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Intel Head Recommends Apple
pboulang writes "noted in this
article in the WSJ:
Pressed about security by Mr. Mossberg, Mr. Otellini had a startling confession: He spends an hour a weekend removing spyware from his daughter's computer. And when further pressed about whether a mainstream computer user in search of immediate safety from security woes ought to buy Apple Computer Inc.'s Macintosh instead of a Wintel PC, he said, "If you want to fix it tomorrow, maybe you should buy something else.""
Why not Linux? No spyware, or viruss to worry about. Its secure and stable. You can use what ever hardware you want. Maybe Apple is going to use intel hardware...
Gerald Ratner and Matthew Barrett both said they would be honoured to attend.
liqbase
...the head of Intel visited by the Mafia, changes story next day. "I meant Windows! Windows!!" he bleats.
As much as I love the MS hating, come on, what does he remove the spyware with, debug?
/total/ removing spyware.
This sound like a joke, and until he man comes to my house and tells me this to my face, I'll not believe him. An hour. Seriously? I don't know if I've spent an hour
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
If it did, I just rebooted.
Hey, my car keeps running out of gas. Let's get a horse.
But seriously, Windows was essentially designed to be insecure. People wanted a system that was easy to use, and didn't want to have to deal with unlocking all sorts of security measures just to get networking done. Eventually, people started exploiting the lack of security, and that's why it's so bad now.
I suppose a better analogy would be:
Hey, someone keeps breaking in and stealing my wallet. Let's put all of our money under the bed.
Doesn't really solve the present problem; just (temporarily) avoids it.
I am scientifically inaccurate.
Intel.... soon to be making apple processors? (but not x86!)
Linux would be better. They get educated, participate in an open source community
Not everybody who wants a car also wants to learn to be a mechanic. Maybe they just want a car that's reliable transportation out of the box.
Ah Ha! So Apple may be using Intel chips and now all of the sudden Intel PHBs are recommeding Apple computers. I see a corporate marriage here soon!
I dont see this as 'startling'. It is a well know fact that Apple computers are safer than those that run Windows... The fact that Mr.Otellini said that is not 'startling' either. He is probably saying this because there are rumours that Apple may be using Intel chips... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1819286,00.as p
As far as I know, the most secure machine a home user can have right now would be a no-OS computer with a Knoppix disk in the CD drive. Nothing would be stored on the hard drive but user files. Updating software would mean updating Knoppix. That'd work, right?
It doesn't matter what operating system you have. If people didn't click on random links in spam and download the latest new files without thinking, we'd have far less spyware. I know for a fact I rarely use anti-spyware software on my Windows machine now because I haven't had problems. *shrug*
US businesses that currently accept chip and PIN/signature
And he doesn't use any of the wide number of free spyware prevention and automatic removal tools because?
Madre de Dios! Es El Pollo Diablo! -- Captain Blondebeard
- Way more respect for Mr. Otellini. I had assumed he got the job due to mob ties.
- Hardly the point of his talk, or the article
Oh, and: "D" sounds like it was hella boring this year.There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
An hour a weekend? Jesus, that's one horny little girl...
This is rather untrue. I find Linux very usable. I find OSX very usable. It's just a matter of getting used to one. It's been a few years since I've switched to Linux from Windows, and now I can't use Windows for the life of me. I stumble around through it like, well, someone who's never used it before. Since I am used to Linux, I find it much more usable than Windows. Someone who is used to Windows will find it more usable than Linux. Same goes for any other OS's. Catch my drift?
Buckethead
Is this proof of a weakening Wintel alliance? It is very strange to hear such an admission from Otellini. Perhaps he is upset that MS spent so little effort in the past securing PCs that the trend now is away from them [and Intel's bread and butter].
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
Only one commercial operating system has ever survived battle with a Windows botnet fleet. It is behind my firewall. Yours is in front of my firewall. If you want to fix it tomorrow, buy something else.
- Ambassador d'Ellen, of the Macintosh Federation.
(Like, it was a really really good Federation.)
Reporter: "Do you get viruses?"
Intel Guy: "Yes, yes."
Reporter: "If I want to solve the virus problem tomorrow, should I buy Apple?"
Intel Guy: "If you want to solve it tomorrow, you should buy something else."
Reporter: "Headline: Intel says to buy Apple!"
Intel Guy: "Uh. What part of 'buy something else' did you not understand?"
Slashdot guy: "Why RTFM? Making fun of the summary vs. the headline is more fun."
fifth sigma, inc.
"An hour. Seriously? I don't know if I've spent an hour /total/ removing spyware."
Well i work for a fair sized company i would say that a typical mywebsearch, comet cursor, 180solutions, screensaver inc, etc spyware infection takes about 20 minutes to disinfect.
for this i would be using
hijack this
spybot search and destroy
and the microsoft anti spyware
Oh and the most important thing is to do it from SAFE MODE with network. I would recomend installing and running all those tools from safe mode. This includes downloading the updates. The only exception would be the microsoft one since it needs WMI to install which does not work in safemode.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
no one else will notice.
I know why.
I am a long time Linux user, and happy free software advocate. Been using Linux for years and am completely microsoft-free.
I've been given free versions (legally) of all the versions of Windows 2000 and Windows XP on several cds with the ability to install it on whatever I want. (Windows CD's, along with AOL cds, make nice coasters.. Well no they don't. but they work in a pinch).
Linux is difficult to understand. That's all.
You know for most sound cards, if you want more then one application to make sound at one time you have to configure dmix?
That's not easy. And is just a example.
OS X on the other hand is easy. It works and is easier to use then OS X.
That being said I find for personal use that Linux is much superior.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Sure a Windows PC's security sucks. ... But with Microsoft turning to Power PC chips for its XBOX and with Apple in talks with Intel, is this just a sign that sign that the Wintel alliance is fraying
Hrm... i'm sure that wont go over so hot with the stock holders. But really, it's not his companies' fault. The CPU just executes code like it should, and their CPUs do a decent job at it (the price/perfomance ratio vs AMD aside).
Interested that he should say this, especially with Apple/Intel cooperation rumors surfacing recently. Anyone care to speculate ? (we all know the mac rumor sites are going to be jumping up and down on this one)
I'm trying to blast the Spyware and Trojan Horses and Ad Ware off of my cousins computer but the dirty blighters stick to Winblows PC's like a rabid barnacle on the Titanic, reboot and their back!.... to be truly honest I am completely sick of fixing Windows PC's and would gladly install SuSE would my cousin let me. Unfortunately fear and "needing games" stops him...
Resident of Skara Brae since 1985
Well for one, I remove spyware as a side job. I have noticed something about the "average" internet user. They would click on popups whether they used windows, linux, or os x. The reason windows is more prone to spyware, is because people who are "digitally inept", choose that microsoft product. Now, if people really move to os x, I am sure there will be the same problems in some shape or form. They will not go away. So, all the folks that are "digitally inept" go ahead and switch to os x...you still won't understand the concept of a CDROM drive.
You're purely delusional if you think Linux is as usable as OS X.
.app to Desktop. Drag to /Applications if you want.
./configure --with-froot-loops --some-other-thing --gravy-boat --use-libs=/usr/someplace/libs/local/libs/local_li bs/glibs/local/some_other_libs...
Installing software on OS X: disk image downloads, mounts, copies
Installing software on Linux:
Looking for some bullshit...5.6
*** Configure error: You need some bullshit 5.6.10.2 or greater. You do know what that is and how to get it, don't you???
People who complain about these things are indeed too stupid to use a computer, or simply ignorant, in which case using an operating system that is not so massively targeted will work better for them.
OS X does not automatically increase people's IQ by a 100 points, despite claims to the contrary.
Just wait until there's Gator and Super Cursors (or whatever) for OS X. Then we'll see what the difference is between Windows and other operating systems. If the only thing standing between malware and some kid's computer is a dialog asking the root password then I'm really not inclined to feel any safer.
Security is not a product, it's a state of mind.
was actually thinking of putting Intel chips(ugh!) into their machines, these are just the kind of things I would expect this man to say.
What?
The only thing worse is an all-boys school - then you have hacking to go along with the spyware to deal with.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Pressed about security nagora had a startling confession: If a platform has been around for 20 years, that means it should be secure for even the most idiotic user. Airplanes, for example. Anybody should be able to fly them. Same with cars -- if a kid can't drive one, it's shit! Moral backbone, my ass. Can you open this child-proof bottle for me???
Avpryl qbar...
Wouldn't it have been in his best interest, being the head of an x86 chip maker and all, to recommend an x86 alternative to Windows instead of a PPC one? Nice of him to give an honest answer at least, just hope he's not in shit for it... ;)
OTOH, maybe if the rumours about Apple and Intel joining forces are true, then he would have alterior motives for his comment after all. Of course, a Mac sale now is still only helping IBM or Motorola and not Intel just yet.
putfwd.com - 1GB Free file storage with a twist
If you don't want to spend your life providing free tech support for your relatives the best advice is this:
...
1. Have them buy Apple computers (hint, OS X is BSD). Whenever they ask, just say "What do you think you should do?" They will say "X." You say "Try it" X works. No more calls!
2. Rip out any IE or other browsers and replace them with either Firefox or Opera. If Opera, set it up for them once.
3. Download and make them use spyware and show them what they shouldn't do.
4. Walk away and enjoy a quiet known only to those who have ditched Wintel
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
'nuff sed.
The CB App. What's your 20?
Seriously, I tried getting a digital cam working on my friend's mac mini and I couldn't. All the drivers for it that I could find were for Mac OS 9.
If your friends camera is so old the manufacturer didn't make OS.X drivers for it you will probably have problems finding XP drivers for it as well. Not that it matters I solved that same of crappy OS.X camera drivers/software by buying a $20 memory card reader.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Apple, it's what's for Desktops.
A smart person has a Linux server running the firewall with Gigabit internet which a bunch of Apple computers (Macs) connect to.
Problem solved. Security and geekiness at the back end, and maybe a nice database or two - Cuteness and always works on the front end, safe and secure while Linux does the dirty work.
Problem solved!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
OS X on the other hand is easy. It works and is easier to use then OS X.
I disagree, Linux is easy. It works and is easier to use then Linux.
He didn't specifically say buy a Mac. He said if you don't want to waste time dealing with viruses buy "something else." That could be a Mac or a PC with Intel Inside (TM) running Linux.
(Yes, I like my Mac with the dual G4 processors, but let's be honest about what Otellini's saying here)
I am so smart!
I am so smart!
S-M-R-T!
I mean S-M-A-R-T!
Yeah, but most of the time, people send them to mechanics to get those problems fixed, because not everybody has the time or ability to become a mechanic themselves.
Similarly, the expectation in free/open source circles that everybody that uses the software should become a programmer is a tad bit unrealistic.
One man's selflessness is another man's annoyance.
If market share is the only reason Windows is so susceptible to viruses, then why is MS IIS so susceptible as compared to, say, Apache?
The reverse analogy *might* be true - that becuase Windows was designed primarily for 'moron end users' (without any real concern for security), is the reason it has a near monopoly share of that market. But computer users are slowly realizing the tradeoff they are making, and many are making new decisions.
Maybe his daughter should stop executing what she downloads from the porn and warez sites she frequents...
Seriously, I have yet to get a spyware infection. How? My desktop account is a Limited user. Even if I accidentally execute a file, it doesn't have access to modify my system.
Show me what OS stops the root account from being able to trash their system...
And someone thinks this is "Insightful?" Double Wow.
What's his daughter browsing? Hardcore pr0n and warez sites?
How old is the daughter? Maybe she's 5.
Maybe this also shows that a Windows box isn't quite as easy to deal with as people claim.
use the right tools and you won't have problems regardless of which o/s you use.
I agree that Macintosh systems are great simply because right now, theres no threat to it like windows machines but that doesn't really solve much.
Imagine the following 3 groups of people:
Group A: Angry PC users going nuts from spyware, viruses, etc.
Group B: OS-X users
Group V: Virus, Spyware and bullcrap writers.
Group A is getting annoyed fixing their pc's just to get up and running like it should.
Group B notices that the problem is related to viruses, spywares so Group B reccomends Group A to try OS-X out
Group A says "0mfgbbq OS-X is awesome".
few years later...
Group V notices the rise of OS-X and start writing junk for OS-X.
What will you do in that situation? Basically, instead of teaching the users how to safely navigate the web, you're telling them to ignore the problem using "this" tool. It's as if the spyware/virus/trojan makers are saying "This is our crap, don't like it? change platform, we'll get you another day".
Money's money. Doesn't grow on trees, yet. When people have problems with their computers, I generally check it out and suggest them to use the right tools if they want no headaches and when they do take the reccomendation, their experience of checking email, IM and navigating the web wouldn't change much if they had OS-X or an easy Linux Distro.
I'd duck for cover on that argument. Many will debate about users running as Administrator on Windows where they don't run as root on Mac.
Truth is, you're right. Look at FF. It's gaining momentum. For some reason now I get FF popups. And I see more exploits for FF now.
Let's face it, as popularity increases, so is the incentive to exploit, despite the fanboys who argue otherwise.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
It seems to me that this comment of "fixing it tomorrow" is indicative of a future when booting a Mac could be as dangerous as a WinTel out of the box. Increased popularity of the Mac platform will give increased cachet to those who can manipulate that undeveloped area to their advantage. It will be a challenge for Apple to continue its "virus-free" status in the coming years, especially if the Intel rumor ever proves to be true.
- I forgive myself for creating chaos.
When asked whether somebody should buy an Apple rather than a Wintel machine, he simply said "maybe they should buy something else".
People are just reading a deliciously ironic inference into what he said. Logically, his advice could be followed by buying anything from an Acorn to a zSeries.
I assume he just means that Windows is not a good choice for somebody who doesn't have a high tech CEO they can call on for sysadmin maid work.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You're all completely missing the point of my post.
a) It was meant to be sarcastic. I don't actually give a shit what OS anybody uses.
b) Windows has more spyware because it's the dominant OS and therefore the most targeted. Apple would have more spyware if it had more users.
c) Getting spyware when visiting "certain pages" is like getting mugged when visiting "certain neighborhoods". It would be nice if it hadn't happened, but what the hell were you doing there in the first place???
Really now...
Neat. Thanks. I'm replying to bookmark this somewhere I can find it later. You kick ass.
My little site.
Then why can't Red Hat Fedora Core 3 play sound on my new Dell desktop? How much time (that I don't have), will I have to spend to get Linux to where it does everything Mac OS X does without any effort on my part?
I am posting as an AC because I'm in the industry and as a manufacturer I've dealt with Mr. Mossberg serveral times. Reading the actual article I can easily tell what actually transpired. Mossberg can be very abrasive and sometimes downright mean. He has his preconceived notion and there's no telling him any different. He will hammer at you rapid fire and throw you off balance and then come in with a zinger question. In this case he was laying an ambush for Otellini. Note that *Mossberg* is the one who said Apple (he has a pro-Mac bias). Otellini just said maybe you should install "something else". I'll bet that Otellini was thinking Linux.
Also, Mossberg got Otellini playing "hypotheticals" a big no-no in the PR game ("what *IF* you had to solve this tomorrow"). I can also easily imagine how Otellini brought up the example of his daughter in passing after Walt brought up his own horror stories. Swapping such stories is a way of getting in sync with someone in a conversation. Did Otellini actually mean *every* weekend? Or maybe just once? He might have misspoken in an off-hand remark he viewed as an aside anyway. This is why the Pentagon now audio tapes every interview between key staffers and journalists. Too many times, the intent is improperly (and likely intentionally) misrepresented.
People wonder why big-time execs resort to vague replies in interviews. Well, a few more run-ins with sneaky journalists who are gunning for him and Otellini will probably get vague too.
--- Momentarily Anonymous
What the hell? What a thinly stretched extrapolation... the article only says:
That's it about her. Where the hell do you get anything about the character of this girl, much less the liscense to critique the guy's parenting style?
Just another example of the retarded parenting advice regularly spewed out by some of its obviously childless members of /..
You know what?
Mozilla Firefox!
"Prevention. Regular maintanence. A computer is no different than any other appliance. Deal with it."
Is it now? I have never had to do any regular maintenance on any appliance I have ever owned, nor have they ever needed it. The simply work.
Either a PC isn't an appliance or it is a poorly made one. There is no real excuse for people having to deal with spyware issues. Even if the OS is flawed, why don't the PC makers do something to make the situation easier to manage?
Clearly time to replace the Blue Man Group with... The Four Horsemen.
Paul Otellini isn't hurting even slightly for money, but he's seriously short of time with his family. So he spends one of the few hours he gets a week with his daughter playing with her computer instead of with her? What, he doesn't know how to find competent tech support people?
If I held any Intel stock, I'd be dumping it with news like this of the head dude's decision-making.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
That's why OS X gives those files to the root account, and will only delete them if the user has administrative access and provides a password to do it.
There have been rumors of Apple using Intel chips for 15 YEARS now.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
I have a hard time getting from:
Q: If I don't like spyware should I use an Apple?
A: You should use something else
to
"Intel Head Recommends Apple!"
Seems that "something else" includes Linux, BSD, Be, and many other things that actually runs on an x86... since Otellini is unlikely to actually upset Microsoft by saying "Microsoft is bad!", "Something else" is probably the strongest rejection of Microsoft (though not necessarily endoresement of Apple) that he could get away with in print...
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
Because the user files can't be that important, right?
Really, It's all about the user files. If noone cared about their user files, then security would not be an issue. We could just wipe our computer's clean everynight. But it's not so - backups are a huge pita, so we do everything we can to avoid reloading the os.
Sure knoppix solves some of this by making the OS read only, and forcing the user to keep their files on a separate filesystem. But there are still a few problems with this.
First of all, the system is made up of processes in memory. There is nothing to stop an attacker from having the user download a malicious app to their own filesystem and running it from there, or even terminating or replacing system processes. Nothing aside from unix security - score one more for knoppix vs. windows, I guess.
More importantly, the user's data is still on a read-write media. As I already mentioned, this is really the important stuff. If someone can find a hole in Firefox that can delete your home directory, you won't really care that the system is still safe, will you?
And finally, the if the user wants to install software that is not on the CD, they are out of luck. That is unless they can install it into their home directory. Review problem 1 for why this counteract the benefit of a read-only system disk.
If booting off of a CD makes knoppix more secure, then RiscOS must be even more secure, since it boots from ROM. It probably is, but not for that reason - more likely because it's not a target. Knoppix is certainly more convenient to secure because of the reason you mentioned, but is not really any more secure than a hard-disk based linux like fedora.
Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...
Note that my position on this mainly comes from having been a Mac user for all my life, and having programmed for Mac for several years. I can think of any number of ways of introducing malware into a mac system even if the user is not running as root.
Operating systems having an innate resistance to spyware is rather hard, since there's no way of immediately noticing whether a program is doing any spying in addition to its normal operations.
Hence, no, I'm not intending this as a provocation. I'm writing this on my very own TiBook!
and she will be able to learn safe computing without a computer how?
That's a bit of a straw man, though. No one ever suggested that "everybody that uses the software should become a programmer." I'm a long-time, happy user of various flavors of Linux (mostly Gentoo and Debian), but I'm certainly no programmer.
Similarly, if I owned a car, while I might not be able to realign the tires (or whatever), I would at least take the time to know how to throw on a spare, should the need arise, or to know to take the thing in to have the oil changed regularly.
It's the same thing with computers, no matter what operating system: you don't need to be a specialist to be a responsible user, and no one seriously suggests otherwise.
Sean Daugherty "I have walked in Eternity -- and Eternity weeps."
Let me see... You give the user the choice between:
.dmg image that gets automounted, copying the Application to the applications folder, entering a password. Presto the Application is ready to use. ...and you really think that the average user will have trouble choosing? I like LINUX as much as the next guy and I use both LINUX and OS.X alot but let me tell you that LINUX isn't ready for Joe/Jane user by a long shot. In the ease-of-use department OS.X is still lightyears ahead.
1) Downloading a
2) Weeding his/her way throught this before he/she can update/install their Applications.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
I should probably just say that I'm sure Macs have some Intel chips in there somewhere, and that I understand that this remark may have been strategic. I recognise that Intel are trying to distance themselves from the whole "Wintel" thing. The new CEO could have simply been emphasising the fact that Intel is not tied to Microsoft and is trying to grab a bigger piece of the Apple pie.
The already are immune.
http://homepage.mac.com/chevyorange
Wow, I wasn't sure at first, but now that Anonymous Coward has denied the story I guess theres nothing to do but move along.
I have never had to do any regular maintenance on any appliance I have ever owned, nor have they ever needed it. The simply work.
That's all 'maintenance' and have-to-learn things.
fucktard is a tenderhearted description
now I can't use Windows for the life of me. I stumble around through it like, well, someone who's never used it before.
It only gets worse too... I started playing with Linux when it was v0.95a, and went on to master SunOS 4.x and various flavors of Solaris up to present day, as well as MacOS X.2 and up. The last version of Windows I was any good with was 3.11 WFW, and my Mom still expects me to fix her XP machine...
More entertaining is Scott McNealy's section
... For another $2.4 billion maybe I won't say that."
Sun's decision to make peace with Microsoft Corp. more than a year ago gave Mr. McNealy's company some $2 billion in cash...
*snip*
Mr. McNealy compared Sun's agreement with Microsoft to a pair of boxers who shake hands by tapping gloves and "promise not to bite each other's ears off." But he got in at least a nip, telling the audience that while Sun does run Windows to ensure interoperability, employees who aren't in engineering aren't allowed "to connect Windows to our network for security and viruses reasons.
Sorry to disappoint you. I happen NOT to be a proud owner of one of those glorious Apple-built boxes, instead I have to make do with common x86 'crap'. But since I use x86 hardware, that makes Mac OSX totally useless to me, since last I heard, Mac OSX simply doesn't run on x86 (emulating aside).
On the other hand, Linux does perfectly well on my box. Maybe Mac OSX is way better (I wouldn't know, no experience with OS X myself), but I'm pretty happy with how Linux works for me.
Because the people we're talking about don't give a fuck about using whatever hardware they want?
If you mean most people don't care about what exactly is under the hood, then you're right. But some things they care about are plain and simple:
Not to bash OS X or Apple in any way. Just remember that at the time being, it ONLY comes as a complete package (hardware, + OS that runs on it). OSX on anything besides Apple hardware doesn't fly, and x86 binaries on Apple hardware don't fly.
Hell, I'd seriously consider buying PowerPC based hardware myself. 2 things kept me from that sofar: 1) Pricing (bang-per-buck), and 2) having to toss out almost ALL software I currently have. Note that this is one reason for me to switch to Linux - to make the underlying hardware less important.then use a mac, its easier than windows.
I understand that OS X is due for at least some Spyware. I'm sure it's gonna happen.
But... this argument that OS X is a smaller market and therefore avoids attention has some flaws. We have viruses for cellphones and viruses for obscure routers.
You'd think that by now we'd have some of this stuff for OSX. Also, by definition most mac users have more money to throw around thatn PC users (costs more). You'd think that people with a higher income would be like a juicy arm that the mosquito-like asses who write virii and spyware would swoop to.
There has to be some other X factor that's sheltered them this long. I suspect that it's much harder to get your spyware onto the machine. Apple bundles about 90% of what everyone wants, and the other 10% is well-established stuff. Also, Apple makes it easy to make lots of things. For example, screensavers that pan across pictures (a major source of spyware in the windows world, free screensaver!) are easy to customize and make on OS X.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
You forgot to mention the magic ability to actually run and function correctly with a limited user account. Try that on windows and you'll have an aneurism within an hour.
Hey, someone keeps breaking in and stealing my wallet. Let's put all of our money under the bed.
I think with OS X the anology would rather be:
Let's put our money in a safe in a basement behind a locked door that actually says "Are you sure you want to open this door?" when I try to open it. I try again and somehow rename the door.
Sorry inside mac humor, but in seriousness the friggin OS is secure a greate deal more than windows. Everytime I want to install something or let something install even though I am logged in as admin it says "are you sure you want to run this?" and if requires system changes it asks me for my password.
Obviously social engineering can defeat this, but you aren't going to surf to a web page and magically find that a gazillion programs installed themselves and you have to hunt down each file in the registry and nuke the dlls and those damn random file names and curse anyways because IE died for the sixtieth time and your tpc/ip stack is now hosed so you have to go to a working computer and hunt down dll files on the net which is nothing but forum messages of people asking for the same file with no reply... *huff* *puff* And to think I fixed the issues all without formatting and got IE to work again (shortly installing firefox on these persons computers).
To make a long story short, the day I find spy ware on any OS X machine (not even my own), I will agree with you that this temporarily avoids the problem. Until then...
No.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
You had to wait until AFTER Apple switches to Intel chips to say that!
Probably only a slight one. Linux's security model makes it unusual for an app to request admin privileges, thus decreasing the probability of executable compromise. Of course worms _would_ be a problem, but spyware per se would be rare - user must _install_ the spyware, usually by accident, and that's less probable.
Which is archaic, underfeatured, browser-reliant, slow, centralized, ugly and ms-centered. I cannot upgrade firefox, photoshop or whatever by means of Windows Update.
Wow! On servers? Production? Err... ok, now I understand.
Segmentation fault. Ore dumped.
If, suddenly, 50 or 60 security flaws are detected in various Apple products I'm sure that patches would be developed quickly, but will they be deployed as quickly as Microsoft currently deploys them? Would the users install them? No!
... other vulnerabilities don't get fixed even then. SP2 left, what, half a dozen known IE vulnerabilities unpatched?
Um, I've been doing daily updates of my computer since OS X was released five years ago. When security flaws have surfaced, I've found them to be patched within 48 hours and available immediately. A pop-up tells me they're there, I click and auth, and I'm done. I can install them while working on other stuff and don't usually even have to reboot. OS X auto-update has been around forever and Apple is extremely good about updating quickly.
Back when that feature was first available on Macs, Windows 2000 was the state of the Microsoft are: it required you to manually visit a website, and reboot after each individual patch. Thousands of Win2k boxen are STILL not up to date.
On top of it, many windows security patches take weeks to months to emerge when an exploit is published. Some aren't released as patches, instead are rolled into the next Service Pack, whenever the hell that gets out. And then
I'm comfortable running an OS X box -even one running 10.1 or 10.2 - on the internet with no external firewall, if necessary, knowing that any security flaws will be fixed rapidly. I couldn't do that with any of my windows boxes, even the most modern XP SP2 machines, without breaking down in terror over what might happen to my data.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
The quote is:
:"'Should we buy an Apple?' 'Sure, if you want crap buy something else [Apple].'"
"If you want to fix it tomorrow, buy something else."
Note the lack of "don't" in the statement. Even in context of the question, that whole statment is open for interpretation, and not a clear endorsement for Apple.
Buy something other than what? What he is obviously endorsing
Something other than the question; "'Should we buy an Apple?' 'If you want to fix it tomorrow, buy something else [other than an Apple].'"
They are both reasonable interpretations of the quote.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
If this is an every-weekend thing, he really needs to consider a change of tactics: Spend an hour a weekend beating some sense into his stupid stupid daughter! (and/or himself)
Even the *really* dumb punters that come to me with computers loaded to the gills with spyware crap don't come back with repeat problems after the first time. Clean the computers, put a couple of blocking whassnames, remove MSIE, MS Lookout Express, MSN Messenger, MS Media Player, replace with Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM or Miranda IM and Media Player Classic/Real Alternative/Quicktime Alternative. Beat a bit of sense into the punter (not much, just an inkling of a clue is usually enough) and they go away... usually never to be re-infected.
This isn't rocket science.
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Wow, with users like you, it's hard to imagine how Linux got the reputation of being pretty unfriendly to work with.
Your post just makes it feel like you're giving me a big, warm hug...
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
There were times when Jobs used PC machines, too. Shows these two guys don't buy into their own marketing just as IT people should not.
Given than I consider maintenance something you do to make certain something keeps working:
Used 'headcleaner' cassette in VCR?
Rarely, but I'll give you that one, also cassette player cleaner
(Re)Tuned channels in TV?
You mean pushing a few buttons on the remote to auto-tune? This is more like initial setup than maintenance.
Set the clock on VCR/TV after power outage?
Again, initial setup, not really maintenance (they won't stop working if I don't care what time the clock says)
Changed batteries in any autonomous appliance?
I'll give you that, but most of mine are cordless rechargables, and I have a dog to herd the truly autonomous ones.
Synced PDA to computer?
Isn't that normal use, and usually automated?
Cleaned the grease out of oven?
Self-cleaning.
Washed the keyboard?
The PC keyboard? I don't compute covered in mud.
Replaced shell of phone?
I don't even know what that means, I've had the same phone for ages and it just works.
Removed crumbs from a toaster?
Conceded, but the tray makes that trivial (toaster oven), this is also more in the area of "cleaning"
Melt ice from freezer?
Auto defrosting.
Changed any lightbulbs?
Lightbulbs are appliances? That would be equipment replacement, not really maintenance.
Thanks to VB and COM and all that crap running behind everything in Windows, all that mal/spyware crap just slides down the pipe with great invisibility.
If Macs became more popular, they might have a problem with viruses, but I am not certain where the pathology vector lies with that - even when Apple was a really significant part of market vack in the late 80s and early 90s there were comparatively few viruses for the platform. That might change if it went back up to 20%, but I'm not certain, given the present infection process, that 20% would be enough to permit enough propagation to create a pathological growth curve.
Oh, and Yes: OS X has REGULAR security updates, that are sometimes fairly frequent.
best,
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I would like to hear some OS X users opinions on this post.
You sure about that? I'll just say that yes, OS X has Software Update, which pulls & applies patches from Apple.
But with all due respect, I can't take the time to rebut your post as there are just too many BS "points" and "facts" in there. Here's one of my faves:
The thing morons like this Intel guy don't realise is that Windows only gets viruses and spyware because virus and spyware writers get the most reach by targeting the OS that runs on 90% of desktop computers.
So, the *only* reason it "gets" viruses is because it's popular? With respect sir, you're simply out of touch with reality. Time's up...
The real threat to MS is clearly malware/spyware/adware. the fact that everyone in my family who isn't a CS major has a ton of popup shit all over their computer, IE toolbars called seach assist and search buddy and bonzai search assist buddy and other such bullshit. The fact that Christmas is known as the "ad-aware, spybot S&D, Hijack This, Firefox, Thunderbird lecture circuit" time of year. The fact that people who have bought a mac are pleasantly using their computers while the rest of us are fixing, securing, patching, repairing, disinfecting and updating ours. All of these are what's killing windows. Not just nix, not just "free software" not just apple.
If MS could sick their policy people on making it fucking illegal to be a company that profits from secretly installing shit on people's computers then maybe they wouldn't have me and so many others saying " my next PC will be a mac, no question".
because it's true, my next pc will be a mac, no question.
The fact that the RIAA can get a 12 year old locked up for downloading 3 megs of a nelly song, and yet cool web search is legally allowed to fuck up every computer on the internet is sickening. And if MS wants to stay in business they have two choices.
1) hire cool web search programmers to infect the OSX
2) take a page out of the RIAA book and purchase some congressscritters and make this spyware/malware shit illegal as fuck. then find and prosecute the perps.
Something has to be done, even if that something means buying a mac (and enjoying computing once again).
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
This laptop is Windows 2000.
... 0 virus, 0 spyware infections.
I don't run a personal firewall.
I don't run an anti-virus system.
But I just did a spyware and virus scan (for the first time since I set this machine up, like 6 months ago) and I had
My secret?
I use Firefox.
I have sane policies for NOT clicking on everything.
Not running things sent to me in email.
Gee, can't be that difficult...
Heh. This has been gone over many, many, many times, and it's utter bullshit. Think of how much legal software gets ported to OS X. It's not the whole pie, but it's quite a lot. Why do people port it? Because there's a market there. Now, think really hard about that. Why would all of the virus and spyware writers pass up another opportunity to do their business? I'll give you a hint: It's not because OS X is a smaller market share. Maybe, just maybe, it's because it's exceedingly difficult to successfully create and implement viruses and spyware for OS X. I'll grant you, if OS X had the market share that Windows does, there would be some viruses and spyware, as being the dominant platform encourages people to write them. However, if Windows were in the same market share as OS X is currently, and it still posessed the vulnerabilities it has, it would still be rife with viruses and spyware.
By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
This isn't exactly like having root access, but it's pretty close. It allows you to sudo -s and become root whenever you want, but remain a regular user the rest of the time.
If you go into the System folder and start deleting (or moving, renaming, whatever) things, you're immediately required to authenticate and become root in order to do it. No password, no deleting.
Although I'm not too familiar, I imagine that someone with root/administrator access on a Windows box can similarly screw things up with a few well-chosen deletions. Let's face it: any modern computer has to store critical files somewhere on the drive, and any decent operating system is going to have a way to let superusers modify them. If you let idiot users become root or Administrators, they're going to screw things up.
Stupidity is platform-independent, I'm afraid.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
The head of Intel DID NOT recommend apple. He merely said "you should buy something else". "Something else" certainly includes all flavors of Linux and BSD which may be based on Intel processors.
Slashdot editors should be more careful about the text of the articles they approve.
The "startling" part about it is that here we have a CEO who stated something that does nothing to help his business (on the contrary it actually hurts it) and it is the truth . Good lord, this is something to write home about folks! Mr. Gates and Mr. Balmer, are you taking notes?
Joking aside, I say more power to you Otellini. In the business world, truth is in a very short supply and it's good to see a business man who won't resort to lying, deceit, and FUD to try and boost his company's sales. *salutes*
Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
Been doing it for nearly 10 years. No heart problems yet.
For your "if Apple had a Windows-sized market share it would have Windows-sized problems" comment: I will respond with - /. in general.
standard_reply_1 -- Apache blah blah Windows blah blah, larger marketshare DOES NOT IMPLY more problems. Configuring a system intelligently does a lot to prevent many problems from ever becoming an issue. For more details I refer you to every 8th post in this thread, as well as every 20th post on
...as well as:
standard_reply_2 -- The Mac OS is configured to prevent a user from being able to install malware. It is configured to prevent connections from the big bad internet. It has a firewall in place and configured out of the box. You have to enter a root password to install anything. It is not perfect, but by being set up correctly at the outset they have guaranteed that in your marketshare reversal scenario, the Mac users would as a whole, be in better shape than the current crop of Windows folken. By default, your average Mac internet user is already non-privileged and firewalled. That's what we're trying to get Windows users to please please please start doing!
Now a higher marketshare does imply that more effort would be spent on finding Mac exploits, and I fully grant that in turn would create more problems than we have now. But I feel you overstated your case. There is a lot of terrain between "worse than Macs now" and "as bad as Windows now."
And for your distinction between the kernels of NT/OSX/*nix vs. the end user environment: You're doing a little bit of a strawman there. Windows does not allow for you to pull out many of the "extras" and so making a claim that Windows without a browser would be as secure as OSX without a browser is a bit disingenuous. A large part of the security problems plaguing Windows rely on the ability of (eg.) your browser to touch things that a browser ought never to touch.
You made a very good point, however, that Mac users check for updates with less frequency and less urgency than Windows now requires. And as market share increases, yeah, Mac users will have to adapt somewhat. While ease of the updates is a bonus for Macs, the timeline of bugfixes and the average mean time to clicking "software update" both need to mature as Mac OSX takes over your city, county, state, country, world, mwa-hah, hah-ha, hah. Ha ha.
Sorry, almost got out of control there.
What did I say that was so bad? (seriously, I'm not trying to be an ass here). Up until the comment about Fedora, I was making counterpoints to his claims.
I've not had a problem getting linux to work with all of my hardware on most distros. The exception being any RedHat since 7. Nothing's ever worked out of the box. Mandrake is usually very good about it. Even debian has always had drivers available for what I needed. I haven't tried RedHat in a couple years, so maybe Fedora's better than RH used to be, but I've heard nothing but complaining about Fedora Core 2, so why would I want to switch to that?
He said something stupid. Obviously Mac OS is 'just going to work', because they control the HW and the OS. Windows never 'just works', but it comes close enough becaues of hours spent slaving away by developers trying to work through its inconsistencies (I'm a bit bitter, I'm one of them). Linux based operating systems usually have only volunteers working for them, and yet manage to still somewhat keep up with most mainstream things.
I've gotten linux running on several laptops. I blame Dell if it's making things that are using strange parts that don't work with Linux yet.
Yeah, but I'm guessing you know a lot more about computers than you do about cars.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
If Intel has some PPC-ish chip it's a possibility. I seriously doubt Apple would ever make the switch to X86, as it would make it a lot easier for people to run OS X on generic hardware, which would take a major incentive away from buying Apple hardware. Having users who own your hardware gives you a much better grip on the market than users using your software. Look at SEGA when they had the Genesis, versus now.
Your post involves a
( ) technical (x) social ( ) moral
comment about computer security. This comment is incorrect. Here's why it's incorrect:
( ) You have no idea how system security works
(x) You assume that popularity is inversely proportional to security
( ) You make improper use of technical language
(x) You assume that part of the problem is the entire problem
(x) You fail to account for different security models.
Specifically, your comment fails to consider that:
( ) Security flaws can be exploited in an automated manner
(x) Not all bugs are security flaws
( ) Security flaws can be exploited manually
( ) Legions of script kiddies use point-and-drool tools
( ) Dedicated black-hats can cause damage using home-designed tools
(x) Privilege separation prevents many problems
( ) Some security flaws are strictly theoretical
(x) Different systems are inherently more or less vulnerable to exploits
( ) Security flaws can be independently discovered
( ) Security flaw discovery and exploit does not require source code
(x) Not all security flaws are of the same severity
(x) Running as root is almost always a problem, no matter the system
( ) Not all viruses are transmitted by e-mail
( ) Not all viruses are self-propagating
( ) Not all security flaws are buffer overruns
( ) Stupid people do stupid things
and the following general objections may also apply:
( ) Full disclosure completely informs affected system administrators
( ) Exploit code has legitimate uses
(x) Security is by design, not accident
( ) Security isn't magic, and thinking of it that way is harmful
( ) Hackers/crackers aren't evil magicians who can get around anything
( ) Security starts with the user
( ) Why should we trust the government?
( ) Why should we trust you?
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(x) Nice idea, but it's been said before and that doesn't make it any more true.
( ) That's an incredibly stupid idea, and you're stupid for suggesting it.
( ) You're a moron, and I'm surprised you have enough brain cells to continue breathing.
"Evil company X is threatening to restrict our rights! Let's all get together to stop--OOOH! SHINEY!!!" -- AC
the good news is there's a fix for the popups- the bad news is it's annoying we have to do it.
.swf file in the list. highlight it and click ok.
When you find a page like that, click on the Adblock button in the bottom right corner and locate the
if you're feeling clever, put some *'s in there to block all swf's from that server.
what's happening is people are using the pop-up feature in flash and put a little invisible flash bug on websites.
bloody annoying.
by blocking those flash files, you'll eventually get no popups like that... might take a week- it's like tuning a spam filter.
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
This points a huge flaw in intel's business plan.
they are directly and inextricibly tied to a single entity -- microsoft. The vast majority of intel's business depends entirely upon Microsoft.
This is a big no-no in the business world, especially since Intel has very little control over microsoft -- Microsoft could theorietically begin to endorse IBM's PowerPC, orchestrate an (illegal) deal with Dell and HP, and silently make the switch by bundling a version of Windows that runs on PPC, but maintains full backward compatibility with x86.
As it currently stands, intel has no freedom. Their fate is doomed to be the same as Microsoft unless they somehow diversify. Granted, as time has shown us by SGI and Sun, diversification is not always a good thing, but for a company the size of intel, having all of its eggs in one basket surely cannot be a good thing. AMD has proved this, as much of its business lies outisde of desktop processors -- it's embedded device and flash memory segments do very well. Granted, intel also produces other products, but has definitely endorsed a policy of the consolidation of their products.
Diversification has worked beautifully for companies like IBM and GE. 10 years ago, I do not think that IBM would have been able to dump its PC business without significantly damaging themselves.
On a similar beat, it is interesting to note diversification in other fields. From an operational standpoint, General Motors is not a car company (that divison loses money). It is a bank. Their financial arm (GMAC) produces far more revenue than the car-making portion. If we invented cheap, effective teleportation, thus eliminating the need for automobiles, GM wouldn't be hurt too badly.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Dmix necessary for most sound cards? I don't think so, unless by "most sound cards" you mean "really freakin' old sound cards." Almost every modern card, including the on board sound on every single motherboard I've used in the past 2 or so years, my 5 year old Sound Blaster Live, etc, do not need dmix to mix multiple streams automatically, and hardware accelerated.
But, having said that, you're right, there are some cards that need software stream multiplexing. And in that case, check here. I've used this guide to set up dmix on a really old card I had laying around. The guide is very easy to follow, and took me maybe 5 to 10 minutes including the time it took me to google for the appropriate info, and play a couple songs (simultaneously) afterwards to test it out.
One thing I realize though... if a soundcard is so crappy as to not support hardware mixing, this is generally a good indication that its sound quality may be... less than desirable.
Ah, sorry. there is one piece of hardware: my logitech quickcam. The single developer of the phillips driver that supports the quickcam was somewhat rudely 'forced out' of being a kernel contributor with his module, because it had a binary component. He thus stopped development on it.
This item normally works fine in Windows (with drivers from Logitech). However, to counter point.. I've never been able to get my apple wireless keyboard to work in Windows, while it works just fine in linux (though it wasn't the easiest to set up, until I discovered kbluetooth).
But other than those two, everything else HAS 'just worked' with linux. No driver cds. I plugged in a usb->bluetooth adapter, and turned on my mouse.. kbluetooth recognized it and it worked. I changed video cards, and it just worked (though I went from ati->ati.. I guess otherwise I'd have had to follow the instructions and type a command at the command prompt). I installed a firewire card AND a usb 2.0 card, and both worked without any additional drivers. My SB Live works just fine, with no additional drivers. My generic network card: just fine.
I don't know why I'm bothering to write all this.. so many have even better stories, I'm sure. But really.. if the person bought something that's as windows centric as most dells tend to be, I don't blame Linux for not supporting it, I blame Dell for not supporting Linux.
Kopete looks way different from MSN Messenger but does the same job and without the dangerous crap that random idiots broadcast to you through it. The rest of the interface (web browser, email, office suite, games running under KDE) the 15yo just uses and couldn't care less what brand it was. She has said that KMail is easier for her to use than MS Outlook, but I don't think that's part of a pattern or anything.
The 4yo just wants to play the Polly Pockets online games, which she does in FireFox.
My enthusiastic 5.5yo son and fine collection of local nephews (3yo to 10yo) have no trouble either. We have Mac-only users and Wintendo-only users drop in all the time, and they have no problems.
There is no Windows here, only Linux. Sorry, but it's just the truth.
When was the last time you actually used a modern Linux GUI?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
True. There are licencing issues with updating other vendors software, but these could certainly be overcome. Currently many applications (including Fx) rely on internal auto-update systems, but at least Microsoft makes some attempt to update all their software with one service. Take Firefox and Thunderbird: although they're both produced by Mozilla, they each have an independent update system which only runs when the application is running. Linux could demonstrate an update service that allows every software group to release patches and updates over the same system, but it'd be difficult to implement in an environment where users can compile the software themselves, and put it in nonstandard locations. In those eventualities, the system would simply have to notify the user to go and download updates.
I'll take this as mockery of Slackware. It was chosen it because it was the distro that was bundled with the least irrelevant shit and was the most suitable for my needs. Damn Small Linux was another option, but that's a little too slimline
In the business world, truth is in a very short supply and it's good to see a business man who won't resort to lying, deceit, and FUD to try and boost his company's sales.
Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but Otellini is a big fat liar just like all the rest. Your basing this glowing opinion of him on one quote, which isn't even conclusive. He just said "Maybe some people should buy Apple."
Also, you're a fool to think it hurts Intel's business. Intel makes most of it's money selling to OEMs in huge quantities. Quarter-to-quarter fluctuations are larger than any potential dent Apple could make in the PC market in the short term. By the time you buy that Dell, Intel has already made it's profit -- they don't care if it sits on the shelf. That's Dell's problem.
is they are a pita to update.
there is no security archive for them and upgrading everything from the debian testing and unstable upstream respositries on an install as big as knoppix is a pain in the arse.
i guess you could upgrade individual packages for security issues from the main debian testing/unstable archives but this would still be quite a bit of work keeping track of security issues.
imo best bet right now is to do a clean install of sarge edit the sources.list so it stays on sarge when sarge goes stable and set up a script for automatic security updates.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
The four different desktop machines (well, 3 dt and one laptop) in this household all run Mandrake Linux. Sound worked on all of them OOTB. Only this desktop has a special sound card (Yamaha 744), the rest are Intel or PC'97. Everything shares sound nicely through artsd.
Occasionally the Flash plugin goes wild, but VeryNice fixes that automagically after a few minutes (and later Konquerors also offer to fix it for you on the spot if set to do so).
OTOH my book-keeper plugged a Win2k-based laptop into his LAN yesterday, and after much farting around (nothing as neat as MCC here) finally managed to get the internal firewalling shut down, and Norton's internet security thing, and the laptop still won't read the shares on the one (98SE) machine he wants it to, and nor will any of the other machines (98SE, 95, XP) read the laptop - but Samba reads it just fine, both the old version on the gateway and the new version on his LOB server. None of the other machines have any problems with each other (including Samba, both ways). Yes, the workgroup, authentication etc are all correct and consistent. Yes, he did reboot them all. The laptop is happy to talk to the chosen machine using WinSCP and the CygWin SSH server.
That's my definition of "difficult to understand". And so much of Windows is like that. Case in point: all of the network settings for Win2k are in the network control panel - except for the machine identity, which is part of the properties on My [Bill's] Computer.
People only think it's normal because they're used to it. Linux is not difficult, just different.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
From the article:
[Bill Gates] noted that many of today's attacks succeed not for technical reasons, but through social engineering: Users are tricked into downloading code that can damage their computer or breach its security.
I think this is reasonable, with Windows XP + SP2. IE warnings do tend to get annoying, so I prefer Firefox (+extension, e.g. flash block).
Response to standard reply 1:
The server market is not the same as the desktop market, especially as far as spyware and viruses are concerned. It's much more sensible to target dumb users, not server admins. Viruses spread better when a user can help them spread (e-mail clients etc.), and spyware would be pretty pointless on a server.
Response to standard reply 2:
You have to enter a root password to install anything
I can't imagine anything worse than this. If I have to run every install as root, it'll become habitual, and that habit will leave me, as a dumb user, open to some seriously dangerous exploits. "I just downloaded Super Web Toolbar 5.7! Oh for christs sake, it's that root password dialog box again. I'm sick of that. Alright have the damn password. Sometimes I wonder why don't I just run as root all the time." - that is clearly NOT a good strategy.
making a claim that Windows without a browser would be as secure as OSX without a browser is a bit disingenuous
This is exactly why I said that the OS kernels themselves are very secure, and pointed out that it's the Microsoft software running on top of the NT kernel that contains the flaws (i.e. the shell). This isn't an important point anyway.
I'd be very happy to see OS X take over the world. Very happy indeed.
Should I decide to install Apache when I install Linux, where my http root is depends on the distro, not on a program default.
It's not just hardware that "just works" that makes Windows easier to set up and manage on a day-to-day basis than Linux. It's software. It's a simpler directory structure, better file manager, better integration with the desktop manager.
And let's face it, EVERY time I try to switch from Microsoft Office to a "just as good" competitor, I find that the competitor still lacks features I use and which are not stupid newbie things like "Clippy".
In Word Perfect Office (a number of years back) it was an inability to aplhabetically sort lists over a certain size. In current incarnations of OpenOffice.org, it is an inability to find/replace "special" characters like paragraph breaks. These may be minor to the general public, but I use them and Microsoft has them. I use Open Office right now, and I recently missed that ability to find/replace paragraph breaks big time.
Linux is a great desktop environment when you want to roll it out with a limited set of applications and limited privileges to an office environment, and can take the time to tweak and tune and get everything just right in a single install that will be duplicated across hundreds of machines that will be used by people who need e-mail, spreadsheet, word processing, calendar, browser, and that's it.
But for a user like me, I find Linux a curiosity to poke and prod, not a production environment desktop OS by any means.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
Linux would be better. They get educated, participate in an open source community, and, bext of all, IT'S FREE!
Sorry, and OS X users don't get educated and don't participate in an open source community? I'm sure there are many that do, and I'm going to be one of them. However I'll probably stick to OS X because for most of my uses it is far more developed than Linux (I've got about three FC3 servers floating around currently). Just because someone uses OSX doesn't mean that they are not prepared to contribute to OSS.
For the few that do, Mandrake or Ubuntu will do the job just fine for them out of the box.
Your basic premise is silly. In Real Life(tm), someone who knows enough to want to set up any system by themselves is either going to be sensible enough to not stuff things up by idiocy like deleting random system files, or a random turkey who is going to butcher any system that falls under their hands.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Segmentation fault. Ore dumped.
An aneurysm is not a heart problem, FYI. I need to verify I'm not a script to post? WTF. IS there infoon this somewhere?
i forget
For that, I think that Linux can easily meet the needs of basic web browsing, word processing, spreadsheet use, and media playing, which is all that many of computers are used for. If you're a set-in-your-ways Windows power user, need to run specialized apps or view ActiveX-based web pages, or want to play games, then Linux probably won't work for you. Then again, neither will OSX.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
I'm a bit partial to Apple but I couldn't help but interpret this as a dig at Apple Computers (maybe I'm a bit defensive).
It reminded me of that RVB Switch spoof (http://www.roosterteeth.com/archive/). It was almost as if he said "sure buy an Apple but...If you want to fix IT[The Apple] tomorrow, buy something else."
It's OK if it's an iPod (I've had 2 replaced immediately, no questions asked) but if something bad goes wrong with any of your big Apple hardware, chances are, you won't be able to fix it yourself and it will involve a long an expensive stint down at the service centre.
Personally, I think Mr. Otellini won't have any trouble with the Board.
Big story: Two big Wintel people are fed up with M$ shit. Mossberg, a big Wintel fan, got Otellini to whine about his daughter's infested Wintel box that eats all of his weekend time. That Mossberg would even go there means the M$ world is screwed. That Otellini would say anything approaching don't buy a Wintel box means the M$ world is screwed. Those of us outside the M$ world have a tendency to forget how bad it is. Unfortunately, Windoze is so common that it's hard to avoid but so screwed up that the rare use always sucks and what you hear is always bad. Face it, what you are hearing is people who loved M$ who now hate it because it simply blows.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Entertaining.
You assume that popularity is inversely proportional to security
I assume that the more popular an OS is, the more secure it becomes through security fixes. I believe that this is a valid point when considering desktop software. I do not believe that software becomes less secure as popularity increases, that would be moronic. I believe that software is insecure until tested for flaws, and that the greatest test of flaws is massive use and masses of people searching for new exploits to take advantage of. Anyone who says that popularity is inversely proportional to security is crazy. "I just wrote this software! Only two people use it, therefore it is TOTALLY secure compared to the rival product that 45,000 people use!" - there is a problem with this statement that I am sure you can spot.
You assume that part of the problem is the entire problem
I never said it was the entire problem. You assumed that from my post.
You fail to account for different security models.
I'll give you that one.
Not all bugs are security flaws
Not all cars have four wheels.
Privilege separation prevents many problems
Not when I am the sole user of the system and can grant security privileges without full knowledge of the consequences. "I find running as a normal user too prohibitive and I often get prompted for passwords or told I can't do things with MY OWN DAMN COMPUTER! Therefore, I run everything as root. I want full control damn it!" is common, and will become very common when operating systems that allow full privilege separation become suitable for anyone to use.
Different systems are inherently more or less vulnerable to exploits
Obviously. But nobody's perfect. Not even Linux. I'm sure that my Gameboy Advance won't be getting any trojan horse viruses, but then I was pretty damn sure that my Bluetooth mobile phone wouldn't be getting any viruses and hey, what do you know? Along they come. If there's a will, there's generally a way. I admit that some systems are simply better written and better designed than others and this leaves them less susceptible to exploits. I will not concede that any desktop operating system with a web connection can be unquestionably secure.
Not all security flaws are of the same severity
I certainly failed to consider this, because it wasn't at all relevant to what I was posting. I never said that "this is shit because it will have massive security flaws just like the massive security flaws found in IE", I merely stated that there will be flaws.
Running as root is almost always a problem, no matter the system
Operating systems that encourage users to run things as root for day-to-day tasks like installing and uninstalling software are generally improperly designed. If running as root is in any way avoidable, software should be designed to support that. Software should warn if it is being run as root. Educate the user.
Security is by design, not accident
Yes. This does not excuse the fact that the design may be extremely bad. It may also be very good. We'll have to wait and see.
Nice idea, but it's been said before and that doesn't make it any more true.
I'm glad you didn't choose the "moron" option, but I expect that will probably come up after this post.
Haven't tried it on any of my own grandparents yet, but daughters and the like seem happy.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
A more valid point would be, should a person have administrative access (with the superuser password) then even experienced users have made mistakes rendering the system unusable.
/Volumes/$(DRIVE NAME) instead of their home or other folders, and has the password, and knows how to issue a #sudo rmdir /Volumes/Macintosh\ HD/System# instruction in Terminal then they want to ruin the OS X system. Has such an instance ever been documented?
/Library/. Particularly in /Library/Application\ Support. Anyway, most people will find a lot of files masked in Finder by a period prefix (.DS_STORE and so on, but hardly anything that important in this case) so Move to Trash isn't an option. And rebooting OS X tends, for me, to retrieve random files from the Trash inexplicably.
Most US and European users would think they could do without Japanese and Korean fonts for example. I'm not even sure that you need a password to remove them with Font Book. However, to do that OS X will, on next boot, cease to function - or so I read on an OS X support site before.
However, if a person has navigated to
I presume similar system problems could be achieved by deleting important files in
Perhaps a brian problem?
Aren't aneurysms typically in the brain. I guess there are are aortic aneurysms too.
Ah, nevermind.
Or they could make an OS that isn't, you know, horribly insecure.
right.
Yes, you were being sarcastic - but this is SlashDot. You need either to add the <sarcasm> tags or be as subtle as a haddock across the chops.
Hmm, amazing what a fairly innocent search will turn up.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
So, the *only* reason it "gets" viruses is because it's popular? With respect sir, you're simply out of touch with reality.
OK, I'll retract that and say that the major reason that viruses and spyware target Windows is that there is little point in targeting anything else. Viruses are designed to spread, Spyware is designed to collect user information. To meet these goals as fully as possible (spread as fast as possible, collect as much user information as possible), viruses and spyware are naturally targeted at the operating system with the widest use. Sure, some viruses are written simply because the author bares a grudge against some sort of OS, or wants to be the first to target a particular OS, but in general my point stands. If one in one hundred users of a particular OS wants to write a virus for that OS, it's pretty safe to say that as the number of users increases so does the number of people inclined to write viruses. I admit I'm making unfounded and relatively simplistic assumptions here. I'd like to believe that popularity does play some part in the amount of attempts to exploit that popularity to spread a virus or collect as much data as possible, or show as many ads to as many people as possible. I cannot really see much problem with that. Care to explain it?
Well, O'Reilly articles to the contrary, Linux is still by far the better OS for developers. Why? Because it takes a lifetime of adding and installing software on OS X to get it anywhere what comes with a full default installation of Fedora. I just spent days getting PHP4, PHP5 and mod_perl running with MySQL 4.0 and 4.1 on OS X Tiger with proxied Apache instances. On OS X PHP several necessary libraries wouldn't compile and even then PHP4 wouldn't recognise them - libexpat for example. So many missing libraries even after Developer Tools was installed. With a kitchen sink Fedora install it takes less than an hour and I have all the developer tools and libraries I'm going to need.
Err thanks. I guess. I think some of my comments were taken rather too literally but I'm used to Slashdot readers reading between the lines and finding stuff that totally goes against what I was trying to say. A lot of them are extremely faithful to their OS and will jump on their high-horse to defend it, even if I'm not really criticising it. I see operating systems and software as tools, not as political parties.
I'd have thought that, as CEO of Intel, Mr. Otellini would have the insight to delegate the boring task of spyware removal to one of his subordinates. I'd also have thought that, on a CEO's salary, he could well afford to pay some struggling IT undergrad to do it for him.
My guess is that every hour per week Mr. Otellini spends on his daughter's computer is one less hour he has to spend playing with her.
Buying a Mac(or something else, as the quote alludes) isn't the answer. He needs to buy his daughter a book or some toys so she's got something to do while he enjoys pottering around with his spyware removal tools.
The comment reads:
An hour each week?
First, if you read the article, he is hardly recommending Apple. Second,
"He spends an hour a weekend removing spy ware from his daughter's computer."
Wow, is he the last person to have heard of 'Search and Destroy' or even MS's new anti-spy ware programs? Is it really a good sign that his daughter can't keep the computer clean? If she is old enough to browse the sites that have a lot of spy ware on them (an hours worth of work every week), she should be old enough to do something about it. If not, they should have some parental controls (won't fix it, but will help). Firefox anyone?
Anonymous ROT13 karma whor
The translation was obtained here, and the details on the ridiculous encryption method is available from the Wiki. It's a Caesar Cipher, and about as difficult to break as reading "HAL" as "IBM" in Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey.
If you wrote the first OS X virus, nobody would believe you because nobody would have heard about it. There's still room for you to write the most crazy, virulent, destructive Windows virus in history. There's being the first, and then there's being the best. I think most virus authors would go for being the best. It's all a competition.
I didn't say that I got Mac OS X to play sound on a Dell. I said that Linux couldn't play sound on a Dell. Mac OS X works just fine on my three PowerBooks, 2 iMacs, and iBook. Windows networking works on my Macs right out of the box. I'll have to spend time to figure out how to make Linux work.
And that's the problem with Linux. It's like a TR7 that a friend used to have; it's a great car if you want to spend more time working on it than driving it. He would drive from New Jersery to Virginia to see his girlfriend, and then spend all weekend working on his car so that he could get back home.
...RPMdrake to me.
BTW, that screenshot is eleven generations old now. The new ones are even better, but I wanted to make the point that Linux has had this facility since more than a year before OS X was even released.
If you want a piece of software which has not been diskimaged, you need to go through exactly the same rigmarole you posit for Linux, but without URPMI or apt-get or YAST or yum or whatever to help you find dependencies.
Unless you're after something from Fink - a third-party effort which exists because...? Anyone...? [distant chorus: Apple's packaging is deficient]
Same story for Wintendo, of course, only there ain't no WinFink (although CygWin is close) and it don't come with no useful build system at all 'coz Microsoft are really only interested in having dependants, not partners.
The implication behind the diskimage install is that either the Apple apps have no dependencies (interesting concept), or everything gets shipped statically linked. Do your DMGs automatically upgrade with the rest of your system?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Ambassador d'Ellen then added: "It went like beep beep beep."
...and lots of patience. Compare that with clicking on "delete" in RPMdrake or the like.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...you get a new copy of each installed with every set of MS-Windows updates.
I'm sure the originator of that little stroke of genius will be found staked across an anthill within hours of his name getting leaked.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Did you try just plugging it in and using iPhoto? Both of my cameras (Canon and Fuji) work without any drivers. My Sony DV camera works with out any drivers either, just plug into the Firewire port.
I do find it amazing that he didn't say "no, no, no... WinTel is the _only_ way to go". However, I would hardly call what he said as being an recommendation for Apple, Linux, Solaris or any other non MS Windows product. He basically is saying, "hey, if you don't want to deal with spyware, adware and viruses, your going to have to look at something other than MS Windows". I don't think that is telling us anything new. The whole freakin world knows that, yet the majority of the masses stick with the MS Crap(tm). Maybe Jane and Joe Six-Pack like spyware, adware and viruses?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
I've seen one guy on the freeway flip from bored-silly/screensaver-mode to laughing at it so hard that he drove over the cateyes on the lane markers several times. Frustrated admin, I guess.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It sounds like your sound card is a piece of shit. As much as I hate, hate, hate Creative Labs, their SB Lives have good hardware mixing capabilities that the Linux drivers can use out of the box.
..."Bill Gates Wrong Again" is hardly newsworthy. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
1) hire cool web search programmers to infect the OSX
I see this as being the most likely thing. I'm not saying Microsoft will hire them, but malware will come to OSX within the next few years.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Disclaimer: I'm a happy user of Slackware for years.
Still, I'm going to say I don't expect Linux to take over the Desktop anytime soon. The problem? Choice. Choice is good, but excess of anything is bad - even choice.
If the only distribution were MEPIS, I agree Linux is a viable option - even with hundreds of desktop-oriented distributions, it might still be possible if everyone and his dog is not reinventing the wheel by writing their "minimalist" editor and all distributions choosing a different default.
Linux is a nightmare to support. On Windows, you're almost 100% sure your user will have a clean, easy-to-work-with editor, aka Notepad. On Linux, you'll have to ask - open a text editor...do you have Gvim? Nope? How about Nedit? Nope? Xemacs? Nope? How about xedit - yeah, that's it...with its archic and ugly interface. You get the idea. Too many choices WITHOUT A DEFAULT is a problem.
Also, higher assumptions are difficult to make when you develop software (apart from POSIX, you almost cannot assume anything) - which version of libc do you use? On Windows it does not matter - for example, msvcrt.dll just seems to be better at being backwards compatible than glibc - just rename the library and it'll most likely work. With glibc, it'll most likely complain - I know it is in theory a better safeguard - but I don't want to care if all I want to do is to run a browser.
Linux will be viable for the Desktop on the day all distributions agree on a set of defaults for GUI apps, which unfortunately LSB does not cover.
And for some reason I don't think that day is coming soon.
Good to know. Home the mods catch your post... I've got adblock doing pretty good things for me now - i just didn't realize the popups came from flash.
That blows.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
This is inevitably where morons who don't actually know anything start to trash the distro you used or the laptop you bought. Really, there's always a good chance, no matter what distro or PC manufacturer, that you'd going to end up wrestling with hardware. Its an unfortunate reality.
:)
On the other hand, you can't really say that OSX is better because of this, because you haven't tried putting OSX on that dell laptop either. See how well it "just works".
If you buy a machine with an OS on it, chances are good everything will play nice. A mac with OSX on it... good. A PC with XP on it... good. A PC with linux on it... just as good. Unfortunatly when you start mixing and matching, you'll probably have to be ready to fix stuff.
...then it starts to run out the sides. Yes, even if you do tape over that silly hole. I'm using the model 52X coffee holder, if that matters.
The coffee holder doesn't keep it warm, either, and the fan-forcing on the only really warm bit blows it around too much and makes icky stains on the inside of my flouro-illuminated case window. If I turn the machine on its side, maybe I can use the second-warmest bit that my screen plugs into?
Sorry, maybe I should have started with a C|N>K warning?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I just replaced my old Audigy (which has hardware mixing) with a new 'pro-sumer' style envy24-based M-audio Audiophile 2496.
Superior in most respacts, but doesn't support hardware mixing. (I'll probably put the audigy back in and use both of them simulaniously.. Alsa rocks)
Most cheaper cards don't support it either. Most onboard cards.. which is what most people end up using.
The soundblaster/audigy line of cards do make very good linux cards and are cheap.
I'm running as normal user on XP without administrative privledges and all seems to be fine.
I use "Run As" whenever I need to install something which is a little annoying, but no more than on my Linux box when I want to install something as root.
I haven't had any viruses either,
More impressive to me though is that my mom (who runs OS X) has ALSO not had any viruses or trojans. Not just us computer experts. *shrug* Go figure!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
People who use this market share theory are engaging in logical falicy.
The fact that Windows is attacked (and exploited) does not mean that it is as secure as Linux or Mac because they are not attacked. What it does prove is that Windows is insecure. It says nothing about Linux or Mac security and people who speculate about Linux or Mac exploits if these systems had a higher market share are just that, speculating. The Windows exploits do prove that Windows is insecure however.
As you note, cell phones have viruses so it's not like virus writers are'nt interested in trying new things. Your other insights are dead on as well.
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
Is selling a computer unfit for use except by the trained.
Are you honestly suggesting that people have a licence in computer configuration before being allowed to buy a computer? Because that's what it means when you say it's inexcusable to not own a properly configured computer. That is the only correction when "further configuration" is the answer to security issues.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Linspire and Xandros, for example, are easier to use and install Linux distros. I hear that Unbunto Linux is easy to use as well as free to download.
OS/2 was reborn as eCS, I hear that the 32 bit Windows malware don't even run in it.
BeOS and ZetaOS, still available, and there does not seem to be any malware written for it.
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Darwin X86, also alternatives. Yet suffer from the complexity that some Linux distros have.
AmigaOS, I think there was a X86 port at one time. The AmigaOne is still sold, IIRC.
Solaris, I heard there was an open source version of it due out soon.
JavaOS, whatever happened to this one? A complete Java based OS.
Q*NX, an easy to use Unix.
Thin Clients, or old PCs running VNC, that go to a server that has limited access rights for the users so malware won't be installed in the first place. It is constantly monitored, and any threats removed.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Oooh, Babylon-X.4 was supposed to have enabled a change of tide in the Adwars a thousand years ago, right?
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
Apple will not be using Intel chips as processor chips anytime in the near future. The only people who would even consider that plausible are people who don't yet own a Mac, and therefore aren't faced with the problem of not only buying a new computer, but also re-purchasing every software title they own if they actually want it to work on the new machine.
As someone who uses his Mac for video and animation production, that would be a hefty price tag indeed. Apple's not interested in pissing off its current user base, so the answer should be pretty obvious. Intel chips, yes. Intel processors, no.
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
The thing morons like this Intel guy don't realise is that Windows only gets viruses and spyware because virus and spyware writers get the most reach by targeting the OS that runs on 90% of desktop computers.
Until about 1997 there was a pretty even playing field for viruses and malware. Yes, you got them more on Windows, but pretty much the only real propogation mechanisms were social engineering attacks in email and dropping infected files on LAN shares. If you didn't run attachments you were pretty safe, no matter what the platform, and there were Mac viruses, even though this was at the nadir of Apple's popularity, there were even Amiga viruses and Amiga was never more than a tiny fraction of the market.
There was this joke going around about this thing called the "good times" virus. Everyone knew it was a joke, because it was a virus you could get JUST BY OPENING THE MAIL. That was obviously impossible, because nobody would be stupid enough to use a mail viewer that could run local scripts. I mean, people were even moving away from Word to this new program "Word Viewer" vecause of macro viruses in attachments (and, remember, you don't run attachments).
Then Microsoft made Good Times real. And the number of viruses went through the roof. And what's more amazing, not only didn't Microsoft fix the problem, they fought the Justice Department over fixing the problem (the DoJ didn't think of it that way, but what they wanted Microsoft to do would have removed all variations of the 'active scripting' and 'cross zone attacks' for good).
Microsoft still hasn't fixed the underlying problem. They have made it harder to exploit, but I still get spam-like mail that tries to run ActiveX controls, and occasionally someone comes to me and says "uh, Peter, it asked me if I wanted to run a control and I said 'yes' and I have a virus". Or, '... and I said 'yes' AGAIN'. Yes, people have repeatedly said "yes" to these prompts.
Never used to happen over and over again when they had to download files to open them. And it's really only Microsoft that seems to think letting people install browser plugins with no more than an "OK" is "OK"... though Apple *has* started down this path, they at least let you unconditionally turn it off for good by disabling "open safe files after download" in your preferences. You can't DO that in IE, not everywhere you really need to, not without breaking applications.
My power book runs crazy slow with OSX and it's not too old.
On a far lower spec Compaq laptop Linux runs far better (albiet with a GUI that could justifyably be called hard to use). Maybe our idea of "Just Working" is different, but opening an email app and a web-browser should not cause massive slow down, and I would say any machine that runs OSX with only 128MB of ram is a far cry from just working. I deffinatly spend more time waiting for swap then I spent entering in a few wizards during a Linux install (even thought they were scary text based diolog boxes).
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Try putting OSX on your dell, oh yeah you can't because Apple supports less than 1% of the possible hardware combinations that any PC does.
Comparing Apples hardware support against Linux on the PC is like comparing a PS2 to Apple, my PS2 Has NEVER crashed even once, so why does OSX?
I wonder how Apple would fair if they did try and wrangle the PC monster? probably the same as Windows and Linux I imagine. In fact I propose their hardware support would be *worse* than Windows and Linux. Microsoft is dominant so manufacturers build for Windows, Linux has tens of thousands of individuals working on making the thousands of various pieces of hardware work, what would Apple do? They don't have the developers to write drivers for every crazy proprietry piece of hardware out there and they don't have the market for manufactures to do it for them.
I would say that if OSX ever did move out of it's little hardware world its hardware support and by extension stability would be no better than Linux.
I'm just thinking to myself here... Maybe Apple computers are so secure because they are a minority (compared to Windows). If someone is going create malware/adware/etc, they aren't going to program for an operating system where their programs are rarely going to encounter. If OS X was in 4 out of 5 homes, I think people would start hacking it to bits and it'd be flooded with malware/viruses/hackers or whatever. Anyway, that's just what I think. =)
Good thing I bought an AMD!
People who suggest buying a whole new computer instead of just replacing the windows operating system are at best, funny.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
He did recommend Apple, what else would you "buy". Linux? It's free. So unless he meant Atari, I guess it must have been Apple. Or are you suggesting it was Solaris?
And in my spare time I prove conspiracy theories by cutting out the funnies and combining them in novel ways. (look what casper's doing with that little girl!)
I think, therefore I am...I think.
This supports my theory that the biggest threat to Linux is not Windows, but OS X: If you like Unix, you're probably not going to switch to Windows, but you very well might switch to Apple.
Again: It would be nice for Slashdot to have a "rejected" section so people could see what wasn't chosen. I realize that would put some pressure on the editors, but sometimes I wonder if that would really be a bad thing.
Has anyone considered how many people Microsoft keeps employed by making shitty software?
How many slashdotters would be out of a job if tomorrow every windows platform was 100% secured?
Consider your local pc repair shop. They get plenty of business because of microsoft. They also seel pcs with microsoft on it. An inherently secure OS destroys a secondary economy. One which M$ relies on.
So like, quit bitching about removing spyware, and do what I do. Charge for it.
Well, I haven't ever tried a Dell, but I still find my Mandriva 2005 installation to work out of the box with my integrated soundcards, allowing for hardware (or software, don't know nor care) mixing. I didn't have to configure jack shit.
Complaining about an "old" distribution when newer ones with better hardware detection are out leads you to the obvious answer.
Oh, if you do want Fedora, I suggest checking out FC 4 as soon as it comes out, which should be shortly.
"I think it would be a good idea!"
Gandhi, about Internet Security
I pay someone else to do that to my car.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Simpler directory structure? Set up Konqueror to show only the Home folder, and then make subdirectories for Pictures, Films, Music, whatever.
Your comment about OO.o is so trivial and petty that I won't even bother to address it, suffice to say that there are doubtless dozens of little things that OO.o can do that Word cannot. If it's that urgent, file a bug report - it has a damn sight better chance of getting incorporating into OO.o than into Word.
Also, thus whole "tweak and tune" to get things like an Office Environment, Web Browser, e-mail, calendar etc - most Linux installs have these set-up by default.
downloading spyware and adware all the time. i personally don't know how old this kid is, but maybe he shouldn't be giving her that much permission or access rights. my sister used to have a computer filled with spyware/adware, almost rendering it unusable. she begged me to fix it and i made her promise me to never use internet explorer again (unless a site she needed didnt work in firefox) and to not install random crap. she promised me and since then, she has not gotten a single spyware or adware on her computer. you can blame windows for being insecure, but i think most of the blame goes on the user and those malware programmers. certainly, the os could've taken extra steps to protect the user, but with education on software usage and virus/malware avoidance, i can proudly say, my father's computer, my brother's computer, my sister's computer, all of my computers, and most of my inner circle of friends' computers are free of such bugs.
HD Trailers
So how is a non-geek user supposed to know which of the various flavors of Linux to get. Which one will work with no more computer smarts needed than to re-install Windows for the ump-teenth time? Will the hapless user get all their hardware peripherals, such as printers, cameras and MP3 player to work without knowing how to edit a config file somewhere?
All theory is gray
..I would say any machine that runs OSX with only 128MB of ram is a far cry from just working...
When was the last time that Apple sold a computer with only 128MB of RAM? Back in OS9 days? Are you so poor that you can't afford to put a 256MB RAM chip into your PowerBook?
All theory is gray
This is America, huh?
Looks like the internet to me...
:-)
So you've not heard nothing but complaints abouto Fedora Core 2, I liked it. It was stable and happy on my system and it all worked from the install (ATi Rage 128 Pro card and Turtle Beach Santa Cruz with an Athlon Thunderbird 1200). FC3 is better, and I expect FC4 to improve on that again.
...to remove them with Font Book...
Actually, you don't REMOVE them, but just disable them. They are still there, but no longer show up in your programs. I have indeed disabled a lot of fonts this way and have never had any trouble. The system runs a bit faster now.
All theory is gray
In theory you're right on the nail. You should not need to give kids that level of access rights. But, as we know by now, some games (the Sims being one commonly brought up) simply choke if not run under administrator rights.
If anything this is the worst type of software to need admin rights, as it's often the kids who play the games. So you're requiring kids either running with admin rights, routinely knowing how to run programs with those rights or routinely logging into the parent's account to play games. This is not a good thing.
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
At work we find the problem is Internet Explorer.
Users can still us Windows, we just make sure the default browser is Firefox, make IE difficult to find (remove from Desktop etc) and we don't habve the issues again.
You don't have to replace the entire hardware, just the browser with the silly idea of automatigically installing stuff.
spending money on fighting malware, cleaning it up or making it illegal won't ever work. ever.
the only thing wich works is spending money on software quality, not from look & feel or user interface or features point of view, but from software design & security view. this is so simple that not much people realise this. imagine: if it is unable to install malware, virus or adware because software is foolproof, and secure by design (!), there would be no malware at all. you don't need laws making it illegal or any antivirus software.
certainly, programmers aren't gods and sometimes an error or buffer overflow or something other makes its way into code. if business policy is to fix it next-business-day or even asap or.., it can be easy because good software can have a typo at most, forgot endless[len] = 0, or... but these can be solved by recompiling & patching. design flaws cannot be fixed fast or completely. windows itself _is_ full of design flaws, what about apps? this is not a flame, if you coded for windows, you know.
if security holes are regulary closed by vendors in reasonable terms, all those who care are fine. those who don't? in my world, there are none. we all use apt-get update && apt-get -y upgrade in daily crontab. this is possible on windows as well - but why didn't ms invested in such system? because development of hidden system features or even rewriting some base parts of code is hard to sell. they need nice looking apps. feature-rich. like html email. what will be next?
if malware or viruses have no easy way of spreading because software is secure, and regulary updated, there would be no malware. and be sure there are secure software systems: imagine life support machines in hospitals. or others. why they are not used on desktop? because tehre are used systems like qnx or plan9 or tens others, which are too difficult for the joe average. but ms programers aren't joe average... are they? so why they don't design & code correctly then?
ms had/has effective marketing people, they sell lighter to lucifer. they managed to get 90%+ uniform environment. we all know that uniform environment is relatively stable and very good in self-developing and productivity. but is vulnerable. ability to damage one node of uniform environment is ability to destroy the 90%+. this is beautifule environment for malware. imagine boris veryclever and his ability destroy 90% of the world.. but if ms only had 20% and remaining computers were spread between 5-10 more _incompatible_ vendors, boris would be able to destroy only 20% or less. if he would be willing to start code for the 20% at all... who cares of 20%...
My personal feeling is that they are convinced that using a computer is supposed to be painful. They seem to miss the viruses and spyware,
Let them ask a Geek. They are all over the world and the internet, ready to offer advice.
Which one will work with no more computer smarts needed than to re-install Windows for the ump-teenth time?
Most of the popular ones, or none depending on your needs/hardware/desires. Just like any other OS.
Will the hapless user get all their hardware peripherals, such as printers, cameras and MP3 player to work without knowing how to edit a config file somewhere?
Maybe depending on their hardware. All of my stuff works. Plug and play. I help as a moderator on the Ubuntu forum so I know that people has stuff that doesn't work. But I've also experianced hardware that refused to work in XP as well (not same hardware, in fact one thing (a printer) works in Linux for me when it wouldn't in Windows because of bad drivers.)
If it works, the user gets a great, free OS with tons of free software. If it doesn't work well enough Windows gets reinstalled. Life is tough sometimes.
Open Source Sushi
A guy at level of being Intel CEO does NOT allow such a leak.
:)
Intel and Apple are on something but no, Apple won't leave powerPC platform or we leave Apple
If they are fishing for community response, let me say my part. Nobody on Earth can sell me a LCD tablet PC while http://www.e-ink.com/ is well and alive, selling stuff already in Japan.
with ununified package delivery systems, and a myriad of other nightmarish necessities in linux (which, in my opinion are oly still around cuz being able to deal with them makes linux geeks feel special), OSX is the only way to go. sure, i'd put linux on my pc (and have several times), but the damned OS PUNISHES you for trying to install a driver, a program, or GOD FORBID, to uninstall anything. OSX has all of this under control. that is what makes it better than any linux distro right now.
if these distros became easier to use (why hasn't it been done yet???), then there would be no more discussions of windows vs. linux. the choice would be clear.
it comes down to this: if i have to run a couple 3-rd party apps to keep the ad/spyware away and viruses at bay, then i'd rather do that than have to be banished to command line hell to do anything from install a program, change a teeny little setting, or to run updates on my apps. f*ck linux and the horse it rode in on. pwer and ability aren't the only things that make an os great. without great usability (like osx), it's just garbage that gets in people's way.
This is configured automatically in Fedora Core 4 (or will be when it's out in a month or so). It's very likely that other distributions will follow suit soon afterwards.
Yes Linux has problems. Any serious Linux user or developer will admit that. But these days they're being bopped on the head with quite some speed.
I also question the logic behind MacOS X being a "fix" for security. Apples security track record is atrocious - more than once they've shipped remote code execution exploits through Safari, there have been remote root holes left unpatched for months etc etc. I mean, what makes anybody think that the Macs relative "security" is anything but a side-effect of their obscurity?
"It is being sold to Chinese consumers -- a market Mr. Otellini noted includes 60 million urban households that have the money and desire to buy a PC, but haven't."
.025 a day, and then take that money back by selling them a product, by force if neccesary, they don't really want.
Capitalism Kap-i-tal-ism (n): Create a labor force that works for
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Many readers may be enlightened by reading David Pogue's New York Times Columns (free on the internet here). David debunked the security by obscurity argument by showing the the facts. Everyone in the World could have Macs and still clicking on an unknown attachment would still NOT contaminate your Mac or spread a virus to anyone for 3 reason David cites. Unlike Windows,
.exe tht clicked could cause damage)
1. OSX does NOT allow you to spoof file types (.doc is really
2. OSX does NOT install a foreign file without 1st warning you that the file is foreign (suspect) and asking, do you really want to install this file.
3. Even if you (or your grandparent) bungle through 1 an 2, and you somehow agree to intall the foreign (suspect) file, the clincher is to install the foreign file, you will be asked and required to enter the system password. There are not enought fools in the world that would do this to possibly damage their computer.
1-3 above is why Macs are, and will always be, virus free (out of the box - yes OSX comes installed on new Mac systems) and why viruses don't have a "market" to spread on Macs. This is NOT a security by Obscurity issue. There was a $25,000 prize if anyone could produce a virus to penetrate OSX, and no one has yet. Now you can see why. By the way, I'm so confident about the security of mt Macs, I'm willing to put up another $25,000. I haven't seen any windows users so confident about the security. They just blindly continue installing service paks and security patches (as you do). and will continue to do so for years til Longhorn arrives. What a waste of time of talented individualy around the world.
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
By sticking to open source software and Firefox, it's pretty easy avoid spyware. My anti-spyware software is pretty bored since I quit using IE.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
By the time you buy that Dell, Intel has already made it's profit -- they don't care if it sits on the shelf. That's Dell's problem.
Actually, it very quickly would become Intel's problem... If more and more people start buying something else then these Dells will start just sitting on the shelf and if enough of them do then the OEMs are going to order fewer of them. If they can't sell the ones they have, why would they buy more?
That said, I do agree that this isn't going to hurt Intel's sales one little bit. Apple still has very little market share although they are showing quite a bit of promise for the future.
My adaware checks are irrelevent since I switched to firefox. I'm still convinced that it is mostly a question of volume... It takes time to develop a malware, easy math : should I spend time to develop my evil software for 74% of the ie/win32/x86 or the 11% ff/win32/x86, the 4.5% mac/ppc or the 0.6% linux/x86 ? (stats of gootz.net) This fact is not relevent to say if linux & mac are more secure but less targets.
According to the Wayback Machine, the iBook came with 128MB as recently as September 2003 (shipping with OS X 10.2). The eMac came with 128MB as recently as April 2004 (shipping with OS X 10.3).
I agree with you 100%. On a very similar note, an even bigger trick Microsoft managed to pull was to convince users that computers being crash-happy, quirky, and otherwise prone to non-deterministic failures was normal.
In fact, it has become quite socially acceptable for people to talk about how their computer is "broken," "slow," or otherwise "hates them." In reality, the computer is usually just perfectly fine and running well. The problem is some Microsoft software is either flaky, or so gummed up with 3rd party software that it becomes slow and/or flaky. The most annoying thing of all is that this is a natural side-effect of just actively using the darn machine for a while without any wipe-and-reinstall processes.
I'm sorry, but computer OSes should not be prone to getting "full of cruft" from active use, and should not get "slower and quirkier over time" from any reason other than particular newer software getting more bloated/slower.
And no, it's not that Linux/MacOSX/etc. being "stable" is anything special to write home about. Pretty much every other OS I've used is stable by default. It's Windows being "unstable" that's the unique thing.
Before anyone tries to say that "newer versions don't crash all over the place anymore," please keep in mind that the issue I'm discussing isn't OS stability, but rather how MS has convinced the users that OS instability is the norm, and stability is some new thing to be cherished, if they're really good.
Actually it is commonly beleived that the English language changed since 1776 and the US didn't.
That is not to say they have not bastardised it in other ways though!
I have more than one application mixing multiple program's sound outputs and I've never heard of dmix before or even have it installed. Something tells me your argument is a little deceptive.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
.. Apple users deserts Macs with Intel processors in it? Seems lose-lose situation to me.
Here's the problem. I can walk into Comp USA and get a pre-installed Doze box. I can walk to the other end of the store and get a pre-installed Mac. But where are the pre-installed Linux machines? *crickets chirping* Once Linux is set up, it's not really any harder than Doze, except for a learning curve and the specialized uses you mention, but setting it up can be a problem. Nobody HAS to set up Doze or OSX.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I completely agree that Max OS X can be secure,
but it does take some initial effort -- effort that
the Apple retailer may not be willing to make.
My parents found that their 3rd MS WebTV was hosed
within 5 years. They have already experienced
the hidden MSFT tax before -- that they would have
to buy not only a new console but also a new keyboard &
mouse and compatible inkjet printer, they asked
for my advice.
Some of our relatives have Wintel computers, which
start out being cheap until you add in the anti-virus
software, the anti-spyware software, and the firewall
software required before going on-line, not to
mention the time needed each week for OS and
virus/spyware signature updates nor the time
spent cleaning crud off the computer that got
through anyway.
After describing the sort of Apple computer they
might need, I snail-mailed them a list of items
that the retailer needed to do before the sale.
Details like having a separate administrator and
user account on the computer, and having the latest
OS X security patches installed were included.
Instead, the Apple Store sold them a computer
that was returned and still had the previous
owner's files and applications installed, refused
to set up a separate administrator account, and
convinced them to purchase 3rd party anti-virus,
anti-spyware, and firewall software.
Apparently, either the store sales staff were a
bunch of greedy asshats, or else improperly
(Apple) trained ex-Wintel clowns, or both.
No matter whose hardware platform or OS is the
starting point for a computer newbie getting
on the internet, one cannot presume inherent
security out-of-the-box. Proper configuration
is always an issue -- the Mac OS X platform just
makes the security process easier, initially and
subsequently.
Apparently, either the store sales staff were a
bunch of greedy asshats, or else improperly
(Apple) trained ex-Wintel clowns, or both.
if you bought it at CompUSA, it's because they're greedy asshats. sales commissions (and really poor item price marking) have made that store very customer unfriendly
Interesting...
My old PB Wallstreet came with 256MB and it was slow. When I added another 256MB to that, it made a big difference. I don't use it any longer though it actually still works, because its lid will no longer stay open without being propped up by a book or something and its battery is long dead. More RAM will generally speed up most any computer.
All theory is gray
My sister managed to catch her computer on fire.
It seems that when she was moving back to college after winter break, she threw the tower in the back of the van laying on its side... Problem is, it was one of those Slot A motherboards, with the CPU mounted vertically. After the 4 hours of jostling, the chip worked its way loose, but not ALL the way loose....
What would happen is, she would use the computer, and after about 40 minutes, something would heat up, expand a bit, and one of the pins on the CPU daughterboard would lose connection to the motherboard, and the machine would reset. Thinking this was just normal Windows weirdness, I tell her run virus check, update the video drivers, yada yada... (its not the first time she had windows eaten by a virus)
Well, one day it just gives up the ghost, lets out a puff of blue smoke, and the whole machine shuts down... fortunately, the hard drive wasn't damaged & she got her reports, but the chip, ram and motherboard had to be tossed...
Now she buys her computers with a replacement policy.
I once installed a distro of Mandrake which totalled my cd rom so I would say linux does have problems with hardware.
Before you start saying Apple has control over the hardware you should check out how much kit just plug and plays (and not in the windows plug and pray sense) on Macs, the Apple developers have spent a long time making all sort of dievices just work.
Imagine Apple going after the Linux developers with an x86 Macintosh. Would be hilarious if the deathblow to Linux came not from Microsoft but from Apple. Realistic or not, it's certainly amusing to consider.
You have tried to support your argument with faulty reasoning! Go directly to jail; do not pass Go, do not collect $200!
This a quick and dirty way to improve the Windows experience for a civilian. This is especially useful when someone is infected but you don't have time or the energy to do a full cleanup.
Most spyware (popups, toolbars etc) are implemented as something called BHOs or Browser Helper Objects that function as plugins to IE. When the user performs an action like going to a certain site, the BHO intercepts it and does its nefarious work, e.g reporting your action back to mothership, giving the user a popup etc.
Therefore all you have to do is disable BHO functionality in Internet Explorer to deactivate the spyware and give the user some relief.
In IE go to Tools=>Options=>Advanced and deselect
"Enable third-party browser extensions". If the computer is Win XP SP2 then also go to Tools->Manage Add-ons and disable all the suspicious objects.
As a side-note when is someone going to go after the heads of the spyware hydra? I'm talking about the "marketing" companies like FindWhat.com who fund the spyware makers and rake in the money ($169 million last year)?
I can't really agree with you, though. The way to do things are documented, but they aren't automatic. Automatic stuff has been in the works for ages, and I'd say that a Suse install mostly works.
Your analogy of Linux to a TR7 is flawed. Once you get Linux up and running, seldomly will you have to do anything to keep it up and running. It will not crash on you, unless you have an actual hardware problem. You don't have the problems with random worms shutting it down, and it doesn't slowly decay until it needs a reboot.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
"3. Download and make them use spyware"
My own humble opinion? Skip this step.
Yup. Fedora Core has always been extremely friendly to me, including out-of-the-box support for everything except hardware accelerated video (guess why). The only hardware-related problem I had were random crashes - due to the system HDD being irreparably damaged.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
True. The majority of the Linux crowd will gladly help other people install/configure/troubleshoot Linux. After all, it helps the crowd by making it bigger (if the new user happens to like Linux), it helps the user by showing him how life outside of Windowsland is and it helps making Linux more widely known.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
The way to do things are documented...
I'm sure they are. I can either spend my time hunting for the documentation, or getting work done.
Once you get Linux up and running...
I've been using and programming computers for 30+ years. The thrill of digging into a new system "because it's there" lost its allure some time ago. I want my computer to enable me to do work, not to provide a playground for twiddling and tweaking.
Otherwise, she might have gotten Otellini to cry.
"Form should follow function...unless it's just plain ugly."
Also, haven't we been getting news of Apple perhaps using Intel chips moreso than they already are? It would make sense (in fact it may be life or death) for Intel to diversify, and if they are, it's no difference to them if you use OSX or Windows - they'll have an interest in both. And linux of course runs just fine on Intel chips. I think Otellini may just be laying the groundwork for a less Windows centric Intel future here, good businessmanship.
Why not just through more RAM in there and get a machinen that's 5x faster?
Calling it slow because you're paging all the time due to 128 MB of RAM is silly. $50 and your problem is totally gone. Why suffer?
You are ignoring the fundamental problem with Linux, same problem that has existed for as long as I can remember and that people keep saying is getting better, support for new hardware always lags behind Windows and the Mac. Linux will see critical mass when I go buy any piece of hardware and there is a device driver on the media that ships with it.
Fifteen? Try almost 30. The "Apple going to Intel" rumor predates the Mac. I remember hearing how Apple "had to go to the 8080" because "everybody else uses it" ever since the Apple II hit the streets.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If I go to the Firefox web site with Windows, download the installer, and run the installer I got from the Firefox site, it "just works". If I do it with Linux, I apparently need to go through a more convoluted and non-obvious process. Synaptic? What's that? This is supposed to support your argument? Simpler directory structure? Set up Konqueror to show only the Home folder, and then make subdirectories for Pictures, Films, Music, whatever.
That would be simple user file arrangement. But what about my http doc root in Apache? In Windows, that's in C:\Program Files\Apache\ unless I manually change it. In Windows, I can usually find everything in C:\Program Files\[name of app or distributor]. I'm not hunting around /var /usr /etc to see where which distro and which app put what file or directory.
Your comment about OO.o is so trivial and petty that I won't even bother to address it, suffice to say that there are doubtless dozens of little things that OO.o can do that Word cannot.
Few, in my experience. One of the reasons MS Office is so huge and bloated is because it does so many things, tries to be so many things to so many people. 99% of it is annoying, but sometimes...
If it's that urgent, file a bug report - it has a damn sight better chance of getting incorporating into OO.o than into Word. First, it would be a feature request, not a bug report. And how do you think so many features got incorporated into Word? Microsoft may seem like a huge monopoly, but it also has a huge marketing department that runs huge numbers of focus groups and user advisory panels.
The process of getting the feature added may be more transparent with OO.o, but it's just as much of a turkey shoot. Unless I want to learn to program and hack the internals of OO.o or figure out a way to write a plug-in that does it, I'm limited to waiting for someone to say "gee, it would be good to add that feature" and then either assign it or add it themselves. If I take off the "unless I want to learn to program...", it's the same boat I'm in with Microsoft.
Also, thus whole "tweak and tune" to get things like an Office Environment, Web Browser, e-mail, calendar etc - most Linux installs have these set-up by default.
No, they offer a bunch of options, but few have been "out of the box" useful in my experience. Not saying that Windows always is. But if you need to tweak and tune, I find it a LOT less confusing to do it in Windows than in Linux, and if you're just doing it for yourself instead of an office-wide install, I find Windows faster to get up and running with my choice of apps and configured the way I like it.
Linux has its strengths, I'm not saying it doesn't. But when people's minds jumpt to Apple as a Microsoft alternative instead of Linux, I find it VERY understandable. Linux has a well-earned reputation for being a DIY operating system and still has rough edges. The big, corporate, operating systems and applications don't just have traction because they're established in the workplace. They have it because they've spent years listening to customers, making their apps work the way customers want, and are driven by a "be adopted or die" economic reality that many open-source applications don't have hanging over their heads.
Now mod me down -1 Troll.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
Would that that was the case, but it was an Apple Store
(Orlando, FL) and not a CompUSA.
When I get the chance to spend some time down there,
I will rebuilt my parents' iBook harddisk from
"bare iron". Of course, I also expect to get roped
into some hands-on training.
BTW, they love NeoOffice/J (and cannot understand
why anyone would buy the Mac MS Office product).
Ok forget you have proved to be less then able to spell.
Here is but one source to establish my point:
American English
American English
Also significant beginning around 1600 AD was the English colonization of North America and the subsequent creation of a distinct American dialect. Some pronunciations and usages "froze" when they reached the American shore. In certain respects, American English is closer to the English of Shakespeare than modern British English is. Some "Americanisms" that the British decry are actually originally British expressions that were preserved in the colonies while lost at home (e.g., fall as a synonym for autumn, trash for rubbish, frame-up which was reintroduced to Britain through Hollywood gangster movies, and loan as a verb instead of lend).
The American dialect also served as the route of introduction for many native American words into the English language. Most often, these were place names like Mississippi, Roanoke, and Iowa. Indian-sounding names like Idaho were sometimes created that had no native-American roots. But, names for other things besides places were also common. Raccoon, tomato, canoe, barbecue, savanna, and hickory have native American roots, although in many cases the original Indian words were mangled almost beyond recognition.
Spanish has also been great influence on American English. Armadillo, mustang, canyon, ranch, stampede, and vigilante are all examples of Spanish words that made their way into English through the settlement of the American West.
To a lesser extent French, mainly via Louisiana, and West African, through the importation of slaves, words have influenced American English. Armoire, bayou, and jambalaya came into the language via New Orleans. Goober, gumbo, and tote are West African borrowings first used in America by slaves.
Now go away.
If I need to add more RAM is that just working ?
P.S. I did add the RAM, and then it worked, after buying RAM, and opening up the case and adding it.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I have more than 5,000 fonts. I tend to remove them. If I'm getting rid of them it's because they are crap. When you have that many fonts, you don't end up with much quality control. But the point was - you can remove system fonts, leading to instability. Oh, and if you use Font Agent Pro fonts that are disabled or deactivated can auto activate and they do show up in programs.
take a page out of the RIAA book
Of course MSFT should adopt RIAA tactics! These tactics are clearly an effective deterrent as well as a smart PR move.