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Microsoft Shuts Down Lik Sang
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has taken legal action, shutting down popular import gaming site Lik Sang for distributing X-box mod chips. Lik Sang is a popular import gaming site based out of Hong Kong. The full article (MSNBC) can be found here." Several people have pointed to the same story on news.com.
Microsoft doesn't shut people down. Therefore, modchips must really, really piss them off.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
So MS can shut down an entire company for selling one product they don't like (selling a mod chip is not illegal where Liksang is located) by slapping them with a legal action?
It just goes to show you how abusive MS is, as if you needed any more evidence.
Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market. Cracking down on this will drive Microsofts target audience away. Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
The companies who make those crappy CPU fans and cases that don't fit right and just cut your fingers
The people who make those really crappy NICs and video cards
The people who make those little screwdrivers that band or strip on the first thing you take apart with them
The companies that make those $2 keyboards and $1 mice I find at every company who's too cheap to buy decent stuff.
Many people yelled that it was just an upgrande and M$ was not telling me what to do with **MY** hardware. Well bite me, I knew M$ would prove me right.
I dont own an X-box, I dont own a mod chip, but M$ continues with the attitude that you will use this the way we want you to use this, you will not dieveate at all from our buisness plan or we will label you a pirate and sue your sorry butt..
I hate to ell you this AC its none of your damn buisness if I want to run Linux or back up my games (and YES I BACK UP EVERYTHING I OWN!).
drive Microsofts target audience away
Somehow I doubt that Microsoft's target audience is hackers that will only purchase xbox, either out of spite or desire to hack it. Microsoft's target audience, which by the way couldn't care less about mod chips, are gamers who buy the box and lots of games to play, not those who buy the box to not play games.
g to the oatse
c to the izzex
Hey, dipshit, it's called "mainly non-infringing." Just because "MS sez so" is not a valid reason for them to say you can't modify your hardware and them attempting to enforce it by shutting down those who disagree with their team of lawyers. Your opinion on running anything on the Xbox means about as much to me as anyone else's opinion means to you -- nothing. So, what you should bitch about is that MS *IS* finding yet another way to exercise their monopoly power, even in foreign markets. Yay.
So why don't you take the first step and vote with your dollars? Buy the nice stuff instead of bitching after buying from the crappy ones.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
haiku
add architecture
without the borg's consent?
enlist the lawyers.
\haiku
This space for rent.
What will be interesting is how they did and on what grounds.
I was actually waiting to hear that the chips were being stopped at the border by Customs for violating the DMCA ala Serial Cables Illegal Due to DMCA?. Apparently MS had something else in mind.
Hmmm... Sony allows mod chips, stock goes up. Microsoft doesn't allow modchips, stock goes down. Go get 'em Microsoft!!
Related Quotes
Quotes delayed 20+ minutes
MICROSOFT CORP MSFT 44.94 -0.67
SONY CORP ADR SNE 40.84 0.18
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
The legality of xbox mod chips is ambiguous at best. Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them, but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc. Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.An easily accessible modchip that allows for people to NOT need to buy games for their xbox is a bad thing. Atleast for Microsoft.
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
It's one thing to restrict the sales of bullets and guns to infants, but mod chips aren't exactly something which is a danger to society. What are they used for? Modifications to behaviour of a device.
Unless there was a market force demanding it, they wouldn't sell well enough that people would keep buying them. See also region free DVD players. They're just as popular now as ever, because people want the freedom in their products.
And that doesn't take into account the fact that once I buy something, it's mine. I own it, I do with it as I please. If I want to rip the top off my Xbox, shit in it, and then grow a plant out of that moist, fertile soil -- that's my business. Microsoft has as much business stopping the sales of mod chips as they do teaching mothers how to breastfeed.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Perhaps the best fight-back method would be to make the instructions for creating mod-chips more publicly available. In this case, every little shop would eventually proliferate them, and it would become too difficult to chase everyone down.
Of course, in a business sense this is a really bad idea, as it just creates competition. But in a hardware-modders right-to-change-my-property, fight the machine sense it would be nice.
Easybuy.
For now, at least.
Note: I have no affiliation with LikSang, or EasyBuy - they're just pretty similar. LikSang had a larger variety of video-game oriented products, but EasyBuy has most of the more popular modchips as well.
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
I'm already reading stuff on here from users about how MS is now telling them what to do with the property they bought. This is NOT what is happening! You as a user can open up your XBox and hack the hardware as much as you want, hack it so it bypasses whatever security's in there, they won't care. However, take that hack and turn it into a business for yourself by manufacturing hardware and selling it IS what they will move against. In my opinion, they have every right to do that, and it has nothing to do with a monopoly on anything. Just my opinion! Comments?
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Could NCSX be next? They don't sell modchips, but they do sell pre-modded systems for playing multi-region games. Far from hurting Microsoft, yes...but we know how nasty those lawyers get when they haven't had anything to do in a while...
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Man, if you buy a freaking console you might think that it actually belongs to you... WRONG! It appears that just like with software you just pay a one-time lease and don't have the right to do anything with it beyond what the producer thinks is ok? (Just like in the software sector it makes no sense to go after the individual, of course, so they just shut down large distributors.) Does this strike anyone else as wrong somehow? Or am I just an evil anti-corporate activist?
Wow, since I cant get my mod chips off Lik Sang, next time Microsoft asks me "Where do I want to go today?", Ill be sure to say "Hong Kong, so I can buy my mod chip"...
... Micro$oft has just announced the availability of the Monopoly game for the Xbox.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.
What the hell is "unauthorized software", when did Micro$haft get the right to tell me what LEGAL sw I can run on MY bought and paid for hardware.
Wake-up you dumb-ass American comsumers your about to get the big one up your shaft!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Lik-Sang had the best stuff! You could buy Gameboy Advance Flash card from them. That allows you to put any NES games or GBA games on your Gameboy. SO illegal, but so fun! MOD chips for every system. It was a nice site with nice goodies, but this stuff was VERY not nice to the game companies!
I used to order flash carts from lik-sang so I could write my own GBA/GBC applications. [re: I'm a software developer].
Now that they don't exist I will have to find another supplier and go through the time to build up trust with them etc...
These time of summary judgements are really shameful. At beast MS should have formed an injunction against them selling Xbox chips. The other stuff [e.g. GBA accessories] are not illegal nor "bad".
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Voting with $$$ doesn't really work anyway. Microsoft has so much money it doesn't matter, besides, they use packs of lawyers to whittle away at what ever consumer freedoms we still have left.
(Corporate lawyers have done a great job at destroying the United States' ability to revoke corporate charters since the end of the Civil War.)
I used to order flash carts from lik-sang so I could write my own GBA/GBC applications.
Game Gizmo still has GBA flash carts. I'm a developer too; unfortunately, my site is down because my ISP seems to have blocked incoming connections to my computer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market.
Please show me the #s. I seriously doubt that the vast majority of console buyers have even heard of mod-chips, let alone are interested in getting one.
Consoles are commodity items purchased by people that aren't geeks, haven't read Slashdot, and probably don't have 3 Linux boxes in their home office.
The infinitesimal percentage of XBOX owners that also purchased a mod chip doesn't come close to making a mod chip a "value add" for the console(ignoring your incorrect useage of that term).
If you want:
To play games, get a game cube or ps2.
To run linux, get a computer or PS2.
If you want a big ugly black useless box get an XBOX.
Xboxes are useless, they are just a crippled celeron pc.
Sony slaps PS2 chippers
that doesnt read like they are somebody who "allows mod chips"
*We are Microsoft. Open your wallets and surrender your cash. We will add your biological and technological distinctivess to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. Where *YOU* want to go today, is irrelevant.*
Not to mention what you want to mod today.
At least, in the group of people I know. I only know of one person out of the dozens of people I know who play video games who deals with pirated games a lot, and even then it's hard to say which games are pirates and which games are backup copies.
Does the XBox have regional lockout like other consoles do?
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
So you spend the time and money to back up game DVDs? Sorry, I dont buy it. Its not cost effective to do that.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Ummmm....
Here's my understanding of 'normal' economics.
Playstation 2 drops price, GameCube drops price, suddenly XBOX is the expensive guy on the block.
MS can now:-
drop the price to try and gain market share.
drop persueing a new market that it has no experiance in.
Become a neich product and try better next time.
Most normal companies would have to drop out of the market because they can't afford to keep up with the competition. MS isn't normal.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
.. a couple years back, lik-sang had a similar run-in with nintendo over the N64 backup devices. They eventually got N to back off after they decided not to ship any units to North and Central America.
Perhaps the same type of thing could happen with MSFT.
Though I wonder if the mod in question, the PC-BIOXX/OpenXbox, counts as illegal. It is, in essence, a blank flashROM.
You attach it to the xbox, and completely replace the xbox' bios with whatever you flash to the chip. So it could be used to run a hacked xbox bios that plays pirated code, it could be used to run the linux bios, or it could be used to run the retail bios (if the one on the mobo got fried).
You could even use it on a PC mobo just as easily, if you wanted to play BIOS hacker. It's just a plain-vanilla 2mbit flashrom for the LPC header.
I mean, is the device itself illegal just because it has some illegal use?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I want to know is does anyone know how I can get one of the Lik-Sang gameboy covers that's already Pre-cut for the afterburner. I mean Lik -sang had plenty of legitimate things for sale(assuming a mod-chip is illegal, which is up for debate). I can see getting them to stop selling Mod Chips, But shutting down the company,? That's not right.
-Mishra
...
LikSang were a major distributer for the fledgling GP32.
They are (were?) the only place for people like me, in the UK, to get the games at a decent price. I've bought £100's of item from them... rare DC games that aren't available here, a DC BBA, smart media readers... and the aforementioned GP32 and software.
How the HELL can Microsoft shut down a company in another country?
I tell you, this world is getting more f*cked up, day by day.
-John
I started this when I bought a game (civ2) which got scratched a short time later and I was told tuff by the company (I dont think they should have to replace it but if they dont have to I should be able to back it up).
Imagine a day when it will be illegal to crack open a pc and ad an MPEG decoder. Unless it is sanctioned by Microsoft of course. Thats where this is headed folks.
~ Maintainer of the Skajake Projects
Go for it dude. Just figure out how to make your own mod chip and you can back up all the shit you want.
Live web cams
They're against piracy just the same. They aren't out to stop those who are tinkering though.
But xboxhacker.net also seems to be down. Coincindence or M$ ploy to wipe out all modchip sites?
I lived in USSR, and I know what bribes are. Because hongkong is part of china and china is highly corrupt , i would see no other way to pull such trick but by pay off some officals there, directly for shutting down of the site.
What do we call that here? - Political campaign contributions.
2c
p
Microsoft designed an expensive box. PS2 and GameCube were designed better. Economics, as you put it, would dictate that Microsoft start a new design and beat the competition.
Detroit designed expensive to build cars and Japan beat them. Would you think it proper for Detroit to have shut down the Japanese car makers?
Infuriate left and right
Do you not like Microsoft? Then buy an XBox and use it with Linux or something, don't buy any games. If they're really making such a loss on the hardware itself... Just an idea.
This is my big question - Would Chevy shut me down if I made a mod kit to put a Ford engine in my Camaro? (This is hypothetical, of course, what nutbag would ever do that?)
Perhaps, MAYBE, I can see them being a little upset at mods that allow you to run illegally copied games, but a lot of the MOD chips I've seen are so you can run other region's discs, and/or run an OS like linux. Why is this a crime? Maybe I'm just reading too superficially into the whole thing. It just irks me.
If I recall correctly the MPAA tried to get Beta pulled from the shelves because you could copy movies. The courts ruled that just because a device has possible illegal uses, if it had legit uses, it was legal.
Where did that concept go?
Just because I can stab someone with a knife doesn't mean we should ban all knives. How would I eat steak?
Microsoft doesn't want people to have the right to do what they wish with the products they buy.
Yes, these modchips facilitate piracy. But they also have legitimate uses on every console they exist for. Not to mention that people should be able to use the modchip for "copied" games so long as those are backup copies.
Lik Sang offered plenty of legitimate products for people who enjoy modding their consoles, tinkering, homebrew developmenet, etc. Of course, Microsoft doesn't want people to tinker and mod for ANY reason, because this undermines the next step in MS's business plan.
Microsoft is trying very hard to establish a sense that you don't own your X-Box, but they do. With Palladium, they are going to extend that idea to the PC... you don't own your computer... MS does.
Microsoft is going to use their money and power to take out any companies like Lik Sang in the future that give people the ability to mod their X-Box, or mod their PC's hardware after Palladium is released.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Actually, in some areas (even in the United States), it's illegal to have lock picking equipment in your posession without a permit. It is considered sufficient reason to arrest you on conspiracy to commit breaking and entering. Ditto for having a police scanner in a moving vehicle... some states outlaw it under the belief that it's a conspiracy to commit evasion.
geez just when i was about to get a mod from them, M$ had to pull off this stunt ...
I guess there aint many online ecom/retailers like lik sang =(
the rest is more of making a quick profit and offers little information like lan kwei, alot of fancy pictures and ridiculus pricing but not much of technical details =(
I hooked my CD player into my "Cassette" input on my receiver because my DAT machine is already hooked up there. Wouldn't ya know it, when the thing died a year later (within the warranty) the company said I'd violated the agreement I had tacitly signed by opening the shrinkwrap.
Silly me. I guess they do have a right to defend their intellectual property. I mean, it's not as though I can configure something I bought whatever way I wish.
Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them.
Say I go buy a used '89 Chevy pickup from a used car dealership. Perfectly legal.
There's a company in town called Classic Roadsters. They've produced a modded body for the '89 line of Chevy pickups that is very similar looking to a Hummer. Perfectly legal (the body shape doesn't breach any size requirements stipulated by the DOT).
but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc.
Now, say I took that modded truck, dressed myself into some army get-up, and drove onto the local army base, pretending to belong to the armed services (I don't). Now I'm doing something illegial.
My point is this: the XBox is a piece of physical hardware. It can be patented. It cannot be licensed. Once I purchase an XBox (if I ever do), I will OWN it 100%. Nothing that Microsoft ever says or does can change that. If I want to take the bloody thing apart and turn it into a toaster oven, Microsoft can't do a thing about it.
People have outfitted their cars for over 60 years now making them better. Say I had a beat-up Ford pickup that didn't work anymore, so I put in an engine from a Dodge pickup so I could get the Ford working again (please don't tell me if this is possible or not... I don't know, but it's all for the sake of argument). I don't think Dodge or Ford would complain. I'm sure you know someone who put a new stereo system into their car. They didn't have to buy a whole new car to get that stereo system they wanted. They put one into their own car so they could have better sound. People soup up their cars all the time specifically so that they don't have to buy a new car just to get the same features. It's perfectly legal to do so. It should be perfectly legal to do the same with consoles.
Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.
Tough shit. Do you see Lincoln selling their Towncar at $9,999 brand new missing an air conditioner, and then selling air conditioners for $20,000 more? And on top of it all, making the Towncar so that no other AC would work in it except for Lincoln's own AC? Of course not! But this is what Microsoft is doing! Don't blame the customer for finding a better deal which is less profitable to Microsoft.
Micosoft is only doing what comes natural to prey. Kill or be Killed
I can add a new cat-back exaust system to my car.
I can add a new hard-drive to my computer.
I can add an aftermarkt remote for my tv.
I can add a network card to my PDA.
I can add headphone to my stereo.
I hope my sentiments express fully my displeasure:
Microsoft, your unethacal employees, and your astro-turfers here on Slasdot: suck my dick and add me to your Foes. I don't need friends like you.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
NT
HAHAHA!
This is too funny.
Microsoft, exercising one of the many holes in IIS must have screwed their machines into oblivion.
That would definately explain the server outage.
I decree that this will now be known as the M$ Effect. A company exploiting their well known software vunlerabilities in order to screw the hell out of somebody that is pissing them off.
-S
We Apprentice Developers and Designers
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Tell me thats not an abuse of power. Guess M$ is flexing their nuts eh...
And release the code and methods for modding the Xbox, rather than selling it.
I never, ever post here, mostly because Slashdot is so packed nowadays it's probably already been said. But I feel compelled.
All of you saying Microsoft has the right to do this:
Are you all complete and utter retards? Does this really have to be explained to you anew each time something actions such as this (Not necessarily by Microsoft) has been taken?
Let's try again, slowly for those of you who can't understand it.
1) Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked. Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.
2) The 'slippery slope', while being largely a strawman argument, in cases like this is perhaps valid. If you don't think ANY hardware company is absolutely DROOLING at the prospect of extending it's reach far beyond the change of posession (purchase) of a product you're living in a fantasy world. Precendents such as this will of course start with a basis in what are apparently legal and moral positions, right now in the name of stopping piracy, but there is absolutely no reason to stop there. Once you've established the precedent of extending so-called 'rights' beyond the customer taking posession of your product you have infintely more control over what they can and cannot do, spanning legal and illegal uses.
3) The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument. It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes. Drawing comparisons between the use of mod chips and free speech is more than just hyperbole, it is an attempt to illustrate that once you start allowing the restriction of something based on it's (in this case potentially) illegal uses you are setting a very dangerous precedent, and one that because of the DMCA has criminal and not just civil ramifications.
The DMCA is the bridge between a civil lawsuit brought by Microsoft and someone going to jail for making or using something that could be used to violate IP 'rights'. If you still don't believe me, ask yourself why they need the DMCA then? Why was it necessary for the government to enact legislation that allows companies and the government to take punitive actions against those who violate IP, or more accurately those who MAKE things that COULD be used to violate IP, rather than stick with civil proceedings? (Even the threat of which, I might add, seem to work just fine.) In other words, if you're going to say no one's going to get sent to jail for this, why is there a law that says you will? Do you honestly think that mod chip makers should go to jail?
4) Microsoft's choice to sell their products (X-box) at a loss does not automatically give them the legal right to take any and all action they see fit to try and make money through other means, in this case through game licenses. It's been said time and again but you still don't seem to get it, just because somebody WANTS to make money doesn't mean they GET to. It's very possible that their choice to try and pursue this method of profit is foolish and could result in failure due to the boxes being modded for uses besides purchasing the products they do make money on, but because of point (1) we may never know. By using the threat of legal action they may have secured a business model that is unavailable to other companies without as deep pockets. Do you think Microsoft would have succeeded in beating down Lik Sang if Microsoft were a small startup? (Not that X-box's major competitors, such as Sony, are small startups.) No. They can do this because of point (1), and because other companies realize the law being on their side (perhaps) is a moot point. In this case, Might Makes Right.
I hope this explains a bit to those of you comparing modding your X-Box to rolling your odometer back on your car (boggle) or simply accusing posters of being Microsoft/other large coporate entity bashers. It IS about essential rights, albeit indirectly, whether you choose to believe ir ot not.
-- If we were in any other industry they would've shot us a long time ago.
The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.
Unauthorized by who?
"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."
Xbox Modchips For Copying Games - Check out the legal opinion posted here on the legality of xbox mod chips. There are some very interesting arguments posted. It looks like these guys have done some due diligence.
(I was wondering when someone would notice...)
corrected haiku
add architecture
without the great borg's consent?
enlist the lawyers.
\corrected haiku
This space for rent.
A couple posts up you just said you did and that you backup everthing you own. Which is it? Do you or don't you or are you just a liar who is trying to score that all important Karma.
Mod me down all you want, somebody had to say it. (Caresses his lik-sang GBA flash cart)
The way it looks by http://www.lik-sang.com/downtime.phtml , They just have downtime problems.
This MS "shutdown scare" is just propaganda, as it sure-as-hell seems they aren't dead. By the way, I found this through google cache and noticed a working link on the new server.
THEY'RE REALLY UP. Give them time!
Your absolutely right... The console market is running on an outdated buisiness model. I propose that console makers should sell their consoles at a profit. Consumers will obviously choose the best console system blindly and at a price of $450+ dollars. Who needs to build a following anyways right? Parents really don't care about an upfront cost when buying a console for their kids. I know my parents would love to spend that much every holiday season...
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
Shouldn't it be "encoder"? Surely it's up to the receiver/amp to do the decoding?
The BOIS being used is a leaked copy from the XBox Devkit. A clear violation of copyright (and the contract between MS and said developer). As an XBox owner you do own a license to use the BIOS in your XBox. You do not, however, have a kicense to use the BIOS from a devkit.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
M$?
Borrowed from John McL.
:
Originally, proletaries were the class of
inhabitants of the Roman Empire
who did not serve the Impirium by
creative works or by other service,
but through their careless reproductive
habits. The word derives from the
Latin _proles_, offspring, and the word
proletariat literally means
"those with many offspring."
Ancient Rome was a slave society with
three slaves to every citizen, according to the
Tiberian Census of CE 30 or so, depending
upon the calendar you prefer.
The machinery of the Empire was literally
activated by human muscle, the battleships
of the Roman Navy being powered
by slaves and the very skeins of hair that
stored energy for the imperial _ballistae_
(artillery) grown on slaves fed for the purpose.
The slaves powering the Empire were derived from
conquered peoples and especially from the
nameless proletary class.
In modern times, the nearest equivalent
would be those who serve the corporate State
not through creative works, but through
the consumption of things they are
instructed to purchase by the media of
public information, and by their exposure of
their children to the advertisers of such things.
If you look at the history of gaming consoles, for the most part only consoles that were about to tank ended up being sold at a loss. A good example is Sega. Who sold several consoles at a loss before bailing out of the hardware business.
That's a great action. Compliments to MS, every day better to the destruction... They have touch one of the more clear face on the ModChips area. The more "clean" end-user reseller i know for my long time experience as console repair technician. To sue a company that pay 80% of the cost of a product to forward it in single piece also in Zambia if necessary, is great. I believe they sold in total 800 pieces of Xbox-modchips until now to end-user, they work only to end-users, so their volumes are very small. Lik-Sang, offer the state of the art technology on the Videogame Industry from time to time, this include sometime wrong items purchsed from third party. Is not of justice this action. To sue a small dot(one of the more clean), to gain attention is not right. Micro$oft is worry? To lost some penny in wall street? I simply realized there is none at the head of this Company, i look at them from long time... This is my feelings. MS is Strange... Any analist can understand this. All the news they control are only "fakes" to earn Money in WallSteet from Stupid Investors. MS is only a Machine to earn Money in Wallstreet, there is no-consistency of products, no head. Tons of "fakes" dayly to earn more. Peoples will understand this one day or another. I never wrong on my prediction also in 10 years of distance. Micro$oft will be in Collapse status soon, and big part of the investors will escape. They simply have nothing to do to fight the assigned Destiny, not from one people, but from many million of peoples... No money can buy and control the "real politics" and "the real things", group of peoples assign values to things, now in my opinion, MS is each day that pass, a currency that have less and less value. I want to suggest now, to who want run LINUX on Xbox to buy a Lindows machine preinstalled on wallmart.com, this is cheaper than a full Xbox and do not need installed chips to run standard PC & LINUX software...
ok, so MS may not be the most popular of the bunch, but i get the feeling that most of the resentment is about MS and not the actual issue. with that in mind, i point you to...
http://www.actsofgord.com/Annoy/chapter07.html
you see. if you want a mod chip to play stolen/copied games, you hurt the gaming business in general. so chill out about it and realize that your dishonesty is wrong!
Xbox Mod Chips for Copying Games Based on what's posted here, I'm not so sure it's a simple case of copyright infringement. This post doesn't address the actual bios argument, but there are other legal opinions posted here on the legality of xbox mod chips. There are some very interesting arguments posted. It looks like these guys have done some due diligence.
Where did [the concept of substantial non-infringing use] go?
Non-infringing use is not always substantial. For instance, Napster had a non-infringing use, but seeing as how over 90% of napster users shared files that they didn't have the right to share, such non-infringing use was not substantial.
Besides, the DMCA that's currently on the books doesn't always allow for even substantial non-infringing uses.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Microsoft may be in a disadvantageous economic situation, but since when does copyright law have anything to do with protecting companies from bad pricing situations?
If I run a pizza parlour, and the guy across the street is pricing me out of business, it would sure be nice if the cops showed up and put him out of business. That doesn't make it right for me to anonymously accuse him of running a drug ring.
This all really indicates that we need some standardized "Game Box" hardware. Standardization is what spawned the PC revolution. I think the same can happen in a Game Box / Set-top Box device. Then we don't have to worry about proprietary standards from MS and Sony.
The box could come with basic software but have a new OS changed by simply changing the compact flash card.
The following features could be supported:
hardware:
-low power requirements
- x86 with enough power to play Divx and DVD
- DVD/CDR player
- two or more game pads
- remote control unit
- wireless keyboard
- wireless mouse
- ethernet or 802.11
- CF Card for OS boot so it can be easily upgraded by non tech people
Software:
- TV Tuner
- TV Recorder
- DVD Playback
- CD Audio Playback with CDDB lookup
- Divx Playback
- MP3 Playback
- OGG Playback
- SNES Emulator
- PS2 Emulator
pop the origional in a mac and copy it while I make dinner/sleep/work.
Not if the original is dual-layer. Some PS2 games and all Xbox and GameCube games are dual-layer, or at least recorded on the second layer if single-layer. (The spiral on the second layer goes inward rather than outward.) DVD-R discs have only a first layer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I don't own a modchip. I don't even own an XBox. But this really makes me mad. Next will Ford be going after Edelbrock, Bosch, Fram, or other third-party manufacturers? Of course not, because thie whole thing is LUDICROUS. Some companies are under the DELUSION that computer equipment is somehow different than every other freaking industry on the planet. It's not. You plunk down $200, whether for an XBox, a VCR, or an intake manifold, IT'S YOURS. Install it, and at worst you VOID YOUR WARRANTY. Period.
/rant on
/rant off
Mr. Gates! Yes, you! Why do you think I spent an extra $1600 to buy an extra laptop, for the SOLE purpose of learning how to use Linux? Can't you take a friggin hint? Wake up pal, because your company is dead to me. My dollars are going to YOUR COMPETITORS.
If this turns out anything like the satellite-received modifying industry, chances are MS will never catch *everybody* and it will become somewhat of an long and tedius battle over time.
The satellite-mod industry may be a bad example though, I know people who have paid tons more for a modified received than they would have actually paying for the channels themselves (though at the moment, we can't get American sat legally in Canada, or at least not here).
Fuck em. I like PS2 just fine, and I can find new and used games for it.
Americans tinker with their toys. Deny that ability through egineering or legal threat, and we will find something else to play with.
People have established that Microsoft isn't attacking hackers directly. If you want to open up your xbox and piss on the circuits, BillyBorg can't stop you. If you manufacture and sell commercially a means to circumvent or alter their code, they can. The real question is, why?
Basically, MS could care less about someone making money doing this. What they really care about is what this enables. A commercial outfit, manufacturing and selling components *enables* virtually all people to purchase xboxes with the *intent* of using them for alternate purposes. If they leave hack-shops unchecked for long, they have basically allowed a competing market to develop against what they really want to sell - games and service.
If I want to purchase an xbox because I want to mod it AND I know I can just buy a chip online with ease, Microsoft would rather not sell me the xbox in the first place. Since they can't discriminate against buyers, they can make it more difficult for me to purchase a chip. Microsoft is not targetting the hardcore hackers. If you want to hack an xbox that badly and you have the skills, you'll do it. Who they *are* targetting is the average Joe Sixpack who buys an xbox. If he buys it and later sees he can easily purchase and install a mod to do things like play pirated games or run a webserver, Microsoft has just lost marketshare in the market that counts.
THAT's what they are trying to stop. Not hacking, but the widespread usage of manufactured mods by average users.
But in any case, this is pointless. I can buy a PS2 with a pirate mod chip in Mexico City for $100. Pirated games are $4 a pop. Microsoft can only go after the high-profile ones but they can't completely choke off piracy. Just like Sony can't, either.
There will be other people in other countries that can and will do this sort of thing and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. When you get big enough, of course, expect the BSA or whatever to come knocking on the door. Duh.
the above post has been submitted to the FBI for determining possible action against the poster
It's a long way from making it illegal to modify your odometer to making it illegal to sell the tools to do so.
FYI, The reason that the story is the same for MSNBC and news.com is that MSNBC has a utility you can download which can give you headline alerts - big stories from MSNBC, tech stories from C|Net, etc. When you get a C|Net story the site you get directed to is msnbc-cnet.com.com, which is the same site as news.com.com with a different URL. When you go anywhere else on the C|Net site you're still on msnbc-cnet.com.com, so the site isn't really MSNBC at all, it's just a way to see who came from the utility.
Schnapple
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's a lot of "This is typical of M$", "Antitrust ... etc.", and "This just goes to show they have too much power," going around.
BS. Plain and simple.
This is STANDARD industry practice. Do some research before you start going off on a big rant about how evil MS is. (Which may be true, but not because of this. lol)
Sony has sued or threatened to sue just about EVERY SINGLE mod-chip maker and retailer during the last year. They have threatened and/or sued installers and resellers of mod chips, as well as sued the mod chip makers into the ground multiple times.
Nintendo isn't much better. But Sony has been hyper-aggresive about this. I have friends in Germany who run a console modding business, yet refuse to do anything related to the PS2 due to Sony's legal threats to them.
This is not a Microsoft thing. It is a console thing. That's all there is to it.
-Jayde
What's a sig?
i always thought most linux users hate microsoft so why the hell would they buy an xbox to run linux??
I don't give a darn WHAT the EULA says. EULA isn't exactly a strong legal document
Of course the phrase "strong legal document" isn't particularly refined, so we could quibble about your menaing. But if you mean that a EULA isn't generally enforceable, and if legal obligations and rights aren't affected thereby, you haven't been reading the case reporters lately (or, really, for the past few years).
Particularly after the 7th Circuit ProCD case and the more recent Bowers decision out of the Federal Circuit, statements like the above are, at best, naive.
The only votes that matter here are thouse you make with your pocketbook and your feet.
If you find Microsoft's products and policies, particularly XBOX, offensive, don't buy them. I have no idea whether or not Hong Kong law permits this action to be taken, but it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, if a proprietary locked-down box doesn't do it for you, say so -- FOR REAL -- and buy a box from their competitors instead.
You're a brave soul to toss an adult opinion into this den of pubescent hormones. You'll be castigated as if you were pulling the rug out from under Peter Pan and all the little children in NeverNever Land. If you are really lucky, you might attract a nibble from an otherwise coherent grownup who happens to think that open source/free software is a philosophy capable of running the world, rather than an alternative software development model.
Mostly, though, what goes on here is just a bunch of metaphoric foot stomping. E.g.: MS, the DMCA, and the RIAA are all evil. Someone should do something. But not me. I still need to buy my games and my music. Still gotta be a trained consumer doing what I'm supposed to do. Me, me me; mine mine, mine
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Because once they sell you the product, they have no legal rights to it anymore.
We used to be able to buy software and music, but now we just buy a license to be able to use the software / music.
I wonder how long it will be before someone tries that with durable consumer goods? It is sort of like that with leasing a car - you don't own it, you just have the right to use it for a certain period of time...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
If the Mass majority of gamers never heard of a MOD Chip, then why oh why would Microsoft, the company with enough bad press already, be going after small frys like Lik-sang, Who sell their games, their systems, and accessories.
The infinitesimal percentage of owners have Microsoft worried about something.
A.C.
Let's educate the public and let them now why
we use mod chips! It's not to steal. It's so we
can develop and use our own games, instead of paying thousands of dollars for an official development kit, mod chips allow us to use Linux to
develop games.
MICROSOFT IS EVIL! BOYCOTT MICROSOFT!
here is a link to xbox mod chips
http://www.consultorlinux.com
lets hope ms does not shut down all sites with mod chips.
if ford could get rid of the trucks 2" off the ground slow ass drivers with neon and bass pouring out that rattles the rust in the 1/4 panels it's a small price to pay...
FYI, it was announced today that Charles James, current head of AntiTrust division at DoJ, and who crafted the sell-out settlement, is resigning to become Cheveron's general counsel. Article is here.
If games are so bloody important to so many people who loathe Microsoft, how come there isn't a viable Linux game industry?
Any chance some people hate paying for games more than they hate MS?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
And the DMCA can be invoked here. The XBox is a patented device, and the DMCA was designed specifcally to stop hacking of patented systems. Don't like it, that's fine, but the Ford analogy isn't quite valid here.
Lik Sang is done - at least for now.
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Although it's a very cool idea to install Linux on a Microsoft console, why get all bothered by it when Microsoft cries foul? Go buy a PS2 or GameCube. PS2 already has Linux for its console. Besides from what I've been reading, Xbox isn't doing to good in the "videogame console wars". I seriously believe that Xbox will go the way of the Atari Jaguar or Sega CD.
-Dipster
I can see it now, Lik-Sang's homepage, obviously hacked by Microsoft... "Hacked by Borgese"
(in case you don't get the joke, Borg == M$, and some Chinese hacker defaced a lot of web pages with the text "Hacked by Chinese)
--pi
I got my dreamcast long before the "Boot Disk" came out, and to play jap games i needed a region selectable mod chip.
If you thing Sony and Nintendo didn't have the cash to shutdown Lik-Sang, well, there's a second reason for me to think you're an idiot.
You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.
They didn't shutdown Lik-Sang because they realized people don't like soldering crap to their expensive consoles, and there really wasn't a big effect on piracy here. Microsoft just went after them because they're obstinate bastards who want to defeat the linux xbox hackers at all cost. Both the hackers and Microsoft are motivated by ideology--linux on Xbox is without value to hackers and without cost to Microsoft--hell, Sony even sells linux kits to encourage people to develop ps2 development skills.
It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING. Sony charges a few hundred bucks for there linux kit, and i'm sure if Microsoft wanted the xbox to be a pc, then they too would release something or some 3rd party developer would do the deed.
Yeah, modchips sure ruined the life of PS2 and PS1
Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.
Bottom line, the hardware belongs to however buys it, not whoever sells it. That's what "buying stuff" means.
Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can? Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? no company is going to admit you have this right and they will do whatever it takes to protect there rights. If its right or wrong in your opinion it doesn't mean you can call me an idiot for having my own.
Product manufacturers are liable for there product useage to an extent. Microsoft is liable to its share holders, its developers and the consumers of its products. Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?
There are less xboxes on the prowl than ps2's.... therefore people buy more ps2 modchips. So more people would (presumably) pirate more ps2 games,and Sony loses money, leaving the xbox alone, thus letting microsoft rake in more money..
ok stupid theory but whatever, its microsoft bashing.
1. Get government arts grant to buy 1000 X Boxes.
2. Sculpt giant phallus out of X Boxes.
3. Go on tour across the country displaying giant X-Box Phallus.
(4. Profit?)
Why does he have to figure it out? Someone else already did, and then, they did this other thing everyone used to know about - they started a business based on a product which they invented and manufactured, and they sold that product. And perhaps this guy bought that product.
You're like the tenth person in here to insist that it's A-OK to mod something, but only if you figure it all out yourself. What bullshit! Better get in the car you made yourself in the garage and drive down to your field to harvest the crops you grew so you can eat tonight on the kitchen table you built. What? You mean you BOUGHT ALL THOSE THINGS?! ILLEGAAAAAAAAAALLLLLL!
If the lock on the door isn't good enough, you don't make lickpicks illegal, you make a better lock. People selling my software illegally make me mad; governments who allow industry to limit my consumer rights make me livid.
'Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.' - George Gordon
Who decides what profits they're entitled to and hence what constitutes "cheating"? The console makers came up with a new, arbitrary set of rules: "we know you think you bought this cosole, but you can't do anything with it we don't authorize." But who says they're allowed to make up that rule? The DMCA? Do you believe the DMCA is a good law? Then stop reading. You're beyond help.
In most informed people's opinion the DMCA is a legislative anathema, to be ignored through civil disobedience and hopefully overturned, either in the courts or the legislature, ASAP. Even with the DMCA, you have to convince a court that the mod chip lacks a significant non-infringing use - far from an open-and-shut case in my book.
Lik-sang gives you equipment and instructions to modify your console. You can buy it and not use it. You can buy it to install Linux on your XBox (a very cheap linux box with hot graphics and a TV out... interesting!). You can install it and make backups of games you own. No crime has been committed, even under the DMCA, by you, Lik-Sang, or anyone else.
Use your mod chip to steal a game? Then you've committed a crime. Not the mod chip maker, or reseller, or UPS for bringing it to your door, or a telecom company for carrying the ecommerce transaction... not anyone else. You. No one else.
That's why the DMCA is bad. It makes a ridiculous bargain with not only our works but our speech, obligating us to guard against possible infringement in advance! Can you imagine how absurd? This is totally incompatible with common sense, let alone with prevailing 1st amendment law. How does anyone know what you'll do with any particular work or speech? The government cannot and should not become the arbiter of speech or acts to insure that it might not "potentially" assist in violating someone's copyright. Not even if IP was our sole industry - and it's not; in fact, it's so tiny in comparison to the size of our economy that this kind of protectionism's negative effects on research, debate and commerce will vastly outweigh any benefit in reduction of piracy.
The unwritten part of the DMCA is that anything that has the potential to threaten the profits of an IP producer is fair game for prosecution, and whether or not there's a victory prosecution is often a victory in itself. It's called a "chilling effect." Look it up.
In principle I would love to give Microsoft a way to have a fool-proof business model of allowing consumers to ammortize hardware costs up-front with subsidies through software sales down the line (the console business model in brief), but it is insane to sacrifice our freedoms provide them with guarantees, not to mention unnecessary. The model doesn't have to be fool-proof to work, and every hardware maker knows they are on thinner ice insisting they can dictate what you can and can't do with your property. Is Microsoft guaranteed to have people do what Microsoft wants when they take their xbox home? Absolutely not. Buy it as a cheap jukebox and DVD player, and never touch a game. Run linux on it if you're clever. Microsoft just lost $150 bucks (since the console costs more to make than its retail price)!
Feel bad for them? They knew the rules of the game, and changing them to make a bad idea work is not how things should go in the world. Mod chips don't cheat them out of any profits - though their users might. And if they can't be bothered to prosecute their users when they do, it is not our problem.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Here is some background of Lik Sang. It is a small shop that sell console games and accessories sited inside Golden center in Hong Kong. (In case you don't know, Golden center is a very very very popular computer/games/console/software center for HK ppl and tourist) The shop is no bigger than 200 square feet. There are like a dozen more of those small shops in the Golden center that sell similar stuff. And you know what? Every single shop there sell mod-chips and pre-modded console. Hong Kong ppl already used to buy/play private games, since the era of Nitendo.
The reason why M$ only go after LikSang is that they are high profile. They sell mod-chips online. There are in fact hundreds of those shop out there in HK sell mod-chip/pre-modded console, they just don't do it online. M$ might be able to stop LikSang sell the chips online, but they can't do shit other than that.
I am not saying buying/play private games are right, but HK ppl are so used to it that it becomes the norm. One thing is interesting I would like to share with you guys. The way they sell private console games in HK is kind of funny. Console games usually don't sell in Golden center, since this is such a popular tourist spot. Ppl sell consoles games usually in some shop next to Golden center. When you walk in to those shops, you see private games on racks. However, you see no sales or shopkeeper. There is a paper basket next to the door with money and changes inside. All you need to do is to pick your game and put money into the paper baskets before you leave the shop. Usually, "shop keeper" either pretend to be a shopper or watching outside of the shop. Just make sure you did put money into that basket or someone will beat the crap out of you if you don't. So, if police or whoever come, they can't do anything since they can't find the shop keeper.
Private console CD games are usually around $3 US dollars each and around $8 US dollars for DvD games.
then why have most of the PS2 mod chip sites not been shut down?
Perhaps some have been and I've not heard of it, but the last I checked it was pretty easy to get a PS2 modchip.
Just because they design the system to be difficult for pirates doesn't mean the company will do anything much beyond that.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Nearly every product on this planet comes with a Terms of Use agreement.
This specifically states what you can and cannot do with the product. While it may sound like a total invasion of privacy or restriction on freedom, it is something that is required for the better of all of us. For example, the first thing that pops into my head is the Terms of Use statements on pool chemicals. They tell me that I cannot use the product in conflict with its label. Good idea! They are just protecting their buns the best they can.
One of the chemicals I use in my pool in Chi Town is called "Ultra Shock".
Hmm... sounds like something you could conceivably convince someone was a drug that randomly sends eletrical impulses to neurons on the brain and causes you to spasm uncontrollably. While you might love this idea, its not practical and definitely not safe and legal. hehe
So... given that you know products have terms agreements, what makes Xbox any different? I would defend Sony or any other company with the same vigor with which I defend Microsoft. Their product is not to be illegally modified. These mod chips void people's warranties as well as totally fuck with the system. They break more systems than they add capabilities to by far. You should see the soldering diagram that is required on some of these motherfuckers, I have trouble understanding them and I'm an electronics expert!
They break tons of boxes, cause Microsoft havoc in support, cost the consumer money, cost Microsoft game sales, and overall are a detriment to the industry. It does nobody any good to have these things out there. Even though Microsoft has tons of money, they have a right to make money on their product damnit! Why doesn't anyone seem to understand that? Where the fuck does this attitude come from that just because a company happens to be fiscally healthy it should stop running a for-profit business. Sorry people... you don't just go pro-bono when you feel you've made enough.
Morons who don't understand business, simple as that.
People should NOT be allowed to market modifications like this. Microsoft per the terms of use agreement must approve the add-ons that are made for the system. This is a fucking good idea! Its one of the things that Microsoft gets that the Linux morons don't seem to. Standardize and centralize you fuckin' idiots!!! What??? Microsoft actually ***know*** whats going on with their game console??? Imagine that, they can actually determine if someone is about to sell a total piece of shit for the system or not. Good marketing, good low level management.
Anyway, I could go on forever... you get the point. The course of action they are taking is legal and not only are the mod chips illegal and should be removed from the market, they also totally suck. Read the tech specs on them, seems like a dipshit from high school came up with the ideas for the 'added bugs'. I mean... features.
The coolest voice ever.
I think this is as much a YRO story as a Microsoft one. This ends up applying the Microsoft philosophy in hardware, which I find disturbing -- The idea that they control things you physically own, after you've bought them, paid for them, and brought them home, rings of corporate facism to me.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I think I like the idea of corporate facism to be even less appealing than traditional facism. At least there, you can overthrow the government!
It's been a long time.
it's a damn blue shame that m$ shut lik sang. they did have lots of terrific stuff. even if lik sang is in the right legally (and ianal and intellectual property-rah-rah-rah etc) when someone moves in to sue or shut you down with a pack of ravenous lawyers, if you don't have the cash to fight back you lose, period. before all the latent pre-law experts jump up about it just think; you have to have time, the money and the energy to follow the filings, the changes in date and venue, the run-you-ragged stuff that heavy caliber legal counsels (like m$'s) are experts at using. some tiny-arsed video game company in a communist held country doesn't stand a ghost against the most powerful software company in the world
the entire "you-don't-have-a-right-to-modify-anything-you-wan t-why-where-does-it-end?" argument is way stale. comparing someone modding a toy like the xbox to someone modding a gun or weapon as an example of the "danger" involved in letting some mook make a copy of halo is ridiculous. make the xbox tap dance and shoot sparks, immerse it in water or let it play anything and everything for all i care. you bought it, you can do what you please with it. period. full stop. a videogame never killed anyone.
xbox piracy might be a serious problem (for a monopolist worth multiple billions, somehow) but it pales to real issues; lousy schools for our kids, medical costs spiralling ever higher, secret government detentions, our ira's draining away because accountants can't seem to tell the truth, a war looming in a global hotspot, and our unwillingness to stand up to idiots who think that freedom and liberty mean nothing more than the freedom to shop and the liberty to choose between two coffee drinks. at the same damn shop.
bah, i'm moving to a cave. teledisc still going up? er... damn
Mod chips are, protests to the contrary, legal. The only ground MS might have to contest them on would be through the DMCA, as a chip could be used to run a pirated copy of a game. However, the DMCA also makes allowances for circumvention with "significant non-infringing uses", which a mod chip certainly has (seeing as how many people here want to run Linux on it). Of course, the law only supports consumers as far as they're willing to pay their lawyers.
Remember DeCCS? That utility that would crack DVDs. Remember how 2600 lost a case because they posted it on their site?
Well, there was a very legitimate use of DeCSS. That was to play DVD's under Linux. This really should have been allowed under the DMCA but the courts have basically decided that that clause about "significant noninfringing uses" doesn't really mean very much.
A precedent has been set, so don't be surprised that just like the DeCCS case, mod-chips or even mod-chip instructions are found to be illegal because of the DMCA. And microsoft has the money and lawyers to make this happen.
Okay, a shameless plug. But one piece of MS sponsored technology - the Dreamcast - has already been "opened" and cannot be shut again.
They were stringing you a bad line here.
;-)
Is it within the line-in Phono specs?
If so, it's fine.
Putting 15 Ohm loads @ 2.2V P-P, not fine.
"Casette" is a label, not a specification/requirement.
Either that or you're a troll...
Cheers!
No pirated code is distributed with the latest XBox chips, as they are typically shipped with NO bios on them. It has been true in the past that some chips did contain copyrighted code and Lik Sang sold them. This is probably why they were able to shut them down. Other ModChip distributors who ship bios replacement chips, without any code on them, haven't broken any law that I'm aware of.
The console market is running on an outdated buisiness model. I propose that console makers should sell their consoles at a profit. Consumers will obviously choose the best console system blindly and at a price of $450+ dollars.
Sony and Nintendo are selling their consoles at a profit.
IIRC, only Nintendo started at a slight loss, quickly going back to profit.
So now who has the "outdated buisness model"?
All right if I read one more EULA joke/complaint post I'm going to explode. There is no EULA on a piece of hardware because you don't license it!! What do you think the L stands for in EULA? Also one more point everyone seems to ignore. Lik sang wasn't just selling them, they were actually manufacturing them. That is a little bit different you know!
All right if I read one more EULA joke/complaint post I'm going to explode. There is no EULA on a piece of hardware because you don't license it!! What do you think the L stands for in EULA? Also one more point everyone seems to ignore. Lik sang wasn't just selling them, they were actually manufacturing them. That is a little bit different you know! I hate trolls
Remember,democracy never lasts long.It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. John Adams (1814)
It is more like saying.
"What if i sold you a mod chip for your car that gave your free gas from any gas station using stolen credit card numbers."
The mod chip for the xbox isn't specifically for running Linux. If it was, what a novel idea that would be. The mod chip is sold as a way to run pirated games, dvd's and whatnot.
That is all the mod chip does. It doesn't modify your xbox to go faster, perform better or provide an alernative/replacement cpu/bios. It changes the xbox to run illegal software.
Microsoft isn't after the linux hackers.. no where did they mention anything about linux.
If you have a little patience you can modify your SNES to be regionfree and 50/60hz-switchable with cheap electronic parts. Better file a lawsuit against Radio Shack and all other vendors of electrical appliances.
Paranoia is a beautiful thing...
"If you go to the next town, going across a desert is a shorter way." - Pu-Li-Ru-La (Taito)
Come on! What's off-topic? If you don't like someone challenging the sacred shibboleths of Slashdot, respond to it. Don't try to censor it.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
All that's left of the packard bell 486 that I originally bought with windows 3.11 is the floppy. It now runs SuSe 8. and has been rebuilt numerous times. I sure hope that packard bell doesn't sue me for modifying it.
The current business models for all consoles sold these days is to develop a product which, at the technology available at launch time, will likely sell at a loss, but through cost reductions made possible by advancing technology, will end up being sold at a profit.
Console makers _must_ push the technology as far as possible when designing a new console, because by the time it is released, it is nearly obsolete (in a sense). But using the latest technology costs a lot of money. Yet as time goes by, that same technology can be cost reduced a lot (thanks to Moore's "Law").
People often seem to forget the important role of advancing technology when talking about "consoles sold at a loss".
Nintendo is only different in that Sony and Microsoft have been much more daring than Nintendo in terms of how much initial loss they will bear on the consoles before profitibility comes about.
Guess nobody is questioning this is just a rumor.
Many things to be questioned:
1. Hongkong's Custom won't give a damn to Microsoft, unless there's solid evidence they are selling copyright infringed products. If you have taken a look at the product Lik Sang has offered, most of the product could be obtained from other sources, which MS did not shut them down. The only problematic product is the OpenXbox's PC-BioXX.
2. From cache of Google, Lik Sang's PC-BioXX did not offer a copy of BIOS included. Thus I would say the Lik Sang won't be that stupid to give MS an excuse.
3. HK is a small place. If Lik Sang is shut down because of that, the news would be on HK's newsgroups very soon, sooner than what you would hear from source outside. There's nothing like that yet.
4. And how come it is "A representative in Microsoft's Australian subsidiary confirmed that the company has taken legal action against Hong Kong-based Lik Sang."??? Microsoft has operations in Hong Kong. It is extremely stupid to get Australian subsidiary to work a HK problem, when they have all the people they needed in HK.
5. HK Custom has tradition to announce any raid on companies selling pirated software. Didn't see that in news from HK though.
It seems to me that some competitors of Lik Sang are spreading rumor during the down time of Lik Sang's server.
A sig is redundant.
Remember, most car manufacturers would probably give cars away for free if they could have total, iron-fisted control of the sale of replacement parts.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
You know and I know that all Lik Sang did was change the name of the company. I'm sure there will be another company very soon selling "OpenX86BoxBios" which is exactly the same thing.
Ha ha, Microsoft. Even the horse you rode in on is smarter.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
You mean "there is no spoon."
Thanks.
Okay, I stand corrected.
You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.
I didn't say they supported it, I said they didn't bother shutting down Lik-Sang. They did the math, and it wasn't rational to expend an iota of effort to shut them down. I don't know the exact sizes of the companies involved here (I suspect Sony is way larger than you think...) but for Sony or Nintendo crushing Lik-Sang would be absolutely nothing (just as it was to Microsoft).
Wait, are you now saying companies are idiotic for not extending warranty coverage to modded hardware?
Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.
What, are you a NeoGeo fan, or something? Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not a big playstation fan, but what the fuck does the quality of the console have to do with the impact of modchipping? They sold the most units, they had the most games and the only way modchipping would hurt is if developers refused to write software--instead developer support for sony systems was and is incredible.
It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING.
You offered no reason why it has nothing to do with Linux, and I offered a whole lot why it has nothing to do with stealing games (how many consumers do you think go at their hardware with a soldering iron?) I'm not saying Linux on xbox would REALLY hurt Microsoft, but just listen to Ballmer--those guys REALLY HATE LINUX. I mean, think--we Slashdot people get all upset about it when most of us are browsing here with Explorer. Imagine how much more pissed you'd be if it was your JOB. Imagine if some long-haired hippies called you a thief as they tried to limit your ability to put food on your families table (from their perspective). They can't stand having the enemy's flag on their flagship, ever.
Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can?
Obviously, intellectual property and firearms are special cases--there are special LAWS (chosen by the GOVERNMENT, not the manufactuer) restricting my usage of those things.
Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? Hardware, like a video game console, like a dvd player, is MINE. Only the government restricts my use of it. I apologize for calling you an idiot when I screwed up so badly regarding the Dreamcast, but lets just say greater thought would have saved you from a few mistakes you've posted today.
Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?
Holy disingenuous, Batman! Yeah, THAT's why they shutdown Lik-Sang, to prevent electrocutions they would in no way every be held responsible for. Better make all electrical tools illegal for non-engineers!
I also just happened to purchase Ikaruga for my Dreamcast. These are all shooters - and there is no language barrier for pure twitch action like that.
Totally off-topic, but how do you like Ikaruga? I never got around to modding my Dreamcast, but I might do it just for this game. Is it worth it?
Th real reason Lik-Sang was shut down, was not necessarily the selling of the modchips themselves. They were also selling Xbox silvers, copied games. http://www.planetgamecube.com/news.cfm?action=item &id=3508
The difference between Nintendo and Sony on one hand and Microsoft on the other is that Microsoft is willing to take a sizable loss on the cost of goods sold. Nintendo and Sony take only a nominal loss on production costs (assuming each unit manufactured is sold). It is debatable how much (if any) Sony lost per unit on the PS2 if one does not include R&D.
The odd thing is, I think it is the new Matrix chip they are really worried about, and all the places that I know that are selling it, are selling it without any bios. Any idiot can install it since it is no there is no soldering required. Even the installation manual and video shows off how easy it is to install by showing a woman install it.
It just came out, and so far a place called Easy Buy has been the exclusive seller for it. Despite this, you know Lik-Sang would eventually be selling tons of them at their premium prices. They could do this because of their popularity and good reliability they were known for. Aside from this recent bust, and a little bit of trouble from customs in the past, they were a very respected site amongst console hobbyists.
I don't think it's a coincidence that as soon as this miracle mod comes out, they shutdown the #1 place to get mod-chips online. They may be using the chips that come with an illegal bios as an excuse, but I think this chip is the reason they chose to act now.
I know MS is lame, but this is just ridiculous. I am not a pirate. I ordered a few import games from Lik-Sang for the Gamecube the day before the shutdown. Thanks to MS, I still don't have them. I had to find another site and wait even longer... and the whole reason I'm importing the games is so I can play them before they come out in the states. That small extra time frame I decided to invest in, is now 3 weeks less in total.
Why the fuck do they have to force the site to shut down, and screw over all the customers who are doing legitimate business with them, buying things other than Xbox mod-chips. I remember when Ebay and Yahoo auctions had to stop selling PSX mod-chips, they didn't shut down all of Ebay and Yahoo.
I do have an Xbox because it is a fun thing to hack. I was willing to put aside MS's lameness and consider buying games in the future like Doom 3 and certain Sega titles. Now I will definitely not be buying them. Maybe if it had some better games available, a decent controller, and wasn't so lame in general, hardcore gamers would actually be interested in it. The reason so many Xbox owners are using it for everything else but playing legit Xbox games, is because that is all that it is good for.
Of five Xbox games I've brought home from Blockbuster (they gave me a 30-day rental cuopon when I bought my Xbox from them, I'll NOT pay the Empire for their "software" {no, I _don't_ steal it either, I use Linux and I bought the Xbox for that purpose}), three of them have refused to work. They had barely visible, really minor scratching.
If the things are so dammed delicate, you _bet_ I'll expect to make backups (assuming I _ever_ buy any). They all co$t $50, and I somehow doubt that they come with a media replacement guarantee! A modchip is required to run these backups. Of course a modchip is also required to run Linux. Fortunately I anticipated that the Empire would fight these tooth and nail, and I bought five China-enigmah chips from Lik-Sang. They made me a deal. I know, I'll be looking around for older Xboxen soon, but these _will_ get onto the used game console market. I've already sold one modcchip to a friend.
I really like the idea of using backup CDs in the car, though.
1. I live in Phoenix. Accidentally leaving things in the car during the day exposes them to about 140 F. This is death to VHS & cassette tapes and CDs too, as well as a LOT of other things. Leaving a copy of a CD in the car ruins a 30-cent CD-R, which I won't bother to cry about. I'm pretty sure that falls within the boundries of "fair use".
2. My ex's kid had his car broken into twice, both times losing hundreds of dollars in CDs and fancy audio gear. I would prefer to supply such _thieves_ with backup CDs. If _I_ make a copy of a CD that I've legitimately _paid_for_ (nevermind that I probably bought it off eBay for a third to half its retail price), lock the original in the gunsafe, and risk baking the copy in my car, that's fair use. If some scumbag (I think we can all agree here that those who break into people's cars and relieve them of their stereo gear are scumbags) breaks into my car and steals that CD, it becomes an illegitimate copy in his possession, and he can't take it to the secondhand record store and sell it. I think that's quite fair.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
I only hope now apple joins the console market so there is some open standards supporting competition.
If we had a standard linux platform, development for that platform would be a lot easier as we wouldn't have to support a variety of hardware.
I cant say much about HK laws and about Lik Sang. I dont know if it's illegal or not for them to operate like that but my knowledge is about affiliate marketing and what can I say is that Lik Sang's affiliate program at commission junction is deactivated as of 10/3/02.
I was wondering what was the problem is and now I learned why it's gone off. So as they are deactivated I may comment that it could be more serios than just a "site problem"..but than again you cant know what are merchants up to..all that disgusting stuff about morpheus and kazaa etc..
No, don't mod your Dreamcast. However, DO buy Ikaruga, right now. It kicks ass, even if it is so ridiculously hard you will tear your hair out in the frustration of attempting to even come close to mastering it. My performance at this game is pathetic!
The reason not to mod your DC is that there is a freely available boot disc which will allow you to play Ikaruga and other imports with one swap. It's called the Utopia disk. If you can't find one, I'm sure I can set you up; just follow the link to my site and send me an e-mail.
You can also buy a product called the Gameshark CD-X or something like that, but it's something like $50; a little spendy I'm thinking...
I'm sorry, but fuck Michrosoft's whiny bitch ass with a big rubber mickey mouse dick. This is just out of line.
If you read my past comments you'll see I don't usually flame, but this is ridiculous.
Mod me up, scotty.
I mean, Jesus...
Oh, wait. We're already doing that.
I got my dreamcast long before the "Boot Disk" came out, and to play jap games i needed a region selectable mod chip.
You do this, and then you have the audacity to complain that you couldn't read the Japanese games? What were you expecting, a babel fish with the box?!
I think other posters covered your other points far better than I could, so I'll leave it at that.
It's on the outside of the shipping box:
IANAL, so that really tells me very little. I imagine that the interpretation of it is pretty much up to the Empire's legal staff, seeing as how they more or less have their way with the DoJ anymore.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
That's as much crap as I'll take from Microsoft. Since mod-chips were ruled legal by an Australian court, I'm going to start an online distributor of mod-chips and accessories, making sure not to use any mod-chips containing copyrighted code. And if Microsoft wants me shut down, they can go to hell. I'm not doing anything illegal, after all. Anyone with me :P ?
jasp
The owners of Portablemonopoly.NET must be very happy since Lik-Sang was the only company online selling the Afterburner GBA for less than they were.
"The game is afoot"
Yep, there's something going on. Might not be just MS too...
MS puts out a new revision (potentially unmoddable) of Xbox, making all previous modchips invalid.
But lik-sang buys the open-xbox and puts out the Matrix chip, which has a question mark over whether works with new revisions (not sure if many people have seen the new revisions or the new matrix chip).
lik-sang's "servers go down" a few weeks ago (track it with deja, we have mid september questions on the fact)
lan-kwei's web page suddenly removes their mod chips from sale.
But on a separate note, the gameboy advance flasher manufacturer www.visoly.com drops off the net. With the front page saying one thing:
"In god we trust, united we stand!"
Might be nintendo in there too...
Rumours abound about new Xbox games checking for mods and crashing if found, as well as Xbox live alledgely checking for mods and refusing to work otherwise...
However, the future of modding the Xbox at the moment? Get your first revision Xbox, and mod if with a switchable mod, such as the Xecuter. Then see what we got in 6 months time...
But a few companies are flexing their muscles at the moment...
You did see this part, didn't you: "Seen from Microsoft's viewpoint (with which I am not concurring)...
I neither defended nor agreed with MS. I simply presented one possible explanation of their behavior. Although, perhaps, stating something in clear, direct lanaguage, prefaced by an explicit disclaimer, is a literary construction beyond your range.
Sure, you own your little box. If you want to build a chip and stick it in there, I doubt MS will come after you. After all, they went after a company, not individual owners.
Next time, try r-e-a-d-i-n-g a post before you jump to the wrong conclusion.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I think you are using a warped version of a George Carlin bit: "Fuck Mickey Mouse. Fuck him with a big rubber dick!"
Anti-microsoft sentiments you may find on this board aside, this is exactly the sort of behavior we have seen from the company in the past and exactly the sort of behavior we shouldn't encourage.
... what is the word?... Ah yes, monopolize the market. Competition between companies have spawned Sonic the Hedgehog, Tekken, Unreal, and a host of others. The only other monopoly platform in history has been the Game Boy, and we saw how long THAT stagnated until development was spurred on by... competition (WonderSwan and NeoGeoPocket).
Lik Sang didn't just sell mod chips. You can get those at modchips.com Lik Sang is the only place you can go to find all sorts of mods and tools for your systems. For example, their GBA section contained the Afterburner internal lighting kit, a kit to splice the display to a television, re-writable roms to run homebrew games, and a host of other attachments / gizmos. Lik Sang was an irreplacable tool for the hardcore gamer who loves hardware, or the home coder trying to break into the business. Lik Sang will be sorely missed. And now Lik Sang is gone.
I had this discussion with a co-worker earlier in the week. He argued that a system should be evaluated on its merits. This is very true, and the XBox is a very powerful system with some fun games. However, one cannot discount the actions of any item's parent company when making a purchasing decision, but especially if said parent company has been bad for the ecology of the business fields it enters. This "crackdown" is a huge one for the hardcore gamer, even if it may seem like nothing to those who buy their supplies at Wallmart.
Microsoft's business plan so far has been
1. Buy up big name developers at an unheard of pace (Bungee, Oddworld, Rare...)
2. Buy exclusives from companies that can't be outright bought (The Matrix...)
3. Try to shut down anyone doing anything we don't approve of (Chippers, XLinux...)
All of the above make it clear that Microsoft is trying to limit competition as much as possible, in order to
Microsoft enters a new market, spreds it's tendrils killing off all of the diversity, and remains nasty and impossible to get rid of. That's not prejudice, that's history. Please remind your friends and associates that it remains a bad personal and business decision to give money to Microsoft, the RIAA, the MPAA, Scientologists, or any other group trying to limit choice or freedoms.
-C
This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future.
Oh yeah... I think we have to shut Microsoft down too... After all they provide us with software (=Windows) that can be used to hack servers and other computers. I'm sorry microsoft I think we have to shut you down...
Actually, I think you've got a really good idea there.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see that happening in a few years.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
keep digging, microsoft, keep digging.
customer alienation: 78% and rising.
I'm no lawyer. But it seems that a modchip that allowed you to boot linux, but that didn't break the security on games would still be good even under the DMCA. The purpose does matter to some degree with the DMCA-- I don't believe it applies at all until you start giving yourself access to copyrighted works you're not supposed to.
Tax Deductable.
I think it cost the 'US' that much to develop the X-Box
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
THE LESSER-KNOWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES #10: SIMPLE
SIMPLE is an acronym for Sheer Idiot's Monopurpose Programming Language
Environment. This language, developed at the Hanover College for
Technological Misfits, was designed to make it impossible to write code
with errors in it. The statements are, therefore, confined to BEGIN,
END and STOP. No matter how you arrange the statements, you can't make
a syntax error. Programs written in SIMPLE do nothing useful. Thus
they achieve the results of programs written in other languages without
the tedious, frustrating process of testing and debugging.
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