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Ask About Running Windows Software in Linux
There have been recent reports about programs from Israel, Canada, and The Philippines that let you run Windows software in Linux. Are they really new? Can they succeed? Is this whole effort worth the time and trouble going into it? CodeWeavers CEO and Wine maven Jeremy White ought to know, since he's been working to bring Windows software to Linux users for many years -- with quite a bit of success. We'll forward 10 - 12 of the highest moderated questions posted here to Jeremy, and run his answers as soon as we get them back.
We've heard that Project David could be a CrossOver Office rip-off. To what extent is David a fraud and what are your options to combat those who would misrepresent themselves using your products for VC or even illegal/infringing sales revenue?
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
What is the timeline to get true windows program compatability in the open source operating systems?
Evolution or ID?
How do features and bugfixes get priority/take precedence in WINE? Is that likely to change?
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Why dedicate time (and presumably money) to continue the lock-in Microsoft Office and similar apps have in the workplace, rather than dedicating that time to make existing F/OSS software better, thereby removing the lock?
Why?
To state it simply. It seems that much of the Linux movement is made up of people who want to get away from Windows as much as they can. They hate Windows with a passion and want to get away from it.
Why not innovate and make new programs for Linux that are better than their Windows counterparts instead of adapting Linux to run Windows software?
What have been the most major hurdles in your projects (both past and present)? How were they handled in the past?
To what extent do you believe Windows binary compatibility on Linux could stifle development of native Linux solutions that compete with those Windows applications?
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
What are the biggest challenges in getting generic Windows software to run? So far, WINE has appeared to be mostly focused on games. While it's great that my son's Blue's Clues game runs just as well as on Windows (Thank You!), getting applications like Video Players installed tends to be difficult if not impossible.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Is there any value in Windows-apps-on-Linux solutions which force you to own a copy of Windows anyway?
Gerv
http://www.gerv.net
Do you receive any help or tips from developers at Microsoft? I don't mean illegal access to source code or anything, but maybe discussions on how duplicate certain methods to increase compatability and stability in WINE?
I understand that most of the work of Wine was in porting the Windows APIs. Have there been a lot of surprises outside of API porting that you've encountered along the way?
Of the various API libraries, are there any you thought would be particularly easy or difficult to port, that ended up surprising you?
I imagine at least some of the APIs worked somewhat contrary to their documented (or undocumented?) nature; in those cases have you chosen to go with the Windows implementation details in order to maintain compatibility?
Which API have you disliked working with the most?
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
How easy is it for you to sleep at night knowing your job is dependant on Linux succeeding, yet MS software staying popular? You are living in a paradox of a job!
(This is supposed to be a joke, not to insult the guys)
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
When you interview a candidate for an open position you should ask them if they know how to run Windows software under Linux.
When you are being interviewed, ask if you can run the required Windows software under Linux.
I'm not sure why people want to run Windows software in Linux. If you want to run Windows programs, run them in Windows. If you want to run Linux programs, run Linux. If you want to run both Windows and Linux programs, well all I can say is good luck!
will there ever be the possibility to run the famous windows worms and virii in linux?
---
awake and alert!
-Penguin Mints
but...
does it run Linux??
If you could reimplement the Windows API yourself, keeping it in recognizable form but making improvements, what would you do differently? What are your favorite and least favorite things about it?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Isn't trying to be compatible with MS what killed OS/2?
If people can code for windows and run elsewhere, why code for unix/linux natively?
Artists against online scams http://www.aa419.org/
If the EU really does pass the software patent law under consideration and the U.S. adopts that treaty that Bush is pushing, won't MS just be able to sue any compatibility products out of business?
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
What types of applications are currently being focused on to get working under emulation? Do you target specific applications, or catagories of applications?
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
The WINE web site goes a long way towards making the case for the API solution. Obviously, the VM solution seems to be easier to accomplish, would a hybrid solution give us a better result?
A lot of people I know are put off by the way applications running in WINE look on their *nix desktop. Are there plans to integrate WINE with a native linux GUI toolkit for a more streamlined user experience?
It's been coming for a long time, any idea as to when it will get here and what are the criteria for achieving that mystical 1.0 milestone!
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
What have been the biggest obstacles encountered so far?
...and what has been more difficult:
Poking the WinAPI and figuring out how and what it does?
or
Microsoft breaking what you do figure out?
has microsoft actually been as much of a hinderance as us Slashdot readers would expect them to be?
One would think with lots of API documentation available that a near perfect compatibility layer should have been feasible by now. This has not happened and many people (myself included) don't really understand why.
What hurdles stand between Wine/Codeweavers and a near-flawless Windows compatibility layer?
It seems like most of the effort so far has been to get office productivity software (ie. Microsoft Office) to work on Linux. However, there is a market for low cost home computers that Linix could help to fill if the educational software that kids use (such as the Reader Rabbit series) could run on Linux. Why is this potential market being ignored?
Do you have any funny stories about making this sort of thing work? Ever discover embarrasing or silly stuff about a developer? Seems like your line of work would lend itself to those sort of things.
"Derp de derp."
So at some point Linux will work on and with more old hardware than the newest versions of Windows.
And will be able to use Wine to run crusty old applications better than the newest versions of Windows. (Microsoft's biggest enemy to getting people to use its new products has for many years not been any other company but its own installed base.)
For people outside first world corporate IT departments that transition time when Linux appears more attractive will be sooner. How soon?
How do you expect the transition to desktop Linux to play out?
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I had the dubious honor of testing a Windows app that was ported to Solaris a few years back, using a Win32 translation library (not WinE, forget the name of the library). Not only was it 5-7 times larger than the equivalent U*ix app, it was 7-10 times slower.
So I'm wondering what provisions are being made to maintain performance levels in the libraries themselves. Simply mapping Win32 API's to U*ix API's and providing some compatibility stuff won't cut it if my Win32 apps run on U*ix system like poorly written recursive shell scripts.
...and you run and you run and you can't stop what's been done...
Simple question that comes in mind, why would you want to do that in first place?
Most office suites have come far since their first release and most of them are pretty usable already.
Sure there are many custom programs that were written 15 years ago which source has been lost 10 years ago and porting to other platform isn't possible.
But question arises, should you keep running those or migrate to some other software and renew the hardware running aswell?
For many people/companies this is question of expense, if the migration process takes too long, it possibly means losing lots of money during downtime if everything doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
From my point of view, this running windows applications on linux is just some insane hype term that just won't die away.
I don't want to see linux running outlook express and thus spreading all email viruses as well as those n+1 unpatched windows boxes out there.
Would people actually install important patches to windows software running on linux?
The platform difference would probably cause thinking like "hey, I'm running linux, I don't need to install that upgrade", and thus another million spam drone boxes appear.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
People could continue to write Windows applications knowing they'd run on OS/2, so there was no incentive to produce OS/2 native software.
If your project enables Windows software to become fully compatable with Linux, do you see companies choosing to only produce a Windows variant?
Will full compatability force Microsoft to release Linux variants of its software?
Will full compatability neccesarily mean people changing their OS to Linux?
Indeed, do you feel full compatability ever be possible?
correct me if I am wrong, but doesnt the whole windows emulation thing come down to whether or not you can utilize the drivers, namely the video drivers... if you could run PC games JUST AS WELL on a Linux box then a Windows box... i think it would boost Linux sales into the roof... what do you think?
Have you found any attempts to break WINE? Programs that in your opinion had code put in just to make it difficult for WINE to run?
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
In the event that you succeed in porting the Windows API to Linux, have you thought of adding a few... extensions of your own? And, if so, what would those be?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
-- ... :)
....
.NET on Linux .. then why did they write a VM that builds with linux ?. (before you say anything , their GUI stuff are all wine based).
What I want to know is, if I install Mono, will I have to cease relations with my computer until it goes away? Now how did that get in this thread
Hmm.. I wonder if the software patents Miguel talks about might affect Mono itself
Oh, well they're using Wine to run
Is the current focus on a broad compatibility or making specific (but large userbase) applications work?
Where should the focus be?
Will your efforts be a success when Crossover and/or WINE have equal compatibility with WIN32 applications as does Windows (i.e. not very good except for MS products), or will you have to be better than MS at making applications work?
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Wouldn't it be better more productive to bring Linux functionality to Windows (in an intuitive way, unlike Cygwin) to make that 97% aware of the potential their computer holds?
It seems to me that telling someone "Use this system with a steep learning curve; it's a lot better and most of your Windows programs will run a lot of the time." is a lot less likely to work than admitting a lot of people will find Linux daunting, and trying to meet those people half-way
The only surefire protection against Microsoft infections is abstinence. - The Onion
This is a conspiracy by Windows and SCO to ruin Linux!!!
Will .NET cause a convergence of binary programs to this one standard?
.NET CIL be the end of cross-platform binary incompatibility?
Could forcing the huge catalogue of traditionally Microsoft-only software to
You've probably noticed that people's noses get bigger as they get older. That's because old people are huge liars.
Do you ever get disheartened when Microsoft announces a new API, as that means you've suddenly got a whole load of new code to replicate? DirectX would seem to be a prime example of this. How do you see .Net/Mono in relation to Wine? Do you think they will ever become the prime method of running Windows applications under *nix?
How does a project like Wine protect itself from Microsoft building compatibility insurances into its OS and App code? In other words, MS is legally obliged to provide an OS available to third-party developers; are they also obliged to keep their Apps to be running /runnable on other systems?
Most importantly perhaps, if/as MS shifts to an Internet based deployment mechanism, are they obliged to sell-to or patch apps on Linux-based platforms?
If the answer to much of the above is no/sort-of, is an MS-Office 2K era bundle of software maybe sufficient for a few years as MS will maintain backward compatibility for a good while?
What options/alternatives do you see Linux gamers having with regards to DirectX emulation for popular Windows games that don't have Linux equivalents? Do you see better support for DirectX API in the near or distant future?
How scary is Longhorn for WINE / CO? What problems does it introduce, if any?
Reader Rabbit and his ilk are the only reason we still have a Windows computer in the house (but never on the net!). That won't last forever: either our kids will outgrow that, or Wine will get good enough. Our youngest is 1, so they have about 17 years to liberate our family from Windows, or it's too late.
See what I've been reading.
I could care less about most Windows software, but I still use Quicken.
What is the easiest way to run Quicken (98 under Win 98) and can this be done without any risk of corrupting data or creating other errors?
I know of many projects (like TransGaming's WineX) that are commercial and made for the idea of running windows games on Linux. My quesions are this do you feel that this is the correct way to get a developers to slowly switch over to Linux, or do you belive that it would make more sense to make complier and library that is more 'friendly' for game development? Also, what do you feel is the largest factor that slows the production of games for linux?
Is it perhaps one of the issues that is slowing down adoption of Linux on the desktop?
Are you guys working on a deal with any of the tax software publishers to ensure their software runs under Wine each year?
If not, would you consider it?
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
... wish I had mod points today!
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
"If the EU really does pass the software patent law under consideration and the U.S. adopts that treaty that Bush is pushing, won't MS just be able to sue any compatibility products out of business?"
If MS wanted to sue someone out of business they would have done so already. Wine and SAMBA have special spot. As someone mentioned earlier its a paradox. Both products are dependent on linux and windows to succeed. I doubt Microsoft would want to ruin something that makes people dependent on win32 applications. In any case they don't need any stinking laws to screw someone. They could buy them out.
Programs running under wine however simply look just like windows programs making them a bit "alien" on unix desktops. Do you think it would be a good idea that programs running under wine look and feel more like native programs?
At the present moment, TransGaming Technologies, which implements their own version of Wine (WineX) seems to be both the poster-child for what's good and bad about running Windows applications (games specifically) on Linux.
Of all the games they list for compatibility, only 8 games score a "5" for useability (meaning: no glitches, no 'minor irrirations'). That's 8 out of a virtual gazillion.
While some trumpet this as a promising turn in the tide towards Linux gaming (as opposed to waiting for native ports), many feel that it's trading the virtues of one OS in order to subsidize another.
What is Jeremy's opinion on TransGaming's approach to 'Windows apps on Linux' in light of this?
(and thanks!)
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
Do you think that WINE will have to become a full emulator/virtualisation suite (or even be distributed as a merged set with an emulator) in order to fulfill the demand for a complete Windows replacement, i.e. VXD's, DirectX, drivers etc?
I can see someone Lindows-like who will try to sell, at some point, "Windows on Linux", i.e. a copy of Linux that boots up a Windows-perfect interface and runs and installs anything just like Windows would. To achieve this with the majority of hardware drivers would require emulation or some kind of virtualisation. Do you see this eventually becoming a part of mainstream WINE in order to improve compatibility with older or heavily-tied-in software?
It seems to me that there are two good approaches to running Windows and Linux programs on the same box without switching between operating systems. One is to use Wine under Linux and the other is to use Cygwin under Windows. What are the advantages of each approach?
I like my beverages with warning labels!
It'd seem to me that the biggest problem with Wine and its derivatives is that they're constantly chasing a moving target.
Since MSFT is, to some degree, held hostage by a need to ensure compatibility back to Win 98 (or perhaps, Win2k), why not create an independent standard for ISVs industry wide? Freeze a Win32 API set that meets the needs of most ISVs, call it something like OpenWin32, and get the word out that if writing to this API will ensure that software works on BOTH Windows and Wine-like constructs.
Creating such a thing would be expensive - there'd have to be developer tools and compatibility suites created - but it'd not only help crack MSFT's lock on the industry, but it'd be a potential revenue source for Crossover (who better to create such resources?), and help popularize Windows software on non-Win platforms.
My likely misinformed $.02
Jonathan
Running linux + vmware allows me to run windows within linux. I know some will say WINE and other emulators are more native etc etc.
But based on my experience, vmware is still by far the best emulation for running any windows apps on linux. Yes, that does defeat the purpose of emulation since you still need windows technically.
>>There have been recent reports about programs from Israel, Canada, and The Philippines that let you run Windows software in Linux. Are they really new? Can they succeed? This is a late April fool, right? Ye, it's called XWindows--runs windows on top of Linux just fine.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Many, if not most FOSS apps are developed as a way to scratch an "itch" for a developer; a task or problem that isn't solved by current software. The Wine project's itch could logically be construed as the inability to run a Windows program on Linux. What was the app that you couldn't live without; the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back?
I'm a wine user, windows user, and linux user. It seems that games under wine work slower then the same app under windows.
I would have thought that because the linux filesystem is faster then fat32 (the fs I'm using under windows) it would be faster in that respect. In other respect it should be equal.
Where are the current bottlenecks and will it ever be close enough to a windows platform that a wine'd application will run as fast as windows, and without any noticable differences?
(BTW, I'm not complaining, the wine crew have done a fantasic job thus far!)
One major problem I have with people who are currently on windows is: Financial and tax software. Microsoft Money doesn't work in Crossover Office. I know that Quicken 2002 works, but often people don't like switching after settling on a financial suite, and a lot of people use Microsoft Money. Are you planning to try to get these certain problem, and popular, applications to work in the next Crossover Office? I feel that if applications like those seamlessly worked in linux, a lot more people would be able to transition to linux.
I hear a lot of talk about binary compatibility with Windows, but not so much about source-code-level compatibility. What sort of efforts, if any, are being made toward letting people trivially recompile existing Windows programs to run natively under Linux/X? Have any commercial software vendors considered taking this approach?
You can't really buy out an Open Source project that has a lot of support in the community like WINE has. There are too many people who want it to succeed. All MS can do is keep hiring away the top people, and there will always be more that step up to the challenge.
I believe MS would love to see WINE fail because WINE represents a stepping stone on the migration path away from Windows. It makes it that much easier for a company to start using Linux. Once they find out how much better applications work under Linux and how much more stable and secure Linux is, it's likely they'll go the rest of the way and discard all the Windows applications.
Microsoft will use any means legal and illegal to destroy competition. They've already demonstrated that by flaunting consent decrees. They know it is cheaper to pay the penalties and keep doing business as usual than to make the changes imposed by the courts.
Microsoft has a corporate culture that is built around the slogan "Kill the competition." I see no indication that anything has changed at MS despite the fact they've been convicted of monopolistic and unfair business practices twice in the last few years.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
The purpose and value of WINE seem quite clear to me. In particular, I believe that WINE is of great assistance in helping Windows users who want to move to Linux (or who are trying to convince others to do so).
I think it would be particularly valuable for large organizations that want to move a large number of desktops to Linux, but who have a couple of obscure or custom Windows apps that are holding them back. Since the corporate desktop is Linux's next frontier, WINE is particularly relevant now.
I do not feel the same way about ReactOS. Though some good things have already come from it (proper NTFS support for Linux) I think that it helps MS, while Wine helps Linux.
Also, it appears to me (am I wrong?) that CodeWeavers is a responsible member of the open source community. They appear to care about the success of Linux and OSS, as well as their bottom line. Of course, though, it is the developers who have contributed to WINE without any pay who deserve my appreciation the most.
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with CodeWeaver or WINE or anyone involved with them.
Once WINE gets to a point where it can run most all Windows applications and is usable to the average Windows user, do you believe that it will cause more users to migrate to Linux? Why or why not?
I question you trying to install windows video players under linux as being a very smart thing to do. It's much better to use one of the linux native players like mplayer http://www.mplayerhq.org or xine http://www.xinehq.de these would likely run with less system resorces as well, as they've been optimised mainly for linux systems.
Quickshot
Has the release of the section of Windows 2000 source code had any effect on development? Or are you not at liberty to say?
If Microsoft were to release more source code (legally, not the leaked source from a while back), or if Microsoft approached the Wine team and offered access to portions of the Windows source code, would you accept it? What if it involved an NDA or adding non-GPL portions to Wine?
SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
Aren't you worried that you'll corrupt Linux with the viral Windows licensing scheme?
I was under the impression that you could only patent the implementation of an idea. If MS were to become litigious bastards would they not have to prove the offending code and make their own visible as well?
And mod me offtopic, but what I've been wondering is how would anyone know if there is a MS employee working on an OS project, and using MS code in it for the express purpose of discrediting OS at a later time?
I've seen people saying "This linux stuff is hard, it's not for me.." after looking at fluxbox and gnome interfaces and trying to find that start menu... What are the chances of them using linux?
I have had some extensive use of both wine and VMWare, and to be perfectly honest have found wine to be lacking. I realise that, being free software, wine has certain economic & ( dare I say it ) "ideological" advantages, but for most of the programs for which I actually need windows compatibility, I find that it simply doesn't ( yet ) cut the mustard. Also, it seems that the approach you've taken for wine of mapping libraries to their linux equivalents rather than doing actual emulation produces a vast number of compatibility issues that need to be resolved, and keeps the advancement of the wine project very slow. Could you tell me what technical advantages wine will ultimately bring once its reached full compatibility with windows, as compared to a solution like vmware.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
Perfect Valid Question!
Already applications are moving towards requiring win2k/winxp, and so I'm afraid it's just not possible to have a system where vendors use win9x compatible APIs, because they're already moving away from supporting installs on win9x at all.
One of the biggest setbacks I see in companies desires to embrace Linux is legacy applications. This has risen to be such a problem that Microsoft XP has 'compatibility mode' functionality to run these antiquated applications. Granted they probably should have gotton rid of that old cobol program years ago, but they use it today and they call it critical. If Linux can run their proprietary software, then they'll do it. But if not, then they'll have to keep their Windoze computers around. How is Linux going to compensate for this? I could understand if it was only a few programs... I'd hire some programmers, but try taking on like 20 to 30 thousand apps?
My question: I can see that security holes that come from Windows OS code shouldn't effect the CrossOver Office Win98-like implementation of the APIs. Security holes that come from the MS application's code may or may not be present in that environment, but how do I know? What types of MS security updates apply to my CrossOver environment, and which don't? Are any of the security houses (like e-Eye) testing for vulnerabilities in the Linux/CrossOver (or Linux/WINE) space?
As to those who ask "WHY?": I run Office 2000 and IE under Crossover Office on Mandreake 9.2.1 because many functions at work require the MS apps. Our test report is generated by a template and macros under Word 2000 that do not run under OpenOffice. Several secure web sites I have to access are not supported for any browser except IE. I can't change these things, but I have the freedom to not run Win2K for my desktop OS. So Crossover Office is a great solution for me.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. - Geek's corollary to Clarke's law
Hi Jeremy. One of the advantages I don't see Wine exploiting is that Wine doesn't have any financial need to constantly force users to the latest and greatest version of Windows. Microsoft of course is happy to deprecate features, change APIs, and so on. Why doesn't Wine offer different codebases as different "versions" of Windows are needed?
I've seen some of this -- as I setup Wine, I can select what kind of Windows widgets I want to use (95 or 98). But I've also seen some apps work for a while and then stop working as the codebase is updated. If I were able to say "run my BG2 game as Win 98" and "run my Office XP as Win XP" and so on, I could end up with a Windows that is more powerful and more capable than Windows itself. And possibly more stable too, if I can match my software to the version of Windows that ran it best.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
What kind of percentage coverage of the complete Windows API do you currently have? Do you check? Are you actively trying to increase the coverage as an explicit goal?
Is it possible, to run cheap or free Windows anti-virus-software on a mail-server?
What about the perfomance, if this task is possible?
Do you know of any Windows software publishers that actively cross-compile to support the Wine API? Have you ever seen an instance where a Windows software publisher has added support to Wine for something they wanted to do with Windows but that Wine did not yet support?
with WINE ... but can it run Linux?
In all seriousness, though, what are the odds that the developers of WINE (or a 3rd party) will write clear documentation to make installation easier in the near future?
Did nobody even read the google cache of their web page? They clearly stated that their "revolutionary" Windows compatibility was Crossover Office and Wine.
I think Wine really needs a standerized unix deployment methodology. As of right now, Wine is "self contained". By that I mean, you usually install it in one place for one peice of software.
/usr/lib/win32, which contains win32 dlls. Software such as mplayer and friends can install their DLLs here, and reuse each others.
/usr/share/java containing .jar files, and Mono having a central place to put them, etc.
.Deb building) system into there current Windows build system.
We need a standard distro supported Wine layout, such as
Similar to Java
Doing this would reinforce the fact that Wine is just one more Unix subsystem, like Java, Mono, Perl, Python, and all the others. Commericial Windows developers, who want to distribute there software for Linux, can integrate such a package layout (RPM building,
I sort of envision this creating an easier division of logic for WineX and Crossover as well. It means the common components of each could be shared. WineHQ could provide the linker, loader, and base framework, as they do, and other projects like WineX, could just provide implementations of Microsoft DLLs, such as DirectX, etc. Intead of what they are doing now (complete forks).
Hmm. Food for thought.
A lot of us assume that older applications/games (those written for Win95/98) are easier for Wine to facilitate than newer ones (those for 2000/XP/.NET). Is this indeed true?
If so, how long do you think it will be before Wine has matured to the point that we finally catch up with Win95? That is to say, I can install Wine and be confident that 99% of the windows apps targetted for Win95 will just work with no fuss? Same question for Win98?
I have been curious as to weather the existance of Wine and various other methods of running Windows apps on Linux have hindered the progress of native Linux ports of those applications. I remain undecided, but what is your take on the matter as you are directly involved in this scenario.
*TheDarb
This sig intentionally left blank.
CoLinux (the "Israel" link in the article) is for running Linux under Windows - not the other way around.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
But I never wasted my time figuring out how to do it in MS Office, either.
Regardless of the software I'm using, I find it much simpler to create a *separate* title page, then start numbering at 1 on the next page.
Then, zip the two together. Whatever compression you want, zip or gzip or bzip. Just so they're in one file.
I have a cron job running that waits a random amount of time (30 minutes to 5 hours) and then does a shutdown and reboot. This duplicates XP's Random Reboot of Death nearly perfectly, with the exception that it doesn't allow the filesystem to be corrupted :( I also run the BSoD screensaver for that "old sk00l" Windows feel.
I think to really do it right would require a kernel patch though.
What, if any, are the shortcomings in the Linux API's that make implementing Windows API's more difficult then they should be, e.g., sound, graphics, filesystem, etc.? Are you seeing any efforts to address these shortcoming?
Would you consider working for Microsoft if they offered you a job.
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
I'm sure the /. community wants to know.
if you could run PC games JUST AS WELL on a Linux box then a Windows box... i think it would boost Linux sales into the roof.
If you have to run the game on Windows after running it on Linux anyway, why wouldn't someone just run the games on Windows to start with, and eliminate the first step?
What would be involved in making CD copy protections work natively under WINE, without licensing the protection schemes from the vendors and doing a seperate implementation, like Transgaming does?
It seems to me that if you had a 100% MS emulation running, the copy protection would also function identically.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Why? Because unless you are prepared to write better (and unencumbered) documentation for each API, no one is going to bother to read it. After all, why should they when DevStudio offers all the help they need just by pressing F1?
And even if they did read it, it still wouldn't do much good since most software is written against ATL or MFC, or in a language that doesn't even hit Win32 directly. Not to mention that WINE would still have to support the 'broken' Win32 API anyway in order to run the tens of thousands of apps that already work out there.
In short this is a waste of time. A better approach would be to produce some porting tools to help people move their Win32 apps and build them natively using Linux using the WINE lib. That means scripts to turn nmake files into gmake files, wrappers for cl.exe, open source versions of libraries such as MFC & ATL. These libs alone are the biggest impediment to moving source code over at this time. It would non trivial to replicate to be sure, but necessary for a lot of code to move across. Even half implementations that did the more common classes (CString, CWnd, CWindow, CComObject, CDialog, CComPtr, CComBSTR etc.) would be very useful for a lot of projects.
Why run Windows in Linux, when you can :((( ) serviced by WinXP...
run Linux in Windows.
http://www.colinux.org
I like it very much.
I can work in X session in Linux while playing
pinball and have my modem (strange Toshiba software modem, closed source
Works great!
Lots of people seem to think that compatibility with windows applications is a "Killer Feature" for linux.
I fear it could "Kill" the linux developer community.
OS/2 was highly windows compatibile, and this lead to people not developing application for OS/2 -- they could just build it for windows, and it would work on OS/2. People never took advantage of the more powerful APIs and other tools available in OS/2.
From a developer point of view, developing for OS/2 made no sense, if I developer for OS/2 -- I get that market, if I developer for Windows -- I get TWO markets.
Do you feel this is a valid concern?
Microsoft is, obviously, pushing .NET as hard as it can, making every effort to deploy it as widely as possible.
.NET" i.e. partially in Win32, partially in .NET ? Is there going to be lots of thunking between Wine and Mono, or is the Wine team going to attempt to get Microsoft's CIL interpreter and other tools running on Linux?
What is the Wine project's strategy for enabling compatibility with applications that are not "pure
Furthermore, what are the pros and cons of each approach?
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
if linux keeps trying to run windows programs, it will always be lagging a little behind windows (the programs were written for windows). even if software comes out that lets you run windows programs in linux, microsoft will just react by making a new os that is even more convoluted and harder to emulate. what needs to happen is adding capabilities to linux that windows doesn't have. so people will think, hmm can't do this in windows, guess i'll use linux. i guess some can argue linux has stabilty and windows doesn't, but if you install windows2000 it's pretty stable out of the box, the instability in windows is caused by installing lots of programs.
Once Australia, Europe and India have software patents, there are not so many other places for developers to flee too. Besides, patents also allow (at least in principle) end-user lawsuits, so that cuts down the userbase as well.
When there are too many +5 modded questions, and the mods can't mod any higher ?
Sunny Dubey
I've been using wine for a number of years, for development work and general home use and I've noticed that the logs are fairly good at identifying missing functionality.
Have you considered using a client log collation tool to report back most used API's and back-traces from faults?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Is there any talk with Rational, Segue, or another automated test tools vendor about recording/playback automated test using WINE as a target platform?
Windows vendors want delivery targets - not "date releases" of runtime platforms. I work in Software QA... you tell me you want the app certified on Windows XP SP1, Windows NT4 SP6a, and Windows 2000... I'll do it. Same with Windows 98, ME, and 95.
But you start talking about Linux, and then I have to ask which base distribution and which release of Wine.
The only way to know your application works in Linux + WINE is lots and lots of grueling, manual test effort.
Multiply this by the number of Linux distributions, versions, and that Wine is often distributed by "date releases" not "versions", and it is impossible to support.
The same can be said about Microsoft's systems... wierd things that crash on 98 but work on XP... BUT there are automated test tools. Record, edit, cleanup and you have an automated test library that can be run against every 32-bit Intel version of Windows.
There's no such support for WINE, and there's no developer incentive into manually auditing such a liquid platform.*
*(And that's not an insult.. I happen to think most of the innovation is happening on Linux, but my job's hard enough without putting extra hours testing a platform that won't make or break sales. Without real SQA certification tools, any sensible Technical Support manager won't touch WINE either.)
At least in adobe's case, going 2K+ only has more to do with copy protection schemes than with API differences.
But, its true that Win98 is basically dead in professional market.
Do you expect WINE and Mono to move closer together or merge into one project when the next Windows OS ships with .NET as an integral part?
Perhaps the story contributer could clarify why he thinks Ignalum is claiming MSWindows runtime compatability?
"values of beta will give rise to dom!"
Some of my sharper customers are starting to ask about the possibility Linux deployment of our software. These are a tiny minority, but possibly very significant as leaders in technology adoption in their field. We're also thinking about reorganizing our products and rewriting some of them; Linux compatibility is not a must have, but it would be worth some effort to look at.
How would you say developing against WINE rates against the other obvious approaches for developing cross platform applications, namely using a cross platform toolkit and libraries (e.g. Qt) or using some kind of virtual machine (Java, Mono/GTK)?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Since the big-ticket item in corporate IT is support and not software, how does running Windows under Linux provide lower TCO - since although software costs will drop, Tier 1 support costs will increase?
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
Is, or is not, WINE an emulator?
-matt
PS: It's a joke, dammit.
Hit the money on the head if you ask me! :-)
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I am a freelance writer currently working on developing a small arts-and-culture magazine. Since professional copies of Adobe Pagemaker and Quark are expensive (and quite outside the budget of a starving artist), does anyone know of any OSS products that fill the same niche?
If not, would these projects allow me to run Quark/Pagemaker under Linux?
If efforts are made to maintain compatibility for older versions of Windows in WINE, is there a possibility that, in a few years, Linux will be more compatible with Windows95 and Windows98 than the latest versions of the Windows OS?
Whould it be easier/better to run linux out of windows through software like virtual PC (or something of the like) or to emulate a windows environment in linux to accomidate the windows software. sounds like either way you go, you'll get similar results, but virtual pc emulated the entire system, rather than just the os environment. thoughts??
How many bluescreens do you get in an average day while trying to perfect your product?
Wouldn't it be more useful for the long-term commercial viability of Linux to develop applications that meet needs Microsoft doesn't, rather than working to make Linux "as good as, but no better" than Windows?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
And why not just use VMWare?
If there's any secure way to use that shite, this is it.
I have used Wine on my desktop for about a year now, and I have noticed that while some applications work flawlessly with Wine, many other applications require copying DLLs from a Windows install - which dramatically increases compatibility, but is legally ambiguous. Is a 100% OSS implementation an absolute goal for the Wine developers, or is their a tendency to stop short of implementing full compatibility because the user can just "borrow" DLLs to cover the compatibility gap?
One thing I think that people miss in this Linux/Windows argument is the following...
We have a model of a successfull migration from one captive OS to another newer one.
And that's from the Classic MacOS to MacOS X.
What made that possible is the following:
- Support of Legacy Apps.
- A familiar user interface
- Easy install of new applications.
- Seemless operation of legacy apps.
So, I think for Windows users to be able to transition to Linux, they'd need to be able to run their older Windows apps as seemlessly as possible, and have at least as good an experience (as a user) in using Linux as they do Windows.
So that means more polish on the interface. Easier installation of programs (no user wrestling with dependancies. A smart installer, just installs the app. Click install, answer any necessary questions and it works! That's what Windows and MacOS X do.)
MacOS X was nowhere 4 years ago. But is now a mature and stable alternate OS. Easily as powerful (if not moreso) than Windows. Very similar to Linux, except the level of polish is present in OS X that is NOT in Linux.
If I had a Linux Distribution I could run out of the box, and use as easily as MacOS X, but run Windows apps on it, instead of Classic MacOS apps... You bet, I'd ditch Windows 2k/XP in a heartbeat.
I'm running MEPIS and Linspire on two boxes now. But the experience just isn't as smooth as Windows/MacOS X.
Give me that smoothness on a Linux Base, and I'm sold.
Target Windows 98 for WINE, and get that running smoothly and seamlessly, and then upgrade it to Win2k/XP functionality while the users USE the thing.
Targeting a moving target is why we still don't have a version of WINE that is complete.
How has the switch to LGPL affected contributions to the project, both positively and negatively? When the switch happened, there was a lot of noise from groups like Transgaming who needed to license proprietary technology from third parties, and the formation of the ReWind project. Has there been a noticable effect on contributions to WINE from outside groups as result of the licensing change?
- Stealth Dave
Evil is as eval("does");
Xen allows a computer to run both Windows and Linux at the same time(similar to VM on mainframes. It has turned out to be quite a bit harder than we anticipated early on to get Wine running well than originally anticipated due to the host of undocumented features Microsoft uses. Xen on the other hand appears to have the blessing of Microsoft(at least for the time being). I suspect that Xen will be out first-and will mean that folks that have a machine with Windows already on it will be able to continue using Windows-with badly needed adult supervision. If properly handled, the net effect would be the same:
You'd be able to run windows programs from Linux and Linux programs from Windows(both running on the same machine). IMHO getting the installation really down right will be important here--but I think that Xen really does have the potential to get a much bigger chunk of existing windows users also running Xen.
I have a bosses that are old mainframe hacker-they really liked Xen when it was explained to them. I suspect this will catch on.
How has the promise of development and testing from Macromedia for better support of Dreamweaver and Fireworks affected your work? Have there been any results from that?
IANAL, but I believe that if the apps are being released under the GPL, then the onus is on the publishing body to ensure that there is no infringing code in the project, to this extent all contributions must be traceable to the contributor. If code in this situation was found to be infringing, then the trail would lead to whomever contributed the infringing code. If this person was found to be working for MS then I don't see how ms could continue to sue. Obviously the project would then need to cleanroom code a workaround to the infringing parts
My other OS is also FreeBSD
What about essential professional apps that aren't office productivity related? I'll use Architecture as an example, since I am most familiar with it. But I'm sure there are many other professional level applications that could serve equally well in this context.
Apparently it's going to be a good while before any of the standard CAD programs are ported to Linux. I know that CGI shops use custom programs for rendering and modeling on vast farms of Linux machines, so Linux must be up to the challenge.
Architects and engineers have to be able to send files around to collaborators at other firms, who must then be able to manipulate the original files (add plumbing systems to buildings, etc.) So compatibility with the software being run on Windows systems(and to a lesser extent Macs) is essential. Furthermore, in my experience the learning curve to gain proficiency in one of the major design tools is particularly steep relative to other programs, so re-training reasonably highly-paid users is an expesive proposition, which makes being able to run well-known, industry- standard programs is even more important.
Is there a critical mass of users needed to encourage the consideration of particular software by those of you writing emulators? Is there even awareness of the potential market for such products? (These are users who regularly spend $2,000 - $5,000 per seat for the priviledge of running specific programs, if that helps the financial end of the argument. They'll pay for software.) Do the intense video requirements of these programs just make them more difficult to run in emulation? Do firms like Autodesk and Graphisoft (who are particularly paranoid about piracy, due to the "high-margin/low-volume" nature of the market for professional CAD software) go out of their way to discourage interoperability? Is there something I'm missing?
What are your opinions on the .Net platform, Microsoft's push of C#, and all these combined together that are in practice creating a new API for Windows Longhorn called WinFX? What will Wine and Codeweavers do when the new API replaces win32?
Also, as Wine is an implmentation of win32 API for x86, what will wine do now that Intel and AMD are both replacing this instruction set with the new AMD64? Is wine only going to rely on AMD64's ability to run x86 programs nativly? Or are there any plans to port wine to other platforms, namely AMD64 and IA-64?
--
how long until the darwine project comes in a nice happy installer for Mac OS X users? What do you think this would mean for Mac users? Would M$ drop mac office?
Wine has an option for this; mainly they go for NT type windows compatibility, but you can change the option reported, which does affect certain things... definately the dos emulation has come a long way but still isn't up to say... dosemu or dosbox.
It might end up a PC emulator, but the fact it emulates the API's means it is much much faster than say... vmware or bochs...
[Wine Mailing List Lurker]
WINE will have truly succeeded, not when everyone switches from Windows to Linux, but when software developers begin to:
1. Code their Windows apps in a way which makes it easy to run them on WINE
2. test / support WINE as a platform
If this happens, XAML and all future Microsoft dominance is doomed. What we will end up with is the common set of easy, sensible Win32 APIs usable across multiple implementations, and the crufty, proprietary, unnecessary crap being ignored.
Doesn't anyone remember the other proprietary OS this happened to?
Grandparent is an idiot. Another API layer would inevitably slow matters down rather than a direct API call. Duh!
Grandparent, please don't operate heavy equipment or reproduce. Kthx.
That means scripts to turn nmake files into gmake files...
Most people don't even seem to use nmake files. Is there a free tool out there which can generate nmake files from Visual Studio project files?
So, Wine is cool but why not hit up the VMWARE/EMC guys and Win4Lin they run all the things Wine can't?
What do I need to do to get a free T-Shirt?
Get a free ipod.
-----------
WAP news
Two other issues. I've generally been happy with the generic support of Windows applications, including IrfanView, Garmin GPS software, etc. But stuff written in Delphi seems to work fine except for disk I/O, essentially rendering disabled demo software without the ability to load or save files. It seems like a CrossOver fix for this one specific problem might open up a lot of Delphi applications.
Overall, I'd like to see CrossOver as a way for people to migrate to Linux by enabling them to run custom software where there isn't a good open source solution, not as a method to keep running proprietary Microsoft applications instead of OpenOffice, Mozilla, etc. Yes, I know I'm in the minority with this opinion.
>> My ultraviolent Linux switch video.
What is the status of multimedia (i.e. full quicktime, Windows Media)?
Will Quickbooks be stable and usable under any Windows emulator for Linux.
In my copious free time I do some tech support for my wife's business. Her business is small business support (book keeping, HR, payroll etc.) The only reason that her business and the great majority of her clients are not using linux (or Mac even) is Quickbooks.
The killer app for small business IS Quickbooks.
Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. There versions of the various MS-Windows dll's and in particular the CommCtrl.dll (or something close to that-fortunately I have not have had make any install packages recently) has many, many, many fix versions. Some of the CommCtrl versions fix bugs which break applications that depend on particular bugs. Some later versions of CommCtrl reintroduce bugs after a version in which they were fixed (I don't know why) and the break in function may now allow some application which worked, then didn't work (as a result of OS upgrades or most likely an installation of some windows app which just puts its version of the dll in the system directory) may now work. But some application which need the corrective fix won't work anymore because the later fix put the bug back. In any case the presence of this .dll does not change the version number of the OS as reported through one of the many ways an application can get the OS revision number.
What you describe would work in a sane OS where things like this are managed better and where applications are not expected to patch system dll's on their own.
Naturally nothing is going to do everything, but a good tool could remove hours if not days from the process. Likewise with a decent subset of MFC or ATL that ran natively - something that took a fair stab at implementing the most common classes - document / view, windows messages, GDI and the ATL COM classes could make a dramatic impact.
Of course there is no silver bullet, but a good set of tools makes the task merely daunting rather than impossible.
Is there a critical barrier limiting WINE from emulating a win32 program to near undetectable differences?
For example, many games on WINE run slower than their counterparts, making new system hogging games not worth playing on WINE.
Is this a fault of the game, or some fundamental difference between Linux and Windows that WINE may never be able to compensate for?
Ask anyone who's only used windows 98, 2k, XP to sit down and use a Linux Box. They'll sit down, twitch their mouse, then ask where the program bar is located and why there's no My Computer icon. Most end-users dont have the patience to actually take the time to "learn" what they would have to learn to convert over.
Consequentially, until there's a consistent way to create a Windows-esqe look and feel that user can relate to its going to take much longer to bring over the household Windows Mom.
Not that it cannot be done, but to my knowledge this hasn't been done. (If you know of some projects that have done this, please do let me know. )
-Alex
I've tried to build some Windows projects from source code using Wine, but I always run into the problem of MS Foundation Classes (MSFC). I believe most developers are just copying the needed code out of the Microsoft package. Is there any other solution? Are there any ACTIVE projects working on MSFC? (I know there's a few dead ones.)
How does one handle the requirements with respect to third-party controls for use in a design environment and the use of license keys (which are stored in the registry) such as is done by Visual Basic 5 and 6 and Delphi (among others)?
Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us>
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Just a retard would like to apply that silly ms security patches while running linux, lol. So fuck everything trying to mix win & lin or lin & win.
Wine also has to suppose the actual encoded binary formats of windows. For example, it has to deal with functions the same way windows compilers do, it has to have a compatible memory model, it has to support the executable file formats, etc.
I agree that sometimes applications break due to differences between certain system components.
However, the number of applications that simply break 'cause the version checking code is faulty,
combined with the number of apps that works pretty well except for some obscure functionality no
one ever needs is large enough to warrant configurable version reporting for Wine and its subcomponents.
At least, when an application fails on a version check, I can then try to run it in the 'desired' environment,
before giving up immediately...
I'd be surprised if this makes the interview given that CrossOver 3 is OUT TOMORROW and yes Microsoft Money does start and appears to be usable. We only got Money starting at the last minute though, so it might still be rather buggy - why not download the demo when available and find out?
Have you considered working on the ability to run CADD applications, and if so is there any hope? I would consider this a true test of inter-operatability due to the structure of these applications.
My company was forced to switch to Windows because of one simple thing. CADD (Computer Aided Design and Drafting). The market belongs to AutoDesk's AutoCAD with the other major chunk going to Bentley's MicroStation. Both of these are currently forcing the entire AEC community (Architecture, Engineering and Construction) not to mention a good chunk of the Manufacturing and a host of other industries, in to using Windows. I know porting these applications is particularly difficult, and they run extremely slow in VirtualPC.
Is this an instance of a software maker (Intuit, in this case) trying to make changes specifically to thwart Linux portability efforts, or are they just legitimately evolving their code base in a way that makes it harder to maintain portability?
So what is it? Conspiracy or legitimate evolution?
-- Fratz, human
Honestly, that out of the three in question,CoLinux is the only one that is deserving of any credits.
David is obviously a rip of crossover office and wine.
and ignium linux doesnt have a running site anymore, which is kinda shady.
CoLinux is the only one that has tried to make any effort to prt one type of system to another out of the 3, though it might be in the exact opposite direction, they did it well. because now windows users can play with linux without having to repartition, and then do the hard stuff once they're familiar with the system.
Windows compatibility would be easier to add if open source operating systems such as *BSD and Linux would shift to a microkernel architecure.
What is the status of application file format knowledge? Which unknown file formats would be most useful and/or desirable to know?
OK, to apply some /. logic that I have seen elsewhere and been flamed for opposing.
Did they break in and steal the Crossover backup CDs?
If not, then what did they do wrong? They legally obtained a copy of Crossover Office, so what they now do with their legally owned property is up to them.
What? That is breaking the license agreement?
So let us get this straight. It is perfectly OK to copy Windows CDs as you are not stealing it, you are doing what you please with your legally owned property. But the moment we talk about a Linux related product, it suddenly becomes illegal to copy or break license agreements?
Get your acts together and work out where you stand. Either it is OK or it is not. You cannot have a stance where it is perfectly OK to break license agreements for one piece of software, but it is not OK to break the GPL or license agreements with Linux related software.
One item runs LINUX on Windoze, not vise-versa, the other two don't seem to actually lead to a product...must be vaporware candidates. And if they aren't free, where is the advantage?? The OS is not the only problem with windoze, inconsistancy from app to app is my main complaint, and thats not addressed by running win-apps on Linux.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
To what extent do you think Microsoft would attempt legal action to stall/eliminate development/production of software that would make it unnecessary to use their OS? And, as a tag-on, do you forsee future additions to Windows, such as DRM, to be problematic and do you think that Microsoft would consider adding things to the OS that work like DRM just to stop your software?
No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
As WINE comes to be able to emulate more and more of the Windows ABIs, do you think there will be any patent issues in the future? Currently, it seems like Microsoft doesn't see WINE as much of a threat, but as soon as WINE becomes a viable replacement for running Windows applications, it could sue WINE for patent infringement.
Daniel Ehrenberg
your competitor product win4lin by netraverse ( http://www.netraverse.com ) costs twice as codeweaver and needs a patched kernel. but offers compatibility for a much bigger number of applications, though remaining much lighter and cheaper than vmware ( http://www.vmware.com ). moreover win4lin can't run programs that require win2k/xp, but can run today the macromedia package.
another approach to solve the problem of having a microsoft application on a linux screen should be the one of xwinx / xopenwin ( resp. http://xwinx.sourceforge.net/ and http://sources.redhat.com/XOpenWin/ ), two similar but great ideas that tragically haven't been developed as they deserve.
should wine / codecharge require some standard kernel fixes acknowledgments from linus to get easier job for u?
what do you think about these different architectures?
why u think the market will prize your choice?
greetings,
ppp
> Re:Am I hearing this right?
No. It looks as though the Project David guys took a CodeWeavers project and slapped the Project David logo on it, thus claiming it as their project (which is really bad for oh about a million reasons).
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Breaking evil copyright laws / EULA's is sometimes a bad thing!
But only when you break the copyright / EULA of a company that develops for Linux. If you break the copyright or licensing agreement of a commercial organisation that does not develop for Linux, then it is a good thing and you are helping society.
Yes, it all makes sense now!
Hate to burst your bubble but the newer versions of windows don't use FAT32 filesystem. They use NTFS.
Creative Demolition
Are there any instances where developers have added code to specificly block WINE or to make their apps not run as well on it?
What is the relationship between WINE and ReactOS?
Are there efforts underway to share more code between the 2 platforms? (one example is MSVCRT/CRTDLL, is there any reason why both WINE and ReactOS cant combine their implementations of the MS C runtime into one that is aimed to be as bug free as possible and to alievate the need to run msvcrt.dll nativly?)
Which is the most legally risky part of the WIN32 api to implement?
Hmm. If that person, as an employee of Microsoft acting under it's chain of command, wrote/donated code under the GPL, it could be strongly argued that the community has full rights to that code.
If I understand your post correctly, you seem to inferring that Linux users have a double standard when it comes to software piracy.
:)
I'll define software piracy here as any act that infringes upon a lawful contract or copyright for a piece of software.
I have to strongly disagree with you. Not all Linux Users are Pirates, just as not all Pirates are Linux Users.
People on slashdot are mostly geeks. Some use Windows, some use Linux, some use OSX. Some of them might be pirates. But I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Piracy is OK - even if it's stealing from Microsoft - and I don't think I've read many posts to the contrary.
Oh, I'm sure there are some posts out there that you could use to try and prove your point - you get all kinds on Slashdot - but this kind of Slashdotter is far and few between,
Lots of people who are advocators of Linux use Linux products exclusively to the point where they only use Linux software, and have no MS software in their house. I'd love to see a slashdot poll based on that!
peace.
We all speculate about the DMCA being a major impediment to interoperability in particular. The WINE project has interoperability at its reason for existence, so I'd guess that if the DMCA was going to be a real impediment it would have affected WINE fairly early on. Other projects and FOSS development could well learn from your experiences.
In practice, have you encountered any real problems with building WINE's interoperability that were fundamentally DMCA-based? Have workaround (i.e. legal) solutions been put in place to address these issues? If so, what form did these workarounds take? Do you think the WINE project is sustainable long-term in the face of changing "specifications" from Microsoft and the constraints imposed by the DMCA?
But when we got half way through the project CodeWeavers hired him away.
How should I go about finding a new programmer?
Have you ever tried to get software manufacturers to test their own Wine compliance ? Of course a Microsoft would have no interest in doing so (quite the contrary), but a bus company that wants to reach as many people as possible with one electronic bus schedule CD might.
Dirk van Deun
Did the leakead Windows 2000 source code help you? At least to confirm you did a good job?
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
Wow, thanks for the info! It's apparent that I'm pretty ignorant of the current situation of CXOffice. I'm going to download the demo right now (For 3 that is!)
Microsoft is famous for its fairly restrictive EULA. I believe the EULA prohibits reverse engineering and disassembly explicitly.
If the WINE project could theoretically legally disassemble Windows source to learn APIs/ABIs, but not to copy source code verbatim, how much time and effort would be saved? How much of a threat do you suppose WINE would be able to pose to Microsoft's monopoly?
Do you believe prohibiting disassembly in an EULA is abuse of copyright and an illegal clause in a contract (the EULA)? "Disassembly" of music to, say, samples and written music would not be considered infringement of copyright, would it?
Gratefully,
GrimRC
Well Jer, I'd love to ask you about the CXO 3.0 release, but I'm afraid in this crowd the questions would never get modded up high enough. So...
At WineConf you were really interested in Jan Kratochvil's Captive NTFS project to run the native NT filesystem driver under Linux using ReactOS' ntoskrnl.exe and Wine. Are you guys considering development of any products that integrate Wine and Linux at a lower level with Windows drivers? In theory a similar mechanism could support Windows printer drivers under Linux as well as many other specialized areas. Or, is Linux hardware support sufficient that no value would be added? If you were interested, how much would you have to bribe Alexandre?
----- obSig
Much like OS/2, if Linux has full 100% Windows application running abilities, hardly anyone would develop for Linux anymore. Don't get me wrong OS/2 was/is a great OS, but it was a better Windows than Windows, so developers dropped their OS/2 native projects and sold 16 bit Windows apps that both OS/2 and Windows could use.
It is better to develop OSS projects and make both Windows and Linux ports, and help Windows users migrate to the OSS ports so they can eventually ween themselves off Windows and into Linux.
Besides, don't the emulators and WINE programs also run the viruses, trojans, adware, spyware, etc as well? We need an environment where these viruses won't breed.
Seems to me that the kernel should be able to load Win executables, rather than having a separate app for it. Have you tried to get Linus et al to accept a patch that'll make Linux understand Microsoft's executable format? It already knows a.out and ELF, why not throw in the win one as well? If not, do you have any justification for keeping the executable loader in a separate, user-space application?
Like what I said? You might like my music
When will we reach the point where the open source OS's start to crash as often as the Windows itself?
-el
quick heads up champ: FAT32 is actually quite fast
(certainly faster than NTFS). Efficient it is not, able to run large partitions it is not, but since it doesn't really do all that much (no journalling, etc) it is far from slow.
-d
Pipes on UNIX allow you to splice together the many small UNIX tools into larger applications quickly and easily in a shell script.
Granted shell scripts are slow in comparison to compiled code or even interpreted code such as perl, but for rapid prototyping or tasks where speed is not as critical as functionality, pipelines are awesome and pipes are needed for pipelines.
Pipes are a huge hammer for your software toolbox, giving you lots of power.
You can even create a relational database with pipes and the basic UNIX tools: sh, cat, cut, paste, sed, grep, wc, uniq and join.