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PCs For A Workshop Environment?
bryanporter writes "I'm a geek-turned-homeowner, and am in the processing of setting up my workshop for doing odds and ends around the house. I want to install a cheap, decent PC out there for looking up building plans, shopping for tools while I'm on a job, etc. The shop is going to be in a wooden outbuilding with a shingled roof but the building won't be heated or cooled (although I don't plan on using it much in the summer)." Read on for a bit more on what he's looking for -- what would you suggest for computing in a hostile environment on a non-industrial budget?
"I plan on doing things like sawing wood for shelves in here so dust will also be prevalent. Can any of you Slashdotters recommend components for building a machine resilient to cold weather and lots of dust? I was a PC upgrade/repair technician in a former life, so building my own machines is not daunting in the slightest (I've built all my own home machines). The ruggedized machines I've found online are all too pricey, and all seem more designed for avoiding shock damage than environmental dust and cold."
How about building a small dust-proof closet for the computer and video-out display wirelessly? And add a glass-shielded desk (you see those in some retail shops/banks) where your LCD will be lying on its back facing up, covered by a layer of glass. Wireless keyboard and mouse can be regularly cleaned/dusted off or even replaced.
:)
Failing that, maybe build some sort of a curtainized shed, so you work on the computer inside, like those scientists in the contaminated zone
While most people put the roof back on their convertibles when it's raining, some take out the umbrellas.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Just buy a cheap PC... You would be surprised at the hostile enviroments a PC will live in...
Most important feature of the PC - filters for the intake fans. Keeping the dust and grime out will go along way making a PC in the shop or garage last a long time...
Once a geek, always a geek.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Check out Outdoor Computer Cases
We used to make plexiglass cases for use in the mining industry. Basically just a bit bigger than the system unit, Grommeted cable holes, and shrouded, filtered fans in the plexiglass case giving positive pressure to combat dust ingress.
definitely...buy one that allows you full use while protecting against spills and dust.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
Previous posts made the point of sealing up the computer and monitor... all fine and good. Be sure to get a keyboard that's sealed, and an optical mouse, or a touchpad. There are "roll-up" keyboards that have no exposed moving parts. Also, if you can enclose the computer & monitor in a housing that has a "positive pressure", you'll avoid a lot of the trouble dust. Try to find a way to blow clean air into the enclosure so that no dust can get sucked into the cabinet.
I'm in connecticut on my back deck it's cover but has no sides it's 34 degrees Im using a Power Mac G4 400 Mhz and a dell 15 inch crt I have woke up in the3 morning with snow on my key board I never shut it off just let it sleep It's running like a charm get a mac
http://Lenny.com
The easiest option is to figure out what kind of cables and/or wireless equipment would allow you to keep the PC back in the snug, safe comfort of your house and only have the bare minimum out in the shed.
Initially it seeems like a pain but it's nearly always the easiest and cheapest solution.
...and plug it in.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Most important feature of the PC - filters for the intake fans ...
Right. And keep your PC off the floor, that's where the dust is. Keep the PC on a desk, in a cupboard, etc. Better yet, keep the PC in a separate closet.
-kgj
-kgj
Try finding an older comercial grade system, A Pentium-pro, compaq proliant server, HP Vectra etc they are often built with milspec components and can survive the extremes you are talking about especially when modified in the manner others have been suggesting
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Run a Cat5 and get yourself a Win or X or VNC terminal. Fanless, really rugged. Not too expensive to get a older model ( or used off ebay ).
Keep the 'real' hardware back in the house where it can be protected...
You can also get sealed keyboards for pretty cheap these days.
LCD screens deal better with bad environments then CRT as they run cooler, but they aren't what you would consider cheap.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
forget about CD-ROM or floppies. Just use flash drives
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I have a friend who once did something like this with an old pentium 2 350mhz computer. To keep moisture out, he duct taped all seams on the case and cut makeshift air filters out of simple polyester batting to fit on the fans to keep the dust out and made a small wooden cabinet for the monitor and also used a form fitting plastic keyboard cover to keep it clean. For the mouse, I forgot what he did. I think he might have used a cheap optical mouse.
Having done what you describe in a light industrial environment, the only thing I would add is a work-through dust cover for the keyboard (the same kind you see in use at industrial will-call counters etc.) You can use the keyboard with cover in place, thus protecting it from dust, chemicals, grease, and other nasties on your hands while working. The covers are durable, and clean easily.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
If I were you, I'd go for something with as few moving parts as possible, to reduce the number of points of failure. You could maybe set up a Linux-based thin client or diskless workstation, since it doesn't sound like you'll be using anything more demanding than a web browser.
Another big issue to consider is the monitor. Apparently many CRTs don't like being taken below freezing, and LCDs are even less tolerant.
Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
cheap second hand laptop will be perfect.. even better if you can do a cold air induction pipe to the outside world (with small filter)
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
Yup, make your first project an enclosure-enclosure for the machine with good filters for the ventilation. You can buy large pieces of good filter material by shopping for replacement filters for home air cleaners. Even a good furnace filter will do. Beyond that, most PC hardware will work well in cold conditions pretty well... but a CRT display will probably treat you better in cold weather than a reasonably priced LCD, and is cheap.
Don't forget about moisture condensing within the enclosure. You can buy some pipe heating tape in the hardware store, and use it in really cold weather just to keep the PC's enclosure warmer than its surroundings by a few degrees - that will help. Also: new power supply, mobo and whatnot all will last a long time even if you do virtually nothing, and will be cheaper to replace than a few good rip blades for your table saw and some nice oak planks.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
This is just quick off the top of my head, I am sure others will have better ideas, but maybe think along the lines of building a cabinet for a mame machine though with a keyboard, touchscreen for mouse.
You could carry a laptop to your outbuilding as needed -- bring it in when it's cold -- and something like an Apple iBook (with its cover closed) is relatively durable impact-wise; I've seen them survive after being dropped.
I would get an older, sturdy laptop to use. I have had a Dell Inspiron 7500 (300mhz, can't remember) that has lived forever. I also have a Powerbook G4 Ti, that thing is indestructable. I accidentally ran it over with my car (late 80's Mercedes S-Class. Basically, a tank with leather seats) and it was completely undamaged.
Plug all outputs: mouse, USB, keyboard, and AC. Use wireless for network and power; bluetooth for mouse and keyboard.
Huh? Why have anything but a hard drive and ethernet?
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"
You mention that it will be outside, not heated or cooled - but then omit to mention if you're talking the heat and humidity of Florida, or the bitter cold of Fairbanks.
I had a system in a similarly non-controlled climate, and it was fine just until the temperatures started to hit freezing. That was enough for the moist Vancouver air to condense, and frzzzt....
The mentions of thinclients sound like the best plan so far. Not only is it easier to seal up, with less heat generation there and less moving parts, it's also easier to move back inside when the weather becomes unfriendly to electronics.
How cold do you expect it to get? If it is below freezing, the hard disk could be a problem. (Frozen or too thick lubricant can prevent the disk from spinning up) You may want to use the shop machine as a diskless X-terminal. You can either network boot a PC or see if you scavange a real X-terminal cheap.
That sounds a little over budget to me.
I was thinking getting a cheap p2-p3 system, whatever you can find lying around. Sometimes you can find them in the trash. just stick some of these babies on them (fan filters: http://www.directron.com/fangrill80bb.html) where ever there is holes in the case.
Get a cheap ass optical mouse. Try to find one that has an completely enclosed optical device. If it doesn't no big deal, you can find them for $3-4 at pricewatch.com.
Get a keyboard leaflet, this is a must. http://www.kador.com/leaflet1.htm
you can get one here for free, if you don't mind being "creative"
Finally a can of compressed air from your local office supply and your set.
"...a wooden outbuilding with a shingled roof but the building won't be heated or cooled..."
It will be if you use an overclocked Duron or Prescott...
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
Since when does sawdust destroy a computer?
Since it destroys fans and is set on fire inside PSUs, for example.
Build or find an enclosure. Doesn't have to be fancy, just big enough and reasonably well sealed.
Not only will you have to worry about dust, but possibly insects and rodents. If it's feasible, set it up so it draws in air directly from outside and into the enclosure (optionally exhaust the air to the outside as well). Failing that, get a decent filter and a stronger fan to pull the air through it. A large automotive air filter will probably be sufficient and those are fairly cheap. Suck air through the filter, don't blow into it.
Keep the enclosure under positive pressure (Blow air in) to keep dust from sneaking in any cracks or seams. Very little wiring would be needed for a remote power switch so you can turn it on without opening the cabinet, and a small access door with a decent seal to access drives/ports. (Don't have any ports exposed if you don't want them clogged with dust!)
I honestly don't see cold weather being a problem. Moisture might be, though... you don't want condensation inside the case! Using a chemical desiccant of some sort will help keep the moisture out of the way and hopefully eliminate the need for a heater or leaving it on all the time to prevent condensation.
First link on Google that seems to actually sell the stuff retail. Reusable packs are best so you don't have to keep disposing of the stuff.
=Smidge=
Easy answer -- get a laptop with wireless networking. When you leave your workshop, you take the computer with you.
No wires or other hassles for setup, either.
-ch
... why not go completely fanless and seal the thing up completely? Many people - especially those building HTPCs - go with entirely passive cooling so they don't have noisy fans. There are some nice (but fairly expensive) all-aluminum HTPC cases where the case itself acts as a heat sink for components. You don't need a P4 or some other massively powerful CPU; you don't need a 15K RPM hard drive; you don't need a high power 3D graphics card.
Or just get a used Toughbook off eBay.
We have off the shelf PC's at work, running in an industrial environment. They run 24/7 and have been running since 2000. I blow the dust out of them about every 3 months and reboot the computer. Once in a while I replace a cooling fan. The cooling fan will let you know by the noise.
and just use a long monitor cable for the screen, 10m would be plenty (and if the cable went through a wall even less!)
prolly cost you $20, add on a spill cover for the keyboard and you're sorted
This post is so completely inaccurate, I don't know where to start. I can't believe it was modded "Informative"... oh wait, yes I can. I'll tackle a few points....
"Building a computer resilient to cold weather should not be a problem in the slightest. In fact, many computers would run effectively much much better in a cold climate. A big factor in the overall heat that the CPU gives off has to do with the ambient temperature"
The CPU will work fine in the cold, but you're missing the point. The things that will be most affected by the cold are moving parts... fans, and hard drives in particular. When it's really cold, those hard drives might not spin too well. There's also the moisture issue which is going to have bad short term (possible shorts) and long term (corrosion) effects on everything.
"If you buy slightly new hardware, chances are they are going to give off an immense amount of heat...which is a problem facing microprocessor makers in general, the rising heat problems. Trust me, a Pentium 4 or AMD64 would love a cold climate."
The AMD64s are renowed for their low heat dissipation. They run at an even lower voltage (and often at a lower clockspeed!) than AMD's previous CPU generation, the AthlonXPs. They also have laptop-like ability to throttle their clockspeed when the CPU is idle, reducing heat output even further.
"the only thing that the cold will aversely affect is the initial bootup of the machine. Like a car, a computer requires the most energy in the first moments of startup. If you are booting up a computer in a cold environment (a cold cold boot hehe), you may have some problems"
No, you're totally wrong. A computer does have an initial spike in power draw during bootup (because it's spinning up the drives and fans) but this is less than the power it draws under full load (100% CPU and video usage - ie, gaming).
And the car battery analogy is totally inappropriate. A car battery can have problems cranking out power in the cold because the chemical reactions in the battery that produce electricity happen more slowly in the cold. That's absolutely not what happens in a computer, where the power supply is simply transforming power from AC to DC. Get it? It's not producing power; it's taking it from the outlet in the wall, transforming it, and sending it to the motherboard and other peripherals. The effect of cold temperatures on the PSU is minimal, if anything.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing something. The problem is not knowing that you don't know something. I don't know Python or Perl, but that's okay... I don't try and hand out advice on those topics.
"Although the computer will run fantastic (i wish my room was freezing cold!) in a cold climate"
Let me guess: you're an "avid" overclocker. That tells me a lot. I'm surprised you don't have your system specs listed in your sig.
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
Silly people and their supposed "reliable" PCs. VAX rules them all!
... :o
PS: PC with air filter and IBM model M keyboard.
Extend your monitor, keyboard/mouse, and audio over cat5 cable up to a few hundred feet away and share your regular pc from out in the shop. I use several of these at work, and they are great for sharing a single purpose workstation on both sides of the building. Or just get an old pc and don't worry about it, if it dies, get another one.
--dingletec--
Call it off-topic .. but has anyone else noticed that if they use Slashdot without logging in, all I see on the main page is the old news .. the 5 most recent news articles are not updated for some reason. I tried re-loading the page, restarting the browser and even switched browsers - same shit.
Wish I did that 20 years ago, Wood working sure beats kissing some MBA asshome.
"WHAT THE FUCK? MORE LIKE TROLL FILTER"
Yes, I think that's sort of the point.
This text inserted here to defeat filter.
Stupid-ass filter doesn't even know when you're quoting someone.
+++ATH0
1)Get a clear plastic container to hold the cpu and monitor (or two seperate cases if you use a CRT).
2)Cut a hole in said plastic case and epoxy/hotglue/ductape a resperator filter or part of a vacume cleaner bag over it.
3) Go about building the CPU as you would go about building a home theater PC or similar in terms of heat output and fans and such.
4) Put your USB, ethernet, and power connections through other some smaller holes, and seal those with electrical tape or epoxy or something.
5) depending on where you live you might also want to put some kind of moisture obsorbing material in the case like paper towels or drierite desiccants.
6) If you're a cheap masochist, you might get a ball mouse. Otherwise, just get a regular optical mouse and carefully tape flexible plastic around the edges of the buttons (with enough slack for the buttons to function).
I've heard good things about the durability of rollup keyboards.
7) Upgrade the sound system in your house so that you can hear it clearly out in your shed. Make sure that you can control it via ssh.
good luck!
I have seen PCs running partially submerged in water in a flooded basement server room. The water was up to about the third PCI slot from the end of the mainboard.
I think if you make you shop computer easily accessible with your shop vacuum you should be fine.
The keyboard is really the only delicate item, the aforementioned roll-up type should be fine.
At my primary place of employment we have machines in fairly close proximity to arc welding, diesel exhaust and other machine shop types of activity, no problems.
Regular Slashdot readers should already know about PCs in rendering plant environments.
where they deployed PCs everywhere. They also had tons of grease and all other sorts of contaminants being flung about. They just used generic Compaq computers with cheapy 15" flatscreens. We just stored them in a cheaply made wooden shelf with a plastic shield to protect the monitor and a keyboard shelf. I imagine since you are good with tools, you could construct one of these yourself.
They tried using special keyboard mouse combo devices(basically just a trackball and a few buttons added on to the right side of the keyboard), but these ended up breaking quite frequently and seem to be harder to find. I would recommend just using cheap keyboards and mice, and keep plenty around. They are probably the most likely thing to break.
Monstar L
Most LCD panels have an operating temperature range of 0 to 50 degrees C (32 to 140 degrees F). The upper end of the range is unlikely to be a problem, but if your workshop is likely to get below freezing in the winter an LCD monitor will likely get damaged: use a conventional CRT based monitor instead.
Anyways, I second this post. I'd also like to mention that you might try booting your OS off of the network and loading it into RAM and skip the whole hard drive altogether. That way you can keep the number of moving parts as low as possible (and save some cash).
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
I'd get a cheap laptop and a wi-fi card. That way you can take the laptop out there and work while you need, and keep it in the house the rest of the time. Alternatively, you could buy one of those cheap barebones "mini" PCs with a handle and simply carry it from house to shed as necessary.
Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
Take whatever computer you like and drill a hole through your wall. Use flexable dryer vent and seal the case. Buy and old keyboard, cheap monitor, internal wireless card and you should be set.
You can make your holes (in and out) not look bad. Think about the dryer vent covers or use your wall cavity and vent into the attic. If you really want to make sure that it works buy a good bathroom vent fan and tie it in.
Wait a minute I like this idea. I will add a relay switch to it so I don't even have to turn the fan on and use this idea in my shed.
First of all: Do not run cat-5 between buildings. Unless you have the ability to figure out and prevent ground loops, you are asking for trouble. Use either fiber or wireless. (or 10base5, if you can find it anymore, but shipping from eBay is likely to be more than other solutions)
Next, put the computer off your clean room. Cutting wood implies that you will be putting a finish on it latter, and finish should always be applied in a separate room that is well filtered and ventilated. (and heated!) Now you don't want your computer in the fumes from some finishes (you never know what will eat plastic), but you otherwise want exactly the same environment for both.
If you want to use the computer in the main shop, start with a wide format printer so you can print your instructions off. (this can be in the house) Then consider a projector, through a window from the clean room to a wall elsewhere. Requires some forethought of how to place things so it will work, but otherwise useful. If not that, run an LCD through a wall. Use the cheapest keyboard you can find in the shop so you don't care when it goes.
Last, search rec.woodworking. (google groups used to be good for this) This subject has been brought up many times.
You mean the dielectrics.
It's "decent" not "decient".
At least your consistent.
Back on topic, I would say to just filter all the openings in the case, and make sure you have decent fans in the system so it doesn't overheat. Just make sure you clean the filters often, otherwise they will get clogged and make the fans useless.
It's a Celeron 300 running stripped down Windows XP. I have a decent ATI 7500 AIW so I also have TV out here. I've upgraded the RAM to 512MB. I did lose a hard drive a couple of years ago(no problem as I back up my data to my server in my home office), but other than that the thing has been on for 5 years straight. I leave the case open(like most of my PC's, should probably close them but I'm constantly moving parts etc.) I blow out the cobwebs, dust and wood chips every couple months or so.
Works great, although lately I've been thing about upgraded to 1 Ghz or so.
Mainly due to their low price (can be had for about 400$), and their much smoother exteriors (less cracks for dust to find its way into).
Grab yourself a shuttle or jetway, if you dont need a cd-rom/floppy you can leave the sealing front plates on them, having only the rear fan's outake as an open oriface, and pushing your price down to nearly 300$ (www.zipzoomfly.com).
after that your pretty much home free, every few months you can slide the cover back (three thumb-screws or less) and give the interior a quick air-dusting...
Since the size is small, it can be safely tucked away somewhere more secure than a full fledged tower might go, and can be kept all the more less exposed to dust and other harmfull airborne materials.
Heat is rarely a problem with all but the oldest and newest models, so as long as you keep the arc weilder away from the power cables you should be fine!!
Invest in a wireless keyboard/mouse, and youve reduced your clutter/liabilities that much more.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
They had a covered dock area for loading and all the offices were ventilated from the warehouse. Diesel fumes from the trucks trickled in and made all the vents pitch black. And inside the PC, they were completely black. They had been running the same PCs for 5 years with no more problems than anyone else has.
Bottom line, unless there are liquids around, you will probably be fine with just cleaning it out every once in a while.
I'm not drunk, I just have a speech impediment. And a stomach virus. And an inner ear infection.
The Microtel PC's available via the Wal-Mart website come without the Microsoft tax, for under $300.
I've bought three. All three have had the power supply fail in the first year. One had the CPU fan fail at 13 months, fried the mobo.
I've learned a lot owning Microtels. I've also learned that wouldn't want to subject one to a shop environment.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
I work for a support company. We do networks and hardware repair for all sorts of companies. Anything from $200 an hour lawyers to to heavy industrial.
My point is at the industrial places I have seen a lot of computers. I've had to fix PC's with 3 inches of metal shavings inside the case. Layers of black nasty dust. Computers you don't even want to touch because they are so nasty. Puddles of oil on them.
The majoriy of them still run, still work fine. Espically considering that some of them are Pentium based PC running 95 and they are still working in this enviroment.
Get a used PC, or put togather one from your parts bench. Put it in your shop. Forget about it, it will run forever. Just try to keep it away from the sander.
I'd suggest you get a Dual G5 iMac-
At first you are going to say that this machine is total overkill...
...The beauty of this machine is it can cool and heat the shed with it's massive heat production, and insane amount of fans.
I wasnt aware you could do wireless power...
He say 1 and 1 and 1 is 3, got to be good lookin' cause hes so hard to see...
Run a cable underground to a server and do a network boot from a sealed fanless box.
Has anyone figured out wireless booting?
Your display might be tricky. You probably want a CRT to keep the cost down. All I've seen cool themselves by convection, which might just mean using cheap monitors and some kind of easily removed grille or ramped flap designed to let warm air out, but to keep inordinate amounts of dust from settling inside.
Woops I think they come out on tuesday... I mean powermac :P
OK so you want to do it cheap, and you seem quite handy. So here is an idea. buy a case with minimal air intakes (one to two if your can), and pipe that intake outside, with large diameter PVC plumbing. The fans blowing out of the case you put good filters on, and let them blow into the shed. That takes care of the guts. Wireless keyboards and mice? The truth is most external connections are pretty resiliant, but a little duct or insulation tape around the connected plugs can go along way to protect it even further. That leaves the remaining open parts of the system, the monitor vent holes (of CRT monitors) and the open buttons of the keyboard and mouse. For the mouse and keyboard you can buy quality sealed versions, or very cheap disposable unsealed versions, and you don't lose much from testing a cheap keyboard and mouse to see how long they last before commiting to a more expensive sealed keyboard and mouse. So that leaves the hard part, the monitor. LCD's can be bought totally sealed at a premium cost, or you can buy specially bought expensive cases for CRT's. Either that or you you try and put a cheaper monitor under glass in a container that you have made. Ideally get cooling air from the outside like the main box and vent it into the shed.
While there's lots of really, really good ideas here, I could add one more comment.
If your shop PC craps out in 2-3 years (due to the hostile environment, or whatever), what are you going to do? Probably the same thing you'd do if it didn't crap out -- upgrade. Most folks I know usually upgrade their #1 system (the one in your house) every 2-3 years anyway, so just move the hand-me-downs into the (shop) #2 system, clean the li'l puppy up while you're at it, and your good to go for another 2-3 years.
Unless you're going into the shop-made furniture business, the dust/dirt probably won't kill it in that time frame.
Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
i used to work IT in a very filthy factory that has ~50 HP Pavillion PC on the shop floor. They held up very well, I believe, for one major reason, they rn P75's with passive cooling. Just before i left they were starting to upgrade to PII 400 machines with fans on the heatsinks. Some of the P75's had been in service for multiple years with out a hardware failure. There were a couple of PII's that failed due to overheating within 6 months, all of which had fans so cloged that they could turn anymore...
However besides that the only component that must completely be kept clear of any sawdust is your hard drive. Any sort of foreign molecule will cause it to screw up, so when buying a hard drive make sure its fully encased and not one of those drives which has its bottom open with the circuit board showing.
The sensitive bits of the drive (magnetic media, heads) are hermetically sealed, even when the PCB is exposed. Why should the PCB of a hard drive be more dust-sensitive than any other PCB in your system?
This is on top of many more inaccuracies/misconceptions pointed out in another reply.
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I am in the process of getting a shop building built as well. My plan is to go with a mini itx box that network boots from the main machine inside my house. The plan is that I can remote in to the main machine using rdp or vnc to access any cad programs I may have or just to do a quick lookup for information on the internet.
At my previous job, we used regular old HP Vectra's outside running 24/7 year round in extreme conditions and other then the floppy drive (which we started removing because they did not need them anyway), they did not break anymore then the PC's indoors. I am talking about an airline and the specific PC's were at the curbside checkin, outside baggage areas, and remote maintenance areas. Cold, dry, hot, humid, rain, snow, sun, wind, dust, dirt and people using them that did not care... Obviously getting rained on directly is not a good idea but I'd assume you'd have much bigger problems if that happens.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
The only special items I would suggest would be some cheap air filters (probably a sponge sheet where you can use scissors and cut things to size) for your fan intakes and an optical mouse. A lot of posters have suggested using old equipment, which is a good idea if you want to keep your main machine nice and pretty, but using an old roller-ball style mouse in a shop environment is asking for problems. Imagine all the crap that would get gummed up in that thing... ew.
You spelled Monkey Wonk-Wonk wrong!
Good idea. That's how a cone truck I worked on solved the problem. They used an old thinkpad and it was tough. It was fanless too, so you did not have to worry as much about dust. The purpose of the cone truck was to shove a rod (cone) into the ground to determine soil types. It was a hot and dirty environment, but the Thinkpad collected data for years. Eventually, the keys got sticky.
You can pick up 486 and pentium laptops for next to nothing on ebay. If the thing has trouble booting of a CD, just get a $10 adaptor and install it in a faster computer. Woody works on my old thinkpad and so did Potato. Afterstep or Window Maker run well within 24MB or RAM and you can use Dillo and other packages chosen by Feather Linux to get your work done. Don't forget PCMCIA packages! The screens are genreally only 640x480, but they look good.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You can see the end result here. Then scroll down to where you see the links to 'camera box construction'. This worked for me because I was running an 800MHz Pentium. It never got really hot, just warm. So there was no problem hermetically sealing it all.
-- main(s){printf(s="main(s){printf(s=%c%s%c,34,s,34
Another instance of a someone who likes to hear himslef talk. Shooting one's mouth off may make you look smart to your parents, teachers, and buddies, but it doesn't quite fool everyone.
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Points of failure for PCs in dusty environments are the hard drives and fans. I'm looking to build a similar unit like you're describing that is completely void of moving parts (aside from the fan in the power supply, but power supplies are cheap to replace). What parts am I looking for? Mini-itx, VIA EPIA motherboard with a built-in VIA C3 processor that runs without the need of a processor fan (heat-sink still needed, obviously). CompactFlash to IDE adapter that allows me to install a compactflash card as the media storage device. Due to budget issues, I'm restricted to maybe 1GB or 2GB of disk space, but that's plenty for me to install linux with X and fluxbox or enlightenment. I'll also be running VNC or NX client in order to remotely control a desktop on a server safely sitting on my desk in the home office---essentially making the computer a thin client. Since I'm reusing my monitor (if it goes bad, I won't care), keyboard, and mouse, the total cost could feasibly fall under $600.
Linux at home
I use a Neoware neostation 2000. Its a Cyrix 233 chip with an SODIMM and DIMM slot, an IDE header, a PCI slot and sound/nic/video all built in. I net boot mine because I have ethernet strung everywhere, but since their is an IDE header you could easily just pop a drive in there. The unit is totally fanless and has lasted in my garage for some time. Not the fastest thing in the world, but runs linux well, surfs the web and plays mp3's just fine.
www.linux-skunkworks.com
... unless you completely isolate your workshop computer electrically (as with a notebook that accompanies you to & from the shop), the electrical noise from the motors in power tools is likely to feed back through the power & drive a computer nuts.
A separate, filtered power line would be best. Or maybe a car battery driving the PC through an AC inverter, and recharged via a rooftop solar panel.
links:
solar trickle charger
will do - I have had this problem at a dusty plant. Just give it a plastic dust cover and cover it up when you leave, or when you are sawing wood or similar.
Oh well, what the hell...
You can pick them up for under a grand. Plus they are bulletproof :)
Make sure your video card does not require a fan to work. It will be just one more thing to break and fix later.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Make sure you keep the dust out somehow. Either in a dust free area, or with filters that you clean regularly. Nothing like a dirtied box to burn up.
Pantyhose makes great filter material for any openings in the case.
How about a cheap Epia with wireless?
I'm going on the assumption that you're going to have better machines in the house and not using this one for games, etc. The less powerful (but still more than enough for a VNC client) Epia mobos shouldn't need a fan, and if you want you could get a DC power adaptor and laptop brick to save on the cost of a PSU (no fan on the DC adaptor). Depending on what you install the mobo should also be able to handle some video streams, etc
So far in $CAD that's about:
$50-60: DC PSU $15+: 12V 3a, Laptop power brick
$150 or so: Epia (motherboard, CPU, video, LAN, sound etc included)
under $100: Wireless NIC
under $100: small hard-drive
under $100: RAM
If you know a little about linux (or know somebody who can help you) then you could get rid of the hard-drive by running something that boots from a USB stick or perhaps an MMC card (some epias support MMC boot devices, and I've heard of adaptors to plug them into a hard-drive jack)
Obviously you could save by scavenging the RAM, drives, etc from other machines as well, so the only cost of "new" items would be the epia, DC PSU, and power brick. No fans means dust is much less of a problem too.
geek-turned-homeowner... Cuz geeks can't own homes and still be geeks.
RETARD!
Moving parts are bad.
You want to get a passively-cooled system, including the power supply, and just make sure there are decent filters on the vents. With no forced airflow, they won't plug up too badly.
Mini-ITX comes to mind, booting from flash.
Now, any system like this is going to be a dog, so what you want to do is run this as a remote terminal. Either an X-Terminal or Remote Desktop depending on your OS of choice.
As for keyboard/mouse, my garage computer has a Cirque keyboard with a touchpad. Cirque makes a drool cover for the keyboard that covers the pad, and it works fine with the extra layer of plastic. An optical mouse is probably OK as well, but I think you'll be cleaning out a touchpad a lot less.
Display is harder. LCDs are very temperature sensitive. CRTs always have warnings about low temperatures, but I've never had a problem with mine. I don't live in a very cold place, though. 25F happens half a dozen times a year.
HTH
-Z
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
The HD is not airtight, as many people who assumed this and immersed one in cooling fluid quickly found out.. there is an air vent, though it has a great dust filter on it.
Some dust won't hurt the drive, but wood contains chemicals and oils, and having sawdust caked onto ANY pcb could potentially cause problems over time, especially with a bit of moisture added.
At least your consistent.
It should be "you're" (you are) instead of "your" (your property, your cat, your house).
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
You spelled Monkey Wonk-Wonk wrong!
The parent didn't use the term "Monkey Wonk-Wonk" in his post.
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
Get a cheap PC, dump that to a 55 gallon drum, punch a few holes for the cables to come out, pour lubricant oil to the cover the PC and cross your finger...
It means to be a joke initially, but, other than the possiblity of eatting away the plastics, I suddenly think it may work.
That's what's in my shop and it looks great and runs OS X plenty fine for surfing the net and listening to iTunes while I work. They can be had on Ebay for $50-$70 and it's a complete relatively quick PC and monitor. What else could you want?
Walmart.com Get the $200 PC with a full 3 year replacement program ($15). Buy an old monitor from Goodwill (I got a nice 17" Gateway one for $10). It has Xandros, 128mb RAM, and a 1.5ghz processor. It should be everything you need for a simple shop computer, and with the 3 year replacement plan (yes, that is FIFTEEN US dollars), neigh-disposable. Dust clog it up and cause it to catch fire? Turn it in for a new one. Keep backups if you have important data.
If you use a Prescott CPU, the shed WILL BE heated. Very convenient no?
My first thought was a separate cabinet with an external air intake. You can vent either inward or outward, but as others have suggested, you might want to keep the cabinet slightly pressurized so that sawdust doesn't get in, so make the exhaust hole smaller than the intake hole. Put a screen on both the exhaust and the intake holes to keep out small animals seeking the warmth. Use a filter on the intake hole far enough inside the screen so that no vermin will damage it. Use an old IBM model M "clicky" keyboard. Those things will withstand anything. I've even been told that if you take out the circuit board, you can put it in the dishwasher and after it's dried and the circuit replaced, will work just fine. Considering the environment, I'd still try to find a "keyboard condom" to keep out excessive dust and spillage. They make plastic covers, or at least used to. If you can't find one, tape a piece of cellophane over the top of it, and replace it whenever it develops a hole. As for a mouse, a ball would get slick from dust, so go with an optical one. I'm not sure how to keep dust out of the buttons besides a plastic bag (held tight across the bottom so the optics don't "see" it) Barring that, you might try an older sturdy trackball. Your next best option might just be to get a lot of cheap ones and plan on their frequent failure. Wireless networking may or may not suffer from interference due to tools, but you don't need it when you're working on something else, do you? It tends to be unpredictable anyway, so personally I'd run a cat5e out there, but while you're pulling it, pull a spare or two along with it. As far as temperature, I'd worry more about heat than cold, unless the cold gets far below zero. To deal with heat, there's not much you can do besides shutting off the computer and crossing your fingers. To deal with cold, you have condensation to worry about, so you'll want to keep the computer warmer than its environment. Leaving it on in the cold would probably be a VERY good idea. If it's at all practical you might want to bring it in. As people have mentioned, LCD's are extremely susceptible to temperature extremes. Heat will cause the screen to develop a brown stain, so to speak. I'm not sure what cold will do, but I wouldn't want to do it to one of my own. I would try to find a used cheap CRT and enclose it, again filtering any air intake. They still don't like temperature extremes, but they're much more forgiving, and the older ones will be more rugged still and less of a loss if something does happen. As far as design of the PC to withstand the environment, I would strongly recommend no floppy or optical drive if you can get away with it. These tend to die quickly if contaminents get in. If you can get away with not having a hard drive, that would be one less point of failure, considering that hard drives have been known to fail more often at extreme temperatures. If you have any data that you want, make SURE that it's backed up, as high temperatures have extremely ill effects on magnetic media, and low temperatures have ill effects on the mechanical mechanisms. My recommendation would be a network boot if you can get away with it. Either run all your programs from a mapped drive inside the house, or simply use the computer inside via an X server, VNC, or remote desktop. This way you get the added benefit of being able to get away with a significantly less powerful computer outside too. Cabling shouldn't be an issue, so wireless I/O or networking shouldn't be necessary (unless the network cable is going to be too long to deal with or you don't want to mess with sealing up the cable holes) Notwithstanding temperature extremes, temperature changes in themselves can be a big issue. I'd use a name-brand motherboard and power supply. Though this won't guarantee anything, you'll be less likely to get bad solders, which can crack under either extreme or frequent temperature variation or vibration. The latter is less likely to be an issue, but the former is a given in an outdoor environment. Also as I me
Can't believe anyone would want to ADD fans in this environment/deployment - use a FANLESS and cheap VIA board. The guy already said it didn't need that much power.
In my shop I have an old K6-500 system with 128MB RAM, 4.3GB hard drive, and an old left-over 24x CD-ROM in a standard AT mini-tower case. It has a cheapie keyboard, cheap mechanical mouse, and an old 17" monitor that developed an aversion to any resolution above 1024x768 and was therefore relegated to toolshed duty. The system runs Slackware Linux. When I do anything that will throw dust, I just cover it all with plastic sheeting. Granted, I do very little woodworking - my main interest is electronics.
Cat5e UTP buried in plastic conduit from house to workshop provides the network connection. I added limited, low-frequency oscilloscope functionality to the system with a sound card, xoscope, and a buffer circuit I built using a schematic thoughtfully provided by xoscope's author. This doesn't replace the 10mhz oscilloscope I got for $34 including shipping on ebay, but it does occasionally come in handy. Mostly, the machine is used for looking up part specifications and circuit schematics, and for chatting with fellow electronics hobbyists.
IMHO, it's not worth it to spend much cash on the fancy stuff proposed by folks here, for a machine that'll see maybe 8 hours of use per week at most. I just dug through the old parts bins (lovingly referred to by my better half as "that pile of junk") and found enough stuff to build a system, then spent about $10 extra on the xoscope buffer circuit parts I didn't already have in my electronic parts collection (lovingly referred to by my better half as "that crap scattered all over your workbench").
"Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
It's "grammar" you fucking retard.
a used imac and cover it with a beach towel when not in use. When it doesn't work anymore, buy another used machine for 50 bucks.
A lot of the suggestions seem like overkill to me. I use a Palm Tungsten C, which has WiFi and a web browser built-in (though you probably want to upgrade the browser). Slip it in a zip-lock bag, and it's water/dust/grease proof.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
It was a valid question. For some, Linux is "decent." For others, it's "deficient."
However, I don't see any problem in what I did. Because if something wrong gets posted, people like you will correct it. You played the Wikipedia editor in a sense. Otherwise, I would have gone on in life without knowing it. That's not the best way to spread information.
And don't shoot low with the avid overclocker insult. Sure I enjoy overclocking, but if I recieve absolutely no negative impact from it is it such a big problem? Maybe I desire to be in a cool room due to certain components being over heated even if they aren't overclocked. The 6800 GT's are extremely hot with their stock heatsinks, no overclocking involved. If I leave X running for days then play Xplane, I can expect some throttling. Thanks for correcting my post, however.
I use an older ibm thinkpad running linux in my shop.
The beauty of the laptop is that dust bunnies are minimized by keeping it closed. Also, no need for a dust gathering mouse because of the trackpoint.
Its easy. Buy a dust cover for your computer to protect it from dust and install a room heater to protect it from cold. If it gets too hot, install a small fan behind the CPU. As simple as that.
Umm, Cat5 should have no grounds, hence there should be no ground loops. It is a balanced system. This ofcourse assumes your cat5 is UTP and not STP. If STP is used, ground at only one end.
But yeah, fiber -> utp adapters are getting cheap enough that there shouldn't be a problem just using fiber. I've seen 10/100base-TX <-> 100BaseFX new for about $50/end.
Unless it's extra rainy or you have a wasp/hornet/bee problem, whatever'old box' you have will do the job fine.
If you don't have something with a serial port (for interfacing with instruments,etc) check the paper or find the used computer seller in your area and pick up an Enron liquidation Compaq/Dell/IBM P3 series computer for under $100. Use it for a year or two, then upgrade.
I've decomissioned working computers from the most unbelievable environments - imagine the inside of an industrial control computer - from a TIRE FACTORY. Don't fear sawdust when powdered vulcanized rubber and grit does so little.
*Get extensions for the monitor.kbd,mouse and stick the machine in a cabinet.
*Echo 'blow dust out of shop computer with fancy new air compressor' >> spring_cleaning_checklist...
You should be fine.
Why put a PC in your workshop in the first place, it will fill up precious space which could be used for tools or storage, and the money that you spend could be invested into large equipment like band saws, disk sanders and the like, if your only excuse is that you want to look at floor plans print them out inside and role them out, it's my experience that you will eventually want to scribble all over those floor plans with mark ups, and with regards to being on the net to order tools, it's usually better to actually have a physical look at the tools or materials your buying. My suggestion would be unless you are running a business out of your shed don't put a computer in there, waste of money and waste of precious space...
You can get a Panasonic Toughbook 72: Pentium III 700 MHz processor, liquid-spill-resistant keyboard, and some other rugged features (used) on e-bay for about $600. Naturally, for a few $$$ more you could get a new non-rugged pentium 4 machine. You could also get a less-powerful, but more ruggedized model.
If you make (or obtain) a basic, clear plastic enclosure, you could add considerable protection by placing it inside, and you could even run an external keyboard by passing its cable through the enclosure. You may wish to add one or more fans and an air filter to the enclosure. At the end of each work day, you could take the notebook with you. I'd also recommend backing it up off-site.
You could actually use a wireless keyboard and mouse (consider them disposable if exposed to the environment in your shop - but this will further save the computer from wear-and-tear. Actually, there are "roll-up" rubberized keyboards that might be perfect for your environment. You could also look for a ruggedized trackball (this might not be the easiest or most affordable item to find, but one could also be picked up later).
If you only need it to do those things, and don't need fancy colors and stuff, I suggest using an old 'luggable' or 'lunch box' computer. They're late-1980s/early 1990s, they are about 20 pounds, 'Portable' with handle on top/side (depends on make/model). I have a Compaq Portable III (see my journal) that I put a Network Card in (modem works too, I just don't use it, so it doesnt stay in) and an old SB16 compatable card with legacy CD-ROM drive. I run it in dos, have a graphical webbrowser - "arachne" (monochrome display, but graphical browser still), and use it from time to time outside in the cold and whenever I want to start a nice little discussion. From what I know, these things were used on construction sites when new, and I have dropped mine over 10 feet and not broken it (40 MB Hard Disk is on shock-mounts [1/2" springs] - worst that happened was my CD-ROM drive fell out of its hand-made cut out which didn't hold it in the first place). I have not tried with dust, but it should be able to take it. I know it sounds strange, but hey, if it works, use it, right?
Video Production Support
Try idotpc.com or another fanless solution. After getting tired of my parent's computers dying or making screaming noises because of cat hair in the fans, I bought them each one. They're great computers and perfect if you can live with a Via chip.
Ok, let's think here. The main idea is to keep the fans from getting dusted up. Why don't you just build an airtight box, cut a big hole for a big duct, with the intake leading to the outside. Hook up a big , filtered industrial fan or blower pushing a bunch of fresh air into the intake hole. Make another hole on the other end, again, with a filter. If you got enough air moving through, you wouldn't even need fans. Mount a cheap motherboard with integrated video to the bottom of the case, along with the rest of the stuff you need. You can just do the wireless with USB, no need to make a support structure for the PCI slots (but, if you're inclined, you could make all the mounting brackets and stuff, and build the ultimate gaming machine inside). Then, use a roll-up keyboard and a graphics tablet for a mouse. Seal the holes for the cables with rubber gaskets and silicone, and you've got a dust-proof, spill-proof and otherwise rather indestructable system.
My other Sig is
I would consider waiting for this to happen I am reffering to the predicted release of a $249 Mac in 2005. Apparantly there's about a 73% chance of it actually happening.
- A preemtive for the pedants out there - I know he wrote PC!
ôó
It depends how much you want to do. The whole closet thing and wireless keyboard is a good idea, but it is hard, since most houses don't have a computer sized closet next to the garage or basement. I would personally buy an old industrial computer. They are suprisingly cheap on eBay. You can get ultra-rugged sealed ones used for outdoor equiptment monitoring with a PII in them for chimp change, since they are large, ugly, and limited in expansion, nobody really wants them. As for monitors and keyboards, sawdust and metal shavings get EVERYWHERE anyway, so no solution is going to work very well. I would say pick up the cheapest keyboard you can, and get a waterproof covering for it. You can google for them, they are used for public computer kiosks, ect... The monitor is trickier. An LCD would probably be less prone to damge from sawdust, since you can seal off all the holes on it, unlike a CRT. However, as mentioned previously, sawdust will find its way in anyway, and the expense of replacing an LCD may be less than that of buying 4 cheap CRTs. If you wanted to put lots of effort into it, you could build a sealed plexiglass box for the monitor, and have a little poker to turn it on or off, and sealant of some kind around the holes where the power and video cables come out. If you don't need video, just text, I have heard that old DEC VT1000s are damn near indestructable. In the instruction manual, it even says to put the keyboard through your dishwasher if it gets too dirty!
"The problem is not knowing that you don't know something. I don't know Python or Perl, but that's okay... I don't try and hand out advice on those topics."
Problem is, that isn't always easy. There have actually been studies done on this. Quote from the abstract of the linked article:
Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.
I guess this kind of general problem applies to any Ask Slashdot, or Wikipedia, or whatever. Just keep doing what you're doing and all that, and it'll even out in the end. We hope.
you get water-resistant stuff. That way you can dump your equipment in a tub full of water to clean the dust off.
"All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
It's good that someone is perpetuating the ASCII art tradition. Trolls and spammers are looking out for our cultural heritage! Why do we persecute these valuable members of society?
A friend of mine asked me to take a look at her computer. She said the computer was unusually "quiet" and would reboot itself on occasion. I surmised correctly that the fan on her power supply was faulty. She was a chain smoker and apparently smoked a lot while working on the computer; not only was the power supply fan gummed up with revolting tar and nicotine, but the CPU's cooling fan was clogged beyond use, and the cdrom drive drawer would not open. This is the only computer I have ever worked on that died from smoking.
In reply to the above anecdote of stupidity, a reader sent in the following:
I've seen a computer die from smoking, too.
A customer came in with a dead computer, claimed it was under warranty, and asked if we could fix it. We had look at it, and before we even laid eyes on it, we could smell it. Imagine the stench of an overused ashtray times ten.
We looked at the yellow case (it was supposed to be beige) and the date of purchase (3-4 months previous) and goggled in disbelief that she actually had any lungs left.
"What are you doing with this computer?" I asked in total disbelief. It was at a taxi service. She smoked, the cabbies smoked, and the room was apparently only about eight by twelve. Smoking took place 24/7 in this place, and her fingers and the computer bore witness. We opened the case, and there were visible deposits of brown tar everywhere. The whole thing was gummy and slimy inside.
We had to tell her she was on her own. Naturally, she countered with the "it's under warranty" argument, but the computer was well beyond that. She left quite mad. We insisted she take her computer with her when she left.
All of which goes to speak on the need for keeping technology properly ventilated.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I saw 2 other comments that suggested Toughbooks, but without explaining their logic.
A lot of laptops built for the "outside world" are quite capable of handling temperature extremes, as well as dust and moisture. Most have sealed keyboards that can be blown out with a compressor, or simply rinsed off if stuff gets under the keys.
Laptop drives, while more expensive than desktop drives of similar capacity, are of course built for the rigors of a mobile environment. That includes vibration, thermal swings, and lots of spinup/spindown cycles. They should be fine sitting on a workbench in cold weather.
The rugged laptop screens are also built to handle temperature much better than standard LCDs. Older STN displays radically alter their contrast points with temperature, and even TFT units require special formulation to keep their usable properties over a wide temperature range.
The great thing is that perfectly usable rugged laptops can be found on eBay or elsewhere for a song. Since a lot of customers bid by specs (processor, ram, drive, screen) rather than by construction, the price premium of a rugged machine narrows significantly on the used market.
Since you probably don't need a battery, the main reason to avoid used laptops doesn't apply. If you can get one that's good for an hour or so, that's still useful for car work. Park the machine on the intake manifold with the PDF service manuals on screen, and a small USB camera recording video as you disassemble the engine. When installation fails to be the simple reverse of removal, you'll have a record of why.
The other benefit of laptops-as-desktops is that they simply fold up and sit on a shelf when they're not needed. If your workbench is anything like mine, you'll appreciate this. (And if you disable the lid switch, the sucker can remain powered on, feeding music to your workshop speakers, while on the shelf.)
I built a "box" under the bench specially for the PC, then stuck a furnace filter on the front and back "door". I used a rubber gromet from any automotive store that "self heals" meaning it closes back in on itself so it stays sealed. Works supprizingly well. Furnace filters (cheap ones) are only a few bucks each, and change them at the end of each summer. The monitor i did a similar thing to with plexiglass, and a filter lid on top. Power is always on, and a power strip is the control. Very simple, costed about $30 to make and is durable. The PC came from compgeeks.com for about $130 (p3-600 crashpaq), same with the monitor. Optical cheap labtec mouse, equally cheap keyboard. It's not hard to do... Just use your imagination. (and mine's in a machine shop for autobody work, so you can imagine how dirty my stuff gets :) )
...Now if only i could figure out the printer...
I wanna say get like from pricewatch a very old 386 and put linux on it LOL umm and uh yeah that way if something falls on the computer the damage wouldn't be alot.
Its nice to be important but its more important to be nice
Done it. Make a wooden case slightly larger than the computer you are enclosing. 2" clear each side, top and bottom, 4 inches in back. Door in front, use weather stripping to seal it. Run all the cords out the back, seal it with air filter material. Use one fan with an external power supply to draw heat out of the case( Whole project was 18.00 at radioshack. Most older LCD monitors will survive just fine in the dust. I agree with earlier posts about the keyboard and mouse. 14.99 will pick up a memorex spillproof/dustproof keyboard, around 4-8.00 for the optical mouse.
Big Keys Keyboard
I take a laptop into the Nevada desert all the time for GPS, Topographic software, etc. It is a very dusty envionment with hot and cold extremes. I used to use Itronix 6250's, and now use Panasonic toughbooks. The Itronix and Panasonic units are both sealed (the Itronix more so), have no vents for cooling, are in metal cases, etc. You can drive a 4000lb car over the Itronix! In addition the HDD's are gel packed for shock resistance. All of the ports are behind doors with rubber seals.
At any rate there is no better device for this environmant. Although they are severly overpriced new (8k plus) you can easily pick up a PIII on ebay for a few hundred buck. An older Itronix p266 can be had for under $100.00. They both can use membranes to go over they keys as well.
I used to have a computer in an area with no heating or cooling. I had problems with water condensation on the components as the computer would heat and cool itself. Solution: throw a few packets of silica gel in the case (don't eat them!) They're pretty much free if you just save a couple from shipping cartons, and they'll soak up the extra moisture.
I ran 12 famlies off of 6 cables out my window to my apartement building, and one to another house that split into many more and ran to another house, that ran to another house. The biggest problem was trying to get money from a few people. They sagged a bit in the summer and were fine in the rain and snow. The biggest worry was the cable guy that climbed the pole we used to bridge the apartement and house. After he finished is work he followed the cat5 maze around for a while and left.
Dios mio, man. The horse is long dead. Just. Stop. Kicking. It.
You've got two monitor solutions, CRT and LCD. The problem with LCDs is that they don't work in cold temperatures. Which leaves CRTS. The big problem with CRTs is the dust. You would absolutely need some kind of enclosure for the CRT.
Every CRT I've seen has a top that is all grill, for the heat to rise out of. It can get fairly warm up there (my cats liked to sit up there before they got so fat they tipped my monitor), and I'd imagine dust finding its way down through the grill will find much warmer areas around the tube itself.
Fine sawdust, the kind you have floating around in a workshop, is definately flammable. I've even heard that under the right circumstances, sawdust can actually be explosive. Do NOT let sawdust collect inside your monitor housing!
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
Now pardon me, I have to go bring up Hitler on a usenet discussion that is showing too much civility.
Try getting your hands on one of the older iMacs out there. The ones with the swivel-pivot LCD monitors.
That positional screen would come in super handy in a home work area like that. Gives you more freedom to work where you need to work and still see the screen.
Take it to your shed to work; take it back inside when done. A laptop is self contained, ruggedized and quite tuff without any extra work. Seems like anything else is just overengineering.
Put the system in a closet and duct the intake fans outside. Get one of the cover things they use for dryers to keep eeverything else out and your good to go.
if the building is going to get cold, as in -5 C as already posted LCD's are a bad idea, but also the battery that holds the fun little things for the BIOS die quite quickly.
We killed so many of the thin watch batteries, we eventually started to wire up AA's in series just because then were cheaper and more readily available.
Dude, just put it in a cupboard, run the cables out a hole in the botom, leave some cheap ass monitor outside the cupboard.
Had a set up like this in a factory that made nails and wire mesh, it was contolling the mesh machine, big welders, lots of iron dust floating around, I was ther 3 years and it never died, had a plastic cover on the key board though...
For those who wish to skip this long and tedious post, here is the moral: Use wireless to small outbuildings such as garages.
r icity%29
A few of the responses to the parent post were a bit confused about ground loops. A few other posts have suggested running cat 5 to the outbuilding. Having done some time working with non-profits in Africa, I have some experience with a networks involving cat 5 running between buildings, and can personally attest that this is not a good idea. Ground loops were one of many entertaining problems.
I won't repeat wikipedia's very short explanation of ground loops http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_%28elect
A facility that ran cat 5 between buildings lost up to 10% of the network cards and 25% of their hubs and routers each year to obvious surge damage. By obvious surge damage I'm refering to the melting plastic that amateurs can easily identify as electrical damage. In defense of those responsible for this installation, there was only one electrician in the province, and there were many confounding factors which could explain the high rate of electrical damage -- cheap second hand equipment, regular brown-outs, wasps nesting in PCs, wildlife eating cable sheathing, and so forth.
It is possible to ground these cables between builds, but I'd suggest careful consultation with a reasonably smart electrician. I'm not a smart electrician, so I won't mislead you with the details of how I've approached this problem. That said, you basically have to ground every conductor going from one building to another with nearly the same enthusiasm that you ground the power from building to building. That said, we greatly reduced surge damage in this scenario with lots of long metal rods, shoveling, and wishful thinking. Neither fiber nor wireless were options at the time - cost factors and the era (this was mid 1990's). I think we also replaced the CAT5 with coax, as it was easier to figure out how to ground. For good measure, you really should armor cable or use conduits when running cable outside, as rodents like to chew on it. This adds even more work to the project.
I think the moral of the story is: get a wireless router for internet in outbuildings, unless you involve a competent and professional electrician in the project. With wireless, you are not only protected from ground loops, but also protected from rodents sharpening their teeth on your cables. Fiber is still expensive, and doesn't solve the rodent problem.
My motto: "A cat is no trade for integrity."
You want a cheap industial grade computer and from you have posted you seem to know absolutelly nothing about cooling and pretty much any computer physics (if that's even a term). So the bottom line is that you are either going to have to drop between $2,000 and $3,000 for the computer of just forget the project and do your computer stuff inside or away from all the dust and particles that come with a tool shed. First of all you will have to opt for a hard drive that is designed for extreme conditions ( mostly extreme heat but cold too) and those are more expensive than a decent scsi. The second thing is that you will probably have an extremely limited choice of cases. The only thing that I could think of (relatelly inexpensive) is Zalman's 0db case and it cost about $1,000. From there on you will probably have to go with a lower speed cpu or prefferably a mobile one due to the lower heat produced. And after you are done with all this you will have a heck of a time finding a sealed monitor that can withstand a very poluted environment. Those cost arround $1,000 too. Not to mention that you will need a special keyboard and a mouse. Oh yeah and the monitor is really not a choice. A regular monitor would probably last not more than an year in a worshop ( if it is a metal shop that time is a huge over-estemate).
So like a said, save yourself some money and lot's of trouble and keep your computer at home or some other cleaner place.
Well I will probably pay for admitting this but I have 7 computers that make up my webserver, nameservers, firewall, build server, and file server all living in my unheated, un-airconditioned, uninsulated garage sitting on bench between the clothes dryer and the part I use as a shop for building small boats. When ever I open up one these guys to upgrade a drive or memory, I usually have to use a shop vac to clean out all the dryer lint, sawdust, and spider webs (lots of these, apparently they like the heat).
I have never had a problem with any these boxes, and most of them are over 8 years old. Most are HP Vectras (200 and 233 mhz), Compaq Deskpros (SFF, 450 and 500 mhz), and a Dell Optiplex (the oldest, its 60 mhz pentium)
The only time I ever worry is in the summer, it gets a tad warm out there, and my build server is the only one that really gets close to having issues, it uses the BP6 dual socket 370 motherboard that supports dual celeron CPUs, and it doesn't like to get warm (but it cranks in the winter)
Of course if you want anything that runs faster than 500 mhz, you probably can't pull this off, all them new fangled whiz bang machines is so damn fragile!
my old sig is obsolete, and I haven't come up with a stupid enough new one yet
I've done something similar, and it was just the opposite of what many here suggest. I protected the hard drive vent holes, the CD ROM, the floppy drive. But, left off the side panels. Blew off the dust daily - especially out from the power supply and the CPU fan. Most of the rest of the components survive rather well this way. Trick is just to keep it clean. Without the side panels, cooling is not a problem, and there's no need for aux fans. Just a thought. Oh, I did this with a Tyan P-3, no audio, TNT2 video, and a simple RealTek 8139c NIC. Worked fine.
Put the PC inside a cheap $50 refridgerator. Keeps it cool in summer, protects it from dust year-round. A small hole through the seal for each cable, sealed with whatever, keeps the thing sealed whilst allowing cables to run out.
You'd be lucky to find any cheaper integrated cooling/dust free enclosure.
If you did want to spend more, you could always put it all inside a glass topped cooler, monitor and all, so just a wireless keyboard and mouse were out on top. Plus the thing turns in to another available (albeit not that strong) work surface.
Put laptop in back window of house. Buy a pair of binoculars and a big ass long stick.
Note that most people just buy a new $9 keyboard when their old one craps out. The place I work puts Dells in the factory- they last about 3 - 6 years, but the keyboards last maybe 6 months before they're crapped up beyond belief. Dust, chemical, spray, metal powder, etc. Oh, and human chaff- hair, skin, misc fluids, etc... Do we buy expensive keyboard skins ? Only for the laptops, where the keyboard is the computer, and the Dell laptops are so very carefully designed so that anything that spills / drops on the keyboard goes RIGHT into the motherboard.
Keyboards break, unplug 'em and drop in another cheapo $9 keyboard.
Some ATMs are designed for outdoor usage, the "worst case" ATM I saw was simply mounted into a wall with absolutly no wheather shielding. It had to stand rain, snow, storm, and hail. Other Public Terminals are comparable. Both have to withstand really dirty fingers, cola, coffee, often also wheather, and of course vandalism.
On the inside, you often find an ancient major-brand PC, and in case of the ATM, some special hardware to dispose money. Exchanging or upgrading the PC or running some kind of terminal software on it (TightVNC, Terminal Services Client, X11 Server, ...) should be no real problem, the special hardware can be removed, and you end up with a heavy duty PC box with at least a build-in, shielded screen. With a public internet terminal, you also have a "bullet-proof" keyboard and a mouse replacement. Otherwise, add a sealed ("waterproof") keyboard and a cheap optical mouse. Try to replace the tiny PS/2 style connectors with some better, heavy duty connectors (4 pin XLR is the best, DIN-5 or DSUB9 should also do the job), using two adapter cables inside the box and new connectors on keyboard and mouse.
For the software side, try not to store anything on that box, but place all your documents on a fileserver in a more friendly environment. Small NAS boxes are available for around 200 US$. Have a replacement harddisk and an up-to-date image of the system available. Even better, avoid the entire harddisk and boot from the network (search terms: PXE, EtherBoot) or a small compact flash card with an IDE adapter.
Tux2000
Denken hilft.
If the computer's air intake fan is ducted to the outside, there will be positive pressure inside the case. Ergo, no dust.
Get a good used Panasonic Toughbook. I use one on my boat for navigation software. It's been doused by the occasional wave, toppled onto the cabin sole, fallen on, had food and drink spilled all over it, and never missed a beat. I'm sure it's pretty dustproof too. They're standard issue in police cars, etc. Expensive new, but used ones can be had for a reasonable price. There are several dealers specializing in reconditioning and reparing them, and selling parts for them. Well worth it, IMO.
The suggestion for a cheap X terminal was good too.
My stepdad has his home server located in his attached garage. He just used some steel and plywood shelving and sealed of the outsides with plexiglass fastened down with velcro (all the way around each piece of plexiglass) The enclosure is large enough (about 2"x4"x8") and the western Washington climate is temperate so overheating isn't really a problem.
He even went all out with a SCSI RAID array on an older model server, and I haven't heard of any problems at all. Also, the garage is his main woodworking shop, along with a little metalworking. He used a CRT monitor inside the enclosure, and mouse and keyboard (cheapies) are fed out onto a nearby workbench.
In sticking to the requirements - budget, and assuming box will be somewhat out of the way, I advise:
:)
1) Sit case on a block of wood.
2) Seal case with duct tape leaving the input and output vents clear. You will need to seal every thing like CD etc.
3) Go to autowreckers, find air filter housing, its (clean) air filter and its snorkle tube(at beast 3" diameter.)
4) Afix filter housing to wooden block, Route snorkle to computers air intake, notch end and 4 self tapers to case intake (avoids internals
5) Seal w/ silicon.
6) Tape a light weight flap over exhaust so it will will lift easily it allow exhaust air to escape, but settles over output when computer off.
7) dust seal over keyboard.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
since you won't be using it much in the summer, the box will probably be shutdown and thus heat is less of a concern.
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I'll assume that you build a cabinet to store this in, as many other posters have suggested. There's no shortage of ideas out there with different ways of solving problems with dust. I also recommend you get a dust collector that hangs from the ceiling. $100 retail (or more, if you're a brand snob) or build your own with a surplus fan and some furnace filters, but it will help massively with airborne dust.
Retail Air cleaner:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?De
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.asp
Homemade:
http://www.ronan.net/~wo
http://www.woodweb.com/knowl
There are more expensive ones, but I use the Shop-Vac one suspended between two floor joists in a basement shop. Works like a champ for a 12x15 space.
Pics of computers in woodshops:
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot34
If there is concern that it will get too cold in the winter while you are not in the shop (because you'll soon buy a heater for when you ARE in the shop), simply install a incandescent bulb or 2 in the cabinet surrounding the computer. It'll put off enough heat to stave off damage. A 100W bulb can easily heat a 6x8 outbuilding enough to keep plants from freezing (an insulated outbuilding, mind you). I've even seen pictures of small homemade wood kilns that used incandescent lamps as a heat source (since you want consistent low heat, not necessarily really really hot).
These ideas also generally assume some sort of desktop design. Laptops have less worries. Put it in a box while you make dust, take it in the house when you're not using it.
If still stuck for ideas, post something to a good woodworkers forum like Woodcentral as well. Someone has likely solved this problem already.
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
Use an older machine for basic web searching. Something that doesn't need a fan to stay cool. I've seen some 400MHz CPU's run just a giant heatsink without a fan. Try to avoid having any fans if possible.
Stay with a Pentium brand CPU for it's heat protection safegaurd incase dust buildup happens between cleanings.
Cut an old T-Shirt into pieces large enough to cover any case openings and spray a light oil onto the cloth to help catch smaller particulates that might pass through. Something like WD40 would do.
Get a desktop style UPS to help protect your PC from power spikes caused by workshop power tools. A model/brand that has a line "filter" or "conditioner" to keep the white and pink noise to a minimum.
__________________________________
Free your mind - Flush your toilet
They've been around long enough that a secondhand one should be affordable. They may be a little pricey, but they aren't just about protection from being dropped, they're highly water and sand resistant.
How about using a dirtbag to protect the computer? they look interesting...but I wonder about airflow.
The biggest problem was trying to get money from a few people. They sagged a bit in the summer and were fine in the rain and snow.
Heh.
My advice: get DamnSmallLinux . You can install that on the compact flash (or USB stick). You can install it to work just like a live-cd. That means no writes, (flash doesn't like to many writes). Damsmall has Rdesktop and VNC, firefox already installed.
A fanless mini-itx + compact flash shouldn't need fans at all.
Also get a Waterproof Foldable keyboard. There not expensive, and keep all the dust etc. out. Very robust
---
Works great, easy to replace.
Check out http://www.openbrick.com/ One of those, boot linux from a flash-card and voila: PC without moving parts! Add a cheap optical mouse, sealed keyboard and monitor and you're in business.
then you can use Design Intuition (http://www.gizmolab.com/software/).
Go ahead, call me troll, but check out the program, it's what any decent wood-working maniac needs. Easy (and I mean reallllly easy) 2D design, instantly translated to cool 3D views, complete with bill of material. And great printing options. What else do you need?
Whether the mac is a good machine (or a cheap option) for the wood-shed is of course another matter, but hey, check out the program first and bash me later.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
If your shop is also a garage, why not put a computer in your car and then park the car in your garage? (Doubles as mobile computer)
This thread interests me because I've been interested in the same sort of thing. I've heated
with kerosene and had computers fail from the black carbon emmitted from kerosene heaters. (The monitor card) I've had to periodically clean them with alcohol.
I have considered liquid cooling ($$$) or storing my computers in a regrigerator.
"Just buy a cheap PC... You would be surprised at the hostile enviroments a PC will live in..."
Like your bedroom.
Wrap the whole lot in cling film. Not dust will get in and I think you'll still be able to press keys on the keyboard.
It is better known as 'batteries'.
Hacked-up microwave on one end, parabolic dish on the other end ... just don't cross the beam ;)
:) )
(This probably wouldn't work in real life, but I used to play Sim City far too much
This is what I discovered.
Get older PC, place in area, turn off, cover with plastic.
when you need to use it, uncover, turn on, use, turn off, cover.
This method will last a very long time (years) then you can go get another $75 PC for the next few years.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Sorry for coming down so hard. I guess I was feeling cranky. And I overclock too. ::looks around to see if anybody's looking:: Mobile Barton 2500 oc'd from 1.8-->2.3ghz @ 1.6v. :)
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
Cheapest I found was ~£170 though.
Can be extended very far, i think 200m+. Not DVI though.
A blog I run for the wealth
In Korea only old people ... ohhhhh never mind.
I am running a commercial project for a vehicle using a Small EBX biscuit type board that costs £120. The board is a Nova Eden 733MHz and i choose to boot from a compact flash. It has everything you need on board and no need for heatsink fan thus allowing it to be completely sealed in a metal box.
Look into the fanless VIA Epia 533MHz mini-itx systems. You can build one of these in a closed case with no fans/circulation if you provide an external power brick for the power supply.
If you build it sealed with no floppy/cdroms, then dust would be a minimal problem. If you add these, you'll need external doors.
I don't know how much of this type of case you'll find on the internet ready to go, but you could make it your first project in your new tool room!
These machines are no power house and have relatively lame graphics performance by todays standards, but if all you're looking for are websites on how to do something in your shop, or suture wounds as the result of doing something wrong, this would suffice.
thyan you mister obvious.
now please tell me why the 12 shop PC's at a local foundry that I did some side work for had normal PC's at formam stations in the UNHEATED foundry floor that usually had at LEAST 1/8 inch of sand and metal shavings all over the inside work flawlessly for years that way?
in fact my friend there that own's the place said they have switched back to older computers from the late 90's because they last longer and certianly are built better than anything you can buy today... they replace pc's in the office almost every 3 months, the pc's on the shop floor, consumer grade compaq's, still run fine chugging away and running their DOS apps happily and they have no plans of replacing them.
they have one PC there that is running the Gas-cromatagraph next to the melting furnaces that required 2 of us to lift the case. It had at least 60 pounds of extra metal and sand inside it from their atmospheric "dust".
It has ran for 12 years now. temperatures reaching well above 130F in the summer and well below 20F in the winter.
Pretty much I ignore everything you have said. I have seen extreme evidence that tells me that you are dead wrong and from my own tests and experience in other locations, PC's are at least 20 times more durable than you let on.
the correct answer is buy as cheap as you can and do not worry about it the pc will be fine for a long time running in cold, hot.,cold, hot and lots of airborne dust and garbage.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
make great ones: loads in stock, or if you have a weird keyboard, send them one you don't need back (they don't work after high temp forming!) and they'll vacuum-form you some to fit. cheap, too. ric
You're being a bit negative. You added a collective zero to this forum... Use your inventive initiative to not reply if you have nothing to add.
I've seen several interesting solutions over the years.
1) In an open area on a mine site, the PC was built into one of those aluminium travel cases with just the essential leads passing through cable glands in the side of the case. It was carried off-site when anything needed to be done to it. It even survived a solid bump from one of those huge trucks.
2) An ancient PC at a cement mixing plant lasted longer than any of its faster, newer competitors. Despite having its internals clogged with dust its slower, cooler processor did not falter when the fans stopped. (well,... OK. It sometimes went a bit stoopid in the hot weather.) The roll up keyboard has lasted 3 years now and survives shaking, washing, and plenty of abuse. The 'real' keyboards would be lucky to last 3 months. The optical mouse makes tracks in the dust and has never missed a beat.
3) I have a single board PC in an aluminium case the size of a large novel in the garage. The CPU is pressed up against the case and uses it as a big heat sink. It's a 266Mhz machine runing Debian. (I have used Win98 previously) I move everything in and out of it through the network and so it has no CD/Floppy. I plug in a USB mouse and keyboard into it when I need to. It's not a gaming machine, but it saves me having to trudge into the house when I need to look stuff up. It doesn't use much power so I rarely turn it off. It cost me $100 through eBay.
4) Expandable PCs have been used at a few places where the company had a stock of the same PC. Use the network to move the data off the machine. Image a new one when the old one gets too hard to fix.
We were upgrading our machines at work from 233 to 2G XP boxes and I managed to grab a couple of the old machines I have running 24/7 in my workshop with tons of dust w/o too much of an issue I also have an old 13" B/W monitor and POS key/mouse Underclocking the pre-P3 to run w/o HSF also helped out with the fear of bearing death I tried booting on a Terminal CD to have no HD but too much dust so now I have just have an old 2G HD in there w/o the CD or Floppy I also have another identical CD imaged and ready to go wrapped up and duck taped inside the case if that one ever gives up the ghost Anyone who spends any money to put a computer in the workshop is crazy - just dust out the most decommissioned box and let it run Just think - any money that you spend on the 'puter is money taken from that nice DeWalt joiner that you've been looking at
(just don't knock it over)
about 6 months ago I bought an old junker Dell (200mhz pentium) for use in my workshop.
I kept up on a shelf - up off the floor which sometimes gets a little wet.
When the floor gets wet - I suspect the humidity approaches 100%
it's dead now (no signs of life at all). can't say for sure what killed it - but I suspect that extended high-humidity is probably a bad thing for computers
- soupmaster
For hostile environments. My dad used to work with the owner of it, a company and lifetime ago. He has built the operation all by himself, and it's quite impressive!
i predict rapture. cringley can shizzly my dizzle
Ethernet is *supposed* to be transformer coupled.
So, ground loops shouldn't be an issue. If you're worried about cheap hardware, open it up and look for the transformers. No transformers, use wireless or fiber.
a walmart laptop would run you a few hundred dollars (with windows xp). and could be just the thing you're looking for.
Keep it simple. Just stick an older PC case down in a somewhat ventilated cabinet on the opposite end of the room from the power equipment. (Do you really need the computer to be _right at_ the work area?) Older Pentium IIs and such don't run so hot that they can't deal with a little claustrophobia. Run your keyboard/optical mouse up top (a mouse with balls WILL clog in 5.6 nano seconds in a workshop.) A plastic dust cover for the keyboard is nice but I'm not using one in my shop. Sit the monitor up top. Network as required. (My shop is in the basement and my house is wired with Cat 5e but you can go wireless.) Unless your shop is really small you should have no problems. Couple times a year, visually check your case for dust bunnies. Vacuum as required. Total cost for me was $0, using by old equipment and a donated monitor from work.
for the machine itself, use a terminal. no moving parts means no fans to suck dust into the unit.
and an LCD for the monitor. both componants require little to no ventilation.
...make sure it is in good condition and such.
Try to minimize swapping discs. Maybe even tape over the floppy.
Go to a fat ladies store and buy a gargantuan pair of panty hose and encase the whole thing. The rear of the monitor too. It will still breathe but keep out shop dust.
Buy a rugged KB and mouse - or simply go to flea markets and buy old ones for $3 a shot.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
That is a bunch of crap. I have seen PC's covered in filth running just fine for long periods of time.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
(I build guitars/basses, furniture, pens, other tools, speakers, computer cases, LCD front and rear projection TV housings, etc.. my workshop includes benchtop plainers and jointers, table saws, 14" band saws, the real stuff)
DO NOT PUT A COMPUTER IN YOUR WORKSHOP.
I can't stress that enough. You do not want to have this kind of distraction around powertools. While I've never been hurt (not by luck, by being obsessed about safety) I've seen more than my share of ripped off fingers, sawed up bones from people mentally slipping or getting distracted by anything and everything. You DO NOT want this to happen to you.
A computer will distract you when you should be focused on the tools. If you want to double check a plan, you stop what you are doing to check it. You do not glance up at a monitor or a screen in mid cut. That's when your loss of focus will harm you. The stop/start, while inefficient and probably conflicts with your inner geek, is needed and there for a reason.
sounds completely unecessary. Just do your browsing in your house.
Replace the in-door computer with a laptop with wireless.
sheesh. Such obvious solutions......
Research before reply-
Brand new ruggedized tablets are available for less than $1000 US. Temps over 140F, below 0F, dustproof, rainproof too (I know this as fact- I HAVE ONE that I bought from isellsurplus.com). Actually, seems like it might be cheaper than building your own one-off tower.
Of course, previous posters have had a point; use dirt cheap boxen for as long as they'll last, and have them run an automted backup to your house PC network overnite (or during daylight hours- whenever you use your shop least). Replace as needed, and try to keep an eye out for whatever works best for you when bulk trash pick-up day comes around.
They have a built-in LCD screen, which defeats your whole idea of "you will have a heck of a time finding a sealed monitor that can withstand a very poluted environment. Those cost arround $1,000 too."
Special keyboard or mouse? No, no, no. Just look for used bulk lots on eBay.BR
I'm in the process of building my own "ultimate workshop" and I've already got the computing side set up. I'm using a disk-less workstation connected to a cheap 14" monitor. That monitor is also connected to a DirecTV box via a video to VGA box I got from a discount place for about $40. Added an old set of computer speakers, and I have a set up where I can watch TV (discovery channel in the background usually), listen to music (via DirectTV's music channels) or use the computer (X terminal into my home server). I tied all of this into one little box that I have a fan sucking air into through a filter. The box where I have this is is made positive pressure by the fan, keeping most of the dust out. I sealed it with a piece of plexiglass with magnetic tape around the edges. Of course, my workshop is already wired with Ethernet- as yours should be!
For the keyboard, I couldn't anything I really liked that was sealed (though I'm still looking), so I bought a $10 keyboard at Fry's- I figure I'll just replace it as needed. I'm using an optical mouse- less likely to get gunked up by the gunk on the workbench.
I tried to make sure that mothing I installed had any internal fans- those are the things most likely to get gunked up with dust first.
Of course, once things do get dusty, I have shop-air to blow them out (air-compressor outside, copper piping inside). Watch out- you can generate a lot of static electricity with compressed air- which is why I'll be grounding all the copper piping in my system (which should reduce it somewhat). Blowing out electronics systems is probably not the best idea, since there is usually some water in the compressed air- I've built in a condenser type system to try to get rid of some of the water, but it's not really perfect.
This is a project in continual change (as all proper geek type projects should be)- I'm trying to make it just as I like, but with the ability to change in case I want/need to reconfigure.
Put filters on your intake fans and make sure you have more air going *in* than out. This will maintain positive pressure in the case and keep all the other open places in the case from sucking in dust and such. With positive pressure in the case the only things getting in are through the intake fans, and then you just need to change your filters regularly. A PC with minor mods should live fairly well in the environment you talk about, particularly if you use a shop vac on as many tools as possible.
Tbh if your looking for a PC that cheap, how long would you expect it to last under NORMAL conditions?
What im trying to say is find one (maybe in the trash!, schools regualarly throw out working pcs) and use this, when it dies, think about simple ways of fixing it i.e. blow into the fan etc etc, if it doesn' work, go out and find a new one!!
Not like your losing any money really, and you dont need to buy anything either!
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
You don't say whether or not you will be using hand or power tools; the amount and type of dust produced is vastly differently.
Hand tools produce larger chips and shavings, and not a lot of dust. I think keeping the computer off and covered with a plastic bag or cover would suffice.
Power tools produce much finer residue. In addition to the computer, you need to be concerned about your lungs! Some wood dust is highly allergenic and can cause respiratory problems - two of the most common that a homeowner would run into are cedar and pressure-treated wood. Always wear a dust mask and leave the windows open, with good fan to draw air through the shop, or buy a dust collector and air filter (and use them every time you turn on a power tool). Collect the dust at the source, and you don't have to worry as much about it at the computer - a plastic cover should work here as well.
-Phil
PC screens are difficult to read when you are more than a couple of feet away, so you may want to consider getting a cheap PDA with wireless capabilities. Do some range testing, but you should have no problem setting up the wireless AP somewhere in your house and still have a connection from your workshop. You could use the PDA for browsing the web or displaying your drafting designs for your current project.
I hope you find a solution that works for your needs!
How about grammar instead of grammer (whatever that is).
Oh yeah, your should be you're.
If you're (see how you + are works?) criticizing someone's spelling, at least be able to spell correctly. It makes you like less of an idiot.
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
Get a cheap old junk machine and keep all of your data and stuff on your regular computer, then use your shop computer as a client.
Blow the dust out of it every six months and yer good to go!
For your health and comfort, spend some bucks on a dust collection system (1.5 HP with good bags or a canister) to connect to tablesaw, planer, jointer etc. Also, an air cleaner to take out the "fines" is important as well. The fines can get pretty deep into your lungs and do cumulative damage.
A healthy environment for you ought to be fine for a PC.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Instead of "what would you suggest for computing in a hostile environment on a non-industrial budget?", try "what would you suggest for computing in an environment on a non-budget?"
If it were me, I'd beg/borrow/steal an old PC or parts to build one, and try to make it cheap enough so a short life span is a non-issue. For example, rather than spend any money on keyboard protection, get the cheapest one you can find and accept that you may have to replace it every year. Even if you can't source a free one, it's not like you can't buy one new for $5 online.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Good plan or even better you could just get a boot eprom for your ethernet card and ditch the harddrive.
Another option would be to just set up a minimum system and use VNC to connect to a powerful computer to do your real work on.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Select a BTX form factor (maybe Gateway 7200XL, try Monarch Computers, or Puget Systems) system and +19in CRT (heat/dust/weather cover cowling can be heavy plastic sheet with duck/duct-tape, leave air-vent circulation space, use quality fans noise no problem ...) for in the shop. Be sure to use positive pressure venting/cooling on both BTX-CPU-box and CRT with air drawn from outside conduit/ducts with filters and positioning to prevent water, bees, bugs, birds, ... from cooking on your processor or in the CRT. Positive pressure will push clean cooler air from out side into the box and CRT which should keep most (maybe all) dust from (being sucked into electrostatic surfaces) building up on internal surfaces of the electronics. Keyboard and mouse dust covers can be found/made or cheaply replaced every year.
... freezing and extreme heat 100+ for more than a couple days in an off or on condition can cause condensation-corrosion/problems .... Just warm up the environment (gentle heater blower) or turn on the vent-fan for and hour or two before using (should release some of the moisture from surfaces to the air).
LAN/WiFi should support all external connections into the house for Internet access (unless only 56K available), and printers (temperatures, moisture, woodchips, and dust don't mix well with print jobs).
This should work for an all seasons solution (dust crt-screen often). All this should only cost about $50, your time to install, plus what you wanted to spend on a good PC anyway. Oh, the BTX form factor should handle heat better than the old ATX; However, you may want to put your air-duct to the front of the CPU-box to get the best cooling properties (ask the OEM/maker about the correct airflow in the box). CRTs and PCs handle heat/cold about equally well
Have fun
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
I have a shop PC for looking up things whilst working on my computers, cars, or other projects. It is simple -- a 300mHz PC running Windows 95, without a case, nailed with 16p nails to the bare studs. The monitor sits on a shelf above the workbench, the mouse is on a shelf as well, the keyboard sits on the bench. Ok, stop your cringing. But you know what? What more do I need? Really.
Think about it: What I need in the shop is something that can let me do Google searches, boot up fast, take abuse, and play MP3s so I have music. That's it. At 300mHz, Win95 flies and boots in less than 25 seconds. Since I'm only doing web searches, there's no real load on it. MP3s play fine in Winamp. Without a case, dust flows in and out without causing harm; having it 4 feet above the bench and mounted vertically helps tons. If it gets excessively dusty, a quick squirt from the air hose takes care of that. A 300mHz PC is cheap and simple to repair -- if something breaks, whoopity. No data is kept on it, everything saves or is pulled from the network, so if the hard drive chunks because I started it up in -20F cold, oh well.
Easy, simple, useful, like my wrenches, hammers, and other tools. No fucking around needed, and that's how my shop should work.
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If you are doing woodworking, invest couple hundred $ in to dust collection system.
:-) j/k
Get spill resistant keyboard, I have seen many types of those. rubber mat kind would work (easy to clean) won't have to type much in the workshop anyway.
Monitor is up to you, CRT may be too big for some shops.
If you are working with metal such as grinding; welding; milling; sandblasting etc
you may want to keep this dust away from your computer's components.
It will work long time even if you don't.
I would recommend Clear case if the price is not an issue.
in either case check the fans from time to time, to make sure they are still spinning.
dust environment will increase wear on fan bearings
blast the dust away from the components with air.
Your computer would get bored in there, it needs a friend like a printer to print templates, or a laser cutter
P.S. and don't forget about your own lungs
Dudes, you would be best served putting your computer in a well ventilated exterior grade cabinet OUTSIDE of your workroom. Here is the set up I use personally (sans PC):
1. Use a rubber grommet passthrough from the exterior grade mounted enclosure for the video feed to a CRT. LCDs don't like freezing temps (but if you insist on using a LCD panel make sure you use a space heater in the area that is temperature controlled and keep the temp above 50 F or take the monitor inside as you probably wont be working in your shop at those temperatures anyway).
2. Use a Touchpad for a mouse (this way nothing can clog a mouse ball or optical tracker LEDs).
3. Use a virtual laser/IR keyboard like this one:
http://www.virtual-laser-keyboard.com/
Best of luck to you.
Proven to work in our enviroment.-Woodshop. We tried old P3(500MHZ).- died in 6 months. (2 inches of sawdust pretty much killed it.) Tried Dell lower clocked P4.(1.2GHZ) - servived for 8 months inside of industrial cabinet. Travla C137 with VIA EPIA 500MHZ with IDE CF reader/512MB CF with W98. Location - open enviroment. Cost? $350 total. We are using it like normal desktop- You know, fat client and all. Since there are no fan, sawdust system accumates inside is about an inch.(No. we haven't done any maintenance.) We deployed about 40 of these (two years span)and there are less then 10 reported hardware related helpdesk request. So far, none died.
Here are a couple of points in addition to the parent:
Computer systems and their components are manufactured to published specifications, which typically include minimum and maximum operating temperature and non-operating temperature. It is safe to believe these specifications. It is not safe to ignore them.
We all know that components can be damaged by excessive heat. Less obvious is that they can also suffer permanent damage from excessive cold. Mechanical devices and circuit boards are always sensitive to thermal stress, but especially so when their materials are cold and brittle. You only need to break one trace to ruin a board.
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
You never turned them on?
They were special computers that didn't use electricity?
They were special metal shavings that didn't conduct electricity?
You're talking out of your ass?
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
Comment removed based on user account deletion
you are the one talking out your ass.
I ALSO have seen lots of PC's in Foundry and machine shop environments that have gobs of nasties inside and still work happily.
I strongly suggest you get a clue or at least some experience. I have not seen them as bad as lumpy but I have seen the fine dusting of sand and metal dust in a PC and it's still working fine.
almost ANY foundry will have one or two of these on the shop floor for the managers to check things. and they ALWAYS have gobs of crap inside them.
Pc's are not delicate.
Duh, you never heard of conformal coating? almost all PC's have it on the motherboard.
hell at the machine shop I deal with I simply spray the boards with a spray shellac after assembly and i KNOW they will not have problems.
and I know that many pc's back in the 80's and 90's had conformal coatings applied to the motherboards after assembly at the factory as standard.
I still see regular Compaq desktops in chemical pumping stations that almost every part is corroded and STILL work.
I am anonymous and I also agree with both of the above anonymous cowards. Why? Because we anonymous have to stick together.
I been toting around a small computer built with a Via Epia Motherboard. Seems real reliable too me. The heatsink got knocked off about 6 months ago, still runs the same, tote it everywhere and definitely ain't careful. Just add a HD and RAM.
PS. I skipped the Hard Drive, and since the case is small, I plug it into a bigger case with a CD when I need a CD, but most always a USB thumb drive or the net works for file transfers.
For some reason, this post made me think of something I haven't seen posted here, even with the talk of grounding Cat5...
Go for the laptop approach and use it as necessary...for one reason above others...you're asking for trouble running a a circ saw or table saw or what have you on the same circuit as the laptop. Unless you've got some great power conditioner, expect problems. High amperage machines and computers on the same circuit cause all sorts of weirdness.
just go to a local computer shop and find one that has a bargain/junk corner and pick up a pI/II for $5 dollars.
else you could grab an old comp off the side of the road since people get new comps at christmas and sometimes throw their old ones outside.
Heya,
Why not use a cheap thin client? The SunRay 150s have been discontinued now and you can get them fairly cheap on eBay.
If it was me I'd put one of my SunRay 150s in the workshop, run a CAT5 cable to my house, install the SunRay Linux software and boot off my main machine using those.
I don't know how international the system is but I would look at IP (Ingress Protection) ratings.
http://www.accesscomms.com.au/IP.htm This site has a good table showing how they work. I would guess you would be looking for something around the IP64 range.
My suggestion would be to build yourself a simple cupboard for your PC in the workshop out of plywood, sealing all the edges with a mastic sealent. A cable outlet can be achieved by clamping them between two bits of foam - go and have a look at the outdoor plug sockets in your local hardware store. Do something similar for the front opening to the cupboard. You could even add an IP68 swtich somewhere on the outside of the cupboard so you don't need to open the door to turn it on/off. Create something very similar for your monitor whether CRT or TFT.
Now you need to ventalate these sealed inviroments. I would get an inline extractor fan. See this to blow air from the outside in to the two enclosures. This should be the coldest supply of air available. Add a couple of outlets at the opposite ends of your cupboards, with a light dust filter over them.
You machine might run and little hotter than normal but I'm guessing your not worried about performance.
Generally speaking, any computer (even, cheap, old Intel P2s) are surprisingly durable even in "harsh" environments.
You're a woodworker? Build box for your PC with a door on the front (for CD/floppy/USB access) and a large square hole on one side. Leave plently of buffer space between the box and PC (4" on each side -- no science here).
Duct tape an inexpensive furnace filter to the "large square hole" side of the box. If you're ultra-resourceful (aka cheap) like me, you'll match the furnace filter size on your box to your furnance -- that way you can buy in bulk.
Get the cheapest optical mouse and keyboard you can find and a few cans of air.
Blow the keyboard as needed.
Change the filter as needed.
Pop the top off the PC and blow the inside once a year or when you change the filter. Build a similar box for the monitor but screw a small sheet of Lexan (Home Depot ~$3) on the screen side.
Paint, stain, decorate as desired.
-r