazing work that he produced.
The human body has many continuous overlapping cycles. The most prominent is the circadian rythymn, our daily clock. But there are longer cycles (women's monthly cycles) and a shorter one of approximatly 4 hours. Adopting this sleeping pattern would maximize restorative sleep (Stage 4 and REM) while minimizing the less productive sleep stages (Stages 1-3). When you adopt this sleep schedule, you immediately go into deep sleep and then dream within 5 or 10 minutes. The normal delay for dreaming is usually 3-5 hours.
One last thing that I found in my research. While most people can deal with moderate sleep loss for an extended time 2-3 hours a night, there is a core sleep time of 4-5 hours that the average person must get otherwise they become non-functional.
I would love to read up more on this drug and to see how the research has changed in the three years that I have left school.
We had to destroy the sig to save the sig.
They'll take away my Dew when they pry it from my cold, dead, still-shaking hands.
Besides, Mountain Dew reduces your sperm count, so it keeps those bastard children away!
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
Uh... but a brain needs to sleep to store enough energy for the next day. NEEDS TO. That's why every animal has to sleep, otherwise there would be a predator or prey with the great advantage of not sleeping. (yes, a shark sleeps also)
Brains use more chemical energy than the bloodstream can deliver. They store energy in the support cells around the neurons during sleep. While awake the brain uses energy from the bloodstream and the stored energy.
When there is not enough energy available things start failing. Like optic processing -- look up the symptoms of lack of sleep: flickers of movement at the edge of the field of vision (ie, spiders hiding).
We are the ones who are up all night coding and deserve a good days sleep
As a senior in high school, I would have to say that this worries me alot. I mean, in just over 4 years when I join the work force, will I be forced to take pills like this and work 24 hours...or get fired? Talking about adding stress to people's lives. As if all the stress added with all the new tech. isn't enough...
From what I've heard, that is.
But thinking you can keep either one "under control" is a load of bullshit, regardless of supposed levels of self control.
Thanks for playing.
My problem in life is being lazy i always feel tiered and unmotivated due to the fact im tiered ! Does this mean im going to become 1000% more productive well from what it sounds like yes !!!!!! nice !!! I dont care if it makes me grow horns this really amazing ! a cure for lazyness ! woah imagine that America 1000% more efficient then is is today!!!
in which a supercompany overworks it's employees who are all hopelessly indebted to the company.
In one scene we see a worker who is not able to keep up with his dept, as he's speaking with the supervisor. The supervisor has a simple solution. He'll be given a drug which will allow him to work 24 hours a day without sleep. Of course the medicine is quite expensive.....
Dunno. That just came to mind
One particularly noteworthy effect ... is that all of my dreams are very intense and I find myself remembering them as well, down to minute details.
:)
If I were to take this up, this would probably be why.
What's next, SPAM claiming that they can send me a 2 month supply of Provigil for ONLY $9.99
It's also still in testing so it'll probably make you grow horns or something...
Cool! So I can stay alert, and with my creepy horns, I'll make sure others stay alert as well! It's a win-win!
The FDA has issued this warning, reprimanding the makers of Provigil for dishonest advertizing.
Why didn't I think of that before. Thank you. "Okay kids, its off to foster homes with you. I can't have you keeping me awake at night any more.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
The implications for quantum computing are staggering!
Apparently we do know how Provigil works to the extent that we know what any brain drug does (we know what receptors it hits and to some extent how). modafinil (the generic name for Provigil)is an alpha1-adrenergic agonist. An agonist being a drug that stimulates a receptor directly, emulating some neuropeptide.
. com/
Anyway yohimbine is an alpha2-adrenergic agonist that you can find at many drug stores and health food stores. It's known for helping guys maintain erections and (from the time I took part of a pill), I'd say it has powerful psychoactive effects. I think it would be great for someone who has a hard time getting himself to exersize, when I took it I felt restless and in need of exersize. It put me in touch with some agressive side - I could imagine doing martial arts.
So. I wonder has anyone here tried and alpha1-adrenergic agonist like modafinil or adrafinil? Do they feel like yohimbine?
Also has anyone tried using yohimbine to stay awake? Would that work?
Oh and here's some links
http://www.modafinil.com/
http://www.adrafinil
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/yohim.htm
Rocky J Squirrel
Sleep is believed by most sleep experts I've heard of to do the all important long term memory storage. Here's an extremely oversimplified example. Lets say that your short term memory is like a buffer of some sort. It can hold quite a good deal. Every night during the times that you dream, your short term memory is unloaded into your longterm memory. Stronger memories probably go in first, so you are (probably) more likely to forget small details or things that you didn't consider important at the time if you don't get in enough REM. But what happens if you miss sleep? Eventually the buffer is going to fill up. Weaker short term memories will probably be "overwritten" first. It will become increasingly difficult to retain information, and the only way to fix this is to clear the buffer somehow (usually by sleeping, possibly with drugs). Getting more than eight hours of sleep will not help your memory, although getting less could affect it. As far as memory goes, you can't "make up" lost sleep, so getting 1 hour one two nights in a row and then 24 hours another would not help, although there are other parts of your biology that might thank you for it. You could theoretically get in "enough sleep" memory-wise if you were to get the same amount of complete REM cycles in one day as you would in eight hours of sleep, which might be possible with short naps or even some sort of REM inducing drug that drops you straight from consciousness to REM. Then again, maybe not. This has been a greatly oversimplified example of a theory. Add salt to taste.
Why play with risky new drugs when there are proven safe, effective, and more enjoyable ways of getting the same effect?
Hey, it's ambrosia!! (Or am I the only one who has spent countless hours on Anacreon?) And we're making it on an Earth-like planet! Ain't science somethin'?
Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
Of course it's offtopic. The topic is "Provigil". Goatse.cx is not about Provigil, ergo OFFTOPIC. QED.
unfortunately modafinil (provigil) is already a
"controlled" substance in the USA. FDA bastards. So you can't order it from those shady overseas mail-order places. Well I guess you could but if customs takes it, too bad. You have to actually go out and get some doctor to prescribe it for you.
When are people going to understand that you cannot cheat the human body! You can't take a pill to make you loose weight, feel mentally alert, or make your muscles bigger without harming your body. Get a clue and improve your body, so everything else improves with it (alertness, muscles, attitude, etc). Some people will never get this.
I think you were alluding to the Stripper's Trilemma:
Dance harder -> make more tips -> buy more coke -> dance harder -> etc
:)
my writeup on Provigil from Everything2:
Provigil, also known by its generic name of modafinil, is a wakefulness-promoting agent for the treatment of excessive daytime sleepiness. It is prescribed primarily for the treatment of EDS in persons with narcolepsy.
For nearly fifty years, the only medications available to treat narcolepsy were high-abuse-potential, amphetamine-based drugs such as Dexedrine and Ritalin. Unlike traditional stimulants, Provigil does not mediate wakefulness by a dopaminergic mechanism; furthermore, it is (also unlike amphetamine/methylphenidate) highly selective to the anterior hypothalamus, a region of the brain believed to regulate normal wakefulness.
Provigil improves one's ability to stay awake and participate in daily activities. In one study, its efficacy (measured using the Epworth Sleepiness Scale was documented at 20%, versus 7% placebo (p<0.001).
It works.
Throughout my life (since age seven), I've suffered fainting spells, depression, and even seizures, all of which had a hugely negative impact on both my grades and my social life - and which went undiagnosed until age twenty, when a correct diagnosis of narcolepsy brought medication and treatment. The medication has had a profoundly positive effect - I can concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time, can stay awake and alert for more than just an hour or two, can study and retain knowledge - all things that the disease had debilitating effects on for nearly all of my life. I do not feel it to be an exaggeration to say that much of my academic, social, and emotional life before Provigil was more representative of the disease than of my own personality and intellect.
Parent contains no content, mod parent "-1: Redundant".
But seriously folks, I fully expect the Bush administration to ban this drug as they do anything that raises "ethical issues" (ie, there is nothing in the bible about it.) For reference, see "cloning".
Modafinil has been prescribed in France for probably 20 years. It may not be fully understood, but it is one of the few drugs that have a very low incidence of side effects.
One of the most interesting applications for the drug has been explored by US and Canadian military. Their research showed that a person can maintain 95% of their otherwise normal alertness without any sleep while taking modafinil. The test lasted a week, but the subjects indicated that they could have gone on much longer. I would suspect that modafinil has has found its way into quite a few contingency plans by now, since an army that doesn't need to sleep can be quite a foe.
And for the people that might reply to this to say that sleep is so needed, I would like to point out that there are people that are born without the need for sleep. They lead normal lives, except some have two jobs.
It's actually being used to treat people with narcolepsy. Problem is it tends to keep certain people 36 hours at a time on the smallest dosage. I don't think I'd want to take this as a caffine replacement.
Fen-fen is a mixture of two drugs approved for separate uses. When combined they were found to help you loose weight. Unfortunaely it also tourched your heart
Veramocor
Sure this really sounds safe. They don't even know how it works.
This is such obvious PR crap from some firm, most likely cut-and-pasted from a press-release made to look like a news article. Medical companies put out press releases like this all of the time and shoot them to news organizations hoping that they will be published as 'news'.
Don't believe the hype until the drug actually hits the market.
I hate to say it, but there is really no totally healthy way to avoid sleep. As a debater, I frequently take caffiene pills in order to wake up, get frenetic for a round, or just plain avoid falling asleep. As any true slashdotter knows, huge amounts of caffiene take their toll. Dehydration would be one. Another is the crash you experience, and sometimes, the generally shitty feeling that you get when you have a lot of caffiene in your system. Provigil may not come with those side effects, but it is simply not possible for there to be no side effects. If the chemical was not intended to be in your body, then it will have some unseemly effect. Hell, most of the chemicals that ARE meant to be in your body still carry side effects of some kind. As nobody knows exactly what the side effects are, I would discourage you all from taking this product. Remember, they sell all kinds of shit as medication. It was not long ago that Bayer advertised Heroine and Aspirin in the same product ads. Maybe if they do a study a couple of years from now, you can rest assured and try a couple of them. Perhaps you can even try a couple now. But habitual use of a product which nobody understands is generally not a cool thing, the notable exception being Aspirin (nobody understands why it does anything at all in the body, yet it continues to show more and more beneficial results). I'll pass on the Provigil, thanks. NoDoz for me.
Sleep is a disease; a chronic dehabilitating disease that is 100% epidemic. The sooner a cure is found, the better off everyone will be.
So what if you made a combo pill of provigil and viagra? ;)
Knock yourself out.
i could combine provigil with focusyn
Here is a link to a very good page on Provigil (Modafinil), the is aimed more towards professionals. It goes over it's effect on serotonin levels, dopamine release, how it effects the CNS, etc...
In response to the people who assume 4-5 hours a night is "fundamental" or "core":
20,000 years ago, there was no agriculture, and no real value to being completley awake during sunlight hours.
Humans used to almost be scavengers, and our bodies are adapted very well to taking little naps during the day. Staying awake for one long period is less efficient than taking little naps. Just ask any marine.
It is a stimulant, although it was described to me by a doctor as not being one.
Nevertheless, it is listed a class IV controlled substance, not as bad a Ritalin, but it is supposedly addictive.
However, it does work as advertised.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
> I seem to recall that scientists aren't exactly sure how aspirin works either. I have no problem using it, and I also don't see a reason people can't just go the hell to bed when they are tired.
You haven't done much shift work, have you? You don't just "go the hell to bed" at 2am when it's your job to be awake, like the 911 call handler in the article you didn't read.
I've been buying penguin caffine mints from thinkgeek for like a year now. it's helped me *slightly* cut back on my dew addiction.
I have been taking Provigil for more than one year to help with Multiple-Sclerosis fatigue.
It somewhat helps. The body gets used to the drug and I have get a break of it now and then so that when I start again its effects are renewed.
Just be happy to be healthy and don't mess with that kinbd of stuff if you don't need to.
that wished he had more time to just sleep?
or is that one of those things you're not supposed to thnk about...
All I need to do is find a doctor to prescribe Provigil to me, and an employer with flex hours. I'll work Tuesday and Wednesday straight, and take the rest of the week off.
DAMMIT, WHERE WAS THIS STUFF IN 1999?????
blog |
Alex Chiu, eat yer heart out.
BTW: Who wants to try it first?
Wha... the... Starbuck's owns Tazo...?
*stumbles off weeping quietly*
do I need to buy extra fans to attach to my head, to counter the extra heat that'll be generated from overclocking my brain?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
then why don't you just use amphetamine.
It's what you'll get in the military over here for hanging on the 24 hours before NATO comes to rescue.
Pepper power!
You can find it at most herbal stores, and some drug stores.
Why is this such a boon for Silicon Valley? Imagine what would happen if companies were allowed to use the drug indiscriminately. If the drug performs as expected, it will increase performance. But then after all the competing companies adopt it, managers will push their employees to work even longer hours and push the limits of what Provigil can do. If you can stay awake 6 extra hours unmedicated, why not use pills and still stay awake 6 extra hours? This isn't going to revolutionize the IT or trucking industry; once again, only the early adopters benefit.
"Symptoms can include insomnia, headaches and an all-around blah feeling."
HAHAHAHAHA! BLAH FEELING! I'M ON 6 NODOZ AND I FEEL GREAT! SCREW CAFFEINE IMMITATIONS.
sorry.
- Cary
It is important to remember that Leonardo Da Vinci was a truly strange guy. Interestingly enough, many of the most creative people of all time had unusual sleep habits. Einstein slept up to 14 hours a day. Edison would stay awake for over two days at a time, only to crash and sleep so long that he had to find a newspaper to learn what day it was. Euler was nocturnal. Seeing this, it is probably also important that we strive to live in accordance with out own sleep patterns, rather than try to defy your body with drugs. I personally have Type II Circadian Rhythm sleep disorder, which means basically that I'm nocturnal. As much as possible, I build my schedule to be night-oriented. Not so easy while school is around, but when school isn't a factor, you will see me awake until dawn and asleep until near dusk. When I am obeying what my body is telling me to do, I am happier, healthier, and smarter. Pass on the Provigil and instead take a chance to try out sleeping when your body tells you to.
Goatse.cx might not be about Provigil but the grandparent masterfully demonstrated how Provigil is all about goatse.cx with which most people would happily agree with, don't you think?
I'm in the military and I can see it now. Giving us the pills for testing and having us work days at a time. They pay us 24/7, they might as well make us work it too. Maybe this pill is a bad idea. Or not. I'll be able to spend more time reading /. at work. Oh God please make the pill go away
I would like to see a brain scan of someone that
has stayed awake for 40 hrs using this new drug,
and someone in those anti-Meth ads, showing the decreased brain activity / damage. See how they're different.
Sleep is needed to regenerate your brains chemical balance. Without it, the balance is not renewed, and psychosis (mild or not) occurs. Over time the effects are more pronounced.
I'm really skeptical this product has found a way to cheat sleep over time. It probably works fine for a weekend.
I would advise against using this if you want your memory to function. It's still probably just a theory, but I still remember hearing the most probable explanation for the brain's need to sleep that I've ever heard. Basically, the theory goes that when you enter deep sleep (i.e. non-REM sleep) your brain is literally wiring new connections: shifting memories to long term storage, connections are reinforced with more connections, etc. Your brain then goes in to REM sleep to test those connections, which is why REM sleep seems pretty random, but is often related to what's going on in your life.
Some evidence for this: there is a specific type of autism (I can't remember the name) that baffled researchers until they started monitoring the EEG's at night. The researchers found out that the people with this type of autism were literally going in to seizures at night, at least they were experiencing the "electrical storm" in their brains that characterize a seizure. The researchers put the patients on anti-epilepsy medication, and it cleared up the symptoms right away. As the theory goes, the brain was using all of it's connections every night, preventing unused/unneeded connections from atrophying. So the patient was literally unable to forget anything, but also didn't have any more room for more connections.
The moral of the story (considering that only a fool wouldn't realize that these pills won't be more abused than Viagra)? Don't use/abuse these pills if you want to be able to remember/learn anything long-term.
BlackGriffen
When I stayed up three days straight to try to cram an entire semester's worth of material into my brain, I attended my science class.
The professor wrote a word on the board. I forget which word, but it had a 'w' and an 'l' in it.
I was so out of it, I saw a fork and a knife on the board, layed out like a table setting. I reached out slowly to grab the fork and knife, but then I felt an immeasureable sadness come over me: there was no spoon.
I snapped out of it to see the woman behind me saying, "What the hell are you doing", since my hands were reching out towards the blackboard.
I slept for eighteen hours after that.
What I like about this sort of thing is the idea that you could work 40hrs straight (with a few breaks), sleep for 8-12hrs, and then you'd have Wed-Sun (or some other 5 day period) off every week. That would just kick arse. Super "alternative work week".
Another reason to reconsider all-night cramming (with or without pharmacological assistance) is the possible role of sleep in memory consolidation.
Caveat emptor, YMMV, illegal drugs are bad, etc etc etc, BUT...
We don't need any high-tech solution here, when there's been the Trucker's Friend, good old speed(tm), around for years, keeping losers who haven't cracked the book awake & alert the entire week before finals for decades.
I mean, really. Your favorite pot connection can usually hook you up with some speed on a same-day basis, if he's not carrying some with him normally, which he usually is. You'd be surprised how much potheads use speed to cram after baking themselves for the first 3/4 of the semester. Like pot, it's not known to be physically addictive, it's effective, not bad for you when used sparingly, and usually not too expensive.
Don't tell me none of you 133t programmers out there haven't done it at least once to get through a tough project.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
It's also still in testing so it'll probably make you grow horns or something
So I can get more work done in a day, and grow horns? I want in on the clinical trial!
Cheers
-b
Girlfriend sez: "In your case, it would just make the ones you already have visible."
As an individual who suffers from both chronic depression and insomnia, something like this would be gold to me. Rather than taking drugs that try to force my body and brain to sleep, this would allow me to take better advantage of the hours that I spend awake. Instead of working at 4 in the morning because I can't sleep and piling up errors, I could work at 4 in the morning because I can't sleep and keep everything accurate and precise.
Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo
Well, you probably won't remember, but your great-grandparents might have gone through this. When aspirin was first commercially used in the 1870's, no one knew how it worked. It sure was nice that it did work thought, even if an occasional upset stomach occured. It wasn't until the 1970's that it's relation to prostaglandin was discovered. Read this link for more info.
I was diagnosed narceleptic a while ago, and they started me on 200mg of this a day. Did squat. Absolutly nothing (for me). Since then, I've moved up to Dexedrine 20mg twice a day (oh? dont know what it is? enjoy 30 minutes of searching, and then 3 days trying to find a way to get some... ^_^). Went from sleeping roughly 15 hours a day (in two seperate blocks) to arround 8. I was drinking the equivilent of 2 cups of coffee at every meal and snack, and sleeping 15 hours (just to put things into perspective).
While I thought the stuff just didnt effect my form of the big N (there are different forms, such as cataplexy, ESD, and others), it evidently didnt target my body in the way that the doc was hoping for. Granted, I've seen it work on others, but it doesnt always work. Even medical journals start of an analysis with "The mechinism which Modafenil targets is still unknown at this time" and then leads into what little is known about the substance. What is known is that the addiction potential is 100 times less then Dexedrine, and *by my estimates* atleast 50 times less then Methylphenidate. Which is why MDs start with that and not the stronger stuff. Reason being isnt physical addiction, but psychological addiction in relationship to the euphoria present while under the influence.
On a personal note, I love Dexies ^_^ although even a mentally retarded monkey could tell you that I'm addicted to them.
g.page
I can relate. I had CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome) and still suffer some aftereffects from it.
During the acute phase of the illness, I definitely experienced what you are talking about. I got lucky...I have not had an acute period since 1994. However, I still have residual effects which include a permanently impaired stamina, and problems with transferring data from short term to long term memory. I also have the annoying habit of occasionally losing consciousness for a few seconds at a time. I call it a "brown out." Some people call it "brain fog."
Anyway, what I'm really saying is...lemme at this stuff! I can definitely use it. If it won't affect blood pressure, I want it.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Exactly how does this raise "ethical questions"? If scientists figure out how to safely biologically counter the human body's need for sleep, WHO EXACTLY GETS HARMED?
I fail to see where the "ethical" part falls into this. Unless by "ethical" you meant, "is unnatural" and/or "isn't what God intended". <sarcasm>Oooh, *now* I see...</sarcasm>
Whether or not something is "natural" or "unnatural" has NOTHING to do with whether or not it is ethically good or bad. If its useful to people, and doesn't harm anyone, I don't care how "unnatural" it is, you cannot make an argument against it on 'ethics' or 'morals'. Cloning (as an example) *does* raise ethical questions, but NOT because cloning is unnatural.
As I know very well from 7-days-on-5-hours-sleep binges during college, staying awake for long periods, even if you feel alert, eventually catches up to you. And as someone suffering from a sleep disorder currently, I know that going long periods without much sleep can be very bad. What makes me worry about this drug is that it may work too well. After a week of sleep deprivation, no amount of coffee will keep you from feeling sleepy. You will fall asleep after a point. But if you can pop this pill and not feel sleepy, you may stay up far past what your body can take.
The enemies of Democracy are
My best friend uses it now.
She's narcoleptic and after the second time she drove her car into a ditch she finally got tested and they put her on Provigil.
This drug has literally been a life saver! (for everyone else on the road).
It is really a nice drug with a low occurance of side effects. Its not like she is suddenly restless, but rather she doesn't fall asleep so unexpectedly.
The only negative things she has to say about it is that because it is metabolized by the liver, you really shouldn't drink alcohol while on it. This is kinda a bummer at parties.
Word,
Rob
if a drug was discoverd tomorrow that got you high for 1 hour, had no side effects and made you glow neon orange so every cop could know you were on it, it would still be illegal in the u.s. if it were fun.
but keep thinking it's ok to keep everything fun illegal b/c of this possible situation where some drug crazed lunatic falls alseep behind the wheel and broadsides a school bus.
This brings to mind "Johnny Hit And Run Pauline" on the first X album "Los Angeles." Too bad the lyric sites are all gone now because I don't want to post it wrong. Just get the album and listen to it. http://www.half.com/ is a good place to start for RIAA conscientious objectors.
How long you will sleep after being awake for 36 hours is not a constant, but what is a constant is that, over time, you average 8 hours a day, period, without variation. IF you miss some, you will make it up, over the next few days, or even weeks.
Track your sleep for a year, and just see what happens. Don't forget to count nodding off at the desk and sleeping on the bus.
I totally understand giving up on sleep and how maybe a pill can let you code longer with no sleep or something else in the same vain.
I'm quite curious how going without long periods of sleep would work on a marathon runner or weightlifter/body builder.
Its not so much mental alertness these people need but muscle recovery time.
Would this pill help these kinds of people give up on sleep or is this a drug only for the more sedentary types of people?
"Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." Ferris Bueller
Intellectual Property: Something the average MCSE doesn't have between his ears.
I saw a book in Borders the other days with the title Windows XP for Dummies, and I thought "It sure is".
Coffee has been around for ever. We know the positive/negative effects. It is trust worthy.
In the current corporate/government lobbyist environment I wouldn't touch ANYTHING even vaguely pill shaped which is designed to improve my 'worker drone efficiency'.
Will it also turn me into a slobbering 'yes sir' zombie?
Call me paranoid, but they can take that pill and shove it!
-Fantastic Lad
Someone uses this to play everquest to stay up for weeks without sleep die? then thier parent sue the drug manfacturer for killing her son.
-THIS SPACE FOR RENT!
There is another which has similar effects, called 4-methylaminorex (dl-cis-2-amino-4-methyl-5-phenyl-2-oxazoline) which effects most specifically the the norepinephrine and acetylcholine receptors in the brain, with comparitively minimal/nonexistant effect at the dopamine receptors unlike most standard stimulants.
Unfortunately this chemical has a rather long active duration when taken by oral administration (which, besides it's potential for abuse, is probably the main reason this chemical has not seen commercial use), however it VERY effective at reducing the effects of sleep deprivation without the anxiety and psychotic effects usually attributed to methamphetamines and other stimulants which are highly active on the dopamine system.
As for the previously mentioned Uberman sleep schedule, I can see it being effective at producing mental altertness with a minimum of sleep, however I would suspect that it would have an effect on the recuperative capabilities of your body in addition to reducing the immune system. As a weightlifter I've found that additional sleep beyond the eight hours I usually require is very helpful in speeding recovery.
Machine Gestalt
That's how I met the girl I'm with now, we stayed awake for three days together to get loopy, we ended up saying too much to each other, and now we're all over each other. hooray for sleep-dep!
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
I am sleepy constantly. Doesn't matter how much or how little I sleep the night before, I will never feel fully awake. I have learned to live with this and can still do everything normal.
Caffeine also seems to make me sleepy.
I'm not sure that I'd want to start taking a pill that gets rid of it. I hate being depenand on anything.
I have chronic fatigue syndrome and excessive daytime sleepiness. It's hard for me to stay awake, function, and concentrate on basic activities throughout the day. My doctor understands that I am a working college student who needs to lead a "normal" life and has prescribed me several different stimulants over the past year. I've tried them all, and in February he put me on Provigil.
The drug is just plain weird. It doesn't feel like other stimulants, and it was unable to keep me as alert and active as ritalin and adderall are able to do. Although I have found that if I take around 400+mg of it, the stuff works pretty well. But keep in mind that I'm not a normal, functioning person--a smaller dose would probably work extremely well for most people.
However, I do not take the drug very often anymore because of the price. Unless you are diagnosed with Narcolepsy, it's extremely difficult to get your insurance company to co-pay for Provigil. And at $5 a pop, they're way too expensive to pay for otherwise.
Anyway, Provigil is promising. There are just some days when a person cannot get the recommended amount of sleep. The side-effects do exist. (I never felt normal while on the drug.) Do a search on google for yourself and read some message boards. Provigil isn't the greatest drug for everyone, and I'll doubt we'll see the day when every truck driver is popping modafinil pills.
porp
BTW, no drug can beat a good night's sleep.
As long as this kind of cheat on Nature doesn't become commonplace, we're fine. Otherwise, I foresee a time when your employer will say, "You don't need sleep. Keep working." And he/she just might be right...
Provigal affects Birth Control!
I found a few references to possible birth defects as well, however not seriously sightable statements. Even the official website states that dosage during pregnancy should seriously consider the benefits to outweigh the risks.The strangest issue is that for a drug that has been around since the 70's there is very little data about interaction with other drugs and they just recommend you don't use alot of different types. Brings up something I remember hearing about a company in the past that found negative results and decided that they just "hadn't performed those tests". Who knows.
Buyer Beware.
I'm male though, so where do I order my emergency supply! :)
Garth/Darkstar
...Provigil, whose name is shorthand for "promotes vigilance."
*sigh*
Lembas would have been such a better name.
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Why do people here so often cite FICTION when making a case for why something should not be done?
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
Every night before leaving for work, Jaegers takes two small tablets--she calls them "magic pills."
...my teachers sure don't. FYI, I'm a CS undergrad. Quite frankly, my life is already hideously hectic enough. Sleep is all well and good, BUT it's just plain unfesable sometimes.
I have taken this drug, albeit an analog called Adrafinil. It has a mild and sustained uplifting feeling that, mixed with the right mindset, can produce intense creative concentration. I have heard people using it as a treatment for depression and as a cognitive enhancer, but I have a feeling a lot of the effects are in the user's expectations.
Check groups.google.com for some good anecdotal information on these 'nootropic' mental enhancers.
how long before thinkgeek gets a hold of this and starts an agressive marketing strategy?
I've had a problem with getting sleep during the day for years. It has nothing to with how interested in my projects I am or how much sleep I get: I would always get sleepy right at 10 am and about 2pm. Lately I've taken to walking to work each morning (about five miles) and it's made a huge difference. It took me a week to realize that most of my sleepiness problems had disappeared. Now, a month later, there's no mistaking the difference: if I walk to work I feel alert. If I don't, I get sleepy. I usually hate exercise but I enjoy the walk.
Miko O'Sullivan
...A marketroid's wet dream of a slogan. Knocks the old "Coke Adds Life" ad campaign into the trashbin of history. Because if this stuff really works, then it's not just a stupid slogan, it's a fact!
Think about it: Sleep devours on average a third of everybody's life. If you survive till ninety, you've only actually lived sixty years of it! If it really is as side-effect free as they say, then make no mistake, sooner or later it WILL take over the (industrialized) world. Coffee will be a storm in a teacup.
...But I won't hold my breath. Personally, I'd be very surprised if they didn't find some side effects. The question is, will they be severe enough to deter the PHBs?
You get to dream, stretch and lie down, you can wack off or better yet you can have a little sex before, after or before and after. Generally sleep is pretty good stuff. Put a down comforter on your bed or a heated blanket and it's bliss. Maybe some jersey cotten sheets or flannel. Now you're talking. I'm a big fan of sleep, I aim for at least 7 hours, feel great, no more caffine either.
While staying awake for days on end with an unknown drug might not pose any ethical challenges to society, the drug does pose a serious ethical question to the medical community.
Most doctors take the Hippocratic oath very seriously, and its first precept is to "Do no harm."
Most contraversial medical procedures (such as euthenasia and abortion) along with everyday surgical procedures (which nontheless are at least temporarily damaging) are reconciled with the Hippocratic oath by weighing the types of harm being done with the harm being prevented.
It's all very Three-Laws-of-Roboticish to coin an awkward term.
Obviously this all varies considerably from doctor to doctor, and if you scan medical journals you can find flame wars that make software licensing arguments look like a squirt-gun fight.
This drug presents an ethical dilemma for doctors prescribing it because the harm it may present or prevent are both so nebulous. Very little is known about sleep except for the fact that it's very bad to go without it for long periods of time. OTOH, this drug seems to be free of dangerous side effects and could be of genuine benefit.
It's very easy for us to say "Hell, I'm a responsible adult, I know the risks, I want the damn pill.", but it is a different matter entirely for the doctor prescribing the pill, since he is basically weighing some potentially drastic and unknown health consequenses against your desire for an all-night Quake tournament.
Last time I stopped sleeping I ended up creating a multilevel terrorist organization with cells capable of operating independantly without central authority. Our goals included pulling creative pranks and reducing everyone's debt record to zero. We called it Project Mayhem... but I've said too much... the first rule of project mayhem is that I can't talk about it...
Gaping anus ascii
Lovely.
Now, can you extend that by adding page lengthening/widening functionality?
C-X C-S
Minimization of CNS Effects and Abuse Potential Your promotional materials5 present claims that "Provigil promotes wakefulness without widespread CNS stimulation in preclinical models" and "Low abuse potential" to suggest that Provigil does not have CNS properties that may lead to abuse and are common to other scheduled stimulants or stimulant-like drugs. The claim is misleading because it is inconsistent with the Pl. The PI states, "[t]he abuse potential of modafanil (200, 400, and 800mg) was assessed relative to methylphenidate (45 and 90mg) in an inpatient study in individuals experienced with drugs of abuse. Results from this clinical study demonstrated that modafanil produced psychoactive and euphoric effects and feelings consistent with other scheduled CNS stimulants (methylphenidate)." Furthermore, presenting data from pre-clinical models is not considered substantial evidence to support efficacy claims.
-- Too lazy to get a lower UID.
My test drive opinions, negatives first:
- headaches - Very distracting and not fixed with OTC remedies. I consider this a killer side effect. I saw this at both 100mg and 200mg.
- da jitters - well, if you are going all Cornholio, it is going to cut into your productivity. I went from juggling 5 different things at once to dropping three and fucking up one of the remaining two. Maybe you can train yourself to keep it all together.
- elevated blood pressure - This may have something to do with the headaches, but that feeling of impending aneurysm does not rock.
- dehydration - I fly through the water, and all of my piss smells really rank and chemical-like. There is a productivity hit to this I suppose, and it seems like more than that imposed by chugging coffee.
- rebound - the crash can be hard, and the duration of sleep is not really predictable. I tended to be irritable the day after, as well.
positive: you are slightly more alert. 100mg and I can still sleep no problem. in my chair. . .not good. 200mg and you are are awake, but more side effect manifestation.
DO NOT take 4 per shift like the guy up there. You are going to get prescription info from Slashdot?
Don't be a dumbass: check out the info on ANY drug before you take it. Know the maximum dose. Know the interactions. Know the side effects. Know if it is excreted by the liver or kidney if you have problems with one of them. If you are going to take the doctor out of the loop, who is going to look out for your sorry ass?
"From what I've heard" is usually doubletalk for "and I would fucking know."
And, speaking as the original poster of the So can speed thread, anyone who uses knows that you would be smart to respect how addictive that shit actually is before you decide that it's something you're gonna use to help you get your work done.
I stand by my comment original, when viewed in the context of the parent post. If you think you can use it to help you code (and sometimes it really does help) and you think you're not going to come to rely on it when you're facing, for example, a fucked-up deadline...
Well, then you're incredibly naive. Sorry to disappoint you, Pollyanna.
And relying on it is a problem, regardless of how good your intentions are. So try not to get all crazy with your knee-jerk reactions -- my opinion isn't based on what I heard in some ridiculous PSA.
I'll take a Viagra with a Provigil chaser please.
www.sguil.net
The Analyst Console for NSM
.. at least the stuff they sell in Australia doesn't (last time I looked).
If you take it to keep you awake then you're barking up the wrong tree. Unless the sugar rush is what works for you..
I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to cut back.
after that, it fucked me up - i can't really describe what would happen, but i'd get this wierd feeling that my immune system was just sort of tenuously holding on.
try st. john's wort. you can get it cheap as a tea. i've found that every 12-oz glass drank reduced my need for sleep by about an hour.
might take 2-3 weeks to start working (if you read up on st. john's wort, this is a pretty standard estimate).
haven't used it in a while because i haven't needed it, and it does have stimulant-like side effects, although fewer side effects than any other drug i've tried. great hangover killer.
st. john's wort is good for the brain. too bad it has been advertised as a cure for depression. you can use it anyway.
In addition to its wakefulness-promoting effects and increased locomotor activity in animals, in humans, PROVIGIL produces psychoactive and euphoric effects, alterations in mood, perception, thinking, and feelings typical of other CNS stimulants. Modafinil is reinforcing, as evidenced by its self-administration in monkeys previously trained to self-administer cocaine; modafinil was also partially discriminated as stimulant-like.
Modafinil, or Provigil as it's called here in the States, is a safe and effective eugoric drug. Why
should I be FORCED to use a doctor as a middleman
for any drug I wish to take? Fuck doctors, and fuck their prescription pad. I believe that us consumers have the right to make our own medical decisions, educated or otherwise.
Educate yourself here: http://www.provigil.com/pi.htm
And buy it here:
http://www.smart-drugs.net/index.html
To encourage an environment of personal and medical freedom, join the Life Extension Foundation's efforts to reign in the FDA here:
http://www.lef.org/
don't forget your teddy bear.
A lot of people seem to think this is a pretty cool idea for those long binges of coding/system administration/photoshopping/etc.. Sure it keeps you awake, but what about one of the really nasty downsides to sleep deprivation that I am sure most /. readers have experienced: hallucinations. I can honestly say that I have on numerous occasions been up all night playing EverQuest/Final Fantasy and then gone straight to work with little if any sleep (And help from my friends at Starbucks.); resulting in aural and visual hallucinations. About that time I pass out, but I have a friend who can go for 36+ hours without crashing, and experiences what he calls "LGMs," short for little green men. What happens when the geeks of the world can stay up for days at a time- do we go into hallucinatory overdrive? Or does Provigil deal with the LGMs? Anybody know?
I've been taking the anti-pregnancy pill for ages hoping for a pair of breasts of my own... no go tho :( I think I've been getting the offer of these pills in my email box for ages! :)
I take Wellbutrin, which has noradrenic, as well as dopaminergic effects. It serves to keep me more awake and alert than I'd otherwise be, and it's effectively treating my Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder. I've tried Yohimbe. It just gives me a panic-attack kind of anxiousness; with none of the pro-sexual side effects. My friends all swear by it, so I must react to it atypically.
I take 200Mg a day in the am as prescribed. Prior to this I had been suffering from a great deal of general fatigue, though not sleep deprived, and a pronounced inabillity to stay on task, (start coding function and forget why you were doing half way through)... Along comes Provigil.. The first couple of days I was VERY alert. After a few days, the rush wore off and now I just am able to stay awake and focused. It has improved my general mood consderably and my co-workers are happy that I am able to do my job again. My family is happier because I am more in the here and now and not as cranky as i had been.
Even on the first day when I went to bed I was able to sleep quite well. All very positive... No downside so far.. no side effects noticed. But then at some point my brain may implode, or grow it's own genetalia. Who knows ? But for now I'm glad I have it.
morturii
Pfft like this is new. Ain't you ever heard of methamphetamine? Keeps you going for days on end :)
-"I still believe in revolution; I just don't capitalize it anymore." - srini!
Just ask Dr. Franklin from B5 about overuse of stims.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
There are Formula 1 cars that get 800 horsepower out of a 2.0 litre four cylinder engine. It barely lasts one race, and then has to be rebuilt.
A 2.0 litre four cylinder passenger car can last for decades.
You give up performance for durability.
What do you think this drug does to your body? Do I really care? No, I'm just making a point. I see it as evolution, the stupid kill themselves off.
So it's not all natural, and it stains your teeth, but it gets you through the day, tastes good warm or cold, and has no calories.
I drink 5 2ltrs a week at home plus 2 20oz bottles at work a day... I sleep 4-6 hours a night (and have for like 15 years now)and function perfectly. I usually crash out on saturday for 8-9 hours (more like normal sleep).
Only side effect, sweat a bit more than average.
The only way for a fat concious IT geek to fly.
according to this book. sleep is required to restore your 'short-term' memory. or 'defragment it'.. you can't do this while awake. just as you cant run checkdisk in winxp whil the os is running.
not sleeping = bad
been there, done that. trust me, a caffeine crash is much worse than a speed crash. you can use no-doze to postpone a speed crash, but nothing postpones a caffeine crash. a little weed makes a speed crash tolerable, nothing works on a caffeine crash. but now i'm a too-young-to-be-a-geezer (but i sure look and feel like one) with a bad heart (2 heart attacks do that), so just fucking go to sleep when you're tired, and say no to anything that makes ya crash. whatever it is you're staying up for just ain't worth it. for real. oh, you may think it is now, but 20 years from now you'll realize how wrong you were.
There is nother side of lack of sleep which nobody has touched on. Your body, in its wakefulness, produces toxins from metabolism which collect in your tissues. The harder you work, the more toxins are produced. For instance, the reason you get sore after working out is because of lactic acid. Your body produces these toxins, and they are flushed from your system primarily during sleep. Taking these pills may cause you to be able to stay awake longer, but you are just building up these toxins in your system.
Another issue is the fact that you stay awake longer, you never take a downtime. The body was designed to deal with stress in three steps: React, Recover, Rest. Unfortunately, in our fast-paced world, the body gets used to being stressed, and just like continually stretching a rubber band without letting it bounce back to its original shape, it loses its shape, then ultimately breaks. This breakage may take the form of heart attack, stroke, aneurism, etc. I actually read a statistic that 60-70% (I've heard as high as 80%) of all doctor visits in America are due to stress-related maladies. Why prolong that with a drug that will rob your body of the rest it needs? (besides, you know that if someone invents a pill that will make you functional for 24 hours at a time, you are going to end up working for a boss that will want you to work 22 of them.
Stress kills, baby!
--Storm
That is what they THINK it does. They have no actually idea how to prove it.
It's like insulin, 20-30 years ago they had no idea how it helped people they couldn't measure blood sugar levels and didn't know about diabites but still gave people insulin.
They have NO ways of measure serotonin levels in the brain. Even if they theorize it bonds to those receptors they can't tell you why, or what exact receptor numbers. Try asking lilliy how it crosses the blood brain barrier.
I agree that another example would have been asprin which was in a root or 'erb that was put in drinks as far back as Anchient Greece but they had no idea how it worked.
"Call me a whore, but I am rather fond of the Starbucks Tazo teas."
Yeah, that sentence implies a VERY distant relationship between Starbucks and Tazo, doesn't it? You're the one with the shoddy grasp of English. And lighten the fuck up while you're at it.
Provigil...Pro (for) vigil (staying awake)...Could they be a little more creative? How about Anticoma or just Legalcrack?
...that this discussion has deteriorated into illicit drug use.
/. is for!
Then again, that is what
So when do I get my damn soma?
Woz
- Cons:
- Extreme irritability. I mean "don't talk to me!" cranky
- Anxiety, jumpiness
- Nausea (queasy, not caffeine acid stomach)
- Headache
- Irregular heartbeat after it wore off and for most of the following day
- Take more than 200 mg at once or overlap doses and you won't be more awake, you'll just amplify the side effects
- It's hard to predict how long a dose will last. You might not sleep even when you want to
- It's expensive as hell and most insurance doesn't cover it
Your mileage will undoubtedly vary. I didn't find Provigil to be any better than cheaper, known safe (for me, at least) timed-release stimulants.here is some more info:
scientists are still not sure how it interacts with known neuro-chemicals.
it was developed for the french army.
the hype about it is way overrated, you will still feel fatigue.
It did not do well in placebo tests, not well at all.
me, i liked adderall... speed in a nice pharmaceutical pill...
literally.. dextromethamphematine and dextroamphetaime... nice, purified speed in a pill...
great to code on.. made me a total asshole...
I just can't fight with sleep with coffee (even extra strong), it just doesnt work. Actually I become more sleepy
But cup of good green tea.. it rocks.
What's wrong with me?
... if I go on this Uberman cycle thing?
as a drug. true pink floyd is going to be more worth doing for personal experience and the savoring of the audio taste...
:)
but some of us would really use an extra 8 hours a day that provigil would produce....me for starters.
what you would see is people who are on caffine pills...who are on coffee so hard that they shake...and hallucionate...they would go...
and be healthier i bet
this isnt a drug for casual "lets go out for coffee people"...this is a "i'm afraid to do heroin...but i could really use the extra time" sort of people thing..
of course...
there are a lot of us...
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
sleep will be made illegal for the lower class... :)
and instead of flouride in the water they will put provigil v.2.0 into our water supply and we shall all live in a half-awake world our entire existances...just doing work...only with provigil this seems even worse...because we are NOT half asleep, but fully awake, and would not just be meat peices of a moving machine who's parts happen to be flesh... we would be fully aware of where we were...unless broken full metal jacket style until we are all hopeless spiritless creatures... and are afraid to go to the 'sleep walkers' who offer us an hour of illegal consentual activity for a small price
its the end of sleep as we know it, and i feel fine
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Ginko can cause brain hemhorrage when combined with aspirin.
Ginko by itself makes me feel like my brain is melting. Be VERY careful, many herbal supplements have powerful chemical effects.
we'll interlace provigil with stimulants, with sleeping pills. in the meanwhile i'm sure they are working on that problem as we speak...but its a very valid observation. in the meanwhile it cannot be denied the amount of things that a person could do, could they stay awake for a week... or a month... even IF they had to turn off all use of their memory :)
and personally i think this is going to usher in a whole new level of insanity...
h.p. lovecraft will have nothing on the new breed.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
as long as you sleep a little, your body will naturally purge into REM. thats why vivid dreams(associated with REM) are such an important side effect of sleep dep...because your body realizes "hell...i'm asleep!" and then jumps down to get as much REM as possible... and then jumps up again...all this jumping of course shaking the dreams about... but really...
:)
i would be more worried about Other types of sleep...the middle ground stuff which would be killed.
of course, provigil fixes this problem...and provides REM sleep in a pill...or iv drip...
i use sleep in a can
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
You misspelled "horny".
thats a good question...i think its something you will have to work out for yourself though. your comment actually got me thinking as well...as i depend a lot of my existing schedule on a boot up period as well... (to do list{[boot]:brush teeth,shower,dress,.....})...i think it may help you a little to pace your day and orginize things before hand...knowing that you brush your teeth on the 3rd quarter of the day (or you cuold brush at ALL...your teeth'd be really clean!) ...but generallly...its something that is custom suited to your schedule. i'd reccomend brushing after every meal ...before and after sleep plus one to three more / day if your teeth are bad...but that may be a little intensive...hehe
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
they eat my coffee...those dirty bastards.
...and realize i had been standing staring at the walls in utter panic for an hour... with no memory of most of that time...likely because it was spent just sitting there...waiting for them...waiting for death to arrive...but it never did. once again this happened *more than once*
of all the coffeestained hallucionations...my favorite, however would have to be the black helicopters/swat teams... i remember a couple of times...that i for whatever reason...that the SWAT team was outside just ready to kick in my walls and kill/whatever me. so i would grab my big stick(quarterstaff for u D&D players)...sit in the middle of the room...and watch the walls.
the walls would then, of course begin to do their own little things (anyone seen pink floyd the wall?...the walls of my room look like brick)...which would depend on the night...
after awhile i'd come to
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
What kind of a stupid-ass society requires people to go without sleep? I will go with little sleep for two months if you want me to, but it'll cost you a shitload of money, enough money so that I never need to work again.
actually...i know your trying to joke off of the fight club. however...if you take a look at any of these,..all of these(look under sean kennedy show in rantradio)...have a similar idea i believe...that is...starting as a multilevel terrorist orginization with cells capable of operating independantly.
...in the prescence of a beautiful woman...who made soap...during a portion of my life where i travelled to meat this beautiful woman...(Thus loosing all sense of direction)...and being a coffee induced insomniac. remembering the fight club during all of this was scary, to say the least.
originally at least
i just remember one day...after joining an international terrorist orginization...being
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
"you think this is paranoia? wait till the real paranoia kicks in"
"you think this is burnout? you've obviously never tried provigil"
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
what when your at a job interview...you are the only one who is provigil clean. who gets the job?
what when everyone else is making enough money from 168 hours... you only working 70ish will not have enough money even if you do work still...and get a job...you'll be very poor...
and although i'm not yet sure something about not affording food and toilet paper for 12 months straight would break me into taking a mysterious drug...
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
I read about this product from time to time, and I never hear any ill effects. it's just screaming "Too good to be true" to me, and I cannot seem to find anyone who has anything bad to say about it. I think I'll look it up on Google.
Side effects (in the order Googlegave them to me):
Also: Modafinil, Provigil or Alertec is able to decrease the effectiveness of oral contraceptives because it increases the metabolism of oral contraceptive hormones by the liver. An adjustment in oral contraceptive therapy may be required. (Anything that interacts with the liver or effects it's metablolism enough to be on a warning concerns me greatly -RG)
[virtualdrugstore.com]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103443/
I seem to recall that scientists aren't exactly sure how aspirin works either.
The primary mechanism of aspirin is actually entirely understood and has been for quite a while. It is a non-competitive inhibitor of these enzymes cyclooxygenase 1 and 2 (COX for short), which catalyze formation of prostaglandins, mediators of the inflammatory response. However, COX-1 is not important in inflammation, but protects the lining of the stomach and intestines. After solving the structures of the two COX enzymes, scientists were able to design several molecules from scratch that would only inhibit COX-2 and not COX-1. These hit the market a couple years ago under the generic names celecoxib and rofecoxib, or trade names of Celebrex and Vioxx, for treatment of osteoarthritis. I think we've all seen the commercials.
I was actually in the study at Stanford, and although I wasn't sure I was on the drug, I did feel more alert and awake.
;)
Its not a very pleasant feeling to know you should go to bed, but not be able to go to bed late at night (this would happen when I took the pills around noon instead of around 9 or 10 when I was supposed to take them). I'd be up until 3 pm with no desire to go to bed. While that's great for all-night coding binges, it sucks when there's no good TV on.
I would not recommend these for anyone except people with sleeping disorders, since the body requires sleep to rest muscles and revitalize the brain. It will be a long time before this is an over-the-counter drug (if ever).
If you are interested in learning more about sleep research, I'd recommend reading:
Power Sleep by James Maas
The Promise of Sleep by a the founder of the Stanford Sleep Clinic
The pharmacokinetics and tolerability of modafinil (Provigil)
http://www.modafinil.com/dosage.html
-jcb
Is a metabolic problem. Not rocket science...
I'm very certain I'm not the only one who's felt that 24 hours in a day is not nearly enough time. I did some math, and theorized that it is possible to create a 6 day week, with 28 hour days. It's actually pretty simple, but I have never had the opportunity to attempt it.
We start with the knowledge that 7*24=168=6*28.
Now, my plan is to be awake for 20 hours, and sleep for 8. Here's how it maps out:
Day 1: Sun 0000 - Mon 0359
Day 2: Mon 0400 - Tue 0759
Day 3: Tue 0800 - Wed 1159
Day 4: Wed 1200 - Thu 1559
Day 5: Thu 1600 - Fri 1959
Day 6: Fri 2000 - Sat 2359
And the cycle repeats. Now, if only I could get a couple weeks to test it out...
Okay. I've been on this drug. It's important to remember that it enhances alertness. It does not keep you from sleeping. I was able to nap if I chose to. It was prescribed for EDS (Excessive Daytime Sleepiness, not the other one!)
It had very few side effects that I was aware of. The biggest one was a slight head rush about 10-20 minutes after taking a dose.
I was on Provigil for about a month until my sleep apnea was finally treated properly (CPAP) and in my case it was definitely a life saver. Prior to taking it, I was actually falling asleep at work, at stoplights, and in the bathtub (glug)
As far as more recreational uses, I'd have to say that unless you absolutely have to stay awake, go to sleep. Besides, replacement of caffeine by something else would lead to the breakdown of modern society and the end of the world as we know it!
Xibalba: My hell. Your hell. Our hell!
Your interpretation of the study you cite is flawed.
All the study said was "we took a bunch of people, sorted them by the time the slept, and noticed that the people who slept less live longer".
I could also say that heart disease causes smoking, since I could take a bunch of people, sort them by the health of their hearts, and notice that the sicker folk tend to smoke.
What if, in the set of people who slept longer, there was a disproportionate number of sick individuals (sleep apnea, chronic allergies, whatever). They might be sleeping more because they are sick, and have shorter lifespans because they are sick.
The way you would prove the hypothesis that "less sleep is good for you" would be to take a set of people selected to be of the same level of general health, measure their natural sleep patterns, then take half that group and reduce their sleep time by 20%. Then wait and measure the effect on their lifespans. That way, you factor out the effects of the health of the individuals.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Infection was one of the most commonly observed
adverse events, occurring in 5% or more of
modafinil-treated patients (Prod Info Provigil(R),
1998).
and get up and go to work at 07:30. I never knew there was a name for it.
But it catches up with you.
My idea of geting up late on Saturday morning was 04:00 Sunday morning.
That really fucks up you biorythms.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
When I was 18 and naive I was impressed with smart-drugs and the whole cyberpunk idea. I seemed to have no reason to live other than to live in the insane and exciting world of cyberpunk. It was utterly kewl. I thought I'd be happy to live 40 years but what a ride it would be. I'm glad I found other ideas in/of life.
.. cybernetic implants/anything that might come in that line. A neverending race for competitivness. But I doubt very much those questions will be anything more than questions, since there's so much money to be made with all this stuff. And in todays world that's all that matters. A bit sad, that's all.
The ethical questions are fundamentally the same for any conventional drugs, stimulants, smart-drugs and
I agree, coke is fucking weak. For me, it only lasts half an hour. Coffeine is stronger, but I get all jittery on higher dose/day 2. (I took it in pills, cause I hate the taste of coffee) Crystal is best - you are up for up to 3 days (it
goes downhill after that), your head is crytal-clear (pun intended) and you get tons of work done due to all that extra noradrenaline. And there are indeed plently of people who can keep their crack habit under control, contrary to popular belief. Ephedrine is OK, very much like
mild speed, but gram for gram it is a stronger cardiovascular stimulant than speed (ie ups your heart rate and temperature to larger extent) Useful to burn some fat, but may not be what you want. You want mental stimilation, not physical, right?
Up until Vietnam, they used a lot of meth for just that purpose.
Any drug that is strong enough to have marked good effects will be liked strongly enough that some people will have habits and problems with it. You can't get away from this: the only legal highs are the ones that suck.
for e.g., many of you are cafiene addicts
meep
I'm on an incident response team, and I would love to be able to have these on hand. There have been times when I've already been sleep-deprived, only to have to jump on a plane and do 100 hours of high-pressure work over the next 5 days. I typically go through two entire tins of Warp mints during this...I'd really like something that doesn't feel quite so rough!
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
For the ubergeek this might be fine but for atheletes I'm not sure I'd recommend it.
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
I was a coffee fiend for some years.
Then I was really into green tea.
For around 9 months though, I've been enjoying Yerba Maté instead.
Maté is from South America. Whether it contains actual caffeine is a little controversial, but what's clear is it contains mateine, theophylline and theobromine, all gentle stimulants.
Here in Southern California, there are local stores that stock it. You can also buy it over the internet.
You can enjoy it the traditional way: with a gourd and a straw (bombilla). Or you can use a drip coffee maker. Or you can use a french press. Or you can use a tea ball. Personally, I use a gourd whenever I can, but for meetings or when I'll be driving, a french press works out better.
It gives you this "no internal impediments to my thinking" feeling that's really great. It increases your REM sleep. It contains tons of vitamins and minerals (so much that I had to cut my multivitamin dosage), great antioxidants (anticancer, antiaging), and a good bit of choline, the precursor to acetylcholine, an important neurotransmitter in your brain.
I'm very glad I switched, though I still dabble in green tea once in a while.
I don't sell this stuff, though my coworkers claim I'm a maté salesman.
1) Caffeine is addictive. People don't just drink caffeine to stay awake, caffeine junkies drink it because if they don't, they hurt.
2) This is probably a great alternative to cns stimulants. IT probably IS much, much easier on your body and hence safer.
3) #2 does not mean that you still don't need sleep, it just means you don't have to deal with the jittery side effects of most CNS stimulants when you need to avert nature and stay awake. You STILL need to (and invariably will) catch up on lost sleep.
My pet (rat?) theory is that the brain, while awake, is in 'recieve' mode, regardless of how much or little we are actively 'thinking' at any given time. REM level sleep is when the input effectively stops (except for a few low-level threads to detect breaks in the sound/environmental impression patterns that have been proven over time to imply a 'safe/uneventful' night's sleep - until your child cries or a thief breaks a window in the basement) and our cpu can sift through the data, keeping some bits, tossing others, and making all sorts of connections and projections with our existing 'database' of knowledge, impressions and experiences. When deprived of REM level sleep, our brains never get to relax and assimilate what they have recieved, but try to anyways, leading to the hallucinations and such.
The deprivation is as frustrating and alarming to our system (over a longer term) as being deprived of air or water. The body/mind goes into Panic mode eventually in the effort to extricate itself from whatever situation is causing the deprivation. All these factors stack up and grow worse over time with extended deprivation.
Sleep and Dreams, essentially, are when our brains get to breathe.
**>>BELCH
I think this could have very deffinate aplication, because nomatter what branch of the service there comes a time when something has to be done in a certain ammount of time, there are only a handfull of people to do it, and lives depend on it. The navy trains specificaly so that you can do a full day of work, work all night and then do annother full day of work. With a drug like this, the inherant fatigue and incompetence that comes from sleep dep could be averted allowing the job to get done better and faster
I like replies better than Karma, even if they are flames, because that tells me I got someone thinking.
It works pretty well. My doc has me on it in conjunction with some depression meds since I have trouble feeling awake during the day and concentrating. I haven't noticed any side effects (like feeling stupid that someone else mentioned), although the first few days I was on it, I was awake for 36 hours, asleep for 12. But after a week, I settled into a good 8 sleep, 16 awake. And I feel 100% better. I can actually wake up in the morning(!), assuming I go to bed before 12. I don't think this drug would be a good replacement for sleeping. It would definitely help you feel more awake, but aside from the adapting period at the start, it's not something that will keep you awake for days on end. And besides... it's EXPENSIVE. Way more than my other meds... thank goodness for insurance.
Experiments must be reproducible; they should all fail in the same way.
Do not try to follow this "Uberman's Sleep Cycle"! What is being described here is exactly what the nuerological disorder narcolepsy does to a person. In fact, it may be exactly this sort of stress that triggers a genetically latent disposition towards narcolepsy.
Narcolepsy is a disorder of the chemical triggering of dreaming for which there is currently no known cure. People with this problem naturally go from waking to dreaming in a few minutes after going to sleep. The result is that they get very little of the deepest sleep that is needed to really be rested.
Note that the person who wrote about this "Uberman's Sleep Cycle" even claimed the uncontrollable need to take naps every several hours after doing this to himself. This sort of thing is dangerous!
Uncontrollable drowsiness is inconvenient at best (falling asleep at work, in class, during conversations at dinner parties) and fatal at worst (falling asleep at the wheel is the number one cause of auto accidents...yes, it outranks drunk driving).
I am a narcoleptic, and I can tell you that the consequences of having a screwed up sleep mechanism are not fun. If you actually manage to "adjust yourself", you can also reasonably expect other effects such as sleep paralysis, extreme hallucinations (trust me; you don't want this...psychedelics can be fun, but real hallucinations are generally quite disconcerting), and cataplexy (dream seizures which cause you to momentarily lose control of your muscles...with effects ranging from mildly embarrasing to quite dangerous).
From the perspective of someone who has narcolepsy and has experienced some of the horrors that it can cause to your life, I implore you not to do this to yourself. Healthy sleep is very important for a healthy mind and body, and it is unwise to risk your ability to get good sleep for the rest of your life.