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New Hominid Species Unearthed in Indonesia
Radical Rad writes "ABC News is reporting that anthropologists have found the skeletal remains of seven hobbit sized hominids. The population may have been wiped out by a volcanic activity 12000 years ago or according to local legend may have lived up until the 1500's living on in caves and eating food the villagers would leave out for them. Also found were bones of giant lizards and miniature elephants. CBS
also has the story." National Geographic and the BBC have good stories.
The current explanation for these "hobbits" is they somehow got to this 31-square-mile island, and because of the habitat/food source limition, they grew smaller so that they cooled off more easily, and used less energy.
However, if they were smart enough to find a way to this island, couldn't they just do another island-hoping to a bigger island like Sumantra, or even Australia?
The article also mentioned "many anthropologists have argued that in recent years, scientists have been adding too many new species to the human evolutionary tree. They say scientists have become too quick to call what may simply be an unusual individual a member of a whole new species."
Maybe these tiny people have some kind of sickness (or just look tiny), and were therefore exiled from the main(is)land?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
clearly there was evolutionary pressure to maintain the same size for all species on the island: giant lizards, pygmy elephants, and small humans.
I dig how they say "Hobbit sized" to capitailize on LOTR's popularity. In '83 they would have said "Ewok sized".
Sweet informative mod.
1. Is there sufficient DNA material at any of the dig sites to allow us to clone a hobbit?
2. Would they make good slaves?
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Tolkein fans unite! We've found Frodo and friends!
...
But seriously, Slashdot is the only place you would expect to hear "hobbit-sized"...
Hmmm sounds like our leg is getting pulled again...
-------- Docrobot
everyone knows the world was created 6000 years ago.
jeez.
Guess Frodo, Bilbo and the remaining elves made a wrong turn on the way to the Grey Havens.
CC Licensed Serialized Story and Podcast: Ingenioustries
that'll teach those hobbits to burrough in my backyard
Was a strange ring around it's neck, the scientist that found it was last quoted as saying "My Precious" over and over again
... is not fiction after all!!! :)
"You mortals are so obtuse." -Q
Their Frodo should never have tossed the ring into Mount Doom until they were further away.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Who knew the Shire was in Indonesia!?!? I thought it was in Brittain :)
William George
How can anything be hobbit sized? A hobbit is a fictional creature; it has never existed. Now a troll...
... did they happen to find any rings nearby? One ring, in particular?
If they find any with a ring on their finger, they need to find that volcano and toss the ring in pronto.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
I find it interesting that they could have possibly intereacted with modern humans and their "species" could have overlapped with ours, but I agree with the scientist arguing over naming a new species. Let's rule out any major speculation before we go naming new evolutionary tree branches.
-- johntracy.com, because everybody else is wrong.
err...he lived 18,000 yrs ago...
they just found some movie set litter from Peter Jackson and crew.
I think I know where this discussion is going.
GW Bush has declared a state of EMERGENCY over the finding of WMD in the 12,000 year old ash layer. While he is not sure of the threat level these 'hobbits' present, he has ordered pre-emptive military action to protect America.
Those nasty hominidses. We hates them!
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
the size of fictional beings.
I don't know, looks like dwarfs to me. I mean "Little People."
Mabye they are only a few feet away from finding the leader of the lolly pop gang!
Dude, that's not cool to make fun of Indonesians, man. It's not their fault they're vertically challenged. :)
When you have some species like Canine's that range in size from Mastif to Chihuahua
Among the midget hominid remains in Indonesia, a gold ring was also discovered.
"Antropologists are perplexed as to how a ring found it's way into the hands of a species lacking basic metallurgy or fire. One scientist was quoted as saying 'The precious, er I mean artifact, is a remarkable lovely find. So bright, so beautiful...' He was later heard to remark 'mine, mine, get away!! Filthy little grad students!!'"
Peter Jackson was not available for comment.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
Obviously the Hobbits didn't finish off Mt. Doom as well as they thought they did.
-R
The Tropi...Was It Human?...Animal?...Or The Living Descendant Of The Missing Link!
should be "Homo Frodo"
Is Snow White's house anywhere nearby?
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
Evolutionary Tree Gets Bushier
Well, I suppose.... since they didn't have brazilian waxes back then...
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
I have seen functioning humans with heads the size of a grapefruit.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Well I bet It may be Snow Whites little buddies..
Okay, maybe I'm all alone on this...
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
Agent Elrond?
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
"Homo Erectus"? "Hobbits and Volcano"? Komodo dragon and "dwarf elephant" (sounds like a South Park episode!)
Sometimes I just can't begin to even believe this stuff, even if it is mirrored on all the "credible" sites.
Pttttttttt.....
I knew frodo didn't survive that spider's web ;)
Snow White brought in for questioning related to 7 suspicious deaths. Details at 11.
eskwayrd = m^2c^4
Someone was always after their Lucky Charms.
Proverbs 21:19
neocons.
Sure it sounds good, but it will probably just turn into another 'Frankenfish' or -- dare i say it -- Cube 2: Hyperwhat?.
RTFA
How can these researchers say for certain that these remains are of anything other than humans?
The skulls are not similar to modern humans, but are similar to Homo Erectus, from which these creatures are thought to descend.
It is more probable that these remains represent a small group of homo sapiens that had genetic development problems, or some other kind of ailment.
See above. It is often debatable whether or not unique features (in this case size) represent a continum or a distinct species. It is not an exact science, and we may never know for sure. However, there is no other example of an adult human being so small.
Pygmies exist in Africa today, but are not considered a new species.
Pygmies are considerbly taller then these "hobbits". Also Pygmies are modern humans, the "hobbits" were not.
This report is more about research scientists getting more grant money than actually using the scientific method.
The findings are being reported in Nature, which has exceedingly high standards. There is absolutely no reason to make such accusations.
I've been wanting a 3ft tall hobbit wife with limited brain capacity...
Mod points are pointless when you browse at -1.
Well, now that hobbits have been found can wizards, orcs, and elves be far behind? I just prey they don't find a frozen cave troll and decide to thaw him out...
Maybe their God had five fingers...
IGB: More fun than eating oatmeal!
nm
http://cyborgdemocracy.net/images/ArmyOfOneRing.jp g
Just let me know when they find Mark Twain's Curious Republic of Gondour
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
More like .33 Volkswagon Bugs in length.
There's a comprehensive Nature Special on it. If you're a subscriber you can also download the original articles.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
DID THEY FIND MY PRECIOUS???
Presumably they have other features besides size that differentiate them from Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Pygmies are recognizibly H. sapiens. Note the article talks about the differences in the teeth, leg and skull shape from H. sapiens and Homo Erectus. If pygmies had the leg structure of apes and the skull features of H. erectus and Australopithecus, you can bet they'd be considered another species. They don't, so they aren't.
And mod this down.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
once again they got you to think everything is based in europe or north america. it's like when you see Jesus as being blonde with blue eyes
yes, i realize i used the term "western culture".
I think it looks more like evidence of Homo OompaLoompus
I've heard that it is theorized that many myths and legends are based somewhat on fact. Could this be the discovery of the wee folk that are in legends through out the world?
We had a screensaver about this species, there was this guy alone on a island...and he was very small!
-phixxr
ungggghhhh
How do we know they weren't midget outcasts and banished to the Island? Perhaps Madmartigan got fed up with the racism from Willow and the little people towards the Daikini's.
Squidward: "Spongebob, If I had a dollar for every brain you don't have, I'd have 1 dollar."
What if they were just exiled midgets, or midgets that decided to dwell together and raise families?
What about the Giant Rats of Sumatra?
They have to eat all the time or their tusks will grow into their brains!
Firesign Theater rules!
A hungry man will tell you anything if you give him a cookie.
Hobbits?! And from the Shire by the looks
of them...
I would much rather find Arwen than an army of hobbits.
Although, it's not technically accurate...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Solid scientific evidence of the authority of the The Silmarillion. But don't expect it to be taught in TODAY'S public schools.
If they can determine the size differential between the wee little people and the Komodo dragons, maybe we can get a better understanding of how difficult it was for the medieval knights to slay them. Kinda makes you teary eyed doesn't it?
Thanks, Beannie
This is what Snow White did to the dwarves??
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
... in Japan!
Oompa loompa doompety doo ...
I've got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you're not greedy, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Doompety do
These were the ancestors of Willy Wonka's Oompa-Loompas, not Hobbits. And those other things weren't pygmy elephants, but Whangdoodles, beasts that fed on Oompa-Loompas (often preferring to eat 10 for breakfast).
...but you have no way of knowing that it wasn't.
Not unless you're, you know, 6000 years old, which I somehow doubt.
Science is not as cut and dried as a lot of people would have you believe.
If you weren't around at the beginning then you have no business questioning He who was.
Here is their missing link. Dr. Shrinker at work again back then, no doubt.
they found yeti-like humanoids in the indonesian mountains already. Basically they are like gorillas with more hair. The sightings of the yeti and these hobbit-like creatures sound almost the same, although the reports on the yeti say they are taller than a hobbit, but size distortion from the snow (no landmarks to judge actual size from a range) could have people think the yeti was taller. Which now the question to ponder is if it was necessary for the hobbits to travel over the misty mountains instead of going through isengard.
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
I'm surprised that the article didn't mention Menehune which are "little gods" that frequent Hawaiian and Polynesian folklore and mythology. When the settlers of the Pacific Islands were traveling around settling different islands thousands of years ago, they learned from little natives that seems gifted in surviving on the islands.
One of them became a Governor and ran for President!
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
I'm more excited by the idea of miniature elephants. My friend in college always talked about how she wanted to someday have a little miniature elephant as a pet. Something dog-sized, like a "Pot-Bellied Elephant".
I too thought that would be great. I wonder if there is any DNA left over for them to be cloned. Those could sell better than the current designer pets like the labradoodle.
Think about it! Small, pettable, and it has a trunk and makes that nifty elephant noise and it trundles about your house. Amazing.
"The idea of how they got there is still very much in the air."
They could FLY!?
Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
I believe the politically correct term is RUS.
(S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))
Hawai'i is full of stories about the "Menehune", the "little people" who lived in the islands before Polynesians arrived and took over. I have seen some of the walls they say were built by the Menehune, and they are different from the walls built by Polynesians and Europeans (and other "globals" following European arrival). The walls are fitted together more closely, with a technique that more resembles the Egyptian and Mayan walls that I've seen, though much smaller in scale. Perhaps we don't have the first global culture?
--
make install -not war
It's sad enough posting so "a matter a fact" about an article that you obviously didn't read.. but the fact that this got modded insightful is silly. The fact that an "expert" would have even the slightest difficulty placing this in the homo species makes it obviously different than african pygmies.
7 of them in caves? Hmm, perhaps working?
try sleepy, bashful, dopey, sneezy...
Keep digging, you'll pull up a hot brunette.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
I checked my calendar and nope...it is the middle of October. This is pretty cool.
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
Evidence on elves still pending...
The original post says living on in caves and eating food the villagers would leave out for them.
This sounds more like Boggies to me. Ref. Bored of the Rings.
This could prove the 3 step to profit buisness model Wrong!!
tm
Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
Not to state the obvious, or anything, but you have no way of knowing that.
Theeeere's my rejected submission...
More information on these hobbit-sized wonders can be found at Scientific American which runs a Q&A with Dr. Brown. As expected, it's a bit more in-depth than "Hobbits Found!"
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
So if we follow the map (assuming sea level has risen since Middle Earth days), mountain chain, south to Rohan, East, that would put Mordor right ... about ... Here.
I thought Rohan/Gondor west of Ithilien river looked a lot like Australia. Now we know.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Ja!
--
Hanz and Franz
Secrets which NORML is fighting to have unsuppressed. ;)
Everything is is "big game" when you're 3 feet tall. The elephants are at least on scale with their tiny stature, but they got a raw deal on the giant rat/lizard setup.
one better than mcleodeight
A little more detail on the tools and other aspects.
gewg_
So how big were their feet?
it always concerns me that paleontologists and anthropologists are always so excited over finding *one* specimen. and usually just a partial one at that.
i'm no paleontologist (and i don't play one on tv, either) so i don't know exactly how well you can really extrapolate a whole species' traits from one specimen. do you know, for instance, that it's genetically "normal" for its species? was it typical of the nutritional, physical, and in the case of hominids, social environment?
for instance, what would be the inference if a future archaeologist found the skeletal remains of the following: someone born with Down Syndrome, someone with Marfan Syndrome, and someone with one of the 522 different types of dwarfism - skeletons or models of which can typically be found in better natural history and science museums around the world.
where, for instance, are Lucy's kin? and she's the basis for whole shelves of books on human evolution.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
they aren't really tiny - they are just very far away.
Fascinating article though. I can't wait to read more about it, the whole facial reconstruction thing and all.
Speaking of which, considering this evidence of hominids with brains so small, maybe Bush is, in fact, Human after all.
Vote for Kerry... please.
You are about to give someone a piece of your mind, something which you can ill afford...
Hey there, kid. I've got something for you.
You know how life kinda sucks? And it's hard and stuff? Well, there's this guy, named Jesus, or Mohammad, or Abraham or something, and all you have to do to receive his love is to give me 10% of everything you make. He'll make your life worth living. And he'll even bless you with economic prosperity. I promise. And after you die, he'll let you live forever!
Trust me. I'm holy! Unless you're 6,000 years old, you can't question my motives!
In "A Short History of Nearly Everything" Bill Bryson points out that the ENTIRE collection of human fossils pre-dating modern humans would fit into the bed of a small pick-up with room to spare. There is simply not enough evidence to ever make such wide sweeping assumptions. It is good to hear that some more bones have been added to that small pile and the picture is getting clearer.
Why doesn't anything interesting happen when I have mod points?
They are the subhuman Tchoo-Tchoos. The small elephants were Chaugnar Faghn's servants.
Ok, I had to take that out of my system.
UgaBuga!
FINALLY, they found the exact place where midget aliens cross-bred with humans...
While I haven't seen a map, where Flores exactly is, it's was struck by a tsunami in the early 90's and it wouldn't be beyond the possibility a typhoon wiped them out. Also possible on such a small island that disease or inbreeding finished them off.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
They found Pygmy Elephants!! Any Three-Assed-Monkeys yet?
In africa, you have some of the tallest tribes in the world in close proximity to some of the shortest. The difference in their environments is not the heat -- the heat is constant -- but rather the humidity. In areas where the humidity is high, being larger does you no good. Sweat won't evaporate so the extra surface area isn't useful.
In areas where the humidity is lower, being taller is a great way to help get rid of excess heat.
However that may not be what's going on on this island at all.
The other lifeforms are textbook examples of foster's rule in action. Foster's rule is the maxim that states that creatures isolated on a small island will experiece dramatic changes in size (or die, adapt or die).
So, for instance, the pygmy elephants got smaller than the elephants they started as because there simply wouldn't have been enough vegatation on the island to support them otherwise. There was EXTREME selective pressure to get smaller, so it happened fast.
Meanwhile, because nothing was around to eat these pygmy elephants, those komodo dragons that were born larger than the others were significantly more fit becuase they might be able to exploit the elephants as a food source (which they did -- they sustained themselves on the elephants until they went extinct, at which time humans brought deer to the islands thus providing them with a new food source).
One creature had selective pressure to get bigger, another to get smaller. In *general*, Foster's rule is that things will get smaller. But occasionally (such as in the example above), the rule can work in reverse.
hate to self-reply, but i read the BBC coverage, and it indicated that there was only one specimen. the ABC news coverage says there's seven - which i originally thought to be a lame snow white joke by the poster.
my bad.
but still, my question is a valid one - how much can we make from a sample size of one specimen (i.e. Lucy)?
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
and that creature is such a homo.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
They wouldn't happen to be named Doc, Dopey, Sleepy, Grumpy, Sneezy, Happy, & Bashful, would they?
Is it April again already?
- Kevin
The less confident you are, the more serious you have to act.
It is more probable that these remains represent a small group of homo sapiens that had genetic development problems, or some other kind of ailment.
The scientists found 7 skeletons, all hobbit sized, with ages from 95,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago. Nobody found any skeletons from after when a volcano on the island blew up 12,000 years ago. (How long until somebody makes jokes about Mt. Doom?)
So, we have 7 hominid skeletons similar to each other, but very unlike all other hominid skeletons. Their basic body form remains the same for at least 83,000 years. These do not appear to be human remains.
Modern human skeletons don't show up on the island until 11,000 years ago. Considering that moderns humans crossed the Wallace Line to Australia over 40,000 years ago, and also settled on some Pacific islands 30,000 years ago, this opens the question: "Why don't we see human remains on this particular island before 11,000 years ago?"
Please mod parent post down.
The Omphalos Argument is wrong. The Earth was created about 5,999 years ago, but was created with the simultaneous dual appearances of being billions of years old, and being 6,000 years old.
This immediatly reminded me of the Dropa and the Han from the Bayan Kara-Ula regin near Tibet. Heres a Picture of them. Look around on the web and you can find more information. They were small people. "The Bayan Kara Ula, or Bayan Har Shan, area of China is where the source of Yangtze River is located and where the Mekong River turns south toward Vietnam. It's said to be very isolated and the people there still live in rather primitive conditions, although this is changing very quickly. In January of 1938, a Chinese archaeologist named Professor Chu Pu Tei led a rather routine expedition into these mountains. However, what they discovered in a group of caves shunned by the superstitious local natives was far from routine. In the caves, the expedition discovered a series of graves lined up in rows. On the walls of the caves there were stick-figure drawings of men with elongated heads and representations of the sun, moon, and stars. When they excavated the graves, the archaeologists found skeletons of less than four feet in length with abnormally large skulls." link
Your Momma's so fat she makes emacs look like nano!
Which retard thought comparing this with an imaginary object would be regarded as anything other than plain stupid?
"Grunka Lunka Dunkity Doo, we've got a friendly warning for you. Grunka Lunka Dunkity Dasis, the secret of Slurm's on a need-to-know basis."
"Grunka Lunka Dunkity Dingredient, you should not ask about the secret ingredient."
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
Uh...no. Everyone knows that after Mt. Doom erupted hobbits continued to exist for many generations.
Doesn't it strike you as just appropriate that there are cultural references to small people eveywhere? Hobbits, yes, but nibelungs (actually, LOTR is heavily based on The Ring of the Nibelungs. Worth listening the four-opera cycle, it's an amazingly complex ploy in a geek-friendly way), dwarves, elves, gnomes, Yoda, etc?
See above. It is often debatable whether or not unique features (in this case size) represent a continum or a distinct species. It is not an exact science, and we may never know for sure. However, there is no other example of an adult human being so small.
Bullshit. Tom Thumb was undeniably human and only grew to approx 40 inches, which is almost exactly the height they are talking about. It's not unthinkable that a general predisposition coupled with inbreeding could have produced a family of little people this size.
If you say that PT Barnum exagerated, look up the world record for height. You'll find the people fighting for the title are comfortably under a meter. According to Guiness, the world record is a 36 year old person who stood a scant 57 cm.
Never confuse volume with power.
This is probably the Piltdown Man of the 21st Century.
The most interesting thing about these are that the natives of the island have many legends about people exactly fitting this description (three feet tall and humanoid) that are extremely detailed. The legends even include that these 'hobbits' had languages of their own.
First, this would be the first case of modern humans having even psuedo-recorded contact with another intelligent species.
Second, this rips back open the possibility of our faerie tales being more true than most of us would have expected.
"Keep digging, you'll pull up a hot brunette."
If you still think she's still hot after 12,000 years of being dead in a cave, I am scared.
>How can these researchers say for certain that these remains are of anything other than humans?
I assume that by "human" you mean the species Homo sapiens. The shape of the skull, dentition, the shape of the tibia, all point to it not being H. sapiens. In fact, there is some debate over whether it belongs in the genus Homo at all.>It is more probable that these remains represent a small group of homo sapiens that had genetic development problems, or some other kind of ailment.
No, it is not. This would require an even greater speciation event than the idea that they are descended from H. erectus through isolation and time. To state that it is more probable that they are simply mutant H. sapiens shows both your ignorance of biology and your creationist indoctrination.>Pygmies exist in Africa today, but are not considered a new species.
That's because they aren't a new species. Height is not the issue here. Try to learn just a little bit of comparative hominid anatomy before making yourself look a fool.>This report is more about research scientists getting more grant money than actually using the scientific method.
This is just standard creationist bullshit. You are impugning the reputation of scientific professionals you have never met on the basis of absolutely ZERO evidence. The implication of your statement is that they have knowingly falsified data to obtain money. Please immediately post a link to any kind to support for your slander or retract it. You are simply repeating the creationist lies you have been taught. Read some actual science texts about hominid evolution, comparative anatomy, and paleoanthropology.I thought about modding this idiot with another Troll point, but what's the point of having karma if you can't burn some of it flaming an obvious moron.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
So they were pets, huh?
--- Ban humanity.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Balrog bones to follow.
Short? Long arms? Brain the size of a chimpanzee? Put it together now...
hi
Oh brother, don't RTFA me...of course I read the fucking article. I read all about the spurrious claims about a whole people group based on finding one set of remains.
"The skulls are not similar to Homo Erectus,from which these creatures are thought to descend"
My question is, howso? They're smaller than ours??? From my own observation of the pic in the story, the single skull that was found looked very human, only smaller.
"See above. It is often debatable whether or not unique features (in this case size) represent a continum or a distinct species. It is not an exact science, and we may never know for sure. However, there is no other example of an adult human being so small."
So it's debatable that this could be a new species....hmm...I'll leave that alone. So what if this is a small specimen. I can think of many human beings that are small, they are called children.
"Pygmies are considerbly taller then these "hobbits". Also Pygmies are modern humans, the "hobbits" were not."
You say that these 'hobbits' were not human and just end it. What proof do you have that these specimines are not human? Where's the incontrivertible evidence? Plus, just because these humans are smaller than Pygmies, doesn't mean that they aren't still human.
"The findings are being reported in Nature, which has exceedingly high standards. There is absolutely no reason to make such accusations."
wow, I didn't realize what a huge journalistic paragon the good folks at 'Nature' have been building. In fact, the editors and contributors of Nature are the same entreprenurial researchers who I am rightly accusing of making an illogical leap in their findings to get support for their research projects.
Yes, I can make these accusations because that's what scientists do, be skeptical. I think that this research is based on bullshit science and I want someone to show me how I'm wrong.
Thank you Dave Raggett
We now have the remains of at least seven hobbit-sized individuals at the cave site
All they need now is to find a woman in a glass coffin. Maybe prince charming didn't feel like making a housecall to Indonesia?
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
"You are simply repeating the creationist lies you have been taught."
I guess I'm a creationist now, I'm glad someone had the decency to tell me.
I think you're the one with the chip on your shoulder, buddy. Maybe you are afraid to admit that evolutionary science is full of holes, and you are using poor creationists (like me!) to vent your frustration.
I did not say anything about being a creationist, and I have heard MANY people creationist and not criticize researchers for their self-promoting illogical leaps of faith. Maybe you're one of them.
Thank you Dave Raggett
This would be sweet! Especially since pig & elephant DNA just won't splice...
Of course they disapeared. Mount doom exploded in the third age of men duh!
NO SIG
Curious that there were seven found, and they chose to call them hobbits instead of dwarves, maybe they're consider proportions rather than simply height. Nothing new really. Third incarnation of Vishnu was the dwarf Vaamana, and there's many accounts of smaller stature humanoids around the world.
Scientia et Potentia
Did anybody else stop and think: maybe children?, or midgets? or do we take for granted that the scientific equipment accurately pegged them as 30-year-olds or whatever from 18,000 years ago?
From ABC article: so the 18,000-year-old skeleton cannot be some kind of 'freak'
Man, don't be so hard on them. I know we all get mad at kids once in a while but that's just harsh.
And might the "miniature elephants" be baby elephants?
Note: Komodo dragons today are "giant lizards", so what has changed there?
The article just feels really weird, like they might not be considering the obvious, in favour of some great discovery instead. I mean, it sounds like a ploy to make the skeletons seem like they're from a different evolutionary species or something.
I for one bow to our new hobbit overlords...
Wait, before modding me down, give me one last chance:
Hi Ho, Hi Ho...
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
Obviously these were the eastern people that the Blue Wizards were sent to.
I thought oliphaunts were supposed to be huge?!
Constitutionally Correct
The description of the hobbits (brain case 1/3 the size of humans, similar to chimps; thick brow ridge; no chin; different proportions of limbs) makes it certain that it's another species, descended in a branch somehow parallel to homo sapiens. They have found many adult specimens (not children). What I'm wondering is, why would one react so negatively to this rather unavoidable conclusion? It's a really fascinating, exciting find!
Never eat anything bigger than your head.
Joey: So if homosapiens were in fact homosapiens.. is that why they're extinct?
Ross: Homosapiens are people!
Joey: Hey! I'm not judging!
Oliphants, you uneducated brute!
"So what if this is a small specimen. I can think of many human beings that are small, they are called children." You must have missed the part in the article where they said it was an 30 year old adult. So if a this is a child, that means his bones don't grow in the same pattern a a homo sapien's or homo erectus' grow, which should be more than enough to classify it as a new branch of humanoid.
But if the elephant is already miniature, there is no need to splice with a pig.
That is why the small elephant is so awesome.
I, for one, welcome our Komodo-dragon-eater pygmy overlords
I laughed about & I'm from 'rop
Yes, "real" religion where people continue to do the same things they'd do without God. Here in the states, "living in sin" only includes homosexuality, while in reality it should include alcoholism, addiction, lust, covetous behavior, and not giving your heave offering. Once again, a culture has adapted certain rules from a religion in order to justify their actions. The Jews extracted ideas from Zoroastrianism. The Romans codified and extracted ideas from Christianity. The only culture that follows the full word of their religious text is
"Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own." -JFK, 1961
That was forty three years ago. I'm always astonished that people refuse to realize that supernatural events have never, and will never exist. No one can present to me one miracle documented by modern technology and not hearsay.
Once you find your spiritual pockets empty, think about how many resources arrive at the dead-end of church building while the true salvation of food, medicine, and science wither throughout the third world.
I'm so tired of quack science making it into the mainstream.
They say that they're 'surprised' that despite the small brain size, they appeared to be quite smart. This is contrary to what we know: brain size seems to have little correlation with intelligence amongst modern humans that are not defective, and there's strong fossil evidence for ancestoral species having fairly large brains as well.
Also, there's no accounting for the construction of the pyramids with modern man's intelligence/knowledge, so there must've been smart humans at that time as well. Maybe not technologically advanced as we'd see things, but certainly inventive and observant of the world around them.
It also sounds nuts to me that they'd claim this is an entirely different species. It seems to me that it's just as much a seperate species as blacks are a different species than whites, or what have you. They're still fundamentally human, and can co-populate with other humans. Granted, there's no direct evidence that this was possible, but it seems possible. There are plenty of 4-foot-tall humans today.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Its likely than homo sapiens could successfully breed with other hominoids, but would naturally be disinclined to do so. Sort of like lions and tigers, donkeys and horses, etc.
You forgot step 3...PROFIT!
Really, did we absolutely, positively need to use the hobbit analogy? After exhausting all other possibilities, it was decided that "hobbit" was the most fitting term to describe this new species?
See, Bush wins.
Read the story. The elephant still weighted a ton. It would be a Hummer vs. the smaller H3 for example. Granted It would be cool to have one to care your stuff to a ground floor apartment.
It's not like they got there and said "Hey, resources are limited here and if the population grows too much our decendants are going to be short." There was probably plenty to survive on for the first arrivals, and with time their culture adapted to the island. The decendants of the first arrivals may have forgotten whatever boating tech that allowed them to get there, and that was the only home they knew. Remember, grapefruit sized brains.
The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
:-P
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie,
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
Looks like they escaped Sauron but wound up in Indonesia.
one of 'em had nine fingers, another was balding and soiled with fish scales, and two were clutching long clay pipes and had tree bark under their nails...
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Well they already did it with dinosaurs. Just find some amber with a mosquito in it!
"Why don't we see human remains on this particular island before 11,000 years ago?"
Because like good natives, they made good use of ALL the body parts.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Probably not.
...
... The last evidence of this human at Liang Bua dates to just before 12,000 years ago, when a volcanic eruption snuffed out much of Flores' unique wildlife.
Most folklorists believe that myths about wee folk are remnants of animist beliefs. When a new religion came people merged it with it's earlier religion, and the animist spirits became the wee folk. A good example is how Pan has many features in common with the Christian devil.
As the wee folk of different cultures usually has much more in common with how spirits are viewed in animist cultures than with any small humans I believe we can disregard the homo foresiensis as any explanation of the wee folk.
But this on the other is probably a myth based on fact (from the BBC article):
"Even more intriguing is the fact that Flores' inhabitants have incredibly detailed legends about the existence of little people on the island they call Ebu Gogo.
The islanders describe Ebu Gogo as being about one metre tall, hairy and prone to "murmuring" to each other in some form of language. They were also able to repeat what islanders said to them in a parrot-like fashion.
Yet there are hints H. floresiensis could have lived on much later than this. The myths say Ebu Gogo were alive when Dutch explorers arrived a few hundred years ago and the very last legend featuring the mythical creatures dates to 100 years ago.
But Henry Gee, senior editor at Nature magazine, goes further. He speculates that species like H.floresiensis might still exist, somewhere in the unexplored tropical forest of Indonesia. "
Really something for the cryptzoologists!
Evolution is just a scientific theory. Creationism is not.
.. is because its a 'resource loop', where all races are 'balanced'.
okay, how about this: the humans eat the elephants (and use them for war), the lizards eat the humans, and the elephants eat whatever the hell they want.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
They become beings of pure energy! Which about fourteen seconds later is grounded into a tree, and that's the end of THAT.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So either it is another island they are talking about (possibly in the vicinity of Flores) or their 31sq km figure should read 31 thousand sq km (not likely given the importance of the small size of the island that explains their evolution to a small skeleton).
You can see a detailed map or the archipelago here:
http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/scalenet/images/indoFlores is approximately at 9S 122E
Here is the states "living in sin" covers anyone living together who is not married and having "relations". That includes any combination of men and women you can to name. The sin in this case would be premaritial sex.
The other things would all be discribed more as living sinfully, or a being a sinner.
I'm not sure what compelled you to put the homophobic anti-religion spin on things.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
>I guess I'm a creationist now, I'm glad someone had the decency to tell me.
Are you claiming that you originated the toughts you posted? I have never encountered anyone voicing the blather you posted who did not have an a priori belief in creationism. There is not one "criticism you posted that has an ounce of support for it.>Maybe you are afraid to admit that evolutionary science is full of holes,
Hardly! Please list some of these alleged holes. I would absolutely love to find one. I figure that it would be worth a Nobel Prize and life tenure at Harvard or Stanford. Seriously. My only frustration is with religious zealots trying to shoehorn their fundamentalist dogma into science classrooms.I notice that you do not deny being a creationsist. If you are going to try to pretend that your bushwah actually passes for scientific thought, you should read some actual science. That way you won't sound like a luddite. I seriously doubt that you have heard "many" people who are not creationists criticize scientific researchers for leaps of faith. That statement is another staple of the creationist propaganda mill, as is the posture of wounded innocence that you affect. Save it for someone who hasn't seen it hundreds of times. As for religion, I have no quarrel with it until it enters the science classroom. On a personal level, I regard Biblical Litteralism and its offspring, creationism as heresy.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Considering they lived in indonesia that long ago, they probably looked more like Oompa-Loompas. But I have a feeling that it wouldn't be PC enough to say in a news report.
Bork!
Wow. Short people. Lets fly off the handle and create some totally cockamamie story. Archaeologists just love doing that, especially when they find human bones that are the least bit different from the norm. New spiecies? My bet is that they're no more a different species than pygmies. Just a race of people who happen to be short due to a combination of short genes becoming dominant and inbreeding in a closed pool. But that's not gonna make the cover of SciAm.
The article also mentioned "many anthropologists have argued that in recent years, scientists have been adding too many new species to the human evolutionary tree. They say scientists have become too quick to call what may simply be an unusual individual a member of a whole new species."
Evidently these anthropologists have given up on science, perhaps in favour of post-modernism and critical theory. The argument is mathematically irrational. It implies, given the comparatively small number of ancient hominid finds, that through incredible luck, paleontological anthropologists are finding many "unusual" individuals without proportionate examples of "normal" ones.
The image of the skull in the article shows a more or less normal face with an unusually low cranial vault. Given additional examples, and they now report seven more, "species" or "subspecies" is looking appropriate.
BTW, did anyone else wonder about "hominins"? Evidently, since I was last taking courses in human evolution, genetic studies have inconventiently reduced the distinction between Hominoids and Anthropoids, while increasing the distance between the Chimps and Gorillas and the the other great apes. Chimps and Gorillas are now members of the Hominids. This was inconvenient taxonomically (or politically and religiously?) and a new level between Family and Genus was introduced called "tribe" and we humans are members of the tribe of hominini.
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
Check it out
Oh, yeah. The earth is flat.
The findings are being reported in Nature, which has exceedingly high standards. There is absolutely no reason to make such accusations.
While not disagreeing with the responses to the initial posters trollish remarks, to suggest that a scientific fact is a fact because it was published in Nature "which has exceedingly high standards" is a shall we say misinformed opinion about how scientific literature works. Each article if deemed appropriate for publication in Nature is reviewed by 2 or 3 scientists in the field. If they say the work merits publication, then Nature will probably publish it. The mistake here is assuming that Nature is unbiased in what they would like to publish- and let me tell you a new Homo species is something Nature will really want to publish. It is high profile, generates news and revenues, and convinces people like this poster that Nature is above reproach. Truthfully, articles like this get second chances and for this article there is probably an extremely limited reviewer pool leading to less of a thorough review than other scientific topics may receive. Publishing scientific journals is as much of a business as any other and while we have may have great trust in Nature, I predict there were still Nature editors wetting their pants over this one!
"That's why I believe the universe was created in the 70's."
Oh lovely. A polyester universe.
The population may have been wiped out by a volcanic activity 12000 years ago or according to local legend may have lived up until the 1500's
Heh, so a random anthropologist walks up to a village..
"Look! Small people! I think they were wiped out a bazillion trillion years ago by lava. It was very climactic with lots of big explosions and a story that will make me very famous in America."
Villager: "Actually it happened in the 1500's when.."
"12000 whole years ago. Imagine that!"
"The people died because--"
"Hey! That was the NYT! They're posting the headline 'Genius Finds Species From Twelve Trillion Years ago' tomorrow! I guess they're off by a few zeroes but hey, we have some wiggle space."
"Our elders knew about a people who--"
"Actually let's just change it to twelve trillion. That's a fun number, don't you think? I love it! It's... Oh, right. What were you saying, Lowly Misinformed Local Person?"
"We have records. They say--"
"Hey, I just struck a deal to sell my new book 'Thirty-quadrillian Year Old Species Found in Indonesia'! I'm rich! I am a flowing river of cash! I'm a festering volcano of money! I am--"
"Are you even--"
"Hey! Get the Hell outta my way, kid, I'm off to show the United States that they were founded by rock formations millions of years ago, and not these stupid 'founding fathers' their mythological legendary myths say. Brady, finish off the interview with this guy."
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
I'm for him, but that was still a clever post.
sigs, as if you care.
ok i just can't wait to see Hollywood's take on that find... Jurassic Park 19?
The fascinating history of H.P. Blavatsky 'The People of Blue Mountains'.
Probably those small people of Indonesia had also his own myths about why and how the were there.
What's in a sig?
They should come check out my local DMV
You know....battleaxes....great helms....shields.....no bows though, dwarves don't need no damn archers.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
The journal Nature has exceedingly high political standards (e.g. it helps if you are a researcher from a reknowned university). It also helps if the reviewers don't have something against you.
Frodo Lives!!!
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
"Brown and his colleagues have found the remains of seven other dwarf individuals at the same site since the first find."
...so which one's Sneezy?
Let me know when they find a normal human female roughly 18 years old next to the fossil of an apple.
[ this message brought to you by kunoichi ]
Truth, Just Us, And Hatred For All Mankind!
finding skeltons of people of shorter stature near asia doesn't surprise me .. then again .. there are those tall asian basketball stars!
This island had smaller elephants. It shouldn't surprise us that this happened to Homo Erectus. The BBC article seems to be saying that these individuals were descended from Homo Erectus, not modern humans or Neanderthal.
To my way of thinking this is just as remarkable as discovering an entirely new branch of humanity, as Homo Erectus dates back about 500,000 years, about twice as long ago as Homo Neanderthalis. The BBC World News said that the discoverers were surprised at how sophisticated the tools associated with the site were.
Homo Neanderthalis are believed to have disappeared about 30,000 years ago. I would find it remarkable if descendants of Homo Erectus outlasted them.
Orang-pendek anyone? As recently as 1847, gorillas were dismissed as silly native legends. It was then that white men finally laid eyes on them. The mountan gorilla was also thought to be central Africa's Yeti until 1901. Then there's the whole tree-beater/lion-killer ape controversy in Africa right now. The moral is: don't dismiss native stories so easily.
These little guys were tool users with brains 380 cubic centimeters in size?
/all I got
Compare contrast with dolphins: 590-1880 cubic centimeters, depending on breed.
Giant lizards ate the hobbits and the miniature elephants lunch!
My question is, howso? They're smaller than ours??? From my own observation of the pic in the story, the single skull that was found looked very human, only smaller.
That's probably the reason you're not an anthoropologist. I can't make all that much much difference between most human remains either, but that doesn't mean they're all the same. People who've dedicated their lives on the subject obviously have much more experience on it, not to mention, it's just a pic, rather small one at that, you haven't held the darn skull.
If that's not enough, they were also there tens of thousands of years earlier than any modern human, if there were H. Sapiens on indonesia 100k years ago (which would probably be a major find on it's own), why aren't there any remains of THEM?
Report: Americans growing taller and wider
...our new extinct pygmy underlords.
Anyone going for the theory that lord of the rings is a history text?
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Wow... calm down buddy!
0 512582/qid=1098937665/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-2470 206-4999335?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
In order to look at anything in a logical manner you first must get your emotions under control. I suggest you get yourself a good, simple, short creationist book like Refuting Evolution http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/089
relax, sit down and read it.
It's good to be skeptical about this "New Human Species!!!" claim. Because claims like this have been wrong 100% of the time in the past I have no reason to put my confidence in this discovery until more research has been done.
Homophobia is pro religion because there's no other way to justify ignorant hatred of something one doesn't understand.
Regardless of that, have you ever thought about why you find it wrong when someone, who has nothing to do with your life, does something to themselves or with someone else who wants the same thing? Taking someone else's life, property, or assaulting them sexually or physically are all wrong because a party is involved against their will. That's what all law is based on.
I picked homophobia because it's one of the easier arguments to make religion look silly.
Why are you against homosexuality?
"Because it's wrong!"
Why is it wrong?
"Because it's not natural!"
In what way is it not natural? It's been part of human history since there has been a history. There've been gay animals, including dolphins. Possibly all bonobo apes are bisexual.
"But God said so!"
Naturalism is a crap argument anyhow, since animals are capable of atrocities close to those committed by humans. There is no reason to believe any religious text, except for self-interest, fear, or both. (Apologies to Mr. Bonaparte.)
from
http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?artic leID=0 0082F87-7D35-117E-BD3583414B7F0000
October 27, 2004
Digging Deeper: Q&A with Peter Brown
A discoverer of an extinct dwarf species of human reflects on one of the most startling paleoanthropological revelations in living memory
By Kate Wong
Researchers announced today that an excavation in Liang Bua cave on the Indonesian island of Flores has uncovered a new species of human, barely a meter tall, that lived as recently as 13,000 years ago. Christened Homo floresiensis, the hominid--known primarily from a partial skeleton known as LB1--had adult body and brain proportions comparable to those of the much older australopithecines, such as Lucy. Other features, however--including those related to chewing and walking--align it with our own genus, Homo. Describing the find in the October 28 Nature, Peter Brown of the University of New England in Armidale, Australia, and his colleagues surmise that H. floresiensis was a descendant of H. erectus. With H. sapiens arriving in eastern Asia by 35,000 years ago, and relic populations of H. erectus possibly persisting on nearby Java, three human species may have co-existed in this region not so long ago. Scientific American.com's editorial director, Kate Wong, spoke with Brown about the discovery. An abridged, edited transcript of their conversation follows.
KATE WONG: What brought you to Flores in the first place? I assume you weren't expecting to find something like this.
PETER BROWN: The work in Flores was initiated by Mike Morwood, who's in in my department [at the University of New England in Armidale, Australia]. He has a project looking at the evolution and migration of people through the Indonesian archipelago and in Australia. He was interested in Liang Bua, which is a cave on Flores, because of previous work by R. P. Soejono [of the Indonesian Center for Archaeology in Jakarta]. It's a beautiful, large rock shelter and it clearly had a deep deposit. But previous work had only looked at the upper Mesolithic layer--no one had tried to dig to the bottom. So Mike went back with a large team, as well as with Professor Soejono, and dug down to bedrock, in the course of which they found lots of stone tools and eventually came across this hominid skeleton.
KW: There's been a fair amount of controversy about the ages of various human fossils from Southeast asia. How did you date LB1 and how confident are you in the ages that you obtained?
PB: There's a large team of experts in various fields of dating--including radiocarbon dating, optically stimulated luminescence, uranium series, electron spin resonance--and these technniques were applied to the site. Fortunately, the results are consistent. The carbon found in close association with the skeleton is about 18,000 years old. And there are optically stimulated luminescence dates above and below, and a series of other dates going down toward the bottom of the deposit as well. They all appear to be consistent and nicely stratified, so you have a range from the bottom of the site at about 94,000 years ago, give or take a little bit, to the skeleton at about 18,000, again give or take some. So we're happy with the dating results.
KW: LB1 has such a tiny body and brain--as small as the smallest australopithecine on record. Did you ever think about assigning it to a new genus rather than just a new species?
PB: In the initial letter to Nature, that's exactly what I did. But I was persuaded on further rumination that it should be placed in the genus Homo. On initial examination I was impressed by the features it appeared to share with early [hominids] like Australopithecus, but other features were more like Homo. For instance, australopithecines have large, projecting facial skeletons (large molar and premolar teeth in particular), whereas the face of LB1 is much more similar to members of the genus Homo. So you have this very humanlike looking face stuck with this very, very
This discovery is big news around here because it involves several UNE (University of New England, Australia) staff, and this is a very small and rather provincial university. So here's the press release on our own site... http://www.une.edu.au/news/
So THAT's where Willy Wonka found the Oompa Loompas!
;-)
LoompaLand has been FOUND!
>Second, this rips back open the possibility of >our faerie tales being more true than most of us >would have expected.
That's only a big deal though for those of us who were sufficiently narrow minded that we weren't able to concede that possibility to begin with.
I buried myself in cryptozoology as a kid. As an example, after having read for a few years about Bigfoot, we learnt in Year 7 history at school that there was at one time a hominid species called Gigantopithecus walking around that was supposedly nine or ten feet tall. To me the idea that some individuals of this species may have survived in isolated areas wasn't really all that outrageous at all. I will admit that in Bigfoot's case the fact that no carcasses have been found doesn't lend a lot of weight to the idea that the creature definitely exists, but to me *if* it does, Gigantopithecus is as good an explanation of what it is as any. Also, if they were able to extract DNA samples from the Gigantopithecus remains they've dug up and compare them with a sample from say, Andre the Giant or Matthew McGrory, I think they'd probably find at least some resemblance.
I myself have a form of autism, and while I'm not a geneticist, I'd be willing to bet money that in in 5-10 years a reference to "Homo sapiens aspergius" or something similar is going to show up on Wikipedia, because they're going to find out that a person with autism is not genetically *identical* to mainstream homo sapiens.
They're saying that this rewrites everything we know about human evolution. Personally, I don't think it does anything of the kind. We already know about (as two examples) the difference between the tiger and the domestic housecat, or say a wolf and a miniature schnauzer, even though they are known to be genetically related to each other.
What we're dealing with is exactly the same thing here. Andre, Matthew, Kenny Baker, John Merrick and me are all members of the human family tree...we're just not all exactly on the same branch...in the same way that a miniature poodle isn't identical to a rottweiler.
From my own observation of the pic in the story...
So you just see a picture in a web page and you know better than the paleontologyst that has examined the real thing for months. I don't know why you are not at least ruling the Natural History Museum of London. Oh, wait a minute... it may be because you don't know such a basic thing that the skeleton of a young mammal is quite different from that of an adult?
Regards
Luke
#include witty_one_liner.h
Fossil miniature elephants, even miniature mammoths (yeah, if there ever was a word pair worth the label of oxymoron) have been known for a long time. The last dwarfed mammoths are know from perhaps as late as 8000 years from Wrangel Island, off the coast of Siberia. Dwarf mammoths are also known from the Channel Islands off California, dwarf elephants from several Mediterranean islands. It's an evolutionary phenomenon known as island dwarfism.
just want to point out that they have smaller ...? ...
skulls (and brains) but they have the same size of
eye socket so they had eyes the same size like a
"modern" human!
also to just quote the volume of the skull as
a measurement for intelligence this is wrong, size
say you have a huge skull volume but a average
nerve cell is like the size you find in a squid you
coulden't get 100 billion nerves cells, so maybe
this small indonesians had smaller skulls but maybe
just the same amount of nerve cells, but smaller
ones
(maybe they'll try to clone one - jurassic park?)
the tiny elephant is noteworthy too
> Maybe you are afraid to admit that evolutionary science is full of holes
Name three.
> I did not say anything about being a creationist
I notice you aren't actually denying it, either.
Sometimes people give away more than they intend to.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
> It's good to be skeptical about this "New Human Species!!!" claim. Because claims like this have been wrong 100% of the time in the past
Claims "like this" in what sense? Are you unaware how many hominid species have been found, and have withstood the test of time?
> I have no reason to put my confidence in this discovery until more research has been done.
It's always good to withold judgement on fresh discoveries. But at least they published their find in Nature rather than at a press conference, like discoverers of Atlantis are prone to do.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
That's tender young juicy Hobbit meat you are talking about.
The four-foot-tall Eloi taste better because by AD 802701, they're bred to. And they look like those Precious Moments figurines.
Before the flood, all landmass was Pangaea. Earthquakes set in motion tectonic movements.
From the Scientific American interview: ...We know Stegodon, like elephants, could swim large distances. Elephants are occasionally found five to 10 kilometers out to sea, and Flores is not so far from Komodo, and Komodo is not so far from the other islands in the chain. So you can easily think of elephant relatives swimming across here. ...The queston is whether [early humans] used watercraft..."
"KW: How deep are the waters surrounding Flores?
PB:
The answer is obvious. Hobbits rode on elephants to the islands.
Homo Neanderthalis are believed to have disappeared about 30,000 years ago. I would find it remarkable if descendants of Homo Erectus outlasted them.
I was totally with you until that last bit. Why would that be remarkable? If their niche is preserved (or one is always found by them) free of competitive elements (think: small isolated island) there's no reason they should disappear.
The same argument can be made for Homo baggins.
mefus
In Open Society, GPL Software frees YOU!
The most depressing thing about scientists is that we have to hear their tired literarary references. Yeah we get it. Perhaps middle-earth actually existed. woaooohh.
It is remarkable because, up until the discovery of these specimens, Homo Erectus was believed to have gone extinct over 100,000 years ago.
That is a different subject. Earlier you said it was remarkable that H. erectus outlasted H. neanderthalensis. Now you are saying it is remarkable their descendents are discovered to have survived so long after their disappearance. Either one of these is problematic.
Not to mention the fact that it is the descendents of H. erectus that are the subject under discussion and not H. erectus itself. It seems perfectly logical to me that H. erectus itself may have died out but an isolated clade continued while diverging into something altogether different. Not revolutionary (or remarkable) but merely evolutionary.
mefus
In Open Society, GPL Software frees YOU!
Homophobia is pro religion because there's no other way to justify ignorant hatred of something one doesn't understand.
Come on, what about jocks or other groups that harras gays or other "fringe" groups (their thinking, not mine). Are you saying that every jock is a born again christain? Hardly. Humans need no justification at all to hate someone else besides them being different from themselves. Or would you also say racism is all religious as well?
The problem of course that you also have with attacking religion with homophobia is that not all religions are against it. So it just makes YOU look silly when you attack religion based on it. And what about the friends of mine that are gay and also catholic? You are essentially attacking the religion they believe very strongly in. You make the issue black and white and just like every other issue it's just not so. Make fun of ignorant people but don't brush any religious group wholesale with that same thinking.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
...But I digress. TREMBLE PUNY HUMANS!ONE DAY MY SPECIES WILL DESTROY YOU ALL!
Thus the difference between "justified" hate and ignorant hate. If you simply hate something you don't understand, you're ignorant. If you hate something you don't understand and you have some ancient text as your supposed basis for it, you're holy.
I don't care what race or sexual orientation you are - if you believe that the millions of tragedies that happen every day in this world are somehow guided by a supernatural being or force, you're absolutely kidding yourself.
Muslims are killing Hindus, Christians are killing Muslims, Jews are killing Muslims, Muslims are killing Jews, and no miracle has happened in favor or against anyone.
If God acts at all, it must be through people. So why waste time and resources doing anything but God's will? Is it God's will for me to get a new laptop? Is it God's will for some asshole on television to get another Bentley? Is it God's will for you to talk about how important it is to help the poor on Sunday, and do nothing every day? Is it God's will for us to kill 12,000 innocent Muslims in Iraq? Is it God's will for Muslims and Jews in Palestine to kill each other?
Religion is complete in it's comfort and completely untrue, because it allows you to believe you're right when you are wrong.
- ___________________________________________
- Kale - gross
- _____________________________
- Cabbage - yummy
- __________________________
- Broccoli - yummy
- _________________________
- Brussell's Sprouts - yummy
- _______________
- Kholrabi - gross
- _________________________
- Cauliflour - yummy
- _______________________
_____________________________________________Are all the same species!??_______
These things had chimp-sized brains, but used fire. Clearly, there is more to technology using intelligence than brain size. Heck. If brain size were all that mattered, elephants, whales, dolphins, etc would be the smarties. Hominids seem to have evolved some sort of trick - a gimmick to be able to think in certain ways. At some point size has to matter, but imagine how many vaccum tubes it would take to equal a stick of the memory in your modern computer....
I don't care what race or sexual orientation you are - if you believe that the millions of tragedies that happen every day in this world are somehow guided by a supernatural being or force, you're absolutely kidding yourself.
It's absolutley wrong to be intolerant of people based on sexual orientation, but OK to deride them based on faith they may have in some higher being that you cannot proove or disprove. I see. Glad you clarified your position.
If God acts at all, it must be through people.
Why? That sounds like a pretty stupid kind of god to me. I can also see you've never played Populous.
Religion is complete in it's comfort and completely untrue, because it allows you to believe you're right when you are wrong.
Just like you take comfort in being so sure that all religion is a fallacy, some people choose to rely on religion as a mental crutch. But not all do so, just like not all those that do not themselves belive is any given god are so ready at the sttack of those that do.
Look up the definition of intolerance and then consider your own viewpoint.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Make me some matter by accident, or energy even 2. While your feeling energetic document progress of that matter into a organism 3. I will tell you when you solve one an two.
1. Make me some matter by accident, or energy even 2. While your feeling energetic document progress of that matter into a organism 3. I will tell you when you solve one and two.
I don't believe it. I never thought in my life time that my ancestors would be in the lime light.
Anyhow, I think I'll straighten out the facts....
Yes, my 7 ancestors were small, and it's due to the fact that basketball did not exist back then. So no one was pressured to become tall, and make millions throwing a ball into a hoop.
Now, your probably wondering how tall I am. Well, I'm 5'9", pretty average huh; however, there still exists a limb that is 3 ft long. It's probably the only thing left that can be attributed to my "hobbit" ancestors.
Ok, I gotta get back to work. By the way, the surviving descendents went onto to become porn and music video stars.
Chimps, which themselves have had 6 million years of evolution since our last common ancestor, aren't so stupid themselves. They use very simple tools and are capable (at least some Bonobos in captivity) of learning to understand human language. Not to mention that some argument can be made to put paniscus and trogdolytes into the Homo genus. (Other species as closely related as chimps and humans do get put in the same genus. But there are political reasons to keep them as Pan and Homo, so it'll probably be a couple of decades before the naming move is made.)
But as this webpage points out (and note the nice side and back views of the skull: most news stories are only showing the front views):
"The accompanying paper on the archaeology also shows the tools found with these little hominids; these weren't simple apes. They were making some wicked weapons and carving tools."
When you look at the graph of brain size vs height for human species on that same page, there is an overlap between erectus and sapiens, and erectus was notable for fire and for creatively making up new stone tools. What I'd assume is that as H.f. became smaller, evolutionary pressure would have maintained as much intelligence as possible... slightly denser grey matter, losing acuity in less important senses. Suppose we'll have to wait for the scans of the insides of the skulls to show what folding is visible there.
I'm not surprised that any member of the Homo family shows intelligence-- we've been doing that for a few million years, and simply shrinking one cousin species ought not to remove too much of it as its a major part of what we are.
I can't prove or disprove anything as far as the existence of God. It's very hard to prove that something doesn't exist.
I can say without hesitation that there have been no reliably recorded miracles, ever. So, if you think that they do exist, I'm going to say that you're wrong, or derisively, that you're kidding yourself.
I can also say with a great amount of certainty that you do not follow whatever religion you claim for yourself, nor have you read the entire text, but that's entirely typical of a religious person. Your reasoning is not based on fact, but emotional attachment or feeling. You don't feel the need to become completely familiar with the things you claim to believe, because you believe.
If all sins are the same, and you ignore any law of God for the sake of compatibility with your modern lifestyle, how can you pretend that you are a true believer? Either every word is true, or the whole thing is a suggestion like everything else. Trust me, I wish I could get everyone to fully read the Old and New Testament as well as the Qu'ran without someone biased for that religion "guiding" them through it, but the reality is that very few people have even read a tenth of any of them.
It's not comforting to see nothing beyond my natural life. It's not comforting to think that people are suffering with no chance of redemption, and that people who are truly evil will never be punished. On the other hand, it would be foolish to pretend things were different to make myself feel better.
The funny thing in the end is that I AM NOT RELIGIOUS! Thus my posiiton in regard to sin is unassaliable. I knew you thought I was but it just goes to show how deep your intolerance runs. You just can't fathom something arguing in support of faith without being a "true believer".
I have friends that are and do not believe that considering them idiots does anything for me and them. What a sad life to consider the majority of the people on the planet fools. By doing so you are saying that you would rather be miserable than to admit that possibly someone else could be correct on a point you can't even disprove! WHy not admit it's a point that is unresolvable, let you and them have differences on that issue and debate on other topics with more substance?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley