Slashdot Mirror
The Internet Meets the Neural Net
orangesquid writes "OpenEEG is a system for getting data from your brain to your computer. Recently, work was resumed on scEEG, a soundcard-based system which may one day make home EEG systems very cheap (they currently cost a few hundred US$ to put together; there are, though, some potential cheaper alternatives). But, what research is being done into getting data from your computer to your brain? There have been some systems that inject optical signals into your eyes, but, what about direct neural interfacing? It seems EMF and light are one option; playing with neurotransmitters may be another. What do /.'ers foresee coming in this field? What research have you seen being done? Particularly, is any of this to the point where homemade, low-cost systems are feasible? Where can I find out how to inject signals into my head? Combining this with openEEG might lead to some exciting new levels of Internet addiction."
The sooner I can get that Google extension for my brain, the better.
Something just tells me that us geeks are going to demand a HUD of Slahdot if its possible with this technology.Imagine how much more interesting meetings would be?
Gaming will benefit from this technology -- that much is true. But what else is true is that the use of brainwaves in an Open Source setting will help us all to better understand the vulnerabilities of our brains over time (and there are likely plenty). Technology can therefore be developed to ensure our safety, without any future Dieboldesque security/functionality problems. Not to mention what we can learn about piles of different minds, perhaps even working together in unison.
While gaming will prosper from this tech, it's important to note that gaming will also lead this technology further than any other field, because of the fierce competition in the global gaming market. The rest of the world is going to play catch-up to gamers.
Controlling rendered environs in space using our brain, must be the first step towards perfecting the human-computer links we'll need to explore the deepest parts of space. I believe that Einstein predicted that we will need to eventually embrace a future where computers and human beings coexist and evolve together (and we're already doing that), but what Alan Watts, the famed Buddhist, said was that we should be utilizing the systems at our disposal to make our lives easier. Watts said that fears be damned -- we must find a way to free every human being from the slavery of the 9-5 grind. Don't think Watts was a fringe guy -- he was very insightful and grounded. If you haven't read anything by him, I suggest picking up
This kind of technology, if kept in the Open Source realm, can lead to greatness, in time.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
...homemade, low-cost systems are feasible? Where can I find out how to inject signals into my head?
:)
Homemade, low-cost, inject signals into my head... For some reasons I don't think this is one place for DIY
Uselessful technology (Air-Charged
Kungfu!
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
Considering how many times my Windows computers have crashed, I'd hate to think what Microsoft Brain Server 2008 will do to me.
Christ almighty....
I can't wait...All your brains are belong to us.
Just wait until MS gets in on this...the DMCA, Product Activation, and the RIAA will all collide in a giant Orwellian mess...
The real litigious bastards...
I'm still waiting for the time we begin to function intact with computers and become superhuman- machines with souls essentially. It's the whole idea of transhumanism!
(\_/)
(O.o) This is Bunny. (> <)
New braincells are total wildcards. They can be used for anything. Put a grid of wires over a 1000X1000 patch of neurons shortly after birth. Use the grid for io, teaching the baby to use the interface. Viola, a computer finger.
Called Spider-Man 2, I think. Anyway, there was this doctor in it, Dr. Otto Octavius, and he devised this neural inhibitor so his AI tools wouldn't be able to control him. That was fine, except it was fused in an accident. So, anyway, be careful when you plug computers into your brain, or this might happen to you.
It's more likely that we'll be able to use brainwaves to say, move a cursor, or input text to a computer than it will be to go the other way around. I really doubt that we'll be able to input data from computers directly into our brain anytime soon - the human brain is very complicated and varies from individual to individual. Would everyone have exactly the same input regions, for example?
Porn. I foresee lots and lots of porn in the field.
I for one, don't want to run the latest Microsoft security patch on my brain, with no idea of what's going on in there.
...but does anyone else find this to be creepy? I like having a physical separation between me and my net connection. If we had direct brain interface, could you imagine what the script kiddies would come up with? You'd open an e-mail attachment by mistake, and end up poking yourself in the eye for hours...
> from the where-can-i-find-out-how-to-inject-signals-into-my -head dept.
Easy, just stop taking your medication. Works for me!
And me too.
Who said that?
"But, what research is being done into getting data from your computer to your brain?..."
Duh, a monitor!
"getting data from your brain to your computer."
Damn, that is a tough one? How about a keyboard.
btw, I'm *trying* to be funny.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
This sounds like more of the movie to reality situation like in "The Matrix." I always had a problem with this type of system as it is similar to cheating off an exam in school. Someone can spend years learning something that could be transferred in minutes. Where is the fairness in that?
Second, I definitely would love to have a system where by my thoughts would control my computer. That would be my dream right now.
GroupShares Inc. - New Affiliate Program Launched
-------
artlu.net
Inherit the Earth by Brian Stableford had a very interesting play on this idea. Instead of creating direct neural interfaces (serial ports in your brain) why not use nanites? By allowing such nanites to create electrical pulses on/in your brain, it could be easily "confused" into thinking some sense was being triggered. That's what I'm waiting for...
When taping wires to your scalp at home, be sure to use a battery-powered device, kids. When taping a PC and its sound card to your brain, don't forget that 110 volts is getting rather close to your neural tissue. A lightning strike a few blocks away could give you a few more brainwaves than you bargained for, and if you alleviate that problem by using an off-grid UPS to power your 110 volt EEG, don't forget that it's still a 110 volt EEG.
:D
I'll stick with the low-power battery operated EEGs, thanks, but I'm all for hearing about other's hair-raising experiences with 110 volt devices. Truly macho geeks with no fear whatsoever might even want to build 220-volt powered EEGs!
No more need for studying... just find whatever information you need on the net and cram it into your brain! I like the sound of this. Well, that is, if the accruacy of such a system can be trusted. I for one, can't distinguish opinion from fact because I read /. too much.
MindGuard provides pyschotronic mind-control protection and runs on Linux. Try it, you'll see how well it works.
Optimistic: I don't forsee any development reaching the consumer level in the next 20 years
Pessimistic: well... >20 years...
I wrote an ask /. article very similar to this yesterday. My question was, will the integration of computers and our brains lead to practical immortality? Can a human consciousness, memories, and personality be transfered to hardware in such a way that the person can continue to learn? Duplication of the human brain seems to be the next step.
[PERSONALLY]: I would jump at the opportunity to be a test subject in any experiment of the kind. Imagine the power of a human brain connected to your cooperation network and the internet. Actually intelligent antivirus software, intelligent searches and an intelligent filing system. I would sell my brain for however long was necessary to any cooperation if I could attain immortality this way. [/PERSONALLY]
In nature, there are neither rewards or punishments, there are only consequences.
This device induces experiences that are similar to religious "miracles," where someone believes he or she has seen god. It does this by transmitting signals around your head.
I'm not sure if anyone ever commercialized it.
Another issue would be the following. Do we really want something to interact directly with our brain? Imagine if you will the world of tomorrow, where we do have direct nueral nets. Now imagine the equivalant of a computer virus but going through said nueral net. Instead of formatting a C:\, we have something that erases short term memory, or long term memory, or induces schizophrenia. I remember an old outer limits episode where society was connected to a nueral net. Any data you requested was instantly put into your mind, such as a book like Moby Dick. Eventually the computer that ran the system had a bug that started demanding more information input from the people. Stupid things like the number of grains of sand on the beach, etc. This eventually drove the population insane, even with the failsafes they built into the unit. The moral of the story is don't hook anything up direectly to the brain!!
I dont know about you out there, but can anybody else see a brand new population of mind controlled "borgs"???....Microsoft has perfected its system of accepting viruses, and bill probably has some of the best viruses to infect the net with MS or MS(LIKE) software/virus...SCO would have you believe the code is stolen, but Bill's mastermind business strategists, will just wait untill SCO is sunk, then launch the technology-platform thru Bio metrics.....the paranoids are after me
Time for a tin-foil hat...
Your brain has been slashdotted!
Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
I know Kung Fu.
Perhaps the more appropriate question is what conditioning might be involved in making existing mechanisms more efficiently related to whatever output mechanism (neural interface) is chosen to augment natural output systems.
good political satire
and failing
Being a brain-hacker would be a lot more lucrative than defacing web-sites.
So, do you think any 20-something female international royalty use the internet? Anyone got their IP's?
I for one see this eventually evolving into something along the lines of wetwire interfaces and the jacking-in seen in the Gibson books. Ono-sendai here we come...
I saw a news article on biofeedback in treatment for ADD and ADHD - applications exist to play games for training you to behave better.
AFAIK, add + adhd kids have messed up alpha waves (please correct me if I'm wrong), and the EEG machine listens to those. When they can conciously control the patterns of the alpha wave the game rewards them. Fairly successful too I heard. When I found out about it I instantly wanted to have a thought powered mouse.
I also read something about the USAF and biofeedback flight control systems. One of the problems a fighter pilot faces is sitting down and high G turns - blood drops out of the brain and they do "the funky chicken" - then black out. Women are better pilots because they have shorter distances from heart to head. If a pilot could lie down on his back, blood would be forced to the back of the skull rather than his feet; meaning s/he won't black out. The 'joystick' worked by finding electrical twitches fired along the muscles and responding accordingly.
Personally mouse gestures in opera are pretty cool. But I can't wait till I *think* "move back a page" rather than have to move a whole half an inch.
Also, if you guys haven't read it, read FireFox by Craig Thomas, about a thought controlled plane for more ideas.
Matrix styled cyber sex.
oh baby!
People have been doing that for years - they're called "RAVES" ...
I got linux on the brain.
Unless you're a genius, please don't attempt homemeade devices to input anything directly into your brain. That sounds worse than creepy, it sounds like mail-order courses on open-heart surgery. The only thing I can think of for less that $100 that interacts directly with the brain is the standard drill. Leave the rest to experts and people who know what they're doing.
Dremel with bone drill bit
Heat shrink tubing
13 Acupuncture Needles
Hookup wire
soldering iron
DB25 cable,
DB25 breakout box
9V battery
an observer.
Difficulty: Intermediate/Suicidal
Procedure:
Drill holes at various spots on your head. Solder hookup wire to non-pointy ends of sufficient acupuncture needles, and use heatshrink tubing to cover almost all of the needles, leaving only 1mm uncovered at the pointy end. Using the 9V battery, and a return path via somehwere convenient and moist (I suggest your anus, what's a little more humiliation if you've gotten this far?) test your response to electic stimulation at various holes and depths. This is where the observer comes in handy, as you might be in no fit state to write down your observation, or even disconnect the current. Once you've found a useful set of needle positions, wire them up to your breakout box and plug it in to your printer port. Write software to apply a signal to each needle under various conditions.
You could interface it with remote monitoring software, and a complete loss of bowel and bladder control could be used to indicate that a Windows machine on your network has crashed. Aphasia could be used to signify a loss of internet connectivity. And a throbbing erection could be used to signify yet another V1@gr@ spam in your inbox. Remember, you're limited only by your imagination and the rate at which infection sets in!
...the new ways to look at pron.
I want a beowulf cluster of brains
So, you wanna experiment with advanced homebrew human-computer interfaces; but you don't want to risk dangerous and painful do-it-yourself brain surgery in an nonsterile garage or basement lab.
What about: subvocal speech input a and wireless earpiece ?
>;k
There still are: monitor, lamp, etc...
But, what research is being done into getting data from your computer to your brain?
I think monitors and speakers work quite nicely for this.
...a beowulf cluster of brains!
Scorta futuere amo!
OMG this could be completely awful...Imagine trying to think of something and then all of a sudden A huge pop-up comes out of nowhere ruining your entire train of thought...Or worse...you get drunk and forgot to turn off your instant messaging client...You start to instant message your buddies what you really think about them...I think being disconnected is very benificial...The porn thing has its downside to...ever click on the wrong link?
I want my! I want my! I want my Eee PC!
Connecting your brain to machines sounds interesting enough, but what about connecting your brain to another brain?
That would really produce some interesting results, and all in all, for the first time oneself could really know what another person thinks.
"Particularly, is any of this to the point where homemade, low-cost systems are feasible? Where can I find out how to inject signals into my head?"
d00d. Maybe u should concentrate on getting a girlfriend first.
If everyone had equal access to the same knowledge, how could you be better than someone else? Sure, it may be great for things that you learn in school, but what if everyone had the sense of intuition and the amount of common sense? How could you suceed in a world where getting ahead could mean the same thing as falling behind. Of course, it all depends on how the system would be used, or the lack of the system being abused. There are obviously tons of "what if's" that could be addressed. It'll all be dependent on who answers them.
Just what we need is some hacker to upload penis enlargement spam (or even worse) into my brain!
DIY brain interfacing? no. I suppose this is the bad side of having a dual sci/sci-fi discussion board.
/. threads ever?
anybody have a top ten of the worst
serluny: how long did it took u to learn c?
ReDPriest:4.5 minutes
serluny:how did u do that?
ReDPriest:i downloaded it into my brain..i got a program to do that
serluny:what program
ReDPriest:download shit into your brain v3.1
serluny:how do i download it?
ReDPriest: go to www.downloadable-shit-for-your-brain.com
serluny:i cant download it something is wrong
http://bash.org/
You're going to be able to download stuff that can't even be seen. Censorship issues will be interesting since you won't be downloading sensory images.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Hugh Hefner was quietly sitting in his study, planning to take his grip on the balls of huMANity to the next level... I can just imagine how this is going to work out for gamers...no more 3 billion buttons to bind...never need to worry about graphics cards or system requirements... Anyway, who wants to bet that there is already a porno site trying to figure out how to use this?
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Getting logical, recognizeable data from the brain to a computer would a remarkable, world-transforming achievement!
It would open up the possibility of a certain form of immortality - of being able to save all the things that make a person recognizeably unique, and having the possibility of re-creating that. In effect, creating a society where death is more a philosophical concept than an innevitability.
Actually, the transfer in the other direction, computer-to-brain might not be something we want to be pushing anytime soon. The possibility of overwriting memories is the somewhat more creepy side of such technologies. What's the difference between killing someone and making them unrecognizeable by changing everything about their memories?
But to offer some way of saving human minds - forgetting virtual immortality, to be able to have your memories, your real memories there instead of some history for future generations would be an amazing thing.
Ryan Fenton
Jack off. [clap, clap]
Jack out. [no clap, no clap]
Major league baseball files suit against OpenEEG for patent infringement.
But seriosly folks all my brain needs is a command line interface...
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I sure hope it's secure whatever it is.
KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!
Would you be able to control what data really comes in and out? You know there are bodies out there just salivating at the opportunity to find out what you know--without you knowing they know what you know.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
Actually, I'm thinking of uses as an interface between living things. Put to good use - the ability to heal the sick through positive mental stimulation .. which gives new meaning to prayers. On the bad side - interrogation and extraction of whatever the interrogator wants.. will no secret we keep inside ever be safe?
Regards, Joseph
there have been some systems that inject optical signals into your eyes
Some systems??? All monitors come into this category.
What I'd be really interested to know is, well, if we have 32-bit CPUs and 64-bit CPUs, where would our brains score on that scale?
Our visual recognition systems are very complex. But it's long been known that you only need a 2-bit system for a shave and a haircut.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
Cue Orrin Hatch:
"If your nural interface shows that you were thinking about pirating music, you go to pound me in tha ass prision. If we catch someone pirating music online, we should be able to remotely destory their synaptic pathways!"
"Where can I find out how to inject signals into my head?"
1) Unplug coaxial cable from cable tv/cable modem (depending on personal preference).
2) Jam into back of head.
3) ???
4) Profit!
Nothing disturbs me more than blind loyalism towards some unrealistic and over-idealistic notion of one's nationality.
is available here. one of the most promising techniques seems to be self-assembling nanowires and sensors running through the blood vessels of the brain. lots of facinating reading.
What Future?
... there are days I still have no idea what's going on in there!
I saw this article a couple weeks ago about a scientist who used people's brain patterns in an MRI machine to move a cursor around on a screen.
It contains a lot of stuff about getting computers fitted inside your head that interact both with your brain and wirelessly with other computers; they enable people to do such wonderful things as switching off pain, and instant messaging. Definately worth a look if you're interested in this field, and a thoroughly enjoyable universe to experience too :)
> Whatever...
You might know quite a bit about neurobiology, but computer science operates with the unknown regularly. If the patterns are different or we can increase the varriance/sensitivity (ie: diffraction), we will be able to use them as controlling/communicating mechanisms. Again, this improves computer interfaces, not brain interfaces per se. Yet the inverse application of brainwaves is likely feasible once enough raw data is compiled on the subject.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I think we're in for a pretty interesting ride in this deptartment. There's some work being done with monkeys right now. I hear they can take on anyone in a round of 'Counter Strike'. I also hear they are kinda overweight and pasty white.
I started asking this question in 1975.
Astronomers used to complain (pre-Hubble) that observational astronomy was like looking at the sky through a dirty basement window. Imagine if the window was also painted and bricked over. There's thousands of people down there, some of them having conversations, some groups singing, and lots of them just ranting away at random. There's also a bunch of radios and TVs playing, all on different stations. And your job is to eavesdrop on one conversation. You know what it's about but you don't know what language it's in. You think you know what part of the basement they're in, but for all you know they're speaking over cell phones (no pun intended) and someone has left theirs laying on a table with a speakerphone attached so you can pick it up, but in the wrong spot. Oh yeah, upstairs from this basement party is a 24 hour bowling alley, and it's next to some very busy railroad tracks.
This is what us electroecephalographers are faced with in just listening in on activity.
We've got groups of cells of unknown number and distribution performing a task, physically intermixed with many more cells doing different tasks, and some of the cells are engaged in both, or in other ongoing tasks. We don't know how many of the activities we see, single cell firing, timing changes in single cell firing, changes in variance of single cell firing, clusters of cells firing simultaneously (or not, which may be equally important), all the way out to constantly shifting electrical fields with details as small as a synapse and as large as the whole head or more, are the activities of interest in trying to pin down one simple perception, like a single "click".
One thing we've learned in the last 10 years is that our technology has been so poor compared to the nature of the activity, that we've been missing probably a majority of what's going on, meaning most of what we know is based on the little bit we've been able to hear so far.
And you want to blast some signal back into the brain to make something happen? You need it to hit the target with an accuracy described above (and as yet undetermined) and you have to do it by shouting back through the window, paint, bricks and over the din inside, and try to be understood and you still don't know which language to talk in. The only way through the wall is to shoot a gun through and (hopefully) hit a person involved in the conversation you're interested in, at which point you'll know it because their dying words will be recognizable as part of that conversation, but then they die and you have to start again. That's the problem with implanted electrodes. It's either that, or your signal gets blurred just as much going in as it would coming out.
Large scale stimulation such as transcranial magnetic stimulation (which I also use) would be akin to finding your conversation by setting off fire sirens at points in the basement and seeing who got drowned out. Chemicals have the same problem.
After 30 years of considering it and realizing how little we actually know, and how unlikely it is we'll be able to do this without many, many years of work for an unknown amount of success (possibly only confirmation we did it, and nothing of interest transmitted to a brain) I have to think: The brain is so good at what it does and so bad at being a computer, and the computer is so good at what it does and so bad at being a brain, why would you want to cripple the both of them by hooking them together?
Yeah, OK, so Mindball is cool. I can get behind cool. Don't expect much more than cool toys and occasional short term successes with limited or no application for a long time.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I used to do that in the 1960's and 70's, but now I just stick with wine and beer.
No they're not. While they are highly flexible, the nature/nurture debate points in the direction that also a baby has certain predispositions.
I think it would ne fair if it were broadly available and not limited to an elite, which it probably would be at first. But think of when it spreads! Imagine if huge amounts of data were instantly available to you with perfect recall and control. Now imagine if everyone had this ability, with the added bonus of thought-speed communication with everyone else. This would be a fundamental change in the capacities of our species.
I don't want to imagine how fried my brain is going to get from this, straight out of johnny pneumonic. Geez, the keyboard and mouse aren't good enough for ya?
"In America, you can always find a party. In Russia, party always finds you."
Man, who is this tool and what the hell is he talking about? Slashdot always seems to attract such weirdos.
Oh, shit! Boss looked at me. I hope he doesn't know i'm on slashdot right now... eye contact... polite smile... nod at the projector image... and.... quickly write something on your paper:
"Joe. Is. A. Wanker."
Hah, that ought to fool him. Stupid bastard. "Oh i'm sorry, but we just don't have the budget to increase staff salaries right now." Dick. Here he drives around in a fucking Lexus, and i've got a 20 year old car thats about to rust itself out of existance. What a load of crap.
I should reala... ahh.... ahhh... oh no! I think i'm gonna sneeze! Hold it in, hold it in! Ahhh...!
{CONNECTION INTERRUPTED}
...
{CONNECTION REESTABLISHED}
Shit! Now *everyone* is looking at me, even that cute girl from region...
Ok, they all looked away. Good.
Man she has a nice rack. I'd like to get my hands on -- CRAP! She saw me! Oh fuck, I hope she doesn't know I was looking at her chest...
Waitasec, did she just smile at me? Hot damn, I think she did!
I hope that was a "Hi there" kind of smile and not a "You have snot all over your face" kind of smile though. I don't feel anything, but maybe i'd better check... got to be discreet here... rub my chin... aaannnd... clean! Whew, close one.
SHIT! She looked at me again! Look away, look away! Act uninterested you fool! You... OH YOU IDIOT YOU LOOKED AGAIN!! Goddamnit, now she probably thinks i'm a weirdo stalker or something...
*Sigh* Back to browsing on slashdot.
Waitasec, whats all this text? Is this thing on?!?
{CONNECTION CLOSED}
Something along the lines of a glitch or a freeze-up putting you into a comatose state. Thanks, but no thanks.
Please stop voting, you're just encouraging them.
What we don't understand very well, is how the brain encodes data of any kind - whether in the visual system, the auditory system or (though we may have a slightly better handle on this) the motor system.
We can model how an individual photoreceptor works, and we have a vague understanding of what happens at the first synapse, but after the second synapse it's largely a mystery. Visual processing occurrs concurrently with transmission (from eyeball to all the different areas in the brain).
For example, there are cells in the brain that we know react differently to different colours, but is that all they react to? Perhaps they only react to coloured lines, or will only react if another colour is or is not present in the background. And how do they transmit information - is it in the number of spikes they fire, or in the timing between these spikes. Can the information only be decoded if you correlate it with the firing of another cell (or perhaps a few dozen cells) amongst the zillions of neurones that are found in each CC of brain tissue. The answer is that don't know the answers to any of these questions. Textbooks talk glibly about parallel processing paths for motion or for shape perception; of 'colour' areas or 'edge detectors'. In reality it's a lot more fuzzy than that. What we don't know far outweighs what we do know.
So, we can already interface to the brain, but it will be a long time before we can transmit or decode detailed information. Maybe it doesn't have to be detailed in order to be useful. For example, we can show people a picture of a scene that they may or may not have seen before, and determine whether their memory flags up a 'match' - or nothing at all. We can make people see arrays of big blobs of light, but not a picture. But it still may be enough to aid partially sighted people.
So work away, but be modest in your aims, and humble. The brain is wonderful, but it is still largely a mystery to us.
I know kung fu.
I think the submitter believes that the EEG somehow magically pierces into the brain and that it would be a simple trick to just put some voltage on there and "make stuff happen."
No.
EEGs measure a gross aproximation of all signals it can pick up. You got something like 25 discs on your head trying to pick up any signal and then come out with a composite. Or you can look at each individual output and decide if there's some abnormalities. Heck, your cell phone is shooting 6 watts at your head and nothing happens.
Essentially, you're asking how to transmit to shortwave or something using your walkman.
That said, Dr. Michael Persinger does this kind of thing with a complex helmet which works with magentic fields, not EEG equiment, to affect the brain. The results vary, but he has pretty much debunked the religious and paranormal experience.
People are hardwired to be primarily visual. I doubt you can do a hack that will get better throughput than that already existing massively tuned interface. Ears are a close second.
Eyes are actually tuned to analyze tons of info and discard almost all of it. Lots of processing happens before the signal even reaches the brain. I may be wrong; perhaps if the goal is to get lots of info into the brain unmunged the eyes aren't the way to go.
BULLSHIT!!
Is that to keep signals in or out?
is to get the computer to understand commands from the brain.. until that is perfected it is foolhardy to try and inject signals directly into the head without understanding the consequences.
-
1) settle on a particular sound card, like the Creative Soundblaster 64 PCI, and engineering some trivial mods to allow it to pass 20Hz and below. Should be pretty simple.
2) If not, or in any case, just buy a cheap ADC. I bet you can find them for $50 that will talk either RS-232 serial or Parallel Printer Port or USB.
I am currently using a pretty good one that gives you EIGHT channels of 12bit Analog->digital, with USB interface and other I/O for only $110. (http://www.measurementcomputing.com/usb.html). I would bet that you can find even cheaper. You will want more than the TWO-channels that a sound card gives you if you want to be even semi-serious about EEG.
So if you can get a decent 8-channel ADC for $110, why bother building a complicated FM-mod/demod circuit that will probably drift all over the place just to get 2-channels while chewing up all your CPU cycles to do the acquisition ?
I watched something on PBS about how there is now a procedure that uses camera's (embedded in glasses) to "see" the surroundings. The 25lb computer that you wear has a plug that you plug into your head. This plug has 128 pins (8 bits, imagine that) that stick into your brain tissue. I don't remember what part of the brain they put it in but it was behind the ear towards the top of the brain. They then send small amounts of electricity to stimulate the tissue. This causes white dots to appear in a grid pattern instead of your sight. These dots are arranged in such a way that you can "see" corners and some shapes. The doctor admitted that the experiment does not have excellent results, but being able to see at all is worth while to some. Some have had great results (read 128 dots) and others have had less success. Also there was another doctor at a university that has been able to attach much more accurate connections (more than 8 bit) to the brain using a different technique. I think that this kind of research is amazing but scary at the same time. Imagine controlling your car by thinking.... They would never let me drive again!
Assimilate me!
If you're seeking to increase the bandwidth of information you can absorb, look at increasing the area of your monitor(s).
Now for input methods, keyboards leave a lot to be desired. I could probably enter this comment as fast as you can read it if I had a better input method. But would it be as Interesting? (or Insightful if you prefer)
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
Wouldn't you feel deflated if you didn't meet the minimum system requirements? Gives new meaning to being 133t if you exceed them.
"Hey, what are you up to?"
"Neuro-surfing."
"Oh cool.. anything good?"
"Hold on.. *closes eyes* Appearantly Duke Nukem is about to come out."
"Oh cool, where did you read that?"
"*closes eyes* let me paste it into your head."
"Thanks... *closes eyes* I wonder though.."
"What?"
"Do you have.. these... images and voices.. inside your head.."
"That's what this is all about."
"No.. these.. voices.. at night.. they haunt me.."
"What do they say?"
"3nlarg3 y0ur p3n1s now! |3uy \/|4gr4 N0w!"
I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
Imagine being able to link into a global memory database and share memories with everyone in the world. Visit a new city and automatically know the best places to eat, etc. And with augmented reality, we could tag people and places with notes for others, which is both fun and scary.
I'd hate to think that everything you've ever done may end up as a matter of public record, but it'd be great to know if the cute girl you're interested in has cheated on previous partners before you ask her out.
I can't wait to upgrade myself.
Does that mean I could install the Folding@Home client in my brain? If so, could I also covertly install it in the brains of my friends an family?
Due to the fact that that song in your head can now be downloaded to a PC, the Induce Act has been revised to include making a nueral net(Read brain) in homo sapiens illegal.
Yeah, shortcutting around the 20Hz filter seems a little silly. I did a fair amount of work with this EEG business not too long ago, creating an ad-hoc sensor network, indegrating ADC directly on the electrode. (Available here) These ADCs cost less than 20 bucks a channel, (total, with COM and everything) and in even modest quantites could be made for much much cheaper. I think there is simulaneously too much excitement over the possibilites of EEG, and too little work done to further the technology for both medical and nonmedical purposes.
Over 3 million confused since 2000!
Sleep is futile.
If i had an brain extension for wikipedia i could finally beat that Ken Jennings guy on Jeopardy!
On an episode of "Beyond 2000" in the early 90's I saw a man hooked up to a computer with a couple electrodes, he was moving a person around in a CG environment (similar to todays FPS w/3rd person-rear view) with his mind. He was able to walk forward/backward and turn left or right. I am very surprised that this technology hasn't progressed much if at all since then.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
What you mean I have to pay them each time I think about some song?
I think now would be a good time to implement "Project Tinfoil TeePee".
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
Now, elsewhere in this post is a pointer to the notion that one can "inject light" to directly stimulate neurons. This is grossly misleading. What they fail to tell you is that the technique that they are refering to: 1) depends upon either loading up neurons with a light sensitive compound that releases neurotransmitters, or 2) genetically altering neurons to activate with light. Neither approach is going to be too feasible or attractive to any of us. The first would require constant infusions of this compound into your brains, the second, well, would you want to alter your genes so that your children's brains would be light sensitive (Gotta keep junior in the dark... Oh no, he ran out into the sun and suffered a massive seizure...) All of the mentioned techniques are for researching neuronal properties only, in the lab. Which brings us to major problem number two...
Brain tissue scatters light tremendously. You cannot penetrate more than a few fractions of a millimeter without light, even laser light, scattering all over the place and it will not penetrate the deeper layers of the brain (cortex), nevermind the countless deep structures of the brain. So all those techniques mentions were really designed for "brain slice" work in a dish, or perhaps surface activations. I don't think you want your brain sliced up in a dish just to get direct input to your brain...
Of course, the parsing will be the tricky part. But once we have the hippocampal prosthesis, what's to stop us from creating other brain prostheses (other than the fact that implanting things into our brain currently constitutes major surgery)? For example, an amygdala prosthesis could help people with borderline personality disorder, since recent research seems to indicate that it is a *mis-wired* amygdala (due possibly to inadequate parenting and childhood psychological trauma) that causes the sudden rages so characteristic of this largely untreatable syndrome.
Or imagine the Anti-aphasia bridge. You'd never be stuck searching for the right word ever again. How about the enhanced cochlea? Super-hearing! And haven't you always wanted to see into the ultraviolet? No problem with the Magnetic Resonance Optical Overlay Device.
And, besides, I'm just waiting for this one:
It may be here sooner than we may think, since we know now that the parietal lobes are implicated in these experiences.
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
Dr. Jessica Bayliss of the Rochester Institute of Technology does plenty of research on brain-computer interfaces, it's one of her interests. More information here:
Vic
Check out this excerpt for the warning given on the OpenEEG website:
Neurofeedback training in itself can also cause unpleasant side-effects for a small number of people, or in certain unusual circumstances. In an attempt to provide information to allow you to better judge the risks to yourself, we are listing here the ones we are aware of.
As we are not experts, and you should research the subject yourself if you want to be sure.
- Increased anxiety leading to tics, insomnia or even panic attacks.
- Stimulation of latent seizure activity to full (epileptic) seizure activity.
- Mood changes, such as depression or anger outbursts.
Sounds like you'd ever have to be very confident and brave, or very stupid, to try this on yourself.
aus.music.scrapbook
Enter: Keys
bGoogle found 10,453,456,921
Enter: Keys Car
bGoogle found 10,038,594
Enter: Keys Car House today
bGoogle found 7,546
Enter: Keys Car House Today -sex
bGoogle Found 1
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Just take off the tinfoil hat. :)
zosxavius photography
You're dead wrong. The porn industry has not made use of any current 3d animation to any effect worth mentioning (other than Anime which is largely hand drawn or computer generated -- yet not really 3d animated), and they will clearly *not* make any use of this tech until it's at least production stable. Who do you think is going to carry this tech meanwhile? Gamers.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Now, getting data into the brain, that would be easier. We have two main, "high bandwidth" conduits for input; the eyes and the ears. First off - look up "brainwave stimulation", "light and sound", etc - here's a few links:
Hack Canada's Brain-Wave Machine
Futuremind Light & Sound
Neural Signals, Inc
There are other projects out there as well - just google, and you will find them.
Also - look into "Neurophone" and "Voice to Skull" technologies - these use two systems: ultrasound and microwave. Of the two, microwave seems to offer direct neuron stimulation. Basically, on both systems, a carrier wave is set up and voice is FM modulated on top of the carrier wave. The signal is beamed to the subjects head. In the ultrasound version, the skull filters out the carrier wave, leaving the original signal, and bone conduction allows the subject to "hear" the original sound. In the microwave system, the brain itself does the filtering, and the brain then reconstructs the sound. Both systems suffer from major drawbacks in sound quality. Both versions are patented. NASA at one time was interested in the research. Basically, to the subject, it sounds like voices are speaking in their heads - and in the case of microwaves being used as the transmission medium (the research originally started when radar and microwave technicians reported hearing "clicking" type noise whenever they worked on live equipment), it makes you wonder about wearing tinfoil hats (hmmm). I know that the ultrasound version has recently been used as a testbed for "beaming" custom music or advertisements to people on an individual basis - I know /. stories have reported on this in the past (heck, you will find my comments in them on voice to skull).
Anyhow - once you have a couple of ways to get data into the eyes and ears (and/or vestibular system) - and note, a good quality HMD could be used as a light/sound device - you then can play. I can see using the sound part to play music, and underneath the music have the sound binaural beat doing the brain-wave thing (basically, what you do is inject two different audio signals into the ears - say the left at 30 Hz, and the right at 36 Hz - which will yield a "beat tone" of around 6 Hz, which will make you drowsy, etc). Get the sound going, and sync up the eyes in a similar matter, to the sound. Maybe monitor (via IR leds and a camera) the eyes, see what they do, and if you can tell when you are in the meditative state - then alter the sound and/or visuals to force something different (say, ramp slowly from 10 Hz to 6 Hz - then hold at 6, then ramp quickly up to 7-8 Hz, injecting crazy patterns into the eyes - if using an HMD, maybe something like a visualization hack).
Another thing or possibility would be the idea of computer controlled or directed lucid dreaming, via a brain-wave system - imagine donning the goggles and headphones, lying back, listening to a relaxing audio CD as the computer drops you down to a lucid dreaming state, then starts putting suggestions into your ears and eyes, suggesting and guiding a lucid dream (perhaps the computer could also monitor breathing rate, skin conductivity, etc - to help control the "dream")...
Fascinating thoughts and ideas...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I suppose the idea behind this, in theory, is that software like this could be used to control applications if a distinct enough waveform could be divined from the data extracted from your neural activity patterns. This implies that stronger impulses are easier to recognize. Therefore, I offer this idea to those studying brainwaves, in the form of a particularly strong and easily triggered neural action that could perhaps be recognized fairly easily, as well as a resultant onscreen action to which the impulse correlates directly:
Make porn pop up when I touch my cock ok nerds get to work
(And one for pretentious emofags, make livejournal.com open up in Firefox when you cut yourself)
THAT'S all we need...
Technology that makes "First Posts" more efficiently.
I wonder if this could also use a person's mental moods to affect moderation on Slashdot... flamebait and trolls would be identified almost immediately, due to immediate surges in irritation that tends to lead to flame posts.
Also, insightful, interesting and informative posts would instigate deeper thoughts, thus at least bringing them a higher rating.
The Penguin Producer
The reason for using frequency modulation is not just for bypassing the highpass filter on sound cards.
You wouldn't connect anything attached to mains power to your head with low impedance electrodes, would you? Do you trust the USB port of your motherboard with your life?
You need isolation. This is usually achieved with an optocoupler. An optocoupler is not so good at passing analog signals but passing a simple on/off FM signal through it is trivial. Isolating a serial digital signal is equally easy but then you need to find some way to power the ADC and microprocessor on the other side of the coupler with an isolated power supply. The voltage-to-frequency converter takes very little power so it can be easily powered by a battery. The microprocessor and digital interfaces of the ADC can also add noise to the sensitive EEG inputs.
And why are you so afraid of analog circuitry? I find if hilarious that you consider an 8-pin voltage to frequency converter with a few resistors and capacitors more complicated than an analog to digital converter, high order anti-aliasing filters, microprocessors, crystals, serial interfaces and burning ROMs. There is no demodulation circuit since it's done in software. I consider trading a few MIPS from CPU for a simpler circuit a good trade.
There are also other potential advantages for this scheme. For example, if you want to record nighttime EEG activity you can transmit the FM signal from your bed to the PC through an off-the-shelf short range stereo audio transmitter. The two channels are indeed a limitation but this is only a simple circuit that beginners can build with a mimimal chance of frying their brains in the process.
BTW, I wrote the Python frequency demodulation code for this project.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
and it was rejected...today it is news though...
Like monitors, for instance? Please tell me this was a joke...
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114558/
They are totally useless for exploring the brain's functions
Perhaps you won't be doing cutting edge neurology research with this kind of EEG interface to your computer but it's far from useless. Basic analysis of the spectrum of the signal is not so hard. The dominant frequencies correlate to states of consciousness such as relaxation or concentration.
It's fun. It's fascinating to watch your own brain in action. It can even be potentially useful as a biofeedback tool.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
EEG signals aren't exactly a direct neural interface. It's more like listening outside a room with thousands of people talking. You can't tell what they are talking about but the tone of the drone can tell you something about the general mood in the room.
You don't need to be a genius, just a person with a healthy sense of curiosity.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
This should make the spammers and spyware authors really salivate.
No Inflation Taxation without Representation
I'd probably strap a notebook and some speakers to my person and never even bother speaking again! Seriously, I find moving air over my vocal chords to be most strenuous, and welcome our new cyborganic overlords
Most of the research I've seen consists of making big budget films like "The Lawnmower Man", with stunningly good effects for the time, but as much connection to reality as Michael Jackson.
Oh and /. posts saying "roflol dont tel M$!!11 rofl"
Do you see what I did there?
Remember man, this is slashdot, you should explain that joke and possibly even what wine and beer are.
Perhaps now I could have the window focus actually be on the window I intend to type in. Focus follows mind.
Meh
Hrm, neural HID poses a problem. The mind already has a fairly decent firewall setup, adding wiretaps would be poking holes into that.
Meh
same thing
Just watch TV...
...playing with neurotransmitters may be another. What do /.'ers foresee coming in this field?
The obvious:
- pr0n
- brain overclocking
John Kerry is a Joke!
I'm not very interested in improvment in this domain, as the first one who will benefits from this kind of research will be advertisers.
The TF1 (main private TV channel in France) president recently said he's "selling available brain time". The TV programs are specially designed for good reception to advertisments.
Wow. The pilot episode of Star Trek dealt with this subject. As The Keeper points out, "Your race would soon discover our powers of illusion and destroy itself too."
Many people would do nothing but re-live the experiences that were stored in the thought database. Scary technology.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because the people who mind don't matter, and the people who matter don't mind.
. . . John Ashcroft and DHS, whom I'm sure are already doing all the research we need into "direct neural interfacing".
"What research have you seen being done?"
Well, I haven't so much *seen* it as I sometimes *feel* and *hear* it when I remove my tin-foil hat.
"very unlikely you can actually get anything useful from EEG signals"
not even alpha waves?
no bio-feedback?
It's fucking annoying.
Hi. I'm Rick Woo from Singapore. Thanks to neural interface technology I can work from home now. From my bed. You see I move this small garbage cleaning car all over Singapore.
;-)
It's more fun than doing it with a broom and I'm totally immersed the whole day. I even dream of it. I do the work that 60 people would have done. Some of them are in reeducation camps now. But I digress.
Have a clean day
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
...that's what comas and persistive vegetative states are...
I'm giving you the computer finger right now. :)
Because MS has already patented the technology.
- Voice of Ambience -
No, no, it is. You just have to hit the drums really hard with it.
1) This could be a great breakthrough for spammers. Instead of just showing you the product, now they can make you want the product.
2) Does this mean Bond is just another form of Spyware?
3) Whoa. If you need to think to use a computer, tech support would die out completely.
Thank you, I'll be here all week ;)
I have been under the impression that one could use a neurofeedback machine which implies that you'd be able to control what an EEG detects. In this case, you could certainly use this as a human-machine interface.
A gun would provide an immediate and powerful injection of signal into your brain. It would also stop you asking questions on /. that have a snowball's chance in hell of getting an answer that's not wildly speculative science fiction.
Daniel
Carpe Diem
I said there was nothing.
"True dat with a wiffle ball bat." -- kabrakan
I knew Homeworld 2 was setting a bad example!
What now?
What are you. some kinf of frikin cyborg. This scares me.
Its one thing when people use aimbot hacks to play half human half AI in a LAN game. Its quite another when they start thinking about actually making them selves like this. If god intended for humans to be virtual file systems, we would not be born, rather produced from a Vat. Remember the Matrix- the scene where there are millions of lines of human batteries..
Fine go ahead..integrate yourself permenantly into a matrix. But I will be pissed if I am one of only a handful of people who never use that s*** and spend my time rehabbing people like you...
neural net refers to the mathematical model.
neuronal net refers to neurons - pyramidal cells, glia, etc.
As for the BCI (brain computer interface), things are advancing. I know at least of experimental BCIs that make a paralytic control a mouse on the screen by modulating his/her major brain rhythms (like alpha and beta). Of course it requires training but it works. As the analysis techniques of the ongoing EEG waveforms become more sophisticated (ICA, etc.), one can obtain more precise outputs from BCIs to control the PC or anything else. I don't know though about the reverse process, to feed data into the brain. I remember a project called 'the bionic man' (google should know the link) which successfully connected a video camera to the optical nerve, with quite a bit of resolution, beside other inputs.
Hey this is really great... --ankit kumar
...is to be able to control 4 mechanical arms with my brain and an arch nemesis dresssed in blue and red tights.
This message was brought to you by the death of 30 brain cells.
Life is literally like this. Great.
Am I the only person here who finds this nuts?
I can see it now**News**
Man found dead after brain assist software went into killall processes mode.
Killer says faulty software drove him to kill his wife....
If who intended what now?
Look, humans already are virtual file systems. The technology being discussed here is really just a way of bridging two otherwise incompatible protocols.
Accidentally sleep in? Get caught embezzling? Grope the wrong person at work? The script kiddies made me do it!
And they'll probably believe you, with the rest of the mayhem going on in the office... Just think of the new form of "pop-ups" that will appear. :-P
by Vannevar Bush in his prophetic paper As We May Think :
In the outside world, all forms of intelligence whether of sound or sight, have been reduced to the form of varying currents in an electric circuit in order that they may be transmitted. Inside the human frame exactly the same sort of process occurs. Must we always transform to mechanical movements in order to proceed from one electrical phenomenon to another?
Read the whole paper. It's really amazing.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
I forget which series of star trek it was, but I think it was one of the newer ones. Something bad happens, and one of the dudes hooks himself into the computer to fix it. His mind is neurally connected to it. At one point he said he didn't want to renter his pysical body because his conciousness expanded that of which his 'feeble human mind could hold or comprehend'. What prevents this from happening here? (warning: DNRTA) None the less it's something to look out for?
we need some way of using computer-brain interface to encourage our brain to make new nural connectiond depending on computer input
There are 3 possible things we could do
1. Have a neural uplink with the internet so that we could access any information any time we like. We could be prepared for any situation, like from the matrix.
2. Skip school, if we could upload data into our brains we could download school into our minds.
3. Turn the TV on with our minds
Does this mean I'm Dwayne Dibbley?
I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
Have a look at this. We made an bluetooth connected EEG with a budget of $127. And it worked, too!
The "Proprietary Brains" vs "OSS Brain" argument: "Well, if you have a OSS Brain, your brain is more secure. And everyone can see when you're lying." "No, Brains must have secrets..blah, blah" (Couldn't resist.)
It would be cool to eventually have a modular brain. This monolithic model is problematic in that there are several things compiled into it that I would rather not have compiled in. For instance, that image of Lumbergh fucking Peter's g/f in Office Space.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
I really don't think it is such a good idea to 'interface' myself directly to a computer, what with all 450W power supplies, leaky components, and the oh-so-deadly micro shocks I could be having.
Sorry, but medicine is one of the last places I'd use opensource hardware.
But if you convert the data to digitial information right on the electrode, you can use the off-the-shelf wireless networking transciver to move the data and not suffer from the shortcomings of analog wireless transmission, as well as the noise problems associated with conventional EEG cabling schemes?
We are the borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships....
Good point.
The pipe between brain to computer is fairly low bandwidth.
I've wondered for a long while what could, potentially, be a better interface than a keyboard and mouse.
(Speech-to-text is clearly suboptimal, since it is limited by one's speaking speed, and not one's thinking speed.)
MKULTRA, a good enough place to start, not finish, but start there. The net has a lot of info on what you are looking for, which basically is classed under "brainwashing". It is more advanced than what you (might) think and it is not "tinfoil hat".
Wasn't this how the Borg got started?
I work in a lab at University of maryland currently doing research into how the brain integrates audio information. For data collection we use microwire arrays hooked into a $25,000 neural Amp. The results are hard to deal with mainly because it requires about 400 insertions to draw an adequate map of the diffrent audio fields. Anyway, we are very far away from doing this in real life, let alone an opensource project. dont get me wrong, but in order to get good results you have to use the purest metal you can find, hook it into a amp that has been designed using extremely high quality parts that have an absolute minimum of signal degridation. Also, there is the problem of backround noise. we do our exparaments in a room lined with the magnetic equivalent of a faraday cage. some other promising research was posted by "new scientist" magazine. in their febuary 23 2002 edition they had an article about mind over metal and sucessful exparaments that transplanted the brainstem from rats into robots. the brain stems then allowed them to walk and do stuff. The site www.newscientist.com has an archive but you must be a member to view it. In the article they also go into remote controling a brain and the ethics of that. Though, ecause of ethics it is highly unlikely to have human trials anytime soon. However, Mr. roadkill stated on his list a dremel with a bone cutter bit. the irony of this is that we actually use such a thing when inserting implants.
...untilthen......
In one of the earliest experiments in the 60s
(at the University of Utah, I think)
a plastic disk with 128 electrodes sticking
out of either face was inserted between a blind
guy's optical lobes and wired, through a socket
behind his ear into a PDP 8 computer which, in
turn was attached to a TV camera. The, formerly
sighted guy, could distinguish stick figures
drawn on a blackboard. I've looked in vain
for a reference to this experiment.
Show me. I guess the potential to cause brain damage is higher but I want to learn things a la matrix style transmission to the brain. That would be awesome but I'd probably end up an even paler stringy geek with no life. We'd all just sit in front of our computers trying to make it download what we've learned and trying to download into ourselves random things that catch our interest.
Check out the work on transcranial magnetic stimulation for some interesting research on the input end. It's pretty crude--probably works by disrupting function in a localized brain region--but it is noninvasive. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want anything implanted in my brain if I don't absolutely need it.
From an article I read in New Scientist, aparently they can turn off certain regions on of the brain termporarily. This can replicate savant type abilitiies.
The replicated the drawing savant abilities in one gentlemen and he went from OK drawing to near photo-realism in a series of drawings. It was amazing.
Near Death experiences have been replicated as well. I imagine that soon they will be able to replicate. many of these savant type skills
Genius seems to reside in us all, I think we are often afraid to commit to revealing it. These new tools might make it easier. Once you have tasted that mental space, it can become consuming.
Tennis Elbow Injury symptomsLaugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
Here I go with my biggest physical need....
Just reprogram my bod to NOT NEED caffine every am, and to keep those sinus headaches away.
I am always, ALWAYS, roller-coasting on the amount of caffine and Sudafed I have to take to keep these nagging headaches away, and I am always trying to kick the caffine/Sudafed habit.
It is a never ending battle.
This has nothing to do with neural nets, which are a method of AI programming. I believe this article has been mislabeled.
Try http://www.transparentcorp.com/products/np/index.p hp?service=google&keyword=brainwaveThe Neuro-programmer Also I believe there is a military version that allows you to aim your weapon with eye movements and fire it with the right neural activity.
There tends to be a lot of bad info out there and lots of unfortunately missguided ideas regaring the symbiosis of Computer science and Nueroscience. For those interested, there are lots of sources out there in the relm of cybernetics that are worth looking at. I would personally recommend a book called, "Natural Born Cyborgs" by Andy Clark. The author is legit and has lots of cred in the field. One of the most important points in the book (I guess it is the point) is that the human mind is more compatible with cybernetics then we think. Many of the amazing examples used in the book are very compelling. The author would argue that there is no reason why a grown human couldn't form the nessesary neurological circuits to interface with this kind of stuff. So don't think you have to brain surgery on an infant with probes in his head. You can probably get it yourself. Any one interested in the field would gain much from reading it. As for where this could benefit from open source. I think mostly in the basic sense that when you are trying to hack the mind, there would be alot of hurdles and one person may not have the answer but someone else might see it plainly. I think the OS benefits are mostly the same as always. As for the dangers, hah, I'd rather trust neuro-computer equipment from an open community, with nothing to gain but progress, than something as surreptitious and central as microsoft. I love the idea of using neuro interfacing to expand our capabilities and progress is made in leaps and bounds but we may not have another leap or bound in this field for a while. The field is growing so hopefully the extra attenction will accelerate a few things. I'm not as interested in thinking at my computer as I am in using my computer to help me think.
I can't help but be reminded of this gem on bash.org:
: i cant download it something is wrong
serluny: how long did it took u to learn c?
ReDPriest:4.5 minutes
serluny:how did u do that?
ReDPriest:i downloaded it into my brain..i got a program to do that
serluny:what program
ReDPriest:download shit into your brain v3.1
serluny:how do i download it?
ReDPriest: go to www.downloadable-shit-for-your-brain.com
serluny
Yes, I look forward to running rehab software patches on you to fix your protocols, and trying to remove your cyber implants.
No one would expect this sort of tech to be perfected in the first generation, that's what monkeys are for. I, for one, won't be implanting anything in my brain that hasn't thoroughly been tested on monkeys first.
I use two devices to transmit data directly from internet onto my brain. One transmits light waves and one that transmit information trhough airpressure differences. I call them my monitor and my headphones.
Yes, I look forward to running rehab software patches on you[r monkey] to fix your[monkeys] protocols, and trying to remove your[monkeys] cyber implants
... the ones that are on the death row, anyway. Of course, this could lead to some horrible results when the experiment goes haywire and a thug who is bound for the electric chair is transformed into a Super Villain...
I think I'm gonna take it easy on the coffee and get back to work, before I take this any further.
At what point will it become a wireless connection? And who has read/write access? Who is root? You? What if we all had these wireless implants and someone (high up) decided they didn't want us to think badly of them. Especially since we were about to find out that he murder someone (or something like that). How hard would it be for the government to make us believe only what we wanted to believe? To think how they want us to think? And to live how they wanted us to live? (Oh wait! All of that is already a reality!)
Got a problem? Call a monkey!
IMPORTANT !!!
Subject: Important message from the Hong Kong.
Hong Kong police-terrorist's using Brain Voice Read / Write Machine Murder Hong Kong people, Please forward this message to as many people as you can so that we can stop this. xxxxxxx cheung
Dear friend:
Help! Murder, Hong Kong police useing Brain Voice Read / Write Machine Murder Hong Kong people, 100% true story, please e-mail the world people and send 1 e-mail Hong Kong government, 1*10*100*1000....., thank my dear Internet friend.
Hong Kong police terrorist organization:
The devil machine made in England, the Hong Kong police now use, install the police communication network, 24 hours murder Hong Kong people, this murder defeat, exposes the Hong Kong police terrorist organization.
Please, don't harden your heart, send this email to everyone on your list. This is crucial for our survival!! God bless you all!
we can get all the democrats to install windows in their head, the country might get somewhere. :) )
(BSOD
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully "designed" to have come into existence by chance.
A better understanding of what neural net means.
I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
How? Simple. Develop a group of nanoparticles that have particular functions. Insert them in the brain (injection, operation, whatever) in the right order, voila, neural connections!
i.e. inject a very particular bunch of NPs. Their only function is to bind to neurons at a synapse, for example.
A few weeks (or however long it takes for the first NPs to attach themselves) you inject the second course. These connect any two of the preceding NPs together, preferably follwing existing connections.
A few more weeks, next course of particles. These (for argument's sake) attach to any junction of NP1 and NP2 above that has less than three connections. Do the same with another NP that works on four or more junctions. Rinse and repeat until the correct complexity is achieved.
Next course builds the connections from those to the "electronics layer" nanoparticles. Add NPs to build the interface and electronics layer by layer.
We're talking nano bits here, so yes, there is plenty of empty space between the brain components to insert NPs, and also, you'd soon get used to carrying another kilo or so on your shoulders.
It would mean a course of hospital visits over the course of a long time, perhaps a year or perhaps even two. But it would give the person who has had the course, a complete, invisible connection to anything they want. Internet, networks, mobile phone, whatever future connection methods arise - anything...
A businessman with his eye on the big goal would do this so that he could be speaking to his prospect in person, unobtrusively collecting data on the prospect, and possibly transmitting the meeting to his "back-end staff" who could, in real time and quite unbeknownst to the prospect, be coaching and guiding the businessman.
"Pupil narrowing, you're losing him. Steer it back to yachts for a while. And by the way he has a yacht, the SV Grot. HTH."
That's one use.
Imagine an officer in the field, directing a whole squadron of Predators, a bunch of Fireant style ground vehicles, is in communication with all his troops, with his command post, with the Pentagon, and who "sees" in the infrared and u/v, and can also "see" a superimposed map of the area over the top of all that?
What I'm saying, to cut off all those people who say it'll never happen, is that those who do this will be uniquely equipped for survival. Countries that back this research and use it will have an edge. Hell, even criminals who have this operation will be more successful at what they do.
No matter to anyone who says "this is so immoral and sacrilegious" - they are barking up the wrong tree, because in the shadows, somewhere, someone will develop this because the prize is so valuable... Has anyone noticed that the various moratoria on atomic research or genetic research etc achieved precisely nothing?
So think about it you
-- ted russ http://www.arach.net.au/~ted/mydynes/ http://www.arach.net.au/~ted/myblogs/
Try "TAP", by Greg Egan. (You'll see the tie-in at the end.)
All the stories are /.'d but from what I gather this has absolutely nothing to do with AI Neural Networks as I'm assuming the title is referring to and isn't just referring to the brain as a NN, cause they aren't the same things. I wish the headlines would stop sensationalizing things.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
====---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
"Where can I find out how to inject signals into my head?"
I'll give you an example: photons, straight through the eyes. (-8
Here is a link describing the neurophone, much like I first heard about it, years ago.
I know kung fu!
While I guess I true VR. would be great for games and education, I belive computes could do a lot more even without mindcontrol. Just like your spouce knows something is wrong the minute you step in the door. They don't need to read you mind, but pick up on small sounds, like how you put the key in the lock or take off your shoes.
There is nothing to stop a computer from doing the same and using the info to select music or TV channel to watch.
No need for mindcontrol - just better computer programs.
"Vaccine" to prevent getting high from cocaine: Think of the potential for abuse! Keep your fascist, controlling technology away from me, you pleasure Nazis!
Pumping information directly into the brain: Sweet! Lay it on me! What could possibly go wrong?
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
As human technology progresses, there will come a point where it surpasses human biology in complexity and sophistication. So there will be a time where you can connect a computer to your brain (hardware). But the important question is : how do you want it to interface with your mind (software) ?
I wonder if AI will be sufficiently advanced at that time that the problem won't really be ours to solve, just put a layer of AI between the main machine and the mind. Then again, maybe by the time this is possible, we'll have re-engineered ourselves so much that there won't really be any distinction between the parts anymore...
I do think there's food for thought here though...Do we want what we have now, but faster and better ? Or an AI assistant that grows with us from birth, an alternate mind that exists to serve, sort of a mind secretary that provides extra documentation, correlations, and memory to the main mind without it even having to ask (my PDA in 50 years)? Wouldn't that discourage the main mind from learning certain crucial skills though ? I guess the real question is : how far do we want integration to go ? Do we want to think of our computer as "it" ? Or as part of "I" ?
The clueful doofus (say that three times fast) was beating the Karma system, since Funny doesn't help you much.
I like funny posts as long as they are on topic, which the grandparent was. Anyhoo.....
Has anyone here heard of HemiSync? Where you play 2 different frequencies (i.e., 400 hz, and 404 hz) in each ear, and the brain supposedly synchronizes to the difference (4 hz, in this case)? I'd like to see this combined with the OpenEEG project, so you feed multiple people's brain waves into a central server, average the input, and then output HemiSync tones to each person to make their brainwaves entrain to the difference. Sort of like technological telepathy. I'm not sure if this would work or not, but it'd be interesting to try.. -Myke myke@compassionatecoalition.org
-Myke
myke@compassionatecoalition.org
http://www.compassionatecoalition.org
now it really is everCrack!
BrainMaster is a superior solution to the ones mentioned in the article - has support for X Y and Z axis control of applications, plus an API you can use to control video games with once you've figured out hemispheric synchronization and the correct mental state.
Someone's been reading "True Names" (by Vernor Vinge).
Well, there are other sources of the idea... but I wasn't expecting to see the real thing show up for 20 years or so.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
If there's a way to give a brain implant write access I don't want it. I rely on that little voice in my head to tell me right from wrong. To make decisions. What if somebody hit mute on it and replaced it with their own feed?
I also don't neccessarily want to give such a thing universal read access. I don't want google spending some quality time with my frontal lobe.
What I would like is the ability to 'tell' through a neural interface. I want all communication through such an interfact to be output and only things I will to be output. I want all input to be through the senses I was born with. I need to be able to distinguish my thoughts from external information.
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
This is wonderful. Do you all reamember the scene from Robocop 2 with the brain/eyes/spinal cord of the lead baddie being prepped to be inserted into the drug-addicted super-robot?
Imagine that you didn't have to use the brain/eyes/etc. at all. You just uploaded the consciousness. Fountain of youth, unnecessary.
Here
My CPU is a neural net processor... a learning computah.
You'll have to pry my implants out of my cold, dead body.
Humans are machines. We're just making them better machines.
Take this scenario:
A child is born with a birth defect that makes it's eyes useless. If an eye transplant could be done right away then the child could have normal vision. If the same child got an eye transplant at say age 10 then it would still be blind for life. This is because the region of the brain that processes sight would have not developed. After a certain point you loose the ability to learn how to process the information.
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
Just so happens that IAANB (I am a neurobiologist), and am working just such a system. As one of my friends put it, I am creating "The Matrix".
To be blunt, there's a damned good reason that the various approval boards (such as, but not limited to, the FDA) take a long time to allow such experiments to happen. And right now, the field is still in its experimental infancy, many years away from clinical deployment.
Let's just take a look at some related issues on doing something like this at home: is there a (legal) DIY way to inject arbitrary substances into your blood stream? No. Why? Because it's a good way to cause PERMANENT INJURY OR DEATH, if not from the toxicity of what you inject, then from systemic infection due to poor sterile technique. Is ther a DIY way to, say, change the length of your limbs by inserting extra lengths of bone? Nope. Again, serious issues with PERMANENT INJURY OR DEATH. How about replacing a peripheral organ, like a hand or an eye? PERMANENT INJURY OR DEATH.
Now, you want to do the same thing into your brain, where there is a limited immune system?!? You want to put wires into your body? Into your BRAIN?!? At home? With some kind of inexpensive consumer-grade hardware? Might as well try treating cancer with what you can make up from a child's chemistry set.
Direct brain-machine interfaces are unquestionably best left to professionals. Do not do this at home.
Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
The key is, make sure you use an inhibitor chip to keep the arms from controlling you. Important tip! A blue Christmas tree light seems to be too fragile for such applications.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Well, just the thought of being able to interface your neural pathways with a computer and upload is scarry. It would possibly lead the way to easy manipulation of people, wiping people's memories, or you could possibly change people's core. There is a lot of good but a lot of bad as well. It would be much easier to educate people..
Why is it that any discussion of brain-machine interfaces immediately draws rebuke from the ignorant masses, and the creates image of lose wires hanging from peoples heads? TMS - transcranial magnetic stimulation - allows for the direct electric stimulation on specific areas of the brain without the harsh effects of microwaves or massive currents flowing through our brains. This field in general will be one of the fastest growing in the next ten years. Not only in diagnostic use of EM equipment, but therapeutic uses as well.
F.P. had a great story about people who were sucked up into a gigantic pyramid and then their brains hooked together in the ultimate Open Source effort (ie: multiple eyes did indeed look at various problems!).
;-)
SIGGRAPH in Chicago: Several years back there was this guy who had a computer hooked up to a metal band. People could sit in the chair, put the band on their heads, and attempt to move the history of the universe forwards and backwards. Two people (myself being one of them) was able to, just by thinking, move the animation forwards and backwards. The other person was a 5th degree black belt Judo expert.
My problem was not moving the scenes forwards but in getting them to go backwards. It turned out that if you could calm your mind the thing would go forwards rather quickly - but I couldn't get it to go backwards. Then I hit upon the idea that if calming thoughts went one way, then anger might make it go the other way. We finally hit on something to make me mad - the IRS! After that the big bang went in extreme reverse.
So I nominate the IRS to be test subjects. I understand there are lots of them out there and that they multiply quite rapidly anyway. So if we lose a few - it should be ok.
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
The sort of stuff that is likeley to emerge from this sort of technology will not be computers that can tell what number between one and a million you are thinking of. It will be much more general than that. Non-invasive neurofeedback equipment (like the stuff in the Open EEG project) can at best provide an overall picture of the level of activity in general regions of the brain. Using this sort of information in an attempt to 'think to your computer' would be like trying to type with boxing gloves on! Rather than replacing the keyboard, EEG and other biofeedback techniques should be viewed as productivity tools. An analysis of EEG patterns can not tell you what you are thinking, but it can tell you that you are.
Unexpect the expected!
My guess is the guy on Jeopardy is already hooked into the Net.
The standard human brain has five IO systems system that work really well. Two are commonly used for inputing data from a computer. Those are the sight and sound channel. There is also some limited use of the tactil "feel" channel for some games and keyboards. For those humans that have non functional sight channels the audio and tactil channels are often used to fill the IO need.
Why try and and cram an new channel in when the ones that we have seem to work so well. If it isn't broke don't fix it.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Johny pneumonic
http://www.npcgaming.com Dedicated Gaming Servers
All Public School Children
must have the MS Borg Interface Implant to attend school.
Failure of Parents to Install the Implant upon birth of the child is a Crime.
Disagreement with school board policy is a Crime.
Individuality, also, is a Crime.
Stop asking questions citizen, move along...
Wired has an interesting article on that. Featuring a blind man driving a car using implants that allow him to see. Absolutely stunning.
Sorry to say this, but about 99% of this talk hasn't got anymore ties to reality star trek. Sure several experiments have been conducted for visually impaired people to use neural interfaces but the most advanced technologies (also dubed as bionic man in the press and mentioned somewhere above) got only as far as the patients being able to see dots of light around the edges of the opjects it walks toward. And take into consideration that he carried a big bundle of cables directly connected to his brain through a hole on his skull and trained for its use for several years. And yes experiments have been made about using brain waves to control objects but the best control is still very crude and the methodology won't make it possible to improve much (these technologies don't recognize any specific signal our brain uses under ordinary circumstances, they define the signals you have to create - usually by concentrating on certain thought patterns- training makes it better but only to a certain point.) Several studies tried to interpret signals going to our muscles, but there are thousands of nerves at work for even the slightest movement of our body and what we get is a very crude approximation. At the end, to insert data into our brain might possibly prove impossible ( to make you hear voices doesn't mean you learn them, just that you hear them, and think about all the stuff you hear walking on the street..) The point is this, cognitive scientist have been working for decades to learn how our brain learns but still all they have is a bunch of theories, and the most optimistic will tell you that they are still decades away from solving the misteries of learning, we simply cannot understand our brainwaves, and even hearing will be crude through the described technologies. Whats more of a possibility is that each individual brain, although has the same structure on a large scale, organizes its data aquisition and storing technices according to theexperiences it goes through, building different structures and patways, in other words the chemical components are the same, the brains look the same but the neural connections, or pathways, differ from person to person and this effects our learning as an individual. I don't want to disspel any hopes (and likely am not able to do anyway) but we are a very long way from uydestaning our brain fuctions let alone use them and it is still not certain that such a think is possible (in the ways we see and love in the SF movies and novels) ---- and i would be one of the first to buy a package which i could use to inject data into my brain, and inject several hundert books i want to learn but haven't got the time ...
The Hal-4. It's no longer available, allegedly due to loss of the PCB design file.
riight. I'm sure the /. crowd will get off from headlines like these:
"Gr0up sludge, one on one amoeba action"
"Granny protovirus get plugged by the AIDS virus"
"Hot Hot Hot Group cheerleader white on red blood cell action"
"Click here for the best sicle cell (midget) poRn in town!"
No thanks, I'll stick with my regular multi cellular action - aka - real woman.