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Linus Says 2004 is the Year for Desktop Linux
lca writes "Linuxworld Australia has an interview with Linus Torvalds about the current state of the Linux desktop and where it will go this year among other things. Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia."
They didn't ask Linus if he paid his $699 licensing fee to SCO. It'd be a shame for him to have to stop working on their OS..
Trolling is a art,
Why would any computer-savvy person want to move to Australia? They've got some of the toughest Internet censorship laws in the free world, IIRC...
Only requirement for good karma: be pedantic as much and as often as possible.
...and all the Linux geeks in the world would follow and worship him like deciples.
Can you say "Bill Gates as Pontious Pilate"?
"Look, I'm Linus Christ. I can serve 5000 webpages using 5 analog phone lines and 3 Amigas!"
Yes, I'm making vauge references comparing the Son of God to the Open Source movement. I'm bored and my mind is wandering.
akedia
640kb is more than we'll ever need
"The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell." This may be true but it sure isn't impossible. It will just take some time. Can't run until you can first crawl.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What has changed?
With the advent of the 2.6 series kernel, along with the efforts for compatability between KDE and GNOME, I think linux is getting very close for the desktop. I already use it as a desktop OS on my laptop with few problems. With a little bit more effort, even so -called "dummies" will be able to work with it as well.
Linux breaks desktop barrier in 2004: Torvalds
Rodney Gedda , Computerworld
15/01/2004 15:43:16
This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds. Computerworld's Rodney Gedda cornered the penguin power supremo at the Linux.Conf.au in Adelaide.
Computerworld: How do you feel Linux on the desktop is progressing?
Linus Torvalds: Last year was good but I'm seeing a lot more noise about it this year. The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.
Now, the kernel and other pieces are coming together including office applications, games and Web browsers. This has made the Linux desktop interesting to commercials. Commercials tend to choose one desktop, such as KDE or GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), and stick with it. There has been some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development. Right now it looks like the two are closing in on each other, for example, with Red Hat's Bluecurve interface.
I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.
The fact that X and kernel development have been separate is good; one could evolve without the other but DRI (Direct Rendering Infrastructure) has made them not completely independent. As a developer, having the two separate is good, because different people are good at developing for each.
CW: Any plans for 2004?
LT: I've never had much of a plan for the direction of Linux as I react to outside pressure. This year there will be a lot of desktop users, which will impact kernel developers.
For now I will be working the stabilisation of kernel 2.6 and in a month or two I expect Fedora (the core of Red Hat Linux) to have a release with 2.6 so I expect to get more bug reports.
CW: Would adopting an integrated hardware and software system be good for Linux?
LT: There are pure technical disadvantages of having an operating system that supports a wide range of hardware. The variety of hardware makes it challenging as Linux needs thousands of drivers.
But having an operating system that is independent of the hardware is powerful for the user as it is basically the same on big and small machines. Another big advantage of a wide hardware base is an operating system that is more flexible. This is why Linux is having a lot of impact in the embedded space. An operating system is a complex beast, so it's nice to have an existing one that can be adapted to the hardware. There are a few problem spots with Linux driver support by hardware companies and wireless is one of them. With hardware getting better this problem is being solved.
CW: What about Linux in the enterprise?
LT: The direction Linux takes in the enterprise will depend on what resources enterprise companies put into it. This is the one thing that will push Linux into the high end.
IBM is the most obvious, and although it is impressive to run Linux on high-end hardware, most of the people who work on Linux don't have access to it. It's the regular desktops that get most of the attention by programmers.
CW: What about open source code bundling by commercial software companies?
LT: Quite often that's fine and it is fine with BSD (Berkely Software/Standard Distribution) code. But I like the GPL (General Public Licence), because I want people to give [code] back. If hardware appliance makers don't give back code then that's a problem, but giving it back shouldn't cause any problems. And
Look at all the interesting software for linux coming out soon
KDE 3.2
Gnome 2.6
Gimp 2.0
Mplayer 1.0
OpenOffice 2.0
More games than ever
and hundreds of others.
Combine this with kernel 2.6, and with many distros going to be version 10.0 this year, this is going to be great.
KDE 3.2 will be out soon, its so easy to use, no wonder its the most popular desktop environement for Linux.
I'd have to agree with it being close to having a real viable desktop solution. Having LiveCD's in place, such as Knoppix, showing off the ease of running Linux will help bring it to the masses. It's much easier to try Linux if you just have to boot from CD and then "play" instead of having to commit to the install process. My Knoppix installed Debian feels solid compared to the "feel" of Mandrake and Suse which makes me more likely to recommend it to others that I see as borderline tech savy.
Or is it "Can't move back to Finland"? Has he crossed the Finnish mafia once too often? Did he wake up to find smelt heads in his bed? What's the REAL story here?
no desktop mentions, but cool: linux.dell.com
So, what do you think KDE or Gnome ?
My bet goes on Gnome because it has better backing by Debian, Novell and Redhat.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia.
If he is moving to Australia, maybe he can bring LinuxWorld a new webserver.
All unfair meta-mods are now being meta-meta-modded as retarded.
Everything is based on the kernel. Maybe he's looking for better optimization for certain routines that, say, OpenGL might utilize.
Or perhaps he's urging the XFree86 team to make some progress with OpenGL performance or card support (like nVidia support without the nVidia drivers). (THAT WASN'T FLAMEBAIT.)
Or perhaps he's urging, say, the GNOME team to make the desktop a tad bit more user friendly.
He could be doing a lot of things; just because he's a kernel dude doesn't mean that his input isn't important.
2004 will be a year when many corporations, especially those who will try to adapt Linux as a primary desktop platform, will recognize Gentoo for several reasons:
/usr/portage/packages for already installed systems);
Please, explain to me why.
* Portage gives a corporate IT the most fine-grained dependency control protecting the consistency of installations within upgrades;
I don't agree with this one. Corporations that "roll their own" packages have the same advantage. Movifying SRPMS can acheive the same effect.
* Gentoo makes possible to compile everything from sources on a reference hardware, adapting by that to the last bit of any available performance optimization, and then distribute the compiled binares to compatible hardware cross the enterprise (using GRP for fresh installations and just shared
Normally I would respond to this one saying that most people who use CFLAGS to optimize binaries actually hurt themselves, but corporations would have people that actually know how to use them best (i.e. -Os over -O3 or even -O2). However, I don't think that this is really an issue for corporations.
* Gentoo (mostly thanks to Portage) represents really the next generation design of Linux distro;
How so, specifically? There is something to be said for having a dedicated box to building binaries for the whole infrastructure, but the idea that Gentoo can do this and no other distro can is rather ignorant.
Gentoo is a really cool distribution (no joke), but I fail to see any technical advantages it has over other distributions. It's real strengths are in how it brings a lot of advanced administration techniques down to the level of an intermediate-level user. Plus the forums are cool, and portage is really well maintained.
Trust me on this one, though, there's no actual technical superiority over other distributions.
By the way, can you do reverse dependency checking yet? Like uninstalling gtk, and having every app that builds against gtk also unistall? I'm not "knocking" it if it can't (this isn't too important to corporations anyways), I'm just curious.
Sick of gentoo zealots throwing plugs in completely unrelated topics? Me too!
--- any post that takes longer than 20 seconds to write, isn't worth writing
... and I'm even willing to propose that not only is it ready for the desktop, but its ready for a lot of other things as well.
...
Linux' recent advances in the embedded industry mean that the desktop is really just one place for vmlinuz-xx to succeed. And oddly enough, I also think - as a long-term linux user - that this is an advantage for both fronts, desktop/embedded.
The cool distro's are doing some interesting work too, I might add. Embedded distro's, or more appropriately "source control", are putting a standard system image in some very interesting places, all at once.
2004 is gonna rock. And I know its just my opinion, but I had to say it
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
cos the kernel is what all that stuff lays on top of.
2004 will definitely be the linux desktop year.
And IMHO it takes the right direction with Bruce Perens' UserLinux initiative, if he succeeds at convincing linux users/developpers to switch to/work on this new DIY operating system.
It's mission statement would be : Provide businesses with freely available, high quality Linux operating systems accompanied by certifications, service, and support options designed to encourage productivity and security while reducing overall costs.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent - Salvor Hardin
Future slashdot headline:
"Linus says 2034 really, really is the Year for Desktop Linux, honest! I'm pretty damn sure this time! I swear!"
Seriously, we hear that every goddamn year since 2002. It's an annual thing, like those stupid so-called analysts saying "Apple is dying this year".
It's not that I'm against it, in fact I am a desktop Linux user, but this is just ridiculous.
I was wondering similar things myself on reading the headline. I haven't yet installed 2.6 on my machine yet, but I have heard that it is a bit 'snappier', which I believe goes a long way towards making the desktop seem like you are controlling it, rather than having it control you. The KDE / gnome work, is also very important, but a solid fast user-responsive kernel is a boon to anyone trying to sell anyone else on linux on the desktop.
Linus says: I do work from home so I could work anywhere. I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.
The last half of that sentence was a total non-sequiter. Maybe he is trying to get his mother off his back.
Heresey! Say 15 "Hail Linus's"
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
It's kind of like declaring this is the year that an asteroid will strike the earth. Keep declearing that this is the year and eventually you will be proved right. (not that Linux on the desktop would mean devastation of life on earth, as we know it).
***General Consultant to the Human Race*** My opinions are free. You get what you pay for.
hmm... how is this relevant... let me think...
perhaps because the desktop is based on the foundation of a GNU/Linux OS?
On second thought, you're right. The kernel has nothing at all to do with the rest of the OS...
Go get yourself a clue. I hear Milton-Bradley sells them at $19.95 a pop.
Partly because it will be my 10 year anniversary of using GNU/Linux... but practically, too.
/. article on that before.. that or linuxworld.com)...
I can't really put my finger on just why that year sticks out, but it does. I suspect that it will take a year+ for 2.6 to mature/be accepted to the point where most major distros are shipping it and most howtos are being written for it. I also suspect that both GNOME and KDE will reach another major version by 2006 (haven't checked their road maps... just hoping.) I also hope that device support will continue to grow as it has, configuration tools will mature more, and the "your mama" test will be more easily passed. I doubt all that will happen in the next twelve months.
As for what I think COULD happen? I think a major U.S. gov't agency could start putting GNU/Linux into major use. I think we will see a lot more adoption abroad. Maybe even a first world national government promoting it in some way. I understand GNU/Linux desktop usage will top Mac desktop usage (was a
Now I'm just rambling. This made very little sense. sorry. It is 2:30 AM EST... I'm going to bed.
--- any post that takes longer than 20 seconds to write, isn't worth writing
Well, I think he is kinda the soul of the movement, is like if Stallman says anything about SCO, he can't change anything, but all we linux-geeks are waiting for His Holy Word :)
DON'T PANIC
Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop? It seems to me that first of all, 3D is always going to be slower to manage and display than 2D; monitors (even the newer ones with the spiffy multi-layer technology) don't really handle 3D displays well. Yes, I want my 3D displays, such as they are, for gaming; I don't see any real need or use for it in a business desktop, though.
Feel free to correct me here, but I don't read text on a slanted pane very well...:)
This flies in the face of science.
I use both Windows XP and Mandrake and I use a wide range of programs. While most of my programs wont even work on Linux (I don't count xwindows) There are a crop of programs that I prefer on Linux or actually a crop of applications. One example, Myth, is a program that beats the hell out of Windows Media Center Edition. I think the more Microsoft tries to lock down what you can do with your computer the more success Linux will have.
I would like to salute the ashes of american flags, and all the fallen leaves filling up shopping bags.
I thought 1999 was the year of the Linux desktop -- at least that's when I gave Winders the boot and Linux the boot sector.
... will GenuLinux get the software it needs to make it on the desktop?
Why is it hard to release a well known application for linux? I won't suggest photoshop because somebody will remind me about GIMP and totally sidetrack the question.
But why is there resistance to releasing an a high end application on GenuLinux? The way i see it, the don't want to touch the GPL and i keep hearing that as the cause for resistance. But DO you have to add to the GPL, i thought you could just release the app and make people buy it (like any other app), why the connotations that Genulinux users have to have it for free or won't pay just because the OS is?
I don't think it has anything to do with MS either for say Adobe to release an application for GenuLinux. I think they might be confused as I am, moreso when i see photoshop ported to linux using WINE.
Jonathanjk.com
Linux is ready for the desktop market, concerning speed, power, and(almost) ease of use.
The major obstacle is that people stick with what they're comfortable with.
Linux's office programs are just as good(if not better) than their windows equivalents, but everyone I know who uses Word will stick with it till they die, because they know it backwards and forwards(I got my friend, an author, running linux, and he loves it, but he made me get word to work on it via Wine).
I use openoffice(I dual boot and use openoffice in both XP and Linux), but only because I didnt want to shell out for word when i got my new computer.
People are comfortable with what they've been using in the past. Until the layperson can understand the massive advantages of using linux, they will stick to windows.
~To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation. -Yann Martel
This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds.
Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?
Aside from impoverished goverments in third world countries (California anyone?) are the masses going to bother learning something new when what they have tends to meet their needs?
contrary to some of the other responses to your post - i agree with you wholeheartedly. success and penetration of the desktop will have very little to do with performance from 2.6 kernel - but rather with good usability practices within the community.
What's his latest toy?
A Sony Electronics Inc. Vaio, Japanese edition. It's a handheld PC that has a 4-GB hard disk, 64 MB of RAM and a Pentium MMX 266-MHz processor. It weighs in at just 2.6 pounds and runs both Linux and Windows. "It's cute as hell." Oh, and it has a built-in camera.
Now imagine Billy-boy using Linux (maybe just to give it a test-run) and talking publicly about it. That would never happen because of the expected PR backlash.
Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.
Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
He's gonna trade reliability and simplicity for speed by taking a page from Microsoft's book and putting display drivers in kernel space.
Actually, that's supposed to be 2064. Exactly one year after the first gay president is elected.
But 99% of the problems that Linux has on the desktop have nothing to do with the kernel, and hence, nothing to do with Linus.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Don't underestimate the importance of a good kernel for the desktop. You need good multitasking support (low-latency context switching, an efficient scheduler, a good VM system) for the GUI environment to be responsive and zippy. You need a good infrastructure and API for device drivers to get the most out of your peripherals. People hate buying a fancy video card only to find that half the I/O ports aren't supported.
Why would any year for Linux be make or break? That makes no sense at all when one considers the strides that have been made in just the last few years.
I personally think Linux is popular because of X,OpenOffice,Gimp,Apache,TuxRacer, etc etc, and ETC and there is nothing but more software coming out for the OS. I cannot imagine everyone throwing in the towel after 2004 if Linux doesn't take over the desktop: "Oh hell, forget it, this was to be THE year, but wasn't so let's shut the doors."
Also, a lot of people are already using Linux as a desktop and feel the "make" much more than the "break" already. If mass appeal picks up, great, but considering the effort that goes into the OS and the software that runs on Linux, to simplify one year as THE defining year for an operating system misses the point.
Don't they have freedom of religion in Austraila?!!!!
although KDE and GNOME give you the "interface" its the kernel that is doing actual job behind the scene. Kernel 2.6 has a lot of new and improved features.
Right now the some of the issues that make Linux desktops less appealing to joe six pack and corporate users are "support" as in who would i call to fix a problem, and FUD.
These issues are starting to disappear.InFact sco's case has given a lot of people to take a serious look at linux(and GPL).
also getting a moral push from people like linus is important to any project associated with linux.
So what linus says matters!!!
among other things hardware support(for CURRENT hardware) is vital for desktop success(which 2.6 may or may not have impact on later on, or whatever he plans to do).
the page isn't loading for me so I can't really comment on if his commenting it somehow.
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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Still doesn't matter. Desktop users need something easy to use. If you could build a Linux system that a KDE or Gnome theme that made the system seem exactly like XP, coupled with applications that behaved exactly like the ones people are used to, you'd have a winner.
Desktop systems are about the users. And the users couldn't give a rat's ass about the kernel.
The grandparent didn't replace that text at all. The parent is a replacement text troll TROLL.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Well than we should ask Intel, don't you think?
The user is using their sig for advertisement, which is ok by me, but when I have sigs off I expect not to see them.
I think Slashdot needs a feature that detects when people are putting their sig in their messages, and automatically move it to the sig for display.
to the same extend
Proud owner of a Mensa membership card
Obviously, said Mensa membership card was lost by someone else and you found it on the sidewalk. Someone who really belonged to Mensa wouldn't use "extend" in the above phrase because they would know the correct word is "extent."
In 2005, it's back to Windows then?
One word: Drivers.
I've been a UNIX fan forever. I'm ecstatic that Linux is finally making headway. Putting up with Microsoft's sloppy ways is getting very old. Maybe when Bill see's his market-share start to plummet he'll get serious about putting out a quality product.
FURRIES
Not likely. Everyone I know has switched (office, not os) I show them open office at $0, compared to MS Office for $hundreds Not a difficult choice, since they work exactly the same for most people to type documents.
I'm a programmer, and I don't mind having to google/read a book/scour the newsgroups to find out how to install XYZ software. However, the average user wants to just point and click. They like having Microsoft/Apple update their software for them. Look how popular Norton is. I just don't see how the open source movement will ever be motivated to work on usability issues related to Linux.
Think about this. How many times have you heard the terms "usability" and "open source" in the same sentence. Now how many times have you heard these same terms without the word "NOT". Have you ever heard of "yet another user interface"? No, instead we have software with names like yacc, Bison, and ANTLR (all of these programs are used in compiler design).
Look, I like Linux too, but as a server. It's just not ready for the desktop.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
It's also why this is just another wishful claim that will be repeated next year.
-
Inventor of the term 'pardon my French'.
...another claim that Linux is closer to ruling the desktop.
And no, I don't start drooling just because its Linus that says it.
Linux is still missing full functionality from all IM protocals, serious gaming support, fast boot times and out of the box for the latest tech toys.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
It might be the year of Linux on the desktop, but it won't be the year of Debian on the desktop. Debian is far from being ready for the desktop. Yeah, go ahead and mark this is a flame. The truth hurts doesn't it?
...for Linu$ to keep his own name!
I agree. With companies providing support for Linux (read: Red Hat), I think that this is Linux's year. With Novell buying Suse, and distros like XPde, Fedora Core, and Mandrake delivering a familiar desktop look and feel to users, it will become eventually transparent. I am researching transitioning at least some of my boxes to Debian/Mozilla Firebird/Mozilla Mail/OOO. These are boxes for those employees who, you guess it, type up e-mail, surf the web, and type stuff up. Granted it will not be a solution for all or even some, but it is definitely worth looking into, not putting all your eggs into the MS basket. Users do not even have to know that the command line exists!
I hate sigs.
Didn't we see this story before? Oh wait, that was in 2003. And 2002. And.... P.
2003 was the year of the rat. So I guess SCO's time is up.
There was no mention of desktops on my chinese restaurant placemat, though, so either Linus or ancient Chinese mystical wisdom is wrong.
Lets makes happen the KDE and GNOME merge. For the ones who say that the competition was pushing the two teams to develop better things among the other, why not bringing a linux (100% open source) desktop to the end user could not be a good motivation?
Not to start the gnu/linux vs linux flamewar, but Linux is just the kernel. Its the distros that matters.
We should be saying is it the year for SuSE, Slackware, Mandrake etc.
For me SuSE was ready since 8.0, Mandrake was ready since 8.0. Gentoo is almost there (If it automatically setup X it would work), but I feel some distributions need some work, namley Debian and Fedora.
Linux is ready for anything, as long as its supports your hardware, but what really matters is whats on top.
What finally got me to try Linux is when I read a post on Slashdot about Mepis, which, like Knoppix, is a Linux distribution on a bootable CD. While I'd been aching to give Linux a try for years, I never had a spare box to run it, and I wasn't about to wipe XP and all my stuff off my main computer. If you haven't heard about it, Mepis is a full linux install and suite of software that you can boot off a CD and play with, without wiping your existing operating system from your hard drive.
After trying Mepis for just a couple hours, I fell in love. Everything from my optical mouse to my Nvidia drivers to my keychain drive worked without any installation. I'm going to go on using XP on my current box, but I now know that the Linux desktop is indeed ready for prime time. When I upgrade to a new system next year, Microsoft won't get a penny. I'm going to buy a whitebox system, and get myself a good Linux distribution.
I don't care how polished Linux gets; I think the only way it's ever going to get exposure to general users is on Mepis/Knoppix style CD ROMs that let people take the OS for a test drive. I really think that the best way to bring Linux to the general public is to distribute as many ten-cent CD ROMs as you can to friends and family, so they can see for themselves that there's no need to pay the Microsoft tax on their next PC purchase.
The way I see it, overcoming Microsoft's hegemony requires working on two fronts. The first is building quality distributions that work plug-and-play with everything from printers to wireless cards. And the second front is the creation of full-featured bootable CD's that let people see -- on their own machine -- how great Linux has become.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
wake me up when the "Year of the Laptop Linux" rolls around...my laptop being my only machine, i'm not exactly allowed into the world of linux...
Hard work often pays off in time, but laziness always pays off right now.
I don't understand this as it looks like had quite an impact on the The Pythons
Not that I'm complaining, but wasn't 2003 supposed to be the year of desktop linux?
Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom."
Hardly.
I'd venture it's because the Slashdot community holds their villians to a higher standard than their heroes.
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
Alright, this is going out of hand. I find that most of the charm of the Mr Torvalds is that he's close to us other geeks, and sort-of "first among equals"... Yeah, of course, not exactly, but you get my idea.
Now over the last months I seem to see a crop of "Linus says..." and stuff... I don't want to see this become a personnality cult, as it's going to strongly degrade the quality of the open-source developper environment.
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
Just as desktops are in decline, so I'm told. "Desktop PC popularity 'to plummet' by 2007" according to ZDNet.
What Linux needs is _laptop_ support. When you get a laptop with Windows on, it all works. All those funny blue-coloured function buttons? Click and up and down goes the volume, the machine sleeps, hibernates, wakes up. The CD transport buttons on the edge work when you have the unit switched off, and it can even play MP3s from C:\MyMP3s when (apparently) switched off.
Well, thats what the Acer Aspire we got the other day did. And then we put Linux on it, and my techie has spent the last three days trying to get half those things working again. Tried assorted kernels to get hibernation working - but there was a conflict with the Nvidia drivers and we lost accelerated X. DVD recording isn't working for some reason, although CDs are. I think we can get the function buttons working - we did this for another batch of laptops previously.
As laptops get more and more popular, Linux is going to have to sort these things out sharpish. Lots of our staff now have desktop linux boxes (and some have had them for years) but more and more want laptops, and they expect the same feature set as with Windows - but at the moment we cant give that to them.
www.tuxmobile.org is your friend...
Baz
He's more than a kernel hacker, he's an open source leader. Part of his role in the community is to set direction, identify problem areas, and do all of those other things that leaders do.
By Linus coming out and focusing on the desktop (even if just in words) he's effectively pointing the collective effort of the open source community more and more to that end.
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
Although many of us respect Linus for his contributions and commitment to open source, in the same way we respect Richard Stallman for his, I certainly hope that Linus's "This is the year linux desktop will be ready" has a greater chance of coming to pass than Stallman's "This is the year HURD will be ready."
They both have and continue to play critical roles -- but sometimes they're just guessing and hoping for the best like the rest of us.
Slightly off-topic, but please, I am serious.
I'm a 30 years old computer nerd who's very interested in music. I just bought a new guitar - a Gretsch, it's for professionals. Now, I have a theory. My theory is that _everyone_ can learn to play any instrument well if he/she _really_ wants to.
Like I said, I'm 30 years old. I'm taking this as a great challenge and I'm willing to practise 4-5 hours/day. I believe I can become as good as any what you would call a great Jazz guitarist out there in 5 years if I practise _efficiently_. If I can use my intelligence to make plans how to get the most out of practising I really do believe I can do it. Any suggestions would be welcome. How to start practising guitar playing in most intelligent way possible? I'm sure you have some ideas even if you wouldn't play any instrument. I believe I can achieve my goal and I believe any one of you could do it too if you really wanted to. Thanks! (..and sorry for this off-topic post)
Good question.
The kernel has a lot to do with the GUI believe it or not. Specifically the 2.6 preemptible kernel, which is a notion which Windows has used since Win2000, speeds up GUI response time.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
I think you mean GNU/Christ, brother.
Erlang.org: wow
... because many important peripherals do not work by default. For example, getting 802.11x is still a pita in linux unless you plan ahead by making certain that your hardware works with it. And most people won't care about saving a few hundred bucks if they can't get a scanner or camera or mp3 player or PDA or $whatever to interface with their PC. I could not pretend that an average user should use Linux at this point, unless they are interesting in having PC maintenance as a new hobby.
This is not a problem with the linux kernel, but instead a typical problem of market share in a marketplace dominated by a player with a high degree of monopoly power. Put more simply, the problem is not that Linux sucks, it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc).
However, 2004 will probably be the year where corporations start to move some of their enterprise desktops to Linux. With Novell and Sun both pushing Linux/GNOME solutions, and the less varied peripheral requirements of Linux in the corporate environment... things seem to be pointing in that direction. I would predict that "Year of the Desktop" makes more sense for 2005, when Linux will be building market share thanks to the corps, and hardware manufacturers start to pay more attention to getting things to work.
Though, for knowledgeable people who are willing to go through the hassle of getting devices to work with Linux, the Year of the Desktop was really 2003... at least for me it was. DVD, ALSA, OOo, MozillaFirebird.... these things help make the Linux desktop possible and they are here long before 2004 started.
501 Not Implemented
Yel3an dinak
;-)
Doesn't really go well with the subject
"Be careful or be roadkill" - Calvin
Says who?
This is what XPDE is trying to do (clone the Windows XP interface). Except for the applications part...it provides a shell that looks like the Windows XP one along with a control panel and some other stuff (at least I seem to remember it having that stuff).
Personally, you can pry Window Maker out of my cold dead fingers...but I've been using GNU/Linux on the desktop full time for nearly four years. All the software I use works fine on GNU/Linux so I have no need for Windows. I just need a few games (Frozen-Bubble, LBreakout2, Legacy Doom, Quake2), Emacs, a web browser, and a simple DAW for my occasional audio work (Ardour is awesome for this). I'm not a "desktop user" I guess.
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
According to The Register, Munich is finding that trying to get Linux on the city's desktop is not yet possible -- even with direct help from IBM and SuSE. They're finding that what Microsoft has said about Word is true in general: it isn't just the big things that everybody uses which are a problem, but also the little things which a very small number of people can't do without. In that case of Word, it turns out that almost everybody has a few small, exotic features that they really need, and that those small features, taken together, add up to a much greater barrier than all the big features which everybody needs.
This isn't going to be the year of Linux on the desktop if that holds true generally.
ok, so maybe linux itself is nearing readyness to take on windows. gnome/kde have come a long way as have the kernel and indeed linux PR in general.
however, i still do not feel that 2004 is "year of the linux desktop" because the market will not be ready for it. i will come back to my regular example - my mother. not only is she an occasional home user, but my mother runs a business of about 40 people strong who do medical aid claims processing. like many companies her size, she runs:
* Windows on Desktop
* Windows on Server
* Office on Desktop
* Exchange on Server
* ACCESS APPLICATION THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR HER
ok. so the first 3 you can pretty much wipe out with linux. the exchange thing, i still believe is a problem. i have been babblin on about good groupware capabilities in Linux for years and quite frankly i'm still shocked at the lack of a good alternative to exchange. although i am impressed by ximian's exchange connector - how ironic is running MS Exchange for your server and Linux on the desktop...
anyway. lets get back to the BIG PROBLEM - her access database package. in fact, when i go to my dentist - they've got some custom built access application. as does my physio. as do many small sized businesses.
the thing that will make it the year for the linux desktop will be a big "SWITCH"-like campaign. although all the pieces of the puzzle (ximian, 2.6 kernel, KDE, GNOME, CrossOver etc...) are available - they still need to be assembled to create the correct picture - and this will continue to take time. but i feel that a big assistant to this could come from some clever people like VMWare or Citrix. "ok, so you have this, this and that running on Windows - and there is no Linux version. ok, lets just run them in a thin-client/emulator". that will need a lot more knowledge from the small outsourced IT company my mother currently uses, and a bit more technical innovation. the long and the short: still more time.
Which means nearly nothing to UI development. The kernel is not holding back KDE/Gnome, lack of cohesion and division of effort is.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
Just wait 'til next year!
Yum!
.sigs are for post^Hers.
You know, I hear that argument quite a bit. But Windows 9x -> XP had a learning curve. Mac OS 9 -> Mac OS X had a learning curve. The same goes for applications. Every now and then the interface changes, and users learn how to use it. With OS, the vast majority just go with what's already installed when they buy it. Once Gnome and KDE are deemed useable enough to ship pre-installed on consumer PC lines by the likes of Dell, Sony, and HP, people will buy them as long as they can access all their files. They don't need to know that every widget will look the same. When people buy a new replacement computer, they say "Will I be able to view all my photos and listen to all my songs? Will I be able to access all my favorite web sites? Will I be able access my documents and spreadsheets?" If applications have full file compatibility, and the system mime types are set correctly, they won't care. They'll see right away that it's a little different, and they'll take the time to learn it, as long as the files open and the data is still correct.
n/t
as was 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000. And January 2005 we will hear how 2005 will finally be the year of Desktop linux.
There is such a feature, it's called the foes list.
i may be differant from the masses, but my switch to regularlly using linux (significantlly more than windows) came not because of a new feature or better hardware support (not that these things arent very important), but because my work/school load dictates that i do not have time to play games as much as i used to. therefore, i have no reason to use windows.
Lead me not into temptation. I can find it myself.
How is his input vital for desktops which are KDE/GNOME dominated now, projects he is not involved with...
I'm sure you can say the opposite when it comes to hardware support "To get Linux on the desktop, it needs to work with every two-bit gizmo Joe Average has. The kernel needs to do that, not us".
And then someone will come along and say "Kernel, KDE/Gnome that's all nice. But it's our *applications* that make people come to Linux. Without applications, Linux is nothing".
Who is right? A little bit of everybody. And Linus is leading one of the trinity, so I'd say he's pretty damn important.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
For me to switch more toward my Unix style installation instead of XP I would like to see more multimedia. I see a trend toward using the PC as a multimedia entertainment centre. Hook up a projector and you have TV, PVR, timeshifing live TV, Radio Games, mail and Internet on a big screen. I don't see a whole lot of support for the All in Wonder Radeon in Linux or BSD. Also more games would be nice. Otherwise Linux would be a nice stable platform for a Multimedia PC. How about mabey a Multimedia Linux Version, hey Linus, pretty please.
Many a long talk since then I have had with the man in the moon; he had my confidence on the voyage. Joshua Slocum
I tried once to learn some, but the pronunciation is damn hard. You are the first to comment on it though.
While I think Linux's desktop is mostly ready for prime time (both KDE and Gnome could still use a lot of polish, though...), it's driver architecture is not. 2.6 is still suffering from a lot of old and poor architectural choices, making it difficult to develop drivers for new hardware quickly. I saw some discussion of changes which could go into 2.7/2.8 which might make it easier to correct this. But until the driver architecture is fixed, you're going to have installation problems on newer machines. And until you have really smooth installation on newer machines, people aren't going to adopt Linux on the desktop. It has to be trivial to install or it won't fly.
Not only that, doesn't he still use FVWM?
Clean Skies Initiative
I'm a compassionate conservative.
Or my favorite:
I was elected President of the United States.
Exactly like Windows. Yeah, that's a great strategy, it's been working for Apple for years. (I know, I know, their market share is incredibly low, but they're profitable and the mainstream uses and usually respects their products.)
I think one of the problems with the current Linux desktop is that they try too hard to copy Windows. First, it makes Linux appear as a cheap Windows knock-off. Second, all the annoyances of the Windows interface are there and then some.
Desktop Linux desperately needs some creative interface people who can concoct a fairly original, simple, streamlined, attractive, and usable GUI. Look at Mac OS X for instance. Many geeks are migrating away from Windows and Linux in favor of Apple's new OS due to the power, simplicity, and beauty of Mac OS X.
I believe desktop Linux would make more progress if it say Mac OS X as its main competition and not Windows. If Linux could be developed into an OS X alternative for x86, it could gain ground fast. Next, campaign HARD for games support and we could have a serious Windows-killer on our hands.
vi ~/.emacs
i couldn't agree more. everytime i see an article about linux on the desktop, i think about some of the people i know who would be considered "average" users. people who use windows (xp/2000/nt/9x/whatever) everyday for work or school, and are perfectly capable of checking email/using word/excel/ect, but would not migrate to linux simply because it is something differant they dont need/have time to learn. i think someone said before that what linux on the desktop needs is a "killer app", that is, something that windows doesnt do.
Lead me not into temptation. I can find it myself.
I'm amazed that someone pointed out that Linus uses a laptop that has Windows on it, as well as linux, and used that as an example of what an honest guy Linus is (because he was willing to tell everyone, since presumeably, Gates would never be that honest if his laptop had linux). The fact that Linus has Windows loaded on his laptop along with Linux is a blatant example of the fact that LINUX IS NOT COMPLETELY READY FOR MAINSTREAM. Maybe, Linus should be using his laptop without Windows before he declares 2004 the "year of the linux desktop".
Okay, now everyone go ahead and flame away, I've set myself up here I suppose, but just keep in mind I'm very much PRO-LINUX. I want nothing more than 2004 to be the year of the linux-desktop... I'm just a realist and there are a lot of people in the Linux community who are realists, too, who understand that linux is headed in too many different directions to be mainstream. Organize, combine, simplify: 1 distro, 1 desktop, solid hardware detection, simple upgrades.
-- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
for the average user the windows 9x -> XP learning curve was almost nil. Especially if they use the classic desktop. Most users don't do anything but go to the start menu and run their programs.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop?
So we can all wear those cool red/blue glasses at work!
Duh!
This Like That - fun with words!
so what exactly is your complaint?
I've been using linux as my desktop since 94. Its gotten a heck of a lot easier to use in the meanwhile. I'll say it right here: the usability of open source continues to improve, and is in fact better than the last windows desktop I had to use.
how do you install bison or yacc on windows, anyhow?
a good kernel, and a good filesystem. both of which imply BSD.
On Linux, you can either browse the web, do signifigant ( >5meg) file copying OR listen to audio files. One at a time, and certainly not all three at the same time. To try to mix two of those tasks will bring the system to a slow crawl.
This is NOT true for BSD or even windows XP (for fuck's sake!); which is probably why apple chose BSD as the core kernel of their OS despite linux being available for their platform.
Ha Ha!
The really cool thing about Linus is he really is like the number one fan of Linux. 2004, the year of Linux on the desktop? Probably not really, but you can tell he is really enjoying this, and I really appreciate that.
Quack, quack.
"Put more simply, the problem is not that Linux sucks, it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc)."
I'm not trolling but I'm trying to make a point. If I plug in my wireless lan card and it doesn't work it DOES SUCK (relative to east automatic recognition in Windows). Yes, it's all subjective but I guess the point I'm making is that many people think that Linux sucks (or part of it sucks) because of this lack of hardware support. (In reality I have a love/hate relationship with Linux.)
I was interested by your comments about market share and it made me reflect on the many governments that are adopting Linux around the world. Perhaps, China is our answer. This is a long shot guess, but I think there's a good chance for widespread open source adoption out there and eventually this will lead to the consumer level. I can easily see groups being inspired to being dedicated to making Linux usable to the everyday user.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Coach Wooden: "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that's teamwork."
Ref.
I don't claim I know more than I know, and if you know you know more than I know, then by all means, let me know.
Even a toilet has a learning curve. The parent poster is correct. As long as the mime types work, then all will be OK.
Always value the individual over the system. --Bruce Lee "I don't need a Sig - I have a custom 191" - me
They like having Microsoft/Apple update their software for them.
...like up2date -u in a cron job?
On a more serious note, I don't expect that the garage hacker, working to make Linux work for himself, to care one flying fuck about usability. But so many people are trying to make Linux usable for others - be it as consumer distributions, business desktops and whatnot, that I expect they will.
I don't think Linux developers care any less about usability, but I think they're still busy making a) the "it works" tools or b) the power tools (good usability, but "expert" tools). Once they are in place, I'm sure someone will find a way to dumb them down enough for average users to use.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
means something to you? :)
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
I find it surprising that more businesses aren't aware of the benefits of switching to Linux desktops that are X thin clients. I use an LTSP-style setup at home and it really works well. There aren't low-cost clients available in the shops though, so I have to make my own using VIA mini-ITX kit for about 150ukp (~$250).
With the commoditisation of gigabit networking and 64-bit machines (i.e. Opteron), it must be fairly easy for one server to support more than 40 desktops.
- Brain.
First of all, winters aren't insanely cold. For example, this winter in Helsinki we only had 3 days at -15 degrees C so far, the rest has been between 0 and -6.
But the reason to live here are many: excellent education, health and public transport and beautiful living conditions: the whole city is embedded in parks. We actually don't have something you can call parks, the buildings and streets are actually connected together with large green areas. Basically, you can go anywhere through parks and woods.
Finns like to live close to nature, and somehow, wild animals feel comfortable in the presence of people. So it's easy to meet, even here, in the capital area, with squirrels, wild rabbits, pheasants, and sometimes even bears and wolfs (a bit more to the north, but still metropolitan area). I find this wonderful!
And then, there's the mentailty of the people, which I like so very much: Finnland have extremely low crime rate, and Finns in general don't lie (in any case, much less than any other nation I have seen, and I've traveled a lot), which makes life very simple. As a consequence, the administrative overhead to do anything, is very low. You can do most things by way of internet or just telephone.
So, it might not be your cup of tea, but for me it's paradise.
Sigged!
This is yet another article on "the state of Linux on the desktop," and yet again, we're told this year will be "the year."
I've been hear that since at least 1998, every year.
"Sufferin' succotash."
You know, I hear that argument quite a bit. But Windows 9x -> XP had a learning curve.
What learning curve? Our XP boxes at work look exactly like Win98 boxes, aside from a Tahoma font on everything instead of whatever it was they used before.
Control Panel, My Computer, Recycle Bin--everything's in the same place and works like it always has. What are you talking about?
"Sufferin' succotash."
There will be the first "Year of the Linux Desktop" (YotLD) in 2004, when corporations and various governments START to deploy Linux desktops.
....
...
2005 will be the YotLD when even more corporations and governments deploy Linux desktops because they see the savings that the 2004 crowd are getting.
2006 will be the YotLD when more home users start to migrate to Linux because they're using it at work AND the game manufacturers ship Linux versions along with the Windows versions.
2007 will be the YotLD
2008 will be the YotLD...
2009
2010 will be the YotLD when just about everyone is running Linux desktops or on whatever they use to do whatever it is they do then.
No you would have
A) A major Microsoft Law Suit
B) An OS that has you running as root.
c) An windows clone that is too busy trying to emulate windows to be a good OS.
In my not so humble opinion the idea is to be better then Miscrosoft not to be the same.
Or did I miss a memo or something?
Don't overestimate it, either. Windows 9x got along for years with a shitty DOS kernel, but the interface worked consistently and applications ran nicely.
"Sufferin' succotash."
IT'S: YHBT
Does he use the theme that looks like Windows 2000?
The human interface design has a lot more to do with a GUI than the kernel beneath it. Example: Windows 98.
"Sufferin' succotash."
#!/bin/sh
echo -n 'But version '
uname -v | awk 'BEGIN { FS = "." } { print $1 "." $2+1 }'
echo ' will fix all that!!!!'
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
To toot my own horn (the surgery to let you do that is well worth it):
Magicosm, an online fantasy world, is coming out for Linux this year. We should be releasing sometime around June. It'll run on Mac, Windows, or Linux, and we'll let you take part in a classic fantasy world in every way - complete cradle to grave crafting for everything, build your own cities and governments, research new spells in your lonely wizard tower...
Check us out!
http://www.magicosm.net
you guys really have to see the website http://www.bushin30seconds.org/ ads campain to increase the awarness of the mass... enjoy!
I agree that bootable CDs make a huge difference. There is one problem, though. I've given bootable CDs to a few people. When they reboot with the CD in the drive nothing happens but Windows loading. Many (most?) users need to set their BIOS to try booting from CD because it's not set by default. When I explain that it's an immediate turn-off, no matter how easy it is. They sigh and think using Linux means work. They've all been happy in the end, but unfortunately it may not be as easy as handing out CDs and saying, "Put this in and turn on your computer." Plus if this becomes common I'm sure a certain big software company will strongly suggest to desktop hardware manufacturers that booting from CD not be on by default.
Developers: We can use your help.
Well, a lot of this is based on a false perception on the part of the hardware developers that they are selling hardware and software. If they'd just drop their pants on the interface specification and let open source drivers be written, they'd get more customers.
We don't need them to produce drivers for Linux distros or desktop environments. They just need to open their interfaces and let other people write software for their hardware. I guarantee you that the interface documents exist internally (with labels on them like Proprietary: Internal Use Only) -- all they have to do is
Are they afraid we'll make fun of their poor spelling?
Liberty you never use is liberty you lose.
Damnit, I don't get it. Explain please?
Actually, it's not all in the same place. By default, the only icon on an XP desktop is the recycle bin - if you want My Computer, My Documents, My Network Places, you have to go in and add them. Display Properties --> Desktop--> Customize Desktop.
In fact, I've watched many people revert back to the classic theme specifically because there is a learning curve they don't want to deal with. Personally, I've found the new start menu design, etc to be more efficient, but it did take some time to get used to. In short, the XP boxes you're using may be set up by your IT department to look and behave just like 98, but that is *not* the out-of-the-box behaviour.
Bill Gates and Microsoft have freely stated they have everything from Solaris machines to Apple machines to Linux machines running in their company. It's not earth-shattering news.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Plus if this becomes common I'm sure a certain big software company will strongly suggest to desktop hardware manufacturers that booting from CD not be on by default.
That would also make it difficult to use the restore cds that come with most any new desktop machine today. It would generate more calls to OEM helpdesks. MS might suggest it (which I doubt) but the OEMs won't go for it.
Or perhaps it's the BSD license? But psh, silly me, being sensible.
This guy does nothing but snipe at the obvious and it makes me really unhappy
IMHO a great addition to Desktop Linux would be hardware-rendering of vector graphics built-in. It would also be nice if the desktop was rendered with vector graphics and, therefor, resolution-independent. This would open the door for nifty visual effects like another os) my $0.02
And to a degree it was true each of the previous two years.
This year will be better than the last two though, especially with Sun winning contracts to place its desktop offering (plus backend services) at some bigger businesses and governments.
And assuming Novell does some moderately successful push in 2004, which seems plausible, Linux-on-the-desktop stands to gain even more.
Nay-say all you like, but corporate and government acceptance is gaining serious momentum, and it likely could reach a point of critical mass this year.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
What it will require in order to be ready for the desktop is perfect emulation of the Windows API including DirectX support. The reason most people I know won't switch (or dual boot) is because of games or that one application they can't (or won't) live without. In my house all of my machines are running Gentoo save one dual booter used for an unsupported game (WineX doesn't work). At work, most machines are Linux/Win4Lin, though some are still windows due to an old text terminal interface with an ancient server and for a few broken apps that won't work in Wine. If we can get full Windows API and DirectX emulation for Linux, the Linux desktop will near instantly reign supreme, since there is no reason to stay with the costlier option.
... and I can't wait. Nearly all of my machines have an uptime of over a month (kernel upgrades ... meh, I still need to get the latest version of 2.6 on many of them), and I rarely see any kind of error whatsoever. I'm free of spyware, viruses, and intrusive popups as well. My programs work flawlessly and fast, and my desktop is able to be customized to the point of absurdity. Who wouldn't gladly switch IF their old software would work as well?
As for the GUI, KDE 3.2 is outstanding for most users. Even absolute morons in my shop can use it from day one with nearly no training. Similarly, the kernel is extremely polished and fast at this point (from a typical user's POV, assuming you pick compatible hardware), so these are non-issues. The issue at hand is software compatibility. Most users are not going to be willing to discard hundreds or thousands of dollars in software in order to save a hundred bucks on their OS. If we can get that compatibility down, Linux will reign supreme
IMO there is nothing wrong with the current driver architecture in 2.6 - what I believe is wrong are the old attitudes among hardware manufacturers with regards to releasing programming information, which forces them to write binary drivers. And not to sound dumb, but the Slashdot crowd is definitely aware of all of the problems surrounding binary drivers in Linux.
The hardware folks need to learn that releasing programming specs and allowing the community to do their own drivers (example: the Prism54 folks) is not the Kiss of Death. If they have trade secrets that they want to hide, then they can hide them in firmware or in a BIOS.
The community is willing to do the work of maintaing drivers. All the hardware folks have to do is learn a new attitude with regards to the propagation of open-sources OSes.
SCREW THE ADS! http://adblock.mozdev.org/ Proud user of teh Fox of Fire - Registered Linux User #289618
Not entirely true. I know several people I consider average users, and they had to ask where things went. I consider an average user someone who doesn't know they can change the desktop back to classic. I've yet to actually see one Windows XP machine running the classic desktop.
Not everyone who buys a new car wants to be forced to get under the hood and start monkeying around with things. Some people just want to drive. Microsoft has improved stability at least.
"Now imagine Billy-boy using Linux (maybe just to give it a test-run) and talking publicly about it. "
note the words in parenthesis (just to give it a test run) as in use it personally. it is *very* old news that M$ uses other OS's in R&D. Heck, how would they come up with Windows services for UNIX without using them?! See y'day's /. story, incase you missed it. no time to dig it up.
I meant *personal* use. Hope it is clear now.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
OSX does not have a consistent installer/uninstaller, and that desktop is the arguably the readiest desktop in the land. Some applications run installers, others just tell you to drag a folder onto the desktop. If someone cannot figure out an easy-install system like Up2Date, apt, or portage, then they have no business running linux -- because everything else in the system will still need the command line! Windows will have the command line again soon. If someone wants a "pure" GUI experience, they will buy an Apple.
When they say Linux is going to be ready for the desktop, they do not necessarily mean everyone's desktop. As the saying goes, that is why there are 41 flavors of ice-cream.....
===========
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Well, there's stuff that linux just can't do yet (certain classes of software, lots of hardware), so it pays to have both, especially on a laptop.
That's why I run XP (blech, but there are no 2K drivers) and FC1
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Except that asteroids become meteoroids once they hit the earth.
last time i checked, 90% of linux users haven't touched a BSD kernel. 48.3% of slashdot comment readers/posters are linux users (but most dual boot). and of course 89.4% of statistics are made up on the spot.
"Oh hell, forget it, this was to be THE year, but wasn't so let's shut the doors."
Good thing, because that would have killed Linux every year for the past 5-6 with the annual predictions that it will take over the world THIS year.
And those are the real problems with Linux. There are too many choices that developers and users have to deal with.
Lots of choice is what makes Linux popular with the tech-head crowd, but it drives Joe User away like having rabid weasels shoved down your trousers. Joe User doesn't want to give a damn what distrobution of Linux he/she's using. They just want to use it. And Joe Developer sure as hell doesn't want to deal with all those different versions of Linux out there. They want to develope to a single platform and get their product out the door.
Consider Windows for a moment. With the exception of deceased versions (Windows 3.1, NT 3-3.5, Win 95), most users don't need to care what version they are running. Most consumer apps run just fine on whatever version you have (unless they are some super-neat "upgrade or die" program MS has created or have specific needs that Win98/ME can't handle).
I've been using computers since 1979 and have used a variety of OSes and what always turns me back away from Linux (which I started playing with in 1993 with SLS 1.0) is having to always keep track of what distrobution I have and all the manual work that goes into making apps work. Sure, it's gotten better (metric buttloads better), it's still a pain in the ass.
Before Joe Sixpack is going to embrace Linux there needs to be a serious consolidation of the OS and desktop. There isn't room for two GUIs in the Joe Sixpack userspace. And there isn't room for two (or more) incompatible distrobutions. Joe Sixpack doesn't want "Mr. Ed's Tottaly Boss Linux". Joe Sixpack just wants "Linux, damnit!".
As much as I want to like Linux, I think Mac OS/X is going to kick its teeth in in the desktop space in the long run.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
No flames. Do realize that as long as Linux is as modular and open as it is people will create their own distros, desktop managers, and so on. However, A computer reseller can standardize on a single distro desktop manager, a company can also. I assume when you limit your mention of desktop managers to only KDE/Gnome that you are aware that there are many more out there.
About Linux using Windows...well, he is a developer, and if you are writing code to run on a specific platform, you need access to that platform to as a minimum test it on that platform. I am learning Trolltech QT, and I use a USB drive to quickly move my source code between my Linux and Windows XP boxes in order to test it on that platform. The code itself is platform neutral, but it does look different on each OS and so I need to know if that will cause any problems.
Another reason you may need access to more than one OS is while you use one as your "main", the other is necessary because that one specific app you need only runs on the other OS. You may have plans on writing a replacement for it, but until then you have the other OS around as a temporary fix.
Now, how does all this tie in to Linux as a Desktop OS? From the standpoint of "switching" over from Windows to Linux it can be very confusing, true enough. Resellers can standardize and provide support which would make it easier for end users to find answers to their questions. Companies can do the same.
Perhaps a better answer is for a consortium of businesses to work together to build a "Corporate" linux distribution. Not only would this distro cater to corporate users, it would provide tools to make it easier for IT staff to manage/support that distro. Something similar to MS Active Directory/Novell LDAP would work.
Home users who purchase from resellers could get a pre-installed distro supported by the reseller ( say, Dell ) and that would make it easier to use. People who rolled their own systems could still be
overwhelmed by the sheer number of distros available to them, but then again usually these types of people rolled their own just for the privilege of having such a choice.
One last thing ( that was mention above ) is standards. Not that all applications have to look the same, but their data should ( data files include documents, databases ) be standardized enough to move between applications of similar functionality.
All said, I feel Linux is ready for the desktop technologically, its the installed client base that is lacking. If resellers and companies pick up on Linux distros, home usage and software development for Linux will skyrocket. There will be new problems to overcome as it becomes more popular, but these are normal "growing pains"
I can't afford a sig!
9x->XP has a rather large learning curve... All of those new "features" that they added really cause confusion among most people. Changing configuration settings in XP, for instance, has been muddled in the effort to make them "clear." You can set this back to the 9x way, of course, but most people are not going to do that.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
We must know different average users. Most of the average users I know would never try to change a setting. :) I usually have to make the rounds about once a year to clean up their messes.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
What does it mean to say that this will be the Year of the Linux Desktop?
Does it mean that he thinks this is the year it will be a viable choice for the mythical Joe Sixpack or that it will gain popularity with said Mr. Sixpack? I never really understood what that meant, exactly.
I've been using Linux on my desktop exclusively for 2 or 3 years. Does that mean that, for me, 2000 was the Year of the Linux Desktop?
I think without knowing what he means by the statement we can't really evaluate it.
-Tom
The temperature in Helsinki in January is -6 degrees Celsius. That's 21F.
The average sauna temperature is 80 degrees Celcius (=176F) around the year.
This means the average January temperature in Helsinki is actually 37 degrees Celcius (=100F). In the summer it's even hotter in Helsinki. (80-6)/2=37
The problem with Linus was that they probably never had a sauna in Helsinki city apartment.
If you don't believe, do the math yourself!
I can't agree with you more. Choice is great for Us (and by that I mean the tech-head community), it is death for Joe Sixpack. One standard is what Joe Sixpack wants and needs.
And for those of you who would deride Joe Sixpack because he's not up to your standards of user-leetness, you should be aware that Linux NEEDS Joe Sixpack iif it's ever going to be more than a fringe OS. And for those of you who think that Linux going mainstream will kill off your leetness, get a damned life.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
During the 50's, 60's, 70's, and somewhat into the 80's, we fought against communisim. It was bad becuase freedoms were taken from people. We showed that wether a communist, a dictator, or a fascist, that there was no real security. We could go in at will.
Now, we implement laws that mimic what we fought against (check HR 2417 as well as pat. act.). We are slowly becoming exactly what so many gave their lives to fight against.
BTW, we already are playing. This has been going on forever esp. in this country (and others). Why here? Because we are the melting pot. It is easy for somebody to hide here becuase we can not possibly look at a person and tell if they are the "enemy". It will always be that way, even if we become the old soviet union or china.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
May be 2004 will be the year that E17 will be released!!! :-)
and for those who use GTK or QT will discover EWL.
and for people who use Gnome or KDE will try the
Enlightenment
and a new live bootable distro called Enoppix will be launch
E rocks!
Is that the licence that allows you to take somebody else's hard work, change it a little bit, then sell it as your own and keep the source secret?
Of course that was 5 years ago.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You know, I never had any problem watching a divx, browsing the web, emerging the world, running bittorrent, and burning a cd simultaneously on a 2.4 kernel. The mouse cursor might get a little choppy, but 2.6 has fixed this right up. This is on a relatively moderate system. 1800xp, 512mb ram, kt266a chipset. I never had any problem playing music and web browsing simultaneously on my old p200 either. I don't know what your problem is. Buggy audio drivers? Forget to turn dma on with hdparm?
As for apple, the reason it went with the mach kernel was undoubtedly the more liberal license.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I'd very much like to back you on this but unfortunately I had a completely different experience about 2 weeks ago. That was when I installed OOo on an old P200 unders W98 that I gave to my cousin. A few days later she asked if she could have the same menus as in the course she had some time ago (she didn't even know she was asking me to install MS Word).
I just told her to try it like it was and we would see if she really needed to have *exactly* the same menus.
IF I could find music software comperable or superior to band in a box, transkriber and some other thing he has( I forget what it is). For a brilliant person it's strange to see him so completely helpless when it comes to computers. I don't think I've ever met anyone who has had their computer infected as much as he has.
So where can I find music software for professional classical musicians?
Amazingly enough, on my Dell Latitude C610, I have given up - after hours of effort - on ever getting my built-in Orinoco wireless to work under Win XP or Win 2K. It is a dual boot system, and in Linux it was a piece of cake, but even with Dell support files, flashing the bios, everything I could throw at it, it just doesn't work. Of course, it is an end-of-life item, so no support from the actual manufacturer.
While troubleshooting before installing Linux on the laptop, I noted that Knoppix auto-configured the wireless properly. So, I knew it worked, which led to the endless fruitless attempts to get it functioning in Windows.
Even more interesting to me was that when I was searching for tips on getting it working under Windows, I found 10 helpful Linux links to every 1 helpful Windows link. That's the kind of support that Windows can only dream of, and it believe it shows the strong future of Linux and of free software in general.
If you read closer, I said "deal with" does not have to mean "produce software for". Releasing the specs openly would qualify for dealing with Linux, though they would probably also want to produce drivers themselves in order to have a product that is useful when it ships instead of waiting for 3rd party developers to build the drivers and get them introduced into the distributions.
The most useful thing of course would be for the manufacturers to do both -- develop their own drivers for the most popular consumer-oriented distros out there -- Fedora and SuSE, and then release the specs so that communitity-oriented distros like Gentoo and Debian can use it also.
501 Not Implemented
Uuuuuuhhhhhhh, apparently you did. All your TPS reports are using the wrong cover sheet. So I'll make sure you get a copy of the memo, Ok? Yeeaaaaah.
you guys really have to see the website http://www.bushin30seconds.org/ ads campain to increase the awarness of the mass... enjoy!
If that doesn't sound like a pr0n site... You won't trick me this time AC!!
First linux needs more standards.
I don't think the Linux desktop is ready yet. It's still buggy, has plenty of issues with usability, consistency and lack of quality software in important niches (think Quark Express, Quicken).
Things that need to be fixed in order for linux to kick off 2004 propertly :
- better X windows implementation. Is Linux right when he says there are advantages to X? As opposed to what? What can I do with X that I wouldn't be able to do with other systems. And how easy is it to do these things : export my display to another screen on the network in the middle of an X session.
- changing resolution shouldn't require editing a text file and restarting the server. The X implementation should be able to take care of all of that graphically.
- Gnome needs to feel/be faster. Right now it feels slow even in 1Ghz+ speeds. It does one thing right though with usability and consistency.
- KDE needs to unklutter their interface. Almost all software is ridden with too many buttons, widgets and watchamakallits. They need to either use a HIG like GNOME does or create their own HIG which they should follow. Of course KDE doesn't need to make it mainstream but if it wants to it will need serious usability work done.
- Expose is a great Mac feature. Expocity showed us a way to do it but it was buggy and horribly slow. If this could be improved to be as fast as the Mac implementation we would have a desktop that lots of people would desire. It would be in a sense really nice to see something like Quartz on Linux too. But hey I could always dream.
Of course some lame guru will probably tell me that I'm just ignorant, that I'm too stupid to use KDE, too ignorant to understand the power of X, too blind to see that Linux is already a great desktop, bla bla bla.... What I say to him is that if doesn't undrestand that simplicity and ease of use is how you shift bits of code from the status of mere code to the epiphanic hiatus of masterpiece.
I'm a programmer, and use windows only for development as I'm use to my editor. Are there any options for text editing on Linux, besides vi and emacs, that have simular capibilities as windows text editors, such as Ultra-edit or Multi-edit?
-1?
has there ever been a clearer example?
He's more than a kernel hacker, he's an open source leader. Part of his role in the community is to set direction, identify problem areas, and do all of those other things that leaders do.
But weren't these political things exactly what he didn't want to do in the past? He always emphasized that he wanted to do a good job on the kernel without the ideological 'overhead' which some other prominent figures put so much effort into.
X amount of billion nerds just watched there commercials.
---
My pronunciation is pretty good, because I spoke arabic when I was a little kid. now I don't know alot any more (besides cursing obviously).
I think it's funny how it's difficult to insult someone directly. You always end up cursing his/her family.
"Be careful or be roadkill" - Calvin
both links are from '99... :-p
seems like very old news to me
What people hate the most is not having a driver at all for their fancy video card. For a hardware company, supporting linux right now is hell! Sure, they could realease the source code... bzzzzt ! No they won't ! Bye, bye ! End of story.
The greatest impediment to adoption of Linux on the desktop in the home or office is the Linux community themselves.
Linux and Unix in general forces a transformation of the entire approach towards the computer in its users. People become Linux followers and boosters only after this transformation takes place.
Basically, Windows users see the PC as an analogue' ( a model with controllable parameters and comfortable guidelines) to the tasks for which they use the machines. Windows, to be functional and useful, mirrors and reflects the world and this elaborate and expensive interface is the key to the PC's productivity.
Unix on the other hand, demands that its users master a highly symbolic computing environment based primarily on the motif of arbitrary symbols linearly placed on a command line. When Linux/Unix users complete the process of changing their entire approach to computing to fit this 1970's era approach, they find that they can do many things with command line manipulation that can't be done easily or at all with Window's GUI interface.
This gives them the illusion that their OS is more powerful. However in reality the Windows GUI analogue interface is more powerful because it is easier to learn and therefore easier to manipulate. This makes it more productive and profitable for its users.
Linux/Unix will start to make strides on the desktop when its users begin to realize how seriously far behind Microsoft they are in the areas that computers are actually used for and where they deliver the most productivity gains.
The Linux/Unix community needs to discard the entire command line mentality and start paying serious attention to ease-of-use and interface issues before ordinary people will take seriously their claim that they and their computer environment is somehow actually better than Windows.
Seriously.
Thank you,
is cold and dark throughout most of the year. I don't blame him for not wanting to go back home. Most of the northern europeans are like that... soon as they see the sun (e.g. in the tropics, on a vacation), they tuck tail and run from their country. Who wants to live in mostly cold weather anyway :)?
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
I think the thing is, Linus, despite being the Godfather of Linux, has not been expressing this sort of sentiment. In fact he's for years seemed to mostly be saying "yeah the Desktop isn't really my concern, maybe something will happen."
This would indicate the fact that he's turned around and is now saying "yeah, Linux is probably ready for the desktop" means something, or at least indicates that this opinion comes from careful thought and not just blind promotion. My guess is that he is mostly making this statement now because his part of Linux-- the kernel-- has, with 2.6 and the new preemption and scheduling system, recieved a very considerable amount of improvement in the way it performs in desktop situations.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
I LOVE LIVING IN FINLAND!
What better environment for playing music and making songs? In cold stormy lonely dark winter nights we gather together and enjoy the music and the company of others! Finland is the pool of creativity, sensitivity and emotion!
Finland has something in similar with Twin Peaks. That's the best way to describe it.
I find it hard to believe anyone would invest the time to learn how to run Linux so they could play TuxRacer...
If they want an OS more stable and secure than Win32, FOSS software, and so on, that's understandable - but only an insane person would install an OS for a game as primitive as TuxRacer.
Methinks you need to take a step back from the precipice of zealotry.
Omg! He said penetration!!!
Actually the situation with drivers is getting worse. There are a lot of binary drivers that only support older kernels and new ones do not appear (Cisco wireless for exampe).
Unless Linux can let hardware vendors release binary drivers that work for more than a month, it will always be behind the curve.
Of course it is very hard task, but commercial OSs have done that. Can Linux?
Erum, though it was 2003...... or was it...
Julius Caesar - Act I, Scene i: "What mean'st thou by that? Mend me, thou saucy fellow!"
I would like to see some links to back up your statement that people have been claiming since 1998 that "the year" of the linux desktop was coming. I remember several pundits stating over the last year that this was the year that Linux on the desktop would start becoming viable and that is exactly what is happening. I am not aware of any such claims previous. Can you enlighten me:
Well? What!!
True, but irrelevant. I'd guess it's because Linus doesn't give a rip about Slashdot.
It will never be time for Linux on the desktop as long as there is any reason to ask end users to compile a kernel.
For great justice.
And 2004 is also the year of Duke Nukem Forever.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
I too am of the opinion that you will have to pry windowmaker out of my cold dead finger. While more of scientific user (vim, octave, latex), the wife needs programs like abiword and glabels. I don't mind the programs but they require a good chunk of gnome to install, which is kind of against my philosophy of having a nice clean (small) version of GNU/Linux on which to do my work.
Taxes are outrageous in Australia. 60% for the upper income!
Shit.
Linus probably wants to move where the cost of living is cheap and where its warm.
Pick southern Florida or Bermuda. Hell, if I were Linus thats where I would move!
Finland is waay to cold and dark and Silcon Valley is expense.
Cheap living and full tropical climate.
I may pick a cool city like Austin or Seattle as well.
http://saveie6.com/
The kernel deals with drivers and hardware support. If Linux takes hold of the desktop, it'll have to support every printer, webcam, joystick, video card, etc. out there.
The monkeys over at KDE and GNOME trying to figure out where to put the banana on the screen will figure it out...eventually. But hardware that just works automagically is a prerequisite.
I agree, I don't think Linux should fall into the trap of pandering to the lowest common demoninator, the greatest common denominator is where we should be aiming. Windows is at a cross roads, the push for greater stability, and security is increasingly moving them into the lower edge of where Linux and mac is at on the upper edge.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Business: with Office, Groupware and good company database support.
This will be more or less mainstream pretty soon I think, since the effort is more or less coordinated and has serious backing from major players who still remember when it was cool to snub a mouse or a gui.
Home: iLife, Office, Email, Chat, Video-Chat and a few nice games (think more Tetris than Quake here). Also drrrriver support for all those gizmo's out there, starting with video, camera's, iPods and the like, scanners, printers, cardreaders, but also midi and more esotheric stuff.
This, I really don't see happening soon. There's not a big enough incentive to make this a serious group effort and your average consumer is a fickle beast.
Still, it's nice for Linux to get so much attention.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
> Taxes are outrageous in Australia. 60% for the upper income!
47% is the maximum income tax level actually
Advanced users are users too!
Someone elsewhere in this article's comments posted a link to the Register pointing out the problems Munich is having with their all-Linux program. Heck, they're still using VMWare to run the Windows apps on them.
I use Linux at home, my girlfriend uses it. I started migrating developers at my work. From my experience it takes our developers about 2 days to adjust. For some or other reason they all love CVS (Visual Source Safe being what tied us the most to Windows).
In fact there is nothing that I want/need to do that I cant do on linux.
The free one.
Yeah, but they have to keep your original copyright notice intact, so you know they'll eventually cave in to their guilty consciences and release the source.
What makes Windows often the better choice and sometimes the only choice isn't any technical reason, it's the huge software library, being preinstalled and in general being known/established among current users/admins.
If it hits the earth it is a meteorite.
***General Consultant to the Human Race*** My opinions are free. You get what you pay for.
I had a great time there - but it was mid-summer and the Feast of St John. But there are other opinions.
and let them innovate.
so true..
So, Windows Explorer's search function is more powerful than grep because it has a GUI? If I'm renaming a series of files, I'll be more productive clicking on every single one of them and typing a new name than I will typing one rename command? I don't know. I'm not really convinced that easier to learn == more powerful.
Or maybe it isn't more powerful. Maybe I wish for so many features of Linux when I'm stuck using Windows not because those features would help me do my job better, but because they help me feel special. I should discard the elitist command line mentality and get with the "digging through menus for hours only to find out that some things just can't be done on Windows" mentality that people seem to be so content with.
COMPUTERWORLD : ( IDG NEWS SERVICE ) - IBM Chairman and CEO Sam Palmisano has challenged his company to move to the Linux desktop over the next two years, according to an internal memo written by IBM CIO Bob Greenberg in November and leaked to theInquirer.net, a U.K.-based Web site, this week.
"Our chairman has challenged the IT organization, and indeed all of IBM to move to a Linux based desktop by the end of 2005," Greenberg wrote. "This means replacing productivity, Web access and viewing tools with open standards based equivalents."
The company has formed a new Open Desktop project office to facilitate the move, which will involve contributions from Greenberg's office as well as from IBM's software and research groups, according to the memo.
The memo was written by Greenberg in November and circulated to select members of his team, an IBM spokeswoman said yesterday.
She downplayed the significance of the memo, noting that the company had no specific plans to move to the Linux desktop. "This [memo] was not a directive, but a challenge to an internal team," she said. "It is routine for IBM to challenge its internal IT team to rigorously test new platforms and technology inside IBM."
The open-source operating system Linux and the OpenOffice business application suite have had some high-profile successes over the past year. The city of Munich and the government of Israel have both announced plans to drop Microsoft Corp.'s products in favor of open-source alternatives.
But the open-source revolution has yet to catch on at the corporate desktop. Linux represents only 2.8% of the client operating system market, according to IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky. Market research firm IDC doesn't expect that figure to change significantly over the next three years.
Kusnetzky said a switch to Linux could make sense for some parts of IBM but added that an effort to move the company's entire workforce of 316,000 employees seems unlikely. Developers working with other operating systems such as AIX or workers with software or procedures that have been tied into the Windows platform would have difficulty moving to Linux, he said.
But, Kusnetzky said, "my suspicion is that if IBM is like many computer suppliers, most people in finance, accounting, human resources and sales could be well served by a Linux desktop."
Austin isn't that cool. And Seattle sucks.
... might disagree with you. She uses Windows at kindergarten and linux at home. No problem at all.
;-)
But then again, she may be way ahead of most Windows users...
You mean that I have to wipe out the Linux Desktop system I have been running for the last 6 years and start all over? That just sucks.
I thought GNOME had lost the battle for the heart of desktop users
Steve
I think desktop linux depends on one thing windows piracy prevention.
If people have to pay for windows then they will switch to Linux. Its that simple. Consumers always choose the cheapest product.
If the interface mattered to anyone, we would all be using Macs.
I agree with you. I have heard Linus stated "Desktop is a key market. We need to take control of it." It was in 1995. Kernel version was 1.2.x.
Since that time he said a lot of things about Linux but never said "It's year of Desktop" or "It's ready for Desktop" as long as I remember. I believe he has something extraordinary about Linux's readiness as Desktop OS.
on a linux desktop and its apps? no, absolutely...so forget pushing linux and its wms to the blondie tasty lady that works at the hr.
... I have been hearing this for the past few years and I still personally believe that Linux is a year or two away. It made great strides last year, no doubt about it, and it will continue to make strides this year, but I still feel that there are a few major things really holding Linux back when it comes to widespread corporate desktop adoption. Need a shining example? How about the ability to cut and paste more than text between applications. Heck, sometimes even cutting and pasting basic text between certain apps can produce interesting results.
If I had to venture a guess I would say that 2006 will be the year that you begin to see fairly widespread Linux adoption on the corporate desktop. That is, of course, unless Microsoft drops the ever loving hell out of its prices to give Linux a run for its money. We've seen them pull crap like this before and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they pulled something like that again. Signs of this are already out there. All you have to do if you want a discount on Microsoft server software is to mention to the Microsoft sales rep that you're seriously looking at Linux and bam, the prices seem to drop almost instantly.
It reminds me of a very appropriate quote by Gandhi. "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win." Well ladies and gentlemen. First they tried ignoring Linux, then they tried laughing at Linux, and now they are gearing up to attack Linux. We all know what happens next.
It will have more users when it has more support...
"But what you mean, how many times did you call microsoft?"
That not the kind of support desktop users use, they usually ask some friend. Maybe few years ago there wasn't m(any) people that desktop users knew that use linux, today there's but now it's another problem, the programs people use is very diverse.
I use slackware, blackbox and shell, and i've received a lot of questions of friends about "how to do that in mandrake, windowmaker, gnome, kde..." or "which graphic program that do that" that i couldn't answer (because i'm was offline at the moment or i really didn't know).
More than a lot of "geek friends" to solve your questions i think linux also need to stabilize in few major distros/apps, that geeks can talk with their friends.
And for Kde/gnome people: no way i will use bloated software, try to reduce memory/processor needs!
Desktop Linux ...
Gaming Mac
Secure Windows
Linux has a long way to go before it'll be ready for the desktop. Sometimes it can take up to and including an hour just to install something because you have to go looking for its dependencies. I know this isn't really a problem with Linux itself, but with that and several other things taken into consideration, I don' think Linux is ready for the average user yet.
http://www.training.edu.cx/ac.html
She's one ugly bitch too!
Save Goatse!
TrollBurger
Interestingly, source control is one area that MS has never appropriately addressed or provided decent tools for.
.NET suite.
They bought VSS and basically have done nothing with it since. They've made their dev. tools play nice with it, but from what I can see it hasn't changed at all. Still even uses the old style file browser (no desktop/my documents shortcut.) Not even a new version with their beloved new
VSS is trash really. It corrupts repositories all the time, confuses user accounts and won't let go of files that are allegedly checked out...etc. Worst of all it's not even network based. It relies on windows file-sharing to make it even usable in a networked environment. The reporting sucks, etc. Anyone who has done their homework on source control options knows to steer clear. VSS is not a serious tool and certainly not something that should be used in a production environment. MS won't even use it. That should tell you something.
I'd venture it's because the Slashdot community holds their villians to a higher standard than their heroes.
Or maybe because he doesn't makes Microsoft and MS Windows and its license bad with every breath he takes. In other words: he may be critic of them, but he doesn't spread FUD. Most times he simply doesn't care and openly admits that.
If Linus had bad-mouthed Microsoft with every speech, I dare say he would get the almost same backslash as Mr. Gates would get.
Keep an eye on which arguments are silently dropped in replies. Not always, but often times it's very telling.
Beats boring San Jose which has traffic jams as late as 11 at night. Yikes.
San Fransisco is cool but outrageous to live. Same as New York.
http://saveie6.com/
Yeah, I know, trailing the punchline...
Yeah, Windows XP is probably the dumbest looking thing I've ever seen. Whoever chose the color scheme needs to die (I think that Aqua in Graphite mode is awesome; I use Liquid for my KDE apps and Crux for my Gtk+ apps because I like both). My little brother saw it when we got a new family box and he asked if there was a way to make it go back to the old look so now his desktop has the old Windows look, which was much nicer (did I mention that I like the way NeXTSTEP looked? I run Window Maker...) but still fairly primitive.
Looking at my family, I realize that not very many people find Windows easy to use so the whole ease-of-use argument is gone. I'd rather have everyone in my family running GNU/Linux so I could ssh in and fix things instead of driving half an hour each way to the middle of nowhere to fix stuff when I have other stuff to do (although I did get $100 for that trip...). On second thought...up with Windows! It makes me money :) More seriously, I doubt that e.g. my sister would notice if she were running Windows or not. As long as she had something to "go dot-comming" with, a word processor, and AIM she'd be perfectly happy. The problem comes when you have to install software; I'm not sure how difficult this is nowadays (I use apt-get on the command line because that's how I've always done it, I don't know if there are any easy graphical tools for people that don't know how to use stuff like sudo).
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Man, Windows is never going to win at this with the Win32 let's-make-the-easy-stuff-hard-heads obsessing over the GUI.
YHBT
YHL
HAND
There was evidence to prove that Overly Critical Guy is a lying cocksucker, but he deleted it. Think independently.
There was evidence to prove that Overly Critical Guy is a lying cocksucker, but he deleted it. Think independently.
There was evidence to prove that Overly Critical Guy is a lying cocksucker, but he deleted it. Think independently.
There was evidence to prove that Overly Critical Guy is a lying cocksucker, but he deleted it. Think independently.
Our VSS repository *HAS* been corrupted.
Too right, mate. Its fully sick!
Completely OT,
but as there are presently 666 comments I thought it good to get rid of the devils number...
First, let me say that I agree completely with the parent post (not grandparent). I love my CLI, it is a flexible, powerful, tool. To be completely fair however, unlike books, failing to use your comandline correctly can have pretty catastrophic consequenses ("rm -rf /*" anyone?).
Imagine if you misread a sentence in your book and the book immediately burst into flames, yelled rude things about your mother, kicked you in the nuts and then disintegrated...
Thats the CLI for you. A powerful ally, but it can hurt you bad.
More like having summoned a demon* to use as a servant, than reading a book really.
* The fire and brimstone type, not the zeroes and ones type...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
... I have a hard time thinking what else could be more important that what enables you to make a living and be a celebrity.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... about concentrating efforts in a good desktop OS????
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Migrate all your data, hardware and applications from an old Windows machine to WindowsXP, the later shinny new from the manufacturer.
If you think that is painless you are a consumated masochist that has forgotten what pain is.
You say everything works and then you gon on a tirade about having drivers and what have you.
So which way it is? Is it painles or do you still have to look and find wirelesssdrv2333.exe file for your wirless card?
And don't start me with email.
And what about oolder, perfectly functional hardware? In Linux it just works, on XP, good luck finding those xxxxdrv.2.34332.exe files you need.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Bullshit.
This friend is 60 y.o. and is so dead tired that he phoned and asked me "doyou think I should install Linux?".
He wants choice, and choice is not going to be dictated by one person, it will be dictated by the needs of people.
You want something dead easy were little or no configuration is necessart? Well, 2 or 3 choices of Linux will be up to the task. What is worng woth choice> People can choose between different cars, TVs, DVDs or dogs.
What is the esoteric reason for which choice is bad for computing goods and services?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Stop lying. There are plenty of examples of stuff that does not work with Windows out of the box.
Otherwise we would not have the inccountable help forums, Windows For Dummies books and premium support from your favorite convicted monopolist.
Windows is clearly far from perfect, pretending otherwise is clearly dishnoest and disingenious.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You can't tweak the system at all. Period.
In Linux, if *you* don't want to tweak the system you don't have to, but you can.
Sad see so many people afraid of freedom of choice.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You are looking to find problems for which there is no solution, not the way one would go about deploying a solution.
If you need WiFi and want to protect your investment against the whims of a convicted monopolist you go and choose a WiFi card that is supported by your alternative solution. Unless your business will die if you can't stream video on a WiFi connection I don't see why this is a problem, you can use some of the PCI or USB supported solutions for your desktops.
I have a card reader that is not supported on Windows XP (dual CompactFlash/MMC). There is always hardware that does not work or is not supported in a given OS. That is not an excuse to stop solving a problem, you go and get a different card reader, or leave a few Windows machines around if only Windows will work.
What is your priority? To be in control of your software infrastructure? To solve a particular problem? Both? You decide, but at the end of the day not to be considering alternatives to get one out of the grip of a convicted monopolist seems irresponsible to me.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Well said. I never have any responsiveness problems either, but I'm running IceWM on a P3 800. It's GNOME and KDE that slow things down sooo much...
Of course you can not only listen to mp3 while copying files, and browsing web, but easily encode few while at it. And compile code. And watch divx. Or whatever you wish.
But there's no sense in ruining a good troll with facts so let's not tell anyone.
Jeez, your id is low enough you should know how slashdot works. His post was funny. Your post was just feeble. (Hint : global warming doesn't mean it gets warmer everywhere). Think yourself lucky you haven't been modded down on your whining, you whiner. When I get mod points you *will* be modded down, whiner. Fucking whiners; deserver to have "overrated" mods follow them wherever they go...
(and I know this is a little late) .. that Microsoft are reinventing the command line with a new CLI and scripting languages/techniques. You're a Microsoftie right? How come you didn't know that? Haven't been reading MSDN much? I mean jez I spend most of my time in a Unix environment but even *I* have to read MSDN for bits and pieces and I certainly wouldn't miss news like this.
As far as usability is concerned its a moot point and you've seen the other posts and yes there is some more maturity for the Linux desktop required before it will become viable for the average person. But damn it's so close it's not funny - if you haven't used DE's like KDE or Gnome in the last few years you have NO idea where they're up to. I mean *FUCK* the only time I have to go into the command line on my Gentoo box is to emerge sync/system/world these days. Every other bit of software works and works FAR better than Windows based stuff.
If beautified installers is what you're after then Mandrake/Redhat/SUSE et al has them down pat quite well. Productivity gains? How do u configure ur webserver under Windows - using the fscking confusing IIS GUI interface? I loathe that damn interface - Apache's conf file makes far more sense and is FAR more readable.
In short you suck - hand over your troll card on the way out.