Apple VP discusses iMac G5 Hardware Design

MrMiyagi writes "Apple VP of of Hardware Product Marketing, Greg Joswiak, discusses the new iMac G5's hardware design. Apparently it's light enough to carry around the house, and has special fans that run at low speeds making the cooling very quiet."

Comments

Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[MikeMacK]

Modern living starts at $1299.

Wow, who knew it was so easy and cheap, now I can get out of my Amish lifestyle for something more modern.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[bloggins02]

Wow, who knew it was so easy and cheap, now I can get out of my Amish lifestyle for something more modern. (Posted on Slashdot)

Not very good at the ol' Amish lifestyle, eh?

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[MikeMacK]

Shhhh...don't tell the Elders.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[LighthouseJ]

Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old. That way they let everyone make their own conscious choice to leave the Amish lifestyle or embrace it. If they ever want to come back, they can but they have to commit themselves 100% to the Amish lifestyle.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Lord Kano]

Not very good at the ol' Amish lifestyle, eh?

Maybe He's a h4rdc0r3 g33k! For all you know he's whistling modem tones into a tin can that's connected by two miles of string to the payphone in town.

LK

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Amish women hot? If they are then I'll live the Amish lifestyle... With my advanced knowledge of things like fire, women will flock to me and desire me! My thousands of children will be my own person army!!

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[mrseigen]

That's very admirable, I think. It would be nice if certain other religions allowed that sort of thing for their followers.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[damiam]

It sounds noble to give them a choice, but I wonder how many actually choose to leave? It's a similar deal to the Jehovah's Witnesses - sure you can leave, but if you do you lose all your friends and family for the rest of your life.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[good soldier svejk]

They allow all Amish people to experience technology every day, they just control what technology. Different groups allow different things, but technologies such as the wheel and woven textiles are pretty ubiquitous. Buttons (clothing fasteners) are not allowed in some communities, but others allow cell phones (at least in barns).

Anyway, the phenomenon you re referring to is called rumspringa.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are hot.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[jht]

My understanding is that if they leave during or after rumspringa, that's fine - they're still family and all. But if they recommit to the church and then drop out, they are shunned as a result.

Basically, I think it's a case of until they choose to commit to the Amish life as adults, departure is OK. Obviously not hoped for, but OK. But once you're in, you're expected to remain.

That said, most are said to stay in their faith.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm sure you know this because of your vast intellect, not because there is a reality program currently running on TV about it, no siree!

;)

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Anonymous Coward]

Those people are hardly typical of the average Amish. It's like measuring average cock size by using data samples from porn stars only.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[xxdarkxxmatterxx]

you should get out more

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[tbone1]

Well, these guys got away with it.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[upsidedown_duck]

Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old.

Amish communities are intertwined with non-Amish communities, they work together, and they share community resources, like nice paved roads courtesy of the DOT. Many Amish people shop at modern grocery stores, work at modern restaurants, etc. In general, they completely co-exist with their more modern neighbors. Just drive through some of the small towns in Ohio north and east of Columbus, and you'll see this everywhere.

The Amish do keep to their traditions as much as they can, such as in their church services, using oxen to pull farming equipment, horses and buggies, etc., but they are faced with the challenges of whether to adopt more technology every single day of their lives.

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligitory "I don't own a TV" post!!

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[cmacw]

so if they had an oxen powered iMac (treadmill made out of animal hide and wooden pulleys of course) would they concede to its use?

Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.

[upsidedown_duck]

I suppose they might if the electrical generator and the iMac was placed outside the house next to the phone booth.

Joswiak?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not fooling anyone, Steve.

Re:Joswiak?

[crackshoe]

Jobs + Wozniak = Joswiak. This is obviously the product of genetic manipulation dating back to the early 1980's, to breed a technical genius with a reality distortion field and impeccable style.

Re:Joswiak?

[crackshoe]

i'm personally baffled as to how this comment could be considered to be informative at all.

Re:Joswiak?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny, but it's even funnier that it's informative.

Re:Joswiak?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me be the first to welcome you to Slashdot.
Around here the word "informative" means pointless, stupid or flat out wrong.
If you have any further questions about Slashdot English, please feel free to ask.

Re:Joswiak?

[keeboo]

Actually this Greg Joswiak is a real person.

Re:Joswiak?

[kalidasa]

I think it's a joke mod. Anyway, it's a running joke - even Joswiak himself has made the joke that they hired him to get the best of both names.

Re:Joswiak?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Stupid Moderator,

The entire thread is about Joswiak's name and how it is similar to Jobs' and Woz's names. The parent post is not OFF TOPIC you stupid idiot. The STORY even mentions Joswiak's name!!!

Re:Joswiak?

[Anonymous Coward]

The mod is even dumber than you think. I think this was a retaliatory mod, because the AC was "insulting" Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Funny thing is, since the posting was AC, the retaliation doesn't do any damage, and since the post is in reply to one that's defaulting at +3, people will read it anyway.

Istalk

[Krunaldo]

hmmm... It's light but it still has the look of a stalker? Does this mean I can finnaly build my Istalk robot? Wonder if it has enough cpu power to do something useful... WAIT it has an G5 in it, built in lcd screen... I can finnaly have a fast enough computer to give me the exact position on every satelite in orbit that's of interest to me. This is a supervilians dream computer.

Re:Istalk

[Anonymous Coward]

Nahh. Us supervillains need expandibility. Where can I fit my PCI-Express Death Ray Control Card? Or my FPGA-based neural network card? Fact is, this is a computer only for suspiciously stylish european or euro-wannabe supervillains who have a puzzling lack of buxom female henchmen, but many large blond male ones.

Re:Istalk

[Krunaldo]

Indeed we do... that's why we prefer an deathstar to an volcano(space is quite large you know...). But an Imac is an excellent piece of next-to-your-bedroomtable-computer. And that is what I've been looking for. And It's also nice to have an Istalk to do all the stalking on the girls in school for you. Let me now tell you a story about how Istalk can change your life. An friend of mine, lets call him bob. Was an very ugly attempt by his parents; one of many, the latest one is Longhorn. Well bob was very ugly so the girls diden't like him at all and the guys woulden't talk to him becuse he was so unfriendly. So all he could do was to stalk people, this took alot of time and he had no time over for his linux hacking. But then he read about Istalk (the g4 model) and he bought one right away. He powerd it up and suddenly the world was blue and everything looked beutiful and he suddenly understood how to make so he could hack the linux kernel all day long. He made use of the Istalks STALK function and suddenly he could have all the fun of stalking without needing to do the boring stuff. I might also add that the Istalk never once failed to complete the STALK function without being killed. Switch to Istalk!

Re:Istalk

[M51DPS]

Do you have any idea how many people already do this? Macintosh is the platform for super-villains.

Re:Istalk

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, I'd never get through a good interrogation without my Brain-to-PCI adapter card. But what computers do you give you your buxom female henchmen? Or in my case, your army of cloned asian female assassins? The new iMac makes an excellent alternative. And unlike the powerbooks, there's just enough room to sqeeze in a built-in miniaturized silenced gun.

But don't you just hate those euro blond henchman freaks? For some strange reason my assassins' charms never seem to work on them...

Re:Istalk

[type40]

Do not mock the large blond male henchmen. They get very upset when compared to the buxom females, and when 300 lb of man muscle gets upset very expensive "lasers" get smashed.
Lets not forget that with female henchmen you will be open to attack for about one week a month as they all sit around, eat chocolate, and bitch about "water weight".
Male Henchmen will do ANYTHING as long as you use the magic phrase "Chicks dig guys that (fill in request)."

And why on god's ass crack are you useing a PCI-Express Death Ray Control Card? The drivers are propriety as hell. At least the firewire model has GPL drivers.

Re:Istalk

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer my death ray controllers to be USB... doesn't really need the bandwidth of PCI-Express, plus it allows me to take it on the road

Smart Design

[samtihen]

I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that? I mean, my computer has a ton of fans to move air around, but that could definitely be lessened by air slits in the top. Thanks Apple!

Re:Smart Design

[Lussarn]

What's news to a mac user is ancient history for the rest of the world. There has been air holes on top of variuos computers since the sixties. The concept probably outlives you.

Re:Smart Design

[pebs]

I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

I assure you it has been thought of and implemented in a variety of ways. This is in the form of both custom case mods and I believe that there are actually a few cases out there that have air holes with fans pointing straight up.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

If my beige box had holes in the top I would have spilled drink in there long ago. But the iMac can get away with it because it sits on the desk like a monitor. So I think both are well designed for what they are.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out

I'd think that interesting too, maybe, but it's wrong. There are no air holes in the top of it.

There is an exhaust slit at the back.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf? who modded this up and didn't fact check?

It's amazing how you can make up any old shit and sound interesting on slashdot, and get karma.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

They're actually speed holes, they make the computer go faster.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

.... it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

My cat would love it... but I'd rather not have things precipitate into my computer. Thanks anyway.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'd think that interesting too, maybe, but it's wrong. There are
> no air holes in the top of it.

Wrong.

Re:Smart Design

[synergy3000]

On most desktop towers the bottom is blocked so you can't have a bottom through top air flow. As well the PSU is usually at the top of the unit since hot air rises and you want the PSU to put the least amount of heat close to things like the CPU. Couple that with PCI cards which can run the entire horizontal length and you begin to see why air flow via fans goes front to back. Since the iMac has an LCD on what would be the front of the computer there is no way to have airflow there. Now convection cooled systems like most CRT monitors have their vents at the tops. Just like CRT TVs. Nothing new, nothing fancy.

Re:Smart Design

[FuzzzyLogik]

i think the poster was pointing out that we don't typically see this in many mainstream computer manufacturer's designs.. when in fact we should see it. Why should PC's be so loud when apple can design a 2 inch thick computer that's virtually silent? given the amount of room in a typical pc case why should the 2 inch thick imac be so much quieter when compared to a larger pc? I think that's the point he was trying to make, not that it hasn't really been done before, but it should still be done regardless of how old the idea is. it's a clever design, why not use it? you sir need to chill and just oh.. i don't know, contribute but not be such an ass in the process? sounds good.. then again you are an AC so i guess your reasoning is pretty well explained.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Air vent on top is useful fro convection cooling. Hot air rises to the top because it is lighter.

As soon as you added in fans (i.e. forced air cooling), the air flow dictates the air movement and it is only a minor effects.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Wronger. Put the lid on that case et voilla - no airholes

Re:Smart Design

[Amiga Lover]

>> I'd think that interesting too, maybe, but it's wrong. There are
>> no air holes in the top of it.

> Wrong.

You must be the hundredth person I've come across online who looks at that picture and presumes the bottom of the imac is the top, because of the cooling holes. I don't get it. What's so hard to understand about a picture? OK I shouldn't get annoyed just because of what other people think but really, I wonder how much anyone is really THINKING about what they see. Are you all just taking a half second glance at an image and then seeing what you want to without making conscious thought? sheeeeesh!

Re:Smart Design

[Uncle_Destroy]

I've got plenty of karma, just the wrong kind.

Re:Smart Design

[aldoman]

Maybe because your average PC has many more real heat creating components? Such as a full size, full speed optical drive(s), multiple HDDs (some running at 10k RPM), a graphics card that can eat 60-100W up and to add to all that a Power supply that can deal with components being added?

I'm sure you could do the exact same with a PC, but most people prefer upgradability over all in one form factor and 'loudness'. I mean, Dell's SFF workstations are purely passively cooled apart from a very large, slow running fan that comes on when you do something that requires a lot of CPU/GPU power. I'm sure the iMac will get very noisy when all of it's fans have to run at full speed, too.

Re:Smart Design

[AmericanInKiev]

Relying on vents on the top surface is a gamble that the owner won't put another computer, an afghan, a cat, or a printer on top of the computer - a much better gamble when the computer is also the monitor.

What's more interesting is the slow speed fans.

AIK

Re:Smart Design

[fitten]

Hot air rises to the top because it is lighter.


Actually, it doesn't rise at all (haven't you seen *any* of the Professor Julius Sumner Miller videos?) "There ain't no Hindu levitation goin on here!" :)

Warm air is pushed up by cooler air below it because the warmer air is less dense than the cooler air.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

i think the poster was pointing out that we don't typically see this in many mainstream computer manufacturer's designs.. when in fact we should see it. Why should PC's be so loud when apple can design a 2 inch thick computer that's virtually silent? given the amount of room in a typical pc case why should the 2 inch thick imac be so much quieter when compared to a larger pc? I think that's the point he was trying to make, not that it hasn't really been done before, but it should still be done regardless of how old the idea is. it's a clever design, why not use it? you sir need to chill and just oh.. i don't know, contribute but not be such an ass in the process? sounds good.. then again you are an AC so i guess your reasoning is pretty well explained.

The poster may have been pointing out cooling holes on top ofa computer as a good idea, but it has nothing to do with the iMac. the 2 inch thick imac might be so much quieter, but raising the point of 'cooling holes' that it does not have makes no sense because they are something hes imagined up. The iMac is well engineered in its cooling because of cooling zones that pump air in the bottom and OUT THE BACK.

It is not convection cooled, it does not have cooling holes in the top, and saying "cooling holes are a good idea because the iMac is quiet" is I dunno like saying "cooling holes are a good idea because my cat has white patches" because those two concepts are as equally related.

Re:Smart Design

[bob beta]

The old Macs had this design going way back. My Mac Plus had ventillation in the hand hole on the top, and no fan.

Of course, third party vendors developed a cooling fan that would slide into the hand hole, which made the Mac Plus far less likely to crash. That fan cost hundreds of dollars (it was a plain muffin fan in a molded thermoplastic housing), which Mac users just shrugged off and paid.

Re:Smart Design

[FuzzzyLogik]

Then I point you to the PowerMac G5. If Apple can cool it and make it virtually silent then why can't these big named pc manufacturers? Not only do they do it in silence but they do it with a beautiful case too. Granted sure on a PC some things may need to be changed to allow for a bit more expansion but seriously, it can be done, PC manufacturers are just too lazy and want to make things cheap and crappy, it's really that simple.

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, the parent got sufficiently whacked over the head for his silly post.

But I've been wondering, with laptops, could you split the mobo in two, and then put CPU, RAM and GPU together with the Northbridge up there behind the LCD? You could then put a big-ass (think 17" diagonal) passive heatsink on them and use convection cooling (because that half stands upright when you are using the machine). Some clear plastic or something to cover the fins to protect airplane seats...

Would give perhaps as effective cooling as the fans used now, would be silent, and not burn your lap even after long intensive sessions.

Naturally, you'd have Southbridge, drives, battery, keyboard on the lower half of the case. The Southbridge to Northbridge connection (V-Link, HT, MuTIOL, what have you) running through the hinge is the iffy part, but maybe not too iffy.

Any sense in something like this? Done already somewhere?

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever used a Dell/IBM workstation machine? Custom cooling all the way, variable fans. They're just as quiet as the PM G5.

Re:Smart Design

[LWATCDR]

I would love to see more slow speed fans in computers. Part of the problem is people want cheap computers an rarley care how much noise they make when they are buying them.

Re:Smart Design

[Jeremy Erwin]

That would make the lid top heavy-- and frankly, apple's hinge design has historically been lacking.

Re:Smart Design

[Jeremi]

Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that? I mean, my computer has a ton of fans to
move air around, but that could definitely be lessened by air slits in the top.

The downside of holes in the top of the case is that they also allow things (toast crumbs, coffee, etc... but mostly dust) to fall into the case. I think that's why most cases avoid them. I suppose it is less of a problem when your case is (a) only 2 inches thick, and (b) also serving as a monitor (and therefore located at eye level instead of sitting on the floor)

Re:Smart Design

[Jeremi]

PC manufacturers are just too lazy and want to make things cheap and
crappy, it's really that simple.

Isn't this just giving the customer what he wants? Seems like the majority of PC buyers make buying decisions based mainly on price.

Re:Smart Design

[netglen]

I guess the Apple Legal department loves all teh design changes too. They have months worth of new work suing all the copy-cat designers. :D

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has traditionally hated fans. The problem is that the computers often needed fans anyway. The first few macs (128k, 512k, and Plus) had vents in the top under the handle and vents on the right and left side along the bottom of the case, but no fan. Kensington started up selling a fan that sat on top of the handle to pull an adequate amount of air through the case. Later macs built in that design included fans. I know the Classic did and I think the SE and SE/30 did.

Apple keeps trying to revive convection cooling, but it doesn't seem to last long. The G4 cube used the idea.

Re:Smart Design

[badasscat]

I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

Umm, lots of people have. Probably 50% of all PC towers on the market have top-mounted fans and/or air holes.

What I don't get about the new iMac is this: Ok, so it's basically a screen and keyboard. And you can carry it around the house. And it's not expandable (like other iMacs). Now, how is this different and/or better than a laptop? So the computer itself is in the screen rather than the keyboard - that's not really a major difference in form factor. What advantages does the iMac have over a PowerBook, or an iBook? Is Apple going to delay the G5 iBook now because it'd cannibalize iMac sales?

I would think a laptop would have obvious advantages over the new iMac, while not giving up much of anything. A laptop is truly portable, a true all-in-one unit. The iMac isn't.

Who would buy an iMac over a comparable laptop, and why?

Re:Smart Design

[penguinoid]

Which is in fact true because a good CPU will run slower when it overheats.

Re:Smart Design

[penguinoid]

lighter == less dense,
when referring to material as opposed to a discreet object.

Re:Smart Design

[.com b4 .storm]

Who would buy an iMac over a comparable laptop, and why?

Probably someone who...

1. Wants a G5 and/or doesn't want to spend $300+tax more for a laptop with an older, slower processor (1.3GHz G4 Powerbook), or
2. Doesn't want noisy laptop fans, or
3. Wants more hard drive space built-in, or
4. Wants a better GPU, or
5. Doesn't *need* a laptop, or
6. Any/all of the above

Then there's the screen size. As it stands now, a 17" PBook would cost $2800, and have a 1.5GHz G4 in it. For $1300, you get a 17" iMac with a 1.6GHz G5...

Re:Smart Design

[Richard_at_work]

I have a P4 based PC that is the same formfactor as the 'new' G5. 17" TFT out front with all the worky bits behind it. Guess what? Its silent. And also guess what? It costs the same as this system. And guess what? If you are willing to invest money in it, you can also get the same level of noise reduction in an off the shelf $399 P4 based system. Its very simple a case of you get what you pay for, a $399 price point doesnt lend itself to $199 in cooling technology.

Re:Smart Design

[ThousandStars]

Now, how is this different and/or better than a laptop?

The base G5 iMac, for $1300, gets you more processing power and HD space than the most powerful $3000 Powerbook, as well as a higher-quality screen.

The iMac has more power, less money, and apparently it is somewhat user serviceable (contrary to your post).

Granted, in form factor is the number one priority and all others fall away in the distance, then there is little difference between a laptop and iMac. So when one does buy a laptop, one gives up both money and power. One gets other advantages, of course, and Apple makes various machines for the needs of different people.

Re:Smart Design

[fitten]

I'm not talking about the difference between "lighter" and "less dense" in my other post.

Re:Smart Design

[RestiffBard]

It is actually expandable. The First iMac of its kind. Every part is user replaceable. Apple Support Document

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes (I'm the AC above)... I guess the "bottom parts" would have to be beefier than average. A good excuse to put in a really big battery? Or two HDs for RAID? (I guess the design suggests desktop replacements rather than lightweights anyway.)

Actually I was imagining an x86 laptop done this way, but why not a G5 PB!

Re:Smart Design

[Sunnan]

The current iBook G4 costs less than the iMac G5, is as silent, and has a non-nVidia-card, which matters to many.

Basically your most valid point is 3, hard drive space.

The iBook G4 makes sense in a lot of cases where the original iMac made sense when it first arrived, and then some.

(I don't want to plug Apple's products - there are other good computers out there. I'm just saying that in the battle of iBook vs iMac, the former wins a lot of the time, for a lot of people.)

Re:Smart Design

[jrockway]

My Powerbook has a much better GPU.

Actually, I think that (minus the G5) my 15" Al Book is a better machine than the new iMac. Nearly 4 hours of battery life, very light and portable, firewire 800, radeon 9700, etc.

That's the way it should be; the iMac is much less expensive :)

Re:Smart Design

[ce25254]

Who would buy an iMac over a comparable laptop, and why?

I like the idea of having my keyboard & mouse where I want them, and still having the monitor at a decent height. (Sure, you can use an external keyboard & mouse with your PowerBook, but then you lose space.)

I also like the idea of having a fast hard disk drive.

Re:Smart Design

[benedict]

An average PC has multiple hard drives, some running at 10K RPM? On what planet?

Re:Smart Design

[sammaffei]

Exactly. That's why I'll be eBaying my PowerBook G4.

I'm trading up from a 1GHz PowerBook G4 : 15" in LCD, SuperDrive 1x, 512Mb RAM, 60 Gig HD, USB 1.1, and Aiport 802.11b to a 1.8 GHz G5 iMac, SuperDrive 4x, 512Mb RAM, 160 Gig HD, USB 2.0, Aiport 802.11g.

Only costing me $1000 after auctioning the PowerBook.

Re:Smart Design

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Well, in the case of the iMac, it would be pretty hard to place anything on top of it. Unless you're refering to placing vents on the top of a standard PC style box, to which I think the original poster was also implying that PC makers should also be making more PCs in a similar form-factor as the iMac, aswell as better cooling.

Re:Smart Design

[binux]

Could it be because people are more likely to place stuff on top of the boxes rather than lean things against them?

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Because having pockets of heat (*PU) heating a TFT surface does not do good things for the lifespan of the display.

Re:Smart Design

[Saltation]

>I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

:) It's not a new concept, but yeah, not one very often used.
Essentially, it's a tradeoff between the heat benefits when switched on and the dust problems when switched off.


Historical Note:
Silent convection-driven cooling was one of the design goals of the very first macs: they had no fans at all.

When fans finally became necessary, for a while you could buy a "Mac Hat" which was like a turbine tail/funnel you put on top of a mac with the fan unplugged: this passively created the extra airflow required.

The growth in chip heat has pretty much killed the fanless idea (the mid90s performas drew a MAXIMUM of 5 watts... not the chip, the whole machine), but the Apple Engineers seem to keep it in mind. The Cube, for example, blew air up a central column.

Re:Smart Design

[splateagle]

Is Apple going to delay the G5 iBook because it'd canibalize iMac sales?

no, but they're probably going to delay the G5 iBook because it'd melt if they built one now.

The main advantage this design has over a laptop is that the computer can be cooled by air moving vertically through the components - most importantly that G5 processor which runs very very hot.

Unless the G5 Powerbook (and later iBook) designs reverse the usual laptop layout much as the new iMac has, it's going to be a while before the kind of cooling systems you can fit in a laptop (with a horizontal, not vertical mobo) will cope with the heat generated by a G5

Re:Smart Design

[danielsfca2]

...because a good CPU will run slower when it overheats.

...While an evil CPU will run faster and faster the more it overheats!! Bwahahahahaaa!

Re:Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you could negate that with some thin but efficient (thus expensive) insulation between the display and the PCB with the *PUs? (Note, chips on the backside of the PCB, facing back where the heatsink is.)

How about a sheet of that new fangled space foam that doesn't transfer heat any? Too expensive?

Come on, the G5 iMac isn't so far from this layout, maybe it has an inch more thickness than what is pursued here, but then again it has the drives and other "southbridgery" up there too.

This split arrangement should be doable, if somewhat expensive too...

Re:Smart Design

[fr0dicus]

Minus the G5? I like the way you just threw that in parentheses there ;-)

Re:Smart Design

[thatguywhoiam]

I have a P4 based PC that is the same formfactor as the 'new' G5. 17" TFT out front with all the worky bits behind it. Guess what? Its silent. And also guess what? It costs the same as this system. And guess what? If you are willing to invest money in it, you can also get the same level of noise reduction in an off the shelf $399 P4 based system. Its very simple a case of you get what you pay for, a $399 price point doesnt lend itself to $199 in cooling technology.

And the name/make of this fantastic PC would be...?

Re:Smart Design

[mjc_w]

An advantage of putting the hot stuff behind the display on a laptop is that your lap would not get heated.

Disadvantages are that:

1. The weight would make the hinge have to be quite strong (don't want the display closing on you).

2. If it got too hot, your hand could get burnt (assuming a G5).

Sort of reminds me of the Sony all-in-one systems, with the computer innards behind the display.

Re:Smart Design

[cft_128]

I have a sneaky suspicion the 1.6ghz G5 will beat the socks off of the 1Ghz iBook G4 in performance: faster bus, faster memory, faster CPU clock speed, faster CPU architecture and faster hd.

Oh yeah, don't forget the larger screen, 14" vs. 17".

As for the price difference, the 14" iBook is the same price as the 17" iMac; the 12" iBook is $200 cheaper but you lose out on even more screen. Don't get me wrong, I do like laptops, even have one, but the iMac G5 is quite the bargain -- the only real advantage the iBook has is portability, which is (obviously) not for everyone.

Re:Smart Design

[The Infamous Grimace]

One of the biggest gripes that I've heard regarding laptops, particularly Macs, is the ability to close the lid while using an external keyboard and monitor. The design you suggest would prevent this, unless there was a fan that kicked in when the lid was closed while the computer was in use.

(tig)

Re:Smart Design

[Sunnan]

Sure, sometimes the iMac does win out over the iBook. (Screen size, performance, more ports, and being more user servicable are some of the advantages; and I really do hope its got better speakers and sound.) I was just pointing out that the parent was in error in several of the points s/he made. (Primarily price and noise, and a few (including me, though) would say GPU.)

And "doesn't need a laptop" sounds like nonsense (unless taken in the context of the first paragraph, in which case it's just redundant), and "all of the above" doesn't apply if it's just the hard drive issue that's applicable among the listed points.

100 times on the blackboard!

[Scrameustache]

Repeat after me: I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.

I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing.
I will not post articles from a VP of marketing. ...

Good, now continue. Even if he's from Apple and he's got a brand new toy to talk about, he is still a VP of Marketing. : )

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[oO0OoO0Oo]

To paraphrase one^H^H^Hmany previous posters in other more political threads,

Look at the product, not the producer.

The very cool hardware of the new G5 was deemed interesting by Taco for the intended audience irrespective of the source of the article.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[wattersa]

Notice that literally everything he says in the "interview" is devoted to increasing the differences between the "pro" and "consumer" lines. E.g. FireWire 800 had really been more attractive to a professional crowd. And really, more [appealing] than the speed has been the advantages [professionals] have with cable lengths.

What does this statement mean? It's pretty much throwaway. I hate apple marketing. They need to make the iMac G5 without the display (oh wait...attractive to a professional crowd = power mac). *sigh*

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[gt623]

marketing is very different from advertising

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[BasilBrush]

Need to? They don't need to do any such thing. For all the noise made by geeks on a tight budget, most of the computers that I've ever known of people buying have been bought with a monitor. They might get a few extra sales with a headless version, but would it compensate them for the lower profit on a lower value machine?

ITYM, you want them to make a headless iMac.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[Scrameustache]

What does this statement mean? It's pretty much throwaway. I hate apple marketing.

Don't be a hater. Its not Apple specific, its marketing.
Salesmen and con artists are the same kind of people. : (

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[IntlHarvester]

In otherwords, Apple can't give people what they want (midrange desktop box), because they are too busy gouging someone else (low-end pros).

A headless G5 with a couple slots and a 17" LCD would probably sell for more $$ than the iMac -- it would be plenty profitable for Apple. The problem is that a lot of Photoshop types would be attracted to the machine along with the home/edu users.

I'd like to think that the PowerMac, with dual procs, PCI-X, huge memory bus, etc, could stand on its own in the marketplace. Apple apparently doesn't agree, and they've hollowed out the middle in order to drive users towards the most expensive machines.

You're right they don't "need" to do anything, if they're happy with their current sales/marketshare numbers. But they've got themselves into a strange situation where they don't sell a computer with "normal" specs (see average Dell or HP), and that has to hurt sales to some degree.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[Shant3030]

Why include a component that tailors to a more "professional" crowd? This will only drive up the price for the rest of us who don't need FireWire 800.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[jedrek]

In otherwords, Apple can't give people what they want (midrange desktop box), because they are too busy gouging someone else (low-end pros).

Gouging? Where? Show me another pre-assembled, pre-configured 1.8ghz 64-bit machine with a similar form factor, 17" widescreen LCD, running at 20-30db - all for $1299. The truth is, this machine is all most "Photoshop types" need - it's more than enough (after a memory upgrade) for anything other than large print projects.

I think Apple flat out doesn't want to dilute its brand. They sell expensive, great looking computers with excellent customer service. They're not Dell, they're not HP, they're Apple, plain and simple. Remember when they used to license clones? Remember how big of a flop it was? They're nto going back there, at least not until they have to, and they may never have to.

I've been a Mac hater since '88, but this a really, really nice machine at a great price. I'm actually getting one right now and if OSX is as good as people have been saying, I'm getting one for my mom next year.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[IntlHarvester]

Just to make myself clear -- the iMac pricing is fine in my book -- just due to the formfactor its not the machine for everyone.

The "gouging" is the fact that Apple's cheapest headless machine is $2000. That's a huge premium to pay if you just want something better than a bottom-scraper video card or an insurance slot.

I just don't buy the idea that a good-looking $1K desktop would "dilute the brand" any more than the eMac or iBook has. It would still be more premium (in price and looks) than a Dell. And I think it would sell a lot better than the iMac has.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[BasilBrush]

When I talked about most people buying computers with screens that was across the board. When you talk about "giving people what they want" what you really mean is what you and a minority want. Once again, most people buy computers WITH monitors.

And what are you talking about photoshop users being attracted to a headless G5 with a 17" screen? If they are happy to use a 17" screen, and happy to use a single proc G5, then they'd buy the G5 iMac as is.

Are Apple happy with their current market share? That question presupposes that a headless iMac would profitably increase it. It ain't necessarily so. Most people buy computers with monitors - did I say that already?.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[IntlHarvester]

Most people buy computers with monitors ... and 3-4 AGP/PCI slots.

The new iMac is a fine machine, it's just positioned nearly identically to the old iMac, so I don't see it broadening Apple's customer base very much. Status quo.

And perhaps Apple believes there's not a lot of sales growth potential, which is why there is such a stark distinction between consumer and pro machines (both in formfactor and price).

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[cgenman]

Salesmen and con artists are the same kind of people. : (

There is a difference between con artists and salesmen: con artists have been caught.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[mrchaotica]

How would making a new Cube, or a new pizzabox dilute their brand? They've made headless consumer-grade Macs before! We just want them to do it again.

I don't think they ought to make a cheaper (single proc) G5 tower; I think they ought to make an "entertainment pc," which would be a small form-factor one with just a little bit more expandibility than the iMac, because it wouldn't be all-in-one. Imagine a Mac version of a Shuttle PC, or a 2 inch think hi-fi equipment-looking one (i.e., a consumer-grade Xserve) with one PCIe slot.

Either way, stick an ATi All-In-Wonder in the PCIe slot, make a video/PVR complement to iTunes, and voila! -- instant competitor to Windows Media Center Edition. You could even bundle it with one of those 30" Cinema displays! And heck, as an afterthought, if you just happened to use a 9800 for that video card, you'd have a kick-ass gaming machine too!

Not only would this not cut into "professional" Mac sales (it still wouldn't be that expandable, and wouldn't have fast, dual CPUs), but it would still be true to "Apple brand" because it would be continuing the heritage of the pizzaboxes and the Cube.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[Lars T.]

Just by comparing the headless Mac you describe and the one IntlHarvester describes, we see why Apple would fail if they brought out one. 75% of people wanting a HLM would complain that it isn't the HLM they wanted.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[IntlHarvester]

Sounds like the exact same machine to me. The lowend guy gets a decent entry $1K box with a 3rd party CRT, and the high-end guy gets a PVR with a $$$$ Apple display. All new markets for Apple. Thus the incredible magic of a simple PCIe slot and letting the user pick their video card and display.

(I still have faith that Apple will introduce such a machine as soon as G5 production gets ramped up.)

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[mrchaotica]

It kind of sounded to me like you wanted one of the old single-processor G5 PowerMac towers, actually (which you could get from eBay or the Apple refurb store, by the way). Thanks for backing me up, though!

Also, I should clarify: I meant for this (at least the base model) to have integrated video, but also have a PCIe slot for generic expandibility. Most people would put in a video card, but PCIe will eventually be used for other things too, and I didn't want it to have to be used for video.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[bigpat]

"Remember when they used to license clones? Remember how big of a flop it was?"

Yes, I remember. That was the last time I was an Apple customer. It was a flop for the company, but for customers it was good to have more choices.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[BasilBrush]

and 3-4 AGP/PCI slots.

That they don't use. Most people will stick with the video card/on board graphics that the computer came with. Sound, ethernet, dial-up modem is built in. Everything else is external upgrades. The days of people caring how many slots a computer has got are over. The rise of the laptop shows that they don't much care if they have any slots at all.

The G5 iMac is positioned exactly where the G4 iMac was, and the colourful G3 CRT iMacs before them. It's the latest variation on a theme. iMacs appeal to consumers with an appreciation of Quality. But it is priced cheaper that the G4s, and more in line with the very sucessful G3s.

Apple do indeed recognise that they aren't going to get huge market share growth, no matter what they do, so they are happy to serve their existing customers well, and hope for some modest Mac growth from the awareness of Apple products that the iPod is bringing.

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[IntlHarvester]

The G5 iMac is positioned exactly where the G4 iMac was

Which is a problem because sales of the G4 iMac weren't exactly spectactular (to put it mildly - 60K last quarter).

If you look at the entire history of Apple "AIO" models going back to 1990 or so, there was really only that one year that the G3 iMac was a big hit. The rest of the time, it's been a niche formfactor. Which would be OK if Apple offered a "regular computer" along side it (as they did in years past).

Apple do indeed recognise that they aren't going to get huge market share growth, no matter what they do

Then we agree. However, I think that Apple management is wrong on this point and that there is greater demand for Macs than is being met (even if it is only churn in the existing userbase).

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[Ohreally_factor]

and necrophilia is different from bestiality. What's your point?

Re:100 times on the blackboard!

[prockcore]

Gouging? Where? Show me another pre-assembled, pre-configured 1.8ghz 64-bit machine with a similar form factor, 17" widescreen LCD, running at 20-30db - all for $1299.

Here's one

Well, the screen is smaller, but it's also thinner and lighter than the iMac G5, has twice the ram, faster video, and integrated wifi.

Plus the cpu is faster. All for $1149.

Oh sure, it's a laptop, but I won't hold that against it.

Oft-Overlooked Point

[the pickle]

In everyone's clamouring for a G5 PowerBook, a lot of people have said that this iMac proves a G5 PowerBook could be coming soon.

Joswiak does a great job of explaining exactly why that won't be happening:

There's still a luxury we have in two inches that we don't have in a fraction of an inch, if you think about how much space there really is in the bottom of a PowerBook... Certainly we were trying to learn from the iMac, but not like, "Oh, there's this breakthrough now, expect it next month.

I want a G5 PowerBook as bad as the next guy, but I'm a realist about it. If we see one by MWSF in January I'll be VERY impressed.

Fascinating interview overall. Anything that gives insight into Apple's collective thought process is worthwhile for the rest of the tech industry to keep an eye on.

p

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[immel]

They probably could make a G5 powerbook, but it would be a mega-luggable; a behemoth among the beautiful, svelte laptops we expect from Apple. This is something they have tried to avoid since the mac portable.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[John_Booty]

I agree with you.

Serious question, not rhetorical: is there really that much to be learned about cooling a G5? There's only so much heat removal you can do, given a certain amount of space and a CPU which produces a certain amount of heat. I don't know that there's some miracle the Apple design/engineering wizards can really pull out of their proverbial hats on that one. Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?

I think the thing that leads to a G5 laptop would probably be cooler-running G5 CPUs from IBM, or a newfound desire from Apple to do an unsexy "luggable" laptop. Then again, I suppose the current generation of G5 CPUs would run pretty cool when clocked down to 1 or 1.2ghz, if they really wanted to get one out of the door...

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[FuzzzyLogik]

I think you're about right. We won't see the G5 in a powerbook until IBM can reduce the amount of heat coming from the processor. I don't think we'll see any big advancement in this for awhile yet. We won't see Apple making a fugly powerbook either so that only leaves IBM making a more effecient cooler chip. I'm not sure exactly how much heat it would produce when clocked down either... maybe they will do that? Not sure.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[the pickle]

Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?

There have been two or three schemes floated around in the last few years on the rumour sites that, as far as I can recall, never really went anywhere (or at least not to the extent that the rumour sites claimed). The most promising that comes to mind was some liquid-cooled setup with a tiny radiator, like a cross between heat pipes and a full water-cooling rig (which obviously would suck down far too much power for laptop use). I can't remember any more details than that, or a link, but yeah.

You've hit the nail on the head with the comments about the CPU. The key isn't necessarily better cooling technologies -- the key is getting the processor heat output down to manageable levels, and that's IBM's responsibility. Right now, I'd prefer they concentrate on getting over their 2.5 GHz speed hump, and then maybe they can start working on lower-power downclocked versions of the 2.0 GHz CPU. I think a 1.5 GHz G5 PowerBook would go over *really* well, despite the obvious disadvantage relative to the high-end laptop. The G5-in-a-laptop would a huge psychological boost for sales, even without performing on par with the desktops.

Then again, a dual-1 GHz G4 laptop would be an interesting idea, too...

p

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[Zemrec]

I bought an AlBook 1.25Ghz G4 15" last year. I love it, often using it solely, and only powering up my Athlon box for games.

I chiefly use it on the desk, with my 19" LCD connected for a 2nd screen. But occasionally I use it elsewhere as a portable.

The one thing that I don't like about it is the heat. Even just doing web browsing and e-mail it gets warm. But when I do something that taxes the CPU for a period of time, the top of the keyboard and the area on the underside near the screen hinge gets downright hot! I can't stand to touch it for more than a few seconds.

I know this is an issue with all modern laptops, but is there anything even in theory that can be done about it? Besides slowing down the CPU and GPU, putting in a big noisy fan, for example.

Are there any technologies that can cool something like a laptop better? Some kind of micro liquid cooling system? Maybe we'll have liquid nitrogen (or something else, dry-ice?) capsules you plug in and when they're used up you recycle?

Or are we stuck with this situation? And I assume it'll only get worse as clock speeds get higher? Will there come a point where we just can't make highend laptops anymore because they get too hot?

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[Anonymous Coward]

All "Redundant" mods will be meta-modded "Unfair" until the mods can prove they know what "redundant" means.

OK, but then you might think about checking up on what "unfair" means.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[the pickle]

Keep in mind that heat is a byproduct of power consumption. Unless battery technology can keep up with processor technology, we'll reach the practical limits of power storage before we reach the limits of heat dissipation. I think the power draw of high-end laptops will be the limiting factor, rather than the heat dissipation.

p

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[pkhuong]

Multicore instead of higher clock. PiM. Conservative logic. New processes. Even while sticking to moving electric signals on silicon, there are alternatives.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[CountBrass]

Read your sig. I know what redunant is and your post is a perfect example.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[GigsVT]

I agree, the G5 have huge cooling systems. People talk about AMD running hot, but damn, I mean the new 2.5s have huge radiator blocks and water cooling. If you were to put a reasonably sized heat sink and fan on a G5, it'd probably run hotter than any AMD chip.

I don't think there's any way they could put those beasts in a laptop either. Especially if they don't want it to sound like a pulsejet.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[King_TJ]

Actually, I thought I read someplace that the G5 processors don't generate quite as much heat as some of the latest AMD and Intel offerings.... The main reasons Apple has that huge water-cooled radiator gizmo are because (A) it's very quiet, and (B) for all intentions and purposes, they're really running what's basically a 2.0Ghz CPU with IBM sanctioned and properly engineered "overclocking" applied to it.

That being said though, they certainly *do* generate lots of heat, and don't seem appropriate for use in a laptop at all. (Of course, neither did the non-mobile versions of Intel's P4 CPU, yet some vendors shoehorned them into laptops anyway.) As others have said, surely Apple is just waiting on IBM to redesign the G5 so they have a version with lower power consumption and heat generation, suitable for mobile use. As with practically all CPUs, the desktop version comes first - followed by "mobile" versions much further down the road.

I think it's probably *possible* to build a laptop with an existing G5 CPU in it. You'd have to make the laptop fairly thick and heavy though, which would never fly as a Powerbook upgrade. People buy them largely because they're lightweight and thin. You'd also end up with some kind of cooling contraption like peltier junctions transferring heat over to a large plate with multiple cooling fans blowing on it. It surely wouldn't be a "quiet" laptop.... (But neither are Sager's "gaming/performance laptops" - and some people still buy those.)

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[Fweeky]

This graph (from this Xserve G5 page) suggests the G5's thermal characteristics are similar to the AMD64 HE range; ~55W max. Whether the same chips are used in the iMac, I don't know.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[Anonymous Coward]

There's only so much heat removal you can do, given a certain amount of space and a CPU which produces a certain amount of heat. I don't know that there's some miracle the Apple design/engineering wizards can really pull out of their proverbial hats on that one. Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?

They haven't tried the multipurpose laptop approach - a laptop with a griddle on the left of the trackpad thingy and a barbeque grill on the right. It would dissipate the heat more effectively and help me get my flapjacks done while reading slashdot in the morning.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[BoRegardless]

For a G5 laptop, it is only a question of how much the heat transfer system COSTS. It is not whether it can be done.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

The whole G5 PowerBook thing is dumb, as is the watercooling in the PowerMac G5.

Here's why:

- PC notebooks frequently contain a 70W+ Pentium 4-M CPU.

- The TDP of the PPC 970 is 90W. The PPC 970FX, used in the second-generation PowerMacs (the liquid cooled ones) is 55W.

- A PowerPC G5 notebook would have issues with cooling and battery life. However, these issues would be less severe than they would be on Pentium 4-M notebooks.

- Other notebook manufacturers have been building Pentium 4-M notebooks for years. Some are as light as 5.2lbs. Now, Apple probably couldn't release a G5 12" Powerbook, but they certainly *could* release a higher-end 17" PowerBook G5. If Dell can create a 17" notebook with a 105W P4 Prescott, Apple can certainly create a 17" notebook with a 55W PPC970FX.

- Desktop manufacturers, such as HP, have successfully created cool and quiet systems around the P4 Prescott. Even two PPC970FX CPUs are only 5W higher in TDP than a single P4 Prescott. The liquid-cooling and thermal zones of the G5, while cool, are unneccessary. Companies like HP make systems that are every bit as quiet as the G5, without the 9 fans or liquid cooling.

Clearly Apple could release a PowerMac G5, but it wouldn't be as thin and light as the 12" G4.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[BasilBrush]

The serious cooling of the PowerMac G5s is about making them run quietly. Compare with the racket coming out of a typical PC, or even some of the earlier PowerMacs.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[the pickle]

Clearly Apple could release a PowerMac G5, but it wouldn't be as thin and light as the 12" G4.

Which is why they can't release a PowerBook G5 yet.

p

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[BandwidthHog]

You can get angled stands for it that purport to be effective heat sinks. That's all I know other than that I need to get a quieter power supply fan for my 533 tower.

Quoth the access_log evermore: GET http://apple.slashdot.org/ok.txt HTTP/1.0" 404 200

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[Dot.Com.CEO]

I have the latest 12in AlBook and it's not that bad. I played around with an earlier model before settling on the 1.33MHz one. It really was getting too hot after a while, especially after playing a 3d game (neverwinter nights in my case). The 1.33 one gets warm and only gets moderately hot (ie not hotter than a comparable windows laptop) when playing games. The main inconvenience of that is that the tiny fan starts working full time and makes a hell of a noise (for a laptop, that is).

So, to sum it up, the faster G4 PBs run much, much cooler than the past generation.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[prockcore]

Actually, I thought I read someplace that the G5 processors don't generate quite as much heat as some of the latest AMD and Intel offerings.

You read wrong. The AMD 64 chips are the coolest running chips around. Stock CPU heat sink and fan and 0 case fans and my cpu runs at 50 deg C.

Re:Oft-Overlooked Point

[HuguesT]

Here is the data I could find on the web:

A: There are five Intel "mobile" processors that can be used in current notebooks.

* Mobile Pentium 4-M
400MHz bus, 512KB, max. TDP* ~30-35W

* Mobile Pentium 4
533MHz bus, 512KB, max. TDP ~60-76W

Prescott (90nm) variant of Mobile P4: 88W (!)

* Mobile Celeron
400MHz bus, 256KB, max. TDP 30-35W.

* Pentium M
400MHz bus, 1MB, max. TDP ~22-24.5 W.

Dothan (90nm) TDP lowered to 21W.

So you are quite right, however the P-IV M notebooks are seen as "luggable desktop replacements", not as true portable. Autonomy is very limited.

Current Apple notebooks are noted for small size and long battery life. Maybe they don't want to destroy this image.

The thing is a

[Anonymous Coward]

Certified TOASTER. They run way too hot, hence the hundreds of holes in the case, and STILL they burn up. Apple, you goofed on this Underpowerd and overheating machine.

The All-in-One is cool,

[Hawthorne01]

but I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat. I own a G4 17" iMac and love it, but I know my needs and the needs of the middle school down the road are two different things.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Laivincolmo]

A middle school really doesn't need a powerful G5 processor when you think about it though. If they're just going to maybe browse the web, and maybe have a few games installed, perhaps the eMac would be a more affordable solution : Apple Store

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Mononoke]

A middle school really doesn't need a powerful G5 processor when you think about it though.

Sure they do. They need to invest in hardware which will most likely still be viable 5 to 10 years down the road.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[ChristTrekker]

Exactly. A "pizza box" that they could easily replace monitors on would be just the thing. Schools need computers to last a long time, and kids can be tough on them - repeatedly sending them back for LCD repair would get old fast. Though the AIO "almost no cables needed" style has some points in its favor too.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[crackshoe]

educational implementations tend to use (and often prefer) the all-in-one. Its easier to move (mobile computer carts), harder to steal parts (its actually an issue - i promise). From the all-in-one g3 (with the clear plastic hood which led to the imac, if i don't misremember, which i might) to the emac (and, if you want to go farther back, the long line of apple all-in-one units).

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[prichardson]

The iMac came before the Blue and White G3.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[bob beta]

I make part of my living buying used hardware from School Surplus auctions.

Believe me, no School makes hardware purchases thinking five years ahead. They sell off perfectly good hardware two years after purchasing it, and are off running after the 'shiney new' stuff.

There's an auction this coming Friday here, and I am worried if I have a big enough truck this time to haul off the goodies I get.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[BasilBrush]

I agree with your last point. The crud that accumulates round the back of a computer with lots of cables is bad. The crud round the back of a school computer is worse.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct that the G3 All-in-One preceded the iMac by several months, and was available ONLY to the education market so between that and the eMac it's pretty clear evidence that there's a serious demand for all-in-one from schools. However, as far as I know the G3 AIO (Artemis) did not have a clear plastic hood. I do recall that Apple started playing with translucent plastics at least a year before the iMac such as the latch on the PowerMac 8600 and the front of the LaserWriter 8500.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

crackshoe was talking about the G3 All-in-one with the clear hood, which was styled somewhat like the 5500 macs before it. Monitor, zip, floppy, cdrom and board/cpu all in one.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the 5500 was a PPC603, not a G3 (ppc750)

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, a 1.6 G5 isn't exactly the most powerful processor on the block. Think low-end pentium, at best.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[prichardson]

if that's the case, then yes, it was introduced before the iMac

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Malacon]

I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat.

They did that a few years back - it was called the G4 Cube and it did horribly.

It was too pricey to justify it not having a Monitor OR any expansion. I have a feeling that with the LCD iMacs they can save some of the cost of the Hardware in the mass produced screen. Take out the screen and its harder to do make a profit.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[OS24Ever]

Actually the G5 is worse now that it's easier to get into the back of it. The G4 was pretty nice in that most of the stuff took enough work to get into that you could essentially catch someone before they got too far.

Not having received my new G5 iMac yet I can't comment on if you can get in and out quickly, but it never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that steal parts out of a computer in class, even at the college level.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

It was, but it was mainly sold through edu-channels only, so even a lot of Mac Fans are not aware that it existed.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Dude, a 1.6 G5 isn't exactly the most powerful processor on the block. Think low-end pentium, at best.

I don't think it would be too bad, I would place it at the equivalent of a 2500+ rated Athlon64. It's not the latest, but I'd guess not much education-related software availalbe for the life of this thing really would be hurting for more power. I'd say maybe CAD programs or video editing, but I've done a lot with a far slower computer, and there's still the full PowerMac G5.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[BasilBrush]

In a school, they would need to be secured to the desk with a laptop lock and cable - the fixing point is there. From the looks of it this also stops the back being removed.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Hao Wu]

They need to invest in hardware which will most likely still be viable 5 to 10 years down the road.

Incomplete reasoning. If the nursing home purchase iMAC stations, many users may not be living in 5 to 10 year.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[feldsteins]

A middle school does in fact need a G5. The education market is one of the prime customers for things like iMovie and iDVD. These apps definitely get some bang out of the G5. The days when all schools did was "just browse the web," launch word and play Carmen SanDiego are gone, my friend.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[crackshoe]

the g4 imac, maybe. but the g4 and blue g3 towers (which i had in my high school computer graphics lab and a school papers) were pop-open and goink style, stripping ram being a 5 second operation. at least on the g5 imac you need to unscrew stuff (and maybe they'll have safety screws, although that only lasts until a kid gets a copy of the bit). the older imacs, though - the bubbles and the flat panel white models were at least a half hour operation (i only know all this because i own a g4 tower and a white imac - i promise)

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[LWATCDR]

I do have to wonder if a middle school needs iMovie or iDVD at all. We are talking what 6th or 7th grade right? Why the heck do they need iMovie? Shouldn't they be learning math and reading books?
Having internet access and writing papers on a computer are great uses but do they really need to be making movies?
How many of our kids are just already too fat, dumb, and video addicted as it is? How about music and art programs that involve things like paper, clay, or things that do not require electrical power?
I think computers are great but even computer usage is becoming passive. Stick in a video game or surf the web. What happened to creating?

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Mononoke]

the g4 imac, maybe. but the g4 and blue g3 towers (which i had in my high school computer graphics lab and a school papers) were pop-open and goink style, stripping ram being a 5 second operation.

Not Apple's fault. An off-the-shelf padlock will keep people out of that case design. They could have bought padlocks by the case for next to nothing and solved the problem.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[feldsteins]

[i]Having internet access and writing papers on a computer are great uses but do they really need to be making movies?[/i]

What's the difference between researching and writing a paper about it and researching a topic and making a movie about it? (Besides the fact that writing a paper makes you a more practiced writer, a noble goal in and of itself of course.) I believe that it can be an important tool for kids to be able to express themselves in the dominant form of media in their daily lives - video. It can be engaging in ways that writing a paper can't.

Note: I'm not advocating doing away with traditional methods like writing papers. But I think any educator worth his/her salt is going to tell you that having multiple instructional/assessment methods is a good thing.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Lars T.]

repeatedly sending them back for LCD repair would get old fast.

Just do it yourself.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Jeremy Erwin]

Educational institutions (not teachers or students) can get a stripped down model-- half the hard drive space, no optical drive, GeForce4MX graphics for $1099.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Lars T.]

G3 AIO (unframed).

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you even buy a 2500+ anymore? Entry level Dells are 2.8Ghz P4s.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[crackshoe]

you rock

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[RickHunter]

I knew people on the yearbook/graduation committees and working for the school newspaper that would've killed for the kind of software Macs just come with now back when I was in high school.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Maserati]

Yeah, but those same people would also have killed for a double latte before first period, so don't draw too many conclusions.

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[Squozen]

Try the crud around the back of the shelter sheds!

Re:The All-in-One is cool,

[MarcQuadra]

Alright, I work at a school. I recommend Apple boxes where the little kids go precisely because they don't have NEARLY as many cables for the kids to mangle. A headless Apple box might hit the financial sweet-spot, but the VALUE of lower IT costs, simplicity, and the just-works philosophy would be lowered, not to mention the 'image' of the product. It's a lot easier to market a whole package than an aluminum box.

Personally, I'd like to see the PC world head in this direction. It would make a LOT of people's jobs a lot easier if computers were one-piece units. Do you have any idea how much trouble a PC is on a desk when you've got at least six cables going to and fro? Imagine that it's your job to set up or maintain several hundred machines exposed to six year olds, and you have a choice between one-piece units or Dell boxen.

I have always loved mac stuff,

[deutschemonte]

but being a poor techie, I just can't afford it.

I wait with bait on my breath for a simple, cheap ($500-$800), computer from them that includes the styling and beauty of the more expensive models.

But I guess that's why I am typing this on my old 497mHz 128MB ram linux box.

Hail the new "free" economy and the frustion of Apple that they are not considered by many to be an alternative to the mighty monopolistic broken OS.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[MatSimpsk]

Well, the eMac comes in at just under you $800 threshold

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[Alan Hicks]

I wait with bait on my breath for a simple, cheap ($500-$800), computer from them that includes the styling and beauty of the more expensive models.

How about a powerbook? You've got thirty minutes.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[MadChicken]

I love my eMac - I wish I held out until the USB 2.0 ports were available though. You just can't beat the value in this baby.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[Anonymous Coward]

what's wrong with the eMac?

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[Kenshin]

497 millihertz?
Wow, that IS old...

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[penguinoid]

8010 products beneath your current threshold.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you have a tendency to eat worms or other forms of bait, you may have intended to say that you wait with bated breath.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[Anonymous Coward]

I wait with bait on my breath

You're eating worms because you can't get a cheap Mac? I think that's a little extreme.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[the_rev_matt]

They already have one in that price range. It's called the eMac. My wife has been using one for over a year doing professional audio production and is thrilled with it.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[MacGod]

I wait with bait on my breath for a simple, cheap ($500-$800), computer from them that includes the styling and beauty of the more expensive models.

Yeah, and I wait on baited breath for BMW to release a $10,000 car with all the grace, beauty, styling, comfort and power of their 5 and 7-series models.

Some things just aren't in the cards.

Re:I have always loved mac stuff,

[flamdrag]

I call bullshit.

Saying you can't afford a $1300 iMac versus a $800 shitbox is meaningless. I have always hated that position.

[whine] I can't afford a Mac like all you rich people. They are so expensive. I have to subsist on bread and water and use stone tablets. [/whine]

Well, deal with it. Obviously you have some means of income otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to post to Slashdot.

Why don't you look on eBay or look into refurbished equipment or save an extra $1 a day for year instead of towing the same old 'I can't afford it.' line.

I apologize if there is some horrible reason why you can't afford an iMac but I find that most people who state that are either envious or self loathing.

I can't afford a VW Phaeton but I don't go around whining about it. Wait a minute . . .

Cooling or Burning?

[scoser]

...special fans that run at low speeds making the cooling very quiet.

And inducing third degree burns should you ever touch the case because it has turned into one giant heatsink?

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[CountBrass]

How is some random and unfounded speculation "insightful": flamebait or troll surely would be more accurate.

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Happens quite often. I'm guess its because there *isn't* a "random and unfounded speculation" classification?

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[Anonymous Coward]

The case on any computer is part of the heat dissipation mechanism. My home PC after some use gets to around body temperature, so it's not random or unfounded that the "case is a giant heatsink". The iMac also has a little less surface area than a typical beige box, therefore (heat input, and losses through non-radiative channels, being equal) will reach a higher temperature (roughly Heat output proportional to Area times Temperature (in Kelvin) to the fourth power).

What is speculation is whether the heat input of the iMac components is greater than the innards of a high-end beige box. On the one hand, it has an LCD screen in there, and G5s are supposedly fairly hot processors (plus a slightly more powerful graphics card than my machine). On the other hand, I have an extra HD and an extra optical drive in mine, so I think an estimation that it's even is pretty reasonable.

The other assumption, that of equal losses through other channels, is very tricky - this depends on the air cooling. I doubt the iMac cools much more than my box via this method, since it's right in the users face rather than under a desk, so we might as well call that even too.

So, based on the most reasonable speculation available, the iMac case will be a little hotter than a fairly typical PC, probably around 40 degrees C. This isn't hot enough to burn skin, but the original poster wasn't making a huge exaggeration. I certainly wouldn't touch one if the fans have stopped working.

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[CountBrass]

Rubbish.

The case on the G4 iMac is not a heatsink. For a start it's plastic!

The case on most Wintel laptops (eg Dell) are also plastic and not heat sinks.

So much for that load of bollocks. Anymore random and illinformed comments to make?

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I have my hand on my PowerMac G5's aluminum case right now. I can barely hear the fan. And guess what? IT'S COOL.

Re:Cooling or Burning?

[phillymacmike]

No one said it was a good heatsink....

Air is a poor heat conductor, yet it's used constantly for that purpose by system designers.

You take what you can get.

It's very user serviceable

[Anonymous Coward]

From Apple's Site:

Think you need a new part? You can replace many of your iMac G5's parts yourself.

The iMac G5 is designed to make it easy for you to install replacement parts if you need to. The parts you can install yourself are:

AirPort Extreme Card

Memory - DDR 400 MHz (PC3200) SDRAM

Hard drive

Optical drive

Power supply

LCD display

Modem card

Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, NVIDIA graphics processor, and so forth).

The back supposedly has only three screws holding it on. Plus a optional wall mounting bracket is available from Apple. The keyboard can go under the computer to save desk space, fans are quiet too!

Team Mac OS X #1971 is going to love Folding@home with this new toy.

I love it and definably getting one!

Re:It's very user serviceable

[OS24Ever]

This is a big plus in my book. I'm a little anti-external drive and would prefer internal drives. The 60 Gigger in my G4 is woefully inadequate for all my home movies, music, and the like. Upgrading it however would voide my Applecare warranty on the thing rather quickly.

This way, when the 250GB drive I ordered becomes 'too small' in a year or two I can yank it out, put in a 1TB drive and be just fine.

Re:It's very user serviceable

[numark]

Hard drives are considered "user servicable parts" under AppleCare and therefore changing them doesn't void your warranty. In fact, virtually everything you could buy off the shelf and install into your G4 will be considered user servicable. The only things that could void your warranty would be, say, changing out the logic board or other devices that aren't readily available and must be procured from Apple.

Now, of course, if you go to install a hard drive, and you snap pins off of the IDE connector on the logic board, then yeah, you would void your warranty. This is no different from PCs. However, assuming that everything gets done correctly, AppleCare will continue to cover your computer regardless of what you've upgraded.

Re:It's very user serviceable

[Anonymous Coward]

you're comepletely wrong.

any part that is NOT listed as CIP (customer installable part) by apple for a particular model of Mac wiill VOID the warranty if removed or repaired by anyone other than an authorized service provider.

http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/index.html

how about doing some research next time, idiot?

Re:It's very user serviceable

[bedouin]

I think this is the most overlooked thing about the new iMacs. Except for the graphics chip, virtually everything can be swapped and replaced. Who knows, third party manufactures may offer CPU upgrades for it in the future. It's really the first all-in-one Mac that I might be comfortable owning.

BTW: why aren't we seeing commercials for it on TV yet?

Re:It's very user serviceable

[Anonymous Coward]

The graphics chip is on the main-board, which is swappable. I believe this is Apple embracing those who wish to upgrade an all in one. I just can't wait for the after-market touch-screens... how portable is ups nowadays anyway?

Re:It's very user serviceable

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering its using a SATA drive, you are going to have to 'try' very hard to break the SATA connector.

Re:It's very user serviceable

[Anonymous Coward]

"...if you go to install a hard drive, and you snap pins off of the IDE connector on the logic board..."

How many pins on a SATA connector?

This sums is up...

[OneOver137]

..."teeny little things like that that tend to, over the course of time, make people love their Mac and inspire magazines like yours, versus people getting [angry] over time at their PCs because of little things that drive them nuts."
It's that level of attention to detail that people cherish. God is in the details.

Re:This sums is up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely. I was totally stoked when i saw that my iBook power brick had these little arms for wrapping the cable around and a little clip to hold it all together. The closest thing I've seen to it on PC notebooks is a silly little rubber strap that is awkward to use.

Everything adds up:
- the LED indicator on the power cable itself.
- pulsing sleep indicator
- lack of protruding bits
- magnetic lid latch
- battery power meter on the OUTSIDE of the battery. I've never seen this on a PC notebook.
- putting the ports where you can actually SEE them with out having to get up or move the machine.

Re:This sums is up...

[Anonymous Coward]

battery power meter on the OUTSIDE of the battery. I've never seen this on a PC notebook

I've seen it on several, from a 10 year old TI to a 3 year old Compaq.

Re:This sums is up...

[Anonymous Coward]

... actually it's "the devil's in the details."

Re:This sums is up...

[CountBrass]

Really? Have some pictures of a 10 year old TI showing this feature? I've owned/used many laptops, starting with the first "luggables" amd the first time I saw an external meter like this was on my PowerBook. Not calling you a liar or anything (yet ;-) but I'm astonished I'd missed something like that.

Re:This sums is up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple buys the same batteries as everyone else. The thing is that on many PC laptops, you have to remove the battery to see the LEDs.

Re:This sums is up...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen it on several Dell models (X300, D600, and D800 models to be specific). It is a very nice idea and I am glad that all of them have decided to incorporate it.

Still, love my PowerBook G4!
BC

Nothing about Extreme Airport specs...

[-ing AnonymousCoward]

So it's not going to be usable by Free Software operating systems which is a shame.

Apart from Sun boxes, nothing is better than a Linux on a Mac.

Re:Nothing about Extreme Airport specs...

[mrchaotica]

I beg to differ, I think Mac OS on a Mac is slightly better than Linux on a Mac.

Linux is my favorite on a PC, though.

All fine and dandy

[Udo Schmitz]

But looking at my iMacDV, or to be more specific listening to my iMacDV I wonder when will Apple be building fanless Macs again? Ever?

Just gimme my 999$ G5 Cube ...

Re:All fine and dandy

[Anonymous Coward]

Doubtful, though the G5 iMac comes close. The vertical design and vent placement allows for some degree of convection cooling, but the G5 produces too much heat (at least at times, based on my experience so far with my Power Mac G5) for convection alone to be sufficient even in a vertical case. Fan-assisted convection is about as good as it'll probably get from here on out.

Re:All fine and dandy

[payndz]

My iMacDV (on which I'm typing this) may not have a fan, but it's *never* been silent. Damn, the whine of the hard drive is annoying!

Re:All fine and dandy

[Jeff DeMaagd]

If iMac G5 really emits 25dB, then it is very good. That is quieter than most hard drives, I think Seagate rates their queter drives around 27dB or so

Re:All fine and dandy

[TylerL82]

Imagine working at a high school with multiple labs of 30 iMac DVs.
Hearing them all "sing" in unison when the lab's empty and quiet borders on maddening.

Re:All fine and dandy

[the pickle]

I wonder when will Apple be building fanless Macs again?

As soon as The Steve gets out of recuperation and asserts his Iron Will on the otherwise-sound engineering process.

Just like he did with the first four Macintosh models, a mistake which cost consumers dearly due to having to replace heat-damaged parts.

I like Jobs as a businessman, but he's a terrible engineer.

p

Re:All fine and dandy

[mrchaotica]

Maybe you should consider replacing the hard drive?

Re:All fine and dandy

[BasilBrush]

My G4 iMac is virtually silent compared with my Dell, and to my ASDL modem. I can hear the iMac drive when it wakes up from sleep, and that's about it. And I don't just mean virtually silent because the others are drowning it out. I mean virtually silent when they are switched off. If the G5 iMac is even quieter, that's amazing.

Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[reporter]

The iMac G5 is a full-blown workstation in its own right. It runs UNIX on top of a Power4-based microprocessor. Furthermore, its performance is competitive with the very best desktops based on the new 64-bit x86 processors.

Instead of focusing so much on styling, the marketing droids should show us some stats indicating the percentage of the engineering market that the G5 Macs have. I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[bob beta]

I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.

Not enough of the high end 'workstation' software has been ported to the Mac for this to be true. A lot of that software, regrettably, migrated over to NT from the UNIX workstations in the mid to late 90's. I doubt if it will migrate to the Mac anytime soon.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[ScottSpeaks!]

The iMac G5 is a full-blown workstation in its own right.

The low-end iMac G5 is - almost spec for spec - last year's low-end PowerMac G5. I should know: I have one (and paid nearly $1000 more for it).

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[System.out.println()]

I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.

Do tell, what other options are there? That's like saying that my poodle is the largest of my dogs after the retreiver... doesn't mean that my poodle isn't the smallest dog I own.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

You've only just discovered a longstanding Apple pricing policy -- every extra expansion slot costs $500.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Jeremy Erwin]

but you can use firewire-800. You can also cram 4 gb into the PMG5. The bus is also faster.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[huchida]

but you can use firewire-800. You can also cram 4 gb into the PMG5. The bus is also faster. ... And you will be able to update the graphics card (which is already better, I should add) and use PCI slots if you ever need to, as well as install a second internal drive... And replace the Superdrive yourself when it's inevitably the first thing to fail.

And you can use whatever monitor you want. I have a Viewsonic 17" LCD and 19" CRT attached to my G5, and both monitors together (and the ADC adaptor) cost less than a 17" Apple studio display. Dual monitor spanning is not even available on the iMac without a hack.

And you don't run the risk of having a pefectly functioning computer attached to a dead monitor some day or vice versa. I inherited an otherwise fine G4 iMac with a broken screen from a friend; Apple refused to repair it under Applecare (it was damaged during a move) and the cost of replacing the swing-arm LCD would be nearly as much as the computer is worth.

Then again, the iMac G5 is a bargain, and it is worth it if you don't need to expand. I would definitely recommend Applecare on any all-in-one system though.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[mattkime]

No its not. The frontside bus is half the speed. No Firewire 800. Half the total possible RAM.

Not to mention all the other goodies you get with the Powermac G5. PCI slots. Upgradable video. Two hard drive bays. Dual monitor support.

You may have paid nearly a grand more for it a year ago, but you still have more value than the current iMacs.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on what you're going to do with it.

If one isn't planning to use any of that, it offers them zero value.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing I've always wondered about is just why Apple haven't gone after more of the high-end scientific/technical market (or servers, really, for that matter.) As has been pointed out many times, a G5 Mac is basically a scaled-down IBM POWER5 system. It's just a lot cheaper. Lots of Unix stuff (free and non-free) already runs on OSX, and the stuff that doesn't would be a pretty easy port. They hype it to a degree on their website, but not as much as they (IMHO) should. I wonder - do they have some sort of agreement with IBM not to go after the workstation/server market too aggressively? In other words, Apple gets the low-end of the PPC market, but all the really high-end stuff are belong to Big Blue?

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[ScottSpeaks!]

That would be why I said "almost". Of course there are differences. The PowerMac has more expansion potential. The iMac takes less room. The PowerMac has a place to stack a Zip drive on top. The iMac has a display that tilts better than the 17" Studio LCD.

But it has the same number of processors, of the same type, running at the same speed. It has the same size hard drive, and the same class of optical drive. It comes with the same amount of RAM. It has roughly the same size display (17" widescreen, vs. 17" traditional). Most of the major specs match up. And if you unbox one of these new iMacs and set it up next to my 9-month-old PowerMac, most of the things one can do, the other will do about as well. The point being that by the standards of late 2003, this is a rather powerful machine. (And affordable.) Which oughta be good enough for most people.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Jeremy Erwin]

We'll just have to wait for the benchmarks.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[oingoboingo]

The low-end iMac G5 is - almost spec for spec - last year's low-end PowerMac G5. I should know: I have one (and paid nearly $1000 more for it).

The 1.6GHz iMac G5 appears to only use single-channel DDR RAM, whereas the 1.6GHz PowerMac uses dual channel. Then there's the stuff everyone else mentioned...533MHz FSB instead of 800MHz, no FireWire 800, 10/100 ethernet instead of gigabit, shitty non-upgradable 64MB nVidia FX 5200 graphics, only VGA out (no DVI), no PCI slots, only 1 SATA bay instead of 2, low-speed laptop sourced optical drive.

There are a lot of differences. It just depends if you need all the expandability and extra speed, or if you'd prefer to have a small form factor and a built-in 17" LCD.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

mods please ban this person he is a known troll.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the anal-retentive, penis-deficient benchmark worshippers should go right ahead and get the latest PowerMacs. The starving artist types who can't tell (or can't afford) the difference between a microsecond response time and a millisecond response time should get this iMac.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[damiam]

Furthermore, its performance is competitive with the very best desktops based on the new 64-bit x86 processors.

Not really. It's competitive for the price, but any new Opteron would blow it away. The G5 PowerMac, OTOH, is definitely in the same league as the top x86 boxes.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[dave1212]

the marketing droids should show us some stats indicating the percentage of the engineering market that the G5 Macs have.

iMac customers don't care about engineering usage stats. People visiting that page don't want to know what percentage of any market the chip's family has. Why would they reference the Power Macs on the iMac page?

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Jeremy Erwin]

You're probably one of those fools who was taken in by Intel's 386SX.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[StingRay02]

If one isn't planning to use any of that, it offers them zero value.

If one isn't planning to use any of that, then why would one decide to buy a PowerMac in the first place? And if one bought it solely for the G5 inside, then one shouldn't complain that one's not making full use of one's computer.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Sun and SGI workstations?

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[xrissley]

Point noted, but let me direct you to Apple's onw site:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=868 12
which states precisely that user can herself service (so: replace and or upgrade) the following:
- AirPort Extreme Card
- Memory - DDR 400 MHz (PC3200) SDRAM
- Hard drive
- Optical drive
- Power supply
- LCD display
- Modem card
- Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, NVIDIA graphics processor, and so forth).

So true, graphic card still seems hard to upgrade, so seems CPU itself, but this is less of a stuck design here, nice improvement, not?

Of course, mirror only display makes a point for powermac form factor.
re drives, we have firewire (not 800, so pro will still look at the powermac line).

All in all, the comparison lots of people keep on making with Powermac prooves one thing: the iMac G5 seems to be a nice powerhorse.

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

mods PLEASE ban this user he is a known troll

Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering

[hesiod]

> Sun and SGI workstations?

I thought SGI stopped making computers for some reason...?

iMac G4 arm will be missed

[mariox19]

We found that most people don't end up raising or lowering [the iMac G4 screen]. The big thing is the tilt direction...

Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4. I own one now. Occasionally I like to tilt my chair back and slump down. To match that posture, I move the iMac screen down, too. At other times I'm just tired of sitting. I then stand and raise the screen all the way up, tilting it all the way back. I can surf the 'Net comfortably for a little while this way. It's a nice change of pace.

I think the G5 iMac is a great machine, but I'll miss the screen mobility when I get one.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[immel]

I agree. My family uses a G4 iMac and we raise and lower the screen all the time. We use it just like an adjustable altitude swivel chair. Everyone has a place they want the monitor (and seat cushion) to be.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[daviddennis]

When I've raised this issue in previous articles on the new iMac, I have been informed that it's apparently VESA compliant and there are VESA arms that you can buy.

Not as elegant a solution as the original iMac - in fact, I wish the redesigned displays had an arm - but it should work.

D

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Given that the mount poing is based an open standard, I'd expect that third party telescoping mounts will be made available if there really is sufficient demand.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[OS24Ever]

I am one that won't miss the up/down motion of the iMac G4 that I have. My daughter has a bad tendancy to yank it all over the place because it moves with such ease. Not that she gets to touch the G5 when it gets here, because the G4 becomes hers to play Rolie Polie Olie and all the other Playhousedisney.com websites.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[System.out.println()]

That'll be a bitch to keep balanced when you don't have the luxury of putting all the weight of the computer guts in the base like the iMac G4 could.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[OgGreeb]

Since the G5 iMac will support a VESA mount, you can mount it on any floating arm, wall-mount it, etc.
Take a look at Ergotron for instance. You could mount two iMacs side-by-side on the same mount, or mount the iMac on an arm with the keyboard floating underneath.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The mount shown on Apple's site shows a third party mount that seems to clamp down on the table.

I think with a properly sized and located base, it shouldn't matter too much.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[Anonymous Writer]

The stand of the iMac G5 looks a lot like the stand of their Cinema Displays, which can be replaced with a VESA mount adapter kit. I'm sure this was by design. One type of VESA arm would probably work across the board for all the Cinema Displays as well as the iMac G5.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[DannyO152]

After months (or is that years) of denial. I finally went and had my post-middle-aged eyesight corrected and I opted for "transitional lenses." Transitional lenses suck, because the sweet spot for reading or doing close up work is in the lower eighth of the spectacles.

Using a Luxo Jr iMac at work has made these new glasses a less-than-complete disaster because I do lower the screen and angle it so that it is entirely lower than my chin and this makes it easier to work.

Love the look of the new iMacs. I want one, but I will miss that the new ones can only be tilted and not raised or lowered.

Oh. Did I mention transitional lenses suck? Get a reading set if you work a lot with a computer monitor.

Re:iMac G4 arm will be missed

[JeremyALogan]

you know... they are vesa wall-bracket mountable. quick search of google (I'm feeling lucky) brought me to this store. they're are plenty of optins for people who still want this. only now they can move the whole computer around with the same ease that before left them with a bulboub base on their desk. you also know good and well that there will be some pretty/appley wall mounts for this thing soon.

Apple devotees a little miffed

[SilentChris]

I've spent a lot of time on the Apple forums (I own a new iBook) and the reaction I've seen to the new iMac has been pretty "eh".

The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant. The iPod had a great design because it was functional enough to fit in a small pocket. It doesn't make a very good consumer PC design.

Also, people have been a little miffed by some design choices. Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing). Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable (which would've been a cool high-end feature). Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.

For now, I'm quite happy with my iBook. It has become my computer of choice in a house full of computers, and prompted me to buy an iPod. But I wouldn't buy the new iMac.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[phillymjs]

Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable

Some people don't read specs closely enough before bitching.

Apple will start selling a VESA mount adapter for the new iMac in October which opens up all kinds of mounting possibilities. The only thing that it can't do is hang flush against the wall, due to the power connection and ports (unless you modify the wall behind it to accommodate those).

~Philly

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Alan Hicks]

The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant.

I can't say with any certainty about the cube or original iMac, but the previous iMac was an expensive beast to manufacture with that movable arm. Getting rid of it likely reduced a large chunk of the most to make an iMac.

Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.

That's certainly something Apple regrets make no mistake about it, but it wasn't something they had a lot of choice over. The G5 iMac just couldn't be produced in large enough quantities for a release until IBM could get the G5 chips made. So this isn't really a marketing blunder, but a production blunder from a third party vendor. What are you gonna do?

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[bluk]

Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing)

I don't understand this question. There is no real base. The computer is the screen, and I'd rather have the ports running out of the back where they are less visible than on the bottom or some other thing. A printer is hooked up once so it's not like you're going to remove the USB cord often.

The computer is also wall mountable with it being VESA compliant so you can buy a compatible wall mount and just attach it. Also, if the wires were running out of the detachable base, how could you make it easily wall mountable and still have the expansion ports?

I think the biggest thing is that they missed the Fall school schedule, but there's not a whole lot they could do. They already knew they were behind over the summer and they posted a note on their website saying such (which is a strange move from Apple considering their history).

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[aluminumcube]

There will be a wall mount available on the Apple Store for the G5 iMac in October. It complies with the VESA spec and will cost $30.

As to the cable issue, I don't see how it's going to matter that much- cables in the base or cables from the side, your still going to end up with a bunch of wires sticking out the back of your computer any way it goes. For $220, you can upgrade to the Bluetooth mouse+keyboard AND get an AirPort Express which includes a USB port so you can print wirelessly.

In a way though, having the plugs where they are makes perfect sense though- My mom's G4 iMac was tucked back into her desk and it was always a PITA to move everything off the desk to pull it out and get to the ports when necessary. With people plugging and unpluging devices often (which a lot of people do in my experience as the family tech support guru), it makes sense to place accessability over aesthetics.

Or let me put it to you another way- Apple is an exceedingly anal retentive company when it comes to design. I for one would trust that they explored every option on where to put the ports and they decided that the side was the best solution. That isn't to say they are right, but I am willing to bet money there were more then a few pound-the-table arguments about that issue.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[ottffssent]

That's interesting that an Apple-centric crowd would be so unimpressed. I've long faulted Apple for poor (-ly suited to me, if not outright wrong) design choices in the past, and think the new iMac looks quite nice.

I was initially skeptical of the cable layout as well, but upon further consideration think it is actually quite reasonable. For one thing, it's harder to access the back of the base than it is the side of the monitor. If you're never adding or removing devices, it matters very little where the cords plug in, but with this layout it's simple to reach around the corner and plug something in temporarily, and not much more difficult to thread a cable through the guide. For another thing, the cables are more-or-less aligned along the horizontal axis of the machine, so tilting the monitor won't pull on your cables.

You're correct that the design is only elegant until you start throwing peripherals at it, and will lose a lot of its simplicity and coolness with a half-dozen USB devices sticking out of it. However, if the machine's as nice as it looks in a fairly bare setup, and still manages to be at least functional with lots of stuff attached, that's a pretty successful design.

I don't think Firewire800 is necessary, but I am surprised Apple didn't include gigE. I suspect it's primarily to differentiate their product lines, but given the cost difference (a few dollars), it's still surprising they didn't throw it in. Another thing that worries me is the hard drive. Apple claim 25dB(A) v. 28dB(A) for the older iMac design. However, the older imacs had a disturbing tendency to develop rather whiny hard drives after a while, completely shooting their low noise floor and doing it with a high-pitched drone which is way more offensive than fan noise. If the new imacs can maintain their low noise floor in actual use, I'll be quite pleased.

Naturally a final opinion will have to wait until I've commandeered one at an apple store for a while, but if they're physically stable, they look like great replacements for our aging iMac/600s.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[newkid]

Here is my take on it: I have been looking for a LAMP server at home and a large monitor (to plug into my powerbook), and this new iMac gives me a nice alternative.

• I need a dedicated server because I don't all want the services running on my laptop and eating CPU and battery while I am traveling.
• I need a large monitor when I do web design.
• I need the laptop because I'd never sit at a workstation for casual computing like reading the news.

I have been looking at getting a large LCD and a couple ITX boxes, but with the iMac, I get the workstation/server into one, and I can serve my home directory from my laptop if I need my emails while I work.

And because I have airport & bluetooth already, all I will add is one cable.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[kTag]

>Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable

iMac product page. Next to the VESA logo, you can read:
"The iMac offers the smallest footprint ever, but you can make that zero with an optional VESA mount. Hang it from the wall or swing it around on your desk."
So, now the iMac has a high-end feature, cool!!

--
kTag

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Unregistered]

You want cables in the base and wall-mountable? Those don't go together. And iirc, a wall mount will be availible.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Anonymous Writer]

I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing

Rather than hooking up a printer to the unit, the printer could be hooked up to an AirPort Express.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[SilentChris]

Let me rephrase the original complaint as I heard it: "Why is the VESA mount OPTIONAL when it comes standard with most LCDs today?"

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[noewun]

I've spent a lot of time on the Apple forums (I own a new iBook) and the reaction I've seen to the new iMac has been pretty "eh".

There's only one thing Apple fanatics love more than opening the box of their newest Powermac - bitching about how Apple fucked up with every new product. These are the same people who complained that the iPod was ugly and would fail. It's enough to make me avoid Apple forums for a week after a new product announcement.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Diamondback]

Just like no one seems to realize you can use a VESA mounting arm to attach the iMac to whatever you want, you could use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse along with wireless ethernet. With the airport extreme, or other wireless print servers, you can print without cabling from the computer to the printer.

sure, you can also plug everything in, but you can also NOT plug anything in except firewire storage.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[iroll]

Maybe he meant "out of the bottom" of the device, rather than out of the back. Seems to me like having the cords hanging from the bottom would have been as (if not more) useful/attractive than having them plug into one side of the back of it.

The only reason I can think of for doing it the way that they did is that you could bundle the cords together with and send them back down the stand, thus minimizing their appearance. But it just seems awkward for pluging in something like a USB camera, rather than plugging into the bottom or side.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[mrchaotica]

Because people who like the normal base won't need it, and getting the balancing and such right was hard enough without making it VESA compliant at the same time?

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Anonymous Coward]

The computer can be separated from the base and attached to a 3rd party arm according to some specification. ( i think it's sort of like hostpital tv's mounted on swing arms ) If the wireing went through the base, you couldn't have it work with the arm without the base attached.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[BasilBrush]

Because they are using the bottom as an air vent and place to put the speakers. Because to see what you are doing with them you'd have to lay the computer on it's back rather than just swivel it. Because if you mount the iMac to a backboard using the VESA mount in a library or internet cafe situation you can route the wiring without it being visible (and fiddleable) at all.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[iroll]

Touché

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[cowscows]

One of the downsides to Apple's history of innovation is that people begin to expect unrealistic things from them. And all the rumor sites just making crap up doesn't help either. For a lot of people, when they see a picture of this new iMac, if it isn't something so entirely different from anything they've seen before, they're disappointed.

Apple's trying to walk a middle of the line approach here. Use lessons learned in past designs, both by them and by competitors, while also making something distinctly Apple. And a lot of people are upset because the computer on the back of the LCD has been tried before. Of course, a lot of other companies had mp3 players out before the iPod, and look how well that's worked out.

Oh, and a last comment on the cables issue. I've got one of the aluminum cinema displays, which is similar in a lot of ways. Same stand, same basic mount. It has two firewire and two usb ports on the back of it, and honestly, you can hardly even see the cables hanging down behind it. The bottom edge of the monitor is close enough to the desk that you don't really notice the wires that much. If you imagine cables being plugged in to Apple's promo-shots, the mental image is unattractive, because the machine is photographed on a plain white background. In real life, desks are full of stuff, people are used to cables everywhere, and you probably don't even notice them anymore.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that most people see Apple as one of the greatest industrial design houses ever assembled and get frustrated when Apple does some seemingly questionable things. For example:

1. The vast amount of blank white space below the monitor. Yes, it's probably necessary and it does invoke a relationship with the eMac and iPod, but in many pictures, it simply looks too large and out of place. It could appear better in person so I'm reserving judgment on that.

2. The hard drive and optical drive are mounted on their sides and on an angle. This potentially hinders performance and some say introduces a higher rate of errors and drive failure. Additionally, the orientation of the drives is contrary to the principles that Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive said were critical in designing the sunflower/swing arm/luxo/lamp -styled iMac. This design

3. The optical drive is a slot-loading drive most likely used in Apple's laptops. Slot loading laptop optical drives mounted on their side severely inhibits the performance. Compare the read and write speeds of the eMac and the new iMac. The eMac has a better optical drive.

4. The GPU is pretty lethargic and should have been beefier to accommodate games like Doom3... especially since it's not upgradeable. I'm willing to ignore this though since the Mac gaming community is small and most power users will be buying PowerMacs. Still, it would be nice if they utilized an upgradeable GPU like the new laptop standards being created by ATI and Nvidia. That would give Apple the best of both worlds. Low cost and upgradeability.

5. Lower Front Side bus speed. Its still uncertain how much the lower FSB will affect performance since the memory isn't dual channel, but I still hate to see things purposefully crippled like what they do with the GPUs to prevent monitor spanning.

6. Lack of Gigabit Ethernet. Yeah, it's likely the hard drive and other components would limit the performance of gigabit ethernet, it still would have been nice to get a potentially higher performance NIC especially since the cost of doing to is probably next to nothing.

7. Lack of Firewire 800. This doesn't bother me too much as I don't think most people in the iMac's target market would use it or be able to take advantage of the higher speeds. However, it should probably have been included to help legitimize and promote the standard more. It's difficult to find drives and other devices utilizing the standard and the more machines out there, the more peripheral manufacturers are likely to produce products for it. My fear is that USB 3.0 or some other inferior spec will end up replacing firewire 800. Look to USB 2.0 and Firewire 400 as an example.

8. Finally, there are a few design flaws that are nit-picking, but still there. Why is the power button placed below all of the cables. It should be placed on the top of all the ports to prevent the cables from getting in the way. As it is now, if you have a lot of cables attached, you have to find your way through them to turn the machine on. Granted cable management may help alleviate this issues, but I still see it as design common sense that went ignored.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the G5 iMac and may end up getting one. My complaints are simply observations I make where I believe Apple went astray. Again, it's the fact that Apple always comes so close to perfection that make the flaws stand out even more. I just wish someone would get answers as to why Apple made certain design choices like the FSB, GPU, Gigabit, and most importantly why they contradicted themselves by throwing the computer on the back and mounting the optical drives vertically.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[thatguywhoiam]

I don't think Firewire800 is necessary, but I am surprised Apple didn't include gigE.

Just as an interesting aside... I mentioned this to an engineer friend of mine and he pointed out that GigE controllers actually tend to throw off quite a bit of heat... maybe that was the deal-breaker.

Re:Apple devotees a little miffed

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding #8, in one of the promo videos Phil mentions that the power button is on the exact opposite side of the power/sleep light.

Another question may be, "why is there a power button?" Since I switched from Wintel to a 12" rev. C PowerBook, I never turn it on/off. It goes to sleep when I don't use, and it wakes up instantly when I begin typing or using the mouse.

I didn't know

[News for nerds]

a fat laptop machine sells well.

Re:I didn't know

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you've never seen Alienware or Dell Laptops?

Most of us?

[Udo Schmitz]

Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4.

Those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category use a Mac anyway.

Re:Most of us?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Wasn't the article more specific than that? To me it read like "most iMac G4 users", not "most people"...

Re:Most of us?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category use a Mac anyway.

Yes, we know, we know... you "think different" -- you use a Mac instead of a PC, you'd rather make an iMovie of your trip to the Volvo dealership than watch a football game, you'd rather put your lil' weenie into a man's butt than any part of a woman... we get it. Fuck off already.

Re:Most of us?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me football isn't gay.

Re:Most of us?

[Anonymous Coward]

Football is extremely gay. Most American males are latently gay as well, this is where the fear comes from, of finding out their deep dark secret.

No explanation for crappy video card

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did apple go and ruin the iMacG5 by putting the FX5200 video in it? They could have picked ANYTHING and it would have been better than that. At the overpriced point the iMacG5 is it should come with a MUCH better video card.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[The Analog Kid]

The iMac has never been a gaming machine, nor for graphic design, if you want that then you need to spring for a PowerMac. The 5200 will handle anything that Quartz throws at it though.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[aldoman]

What is it then? Because if it doesn't game, do graphics or do Motion, then a $299 walmart box can do nearly everything it can do. Plus it runs Linux.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[Prof.Phreak]

What is it then? Because if it doesn't game, do graphics or do Motion, then a $299 walmart box can do nearly everything it can do. Plus it runs Linux.

Yes, but nobody gets envious because of a $299 walmart box...

Not to mention that whole artistic/gay thing.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[GregChant]

What is it then? Because if it doesn't game, do graphics or do Motion, then a $299 walmart box can do nearly everything it can do. Plus it runs Linux.

You don't need a fast GPU to do desktop publishing or graphic design (using programs like Adobe Photoshop, Adobe InDesign, or Quark XPress). In addition, the $299 walmart box [sic] doesn't run Mac OS X. (Sorry linux fanboy, not everyone wants to run linux)

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[Anonymous Coward]

Cooling is a problem on higher-end cards, dumbass.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[cruachan]

Reasonable point, but the FX5200 was considerably worse than the FX5600 and wouldn't run in a lot cheaper - certainly nothing that would significantly hit the price point. Does seem a bit of an odd decision.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[base3]

So you're admitting that Apple leverages its OS monopoly to sell hardware?

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[jedrek]

I does game, it does do graphics and Motion. It also requires less space than either my 17" monitor or the main case, runs the slickest UNIX-based system ever created and includes a 17" wide-screen LCD. That's what the extra grand is for.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[IntlHarvester]

> The iMac has never been a gaming machine,

If Joe Yuppie goes and buys a shiny new Mac, he has the reasonable expectation that the kids will be able to fire up Doom3 or Halo and get decent play out of it. That's what people do with home computers -- play games.

If that's not the case, he might think "Damn I spent a lot of money on that Apple, and the kids hated it. Next time I'm getting something else." He is probably not going to think "Next time I'm dropping $2500 to get a G5 with the PDQ9000 video card."

The video card in these things seems to violate the Apple principle of "It just works".

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[TylerL82]

if you want that then you need to spring for a PowerMac. The 5200 will handle anything that Quartz throws at it though.

I had a PowerMac 5200.
http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml
..but having Quartz throw ANYTHING at it would probably cause it to shatter into a million pieces.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[p2psecure.com]

It doesn't matter. Anyone who seriously needs a decent video card (or even knows the difference for that matter), will opt for the dual-proc system that Apple offers anyways...

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Apple does not sell OS, it does not sell hardware. It sells a complete, out of the box solution.

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[aaroneous88]

I don't know why everyone calls the 5200fx "crap". I can run Halo (w/o shaders, but everything else cranked) just fine with my Radeon 9000 Pro w/64 MB VRAM on my G4/1.2GHz tower. America's Army and UT2K3 are quite smooth as well. And I'd assume that the 5200fx is significantly better than what I have. I'll admit, the iMac still isn't a "gaming" computer, but come on people! Quit being framerate snobs!

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[Gorbag]

If Joe Yuppie goes and buys a shiny new Mac, he has the reasonable expectation that the kids will be able to fire up Doom3 or Halo and get decent play out of it. That's what people do with home computers -- play games.

Actually, Joe Yuppie is sick and tired of his kids playing games on their computer instead of doing their homework or something more creative. If getting them an iMac keeps them on track to getting admitted to an ivy league and doing creative stuff with iLife, then Joe's all for it.

Back to PBS...

Re:No explanation for crappy video card

[Anonymous Coward]

Technical Specifications for Motion

System Requirements

Motion takes advantage of the Power Mac G5 to deliver highly interactive, real-time performance. Some systems provide greater interactivity than others, and it is important to choose the right system for your needs. Performance depends on the processor speed, the amount of RAM and the graphics subsystem.

Recommended system
Dual 2GHz Power Mac G5
2GB of RAM or more
Mac OS X v10.3.5 or later
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro graphics card or better
Ordering Information
Full Version M9484Z/A
Motion Product Overview
Motion Data Sheet
Motion Compatibility Checker

Minimum System Requirements
Macintosh computer with 867MHz or faster PowerPC G4 or G5 processor
4X AGP slot
512MB of RAM (2GB or more recommended)
Mac OS X v10.3.5 or later
QuickTime 6.5.1 or later
Display with 1024 x 768 resolution or higher (1280 x 1024 resolution recommended)

One of the following graphics cards:
-- ATI Radeon 9800 XT (R360)
-- ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (R350)
-- ATI Radeon 9700 Pro (R300)
-- ATI Radeon 9600 XT (RV360)
-- ATI Radeon 9600 Pro (RV350)
-- ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (RV M11)
-- ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 (RV M100
-- nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL (NV40)
-- nVidia GeForce Go5200 (NV34M)
-- nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra (NV34)- New iMac video card

10GB of disk space for application, templates and tutorial

DVD drive for installation

Is it the best solution no but it does meet the minimum system requirements. At the very least Apple could have included 128MB of video memory. But folks lets remember who the iMac was intended for, entry level - mid level computer users. Your basic modern day family. People posting in this forum are not basic computer users, we are all seasoned vets and expect more that's why we have the Power Mac G5 as an option with dual processors.

Re:Ok.....

[Anonymous Coward]

They mean it's easily re-located, RTFA.

Wow, but will it work

[pjbgravely]

The small size is stunning. It looks like a must have item for the rich kids. I hope for heat sake that they are under-clocking the processor. But what's up with the low memory size?

Re:Wow, but will it work

[ljavelin]

Only less than 2% of users use more than three applications at once, and therefore, as a compromise to cost, it seems wise to start with 256 MG of memory.

The 256MB of system memory keeps costs down for "3 applications at once" users... and lower cost means both more sales and more profit for Apple. As a nice side benefit, this new machine out-competes similar products from Dell & Gateway. HP/Compaq and IBM don't even begin to compete in this category

However, recognize that some users would want or need more memory. As a solution, the memory is upgradable using standard PC memory. Alas, its limit is 2 GB - a limitation of the particularly small board inside the unit. Only VM will get you more than 2 GB on this model.

Eventually, I think that Apple will come out with a new iMac that supports more than 2 GB - but that's likely to be many years away.

Diagnostic lights

[CaseyB]

There are even four indicator lights on the motherboard that an Apple Care person will tell you to look at the lights, and depending on what's lit up, can tell you the state of different sub-systems.

But first they force you to admit that there are actually five lights.

Re:Diagnostic lights

[Octagon Most]

First you have to prove you can handle two buttons on your mouse. Then they will give you that fifth indicator light.

Re:Diagnostic lights

[jb.hl.com]

I had this on a PC (MSI) motherboard 3 years ago.

Re:Diagnostic lights

[Kenja]

"I had this on a PC (MSI) motherboard 3 years ago."

But since Apple just invented this the MSI and ABIT boards with this feature must be from the future and where sent back through a worm hole.

Re:Diagnostic lights

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, an excellent Star Trek TNG episode http://www.section31.com/epmovies/tng/synopsis/pn2 37.html

Re:Diagnostic lights

[BlueStraggler]

I had this on my DecStation in 1989, and I'm sure it was just borrowed from the PDP-4 or some such thing.

Re:Diagnostic lights

[Anonymous Coward]

Fool, it is a reference to _1984_ a book published in 1949 but still relevent today. In one section the party man holds up four fingers and asks the main character how many figures are being held up. Winston says 4. Then the hack says "And if the party says that it is not four but five - then how many?"
"Four."
The word ended in a gasp of pain.

Warning to iMac customers

[Ars-Fartsica]

AT 256MB, the standard RAM allotment will not be adequate for most people. Note that if you upgrade via the Apple Store, by Apple's return policies the box is now a "custom build" and cannot be returned. Since the RAM seems to have been lowballed almost by design, it seems there is a concerted effort to minimize returns.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[krray]

Agreed - 256M is not nearly enough. 512M minimum and 1G is really a good _start_. With every Mac I've requisitioned the memory has been capped where possible.

Upgrading via the Apple Store will negate a return, but by no means will they not service/replace the unit when/where needed. Besides, once you buy a Mac and use it for a bit you will not WANT to return it.

If you do decide to upgrade in the future you'll also find that Mac's tend to hold some decent resale value. PC's are worthless.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[Ars-Fartsica]

Besides, once you buy a Mac and use it for a bit you will not WANT to return it.

That is no excuse for a very anti-consumer policy, particularly since Apple prides itself on customer care. Most PC vendors are far more accomodating.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[bob beta]

Goodness sakes. Return hardware to the vendor just to increase it's memory??

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[BasilBrush]

Or to minimise the price. Oh no, that's too obvious an explaination ;-)

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[Ars-Fartsica]

Yes because the cost of RAM is really the driving factor in PC design these days. ???? The cost of shipping this unit is probably more than the cost of the RAM.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[Junta]

Yeah, I concur. Actually, I've had nothing but headaches out of dealing with Apple directly when I had faulty hardware (the infamous logic board problem, among other things). To the point of being told they would charge me a non-refundable 70 dollar or so fee to determine if there was a warranty-qualified issue, and that was the only path to get them to do warranty service. Ultimately I learned a local non-apple owned repair shop would do it and dealt with me correctly, but when dealing directly with freaking Compaq even I got better direct warranty service.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[HeghmoH]

Buy your RAM third-party. It avoids this trouble, and is usually half the price too.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[Jeremi]

Upgrading via the Apple Store will negate a return, but by no means will they not service/replace the unit when/where needed.

Aggh! My brain!

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[BasilBrush]

Apple iMac 256MB->512MB config option = $75 $1299 $1374 Shipping cost $75

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[Anonymous Coward]

No 1 GB is pretty crap, you can hardly run a finder window with this. You really can't do anything without like 14 GB. OK, let's say 10 GB. But only one finder and one Mozilla window, right?

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[BasilBrush]

Grrr... all the less than signs got gobbled up by the HTML parser. That should read:

Apple iMac 256MB->512MB config option = $75.
$1299 < $1374.
Shipping cost < $75.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[BinxBolling]

Uh, no. The GP poster spoke about the cost of the RAM upgrade to Apple. The price they charge for the upgrade, which is what you quoted, is much higher than the cost. I assure you that they're paying much, much less than $75 more for the 512MB SIMM than they did for the 256MB one. (The retail price difference is about $45, and that almost certainly shrinks further when you remember that Apple isn't paying retail.)

Of course, part of that $75 price is also the extra labor needed to go and change out the SIMM, but that wouldn't be an issue if they'd just provide a reasonable amount of memory in the machine to begin with.

At any rate, the original point, that Apple engages in horrible nickle-and-diming on the RAM in their machines. I like Macs, and love my Powerbook, but when I bought my PB, I got it with the minimum RAM possible and immediately ordered a SIMM to triple the RAM, for less than Apple would have charged me to double it.

This is one of those little things that makes it hard to suggest Macs to my friends and family -- the whole point of the Mac is that "it just works" with a minimum of fuss. But to get the machine to work well, you do have to deal with the fuss of increasing the memory (either through Apple, which is overpriced and means you can't return it) or through an upgrade that you install yourself, which is beyond the abilities of the sort of users I'd like to recommend the Mac to.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[BasilBrush]

I'm well aware that he was refering to cost and I was referring to selling price. Cost price is irrelevant, cost price differences are not passed on to the consumer. Profit is always applied on top. The point is that that is $75 that Apple would not get if it equipped the machine with 512MB in the first place. Apple is of course LIKE ALL COMPANIES in the business of making profit. They are not charities. A difference of $75 is cerainly not nickle-and-diming - it's a significant amount of money.

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[mh101]

How much of a difference will upgrading from 256 meg make? I bought my Powermac G5 (Dual 1.8 Ghz) about a month ago, and haven't added any RAM. Granted, I haven't run any higher-end software like Office, but I've been satisfied with the performance I've been getting.

Contrast this with my Windows XP box at work, which has an Athlon XP 2200+ and at least a gig of RAM I think, and I find it very sluggish at times. Compared to it, my Mac with 1/4 the RAM is considerably more responsive. Maybe the key word there is "Windows" :)

If I think it's running great now at 256 meg, will I be totally blown away by the performance after adding a gig of RAM?

Re:Warning to iMac customers

[ViolentGreen]

If you put more RAM in, you will notice a difference. As for your XP box, google for "regclean." It works wonders

Design is a regression, but a progression in cost

[adzoox]

One thing that was mentioned at Expo Paris that isn't mentioned in this article:

The design was carefully thought out to save weight. [and therefore shipping/distribution costs] The previous sunflower design was costing almost as much as an eMac (with a heavy CRT) to ship because the base needed to be counterweighted. This was a "design flaw" of the sunflower iMac.

I had proposed something like this to maintain the sunflower design - which I believe to be one of the most unique electronic designs of the decade.

What a lot of people don't understand about the new unit is that with the stand - this unit actually takes up a little more depth than the eMac and carries NO side to side rotation - like the swingarm from the previous design did. If you add in this element - it actually takes up 40% more deskspace. One must have all of that area clear on the desktop to turn the display. [new iMac is much more static]

The more things change..

[callipygian-showsyst]

What! No Floppy Drive!? Didn't Steven learn *anything* from the NeXt Cube?

Re:The more things change..

[GigsVT]

I hear the mouse only has one button too, and there's no parallel port either!

Re:The more things change..

[Anonymous Writer]

What! No Floppy Drive!?

Are you referring to the 3.5" or 5.25" floppy drives? :P

Re:The more things change..

[jcr]

Floppy, hell! The new iMac STILL won't read paper tape or Hollerith cards!

-jcr

Re:The more things change..

[Anonymous Coward]

[ObjC retain];

Hasn't apple moved beyond that obsolete language?

Re:The more things change..

[jcr]

We'll give up Obj-C when you show us something better.

-jcr

Re:The more things change..

[Gorbag]

We'll give up Obj-C when you show us something better.

too easy

How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[Ars-Fartsica]

You seem to be predicating your argument on the OS and the processor. Come on, its 2004, competitive high-end desktops have to have bleeding edge video (hint - the iMac doesn't), redundant storage, gobs of memory (2GB minimum), and the ability to conveniently use your own kick-ass display.

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[Anonymous Coward]

> You seem to be predicating your argument on the OS and the processor. Come on, its 2004, competitive high-end desktops have to have bleeding edge video (hint - the iMac doesn't), redundant storage, gobs of memory (2GB minimum), and the ability to conveniently use your own kick-ass display.

Hear of the Power Mac?

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[GigsVT]

He was talking about engineering workstations, not LAN party boxes. When you say bleeding-edge video, it seems to imply something like an ATI 9800 or higher, when that sort of card is of little use for an engineer of any type.

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[Anonymous Coward]

thats ridiculous. NASA used geforce quadros for the mars rover missions.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/mars_rover.html

Dont remember hearing about how ATI and nVIDIA got into the high-end workstation market by offering their workstation cards at a much lower price than the old giants in the area?

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[damiam]

I'm not an engineer, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of their work involved CAD or other 3D modeling type applications, which definitely require high-end video.

Re:How many workstations have 256MB RAM?

[Anonymous Coward]

3D modeing....It dosen't necessairly require high end video, but it sure is nice.

The fundamental difference between gamer video and engineer video requirements is that engineering programs typically use very little to NO textures to get the job done. Therefore, being able to push the maximum amount of triangles is of most importance. Hardware lighting is also very desireable. It really helps on complex scenes.

Anywho...

dodging?

[mnemonic_]

"Q: Why no FireWire 800?

FireWire 800 had really been more attractive to a professional crowd. And really, more [appealing] than the speed has been the advantages [professionals] have with cable lengths."

Am I missing something, or did he do a terrible job of avoiding the question? I mean, it's not even subtle...

Re:dodging?

[Anonymous Coward]

FireWire 800, I could live without, but they really should have at least offered the option of Gig-E on these machines (like on the .edu configuration that doesn't include a removable media drive)-- then they'd be killer in NetBooting & Network Home Directory-using environments.

Re:dodging?

[HeghmoH]

I don't see any avoidance. It does require a bit of interpretation. Translated: "The only people who care about FW800 are professionals, who don't buy iMacs anyway."

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[aluminumcube]

I call BS.

The iMac G5 is progressive in price, technology and design. Since I will assume you agree with the first two-

In my book, design is all about making products that are elegant while being used and as minimal as possible when not being used. Based on those two (admittedly highly personal criteria) the iMac G5 is a BIG win.

Say what you will about it somehow being less compact then an eMac (exactly how are you measuring that?) the fact of the matter is that design is a about perception. I think any normal/sane/non-engineer person will look at the iMac G5 and immediately perceive it to be the most compact and elegant solution between previous iMacs and the eMac. Power perceived is power achieved in the world of consumer products, and the latest iMac wins hands down.

Then again, you also advocate that Apple should take a highly expensive, somewhat delicate, complex and oddly shaped device and expect the users of this product (designed to be as simple and elegant as possible) to fill the bottom of the bastard up with water as soon as they got it home so Apple could save a few $$$ on shipping costs...

Shoppers will reject this

[Burz]

They will look at the G5 iMac and think:

"Looks like a tablet, but without the touchscreen."

or

"A Mac pretending to be a tablet."

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[Anonymous Coward]

The target market for the iMac doesn't even know that there are such things as tablet computers.

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[evn]

Are x86 manufacturers are selling 10kg 20" tablet PCs with aluminum stands and no battery now?

I think they'll say "Nice LCD display but where's the computer?" and that is kinda the point.

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[mrchaotica]

You do realize this thing is about twice the size of a Tablet PC, right?

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[BasilBrush]

And not just in thickness...

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought the mac was a toilet pretending to be a computer.

Re:Shoppers will reject this

[mrchaotica]

Yeah, I meant that too (probably should have said 8x since it's twice as big in 3 dimensions)

eh...so its a laptop?

[jeephistorian]

Okay, so it sounds like a laptop that you need to tote a keyboard and mouse with.

Honestly, what major difference is there between a true desktop and a laptop? The abilty to add and remove parts. These are so proprietary, they can be modified only as easily as a laptop.

So why doesn't somebody put a "stalk" into a laptop so that ths monitor sits higher up, but can be used normal when traveling!

Fritz
_________________

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[Atomic Frog]

IBM had a prototype Thinkpad which did this. So far hasn't seen the light of production.

This is why you're not working at Apple.
A laptop ... is a laptop, NOT a desktop. Put a stalk on it, and that adds extra weight and extra size.
You're one of those guys who'd like to tote around a 3.5kg laptop the size of several small textbooks?

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[Anonymous Coward]

No offense, but I think you miss the whole point of an all-in-one system. Nothing for you to see here, move along.

And by 'these are so proprietary', certain parts are yes, like the Airport card (mostly because nobody else sells one designed to be used INSIDE a system that isn't), the LCD plane is likely custom, and obviously the mid-plane that carries the logic board. The SATA HD, DDR RAM, and ATA Optical drive are rather user servicable and use standard components.

This is for someone who doesn't want something as large as today's mini-towers, but doesn't need it light and portable.

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[jeephistorian]

Yep. I do carry one big heavy laptop around when I need one. Comes with doing heavy work (graphics).

Do you work for Apple? I build systems for clients that are made to be upgraded down the road because many non-profits (who my clients tend to be) can't pay for a brand new system every few years. When I think "desktop", I think about a computer that can be upgraded.

The new iMac is just a heavy laptop without an itegrated keyboard/mouse. There would seem to be a line beyond which it is no longer a desktop and it becomes a "portable desktop" as they have come to call the heavy hitter laptops.

Fritz
__________

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[big daddy kane]

uhh dont forget a source of power, without that you you'll end up looking like an iDiot.

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[BasilBrush]

The difference? A decent full travel keyboard, separate and therefore moveable in relation to the screen. A screen which is at a suitable height for viewing for full working days in front of it without damaging your health. But you already recognise that.
Add and remove parts? Standard HD, standard memory, both user upgradeable. Those are the common user upgrades. The only other common internal upgrade that isn't possible is changing a graphics card. Most other stuff is USB these days.
At one time people really used to care about having lots of slots in PCs to add internal upgrades. Those days are all but over.

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[Anonymous Coward]

These have got a fast 64-bit processor, a great OS and great screens. Any brand name laptop with a comparable screen resolution is definitely more expensive than these iMacs. This is the first time since they got a real operating system that I can see myself buying an Apple machine without feeling gouged.

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't undernstand the concept of an all-in-one, zero maintenance desktop?

I pity your clients.

Re:eh...so its a laptop?

[fr0dicus]

Although it should be pointed out that Apple laptop memory is also user upgradeable. Not very easy on the iBook, but simple on the Powerbooks.

Doh!

[bckspc]

Now we have to add *another* Slashdot icon.

Damn you Apple!

Bigger?

[Kaemaril]

So ... when's the 23" and 30" versions coming out, then? :)

Re:Bigger?

[Halliday]

Yes! A 23", High Def. (1920 X 1200) version, with an HDTV tuner (FireWire, or, even better, built in) will do the trick for me. :-)

Re:Bigger?

[Kaemaril]

I'd rather go for the 30" (2560-by-1600) version, myself. Then I can watch an obscenely high resolution TV programme AND keep working on a very large spreadsheet at the same time :)

If Apple could, they would

[2nd Post!]

You wanting a $999 G5 Cube only makes the problem of fans worse :)

Smaller enclosure == greater heat density
Faster processor == greater heat source
Lower price == less engineering resources

So you can either settle for a BIGGER case, a inferior processor, or a HIGHER price, to get what you want. A fanless design.

Think iPod

[Infonaut]

Apple is very strongly tying the new iMac to the iPod. The idea is to leverage the tremendous success of the iPod to show Wintel users that Apple also makes great personal computers.

While the original iMac, G4 Cube, and Luxo iMac were impressive feats of design, they also screamed out, "This is an Apple product. I'm different!"

The new iMac is elegant and well-designed, but it takes a much more subtle approach. It is less of an ad for Apple. I think the reason is that Apple wants to provide Wintel users with a computer that is like the iPod - elegant, highly useful, and understated.

Whether they'll say it or not, many corporate and small business customers have stayed away from Apple hardware for years because since the advent of the bondi blue iMac, Macs have been just too "different'. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable to go too far away from familiar design.

Apple is taking a very measured and cautious approach with business customers, and they probably will never come out and directly say it, but the new iPod-inspired design is likely intended less to appeal to traditional Mac users than it is to entice Switchers.

I think Apple will sell boatloads of the new iMac, and I'm very tempted to snag one of the 20" versions myself.

Re:Think iPod

[Onnimikki]

My wife is just hoping that they release the iMac G5 in the iPod mini colours... she loves her tangerine iMac and loves the way this one looks but wants her next iMac to be something other than white.

Re:Think iPod

[Anonymous Coward]

"My wife is just hoping that they release the iMac G5 in the iPod mini colours... she loves her tangerine iMac and loves the way this one looks but wants her next iMac to be something other than white."

And people wonder why macs/mac users aren't taken seriously... "Poor gas milage, lousy performance, and insane price tag? Who cares! This vehicle looks DIVINE!!"

Re:Think iPod

[Maserati]

I don't think I'll ever get the image of a pink G5 iMac out of my head.

It would make pr0n much too disturbing.

Re:Think iPod

[Algorithm wrangler]

... And it is working too. I've been a linux user for nearly 10 years now, but growing up I don't feel the same need for tinkering with my system anymore, but I still want a solid base system (I.E not windows). This thing made me drool the first time I saw it, and it still does. Price is about right, features is just what *I* need (probably modulo some extra RAM) and I will get what is basically a user friendly BSD system - great. So what if it lacks FW800 - I just need the USB connectivity for connecting my external MIDI adapters - and I actually don't mind paying for some software to add the little that the base OS X lacks in functionality. I am *very* close to go out and buy one. My only problem is which one.

I call troll on this one...

[CaptainPinko]

1. NeXt cube was a long time ago so I wouldn't say that particular situation is relevant anymore
2. How many home users actually transport files? Most of them just work on their own computer.
3. If they need transfer files to work more likely than not they'll just e-mail themselves.
4. If they want to transfer onto a physical medium the can burn a cdr/cd-rw with any of the iMacs and burn dvd-r/dvd-rw on the top two models. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if more computers had CD-ROM or better than have floppy drives.
5. Who actually ever uses floppy disks anymore? I just use them to boot my old P.O.S. boxes I hobby on
6. There is USB for your pendrive (or whatever you want to call it) which is probably the most popular current transportable medium and leagues better than floppy drives.
7. I don't recall there being any floppy drives on any of the SUN UltraSPARC boxes at my school's lab and they are at least several years old.
8. I just went to Dell.com>Small Buisness>Desktops>Dimension and it doesn't look like any (let alone most or all) come with a floppy drive either.
9. You can get a USB floppy drive so that you can read your floppies without ruinng the sexy design of the iMac for everyone else with the added bulk.

Re:I call troll on this one...

[jedrek]

I think you should call 'joke' - I don't remember seeing a floppy drive in a Mac since the original iMacs dropped. Hell, I haven't had a floppy drive working in any of my computers since '01.

Re:I call troll on this one...

[Anonymous Coward]

G5 iMac = Tablet PC on a stand.

Re:I call troll on this one...

[CaptainPinko]

I wish. No pen input no portability. If makes ever makes TabletPC I'll buy one immediately. However I doubt they ever will since they have to much pride to follow Microsoft's footsteps and the market demand for TabletPCs aren't huge either... though if they just added that feature to all the Powerbooks... hmm.

New slogan coming soon?

[stienman]

this achieves much of the same things [as the G4 iMac] in a different way and, we think, in a better way.

Ah. So instead of

Think Different(TM)

It's now

Think Better. We think...

-Adam

This is what Jobs...

[beaverfever]

Hasn't anyone noticed that the new iMac is exactly what Jobs didn't want the last iMac to be? iMac rev2 was originally going to be an all-in-the-LCD design, and Jobs poo-pooed it as being too predictable and not nearly innovative enough for an Apple product, and ordered a complete redesign.

How is the same rejected concept somehow innovative today?

Re:This is what Jobs...

[BigFil]

The reason why the all in one LCD design was rejected last time around was becuase it would have required a large bulge in the back of the LCD (i believe for the PS) thus not making it a flatscreen. The technologhy has progressed far enough now that the bulge can be taken away.

Re:This is what Jobs...

[ljavelin]

Excellent question.

The original problem with a flat-screen design was that it was just too bulky. The cooling system and power supply made it into a 6 inch thick unit - and to most people, 6 inches thick ain't a flatscreen.

I'd have to agree with Jobs - if you can't do it right, don't do it.

On the flipside, the new unit is nice. I just wish it'd come in more colors.

The speakers...!

[Atomic Frog]

Get left out too often.

Actually, Apple are not the first to try this trick. Downward firing stereo speakers were also on my old IBM Thinkpad 770X.

Let me tell you, they work amazingly well, especially considering they are tiny 2W laptop speakers.
Too bad IBM has taken a step backwards with the new "T" series. That is the crappiest audio I've ever heard on any laptop, and it isn't even stereo.

Search before posting

[SuperKendall]

Slashdot already had a story about the Airport Express being cracked - weeks ago. Here's a news article.

Or do a search for "Airport Express Linux" and you'll find the same thing.

Re:Search before posting

[Reverberant]

Slashdot already had a story about the Airport Express being cracked - weeks ago.

The parent is referring to Airport Extreme (specifically the client cards), not Airport Express, they're two different (but related) products.

That said, is the Airport software part of Darwin?

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[aftk2]

I had proposed something like this to maintain the sunflower design - which I believe to be one of the most unique electronic designs of the decade.

And you were rightly chastized on MacRumors.com...because of the idea that people should add water (?) to the base of their sunflower iMac is just bizarre.

Look, I can't say enough good things about the new iMac. Somehow, they managed to shoehorn a 1.8Ghz G5 in there, allow you to add up to 2gigs of RAM, give you a serial ATA hard drive and a 20 inch screen, while making it user-serviceable (for the most part) and hovering around 2 inches thick (for the 20inch model.) That is amazing.

Furthermore, when this thing starts selling like crazy (which it will, look at that price), there will be more wall mounts and sunflower-style arms that one might have believed possible in such a limited market. I imagine they will probably even get a better graphics card in there, at some point (Don't think so? ATI just announced a 128mb card, the Radeon 9200, for PCI PowerMacs...these are systems that stopped shipping 5 years ago.)

iLike it...

[MsGeek]

Since 1999, I have had a Blue-and-White G3 minitower. It's been lovely...no hardware problems yet. I upgraded it once, to add RAM and a bigger HD.

Since then, there have been no compelling reasons to get a newer Mac. The Blue-and-White was by-and-large a "future proof" machine, like it was advertised to my bosses at the Dot-Com I used to work at. The machine was loaned to me for telecommuting and when the company went bust I was able to buy it from them at fire-sale prices with part of my last paycheck.

The new iMac is the first Mac that has really screamed "UPGRADE TO ME!" in a while. My Blue-and-White is getting long in the tooth now, and even with 512MB RAM it struggles a little.

Do any of you realize just how hot this machine will be once the first 64-bit version of MacOS comes out???? No, I don't mean cooling problems, I mean hot as in bitchen. Agreed, they should have gone with a better Nvidia video chipset, (but I suspect the 5200 is a choice for power draw and heat as well as low price) and it should have come standard with more RAM, but dig: it's still pretty good.

And let me point out something else. Compare this all-in-one machine to the 32-bit Gateway Profile 4, which is no longer a production machine and is selling through Gateway's site as a refurb. Los Angeles Valley College has a computer lab full of these low-end machines, bought when they were still new.

Even as a refurbished machine, this is selling for $1,200 US. This is with Windows XP Home (not Pro, Home) and Works (not Office) pre-installed, a basic tray-load CD-ROM, Intel "Extreme Graphics" (anyone who's worked with it knows how laughable this term is) and 10/100 Ethernet.

Now look at the iMac G5's specs. The low-end machine is only $100 US more expensive new than the refurbed Gateway Profile 4. For this, you get a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive, Firewire to go with your USB, (and I don't know whether the Gateway POS has USB2 or USB 1.1 USB ports) and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT. Spend $200 more and you get a DVD-/+RW "Superdrive."

Yes, you pay a premium for Apple products. However, as you can see, the premium isn't very much at all. This is a 64-bit xNIX workstation we are talking about here. For only $300 more than a steaming cow-flop from Gateway. (I know from whence I speak about the Gateway: I have seen too many of those Profile 4 machines in the computer lab with "out of order" signs taped in front of them.) Apple builds things, by and large, to last. And yes, they design them to look pretty damn cool.

Maybe next June I can convince the remainders of my family to chip in on one of these as a grad present.

Re:iLike it...

[Xxanmorph]

The Profile 4 isn't being made, that's because the Profile 5 series is around now. That would be a more useful comparison. That doesn't change your point (which I agree with) since the specs are nearly identical, just some info.

Re:iLike it...

[mjs]

"... and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT"

A 4:3 screen has more surface area than a 16:10 screen of the same diagonal size. (Because it's closer to a square.) 4:3 is about 140 square inches; 16:10 is about 130.

Re:iLike it...

[MsGeek]

1.) As you pointed out, the specs are nearly identical. Also so are the prices if you look at them carefully. What's more, you cannot equip either a Profile 4 or Profile 5 with specs in any way approaching an iMac G5.

2.) The LAIR computer lab at Los Angeles Valley College is equipped with Profile 4 machines exclusively. No Profile 5s yet, although I suspect that if more of these machines go Tango Uniform that we might see a few in there in the not-too-distant future. When I was reading about the new iMac G5 I was sitting in the LAIR, in front of a Profile 4. The irony was immediate and unmistakeable.

3.) If LAVC wanted to be smart, instead of replacing defunct Profile 4s with Profile 5s, they should replace them with iMac G5s running MS VirtualPC instead. Then again, LAVC is not known for their IT acumen. After all, they run on Active Directory domains and have all email on Exchange 2000 servers. Needless to say, sending your Prof email (unless they use a webmail service) is pretty damn risky to say the least. Best to also print it out and hand it in to him/her as a backup measure.

Bluetooth module still not user installable?

[SenorCitizen]

I guess this means that Bluetooth will remain a BTO option. That's not good.

Especially as I'm planning to wait a couple of years to get one used - I'll have to eventually hunt for a specimen with a BTO Bluetooth module.

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[adzoox]

It is bizarre (but so are the trolls on Macrumors)

I never said my idea sounded kosher - but I think it a necessary step. The goal of this iMac wasn't to make something as thin as possible it was mainly done for weight.

I posted this in my journal topic about this:

I read a figure that the shipping weight difference between the 20" [new] iMac vs the 20"[old] iMac was like $16 in the total course of distribution.

So, honestly ... think about that - bluetooth modules cost Apple about the same. $15 to implement. Technically the weight alone vs the counterweight measures from the previous model could have gotten us an integrated bluetooth module. And then again, even this cost could be reduced if they didn't have to make a slot for a bluetooth module to go, just have it built in.

Reducing distribution costs has a lot more effect than just adding a step for the consumer - it can also yield cost savings that in turn make more features possible for the same buck.


I do agree with you, there will most likely be swing arms that will have a dome as a base and an optical drive (firewire) in that base.

That said, it STILL will be additional cost. We had a very ergonomic and versatile implementation that gave us these features before.

I think a lot of people have gotten me wrong - that I hate this design and that I'm ratting on Apple. From a design point - it just isn't as revolutionary. Getting 1 1/2 year old processors and a 2 1/2 year old technology wise video card isn't forward to me. The serail ATA and memory is being touted as a feat - the g5 REQUIRES THESE ELEMENTS. It was a mattr of putting them in or redesigning the core! [That makes them bonuses by nature not by design]

Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[argent]

The G4 seems to get more work done per clock than the G5, the big advantage to the G5 is that you can crank it to a higher speed and get more work done in absolute terms... but in a laptop, how much of the time are you running at full speed? Is that occasional "boost to 11" going to be worth the shorter battery life and hotter lap?

I do like the new design, it looks a lot more robust than the lamp. But I'd rather they still had a 1.25 MHz G4 option with a decent screen.

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[PaulMaximne]

Well, I use my powerbook as my main machine. All my development is done on this, so more power would be very nice. I know several people that have a big monitor and external keyboard. When they are home, they connect the monitor, keyboard and mouse, close the lid on the laptop and press a key on the keyboard. Voila, the powerbook uses the nice big monitor just fine and so instant desktop.

I'll take as much power as I can get in my laptop, as long as I don't also sacrifice portability and battery life beyond reason, for some value of reason.

Paul

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[argent]

OK, a laptop replacement... I can see that. But I'm not sure that changes anything.

See, I thought the G4 Powerbook already generated enough heat that running it with the lid closed was problematical. Would you actually be able to take advantage of a G5 powerbook, even docked on AC, or would it end up being slower except in bursts than the G4 because once you throttle it down to "cruising speed" it's down in the G4 range?

I suspect the 1.5 GHz G4 in the 17" Powerbook is at least competitive with the 1.6 GHz G5 in the 17" iMac, and uses less power. The realy fast G5s are unlikely to show up in laptops, given the heroic effort Apple put in to cooling in the latest G5 towers.

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Actually, a 1.6 G5 is a hell of a lot faster than a 1.5 G5. Probably equivalent to a 1.8 G4, I'd say.

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[argent]

Actually, a 1.6 G5 is a hell of a lot faster than a 1.5 [G4]

Do you have a reference for this? The benchmarks and tests that I've read don't support that conclusion, and the new dual-core 2 GHz G4s that Motorola's coming out with in October could make an embarassingly fast speed-boost for the Powerbooks. :)

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Well, for what it's worth I gave that figure based on apple's marketing. The dual-core g4s will definitely be fast, but how fast I truly do not know. I actually quite doubt you'll see dual-core G4 powerbooks because they'll have a huge speed difference with the imac. Imho, since apple chose to go g5 for the imac rather than wait for the dual-core g4s, I think they'll do the same with the pbooks. I don't think we'll see the new g5 powerbooks before this time next year (at least), and that is why I am a happy owner of a brand new, full priced 12'' pb :->

Re:Why do you want a G5 powerbook anyway?

[argent]

I gave that figure based on apple's marketing

The G5 isn't quite like the P4, but there's similarities in the relationship between the G5 and G4 and the P4 and PIII. In both cases you've got a faster CPU speed and a longer pipeline, so when get get a bubble in the pipeline... a mispredicted branche, a cache miss, whatever... it costs more.

Remember the old Apple "Megahertz Myth" ads? How the Power PC's shorter pipeline let it get more done per clock over the long run because it didn't have to wait as long for the pipeline to fill? Well, it's true. But now that Apple's pushing a chip with a longer pipeline (though not near so long as the Pentium) what are they going to say? :)

Also the dual-core G4 that's coming out, it's also going to have a better bus interface. That's the other advantage the G5 has... it's got a faster bus.

What I figure is, Apple's probably going to call the dual-core G4, or some descendant of it, the "Mobile G5". :) :)

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[Anonymous Coward]

I also think he pointed out on Macrumors that the Dual g5 2.5Ghz is water/liquid cooled ... but it could have been someone else.

I think the proposal in the journal entry is interesting and I don't think he's conveying it properly:

1) Get bottom disc and iMac in box with disc in a separate area of box

2) Disc has instructions to fill through hole with one cup of water.

3) Let sit for 15 minutes while gel forms in base

4) snap on to base of iMac for counterweight

I honestly see a huge benefit to his proposal as savings to Apple and therefore savings to the end user. I also see the cooling benefit he's described. It is bizarre though.

Hopes and Dreams

[ulfhednar]

It's a fair statement to say that the winpering weenies, who are currently commenting on the iMac G5, are having a problem because their vague, weeny dreams didn't come true. The fact that they really had no idea what they were wishing for in the first place is totally lost on them. They only thing they do know, for sure, is that they wanted to be "WOWED." And they weren't. Wah, wah, wah.

This is the easiest iMac to access

[mr_rangr]

Of the three styles of iMacs, this one is by *far* the easiest to work on. Loosening three screws lets you remove the rear panel for full access to the entire system. Here is a diagram of its insides.

Harman Kardon iSub Integration?

[calstraycat]

I've been using the H-K iSub subwoofer with my old G3 iMac for years now and I really like it. But, H-K stopped selling it separately when Apple took the speakers out of the iMac with the table lamp design.

I wonder if it would work with the new flat-panel design since they have put the speaker back into the design. I've searched around a bit for an answer, but haven't found any information.

I suppose I should just wait until it's in the stores and bring my iSub down and plug it in.

Re:Harman Kardon iSub Integration?

[tuxedobob]

I can say with 99% certainty that it will work. It has USB, it has the drivers, and it'll know what to do with it. I'm willing to bet the speakers aren't necessary for the iSub to work, though I may be wrong on that one. Anyway, good luck.

Every supervilions dream

[lounger540]

http://www.ubergeek.tv/article.php?pid=54 If you run linux on that G5 imac.

Agreed

[Azureflare]

That's a good idea... I may decide to switch next year once I'm heading to grad school as well. I've always admired Mac products (my first mac was one of those old ones that you had to have an external harddrive for and looked like a cardboard box, kinda) but it was awesome! I loved asteroids on that thing.

Ahem, anyways, I'll be saving up money furiously for a year. Who knows, by then maybe they will have something even spiffier out?

Right now I'm stuck with x86, but by then I will probably get a ppc.

Oh, and mandrake 10.1 is gonna be released for ppc too... Which rules. I'd love to test it out on a new iMac.

Re:Agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to tell you that having my powerbook, I've only once considered trying out a PPC linux distro on it, then shook my head when it occurred to me to ask "why?"

assignment for you hardware/materials types..

[pentalive]

Build a frame that holds the new imac via the mounting braket and also holds a USB keyboard and Touchpad. Also perhaps add a handle to carry it with.

For extra points, add a clear touch sensitive tablet screen, and build your frame so it can do the tablet/laptop twist.

PPC970FX 2.0GHz power draw

[Markonen]

I don't know what's the methodology behind those xlr8yourmac figures, but an Xserve G5 I administer gave me the following figures for PPC970FX 2.0GHz power draw: 12W at idle, 34W with a busyloop. (A busyloop obviously doesn't excercise all of the processor's subsystems, so it's conceivable that this is not a totally-maxed-out wattage figure.)

All in all, this compares pretty favourably with some of the P4 chips used in monster PC laptops today. So the real issue seems to be Apple's unwillingness to compromise on the PowerBooks' physical dimensions in order to accommodate the G5 chip.

How about a used/refurbished Mac?

[soldeed]

Power Max computers carries an extensive selection of quality used and Apple certified reconditioned Macs in all models! You can pick up used ibooks, imacs, G4 graphite towers, even the G4 cube, at bargain prices! Go now! Look at all the perfectly good used macs $500.00 and up!

Re:How about a used/refurbished Mac?

[Jack Auf]

Man, if you shop there you are getting ripped off. They list a used model identical to one of my iBooks for the same price I bought it for two years ago.

Try SmallDog instead. Much better prices, and they're nice people as well.

Don't know what you got till it's gone

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when iMac G4 came out and people thought it was "ugly" and despite Apple's extolling its screen mobility, plenty claimed that they didn't need it.

Now Apple removed the screen arm and lots of articles complained about that. Funny how we always complain about things until they disappear.

Almost perfect for a work desk

[ducomputergeek]

This is nearly perfect for an office enviroment. It has a small footprint and elegant "serious" look to it. I've had businesses look at macintosh iMac's before and say they look "Too playful" even though the machines did everything they needed without spending more on PowerMacs.

I've been using a powerbook because of its power and small profile for a couple years, but having a small profile and power of a G5 processor as well as price will make my next powerbook arguement much more difficult since I can get more at half the price.

Re:Ok.....

[tgibbs]

Also, people have been a little miffed by some design choices. Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing).

That can also be done wirelessly with Airport Express.

Pffff

[Udo Schmitz]

Wasn't the article more specific than that? To me it read like "most iMac G4 users", not "most people"...

Yeah, you know, I tried to make a joke. Next time I will attach a huge "FUNNY!" sign to my post ... And who reads those frickin' articles anyway?

+5 Insightful my ass.

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[MasonMcD]

As for the expanding cooling gel, if anyone could get the average consumer to purchase something with "dehydrated water" it would be Apple.

Video Card is an Nvidia 5200...

[NeedleSurfer]

For a computer this generation it is quite underpowered for the actual needs, don't expect to see big games on the Mac for a long time, there is not much motivation in producing games that will only run on the PowerMacs... there isn't much motivation for games on all mac anyway but this won't help much. I just got myself one big PC to get over my gaming needs, as much as my Mac does everything else (email, net, audio, budget and so on) it wasn't fit for gaming at all and I wasn't seeing decent gaming hardware coming on the Mac for a while, turns out I was right.

And BTW, being multiplatform is the best thing I could do to my computing experience...

Re:Video Card is an Nvidia 5200...

[Warlock7]

I'm sure that this is related to the heat dissipation capabilities of the machines new design. Most likely, if you put a better graphics card in the machine it would overheat the proc.

no excuse.

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Saying the Mac is too expensive is a load of hooey.

compare a machine to a Dell, just for fun. In fact, there's a website that does just that.

So let's look at the bottom of the barrel: a $650 computer.

Obviously, the eMac sucks at some things, but has benefits in others. And it's all of a dollar or two more expensive than the equivalent Dell, and lord knows an order of magnitude more attractive.

For what you get, Apple computers are competitively priced. You can argue little crappy pinheaded arguments over the details, but all things considered, they're not so bad.

From my experience, the SOFTWARE is what's expensive. Fuck - for the price of Photoshop and AVID DV Express, I can buy one helluva nice computer on EITHER platform.

The cost of hardware is comparatively incidental anymore.

Of course, Linux this and Linux that, Free here, Free There - been there, done that, and frankly spent WAY too much time dicking around with my computer to get a proper workflow going, and on top of it, most of the Linux software *just isn't up to snuff*. A lot of it has to do with patents (which is why GIMP can't do anything interesting in CMYK space, for example) and really lame ass UI design (which is why GIMP is such a pain in the arse to use, for example).

I still don't know of a decent NLE video system on Linux that does what FCP can do on the mac or AVID on Windows.

So - sure - save $200 on a Linux box - and GET NOTHING DONE.

At the same time: I FERVENTLY hope and pray that this will change - soon. I am NOT a bigot against Linus, by any stretch. At the same time, I won't get rid of my Mac - but I'll cheerfully stop using Windows as soon as Linux is easier and better and HAS THE SOFTWARE I NEED TO GET MY WORK DONE.

RS

Re:no excuse.

[Gannoc]

From my experience, the SOFTWARE is what's expensive.

Thats actually what a lot of geeks forget too. They loudly complain that PCs are cheaper then macs... but forget that they've stolen Windows, Outlook, etc.

Re:no excuse.

[iantri]

Saying the Mac is too expensive is a load of hooey. compare a machine to a Dell, just for fun. In fact, there's a website that does just that. So let's look at the bottom of the barrel: a $650 computer. Obviously, the eMac sucks at some things, but has benefits in others. And it's all of a dollar or two more expensive than the equivalent Dell, and lord knows an order of magnitude more attractive. For what you get, Apple computers are competitively priced. You can argue little crappy pinheaded arguments over the details, but all things considered, they're not so bad.

Well, clearly, you are extremely agitated over this, but dare I point out the obvious:

You can NOT significantly upgrade that eMac. Besides adding additional memory, you are screwed a few years from now. The cheap Dell is very upgradable (as with all PCs).

Re:no excuse.

[prockcore]

compare a machine to a Dell, just for fun.

There are those of us who say that Dell's are too expensive as well.

When Dell starts shipping AMD based machines, then it'd be a valid comparison.

Re:no excuse.

[jcsehak]

but I'll cheerfully stop using Windows as soon as Linux is easier and better and HAS THE SOFTWARE I NEED TO GET MY WORK DONE.

like some sort of blocker to keep you from posting long arguments on Slashdot? ;)

Re:no excuse.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are clearly quite agitated that someone would dare showing that an eMac gives better value for money than a cheap Dell, but you counter with the insightful

"You can NOT significantly upgrade that eMac. Besides adding additional memory, you are screwed a few years from now. The cheap Dell is very upgradable (as with all PCs)."

Adding memory to the eMac is very simple. If you cannot upgrade the harddisk on an eMac then consider yourself a wimp. A few years from now, you pass on the eMac to the next person who will get a very useful computer; if you try to upgrade a three year old Dell then you are just wasting your money.

No Free Software support!

[-ing AnonymousCoward]

Well, that wasn't about the encryption key used to transfer some music to some music devices using the Airport Extreme. The point is all about the hardware specs of the Airport Express wireless card builtin many great Apple products. The problem, you simply can't use them with a GNU/Linux OS as their specs ain't public yet, so they don't have a driver. That's also the same story with the f-ing ATI graphic cards in these Apple products.

In this interview, Apple VP isn't focusing on the software, but on the hardware. And that's the only reason why I'd buy a Mac. But for it to be useful for me, I need the specs of the Airport Extreme WIFI cards and of the f-ing ATI thing...

Re:No Free Software support!

[BasilBrush]

Maybe they can't see the point of having a Unix clone when Macs come with real Unix. ;-)

Memory Size

[Bullseye_blam]

Yeah, all of the models [even the most high-end model] come with 256 MB's, which is pretty lean. However, the maximum is supposedly 2 GB; this just means that Apple is trying to save a few dollars by making buyers upgrade from the base model.

-Bullseye

It's a keyboardless laptop on a stick

[Anonymous Coward]

I have more functionality with a laptop than the newly redesigned imac. It may be smaller and clean looking but I would rather have the other previous designs over this one and for a system that lacks some of the newer components and some features of the powermacs, powerbooks, and ibooks (yes I know it doesn't need alot to do the equivilant of a top end PC but it could have used more than what Apple supplied it with and still been better than it is now) it cost WAY too much.

In short, the price is not justifiable and the design has taken a step back rather than a step forward.

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[adzoox]

As I said, it's sounds crazy but yes - I DO think Apple could pull it off.

Apple could have also offered a pre counterweighted base that maybe had extra ports or a media reader built in. Possibly even an iPod dock. - They could have offered these as upgrades at an extra cost - but also to those didn't feel comfortable with my idea.

This bears repeating

[theolein]

I've found someone who will buy my old G4Powerbook 667MHz for $1200. If that isn't a good resale value, then I don't know what is.

No graphics replacement!

[littleghoti]

The GPU is on the motherboard (or as apple likes to call it, the main board assembly) Which isn't too much of a bummer, but is a bit.

Re:No graphics replacement!

[RestiffBard]

I did think of that too but, there are third party outfits out there that have managed miracles before. :)

Reminiscent of original iMac prototype

[Anonymous Coward]

I recall interviews about the original flat panel iMac. It was designed like this in a prototype. It has issues with cooling, with drives mounted vertically, etc. Then Jobs said "fuck this shit. Let the monitor be the monitor and the computer be the computer" and came up with the cute design. From http://www.macworld.com/2002/01/bc/07imac2/:

To incorporate a flat-panel monitor into the iMac required a completely new design for the desktop. Apple considered a design that would have featured an LCD with most of the components directly behind the monitor. But such a design wouldn't have allowed for a SuperDrive. And it would have defeated the purpose of a flat-panel display, by making the machine big and bulky.

"Rather than glom all these things together and ruin them all, why not let each thing be true to itself?" said Jobs, explaining the rationale behind the iMac's new design.

You get all these interviews with Jobs touting the design of the old iMac, and calling computers like the new iMac a piece of shit and a bad idea. And now he ships it. What's a person to think?

Bluetooth better served as a dongle

[Anonymous Coward]

For $45 you can get a tiny D-Link and plug it into your USB port.

Plus it's portable. Problem solved.

My Commodore 64 can be carried around the house...

[Dzimas]

And it doesn't need a fan. of course, the incredibly long serial cord connecting to the 1541 floppy drive is a bummer, but nothing a few rolls of duct tape couldn't fix.

Well, I do.

[Sunnan]

I prefer GNU/Linux to Mac OS X. Partly because it's free software, partly because I use ALSA, partly because upgrades are cheaper and easier (I use Debian, which is such a gift). I don't need to worry about my "Panther" becoming obsolete because "Tiger" comes out.

Re:Well, I do.

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd... I guess the fact that I'm still using Jaguar makes my computer obsolete. Funny how everything still works... I will admit to being enticed by 10.4 though. I'll probably just get it for "free" with my next computer purchase. My G3 iMac 600 is still chugging along. Video/Audio on the cheap. When I do make that purchase... I'll probably take the low hanging fruit, as it stays fresh much longer than you would think.

Re:Well, I do.

[Sunnan]

Use Jaguar all you want, that's your choice.

Personally, I'm not amused by being forced to use older versions for purely nontechnical reasons.

Re:Well, I do.

[Anonymous Coward]

Forced? No one is twisting my arm....

Re:Well, I do.

[Sunnan]

You can't just upgrade to Panther without coughing up cash. That's a non-technical obstacle. Maybe you're not annoyed by that, but I am, and that's one of the mayor reasons I'm not using Mac OS X right now.

When people say that they don't like being forced to pay $129 yearly, Apple apologists say "no one's twisting their arms to upgrade, they can stick with the old versions, they're fine!", and when people say that they don't like being forced to stick with the old versions, Apple apologists say "no one's twisting their arms to stick with the old stuff, they can cough up the dough!"

You just can't win with you people, can you?

And when I say that "You can use Apple's OS all you want, I'll stick with Debian" I get dissed for that, too!

Apple's decision to make Mac OS X their proprietary, profit-making product has drawbacks for consumers.

Re:Well, I do.

[Phroggy]

I, for one, respect your decision. I don't entirely understand it (you use ALSA? Huh? Isn't that a sound driver thingie? What can't you do in Mac OS X because of the lack of ALSA?) and I hope you're not avoiding the version of Mac OS X that comes pre-installed just because you're afraid of wanting to upgrade later - you can always use OSX now, and switch to Debian when you decide the version of OSX you have isn't good enough anymore. I would at least suggest dual-booting.

But being upset with Apple for charging for their product is silly. You do business with a company, you pay them money. They make a product you want, you can have it if you pay them, or you can choose to use something else instead. OSX is included, so you can use that at no additional cost. If you want to upgrade, you can either buy the new version of OSX from Apple, or use an alternative such as Debian, or not upgrade. As for me, I hate Linux on the desktop, and I plan on buying the upgrade from Apple because it will be worth the price to me. Or, I'll just stick with what I have; the new features in Tiger won't be available in Debian anyway and I love Mac OS X.

Re:Well, I do.

[Sunnan]

Switching to Mac OS X would either 1) require me to get used to a whole new set of programs, or 2) do massive porting work, especially with the music programs that use ALSA, or other programs that use linux-specific subsystems. I know I can get Sodipodi, Gimp, Emacs etc for Mac OS X, but is it worth the hassle?

And then, I'd have to switch back. But that is just a technical/personal reason; that's not the big issue here. It's that Mac OS X isn't free, open source software.

But being upset with Apple for charging for their product is silly.

Well, it's the exact opposite of what benefits me as a consumer; becoming reliant on a single vendor, not getting all the source code, the cost...

Mac OS X does have some advantages but I was arguing against the original poster who seemed to imply that there was no reason at all to use another unix than Apple's, and I think there is.

The title should read...

[kirk26]

The title should read: "Apple VP defends iMac G5 Hardware Design"

Mac OS X ~= WinXP Pro

[bill_mcgonigle]

This is with Windows XP Home

Don't forget, Mac OS X includes most of the features that differentiate Windows XP Pro from Home - IPSec, Domain Support, Webserver, Multi-language support, SNMP, Simple TCP services, network monitor, etc.

This is important to anyone who does any telecommuting which is probably a significant subset of the iMac market (vs. eMac market).

So go ahead and add in XP Pro when you're doing the price comparison - Mac OS X has more value than XP Home.

Re:Mac OS X ~= WinXP Pro

[Halliday]

I most certainly agree: All Windoze machines I have run Windows NT or XP Professional. Never XP Home: It's simply missing too many features. (Especially when one considers that even Microsoft admits that XP Home doesn't fully support preemptive multitasking and protected memory!)

Re:90 days

[Anonymous Coward]

What overheating are you talking about? Liar.

Think

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac users aren't taken seriously because his wife wants it to be available in colours?
Are you driving a model T?
"I'm sorry sir, the auto you are interested in only comes in black. If we provided another color, people might think you're shallow."

edited for self control... : )

ot

[Anonymous Coward]

I miss my kitty... : (
Give kitty what she wants!

Very Smart Design

[Anonymous Coward]

"The old Macs had this design going way back. My Mac Plus had ventillation in the hand hole on the top, and no fan." - bob beta

I first saw the new iMac and was instantly reminded of the face of the original, modernized.

whining

[Anonymous Coward]

I upgraded mine years ago to a "huge" 80 gig (also faster) ... really wish I had waited a year for the 120's.

Irony

[Saltation]

Or, he may have intended an ironic dig at Americans who type 'baited breath.'

obligatory: It's all about the fricken' sharks

[indiechild]

Don't forget the compact shark tank. For all your "sharks-with-fricken'-laser-beams-attached-to-thei r-heads" needs.

probably becausep

[RMH101]

people who buy servers aren't willing to pay twice the price for a pretty white case and an apple logo, i'd imagine.

Re:probably becausep

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? So, you haven't priced the Apple XServe or IBM's JServers.
You're just wasting our time.

rephrase:

[RMH101]

an average slashdot reader's PC has multiple hard drives, some running at 10K RPM.

Re:rephrase:

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's not a rephrase, that's a correction.

Just to rephrase you.

Oh wait. Now I confused myself.

Wow!

[Ohreally_factor]

I didn't realize that there was an iBook with a 17" screen. How cool!

Because...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm used to it?

Also I just like linux, and I don't have to pay for upgrades to the OS.

My bad...

[SuperKendall]

I apologize for misreading that, I totally agree with you that they should really release the specs for that.

You just can't win with you people, can you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think it's because we are all individuals with different wants and needs...
I just happen to be a tight ass who likes my old apple, and who really wasn't trying to diss you. Sorry. I would just like people to know, life doesn't end when a new version comes out. There really is no reason to upgrade until a feature shows up that you *must* have.
Yes, when 10.4 shows up, I would have to pay to upgrade, or get it with a new machine (which I'm looking forward to), but the life of my machine makes me feel it's worthwhile. How many machines have you purchased since '99? Just curious.

Re:You just can't win with you people, can you?

[Sunnan]

Alright, sorry if I overreacted.

How many machines have you purchased since '99?

Two; both iBooks - the second because the first one got the famous logic board error; and I'm still waiting for Apple to fix it. (They said they'd send me a box, but it never showed up. I'll call 'em right now, thanks for reminding me.)

JObS + WoznIAK = JOSWIAK

[didlybom]

Joswiak is the spiritual son of the two Steves...

Re:Design is a regression, but a progression in co

[_fuzz_]

What a lot of people don't understand about the new unit is that with the stand - this unit actually takes up a little more depth than the eMac and carries NO side to side rotation - like the swingarm from the previous design did. If you add in this element - it actually takes up 40% more deskspace.

The new iMac takes up more deskspace than the eMac? The 17" iMac is 6.8" deep while the eMac is 17.1" deep. And as for rotation, the article clearly states that the whole base is designed to move. It's only 18.5 lbs. and there are no rubber feet, so it should turn pretty easily.

I have a G4 iMac and I love the swingarm. I think the whole design is great and was kind of disappointed in the G5 iMac. But then I got to thinking about how I actually use the swingarm and realized that the new design would work just fine for me.

Tablet PC, anyone?

[Gordon Bennett]

Were I just wrapped up in Apple World, I would miss noticing the Tablet PC, which is basically a more versatile (if slower, CPU-wise) concept than the G5 iMac.
Nice to see Apple fitting a G5 into a smaller form factor though, which implies imminent laptop use, although portable PC's now have leapfrogged any current and possible future Apple laptops in terms of speed with battery life.

Poor form.

[Anonymous Coward]

gtfo. ynf.

get the fuck out
you're not funny

You don't have many discussions, do you? I wouldn't want to converse with you when you're getting all whiny and sarcastic.

If you don't learn to read the article you will suffer. Suffer!

You're not fooling anyone

[Milton Waddams]

Why do people constantly post "Productivity this, productivity that" comments on SLASH-FUCKING-DOT? Stop ranting on a geek forums site and do some fucking work! :p

that's funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

You failed to mention that the machine you link to is an emachine... a thin skinned plastic job who's keys will fly about the room once you begin typing at a steady rate. External keyboard necessary, seriously. As for an AMD 3000+ being faster than a 1.8 64 g5 (finding flame suit).... I think that's up to debate and personal preference. That is a great price though, and just goes to show that the iMac is a pretty good deal, with a really beautiful display.

That's because...

[LookSharp]

... a fool and his money are soon parted.

You're getting a great deal. A PowerBook G4 667 is still a nice machine, but it ain't worth no 1200 bucks.