Microsoft Threatens To Withdraw Windows in S.Korea

RocketJeff writes "South Korea's Fair Trade Commission (FTC) has been investigating Microsoft since 2001 for violations of South Korea's antitrust rules. According to a Reuters article, part of a recent Microsoft regulatory filing states 'it might be necessary to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new versions in Korea.' Basically, Microsoft is threatening to take their marbles and go home if they don't get the ruling they want."

Comments

Good strategy

[It doesn't come easy]

Right...that should convince the South Korean government (and the rest of the world) that they're not an abusive monopoly.

Re:Good strategy

[JavaLord]

I wonder what percentage of the south korean economy is made up of those internet cafes. Switching OS's won't really be fun for them (if it comes to that.).

Gaming is fairly big in SK also, somehow I think 'it runs on WINE' isn't going to fly.

Re:Good strategy

[El Cubano]

Right...that should convince the South Korean government (and the rest of the world) that they're not an abusive monopoly.

I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. I would just like to see them do the same throughout the rest of the world. Start threatening to take Windows out of the various world markets and see the wonders it does for OSS alternatives. At the very least people will begin to prepare migration plans and so on.

Re:Good strategy

[Shads]

It also would be the best thing microsoft ever did for linux and apple.

Re:Good strategy

[Tester]

Gaming is fairly big in SK also, somehow I think 'it runs on WINE' isn't going to fly.

But it runs on the Playstation probably is.. Its also a huge market for games, so this might make people write/port their games to non-Microsoft operation systems..

Re:Good strategy

[MoonFog]

Or it would spark more piracy as people desperate to play Counterstrike and Starcraft download Windows instead of buying it in the stores.

Re:Good strategy

[QuietLagoon]

Exactly. All this would be is a short-term pain for South Korea. In the long-term, however, it would convince companies in South Korea and elsewhere not to place strategic reliance upon a proprietary operating system that can be pulled off the market on a whim.

I have to wonder, is Microsoft's future sales of Windows starting to look so bleak that Microsoft needs to play poker with their customers? I know that yesterday's quarterly report was not the greatest, but I didn't think it was bad enough to start warranting this type of chair-throwing behavior with South Korea.

On a side note, since this news broke, if any CIO manager who is dependent upon Windows is not starting to look for strategic alternatives, that IT mangaer is not doing his or her job.

Re:Good strategy

[mlk]

I guess it depends on how legal said cafes are in the first place.

And how up-to-date they like to be, I don't think MS could stop existing copies of MS Windows from running. And I don't see WinXP++ only games coming out all that soon.

Then finally what about buying abroad?

I don't think it'll be an issue, one way or the other.

Re:Good strategy

[Fiver-]

Why would it come to that? Nothing about this would invalidate existing installations of Windows.

Re:Good strategy

[pete6677]

They won't have to switch. They'll just keep doing what they're doing right now, which is running pirated copies of Windows. Considering how rampant piracy is in South Korea, Microsoft isn't exactly going to lose any money by suspending official sales. They'll probably come out ahead by avoiding legal expenses.

Re:Good strategy

[Klivian]

I wonder what percentage of the south korean economy is made up of those internet cafes. Switching OS's won't really be fun for them (if it comes to that.).

Does not really matter, as it's not like MS can reclaim already existing Windows installs. It may create some annoyances for people planing new deployments or upgrades, but existing install will not be affected in any way. It's like if Ford decided to stop making cars, it would not cause all the Fords currently on the road to stop working.

Re:Good strategy

[MyHair]

Or it would inspire game publishers to port versions to Linux to reach Windows-free markets.

Re:Good strategy

[jxyama]

I never understood this reasoning. Private consumers aren't the only ones using PCs - enterprises and businesses use PCs too. And they do not get away with corporate-wide piracy of Windows. Even if 100% of ind. users pirated Windows in S. Korea, there's significant revenue to be had from corporate users.

Re:Good strategy

[timeOday]

Does MS make a localized vesion of Windows for S Korea? If MS quits updating that, it will eventually be unusable.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering how rampant piracy is in South Korea, <blah-blah-blah-snip>

First, South Korea isn't known for piracy any more than any other country. Second, piracy is rampant here as well as it is there as well as it is anywhere in the world. Just because you have a better explanation for stealing you music in the name of media-should-be-free rants, doesn't mean piracy is only rampant in South Korea, China, and other countries you know nothing about.

Cheers. :)

Re:Good strategy

[Shakrai]

It's like if Ford decided to stop making cars, it would not cause all the Fords currently on the road to stop working.

That reminds me of a story about how Cuba is filled with classic American cars from the 1940s and 1950s that are (for the most part) still well maintained and still on the road after all these years. They can't get new cars easily because the closest nation won't trade with them and for the longest time neither would most of the Western World.

Granted, software isn't automobiles and there are ways around it (run the American version, pirate it, switch to linux, etc.) but it's kind of amusing to think of an entire nation running Windows 2000 and XP 40 years from now.

Re:Good strategy

[Destoo]

Desert Island.
Two pcs..
One with Nethack
The other with a series of numbers to punch in every 180 hours.

Bliss (and/or insanity)

Re:Good strategy

[metalpet]

And yet imagine a world where every windows XP user is using their OS straight out of the box, without service pack and security updates.. (I believe the average pwnage time stands at about 10 minutes for that configuration)

Ford cars are not usually found to have a critical remotely exploitable security exploit every other week.

If MS withdraws support for security updates to a particular market, it makes their platform next to unusable for anyone but the most daring (or clueless) windows user.

Re:Good strategy

[Dogtanian]

I have to wonder, is Microsoft's future sales of Windows starting to look so bleak that Microsoft needs to play poker with their customers?

Steve Ballmer is reported to have said "Fucking South Koreans are fucking pussies. I'm going to fucking bury that country, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I'm going to fucking destroy South Korea." ....

In other news, Microsoft are reported to be engaged in talks with North Korean leader Kim Jong-il regarding what Ballmer calls a "synergistic exchange of resources; in exchange for free Windows XP Home licenses, Microsoft will receive the use of North Korea's dedicated military personnel and hardware, including 'cutting edge nuclear technology'".

It was noted by analysts that Ballmer was "unusually serene and satisfied looking" during this announcement. The reason for this is as yet unclear.

Re:Good strategy

[jacen_sunstrider]

Eventually?

Re:Good strategy

[LizardKing]

That reminds me of a story about how Cuba is filled with classic American cars from the 1940s and 1950s that are (for the most part) still well maintained and still on the road after all these years.

Getting a bit off topic, but many of those American cars are still running because the engines have been transplanted from a Russian Lada or Volga. If the same principle is applied in South Korea, then something like Linux will replace Windows when the localised version is too out of date.

Re:Good strategy

[TetryonX]

If Microsoft backs out of South Korea, it does not mean that current internet cafes will have to remove windows from their machines, rather, new internet cafes will just pirate windows like the rest of the world does.

If the corporation has no presence in a country, pirating of that corporations goods has very little consequence.

No, I do not use windows, although I can buy a license for both 32bit and 64bit for $4.

Re:Good strategy

[Mean Variance]

On a side note, since this news broke, if any CIO manager who is dependent upon Windows is not starting to look for strategic alternatives, that IT mangaer is not doing his or her job.

An IT manager in San Francisco who has built and managed a large functional company network on Windows should look for alternatives because Microsoft might pull Windows from S. Korea?

That's paranoid. The IT manager should always have a finger on the technology in place in relation to the alternatives, the business, and the business' future plans. But if Windows is up to the task (or Linux or Solaris or Xserve), I'm sure there are other problems to solve.

Re:Good strategy

[rainman_bc]

The question is, if Microsoft pulls out of the S. Korean market, what leg would they have to stand on to enforce their copyright?

Granted, they can pull Korean Language support out of Windows Vista though.

Re:Good strategy

[Pentavirate]

There are countries where piracy is more rampant than others. I lived in Venezuela in the mid 90's and I'd never seen such rampant piracy before in my life. People sold copies of copywrited material on every street corner. From bad duplicates of Simpson T-shirts to stacks and stacks of audio cassettes coppied onto blank tapes. I don't know anything about South Korea, but you can't say that piracy problems are the exact same no matter where you are in the world.

Re:Good strategy

[bigman2003]

First the United States
Then the E.U.
Now South Korea

How long until every government jumps on the $500,000,000 + bandwagon of suing Microsoft?

They really don't have many choices. Now they are at the point where their only answer is: "We don't negotiate with terrorists."

Re:Good strategy

[prof.morbius]

Gaming is fairly big in SK also, somehow I think 'it runs on WINE' isn't going to fly.

No, but "Runs on $DISTRO" might; there are a LOT of gamers in South Korea, and I have to wonder where the break-even point is in compiling StarCraft, God of War, or whatever for Linux is. Of course, I'm also not sure X has the necessary 3D support, so there could be other hurdles.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Can't talk about piracy with a blanket statement covering all piracy. We're talking about software piracy. Otherwise, I could say U.S ranks #1 in Social Security card piracy. But that would be misleading because U.S. is the only country that implements a "Social Security Number" for a specific purpose. It's used for many financial purposes but isn't a national ID. So you can't compare it to other countries where the local National IDs are faked.

In Context, software piracy is just as ubiquitous in the States as it is in Sri Lanka (They have a seven storey mall with nothing but pirated software, among other things). My friend bought me a Delphi 4 & 5 CD for $1.00 from Sri Lanka when he visited there. Recently someone I know who works for a U.S. employer in the U.S. was asked by his manager to try and find Delphi 7 on KaZaA. Which he did! So the employer never paid for it. And it's not a mom & pop operation either, it's a big corp.

If you can buy it for a buck, it's better to just buy the 500MB of data instead of spending time finding it online and then spending anywhere from 2 hours to a day downloading it. But if it's not available on a pirated CD, just hit the net. When you don't wanna pay $200 for something, spending a little time online might not seem like much. Just analyze the amount of trackers posted on some of our favorite Torrent sites (I'm not naming any). Look at how soon information is available.

Thanks for listening. Cheers. :)

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think they don't get away with corporate-wide piracy of Windows? Maybe extremely large visible organizations don't, but there are tons of smaller companies that get away with that sort of thing all the time.

Re:Good strategy

[SQL_SAM]

First, South Korea isn't known for piracy any more than any other country.

I did a simple google search (piracy in south Korea) and found the following interesting articles. I may be wrong, but it does look like S. Korea is known for a major amount of piracy And is my opinion that we (United States) are no way as close to the piracy in other countries like South Korea as we tend to fear repercussions and law suits more then other countries do...

http://www.mpaa.org/PiracyFactSheets/PiracyFactShe etSouthKorea.pdf

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117907504?catego ryid=1009&cs=1

Piracy losses (US$ millions) $27 million
Seizures (all items) 231,514
Piracy level (Video & Optical Disc) 25%

"Piracy has been on the rebound in South Korea since the economic downturn in 2001 and 2002. Historically, piracy of high quality, counterfeit videocassettes has been the most prevalent in the market. However, in 2003, there has been a significant increase in the number of DVD imports and optical disc burner operations in South Korea. In addition, duplication facilities of videocassette plants and now burner labs have become larger, more secretive and more sophisticated with technology. This signals a shift from the historical trend where piracy duplication facilities had small and medium capacity.

South Korea's cat-and-mouse with piracy

"With a piracy rate of 40 percent to 50 percent, according to various estimates, South Korea has become one of the hot spots for cracking down on illegal software."

Again I may be wrong but it seems that your statement is unfounded. - Cheers!

Re:Good strategy

[Alsn]

They don't? I wonder how "glass windows" and "hotwire" would be graded by secunia or some other security company. I'd say critical at the least but I don't know about you.

Re:Good strategy

[freeweed]

They really don't have many choices.

I know it's old-fashioned of me, but I think they could try to manage their business legally and ethically.

Silly thought...

Re:Good strategy

[jiushao]

I know that yesterday's quarterly report was not the greatest, but I didn't think it was bad enough to start warranting this type of chair-throwing behavior with South Korea.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about economics, but Microsoft apparently had a 24% higher profit this quarter than the same one last year, can this really be a bad result? Does Microsoft have to keep growing to "make it"? I would think intuitivly that as long as they make a profit they are doing great and breaking even is, well, breaking even.

Re:Good strategy

[QuietLagoon]

'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about economics, but Microsoft apparently had a 24% higher profit this quarter than the same one last year, can this really be a bad result?

PC industry revenue grew at a rate of 17%. Microsoft Windows and Office revenue grew at a rate of 6%. First indication is that Microsoft may be losing marketshare.

Re:Good strategy

[deaddrunk]

Yes how dare they enforce their laws. What bastards!

Re:Good strategy

[DigiShaman]

Too bad he couldn't have said that about Iran given the news lately.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be wrong, but it does look like S. Korea is known for a major amount of piracy
Correct! You are wrong. South Korea is definitely not known for a major amount of piracy.

And is my opinion that we (United States) are no way as close to the piracy in other countries like South Korea as we tend to fear repercussions and law suits more then other countries do...

Excuse me while I don't trust your opinion. You project $27mill "piracy losses", meanwhile the RIAA projects "billions" annually from music piracy alone. I wouldn't trust the RIAA so much except that you used one MPAA link.

I didn't read variety.com and news.com.com because those aren't exactly the places I would go to get statistics. The mpaa link is specifically on South Korea. That's misleading. Read the following press release on piracy in general and see that South Korea doesn't even make the list.

http://www.mpaa.org/anti-piracy/press/97/97_3_12.h tm

Hong Kong & China mentioned.

Quote:
Italy remains a significant video piracy problem in the region with an estimated loss to the U.S. based motion picture industry of $294 million per annum.

Here's MPAA on anti-piracy mission:
http://www.mpaa.org/anti-piracy/

South Korea not even mentioned. Just because Google returned a link when you searched for something doesn't mean that result set contains valid links proving your point.

Cheers.

Re:Good strategy

[wgaryhas]

So, you are trying to disprove the grandparent's point using a data from 1996 to disprove data from 2002? I don't think it works that way.

Re:Good strategy

[wgaryhas]

also, from the MPAA anti-piracy mission

Technologically sophisticated Japan and Korea represent the future of piracy in Asia

Re:Good strategy

[Pausanias]

I see your point about consoles, but MMORPGs are huge in South Korea. These often require Windows. Therefore people will want their windows PCs (unless they feel like dealing with Cedega).

Re:Good strategy

[manastungare]

Oh, they'll just make up for it in volume.

Re:Good strategy

[xrobertcmx]

For some reason I don't think runs on Playstation would cut it either. Sony is from Japan and anti Japanease feels run fairly deep over there.

Re:Good strategy

[jfelix1010]

Old-fashioned of you...going back how far? Anti-monopoly laws have only been in effect a relatively short time.

In the US, the Sherman Antitrust Act was passed in 1890. Unless you're talking plate tectonics, I wouldn't call 115 years a "realtively short time".

Re:Good strategy

[danbeck]

I missed the last MS shareholder meeting. At what point were they announcing that as a business strategy?

Re:Good strategy

[Phisbut]

Or it would inspire game publishers to port versions to Linux to reach Windows-free markets.

Right... if those people are using so many pirated versions of Windows, can you guess how many of them South Koreans contributed to the profit of game publishers?

Re:Good strategy

[orkysoft]

Have you read any EULA lately? They explicitly state that they have the right to revoke your licence for any reason whatsoever. If those EULAs are ruled as being binding, they do have the power to declare all existing legal Windows installs to be illegal.

"Nice computer you have there. It would be a shame if it turned out to contain unlicenced software..."

Re:Good strategy

[Citizen of Earth]

Piracy losses (US$ millions) $27 million

Wow, $27-trillion! That's more than half of the global economy in piracy in South Korea alone. If we could eliminate global piracy, we would all be hundreds of times wealthier than we are now!

Re:Good strategy

[JavaLord]

MMORPG's and starcraft are very popular in Korea, which is why I made my original comment. As for those who say "Who cares, they will just pirate windows", I realize they can do that but what happens when microsoft turns off all the service packs/security updates? Or there is no south korean support for Vista, and world of starcraft, or starcraft 3 comes out for Vista only? I guess they will run bootleg American versions (or some other versions), but it will still be a huge pain in the ass for a country that loves gaming so much that they broadcast matches on television.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived in Venezuela in the mid 90's and I'd never seen such rampant piracy before in my life

Ya, and the Rolexs/Louis Vitton bags/DVD's sold on New York streets are legit. Piracy is a global issue, you don't have to be in the third world/asia/eastern europe to see it. Its called a "quick buck", if there is one to be made, someone will make it.

As far as pulling Windows in S Korea, really, really, bad idea. Why, you ask? Because, SK is a wired country, they have loads of skill and talent, and they will out innovate, and out produce any NA company given the chance. You want an alternative OS that plays nice with M$ products, wait a year, there will be a solution from SK, it will work, and they will sell it, at a tenth of the cost of Windoze. Of course, I loath M$, and wish them a quick and painfull demise. However, given the foothold, the NA software industry would be gutted. Especially in the US.

Remeber back when Ford/GM/Dodge had to address their competition from Asia in the 70's and 80's. Remember what they did (of course you don't, they did NOTHING). Who's laughing now? Ford's debt, is junk status, GM is almost bankrupt, Dodge already got a bailout in the 80's, and are screwed again. And Hyundai just keeps rolling along, making piles of money, and more and more of the products you own. Oh, and before you all start screaming about "I wouldn't buy a Jap wagon for all the......", they make a ton of other stuff, that you do buy. Mostly stuff that the US used to make, but can't anymore because the quality sucks, and the cost is too high (go labour unions, save the worker, kill the employer).

Re:Good strategy

[Chiisu]

Starcraft on Linux ftw :)

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

First, the link is for 1997, not 96 (nice trolling, btw :)). Second, showing that in 97, italy was making triple-digit million losses.

Second, showing the current mission where South Korea isn't mentioned as being the biggest piracy player. From personal experience, I know that countries such as Singapore, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, India are much much much more advanced in piracy. I can tell you that the Cubase edition that you pay $900 for in the U.S. will cost $0.50 in Pakistan. Furthermore, the CD will contains as many free VST Plugins as space will allow. Furthermore, if the price is raised by the pirate sellers, the public will protest and not buy from them until they bring it back down to about $0.50. If only we could do that to MS, Real, and others that charge too much here and teach them a lesson, eh?

Re:Good strategy

[misleb]

Yeah, but how would you get Ford Escort Service Pack 2? Before you know it, people will be exploiting tank overflow bugs in your Escort and you will have no corporate entity to point your finger at.

-matthew

Re:Good strategy

[ultranova]

Wow, $27-trillion! That's more than half of the global economy in piracy in South Korea alone. If we could eliminate global piracy, we would all be hundreds of times wealthier than we are now!

No. Microsoft, Disney, and the other Corporate Overlords would be hundreds of times wealthier than they are now. You and the other mere consumers, on the other hand, wouldn't see any of this wealth.

In fact, it seems that this is the only thing that stands between Corporate Overlords and total world domination. If they can rid themselves of piracy, they will get the resources to crush all resistance and cover the whole world into a Digital Dark Age. They want DRM, and are seeking it with all of their will... Dear Slashdot readers, they must never have it.

The real question is, what do we do about it ? We need the digital equivalent of Mount Doom. In the meanwhile, dear slashdotters, pirate, pirate and pirate - we must delay them as much as we can ! And the only way to do that is to deprive them of resources. And the only way to do that is to hinder their business models - so pirate ! Only you, warez dooz and massive copyright infringement stand between world and destruction !

So, how's that for a justification for copyright infringement ?-)

Re:Good strategy

[killjoe]

It was pretty shocking to hear that a country wants one of it's enemies gone.

Re:Good strategy

[neelm]

Insightful? Are AC's allowed to mod now too?

AC, have you looked up the word Rampant? I do no think that word means what you think it means.

I lived in Korea in the mid 90's, around the time of the crash. I could walk down any of the shopping districts and there were people on the street selling pirated everything. I even bought a pirated book once, just to have it (I'm impressed by the effort to pirate a book). They would get busted for selling porn (Korea has strict rules there), but not software. If something wasn't out you wanted, all you had to do was ask and the guy would check in the back if he had it, and would make a copy there if needed.

Re:Good strategy

[dba7db]

MS made a mistake by bringing this up. Yes gaming is huge in Korea. And Win survives in many teen's home because of games. By MS daring to threaten to pull out of Korea (MS will never do it btw), people will see a potential bigger gaming market on OSS/OSX in Korea. This will motivate people to invest more energey into improving gaming experience on OSS/OSX, chipping away at one of the few pillars still holding up MS. Ever heard of an online game called Lineage? They have downloads for Win AND OS X. MS really made a dumb mistake here. MS retracting the statement won't help either. Patriotic geeks in Korea will remember this next time they pull our their wallet or recommend their friends/family what pc to get.

Re:Good strategy

[bluGill]

South Korea should not be a major consideration. Just good business practice is for IT managers to always have a finger on the technology in place in relation to the alternatives, the business, and the business' future plans. Of course many IT managers have decided that nobody gets fired for buying Microsoft, and they are not following though.

Though I would argue that your San Francisco business might care if South Korea drops Microsoft for several reasons. If they do business with South Korea they may need something other than Microsoft so they can interoperate with their customers. (for instance if they are getting OOo documents and Word doesn't open them) Or because other businesses in the above situation have switch, so Microsoft no longer has a monopoly, and thus that barrier to switching no longer applies. Most likely neither will apply.

Re:Good strategy

[SillyNickName4me]

but what happens when microsoft turns off all the service packs/security updates?

Well, according to my logs, about every Windows machine there is already infected by zombies and relaying spam like nothing.. so I doubt it would matter ;)

Re:Good strategy

[slashname3]

I have to wonder, is Microsoft's future sales of Windows starting to look so bleak that Microsoft needs to play poker with their customers?

This is just another indicator that Microsoft knows it's days are numbered. The recent news that several executives have left the company along with the special dividend they granted earlier this year and all indications. Executives know when the getting is good. And the special dividend is how they will draw down that huge pile of money they are sitting on. Expect to see that again next year some time as they try to get as much value out of the company as they can before everyone catches on. Microsoft makes its money on two main items, Windows and Office. In both cases there are viable alternatives available today to replace both of these for the vast majority of companies and home users. The tipping point has almost been reached. And when it happens is may happen fairly quickly. Countries should take notice of what Microsoft is doing. If they do then it would not be surprising to see news items listing countries that are initiating programs to move to OSS. No reason to wait around until Microsoft tries to put the screws to them. Move now in an orderly migration and prevent it from being a problem.

The only way Microsoft can turn this around is to simplify the licensing of their products and reduce the costs as well as improve the quality of the code. Unfortunately it is doubtful that they can re-invent themselves this way. It will take many years for Microsoft to completely come apart. Same thing happened to AT&T. It took many years for AT&T to finally get bought out by SBC but it finally happened this year. Micrsoft will most likely spin off a few divisions to start with then go into a final decline.

Re:Good strategy

[moogleii]

Are Playstations even sold in S.K.? Last I heard, there was an embargo on those types of Japanese products due to sentiments from WW2 atrocities. Perhaps it's been lifted.

Re:Good strategy

[Shanep]

I never understood this reasoning. Private consumers aren't the only ones using PCs - enterprises and businesses use PCs too. And they do not get away with corporate-wide piracy of Windows.

Like they do in China and Indonesia (even in government installations)?

Re:Good strategy

[mOdQuArK!]

Private consumers aren't the only ones using PCs - enterprises and businesses use PCs too. And they do not get away with corporate-wide piracy of Windows.

And how would you expect Microsoft to stop them? If they piss off the S.K. government too badly, the government can say to their corporations & citizens: "All Microsoft products are now public domain - have fun!".

Hell, not having to pay the Microsoft "tax" would probably give the S.K. companies a competitive financial advantage over companies from other countries.

If you depend on enforcement of IP laws for your business, then you can NOT tick off the government doing the enforcement for you. That's one of the problems with a business model based on a legal fiction.

Re:Good strategy

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

That's all I need, millions of Koreans clogging up the pr0n distribution systems with gigantic Windows install downloads.

Re:Good strategy

[InvalidError]

This exploit requires physical access.

Having a perfectly network-secure server (turn it off) does not magically immunize it against HDD transplant exploits, equipment theft and vandalism.

Re:Good strategy

[Cipster]

If that prompts Korean game developers to make Mac or Linux versions of their games I would be all for it. Someone had managed to get Lineage II working through WINE a while back but recent game updates (like the craptastic GameGuard) broke it completely.

Re:Good strategy

[falconwolf]

And how would you expect Microsoft to stop them? If they piss off the S.K. government too badly, the government can say to their corporations & citizens: "All Microsoft products are now public domain - have fun!"

Because of WIPO and the WTO South Korea couldn't tell people there Windows, Office, or anything else MS puts out is open source. It would be considered intellectual property (IP) theft.

Falcon

Re:Good strategy

[wljones]

The correct answer to Microsoft from Korea, in my poor Romanization of Korean, would be,"Annyonghi kasipsio", the polite form of,"Go in peace." My own answer would be, "Kara!" a low politeness form of the same thing, meaning,"Go!" or "Get lost!", correctly used with animals, small children, and foreigners.

Re:Good strategy

[mOdQuArK!]

Because of WIPO and the WTO South Korea couldn't tell people there Windows, Office, or anything else MS puts out is open source.

Like the S.K. government is going to give a damn about that if Microsoft tries to tell them they can't use any copies of Windows.

Let's see: "Economic destruction or let our people use Windows for free! I know, let's destroy our country! Yeah, that makes sense!"

As I said before, companies whose business model is based on intellectual property MUST have the cooperation of the host government (as does any business that depends on artificial-induced scarcity to suck money out of citizens' pockets).

Re:Good strategy

[edxwelch]

"amusing to think of an entire nation running Windows 2000 and XP 40 years from now."
I doubt in 40 years time there will be even one feature that actually makes it worthwhile upgrading. They'll just keep on piling the tellytubby wigits and alpha-blended animation crap til the whole thing looks like a circus.

Re:Good strategy

[mhuehne]

That's a good point. Consider M$ is just erasing all Korean font and language support from their current and future developments. How will that work for Koreans that rely on a localized version?

Re:Good strategy

[falconwolf]

Because of WIPO and the WTO South Korea couldn't tell people there Windows, Office, or anything else MS puts out is open source.

Like the S.K. government is going to give a damn about that if Microsoft tries to tell them they can't use any copies of Windows.

There's a difference between Korea, or any other country, saying software from MS or anywhere else is open source and MS saying Windows can't be used there. Because they're aren't even related I wonder why you bring it up. Fact is that if any country that's a signatory of WTO/WIPO doesn't enforce thier obligations that country can be sued in a WTO court. The US faced this a few years ago when Bush put relatively high tariffs on imported steel to protect American jobs. The EU and especially Germany complained quite loudly threatening to sue the US saying the tariffs were a berrier to trade. Bush eventually backed down.

Falcon

Re:Good strategy

[Rufus88]

That was the worst attempt at a Haiku I've ever seen.

Re:Good strategy

[oakgrove]

Note the grandparent wrote "WinXP++". Meaning games written for operating systems post-XP. What he was trying to say is games that won't run on XP but some future operating system won't be written for a while. So if Mickeyswish decides to stop translating their OS's into Korean, it won't be a problem for gamers for the forseeable future.

Re:Good strategy

[drsmithy]

And how would you expect Microsoft to stop them? If they piss off the S.K. government too badly, the government can say to their corporations & citizens: "All Microsoft products are now public domain - have fun!".

That would be an immensely stupid thing for any government to do, and would probably be not-long-followed by an economic meltdown.

You might expect something that stupid to happen in, say, *North* Korea, or some other country run by an insane nutcase, but not from any remotely representatively-governed, economically liberal nation.

Re:Good strategy

[Herby Sagues]

So now Microsoft should be FORCED to build an Operating System and sell it in the shape or form each one wants? Microsoft is being abusive by deciding not to sell a product in a country that's not profitable to them? Any government can require any company to build a product to their liking, and the company cannot even refuse or they would be being bullies?

Re:Good strategy

[mOdQuArK!]

That would be an immensely stupid thing for any government to do, and would probably be not-long-followed by an economic meltdown.

In what way? It's not like it's a real product which can be physically withheld from S.K. & its citizens. S.K. wouldn't even be changing its IP laws - just allowing a blanket exception for Microsoft products. All other companies would be perfectly free to protect their own IP, so it's not like anybody else would step up to defend Microsoft.

It's pretty funny how so many of my respondents are so absolutely sure that such a move would hurt S.K. more than it would hurt Microsoft, but haven't proposed any kind of economic reasoning to argue why that would be so. IP isn't a "real" product. It has potential value as a product only because governments enforce artificial scarcity. If a host government doesn't enforce that artificial scarcity, then there's not a damn thing that a company that depends totally on IP for its income can do about it.

Re:Good strategy

[Blue_Nile]

or they could switch to macs... Last time I checked blizzard is pretty friendly with apple...

Re:Good strategy

[roguebfl]

But you can only claim IP, need protection in markets your willing to try to sell to.
If MS will not Sell to a country, No harm can MS claim in the WTO that the movie hurts ther trade with a contry, becuase they are the ones that decalred they will not sell.

Re:Good strategy

[drsmithy]

In what way?

By effectively telling every corporation in the world that South Korea is a market to avoid for any products dependent on IP law to have value (which is a *lot* of them). The "economic meltdown" comes when corporate investment starts rapidly migrating out of the South Korean economy.

All other companies would be perfectly free to protect their own IP, [...]

Sure, right up until the South Korean government decides it's their turn to be stripped of their "intellectual property" rights.

It's pretty funny how so many of my respondents are so absolutely sure that such a move would hurt S.K. more than it would hurt Microsoft [...]

Of course it would. Microsoft plays in a global market, and South Korea is but a single country.

IP isn't a "real" product. It has potential value as a product only because governments enforce artificial scarcity.

Nevertheless, *billions* of dollars of economic activity hinge on the principals of "intellectual property". Much as I like to dream of world sans IP laws, it's not ever going to happen without a massive global upheaval.

If a host government doesn't enforce that artificial scarcity, then there's not a damn thing that a company that depends totally on IP for its income can do about it.

Which is precisely why every corporation that could would get the hell out of any country whose government decided they weren't going to do so.

Re:Good strategy

[mOdQuArK!]

Sure, right up until the South Korean government decides it's their turn to be stripped of their "intellectual property" rights.

As long as the government makes clear that they are doing so as a last resort only because Microsoft is refusing to sell any product at all in the S.K., I doubt most companies would have the reaction that you think they would. Most of them will just think that Microsoft was being arrogant & unreasonable and enjoy the chance to compete in a lucrative market without having to worry about the presence of Microsoft's competition-crushing financial tactics.

Nevertheless, *billions* of dollars of economic activity hinge on the principals of "intellectual property". Much as I like to dream of world sans IP laws, it's not ever going to happen without a massive global upheaval.

Yeah, that is a real problem - so many companies have risen to take advantage of the draconian IP laws that have been passed, big chunks of the various nations economy are based on it. It's too bad, since much of the use of the IP laws seem to be more parasitic (either preventing competition or extorting money) rather than productive, and most of the implementation of IP laws seem to encourage stagnation rather than encouraging innovation.

Still, at some point in the near future I think the IP industry is going to have to do _something_ to adapt to a more reasonable approach. China & the similar regional markets don't have anywhere near the cultural respect for IP laws that seem to be part of the Western mindset, and they are in a similar historical growth situation that the U.S. was during the Industrial Revolution.

Much of the reason that the U.S. became such an economic powerhouse so quickly is because, the U.S. industrial entrepreneurs essentially "stole" whatever European industrial ideas they felt like to build up the technology of the U.S. industry, ignoring protests from Europe about the "theft" of IP. China is doing the exact same thing right now, and if the First World countries allow IP laws (and anti-science viewpoints) to strangle their rate of innovation, it is almost inevitable that China will become the economic powerhouse of the world, while the so-called First World countries will become economic has-been backwaters.

Re:Good strategy

[mOdQuArK!]

An amusing article I just saw:

http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml ?articleID=172900626

Re:Good strategy

[lilmouse]

People sold copies of copywrited material on every street corner.

Hey, that sounds like New York City!

Seriously, tho - the guy's got a point (gal? - nah, this is /.). In Russia, there are black literal markets, where you can buy everything from "Gucci" to "All Windows - Russian - XP, ME, 2003". It's sooo much easier to buy a ripped copy of windows then it is to buy a genuine copy.

In NYC, we only get this on a few street corners, not every one.

--LWM

Re:Good strategy

[bhiestand]

I doubt in 40 years time there will be even one feature that actually makes it worthwhile upgrading. They'll just keep on piling the tellytubby wigits and alpha-blended animation crap til the whole thing looks like a circus.

OOh ooh ooh! And those 3D menus! And don't forget the transparencies! I'm excited already. 40 years, you say? I don't know if I can wait that long!!! Do you think there's any way we could donate money to the Microsoft Windows 2045 In 2010 fund? 'Cause I know I'd definitely be willing to contribute anything they want as long as I can get my 3d menus and transparent windows sooner.

Re:Good strategy

[CaptainZapp]

They can't get new cars easily because the closest nation won't trade with them and for the longest time neither would most of the Western World.

Uhh, and on what fact exactly are you basing this statement on, except on talking out of your arse?

I don't think that "most of the Western World" actually gave a flying fig about a badly botched CIA operation, which still seems to embarass and infuriate a lot of Americans up to this day.

Re:Good strategy

[mlk]

I think AoE3 is a new game. And XP has been out for some time.

So XP++-only games will come out in 3-4yrs [i]after[/i] WinXP++ comes out.

(note the ++)

Re:Good strategy

[drsmithy]

As long as the government makes clear that they are doing so as a last resort only because Microsoft is refusing to sell any product at all in the S.K. [...]

Yeah, I can really see that making all the difference.

1. SK Corp lobbies SK Government to find !SK Corp in breach of $SOME_LAW
2. !SK Corp decides its cheaper to simply pull out of SK rather than comply with $SOME_LAW
3. SK Government declares !SK Corp's "intellectual property" is now "public domain"
4. SK Corp (from #1) develops identical product from newly-public-domain'ed "intellectual property".

(5. Profit !)

[...] I doubt most companies would have the reaction that you think they would. Most of them will just think that Microsoft was being arrogant & unreasonable [...]

I doubt it. Most of them probably think Microsoft is faced with unreasonable demands and is reacting quite reasonably (from a business perspective). After all, Microsoft are just saying "it's not economically feasible for us to modify Windows XP, and Windows Vista will require modification to meet the necessary requirements, delaying its release to the South Korean market by the time taken to make those modifications".

[...] and enjoy the chance to compete in a lucrative market without having to worry about the presence of Microsoft's competition-crushing financial tactics.

I think them concentrating on actually trying to make a better product instead of whining for government neutering of competitor's products would be a better result for consumers.

Still, at some point in the near future I think the IP industry is going to have to do _something_ to adapt to a more reasonable approach. China & the similar regional markets don't have anywhere near the cultural respect for IP laws that seem to be part of the Western mindset, and they are in a similar historical growth situation that the U.S. was during the Industrial Revolution.

It's got nothing to do with "culture" and everything to do with economics. Interestingly, you go on to explain this, even after attributing it to "culture" :).

[...] it is almost inevitable that China will become the economic powerhouse of the world, while the so-called First World countries will become economic has-been backwaters.

For a while, but eventually Chinese industry will have to start coming up with its own ideas, instead of copying others'. Then IP laws will become just as draconian in China as they are today in the western world.

The most interesting thing to consider, is whether or not the western world will have an economic meltdown before that happens. I don't think it will, because while China is a big economy - and will continue to grow - is it really going to get bigger than the rest of the world ?

Re:Good strategy

[stanositar]

Well, I do not think Sony is popular anymore with geeks no matter what country they live in.

Not since they have been featuring rootkits on their CDs ;-)

Re:Good strategy

[Daengbo]

All my male, teen students do in their free time is play Starcraft. When I go to a restaurant near lunchtime, the TV is always on OnGameNet (AKA 24 hours CS / Starcraft). The female teens all play MAple Story (online MMORPG). The young adults that I know spend their evenings playing Kart Rider (online racing). Everybody wants to be a progamer when he or she grows up.

As much as I want Linux to succeed here in S. Korea, HanSoft's 3.2 version is already free, and it isn't doing their market share any good.

Not a chance of this happening in the private sector.

Oh, that's fine! That's fine!

[Mayhem178]

Screw you guys! I'm going home!

In Korea

[faqmaster]

Only old people use Windows in Korea.

Re:In Korea

[Spacejock]

If you take the windows away, that meme will become 'In Korea, only cold people ...'

Re:In Korea

[peterpi]

Only old Windows use Korea?

ROFL

[Vengeance]

Come on, we all know that MS isn't going to withdraw from the South Korean market. This is just silly.

Re:ROFL

[BerntB]

You are wrong, this is not silly. It is hilarously funny. Made my day!

If Microsoft do this, consider a PHB motivating a Microsoft strategy to his bosses:

We can safely standardize on Windows, as long as our government doesn't expect all companies to follow the monopoly laws. Otherwise, we could import English-language versions of Office and change company language. Some extra costs for language lessons, of course...

Talk about losing credibility in the market place all over the world!

Deep Thought said it best

[Verteiron]

"And who will that inconvenience?"

Re:Deep Thought said it best

[displaced80]

OMWH

Pardon?

Re:Deep Thought said it best

[silverkniveshotmail.]

troll? I'll give you +1 underrated if I get mod points soon and don't forget

Their software

[MrDoh1]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

Re:Their software

[filtur]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

Of course not!! (You must be new here)

Re:Their software

[CosmeticLobotamy]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

They should be allowed. That doesn't mean they're not jerks if they do.

Re:Their software

[zakezuke]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

This *MIGHT* be true, and I stress "might". But what's to stop S.Korea from buying copies from their neighbors, or heck, legalize flat out piracy of it. Sure Microsoft can pull out but that doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Re:Their software

[MoonFog]

This also shows a problem with the monopoly position they have. They are one of the companies that can actually make an impact by saying "we're going home" simply because of their influence and their market dominance.

Re:Their software

[k98sven]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

Nobody said otherwise. (I now take a step back to avoid being hit by the falling straw-man)

It's very simple. Microsoft doesn't have to sell their software in Korea if they don't want to. Although they'd probably not be able to stop it, since it could be imported via a third country.

But if Microsoft does want to sell their product in Korea, they have to follow the rules and laws passed by the Korean government. It's as simple as that. Bitching about (in your mind) unfair laws might be okay if South Korea was a dictatorship, but it's not. South Korea is a democracy. Those laws have the support of their people.

Or are you simply some imperialist who believe you know what's better for them than they do?

Besides which, Microsoft isn't going to get out of Korea. They can't afford to. Not because of the money, but because it would create the incentive for them to switch. There are nearly 50 million people in South Korea. Whatever platform they moved to (Linux, Mac), it would be a huge boost for that platform, which would mean a much larger strategic loss for Microsoft than it would in terms of Windows licenses.

Microsoft needs to sustain it's monopoly to survive. Why do you think they're fighting the OpenDocument format so hard? They need to stop other platforms from becoming viable alternatives. And a large modern nation like Korea certainly has the resources to do so.

Re:Their software

[Rakshasa Taisab]

The Korean goverment is also free to take the latest windows release, copy it and distribute it for free within their country. If MS goes complaining to the WTO, then Korea could just point out that said company didn't want their market and it is a vital part of their economy.

Re:Their software

[BushCheney08]

But what's to stop S.Korea from buying copies from their neighbors, or heck, legalize flat out piracy of it.

A little thing called the Berne Convention.

Re:Their software

[bahwi]

Yes, but they're currently the only major player out there, and monopoly situations are bad news for governments and businesses that rely on it. When the question comes up, "What else can we use?" and no one has any real answers, you're kinda screwed. I say kick them out, let the S. Korean's fix up KDE and gnome even moreso and make a good Office Suite or fix up OpenOffice. Necessity is the mother of invention, eh?

But the point is, a business should not be able to make threats to a government agency and affect the way it's run. That's just too much power.

Re:Their software

[Daniel_Staal]

Sure they can.

The fact that Microsoft is thinking about it is news, as well as why. Sure they have the right, but it seems the reason to do it is to threaten a country into doing what they want. (By leaving them outside of a technological loop, where everyone else is likely to have a product they don't.) This is interesting because: A company has the power to inconvience a country; Microsoft is acting like a bully; Microsoft obviously isn't seeing all the long-term implications of this.

If Microsoft succedes, they have proven a multi-national company can be above a particular country's law, and we may be on the way to an overtly corporate-run globe. If it is not a bluff and S. Korea calls it, OSS in all it various forms will get a boost, and we will get to see exactly how much power Microsoft has. If Microsoft backs down, they look like a scared bully and lose prestige. (Especally amoung governments.)

This is a high-stakes move from Microsoft. It will be interesing to watch. Most likely is some compromise position, which still shows a lot of power in Microsoft's hands.

Re:Their software

[Catbeller]

They are a monopoly, and monopolies are regulated for JUST THIS REASON. Microsoft is demanding that legal investigations into their anticompetitive actions be halted, or they will cripple South Korea by refusing to sell them product. That is the CLASSIC REASON why monopolies are anti-free market!

NO. THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHERE THERE PRODUCT IS SOLD. THEY ARE AN ABUSIVE MONOPOLY. They've lost the right. That's why we r-e-g-u-l-a-t-e them, even if Bush's government won't touch them because they hate monopoly regulations.

This isn't an "opinion", this is established law. They are not free agents anymore. They don't get to throttle their "enemies".

Re:Their software

[Ixitar]

Microsoft could remove the Korean localization files from all distributions.

Re:Their software

[megarich]

No and that's because governement still outrules companies like M$. It's South Korea's country and they have the right to allow or disallow whatever they want sold in their country like it or not.

Re:Their software

[bcattwoo]

But what's to stop S.Korea from buying copies from their neighbors...

South Koreans buying it from neighboring countries would be a win-win for MS; they get the South Korean sales, but none of the pesky regulation.

Re:Their software

[Starcom8826]

That is actually not true. SK is a member of the WTO. They cannot disallow the sale of certain items just because they don't want it.

Re:Their software

[operagost]

NO. THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHERE THERE [sic] PRODUCT IS SOLD. THEY ARE AN ABUSIVE MONOPOLY.

Until the U.N. is allowed to rule the world, they sure as heck can choose which COUNTRIES in which they will do business.

Re:Their software

[sedyn]

Businesses do not have any right to sell whatever they want.

For example, if I form a company that will sell nuclear weapons to the public, do you think the government will stand idly by (assuming it's a sane country).

If a government sees that a product will harm it's citizens they have a responsibilty to purge it from the market (*cough*cigarettes*cough*, no pun intended). I suppose they see microsoft as being harmful, though, I can't imagine that if they ban it that any South Korean developers would profit.

Re:Their software

[Delphiki]

Great idea. Nothing like punishing the people because the government has a grudge against Microsoft.

Re:Their software

[HanzoSpam]

But the point is, a business should not be able to make threats to a government agency and affect the way it's run. That's just too much power.

Some of us don't think that governments should be able to make threats to businesses and affect the way they're run.

Whatever power Bill Gates may have, he certainly doesn't have the power to take a penny of my earnings if I don't want him to have it. I don't have to work for him for the first four months of the year. He can't put me in prison for refusing to pay him or for disobeying his orders. He can't break into my house and search for drugs. He can't send my sons to war. He hasn't incinerated any religious sects, and none of his agents has shot a mother in the head while she was holding her baby. He doesn't even seem interested in doing any of these things.

Why is it that the sort of people who are always warning us against business monopolies never worry about monopolies of government power?

Re:Their software

[Hugonz]

I bet they have a huge market elsewhere for the Hangul version of Windows.... let's see.... North Korea... mm thought so.

Re:Their software

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

Of course, but at the same time it is Korea's intellectual property laws and legal system that artificially restrict people from making free copies anyway. It is their laws, they should be able to legalize or criminalize copying Windows as they wish, right?

Re:Their software

[Catbeller]

"Prosecuting a monoploy" ain't "holding a grudge". Semantic trickery.

Re:Their software

[rainman_bc]

And the sad part is that in the long run, all industries tend towards monopolies. As businesses grow, they gobble up their competitors.. Then, the busienss becomes so huge it benefits from economies of scale, making it impossible for smaller competitors to enter the marketplace and compete.

I can list dozens of examples.

IMO monopoly regulations are very important to preserve capitalism. Anti-competitive behaviour is terrible for an economy. Unfortunately, the US Govt has a hard time saying no to sector consolidation. Canada IMO is just as bad.

Re:Their software

[Catbeller]

"Some of us don't think that governments should be able to make threats to businesses and affect the way they're run."

True. And you are ideologues, and you have control of the government now. And you are wrong on all counts. Corporations are licensed to exist by the grace of the people through their elected representatives and the laws that they enact. Businesses are not godlike entities subject only to their own whims, able to manipulate markets to their advantage. Businesses exist by our sufferance; we do not exist by theirs.

"Whatever power Bill Gates may have, he certainly doesn't have the power to take a penny of my earnings if I don't want him to have it."

Wrong and wrong. Microsoft has had a "PC tax" for decades, getting a cut of the price of any PC sold, even if it had no MS product on it, by abusing their power and punishing anyone who refused to pay the MS tax by taking away their purchase discount. That is how they built their business, how they abused their monoploy to make more monopoly. Tens of billions of dollars are siphoned from our pockets involuntarily. And we are stuck with crappy OS's because it was cheaper to but MS's OS on a box than, say, DR-DOS, because the businesses had to pay for TWO OS's. You've worked for Bill for quite a while now.

"He can't put me in prison for refusing to pay him or for disobeying his orders."

REALLY? Try copying a single copy of Windows onto all your boxes. Call Bill and tell him what you've done. Refuse to go to court, refuse to pay the fine, refuse to show up to prison. See what happens.

"He can't break into my house and search for drugs. He can't send my sons to war. He hasn't incinerated any religious sects, and none of his agents has shot a mother in the head while she was holding her baby. He doesn't even seem interested in doing any of these things."

Yet. You've gone off the rails.
Corporations can and do kill people; you just don't hear about it. A diamond mine strike in Africa got some workers killed -- no one in jail last I heard. Corporations exist so that no one has personal responsiblity for their actions. Bhopal disaster in India. No on in jail. Union organizers rotting in holes. No one in jail. Poisonous landfills all over, cancer everywhere around them. No one in jail. Businesses DO kill. And you're thinking the future will be just like the present: after generations of priviledge and total power, you don't think the amoral, law-free corporations of 2100 won't kill with impugnity? You cut the sapling down while saws can still cut it, not wait until it's an unkillable forest.

And Bill doesn't have to break into your house to perform a search: with XP and Vista, he doesn't have to. He just built it into your license to use XP.

Re:Their software

[ScriptedReplay]

Bitching in a democracy is appropriate, and is often the only way to get bad laws changed.

Except that Microsoft is not a South Korean entity (leaving aside the controversy about corporate involvment in government activities). How would you like Samsung lobbying for pro-SK laws in your country? And no, saying 'they have a local branch' is not a valid argument - removing Windows sales would actually hurt the local branch as well. This is a US corporation pressuring a foreign government into dancing to their tune. And while doing the same thing in the US seems to be OK for MS, doing it abroad is liable to produce quite a backlash. If they do more than threaten, I would not be surprised if governments start dumping MS on the grounds that support can be withdrawn without notice.

This should already make for an interesting argument in the upcoming hearing that Microsoft has for the EU antitrust case though.

Re:Their software

[DeusExMalex]

Why do you assume that the sort of people who are always warning us against business monopolies never worry about monopolies of government power? Last time I checked people could be concerned with more than one thing.

I just checked again and I do, in fact, care about more than one side of an issue.

Re:Their software

[Overly Critical Guy]

You're right, and the local power company can just pack up and leave your hometown, leaving you in the dark. It's their right!

Well, no, when you have a monopoly, it's not that simple.

Re:Their software

[shawb]

The Berne convention only applies to those countries that have signed on to it. Take a look at that article you posted and try to find South Korea.

Re:Their software

[BushCheney08]

Funny, the Republic of Korea is listed on the page I'm getting...

Re:Their software

[MoogMan]

No. There are laws against predjudice. "Free market" and all.

Re:Their software

[shawb]

So Britain cannot disallow the sale of Hashish from Holland? The United States cannot disallow the sale of VWs produced in Mexico which do not meet current emissions standards?

Re:Their software

[SQL_SAM]

"Why is it that the sort of people who are always warning us against business monopolies never worry about monopolies of government power?"

I'm sorry that is an absurd comment, I believe it is more apt to say that the people who do worry about business monopolies, also worry about "government monopolies" - and then vote!

What you need to worry about are the 'sheep' who just dont care, watch Opera, and listen to Leonardo DiCaprio talk about global warming or Tom Cruise spew off about psychiatry - I'm sorry Entertainers with High School degrees do not classify as "experts" and the people that listen to and then believe them scare me much worse.

baaaaa!

Re:Their software

[wingsofchai]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

They should be allowed. That doesn't mean they're not jerks if they do.

Are you saying they're jerks for selling their product at all or for not selling it? Both could be true, depending on who you talk to.

Re:Their software

[shawb]

I guess that shows my ignorance of politics. I hereby retract my previous statement.

Re:Their software

[Picard102]

Those laws have the support of their people. Simmilar to the DMCA in the US?

Re:Their software

[Gleng]

But what's to stop S.Korea from buying copies from their neighbors

"We'll take one copy of Windows XP Pro, one copy of MS Office 2003, and 40 million blank CD-Rs. Oh, and chuck a few thousand of those fine-tip marker pens in as well." :)

Re:Their software

[mOdQuArK!]

It's their software, shouldn't they be able to sell it or not sell it where they wish?

Sure - but once they sell it, they have to play nice with the people who they sold it to if they want those people to voluntarily respect their "intellectual property".

Re:Their software

[HanzoSpam]

Microsoft has had a "PC tax" for decades, getting a cut of the price of any PC sold, even if it had no MS product on it,

Tell that to Steve Jobs. Or Commodore. Or Atari.

I'd also point out, that, for years, a "PC" was by definition an IBM compatable machine that ran MS-DOS/Windows. Anyone that was in the PC business had made a decision to be in a business where they were dependent on Microsoft and the terms they wished to sell their products under. Microsoft doesn't owe anybody their products, and they didn't hold a gun to anyone's head to go into a business building machine specifically designed to run Microsoft's software. There was nothing stopping anyone who wanted to be in the computer business from producing their own system software. Plenty of companies did, and still do, just that.

Try copying a single copy of Windows onto all your boxes. Call Bill and tell him what you've done. Refuse to go to court, refuse to pay the fine, refuse to show up to prison. See what happens.

That's called "theft", and if Bill wants to have me locked up for it, he has to appeal to - surprise! - the government to do it. Bill doesn't have the authority or the means to send a couple of goons to drag me off to jail like the IRS does.

Corporations can and do kill people; you just don't hear about it. A diamond mine strike in Africa got some workers killed -- no one in jail last I heard. Corporations exist so that no one has personal responsiblity for their actions. Bhopal disaster in India. No on in jail. Union organizers rotting in holes. No one in jail. Poisonous landfills all over, cancer everywhere around them. No one in jail. Businesses DO kill.

Governments can and do kill people. Hitler's government killed around 20 million, Stalin's around 60 million, and Mao's many times more than that. In fact, in the 20th century, governments killed over 200 million of their own citizens, and that isn't even counting wars. Show me a comparable number of people killed by corporations.

I agree - you cut the sapling down while saws can still cut it, not wait until it's an unkillable forest.

Re:Their software

[bahwi]

"Some of us don't think that governments should be able to make threats to businesses and affect the way they're run."

And of course, without limits, after Microsoft is able to gather a standing army, if you don't buy their software, they can come, destroy your house, and with the lack of government power, then you'd be left with nothing to fall back on.

If a business get powerful enough, then yes, there either needs to be government intervention, or the business has to become the government.

The "monopolies of government power?" Sorry. But we do elect of government, if you're mad at their power quit electing those who support high federal power and hate states rights. Considering your sig that's who you've voted for.

Re:Their software

[bahwi]

"Corporations are licensed to exist by the grace of the people"

Thank You. That's exactly what I believe for all government. That's why a lot of things are the way they are, but things are changing and I think people have forgotten that.

The silliest thing I've ever heard once was about the DSL monopoly down here in Texas(ISPs could only get wholesale DSL at the same price the phone co's gave it to their customers, The person said, "They can't do that, that's illegal." I told them I had sped early on the street, and was able to do it, despite the illegality of it all.

The constitution has no power, it's just a piece of paper. The government exists because of the people, not the other way around. Glad to see I'm not the only one out there.

Re:Their software

[k98sven]

It's not intended as an attack on the person, but on the opinion. I didn't even contend that the person held that opinion (and I hope they don't).

And no, I don't believe it makes me 'look like an idiot'.

While I'd be the first to agree there are a lot of idiots using the word 'imperialism' in all kinds of contexts where it isn't warranted, I believe it is warranted in this case.

How else would you describe the opinion that it's okay to subjugate other people against their will, such as proposing that they follow laws they don't support? That is imperialism. And it is a Bad Thing.

The United States of America was born out of the struggle against it. In fact, imperialistic trade practices were the very spark that ignited that flame! (Boston Tea Party, anyone?)

So think about that before you get a knee-jerk ("left-wing-nutcase!") reaction to someone using the word "imperialist".

Re:Their software

[lachlan76]

Not if they choose to buy from China.

Re:Their software

[Flower]

Nope. I have a better one. If MS has shown them any code what is to stop S. Korea from essentially declaring their version of emminent domain and using said code to help the country migrate off of Windows? That would be interesting.

Re:Their software

[SirPavlova]

People are sure to show up & claim the Berne Convention disallows this, but I'm not sure... this would be OK under that provided the law does the same for all copyright, including S. Korean, right?

By the same token, they could make copyright confiscable as a penalty in court, provided it applies to everything. Then the confiscated stuff would be fair - it could only happen if you broke the law. Like MS have. Handy, huh?

To be frank, if the BC doesn't allow that sort of thing, it's worthless, because it would hold countries hostage regardless of their soveriegn status. As long as they do the same thing to their own, it's still fair.

Re:Their software

[BandwidthHog]

Try copying a single copy of Windows onto all your boxes.

That's called "theft"

No. It’s not. It’s called “copyright infringement.” Theft requires you to actually, you know, take something.

And ...

[jmartens]

South Korea prepares a heart felt thank you letter.

Re:And ...

[ackthpt]

South Korea prepares a heart felt thank you letter.

Meanwhile, North Korea issued a Cease and Desist letter to Microsoft, claiming unlawful infringement of their strong arm and enigmatic negotiating policies.

Funny, that

[JudicatorX]

the headline below this is "Why do people switch to Linux?"

One question

[PCM2]

Wouldn't you?

Nothing to see here

[jaymzter]

This is common language in such filings to let investors know of worst case scenarios. For reference, see such filings by SCO on Groklaw.
So no, it's not a threat or a conspiracy

Re:Nothing to see here

[daVinci1980]

Yeah.. This headline is exactly why the media today pisses me off. Sensationalism at its worst.

From TFA: "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on Thursday. (Emphasis mine)

First off, that was disclosed in a regulatory filing, which was the responsible thing for Microsoft to do. They're warning their investors that should the ruling be against them, they will have to take steps to deal with the ruling which would cost them and their investors money.

Secondly, Microsoft isn't really being unreasonable. Irrespective of whatever reasons they chose to bundle these three pieces of software in the first place, they're bundled together now. There are many issues with decoupling them, not the least of which is the fact that the SDK for WMP and MSN are now included in Windows, and could cause breakage to non-Microsoft applications when removed. But let's assume for a second that not one app in the entire world uses either of these extensions to the standard Windows SDK. There's still the issue that decoupling these pieces of software will be expensive... If only Korea requires their decoupling, it may make more business sense to simply pull their product from South Korea rather than pay the costs associated with it.

Finally, Real Media (also mentioned in TFA) doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their product is inferior to their competitors' products in every way, so they chose to stay in business the old fashioned way: lawsuits.

I'm not pro-Microsoft. But I'm definitely anti-sensationalist media and anti-idiot.

Re:Nothing to see here

[ShibaInu]

The argument Microsoft is using is the same one they always use - decoupling X will make Windows unstable. Removing IM from the OS will make the OS unstable? What kind of crap is that? Microsoft is clearly using their monopoly position in the OS market to cram non-OS software down out throats. Glad the Koreans are calling them on it.

Re:Nothing to see here

[Tux007]

"Finally, Real Media (also mentioned in TFA) doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their product is inferior to their competitors' products in every way"

Real Media has been way ahead of WMP. But they've never been able too make any real money with their product, because MS started to bundle WMP with Windows. So by lack of funds they couldn't keep up. (Same story with Netscape.) That's why their product is now inferior. And that's exactly the point.

Re:Nothing to see here

[daVinci1980]

No offense, but I think you're mistaken. Real was--at its best--on par with its competition. But it's competetion was not just WMP. It was competing with QuickTime, which was pretty much always superior.

With Quicktime, I can play a large number of formats in a lightweight player that has fairly small file sizes (for its native format). The player starts up quickly--although it does do the pesky Mac thing of having a new instance for every video I open.

With WMP, I can play virtually infinite formats in a slightly heavier player that has arbitrary file sizes (based on the file type). I don't have to install anything, and if the player comes upon a format it doesn't know how to use, it will attempt to go out and look for a codec. It usually doesn't work, but the concept is right. Oh, and its not like WMP is something that's newly bundled with the OS. Windows Media Player has been bundled with Windows since Windows 3.1... That's right, before it was an OS.

With RP, I have to install kludgy software that runs all the time, has slow startup (and always has), and now connects to the internet whether I want it to or not. I have to hunt through their website to find a link to install the free version (or at least I did the last time I used RP). And the native format has very 'tinny' audio. The file sizes aren't generally great, but then that makes sense because their file format is basically a wrapper around mpeg-3 audio (which adds overhead and makes it icky) and a crappy video codec.

RM claiming that MS's choice to bundle WMP with the OS as killing their application is similar to me claiming that GM is killing my radio business because they bundle their cars with radios... It's not GM's fault that I didn't look at the market before I decided to sink millions of dollars into an unworkable business model. Neither is it MS's fault that RM decided to try to release a media player when one already came with Windows.

But hey, maybe your definition of 'way ahead' is different from mine.

Re:Nothing to see here

[OldManAndTheC]

I disagree. All Microsoft must do is communicate that there is a financial risk associated with their Korean operations. If they wanted to be neutral about the situation they could have said something like:

"If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it could have a material impact on company revenue"

That's all they need to say in order to cover themselves in a regulatory filing - they are aware of a risk to investors, and they are disclosing it. There is no need for them to specify the action they might take in response. This is a clear shot across the bow.

Re:Nothing to see here

[Tux007]

As I remember it. Streaming radio and later streaming video over the internet started with Real Player. At that time they were way ahead of competition. It took MS quite some time to provide streaming media and catch up, And RP wasn't slow then (to the standards of that time).

After that you got Real Jukebox to manage your music and video collection. The MP from Windows 3.1.. could just open and play files on your pc.

Later RP got to be a kludgy, slow, kind of adware or maybe even spywareapplication. (They must have tried too make money that way.)

MS could fund the development of WMP to what it is now out of the money they made on their OS. And because it was allready bundled with the OS, nobody was going to pay for RP. Given MS monopoly on the OS-market, the question is, if that was fair.

An answer to a question?

[ackthpt]

I guess there's an answer here to the question "Linux: Why Do People Switch To Linux?"

"So Korea, why did you switch to Linux?"

Korea: "For a variety of reasons. First, Microsoft violated many of my anti-trust regulations. Second, because it is foreign owned and controlled, even it their home country is one of my allies. Third, TCO is very high. Fourth, I have had many security and quality issues with their Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none operating system. Fifth, Microsoft in response to the charges had threatened to slow or not at all release new products. And finally, because they took their marbles and went home."

"Their marbles?"

Korea: "Yes, I'm very disappointed, they had some very pretty catseyes and peeries."

"If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on Thursday.

Man. Are these people lazy, greedy or what? An entire country, with a considerably strong economy that DEC, Pr1me, Unisys, etc. would absolutely have sold their souls for. Microsoft can't have it their way so they're going to pull out. Blimey.

It's a bluff

[overshoot]

Microsoft knows better than to offer a foothold to any kind of competition.

Since the whole point of their bundling was to prevent competitors access to markets, walking away from the market isn't exactly an effective counter is it?

Re:It's a bluff

[Trigun]

Just release a version with no North or South Korea, just one big People's Republic of Korea.

They'll take the hint.

Man, browsing Slashdot with lynx sucks. Taco, unban me please.

Re:It's a bluff

[LoaTao]

I agree that it is a bluff. If MS withdraws from the S. Korean market they get: 1. Loss of revenue (not just from Windows but Office, etc.) 2. Increased opportunity for the competition 3. Probably more piracy in S. Korea with little incentive for the government to pursue the pirates. I personally see no up side for them.

Re:It's a bluff

[chris_mahan]

On top of that, it's not like the South Koreans can't get their friend hackers in China-Taiwan-HongKong to stream them the latest version of whatever OS they want.

The real uptake would be more games designed for linux since gaming is such a large market in SKorea. This would push manufacturers of gaming-grade pc equipment to better support Linux.

I hope Korea calls their bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be nice if South Korea were to decide that they didn't need new versions of Windows enough to justify changing their laws.

That would be great!

[Entropius]

I can't think of anything that would get Cedega fixed up and ready for prime time faster.

Having fun with Mr. Ballmer

[NatasRevol]

I'm sure you could get Steve Ballmer to say a few more stupid comments:

http://www.axisofstevil.com/djballmerfresh.swf

Re:Having fun with Mr. Ballmer

[tomhudson]

I'm sure you could get Steve Ballmer to say a few more stupid comments:

http://www.axisofstevil.com/djballmerfresh.swf Freaking hilarious --- and it runs under linux !

Re:Having fun with Mr. Ballmer

[NatasRevol]

And how it got modded offtopic AND redundant, I'm really not sure.

Microsoft, in thus Mr. Ballmer, said some stupid things about the market in SK. That URL makes Ballmer say other stupid, and funny, things.

So, for those of you who don't read at -1, here it is again!

http://www.axisofstevil.com/djballmerfresh.swf

Re:Having fun with Mr. Ballmer

[tomhudson]

I liked it enough to repost it in my journal http://slashdot.org/~tomhudson/journal/120845

Maybe we're seeing the handiwork of Microsoft "Team 99". ... or Jeff Merkey AND Steve Ballmer have mod points ...

Best thing that could have happened

[FunnyLookinHat]

This is the best thing that could have happened... the more stubborn and ridiculous microsoft acts, the more they will have to rely on how good their product is rather than monopolization... and with that, either windows will get better or linux will become more prevalent. Either way I'm happy

Benefit to Linux gaming

[Cyphertube]

Barring piracy, given the number of online gamers in South Korea, wouldn't this just encourage game developers to develop for other platforms?

If they had to develop for Linux because that was the only legally available platform that could run on their hardware with gaming support, then game companies would likely have the critical mass they'd need to start really building for Linux.

Even if they just wanted to continue developing for Windows, I'm sure a number of publishers would push a lot more support for Wine development, so as not to lose sales in South Korea.

It's always a bad threat when following through will cause the one threatening more harm than good.

Why Not!

[andrelix]

I don't want to get flamed too hard here, but why not? I know M$ has done some predatory things in the past, but they also do a lot of good and get constantly bashed for it. In an open market why should M$ have to sell their goods in a Country that constantly hassles them? I say let them, this will allow the open source movement to see how well they can step up to the plate as well. Just my $0.02...

Re:Why Not!

[just_another_sean]

Why not indeed. if they want to pull out then, so be it, they are free to do so. But, I really think that they won't. They a) will not want to give up this market and b) don't want to send a message to the rest of the world that it can happen to them at anytime thus spurring F/OSS adoption to new heights.

The part of this that bothers me I guess is that I truly believe they are just trying to play hard ball and posture and threaten. In the end, IMO, their only goal is to get S.K. to drop their anti-trust allegations and let MS continue to operate on MS's terms.

Of course they are free to pull out and has been said elsewhere this may just be a "worst case scenario" SEC filing thing but until they *actually do* pull out of S.K. I will continue to look on this as just empty threats and posturing.

Re:Why Not!

[LionKimbro]

Sure, Microsoft does good. But you can't punch someone in the head, then hand them $10, and say: "Hey! Why are you looking at me so strange? I gave you $10; I did good."

Re:Why Not!

[andrelix]

ok, good one, but if it was $100, or $1,000, maybe??? Lets face it, Mike Tyson has made a living off of that mentality...

Re:Why Not!

[LionKimbro]

no, No, NO!

No punching people in the head!

But if you give money, and you act repententant, you can be restored to community grace. :)

Good strategy by Microsoft

[Monkey]

This is a clever strategy on the part of Microsoft. The Koreans will be brought to their knees when they realize they need Windows to play Starcraft.

Re:Good strategy by Microsoft

[demontechie]

No they don't. That's why god made Mac OS. :P

Re:Good strategy by Microsoft

[Toloran]

Not true! It also runs on OS X. :D Maybe this will cause all their WoW and Starcraft addicts to switch to Mac.

Re:Good strategy by Microsoft

[xclay]

Looks like Microsoft learned few things from North Korea after all.

Re:Good strategy by Microsoft

[jml75]

Actually, they don't need windows to play starcraft, they can use cedega and any linux distro they want...

Re:Good strategy by Microsoft

[JoshWurzel]

FYI, starcraft runs on OS X. They even release bug fixes from time to time. The last one was just a couple weeks ago, in fact. Now there's NOTHING stopping them! BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Nothing to see here..

[Pudusplat]

"If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new versions in Korea,"

So, if I'm reading it right, Microsoft is saying that they will either not release a "special" version of windows for S. Korea, or that releases will be delayed (presumably to create the modifications required by their Anti-Trust regulations).

This seems perfectly reasonable. They're not even saying they will necessarily pull windows from the market, it might just take them longer to develop the "MS Vista - S. Korea Version" than it would to release the standard. Nothing to see here... more Microsoft non-news.

Plus, if S. Korea is saying "play nice" and they say "no" outright, this is still well within their rights, there is no mandate that they must release software for the masses (In fact, SlashThink directly opposes this). More power to S. Korea if they think they can actually pull that off...

Re:Nothing to see here..

[Eric Damron]

It seems to me that Microsoft is admitting that their practice of bundling their media player in with their monopoly product is a violation of anti-trust laws. I guess they figure that paying off one company makes that okay.

It's like the flight attendants always say

[$RANDOMLUSER]

bye. buh bye. bye. bye. bye. buh bye. buh bye. bye. bye. buh bye.

i reckon not

[conJunk]

Microsoft can't have it their way so they're going to pull out.

it's probably been mentioned in a comment i missed, but there's no way they're pulling out... it's just FUD, trying to pressure SK into the ruling they want... if they don't get the ruling, they'll still seel in that country

new business model?

[blackcoot]

1) open mouth
2) insert shotgun ...
$$$ profit! $$$

Re:new business model?

[FrankieBegbie]

Well, it did work for Nirvana....

Revoke their copyright?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't South Korea just be able to say, "Very well then, your product no longer enjoys any copyright protection by our laws"?

Copyright is a privlidge governement extends to corperations, after all. It can be revoked. If the software is not available, what do they have to lose?

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Stargoat]

Then Microsoft can file with the WTO. Korea is not playing by the rules of the WTO, so Microsoft is perfectly justified in picking up its marbles and going home.

As for all the Linux zealots proclaiming victory, that's just foolishness. There are corporations in Korea that require Microsoft to do their work. Migrating these places would cost millions, if not potentially billions. Think of all the issues. Training users, the actual migration, new support staff, in many cases new hardware. The corporations will never allow it.

Microsoft has not taken the high road, but neither has South Korea. But in this case, it sounds like MS has the advantage.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Fiver-]

"Microsoft has not taken the high road, but neither has South Korea."

Care to elaborate? The KFTC is asking them to unbundle certain software, not abandon the South Korean market.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Stargoat]

Korea is attempting to force government regulation on a product that has not received government backing or free government money like railroads or airlines.

Like most folks here, I have switched to Linux, although I maintain a Windows box for my gaming. It's a perfectly viable solution, and if Linux, a Mac, or something else were obviously superior to MS, I would be glad to migrate there. The monopoly only exists because Microsoft creates genuinely superior products.

Basically, South Korea is looking for cash from Microsoft. This is not about monopolies, because the monopoly does not exist.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Sgt. B]

I agree. S. Korea hasn't played by the rules for a long time. Having spent 9 months there while serving in the Army. I quite frankly, think it's funny that S. Korea would even have anti-trust regulations since they don't believe in or obey copyright laws. You can go down the street and buy the latest CD from any artist burned to CD-ROM with the cover photo copied in black and white. Same goes for software, cars, electronics, etc. In my view, it's hypocritical for them to ask ANYTHING of a sofware company. Not that I'm a great fan of Microsoft. I am a great fan of protecting intellectual property so we don't have to pay 5 times the cost because of over compensation due to people and countries that blatantly ignore infringement laws. If you've ever ACTUALLY been there, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't been there. Go. Buy yourself a cheap Ford Mustang while your there. Only catch is that it's actually made by Daewoo.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Tony]

Basically, South Korea is looking for cash from Microsoft. This is not about monopolies, because the monopoly does not exist.

Let's see... in one post, you say that if Microsoft were to pull out of S. Korea, it would cripple their economic power, and in the next post you say there is no monopoly?

I'm sensing some cognitive dissonance here.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say in essence; but you can't have it both ways.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[SComps]

Here! Here! If I had mod points you'd get them. Your post was so lucid and well thought out I actually forgot I was reading slashot for a few seonds. Then I got to the next post where somebody mentioned "wine" like it was a serious alternative. *grin*

Anyhow thanks, you made my day!

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[Stargoat]

I did not say cripple, but it would cost millions, and the effect would be as such. However, millions that are pre-accrued for and a transition that takes place slowly and is well thought out is something completely different.

I've worked for several small banks which were required to use a data processor. A migration for a bank with 300 million in assets from one data processor to another is fine, but cannot be done in a two week, or even two months period. For large banks, this process can take as long as two years. It's basically the same thing. If Microsoft places South Korea in an Interdict, then there will be problems. But companies can migrate to other products without being in a monopolistic situation.

The same thing is true of Linux, OS-X, or any other OS. This is not a monopoly, but it is a big decision and a hard thing to do.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[lcam]

If an SK bank was using MS software to handle it's transactions, it probably already went out of business.

I think someone should update the Get the Facts materials about how government law enforcement can raise TCO.

Leo

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[tepples]

Korea is attempting to force government regulation on a product that has not received government backing or free government money like railroads or airlines.

Copyright itself is government backing.

The monopoly only exists because Microsoft creates genuinely superior products.

Or because it allegedly pays hardware makers not to release even those specifications necessary to get peripherals working on a Free operating system. For instance, had my Microtek scanner been supported in SANE, I would have at least dual-booted in the Mdk 9.1 days. It still isn't supported.

Re:Revoke their copyright?

[SirPavlova]

What are the rules? This isn't about copyright. If it was, you'd be spot on, but it's about monopolistic business practices & anti-trust regulation, a different kettle of fish entirely. South Korea is telling Microsoft to fix it's product in order to comply with competition laws.

Different Tactic

[ackthpt]

it's probably been mentioned in a comment i missed, but there's no way they're pulling out... it's just FUD, trying to pressure SK into the ruling they want... if they don't get the ruling, they'll still seel in that country

Usually Microsoft just comes in with a sweet-heart deal, cutting prices. This doesn't appear that shape of deal at all.

Tsk tsk tsk

[SandMonkey]

My my microsoft in hot water again... what a supprise! Microsoft has so much bad PR now that they may ass well just release "Windows Virus Edition" and just get it all over with!

Re:Tsk tsk tsk

[Frostalicious]

that they may ass well just release "Windows Virus Edition" and just get it all over with!

I had no idea windows software was delivered rectally!

Re:Tsk tsk tsk

[SandMonkey]

Man... I am king of the bad typos today... But then... maybe that's another version of windows they could release... Windows AE >.

Re:Tsk tsk tsk

[crimson30]

Microsoft has so much bad PR now that they may ass well just release "Windows Virus Edition" and just get it all over with!

Isn't that basically what ME was?

Clause in Longhorn EULA to come

[TheSpoom]

24. ANTI-SOUTH KOREA PROVISION

Windows may not be used and is not licensed for use in any area of South Korea because they are big doodyheads and we don't like them any more.

Re:Clause in Longhorn EULA to come

[Shakrai]

25. PRO NORTH-KOREA PROVISION

Windows and Office Suites may be used on all computers operated by North Korean nationals and Governmental agencies free of the usual licensing fees.

Want to lay odds on North Korean ballistic missiles running Windows vs. South Korean defense systems running Linux? ;)

Re:Clause in Longhorn EULA to come

[thephotoman]

Yeah. I've got a line of 12 on S. Korea over N. Korea.

Re:Clause in Longhorn EULA to come

[ihgreenman]

Imagining a whole new meaning of "the Blue Screen of Death".

*Bad mental movie*!

Re:Clause in Longhorn EULA to come

[Forager]

Corresponding ammendment attached to Korea's copyright laws:

Chapter 13, Section 3, Paragraph 7:

"All copyrights held by Microsoft, past, present and future, are now to released to the public domain. Who's the doodyhead now, poopypants?"

Unpossible

[NicodemusPrime]

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer already lost their marbles.

Soup Nazi

[narsiman]

No outsourcing business for you. Next in line.

Marbles

[Anonymous Coward]

"Basically, Microsoft is threatening to take their marbles and go home if they don't get the ruling they want."

I hate to rain on the Microsoft bashing parade, but I think it's more like Korea saying: "We don't like your marbles, change them." And Microsoft saying:"Fuck you guys, I like my marbles the way they are, take them as is or I take them home."

Re:Marbles

[Catbeller]

South Korea: "Obey the damned law. You are crushing competitive businesses by abusing your monopoly position in the market."

Microsoft: "We know. That's what we do. Altho we aren't a monopoly. Really. Now, exempt us from the law, or we don't do business in South Korea. That's what we call 'crushing laws we don't like'. It's a thing we monopolies do. Fuck you, and God Save Ayn Rand."

So what?

[Mullen]

Okay, so what's wrong if Microsoft does not want to sell Windows to the Korean market? If I make a product, I don't have to sell it to you.

I think this is a great chance for Linux on the desktop to get a toe hold. All those complaining sound like the people who wish for something, then complain when they get it.

Re:So what?

[Da Penguin]

Sure, you don't have to sell to those you don't want to. But if you instrument a product such that people cannot live without it, then threaten to take it away unless you have your way with the government, this is now in a completely different (under)realm.

Re:So what?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Of course you don't! But that doesn't mean you're not an asshole to acting that way.

What is it with all these idiots who go on the defence of anything "because they're allowed to"? Who are these spinless gits who have no self-worth or sense of morals?

Re:So what?

[aesiamun]

Business isn't about morality. Where did you even get that concept from? And morals change from region to region so Microsoft would have different morals in the US than they would in South Korea.

Re:So what?

[Decameron81]

"Okay, so what's wrong if Microsoft does not want to sell Windows to the Korean market? If I make a product, I don't have to sell it to you.

I think this is a great chance for Linux on the desktop to get a toe hold. All those complaining sound like the people who wish for something, then complain when they get it."

Of course they are free to do as they will. But that doesn't mean we are supposed to accept it.

Re:So what?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

It isn't, and that was my point.

Woot! More MMORPG games for Linux ;-)

[RunzWithScissors]

This would be excellent for us Linux users. The MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) industry sees Korea as a huge market. If they couldn't run their games on Windows, then the game companies would have to port their stuff to Linux to stay in the Korean market. I see this as a win-win all the way around.

-Runz

A dash of reality, here

[Control Group]

Oh, please.

MS isn't going to pull out of South Korea. Everyone involved already knows that. The statement is just part of the usual grandstanding that always goes on with this sort of thing. They won't pull out because it's too large a market to just write off, and they don't want another country deciding to go with a competitor nationwide.

Re:A dash of reality, here

[grimJester]

So you would say they penetrate a market, do a bit of push-pull to get the customers excited, but never pull out entirely?

Re:A dash of reality, here

[twitter]

The statement is just part of the usual grandstanding that always goes on with this sort of thing.

What a great apology that is, "My lawyers are all liars, so don't believe a word I say."

The Microsoft ship has gone down. What you hear now is bursting bulkheads. Microsoft is so vast that many inside do not realize they are underwater. The executives, who are quitting in droves, know.

Re:A dash of reality, here

[Jesus_666]

Yeah, but I say they're still going to release prematurely and leave the recipients somewhat dissatisfied.

It's probably just accurate

[iabervon]

Those are, in fact, things that the South Korean government could demand if they found Microsoft to be a monopoly, and filings are supposed to mention such risks that investors take. As unlikely as it may seem to us, if Microsoft is prohibited by the South Korean government from selling Windows, or required to make modifications to the software before they sell it, they might actually comply with the order.

Steve Ballmer quoted as saying...

[camusflage]

"I'm going to fucking kill Korea. I'll fucking bury them. I've done it before, and I'll do it again."

Pretend it's not Microsoft...

[capillary tube]

I know it's easy to assume evilness simply because it's Microsoft, but I don't see it in this case. If a market is potentially going to be hostile to your product in the near future, it's prudent to plan for an adjustment or elimination of your product's presence in that market; if you don't, you stand to overproduce and lose a lot of money. I'd be doing the same thing.

Right...

[ILikeRed]

SCO is just the picture of normalcy.

Now if only we could get them to pull their products from the US, I would be happy.

Re:Right...

[Auraka]

You don't have to, nobody buys it anyway...

Re:Right...

[ArhcAngel]

SCO is just the picture of normalcy.

Now if only we could get them to pull their products from the US, I would be happy


That's what they've been trying to do! Get everybody to stop distributing "their" code

Why Do People Switch To Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess this would be one reason.

http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/10/28/1226229.s html?tid=4&tid=106

Isn't that their right?

[MoNsTeR]

If I don't want to sell you something, by what moral principle could you compel me to do so anyway?

The "if you're gonna be a shitty customer, I'm gonna ban you from my store" play seems perfectly reaosnable to me.

Re:Isn't that their right?

[Fiver-]

But the "You broke our laws and have to abide by our rulings" play is somehow unreasonable?

Re:Isn't that their right?

[MoNsTeR]

Putting aside the question of whether such a law is at all just...

So the government says "you can't do that, you have to do this instead," why can't MS respond with, "well we don't want to do that, so we're not going to do anything, bye!"? Taking one's ball and going home truly is the perfect analogy. If you're going to try to impose your rules on me, you need to be willing to accept the possibility that I'll react by withdrawing my participation in thte game.

Sure, you can spin it as MS trying to "extort" the government to change their ruling, but that implies MS is bluffing. It may very well be the case that it's better for them to exit that market than play by the local rules. And if they're willing to actually do that, more power to them. Governments need to be shown the unintended consequences of foolish policies.

Re:Isn't that their right?

[julesh]

If I don't want to sell you something, by what moral principle could you compel me to do so anyway?

It is a regulation that is frequently applied to monopolies. The idea is that by destroying most of the competition in the marketplace, the company has become obliged to perform whatever work the destroyed competitors would have undertaken.

It seems reasonable to me, at least. I don't want (e.g.) British Telecom to turn around and say I can't have phone service because I paid them late too many times last year. That would place an unreasonable burden on me, as I would have difficulty getting an equivalent service from anybody else.

Re:Isn't that their right?

[SteveX]

Doesn't monopoly mean you have no choice but to buy their products?

If Microsoft moves out and people switch to alternative products, doesn't that just prove they weren't a monopoly?

If everyone buys my donuts and the competition goes out of business, am I now forced to sell abusive customers donuts because I'm the only donut company left?

Re:Isn't that their right?

[just_another_sean]

Citing violations of their sovereign law is hardly being a "shitty customer". This is not the same as walking into a 7/11 with no shoes and telling the guy behind the counter to go f* himself. Whether you agree with their laws or not if you want to do business there you have to obey them.

But as I said in another post they are free to pull out if they wish. I don't think they will but they are perfectly free to do so. Last time I checked shooting youself in the foot was not against the law.

Re:Isn't that their right?

[julesh]

If Microsoft moves out and people switch to alternative products, doesn't that just prove they weren't a monopoly?

No. If the electricity supplier (assuming there were only one) in my area decided not to sell electricity to me, so I switched all my appliances to run on gas or batteries, it wouldn't mean that the electricity supplier wasn't a monopoly.

If the product available isn't equivalent in every way that a reasonable customer is likely to care about, then it's availability doesn't stop the original supplier from being a monopoly.

OSX and Linux (the only practical competitors) are not equivalent to Windows. There are many applications which are only available to Windows users and will not run on either of these systems, therefore they are not an acceptable substitute for many users.

If everyone buys my donuts and the competition goes out of business, am I now forced to sell abusive customers donuts because I'm the only donut company left?

If there is some practical reason why nobody could set up in competition to you (e.g. the "applications barrier to entry" of the Microsoft case) and your original competitors would have served those customers, then yes, I'd say you're morally obliged to serve them. Legally, it depends on the branch of your government that deals with competition regulation and what regulations they want to enforce on you.

Microsoft can get out of this legally, because there's no government that has the authority to force them to do business in Korea. Morally, I don't think they can.

The way I see it.....

[8127972]

There are three possible explanations:

1. Microsoft doesn't make a lot of money in South Korea, so they don't care if they're there or not.

2. This is just a stunt better used by an 8 year old rather than a mult-billion dollar software company.

3. Microsoft is desperate to hold on to its domination of the planet earth. After all, when you control over 90% of the desktops on earth there's nowhere to go but down.

Re:The way I see it.....

[Aphrika]

Or...

4. By giving in to the South Korean demands, MS sets a precedent that other governments start to follow on a per-country basis, fragmenting the features Windows offers worldwide, raising the cost of Windows development/shipment and increasing the likelihood of compatibility problems for applications.

That's not too far fetched really. All you need is individual countries to start asking for the removal or inclusion of features and suddenly your easy to ship, globally compatible product turns into a nightmare to support, both for new releases and any applications that run on it. The EU already had its way with Windows XP (N) editions. Now while that was a compromise, it still allowed XP Home and Pro to be shipped. What we're looking at here is a demand for the removal of features from all versions of Windows shipped in a particular country. That's a whole different ball game.

Re:The way I see it.....

[Wildkat]

You are dead on with #1. I was imprisoned ....er...stationed in South Korea for 363 days (whose counting) in 2000/2001. There wasn't a single software program that couldn't be bought for 5000 won or about $3 on the streets of Seoul. I was actually harder to purchase legit copies of software than cracked versions. I wouldn't blame any company with valuable IP for pulling out of the Korean market.

If MS really wants to bring them to their knees they should buy Blizzard and threaten to withdraw Starcraft from the country.

Re:The way I see it.....

[NotoriousQ]

3. Microsoft is desperate to hold on to its domination of the planet earth. After all, when you control over 90% of the desktops on earth there's nowhere to go but down.

I actually want to see what will happen if MS will revoke XP activations for the whole country in an instant. But perhaps that is just that madman in me. I still think this would be an awesome sight...kinda like a nuke exploding a mile away.

Re:The way I see it.....

[tepples]

After all, when you control over 90% of the desktops on earth there's nowhere to go but down.

No. A company with market power in desktops can expand from desktops to set-tops, and Xbox 360 is part of this initiative.

Re:The way I see it.....

[pimpimpim]

#2 might be a practical one: If it fails, they could always blame it on the intern! Wasn't there some young kid who got his MSCE some time ago, might be they hired him to make strategic decisions for the asian market ;)

Re:The way I see it.....

[SirPavlova]

If MS really wants to bring them to their knees they should buy Blizzard and threaten to withdraw Starcraft from the country.

I keep seeing jokes about Starcraft - is it really that big over there? Or is it just a handy stereotype?

Procrastination ahoy...

[enigma48]

My thoughts on this:

Initially: If Google threatened to stop offering services for France/German users, they can get around those pesky censorship laws. I doubt people would be arguing there. In a millionth of a second, there'd be dozens of replies: it's not the same, killing someone and evading taxes are both 'crimes' but they aren't equal. Microsoft has been convicted and investgated for antitrust issues in multiple countries - I'm willing to go with "MS is bad".

That being said, MS still has the right to decide "You know what? Not worth it guys - see you when the next friendly government comes in." I have a feeling this would probably hurt MS more than SK though.

Without services in Windows (over a medium/long term), companies will switch to non-MS OSes and apps. South Korea is a fairly decent market with some industry heavyweights - if they switch, the companies that support them will have to offer non-MS support.

While MS could EASILY take the hit in profit, they seem to be deathly afraid of Linux/etc getting any sort of a hold. Anywhere. Thinking about moving an arm of goverment over to Linux? We'll give you a BIG discount this year. Now, it seems standard operating practice for many organizations to threaten a Linux shift to get better pricing.

So will MS leave SK? Not likely. The "we may leave the market" statement is a good scare tactic, but like another poster said, is normal to hear in the beginning. MS is just blowing smoke, like any other company. They'll probably tie the antitrust hearing/penalties up in courts for a while, devote resources into getting a better say in government, and wait till it possibly blows over.

Just giving up and saying "Hey linux, you deal with these guys - they don't like our rules" doesn't seem to happen all that often. Hope the SK government knows this and doesn't prematurely get scared.

Re:Procrastination ahoy...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The "we may leave the market" statement is a good scare tactic, but like another poster said, is normal to hear in the beginning.

I'm not too sure about this. You have to remember they are threatening a government, not some other corporation. Not much is stopping S.Korea from ruling that MS is abusing their monopoly so badly that they have decided to renounce all of MS's intellectual property rights and all versions of Windows and other products are free for all citizens. Alternately, they could run that the Korean subsidiary of MS must separate from the National corporation and continue development of Windows as a local product. Governments have a lot more options in dealing with MS than you seem to be giving them credit for.

Flawed assumption?

[Alcimedes]

Aren't they then assuming that people are actually paying for Windows in S. Korea. What good does it do you to withdraw your product from the market when everyone is just stealing it anyway?

Dude, that's like Matrix 101.

Re:Flawed assumption?

[dba7db]

Yes, flawed assumption on your part.

Computer companies sell boxes with Win and probably office bundled which are paid for. Piracy in Korea? Yes, but same thing everywhere else...

IMHO

Bye Bye Microsoft

[3TimeLoser]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out...

Finally they (M$) do something right...

[foniksonik]

This is the correct response to not getting your way, at least in commerce. When the consumer doesn't like the product as it is and demands that it change before they buy it, the distributor or manufacturer has every right to say "fine, then we won't sell it to you."

S. Korea should invest heavily in Apple and then buy Apple PCs for desktops and use Linux for Servers... that will show Microsoft they aren't the only player on the block. They may have a lot of Marbles, but Apples are perttier and don't break as often when used.... Linux has great Smashers.... they're not pretty but they do the job really well.

Re:Finally they (M$) do something right...

[jc87]

I dont want to flamme but ... why just not use Gnu/Linux (before Torvalds there was Stallman) both in Desktop and servers , i currently use Ubuntu and cant complaint , it works great for Desktop , and that way they would save a lot of money.

As Microsoft packed up and left

[springbox]

South Korea said, "that's ok, we'll just use Linux and WINE." Buh-zing Microsoft.

Good for South Korea. . .

[mazulauf]

Now, how do we get them to withdraw from the US market?

Withdrawal doesn't work...

[HDlife]

Didn't your health teacher tell you?

Withdrawal doesn't work. Some little windows will get out and soon you will have lots of illegitimate windows running around.

would be a nice experiment

[free space]

I don't think MS will really withdraw Windows from a whole country, but it would be a cool experiment if it did.
Imagine , a country where Windows isn't sold ( and persumably, there's some means to stop people from pirating it). What would they do?
Will they switch to Linux?
Buy Macs?
Have a mix of Operating Systems according to individual requirements?
Develop their own OS?

inquiring geek wants to know :)

You are 100% correct.

[everphilski]

You are right. It is. They have the right to do whatever they want with it. If they don't like the terms of dealing with a country they have the right to limit distribution in that country.

Of course this is /. ...

-everphilski-

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Catbeller]

"They have the right to do whatever they want with it."

NO. Monopolies do NOT have the right to do whatever they want with their monopoly control. That's why they're monopolies, that's why we regulate them more than competitive companies. They dictate terms and kill free markets. We LIKE free markets.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Delphiki]

Mandating what a monopoly does in no way encourages a free market. Rather, regulating monopolies is necessary only if we don't like the effects of the free market. Your post is so stupid that it boggles the mind. "No, they can't do whatever they want, because the market is free!" That's basically what you're saying right? Nice post.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[everphilski]

So they don't have the right to remove themselves from the market? You make no sense...

-everphilski-

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Catbeller]

Yup. If they don't want to sell in South Korea, then SC should be able to buy from OEM's, or just have product shipped from the states without involving MS.

But Microsoft won't let that happen, will it? They claim they can control distribution of their software down to the processor level.

So yes, it does make sense to control an abusive monopoly that refuses to have software RESOLD to a country they've decided to embargo. Last I heard, Microsoft wasn't a nation.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Irish_Samurai]

This is the second time I have seen you make this claim. Now here is the reality of the matter. Enforce it.

The theory may be sound, but if it cannot be practiced, its rhetoric.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Catbeller]

Nope. Monopolies destroy "free markets". That's what Adam Smith, no less, said. And he was right. If the result of a "free market" is the permanent elimination of a free market, then you've hit a recursive loop and have fallen off the flat earth.

And here's a thing: a nation doesn't maintain free markets to enable companies to do whatever they want. Free markets are maintained for the benefit of the common good, so that prices are kept sane, product can't be embargoes on personal whim, and we the people have a market responsive to our needs, NOT THE COMPANY'S.

Corporations are licensed legal fictions designed to remove personal liability from the exectives of same. They exist for our purposes - the market is not kept free for their benefit, but for ours.

Letting busineses grow into monopolies, unregulated, will just create a new feudalism which will in no way be a free market enabling a free people. The only people "free" in a world without business regulations will be the owners of the businesses.

We regulate monopolies so we can retain free markets. That's not just Adam Smith, it's the law.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[everphilski]

I never said that. If someone in korea buys a computer on eBay or another online retailer that is willing to ship to South Korea, i don't see where Microsoft is going to stop them. The trade comission only regulates *selling* copies of Microsoft Windows in South Korea, not a South Korean buying a computer from overseas.

You are missing the point. Korea's FTC is asking Microsoft to unbundle IM and media player. Microsoft says it can't do it quick enough. Its options are to stop selling or pay the price ($$$). Pulling out is probably the more fiscally responsible option.

-everphilski-

Re:You are 100% correct.

[Delphiki]

Oh, well, if you say Adam Smith backs you up, then you must be right. Government can't regulate something into freedom. With few exceptions, government is the only entity taking away freedom.

And here's a thing: a nation doesn't maintain free markets to enable companies to do whatever they want. Free markets are maintained for the benefit of the common good, so that prices are kept sane, product can't be embargoes on personal whim, and we the people have a market responsive to our needs, NOT THE COMPANY'S.

Here's another thing. Just because sane prices and so on are good things, does not mean that when you have them, you have a free market. Government regulation tries to promote these things, specifically by limiting the freedom of the market.

Also, your argument in this post is really, really stupid. Let's look at it. Wait... you don't actually, make an argument. Other than a more verbose "coorporations are bad, people are good, mmm'kay?"

the market is not kept free for their benefit, but for ours.

First of all, thanks for making this bold. It would really have helped emphasize your point, if you had one worth making. It doesn't matter who benefits from a free market, since I'm not arguing whether the market should be free, but rather whether regulation leads to freedom.

Corporations are licensed legal fictions

In what way are they fictional? There's no concrete thing or person which you can call a corporation. But then the same could be said of the government. Or a church (speaking of the organization, not the building). People depend on corporations for their livelihoods, so it's not like by going strictly pro-consumer and anti-business with your policies will do anyone any good because they'll all be unemployed.

The only people "free" in a world without business regulations will be the owners of the businesses.

Wow. That's uhh... an interesting way to look at things. Are you trying to assert that without business regulations, businesses would be able to force you to buy whatever they decided to sell you? That they would be able to enslave you to work for them? I don't really consider either of those things that need "business regulations" to establish their illegality, but whatever. Even if Microsoft is a monopoly, you don't have to buy their products. The same can be said of every other business I can think of.

That's not just Adam Smith, it's the law.

Well, unless you're saying that all laws are correct, that doesn't support your argument in the least.

By the way, your whole post seems to be in response to something other than my original post. You seem to be arguing against someone who said that monopolies shouldn't be regulated. Reread the parent post. I couldn't find anywhere in my original post that I said they should or should not be regulated.

That makes it all the more funny to see how vehemently you disagreed (with the point I wasn't trying to make). Based on your post, I picture you turning beat read and clenching your fists as you formulated your response. Ahhh, the hilarity.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[DigitlDud]

You'd be surprised how much big governments and big corporations go hand in hand. Government regulation, which always gets out of control, is what creates these not-so-free markets in the first place.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[mpe]

Corporations are licensed legal fictions designed to remove personal liability from the exectives of same.

IIRC the original idea was to encourage investment. By limiting the liability of those investing in a company to the value of their investment. So that if the think collapsed the investors would have worthless pieces of paper, but no liability for any debts.

Re:You are 100% correct.

[drsquare]

1. Microsoft aren't a monopoly. Ever heard of Macs, Linux or BeOS?

2. You can't force a company to do business somewhere.

Put the crack pipe down, this isn't the first furious rant you've made on this article. I can almost imagine the steam coming out of your ears as you type.

By definition a free market lets anyone do what they want. Regulation is not a free market.

Ambiguous

[rlp]

You could construe MS's statement as a threat. Or, it could be simply a caveat to investors i.e. - we have legal concerns that may force us to remove our product from Korea or delay Windows Vista deployment. MS has a legal obligation to warn investers of concerns that they know about that could effect the bottom line, and hence the stock price. To do otherwise invites class action suits.

Why not Europe ?

[MajorDick]

I always wondered why they didnt try this in Europe.

It would have been a HUGE hit to the EC to say, hey weve got a solution you dont get any MS products anymore PERIOD
While it may have been seen as a bluff , closing a few dozen MS office woulda scared the HELL out of the European Commision.

Right or Wrong there is NO WAY POSSIBLE the EC Could have explained it was doing good when no customer in Europe could upgrade, buy, etc. The people would have dissolved the damm comission.

Microsoft said the same thing back in 2000

[zero0w]

When the Justice Department and other anti-trust parties asked Microsoft to separate IE from the OS, Microsoft said the same thing on withdrawing Windows 98/2000 running out there. Well, back then Desktop Linux wasn't ready to challenge it (remember, OpenOffice.org and Mozilla/Firefox didn't reach 1.0 until 2002).

Now, Microsoft wants to pull the same feat again; should Korean government back down? Hmm, tough call. But if I were to make IT procurement decision for Korean government, it should be a sign that they should NOT upgrade to Windows Vista and instead forming a task force to strengthen desktop Linux development. No government should be prey to a mega-corporation of this type of blackmail. They are already striving to support Firefox/W3C standard in all government websites, maybe it's time to consider go further than that.

Re:Oh, that's fine! That's fine!

[Anonymous Coward]

How do we get MS to withdraw from the US market? :)

Now all we need is...

[JustNiz]

to make Microsoft withdraw from the rest of the world too...

Re:Good strategy -- No, BRILLIANT

[griffjon]

I applaud Microsoft's hard stance on this, and hope that they withdraw all support and future sales of MS products to S. Korea, a powerhouse of a tech economy that's surprised pretty much the entire world in it's post-Korean War explosion into the high-tech scene.

This could be the best thing to happen to the OSS world since Mr. Torvalds and RMS began collaborating on some projects...

Apt Comment by PJ on Groklaw

[lildogie]

So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts. Now do you understand why the government there wants to rely only on open standards and open formats for digital documents?

from MS Threatens S. Korea & "Just Say No to Microsoft

Re:Apt Comment by PJ on Groklaw

[petermgreen]

sure they could, the formatting may be a little screwed up but afaict that can apply just as much between different versions of office as between office and openoffice.

indeed i belive some people keep openoffice installed just to read broken ms office documents that crash ms office.

China

[Xibby]

So South Korea will just have to get its Microsoft products from China. If Microsoft went through with such a threat, there would be a huge increase in software piracy in South Korea, and then MS would have to resort to tactics such as drastically reducing the cost of Microsoft software in the South Korean market to draw people away from the pirated software. I don't see how this threat is benefiting Microsoft at all. It doesn't seem to help with their case any. Obviously a ruling that Microsoft would have to separate Messenger and Media Player from the OS would cause a delay in new versions, but that's a part of doing business internationally.

Why Monopolies are Regulated, Part 4,209:

[Catbeller]

A monopoly corporation can dictate terms to an entire nation, demanding to be exempt from their laws. Let them do what they want, or they cripple South Korea. Who will stop them?

How Bush fucked us over, #34,451: appointing industry lobby lawyers to the Justice Department who simply ignored the findings of the courts, letting Microsoft go unmolested and whole at the beginning of this numskull's reign. The world will be paying for that for another decade.

Go Linux. It's the pinhole of sunlight you sight at the top of the rubble blocking the collapsed mineshaft entrance. We might make it out of here...

Let them withdraw.

[antdude]

I would like to see other OS used there. I know games are popular over there, but this might help make gaming popular.

Isn't South Korea one of the most pirated countries?

Re:Oh, that's fine! That's fine!

[MyHair]

(interrupting) Unh-unh, screw you, home. (with appropriate gestures)

We all know

[caffeinatedOnline]

Microsoft is going to pull out. They are like the teenager in the back seat of the car at a drive-in, enjoying the sensation of screwing until it's too late.

overheard

[BushCheney08]

Overheard coming from a closed room high atop a building in Redmond, WA: "Kekekekeke..."

Excellent! How can we get this elsewhere !

[Tetard]

This is great! Please repeat in Europe and North America, thank you Microsoft!

But what about?

[jkind]

My question is, what is Microsoft's policy on Iran ?
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?su bchannel_id=52&story_id=24881&name=EU+Big+Three+to +consult+on+Ahmadinejad+remarks

AFAIK

[hummassa]

StarCraft runs pretty well under cedega (faster than under Windows for some graphics device configurations).

Re:Oh, that's fine! That's fine!

[harley_frog]

Steve Ballmer is Eric Cartman's father?!?!

Hah, super!

[emagery]

Let's look at S.Korea and software antitrust in the past; Electronic Arts uses its media murder machine to attempt to block some south korean game development competition in the USoA. Reaction: They turn around and make a greater effort to sell to their own people. Result: Spawning one of the single largest gaming markets in the world, making the rebuffed company very successful. Hmm! I wonder if MS trying to pull the same retarded move will result in a significant boost for linux and/or an explosion of games designed to run on linux? Woosh!

Why is windows assumed a right?

[ipl me asap]

It's an OS. If they want to quit selling it because people are suing them and they can't make enough money in that arena to warrant fighting the lawsuits, then they should be able to quit selling it. You act as if an OS is some civil right or something.

Re:DOH!

[everphilski]

If you really believed what you said, why did you post as an AC?

As it has already been stated, these statements are made as part of regulatory filings. These are absolute worst case scenarios that probably won't happen, but must be made for full disclosure. They aren't strongarm tactics. Gah. Only a stuipid *insert-your-nationality-here* would troll as an AC

-everphilski-

How unlike a Mob operation

[grendelkhan]

Do what we say and no one gets hurt.

KEKEKE

[BJH]

Yeah right. You know how rampant piracy is there? I wouldn't be surprised to find that MS sells more copies of Windows in North Korea than they do in South Korea.

WINE

[mikeee]

Actually, it installs and runs fine under standard WINE. (Er, other than some bizarre painting bugs during multiplayer setup, but it's usable, and the game itself works perfectly...)

[mikeee is still waiting for Starcraft 2 and will buy it the day it appears. I don't care if the game mechanics are identical, pretty new 3D graphics would be sweet.]

Re:WINE

[freeweed]

Yeah. Just tried it the other night.

Sadly, it runs somewhat slower in Wine on my XP1800+/768MB ram than it did on my p200/32MB ram. Also, there are some annoying issues with the map.

I'd hate to play a fast-paced multiplayer game, or a 5 computer players vs me seigematch, but otherwise it plays perfectly.

Anyone know why it would be so slow for me? It shouldn't be a 3D issue for this particular game (I'm using the OSS ATI drivers for my Radeon 9000).

Re:Of course

[symbolic]

But there is also the matter of public opinion. Microsoft put itself in the limelight with its monopoly over the desktop, so it's something they'll just have to contend with. What makes this whole story funny is that there ARE alternatives.

PJ makes an excellent point on groklaw...

[Eric Damron]

This is EXACTLY why Massachusetts and ALL governments should insist on open formats for public records. It's not right that public records be held hostage!

What would happen if Microsoft's proprietary XML format was used and Microsoft told Massachusetts that if they didn't get their way they would stop selling Windows in that state? How would the public continue to access their own public records?

It amazes me that some people can't see this danger.

Read closely

[LaughingCoder]

"If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new versions in Korea," Microsoft said.

It's amazing to me how everyone in this forum is so very quick to point out how poorly MS is behaving ... taking their marbles and going home, acting like an 8-year old, etc. If you read the above quote you will see that all they said was that if South Korea requires a version of Windows uniquely for Korea (by virtue of the mix of "allowable" services the OS includes - the list of allowable features no doubt a function of whatever SKorean companies they are trying to protect), then MS would be forced to (temporarily) pull out of South Korea, since, as all of us software developers know, they can't just snap their fingers and have a customized version ready.

Re:Read closely

[1001011010110101]

as all of us software developers know, they can't just snap their fingers and have a customized version ready.

[cough] Bullshit [cough]
As we all users know, disabling and removing Windows messenger takes like 5 minutes.

Re:Read closely

[LaughingCoder]

Yeah, and magically the install CDs appear. You have to master new CDs and packaging, schedule production runs, yada yada. Don't be naive.

Re:Read closely

[1001011010110101]

Ok, install CD. How long can that take to Microsoft? A couple of days at most? There are oodles of third party install CDs made by a lot of people, that are not even on MS. If they say they must work a lot to do it its plain bullshit talking, an excuse in order to take over other markets by using their monopoly as leverage, like they do all the time. I saw one install CD that didn't even have media player, messenger, or the new luna look and feel (lookup barely naked windows). And that was third party.

Most of the bundled shit is only that, bundled external shit, and takes no effort to unbundle, until they make the effort to integrate stuff into the OS JUST to make it "harder" to unbundle (see: MSIE) in order to have an excuse.

The wisest solution

[zlogic]

Microsoft doesn't like all the anti-trust stuff arranged around them, right?
So Korea is anti-Microsoft (or neutral, but definetly not pro-Microsoft).
Well, allow them to go away if they don't like the rules. Microsoft will be happy, Korea will be happy (the beast got rid of itself).
If only Microsoft did this in ALL countries, we wouldn't have any Windows around!

Linux: Why Do People Switch To Linux?

[dbgeek]

Another reason

funny, they didn't threathen this in US or EU

[SmallFurryCreature]

Wonder why? Of course MS is just warning this might happen, it is not really a threath. And what if it was anyway? South Korea is a country. If it just said Fuck you MS and just handed out the MS software to all its citizens for free or even sold it and kept the money what could MS do?

American goverment is crazy but crazy enough to start a war for a companies sake? Or should that be another war?

Sure they could start a trade war but the US needs the rest of the world more then the rest of the world needs the US.

These things are always a bit of a showdown, who has the bigger balls. For a long time MS has had the biggest but in the last few years a lot has changed. US goverment itself is more and more looking at other OSes to supply its needs. Pentagon using Linux for its future soldier project, NSA with their own linux code available as opensource, some local goverments going to openformats etc etc.

I would be much suprises if any hostile move by MS would result in anything else then more countries and companies reconsidering their reliance on MS. Isn't korea part of the asian countries attempts to improve linux already? Then again MS shooting itself in the foot would hardly be a first.

Could be good for Linux Games

[sirmikester]

When I read the story, I immediately thought that having microsoft withdraw windows from s. Korea might be a very good thing for linux games and applications in general. If the s. Korean market moves to alternative platforms, developers such as Blizzard, EA, Activision will have to port their games to them in order to continue selling to the massive gaming market. In addition, application vendors will also see this benefit. So I hope that this isn't just a hollow threat...

joke?:

[stewwy]

North Korea = repressive dictatorship
South Korea = windowless freedom

I KNOW there is a joke in there somewhere, but I'm dammed If I can find it

Well, for now...

[ILikeRed]

But how are you going to put on security updates? How do you reinstall XP if Microsoft refuses to authenticate your copy? What will happen in the future when Microsoft stops selling software and only "rents" it?

You are free to get parts and service for your Ford from anybody, but you lack even those basic freedoms with Microsoft's software. Your car analogy is falling apart.

Re:Well, for now...

[xs650]

You are free to get parts and service for your Ford from anybody, but you lack even those basic freedoms with Microsoft's software. Your car analogy is falling apart.

Fords do that.

Go ahead, monkey boy, make my day

[HangingChad]

Basically, Microsoft is threatening to take their marbles and go home if they don't get the ruling they want.

It will be really interesting to see who blinks first. This has wider implications than just Windows, this is a test case for how much the rest of the world respects our brain share products. They make things, solid tangible things, we have up to 80% of our value in brain share products. Solid things have a certain intrinsic value, now we get to find out the value of our brain share economy. What's stopping Korea from saying, "Okay, would you like to see our new version of Kia WIndows? We're quite proud of it." The same thing goes for drug patents and other over-priced software products.

It's also interesting to see MSFT threatening a trade war with a foreign country. A country that the US owes a LOT of money. Korea and China buy a whole lot of the national debt we're using to fight the folly in Iraq and pay for the natural disaster rebuilding. We're trillions of dollars in debt and Japan, Korea and China own the bulk of those markers.

This is going to be really interesting. MSFT may win this one, I imagine there will be a lot of diplomatic weasels working in the background. It really depends on whether Korea thinks it's worth pushing.

But the hand writing on the wall is saying the day will come when some American company like MSFT is going to start flexin' and that foreign power is going to tell them to go stuff. And the US government isn't going to come to the rescue because of the very certain knowledge that it's no longer a guarantee that we could win a trade war, especially with countries that make everything we now depend on.

Economic Pearl Harbor is going to happen, it's just a matter of when.

Micro$oft I'm Sorry but It's Too Late

[cliffomally]

Did Micro$oft already provide the korean's with the source code to winblows? I thought I read that a while back. Down With Micro$oft in Every Market... not just korea

MS can always retract this statement

[deadline]

I beleive this statement was made by a low level intern in Seoul.

Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Public

[Confessed Geek]

You can't play hardball with an independent nation..

Tomrrows Headlines:
Korea declares all Microsoft IP, Software and Copywrites to be in the Korean Public Domain. All Microsoft Offices Nationalized and documents seized for "National Security"

Could this backfire?

[RoLi]

I have strong doubts wether this is a very smart strategy by Microsoft.

After all it shows to customers that Windows (and support, etc.) can disappear anytime without (much) warning.

I think many will evaluate alternatives because of this move.

Pulling Out

[Anonymous Coward]

Pulling out is only 81% effective

Microsoft Threatens To Withdraw Windows in S.Kore

[jbr439]

Is that a threat or a promise?

Great point made over at Groklaw

[It doesn't come easy]

PJ made a very good point over at Groklaw. Consider: If you are the South Korean government, and you have historical documents written in Word, Excel, etc., and you play by the rules (i.e. you honor Microsoft's copyright, you buy Windows licenses for all your systems, etc.), and all of a sudden you cannot buy a new copy of Windows legally, what do you do? Keep running the old copies and never upgrade from then on?

This is exactly the problem with proprietary file formats. I would say that Microsoft's statement is destined to show up in a large number of conversations about OpenDocument and why it's the right thing to do...

Mod parent insightful!

[Spy der Mann]

Because In Korea, young people are starting to use Linux + OpenOffice.org!

New Reef found in South China Sea

[FishandChips]

Scientists around the world went on alert Friday after photographs from a weather satellite showed the appearance of a gigantic and hitherto unknown coral reef in the South China Sea.

A scientist commented: "This is one of the greatest discoveries of all time, perhaps even the site of the fabled classical city of Atlantis. You can imagine our excitement - technical analysis of the reef showes that it is made up of millions upons millions of silver-coloured, platter-shaped objects perhaps deposited there by an alien civilization. Rudimentary textual analysis of inscriptions on the platters suggests an association between the phonemes ''Mi', 'Win', 'For', 'Sou', 'Kor' but as yet no one has been able to decipher their precise meaning. We think they might refer to an ancient ruler or despot who chose to be buried at sea with his treasure."

Yes and no

[jd]

They can sell it where they wish, but under the doctorine of first sale, they have no business restricting who OEMs can deal with, or restricting where a user can register from. Also, there are limitations on what restrictions you can impose on a sale. If you put a house up for sale, for example, and a buyer meets all the requirements and price, you can't back out of the sale if you decide you don't like the buyer. That would NOT be acceptable. I don't know if Microsoft's restricting sales to South Korea would fall under this category, if they sold a product and THEN found the buyer to be from there. IANAL.

Having said all that, what exactly would South Korea lose from such a threat being carried out, anyway?

Re:Yes and no

[mikefe]

Having said all that, what exactly would South Korea lose from such a threat being carried out, anyway?

From what I see; Any and all right to keep sueing Microsoft. It would just be imported from another 3rd party.

If this actually comes to pass:

[Hosiah]

If you thought Johnny Cochran could name his price after the OJ trail, that'll be nothing compared to the demand for South Korean anti-trust lawyers. I'd sponsor one to the States right now, if I could.

Then why keep making Microsoft-centric sites?

[xclay]

It's interesting to see that one of the major Internet portal companies has brought up this issue because most of Korean sites are built around Microsoft's Internet Explorer rather than other browsers which are more in agreement with Internet standards.

Linux isn't Microsoft's only threat...

[Spy der Mann]

Withdrawal doesn't work. Some little windows will get out and soon you will have lots of illegitimate windows running around.

They don't have to be illegitimate. Just compatible.

In other news

[WebHikerOriginal]

Microsoft later regretfully attributes the statement to a lowly-management executive who was ill-qualified to make such decisions....

Europe too! Please!

[Paul Bristow]

Dear Mr Balmer, We at the European Commission are dismayed to see that despite many years of negotiation and our continuing discussions you are still treating other regions/customers better than the European Union. We insist that you treat the European Union in the same way as South Korea and withdraw Windows from sale here too. We cannot afford to give our Korean competitors an advantage like this in the world economy. Withdrawing Windows from sale would give an enourmous boost to software jobs inside Europe, especially in the fast-growing and SME-friendly open source arena. Yours sincerely, THe European Commission

Re:Europe too! Please!

[pussylips]

Meow

HUGE Opportunity

[nightsweat]

IBM and Novell and Red Hat should be in South Korea now en masse offering huge deals on hardware, software, and services. They could completley capture one of the most dynamic economies in the world for Linux.

Selling point one - if we take our marbles and go home - it doesn't matter! There are others who can support you on OSS.

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[Landaras]

Korea declares all Microsoft IP, Software and Copywrites to be in the Korean Public Domain.

Diclaimer: IANAL, but I am a law student.

As much as that (semi-humorous) thought would warm my heart, South Korea is a member of the World Trade Organization, which requires signing the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights ("TRIPs"), which incorporates the Berne Convention by reference.

What does this mean? It means that South Korea is obligated to recognize foreign copyrights, and stripping that protection for (arguably valid) nationalist reasons would almost certainly be in violation of international law. I haven't had a chance to fully and formally study the documents in question, but I would be shocked if there would be no recourse by the WTO.

- Neil Wehneman

P.S. Berne is a major impediment to full and free reform of copyright on a national level, as it mandates signatory countries to grant at least a copyright term of life of the author plus fifty years.

WRT the previous article

[fireman sam]

If the withdraw happens, the people of South Korea will be able to honestly say that "I switched to Linux because Microsoft forced me to."

"Linux, we won't become a monopoly then pull the rug from under your feet (or the OS from under your apps)"

The next day...

[temojen]

Microsoft announces that they have invented Nuclear Weapons.

Re:The next day...

[sessamoid]

You'd think that with the recent Sid Meier interview, more people would get the Civilization reference.

Re:The next day...

[mpe]

Microsoft announces that they have invented Nuclear Weapons.

Will they have an interface called "My WMDs" though?

Re:The next day...

[ultranova]

Microsoft announces that they have invented Nuclear Weapons.

Will they have an interface called "My WMDs" though?

No, because they already have an interface for causing massive destruction to your own machine and several others. It's called "Internet Explorer".

South Korea taking a stand against monopolies?

[bombadier_beetle]

That's a good one. South Korea may be taking a convenient stand against foreign monopolies, but somehow all that antitrust fervor never seems to apply to domestic companies and chaebol.

I REALLY don't think THEY'RE using Windows.

[crovira]

Why would an absolute dictator surrender his systems to a blue or red screen of death? Why would he put up with the viri and other stuff?

In a battle between Kim and Gates, Kim would win because lawyer aren't bullet proof.

Besides, North Korea is friggin' broke. They can't afford Windows. They CAN afford Linux. (That would force them to open their society a bit. Eventualy, maybe the GPL can get some traction in there.)

Re:I REALLY don't think THEY'RE using Windows.

[Shakrai]

That sound is the joke going right over your head and hitting the backstop behind you.

Courtesy of linkbunnies

[Jeff Carr]

You'll find a better article of it right here...here

A white ball of death.

[crovira]

I don't think so. Microsoft's not into that kind of hardware.

Did you ever see the sign in bars?

[melted]

"We reserve the right to deny service to anyone". This is exactly what's happening. MS doesn't _have_ to sell them software.

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It means that South Korea is obligated to recognize foreign copyrights, and stripping that protection for (arguably valid) nationalist reasons would almost certainly be in violation of international law.

The Berne Convention only requires a minimum copyright length and that countries treat foreign copyrights the same as they do their own. If Korean law allows or can be changed to allow the confiscation rights from abusive monopolies there is no conflict. For that matter, the Korean courts can just declare the intellectual property to be the fine MS must pay. In either case, Korea is unlikely to be reprimanded by the WTO since they are dealing with a criminal in the first place and an abuse monopoly that has already been found guilty in the US and EU court systems. I disagree that this would be a problem for them, but I'm no expert on international trade law.

Terrorism?

[Belial6]

Just to stir the pot....Couldn't this be considered terrism by the Korean government? It seems that threatening to cut off part of the national infrestructure should be considered terrorism. Do the terrorism laws, or copyright laws take presidence on an international level?

Another Shot Heard Around the World!

[TheZorch]

What we have here is a multi-billion dollar corporation using "playground" tactics in a high-stakes game of wills with one of the richest Southeast Asian countries in the world. To sum it all up Microsoft's attitude towards all of this is "pathetic". Pulling out of S. Korea would create "a shot heard around the world" that would have far reaching effects. It would set a precedent that other nations could easily follow. Pulling Windows off the shelves in S. Korea will not hurt S. Korea, it will make things difficult for a while, but it would not hurt that country in the slightest. It would set up an environment where alternatives to Microsoft products would have a firmer foothold; products like Linux and Apple's Macintosh offerings. If MS returned to S. Korea after a long duration it would be harder for them to reestablish the amount of market control they had before. In fact it literally be imposible for them regain their former market share in S. Korea if this happens. Like other posters here have said, MS is well within its right to sell or not to sell their product in S. Korea, but in order to do business in S. Korea they must obey the laws of S. Korea. Just because they are "Microsoft" does automaically give them a license to ignore the laws while everyone else has to follow them. What MS wants S. Korea to do is make an exception for them where their anti-trust laws are concerned so they can keep doing whatever they want to do. I can tell you now that it will not happen, no country in thw worl, no self-respecting country, will allow a corporation bully them into ignoring the dictates of the law. It absolutely will not happen, and S. Korea can't afford to let it happen. Basically its like this... MS leaving S. Korea = Biggest Mistake in History and/or S. Korea bowing to Microsoft = Worst Mistake in History

Interesting

[javamann]

Interesting the article under this one is 'Why people as switching to Linux'

-Pete

The door....

[Rolan]

Don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out. Asia already has a high penetration of Linux, if Microsoft leaves....all the better for Linux.

M$ threatened this in 2002

[eo]

Gates threatened to pull Windows off the market in 2002: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,95904,00 .asp

Wow Microsoft just gave birth...

[HerculesMO]

To a whole new generation of Linux programmers and tinkerers right in Korea! And with their IT infrastructure so far ahead...

Maybe it's not a good idea :)

what's funny is

[waspleg]

gates knows this, all he talked about in his first book (the only one i've read, The Road Ahead) was upward and downward spirals in business basically saying if you weren't expanding you were declining and that stagnation was death.

Not just that

[cyberformer]

Microsoft is completely dependent on the government to maintain its monopoly. That's what copyright is: a limited monopoly granted by the government.

The U.S. government isn't likely to repeal Microsoft's copyright, of course. But other countries might. And a government can do a lot more than just switch to Linux: It could seize all the company's assets in its territory, or release Windows code into the public domain, or hand all MS's copyrights over to a native software company.

South Korea is one of the world's most technologically-advanced countries, leading in stuff like 3G wireless and fiber-to-the-home. It's not a market that a company like Microsoft would want to abandon.

Delayed?

[fractaloon]

...or delay offering new versions in Korea.

So what? South Korea will have to wait for what? The release of Longhorn? It's not like they aren't already making everybody wait.

Re:Good strategy -- No, BRILLIANT

[PReDiToR]

Wouldn't it be nice if we all wrote to Bill and told him that we are running pirate copies too? He might stop selling it over here!

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[argStyopa]

I have to say I love it when Thomas Hobbes totally pwns Hugo Grotius.

Leviathan FTW!

And your point is ?

[planetfinder]

MS also has the right to take careful aim and blow thier own foot off.
I really hope that it comes to that. Almost every nation on the face of the earth
will take note and resolve that their future will not be bound to the whim
of a US company run by a petulant child. It will take a while
but you may mark my word, almost every nation on earth (except perhaps the US)
will eventually get around to explaining things to Microsoft in a universal
language exactly who it is that runs their country.
It has already started to happen and everytime MS
pulls this mobster style "protection" scam it accelarates the process.

Yeah, they do that on their own

[chadseld]

I use to drive a taurus.

You don't understand what free market means

[geekee]

"They are a monopoly, and monopolies are regulated for JUST THIS REASON. Microsoft is demanding that legal investigations into their anticompetitive actions be halted, or they will cripple South Korea by refusing to sell them product. That is the CLASSIC REASON why monopolies are anti-free market!

NO. THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHERE THERE PRODUCT IS SOLD. THEY ARE AN ABUSIVE MONOPOLY. They've lost the right. That's why we r-e-g-u-l-a-t-e them, even if Bush's government won't touch them because they hate monopoly regulations."

Free market means free trade. When a govt. imposes antitrust regualtions, it is a restriction on the free trade. Hence, a free market no longer exists. In a free market, Microsft has the right to offer their product at any price they choose, and consumers have the right to accept, reject, or bargain for a better price. When a govt. threatens physical force, it disrupts a free market. antitrust legislation is anti-free market.

Re:You don't understand what free market means

[Flower]

This isn't a free market and hasn't been a free market for quite some time since lassie faire economics essentially failed. As with most other constructs - like socialism, democracy, capitalism, on-line gaming etc. - it looks good on paper but once it hits the real world it needs tweaking to stop abuse - Stalinism, tyrrany of the majority, monopolies and anti-consumer practices, selling high powered items on EBay, etc..

Checks and balances are not a bad thing.

Re:You don't understand what free market means

[jp10558]

And this is a real good example why free-markets don't work. And why the best economies are mixed, rather than any one extreme.

Cue South Park reference...

[Carnage Pants]

"Screw you guys... I'm going home."

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[spyfrog]

Are you serious?
You obviously don't know how WTO works - the big company always win over the nation.
WTO is for the corporations, not the nations. South Korea wouldn't stand a chance.

So has china....

[Danathar]

So has China, but they still pirate it there....

So...

[Anita Coney]

... how in the fuck does S. Korea get so damn lucky? What? Leaders with backbones?! What's that?!

Sounds Google familiar....

[highspl]

Wow. Microsoft is copying Google. http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/05/technology/google_ cnet/

Idea

[Saberwind]

Microsoft Threatens To Withdraw Windows in S.Korea

If we ask nicely, do you think we can get them to threaten to withdraw Windows from the United States?

No.

[Create an Account]

When firms become large enough to wield monopoly power, they become much larger threats to free-market economics than anti-trust regulation. There is NOTHING free-market about an industry dominated by a monopoly. Market constraints come from the monopoly rather than the gov't, but that does not mean they are not constraints.

Anti-trust regulations (if well administered) make markets slightly less free overall, but they remain MOSTLY free. This is an attempt to preserve as much freedom in the marketplace as possible.

MOSTLY free is better than NOT-AT-ALL free.

If you regard free-market as a binary condition, then a more accurate statement is that market freedom is inherently unstable, eventually requiring regulation to prevent descent into abusive monopolistic environments. As such, free markets would be a poor standard by which to judge an economic environment because it would describe only immaturity of the market. Gauging market freedom on a continuum is a much more useful way to consider its effects on the market participants.

Good! Mircosoft is doing them a favor...

[rmckeethen]

Having woken up this morning to find that the Windows 2003 server which runs email, web and a few other things for my domain just fucked-up *again*, I'm not exactly thrilled with the boys from Redmond at this moment. Frankly, I'm tired of Microsoft's shitty-ass software and a host support documents that, most times, seem to be written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Sure, Linux has its share of problems, but I have yet to see just one FUBARed file fuck-up an entire Linux server. Today, it looks like that's exactly what happened with my Windows 2003 box. Thanks Microsoft, for all the love.

As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft can go fuck themselves for the years of sub-par software and headaches they've given me. This mornings fiasco is just the latest in a long string of failures for Bill and company to get a god-dammed clue. No, I don't want DRM, no, I don't want my box rooted 5 minutes after I connect it to the Internet and I don't want any of the crap you guys seem so happy to shove down my throat. I just want an OS that works, reliably, without problem after problem after problem.

If I were in South Korea, I'd be celebrating now. No more Microsoft? Great! Now we can go get something useful done, instead of having to babysit a yet another sick Microsoft server. Freedom from Redmond? It's like blessing from on high.

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[mpe]

There is no such thing as international law. I think the recent US actions in Iraq and guantanamo has proved that once and for all. If you have the will and the guns to back them up with then you do whatever you want.
In this case I don't think that even Bush is willing to wage war in South Korea so they could do it.

That might be the quickest way to get a united Korea though. "Samsung nukes Microsoft" would be an interesting headline too.

Huh?

[misleb]

How does a company "withdraw" from a country? Isn't it the retail outlets who decide what they sell and to whom? Couldn't someone in S. Korea simply order online overseas? That is probably what they do anyway...

-matthew

Open Document Format looking better and better...

[Eric Damron]

Think what this action does for Massachusetts' case for the use of open standards in regards to public records. Microsoft just proved that Massachusetts is right to be concerned over its sovereignty.

Now if only the world would PLEASE connect the dots.

Re:DOH!

[andrelix]

AC, sorry man, but I did not post anonymously. but besides that, why would M$ continue in a market that is constantly pirating their software. If it is a losing proposition, why bother? I am a small business owner with a family, I currently have a tough decision on weather we should pull the plug on the business (it is a side business and not my primary source of income). I have to weight all the costs and benefits and future gain posibilities to make this decision. Why should it be any different for Bill and gang! Of course they are not going to pull the plug, but at the same time they have every right to do what is best for the company, the stockholders, etc. As evil as Microsoft is seen, at least they are not Enron!!!

Widespread piracy is the obvious consequence

[Jdodge99]

If people want to run windows (for whatever reason) but can't buy it -- how many people think they won't simply pirate it then?

Re:Widespread piracy is the obvious consequence

[khann80]

This is exactly my thought. If Microsoft doesn't want to sell the product there then the government will not go through any trouble to combat the widespread piracy that will happen. Why would not buying something that isn't sold be illegal?

Good

[Trip Ericson]

Now maybe some Korean companies (such as DVICO) will make Linux drivers for their products.

Internet cafés - Linux would be PERFECT there

[toby]

no text

Way to go S. Korea !!!!

[ebtebee]

Finally.... S. Korea will be OPEN and free..... --END-- hahahaa.... LAUGH it's funny

None of the above

[bluGill]

Actually this is in an investor relations page. Bill Gates can go to jail if there is any worst case scenario they know of that they don't tell investors, and that happens.

Reports like this are often filled with doom and gloom about the future. These things rarely happen, but they could.

Irony

[uisqebaugh]

Right after this article, the next article is entitled, "Linux: why people switch to Linux." 'Nuff said.

Re: internet cafes

[FlippyTheSkillsaw]

Well, if Microsoft pulls out of South Korea (which it won't), I'm sure those internet cafes will be really worried about keeping up their licenses.

The real question is what percentage of those internet cafe computers are legitimately licensed now.

Secret bootloader

[tepples]

But it runs on the Playstation probably is.. Its also a huge market for games, so this might make people write/port their games to non-Microsoft operation systems..

Except for those developers of niche or casual games who can afford the licensing cost for Windows (primarily a bunch of high-end PCs loaded with Windows and MS Visual Studio) but can't get certified by the console divisions of Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo, because the licensed publishers tend to prefer cash cows to risky niche titles (Katamari series notwithstanding). Or were you talking about replacing Wintel boxes in homes and cafes with Apple computers running Mac OS X Tiger Edition?

And watch South Korean ©s disappear too

[tepples]

"All copyrights held by Microsoft, past, present and future, are now to released to the public domain."

Such an action might, under the Berne Convention, give other countries just cause to reciprocally derecognize copyrights held by citizens of the Republic of Korea.

Re:And watch South Korean ©s disappear too

[SirPavlova]

Couldn't they administer it as punishment for shirking responsibility after found guilty of anti-trust (i.e. for pulling out instead of removing WMP or whatever it is this time)? Then it's not arbitrary, & would be undone if they complied with whatever they were told to do. Also it seems that reciprocality would require any derecognition of Korean copyrights to be similarly punishment for not complying in court.

On a side note, though I understand how these treaties work (basically do what we say or else - i.e achieve goals via inducing fear - ring a bell?), I don't understand why people treat them as being intrinsically more important than the will of the people (in any given nation).

Re:And watch South Korean ©s disappear too

[bhiestand]

Such an action might, under the Berne Convention, give other countries just cause to reciprocally derecognize copyrights held by citizens of the Republic of Korea.

So uhh, we're giving them Windows, and they're giving us kimchi? I'm not sure which of us is getting screwed, but it doesn't seem like anyone is getting a good deal in this situation.

Wait... perhaps if America promises to keep its Windows out of Korea, Korea will promise to keep its kimchi out of America? I'd vote for that.

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[mikiN]

Leviathan ...

TRIGGER: 0x3efc3a0e
Process started
_

Less Of a Problem Than You Think

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I wonder what percentage of the south korean economy is made up of those internet cafes. Switching OS's won't really be fun for them (if it comes to that.).

Actually most problems internet cafes have is quazi slick users playing around with the windows software and of course bugs in IE.

Internet Cafes are essentially now all about using Web interfaces. Thus, switching to Linux with the Redmond KDE skin makes a lot of sense.

"Buy this magazine or we WON'T shoot this dog"

[Sloppy]

Just doesn't have quite the same ring.

Actually, this is bad strategy

[WindBourne]

This will encourage game makers to shift to supporting a new desktop. It might be Apple, but I suspect that it will be Linux. If that happens, well.... MS may come to regret using its monopoly as a form of abuse.

I don't know, how long before...

[WindBourne]

they all realize that they are being screwed by MS who is now wielding a very large club over their economy? I suspect that Japan and a few more will sue, but most will start down the path of Linux to play CYA.

Uh...

[KoshClassic]

' Basically, Microsoft is threatening to take their marbles and go home if they don't get the ruling they want.'

That would be a threat how, exactly?

Re:Korean Strategy: All Microsoft IP declared Publ

[mikiN]

T-220:12:42:12

Yeah, go for it MS.

[mindstrm]

Because that will just open up the door for someone else to import windows to S.Korea and support it instead.

It's a free market, microsoft's permission isn't required.

Re:Good! Mircosoft is doing them a favor...

[dba7db]

Couldn't agree more.
Some here suggest it will be a pain for some users in SK. And no doubt yes. But no pain, no gain right?

MS will never pull their trigger on this. But they've uttered their stupid line and now they've stirred a bunch of IT, teens, game players to move away from MS.

Thanks for the Groklaw link

[bezuwork's friend]

With respect to the Groklaw link, she is pushing a book on linux as an alternative, that there's life after M$.

My story - I know noone who uses Linux, and no place I use computers uses Linux. Nevertheless, hating M$, I have had a long desire to try it out.

Built a computer from parts, but was apprehensive to try Linux, had only dial up (NetZero for free) and so kept putting it off. Had a fire which destroyed the computer. A year or so later, bought more parts and built a new computer. Again with the apprehension, waited a year or two (yeah, I was stupid).

One day, I decided what the hell, used an Ubuntu disk I had gotten in the interim, and booted the computer. It was now running Ubuntu. Since it could also install, I tried that and a half hour later had it installed. It comes with Open Office, so there was a native Word like word processing program.

That's how easy it was - 1/2 hour of very little work, and I had a fully functioning computer with Linux, word processors, etc., the software all for free.

That computer is now the favorite for my whole family, from the kids to the adults.

Seems to me there is a very cost-effective solution to M$ - all people have to do is try it out.

The only reason I see to stay with M$ is if it is necessary for some reason - business depends on software that only runs on M$, etc. For the rest of us (the majority), I should say that M$'s dominion of the market will remain only so long as we are too lazy to try out alternatives.

Oh, I'm sure it's just an oversight...

[mpaque]

Oh, I'm sure it's just an oversight in a draft regulatory filing created by a newly hired employee who did not understand the company's legal obligations under the 2002 antitrust settlement.

It might not be a threat. It could be a promise...

oppportunity

[Psamtik]

well i know for a fact that s korea is huge pc gaming market. this might mean that game developers will have to develop for mac or linux more, which would make my switch that much sweeter.

Brilliance.

[supabeast!]

This must be the best idea for encouraging Windows piracy I've ever heard. All the software Microsoft sells is already available on the street for pennies in South Korea, those bootleg vendors will do even better if they don't have competition from legit software vendors.

management/engineering/line workers

[zogger]

Don't blame the line workers for bad engineering and even worse management decsions, even if rush limbaugh tells you to. They assemble the parts they get handed in the manner specified. THAT'S IT. They have zero say in the matter. If management wants to make crap and not compete, it's not the rank and files fault. If your IT boss/management tells you to code crap, not test, ship crap by such and such a date, well???? You follow orders, cash check, that's how it works... when they turn around and blame the coders, is it really their fault if they haven't been given the time and resources to code something good? Same with being a manufacturing drone, a drone is a drone, you follow orders.

With that said, I think the unions are missing the boat for a long time in not gong on strike to demand higher quality engineering. They go on strike for any other issues, there's no law per se saying they couldn't negotiate that as well. Radical idea, but it's possible. Go on strike, demand the same pay and benefits, ask for nothing new, no difference, but demand management cut their pay and design better products. That would be a HOOT! I know way way back when I was in the UAW I tried to push this idea, but this was during the horsepower wars and throw away cars era, no one cared about mileage or reliability, just horsepower. meh, old news.. Anyway, the labor costs of assembly are *the same*, whether it's crap part A or better part B going into crap designed car A or nice piece of work B.

    US tech can be very very good, look at all the various professional motorsports, there's some outstanding design and engineering there. Racing is sexy and pays well for the winners, hence, they get very good engineers and mechanics. Innovation just takes a couple of decades to filter back down to Detroit big three management, I mean, look how long they have insisted on using pushrod engines. Look how long it took them to adopt multiple valve per cylinder heads. and etc. That's 100% pure MANAGEMENT fault.

  And they would also have to pay their engineers MORE than what a first year rookie car lot salesman makes if they want to keep good people and make better cars. The auto industry in the US is a good parallel of the business climate in general, manage, study, re arrange the furniture,powerpoint, business junkets, power lunches, sell, market. Engineering and keeping quality help is way way WAY down the list of what is important to them, because of "this quarters profits" mentality. The stock market is *killing* business, if that makes some sense. It's nutz and getting worse. Ford is sort of starting to "get it", they have a pretty decent forward looking set of design goals and are embracing hybrids, etc NOW, finally. Took them way too long, but we'll see what happens. GM and daimler chrysler mercedes whatever they are called now, who knows. maybe.... I am more pessimistic on them long range. GM hasn't really made any money on cars in years I think, they make money on financing, paper pushing.

Re:management/engineering/line workers

[vinn01]

I totally agree.

I wish I had some mod points for you.

... going on strike to demand higher quality engineering.

That idea alone should be discussed more.

Re:management/engineering/line workers

[John Courtland]

Mildly offtopic, but OHC engines are not some magical super tech that is superior to OHV pushrod engines. Look at the LS1. That thing is a monster at 346cid, no one can touch it. Do some HCI work and that thing will drop down over 500HP to the wheels. Stock, they get about 28MPG on the highway. Pushrod engines also make more low end torque per unit displacement than an OHC engine. To make up for that, the OHC usually has a pretty steep final drive ratio (5:1, 4.1:1) Pushrod engines can make it to 10,000 RPM, you just have to install hearened materials and upraded valve springs to combat lifter pumpup. Also, I know that Ford has been making OHC engines since at least the 1960s, with their 427cid SOHC, so it's not "new" by any means. I do agree with the rest of your statement though. The bean counters fuck up the engineering at every turn and it's sad to see American companies with egg on their face, knowing they're fully cappable of so much more, but when you have accountants design cars, that's what you get.

Re:management/engineering/line workers

[zogger]

I was able to get a small pushrod engine to reliable run at 8 grand, but took some precise shop work. Was an old 1969 fiat engine. I worked my way down to less than a gram balance with the connecting rods and pistons. And the pistons were forged, the rods shot peened, had the headwork and valve action done by people who knew what they were doing, etc.

A friend of mine, who's dad was a vp at ford and pulled strings to get him one, had one of those 427 ford nascar SOHC engines, simply awesome. He stuck it in an old ratty comet, quite the street sleeper. It ran mid tens.

Re:management/engineering/line workers

[John Courtland]

Trickflow makes a 10,000 RPM capable Ford 302 crank, and Romac makes a 10,000 RPM capable Ford 302 harmonic balancer, those both being huge limitations to getting up to 10K RPM. Put a set of 351C heads on a 302 with those plus roller rocker arms, chromoly pushrods, and upgraded valvesprings/lifters/cam, and you basically have an old BOSS engine that revs like a Honda B18C5 with just under 3 times the displacement. Slap a pair of turbos on THAT, and there isn't much of anything short of a top fuel that will really run you down. ;)

Re:management/engineering/line workers

[zogger]

MEGA Boss! Alien Cobra!

There is certainly some amazing tech out there now. I would imagine that nanotech and materials science will be able to provide some more increases in what can be squeezed out of ICE engines.

BRING IT ON!

[Trogre]

Let's see them go through with this.

It will lead to two things:
1. Increase in FOSS adoption
2. Increase in piracy by people who still need/think they need windows. And once someone pirates windows it's just a small step to pirate MS Office. Net result: zero cash flow going back to Microsoft.

If you were an evil megalomaniacal convicted monopolist would you allow that to happen?

Re:Self evident Astroturf?

[Shelrem]

You criticize the parent post for poor reasoning, but you offer ad hominem attacks and a straw man.

The parent post simply asked questions about the morality of the decision, and as far as I can see, he or she has a perfectly valid point.

As far as business practices go, I don't know the details of the anti-trust rulings, but the South Korean market may simply not be big enough to justify complying with the ruling. If Microsoft has no intentions of complying with the ruling, but rather withdrawing from the market if this comes to pass, I see no reason for them not to announce the fact. It may affect the ruling, which is good for their business, and if it doesn't, well, good for South Korea for standing by its laws. That's what should happen.

If its an empty threat, and South Korea calls them on it, well, it'll affect their ability to negotiate with government agencies, but the reality of the situation is that if the anti-trust case goes through and they don't pull out of the market, you can bet on them reaching some sort of compermise, which I'm guessing is half the point of the threat in the first place.

Now, if the only point of the threat is to manipulate the legal system, that's certainly questionable, morally, but it's a very nuanced situation that deserves more discussion. I'm of the opinion personally that the moral questions lie with S. Korea about whether or not they should compermise their legal integrity in the face of an economic threat.

haha

[smash]

Please? Pretty please? Promise? :D

Linux is already right on the edge of being fit for everyday desktop use :D

It's already there if you want to give up being able to run *every* game perfectly - Transgaming is good, but its not 100% there yet.

I was running Linux exclusively (no dual boot) for 6 months (have been dual booting, etc for 9 years) - the only reasons I have Windows installed right now are Quake 4 (the linux installer is buggy at the moment and I couldn't get it to work on ubuntu) and Eve Online (which works on Linux, just very slow load times).

For regular content creation, etc - I already find it more productive than Windows.

For use in a corporate environment with AD it will require some work to migrate at the moment, but all it needs is somebody to create an easy to set up LDAP/Kerberos authentication package to replace AD with (it's already possible I believe, just not easy) and the reasons not to shift are becoming fairly few.

Web applications are where things are going - and in that area Linux is streets ahead. The things Linux is currently poor at (desktop apps, etc) are very quickly becoming either commodities, or irrelevant...

smash.

blizzard

[Khashishi]

So is blizzard gonna port starcraft to linux now?

Re:We put undies on their heads!!! OMFG!!!

[Johnny Mnemonic]

If it weren't for people like me you yellow cowards too afraid to risk anything - heck, afraid of life itself

I find it interesting that you are too cowardly to even use an assumed name for your post. If you believe the things you said sincerely, why do you refuse to have them associated with you?

No Worries!

[ChiefPilot]

M$ will require the North Korean Army to adopt Windows for Weapons Systems (the next release of Windows for Warships) and South Korean hackers will be able to stop them in their tracks...

SK and MMORPG Mania

[0xB00F]

Gaming is fairly big in SK also, somehow I think 'it runs on WINE' isn't going to fly.

A large number of SK (professional) gamers still play old multiplayer games like WarCraft and StarCraft which already run well under Wine or Cedega, so that won't be the problem. Their problem will be with newer MMORPG games like Ragnarok, R.O.S.E. Online and Mu Online. These games have quite a following not only in SK but in other South-east Asian countries as well. This is the reason I still have Windows on on partition. I have been waiting for a native Linux port of these games for a long time but it seems that the developers have neither the resources or the motivation to make the port. AFAIK, these games use SDK's that are Windows-only and their servers depend on MSSQL to run.

However, with MS pulling their off their shit from SK shelves, this should force these game developers to go cross-platform eventually. So, here's to hoping that MS get's the slap-in-the-face ruling and that they do indeed remove their entire product line from SK.

Switching OS's?

[phorm]

Why woudld they do that. If they have a copy of windows, a withdrawal from the market by MS isn't going to force them to throw out their existing copies. At most it would probably delay them from getting versions of the next MS Operating System, which wouldn't be immediately needed to play games and which would probably want to go through the post-release public testing MS is famous for anyhow.

Re:We put undies on their heads!!! OMFG!!!

[killjoe]

"And we smeared them with fake menstrual blood, and - get this - we actually went so far as to scare them with dogs! The utter, inhumane horror of it all!"

You also raped a few of them with lightsticks, beat 23 or so to death, let the dogs take chunks of flesh off of a couple of them too. That's just the ones we know of. But hey don't let the facts get in the way. There is no need to actually read the reports put out by the US army admiting to all of that. The army is just a bunch of pansy liberal fucks who are trying to make the US look bad.

"Cry me a fucking river, you limp-wristed, overly-sheltered, cowardly candy ass."

LOL Coming from an anoymous coward. Too pussy to even use a psydonym. Too lazy or stupid to sign up for a new name.

"And I mean that - those fuckers want to kill me and my family, I say we do unto them before they do unto us."

Nobody in Iraq wants to kill you, they just want you to stop killing them.

"But lucky for you, there's a helluva lot more people like me than there are of you in the good ole US of A."

What? You mean lazy, coward, republitard racists? I agree there are many people like you in the US of A.

"And shut the fuck up with that "We support our troops, too" crap. You do not. And drop the "You can't question my patriotism" dodge - it's not there to begin with."

Huh? Did anybody say that? I think you are hearing words in your head again. Oh by the way sending people off to die to secure oil wells is not supporting them.

"If it weren't for people like me you yellow cowards too afraid to risk anything "

BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Mr too scared to use a fake name calling somebody a coward. Fucking republitard.

"So fuck you and all the idiots who "think" like you."

As a liberal I respect your homosexuality. If you have a desire to fuck other males that's none of my business.

In other news...

[serutan]

Microsoft Threatens to Stimulate Bootleg Windows Market in South Korea.

quick show of hands: who thinks ...

[IchBinEinPenguin]

... that Microsoft is really stupid enough to do this?
Push the country with the most degrees per capita (I think I heard that somewhere once, that's close enought to being a fact for the 'net :-) towards OSS?
yeah... keep dreaming.

A win-win-win-lose situation

[Per Abrahamsen]

This can only be good for free software:

If the SK FTC gives in, they have demonstrated the power Microsoft wields by having a virtual monopoly. And politicians everywhere understand power, and will try to regain it. They would prefer software they control, but that is too expensive to develop. However, software nobody controls, that is free software, is a viable alternative.

If Microsoft gives in, presumably competititors in SK will benefit, including free software.

If neither part gives in, competititors in SK will benefit, including free software.

I guess some kind of compromise will be found which share the power between SK politicians and Microsoft, and keep the public out :-(