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PS3 Apparently A Computer
Rinzai writes to mention an article on Gamasutra, noting a statement by Ken Kutaragi where the CEO states that the PS3 is a computer, not a console. From the article: "He went on to outline a scenario where many parts of the PS3 were upgradeable, much more like a PC, noting: 'Since PS3 is a computer, there are no models but configurations', and continuing (though talking in the theoretical): 'I think it's okay to release a [extended PS3] configuration every year'. It's clear from the comments that Sony is indicating that it will be possible to upgrade hard drives and perhaps even other components easily."
'Luck with that one guys.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Consumers of gaming consoles buy consoles for gaming, not because it is a computer.
Even with the "extra" feature of being a computer, at the price it is, it will most probably sell very badly, if not fail.
Sorry Sony, you made a *serious* mistake. Remember that money is one of the most important things in this world, even if it comes and goes.
...so is my Abacus.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Its certainly priced like a computer, not a console.
So if the PS3 is basically a computer, why not get a computer?
A computer, huh? Sold! And here I was afriad my $600 machine was only gonna be able to play games.
Seriously, is there any distinction anymore? Does being easily upgradeable magically make it a "computer"? I still consider my original NES - having a processor, input interface, and the ability to read instructions on ROMs and provide output - "basically a computer".
This sounds more like a change in marketing strategy than anything else (compare "hey, the PS3 is twice the cost of these other consoles" to "hey, this PS3-computer-thingy is only half the cost of my desktop computer!") Either way, I wouldn't be pleased knowing that after shelling out $600 I will have the option to pay more next year to keep the thing updated.
Disclaimer: I'm a Nintendo fanboy and have never had any interest in PlayStation consoles.
Atari VCS: Atari, Spectravideo, and Perphial Visions Inc. all tried to create a keyboard for it. Only the Spectravideo keyboard made it to market. Only the Spectravision keyboard made it to market. It flopped.
Intellivision: Mattel promised from day 1 that the Intellivision would be able to be turned into a full computer by adding a special keyboard component. Unfortunately, the component proved too expensive to manufacture. When Mattel was finally forced to release the product due to an FTC fine, nearly every unit was returned as broken or defective. Mattel then shifted gears in a hurry and released the Entertainment Computer System, a quick hack produced by a secret project that was intended to get Mattel out of hot water. Predictably, it flopped in the market.
Odyssey 2: Magnavox actually integrated a keyboard into this console, but gave no thought to an OS, tape drive, or printer. There was a BASIC kit released for the European version, but otherwise this console's potential as a computer was sadly underutilized.
Coleco Adam: Coleco had the bright idea of creating a computer that could play Colecovision games. Consumers couldn't decide whether or not it was a game machine or a serious "home computer" system. Combined with its odd design (the power was routed through the printer) it flopped in the market.
Atari 5200: This actually WAS a computer packed into a game system case. Unsurprisingly, no peripheral components were produced to prevent competition with the Atari 400/800 systems.
Atari 7800: Again, a keyboard component was created, but never marketed. With Nintendo deciding NOT to ship the Famicom Floppy Disk Drive in America, Atari may have finally realized that trying to make a game console into a computer wasn't such a good idea.
PlayStation 2: Sony tries to make the PlayStation into a generic computer with a keyboard/mouse attachment, a harddrive, and a copy of Linux. Sony kills the product citing poor sales.
PlayStation 3: Sony tries to differentiate their console by claiming that "it's a computer". Welcome to the 1980s.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Then what does the PS3 offer that makes me want to replace my PC? A decent end computer will have way more useful software, better games, and is still more upgradable. Besides, I think this is just an excuse they're making up to cover for all the bad publicity they're getting from the $600 price tag.
Welcome to games.slashdot.org, where each day Zonk tenderly picks out the most embarrassing thing a Sony executive has said in the previous day, and the most positive piece of news about the XBox 360 he can find, and publishes them both.
For example in the last 24 hours we have learned that Microsoft employees are very excited about the new Shadowrun game; and that the PS3 is a "computer" rather than a "video game system", as opposed to the XBox 360, which isn't a computer at all.
Of course they're computers. Whether or not you can use them easily in a general purpose manner is another issue entirely. EG, my Linksys WRT54GL is a computer and can easily be used as a general purpose device by uploading 3rd party firmware such as OpenWRT. So can my Dreamcast. On the other hand, I can't do the same with my XBox 360 (at least until someone figures out how to run unsigned code). But they're all computers nonetheless.
Forgetting for the moment that all videogame consoles are computers...
What else could be upgraded besides the hard drive? I really doubt you'll be able to swap in a new CPU or GPU. Maybe RAM like you could upgrade on the N64. (though I have my doubts) Or, does he mean that new PS3s will be more powerful than the old ones and that the old ones won't be upgradable?
What would be the point of continuing to call it a PS3 then? People who bought a PS3 for $600 in 2006 would be homicidal if a "PS3" game was released a couple years down the line that couldn't be played (or maybe it could only be played at a low resolution/framerate) on their old PS3. People expect a game for a console to just work in that console.
Also, wasn't the PS2's official title "computer entertainment system"? Look how that worked out.
I play WoW on my PC.
Sony, can you offer a 'console' version of the PS3 that we can get cheaper?
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
"'I think it's okay to release a [extended PS3] configuration every year'. It's clear from the comments that Sony is indicating that it will be possible to upgrade hard drives and perhaps even other components easily."
Please note that nowhere does it state that the CONSUMER will be able to upgrade hard drives or other components easily. In fact, what they are implying is that they will release a different "upgraded-from-core" model every year. I would assume that one would have to buy the entire thing to get any upgraded components. After all, I don't think Joe Sixpack is going to be comfortable swapping out a hard drive on a PS3 any more than on a "real" computer.
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
There is no way that plan will pan out. There's a reason that people choose consoles over computers: they are a known, stable hardware platform which is easy for developers to target, and thus every game works reliably. The second you start allowing significantly different versions of the consoles to exist, you run into compatibility issues, users being unclear which version of the console a given game will work on, developers being unwilling to take advantage of the hardware in order to avoid alienating users, and a host of other issues.
Limited, carefully-controlled upgrades can succeed (e.g. memory expansion for N64), but so far has only worked when distributed as a pack-in in a popular game. Significant console upgrades (e.g. every upgrade ever released for the Genesis) have all failed in the marketplace, for the reasons described above.
Sony owned the market. The PS3 was a guaranteed success. A license to print money. And now they seem fixated on painting a target on their feet, merrily humming away, completely ignoring what their potential customers actually want. Nintendo could easily leverage this into a return to first place in the market, if they play their cards right.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
(Obligatory mention of "Toy Story-quality renders in realtime" claim for the PS2 here)
Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
Add more beads to upgrade it into a hexadecimal calculator?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Um, I thought the whole point of a console was to give everyone the same configuration so that developers can target a single stable platform without having to worry about configuration issues....
So, if it's a "computer", does that mean that they'll let me in to hack to my hearts content without any sort of encryption key BS? Or are they still going to try to lock me out of my own "computer"?
The only reason he's claiming its a computer is so it can skip some import duty in the UK and EC.
They tried the same stunt with the Playstation 2.
So now they are saying it's a Computer to explain the price. Ok I can understand that.
What I still can't understand is why they refuse to talk about the OS in it. if they plan for it to be a "Computer" then how are they going to pull it off with a closed OS?
I've only heard them say "It will come preinstalled with Linux!" well big woop there, I could sell PC's preinstalled with linux, doesn't mean people will want to buy it if they find out that Linux is completly locked down with me owning the master account and not telling them what it is so they can't install, update or view hardly anything. Oh and I could access their computer at any point in time I would like when they are connected to the internet.
,br> so far the only thing's I know about the OS are, It's Linux.
Not exactly something that makes me want to rush out and buy this "Computer", especially when doing a search for "Linux OS" returns about 4,560,000 results, and having tried to use linux on 5 seperate occasians I know there are atleast 10 different versions of a "Linux OS" with god knows how many more.
So far they have said it will be Linux and then showed off THEIR web browser (which makes me wonder if it will be possible to even install an alternate browser on this Linux) yet that is all.
So we are basically paying $600 (cause the $500 model is pointless) for a locked down, nonuseable "computer" with a Blu-Ray drive. wow, just makes me all giddy to get one (and I used to be someone who would be waiting in line (and i HATE waiting in lines) to get this thing, till they announced $600 as the price and hardly anything else about it after that).
They downgraded it! I thought it was meant to be a supercomputer...
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
...since just about anything the more expensive model offers could just be added later (like media readers).
However the balance that is missing is to note that Sony has also been smart enough to ship all models of a console with everything it needs to be a good gaming rig. If you took thier comments at face value you'd expect them to ship each PS3 with no HD and no Blu-Ray drive (or any other kind of drive) at all, and just let you buy what they liked.
They are just saying that if you want to take that further, you'll be able to add a media reader or keyboard/mouse (for example). That's good as far as I'm concerned as it might make FPS's on a console much more tolerable. I know the PS2 and XBox kind of supported that, but it didn't seem like a lot of games picked up on that support.
They may have a point, if you can browse the web and see emails and print things, might that not be enough of a computer for many people? WebTV and the like never caught on but with the higher resolution and generally larger screens HDTV's offer perhaps it has more of a chance now. And if that desktop is Linux - well, that's kind of cool.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
From Sony's past behavior with the PS2, it seems to me that the computer classification is not targeted at the end user, but rather, the bill collectors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1003076.stm
So, in other words... you can look at porn on it?
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
This is what illegal drugs will do to you. Just say no!
Am I the only one that gets troubled with a statement like this?
Pardon me but if you try to sell me a computer and told me that I'll want to upgrade any piece of it soon, I would be inclined to tell you you're crazy and buy a computer that doesn't needs an immediate upgrade. But then again I could be the one that's crazy. I also forsee a version problem of sorts. With multiple versions of the PS3 due to configuration it will only be a matter of time before something meant to work with the PS3 (software or hardware) will turn up an incompatibility with one of these configurations. PC's have that problem after all and that's what drives some of us to get software updates. I wonder how that would pan out on a PS3??
Oh and a last thing, I'll bet that these "upgrades" are not going to be cheap...
Oops, how did this get here?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
... to gaming on consoles in the first place was because I wouldn't have to upgrade every year! And now they want to switch it back? No thanks!
The "computer" aspects of PS3 will be just as useless as the PS2 Linux kit. Don't be suckered into thinking that Linux on PS3 is going to be any use. It only has 256MB of system RAM. What the hell are you going to do with 256MB on a "computer"??
You might want to ask Zaurus owners that same question, since they make do with far tighter constraints. There's plenty you can do with that much space, especially considering you get swap as well.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I know Sony has mentioned that they wanted the PS3 to have a longer shelf life but I don't see that happening unless the PS3 is a whole lot more powerfull that the 360. So my question is does this mean Sony wont make a PS4 and they'll just sell you new chips? I can't imagine any normal person wanting to swap in and out processors but I also can't imagine people just wanting to upgrade hard drives or ram. I suppose if it had TiVo function maybe one might a bigger hard drive.
Seriously, they even brought in a non-tech Scot. We have to remember that Sony's major profits come from Finance and Insurance - yes, you heard that right - and he's trying to sell you on Blu-Ray for films/movies, music, and games. From that perspective (non-tech), the PS3 is basically a computer with a Blu-Ray drive, as that's where his profits lie - in getting the market to reward Sony with market dominance over competing standards so that they get license fees for every movie, music, or game disc you buy.
Don't believe me? Check out Fortune magazine for an in-depth interview of the two head honchos at Sony. I'm basing part of this on the print edition of the Wall Street Journal as well.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Commdore 64 --- that is my rebuttal. Explanation. The commdore 64 was originally designed as a video game
machine, even the production model came with a cartridge slot. It was so successful that it killed the video
game market for the next two years. It sold 17 million units. People had no problem finding great games for it.
1) Its the hardware stupid.
2) Its also the software stupid
The Atari 7800 keyboard could have worked, it was a good product, it was just two years too late...
Atari had lousy management.
I manage to do lots of things with the 256MB of RAM in my computer. More is always nice but I really haven't run into a problem yet.
This poo is cold.
about 1 in 5 of these articles turn out to be anything more than misquotes, press releases out of context, rumors or just simple errors.
We get it, we get it already: Sony = Evil, the console is awful and if you buy it the CEO of Sony will come to your house and shit on your children. Enough already.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Was it yesterday that there was a post on slashdot about how the PS3 would be better than the X-box360 because "It would last longer because you wouldn't have to buy a bunch of expansions like a HD-DVD player"?s html
Sorry, it was the day before yesterday. Sorry.
http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/06/07/2041213.
So now, after claiming "Your PS3 will last, like forever, like as long as you want", they counter with "unless you want it to be better... And, probably, games a couple years down the line will require improved capabilities, so instead of that thing we said yesterday, not that thing we said yesterday. LOL! ^_^ Fewled juu!"
Wow, I wasn't considering buying a PS3 before I read this article, but now I'm considering... super not buying a PS3.
I'm a Computer!!
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
I assume it is only a computer as long as you don't actually try to play games better, using a keyboard and mouse? For the love of god, when do I get to play games on a console where I can shoot straight?
Actually, if you count the Nintendo DS as a console, Metroid Prime has excellent controls, but so far it is the only console FPS that is actually playable. I don't care what the nubbin' tweakin' fanboys say.
I don't understand why everyone hates the ps3 so much, if you dont want to spend the $600, then don't. But your petty whining about sony's supposed marketing mistakes isn't going to convince me not to shell out for something that could easily be considered a supercomputer. Why am I dishing out all that cash? Because I want to run linux on it, I want to learn the new arch. I want to utilize its processing power. yeah yeah ps2 ran linux, but it also didnt come with it preinstalled out of the box on a harddrive. Does no one see the potential that the cell processor has? Or is everyone still pissed off about the DRM cd's and the virus problem that caused months back. Hell I run linux, it didn't effect me, so I could care less. Ever since day 1 I've been telling everyone that I was going to buy a ps3 to use it as a pc, this only substantiates my claims.
- Aetheral Research -
Yes, it's a computer in the sense that many electronic devices are computers. But using it as a generic, programmable tool may be less than intuitive. Frankly, Sony's destroying the one benefit a console ever had: the hardware was standardized. You didn't need to run though installs, and just about anyone could put in a game in play it with absolutely no issues. How long until a game is released that has a "glitch" and doesn't work with some of the older generation PS3s? Patches, moving hardware targets, and obsolete a few years down the road? Sounds like a system I just bought, and it is a computer, in the sense that I usually think of a computer. It cost me less than a PS3 too.
And yes, I know there were different versions of the PS2, something like 15 of the damn things. As far as I know, 14 of those reworked the hardware to stop you from being able to execute your own arbitrary code. Number 15 was the "slim" model. I don't think any of them changed anything fundamental about the system itself (clock speeds, drive sizes, etc).
Oddly enough, I just picked up a PS2 out of the trash about a month back. It was in pretty bad condition, but after a few hours working on it, it kinda works. I figured I'd buy a game or two for it. A look at the selection surprised me. I'd already played everything I was intrested in on my PC, or could buy it cheaper on my PC. One could argue that with the PS2 version, it's guaranteed to work, I just pop it in and play. For someone like me that's not much of a selling point, but for my less technically inclined family, it's probably great. So, what's the benefit of a PS3?
"I do a grep for shit, bollocks, and tits before checking in code. I'm professional..." -RECURSIVE_META_JOKE, reddit.com
sun apparently hot, water apparently wet. Seriously, by which metric would it not be considered to be a computer?
I can hear it now, BUT MOM!!! -- I'm not playing games, I'm working on the computer!
:q! Oh crap, not again...
As has been noted countless times, you can do 1080p over component cables. There are TV's out today (for as low as $1700!) that do so. You'll be able to buy Blu-Ray movies and play them at 1080i at least until 2012.
Given all that, why must you spend $100 more when the only thing you gain is an unwelcome does of DRM with HDMI?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It didn't work with the 32X or the Sega CD. It didn't work with the N64 RAM upgrade or the 64DD. It sure as hell didn't work with the PS2 HDD. I have no idea why Sony thinks it can pull this upgrade crap off.
It's getting so bad that the more times Kutaragi shoots off his mouth, the more I think that he is purposely sabotaging the PS3 out of anger that he was not named CEO. I thought Nintendo requiring a $50 (?) upgrade to their $200 N64 was crazy. This is just ridiculous.
Come on, Ken. You are selling this idea to people who pay some goon at Best Buy to install their new sound card.
Watch, in two years $600 will get you a PS3 with BD-ROM with a decent speed, a HD big enough to actually give you some advantage loading your games, and enough RAM to actually play the new games.
There is absolutely no reason to buy a PS3 before Sony makes their plans perfectly clear in this regard. Fuzzy quotes about what you might need in the future to make your $600 paperweight playable again is an insult to any potential customers.
The "computer" aspects of PS3 will be just as useless as the PS2 Linux kit. Don't be suckered into thinking that Linux on PS3 is going to be any use. It only has 256MB of system RAM. What the hell are you going to do with 256MB on a "computer"??
Oh, I don't know...run full KDE 3.5.2 desktops and such on Mandriva 2006 linux, FreeBSD 6.0, OpenSolaris 5.11 maybe? That's what my computer I'm posting on does with a P4 2.0 gHz, 256mb RAM, D845EBG2 motherboard, and an old Nvidia GeForce2 MX/MX 400 64mb GPU.
Plus, it is *not* sluggish, or take ages to open apps, or limit me (that I've noticed) in the number of apps I have open. I also have menu, taskbar, and window titlebar translucencies enabled without any apparent degradation in speed. I suppose if I *tried* to overload it I could, but I use it normally without problems.
I'm not defending Sony. I will not buy any more Sony products after the used PS2 I picked up a couple years ago for $20. I don't buy new games for it either..Gamefly meets my needs admirably and cheaply, along with used game stores.
However, implying you cannot do useful things like being a full-featured home desktop with a computer with "only" 256mb RAM is incorrect.
Cheers!
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Not to leapfrog over it. If you take a serious look at the Xbox 360 you will see some of the same upgradability built in. Plus since most of it's software is really an internet service, the interface can be upgraded seamlessly on the fly. Sony has to create something similar or face being marginalized.
While I agree with most people here that the PS3 will be overpriced, I want all that functionality to be built in. I want my game console to also play DVD's, MP3 from my computer, record TV, output digital Audio in every format known to man (DTS 7.1 anybody?), download new expansions to existing games through the Internet, etc. Come one people. Why would you not want this stuff? Even if you use only part of the functionality of the system, it still adds to the value if you use that part. Plus Microsoft screwed people by offering reletively small hard drives with the 360 when it shipped. I hope that Sony will offer 300GB upgrades because frankly, I could use them.
And lastly dammit, I want a keyboard! It's freakin' hard typing in chat with a controller! Just allow the device to use a wireless standard keyboard or a USB one like the PS2 does already.
Just a quick correction, The base PS3 is $500, not $600.
The base PS3 can use component cables to deliver games at 1080P and movies to at least 1080i (1080p movies may be restricted not by ICT but by fundamental AACS restrictions).
I too find it odd that so many people seem so pissed off at Sony the game company when it was Sony the media company that gave us the whole root-kit fiasco, which is I think what really turned so many against Sony.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
An, yes, but a PC also plays PC games, surfs the 'net, rips and burns music, is much more customizable, etc.
Well, I don't know about you, but I find that I have no problems with my Pentium-233 laptop with 96MB RAM and a 4GB hard disk – and it's running the latest available software. That is, the latest available Linux software. Not trying to promote the virtues of one OS over the other, I'm just pointing out that "low-end" for one system is overkill for another – kind of like one man's trash is another man's treasure. And most of my other machines have 256MB. I just don't need very much more than that.
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
I don't understand why everyone hates the ps3 so much,
Because it's $600.
if you dont want to spend the $600, then don't.
Hm. I don't think this is what Sony is trying to say. "Don't buy our product!" is not a marketing push one often finds coming from electronics companies.
Please post the link to any Blu-Ray movie to be sold that makes use of the ICT.
After that write a three page paper on exactly why when a company is trying to grow market share you would sell a format that could not be used by 90% of the market you are aiming at (HDMI being a recent inclusion in the HDTV market).
Why is it so hard to believe that a company would do something that actually makes them more money? I thought the tagline was that all companies were greedy? Then why are you saying they'll not act like it?
The ICT flag was a great laugh for the media execs to come up with, but when that met the reality of sales it was discarded as common sense and profit would dictate.
Alright, so we're basically seeing a kinda N64 thing going on here.. kind of. Basically, in the future, some games on the PS3 will be "expansion required or something" (like how they had Expansion Pak N64 games). Now is where I see Sony shooting themselves in the foot... again.
Six hundred is already a lot of money, at least when we're talking consoles. But it's not gonna stop there. Alright, so most people will have to hold off on the PS3, accounting for its outrageous price. Right?
Then it escallates. Sony releases a PS3 expansion Nov. of 2007 (in who knows what form). Some games, taking advantage of new hardware, will become "expansion only." So, even if the price _is_ dropped at _all_ before the new expansion comes out, the new price of this hardware is tacked on.
And we can all guess what the price range may be, considering Sony's past in the industry.
So what I'm saying is, extra things will just make more price problems. Especially if some of the "upgraded" games are those killer app, Halo-kinda things. The game that you're a loser for not having. The game that's hyped at three E3s before its launch and gets like a 9.5 on Gamespot.
But, of course, this is all assuming they're going to actually be upgrading core components of the machine. But hey, with this stupid computer analogy tacked on, it's seems that way. It's not like they're going to just pull out new hard drives every year... 8GB was enough on the Xbox.
Oh, and if people are going to be screwing around _inside_ the machine, boy it better be easy. I mean Power Mac G5 easy... not like a beige boxed Win 3.1 machine. Or everyone will start breaking their expensive console/computer/Linux/blah.
"Video games are bad for you? That's what they said about Rock and Roll..." ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Especially with the emergence of online versions of many traditional desktop apps, if its got a good browser, that could well be enough of a computer (particularly, enough of a second or third computer in the house) for many people.
:-)
That's a really good point and is something that's very different now - if it can run Google Calc and Google Mail and Google Calendar and (eventually) Google Word... WebTV was very limited in functionality, basically email and very poor browsing.
Plus, you know, the PS3 has other functions besides being a set-top web browser box. Like playing movies. And, you know, its a game console, too.
A game console! I hadn't heard!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The internet.
Nice try Zonk
If the PS3 is declared a computer then it does not attract this tax in the UK for example. For this very reason Sony shipped the PS2 with a very simple programming language, thereby allowing them to call it a programmable computer (with some educational value) and qualifying for an import taqx break.
Nick.
Seriously, do you forget what happens when Sony makes a promise? Sony wanted to make the HDD a required upgrade to the PS2. How did that turn out? Console history is littered with failed required peripherals.
You missed my whole point, which was that both models of the PS3 come with everything you need to actually PLAY GAMES. Hence an HD in both the base and the premium (unlike the 360 which went the other way for some reason). Hence 1080p support via component in the base model.
The other stuff you can add (like a media reader) probably will not gain much traction in games, for the reasons you mentioned - game makers don't like 'em, game buyers don't buy 'em (much). It's just a wish of mine that USB mouse support will become rampant in all PS3 FPS games though I am under no illusion that will actually come to pass.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Does this mean I can buy the el-cheapo edition, purchase a (i'm guessing it will be IDE?) harddrive of my choice, and slap that baby in the PS3 to upgrade my capacity? or did I not read this correctly?
That for me is the most intresting part of the PS3. Console games meh but the PS3 as a alternative PC, that is mighty intresting to those who think MS dominance of the desktop is not a good thing.
Imagine if Sony really does get it right with the PS3 Linux PC (unlikely), all the problems with linux not having drivers will be gone in an instant. Instead all PS3's will have exactly the same hardware. No more drivers problems no need to support decades worth of ancient equipment.
Oh sure I am dreaming, but maybe, just maybe sony will somehow slip up and actually get it right and not screw itself over.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Opportunity knocks. Karma hunts you down.
It's called a Mac
How long will it be before I can just play PS3 games on my own non-PS3 PC? It seems to me that it can't be *too* hard to make that happen, and make the PS3 completely pointless to begin with.
Sony, of course, will DRM the crap out of it, but that didn't stop PSP homebrew apps from being developed.
My coffee machine is a computer, too.
The sig is not meant to be a witty reference to Volatiare so much as a witty reference to Microsofts relation to Apple. As I continue to enjoy it, and indeed as time goes on it becomes more and more eerily accurate, it continues to stay. Sorry, but if you can't even complain in person why should I place any value in your opinion? I mean why post as AC, you obviously do not have mod points this round or I'd have been modded down already. Another options is to come up with a better one, which I may adopt if I find it amusing enough. Don't just bitch, offer alternatives!
I have read Voltaire thanks, very nice stuff. Again my quote is not meant in any way to echo the ideas he puts forth, just as a twist on a popular phrase that happened to have been put forth by Voltaire.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
"Frankly, Sony's destroying the one benefit a console ever had: the hardware was standardized."
How, exactly? PS3 *GAMES* will still have to comply to a fixed set of TRCs. New models won't break compatibility with old models on pain of massive consumer and content provider headaches. Remember the outcry when the PStwo broke PSone back-compatibility for a handful of titles?
There are many ways the hardware can be revised and upgraded without risking catastrophic compatibility issues. It's still a controlled platform.
Traditional console industry model: design a piece of hardware, keep it completely static for six years and then mothball it and start from scratch. This made sense 20 years ago when consoles were made from cheap, older components and many aspects of the technology (storage, copy protection, IO) hadn't been nailed down. It's harder to justify now - it's hugely inefficient for the hardware manufacturers and risky for developers who have to learn a new system, not to mention prohibitively expensive for everyone.
Nintendo have already moved away from this approach (with the DS and Wii being at their cores an augmented GBA and GCN respectively), it stands to reason other hardware companies will be eager to do the same.
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I've had a Sony computer and I have no intention of buying another.
quoted from the last kalisteo dc release in 2000:
| Sega has offered us stock options to stop releasing DC, so this will |
| be it, our last release. Thanks to all who have supported us |
| throughout our stay in the DC scene. Take note this is NOT a joke. We |
| are really stopping all DC operations with this release. We will |
| continue on with the PSX. Bye.
Holy crap. Sony has gone insane.
As other posters have pointed out, this has been tried and tried and tried and tried. Intellivision. Atari. Coleco. Even priced efficiently, it's never worked and for good reason: the WHOLE POINT of owning a console is to ONLY HAVE A SINGLE, STANDARD CONFIG!!
I bought Half Life 2 when it came out, and I still haven't been able to play the damned thing despite owning a machine far more powerful than the specs require. The thing keeps crashing, and after several months of watching the Steam forums Valve came up with a workaround for the many, many others who had the same problem: go into BIOS and jiggle your memory timing! Well, that's great. Only my particular motherboard doesn't have that option, and even if it did, I sure wouldn't be screwing around with BIOS just to get a single program running. Far as I know, Valve *still* hasn't fixed the problem; as far as they're concerned, it's already fixed. Just jiggle your timing, guys.
That whole experience drove me away from Valve for good and back to my trusty PS2 for gaming. Yeah, games have bugs, but if a game doesn't work then it doesn't work *anywhere*. In the console world, you simply never have game developers telling you to jiggle your friggin' memory timings just to get their damned product to run. Again, that's the whole advantage of being a console gamer over being a PC gamer; take that away and no thanks, I'll keep my real computer, thanks. Microsoft isn't this stupid and my slimline PS2 is doing just fine.
Dammit, Sony, don't you realize that Microsoft isn't your greatest competitive challenge here? Or Nintendo? Are you so stupidly blind that you can't see that the PS3's most dangerous competitor is the PS2? You know, that extremely stable platform with thousands of quality titles that developers know inside and out, the one that isn't trying to be anything other than what it is? Don't you realize that there are millions of folks like me who aren't debating between the PS3 and the 360, but over whether or not to ditch our trusty PS2s for this trick pony that's looking more and more like a '48 Tucker?
There are a number coming out on the 20th of June, look on Amazon. Just search for "Blu-Ray".
Since you seem to know the direction the studios intend to move despite what logic and common sense would dictate I figure it is incumbent on you to find proof the ICT flag will be used anytime in the near future, or even simply to propose a rational alternate theory as to why they would enable the flag at a time when they are trying to grow marketshare. You seem only to be stalling.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Does this mean I'll be able to class it as a computer for taxation purposes? :D
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
It's clear from the comments that Sony is indicating that it will be possible to upgrade hard drives and perhaps even other components easily.
... but probably not cheaply.
Easily, maybe
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
(from "Burning Chrome" (1982), via jessesworld)
sig? Oh, that sig...
Actually, it's probably a good move and focus for SONY to explore. The PS3 is also a media center and has the functionaility of a computer. WebTV never really took off, but in this context it may. Toss in a plug-in to handle caller-id on the TV screen and/or VOIP and this box will become the center of every owners home.
Interfacing with every computer, the net, cable, IPTV, VOIP, games, PSPs, bluetooth phones, PDAs and who knows what else. A lot of possibilities there as well as a vastly expanded market for SONY.
It would be interesting to see them go the other route tho, and offer PS3 card/Blu-Ray drive combos to install in our PCs. I'd love to be able to play some of my PS3 games on my PC - or possibly even my laptop on the road.
It will all fail if SONY neglects their core gamer market, the pricing has already turned many noses up - so it's time for their PR department to get out their and justify the wait and price for the PS3, and now.
The slashdot summary takes Kutaragi WAAAAAAY out of context here.
The main purpose of buying a console is that you don't have to upgrade to have great games that run as intended in your machine.
If you look at games like Lord of War in the PS2, you have to give credit to the programers for being able to squeeze so much performance from such a limited hardware by today standards.
When would you ever be able to play something like that in a 250MHz Pentium? Never in your life, cause programers don't feel inclined to get as much performance as they really could from older computers because they know that people will upgrade it.
Now the same will happen with the PS3 console and every 2 years or so you will have to waste money to upgrade it, when programers could really just try harder and squeeze a bit more of it's performance. No PS3 for me, now I'll wait until Christmas and compare Wii with Xbox 360 by then and buy the one that offers best quality/price ratio.
I don't need Blu-Ray or any DRM-encumbered video interface, but give me a Linux OS with good OSS OpenGL drivers for the Cell GPU and PS2/PS3 game compatibility and i'll buy 3 of them.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
All I can see from this is negative. <shrugs> Maybe the console people won't mind creating two seperate versions of the same game, one for the older PS3, and one for the newer PS3's... but something tells me that they won't spend the kind of time and money that that would require. The result will be that customers are going to get screwed.
/dev/random
I see reports that Cell will be used in high-end computing servers. I side-business of mine is consulting for a company using it for HDTV processing systems. If you're telling me that I as a geek can have a Linux computer that == a node in my super computer that == my game station, I will move to it. So will many more hard software engineers.
Clearly, you don't get it. They need that target on their foot so when step on Nintendo and Microsoft's faces they'll have perfect aim to shoot them in the face!
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the PS2 classed as a computer or something as it meant lower import taxes to other countries or something along those lines.
I faintly remember reading something that by including the YaBasic program on the demo disc that is supplied with the PS2 meant it had programming capabilites (well you could make very simple graphic games i suppose) and so could be classed as a computer of some sort.
Anyone else remember this?
They don't seriously believe this, do they? It just sound like thespin to me. They're trying to make any excuse they can to deflect criticism.
...the sky is blue.
you really fucked yourselves over on this one. Maybe sega will give nintendo some real competition and get back into the console market.
Didn't Sony do this with the PS2, Create some excuse to call their latest game / entertainment system a computer, to avoid taxation. The first versions of the PS2 was bundled with the programming language "Yabasic" making the unit programmable by the user, therefore a computer.
Didn't Sony try to slate the XBOX 360 for needing upgrades (to get WiFi etc.) only last week? I believe they said that "The PS3 will come with everything you need out of the box and last more than 5 years". This week they've decided its a computer and needs to be upgraded every year or two. If they can't even make their mind up about this I really can't see the lauch being very succesful somehow.
It's looking to me like somebody is desperately trying to justify an absurd price tag. Its just a shame that their marketing department obviously didn't have a meeting and all agree on what to say before all giving interviews and contradicting each other.
I thought I read somewhere that Sony made the same claims with the PS2 and that a big motivation behind the move was to avoid a certain type of taxation on the console in Europe.
If that's the case I can't say I blame them. It's absurd how heavily everything in Europe is taxed. It's bad enough in the US; I don't even know how people in Europe survive. And on top of that, they're constantly cutting back social services.
If I can run Opera and OpenOffice on it, I would consider buying it.
Games, Movies, Productivity, Internet. If they can have those four selling points, they could avert a disaster.
I'm going to find every single Sony fan who mockingly called the first Xbox a computer and laugh in their face until they cry.
For that price, and at that size, I'd certainly hope it's a computer. Hell, if it wasn't loaded with DRM that will probably keep me or anyone else from running unsigned code and all that jazz without simultaneously voiding the warranty and breaking the law, and could run any operating system I'd deem fit for it - which it probably won't - I'd consider it a definite alternative to a new personal computer bought from, let's say, Dell. A $600 personal computer that could act as a powerful server, router, or high-end workstation? Now that's a deal! Let's not fool ourselves, though. This thing isn't a personal computer, it's a glorified game console with a number of features usually associated with a home entertainment center. We're not going to be using this hardware to do our work or for other more casual purposes you'd use a personal computer, workstation, or server for. The point of the Playstation 3 is games, and little much else.
That said, these market-tards from Sony need to get their act together. If you want to make a cheap, powerful computer, make a cheap powerful computer. (And for fuck's sake, open it up you morons. One Playstation 3, hold the DRM.) If you want to make an overpriced game console, make an overpriced game console. Clearly they're attempting to justify the high price of the machine, and make it look cheap by comparison to a personal computer. Silly question, Mr. Sony CEO, just how dumb do I look to you?
Oh, is that so? Well, you're a presumptuous asshole. Bite me.
then whats to stop me from buying a damn computer and using it for everything else i want to?
You are incorrect about the DS. The DS is not a modified GBA. The DS has two processors, one DS processor, and one GBA processor for backwards compatibility. That second processor can also be used for DS games to offload sound processing from the main CPU. The actual main processor of the DS, however, while it has the same base as the GBA processor, is significantly different. That is part of the reason many developers continue to make GBA games and have not fully transferred development over to the DS yet. Well...one of the reasons.
just some guy
seriously, once you go to hdd you're pretty much a computer. Silly thing is for the prices we are seeing it's getting to the point of why bother with the console when you can get the computer for the same price.
Then again this is why MS got in the game, they see the PlayStation as a threat to the windows OS. Once you can plug in a printer, run office apps, send email, and browse the web on a PlayStation why bother with a IBM clone. Big problem for Sony is they need to keep the price down to make it more sensible to buy the "console" instead of the "computer".
Average things you do with a computer
play games
Email
Office Apps
Browse the Web
Things you do with a Console
Play games
Add those other three things and a large part of the population will say "I need that computer why?". Actually come to think of it, get a browser working and hook up with gmail and you cover a large portion of the big 3.
And that's one reason why. If I want a game console, I can get a 360 and a Wii for the price of one PS3. If I want general purpose computing, I already have a computer that I can hack around on, without Trusted Computing BS. There are plenty of good games that work fine, and my monitor is almost the resolution of a high-end HDTV. And if I want high-def video, I can *cough* buy porn that'll play on Linux with no DRM at all, downloaded, in high def, with none of the BS restrictions of Blu-Ray.
If Sony wants me to buy the PS3, they need a killer app for it. Throwing in everything under the sun comes close to being a killer app, even if they haven't come up with a single innovation. The deal-breaker is, I already have a machine that does all that and more, and it's called a PC -- and even if I didn't, I wouldn't buy a PS3 if I could get a decent PC for about twice as much, and I can.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Coming to stores near you, Dragon Quest IX exclusive for PS3 upgrade package 1.4 or better!
He also says that all playstations 3's will come with a minimum of what was posted in E3 so games will run on all hardware equally. However it should be easily upgradeable should people want to use it for other functions.
I'll be satisfied if there is software out there that will make it a decent and cheap htpc alternative in 2 years when prices will be more affordable and i think about actually buying it.
Hmmm... Pie...
I just read an article regarding the same topic at Gamestop. The article states:
He further emphasized the PS3's PC-like abilities, stating there would be no problems running popular flavors of OS, including Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X: "to the PS3, an OS is like any other application."
Unless Sony whips up some amazing virtualization software, this is just a flat-out lie or extreme ignorance. Article URL: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152519.html
Similes are like metaphors
The problem with the ever-evolving hardware is that developers no longer know what they can assume. Let's say that this year's PS3 model doubles the capacity of the hard disk. That might be a nice feature - you can have more save points in games, or perhpas cache more of the game to the drive, or whatever. When game developers start picking up on this and savegames and such start taking twice as much space (or more), what happens to the owners of older models? It might still work, but they'll end up making space by deleting other savegames. Their game may end up with extremely slow load times, because they can't cache as much of a game.
An even better example would be an upgrade to the graphics capabilities. Nintendo did this with the 64, through that expansion pack. Since it came relatively late in the game, only a few games used it at all, but let's imagine that the PS3 gets a graphics upgrade two years after it comes out. Well, at that point, you'll start seeing games that run poorly or not at all on the older model systems. As time goes on, less of the new additions to the library would work with your outdated system.
I can imagine a situation where PS3 games would have minimum system requirements printed on the box. That would be fun; the Jonses really give a shit about how much RAM their Playstation has. On the developer side, you end up writing two different graphics paths (or caching algorithms, etc), just like you do for a PC (although some PC engines have many more than two paths) to accomodate those oddball PS3s that came out a long time ago. Or perhaps, you as a developer just don't want to screw with it and don't support those old PS3s at all. Most places won't refund your money after you open a game, something I doubt the Jonses would be happy with after finding out that their PS3 doesn't support this game. These issues have been the historic weakness of PC gaming: it requires some technical knowledge, you have to support multiple pieces of hardware, and you end up alienating some of your audience that doesn't have the proper hardware.
If you're willing to brave those typical PC issues, why not just get a PC? At $600, you could probably build something comparable.
"I do a grep for shit, bollocks, and tits before checking in code. I'm professional..." -RECURSIVE_META_JOKE, reddit.com
I think this guy is talking bullfluff. Case in point: "possibly" making it easy to upgrade. Either the console, err 'computer' was designed from the bottom-up with the idea to make upgrades simple, or it wasn't. Saying "possibly" tells me the marketing department filtered this one, and poorly at that. Perhaps they should consider calling it a different name other than PS3? You know, catchy in the way only a Sony can be: like MX-DJi7, or PEG-UX9875J.
The PS3 is a "meta format," Kutaragi has stated in previous interviews. This means that the PlayStation 3 platform can exist in various hardware configurations, as long as its meets certain base specifications and can run the same basic games. The two configurations that will be available at launch provide a perfect example.
Source: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/711/711688p1.html
So it seems as though all consoles will have the same base stats for all games. I'll be the only upgradeable stuff will be superficial like a bit more ram for linux apps or more hard drive space.
Hmmm... Pie...
shouldn't it be called Workstation 3?
/food for thought.
While Sony seems to be pretty much 'all over the place' with regards to their descriptions of the new console, what they are really trying to do with this 'its a computer' type marketing schpeal, is try to emphasize that they are focusing on making a 'computer' that is designed to be component-based, not 'fixed' with it's hardware.
For example, look at a typical home stereo. It's built of several individual components, a tuner, an amplifier, a cd player / dvd player, etc.
What if the gaming console went the direction of just becoming 'another' component in the overall home entertainment unit? don't want a normal dvd drive? want to upgrade to a blue-ray drive? just swap the components. Want a larger storage device? Just plug in a larger USB drive and voila.
That type of thing.
Instead of being a 'computer' like the rest of the industry is used to thinking about them, turn it into just another component in the rest of the Sony 'Home Entertainment' platform, and these statements & Sony's actions as of late begin to make sense.
The funniest part about this is all of the whining about the price point for the PS3. Look at the rest of the components for a mid to high-end entertainment system. Most of those ocmponents are all going to likely be upwards of 500$ or more.
Most people that have hardcore entertainment systems have thousands of dollars in amplifiers, speakers & TV setups - what's $500 for the centerpiece of the entertainment system? Which is really what the so-called 'next-gen' of consoles is really all about - replacing the DVD player / CD player with a single unit that can play CD's, play DVD's, play killer next-gen games, serve as your HD-based storage media device, provide net access etc.
I'd like to know how many people that are complaining about the PS3 price point have an iPod? The new high-end iPod's are almost as much as the PS3 is going to cost, and they JUST play music (ok, so some of them play shit-ass video on a tiny screen that might possibly output low-res video to an external screen).
The PSP was almost the same price when it was released - the DS is almost the same price...
Spending $500 (ish) dollars on something that will 'supposedly' do everything the PS3 can do is hardly excessive, and Sony is more than likely correct in their thinking about the price point.
With all of this said, they really need to get their 'sh*t' together on their marketing though. They have shoot themselves in the foot so many times with confused, contradictory marketing speak that by the time it actually gets released, I'm curious whether anyone will care...
Gekido's Lair
The reason I don't count the lower end model is because it's better to get everything up front, Sony Claims that blu-ray movies will play fine over component on the PS3 for the first couple of years then it will be mandatory that they use the HDMI connection for true HD viewing (otherwise they are no better then DVD, thus rendering Blu-Ray useless at that point) so it renders the lower end model pointless at that point.
But at that point you can just get a standalone Blu-Ray player.
So even if you are pessistic and think that in two years they may turn on the ICT flag, you still have an out and the console works just as well for games. If not, then you have saved $100 you never had to spend.
It's not that big oof a gamble and the purchase of the $500 model helps to ensure a longer timeframe before they do turn on the ICT flag (because the PS3 will represent by far the largest number of Blu-Ray players for some time to come).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
..second probably only to the original Nintendo. Everybody owns one and people are still buying them. Buying them in greater numbers then people are buying Xbox360s in most places, ironicly.
"Also, wasn't the PS2's official title "computer entertainment system"? Look how that worked out"
Ya we all saw how that worked out. It played DVDs and cdroms, and released at a time when most people didn't have a dvd player.
Sony just doesn't know what they are doing, I guess. WTF were they thinking?
Basically, every games consoles is already a computer, but without an input device, i.e. the keyboard and local storage device. Now the PS3 with Linux, USB keyboard and mouse installed makes an excellent home computer. And the most important thing that a lot of the posters seem to miss, is that every games will run on the basic configuration. The expansion capabilities is mainly for aplications or multimedia capabilities. If you just wants to plays games, there's nothing to stop you. It's like buying a cellphone, today, at the very least it will have SMS function, it's up to you whether you want to use it or not.
The closest analogy of what PS3 is trying to achieved is the Commodore Amiga. I know American are basically ignorant of anything outside of an Apple or Wintel, but this is a computer that outperform both platform in it's days. And it was also the best games machine until rise of the popularity of the dedicated video games console. I suggest you people check the Amiga entry in Wikipedia. Here is some example of choice passages:
The Amiga was originally designed by a small company called Amiga Corporation as the ultimate video games machine. Before the machine was released into the market, the company was bought out by Commodore, and it was redesigned into a real, general-purpose computer. The first model, called the Amiga 1000, was released in 1985 as a successor to the Commodore 64 and a rival to the Atari ST.
Commodore later released several new Amiga models, both for low-end gaming use and high-end productivity use. Throughout the 1980s, the Amiga's combination of advanced hardware and operating system software offered greater power than its competitors, but in the 1990s, other platforms, most of all the PC, reduced or eliminated this advantage.
At the time of its introduction (1985) the Amiga had what was a complex overall architecture, featuring co-processors suited for audio and visual tasks. In many eyes this made the Amiga superior to all competing systems, despite competitors offering faster CPUs, high(er) resolution monochrome graphics and MIDI.
The platform had three significant upgrades (not counting non-Commodore technologies), with the Amiga 2000 in 1987, Amiga 3000 in 1989 and the Amiga 4000 in 1992. These upgrades improved the platform's graphical abilities, allowing for more colors and different display modes, and added expansion slots and ports.
Trivia:
* The Amiga was originally intended to be a workstation. When the A1000 was release, it was advertised as a business machine, but it didn't make it, until it began to be used as an videogame computer.
Trivia: * The Amiga was one of the first computers for which one could buy cheap accessories for sound sampling and video digitization. This means that not only can the Amiga produce computer-generated images and sound, but users can input "real" images and sound for editing, composition, and use in computer games.
The Amiga can display graphics in 32 bit colour, well before microsoft or apple. Its revolutionary visual processor made it the first computer used to do digital effects for a tv program.
In the PC/Amiga/ST rivalry, the quality of the Amiga's sound output, and the fact that the hardware is ubiquitous and easily addressed by software, was the standout feature of Amiga hardware that the PC lagged behind for years.
Operating systems:
At the time of release AmigaOS was the only consumer oriented operating system to feature both pre-emptive multitasking and a GUI. This, coupled with closely integrated custom hardware, gave the average consumer the experience of an OS well ahead of its time. One reason for extraordinarily loyal fan base is due to the strengths of the machine at the time: it has a stable, compact, efficient, multitasking OS, it is relatively easy to program for, software has relatively easy access to the hardware (the base hardware was fixed so software could be coded specifically to the hardware), there is a we
Hey if its upgradeable then maybe Sony will release a correctly working version of their cell processor *snicker*. All I have to say about the PS3 release is two words "SEGA SATURN!"
1. Doesn't have a mouse
2. only plugs into your tv
3. will only be upgradeable with sony made products, which will cost more than the equivalent computer part.
4. Cannot run any windows or mac applications that users are familiar with.
yeah... this, and the fact that we're only hearing *NOW* that it's supposed to be a computer, makes me somewhat sceptical.
On the other hand, this is exactly the sort of proprietary crap that sony would *LOVE* to have everyone running. Make us pay out of the wazoo to use sony only programs and formats...
I suspect that the PS3 will turn into a decent console, but a computer? Common.
The C64 was a computer/gaming machine, that i'd say turned out pretty sucessful!
Tibbon
tibbon.com
My Theory of Computation professor had her own definition for a computer. There were four main conditions:
Stored program
Separation of processing and memory
Turing Machine
Programmable
At least that's the best that I can remember, I don't seem to have it in any notes handy. I'm sure that by this definition though, the PS3 is a computer. Of course, so are all the other game consoles. There's definitely some stored microcode in there, processing and memory are separated, and given the complexity of the games the programming languages are surely Turing complete.
Of course that's the theoretical definition, which really isn't what this is talking about.
Look, the simple fact is that they cannot just turn on the flag in two years because the nukmber of players and displays aropund not supporting HDMI will still be too great. They cannot risk that while in the middle of a format war, and they wouldn't even risk the loss of sales otherwise. If they did what you said they would just be done with it and turn on the flag right now - epplain why it is they do not have the flag on today, and then explain why those reasons will differ substantially in two years.
Now consider the extras you list - which of them do you NEED to play games or movies:
1) Multi-format card reader, for reading photos from your camera. WTF? My Camera? Not useful for games or movies, pass. Not to mention they cost like $20 for an external USB model I can use if I want (which they already said in an interview was supported).
2) Large hard drive. Yes 20GB can fill up, but honestly if I'm playing GAMES and MOVIES, what is it going to fill up with? One of the more compelling upgrades I'll grant but I'd also say I can get a much larger drive and replace it myself for much less than $100.
3) Wireless. Just because it lacks wireless doesn't mean it doesn't have a network adaptor. Suck it up and run a cable over yonder.
Not to mention that for a lot of people, networking will never matter because this sucker will be a Final Fantasy workstation (or other Japanese RPG). So it's again much less of a need for a lot of gamers.
4) HDMI. You simply are not understanding that this is the biggest negative of the whole deal. I would pay money for a console without this; Sony has chosen to make a version $100 cheaper! You can play games at 1080p over component. You can watch movies at least 1080i over component. Simply put it will not look that much different that HDMI with quality componet cables, AND you can run said cables a longer distance without the signal dying. Furthermore have you read what a nightmare HDMI is to connect in the real world? I hope you've waited for HDMI v1.3 where many of the kinks have been washed out... I say wash your hands of it and use a connection standard that makes sense and looks almost as good.
Lastly, think for a second - WHY do you think it would require the HDMI connection to play games? That makes zero sense, at the core it is a GAMES console. There is no technical need to use HDMI for 1080p, indeed modern displays quite happily accept 1080p over component. So since there is no technical drawback to supporting 1080p over component why would the $500 PS3 not do so?
SImply put the $600 PS3 offers nothing a gamer really needs, because everything you need is right there in the $500 console and if you want one or two of the extra features you can do better buying them yourself for less than $100.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Even with computers games need more and more resources. So you need to upgrade a computer. I dont think it will be a hardware compatability issues. I'm sure you'll have to buy propietary hardware for the PS3 only, but that's not a bad thing here. Really it isn't. So in the future if it needs an upgrade for something, I wont have to buy a PS 200 or whatever because I can just upgrade hardware. Sounds logical actually.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
It sounds like Kutagari is talking about a reference design rather than a product. He also brings Sony Media into the conversation which reminds one of the tools offered by BD+ to "maximize enjoyment by ensuring that platform capabilities and media presentation are suitably matched" (not a real quote). It seems inevitable that the first few generations will be quickly compromised. What does this mean for the people who buy them?
I take Kutaragi's comment to mean they want to position the PS3 as an annual purchase, like a car. *
You have your 2005 vehicle and it's all well and good until they come out with the 2006. And suddenly you have the old model. Suddenly your paint isn't as shiny, your speedo shrinks like body parts in cold water, your tires no longer roll the same way, and horrors, the cup holders fold themselves away and refuse to come out again. What a loser you are with your year-old car!
Similar things happen with computers where last year's laptop is just not the same as having a brand new one. If it's not new new new, it doesn't matter.
*Oddly enough, you may also need to finance the PS3 expense like a car but that's a side issue and there's always a chance Sony will decide to start up a bank to make those loans. Extra profit.
This is a real doubt I have: the $500 version does not include Wi-Fi connectivity. Does that mean then that it won't be able to communicate with the PSP?
I don't mind the HDMI connector, 20 GB might be enough for a good time, and I couldn't care less about the shiny logo. But I'm not sure if I won't miss Wi-Fi and memory card reader (for backwards compatibility; I hope it at least saves PS2 card info on the HD).
The beauty of the sig is that it's a little bit unclear exactly what it is saying - the delighful ambiguiity is in fact its main feature! Your interpretation inspired by reading Voltaire is different from the laypersons. Exactly what I treasure most.
You all seem to think I am to make some kind of point with the sig. What if making a point is not the point?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
...before commenting.
While I don't think what Sony is saying is a particularly good idea, it doesn't ruin the console or its compatibility/simplicity as is being implied in this thread.
It was said that even with these upgrades, developers would still be making games for the baseline PS3 (512MB memory, 1 Cell, 1 RSX) but they could add other features similair to the way PC games work. Except in this case, with the set configurations the games would auto-detect and adjust accordingly making them decidedly un-PC like.
The beauty of the Cell processor is that its made to have other Cell processors work with it. As production costs decrease, the Cell will become increasingly economical. Come 2010, the _PS4_ could simply consist of 10-16 Cell processors. Transparent distributed computing is one of things the Cell was designed for. While it might sound ludicrous, it's a technically sound thing to do as far as the PS3s technology goes.
On some fairly advanced game, perhaps they could only be rendered at 720p or run at 30 FPS on a standard PS3. Then we'll have the 2008 model of a PS3 with 2 Cell processor, and it could render the same game at 1080p at 60 fps. It's interesting idea. Not one the is particularly consumer friendly, but the PS3 is the first system that has technology to accomodate it.
I personally hope that when the PS4 comes out it's powered by 10-16 Cell processors. Save the graphics card, it would be almost entirely backwards compatible with the PS3 and developers would have a near ZERO learning curve jumping into the new system. While I'm not a huge fan of having a PS 3.0, PS 3.1, PS 3.2 etc the idea of increasing computing power while developing for baseline PS3 specs is an interesting idea. Froma consumer standpoint, I'd far prefer that route (while maintaining compatibility) to have Microsoft artificially shorten console lifecycles be releasing a new system every 3.5 years.
Who knows.
"I think a year from the launch we could indeed extend the configuration of the PS3. Why not!" Kutaragi conceded, "Okay, this is may be joke or a personal opinion. I mean we have no such plan at this very moment. However, companies like Dell or Apple have such programs. In the PC world, specifications rarely last more than two years. You need to update them. I believe the PC is always evolving. I think that the time may come that the 60GB HDD would become too small or the RAM to low. Such issues are numerous."
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_cont
But hey we are on slashdot - news for geeks and fair an balanced !
I remember 2 stories that fascinated me around the launch of the PS2.
1. Saddam Hussein was rumored to stock PS2's since it's powerful processor could be used to guide missiles.
2. Someone racked a bunch of PS2's together to create a supercomputer cluster.
They both seem kind of silly today. I guess history repeats itself, only difference now is that the ps3 will be more expensive, but I'm probably still gonna buy one, just have to sell off all my DVD's on eBay before they drop in price...
So if people are so stupid they why will they understand the difference between the $500 and $600 model? Why would they not just buy the cheaper model, after all it's $100 cheaper and can play the same games!
They are not saying this IS a PC, just that it can replace one. That's what you are many others are not understanding as you sit there playing Armcair CEO.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This is a real doubt I have: the $500 version does not include Wi-Fi connectivity. Does that mean then that it won't be able to communicate with the PSP?
That is actually the first really good point I have seen as to why someone might miss a feature of the $600 model. Indeed, if they do not include Wi-Fi in all models I don't think many game makers will take advanatge of the ability to use the PSP as an extension of a game...
I had read rumblings that Sony was reconsidering leaving that off the $500 model, if they add it back in we'll know why.
To be honest though even if it is in all models I wonder how many game makers will really take advantage of that. I could see it being of use when browsing for a virtual keyboard to replace an on-screen keyboard...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This not something new a console that doubled as a computer it's as old as the home computing movement going back to the mid 1970s long before the first IBM PC. The ballyastrocade could be expaned to be a home computer and eveen have 64K as with the coleco vision which could be exanded into a coleco adam. All Sony did was bring back a very old concept because a console really is just a sepcailized computer. The Atari 5200 was pretty much an Atari 800 with less ram and no keyboard the Xbox 1 really was just a low cost all in one legacy free PC and MS did miss the boat on not allowing it to be used as such. This was very popular in Japan such as the famicom disk drive and keyboard add ons and systems that stradled the definition of console and computer such as the MSX, FM towns and X6800 series. Much of the original Xbox's sucess was the fact it could be hacked to be more computer like and rip dvds run linux etc. It was this that took away PS2 sales even though the PS2 has a little better selection of games. With the 360 being locked down with very an invasive DRM having the PS3 more open and allowing even just protected media rips could be a coup.
Commodore also tried something similar with Amiga CDTV and Amiga CD32; they had a keyboard (optional for CD32) and some expansion options. They were truly amazing at the time they first appeared.
Seriously, when the PS3 comes out will it be the cheapest way to buy those 8 SPEs of 3GHz goodness? I can't see a similarly priced desktop having that sort or power, or are there alternatives?
That's a great idea! Maybe they should talk to Sega about their mid-90s console successes.
Someone check I've got this right but I think the following machines started out as game consoles:
VIC-20
ATARI 8 BIT
C64 - Not sure - I don't think so....
AMIGA (FOR SURE)
Lets look at the last one - the Amiga. When it was released the Amiga was pretty amazing. Every geek who was around drooled at it that I knew. For business sales it sucked - as hard as Commodore pushed it. Nobody is going to run *big* serious business computing stuff on a PS3 - OK Some might, but Sony is not battling the same war. Everyone knows what a PC is, they know what a Mac is.
The key point in the argument between 'Videogames as computers sucked' is that the world is a different place today versus back then. The set top box / computer functionality has moved into the living room as an integral part of the entertainment experience.
Sony isn't entirely insane. They want to *OWN* the living room. PC sales dont matter in the big picture to Sony, they would much rather have a future Amiga type system with cool custom hardware and lots of wonderful DRM.
If Sony really wants to win they should do the following:
1) Put in hardware deadlocks that allow the machine to safely do DRM. (This is very hard when we get to #2)
2) Open up as much of the hardware and software as possible. Publish the hardware specs. Publish the software specs. Let anyone who has the desire hack on the system.
3) Make sure that the machine can be reset back to 'Safe DRM mode' so when the folks get home they can still use it even if Junior has written a new function level programming language.
What disadvantages does this have:
1) The same one as the Amiga. It was a fixed target, it didn't evolve like the PC for games. The flipside is that it is a fixed target and people get to know it really well. How long does the PS3 have to last? 5 Years? Then they just make the entire PS3 a single chip on the PS4.
2) Your gonna get your hardware cracked at some point. Someone will figure out how to crack it. The question is how many people actually do this. How much money has Sony actually lost from Mod chips on the PS2? Probably not that much I would guess.
3) You have to battle off the PC coming down into the living room. You have to battle off MS with a new enhanced XBOX-360 that is similar.
Sonys really advantage is they don't own the PC platform. They aren't tied to Windows. If they were smart they would use this, they would stick Linux on the PS3, they would let people write code on it, and see what happens. They would let the PS3 evolve into its own thing. Nobody knew that people were gonna use Apple II's for VISICALC...
It could be a disaster - but it already seems to be sounding more and more like a disaster, so they may as well at least try and cause the biggest upheavel to the computer industry they can. They arent going to win with the status quo.
--Tarp
Way back in the end of the 80s, a little new computer called "the Amiga" featured a hot CPU that was found in arcades and workstations, the best graphics and sound, a unix-like operating system, a chipset that was standard, a TV out, a mouse, and all the package was hosted in one portable box. Before becoming a computer, the amiga chipset was destined for the arcades and the home console world as the Arcadia video game system.
A PS3 could be the new Amiga. It comes from the video game world (as a console and arcade), it has the latest hot CPU technolofy, the very best graphics and sound, a unix-like operating system, a standard chipset, TV out, and everything will be hosted in one portable box.
If Sony decides to bundle it with Linux, a mouse and a keyboard, with full hardware documentation, a working C/C++ compiler, I would be more than happy to buy it, along with my Wii. I will use Wii to play games, but I will use PS3 to program games as well, and anything else I would imagine.
Unfortunately Sony will not do it, because the only reason PS3 is labelled as a computer is tax avoidance.
So apparently the PS2 was a supercomputer, the PS3 a computer. What will they call the PS4 to hype it ? A pocket calculator or an abacus ?
Does this mean these things will BSOD when we boot them up?
were just gonna make it so you need to upgrade your console every year or two to play the latest games at their max settings. After all, you're getting such a cheap deal on the PS3 as it is.
I buy a console to play games. I buy a PC to surf online and draw with my hacked Photoshop (you didn't just read that).
I don't want both together.
While the Asian market will be "Holy sheet! Smaller = better!" and praise the PS3, and still thinking one thing: If I'm buying something to play games, I want that bad boy to play until
According to Merriam-Webster it is a computer.
a programmable electronic device that can store, retrieve, and process data.
I'm not sure why people are so upset about this. A computer is a generic term which the ps3, xbox, etc... all fit.
nothing
Is it just me, or doesn't this seem to conflict with the quote from the article the other day ( http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/06/07/2041213.s html )
where they said:
"Microsoft is coming out with an HD-DVD accessory for HD movies as an add-on only a year after they launched: that is exactly the kind of thing we don't want to do."
If that's the kind of thing they don't want to do, then why are they talking about doing it?
...this is in preperation as to the possibility of the failure of Blu-Ray. Consider a year or so after the launch, and Blu-Ray goes down in flaming wreckage. This way they wouldn't have to scrap the whole system, but they could offer you an "Upgrade" to an HD-DVD drive. Of course that would possibly render your old games useless, But now you've only spent 3.5-4 times (after upgrade) the amount of the other consoles to still have a ps3. Way to go.
The HD just have to fit the OS (Linux) and main aplications files, all user data and big files can be stored on a network drive (gigabit + jumbof_rames + NFS should be faster than local hard disk) or eventualy on an external USB2.0 HD.
The GUI interface can easily be upgraded to XGL - if not standard from the begining, maybe in a later OS upgrade (every user now that can't find PS3 usefull with an OS will love this).
Software will evolve to take beter optimizations using Cell and it's SPE's (a kind of perfromance upgrades for free as time goes by). Linux kernel is evolving everyday.
Maybe 256M of RAM won't be enough in future, but this is the only missing or irreparable point I can see if it doesn't come with an extra empty slot for extra RAM, maybe replacing the existing RAM if it comes replacable.
Just like the Genesis with the Sega CD and 32x, the Jaguar and the Jaguar CD, the Neo Geo and the Neo Geo CD, the N64 and the expansion pack. Weee, I wanna give $ony $600 every year just to be able to play the latest edition of MGS or GT!!
I didn't realize they were already doing that with PSP games, much less that it used USB. So that solves that issue (though wireless would be more convienient).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Maybe I'm the only one here thinking, that this marketing tactic could work with less computer savvy people. I mean there are a lot of people who might want a computer that only does a few simple things like play games, show movies, email, instant messaging, and a web browser. Even more significantly, I think there are a lot more multi-computer homes. It may not be that much of a strech to convince the new middle-class, middle-age, gamer market that a dedicated game computer for your entertainment system is actually a good buy. Spyware, Malware, and Viruses are making the home pc less attractive for playing games.
Of course, on the other hand, Sony may have no clue what the hell they're doing and they might be frantically trying to find a message that resonates with consumers. However, time will tell, personally I'm going to sit back and watch it unfold, rather than get up in arms over how "Sony hates their customers because they priced a console too high". Don't think it's worth the price? Then don't buy it.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Actually I read a report that researchers had already broken HDCP (which is what HDMI uses), the only problem is that it's illegal to buy devices that would make use of that here - so you'll be hard pressed to find any (though I'm sure they will be made and sold in China).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Does this mean that SONY is out of the console war for good? If it is truly a computer that can be upgraded then whats the point of ever making another console? We are now down to only 2 contenders.
An abacus is a computer. A calculator is a computer. My watch is a computer. Gaming consoles are cumputers. A personal desktop computer is a computer. Now go away.
At what point did you read into this that Sony was going to enable things like replacing video cards and sound boards? I certainly didn't get that from the article - but then, my UID isn't as low as yours. ;)
+++ATH0
This is the same thing Sega was doing with the Saturn and the Genesis and all the stupid Sony fanboys whined and bitched that Sega sucked for making us buy "overpriced" hardware. They thought the CDROM drive for Genesis was dumb and the RAM cart for Saturn was a stupid idea as well. Well, the tide has turned fanyboys. At least Sega never claimed their consoles were anything but gaming machines. Sega actually introduced revolutionary add-ons for their consoles, like for example a modem for online gaming. Maybe that wasn't anything new for PC gamers but it was way ahead of its time for consoles.
And now that Sony is doing the same thing. So Sega does it cheaper, better and with more innovation and gets slandered for it and eventually nearly put out of business for it, Sony does it with far less finesse and all the stupid "Sega sucks Sony rules" fanboys eat the same crap* they belittled years ago.
* Ok, not exactly the same, but the same "upgradeability" feature.
~ So sayeth the wise Alaundo
I'm in love with Playstation. I got the first one when it came out for X-mas. The second one a while ago. It does seem like they are trying to get rid of the PC but that wont happen. I belive it wont happen because many people do not like Sony, they would rather play X-Box or something else. I will be buying the PS3, will it replace my PC? No it wont. PCs are more special then the PS3. The PC have more options. PS3 will only have the PS3 options. Other then that, i belive this is great. Updates are great, never run out of the things. Always something new. Congrats Sony!
The 360 already does all of this and for $200 cheaper.
Did it also say in the interview that is how you will be saving GAMES? cause everything I have read that is it's MAIN function, you won't be able to use a memory card with your GAME saves on it cause they won't be included, but if you have way of transfering saves from the PS1 or 2 and then putting them on to one of the multiformat cards (notice I said that, no wheres did I say Digital Camera Card, they can be used for more then just cameras) and then into the system you can resume them like normal.
You awnsered your own question, if you are playing MOVIES then they add up in space. an average movie is 1 hour 30 minutes in length, just out putting it in an AVI format will result in a 700mb-2gb file (depending on quality), you do the uncompressed MPEG format and you are talking 2gb-4gb for the MOVIE. That adds up really fast. Then with the GAMES it all depends on the developer and how many GAMES you have. look at Battlefeild 2 for the PS2, the updates for it are ALWAYS over 100mb (the two I grabbed clocked in at 400mb for one and 300mb for the other, so that's 700mb gone right there) so you get the updates of that size, addons of that size (if the marketplace takes off and they start offering full games for download ala steam then that hdd will fill up extremly fast for some).
I have no problem running a cable, it's what I normally do, yet not everyone is the same, some would like to have the wireless instead of wired either because they are in a room to far away from the modem and they don't exactly want 300ft of ethernet cord running through their house just so they can play their system online.
I could honestly careless about HDMI but guess what? our opinions on it don't matter. Movies have been dictated that they will only run in HD if they are connected to HDMI, if you use any other way to connect you will not get HD quality video from them, why not get rid of the ethernet port on it aswell? not everyone in the US has broadband, that should knock off another $50 on the price. Take out the HDD in it and we got a ssytem smack dab in the middle of the 360 in terms of price.
Piracy of cours
The PS3 a computer??? I think thats a bit wiered! They should just stick with the console thing, but then again if you want to beat microsoft at their own game you have to do wiered things.
Talk later, Holmesey For free Domain names, PSP's & I-Pod's click
...as I can't believe that he's stupid enough not to realize that EVERY single console EVER produced qualified as a computer! (Not to mention 1000s of other products.)
[sarcasm]I'd also REALLY like to know exactly what is so upgradeable about the PS3. I really doubt that the CPU is socketed, I doubt that the memory is NOT soldered onto the board, and I really doubt that the GPU is slotted. So, hmm, lemme see, oh boy consumers can "upgrade" the hard drive, and from what I gathered from the extremely brief article was that they already expect the shipped hd to be too small?! WTF. (I bet that, that hard drive "upgrade" will be oh so reasonably priced as well... only a 1000% markup.)
Last but not least, if the PS3 really IS a computer, where the hell is my mouse, keyboard, and monitor with the $600 package?[/sarcasm]
Well, it looks like if this wan't just a case of bad translation of some comment by Kutaragii that this definitely indicates that the PS3 is not only going to tank from price, but also by the incredible Microsoftesque arrogance of Sony.
Likely if anything is upgradeable, they'll have some little expansion slot that most consoles had before the PS3 and never ended up using except for whoops, we really needed more memory but were too cheap to include it in the first place(N64). Not to mention if they plan on a 3y ish lifecycle on the PS3(or even 5y) it's unlikely that they'll ever get around to any upgrade as they aren't going to be off-the-shelf and would require design & development of any expansions, which considering the price of the PS3 to begin with aren't very likely to economical/worthwhile.
Did it also say in the interview that is how you will be saving GAMES? cause everything I have read that is it's MAIN function, you won't be able to use a memory card with your GAME saves on it cause they won't be included, but if you have way of transfering saves from the PS1 or 2 and then putting them on to one of the multiformat cards (notice I said that, no wheres did I say Digital Camera Card, they can be used for more then just cameras) and then into the system you can resume them like normal.
The only things I have ever seen the media ports used for are camera reading. For transfer from the PS2 they will probably either do a USB adaptor or something like that... also they may have other game save ports. However, saving games it what the hard drive is for.
Again why not just attach a USB stick to transfer games between systems? I'd rather do that anyway.
I have no problem running a cable, it's what I normally do, yet not everyone is the same, some would like to have the wireless instead of wired either because they are in a room to far away from the modem and they don't exactly want 300ft of ethernet cord running through their house just so they can play their system online.
You can get a wireless or powerline network adaptor for much less than $100. It's the only feature I'd miss.
I could honestly careless about HDMI but guess what? our opinions on it don't matter. Movies have been dictated that they will only run in HD if they are connected to HDMI, if you use any other way to connect you will not get HD quality video from them, why not get rid of the ethernet port on it aswell? not everyone in the US has broadband, that should knock off another $50 on the price. Take out the HDD in it and we got a ssytem smack dab in the middle of the 360 in terms of price.
I cannot believe that people like you still do not understand that movies DO NOT HAVE THE ICT FLAG ENABLED. You CAN watch them at full resolution over component cables, for many years to come. It has been in multiple stories yet people like you just want to hate someone so much you blind yourself to the truth of the matter.
Since everything else you had to say was along similar misinformed lines, I give you the gift of last reposne and hope that you open your eyes someday to reality. While you're still wondering why your HDM v1.2 set is constantly jiggling when connected to your HDMI 1.3 player, I'll just be watching movies at 1080i with no hiccups.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley