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Japanese Train Sets A Speed Record Of 581 kph

Azuma writes "Last night, on December 2, a high-speed Japanese train set a new record of 581 kph, breaking its own previous record. The new Maglev high speed had real passengers on board this time. They proved that the distance between Osaka and Tokyo can be covered in one hour's time. However, we wouldn't see real trains for a while now since the cost is prohibitively expensive at this time. However, they expect that the cost would come down over the next 20 years. This seems to be the future of transportation, at least in Japan. Here is a detailed article from The Japan Times."

764 comments

  1. Ouch... by i_am_syco · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Bet those passengers were scared out of their pants. With it flying that fast, I'd be...if the thing derailed, you'd be really screwed.

    1. Re:Ouch... by Maestro4k · · Score: 2, Insightful
      • Bet those passengers were scared out of their pants. With it flying that fast, I'd be...if the thing derailed, you'd be really screwed.
      I've ridden some of the current shinkasens, and you really don't notice. It's a very smooth ride, and you feel very safe. The best I can compare it to is flying on an airplane, only quieter and smoother.
    2. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's hard(er) for a mag-lev train to derail sincehte 'wheels' wrap around the track. For it to derail it would have to rip the track apart. Not saying it's not possible but it's less likely to happen than on conventional trains.

    3. Re:Ouch... by charlieafrid · · Score: 1

      Its a mee toooo thing but to tell you the truth, the most famous Japanese astronaut was also onboard with lots of kids...it was a nice view

    4. Re:Ouch... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If a conventional train derails at 60mph you're screwed. What's your point, caller?

    5. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually MagLev trains are pretty safe. There are no rails to derail from a the train wraps around then track. One of the complexities is the difficulty in changing tracks as the whole track needs to be moved.

    6. Re:Ouch... by quigonn · · Score: 1

      At 60 mph you still have a good chance to survive. Not so with 250 kph (search for "Eschede" and "ICE" on Google) or over 500 kph.

      --
      A monkey is doing the real work for me.
    7. Re:Ouch... by shione · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He was trying to make the point that at higher speeds the train would be more likely to derail. but he's wrong anyway as the bottom of the train wraps around the track. In order to derail the mag-lev train would have to rip the track apart. Additionally, since the train is wrapped around the track and doesnt just sit on it like conventional trains do, its possible to superelevate the track (track rises on one side as it turns). Superelevation is used to counteract the centrifugal forces as a vehicles makes a tight turn at fast speeds.

    8. Re:Ouch... by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And much less hassle as well.

      Train:
      • Arrive 5 minutes before departure.
      • Get on.
      • Travel, with passport check on the way.
      • Get off.
      Airplane:
      • Arrive 3 hours before departure.
      • Check in.
      • Passport check.
      • Security screening.
      • Departure lounge.
      • Flight delayed.
      • Get on.
      • Travel.
      • Get off.
      • Baggage.

      I, for one, welcome our new super-fast trains. I've used the 300kph trains (TGV,Eurostar,etc) and they are a really nice way to get around. For travelling within continents, these will a far better alternative than flying.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    9. Re:Ouch... by shione · · Score: 1

      me again.

      if they don't superelevate they could use hydraulic jacks to tilt the train to one side as it turns, but that technology isnt just restricted to mag-lev trains.

    10. Re:Ouch... by Walterk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please take a look at a Maglev. Notice how it wraps around the track? It is extremely unlikely for one of these suckers to derail, and physically impossible for these things to crash into each other.

      I for one welcome our Maglev overlords. At 581kph it should limit my 43 minute train time to school to roughly 8 minutes. Cross country? At most 30.

    11. Re:Ouch... by iamthemoog · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Last night, on December 2..."

      Presumably they did the test at night so the passengers wouldn't be able to see anything and get scared... (apart from the 2001 Space Odyssey style mind-bending light show)

      --
      No Norm, those are your safety glasses; I'll wear my own thanks...
    12. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      In France , the TGV derailed at least two times in 20 years. Each times at more than 250Km/h (150mph) No injuries, No deaths.

      Because the train is linked upon boggies.

    13. Re:Ouch... by JollyFinn · · Score: 1

      >> If a conventional train derails at 60mph you're screwed. Uhh, I didn't know women where attracted to train accidents...

      --
      Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
    14. Re:Ouch... by WindBourne · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Arrive 5 minutes before departure.
      Get on.
      You can bet that this will change with these trains. The costs are high enough that it becomes a target so Security will be done.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    15. Re:Ouch... by boer · · Score: 1

      But this is only until the first terrorist attack against railroad infrastructure. After that, I can see traveling with such high end trains being as much hassle than with airplanes today.

      --
      (This sig intentionally left blank)
    16. Re:Ouch... by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're forgetting that you can even take a comfortable night train and sleep while you travel. I do this with my family when we need to cover a "one night's distance". We loose less "wake time" and we arrive in a better shape.

      --

      I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
    17. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually thats the german transrapid. The japanese version is different. There the track wraps arround the train. Pic

    18. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much less hassle? I ride the shinkansen between Tokyo and Nagano almost daily, and I certainly don't consider it hassle-free.

      The so-called non-smoking cars usually smell like a whorehouse, because they are butt-up against the smoking cars, and the smoke wafts in. Not to mention the selfish cocksucking smoking motherfuckers who smoke on deck, and stand too close to the auto doors as well, causing them to open and close every 5 seconds, bringing MORE disgusting smoke into the non-smoking cars.

      Their is never enough "jiyuu seki" seats, so I have to pay for a fucking shiteiseki. But guess what, lately they have been CONVENIENTLY running out of those too, so I have to ante up the extra money for a Green Car seat.

      Fuck the shinkansen. I'm much happier on my airline commutes between Haneda and Ishigaki, where I'm building a summer home.

    19. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, just wait until the first Billy the Kid makes a train robbery, then we will have just as much security hassles as with airplanes.

    20. Re:Ouch... by penguin7of9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think so. There have been terrorist attacks on trains (e.g., Carlos the Jackal's bombing in 1983). They just haven't been very successful and haven't led to cumbersome security measures.

      From a terrorist point of view, I suspect that a building is a better target than a train: easier to get to, easier to get away from, and more likely to kill lots of people.

      In fact, even when it comes to airline security, Americans seem to be going from one extreme to another without ever getting it right: prior to 9/11, airlines just didn't want to inconvenience passengers even though even simple measures could have prevented 9/11. Post 9/11, US airlines seem to be working hard to make their passengers' lives as miserable as possible (without necessarily improving security much).

    21. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8789 1& cid=7616981

    22. Re:Ouch... by JamMule · · Score: 1
      Additionally, since the train is wrapped around the track and doesnt just sit on it like conventional trains do, its possible to superelevate the track (track rises on one side as it turns).

      This is done with regular rails too. At least here in Finland. The rails are not tilted much, but so much as to be visible with naked eye.

    23. Re:Ouch... by rpjs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Eurostar has airline style security because the Channel Tunnel is deemed to be a potential target. You can't just turn up and go, but the check-in closes only 30 minutes ahead of departure, so it's still faster than at an airport, and unlike Heathrow, Orly etc, the stations are right in the hearts of the cities they serve.

    24. Re:Ouch... by hoytt · · Score: 1

      The Eschede accident was on a regular piece of track which was upgraded to 200 km/h. The train left the 280 km/h track south of Hannover. Between Hannover and Hamburg there's no 280 km/h track.

    25. Re:Ouch... by AlecC · · Score: 1

      True in England, too. If your train has to travel slowly (because, for example, of the large number of repairs in progress) it can be quite uncomfortable going round a bend cambered for higher speeds. Obviously, the camber cannot be enough to endanger a train crawling round, whereas a maglev train could optimise its camber.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    26. Re:Ouch... by TamMan2000 · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting that you can even take a comfortable night train and sleep while you travel

      I am guessing you are short...

      I am only 6'1" and I was miserable on the night trains I took when I did the europe thing a few years ago. The beds had walls on both ends, so I couldn't let my feet hang off, and they were so narrow that laying on my side and pulling up my legs left my knees interfering with the railing, and my ass on the wall...

      --
      "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
    27. Re:Ouch... by Kristoph · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Eurostar already has some luggage and personal screening (x-ray) but that only takes a few minutes. I normally leave my house 20 minutes before the train pulls out and it takes 10 minutes for me to reach the train station.

      A train will always be more convenient than an airplane because it departs and arrives into the middle of the city and does not require complex check in or bagage handling as you carry your own bags onto the train.

      Moreover, I cannot imagine anyone trying to attack a train as no doubt the subway would be much easier and would have a much bigger impact. The disruption to a city (like NY or London) if people felt the subway was unsafe makes the impact of any sort of attack on a train pale into insignificance.

      ]{

    28. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The disruption to a city (like NY or London) if people felt the subway was unsafe makes the impact of any sort of attack on a train pale into insignificance.

      Well, there already have been terrorist attacks in French subway

    29. Re:Ouch... by Yazheirx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      even simple measures could have prevented 9/11

      You mean like the passengers beating the crap out of some dorks with box cutters, rather than sitting like the trained sheep the left has been attempting to turn them into?

      --
      More of my thoughts
    30. Re:Ouch... by greentree · · Score: 1

      > It's a very smooth ride, and you feel very safe.

      you're absolutely correct. i rode the Ave in spain from madrid to seville. completely silent. not a single bump. my only objection is the almost complete lack of non-smoking sections. it's absolutely disgusting inside with regard to air quality.

    31. Re:Ouch... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1, Insightful
      You mean like the passengers beating the crap out of some dorks with box cutters, rather than sitting like the trained sheep the left has been attempting to turn them into?

      It's not the left that's been trying to do that... More like the right -- specifically "the establishment". I don't know how many times, I've seen news reports where the police have thanked some random 'citizen' for arresting some violent creep then followed up by saying that these things sre best left to police.

      Even right-wing militia types seem well trained to follow orders.

      Left wing types, on the other hand, are much more likely to chafe under orders, start mouthing off the attackers and lead a 'popular revolt' against them.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    32. Re:Ouch... by dunstan · · Score: 2, Funny

      The most anoying one is going into Watford Junction from Euston. Most of the trains stop there, yet the track has been cambered for high speed for the odd train which doesn't stop. Result: everything sliding off the table.

      Dunstan

      --
      The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
    33. Re:Ouch... by Golias · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Eurostar has airline style security

      On every inch of the track?

      Airlines have tight security just at the airports because it's hard to take down a plane in flight from the ground. A train rail, on the other hand, is right there at (or near) ground level. Some jackass could damage the line at just the worst moment and cause a disaster.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    34. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, considering that the maglev actually encloses the track a derailment is harder than for an ordinary train...

    35. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the record, in my experience, when you do leave "beating the crap out of some violent criminal" up to the police, the police is usually totally useless, at least in NYC.

    36. Re:Ouch... by Yazheirx · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      But if I beat the crap out of an Arab, with a box cutter on a plane, the left would label me a racist.

      They would have wanted me to ask him about why he felt that he had to hijack a plane. They would want me to sing a folk song to change his heart. Most of the right, that does not live in DC, would say beat the $#it out of him and let some Dr. ask him those questions when you are safe on the ground.

      --
      More of my thoughts
    37. Re:Ouch... by harks · · Score: 1

      For the flights I've been on in the last year, I have shown up about one hour early and never had a problem. They were domestic flights, I realize that international flights take more. Even traveling over Thanksgiving, I was never in a line with more than one person ahead of me. Quite pleasant.

    38. Re:Ouch... by harks · · Score: 1

      Before 9/11, most hijackings were for different reasons (not suicidal). The best policy for them was to get the plane to land as soon as possible with as little commotion as possible. The passengers did not know that the plane was going to be run into a building, and if it had been for a bunch of guys trying to get a free ride to Cuba or get their brother out of jail, it might have been safer to let professionals handle it.

    39. Re:Ouch... by Coryoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also worth noting that the Shinkansen lines in Japan have never had _any_ passenger deaths. The odd inattentive railway worker, or suicide jumping on the tracks, but _no_ train accidents.

      They've been running since 1964. I would say almost 40 years of constant use with no accidents is a pretty damn fine record. JR are very good at safety.

      Jedidiah

    40. Re:Ouch... by Fear+the+Clam · · Score: 1

      ObGeek: My dad flew on the concorde early in its first years of operation. Among the stuff he brought back (an impressive menu, a plastic folder with all sorts of cool FAQs and pictures, and a special Concorde luggage tag) there was a decal proclaiming "Concorde: Arrive in better shape."

    41. Re:Ouch... by Ntense007 · · Score: 1

      America is too damn dependent on cars to get around....we'll never see that here.

      I wish everyday I could use trains to get to work and school...but I have to drive 80 miles a day to do that....that is truly ass.

    42. Re:Ouch... by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Superelevation is common with all rail systems worldwide. Maglev trains would most likely have much higher superelevation than is currently used, however. Amtrak's Acela trains have a car tilting system which effectively increases the superelevation of the passenger cars, allowing higher speeds. The track which the Acela runs on currently cannot be upgraded, for practical reasons.

      Also, if you build stations on superelevated curves (sometimes necessary), you will change the distance between the train and (high-level) platform. This could require the use of bridge plates.

    43. Re:Ouch... by rpjs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Er no, I meant at the terminals - X-Ray machines for scanning baggage basically (IIRC all baggage on the E* is carry-on but it's been a while since I've been on it).

      You make a good point though. The first section of the high-speed (186mph) line from the tunnel to London recently opened and we've already had an attempt by the local low-lifes to push a car onto the track... Don't think it was terrorism though, just Kent.

    44. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      prior to 9/11, airlines just didn't want to inconvenience passengers even though even simple measures could have prevented 9/11.

      The measures required to prevent 9/11 were in place 30 minutes after the second plane hit. The airlines didn't need to change a thing. All it took was cell phones, and the passengers on the third plane knew not to let the hijackers get their way. Problem solved.

      What simple measures were you thinking of?

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    45. Re:Ouch... by kjs3 · · Score: 1

      There has been a high-profile terrorist attack against the U.S. rail infrastructure. http://www.emergency.com/azdrail.htm

    46. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      Left wing types, on the other hand, are much more likely to chafe under orders, start mouthing off the attackers and lead a 'popular revolt' against them.

      Looking at the historical evidence, you're incorrect. The right tends to take things too far and inconvenience everyone in the process. The left tends to leave things alone and hope it all goes away on its own. When it comes to terrorism, you can't just hope it goes away on its own. In this case, I'd rather be inconvenienced than dead.

      However, I don't think the "right-wing militia types" have quite the right idea either. The fact is that ANYTHING is a weapon. Right now, we're concentrating all our energy on finding the WEAPONS in airports, and not the people that use them. A gun is never going to kill someone if someone doesn't pull the trigger. On the other hand, if someone wants to kill someone, they don't need a gun (or knife, or box-cutter, or bomb, etc.). You can kill someone with your bare hands... so are we going to search people for large hands?

      The solution is so amazingly simple it's almost laughable. Don't look for the weapons (aside from the most obvious ones, like bombs and guns), look for TERRORISTS. I mean no offense to anyone by saying this, but the fact is that all of the terrorists on 9/11 were, in fact, arab muslims. If you put 2 and 2 together, keep an eye on any arab muslims getting on an airplane, especially if they're shifty-like. I'd say the same thing about whites, blacks, asians, or purple spacemen.

      Here's an analogy for you, before you label me a "flamebait" or "troll". Imagine that there's been a 300lbs asian male running around with a pistol shooting people. Are you going to search every single person for a pistol, or are you going to look out for a 300lbs asian male?

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    47. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      The measures required to prevent 9/11 were in place 30 minutes after the second plane hit. The airlines didn't need to change a thing. All it took was cell phones, and the passengers on the third plane knew not to let the hijackers get their way. Problem solved.

      Tell that to the people on the third plane. Oh wait... they're all dead. They wouldn't be if the terrorists never would have gotten on those planes.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    48. Re:Ouch... by xjerky · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I hope I'm not proven wrong here, but I don't think a Sept.11-type attack is going to ever be possible again. The next time some Arabs try to threaten passengers with boxcutters and take over the plane, either 1) the passengers will more quickly revolt and beat the shit out of their attackers (see Richard Reid) or 2) The pilot will just run the plane into the ground early, figuring they are dead anyway.

      --
      A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
    49. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      And since the terrorists know what will happen if they try to hijack planes in a similar fashion, they have much less reason to try.

      We've taken away most of the effectiveness of that particular method. This may be sufficient to discourage hijackers in the future. It took 30 minutes.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    50. Re:Ouch... by tiger99 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Remember the monorail crash in Germany a few years ago. That also wrapped around its track. http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/features/schwebeba hnungluck/home.html That happened at a very much lower speed. It is impossible to physically construct a train which will remain attached to the track in a high speed derailment. Even if something did not break, the resulting huge deceleration would kill the passemgers anyway.

      Safety is only obtained by rigorous track maintenance and inspection. In Japan they have the earthquake hazard, nothing they can do about that. If the track buckles, at that sort of speed, disaster is inevitable.

      One good thing is that this particularly fine piece of engineering is not maintained by either Balfour-Beatty or Jarvis, who between them are responsible for quite a few disasters and near-disasters in the UK. Basic things like not putting a piece of track back, and not telling the signaller it was not there (Twice!)

      The Japanese are more meticulous than most when it comes to carrying out regular inspections, even so this is fairly risky.

    51. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Unless of course the criminal isn't very violent, and is already locked up. Then they'll happily ram a broomstick handle up his ass.

    52. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That depends whether you're in America or not. If you're not, you look for 300 lbs Asian males. But if you're in the USA, you search every single person because only singling out the 300 lb people and the Asian people would get you in trouble for being prejudiced against Asians and against fat people.

    53. Re:Ouch... by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes...easier to get into and away from and for killing lots of people.

      Terrorists are often jumping into trains, and forcing the drivers to drive to other places at gunpoint in order to blow them up. This also makes escape easier, because, rather than having to meet armed guards at the places that the trains are going to end up, they have their friends waiting to help them.

      OH WAIT! THAT ONLY APPLIES TO PLANES! Trains travel on tracks, and they don't leave the tracks. The best you can do is derail the train and kill the people on board. You can't do anything nearly as fantastic as blow up the world trade center, and you can't really hope much for an easy escape because the trains are going to go where they're going to go (I guess you could jump off, but...then you wouldn't have control of the train anymore, and it wouldn't derail. You can't jump off WHILE it's derailing. That would be as fantastically suicidal as staying on board.). Also, telecommunication is much easier in a train, which means that if it were hijacked, someone would probably find out very quickly.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    54. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      on the other hand, one must consider that in case of hijacking all you have to do is shut down power to the track.

    55. Re:Ouch... by Bombcar · · Score: 1

      It is pretty hard to run an Amtrak into a skyscraper. The best you can do is run it into the station.

      And that won't even work very well for straight through stations.

      The best a terrorist can do is get a freight train loaded with "bad" chemicals and derail it in the middle of New York or some such.

    56. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      indeed. however, racial profiling is not necessarily enough... there have been reorts of even white americans becoming terrorist-simpathetic. To be honest the problem stems from the horrible conditions in the countries that these terrorists spring from. the only REAL way to fix this is tto alleviate the pressure at the bottom.

    57. Re:Ouch... by uradu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > than sitting like the trained sheep the left
      > has been attempting to turn them into

      The left what? The left hand? The left foot? Oh, you mean the Left! It seems your grasp of history is as tenuous as that of spelling, otherwise you'd know that a lot more social change has taken place because of public disobedience by what you call "the Left" than by (presumably) your own camp. Attributing conformism to the hippies of the 60s, or the civil rights marchers of the 50s, or even what you would probably consider the quintessential Lefties--the Bolsheviks of the Russian Revolution--smacks of ignorance and self delusion.

      In fact, in recent history conformism is a trait much more frequently found amongst conservatives, or the Right. Who introduced the doctrine of "if you're not with us you're against us"? Or forwarded the notion that opposing the war in Iraq is paramount to being anti-American? Don't get distracted into addessing those particular issues, focus on the fact that they exemplify conformist thinking--behaving the way your leaders want you to as a matter of policy.

    58. Re:Ouch... by demonbug · · Score: 2, Informative
      He was trying to make the point that at higher speeds the train would be more likely to derail. but he's wrong anyway as the bottom of the train wraps around the track. In order to derail the mag-lev train would have to rip the track apart. Additionally, since the train is wrapped around the track and doesnt just sit on it like conventional trains do, its possible to superelevate the track (track rises on one side as it turns). Superelevation is used to counteract the centrifugal forces as a vehicles makes a tight turn at fast speeds.


      Couple of things wrong with this...

      For starters, unlike the German Transrapid, the Japanese maglev design consists of a roughly u-shaped track which the train sits inside of. Basically, very difficult for the train to derail, but in this case it is the track that wraps around the train (at least this is how they were doing it five years ago, I suppose the Japanese might have changed their design since then).

      As for superelevation, it is not a characteristic unique to maglev designs. Ordinary steel rail, even in the backwards US, is usually superelevated in the turns. The trouble is that with the relatively narrow track gauge, and with the relatively tall rail cars that need to be stable even when the train is standing still on the corner for whatever reason, the amount of superelevation they can use is limited. Just like highways - they could superelevate onramps and turns much more than they do, and make it more comfortable to travel at high speeds, but it is extremely uncomfortable (and unstable for large trucks) if for some reason (traffic, accident, stall, whatever) you need to stop on the turn. Maglev doesn't really have this problem, as the train is wrapped around the track (or vice versa), so a little more superelevation could be used.

      On a side note, a year or two ago I heard about a group (I don't remember if it was the Germans, Japanese, or someone else) taking people up in passenger jets and doing some various g-rate (different amounts of banking, etc.) turns to see what the limits of passenger comfort were. They were trying to figure out how tight they could make turns on a maglev track before people found it too uncomfortable to use (the purpose was to see if it would be reasonable to lay elevated maglev track along existing highway right of ways in cities, using extreme superelevation to allow the trains to maintain high speed without reducing passenger comfort).

    59. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Isn't that like saying that in the case of hijacking all you have to do is land the plane? Either way, you are under a threat of force to continue to the hijacker's destination.

      If a hijacker says "take this train to cuba" (to borrow an old Monty Python joke) and you power down the track, they will just start killing hostages until you power it up again.

    60. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Superelevation is used to counteract the centrifugal forces as a vehicles makes a tight turn at fast speeds.

      Or, for pedants, to provide the required centripetal force, as the centrifugal force isn't a real force.

    61. Re:Ouch... by rabidcow · · Score: 2, Funny

      Arrive 5 minutes before departure.

      Wow, that must be a really fast train!

    62. Re:Ouch... by jjhlk · · Score: 1

      From a terrorist point of view, I suspect that a building is a better target than a train: easier to get to, easier to get away from, and more likely to kill lots of people.

      But what makes the train a good target is that it seems like such a poor target, when compared to buildings. This is terrorism, afterall.

    63. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      if you're in the USA, you search every single person because only singling out the 300 lb people and the Asian people would get you in trouble for being prejudiced against Asians and against fat people.

      My point exactly. The "politically correct" crowd that bitches when you try to search the most obvious people are going to get more people killed... but at least they won't offend anyone in the process, right?

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    64. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The measures required to prevent 9/11 were in place 30 minutes after the second plane hit. The airlines didn't need to change a thing. All it took was cell phones, and the passengers on the third plane knew not to let the hijackers get their way. Problem solved.

      How do you know it was the passengers who really crashed the plane? Hint: on 9/11 or 9/12, I distinctly read the following news message: "fighter jet was a few minutes away from the second plane". Given that the third plane crash was more than one hour later, and that it's alleged target was the White House, make the math: if the passengers didn't crash the plane, would it have been shot down? Now if the plane had been shot down, what would the governement say?

    65. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      And since the terrorists know what will happen if they try to hijack planes in a similar fashion, they have much less reason to try.

      Maybe you don't understand that The Terrorists Won. They caused that plane to fly into the ground and killed over 100 people on board. It took 2 or 3 terrorists to kill over 100 innocent civilians. They don't care if they missed the 500 they were probably aiming for because they still averaged about 50 each. For all the talk about Columbine, those 2 kids only killed 10 or so, and you're suggesting that the terrorists somehow lost when they killed 100?

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    66. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      huh?

      the trainwreck a few years back in germany was with the ICE. that's a cheaper and older construction very similar to the TGV, i.e. a normal (very fast) train on a track arrangement.

      the worst part of the crash was that the different cars folded onto each other and into a bridge. the TGV supposedly has a more ridgid construction and should be, in similar circumstances, safer.
      but still, ICE is pretty much a normal train.

    67. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Whether or not the passengers did crash the plane, they could have. Dudes with boxcutters aren't knocking down anymore big buildings, and it's not because of airport security or fighter jets.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    68. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Of course! It's better to avoid offending some Arabs, even if it means thousands must die in a terrorist attack. That's the American Way (tm).

      On a side note, what is with the anti-Arab profiling? When in the history of aviation has anyone from any other region of the world hijacked a plane? How often does anyone else do terrorist acts on an international scale, especially which involves suicide? Sure, there's the IRA in Northern Ireland, and the LTTE in Sri Lanka, but they don't come to the US and hijack planes; their beef is with those in power over them where they live, and that's where they conduct their acts. Only Arabs have a ridiculous religious motivation for killing people in a different country who have little to nothing to do with their problems. So what's wrong with singling them out on US planes?

    69. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      First of all, the people in that plane only learned about the other hijackings after the terrorists had control of the plane. If five guys started cutting up flight attendants on an airplane today, they'd be beaten to death in minutes. They'd never see the inside of the cockpit.

      And still. The terrorists were attempting to fly the plane into the whitehouse. I'd say that the result they got was much much less effective as a method of inducing terror.

      Sure, they killed a lot of us, but if they only succeeded at knocking down four planes in a single day, they would have inspired a much much smaller amount of terror. They wouldn't have done nearly as well at aligning the non-Islamic nations against the Islamic nations. They'd be much much further from the world war they seek.

      9/11 can't happen again. And it didn't take airport security to make the change. All it took was cellphones.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    70. Re:Ouch... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      Here's an analogy for you, before you label me a "flamebait" or "troll". Imagine that there's been a 300lbs asian male running around with a pistol shooting people. Are you going to search every single person for a pistol, or are you going to look out for a 300lbs asian male?

      Hatred, terrorism and extremism knows no racial, national or religious bounds. Pretending otherwise is both stupid and dangerous.

      If the 300lb gun-wielding idiot is known to be in jail or dead (e.g. blew his own head off), I'd be inclined to stop looking for him, and just go back to looking for idiots with guns.

      If you use the existence of the first idiot to 'prove' that only 300lb asians are homicidal maniacs, then you're setting yourself up to get 'capped by a 110lb redhead with a smoldering hatred for trolls -- or just ripped apart by the next sumo wrestler you try to strip-search.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    71. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      When in the history of aviation has anyone from any other region of the world hijacked a plane?

      You moron. Tons of other ethnic and non-ethnic groups have hijacked planes. Cubans were getting famous for it in the 1970s. All kinds of non-racially-oriented nationalists have hijacked planes.

      Ugh. Posting with no karma bonus because I don't want intelligent people to have to read this thread.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    72. Re:Ouch... by ZerroDefex · · Score: 1

      That's because we don't want to rely on someone else to take us somewhere and especially when the trains often do not go were we want to go.

    73. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best you can do is derail the train and kill the people on board.

      And even that is pretty hard. You probably can't make a train derail with anything you carry into the passenger compartments (well, short of a portable nuclear device, I suppose). And the tracks are constantly being checked and under surveillance. And even when trains derail, many people usually survive.

    74. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You fuckhead. When? Was it a US plane? Provide some examples, or shut the fuck up.

    75. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Hehe. Googling for cuba hijack yielded this buried CNN article about Cubans hijacking planes.

      The listed cases are all of Cuban flights being hijacked to the US, but I take their word for the opposite occurence. If you don't want to, do your own research. It's not like what I'm saying is hotly contested.

      If you don't think my examples are particularly relevant to 9/11, I don't care. I'm just pointing out that your comment ("When in the history of aviation has anyone from any other region of the world hijacked a plane?") is idiotic on the face of it.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    76. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Still, the fact remains that no one was slaughtering Americans in suicide bombings before the Arabs got onto their current kick. These Cubans just wanted to escape their country, and the Americans were just fugitives who wanted to escape prison in the US; neither wanted to kill themselves because of some religious BS.

      I guess my real point is not that no one else has ever hijacked a plane (since obviously they have), but that no one else has done international terrorism for irrational religious reasons.

    77. Re:Ouch... by wan23 · · Score: 1

      If you put 2 and 2 together, keep an eye on any arab muslims getting on an airplane, especially if they're shifty-like. I'd say the same thing about whites, blacks, asians, or purple spacemen.

      So let me get this straight... if a white guy commited a terrorist attack... say, like blowing up a federal building, you would say "from now on we need to keep an eye on any white people near federal buildings". Right?

    78. Re:Ouch... by wan23 · · Score: 1

      And still. The terrorists were attempting to fly the plane into the whitehouse. I'd say that the result they got was much much less effective as a method of inducing terror.

      I don't know... I remember thinking "What the? The Pentagon? Shouldn't we have some kind of giant laser or something to protect that?" I mean, if they had hit the White House it wouldn't have been such a big deal... the President wasn't even there at the time.

    79. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      ...no one else has done international terrorism for irrational religious reasons.

      Even if that were true (It's not. The IRA leaps to mind.) that still wouldn't boil down to "We should give brown people a particularly hard time getting on airplanes."

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    80. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Right, but half of the US population probably doesn't even know what the pentagon is now, let alone before 9/11. The whitehouse is sacred to all those folks that started wearing flag-motif clothing after nationalism was cool again. The pentagon might have more real importance, but knocking over the whitehouse might have mobilized us for a larger war (which was the ultimate goal of the terrorists).

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    81. Re:Ouch... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Again, I don't recall the IRA ever targetting American planes or Americans. They've always kept their activities confined to the UK, since that's who they're so mad at.

      Also, I don't recall the IRA being completely motivated by stupid religious ideas; I think at least part of their problem was they wanted local rule rather than UK rule. The Islamic Arabs have no such reasons; their reasons are entirely religious, with no basis in rationality whatsoever.

    82. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can it derail as it has no rails?

    83. Re:Ouch... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "I don't think so. There have been terrorist attacks on trains (e.g., Carlos the Jackal's bombing in 1983). They just haven't been very successful and haven't led to cumbersome security measures."

      On the other hand, it's quite easy for non-passengers to get access to a train. Just slap a brick of C-4 onto a car as it passes by a certain railroad crossing.

      "I suspect that a building is a better target than a train: easier to get to,"

      Barely. See railroad crossing comment above.

      "easier to get away from,"

      Again, with the railroad crossing bit, the train gets away from you (in Soviet Russia!)

      "and more likely to kill lots of people."

      Depends on what the train is carrying. If it's a passenger train, then you'll probably kill no more than the passengers. But a train laden with liquified natural gas, liquified propane or dusty coal has the blast potential of a small nuclear weapon. Such a train could easily wipe a small town off the map.

    84. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Again, I don't recall the IRA ever targetting American planes or Americans.

      Whatever. That's not what you said. You said "no one else has done international terrorism for irrational religious reasons," which is again obviously untrue. Yes, there are other groups that have committed international terrorism due to irrational religious reasons. No, I'm not going to go look up a name and an event for you. It's obvious.

      You were trying to artificially constrain your subject until only arabs would be a part of the problem, and you failed. Why are you attempting to limit the discussion to religious groups? I thought we were talking about terrorists.

      If you want to search people getting on a plane, search everyone. As I said: Even if that were true (It's not. The IRA leaps to mind.) that still wouldn't boil down to "We should give brown people a particularly hard time getting on airplanes."

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    85. Re:Ouch... by Eiki · · Score: 1

      True enough, I guess.... But I'd be much more inclined to credit the "anti-authoritarianism" of the Left if a Democrat was in office. Defining your politics as the opposite of everything that Bush believes sounds more like an act of whining brats than of defiant revolutionaries. Or were YOU marching against Clinton when he bombed a Sudanese aspirin factory at an extremely convenient (for his political career) time?
      As for "if you're not with us you're against us", I've never heard an actual member of the Right issue such a challenge - it seems to be more of a convenient stick for the Left to wield.
      Now if you're REALLY ready to be an anti-conformist, anti-authoritarian, maybe you should think about:
      1) Supporting gun freedom
      2) Working to end the toxic idea that only the official law enforcement is capable of protecting us.
      3) Encouraging self-reliance (as opposed to state hand-holding) among the people, in the areas of finance and health care, among others.
      4) Letting the people keep more of their money, and assuming, for once, that the people are virtually all decent, and won't spend it on cigarettes and porn while their children go shoeless.
      5) Think about NOT just giving that criminal "what he wants". Think about giving him what he NEEDS - like a good whuppin'.
      6) Stop focusing on the argument that bringing the war to the middle east "will just make them mad" - I, for one, wouldn't expect someone capable of saying THAT to get out of his seat and wrestle a razor-wielding terrorist to the ground.
      Now THESE are the really revolutionary ideas - the ideas of the American Revolution, which has seen much greater success and longevity than any number of Leftist ones. These ideas are what you should consider if you want to see a badass population ready to storm the cockpits. But if you were to adopt this thinking ... you'd be more of a Libertarian than a Leftist, wouldn't you?

    86. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cant see how you think maglev is any safer. You now have to worry about power failures while your traveling at a high rate of speed.

    87. Re:Ouch... by ElderKorean · · Score: 1

      You could sleep on the floor. More comfy (and cleaner) than some train beds anyway.

      Even in the sitter cars. I've slept on the floor. Never had a single person tread on me yet.

      Though I can sleep anywhere, and usually just sleep in the sitter.

    88. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      On a side note, what is with the anti-Arab profiling? When in the history of aviation has anyone from any other region of the world hijacked a plane?

      You must be joking? In the 1970s, a plane was hijacked about every week. The French have created a special intervention unit just for that case.

      How often does anyone else do terrorist acts on an international scale, especially which involves suicide?

      WHAT???? Look up "terrorism" and "Algeria" on google, you'll find out that 9/11 was nothing in comparison of what happened there (and still continues). And this isn't the only place. Apparently, terrorism is world priority only once Americans are hit ; according to Americans.

      Only Arabs have a ridiculous religious motivation for killing people in a different country who have little to nothing to do with their problems.

      Timothy McVeigh was not an arab, nor the sniper. And probably neither is the anthrax sender. The sect Aum wasn't either. Mostly nuts and brainwashed people would kill themselves, and there are some of them about everywhere. If I were you, I wouldn't bet there isn't a apocaliptic sect in US, ready to commit terrorists acts right now.

      Also since Americans have the highest crime rate of Western world, they are very dangerous, by your logic, Americans should be singled out of planes as well as "Arabs" and Irishs. After all, Americans criminals kill more people in a year than terrorists ever did.

    89. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Whether or not the passengers did crash the plane, they could have. Dudes with boxcutters aren't knocking down anymore big buildings, and it's not because of airport security or fighter jets

      Fighter jets alone would do the job. After all, US security demanded that one could stop quickly a supersonic Russian plane (possibly holding an atomic bomb), they can stop a civil plane easily.

    90. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Just slap a brick of C-4 onto a car as it passes by a certain railroad crossing.

      It could be more spectacular to use the C-4 elsewhere, like on a bridge.

      But a train laden with liquified natural gas, liquified propane or dusty coal has the blast potential of a small nuclear weapon

      You don't need a train for that. And no, it's far lower than a small nuclear weapon, it would be a big blast destroying a few buildings.

    91. Re:Ouch... by uradu · · Score: 1

      > Defining your politics as the opposite of everything
      > that Bush believes sounds more like an act of whining

      I defined my politics long before I even heard of W. I'm curious what HE is defining his in terms of, because he seems to be waffling regarding whom he is pandering to lately.

      > As for "if you're not with us you're against us", I've never
      > heard an actual member of the Right issue such a challenge

      Dude, you've just lost all credibility! How about some public records?

      [snip mostly knee-jerk cries for anarchy]

      > Now THESE are the really revolutionary ideas - the ideas of the American Revolution

      That's funny that you should mention the American Revolution. If you examined the founding principles more carefully you'd notice that their spirit is much more in line with what you consider the Left than the Right. Ideas such as equal rights and the protection of personal dignity and human worth, rather than dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself anarchy. If you compare these ideas to the standards of their day you'll find that the founding fathers were practically bleeding-heart socialists of the era.

    92. Re:Ouch... by Demolition · · Score: 2, Informative

      I cant see how you think maglev is any safer. You now have to worry about power failures while your traveling at a high rate of speed.

      Japanese maglevs have rubber-shod wheels that the trains sit on when they're not levitating. If a train loses power, then it will settle onto the wheels and then be stopped mechanically (i.e. with friction brakes) by the conductor or by remote control.

      By the way, most maglevs have emergency power supplies that are designed to maintain levitation and electrodynamic braking capability in the event of power failure.

      Those are just two safety measures among many that are built-in to this type of system. It's naive to assume that the designers of these trains haven't thought about the types of things that could conceivably go wrong with them.

      D.

    93. Re:Ouch... by ces · · Score: 1

      But this is only until the first terrorist attack against railroad infrastructure. After that, I can see traveling with such high end trains being as much hassle than with airplanes today.

      If I want to attack a high-speed train it makes much more sense to damage the tracks or place a bomb alongside. If I am a terrorist it makes very little sense for me to actually get on the train with a weapon.

      Even if someone does attack a train for the most part the only people who's lives are at risk are the people on the train. It's not like you can slam a train into a random office building or government installation.

      To be fair right after 9/11 there were proposals floating about to require airport like screening in the US for Amtrak, ferries, intercity buses, and cruise ships. As far as I know only cuise ships ended up getting much in the way of increased screening.

      --
      Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
    94. Re:Ouch... by ces · · Score: 1

      When in the history of aviation has anyone from any other region of the world hijacked a plane?

      DB Cooper anyone? He was white and from the US.

      It was only after Cooper and some copycats that we got security screening in airports at all.

      --
      Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
    95. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      The pentagon might have more real importance, but knocking over the whitehouse might have mobilized us for a larger war (which was the ultimate goal of the terrorists).

      I strongly disagree. Their stated goal was to kill as many Americans as possible. Listen to any tape from Osama Bin Laden, and you'll hear him say it over and over again. In fact, I'm willing to bet they did NOT want a war. They, just like every other country on the planet right now, know that a direct war with the US would result in the other side losing. Like it or not, the US is the only superpower in the world... and the US is also the single largest economy in the world, with the third-largest amount of land in the world. No single attack could wipe us out, even if they hit the best possible place. The terrorists, I'll concede, are spread all over the world... but they're not as well organized as our military. For proof, add up all the US soldiers killed in Iraq (even when the terrorists know where we are), then add up all the terrorists killed in Iraq. Just this past week 50+ terrorists were killed...

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    96. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      It occurs to me that you're ignoring the facts, or distorting the facts until you're left assuming you're correct.

      His argument is, and always was, that no religious-based group has ever attempted to kill Americans using airplanes in any way. You keep bringing up the IRA, but the IRA has NEVER attacked the United States using airplanes. Therefore, why would we search Irish people at the airports, since they've never posed a threat? You refuse to accept the religiously-based beliefs, and logically, motives of the hijackers on 9/11, therefore, you cannot create an effective defense on an attack you do not understand.

      As for the IRA, they attack England... but even they have enough morals (generally) not to attack innocent civilians. I don't live in either Ireland or England, but my understanding is that they limit most of their activities to military targets.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    97. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      If you use the existence of the first idiot to 'prove' that only 300lb asians are homicidal maniacs, then you're setting yourself up to get 'capped by a 110lb redhead with a smoldering hatred for trolls -- or just ripped apart by the next sumo wrestler you try to strip-search.

      You are correct, to a degree. If only 1 300lb asian man was guilty, I would agree whole-heartedly. However, I can name 18 (soon to be 20, counting the DC snipers) arab men that have given their lives in an attempt to destroy the US in the past 3 years.

      Would you use the same argument if a gang of hundreds of 300lb asian men wanted to kill you, your friends, your family, and anyone else of your nationality? Or would you just assume that since you may have killed one or two that the threat is over?

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    98. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight... if a white guy commited a terrorist attack... say, like blowing up a federal building, you would say "from now on we need to keep an eye on any white people near federal buildings". Right?

      No, I'm saying that if 15-20 white men blew up federal buildings we should start keeping an eye on any white men near federal buildings. Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me 15-20 times, I must be a fuckin idiot.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    99. Re:Ouch... by irokie · · Score: 1

      dude, don't start unless you got all the details. the IRA's actions aren't so much religious as political. they take issue with the fact that britain own slightly more than one sixth of ireland...

      and the IRA have a political body that does negotiation for them. they've been on a ceasefire for the last ages. the IRA can be reasoned with. religious zealots can't. that's why we call them zealots.

      not that i'm calling these people zealots...

      --
      and if you see me strut, remind me of what left this outlaw torn...
    100. Re:Ouch... by Abreu · · Score: 1

      What about the vast majority of Arabs who are true muslims, and therefore pacifists? Do you condone their rights being squashed just because of their ethnicity and religion more or less match the ones of some terrorists?

      If a few deranged fundamentalists are all that it takes to define a religion, then we can also call for searching and profiling christians just because of a few wackos that claimed themselves to be christian.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    101. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      I know about the fucking IRA ceasefire. All I'm trying to say is that brown people aren't the only ones that might be dangerous to put on an airplane. Whether or not other groups can be reasoned with, some of them may try to kill us on airplanes. (Yeah, I know, not the IRA.) Fair enough?

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    102. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      His argument is, and always was, that no religious-based group has ever attempted to kill Americans using airplanes in any way.

      Maybe. But why is he excluding non-religious terrorists? Religious groups aren't the only people that have attempted to kill Americans using airplanes. So if your goal is to hinder this particular Islamic fundamentalist jihad, searching Islamic fundamentalists would be a great place to start. However, if your goal is to prevent people from killing Americans using airplanes, you might want to search everyone.

      Timothy McVeigh's attack wasn't religious, but there's no reason to believe that his successors will not use an airplane. (Although I guess his particular brand of crazy is probably too busy hating Muslims right now to give a fuck about the excesses of the US federal gov't.)

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    103. Re:Ouch... by irokie · · Score: 1

      dude, i know...

      i agree with you.

      i think all people are stupid and capable of hideous things...
      like calling themselves kEwT_cAnDy_gRrL_79@/dev/rnd.com and stuff...

      --
      and if you see me strut, remind me of what left this outlaw torn...
    104. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      Maybe. But why is he excluding non-religious terrorists? Religious groups aren't the only people that have attempted to kill Americans using airplanes. So if your goal is to hinder this particular Islamic fundamentalist jihad, searching Islamic fundamentalists would be a great place to start. However, if your goal is to prevent people from killing Americans using airplanes, you might want to search everyone.

      Again, I have to point out that the religious groups, particularly muslim extremists, have been particularly persistent and successful in killing Americans. What other groups have been nearly as persistent, or successful?

      Obviously, we're trying to prevent people from killing Americans using airplanes... but given that the most persistent and successful group is muslim extremists, the most obvious option is to search muslim extremists.

      Timothy McVeigh's attack wasn't religious, but there's no reason to believe that his successors will not use an airplane. (Although I guess his particular brand of crazy is probably too busy hating Muslims right now to give a fuck about the excesses of the US federal gov't.)

      Timothy McVeigh was nuts, pure and simple... but I'm greatly offended that you might be comparing me to him. I don't hate muslims any more than I hate whites, blacks, jews, christians, buddhists, hinduists, or purple spacemen. Each race and religion has its extremist group... some are more active than others. When it comes to terrorist activity, muslim extremists tend to be more active than any other group.

      You are correct in saying that Timothy McVeigh's successors could use an airplane to attack the government. However, again, since he was only 1 person, and he's dead now, maybe we should work on the people that are still alive, and still dedicated to killing as many Americans as possible.

      I don't hate muslims. I hate muslim extremists who want to kill everyone that doesn't agree completely with them. It's same psychology that drove the Crusades. "Do you believe in god?" "No." BANG. "Do you believe in god?" "Yes." "Do you believe in MY god?" "No." BANG.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    105. Re:Ouch... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      (soon to be 20, counting the DC snipers

      As far as I can tell, they were after money. Religion and politics would seem to have nothing to do with their actions. Certainly no more than McVeigh and friends (including those who weren't cought).

      I would, however, note that, after the bombing in Oklahoma, people were chomping at the bit to blame it on Muslims. When it proved to be the work of Christian US Militia members, there was not the kind of witch hunt there was against US muslems subsequent to 9/11.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    106. Re:Ouch... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Obviously, we're trying to prevent people from killing Americans using airplanes... but given that the most persistent and successful group is muslim extremists, the most obvious option is to search muslim extremists.

      On how many separate occasions have Muslim extremists killed Americans by hijacking airplanes? I honestly thought it was just those four planes on 9/11, but I could be wrong. If it was only those 19 guys, I don't see what you mean by persistent. I honestly don't see Muslim extremists to be the only significant threat to American passenger planes.

      Timothy McVeigh was nuts, pure and simple... but I'm greatly offended that you might be comparing me to him.

      I don't mean to do that at all.

      However, again, since he was only 1 person, and he's dead now, maybe we should work on the people that are still alive, and still dedicated to killing as many Americans as possible.

      You think that Timothy McVeigh was the only person that held his belief structure (and to such a degree)?

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    107. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      I would, however, note that, after the bombing in Oklahoma, people were chomping at the bit to blame it on Muslims. When it proved to be the work of Christian US Militia members, there was not the kind of witch hunt there was against US muslems subsequent to 9/11.

      You really don't understand that the Oklahoma City bombing was done ONCE by ONE MAN, do you?

      You also really don't understand that it took 18 or 19 hijackers, all muslim, to carry out the four (4) attacks on September 11, do you?

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    108. Re:Ouch... by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      On how many separate occasions have Muslim extremists killed Americans by hijacking airplanes? I honestly thought it was just those four planes on 9/11, but I could be wrong. If it was only those 19 guys, I don't see what you mean by persistent. I honestly don't see Muslim extremists to be the only significant threat to American passenger planes.

      When I say persistent, I don't mean persistent in using airplanes... I mean persistent in the number of attacks on the US. They attacked the very same building back in 1993. I'm not going to list all the attacks by Muslims in the past decade, but there are FAR more than by Timothy McVeigh, or anyone that shares his beliefs.

      You think that Timothy McVeigh was the only person that held his belief structure (and to such a degree)?

      He's the only one that's blown up a building, that I know of.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    109. Re:Ouch... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      You really don't understand that the Oklahoma City bombing was done ONCE by ONE MAN, do you?

      Wrong: Two people have been convicted of direct involvement. Others may have also been involved, but the FBI, et.al. seemed quite happy to let that trail go cold (much less the kind of witch hunt among right-wing militias that there is today against the Muslim community) You also really don't understand that it took 18 or 19 hijackers, all muslim, to carry out the four (4) attacks on September 11, do you?

      I'm guessing that there are a lot more Muslims in the US than there are members of right wing militas. Joining a Militia is much more a matter of choice than being Muslim. Much like Christianity, the Muslim community runs the gamut from ultra-pacifist to radical Yahoo.

      Given the choice of having a rip-roaring socio-political argument with a random Muslim or a militia member, I'd feel much safer arguing with a Muslim. Even getting into the 90th percentile of radicality within the Muslim community, the most that they're going to threaten me with is ending up in hell after I die..
      Actually, I did have an argument like that with a Muslim... He refused to give me a copy of the Quran to read (so I could argue with him more knowledgably) because he figured that, even after reading it, I was unlikely to convert... Apparently, if I die ignorant of the Quran, I still have a decent shot at (a lesser) heaven, but if I refuse to convert after having access to 'the word', then I'd be doomed to hell -- and he liked me too much to risk that.

      Walking away from a similar kind of argument with McVeigh's "associates", I'd be listening for the sound of a cocking gun. Some of them would probably be happy to shoot just me for being 'too uppity a colored'.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    110. Re:Ouch... by Eiki · · Score: 1
      "I'm curious what HE is defining his in terms of, because he seems to be waffling regarding whom he is pandering to lately."

      What exactly do you mean by this?

      "Dude, you've just lost all credibility! How about some public records?"

      That statement was issued as a diplomatic posture to browbeat recalcitrant nations - something I for one have no problem with (and there are few indeed among heads of state that haven't said something similar). But in your original post, you were clearly talking about something different: some kind of censorship or quashing of domestic dissent, which hasn't happened at all as you describe it.

      "the founding fathers were practically bleeding-heart socialists of the era."

      Absurd. Your greatest error is that you believe in a dichotomy between "equal rights and personal dignity" on one hand, and "dog-eat-dog anarchy" (presumably what you call capitalism) on the other. This is a result of the wrong-headed belief that personal dignity, etc, is possible without the protection of property rights and economic freedom. The founders of America could not have been more different from what you imagine. Here are just a few quotes, out of many delicious possibilities:

      "A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and all that is necessary to close the circle of our felicities." -- Thomas Jefferson

      Doesn't leave much room for modern-day socialist welfare institutions, does it? Try this one:

      "It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth part." -- Benjamin Franklin

      Ha! A 10% tax burden practically consitutes a libertarian paradise these days! Or:

      "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which grant[s] a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -- James Madison

      Does that sound like the thinking of a "bleeding-heart"?

      I would at least respect, a little bit, a Left that recognized the fact that their philosophy is completely opposed to that of Jefferson, Franklin, et al., and argued against the American tradition from a honest platform. I would think you wrong, but at least I wouldn't think that you were hiding anything. But such lame misreading of documents and willful ignorance of history as claiming that the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect gun rights simply won't do if I am to take your side seriously.

    111. Re:Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Remember the monorail crash in Germany a few years ago. That also wrapped around its track.

      No, it does not - it is a one side open hanging configuration, more or less like an aerial railway.
      Common electrodynamic Maglevs do wrap around their
      track with the whole trainbase on both sides. The Transrapid then hovers 15cm above it while the distance to the coils at the bottom of the track is only 1cm at the same time.

  2. Obligatury Simpons quote by rf0 · · Score: 1, Funny

    "There's nearly [a train] that can out run a greased Scotsman"

    Well ok its close

    Rus

    1. Re:Obligatury Simpons quote by torpor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Umm... a greased Scotsman is a train.

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    2. Re:Obligatury Simpons quote by surstrmming · · Score: 1
      Umm... a greased Scotsman is a train.

      My god! I could have sworn it was the nickname of the final production Linux Kernel 2.6.0 release.

    3. Re:Obligatury Simpons quote by lonb · · Score: 1
      Wouldn't the obligatory Simpsons quote be:
      "Mono... d'oh!"
      - Marge vs. the Monorail
      --
      "Ain't I a stinka..." - Bugs
    4. Re:Obligatury Simpons quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its supposed to be "nary"

  3. 361MPH by sakusha · · Score: 5, Funny

    for those of us who don't use that artificial metric crap. I mean, really, if God wanted us to use the Metric system, he would have made the distance between the King's nose and his thumb to be exactly one meter.

    1. Re:361MPH by mattjb0010 · · Score: 5, Funny

      for those of us who don't use that artificial metric crap.

      Have you considered a job working for NASA or the JPL?

    2. Re:361MPH by javiercero · · Score: 4, Funny

      Too bad god made his penis exactly 1 inch long... a lot of repressed feelings and wars due to massive inferiority complexes could have been avoided if God had been more generous with the King!

      But then again, if God did not want us to use the metric system then how come s/he gave us Ten fingers? :) Rather than using the kings shortcommings, other people decided to use"standard" equipment.... unless you are one of them crab people, then you must be restricted to binary counting I guess.....

      Yeah it is late and I have been coding 2 days straight....

    3. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, even the original poster was much too much used to your american/imperial units: we normal (metric) people use km/h, not kph as an abbreviation. Some people cut corners and say kmh but that is of courde WRONG. Even though most people who write roadsigns use kmh.

    4. Re:361MPH by Dopefish_1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      But then again, if God did not want us to use the metric system then how come s/he gave us Ten fingers?

      Well, just to be pedantic, God didn't give us ten fingers. He went for the more practical combination of eight fingers and two thumbs.

      --

      #include <sig.h>
    5. Re:361MPH by pubjames · · Score: 4, Funny

      for those of us who don't use that artificial metric crap.

      Yes, for those of us with twelve fingers, imperial measurements are much more natural.

    6. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, really, if God wanted us to use the Metric system, he would have made the distance between the King's nose and his thumb to be exactly one meter.

      So the distance between the King's nose and his thumb is exactly one yard??

    7. Re:361MPH by TehHustler · · Score: 1

      You'd probably crash your car on the way to work. Fnarr....

      --

      TheHustler
      http://www.elmarko.org/ - Useless bilge
      http://www.asylum-games.co.uk/ - Co-Founder
    8. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      well, if GWB's nose keeps growing, it soon will be.

    9. Re:361MPH by Hieronymus+Howard · · Score: 0

      You have: 581 km per hour
      You want: furlongs per fortnight
      * 970410.85

    10. Re:361MPH by sznupi · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      actually, I consider metric system to be the least artificial of them all - because it was based on simple principles. EVERYBODY on this planet, if they know this very simple principles can reproduce SI units (the simplest example is meter: take the part of meridian between equator and pole and divine it by 10000 - THIS is simple and natural. Using factors that are something like 1,758648 - this is unnatural). And please don't tell me that I'm biased because my country uses SI - for example, even though Fahrenheit scale was invented here, few hundred km from where I live (so I should be proud...), I find it idiotic too - temperature scale based on "normal" body temperature and outside temperature can't be any different than that (what person's temperature? perhaps he had fever? or was he dying and cold? what time of the year was it? what weather was outside?). As you can see, there's no way the original principles of Fahrenheit scale can tell us how this scale looks exactly - so reccurent principles were added later - that's what I call artificial. Celsius scale on the other hand...from the beginning it was "unfreeze water at sea level, boil water, divine by 100 - eventually do that few times, days apart, to minimise factor of pressure changes - you have a scale". Fully reproductable. Oh, and if somebody will publish scientific paper with units different than SI...well, if he wants to be laughed at, why not, go ahead ;P

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    11. Re:361MPH by kinnell · · Score: 1

      The metre scale is just as artificial. It was invented during the reign of Napoleon, and is a subdivision of the distance between the North Pole and Paris. Naughtical miles are slightly better, being equivalent to the distance travelled on the Earths surface equivalent to 1' of latitude/longitude (if I remember correctly), but then the degree/minute measurement is fairly arbitrary.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    12. Re:361MPH by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      I beg your pardon?

      Here in Canada I've seen kph quite a few times, and it most certainly is a correct usage, albeit it is not as common as km/h. I think a lot of car speedometers use kph.

    13. Re:361MPH by rpjs · · Score: 1

      As I recall it, NASA and the JPL do use metric. It was the private-sector contractor that didn't.

    14. Re:361MPH by ifwm · · Score: 1

      I have 12 fingers you insensitive clod!

    15. Re:361MPH by fstanchina · · Score: 1

      It's common in English-speaking countries where you are accustomed to using "mph", but here in Europe it's always "km/h". However, the RPM indicator is usually labeled "rpm", with "turns/min" (appropriately localized, as in "giri/min" in Italy) being quite common, but I've seen the occasional "r * m^-1" which is going to confuse all but the engineers and geeks out there.

    16. Re:361MPH by stefan999 · · Score: 1

      If a company of the "private sector" wants to export their products to other countries they have to deal with the "metric crap".

      Stefan

    17. Re:361MPH by fstanchina · · Score: 1

      the simplest example is meter: take the part of meridian between equator and pole and divine [sic] it by 10000

      I don't know about you, but I find it easier to measure the distance between my nose and my thumb than to take a looong walk from the Equator to the North Pole. Not to mention how many times you'll have to stop along the way and get more clothes.

      (Yes I know someone measured it two thousand years ago with a deep well, a stick and some simple logic)

    18. Re:361MPH by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The degree minute thing probably came from the Sumerians who actually used base 60 for their counting systems. It is postulated that they regularly traded with another race and so came up with a base which could be used equally to translate from their 'old' units and those of their fellow traders.

      Base 60 makes it easy to divide values by common fractions, a half, a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth. Hence 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an degree and 6 x 60 degrees in a circle. The sumerians also gave us positional notation (ie. that the same symbol in different positions in a number means a difference value) which is where our hundreds, tens and units comes from. Some even believe that they invented 0 (in which case it was lost for some thousands of years afterwards) and it's shape comes from drawing () with a stylus in a clay tablet (their write once memory). You can find out more here.

      Totally off topic but never mind.

    19. Re:361MPH by Repugnant_Shit · · Score: 1

      For something so "based on simple principles" you sure do a lot of divining, which requires a lot more faith than the good ol' king's nose method.

    20. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, 10 fingers is a base 11 system, not base 10 (because 0 is usually represented by not raising any fingers, and than you have 10 numbers left, 10 + 1 = 11)

    21. Re:361MPH by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Howewer - it is divining by multiple of 10 = the easiest operation imaginable in decimal system (perhaps apart from multiplication by 0 ;P )

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    22. Re:361MPH by sznupi · · Score: 0

      uops - two mistakes :P First: above should be a response to fstanchina. Second: how on Earth I confused division with divine...something bad is happening with my personal Engrish translator ;>

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    23. Re:361MPH by sznupi · · Score: 0

      hmmm...now I don't know really...was yor post, Repugnant_Shit, a joke, or I've made a mistake in my poor English? I'm confused, somebody please help me :/

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    24. Re:361MPH by DarkSarin · · Score: 1

      mod this one up...wish I'd thought of it..

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    25. Re:361MPH by sakusha · · Score: 1

      No, that's precisely the topic. Systems based on degree/minutes are ideal for people who live on spherical planets, and don't like to use Radians because they can't divide by Pi in their head.
      What really gets me is the mixed systems, like kph. It's still not metric, since time is measured in nonmetric hours. Of course, it could always be worse, with some stupid decimal clock with metric seconds and 100 seconds per minute.

    26. Re:361MPH by 4of12 · · Score: 1

      km/h

      h?

      hour?

      What about seconds?

      I've never understood why the metric transformation didn't go all the way and make units of time measurement denominated in factors of 10.

      Instead, we get all this Terran legacy units of days, weeks, months, years.

      We'll be stuck with hard-to-multiply units of time until a sizable population inhabits other worlds.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    27. Re:361MPH by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      divine = guess

      You, of course, were talking about dividing, and some people thought the mistake was pretty funny, but don't hold it against us - we got your point.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    28. Re:361MPH by CommandNotFound · · Score: 1

      Actually, during the French Revolution they changed the calendar into a metric system. I can't remember the specifics, but I believe it had ten-day weeks with numbered days, no months, and the remaining days in the 365.4 day solar year would be reserved for holidays. It only lasted about 12 years (ironicly non-metric) and they went back to the old calendar. Calendars are very hard to change. Check out the excellent book _The Discoverers_ by Boorstin for more info.

    29. Re:361MPH by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It may be artificial but it just makes a hell of a lot more sense.

      What's simpler? 10 decimeters in a meter? 10 centimeters in a decimeter? Even the prefixes follow a standard pattern...

      Compared to: 12 inches in a foot? 3 feet in a yard? fractions for fine measurements (1/8 inch, 1/16 inch)... ever have to reoganize a ratchet set?

      Or how about: water freezes at 0 and boils at 100? Makes sense to me. Compare to: water freezes at 32 and boils at 212? God awful!

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    30. Re:361MPH by IroNick · · Score: 1

      I can count to 1024 on my fingers and 1048576 if I add the toes! Well not really, I had to use the calc to figure it out...

    31. Re:361MPH by kyrre · · Score: 0, Troll

      In metric water boils at 373 degres kelvin. Celcius is more apropriate for everyday use of course.

    32. Re:361MPH by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      In that case, he would have used the distance between his nose and the end of his penis.

    33. Re:361MPH by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Funny
      Naughtical miles are slightly better,
      They may be, but they always require a good spanking...
    34. Re:361MPH by Golias · · Score: 0, Troll
      What's simpler?

      Both are very simple unless you are a total moron. Is multiplying 3 by 12 too hard for you? If so, you need more help than a strict decimal-based system of weights and measures.

      Or how about: water freezes at 0 and boils at 100?

      Except that it almost never does. How close are you to sea level where you live? What's the atmospheric pressure today?

      Compare to: water freezes at 32 and boils at 212?

      That means F has 181 units from freezing to boiling, while C only has 101. This means metric is less precise, especially for climate temperatures. I can tell when somebody adjusts my house thermostat from 73 F to 72 F, so we are talking about useful degrees. To represent a change of the same ammount in the metric system, I would need to use fractions of degrees.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    35. Re:361MPH by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Both are very simple unless you are a total moron. Is multiplying 3 by 12 too hard for you?

      Both may be simple, but metric is simpler (and therefore less prone to simple mistakes). You also conveniently cut out the part about the fractions, which are definately not beyond my capacity - I use them all the time - like I said, ever have to reorganize a ratchet set? But they ARE definately more of a pain in the ass to work with.

      If you're going to defend a system because it's commonplace and everyone knows how to use it, that's one thing, but I can't see how you can argue that metric doesn't simply make more sense.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    36. Re:361MPH by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      Real men have binary digits. So you can count from 0 to 1023.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    37. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the same "you must be stupid if you can't XXX" card that the one-button-mouse mac zealots bring out in the one button argument.

    38. Re:361MPH by Golias · · Score: 0, Troll
      Well, rachets could have been divided into tenths of inches. "9/16th" is not really part of any standard, other than the fact that American auto manufacturers chose to use such goofy measurments for their nuts and bolts.

      If you're going to defend a system because it's commonplace and everyone knows how to use it, that's one thing, but I can't see how you can argue that metric doesn't simply make more sense.

      It doesn't. It's just as arbitrary, and while the uniform increments of 10s might sometimes make the math a little easier, it doesn't always. Nor does it always make sense to go up an entire factor of 10 for the next unit of measurment. Four quarts to the gallon makes a hell of a lot of sensse, because those are the two units by which people are most likely to buy beverages at the supermarket (orange juice, milk, etc.) "A gallon" is simpler than "four litres."

      Our temperatures are also more useful, at least for weather reports, because it's centered on human comfort levels, not the sea-level boiling and freezing temps of water.

      In F, a weather report of zero degrees means "fucking cold", and 100 means "fucking hot". Anything inside that range means you can probably stand to be outside for a few hours, provided you dress appropriately. In C, zero means "kinda cold, watch out for freezing rain and wear a hat", while 100 would mean "the world is coming to an end. Repent and prepare to meet thy God!"

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    39. Re:361MPH by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      That's why the actual SI unit for speed is meters per second.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    40. Re:361MPH by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Our genetic proclivity for being lazy does not make it the best system of measurement. Nature has shown a distinct lack of interest in nice round numbers. The best reason not to use the metric system is the artificial boundaries our own systems set up. 100 degrees celcius is not the point at which at which every mixed solution (with water) boils, like your spa. It's more around 112. So should the system be adjusted to the boiling point of chlorinated water because that's what a study shows is the most frequent measurement in society? Why not kelvins? A lot of things in human history don't necessarily make sense and we've been doing ok. I'm not arguing the status quo of mixed measurements, but that the world is gonna need a better reason than, it's something YOU would like.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    41. Re:361MPH by pavon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Everyone should have 12 fingers! I mean really base ten is such a pain in the ass. People natually work well with common divisions and multiples of things, like half an hour, 1/3 a cup etc. Look at all the natually developed measuremnent units: 360 degrees, 24 hours / day, 60 minutes per hour, 12 inches per foot. All nicely divisable by all sorts of numbers. But ten is divisible by what, 2 and 5. Like that sucks. Think about how cool it would be if all the common fractions had simple decimal notations as well. In base 12: 1/4 = .3, 1/3 = .4 1/2 = .6 etc. None of this infinite repeating digit crap.

      Oh, and every time you hear about alien sightings they have 6 fingers on each hand. Is it a coincidence that those base-12 civlilizations are advanced enough to cross the galaxy, while we base-10'ers are still groveling in the dirt? I think not!

      Forget metric - it is cumbersome in its ten-ness. And imperial is out of sync with our numbering system. What we need is a base-12 metric system. And it all begins with genetically engineered 12-fingered children! Who's with me?

    42. Re:361MPH by Jeffery+McGrew · · Score: 1

      Actually, to butt in here, the system of base-twelve actually comes in really handy (pardon the pun) within the construction industry. I think it's one of the main reasons that metrics not caught on in America.

      See, with a base twelve system, you have the following divisions available to you instantly: 1/12, 1/6, 1/3, 1/2, 1/4. Note how you get both an easy 1/3 and a easy 1/2-1/4 combo outta there.

      With a base ten system, you only get 1/5, 1/10, and 1/2- with no simple 1/3.

      This is more important than you might figure at first; let's say you've got a wall, and it's 4 units wide, and you want to devide that wall into three equal spaces- if it's 4 feet, that's 48 inches, which devides into 16" per third; but if it's 4 meters, that's 1.3333 meters per division.

      Also, due to the fractional nature of the imperal system, small measurments are easy to figure out. For example, half of 5/8 is also half of 10/16, which comes out to 5/16. Half of 0.625 isn't as simple.

      With more complex problems, the numbers get harder. And seeing that within most construction you're deviding things into 1/2, 1/4, and 1/3rds all the time, you can see why people wouldn't wanna change.

      One of my old bosses, an experanced Architect who only hand-drafted his whole life, could add, subtract, devide, and multiply complex imperical measurements in his head before you could even reach for your calculator, because he had learned the above tricks unitl they were like well-worn grooves in his brain.

      Also, as someone who framed houses to pay for Architecture school, while contractors and carpenders are not dumb, it's not like they are gonna care about base-ten math being more 'efficent' or something, they just want to get the job done, and are going to use the simple way to do that, for they've got bigger fish to fry.

      That's a hard thing to give up!

    43. Re:361MPH by otisg · · Score: 1

      Hm, and I thought kilometers per hour should be written as 'kmh'.... or at least that is what I was tought in my 'metric school'. Did things change in the past 1-2 decades?

      --
      Simpy
    44. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I thought Indians invented the 0

    45. Re:361MPH by Kulaid982 · · Score: 1

      Here in Canada I've seen kph quite a few times, and it most certainly is a correct usage, albeit it is not as common as km/h. I think a lot of car speedometers use kph.

      I have a friend attending college in Toronto who would assert that the "km/h" label is actually an abbreviation for "Kegs of Molson consumed in an Hour" at parties.

      --

      Isn't it interesting how you come to recognize posters based solely on their sigs???
    46. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      let's all go to binary, or base 60!

    47. Re:361MPH by plastik55 · · Score: 1

      You must not have read the parent post, because with ten fingers you can count to 2047.

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    48. Re:361MPH by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 1

      The concept of 0 existed Sumeria but the Babylonians introduced a symbol for zero.

      A lot of the Indian astronomy and number theory was inherited from the Greeks (via Alexander's invasion) which in turn came from the Babylonians. Many of the names are similar between both Greek and Indian mathematics.

      As for where the character 0 meaning zero. This may have come from the Sumerians but others, as you point out, attribute the Indians with this.

    49. Re:361MPH by cellocgw · · Score: 1
      Everyone should have 12 fingers!


      Better that we have 8 fingers and four thumbs; the "extra" thumbs outboard of our pinkies but in an opposing joint mirroring the original thumb. That would be an excellent mechanical design.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    50. Re:361MPH by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yep, it was stupid Lockheed Martin that was assuming the use of Imperial units. NASA was using SI units as would any other sane scientific entity.

    51. Re:361MPH by InOverMyFeet · · Score: 0
      The meter, originally defined as one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to either pole, is now defined as 1,650,763.73 wavelengths of the orange-red light corresponding to a certain transition in as atom of krypton-86. That's pretty "artificial" to me. I've got a lot of measuring devices in my basement (being a D.I.Y weekend warrior) but I don't think I have a way to measure from the equator to a pole.

      IMO, the derivation of the base unit for measurement is not what makes a system good or bad. It's how they are scaled to bigger or smaller units or how they are subdivided.

      As a hands-on, Mechanical Engineer I find that it is convenient to switch back and forth between systems to better understand the problem. Sure, SI units are easy enough to perform calculations with but being raised in the U.S.A. I find that I can relate better when saying something weighs 10 pounds rather than 44.48 Newtons. Other times when I'm caught without a ruler or scale I take a dollar bill or piece of paper and fold it in half a few times....poof....a new system of measurement (Binary even). Arbitrary...yes...but no more than any other system of measurement and it works perfectly for recording/transferring measurements. I can apply them later to whatever system I choose.

      --

      -- Probability does not dismiss possibility --

    52. Re:361MPH by displaced80 · · Score: 1
      Also, due to the fractional nature of the imperal system, small measurments are easy to figure out. For example, half of 5/8 is also half of 10/16, which comes out to 5/16.


      Fractio.... 5 ... slashy thing ...8 ... 10 slash 16? What is this bizarre mumbo-jumbo? ;)

      Half of 0.625
      is 0.3125!

      isn't as simple.

      I beg to differ ;-) ... Anything's easy if you're brought up with it and it becomes second nature. Writing in anything other than the Roman alphabet seems extraordinary to me, but billions of people manage it without so much as a second thought.

      Umm.. So OT, I've forgotten what the T was... :)

      --
      What's the frequency, Kenneth?
    53. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The T stands for "Topic".

    54. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it should be written km/h. It's like the difference between kWh and kW/h. (Hint: mul/div).

    55. Re:361MPH by Greedo · · Score: 1

      Who's with me?

      /me raises his three hands

      --
      Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
    56. Re:361MPH by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Well, we're just going to have to disagree...

      I mean, '"A gallon" is simpler than "four litres."' may be true, but a gallon is also an arbitrary measurement.

      The metric system allows the possibility for avoiding fractions. Now, you can call me an idiot for wanting to avoid fractions, but as someone who does fix his own car, someone who does cook a lot, and all the while using the "old" system, I can tell you it would simply be a lot easier to avoid them at all.

      30 milimeters is a heck of a lot easier than 1 1/4 inches. And it's not just on the ratchet set, rulers and any other way to measure using feet and inches have the same problem.

      To understand the difference, do a recipe that has a lot of small ingredients - like 1/4 tsp salt, and 3/4 tsp cumin... whereas everything in metric is consistent.

      Or how about measuring margins on paper? It may be plain and boring, but it's consistent and easy to pick up and follow... and once you know the prefixes, they apply to both lengths and volumes.

      It's just my opinion - but after learning the metric system, I simply don't understand the resistence to use it.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    57. Re:361MPH by pavon · · Score: 1

      /me raises his three hands

      Sweet, you have it easy. We can just cut off your three pinkies!

    58. Re:361MPH by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Yes, sorry, one ten-milionth (morning here then, didn't wake up properly yet :P)
      But you're not right IMHO about "artificiallnes" of definition of meter , because the first definition IS STILL VALID! - just doesn't have "official" status, is not as accurate (but enough for everyday use - not for scientific and engineering though) and much more easy to use (yes, original definition of meter is very easy to use IMHO - it WAS possible to use it in ancient Greece even - measuring from the equator to a pole is not about direct measurement). The current def was defined because it was considered the easiest to use which have that level of accuracy.
      About rest of your opinions - yes, of course, it's better to use in every day live what's more convenient and to what people are used. In the same way as you prefer to say 10 pounds rather than 44.48 Newtons I'd say 5kg rather than 11,03 pounds...
      Ease of calculations about which you mention is extremely important IMHO - time doesn't get wasted.
      And, like it or not, FULL convertion to SI will happen sooner or later - we need global measurements system (the same as English basically became global language - resulting in millions of people with English skills as weak as mine :P). Actually, SI is one already - only two (yes, TWO) countries are little "resistant" - which doesn't prevent having by every scientific paper or documentation coming from these countries SI units.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    59. Re:361MPH by iamblades · · Score: 1

      There isn't any resistance to using it where is should be used, not in any organized way anyway. Metric is used when really accurate measurements are needed, and when the numbers are really really big, or really really small. For consumer goods, imperial works better because it is less likely to have big numbers or small numbers. Oz. are better than grams, gallons better than liters(althourgh we use liters where they fit), and sometimes inches are even better than centimeters. Why buy 400 grams of chips when you can get 14 oz.? Why say you are 1.8 meters when you are really 5 feet 10 inches?

      Americans just don't want to go and buy 300 ml of coke or 37 liters of gas. The imperial system works for consumer goods, no reason to change it that I can see.

      Americans are not backward because they choose to use the system that fits best into their daily life. Both systems are just as arbitrary, as pretty much any unit of measurement is. The only benefit of the metric system is that it makes math a bit easier.

      --
      Shit adds up at the bottom...
    60. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sumerians had a lot of things figured out (some say they were even aware of all the planets in our solar system).

      It's a shame that few of their writings have been translated, and some of them never may be now since Iraq was invaded and the museums raided..

    61. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah. Base-17 is much more convenient for fft-multiplication.

    62. Re:361MPH by PureCreditor · · Score: 1

      That's because the Greeks used a weird base 60 arithmetic. You have ten fingers, ten toes, and mormons have ten wives...

    63. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks man, that made me laugh = )

    64. Re:361MPH by Golias · · Score: 1

      You just said it better than I could have, iamblades. I'm happy to leave it at that.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    65. Re:361MPH by malignatus · · Score: 1

      For you Canadians, that's about 70 elk.

    66. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why buy 400 grams of chips when you can get 14 oz.?

      What's spelt "400 g" versus "14 oz.", and a metric person would likely buy "half a kilogram"

      Why say you are 1.8 meters when you are really 5 feet 10 inches?

      1.8 meters is abreviated "1 meter 80", which is better than "5 feet 10 inches", especially when performing comparisons.

      300 ml of coke

      Cans read "30 cl"

      37 liters of gas

      Yes.

      The imperial system works for consumer goods

      Objectively, it is not better.

    67. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and every time you hear about alien sightings they have 6 fingers on each hand

      The aliens don't have 6 fingers on each hand.

      They have 4 on each hand and 4 on each foot.

      This gives them a total of 16 digits (hexadecimal). A nice summary of longer binary numbers. Where do you think our modern computing equipment came from anyway? Eniac? No. Abacus. No.

      Our modern computing technolgy was birthed at Roswell when we recoverd the wreck. Yeah - its taken a long time to reverse-engineer that stuff and we are still in the infant stages of using binary machines, but we are making progress.

      6 fingers! HA! I say.

    68. Re:361MPH by glenebob · · Score: 1

      Yeah but what most of us want to know is how many Library of Congresses per hour!

    69. Re:361MPH by iamblades · · Score: 1

      Objectively, it doesn't matter at all. Neither system is 100 % perfect, it's all about what works best in certain situations, or is more comfortable to the person.

      All in all, it's no big deal, schools teach both systems, so it is up to the people to choose which they want to use. Seems to me that americans have chosen to use the metric system for applications where accurate math is required, and the imperial system in the places it works, because in my experience the imperial system usually results in more pleasing number. Subjective I know, but does it really matter what measurement I use to describe how much mountain dew and doritos I want to buy? :)

      --
      Shit adds up at the bottom...
    70. Re:361MPH by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, but would like to point out that the only reason it "works" better is because it's the system we've grown accustomed to - not because the numbers are better.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    71. Re:361MPH by addaon · · Score: 1

      Which greeks would those be? The ones that lived in sumeria?

      --

      I've had this sig for three days.
    72. Re:361MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally a usefull number. Stupid Slashdot newposter, and his racist "only metric" post. Even Rick Steves knows how to convert metric into ASU!

    73. Re:361MPH by crabpeople · · Score: 1

      "unless you are one of them crab people, then you must be restricted to binary counting I guess"

      hey i like metric!

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    74. Re:361MPH by Cyberop5 · · Score: 1

      You could consider a state of no fingers on either hand, thus giving you base 12. coincidence?

      --
      Urgo: "I want to live. I want to experience the universe and I want to eat pie!"
      Jack: "Who doesn't??"
    75. Re:361MPH by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 1

      We would all be on the metric system if not for insecure guys measuring their one inch penis. One inch is 2.54 Centimeters so measuring becomes that much more accurate. Plus or minus an inch is one thing, but plus or minus 3 and your obviously lying. Of course by the time someone is checking I suppose it wouldn't matter. :o)

    76. Re:361MPH by SEE · · Score: 1

      If God didn't want us to use 12-based meansurement systems, why do we have four fingers of three segments each on a hand, plus a thumb that can conveniently point to each one?

    77. Re:361MPH by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      The meter was defined as the quarter a 10 millionth part of the Paris meridian (i.e the Paris meridian should be 40,000km in length; there was in fact a small error made in the measurement), not the distance from Paris to the North Pole. It is not quite as arbitrary as the distance between two landmarks, one of which is man-made.

      The definition of the meter in fact spurred a major expedition to actually measure the length of this meridian, and so had some scientific value by itself. The choice of the Paris meridian is pretty much irrelevant, one had to choose one, it could have been Greenwich's or New-York's.

      At the time it was a struggle to find a meaningful reference that wasn't man-made and yielded a convenient unit. Overall the metric system has done well in this regard.

    78. Re:361MPH by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Someone has already replied along these lines, but I know exactly what 400 g of chips weigh like, how much is 300ml of any beverage and that I'm 1.78 m tall. Usually I do put about 35 l of petrol in my car and if I go at 75km/h in an urban area I should expect to be fined.

      Yes, it's no trouble if you've been used to these units since childhood.

    79. Re:361MPH by 1ns4n3c4rb0nb4s3dl1f · · Score: 1

      high-speed Japanese train set a new record of 581 kph, breaking its own previous record.

      If only we could do everything in metric, then we'd be set. I'd rather cruise at over 100 kph! than at a measly 60 mph.

      Heck, I can figure out how many meters per hour I'm going in about 1 second when using metric, but when using "standard", I waste an hour and a half trying to remember exactly how many yards there are in a mile, and I then have to multiply 60x1,(somthing) and that something is just too difficult. So, I'm looking forward to the day that I can travel 581,000 meters per hour (what, a smidgen less than 10000 meters per second?) here in America.

    80. Re:361MPH by The+Almighty+Dave · · Score: 1
      No, it doesn't work that way.

      To save time, count as high as you can in binary on one hand. If your theory is correct, you will reach 63. If not, you will reach 31.

    81. Re:361MPH by iamblades · · Score: 1

      But there is no real advantage of using these units either.

      And I have been used to those units since childhood, I just see nothing wrong with using miles/ounces/gallons/etc. in places where they work.

      --
      Shit adds up at the bottom...
  4. Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Maestro4k · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The one thing I came to like the most when I visited Japan on vacation a few years ago was the train service. Not having a car truly didn't feel like a loss when you could easily hop on a train and be where you wanted faster than you could drive there. (Especially in Tokyo.)

    I just wish the US would invest in more passenger trains. They don't have to be super fast (like the one in this article), but imagine how much fuel/electricity we could save if we could all easily commute by train. And hey, you can always sleep on the train on the way to work, something you can't do while driving. (Or rather, something you shouldn't do, I'm sure someone's tried it.)

    1. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Judg3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the reason the US as a whole doesn't invest more in trains is the fact that the country is A. Pretty big and B. Pretty Empty.
      There's a lot less people per square mile here then in Japan and the like.
      Personally, I love the Chicago transit authority. I've lived as far away as Milwaukee and still commuted into Chicago every day (in fact, living in Milwaukee the commute was shorter then a lot of other train lines - the train made 2 stops and went 80mph most of the way there, about 45 min commute). And that's just the suburban rail, the inner city railway (CTA) is pretty efficient as well, though I have less experience with it.

      I've lived all over the US, and every big city runs more or less this way. Because in that case it makes sense. More people in less area. But I can't see a Maglev from Chicago to LA being setup because for the most part this 300MPH train would run through empty land.. Small towns, few people, etc. It would have a huge maintenence cost associated with it to, as they'd have to train people all over the country or have people roaming around ensuring the rails are fine.

      --
      Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
    2. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by dbleoslow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I live in Tokyo now and if there's one thing you can almost always count on, it's the train system. I know that if my commute is 30 minutes, it will always be 30 minutes, except for the rare exception, whether it's rush hour or late at night. I go back to the DC and I'm stuck on the Beltway during rush hour for 3 hours for what is normally a 30 minute drive.

      I don't think passenger trains will ever catch on in The States. The population is just too spread out right now. Japan is roughly the size of California but with half the population of the US (If I recall correctly.) You just can't fit all those people on the roads at 1 or 2 people per car. And besides, how will all the salarymen molest the school girls if they're in a car and not crammed into a train :)

    3. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      [quote]I just wish the US would invest in more passenger trains.[/quote]

      There's a reason why Amtrak is (or was) the only profitable railway network in the world: it runs very few passenger trains. Railways don't like passengers because they're a pain in the ass, expect to get places in a hurry and complain if they're late. Freight is the only thing that makes economic sense on railways, with the exception of a few commuter services in and out of big cities with traffic congestion problems.

      [quote]imagine how much fuel/electricity we could save if we could all easily commute by train[/quote]

      Imagine how much fuel/electricity is wasted running almost empty trains the rest of the day. If saving fuel and electricity is what you're after, you'd do far better to promote telecommuting than 19th century transport technology.

    4. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure someone's tried it.

      Lots of people have tried it. Once.

    5. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by fruey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Too bad most places don't invest in more trains. However, investment usually implies a return, and most train companies lose money. The more captalistic a country is, the worse this becomes... note in the article " Central Japan Railway Co. (JR Tokai) and the government-affiliated Railway Technical Research Institute." that it's a state sponsored initiative getting these things going.

      The French TGV is one good example of a system that works, but it's not easy to replicate economically in a country like the UK where there is public outcry at any possible addition of rail links or something close to where they live (and population density is three times higher than France, so routing around people isn't as easy). The Eurostar now has high speed track for part of the link in the UK, shaving 20 minutes off total journey time, but the route is incredibly inefficient and could have been much more direct. Also, it was way off schedule!

      The US gave up on trains long ago. Flights and cars are all there is, Amtrak is a joke. Ironic that the rail revolution made the US what it is today, and it has to be the major economy that has turned its back on rail the most. High speed services coast to coast would undoubtedly be too expensive though. I think there must be a magic ratio between average distance travelled by passengers, total country size, train running cost and so on which the TGV manages to get close to. The TGV rocks.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    6. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by 0123456 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Dammit, there are far too many different bulletin board magic tag schemes these days, I can never remember which one to use where :).

    7. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Millbuddah · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you lived around the D.C. area but when I lived in Bethesda, I never had more than a 20 minute commute using the trains there. Plus the walking after disembarking the train definitely was a plus. Hell, I've gained 25 extra pounds since moving away because I don't walk nearly as much to where I need to go.

    8. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by pubjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the reason the US as a whole doesn't invest more in trains is the fact that the country is A. Pretty big and B. Pretty Empty.

      That actually sounds more like a reason why it would be sensible to have a rail system to me, rather than a reason it hasn't got one.

    9. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by 0123456 · · Score: 0

      "However, investment usually implies a return, and most train companies lose money"

      Exactly: most countries screw the taxpayer, who probably just wants better roads to drive their car on, in order to keep the train unions in a job and subsidise rich businessmen taking long-distance train rides. I presume Japan is the same, since the Shinkansen trips I made over there a few years ago cost no more than trips of a similar distance on the clunkers British Rail were running at the time.

      "Ironic that the rail revolution made the US what it is today, and it has to be the major economy that has turned its back on rail the most."

      Hardly: it should be no surprise that the nation that's quickest to abandon uneconomic technology is the most successful. If only Britain had the same attitude, rather than some Luddite desire to keep trains running no matter how bad and inefficient they may be.

    10. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by squaretorus · · Score: 1

      I had a similar commute for a couple of years - about an hour doing between 50 and 80 MPH.

      Now imagine that done at 4 times the speed - the hour becomes 15 minutes. I could get 45 minutes more sleep every morning, and 45 minutes more beer / TV / Sex / Xbox in the evenings.

      Over the course of a year thats a whole lot of extra EVERYTHING. Roll on the new trains!

    11. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by dbleoslow · · Score: 1

      If you live or work on a train line, yeah it's okay. When I say DC, I mean the whole area. I would have to go to my main office every so often out in VA where the trains don't reach and then drive back to MD. The DC metro area has spread out quite a bit in the last 20 years and rail service hasn't kept pace.

    12. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Informative

      >Exactly: most countries screw the taxpayer, who probably just wants better roads to drive their car on

      And where are you going to put these better roads? Through all those taxpayers house? More roads -> more traffic -> more congestion -> more roads ->....

      It's an endless cycle.

    13. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by BJH · · Score: 1

      /. has a list of allowable HTML tags below the submission box ;)

    14. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But train companies often have to pay for track etc. meanwhile the gov pays for the roads. The TGV is state owned afaik and the french are (justifiably) proud of it. That in itself make a big difference.

      The railways in the uk are a shambles because they have been effectively liquidated to help political popularity by offseting tax. Of course it costs more in the long run (like nuclear power) but people don't like to look longterm. They'd rather pay less tax today. Fucking consumerism.

    15. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by pdjohe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the reason the US doesn't have a better train system is...

      1. In the past, Ford wanted automobiles to be affordable enough so that every American family could own one.

      2. Gasoline is much cheaper in the US than in Europe and other parts of the world.

      3. In many parts of the US, it is impossible to get by without a car.

      4. Americans generally prefer privatization (own a car) over mass/public services.

    16. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mjpaci · · Score: 1

      Where the US could really use high speed trains is between Boston and Washington. I know we already have the Acela, but something faster would be ideal. Now if I only had a time machine, I'd go back to the early 1800's and secure myself a swatch of land 1 mile wide all the way from Boston, through Hartford, all the way to NYC. From NYC to Washington is fairly straight already.

      Connecticut is the real problem. The current train line hugs the coast and makes a lot of turns. There aren't very many areas with long straight-aways. Taking CT coastal property with eminent domain would be ridiculously expensive.

      Boston to NYC in 1 hour would kick ass.

    17. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Temporal · · Score: 1

      Not to mention a preview button...

    18. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mjpaci · · Score: 1

      I don't think Amtrak was every profitable. And by "running very few passenger trains" you mean they don't have the schedule density of Germany or France, then I'd say you're correct.

      --Mike

    19. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by whovian · · Score: 1

      Isn't a national railroad something like the "last mile" problem of wired interest access to all residential homes, insofar as the claim is that the cost is prohibitive for any single company to do? (In fact, the first US transcontinental railroad was funded by several bond issues.) I can see how there could be fast rail service between nearby metropolitan areas (Milwaukee-Chicago was mentioned) though.

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    20. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by RevMike · · Score: 1

      The problem with implementing train travel in the US is that gasoline is relatively cheap and highways plentiful. It makes it virtually impossible for railroads to price-compete in except in "rush hour commuting" situations, where the railroads offer the convenience of avoiding traffic jams.

      An average price for gasoline in the US is about $1.60 per gallon. That is roughly 40 cents per liter. Again making a rough conversion that translates to about 0.25Eur per liter. I believe that, in the UK, about 1 Eur per liter is typical.

      Given that driving is so relatively cheap, people spread out more. They would rather have more than an acre of land in a semirural envirnment than live in a semi-urban row house. They don't care that the semi-urban home provides walking access to mass transit because they don't need mass transit. They'll drive everywhere.

      Also, they'll drive rather than take a train for those regional trips. It is cheaper and easier to drive from NY to Boston. And no one will take a train fron NY to San Francisco when they can fly. Cheap gasoline means there is no niche for trains in the US.

    21. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by rpjs · · Score: 1

      I think the OP was confusing Amtrak, the US's nationalised passenger railway operator, with the entire US railway network. Whilst Amtrak runs all over the US, it mostly runs over tracks owned by private companies that run freight services. Amtrak only owns the track between Boston and Washington (which incidentally is the only part of Amtrak that makes any money).

      Rail freight, if done right, can be very profitable, especially for moving bulk materials like minerals over long distances, where rail is the most economical mode of transport by far.

      Of course the private companies don't like the Amtrak passenger trains getting in the way of their nice profitable freight services which is why Amtrak has such a poor time-keeping record off of the BOS-WAS corridor.

    22. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      "A. Pretty big"

      Yep

      "and B. Pretty Empty."

      Yep, ON AVERAGE

      but most Americans - just like everyone else in the world - live near to each other in towns and cities.

      I live in Britain, there are 59 200 000 of us here, and 241 590 sq km of land - so we should have just over an acre each.

      We don't, though. Anyone figure out why?

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    23. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by boogy+nightmare · · Score: 1

      Bugger me, when did the UK switch to the Euro... and in the UK its litre

      --
      Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
    24. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 1

      I faintly remember that the US Gov't subsidised Amtrak routes that weren't profitable. Routes between NY, DC, and Philadelphia were very profitable. However, the routes between places like Boise and Pierre just weren't making money. Trains cost a lot to maintain. Trains are great MASS transportation. However, trains just don't justify their operating cost in rural areas. When the gov't subsidized the trains, Amtrak didn't have to optimize or cut their losing routes. It's a lot like what happened to the Auto industry when they had problems competing with foriegn imports. So, yeah trains are fast, they cut down on pollution, and are very convient in big cities, but I don't know to what extent the US Gov't should subsidize this. Maybe some state gov'ts could try to find a few companies to start a joint venture.

      Capitalism usually has a solution. I know some people may take offense to that remark. However, look at Walmart or UPS. Both deliver/cater to rural parts of the US. They do quite well because of it. Somehow they've streamlined the process enough to make money.

      So my point is gov't subsidies may be the wrong way to go. Either way, if you're interested in this subject, you should really google Amtrak and subsidies. You'll find a lot of editorials for both sides of the subject.

      Plus, there is the point to be made that not every American wants or needs trains. Should the tax dollars of someone in Idaho go to pay for trains in New York?

      --
      What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
    25. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by sznupi · · Score: 1

      There's a reason why Amtrak is (or was) the only profitable railway network in the world: it runs very few passenger trains. Railways don't like passengers because they're a pain in the ass, expect to get places in a hurry and complain if they're late. Freight is the only thing that makes economic sense on railways, with the exception of a few commuter services in and out of big cities with traffic congestion problems. Actually, that is also dependant on density of population/size of the country/other factors. For example here, in Poland, cargo trains are MOST unprofitable of them all (polish national railways were divided into many companies, each doing "its job"), while most lucrative and profitable market is Intercity trains - fast passenger trains, stopping every ~70km at cities at least near to 100'000 citizens (well...on the line near which I live - and it's similar in other places), passing 90% of stations (yes, there's such density of them here) Imagine how much fuel/electricity is wasted running almost empty trains the rest of the day. If saving fuel and electricity is what you're after, you'd do far better to promote telecommuting than 19th century transport technology. Bullshit. Not only the energy economy during rush hours FAAAR exceeds this "waste", but average train uses 100 litres of cheap oil per 100km, or equivalent in electrical energy (which is even more efficient) - it means that even if only 20 people would use normal, full blown train for travel instead of a car, this would still be more efficient - and there's always more people (besides, if not, there is solution to this here: during rush hour use big, full blown train, but when there'll be small number of passangers use smaller trains, similar to tram somewhow, or even railbuses - only 30 litres of oil per 100km: http://ams1.lo3.wroc.pl/tomek/tournee.php?p=12767 http://www.tkk.net.pl/marcoos/podstr/zdj/13/03.jpg http://www.koscierzyna.gda.pl/aktualnosci/archiwum /2003/fotki/szynobus2.jpg http://murowana.jdm.pl/komunikacja/szynobus/img/ar t-213mrzut.JPG http://www.pzlublin.pkp.pl/web/an11.jpg) There's a VERY good reason why trains were the standard in transportation during 19th cetury - humanity didn't have acces to powerfull energy sources then, so we had to use efficient methods of transportation that could use available energy source at its fullest potential.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    26. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by sznupi · · Score: 1

      weird...above message was divided to paraghraphs when clicking submit :/

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    27. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      All too true, except blame #1 on Hoover more than ford because of his car and road subsidies (two chickens in every pot and a car in every garage or whatnot).

    28. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Exactly: most countries screw the taxpayer, who probably just wants better roads to drive their car on, in order to keep the train unions in a job and subsidise rich businessmen taking long-distance train rides.

      Who said the taxpayer just wants a better road? If he isn't American, he doesn't want to, he may just want better trains! (like me: I have no car). The real problem is that investment is long long long term, and nearly no company has long long long term vision, so they cannot do that... Also the existence of train benefits the whole country: having the heart of Bruxels being 1 hour 25 away from the heart of Paris is a big plus: yeah from the businessman point of view, from the policians point of view (EU meetings), from the average-people-point-of-view (vacations!). Being linked quickly to London, Brussels, and Amsterdam (among other things), both from "heart-of-Paris" and "Paris airport", is a huge plus for companies willingly to settle somewhere.

      Hardly: it should be no surprise that the nation that's quickest to abandon uneconomic technology is the most successful.

      But train isn't necessarily uneconomic... It may not made as much sense in US, but it's mostly a cultural thing: Americans want their car, and are used to. It's not like SUV are more economic, they are just a cultural thing. It's like you go in Singapore, and because taxis are dirt cheap, it makes no sense to have a car (even if you are rich enough to pay the $150,000 in right to have a car and so on, before you can actually buy a car).

    29. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Epeeist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Hardly: it should be no surprise that the nation that's quickest to abandon uneconomic technology is the most successful. If only Britain had the same attitude, rather than some Luddite desire to keep trains running no matter how bad and inefficient they may be.

      Manchester to London is about 2 hours 30m, even on Virgin trains. Driving takes anything from 4 hours upwards, dependent on when you start. So if I have a London meeting I can do it in a day by train. If I go by car I can`t.

      As far as I am concerned that makes it efficient. As for economic, if you actually added in all the costs, such as the time I save, the work I can do on the train, the telephone calls I can legally answer, the hotel bills I don`t have to pay, then the overall economic equation comes out much more evenly.

      The road builder`s arguments never take the human factors into account.

      Do I believe that rail travel is currently wonderful in the UK? Absolutely not, but it is much better than the Luddites in cars give it credit for.

    30. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      most countries screw the taxpayer, who probably just wants better roads to drive their car on, in order to keep the train unions in a job
      And who do you think pays for the roads, if not the taxpayer?
      The fact is that the road industry is as heavily subsidized, but far more deadly and far most costly to the environment. It's just not (yet) fashionable to say so in so-called "civilized" countries.
    31. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      Hardly: it should be no surprise that the nation that's quickest to abandon uneconomic technology is the most successful.

      When all costs are accounted for, rail is much more economical. It's only because fuel prices are artifically low - you're not paying all the costs of road building and maintenance at the pump, much less the costs of Iraqi occupation, air pollution, oil spills, ecological destruction from road construction - that the automobile is in the running. If both rail fares and pump prices reflected true cost - estimated by some around $5/gallon - it would be clear that rail wins out.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    32. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by tekunokurato · · Score: 4, Informative

      You do realize that the subsidies that Amtrack and most local train utilities recieve are less than half of what similar road spending requires, right? Think of roads as direct subsidies to the car companies; boston (used as an example because I live there, not because it's an extreme case) subsidizes about 60% of the MBTA's budget, but spends more than that every year on roads even discounting the fiasco that is the big dig. The MBTA serves over 700,000 people daily, and the central artery will serve less than 300,000 drivers, as per Mass Highway Department estimates). Other cities are the same, so citing subsidies to public transport but NOT citing road costs depicts a situation only the car companies would claim is true.

    33. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      While I was working in Silicon Valley, there was discussion and plans to implement a high-speed train from San Francisco to Los Angeles via Sacramento.

      The main obstacle to getting the proposal approved was getting planning permission from the planning desk of each little itty-bitty city along the way. Unfortunately, just about every city would only give permission if a train-station/stopping point was built within their boundaries. The accumulative effect of these demands was to stretch the proposed 90 minute journey to around 3 hours, which was longer than the 3 hour total shuttle flight by aeroplane the train was supposed to replace. The plans were shelved.

    34. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone outside of Japan thinks their railway was a success, but it was the worst failure imaginable.

      The companies that built it accumulated $279 billion in debt that the government ended up paying off. For most of its history, the Japanese bullet train was the least efficient form of mass transportation in the world, losing 5 times as much per passenger mile as any other railroad. Even after privitization, the system requires gigantic government subsidies. If you want more, try to find Karl Zinsmeister's "MITI Mouse" in Policy Review.

      The U.S. doesn't invest more in super-fast passenger trains because there's no market for it. The abject failure of trains in Japan from anything but a narrow geek perspective doesn't help.

    35. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by sznupi · · Score: 0

      oh crap, 404 in two links - so in case you won't notice, just remove the spaces

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    36. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The problem with implementing train travel in the US is that gasoline is relatively cheap and highways plentiful. It makes it virtually impossible for railroads to price-compete in except in "rush hour commuting" situations, where the railroads offer the convenience of avoiding traffic jams.

      It's more complicated, because the new generation of trains, like the French TGV are FAST. Fast means, an average 125 mph (200 km/h) counting the old tracks on which it has to drive slowly, and a normal speed of nearly 200 mph (300 km/h) on the newer lines. Try beating it with a car.

      Given that driving is so relatively cheap, people spread out more. They would rather have more than an acre of land in a semirural envirnment than live in a semi-urban row house.

      That's definitly true, but then you can complement with a bike, buses, taxis or a small car. Biking is a plus for your health.

    37. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by dillboy · · Score: 1

      Florida, long known for its technological leadership, is surging forward with this offering.

      Oh wait, it took them 3 years just to get a Flash website? Sigh...guess I'll have to watch class on the web again.

    38. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the high-speed train will take too long.

      A plane trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, isn't 3 hours. It is more like 1 hour 15 minutes (gate to gate with 45 minutes in the air).

      This is faster than 90 minutes for a high speed train.

      Also, there is no way that a high speed train could be less expensive than an air plane.

      Additionally, there are 5 commerical airports in Southern California and 3 in the Bay Area. There are usually flights every hour to hour and half between all of these locations. With a trian, you are limited to stops along the route.

      Even with high-speed rail, I have trouble envisioning more than a couple of trips per day between these locations. Why would somoene choose that over air service that is as reliablie if not more so than a regular bus route.

    39. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      I think the reason the US doesn't have a better train system is... 1. In the past, Ford wanted automobiles to be affordable enough so that every American family could own one.

      Nah, it was decided way earlier than that and cars were not competative for long distance travel until the mid-30s. The problem with trains in the US is that the Country is simply too big and the number of train lines too small.

      Trains work great in the UK (well sorta) because it is a small country sizewise with a very high population density and lots or rail lines. The quickest way of getting door to door from A to B without using a car is almost always the train.

      The Japan train looks interesting for pretty much the same reason, similar population density. If the train goes at half the speed of a jet it can easily outpace a jet on time taken gate to gate on any flight less than two hours. The train may take four hours to cover the same distance but you don't have the same travel time on each end or the hour long waits to board. Train stations are almost always more convenient than airports to get to.

      The place where business interests fouled up the public transit system in the US was inside the cities. One city sold its fine public transit system to a consortium of General Motors, Firestone and Standard Oil. Guess what they did with it?

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    40. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While the reason, initially, was a corrupt business/government situation, the public aversion to trains is now more cultural than anything else.

      As the nation grew, the auto industry fought to suppress the train industry and succeeded. Now trains are mostly relegated to freight. Sure there are occasional passenger train systems across the nation... there are two in my general area (DART and The-T) but AMTRAK doesn't exist out here. And since we all have cars instead of buses and trains (largely! must I qualify my assertions constantly?) our impressions of the buses and trains that DO exist are negative since they are often in our way! Buses are big and slow in busy city streets and you can't see around them. Rail crossings are also a bitter annoyance with accidents and long waits while trains cross our roads... now we HATE TRAINS and and HATE BUSES. It would be difficult for most Americans to see these methods as anything but an annoyance.

      The only way for these views to be overcome is for there to be competition between trains and airlines as others have previously hinted. We're annoyed at air travel... ESPECIALLY NOW! Trains could be far more beneficial to business travellers today if there were a good rail system in place. The trouble is, as always, the cost of roll-out.

      Now rolling out new technology in the US is not like doing it in smaller countries. If we didn't "grow" into it, and cannot easily "migrate" into it, then adoption will always be very slow. The fact is, we are a large continent. The cost of roll-out it enormous and the cost of failure is immeasurable. Japan is a very limited area so roll-out costs and failure costs are more acceptable. And since we are not a dictatorship, our government can't simply say "This is better so you will use it!" giving us no option but to change... we all have to want to change. We don't. We hate to change except when the TV tells us to... hrm... there's an idea...

    41. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Ba3r · · Score: 1

      Remember that the infrastructure for cars is paid for by the taxpayers. And don't limit infrastructure to just road construction and maintenance, add all the regulatory facets too (police speed control, license and registration issues... even drunk driving accidents that could be prevented).

      I doubt, with all things considered, that cars as primary transportation has a higher return. Think about it: 1 person per 4 passenger vehicle, individuals given responsibility over a several thousand pound hunk of metal - compared to: 200+ people per 1 vehicle (train), 1 driver given control over the vehicle on a determined track. And just think about the energy usage.

    42. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by ViolentGreen · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think they did that in October. It was all over the news. Where were you?

      --
      Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
    43. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      But you must have selected "HTML Formatted" instead of "Plain Old Text". The secret is that you don't have to select "HTML Formatted" in order to use HTML (like your emphasis on what you quoted).

      If you do use HTML formatted, you'll need to manually insert paragraph tags between paragraphs.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    44. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1

      >So my point is gov't subsidies may be the wrong way to go.

      If you are so upset about government subsidies, you may want to stay off the US's Interstate highway system. Since its inception in the 50's *every single mile* was, has and always will be built with government (your) money. If the system had to exist based upon tolls and tariffs, how many miles of freeway do you think would be built?

      A perfect example of this was the degradation of the system that occurred in the last part of the 20th Century. Federal and local money for highway maintenance largely dried up due to changing priorities. The result? Potholes, rotting and rusting bridges and very few new freeways.

      Did private industry step in to fill the void? Not a chance. Did the oil companies, car companies and other businesses whose continued good health depends upon the highways remaining in good repair offer a cent to fix the problem? No. They did what they always do--complained to local Congressperson.

      "Roadways are too crowded and it's affecting deliveries", they said.

      "Potholes are causing damage to our trucks", they complained.

      And thus the highways were "fixed" (sort of) with a new round of Federal spending. Was this paid for with tolls, taxes or other revinue received directly from the highways themselves? No, that money stays largely in the states. The money came out of the general budget, therefore, a subsidy.

      I think capitalism is largely good, too. It just doesn't seem work well for massive projects such as country-wide transportation systems or (I know I shouldn't mention this...) the precursor to the Internet.

    45. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1
      And since we are not a dictatorship, our government can't simply say "This is better so you will use it!" giving us no option but to change...

      Has that stopped the government from attempting to force everyone to switch over to digital television?

    46. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the reason is that the cost would cut into the subsidies that the highway and air industries collect. Trains would make sense for those areas where 80% of the population live.

    47. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A plane trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, isn't 3 hours. It is more like 1 hour 15 minutes (gate to gate with 45 minutes in the air).

      Does this include all the security BS? I don't think that I've been to an airport in the last year that didn't add at least a half hour to my flight because of security. Heck, from DC to Detroit, I drive because, though the flight time is much less, with security it's only a couple of hours longer to drive.

      With a trian, you are limited to stops along the route.

      Okay, this might seem a bit anal, but how many places along the way can you stop on a plane? Last time I checked all of the fast flights (ones without "continuing service to...") only had a single destination.

      Even with high-speed rail, I have trouble envisioning more than a couple of trips per day between these locations.

      Fact for you: Multiple trains can use the same track. This basically means that you can run a train every half hour or hour, just like a plane.

      Why would somoene choose that over air service that is as reliablie if not more so than a regular bus route.

      I have no idea what airlines you use, but I've experienced worse delays for air travel than any other form of transportation.

    48. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Golias · · Score: 1

      I'm very anti-train for most of America, but I agree with you on that one. The East Coast has a dense enough population for a train system to make a lot of sense. Out here in the lands of the Louisiana Purchace, trying to install a mass-transit system on fixed lines is just stupid. The city of Minneapolis just piddled away billions on a rail line from the airport to our downtown area which will do nothing to releive traffic and will never be utilized enough to pay for itself with fares alone. Our transportation taxes (we pay a "gas tax" to avoid the need for toll roads) will be subsidizing this absurd project for as long as it continues to run.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    49. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get sick of that argument. It is not an endless cycle, there is a limit to the amount of traffic because there is a limit to the amount of people that can live in a given space. The assumption that there is an unlimited supply of traffic is plainly ridiculous.

    50. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by gregeth · · Score: 1

      Okay, I don't think anyone else has said it yet. One of the biggest reasons that the US won't work on the development on systems such as the Maglev, is the airline industry. That would be in direct competition with the airlines, which is an extremely lucrative industry. Just to show how much, here is a document showing the industry as a whole over the past 10 years or so. Having a high speed rail system would mean that airlines would have to lower their artificially high set prices to keep business.

    51. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Dahan · · Score: 1
      Sure there are occasional passenger train systems across the nation... there are two in my general area (DART and The-T) but AMTRAK doesn't exist out here.

      I assume you're in the Dallas (DART)/Ft. Worth (The T) area... maybe you meant "doesn't exist" in a figurative sense, but Amtrak definitely does exist in your area. There's a train station in downtown Ft. Worth, where the Texas Eagle stops (same place where the TRE stops). Never been on the Texas Eagle before, but I've been meaning to try an Austin to Ft. Worth trip someday. The only problem is that once I get to Ft. Worth, I don't have any convenient transportation to get to where I need to go.

    52. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Galvatron · · Score: 1
      You would think that, but you'd be wrong. In point of fact, even these super high speed trains Japan is rolling out are slower than a jumbo jet, especially considering that trains generally have to make stops along the way. On the other hand, you have to get to airports early, and it takes a little while to take off and land. So, the longer the journey, the more efficient airplanes are.

      Conversely, getting to the train stations takes a little while, and you have to adjust your schedule to meet the timetable. So for very short trips, cars are more efficient (until traffic becomes a problem, so old and overcrowded cities tend to have the best subway systems).

      So now that we've established that trips within an urban area, as well as coast to coast trips, are more efficient by car or plane respectively, it should be clear that Americans just don't make enough medium length trips for rail service to be useful. The one place where Amtrak does make money is the Northeast Corridor, Boston to New York

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    53. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mbbac · · Score: 1

      There's an alliance of Southeastern states that are supposedly looking into high speed rail interconnecting the metro areas. I'd love to see that happen, but I'm sceptical it ever will. A down economy would be the perfect time to start a large project like that too.

      --

      mbbac

    54. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the taxpayers get the foot the bill regardless, maybe they should get to choose which solution they prefer.

      Oh wait... they have.

    55. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mbbac · · Score: 1

      I found the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor Website.

      --

      mbbac

    56. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Uh... even mass transit proponents hate busses. They're slow and uncomfortable. Just like a car except less convenient. Light rail has real advantages to the individual. The only advantage to busses is that they're cheaper than your own car.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    57. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by cybercuzco · · Score: 1

      Except that planes travel 10 times faster and cars travel at approximately the same speed but without a scedule. When trains travel faster than cars (in the US) and go places planes dont, or cant economically they will catch on again. For example commuter rail like VRE in virginia is popular because it goes where planes cant. If VRE went 150 mph it would be even more popular.aned of course the obligitory If the US invested as much in rails as it does in roads, rails would be much more viable. For example, the actual rails in the railroad are all privately owned wherease the roads for cars are all publicly owned. If the money for roads came from an increase in the gas tax rather than from income tax, people would flock to rails.

      --

    58. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      The US has the most advanced mass transit system in the world. As a matter of fact, it's so advanced that you can go anywhere you want, anytime day or night, in complete privacy and comfort.

    59. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Actually the US hasn't given up on trains, just passenger trains. The US (along with Canada) has perhaps the most efficient and utilized freight rail system in the world, with some of the lowest rates. Oh, and it's also almost completely unsubsidized. The freight rail industry is supposed to be one of the fastest growing industry's next year.

      When you think about it, it makes more sense to ship goods on rail and people by automobile. I think our system makes plenty of sense.

    60. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Politburo · · Score: 1

      The fact that stops are made along the way is a Good Thing and makes the system more efficient, especially in terms of passenger desirability. Planes go from Point A to Point B and that is it. If I were flying from DC to New Brunswick, NJ, I would have to fly from DC into Newark and then take a train/bus/car south for about 30 minutes. If I took the train, I could get on in DC, and get off in New Brunswick, 10 minutes from my house.

      Basically my point is that if you don't want to go from Point A to Point B, but from Point A' (after Point A) to Point B' (before Point B), you can do this on a train. Trains can service smaller stops and smaller runs with much, much less impact than planes. There is very little cost to stop the train, save the 3-5 minutes and energy used during accelleration.

    61. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      The money comes out of our general budget? About 40% of funds to pay for roads is paid for by gas taxes. Another 20% are paid for by car taxes and fees. The other 40% is paid for out of the general funds... however, due to the anti-tax movement in the US this will probably continue to drop.

      Another factoid:

      Automobile subsidy: .02 cents per mile.

      Amtrak subsidy: 23 cents-per-mile

    62. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      owning a car is not privatization, because all cars go on roads, that are paid for by taxes. The subsidies involved in high speed trains are about the same as those spent on roads.

    63. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    64. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Note the timeline in the SEHSR website. It's 13 years long goal is to develop a finalised agenda for potential construction. Therein lies the true reason why the US doesn't invest in trains, they are simply too slow to begin building anything of consequence. In most every major city in the US land has been acquired for rights of way which lay fallow and devoid of anything for decades (some over 40 years!!!) while intra-city departments and transit agencies and unions battle for control.

      As long as politicians and unions have sway in the US nothing of significance will occur any longer on this continent.

    65. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      From the article I read, the proposal was to help business commuters get from an SF office to a LA office. Taking into account travelling to the nearest airport by taxi/train, checking-in, going through security, flying, picking up excess luggage, waiting in a taxi queue, then taking the taxi to the other office, the high-speed train would be faster, especially if the stations were in central downtown in all cities. Caltrain do run an hourly (every 10 minutes at rush-hour) service from San Francisco to San Jose. But that takes around 3 hours, given a 3-5 minute stop at around 20 stations. A month long pass cost around at most 60 dollars.

    66. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by plastik55 · · Score: 1

      Which is why the US has the best freight rail system in the world.

      What were we talking about again?

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    67. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful
      As the nation grew, the auto industry fought to suppress the train industry and succeeded. Now trains are mostly relegated to freight.
      A nice Big Business conspiracy theory, but it's nonsense. For long distance passenger travel, it was the airlines that killed the railroads. In the densely urban Eastern Corridor (Chicago, around the lakes to the Washington/Boston Corridor), there is more passenger traffic than ever before. One reason the airlines won is their greater convience, the other is that the could operate at a lower margin because of their much lower capital investment and maintenance requirements. (Railroads owned and had to maintain their tracks and right of way, air is free however, and airports were paid for and maintained by municipalities for the most part.)

      What the auto industry killed was the local *trolley systems* (intraurban vice the interurban provided by the railroads).
    68. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by erroneus · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's not theory, it's history. The auto industry activiely lobbied for taking funds away from railroads and putting them into highway development. It's in the books. Don't make me cite references... I kinda thought everyone knew about that. This was before air travel was taken seriously.

    69. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have taken Amtrak to Chicago from MLW.
      Metra runs as far north as Kenosha.
      The UP-North line is a dog, as it has to make a zillion stops along the way.

    70. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by StarFace · · Score: 1
      What? I take the bus twice a day and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I also use light-rail occasionally as well, but over the past two years I've spent as much as two hours a day on buses, or as little as half an hour. Personally I love riding the bus. I wouldn't trade having a car for it at all. I can read; listen to music; write; sit and stare out the window.

      The problem with light-rail, not from a user standpoint, is the cost. They are super expensive to install, especially since it usually requires demolition/re-zoning/compensation/construction/etc . to lay down the rails and feed power lines along the length of them. Buses are far cheaper, they utilize the existing infrastructure. You are right from a user standpoint though. I like riding the rail much more than the bus. It is smoother, and more quiet. It just isn't feasible for most cities to install light-rail on a large scale.

      --
      V
    71. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is very little cost to stop the train, save the 3-5 minutes and energy used during accelleration"

      Modern trains can use dynamic braking. This means that the electric motors are used as generators during braking, feeding power back into the power line while the train is slowing down. This does not apply to situations where the train must brake hard, since then conventional brakes must be used as well.

    72. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by n9fzx · · Score: 1

      Gas taxes pay for maintenance, not construction, which is far more expensive.

      --
      ...-.-
    73. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by sonic_ak · · Score: 1

      3. In many parts of the US, it is impossible to get by without a car.

      I'm going to have to disagree with that. There are some areas where it is nearly impossible to get along without a car, for example, Alaska. OTOH, I live in Anchorage, AK and I get along just fine on my bike. I agree that it simply wouldn't be feasable for the large majority of the population up here, with kids and all, but then again, Alaska is a special case, with better bike paths or better public transportation, it would be relatively easy to get along without a car.

      --
      Sig is a crazy old German guy.
    74. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      People who drive cars are Luddites? Apparently you know nothing about cars then. Heh.

    75. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Galvatron · · Score: 1
      Right, that was my point. The Northeast is the only area that's densly populated enough for multiple stops to make sense, and has the right kind of intermediate length trips to make it time efficient. Most of the USA is not like that.

      Someone elsewhere was suggesting a Vegas to San Diego route. Well, the problem is, you'd have about 10 people get on or off at each stop in between, and then the train would totally empty out at the end. Japan is ideal for trains, because there are many highly populated cities in a reasonably sized area (about the size of California is my understanding, though I've never been there), more or less linearly laid out. The USA is more likely to have a few isolated islands amidst an enormous empty sea. The Northeast is an exception. The Midwest is not conveniently shaped (to hit the major cities, you have to go way the hell out of your way), and the West Coast is just not dense enough yet (but it is rapidly growing, small towns are becoming big towns, maybe in another 10 years it'll start making sense to have a railway along the coast).

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    76. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dumbass, the problem is the fuck heads who insist upon driving their SUVs everywhere instead of using the transit system because their penises are inverted and they need a Lexus symbol to compensate, not the people who make the transit system.

    77. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mandalayx · · Score: 1

      One reason why we don't have trains is because of AMTRAK. Sad to say even Mr. Dukakis as captain couldn't solve it (surprising?)

      The CEO of JetBlue (a low cost airline) claims this is because of AMTRAK's government affiliation, and in particular because local politicians insist on running routes to non-profitable and perhaps non-interesting destinations. link to JetBlue interview

      And you'll see that in the US, the alternatives seem to be working OK. We spend billions of dollars on highways and I can fly 500 miles on Southwest Airlines for $26 each way.

      As I drove back from class today, I wished I could be a benevolent dictator and build mass transit everywhere. Yet I agree with earlier posts in that the public desire just doesn't exist at this point. For a case study, check out Orange County, CA, where the City of Irvine voted down plans to have a light-rail system connecting to its university. You don't have to look too much further down to South OC to see the consequences of exclusive car dependence. These are the kinds of attitudes that motivate my desire to live somewhere else.

      What I want to know is this:
      How can we get people to move via public transport?
      It seems there are only two ways to go with this.
      a) Make public transport more appealing
      b) Make car travel less appealing

      I'm not sure (b) is working out. The summed costs of cars are enormous--$200/mo for insurance, $60/mo for parking, ~$60/mo for gas, and then however much you pay to lease/finance the car and the possible risk of an accident, etc. And these are the only ones I can measure..

    78. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by cynicalmoose · · Score: 1

      Problems with High Speed Rail Links in the UK:

      1) Lack of space. A big problem with the channel tunnel rail link was that the decent routes went through population centres, and the curves are too sharp.

      2) Lack of existing functioning rail infrastructure. The TGV project travels on standard track for some of its journey (in Paris, and in some other places); Britain's rail network is too badly built, and unreliable for that.

      --
      Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
    79. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      They don't have to be super fast (like the one in this article), but imagine how much fuel/electricity we could save if we could all easily commute by train.

      The only way to build a system where we could all easily commute by train would be to make trains which could go from any location to any other at any time we wanted them to. In other words, we'd have to make taxicabs, and call them trains. We wouldn't save fuel, and we wouldn't save electricity.

      The United States is built upon the idea that people have freedom of where to live, where to work, and when to travel between those two locations. You just can't do that with a commuter rail system, except perhaps in the most dense of cities. Even then you lose convenience. Try getting from one random apartment to another in New York City at 3 in the morning. Even if you call a cab you've gotta wait for it to come pick you up. Otherwise it's walk to the subway station, wait for half an hour for a train, then walk from the station to your destination. And that assumes both locations are near the same train route. If you've got to switch trains 2, 3, or even 4 times, you can forget about convenience.

      Your experience in Japan may have been better, but chances are most of your destinations were places that a lot of other people were going to as well. I've worked in New York city, and took the train every day. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than driving, but on those times when I really had to get there fast I took my car (and sucked up the ridiculous parking fees). Actually, the fastest way when I was coming from Jersey is usually to drive to the PATH station, park there, and then take the PATH. When coming from NY State driving usually was the best. And this was before the mandatory carpooling in the tunnels. If you can afford to pay some homeless guy to travel through the tunnel with you that might turn out to be even faster.

    80. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by killmeplease · · Score: 0

      There is a simple reason for the lack of investment in trains in the US. THE US AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY. The automibile industry spends millions of dollars lobbying politicians not to build or subsidize the train system any more than they have to. Between this and marketing the great features of cars and the freedom that cars can provide, there is not the public interest necessary to make politicians invest in passenger rail travel. They have been talking about railways in Southern California for years, including one from LA to Las Vegas that would take 1 hour (a bullet train) and one from Orange County to Los Angeles that would take 30 minutes that would help the immense polution and insane traffic that polutes the lifestyle of the residents here. I don't see the downside to creating better public transportation in a place that is a nightmare because of cars. Do you?

      --
      - Kill Yourself, spare us all! -
    81. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      No.

      It makes perfect sense to me, and I get sick, of the people who get sick of the argument. Living space has little to do with traffic ceilings. There really is no ceiling to the profound stupidity of car drivers with ulcers.

    82. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Coneasfast · · Score: 1

      I think the reason the US as a whole doesn't invest more in trains is the fact that the country is A. Pretty big and B. Pretty Empty.
      There's a lot less people per square mile here then in Japan and the like.


      it should be in areas of high traffic and high density, imagine a maglev service from LA to San Fran and maybe even all of Cali or the whole west coast, sure it would be very expensive to build and operate, but would there be people to pay the high prices? definitely ...

      --
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    83. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking here about a train travelling nearly 600kph. Not that much slower than an airliner cruising at 800-900kph...

    84. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the subsidies that Amtrack and most local train utilities recieve are less than half of what similar road spending requires, right?

      The roads carry a LOT more passengers and freight. (Actual cost per trip on subsidized urban mass transit, including the subsidy, is often in the hundreds of bucks.)

      Roads carry passengers and fraight almost directly from where they were to where they want to go, too.

      Most importantly, those "subsidies" are paid for primarily from fuel taxes and tolls, which come straight out of the pockets of the actual users of the roads. Yes there are other funding sources - but fuel taxes and tolls get ripped off big-time to subsidize other things too - mainly trains and busses. The fuel taxes collected have been more than enough to pay for the roads.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    85. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by tekunokurato · · Score: 3, Informative

      The fuel taxes collected have been more than enough to pay for the roads.

      Maybe in Europe with high gas taxes, but not over here. The United states has artificially low gas prices that definitely do NOT reflect the actual cost of gas use.

      In Boston, the T system moves 700,000 people on an average day, and costs are bare minimum compared to the big dig, which is estimated by the Mass highway department to positively affect about 190,000 (those who are sped by it during rush hour and other heavy-traffic times; those who drive in low traffic could care less for the improvements). Though the big dig makes Boston a *slightly* extreme example, I was speaking just yesterday with a friend of mine who interned on project approval this summer at the federal DOT, and only a few percent of the budget goes to subsidize public transit, and it's NOT covered by gas taxes. This is likewise true for state DOTs.

    86. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by ZerroDefex · · Score: 1

      Plus most Americans like to drive their cars and some will use any excuse to do so. Traffic doesn't bother me much if it isn't rush hour. Plus some of our tollways around Chicago have quick express lanes for those who don't drive like old ladies.

    87. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the subsidy benefits trucking companies and independant truck owners who do "intercity" hauling more than anyone else. Semi-trucks and loaded trailers do far, far more damage to roads than passenger vehicles do.
      Rail is very good for freight, to the point that I would much prefer to get these oversized and hazardous semi trucks and trailers off public roads completely. I have nothing at all agaist the people who work in this business, I just think the public should stop subsidizing it and start forcing freight to go to rail.

    88. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It's not theory, it's history. The auto industry activiely lobbied for taking funds away from railroads and putting them into highway development.
      ROTFL. There was damm little federal money given to support the railroads. The relationship between the railroads and goverment was cordial hostility at best, which dates from the trustbuster era and the way the goverment nationalized the railroads during WWI. Even if what you say was true, the automotive industry failed signally, as they didn't replace the railroads for long distance travel, airlines did. As I said before, what the automotive industry killed was the intraurban railroads (trolleys), which were a very different kettle of fish from the big national railroads. *Don't* confuse the two.

      In fact, most of the large railroads were relieved to be rid of passenger traffic, as it barely broke even, and generally lost money. They maintained it as long as they did because passenger trains served to keep the railroad name in the public eye, and in hope that 'brand recognition' would lead them to choose that road for freight shipment.

      The airlines easily bested the railroads after WWII because of the the condition of the railroads. Between the Great Depression and WWII very little new equipment was purchased. During WWII the massive amounts of traffic served to wear out what equipment there was. As a result, when it came time to compete, the railroads were in a hole because of the amounts of capital investment required to repair the damage, while airlines needed only buy equipment.

      That highlights a key difference that continues to handicap railroads. Airports and seaports are generally built by goverments (local/state/federal) who hope to recoup construction costs via a higher tax base. Only operations costs are paid for by user fees, (every time you fly, some of the money you paid goes to the airport you depart from and arrive at). Highways are built and maintained the same way. Thus shipping lines, truck lines, and airlines only need pay for their operating equipment, and some overhead. Their capital costs are far lower than that of the railroads. OTOH, railroads own and maintain their own physical plant, as well as their own operating equipment, thus vastly increasing their capital costs.

      It's in the books. Don't make me cite references...
      Don't bother, I've seen them. 99% of them make the same mistake you are, they confuse the passenger services of the big railroads with the passenger operations of the intraurbans. These are two very different markets, despite superficial similarities.
      I kinda thought everyone knew about that.
      Everyone thinks they know it, and the enviromentalist lobby uses these myths in their fight against the automobile. But again, this is a result of the confusion between the local intraurban services and the long haul services.
    89. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Ironic that the rail revolution made the US what it is today, and it has to be the major economy that has turned its back on rail the most.
      The railroad freight revolution made the US. Only one major railroad out of the dozens that existed ever made money from passenger operations. The remainder carried passengers to foster brand recognition for their freight services, it was felt that the operating losses were made up in advertising value.
    90. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by line.at.infinity · · Score: 1

      > I live in Tokyo now and if there's one thing you can almost always count on, it's the train system.

      Except for people committing suicides by jumping on the railway, and causing delays. There were at least 2 yesterday in Tokyo.

    91. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 1

      There do exist private owned toll roads in this country. Not many, but a few. No one tries to fill the void, because the governemnt already has. Not only do we often remove the inscentive, we often make it a pain in the ass to do anything.

      --
      What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
    92. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by freddyisthedevil · · Score: 0

      http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/ctc06.html What's good for General Motors is good for America!

    93. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by kmankmankman2001 · · Score: 1

      Where the hell do you live? Most of the folks I work with commute by train. They live in the Chicago 'burbs and take Metra downtown and then back home. I already live in the city and have a number of options - CTA, driving, cab - but there's a ton of workers that live in the 'burbs and take trains to Chicago jobs and back home to 'burban homes. This is the 'commute by train' that you reference. An entirely different matter is how in other countries they travel intercity/intercountry via rail and don't drive, but there's way more commuting via train here in the US than you appear to be aware of.

      --
      "The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
    94. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by fruey · · Score: 1

      The revolution of railway was not carrying people around and back again; rather, the construction of track itself, with the teams that did the work setting up towns at regular intervals along the tracks as they sought to give up laying track and settling down in large areas of open land.

      The "rail revolution" as I referred to it was already over before passenger services were scheduled across the whole country. I'm thinking of the great engineering feats of building tracks out westward. So many towns were at junction points of the railway in the midwest to begin with. Now, of course, a lot those towns are ghost towns, disappeared or barely habited. The major turnpikes on interstates and so on is where the population centers all moved to, and of course the coasts...

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    95. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by CComMack · · Score: 1

      Someone elsewhere was suggesting a Vegas to San Diego route. Well, the problem is, you'd have about 10 people get on or off at each stop in between, and then the train would totally empty out at the end.

      Right, because there's just desert and wasteland between Las Vegas and San Diego, nowhere anyone might want to go or live in, like, say, Los Angeles, the second largest city in the entire country. Nope, nothing like that there at all.

    96. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by mjpaci · · Score: 1

      Actually, part of the line between Boston and NYC is owned by Metro-North and when there is congestion on the line, Metro-North has priority. I sat on an Acela outside of Stamford, CT for 2 hours and watched Metro-North trains pass me by.

    97. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Politburo · · Score: 1

      This is true, however dynamic braking is not 100% efficient, and there will still be some energy loss from stopping and restarting the train.

    98. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Galvatron · · Score: 1

      Okay, well now we run into the detour problems I was talking about before. And believe you me, such a route would by no means be speedy. There's a San Francisco to Truckee route which takes about 3.5 hours to drive, or about 6 hours to take the train. Why? Well, first off because of all the stops, but more importantly, once you get into the mountains the tracks start getting really curvy, and the train has to slow down substantially (I've never gone LA to Vegas myself, I'm from SF, but it is my understanding that the Sierra-Nevadas extend that far south). People just aren't going to want to lose a day at either end of their vacation for transportation.

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    99. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      The revolution of railway was not carrying people around and back again; rather, the construction of track itself, with the teams that did the work setting up towns at regular intervals along the tracks as they sought to give up laying track and settling down in large areas of open land.
      Except that's not how it happened. The towns were set up by the railroads themselves as service points for the rolling stock (water and fuel), and places for relief crews to live. Other towns were setup by the railroads themselves as future sources and destinations of freight. Frequently the railroads would send recruiters and ship to Europe to obtain colonists, which is how you end up with towns all across the midwest that are almost wholly German or Scandanavian. (If you look at many midwestern cities on the rails, you'll find the layout of the original city almost identical, right down to the location of the town hall and the names of the streets. The railroads had premade town plats that only required filling in the latitude and longitude, and the cities name.)
      The "rail revolution" as I referred to it was already over before passenger services were scheduled across the whole country. I'm thinking of the great engineering feats of building tracks out westward. So many towns were at junction points of the railway in the midwest to begin with.
      As I said above, many of those towns are not accidents. It wasn't a revolution, but an act of deliberate creation.
    100. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by fruey · · Score: 1
      You're more precise than I was, you sound like you know your US history better than me (I'm not an American, but I've read a few US history books, it's a fascinating country to study).

      One point I'd take you up on though, is that "deliberate creation" is what revolution is all about. Expansion west, creation of towns, for me that's still a revolution. Maybe those towns were purpose built as rail stops, just like coaching stops were key towns in England; the difference, as you rightly point out, is that they were deliberately created and planned similarly.

      Interesting discussion. Thanks.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    101. Re:Too bad the US doesn't invest in more trains by Zeio · · Score: 1


      The US did invest heavily in trains. It was nixed. Probably because of mob mentality. More about that later.

      In the 1970's, Secretary of Transportation John Volpe demanded and encouraged and funded LIMRV, Linear Induction Motor Research Vehicle and TLRV. Tracked Levitated Research Vehicle amongst others. Companies including Ford, Garret and Grumman were asked to come up with designs.

      Grumman built and tested TLRV, and was tested at 300mph (480kmh) - 38 years before this "new" Japanese speed record.

      Garret built a test vehicle had a speed of 256mph (410kmh) in 1965. That is just 12mph shy of a brand new system in China now being readied for use in the Shanghai metro area, but it was done, again, 38 years earlier.

      With the insane resistance to nuclear power (check out France meeting its power needs beautifully and cleanly for a case study as to why to use it), electrical train designs fell by the wayside. The resistance to nuclear power gave birth to the Oil Mafias of today (and the subsequent cartels, OPEC, and undesirable cash flow to undesirable regions), and these trains fell by the wayside.

      If you add up all the miles of railroad in the USA, 194,731km/121,000miles, which is huge compared to other companies by raw number or by per-capita (Russia has 87,157km/54,168mi ; China 71,600km/44,499mi ; India 63,518km/39,477mi ; Japan 23,168km/14,400mi ; Germany 45,514km/28287mi ; Sweden 11,481km/7135mi ; UK 16,893/10500mi). Apparently the US does have railway know-how.

      I think it is safe to say when large, uneducated public outcry affects the policies of a government, particularly when it is about the root of all economies, energy; you give birth to more evil demons. By creating this negative stigma about the word nuclear (an MRI in a hospital is really an NMR, Nuclear Magnetic Resonance imaging, but people hate "nuclear.") and all things nuclear, you bought yourself an oil mafia, fossil fuel trains, fossil fuel cars, fossil fuel being used to create energy that melts ore into metal for every car, from SUV to Train to Plane to Automobile (about 70% of ALL power consumed in the US is by industry, about maybe 30% is people and their cars.)

      Now solving the new crisis will require pragmatism, like wind and nuclear power. But windmills were just recently protested in the Nantucket Sound and despite having personally lived next to a nuclear power plant (there were no cases of thyroid cancer, but several cases of GI tract cancers caused by industrial solvents poured into the water supply) people don't want this new technology, because every time we rolled it out, people bitch.

      Think - the SR-71A flew in late 1965 for the first time. No plane to date (except maybe the Aurora) has topped jet engine in top speed. We've taken that know how and for 30 years did other things with it. All was not lost =).

      --
      Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
  5. Nowhere close to max speed by raahul_da_man · · Score: 5, Informative

    The maximum speed for a maglev train is considered to be around 580 kph due to limits in electrical facilities for the train, the engineers said.

    We haven't seen nothing yet. It seems the more juice, the higher the speed. I for one hope to see mass production of Maglev trains. They will be vastly superior to planes at less cost.

    I can't help thinking that maglev train development will help achieve cheap spaceflight as well. Imagine a spaceplane taking off from a maglev hitting 1000+ kph.

    1. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by martingunnarsson · · Score: 1

      Regular airplanes can already go faster than that, I don't see the big advantage of launching them off a train.

      --
      Martin
    2. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Spad · · Score: 1

      The fastest passenger planes only just do 1100kph (Ignoring Concorde, which is no longer in service).

      Besides, this is about launching spacecraft using a maglev or railgun system. The ability to launch a spacecraft at above Mach 1 with no fuel cost would be immensly useful.

    3. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by zaroastra · · Score: 1

      I can't help thinking that maglev train development will help achieve cheap spaceflight as well. Imagine a spaceplane taking off from a maglev hitting 1000+ kph.
      Well, at last someone that thinks like me!
      Here it is:
      Greatest limitation in maglevs comes from friction with air. If you could operate them in vacuum (doesnt need to be perfect to achieve great power and friction savings), you could easily accelerate to mach speeds.
      2 connected cities could build a tunnel, with vacuum equipment to drain the air out. Regular transportation services would then work on the track. (boarding would take place through ramps atached to the trains, so people would never be exposed to vacuum of course).
      Other advantage of vacuum maglevs, is that if you use linear motors to achieve the acceleration (which i think japan doesnt use due to some patent problem, but check it out yourself), you could then use those motors do deacelerate and get your power back. (not 100% but over 90% for shure)
      Then, when you needed to launch a space plane (space train is the name i give them), you could have it set in one extreme of the track, accelerate like crazy (easilly achieving mach5 in 50 kms) and opening one extremety of the tunel (pointing up of course), just launch it more than 5000kms per hour from the ground.

      The greatest energy spent in any space shuttle launch is to get it from the stopped position to an acceleration able to overcome the strength of gravity (over 50% of the total fuel is spent in that fase) so great savings in both fuel spent would be achieved and the size and mass of things we could send to outer space would be much bigger.

      I know there are certainly some problems with this design (the part of opening one extremity while the tunel is in vacuum seems to be the one needing more thinking), but the whole thing seems to me much more reasonable than space elevators and such. (with the nice side effect than when you wouldnt be launching space trains you would have a comercial maglev connection between to cities)

      When i explain my crazy idea of vacuum maglev accelerated launch of space trains, no one undertands me! :( I wonder why ;)

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    4. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by in7ane · · Score: 1

      Sonic booms at ground level will be very hard to sell to the population in urban areas, also how will the track/etc handle the shock?

    5. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by saldek · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't they be a lot easier to sabotage?

      With a plane you only have a good chance of bringing it down when it's either taking off or landing, and airports are generally very well secured.

      If you want to blow up a train you could rig the track with explosives somewhere in the middle of nowhere. In a train going over 500 km/hour, even minor damage would have lethal consequences.

    6. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Actually I saw in a job board the other day that Deutsche Bahn was looking for a physicist to examine sonic booms.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    7. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Yoncarzy · · Score: 1

      I've been obsessed with this idea ever since I saw a television show (maybe "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel, but I don't remember for sure) that said maglev trains could go faster than rockets. I'm not a physicist so I was having trouble figuring out if the idea was realistic. I figured that the whole ramp could be built underground to help maintain the vacuum (that would help deal with the supersonic boom problem mentioned by another poster). I also imagined that the tracks could head up a mountain, more for support for the tracks than to get extra height. The maglev track doesn't even need to provide all the lift. There could be rockets that engage once the train leaves the tunnel, to give it the last bit of thrust it needs. It seems to me that technologies such as this could finally help us achieve the dream of reusable launch vehicles. NASA sucks for putting all their money into a space station that serves no purpose than to conduct experiments that most scientists think are either a waste of time, or better done by robots. They should be working on foreword thinking technologies like this!

      Yoncarzy
      http://www.johncrary.com
      "As you ramble on through life, brother, whatever be your goal -- keep your eye upon the doughnut and not upon the hole."

    8. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by psergiu · · Score: 1

      accelerate like crazy (easilly achieving mach5 in 50 kms) and opening one extremety of the tunel (pointing up of course), just launch it more than 5000kms per hour from the ground.

      At that speed - it will be like launghing the rocket into a solid wall. The impact with the in-rushing air (remember - the tunnel is vaccumed) will be too great.

      The second thing is that it will be extremely costly to build such a air-proof structure.

      --
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    9. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by martingunnarsson · · Score: 1

      I didn't say travelling by plane was better than by train. I said that an airplane can go faster than 1000 kph. My point is that it would seem better to launch a "spaceplane" from another plane than from a train.

      --
      Martin
    10. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by HomerJayS · · Score: 1
      If you could operate them in vacuum (doesnt need to be perfect to achieve great power and friction savings), you could easily accelerate to mach speeds

      Of course it is easy to reach mach speeds in a vacuum. The speed of sound in a vacuum in 0.

    11. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder how many good inventions have been ignored because of this rationalization. If we change what we innovate, then the terroists have won.

      Terroism should not be a variable in technology advancements. Only the implementation.

      And what dream world are you living in where the airport are secure. The other day I was on a highway and a plane passed less than a quarter of a mile above me. All I needed was a simple rocket. Airports are near unsecure areas. If someone wants to do something bad... they can.

    12. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by zaroastra · · Score: 1

      good point, i didnt even think about it before... ;)

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    13. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by zaroastra · · Score: 1

      you did read the part
      I know there are certainly some problems with this design (the part of opening one extremity while the tunel is in vacuum seems to be the one needing more thinking) didn't you?
      It would be somewhat similar to the effect a shuttle has when it reenters the atmosphere. If rentering the atmosphere is possible, with enough though that could be solved as well.

      The second thing is that it will be extremely costly to build such a air-proof structure
      Well, just take a look at the lhc tunnels: a 27 kilometer long, 100 meters deep, with cryogenic controled temperature, thousands tons of magnets, if something like that can be built why not my idea?
      remember if the thing worked (which i think it could, but not sure of course) it would be usable as a public transportation device AND space launch device. Having at least big advantages in the former task over the current methods.

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    14. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by zaroastra · · Score: 1

      well, we hit the same target, see
      my comment

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    15. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Viceice · · Score: 1

      I have the same idea you had about the maglev trains in a vacuum tube, but never considered it for space launch..

      Thinking about it though (and it is just a thought, I'm no engineer) maybe you could do soemthing a little diffrent when opening one end of the tube to launch the spaceplane.

      Imagine first you compress a gas tahts lighter then air until it's liquid and there is enough volume of gas when expanded to fill the entire tube at >1 atm. You place the outlet to this compressed gas tank at the starting end of the tube of the space plane.

      Now, when you launch the plane, you time the relese of the compressed gas in such a manner that it would completely fill the tube the moment the plane is due to exit the tube.

      What I think should happen is:

      1) You get to accelerate to very high speed in the vacume tube.
      2) By controlling the decompression of the compressed gas, you will be able to totally fill the tube after the plane has reached critical speed and it's nose is right about to hit the exit hatch. (remember to open it)
      3) Because the air rushing to fill the vacume is travalling in the same direction as the plane, the "pressure shock" would aid in acceleration instead of deceleration/destruction.
      4)Upon exit of the tube, because the pressure of the tube is greater then the atmosphere, the plane would exit the tube with an upward decaying bubble of high pressure that whould ensure a smooth exit from the tube.

      Basicly, this is a railgun cum canon, where the acceleration (bulk of work) is provided by the maglev and the smooth exit is provided by the pressure diffrence (Mighty loud Bang).

      Yes it's a crazy idea.

      --
      Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
    16. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by zaroastra · · Score: 1

      IAE (I'm an engineer, only the wrong kind to talk about this)

      You should of course contain the area to be flooded by closing an hatch afterwards the passing of the space train. so you would loose vacuum in only an small segment, much more practical and economic.

      Its an idea, I've thought of something similar, one thing I know though, if you release a gas from liquid state (under pressure) to gaseous state, you get cold, awesome amounts of cold... (thats how refrigerators work) that could be a serious problem :?

      OTOH, just opening the hatch would create a cyclonic rush of air in the wrong direction (what troubles me most), and great pressure differences (but as I said earlier, shuttles entering atmosfere also face that problem)

      Hell, I know not everything is solved, a lot of science and engineering is needed!

      A crazy idea? Perhaps, but to me, when compared with the space elevator, it seems much more reasonable and achievable in the short term.

      We need crazy ideas to get this world moving ;)

      --
      I'm trying to get modded "Interesting Flamebait Informative and Insightful Redundant Troll" *-* Please Help *-*
    17. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Politburo · · Score: 1

      With a plane you only have a good chance of bringing it down when it's either taking off or landing, and airports are generally very well secured.

      In terms of walking up and touching the plane, yeah. In terms of sitting outside the airport limits with an RPG launcher, no.

    18. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Viceice · · Score: 1

      Is problem you are talking about the same as where the pressure behind a moving object is lower then what is in front of it?

      Maybe we can solve 2 problems at once. Let give our launcher the aceleration speed of X a maximum speed of Y. At speed of Y, pressure acting on train under atmosphere is Z.

      What if we were to heat (somehow) the liquid so that it expands at a rate to fill the tube so that it's front accelerates at X and reaches the speed of Y as well as the final pressure of Z the very moment before the train leaves the tube?

      --
      Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
    19. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sonic booms at ground level is most of the time caused by Guile.

    20. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Yeah, okay, say you can launch the train into outer space, but what then? how do you get it back? parachute it down? or make it extend artificial wings? It would be very hard to aim so that the train shoots out of one tunnel, goes into outer space, comes back and lands right on the track in another city, by the millimeter. Maybe you could parachute it down in an area of a football field nearby a city, then have some trucks gather the railcars filled with people and drag them into a hangar where a crane puts them back on a railtrack, with precision. Then they are loaded with people again, then enter a decompression chamber, then slingshot them back out into outer space and from there into the next city. Yeehaww! Hold on to your hats! (PS. City distances should be intercontinental for this to make sense at all.)

    21. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by tipiyano · · Score: 1

      One of the biggest problems with maglev trains is the vertical stability. Since the train is floating, it has a tendency to oscillate vertically aroud it's central position. The solution that the Japanese,Chinese and even the Germans deploy uses passive figure-8 coils that tries to keep the the magnets from oscillating using the induced em forces. Although, this is a good solution, being passive the system does have a finite response time which restricts the maximum horizontal speed. The way the Japanese (and others) solve the problem right now is by modifying train design, increasing magnet strengths, etc. Though, these give them extra juice to boost the speed it does not solve the problem.

      The actual solution to the problem that some others beleive is to actively control the figure-8 coils to acheive the desired stability externally. So instead of the train magnets and the track coils trying to balance each other, you can externally control the stabilization which is restricted only by the accuracy of control equipments (currently, not a problem). Therefore, by using this method, you could you could just beef up your equipment and baam you are ready to double the train speed.

      NASA and navy are currently quite interested in this technology to use to launch the shuttle in the future. Ofcourse, to do that you will need speeds more than 1000 mph. Our school has substanstial funding and even a model track (~12m long) to develop the idea. It is incredible to see the model train (.3m long ) zip along the track

    22. Re:Nowhere close to max speed by Viceice · · Score: 1

      I did say it was a crazy idea. But whats to stop someone from making the train more like a shuttle and re-enter the normal way?

      --
      Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
  6. Vegas to LA by The-Pheon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Living in Las Vegas, I would love a high speed rail to LA. It is all desert, plenty of room for a right of way! I'm sure the casino's would love getting people from LA to the city in an hour as well!

    Just remember in ten years, it was my idea :)

    1. Re:Vegas to LA by Indy1 · · Score: 1

      good luck EVER getting the vote buyers er politicians to do anything with that kind of financial outlay. Between the environmentalists (gotta protect that desert turtle ya know?), miltary at ntc, offroaders, nimby-ists, etc, you'd never see something like this done in the US any more. Not that we couldnt use it badly, I-15 is a mess any more between LA and vegas.

      --
      Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
    2. Re:Vegas to LA by Soporific · · Score: 1

      Someone made this proposal quite a while ago. I don't know if it was an "official" thing, but I remember when I had the hots for Vegas every weekend me and a buddy used to talk about it all the time.

      ~S

    3. Re:Vegas to LA by NeMon'ess · · Score: 1

      How many people would ride it? The proposed link from Sacramento through the San Francisco Bay Area to Los Angeles and San Diego might actually get enough use to make it worthwhile. Commuters might use it, as well as travelers. I-5 is slow going on holidays, and widening the Grapevine would be a royal pain.

    4. Re:Vegas to LA by sakusha · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well that was Bugsy Siegel's idea too, and he never got it off the ground either.

    5. Re:Vegas to LA by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, the environmentalists SHOULD support this idea.

      Between getting a lot of road traffic off Interstate 15 between Los Angeles and Las Vegas and also reducing the need for air travel between Los Angeles and Las Vegas (imagine 375-450 passengers per train leaving four times per hour from Los Angeles to Las Vegas), that means a lot less air pollution from automobiles, buses and jet airliners.

    6. Re:Vegas to LA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      heh, not quite your idea. I'm not allowed to give details except that its progressing quite well and will most likely go from San Diego to Las Vegas with possible stops in between.

      http://www.ga.com/atg/ems/transrap.html

    7. Re:Vegas to LA by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      A high speed rail link from San Francisco to LA has been in the pipeline for decades, but politics keeps getting in the way.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    8. Re:Vegas to LA by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Um..... we have these impressive flying high-speed trains called jets that I'm fairly sure you could take right now, if you wanted to. :)

    9. Re:Vegas to LA by plastik55 · · Score: 1

      A high speed rail link from San Francisco to LA has been in the pipeline for decades, but politics keeps getting in the way.

      Not to mention some huge mountains.

      Really, grading I-5 over the Tejon Pass took more earth moving than the entire Aswan High Dam in Egypt. The results can be seen with the naked eye from space.

      Trains can't climb nearly as steeply as cars; where are you going to route a train between SF and LA?

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    10. Re:Vegas to LA by jafuser · · Score: 1

      This would make a lot more sense than the one they are legally supposed to implement in Florida (though probably wont for a long time) to get the tourists around.

      The population density is higher in LA/LV and it would be a much more linear and direct route than the "hop between all the big cities" route they want to put in FL.

      --
      Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
    11. Re:Vegas to LA by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      Tunnels. Trains have been running through the Pennines between Manchester and Sheffield since the industrial revolution.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    12. Re:Vegas to LA by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Hey don't forget us northern californians in Humboldt, Trinity and Shasta counties! If they would just legalize marijuana up here we could justify a rail system for transport. Currently I have to drive 2-3 hours to get to a walmart, :(.

    13. Re:Vegas to LA by Indy1 · · Score: 1

      your absolutely right, they should support it. Often the enviromentalists will boycott an idea without looking at the overall picture. Look at them boycott nuclear power. So what do we use instead? COAL! Probably the worst source of power from an enviromental point of view.

      --
      Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
    14. Re:Vegas to LA by plastik55 · · Score: 1

      Tunnels. Trains have been running through the Pennines between Manchester and Sheffield since the industrial revolution.

      HAHAHAHAHA... man you kill me. I knew someone was going to suggest a tunnel.

      Consider this this map, especially the section of I-5 that runs the most accessible route over the mountains, and uncoincidentally happens to be right on top of the map's thickest red line...

      "Tunnels." Comedy gold!

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    15. Re:Vegas to LA by Ntense007 · · Score: 1

      I was born and raised in Vegas and they have been talking about a high speed train since I was a kid......and nothing has ever or likely will wever happen on that!! No one wants to spend the money...

    16. Re:Vegas to LA by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      Whetever. Look, someone suggested that it's physically impossible to build a railway from SF to LA because of geography. It's not.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
  7. Bye Bye Airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering that commercial airliners don't travel this fast, this could be a really interesting development...

    Personally I think it would be pretty cool to have trains over airplanes as the standard of travel in the US.

    If you consider the Terrorist Threat factor. Free Roaming Plains are inherently more dangerous than trains stuck on rails.

    1. Re:Bye Bye Airplanes by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1
      Considering that commercial airliners don't travel this fast, this could be a really interesting development...

      Umm, a Boeing 747 has a maximum cruise of 490kts which is around 580mph (although in service you wouldn't necessarily go flat out). The rather smaller Airbus A320 is a little slower (but only by 5kts or so).


      Incidentally, fuck the "Terrorist Threat Factor". If you fund terrorists, you get terrorism. America is very lucky that it has only had a couple of terrorist attacks.

    2. Re:Bye Bye Airplanes by tortap-0 · · Score: 1

      That was 580 kilometers per hour. Not miles per hour.

    3. Re:Bye Bye Airplanes by n3xup · · Score: 1

      How are free roaming planes MORE dangerous?

      A terrorist could just sit off the tracks and launch an RPG and really destroy the train.

      It takes a lot more to knock a plane out of the sky or hijack it. I think you have your comment reversed.

    4. Re:Bye Bye Airplanes by wa1ter · · Score: 1

      Not really, during take off and landing you can knock the plane out with an RPG as well. Granted, you can only do it from a limited distance but it doesn't take 'more'.

      --
      Sig? What's this sig thing I hear people talking about?
    5. Re:Bye Bye Airplanes by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1
      It takes a lot more to knock a plane out of the sky or hijack it.
      Yeah, those box cutters are damn expensive.
      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
  8. A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    kph parses as kilo*pico*hour. It makes no sense.

    You probably mean km/h.

    No need to bastardize a fine international standard.

    1. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by perly-king-69 · · Score: 1

      No need to bastardize a fine international standard. Remember, this is /. - it seems anything is fair game for being bastardised. ;-)

      --

      --
      This sig is inoffensive.

    2. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      kph parses as kilo*pico*hour. It makes no sense.

      "Japanese Train Sets A Speed Record Of 581 kph (0.0000036 seconds)"

      It makes sense, it just doesn't mention how far the train travelled in that time.

    3. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by troon · · Score: 1

      So 1kph (10^3 * 10^-12 hours) is 1nh (10^-9 hours) which is 3.6ms. 581 of these is a shade under 2.1s. Which doesn't make much sense for a train.

      --
      Ydco co ,df C erb-y go. a Ekrpat t.fxrapev
    4. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      or
      km h^-1

    5. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That must be why they use kph EVERYWHERE!

      Perhaps this would be more clear if you realized:
      1. multiple prefixes are rarely if ever used
      2. hours aren't really metric, so no one would use picohours

    6. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That must be why they use kph EVERYWHERE!

      If they are using kph everywhere, I guess it's because they are in the US. This is incorrect use of the SI. The obvious reason is that "per" isn't written "per" in all languages of Earth, and it takes Americans to not care about it, or not notice about it, and stick to a "mph" lookalike. It's just as if I wrote "km/h" as "kmah".

    7. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the preferred SI unit would be m/s.

    8. Re:A friendly SI usage reminder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which bit of kph did you not understand? It may not be formally correct, but it is nonetheless intelligible. Moreover, it's in common usage in a number of countries (Australia, NZ, India off the top of my head).

  9. Impressive by pubjames · · Score: 4, Informative


    If you are going to visit Japan, there is a special travel pass you can get, which is only for tourists. It allows you to travel on any train in Japan over one, two, three or four weeks. It is well worth it.

    Having spent three weeks travelling around Japan on their trains, I can confirm that they are very impressive. Many of the trains have the kind of luxury fittings that you'd expect to find flying first class. But they are expensive.

    Although I believe that Europe is currently developing a Europe-wide high-speed rail system, Japan has had one for years. Why is it only Japan that has such an advanced train system? Travelling by train is great - much more environmentally sound and safer than travelling by car, and of course you get to use the travelling time productively, especially when the trains have plugs for laptops and network connections/WiFi.

    1. Re:Impressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was there (1995) the railpass was not for the really fast Shinkansens. Just regional trains and the 'normal' high speed trains (200 kph).

    2. Re:Impressive by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I wonder if moving that fast causes problems with train-land wi-fi and cell networks due to the doppler effect? Imagine you're screaming toward a cell tower at 167 m/s (600 km/h) - that's a doppler shift of 500Hz at 900MHz, which I imagine could cause some problems.

    3. Re:Impressive by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Japan's geography does lend itself to a high speed rail network. In fact, it's hardly a network. The Shankansen tracks simply follow the east coast with one fork branching off. Most of the major cities are built along a fairly direct line.

      The US is a huge continent with important cities all over the place. You need a route from all of these to all of these, and rails are expensive to lay and maintain.

      Europe should be better. France does have its TGV network, and various other countries might have their own fast rail services, but there's no real European transport policy. Each country just has their own policy. Eusrostar services connect the countries up to an extent, but that really only connects France to neighbouring countries. I agree that it's a shame rail travel isn't more viable. I enjoy travelling by train. The seats are larger than on planes, you can get up and walk around easily, and unlike driving, you can sit and read.

    4. Re:Impressive by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 3, Informative

      The French TGV system is pretty good too, but it is expensive. They have the speed record for real trains, as opposed to maglev vaporware.

      --
      When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
    5. Re:Impressive by divide+overflow · · Score: 4, Informative

      >If you are going to visit Japan, there is a special travel pass you can get, which is only for tourists. It allows you to travel on any train in Japan over one, two, three or four weeks. It is well worth it.

      You are talking about the Japan Rail Pass. It doesn't allow you to travel on ANY train in Japan, ONLY the trains on the JR Group lines including all Shinkansen (bullet trains) EXCEPT for the ultrafast JR "Nozomi" bullet trains. None of the many private (Non-JR) train lines accept the Japan Rail Pass. Note however that the Japan Rail bus and ferry lines DO accept the Japan Rail Pass. See this page for information on where the Japan Rail Pass is valid.

      If you are eligible to get a Japan Rail Pass and are planning on doing much rail travel in Japan then you will almost certainly want to get one.

    6. Re:Impressive by ChiPHeaD23 · · Score: 1

      Good thing you don't have to shout at cell towers to have your voice relayed by them, or that'd be a problem.

      You should be thinking speed of light here, not sound.

    7. Re:Impressive by pubjames · · Score: 1

      but there's no real European transport policy.

      I'm sure the EU Transport Commissioner would disagree! You're posting suggests your knowledge about the EU is five or ten years out of date.

      There is a Europe wide transport policy, and it is having a dramatic effect. Over the last five years or so, there has been a huge rise in the number of internal flights taken within the EU, for instance, due to new airlines like Ryanair, Easyjet etc. These new airlines exist because of changes to rules about airline operators and airports within the EU.

      And there is a policy to create an EU-wide high speed rail system. It's just that with so many countries uniteing all the systems takes time. But the whole of the EU rail network will be deregulated by 2008, and there are the high-speed lines are currently being linked up. Within five years you should be able to travel from Lisbon to Brussels by high-speed rail, and I expect within a fifteen years you'll be able to go Lisbon - St Petersburgh.

    8. Re:Impressive by BJH · · Score: 1

      I believe you can ride the Nozomi trains on a Japan Rail Pass if you're willing to pay the extra express fee (i.e. the basic fare is free, but you pay the difference).

      Although it's been thirteen years since I last used one, so I couldn't say for sure ;)

    9. Re:Impressive by divide+overflow · · Score: 1
      > I believe you can ride the Nozomi trains on a Japan Rail Pass if you're willing to pay the extra express fee (i.e. the basic fare is free, but you pay the difference).

      From the Japan Rail Pass link I posted in my first post:

      Important notes: The JAPAN RAIL PASS is not valid for any seats, reserved or nonreserved, on "NOZOMI" trains on the Tokaido and San'yo Shinkansen lines. If you use a "NOZOMI," you must pay the basic fare and the limited express charge, and if in a Green Car, the Green Car charge.
    10. Re:Impressive by TonkaTown · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yep, a TGV recorded 515.3 km/h (320.3 mph) back in May 1990, not bad at all.

      Details on TGVWeb.

    11. Re:Impressive by gnu-generation-one · · Score: 1

      "I wonder if moving that fast causes problems with train-land wi-fi and cell networks due to the doppler effect? Imagine you're screaming toward a cell tower at 167 m/s (600 km/h) - that's a doppler shift of 500Hz at 900MHz, which I imagine could cause some problems."

      Put the towers further from the tracks?

    12. Re:Impressive by nneb · · Score: 1
      Although I believe that Europe is currently developing a Europe-wide high-speed rail system, Japan has had one for years.
      Must be either underground or cloaked. It's no surprise the Japanese economy is in such trouble when they're wasting money building secret underground high-speed rail systems to make life easy for a few Japanese tourists.
    13. Re:Impressive by confused+one · · Score: 1

      You can get similar passes from Amtrack in the U.S. Travel to anywhere at any time on any (amtrack) train for a month. Possibly a good way to spend a vacation; hopping around the country.

    14. Re:Impressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Eusrostar services connect the countries up to an extent, but that really only connects France to neighbouring countries.
      It is quite true that the French TGV network is the most developed in Europe and most international high-speed train lines in Europe are rooted there, but Germany also has a nice set of lines with their ICE, and there are a lot of extensions all over Europe already built or currently being built:
      • Eurostar does Paris-London and London-Brussels. The UK now has its own brand new high-speed line from the tunnel to near London; it is being extended up to London;
      • Thalys does Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam and Koeln. A high speed line from Brussels to Amsterdam is a work in progress (at least for the part in Belgium)
      • There is a direct TGV relation Paris-Geneva.
      • in Spain, you have the AVE (Madrid-Sevilla) and the Madrid-Barcelona high-speed line is almost complete. Once over, it will be connected through southern France to the French TGV network.
      • in France, the Eastern TGV line is currently being built and will connect to Germany.
      • many other high-speed lines are also being considered, for example one that connects southwestern France to western Spain.
      So in 10-20 years time, western Europe will have a set of high-speed lines connecting main cities, possibly with a few gaps filled by classic train lines.
    15. Re:Impressive by BJH · · Score: 1

      Mmf. Ah well.

    16. Re:Impressive by blancolioni · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by expensive? I'm sure I paid about 60 euros to get a return ticket from Paris to Lyons, which seemed reasonable at the time.

    17. Re:Impressive by really? · · Score: 1

      I believe that is wrong, or old, info. My friend's parents were here a couple months ago and they went from Tokyo to Hirosima by Nozomi. They just had to pay a few thousand yen extra - sorry, I can't remember the details, but _definitely_ less than 10.000 for the two of them.

      --

      "Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
    18. Re:Impressive by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      ... of course, almost every major American city west of the East Coast was built on, that's right, railroads. We built and maintained a continent-spanning rail network quite nicely a century ago; are you saying we can't do the same now? As for the expense, consider how much we, the American taxpayers, spend on maintenance of the road and air transport infrastructure. The reflexive American dismissal of rail really pisses me off when politicians want Amtrak to be self-supporting while pouring untold billions into highways and airports. All three forms of transportation are important, and should roughly equal attention.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    19. Re:Impressive by argStyopa · · Score: 1
      Why is it only Japan that has such an advanced train system?

      I dunno, something about a country roughly the size of a Habitrail with the population packed tighter than sardines?

      Maybe that's just coincidence, though.

      Ontopic, though, I *don't* understand why trains are so bloody expensive. OK, I get it that they are trying to slightly underprice airlines in many markets (Amtrak doesn't even bother), but the simple reason trains won't ever catch on is the EXPENSE.

      I can fly Mpls to Chicago in 1 hour for about 1/3 the price of Amtrak, which takes 8 hours. WTH would I want to use Amtrak? It's simple as that.
      --
      -Styopa
    20. Re:Impressive by apetime · · Score: 1
      If you are going to visit Japan, there is a special travel pass you can get, which is only for tourists. It allows you to travel on any train in Japan over one, two, three or four weeks. It is well worth it.

      Just as a service to anyone who decides to go to Japan after reading this. It does NOT let you get on every train, only JR ones. Which is great, because they run all the major cross-country routes, but a lot of the urban railways are private or municipal and won't accept it. And IIRC they are not sold in Japan so make sure to pick it up before you leave.

    21. Re:Impressive by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Why is it only Japan that has such an advanced train system?
      Because Japan is one nation (unlike Europe), it's fairly small (unlike the US), it's urban areas are much higher density than the rest of the world, it's urban areas are a smaller fraction of it's total surface area than anywhere else, and lastly 90% of it's population is within 20 miles of the coast. This last makes it much easier to route the trains, as it's a linear array, vice the more complex 'web' that most other countries would require.
    22. Re:Impressive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - and don't forget dime dilation due to relative effects, need to reset your watch at the station.

    23. Re:Impressive by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      That is true. In fact, for its time, the US railroad network was a marvelous piece of engineering.

      The problem is that planes become cheaper once distances become sufficiently large. I heard somewhere that railway lines cost several million dollars per mile.

      Actually, I've done some research into this while writing. Not a lot of information online, but this one is informative.. Amtrak insist that they carry 10 times as many people per dollar spent on track. And thinking about it, a high spead rail network on each coast will cover a large proportion of the population. Once again, it looks like we need to blame the US government for not considering the environment enough in transport policy, and the people for choosing these politicians.

    24. Re:Impressive by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 1

      That's not bad. Presumably, like all trains, it depends on the popularity of the route and the time of day.

      --
      When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  10. Re:too fast by lovebyte · · Score: 1

    How long before some terrorist group finds a way to sabotage a portion of the easily accesible track to wipe out a large group of passengers that close to the ground?

    I don't know how long, but if you have any information you should contact the police quickly.

    --

    I'll do it for cheesy poofs.

  11. Re:too fast by rebeka+thomas · · Score: 1

    Uhhhh "how long?" indeed. A normal train carrying just as much traffic and passengers can be derailed by as much as a couple of dimes on the rails, what makes you think there's going to need to be any "finding a way"?

    --
    RST
  12. Converted to MPH by Macka · · Score: 1


    For those who don't want to look it up, 581 kph converts to 361 mph.

    I've been on the Channel Tunnel Eurostar train from London to Paris and that tops out at 186mph. That was quite amazing. To think that this thing can hit twice that speed is mind boggling.

    Macka

    1. Re:Converted to MPH by EmagGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's expending 8 times as much energy to go twice as fast... which is even more amazing..

    2. Re:Converted to MPH by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I've been on the Virgin Voyager train from Southampton to Manchester that tops out at about 10mph. To think that this thin can hit 36 times that speed is mind boggling.

  13. What they did not mention... by Black+Art · · Score: 1

    is if it stopped in Osaka or just kept on going from the inertia.

    --
    "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
  14. Oh puleez by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How generic and vacid a statement can you make? More trains, where prey tell would you place your precious trains? Most cities that are dense enough to benefit already have rail systems (e.g. subways). The majority of light rail systems are failures since they suffer from the same problem that any mass transit system does in those cities that don't support the densities required to truely make them useful. Now if you're talking inter city trains, then you run into the issue to having to have feeder bus lines which limits their usefulness.

    Now there are a few cities that probably could benefit from improved rail services. But these cities truely are few. I love trains, when I lived in SJ I took their new light rail whenever possible and rode BART and the CalTrain whenever possible. But the reality is that it requires a very specific environment to be successful.

  15. Semi off topic. by taliver · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But I thought I'd bring it up. Inevitably there are going to be long threads of why the US doesn't have this leading to conspiracies involving auto manufactures, oil companies, and congessmen payed for by Amtrak.

    Before all that gets carried away, a minor side note. There was an article online, and if I find the citation I'll respond to my own post with it, that spoke of why using innerstates as guides for high speed railways was impossible. Basically innerstates have very frequent curves in them, and at the speeds these trains are going, you'd either be making everybody motion sick, or worse, throwing them back and forth inside the train. You need very straight shots for long distances for these to work right.

    And, I might add, there's _very_ little incentive to have ultra-high speed trains from a legal perspective. The first time one of these has an accident every blood sucking vermin of a low-life profession would come sniffing around through the remains looking for anyone remotely related to anyone with at least a hangnail to sue the pants off whatever company was running this system.

    --

    I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!

    1. Re:Semi off topic. by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Actually, the only things keeping the US from getting such high speed rail are regulations and liability. Acela was crippled by too many far-overreaching safety regulations and fear of litigation, oh, and ridiculous union labor costs.

      Also, the faster the train goes, the more accurate the spacing between the rails has to be. At 600kph (holy shit that's fast!), I imagine the rails would have to have less than a few millimeters of error - something that is very difficult to achieve, and I for one wouldn't trust union labor to be able to achieve that.

      Now, speaking of straight shots, these high-speed rails would be great in the plains states... Imagine making it from St. Louis to Phoenix in a couple of hours, on the ground!

    2. Re:Semi off topic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rails??? It's a Maglev train, it floats above "rails" which are just nitrogen-cooled magnets.

    3. Re:Semi off topic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are you saying that there isn't any car accidents in US? High-speed train with 200 passengers is much more safe than a 200 cars on a highway.

    4. Re:Semi off topic. by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Now, speaking of straight shots, these high-speed rails would be great in the plains states... Imagine making it from St. Louis to Phoenix in a couple of hours, on the ground!

      PLains states? You realize that St. Louis to Arizona would have to cut through either New Mexico or Colorado, and those are mountain states, right?

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    5. Re:Semi off topic. by taliver · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that there isn't any car accidents in US? High-speed train with 200 passengers is much more safe than a 200 cars on a highway.

      No, I am most certainly not saying this. I do believe that when these uber-high speed trains are brought online, however, they will be more unsafe per passenger mile than planes, and this will make them nice juicy targets for litigation.

      --

      I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!

    6. Re:Semi off topic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YAY!

      Go America, the land of freedom (to sue your neighbour)!

    7. Re:Semi off topic. by tekunokurato · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but maglev trains can handle mountain inclines *significantly* steeper than the mere 8% grade a normal train can handle. Wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

    8. Re:Semi off topic. by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 0

      That's great. Only thing is, the OP had used the words "straight shot" to describe a trip from ST Louis to Phoenix, because the "plains states" could really use them. I was just pointing out that Phoenix isn't in a plains state, and that it's separated from St Louis by mountains. :)

      Actually, cutting through mountains (ignoring expense for a moment, obviously) is an excellent opportunity to put the train in a vacuum tube and shoot it up a bit faster, provided it doesn't have to stop at any cities in the mountains (like Denver).

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    9. Re:Semi off topic. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You're totally missing something: cars aren't owned by big corporations or governments. If some moron hits you in a car, you can sue him, but you probably won't get a lot (if he lives in a trailer and works at the gas station, he just doesn't have much to give you). But if a train derails and some people get hurt, they'll sue the train company for millions, probably putting it out of business.

      By having individual transportation, our country limits the amount of legal damages that can ever be awarded. If you centralize things, coupled with our ridiculously litigious society, the centralized transportation companies won't be able to stay afloat.

    10. Re:Semi off topic. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      They could just tunnel under the city using a tunnel boring machine, and then use an elevator to get people down to the tunnel.

    11. Re:Semi off topic. by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Um, if the train has to slow down for a stop in the tunnel, what's the point of being in a vacuum tunnel in the first place?

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    12. Re:Semi off topic. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I didn't say anything about it being a vacuum tunnel, but that's not a bad idea.

      The point is that Denver is a huge city, so it's a good place to stop if you want more ridership. Besides, the distance from Denver to the next city on the line (Vegas, Phoenix, SLC, Albuquerque) is still very large, like 10 hours driving time, so one stop in Denver shouldn't be a big deal. Also, from what I've read, maglev trains can accelerate and decelerate very quickly, so from a technical standpoint, stopping in Denver should be easy.

    13. Re:Semi off topic. by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Actually, from my post that was why we were tunneling through the rockies in the first place, with the line going from St Louis to Phoenix (although why there'd be a train going a straight route there is quite beyond me, but that came from a previous poster)

      In any case, I suspect that a mag-lev grid would have to do something similar to the freeways. The Interstate highway system is literally a grid (with a few notable exceptions. It didn't make sense to put any interstates in Montana: nobody lives there but buffalo), and with a mag-lev it'd be the same deal. First you would travel using "normal" methods (car, bus, walk, light rail) from your hick town in Kansas to Kansas City. Then you'd catch the mag-lev down to Austin. Then you'd get drunk off your ass and hear the blues. Then you'd (hopefully!) reverse the trip to get back home (possibly calling a taxi when you get off the mag-lev). What used to be a 3-day trip turns into 4-5 hours roundtrip spent on a really fast and quiet train, with as much time in Austin as you'd want to spend. (ie it could still be a 3-day trip, you'd just spend more time partying)

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    14. Re:Semi off topic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I do believe that when these uber-high speed trains are brought online, however, they will be more unsafe per passenger mile than planes, and this will make them nice juicy targets for litigation.

      This is speculation. For instance the French TGV has still no fatalities (despite half a dozen grade crossing accidents, a couple of high speed derailment, and a terrorist attack, among other things).

    15. Re:Semi off topic. by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Whoever the fuck moderated me "overrated" when the comment had not previously been modded at all can go eat shit and die now, thanks very much. Try the "informative" button next time, buddy.

  16. Hornby watch out by egs22 · · Score: 1

    That's a very fast train set. Er. Maybe I should RTFHeadline again.

  17. Re:too fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "How long before some terrorist group finds a way to sabotage a portion of the easily accesible track to wipe out a large group of passengers that close to the ground?"

    Hmmm bomb going off as train passes.
    Bomb destroying track before train passes.

    Seems about the same problem as ANY rail system. Although the fact that they use maglev tech should in theory lessen the total effect of acceleration as compared to say a conventional train derailment. I would hypothesize that the train would still go forward as it decelerated but the actual downward impact of breaking the magnetic field would be negligable. Any math, physics or engineering majors care to explain why this would or would not be the case?

  18. Japan is linear by reignbow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is obviously very impressive. Maglev trains are very expensive (especially the track), but they reach enormous speeds. It gets even better if you let them run in a depressurised tunnel, allowing them to reach speeds of several thousand kilometers per hour. Of course, that costs lots of extra moolah, but its an upgrade possibility once maglevs have become more commonplace.

    Concerning the question of why other countries don't have trains as cool as Japan - well, several reasons. The US just aren't interested. Appearantly, the American Way means having two cars per family and getting stuck in a traffic jam at least once a week. Besides, there are geographical concerns. America, as well as my home country (Germany) are definitely two-dimensional, rather than a linear strip of settlement like Japan, meaning that one requires a grid of synchronised train lines. Trust me, that's hard.

    Also, for the US there's the problem of population density. Sure, in the cities, public transport has customers. But in the rural regions, there isn't enough demand to make narrow-interval trains profitable. And the broader the intervals (say, twice a day?) the lower the interest. After all, why wait two hours for the next train, when you can jump in your car now?

    --
    Divide et impera!
    1. Re:Japan is linear by Bagels · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, there may be a sort of a "last mile" problem in the US too - once you arrive at your destination, it might take almost as long or longer to make the second half of the journey from train station to final destination (because of car rentals, traffic, etc.).

      --
      --- Bwah?
    2. Re:Japan is linear by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Density isn't as much of a problem as you'd think. Back in the day, there were trolly and train networks all over the country, and people in mid/low-density areas (where it's considered unfathomable today to run public transit) could get nearly anywhere by riding these PROFITABLE ventures. But, when Herbert Hoover and Ford came along, the push switched to "a car in every garage" for economic stimulation, and soon nobody wanted the trollies anymore.

      Rails can't really be profitable any more without subsidies, but roads are FAR more heavily subsidized, and gas prices in the US are held artificially low.

    3. Re:Japan is linear by wind · · Score: 1

      Appearantly, the American Way means having two cars per family and getting stuck in a traffic jam at least once a week.

      I always thought it was one SUV per person (children included), with two-hour traffic jams on 15-lane freeways both to and from work every day. Oh, wait, that's the Californian Way (tm).

      Anyway, I've always suspected that the huge distances involved in travelling in the US have killed a lot of interest in even high-speed trains. I mean, if it takes 6 days to get to point A from point B, even cutting the time in half to 3 days isn't an incentive. People will just take a plane.

      Now, maybe if the Ashcroft Way (tm) continues much longer, people will avoid planes because they'll be tired of being strip searched and x-rayed for every leg of their journey. Then it might be worth the investment in high-speed trains. I don't know.

    4. Re:Japan is linear by squarooticus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Definitely deserving of insightful.

      I take commuter rail to work. Here's the breakdown of my one-way commute to work:

      8:00 leave house
      8:18 arrive at commuter rail station, only 3 miles away (variance is high, so I have to leave early)
      8:24 train leaves station
      8:45 train arrives at terminal
      9:00 finish walk to subway
      9:03 subway comes
      9:05 leave subway
      9:08 finish walk to office

      As you can see, only 23 minutes of the 68 minute commute is actually spent *on* the train. If I drove into work and planned my arrival for 9:08, I'd only have to leave at 8:30, which would give me an extra half hour. Leaving work by car gives an even greater advantage, since it only takes 25 minutes to get from my office to my house when I leave at 6:30.

      The only reason I take commuter rail is that the price of parking is kept artificially high by virtue of the city of Cambridge's quotas on parking spaces: I'd need to pay $235/mo for parking in addition to wear-and-tear on the car and gas, versus the $94/mo I pay for the commuter rail pass (plus the $50/mo or so I already pay in taxes to support the transit system).

      IMO, the convenience of having my car at work would balance out an extra $100; as it stands, I don't think it balances out an extra $200+, so I suck it up and use the commuter rail.

      --
      [ home ]
    5. Re:Japan is linear by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1
      I mean, if it takes 6 days to get to point A from point B, even cutting the time in half to 3 days isn't an incentive.

      You mean from Malibu to Anaheim?

    6. Re:Japan is linear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much of the USA population is concentrated on the coasts, or in other corridors where high speed rail could be quite viable.

    7. Re:Japan is linear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, most of the trollys and in-city trains were killed a bit later than that by GM. They basically either gave the local government such a deal on buses that they couldn't imagine running their trains anymore or they bought the train line and shut it down.

      It happened all over the US. I'm pretty sure that GM still supplies the buses for most of it too.

    8. Re:Japan is linear by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      gas prices in the US are held artificially low.

      Artificially low? Gas prices in the US are driven by the market for the most part, except when oil companies see a chance to profiteer and they all simultaneously jack prices up. If you mean US gas prices are kept low by not taxing the crap out of them, as they do in other countries, then it's actually a case of prices not being kept artificially high. You want to see the actual price of gas? Go look at what they pay in the persian gulf states. In Kuwait they pay $0.77 a gallon. In the US we pay about twice that. This reflects, for the most part, cost of transport.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    9. Re:Japan is linear by molo · · Score: 1

      I think a large portion of the nation's traffic could be served by a couple of high-speed rail lines. Boston-Washington, San Diego-Seattle, and maybe New York-Chicago.

      Too bad Amtrak sucks.

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    10. Re:Japan is linear by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      I had a similar issue. My mass transit (ferryboat) got me into SF with a total trip time of an hour and fifteen minutes. I could theoretically nap for 40 minutes on the boat, but I didn't.

      So I moved somewhere directly next to the light rail station. I sold my car. My commute is now 20 minutes. I get a woody every time I think about how much better this is.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    11. Re:Japan is linear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, out here on the west coast of the US, settlement is linear...
      A higspeed train could easily link Vancouver B.C. to San Diego and make stops in Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Fransisco, and L.A.
      All of these cities are on what amounts to a pretty much straight line. So while I agree that a national highspeed rail network might not make sense in the US as a whole, there are regions where such a system would be incredibly useful.

    12. Re:Japan is linear by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      I don't consider gas taxes to be subsidies, personally. You may, but that is a very fair way to pay for roads. What is unfair is that freight rail companies have to pay taxes on their deisel fuel which is used to pay for roads. This was meant to change as per the energy bill (which included too much pork to pass).

    13. Re:Japan is linear by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Dude, the cost of operating a car is FAR more than just the cost of mining, processing, and shipping the oil. You've got environmental costs, but more to the point you've got the tremendous road cost that is borne by the entire country whether they drive or not. In Europe, they tax the hell out of gas so that it reflects the actual cost of driving a car more closely. That is more of a true price. So yes, you get more service than you deserve out of the cost of filling a tank. Artificially low.

    14. Re:Japan is linear by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I'm saying- that gas taxes should be heavier to reflect the actual cost of driving. They are currently under-taxed, making gas use seem cheaper than it is.

      Also, good point about the freight rail; that's really terrible.

    15. Re:Japan is linear by rattler14 · · Score: 1


      Of course, there may be a sort of a "last mile" problem in the US too - once you arrive at your destination, it might take almost as long or longer to make the second half of the journey from train station to final destination (because of car rentals, traffic, etc.).

      I don't think people realize how true this actually is. Basically, when flying just about anywhere, assume an extra 1-2 hours of just dicking around, getting luggage, getting rental car or fighting through the subways, etc etc.

      Travelling in Scandinavia was orgasmic by comparison to the US system. Stockholm to Oslo in 3 hours on a fast train, no pre-boarding, post-boarding, endless security checks, etc etc. I travel back and forth from Boston to Albany, NY constantly, and I have the choice of Greyhound or a cheap business class flight.

      Greyhound... SUCKS. Ok, remember stockholm to Oslo? 30 US dollars, covering almost twice the distance in huge seats with all sorts of accomodations. Greyhound? 35 dollars to sit in a smelly uncomfortable chair for 4 hours.

      Flying? Well, greyhound takes 4, so surely flying is much faster than that. WRONG AGAIN! While flight time is only like 50-60 min, getting to the airport early, along with fighting your way through multiple subway conversions generally saves only about an hour.

      Oh, to have a train that could make it in 2 hours for a reasonable cost (say 40 bucks). But alas, we only have amtrak that can do it in 6 hours for a paltry $60

      grumble grumble, oh to be in sweden again

      --
      my last sig was too controversial... now, a new and improved useless sig!
    16. Re:Japan is linear by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Well... some historical perspective is needed. What people don't realize is that railroads (and especially passenger rail) used to be viewed the way that people view ... say, Microsoft today. Greedy, monopolistic, etc. etc. Roads were first built as kind of a socialist response to these "greedy" companies (same with suburbs actually). As a matter of fact, the interstates were built from funds from a railroads tax that was imposed during world war 2. You have to realize is that back then, that would be the equivalent of taxing Microsoft to fund Linux development let's say.

      The railroads tax is now gone and freight roads are now very profitable (and almost completely unsubsidized) but they still have to pay the road tax (this was going to be dropped in the new energy bill).

      As for gas taxes, well, I believe that gas taxes pay for about 40% of roads and car fees and taxes pay 20%. That leaves a 40% subsidation rate, and I agree that that should be covered with a gas tax and many states are looking to raise their gas taxes.

      This is why the anti-tax movement in the US is a good thing, IMO. With the general funds being squeezed down at some point wasteful subsized things like road construction will habe to be funded at some point by "user fees" (gas taxes).

    17. Re:Japan is linear by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Albany to Boston? I'd just drive... comfortable, convenient. I can also get off the highway and take the scenic route if I get bored.

    18. Re:Japan is linear by rattler14 · · Score: 1

      Oh, i'd love to. Believe me I would. However, Owning/maintaining a car in boston is not trivial/cheap. Cost and hassle of endless parking fees and registrations, ugh. When I used to live back home with my family, making a weekend trip to boston was in fact easy, convenient, comfortable, etc etc.

      Now, the other way around (as a grad student) is way too unaffordable. Car insurance is disgusting high for people in the 18-25 age group, and parking anywhere near where I live in boston costs a cool 400/term... This for the 5-6 times a year i make the round trip, costs more than all the greyhound tickets.

      I agree, and I wish I had a car, but for me and many others, its' just not a cost feasible option.

      --
      my last sig was too controversial... now, a new and improved useless sig!
    19. Re:Japan is linear by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Dude, the cost of operating a car is FAR more than just the cost of mining, processing, and shipping the oil.

      You didn't say "the cost of operating a car in the US is held artificaially low", you said "gas prices in the US are held artificially low". Electric cars use roads but not gasoline. Leaf blowers and lawn mowers use gasoline but not roads. The price of gasoline does not have a direct natural relationship with the cost of the road system, thus your definition of the "true price" of gasoline depends entirely on political philosophy rather than actual fact. You may philosophically believe that gasoline should reflect the cost of the road system, but the world seems evenly split both directions on the issue, so your claims of "artificially low" depend on what country you decide is "normal".

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  19. UK is waaaaay behind on this one by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

    ... the average speed of our trains is about 5-10% of that! Or at least it seems like it.

    A german firm just had to deliberately trash a 10-mile section of railway line, just to reduce it to the conditions that UK trains run on. It actually cost them money (a few million pounds) to simulate the pathetic condition of UK trains.

    Unless you're in London, of course, where the tube is pretty good...

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:UK is waaaaay behind on this one by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      > the average speed of our trains is about 5-10% of that!

      You've obviouslt had better experience of the UK rail network than I have.

      > Unless you're in London, of course, where the tube is pretty good...

      Unless, of course, you're a Londoner :) It never fails to amaze me how much Londoners moan about the tube - maybe they ought to try public transport in other areas of the UK sometime. Of course, the thing with the tube is that 9 days out of 10, it works fine - and nobody notices. But on the 10th day, something goes wrong - and when that happens, the whole network seems to grind to a halt, and that's the day that people remember. When you get something right, nobody remembers. When you get something wrong, nobody forgets...

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    2. Re:UK is waaaaay behind on this one by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      >Unless you're in London, of course, where the tube is pretty good...

      Are you living in some kind of parallel London I don't have access to? I'd call the tube many things, but good wouldn't be one of them.

    3. Re:UK is waaaaay behind on this one by in7ane · · Score: 1

      "Unless you're in London, of course, where the tube is pretty good..."

      Constant delays, regular derailments, yep... pretty good...

      I agree though, much better (comparatively cleaner mainly) than the trains (except eurostar and the Heathrow Express).

    4. Re:UK is waaaaay behind on this one by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

      Agreed with the moaners, but I can be benevolent now. I ditched the tube to (motor)bike into work - an hour's journey is now half that, or was, until some complete **** stole my bike a week or so ago. Putting up with it for December, but will be back on 2 wheels come the New Year.

      Simon

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    5. Re:UK is waaaaay behind on this one by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1
      I agree though, much better (comparatively cleaner mainly) than the trains

      Woah, I read that spending an hour on the tube is equivalent to smoking a pack of 20 cigarettes. The tube smell (carbon particles?) is why I prefer to walk from Charing Cross rather than use the tube.

  20. 352.99407 cubits per second. by zhenlin · · Score: 5, Funny

    God measured in cubits.

    Also, 581 kph = 116.5050712 microparsecs per century.

    1. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Zwets · · Score: 1
      Actually, that's, 16.5050712, according to Google calculator.

      Massively useful that thing, too bad it doesn't do phrases like "100 gigapixel pictures in libraries of congress" yet.

      --
      One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. - Will Duran
    2. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet the train's fuel economy is 40 rods to the hogshead.

    3. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by phfpht · · Score: 2, Funny

      As I head down the Karma tubes: 581 (kilometers per hours) = 970,412.789 furlongs per fortnight.

    4. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Jesrad · · Score: 1

      In Planck units it should be something like 538.4 gigaLp / Tp. I've always thought Goddess measured everything in Planck elemental units. For, you know, consistency...

      --
      Maybe we deserve this world ?
    5. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, often there's some sort of connection to pi or something. (1 nanocentury approximately equals pi seconds.) The closest I can get is that 581 km/hr == 3.16 nanoparsecs / week == sqrt(10) nanoparsecs / week. That's accurate to three significant figures, though, which is the same precision as the original quantity.

      Also, 581 km/hr == 2.005 leagues / minute. (Wow, 20,000 leagues under the sea is really far under the sea. Especially considering that 1 league == 3 miles, and the diameter of the earth is only 2,642 leagues. At 20,000 leagues under the (surface of the) sea, you've actually overshot the other side of the Earth by 6.57 times the diameter of the Earth.)

      Of course, all this gets to be less fun when you realize all you need to do is type stuff into /bin/units and it does all the dirty work.

    6. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by zhenlin · · Score: 1

      You're right... It must have been a different obscene measure.

      While it doesn't do 'library of congress' as a data unit, or '100 gigapixel picture', you can still do things like '100 * 10^9 * 4 / 4TB'.

    7. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by gnu-generation-one · · Score: 1
    8. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1

      When I was a kid, our trains got eighty furlongs to the hogshead, and that's the way we likes it.

      Now, to make a long story short, is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    9. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      That's how many per forthnight????

    10. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming constant operation over the 2 week period, 426,981,627.072 cubits.

      - DRFSR

    11. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by plastik55 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Er, "20,000 leagues under the sea" does not mean straight down... it means a voyage of 20,000 horizontal leagues, done in a submarine.


      Of course, this is Slashdot, I can't expect you've actually read the book.

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    12. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by glenebob · · Score: 1

      What good is it to measure distance/distance???

      My car is fast... it goes 1 lightyear per lightyear!

    13. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by SEE · · Score: 1

      Forunately, a hogshead is a measure of volume, not distance, and so the statement is one of fuel efficiency. As was the original Simpsons quote, where the vehicle was a car instead of a train, and in which Grandpa was decrying the metric system.

    14. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by WhoReallyCares · · Score: 1
    15. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by the+pickle · · Score: 1

      Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

      What's a cubit?

      p

    16. Re:352.99407 cubits per second. by zhenlin · · Score: 1

      About 45cm... that is approximately the length of the forearm from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow.

  21. Maglev has been promised for 50 years by tintruder · · Score: 0, Interesting
    I remember as a little kid reading my dad's old Popular Mechanics and popular Science magazines about maglev trains and how they were imminent.

    But other than test units, none have been deployed.

    Why? Because the cost is exponentially higher than simple steel rails. Not just in construction costs, but also in the cost to power the trains.

    Once you have maglev, you are restricted to long-distance trips because there is no maglev track feature similar to a "switch" which allows the trains to change tracks without slowing down to a crawl. Either you have just a few trains running the length of the track, meaning it isn't really "mass transit", or you operate like the current bullet trains do right now and stop at every station, losing the advantage of the high-speed capability due to frequent stops.

    Remember that in order to stop on a siding, or to allow other trains to pass, you need the aformentioned "switches" which do not exist for maglev, thus they are only practical for long-distance hi-speed trips.

    Given the lack of developable land in Japan, where do they expect to put the tracks, since they would have to serve the existing stations which feed regional, metro, and local rail? Would they replace the existing bullet trains?

    Seems unlikely because you'd then move 10% of the passengers at 1000% of the cost.

    Further, Japan is subject to earthquakes more frequently than most developed nations, often causing tremendous damage.

    High-speed rail demands extremely precise rail alignment and a continuous maintenance program.

    Fortunately, after an earthquake, existing rail lines can be quickly repaired with little more than sledgehammers, shovels and a welder in the back of a truck. Service is reestablished quickly, and the trains can run again.

    Rail trains can even run efficiently at low speeds, as opposed to maglev.

    Maglev relies on the aerodynamic flow between train and track to generate a "cushion" on which the train rides. At low speeds, this cushion is inadequate or nonexistant.

    At low speeds, the power consumption skyrockets as the same coils remain energized for longer periods of time rather than rapidly cycling to the next zone. Resistance grows with heat and more power is required to do the same thing.

    Thus the trains have to run fast to be tenable to operate. But if they run fast, they cannot make the stops necessary to carry the load necesary to sustain operations. Then to service these loads, they would need to build far more tracks, or sacrifice speed for stops, negating the touted speed of the train.

    There is also the environmental/health impact of intense, uncontained magnetic fields. When you go for an MRI, you remove all metal from your body. People with metal implants cannot be MRId, else they be thrown about by the magnetic field, or the implant be torn from their flesh. Here, we have staggeringly powerful magnetic fields laid out linearly through the countryside. While cycled, LIMs must energize both in front of, and behind the moving payload, and are thus unshielded.

    As I recall from riding the Shin extensively, you are rarely if ever more than 20 minutes between stops. The few "express" trains are curtailed in top speed and times available so they do not run into or get run into by the other trains making more stops.

    Summary?

    Great rail technology, as usual from Japan, but difficult to see how it will be utilized in their existing infrastructure on basis of facilities sharing, construction cost, maintenance requirements, earthquake survivability, and ability to generate sustaining revenue.

    And of course, kids can't put coins on the rails any more!

    1. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by 4im · · Score: 1

      But other than test units, none have been deployed.

      AFAIK, not too long ago, a Transrapid (the german maglev train) has been deployed in China - with the german chancellor Schroeder, one of the guys that prevented it from being deployed in germany, attending the inauguration.

      So indeed, there exists at least one deployment in "production" conditions, not testing.

    2. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by in7ane · · Score: 1

      "Maglev relies on the aerodynamic flow between train and track to generate a "cushion" on which the train rides. At low speeds, this cushion is inadequate or nonexistant.

      At low speeds, the power consumption skyrockets as the same coils remain energized for longer periods of time rather than rapidly cycling to the next zone. Resistance grows with heat and more power is required to do the same thing."


      Actually they have wheels, which they use up to about 100km/h - solving the inefficiency at low speeds problem. Obviously the issue of many stops being inefficient remains.

      The magnetic fields and metal implants issue sounds like FUD unless you can provide a source. Reason being that the infront/behind fields are probably far enough, and the track is behind a (plastic :) fence. Also keep in mind that it's likely that the train itself has metal parts other than the coils - and it works without processors/wiring being torn apart.

    3. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by turnip_twaddler · · Score: 1

      High-speed rail demands extremely precise rail alignment and a continuous maintenance program.

      The train doesn't touch the rails (by several inches) while it is moving ...thats the 'LEV' part in MAGLEV

      Maglev relies on the aerodynamic flow between train and track to generate a "cushion" on which the train rides. At low speeds, this cushion is inadequate or nonexistant.

      Maglev uses electromagnetic repulsion from two similar polarities to create lifting force, (and motive force) weather it is moving or not ...
      that's the 'MAG' part in MAGLEV

      try actually reading those PM articles next time

    4. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the fun part about the japanese Maglev is that it can work like a normal train too. It has retractable wheels.

      The tracks of maglev trains are extreamly cheap in maintenace cost far less than conventianal steel tracks. The initial constrution cost is higher tough. Basically it is build once and forget.(or close to) Also the tracks take much less space than steel ones and are much less interfering with the surroundings.

      The switches for maglev work by bending the track itself, at least for the german maglev. I do not know how the japanese do it maybe the use conventional steeltracks for switching and just have long highspeed maglev tracks between citys where the trains retract their wheels.

      And why do you all use kph? It is km/h or kmh.
      kph is like saying 1000 per hour, 1000 what?

    5. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by starseeker · · Score: 1

      "they are only practical for long-distance hi-speed trips."

      True. Which is why I'm still hoping the US will incorporate them into their rail system. Then we can finally avoid Amtrak running on freight rails, too.

      --
      "I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
    6. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by Animaether · · Score: 5, Informative
      But other than test units, none have been deployed.

      Actually, the one in Shanghai, PRC, has been 'deployed'.

      but also in the cost to power the trains.

      Of course the maintenance on regular trains is a wee bit higher - unless you think replacing those big steel wheels and the brake systems due to wear and tear is something that's cheap.

      Once you have maglev, you are restricted to long-distance trips because there is no maglev track feature similar to a "switch"

      Really ? So what, exactly, do you call this thing then ?
      http://www.transrapid.de/en/medien/praesentatio n/1 1.html

      Given the lack of developable land in Japan, where do they expect to put the tracks, since they would have to serve the existing stations which feed regional, metro, and local rail? Would they replace the existing bullet trains?

      Maglevs can easily operate on levitated tracks above existing tracks if so needed. Of course replacement would be a better option, but disrupting commuters is likely not a viable option, so alternative transportation would have to be introduced for as long as construction would last.

      High-speed rail demands extremely precise rail alignment and a continuous maintenance program

      Rail, yes. But this is maglev. Rail doesn't give you an inch leeway. Maglev does. Maglev gives you way -more- than an inch leeway. Slight disruption of the guideways won't be much of a disaster.

      Speaking of which - maglevs can't derail. You don't happen to know the -main- cause of rail incidents is, would you ?

      But if the segment does get destroyed, you install a new segment. Yes, it'll be more than a bit of steel and welding, depending on the maglev construction (i.e. linear motor in carriage, or linear motor in segments). But either which would not take much longer than replacing a segment of steel rail.

      Rail trains can even run efficiently at low speeds, as opposed to maglev

      Moot point. These things are meant to go fast, not slow.
      When do regular trains ever go slow ?
      1. When going through neighborhoods to prevent too much noise from being generated.
      - Maglevs are MUCH more silent, not an issue
      2. When leaving a station
      - Maglevs accellerate much faster, not an issue*
      3. When entering a station
      - Maglevs decellerate much faster, not an issue*

      * where they do go too slow, no worries - the levitation is generally not handled the same way, but rather by batteries in the carriages. They can levitate just fine without external power. Should they run out of internal power as wel, they generally 'land' on plain rubber wheels, and can be collected by another maglev.

      There is also the environmental/health impact of intense, uncontained magnetic fields.

      You're talking about te type of system where the linear induction motor is inside the track. The track segments get switched by the passing of the train. The magnetic field is directed upwards and does not extend a lobe of more than 10 meters at best.
      Which means that you have to be standing on the track, when the train passes over it, to be affected. I *think* you would have other worries at such a time :P
      Even if you think a bird may be affected, though, a track section's length is up to 62 meters in length. Even if travelling at 'only' 400km/h, that's passed in 1.79 seconds, with the length of the segment decreasing over that time as the train passes over.
      Inside the train the magnetic field is negligable - less than a CRT monitor.

      And of course, kids can't put coins on the rails any more!

      Kids these days put their coins in Tesla coils anyway :)
    7. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by Reverberant · · Score: 1

      Most of your points are valid, but I had to comment on this one:

      1. When going through neighborhoods to prevent too much noise from being generated.
      - Maglevs are MUCH more silent, not an issue

      While it's true that a maglev vehicle is quieter than a steel wheel/steel rail train at the same speed, I can assure you (having participated in the noise & vibration measurement program for the TR08 for FRA) that when a maglev passes you at 300 mph, you will know it was there.

      People have this perception that maglevs are guiet because they "float on air" - at low speeds (<100mph) they are fairly quiet, but at higher speeds the aerodynamic effects take over and they literally scream.

      See my webpage for a link to the FRA TR08 vibration measurement report. The Volpe Center also has a link to the noise measurement report, but I don't have a direct link handy.

    8. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Amtrak running on freight rails, too.

      Amen to that. I've ridden Amtrak quite a lot, and I must say that the big problem they have is with the rights-of-way they lease from the Union Pacific Railroad (and others). See, freight always takes priority over passenger traffic. So there's no limit to the amount of time you can be delayed while waiting for a freight train. Hours and hours and hours of waiting.

      Personally, I regret the fact that the wars, etc., haven't yet given us $20.00/gallon gasoline.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    9. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The MRI and metal bits thing is quite real.

      If you have a metallic implant [fillings, in some cases], you don't get MRI'd.

      A guy was killed two years ago when someone left an empty air cylinder in the MRI room. The 50lb tank was picked up by the magnet and slammed through the poor guy in the tube.

    10. Re:Maglev has been promised for 50 years by Animaether · · Score: 1

      Of course you will know it's there. Just like you will know a 767 flying over.
      But compare that to a 747, and I'm sure you'd be VERY happy to know that your nearby airport is closing airspace to 747s at night.

      I should have said "not nearly as much of an issue", perhaps.

      Oh, and I've been at the Transrapid test track. Give me that sound anytime over the trains rushing by across beams :)

  22. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its sad that you've been brainwashed into thinking that.

  23. Build your own! by valentyn · · Score: 4, Informative

    As we've seen home built roller costers and rockets on /., now is the time to build your own Maglev train. All you need is posterboard, foamboard, or cardboard, 20-30 square or rectangular magnets, masking tape. Then follow the instructions. Have fun!

    --
    my other sig is a 500 page novel
    1. Re:Build your own! by theMerovingian · · Score: 1


      I always wanted to build "back to the future" skateboard parks using similar principles as a child.

      *moment of nostalgia*

      --
      "If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
  24. Look at the picture... by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

    If that's what the scenery looks like, I'm not sure I'd want to fly by it at 581 kph.

  25. Twenty Years ago... by Crass+Spektakel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Twenty Years ago the first maglevs were build in Germany. Increadibly fast and very quiet. For Testingpurposes. Since then ... nothing happened. Oh, yes, they sold the whole stuff for a piece of bread to china which also build the first "german maglev" for public use. Well, in germany we still have no public maglev.

    At least in central europa (germany, france, benelux) we have conventional trains running at speeds of 150-300kph since decades. But then europa has a highly incompatible trainsystem. Western Europa (except once Great Britain) uses one type of track, eastern europa another one and while the british system closely resembles western europas tracks its not safe for high speeds.

    Thank goodness china desided to use western-europa tracks which will more or less force eastern europa and russia to adopt or wither away.

    --
    "Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
    1. Re:Twenty Years ago... by BenjyD · · Score: 3, Funny

      >and while the british system closely resembles western europas tracks its not safe for high speeds...

      or if it's hot, cold, snowing, raining, autumn, or if Jarvis has been within a mile of it.

    2. Re:Twenty Years ago... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you seem to know a lot about Jupiter's moons... ;-)

      In English we call that continent Europe... and since when were France or the Benelux countries in central Europe? More like western Europe to me.

    3. Re:Twenty Years ago... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Transrapid built a working one in China and is in the process of cutting a deal for a much longer one there.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    4. Re:Twenty Years ago... by jcupitt65 · · Score: 1

      I think it's earlier than that. I remember a maglev test track outside Cambridge (UK) in the 1970s.

    5. Re:Twenty Years ago... by TonkaTown · · Score: 1

      Actually a lot of Spain uses a different "system" too, commonly known as broad guage where the rails are further apart.

      Great Britain has the same "system" - standard guage - as the rest of Europe and trains on some lines commonly run at 200-240km/h. Eurostar trains (slightly redesgned TGVs) run at 300km/h in the UK on special track, just the same as in France, and Belgium.

    6. Re:Twenty Years ago... by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      And they also just broke a speed record on Nov. 12th. Only 501 kph, but on a "real" track soon to be opened for public transport, and with a train passing in the opposite direction at 430 kph.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    7. Re:Twenty Years ago... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      depends what do you intend as "Eastern Europe" - Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and post-Yugoslavic countries have exactly the same gauge as Germany, Austria or France. In Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet republic they have wider track. There's a station where those two connect, in southern Poland (as the wide track was built to transport metal ore from USSR to the steelworks in the 70's)

    8. Re:Twenty Years ago... by twaltari · · Score: 1

      Eastern Europe doesn't cover Finland and Sweden which also use "Russian gauge" (http://parovoz.com/spravka/gauges-e.html).

  26. How long before they place a bomb on a plane? by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    Oh, wait they did that already. They also crashed 2 planes into very tall buildings and wiped out lots of people high up in the buildings. Better not live or work in or near any very tall buildings.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  27. Re:too fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long before someone thinks of the possible terrorist implications... Oh wait.

  28. So right and So wrong by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I do not fully agree with your assesment of Chicago->LA, the most important route to build would be NY->Pit->Det->Chg->Mil.
    These 4 cities have more traffic between them than any other route in the USA. In fact, most airlines make all their profits doing cargo between NY/Chg.
    As to Chi->LA, well, I would argue for 3 East-west high-speed maglevs with stops every 1000M. Likeiwise, 4 North-South (W, Rocky, Missisppi River, E coast) to carry cargo.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:So right and So wrong by Angram · · Score: 1

      "the most important route to build would be NY->Pit->Det->Chg->Mil"

      Build? We already have lines that go to those places (and most other major cities). Amtrak is waiting, they problem is that people don't use the service enough to expand the system.

      "NY/Chg" "Chi->LA"

      Hah! A quick search on Amtrak.com will show you that there are nonstop trains between those already.

      --

      GL
    2. Re:So right and So wrong by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      hey problem is that people don't use the service enough to expand the system.

      And the problem being that you are thinking of moving ppl. They fly. Few take trains. Instead, follow the MONEY. The money is in cargo. All airlines have belly holds that are used for cargo. In fact, Cargo airlines make the highest profits.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cargo airlines make the highest profits.

      yeah, those miniature bags of pretzels are expensive

    4. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah! A quick search on Amtrak.com will show you that there are nonstop trains between those already.
      Odd, I can not find high speed (>300 MPH) trains that do that here in the USA let alone on that route.

    5. Re:So right and So wrong by Angram · · Score: 1

      "Odd, I can not find high speed (>300 MPH) trains that do that here in the USA let alone on that route.

      No one is going to build a faster train when there is no evidence that people will ride it. The national rail industry (Amtrak) was recently bailed out by the government because they aren't making any money.

      --

      GL
    6. Re:So right and So wrong by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Don't carry ppl (or at least do not target them). Carry cargo. That is what is wrong.
      Amtrak was devoted to just ppl which is why it is losing big. Airlines, Trucking, Shipping, and normal rail are making money hand over fist on this route. Why? becuase, they carry cargo.
      When you look at Rail and Shipping, they have the lowest costs, but have historically had the slowest speeds. Trucking was moderate costs, but relatively quick speeds. Airlines are jack rabbits, but charge for it. A train that can go from Downtown New York to Downtown Chicago in 2.5 hours and charge 1/2 the rate will win big. They will be able to take away a lot of rail, much of trucking, and a fair amount of airline cargo.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:So right and So wrong by ViolentGreen · · Score: 1

      Build? We already have lines that go to those places (and most other major cities). Amtrak is waiting, they problem is that people don't use the service enough to expand the system.

      They are viewed as as a novelty. Apparently there is a track from Chicago to Indianapolis. For a brief time they extended the route to Louisville. Everyone I know in Louisville that used the train did it for the novelty value of it.

      Now when I was in the NY/Jersey area, we used trains all the time. It was easier and cheaper to do so. For most places in the country, it is still easier and more economical to drive yourself for short (several hunderd miles) distances then to buy a train ticked and have to rent a car when you get to your destination to get around. For long distances, with the current system, it is still faster to fly.

      --
      Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
    8. Re:So right and So wrong by mbbac · · Score: 1

      "A USDOT report on high speed rail identified the Southeast corridor as the most economically viable proposed high speed rail corridor in the country."

      SEHSR

      --

      mbbac

    9. Re:So right and So wrong by acaird · · Score: 1
      49 New York-Penn. Station Chicago
      12/05/03 2:50pm
      12/06/03 9:20am Reserved Coach
      48 Chicago New York-Penn. Station
      12/10/03 7:00pm
      12/11/03 1:50pm Reserved Coach

      $157 round trip

      It takes a day, though. :(

      However, the one good thing about trains, when going from big city to big city is that they drop you off where you want to be. No $20, 30 minute cab ride from BFE to downtown. I recently went to Boston, got off at the Back Bay station, wend underground to the hotel, to the attached conference center, and back without ever going outside in Boston. Try that on a plane (although, Boston is a nice city to go outside it, but I was there for 36 hours, so had to be quick).

      High-speed rail between NYC and Chicago would be excellent, as it is, it's a ~2 hour plane ride, plus 2 hours early at the airport, plus 30 min in a cab on both ends, for a total of a 5 hour trip, where I can't plug in a laptop or use my cell phone. If I spent the same 5 hours on a train, with power, a better food selection, and my cell phone, it'd be like I never left the office.

      I think if more people tried the train, more people would ride the train. Amtrak should give away tickets to people who have never ridden the train before, just to prove that it's worth it.

      --
      Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. E. Tufte
    10. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      East-west high-speed maglevs with stops every 1000M

      Dude -- what? I actually have no clue, but I would highly doubt that a high-speed train would be able to get up to full speed in that distance, let alone get up to full speed and brake in that distance. You might as well use a trolley if you are going to be stopping every other block all the way to LA.

    11. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is bullshit. I ride trains for precisely that distance rating all the time. It costs about the same as driving, cheaper if you factor in long-term maint. costs on the car. Plus I can read or work on my computer in the train. Maybe get up and walk around to the lounge car and stretch my legs.

    12. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I think if more people tried the train, more people would ride the train. Amtrak should give away tickets to people who have never ridden the train before, just to prove that it's worth it.

      That's the truth! A lot of people have this negative image of trains that they got from somewhere. Probably the auto companies. I switched over to riding trains exclusively a while back and I'm glad I did. I'm not one of these people that has a bleeding, gaping ulcer, so I don't really care if my trip takes a day or whatever. If it's coast to coast I'll get a room and enjoy myself. It's truly relaxing.

      Airplane travel is the precise opposite. The entire trip is a nervous breakdown where you get herded around like cattle, treated like a criminal half of the time, and them squeezed into a craft like a slave ship where you have to listen to some jerk's infant puking on the back of your seat for three hours and screaming bloody murder while you eat your seven pretzels. Then all of the bile around the trip that you brought up.

      Is the time really that important? You can get a lot of work done in two and a half days on a coast to coast train trip with your own room. Or you can just fucking relax for once.

      Yes. More people should just try it. To bad they won't. Oh well, lucky for us I guess, as long as they don't shut down passengar cars, means more space and less noise for us.

    13. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what we are talking about is moving people! This dire fucking need to be anywhere in the country in under five hours is just a ludicrious symptom of the cell phone society, fed by auto and air cartels. You do not really need to fly everywhere. The speed of a train is just fine. Yes there are exceptions but these are fucking exceptions. The "Amurican" meat eating public does not grasp that. Amtrak's slow death is the result of a sick society, not a mistake on Amtrak's part.

    14. Re:So right and So wrong by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      You do not really need to fly everywhere. The speed of a train is just fine.

      Bah. I want to fly everywhere AND only go at the speed of a train. Clearly, passenger zeppelins are the answer to our transportation problems.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    15. Re:So right and So wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Damn straight! Huge zeppelin networks would answer most of the world's problems. Especially the glass floor variety.

      It is interesting that they are a favorite of science fiction authors. I don't know how many books I've read where the future consists of zeppelin travel.

    16. Re:So right and So wrong by ncc74656 · · Score: 1
      This dire fucking need to be anywhere in the country in under five hours is just a ludicrious symptom of the cell phone society, fed by auto and air cartels.

      Let's say you decide to use your 2 weeks of vacation in one shot. Let's say you decide to go visit family/see stuff/whatever on the other side of the country. Do you want us to believe you'd be willing to waste half of your vacation cooped up inside a train? I don't believe that for a second...it's nuts. Don't presume to think you have a fscking clue what anybody needs, AC.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
  29. Germany, France do by Goonie · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Whilst I haven't ridden on the 300 km/h French TGV, I have ridden on the German ICE trains, and they are insanely great. Power sockets, big comfy chairs, good food, beer, and coffees in the restaurant, even (cellular, not wifi) net access. It's not cheap, but it's very, very good. Not to mention frequent and bloody quick.

    Whilst there are inter-country trains, it's still a damn long way between, say, Hamburg and Rome, and planes would be quicker than the current generation of very fast trains. 600 km/h maglevs will increase considerably the distance over which a train's travel times are comparable to city-airport-airport-city.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:Germany, France do by beezly · · Score: 1

      Actually, the speed record for the TGV is 515.3km/h. They routinely operate at speeds in excess of 400km/h.

    2. Re:Germany, France do by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
      600 km/h maglevs will increase considerably the distance over which a train's travel times are comparable to city-airport-airport-city.

      Indeed, though even at 200 to 300 km/h, conventional high-speed rail has an advantage for a lot of journeys. Many airports and airlines are now advising passengers to arrive at least two hours before their flight in order to allow for security checks and whatnot. Additionally, airports are usually located well outside the city centre (noise concerns, and incompatibility between jet aircraft and tall buildings), adding a half hour of travel time at each end in and out of the city. Allow an hour to disembark and get your checked luggage.

      Compare rail travel, where I can arrive a half hour before my trip, and I don't have to check my (single) suitcase, and the train station is often in the heart of the city. (I know that in Toronto I don't have to even go outdoors to get to the financial district, the theatre district, or city hall from the train station.)

      So, air travel has an extra 3.5 hours of overhead, before one even accounts for time in flight. That's more than 1000 km at 300 km/h, and a respectable 700 km at 200 km/h.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    3. Re:Germany, France do by El+Cabri · · Score: 1

      You're right for the speed record (which is still the world's record on conventional rail), but the peak commercial speed on the TGV network is around 320 km/h. And unless you go between certain pairs of major cities such as Paris/Brussels or Paris/Lyon, an average of 50% of your mileage will be done on non-highspeed rails, at much slower speeds.

      The main merit of the French highspeed network is to have been started more than twenty years ago. It is also extremely safe. Not one single person has died due to a technical glitch or a human error aboard a TGV ever, while about 1 billion people have taken it.

      A country that would start now to invest in a high speed rail network is hundreds of billions of euros away from a comparable network. And given the ever increasing economic and regulatory pressures against massive government investment, especially in competitive, commercial sectors such as civil transportation, this is unlikely to ever happen.

    4. Re:Germany, France do by El+Cabri · · Score: 1

      Even when the train ride is longer door to door, there are other benefits to rail:

      Instead of spending half of your time changing transportation, waiting in line for check-in or security, waiting to pick up your luggage, etc, you spend 95% of your time seating comfortably, able to use your cellphone and to plug in your laptop. So your time is much more useful and comfortable. If you're a professional you can really get some work done, and hence can afford to spend more time on the trip.

      Rail first class is affordable to individuals and offers the comfort and legroom of Air Business classes. Even the Rail cheapest fares are much more comfortable than airline coach classes.

      The time schedules are also way more reliable.

  30. corepirate nazi puppets N0T american by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they don't read much of anything, except maybe how their phonIE funnIE monIE, & or pending stock markup fraud execrable indictmeNTs are doing.

    lookout bullow. the daze of the phonIE felons is WANing into coolapps/the abyss at the speed of right/?light? all 'measurements' produced by the pateNTdead eyecon0meter kode are guaranteed accurate within won or two billyonerrors.

  31. You talk about Europe as if it's a country. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    It isn't.

    There are no coherent policies within the European Union, certainly nothing like a "Europe-wide high-speed rail system". The European Union is a bunch of countries who don't really like each other very much getting together to prevent from becoming financially irrelevant as the size of the superstate increases.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
    1. Re:You talk about Europe as if it's a country. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      You don't know what you're talking about.

      Ever heard of Thalys? It's a high-speed rail link between France, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands operated jointly by these countries. At the moment you can travel from Paris to Brussel, Cologne and the Ruhr bassin on these trains and I believe the Brussels-Amsterdam portion is about to be completed. When it is, you'll be able to travel from Paris to Amsterdam in less than two hours. That's downtown to downtown. Compare this with the time it will take you to get to CDG, check in, pass security controls, board, fly 1 hours to Amsterdam, spend another 20 minutes in the plane while it gets to the gate (Schipol is one of the worst airports for that, the gates always seem to be miles away from the landing strips), wait for your baggage and get downtown.

      That's just an example. The Eurostar has been in operation between France, Belgium and England for a couple of years now. The French are also working with the Italians to create a high-speed link to Milan and Northern Italy, across they Alps. There are also talks of linking the TGV Mediteranne with the Spanish TGV Network by adding a line between Perpignan and Barcelona.

      For some reason, many Americans fear the EU and try to dismiss it as a heavy, socialist, frog-controlled superstructure that only brings burocracy and more taxes. I am the first one to concede that the burocracy sometimes appears overwhelming (but can you do things otherwise when 15 distinct governments speaking 12 languages try to work together?), but they do have a vision, along with 'coherent policies' and an agenda to implement them. I you wanted to use high-speed rail transport to ridicule the EU, you chose a very bad example.

    2. Re:You talk about Europe as if it's a country. by Lars+T. · · Score: 1, Troll
      [...]a bunch of countries who don't really like each other very much getting together to prevent from becoming financially irrelevant as the size of the superstate increases.

      Sounds like the US of A.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  32. Nozomi by Animaether · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what exactly "Nozomi" means, but a search on images.google.com sure didn't give me a bullet train :/

    1. Re:Nozomi by BJH · · Score: 1

      It means 'Hope'.
      And if you search in Japanese ;) it gives you this among the first four images.

    2. Re:Nozomi by divide+overflow · · Score: 1

      > I'm not sure what exactly "Nozomi" means, but a search on images.google.com sure didn't give me a bullet train :/

      Well, do some more homework and you'll find out that "nozomi" can also be interpreted as wish, desire, or hope . It is also a common woman's name as well as the name of Japan's first mission to the planet Mars.

    3. Re:Nozomi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next time, include a winking smiley for the humor-impaired, you inensitive clod!

    4. Re:Nozomi by KH · · Score: 1

      Some other people already have answered what Nozomi means, so, I won't repeat it.

      I always found it was rather interesting how they named the bullet trains. The first generation of the bullet train (introduced in 1964) had two variants--Kodama (echo) and Hikari (light). Kodama was the slower one, making stops at every available station. Considering that echo travels at the speed of sound, I think the idea was to name bullet trains with something really fast. The Japanese word for sound would be ``oto,'' but that doesn't sound too great. I guess that was why they chose the name Kodama. That sounds nicer.

      When the time came for them to introduce new, faster train, I suppose they were in trouble. For, they had already used the word for light. I think the choice Nozomi was rather ingenious. The hope or the will or just a thought can reache anywhere in an instance. I can think of the end of the universe now. Much faster than the light.

      I'm afraid that they will have to introduce a new train, be it either a new generation of the Shinkansen or a maglev train. I'm curious what kind of name they will come up with at that time. Tachyon? Anti-matter?

    5. Re:Nozomi by tap · · Score: 1

      Expect that picture isn't of a nozomi train. It looks like a hikari rail star to me. I rode one from Tokyo to Hiroshima, but the fastest it ever went (when I had GPS reception anyway) was 175 mph.

    6. Re:Nozomi by BJH · · Score: 1

      *Sigh*

      The same trains are often used for both Nozomi and Hikari. The picture I posted was of a Series 700, which is indeed used for both.

  33. Trains can't go as fast as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Modern trains are amazingly fast, but they face certan limitations compared to planes. For example, you just can't go through a tunnel at 580 kph. Even at 200 kph, when you hit a train tunnel, your ears pop. Try that a double the speed and the train would implode. Fast train already have fancy air conditioning systems to deal with the problem, but there are limits to what you can do.

  34. wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1 kilmoile = 1000 miles

    so this train would be 361000 kiloMILES per hour or 581000 km/(kilometers)h

    Of course, this article talks about 581 kiloMETERs an hour, which is equivalent to 361 MILES per hour, not kilomiles...

  35. Re:Sad... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Not really. Security is something that should be designed in rather than added as an after thought. Look at how long it took Unix to be secure and how Windows is still not secure (not their fault; it was not designed in from the gitgo).
    Maglevs have to be suspended, so that makes them a bit easier target (RPG, Missle, etc). Of course, somebody could simply hit the engine of the a number of trains here and that would cause similiar damage (hit one that carries loads of chemicals and see how politicians and citizens react).

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  36. The time spent waiting for the train? by mrb000gus · · Score: 1

    This sounds great, but a lot of the time spent when catching a train is the time spent travelling to/from the station, and waiting for the train to arrive. I've often spent longer waiting for trains to arrive than the actual length of the journey especially when the train is delayed (yes I am in the UK).

    This applies to airplanes as well, when you're expected to get to the airport 2 or 3 hours before international flights.

    Does anyone think these magnetic rails could eventually be used for long distance overseas/international trips? (Hmm, rail tracks over the ocean, could look like something out of F-Zero :> )

    1. Re:The time spent waiting for the train? by charlieafrid · · Score: 1

      You never have to wait for trains here in Tokyo. They are on time to the second unless someone kills himself.

    2. Re:The time spent waiting for the train? by Pelops · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well too bad you are living in UK, well known for his train system :)

      More seriously, though, i disagree with you to some extent, having taken both the plane and the train extensively.

      Waiting for another train or plane is exactly the same thing. They can be both delayed very easily by technical problems, weather problems, and strike (only if you are in France of course, by the way i am French).

      But when i look at the trip Paris-London, i prefer taking the train. You have quite a big number of trains leaving everyday to London. The overall trip is around 2-3 hours depending on stop. But the big plus is you leave in the center of Paris, you arrive in the center of London.
      Now when you look at the plane, you would be better off if you arrive at least one hour before (probably more as they get anal with security). Then you have 45 mn plane and you have to wait for your case, etc... But since the airports are far from the center, you can add easily 45 mn both ways to get from the airport to the center.

      Annoying !!! I prefer moving more freely in the train and then to arrive directly in London, than having to take the plane.

      Pelops

    3. Re:The time spent waiting for the train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to be useful for transcontinental travel they should be underground and depressurized, in a vacuum the train could get very well over mach 2 or more but instead of coils it should be rings, kinda a very big and loong railgun, maybe we cold get london tokyo in 5 or 4 hours,heck let`s think big!, use this technology for the babel tower, I mean the real babel tower located in ecuator ( kilimajaro mount for a baseplate, or even in venezuela great plains), accelerating great trains right into geosync, makin space travel easier, well maybe i`m just daydreaming, you people think I`m too farfetched??

      sorry for my english as this is not my native language...

  37. Not quite by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    If you follow the interstate that would be true. But, a maglev is not on the ground. It has its' own ROW as it is elevated. So a maglev could simply pick a straightline and proceed. Now, as to Conspiracies, .... :)

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Not quite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, considering that in many places, most of the land on either side of the interstate is private owned, it would be prohibitively expensive to buy up all that land for a straight shot. They didn't make the interstates curvey just for fun, but because it was much cheaper that way.

  38. And Spain by pubjames · · Score: 1


    And Spain is getting there, so before long you'll be able to travel, for instance, Seville-Berlin on high-speed train.

    I have read that AirFrance and Lufthansa are having to close some internal routes because they can't compete with the high-speed trains.

    1. Re:And Spain by tigersha · · Score: 1

      AirFrance does not fly Paris-Brussels anymore because the train is faster, period. The thing is, in both cities the airport is aways from the city and you have a 30 minut checking and so on. The stations are in the middle of the cities and you cann arrive at the station 2 minutes before the train comes by. That 1-2 hour schlep to and from the airport makes all the difference.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    2. Re:And Spain by will_die · · Score: 1

      It is not the trains that are the problem, it is the raise of low cost airplane carriers.
      Carriers like ryanair and others are cheap(did Frankfort to Rome for a total round trip cost of around US$85 and from my arriving at the airport to being at my hotel in Rome took just under 3 hours) a similar train trip would take around 15 hours and cost over US$150.
      Europe trains are great for small trips(6 hr or less) or to remote areas but beyond that planes are usally cheaper; and even there for between busy locations planes still beat them out.

  39. Re:WHOA!!!!!!!! by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

    Maybe next time you Americans read what are abbreviations in metric system, before write an article that uses them.

    Hey dude, at least we americans know that Kelvin is abbreviated with a capital K.

    --
    Like what I said? You might like my music
  40. Great......... by defishguy · · Score: 1

    Godzilla's gonna break a sweat trying to get this one!

    1. Re:Great......... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lizards are cold-blooded. They don't sweat. Get a life man!

  41. Bah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Southern California, our trains break the speed records on the other end of the scale! And they do it consistently, too!

    </cheap-jab-at-metrolink>

  42. Re:Sad... by in7ane · · Score: 1

    Put in a failsafe switch, which, when tripped (automatically if anything has gone wrong), reverses the electromagnets and the train stops in a very short distance - since it's not attracted to the track.

    What do you mean, suspended? They are 4 inches off the ground inside a concrete track - not floating 20 feet in mid air. Arguably harder to derail than a normal train which essentially has an inch, if that, overlap with a comparatively thin metal track. And no, force fields are not going to be built in to counter the RPG threat.

  43. GSM at 300 km/h works great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at least on the Paris-Lyon-Marseille line.

  44. In Soviet Russia... by hughk · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    The country is immense. If I remember my geography right, it straddles nine timezones. Rail was established during the Czar time and was developed under the Soviets and in post Soviet Russia it is still working well.

    Planes can move people but they aren't so economical for many kinds of manufactured goods. Trucks are a non-issue for the distances involved. Planes can only move a limited number of people and currently too many people travel between St. Petersburg and Moscow, so a high-speed rail link has been proposed.

    --
    See my journal, I write things there
    1. Re:In Soviet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rails in Russia were built by basically slave labor and prisoners. In modern day industrialized societies this is greatly frowned upon. Not that Russia was unique. The Hoover Dam was basically the same thing in the US. Huge public works like this just don't exist because for some odd reason it is hard to justify losing hundreds of lives working on a project.

  45. stuff by p-unit*or*die · · Score: 0, Troll

    boners & cheese!

    --
    =my ideas be more important than urs=
  46. Not that amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The power needed to overcome air resistance is related to the cube of the velocity.

  47. MOD DOWN, Please by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is so wrong.

    SWITCHES?

    Nothing deployed? The Germans and chinese will be very upset that they do not exist
    Then the mention of lack of land, all the while ignoring that the train is elevated.
    Earthquakes? well, since the train is elevated, the supports are designed to handle earthquakes. It is LRT and Heavy Rail that has problems due to the fact that they are heavily anchored to the earth through every inch of the rail. This allows for the rail to be moved from underneath the train while it is moving.
    BTW, In japan, the monorails have had NO problems with earthquakes/Typhons, etc, while LRT has to be stopped and adjusted after each item.
    Cusion of air for aerodynamics???? It is a "MAGLEV"; it is supported by magnetic force, not aerodynamics.
    As to evironmental impact, give me a break. The amount of force is FAR less than an MRI.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  48. divine, yeah right (n/t) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (no text, slashcode is a bit stupid)

  49. Transrapid already operating by kajot · · Score: 1
    If anyone wants to see a high speed train in action go to Shanghai. The Germans started building the technology more than 25 years ago but were too commercially challengened (as always) to make it a success. They have yet to build one of them in Germany...

    Check http://www.transrapid.de/en/index.html

    1. Re:Transrapid already operating by reignbow · · Score: 1

      I believe you might have misunderstood our political system. For the cost of sacrificing one good idea, for 25 years we have kept countless politicians too busy to do any real harm. Plus, there's the entertainment value.

      --
      Divide et impera!
  50. Two problems... by Polo+monkey · · Score: 0

    1. How are us trainspotters supposed to get numbers of trains that travel that fast?

    2. I would imagine there are health issues if you stick your head out of a window.

    Also,

    Are the tracks effected by fallen leaves?

    Can we ride Back To The Future style skateboards down the track?

    1. Re:Two problems... by confused+one · · Score: 1
      1. How are us trainspotters supposed to get numbers of trains that travel that fast?

      A good camera with a fast shutter.

      2. I would imagine there are health issues if you stick your head out of a window

      there are health implications from just opening the window!

  51. Would this trip wipe out my hard drive? by TooLazyToLogon · · Score: 1

    Do commuters have to worry about their magnetic media on a Maglev train?

    1. Re:Would this trip wipe out my hard drive? by mj_1903 · · Score: 1

      The trains are generally shielded from the magnetic radiation for this type of issue, and to make wearing watches and other metallic objects comfortable. AFAIK anyway, the amount of magnetic force required to damage a hard drive is quite high. Saying this, I wouldn't test it unless you were using a PowerBook of some sort with its heavy metal on the outside. :)

  52. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you mean, suspended? They are 4 inches off the ground inside a concrete track - not floating 20 feet in mid air.
    Elevated rail. and yes, the rail is 5-10 meters in the air, so they make easy targets.

  53. talk about going nowhere fast. by tomstdenis · · Score: 0

    I kid, I kid.

    --- INSERT TrOlL HeRe---

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  54. OK, lets privatize the roads then too by maynard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, if you're not willing to pay tax dollars for rail infrastsructure, why also pay for roads and bridges? And while you're at it, why not dismantle the education system and courts as well? When private enterprise performs all of these civic functions, will "freedom" have been expanded or will we simply have seen a net transfer of power away from voters into private hands? Just asking. --M

    1. Re:OK, lets privatize the roads then too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're seeing the problem incorrectly. An education will be good if the parents give a damn about it.

      No matter how good a school system is, if the parents see it as daycare, their children will not become educated. If the parents in this country actually cared about making their children educated, a good education would be available.

      The problem in the US is that intelligence is seen as bad. It's partially the fault of the Christion Right. I actually heard a sermon based on a talk from Dr. Laura: "Would you rather your kids were smart or good?" It was implied that these qualities were independent.

      Who does the US see as its greatest people? Sports figures, celebrities, including the political varieties. All of these have little or nothing to do with intelligence. There hasn't been a well known scientist since Einstein. Since the 1950s, intelligence has slowly been seen as useless. Being smart doesn't make you money and money is everything.

      Teachers are seen as part of the underclass. They are paid poorly and, more recently, have been forced to give students grades they don't deserve. I wouldn't go into this profession today, being treated like dirt is not worth the pleasure of teaching children.

      It's not a quality of education issue. It's a societal issue.

  55. Nozomi 500 by Compact+Dick · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Nozomi 500 by BJH · · Score: 1

      Well, since I get to see them every day my jaw isn't dropping, but yes, that's a nice photo ;)

  56. That's not the reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Every post-1870 train is using boggies.

    What made the TGV survive its derailments are:
    1. it's designed so that the train sets, once the cars are attached one to the next, is very rigid, so if it goes out of the track, you have a long big dildo slipping through the country until it stops
    2. so far, it encountered no overpassing bridge during a derailment (the track is designed to overpass as much as possible, but sometimes it's not possible)

    The ICE at Eschede didn't have the luck of point 2.

    I really don't want to be in the first TGV to derail 1.5km before the entrance of a tunnel.

    OTOH, I love the damn thing. Too bad they are still at the big yellow Caterpillar stage near the A4! (and still at the political bickering stage for the Dijon-Mulhouse-Basel, damn, damn, damn)

    1. Re:That's not the reason by h0mer · · Score: 1

      Dijon-Mulhouse-Basel

      mmm... eating Milhouse with Dijon and basil...

      --


      I'm on top of my game like I'm standin' on Xbox.
  57. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The support structure, yes. Like a raised highway (in a city), but in the countryside it really doesn't change the possibility of a threat if you are at ground level in the middle of a field, or 10m above - there is a clear line of sight from a considerable distance either way. The fact that it's going faster than normal train would actually make it harder to hit, but I'm not saying that it can't be done.

  58. Time is on my side, yes it is by Angram · · Score: 1

    It's time that is the major issue. The US massive, so taking a train is no small matter. You can fly from New York City to Miami in 2 hours, but it's a 30 hour train ride (and NY to LA would be almost 3 days). For a business that moves people between the two cities, the simple numbers ensure that flying will be more profitable - for every round trip by train, you can make 15 with a plane.

    --

    GL
    1. Re:Time is on my side, yes it is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I took the train from San Jose to Los Angeles when I visited USA last spring. It took almost 12 hours, and was 5 hours delayed. I'm pretty sure I would be able to bike faster than the train moved (The train was pulled by a single diesel locomotive, by the way, instead of having an electric motor at every wheel set as modern trains do). I don't understand how two such big cities can have such a poor railroad in between, and make use of such old-fashioned car sets. Norway, having less than half the population of Los Angeles, and being much more sparsely populated than California, has a much better and faster railroad system, even though it sucks. (On the most important stretches, the trains move so fast they can without making people sea sick. Of course they could move faster if the tracks were straight, but then 90% of the railroad would have to be in tunnels, unlike in the comparatively flat California).

    2. Re:Time is on my side, yes it is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You can fly from New York City to Miami in 2 hours, but it's a 30 hour train ride (and NY to LA would be almost 3 days).

      With current existing fast trains, it would be a 7 hours ride. Still noticeable, but you don't have to wait like in the airport (so you are winning one hour or more), and don't need to the outside-of-town located airport. Next generation of fast trains would be running at 300 mph, it would be a 4.5 hours ride - the plane advantage would be upset. For shorter rides, it's already the case (i.e. something like: Paris-London).

    3. Re:Time is on my side, yes it is by arkanes · · Score: 1

      If we had trains that went 300mph it'd be alot more reasonable... but to get anything like large scale commuter rail in the US, we'd need to to change a LOT of things. And the railroad industry in the US is about as stodgy and resistant to change as you can possibly get.

    4. Re:Time is on my side, yes it is by Becquerel · · Score: 1
      For passengers train travel only makes sense over the time scale of 10mins to 3hours. Anything less makes more sense by bus and anything more might aswell be flown. In a country the scale of the US that limits trains to daily commuter journeys to the burbs and fast intercity links between not too distant cities. Not many will ever take the train NY->LA.

      Freight is a different matter however. Especially if the cargo isn't perishable, transportation by plane over long distance makes no sense. It doesn't matter if it takes 3hrs or 3days to ship plastic widgets from x to y.

      --
      My spelling isn't bad, I'm evolving the language
  59. I call that a /.-induced broken link by Animaether · · Score: 1
  60. Actually you'd be amazed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The record commercial speed for a train is Calais-Marseille (1027km) in a little less than 3h 29min.

    There's an unbelievable amount of bridges and tunnels on the Lyon-Marseille leg of the line.

    And an amazing piece of software which avoids a "double blast" with trains crossing at tunnel entries.

    IIRC, the current "TGV Reseau" (2nd gen, bulk of rolling stock) cars can withstand tunnels at a routine 400km/h.

  61. 500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by wowbagger · · Score: 4, Informative

    500 Hz at 900 MHz is less than 1 ppm.

    The TCXOs (temperature compensated crystal oscillators ("X" being the industry standard abbreviation for crystal - get over it)) used in moble equipment are usually rated about .5 ppm, so a 500 Hz shift isn't that much.

    The more important aspect is the timing skew - GSM and CDMA require the mobile and the base station to have a VERY accurate idea of the time of flight delay between them, so as to keep the transmissions in their allocated time slots (IIRC GSM requires something like a 5 microsecond accuracy, but not being at work yet I can't get the specs right now.)

    Moving that fast means the timing skew is going to shift significantly between bursts.

    However, most high speed trains are moving to having a cell on the train itself, which then links to the landline system via a dedicated link from train to land.

  62. Re:too fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If that was likely to happen, why hasn't "some terrorist group" blown up some electrical substations, or destroyed long distance fiber optic regneration sites? Those places are extremely vulnerable, yet noone hits them. Seems a bit curious, but that's another conspiracy theory. :)

  63. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    reverses the electromagnets and the train stops in a very short distance

    Yes that would be a pretty good Denial of Service too :D

    SPLAT.

    CRUNCH.

    Imagine the G forces :D

    Its like what I do to password lock out protection, turn the failsafe and protection into a weapon.

    Failsafes can be dangerous too :D

    Its just there waiting for you to abuse. I prefer to call it Built in Assistance for hackers :D

  64. Speed of bullet by TheJaff · · Score: 1
    Wow.. that is about the same speed as a bullet fired from a (hi-speed) rifle. Hmm makes you wonder, what would happen if you try to shoot someone on the ground (from the roof of the train for example) after you've passed him.

    Or maybe im just a morbid, bored office worker :->

    --
    28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and 12 seconds... that is when the world will end.
    1. Re:Speed of bullet by thbigr · · Score: 3, Informative

      580 Km/h = 260 MPH I little .22 goes about 750 MPH a 9mm goes about 1000 MPH. Don't ask me why they call it a bullit train.

      --
      Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
    2. Re:Speed of bullet by IANAAC · · Score: 1
      Hmm makes you wonder, what would happen if you try to shoot someone on the ground (from the roof of the train for example) after you've passed him.

      That's a visual I just didn't need.
    3. Re:Speed of bullet by alexburke · · Score: 1

      580 Km/h = 260 MPH

      580 / 1.629 = 356 MPH

    4. Re:Speed of bullet by thbigr · · Score: 1

      Hey thanks, I was doing it at "high speed" and transposed the 3 to a 2. Dislexia is fun!

      --
      Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
  65. A couple of downsides by Inflatable+Hippo · · Score: 1

    > We haven't seen nothing yet. It seems the more
    > juice, the higher the speed. I for one hope to see
    > mass production of Maglev trains. They will be
    > vastly superior to planes at less cost.

    That's true technically, but there is the track construction and upkeep to factor in.

    Also it's highly vulnerable to acts of unsophisticated vandalism/terrorism. Think of the damage a well placed brick or dead gopher could achieve at those speeds.

  66. American individualism does not favor trains by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    (rambling time)

    Americans like their freedom, and we are a society geared on personal freedom. This is part of the individualism that dominates American society and what helped it become the largest economy. Its a mode of thought that does not lend itself to trains except in areas of major population concentrations (iow cities).

    Another important comparison, look at how much open land exist in the United States. Outside of the Northeast most cities are not close together. Next, as my workplace is very representative of, most of us don't live within a few miles of each other, let alone near any mass transit.

    Finally, time is money. It is common to make value comparisons with trip time. Time also relates to convienence. Which is more valuable? Convienence, time, or money? I would say the first to many people. Compare going to the relatives, they are 2 hours by plane or 8 by car? I know many people who will drive! Why? Simple, they have their car, its convienent, they also have their freedom because of that car. The other end of convienence is our unwillingness to impose on others in certain ways. Using the previous example many won't ask for their relatives to pick them up at the airport. Some who do fly would use a rental before doing otherwise. That thought pattern works against mass transit a lot.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:American individualism does not favor trains by notbob · · Score: 0

      It'd be nice if I could fly to a location and get a car I'd be happy with as a rental for a good price... oh wait I can, just can't get a sports car for a reasonable price or dead on perfect what I drive right now but they are conveinent.

      I totally agree on the freedom issue, I drive from Cincinnati to Tampa which is between 12 ~ 15 hours instead of flying in 2 hours just because I want my car with me and I enjoy the drive (crazy I know, but it's great to zone out to just the open road for no reason at all).

      I've driven to maryland to buy a car before, insanely long trip but oh well it was fun.

    2. Re:American individualism does not favor trains by DarkVader · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sounds about right.

      I recently went to New Orleans on vacation (from Knoxville, TN). I looked at the cost of flying vs. driving.

      The flight from Knoxville would have cost nearly $400 (2 people) and the trip would have taken about 6 hours (counting "security" bullshit).

      If I drove to Nashville first (cheaper direct flight on Southwest) the trip would only have cost about $300 (including gas and airport parking) and would have taken about 7 hours counting "security" bullshit.

      The drive was about 10 hours, in a nice comfy SUV, not airline cattle call seating, no security bullshit, and cost only about $100, including valet parking at the hotel.

      Nedless to say, I didn't fly.

      The equation might have been different in the old days (when I could show up at the airport 10 minutes before a flight) but until people get over their insane fear of terrorists, I'm not flying unless I absolutely have to. I avoid shoppping at Wal-Mart because I don't like being treated like a shoplifter, and I avoid flying because I don't like being treated like a hijacker.

      To return this to a bit of relevance, I'll add that I also investigated taking Amtrak. I would have had to drive to Memphis (6 hours) and then spent another 9 hours on the train. Sounds great, where can I sign up?

      Now, if there was a reasonably priced, high speed rail link that would get me from Knoxville to NOLA, I'd likely have taken it. (I'm thinking the price point I'd have put up with would be about $200 for a 200+mph train - and the route I think would make the most sense would be Knoxville-Atlanta-NOLA.)

      But there hasn't been any passenger train service in Knoxville in many years.

  67. 968,333 furlongs per fortnight by HomerJayS · · Score: 1

    For those of us who had sadistic science/physics teachers in HS who denied the use of calculators.

  68. We are. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A high speed west coast train has been announced that is suppose to run from L.A. to Seattle. Article on it

    Another one from LA to Los Vegas may also be built.

    I once met a lady while on the Amtrak who got on the train in Georgia and had already been on the train for 5 days when I met her in Bakersfield. After 17 hours, As I was getting of at my destination, I asked her how long until she reached hers. She figured she had 2 more days ahead of her. She was going to Seattle. 8 DAYS TOTAL! Talk about torture. IMHO, Current passenger train service in the US isn't just SLOW... it's Glacial.

  69. Well... by mog007 · · Score: 1

    I want something more workable than kph, can I get a conversion to ferraris or porches?

    1. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      can i get a conversion to ferraris or porches?

      That depends--front porches or back porches? Or the porch nearest your porsche?

    2. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, let's say... it's waaay faster than a Porsche... even faster than a Ferrari or Lamborghini! :)

  70. The nicest thing... by S1mon_Jester · · Score: 1

    carry on luggage should be MUCH easier.

  71. Sure it's fast in trials by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

    Sure it's fast in trials, but once they use pushers to fill it to the gills with people, the train tops out at about 74 kph.

  72. Hopefully Canada will get encouraged by mnmn · · Score: 1

    ... to install that train between Toronto and Montreal. I for one dont believe Quebec's french heritage will be hurt by letting the English in every weekend.

    They've been debating installing a train that will make travel between Toronto and Montreal 1 hour in duration.

    I've been fascinated by Quebec and have been trying to learn french, but I can only visit on weekends and have to spend a night in the expensive motels there. Canada could become smaller that way, and trade can increase... if they can put their differences aside.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    1. Re:Hopefully Canada will get encouraged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the same thing between Edmonton and Calgary?

      Going to Calgary to catch any planes to go anywahere si an absolute pain.

      What do I want?
      Get there in 45 minutes..

      When do I want it?
      Now

  73. So, are they going to name it Blaine? by DeusExLibris · · Score: 1

    For those that don't get the reference, Stephen King has a sentient, maniacal train with a bizarre fascination with riddles named "Blaine the Mono" in his Dark Tower series. Blaine is supersonic and makes an 8000 mile trip in about 8 hours.

  74. ok ... may be if i move to japan .... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 0

    I will be able to manage to get to work on time ... : - )

    --
    WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
  75. Come on, America by ReadParse · · Score: 1, Troll

    I've never gotten this Japan train thing. Don't get me wrong. Happy to see how the Japanese recovered from WWII and became the powerhouse that they are in many ways. A nice stable government, an economy similar to ours, great scientific advances.

    (America haters will reply something like "how is being like America a good thing? Bush sucks" -- or something. Disregard those morons).

    Anyway, as much respect as I have for Japan, trains are our thing. Why is America not the one always building the fastest train in the world? Why isn't the rest of the world chasing us? And why don't we care about having the world's tallest building anymore? Especially now that we have some rebuilding to do in NY, I can't think of a single decent reason to not make it the tallest building in the world.

    And while I'm on a Superman theme, I might as well complete it. We should also have the fastest speeding bullet. Come on ammo manufacturers. Get your act together :)

    RP

    1. Re:Come on, America by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Here in America we don't have high speed trains because we have super-high-tech high speed trains that fly called jetliners. WOW!

      There is somewhat of a market for regional intercity travel, especially in dense corridors such as the northeast. But unfortunately Amtrak is forced to pay for lines that don't make a profit.

      An advantage of passenger rail that I can see is comfort (diner cars, etc.) and being able to view scenery. But that isn't Amtrak, Amtrak wants to be an airline on wheels, which is silly IMO.

    2. Re:Come on, America by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Because Americans just want to drive big SUVs and live in the suburbs. They don't care about trains or tall buildings because they don't want to use them. Trains and tall buildings require people to be close together, during travel and work. Tall buildings require people to live in dense urban environments. These are anathema to Americans who crave giant SUVs with tv screens inside to keep them from having to interact with each other, and huge McMansions in the suburbs which keep them from having to live near each other.

      Not only that, but with America's legal environment, it's pretty much impossible to get any kind of big project off the ground. Notice how all the really huge projects (Empire State Building, Hoover Dam, etc.) were done in the first half of the 20th century, when America wasn't the litigious wasteland it is now.

      I think it's time for Americans to step aside and admit that we're simply not capable of doing anything great anymore, and let someone else take the spotlight.

    3. Re:Come on, America by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I thought trains were a British invention - not that Richard Branson's attempt at a railway company is anything to boast about.

  76. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep. That is a sad thing. I pity you americans living in constant fear of your lives. I've never worried once about being a victim of terrorism, and we've had to put up with it in the UK far longer than you have.

  77. Prohibitively expensive? by tcoady · · Score: 2, Informative
    However, we wouldn't see real trains for a while now since the cost is prohibitively expensive at this time. However, they expect that the cost would come down over the next 20 years.
    Not strictly true, according to the builders of the Pudong-Shanghai link, the costs can already be lower than conventional high speed trains, and the maintenance costs are alot lower. See here and here
    1. Re:Prohibitively expensive? by tcoady · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you need to click ahead one or two slides from the presentation to see the maintenance and per seat costs compared with ICE.

  78. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

    Cell hand-off is also a problem, as it can take a relatively long time to negotiate a transfer between cells.

  79. Real passengers by leoboiko · · Score: 3, Funny
    The new Maglev high speed had real passengers on board this time.

    From the article:
    The three-car maglev train reached a top speed of 581 kph with technicians on board[...]

    You see, they haven't tested it with real people, only with technicians.
    --
    Prescriptive grammar:linguistics :: alchemy:chemistry. Stop being a nazi and learn some science.
    1. Re:Real passengers by rylin · · Score: 1

      Technicians are people too, you insensitive clod!

    2. Re:Real passengers by KH · · Score: 1

      That's the same thing as having the engineer who built a bridge to cross the bridge first. They'd make it darn sure that the thing is safe for a ride.

    3. Re:Real passengers by Megawatt-hour · · Score: 1

      Well, testing with technicians is at least a step beyond testing with security guards, whom we all know are utterly expendable.

  80. I love DC metro, but its not perfect by mekkab · · Score: 1

    I think the DC metro is pretty (almost as nice as NYC's L train, far nicer than anything else!), and fairly well run (better than NYC's L train, which mysteriously gets CANCELLED. and thats the best line of NY!).

    But many people who work in the DC metro area now live in FREDERICK- that's right, 270 south bound starts getting clogged at 7-8am... And many are just trying to get to Shady Grove metro. Plenty have moved inbetween Germantown and Frederick.

    DC metro is also pretty limited in terms of stops. (though not as limited as Pyongyang's subway (scroll down!) If you live in either Glover Park, or Georgetown (or somewhere in between) you have to take a bus. I don't know the state of cyclists in DC... it seems like a good idea to fill in the gaps.

    Thankfully, the Metro is expanding its hours later and later into the night.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  81. Japan = tiny, little country by BeProf · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the leading nation in high-speed rail development is so small? Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool, just a bit odd.

    What's next? Rocket cars in Luxembourg? Vatican City International Airport?

    --
    You are attempting to read sigs. Cancel or Allow?
    1. Re:Japan = tiny, little country by vidarh · · Score: 2, Informative
      Why? High speed rail lends itself best to short to medium distances: On long distances, the speed advantage of planes make competition more difficult. On shorter trips takeoff and landing combined with typical long travel times through and from the large airport hubs eat up the speed advantage of planes, and make transportation where terminals can be built relatively unobtrusively in city centres much more desirable.

      Relatively low population density countries with long distances such as the US make it much tougher to economically justify high speed rail than markets where population density is extremely high and concentrated in a low number of key locations, distances are too short to be efficiently served by planes or short enough that planes don't have a speed advantage, and where space for large airport hubs near the city cores is non-existant, extremely expensive or difficult to justify for other reasons.

    2. Re:Japan = tiny, little country by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I disagree. The east coast may be a sprawling mess, but here in the West, almost all the population is concentrated in a small number of key locations: Denver, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, etc. There's almost no civilization between these places, and huge expanses of land. A high speed rail network would be ideal for getting around west of the Mississippi, if the cost were right.

      There's no speed advantage with planes unless you're completely crossing the country. After having to arrive two hours early, get your car searched, wait in line at the baggage check-in, wait in line for an hour at the security checkpoint, take off your shoes, get a full body cavity search, wait for a delayed plane, then get your luggage at the destination, any speed advantage from planes is gone. Plus, I'd gladly take an extra 3 or 4 hours travelling by train if it meant getting a large, comfortable seat, plenty of space for my long legs, and no painful middle ear pressure buildup (really horrible when you have a sinus infection) from the altitude changes.

  82. Everyone sing it with me.... by acidrain69 · · Score: 1

    Monorail!

    --
    -- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
  83. Mod parent underrated: schools by TamMan2000 · · Score: 1

    Realizing we have gone way OT... Some asshole who agrees with me, modded you down, that just isn't right... Your comment is certainly not overrated...

    *Most* of our properly educated go to private schools

    I think you got it a little backwards... I think *Most* privately educated students get a proper education, but I do not think that most of our properly educated students went private, in fact, I think most of them were publicly educated, but this does not mean that most publicly educated students are properly educated.

    I am from an extremely typical midwestern city, so typical that it is viewed as one of the nations best test markets and phrases about how representative of the heartland we are have been coined. That town is Peoria, Ill...
    We had 4 public high schools, 1 large private HS (about the same size as 1 of our public HSs), and a few small private high schools. In my class, and my little brother's (don't know much about other years...) there were 4 times as many national merit scholars from my school alone as there were in all of the private schools, and about as many again spread out over the other 3 high schools.

    All of my roommates (10 over my 4 years) at college (I went to a top 10 engineering school) were publicly educated...

    I would also like to encourage you to think about this: Public or private, small classes or large, these all matter very little. By far the most important variable is the parents, and how much they get involved and care. Parents of children in private school are more likely to care, evidence of this is the fact that they pay for something they perceive to be better than what they could get for free, this is the central reason that most privately educated students do well, and it has very little to do with the school itself. Further evidence for this claim can be found by looking at public schools in college towns and wealthy suburbs, where the parents of the children in the schools are more likely to be highly educated and value education.

    --
    "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
  84. The myth of america being too spread out by merciless · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I live in Boston and I take the train (amtrak acela) all the time to NYC. I do not own a car. The eastern corridor (DC-NYC-Boston) is the only profitable route that Amtrak runs. In roughly 450 miles (shorter than the length of California by about 250 miles) the 5 major metropolitan areas (Boston, New York, Philly, Baltimore and DC. There's also minor mets such as New Haven, Providence and Trenton) represents about 60 million people. The density is roughly comparable to that of England. The current system, even though profitable, has SERIOUS limitation in its currently incarnation - it has to abide to Metro North's speed limit of 60MPH when it's in Metro North territory, for example. This is done on a train that's designed to cruise at 150MPH. Bottom line - you CAN run a profitable maglev operation in US.

    1. Re:The myth of america being too spread out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maglev... profitable???? BWahahahaha... maybe you can run a profitable passenger railroad, but not maglev. Maglev is one of the most cost inefficient technologies out there.

    2. Re:The myth of america being too spread out by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      What about the 50% of americans that live between the coasts? We're definitely spread out, except here in Chicago, which has good commuter rail service.

      Are you seriously suggesting that a train could be profitable between Chicago and the coasts? Okay, you can include Denver and Cleveland as stops, but unless it was a fast train, nobody would come. Who wants an 20 hour ride to Grandma's, when I can fly for $150? And how do I get to Boulder once I get to Denver onthe train?

      The U.S., ingeneral, *is* too spread out for inter-city trains. It's just not too spread out where you live.

  85. Oh man do I agree. by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 1

    I understand the fact that the US as a whole will find it difficult to have a real high speed train system. However, in metropolitan areas, I fail to see what the problem is. I commute to NYC, and they are constantly building HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lanes, and expanding existing roads. The LIRR runs through long island, and its tracks for the most part are straight as an arrow- IE the infrastructure itself is not a limitation. To me it is mind boggling that communities in suffolk county (farther away from the city, most of which is outside most people's commuting tolerances from Manhattan) are not aggressively pushing this. This would drive up everyone's property values, as the commute to the city is a major discount factor for most Long Island Communities, and a map of property values on LI is pretty much a gradient with the highest being in manhattan and then just gradually decreasing the farther you get away.

    Secondly, why the government isnt jumping on this also amazes me. Traffic costs alot of money. Additional wear and tear on roads, lost productivity, additional road construction, pollution, etc. My well being is much greater even though I traded in a 20 minute stressful car commute for an hour and 45 minute train trek into manhattan. GM wont be hurt too bad if we all hop on the train, you will still need a car to get to the station.

    The fact that the railroad has a monopoly I feel is one of the roots of the problem. They have little incentive to speed up the lines. As it is, they just barely profit. How this is so, when their base infrastructure is quite old- and should already be paid for- also astounds me. I pay $226 a month for an hour ride into the city. They have 10 full cars of people on this single train paying the same thing... how do they not make money?! Even though the ticket takers make 40-50k a year or so just to collect tickets, they should still be able to have a nice take at the end of the year. The railroad misses so many opportunities for increased revenue or at least improving its customer's ride its ridiculous. Power hookups for laptops, and on train internet access stand out in my mind as the most glaringly obvious.

    The problem may not be only the railroad's. I recall reading that Amtrack's relatively new 'high speed' trains were capable of going 120mph, but due to federal regulations of some sort, were limited to 80mph.

    I too, just dont get it. The technology is there to triple or even double the speed of existing trains, which would redefine many communities. I would personally be willing to name dictator for life someone that could cut my commute in half. Somehow though, I think in 20 or even 30 years, Ill still be chugging along at 60mph, and maybe the cars will be a little newer, but im pretty sure I wont be sitting there telling my grandkids "you know, back in my day we didnt have trains that..."

    1. Re:Oh man do I agree. by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Actually railroads are a very profitable industry and railroads are constantly expanding, especially in the midwest. It makes more sense to move goods by rail than people.

    2. Re:Oh man do I agree. by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 1

      LIRR hardly makes money, and is subsidized by the government. Amtrack needed a bailout not too long ago. I was speaking of commuter rail lines, not freight haulers.

      And even if most railroads are doing quite well, then why dont we have faster trains?

    3. Re:Oh man do I agree. by Rotten168 · · Score: 1

      Well freight rail is much different than passenger rail. For one thing, freight handles weight like you wouldn't believe... I'm not sure you'd want a freight train carrying God knows what zooming by your neighborhood at 300 MPH. For one thing it would sound like an earthquake, and local communities are already annoyed with freight railroads as it is (many localities passed ordinances that prohibited trains from blowing their safety whistles [yeah it's dumb]).

  86. Should be kmph not kph! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Km is the proper metric abbreviation for Kilometre (or Kilometer)

  87. What a joke by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1
    What a friggin joke. Years and years and years to develop a totally radically different technology, only to attain a paltry 581 km/h, a mere 66 km/h above perfectly conventionnal souped-up 200 year-old technogy (the steam locomotive was invented 200 years ago).

    Surface Maglev has no future; the speed increase over conventionnal rail IS NOT WORTH IT for the added expense in relation to the time gained.

    Maglev could have some chances in an evacuated tunnel, but the horrenduous infrastructure costs will see that it will not see the light of day...

    1. Re:What a joke by shimpei · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't give too much credit for that record. If you RTFL, you will learn that TGV's revenue service, which is what actually matters, will only go up to about 360km/h.

    2. Re:What a joke by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1
      The reason why the TGV goes only up to 320 km/h in revenue service is that the extra energy expenditure is not worth the expense in return for the time gain.

      Furthermore, the maglev is utterly incompatible with the existing railroad network, whereas the TGV can leave the high-speed line and reach it's final destination at lower speed on the conventionnal rail network, thus greatly expanding the usefulness of the rail network.

      30 years ago, France took a hard look at high-speed rail -versus- air-cusion trains and wisely chose to go the conventional way.

  88. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by g0at · · Score: 1

    However, most high speed trains are moving to having a cell on the train itself, which then links to the landline system via a dedicated link from train to land.

    And... what form does that dedicated link take? A big long cable strewn beneath the train running between Osaka and Tokyo? :)

    If not, doesn't it come back to the same issues raised by the original poster?

    -ben

  89. Which cubit? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    Hmm.. looks like you define a cubit to be 18 inches... according to units.dat:
    irishcubit = 18 irishinch
    romancubit = 18 romaninch # units.
    egyptianroyalcubit = 20.63 in # plus or minus .2 in
    egyptianshortcubit = 6 egyptianpalm
    greekcubit = 1.5 greekfoot # said to be 3|5 of a 20.75 in cubit.
    homericcubit = 20 greekfingers # Elbow to end of knuckles.
    shortgreekcubit = 18 greekfingers # Elbow to start of fingers.
    olympiccubit = 25 remendigit # These olympic measures were not as
    northerncubit = 26.6 in # plus/minus .2 in
    sumeriancubit = 495 mm
    assyriancubit = 21.6 in
    persianroyalcubit = 7 assyrianpalm
    hashimicubit = 25.56 in # Standard of linear measure used in Persian dominions of the Arabic empire 7-8th cent. Is equal to two French feet.
    blackcubit = 21.28 in
    biblicalcubit = 21.8 in
    hebrewcubit = 17.58 in
    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:Which cubit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      17.58 in?

      Those Hebes - they'll always sell you short measure.

  90. The texas oil overlords in White House & Congr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who call themselves 'fiscal conservatives' yet are spending at a record clip, determined to kill off even the limited funding that Amtrak is getting, despite the huge subsidies to air and highway industries, will ensure this never reaches american soil.

  91. Meanwhile, in the UK... by gefafwysp · · Score: 1

    ... a train recently set a British speed record of 56.1 km/h

  92. Great but not practical, though. by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

    While it's impressive that the Japanese have reached an incredible 581 km/h on their maglev trains, it's not a practical design for one reason: their maglev requires cryogenic cooling for the magnets to run in superconducting mode so the train can move. Installing cryrogenic cooling systems drastically increases the cost of the train, not to mention adding a good hunk of deadweight that could otherwise be used for carrying passengers and/or cargo.

    A better solution is to use the permanent magnet system that was developed at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory a few years ago. Since the LLNL system doesn't need cryrogenically-cooled magnets, that allows for lower train weight, which means more passengers and/or cargo carried. Also, the construction cost per kilometer is quite a bit lower, too. Sure, the LLNL system limits the train to around 500 km/h (310 mph) but that's still way faster than any steel-wheel train in revenue service (that 320 mph test run on the French TGV system some years ago is totally impractical in everyday service).

  93. That's 383 1/8 Miles per Hour by A55M0NKEY · · Score: 1

    If you're like me and have almost no intuitive notion about how big metric measurements are.

    --

    Eat at Joe's.

  94. maglevs cannot derail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's just silly. Why is it that a maglev cannot derail? You're saying that if a maglev system were run for 1,000 years the cars could never leave the track?

    If there is a problem with the track (a physical disruption) that causes the distance between the two tracks to be different than it is supposed to be, you can be sure that the cars will fall off in short order.

    If all things are equal (maglev tracks anchored in the same way as rails, etc.), there is no reason a maglev would be less likely to derail. However, we know maglev tracks are rarely anchored like steel rails are. Instead they are typically elevated and anchored in a much more elaborate fashion. If we are concerned about derailments, then there is no reason we couldn't just apply those techniques to steel rails.

    Do that, and make sure you have good integrity monitoring (be sure maglev does too) and preventative maintenance on the wheels and you'll find that a regular train has a near zero chance of derailing too. Definitely low enough to not make the extra expense to reduce it further questionable.

    Also, I am think the #1 cause of train incidents isn't derailments, but foreign objects on the tracks. Specifically vehicles at crossings.

    1. Re:maglevs cannot derail? by Animaether · · Score: 1

      ALthough objects on the track can be nasty, in general, they cause whoever was in that object (that object most often being a car) to generally be.. well.. dead.. and the machinist of the train scared shitless or dead as well.

      Let me make that -major- incidents, and then derailments are the #1 issue.

      And the reason maglevs can't derail is because in most designs either the track wraps around the train, or the train wraps around the track. You'd need a SERIOUS breach of structural integrity before that causes a derailment. I'm thinking.. blow up a segment, so the train goes flying off into the air ;)
      But that would happen with a regular train as well. However, a regular train could easily be derailed simply due to a bent piece of track. Maglev track segments don't bend that way, but even if they did, the train would stay on it (or it would stay on the train).

      Let's put it this way.. there's a greater chance of the segment of track to topple over, with the train still on it ( so it didn't derail ;) ), than that a maglev would actually derail.

  95. LA to SF by royalblue_tom · · Score: 1

    There's a project being evaluated to put a high speed train in on the west coast.

  96. Actually, it should be km/h or kmh-1 by gonzo_bozo · · Score: 1

    You are right for the abbreviation of kilometer but "per" must not be abbreviated as "p". Right: km/h or kmh-1 or "kilometers per hour" Wrong: kph or kmph

    1. Re:Actually, it should be km/h or kmh-1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is l33t-sp34k acceptable notation? Which is preferred, //\/\/|-|, or //\/\|-|-|?

  97. In other news... by bgeer · · Score: 1

    In other news, Amtrak was awarded the Guiness World Record(TM) for "Most unsanitary transportation system", edging out Bangladeshi ferry boats by a slim margin of three wads of gum and a sick rat.

  98. MPH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1 h 1 k
    ----- X ----------- = 361.0334 mph = 361 mph
    581 k 0.6214 mile

  99. Impressive? How's that? by fygment · · Score: 1

    It is impressive only in that it is a maglev. Frankly, it is only ~66 km/h faster than the TGV's old record which uses conventional technology ... and with improvements garnered over the years it's quite possible the TGV could match that maglevs speed (problem is TGV no longer has clear track to give it a try since it is commercially operational). An outline is available here and here.

    It would be interesting to see a cost comparison of high speed conventional to maglev track. Using Occam's razor, why bother with maglev if conventional can yield equivalent performance? Not only does maglev require a unique track, it may require dismantling of old track and infrastructure to provide replacement service. For what end? A few minutes faster between stations?

    And then one could ask: if you need speeds of +500 km/h to get somewhere in a reasonable time, why not just take a plane?

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  100. If its running late already by thumbtack · · Score: 1

    it doesn't matter how doggone fast it goes...until they can work out how to get people on board on time, by departure time then they will always run late...

    1. Re:If its running late already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Japan, if you're not onboard the train by the time it's supposed to depart, they won't wait for you. You'll have to wait for the next one. Even if you miss it by 1 minute.

  101. Speed is not the only impressive feature by Hamster+Lover · · Score: 1

    of Japan's train system.

    According to friends that have been to Japan the trains are NEVER late and most lines have an accumlated schedule discrepancy of less than one minute over an entire year.

    Very impressive.

    1. Re:Speed is not the only impressive feature by Anonymous+Squonk · · Score: 1

      This is most certainly not true. My train is delayed at least three times a month due to suicide jumpers, and that number is much higher for the more highly traveled lines in Tokyo like the Chuo-line.

  102. what force will it hit the track with? by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

    So if the power goes out and it hits the track at that speed,
    with what force is it hitting and how are you so sure that
    this won't cause signficant damage to the track, perhaps
    ripping up a section? It would only take one or two for the train to start to look like an accordian.

    1. Re:what force will it hit the track with? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I understood it correctly the japanese version still uses tires because it has to accelerate to a specific speed at which the magnetic field forms and the train begins to levitate. So if the power goes out the train falls onto its tires.

      The german version only has runners. The magnets used for levitation are build into the train which is also equipped with batteries. (Batteries are charged automatic by generators.) So if there is a power outage the train still levitates for some time until it reaches a stopping point or drops onto the runners.

      The magnets for acceleration are build into the rail. So there is no way two trains could collidate. Each part of the railway only accelerates the train(s) in one direction.

    2. Re:what force will it hit the track with? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The design of the maglev's includes the possibility of total power loss... The train will set down on the track at speed and quickly stop (probably not comfortable if your standing up at the time :)

      When the train touches down it will drag to a stop quickly, but somewhat controlled, since the braking will be even on all cars..

  103. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by Michael+Crutcher · · Score: 1

    Don't know if this is applicable but don't cell phones work on airplanes (see 9/11) at a higher speed than described? Is the problem you've described mitigated by the slower change of angle due to the larger airplane/tower altitude difference?

  104. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by donutello · · Score: 1

    The more important aspect is the timing skew - GSM and CDMA require the mobile and the base station to have a VERY accurate idea of the time of flight delay between them, so as to keep the transmissions in their allocated time slots (IIRC GSM requires something like a 5 microsecond accuracy, but not being at work yet I can't get the specs right now.)

    IIRC that is only relevant to GSM which is TDMA. CDMA phones share the entire spectrum at the same time and there is no time division multiplexing.

    --
    Mmmm.. Donuts
  105. Re:Impressive? How's that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >why not just take a plane? ....to avoid long waits and anal probes!

  106. Innerstates? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Innerstates"? You mean, like, Kansas?

  107. Get yer facts straight by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

    A metre is exactly the decimal fraction 10^-7 of the distance along the meridian from the Equator to the North Pole.

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
    1. Re:Get yer facts straight by jnik · · Score: 1

      A metre is exactly the decimal fraction 10^-7 of the distance along the meridian from the Equator to the North Pole.
      No it isn't (and you forgot the "through Paris.") 1 metre is the distance light travels in 1/299792458 second.

    2. Re:Get yer facts straight by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      10^-7 of the distance along the meridian from the Equator to the North Pole (through Paris) is what the metre was derived from, that's what the guy was getting at. He said it was a random thing, which it isn't.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    3. Re:Get yer facts straight by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      That's how it was defined at the time. However there was a small error in measurement and as result the Earth is not quite 40,000km in circumference along one meridian.

  108. Craaaaab People by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taste like crab.
    Talk like people.
    Craaaab People.

  109. Let's not forget... by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1, Troll
    5. The auto makers bought up trolley and light rail companies in the sixties and promptly tore up the tracks to make way for their cars

    6. The auto industry lobbyists make sure that their congressmen insist that Amtrak pay for rolling stock, pay for the maintenance of the track and still make a profit whilst the Interstates that carry their products remain subsidised by Uncle Sam.

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
    1. Re:Let's not forget... by InOverMyFeet · · Score: 0
      Uncle Sam at work.....

      In fiscal year 1971, Congress appropriated $160 million (in 1997 dollars) to fund Amtrak's first year of operation. Since then, Amtrak has received over $13 billion from the U.S. government, including approximately $9.6 billion for operating subsidies and $2.3 billion for its Northeast Corridor Improvement Plan. In 1983, the federal government went on to relieve Amtrak of responsibility for another $1.1 billion in federal loan guarantees.

      --

      -- Probability does not dismiss possibility --

    2. Re:Let's not forget... by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      Nothing like totalling the amount of money spent over thirty years to inflate your figures. And the money spent on roads over the same period was......?

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    3. Re:Let's not forget... by InOverMyFeet · · Score: 0

      It was not my intention to show inflated figures but that the government does subsidise Amtrak. Your original post made it sound like the gov't didn't give anything. I have no idea how much money has been spent on roads over the same time period but a more interesting question would be how many people have traveled over the roads vs. how many have traveled over rail in that time period.

      --

      -- Probability does not dismiss possibility --

    4. Re:Let's not forget... by CComMack · · Score: 1

      Let's give you a nice starter figure. The highway system was funded by Uncle Sam to the tune of $30 billion last year. That's one year; wanna try multiplying by 30? How about tacking on what states and municipalities spend?

      It shouldn't surprise you at all that people follow the "free" infrastructure. ("Free" as in marginal cost == 0, of course TANSTAAFL.)

    5. Re:Let's not forget... by InOverMyFeet · · Score: 0
      You are still not considering the amount of people that travel roads vs. the amount by rail. And the fact that rail service is available only in a few areas.

      You think roads is a "free" infrastructure. Where do you think they get the money from? When you purchase your car tags and everytime you fill up your car with gas you're paying for those roads and the services to maintain them.

      Do you think the average American would be happy with the government funding the rail system at higher levels when the majority of Americans don't take the train? If millions of people want to cram into the New York area (or other similar area) where the most viable mode of transportation is by rail.....that's fine with me. Just don't expect others to foot the bill. I don't want to pay for your train ride no more than I want to pay to raise some crack whore's illegitimate child.

      --

      -- Probability does not dismiss possibility --

    6. Re:Let's not forget... by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      And when the roads fill to capacity and there's no railway to take the strain, will you still cling to the belief that contributing to a railway is not in your own interest?

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    7. Re:Let's not forget... by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      Firstly, I did not say that the government does not subsidise Amtrak. Secondly, in the more urban parts of the world, railways are rightly given the funding that they need because without them the neighbouring road network would grind to a halt. Look at the traffic chaos on the Bay Bridge from San Francisco to Oakland every time BART goes on strike, you'd be quicker riding a horse. The issue is not as simple as counting up how many people travel by what mode and allocating funds accordingly. All transport infrastructure os part of a bigger picture.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
  110. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  111. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by shawnce · · Score: 1

    The rails are can be used as a digital communication channel. Also you can tackle any speed related issues using a wireless technology that is not affected by it.

    So you have a local on board cell / wifi to keep common devices happy and a rail based or wireless link out of the train to the outside world.

    Not really that difficult of solution to solve given the tech we have to day.

  112. Best..looking..train..ever.. by ashitaka · · Score: 1
    --
    If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
  113. Magnetic trains are just a dream by glacote02 · · Score: 1

    It always has to be repeated all over again: there is no special advantage in using magnetic sustentation over classical rail/wheel contact. You get no better comfort since the magnetic fiels are very heavy; you get no lower resisting force since it is almost exclusively due to aerodynamics forces. It just "looks" sci-fi. Seing the incredibly high cost of the "railway", I firmly believe that magnetic trains will (or at least should) remain a sci-fi dream. Please recall that the french TGV (a classical train) was capable of 515,3km/h with 200 people onboard in ... 1989 ! The cost per kilometer just dooes not do it. Magnetic trains are hardly faster, have fewer seats, are extremly complicated, and cost so much more. So what ?

    1. Re:Magnetic trains are just a dream by thorgil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you know how hard it is to make a wheel, suspension system that can stand the enormous forces in 500 km/h.
      (vibration, small bumps etc.)

      The wheels are supposed to last for years running daily at that speed. (this is a big problem for high speed trains.)

      MAGLEV has "no" moving parts.
      eg. less material stress.. (safer and cheaper in the long run.)

      MAGLEV's only limit is the air drag.

      --
      Warning: This sig contains a small bug. ==> *
    2. Re:Magnetic trains are just a dream by glacote02 · · Score: 1

      I firmly disagree with your statement. The TGV did travel at 500km/h with 200 people onboard, and it was a standard one (although shorter) which still travels today (it is the TGV nr 325). It has a very effective pneumatic suspension system. Do not forget the Maglev will be *just as sensitive* to vibrations and small bumps. It is a falsehood to believe that the magnetic sustentation make it "fly", the electromagnetic is very strong and incompressible indeed at those high speeds. On the other hand you have a point on the "no moving parts" argument. But the only benefit of it is that these trains are less noisy at low speeds. This is why magnetic trains are considered for intra-urban underground near Taipeh where they will be relatively quiet. One last point: conventional railways capable of sustaining heavy trains at 300km/h cost about $150 000 per km. A Maglev track costs between 10 times to 100 times more. And a passenger in a TGV costs the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas per km (at 300 km/h). So I am eager to travel in a Maglev. But I still believe it is economically ineffective.

  114. CDMA by wowbagger · · Score: 1

    It depends upon whether the signal in question is DSSS or FHSS.

    Direct sequence spread spectrum involves multiplying the signal by a pseudorandom noise signal, and won't have the sync problems (though it will have other problems).

    Frequency hopping Spread Spectrum involves changing frequencies really fast - so the time sync is important.

  115. really ? by overlord · · Score: 1

    I don't think the french are going to take this very easy. In a month they are going to have the record again !

    OverLord

  116. Metric system by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

    The big thing about the metric system is that you have only one unit to measure a property in.
    Length goes in meters. From Petameters to picometers. And it's naturally in sync with the decimal notation, 0.2 will always mean 2 decisomethings. 3000 will mean 3 kilosomething.
    Then the US/imperial/CSG systems use a lot of units to measure one property, just look at lenght. You have to know how much inch go in a feet, how much feet in a yard, how much yards on a rod, how much rods in a mile. And then there are things like furlong, hand, fathom, league.
    And when taking the same properties in 2 or 3 dimensions, it goes into only to square foot/inch/mile/yard and cubic foor/inch/mile/yard, but also acres, US and imperial gallons, cords, pints, bushels, quarts, pecks and barrels.
    From my point of view I prefer 1 unit to the 18+ I have to remember in the US/imperial/CSG system.

    Because of using a decimal number system all this is very prone to getting long fractional decimal numbers and rounding errors. I know there are some non-decimal notations, like 3'7", to get around this in some cases.

    As for temperature, I do not have a problem with Fahrenheit over Celsius or Kelvin, because there is only one unit, and it's notation is decimal. Or there should be some odd unit for 1/540 or 93 Fahrenheit that I am not aware of. In some areas the SI notation would come in handy, like for example astronomical temperatures, or super-conductivity physics, but for everyday use I have no real preference. All you have to remember is that 32 Fahrenheit = 0 Celsius and 9 fahrenheit in 5 celsius. It's almost 1 Fahrenheit = 0.5 Celsius, maybe that's why my central heating system works in steps of 0.5 celsius, hmmmm....

    The odd one out is indeed time, maybe it survives to this day because there is a widely accepted non-decimal notation, like 4-12-2003 19:03:12, and day/month/year do not have a decimal, but fixed relationship anyway. Units like lenght, time and weight are much more arbitrairy.

    --
    RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    1. Re:Metric system by Golias · · Score: 1
      Then the US/imperial/CSG systems use a lot of units to measure one property, just look at lenght. You have to know how much inch go in a feet, how much feet in a yard, how much yards on a rod

      Ooo... I was mostly with you up until there. By including vastly unused measurements like "rod" and "hand", you reveal yourself as trying to make English measurements sound more complex than they really are.

      As a programmer, it certainly seems easier, at first glance, to know that measurement of length will be based on the meter. When you list a person's height in feet, you need to include another field for inches... but then, when we speak of people's height, the flaw in this argument is exposed. Most customers of a software product which displays a persons height does not want it to say "1.87 m." They want height to be "187 cm." How do you know whether to use m or cm? By the context of what you are measuring. Often, people will accept "67.5 inches" as happilly as "5 feet, 7.5 inches", so now the systems come close to being equally simple: Know the context of what you are measuring, and use the correct unit for that context. Likewise, measuring distance in meters is fine if you are speaking of a sprint race (the 100 meter dash), but if you expressed the distance from Torronto to Montreal in meters, you would be regarded as kind of crazy. Likewise, an American football field is 100 yards from one end-zone to the other, and we measure the distance between cities in miles. It's not harder, it's just different than what you use.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    2. Re:Metric system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Most customers of a software product which displays a persons height does not want it to say "1.87 m"

      If you lived in a metric country, the standard would be "1.87 m", pronounced as "1 meter 87".

    3. Re:Metric system by nsushkin · · Score: 1
      4-12-2003 19:03:12

      That's 2003-04-12T19:03:12-05:00 in ISO 8601

    4. Re:Metric system by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      Well as I mainly use the metric system, My D&D third edition player manual uses those. Maybe it just want's to sound 'antique' and I took the wrong conclusions. It uses those words without explaining so I assumed it's writers assumed that the reader knew what those units were. I didn't.
      Still leave the other units, and the fact that these do get taken in to account in US/metric conversion tables I find on the net.
      As another poster pointed out, a persons height is indeed expressed as 1.87 m. Even then you could easily understand that this is the same as 187 cm, 18.7 dm, 1870 mm, 0.00187 km
      In your counter example 67.5 inches is not the same as 6 feet 7.5 inches or 0.000675 miles, 0.00675 yards, etc.
      Now you say, o.k. we do not need all these conversions, because of context. Then I tell you, for metric you do not need to know the context, which in itself makes it simpler. Secondly you use 2 different units, feet and inches in your example even though the context is clear.
      And it's easy to add precision, no extra unit required.
      How long is this wall, for example?
      About 8 yards, 7 yards, 2 feet, 4.5 inch to be precise
      About 7 meter, 7.125 meter to be precise
      The reverse is also true, I automatically see that a wall of 7.125 m is about 7 meter, while with a wall of 7 yards, 2 feet, 4.5 inch I have to know the conversions. Using a decimal number, 2 feet seems "low" and I would expect it to get rounded down to 0 in an approximation.
      Personally I have the most experience with CSG units in electromagnetism. Just try calculating things given in statvolt, dyne, esu/cm2, feet/sec, erg.
      Working from memory:
      "A square loop of 5x5 inch is moving at a speed of 10 feet/sec perpendicular away from a wire with a cross section of 16 mm2, in which runs a current of 6 esu/sec." Then calculate something like the electric field in esu/cm2.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  117. Ha ha by imaginate · · Score: 1

    That was so funny.

    BTW, which is the archaic system of measurment? SI?

  118. Re:Sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm an american and I have no fears about terrorism.. Of course, i'm in Kansas.. not in New York

  119. D'oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Beware the rear admiral !!

  120. Too bad more Americans don't ride motorcycles by gumpish · · Score: 1

    Want to alleviate traffic and save money without sacrificing the freedom and fun of your own vehicle?

    Get a motorcycle!

    Cheap liability insurance, great gas mileage, and in California you can legally split the lanes in gridlock traffic.

    Sure, it's no good when there's white stuff on the ground, but no one said you have to sell your car/truck/suv.

  121. Re:Impressive? How's that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you really want to be going 300+ mph on RAILS! I sure wouldn't.

  122. Imagine the sound... by PixelThis · · Score: 1

    that a train moving that fast would make as it goes by. Now imagine being too close to the track and getting sucked into it's wake. Excitement all around

  123. A Mag-Lev train leaves Japan at 1:00 PM. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
    travelling at 581 Km, heading West. Heading East, a conventional train leaves Chicago at 1:40 PM travelling at 97 MPH. Taking imperial versus metric measurment and the international date-line into account, and assuming that both trains can travel safely across the Atlantic. . , at what time will the two trains pass?

    Sorry. And I have mod points, too. It seems I've got a back-log of 'irresponsible' to get out this week.


    -FL

  124. Albany to Boston? by squarooticus · · Score: 1

    Why don't you drive? It's a 2-1/2 hour trip at most: I-90 west of I-84/Sturbridge is basically empty all the time, and as long as you're not trying to get into either end around 8 am, you shouldn't hit a lot of traffic.

    --
    [ home ]
    1. Re:Albany to Boston? by rattler14 · · Score: 1

      Student in boston = REEMED by insurance and parking. Plus, most of my travel back and forth is holiday season, meaning that it can sometimes take about 2 hours just to get to worcester. I agree though, driving at odd times, driving is by far, the best alternative in terms of all out speed and convenience. But in a city, not everyone can own a car (for sheer lack of affordable space).

      When I have access to a car, yeah, I have been able to make it in as little as 2.25 hours (speeding a little, sure).

      --
      my last sig was too controversial... now, a new and improved useless sig!
  125. You forget about the NCL conspiracy by DABANSHEE · · Score: 3, Informative

    GM, firestone & Philip's Petroleum created a front company that purchased over 400 suburban railway & tram systems in the US, then ran them down & replaced them with buses. They even got a $10,000 fine when the govt prosecuted them under the anti-trust statutes. Yep they destroyed infrastructure that today would cost millions or billions to replace for a then $10,000 penalty.

    If it wasn't for that fact, many US cities today could [b]potentially[/m] have suburban railway systems as extensive as Sydney's suburban & inter-urban Cityrail system

    Really AFAIC railways systems should be publically run & financed through consilidated revenue, just as roads are. Public transport will never reach it's full potential while it's expected to make a profit (or break even), while there's no equilivent expectation in regards roads

  126. I'm from America... by JRHelgeson · · Score: 1

    Let's see: 581 kph, thats like what, 35 miles-per-hour?

    --
    Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
  127. Oh Yay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans are so great! blah blah blah blah.

    Not only are we driving on fast trains, we are also driving on to extinction.

    Enjoy!

    Idiots.

  128. obligatory swingers quote by buus · · Score: 1

    "Vegas baby, Vegas!!!" You could be there and be down $500 by 10 PM. I'm not sure this is progress....

  129. rail should be directly tax financed by DABANSHEE · · Score: 1

    like roads

    Problem solved

  130. why Japan and not here by SethJohnson · · Score: 1


    You know, it's a little absurd that a country as small in size of Japan would continue to advance high-speed rail transportation to such extreme levels. It's not even a particularly well-suited geography. The rails for such trains must run without tight turns or changes in elevation while the country is extremely mountainous.

    Here in Texas, about 10 years ago there was a proposal in the government to implement a high speed rail system that would connect Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio. Southwest Airlines forcefully lobbied against it and it was succesful at defeating the initiative. We would have been an ideal setting for such a forward-thinking transportation system. Had the rail system been better developed before 9-11, we wouldn't be in such a bind for travel that we're in now. Not to mention how it would help lower our consumption / dependence on foreign oil.
  131. That's km/h, not KPH by SysKoll · · Score: 1
    Hey timothy, speaking of metric, if you decide to use metric units, at least get them right! The unit symbol for kilometers/hour is km/h.

    What you wrote is meaningless. K is Kelvin, P is not a unit, H is Henry. KPH would be "kilo-Henry times whatever P would be".

    This is science, not feel-good-improvisation and fluff, for crying out loud. Look at a unit tutorial for details.

    Or better, avoid these pesky meters, grams and seconds entirely. Just stick to furlongs, fortnights and stones like a good American. :-)

    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

    1. Re:That's km/h, not KPH by fnj · · Score: 1

      The unit symbol for kilometers/hour is km/h... K is Kelvin, P is not a unit, H is Henry. KPH would be "kilo-Henry times whatever P would be"

      Exactly, but as an old geezer it does seem to me that the fad (sorry, solemn official standard) of abbreviation) has changed at some point. I seem to recall that back in my day all the multiplier prefixes above unity were capitalized, and all those below unity were lower case.

      Most especially, Kilo was capitalized - and indeed, kilobytes per second is still properly written Kbps, not kbps, isn't it?

      These days it would appear that all the above-unity multiplier prefixes higher than kilo are still capitalized, while kilo, hecto, and deka are not. All the below-unity ones are still lower case.

      Is this true, and if so, why on earth was this change made? It is so offensive to common sense of order.

      Maybe kilo is lower case to differentiate from Kelvin, and hecto from Henry, but what about deka?

    2. Re:That's km/h, not KPH by SysKoll · · Score: 1
      Maybe kilo is lower case to differentiate from Kelvin, and hecto from Henry, but what about deka?

      IMHO, the most offensive is Pa for pascal. Why not P? To distinguish it from phosphorus?

      Most especially, Kilo was capitalized - and indeed, kilobytes per second is still properly written Kbps, not kbps, isn't it?

      No. it's kbit/s. The other abbreviations are dumbed-down gobbledygook. In tabloids such as the NYT "technology" section, maybe they write kbps or other aberrations. But in regular technical publications such as Electronic Engineering Times, you will almost always see the scientific kbit/s or Mbit/s. The only instances of "kbps" are press releases written by mostly clueless marketdroids. A search for kpbs in the EET archives revealed 8 hits, vs. 172 for kbit/s. Same for Mbps (13 bits) vs. Mbit/s (303 hits).

      These days it would appear that all the above-unity multiplier prefixes higher than kilo are still capitalized, while kilo, hecto, and deka are not. All the below-unity ones are still lower case. Is this true, and if so, why on earth was this change made? It is so offensive to common sense of order. Well, the conventions are the same since at least the 70s (cannot vouch for earlier). The symbol for kilo has been k (not K) for as long as I can remember. Maybe you have pre-International System memories.

      I don't know about any change in the capitalization convention. The only thing for sure is the list of standard prefixes, which I have learned at school in the 70s. According to the history of the Systeme International, these conventions have been unchanged since the 50s or so.

      So if your memory predates this, then you, Sir, are certainly not usurping the Old Geezer title.

      --

      --
      Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

  132. maglev in the us by ShadowRage · · Score: 1

    would be feasible... but not for, say, the whole country... at least no right away...
    start simple, start within major cities... between nearby large cities (eg, LA to San bernardino, or San Diego LA San Francisco Seattle, WA)
    stuff like that.
    that would work nicely.

  133. Timothy McVeigh by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    ... but the fact is that all of the terrorists on 9/11 were, in fact, arab muslims. If you put 2 and 2 together, ...

    You seem to forget that the second worst terrorist attack on US soil was comitted by a blonde-haired, blue-eyed ex-marine.

    Should we start presuming blondes are terrorists, or ex-marines?

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      You seem to forget that the second worst terrorist attack on US soil was comitted by a blonde-haired, blue-eyed ex-marine.

      I haven't forgotten at all. You ignore the fact that Timothy McVeigh is one person. Obviously, it takes more than 1 person to destroy the reputation of several million (or billion). Given that the largest terrorist attack on US soil was comitted by 18 or 19 arab men, each with a history of hating the US, I think it's safe to say we should watch out for arab men with a history of hating the US.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    2. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

      More americans are killed by Christian Americans every year than have been killed by Muslim extremists in the last decade. Focusing on on the 'muslim' threat is little more than an excuse to infringe on constitutional and human rights across the board.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    3. Re:Timothy McVeigh by bolthole · · Score: 1
      More americans are killed by Christian Americans every year than have been killed by Muslim extremists in the last decade

      The difference being, the Christian Americans arent forming together into terrorist groups, planning to kill as many other Americans as possible.

      Sure, they're forming together into groups. but they arent committing terrorist acts.

    4. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      The difference being, the Christian Americans arent forming together into terrorist groups, planning to kill as many other Americans as possible.

      The KKK was killing a good number of Americans at the height of their power. Terror was definitely their game, and they had a couple of massacres under their belt.

      The tobacco industry isn't built on terror -- quite to the contrary, they spent decades ensuring Americans that there was no conclusive evidence that cigarettes were unsafe while fighting a ferocious rear-guard battle, spending millions of dollars discourage or discredit the publication of those studies which did present such proof.

      The tobacco industry causes more US deaths in the averate week than died in the attacks of 9/11. Unlike the terrorists, tobacco executives don't do it for ideological reason -- unless you consider greed an ideology.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    5. Re:Timothy McVeigh by lord_nightrose · · Score: 0

      Riddle me this:
      The majority (I think all but two or three) of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Why did we start bombing Afghanistan and leave Saudi Arabia alone? Does that make any sense?

      --
      This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
    6. Re:Timothy McVeigh by lord_nightrose · · Score: 0

      Also, let's not forget that the NRA and the KKK were founded at the same time. Hmm...
      "Well, we've got guns, now all we need is something to shoot!"
      "Hey, look! There are some black people over there! Nobody likes them anyway -- we can use them as target practice!"
      Utterly horrid.

      --
      This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
    7. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      The KKK was killing a good number of Americans at the height of their power. Terror was definitely their game, and they had a couple of massacres under their belt.

      I'm really hoping you're not suggesting that all the members of the KKK are Christian Americans...

      The tobacco industry causes more US deaths in the averate week than died in the attacks of 9/11. Unlike the terrorists, tobacco executives don't do it for ideological reason -- unless you consider greed an ideology.

      You are correct, but the people that smoke cigarettes made a decision to light that cigarette. I'm sure none of the peopl in the WTC made the decision to have a plane crash into their building. I may be wrong... I'm willing to accept that possibility, but you have to show me one person that never made a decision to smoke, or one person that made the decision for the WTC to get hit with a plane.

      And just for the record, you're right... the tobacco executives DO do it for greed... but the last time I checked, greed is what drives the economy. Smoking, just like the lottery, is a tax on the stupid and weak.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    8. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      More americans are killed by Christian Americans every year than have been killed by Muslim extremists in the last decade. Focusing on on the 'muslim' threat is little more than an excuse to infringe on constitutional and human rights across the board.

      First question is an obvious one. Can you be more specific about the massive onslaught wrought upon the American people by the extremists in the Christian sects? Second question, which is actually more of a statement of fact, can you show me where in our Constitution it says that citizens of foreign countries are protected by it? Third, by my count, there are far more human rights violations in the middle-east Muslim countries than there are in the European or American Christian countries. Again, if you have evidence to suggest otherwise, please let me know. I can't remember the last time a Christian extremist flew a plane into a building or tried to hijack a plane with a bomb-laden shoe... However, once again, if you have evidence to the contrary, I'll be willing to hear you out.

      I will state, for the record, that I am NOT a Christian, or Muslim, or Jew.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
    9. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      Third, by my count, there are far more human rights violations in the middle-east Muslim countries than there are in the European or American Christian countries.

      Yugoslavia???

      If you include Central and South America in 'American Christian' then I think that we might have a pretty tight horse race in terms of government run/sanctioned torture, murder and mayhem. I was, however, mostly referring to things like USA citizens (predominantly christian) shooting each other.

      Since September 11, the US has killed more civilians in each of Iraq and Afghanistan than died in the trade tower attacks. The US is now threatening similar treatment against Iran and Syria.

      Many people strongly believe that US intervention in tht area has far more to do with oil reserves and other 'strategic' interests than human rights or terrorism. This feeling is especially strong in the Middle East (including Iraq).

      The USA's studied inaction in places like Africa supports this contention.

      As for your constitutional question, it confers rights to people (or persons), not citizens. Similarly, the Declaration of Independence holds as self evident truths that 'all men are created equal' not just those men who happened to have carved out a home for themselves within the bounds of the USA.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    10. Re:Timothy McVeigh by Matrix272 · · Score: 1

      If you include Central and South America in 'American Christian' then I think that we might have a pretty tight horse race in terms of government run/sanctioned torture, murder and mayhem. I was, however, mostly referring to things like USA citizens (predominantly christian) shooting each other.

      Yet again, you're sidestepping the issue. The issue isn't whether a country that is predominantly christian still has murders. The issue is whether those christians join together and form a terrorist organization and plan massive attacks against innocent civilians.

      Since September 11, the US has killed more civilians in each of Iraq and Afghanistan than died in the trade tower attacks. The US is now threatening similar treatment against Iran and Syria.

      I call bullshit. Prove it. Or, even better, prove that Iraq or Afghanistan is worse off now than they were in 2000 or 2001.

      Many people strongly believe that US intervention in tht area has far more to do with oil reserves and other 'strategic' interests than human rights or terrorism. This feeling is especially strong in the Middle East (including Iraq).

      Right... of course they hate us. That's why they're having parades in our honor and all. Yeah, every day I turn on the TV and see all the riots and mass hysteria about the American Occupation of Iraq... by the Democrats. When they turn the cameras on in Iraq, however, they all seem to be doing just fine. Funny how that works.

      The USA's studied inaction in places like Africa supports this contention.

      Uh huh.

      As for your constitutional question, it confers rights to people (or persons), not citizens. Similarly, the Declaration of Independence holds as self evident truths that 'all men are created equal' not just those men who happened to have carved out a home for themselves within the bounds of the USA.

      It might come as a shock, but the Declaration of Independence is NOT the Constitution, nor has it ever been. I believe you might want to actually read the Constitution. It's the one that starts out with "We the people of the United States". Take note of the absense of the phrase "and the rest of the world". I think it says pretty clearly that it only really applies to citizens of the United States.

      --
      "It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
  134. An apology by Compact+Dick · · Score: 1

    Lucky you :-) In any case, please accept my sincere apologies if my previous comment came across as rather snide - it wasn't intended that way [it does now to me.]

    Cheers,
    CD

    1. Re:An apology by BJH · · Score: 1

      No problem.

  135. wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do they even report this? Why do they build the damn thing knowing that they can't afford it? [Well maybe in 20 YEARS] Dumb. In 20 years the whole world will be a lot different and trains may not even be part of it.

  136. I'd hate to be the roadkill by Timothy+Chu · · Score: 1

    I'd imagine that the tracks would have to be fenced off to prevent anybody from tampering with the tracks. Hitting a bird or any other animal at that speed would definitely cause some serious damage. I'm sure the train would be damaged too.

  137. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    Good point (although I never complained about the abbreviation for 'crystal'). That and given that the cell towers are probably far from the tracks, the radial velocity is even less... so this probably isn't a big deal... I'm sure it would still manifest itself in a statistically measurable increase in BER, however.... just not a very significant one.

  138. But it is hard ... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    I don't think so. There have been terrorist attacks on trains (e.g., Carlos the Jackal's bombing in 1983). They just haven't been very successful and haven't led to cumbersome security measures.

    But it IS hard to drive a train into the side of a skyscraper, the Pentagon, the Whitehouse, or Capitol Hill. Potential targets are limited when compared to a fully-fueled jumbo jet.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  139. Or Mach 0.487 by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    361MPH for those of us who don't use that artificial metric crap.

    Or mach 0.487 (for those of us who don't like English units EITHER when something handier applies).

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  140. Re:500 Hz @ 900MHz 1ppm by wowbagger · · Score: 1

    Well, I was trying to head off the semi-trolls ("Uh-hu-hu U DON'T NO HOW 2 SPELL CRYSTAL!")

    And in Japan, nothing is far from anything, especially cell towers - they have those things packed tighter than sardines.

    But since the phones are talking to a cell on the train, it matters not.

  141. Gives new meaning to the term... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gives new meaning to the term 'rice rocket'. Of course at that speed if anything happens those Jap passengers would be nothing more than a smear of seaweed paper and wasabe paste.

  142. penny for your takeoff by phazei · · Score: 1

    Has anyone ever thrown a penny up in the air durring takeoff in a airplane? With the acceleration of that maglev it's gotta be.. fun...

  143. 0.5 Mach by Ristoril · · Score: 1

    According to Aerospaceweb, the speed of sound at sea level is 1225 km/h. This train is approaching half that.

    Dude. It'd be awesome to be standing at the train station and have it arrive about the time you heard the whistle it gave on the horizon, assuming it didn't Doppler up to a frequency you couldn't hear.

    Neato.

  144. Re:Impressive? How's that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So? It's hardly uncommon that the first implementations of a new technology struggle to match the best of the existing tech. What matters is that the new tech has more potential in the long run, which is likely the case here.

    Also note the difference in acceleration - the Transrapid maglev out-accelerates a typical rail-based train by a factor of 5-6. For medium hops, that's a significant factor.

  145. 962,711.1 Furlongs/Fortnight by e.m.rainey · · Score: 1

    use the right units people!

    --
    The next remark is false. The previous remark is true.
  146. Another Maglev Train by ebresie · · Score: 1

    Well...although it doesn't go that fast, there was an item in Popular Science about a similar train by the Chinese called the Shanghai Transrapid.

    --

    Eric B
    ebresie@gmail.com
  147. 300Kg = 660lbs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's fucking fat!

  148. What's the sound made by a 581 Kph train? by mnemotronic · · Score: 1
    Without a infernal (or turbine) engine, I would think the sound of the air (or the money) moving around would be the loudest noise.

    And just what is 581 Kph in a useful unit of measurement (like furlongs per fortnight)?

    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  149. Count using finger segments by chmilar · · Score: 1

    If you count by touching your thumb to the segments of your fingers (each finger has three segments), then you can count to twelve (four fingers times three segments each).

    Even better, you only need to employ one hand!

    If you use both hands, you can count up to 144 (one gross).

    --
    Reading Slashdot is ruining my spelling and grammar.
  150. Oh god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shut the fuck up

  151. MOD PARENT UP by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the very Informative(tm) comment, the leagues thing was gnawing at the back of my mind since forever!

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  152. We need Maglev ! Seriously. by strangedays · · Score: 1

    Maglev should be here in the USA check out these guys - High Speed Maglev - The Pennsylvania Project

    I have had some recent involvement with these folks and have been extremely impressed, they are capable engineers and deadly serious about making Maglev happen. I believe this would be a Good Thing and truly hope they succeed. We should be building a National network of Maglev High Speed Transit Links.

    Heresy Warning : There are three major modes of transport available, not two as is apparently the belief of many Slashdotters. Roads, Rapid transit, and Planes linked together make sense and thats what most countries use and plan on expanding. For political reasons the USA has always shunned mass transit, its way past time that outdated corrupt and fundamentally dumb attitude changed. Maglev is Green, little or no pollution, post-construction phase. Unlike Planes and Cars and Trucks.

    Maglev is hard to use as a terrorist target. Nowadays our highways are shooting galleries for insane snipers. Our airports are permanent security zoos and impossible to use efficiently due to the paranoia level required. (Side note. I think TSA is doing it as well as could be expected, its just that its a fundamentally misguided and hopeless task)

    High speed maglev rail avoids the terrorism problem. Imagine being able to travel cross country without risking a body cavity search, or driving for five days!

    If some nut takes over a Maglev train, shut down the power and call SWAT. No flying into buildings etc.

    300+ MPH or so cruise speed, gets you across the country in 8 hours, thats about the same amount of time it takes to get from your apartment to the "sorry for the delay, were first in line for takeoff" if your airport is having a bad day.

    Trains can be extremely reliable, luxuriously comfortable, smooth and fun to ride, they are rarely affected by weather, most folks in America have never had an opportunity to take a good fast train, 'cos you don't have any here. Amtrak passenger transit is a broken joke.

    Trains travel from the center of cities to the center of the next, not from some field in the boonies. Maglev high speed transit is also a national security asset, allowing movement of large quantities of goods across the country at high speed, without the need to fly it, its good to have alternatives.

    Come on folks, get real, Maglev high speed mass transit is a practical, proven twenty year old technology and the USA is standing on the sidelines whining about environmental impact statements and bogged down in litigation and monopolistic politics. How long do you think the Chinese spent on the environmental analysis for their train (Shanghai to Pudong)? We waste years on futile nit picking debate. I am all for public review, but not as an excuse to de-rail legitimate progress. We run a risk of falling way behind in this technology, instead of leading, lets get over the Not Invented Here problem, and get in the game, call your congresscritter and help make this happen.

    What say you Slashdot?

    --
    There is no god; get over it already! Never exchange a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage.
  153. Re:581 kph = 361.016663 miles per hour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please look up "significant digits" in the dictionary. God, I feel sorry for your children.

  154. America could have one of these, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    But who needs fast trains? We'd rather spend our money fighting fantasy WMDs and borrowing to give the rich tax cuts.

    Isn't life under Republicans just the greatest?

  155. Superfast cars in US by pvsk10 · · Score: 1

    Since trains are ruled out I think we are just left with building superfast cars in the US.

  156. Concorde had to slow down over residential areas.. by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    "When do regular trains ever go slow ?
    1. When going through neighborhoods to prevent too much noise from being generated.
    - Maglevs are MUCH more silent, not an issue"

    When they start reaching supersonic velocities they'll have to slow down! Just like concorde had to! ;)
    Imagine a sonic boom generated at ground-level...
    My guess is it'd be pretty disruptive.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  157. mpls should get trains. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Minneapolis just got a new light rail and it goes form the airport to downtown and it's kinda just for tourists. F that, I want a full system for us!

  158. Not so impressive by Hobbled+Grubs · · Score: 1

    I just mentioned this article to a bunch of French colleagues who promptly said... check out the TGV. A few minutes turned up a record of 515km/h set back in 1990 with older versions of todays TGV. I guess the Japanese one is maglev....

  159. magnetic levitation by lordmhoram · · Score: 1

    I guess this is Eric Laithwaite's linear motor again. Wonderful, isn't it? Japan gets trains going at 361MPH, whilst the UK - the birthplace of the inventor of the technology - gets trains going at 125MPH (barring snow, leaves, sun, clockwork running down, etc.)

  160. kph? by alf1024 · · Score: 1

    what is it kph? maybe km/h?

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (Arthur C. Clarke)
  161. North America Rail Pass by CComMack · · Score: 1

    There is a similar pass offered by Amtrak and VIA Rail Canada that allows (nearly) unlimited rail travel in both countries for a month.

  162. God's units by XNormal · · Score: 1

    God measured in cubits.

    No, the Bible measured in cubits. God measured in Planck Units. Using this set of units virtually all conversion constants disappear from the equations; Planck's constant, Gravity constant, Boltzmann constant, speed of light, etc are all equal to 1.

    --
    Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
  163. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the funniest joke _ever_!

  164. Were there people on board? by complete+loony · · Score: 1

    I've seen at least two conflicting reports, can anyone clarify if there were actually people on board the train?

    --
    09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  165. LOL by OhioJoe · · Score: 1

    Kinda funny. I initially read the last line that said, "Here is a detailed article from The Japan Times." as "Here is a derailed articale from the Japan Times"

    --
    "Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity."