Woz, Others Ask Apple To Go Easy On Tiger Leak

tabkey12 writes "Drunkenbatman posts this impressive article with a pointed quote from Apple co-creator Steve Wozniak and 24 others from all parts of the Apple Software world, criticising Apple's stance against a 23-year-old pre-med student, desicanuk, who distributed a pre-release Tiger build over a popular Mac Bittorrent site. There's also an interview with desicanuk on drunkenbatman's site. (Original Slashdot article here.)"

Comments

Credibility

[Odo]

Posted by "Drunkenbatman". On "drunkenblog.com". Defending "desicanuk". Quotes people from "Delicious Monster", "DaringFireball" and "Unsanity". Submitted to "slashdot.org" by "tabkey12".

Two questions:

1. How do we expect to be taken seriously with pseudonyms like this?
2. How many /.ers didn't even blink while reading the intro?

Of course look who's talking; Odo, a fictional shapeshifter... <sigh>

Re:Credibility

[Stephen Williams]

Are you kidding? "Drunkenbatman" will look awesome on the guy's future Pulitzer Prize.

-Stephen

Re:Credibility

[HeghmoH]

I don't know about all of them, but Unsanity is one of the most well-known Mac software companies out there. Delicious Monster is pretty well-known too, although their fame is rather recent and it remains to be seen if it'll last. People must take names like these pretty seriously, because the companies seem to be doing reasonably well.

Re:Credibility

[Speare]

All this about letters from "Wozniak" to a company named "Apple."

Credibility requires context. Someone unfamiliar with any of those proper nouns will have zero context, so there will be zero credibility. Add context, and things start to fall into place. Not every business needs to have a respectable name like "Federated Usable Computational Devices, Inc." and not every person must be a Smith or a Jones.

Re:Credibility

[ceeam]

Oh, and the other side is company named _Apple_ and the issue about the computer OS named _Tiger_ (not DrunkenTiger, though). And I heard that in early XXI century they will have a hugest hardball company named (da-dumm!) MicroSoft!!!

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

2. How many /.ers didn't even blink while reading the intro?

What? You mean we're supposed to read the whole thing?

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Unsanity is certainly one of the more well-known Mac software companies.

The problem is they're not famous, they're infamous. Install most of their stuff, thenwatch your system kernal panic it's way into unusability. Assuming the massive number of application crashes before that point didn't give their poorly designed crap away.

When you're about to go to trial, you really don't want mass murderers publically giving you a big thumbs up for your actions.

The only app that's crashed on me since purging all remnants of Unsanity from my installation is Camino, and only on nightly builds that I compile myself. Andpurging Unsanity wasn't as simple as running uninstallers. Amazing what crap they left behind that you can only discover by looking over crash logs...

Re:Credibility

[thogard]

This is news for nerds. No more context is needed.

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeeze!

You'd think he was using "REAL" fake names like "Jeff Gannon" or "Talon News"
Give the guy a break!

Remember, it's not gay if you're the guy

Re:Credibility

[NardofDoom]

How do we expect to be taken seriously with pseudonyms like this?

If someone gives respect because of my name and not what I have to say, then I don't really care if they're not listening; they're not the type of person I want to associate with.

How many /.ers didn't even blink while reading the intro?

At least this one.

Re:Credibility

[PsiPsiStar]

Who would take a job site seriously with a name like "Monster?"

Re:Credibility

[EvilTwinSkippy]

As someone who goes by "Evil Twin Skippy", I can say that a lot of care went into the selection of my Pseudo. Namely, I forgot what my password was for "Yoda" and it points to an email account that doesn't exist anymore.

And people wonder why I insist on controlling the machines and domains that handle my email...

Hey, look at it this way, in 10 years who is going to remember what Odo was? It'll be like J.R.R. Tolkien characters were before they made all the movies.

Re:Credibility

[thedustbustr]

I had to go back and reread the summary to figure out wht he was talking about.

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone gives respect because of my name

No one's talking about names. They're talking about moronic pseudonyms that people CHOSE for themselves.

Re:Credibility

[CountBrass]

They should go after this guy: he signed up to a NDA and then broke it in the biggest way he could. Or are you trying to say it's ok to lie to get some software under priviliged circumstances and then distributing it widely despite saying you wouldn't?

Apple should ensure the guy is punished otherwise either a) other people will do just the same in the future or b) Apple will stop seeding developers and the losers will be Apple and it's users.

The guy deserves a spanking and *I* hope Apple give him one.

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's not lesbian if you're the woman.

Re:Credibility

[anagama]

I don't think anyone suggests there should be no consequences. Rather, that the consequences should be realistic. In other words, it is an unrealistic consequence to destroy this kid's future over an act which while wrong, is by no means a sufficient evil to justify a crushing punishment. I know this is a civil matter, but reference to criminal rules is informative. For example, if you steal a candy bar, you pay a fine, maybe do some community service. Why? Because in the greater scheme of things, it just isn't that bad. If you murder someone, you can forfeit your entire life (whether through long incarceration or execution). Why, because murder is really really bad.

Truth is, this guy is very remorseful. After the first article, I tried to convince him to accept a cash gift to help in his defense. He refused it and consistently stated he felt he had caused the problem for himself and he would have to deal with it himself, no matter what that meant (I tried several times to get him to accept a donation). For some people, simply be caught and called on something is a deep punishment. I think that's the case for this guy. A modest non-life-wrecking fine (one or two thousand bucks payable on an installment plan) would be more than adequate punishment. Destroying the future of a potentially highly productive member of society would be heavy handed and bad for everyone involved: the individual whose life is wrecked, Apple for the bad publicity, and society which will lose his potential services.

Re:Credibility

[drunkenbatman]

Are you kidding? "Drunkenbatman" will look awesome on the guy's future Pulitzer Prize.

Damn straight...

Re:Credibility

[Vombatus]

Not to mention his co-author, StonedRobin

Re:Credibility

[Anonymous Coward]

yea its not like he did drugs or something, those people are never remorseful...

The punishment rarely fits the crime anymore.

Re:Credibility

[Lord Flipper]

Regarding "Delicious Monster"

That's the guys behind the Omni Group (OmniWeb) heheh, Jobs was using their browser when he came back to Apple.

Meanwhile, Mr. Jobs looked extremely lackluster at the last SF Mac show. Really ho-hum. I wondered if it was his health, or the crazy shit Apple was pulling with the News 'scoop' sites, or what...

Now this thing with the kids and a relative handful of folks taking a look at what's coming around the corner, a little early. Jesus, yo Jobs, chill a bit man. We need you to last for a while, there's real work to be done.

Like maybe, fire a couple lawyers, and get a couple motivated kids to fix the fucking Finder. It's been around forever, and even under OS X, after a reboot, the menus hesitate about dropping, the beach ball spins if you ask it to do two things almost at once, etc. And those keyboards, you should sue the mofos behind those pieces of shit right now. Dreadful. Check it out Steve, the fucking keyboard is the tactile interface to the whole schmear, get it? I mean, come on...

Re:Credibility

[cosmo7]

It's almost as if Wesley Crusher, during an excursion on an unimaginably perfect planet, accidentally stepped on some flowers and was condemned to death.

(As if the threat of Wesley Crusher dying would create dramatic tension).

Woz is too much of an idealist

[prodangle]

As much as I admire Woz's idealism, I wouldn't take business advice from him!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

So he is down to earth rather than a hard-nosed corporate or megalomaniac idealist, but would Woz have done what Jobs did with NeXT and ended it up in the soup?

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a sad commentary on business in the USA. Heaven forbid we expect ideals from our business leaders.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I admire Woz's idealism, I wouldn't take business advice from him!

Let's see .. Wozniack is a billionaire .. and you .. hmm?

Let me see here .. remind me again why I should take advice from you over someone who's made billions of dollars? And before you blab something about how it was all Steve Jobs business acumen .. well if Woz was such a business dope he would have told Steve off and stayed in his job at HP instead of taking a mad risk and forming Apple with nearly nothing.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

you are right.

we should crush this insolence. Prove to the minions that we are as powerful and rule with an iron fist exactly as our enemies to the west.

He should be made into a public example. He posted software, the most henius crime of all.

Death by public impalement! I DEMAND DEATH by public impalement!

He did not commit a lesser crime like murder, rape ,battery or robbery.

he dared to violate a sacred EULA!

he must DIE for his heresy!

all you Copyright protectors can suck by cock. I flip you off and violate your copyright just to spite you.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Nexum]

Woz is not a billionaire.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[gl4ss]

yes, but that's not the point, the point is that if you continue doing this kind of shit then people will see straight through your companys intentions and when your company is largely dependandt on very zealous fans that buy anything you make because it is from you it's a bad thing to piss them off.

and then you have a company kick started on money made from making (_black_ hat)hacking tools for the phone system suing some kid that just posts things that people email to him- obviously if they had some values once about freedom to do things they don't have them now.

like, hello, wtf? if that's not spineless from a company that's trying to act 'better' than the competition then what is..

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, I wish I could end up in the kind of soup that Jobs ended up in with NeXT. A $400 Million buy-out which led to a boardroom coup opportunity in which he regained control of his old multi-billion-dollar company!

Please Lord, let me make a few mistakes like that!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

People are not fans of Apple because Jobs is a nice guy. He's not. He's infamous for his absurdly hot temper.

People are not fans of Apple because they are warm and fuzzy towards those who they see as a threat to their interests. They're not. This goes all the way back to the Apple ][ and the lawsuits over the Frankline computers which were designed to mimic them.

People are fans of Apple because they keep cranking out impressive innovations to the way humans and computers interact, and when at their best, sell really spiffy hardware that takes advantage of these innovations.

As long as they do that, most of us are fine with them being asshats.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Vollernurd]

Woz is only wealthy because Steve Jobs found a good way to sell his product for him (well, that's the source of his original pile of cash). They worked well together on the Apple computer and Apple II, that's all. It sometimes happens that the brains behind a product only makes money on it because someone else was market or business savvy enough to sell it well. It helps that it's a good product too.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Woz never ran Apple. Consult him on hardware design, but not on management, legal strategy, marketing, etc, etc.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a little more to it than that. Mike Markkula, who provided Apple's first funding, and Mike Scott, who was Apple's CEO from the founding through the IPO had a lot to do with it, too.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

"Company ABC is magnanimously dropping their high profile case against individual XYZ"

is simply code for:

"Some idiot fucked up the paperwork and a random legal clerk is getting fired for it. By the way, what do we tell the press?"

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that hockey puck mouse is BY FAR the greatest innovation in computer history. It even has bi-directional force feedback when I throw the fucker against the wall.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[koreaman]

Please name one thing Apple has innovated, in the past 3 or 4 years, besides eye candy or "prettiness".

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

"Woz is only wealthy because Steve Jobs found a good way to sell his product for him "

No, Steve Jobs is only wealthy because Woz figured out how to create an elegant personal computer.

There are a lot of smart people in the world.

There are a lot of people who are good at selling.

Without Woz, there is no Jobs. Without Jobs, there is no Woz.

There are equally responsible for Apple, along with about 3 other people who you've never heard of.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[eviltypeguy]

An interface for MP3 players that "doesn't suck" (click-wheel) is one thing.

Expose desktop window management, etc.

Of course I could name lots of other things, but you would consider them "eye candy", which sometimes is every important to the overall user experience...

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[koreaman]

OK, I'll give you the MP3 interface. And I have no idea what you mean by "Expose desktop window management."

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

To us ACs, anyone with enough cash to buy a chicken sandwich for lunch is a billionaire.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Short Circuit]

Go back a little further, and you'll see that they're the ones who put USB on the map. We'd still be using PS/2 keyboard and mice, parallel-port printers, and serial modems.

Unless high bandwidth was needed. In that case, you'd have a proprietary SCSI card in your system that your scanner connected to.

Instead, we have 400 Mb/s transfer rates with pocket-sized external disk drives and the ability to plug in most of our peripherals into a single USB port on the computer by way of a hub.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[double-oh three]

Partially because he gave a lot of what he made to charity.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[paganizer]

I have to disagree with that, AC.
There are lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of excellent valuable ideas, concepts, things being made.
If you don't have someone to sell your idea, concept or thing, you are not going to make any money.
I know. believe me, I know.
The only way The Woz would have made a pile of money off the Apple without Jobs, is if he was lucky enough to have another Jobs-type stumble across him.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

He's still richer than you are.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be jesting. Apple certainly did embrace USB, but their market share is fairly irrelevant and did little to put USB on the map. USB was a consortium project initiated largely by Intel, and its present adoption is due to PC OEMs. Look at the much less successful IEEE1394, which Apple spearheaded into the market as FireWire. It's just barely starting to become ubiquitous on motherboards, despite Apple's adoption and the success of the iPod.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/expose/

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

as far as expose goes, find a box with os x panther. press f9, f10. or f11. usually people stop what their doing and ask how I did that, that its so cool, etc. f9 tiles all the open windows, letting you click on one to bring it to the front. f10 tiles windows from the up-front application, and f11 shows your desktop. get a multibutton mouse, program these keys to it, and your work rate will increase 10 fold.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

I always find it odd how people have this "warm and fuzzy" feel towards Apple, as if they're a company that really cares more about their users than say, Dell or HP.

Newsflash folks - Apple is just another computer company that wants your money. The warmth and fuzziness you feel is all marketing that you've fallen for....

Maybe you like the style of the hardware, or maybe you enjoy using OS-X, but that doesn't change the fact that Apple is trying to financially ruin some kids who made a mistake.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[toddestan]

Expose desktop window management, etc.

Expose is pretty spiffy, but all I see it as is something to make up for the lack of a taskbar, as seen in Windows, Gnome, KDE, etc.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Short Circuit]

Very few peripherals were available for USB until Apple released a USB-only system. Then peripherals started showing up, and PC adoption picked up.

FireWire hasn't seen the same success because, given the choice, hardware developers preferred to go with the cheaper-to-implement USB specs.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[paperclip2003]

>People are fans of Apple because they keep cranking out impressive innovations to the way humans and computers interact, and when at their best, sell really spiffy hardware that takes advantage of these innovations. I don't agree: Apple and Microsoft have never been known for "innovations" contrary to what their marketing departments tell you. Innovation has become a marketing term for reusing someone else's idea and repackaging it with your brand name. Innovation no longer means inventing something. Apple has just been good as of late at puting together things (applications) with their hardware and OS that people want to use (iLife). These Applications don't do anything new, but Apple has done the smart thing and packaged the things that people need and want. I love the Mac and it is a good computer and I use one quite a bit -- it is not new or original. I have not seen it do anything that was not done before in the last 30 years. Jobs has done an outstanding job at marketing and packaging, this is evedent because the people that hated Apple in the late 90's during it's financial troubles are crowing about how good Apple is now. If Jobs had not come back to Apple, it would have become the Commodore of the late 90s and been extict. -R

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Ohreally_factor]

If I could tell where the quote ended and your response began, I might have actually read your post.

Formatting. It's a word, look it up.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Couldn'tCareLess]

And I have to disagree with that, paganizer :-)

One person has a great technical idea but no clue on selling, another has great business sense but couldn't rewire a plug. They combine, form a team and get rich. Amen.

To paraphrase you: "There are lots and lots and lots and lots of excellent business people able to sell valuable ideas, concepts and things. If they don't have someone to have an idea, concept or thing then they are not going to make any money.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Ohreally_factor]

Firewire is also overkill for many applications when USB is good enough, so it's not surprising that the majority of manufacturers have dragged their feet.

A large part of Apple's strategy has hinged on multi-media. They've bundled (and sold) applications that require or greatly benefit from firewire. Not many video cameras have USB output.

On the other hand, there hasn't been much demand on the PC side for firewire. Those intrepid enough to dare the shoals of really bad video editing software could be expected to add a PCI firewire card.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[tyrione]

It isn't a 50/50 balance between technical skills and vision.

It is more of a 70/30 where you get Vision/Technical balance. One of the best examples of that is Microsoft.

DEC is one of the best examples of this where it showed that without the Vision all that brilliant technology went into the shitter.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Idarubicin]

The only way The Woz would have made a pile of money off the Apple without Jobs, is if he was lucky enough to have another Jobs-type stumble across him.

The only way Jobs would have made a pile of money off Apple without The Woz, is if he was lucky enough to stumble across another Woz-type.

...And around we go again....

There are a lot of people in business and marketing who are good at their jobs, but not making millions (or billions) of dollars. Similarly, there are a lot of technical people who are good at their jobs, but not designing future household-name products from their garages. Wozniak and Jobs both seem to stand at the very small apices of very broad pyramids. Having the best of both categories come together is a rare thing indeed.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[good soldier svejk]

Neither would have made a dime without Mike Markkula. Jobs most important accomplishment was bringing Markkula on board as Apple's first President. Markkula was a technical wizard, a marketing guru and an industry insider. And as Johnny Appleseed, he was an innovator in freeware.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[cayenne8]

"Expose desktop window management, etc."

I know most of this is due to it being 'new'...but, I just recently upgraded to Panther...and find Expose to be fairly annoying. I'd much rather have multiple desktops like most Unix variants...easier to have applications sorted on destops and switch between desktops..and just alt-tab between applications.

I'll keep playing with it...but, is annoying to have all the windows whisk away when my mouse accidently wanders into one of the corners of the screen...

:-)

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

So if Bill Gates told you to use Windows, you would do it?

What the hell, this cant be the Anonymous Coward I am thinking of!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the hot-corners for Exposé are very annoying. So turn them off.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy didn't make a mistake, at least not yet until the judge decides he made a mistake. Apple's on a witch hunt by setting an example to others.

Isn't it strange people have loyalty to some corporation as if they owe it something?

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[myov]

Mike Markkula, John Scully, and Michael Scott?

(Scully is stretching it, while I really had to look for Michael Scott)

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[LuSiDe]

Wozniack is a billionaire .. and you .. hmm?

Fallacy: Argumentum ad crumenam

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Very few peripherals were available for USB until Apple released a USB-only system. Then peripherals started showing up, and PC adoption picked up.

Very few peripherals were available for USB until Microsoft released Windows 98 with semi-decent usb support. Then peripherals started showing up, and PC adoption picked up.

I'd wager that Win 98 had a much bigger influence on usb adoption than the iMac.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[paganizer]

I think what we might have here is the fallacy of equality raising it's head again.
Steve Jobs was NOT just another person in business and marketing; he was a business and marketing genius.
Woz was/is also a genius; but Jobs could take ANY half-way decent product and make a mint off of it, While Woz and the apple required a genius, not just someone "good at their jobs", to start the personal PC revolution.
Jobs would have done well with a decent product of any description; I don't think Woz could have done well without a top-level business wizard.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[stor]

Yeah but Jobs is a wanker. Woz is a nice bloke and a geek.

Cheers
Stor

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

it was all Steve Jobs business acumen

"Sam, please don't use the word acumen."

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Maserati]

1. Go into System Preferences and turn off the hotcorners for Expose. Somebody set it that way, that isn't the default in Panther. The default F9-F11 are very handy and quite unobstrusive.

2. There is at least one good desktop manager for Panther, try a search at Versiontracker.com. I used one for a while but decided Expose met my window management needs better.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

You got it.

Woz is a millionaire and to this day a good businessman (he helped bring the T-Mobile Sidekick (nee Danger HipTop) to market, for example), but above that he is an upstanding guy and incredible philanthropist. I doubt that there are many things that he couldn't afford to do if he wanted to, and I'm sure he's found happiness in his philanthropic pursuits. Just read his site for proof of that.

There is a reason that this man is considered a guru for engineers around the world, including those who may even have more money than Woz himself does. We should all do so well.

And just to cut off the Bill Gates fans before they get started, Woz never sacrificed his sense of humor or his ethical responsibilities just to stand in anyone else's way technologically or financially. If there could only be one clear example of the opposite of selling out, it would be good ole Woz. Good on ya, Steve!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

I am using Windows right now. I haven't owned a modern Mac in almost ten years, and I feed my family with money made from supporting Windows and linux machines. Finally, I have used Expose extensively on clients' Macs.

Expose beats the shit out of taskbar-reliant GUI equivalents. Without using it for everyday work, you just can't have an understanding of how powerful it is, much like many of Apple's exclusive behaviors that are poorly emulated (if at all) in other GUIs.

My next PC will be a Mac, just because I think it would be a kick in the pants to be able to have something so damn useful around the house. I'm looking forward to it.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Anonymous Coward]

Woz is a millionaire and to this day a good businessman (he helped bring the T-Mobile Sidekick (nee Danger HipTop) to market, for example)

And Paris Hilton, for one, is very grateful for that!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[goatan]

People are fans of Apple because they keep cranking out impressive innovations to the way humans and computers interact, and when at their best, sell really spiffy hardware that takes advantage of these innovations.

So Microsoft has fans because they are inovative to

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Zork the Almighty]

he dared to violate a sacred EULA!

And an NDA, I think they kill you twice for that one.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist

[Amiasian]

Virtue: A Mac OS X virtual desktop pager. Works pretty nicely for me.
Disable the window activation in the Expose pref pane, as mentioned by the above commentators.
Boom. Best of both worlds.

Intellectual Property

[uq1]

This is intellectual property of Apple, and should be treated as such.

He pirated software, he should pay the penalty.

No sympathy here.

Re:Intellectual Property

[know1]

it's not the fact that he pirated software, lot's of people do that (not that i'm defending it, before the flames begin) it's more the breaking of confidentiality with his employer that should be the issue here

Re:Intellectual Property

[mirko]

He distributed non-ready software : in other words, his Tiger distro is already obsolete.
I suggest the following :

1. Apple folks leave him alone and eventually revoke his ADC membership
2. They begin a reward scheme, randomly offering thingies (.Mac, softs... : things that don't have much material value -software is easily reproductible- but that people will like to show off) to some clients so that it will incitate others to buy more stuff from them
3. They get a nicer image
4. They profit

Re:Intellectual Property

[jonathanduty]

I agree except that his fault isn't that he pirated software, he gave away something that wasn't his and he broke several legal agreements I'm sure he had with Apple. It was a very stupid move on his part and I'm sure he will pay legally and professionally. Would you ever hire someone with that on his record?

Re:Intellectual Property

[Paradise Pete]

it's more the breaking of confidentiality with his employer that should be the issue here

He doesn't work for Apple. He's a medical student.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exatly the problem.

People get a untrue view of Tiger becasue of his unlawful acts. They associate Tiger with a beta and decide to not buy it.

Apple looses.

Re:Intellectual Property

[clarkcox3]

The problem isn't that he pirated software--Everyone and their mom does that. The problem is that he broke a contract. Period.

He signed something that says "I will not do that"; Then he did "that". It doesn't matter whether "that" is distributing software, selling stock, or hopping on one foot through a crowded subway. He agreed that he wouldn't do it.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

He still entered into a contract with Apple, and agreed to a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Myuu]

Normally I would tend to agree with you, but I think Woz getting involved brought out another point to me.

The fact is that while Woz and Jobs were this guy's age, they did the same and a lot worse crap, blueboxing, drugs, etc. Look at where they took the world. Apple, the company that is supposed to be about going against the grain, is not living up to itself. In addition, by them suing this guy, they are holding back somebody that could have done a lot of good for others.

I think Apple is just feeding the fears that, as a result of the success of the iPod, the company is changing from what it used to be.

Re:Intellectual Property

[fitten]

Then this simply means he may be guilty of two crimes instead of one (software piracy and breaking a contract).

Re:Intellectual Property

[LurkerXXX]

Even worse, he's going to be an M.D.

Would you trust your doctor to keep your medical information confidential when he has no problems breaking written contracts of confidentiality? I'd never want to be a patient of someone like that.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't pirate software. He distributed a private beta OS illegally, breaking an NDA and violating copyright. Piracy implies that money was exchanged.

There are some not so subtle differences between what he did and piracy.

Pirate: Makes illegal copies, generally with pirated packaging, and sells them for money.

Warez Kid: Makes illegal copies and gives them away for free.

He's a warez kid. The difference is that a warez kid isn't stealing from the person who recieves the illegal copy, or selling it as a legit copy, just stealing from the author of the work.

In that respect a warez kid has done less damage to the population at large, but just as much, if not significantly more damage than a pirate, to the owner of the work, since the distribution audience can be unlimited, whereas a pirate is only giving it to people who pay him.

l8,
AC

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition, by them suing this guy, they are holding back somebody that could have done a lot of good for others.

Given his original actions and his actions after being discovered, perhaps he'd do more harm than good in the future.

The world needs just as many doctors with shaky ethics as it needs lawyers with shaky ethics. We've got more than our fair share of both already.

Re:Intellectual Property

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Or:

1. Rain hell on the moron dumb enough to get caught.
2. People take your NDA seriously.
3. You reinforce the image that you are working on stuff so valuable you are willing to go to court over it.
4. Profit.

Perhaps you have never worked in a technology company. You walk out the door with a prototype, and it shows up out on the street, you are going to get sued. Unless you work for the company. Then you are fired, then sued.

Embezzel the company for a few hundred thousand dollars, steal laptops, get caught buying hookers and drugs with company money, they let you go quietly. They often don't press charges.

But you compromise, or come close to compromising, the crown jewels, they have to tear into you. It's like defending trademarks. The only property they own is what they are willing to defend.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

Temp position at IBM for 1 year doing circuit design for test for foundry contract with Nortel. $72,000

Signing NDA before they let me out of the Lobby to show me around. $0

Being escorted off the premises by security when I gave my two weeks notice. Priceless.

(well actually it wasn't priceless it was two weeks of pay without having to go to work.)

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. The ramifications of leaking patient data are considerably more severe than those of leaking software.

But then, chances are you've been the patient of a doctor that's fornicated with one or more of its patients, disobeyed traffic laws, and lied to their spouse(s) about affairs. Egads! I bet they sold your data to a drug company when they found out you had herpes.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

None here either.
Apple should hammer the fool into a weeping pulp.
OS X is not Free or Open Source software, and making examples will drive that home.

Re:Intellectual Property

[dasdrewid]

Yeah, but they didn't get caught. While that sounds kinda stupid on the one hand, it makes a huge difference on the other hand.

The guy who wrote the bittorrent protocol is a brilliant man who wanted to do something new and amazing. This guy just wanted a free copy of OS 10.4. He's not exactly a developer, nor is he breaking the law in an attempt to start a revolution. He's more of a petty theif that just didn't feel like paying for something than the wild revolutionary.

We respect the merry pranksters and absinthe chuggin bohemians. We don't respect the junkies on the sidewalk and the stoners working in the back of McDonald's.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, he didn't sign an agreement. His friend signed that agreement, broke it, and this guy profitted from that. Even so, he still was a party to that original breach of contract and is thus as guilty as the other guy.

Re:Intellectual Property

[localman]

Sure, and I think that the damage they do to him should exactly equal the damage that was done to apple, to be fair.

What was the damage done to apple? Are they losing sales? Howso? This is a beta release and is most likely to just stir up more interest when the product is released.

Even if they could somehow show lost sales, I'd like them to calculate the value of those lost sales (specifically from this leak) and then give me the percentage of damage against Apple's net worth, then factor it to this Canadian kid's net worth. They'd end up suing him for $10.

The problem, as I see it, is that we've got into a mode of having ridiculous punishments for small crimes. I could go on ad nauseum with examples, but I'm sure you can think of your own.

Cheers.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

let's not forget that he shouldn't even had access to said object in the first place (does a free ADC account give you the right to get Tiger betas, or do you need more access? (which BTW, is included with the Tiger dev kit, 1 year dev level upgrade)

Also, this guy didn't realize that he wasn't supposed to do "that" because he never even read an NDA (yes, there is one for the free ADC account) from a company that is known for being quite protective of its secrets.

I just remember going to a free developer seminar recently, regarding Tiger. ADC is free, the seminar was free, and there was even lunch. But at the begining of most if not all of the little classes, the presenter did mention that these are covered by the NDA we all agreed to before signing up for ADC. If there wasn't an NDA, some of the meat of Tiger would have gotten out by word of mouth, just by ADC users bragging to non-ADC users about what they saw. I mean, there's more to things like CoreImage than meets the eye. The frameworks have some genuinely interesting stuff that can't be talked about here.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Himring]

He signed something that says "I will not do that...."

You've never been deposed have you? There is humanity and then there's law. There are people, and then there are lawyers. Ever sneezed and worried what it'd do to you in court some day? Go through a trial ... afterwards, you will....

People weren't made for the law, but the law for people. This is something that isn't true in reality, but should be. Lawyers are killing society. Don't encourage it....

Re:Intellectual Property

[clarkcox3]

Nope, he didn't sign an agreement.

Yes, he did. He had an ADC account. In order to get one, even the free one, you must agree not to distribute the Apple's software.

Re:Intellectual Property

[clarkcox3]

(does a free ADC account give you the right to get Tiger betas, or do you need more access

If someone else transfers an extra seed key to you, then yes, you do get access to pre-release software. However, there are very specific circumstances in which a seed key can be transfered. (this isn't one of them)

Also, this guy didn't realize that he wasn't supposed to do "that" because he never even read an NDA

Then he shouldn't have agreed to it. Plain and simple.

Re:Intellectual Property

[ReelOddeeo]

The problem, as I see it, is that we've got into a mode of having ridiculous punishments for small crimes.

The problem, as I see it, is that we've got into a mode of having ridiculous punishments for small crimes where the victim is rich, or a corporation.


Now if all small crimes had similar (ridiculous) punishments, I'd lave less problem with it, but still some problem.

Re:Intellectual Property

[snuf23]

Apple (at least the business side) hasn't had that fun-lovin geek spirit for a hell of a long time. This has nothing to do with the success of the iPod.
Jobs is and has been a cut throat businessman for ages. Apple is a big company and it's legal arm is very protective of Apple IP.
If you want warm fuzziness, look to Wozniak. There is a reason he's no longer a big part of Apple. If you want business and market sense that has allowed Apple to exist as the only viable commercial alternative to Windows based PCs, look to Jobs.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Nikker]

One thing I don't understand is why is Apple giving a blogger with no intentions to write software for them a peek into a new OS?

Isn't that kinda like GM stopping by a highschool telling the kids not to say anything before showing them a sports car?

I don't see why they would do something as stupid as that. /. has brought up a good point, if you and I sign an agreement and I forefit where does the line get drawn? The law provides us with way too much leeway in terms of how much we can get for breaking an agreement.

Now I know many will say they need these laws to keep their business safe. Well maybe if the laws were changed you would think twice about giving your information out. Then again you may think and find that the information you have isn't really that good/important and there is no/acceptable risk giving it out. What this does is introduce the element of risk. Nobody has to determine risk any more just hire a bunch of lawyers and sign evreything, its like a the American motto now a days.

I think what it is doing is making businesses lazy and also from a mental point of view is damaging them. They spend all of their time in a 'box' blind to what evreyone else is doing with the feeling of confidence that no one else is doing the same thing. But there is no guarentee that they are unique and get slaughtered when time to market hits because evreyone has the same intentions and ideas as you.

So I do think this kid should be punished by not being alowed to be part of privilaged information at least from Aple anyway, and possibly a small fine (in the order of a couple thousand) but I do in part feel it was Apples stupidity that gave this kid the knowlege in the first place.

Re:Intellectual Property

[node 3]

This is intellectual property of Apple, and should be treated as such.

He pirated software, he should pay the penalty.

No sympathy here.

Few are arguing that there should be no consequences. The argument is that the consequences are extraordinarily excessive.

No sympathy? OK, asshole, turn yourself in to everyone whose IP rights you violated (c'mon, you expect me to believe you've never, ever violated someone's IP rights?) and ask them to ruin your life both financially and professionally.

If you are not prepared to do that, then SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU HYPOCRITICAL ASSHOLE.

Re:Intellectual Property

[node 3]

The guy pirated a piece of software anyone can buy for $500. This isn't some top-secret prototype. That's the whole point. He's being treated as though he absconded something that to be publicly available would damage the company.

Go to http://www.apple.com/macosx/ and you can learn all about Tiger. Go to http://developer.apple.com/ and you can sign up to buy Tiger today.

Tiger is for all intent and purposes for things related to this case, public. It's still "private" as a technicality to prevent Microsoft and others from legally copying Tiger's non-public features (and there aren't really any) and to keep pre-release quality software from damaging Apple's reputation.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Vellmont]

In your fantasy this guy took some super-valuable prototype and sold it to xyz-corp who beat Apple to the punch. In your fantasy, I'd agree the guy should get sued for millions of dollars.

Unfortunately, this isn't your fantasy. In real life he traded beta software anyone can get (and is probbably already traded like mad within development companies). No one stole any crown jewels. No trade secrets were taken. Please stick to reality when talking about actual court cases. Reserve fantasy for your fiction book writing.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Anonymous Coward]

It is obvious one should not give out medical files.

In this Apple Developer thingy case, the guy didn't read the (for all appearances website-standard) agreement before clicking I Agree. of course, you've NEVER done that, and never unknowingly broke one of those agreements thinking your action was ok.

Re:Intellectual Property

[LurkerXXX]

Yeah, who'd have ever thought that a commercial company who sell's their OS as part of their buisness model wouldn't want it widely distributed for free. I'm real sure he didn't know that.

Re:Intellectual Property

[PintoPiman]

Apparently this was not a "written contract" as much as an "Agree/Disagree" situation on the ADC signup with a bunch of legalese to scroll through, EULA-style.

I've never signed up for an ADC, but that's what TFA says, and I'll believe it until it's demonstrated otherwise.

Ignorance has never been promoted as a valid defense for contract-breaking, but let's call a spade a spade here and dispense with the over-dramatic picture painting.

Re:Intellectual Property

[vranash]

Yeah, moreso when they find out YOU gave it to them :) Let's seem 'em try and explain *THAT* to their spouse :)

Re:Intellectual Property

[MacFreek]

He didn't actually sign it. He problaby did get to show a few (licence + NDA) agreements and just clicked OK, before sharing it with a couple of friends.

Now, do you read every licence you get with your software. I mean EACH AND EVERY ONE? I did read it about five times. And about 500 times, I just click "Accept" without reading it. Can you honestly say you never violated one ever? For example, when you get a new computer, do you go through each and every licence of every program to check if you can transfer it to you new computer (you can if the licence is 'only one user', but not if it says 'only on one computer').

I agree the kid was wrong in retrospect, and he admits that. However, I'm question you if you live up to the letter of each and every agreement you get, especially when it comes to software!

Re:Intellectual Property

[MoneyT]

The version he distributed was not the new versions availible. Even under the new versions you sign an NDA.

Re:Intellectual Property

[henryhbk]

Exactly right

Even worse, if he didn't read/understand the contract, that does not bode well for either software development or medicine. As both a ADC member and a physician, reading COMPLETELY is very important. In medicine, understanding contracts (how you get paid/not sued...) is very important. Also just brushing off all those warnings (reading superficially through studies...) gets patients killed (or worse).

While I agree destroying his future medical career, any criminal record other than minor vehicular stuff, will severely limit (if not eliminate) his ability to ever practice. Apple has to set a precedent (the next guy might not be a med student), otherwise everyone will do it.

As to all those people who note that anyone can sign up for $500, this is true (I'm sure microsoft's mac BU has it), but you do so by agreeing to an NDA. It's not your material to decide to obey/disobey the NDA. Apple has the right to protect its IP, just as you as a patient can protect your personal information (although don't get me started on HIPPA), so if you don't want to play by their rules, don't play.

If he decides to continue with medicine, and (is convicted he could only do) does research, he will learn that again sharing/stealing IP gets you "de-funded" rapidly.

Re:Intellectual Property

[node 3]

The version he distributed was not the new versions availible.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Tiger isn't available in stores, but you can download it for $500 (in fact, you're licensed to install it on 5 computers, so each copy costs less than a single Panther copy, from that point of view). There are some special internal seeds of Tiger, and some not-widely-distributed seeds, if that's what you mean.

Even under the new versions you sign an NDA.

I don't believe you actually sign an NDA. You click "I agree". These actions are not identical (not even from a legal point of view, which I am not addressing--virtually everyone agrees that it's Apple's legal right to sue, but the outcry is whether this whole mess is even remotely fair).

My point being that this is a publicly available beta. You can't walk into an Apple Store and buy it, but basically anyone can buy it from Apple. It's hard to claim this is some sort of "top secret prototype" if you make the damn thing available to anyone with $500, and post data on it on your websites and stream public videos showing off its features.

This is just a small-time case of piracy. Fine the kid $2k, scare him half to death (so he and others think twice, then thrice, before doing the same thing) and call it a day. What you don't do is destroy a person's professional life before it even gets started.

Re:Intellectual Property

[Kaihaku]

Indeed, I completely agree. Not only is it greatly disturbing that a developer would betray Apple's trust in him, in addition at this stage in the game I've heard that Tiger is quite buggy. I have a friend who is a developer, graduate level cs guy not some weak pre-med, who has been filling me in on it. Even in its current flawed state, it sounds wonderous.

In other news

[gowen]

OS X 10.3.8 was released to the internet, but most discerning Apple users sent it straight back.

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

You got an off-topic, but as a stung user of 10.3.8 you'd get a +1 funny from me...

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

Stung? I've been using 10.3.8 on multiple systems since it came out, and it works great. WTF are you babbling about?

What's his defense?

[bigtallmofo]

From everything that I've read his defense to Apple's charge of him posting the pre-release software is that he's a kid, please feel sorry for him.

I feel sympathy for him too, but how do you stop leaks if not punish the people that perpetrate the leaks?

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

he's a kid, please feel sorry for him.

He's 23, for God's sake. He's not a kid, he's an adult.

And given that he *must* have been aware of the
i) illegality
ii) traceability
of his leaks, he's a particularly stupid adult.

Spare your sympathy for people who deserve it.

Re:What's his defense?

[Jedi Alec]

the whole point of the article is that many feel he's been sufficiently scared to death by now and that it's overkill to drag him through litigation hell. That, and the bad PR it's giving Apple...

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do read the interview - unless he's lying through his teeth, he was naive and actually didn't really understand what he was doing

Re:What's his defense?

[Refrag]

He was lying through his teeth.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he shouldn't be doing things he doesn't understand...

"Sorry officer, but I don't really know how to drive a car....honest!"

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes he did. He admits he created a Torrent and made the file available on an "invite only" network. He very clearly knew what he was doing. He even asked for help in creating the Torrent because he had never done it before; but it clearly shows he fully intended to distribute the file and knew that others would download it.

Re:What's his defense?

[Maestro4k]

Spare your sympathy for people who deserve it.

• So yes, he doesn't terribly deserve sympathy, but.... What are the penalties being sought? Is Apple going after the maximum allowed by law for this? If so then the penalites far outweight the actual crime. While I don't feel sorry for him (yes, he's old enough to know better and should have known better), I don't think it's right to send someone into financial ruin for the rest of their natural lifes over one fuck up.

• Penalize him fairly to punish him for his crime, but leave him a chance in hell to come back from all this and be a productive member of society. If he's going to spend the rest of his life flipping burgers to pay off fines, he'll be completely useless to society, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up committing suicide.

  So yeah, he's an idiot, but does the punishment truly fit the crime? Is this a case where he could have broken into Apple's HQ, slaughtered the entire Tiger OS team with a hatchet and gotten a lighter sentence? (Note I have no clue what the punishment will be, damn work blocks all blog sites.)

Re:What's his defense?

[c9]

I wouldn't want this guy as my doctor when|if he qualifies.

Re:What's his defense?

[nordicfrost]

I have read the interview, and I have a bad feeling about this guy. He claims that he was unaware of any uploading in BitTorrent, how can you be unaware of it? The whole systems is based upon the fact that as soon as you download, you become an uploader! FTA: "I made the foolish assumption that since I wasn't a developer, and I had a copy that it would be ok if I shared it with 5 or 6 fellow mac fanatics."

Well, if you grasp the concept of illegal software distribution (and I'm not agreeing to the concept, just retelling it as it actually is), he has just admitted the "crime". You are dealing with the law and a private company eager to protect its secrets. I suggest you buy a cluestick and hit yourself over the head with it until you realise it is illegal.

Now, unless he pleads insanity; not understanding what you are doing when you are doing a crime is no an excuse. If I spit chewing gum on the streets of Singapore do you think they'll be lenient on me just because I didn't know it was a crime? Nope.

When I went to law school (relax, I'm not a lawyer) a professor had a saying about my Scandinavian country: "People here seem to think they are born with an insurance for screw-ups. As soon as they do something stupid, they expect sympathy and help from the government." The same can be applied to Desicanuk, you screwed up, broke a contract and actually did a crime. Now fess up and be a man.

FTA: "When I signed up for the free ADC account, I didn't read the agreement. I suppose a lot of us don't read word for word every thing you agree to." Yeah, well you should have. It is retarded to sign something without reading and understanding it. EULAs, which I hate with a passion, are a slightly different thing, but the contract with ADC is something you really should read. An unread contract will almost always bite you in the ass, tell it to my GF who signed a contract with a private school and now has paid thousands of dollars because she signed up for the military while having committed to the contract.

You live, you learn.

Re:What's his defense?

[miskatonic alumnus]

Two things:

1) There are several forms of punishment other than financial ruin.

2) Do you honestly believe that punishing people ever stopped anything? It might, just MIGHT, stop the person being punished from repeating the behavior. But murder and rape have been punished for a loooooong time, and there are no indications that these activities will ever cease.

Re:What's his defense?

[zestyalbino]

Of course Apple has every right to punish him, but what kind of punishment is fair? Ruining his life seems overzealous.

Apple wasn't hurt financially or otherwise from his actions. That doesn't make what he did okay, but it should be considered when determining the fairness of the punishment they want to dish out.

IMHO it would be much more appropriate for Apple to settle this out of court. They could request some form of monetary compensation (an amount that will stretch the finances but not lead to ruin), then have their marketing department portray desicanuk as an example, with a warning that next time they won't be so compassionate. This keeps the community happy, Apple's good-will thriving and doesn't ruin desicanuk's life.

Re:What's his defense?

[DenDave]

Yep, the kid made a mistake. He shouldn't have gotten confused by Apple's Open Source PsychoBabble.. Don't get me wrong, I love my mac, worship the product, though, not the company. Now he can learn from his mistake and download Linux.

Re:What's his defense?

[Nodar]

i couldn't even get through reading that damn interview because every question resulted in a whiney ass "It's not my fault" response.

Re:What's his defense?

[KyleCordes]

Most likely, assuming they win, he'd declare bankruptcy, give up most of his (likely very few, if he is as "kid"-list as other seem to say) assets, and thus pay only a tiny slice of whatever amount they win. This would be a major setback, but unfortunately not all that uncommon of one.

Re:What's his defense?

[XMyth]

Even if he was telling the truth, he still leaked it. Only to "5 or 6" people that he *didn't know* and thought that they wouldn't themselves leak it.

Very stupid if you ask me.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Penalize him fairly to punish him for his crime, but leave him a chance in hell to come back from all this and be a productive member of society. If he's going to spend the rest of his life flipping burgers to pay off fines, he'll be completely useless to society, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up committing suicide.

Which makes you wonder how far Woz and Jobs would've gotten if they'd been similarily nailed for their 'activities' with 'blue boxes'. Would the Apple II have ever existed?

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have read the interview, and I have a bad feeling about this guy

Me too. He claim's to be Canadian, but can't spell "Canuck".

Re:What's his defense?

[geoffspear]

Do you honestly believe that if murder and rape were universally unpunished that there wouldn't be a lot more murder and rape?

Re:What's his defense?

[Skye16]

As someone who just recently graduated, I can say that anything more than 500$ is stretching finances. And frankly, if Visa didn't cover that, I would've been fucked. I spent 4 years in college with, at most, 20$ in my bank account that wasn't spoken for by rent/electricity/food (and that food consisted solely of ramen and 2 liter bottles of "City Cola" (59 cents!))

Re:What's his defense?

[Maestro4k]

Most likely, assuming they win, he'd declare bankruptcy, give up most of his (likely very few, if he is as "kid"-list as other seem to say) assets, and thus pay only a tiny slice of whatever amount they win. This would be a major setback, but unfortunately not all that uncommon of one.

• This may vary by state, but in at least some you cannot have judgements dissolved in bankruptcy. My deadbeat dad tried this years ago to get out of the judgement against him for back child support owed -- and failed. In fact he ended up with his wages garnished after that, and it took him until I was about 30 to pay off all the money owed. So bankruptcy's not always an option.

• Also, bankruptcy is ceasing to be much of an option for anything except perhaps large companies. Banks and credit card companies have managed to get the laws changed, I think you can't dissolve all, or at least most, of credit card debt anymore so a bankruptcy isn't helpful even if you're drowning in debt. Kinda sad, I'm sure there were some deadbeats who filed it just to avoid paying, but I really doubt _all_ of bankruptcies were like that.

Re:What's his defense?

[miskatonic alumnus]

Don't misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that all punishment should be abolished. I merely think it naive to believe that punishment will completely STOP an activity. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Re:What's his defense?

[bbuR_bbuB]

...and mandatory minimum sentencing for potheads really works now. No one ever smokes pot anymore. It's a good thing punishment works there.

Re:What's his defense?

[jocknerd]

I'm in total agreement with you. I love my PowerMac G5 and my iBook. But right now I'm running Ubuntu on my iBook because I just like it better. OS X is a solid OS but after using it for the last couple of years, I have come to the realization that I would rather run Linux. I'm pretty much using my dual G5 for video editing and storing photos.

I just feel like I'm in more control of my computer when its running Linux than OS X. When running OS X, the leash never really comes off of you. Apple always finds a way to pull back on the leash. One big example would be with iTunes. iTunes allows me to burn my iTMS purchased music to CD and make an audio CD from it. So basically its stripping the DRM for me. But it only does this if I burn a CD. It doesn't give me the ability to save the files to disk, just a CD. Its the small things like this in OS X that keeps reminding me why I prefer Linux in the long run.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) There are several forms of punishment other than financial ruin.

Yes, but civil court doesn't allow for "creative sentencing" like the lunatic-fringe judges/public prefer. All it allows for is monetary compensation for wrongdoing committed between individuals (corporations are considered individuals).

2) Do you honestly believe that punishing people ever stopped anything? It might, just MIGHT, stop the person being punished from repeating the behavior. But murder and rape have been punished for a loooooong time, and there are no indications that these activities will ever cease.

Yes, I'm sure if a close family member was raped, you'd be completely blasse-faire about the whole situation and not want to see the perpetrator punished.

Listen, laws do help. If people know they're going to be punished for committing an illegal action, a wide swath of people are far less likely to commit a crime. Others will still go ahead and do it. Those are the people you can't stop. Those are people we call criminals. There's a reason they're prosecuted like this. Because they're criminals.

The remaining people? Those are the ones you want to stop, because if you don't, society as we know it will return to anarchy.

Frankly, if I discovered my doctor had something like this lurking in his past, I sure as hell wouldn't want the slimeball working on me. Poor judgement like this can easily lead to poor judgement in dealing with patient good vs. HMO profitability.

There's a very good reason why lawyers get disbarred after breaking the law. And they're lawyers... I expect my doctors to less scummy than the average lawyer.

Re:What's his defense?

[PureCreditor]

i agree. just because he's a pre-med student doesn't mean he's a "kid." he can vote, marry, engage in private behaviors, and even drink. by all means, that's an adult.

If Apple simply seeks a small damage in court, the message will be clear : we will enforce our NDA, but we will be lenient on the first time. next time, it will be damages galore!!

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

This is clearly a case of a massive corporation against a lone individual. His age is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he has no means to defend himself against a multi-billion dollar corporation with an axe to grind, and that his intent wasn't malicious.

This is a civil matter, so there's no jail involved. However, why should Apple computer be able to ruin someones life through financial means just because they have multi-billions of dollars and he has.. well probbably almost nothing? I'm sure Apple will trump up millions of dollars worth of "damages" in a miss-guided attempt at "sending a message". In this case Microsoft is actually the better company. How many times have pre-releases of windows been leaked, but yet they've never gone out on the warpath with big lawsuits?

Re:What's his defense?

[gmknobl]

Yes, he's an adult legally. "Not otherwise though," says the 40-some year old computer programmer.

A) They should punish him
B) They punishment should not be harsh unless Steve Job's tax returns were hidden in the released code. Suggest Multi-thousand dollar fine - like @$5-10K + community service.
C) He should definitely loose all rights to anything MAC unless he ponies up money like the rest of us; this includes loosing any apple accounts at iTunes, etc.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because rape and pot is such a straight line.

Exactly how much pot have you smoked today? Does it make you warm and fuzzy to know that when you're fired from your job (in my experience die-hard potheads invariably get fired due to foggy-headed stupidity), your next job may require random drug testing as a term of employment? Maybe you should think about that before lighting up next time.

Listen, I'm on the side that mandatory minimum sentencing is stupid. But to throw out all laws because you want to light up and park a schoolbus full of children onto a railroad crossing just isn't going to cut the cheese in the real world.

Re:What's his defense?

[MattBurke]

This isn't about guilt - he's admitted what he's done. It's about the disproportionate punishment which comes from things like this nowadays.

If they slap him with a stupid debt then that's his life ruined. If he'd have shoplifted the 5 or 6 copies he said he distributed, he'd have been a lot better off legally. Heck he'd have been better off if he'd have hijacked a truck full of the stuff at gunpoint! It isn't even release software!

Re:What's his defense?

[jcr]

However, why should Apple computer be able to ruin someones life

The dude did it to himself. If Apple gave him a walk, as a shareholder, I'd be calling for the board's heads on a platter.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

in my experience die-hard potheads invariably get fired due to foggy-headed stupidity

I don't buy it for a second. I puffed weed, drank booze regularly, dropped acid and mushrooms all the way through graduate school, while studying mathematics and earning a 3.9 GPA. Smoking pot doesn't make you stupid --- but many stupid people are smoking pot.

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

why should Apple computer be able to ruin someones life through financial means just because they have multi-billions of dollars and he has..

The wealth of the litigants is completely irrelevant. Since he did the crime, and and ignorance is no defence, je doesn't need to hire a lawyer. He should plead guilty, or no contest, ask for his naivety and stupidity to be taken into account, and throw himself on the mercy of the court.

If he still gets ridiculously harshly punished, tough. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Re:What's his defense?

[nharmon]

Child support may be a special circumstance since its the government you owe the money back to. Kind of like how student loans are still owed after bankruptcy.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

So for a deterrent to be effective it must stop all activity? Otherwise throw out the punishment?

I mean, aspirin isn't 100% effective, yet people take it every day to pain. Should people stop taking aspirin because it doesn't work all the time?

By your apparent logic no law on the books today is effective. Right now I'm sure somebody within US borders is trying to forment revolution. Plenty of laws against that. Therefore they must all be thrown out? Because they're not 100% effective?

The guy broke a contract. Sucks to be the guy, but just because he's a struggling student doesn't mean he gets free reign to let chaos loose upon society just because he can't rub enough pennies together to defend himself in court. Some people have to learn lessons the hard way, and obviously this brainiac is one of them.

Guy thought he was too small of a fish to be caught, and is now courting public sympathy to avoid being punished for his actions. Seems awfully weaselly to me. If he was a real man he'd just suck it up and do whatever's necessary to get through this on his own. Even with default judgements against him, his life is going to go on. It's not a death setence. Maybe it won't be the same life he had envisioned, but he has nobody to blame but himself for his actions.

Re:What's his defense?

[file-exists-p]

What should be the penatly, according to you ?

--
Go Debian!

Re:What's his defense?

[wtrmute]

Sorry, he does merit sympathy. Let him who has never used P2P to download something of questionable legal status cast the first stone. He's got as much right to sympathy as those shmucks who were bitch-slapped with lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA... They also downloaded (and shared!) copyrighted material which, while not covered by an explicit NDA, are still not allowed to be given out for free.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

But it only does this if I burn a CD.

Well, yeah, that, or you could just use hymn like normal people and convert your m4p into a m4a file and go on with your life.

It's not as though you wouldn't have a better way of accomplishing the same task under Linux anyway through the same CLI interface. If there's one thing I know about Linux, it's that die-hards aren't giving up the CLI anytime soon even if it means gaining a useable GUI.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

The wealth of the litigants is completely irrelevant.

It's completely relevant. How can any person defend themselves against a multi-billion dollar corporation with teams of lawyers on salary if said corporation gets a bug up their butt? Trials are supposed to be fair (even civil trials), and this is clearly a case of unfairness. Do you really like a world where corps have the power to do whatever they want to individuals because they can sue you into oblivion?

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Actually it's not a crime, and there is no "time". This is a civil matter.

Re:What's his defense?

[PsiPsiStar]

it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up committing suicide.

Or murder.

Heck, if you've gotta go, take someone with you.

At least that would make people (and lawyers) think twice before seeking the maximum penalty and destroying someone's life.

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

How can any person defend themselves against a multi-billion dollar corporation with teams of lawyers on salary if said corporation gets a bug up their butt?

He doesn't need to defend himself. He actually did everything he was accused of. Hiring a lawyer is simply throwing good money away.

Trials are supposed to be fair

He's got no chance of victory. He's going to lose. Now, he's got to choose between paying a lawyer to help him lose, or not bothering.

Re:What's his defense?

[schuster]

I think you nailed it. At the end of the day, the punishment only has to be tough enough for apple to not need to worry about illegal distribution of its software. This guy's life is already ruined. He's already going to be flipping burgers for the rest of his life. I think that sends a perfectly strong signal to the rest of the pir8 world. You'll survive, but you'll never be able to have the life that you dreamed about. The key is simply that they can survive.

Re:What's his defense?

[Pig Hogger]

The dude did it to himself. If Apple gave him a walk, as a shareholder, I'd be calling for the board's heads on a platter.

When comes the revolution, the platters will be full of hardass-sonovabitches heads like yours.

Re:What's his defense?

[Refrag]

When did Apple claim Tiger was Open Source?

Re:What's his defense?

[geoffspear]

No one's claiming that punishment will, should, or could possibly be expected to completely eliminate any crime.

It's probably reasonable to think that more people would kill or rape others if there was no punishment. It's probably also reasonable to think that at least some people don't smoke pot because it's illegal to do so. None of this means that any particular punishment for a particular crime is just (I'd hope that most people wouldn't consider rape and murder to be on the same level as drug possession, morally, but that's irrelevant). The point is that it's fallacious to claim that punishment has no effect based on the continued existence of a crime.

Whatever the moral status, if one person who would have pirated software otherwise is stopped by the thought that they could be sued, it's effective, even if another person isn't affected. The world isn't black and white.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

He doesn't need to defend himself. He actually did everything he was accused of. Hiring a lawyer is simply throwing good money away.

You obviously don't understand the civil system. This isn't about guilt or innocense, it's about damages and liability. This isn't a criminal trial where a judge/jury determines if you're innocent or guilty of a crime. This is a trial where the plaintiff says how much monetary damage they had inflicted on them, and the defendant has to defend against the amount of damage, liability for that damage, etc. The lawyer would take apart all the ridiculous "damage" claims that Apple will likely fabricate, and/or argue the defendant isn't liable for said damages.

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

I understand it plenty.

The amount of damages is in the award of the judge. If the judge chooses to ignore notions of natural justice, then the defendant if screwed either way. If not, then a lawyer is liable to cost him more than he'll save him.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

I understand it plenty.

From your own statements, I don't think you do. You've already decided that a lawyer will cost him more than it'll save him... before Apple has even declared what they're seeking.

The amount of damages is in the award of the judge.

Which is based on what the plaintiff argues. With no lawyer to defend you, Apple is free to make up essentially whatever frivolous charges they want. There's a LONG standing tradition of companies just making up numbers to make it look like a big case, and then hope it sticks.

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

There's a LONG standing tradition of companies just making up numbers to make it look like a big case,

But if the judge is too inexperienced to spot this, you're screwed which ever way you go about it.

Re:What's his defense?

[Maestro4k]

At least that would make people (and lawyers) think twice before seeking the maximum penalty and destroying someone's life.

• Probably not, how many crimes carry the death penalty in various states but are still being committed on pretty much a daily basis? Some people will never consider the penalties when taking actions, and that includes companies suing and the lawyers representing them. Look at how many people's lifes have been destroyed by the RIAA so far, see any signs of them stopping even in the face of massive public outrage?

Re:What's his defense?

[rho]

Ooh, your revolutionary talk, she is so frightful!

Please--when the revolution comes, the hardasses will be the ones in charge because (surprise), they're hardasses. Also, they're armed.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the judge's job to argue the defendant's case for him, that's for the defendant to do.

If he refuses to do so, the judge shouldn't be forced to do it. Therefore the judge isn't going to do it. The judge is going to base his decisions off the evidence presented by both sides. If one side refuses to cooperate, guess what side's going to have unequal representation of "facts"?

The defendant needs to buck up and take it like a man, and do what needs to be done to deal with the consequences of his action. Dropping out of medical school isn't going to destroy his goddamn life, if that's what it'll take for him to get the necessary cash to defend himself.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

When the revolution comes, your pasty ass will be the first into the battleship-class deep fryer.

If it can flash fry a buffalo in 60 seconds, it should be able to cope with your biomass in 90.

Re:What's his defense?

[EvilTwinSkippy]

But murder and rape have been punished for a loooooong time, and there are no indications that these activities will ever cease.

I just spent the morning as a witness to a burglary. While you are sitting there waiting for the preliminary hearing, you have to sit through all of the other preliminary hearings going on.

One thing is apparent to me, having gone through the process. Most crime today is committed by stupid people. Really stupid people.

What I didn't see is one, not one, case where a person of sound mind committed a crime for personal gain. Not one.

Say what you will about making an example of people. It's the assurance that you will be caught, and you will be tried that make sure the average Joe doesn't engage in it.

Re:What's his defense?

[gowen]

It's not the judge's job to argue the defendant's case for him

Correct. But seeing as the defendant doesn't actually have a case, that's not actually relevant. He's going to lose, and he's going to have damages awarded against him.

Now, it's not the defendant's job to decide on punishment. It's not the prosecution's either, or though many seem to believe so.

That is the judge's job, once presented with the facts of the case (which the defendant is more than capable of doing).

Re:What's his defense?

[stoborrobots]

Unless you count getting GPL'd software via BitTorrent as "download[ing] something of questionable legal status", I'm sure that there are at least a few of us around who have not used P2P in such a manner...

Some of us do believe in respecting copyright/trademark/patent "property" rights while they exist... even while arguing against them.

Re:What's his defense?

[EvilTwinSkippy]

That's like asking how anyone can defend themselves against a charging bull after ignoring the "No Trespassing" and "Danger Bull" signs while hopping over a barbed wire fence and wearing a red jacket.

Re:What's his defense?

[hawk]

Willful infringement, $50k/each, at six copies. Quite a chunk :)

hawk

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

Sadly, you're correct. Corporations are like a charging bull that can't be defended against unless you happen to be a bull yourself. That's actually the problem I'm pointing out. Corporations have far too much control over everyone. In a world full of angry bulls, why do we allow them to roam free around the world maming whomever can't defend themselves?

Almost 40 years ago the supreme court ruled that poor people are entitled to a public defender in criminal cases brought against them because the constitution guaranteed a fair trial. I find the power that corps have to sue individuals very similar to that situation, though I'm not exactly certain if the constitution was ever intended to protect individuals from corps.

Re:What's his defense?

[EvilTwinSkippy]

For the record, the constitution predates the concept of a corporation by about 100 years. And frankly lawsuits don't involve throwing people in jail, death, or bodily modification. We may think being broke is the end of the world, but it's not.

And you missed an important point in my allegory of the bull. You have to step past several clearly marked, if flimsy, points of law. And you have to do it in a way that attracts the big dumb animal's attention. You can't exactly be caught being innocent.

In that respect our legal system is there to seperate the wrongdoers from the innocent. This guy is guilty as sin. Of what, and to what extent, is anyone's guess. But passing around trade secrets and copyrighted material over p2p networks is hard to argue the lack of guilt.

One can bitch about a $780 speeding ticket and points on his/her license as excessive, but at the end of the day he/she was still exceeding the posted speed limit.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can "stop leaks" without eliminating them all. Just a police officer can stop a robbery without eliminating all robbery.

I'm assuming you don't understand the usage of "stop", because there's no other way I can make sence of your comment. Unless you just wanted to state the obvious for no reason at all.

Re:What's his defense?

[DenDave]

Ubuntu? livecd?It borks on my Ibook... Haven't tried the install yet but I like Ubuntu on the X86 so I am hoping to get it to work on the Ibook...
Yes, Linux does have more of a hands on feel. Due to the above issue I am currently finking quite a bit to keep thatg linuxy feel to the ibook so I have konqueror for file browsing and the like.. finder just doesn't do it for me... Your way around DRM in itunes is the most effective, contrary to many things said about hymn, I have found it a pain to keep playing escalation with all the "atom" markers and subsequently needing to re-clean files after an itunes update.. also had my account locked because of the session key thing.. arrghh!! Simply burn a cd and re-rip.. better yet just order the freakin cd! (okay that is easy for me to say cuz I like old music and the cd's are cheap..)

Re:What's his defense?

[Goo.cc]

"This is clearly a case of a massive corporation against a lone individual"

No, this is clearly a case of a lone individual illegally distributing the copyrighted material of a massive corporation.

"why should Apple computer be able to ruin someones life through financial means just because they have multi-billions of dollars and he has.. "

So you're saying that if you screw someone with lots of money, they shouldn't be able to sue you in return?

Re:What's his defense?

[Himring]

He's 23, for God's sake. He's not a kid, he's an adult.

From my pov, trust me, he's a kid....

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

You have to step past several clearly marked, if flimsy, points of law.

Bullshit. The points of law aren't clearly marked, they're whatever the corps decide they are. Violate my invalid patent? lawsuit. Say something I think is defamotory to the corp? lawsuit. Tell people about a black friday sale? lawsuit. Name your website about your star wars toys ToysRGus.com? lawsuit. The law is _supposed_ to protect people and businesses from the damage inflicted by others. This particular case has nothing to do with the actual damage caused by this guy, because there really is none. What it's about is muscle flexing and knocking someone down to the ground in an attempt to show where the real power lies, big corps. You may think that's justifiable, but it's not the intent of the law.

In that respect our legal system is there to seperate the wrongdoers from the innocent.

The civil system is never inteded to stop "wrongdoers" that's what our criminal legal system is for. This is not an issue of right vs. wrong like people are trying to make it out to be. It's an issue of monetary damage.

But passing around trade secrets and copyrighted material over p2p networks is hard to argue the lack of guilt.

The "trade secrets" involved were shared with thousands of other people, and will become public knowledge within a few months. There's no source code theft here. Not a very secret trade secret. You keep talking about "guilt" as if it's the ultimate deciding factor of ruining someone financially. The case is about damage and liability. Guilt is a term associated with criminal courts.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

So you're saying that if you screw someone with lots of money, they shouldn't be able to sue you in return?

That's a big load of crap, and you know it. There's no real damage here. This is a beta release of software already given to thousands of people that's going to go public in a few months anyway. This case is about the culture of Apple and likely Steve Jobs going ape-shit every time something "leaks".

Re:What's his defense?

[Goo.cc]

There's no real damage here.

That is not for us to determine. As the injured party, it is for Apple to determine what they need to do.

This case is about the culture of Apple and likely Steve Jobs going ape-shit every time something "leaks".

No, this case is about stopping people from distributing material that they do not have the right to distribute.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

That is not for us to determine. As the injured party, it is for Apple to determine what they need to do.

So I guess I (and everyone else) are robbed of having any opnion on the matter. The decider of who wins the case will be a judge or jury (though I doubt this will ever get that far). But that doesn't mean no one can have an opnion on how much Apple was really hurt by this. Do you say the same thing about OJ Simpson because 12 people thought he was innocent?

Re:What's his defense?

[bbuR_bbuB]

Whatever the moral status, if one person who would have pirated software otherwise is stopped by the thought that they could be sued, it's effective, even if another person isn't affected.

Do you even read what you write? You're trying to tell me that it's worth financially destroying a 22 year old kid because of some 'youthful indiscretions' just to stop one person from pirating software? First, that sounds pretty 'black and white' to me. In your eyes, the punishment either helps or hinders the cause. Let's discard this point, as it matters neither here nor there. If I'm reading you correctly, your main point is saying that it's worth destroying someone financially to save a corporation some impossible to accurately calculate and ultimately unimportant sum of money. How can taking a person's resonable chance at a productive life (that doesn't involve asking 'do you want fries with that) somehow be worth saving a corporation a few bucks? What gives Apple the right to determine the future of this guy, considering he would have little to no recourse to defend himself in a civil case?

Re:What's his defense?

[geoffspear]

No, I'm not saying it's worth it. I'm only countering the argument that punishment is not effective.

I don't think it's worth it, or even morally defensible, to throw someone in prison for smoking pot, either. That doesn't mean I don't think it's an effective deterrant, even if some people still smoke pot.

As for his ability to defend himself, I don't see how that's relevant. Should they only sue people who can defend themselves? If a homeless guy murders you, should he just be released because it wouldn't be fair for an experienced DA to prosecute him if he can't afford to hire a really good lawyer? It's a non sequitur.

Re:What's his defense?

[geoffspear]

You can have an opinion, and others can think you're wrong. That's why it's an opinion.

How the hell is his arguing against your opinion any different than you arguing against his? Trying to pass off his comments as trying to deny you the right to an opinion is hypocritical and it makes you look like a crybaby.

Re:What's his defense?

[moody]

If he'd have shoplifted the 5 or 6 copies he said he distributed, he'd have been a lot better off legally.

Maybe in Canada (I don't know any of Canadian law and I figure for shoplifting it might be more lenient than in the U.S.). IANAL but I served on a grand jury and through that experience I know that in Illinois shoplifting anything valued over $150 (2 copies of OSX shoplifted would pass this amount) is an automatic felony charge and you are likely to spend 1 year or more in prison and every job you ever apply for again you'll need to state that you committed a felony and in many states you'll never be able to vote again.

If the matter is purely civil he might be financially ruined and might have to declare bankruptcy but hopefully he could get a job and eventually rebuild his life.

In either case the outlook would not be pretty.

Re:What's his defense?

[EvilTwinSkippy]

How unclear is patent law? The patent is published. The rules governing patents are published. The enforcment of patents has been the same since day 1 in this country, and it benefits the small-time entrepreneur every bit as much the megacorp.

Defamation is defamation. Free speech is free speech. The boundary between the two has been an ongoing debate since before the founding of this country. Take out "megacorps" and insert "Nobility" or "Celebrity" and you have the same cases going back for centures.

Trade marks are another item that are government registered and widely published. And like free speech, debate over common usage versus the trade mark owner goes back to the beginning of case law.

As far as trade secrets go, a trade secret can be between 2 people, or 2 million. The size of the distribution doesn't matter. What the law cares about is a) do you own the material and b) did you attempt to limit the distribution of it. Don't bitch at me, that is what case law dictates.

And as far as monetary damage goes, if someone takes your product and starts minting a cheap copies, that hurts your bottom line. This is Econ 101. This is why there are Patent and Trademark laws on the books. This is why there is a civil court system. That is why we have Copyrights.

One of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, was, after all, a retired printer.

Re:What's his defense?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If they slap him with a stupid debt then that's his life ruined. If he'd have shoplifted the 5 or 6 copies he said he distributed, he'd have been a lot better off legally.

According to the article there were about 2500 downloads from his seed. That is 2500*$130=$325K. Now add in any damage from leaking the public beta to the public, including bad PR caused by the leaky betas, now include Apple's legal fees to get an injunction + restitution. This theoretically cost Apple a lot of money, and it was something he agreed not to do. I mean if I sign an agreement that says I won't take a dump in the food at a restaurant if they let me into the kitchen, then I do that and lots of people get sick, and sue, and their business goes downhill, I'd damn well expect to be sued for the damage caused. This guy has no excuse. He's supposed to be a med student, which further reduces my faith in the profession. He will probably have a lot of debt to pay off and that is a good thing.

P.S. your comments about hijacking a truck are moronic. He is not going to spend 8-10 years in prison for this, he is going to be in debt until he pays for the damage he caused.

Re:What's his defense?

[The_Prophetx]

As for his ability to defend himself, I don't see how that's relevant. Should they only sue people who can defend themselves? If a homeless guy murders you, should he just be released because it wouldn't be fair for an experienced DA to prosecute him if he can't afford to hire a really good lawyer? It's a non sequitur.

I believe the analogy here is flawed. Murder is a criminal offense and if the homeless guy didn't have the funds to retain a lawyer, the state provides one. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the state provides a public defender for civil cases.

Re:What's his defense?

[tekitsune]

No, this case is about stopping people from distributing material that they do not have the right to distribute. And it goes beyond just not having the right to distribute. It was distributed in violation of a "signed" agreement that said he wouldn't. Remove anything like an NDA from the equation and this wouldn't nearly be as big of an issue as it is. But when you have a contract saying that you won't distribute something and then you do? The law just sees it for what it is. A breach of contract. Is it right or wrong of Apple to push this? From a the standpoint of the integrity of their Developer agreements, they have to go through with this. If they back down and someone else comes along and does the same thing, all they have to do when they get into a court room as point at this case and say "Hey, look! They didn't do anything here when they knew about it. I should be able to get away with it too." It's all about maintaing a precident. As with anyone that has "intellectual property", you have to defend your rights or you lose them. Is Apple being too harsh? I can't say. Ultimately no one outside Apple would know what they're looking for as far as damages go until a trial or a settlement happens. But they can't just drop it. That, in the long run, just ends up hurting their business. It's not necessarily the damage from this incident. It's the potential for damage later on that becomes the bigger worry.

Re:What's his defense?

[Paradise Pete]

Do you honestly believe that punishing people ever stopped anything?

Well, yeah, I do.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, everyone's doing it and therefore it's ok? Cool. That means I just have to convince a bunch of people in my area to start robbing banks. Then I'll rob one, get tons of money, and get off scott free since it's ok.

By the way, I've never downloaded anything of questionable legality on the internet. I'm not that dumb!

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

Because it's opinion about something that's a fact, not an opinion about what flavor ice cream tastes better. There is an ultimate truth about how much money this actually cost Apple. Facts contribute to form an opinion, and in this case the facts are that the software is BETA, it's already released to thousands of people, there's no source code involved, and the final release is only a few months away.

The world isn't quite as simple as they made it out in High School with those simple definitions of Fact and Opinion. In reality there's no hard line between the two, but a much larger continum.

Trying to pass off his comments as trying to deny you the right to an opinion is hypocritical

Except he was trying to say we (as in the public, or slashdot, or whomever) couldn't determine if any damage was done. That sounds an awful lot like not being able to have an opinion, or at least not any valid opinion. In this case even the Judge or Jury would only have an opinion on the matter, as the actual fact of how much money was lost is near impossible to actually determine. I hope you're not one of those people that thinks all opinions are equally valid.

and it makes you look like a crybaby.

Try to be a bit more civil. No one likes a name-caller.

Re:What's his defense?

[geoffspear]

At a minimum, the damage is $500 (the cost to join ADC at a level which is given the seeds) times the number of people who downloaded it. However, the damage is not necessarily all financial. The legal FACT is that copyright infringement opens you up to statutory damages. That's not an opinion, it's statutory law.

The world isn't quite as simple as they made it out in High School with those simple definitions of Fact and Opinion.

Thanks for the tip. I have a degree in philosophy.

Try to be a bit more civil.

This from Mr. "That's a big load of crap, and you know it." Rich.

Re:What's his defense?

[Nikker]

Well lets look at it like this. Lets say I'm 6'7" 250 lbs and I let you date my sister. You two go out and you touch her boobs and she freaks out.

If I beat you to a bloody pulp and break *all* of your bones does that seem right to you now?

Or maybe it would have been more *fair* if I just kicked you in the nuts?

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

How unclear is patent law? The patent is published. The rules governing patents are published. The enforcment of patents has been the same since day 1 in this country, and it benefits the small-time entrepreneur every bit as much the megacorp.

Parent law isn't as unclear as much as it's unfair. Anyone with a suitcase full of money can sue any competitor they think they can take on with a trumped up patent portfolio. Patents are weapons, and unless you have the money to defend yourself, you lose no matter if you're in the right or not. See power of large corps above.


Defamation is defamation. Free speech is free speech. The boundary between the two has been an ongoing debate since before the founding of this country. Take out "megacorps" and insert "Nobility" or "Celebrity" and you have the same cases going back for centures.

Kinda sounds like you're saying the law IS unclear. Why does the fact that evil bullshit has been going on for centuries make it allright? Murder, rape, and theft have been going on since recorded history, but yet stranglely we still think they're wrong.

As far as trade secrets go, a trade secret can be between 2 people, or 2 million. The size of the distribution doesn't matter.

Don't give me that. 2 million people knowing something is NOT a secret. Trade secret relies on something ACTUALLY being a secret. If it's generally known, guess what? It's no longer a secret.

And as far as monetary damage goes, if someone takes your product and starts minting a cheap copies, that hurts your bottom line.

Except that's not at all what happened here. You've only invented your false scenario because if you stated the truth, it'd be quite obvious there's no monetary damage. No one minted cheap copies, as of yet there's not an actual final product yet! This was a BETA, not the final product. If anything it would only increase sales of the final product since no one runs a beta OS once the final release comes out.

Re:What's his defense?

[PsiPsiStar]

Yeah, but lawyers and plaintiffs don't suffer any serious consequences from their actions.

Probably not, how many crimes carry the death penalty in various states but are still being committed on pretty much a daily basis?

Lawyers and large corporations are typically quite rational and capable of calculating threats to their own self interest, unlike many morons on the street.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Those with nothing to lose are the most dangerous.
2. Most "hardasses" are all talk and pussy out when push comes to shove
3. Who says we aren't armed too, with illegially modified fully automatic assault weapons?

Re:What's his defense?

[trufflemage]

I take what Geo.cc wrote, "That is not for us to determine. As the injured party, it is for Apple to determine what they need to do," to be an abstract principle about whose place it is to forgive an injury. If someone steps on my toe, onlookers may well decide that it was a minor infraction and tell me to shrug and smile, but what if it really hurt? My toe, my place to forgive.

We slashdotters are distanced third parties and I for one do not know how much monetary damage was actually done to Apple by Desicanuk. I have trouble coming up with any clear way of deciding how much money the distribution cost, especially since it sounds like the value is purely in potential. I agree there are facts at the base of any claimed damage, but this case requires lots of speculation on how to interpret and extrapolate these facts. I'm certainly not ready to agree with a knee-jerk "this didn't cost them a dime" response.

Let's listen to Apple's estimates.

Re:What's his defense?

[Vellmont]

At a minimum, the damage is $500 (the cost to join ADC at a level which is given the seeds) times the number of people who downloaded it.

Only if Apple can somehow prove that everyone that DLed it would have actually bought the product. Extremely doubtfull. Most people that DLed it were very likely just interested consumers who would never have dreamed of plunking down $500 for a BETA copy of MaxOS.


This from Mr. "That's a big load of crap, and you know it." Rich.

There's a difference between being personally insulting, and saying something someone said is crap. Civility isn't respecting everything everyone says equally, it's not turning the argument personal.

Re:What's his defense?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

With a debt like that, he might as well be in prison.

You call the comment about hijacking moronic. The exact same can be said about your "taking a crap in a resturant's food" comment.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

its a case of a lone individual kicking a massive corporation in the junk, then crying about it when the massive corporation tears him a new one because he apparently didnt know if would make them mad

the guys 23 - old enough to be an adult for at least 2 years in more conservative places, 5 years in less conservative places, and 10 years in the more liberal ones. hes educated, a grown adult, and has no excuses to hide behind - what he did could only have been done willfully, he just didnt believe hed get caught

Re:What's his defense?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

With a debt like that, he might as well be in prison.

Yeah, because being locked in a small cage for a decade is so comparable to being deeply in debt, but free, with a medical degree, and the prospect of paying off the debt. That poor guy. I'm sure all the people in prison for victimless crimes will agree with you completely.

You call the comment about hijacking moronic. The exact same can be said about your "taking a crap in a resturant's food" comment.

I made an analogy. You have not demonstrated any way in which it is not applicable. Great logic there.

Re:What's his defense?

[Anonymous Coward]

chances are he will never be able to pay off that kind of debt you quote and he will be ruined for life, never able to buy anything of significance .

Re:What's his defense?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

chances are he will never be able to pay off that kind of debt you quote and he will be ruined for life, never able to buy anything of significance .

We have no idea what the settlement will be. If it is 500K, I think a doctor will be able to pay it off. If it is more, then perhaps they will not. In any case, if I cause damage through whatever means, I'm responsible for repairing that damage. If I burn 100K of my employer's money, they are entitled to sue me, and the courts should require that I pay it. In this case damages are questionable. He will certainly have to pay court costs and some compensation. The amount is what they are going to court to determine.

Re:What's his defense?

[sjames]

I think you're missing a few important things about civil trials.

A civil trial must answer 3 questions. What actually happened, To what degree (if any) is the defendant liable for damages resulting from the events, and finally, what damages actually resulted from the events.

Each of those questions is answered based on evidence presented by both the defense and prosecution.

Because of that, even if the events and liability are not in dispute, an attorney is still necessary to assure that the 3rd question is determined fairly. (i.e. Yes it is entirely the defendant's fault that the plaintiff's candy bar fell in the sewer and he is liable for the replacement cost, but $1,000,000?!? Emotional distress?!? Lost WAGES!?!)

If he mounts no defense, he is pretty much at the plaintiff's mercy. Considering the very special math typically used to estimate damages in this sort of case, that amount could easily exceed the GDP.

The fun fact about the special math is that in general, the huge "losses" magically shrink to insignificance when it comes time to file with the SEC and report to the stockholders.

Re:What's his defense?

[sjames]

That means I just have to convince a bunch of people in my area to start robbing banks.

Oddly enough, yes! If you can convince enough people that robbing the bank is OK and get them to stand behind that belief by changing the law, then, Yes, you will be allowed to rob the bank. Good luck on your mission, you'll need it!

bt

[maharg]

TFA suggests that bittorrent is at the heart of tiger. Perhaps Apple should look closer to home ?

OT

[Anonymous Coward]

$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.

I wonder, why do "The Regents" own the rights? Not "The Students" or "The State of California"? Anyone?

Re:OT

[Anonymous Coward]

The regents don't "own" the rights per se, they simply over see them. Since BSD wasn't developed by anyone person, the copyright was assigned to the University of California as a whole. The University of California itself is governed by the Regents, as mandated by the California constitution:

The University of California is governed by The Regents, a 26-member board, as established under Article IX, Section 9 of the California Constitution. The board appoints the President of the University and the principal officers of The Regents: the General Counsel, the Treasurer, and the Secretary. The current Chairman is Gerald Parsky and the Vice Chairman is Richard Blum.

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/

So basically since the copyright is assigned to the school, they are in charge of managing it, and therefore their name appears in the text. You can check out the original 4.4 BSD copyright here:

http://www.au.freebsd.org/copyright/license.html

Re:OT

[Otter]

And, as any UC student will tell you, you write tuition checks payable to "UC Regents". It's the legal entity under which UC finances fall.

The grandparent seems to be concerned that rights and revenues are going straight into the pockets of the 26 members, which is not the case.

Re:OT

[EricHsu]

Probably for the same bureaucratic reason Californians write all their tax checks to Donald Westly(?). [Man, if that guy ever cashed all those checks and split town, he could go buy Fiji.] Everything attached to the UC system goes to the "U.C. Regents". Tuition, IP rights, parking tickets, they even get first dibs on your spouse on wedding night. Sad, really.

Stallman was right

[obender]

I think this proves once again that non-free commodity software is evil.

Re:Stallman was right

[j0e_average]

My thoughts exactly.....with the GPL, I never have to worry about this sort of thing.

The young man is clearly in the "wrong" here. Chalk it up to the foolishness of youth.

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this proves once again that non-free commodity software is evil.

Yes, thankfully free software people don't go threatening lawsuits against people who use, say, their GPL software in ways against the license... ...oh hang on, yes they do.

No difference.

Re:Stallman was right

[CmdrGravy]

Of course they do but the point is that if this was a GPL'd piece of software there would have been problem with the guy distributing it in this way and he would not have broken any of the conditions of the licence which would mean he would not now be in any trouble.

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

> Of course they do but the point is that if this was a GPL'd
> piece of software there would have been problem with the guy
> distributing it in this way

And if it rained liquid iron from the sky we'd all be burned. We aren't in a fantasy world where Tiger is a piece of GPL software.

Tiger is licensed to people under licenses decided upon by Apple. People break that license and Apple gets upset. Many slashdotters seem to think Apple shouldn't, and should just turn a blind eye to it.

If they think that, then they should also not get upset when a company breaks the license terms of GPL software, ie by incorporating GPL code into a proprietary closed source app.

So why is it OK to break Apple's license and go all "awwww Apple should turn a blind eye" when if the GPL was being broken by the same guy, most of slashdot would call for his lynching, be posting his home phone number, address, contact details, criminal records or what have you, online.

Re:Stallman was right

[maharg]

easy, tiger ;o)

Re:Stallman was right

[Richard_at_work]

If someone distributed the Linux kernel under conditions that do not meet the GPL, what would you be saying then? The code was licensed under an agreement, whatever agreement that happens to be, and this person broke the terms of that agreement.

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

>If they think that, then they should also not get upset when a company breaks the license terms of GPL software, ie by incorporating GPL code into a
>proprietary closed source app.

"Financial gain"

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

You either misunderstood the parent's point or are intentionally debating a straw man.

He did not say that this incident demonstrates that copyrights and licenses are evil and that free software is therefore the only righteous path.

Rather, it seems he was referring to the ideals enshrined in the GPL: namely that that it is immoral to hamper people's ability to distribute and modify software. In this case, a student tried to exercise that ability and is now being sued, even though Apple is often thought of as a "humane" company.

Apple's suit reminds all of us that the only way to ensure these freedoms is to use genuinely free software.

Re:Stallman was right

[obender]

If someone distributed the Linux kernel under conditions that do not meet the GPL, what would you be saying then?

You are turning things around. This guy is being accused of distributing something. Breaking the GPL would mean not distributing something. You can easily undo the wrong to the GPL by distributing the source.

So from a negative point of view the difference is between wrong you can easily repair and wrong you have no way of repairing. Apple is not asking this guy to straighten his ways, it's asking for a punishment. While I would no go as far as saying that one is about fear and one is about love the contrast is obvious.

Re:Stallman was right

[gordboy]

While I don't think the act was justified, there is a difference between breaking the GPL by using publicly-created source code in a commercial software and uploading beta compiled code for people to play with. One is making a profit from people's volunteer efforts, the other causes very little harm and may end up benefitting apple in the long run. It's not like the guy stole the Tiger source and is making his own version to sell.

Re:Stallman was right

[Richard_at_work]

Im not turning things around at all, regardless of the fact that breaking the GPL means not distributing the source (or distributing it under a different license), if I distributed the Linux kernel without giving you the sourcecode for that particular version then I have broken the terms of the GPL. This person also had terms to abide by, which he didnt, and Apple is well within its rights to call for punishment.

Anything else is pure semantics, and tantamount to saying 'Laws should protect one aspect of a populace and not another'. Not everyone subscribes to Stallmans views, but to say that closed source software is 'evil' and opensource software 'isnt evil', which the grandparent was, is ludicrous and has absolutely no basis in fact at all.

If you were to say that one was about fear and the other was about love, then that would be your opinion, but it wouldnt make it any closer to reality - both are methods of licensing software according to that software creators desires and end goals. Why should Apple say 'mend your ways' - its up to a Judge in a court of law to say that, or do you not realise that the whole point of a central judicial system was to stop arbitrary and unjust punishments by victims?

Calling closed source software evil is like saying the brick wall around your neighbours garden is evil, because you let anyone into your garden and he wants to control access to his. Just because Apple doesnt want to let you play with their ball under your terms doesnt make their software license evil.

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because Apple doesnt want to let you play with their ball under your terms doesnt make their software license evil.

As a matter of fact, it does. Apple and the rest of the commercial software world are simply wrong and continue to act in an unethical manner.

If such a place existed, they would certainly be bound for corporate hell.

Re:Stallman was right

[Anonymous Coward]

Because slashdot is full of hypocrites with double standards.

Re:Stallman was right

[danila]

Because sharing is good, regardless of what the law says.

Re:Stallman was right

[CmdrGravy]

I think you have read more into my post than was there.

I actually don't agree with the grandparent about proprietary licences being evil, the guy accepted that licence and so should not be surprised if he is asked to pay the consequences.

I was agreeing with the parent that the GPL is enforced and pointing out that if the guy had chosen to distribute a piece of GPL software he wouldn't have been in any trouble which is the point the great grandparent was making but the grand parent post seemed to have misunderstood.

penalty?

[essreenim]

he should pay the penalty...of death?

That's just it. It's a big public taboo over something which is equivalent to shop lifting. Sigh, People always fear what they don't understand!

The 83 year old dead file swapper, Gertrude, would have been laughing her false teeth out at you all if she was alive..

Re:penalty?

[Anonymous Coward]

" It's a big public taboo over something which is equivalent to shop lifting. "

I thought shoplifiting was theft, this is more like "shop duplicating"

Big difference. It didn't hurt anybody and since the product wasn't released you can be sure I wouldn't have bought it. See, absolutly no harm done to Apple.

Or wait, is that only true for music? I keep gettign my justifications for stealing mixed up.

Re:penalty?

[Jim_Callahan]

On the other hand, he's pre-med. Shoplifting is a bad move when the strength of your career rests on your ability to keep oaths about confidentiality and professionalism.

He should probably change his major. Literature, perhaps. Lots of nice jobs that require no integrity that a lit major can get.

Re:penalty?

[essreenim]

Lots of nice jobs that require no integrity that a lit major can get.

Yeah, like IT, hohoh..bah I wish I was laughing. : /

Re:penalty?

[bonch]

I'm so tired of people pointing out the dead 83-year old.

In 2000, EVERYONE on Slashdot was saying the RIAA should sue individual downloaders, not Napster.

Fast foward by four years, and that's exactly what they do. And Slashdotters, again, bitch.

If all you can go on is a list of IPs and computers of file-sharers, chances are you will come across one that is a computer that happens to be owned by an 83-year old who passed away. The suit was dropped. What's the problem?

Oh, right, some people who are used to the convenience of downloading defend illegal piracy and use that as propoganda. "THEY SUED A DEAD 83 YEAR OLD HAHA." Uh, sure.

Re:penalty?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of those nice lit-major jobs don't actually require that you have no integrity. Except when it comes to getting tenure, it's usually just a happy coincidence.

Re:penalty?

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Last I checked there IS a big public taboo over shop lifting.

Re:penalty?

[M. Baranczak]

In 2000, EVERYONE on Slashdot was saying the RIAA should sue individual downloaders, not Napster.
Fast foward by four years, and that's exactly what they do. And Slashdotters, again, bitch.

Can you cite any specific examples of individuals who took both of those positions? "Everyone on Slashdot" is a meaningless designation.

Re:penalty?

[Trillan]

Shoplifting around here caries a fine up to several hundred thousand dollars (I think it's $500,000), and up to five years of prison, plus a criminal record for life. A criminal record would almost certainly destroy his hope of becoming a doctor.

The civil suit, on the other hand, will probably result in a fine of something less than $100,000 and certainly no jail time or criminal record.

Re:penalty?

[stor]

I'm so tired of people pointing out the dead 83-year old.

Why? Don't you find it amusing that the RIAA sued a dead person?

I mean, if -I- was going to sue someone, that'd be the first thing i'd check.

Cheers
Stor

Re:penalty?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the problem?

Maybe you would be happy to pick up the tab for any and all losses(including the emotional stress) endured due to these frivilous lawsuits.

In 2000, EVERYONE on Slashdot was saying...

Again, you lie like the FUDster that you are. You shouldn't complain about illegal piracy while you support legal piracy(copyright). Don't bother to reply unless you have something new and logical to say. In other words, quit copying and pasting from your other posts. It's not funny anymore.

Apple's Dilema

[ites]

If this was software piracy there'd be a clear case for damages. If I spent a huge amount on developing a new product aimed at commercial resale and some dude released it onto the net, I'd sue him too.

But Apple do not really sell software at all. They sell hardware, and they sell fashion. What are the real damages from such an act? Not very significant. Apple users tend to pay for their software because otherwise it's not worth having.

The publicity alone - Apple software being so valuable that someone is prepared to go to jail in order to leak it - is worth a lot.

They should probably do a deal with the guy: hire him for a pittance where he can put his notoriety to use helping Apple.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[qwertphobia]

But Apple do not really sell software at all.

Take a look at Apple's software page and tell me how many applications you see there. Most of these are not provided for free, and some are pretty expensive.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[rebeka thomas]

> But Apple do not really sell software at all. They sell hardware,
> and they sell fashion

Awesome. Since Microsoft do not really sell hardware at all - they sell software... It must be OK for me to just go take a Microsoft Intellimouse, and a Microsoft keyboard.

Cool.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[DelawareBoy]

Apple does sell software. Try going into an Apple store, taking a copy of the OS and walking out the door without paying for it. I think you'll end up in trouble. Do you really think you're only paying for the CD-Rom?

Re:Apple's Dilema

[FirienFirien]

If this was software piracy

Of course it's software piracy. We have software (tiger) that costs money ($500 now, less later - free with new computers from its time of release, but still costs for those who upgrade their systems from panther) which is being pirated (bittorrent).

Just because it's not one of the "biggest" income streams for Apple doesn't mean that it's legal to take that income stream away.

Apple put money in to develop this program, and free distribution of the program means their profits are reduced. That's piracy.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[1000101]

"But Apple do not really sell software at all..

What? Apple had $213 million in 1Q05 in software sales, and estimates $1 billion in software revenues for this year. And you think Apple doesn't really sell software??

Re:Apple's Dilema

[kaleco]

I agree with you about it not damaging software sales, but what they're really worried about is people trying a buggy, unfinished version of Tiger and getting put off by it. They don't want their unfinished code getting into the hands of the public -no matter how unjust, some animosity from buggy code could develop which may affect the brand perception Apple rely on.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[VanillaCoke420]

They don't sell hardware? Didn't feel like it last time I tried to pick up an Intellimouse - I had to pay for it! Weird! I thought they were giving them out for free.

Re:Apple's Dilema

[TheGavster]

Except that MS would have one less Intellimouse and keyboard. A better analogy would be that you would manufacture Intellimice in your basement and give them away for free (Probably still have a problem, though, if you hit volume comparable to a large Bittorrent leak ...)

Re:Apple's Dilema

[karnal]

You can do this if you have an IPOD with no suspicion, right ??

Re:Apple's Dilema

[Isbiten]

I doubt anyone will be put off from buying a finished product because their experience with the beta was bad.

And so far all major upgrades to OS X has been worth the price, they have all added major improvements and features. Which leads me to think that few will think that "Hay this beta doesn't do X, that's it Apple won't be getting my money anymore!"

Re:Apple's Dilema

[mcdesign]

... and you need to sell a kidney for this one. Two kidneys if you want the Linux version.

Apple's Strategic Options

[Anonymous Coward]

They could just not distribute any beta versions at all. Just make them the point zero release and charge for them.

Or, they could just leave lot's of bugs in the beta releases so they'd essentially be worthless even free.

You have to bear in mind that Apple is trying to make money of OS/X. If you agree with that then this particular action isn't an issue. If you don't agree then this action is a moot point and you're pretty silly even arguing about it instead of whether Apple should charge for OS/X.

Pre-Med

[Refrag]

I personally don't want a doctor with this sort of ethics to do anything to me in the future. I hope Apple sues him into oblivion.

Re:Pre-Med

[Lussarn]

I'm sure your current doctor has never given away a copyrighted computer program to someone. I'm sure nobody else you know have done that either. Are you living in a deep forest or something.

Re:Pre-Med

[Jim_Callahan]

Screw his ethics. He posted a piece of software illegally on a highly traceable, public medium. I'm more worried about his competence.

Re:Pre-Med

[Anonymous Coward]

personally don't want a doctor with this sort of ethics to do anything to me in the future. I hope Apple sues him into oblivion.

Funny, I wouldn't mind it at all. Also, I doubt that you would say such a thing if you were dying of some terminal disease and this man could cure you. How would that go?

Him: The bad news is you are dying of cancer. The good news is I found you just in time.

You: "I'm sorry, aren't you the guy who breeched your Apple NDA?

Him: Um... yes. That was 20 years ago. How do you even remember that?

You: I'm ready to die now.

Re:Pre-Med

[thenextpresident]

So, just to be clear on your position: You approve of the RIAA their tactics for suing people into oblivion as well?

And, just to be clear: Anyone who has ever stolen anything in their life, or committed any sort of crime as poor ethics?

Re:Pre-Med

[Refrag]

Good point.

Re:Pre-Med

[Refrag]

He would harvest both of my kidneys because he didn't see anything wrong with it and give them to a couple of his buddies that like to drink too much.

No thanks!

Re:Pre-Med

[Refrag]

Anyone who has ever stolen anything in their life, or committed any sort of crime as poor ethics?

No, but this guy does.

Re:Pre-Med

[graffix_jones]

That's interesting.

To me, his actions are akin to scheduling an 'illegal' MRI for a patient because their HMO won't pay for it. The guy appears to at least have a heart, and he's also got a lot of guts... who else grows up in Canuck-land and then decides to go to school in the deep south.

But you're entitled to your opinion.

Re:Pre-Med

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find really odd is the number of developers that DrunkenBatman has got coming out in support of Desicanuk. Quite useful though -- I now know whose software I can safely neglect to pay for.

Re:Pre-Med

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough* Drama Queen *cough*

Re:Pre-Med

[Eraser_]

You're right, a possibly life saving procedure vs some software for a computer. Sure. I don't want to get in to this about the guy personally, but if you equate copying software to saving someones life you are far, far off.

Re:Pre-Med

[Refrag]

That's a very good point.

Re:Pre-Med

[gmhowell]

You'd better stay away from any DO or MD, and stick with those ethical homeopathic practitioners.

If you'd look at the numbers of people who trade software, books, music, and everything else online, you'll find that this doc in training is much more in the ethical mainstream than the RIAA, MPAA, or Apple.

Re:Pre-Med

[Refrag]

It's not just his action. It's his reasoning for it and his actions after he got caught that make me feel no sympathy for him.

Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Willeh]

While i don't agree with Apple's too strong stance on this (if it was an RTM copy of Tiger it would be different), BUT the portrait being painted of him as a samaritan made me very nauseous. I doubt volunteers at hospitals are exempt of NDA's, copyrights and other lala fairytales dreamed up by our corporate friends.

Bottom line: he should have known better, but Apple shouldn't be giving themselves bad press by continuing. They probably won't now after outcries like this, preferring to show some teeth to discourage potential "innocent" uploaders leaking more stuff, then back off to act as a "Benevolent" corporate entity. Maybe Steve Jobs would do some p.r. by volunteering at the same place as mr. Gentleman Pirate?

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! This potential future doctor will be dealing with patients' confidential medical records. Would you want someone who has already knowingly broken a confidentiality agreement to have access to your medical records? I know I wouldn't.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Skye16]

Actually, he said he never read the NDA. Thus it wasn't knowingly.

And who wants to read an NDA? Some people force themselves, just like people who give themselves enemas. It's essentially masochism. If he said "I didn't read the big blinking red sentence that said 'REDISTRIBUTING IS ILLEGAL'", I would buy your theory that he's lying, but who, aside from the afore mentioned masochists, read things that begin "Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Binary Code License Agreement
for the
JAVATM 2 SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT KIT (J2SDK), STANDARD
EDITION, VERSION 1.4.2_X

SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC. ("SUN") IS WILLING TO LICENSE THE SOFTWARE IDENTIFIED BELOW TO YOU ONLY UPON THE CONDITION THAT YOU ACCEPT ALL OF THE TERMS CONTAINED IN THIS BINARY CODE LICENSE AGREEMENT AND SUPPLEMENTAL LICENSE TERMS (COLLECTIVELY "AGREEMENT"). PLEASE READ THE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY. BY DOWNLOADING OR INSTALLING THIS SOFTWARE, YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT. INDICATE ACCEPTANCE BY SELECTING THE "ACCEPT" BUTTON AT THE BOTTOM OF THE AGREEMENT. IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO BE BOUND BY ALL THE TERMS, SELECT THE "DECLINE" BUTTON AT THE BOTTOM OF THE AGREEMENT AND THE DOWNLOAD OR INSTALL PROCESS WILL NOT CONTINUE..." (etc etc etc for about 82 thousand goddam pages).

I'm not saying this relieves him of responsibility, but there's a huge fucking difference between knowingly breaking a confidentiality agreement and ignorantly (and irresponsibly) breaking one. And believe me, there is no way they're going to let him be a doctor without pounding that confidentially crap into his skull.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's one thing to not read an NDA, it's another to think that you can agree to an NDA and blithely think that that it doesn't restrict your right to do anything.

If you have to agree to a contract to get a piece of software, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to think that maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't put that software up on a P2P network and hand it out willy-nilly to anyone who'll take a copy. That maybe the reason you had to agree to a contract is because your rights are being restricted.

The guy thought he was a small fish and could get away with it. He thought that he couldn't be tracked down. In other words, he's a fucking idiot. Now instead of sucking it up and being a man, he's trying to weasel out of his responsibilities. Instead he's courting public favor.

He's claiming he never read the NDA. He's claiming ignorance of simple logic (NDA = restricted rights? My bad!). He's claiming he didn't know bittorrent uploaded as he downloaded (that "upload speed" field really should be set to bold and flashing). He's claiming his entire life will come to an end if any judgement is rendered against him. He's claiming his parents were brother and sister. Or may as well should since he's acting about as smart as one.

Listen, I feel sorry for the guy, but obviously he's one of those individuals who has to learn their lessons the hard way. Just because he's a college student with limited funds doesn't mean he gets a free pass to wreak havoc on society, cutting the heads off babies and kittens and sticking them on pikes.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[utexaspunk]

No kidding. We need a law for this kind of stuff similar to the federal truth in lending laws that require you to basically put the gist of an agreement, the important details, at the top of the contract in plain english.

Better yet, since I'm sure there will still be loopholes in that sort of thing, it could be interesting if there were some sort of universal file format for legal documents (and I don't mean word perfect, har, har) where I could have one generic agreement that I read in detail once and check what I agree with, will and won't do, then when I get a new one from a manufacturer it can show me how they differ. I'd like that... ...which, I guess, means it'll never happen :)

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Skye16]

So...copyright infringement and breaking a contract is the same as baby killing and kitten slaying? O.o

(I know you were just exaggerating, I just wanted to use 'kitten slaying' in a sentence today.)

I feel sorry for the guy too. I don't want to see him think this was okay. But I'm certain that this guy is scared out of his mind. They all are. Hell, I was scared out of my mind when I got an underage drinking citation; a 150$ fine had me shitting bricks, so to speak. For 2 weeks I was hoping for death. That was 150$. I can't even imagine what 1,500$ would have been, or 15,000$, or 150,000$, or 1.5$ million dollars. I know that, financially, I would have been right out of college and working at McDonalds for the forseeable future trying to pay that off. 1500$ could be done with a semester off. 15,000$? 5-7 years. 150,000$? Never. Not in my entire life will I have 150,000$ spare money to spend.

Chances are amazingly great that, with 5-7 years off, I would never be going back to college. I'd be flipping burgers or scrubbing toilets. Being overly enthusiastic and extremely shortsighted should not result in the ruination of your entire life. What benefit are you to society if you're making minimum wage and scrubbing a toilet as opposed to making 100,000$+ a year, with about 30,000$ of that going to pay taxes? And how is getting 300$ payments a month from a guy making minimum wage for the rest of his life going to do ANYTHING to help recoup supposed losses resulting from these "damages"? It makes no sense.

Scare the shit out of him. Scare the shit out of the rest of the people who read about how absolutely terrified this kid is. Then let him go. No one is going to benefit by crushing his opportunity to be a relatively beneficial member of society and relegating him to food-stamps poor.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[American AC in Paris]

Actually, he said he never read the NDA. Thus it wasn't knowingly.

...so he signed a legally-binding agreement without reading it? And you're defending this mind-bogglingly foolish behavior?

So it's long. Boo-fucking-hoo. If you can't handle spending a couple hours reading and comprehending a contract before signing, get a lawyer to read and comprehend it for you. Just because you may not take a contract all that seriously doesn't mean the other party shares your disinterest.

OTHERWISE, don't go signing legally binding agreements without knowing what you're getting into!

I'm not saying this relieves him of responsibility, but there's a huge fucking difference between knowingly breaking a confidentiality agreement and ignorantly (and irresponsibly) breaking one.

Not in the eyes of the law, there isn't. If you're going to sign a contract, you'd damn well better understand what you're signing--and don't be surprised when you're expected to live up to your end of the deal. Not bothering to read and understand a legally binding document is every bit as willful as understanding and violating said document--especially when the issue at hand isn't some niggling interpretation of language but an obvious and blatant violation of the core concept of the agreement.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that bugs me is I'm sure Apple is intentionally scaring the crap out of the guy - just as I'm sure they want to work out a settlement. Legally they have to file a lawsuit. They have to defend their work. That's how the law works. If you don't defend the corporation's property, by and large they'll lose some legal protections.

But they can't hammer out a settlement if the guy isn't going to hire a lawyer. They can't hammer out the settlement if the guy is running around to media outlets and bleating like a wounded sheep instead of figuring out how to raise money for his lawyer.

For chrissakes, he downloaded a prerelease copy of Tiger. He's got to have something a little newer than a Mac Plus to run it on. Sell it. Better yet, use the massive pity machine you've created to your favor and pubically announce you're putting it up on eBay to pay for your legal fees. I'm sure someone's so taken with his act that they'll give him enough for a lawyer's retainer and then some.

But doing nothing after being alerted to actions being taken due to your past wrongdoings just isn't going to go well for you, no matter what part of the world you inhabit.

(BTW, I had to work in the concept of putting babies heads on pikes last time. As for myself, I blame Eddie Izzard!)

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Skye16]

I believe that's WHY he's running around bleating like a wounded sheep. How in the hell else is he going to drum up support to pay for it? Just from reading that article, Wozniak stated he was going to donate 1000$ to the fund. By playing the scared kid (which most of us can relate to at some time or another), he's tugging on our heart strings, and through them, gaining access to our loot. Then again, I'm not so sure he's playing...but he IS getting mad exposure and, theoretically, lots of funding to help with this.

Keep in mind, as I said before in other posts, anything more than 150$ is probably too much for a college student, much less the tens of thousands of dollars it will take to retain a lawyer.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Skye16]

Yes, everything is cut and dry and you can NEVER look at the situation as it happened in human terms. He signed the NDA, thus he completely understood every facet of it, and then knowingly and maliciously intended to harm Apple and their ability to compete, and thus, Apple deserves a multi-hojillion dollar award and this guy deserves to rot in McDonalds for all eternity (or until he blows his head off 2 months from the award is granted)...all because we, as people, are completely incapable of looking at things from a humanely rational frame of reference (ie: taking into account human nature).

Taking into account human nature does NOT relieve him of responsibility. But it SHOULD mitigate some of the trouble he's in.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[American AC in Paris]

Taking into account human nature does NOT relieve him of responsibility. But it SHOULD mitigate some of the trouble he's in.

How do you mitigate the fact that he went and violated the single most central tenet of the contract he signed? This is on par with trying to keep your home by saying that you didn't bother to read the mortgage before you signed it, and thus didn't really understand that you had to make monthly payments on your loan!

Like I said at the end of my post, this isn't a debate over some dubious interpretation of three words nested in sub-paragraph thirteen of section six. This is a willful and blatant violation of the very core of the agreement! Hell, even if he hadn't read anything beyond "Non Disclosure Agreement", he'd know that what he did was in violation of at least the spirit of the agreement.

I'm not arguing that he should be gutted and dried for display. I'm simply saying that there is absolutely no way he should garner sympathy because he didn't even read a contract before signing it.

I am looking at the situation in human terms. What this guy did was an obvious and blatant breach of a legally-binding contract. There is simply no way he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, save for a stunningly high level of stupidity that, frankly, is precluded by the fact that he's smart and saavy enough about filesharing (and the issues surrounding IP) to go about launching a BitTorrent seed. He's looking for sympathy he honestly doesn't deserve. I do feel sorry for the poor bastard, but it's the same kind of sorry I feel for the type of person who gets carted to the hospital with carbon monoxide poisoning after trying to tune his engine with the garage door closed.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[jcenters]

Bottom line: he should have known better, but Apple shouldn't be giving themselves bad press by continuing. They probably won't now after outcries like this, preferring to show some teeth to discourage potential "innocent" uploaders leaking more stuff, then back off to act as a "Benevolent" corporate entity.

Maybe their strategy is to team up with Woz for a good-cop / bad-cop thing. Sort of like this:

Jobs: You damn kid! That'll be the last time you steal my software!

Jobs charges at the kid, then Woz grabs him, struggling to hold him back.

Kid: I'm sorry Mr. Jobs. It's just that Tiger looked so shiny and delicious! I couldn't help myself!

Jobs: *growls*, bites at the kid, still held back by Woz's muscular arms

Kid: *cries* I'll never do it again!

Woz: You better run, kid. I can't hold him for much longer.

Kid runs away screaming, Jobs and Woz burst into laughter and high-fives.

Jobs: That was fun, let's go grab a cappuccino.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where/When/How did he sign the contract?

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[ltbarcly]

He probably isn't going to have to pay any money. The publicity is going to do exactly what Apple hoped to do with the fine, convince people it isn't worth it to release beta Apple software into the wild. Once all the publicity dies down Apple will probably just let him off the hook (although now that he has this defense fund they'll probably want that, he certainly has no right to it if the case is dropped).

I have never understood the Warez mentality. Oh, sure, I'll gladly download from bittorrent all day, but why would someone put themselves at risk just to let other people download software?

Perhaps it is because they have a philosophy where charging for software, or charging too much for software is wrong. They would have to be pretty retarded for this to be the reason though, since Warez certainly HELPS non-free software compete against free software in the long run. Every person who downloads Photoshop, who wouldn't have gone out and bought it, is actually helping Adobe. They are learning a propriatary program. At worst they get free use out of it. At best they will become skilled at it and someday use it at a job. When they are employed they will want to use Photoshop, and the business will purchase it (or if the business already uses it then there will be more available skilled people, driving the wage down, which encourages them to keep using it).

If Warez weren't available, then this person would probably use The Gimp or something, now repeat the above argument, except The Gimp gets wider use. Plus this guy will show all his friends how he got this awesome peice of software, and it's free!

I guess Warez is best explained by some kind of nerd fetish for getting software, and the 'leetness' of letting people download it.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, if he was willing to make personal sacrifices like selling off personal belongings to raise cash, he wouldn't need everyone to foot bills for a mistake he made. Leaving school for a couple years until the dust settles, allowing him to sell off more belongings than would be possible if he stayed in school, it wouldn't mark the end of his life.

I just hope he doesn't sucker enough people out of cash so he isn't forced to make some kind of a personal sacrifice. I just don't see how he'll learn anything if he gets off scott free by sympathetic rich bitches footing all his legal bills.

If it doesn't require sacrifice, he's just not going to learn the error of his ways, and could easily make an error in ethics even more heinous later - the stakes then wouldn't be a simple NDA, they could easily be a case of patient vs. HMO.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just for the record, Apple sends out DVD copies of the operating system seeds to ADC members (best $500 I spend every year). Since this incident, each shippment of the DVD has had a single sheet of paper reminding developers to not redistribute.

If the company had been Microsoft, there would be a third CD in the envelope with a copy of the contract.

If the company had been Sun, the CDs would be slipped inside the 500 printed sheets of the license agreement.

If the company had been SCO, there would be a bill for $699 to pay before you got the software.

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser?

[drunkenbatman]

I can certainly say he's not getting 'mad funding', and if you'll notice there's no 'donate' link or anything like that. :/

My impression is that he's really averse to asking people to pay for his own mistake...

Undisclosed Sum

[wren337]

This would be a great place to see them settle for an "undisclosed sum" (like a dollar), on condition that neither party discuss the matter further. Everyone wins; Apple doesn't publicly "back down", and the guy gets his life back.

Or they could grind his bones to make their bread, whatever. I don't know him.

Re:Undisclosed Sum

[Anonymous Coward]

But they can't settle for an undisclosed sum if the dumbshit doesn't hire a lawyer to hammer out the settlement in the first place.

This guy is claiming to be the ultimate lamb in the woods, going to the press and bleating his case to anyone who'll listen, and then doesn't want to suffer at all for his actions, namely by hiring a lawyer to represent his interests.

I feel sorry for the guy but you know what, I don't buy his act - which means I don't want him to be my doctor in 10 years - and I think he should suck it up and do whatever's necessary to get through this without pulling pity strings on everyone who'll listen.

Drop out of college, sell his worldly possessions (if he's installing OSX he's got to at least have a Mac of recent vintage, and that'd get him at least halfway there - possibly the entire way if he uses this massive publicity stunt to his auction's favor), whatever, just get that lawyer to help you out.

Re:Undisclosed Sum

[justins]

This would be a great place to see them settle for an "undisclosed sum" (like a dollar), on condition that neither party discuss the matter further. Everyone wins; Apple doesn't publicly "back down", and the guy gets his life back.

They could have accomplished that much with just a cease-and-desist order. Clearly, these are criminal masterminds who must be stopped. And made to pay!

Re:Undisclosed Sum

[danila]

No, it wouldn't. But I am sure everyone would have much more respect for Apple, if it openly offered the guy to pay 1000$ compensation to them and have it settled. Apple can publicly state that redistributing their software is wrong, but they don't want to harm people.

That's it.

Re:Undisclosed Sum

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely punish them! But thousands of dollars in debt is not punishment in my opinion. Make them work and make ammends.

Personally I agree with one of the developers from the article (yes I read TFA). I think that they should do community service.

This way they still get to dish out a hard punishment to discourage people/stupidity (say 100 hours of community service), yet they get to do something good for the community and even for the boys who will have definitely learned their lesson.

v

who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

it's just some puppy do0de sharing his warez. He got caught and made an example of. tough shit, better luck next time

no story here

Re:who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't think that it's wrong to 'make an example' of someone then? tell me, how would you like it? You deserve fair punishment, not excess punishment to try and deter others - this is still a person we're talking about.

Nah - Let the case continue

[the_Bionic_lemming]

I say Jobs should take this to court.

It'll give me lots of jabs to toss at a guy I work with who is as firmly entrenched as a Mac dude as I am a PC dude.

Heck, I hear about it when Gates and Microsoft do stupid stuff , so why not give me some more ammunition as Jobs gets laughed out of court? It's got all the delicious points - A kid running a web site sued out of existance over disclosing something that ultimately proved to be a mountain out of a molehill. :)

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about someone that made available Apple copyrighted software on Bittorrent. This is clearly illegal and should be punished.

Not the legal cases against the sites that released information early. Apple have stopped these anyway, or put them on hold until everybody has calmed down.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[Anonymous Coward]

I say Jobs should take this to court.

Agreed 100%. Watching every single one of the sycophantic MacFucks indulging in such perfectly synchronised GroupThink in defence of their beloved corporation is absolutely priceless.

Keep it up guys! That multi billion Dollar company sure does need your help. Maybe they'll give you all free dual G5s as a token of thanks. Or maybe they couldn't give a flying fuck. Which d'ya think's more likely?

"Think Different" indeed.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[the_Bionic_lemming]

No - this is a lawsuit on a Beta release that the lawsuit claims permanent and egregious damages from.

One would be led to belive that apple will lose the company all over the leak of a beta.. developer.. safari...

So now, some kid in Canada is facing fighting a lawsuit in California where no matter what - He's screwed financially no matter which way he goes. Over something that won't cost apple a dime.

Nice.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[bynary]

How the heck did parent get modded +4 Funny? That's not even remotely funny.

And, no, Steve Jobs will not get laughed out of court. Do you honestly think that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates go to court to defend these things? FCOL, they hire hundreds of lawyers to do that for them. Apple's lawyers won't get laughed out of court either, because this guy did leak Apple's pre-release software onto the 'net. It appears that this guy's only chance to break free from this is for Apple to drop the suit or lighten the charges.

"Your honor, I did not read the contract before I signed it. Who reads those things anyways?" What a weak defense.

I do hope Apple lightens up though.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[the_Bionic_lemming]

"What are the Damages?"

"Uh - Damages"?

"Yes, Damages"

"TRillions of dollars worth of sales?" //sarcastic voice

"trillions?" //nervous cough

"Millions?"

"Millions? Are you sure?"

"Err - Well, We think Microsoft ran out to copy our new button Design".

"Did they now - What release is it included in?

"None yet, But we're sure they incorporated it, and that's cost Apple Thousands at least".

Thousands?

"Yeah, the new button design would of made that one kid down the street stop being a windows user because of the new button design." //muffled laughter

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[lxs]

a guy I work with who is as firmly entrenched as a Mac dude as I am a PC dude.

Reading that, I suspect that you both need to get out more.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[Anonymous Coward]

How the heck did parent get modded +4 Funny? That's not even remotely funny.

In Slashdot's broken moderation system, modding someone "Funny" is an effective way to destroy their Karma.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[the_Bionic_lemming]

Reading that, I suspect that you both need to get out more

You must be new here - after all, this is slashdot... :)

Re:Nah - Let the case continue

[Anonymous Coward]

Scum! Why Do You Hate Apple???!!!?? (stupid lameness filter, I meant for this to be in caps with two lines of question marks!)

The Woz

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Steve Wozniak is a genuinely good man. Too bad he's not in charge.

I don't think Apple is a good company. If Apple were a market leader, advances in PC technology would come to a grinding halt. They are far and away the most predatory company in the market.

The only thing Mac has going is it's fanbase. If they start making news for prosecuting their fans they will alienate the last 3% of the market willing to put up with them.

Remember Apple going after the other kid for leaking "trade secrets"? I think we're beginning to see a trend.

Re:The Woz

[scenestar]

Steve wozniak looks at this case from the oldskool hacker perspective. He didnt start for profit but for fun.

His hobby however turened into a billion dollar company and A company's attitude towards the release of Alpha stage software is different then that of an 80's hacker

Re:The Woz

[Anonymous Coward]

The kid leaking trade secrets was a stupid obsessed fan with too much time on his hands running a gutter gossip site which only obsessed Mac iZombies read and I say that as a long time Mac user. I have no idea why people hold him up as some 'hero' and go 'boo hoo, poor kid. Apple stop being so mean to him boo hoo'. The kid was a little fuckwit with a scum bag site and he encorouged Apple employees to break their NDAs. What a top guy. Let's make him President.

Re:The Woz

[infinii]

Advances would stop?

Here's an honest question. Do you really think your computing experience has improved that greatly on your spiffy new 3.4Ghz P4 compared to back when you had a P2 class machine?

IMO it hasn't. You've gone from Win95 to WinXP.

Look at the Apple scene now. OS 9 to OS X, now that's progress.

Re:The Woz

[Anonymous Coward]

"OS 9 to OS X, now that's progress."

Stick a Mac Gui on top of BSD. Rebadge a load of FOSS as your own and you are away...

Re:The Woz

[toddestan]

Here's an honest question. Do you really think your computing experience has improved that greatly on your spiffy new 3.4Ghz P4 compared to back when you had a P2 class machine?

IMO it hasn't. You've gone from Win95 to WinXP.

If you can't tell the difference between Windows 95 and Windows XP you need to get your head checked. Seriously. (Though, 90% of the differences came in at the Windows 9x -> Windows 2000 jump, but I could say the same about the jump to OSX 10.0).

If you want to see some progress, compare the Linux distro's from 7 years ago to the ones today. On the OSS side of things, I haven't seen any stagnation, everything gets better everyday.

Re:The Woz

[Anonymous Coward]

Candy buttons do not an advancement make. You've traded one bluescreen for another, which isn't much of an improvement.

There was no real jump from Windows 9x -> Windows 2000, unless you're kind of new around here. Windows 2000 is NT v5.0. XP is NT v5.1. And of course, Windows NT 4.0 = NT v4.0, and so on back to 3.1 which was really NT v1.0 but Microsoft called it 3.1 because Windows 3.1 had shipped and they wanted to confuse as many people as possible. Just like they did by calling v5.0 Windows 2000.

Hell, NT4's most obvious new feature was a grafted-on Windows 95 interface, which had been stuck in the old unhelpful, unimaginative 16-bit Windows paradigm since 3.1. To go from NT4 to XP is not a much of a jump (well, aside from new hardware support and a myriad of bugs fixed that they flat-out refuse to fix under NT4, citing compatibility issues, despite NT4 & NT5 being virtually identical except for a few select bits - hence their refusal to fix it by upgrading those bits to be fixable). Besides renaming folders left and right and bloating the system down with useless crap like .NET, the interface is pretty much just Windows '95 with shiny candy buttons.

The fundamental difference between upgrading from OS9 to OSX and upgrading from Windows '95 to XP is that less of your existing software & hardware will work properly under XP than OSX. An unbelievable number of Win9x software exploits it's lax Win32 implementation (exploit being a little harsh, programming laziness is primarily to blame). With rare exceptions if your software survived the transition to OS9, the software will work properly running under OSX - Apple changed wholesale portions of OS9 so it could run under the BlueBox. Half of the pain of the transition was over and done with a year or two before OSX 10.0 shipped.

And let's remember, that compatibility will be the part that regular users will expect to stay the same and be the most memorable part of the upgrade process. They don't care that XP Home has a brain-dead fundamentally hobbled networking core because MS wants another $400 from each system to buy Pro.

Though if they went from 9x to XP, I expect the whole BSOD-on-boot-due-to-non-NT-compatible-driver-insta lled bit will be the absolutely most memorable.

Timothy Hatcher, lead developer of Colloquy:

[Anonymous Coward]

"For Apple to start sinking to this level is very troubling to me (with the recent lawsuit against the rumor-mills as well). Growing up with Apple products I have always had pride to be an Apple user.
Actions like this have made me wonder really who is running things, Steve Jobs or bloodthirsty lawyers. It's painful to watch a company grow up like this. From the final days of Woz up until now it has been a bumpy ride."

This sums up my feelings about Apple and the course they are taking pretty well. What has become of this great company that was different and likable?

Re:Timothy Hatcher, lead developer of Colloquy:

[IamTheRealMike]

What makes you think it's not Steve Jobs that encourages and re-inforces this atmosphere? You know how he throws enormous hissy fits when his secrets leak.

Re:Timothy Hatcher, lead developer of Colloquy:

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

What do you do for a living Tim? Are you willing to start working for free now? This is an open and shut case of software piracy. A guy grabbed a limited beta release for developers, then put it up on bittorrent. The other case you mention was pretty clear, for profit, industrial espionage. For all the talk about Apple having an army of rabid lawyers, they are really very good about this sort of thing. In the rumor's site case, they are suing for the identity of the leak, who broke his NDA. They aren't going after money or trying to ruin anyone. In this case, Apple is going after someone who posted a beta of their new OS for anyone who wanted it. If I spent a year writing some new software, then some bastard posted it for free on bittorrent I'd sue his ass too.

Small Fries

[GR1NCH]

Honestly, I think the whole deal is bullshit. Its just the big exec's lashing out at small fries because they can't get their hands on the big fish. Guess what? The real pirates out there aren't scared by you suing a college student that knows nothing about computers and had to have someone teach him how to seed a file. In fact they probably feel safer knowing that you are wasting your time suing this kid instead of them.

Re:Small Fries

[cioxx]

What you're describing here is not Apple.

There is no 'big fish' pirate group breathing down Apple's neck like few notable groups do with Discreet and Steinberg, defeating any elaborate anti-piracy scheme days after it is put into place. 99% of Mac software is either freely installed on multiple machines or can be enabled by a serial key.

The real pirate, in this case, is Joe Sixpack with an ADC account.

If Apple fails to enforce their NDA, it could be damaging to the company. On the other hand, if they sue the shit out of this guy and few of his accomplices, the developer community and "fanatics" would get outraged. It's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

Personally, I'd like to see this guy face the consequences in 10k increments. I do, time to time, download something which is not quite legit, but even I'm not stupid enough to touch an official beta seed assigned to my account.

Having read the interview with desicanuk on drunkenblog, and knowing his medical aspirations, perhaps the world would be better served if he didn't apply such excellent decision-making in the operating room.

Re:Small Fries

[Ohreally_factor]

perhaps the world would be better served if he didn't apply such excellent decision-making in the operating room.

Actually, when you think about it, he's getting an invaluable experience that will come in handy the first time he's sued for malpractice.

Prerelease

[cyberfunk2]

I think Tiger-pre-release should be made available to ALL ADC members (ADC signup is free). Then you'd still have everyone under the NDA, and no one who didnt want it or wasnt qualified to mess with it would get burned by a partially developed OS.

I mean, sure I see the point of making people pay for the final version. But for the betas, it seems like the more qualified testers they have the better. Besides, not all developers can afford full ADC memberships with all those software dl keys, they're freaking expensive !

Re:Prerelease

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you don't really know much about the software seeding in the Premium ADC accounts, bub.

Here's a hint: If you take the last posted build of an OS before the retail version, you have the retail version. Software Update works on it. Apps install and work on it.

Millions of Mac users would sign up and download Tiger build 8F61 (or whatever the hell the build number is) and Apple wouldn't make nearly as high of a return on their product, /and/ they'd be paying for the bandwidth to give it away.

(This was posted from a machine using the last posted build of Panther, updated all the way to 10.3.8.)

Re:Prerelease

[badfish99]

If you know where to look, it's easy to find "pirated" copies of any OS you like. Panther, Windows XP, RHEL,... it's all there.

But it doesn't stop people from buying software from Apple, or Microsoft, does it? So how is this hurting Apple, any more than free music downloads are hurting the RIAA?

Surnames.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it asking too much to ask to write 'Desicanuk' beginning with a capital letter? After all, it is a name.

Re:Greed

[profet]

Apple sues over pre-release of upgrade that consumers are asked to pay for, and people don't agree with the policy? Who'd of thunk it?

Welcome to the real world...

The real problem is that you don't agree with apple's naming conventions.

Call a product Windows 98 and then change it's "upgrade" to Windows Me (please no ME jokes...) and everything is dandy.

Call a product OS X 10.3 and then its "upgrade" OS X 10.4 and people moan and bitch.

The truth of the matter is, $129 ($99 for students) for a new operating system is a steal. If you can't afford it, fine, no reason for you to upgrade. Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

bleh

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you expect any less from apple?

apple is a corporation
google is a corporation
ibm is a corporation
novel is a corporation
amd is a corporation
intel is a corporation
nvidia and ATI are corporations

why do people even bother to be "fan bois" for these legal entities who's sole purpose is to get more profit for their shareholders? How can you be a fan boy of that?

It's pure fking bs, the sooner they all go flaming down to hell the better.

Long live debian, long live gentoo, long live the BSDs... long live people getting together and doing shit without wearing some corporate logo like some fucking first-year uni marketing rep organised beer party.

God some people are dumb.

Re:bleh

[Anonymous Coward]

Long live debian, long live gentoo, long live the BSDs... long live people getting together and doing shit without wearing some corporate logo like some fucking first-year uni marketing rep organised beer party.

Long live Red Hat and SuSE as well, charging money for free software. Novell bought SuSE. BUT WHY for fuck sake when Linux and the pile of gloop that comes with it in every distro is FREE.

Heck I think I'll join the Mandrake club ? Whats that you say ? I have to pay ? Why ? Linux, X, KDE, GNOME, Open Office, Gimp etc etc etc are free ? Why is some fuckwit who sticks it on 3 CDs and calls it Mandrake getting money for it ?

God some people are dumb.

You said it buddy

summary...

[constantnormal]

1) Kid signs up for limited freebee ADC membership, knowing that it does not include access to Tiger beta, in order to have "real" developer (who should certainly know better) place a d/l seed in his area. -- mildly unethical.

2) Kid, excited with his "prize", sends it out to his web "buddies" so they can share in the radiant joy. Exceedingly stoopid.

3) A restricted beta of a product Apple intends to make hundreds of millions of $$$ from is released into the wild for free. Entirely predictable.

4) Apple gets justifiably upset, sues all in sight. About all that Apple can do at this point is make an example of them.

5) The Woz feels sorry that the Kid is getting punished for his unthinking brush with Reality, donates $1000 to his defense.

So what can we learn from this?

1) Apple needs to tighten up ability to transfer software assets between classes of ADC members.

2) Kids (or anyone) that act in an unthinking manner can expect to be educated. Think of it as Evolution in Action.

3) People will gawk at a grisly highway accident, whether on concrete or etherial roadways.

Move along folks.

Re:summary...

[nutshell42]

3) A restricted beta of a product Apple intends to make hundreds of millions of $$$ from is released into the wild for free. Entirely predictable

And it doesn't affect their bottomline a bit. Come on it's a *beta* for a reason and as soon as they start shipping Tiger, shipping millions of *rippable* CDs I might add, you're gonna find ISOs of the release version on every p2p net. I really don't see why they're making such a fuss about a leaked beta

Re:summary...

[Alioth]

He's 23. He's not a kid. He's an adult who's old enough to drink alcohol, to serve for his country as an officer, to drive a heavy truck, to fly an airliner full of paying passengers. He's an adult fully responsible for his own actions. Although I don't think this action merits his career/financial life being ruined essentially in perpetuity, he deserves to be LARTed.

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple gets justifiably upset, sues all in sight.

More like, Apple's management performs their fiduciary duty to secure their property in such a situation.

Re:summary...

[Vellmont]

Why is the big mantra on slashdot "this guy is stupid!", as if this is the ultimate sin? I guess "stupid" people don't deserve anything but contempt. Calling someone stupid is the new kike/nigger/dago/wop/chink/gook/raghead/fag/guinea /kraut.

Did I leave anyone out?

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry you're offended, moron.

Re:summary...

[hawk]

5) The Woz feels sorry that the Kid is getting punished for his unthinking brush with Reality, donates $1000 to his defense.

Of course, this *could* just be Woz having flashbacks . . . :)

hawk

Re:summary...

[justins]

Kids (or anyone) that act in an unthinking manner can expect to be educated. Think of it as Evolution in Action.

While you're almost certainly just quoting a crappy science fiction novel in an effort to be cute, everyone ought to think about this for a minute: do you really want a legal system based on Social Darwinism?

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry if the concept of a possible doctor performing a stupid action like this, which has both real-world legal as well as moral implications, doesn't net a "stupid" tag for you.

I suppose your parents were brother and sister, and therefore you're sensitive to criticism of "stupid" people?

Or maybe you're just a fan of NASCAR.

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's say a college kid gets drunk at a party, drives off, and kills someone in a drunk driving accident. Pure stupidity at work. Feel bad for the college kid? Sure. But you got to feel worse for the victim.

Now, I'm not equating that example with the Apple thing here. Drunk driving is much more serious than pirating some files. But I wouldn't forgive the college kid for stupidity if it cost someone his or her life. So yeah, sometimes stupidity is the ultimate sin.

Re:summary...

[Idarubicin]

Why is the big mantra on slashdot "this guy is stupid!", as if this is the ultimate sin? I guess "stupid" people don't deserve anything but contempt.

You're right. On the face of the matter, it isn't fair. Some people are less intelligent than others, through unfortunate circumstances of upbringing or genetics.

On the other hand, this guy is a pre-med student. By the classic standards of our society he isn't (or shouldn't be) stupid. He should be very, very, smart. What he's done here doesn't look too bright, and it stems from a lack of common sense as well as loose ethical principles.

So he should be correctly described as a dumbass.

Glad we could clear that up.

Re:summary...

[Vellmont]

I don't have a problem with actually calling someone stupid, or a dumbass. My problem comes in when it's used in such a way that it seperates people from their humanity. Just like calling someone a nigger, kike, etc does. There seems to be a culture on slashdot that sees to world this way, and quite frankly I'm tired of that attitude.

I do like dumbass a bit better though as it doesn't seem to imply an inherent lack of smarts, just a temporary one.

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

to serve for his country as an officer, to drive a heavy truck, to fly an airliner full of paying passengers.

Afaik you still need a license to drive a truck or fly an airplane therefore not every adult is considered 'able' to do these. Unless, they have that license. Which not every adult has, especially not the fly-license.

Re:summary...

[nordicfrost]

You (or I for that matter) don't think like the stock market. Remember the launch of the Mac mini? And iPod shuffle? The rumour sites got leaked info from Apple insiders and hit the nail on the head with the info on MM and IS. Thus the presentation held by Jobs in San Fransisco was characterised as "only meeting expectations" by a lot of people and the stock SANK by 4%. You and I know this is insane, as the shuffle sells like hotcakes and the mini is what the industry has wanted for years. But, like a leaked beta hitting the press, this leads to negative press for Apple and may risk the stock price. I know that a beta is by definition not perfect, but dumber people don't. And they tend to write about it. Just look at all the inane chatter about Longhorn.

Re:summary...

[chibimagic]

1) Kid signs up for limited freebee ADC membership, knowing that it does not include access to Tiger beta, in order to have "real" developer (who should certainly know better) place a d/l seed in his area. -- mildly unethical

A better question would be why Apple isn't going after the "real" developer who gave it to him? After all, the ADC agreement for his free account wouldn't have anything to do with the Tiger beta, since he wouldn't have had access to it anyway. The developer who gave him the seed is the one who agreed to a NDA and then broke it.

Re:summary...

[nutshell42]

OTOH Apple fanboys will gossip no matter what. Chances are they'll often be correct about a few facts but if you don't have "official information" ,i.e. leaks, to keep the speculation in check I'll wager that Jobs often won't meet expectations because the fanboys were over-optimistic.

Also it's not like the stock doesn't rise before Macworld, etc. if there are some juicy rumors floating around =)

Re:summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

3) A restricted beta of a product Apple intends to make hundreds of millions of $$$ from is released into the wild for free. Entirely predictable.

You know, in all this hullabaloo, I completely lost sight of the fact that this beta might still be floating around somewhere to download. How come more people aren't talking about this? ;-)

Actually...

[Dr. q00p]

...I agree. A M.D. that is both ignorant and sloppy. Luckily we've never seen that before...

I stand corrected...

[ites]

OK, OK, so Apple definitely sell software. I must have been asleep when I wrote the opposite.

There's no debate. I like Apple as much as the rest of you (and my AAPL shares justify my faith in the company).

String the farker up by the nuts.

Apple fanboys make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

I just can't take it any more, all those Apple fanboys on /. make me sick. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about Apple and they really do make some great products but that doesn't mean that everything is fine and dandy.

Wether they are trying to ruin a 23 year old who released a pre-release of the new OSX to 20 people (OMG! let's kill him), wether they are trying to ruin a 20 year old Apple fanatic, who is running a site posting rumors about Apple, whether they refuse to open their most successfull product in a way that allows to use it with anything other than Apple's own music store, everything is great according to the Apple fanboys here.

I've got news for you, it isn't. Just because Apple does it doesn't make it right, on the contrary, one could argue that one should expect different from a company that claims to be different.

Re:Apple fanboys make me sick

[pclminion]

I'll grant you the right to hold your opinion about Apple fanboys, if you grant us the fact that not every Apple user falls under that definition.

I'm personally tired of being called a "fanboy" just because I decided to buy a Mini for the hell of it.

As for the topic at hand... I think Apple's true concern should be finding the individual who leaked the disc from inside the company. Perhaps they should offer to let the guy off the hook if he explains where the thing came from.

That IS a good reason

[scenestar]

A teen's brain is chemically underdevelloped compared to an adult's.

Therefore they perceive things in a different manner and have a hard time asessing rights from wrongs and foreseeing the cosequences of their actions.

There is a reason why teens aren't trialed as an adult (at least not in europe)

Re:That IS a good reason

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not a teen. He's 23.

Marketing backfires

[LourensV]

You know, this is an example of a bigger problem. Companies have got incredibly good at getting people to want their products. They've got the psychology down. People want, no, need this cell phone, this music, these movies, these clothes, this Tiger OS, and it's all thanks to the marketing departments.

The problem is, the same companies are paying minimum wages, and lobbying for tax cuts, so that these customers don't have the money to pay for these products. Or, as in this specific case, they're simply not yet available. But people need them.

I think most people know that getting stuff illegally is wrong in some sense. But the companies have got their customers hooked and needy, and the customers can't afford the product. And technology has made it very easy to get the product in a way that does not bring the company any profit. There is a lot of psychological pressure on people to get stuff, and the "this is wrong" barrier does not stand up to it. Especially if everyone is doing it.

Companies see it differently. They see people who download their product instead of buying it. They see behaviour they do not want. And just as the Marketing department controls what people do, they've chosen the Legal department to control what people don't do.

In this case, they got these kids all worked up, they were big Mac fans, and they just needed to get a glimpse of Tiger. They couldn't resist Apple's marketing. So they went for it in the only way possible, and now they're getting sued.

Was wat he did illegal? Yes, he did violate the NDA (and didn't read it, which was stupid to boot). Was it wrong? Maybe. But was it his fault?

No way.

The question remains:

[earthbound kid]

Who is DrunkenBatman?

Some have speculated that DrunkenBatman is DrunkenBruceWayne, a theory I too once believed. However, after I publicly aired my suspicions, he and I were kidnapped by the DrunkenPenguin then saved by DrunkenBatman. So I've seen DrunkenBruceWayne and DrunkenBatman, together. ...However, I should note, where was DrunkenRobin during all this? Just hanging around the DrunkenBatcave? We can only drunkenly speculate, I guess.

Re:The question remains:

[IamScared]

No, no. The fact that you saw DrunkenBatman and DrunkenBruceWayne together doesn't prove anything. The DrunkenBatman you saw was DrunkenAlfred, who got drunk and used the wrong clothes :)

NDA and Opensource BSD License.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just how can a NDA restrict the redistribution of an opensource based OS?

If it's 50% based on BSD software does this mean they can only sue for 50% of damages?

Re:NDA and Opensource BSD License.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you haven't read the BSD licence: it basically lets you do anything you like with it, even Windows has got BSD code in it. The GPL has restrictions, whereas the BSD lets you take ownership.

Re:NDA and Opensource BSD License.

[IamTheRealMike]

The vast majority of code in MacOS is proprietary just like Windows is. This includes things like IOKit which are pretty low level - remember the BSD license lets you take but not give back (which is basically what happened with FreeBSD)

Re:NDA and Opensource BSD License.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to introduce you to a little friend of mine. His name is copyleft.

If I was Apple

[FidelCatsro]

And if tiger was a bit of music or art or something i was working on . Then some guy(23 is not a kid , I'm 23 I stopped being a kid a long time ago) I was showing it to , decided to make a copy of the work and hand it out. I imagine i would be rather pissed off , and probably want to punch the guy, so from this i can understand the actions of apple up to this point.
But that would be it , I doubt he will do it again .He has suffered his virtual punch from Apple,Although he comes out with the "I'm so Naive" Which would probably make me want him to suffer a while longer for coming out with such a load of nonsense .

Now as much as i believe that all software should follow the GNU way , I also respect the rights of developers to decide how they distribute the work they have created.
distributing Commercial software over Bittorent in the USA is not a good idea , its playing with fire and if you're caught you will get burnt.
I do feel sorry for him though

Re:If I was Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but anyone who writes as atrociously as you do most definitely is a "kid".

Please write properly. You learned how in school-- now please do it!

Re:If I was Apple

[meadowsp]

Come on Fidel, no-one believes that "I'm 23 (again)".

Re:If I was Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are a tosser

Re:If I was Apple

[duffel]

23 is not a kid , I'm 23 I stopped being a kid a long time ago

Really? I'm 22, and I don't recall ever having stopped being a kid. Does this mean I get to suddenly grow up sometime during the next year?

Obviously, it's a gradual process. I know kids that are more mature than most adults, and I know thirty year old children. Growing up is in part a measure of the experience the world has thrown your way, and has no straight boundaries. It is most certainly possible that in this region his naivity is genuine.

That said, I agree with you, but he's not the only one playing with fire. I bet Apple stands to lose far more by alienating it's loyal customer base by altering its image than they can gain with this lawsuit, even considering it's potential discouragement of future pirates.

Re:If I was Apple

[FidelCatsro]

in most countries you legaly stop being a child at 16,18 or 21 .

Re:If I was Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

...or 35 (In the US, I can't run for president until I'm 35).

Re:If I was Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

;) and looking at your current president , i dont see how that even stops children getting in ,

Re:If I was Apple

[duffel]

Exactly. Even governments can't agree on when people grow up. There is no clear line between being a child and being an adult.

Re:Greed

[ozric99]

The truth of the matter is, $129 ($99 for students) for a new operating system is a steal. If you can't afford it, fine, no reason for you to upgrade. Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

I don't mean to upset those queued up in the "can I please blow you mr jobs" line but you'd have a point if MS charged for SP2 - it didnt. My only exposure to OSX is troubleshooting the problems my mother has with it, however, how on earth is charging for what are really nothing more than service packs a good thing? The Apple-Worship on here is nothing but astonishing.

Regarding the interview

[benja]

Somewhat off-topic, but it amuses the hell out of me when people call copyright infringement "piracy" but then believe that not all copyright infringement is piracy.

From the interview (one of the admins of the bittorrent tracker speaking):

[T]he tracker isn't built on pirated files. Drivers, service manuals, user guides, and old games which are not available anymore or are from companies which no longer exist. There are videos of recent events and old favorites which you can't buy. I have never seen the tracker without a significant amount of files which aren't pirated.

You see, all of these are copyrighted unless they're around a hundred years old (depending on jurisdiction). Of course distributing them is not copyright infringement ("piracy") if you have permission by the copyright holders, but I highly doubt this site has permission to distribute those service manuals and -- especially -- games.

Just because the company making them is gone doesn't mean there isn't a copyright holder -- there's always some creditor happy to pick them up. They may not sell the game any more (at least currently), but that matters zilch. They may not be suing you because they don't have enough to gain from it, but that doesn't mean they can't and it doesn't mean that this isn't copyright infringement.

Yes, it sucks. You see, that's one reason why some people think copyright law sucks. Especially with the super-long copyright terms of today.

I find people annoying who copy old proprietary games, don't feel that they're doing anything wrong, and then go, "I totally respect copyright law! I would never pirate anything!" If you think copyright is so cool, how come you are so happy to bend it when it's inconvenient?

(NB. I admit that I haven't actually checked the site; the games there may yet be under license terms that permit re-distribution after the company making them has folded. If so, sorry of associating the general rant with this specific case. But I doubt it.)

Re:Regarding the interview

[dr.badass]

Quote the admin: "I have never seen the tracker without a significant amount of files which aren't pirated."

I think he's being mighty selective in his measurements. I think a more appropriate measure of what the tracker is built on can be found in the number of seeders and leechers for each file.

Sure, there may be dozens of abandonware titles and service manuals available with one or two seeds, but if the majority of users are downloading "Pirated_OS_10.4", then the variety of files doesn't mean much. Any BitTorrent tracker's success is a function of the number of users, not the number of different files.

There may be a significant number of files that aren't pirated in the usual sense, but there's also a significant number of users that are committing piracy.

Re:Regarding the interview

[mrchaotica]

From a literal semantic standpoint, you're right: copyright infringment is copyright infringment, whether it's Tyrian^1 or Doom 3. HOWEVER, the entire concept of copyright is not based on rigid definitions of "right or wrong;" it's a bargain between creators and the public. Copying abandonware really is "less wrong"^2 than copying something that's still commercially available. That they're being loose with their definition of "copyright infringment" isn't really important, because you know what they meant and saying "copyright infringment of still-commercially-sold works" is too wordy and annoying to type every time.

In other words, what they're trying to say is "I don't believe copying abandonware is wrong, so even though it technically is 'copyright infringment' I'm not going to call it that to distinguish it from real copyright infringment of commercially-available works which is wrong because it (theoretically) deprives companies of a sale." Get it?

^1 Tyrian is my favorite example of abandonware.
^2 or even "not wrong at all."

Re:Regarding the interview

[10101001 10101001]

The real answer is to cut copyright to a much shorter term so that "abandonware" is no longer copyrighted. That way there's no question if it's "wrong" or not to be d/ling games created 5 years ago. This isn't to say I believe that with copyrights only lasting 5 years there'd be an end to piracy. But if copyright was 5 years, we wouldn't be having this sort of discussion for old games.

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

Apple puts out new versions of MacOS about three times as often too

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, if Microsoft were harrassing this guy, Macinistas like yourself would be at Gates' gate with torches and pitchforks.

But since it's Technomessiah Steve, whose company would be long dead and in the ground without this kind of free publicity, acting like the worst stereotype of a corporate goon is "insanely great."

Macinistas are ever-so-tiresome...

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a "new" operating system though.

$129 is a steal? Pffft, I paid $8000 for my Mac and now I have an OS tax? (*)

(*) Actually, I'm kidding, my Mac was free because I would've never bought such an overexpensive POS. It ain't anything special, I don't know why people love Apple. It's slow, has bugs, etc... The only difference between OSX and everything else is that it looks pretty, but that wears off real quick when you realize it's slow as shit.

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

yep... there is almost no point in posting about it though, slashbots are morons. anyone that has used OSX while not wearing fanboy goggles would realize that it's not perfect and in one way or another is just as bad as any other os out there.

damage dollare amount not specified

[sacrilicious]

TFA:

Going by what [Apple's] asking for in the court papers, this isn't an area where they are planning on being particularly merciful when it comes to damages.

For the record, the supplied document lists Apple's requests as follows:

• Compensatory and examplary damages to be determined at trial
• Injunctions restraining the distribution of the software
• Injunctions restraining the breach of the agreements (not clear what that means)
• An accounting of any profits the defendants have derived from their distribution of the software
• The cost of the suit
• Any other relief the court deems just and proper.

Some /. postings on this topic assert that Apple seeks to financially ruin the defendant. Given the lack of a stated dollar amount above, do we have a foundation for believing this? I'm not pro-Apple on this, I'd simply like to know if we're going on (warranted) cynicism, or general precedent, or specific precedent, or logic....

Re:damage dollare amount not specified

[johnjaydk]

The cost of the suit is far sufficient to do this guy in.

He's a student for christ-sake fine him $1000 and he's done for. With a bit of luck on their part they'll ruin any chance he has at med-school. Sure he's an ass-hat but the media fall-out for Apple could easily offset any anti-piracy gains.

Think twice before you run the steamroller over this guy.

Re:damage dollare amount not specified

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost of the suit.

With high-paid attorneys, that's all it's going to take to ruin this guy.

Re:damage dollare amount not specified

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, let's be silly for a moment.

First, Apple can make whatever deal they want. It's not like they walk up and say "Pay me $1,000,000 right now." I'm sure some sort of payment plan can be set up.

Consider, also, that this guy is pre-med. Someday he may become a rich doctor.

So, suppose Apple says "Pay us $150,000." That's $400 per month for 30 years. If he starts when he's 30, he's free-and-clear when he's 60. I have a hard time believing that $400 per month will be a hardship for a 30 year-old doctor. So he might have to get the Toyota instead of the BMW...

It really comes down to this...

[Quarters]

As to the question, did I do exactly what Apple is accusing me of doing? I did share the file. So in that regard yes. But there was no malicious intent.

He needs to look up the definition of malicious. He came into posession of a piece of copyrighted software and then made the conscious decision to seed it to others. He was pirating and he was trafficing stolen goods.

Apple has every right to go after him.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[DeltaSigma]

But it still wasn't malicious intent. I believe any sane court would find that the defendant did redistribute the copyrighted material in question, thus breaking standard copyright law and breaching his agreement. However, this was not done with the intent of damaging Apple's reputation, or financial gains.

The boy's not going to get off of the copyright infringement part of the case just because he gets off of the malicious intent part, but his sentence should be lighter.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[justins]

He needs to look up the definition of malicious. He came into posession of a piece of copyrighted software and then made the conscious decision to seed it to others. He was pirating and he was trafficing stolen goods.

Apple has every right to go after him.

I think people are really speaking past each other in this argument. Yes, Apple is legally in the right. They'll have a heck of a time proving they suffered significant damages, but still, these guys obviously violated their contract. Apple wins, and now, sports.

That's not really the point. Apple's fucking with these people's lives, in spite of the fact that they didn't cause any real harm. Dragging them into a federal court and forcing them into debt to defend themselves is just bad behavior, particularly in light of the fact that these were supporters of Apple.

It's about the distinction between "morally" and "legally" right, and believing that the punishment should fit the crime. Apple's response here is vastly out of proportion with what was necessary... which seems to sort of appeal to some people's sense of justice, nowadays.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[Ohreally_factor]

They'll have a heck of a time proving they suffered significant damages

If they can track the number of unauthorized copies made from the seed, then multiply by $500, that is easily good enough.

Failing that, they can provide a convincing estimate. Then it's up to the defendant to argue convincingly that the estimate is wrong.

They can also argue for court costs.

On the extreme low end, Apple is entitled to $3,000 (the five or six "friends" that the defendant has admitted to) + court costs.

I hesitate to speculate on the high end, but let's say that Apple put forth that 20 unauthorized copies were made from the seed. $10,000 bucks right there. A hundred unauthorized copies comes out to $500,000.

What's important is not how much such an award might effect Apple's bottom line. To a big corp, this is peanuts. What is important to Apple is how this effects the defendant, and most especially, others who might make unauthorized copies.

Apple's fucking with these people's lives, in spite of the fact that they didn't cause any real harm.

If you don't want Apple fucking with your life, don't fuck with them, even if you're of the opinion that it's essentially harmless. Apple didn't initiate this chain of events.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[justins]

If they can track the number of unauthorized copies made from the seed, then multiply by $500, that is easily good enough.

And that number would mean what? It doesn't have anything to do with the amount of harm suffered by Apple.

If you don't want Apple fucking with your life, don't fuck with them

That's very mature.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[Ohreally_factor]

You're just being thick intentionally. Do you really need more explanation?

Meanwhile, perhaps you can explain why my comment using the words "fucking" and "fuck" is immature, while your comment is not immature.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[justins]

Do you really need more explanation?

Sure. Explain to me how any normal developer's decision to join a $500 membership-based developer program is going to be affected by the existence of a rogue bittorrent of some random Apple beta product. I'm not seeing it, and I predict that any server logs that are recovered will show that the volume of downloads was pretty small.

I'd also predict that none of the associated IPs belong to serious Apple developers, and so Apple's losses are truly minimal.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[Ohreally_factor]

Oh, I see. You want to argue the validity of Apple's potential damages. See, I wasn't arguing Apple's case. I was merely pointing out a way in which they could easily quantify such damages to the court, which you claimed would be difficult.

And I also don't think you've even read the articles. If you had, you would know that:

1) Apple recorded 2,500 downloads between late October and mid December. (Sunny claims he only seeded for three hours before the seed was disabled by the tracker admins at Apple's behest.)

2) The server logs were already recovered. The guys running the tracker have completely cooperated with Apple.

So go ahead, argue about how no one was harmed, since no one who downloaded was a developer. I'm sure you'll win a big moral victory on slashdot court, but your argument is a nonstarter in a real courtroom.

Re:It really comes down to this...

[justins]

So go ahead, argue about how no one was harmed, since no one who downloaded was a developer. I'm sure you'll win a big moral victory on slashdot court, but your argument is a nonstarter in a real courtroom.

Right. Because you never have to show damages in court. That would be crazy.

About Steve Jobs....

[10Ghz]

Off-topic, I know but... I was just reading the article about Woz on Wikipedia. It contained this interesting piece of info:

Woz left Apple for good on February 6, 1985, nine years after setting up the company. Wozniak then founded a short-lived venture called CL9 which developed home remote control switches. Out of spite, Jobs threatened his suppliers to not do business with Wozniak or risk losing Apple's business. Wozniak was able to find suppliers other than the ones he had worked with for years, but was disappointed in his former friend's bitterness.

I never knew that Jobs was such an ass. Egomaniac? Sure! Asshole? it seems so.

Re:About Steve Jobs....

[Anonymous Coward]

And Wikipedia's absolutely authoritative on such matters.. .

Re:About Steve Jobs....

[Anonymous Coward]

So, do you take it as a given that if something is alleged, that it must be true?

I'd like to see who made that claim, and whether he can back it up.

Re:About Steve Jobs....

[10Ghz]

Well, Woz's web-site has this little story:

I went to FROG Design, a company that had designed the enclosures for many Apple products. They came up with several design possibilities for my remote control. But one weekend (I heard) Steve Jobs encountered this product design there and blew up. FROG told us they could not do it for me. They even tried to collect money after this attrocious thing. I suspect that Steve had a bad impression of my departure, probably fueled by a very inaccurate article in the Wall Street Journal that made it sound that my reason for leaving Apple was because of bad feelings about Apple

So yes, there does seem to be some truth in the claim. Funny, people seem to get mighty upset when it's hinted that maybe Steve Jobs is not that great of a guy. Personality-cult, perhaps?

Re:About Steve Jobs....

[Anonymous Coward]

people getting upset? just wait till his disciples hit the thread... you may find yourself modded down and have a wave of hostile anonymous responses. yes, quite childish.

Re:About Steve Jobs....

[Ohreally_factor]

Die, infidel!!

I would hope that the true Steve Jobs worshipping zombie (like myself) would know what an huge and terrific asshole he is. Still, we wouldn't have it any other way.

You've offered an interesting tidbit to that effect, but it's just part of a huge wave of evidence that points to Steve's assholity. In fact, true believers refer to him as "his assholiness".

Traditional Crime Vs Digital Crime

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know the consequences of the following.

1. A person breaks into apple HQ and steals 20 copies of Tiger on CD. They get caught.

2. A person uploads tiger via Bittorrent. They get caught

I assume for the first you'd get a suspended sentence for first offence or a few months in Jail.
But for the second I guess you'll be paying for it for the rest of your life.

Conclusion throw away your keyboard and trade in for a crowbar.

Re:Traditional Crime Vs Digital Crime

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a legal concept called "mens rea", latin for "guilty mind". Meaning that the person knew it was wrong when he did it.

Someone breaking into Apple HQ clearly knew he wasn't supposed to be there. So it's obvious that there was criminal intent.

Someone who got some file off IRC and said, "ooh hey look at this" doesn't necessarily demonstrate criminal intent.

Re:Traditional Crime Vs Digital Crime

[Ohreally_factor]

The first would clearly be a matter for the criminal courts.

The second, in this particular case, is being handled in civil court.

Anonymous Coward, I know that the US legal system as been explained to you many times here on slashdot. Please stop with the posts offering your "legal insights" when you've failed to learn anything from the explanations.

Marketing justifies theft?

[evolutionaryLawyer]

Not his fault? Gimme a break.

We are all incapable of resisting marketing and ad copy? Boo-fricking-hoo. I go to the Detroit Auto Show and I see a Ferrari, I like it, it's a sexy fucking car, I want it. Because Enzo Ferrari is so good at making a street legal F1 car, and he spends so much money on marketing it (F1 team anyone), it is not my fault if I steal the car, it is Ferrari's? Give me a break.

Now I am a liberal, but pulling this socialist crap is ridiculous. If marketing makes products so irresistable to you that you ruin your credit, whore yourself out for $5 a shot in the mouth, or steal, you have nobody to blame but yourself, because you are an idiot who cannot control impulses.

Your logic justifies raping a provocatively dressed woman. She made you want it so much that you just had to take it. Nice.

The kid was stupid, he broke the rules. He didn't just get a gray-market copy, he then set out to distribute a gray-markey copy. The 5 or 6 friends part is bullshit, he had more people in mind, or should have known it wouldn't stay small. It is like telling 1 friend in highschool that your parents are gonna be out of town for the weekend. You either know it is gonna get around or you are so stupid that you derserve what you get.

Re:Marketing justifies theft?

[LourensV]

Tell that to those, what, 160 million people in the US who are downloading music.

Listen, I'm perfectly happy not downloading any music, or buying a new computer when I don't need one, or buying expensive designer clothes, or getting a cell phone with two colour screens, a camera, MMS, GPRS and twenty-two different kinds of Java games. I have CDs that get better the more you listen to them, an Athlon 1700 XP that will be fast enough for years to come, clothes that keep me warm and look decent, and a Nokia 3310 (because I couldn't buy anything more simple when my old phone broke).

But look around you for a moment. Look at the majority of the people, not just your smart and tech-savvy friends, but ordinary people. They buy this crap. The marketing and the products.

I'm not saying that it's an excuse. As I said, what he did was illegal and wrong. But did you read the article? He had this cool new preview of his favourite OS, and he was so excited about it he wanted to show it to his friends. So excited about it that he didn't think of the consequences. He should have, definitely. But I can't say I don't understand where he's coming from. And I do think part of that excitement was induced by Apple itself.

Re:Marketing justifies theft?

[geoffspear]

And this is why the seeds are only supposed to be available to developers who are willing to pay for a higher level of ADC membership.

It would be very sad if this lead Apple to stop trusting small developers, and started only giving pre-release software to heavily screened big corporate developers. Adobe and Microsoft would still be able to make sure their software would run on Tiger, and the small developers would be screwed.

Remember, the purpose of ADC seeding isn't to create hype for a new OS release, it's to let developers get their software ready to be working when the new OS comes out. If they wanted to create hype, they wouldn't make everyone who gets the software sign an NDA.

Re:Greed

[Golias]

I don't mean to upset those queued up in the "can I please blow you mr jobs" line but you'd have a point if MS charged for SP2 - it didnt.

If Apple charged for the 10.3.7 to 10.3.8 upgrade you would have a point - they didn't.

how on earth is charging for what are really nothing more than service packs a good thing?

10.4 is a new OS version. It's like going from Windows XP to Longhorn. The only difference is Apple is actually more or less on schedule.

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

If your Mac was $8000 I'm not surprised it's slow. The last Mac to cost that much came out more than 12 years ago.

Also, yes it is a new operating system. It's certainly a bigger step than the move from Windows 2000 to Windows XP was. How many people got that upgrade for free? (Without stealing it from work, that is.)

Blog sites?

[KZigurs]

"So yeah, he's an idiot, but does the punishment truly fit the crime? Is this a case where he could have broken into Apple's HQ, slaughtered the entire Tiger OS team with a hatchet and gotten a lighter sentence? (Note I have no clue what the punishment will be, damn work blocks all blog sites.)"

You sure have a good knowledge about justice and how courts work in general.

Article has a big problem

[JeffTL]

It says he needs an IP lawyer -- but as I understand it, leaking a developer beta of OS X is first and foremost a breach of contract -- when you promise a company you won't do something damaging to said company, and then you do it anyway, a lawsuit is to be expected. Copyright and trade secret COULD be invoked but this looks more like a contract case.

not happy with apple

[JonDavies205]

not liking apple at the moment. £30 to replace my ipod earphones! they just fell apart!! :@

Re:not happy with apple

[Quiet_Desperation]

Why not buy different headphones?

I use Bose noise cancellers at work with my iPod. A little more than $30, but, man, I never really noticed the air conditioning system noise until I cancelled it out.

Re:not happy with apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure you don't mean $300?

Re:not happy with apple

[JonDavies205]

yea, but apple earphones are probably the best out there right?!

Question...

[Intetsu]

Are there free legal resources available to help people in this situation? This kid's mistake is a pattern that we see recited over and over. There are free legal clinics that help people in all kinds of other situations, landlord/tenant disputes, immigration, etc.,...but I haven't seen anything to help common people when they accidentily cross these IP boundries.

Re:Question...

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Well there are "free" services, but who knows what you are going to get if you grab a file named "Perry Mason." It could be anything from "Mickey Mouse" to "Ginger Lynn".

Re:Question...

[alc6379]

Slashdot is now a free legal resource for people in this situation:

DON'T DO STUPID CRAP LIKE THIS

If anyone else needs legal advice with regards to downloading a developer copy of a software, and then breaking the license you agreed to in order to download said software, kindly point them to this post.

Tiger poop

[amichalo]

Sounds to me like Apple works like the cops on Law & Order. They find the lowly perp and tell them the whole job is gonna come down on their unsuspecting and mildly involved act unless they give up their boss.

I agree with this tactic.

The 23 yrs old "kid" (at 28 am I a "teenager"?), acted as the distributor, but Apple really wants the supplier, the chink in the NDA armor for their developer network.

So the "kid" (I just love assigning that term to a med-student), needs to giveup his source or serve the sentence for supply and distribution.

Hey, I know it aint cool to back the global-enterprise, but when you spent hundreds of millions of dollars on R&D, all you have protecting the investment is the word of your development team and the law. Take away the law, and you don't have much.

Re:Tiger poop

[Ohreally_factor]

IIRC, they've already dealt with the developer who gave the "kid" access to the Tiger Beta.

Are either Jobs or Wozniak flipping burgers?

[Catbeller]

I seem to recall that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak used to manufacture/sell phone phreaking equipment. Almost certainly illegal :)

How much "theft" did these two engender?
Did they ever go to jail, considering how well known their criminal past is?

And where would the personal computing world be today if they had been arrested and ruined as this guy will be?

Apple is going down the path to corporate hell. Steve! remember where you came from. You might be destroying someone who will implant the first artificial eye, or who will finally bring medical information processing into the twentieth century. The kid didn't hurt you or your company.

Don't be a hypocrite.

Re:Are either Jobs or Wozniak flipping burgers?

[Anonymous Coward]

You might be destroying someone who will implant the first artificial eye, or who will finally bring medical information processing into the twentieth century.

By stealing an artificial eye another medical student developed and implanting it himself?

Stealing another's research on medical information processing and passing it off as his own?

This is a matter of ethics, and call me stupid, but I want as few unethical doctors running around as possible. Hell, given all the insurance industry/medical professionals/pharmaceutical company shady business floating between them, I'd say we have enough of them already.

It's one thing to get caught stealing and fess up that you were stealing. It's another to get caught stealing them claim ignorance that you were actually stealing. "Bittorrent UPLOADS?! I never knew that! I mean, they should've put that "Upload speed" line in bold text and made the text flash between blue and red!"

Re:Are either Jobs or Wozniak flipping burgers?

[a10t2]

Did they ever go to jail, considering how well known their criminal past is?

Given how high profile the arrests would be, I bet they would have been prosecuted if:

1. Phreaking was illegal at the time. (IIRC they beat out the federal law on that one.)
2. The statute of limitations hadn't expired.
3. There was any evidence, since their own statements are inadmissible.

Building a case is hard work, which is why smart criminals don't get caught.

(And, conversely, why this guy did.)

Non-Disclosure Agreement

[guet]

NDA stands for Non-Disclosure Agreement.

You'd have to be as thick as two planks to not understand the basic terms of an NDA from this name - ie you're not supposed to even tell people about the software/documents etc that you're given, let alone distribute them on the internet. I simply don't believe he didn't know that was wrong.

The basic tenet of *every* NDA is that, guess what, you don't disclose what you're allowed to look at. You don't have to read any of the license at all to understand that. It's there on the download page in red letters as well - do not distribute.

To say you didn't read the agreement when it's a commonly used public contract (like that of marriage for instance) is a very weak excuse, and quite apart from that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

Re:Non-Disclosure Agreement

[Skye16]

It's a question of importance. How often are we inundated by long, lawyer gibberish declaring one thing or another. Eventually it becomes background noise, annoying, essentially the same thing as a webpage advertisement. And, again, I don't ponder every single thing I read and try to infer the meaning (or importance) behind it every single moment - ESPECIALLY not when I'm giddy with excitement.

The point I was making wasn't that this absolves him of guilt. The point I'm making is that it is a FAR cry from divulging patient information.

Re:Non-Disclosure Agreement

[geoffspear]

Have you SEEN the full text of HIPAA? Who's going to bother to read that? It's loaded with "lawyer gibberish declaring one thing or another."

Re:Non-Disclosure Agreement

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, the big angry red text only appeared after this whole mess.

Re:Non-Disclosure Agreement

[norkakn]

*sigh*

I have. I want a new administration so that I can sue people for breaking it. (wouldn't fly under bush) partly to justify the hours I spent reading the damn thing.

Re:Non-Disclosure Agreement

[Yer Mom]

When you sign up to the free ADC account, you get a textbox containing a rather long EULA. The NDA is at the end of that.

He could conceivably have looked at the textbox saying "end user licence agreement" and not scrolled down to see the NDA at the end.

Why is why, of course, it's really stupid to just skip past these things without reading them. How do you know what's been hidden in the middle if you don't read the agreement?

If he used a Windows box, he'd be up to his earlobes in spyware before he could say "oh, nobody reads those things".

It's a goddammed civil case!!!

[Pig Hogger]

It's a goddammed civil case!

The kid has nothing at all. He's canadian. He just should get the fuck-out of the US and leave Apple high and dry, get his medical doctor degree in Canada and that's it. In Canada, he's beyond the reach of the US law anyways.

In this, he has learned the very valuable lesson that americans are hardcore sonovabitches you don't need to deal with.

Is Apple stupid or what ?

[mehgul]

These court papers are quite interesting. Apparently, one thing that Apple is worried about is the competition getting their hand on Tiger pre-releases, as they state:

"Maintaining pre-release software as a trade-secret is essential to Apple's ability to compete in the markets for personal computer hardware and software. If Apple's competitors had access to Apple's Pre-Release software, those competitors could benefit economically from the knowledge gained from that access by directing their development or marketing efforts to frustrate Apple's plans." (this is on page 5, point 18)

Now, I would understand this if they were actually not providing pre-release software to anybody. But really, what stops any Microsoft employee from getting into the ADC and distributing it to the Longhorn development team ? Does Apple have a list of all Microsoft employees so that they can prevent them from entering the ADC ? I'm puzzled...

Re:Is Apple stupid or what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, gee, maybe they have an NDA covering it or something?

The Problem

[catdevnull]

I'm not pro-corporate. Let me say that up front.

Apple has a NDA that they require of all developers who receive "pre-release" copies of software in development. If Apple does not pursue litigation then their NDA basically means nothing. They are perfectly within their legal rights to insist that the agreement be kept. So, the poor bastard who's getting sued should have known better.

There are open source packages out there to distribute freely without the wrath of the owner. It seems that there are many slashdot readers who are not mature enough to recognize that the world doesn't work that way. I'm not saying it's right--I'm just saying that just because you think IP laws are rubbish or do not apply to you doesn't change the fact that they the law and they do, in fact, apply. It's naive to think that electronic civil disobedience will not be met with the very sharp teeth and claws of the corporate legal eagles/weasels. Everyone always says, "Oh, that poor grandmother or little kid getting picked on by the corporations."

Fight the law with the law. Vigilante piracy isn't going to magically tip the law in the favor of Utopian RMS world. It's friggin' common sense people--DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN CORPORATIONS. Everyone here knows it's against the law to share copyrighted music, software, or some other IP. If you do it anyway don't bitch if you get caught. Just because we don't like the corporations doesn't make it right to steal from them--that makes us immature miscreant punks. And the legal system will treat you as such.

This world runs on money--corporations are greedy entities that will suck the lives out of every human being. Don't buy corporate. Fight with your power as a "consumer" by not being one. DON'T BE A CONSUMER WHORE but be a law-abiding citizen, too. [PSA brought to you by catdevnull].

Re:The Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because we don't like the corporations doesn't make it right to steal from them--that makes us immature miscreant punks. And the legal system will treat you as such.

Indeed. This kind of behavior is why I stopped going to public protests. I met so many people that were more interested in taunting the police than spreading awareness of the cause. They were more excited about being able to call themselves victims than anything else. They'd break the law, and then scream and howl when they got arrested for it.

People need to remember that civil disobedience means accepting the consequences of your actions.

One word ..

[Anonymous Coward]

extradition .

Impressive innovations!?

[Anonymous Coward]

"People are fans of Apple because they keep cranking out impressive innovations"

Like...the GUI...no no never mind.

Or the personal computer... no no never mind.

Using BSD Unix! Oops, forget I mentioned that.

MP3's. Apple invented MP3... nope.

Lickable iMac's! I think we can all agree on that.

"most of us are fine with them being asshats"

No, most of us aren't. That's why Apple's market share is hovering around 1% of new sales. If not for the MP3 player (which Apple invented...er.... never mind), they'd be belly up right now.

Re:Impressive innovations!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hay, you forgot flash memory based mp3 players that need disclaimers for people not to eat them!

As we forgive those

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have never, not even once, downloaded something questionable then you can get angry at this boy for being a stupid kid.

Yes, he is 23, but still a boy in the way that he behaved.

Clearly he didn't have any nevarious plans for the software that he never even loaded on his machine (but just tried to set up to let it be available.)

So, he was stupid.

Apple knows what to do here, he is not worth the bad press that they get by persuing this case.

I have told everyone how much Apple sucks just because I feel sorry for this poor fool.

When Apple gives up this case I may even go buy MAC for my dad who has expressed an interest.

Sane people and companies stay away from the courts as much as possible. Apple needs to be anti-litigious if they want the nerds to keep salvatating over their foolish harddrive based music recorders.

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

ozric, it does no good to reply to your own posts as an AC, everyone sees right through your ploy.

What's the problem again?

[Trailer Trash]

So, this guy (not a kid, he's 23) makes Apple's OS available on bitorrent and now they're suing him? Okay, that's what happens. I read about how this is going to ruin his life. I guess I'm confused, but his life will go on, he'll just owe some money.

Ah, but he won't be able to finish med school. Is that what we're so worried about? I'm not sure that I want someone with such poor judgement being a doctor.

Call me a jerk, mod me down, whatever. The guy did something really stupid, something really illegal, and now he's being asked to pay.

By the way, Woz. If you want to help the guy, $1000 isn't going to do much.

One other thing while I'm burning karma. To the guy who wrote that he wonders if the company is being run by Jobs or greedy lawyers: you might want to consider the oh-so-tiny possibility that this is the result of Jobs running the company. I don't blame him, I'd do the same thing.

I just don't find this surprising, except for the people rushing to his defense.

Re:What's the problem again?

[Animats]

This is completely different from the guy who published a rumor about some future Apple music product. That's ordinary journalism. Bulk distribution of a commercial operating system that isn't yours is theft.

If you want to distribute an OS, contribute to Linux.

you might want to consider the oh-so-tiny possibility that this is the result of Jobs running the company That makes sense. It's typical of the process by which ageing hippies become Republicans. Understand that while Jobs has a following, it isn't here in Silicon Valley, where too many people have actually met him.

Re:What's the problem again?

[Ohreally_factor]

e. It's typical of the process by which ageing hippies become Republicans.

That certainly explains the shift we've seen in the Democratic party towards the center, but by what process is it that aging republicans become fascists? (I'm a registered republican, btw)

Re:What's the problem again?

[Anonymous Coward]

He is student so he probably can't pay it. He'll end up in jail or getting a job to pay Apple off. Perhaps he is allowed to pay off after he's done with his study? I'm not really familar with how judges rule on this in the USA. He's not a kid anymore, so he can forget any 'nice' or 'special' threatment.

Re:What's the problem again?

[Saeger]

I'm not sure that I want someone with such poor judgement being a doctor. Call me a jerk, mod me down, whatever.

You're OK with one less doctor in the world just because of some mostly harmless (and inevitable) copyright infringment?

FUCK YOU, Trailer Trash apple zealot.

Easy target

[little_blaine]

Interesting point from the article:

desicanuk created and seeded the torrent, but soon after there were several other "buddy seeds" from _independent_ copies of the file (i.e. not from other users who downloaded desicanuk's file)

It seems that Apple is only going after desicanuk because he's the only one that they can tie his MTKA (BT tracker) IP and username to the ADC IP and username.

Furthermore, desicanuk is not the one who originally leaked the software (obviously), he was just stupid enough to share it. His claim that he didn't realize that he did anything wrong probably doesn't hold much water. However, as others pointed out, there's no monetary, reputational, or intellectual damage to Apple, and it seems that Apple is going after the easy target.

One thing that didn't come out in the interview and discussions: Did desicanuk give up the identity of the person who sent him his copy of Tiger? It seems that if Apple wants to find the real leak, that's the right direction to go.

Re:Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

He'd also have a point if MS charged you for upgrading to XP (NT 5.1) from Windows 2000 (NT 5.0).

Oh wait. I believe they do want some money for that. Check into it and report back, would you?

Microsoft will charge you around 3X that? No.

[name_already_taken]

Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

No, they don't.

If you buy the retail version of Windows XP it will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, but if you want to upgrade from a previous version of Windows to Windows XP, it costs $99 (for regular consumers or business people, not students).

That's $30 less than Apple charges regular folks for an OS X upgrade, according to your post.

SP2 for XP is a free download too, so I'm not sure where you're getting your information. I don't like Microsoft any more than the next guy, but prices are pretty easy to check.

Windows XP Upgrade $99

Must not reply... But I can't help it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too. He claim's to be Canadian, but can't spell "Canuck".

Looks like your own s'pelling is'nt too good either, mate. (Not to mention your ponctooation.)

lest you doubt woz is on the side of angels...

[dave-fu]

After Cloud Nine went belly-up, he gave the 800 number (800-999-9999) to a teen runaway hotline with neither press releases nor fanfare; he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do.
Compare and contrast as you will.

resellers and consumers sue Apple

[CrazyCanuck2]

Apparently some Apple resellers and consumers have joined to sue the company over some of its alleged practices, including use of confidential info, manipulating supply, etc. Slightly OT, but it relates to Apple public image. Of course, suits are easy to start but harder to win -- SCO anyone? -- so who knows... http://asia.cnet.com/news/personaltech/0,39037091, 39218703,00.htm/

Re:resellers and consumers sue Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot. This was already posted on Slashdot.

Apple to blame to a major extent

[kanweg]

I'm an Apple fan (ok, a little less so if Apple does this kind of things), but I think that Apple is to blame to a major extent.

- Apple is very much aware of rumor sites and knows their following crave for Apple-news before it is out. This sure keeps people interested in what's comming up from Apple. I for one visit those sites regulary and keep me in touch. (I don't like sites speculating on pricing, because it is too easy to get excited about a product, which may become a disappointment if the product is indeed as good as rumored, but at a higher price. If they'd not speculated it, it would probably still be considered a good price).
- Apple can easily make the Tiger beta's such that they only run on Macs with registered MAC addresses (ethernet addresses, whatever) which are unique for a computer. So, if a beta gets out in the wild nobody can run it.
- Apple makes a fool if itself by writing in the writ that they are in such a competitive business and their IP must be protected blah blah blah. Firstly, if they did really care, they had take proper precautions (see previous point). Secondly, Steve said that companies like Microsoft are busy integrating Tiger's Spotlight technology into Office. For that, you need a Tiger beta. So, the competitor who has 95+% marketshare has a copy of
that intellectual property. Apple can handle the rest: even the current version of Mac OS X is a great product.

Sure, the guy did something wrong. Apple, oet him pay $2500 Tsunami disaster relief and let it go.

Bert

Re:Apple to blame to a major extent

[derubergeek]

Apple can easily make the Tiger beta's such that they only run on Macs with registered MAC addresses (ethernet addresses, whatever) which are unique for a computer.

Easily? What you're suggesting is to distribute the OS in a crippled form (one that wouldn't actually go to production, and would therefore be different software) so that they can guard against people who have accepted NDAs from leaking the IP.

Of course, one could always distribute the MAC address with it and then you could reprogram the MAC address on your card. Oops. Do I see a loophole?

By your way of thinking, they were fools to expect people to abide by their contractual obligations and therefore get what they deserve. Remind me not to enter into a contract with you.

apple will just win and then waive collecting

[helix_r]

Apple can't afford the negative publicity of ruining an individual like this, but they can't just drop it, either.

I predict they will win the civil case and then waive their right to collect any damages.

Unfortunately, the legal fees to get to that point could still be crushing for an individual.

Re:apple will just win and then waive collecting

[adzoox]

This would be the most reasonable thing to do - since it seems like the legal bills for this kid will be paid or possibly donated in to - it serve to scare him and warn others this can't be done.

Apple is trying very hard to set legal precedents lately - no one will stop buying Macs because of some image - and if they do they are idiots.

People whining about public image are just hypocrits. I haven't seen people stop buying Kentucky Fried Chicken since the chicken abuse story came out a few months ago.

Re:apple will just win and then waive collecting

[Anonymous Coward]

People whining about public image are just hypocrits. I haven't seen people stop buying Kentucky Fried Chicken since the chicken abuse story came out a few months ago.

I'm a bit of a sadist, so I didn't start buying KFC until I heard about the chicken abuse.

As a necrophile, I was disappointed when the RIAA dropped it's case against that 83 year old dead grandmother. I was really hoping it would inspire someone to create a really good DGILF site.

Re:Greed

[delete]

In other words you are providing opinions on a subject about which you know very little.

Your false assumption has been repeatedly made on Slashdot. To reiterate, Apple freely provides it's service packs (it has release 8 major updates for Panther, which is currently at 10.3.8). However, charging for Tiger, which has an abudance of new features, is no different than MS charging for Longhorn. In fact the new features in the two have often been likened).

This is not "Apple-Worship". Personally I have many issues with Apple in regard to the build quality of their hardware, along with their support and pricing in Europe. However, in this case I'm just pointing out that you have your facts wrong.

Re:Microsoft will charge you around 3X that? No.

[profet]

Windows XP Upgrade $99

Um... did you even bother going to the linked page? $99 = used copy of Windows XP Pro.

From Microsoft, Windows XP Pro for $299, Upgrade = $199

Now... also keep in mind that $129 gets you the full version of the OS. So its $129 vs. $299.

RTFA.

Big deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

So a few more people know that Apples new OS is even gayer than the last, the dock has a lovely pink sheen to it and iButtPlug is now slightly wider to enable MAC diehards to still get some sensation out of their ravaged gaping anuses.

Fuck me who cares ? Only faggots use Apples anyway.

Re:Big deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only faggots. I agree though too many faggots and wanking posers who don't know anything about computers use Macs and they give the rest of us a bad name.

Re: Federated Usable...

[sczimme]

Not every business needs to have a respectable name like "Federated Usable Computational Devices, Inc."

So the company would basically be FUCD?

:-)

Re:Microsoft will charge you around 3X that? No.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If you buy the retail version of Windows XP it will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, but if you want to upgrade from a previous version of Windows to Windows XP, it costs $99 (for regular consumers or business people, not students).

All of this is trying to compare apples and oranges. For example the difference between Windows 98 SE and Windows ME was window dressing and bug fixes. The difference between ME and XP was mostly bug fixes and some new features (from an end user point of view). In fact, the only reason I upgrade to a new version of Windows is because my company pays for it, or because the old version will not get vital security fixes. On the other hand, each OS X release (aside from the free one) was mostly new features. All the major bug fixes and all the security updates are available for the older versions.

I guess what I am saying is yes, Windows can be upgraded more cheaply than OS X if you always buy the most current release of each OS. Apple is faster to add new functionality and release new versions, and each version costs slightly more than a typical Windows release. On the other hand, you get a lot more for your money in terms of new, useful features. Also, since each version of OS X gets faster instead of slower, you don't have to buy new hardware as often and when you do, you can bring you OS license over to the new machine, if you so desire. With Windows, each OS version is tied to a machine and cannot be transferred to a newer one. It is a very unequal comparison.

Apple zealot alert

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, let's stick to the facts. There is no question that what this guy did was wrong, but the question is, was it something so terrible to distribute a pre-release to some enthusiasts, thereby causing no real damage whatsoever (it's not like anything new about the upcoming OSX was revealed, it's not like it isn't quite easy to get a legal copy of a pre-release, it's not that Apple will sell one less copy of the new OSX because of it) that it really merits ruining his entire life? And that's exactly what Apple is doing and it'S disgusting.

About the other case. It's about a news site posting rumors, no more, no less. You know, journalists do this all the time, posting information they got from inside sources. To call that "pretty clear, for profit, industrial espionage" is just, in lack of a better word, stupid.

Re:Apple zealot alert

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, let's stick to the facts.

Like your assertion that the pre-release software would never make it out of the hands of enthusiasts. That it wouldn't make it into the hands of people who don't understand software development, the kind of people who would install beta software on production systems because they think it's a legitimate upgrade? That little assertion?

Have I mentioned one of those ignorant individuals installed a Windows 2000 server beta on top of a working Windows NT 4.0 server and blew it all to hell (not at my employer, not on one of my systems, he wasn't even an MIS drone, but I got to laugh at the jackass when he got fired all the same)? Causing a particularly large video game themed restaurant location to put all their games on free play for days until it was all sorted out by someone from the main office flown in to fix it?

Once beta software gets into the wild, it's no longer in the hands of enthusiasts. That's why there's an NDA in the first place, to keep it in the hands of enthusiasts. Once it leaves their hands, it's into the hands of enthusiasts and jackasses alike.

And the jackasses can easily bury you with bad word of mouth to other jackasses, because to all of them, it's finished software. Now Microsoft can afford to let the jackasses be jackasses, because even if 95% of the jackasses badmouth them, they've still got 50%+ of the market that's unaffected. Contrast that with Apple's market share, and you can understand why it's more critical. Every PC going out the door, good or bad word of mouth, doesn't ship with OSX preinstalled. There is no monopoly subsidizing their every gaffe and wacky scheme for world domination. There's just a small number of people to sell to, and you want as much of that as possible to at least entertain the idea of buying your product.

The guy needs to hire a lawyer so he can work out a settlement. Sitting around with his thumb up his ass and crying a river to anyone who'll listen is not going to get him a lawyer.

Re:Apple zealot alert

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

it's not that Apple will sell one less copy of the new OSX because of it) that it really merits ruining his entire life? And that's exactly what Apple is doing and it'S disgusting.

Apple is suing for an injunction to stop distribution, court costs, whatever damages they suffer as a result of the distribution, whatever profit the defendant made (if any), and whatever punitive damages the court sees fit to award.

2500 copies of the software were known to have been downloaded as a result of this bit torrent posting. Court costs will be several thousand dollars, at least. The other damages will be decided by the judge and/or jury.

The defendant is a student who plans to become a doctor. I have no idea how much money he has, but maybe it is fair that he pays for whatever damage he caused? If he does not have the money, I'm sure a career in medicine will allow him to scrape together a little bit. He is pretty obviously guilty, and if he has half a brain (questionable at this point) he will settle for an undisclosed sum and a public apology, pay it off when he makes the money, and never do something this stupid again.

About the other case. It's about a news site posting rumors, no more, no less. You know, journalists do this all the time, posting information they got from inside sources.

It is illegal under the Uniform Trade Secrets Act for a journalist to publish what they reasonably expect are trade secrets. Their is no exception for journalists, except whistle blower statutes (in the case of government corruption, illegal activity, or public health concerns). They broke the law, for profit. Can you reference any cases where an insider leaked trade secrets, which were then published, and were not prosecuted? Just suing for the name of the leak is Apple being very, very lenient. Several market rags reported Apple stock dropping by several points as the result of this disclosure. They could sue for enough money to ruin the lives of both the leak and the journalist. In this case, all they care about is finding the leak and firing their lying ass. Which in my book, means they are being very, very lenient.

The Inhuman Interface

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the point in ruining the life of a 23 yo? He is guilty, ok. So punish him in a reasonable way, scare the hell out of him as an example for the others, but be careful: if you overreact you become guilty as well. It sounds to me too much like the Nazis killing 30 Italians for each German soldier injured, in my home village, many years ago.

As an Apple fanatic, I add: what attracted me to Apple was the human side. An OS full of wit and easter eggs? they must be crazy, I love them! and so on, in different ways, through the years. But a 23 yo crucified to the altar of marketing? I would have some troubles in buying a copy of Tiger with blood stains on it.

federal law, not state

[hawk]

I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice. If you get your legal advice on slashdot, your psychiatric problems are more serious than your legal ones.

That has *absolutely* nothing to to with the state.

The bankruptcy code definces certain types of debts that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, including debts for

1) support payments
2) recent taxes
3) intentionally caused harm
4) fraud
5) student loans for several years
and many others

Liability for disclosing the information in this case would be far-fetched. *HOWEVER*, if he "induced" the employee to break the NSA, that could be the tort of interference with contract, and could come under the intentionally caused harm category.

hawk, esq.

Re:federal law, not state

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweet, someone who may finally be able to answer my question about Federal Student Loans and declaring Bancruptcy.

I currently have about $20k in student loan debt... all federal direct loans. Let's say I take out a separate loan from a bank for about $30k. I use $20k to pay off the Direct Loans and use the remaining money on hookers and booze.

At this point, I've paid off my student loans, but now have $30k debt in the form of a bank loan. If I declare bancruptcy, I should be able to get all of my debt from college, hookers, booze, etc. forgiven, or will the government see through my little plan and make me liable for all my debt. BTW, this is a ligitimate question, so please answer it to the best of your knowledge.

modify that last paragraph

[hawk]

That phrasing should be for the macrumors litigation, not this one.

Uploading it to share it would certainly be an intentional copyright violation, no matter how many he expected to download it (1 or 1,000,000). It's not the general liability, however, that would be nondischargeable. It's the intent to cause the harm that matters.

hawk, esq.

Ding ding -- Proportionate Justice in civil cases

[ianscot]

You nailed that. The hallmark of any decent system of justice is its sense of proportion.

As a nation, the US is struggling with that "proportionate" part.

Think of all the ways in which we're drifting, semi-consciously, toward authoritarian responses to crime. The death penalty, "three strikes" mandatory sentencing rules that take sentencing away from judges in order for politicians to appear "tough on crime," drug sentences that put people away for disproportionate sentences compared with the punishment violent criminals get hit with. Any sense of proportion goes out the window once you've got the public responding to politicians who'll play to that. We've got plenty of /. posters who reacted to the "webcam break-in" story last week by saying "throw away the key" when they found out the guy only got 11 months in prison. Politicians eat that stuff up.

(Or take a look at Martha Stewart; it's completely freaking clear that she didn't do anything other big stock players aren't doing right now. She's being made into an example. Meanwhile Ken Lay? Connected to our President, and I don't notice him doing crime for destroying countless Enron employees' retirements through his quite extreme reckless behavior and that of his entire energy junta. That's not proportionate justice.)

Meanwhile, the corporate influence on government is simultaneously de-fanging potential civil suits against big corporations and giving them those corporate entities the ability to completely ream individuals who can't defend themselves in any real way against the money the big players can array against them.

This guy sounds like a fool -- the "I'm not hiring a lawyer" idiocy that some posters here are backing has partly gotten him into this spot. ("The person who represents himself as a lawyer has a fool for a client.") But he shouldn't be destroyed. He should be made aware that he has to think about what he's doing, and he needs to feel that message.

What needs to happen is that he gets a lawyer, Apple makes a big show of being amiable about this but also bares its teeth for a while, and everybody goes home with the usual "undisclosed settlement" -- equivalent to a month's salary for him, or something like, but never to be disclosed.

How this public letter approach is going to play will be interesting. Apple doesn't want to take bad PR, no -- so they need a way to come out of this as the Good Company.

URL?

[alex_guy_CA]

What is the URL of that popular MAC torrent site? Just for research purposes of course.

Priceless..just priceless....

[Anonymous Coward]

"Steve! remember where you came from. You might be destroying someone who will implant the first artificial eye, or who will finally bring medical information processing into the twentieth century. The kid didn't hurt you or your company."

Steve, no stop, you might be destroying someone who has made a very valuable contribution to... ... waReZ !!!!

In the future there will be a new Nobel Prize category for outstanding acheivements and contributions to the field of warez. The kid gets my vote. Well done kid, you tell em in court that 'warez iz like cooool do0de' and 'i waz just doing like Robin Hood thing' you will have the Judge on your side.

Keep up the wareZ kid and send me your list of warez if you wanna trade

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahhahahah

You are a fatherless bastard!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your dad should've killed ya rather than pay money to an ungrateful little bastard.

Re:Greed

[toddestan]

Call a product Windows 98 and then change it's "upgrade" to Windows Me (please no ME jokes...) and everything is dandy.

Call a product OS X 10.3 and then its "upgrade" OS X 10.4 and people moan and bitch.

I seem to remember a lot of complaining about Window ME when it came out. Of course, it was pretty easy to ignore the Windows ME "upgrade" if you already had Windows 98SE, and many people did just that.

I think the problem is that everytime Apple updates OSX, there is some gotta-have features in it, which means forking out another $129. It's pure marketing.

In other news, man bites dog!

[MachineShedFred]

Oh come on now. Even you must realize that you are the exception to the rule. There's always a few, and they feel compelled to inform everyone that they are the exception.

Let's just clear this up now: no one ever said that each and every P2P user is violating copyright (well, except maybe the irrational thinkers at the MPAA / RIAA), but it's pretty safe to say that most P2P users are violating copyright law, or have violated copyright law in the past.

All clear? Mmkay.

Re:In other news, man bites dog!

[baerm]

but it's pretty safe to say that most P2P users are violating copyright law, or have violated copyright law in the past.

Hmm, given the U.S.'s current copyright law, especially as interpreted by the MPAA/RIAA/most large corporations, you could just as well say that most (insert anything here: citizens, humans?) are violating copyright law, or have violated copyright law in the past (I'm sure I've sung Happy Birthday at a restaurant before).

Which kind of makes it a pointless statement. Unless, of course, it's meant to imply that U.S. copyright law no longer serves its orignally intended purpose.

Re:In other news, man bites dog!

[stor]

I think Futurama said it best:

"It's Nibbler's birthday, what a day for a birthday, let's all have some cake."

"And you smell like one too." - Fry

Seriously is there going to be much left of this planet after the corporates are done? Will the corporates *ever* be done? People seem to talk about copyright violation as if it's one step away from robbing a fucking bank.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for corporations? Is that it?

Cheers
Stor

Tiger leak?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first read the headline I thought: TIGERPEE :)

Puh-lease, What do you think Non-Disclosure means?

[imgunby]

I hate to call BS on this one, but BS. It wasn't a EULA he click-agreed to; it wasn't even a confidentiality agreement, assignment of invention or other document. The NDA is a *gasp* non-dislcosure agreement which I would hope a reasonably educated person would understand. To take something you had to NDA to access, and then share via a poorly understood P2P application, then claim youthful stupidity is, well, stupid.

If the EULA, NDA and other agreements he had to read were too much for him to comprehend, he should have taken that as a sign... perhaps something as complex is medicince is out of his league

"Psychobabble" has nothing to do with it

[Infonaut]

From the original drunkenblog interview:

I made the foolish assumption that since I wasn't a developer, and I had a copy that it would be ok if I shared it with 5 or 6 fellow mac fanatics.

It was suggested that I used MTKA, an invite-only bittorrent community to share it. Since the community was invite only, and the majority of the people who frequent the boards were hardcore mac fans I couldn't see harm in uploading the file.

It sounds to me like notions of whether the software was open source or not didn't even enter his mind. Issues of legality certainly didn't enter his mind either (if we take his statement at face value).

So Compu-Global-Hyper-Meganet is out?

[Blaede]

Man I thought that would be one sweet and respectable name for an ISP

Re: Federated Usable...

[TiMac]

Bravo. Exactly what I was thinking :)

It's never going to see court

[Kagato]

Apple is not likely to actually take this to court. The fact is it would cost Apple far more money to sue him than they could ever recover. He's a college student. It's unlikely that he has any assets.

In the mid 90's Microsoft sued their first person (as opposed to company) for putting a crack for MS Office on the web. The crack turned a $3.99 demo version of Office into the full blown product. In the end MS saw that you can't squeeze blood from a turnip, and offered a settlement that I'm told involved little to no cash.

While I realize Steve Jobs has a reputation for holding serious grudges on security leaks, the fact is taking this kid down to the mat does not enhance the shareholder bottom line.

This case will likely disappear after a month with a private settlement.

Re:It's never going to see court

[Ahnteis]

This is about intimidation and preventing the someone else from doing the same thing. Not about recouping costs.

Apple should give away their OS.

[mindKMST]

I think that if you pay three times the cost (If you take my numbers seriously you need to take a paxil right about now) of a comparably equiped peecee you should get the OS for free. Or even better if you pay $129 for a new version of the OS you should phone support without having to pay more for it. Keep in mind, this is the company that charged $30 for a public beta of it's O/S and then charged another $130 for the REAL Public Beta of the O/S. Apple has no problem taking advantage of their customers loyalty. Thankfully there appears to be very little copy protection on the OS discs.

Yes, I know I'm being idealistic and naive...Apple is a company...yadda...yadda...

WARNING ZEALOTS READ HERE: I am a Mac user who has used windows in the past and I support it at work. I run FreeBSD on my x86 hardware.

Re:Apple should give away their OS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who paid for the Public Beta got a coupon for $30 off the final release.

Furthermore, anyone who bought OS 10.0, what you call "the real public beta," could get an update to 10.1 FOR FREE from a computer store. I know, b/c I got mine at the CompUSA in Alaska. For those who couldn't get the disk at a store, they could order it for $20. Some people I know still happily use 10.1. So, $as much as $150 for an OS that has been in use for over four years....not a bad deal. Have you seen how much MS charges for WinXP???

One image is worth....

[Spy der Mann]

a thousand words.

He's a THIEF

[Banner]

He Stole it, that's illegal and he deserves to go to jail. Most 'honest person'? Makes me wonder what kind of people he's met, honest people do not steal million dollar software!

Again, he stole it, he's a criminal! If it was your TV or car would you all be gushing about how good this guy is? No, you'd be looking for some rope...

Re:He's a THIEF

[meheler]

There's a point you're completely missing here: If someone stole my TV or car, I wouldn't have one anymore. He copied the software. It's more akin to photocopying out of a book than theft.

Please try to be objective, or at least think before you open your mouth.

Re:He's a THIEF

[EdMcMan]

By your reasoning, he should be tried in criminal court, where he would be appointed a public defender, etc. He is not.

Re:He's a THIEF

[Ahnteis]

You have a way of releasing my car for download over the internet? Get the patent lawyers on that one, QUICK!

Re:He's a THIEF

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, a second, Mr. Think-before-opening-mouth Objectivity:
You don't seem to understand that photocopying a book and redistributing it is AGAINST THE LAW. Just because you think the copyright law is bogus or doesn't apply to you does NOT change the fact that it does.

Let's reduce this to the smallest common denomintor: let's say you and I are partners in some project. You write some software but before you agree to let me test it out, you make me sign an agreement that I will keep this between the two of us and that I won't copy or distribute copies of it. But, I screw you over and do it anyway.

Now, let's say that your livlihood depended upon the software you're developing (i.e., you're a business man not an idealist who thinks everything should be free).

Now, you have 5 or 6 other business partners who've signed the same agreement. If you don't do something, your agreement means nothing and the others will probably screw you, too.

So, there goes all the money you might use to buy your TV and/or Car. All because some moron "didn't think before opening his mouth."

Don't minimize copyright crime just because you don't like it. Move to China where they think that way, too.

Re:He's a THIEF

[Banner]

He's taking money away from Apple. If I steal some money out of your wallet, you still have money left right?

Same thing.

case law

[kajoob]

You are abound by the terms of a contract even if you fail to read the terms.

Hill v. Gateway 2000, Inc., 105 F.3d 1147 (7th Cir.)cert. denied, 522 U.S. 808 (1997)

ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir. 1996)

I mean, if you could just get out of a contract by claiming that you didn't read the thing they wouldn't be worth the paper they're printed on.

Having read the interview...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've come to the conclusion that this kid is a moron. He also volunteered the details of his transgression to Apple's lawyers over the phone. Sorry, but when you're that stupid, you don't deserve to have money.

They got the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

They found the source and sued him too. There are three defendants named in the lawsuit. desicanuk is the pre-med student. dmsmac is the ADC Select member who gave him the seed key. merkin is some other idiot who helped seed the torrent.

you also need to look up malicious...

[Anonymous Coward]

He did it on purpose, with the intent of supplying others will illegal free copies of pay-for software. That is malicious intent.

Actually

[BayBlade]

For more /.ers, its an exclusive-or thing.
You can blink (common) or you can read the intro (uncommon)--but not both.

Re:Ding ding -- Proportionate Justice in civil cas

[MattBurke]

What needs to happen is that he gets a lawyer

The trouble is as the article (or was it the linked interview?) says, he's got something like $200 to his name plus $1000 from Woz. Unfortunately the ability to get justice costs more than $1200.

Re:Microsoft will charge you around 3X that? No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll post, and I can't believe some idiot moderator gave you points for that crap.

XP is $299. Microsoft has always priced it at that. Apple OS X is $129. So while not quite 3x, it's 2.32 times as much. The point is still the same.

Of course, you can find people that sell copies of Windows or OS X for slightly less, but that's true with any product.

As an SLS user 12 years ago...

[Anonymous Coward]

> On the OSS side of things, I haven't seen any stagnation

I have to disagree with you. I just installed Linux a couple of weeks ago, and still had the same damn 800x600 X-Windows and tab window manager (twm) that I had the first time I installed Linux. That was almost 13 years ago with SLS (soft landing system). I also had to edit my own XF86Config to get X to start, just like I did a dozen years ago.

I also had to install grub to get the system to boot since the default LILO would work. LILO wouldn't work on the 386 I originally originally installed Linux on so I had to boot into DOS then use loadlin.

Times haven't changed much.

> can't tell the difference between Windows 95 and Windows XP you need to get your head checked

Nice work Mr. Microsoft apologist. He was talking about for end-users, and he's is right. You still have the same pitiful GUI on XP that you had on 95. You still have the broken Start button (WTF, I hit start to stop?) and poorly thought-out menus that you had on 95. Think from the terms of an end-user. Microsoft has made zero progress in over 10 years.

Re:As an SLS user 12 years ago...

[toddestan]

> can't tell the difference between Windows 95 and Windows XP you need to get your head checked

Nice work Mr. Microsoft apologist. He was talking about for end-users, and he's is right. You still have the same pitiful GUI on XP that you had on 95. You still have the broken Start button (WTF, I hit start to stop?) and poorly thought-out menus that you had on 95. Think from the terms of an end-user. Microsoft has made zero progress in over 10 years.

What, screw around with the interface just for the sake of screwing around? Microsoft likes to do that (ooh look, fading menus! ooh look, a shaded mouse cursor! ooh look, a green start button!). I just turn that crap off. The only real reason the Mac has come so far is that OS9 was such a steaming pile of crap to begin with.

Sure, Windows does have some quirks, but if you are going to complain about having to hit the start menu to shut down the computer, then I'm going to complain about having to drag volumes to the trash can to unmount/eject them (seriously, how dumb is that?). Or how you can irreversably delete shortcuts off the dock by dragging the icon off the dock. I have seen people do this more than once, who weren't experienced enough with OSX to know better - or for that matter, how to dig around in the Applications folder get the icon back.

Also, what archaic version of Linux were you running? You should try Knoppix, everything you need on a bootable CD without having to touch the PC's harddrive. Try Fedora, or Mandrake, or any other modern distro for something more permanent. Gone are the days of manually configuring X and having to partition the drive yourself (unless, you really want to). Most Distros now pretty much install themselves with no fuss.

ds

[teknokracy]

All reading the article aside..., I didn't even know there was a Tiger release floating around. Now I do. And now I am going to download it. I find if the companies downplay these kinds of things, the less it hurts them. Or maybe that would just show they dont care and people would do it anyway. I dont know...

Definition:

[Razzak]

deliberately harmful;

Sounds like he knows what it means. He was not malicious in his actions. Let me give you an example...

You get into a fight with someone, and you win. To make him regret fighting you, you pick up a nearby small rock and throw it into his face. He goes blind in that eye and sues you.

In the second situation, you and your friend are roughhousing as normal, and he throws a small rock at you and accidentally hits you in the eye and blinds you.

They are both "intentional", but have very different circumstances and thus deserve significantly different punishments. He was neither trying to hurt Apple with his actions, nor was he trying to profit from this. He was just stupid.

I'm not saying let him off with a $1 penalty, because then the only lesson he would have learned is that there are no repurcussions for his actions. However, I hope this isn't a life-changing mistake, because it's an easy mistake to fall into.

It's all anti-RIAA..etc all properganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, those complaining are those who didn't want the RIAA/BSA/MPAA/etc stopping their freeloading in any form.

Those of us who do support their actions tend to get modded into oblivion, and don't speak up much since this site has such a pro-warze/give me shit for free stance(and no, I am not referring to open source as warze). Plus now there are services like itunes(which was a popular complaint at the time), there is one less for some people to complain about the RIAA's lawsuits.

They are only doing this to keep repeating and reinforcing the "they are EVIL" propaganda. They keep parroting this while ignoring the fact that these people were downloading songs they didn't have the right or permission to do so. The best targets for these things are what most people would consider defenseless, like children and old people. Forget the fact that they are not actively seeking out children and old people to sue, it sounds much better to say "OMG, they are suing poor defenseless little kids who are 'sharing'!" and scream about it, then it is to say "they are suing another file sharer who is 'sharing' over 6,000 CDs of RIAA labels stuff that they don't have the rights to do so."

So thus is why they like yelling about this stuff, it helps them justify their immoral actions and rally people up against those putting a dent in their freeloading resources.

Personal Experience

[EdMcMan]

When I was in high school, I decided to pull a prank that involved changing our school's AUP to something more humorous. I did not mean them any harm, but they ended up launching a very big investigation that cost both money and time.

By interviewing students, they found out it was me. I was more or less given the opportunity to "resign" and go to another school (or be expelled). The matter was also turned over to the police.

Did I do something wrong? Yes! I have learned from my lesson. In my case, I had a happy ending. I switched to a private school, did some community service (where I am ended up networking the entire organization I was volunteering for) and escaped not only unscatched, but a more wise person.

Although the school district wanted to make an example out of me (and they did), I was given a second chance in both school and from the police.

This second chance does not exist in civil court! The only thing that can save Sunny is Apple realizing that Sunny is not the problem. Sunny made a mistake, and from I've read he has learned from it.

Apple, I have purchased various (expensive) hardware and software from you over the years. You are an innovative, non-traditional company. I hope that the collective genious that is Apple can find a way to solve the problem without condemning a few foolish students to failure in life.

Apple not that groovy...

[TractorBarry]

Just goes to show Apple aren't as groovy as people seem to think (not that I expect them to be they're a business after all)

But on this note if they were a "groovy" company then they'd allow Linux distros to switch on bytecode enconding when they compile Freetype.

The simple act of uncommenting this define and recompiling Freetype has turned my Linux boxs desktops from being an ugly and eye straining mess into being usable as a day to day desktop.

And the reason it's not switched on by default ? Apples patents.

Ho hum.

Civil charges

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the extradition act you linked. Extraditable conduct requires that the jail term assigned to the crime be pretty heavy. It also requires that the offence, if commited in Canada, would have had serious repercussions.

Nobody's going to be extradited over a breach of contract. It's a civil matter, and not a very serious one as these things go.

shh... big secrets...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd much rather have multiple desktops like most Unix variants

psst...

(In addition to Expose, OS X also supports multiple desktops.)

I'll keep playing with it...but, is annoying to have all the windows whisk away when my mouse accidently wanders into one of the corners of the screen...

psst...

(By default, Expose does not react to hot corners. It uses the F9 - F11 keys. You can set them up with hot corners if you like, but it is not required.)

Exactly! The Guy's Defense.. "I'm Stoopid"

[Black-Man]

The Cluetrain obviously missed this guy's station. Sheesh... "I was just sharing it with 4 or 5 other fanatics". OK, buddy, then put it on your website and let ur buds download it... then pull it. You don't put it on BitTorrent.

Some words of advice

[danila]

Folks, next time you want to break your NDA and share Apple or Microsoft pre-release software, please follow these simple steps.

1) Find some warez on your disk.
2) Read up some NFOs.
3) E-mail some pirate group and say you have some useless^H^H^H^Hful shit.
4) If they are interested, ask for an FTP address to upload it.
5) Upload the files.
6) Enjoy knowing that millions of people can safely get the "stuff" from their favourite P2P, you are completely safe (unless the copies are signed) and managed to "stick it to the man".

P.S. Stop seeding when the file was fully uploaded to the network.

Re:Greed

[mrchaotica]

FYI, the difference between 10.3 and 10.4 is not a service pack's worth of difference. It's a WinXP->Longhorn (or, hell, Blackcomb considering what they've dropped from Longhorn) worth of difference.

Re:Greed

[mrchaotica]

I think the problem is that everytime Apple updates OSX, there is some gotta-have features in it, which means forking out another $129. It's pure marketing.

How is adding features that are genuinely worth the upgrade price a bad thing? I wish more companies were so terrible!

Woz contributes $1000?

[JustNiz]

Woo BFD. This is obviously just a PR exercise rather than an acutal attempt at heleipng. The defence lawyers have already said any kind of defence will be $7500 minimum.

If Wozniak REALLY wanted to help he should drop this case. It's his company thats bringing it, after all.

Re:Woz contributes $1000?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Really? Wozniak is the CEO of Apple?

IHBT.

No, $99, we're talking upgrades here...

[name_already_taken]

The XP upgrade is available for $99.

How about $79 for XP, ($99 before rebate)?

We're talking about upgrades here, not the version of XP you would buy to install on a freshly built PC.

SP2 was and still is a free download for users of XP. SP2 is comparable to one of these .1 version upgrades for OS X.

Re:No, $99, we're talking upgrades here...

[Anonymous Coward]

SP2 is comparable to one of these .1 version upgrades for OS X.

Um... how so?

Get off the naming conventions. These OS X releases add significant features.

SP2 is primarily a bug fix/security enhancement release.

Every new OS X release has significant features...

10.3 has Expose, FileVault, Fast User Switching, Preview, Font Book, Xcode, etc.
10.4 has Dashboard, Spotlight, Automator, etc.

What did you get with SP2? The ability to block popups?

So tell me how they are similar again?

Re: Federated Usable...

[Anonymous Coward]

Captain obvious, is it really you?

reality distortion field

[goon]

maybe you ought to read descriptions about the Reality Distortion Field that surrounds Jobs.

Mac fans and students of product development should bookmark www.folklore.org. It is a valuable resouce for understanding *creativity*, software, hardware and other esoteric themes at Apple around the time the Mac was created.

F.U.C.D.

[rob_squared]

What an appropriate acronym.

personally, i have very little regard for "Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

What has Apple invented?

Apple computers are for:
1. rich kids
2. children of drug dealers.
in other words, people with extra money.

Apple's one relevance is professional software/hardware forpeople who make movies and records, in other words, professional production tools for the entertainment industry. that is their one use. So what does that have to do with computing?

I don't really see the difference between iPod and any other mp3 player. the super-success is totally lost on me.

like Microsoft, Apple will go out of business. The proprietary hardware model is just stupid. ...though again, good for:
1. rich kids
2. children of drug dealers
3. professionals in the entertainment industry.

PS ALL of those stupid ProTools albums are starting to sound exactly the same, with the nice smooth "puffy" compression. YUCK.

Missing the point.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

The point here is not that this guy should go un-punished, but that the punishment is unjust/excesive. Does this guy really deserve to basiclly have the rest of his life ruined, simply for breaking the NDA and copyright of some software?

Re:Missing the point.

[catdevnull]

The punishment should, indeed, fit the crime. However, the "crime" shouldn't be minimized. I think the NDA probably had some lists of prices to pay. Being ruined probably wan't one of them, but it shouldn't be a slap on the wrist--a contract is a contract.

I would think twice about signing an NDA and think three times about violating it.