Go For a Masters, Or Not?

mx12 writes "I'm currently an undergrad in computer engineering and have been thinking about getting my masters. I have a year left in school. Most of my professors seem to think that getting a masters is a great idea, but I wanted to hear from people out in the working world. Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"

Comments

Work Experience

[DiSKiLLeR]

Work Experience for sure.

And you should be getting some NOW.

But if you want to hang around uni, maybe become an academic, then sure, do your Masters.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

This is bad advice.

Here's the deal:

Masters is the highest route for payment in a professional environment. Just think of this as a 1-2 year pay increase for the investment.

If you want to go into academics, it's PhD or bust. Terminal Degrees = Academia. Masters != Terminal degree in CS/EE/CE fields.

Good luck.

Re:Work Experience

[Bensam123]

Is going to a two year community college and getting two years of experience better then going to a four year university?

After spending time in the real world, I'd say the experience is a crock of shit. There are somethings the daily grind can't make up for.

You'll get those two years of experience after you graduate anyway, ontop of your education.

Re:Work Experience

[nietpiet]

I recommend the masters, a higher degree will make it easier to switch jobs later in your career

Re:Work Experience

[Chrisq]

>

If you want to go into academics, it's PhD or bust. Terminal Degrees = Academia. Masters != Terminal degree in CS/EE/CE fields.

Good luck.

Unless you are one of the odd public-spirited people who have highly marketable qualifications but want to teach in high schools. I have a lot of admiration for the few really knowledgeable and intelligent school teachers in technology and science fields - they really do make a difference - but I would not like to be on a teacher's pay scale myself.

Re:Work Experience

[AuMatar]

In some fields, but not in CS. A masters doesn't get you more money. What gets you more money is experience, especially experience in the field you're looking for work in, and the ability to negotiate. There's just no point to extra years of school in CS, you learn on the job or through self study everything you'd learn in the masters courses.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

You're going to work the rest of your life.
Have some fun now.

Re:Work Experience

[martyros]

Don't forget who is giving you the advice. It's just a fact that people tend to view the choices they've made as good, and the activities they do as important.

What do you expect to gain from a Master's degree? Do you want to have a deeper understanding of computer science, so that you can more effectively solve complex problems? Or are you hoping that it will impress people and increase your chances of getting a job / getting a higher paying job?

The problem with any degree is that it doesn't actually imply the ability to code effectively, or lead a team. A lot of people with degrees can't code worth anything. The first thing any real computer company will do in interviews is try to ascertain whether you can actually solve problems, write code, debug things, think independently, and so on.

I have a PhD in Computer Science, in the field of Operating Systems (which is a very practical, implement-it-and-test-it-on-real-hardware sort of field). Building my research prototype involved a ton of OS-level coding, and some pretty damn hard debugging. It also included a lot of deep thinking about fundamental issues, and exposure to a lot of really smart people whose job it was to have a deep understanding of what's going on. As a result, I feel well prepared to tackle complex real-world problems and implement a good solution.

But no one would hire me just based on my PhD. Everywhere I interviewed after graduation, I had to prove that I *can* code; and everyone I have subsequently interviewed, the degrees were only a mild interest; interviews were key to sort the wheat from the chaff.

So if you really find the class work interesting, if you're an abstract thinker, good at understanding and applying principles, and want to hone that capability with some extra classes, go for it. A focused time to study the theoretical basis of things can be useful. There's nothing more practical than good theory, in the hands of someone who enjoys both theory and practice. But if you're just looking to improve your resume with a couple of more years of slog-work, then I'd say go for work experience.

Re:Work Experience

[tvdbulck]

I strongly disagree, if you would like to obtain a high level function in a company at a later stage, your Masters will be an invaluable asset. And if you switch jobs in 5 or 10 years it will also make a difference on you CV. If you do start working immediately, make sure you end up in a job where you continuously learn (and not continuously do the same tasks for your company). That will increase YOUR value, which is the most important in the long run.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

It does.

When HR people who have at least a hint of what cs is about see 2 candidates for a job, first one with 2 year experience (which frankly isn't much) and another one with master's degree the choice is pretty much obvious. And it's the second one.

Re:Work Experience

[Ash Vince]

Experience is certainly more valuable than a masters when it comes to getting most techie jobs. However with the current state of the job market I would certainly recommend putting off joining it for a year. It is also worth studying your masters in order to keep the door open to being an academic even if you do not know that is what you want to do.

I would also recommend doing a masters with a business and management studies component as techies with business skills generally earn more than those without and will be considered first for management positions all other things being equal. Remember, IT is one of the most ageist careers to chose from so you need to think about an exit strategy into IT management from as early as possible. You might not need it but planning for the worst is always a good idea in all walks of life.

Re:Work Experience

[rve]

The OP should be getting relevant work experience while working on a masters.

A 25 yr old colleague will be expected to have about 4 years of work experience in the field. Whether they will be expected also to have a masters depends on the position. A programmer probably doesn't need a masters, but for a more responsible job, you'll need a lot of work experience to compensate for the lack of one.

Re:Work Experience

[javaxjb]

Really? In how many companies does HR choose the IT staff? In our company, the IT department managers review the resumes and (in addition to management) at least one person actively coding projects interviews the candidates. I'd bet nearly 75% don't have a CS degree, let alone a master's (and those that do are usually managers with an MBA, and an undergraduate degree in math or science). Business experience is way more important than the degree. So much so, that I really need to make a strong case to recommend anyone just out of school (even after one person we interviewed [a month before graduation] became one of our best team leads).

Re:Work Experience

[DreamsAreOkToo]

Masters isn't going to increase your starting pay grade or get you a job easier, work experience is going to do that. You need work experience now.

BUT here's the thing. When you're 10+ years into your job, suddenly that masters means *everything*. Expect to start hitting some barriers, like maximum pay-grade. You really need to do both, and you need to make sure you get work experience before you graduate AND make sure you get your Masters while you still can manage it.

My father is a really talented guy. But he's 50 now with a Bachelor's and is passed up on every promotion and pay raise. He's already at the top of the metrics for pay and title, he literally can't go any higher because of corporate policy.

Re:Work Experience

[Nursie]

Nope, it's really not.

I'm afraid that the GP is right. Whilst a degree is a foot in the door, you should only do a masters if you want to. It's not going to get you more money or the ability to skip past others.

Being intelligent, personable and demonstrating knowledge will win out every time, and in general the employment reflects that much better.

Re:Work Experience

[LEMONedIScream]

I agree that experience will trump all, but it has to be relevant, useful and challenging. Doing the same thing over and over for a few years won't put you in the same position if you're constantly challenged.

Other than that, the advice I was given was: if you want to do a PhD, don't do a masters; otherwise do a masters.

I figured that I'd rather do a PhD as it is at a higher level and would be something I'd rather achieve and can start in a few years.

Re:Work Experience

[antifoidulus]

Actually, you have to be careful because there are some terminal masters degrees in CS/EE etc, and even some good schools sometimes offer them. The terminology is a big confusing, and can differ from institution to institution, but generally a Masters of Science in Computer Science is not terminal, whereas a Masters of Computer Science is terminal. The difference seems to lie mostly with your thesis, Masters of Science courses tend to require a deep, academically rigorous thesis whereas Masters of Computer Science either has a test or project as the final requirement. As always, make sure you consult the school about your program before jumping in.

Re:Work Experience

[ray-solomon]

I suggest he does both. Get a part time job and keep going to school. He needs real world experience at this time. It will also help put his knowledge in perspective so he can concentrate on learning more efficiently.

Re:Work Experience

[Nursie]

I should qualify that with "if you're going for a career in software engineering". If you're an EE or somesuch then that makes life different.

Re:Work Experience

[Tony Hoyle]

Except you'll be two years behind on the promotion ladder and have to make that up... and exams don't mean shit once you've got 6 months experience - employers won't even *look* at what you studied once you have relevant experience under your belt.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that oneshould do masters only if he wants to. That is a general life policy :)

Dunno maybe market situation is different than the one here, but even browsing IT job offers now i can see that MSc is roughly equal to 3+ years working experience and BSC, so maybe he should do some research on that. In previous country I worked in BSc wasn't even considered when applying.

Obviously it all depends on master degree paths original poster can choose from.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

CS is an area were tool life cycle is very short. If you are not carefull, and don't have the theoretical grounds, you can soon have a lot of experience in an obsolete field, were you would have keep working.

MSc acquired knoledge can help to avoid this. However take care with MSc topic: select something you want to do. Don't think on it as
the work of a life, but as the start of a life.

I have gone for the MSc ;) .

Re:Work Experience

[worip]

This is not necessarily bad advice...

There is financial, experience and qualification implications in this discision:

Financially, it makes more sense to start working immediately. A person who studies full time for his/her masters will never make up for the loss of income during the 1 or 2 years it takes to do the masters, compared to someone who starts working right away.

Experience wise, the person who starts working immediately comes out ahead in raw experience count.

Your best bet is actually to work full time and study part time, that way you get the degree, get the income + work experience.

Re:Work Experience

[wrook]

This is right on, for programming jobs, anyway. I can tell you that while a masters might get your resume through HR (along with 150 others), it isn't going to mean squat to the people *actually* hiring you. I've hired many, many people and not once did I even think about a masters degree. The only hiring managers I knew who favored people with masters degrees were absolute twits (and there weren't even very many of them).

Another thing to keep in mind -- 2 years of academics is 2 years of not getting paid. It takes a pretty big salary differential to overcome that loss.

Re:Work Experience

[purpledinoz]

It really depends what you're interested in. If you have a specific interest, then I think you're better off getting a Masters in that specific interest. It will make it easier for you to get a job that fits your specific interests. For example, if you are really interested in DSP, then you should get a masters that relates in DSP. If you want to do chip design or something like that, you definitely need a masters (or maybe even a PhD).

I was in your situation a while ago, and I decided not to do a masters. In some ways, I regret it because I have really no specialization. But at that time, I really wanted to start making real money and pay off my debts.

In the end though, work experience is king. Getting a masters helps you a lot getting that first few years of work experience in the field you're interested in.

Re:Work Experience

[AB3A]

It depends on whether you're interested in a short or a long term investment, and whether you really like slinging code for a living. Some people might prefer a variety of jobs by being a consultant. If you really enjoy that sort of thing, you will find that a Masters degree will serve you well over the longer term. Even a PhD has potential.

Of course, you could always go to work today (assuming you'll find it) and get your degree later. Just don't wait until you're forty something, with a family to feed, or other things will take priority.

Another route is to get certifications. I used to scoff at such things, but as the work-force gets tighter and HR people have to sift through more and more resumes, the more letters you can add after your name, the better off you'll be. Note that this doesn't mean you actually know something. What it means is that you were exposed to the concepts. In fact that's what a formal education shows too. Never substitute education for ability or experience.

What I'm getting at is that you have entered a career where if you stop learning, you'll fall behind. A formal education is nice. But even if you choose not to go that route you can not continue without an ever present need for education.

Re:Work Experience

[Puff_Of_Hot_Air]

This may be dependent on the country in which you work. In Australia (from whence I come), there is no benefit to a masters degree whatsoever. In fact, there is a negative perception associated with a Masters for the very reasons stated in the previous post! People with a Masters degree expect a higher income, and are rarely any more useful than a totally green 3 year graduate (and less so than one who has been spending their spare time coding; someone who actually loves the code). Those who can DO. Get out there, and get some experience, don't waste your time getting bits of paper that just tell people "I would like some more money please..." In my experience (approx 8 years in the field), only very average coders ever had Masters Degree's (perhaps an attempt to compensate for average coding skills). Some of the very best have no degree at all! The thing that seems to separate the good from the great, is that the great guys never stop learning. They're the guys whose book-shelf is full, are showing you F#, listening to pod-casts. Your Master's degree won't mean squat in a couple of years. So don't waste your time.

Re:Work Experience

[purpledinoz]

I forgot to add, if you want to work in Europe, I definitely recommend a masters, regardless if you want to do it or not. In Europe, post-secondary education is cheap, so MANY people do it. As a result, there's a huge supply of people with an undergrad degree, so the undergraduate degree isn't as "special" as it is in the US. A masters differentiates you from the crowd. (BTW, this is just my observations as a Canadian working in Germany.)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to go into academics, it's PhD or bust. Terminal Degrees = Academia. Masters != Terminal degree in CS/EE/CE fields.

Unless you are one of the odd public-spirited people who have highly marketable qualifications but want to teach in high schools. I have a lot of admiration for the few really knowledgeable and intelligent school teachers in technology and science fields - they really do make a difference - but I would not like to be on a teacher's pay scale myself.

By 'academia' he means the university level. Pay there in the fields of science and engineering is similar to industry, because they're in direct competition for people.[*] But without a PhD you're nobody.

As for other posts in this thread, the GP is correct: for an ordinary industry job master's degree gets you more money and respect. Yes, you can self-teach or learn on the job, but you don't get treated the same, just like the difference between bachelor's and no degree at all.

Conventional wisdom is that if you want to maximize your lifetime earnings in IT, you get an MS.

Also, with all the current economic suckage, it might be wise to pursue an MS as a delaying tactic. You might not be able to get a job this year, and if you do the wages will be depressed. And if you start at low wages, you never catch up.

[*] Assuming it's a research university rather than a 'teaching college'. Also, many such jobs are 9-month contracts, so you only get 3/4 industry until you land some research grants that let you pay yourself for the summer months.

Re:Work Experience

[vlm]

Unless you are one of the odd public-spirited people who have highly marketable qualifications but want to teach in high schools. I have a lot of admiration for the few really knowledgeable and intelligent school teachers in technology and science fields - they really do make a difference - but I would not like to be on a teacher's pay scale myself.

I have relatives in the field. Multiple relatives in multiple districts. Generally, to teach HS and below, the only degree allowable is an education degree. A PHD in math will not be allowed to teach algebra, and a Nobel prive winning physicist will not be allowed to teach physics, unless of course they additionally have a BA in education. The HR drones would simply toss out any ex-college professor resume, unless they of course had the all important education degree. There are exceptions in areas of teacher shortage, like if you know Spanish or are willing to wear a bullet proof vest and teach in the worst inner city schools, preferably both, but even those exceptions require evidence of night school progress on an education degree. I cannot stress how much of a requirement an ed degree is... its not like programming where a degree gets you an interview but you can do just fine without one if you're good (err, good and lucky, I mean). No ed degree (or at least serious progress toward it) means no teaching job, period.

The teachers pay scale is actually pretty good in most areas, if you correct for legendarily good retirement and medical benefits, and historically high job security. Most "technical" teachers I knew, contracted during the summer for big bucks. Finally the odds of being outsourced as just a coding drone are somewhat higher than the odds of being outsourced as a kindergarten teacher. Also they get a lot of respect from most people below 18 and virtually all people above 18...

The main problems I hear, is the friction between getting retirement vs starting over in a good district, management so bad it would make a dilbert pointy haired boss blush, and the average IQ level of the "problem parents" must be single digits at best. I don't have relatives working with older kids... I guess they have a different set of problems to deal with, like drug use, pregnancies, drug dealing in school, gang problems, fights/shootouts, basically becoming the father/parents for the kids, basically they are social workers first, teachers second, and their skill area (computer guy, chemist, etc) third.

Re:Work Experience

[billsnow]

He's not an IT grad. He's a Comp.E.

for the love of god, slashdot, stop confusing engineers with sysadmins.

Re:Work Experience

[jez9999]

My father is a really talented guy. But he's 50 now with a Bachelor's and is passed up on every promotion and pay raise. He's already at the top of the metrics for pay and title, he literally can't go any higher because of corporate policy.

Your father should find a better comapany to work for.

Re:Work Experience

[billsnow]

but in all fairness to your degree, out of school, how many of the jobs you interviewed for were interviewing 4-yr degree candidates?

Re:Work Experience

[NastyNate]

As someone who has done quite a bit of hiring over the past few years, ranging from interns in college to senior level developers with 20 or more years of experience in the field, I will tell you once you have some significant job experience to hang your hat on, the difference between a masters and a bachelors is fairly insignificant. Hopefully you are getting some real world work experience now as an intern while working on your degree. The only time where the difference between a masters degree and a bachelors degree has made a difference in our interview process is in deciding between similar entry level candidates with little to no job experience. Also in hiring interns we will typically favor masters students over undergrad students.

Re:Work Experience

[microTodd]

And the way to do this is look for co-op or internship work while doing your undergrad and Master's. Then you end up with work experience and academic credentials on your resume.

Alternatively, after you get your bachelor's and get a job see if your company will pay for your master's. Many companies will do "tuition reimbursement" as long as its a relevant degree field and you make good grades. Its a lot of work but trust me, its worth it, and you should get it done now before you get married and have kids.

Re:Work Experience

[_ivy_ivy_]

IMO, the better investment would be an MBA. While it's not critical in your first 5-10 years out of school, it will become key to your ability to advance in the next two decades.

The master's degree in CE will make you a master technician. An MBA will allow you to lead teams of master technicians.

BTW, I have a BS, MS, and PhD in CE. I've spent the last decade working on my management skills in lieu of an MBA. If I cold do it over, and MBA would have been in the mix.

Re:Work Experience

[rlk]

Agreed (granted, from 20 years out of date). For the record, I have a bachelor's but not a master's degree.

My most valuable experience in college -- and this was MIT -- was my undergraduate work experience (as a sysadmin and -- more importantly -- systems programmer at Project Athena). More than any of the classes I took. That's not to say that they weren't valuable -- algorithms helped me learn how to analyze different approaches (more so than just the specifics of different algorithms) -- but actually working as a systems programmer in a UNIX environment is what actually tied everything together.

When I hired people (I was a manager about 5 years ago), the least important thing on someone's resume was their academic background. I actually helped hire someone quite senior (but fairly young for the level we hired him for), and after the offer went out my manager and I realized he hadn't stated any academic qualifications at all on his resume or his application. We looked at each other and shrugged. Didn't make him any less able to do what we needed, and he worked out fine. We do have guidelines that a master's degree is worth ~2 years of job experience, but what happens in practice is that promotions are based on demonstrated ability to do the work at the next level, and after the first promotion the exact amount of work experience is meaningless.

My personal opinion -- and again, this is based on my experience 20 years ago -- is that a master's in computer science is all but worthless, with one exception. Even if you assume that the 2 years spent translates into 2 years of salary increases (and ignore the fact that right now salary increases are nonexistent), it isn't worth it -- you're giving up those 2 years of base pay and getting nothing more from it.

The only exception I can really see is a 5 year program with a structured internship, like the VI-A (6-A) program at MIT. But that's more for the internship (which is real work experience) than for the piece of paper, and it's only one year more rather than two. But if you already have a degree, getting a separate master's in computer science/engineering just isn't worth it. For academia you need that PhD anyway. I suppose it's possible that there are some organizations that specifically want the piece of paper, but that situation's likely to be so bureaucratic that I wouldn't want to be in it at all.

Re:Work Experience

[Octorian]

That's ok. HR drones don't seem to understand that CompEng != CompSci either. Seriously, it used to drive me nuts. Undergrad CompEng (at a good school) is really a specialization of ElecEng with a focus on computer hardware and some CompSci classes. Of course due to the HR confusion, most of them seem to wind up going into programming jobs anyways.

Re:Work Experience

[Golddess]

In how many companies does HR choose the IT staff?

Not choose, but as I understand it, in the company I work with the resumes would be filtered through HR first and then be passed on to the IT department.

Re:Work Experience

[Octorian]

It got me more money. Seriously, when I got my masters I got a nice out-of-cycle raise. Ok, I probably was in the right place at the right time, had the right boss at the helm, and probably deserved the raise anyways, but it was the trigger.

Then again, I did do most of my masters part-time while I was already working. And not all companies reward finishing that in the same way.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

A simpler route.

1. Go to Oxford or Cambridge.
2. Graduate age 21 with a Bachelors.
3. Get a job.
4. Get your Masters upgrade (for about $20) seven years after you graduate.
5. Profit.

It worked for me.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd add on-
      look for a Ph.D. program. Particularly one where you could bail out with a Master's after 2 years if you don't want to do the full 4-6 year commitment.

      Why? Masters programs are things you have to pay for. You'll rack up an extra $50k in debt. Ph.D. programs (at respectable schools) pay you to be there (through teaching or research work). No debt, and you can usually leave with a free MS if you decide the Ph.D. route isn't for you.

The only reason to do a MS program is if your employer offers to subsidize it as evening classes. (Always worth it to take what benefits they offer, right?)

Re:Work Experience

[Bakkster]

In some fields, but not in CS. A masters doesn't get you more money. What gets you more money is experience, especially experience in the field you're looking for work in, and the ability to negotiate. There's just no point to extra years of school in CS, you learn on the job or through self study everything you'd learn in the masters courses.

Note that the OP has a Computer Engineering degree, rather than CS. As a Computer Engineer myself, I will say that there really is a lot you are able to do with a Masters that you can not do with a Bachelors + experience. Mostly because you can't get the experience without the Masters. One example is microcontroller and chip design. The big chip design firms won't hire a BS, no matter what.

So it's really about what you want to do, and when you want to get your degree. I have a educational reimbursement program at my company, which will allow me to get my Masters 100% paid for and a raise when I complete it. This is a good option if you want to take a short break from the classes, and make some money first. Really, it all depends on if you want to go into a field requiring a Master immediately, or find a company willing to train you. From personal experience, though, most EEs and CpEs I know end up with a Masters at some point.

Re:Work Experience

[LKM]

Depends on what job you want to get. Besides, getting experience instead of staying in school is a moronic trade-off. Start your own project. Contribute to OS projects. And get your Masters. Do both.

Re:Work Experience

[LKM]

Degrees absolutely do get you more money. There's no question.

Re:Work Experience

[odoketa]

This is only partially true.

Education will delay your earnings. However, given the current environment, your earnings may be delayed anyway.

More important, and I've had this conversation again and again with decision makers, is that the Master's degree is the new Bachelor's degree.

In the US, and in much of the English speaking world, university degrees are becoming more common. A Master's is a signal that you have put in extra effort, basically.

We recently hired a helpdesk position, and the HR drones were requiring a Master's. While this is an extreme example of HR going crazy, it doesn't change the fact that, before any calls, before any interviews, the non-Master's people were thrown out.

So to return to the post I am replying to, while you might benefit from earnings now, you might not, and in future, you will definitely want the second degree if you plan to earn anything.

For the first job, though, it probably isn't necessary, and taking a couple years off from school to see what the 'real world' is all about isn't a bad idea. It will also, if the degree means more to you than a sheet of paper, make the Master's program more useful to you, because you might have a better idea of why the stuff matters.

Re:Work Experience

[icedcool]

No. Getting your masters is bad advice. Work experience big time.

You need to know where your going to get your masters and on what focus. Whether its business, comp stuff, whatever, you need experience to know though.

Further more start your own business, and now is the time. There are so many people willing to work for peanuts its ridiculous.
Any company you work for will not bat an eye at laying you off, even if you've worked to build their company for 5-10 years.

The only winners are the owners.

Re:Work Experience

[Lumpy]

Actually a couple of places I worked at they had a "no masters" rule in HR. They figured that masters holders will not stick around long and will ask to top pay. Many masters holders will tell their bosses to go have intimate intercourse with themselves themselves without hesitation than the guy with a GED.

Many companies put the ability to abuse you daily far higher on the requirements list than education.

Re:Work Experience

[jellomizer]

It might lead to a faster route to a higher paying job. However do you calculate how much is loss in those 2 years. Tuition for 2 years not working for 2 years, that is probably about $100k (depending on location) loss that you need to make up. Going for work in the real life (if you want to go a path outside of academia) is preferable.
1. You get real experience and put some of your training in real life scenario and you find what type of work you like and dislike. Find real world problems so when you are ready to go back to your masters you now have a focus.
2. You can realize if taking that degree was a good choice for you. I myself got a CS undergrad and the way my life went and where I want to go in my like I am working on a MBA.
3. Real world lets you grow up a bit. Oddly enough things I always hated in my Undergrad are now much easier emotionally for me to do. As I was settled down and married when went back to school I could really focus on the work. And wasn't concerned about finding a girl friend or trying to be popular or at least well known... I am just comfortable with who I am and I can put my time and effort into the education part of school.
4. You are more useful after you get your Grad Degree. You just start work with your grad degree and no real experience. You will find yourself in a place where some of the people without that degree may be your boss or just technically better then you. As well many projects that you work on probably will not fully use skills leaned in your masters.

You should really peruse a masters degree but real life experience isn't a substitute for it. They are two different things.

Re:Work Experience

[flithm]

In some fields, but not in CS. A masters doesn't get you more money. What gets you more money is experience, especially experience in the field you're looking for work in, and the ability to negotiate. There's just no point to extra years of school in CS, you learn on the job or through self study everything you'd learn in the masters courses.

Untrue. As someone who has (in the past 3 years) both tried to find a job with a Bachelor's degree and then with a Master's degree, I have personal first hand experience on this.

First of all a job will never teach you what you learn in a Master's program and vice versa. The experience of focusing on one problem and becoming a world expert on it is hugely different that working in a commercial setting. Unless your job is working in R&D and doing academic research, the two things are pretty polar.

Which brings me to my next point. In computer science _especially_ not only will a Master's degree open up doors that would have never been there if you simply had a Bachelor's but the pay will be higher.

This is a world where every one has an undergrad degree, and it's also a world in an economic recession. The best way to differentiate yourself from your peers is to spend the two years, and prove you that you can focus on one thing and become super knowledgeable. You'll have your undergrad degree to show you can learn a breadth of topics, and the Master's will be something that sets you apart from the other applicants.

I do agree that spending the time on a PhD is a complete waste, unless you want to go the pure academics route (and become a professor, etc). The pay over a Master's degree is negligible, and it may actually close some doors since the perception is there that you'll want a lot more money.

That being said I also agree that experience matters more than anything. Spend every summer working in your field. Take advantage of co-op and internship programs. Work part time doing anything related to the job you eventually want to get.

And absolutely yes, if you want a Master's degree, get one. It will help significantly, and it will also get you more money.

Re:Work Experience

[Lumpy]

Here's a fact.

you want to get promoted? then go find another job. Honestly today in "corporate life" you NEVER promote from within unless the person was set up for it... I.E. I'll hire you at this, and then promote you in 6 months to the job I want you for. At least that is how it was at Comcast, Time Warner, and AT&T.. It's not what you know or what you can do, but WHO you know and who you are buddies with.

also if your DAD is really good at his job, he will never get promoted because he screwed up and became "indispensable" and will NEVER be promoted. His only way up is to start looking for other jobs. Mine was to do that loudly at work, I got 3 promotions by letting everyone I knew at work that I was looking for a new job. Showing up to work in a suit and when asked you say " I have an interview this afternoon" works wonders when you are the guy that get's verbal kudos all the time but never get's a raise or promotion.

Problem is that that tactic takes balls and confidence. You gotta be ready to follow through.

Re:Work Experience

[commodore64_love]

I cannot speak to CS, but in electrical engineering having a Masters doesn't mean anything. My boss all-but-laughed when I asked for a raise and then told me, "Having that masters degree doesn't mean anything here." The only thing a M.S. gains you is an extra bullet point on your resume, such that they will hire you instead of the B.S. candidate, but don't expect to earn any more money.

Employers are interested in skills, not extra college sheepskin. They want to know what you can DO and how fast it can get done.

Re:Work Experience

[vlm]

But he's 50 now with a Bachelor's and is passed up on every promotion and pay raise.

He must not be in computers/IT/etc, or he must be lucky, or he's really a "manager" instead of a "computer guy". Due to rampant ageism, and cruddy work-life balance issues, your career as a programmer is statistically over by the time you are maybe 35. So, you can earn big bucks from 22-35, or you can earn microscopically bigger bucks from 24-35.

To run the numbers, you're giving up 2 years of pay and probably paying high tuition for slightly more money in the remaining 11 years of your career. Meanwhile the industry shrinks every year as it moves out of the country, so even if you do get a job two (plus) years later, the end of the "American Programmer" is just two years closer. So you may not even get 11 years extra. On the other hand, the "second great depression" might be two years closer to being over in two years, maybe. Or maybe it'll just be two years worse.

I would think going for the degree would be worth it for 20% more pay. Can a masters swing 20% more pay over a bachelors? I think not, at least not here. You need to check the numbers where you live, of course.

Re:Work Experience

[AvitarX]

Your area needs to modernise it's teaching requirements.

Where I am, in a effort to get "highly qualified"* teachers the state allows them to get an MA in education while teaching simply by taking 5 classes, 2-3 of which are free, and the the rest very affordable in-state. The program is not too widely publicised, as the idea is that qualified individuals thinking about teaching will find it, but the people who simply "can't do" are not constantly having it advertised to them.

If someone values time off teaching is a job with fantastic pay (try getting anything reasonable at a traditional job with a 190 day work year. With 4 weeks of vacation mine is still over 230).

As a competent person

* term used by the state, it is defined as 30+ credits in a subject area.

Re:Work Experience

[d3matt]

To be fair, good luck getting a part time job in industry that's relevent to your field of study.

My two cents: find a company that will pay you to get your masters degree. Work for a year and bust your butt so you get a promotion the first time around then go back for your masters. A lot of companies will give you an automatic pay bump when you get a masters in addition to paying for your schooling.

Re:Work Experience

[0xdeadbeef]

It is easy to leapfrog over anyone whose knowledge is constrained by learning only what was necessary to complete a job.

College is four years of undirected play time. Smart people use that to make themselves smarter. The smartest don't even have to pay for it.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I would agree with this somewhat. True everyone is giving you their own experience and advice based on what they have done. So I will do the same. First I would base your getting hired and pay on experience. In my company experience is king, when they do hire someone they hire someone that can hit the ground running.

Also as far as education goes I did my BA degree while working full time. I then took a break for a while. I got programming certifications and database certifications. Then I learned while I knew a great deal about computers, I knew little about the actual business that I was writing code to support. When I was younger in my 20's I was sure I was right, now that I am in my 30's I am thinking the business is what pays my salary and to make myself more valuable I need to understand the business so I an use my computer skills to help the business succeed. So I am back in school again working on my masters however, I am focusing my masters and taking classes more on business, because I truly feel a geek that understands the business is a valuable asset.

However, I am not telling you to go into business. I am telling you to go out get experience, find your path then go for your Masters. You might find your Masters an opportunity to either focus more on a specific area of IT and you will have the experience to back it, or focus on another area that interests you as well.

Re:Work Experience

[jonadab]

> No ed degree (or at least serious progress toward it) means no teaching job, period.

It's actually slightly more complex than that: the *main* thing that you absolutely have to have to get a job as a primary or secondary teacher is a teacher's license in the state you want to teach in. There are additional things you may need to compete against the other applicants, particularly if there's a teacher surplus in the region (e.g., currently in central Ohio you pretty much need to be a laid-off teacher with years of experience, and there still aren't enough positions to go around), but the teaching license is the _base_ requirement. Without that, you can't even apply.

But yeah, one of the requirements for the license, at least in most states, is a degree in education. You also have to pass certain tests. If you don't major in education, you can't get the license, and the schools can't hire you to teach, except under certain special or unusual conditions.

Substitute teaching is different, though. You don't need any particular degree or license for that.

Re:Work Experience

[intheshelter]

Wow, your post seems to lack any insightfullness at all. First, a Masters might help in today's work environment. A bachelors seems to be the equivalent of a 2 year degree any more and more people are getting Masters. Simply having a bachelors doesn't mean you are any less capable, but you will definitely be competing against a LOT of people with Masters degrees in today's work environment. That being said, you can get the bachelors, get a job for experience (and to start paying off your school), and complete your Masters on the side (while hopefully having your employer pay for it).

Second, a Masters is not a degree that will get you anywhere as an academic. It's PhD or bust as a general rule.

Third, the iPhone rocks and is the best phone on the market today!

Re:Work Experience

[apoc.famine]

As an addendum, I have a Masters in Education. The "Education" coursework which you correctly point out as being the most important thing is garbage.
 
Most college "Education" courses are taught by people with a PhD in Education. How do you get a PhD in Education? By taking college classes in Education. And what do you do, after you take hundreds of hours of college Education coursework? You teach Education to people taking your college classes.
 
Notice anything striking there? Of all my "Education" professors, none had taught in a non-college classroom in the last two decades. Some never had. What made them *qualified* to teach me? A PhD in Education. Did they have anything useful to teach? No. How could they, when their entire background was full-time immersion in college-level educational philosophy? My "Education" professors were philosophers,(PhD) not teachers.
 
A good teacher will get nothing out of "Education" coursework, and bad teachers won't get anything either. Yet our entire system revolves around non-teaching-experts teaching teachers about Educational Philosophy in a college setting. It's truly mind-boggling that the nuts and bolts of teaching at a non-college level are never touched.

Re:Work Experience

[exploder]

The main problems I hear, is the friction between getting retirement vs starting over in a good district, management so bad it would make a dilbert pointy haired boss blush, and the average IQ level of the "problem parents" must be single digits at best. I don't have relatives working with older kids... I guess they have a different set of problems to deal with, like drug use, pregnancies, drug dealing in school, gang problems, fights/shootouts, basically becoming the father/parents for the kids, basically they are social workers first, teachers second, and their skill area (computer guy, chemist, etc) third.

Don't forget a total lack of academic freedom as you're forced to "teach the test". That's the part that drove me from my original plan to teach HS math and into a PhD program to eventually (with luck) become a professor.

Re:Work Experience

[outcast36]

This is the best way to do it. Find a job near the university that you want to get a Masters from. Work super hard for 1-2 years, then let them know that you want to go get your Masters. Work during the day, classes at night (or maybe your firm is more flexible). It will be a painful existence, but you will graduate without debt (your firm is paying for this right?), and some of your classwork will be more relevant as you have actual work experience.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I beg to disagree. Being a Computer Engineer with a Master's and some work experience, I can tell you that the pay is definitely better starting over a Bachelor's. I ended up with ~15k more with the MS (the recruiter messed up and put me through with a BS salary first and fixed it). What typically happens is your company starts you at a higher job "rank" than the BS new hires. That automatically puts you on a new salary scale (in my case it ended up be 15k higher as a rank 2 engineer). Eventually your BS peers can catch up with promotions and raises, since you are on the same overall progression track, but you are still starting off higher on the scale.

I do agree there are ceilings though without a MS. Many of the positions require a "experience" level before you can be moved into them. My company for example, requires X years to be considered for a promotion with a BS and X-Y years to be considered for the same promotion with a MS.

I have two suggestions. First, right now try to enroll in a dual-degree program if your department offers one. That is how I'm currently finishing my Master's. These programs allow you to do both degrees at the same time. For instance, I was taking graduate level classes in my third year of study. They usually take a little longer than your typical BS but nowhere as long as a true MS program.

My second suggestion is to let your company pay for more education when you land a full time job. Most companies offer to pay for their employees to take more classes. Some companies even offer "leadership programs" where in the course of the program you will earn a Master's.

Overall, it's really up to you. You just spend a few years working on your BS. Can you handle more schooling? Would writing a thesis interest you?

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

If you plan is to do true systems engineering (chip design, manufacturing design, etc) or work in high tech aspects of IT, then a masters in both CS and math should be persued, with minors in physics or drafting/engineering design as appropriate. Get an internship as soon as one is available. You should internt not less than 2 years with a fortune 500 company if possible.

If your intent is to work in IT, forget the masters... Start taking every certification test you can as fast as you can pass them NOW, while you are still in school. Start with CompTIA, then do your basic M$ and Cisco stuff, then some Unix/Linux certifications, then go back and finish off M$'s and Cisco's more advanced certifications.

Also, GET A JOB IN IT or an internship in the industry NOW!

Everyone posting here is right, ESPECIALLY in the first 5 years, experience means everything. Don't be fooled, the certifgications and degrees are still important (HR is told to look for certain things; MCSE, A+, etc). If you don't have the paper, they won;t even look at your application, but your pay grade is almost exclusively based on your field experience, how relevent that experience is to the job you are applying for, and how well you interview.

You'll probably be lucky to get $30K your first year out. You'll add $5K to that changing jobs 12-24 mnonths later. By year 5, with the right effort and certifications you can make analyst level in IT and be making $60K plus easy. It you're taking the IT track, keep your hands on SERVERS, not phones (stay off the helpdesk). Experience in IT is not measuered by years on the job, it;s measuered in years of hands on specific technologies. My current job asked me to detail my number of years of experience in 17 different IT aspects (Windows servers, AD, Cisco, DOD STIG, Linux, VMWare, Visio, Network Security, and more).

Re:Work Experience

[pyite]

More important, and I've had this conversation again and again with decision makers, is that the Master's degree is the new Bachelor's degree.

Maybe you were speaking with decision makers in companies who don't know how to hire people, but this is stupid thinking. There are plenty of people in very technical fields that have nothing beyond a BS and it hasn't hurt them at all. Smart people are smart people regardless of the degree they have. Your degree means next to nothing after your first job of consequence. The only people who will ever claim something different are ones who use their degree as a crutch. I say this as someone with a degree from a well respected institution, not a high school dropout trying to justify not going to college.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

If you're persuing upper management in IT (direcors positions) a masters will help, but you'll also need 5-10 years in the server room to get to that point (or similar experience writing code). You can easily get your masters after hours over that time period, and it should be in business administration, not IT related fields.

Right now, starting in the industry, work experience is by far the most important. IT admins (the people who will really be hiring you, not the folks in HR who simply approve of your resume to give to a real manager), know that what you learn in school is at best 2 years behind what's in the field, if not worse, and they also know that only 10% of what you were taught will apply to their network. Having hands on experience in the specific field of CS you're persuing will likely mean a $5K annual raise for your first 5 years.

Re:Work Experience

[Farmer Pete]

Go to dice.com. Do a search in a location you are interested in. Look at the job requirements. What percentage list Masters degrees as a requirement? If not many, I would not get my Masters. My understanding is that a Masters is a great way to get promoted, but it can actually hurt you to get hired. If I had to choose two people for a job, everything identical except for masters vs B.S., I would pick the B.S. most of the time. Why? Because I can pay him less and he wont feel (as) insulted. There is a thing called being "overqualified" and it is a place you do NOT want to be.

My advice is to look for a job, work for a year, and reevaluate. I don't know what a Masters will cost you in your neck of the woods, but around here (Michigan State University), it's somewhere around $18k a year just for the schooling. I wouldn't spend $40k on something unless I thought I needed it or that I would get my investment back. I was personally looking at getting a Masters in Information Security, but in my area, I've never seen a job posting for an InfoSec job. Closest is a Network Admin who also does security. So I decided to not do that for now.

Re:Work Experience

[evildopey]

A lot of universities and college actually offer field specific degrees with a teaching add-on. I picked out a fine Poli Sci degree with teaching add-on, and towards the end of the course work the Praxis I was administered, which sets up for Praxis II post-graduation and full teaching qualification up to high school. (My plan's to use it to teach while I work on a master's program, and then move up to college academia and instruct bachelor programs while moving towards a PhD.) Although from experience moving up the IS rank and file to management, there's a lot put into experience when you've got it to offer on top of a degree as opposed to "Oooh, I've got a bigger degree and less experience". Specially in a receeded market.

Re:Work Experience

[deander2]

you learn on the job or through self study everything you'd learn in the masters courses.

3 years ago i would have agreed with you, but then i paused my decade-long programming career to start my masters/phd. and i have to tell you, it's a misconception that couldn't be more wrong. the theory-side of CS i have learned (just from my master's classes no less) puts to shame the programmer i was at the end of my last full-time gig.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not right (at least not in Florida). In Florida, anyone with a bachelor's degree can teach, but they need to take additional certification courses after they get their degree. I can only assume that part of the education degree involves getting these certifications.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

That is only true in the mass of low-level jobs and in management. If you want to do anything that relates to innovation, lacking a graduate degree will mean there's a glass ceiling beyond which you'll never be promoted - unless you have the special skills (i.e., ignorance leavened with ambition) it takes to go into management.

Re:Work Experience

[Smidge207]

This is only partially true. Education will delay your earnings. However, given the current environment, your earnings may be delayed anyway.

More important, and I've had this conversation again and again with decision makers, is that the Master's degree is the new Bachelor's degree.

In the US, and in much of the English speaking world, university degrees are becoming more common. A Master's is a signal that you have put in extra effort, basically.

We recently hired a helpdesk position, and the HR drones were requiring a Master's. While this is an extreme example of HR going crazy, it doesn't change the fact that, before any calls, before any interviews, the non-Master's people were thrown out.

So to return to the post I am replying to, while you might benefit from earnings now, you might not, and in future, you will definitely want the second degree if you plan to earn anything.

For the first job, though, it probably isn't necessary, and taking a couple years off from school to see what the 'real world' is all about isn't a bad idea. It will also, if the degree means more to you than a sheet of paper, make the Master's program more useful to you, because you might have a better idea of why the stuff matters.

=smudge=

Re:Work Experience

[nomadic]

If you're lucky most of your education professors will have PhDs. Most education teachers have Ed.D.s I think, which are pretty lightweight.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

I'm 34. I've been in IT for 14 years. I have not yet hit my pay grade ceiling, though I'm getting close.

I'm not worried. At my current pay grade in 4 more years my wife and I will have no more debt except our house. I'll have pleanty of cash to go back to school and get that masters at that point. Based on my collection of certifications, many of the courses i'll need I can automatically exempt out of, many more I can take 1 test and pass the class, and several others my nearly 20 years of business expereince will expempt me out of. This assumes I'll actually take some classes...

Universities are typically more interested in simply getting your tuition, and if you qualify, and are above 30 years old, they'll typically be more than willing to take your money and still sell your seat in the class to another applicant. Universities generally don;t like putting highly expereinced business people in classrooms where their woried the student actually trumps the professor in knowledge. Many professors who recognize this where the university doesn't will simply give you the 4.0 for the promise you don't show up to class... Some universities will simply give you a masters in BA simply for having worked in management that long (and for a generous donation to the university of $30-50K).

Get your masters later, get the money now. Keep in mind, it;s not just the pay level now, it;s also that much more interest you won't be paying down later...

Re:Work Experience

[billsnow]

At all the college fairs at my school, the recruiters always ask me this when I state my major as Comp.E.: "do you specialize in hardware or software?". Gives me the impression that they have at least some idea of my field. The recruiters could be more than just HR drones though.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Never finished my college.

But I'm 27 and I have 11 years of experience in the field. You do the math.

That's why I work for HP and have a salary that tops my ex-classmates who actually graduated.

I've seen college degrees (and degrees that follow) make all the difference in the world, but in other professions.

I'm also highly nerdy, but with a really good set of social skills, which make me highly qualified to interact with customers, which by the way, is the quintessential skill in business.

Some GP said that if you're looking to differentiate yourself in a world of recession where everyone has an undergrad diploma. I disagree. To differentiate yourself, simply be great at what you do. And, in order to do that, you need to love it.

My mother was already working, I had 16, my bro 9, and she was pregnant with twins when she decided to start on her masters. If you love this field you've chosen, you'll get a job AND get to work on your masters, feel tired all the time, get little sleep and probably some white hair, but in the end you'll simply make it and be glad you did.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

First screening is always done by HR, unless a company is small or has very few candidates for the job.

What you are saying isn't untrue. It's just it isn't much worth if you can't jump over the first hurdle.

Re:Work Experience

[joelgmann]

A Masters is important, as is work experience, a well balanced mix is preferable when I hire IT people. Experience is important when starting and a Masters is required when getting promoted to management.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

I would debate this. In the US at least typical college age is 18-22 so by 25 you only have 3 years experience.

Some people start school a year early or carry enough AP credit to graduate at 21, but it is pretty common to graduate at 22.

Also it is becoming more and more common to graduate college in 5 years. For things like Engineering, at least in the school I went to, it was a 5 year program. I think computer engineering was 4 years because that degree was from the CS department and not the engineering department. But anyway if you figure a real engineering degree than you graduate at 23 and that is only 2 years experience. Anyway I'd say 2 or 3 years experience would be much more common than 4.

Re:Work Experience

[JPLemme]

I'm married to a teacher, and I wanted to expand on your excellent points.

The pay scale also needs to be corrected for the 16 weeks of vacation most teachers get. If they teach during the summer it's for a stipend on top of their salary. They earn their money, but the money is certainly good. (At least in the Northeast).

As far as the main problems, it's an interesting issue. In RI, at least, teachers can switch school districts without losing retirement benefits or seniority-based pay (the pension system is run by the state for at least some school districts). But because a teacher with 10 years of experience is more expensive to hire than one right out of college, it's not all that common for teachers to move around. So good ideas don't spread as rapidly as we're used to in the computer field.

As far as management, I wouldn't disagree that it can be bad. But the bigger issue seems to be that everybody's priorities are for themselves; in a company everybody benefits (to different degrees) when the company prospers, and everybody is hurt (again, to different degrees*) when the company does poorly. But in the school system everybody's rewards are based on how well they help themselves rather than the students. The school committee needs to hold the budget (and thus taxes) down or they don't get re-elected. The administration needs to hold costs down and test scores up or they get fired. The union leaders (teachers, janitors, bus drivers, cafeteria workers) all need to get as much for their union members as possible or they get booted out of office. The legislative politicians need to look like they're doing *something* or they get accused of not supporting education. For the most part, everybody really wants the children to get the best education possible, but their immediate rewards are rarely in alignment with that, so EVERYBODY is frustrated and feels that the system prevents them from doing what needs to be done. And unlike a corporation, there really isn't any one person in charge who can set a vision and coerce everybody to move towards it.

As for the parents, the problem parents are just as likely to be the ones with the high IQs. There are certainly low-end parents who do nothing at home to help their child succeed in school. But the difficult ones are often the highly-educated types with lawyers and advocates who know how to make the school system bend over backwards for their kid. They constitute another interested party in a giant zero-sum game.

As for the problems faced by junior high and high school teachers, I have no first-hand knowledge. I just know that I wouldn't want to spend every day working with kids who don't want to be there. :-)

*CEOs excepted, of course

Re:Work Experience

[wren337]

Spoken like the guy who didn't get his masters.

You definitely want to start the "years of experience" clock ticking as soon as possible. Think about getting a position somewhere and doing night classes to get your masters. Take classes that you're interested in, and take data mining or data warehouse classes even if you're not interested in them. Aside from what you learn in school, a masters degree will get your resume on the top of the stack. And those 10 times you switch jobs over your career make it worthwhile.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

If he wants to hang out in academia, he would need another 6 years for PhD. I say go for it; Masters is a great way to expand your horizons and I guarantee you you will make more money the moment you graduate. Everybody has BS these days....

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend just completed the TAP program at her University after she finished with her BS in Physics. It was essentially one more year of school to be given a slip of paper that authorizes her to teach Physics within this school district.

The way I understand it is that the way to go is to get your BS in Mathematics or Physics or whathaveyou and then take the TAP program.

That way when you go to teach you can't be dicked around by the administration. If you have a degree in Math you are only authorized to teach Math, you can't be forced to teach English. Where if you have someone with an BA in Education and a MS in Math you might have to teach English if the school needs you in that position.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

The OP should be getting relevant work experience while working on a masters.

A 25 yr old colleague will be expected to have about 4 years of work experience in the field. Whether they will be expected also to have a masters depends on the position. A programmer probably doesn't need a masters, but for a more responsible job, you'll need a lot of work experience to compensate for the lack of one.

Agreed. At my job with a government contractor, having a Master's helped me get promoted ahead of coworkers who had a year more experience than me. Depending on where you work, a Master's may or may not increase your pay. At my job, I went up 5k/year, immediately. You should seriously consider staying in school for a Master's.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a bit untrue. if you choose to work for "the government" and be subjected to the pay scales that exist therein, a masters is highly coveted.
 
many positions are opened with the stipulation that you MUST have a masters degree to obtain that position. i've seen many situations where 27-30 year old guys with masters degrees are getting high[er] paying management positions over guys who have been working for 20 years and know much, much more, but whom only have a bachelors. but their lack of a masters degree doesn't even qualify them to be considered.
 
i would get the masters. now that i have a few years of experience, it is time to go back so i can achieve the next pay grade quicker.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in the working field for just about three years now. I had to make the same decision, and opted to work. Luckily, I got a great job with a small company and make an above average salary for my experience. With what I know now, I know it would have been a complete waste to get a masters right away without working first. Right out of school, things that I take for granted now (source control, bug tracking, QA, peer review etc) were just things we'd been told about. Had I gone straight into a masters program and not having the real world experience to use these absolutely vital tools effectively I know now that my time would have been completely wasted. I feel that if I go for a masters now, I will be able to do so much more for myself then had I done it without my current experiences

Re:Work Experience

[mx119]

I got my degree in EE and started to work immediately. After a year I started taking graduate classes, not for a degree, but they had some courses they were directed at my field that I thought would be interesting.

After I got halfway, I decided that I should go ahead and finish. And while it took many more years than if I were full time, most of my MS degree is directly relevant to what I do.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Government and maybe defence work, perhaps.

General software engineering/programming jobs and contracts? Not so much. Some of the best paid contractors I've met never went to University. At the big corp where I work we have everyone from PhD's to degree dropouts all considered on the same payscale.

I don't know where you work, but that wouldn't happen at any of the companies I've worked for in my 10 years programming.

Re:Work Experience

[JPLemme]

That doesn't sound terribly different from my business school experience. But there were also good professors who consulted so that they could stay active in the field.

My (teacher) wife has continued her education well past her Master's degree and there is a surprising amount of interaction between the colleges and the schools. Most of the education at her level has been focused around a bunch of teachers exchanging ideas about what works while guided by a professor who helps them synthesize all the different ideas into new ideas and techniques. A lot of the classes have actually been taught by college professors in the students' own classrooms. (They would rotate each week.)

So while I agree with you, I also think you might be painting with too broad a brush.

Re:Work Experience

[SparkleMotion88]

You can earn a master's degree part time while you work. If you work for the right company, they will even pay your tuition. This is what I did when I graduated from undergrad. I got a job with a large defense contractor, then got a master's degree in 2 years of part time work (2 courses per semester, one course over the summer). The time commitment was tough (I had to give up most of my hobbies), but it was worth it. The master's degree cost me nothing (my company payed the school about 15k per year, though). On top of that, the top-tier school that I attended to get my master's had a "simplified" admission program for employees of my company -- I basically didn't have to apply at all. I'm not sure I would have even been accepted at this school if I had to apply and compete with other folks (my grades in undergrad were not stellar).

If I stayed at the same company after my degree, I wouldn't have gotten a raise due to my additional academic credentials. However, I started applying for a new job after I finished my degree and I got several offers at the next higher pay grade due to my degree. I ended up taking a job at a R&D center -- a place where I wouldn't even have gotten a job offer if I didn't have a graduate degree. So, yes, you can get higher pay or a better job due to having an advanced degree, but you may have to leave your current job to get it.

BTW, I am a programmer/software engineer and both of my degrees are in computer science. There are tons of companies/organizations out there that value programmers with advanced degrees.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

I'm a little confused. "The experience of focusing on one problem and becoming a world expert on" would seem to apply to a PhD program and not a Masters program. The Masters is basically just a bunch of classes generally not that different from undergrad classes except that they tend to have bigger projects in each class.

Then the end game of the program seems to be a project (bigger in scope than undergrad), a thesis (less common but still around), or you just take extra classes (not all places have this).

With no experience a masters may hurt you in a recession though, because who would you rather hire? The undergrad with no experience, or the masters with no experience who will be expecting more money than the undergrad?

Re:Work Experience

[DrLang21]

This is the HR barrier. The ultimate challenge in formating a resume is to get through the HR barrier. Sometimes I swear if the job description says "electrical engineer" if you dont have "Electrical Engineering" in your education section, you're screwed, even if you have 10 years experience as an electrical engineer.

Re:Work Experience

[COMON$]

Unless of course you work in a private school...no license required there. But that being said, a MS or PHD doesnt give you some innate ability to pass on knowledge. We all have seen enough evidence of that in undergrad...

Re:Work Experience

[bondsbw]

Many companies put the ability to abuse you daily far higher on the requirements list than education.

Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work. Good thing my MS keeps me marketable to companies who appreciate people with a strong, focused work ethic.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

This is incorrect, at least in most of the US.

To teach in HS in the US, you need a subject matter Bachelor's degree. If you do not have a degree in educuation, you usually have a couple of options.

While it differs from state to state, usually there are either a couple of courses and an exam to take, or you are essentially "apprenticed" while taking a number of classes offered by the district.

Re:Work Experience

[Sobrique]

Hmm, I need to find a University where I can get a good grade on a masters by 'not showing up'. The notion appeals to me.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

In most companies, who filters the resumes first? HR has a bigger say on the staff than you give them credit for. They are generally negligent on many technologies. They often filter resumes for key words.

Is someone a superstar programmer without a college degree? They will probably filter him/her out.

Did someone get a 4.0 GPA in CS and program in SQL Server/C# on their jobs? Well sorry you asked for a mid level candidate which they put as 5+ years Java experience.

Sure you choose among the candidates whose resumes you get. But HR gets to apply a filter before you even see them generally. Their filter tends to favor people who did the exact same thing as the job you are posting for in their previous jobs. Basically it leads to a lot of bored employees.....

Re:Work Experience

[Evanisincontrol]

I'm a currently working full time while finishing my grad degree in CS, and I'll confirm everything you said. At the end of my undergrad coursework (last year) I spent months job searching and going to interviews in my pretty new suit.

None of the offers I landed really satisfied me, so I spent the bulk of this year taking grad classes full time. Now, a year later in a worse economy than when I was last looking for jobs, I've been getting much better offers, even though I haven't completed my grad course work. I even found the job that I'm working at now which will pay me to take one night course every semester. They're paying for me to finish my degree, and they are then going to give me an automatic salary increase when it's done.

Do your master's degree, but be prepared to work your ass off. Undergraduate degrees are a joke, and have basically turned into a slightly advanced "are you SURE you're not an idiot?" test. Everyone can get an undergraduate degree these days -- Graduate degrees show that you're actually intelligent.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

You can get a Masters at night. It takes 1 year to 1 year and a partial semester to get a CS masters full time. At night it kind of extends it out to about 2.5 years (in my case).

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

For government jobs I've heard your pay grade is set by degree. But for most corporate jobs it is set by who you suck up to. And for managing companies a Masters in CS doesn't mean that much to them. An MBA is much more valuable. But it is more business experience rather than technical experience that gets you promoted to things like Directors, Vice Presidents, Managing Directors, etc... And the MBA provides more than a MS in CS.

Re:Work Experience

[EastCoastSurfer]

I think you have the right idea because I did the same thing. After undergrad I worked for a few years and then went back to school and got my MS part time.

It does not automatically mean extra money, but more education never hurts. If anything it shows that you have the drive and determination to complete another degree while working full time.

What I see in this thread so far are a lot of people who think that you either work or get an MS. That's just not it is done today. Most people work while they get their MS (and many work while getting their undergrad too). In the end experience + MS > experience.

Re:Work Experience

[Dare nMc]

from what I have been told, it is most important that the masters degree is specialized in something marketable, and something you know you want to work at.
IE your specialized degree is not as useful outside its specialty, and could make a company hesitant to hire someone expecting higher pay over a person with the experience, and ready to go.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, the sheer number of jobs that say "master's/3+yrs xp" just makes this an easy way to get the foot in the door. In this market, getting that first job might be hard, but getting into grad-school and getting the needed xp there is a much simpler process.

Also, the pay is about 10% more with master's, at least here.

Re:Work Experience

[davidshewitt]

Also they get a lot of respect from most people below 18

Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of cases of students not respecting their teachers. Many of them simply don't care and would rather not be in class. It's sad that some students throw away the effort of many caring teachers.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a couple of places I worked at they had a "no masters" rule in HR. They figured that masters holders will not stick around long and will ask to top pay. Many masters holders will tell their bosses to go have intimate intercourse with themselves themselves without hesitation than the guy with a GED.

Many companies put the ability to abuse you daily far higher on the requirements list than education.

Yeah? Well, I have a masters in CS and never experienced any of that. Why don't you go fuck yourself and your FUD.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

The differences between CE and CS are many. The OP said they're pursuing a CE degree, making these anecdotes about what the CS take would be rather meaningless.

I am very interested in hearing from people on the CE side of things. I'm in much the same situation as the OP (I'm finishing a CS degree and considering a masters in CE) and have heard arguments either way. I've also working full-time as a programmer for the past 3 years (hell is full-time school + full-time work) so the trade-off between experience and education is moot.

Re:Work Experience

[twosmokes]

Situations appear to be different in different areas of the country. In several districts in Florida (possibly all of Florida) a master's degree in your field is highly encouraged for HS level and it will come with a substantial bump in pay. In my high school we had quite a few PHDs teaching courses (sadly no nobel prize winners). No degrees in education are required, but a teaching certificate is.

I THINK they're starting to slide retirement plans towards glorified 401Ks and the health insurance plan is absurdly expensive if you want to cover anyone other than yourself.

As for pay scale - it's certainly a livable wage, but nothing comparable to what a person with a master's could be earning in another field.

Re:Work Experience

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Government and maybe defence work, perhaps.

Having worked Defense, I can say that a Masters is worth at least 5 years experience. And experience outside of defense/government doesn't count.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also a really good way to get fired. :)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

He's already at the top of the metrics for pay and title, he literally can't go any higher because of corporate policy.

And I'll never understand those policies. Some of the most intelligent people I have known didn't even have a high school education.

Re:Work Experience

[EastCoastSurfer]

With no experience a masters may hurt you in a recession though, because who would you rather hire? The undergrad with no experience, or the masters with no experience who will be expecting more money than the undergrad?

False dichotomy? I would rather hire the person with experience and a masters. Many MS programs are part time and geared around those who work. Show me someone who has the drive and motivation to complete an MS while also working full time and that's someone I want to hire.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I live, you can teach middle school and high school with whatever degree you feel like getting as long as you pass the certification tests in the area you want to teach.

Re:Work Experience

[BrotherBeal]

Alternatively, after you get your bachelor's and get a job see if your company will pay for your master's. Many companies will do "tuition reimbursement" as long as its a relevant degree field and you make good grades. Its a lot of work but trust me, its worth it, and you should get it done now before you get married and have kids.

I'm torn on this. I just completed an M.S. in CS while working full-time as a developer, and now that it's all over, I'm not sure how I feel about the decision I made to do the two concurrently. On one hand, the expensive parts of school were free (before my in-state residency kicked in and I paid my own much cheaper way). I've been getting a pretty good paycheck which has funded an engagement ring, much of a wedding, and a couple of years of my fiancee's college education. Now that I'm done, I have a graduate degree with 3 years experience instead of a graduate degree with 1 year. In theory this will help with my current job hunt. Even though the economy is down, I've got a couple of promising leads that I strongly doubt I would have without both the work experience and the graduate degree. While those leads are pretty much hot air until they turn into interviews / offers, I got them with only a couple of weeks looking around and so I believe I'm in a better spot than I was after college.

HOWEVER, I feel like I didn't get as much out of my degree as I wanted. I didn't have the time to spend really digging into courses that challenged me (namely a theory of computation course). I had to pass on a number of courses that would have been interesting, but couldn't be made to work with my professional schedule. I wasn't able to go to department colloquia or talks because they were during work hours. I had a funded summer research project that I wasn't able to take as far as I wanted because research is not something you can do "after hours". For the same reason, I had to abandon my thesis after a literature review because there wasn't any way I was going to be able to put out good work, and I thought it better to just graduate with a comprehensive exam to get the damned thing over with. I don't regret that decision, but I regret not changing the circumstances that led to it. As I look back, I realize that the time in school was far more rewarding to me.

On mornings when I just didn't want to get out of bed (sucky weather, didn't sleep well), it wasn't my job that made me get up. What got me out of bed was the thought of learning something new, of figuring out how some small part of the computer science world worked. Now, in one hand I've got an M.S. that I'm only superficially proud of because it does not represent the full extent of my abilities. In the other hand, I've got excellent performance reviews for a job I have no pride in and a bunch of clueless co-workers and managers who are congratulating me for "finally finishing college".

I guess the point of this Slashdot-confession post is that working full-time and doing an M.S. concurrently is not a decision to be undertaken lightly. I'm not talking about a lack of social life, as that's a relatively easy problem to solve. The problem is prioritization. Something will have to play second fiddle, and YOU are the ultimate arbiter of what needs to give if you do this. Otherwise, you'll wind up half-assing one or the other, and you may not like where that leaves you. Good luck, though - I wish you well!

Re:Work Experience

[jimbolauski]

A masters may help getting a starting position but not because of any education preference by HR, if your MS has a thesis requirement you will probably be working with people in industry so many times you will be able to get a job with them or they will refer you to someone else. I've only worked in small companies, most of the hiring we do is not done from the stack of resume's but from references by professors or colleagues. Later in your career a Masters will help with promotions, in most technical positions the bosses have MS or PhD's, very few BS run a team.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Your daddio blows!

Re:Work Experience

[Rungi]

The biggest problem in the school systems regarding Teachers is not what they know, it's how they teach. There are at least two Teachers in my HS District that would rather plow through the curriculum and berate students trying to understand than take the time to enlighten them. It's a shame...

Re:Work Experience

[BForrester]

Parent's statements are dead-on. My experience with faculties of education is identical.

These places only exist as a work venue for washed up professors, school board execs, and other hacks who've earned enough favours to spend the rest of their lives in overpaid semi-retirement.

Potential teachers either have the social and subject-based skills to teach well, or they don't. Teacher training is a pointless exercise in academic masturbation without the happy ending.

Re:Work Experience

[Octorian]

Yeah, they do now. 8-10 years ago, they certainly didn't know the difference.

Re:Work Experience

[evilklown]

As someone that recently made the decision, I have to agree with the general message here. A master's degree is a great investment, but it probably will not pay off immediately. There is an advantage and a disadvantage because you look like a more attractive prospect to some companies, but sometimes you look too good and it sets a psychology that they will have to pay you an exorbitant salary to acquire/keep you as an employee. It is going to come into play more when you are up for a promotion in 5 years or so, because someone with a master's degree looks much more appropriate for a management or senior position. I would recommend getting your master's if you really want it, as it is difficult to do a master's degree while working full time in the IT industry. The best thing to do if you decide to get your master's would be to work a part-time/co-op/intern position at a respectable IT company so you get the experience and the degree.

Re:Work Experience

[internerdj]

I have to agree with this. The CS field is still relatively young. We have bunches and bunches of self-taught people, so there is a huge community of people who think that experience is the end all be all. Some of those folks are mind-blowingly incredible and some we had to rewrite all their stuff after they left, but the thing is they all thought they were mind-blowingly incredible.

A BS in CS will get you what you need to know to do your job and learn the technical skills to do about anything in the CS field. A master's is about how to make up new stuff technically, how to make new algorithms, new processes, new operating systems,... You can learn it through experience but it is better to not ignore what has been learned by everyone else over the past 40 years.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree with this. I have a Masters in CS and it has done me zero-good so far. Employers seem to value payed-work experience and even (unbelievably) certifications a lot more. As others have said, it is Ph.D. or 'thanks for playing' in academia. I'm not sure how easy it is to get a job as a professor (or even a Ph.D. level job with a company), but I would guess it is not easy.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Spending 2 years on a masters does NOT give you an advantage in CS ... maybe in CE on the hardware side but definitely not on the software side.

Granted, learning advanced algorithmic gymnastics and the ability to formulate custom performance metrics and heuristics are nice skills to have, but they're simply not as important as having basic understanding of the some of the many frameworks out there.

I would work for a couple years first and then revisit going back to school.

After a couple of years, you will probably find you'll have a better idea of what you really want to focus on by that point.

Whether it be advanced technologies related to CS such as bio-informatics or, such as in my case, domain knowledge related to the programs you write and maintain (i.e. physics, engineering, biology).

Or if you really want to make alot of money, CMM from CMU :)

Over the years, as a tech lead with no masters, on several occasions I've had people with masters on my teams with the same mixed results as with people who don't.
I am pursuing a masters now, not in CS, but rather the domain I work with ....

Re:Work Experience

[bsdaemonaut]

Not exactly true. You don't have to have a certification to teach in a private school. Most public systems provide temporary certificates and there are plenty of alternative teacher certification programs out there. Yes, it'll usually involve taking some extra coursework, but not necessarily an entire BA/MAT/etc to get it done. That's assuming that you will be teaching in a field that you already have received a degree for.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at job postings.

I have yet to find a job posting that needs a masters over a bachelors. They all state "bachelors or masters in computer science"

As for this: "I do agree that spending the time on a PhD is a complete waste, unless you want to go the pure academics route (and become a professor, etc). The pay over a Master's degree is negligible, and it may actually close some doors since the perception is there that you'll want a lot more money."

hardly. Big companies want phd's, especially in research. Google LOVES phd's. Even microsoft likes them a lot.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Or, you could be like me and get your Master's from a giant-turd of an online University that spends their profit on naming football stadiums. They make the claim that their classes are better, because they are facilitated (not taught, because they aren't PhDs) by working professionals in the field of education. Every course I took facilitated by a public school teacher was an absolute waste of time, as they don't know how to teach education--they know how to push the buttons of adolescents.

I for one welcome the PhD in education teaching me about education, as opposed to trying to teach me how to teach. There are lots of jobs in education (like mine, software simulation training development) that require a strong understanding of education but don't require a single ounce of teaching skill. Leave teaching teachers how to teach to those 4 year plus 1 BA in education degrees.

Re:Work Experience

[mdwh2]

Get your Masters upgrade (for about $20) seven years after you graduate.

For me it was three years and one term after I graduated... (more precisely, I believe it's six years after the end of your first term there).

Re:Work Experience

[chickenandporn]

Bad advice.

Work experience can be faked, and everyone knows that. Degrees are harder to fake.

Now's a bad time to limit your options to "can only work in home country". Internationally, I see more countries require higher degrees to get work visas.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Lightweight, eh? Care to elaborate, or are you just projecting your (most likely) heavy science background and biases into your post?

I'm seriously tired of the disparaging remarks towards education degrees. Sure, a four-year degree isn't much (in any field, if you ask me), but any work in any post-graduate field is an accomplishment in my book. I don't understand rocket science, but I notice the rocket scientists I work with don't understand the art of instructional design either.

Re:Work Experience

[SQLGuru]

Here in Texas, I know plenty of people where their BA is in the field they wish to teach. Then you get an alternative certification (the Education classes part of the Education degree, basically). You are limited in that you can only teach in the area you are qualified in (Math, English, History, etc.) unless you get a General certification, but my assumption is that you got the degree in that field because of your interest in the field.....

My wife's degree is in Psychology. She got her alternative certification for 4th-8th Generalist. She can teach any "core" class (Math, Science, English, Social Studies) for those grades. She's also got Special Education certs, she can teach Special Ed. at any grade level. She'll start her Masters soon (probably School Counceling or School Administration).

As for the OP's question, I haven't seen where a Masters makes you that much better off than your cube-mates in the business world. It might open the door quicker and get you a few thousand more in salary (less than 5K), but when we are looking to hire, we put more weight on relevant and valuable experience. We almost never look at the education section of the resume.....(I've evaluated candidates for multiple companies that I've worked for). Besides, many larger companies have education reimbursement (and the "reward" of a bump in pay when you get it). I had a friend get his MBA all on the company's dime and was rewarded with the bump in pay when he graduated. To me, that's the best option because you get the experience you need and the degree you desire. I'll probably go the education reimbursement route to get a graduate degree once my wife finishes her Masters.

Re:Work Experience

[ausekilis]

What gets you more money is experience, especially experience in the field you're looking for work in, and the ability to negotiate. There's just no point to extra years of school in CS, you learn on the job or through self study everything you'd learn in the masters courses.

I whole-heartedly disagree with your statement. As someone that has 5 years "in the field" experience in CS and has been working on my Masters for 4, I can honestly say that the two go hand-in-hand. After applying to a few jobs at USAJobs, for the FBI and other gov agencies, you'll routinely run into a questionnaire that asks about both education and real world experience.

Digging a little deeper into that questionnaire, they ask how many years have you worked on a Masters (up to 3 I believe), and how many years of real world experience you have (no limit). They use those numbers in combination to determine what your pay grade will be for a particular job. Doing a couple of interviews after those applications further enlightened the subject. I found that if a person has a masters, that makes them more marketable as opposed to someone that does not. If the sum of the years of Masters and work experience are the same for two people, the one with the higher education gets looked at more.

There is a point in extra years of CS. At least in my school the Master's program is much more taxing than anything I did in undergrad or on-the-job. Those more advanced classes helped my understanding of those harder problems (image processing and pattern recognition) and low-level tricks (advanced OS classes) that normally get a "oh by the way, this is useful here" gloss over.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

HR is an alternate reality. Some job posting has "requirements" that are rigid, and some other "requirements" are there just to give them enough wiggle room to pick a lesser-qualified candidate over another (as in, my cousin needs a job, so I'm going to make these requirements impossible to be met by anybody). Still, I work at a software company and when our jobs have a "Masters degree" requirement, all the experience in the world won't even get you an interview. There's a reason HR has these rules. If anyone understands them, I'd like to hear your take.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

No disrespect, but I would say that the opposite is true. A Masters is going to get you more money at the front end (will it pay for itself is the question.) And my advice, is stay away from companies like the one this guys dad works for. I would guess that it's a government consultant, or government itself, which puts no weight in actual ability. There are some good responses here, but take what you need out of them. Are you absolutely sure this is what you want to do for your entire career? (This is when your focused studies would be appreciated) I would say get out, start working and see what you enjoy. You may want a masters, but will it be in Computer Engineering? Maybe you'll want an MBA focusing on Engineering Management, or Communications Engineering (or some other discipline), Systems Engineering, etc, etc.

Re:Work Experience

[fish_in_the_c]

All of this is highly variable from state to state. Last time I looked Florida would allow you to start teaching if you has a BS in the subject area while they paid for you to finish the coarses nessary to be certified as a teacher.

Re:Work Experience

[terjeber]

Masters is the highest route for payment in a professional environment.

Drop the masters. In CS it is useless unless you want to teach. Get some experience. Put aside some money. Find out what you want to do after you tire of being a code monkey - I can assure you, you will tire of it. Some people tire pretty fast given that most software development in the corporate world is mundane and repetitive - how many web-based Oracle applications can one person enjoy developing?

Once you know what you want to do when you are tired of being a code monkey, get an education that pushes you in that direction. Want to be a pre-sales engineer, get a business degree so you speak the speak. Want to become a Project manager, get a cert. Want to become a Product Manager get some marketing education.

Diversity and utility is how you make money in the computer industry. Outside of the teaching crowd, a Master in CS is probably the most useless degree there is.

Re:Work Experience

[ausekilis]

The only thing a M.S. gains you is an extra bullet point on your resume, such that they will hire you instead of the B.S. candidate, but don't expect to earn any more money.

Do a quick look at the national labs (Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, etc...), or any of the large corporations. The labs in particular will hire a M.S. for ~30k more than a B.S. What they won't do, however, is hire a B.S. then give them the M.S. salary once they get that piece of paper.

Re:Work Experience

[elnyka]

>> I'm a little confused. "The experience of focusing on one problem and becoming a world expert on" would seem to apply to a PhD program and not a Masters program. The Masters is basically just a bunch of classes generally not that different from undergrad classes except that they tend to have bigger projects in each class.

This is only true if the master program sucks. A good master programs gets you started to be a domain specialist (specially true if you do your grad work in CLOSE collaboration with a funding industry/company in a subject that has real ROI for it.)

You can treat a MS as a bunch of classes, or dibble into the elegant mysteries of finite state autama. Or you can use it to get internships, do independent studies in the latest technology (.ie. a survey of current Java-based tools for enterprise computing), network with point of contacts with the companies and industries funding your (or your advising professor's) research program, and taylor your master thesis to something of immediate applicability to some current slice in the industry pie.

It's all about what you are capable and willing to make out of it.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

The "HR barrier" is pretty simple. If the job requirement says "Masters in Computer Science, or equivalent required", then you should probably have an MS Comp Science. I've been screening candidates lately for a low level media production position, and it's amazing how many people feel entitled to apply for a job they have no qualifications for. "Four years or more" experience means you have to have, four years (or more), otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time typing the requirement.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

This is dead false. My company only considers engineers with an MS or PhD.

A research degree shows you can work independently and get results with a minimum of oversight.

Re:Work Experience

[terjeber]

As an addendum to my own posting saying "Don't get a masters, I have to add, "unless you want to work for the government. Then again, why on earth would you want to work for the government?

Re:Work Experience

[NitsujTPU]

I think that work experience is quite important, but a masters degree is generally a 1 year or 6 month add-on, depending on the route that you go. Nobody reading your resume is going to care about 1 year of work experience.

Also, at many companies the IT and programming staff are two different groups entirely. I'm a PhD student, but I have friends from my masters program who started out with 6 figure salaries. Though this is not the norm, most of them did start out in the high 5 figure range.

Re:Work Experience

[SQLGuru]

When it comes down to "brass tax", degrees (or certifications) don't mean anything. I've known plenty of [insert certification of the day] that knew their stuff and just as many that didn't. I've also known plenty of people without [insert certification of the day] that were good (and plenty that weren't). I think, because of the type of people this field attracts, that's the general feeling......we'd rather be surrounded by people that know their stuff and don't really care about degrees and certs. Certs are for the non-tech people, not the tech people.

And I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Education Reimbursement as an option. Get the experience and let the company pay for your Masters. Where I've worked, completing the degree got you a bump in pay to go along with it.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

dont work at Comcast, AT&T wireless or Time Warner.

They pride themselves in employee abuse.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

It's not going to get you more money or the ability to skip past others.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! My wife and I both have Masters degrees, and we both started at much higher pay tiers than our contemporaries. The key to "tiers" is that, while we may have the same job titles (software test engineer II, for example), our base salaries are higher than other software test engineer IIs with less education). My wife makes $15k more a year than her coworkers with Bachelors degrees, and I make $25k more than mine, both of us have been with the company less than 2 years.

So after you start at a higher pay because of your higher degree, you are also closer to the front of the line for the next promotion (assuming you aren't a complete loser at work). Most promotions require the next level of education as well (or a hell of a lot of experience), so the person who started at a higher tier AND already has the education requirements will be more likely to get promoted.

Re:Work Experience

[qdaku]

Masters vary by country. I have found a Masters in North America is a very different beast than a Masters in Europe or Australia. Some places it means just a year or two of pure coursework. Some degrees are like that. Some places it means few classes, but a hell of a lot of research (thesis). It is not a well-defined term

Personally, for me, my masters got me a pay raise (compared to when I shopped for a job before I did my masters) and the pick of the litter for jobs from the companies where I live. Then again, I did a thesis and very few classes, which got me some skills that very few people with an undergrad would be able to get (some of the advanced modelling software I learned is a) expensive b) time intensive --so no job is really going to pay the money to handhold you the 6 months it takes to learn how to use it on even a basic level).

The other part of the masters is the life experience. The school and learning was fine, but the real great part was putting my life on hold for 2 years, starting over in a new city, and finding myself with a shocking amount of free time. Sometimes the masters was way more work than a regular job, sometimes there were lulls where hey, why don't I just piss off and go skiing for 2 weeks straight. Lots of fun times, lots of great people. Don't discount the social part of a masters. You're poor (science research doesn't pay well) but it was a lot of fun.

Re:Work Experience

[foniksonik]

If his father has a house, a wife and a gaggle of teen age kids to provide for he better live in a major city... cause otherwise there may not be another company close by worth working for.

Relocating a mature family is not an easy decision to make. It is possible but it becomes a pros/cons thing and it may be that the cons out weigh the pros even when there's a substantial pay increase involved.

Re:Work Experience

[pwfffff]

And yet people like you love to put things like "At least 4 years Android development experience" as requirements.

Re:Work Experience

[cool_story_bro]

the people who do that at my work get handed a cardboard box for their things. It doesn't matter WHO they are or HOW good they are at their job (unfortunately)

Re:Work Experience

[SQLGuru]

I think he's counting internship experience in that figure.....for that matter, I had relevant work experience after my Sophomore year in college. I wouldn't say it was a "year", but that summer, I worked at the local paper mill in their Plant Engineering department. Worked on a Core (think really big paper towel rolls) Cutter project that won several innovation awards in paper industry magazines.....I wrote the user interface and interfaced with a PLC (programmable logic controller) that would cut the cores to specific sizes. (This was way back in 1992.)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get a masters in computer engineering to be part of the IT staff. Sorry.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like all the more reason to get the Masters. There may be fewer jobs, but at least they won't treat you like sh!t.

Re:Work Experience

[pwfffff]

Anecdote vs Anecdote WHO WILL WIN?!!?!11

Re:Work Experience

[OldProgrammerDude]

This is bad advice.

Masters is a very good idea. I got an MBA...It was a cake walk. It allowed me to job hop all the way through my career. I'm sixty now. I wouldn't change a thing. You also learn more about how business works. That can lead to management much faster.

Re:Work Experience

[fabs64]

In every company I've worked for these two people wouldn't even be applying for the same jobs.

Masters would be coming in through the grad program, 2 years experience would be an experienced hire.

Experienced hires get automatic preference and skip the low-pay probationary period.

Re:Work Experience

[NetNinja]

No the problem is you can get fired. You better have something lined up and if you have to beg to get a raise then they don't value your expertise or you. EVERYONE is replaceable.

People love wasting your time. I walked out of 2 interviews and 1 job after they didn't promise me what I wanted. I took vacation from my other job to see if I liked it. 1 week was good enough to tell me they were full of shit.

Re:Work Experience

[VanHalensing]

This really depends on where the corporate ladder goes in the company usually. Yes, without the masters you may not be able to go any higher in actual engineering and R&D, but if the goal is to be in management one day, either a masters of business or a lot of project head experience and departmental experience along the way will make the most difference and let you progress. At some point everyone hits the top pay grade for a certain job, and yes, if you limit yourself to certain career paths from there you will eventually stagnate. If you have lots of leadership experience and are good at your job and are interested though, you shouldn't ever get stuck, unless your company is just not very bright.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

But if I prove I can "DO", and I add a post-graduate degree to my arsenal, my boss better pay me more or I'll take my skills somewhere else. If I can't renegotiate my salary with a degree, then I'll go to another company offering a higher position that is looking for the higher degree. If this sounds like I might have just gone through this exact scenario, you'd be right. And for the record, I still work for my old company, and I got a raise. Seems the value of a degree is actually a little higher than many of you 9-to-5ers want to admit.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

A programmer probably doesn't need a masters, but for a more responsible job, you'll need a lot of work experience to compensate for the lack of one.

Could you explain more on this sentence? What do you mean by a more responsible job? I have been in this industry for 8 years as a programmer - and did not see a more responsible job as such. We designed and implemented complete software solutions. Could you let me know what do you mean by - more responsible job - ?

This is not a flame bait- I am seriously asking because I want to know whether I am missing out on an opportunity.

Re:Work Experience

[DrLang21]

And yet I've had HR people tell me that when they say 5 years experience required, they really mean that they'll consider applicants with 3 years experience. I should also point out, just because someone doesn't have a degree stating "Computer Science" doesn't mean that they are not more than qualified. This is especially true in tech fields. When you say you are looking for an engineer with a BS in Electrical Engineering, are you going to toss out the mechanical engineer who's last 5 years of experience was performing electrical engineering roles? This is exactly why I was advised to put my education section dead last in my resume.

Re:Work Experience

[PsiCTO]

He's not an IT grad. He's a Comp.E.

for the love of god, slashdot, stop confusing engineers with sysadmins.

Thank goodness, finally a thread that starts with the core issue. I believe the question encompasses the trade-off between further education and earnings. I can only relate that to my own experience.

As a Computer Engineering grad I chose to stay around for a Masters (though in a field of applied engineering) out of interest in further courses and to see if I could succeed at it. It was partly a question of figuring out what I was best suited to. However, my plan was to definitely get real-world experience thereafter and see if I could hack it in industry. I did that for a few years after the M.Sc. and then wondered if a Ph.D. was worth doing. I knew I could fall back to a job in industry so the risk was minimal (also wasn't married with kids at the time).

I've always thought an M.Sc. was like an intro to research, while a Ph.D. required passion for it (or a specific problem). You gotta have the passion to finish a Ph.D.

Professors are always keen to see students do advanced degrees (partly) because they are rated on the number of students they churn out. Being cynical, that's why it's hard to fail a grad course ;-) Grant values are tied to # of students.

Last, I found that by doing extra degrees and varying my jobs every 2-4 years, I've acquired some very broad experience (from embedded/server level software through digital HW to RF and on to R&D management). This allows me to consider all kinds of jobs with good qualifications in hand.

If varied/broad experience is what you want, consider the above. But if not, there's nothing wrong with focusing on what you have and carving a strong career in a narrower domain.

BTW, the money may or may not even out, depending on your opportunities. Is money important to you? then start earning and saving ASAP, and maybe start an Apple/Google-killer...and give me a call if you need help ;-)

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

I found my masters to be NOTHING like my bachelors. The masters degree plan focused on a problem statement in the first class, followed by 18 months of classes and personal research that focused on the problem statement, culminating with published research. Undergrad was just a bunch of garbage liberal arts classes that were completely unrelated to anything other than being in college.

Re:Work Experience

[timeOday]

Interesting stuff! But I think applicable in most jobs, not just teaching. For instance:

the bigger issue seems to be that everybody's priorities are for themselves; in a company everybody benefits (to different degrees) when the company prospers, and everybody is hurt (again, to different degrees*) when the company does poorly. But in the school system everybody's rewards are based on how well they help themselves rather than the students... unlike a corporation, there really isn't any one person in charge who can set a vision and coerce everybody to move towards it.

Where do you work that self-interest aligns with the corporate interest, and people take the CEOs "vision" seriously? Where I work it is all fiefdom-building.

Re:Work Experience

[Tyr_7BE]

"Masters is the highest route for payment in a professional environment. Just think of this as a 1-2 year pay increase for the investment."

Or you could spend the 1-2 years working and get the 1-2 year pay increase anyhow. I've worked with a lot of people with masters degrees. It has never made a lick of difference once you get out into the real world.

Re:Work Experience

[Synchis]

I disagree.

Your personal experience aside, let me give you a window into mine:

I have college education. No undergrad, no masters, no university of any kind. I did an accelerated course that crammed a 3 year program into 1 1/2 years.

I have been working in the field for almost 10 years now, am making great money, doing what I love to do, and have never had any regrets.

I personally believe that you should do what makes you happy. If you love the academics of it, go for it, do your masters. But don't do it because you think it'll give you an edge.

In the long run, if you get an edge because of it (maybe 5% of lucky cases) then great, but if you don't (perhaps 95%) of cases, then you'll be left with a whole load of student debt, and a feeling that you've wasted a lot of time and money for no real gain.

But that's just me 2 cents. :)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a couple of places I worked at they had a "no masters" rule in HR. They figured that masters holders will not stick around long and will ask to top pay. Many masters holders will tell their bosses to go have intimate intercourse with themselves themselves without hesitation than the guy with a GED.

Many companies put the ability to abuse you daily far higher on the requirements list than education.

They are actually doing you a favor by not hiring you since that sounds like a place that you do not want to work in the first place.

My advice to the poster is to get a masters degree. I have one in Computer Science and it has greatly helped my career.

Brian

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Well you got one thing right and one thing very wrong. First, most companies do pay more for a masters over a bachelors, even if both candidates have zero experience. That's the magic of HR metrics. When you get into contracting-land, companies have to have a specific percentage of PhDs, masters, and 4-year college grads to be competitive. If you can't win a contract, there's no point in having a bunch of highly experienced (but uneducated) techs.

You are VERY right about getting a masters while you still can manage. For most people, this is when you are young and dumb. Most of us move beyond living in a one bedroom apartment with five of our friends and driving a 10 year old beater car because that saves money for the case of Natural Light. Get your masters while you are young and poor! As soon as you start working, you'll rarely find time. You'll get married, you'll get a mortgage, you'll buy two cars, you'll have a couple kids. Then one day when you are 35, you'll realize "had I just stayed in school for two more years when I was 23, I could have been DONE with school forever".

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Whilst a degree is a foot in the door, you should only do a masters if you want to. It's not going to get you more money or the ability to skip past others.

In the educational field (at least in Alabama) a Masters degree will get you more money.

I have a BS and am (more or less) the CTO for my system. After a 20 year break I made the decision to go back for a Masters degree and have just finished it. My cost was approximately $27,000.00. Once my system's HR does their thing I will get an immediate $10,000.00 per year pay increase. When I ultimately decide to retire (with at least 25 years in the retirement system) I will receive an additional $5,000.00 per year over what I would have received had I just kept my BS.

--- stj

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

I wish I were so eloquent, in such few words.

Re:Work Experience

[gfxguy]

As someone with a masters degree, that's just plain WRONG, especially if you want to specialize in something (I did graphics). A BS is generally a pretty generic degree, an advanced degree shows generally shows some specialty. If you actually get a job in that related field, then it's a very good money earner that can easily pay for itself over a lifetime of employment.

I had friends who went right into the field after getting a BS and I stayed on to get my MS; I got a job I liked as opposed to just getting a job (because I specialized in what interested me), and I got paid more my first year than they did; after ten years, I'm making a LOT more (10s of thousands) than they are.

Obviously just because things worked out for me doesn't mean it'll work out that way for everybody, and I also worked part time doing scientific visualization at a research center at school... so I was getting practical experience, too, but I don't think it's necessary if you've gone off on your own and done practical application of your knowledge and have something to show for it.

Re:Work Experience

[Maxo-Texas]

I went with work experience.

The resulting pay is about the same without the additional debt.
The type of work is probably less interesting (working for a business as a manager instead of a consulting firm).

My computer science B.S. opened some doors-- I was able to easily learn java and get assigned to the new things which lead to project management which lead to low level management.

What you do *not* want to do is graduate without any experience. You must intern or get a 3.75 or higher or you will have an extremely tough time finding employment thru late spring 2010.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

People like me? No, people like HR. I don't get it either, but that doesn't make it any less true. If a company doesn't deems 4 years of Android experience a must for that position, then why would they go through the trouble of writing it?

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

gosh it pretty much sucks for the rest of the students going into that school... a professor who teaches shit while the external world is way ahead and probably not using those technology anymore. well anyways its been that way.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Did you miss the part where I said, "or equivalent"? That is the huge catch-all that HR throws in there so they can cherry pick a lesser qualified candidate over more qualified ones. It's also the way family members and golfing buddies get jobs that they aren't qualified for.

Re:Work Experience

[nametaken]

This is right on, for programming jobs, anyway.

That's an important distinction that we're not making a big enough point out of.

There are a lot of programmers and techs here saying exactly what I would. However, there are a number of other positions that would pay more for someone with a masters, or even require it.

Re:Work Experience

[nametaken]

Sure, it very much depends on what you do and where... something nobody is really talking about.

Re:Work Experience

[GargamelSpaceman]

I graduated with a BA in Math with a minor in CS. Looking back I see very little I did relative to the whole that helped me in programming jobs I've been paid to do except having the degree in the first place to help get my foot in the door. ( I have the sort of personality that I don't get my feet in doors very easily at all, so it was probably 100% necessary for me. I spent a year repairing PCs after I graduated. )

Here's an abbreviated curriculum with some of the classes I took, and some things I picked up over the years on my own that could have been classes. The curriculum is designed for someone with some aptitude.

* indicates I've never taken the class.

• CS 101/CS 102 ( learn about data structures, modular programming, object oriented programming, write some programs in a currently used imperative programming language. Java is OK for this. C++ or even Perl would be ok too.
• 1 Functional Programming 200 level class.(Scheme/Haskell/or similar)
• *1 Logic Programming 200 level class. ( Prolog, Mozart/Oz )
• How to do a Math Proof. I took such a class, it was simple arithmetic proofs, and also some interesting things about infinity. Not required for computer programming ( though some results are nice to review and have in mind since integers are used so much in computer programming such as for loop counters and array indices ) The real reason for this is because it is a prerequisite for:
• Theory of Automata ( DFAs/NFAs/Pushdown Automata/Turing Machines/Languages/Grammars/Regular Expressions ).
• *Intro to Unix. How to use a flavor of unix, basic commands ( ls/chmod etc ) and also many tools such as make/vi/emacs/cvs/the c compiler, and linker and some simple c/compile and install downloaded tarballs and troubleshoot them, some shell scripting
• *Intro to Unix part deux. More of this kind of stuff. Set up a network, get it interoperating with windows.
• *Intro to Databases and SQL. They're everywhere. You ARE going to use them.
• *Internet Programming ( HTML, HTTP, WebServers, Write a Web App )
• *GUI Programming. Learn a bit about programming native GUIs. Pick one.
• English ( how to write an essay which translates into how to write an email
• Four elective programming classes (practice practice practice )

This would be doable in 3 semesters rather than 4 years if it weren't for prereqs. I'd spread this across 4 semesters ( 2 years ) to give the brain a break.

• First semester: CS 101, Intro to Unix, English, An Elective
• Second semester:CS 102, Intro to Unix Part Deux, How to Do a Math Proof, An Elective
• Third Semester: Functional Programming, Intro to Databases and SQL, GUI Programming, An Elective
• Fourth Semester: Logic Programming, Internet Programming, Theory of Automata, An Elective

This is 4 classes a semester for 4 semesters. Only 4 classes per semester to give things time to stew, and because the courseload is all meat. It saves 2 years.

Re:Work Experience

[stephanruby]

My boss all-but-laughed when I asked for a raise...

Isn't this what your boss is supposed to do when you ask for a raise? Laugh in your face. Check your employee handbook. I'm pretty sure it's written in there just under the clause "You shall not share your salary information with anyone within the company." Below that it should read: "If one of your underlings asks for a raise, make sure to laugh at them and look at them like if they were totally nuts."

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

"In how many companies does HR choose the IT staff?"

Jobs in the government sector are often rule-based, not logic-based. In my agency we needed to fill specialized "crime analyst" positions. They required having our state DOJ's Crime & Intel Analysis certification and criminal law studies or experience. However, our city's HR said testing Crime Analyst applicants for criminal law and crime analysis competence was unfair for other "analysts" already working in the city (generally accounting clerks) who might want lateral movement to the position. So, HR wanted instead to give a general accounting exam and interview. (Now, to pull heads out of dark body cavities, would they want a medical doctor MD or would any PhD in liberal arts do?)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to think twice about accepting long-term (50's and beyond) career advice from the guy with a Super Street Fighter II sig.

Re:Work Experience

[pwfffff]

They can deem it necessary all they want, but it won't change the fact that the platform's not yet 4 years old. Who knows, maybe they really do want to hire only the person who first coded it.

And yes, people actually do this.

Re:Work Experience

[DrLang21]

The vast majority of the job postings I have seen rarely use the "or equivalent" qualifier. My assumption has always been that it is implied. However, when I see how some HR people go through resumes, I get the impression that they often use education as a first round easy filter. When the day comes that I have to be a hiring manager, I sincerely hope that the HR group I work with will not make that mistake.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

From my experience, an MSc is only the new BSc when it's from a poor University. A BSc from a good University with a good reputation for that degree course is better than an MSc from a poor University. It's not just the degree and classification, it's also the Institution and degree course that are important. Lots of young people seem to miss this when they apply for University and end up with a useless piece of paper due to their poor choice of University.

Re:Work Experience

[Nursie]

Where is this data coming from?

As I said, I've not come across a situation where this is true in 10 years, only that the masters might get you in in preference to someone without one at the same experience level.

Maybe it's an American thing.

Re:Work Experience

[nomadic]

My background is actually in social sciences (undergrad degree in anthropology, grad degree in law), and I definitely do not have a pro-science/tech bias.

And from what I understand about the Ed.D. degree, is that it has less rigorous requirements than a PhD; for example, many don't even have a foreign language requirement.

And undergraduate education majors seem to perform very poorly in standardized tests (you would think majoring in education would make you especially effective at testing.) For example, here are GRE results by intended major. There is no excuse for someone who spent their undergraduate career presumably reading and writing to be outperformed significantly by chemists and engineers in verbal reasoning. I'm not saying a 437 verbal on the GRE means you're a bad person, but it certainly does mean that you are not ready for graduate education in a social science.

Additionally, the research done in education is notorious for its lack of rigor, especially it's reluctance to use control groups.

Re:Work Experience

[exhilaration]

I have been working in the field for almost 10 years now

Things are different now than when we started working. What happened during the days of 1999-2000 (the time preceding the tech crash) just doesn't happen anymore. Your "accelerated course" (offered by companies like Devry in the United States) would be worthless for people entering the field these days.

Re:Work Experience

[3dr]

Good question, considering Android hasn't been out for 4 years.

There have been more than one company to require more than N years of Linux experience, where N is larger than the number of years Linux has been out.

So the GP post was a joke, although the "people like you" comment was out of line. The point is, lots of HR "requirements" are absolute nonsense.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd, wonder what school you went to. I wasn't an education major myself but at least to this comment: "It's truly mind-boggling that the nuts and bolts of teaching at a non-college level are never touched." My girlfriend had a heavy load of field experience teaching while in the education program. I know because getting her transportation to the local (off campus-)schools was a pain for us while we were in college.

Furthermore I should note that all her faculty used to be in public education prior to becoming faculty. I don't think any of her professors had no field experience. I remember talking to her about that because I was curious that she didn't have any "young" faculty.

Sounds to me like you got into a poor program.

Re:Work Experience

[DrgnDancer]

You might want to teach high school through the whole PhD. Teaching assistants make dirt, and while high school teacher is not the path to wealth and fame generally speaking, at least you can live off of it. Teaching jobs at diploma mill colleges like U of Phoenix (that'll hire people with only a masters) tend to be period by period (for whatever period the school uses. Semesters, quarters, six week sessions, whatever), so you never know from one period to the next if you'll have a job. They tend to be better as supplemental income than a "job". Plus most districts will pay you more with a masters so you'll get a raise for the time between that and your PhD. I'd like to think that the years you spend teaching high school will also help you find a professorship more quickly, but in reality that probably depends on the schools you apply to. Smaller liberal arts colleges will probably look favorably on the experience, bigger schools will just want to know what you have published.

Re:Work Experience

[PachmanP]

Also they get a lot of respect from most people below 18 and virtually all people above 18...

You're joking right? Students give teachers ~0 respect, and as for the adults the saying goes "If you can, do; if you can't, teach"

Re:Work Experience

[Fujisawa Sensei]

As an addendum to my own posting saying "Don't get a masters, I have to add, "unless you want to work for the government. Then again, why on earth would you want to work for the government?

Do do chip development he probably wants a Masters in Computer Engineering, because a BS is worthless.

With a MSCE, he's in for a private industry roller coaster ride. If he goes for government and gets a security clearance, he should at least have steady employment.

Re:Work Experience

[macbeth66]

Pure nonsense!

In my company, HR makes NO decisions about candidates. They just make sure that all the 'i's and 't's get their things in the right place.

When I see higher level degrees I groan. Great, now I am going to hear a lecture about compilers. Yeah, but can you code? As it turns out, not very well.

Re:Work Experience

[MikePikeFL]

Masters is the highest route for payment in a professional environment. Just think of this as a 1-2 year pay increase for the investment.

I agree with this based upon my experience. I got my undergrad in Computer Engineering and my Masters in Computer Science. The variety was good, and I was not happy with my school's Computer Engineering grad program.

Masters gives you the extra foot in the door type advantage, sometimes a salary advantage. I also had the fortune to have my Masters mostly paid for by working in the lab and as an intern, so that helped with the "investment" part. I also got experience at the same time. So experience such as this, and the Masters, made it all the more worth my while- twice so far actually.

I took the advice of both my father and my father-in-law: if you have the chance to get your Masters right after your undergrad, stay and do it! My father went back to get his Masters at 30-something when I was a kid and he said it was so much harder to get back into the school routine, plus having to deal with real life (and a challenging kid on top of all that ;-). I went straight through and I'm glad I did. It didn't hurt that when I graduated in 2002 I couldn't find a job, so it made the decision much easier!! It seems the economic climate could be very similar (or perhaps worse) than when I went through it so the time may be right for the original poster as well.

Hope that helps somebody out there (and not just the original poster). I'm very glad to have listened to my father for once. ;-)

Re:Work Experience

[Tanktalus]

First off, those of us with Bachelor's of Science degrees would prefer you abbreviate that as "BSc" or "B.Sc." and not "B.S.". Especially when talking to/about employers. :-P

Second, the time to ask for a raise based on your MSc is prior to employment, if you had the MSc prior to employment, or prior to taking the courses if you're taking it while employed (though this is obviously talking about a "what-if" scenario).

Third, if you value your MSc and your employer doesn't, perhaps this is not the employer you're looking for. You simply are not going to find challenges appropriate to your level of schooling here.

Personally, I work for a company that *does* pay more to Masters' holders than those with merely a Bachelor's. But I don't have one and have no intention of going back to school to get one. When I had time to go back, I didn't care. Now I don't have time (wife, kids) and still don't care. The amount of effort for the payoff simply is not that valuable to me. I'd rather spend that time playing with my kids than studying.

Re:Work Experience

[exploder]

There's a problem with that strategy, though: anyone who looks at your transcript will recognize a "consolation" MSc, and know that you washed out of a PhD program rather than succeeding in an MS program.

The schools make sure of this, because they HATE to get hustled for funding like you describe.

Re:Work Experience

[3dr]

Because perhaps the work is interesting? The USPS uses extensive computer vision tech for autorouting of mail. USGS uses computers throughout their work for cartography, remote sensing, etc. Defense departments, especially the national laboratories, consume the latest supercomputers, storage systems, and visualization tech.

But I understand if your view of government work is purely rubber-stamping papers underneath a buzzing flourescent light.

Re:Work Experience

[mommycalled]

In the district that my wife teaches in, only the artsy-fartsy types have BA/MA's in education, the Math and Science teachers all have as a minimum a Masters in discipline, many have PhDs. She teaches in a midwestern state in a VERY rural district.

Re:Work Experience

[qdaku]

In canada there is another option through the NSERC (natural sciences and engineering research council) scholarship.

There are two kinds, one of which I'm talking about here: The industrial partnership scholarship.

You get a company to sponsor you (and a project) for at least $6k/year, and the government more or less chips in $18k/year. You have to spend 20% of your time with the company working on things related to your thesis (there are some rules about billable time and not taking advantage of you because you (e.g. they can't charge out your time to your clients)). There are no strings attached either (nothing saying you have to work for them when you finish your degree). So you end up with a very focused, industry-relevant thesis , your foot in the door with a company, and a good chunk of change to do research with.

They are easy to get if you have a brain as they seem to be rubber stamped by the government --if you can agree to get a company to give you $12k over 2 years for research then probably aren't a tool. This is how I did my Masters and the topic I focused on and real world problem I was working on gave me very marketable skills.

Re:Work Experience

[JPLemme]

You're right, but in the corporate world there are two differences:

1. The company can fail, and if it does it takes everybody with it. The various parties in the GM fiasco all had competing interests, but GM's collapse is ultimately bad for the UAW workers, bad for GM's management, and bad for the shareholders. So they all had a strong incentive to cooperate in order to insure GM remained healthy. (Not that they did...)

There is hardly a similar incentive for public school systems. Virtually every person involved is protected by a union contract, state law, or both. And there's no equivalent to profits to measure the success of the whole enterprise. (Standardized test scores are a lot less objective than dollars.)

2. In the corporate world, there's a boss. I may not want to cooperate with the Finance department on a project, but there is a boss of both them and me who can force us to cooperate under penalty of termination.

But just about the only way to force teachers to do things (in most schools) is through the union contract. The only way to force the school committee to do anything is through bi-annual elections. Even the janitors and school principals are in unions. And parents can't be forced to do anything but make sure their kid shows up. There are some people in the administration who can actually be relieved of their duties for not cooperating, but they are in charge of a whole lot of people who barely have to obey them.

It's not a recipe for effectiveness.

Re:Work Experience

[Orne]

The saying is "brass tacks", and comes from the textile industry. In the 1800's, there were few accurate rulers for long distances, so the merchants used brass tacks spaced on their counter-tops, hammered into the boards at measured intervals. Plus: certify it when they're hammered in, so they make a good standard that the merchant isn't ripping you off, plus you can't adjust them without visual evidence. The customer would look at the bolts of fabric, choose a style, then they would "get down to brass tacks" to determine how much to cut, and you only get to cut once. Today, the saying relates to getting serious about the topic at hand.

Incidentally, thanks to Wikipedia, we now know that the tape measure wasn't invented until the 1860s, and wasn't in widespread use until the 1940s.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Employers are interested in skills, not extra college sheepskin. They want to know what you can DO and how fast it can get done.

This is true of a majority of jobs doing routine things (~80-90%). However, to do anything beyond routine you need to be super smart and have all of the technical and social skills on top of that. I only know of a handful of people like this. One is the high up at Argonne National Lab with only a BS degree, the other is high up at Brown University with only a HS degree.

If you are still writing web pages or in house buggy software, your degree does not matter. If you are really good, then you work at one of those top companies doing _new_ technology, and then not only does your degree matter, but you actually have to be good at doing things.

Re:Work Experience

[linear a]

One point regards your professors all thinking it's a good idea. You have a statistical bias to your sample group - they will all have graduate degrees. That being said - when I made this same decision about 20 years ago I estimated the amount of extra salary and came up with a rough number saying that getting a Masters was worth something like $100 - $200 per hour of time spent doing it.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

and you should get it done now before you get married and have kids.

That should not be a problem for a CS/CE/EE major.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, lovely HR people. I've seen a "2 years Windows 2K XP" back in 99.

Re:Work Experience

[Gribflex]

I disagree.
I will take two years of related experience over a Master's degree 100% of the time.

I've interviewed an awful lot of people, and to be honest, I'm most concerned with what you can do, not what you have learned.

The degree is nice and all, but it rarely has any bearing on the work you will do on the job, and it does not prove that you are capable of doing the work.

Two years of work experience without getting fired, however, shows that you are at least capable of performing the work, and that you can work within the social structure of the office environment.

Re:Work Experience

[mommycalled]

I started out as a high school science teacher. In the state I got my teachers license I had to have two majors, one in the discipline I was too teach and the other in education. The education component was total and utter bullshit and I learned absolutely nothing from it. What I needed to learn about how to teach a class of 9th and 10th graders was taught to me by my mentor when I student taught. What she taught me was in complete contradiction to what the education classes taught. The methods and philosophy the education classes taught were so ineffective that they were laughable, the methods and philosophy taught to me by my mentor allowed me to teach effectively. I left high school teaching, earned a PhD and now teach and do research at a major university. The university has a "Center for Teaching Excellence", that new faculty must participate in. The center run by the education department teaches the same bovine excrement that the education department pushed when I was a student teacher and is just as ineffective now as it was then. 35 years of teaching with multiple teacher of the year awards has taught me that the old saw "those who can do, those who cann't teach" only applies to those actually believe the education department bullshit. How is it that a science, math engineering faculty member can barely manage mentoring two PhD students, but an education faculty member can GRADUATE 15 education PhD's a year? The answer is simple an education degree meaningless.

Re:Work Experience

[Falkkin]

For what's it's worth, please note that the original poster's degree was in computer engineering, not computer science. "Computer engineering" means different things at different places, but IMHO the value of a master's in CE is a bit more than in CS.

Re:Work Experience

[Traa]

Please get a Masters!!

Sure work experience is what get's you a foot in the door (past the HR filter) and your personality should do the rest during the interview....

But how about 10 years later? At the senior staff/ principal engineering level you had better be a genius to advance without a decent degree.

In short I see the following:
Work experience only = programmer
Education = engineer

I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but this is my experience (MSCS 1996, Senior Staff Engineer/Mgr)

Re:Work Experience

[AuMatar]

I missed that he had a CE degree not CS. Yes, chip design and the EE half of the field play by different rules. But that still doesn't assure anything- more than half of CE degrees go into programming. For example, myself- BS of CE, UIUC. In that case they follow the CS rules. But yes, if you want to do serious chip design at Intel or AMD, get a masters or even a phd.

Re:Work Experience

[Fortunato_NC]

Universities are typically more interested in simply getting your tuition, and if you qualify, and are above 30 years old, they'll typically be more than willing to take your money and still sell your seat in the class to another applicant. Universities generally don;t like putting highly expereinced business people in classrooms where their woried the student actually trumps the professor in knowledge. Many professors who recognize this where the university doesn't will simply give you the 4.0 for the promise you don't show up to class... Some universities will simply give you a masters in BA simply for having worked in management that long (and for a generous donation to the university of $30-50K).

Stupidity like this is why the diploma mill industry thrives.

First, there is not a single reputable school in the world that awards credit for life experience without some way to document that experience - be it through coursework, publication, or the preparation of a portfolio. You can't get a real degree by a generous donation, either. You might score an honorary degree, but good luck using one of those in the workforce (unless you are in the conservative protestant clergy - they love folks with honorary degrees for some reason).

Second, any college professor worth learning from is not only not going to be scared of a student challenging him/her in class, he/she is going to expect it and welcome it, especially at the graduate level. In many graduate classes, you learn as much from your fellow students as you do from the professor or the text. Your idea of the professor who gives an experienced student a 4.0 to stay away from class is an ignorant fantasy.

Finally, your sig is great advice. You should try following it.

Re:Work Experience

[Knara]

The reason this comes about is due to traditional "career experience" rulers for fields where the "state of the art" changes very slowly.

So, if they're looking for someone with "intermediate level sales experience" the standard is (iirc) 3-5 years.

As such, if the IT/Dev dept specifies to an HR drone that they need someone with mid-level skills in (let's say, "Android") in the HR drone's mind that translates to 3-5 years of experience.

Re:Work Experience

[Gribflex]

""The experience of focusing on one problem and becoming a world expert on" would seem to apply to a PhD program and not a Masters program. The Masters is basically just a bunch of classes generally not that different from undergrad classes except that they tend to have bigger projects in each class."

"The experience of focusing on one problem and becoming a world expert on" it is what a Masters is *supposed* to be. You are 'Mastering' a particular topic.

The fact is that most Master's programs are so diluted these days that people can get a degree by just taking the classes, as you mention.

The class only option is still relatively new in most places. My Uni added it in 2003 (give or take 1 year).

Re:Work Experience

[dwye]

> When it comes down to "brass tax", degrees

That is brass tacks , not "tax"

Re:Work Experience

[AnonLion]

Were the positions you applied for, or even subsequently considered for, such that you would never have been eligible for if you didn't have a PhD? (i.e., did having the PhD make you eligible for higher level positions?)

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll Keep it simple:
I'm a graduated Software eng getting my masters starting in 2010. I have 3 years work experience.

1) Masters leaves the door open for phd.
2) Masters sets you above other entry level candidates in corporations. It also gets you more money, and more faith in your abilities.

3)After 2 years work experience, you will be more valuable than a 3-4 year employee without a masters, and get paid more.

if you decide you hate corporate work and like research you can go for your phd and try for tenure.

Therefore:
I'd say getting your MA is awesome on all fronts.
-more money
-better in selection for jobs
-just...more options academic and other.

the minus?
more school. for some people the minus is too great.

Re:Work Experience

[ryen]

I was in this same dilemma and I chose to stay for an M.S. in CS. I was near the top of my undergrad class but felt I could get a 'leg up' on even experienced people out there with the higher degree. What I found was that even with a little bump in pay the loss of 2 years of work experience was near detrimental and humbling.
The professional work environment is a much stricter and difficult place to fit in. Learning how the business works *besides* just knowing how to code means more.
I recommend he go into the workforce as soon as possible. If he has time after work to finish an MS then that could be an option. But don't discount real-work experience for a few more advanced classes and another 10k starting salary. It won't mean much when your peers have 2 years on you and already covered that 10k in bonuses and salary (and now real experience).

Re:Work Experience

[Knara]

The key there probably being "doesn't mean anything here".

Most places I've worked at place a premium on folks with advanced degrees. Your boss just didn't want to pay you more than you were currently making, but get your skill set anyway.

Re:Work Experience

[Tintivilus]

"Having that masters degree doesn't mean anything here."

This is hardly a universal policy. My employer grants an automatic pay-grade bump for a (domestic) master's in addition to a (domestic) BS. (If you have a foreign BS and domestic MS you're started even with domestic fresh-outs)

I can't imagine doing a master's out-of-pocket right out of school, especially in as vague a field as CE or EE. Get a job first, then get a master's on the company's tab when you decide to specialize.

Re:Work Experience

[Knara]

You never can get into something as heavily as you could when you were a full-time student as when you're a part time, unfortunately. But, that's often the point of terminal masters degrees, which most part-time M.S. degrees are. It's not a stepping stone to a Ph.D, it's the end of the formal education process (or intended to be, at least) in that sequence.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Additionally, the research done in education is notorious for its lack of rigor, especially it's reluctance to use control groups.

That's just your methodological or paradigmatic bias. Education is better suited towards qualitative research methods. Control groups are not a staple of qualitative research, and dismissing research because it doesn't use placebos and petrie dishes is shallow. I would say education research that depends heavily on quantitative methods would be just as silly as chemistry research that used critical ethnography. No one research method is the best--a few are better suited for the topic, however.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

487 for Chemists, 486 for Secondary Education. I'm not sure that qualifies as significant. I'll say it again, the field of education is far broader than most people give it credit for. Please don't equate my MAEd in Curriculum to a 4 year + elementary school teacher education program. Not to disparage 3rd grade teachers everywhere, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to ace the SAT or GRE to be a good manager of 9 year olds' daily routines.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

Wrong and right. Masters is "supposed" to be mastering a subject area and learning to function at state of the art.

PhD is supposed to be extending the body of knowledge and becoming a world expert on an area. There are some ways of blurring this with a masters thesis. But mostly, if you're going to go through the trouble of writing a thesis, why get a masters when you can get a PhD? Also with just a masters it is often tough to get a research job. And for a full tenure track college professor job a PhD is generally required.

Almost all programs I've seen have a project. A large portion of them also have a thesis. You specialize in one area, take mostly courses (with a few extra electives in that area) and then spend two classes writing a thesis.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

That would be the exception then. Most programs I have seen have a PhD like that, but the masters is more class oriented. Even for a thesis you take a general set of core requirements for masters, and then a bunch of electives with a significant portion of those electives being dedicated to a specialization. Then you spend a semester or two writing the thesis.

A lot of PhD programs seem to consider the Masters as a way of getting breadth in order to pass the qualifying examinations and the PhD as a way of getting depth to focus on your one area.

Re:Work Experience

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Because perhaps the work is interesting? The USPS uses extensive computer vision tech for autorouting of mail. USGS uses computers throughout their work for cartography, remote sensing, etc. Defense departments, especially the national laboratories, consume the latest supercomputers, storage systems, and visualization tech.

But I understand if your view of government work is purely rubber-stamping papers underneath a buzzing flourescent light.

Having worked in DoD simulations, I can say that I'm unimpressed. The government is always willing to fork out for newer hardware, but as a software geek and can say that it felt like they were 5-10 years behind private industry.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

I would agree it is what you are willing to make out of it. But the average student will not make that much. And it is a huge risk. If your thesis is not super applicable then your chances of getting a research job are much less than if you just did a PhD.

Even as an undergrad you can get internships, dabble into a problem, work with a professor, and land a research job in industry. But that is more rare. It happens (and my school at least throws those stories on their website as testimonials). But for the normal person you go to school and get a Bachelors that lets you get an average job. Then you go and get a masters that maybe gives you a pay raise or if you are just starting out (once you find a job) it lets you start a bit higher on the ladder. With a masters and even a bachelors you can get a research job. But you have to do convincing, even in your example you had to network and then taylor your masters. While a PhD is just a standard card of admission to research jobs. It makes it much easier to be taken seriously and to land one. To pull it off with a masters or less requires much more networking/drive/etc..

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

It seemed like the poster was not thinking of a part time program. If you have no experience. Which would you rather, especially in an economic downturn when everyone is cutting costs? Go with the more expensive unknown or the cheaper unknown?

I see a lot of companies trying to hire recent graduates with bachelors degrees (even replacing older workers) to not only get fresh blood, but to save money. Someone just graduating is much cheaper before they get experience.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "brass tacks".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_tacks

Re:Work Experience

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Do both - evening masters programs are about 3 years part time. Just make sure you're near a good school and plan your employer such taht they offer tuition reimbursement.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the point of this Slashdot-confession post is that working full-time and doing an M.S. concurrently is not a decision to be undertaken lightly. I'm not talking about a lack of social life, as that's a relatively easy problem to solve. The problem is prioritization. Something will have to play second fiddle, and YOU are the ultimate arbiter of what needs to give if you do this. Otherwise, you'll wind up half-assing one or the other, and you may not like where that leaves you. Good luck, though - I wish you well!

If I were a hiring manager (and your coding skills were up to par) I would hire you on the spot specifically because you clearly were able to prioritize and get through work + education + wedding.

So you didn't get to dive deep into some topic as much as you would like. Cry me a river. That's life! Guess what? The best programmers are the ones who don't go down the rabbit's hole everytime they have a project. They figure out priorities, achieve what's necessary to get done, and move on. The ones who sit around creating masterpieces are the ones who miss out on not only promotions and bonuses, but the opportunity to work on bigger and better things.

There's nothing wrong with building elegant stuff or really thinking deeply about a problem. But historically if you look at some of the achievements of the greatest engineers (and artists for that matter) out there, their work was simply the result of the need to get shit done, not contribute a masterpiece. There is no padded ivory tower with gobs of time to play.

You're doing fine. Now get back to work.

Re:Work Experience

[LateArthurDent]

I cannot speak to CS, but in electrical engineering having a Masters doesn't mean anything.

According to average salaries information from this site, you are dead wrong: no masters, masters

That's been my personal experience as well. When your boss all but laughs and says, "having that masters degree doesn't mean anything here" he's trying to make you satisfied with your current salary, which is probably below average for your education. He might be right that it doesn't mean anything at the place where you work now but all that means is that you should be looking into working elsewhere. That's assuming you care about the money more than you care about your working conditions (your working conditions where you are now could be fantastic, and I'd take that over money every time, personally). If that's not the case though, get the hell out.

Re:Work Experience

[nomadic]

That's just your methodological or paradigmatic bias. Education is better suited towards qualitative research methods.

That's the NRC's bias, too; check out their 2002 report on rigor in educational research. There's nothing wrong with qualitative research if it's done correctly, but it's not an excuse for a researcher to play hunches or validate their own pet theories.

Re:Work Experience

[cervo]

Except you won't learn everything in the masters course on your own unless you are very driven. A lot of that material will never be used at all in a job. For a typical corporate job writing front ends for database and some SQL a large portion of even the undergraduate education is unused. There are exceptions where you use a lot more (game development, Google, etc.).

For example, graduate algorithm analysis. Generally the undergrad version teaches the data structures and big O notation (which with a lot of the libraries these days is often not even used...but occasionally I pull out Big O to understand the library implementation when something is going slow and rewrite to use another library implementation with better asymptotic running time..ie Array List into Dictionary, etc..). The graduate version focuses more on proofs of correctness, proofs of running time, etc... In my last two jobs and this one I don't see myself ever using that. But if you are creating your own algorithm to do something, or reading papers on other people's recent discoveries then it is useful to understand their analysis/proof of correctness.

Some Masters Course Topics: Image Processing, Operating System Theory, Networking, Algorithms, Graph Theory, Databases, Data Mining, Pattern Recognition, Computer Vision, Artificial Intelligence, Programming Languages/Compilers, Complexity Theory, Information Retrieval, Cryptography, Parallel/High Performance Computing, etc... The chances of using all these things in a given job are thin. Learning them all on your own would require quite a bit of reading. But do you really learn as much by reading a book as you do by reading the book, listening to the professor, studying the material for an exam, and doing assignments?

For me the masters gets me to read some of the same material in my stack of books that I have been meaning to "get around" to, plus a bunch of additional stuff...

Re:Work Experience

[nomadic]

487 for Chemists, 486 for Secondary Education. I'm not sure that qualifies as significant.

437 for education--other according to that list. And 50 points is definitely significant.

Please don't equate my MAEd in Curriculum to a 4 year + elementary school teacher education program.

According to that list, the average GRE for people going into graduate programs in curriculum is 462. And, I believe many of the less highly regarded education programs don't even need GREs so that cuts out a lot of the poorer performers. Sure there are brilliant teachers, and for all I know you got a perfect score on the GRE, but the point seems to be that education programs on average produce scholars less able than other fields.

Not to disparage 3rd grade teachers everywhere, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to ace the SAT or GRE to be a good manager of 9 year olds' daily routines.

Well you can't have it both ways. Either education is a real academic field, or it's not. If it requires higher reasoning, then yes, its practitioners should be able to show at least a basic competency with the written language.

Re:Work Experience

[DrgnDancer]

The pay scale also needs to be corrected for the 16 weeks of vacation most teachers get. If they teach during the summer it's for a stipend on top of their salary. They earn their money, but the money is certainly good. (At least in the Northeast).

I think this varies wildly from district to district, it also fail to consider a few points. First, the points:

Teacher salary often (not always, but often) starts off pretty good, but don't really scale. I worked as a middle school teacher for a year in New Orleans. My starting salary was around 24K a year. Not great by any means, but livable. Had I continued teaching, I would now be making around 35-40K (depending on my degree status). That's not much of a scale up over 10 years. By contrast, in the tech field I started at a similar salary and am now making around twice what I would have if I'd kept teaching. That's after less years of experience. I'm hoping for more before I hit my 10 years "in industry" mark.

While one can argue that you have to scale teacher salaries for their 16 week vacations, it's also worth pointing out that there's not a lot they can do to earn more money during those vacations. At least in the district I worked for, summer school slots were based on seniority, and since New Orleans teachers were particularly poorly paid, senior teachers usually wanted them. Not to many companies are willing to hire you for a summer gig (at least not for good well paying work). If you're in a field where it's appropriate you might be able to get a consulting gig, but maybe not, and it's really no help if you don't have any marketable secondary skills. (Computer teachers might do this, probably not so much lit teachers). I'm not saying that teachers can't possibly earn money over the summer, but it's hardly a sure thing.

There's other things too... Good teacher work lots of unpaid overtime, they have often have to take classes (in many districts they have to PAY for classes) over the summer, they spend time doing lesson plans, etc. Don't get me wrong, the summers off are really nice, but I really don't know that everything equals out. I know I make a lot more money that I would be making teaching, and I probably have less stress in the bargain.

As to the "varies wildly by district"... Well, I know that New Orleans is well below the national average (or was when I worked there). I've heard horror stories of rural districts where, by the time teachers pay for gas, classroom stuff that the district doesn't provide, classes that the district requires but doesn't pay for, etc; they're barely making minimum wage. That's only hearsay though, I've never experienced such a thing myself.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

According to the National Science Foundation, an EdD is academically equivalent to a PhD in rigor.

http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-structure-us.html

Playing hunches IS the whole purpose of qualitative research! That's why you start with your hypothesis and spend the rest of your degree plan trying to validate them...oh wait, that wasn't right? ;-)

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Well you can't have it both ways. Either education is a real academic field, or it's not.

Sure there are brilliant teachers...

You cannot limit the entire field of education to "teacher". I have an MAEd and I'm not even qualified to teach! You cannot pick and choose ONE discipline of Education (secondary, elementary, curriculum, special, other, whatever) and then say the field of education lags in GRE scores, when I showed you that secondary teachers are one point lower than chemists. My point isn't that I'm picking the one best education category--only that there are several disciplines within the field of education. For crying out loud, we can all understand that it doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to teach third graders, can't we!? Get rid of those outliers, and I think you'd find that education degrees aren't as watered-down as you like to think.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Third big difference.

3. In the corporate world, there is competition that everyone pays attention to. If a customer who has been buying servers from, say, Dell, and gets unhappy with their quality or service, they have lots options to consider.

With public school systems, there is very little real competition. The unions and the rest of the system fight voucher programs or charter schools.

Parents can choose private schools, but unless they're in one of the few places that offer a voucher program, they're going to paying extra for this - the school system doesn't give them anything back since their kids are no longer in public school.

The lack of competition further insulates school systems from any real penalty if they don't succeed.

Re:Work Experience

[dahwang]

This sounds like a post made with little facts and mostly conjecture.

Yes teachers, administrators, and principals are in unions and are protected, but layoffs can still occur within union contracts. People can still get fired, (of course, it's a lot harder), but unions understand that in order for a business, (in this case--a school district), there will be layoffs and firings.

In most cases, the teachers get no severance package as a corporate employee would, and because of their little salary, there is minimal cushion following the layoffs.

Your comparison between the corporate world and the education does highlight differences, but you exaggerate the influence and power of the unions. Labor unions can lobby, but they can't singlehandedly dictate economics. Nor can they grow money on trees.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

I'm not saying there's not work involved, but getting course credit is relatively easy to accomplish when you have 10+ documented years of experience in the field, and can prepare a simple paper and pass an exit exam. Simply sitting in the classroom is not required. Doing the work, or at least proving you have the knowledge may still very well be a requirement.

I'm also not saying there's no value in sitting through the classes. You are bound to learn SOMETHING, but the value of the time speant is greatly diminished when you've already learned most of the lesson doing it every day. MANY professors recognize this.

I did not say the professors fealt threatened. I'm not saying they don't want you to come to class because they fear what you'll bring to it. I'm saying they generally recognize the futility of the effort for the value earned. Also, working class people who atend evening classes and DO make the effort are usually a drain on the professor's time to assist other students as they frequently miss those classes do to LIFE when it can not be avoided, and they typically feel compelled to make up the missed information via the professor. They're not 20-something kids, they're experienced collegues, and they tend to get off topic very easily and detract from other efforts the professor needs to attend to.

A diloma is validation of knowledge achieved. It truly matters not how that knowledge is earned, only that we recognize that you have it. Though there are some schools that provide diplomas like grandmothers hand out tissues, and they ARE a bane on the institution, most reputable (acredited) schools will recognize experience earned and honor it. They don't do it for free, and they don;t do it without significant effort on your part (500 - 1500 hours of effort I have seen to be typical), but they do offer such an option to those who seek it.

I live near USC, and know many people in several industries who have taken this path with that institution, Clemson, Furman, and others. You're not going to get a Doctoral degree that way, not anything other than "Doctor of Humanities", but Master's degrees? Yea, it happens one Saturday each Spring and Fall...

Most times they'll make you take at least a few courses. The degree usually encompases more than your job experience can cover, but odds are 10+ years in the industry will get you out of at least half of your credits, most for nothing more than taking the final exam in the prof's office on the first day of class, or doing a short thesis.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

try changing your employer

Re:Work Experience

[s73v3r]

I graduated with a CompE BS in May, 2008, and most of the positions I got interviews for were primarily software positions, and only a few of those were for embedded software, which I would think is more along the lines of what a CompE should be doing, software wise.

Re:Work Experience

[gnosi]

This is absolutely correct. The only way to truly make it is to run your own business.
If you work for some one you only have one boss. If they screw up you get hurt bad. If you have a hundred clients if you lose one of them it hurts but should not damage you that much.

A good stepping stone is to be a consultant a consultant is a business with one and only one employee. The consultant has to work on brand recognition of himself as well as the problem solving skills to solve companies problems. Marketing is networking. Observe and learn how businesses succeed and/or fail. Observe and learn how and why projects succeed and/or fail. Consultants with business and project management skills can demand a lot. Lear the art of politics. To make the top tier of consulting you have to be a master of politics within a company. Once you have mastered all of these components of being a consultant it is time to create your own business. Find or make a product then market and sell that product.

1. Learn all nessisary skills to running a business.
2. Find or make a product.
3. Market, sell and service your product.
4. Take the risk.
5. Work/think your butt off. Running the business is just more of the problem solving skills you learned as a consultant. Note: make this line ??? before publishing to Slashdot
5. Profit

Re:Work Experience

[DrgnDancer]

Honestly I think the masters will win in the end. Right out of school it may be of questionable value, but later in your career, when people are looking at you for management/team lead/senior roles a post graduate degree can be a big advantage. You can argue that one can just get a job and work on a masters at night or whatever, but in the end that's a lot harder than just plowing through and getting it done. Plus, when you're young and still officially a "student" it's easier to get a "real" masters. Lots of schools offer night school programs for "soft" computer skills like an MIS, fewer offer full on Comp Sci or Comp E masters degrees without you being able to attend day session classes. On top of that, as several people point out, the economy sucks right now. Might as well get your education done and hope things are better in two years.

Re:Work Experience

[ebuck]

We have a similar program here in Texas. However, by the time you take all of the additional courses, you might as well pitch in for the extra year to get the full degree.

In attempting to drive up the salaries of teaching, I wonder if the teacher's union looked to the other professions and decided that higher education hurdles worked well for other fields (law, medicine, etc)?

Re:Work Experience

[SQLGuru]

That the thing about homophones. If you don't know the etymology and there are no context clues, it's hard to tell the difference. I honestly appreciate the edification.

Re:Work Experience

[msaavedra]

Notice anything striking there? Of all my "Education" professors, none had taught in a non-college classroom in the last two decades. Some never had. What made them *qualified* to teach me? A PhD in Education. Did they have anything useful to teach? No. How could they, when their entire background was full-time immersion in college-level educational philosophy? My "Education" professors were philosophers,(PhD) not teachers.

My wife, who is a teacher, would definitely agree with you. She often refers to the following quote: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach teachers."

Re:Work Experience

[Totenglocke]

I have many friends who are teachers and all through college they talked about what a joke the education classes were. Oh, and this isn't some piece of crap school either, it's a well known and respected one.

Re:Work Experience

[cowdung]

I found that in the US experience rules to a certain extent (because if you don't have ANY degree your market value goes down in spite of experience).

But in Latin America experience means little to nothing compared to degrees. People are big on fancy degrees. A Masters will open much more doors than a Bachellor's. If you have a PhD you're pretty much a God.

Re:Work Experience

[I'm not really here]

I can tell you that I didn't even have my bachelor's degree when I got my programming job. I had an associate's degree in Networking!

I got the job because I showed the interviewers that I could code decently, and had an outgoing/friendly/diplomatic attitude.

The only thing strongly requested of me was that if I was offered the job, that I would take advantage of the employee educational reimbursements to get my Bachelor's degree... in practically anything (I'm doing Business Administration now, because I'd be bored in a Comp Sci bachelor's program—not much I need to learn at this point, though I'm bored in the BA degree as well *shrugs*).

Re:Work Experience

[spopepro]

A couple of things: PhD = Philosophical. ED,MD even your JD are all "professional degrees"; the idea being that you will use your training as a professional in the field as opposed to research alone. Saying it's easier is, in my opinion, saying an applied math degree is easier than a pure math degree.

Second, unsurprisingly you have a poor idea of how education programs and research works. The education majors you speak of are all going to be elementary. There is no such thing as a secondary ed major, only a minor to accompany a degree in a subject area. Therefore it is unsurprising to me that a group of people who spend their time learning how to teach abstract ideas such as place value and denominators for fractions do poorly on a test designed to generally assess graduate level reasoning. Now ask what you would get if you ask your fellow JDs or those chemists and engineers to teach a 6 year old how to read...

Your jab at research has some historical significance, and I agree that teachers are reluctant to accept real data driven information. but fails to recognize that isolating single variables and control groups are not realistic in our "laboratory". How would you like to explain to a parent that their kid is doing poorly because they were selected as a control for a 4 year curriculum revision of math and science?

Re:Work Experience

[nomadic]

You cannot limit the entire field of education to "teacher". I have an MAEd and I'm not even qualified to teach! You cannot pick and choose ONE discipline of Education (secondary, elementary, curriculum, special, other, whatever) and then say the field of education lags in GRE scores

Well my point was that they shouldn't be losing to chemists even by 1 point! It's not a hard test, anyone with a college degree should be able to break at least 500 on it. ALL of the education fields listed lag in GRE scores as far as I'm concerned.

For crying out loud, we can all understand that it doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to teach third graders, can't we!? Get rid of those outliers, and I think you'd find that education degrees aren't as watered-down as you like to think.

It doesn't require a Rhodes scholar, but it's a professional career so each practitioner should have at least a basic understanding, especially since in most places teachers have to develop lesson plans (and I don't think "9:00AM-3:30PM: babysit children") counts. Children are complicated; you wouldn't want an unqualified child psychologist, would you? I understand that you're annoyed that people tend not to respect the academic discipline you chose, and by no means do I think it's a worthless degree or that the educational system in this country is irredeemably broken, I just think that education as a discipline has some shortcomings.

Re:Work Experience

[cowdung]

Nah.. better just get a job and have THEM pay for your Masters!

As an undergrad I got a Co-op, but friends of mine just got themselves hired fulltime. They ended up earning more, getting into better projects and finishing college at the same time I did.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

brass tacks.

Re:Work Experience

[Fulcrum of Evil]

In my experience (approx 8 years in the field), only very average coders ever had Masters Degree's[sic]

I take exception to that - I'm at least above average, and I'm in a master's program. I've got the shelf full of books, am working through ruby and python, as well as their related stacks, and I've got a backlog of heavy math to get to when I get time: you really need to ignore the actual degree, or at least look at motivation.

Re:Work Experience

[DrgnDancer]

1) Because they are ignorant of the age of a technology, or the speed with which it moves. This is getting better, but I recall LOTS of this with Java back before it became mature technology. A programmer says to a manager, "When we hire that new guy, see if you can get someone who know some of this new Java stuff... I think we can use that." The manager says to HR, "They should know Java." HR consults previous job ads, sees that normally when you want someone that "knows" a language you ask for 5 years of experience. Then they write an ad that requests five years of experience in a 3 year old technology.

2) They fail to understand that experience with a specific technology is rarely as useful in a technology environment as the skills to learn and adapt to new technologies. You seem to falling into this trap to an extent as well, but you haven't been specific enough for me to know for sure. I won't deny that there ARE time when you need someone who will be up to speed on day 1. Those times are (or should be) the exception rather than the rule. Generally speaking, a programmer can program in a variety of languages, give him a few weeks and he'll learn the one you need. I encountered this a lot in my most recent job hunt.

"Have you worked with Veritas?"
"Well, no, but I've worked with the San Management and file system tools from HP and SGI, I understand Veritas is very similar... It shouldn't be a problem"
"So you've worked with Veritas?".

La. The fact of the matter is that you will likely never find someone with "x" years of experience in every technology you use unless you hire from within, or have an incredibly vanilla configuration. The industry is to heterogeneous, and moves to fast. Often in the time it takes to find the guy with the perfect resume, you could have hired three guys and got them up to speed (Again, this depends on how vanilla your requirements are, if all you ask for is "3 years of Unix experience" or "5 years of Java programming", you're probably gonna find someone. I've seen lots of job descriptions with 10 or 11 bullet points all asking for multiple years of experience with very specific things.)

3) They lack the ability to judge a candidates skills except by looking at the number of years they've been doing something. Absent that measure they are at a loss, so they ask for impossibilities like "5 years of Android experience". I've worked for a few small companies with only one or two IT guys where this is a big problem. Management just lists the technologies they have and asks for 3-5 years of experience in all of them. Especially if the small IT staff is all younger people (as often happens at small companies, it's all they can afford), they simply have to look at experience years and hope they get lucky.

4) They somehow have a different definition of the term "entry level" than the rest of the world. I'm sorry, people with 5 years of experience in any aspect of IT or programming have ceased to be entry level. In fact, that's the definition of the term to the rest of us.

I'm not saying that YOU do any of these things, I don't know you. These are however some of the many reasons that managers and HR ask for stupid, impossible, or pointless things in job adverts. In turn these are the reasons that many of us ignore the requirements in job adverts and apply for things that we know we can do, even if we only have 2 years of java experience instead of 4. Usually once the managers get the actual pile of resumes and realize that no living human on Earth actually has 5 years of experience in every technology they happen to have in their particular data center they start looking for the people that are close enough to get the job done. I've almost never met all the requirements of any job I've ever applied for, unless it was a particularly well written ad. Inevitably there is SOME technology that the writer chose to highlight which I have never worked with, or have only used something similar. I've never had any problem picking up the new tech on hire either though.

Re:Work Experience

[UnknownSoldier]

What? We're shocked that any institute has self preservation as its best interest? :-)

i.e.
Lawyer's don't _want_ simple laws that anyone can understand.
Textbook Publishers don't _want_ books that anyone can edit and learn from
RIAA doesn't _want_ people sharing music
FDA/Big Pharma doesn't want anyone to grow their own herbs, and foods so people eat and live healtier as there is no money in healthy people.
The Automotive companies don't want to invest in alternate energy as it will impact their bottom line.

--
Reddit is the Dig of Slashdot.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is that if the schools were all independently run like a company then the students (customers) would be the most important focus instead of everyone looking out for number one?

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

As an addendum to my own posting saying "Don't get a masters, I have to add, "unless you want to work for the government. Then again, why on earth would you want to work for the government?

Do do chip development he probably wants a Masters in Computer Engineering, because a BS is worthless.

With a MSCE, he's in for a private industry roller coaster ride. If he goes for government and gets a security clearance, he should at least have steady employment.

I just realized how bad an idea it is to shorten Masters of Science of Computer Engineering to MSCE. Probably MScCE or M.Eng. CE.

The masters might even be a Master of Engineering.

Re:Work Experience

[mr_mischief]

Generally in my area for secondary school education, they want someone with a degree in at least one of the subjects they teach and enough education classes to be certified as a teacher. An education degree is for someone teaching primary school, someone who wants to teach education, or one who wants to be a school administrator.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, because you put "brass tax" in quotes... the term is Brass Tacks.

Re:Work Experience

[lewiscr]

If you plan is to do true systems engineering (chip design, manufacturing design, etc) or work in high tech aspects of IT, then a masters in both CS and math...

(Emphasis mine)

Or perhaps a degree in Engineering?

Re:Work Experience

[aureus620]

Due to rampant ageism, and cruddy work-life balance issues, your career as a programmer is statistically over by the time you are maybe 35.

[Citation Needed]

Re:Work Experience

[msaavedra]

Generally, to teach HS and below, the only degree allowable is an education degree. A PHD in math will not be allowed to teach algebra, and a Nobel prive winning physicist will not be allowed to teach physics, unless of course they additionally have a BA in education.

Where do you live? My wife is a high school English teacher, and has a degree in English. I have a friend who teaches elementary school who double-majored in Psychology and Italian. Here in California, teachers who teach specialized subjects (English, math, foreign languages, etc) generally have a degree in the subject they teach, while teachers who don't specialize (elementary school teachers, for example) might have a degree in education. There is a lot of flexibility, though.

All teachers here, except in rare circumstances, have to have teaching credentials, though. These are usually acquired after the bachelor's degree by completing graduate-level coursework that can be finished in a year, as well as taking an exam and getting some real classroom experience (usually through student teaching). The credential is not a degree, but it does require continuing education, and many teachers end up eventually getting a Master's in education due to all the additional education classes they need to take.

My wife did have a friend at her former school who ran into a problem similar to what you're describing. He was a 7th and 8th grade biology teacher, but had a doctorate in some branch of biology from Oxford University. Aside from having a solid background in the science, he was an excellent teacher, having been selected as Teacher of the Year for the district. However, he received notice that he wasn't "highly qualified" for his position and would have to take additional classes to keep his job. Apparently due to some bureaucratic snafu, the powers-that-be didn't recognize his Oxford degree because it wasn't a PhD, but a DPhil, DSc, or something similar that we never see in America. They couldn't be reasoned with, though, so he ended wasting a bunch of time taking classes that he had *taught* when he was a grad student.

Re:Work Experience

[madsenj37]

Get your masters in this economy from a public university (great value). You can never take away an education and its benefits are endless if you apply them properly. Think about going part time and getting work experience. If you have a higher education and experience only your attitude and quality of work will set you back. I did the MBA route without much work experience, I just plowed through. Without a good amount of experience, I am looked at in different ways. Some think its good, others bad. I honestly think think you should go to school full time the first year and then work and go part time. You will have experience and credibility when you graduate.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

You are married, though. Be grateful for having found the love of your life! That is more important than any amount of money.

Re:Work Experience

[JPLemme]

"it's a lot harder"

That's a bit of an understatement. The teachers' contracts (and in some cases the law) specify how many children can be in each class. The population specifies how many children there are. The government specifies how many of them are entitled to a public education.

Teachers get laid off, but it's basically impossible to have the sort of massive 15%-25% layoffs that you get in the corporate world. The administration is somewhat exposed, but the rest of the system not so much.

Also (as was pointed out earlier) they can't outsource their science teachers. They can't decide to get out of the math education business.
They can't just fire all the tenured teachers a la Circuit City and hire new graduates. They can't even decide to lower the standards and hire teachers without degrees because that's spelled out in the contract as well.

Firings happen, but whereas I can get fired for no reason at all, teachers can't. Neither can janitors, for that matter. (Unless they hire an outside firm, but the school districts in RI don't do that.)

I can't speak for the severance package, so I won't. It's pretty unlikely to come up. But the phrase "little salary" is not remotely true in RI. A teacher with 10 years' experience in a public school system will make 70-80k, with 16 weeks of vacation. I'm not saying they don't earn it or deserve it, and I realize that unlike those of us in the private sector teachers will never have the opportunity to get rich (not through teaching, at least). But they make a good living.

Labor unions and government-run institutions are less effective combined than either of them are on their own.

Re:Work Experience

[JPLemme]

In RI, the pay scales seem to be about double NOLA. I don't know about the cost of living differences, but I doubt New England is twice as expensive to live in.

I completely agree with your other points, although I'd like to add that if you have children the savings on child care are considerable. (And seeing your Mom or Dad more often is good, as well.)

(For most values of Mom or Dad...)

Re:Work Experience

[saintlupus]

Those who can't teach teacher, teach gym. Or become guidance counselors.

--saint

Re:Work Experience

[debatem1]

The fact that you and I know different things does not imply that what we do know is equivalent in scope, usefulness, or difficulty- and pretending that "the art of instructional design" is equivalent in difficulty to rocket science is probably an excellent sign that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Re:Work Experience

[jeff4747]

Having worked in DoD simulations, I can say that I'm unimpressed. The government is always willing to fork out for newer hardware, but as a software geek and can say that it felt like they were 5-10 years behind private industry.

That's because certain laws prevent us from discussing the interesting stuff.

Re:Work Experience

[terjeber]

Yeah, right. Again, having tried the gov stuff, no way it is that interesting. Private industry spends a lot more money on interesting software engineering than does the gov.

Re:Work Experience

[stewbacca]

Cripes, people. I can say, without doubt, that a rocket scientist doesn't know the first thing about writing instructional objectives. I know this, because I have a job with a bunch of rocket scientists to make their training plans and evaluations...not because they don't have time, because they don't know the first thing about it. Trust me, they tried to wing it, but their product was so unprofessional, and so flawed from and educational stand-point that they had to hire somebody skilled in that area. Thankfully that was me.

That doesn't mean that I, a curriculum specialist, am smarter than a rocket scientist, only that we have different skill sets. A rocket scientist is most likely much smarter than me....at making rockets.

Re:Work Experience

[mommycalled]

So you're saying that I didn't have to get a dual major (Mathematics and Secondary Education) to get my teachers license to teach in high school? Seems that that the State Department of Education that issued my teacher licenses seemed to think so. Your major and certification determine where you can teach. If you are not a secondary ed major you cann't teach in high-school. Strange the high-school my son attended had a retired PhD Physicist as a second grade teacher, the Physicist did much better job than the touchy-feely education major that he had in first grade As far as "isolating single variables and control groups are not realistic" there is a reason why state teachers colleges have lab schools and why parents have to sign waivers for there children to attend the lab schools. Yet another MAT trying to justify their degree.

Re:Work Experience

[DrgnDancer]

A little online research seem to show that things have gotten better in New Orleans as far as salaries go, apparently this is especially true since Katrina. That's nice to see.

Re:Work Experience

[jeff4747]

My point is you didn't actually try the interesting stuff.

Re:Work Experience

[debatem1]

That doesn't mean that I, a curriculum specialist, am smarter than a rocket scientist, only that we have different skill sets. A rocket scientist is most likely much smarter than me....at making rockets.

One of my political science teachers once told me that "in the time it would take you to get an education in computer science, you could get a degree in political science!". The emphasis was on the word 'degree', and, having tutored political science, computer science, and education students, I feel that much the same can be said about the field of education. That doesn't mean that *you* are less intelligent than a given rocket scientist- but it does strongly indicate that as a group education professionals deserve the scant respect they are accorded by those who have worked their way through more rigorous disciplines.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

No offense this guy doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about. He sounds like he doesn't have a degree in engineering of some sort.

Re:Work Experience

[Grishnakh]

There are exceptions in areas of teacher shortage, like if you know Spanish or are willing to wear a bullet proof vest and teach in the worst inner city schools, preferably both, but even those exceptions require evidence of night school progress on an education degree.

You don't need to know Spanish to teach Spanish. I have a friend whose ex-wife started a teaching job in a Florida public school, fresh out of college with a degree in Classics, I believe, with concentration in Latin. They started her out teaching Spanish. Trouble was, she didn't know any Spanish. That didn't concern the school administration.

She ended up quitting part way into the semester and leaving the profession.

Re:Work Experience

[BanteringCTO]

You are correct, and I hope that kdawson reads your post. Like you, I had an undergrad degree in CS. I then went on to get a MS in CS (about a decade ago). Without getting into the specifics, the changes in my income have been significant. In my personal experience, in the right hands a Master's degree will add many hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime income for its bearer. In my current position, I employ a number of computer engineers. Those with Master's degrees earn tens of thousands of dollars more per year over their peers without that qualification, and are the first to be considered for the most challenging, and rewarding, assignments. They are also the first to be considered for managerial roles. It seems that many of the responses are from those fairly early on in their career. At that level, it may not make much difference. When you are negotiating with senior execs over your compensation package, it is a meaningful factor. Good Luck, kdawson!

Re:Work Experience

[Vaakku]

Funny.... I Don't have ANY degree but ~10 years experience on networks. Last time I was employed they clearly said that they don't care about degrees, all they cared was what I'm REALLY capable to do. Show me a person who can work out of college/university with all of Cisco/Juniper/Extreme... There is a slight difference with academica and real world. Coding might be different story but most gifted coders I have seen haven't been graduated either.

Re:Work Experience

[mikewas]

The working level at my location (primarily EE & CS, some other engineering & science) is BS + 2 masters degrees. Generally hired with a BS, then an MS in a technical field & MBA later in the career.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you just proved his point. Look at the release date for Android.

Re:Work Experience

[Grishnakh]

I disagree with this. First, you need to ask yourself, "is going into management something I would ever want to do?"

If you like the idea of management, and are a people-person, and don't mind spending all your time in meetings rather than doing hands-on work, then the parent's advice is good.

However, if you're like me and loathe the idea of management, and really don't like to talk to people any more than you have to, and absolutely hate meetings, then disregard the parent's advice. Stick to the technical side. Yes, there is some ageism, but there's ways to combat that. 1) Pick a field where there's not a lot of good competition from young people. Personally, I'm in embedded programming. Kids these days (I'm 35) have pretty much no exposure to hardware, and don't remember what it was like to program in assembly, or have a computer with a clock speed less than 1 GHz. I also have a EE degree, so that fits the embedded positions a little better than a pure CS degree. Anyway, in my field, in my last several jobs, I've been the youngest person on the team, even though I'm certainly not straight out of college any more. So yes, if you go into web programming, you're probably going to see a lot of ageism, but in my industry I don't see it at all. 2) Plan to retire early. To do this, keep your expenses low and pay off your debt early. Start some type of small business so that you can be financially independent; being a consultant is also a very good option here. Just make sure that you set yourself up so that when you reach 40 or so, you can cut the strings from regular salaried work.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

haha yeah, he should quit I bet there is a sweet line wanting to hire some decrepit old man for tons of more money than he's worth.

Re:Work Experience

[borowcm]

Then that's not the company he wants to work for - I'm a PhD student in computer engineering - it's not an "IT degree." Any company that would try to refer me in that direction doesn't need me - and I wouldn't need/want it. Plus I would hope that when it comes time to submit a resume he'll be applying to a particular position of group.

Re:Work Experience

[mako1138]

When I was looking at entry-level EE job listings a few years ago, most of them specified a MS. It made me, with just a BS, a bit sad.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, as a DoD employee (GS-1550-13 Computer Scientist), I'm more in the "rubber-stamping papers underneath a buzzing fluorescent light" scenario... and I have a BS in Computer Science and a MS in Software Engineering. Yeah... I am actively looking for a new job (but preferably still in the government, like at one of those fancy national labs!)

Re:Work Experience

[zealot]

Completely disagree. A CompE master's gets you nothing except a bit of a pay increase (but it will take years before the increase makes up for the year(s) you could have been working with a BS), and many many microprocessor designers have a BS.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

The program you talk about is a joke. The government is using the program to shove more incompentent people in to a school for some sort of financial kick back from the Fed.

I've seen this program in action and instead of hiring people with a BS in Elementary Education they are hiring people with broadcasting or General Ed degrees that can't find a job.

These people have no experience very little training and are not qualified. On top of it all they get a Masters in Education.

Meanwhile the person that took 4 years to be a teacher and had to do student teaching and is well trained has to go to school for another 2 years to get their Masters.

This program is making teaching a joke!

Re:Work Experience

[instarx]

I agree that this is bad advice. In fact it is VERY bad advice. Get the Master's degree. Everybody will have two years experience in two years, but you will have an advanced degree. Also, you will not want to stay in the low-end of your career forever and a Master's degree will open you up to management positions that mere experience will not.

Re:Work Experience

[toddestan]

A lot of people view the "requirements" more of a list that the ideal canidate might have. This attitude probably came about because of all the job postings out there with an unreasonably large list of requirements that very few, if anyone, has (and especially the ones that list senior-level requirements for junior-level pay). Also, some people are willing to apply for a job that says something like "requires knowledge of Python" even if they don't know Python, because they know they can pick up Python really fast. They could lie about it to get past HR, but most people aren't willing to go that far.

Re:Work Experience

[zen-theorist]

Now, in one hand I've got an M.S. that I'm only superficially proud of because it does not represent the full extent of my abilities. In the other hand, I've got excellent performance reviews for a job I have no pride in and a bunch of clueless co-workers and managers who are congratulating me for "finally finishing college".

I gotta say, that sounds ingrateful and snobbish considering the financial comfort your company gave you during your studies.

Re:Work Experience

[daymitch]

The EdD qualifies you for a different range of employment options than other non-PhD doctoral degrees in my experience.

In some contexts it is considered a doctoral-equivalent, but many *teaching* jobs at post-secondary academic institutions I have seen explicitly DO NOT consider an EdD to be a PhD equivalent.

The pedagogical structure of EdD programs is similar to other doctoral degrees, but what academic employers are often looking for is subject area expertise *and* some training in effective education.

There is a program called the Doctor of Arts that used to be more common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Arts It combines a research component with a decent amount (~25% of credit hours) of educational preparation. The NSF considers both the EdD and DA to be PhD equivalent, officially.

In practice, the EdD is looked down upon in the science and science-education realm. The parent is clearly aware of that prejudice. The lack of subject area knowledge outside of education is a real problem. In my experience, this prejudice is not unwarranted although it does get a bit unfair sometimes.

I did a PhD in a biology department that offered a DA option and was located next door to an education department. I got to see the job searches, the seminars and interact with the students in both programs. DA degree seekers got multiple academic job offers in universities, colleges and elite private high schools. The EdD grads I know struggled to get noticed. Most found jobs as corporate trainers or high school teachers.

I've personally seen lessons on introductory biology produced by EdDs and those produced by DAs. This is a personal assessment, but the DAs did better jobs.

Even though both teachers understood the basic subject matter, the actual experience of the DA student with research *in the subject area* came through during student interactions. Both lectures were similar in didactic quality.

A curious student can ask very insightful questions that only subject matter experience will prepare a teacher to answer. If a student asks a probing question that reveals the shallowness of the instructors knowledge, you have lost them for the year.

An EdD imparts useful skills, don't get me wrong. EdD's get jobs, good ones where they make real contributions. It's a matter of context. We need a few specialists in education as a subject in our universities. A few. Fewer than we have, to be more pointed.

We need more people in our universities who understand some of what education specialists know. This is an optimization problem, not structural problem.

Outside of post-secondary ed? I'm out of my element there. YMMV, but that's the view from where I sit.

Re:Work Experience

[Goetterdaemmerung]

I agree. My company has a policy to pay a new hire $10,000 more for someone with a Master's degree.

Ironically if you get a higher degree while working for them you won't get a raise. Instead, you have to leave to get paid what you are worth. :)

For full disclosure I decided to not get a Masters degree. I prefer to work on a variety of interesting and fulfilling tasks instead of becoming an expert in just one, which would eventually bore me. Just as there is a market for specialists, there is also a market for flexible people.

Re:Work Experience

[razorhead]

Excellent response. Don't work for a company that discourages interviewing candidates with masters degrees. As a current employee your value is what you deliver. As a new hire, your value is what you have the potential to deliver. If you want a raise based on potential and not a track record, move on.

Re:Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of god, billsnow, stop confusing slashdot with a single overarching entity.

Re:Work Experience

[epicureanideal]

Bureau of Labor Statistics says 80% of people employed in computer science have a bachelors or better, FYI.

Re:Work Experience

[societyofrobots]

I occasionally hire people too, and care less about degrees. I want the guy that can do the job.

However I often hire for the US gov't, and they have set pay scales that explicitly say:
higher degrees = more money

I once wanted to hire a high school student to do a job most college graduates couldn't do. My employers said no because his pay scale was too low, and the contracting company couldn't get much out of his salary (they take a % cut).

Anyway, I haven't done a masters yet . . . after four years of work I'm still debating if its worth going back for a masters or not.

Re:Work Experience

[societyofrobots]

I got an R&D job without an advanced degree. I am surrounded by post-docs. I get paid more than about a third of them, too.

The reason? None of them can do what I do, most of which I learned on my own. And I was lucky to have a boss who didn't care so much about degrees.

But I've never seen an R&D job posting that didn't say 'PhD/masters required'.

Re:Work Experience

[Viv]

Universities are typically more interested in simply getting your tuition, and if you qualify, and are above 30 years old, they'll typically be more than willing to take your money and still sell your seat in the class to another applicant. Universities generally don;t like putting highly expereinced business people in classrooms where their woried the student actually trumps the professor in knowledge. Many professors who recognize this where the university doesn't will simply give you the 4.0 for the promise you don't show up to class...

I have three degrees. A BSc in Comp Eng, an MSc in ECE, and an MBA.

Never once have I ever seen anything like this. It's incredibly unethical for one thing, and for another, it assumes that the professor can't handle a student challenging him or her.

I don't know what programs in which schools you've seen this occur in, but can you let me know so I know to never hire anyone who's graduated from them?

Re:Work Experience

[Hognoxious]

You mean he should have found a better company to work for about five years ago.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

It's not about what happens inside the classroom... If the prof coudn't handle it I'd be offended. It's about the politics of the thing; paying the school to sit there and learn little to nothing, plus often being asked by the prof, or challenged back, to add something TO the class, basically becoming a second teacher who's paying instead of being paid to be there. There's also the disruption factor. Many times the prof's material is either outdated by months or years, or his own lack of real world expertise may irritate a seasoned worker, especially one who really does know a lot more than the prof...

Also, students in their 40s or later with long field experience also tend to place a drain on the professor outside of class. Some do this because they'll frequently miss classes due to jobs interfering and then lean on the prof to cath up, some do this because the prof treats them more as a collegue and less as a student (which also introduces fears of favoritism in other students, and can be a morale issue, whether favoritism is actually occuring or not!). In either case, the person who doesn't need the resource is using it up and studetns who can really use the professors out-of-class time have more trouble accessing him.

There are a lot of other reasons too, but in a nutshell, it comes down to this: Universities exists 1) to teach the young, to educate, to mold the mind. 2) to recognize a mind that has been properly molded and provide acredited certification of such. If you have the experience, putting you through the class is a waste of time. Universities and professors alike recognize this. No, you can't exempt every class, and you can't expemt most of tho work even from classes you may be able to exempt (you may still be required to do some papers, programming, large projects, etc, to validate you do in fact have the knowledge) Sitting through the lectures, in most cases that's unnecessary (and a waste of a seat someone else could be sitting in).

What universities do I know for a fact have done this for students? Well, I know for certain several of my collegues have attended Clemson, USC, Laffayette, Hofstra, UT, UM, Hartford, Miami, MIT, and that's a short list. None of them were under 40 when they received their masters, most were masters of business administration though a few were in specialty IT, and all of them attended at least some classes, and did an immense amount of work and study, but putting in the equivalent of 2 full time years? at best they put in half that time...

Also, don;t forget that many universities will recognize some industry certifications as course equivalent. Few people are high enough certified that those count for masters credit calsses, but microsoft does have high level certifications that reach that point, other people have simply been lead designers on industry changing products, and the work alone qualifies them to the masters level in many universities eyes. I dont's know any of these people personally, but I've met several of them...

Re:Work Experience

[WgT2]

Masters WTF

Not only do you get a pay raise for it, but you get better looks at better companies. Also, there is a lot of training that happens to acquaint you with working within any company's environment and a Masters degree helps to convey that you are able to learn AND, communicate what you have learned, according to rigorous requirements.

My last argument: many community colleges will allow you to teach classes with just a Masters degree == more $$ on the side (or even full time).

Re:Work Experience

[CyrusSukhia]

If you find yourself deeply interested in something you're studying or see something that you want to devote your attention to, then do it. It doesn't actually have to be in a structured academic environment. Now that we've gotten the idealistic stuff out of the way (more and more easily done it seems), the fact of the matter is that a master's degree gives you leverage for better (starting) pay. After a few years at work, however, your performance will determine what you are paid and not your education. I'd say, do it if you have the time/money and you really want to dive deep into something. Otherwise, go and start working.

Re:Work Experience

[Viv]

I'm referring specifically to receiving a letter grade in a class for not coming to class (like you originally stated).

Waiving a requirement is one thing. Giving a grade for not showing up, on the other hand, is unethical in the extreme.

Re:Work Experience

[elnyka]

I would disagree regarding 1) what an average student constitutes, and 2) the risk of not having a superb thesis.

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For one, what is an average student? Even from institution to institution, this changes. I've seen students doing innane master thesis/projects still landing jobs. It's all about developing connections while in grad school.

An "average" student that cannot do so will be an average student regarless, MS or no MS degree. Certainly he will get a job, and it is all fair to say that it might be a good paying one. But in the development of one's career, a MS can prove invaluable.

Is it a sure thing? Of course not, but neither it is sure that having a BS degree will guarantee the owner of it has what it takes to be a good developer independently of the number of years of experience he gets after graduation.

I will say that, based on my own personal observations, even a Ph.D. will not hurt your chances of getting a job outside of academics. It will change the landscape in which you will work. You would not need for the typical enterprise computing jobs, but it could help you in consulting for large projects in large scale enterprises, software manufactures and in the defense sector if you specialize in software engineering ,security, compilers or distributed/high performance computing.

Any ammount of cummulative education and experience has the potential to hurt you or help you. The variables that come into play are social, economical, personal and geographical. It is not solely dependent on one's professional or academic background.

Re:Work Experience

[TheSpoom]

They're going to fire me for showing up in a nice suit and doing a good job?

Fuck em, I'll take my services somewhere where they're respected.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

Why is giving a 4.0 to someone who completes the major projects and scores a 90% on a final exam a problem? Not showing up to class does not imply there is not a curriculum on some level that is completed, or, that a student can convince the professor that a vast and deep knowledge of the subject matter is already posessed.

The grade is not given for sitting through the lecture, it's given in recognition that the knowledge is in fact in your brain. HOW the knowledge got there is irrelevent, provided some proof exists that it is there.

Re:Work Experience

[Alexpkeaton1010]

Get your masters. It should be free anyway. You have the rest of your life to work. The pay jump I got from having a Masters in EE out of college was probably very close to equivalent of what someone with 2 years of good ratings. You miss out on 2 years pay, but you have an advanced degree that is good for the rest of your professional career, and maybe even some good research that you can bank on. Also, people with advanced degrees are generally given less crap work to do. I was a digital design engineer from Day 1. I did not spend my days flipping switches as a junior test engineer (although that experience would have been very useful upon reflection).

Re:Work Experience

[Viv]

Okay, I think you seriously need to go back and re-read what you wrote. Because what you're saying now and what you said before are two very different things.

Contrast:

Universities generally don;t like putting highly expereinced business people in classrooms where their woried the student actually trumps the professor in knowledge. Many professors who recognize this where the university doesn't will simply give you the 4.0 for the promise you don't show up to class...

With:

Why is giving a 4.0 to someone who completes the major projects and scores a 90% on a final exam a problem?

Re:Work Experience

[Viv]

To wit: Giving someone a 4.0 because they did the work and did 4.0-level work is totally different than giving someone a 4.0 for not showing up to class as you originally claimed.

Re:Work Experience

[Sandbags]

typo: for the promise you don't HAVE to show up to class... my fault.

I've seen cases as well where collegues of mine double and tripple booked classes, same day and time, after working with a professor or three.

They take 1 class they can't outright exempt, or feel they really need, and schedule 2 other classes under "learn from home" special arrangements with the profs. The profs know they don't need the class, give them an exam on day 1, or ask for a body of proof of effort in the field, validate their knowlede, and give them a 4.0 before class ever begins. Then you don;t show up to class and get a 4.0.

Other times I've seen proffs understand that life is intrusuve, and taking time to take a class they know you don't need, but the university policy insists on, well, they just let you slide, provided you get good marks on the exams. By telling you to not show up at all, other students who fall under "required attendance policies" are none the wiser.

don't do it....

[Anonymous Coward]

spend the money on partying and living like a gypsy for 2 years instead.

Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[MichaelSmith]

I know a lot of people who don't work in the area which they studied for their masters. Thats a waste of time IMO. I think you should decide now what type of work you are going to do after university and make sure you can directly benefit from the extra time you spend on your education.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[backwardMechanic]

If you learn nothing in your Masters that you can transfer to any other field, then yeah, true. But then it was a pretty poor Masters, wasn't it?

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[MichaelSmith]

I know I guy who did his masters on high performance parallel computing. Now he manages a UI development project.

Buzz Aldrin did his masters on Orbital Rendezvous. If he hadn't flown on Apollo he wouldn't have used it at all.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[MrMr]

I know a lot of people who don't work in the area which they studied for their masters. These time wasters are invariably more interesting and more capable than the people who already knew at 18 what they'd be doing the rest of their lives.
Why do you presume your chosen profession even exists in 30 years?

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[backwardMechanic]

I did a Masters in artificial intelligence. I now work (as a physicist) developing MRI machines. But I can still hold a half-sensible conversation about neurons, to the general surprise of the local physiologists. Knowing something about image processing is also useful. The early scientists had it right - you knew something about all science. Of course science is bigger now, but we're all too specialised. I've never met a scientist disadvantaged by a broad background. Or an engineer. It's good for the imagination.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[codemaster2b]

I think you should decide now what type of work you are going to do after university and make sure you can directly benefit from the extra time you spend on your education.

This is impossible for most people to do, I would guess. I myself graduated from Computer Engineering a year ago. After being immersed in academia for 5 years, there is no way I could have figured out what I wanted to do, as far as my career goes. And I had already had 4 years of internship experience on top of that. I had considered getting a masters, and a Ph.D.

I decided that I would try and pay off some student loans before continuing. One thing He is probably NOT AWARE OF (if he's reading this), is just how much in debt he is... the amount of money they let you borrow is quite high, and getting more in debt from a master's degree is dangerous.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[Anonymous Coward]

A master's degree doesn't have the general education component that a bachelor's degree does. The amount of transfer will be much less.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[LeaningTowerAvenger]

I got a PhD with a thesis in wireless networks and now I work in the field of high-end image processing. A PhD (and a Master too) should give you not only specific competences but a "forma mentis" to reason and solve problem: it should not give you tools but it should teach you the way to build your own tools. BTW... R.A. Heinlein said: "specialization is for insects" ;-)

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[carlmenezes]

Do your Masters. Choose a field you want to study. Bonus points if its something you can use immediately. Knowledge is a good thing. Some of the best discoveries in science have been made using knowledge from another discipline. Do not underestimate yourself or the knowledge you might gather. Just apply yourself so you are able to fully absorb and apply what they teach you - doing a Masters for the sake of passing exams is truly a waste.

Re:Only do your masters on a topic you will use

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Maybe not in subjects like basket weaving. But I think it's worth it in the sciences. You'll learn how all of the pieces from your undergrad subjects come together, you'll come away with a knowledge of the choices that someone with a BS won't, and you'll be far better equipped to present new ideas, architectures, etc as a whole. Companies do pay for this. Another consideration is will you ever go back to school? It's far better to keep going when you're used to it and don't have to worry about a real job at the same time.

its not about money

[wjh31]

when you are considering taking on a masters/Ph.D/etc, its not really about money. Its about you, how much you are enjoying academic life, and how far you want to pursue it. if the only reason you are considering postgraduate courses is that it might increase your employability, then you shouldnt be considering them.

Re:its not about money

[stonewallred]

Lol, the difference between a BA and a MA in the field I am chasing is about 30K a year at a minimum. You might not think it is about the money, for most folks everything is about the money.

Re:its not about money

[SalaSSin]

Indeed.

If you're pretty sure you can start a high pay in a company where you're sure of your job (eg. no trial period), then, and only then, i'd say get that job.

Otherwise you would be foolish not to go for your masters. It's giving you a nice headstart on your paycheck, compared to a Bachelor's degree.

Re:its not about money

[DNS-and-BIND]

So, hedonism is the only reason to get a higher education? Because it makes you feel good? There is something horribly wrong with that idea.

Re:its not about money

[Another, completely]

In computer science jobs, a masters might get you a couple of thousand per year higher pay, but you've lived at a lower salary for a year (or two) and could have been up to that higher starting salary with normal pay rises by the time you start there with your masters. For total lifetime earnings in computer science, I doubt it will help.

On the other hand, I don't think it hurts that much either, and it's a chance to do a more in-depth study of your chosen field. It's also an opportunity to see the different views on the subject at a different university, meet interesting new people (including future professional contacts), and enjoy learning for its own sake. Once you're on a non-academic payroll, you will start needing a reason to study interesting subjects during daylight hours.

In short, I agree with wjh31: if you like to study, it's a good way to spend some time. If you just want to earn more money, get a job with prospects, work hard, and get promoted.

Re:its not about money

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with feeling good?

Re:its not about money

[martyros]

What reason would you propose for getting a "higher education"? We're not talking about graduating high school here, we're talking about advanced degrees like a Master's or PhD.

Having a PhD myself, I can say that it's a hard enough process if you actually *do* enjoy research. If you don't enjoy it, it's just torture.

And in the end, everything anyone does is aimed at enjoyment of some kind. The difference between "good" people and "bad" people isn't whether they try to do things that make them happy, but what they choose to pursue to make them happy.

Re:its not about money

[Anonymusing]

Actually, I was going to say that the best part about my master's degree is not really the degree itself, or the income, but the people I came to know: incredibly smart professionals in the field, both as my instructors and my fellow students. It has given me a lot of good connections, which in turn gave me a much bigger job field and led me my current job (which I love). So while greater income potential is a good thing, there are many other benefits to a grad degree. I studied things and met people that I would not have had time to do if I was just kept working at my prior job.

Re:its not about money

[thedrx]

Yeah, haha. I chose my degree and path based on what would be more enjoyable for me. I tend to choose most activities this way, and I can't complain.

Especially funny when you consider GP's sig and P's nick :D

Re:its not about money

[tero]

This pretty much sums it all up.
Work experience gets you employability -
Masters/Ph.D is about seeing just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I never really enjoyed academia when I was younger so I went for work experience and I have never regretted it.
Having said that - now on my older days - I'm finding myself strangely fascinated by the idea of exploring the "deep ends" of my field in academic environment.
Once you get into "working life" you'll find out that there's really not that many opportunities to research on the same level as there is in academia. I've been toying with the idea of "going back", however that will have to wait until the children are a bit older (other priorities at the moment).

Re:its not about money

[TapeCutter]

"Because it makes you feel good? There is something horribly wrong with that idea."

I didn't know thw pope posted on slashdot....

Re:its not about money

[DNS-and-BIND]

Whatever happened to education being its own reward? Education for hedonism is called "community college cooking courses" and for profit is called "ITT institute of technology" - both are mere training, not education (unless you're some mouth-breathing resident of Bush country).

Re:its not about money

[xouumalperxe]

Whatever happened to education being its own reward? Education for hedonism is called (...)

Education for hedonism is called "education for its own reward". Think about it.

Re:its not about money

[digitig]

So, hedonism is the only reason to get a higher education? Because it makes you feel good? There is something horribly wrong with that idea.

It's better than the idea that money is the only reason to get a higher education. After all, what do people want the money for? Because having it makes them happy? Because they can use it to get things that make them happy? Because they can do things with it that make them happy? If the money is just a means to an end (and I'd question the sanity of anybody who thinks it's an end in itself) then you should look at how to maximise that end, not how to maximise the means.

Re:its not about money

[Alex Belits]

No, he has Catholics to do it for him.

Re:its not about money

[Draek]

You say "hedonism", I say "philosophy". You say "because it makes you feel good" I say "in the pursuit of knowledge itself".

And honestly, if you believe there's something "horribly wrong" with the idea, you've neither met many PhDs and seen how incredibly common it is, nor given enough time to consider the alternative and its terrible implications.

Re:its not about money

[grimw]

By that logic, I could've just foregone a college degree in general and just relied on a HS diploma; after all, I could've been making cash at some low-level software job for 4 years! Except, in CS positions I've seen, a MS makes quite a bit of difference in the opportunities and pay presented to you.

Re:its not about money

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want the big bucks, go to business school. If you want to get in good with God, go to a seminary or theological school. There's no reason to be in CS other than what you call "hedonism" - a personal attraction to the field. If you hate computers then you really shouldn't be in CS.

Re:its not about money

[Opportunist]

No. A horribly wrong idea would be to get a higher education just for the sake of a bigger salary.

Your goal, when aiming at a higher education, should be that you want to know more, that you want to gain more insight, that you want to lift yourself above the average. If money is the motivator, your goal is just to get a sheet of paper that says "pay me more". It cheapens the whole degree.

The motivation, in any kind of degree or education you get, should be the love for learning and the deeper insight in the matters. Not the secondary benefits like money (or, almost worse, a hope for a higher status amongst peers).

Re:its not about money

[Anonymous Coward]

Great post. Getting my master's increased my starting salary by about $10K US when I got a job after graduation, but I really miss being in the academic world. I want to go back to get a PhD...just because! I mean I make a lot more money now, but I have to work on boring shit that someone else thinks is important. Back in school I got to do research in areas that I found important. Unfortunately for me, my family obligations requires more money so I stay at my job. I think a Master's is WORTH it whether you are in it for the money or for the environment. Both are pluses IMO.

Re:its not about money

[ivan256]

The "learn what you enjoy" theory has always seemed like a giant load of bull to me.

Education is hugely expensive. Going to school for what you want instead of for something practical is a massive, massive luxury. Unless you're wealthy, or on scholarship, you should go to school for something that pays the bills. By the time you get to college, you're an adult. It's time to start acting like one.

What does that mean for getting a masters? If somebody is going to pay for it for you, you'd be a fool not to do it. Beyond that, you need to do a cost/benefit analysis. Remember that if you choose incorrectly, paying for your education will have enormous impact on your quality of life for decades.

Re:its not about money

[shess]

+1 to this. A decade ago when I started working at a real company (after a decade as a consultant), I noticed in interviews that a lot of candidates had postgraduate degrees, and they weren't that good. It freaked me out a bit, since I had a B.A. in computer science, and I wondered if that would impact my future prospects?

Turns out, though, that the best way to have a good career is to do something you enjoy, be good at what you do, and work with great people. Those are all somewhat orthogonal to how far you took your education. Do the postgraduate work if it seems likely that you'll be able to do interesting work with interesting people. Go out and get a job if you can do interesting work with interesting people. If none of your options involve interesting work or interesting people, try to figure out why not, because having that network of interesting people is ALL that matters in terms of your future job prospects.

Slight caveat if you're talking about doing your postgraduate work MIT or Stanford or Berkeley or UW Madison or someplace well-known for being awesome in the field. Don't skip that to work at a second-rate company.

Normally...

[Half-pint HAL]

Normally I'd say "get a job", but there's not as many of those going around as there used to be. (Damn banks and their irresponsible lending.) What are the employment prospects where you are? Doing a masters is more productive than being unemployed, and much better on the CV....

HAL.

Re:Normally...

[RevWaldo]

Agreed. In a down economy education is an excellent investment. Sometime after you graduate the economy will turn around, another bubble-enhanced can-you-start-yesterday hiring frenzy will start, and you'll be awfully glad you have the MA when it does.

Just remember to watch your debts and put some money in the bank. Nothing lasts forever.

go!

[__aardcx5948]

As someone without any education at all, I'd say go for the Masters, then get your experience after that. No?

Re:go!

[Ren Hoak]

I've interviewed many a candidate with a strong academic background (masters, perhaps some PhD work), little to zero experience, and what showed up in the interview: little to zero comprehension of the issues that would be important on the job. I've also interviewed candidates with weak academic backgrounds (uncompleted undergrads) but a few years of experience, and what showed up in the interview: they had the ability to listen and learn, and were interested in the job because of their own passion (versus feeling that their degree made it the only option).

I'm not saying a degree makes one unqualified, of course... I'm just saying that an unqualified statement such as As someone without any education at all, I'd say go for the Masters, then get your experience after that. No? really doesn't look at any relevant issues.

Re:go!

[DrgnDancer]

Doesn't it?

Point 1: The economy sucks. Finding entry level jobs is difficult. Not impossible of course, but difficult. A long period of post-graduation unemployment or under-employment is likely under any circumstances.

Point 2: Two years from now he will enter the workforce looking for the same entry level positions that he would have been looking for now if he chooses to skip the degree. He'll just have a fatter resume. In many companies this will mean somewhat more money for the same job, in other it might mean a few more opportunities are open that simply don't exist with only a BS.

Point 3: He may, or may not, make more more money fresh out of school. It's likely though not guaranteed that he will. Given (1), the risk seems reasonable.

Point 4: (And this is the big one) In six or seven years when he starts considering moves to "Senior" or "Team Lead" types of positions, he has a masters degree. This is a huge advantage in applying for these types of jobs. I know, I did not finish my masters, and now I'm looking at having to go back to do so. Many times you can't even get past the HR filters on a "Senior" position without one. These are the positions that provide either a springboard into management or kind of freedom from mirco-management that most tech types crave. Since most people want one or the other (or both) giving yourself a leg up in getting these senior roles is a good thing.

How many times are we going to hear this question?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, we haven't heard this question verbatim before, but the:

I want to go to college and get my BS in IS - what should I do?

or

I want to get out of IS and pursue basket weaving - what should I do?

or

Do I need a degree to be a Tape Monkey?

type questions are pretty much the same.

Though the questions aren't the same the answers will be.

This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[berenixium]

The IT industry isn't so great at the moment, and as soon as job cuts come about in a company, the IT people are always the first ones to have their heads put on the block, then get chopped.

Companies seem to think that the IT dept is the most expendable for some reason. Now things are so bad that when a vacancy does crop up, there are more jobless candidates applying now than ever before. It's ridiculous until the economy gets better and God knows when that is going to happen.

My advice is to spend another year in study and sharpen your skills and knowledge. You really haven't got anything to lose until things get better. Except money. But there are always ways of making money, eh? Websites, your own ventures, freelancing while studying, part-time work in other industries like retail. The pre-bubble era of plenty in the early 2000's is long gone, but it happened once and I can easily predict it will happen again as more turn to online purchasing to save some cash in these troubled times. So such plentiful times will come again. Enjoy your studies if you decide to carry them on.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

Computer Engineering is not IT, why would he worry about what happens to them?

Personally I recommend finding at a job at a place that will pay for your masters.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Xoron101]

My previous boss told me this once, and so true it is:
It'll never be cheaper to get more education, so if you're going to do it, do it now.

In a few years, you'll likely have a spouse, kids, mortgage, car payment. Those things will be a huge factor if you ever wanted to go back and do your Masters.

And if the economy is in the tank for the next year or two, then it's probably the best time to be doing more education.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Ibag]

Companies seem to think that the IT dept is the most expendable for some reason.

You say this as if it is a mystery why a company would feel this way. But regardless of whether IT is as expendable as some companies may treat it, I think it is important to understand why things are the way they are.

To any large company, there are essentially two parts. First, there is the part of the company devoted to whatever the company sells. This will include engineering and design, product, sales and marketing, and perhaps some portion of management.

On there other side, there is the part of the company that is there so that the company runs smoothly. This is the part of the company that is there to facilitate and support the first part of the company. IT is in this group (in a non-IT company), as are janitorial staff, a certain other amount of management, and other random departments which might vary from company to company.

There is, of course, some overlap between the two sides. For example, while you might consider the running of the website an IT role, it is also essential to sales. Still, viewing a company as having the two sides is helpful for understanding why companies see IT the way they do.

When money is tight, and a person needs to decide where to cut money, they cut the things they deem less important to their survival. They can refuse to buy a new stereo or new underwear, but they can't refuse to buy any more food.

Similarly, when money is tight and a company needs to decide what to cut, they get rid of what they deem to be the least important to their survival. From upper management's point of view, they see what the impact of laying off staff in their core business will be, and will be less likely to view management as just support. However, it is harder for them to see why they can't just halve their IT staff or janitorial staff. Maybe the floors will get vacuumed less often or it will take slightly longer to deploy Windows 7, but the company will still do what it does roughly as well as it currently does, right? (That is not to say that IT isn't crucial to a company's success, just that it is much harder for upper management to appreciate the relative worth of IT staff).

It's much harder to appreciate exactly how expendable support staff is, but it isn't that hard to see why management would view support staff as more expendable than others.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[berenixium]

Just because he is studying CE doesn't mean he won't work in IT. And vice versa. There are many disciplines.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[berenixium]

Sadly true, as I've seen it happen to numerous friends in different company's as well as to myself. Purely business decisions but they still sting.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Cro Magnon]

Similarly, when money is tight and a company needs to decide what to cut, they get rid of what they deem to be the least important to their survival. From upper management's point of view, they see what the impact of laying off staff in their core business will be, and will be less likely to view management as just support. However, it is harder for them to see why they can't just halve their IT staff or janitorial staff. Maybe the floors will get vacuumed less often or it will take slightly longer to deploy Windows 7, but the company will still do what it does roughly as well as it currently does, right? (That is not to say that IT isn't crucial to a company's success, just that it is much harder for upper management to appreciate the relative worth of IT staff).

I understand that POV, but companies still need to be careful what they cut. They can get along without floor sweepers, but if they fire too many plumbers, they could be in deep shit.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[0xdeadbeef]

Companies seem to think that the IT dept is the most expendable for some reason.

Perhaps they are? Pretending you are the same as an engineer or software developer doesn't mean you create value like one.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[LanMan04]

MOD PARENT UP.

I got my Master's in CS when I was 23, in 3 semesters (full time) with only a 1 semester break between undergrad and grad. THAT is the way to do it. Now I have a house, wife, kid, and 40-hour job, and I'm still in my 20s. Imagine my life another 5 years from now, it'll be even busier. It would be really, REALLY hard to put in that much school work now. I probably wouldn't do it at this point, just too busy.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Sandbags]

"IT people are always the first ones to have their heads put on the block, then get chopped.
"
I strongly disagree. 3 of the 4 fortune 1000 companies I have worked for have gone through layoff cycles (as well as more than a dozen of those I've contracted for). IT staff have typically been considdered some of the most imporant, and generally immune from layoff.

That's not to say helpdesk staff didn't get cut besed on diminished user loads, it's not to say that IT budgets didn't get cut dramatically, leaving some deployment staff with nothing to deploy, but most companies know a few things; 1) staff cuts are generally temporary, but the servers and systems already in place need to stay in place, and continue to be maintained until staff can be increased again (unless the cut is permanant, but then systems generally need to be consolodated for cost which may actually require more IT staff in the short term). 2) IT people who question their job stability are a major risk. It's unlikely they'll damage systems, or steal data, but it is likely they'll let systems "slip" and even short disruptions to operation are a major issue. 3) most IT departments are grossly underdocumneted. Loosing a few people means loosing valuable knowledge about the infrastructure, lessons learned in system integration for that environment, or something passwords to long unused systems. Key administrative controlls are easily passed on to a new admin our outsourced agency, but do YOU know the ADSR passwords to each of your domain controllers, even the ones installed 5 years ago? 4) vendors have strong relationships with IT staff. Rebuilding those relationships can be costly.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[clifyt]

"Imagine my life another 5 years from now, it'll be even busier. It would be really, REALLY hard to put in that much school work now."

Not really. You learn to adapt to the life and you go on. I'm 37, finishing up my thesis for my Masters in a field COMPLETELY different than the technical crap I started out with, and I still find time.

No, the house isn't as spotless as it could be...I think I mow maybe twice a month in the summer. My side-business is kinda on autopilot (I do consulting only when I need to pay for toys)...and I still work 40 hours a week. I maintain a social life and a 4.0 standing...last semester was a struggle as I upped things to 15 hours of class (in my undergrad, I was lucky to deal with 12 while working full time).

But the thing is, the older you get, the more you know if you really want something and if it is going to help you or not. In my case, it most certainly has helped and has opened possibilities I could never have imagined.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[rnelsonee]

But I would also argue that it's not difficult to get a Master's for free: get a job at a place that pays for higher ed. I just got my Master's last week and I didn't have to pay a dime.

Sure a part-time Master's takes longer, and you miss out on more college life, but I thought it was worth it. I'm already looking at schools for another Master's, or a certificate.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[digsbo]

Parent makes good points. In addition, along these lines, advanced degrees could differentiate you by allowing you the OPPORTUNITY to get an interesting and challenging job in research/development/applied research, and be a key contributing member of a technology company, with opportunity for advancement to director level positions and higher.

However, if you go for the advanced degree route, be prepared to compete with the best people in the world in your specialty, and understand that if you can't come up with original, meaningful, material work, you'll have your bozo bit flipped and be let go rather quickly.

Alternatively, learn the engineering side of things (quality assurance, project leadership, etc.), and with a bachelor's or less, you can make decent money and be in demand as a senior engineer/line manager.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[nametaken]

I've always used the short expression, "Most people make the company money. IT costs the company money."

Of course this is the short-sighted view.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[King_TJ]

That's one reason I've stuck to working for small companies. The pay potential isn't there like it is for the bigger firms, but by contrast, I *am* I.T., or a big part of it. If they want to let me go, they're essentially saying "We don't need any computer support in-house anymore." -- and that's a much tougher thing for them to swallow.

I'd rather be less expendable and have more control over what I do than have a fatter paycheck, but a constant fear of a layoff.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Tablizer]

[IT dept is the most expendable for some reason.] it is important to understand why things are the way they are...[for example] They can refuse to buy a new stereo or new underwear, but they can't refuse to buy any more food.

So IT is the underwear of the company. Got it. Can we say that marketing is the deodorant?
       

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not asking about IT, he's asking about Computer Engineering. There's an important difference.

As in, these are the people who design and create the software/hardware products which your company sells, NOT these are the people that make sure your servers are still running properly.

I'm also going for a Computer Engineering degree (and graduating this week). I hope employers know the difference and the engineering job market is better than the IT job market. But, I for one am staying on for my masters.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[raddan]

Unlike other support departments, however, IT, done correctly, is also a productivity multiplier, and that's because technology is a productivity multiplier. But keeping that technology running and training people to use it requires people who do nothing but specialize in IT. It's sad-- I do see IT people getting axed regularly, like they're just some kind of expense, but when management does this, they shoot themselves in the foot. Otherwise valuable employees spend their time, e.g., doing tedious calculations with spreadsheets when the IT department could have set them up with a simple database that would do most of this work for them.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

Software Engineering is not IT. IT is looking at folks email and following around some arrogant dimwit laughing at all his inappropriate jokes and bringing up badly designed citrix farm when it goes down because you used all the bandwidth playing unreal tournament.

Those guys get fired. Software engineers may still be fired, but at least they are not IT. If your job is to produce a product that your company makes money on your in the clear. If you job is to be an arrogant crony, they you need to worry.

Oh, and the school part. Although it may be harder to go back after making a lifer for yourself outside of academia you will certainly take more from a MS degree after you know what the real world is like. You may even know what you want to specialize in, making you decision much more valuable. Just my experience YMMV.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[HappyGilmore]

"In a few years, you'll likely have a spouse, kids, mortgage, car payment. Those things will be a huge factor if you ever wanted to go back and do your Masters." Totally true. I'm an IT semi-pro going for my Masters while working. I'm not even close to my pay ceiling, but I'm hoping to move a little bit closer when I graduate. I don't have kids or a house, so school is the best thing to spend my money on right now. I say go for the degree.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

He isn't in IT. He isn't in computer software either - how is everyone misreading the summary?

He is doing Computer Engineering which involves a good measure of both programming and hardware design. Think of the embedded systems market, smartphones, MP3 players. That kind of stuff.

He isn't running websites or writing Windows applications. C'mon people.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I knew a few people wandering around a few years back saying that 'buying a house now will never be cheaper' too. Yes it's true it probably won't get cheaper, but it's far more than an 'investment with return on income' equation.

It really is up to what you want. I earn as much as my MS friends in CS now. I went to work, they went to grad. We do nearly the same jobs now - and earn the same...

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

"In a few years, you'll likely have a spouse, kids, mortgage, car payment."

Not so fast, son.

Your "insightful" points are so narrow-minded it's comical.

The spouse might in fact be able to support our boy while he
goes for his masters. And he might also have been smart enough to pay cash for a not-quite-new car, which is what anyone who is wise with money will do, unless they're filthy rich.
Lastly, perhaps he won't have a mortgage because he has planned his life well enough to avoid boxing himself into a financial corner prematurely.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Xoron101]

Not to be rude, but that is somewhat shortsighted. Today != 15 years from now. With the masters, you likely have a better chance of bigger $$$. Of Course, your mileage may vary.

Disclosure: I'm a CS, but don't have my masters and have been working for 10 years. I don't think that's limited me so far, but I have 30+ years left in the workforce. So I may hit this ceiling someday.

Re:This is a dead parrot. It's dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, figure out if you can afford to do it, time and cost-wise. But, if you decide to go for the Master's, a couple points from someone just finishing up a Master's degree himself.

1) DO NOT change your program once you start. The headache isn't worth it (trust me).

2) Try very hard to find a program that will pay you to attend; borrowing money to do this just adds insult to the financial injury you WILL experience from loss of income over two years.

3) The point of the MA is not where you studied, but with whom you studied, and what you studied. Look for an assistantship in your area; that will benefit you more than classwork alone. Be prepared to spend a lot of time on work outside of class, meeting with classmates, working on projects, et cetera.

Silicon Valley versus Institutional Education

[billhuey]

Depends on the situation. If you can get a good coding job in a good situation where you can learn a lot, then the master's degree isn't worth it.

I'd continue with education if I couldn't find a decent gig. There's something to be said about doing and open source project as well to get experiences that you can't get in either college or a job situation.

These days, if you have the raw skill, say for kernel development, going through a master's degree program at a University of California minimally would be a waste of time even for Berkeley or something like that.

You can even cut that off sooner than that in that a wide variety of folks drop out of college to do the same thing and just do not suffer from not having either degrees.

It's situation sensitive however.

Do Both

[iron-kurton]

I ended up getting employed full time right out of college. I accumulated 4 years of good experience, at which point I decided to go back to school part time.

The great thing about this is that if you can find an employer to help you pay for your higher education, that sweetens the deal. The downside is that your work obligations always come first, no matter what, especially if the company is paying. This is especially true if the job requires travel.

I can tell you working full-time and going to school part-time is not easy, especially if you have a family like I do. But it's definitely doable if you are dedicated and have a wife who is willing to put up with it for the next 2-3 years. Just don't count on much of a social life.

Re:Do both

[cfriedt]

I can't agree more. I was lucky enough to be able to work 100% from home for my company, right out of my bachelor's degree. I told them I wanted to do a master's degree in a relevant field, and they saw a benefit from that. Now I'm doing my master's degree abroad in Germany, where there is no tuition. This allows me to continuously improve my professional experience, taking a slight reduction in salary, while getting a master's in a highly relevant field. The time-zone difference means that I can work evenings from Germany and be online as if I were back in North America, so there really is no difference from my employer's perspective. The lecture schedule is fairly relaxed, and I even have a couple of days off every week.

Re:Do both

[cfriedt]

I forgot to mention, that an added bonus is cheap vacationing!! Flights are unbelievably cheap here, to fly to Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.

Re:Do Both

[liamoshan]

As another person who has done both at the same time, I also think this is the way to go. When I graduated from my degree, I went straight into work. It's great to be taking home money, but I found I missed the feeling of constant learning you can only get in academia (while you can and should learn on the job, I feel it's learning of a different nature). After 6 months of work, I enrolled myself to do a Masters in night classes.

Working fulltime and studying part time is hard. It requires time management, prioritisation and most of all, commitment. It's tough when your friends are all going camping for the long weekend while you're at home studying. It's tough when you've got an assignment due at university and a project due at work and you're expected to work late.

The upside of all this is that even more impressive than having a Masters on your resume is being able to show that you can complete a Masters while working. This shows employers you're motivated to continually better yourself, which can be cast in a very positive light in job interviews

Re:Do Both

[BiggerIsBetter]

Just don't count on much of a social life.

Two words: Coeds. Tutoring.

Re:Do Both

[chathamhouse]

context: I'm 1 month away from my masters.

Straight out of university, I recommend going out and landing that job. Get some work experience for at least a few years, have some fun, and see what you like in the Real World version of the field.

With luck, you'll run into something that's a problem for your employer, and potentially a thesis topic worth pursuing professionally.

With more luck, you'll be in an environment that lets you work on your masters part time (3yrs in my case) while collecting a full time paycheck. Very handy that paycheck - I could not have done this on much less than full pay.

With more more more luck, your employer might even pay tuition for you.

With more more more more more more more luck, you'll actually enjoy both your work and your area of focus.

I've been lucky.

Note: part time study & full time work cuts down on fun big time, and makes friends nag you for not attending all social events. Avoid losing friends and your sanity by taking time out, even if it means cramming a few days later.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree completely with this recommendation. Experience puts the academics of a Masters program into real-life perspective. I would also suggest that you consider a non-technical program, such as a MBA. It'll help you understand your technical skills in a business context.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't agree more. Get out and do some work experience, then get your company to put you through an MBA.

As a techie, an MBA is incredibly useful at opening dors.

Re:Do Both

[Morphine007]

Two words: Coeds. Tutoring.

mods: +50billionty, insightful as hell

do it up...

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Both is the way to go. I got my Master's in Computer Engineering starting in my second year of work (they paid for it). It was able to knock it out in a little over a year-and-a-half. I learned a lot of things that you won't necessarily pick up by working (when working, you job is to code something that works, at school you can focus on the best solution, not just a working one). Also, when I was looking for a new job later, I found a very high paying one and the master's was definitely a factor in getting the job.

Re:Do both

[Anonymous Coward]

Good advice. In my primary field (which is not IT) a bachelor's degree was the standard qualification when I graduated. Graduate school was purely for those who planned an academic career.

Now an M.S. is the entry level qualification for most companies, so your resume goes into the circular file instantly if you don't have one, regardless of your experience. This appears to be so that companies can avoid hiring older workers because they are more expensive, particularly for health insurance.

The additional skills gained in graduate school are much less use than two years of experience would be, but in years to come the M.S. may be essential. Getting both at the same time is great.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Another word: Computer Science

Re:Do Both

[raddan]

Seconded. Almost done with my CS degree, despite taking two grad classes and having to travel for work. This semester was a bitch, but I learned a lot.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't count on much of a social life.

Two words: Coeds. Tutoring.

If he's married, one word: Divorce. If you're NOT saddled with a family, it certainly can be a great way to meet other people... I'm 38, married and going back to school part-time for a second Bachelor's (my first degree has nothing to do with IT, which is the field I've been working in for 14 years). For one thing, the classes are ridiculously easy since I have a lot of real-world experience. Like BiggerIsBetter mentioned, there seem to be a lot of bubble-headed coeds in my classes that flirt with me because it's obvious I can help them understand the material. If I weren't married, I'd take advantage of it... and them.

On the other hand, I agree with iron-kurton in that if you can get a job now, and with an employer that will help pay your way to an advanced degree, it's a very good way to go. At any rate, my employer has an educational voucher program where I get up to a certain amount every year to apply, tax-free, toward education (at an approved institution, toward an approved degree program).

I wish I'd taken advantage of the program much earlier in my career here, as I probably could have finished this MIS degree I'm working on and started working on a Master's or MBA as well.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Three words: Computer science coeds?

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Images agrees with you.

Re:Do Both

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Do both Masters + work experience

[jools33]

I took a Masters in Software Engineering - back in the 90s. My masters was specially setup so that an industrial placement with a company was an integral part of the course. By all means take a job now - if you can get a good one - on the other hand - combining your masters course with an industrial placement at a well known company will get you the best of both worlds - and usually there are several bigname companies interested in taking on a motivated masters student as an industrial placement.

Re:Do both Masters + work experience

[aslate]

Indeed, i'm currently posting from my Industrial Placement and it's a great way to get a foot in the door. The University is able to open doors to places you wouldn't normally look at and you can often get an offer after the placement.

I'm currently working for a large investment bank, wouldn't have thought about this level of work before. The placement takes a bit of time out of my term and erases my Summer holiday, but i do get 6 months of paid work experience.

(I am currently fixing last year's intern's project, i'm thinking of scrapping it and starting from scratch!)

Re:Do both Masters + work experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with you I will be finished with my masters degree at the end of August and I would be hurting if I hadn't been getting industry experience at the same time. I learned from my mistakes in my Undergrad. I didn't have much experience and it was virtually impossible to get the job I wanted. So if you can take it work hard in both school and your career and life will be good!

Actually, not sure about the answer

[Kokuyo]

I am pretty torn on this question...

On the one hand, it will never again be as easy to learn as it is now. The older you get and the more time passes between having been in school and then doing it again, the harder it will be. Not only to find the motivation (unless you really do like school), but also to get your brain into learning mode again. Not to think about actually fitting school into your budget, especially if you already have family.

On the other hand, I'd expect you lack experience on what kind of jobs are out there for you and which of them suits you best. If what you like to do best falls into your current degree, then getting a higher degree will make it harder for you to find employment in this field. Wacky companies aside, it is usually not a good idea to hire people with too high degrees for a certain job. Bored people are just as detrimental to your overall success as people who are overworked.

Frankly, without having any idea what you actually LIKE to do with your life, this question is a pretty tough one. As unhelpful as it may be, you should try to match your education with the profession and amount of responsibility you target. The closer you get, the easier things shall be for you.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

On the one hand, it will never again be as easy to learn as it is now. The older you get and the more time passes between having been in school and then doing it again, the harder it will be. Not only to find the motivation (unless you really do like school), but also to get your brain into learning mode again.

Well there's your problem--you're not supposed to stop learning just because you stopped going to school. ;)

I worked for about 15 years before starting on my 4-year degree full-time. So far (at the end of my second year of grad school) I've found academic life easier than having a job. Maybe it's because I developed some time and priority management skills while I was working. Maybe it's because I was frequently in "learning mode" when I was working.

Whatever the reason, I haven't found it significantly harder to learn at age 40 than it was at age 20.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[DNS-and-BIND]

The main problem is, while you're young, you've only ever been a student. After you get out for a while, you get to see the real world. Going back to school, you see exactly how much BS you have to put up with, and how meaningless your studies are. On the other hand, academic life is indeed easy, heck I'd go back if I could.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Going back to school, you see exactly how much BS you have to put up with, and how meaningless your studies are.

Yeah, that actually makes it a tiny bit more difficult going back to school: it's a lot easier to spot assignments that are make-work and/or almost worthless as a means of learning. Sometimes I find it hard to motivate myself through pointless exercises.

On the other hand, if you don't care too much about your GPA, having a BS detector honed by years of "ZOMG THIS MUST BE DONE ASAP" fake business emergencies makes it easier to tell which assignments and classes don't deserve your full attention. ;)

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, I went to university when I was 50 and got honours at 53. Age is a bullshit excuse, either you got it or you aint.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[kramulous]

Yeah, I realise that the older you get, the lower the learning capability. But the older you get the wiser you get. I'm planning to go the more philosophical approach when I get older.

I'm 31 and probably have another 34 working years ahead of me. That is a shitload. And the thing is; I don't even know what I want to know everything about yet. There are a *lot* of things that I want to know everything about. (I believe many younger people get pressured into doing post-graduate study early ... not because that shine more than others ... but because schools have a quota to meet)

See, I have a great job right now. I have to learn new stuff all the time and do lots of cool things. Why would I do extra study now? It would only slow things down (you know, that thesis won't write itself). But later on, probably 38-45 period, I'll start looking into one thing in depth. It may finish at masters, it may finish with PhD. Who knows? But I think my current path feels right for me.

So far I like:
Nonlinear algebra
Parallel rendering
GPU -vs- FPGA -vs- CPU
Haptics
Filesystems
Data Management
Rendering algorithms

Are you going to pick a topic at age 20? I can't pick one yet.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Kokuyo]

And that's my whole point. If you ain't got it, how the hell will you wrap your mind around going to school after a twenty year abstinence?

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Kokuyo]

I am 27 and the one thing I've learnt is that while I'm good at what I'm doing, I really should have done something else.

So keeping this in mind, what good would a degree have done?

Another way of looking at things: Would you enjoy only the goal or the way to get there as well? For me, getting the degree would be a pain, so I would weigh my options differently than someone who likes to study.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[kramulous]

This starts to go into that really gray area called motivation. Don't try and guess what motivates a single person. It's impossible to guess.

Me? After examining many different things, I hope that I have an idea that might change the way things are done and will want to work on it day and night. Not for profit, but just for kicks and being able to point back at it when I'm rocking in my cane chair waiting to move on.

I doubt the OP is going to find any answers here. Actually, I bet he/she goes Masters because they'll get pushed into it by the profs.

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Do a masters because you like to learn more about a field, not because it will get you anywhere moneywise.
2) Do it soon rather than later, because you do tend to forget stuff and life changes (marriage, kids etc) will very soon change your priorities in life.
3) If you can, consider an employer that pays for it and do it as soon as you possibly can ;)

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[kgwilliam]

but also to get your brain into learning mode again.

You must not be in the IT industry...

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Facegarden]

On the one hand, it will never again be as easy to learn as it is now. The older you get and the more time passes between having been in school and then doing it again, the harder it will be. Not only to find the motivation (unless you really do like school), but also to get your brain into learning mode again.

Well there's your problem--you're not supposed to stop learning just because you stopped going to school. ;)...

I agree. I actually dropped out of college for Mechanical Engineering after 4 years (still had general ed to do) to work full time at the company I'd been working part time at.

I've been here 3 years now and have learned so much more than I was learning in school. I've taught myself Solidworks and MasterCAM for CAD and machining, and now run our machine shop with 3 CNCs. I also taught myself C# programming and have been writing some applications for us. I've recently even been learning how to write apps for Android, just for shits. I also taught myself PCB layout and have already made 1 PCB that we've been using in some prototypes.

My buddy was on the same course as me (well, except he graduated, and on time no less) and he is getting his masters in Mechatronics. He's learning some interesting stuff but I can't say he's better off than me. I have huge amounts of practical experience, and I make more than him (by a bit), even though he got hired full time at a major company, and I work at a small place.

I also like practical stuff more than really high level analysis, so this course is better for me.
-Taylor

Re:Actually, not sure about the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

What IT professionals leave the learning mode?

Seriously. The main reason I made my way into IT was because I always had to keep learning. Thats what keeps it interesting, always something new and exciting to get my teeth into.

Experience paper

[GordonCopestake]

If you can get a job do so, if you can't (because of the "current economic climate") get a masters. But whilst you are doing your masters, keep looking for a job.

Given the choice between two candidates for a job: candidate A has 2 years experience doing the job they are going for, candidate B has zero experience of the job they are going for but has a piece of paper that says they have a masters, which would you choose? The guy that can do the job from day 1 and has a proven track record, or the guy that will need hand holding for 6 months to get him up to speed?

In the end, it depends on your skills

[Davemania]

I have friends that have gotten very good jobs after their masters and others that haven't. If you're going to play probability than masters will offer you better chance for better paid jobs. But in the end, it'll be up to you on how you present yourself and the experience and knowledge that you have. If you think the master degree for whatever field will present you with more options, than definiately go for it. Else, get a job, get some proper experience. You can always get your degree at a later date when you know what you're doing.

Go for the masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Get it out of the way now. I believe there is a trend for upper-level jobs requiring a masters or MBA, so if you get this out of the way now, it'll be worth it down the road. My mother pressed me to do the MS after I finished my BS and it was good advice because it would be difficult to do it now -- I simply have too much going on. Of course, you need to be practical about this. I'm assuming you have the time, interest, and money. If you don't have the money, one way to get the university to pay for the MS is to apply for a [funded] PhD and then quit once you get the masters. And you never know...maybe you'll finish the PhD? Or start a company? I think there's so much opportunity to be creative in academia. It's almost altogether absent in the corporate world though, which is one reason I tend to work at startup companies. Hope this helps, Thomas

Re:Go for the masters

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

If you don't have the money, one way to get the university to pay for the MS is to apply for a [funded] PhD and then quit once you get the masters.

That's a really shitty way to get somebody to pay for your MS.

Re:Go for the masters

[cervo]

In my school you cannot get a masters if you are funded. And you cannot drop out of the PhD program, then take the credits to the masters program and pay for the extra. If you don't make PhD you get nothing. No pressure :)

Hence why I'm funding my own Masters prior to making a run for a PhD. Then if I opt out, at least I have something....

Re:Go for the masters

[Tolkien]

I agree, that's a sure way to ruin your professional reputation if only through word of mouth.

All depends on the job your applying for

[kaptink]

All depends on the job your applying for but generally as long as you have a basic qualification, real life work experience is what is valued the most. Best to decide which area of IT you like most and try to find a position that will give you some nice projects, etc to put on your resume. Employer love to see potential employees who have broken new ground in the area that they want to employ them. Qualifications are more valuable if your applying to a large corporation that's more interested in what's on paper and usually suck to work for anyway.

Universities are a business

[Anonymous Coward]

"Most of my professors seem to think that getting a masters is a great idea"

Of course they do, that's how they get paid.

Re:Universities are a business

[noundi]

Haha exactly my thought. But my initial thought was, "which ones don't and why?".

It depends.

[onion2k]

A taught Masters (eg two more years of lectures) is a waste of time compared to two years experience, but a research Masters (two years of independent research under a mentor) is a good opportunity to make a name for yourself in a computing niche. The research one is more difficult, more expensive because you'll need to get to the right conferences and 'market' yourself, and only worthwhile if there's an aspect of computing that fascinates you more than it interests other people.

But...

The economy is shot. There's a chance that you won't be able to get a solid two years of work experience. If ever there was a time to not be in work for a while and take some time to improve your skills and get some "me time" where you're doing what you want to do this is it. If you do a Masters when you finish you'll be entering a work environment where there are lots of people who've graduated with you and then been unemployed for a large proportion of the past 2 years. You'll have an advantage over them.

Re:It depends.

[darkstar949]

Also, another thing to consider in this regards is that the taught Masters is usually considered terminal, if you wanted to go back and get your PhD then might run into some problems getting accepted somewhere. Furthermore, one thing to consider in regards to the research Masters is that it gives you a taste of what getting a PhD would be like. Granted it is by no means the same, but if you don't like doing the research required for the Masters, in terms of just doing research, then you might not want to go for the PhD.

Re:It depends.

[ToasterTester]

I would only do it if you can get and internship or real world experience while in school. I been in industry for 20+ years and used to do developer support and IT. I would interview grad's for jobs most are clueless to real world development and IT issues. They could spout theory for days but ran into walls from coding to troubleshooting because things just work the same. Some places I've worked had interns or grad students working, those people ended up doing great getting with combo of work experience and theory. They got great job offers/promotions once they finished school. You can buy an education but you can't buy experience.

Re:It depends.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aie - The question is flawed. You can't assume that you'll get a job right off the bat. Stuck in the midwest, I ended up sitting on my hands for most of a year before I found work after I finished my undergrad, and that was in an economy far far better than this (c2006).

Figure It Out Yourself

[DynaSoar]

Look at the kinds of jobs people have gotten with a bachelors. If some of them have the kind of job you want, look at what it took them to get it. Do you have that? If not, look at the kinds of jobs people have gotten with a bachelors that you don't want. Are you willing to settle for that?

If you have a masters you can have the kind of job you wanted in the first group whether you have what they had or not. You can also repeat the process above for jobs people have gotten with a masters.

My take as someone who works at a university

[Sycraft-fu]

I'm not a professor, I do computer support for an engineering department so I see an academic environment, but I'm not an academic. That said:

Don't get a masters just for the sake of getting one. You will not get yourself any sort of real leg up. The reason to get a masters is because you want to do research. If there is something that interests you, something you want to study, particularly a research professor you'd like to work under, then it is a good idea. Education for its own sake is never a bad thing. However to just get a masters just to try and get a better job, nah not a good idea.

We have all kinds of students like that in the department where I work. They are hoop jumpers. They see a masters as just another hoop to jump through. However they don't really learn anything from it. They don't do any research, just take a comprehensive exam, and still go out in to the world with a ton of theoretical knowledge and no ability to actually apply it.

What you see is the opposite of what you'd think: The bad students go on, the good ones don't. The top students go and get a job. The bottom students go on to get a masters since they can't find a good job. However the problem isn't education.

Also, if your company wants you to get a masters, they'll send you back. My cousin did this. Got his bachelors and went to work for Boeing. After a few years they said "Hey, you are doing well on this, how about go get your masters?" So he did.

Now the one confounding factor right now might be the crappy job market. If you can't get a job, then maybe staying in school makes more sense. That's a question of finances, and I can't answer it for you since I don't know your situation. However if the option is no job living in poverty or full scholarship living as a student, well then it isn't hard to figure out which you should do.

So, reasons to get your masters:

1) You have something you are really interested in researching, or you know a professor who you are really interested in working with. You are getting it because you want to learn more and enrich yourself.

2) You have a good financial incentive to get it, like a scholarship, and poor financial incentive to go work.

3) You are working in a field that requires a masters. Computer engineering isn't generally one of those, but there are some exceptions. There are some subfields that a masters or PhD is necessary. If you wanted to be a professor that would be an example.

Now these are NOT reasons to get a masters:

1) You want a better job. Probably not really going to help you. It might, and I emphasize might, get you a better entry level position, but work experience counts way more than education after that. So you might find that in 5 years, you were better off getting more work experience than education.

2) You want to put off working because you aren't sure what you want to do. Bad idea. Only way you will know what you like is to try it. So get the job, and if it doesn't work out get another. Don't use school to avoid work, because that doesn't solve anything since work is coming at some point.

3) You "need it to compete." No, you don't. Most CE people don't go on to get a masters. It really isn't needed. If you find yourself unable to compete, the problem is likely not a lack of education, but something else. I mean if you are the sort of person with no problem solving skills (something engineering requires) no amount of school will teach that.

So I can't say if it is the right decision for you since I don't know you or your situation. All I can say is that it is the right decision, so long as it is made for the right reason(s).

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[vonj]

One of the best posts I have seen in a long while.

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[Tony Hoyle]

Why isn't there a rating for 'OK this is the answer.. you can close the thread now'?

Best post I've seen in a while.

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[HighFalutinCoder]

Parent wins. Period.

Don't listen to anybody that tells you what you should do. Most likely their advice would have you following in their footsteps, but no one path is right for everyone.

Your best bet is to understand why those other people chose the paths that they did based on who they are. Then (and here's the hard part), you have to figure out who YOU are, and choose your own path accordingly. Parent post gets you at least 50% of the way there.

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[st2000]

I felt compelled to post in this thread until I read yours. I'm sending this summation to my kid who is on the verge of finishing her undergraduate engineering degree. Nicely done - all bases covered!

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely disagree. Getting a masters and 2 years experience will always destroy having a BA and 5 years experience.

I of course am assuming said experience is similar.

It also depends on the job. Jobs that are for work drones (IT support) dont care about education. you are just making sure things deploy right and they want you to stick around.

Intelligent IT jobs (the fun ones) are thirsty for passionate candidates. They like masters students because they care more than undergrad drones.

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[Anonymous Coward]

The top students go and get a job. The bottom students go on to get a masters since they can't find a good job.

I love it when people make blanket statements such as this.

Re:My take as someone who works at a university

[can'tthinkofagoodnic]

Not saying this to agree or disagree, but I was able to do an MS in computer engineering with no research (we had a non-thesis option). So there are other reasons to do it beyond just the research.

There's no experience like work experience

[el_flynn]

Two years of work experience will do more for you in the long run. Plus, you could always take the masters at some later point in time.

Also, if you're up to it, there's plenty of colleges that'd let you do your MBA on a part-time basis, or at least schedule your classes around your work requirements.

Back when I was doing my Bachelor's degree (full-time course), I also had a regular 40-hour-per-week day job, and was also raising a baby daughter at the same time.

Two words: time management.

Re:There's no experience like work experience

[Alex Belits]

Also, if you're up to it, there's plenty of colleges that'd let you do your MBA on a part-time basis, or at least schedule your classes around your work requirements.

I would just give MBA to everyone who asks, so it will be clear how worthless it is.

However the OP asked about Master degree in Computer Engineering.

Re:There's no experience like work experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the MBA is an important option. It can give you a clear understanding of how management (it could be you one day) thinks and feels. Even in IT you need to see the forest for the trees. Knowing how each department in an organization works and how its goals need to be aligned with the vision and mission of the company can go a long way. In the end, it's all about putting the right people on the bus.

Depeds on what your goals are. I'd overall say yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be careful of the Masters. (coming from someone with one and going for a Ph.D.) I would say yes get one, because later in life it's a check mark for higher positions in engineering.

Now here's the choice, you can get a professional masters (online and/or course work only). This pretty much shuts the door to going on academically. Or do an in residence thesis under an adviser. Yes it will be harder, but it gives you flexibility if you so choose later on.

Please don't do online.. yes it satisfies the checkmark for management positions, but not for engineering. You miss so much of the learning not being around other people going through the process and having alternative ideas proposed (read lab mates calling you out on retarded ideas)

Phd or don't bother

[AuMatar]

There's no real point to a masters in CS. If you want to do research, you need a PHD to get a good spot at a uni. If you want to teach collegiately, you need the PHD if you don't want to be treated like shit by the administration. If you want to do heavy duty research while hired by industry, a phd is respected, anything else has a huge burden of proof, usually in the form of similar experience in the real world. If you want to go into the real world and work, a masters won't make you extra money and won't get you more respect than a BS- a masters with no experience is treated just like a bs with no experience.

So what do you want to do? If it's research or teach, get a PHD. If it's go out and program for a living, stick with the BS.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. With a PhD he could do research at Intel or any other large shop. With a BS, he would be just as well off with a Master's. But either way, he has to make his choice now because later statistically won't be an option.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[negative3]

Computer Engineering != CS. Computer engineering is a part of EE. Here's a single example of the price difference you can see on your first job: A friend of mine and I interviewed at the same company for similar positions. He was finishing his BS in EE and I was finishing my MS in EE. My offer was 18k more than his and was for a higher-level engineering classification. Given that the company average for raises was 3.5%, he would have been making around 4.5k more than when he started in 2 years with the company and wouldn't have been bumped up to engineer 2. Or he could have spent two years to get his MS, made 18k more, and started at the "engineer 2" level. He chose to get his MS.

Most places I looked treated a MS like a BS + 3 years experience. They stated this on the job postings. But my market/industry may be different than others.

Here are some reasons to do your MS now instead of later:
1.) I would have a hard time going back to school after a long break. When you get a job, sure you're at your office for 40 hours a week but you don't have homework, class projects, or finals. Your free time is your time. Some days I like coming home, shutting down my EE side, and playing with my son. And you don't know what will happen during your break - will you get married, buy a house, or have a kid? Each one of those things is a major drain on time, energy, and money.
2.) You like your field and want to learn. There's nothing wrong with expanding your skills.
3.) You don't want to completely enter adulthood yet. Grad school is a nice way to postpone real responsibilities.

But, DO NOT DO A CLASSWORK ONLY MS. If you don't have a research project that ends in a thesis, I will put your resume on the same stack as those who only have a BS. That's the biggest thing. If you can't handle the research, just get a job. Non-thesis MS degrees are for people who are working while getting their degree. If you're young and just going to school, there's no excuse for not doing research. Getting on a funded project can be hard, though.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[GizmoToy]

Computer Engineering != CS. Computer engineering is a part of EE.

Most places I looked treated a MS like a BS + 3 years experience.

I have to agree on both points (and am amazed at the number of people who don't understand your first point). I have a Masters in CompE and found this to be true. At my employer, those with a Masters qualify for a given promotion 3 years before someone with a BS. To reach some of our higher levels, a Masters is a requirement.

I don't know if having your MS will help you significantly in the hiring process, but it may open some doors for you later.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[gatkinso]

That is not true - MS will definately get a salary bump (will have to change jobs to get the bump) not to mention get your resume through HR much easier than with undergrad alone.

In government contracting your resume will be bid at a higher rate thus earning the company more money: this alone makes the masters desireable and is quite frankly why many contractors will subsidize it. If you are going for government employment directly masters will bump you to a higher pay band or substitute for x (usually one) years of experience.

My experince is that a PhD in CS is utterly useless in industry. They don't get paid more, they don't get any preference over an MS, and honestly they don't perform any better. However this is true of a masters-bachelor comparison as well... two former bosses were college dropouts and quite frankly better developers than anyone degreed that I have yet to meet.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[vlm]

Most places I looked treated a MS like a BS + 3 years experience.

From an ageism standpoint, that is not so good, if you got your MS in only 2 years. That means you just lost a year of your career.

Its really bad if you are going back to school at an older age. If you thought it was hard getting a job at 40, imagine being 42 and having the job search go as bad as if you are 45!

Re:Phd or don't bother

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to have a stereotype, thinking that Master degree is all about researching. Have a look at the Master in Software Engineering program (http://www.msse.umn.edu/) for example, it doesn't do much researching, but focus mostly on engineering.

I'm taking it while working full time. Yes, the class suffers a lot with the intensive program, but we are happy because most of us are reaching to a whole new level with software engineering skills that aren't taught during undergrad, skills that will take at least 5 years working in big corporations to obtain.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[darkstar949]

As with most things, it kind of depends upon which segment of industry you are in, some companies will be a limit on how far you can go in the company with just a Bachelor's degree. However, then the question usually becomes how long you see yourself working in that segment of industry.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[Anonymous Coward]

So what do you want to do? If it's research or teach, get a PHD. If it's go out and program for a living, stick with the BS.

I am sometimes given a big stack of resumes to screen, and a tight time budget. To do it quickly, you need some pretty brutal criteria. One of ours is that anything less than a Masters is not even considered. THAT is why you want your Masters. It's employment insurance.

Re:Phd or don't bother

[Anonymous Coward]

This is fact. The MSCS on top of a BSCS doesn't matter. A PhD otoh opens a lot of doors.

If you have a BA degree in basket weaving, however, and can somehow worm your way into a MSCS program, you'll be much better off (than a basket weaver).

A.C., PhD

Look at a part-time masters

[herwin]

Most young professionals work on a masters part-time. A good employer will pay the fees.

Re:Look at a part-time masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Maybe it works that way where you are, but here in Indiana, developers at every skill level are typically treated as a commodity. In my 15 years of professional experience, only a couple of my colleagues have been working on their education part-time -- most had a life, and/or a family.

I'm a practitioner, not an academic. For me, 2 years of specialized research would take away from becoming the flexible generalist the market demands, and hone your skills in a direction less likely to help you succeed in the business world.

If you want a masters, and you're planning to enter the business world, go for an MBA.

Re:Look at a part-time masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Most young professionals work on a masters part-time. A good employer will pay the fees.

Right. That's what I did: worked for the Government and went to grad school at night with the gov't paying the fees. In the long run it probably meant that my last 25 years of service were at one or two GS (pay levels) higher.

Re:Look at a part-time masters

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with this. I did a CS masters degree part time spread out over 3 years or so. My employer gave me X dollars per year and at the local state university it pretty much covered it. Did it help me in my career? Directly, no, as I literally switched careers / fields the same week I earned my degree. However, having it has proven to be quite valuable as I've transitioned into my new career.

master gives you

[Elisanre]

more money..

Grad school plus internships

[cbhacking]

I'm actually in a similar position (about to graduate in CSE, deciding where to go next). I probably have a job lined up, thanks to an internship program that I've been in, but in this economy you shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch. On the other hand, universities are also raising tuition and cutting back on incoming class sizes, so a good grad school isn't guaranteed either. Consider the pros and cons of each, though:

The advantages of working are substantial - you get an income, real work experience (different from classroom experience to be sure), networking for future jobs, and corporate seniority (useful for promotions, or for resume building for later jobs).

However, most people don't get to really experiment and push themselves the way they want to in the workplace - to do that, you either need to be in research (meaning you already have a graduate degree), highly placed within a successful company (you're not, I take it), or an entrepreneur with cash to burn (see above comment). Work is mostly doing stuff that other people want you to do. You may (hopefully do) enjoy the work, and you will probably learn from it, but you have fairly limited control over your own path within any given company.

Grad school allows you to explore the topics that interest you most. Take a few advanced courses, then do some research. Become an authority in a specific topic, or know enough to tackle anything in a given subfield. As for money, you won't earn much while in school that doesn't go into student expenses, but you can probably support living and tuition by working as a TA and/or getting a research stipend. After you graduate you can get a substantially better salary.

Don't forget internships, either. They carry many of the benefits of starting a career (CSE internships pay better than many full-time jobs, if you haven't learned that already), while still letting you carry on your studies and/or research the rest of the year. They can be hard to get in a down economy, but if you can, grad school plus internships give the best of both worlds. You'll have knowledge, experience, money, career options, high employability, and the chance to do whatever you really want.

Go for masters

[saigon_from_europe]

If you can afford it, go for masters.

Let's compare yourself to someone of your age and education but without a masters degree.

In two years, he is in great advantage (you have 0 experience, he has 2yrs). Two years later, he is still in the advantage (masters + 2yrs against 4 years). At this moment he is, unlike you, a candidate for getting a promotion etc.

But in a moment when you get ~4 yrs of experience, i.e. where you have to compare his 6yrs against your 4yrs of experience, his advantage is not that big. Four years later, 8yrs vs. 10yrs of experience does not make any difference. But your degree will remain an advantage.

Assuming that you'll work in IT for more than 2 years, I would say that your master will be an advantage for longer period that his 2yrs of more experience will be the advantage for him.

And as something possible in CS/IT, you can get some real-life experience during your masters course, which means that in practice you will have 2yrs spent on masters with some experience, and he will get only the experience.

Also, on a plus side for you, the larger company becomes, it takes more into account formal training. So if one day you want to work in some large system, it's better to have higher qualifications. In this moment you may not want that, but do you know where would you like to work in, say, 15-20 years?

Re:Go for masters

[Tony Hoyle]

Actually that's not true. In 4 years who will care what you studied? Education becomes increasingly irrelevant once employers have hard data about how good you actually are at the job. It helps for the first year, tops. Beyond that its only use is if it makes you better at the job, and that's far from guaranteed.

Re:Go for masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't say that this agrees with my experience. 21 years out from school, not only do prospective employers care about the degree(s) and the school, but they also care about the GPA in some cases.

If you are only training for a job, go to a vo-tech school. If you are planning to live for more than a few years, do your best to have a career (or several), and train to analyze and solve problems in a rigorous and organized manner.

In my experience, the Master's degree is worth the effort.

Do both

[Coeurderoy]

Try for a research masters degree on some topic you find interesting, and try to find a way to monetize it.
Create a small company that you own if necessary (take care of not being carried away bankrupcy is no fun :-))
And either do some consulting,or try to monetize whatever you have developped.
So on your CV you'll have the Master AND the Experience...

At any rate, having the master's degree will make your life much easier, particularly when you'll be a "senior"...
(it might seem counter intuitive that a diploma that you've done or not 25 or 30 years ago has any impact on your career, but in reality not having it means needing twice the "support" from insiders...)
unless you're absolutely sure that you'll be running your own company when you're 45..50..
(and actually no you cannot be sure....)

Worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's worth it.

Two years of work experience may sound great now, but in reality, they won't ultimately make much of a difference - once you've worked for five or ten years, it'll be entirely irrelevant already. A degree, on the other hand, will stay with you forever.

Also, consider that work experience is something you can always get (and in fact *will* without even having to do anything for it, other than being employed); a degree is something you won't be able to get as easily in the end once you're not at your university anymore.

That being said, I also agree with what others have said and suggest not stopping at your Master's and getting a Ph.D. instead (well, in addition).

Both - in whatever order and whatever pace works.

[Shag]

Right now, you've presumably got non-zero earning potential. Earning some money might feel good. Getting rid of some student loans might feel good.

Sooner or later, maybe you'll start spotting jobs that you could get if, on top of your natural talent, you had more education. When you start thinking that, go get more education.

I spent about 15 years in IT (went from $18K to $100K+) and never needed more education than I had. If I had more education, I suppose I might have been pushed into management... but I don't really like managing, I like doing.

5 years ago, took my IT skills and went into scientific and policy fields where I got to apply my IT skills, but got to learn a bunch of entirely new stuff, and do completely different work that made my old cubicle-dwelling buddies extremely jealous. Of course, it did put my pay back down to $18K... and I realized that everyone around me had a PhD or JD or something similar! So after racking up some experience, I'm now taking grad classes... and in these fields, just being in grad school makes people take my job applications a lot more seriously.

MSc got me a lot of interviews and maximum cash

[Anonymous Coward]

I did an MSc directly after my BSc. I believe it was time well spent. When it came to looking for a job I found that the MSc got me several interviews, it also meant being offered the maximum salary for a new graduate.

Get your master's degree now!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

I was in the same situation in 2001. I could have gone straight to work (many and some fun possibilities) but instead I chose to do two more years. It was the best choice I've ever made. Do not hesitate. If you have energy: do it. You'll cover a wider spectrum. Besides, you can ALWAYS make up for the "lost" working experience. Overall, there are more advantages than drawbacks. In addition, you get to put many "I-know-everything" people back on track by just pulling rank. :-)

Captain America

Communication Classes and an MBA

[DeadlyEmbrace]

The job market is tough right now. This makes it attractive to stay in school. Rather than getting a MS in Computer Science you should consider getting an MBA and focusing on your communication skills (writing and presentation). I have a BS and an MS in Computer Science but have observed those with a BS in Computer Science and an MBA. I believe increased communication skills and general business knowledge will open more business areas to you and once there will help you to excel.

Do what you want yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Academics live in their own little world, where GPAs and degrees and such rule the pecking order. They are very focused upon the idea that success equals education. That is not true. Education can be part of success, but there are far more factors than that, and almost all of them are about you. Being eager to learn new stuff and being easy to be around triumphs a double Ph.D. and being an obnoxious arse.

Also, I've never been asked about my grades nor my education (B.S. in Software Engineering btw) but very often about experience and getting hired seems more about buzzwords than you ever wish it was.

So some of your more obvious options are:

1. Get a masters because you think that it is fun and rewarding. That you are asking the questions you are makes me feel like you might not think that it is the most funnest evah.

2. Jump into the work market. Could be tough, prepare for it well.

3. Start your own business. This honestly seems easier than getting a job these days. The internet and stuff like the Apple app store has made it easier than ever to sell software to others, and there is always consulting. Will give good experience, might give good money, will have a degree of freedom to it.

4. Do the masters and start your own company, combine the to if possible. More work, but might be a better combo.

5. Bum out, quit school, go on welfare, play computer and video games like crazy and get all the loot. Play the lottery, hope for epic failure to avoid you. Code perl once a month for a few minutes to give yourself the illusion that you still go it.

6. Surprise me!

Re:Do what you want yourself

[damburger]

How do you think a person gets a PhD without being eager to learn?

Your criticisms of education are exaggerated. Yes, education establishments can be focused on grades and qualifications - but commercial establishments are more focused on the bottom line and on office politics. The latter, IMHO, is worse.

The advantage of education is that, without the emphasis on moment-to-moment productivity allows a person more freedom and creativity in their activities. The flip-side of this is, of course, that absent any extrinsic motivation its just as easy to have no activity at all outside the requirements of your course.

As for your points - (1) and (2) are both valid, (3) I wouldn't consider in an environment where established, successful business run by experience people are struggling. (4) might be better if economic conditions pick up. (5) forms a false dichotomy - not being in professional, full time work does not necessarily make you a loser, although it does make you, yourself entirely responsible for making sure you are not a loser.

Re:Do what you want yourself

[kninja]

I agree with this guy - the first really objective comment that wasn't just some salary cost benefit analysis.

I would add to point 1, if there are classes and subjects in your field which you want to learn about, but you are about to graduate -> go directly to grad school, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

If you are tired of school, get a job and see how you like it - see what interests you in the real world, and use that knowledge to decided if/what to study in graduate school.

3+4 are also great advice.

I did 1, 4, and briefly 5, before going back to 3 again.

Go for it!

[tvieira79]

I've started my Masters this month. I'm doing Masters in Software Engineer at University of Oxford, UK. I have 3.5 years experience and this Masters is a part-time, so, I can do both. If you have this option, better. You can add years to your experience and at the same time update your educational background. But, the industry, in my point of view, needs more computer scientists and software engineers. The bigger educational background you have, better. Just one thing: go for the subject you most like, otherwise you are going to face a very tough post-graduation course.

It's about flexibility

[kubajz]

I think it depends on how flexible you want your carreer prospects to be.

If you want to go deep and become an expert in your chosen area, I would (perhaps surprisingly) recommend getting a job now. Best learning is learning by doing.

If you want to keep your options open, being able to switch not only jobs but perhaps even specializations or industries, I would say go for your Master's. It will train your thinking rather than your skills.

This from someone who has done a BC in electrical engineering, Master's in IT (signal processing) Ph.D. in IT (object databases), then worked as a security and financial auditor, now teaches financial management, and is certified in all these fields :o)

Work experience is important

[smorar]

The question you should have asked, is not "Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"
Indeed, at that point in time, the two years of experience will put you in a better place than your masters.

What you should have asked was: "Is a masters in computer engineering + 2 years experience better than 4 years of experience?"
After masters + work experience will be more valuable, however, the masters cannot be a replacement for work experience.

Then again, I am doing my PhD in chemical engineering, so what do i know about a masters in computer engineering and your employability in the IT world...

fallback mode

[reemax]

It might be a good idea to take masters if u are final year student right now. Why? In order to sit out the economical crisis. But it mostly goes for those doing Economics or Finance. However, it might be good idea not to take it right now if u want to start or already have your own business. If you are in the UK. Try to change/choose your course so that you would have joint Masters degree with BSc this way you will spend only one year doing Masters and you will be applicable for the government student loan which you are not if you do Masters separately. Then try getting a year internship between last bachelors year and first masters. Internship say at IBM will look so much better on your cv then plain masters degree. Finally, if you have a research field you are interested in go for the masters and then maybe phd. If you invent smth new that might serve a good head start for your own successful business. But if not that into research find a job for now. Seek that your employer would pay for your masters and if he does: well it couldn't be better to be a freshman once again =] ps. masters do not have to be in your field (you could argue), try to broaden your perspective. Study economics or a language. In Computer Science there are so few girls, not in arts tho,no.....

Thomas

[Anonymous Coward]

It also depends of the college you're going to. If the school is good and reputable, then a Masters might be a good idea as it will increase your salary. If you can't get into a good college to do it, it's probably better to get a year or two work experience, and then apply in a good college.

Go for it

[jonathanroscoe]

I'm on my third year of a Masters course. The third year is a year out in industry. So I've spent the last 11 months as programmer for an ISP. It's been great experience and good to take a break from university. You should see if you can do a masters with a year in industry. Personally, 5 years is a long time to stay in one place. What I've found is that a few of the students on the same course have now dropped out of the masters to a shorter course as they have been offered permanent jobs by their industrial year employers. I like studying but don't want to end up an academic, so I chose the masters to give me a couple of extra years. Now, my reason for sticking with the masters is the economic climate, many of my friends in computer science and other fields are finding it difficult to get work at present. Good luck to you, whatever you choose.

Re:Go for it

[MichaelSmith]

I'm on my third year of a Masters course. The third year is a year out in industry. So I've spent the last 11 months as programmer for an ISP.

I hope you are using your extra qualifications in that role. I work for a defence company. People with specialised qualifications get sent off to work on radar tracking algorithms or similar. Working at an ISP doesn't sound very challenging to me. You should look at working for Google, Raytheon, Boeing, Thales, EADS, Lockheed Martin, etc. Or possibly a bank though I wouldn't know much about that. Not my field.

None of the Above

[LaskoVortex]

How old are you? Think about this: you are going to die. You can go to grad school when you are in your 30's (apostrophe nazis can fuck themselves). If you are still in your 20's, make a dream list if you don't get into grad school. Here was mine at 23:

• Jet Fighter Pilot
• Struggling Pro Soccer Player in Europe
• Struggling Folk Singer in Europe

Now pick one and do it. In a few years when you can't take the painful vagabond existence or high pressure of your dream career, go to grad school. After I made my list, you know what happened? I got into grad school. Worst thing that could have happened to me.

Re:None of the Above

[AmaranthineNight]

You could have just turned down grad school or deferred your enrollment to do those other things you wanted. Not everyone has dreams that are incompatible with going to grad school. If you did, why did you go?

Re:None of the Above

[LaskoVortex]

If you did, why did you go?

Grad school was first choice for a career. The others didn't seem like long term practical careers. In hindsight, you still have time to launch a more practical career when you are 30.

This is why I submitted the advice here. I'm not complaining about my fate. "Why" is an easy question to ask after the fact but a difficult one to answer. As a young person with only doubt on the horizon, one's perspective is limited and practicality weighs heavily on one's decisions.

And what then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Finished my masters a few moths ago. Then I had to sit down and ask myself why, why was it worth all that effort and what would it enable me to do. And all I got was emptiness. Then I realized I had been sold the useless widget that you see on tv and that once bought you don't touch it again but occasionally look back at it and wonder why, why did you waste your time and money with it.

The higher education marketing got me too :(

Re:Depeds on what your goals are. I'd overall say

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Now here's the choice, you can get a professional masters (online and/or course work only). This pretty much shuts the door to going on academically.

I can only speak for my personal experience, but working on my online professional masters helped me get into the PhD program at the same school. I came from a 4-year school that ranked waaay down there near the bottom, and I'm not sure that I would have been accepted without the higher-ranked graduate school having a year of decent graduate classwork at their institution to include in the evaluation.

I will however agree that a "real" (i.e., you wrote a thesis) masters is probably going to be viewed by technical recruiters as a lot more solid qualification than a professional masters.

Current Job Market is not that Bad.

[Brownstar]

There's already some great advice about why or why not to get your Master degree now.

However, the people that are suggesting that this is a poor market to get your first job are wrong.

First off, hiring is not down that much (and in many instances it is up)

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/107040/Bright-Spot-in-Downturn-New-Hiring-Is-Robust

And I speak from experience, I finished school in early 2002, during the previous IT downturn.

You might not get the same starting wage as someone did 1 or 2 years ago, and you might need to relocate, but when the market takes off again, you will be much better positioned to get a better job (either in an area you care about more, or something just for more money), if you have 2 or 3 years of experience, vs. having a Masters Degree.

My suggestion is, regardless of whether you decide to get a Master's degree, get an internship or a Co-op over the summer. Especially if you decide not to get your Masters. Even that 1 summer of experience will help to differentiate yourself from any other graduates that have no experience.

As one about to sumbit a masters: Do a PhD instead

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who is a few weeks off submitting a Masters thesis, my advice is: do a PhD.

The writing up process for a Masters is as arduous as a PhD, though the actual research is easier because it doesn't have the "original contribution" requirement. For a little extra grief though, the PhD will open more doors into the world of research.

From a career perspective it's probably a bad move. It's the worst of both worlds. It labels you as a "theoretical" person or a "student", whom people with limited vision will not want to employ. As the same time, doors to serious research positions stay closed as PhDs specify more PhDs when writing job descriptions for research.

Do it because you love it, not because of what it will do to your career.

I started with a "change the world" view, but it eventually became a "get the #%^$ thing submitted" view. A minority of higher degrees are about changing the world. Most are about jumping through the necessary hoops to say "I'm a researcher".

This is written from an Australian perspective.

Internship

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

First question - are you just in it for the money or in it because you like the technology and money is secondary?

If the former, get your masters, without a love for the tech you will not be an over-achiever, at least not long-term. So a masters degree will help bolster average performance and keep your earning power up better than a regular clock-puncher without a masters.

However, if you are the later, skip the extra degree and gets your hands dirty. If you haven't done so already you need to be interning as part of your bachelors program. The most learning you will ever do is in the real world, so the more real-world experience you get under your belt the more you will be able to excel.

Incidentally, excelling at the job (and keeping your eyes open for opportunities) is the best way to make good money. It is, however, not usually an option for most clock-punchers.

Credit crunch means go for the masters

[Madman]

I think at this moment in time you should go for the masters unless you have a good position waiting for you after graduation. The job market is not looking great right now but should be looking good in a year or two when you'd be getting out, and a masters degree will set you apart from the crowd who didn't get one and spent 2 years doing their level best trying to get people to super-size their meals while desperately hoping for their first real job.

When I graduated with my masters the tech boom was in full swing and if I'd gotten my masters I would have missed it, so back then I would have said get straight into the job market. Now in a market contraction it makes sense to go for more qualifications.

I personally think that for the majority of tech jobs a masters degree is irrelevant as the vast majority of what you will do you will learn on the job. You can't learn realistic project management in school, or how to deal with management. These things you only learn in the trenches.

Job hunting

[Gible]

would you rather try and find a job now? or in two years when the market may have bounced back a bit and you're better qualified (and could have some part-time experience on the side).

MSC for research, work for money

[mindcorrosive]

As someone who was in your shoes two years ago, let me tell you this:

You need MSc basically only if you're going to continue in the academia, or if you're serious about research (more or less the same thing). I went that road, and am at the beginning of a research gig that will last for some time right after I finish the thesis this month.

If you think that MSc will somehow magically open the doors for you, don't. This is more valid for CompSci than Engineering, for example. The knowledge required in the field changes so much through the years, that one or two more will probably leave you with a stale skill set. Not so for research, especially if you're working in a specialized cutting-edge area (I'm at AI).

But if you're a generic Java/C#/C++ guy, with no specialized knowledge or interests, you're the same as a million other people looking for a job that (probably) have more experience than you in the field. You need something to differentiate in this case, and that is either a more specialized skillset, or a more diverse skillset (e.g. MBA).

Good luck, on any occasion.

Depends, but probably Not

[kschendel]

I'd say it depends on what you see yourself doing. If you want to be a deep thought thinker in an R&D department, or if you want to stay at least semi academic, get the Masters.

If you want to be a programmer, engineer, or whatever you want to call it, I'd say get the experience. I've been directly involved in any number of hiring decisions over the last 20 years, and I can't recall a single instance where the existence of a masters degree made the slightest difference in our decision.

Re:As one about to sumbit a masters: Do a PhD inst

[Anonymous Coward]

And I will add: if you aren't interested in research, you are wasting your time doing a PhD. Unless they actually specify "PhD" in the job ad, employers will actively discriminate against a PhD on the basis of "over qualification" or "being in an ivory tower".

If starting a business, PhD can impress some people you talk to. The time spent on a PhD would probably be better invested in building the business though.

Immigration Benefits...

[Kr3m3Puff]

While it might not be a consideration now, your formal education can have a big bearing on your future immigration opportunities. For example the UK now requires anyone applying for a High Skilled Visa to have an equivilant of a UK Master's degree, irrespective of your field.

Re:Immigration Benefits...

[PleaseFearMe]

The way I see it, high skilled visas are a way for a country to get better educated people to come into their country and do useful work for them. If I were anyone without an advanced degree, then I would not apply for a high skilled visa but for just an ordinary visa.

Re:Immigration Benefits...

[gilbert644]

In 50 years the planet will have a population of 9 billion and an open door immigration policy is completely unsustainable? Why not pick the best?

Re:Immigration Benefits...

[gilbert644]

bleh, unnecessary question marks are confusing?

For some it can be a cons

[harduser]

I lost a great opportunity to work in a huge data centre because of my Master course. Even though I'm just part-time student they said the course could affect my availability for shift work and on-call duties, so they didn't accept my application. Anyway my experience with hunting for jobs shows that what matters for employers is the employment history rather than education. But I'm still saying it's always good to have both.

Go for a Ph.D.

[planetmcd]

Go for a Ph.D. In most US programs, Ph.D. programs are subsidized and Masters programs are not. If you go for a Ph.D., you get a masters for free along the way. At that point you have a free masters and can then move on.

Food for Thought

[Gregory Arenius]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124181970915002009.html

This article in the Wall Street Journal talks about the long term salary affects of graduating in a recession. If you're sure you can find work in your field then you should be okay. If not you might want to consider getting that degree, at least according to the article.

Cheers,
Greg

Yes, do it.

[damburger]

For a start, education is worth more than your final salary. Your time at university should be more about expanding your horizons and using the spare time that you will not have in the working world to pursue your own projects. Savour it whilst you can.

Secondly, if you hadn't noticed, it isn't a great time for anybody to be graduating with anything right now. Staying in university longer will, hopefully, save you from having to look for a job in the middle of a crisis where companies are having to cut costs.

Thirdly, the idea that you must find work as soon as you graduate often leads people into jobs they dislike, jobs they feel trapped in, and jobs that are considerably below what they are capable of. This will, I speak from personal experience, make you very unhappy.

Forget the work ethic bullshit you've had thrust upon you. The purpose of life is to enjoy yourself and to fulfill your potential in the way you choose. Work should not be a means to this, but a part of it. Poverty is preferable to drudgery.

Don't look for money. Look for a vocation that really appeals to you, rather than just a job, and let the money sort itself out later. Don't think about getting a mortgage and a pile of expensive crap as soon as you graduate it because you'll end up making yourself little more than an indentured servant.

Re:Yes, do it.

[Faerunner]

While it's great that you insist there's no need to find work as soon as you graduate, I've found that it's rather the opposite. If you owe any money at all to the school or lenders as a result of getting your education, in 6 months after you graduate you're going to be writing them checks. Poverty is preferable to homelessness. Drudgery is preferable to both. Poverty is harder to dig yourself out of, and will greatly impact your ability to travel for work, relocate, buy a house or car (try even renting an apartment if you've been late on 3 months' bills because you took the time to make sure you were happy about your job prospects instead of sucking it up and finding something to get paid for), and it'll make you look like a real dick when you have to tell your friends you can't go out drinking because you're broke, while they're working. Getting a job you like and want is a lifelong process. Paying the bills happens monthly.

OP, if the economy still hasn't picked up in 2 years (keep your fingers crossed that it will!), where will you be except deeper in debt with another certification and no work experience? Since we can't predict the future, prepare for the possibility that it'll get worse. Go for work while you study, even if it's not obviously related to your field. Any experience is better than none, if only to show employers that you're willing to work and can hold a job. If you can, put something into savings in case a job doesn't magically appear when you graduate. Internships are awesome for this reason.

Now, if you get a full ride, you're problem-free! If not, check into scholarships and assistantships. There are a lot out there that the universities won't advertise, but sometimes they will list them on the department's web pages. And if you want one, apply early!

Re:Yes, do it.

[damburger]

It does depend on your circumstances (parental support, level of state benefits in your country, willingness and availability to do casual, part time work) but it is better for your happiness to reduce your consumption than to increase your income. Dead end jobs are traps, and if you start to take credit (such as a mortgage) you may never escape.

Deferring your job satisfaction rarely works because your shit job demoralizes you, takes you down an experience path which does only leads into higher paying jobs of the same time. If you loathe web design, then 5 years of experience in web design is not going to be a great deal of use to you, especially when you've got used to the wages of someone with 5 years of experience.

If your friends don't like you if you aren't spending cash, get some new friends. Material wealth must always be secondary to liking what you do, otherwise you well end up middle aged, trapped and depressed.

Re:Yes, do it.

[Faerunner]

It should be everyone's goal to be happy in life, but liking what you do can take other forms than work. Some people will always end up stuck in certain jobs because of their circumstances. The key to happiness then is taking as much pride as possible in what you're doing within the company, and focusing on your own outside time as the time to pursue your real happiness. For me, that includes planting a garden and growing my own food. I already love my job but you'd be amazed how your life satisfaction can increase when you're doing something you love outside your job. Even those who love their jobs (teachers, medical personnel, moms) can get burned out if they don't have time outside their careers to explore other interests.

If you decide to change careers, work experience is work experience and a year in one field is as long as a year in another. I've turned several years of what appears to be unrelated experience in half a dozen fields into an ideal interview answer because every job contains some elements of human interaction and some elements of pride in one's work, improving the company, etc that you can easily carry over to your next position. It's a generalized skill set, and it may not net you the same job that 5 years of experience in your field will, but played right you can do a lot better than entry-level, and more power to you if you spent your spare time on your preferred career goals (ie, training on your own time) even while working that dead-end job.

The people who are happy in life don't always have the greatest jobs, but they know how to find satisfaction outside their jobs as well as inside and they know how to make changes instead of sitting there demoralized because they're still working at McDonald's.

Time space bending error!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a year left in school. ... Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?

Marty! Accelerate to exactly 88 mph!

It's the blue or red pill, so decide

[Anonymous Coward]

Academia, then go for PHd.

Workin' for the man (even if you plan to be the man) then...

C E R T I F I C A T I O N S !

.02

[KeX3]

As a close-to-30 completely uneducated (effective high-school dropout) developer, stick in there and get your masters, easily.
Like people have pointed out, when HR compares a masters with 2 years of work experience, the masters will win.

And if I were in your position, I'd wager that the economic funk we're in is a little less depressing in 2 years. If you're right, two years well spent. If it goes downhill, well, then you'd be pretty much fucked anyway (last in, first out).

Masters and whatnot stop being relevant after a couple of years (it's not like anyone even bothers to ask for my grades anymore, having worked for over 10 years whereof 8 "in the business"), but it'll give you a good head start when you're compared to people like me ;)

Bad economy == masters, but not in the US

[cfriedt]

Given the current state of the economy, any job you apply for will likely also see applications from professionals who have had 5 years of experience or more. In other words, you have slim chances.

In light of that, my suggestion is to do a master's degree but not in the US. Tuition in the US (and Canada for that matter) is far beyond what its actually worth. Go go a European country where tuition is subsidized. The "worst" part is that you have to learn a new language (unless it's an international program in english), and that's actually a very marketable skill.

On the other hand, if the economy were better, I would say that you should get a job; good work experience is exponentially more valuable than academic "training".

However, when you do begin your career and start looking for employment, and I can't stress this point more - do not apply to a lower-level position in hopes that you will one-day get a promotion. Internal promotions require at least twice the time and money of retraining and rehiring that an external hire requires. In short, don't take the first job that comes your way. Hold out for one that seems challenging and dually rewarding.

If you really want to gain some experience, port Linux / Android to a new device while you're doing your master's degree. You don't necessarily need to be employed to gain some practical, modern, and highly valuable experience. There's a whole world of open-design out there waiting for you - take OpenMoko for example. Why not redesign their next handset and make some major improvements?

Re:Bad economy == masters, but not in the US

[cfriedt]

The down-side to this, is that lots of students are doing the same thing (higher education) as a result of the economy. Therefore, in a couple of years, there will likely be a flood of people looking for the same job you are, with the same credentials.

Do the master's but keep in mind, that you will need to improve your professional experience on your own, e.g. with open-source / open-hardware design.

If you feel really brave, then come up with a marketable business concept and look for venture capital through government grants. It's a big risk, but can really pay off if you have the right mind for it.

Re:Bad economy == masters, but not in the US

[Tony Hoyle]

do not apply to a lower-level position in hopes that you will one-day get a promotion.

Sorry, you're consigning him to a life of unemployment if he takes that advice.

If you have no experience the low level positions are the *only* thing you have a hope in hell of getting. Nobody is going to take on someone without experience at a skilled job.

You're also dead wrong about internal promotion. It's *way* cheaper and quicker to promote and employ another code monkey at the bottom than pay for someone new... you've got someone who doesn't know your codebase/team coming in.. it's going to take them 6 months to be productive and in the mean time you're losing money. Promote someone and they'll be doing the job within days. Also external hires often want more money - because that's the reason they left their last place, so you're at a disadvantage from the start. I've been in a few places over the years and have *never* heard of one that would hire externally if they had a choice in the matter.

Re:Bad economy == masters, but not in the US

[cfriedt]

Forgive me for disagreeing with you, which I'm doing based on past experience.

I think you misinterpreted the message. If I'm applying to, say, CompanyX as a test engineer, even if I work there for 10 years, it's very unlikely that I would then be accepted for a job as a VLSI engineer. It's a completely different department, and a completely different team.

Then they would need to go through the hiring process for two people and retrain two people, as opposed to hiring and training 1 person. Many large, especially unionized, companies are legally required to go through an interviewing process for each position, whether they already have someone in mind, are offering the job to an internal person, or external.

Your argument is potentially valid for a promotion within the same team and / or department. That's usually the difference between being a junior engineer and an experienced or senior engineer. I would call that a raise, not necessarily a promotion.

Essentially, I'm saying that it's a bad idea to apply to the test engineering department if one wanted to design silicon.

Incidentally, for a job in VLSI, a master's degree is usually a minimum requirement.

Get it

[ciryon]

" Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"

No, but you should get a masters degree anyway since it'll make it much easier to get your first job and it's actually "proof" of knowledge much more so than work experience. That said, you'll probably learn a whole lot more during your first two years working than the entire time studying.

You will still be faced with the chicken and egg p

[jforman]

Speaking from experience here as a recent grad (BS in Math/CS in 2000, MS in Telecom in 2004), I was faced with that decision for a while, and seeing it in hindsight there is one thing you need to realize. The Masters is only going to get you into the door a little bit easier. It might get you to the top of the pile for interviews, but it by no means makes you a shoe in.

After that, you must deal with the fact that it's hard finding an IT company who wants to hire someone as 'green' as a new grad. Use your masters to get contacts in the industry, work your tail off to get a great summer internship if your program is two years long. I was lucky enough to go full time for two years, and wrote freelance for a well-known computer security magazine. Bolster your resume.

Use the masters to bolster your chances of convincing future employers that you are more than just a naive college grad.

Depends...

[Greyfox]

In this economy it might not be a bad idea to hunker down and avoid the job market for another few years, but student loan debt is like herpes. Not even bankruptcy will make it go away. If you're already in the hole by multiple tens of thousands of dollars and you're going to rack up another few tens of thousands of dollars to get that degree, I'd seriously consider the implications of the burden you'll be under when you get out.

If you have little or no debt load and will be able to pay for the degree as you go, I'd say absolutely go for it. By the time you get out the economy should be good and healthy again and most of the companies that dabbled in outsourcing will have been burned in their projects. Delaying entry into the job market by a couple years right now would be a decent strategic move.

Re:Work Experience... ok now-bad for future

[Anonymous Coward]

Master degree may not counts at the entry level positions (you will be treated just as BS for entry level positions)... but it does count when you get you a senior position in 20+ years. Seniors with master degrees definitely earn more than seniors without master degree, and I'm telling it from the personal experience (i have master).

Re:Work Experience then Masters

[TaoPhoenix]

However, it's not always an Either-Or forever.

I began college in the early '90's, and after decling Pro Science, set about for my career.

I was just luck enough to have this feeling that computing in 1994 really wasn't mature enough to waste a full degree in, so I got an accounting degree with some PHB icing.

Wall Street adventures in the news aside, accounting is still accounting. But now were I the CS type, a CS masters in this environment is "still the paper", but far fresher and full of much more useful topics. I think What To Do Post Microsoft will be the topic of the decade.

Meanwhile, I have some grade B work experience, but a hulluva lot more real context. My current position is a hybrid I invented for myself, that no straight degree will ever describe in a course catalog.

I cocked up!

[muzicman]

Back in 1998 instead of listening to my lectures at college I decided that I wanted to go to University and get a CS degree. This was a foolish move as I could have made mega money on the Y2K crisis. I ended up leaving uni just as the bottom was falling out of the UK IT market. What I should have done is got the work experience and then gone to uni when the IT market fell after 2000. That said you are currently in the reverse of the situation I found myself in. If you can do both you are on a winner. If I could only choose one I would go for the Masters. That said I am not you. What is right for one person isn't right for another. Good luck what ever you choose.

You can work for the rest of your life!

[indre1]

Go for Masters, have fun and enjoy your days as a student. You can work for the rest of your life (I'm not saying it'll be boring, but it surely won't be the same).

If you find yourself low on salary, you can always take some smaller projects to work on, get a part-time job or take a break from studying and go to work.

Re:Experience paper

[Tony Hoyle]

That's a good way of putting it... Starting with zero experience in the current climate is going to be *hard*, so a Masters is a good way to pass the time until things pick up. Either way, you'll start at the bottom (when we're looking for candidates we grade according to experience - not qualifications - and someone with zero experience is only going to get a code monkey job no matter how many bits of paper they have).

My view

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

I don't know much about the educational system in the US as I live in Europe. But from my experience (I've had both day classes and evening classes) it's a lot harder to get a degree outside the normal 9 to 5 classes and it takes a whole lot longer as well.

Going back to school after several years of working isn't that easy either. When you leave school, your life changes and unless you have someone willing and able to support you for several very costly years, it's not going to happen.

IMO get the masters, chances are it's the only chance you'll get to get them. To give you an idea: I'm working to get a bachlor degree through evening classes and taking exames for a number of classes in college. In total, combined with a full time job, a mariage and a child, I'll have spend about a decade on this. Compare that to the 3 years in day classes it normaly takes.
On the other hand, now I've got several years of experience, which builds self confidence and teaches some things you won't learn in school.

great opportunities

[eignerchris]

i just started a cs masters program and am loving it. the general trend i've seen is that most people intersperse internships into their program to break the monotony and get some great experience. so you shouldn't worry about work experience. personally, i've met a ton of smart people who love to hack away at cool projects and met some great career contacts through internships. my general strategy when it comes to the future is to do what makes you happy and make 'option maximizing' decisions. a masters in computer will only better your understand of computers, programming, networking, compilers, etc. and if you ever got the itch to teach, you could absolutely do that as well. i've had several professors start in industry and migrate to academia after 20 years. nobody in industry is going to dog you for getting an advanced degree in a field you really enjoy. i'd totally recommend it.

Do both

[Anonymous Coward]

Work for a couple of years first and then do your masters. You will be more mature and also take full advantage of the master's once you've experienced first hand the mediocre approach most people have to their jobs. Having seen this, you'll appreciate why the practices taught in your master's are really worth it.

I did it the other way around (undergrad->masters->work). I wish I hadn't.

Richer Vein of Knowledge than a Master's

[CaptainOfSpray]

Read the Daily What-the-Frel http://thedailywtf.com/ This will teach you more in a day's reading about the real world of computing than you will learn in a year on a Master's. And you will enjoy it or be horrified, either way you'll have more fun thn writing a Master's thesis.

Hide in School for two years

[Ralph Spoilsport]

The economy completely sucks. Jobs are few. Hopefully things will look better in a few years, and your MS will be a nice addition to your resume.

Also: the MS is good for another reason: contacts you keep for a Long Time. Like in Undergrad, the contacts you make in MS degree will help you later in life.

Good luck!

rs

Re: 0 College / B. / MS

[TaoPhoenix]

I do think I disagree here.

The pay curves from 0 to Bachelors are far steeper than Bachelors to Masters. While "many" can, that kind of success does take an odd brand of insight to make it work. For those who don't have those flawless instincts, it's all too easy to miss the window a few times, then end up serving cheese subs.

At least a degree lets you usually finagle some entry level stuff, just to avoid gaping black holes on your resume. Now multiblended careers are standard, so "just working usefully" is good enough even if it's not a straight line up a field.

Work Experience

[nomad-9]

"Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"

In my experience, employers prefer years of actual experience.

Having a masters degree says nothing about how well you can withstand the pressure of the real world, and how well you can work with others, two things that most IT companies value highly.

What's the job, and what's the masters?

[Spasemunki]

I know a lot of people who have done both. It depends a great deal on 1) what the masters program is, and 2) what kind of work you can get right now.

If the masters program consists of taking a few more classes, doing some problem sets, and a few small programming projects, skip it. Employers will (rightfully) lump you in along with every other undergrad or BS + MS who finished simply by following a pre-planned track.

If, on the other hand, you're actually doing independent work- working on some large, independent/group projects, doing real research, maybe getting your name on a paper or two and building some decent prototype/POC systems, then the masters may give you a real advantage, because you'll be able to talk about real experience working on projects, but still have a wider theoretical base than a lot of people fresh out of school. A really applied, hands on MS program gives you the best of both worlds, in a way. At some large companies, a MS is a gateway to higher-level work as an architect or other high-level designer/developer- whether by policy or by happenstance, most of the people you compete with for those positions will have post-grad degrees.

What kind of work can you get? Keep in mind that the hiring market is very competitive right now; you may see yourself dumped into a support/low grade technical positions as a fresh grad that doesn't provide great experience. If you can spend two years actually writing real code that gets used in a production system, the experience might be more valuable. If you're going to be doing tech support or fire-and-forget CGI forms for two years, the real world work might be much less useful to your ultimate career than doing the MS.

I came out with a BS and started working, but I had a degree from a well-reputed school and good internship experience. A lot of the guys I knew in my office had bachelors degrees from local schools, and they started out doing support and incidental minor scripting. My starting job was as an engineer, on the other hand. The lesson for me was that a solid education (which the MS can be a big part of) can leapfrog you past some of the duller entry-level busy work.

My advice would be:
1) Talk to people who have done the MS program. What did they do? Are there opportunities to do real research or project work that will set you apart from other people who took a ton of classes?
2) Apply for a few jobs and see what you can get. If you can get a job at a good company that will take an interest in your career development (usually means a larger company- small companies are very friendly, but often lack the resources to really develop their people) and will pay you well, that might be convincing for you. If you're going to be punching a clock doing work that doesn't advance your career (there are plenty of people with BS's in Software Engineering and Computer Science doing what is essentially tech support that could easily be done by someone with an associates degree or a self-study with an A+ cert), the MS will probably offer you better options.
3) Make a real assessment of what you're like as a student. Getting the most out of a MS program will require that you are able to manager yourself and challenge yourself, and take on big commitments without someone standing over you forcing you to do it. If that sounds like you, great. On the other hand, if you sat in the back of every classes and did fine while avoiding notice and not getting involved in much (frankly, I was this type of student!), a MS might end up just being a few more lines on your transcript without much to contribute.

One thing most of these folks are overlooking...

[Anonymous Coward]

What is your specialty--hardware or software?

If software, I would agree that work experience is far more significant, if you have a choice between one or the other.

If hardware, it could be quite different, as either a Masters or PhD may be the entre into the most meaningful career opportunities...again, depending upon your primary interests. Even there, though, work experience of some sort is extremely valuable. However, a PhD candidate can often do projects with industry that would qualify as valid experience--and don't forget that professors are often well plugged into the industrial world as well and can help with placement for the most promising grad students.

Experience!

[churnd]

As others have said, it depends on what you want to do. If you just want a job as a systems administrator, get a few certifications and lots of experience. If you want to be a software developer, experience is a must. Start doing cheap freelance stuff. Take a look at the job market out there, and look at the requirements for the job you want. The majority of them only require a 4 year degree, but ~5 years of EXPERIENCE. Getting experience is the tough part. You'll probably have to find a job on the lower level than what your post-graduation expectations were, and put your time in. Even with a masters, this is more than likely.

Re:Both - in whatever order and whatever pace work

[Anonymous Coward]

Some places of employment offer full tuition coverage while you're working. The downside is that you'll only be able to pursue your Masters degree on a part-time basis.

Personally, though, I'm looking to exit the work force after 3 years to pursue a research masters/PhD. My recommendation is that if you find an interesting job and are willing to do a part-time masters, it may be a way to get the best of both worlds.

You're asking the wrong question.

[jevring]

If you *like* being at university, stay and do the master. If you don't particularly like it, go looking for a job. Too many people see the master (or university as a hole) only as a means to an end. A painful experience you have to get through until you get a job. My view is different. I believe that going to university should be a rewarding experience, and not just as some diploma on the wall and potentially a higher salary. The act of going to university should be fun, otherwise you have nothing there to do. You can't possibly expect to benefit fully from something you hate doing, if you're doing it every day for several years.

I have a master's degree. I got it in a different country than where I got my bachelors degree. I thought doing my M.Sc. was well worth the time and effort I spend. I honestly don't care if it makes me more attractive in the workplace or not, but I suspect that it can't really make me less attractive. Compared to the two years of working experience, that depends entirely on where you work. 2 years working experience can be several times more rewarding and interesting than 2 years of master study, but it *can* also be utter crap if you do it at the wrong company, or if they are not taking care of you properly.

In the end, since neither path can *guarantee* that you get what you want, I would recommend that you choose the path that seems like the most fun.

Depends

[unlametheweak]

If you are into status symbols then get a Masters Degree. If you are into education then home schooling is more efficient (assuming you have the discipline) than a traditional classroom university education and saves you money and opportunity costs.

In terms of HR hiring departments (I would think) a Masters Degree gives you a slight edge over people who don't have one, but the intelligent recruiters would be more interested in knowing what you can do, and not what degrees you have earned.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[0100010001010011]

Get real work experience first, then get your masters. Not intern/co-op stuff, but some real world work experience.

I'm have a BSME, concentration in controls. If I went to masters program straight out of by BS, I wouldn't have known what I didn't know nor what I wanted to learn.

I've worked for 2.5 years so far at a company and love all the work that I do. But there's definitely a 'glass ceiling' of knowledge that I want to get past. I'm looking at going back in 2010 for my masters.

At the same time, 95% of the people I work with are perfectly content with their position and the work they do. You maybe too. Get out in the real world, see what you know and what you don't and then make the decision after a year or two in the real world. After 2 years you may come to the conclusion that 2 years in the work force taught you everything you wanted to know about CO and you'll have saved yourself 2 years of your life.

Advice given to my daughter

[Anonymous Coward]

a) Don't go to grad school unless someone is paying you to be there. Medical and law school are exceptions. If the school doesn't find you a job, they don't really want you.

b) Don't think you will be able to go back later. Yes, it does happen, but "life" gets in the way.

c) You will never be in a better position to live cheaply than you are now. If you start working, your lifestyle will expand to use the income.

d) Image you are 90 years old. When you look back on your life is "having a Masters" on the list of best things you did? Most men probably have "wife, children, grandchildren" on that list. Very few people have some job ... except doctors, I'd guess.

e) Don't go to grad school at the same institution you do your undergrad at.

In short, you'll never be in a better place to go for a Masters, but it needs to be your decision. My daughter was working on her PhD at CalTech then just walked away a few years ago. No reason was provided. She had always excelled in everything - sports, academics, friends, life.

Each of us need to find our own way and be responsible for our decisions.

Masters / PhD or BUST

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the Masters / PhD will be more valuable later in your career. Experience will open doors at low levels for you. The Masters / PhD will open doors in academic and high management levels for you, more specifically rule, the more you see the "public" in your job, the more valuable the Masters and PhD become (company bragging rights, and proving you are an "expert"). If you are thinking of a work, management and retire/teach, get the Masters now and the PhD later, if required to teach.

IMHO...No.

[BlitzSonik]

My answer to the OP question is no...a Master's is not better than 2 years in the field...especially at the beginning of his career. Companies tend to want to know you can do the job for which you are applying...not whether or not you can take classes, pass tests, or even write a thesis. Can you deliver that all important webpage/application in on time and under budget withh all the bells and whistles the end users demand? Can you provide the business with a solutio to an existing problem without costing them an arm and a leg? If after years in the field you want management, then yes a Master's will do you well then. If I were the hiring manager, I would hire an experienced professional with an Associates and real job experience over a newbie with a graduate degree and no experience...all other things equal.

Part time while working

[budgemook]

Why not find a good part time or distance learning Masters? Then you can get a job after leaving college, work at that a while to make sure you like it and then study a Masters part time. You may even be able to get your company to pay for it. That's what I'm doing and I think that if you do it this way, your company would be more inclined to give you a promotion upon completion of the Masters as they would be looking for a return on their investment.

What job are you aiming for?

[jrumney]

There is no one answer to this question. The field of software engineering is broad. For some jobs, perhaps most, work experience is more valuable for sure. But in certain fields, a masters is a must. Government research labs and the financial industry will only consider you for some positions if you have a masters or even PhD, but if that is the sort of job you're aiming for, you'd be better with a maths or perhaps physics or economics masters than a masters in computer science/engineering.

Location

[Luc1fel]

I guess that might also depend on where you live. I'm from Croatia, I've got my Bachelor's degree and right now I'm going for the Master's degree (pretty much, I've got no other options, I'm the first generation studying according to Bologna process and I figure it's better safe than sorry).

In a few conversations with potential employers (Ericsson for example), most of them said they would rather employ someone with a Master's then with Bachelor's degree.

Then, there is also the self-motivation and probably self-reward in a higher degree.

Get a job, then go back.

[mdarksbane]

There is no way I would have appreciated a master's degree, or even learned as much from it, had I done it right after of college compared to after 2-3 years of work experience.

And you can save up to pay for your tuition that way, too.

Job experience teaches you to be confident in your code, to work with standards and within an office with actual structure to how they code. But you learn very specific technologies. I went into a job writing a 3d Rendering engine after specializing in computer graphics in college - I've learned so much more about actually being a programmer by being in this job, but I learned way more about computer graphics in college. You narrow yourself a lot in what actual textbook type knowledge you gain, but you develop much more as an adult and as a computer science professional by being out of school.

Let's put it this way - you work on a bunch of interesting project in college, but every one of them was completed in less than a semester. You could be working on the same project for years in a job. The scale of everything is tremendously different, and you grow so much by learning that you can handle that scale and work within it.

After you've had that growth - sure go back for your master's if you liked the learning and want to improve yourself, and you'll appreciate it so much more from seeing what the "real world" is like.

First things first

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm currently an undergrad in computer engineering and have been thinking about getting my masters. I have a year left in school. Most of my professors seem to think that getting a masters is a great idea, but I wanted to hear from people out in the working world. Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"

In the workforce experience trumps just about everything. Having a Bachelor's degree is great, and it's an important tool to get your foot in the door, but it's what you do once you get through the door that really will make the difference. Your professional reputation and work experience will take you farther than any piece of paper will.

That being said, having a Master's degree will no doubt help you long term, but I think that it's of dubious usefulness without some work experience behind it. If you roll straight out of a Bachelor's program into a Master's program and then into the workforce, people are going to look at you like you're all theory and no practice.

My advice would be to find a decent job (easier said than done these days) and develop work experience and professional contacts. Learn how things are actually done and truly understand the challenges of your field. Then after a year or two of working full time, start working on a Master's program. You can do it part time while working, and while that will take a little longer you'll finish your Master's program with more years of experience under your belt too. On top of that, you might be able to get your employer to cover some of the cost of your degree.

In summary, a B.S. and an M.S. are great tools, but if you have no experience then people aren't going to look at you much differently than if you only has a B.S. A B.S. and an M.S. with significant work experience makes you much more valuable.

Simple question...

[Kindaian]

Do you have a job now?

No? go for a master... make yourself more educated...

Yes? go for a master... make yourself more educated...

Maybe... There is no maybe...

Depends on the company and the programme

[saisuman]

1. If the work you do allows you to dabble in a few areas and enables you to get a lot of experience in a couple of them, then your work experience may be just as valuable or more valuable than master's studies done for the same period. 2. If the work you do is basically mundane, run-of-the-mill stuff (say maintaining a very stable project with limited scope for engineering work and/or development) , it certainly won't give you the depth of knowledge that you could possibly be getting if you go back to school. 3. Someone else has also said this a while back - a master's degree is sometimes a pre-requisite for some jobs and certainly helps if you ever think of migrating to a different country for work.

Masters

[Foske]

Here in Europe (and more specifically the Netherlands), people who didn't do their Masters are regularly considered lazy guys since we have come from a system where you always did your Master, and now you "drop out early" if you don't.

Also you can get a BSc from a school which is definitely not an University, which basically pollutes that title.

Re:Masters

[Foske]

Uhm any Bachelor title that is, not only BSc

You need a masters

[elnyka]

It won't guarantee you are a good developer, but it will increase your chances of getting a better salary.

I've been in the IT sector for over 14 years, and it's the education at the master's level that really helped me in my career. But then again, I never sat idle when I was in school - I got my first developing job at a large insurance company when I got my AA degree, and I continued studying till I got my B.S. and then I went for my masters.

I've worked from financial companies to, currently, with a large contractor for the defense sector, from pure development to IT operations, and, overwhelmingly, every almost single person I've worked with THAT IS REALLY GOOD AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING either had a masters or at least had pursued a good amount of graduate studies.

Graduate studies, that is, good graduate studies teach you how to research and troubleshoot things - in particular if you focus your grad studies to practical research in software engineer, distributed systems, embedded systems, enterprise computing, or biometrics/robotics.

It won't help you for making web apps, but one doesn't need a B.S for that either.

Some of the best programmers I've known didn't even had a degree in computer science, and OTH, some of the worst I've known where Ph.D. candidates.

So it depends on the individual. If you are the type of student who thinkers with stuff, who isn't afraid of working from the command line, or doing C or Assembly, who knows how to work with pointers and who had a really good grasp of algorithms, theory of automata and software engineer, then by all means, go for the masters and then get a job.

Depending on where you are, having a masters will open more doors than just a BS. But that depends on the location.

On the other hand,if you suck as a programmer while being a student, and by this I mean that you suck not because of inexperience, but because you suck at a very fundamental level, and all you do is point-and-click programming, then you'll suck whether you have a BS or a MS.

My suggestion is to go for it immediately after you get your B.S. degree. Use that opportunity to contact potential companies that might hire you after graduation. See if they can give you an internship during summers or work on a master thesis related to some industry-funded project or topic.

For example: when I was in grad school, I was working on a project that dealt with security on distributed systems for medical records funded by a large hospital network.

When used wisely, a grad education will open far more doors than just a B.S. degree.

Ultimate Escape!

[hitech69]

Of course you want to go to grad school! Isn't it the ultimate escape from reality?

From someone who did the part time masters thing

[oneiros27]

I don't know that I'd say 'most', but there are quite a few that do.

My recommendation would be to look at the potential employer's education benefits packages ... some go by dollar amount per year, some by number of classes per semester. Almost all have a clause that say you have to repay any benefit if you break employment within 1 or 2 years after finishing the class, but some universities take the reverse approach that you have to put time in before you're eligible. Some pay before the class, others pay after you've passed the class. (I was under three different benefits packages while working on my degree ... and the company got sold, so I don't know what my current situation is)

Once you're on the job for a while, if you like the place, you can look at what would actually be of use to the company (not entirely altruistic -- it makes you more valuable) and you find interesting -- sometimes, it's cross training in a different field. My master's is in information science, not computer science. (of course, my undergrad isn't computer science either, so I'm still debating on a comp.sci. degree, but I have a comp.sci PhD/part time faculty to bounce questions off of.)

And *always* talk to HR before starting classes -- I had one employer tell me that I'd get reimbursed if I got an A or B, and only had to get special permission if I took more than two classes per semester. What they didn't tell me was that I had to get 'regular' permissions before taking ANY class -- so the report cards come in, I turn them in, and they ask me why I didn't file the pre-class paperwork to justify that the course was related to what my job. And of course, by then, I'm already into the second semester, so had to eat the cost of two classes.

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I'll tell you the answer, because I've done it myself: he should get the degree, THEN pursue basket weaving. IT isn't the great job market it used to be (unless you're willing to move to India), and you'd be surprised how much money and how satisfying a career you can get in manual jobs.

I myself have a 4 year degree in computer science, and now work as a gunsmith. All my pals who stayed working in computing are looking for work, I don't. And on the plus side, if gunsmithing tanks, I can always go back to computing.

Interviews and jobs

[Fnagaton]

As someone who interviews candidates for software engineer positions then what I find more valuable than a masters is finding someone with the demonstrated ability to do the job, enthusiasm and love of the subject. This is because, in my experience, a graduate who only took the course to earn more in the industry is not really going to understand the subject and not really going to perform as well as someone who is a "hobby programmer" who has discovered how to research their own solutions due to loving the subject. So if you really love the subject then opt for work experience, i.e. do the work you love. If you want to learn how to teach other people then a masters. You'll learn far more from three months work experience than you ever will during a two year masters course. The most important thing is to figure out what you want or love, is it the programming or is it the thought of being able to earn tons of cash? Because I know I could and have programmed for free because I love the subject. Which is what sets me apart from those who don't love the subject and turn up for interviews thinking they can get a highly paid job just because they passed an exam.

Lots of bad advice

[salesgeek]

One thing I regret is listening to the advice of so many people. If you feel like you will learn more, and be able to do more of value for others with a Masters Degree, then get one. Even more important, make sure that you will enjoy earning the degree.

Money is not the most important thing in life.

Re:Lots of bad advice

[AutopsyReport]

Money is not the most important thing in life.

True. Sleeping on top of a pile of money surrounded by beautiful ladies is.

Re:Lots of bad advice

[Anonymous Coward]

surrounded by beautiful ladies???? unless you are aiming at MBA you wont have beautiful ladies!
Don't you guys read the title of this page... NEWS FOR NERDS! :)

Re:Experience paper

[stasike]

well, 10 years later, you have the same candidates.
Candidate A has 10 years experience
Candidate B has 8 yesrs experience PLUS a Masters degree

Wo which one is it now?

This has been asked recently...

[khendron]

...so I will post the same answer: For me it was useless.

I did my Masters (in Engineering, not Comp Sci, but my example might still be relevant) and discovered that, although I enjoyed the program, as far as my career was concerned a Masters degree was worse than useless.

After I graduated I was hired at a starting salary. My Masters' experience counted for nothing. I was therefore making less money and had less seniority than my former Bachelor's classmates, and was essentially doing the same work. When I was looking for a job, some employers were openly suspicious of my intentions, saying that since I had a Masters degree I would probably quit after a couple of years and go seek a Phd (so why hire me?).

Would I do it all again? YES! Because I really enjoyed doing my Masters and was very very interested in the research that I did. That is the most important thing. If you don't love the subject, you will hate doing your Masters.

I know many people who have done Masters degrees, and the only ones who benefited career-wise were those who continued on to their Phd and those who did MBAs.

Who's paying?

[Kupfernigk]

The most valuable M degrees are those somebody else is paying for.

If you have to fund it yourself, how do you know anybody wants the result?

If someone will fund you to do it, a third party outside the University thinks it is a good idea and worth something to them.

It's like MBAs: if you have to pay for it yourself, you're probably not MBA material. If your company wants you to do it, somebody thinks you are.

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[magarity]

Do I need a degree to be a Tape Monkey?
 
Absolutely! And for only $29.95 I'll be happy to send you one.

How about you do what you feel like doing?

[jmv]

Regardless of whether you choose to do a masters or start working right away, it's not likely to penalize your career. So how about you do what you feel like doing? It's really important to feel comfortable in what you're doing. If you don't like your masters, it'll be useless, but if you really like it, then I'm sure it'll be very valuable. My only advice if you want to do a masters is don't do a "course masters", do a research masters.

Study AND get work experience

[wytten]

You can get work experience while you study, and probably get your tuition paid to boot. It's called a Research Assistant position. Don't assume that Computer Science departments are the only place to look for one. Other departments like Astronomy, Chemistry and the biological sciences all have computing needs.

Not Mutually Exclusive

[syntap]

#1 priority is get the job. Once there, you can think about part-time / night school to get your Master's.

I was in the workforce for three or four years before I started my Master's program. I found it a much more rewarding effort because I had real-life experience to apply to what I was learning. I had lessons-learned to bring to classes, and if your classes are made up of people who are working (nighttime classes will be like that) then you are more likely to get better "war stories" and come away with good info and considerations of things you had never thought of.

And at the end you'll have a Master's plus work experience... an advanced degree plus a portfolio of success (or at least experience) on real projects.

Some say certifications are the route... somehow I think a potential employer is going to be more impressed by my Master's plus years of experience and examples of work over the cert-of-the-year I could have gotten back then that is useless now. Certs have their place, but in my view (and career experience) there is much to gain by hitting the workforce for a couple of years and then starting the Master's program.

CE != IT, you moron!

[woolio]

IT may or may not be expendable. However, there is a big difference between Computer Engineering and IT....

Computer Engineers actually understand (and often use!) basic Calculus... But those in IT can tell you how actually to deploy security policies across a network. Other than being two professions centered around computing, they have little in common.

Equating the two is like equating a professional chef to someone who flips burgers. Yes, they both deal with food, but there are major differences...

Re:CE != IT, you moron!

[berenixium]

Any staff related to computing are the first to get the boot, engineers or web developers, hardware techs, and cable guys. The sales staff and management always get a stay of execution before the tech staff.

Re:CE != IT, you moron!

[jellomizer]

Bad Analogy. That analogy will end up with you getting punched in the face.

Computer Science and Computer Engineering are Very different topics. (and their quality varies based on what school you go to)

Computer Science is actually Computational Science; the study on how things get calculated. Its focus is less on Calculus and more on Discrete Mathematics. Although it is considered a technical degree because to prove and practice the concepts we use computer programming languages. However you could in theory earn a Computer Science degree without having ever touched a computer. It is a Science not Engineering.

Computer Engineering, is more focused on the actual computer as a device, how it works in a rather detailed level. There is less focus on Discrete Math of which is a process (in basic terms) of validating the truthfulness of a Mathematic/Logical function, and more on Calculus which is great for optimization.

My experience Engineers normally write really crappy code. While it works it doesn't have the same clean style that a Computer Scientist will make. But for a better analogy on how the topic is different it would the be the difference between a chef and a baker. Where both can probable do each others job, however one would do some thing better then others in differnt areas.

Re:CE != IT, you moron!

[0xdeadbeef]

That analogy will end up with you getting punched in the face.

NERD RAGE!

Don't fuck with the IT guy! He'll strangle you with cat-5! He'll stab you with a heat sink! He'll give you purple nurples with a hex screwdriver!

Luckily, you can smell him in time to make your getaway.

Mixed Feelings on the Subject

[SiO2]

I'm a firm believer in staying in school as long as possible. It can't hurt.

That being said, any degree or certification will only teach you how things work in the lab. That's not real world. Everything always works wonderfully in the lab. However, once you dive into some corporate abortion of a network, it's sink or swim. That's real world.

I have a Master's in English. I've been working in IT in one form or another for just over twenty years, most recently as the network/server administrator at a university. So, I guess my point is that it doesn't matter what kind of degree you have. The experience of actually working in the field goes a long way.

Best of luck in whichever path you choose.

SiO2

Easy answer...

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy answer...

The job market sucks right now... So, do the MS as fast as possible (1.5 years or less if you work hard this summer)! ... and the reality of the situation is that the MS is just an extension of the BS...

Just don't flounder .... finish it quickly!

what do you expect them to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course your professors think grad school is a great idea. That's what they do for a living.

I've been there and done that. Got my degree, went out in industry for five years, then went back for a graduate degree.

What I found is that I knew more about my field after five years working in it than the professors I had trying to teach me. And grad school ain't no place for people who want to argue with, or correct the misconceptions of a professor. Because as a grad student, you are their slave. Literally. So instead of a Ph.D, I opted out with a Master's.

And that Master's has been nearly worthless. No employers cared. Didn't net me a dollar more, or another gram of respect. What earns you the money and the respect is real world results.

Something else to consider. For some fields of study like English, the highest and best use of the degree is university professor. That's the top of the line. Is it for engineering? No, not even close. So... who are the professors of engineering? Why are they there and not out in industry making twice the money generating real results? What exactly do you think you can learn from these people? I'll tell you want they are good at -- writing grant proposals and running roughshod over grad students who often know as much or more than they do.

Think carefully before you decide to get that degree.

Re:Experience paper

[GordonCopestake]

It's a fair comment, but not many managers can see 10 years ahead when sitting in the interview room. They want someone to fill the vacancy NOW, and there will be no shortage of applicants.

GIVE UP!

[sundarvenkata]

Sir, I am not going to repeat the famous Slashdot opinion that you must follow your passions or any such crap. The only thing I can say to you is Give up!Get a business degree no matter how much ever you loathe doing it! There are an army of programmers/engineers in the third world willing to replace you with just a tenth of your salary. Do you *really* want to be in a profession where your job is constantly threatened by these people?

depends on your long-term goals

[wireloose]

I've been in the tech business for 30 years. I can tell you this much - you're obviously going to get a lot of conflicting discussion here, but keep in mind that's because each of the respondents has different job goals.

Generally the master's pays off in the long run. It can get you an additional $20k/year initial salary, but it's more common to see around $5-10k. So you may or may not see an ROI in the first couple of years out of school, and that's a goal you'll have to consider. But you will see an ROI if all other things are equal, and it will make a bigger difference in your future, everything else being equal.

More importantly, it opens doors. Many jobs at the supervisory level require or highly prefer a post-grad degree. This does vary by region, so doubtless you'll get arguments to this. Public sector, such as government jobs (NASA, state and federal jobs, military civil service, and public sector colleges, for example) typically require master's degrees for higher level positions. Notice I said "typically." Some require Ph.D.s.

So the question is more one of what do you want to do with your life? If you'd like to be in management some day, you better your chances with higher degree. It's much easier to get the degree while you're still in the college routine, and it's much harder to fit it in later in life. I got mine right after my bachelor's and my wife got hers 20 years afterwards, even though we were in college together. It took me 1.5 years to complete, and it took her 5 years. Evening and weekend classes, much tougher when you have a job and kids. Plus, read back articles in /. and you will see that your brain develops and learns faster while you're still young.

Finally, getting the advanced degree will teach you things you won't learn quickly in the career field. I've had lots of young grads come to me with wonderful new things they had developed, which were really nothing new. How new can round-robin process scheduling be? I have to hand them a book and a reading assignment to show them that they're 40 years behind the times.

Re:depends on your long-term goals

[kd5zex]

Stupid mod box...

Our business rule... get the MBA

[KiWiKiD]

My advice, is much like the advice I've heard all over the place when it comes to getting a Masters. After getting your undergrad, go to work, and head to school part time to work on getting your MBA.

In my field we have so many Computer Engineers and Scientists it's ridiculous, and every year we hire some more from college. Everyone is looking to get a foot in the door, but most don't realize what it takes to get a leg up. Understanding how businesses work by getting the MBA will make you invaluable to the company and will open up leadership positions to you that were once closed off. Now when I say leadership, I'm not talking about low level management or even mid level management, but positions in which you might actually create change within the company.

Many of those same people who get the MBA, continue on to getting the PhD in Computer Science or Computer Engineering to solidify their hold within their field of expertise. Continue to strive for excellence in productivity, never forget education, and you will go far. It may not all be about the money, but it will make many of your other decisions in life easier to make when you're well off financially.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're in the top 5-10% of your class, you should go for the masters, however you're not going to like the reason why.

WSJ.com had an article on how the class of 2009 will be behind other earners for the next 15 years. Basically, it's like this: others in your field have been laid off and are more qualified than you so you'll have to settle for something less than you "deserve". Having settled, you won't land in get a great career advancing job. Career wise, you'll be continually 5 years behind where you "should" have been had you graduated in normal times. Unfortunately, according to WSJ, studies show that it will take you 15 years to catch up.

The article is about the Class of 2009, but with unemployment expected to be high again next year, you're in the same boat.

I'd say get a Master's and avoid the job market for 3 years if you can.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124181970915002009.html#mod=rss_Page_One

You'll never be this free again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Aside from the work now vs educate now, there's another consideration. You'll never have this much freedon to choose again in your life. Every year out of school, you'll take on more and more obligations that limit your choices.

Personally, I believe that grad school if best served after a few years in the work force, but many people never go back to grad school because the obligations they take on (house, family, job...) won't let them.

Get it

[CapitalOrange]

Getting two years of experience right out of school is a great thing, but its easier said than done. A lot of companies would prefer the experience to start, but will look for someone else if you don't have an advanced degree or the experience. Its a tough job market out there and I found that my Master's degree opened up a ton of doors that were otherwise closed. I got numerous job offers because of my degree and your salary will be slightly higher. If you can get it out of the way early, either part time or full time, do it. Master's are the undergrad degree of our parents generation. Everyone has an undergrad degree and to a large part, there now relatively worthless for setting you apart from the field.

you're an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

so the extra education would probably be lost on you!

if you weren't an idiot, you'd know for your first few years (i.e. when you don't have experience) the experience is worth more, and after that the masters would be worth more. you'd also know that now isn't the best time to be looking for a good job so it is a good time to stay in school.

most "real" jobs allow you an opportunity to continue your education and get the masters. if you can find a "real" job in today's environment this is a good path to take.

gsquared

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not work and get your master's part time. Usually you can get your company to pay for it, and you get the best of both worlds. You should also be getting experience now (internships, apprenticeships, etc.) Experience is vital and it gives you the opportunity to make important contacts when you are looking for your full time job.

Define "better"

[Anonymous Coward]

By "better", do you mean how will you learn the most; or do you mean what will the administrative types (guess which path they took) who will pigeon-hole your career respect more?

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[geminidomino]

/o Tape monkey get up, get coffee, tape monkey go to job... o/

People I hire

[LKM]

Lead devs: Master + Experience (not necessarily work experience, doing personal projects or contributing to OS also works).

Monkeys: Work Experience.

Do you want to be a monkey or a leader?

Get an MBA whwre possible

[cheros]

The brutal truth is that you have to pass that first fence: HR.

From my experience, those people tick boxes. They will not look at intelligent things you've done (even when you're many years in the market) - they are just about qualified enough to see if certain keywords appear. Only when you cross that barrier can you expect someone to ask questions about ability and ambition.

This means you have to stand out. An MBA will do that, plus it will build that vital understanding of how a business actually works, which means you'll be able to translate between the two worlds.

Unless, of course, your aim is not to work in industry but in the academic world. In that case progress as suggested :-).

Good luck either way!

Re:Get an MBA whwre possible

[kuzakdo]

I have an undergrad degree in Computer Engineering as well as an MS & MBA. I also have several friends with similar degrees. While it was not true for everyone, being an engineer with an MBA generally boosted starting salary. (some more than others) What has been universally true (amongst my group of friends) is that Engineers with MBAs move up quickly in the Corp world. If your goal is to get into management, the MBA knowledge set is very useful for an engineer, and relatively rare.

Re:Get an MBA whwre possible

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree about getting a 'tick'. But if you're into business side of things, going directly from undergrad to MBA is not the best way to learn about business. With a few years of work experience (at any level), the MBA will be much much more valuable.

No

[Sobrique]

No. In fact I'd go as far as debating the value of a batchelor degree - I have one, and it's mostly irrelevant for 95% of IT. I've done well as a result of having one, because it looks good on my CV, and it set me up for meeting my first employer.
It's also given me an overview of a lot of concepts that my colleagues just 'don't get'.
But for actual hard experience? 2 years in the industry counts way more.

Yes. Yes for PhD too. Schedule is your choice,

[Anonymous Coward]

Get into one of these:

* Clean/sustainable/renewable Energy and transport

* Nuclear energy, quantum physics

* Aerospace - all the "rocket science" stuff

* Consciousness studies -- *very* fulfilling, "The Light Side of the Force"

* Genetics -- be careful not to work for evil pharma companies that use entire populations from third world countries as guinea pigs to test bio-weapons and cures for pandemics - eg SARS, bird flu - they release the virus and then sell the medicine at very high prices.

* Robotics + AI -- you must "guard not go to the Dark Side" (a la "SkunkWorks")

Make sure you don't end up being a zombie academic pedantic professor - so tie up with cool folks like MIT media lab or the Californian masters to make something awesome for common people to use too.

Google, Wolfram Alpha, The internet, the www, email, p2p (torrents), Java, multi-touch, holographic projections, video conferencing, flying cars. Lot of cool stuff to work on and get a PhD in the process too.

However, make sure you don't behave like a selfish evil dick and go work for the US Military Industrial Complex - you may have to give up on Robotics and/or Genetics to avoid that.

If you read Slashdot regularly and work for the US MIC, that's the best example of "conflict of interest" out there.
Work on something that eradicates poverty, hunger disease and social injustice en masse - a la internets.
Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, and obviously open source and free software, and the web itself, all have levelled the playing field between commercial entities and talented individuals. They have brought the evil corp-driven media under check and have given hope and revenue to many peoples and many lands.

That kind of stuff. Really awesome stuff.

There was once a time that a scientist would brag about the fact that he worked on or led the team that made the most powerful machine, the most deadly bomber and the most powerful nuclear weapons system.

Contrast that with the wide array of opportunities to become famous as the guy who helped eradicate disease in Mexico, or the guy who made genome analysis and choice of genes available to the common man. You'll be stuff of legend for centuries, an immortal part of the history of modern science.

In one sentence:
Do something that makes TED invite you to give a talk on your field of expertise.

That's what you should aim for.

A good example explains everything!

[Bost]

Bill Gates did not finish his studies... Linus did!

Re:A good example explains everything!

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't you really wish that Bill *had* stayed in school? We all could have really benefited from Bill learning more about data structures, clean coding, etc. Basically, Bill needed to learn how to define a problem, because you can't solve a problem you can't define. Not understanding this gets you something like... windows.

Bill's a great marketer. World class. But a lousy engineer.

From a Random Hiring Manager

[sonpal]

I've hired 40+ engineers over the last 4 years, and here's my take on a Masters degree.

Best option: combined 5-year Bachelor's + Master's program. You get more technical depth and a Master's on your resume for very little additional money. Your starting pay will be higher, and you can expect to break even in 3 years.

Next best option: 2 year Master's program at a top 5 or top 10 school in your field of interest. If it is not a top ranked program, or you're not changing your field of study (e.g. EE to CS or CS to Robotics) it's not worth the money.

Otherwise, get a job and work on your Masters part-time. Either negotiate an accelerated career track while you're working on it, negotiate a pay increase after you get it, or switch jobs for more pay / more relevance to your new field of study afterward.

-- Hiten

Skyhigh

[Anonymous Coward]

It really depends on the Masters itself - the course content and the experience you gain from it.

It may not be so beneficial if its entirely CS theory work.

My CS Masters was only an extra year added to my 3-year course.
The Masters I took included a module which was also real-work-experience.

This helped no end, it was vital in helping me secure jobs.

Employers want experience, graduates don't really have this aside from "well, on my course we did a project where...".

Everyone does development projects, they're not unique, they do NOT make you stand out.

If you're struggling for real-world corporate experience, pick an Open Source project and get stuck in.
[This is for 'real' employers, if you're going for a Graduate Course or Scheme, it's not so important....but still helpful]

BUT!

My Masters is a .NET Masters, and gave me masses of high-level .NET experience on top of my 3-years experience, that really helped me out in the real world and helped me secure a great salary.

The main thing I got from my Masters was the *experience*, both work experience and development experience.

There was no 'general' CS theory, only .NET theory related to Design and Development.

Hopefully have a Masters will also help me later in life when it comes to pay scales.
*Although in saying that, only 2 years out of Uni and I'm earning two to three times what other graduates earn....

So really it depends on the course!

Masters + Experience = Salary Ownage.

Also if you're in the US and planning to move countries, be aware that a US Masters is not always considered equal to Masters in other countries - just like with degrees.
Sometimes its >, sometimes .

No. Just no.

[Alex Belits]

When I read the "article" (why this is not in "Ask Slashdot" in the first place), and my eyes were rolling at 7200rpm.

The person apparently can't clearly describe the problem. What is his goal? What kind of "experience" is he trying to get? Did he check if there are any jobs available that he is interested in and qualified for? What is the result that his friends use to judge "better" or "worse" of his options, and how does it correspond to his own goals. Last and most puzzling, what are the actual options he believes he has? Is he expecting that he will work for less than two years after getting Master degree? (And then what, die? retire? leave Computer Engineering forever?)

I assume, the actual question was supposed to be "Would the next two years be better spent working on Masters degree or should I jump out of school two years earlier and go looking for a job?" Obviously if the optimal answer for everyone was "Just get a job two years earlier", no one by now would have Masters (or Ph.D) degree, and if such universal answer was "Get a Masters degree", there would be no people with Bachelor degree anywhere outside of school. Therefore there is no point asking without providing some explanation of goals, criteria, or other details that give an idea what would make either choice preferable over the other.

And if a question was asked in such manner I would try to answer it. However faced with a failure to state the problem clearly, and lack of understanding of the basic logic behind it, I can make only one recommendation:

Find a job in something that has nothing to do with engineering and computers.

Do both

[Anonymous Coward]

Find a company that will pay for your masters degree. Some will even give you time off.

Learn What You Want Out of Life First

[ideonexus]

I think this comments hits the nail on the head. You need to know what you want to do with your life before you decide to go for your masters. I know that I thought I knew when I got out of college, but, after going into the workforce, my perspective changed completely.

Where I differ from the above comment is that I don't think it's harder to get back into learning later in life. I went into the work force for 10 years writing software code in a decent environment and discovered I loved the process. Now I'm working on my Masters in Software Engineering, half of which is being paid for by my company, and finding it extremely easy. In weekly discussions, I have all my work experience to contribute to the class, which earns my high marks. When I write papers, I have the additional insights of having been in the trenches, and when I go back to work on Monday morning, I have new ideas to bring to my coworkers. It's been a fantastic experience.

Get in the workforce now, but make sure you get into a good working environment. Don't be afraid to look for work elsewhere if you end up with a company that isn't following an established SDLC. Work experience is important, but make sure you are getting the right kind of work experience, where you are perpetually challenged and advancing in knowledge. Then, after a few years, you can start taking two classes a quarter towards your Masters and earn one in two years.

And then you can start trying to figure out what interests you for a Ph.D. : )

Worth it for the long-term

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably won't make any difference immediately but long term it does put you ahead of others. I'm doing a CS degree part-time while working and the full-timers are mostly foreign students from countries like India. If a Master's degree at a respected uni is something people who want your job are getting, then I think it's a good idea to get one too. It is probably worth choosing your master's carefully and looking for one that is at least part research based. Make sure your research relates to an area you want to work in and you do really, really well at it. It might not get you in ahead of Phd's but it could get you close enough without the years of research.

The Answer is "Yes"

[PopeRatzo]

But in English Lit. Or Music. Or Math.

Re:The Answer is "Yes"

[maroberts]

Or Business Administration.

if you can play in Augusta then do it!

[jdanilso]

Oh, just noticed the rest of the post. I thought you wanted to play golf at the Masters tournament. Silly me.

Well, if you can't play golf, then keep going to school. It puts off the real work to some later day.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[HungryHobo]

This was my plan but with the downturn it's a hell of a lot harder to get a job straight out of college so I'm thinking of going for a masters and hoping that either it will help me get a job or that things will have improved a little by then.

Work and Master's

[Status Quo]

I was lucky enough to get a fellowship from my company when I first graduated. I had some intern/co-op experience and waited a year before getting into a Master's program. Most companies have a reimbursement program for advanced degree course work. You may not have enough experience to really determine which path you should be on for a good future. Best to take a year working and decide if you really want to do what you are already doing even more or if there are changes you want to make in that path.

In my experience

[gondarlinux]

I am pondering the same question lately. I have a B.S. and I have 10+ years experience. My salary is ~10-15% above the norm for a senior level Linux engineer in the area where I work. What I have found is that many companies use a table to calculate what your salary/hourly rate should be. In my case, because I don't have a Master's, I have maybe 10-15% more room for salary increases before I reach a proverbial "cap" on how much I "should" make, according to the table. My options are simple: 1 - get a Master's and "qualify" for higher salary 2 - branch out on my own and go into full-time consulting 3 - accept my fate and wallow in mediocrity I am leaning towards option 2 above, but I have done some casual inquiries with regards to number one recently. Number 3 is out of the question. In conclusion, if I were you, I would get 3-5 years experience and make a plan NOW for going back in that time. Stick to the plan and by the time you have the Master's, you will have some experience to back up what your resume says you know. Hope this helps.

depends

[jkajala]

Benefit/not depends on many things: 1) Your values 2) Your employer 3) Your career path So best to get both, work experience while studying masters, that is. You get also extra points because you look so hard working while doing both same time. Also, as many people have pointed out, you might benefit a great deal from it later. Check out the management ladder in many companies, many times there are not a single guy without masters degree.

Only both with an MSc if you're going for your PhD

[KeithH]

A Masters degree is worthless in industry. A PhD is valuable but primarily only if you are staying in academia. My company pays a miniscule premium to new grads who have masters and it doesn't come close to compensating you for the two years of lost career. Any difference in salary will disappear within a few years anyways. Practical experience is more valuable. So, unless you are aiming for an academic position, go out and get a job.

Re:GIVE UP!

[goeringd]

Own it. Built it. And Sell it. When you succeed hire others to do the pieces you do not enjoy or have time for anymore.

If you are hired to do these things, for others, you can spend the rest of you life working for someone else, Or not. Based on the success of their dream not yours.

Get the Masters.

[zztong]

Get the Masters. You're used to living like a student -- poor and with homework. After you've been working for a few years you'll be used to living with money and free time.

You're still used to taking tests. You still remember the mathematics.

I found it is very hard to go back to school after you have been working. Getting my masters involved working full time and taking classes, so I spent a huge chunk of my free time doing homework and writing a Thesis over a period of years.

The only advantage I had by working first and returning to school was that I had a much better view of why school was important and what I wanted to get out of it. Being an older student also gave me an advantage understanding the perspective of my professors.

As far as your career goes, if you ever plan to get a masters, getting it earlier is better than getting it later.

By the way, when I review resumes, I count a masters degree as two years of experience towards any time we required for the position.

The Bachelor's is the New High School Diploma

[exploder]

Extrapolate from there...

ee

[Anonymous Coward]

The BSEE's I've interviewed earn about $5k less than the MSEE's. I'm pretty sure that MS cost quite a bit more than $5k in both time and tuition but there are certainly people with masters degrees that are willing to work for that.

Use Math!

[Anonymous Coward]

Two years of school costs you 20K AND you miss out on two years of income, totaling 140K (ish). If your masters then gets you 65K instead of 60K, it will take you 28 YEARS to recover that initial cost.

Don't become the perpetual Student

[omb]

As an ex-University teacher, I am not surprised that your academics favor straight-through, do not follow this even if you intend to become an academic. We already spend too many years learning, or rather being taught, and most need to learn to apply what they know.

Unless you are very young or prodigy material take two years out between first and second degrees. Be very careful what you choose to do in your masters, since, unless you are a frustrated pure-mathematician there is a lot of pseudo-mathematical cruft in masters programs.

One advantage of the time out is that, hopefully, you will find out what interests you.

What do you want ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you ant cold hard cash ? Well make your choices in the real world, academia will might even harm you. Now you have an all round foundation. Get some experience and move forward and network with $ as your guide.

You enjoy programming both the real world and academia can give you that.

You want to explore something specific .. academia is the way.

G

Yes and No

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is yes and no. A masters likely wont pay off right away at the lower levels. A masters will really start to pay for itself when you get into the highly specialized jobs and management (if you ever go that direction).

If it were me, I would wait until you've been in the job force for a few years to go back. That way, you know exactly what you want to get a masters in, and also your company may pay for it. Why pay yourself when you can easily find someone else to pay for it.

FYI, my opinion might be a little bias. I am currently working on my second masters degree.

Your Choice

[BobReturns]

I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my take:
Do a Masters if you want to learn more.
Go straight into employment if you want to earn more.
Personally, in 2 years time, i'm going to be doing a Masters or a Ph.D, simply because I love learning - contrast that to a friend who left this year who suggested not even doing honours because all she wanted was a decent paying job.
Different routes suit different people.

Do both.

[Xest]

There's two ways you can achieve this:

1) The lazy method: Look for a job that will fund you and give you time to do your masters
Pros:
- Cheap (although possibly offset by lower pay vs. method 2 below)
- Easy

Cons:
- May have to accept lower wages
- May be tied to company for x number of years
- May be more competition for such jobs
- May be harder to find the job you want that also supports this

2) Fund it yourself in your own time and also work full time still
Pros:
- Having the commitment to do it in your own time will put you ahead of other masters students at CV/interview time
- Not limited as to what jobs you wish to apply for/choose
- Will not be tied to the company you work for

Cons:
- Requires you to be good at managing your time and money

Don't limit yourself to one or the other when you can do both, when you go for interviews mention you're interested in doing your masters and ask if they would be willing to support that if you were successful in getting the job. No company you want to work for would look down on you for asking and showing enthusiasm to continue learning.

But more importantly, ask what masters you want to do and ask if you enjoy learning. You need to do something useful and that you will enjoy else there's no point. It's easy to overlook what qualifications bring you - it's not just a peice of paper, you have the chance to get skills out of them that make you a better employee. If you're doing it for the extra peice of paper it's not going to get you much further in life than if you didn't have it. If however you do something you can learn lots from and you take the time and effort to figure out how to apply and use what you've learnt then it'll get you much further in life. This is why I chose mathematics because as a subject, it has so much scope for you to go and figure out how to apply the techniques for yourself and come up with truly efficient, accurate and innovative solutions to problems that often otherwise are just left unsolved or worked around with tacky, half arsed band-aid fixes.

Good luck

[Anonymous Coward]

I have always thought that experience will actually lead into making a better decision as to what grad degree one should pursue. In this economy, your best bet is to work through the last year of undergrad in your field of study, maybe take another year of work after school is done to make decisions as to in what and where you want to pursue a graduate degree. In any case, a Masters does NOT assure you better pay these days and experience will always be a must for ANY kind of well paid job.

My story

[GF678]

I did Computer Engineering and chose to undertake a Masters. Cost me 8 years of Uni all up (4.5 for the undergrad, 1.5 for working as a research associate, and then 3 for the Masters - in that order obviously).

During my Masters I did extra research associate work, as well as tutoring/marking and other Uni work. During the final year of my Masters I spent time looking for jobs. What did I learn? The industry doesn't appear to give a shit about the extra study, only experience matters. I thought that the Masters would show that I was prepared to forgo the easy path of getting a job in the persuit of hoaning my skills, but as it turns out, the private sector cares more about industry experience. I thought that once prospective employers saw my Masters (or at least Masters in progress at the time), it would be a beacon for attention. Didn't seem to turn out quite like I expected.

Eventually I got a job working in IT (go figure, but at that stage I was pretty happy to get something at least), though I'm FINALLY on my way to working in the defense industry as a proper engineer, once my clearance comes through. Perhaps the Masters itself will make more of an impact in the long term, but it sure as hell didn't help me in the short.

That's my 2c.

Re:My story

[GF678]

Oh and before anyone notices, the Masters and the research associate stuff somewhat overlapped which is why when added, the total time appears like 9 years instead of 8. Call it overloading. :)

Work experience first

[appDingo]

I have been working in IT at multiple levels for 10+ years now, and I just recently finished my M.S. in Software Engineering. I cannot stress how much the work experience assisted me in getting through the program and giving me a better way to relate to some of the course material.

Without a doubt, I have a better understanding of why some of our wins in the workplace were wins, as well as why some of the failures took place as well. For me, the context of the workplace made the degree worth it.

From the payscale side - I am an excellent developer and architect in the area where I work. The MS is a blurb on my resume that will probably never get me another dollar in salary, but I know it does make me better at my job - indirectly, I am sure that I will see a benefit down the road. However, do not expect anyone to break out a checkbook and start asking how many zeros you want in that salary just because you have the degree. Get the work experience first. Make sure you love the field, because it will rarely love you back. Then decide to invest another two years of your life in another degree.

High School will do

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally know a CIO of a major national retail company that only has a High School diploma and a few college classes under his built. He built his entire career on experience and being the best at I.T. He makes over 6 figures and gets bonuses and raises every year. Book smarts aren't bad, but they aren't the end all be all that the academia makes it out to be.

Do you want to specialize in something?

[oudzeeman]

Doing a MS degree can give you a couple years to specialize in a specific area of computer science like graphics, HPC, AI, compilers, etc. This can open doors for you when you get out in to the real world. Its like having a couple years experience, and you can focus on an area, so you aren't stuck looking for entry level jobs.

Well

[smoker2]

Well...

Let the economy be your guide

[Anonymous Coward]

In a bad economy, you might as well proceed with a masters or even a Ph.D. The alternative is to be outgunned by experienced people who will beat you almost 100% of the time.

When the economy is cold, even a Ph.D will get an endless stream of excuses instead of job offers. In such a climate, school is a good option.

When the economy is hot, even a non-grad can get a job and use work experience to propel a career. It worked for me, and I have been doing this for over 20 years. I am probably not the wealthiest Slashdotter, but could easily be in the top ten. Timing is everything. Some very famous people quit college because it was the right time for them to start their careers. Perhaps you have heard of them: Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs.

Don't get me wrong; a BSCS is quite helpful in the computer industry. The MSCS is primarily for college profs working on their Ph.D.

In the world of direct computer work, there is no degree that places you ahead of than those with solid experience and references. Do not confuse the HR screening process with the actual hiring process. HR simply thins out the applicant pool. They generate excuses, not offers. There are ways to bypass HR, but not the hiring manager.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[Erwos]

To provide a counter-argument, my wife has a BS in ME _and_ a MS in ME, which she got in rapid succession. Her work in graduate school is _extremely_ relevant to her current job, which she got shortly after finishing up school. Your generalization that intern/co-op experience isn't good enough is almost hilarious - you don't think employers care that you worked a few summers for a major aerospace or electronics firm? I rather think that they do, because those references can be _very_ helpful in determining the quality of an applicant.

Now, let me provide another bit of advice from personal experience: going back to a good school full-time once you've started working is extremely difficult at best for most people. I'm not saying it's not doable, but if you've got a spouse and possibly kids you need to help support, the option is difficult to exercise. _If you want a graduate degree, best to do it up front._ You may not have the chance later.

Personally, I didn't care to go for an MS in CS (or an MA in Economics), but I did wind up going part-time for an MBA. It is not a ton of fun to back to school at this stage of my life, useful and interesting as it may be.

Do both?

[Ogive17]

Why can't you do both? Graduate and then find a job. Once you've got the job, go back for your Master's degree. If you're with a larger corporation they often have tuition assistance programs (which require you to stay with the company for 2-3 years after getting your degree otherwise you have to pay back the money). You may not have much of a social life, but you're getting real world experience at the same time as furthering your education.

And if you want to get your Master's, don't wait long to do it. The longer you wait, the harder it is to go back.

A suggestion.

[matastas]

For the record: I've got a BSEE myself, working on the MBA.

The thing about master's degrees is they're generally most effective when you have a fair idea about what you want out of them. Are you looking to broaden your expertise? Focus on a particular topic? Change careers altogether? That will help you choose the right program (school, full-time vs. part-time), the right course of study, etc. You'll be much more motivated and enthusiastic, and you'll get more bang for your buck (and it ain't cheap).

Go get a job, earn some money, work a bit (and don't stress too much about the 'harsh economic climate'). You'll learn a lot about what you want and don't want in a career, what type of work makes you happy, what management style and company you prefer, etc. You'll also have some fun building your life and putting some money in the bank (it's quite rewarding).

Look up in about 2-3 years and see what you think of graduate school at that point. See where you really want to go/what you want to do. Most of the engineers I've known get master's degrees to manage groups or move into senior or even principal design positions (though the later leans more towards a PhD, in bigger companies). Some have done it to shift industries (e.g., telecom to biomed). Depends on what you're after, and you won't know that right out of the undergraduate gate.

Try and get it done before marriage and kids/partnering up. As a collegue once told me, three drinks down: 'changing the world is doable after a wife and kids; it's just a helluva lot harder.' You'll have more energy and focus, and it's easier to live a poor grad student's life when there's no one else to be responsible for. If the timing doesn't work out that way, don't despair, just talk it out with the wife/partner.

Above all, just enjoy it. Life's too short to stress it overmuch.

Job for money

[MegaBitzz]

A masters would be nice on the CV and does up your value, but I agree with some of the commenters - long term, experience is worth about as much as a masters, plus, you're gaining work experience and earning money along the way. This is of course assuming that there's a job waiting for you after your course finishes. I'd had a discussion with HR about salary calculations recently and was informed that a 2 year masters course from a reasonably good univ is counted as 1.5 years of work experience for the salary calculation in our organisation. If it's an A rated institution it goes up to 2.5 years + premium (upto 30%) - at least this is what I understood from the conversation :)

do it for the love of it

[metafoo]

A lot of wonderfully super-geeky people get into computer science because it's fascinating, not for the paycheck. The paycheck is an AWESOME byproduct. One reason to do the MS is because you love what you do and want to know more. A good MS is bringing out the heavy duty geek tools. Don't settle for less.

I have 12 years experience and no Masters

[dvs0826]

Get a masters. I have been in the industry as an engineer for 12 years, and last year started going back to school part time for my masters.

It's true that experience is huge. I got my first job with no degree at all, and was making around 75k (in a city with an extremely low cost of living) with only a couple years experience and no degree until I decided to finish it up.

But the thing I learned in all this time is that there are certain jobs that will just never be accessible to you without an advanced degree. And if you're anything like me, the longer you're in the industry the more you'll aspire to these jobs, because they are the ones with the really interesting work, working for major corporations and designing cutting edge things.

Most jobs without an advanced degree will have you designing things that have already been done 1,000 times before, but they just need a slightly customized version for their purposes. Or you'll be thrown into a project that's already been mature for a long time and you're just extending it. These are all great, and it's definitely the way to go right off the bat for experience, but after a while you're really going to want to be working on the cutting edge technologies, working on a project that is the first of its kind, or really novel in some way. For >95% of these projects, you flat out just need an advanced degree. And it's not just because they only recruit people with advanced degrees (although the more elite the job, the more that will be the case), but no matter how much you learn on your own there is a certain aspect that you just lose out on without having learned the material in a formal, academic setting.

I was programming in 4 languages before I even got to my freshman year as undergrad, had started playing with electronics and programming when I was like 10. I still keep up on my learning by reading all the books I can get my hands on. But still, in my first 2 semesters back at University working on my Masters I've learned a TON. I'm only my second semester in and already I know it was an excellent choice, and will really be worthwhile in the end. If not for my job, for myself.

Absolutely

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely go for masters, but consider part-time while you are working. I started masters in my second year at work and it took me about three years. It was pretty hard but it was very beneficial in every way.

I went through the same thing

[CodingHero]

I went through the same thing a couple of years ago right before I graduated. I can't tell you what is best for you, but here is my experience.

I decided to work full time and get my Master's part-time starting the next fall. As a bonus, the company pays for it so long as I get a B or better. I figured it was a pretty good deal: work experience plus an essentially free Master's degree.

I, too, majored in computer engineering as an undergrade and am doing computer engineering for my Master's because I wanted to learn more about it. What I've discovered, though, is that graduate school is nothing like undergrad. You might think "hey I've been at this for four years and it's not so bad, I can do two more." But as a grad student, I have spent most of my classes reading academic papers, usually about some really dry and boring stuff. So far I've had no labs and only one class (a math class) where I actually had to solve problems that didn't consist of parroting back points from a paper or making unsubstantiated guesses about things. Plus, as a part time student at a university's satellite campus, you will really get shafted in terms of course availability.

Finally I have to admit that part of my motivation was to be more competitive a candidate should I decide to switch careers. I can't say if this has or will pay off since I've only had one job though.

Bottom line: as many have said before me, I think you have to really want to learn more to do your Master's. I am still interested in finishing my degree and learning more about computer architecture, but it is nothing like I expected. Work experience is invaluable; I have learned a lot in about 2.5 years on the job that they don't even touch in school.

It depends on

[ashtophoenix]

a few things. - What school are you planning to do your Masters from - Is it a place where you will have a chance to learn something you don't already know - What job opportunities do you have available - Is it at a place like Google? Then take the job - How good do you think you already are in Computer Science (or how much do you think you have learned in your Undergrad) - Do you want to concentrate on something special like linguistics or NLP? Then a Masters in a school good in these disciplines may make sense (if you do a Masters Thesis, even better) Hope this helps.

CBB

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultimately, getting a masters or not depends on what you want to do. While statistically you'll make more money over your career don't do it for the money. People who do it for the money are typically miserable. If you want to be a coder who implements existing concepts then a masters is not necessary. If you want to be more than that then it will be necessary at some point (although not necessarily right away as others have noted).
          While a good employer will pay for your masters degree most universities (especially the decent ones) will pay you to get a masters as well in the form of a stipend. It's not enough to be sippin crystal, but typically around $25k/year with them covering tuition which if you're used to being a student is plenty to live off of.
        If you're looking for a litmus test of should you get a masters here's what I think it is. Did you like assignments in school where you could easily find the answer on the net, or assignments where there either wasnt an answer or it required you to figure it out. If you liked looking the answer up don't get a masters otherwise it might be for you...

PS To acknowledge any existing bias I may have I have a masters....

Master or not?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends.

In the business world I have work individuals with any higher degrees Master, PHDs, etc are not typically liked.

I have worked along a computer guy with more education than most doctors... he was very slow to work with. He took for ever to make a decision as he spent way to much time analyzing each possible choice. He may have had the papers but could not make good business decisions in a timely manner.

I have talked to lots of executives and most hold the same opinion. The highly educated people are good if you are doing research (R&D) type of work or if the client requires it. Other than that they take longer to do the exact same task as someone with a lower education (3or4-year university/Collage degree).

So if you want to be a research or a teacher go get your PHD or Masters. In the computer business development world it will not really help.

Two things to consider

[hardie]

Leaving college is a major change in your life. It is likely all you really know about in any detail and change is a bit scary. I saw this influence several people I knew to stay in school. Think on this and be sure to understand your motivations.

Many of the posts I skimmed were addressing the effect of having a master's degree in a large company. Do you *want* to work in a large company? Small companies are going to be much more interested in who you are than what letters you sport after your name.

Steve

Go For Different Bachelors First

[Crazy14720]

I graduated with bachelors in Computer and Electrical Engineering with a master's in Communications. I found that once I was out looking for a job no one cared about the masters but the second bachelors really seemed to impress. Now that I have been in the industry for more than a couple years, the general consensus is that masters are too specialized and aren't usually worth the money to pay them.

Work Experience with Free Money toward Masters

[evansomd.com]

Wouldn't this be simpler with a poll? I agree with those that said a technical Masters doesn't get you much, fresh out of college. Find a good job, then (after a year or two) get them to pay for your Masters. You will be getting something for nothing (perhaps obligation to work a certain period), and you'll have time to consider exactly which Masters degree you want. I waited 10 years after my BSEE, and I wish I hadn't, but I'm happy that I realized an MSEE is not my preferred career path. I got a MBA, and I think it was the best choice :)

It is all up to you

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you have not told us what it is your really like we cannot give you advice that is appropriate to your likes and needs. With that said here is some general advice which is worth exactly what you have paid for it.

I have made 6 figures for more than half of my career, have no degree at all, am in and have been in management (line and executive) and am a hiring manager. I have also worked for majors like IBM/ATT and minors so small you have never heard of them.

1. I strongly suggest you finish your undergraduate degree. I do not have mine and have had to fight much harder than those around me to get where I am. I will hire someone without a degree but they have to work very hard to prove themselves to me and/or need to have been in the military.

2. Graduate degrees hold no weight in in initial levels of hiring unless you are at a very large company. For example at IBM if you had a graduate degree in anything they would hire you. At my current company it gets you no points. So your mileage will vary according to the job and where you are looking.

3. If you would like to eventually be in management get a graduate level business degree. This will put you on track faster than any other. Passably an International business degree. Or get your law degree pass the bar and you can write your ticket to guaranteed employment starting 20 to 30k over your peers...

4. If you want to stay technical (this will eventually limit your income potential but you can still make a very good living [AKA about 200k right now]) then do the graduate degree in your technical field.

5. The economy is not that great right now so if you can afford to stay in school do. And when the economy picks up people like me will be looking to hire you.

6. No matter what you do get some experience in your field. This will get you your first job faster than anything else you can do. Join a team creating some open source software and write some code in a team environment. And yes even if you have no interest in coding do it.

Most of all have fin and good luck!

Life Satisfaction

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that perhaps you're asking the wrong question. Money counts, you can't pay the bills with fairy floss. But happiness counts for something.

I'm 28 and graduate with my PhD in a week. You can't wipe the smile off my face with a sledge hammer. I wear my bonnet around the house.

Some random advice:

- You should compare industry certification with academic qualification. Knowing ~why~ and how routing algorithms work the way they do counts more than knowing what commands to plug into a device and calling support in India anyway.
- Irrespective of what anyone says APPLY ANYWAY. But for PhD. If you don't get PhD, departments often offer masters. If you apply for masters, you might not get it. Once you're foot is in the door, options are open, you can trade up (or down).
- Apply for scholarships, you can't loose.
- Seek a supervisor for hons/masters/phd early in third year. You'll get a better name by being known earlier. This counts when applicant rankings are done.

Ultimately:
Seven years of stress. Expensive.
Traveling the world to present at conferences. expensive.(Ok, not really a negative).
Slogging it out in a job on the side to pay the bills. expensive.
Spending far too much time away from friends and family (and the girl). expensive.
But.
Having all arriving mail and correspondence land with 'Dr.' in front of your name. Fucking priceless.
Telling your old school teachers you have a PhD and asking your old class mates who thought they were better than you to call you 'doctor' at the 10 year reunion. (You just can't buy this). Yep. Fucking priceless.
Making a meaningful contribution to the advancement of science and society. Fucking priceless.
Long after you're dead and buried, people have upgraded to better software and tossed out your code, you're thesis will still be in the library and papers still on the web. Priceless.



In the end:
Do what you think will make you happy.

Re:Experience paper

[azadrozny]

I am not sure the comment was directed at the manager's log term outlook, but rather the student's. Put differently are you going to be better off in 10 years with a Masters degree, or two extra years of experience?

I say go to work immediately, and work on a Master's part time, then you get the best of both. You also get additional time to find a MS program that fits your career path and interests, which will make the program all the more rewarding.

Start a Business or get a job...

[filesiteguy]

I've been working IT professionally for the past fifteen years. I started as a junior level programmer and moved into customer support (outside) doing systems integration as well as programming and configuration. I went for my master's but - due to the fact that I was flying at least twice a week - never finished.

That was 1998. Now - 11 years later - I don't regret not finishing. I am now a departmental-level manager in charge of some 30 staff members and an $8M budget. When I go to hire people I don't really look at their degree. I want to know what they can do and how well they apply themselves.

What I understand is this - a masters works great in academia. My wife is a professor and a teacher (elementary) so she hears about the degrees all the time. My area finds a degree a great starting place but something that loses value after about five years.

In fact, my boss' boss has no college degree. He got the job not because of his degree (or lack thereof) but because of his skills and what had had done previously.

I actually don't even have a CS degree. I have a degree in German with a minor in PolySci. Does it matter? No. Keep in mind that I graduated college in '92, when PC's were still mostly running DOS and most business computers were running either mainframe, unix or VMS.

CS Degrees are obsolete in a few years

[Anonymous Coward]

What would you be learning to get your Masters degree? How quickly would you learn it? How long would that degree be relevant. I have a B.A. in Computer Science, received when COBOL and Pascal were the languages of choice.

Working for a company there is no time frame or pace on learning something new, it's just ASAP. Or sooner if there is an approved project.
Android 1.5 OS just came out, iPhone 3.0 OS is coming soon, are there courses for these? Even if there is, it would be a semester long course? In a company, taking 2-3 months to learn something new is unacceptably long. 2-3 weeks may even be considered long.
A masters degree that would be worthwhile would be one geared more towards business and/or management of information systems, not technical.

Re:CS Degrees are obsolete in a few years

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. The best money is to be found in technology for which there are no courses yet.

For any job whose key requirement is a degree, candidates are hard pressed to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pool. And the lucky winner has no negotiating leverage because candidates 2 through 10 are viable alternatives.

Don't pay to get a masters. Get paid to get one.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a very wise college english teacher once stress:

"If you're going to get a masters or a Ph D. For the love of God don't pay your own way through it! There are piles of companies willing to pay you to get them!"

He even had a little jingle.

You don't pay them for your masters. They pay you. They pay you! Or else... you don't... go through!

Seriously though. As an engineer with a BA in CS I currently have 10 years of real world experience under my belt and am nearly complete with my 100% paid by employer Masters Degree in CS.

Once I land it I get a manditory raise!

As it stands I am already making more than folks around me that came in the door Masters Degree in hand. While the Masters is nice the real world experience is frankly more valuable to most employers in the near term.

If you're good at what you do and the company is worth their salt. They'll be more than willing to invest in you furthering your education.

Thing of beauty!

Another question for you folks

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a combined 10 years doing everything from it support to systems administration. I just happened to be in the latest rounds of layoffs from Microsoft (dont hate me). My problem is I have no higher education at all. I am kinda stuck on going back and getting my 4 year degree, hopefully in 2.5 years, or trying to find another good paying job in this economy (Raleigh NC area). What do you guys thing?

Sad thing is I registered to go back to school part time a week before the layoffs.

Get the experience now if you can.

[xmason]

5 years of experience and a BA/BS on your resume/CV will be much more valuable than a 30 year old man/woman with 7-8 years of schooling and only a couple of internships or part time jobs.

From what I've seen (11 years experience, BS, working on my MBA part time), a masters will really only help if you're looking to jump into management. I was able to get into a management position by virtue of pursuing my MBA, along with my broad range of experience. Heck, my company is even paying for the MBA.

Later, if you decide you want to get into a management position, you can always go back to school for a MS or MBA.

Yes, HR may do that.

[wonkavader]

But then the manager the guy would have to work for would want to interview the OTHER guy, too.

I've interviewed too many people with a master's and no experience who couldn't write a fizzbuzz. But then, I've interviewed people with a master's AND experience and couldn't write a fizzbuzz.

A master's may not be a badge of disgrace (went back to school because he/she wasn't doing well in the workplace and thought "I know! I need more school!") but it's not a reliable mark of excellence either.

Absolutely true

[wonkavader]

It is an unfortunately reality that changing employers at a reasonable pace is the only way to get yourself on a good raise schedule.

Let the company pay for your masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Get out in the work force, get your experience, and let your company help pay for your masters. Many large companies have a master's while you work program.

Don't be a paper tiger

[pvera]

Finish your degree, work for a while, then do your masters. Why? So you have field experience before you do your masters.

Why is this important? Because as a norm, you are a less attractive candidate if you are over educated for your experience level. You are in reality a paper Tiger, you have two pieces of parchment that say that you have spent a lot of time in school, but the only practical experience that you bring to your new employer is whatever little you could pick up during school.

Your competitors, on the other hand, got their bachelors degree done, then worked for a few years, and finally got their masters done. Most of them got their masters completed while still working.

When I, either screening resumes or running the interviews, compare you to them, what I see is that for basically the same amount of money I can get an employee with the right education and with some relevant experience, instead of a guy with just the education and still needs to be trained on the job.

Education is awesome, get as much as you can get away with it, but pace yourself. Your school probably isn't going anywhere. Your masters program will be there for you whenever you are ready to go back to it.

define "better"

[buddyglass]

You'll get different benefits from each. Right or wrong, having a Master's degree, especially from a top school, will get some people to consider you for positions that might not otherwise have done so. It's like a little asterisk on your resume that says, "This guy is really smart" in a way a B.S. just can't. That benefit will stick with you the rest of your career.

That said, if you're only considering the situation three years from now, i.e. right after you would earn the M.S., then you're probably better off with the two years experience. All else being equal, "two years experience + B.S." probably beats "0 years experience + M.S.". But if you consider the situation 10 years out, the difference between 10 and 12 years experience is much smaller, so the M.S. would probably count for more.

The other thing to consider is whether there are aspects of the M.S. that aren't related to "career" that might motivate you to go that route. Maybe you just enjoy being on campus and being a student? Maybe you just enjoy the material, and would find it intellectually stimulating to explore some advanced topics? Maybe you really like to surf, and two years at UCLA would let you get in a lot of surfing? Etc.

Get an MBA

[Anonymous Coward]

Years ago, I asked the same question and my Manager at the time made a comment to the effect of "Once you've been in the industry for a couple of years nobody is going to care if you a Masters in Computer Science (I was going to to do it part time) Why don't you thinking about widening your experience and get a Masters in Business Administration"

Best thing I ever did, gave me an excellent base of business knowledge that I still apply today as an Enterprise Architect.

How about two Bachelor degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am working on my M.E. degree and my C.E. at a highly rated university. I figure the two degrees allows me to be highly flexible and they fuse together well. A downside is that it takes about a year longer than getting a Masters.

How does this compare to say getting a masters in either one of these degrees?1

Depends..

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on which route you prefer. If you prefer to practice in your field then I would say go for the work experience. If you academics, or want to become a professor go for a Masters (and get an MASc). I'm not sure where you're from, but if you have a professional designation requirement like Canada (where I'm from), and wish to practice sooner rather than later, then I would say get the P.Eng and go for a Masters later on.

Re:Experience paper

[Overzeetop]

If you get that masters in the evenings, then the question is Candidate A with 10 years and a MS, or Candidate B with an MS and 8 years. If the entry requirements are a BS, you may as well start working. Unless, of course, you're independently wealthy already and are just looking to fulfill your personal goals for challenging work and don't really need to worry about a "career" or paying bills short term. In that case, go get the degree.

It can be worthwhile

[ccccc]

In my case, going for a master's let me get a 30% increase in pay over the job I had with an undergraduate degree, and to work in a field more closely aligned with my interests. I consider this to be a good use of two years of my time, but I was also under a sizable scholarship (about 25% of the undergrad degree pay, tuition waived.)

It really depends on how research-oriented your job is going to be. If it has a lot of algorithmic work, then there are probably a lot of former academics in the company who would look highly upon a graduate degree since they have ones themselves.

MS worked for me

[clf8]

Contrary to others, an MS in Computer Engineering directly translated to both a higher job rank and salary over people hired at the exact same time at the same company. Regardless, I got my MS because it was a 5 year BS/MS program, and I felt it would be something additional to help set myself apart from everyone else. Used to be a college degree set you apart, but I didn't feel that was quite the case anymore.

On a more practical note, consider the job market and economy at the moment. If you believe things will improve, then why not hide out in academics and learn more, especially if you think you'll want a MS. You don't want to come back in 5-10 years, have to take the GRE, and change your lifestyle from that nice cushy salaried life to going back to ramen. Plus you could have a family by then further limiting your options.

As for job experience, co-op education and interning are great for that (but you may be a bit late). What you don't want is to graduate and waste a year looking for a job. Or getting a job an getting laid off a year or two later. I, for one, would not want to be entering the job market today.

Go for it

[RogueWarrior65]

Speaking from personal experience, I had neither the grades nor decent research experience from undergrad to garner me a decent job (or any job for that matter). All that changed during the course of my Masters. Employers like graduate degrees and are likely to pay you more and offer perks like covering moving expenses. I emerged in 1990 when the tech job market sucked. In two years time, things should be improving once the dust settles from the obscene corporate taxes and companies need people but are less willing to hire undergrads than they are grads.

Re:Experience paper

[LogarithmicSpiral]

Even fresh out of school with a B.S. you still have no experience. When applying with a B.S. you'll still be competing against other people with experience.

Re: Ph.D.

[durdur]

Ph.D. is a different deal than a Master's. It does carry some clout in the job market. It's not really worth (in $) the time you'll spend getting it but it could give you a wider range of career choices and might get you slotted into a different level than you'd be at with a B.S. (I speak from some experience, having been on the hiring end of an interview hundreds of times).

Masters - A roadblock to your own career.

[Anonymous Coward]

In general, and this is based on over a decade and a half of direct experience as well as those who have worked with him regularly re-validate this, those with Masters are rarely as valuable as those without. Those with PhD's can lead to down right project disaster. The reason being a general default attitude that additional education trumps direct experience, and the idea that a better, more complete idea is invariably the correct solution.
In the product-company space there is likely value, but everywhere else that I've worked it has been a detriment to the team and ultimately to the individual. Certifications are of better value from a career perspective. That's my 2 cents.

Re:Masters - A roadblock to your own career.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a hiring manager who has screened thousands of resumes, my first thought when I see the MSCS is that the candidate wants a premium salary, which is probably beyond the range I can pay. So I look closely at their experience and try to determine if other employers are likely to outbid me. Most of the time, I keep them and they get interviewed (or not) based on their experience.

During interviews, I find many who are positioning themselves for a job other than the one their experience qualifies them for. This is not good. I need someone who will do today's job today and build credibility that makes them more valuable for a higher level job when it becomes available.

And then there is the occasional elitist attitude. If it's not wildly out of control, I can trust the rest of the team to demonstrate superior technical firepower and quickly short circuit the inevitable "I am right because I have a Masters" line. After a while, people realize that everyone's ideas are taken seriously and analyzed for weakness or opportunities for improvement. All of this is based on the merit of the idea, not the diploma on the wall.

potential

[Anonymous Coward]

While I was finishing my bachelors in EE I was having this exact same conflict. One of my professors told me that if you're a good student that generally gets good grades you'll probably eventually want a graduate degree anyway. You can do it now while you're still in school mode or you can wait until you're trying to do the full-time job and family thing on top of it. It's easier to to do now.

Having a masters degree does make a difference. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. I've been out of school for 5 years. In a recent job interview I was up against a guy without a degree but he had 20 years of experience in the field. I didn't get the job but I was at least able to be competitive. Without a master's degree, I probably would not have even been interviewed.

When in doubt, do it. It can only help.

You can change your mind later, too

[eabell]

A Masters is not going to help you get a coding job. A Master is going to help you get a research job.

There are companies out there that do research in the field of computer science -- large companies that might have a dedicated research lab or two, or small and mid-size companies that can be fully dedicated to research.

So figure out what you're interested in:

1. Strictly coding? Go out there and grab job experience. Maybe look into some sort of applicable certification, by Sun or Microsoft or someone. Get OpenSource experience. Code recreationally.

2. Research? Look into a Masters or PhD. Wondering how to find companies that do research? Google around for institutions like NSA and DARPA that grant research contracts, and see what companies are winning them.

3. Academics? You'll want a PhD -- unless you're interested in teaching below the college level, in which case you'll need to get teaching certified.

4. Management? A Masters could help, but so could a MBA (try one with a specialty in IT). Or work you way up the food chain (you'll have to do that anyway) and look into some sort of program management certification. Google around for something like 'PMP certification' and you'll read about them.

The good thing is you don't have to decide now. The better thing is, you can change you mind. I thought I wanted to do academics, did a year of PhD program at Georgia Tech, decided it wasn't for me, then decided I wanted to do research, joined a small research organization, then 15 years later decided to go back and work on my Masters. Even better? Where I work is paying me to pick up my Masters part time. I might also work on picking up my PMP certification, since I seem to have most of the requirements anyway.

Just remember, you can change your mind later.

Do both

[SanjayU]

Try to get a job that will pay for some portion of your MS. That way you don't miss out on the experience at work, and you get the MS. And, sorry, I hate to break it to all the naysayers, but, it does matter. The MS will open up doors for you **but you have to leverage it do so!*** You can't just bang out an MS and expect offers for 150k to be flying your way, you need to do the work. You need to market yourself, make sure you have the right real/technical skills, and then most important *go somewhere that values the education* People make the mistake of getting the MS and then going somewhere that would hire the guy with the BS. Go somewhere where the majority of people have advanced education (be it a big or small place). Don't cheat yourself by not doing this.

If I had it...

[Shads]

... to do over I'd have stayed in academia. Get your masters, get your doctorate, and get a job in academia somewhere. There is no better job when you factor in wage, stress, and vacation time.

Excellent -- let me ad a segway

[wonkavader]

Wonderful post.

But as someone who used to work for a University, let me add this:

Let's say you decide you need a masters, or at least want one. Be VERY careful about where you go to get it. Many departments in many schools see a master's program as a way to generate revenue. That's very different from the way they see undergrad and doctoral education. Those are what they REALLY do. Master's candidates come in to piggyback on the two core reasons for the department. That means that many master's program's are just a repackaging of the undergraduate classes at a high price.

That's really not going to help you, except to hand you a piece of paper. Other posts here have made a good point: You want to do a master's if you are fundamentally changing your approach. A good master's program should not be on how to program. It should be on how to lead programming teams. It should not be on how to read requirements. It should be on how to move into a company, establish the needs and goal of a company, come up with specs, and code the solution. It should feature engagements with local companies. It should change what you are and really teach you something.

Many (perhaps most) programs have no desire or intent to do that. They just want to move you through the existing resources they have at no (or very little) increase in cost to themselves. Do NOT wind up in such a program. Talk to a lot of people. Do not assume that a good name of an institution means they have a good program.

depends, but in the current climate..

[arikol]

It depends on a lot of things. In the current economic climate I would think that using the downturn to get ready for the next upturn is probably a good idea. It depends on what you want to add in your masters degree.

Going super theoretical may give you some interesting opportunities if you are really good.
That sort of specialization could get you into interesting territory.
If you are only an average student then I think doing the masters degree as practical as possible could still be a big help.

Parts of the masters degree can be done in conjunction with some kinds of real world companies as well, so that gives contacts and experience.

Just approach contact building and experience gathering as an ongoing project and you should do fine.

Masters will give you more options

[wonderboss]

At many large companies having only a bachelors degree will limit your advancement. If you specialize in an area that you really like and are lucky enough to get a job in the same field a Masters can translate into a lot more money and opportunity. The company I work for hires Masters graduates a full job grade above Bachelors. If the Masters student has specialized in the area they will be working on when they start, they are hired two job grades above the Bachelors.

Do both

[Anonymous Coward]

Do both... work full time and go for your masters part time.

Many companies will pay for some if not all of your tuition anyway.

3 years later you'll have the experience and the degree, and you'll be way more valuable.

If you like it, go for it

[russotto]

A few years ago I'd have said no, but if you look around now, particularly in some of the more prestigious companies, a lot of them are now asking for an MS in CS, CE, or EE for certain positions. But it's by no means universal, so if you're sick and tired of school or drowning in student debt, you still have the option of a going into the work force (well, assuming this recession gets over with). If it's the theory-heavy stuff you like, the masters is probably the better bet in the long run.

Work first, then get an MBA

[ppetrakis]

You'll find that once you start working that there's nothing you
can't pick up by reading a few books. Unless you want to be an engineer
forever (it's a burn out industry), I'd suggest that you start working
on your MBA after say 4-5 years in the field. By the time you're finished
you'll easily have the chops to be a project manager (at the very least a team lead) and then something more.

That is unless you have some idea you're passionate about that you want to pursue a thesis with, in which case you should pursue a PhD and not a Masters.

Re:Work first, then get an MBA

[clf8]

You're suggesting 4 years of schooling to be in a job for 4 years...to then go back to school for 2 more years to do something completely different. Ummm, why not just get the MBA to begin with.

Yes, a lot of engineers go MBA, or the consulting route. But if you're going to get an MBA after 4-5 years, why waste the time getting an engineering degree and working in the industry. Sure, technical knowledge will make you a better manager, but the timelines you lay out sound like a waste to me.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm graduating in less than a week with a BS in CS and personally have decided to stick with an MS program, although in Math and not CS, but that's a different story. However, having gone through the absolute garbage that is the job market (and been offered a $75k/year starting salary) I'll offer up my perspective on the issue.

My impression from any places I interviewed, which were basically all positions where you do nothing but churn out code, what people are saying about experience is very true. My interviewers weren't interested in my degree, my GPA, etc. etc. Hell, they didn't even request a copy of my transcripts before offering me the job. Instead of focusing on what classes I took and what grades I got, each interviewer ran me through a rigorous technical interview--Data structures, OO design techniques, C/C++ code debugging, very basic algorithm design (not even as complicated as optimization), etc. etc. They're much more interested in what you can do when you get there than what you have done in academia.

Honestly, I've been crawling monster/dice/career building/school job networks/etc. for months now looking at various job postings in the realm of CS and what I've seen posted as requirements for a job which requires a BS in CS really need nothing more than the knowledge you gained during your undergrad mixed with a little real world application and know how which can easily be obtained through internships, joining open source projects or personal projects. These companies basically want someone who paid attention in their data structures & algorithms, programming languages and oop classes. Going through a masters program in CS as far as I can tell isn't going to really improve on these skill sets as any MS degree program is going to assume (as they are the basic building blocks required for any theory or programming classes you will take) that you have already acquired them.

The jobs I saw which required an MS to even be considered as a candidate were much more academic positions usually dealing in more theoretical research at places like national labs, universities, etc. Granted, they're generally higher on the pay scale and the masters will undoubtedly open up doors in terms of pay scale caps, etc. I wouldn't go for a masters in CS straight out of an undergrad unless you plan to stay in academia. If, however, when you graduate the job market is still in the toilet, an MBA is always a great way to up your earning potential as long as you don't mind dealing with bureaucratic bs and management.

Get your masters

[Fujisawa Sensei]

A Bachelors in Computer Engineering will get you exactly the same place a Bachelors in Engineering Physics will get you; a Programming position.

If you ever want to do any real engineering work, get the Masters. If you actually want to get into R&D get the Ph.D. and start building industry relationships.

And most companies aren't going to pay for a Masters in Computer Engineering since it isn't related to your job; but they'll pay for a Masters in Software Engineering.

masters

[juraj]

In our country, people usually do both at once: masters and work experience. Anyways, masters is not something you would do later, that's something, you should do now. After going to work, I guarantee you, you are not going back to the university.

So go for it, the worst that could happen is that you don't finish it.

Maybe try abroad combined with some work experience.

go for the masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Go for the Masters, it will benefit you in the long run, and you will find it easier to keep going now, while you are in school, than go back later, when you have bills and life stuff. I say this as one who knows.

If you are not sure, then try an internship. That will give you some experience while you figure yourself out. Also, with the economy in the toilet, it's a better time to stay in school, rather than look for a job. If you can hold out for another year or two, improving economic conditions will make finding a job you want much easier.

Diversify

[DrWho520]

If possible, I would suggest getting your MS in a field outside your BS to diversify your education. (My BS is in Physics and my MS is in Applied Mathematics.) I would also suggest that if you have to pay for your graduate degree out of your own pocket, you are doing something wrong. Many employers have continuing education programs that will pay for a graduate degree. I think you should only stay within the University system if you have a TA position that pays for tuition.

Going to work right away could really be the best of both worlds. You can earn work experience and get your degree through an employee continuing education program. My suggestion, when the time comes, is to apply for graduate school and commence the job search. Grad school will act as a safety net, but it also looks great on a resume or during an interview. I would also talk to those professors and see what the chances are to getting accepted to a program and getting a TA position.

Masters, especially for international work

[chickenandporn]

Two years of experience is not weak, by any means, but academic achievement is externally-verifiable.

For any international thoughts, go with the degree: Minimum degree for British Tier-1 Visa is Masters. Chinese see Ph.D as we see Masters, and a simple B.Sc is "well, OK, but weak".

While you're in the academic mode (no sleep, lots of study, brain like a sponge) use that to soak up a few more diplomas.

Masters got me better pay to start

[Anonymous Coward]

When I started at my current engineering job after finishing up an MSEE, my starting salary was equivalent to someone who had been at the company for two years - exactly how long it took to do the masters. I also started with two years of work experience credited towards my retirement date.

Going to grad school was worth it for the chance to travel to conferences on the school's dime, to work with an internationally renowned professor, to meet incredibly bright people, and to do some fascinating original research.

is it too much to ask for both?

[nacho_dh]

I'm aware that the situation might be different in the US (assuming you live in the US), but if you really like what you do, I see no reason not to do both at the same time.

I'm about to graduate as an Informatics Engineer (in Argentina the Engineering degree is between a Master's and a Doctorate) and I've been working full-time in this bussiness since I started my studies.

Far from being an isolated case, this is actually a common situation among undergrads. It helps to pay college, get experience, and make contacts.

Isn't getting your Master's and working at the same time an option in your case?

Keep your head down / Go into Sales

[dcraid]

Like it or not you are in school mode. Stay in school, wait out the economy. Once you are in the job market, life will present too many distractions. Get the degree while you can.

I got my MBA straight out of school, went into pre-sales and now make more than most engineers.

Sales Engineering is challenging, a lot of fun, and can be very lucrative.

depends what for

[turnipforge]

depends what you want to do. you can earn loads of cash writing generic business logic type programs in e.g. financial sector: no MSC required. if you want to do real computer science i.e. development of algorithms e.g. partitioning or searching or scientific computing then more education is essential

No down side

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have the means to get your Masters there is no reason not to. It can only help you.

Wow slashdot, you disappoint

[Anonymous Coward]

There is some serious ignorance on this thread. In all my years reading /. I have NEVER seen such blatant stupidity here.

IT != CS != CpE.

Most of you guys don't even know what a Computer Engineer is which invalidates 95% of the advice given so far.

A Masters degree at a REAL company that offers you a REAL future is INVALUABLE. You cannot and will not move forward in responsibilities and/or management options unless you have a Masters.

PhDs do not necessarily put you only in academia. Many larger companies need PhDs to run their R&D departments. Since you are THE expert in your field (instead of riding someone else's coattails in for a Masters), if the company you are hired for needs THE expert in that field; they will hire YOU and pay you a LOT of money. You will be put in charge of people that only got a Master's degree as members of your team.

If you enjoy R&D on cutting edge stuff (CpE has great options upcoming for many major autonomous robotics projects, the private space industry, and the forthcoming moonshot by NASA and several other countries), then get your PhD. It takes the same amount of time as a Masters degree and you can skip the Masters altogether if you go to the right school.

However, it all depends on what you want to do. At the very least, get your masters degree. It makes a huge difference. Your work experience will come on its own. But you will set yourself apart from your colleagues by having a better education and more thorough understanding of the subject of your career.

Nice discussion

[Anonymous Coward]

These are all great responses.

I have a BS in CS with 8 years experience between the U.S. and Russia. I've participated on panels which have interviewed candidates from a variety sources: PhDs from NASA, Boeing, Microsoft, MS/BS graduates from China, the Ukraine, the U.S., etc... While the credentials looked nice on paper, our topic of conversation ultimately reverted back to work experience, demonstrations of problem solving, and people skills. Those three things seemed to take precedence over any academic qualification.

I personally will finish my MS at some point strictly because I enjoy the coursework. But so far in my career and chosen profession as a Software Engineer, I haven't seen a great incentive to obtain an MS strictly for advancement purposes (although, as some posts indicate, this largely depends on corporate policy).

My 2 cents is education is never a waste. If you have the desire and means to engage in furthering your knowledge you'll be making an investment - this includes but is not limited to a Masters.

Depends....

[uniqueUser]

Do you have good expectations of finding a job right now? If so, I would say go get the job and then work on masters in two to three years.... But, if you have the ability to stay in school or think that you might get lazy and not go back to school, then get the masters now. Perfect thing to keep you busy while the economy turns around.

What the master degree says between the lines...

[Anonymous Coward]

One important thing that a Masters degree says on your resume is the fact that you are willing to go the extra mile. No many people go for it, therefore the Masters degree shows discipline and commitment to long term goals.

On the knowledge side, well, in the IT field you ALWAYS need to keep studying in order to be up to date, so academy is always praised as a trusted an reliable source of knowledge.

Go for it

A MS in CS is a Good Thing

[RandCraw]

I'm 50, earned my MS in CS 20 years ago, and have worked in CS R&D for the past 20 years.

Here's why a MS in CS is a good thing:

1) You can take 10 more courses and learn 10 more subjects that you didn't have time for during your BS. Examples: intelligent agents, robotics, machine learning, compiler optimization, virtual machines, advanced graphics, image processing, signal processing, parallel computing, quantum computing, microarchitecture, computer security, computational biology, advanced networks, mobile computing, pure math, applied math, advanced statistics. For many employers, the presence of the right combination of courses in your resume can be very important, and very likely will make the difference in preferring you to another job candidate.

2) Employers value credentials. When it comes time to promote the next staffer into management, they will consider your education. In the first decade of your career, a MS will definitely help you get the more interesting assignments or step up into management.

3) You are less likely to be at a competitive disadvantage to your coworkers. For the first 5 years of your career, almost everyone in the company will have more work experience than you. If you also know less than they do academically, then you lose.

4) Everyone values a MS more than a BS. Knowing more is always better than knowing less.

5) If you want to work in R&D, don't. Not without a PhD. That said, the (optional) research component of a MS may have more value to a R&D shop than would the alternative -- two additional courses. The thesis shows your ability to do (some) research. That said, most non-R&D employers would prefer the courses anyway.

        Randy

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[BigGar']

Be careful about this plan if you really want the degree. This was my idea and its amazing how real life will keep you from going back for a long time. Especially if you get married & have a kid, all of a sudden the good pay check you're earning now will be much more important that the possibly better paycheck you'll earn tomorrow. Even finding the time /money to do an online masters later on may be rather tough while taking care of your other responsibilities

Wait for the Singularity.

[Sybert42]

After that, you'll have a PhD in everything.

Forget the Masters - experience is king in IT

[carolfromoz]

Of course your professors think it's a great idea - they get funding based on post grad numbers. In 20 years of working in IT I have yet to find even my bachelors degree of any use. I have worked alongside people with PhDs and people who never went to university - none of it is important - all that matters is your skills and experience. So forget the masters and get experience!

What do you want to do?

[darqit]

Seriously instead of asking the slashdot crowd about career advice (brave). What do you want to do? Do you like your field of study? Do you think the CS master at your college is interesting? Worthwhile?

What i'm trying trying to say is this: Is your life about making money? More money than the idiot who spend two more years in college? If so good luck on your road to happiness. If not then you know the answer.

Do not bother

[Anonymous Coward]

in the normal industry, sooner or later your big boss will decide to hire an Indian company, and some guy who claims to have 15 years experience in any technology, even the one that came up two years back, plus any degree one asks for, all backed up with experience and references (all from India) will have your job.

Work Experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I had been told when applying for a Masters, they would look more favorable to approval if you had more than 5 years of work experience. Right now, I don't feel a Master would really give you anything more than a bigger loan and maybe a slightly higher salary. Work experience is much better in my opinion because you may not know what you like or what you want to focus in your career. If you work for 5 years, you might find that you would like to focus more on Databases, Web, Graphic Design, Middle-tier architecture, etc etc. I think it is best to find a job that your company will pay for the masters, work a few years, then have them pay for it. You might owe them 5 years of work for them to pay for he education but it is worth it.

It's a long term investment

[js_sebastian]

Given the choice between two candidates for a job: candidate A has 2 years experience doing the job they are going for, candidate B has zero experience of the job they are going for but has a piece of paper that says they have a masters, which would you choose?

Now try this choice. Once candidate has 10 years work experience. The other has 8 years work experience, and a master. Which one would you choose?

It all depends ...

[golodh]

It all depends on your own take on your qualities.

Let's be blunt: if you're talented, a masters degree is easy and quick to do, and is probably your best bet regardless of any other considerations. Provided you complete it on schedule, it also proves that you are not just able to passively absorb and reproduce a lot of information, but also (depending a bit on what school you go to) that you are capable of independently applying the theory that's around in your area of expertise to a specific problem. That potentially makes you more valuable than someone with just a bachelor's degree, even if you have a little less on-the-job coding experience.

Unless what your prospective employer needs (or thinks he needs, or rather what his HR department thinks he needs) are straight-up coders who work hard and don't ask questions. In that case a BSc with more coding experience will be preferred.

In order to advance in the field you'll need to build a resume with successfully completed projects, in which it must be clear what *you* did (as opposed to the team you worked in). Writing a Master's thesis gives you such a project, which you'll have to do all by yourself (not counting all the advice and supervision you'll get). The point is that a Master's course is designed to allow you to shine, while work-experience is not. If you are really talented, you can show that in your thesis. What you will get in a workplace is a lot of simple tasks which, if completed in time and to-spec show that you're a solid production worker who may be ready for some more difficult assignments. In addition, if you're not the shiny type, your Masters work will still be a solid achievement.

If you think it would be hard to go on, then getting into the workplace is probably best. However, unless you show outstanding talent and/or managerial aptitude, your BSc degree will more likely slot you in a career as a coder than as a designer of software.

Last but not least. I don't want to scare you, but low-added-value work like pure (low-level) coding can easily be outsourced. To India for example. More complicated work, and especially work that involves a little thought and local knowledge is less easy to outsource.

Mostly irrelevent replies...

[univgeek]

Most of the replies are irrelevant as they address different fields. While an MS is less useful than work experience in many fields, that's not nearly as true in Elec Engg, or Comp Engg. or any math-heavy fields.

I've done my MS in the Elec. dept. If your MSCE is like CE at my school, then it's going to be a lot of Comp. Arch., VLSI, Solid State, Analog Elec., Signal Processing, etc. which you CANNOT learn on the job. My rule of thumb - heavier the math in a course, lower the probability that you can learn it on the job. Very few employers let you learn on the job - and math-heavy stuff is far easier to learn at school.

An MS is a minimum qualification to get into the mid-level of places like Qualcomm, Analog Devices, TI, Intel, AMD, etc. So my advice? Do an MS CE, make sure you do interns at every possible opportunity. Or if you're near a school which lets you do a part-time MS, start working, and start your MS too. Not doing an MS will get you stuck very soon!

CS CS CS!

[Sybert42]

Is there some sort of corollary to the old "all on the internet are male unless proven otherwise"? All on slashdot are of the Computer Science type until proven otherwise. We're all CS after Singularity.

The psychological aspects

[gr8dude]

Here's what I wish to tell you in this discussion. I graduated several years ago and my plan was to continue the studies without pauses. However, the planets aligned in such a way that I decided to stay where I was - a company where I started working when I was half-way on my path towards the BSc in Computer Science.

It has been almost three years since then, and throughout this time I felt that I still wanted to study something. "Hunger for knowledge"? Maybe, but I've been exercising my brain all this time - reading books, researching various fields, writing essays, helping people - I learned many things but I still wasn't satisfied.

Recently I was contacted by one of my university professors and asked whether I was interested in a teaching position. I thought that was a great idea because it would bring me back into the academic environment. I expected this to have a positive effect on me and somehow supress this "need for more".

It did, I enjoy the process very much, I get along with the students... but I still have the feeling that I want to learn more, that there are several fields in which I am not yet sufficiently advanced, etc.

I must also point out that in the meantime I became the CEO of my company.

Today I don't regret not taking an MSc course back a few years, but I am considering getting one in the near future. In the years since graduation I sharpened my skills, I got a better idea of what I want to do next, and I became a more mature person.

Immediately after graduation I was thinking about an MSc because "it's the next item in the list, everyone does it and MSc is better than no MSc". Today I know exactly why I want it - improve myself in order to be able to do better, plus I have a list of features which need to be improved.

I make more than I actually need, and I believe that many other people would choose to change nothing if they were in my shoes; but the thought of continuing my studies never leaves me.

If you are like me, then consider not getting an MSc right away, but spend some time working in the field. After a couple of years think about the problem again and figure out whether an MSc is what you need or not.

Something is wrong here....

[cheap.computer]

From the question and all the comments above, it is clear that the focus of one going to university is not education or knowledge but ROI. If you really want to make great returns you don't need any degree, many of the business owners I know dont even have high school. But, if you are really interested in gaining more knowledge then go for your MS. MS degree should add more weight when when you apply for a job, and when you switch jobs. Also, it will help you when you see a leadership position within any large corp. Also, some of the more influential friends I made were my classmates from my MS program :)

So go for it if you genuinely feel like you need to learn more, its not all about ROI, it should be really about knowledge and experience you gain from your MS program.

School Teachers without an Education degree

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't just blame the HR departments--the teachers' unions have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Some school systems were breaking out of that mold and hiring people with degrees in other areas, at least in Massachusetts

JoeB
http://layoffsupportnetwork.com

MS -- BS

[ossuary]

I work in an IT department that works with a university. Not so much for the university as much as handle IT issues from outside university clients (foundations, privatizing research groups, etc...). We are housed at a university, but not part of any faculty or teaching program. In other words, we are not academic in any sense of the word except that we are housed on university land. For years certifications from Novell or Microsoft were shoved down our throat as the only way to get a promotion. When one of our "certified" employees failed to solve fairly simple issue for the VP, certifications were dropped as a mandate for promotion and emphasis was placed on real world learning. This was a good thing. Now several years later, new administration has turned over that policy and is requiring Masters degrees for promotion. Admin does not care what type of Masters, just as long as you get one. As it works out, this is also right before many of us would be eligible for a promotion. Because it happens during a bad budget time, this is seen as being done for a few reasons: 1. More Masters requirements equals more student enrollment (yes it is from within, but they do not care.. a student is a student as far as rolls go). 2. More money going back into the university. Getting 4 hours of classtime free a semester is a drop in the bucket when you consider your time and money that you will spend to meet your Masters requirement. 3. The Masters requirement is used as a tool to keep the salaries down of those who would normally be eligible for promotion based on time, effort, and accomplishment. Because the rules of the game changed mid-stream, this has really ticked a lot in the IT groups off, but given the economy, many of us are stuck. Most are in their 30's and 40's and have a family (myself included). Leaving at 5:00 (more like 6:30!) from work to then go home and work on a Masters "requirement" considering how much effort is already put in, is just not sitting well. One of the guys looked into a 12 month program from another university. He was willing to pay out of his own pocket to get it done quicker, but our university said they would not honor it EVEN THOUGH they honor the same degree from that same school for other programs. This furthers the idea that the Masters requirement is being placed on us to make money for the school and not as part of a realistic plan for employee advancement.

work then grad school

[pak9rabid]

The chair of the department I graduated from in school made a good point; if you're wanting to get your masters, go to work for a few years after you get your undergrad, then go back for your masters. This does potentially 2 things for you: 1.) you get a few years of real-world work experience under your belt (I don't care what anyone says...relevant work experience is much more valuable than academic experience, if you plan to work in the real world), and 2.) if you work at the right place, you just might be able to get your work to foot the bill for grad school.

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's the "+1, Hell Yeah!" option when you need it... :-)

Counter Example

[Ruzty]

My mother has a doctorate in education. She has 15 years of classroom experience in K-8 and another 10 in administration (principal and curriculum development). She spent over 6 years teaching for Vanderbilt University's graduate school of education after retiring from her real world experience.

How things are at the school you attended does not extend to the world at large. There are universities out there who hire professors with real classroom experience. Perhaps you should find a better school?

Worked for me

[sveiki_neliels]

I did my undergrad in Computer Engineering at the University of Toronto. I had a strong interest in architectures and compilers, but undegrad left me woefully underqualified for jobs involving either. I could have gone into the workforce, but I don't think I would have gotten a great job. After two years, I don't think I would have had the opportunities I wanted.

I did my Master's in Computer Engineering on parallel architectures and pipeline multithreading. It was a great experience, got to co-author a paper (free trip to Europe) and author another coming up soon. I learned a lot from the courses but mostly from thesis work. You get to explore a lot of interesting ideas that you may not have time for when working, but will enhance your job. And you aren't rushed as much as you might be in the workplace. A lot will depend on a thesis topic and your supervisor, though.

I finished my degree recently and am now a Java JIT compiler developer at IBM. It's a great job and I'm definitely being tapped for some of the specialized and cutting-edge knowledge I got while doing my thesis. I didn't actually apply for this job, but since there was a relationship with my research group and this department, I just got a phonecall from my current manager asking me if I would like to come in for an interview.

I slacked of a lot in my master's program, and I regret not putting more into it. However, on the other side of completion, I am definitely glad I did it. I have only been in this department a few months, but already people come to me for help with processor architecture questions. I am treated as an expert, and feel quite happy about that.

I always have a PhD in the back of my head, but I don't think it is something I really want to do. It is a much longer investment, and the return on investment is actually worse from what I hear from my PhD friends.

Absolutely Not

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting a Masters Degree in CS is a waste of time as far as the work world is concerned. They may pay you slightly more starting out, but that's just for the prestige. If you are not going into academia, its better to start working now.

IMHO, the disjunct between "Ivory Tower" Comp. Sci. and real world programming grows more and more the higher you climb in academia. Most comp sci. profs are producing the computing equivalent of figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - i.e. things of no practical value. For example, if you mention something like mathematical proofs of program correctness anywhere outside of academia, they'll look at you like you have two heads. And rightly so - it has nothing to do with how code is written and done today.

You're better off figuring out some area of computing that you like the most (databases, web, networks, etc.) and chosing between Microsoft based tech and UNIX based tech and immersing yourself in that than getting a Masters.

WORK

[gay4math]

I am currently seeking two undergrad degrees.. CS and SE with a focus in Information Assurance. I've been in the field for over a year now and having been through several interviews and making friends with hiring managers in the area I've learned that as long as you have an undergrad degree it shows you are able to learn and focus somewhat. But they much rather you have the work experience, and prove yourself worthy of being their employee. I say getting a masters is never a bad idea, it won't hurt anything by any means.. but why can't you work and go to school? I'm slightly annoyed with people who think all they can do is go to school full time and not work. Trust me dude, if i can do it, you can too :)

Only Gov't Jobs Need a Masters

[banffbug]

They rank candidates on a merit system. A masters has more merit than a Bachelors, but ~2 years experience will cancel that out. But a Masters will give you more opportunity to advance, basically all management (read: do nothing) jobs in the government require a Masters.

This is Canada, US or whereever may be different.

Pick the right university in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

and you'll get a Masters degree if you stay alive for three years (because you're "assumed to have been studying" in that time).

OK, so that means that the MA itself isn't actually worth anything - except to annoy people who've actually worked for the same qualification and to question the value of all such qualifications.

My advice is to follow your nose - do what you think you'll enjoy most. That'll depend on what job options you've got and what Masters options you've got - an "is X better than Y" question makes no sense without knowing the details of X and Y.

- Anonymous Cantabrigian.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[0100010001010011]

I never said that employers don't care about internships. Internally, internships didn't do much to point me to the direction of what I wanted to know (other than stay the hell out of the Auto industry, and this is when things were 'good').

My biological clock isn't ticking. Say you graduate with a BS at 23. Go back for your MS at 26. What better way to spend 26-28 than picking up 18 to 22 year olds while working on a masters :).

Competitiveness/ Real training

[uneek]

I have a master's degree in computer science.

I believe that it depends on how strong and detailed your undergraduate experience is. The coursework for a master's degree provides one with a very good education, with deep knowledge in specific topics. Many undergrad programs just scratch the surface.

In the computer science field, many employers would rather outsource than hire an entry level graduate. A master's degree and the knowledge that comes with helps you out against the competition.

I really like this reasoning...

[gillbates]

This is why I - an engineer costing my employer $250/hour - am doing IT work. Someone in corporate thinks the company will save money by laying off IT workers. Instead, it usually works out like this:

1. We're an engineering company, and yes, our engineers do know networking. Problem is, they aren't as familiar with the network as someone employed specifically for that task. So it takes them longer to diagnose the problem, and often don't have the authority necessary to fix it.
2. What typically happens is that because the engineer doesn't have the authority necessary to fix problems, they come up with their own half-baked workaround which works for them, but generally causes larger problems in the long term, but that's ok because:
3. Some big boss saved money on the budget this quarter, and got *his* bonus.
4. So now we have engineers billing the company $250 an hour for doing IT work, which takes them about twice as long as an IT tech would; it costs the company about 4 times as much money per incident, and
5. Now we have more incidents than otherwise, because departments/engineers take it upon themselves only to fix the immediate problem, and ignore the longer term implications.
6. And lets not forget the IT department is now spending less on IT. Bonuses for the IT managers as well!
7. So now, the net effect is that we're shifting IT work to the engineering budget, where equivalent work costs us 4 times or more what it would cost if the IT department did it. But since we're saving money on paper, all the bosses collect their bonuses, while their bosses can't figure out why we can't ship products on time.
8. Eventually, the higher level managers will either hire consultants to figure out why development costs are so high (who, in turn, will recommend hiring more IT workers... repeat ad infinitum), or:
9. The strategic managers will declare the business unit to be non-viable and sell it to another company and/or layoff all the workers. Oh, and let's not forget that the managers will move on to other companies, where they'll use their stellar examples of cost control as a bullet point on their resumes.

Re:I really like this reasoning...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I - an engineer costing my employer $250/hour - am doing IT work. Someone in corporate thinks the company will save money by laying off IT workers.

Your list was good. It also works even if you don't have one $250/hr engineer but instead ten $25/hr sales people which is the less obvious but more common issue.

masters in CS mostly useless

[one_who_uses_unix]

After more than 20 years in the industry (13 or so as a software engineer/programmer, a few years manager, a few more as a systems architect) I can unequivocally say that a Masters Degree is nearly useless.

A post-graduate degree means nothing compared to another candidate with a few years more of meaningful experience related to the job. Even if the experience is not directly related, if they can demonstrate their problem solving skills and ability to adapt through that experience I am going to be far more interested in them.

I realize that this is anecdotal, however it seems to me that there is a huge representation of non-post graduate degrees in the higher paid levels of jobs related to computer science.

Other disciplines may make sense, but post graduate (and in some cases baccalaureate) degrees are a waste of time and money.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[Erwos]

Internships are extremely valuable _once you know what you want to do_. They're less so when you're still feeling around (eg, freshman and sophmore years). People who have their BS probably fall into the former category, or at least I hope they do.

Your biological clock might not be ticking, but life seldom goes as people plan it will.

Dont listen to drones

[archsupafly]

No offense, but there seems to be a lot of teachers, IT folks, and programmers from big dumb companies giving you advice. If you want to work as a teacher, an IT administrator, or a programmer at a big dumb company, by all means, listen to their advice. But my guess is you didn't start the CS program to have boring job...you started it to make cool things and hopefully make a lot of money in the process. None of the above qualify so ignore it. The most excited CS guys are usually the ones working for Google like companies. I say "Google like" because what you really want is a pre IPO Google. One that is still small and growing rapidly and building amazingly cool things, and oh yeah has the chance to go public and make everybody a lot of money. CS guys at a company like that aren't overhead, they are the lifeblood of the company. What does that have to do with a masters? Because cool companies like that are often (rightly) led by tech driven management, not lame HR. And tech driven management likely puts a premium on CS degrees, especially if it's a grad degree from a good school. How do I know? I run one of these companies and I have two open recs right now where I'm not even looking at your resume you unless you have a *Masters in CS/CE*.

Not worthless

[blueg3]

My own experience is only slightly applicable: I was in a Ph.D. program in Physics and left with a Master's. I'm now a programmer at an R&D company. You don't generally get hired here without an advanced degree. (As a Ph.D. student in the hard sciences, I was paid to go to grad school.)

I disagree that a Master's is worthless. If you're really interested in the subject and can do a research-oriented program, it's invaluable. It's a significant qualification point at higher levels -- to the point that it's common for people to go back to school to get one.

If you're not that interested in the subject, though, you won't get much out of a Master's, so I'm not sure it would go well for you.

Masters won't help you in many places

[crusty_yet_benign]

I recently hired a CS masters graduate. He's really bright; otherwise, we wouldn't have hired him. He's doing the usual new guy "toilet-licking" tasks; massive integrates of required-but-unpopular technologies, whitebox testing, automation and application profiling. Someday, he'll get to work on tasks specifically related to his masters. Hopefully, his masters will prepare him for success in those pursuits. For today, he gets to earn his stripes, like any other recent hire.

academia?

[drdozer]

A masters in CS is worth doing, particularly if you want to do more than be a code monkey (design work, project management, ...). Programming is a skill. You can learn a lot from books and classes, but ultimately you only learn by doing. So, if you are going to go down the rout of further structured learning, pick a course that is heavy on coursework and projects, and get yourself work experience placements during the holidays. PhDs in CS are well worth doing if you wish to stay in academia. The focus in academia is on the theory of software, not on making things that really work. This doesn't suit everybody. Above all, don't stay in academia or in a programming job if you don't enjoy it. Life is short, and there is plenty of crappy code written by people who hate programming and their job. If you get it right, creating software can be a hoby that you get paid for. What else can anyone ask for?

Masters and more

[Anonymous Coward]

In a hyper-competitive global market, you want the masters degree and any other edge you can get. This is especially true if you want to do anything that's remotely interesting. For example, a lot of software start-ups come out of graduate research.

work, then school

[sorak]

As someone who got a Masters before going into the field, I can say one disadvantage.

My school focused heavily on software engineering, and every step of the way, you would hear "it works nothing like that in the real world". After getting out of school, I can say that software engineering is like a cluttered toolbox. 75% of it is stuff that you do not need for what you're trying to do right now, and some of it you will never need again.

The problem is, that you may find yourself swapping out parts, as you move from project to project. I personally feel that, had I walked into those higher classes with a foundation of education combined with experience, that I would have paid more attention in some areas, and would have seen some of the lessons not just as a bulleted list to memorize by 5pm, but as tools that can be applied in a practical way.

So, my suggestion is to work, if you can find a job, and wait on grad school.

For Computer Engineering, consider a Master's

[sdbbp]

First, if you don't enjoy school, don't subject yourself to two more years. I'm glad I continued for an MSEE after my undergrad CompE degree, but kept using summers for internships. The breadth and depth of additional coursework gave me a knowledge base I draw upon constantly. The teaching assistantship has helped me be a better mentor. The research assistantship wasn't too relevant, but it certainly paid tuition! I went to a top-tier school, and I'd recommend that experience. If you're planning to go somewhere else for a graduate degree, I can't judge the value. Especially in Computer Engineering (chip design) advanced degrees seem very prevalent among my co-workers. At one chip start-up, all dozen people in my role held an MSEE, except the boss. If you establish a connection with industry (internships), gain practical skills (programming), engage in your classes and research, and don't accumulate too much debt, I think you can come out ahead.

Depends what you want to do...

[dkh2]

If you just want to code... even to the point that the thought of getting your hands on a really messed up algorithm makes your shorts tight... your bachelor level degree is sufficient.

If you want to teach or manage you should go for the masters.

If you're one of those really out there theoretical geeks who substitutes lab time for E there should be a Ph.D. in your academic plans.

Basically the answer is no.

[jrhawk42]

I'd recommend trying to get real world experience. If you can't find a job, or have worked a few jobs and don't like your work then you can start looking at Grad school. Sadly most people in academia will always suggest getting more education, and those in the workforce will always suggest more experience. So you never really get a good stand point especially from academia since many don't have a lot of workforce experience.

If you love computer science,do a masters!

[Anonymous Coward]

I asked myself the same question. I decided to take 1 year out and gain some work experience before finishing my degree. I have been working for Microsoft Ireland as a software development intern for the past year now and I hate it. I cannot wait to return to college. Large software companies are not the place for students interested in solving interesting problems and changing the world. Large software companies crush innovation and imagination, the attitude here is get it done, fix it tomorrow.

Masters is a key to a door

[weiserfireman]

It all depends on what kind of career you want to have.

Take my brother-in-law for example. He got his Mechanical Engineering BS and started interviewing. Most of his job offers were for Production Engineering type jobs. When I was working on an Engineering degree, I found the same thing. 80% of the Engineering jobs in manufacturing are Production Engineering.

But he didn't want to do production engineering. So he stayed and got his Masters. Instead of doing a bunch of classes he did research. He designed tested and wrote a thesis on a pollution control system for diesel engines.

When he interviewed after that, he was interviewing for R&D jobs. No one wanted him for a production position, They wanted him to design solutions for them.

Your mileage may vary. A Master's Degree opens doors you may not have even known existed.

II is dead

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Get out while you can. IT is going to hell in a handbasket fast. Your master's and Bachelors degrees won't mean squat when they can outsource your job to someone in India with a fake degree for 1/10th the cost. It's a race to the bottom and I don't know why anyone would try to make a career in such a pathetic, cutt-throat industry. All these people who say all this crap about hiring are full of it. They always say "Well if you can code you can get a job" but they don't even define a good coder nor would they know one if they saw one. If you really want to work in IT, just lie your ass off, use a fake degree, take the money, and run. Soon you'll have an impressive resume with big name companies on it and you can sit on slashdot and brag about how you're a real hard-core coder...

Come to Australia!

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia, you can do a "Masters (by Coursework)" degree that will be vastly easier
than your undergraduate course.

They are aimed at fleecing international students.

Education is Australia's third-largest export income earner.

It's not for you...

[6er]

Get the MS. It will never be easier or cheaper. Both a BS and an MS are simply credentials that prevent your resume from being rejected early. Where I currently work, they don't consider candidates without an MS. Play the game, get the degree. Make contacts, never burn bridges...

Masters, the new Bachelors

[Anonymous Coward]

Real-world experience is the most important, but sometimes that degree gives you an edge in the job market. So if it is work or school, choose work.

If you can get a job at the same time, go for the masters while school still fits into your life. It is hard to go back to staying up all night and eating ramen noodles when you have a wife and kids.

Culture Difference

[Tablizer]

if the only reason you are considering postgraduate courses is that it might increase your employability, then you shouldn't be considering them.

Agreed. The best way to increase your income is to get a certification in some high-end "corporate-sized" tool, such as Oracle, DB2, Java server tuning, network security, etc. In other words, specialize in some specific technology product used by big co's with deep pockets.

This condition is one of the reasons why US citizens tend to be scarcer in higher-end degrees. Masters and PhD's are valued more outside the US. It's not that US students are "dumb", as some work-visa lobbying firms claim. It's just a culture difference. US companies continue to favor "practical" knowledge, and masters generally don't provide this in their mind[1]. They'd often rather rent consultants for very specialized analysis projects rather than have internal staff anyhow.

[1] Whether they "should" value more theory is another long and messy topic.

What "computer engineering"?

[Animats]

Well, first, what do you mean by "computer engineering"? Do you want to design graphics boards, or set up data centers? If you're really going to do serious electronic design, you need both the degree and the experience. If you're mostly going to install big systems, the theory may not be that helpful. An MBA might be more useful.

Forty years ago, being an EE who designed serious hardware paid about as well as being a lawyer. (The IEEE has numbers on this.) That is no longer the case. Hardware design also isn't as much fun as it used to be. You're constrained on all sides - size, power consumption, cost, and schedule. There's less opportunity to be clever. Most electronics design work is now done outside the US now, anyway. When the manufacturing goes, the design work follows a few years later. Aerospace is much smaller than it used to be, too.

If you really are interested in how it all works inside, though, go for it. Computer engineering is far less superficial than IT. You're less tied to whatever fad is up this month.

BS v. MS

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer to this question is pretty simple really. It depends entirely on if you are positively sure and passionate about a specific aspect of computer engineering. A BS is designed to get you a wide breadth of knowledge whilst your MS is designed to focus on one aspect. If you know exactly what you want to do then go for your MS. Get on a research team and make a name for yourself. The contacts you will make in a masters program are invaluable. You will also be able to have published articles and earn fellowships which will only bolster your resume and more importantly your exposure. It will be much easier to get your masters now then to wait. The economy is not that conducive to getting a good job now anyway.

But we compete against you

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know you, but I don't have your best interests at heart. Someday you could be competing against me for a job. It's in my own interest to make sure I get the job over you.

With that said, don't bother obtaining a Masters. If anything, you should have just gone to a community college.

M.S. for a Computer Engineer can be worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a company where almost everyone is either a CE or an EE. Here's what I can tell you.

1. Don't do a Master's only for the money. You will hate your life.

2. A Master's degree is practically required to be hired in my company and it will get you a higher salary right off the bat. It also enables future promotions that would come slower without a Master's.

3. When you're a Master's student, you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO get an internship so that you get private-sector experience while studying. You need it in order to have the maturity associated with 2 years work experience and you will have a foot in the door for getting a job.

4. Don't get a cheesy MS. Get it from a good research oriented University if possible. You will notice the difference compared to people who are just after a piece of paper.

5. Nobody cares whether you enter the company at 21, 25, or 30. Things happen in peoples' lives, people were in military, whatever, employers understand this.

Not job training

[grumpyman]

I think professors will almost always think doing grad study is good, but the answer gotta come from you evaluating pros/cons. I wouldn't say 2 more years of working experiences is definitely better, but the bottom-line is that, getting a grad degree is definitely NOT additional 'job/work training'.

Why not do both?

[pawelw]

In Poland, at my university, we're getting a masters degree and during that time (5 years) we have to get minimum of 1 year work experience. I think, that's a good way of learning both practical and theoretical skills.

2 cents of general advice

[wilgibson]

I'll throw in my two cents having been in an Master's program and dropped out to change programs due to little or no opportunities in the field I was studying.

Since you have a year left, start studying the job market and make a decision for yourself whether or not your BS in CS will get you a job. Look at the amount of opportunities you have available and the qualifications they are looking for in an employee. For most (if not all) graduate programs you won't have to start applying until your last semester of your undergraduate studies so you have a few more months to really look into things. If you don't think you will be qualified enough (or even have a chance) for the jobs available then take your time and get the MS. Should you decide to go for the MS the worst it will do for you is add on to any loans you may if you have to borrow, the best it will do for you is keep you out of a market that you can't get a job in anyways and provide you with something to work towards while waiting for jobs to possibly pick up.

If you have the grades most professors will tell you it is a good/great idea to go on and get your Master's degree. Not every field needs you to get a Master's and not every professor truly knows if it is necessary or not to have outside of academia. Ask your adviser/professor if they know someone outside of academia in your field of choice you can contact to ask questions. While doing this you may just create a new bridge to help with employment.

Do Both Simultaneously

[Pipes]

As a recent job searcher, I found that having a Master's helped immensely in just getting my foot in the door for interviews. That being said, without work experience, I don't believe it will help out initially. I worked full-time while going to grad school, so not only did I have 5 years of work experience, but a Master's (which work paid for) to go along with it. My opinion: suck it up and go to school while working. It makes for a tough few years, but the benefits will far out-weight the costs. Just keep in mind, that you may need to switch jobs to take advantage of the extra pay potential from getting the degree.

This article may help you decide

[Anonymous Coward]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124181970915002009.html

To summarize, it basically takes a decade for a person, who starts his/her career in recession, to catchup with a person who starts his/her job during boom time.

Don't pay for your masters.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm also a computer engineering undergrad getting my degree in less than a month. From what I have heard from professors and professionals in the field is that there are plenty of opportunities to get your masters without paying for it.

Look to work for a company that would be willing to pay for your masters degree. It may take you a year or two longer because you will have to work part-time and school part-time, but you won't have to pay a nickel for it.

One of my professors went so far as to say "If you pay for your masters degree, you're an idiot."

One of my colleagues who works for the military is getting his masters tuition paid for and is going to school full-time and getting paid what he would if he were working full-time (provided he maintain a reasonable GPA). Imagine that, getting paid to go to school.

Once again, find a good employer who will invest in your education for you.

Stunned

[plague911]

I am very surprised to see all the comments saying how a masters will not earn you more money. But than again they seem to be mentioning CS degrees and IT work. The poster was speaking about a computer engineering degree. I am currently getting a masters and for my degree in electrical computer and systems engineering someone with a masters has a good 20,000 ish higher salary than in individual with only a B.S as published by my schools career development center. Even still the C.S. stats Ive seen indicate that there is still a significant differance in pay between a B.S. and a M.S. On a side note. I may recommend going for a combined PHD/MS program and just stopping when you get your MS. Doing this will potentially get you more funding in forms for a teaching assistant position or grants.

work first to get perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking from experience, having work experience post-undergrad made my graduate work all the more meaningful. I don't necessarily recommend waiting a long time like I did (8 years), but I did get a lot more out of my grad classes having had industry experience.

No bias in that recommendation...

[carlivar]

Professors in the academic bubble recommend that you stay in the academic bubble and continue to help pay their salary? Shocking.

Do Both!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a job lined up GO FOR IT! I know individuals who were turned down for jobs with Masters Degrees who would have recevied and offer without one. This is because the Government pays Master Degree holders more then on holder.

Most in my field get a job with a BA and study nights for their Masters so come pay increase or job change time they have EXPERIENCE and the Sheepskin.. Besides most companies pay for post graduate studies..

Depends where you are

[Anonymous Coward]

In the United States, a masters degree is roughly equivalent to a European bachelor's, because the education system in the US doesn't properly cover basic maths etc. at high school level, you will spend the first 1.5-2 years covering high-school type work.
If you live in Europe, you are probably employable with a bachelor's.

do both

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a decent job now, have them pay for grad school. Get a raise on their tab. You'll also get an income during the 2 years and plus the degree... if you can handle that.

I'm glad I got an MS

[beej]

I have a BS and MS in computer science, and over a decade of experience. This is for me, but it could be different for you:

When I got out of school, the cost of my MS was paid for in less than 6 months by the difference in salary. This was at HP; I would guess that most smaller companies do not differentiate that much based on degree, but it was an influential factor.

Because I stayed at the same school and got my MS straight away, I didn't have to take the GRE. This REALLY influenced my decision.

I would never expect or rely on my MS to help me get a job. In general, experience trumps your degrees. If it does help, great, but if you have an MS and don't pass the interview questions the tech guys throw at you, it's not going to matter.

The exception to the above paragraph is if you wanted to be an instructor at a junior college; in that case you generally need an MS (but requirements vary). You'll never get paid as well as an instructor (and depending on where you are, positions can be scarce), so you should only do it if you love it.

I have no regrets over that "lost" time. I learned a bunch of good stuff, and it was fun--way more fun than being an undergrad. :) I had, after all, the whole rest of my life to work.

I bounced around, out of HP to a dot-com, to a big game studio, to being an independent contractor. One thing's for sure: you never stop learning. I'm familiar with technologies that were unheard of when I was in school. It can take time to keep up with what's going on, but I can't recommend it enough!

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[Phroggy]

/o Tape monkey get up, get coffee, tape monkey go to job... o/

Tape monkey rotate last week's backups, push a button, turn a knob.

Masters to Get Married

[happy_place]

I got my masters mostly because I didn't want to leave the college social scene without first finding someone who I could marry. Once you leave school, the sort of people you meet in the professional world fall into an assortment of categories, most of which come with an ex-husband, all sorts of baggage, are married to their work, and/or have no interest in actually having a family and settling down. It's better to find a girl who's not so committed to the career that they can't make you a priority.

Go for it, but be realistic.

[LuisAnaya]

I was requested to do a 1 year masters degree as a condition on my employment. The company paid me that year to do it, and I did finish a Masters in Computer Sciences and I do not regret it. However, the following has been true for me.

• It got me a job and a nice salary bump when I started after completion, because of the conditions of my employment.
• It did not help me to get promoted later on as a manager. That takes politics. You'll be better off getting the PMP rather than a Masters, if that's what you want in life.
• It looks nice on the resume and your business card.
• It's not as relevant after several years in the industry. Oddly enough, certification gets more wight, unless you're a PhD going to Academia. It also depends where you work. For instance, if I were going to work in Puerto Rico, an EIT or PE it's more useful than a Masters, but that's because the PR job market is license crazy.
• If you do your masters mid-career does not equate a change in responsibility or salary. But, you can use it to find a new and better job being that you can create a relationship with the career center. (Sometimes, in retrospect, I should've considered that). I've known folks that the company paid for their MBA and continued performing the same job after graduation.
• You get a better sense on Academia. You learn how to work in complex projects and prepares you for research and in some cases, dissertation. That'll help you when you have to defend your design or proposal against your peers or supervisors.

I did it when I had the chance, if you're in no rush to start working, have money to pay for it and you know which area of interest you're going to pursue, go ahead and do it. Later in life it'll be harder (but not impossible).

Advanced Degrees vs. Certifications

[Gallenod]

I have two masters degrees, one of which is in IT, and I work for the Federal government.

I can't say what the environment is like in other than the Department of Defense or Department of Homeland Security, but when we get surveyed for our job qualifications we are always asked for information on specialized certifications (e.g. Project Management Professional, Contracting Officers Technical Representative, Acquisition Level 1, etc.) than can be earned or awarded through work experience or taking short training courses. No one for the last eight years has asked about advanced education.

My suspicion is that most of the people in civil service who deal with workforce management and job classificaion do not have advanced degrees and do not understand the amount of work and rigor that goes into earning a masters or PhD in relation to targeted training that fills a niche. While a PhD may get you a GS-11, a Bachelor's degree combined with a PMP Level 1 certification can get you in as a GS-13, which is a big pay and status boost.

The opposite is true in acedemia. If you don't have a PhD, don't even both applying for a college teaching job, and in some states one of the requirements to get public school tenure is to have a masters degree plus continuing education credits.

Business doesn't care as long as you can make them more money than they pay you.

Most people seem to hire people who resemble them. So, figure out where you want to work, find out how the people who run the system were trained, and get yourself trained so you look like them.

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[Anonymous Coward]

In my years of IT, I have never encountered this "glass ceiling of knowledge" that can only be surpassed by taking a Masters. Books and the Internet are plenty enough to overcome most obstacles.

Diversify

[HikingStick]

Why not pursue a M.A. in another field (e.g., business, psychology)? It will broaden your exposure and your experience, potentially making you a more attractive candidate during your job search, and potentially giving you some fall-back career options should you ever find yourself downsized or outsourced.

Beyond that, get your experience. If it's easier to get your graduate degree now, then that's great for you. If not, consider landing that job now (if you can find one) so you can start gathering some real-world experience, and go back for your graduate degree later on (while you are still working). The latter option can be especially attractive if your future employer has a tuition-reimbursement benefit.

What are you going to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big difference between getting your Master's to work in a drone position and getting your Master's and climbing the ladder. If you want to get to a higher-level job, a master's is pretty much the best thing you can do. When you go for that promotion to technical or project manager then it's going to be your degree, knowledge, and experience up against your colleagues'. A Master's degree is a great way to prove that you have a commitment to excellence in your field, but if you aren't going to use it to move around then don't get it.

I would argue that most people who say "waste of time" flat out to a Master's degree are the people that are happy with the low-level, technical positions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, but know what YOU want out of your career.

Masterfull

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are interested in a related field, a masters can be useful. If it's just the same field, probably not.
For example, a masters in Physics or Math on top of the engineering degree would make you stand out. (Or chemistry, or biology, or fine arts...)

If you want to apply your engineering to a field of interest, great. If it's just computer engineering for computer engineering's sake, then gain job experience and get a masters later. (Hopefully at employer's expense.)

Short Answer: Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Overall, yes, though you might want to consider getting a full-time job first and then get the company to pay for it through their tuition reimbursement program. Some companies will even pay 100% if you maintain a decent GPA. Once you're in the program at work, they're spending money on you and it's effectively free education and guaranteed employment for the duration. Kind of tough to beat that. During that time, you're salary increases might be smaller (added compensation by education), but you're becoming more valuable to them as well as other potential employers.

Shore Up the Weakness

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are considering a Masters, then consider one that will round-you out as an overall candidate for employment. Get an MBA or other type of business / management - even IT Management. This will show that not only do you have technical knowledge, but that you understand the requirements of a business. Employers will know that they can present a business problem to you and that you will both understand the business side of it as well as how to execute the technical side.

Depends on Area of Interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

I think a masters always looks good. Period. It shows commitment and discipline in a particular pursuit and shows you do have at least half a brain.

However, real-world experience simply can't be beat.

For example, (ISC)2 will give you one year towards your required five years of experience for their CISSP if you have a masters.

Paul Graham's essays...

[ThousandStars]

Have you read Paul Graham's essays? All of them? If not, you should: he discusses the pros and cons of CS grad school in more depth than /. contents can. When you're done with that, check out Joel on Software.

If you're not willing to read most of both sites, I'd say that your answer regarding CS grad school should be "no." Any form of grad school requires an enormous amount of reading, and the amount you should do in preparation ought to in part tell you whether you should go.

Well, this depends...

[Khyber]

"Is a masters in computer engineering better than two years of experience at a company?"

If that two years of experience is actually teaching at a company (like I taught new hires laptop repair,) it might be better than the Master's Degree, as you're already teaching in a mega-million dollar environment and you've been recognized to have the skills to be usable as an internal trainer. Looks great on the resume.

Otherwise, most companies will look for that piece of paper, and then proceed to place you in a section not relevant to your degree. What was the last figure; 70-80% of people with college degrees have a job that isn't related to their degree, or something like that? Get that Master's in Computer Science and you'll get put in Marketing.

At minimum get a Bachelor's Degree and a few certifications that you can keep up to date.

take the advice - then do what you feel is right

[Anonymous Coward]

I see in the comments that Computer Engineering has been categorized as IT, and/or Computer Science. If you got a good Computer Engineering degree then you should have had about half Electrical Engineering, and half Computer Science - which means those people are lumping you into categories when in fact you're asking opinions about life long decisions. Here are a couple of things a masters can do for you:

1. make you more marketable for job positions
2. make you less marketable for job positions because you cost too much (gets even worse with PhDs). this won't happen right away but later on in your career you can end up taking a paycut to move to a better job that you're overqualified for.
3. help you decide upon a specific area of research and development that you'd like to be involved in - i.e. what did you concentrate in while doing the degree
4. railroad you into doing that specific thing for the rest of your life (again reference the PhD comment above)
5. get you contacts!!!! this is important no matter where you go - my wife who's not in engineering uses her contacts all the time
6. prepare you for academia
7. make you disgusted with academia

There's more but I won't continue - there's two sides to every coin. If money is your concern - go to work, you're job might want you to get a masters in something else (like an mba) so why put yourself through that twice. If your concern is happiness and interest in your job then I say take everyone's advice on this forum and then do what you feel is right.

depends what you wana do after.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ever want to get into teaching at all even retiring into it or something suck it up and go immediatly for your phd. If you are not ever even remotly interested in teaching then get a job for a company willing to pay for your masters, and then do both. you can school part time for a couple of years while working full time and not have to pay for the masters at all. On top of that you will be getting very valuable work exp. also its important that you dont put off starting the masters long, the longer you wait the harder itl be to get.

It's not worth it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you've chosen Computer Engineering as your feild, you've chosen a lifetime of misery that comes along with it. Getting a Master's degree will only tie you more to your dark cruel fate.

Get your masters...

[Anonymous Coward]

In times of recession, get your masters and learn more about the field. In boom times, get a great job. Trust me, this is the determining factor you need to consider.

Many CS jobs won't tear you open a new horizon of understanding each and every year. During recession your odds of getting a "google" job is very low even if you are outstanding. So you could get your masters and then when the economy turns around, get your great job and have everything.

Depends on your situation

[etphonehome8706]

For me, getting a master's turned out to be a great decision career-wise. But I would say it depends a great deal on the specifics of your situation. Here's mine:

I graduated with a BS in computer engineering from a middle-of-the-road university. I had a decent job offer coming out of college, but not with a company I wanted to work for in the long term. I was accepted to a master's program in computer science at a top tier university, and decided to do that instead. I'm going to graduate with my MS next week.

I believe just being at a better university has opened doors for me. Last summer I was able to score an internship at a company that probably would not have given me a second look if I was an undergrad at my previous school. Now I have an offer to work as a full-time software engineer with another great company.

My pay will be slightly higher than my undergrad friends at this school who are going to that same company, but probably no higher than theirs will be after two years of experience there. If I had spent two years working at the company that gave me an offer after undergrad, would I have been able to get this same job? Maybe, maybe not. I do know that my initial salary with this company will be nearly 50% higher than the other company offered me two years ago.

In your situation, you have to consider what value will be added by going for another degree. What work opportunities are available to you now? What new opportunities will open up as a result of your master's education? How much will a master's degree cost, both in terms of tuition and lost earning potential from being out of the workforce during that time? These are all things you need to consider. There is no easy, cookie-cutter answer.

10 Years From Now

[DorkRawk]

2 years from now having 0 years real world experience and a masters compared to 2 years experience and a BS sounds like a no brainer.

10 years from now 8 years experience and a masters sounds pretty good compared to 10 years experience and a BS.

Also, let's be clear YOU SHOULD LEARN DIFFERENT THINGS FROM A MASTERS THAN WHAT YOU WOULD LEARN WORKING. The type of job you could apply for would be different.

Let's say the job you are hiring for is that of a technical lead on a distributed computing system. You have 2 candidates. One has 3 years of Java experience. One has a masters and did their thesis on distributed systems. Which candidate would you suspect would provide new high level technical ideas to the project?

Masters = the new Bachelors

[m6ack]

A masters is almost necessary in any field today. In your "free time," do some open source work & distinguish yourself as a hacker. You spend your two years doing those two things, and you will be able to write your own ticket. In any case, the economy is down; so, just do it -- it's a perfect opportunity, before you're married with kids and working 60 hour weeks...

Do it full-time only if you can get funded

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have strong English-speaking skill and decent grades, then you have a good chance to get funded as a teaching or research assistant in grad school. Poke around and talk to professors, dropping your resume and letting them know you in the market for an assistanceship.

If you get funded, you live like a student for two years more and have a master's degree. If you have no funding options other than paying for it yourself, then START WORKING and get your employer to pay for it, but it'll take a bit longer probably 3+ years part time. You'll make much more money in the long term if you work and go part time, then you can get the best of both worlds.

-7th-year grad student in electrical and computer engineering

Yes

[ronzensci]

I have a MS in Computer Science which I got in 2005. I would definitely recommend getting a MS. While you are constantly working, it doesn't look like a big deal to have a MS- but in case you ever go on a break from work a MS will stand by you in good stead. And its always better to have done a MS earlier in life than later. A good MS with diverse courses and an in-depth thesis is definitely worth more than two years in the industry. Having said that- I did my MS after working for three years in the industry after my Bachelors under-graduation in Computer Engineering. And that surely helped me pick the right courses and a thesis topic.

Get the masters

[Anonymous Coward]

Get your masters degree. Spend your summers working at internships. Most likely you won't even have to pay for graduate school (RA ship or TA ship). This gives you a leg up on the typical graduate w/ a BA because you'll have 2 more summers of internships and a documented ability to learn at a high level. Additionally, it's two more years of college. And being a graduate student in college is very fun.

-Graduating Masters Student in Mechanical Engineering with a job when he graduates

Get it now-- time gets harder to come by later!

[Anonymous Coward]

Later on in life you will almost certainly accrue responsibilities that make it harder to go back to school. Two year's experience at a job doesn't mean much-- the time's gonna fly by, so get to it now while it's relatively easy.

Work then Masters

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to go get a few years, specialize or think about specializing then go back and get it. You'll get way more out of it. I went straight from undergrad to grad school because it was paid for and I ended up being over-educated and under-experienced and without really knowing specifically what I wanted to do. I even had applicable work experience while in school and still spent a year looking for a job in '06-'07.

Only if you really want it

[Anonymous Coward]

And only if you investigate schools carefully, and talk to lots of different students in the programs you're applying to.

I got stuck in a program I hated. I loved the material, but the people ruined it for me. My performance fell, I lost my fellowship, I spend my life savings working to finish a masters, due to stress a dormant medical problem got out of control and my health fell apart, and now I'm unemployed, broke, sick, uninsured, and I wasn't able to finish my masters yet.

I still love my field of research, and once I've taken care of my looming health and debt problems, I can't wait to get back into a DIFFERENT program. I just regret I nearly lost everything because I didn't do enough due diligence on my PhD programs.

Straight to PhD?

[BrokenHalo]

I guess a lot must partly depend on your actual discipline. Here in Australia, my discipline (molecular biology or biotechnology) tends to favour jumping straight from BSc honours to PhD. Nobody is interested in watching you spend that much time ploughing through secondary research; they want you doing proper original research right now.

However, I'm aware that degrees are "rated" differently according to what country you're in: for instance a Scottish Master's degree is rated here (by Govt overseas qualifications assessment bodies) as equivalent to a Bachelor's degree. Recognition of US degrees varies a lot. So I guess the answer to the OP's question depends on whether or not he plans on staying where he is.

DO Both

[fartrader]

Get experience, get a degree part time - you might even get your employer to pay for it. Education is always good. More experience is always good. With This plan you can get both.

Do Both

[gvaness]

A lot of companies will pay the course fees for your masters. Take a class or two each semester/quarter. It takes three years instead of two, but you come out waaay ahead cost wise, get the work experience and the masters. I'm still kicking myself for not doing it my first few years working, when my only real time obligations were video games.

Work Experience First, Masters Can Follow

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a job as a programmer upon graduation, then after settling in, started a masters part-time. I quit the masters for a couple of reasons: I didn't want the time cost, but primarily I quit because I realised that what I thought was important for me to learn to be better at programming was not what the university thought was important for me to learn.

Specifically, I decided that practical skills like test-driven development and solid o-o design etc were more immediately relevant and important, and I got a better learning environment at work.

I have found that if you want to be good at programming, then you need to study constantly regardless. There is a lot to learn, and you should not stop just because you have left uni.

Also, there is a lot to be said for getting some real-world experience to guide your study direction. If you are going to invest in a masters (and it is an investment), then make sure that it will pay a good return. That means be sure you want to follow through with the implied career, and be sure that you are learning stuff that will enhance that career.

So far, not having a masters has not held me back. If one day it does, then I can address that lack then. This is not the impossible thing that people make it out to be. I know several people who have taken this route. It is hard work sure, but at least when you decide to do it you already know it will pay off. And frankly, you should have been studying off your own bat already anyway, at least if you want to be good.

Consider how you can effectively do research

[BaverBud]

I recently had to make the same decision. I had an offer to do an MS on a very interesting project, but chose to go work instead (I had a competing offer with a good position at a hardware company). The big kicker for me was: How do you do effective research in an industry you've never worked in? The majority of professors I see went BaSC->MS->PhD, and frankly, are horrible. The best professors? They've gone and worked in industry for at least a few years. And their research reflects this, and is usable. It is also worth considering that some companies will pay for you to do your master's part time. Granted, this might be an M.Eng, not an MS, but HR probably won't know the difference. This is the route I'm going. If in a few years I want an MS or MBA, I'll go back to school to get it. I don't see myself in this field in 5 years so it's less of an issue for me.

Masters of What?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want a masters, get an MBA instead. Your future and income will benefit 100x more than a Masters in some obscure field doing research that the corporate market can't/won't use for 10 years anyway.

Don't do either

[Anonymous Coward]

Both school and work are a huge waste of time.
Concentrate on growing your own food, not using fuel to get around and sharing the skills you already have with others.

Switch fields if you get another degree

[bkuhn]

I'm heavily involved in the FLOSS non-profit world. I have a Master's Degree in Computer Science that has not done all that much for me. I regret getting it.

If you don't plan to teach high school or college, then you would be better served getting a degree in another field. For example, getting an MBA or a law degree might make it possible for you to broaden the range of things you can do. (I'm against getting a law degree, but for other reasons.)

If you want to go into not-for-profit or governmental policy work in computing, getting an MPA (Master's in Public Administration) would be good.

In short, your professors want you to do what they did. Given that B.S. degrees are not as valuable as they once were, it's worthwhile to have some sort of graduate degree, but getting it in another field will expand your horizons and opportunities and also give you more perspective as a computer scientist/engineer.

Go with the master's

[olegalexandrov]

Do get your master's if you can, I am telling you that as somebody working in the industry. A master's (or a PhD) is a very distinguishing feature, while two years of experience is not. Also, two more years in school can give you (different kind of) insights and deep knowledge which two years of work can't. Having achieved a high level of education before you start a full-time job and getting family will reward you handsomely in long term.

Masters, yes

[grikdog]

Experience is non-transferable outside your own cloth-covered cubicle. That is, reputation is largely a self-inflicted delusion, because your work experience is so tightly integrated to the company you're working for that only headhunters looking for you already will be impressed — and those guys are middlemen with an even harder sell to make that you could do on your own. Your own jobhunting efforts are hard enough, especially if non-disclosure agreements prevent you from demonstrating your contributions to major projects, but with a Master's you're heavily invested in yourself, when no one else really is. That makes your postgraduate degree a nifty credential that's hard to ignore (not impossible, but hard); and even if you impress no one but your family and yourself, that confidence casts a longer shadow than your student's resume ever will.

It is hard to go back...

[Anonymous Coward]

All I will say is this. I didn't go on for my Masters and I've regretted it ever since. IMNSHO It's a lot harder to go back to school after working for a while than it is to just continue on after your Bachelors.

It's especially hard after you get married and have kids. It's not impossible but if you can do it now, I highly recommend that you DO IT!

Go to work first...

[Chruisan]

Get some experience (three to four years) under your belt before you decide to go back to school. Figure out what you want to study. Also look at what you want to accomplish after you complete your degree. You may want to do something a little different than computer engineering.
I would look at other alternatives to an MBA, especially if you find you are very technical. You may find a senior engineer is a better fit for you than a manager. I would also recommend finding a university level program instead of a quick, online program. It will look better to a hiring manager.

My experience? Get the Masters Degree.

[stonewolf]

I got a BSCS, went out and worked for a few years and saw that all the really good jobs in the company I worked for, and the companies I wanted to work for, were filled with guys with MSCS degrees.

So, I got the MSCS. And, I was able to get the jobs I wanted. Companies will hire a MS for a job that requires a BS. They will also hire an MS with experience for a job the says it requires a Ph.D.

When the world tilted sideways and I couldn't get the kind of jobs I really wanted anymore, the MS let me get jobs teaching in Junior colleges. Not bad. I took an online teaching certificate course and passed the Texas test that qualifies you to teach CS in grades 8-12, so I have that out of the way and that qualifies me as a "Highly Qualified" teacher if I ever get around to working in a high school. But, so far, I have been able to stay ahead of the bills working in junior colleges.

I'm now 56 and looking back, once I made the decision to get a CS degree, the MS was the smartest thing I ever did (except for marrying my wife :-). The only thing that I can think of that would be smarter would be to have gotten a J.D and become a lawyer.

OTOH, I had a boss who nearly cried when I decided to go to college. He kept saying I should study to be a turbine mechanic. Yah, know what? If I had I would have worked fewer hours, in better working conditions, made more money, had more freedom to choose where I wanted to live, and I most likely would be retired with a nice pension by now. And, I would still be able to get jobs as a turbine mechanic. My next door neighbor is my age and is a retired turbine mechanic...

Stonewolf

And would it be okay if I added a segue?

[Gramie2]

Not to be pedantic, but I feel like being pedantic!

Re:And would it be okay if I added a segue?

[wonkavader]

Doh! You're absolutely right!

It's about Math!

[mizzle]

I think someone else might have mentioned this already:

Facts:
- Tuition always go up.
- You'll earn your least amount of $$$ during the first few years of your career. Think about your hourly wage.
- In 10~15 yrs, when you get to middle or senior management, it may be difficult in managing people with more advanced degrees than you do.

Conclusion:
- Pay the lowest tuition while your hourly wage is still low. You'll lose out a lot more if you delay getting the degree (higher tuition and you will be spending higher waged hours studying).
- Master degree helps you in the long term to rid of any doubt of your ability/credential

Personal note:
As someone who has worked in the industry for almost 20 years around the world, I can tell you a good number of you future bosses/clients will *care* what degree you have and which university you got it from. The extra 2~3 years of junior level work experience in place of a degree will not gain you any favor on your resume.

Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

Get it done with,

[McSnarf]

Want to be a code monkey when you are 50?
Cram as much formal education into the part of life where it is easiest.

You'll have to study all your life. In addition to your day job. So get a head start, get something that looks good on a job application and will pay for itself. Then concentrate on stuff you WANT to learn or NEED to learn for the rest of your life - because a lot of the stuff you are just learning will be utterly meaningless in 20 years time.

So... While work experience might be OK and most things you are going to learn will be obsolete rather quickly, a good choice of topics will allow you to have a better foundation later on.

That means theory and useless-looking stuff. OSI layers instead of HTTP implementation details. Knuth instead of C++ for Dummies. And Knuth is still very much a practical guy. :)

You are unlikely to spend much time on theory after starting to work. So concentrate on it now, while you can.

Do a few years in industry first.

[Anonymous Coward]

My advice (having just finished my Masters after working for 3 years after undergrad) is to work for a few years and then go back.

It's a good idea because:
* You get a good idea of what the day to day of being a software developer is like.
* You may get to branch out on the areas you get to work with before you decide which area you want to focus on in your Masters (I got to do databases, networking, and several other topics that weren't covered in depth in school).
* You will become a better coder. There is no replacing sitting down and designing, writing, and debugging code for 40-60 hours a week for 2 or 3 years.

The answer is obvious...

[Byzandula]

Chance for computer engineer to have a sexual encounter based on location:

porn studio: 18%
university campus: 17%
workplace: 3.3%

Hell no. Don't go back just for the M.Sc.

[Niet3sche]

If you can get an entry-level position, go to work. A M.Sc. in CS will get you nowhere. The Ph.D. is the next "stepping stone," and that will open up new doors for you. So unless you're wanting to go all the way to a Ph.D., don't bother going back. Academia sucks and is full of all sorts of social cues that are distressing, misleading, petty and small.

Earn 31% more with advanced degree : US Census

[mazda_corolla]

Quote:
"median earnings for an
advanced degree were 31 percent
higher than earnings for a bachelors degree" - US Census report

High school or more : $26,894 / yr
Some college or more: $32,874 / yr
Bachelor's or more : $46,805 / yr
Advanced degree : $61,287 / yr

Also, looking at the overall education level of the US:

High school or more : 84%
Some college or more: 54%
Bachelor's or more : 27%
Advanced degree : 10%

So, do you want to be part of the 10% group, or the 27% group?

Reference:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p20-560.pdf
"Educational Attainment in the United States: 2007", pg 10

Yes, I know that this doesn't differentiate between master's and PHD, but I think the point is still valid : advanced degrees earn more.

I received my masters in 1995, and I'm very happy that I did. It gives me an extra certification that I'll have for the rest of my life - it helps provide a differentiator in the marketplace, and at many companies, your education level goes into a formula that determines pay raises and salary caps.

So it doesn't just come into play at the salary cap - it can definitely affect your annual raises.

Is it a magic bullet - no. But it sure doesn't hurt.

I also completely agree that a PhD doesn't make sense if you are primarily interested in maximizing your earnings.

And remember, you will NEVER have an easier time getting a masters than right now.

- you are already in 'academic' mode from your undergrad
- you are used to having no money and living like a student
- you don't have the the larger cost basis of modern life (car, house, kids)

While yes, it is possible to go back to school and get a masters later, it is 100 times harder.
You either need to find an employer that will sponsor you + work double hours (work + school), or you have to self-sponsor.

If you self-sponsor and take a year off work to get your masters, you are losing a year of salary + tuition + books + living expenses = $100k + easy.

That gets _reeeeaaallly_ hard to justify.

Absolutely Work First.

[SlySpy007]

Getting work experience will help you realize what is important and why. I'm in the midst of a masters in CS, 5 years out of undergrad. I'm amazed at how clueless most of the other students are. Having the work experience will make the experience of returning to school that much more enriching for you. The best option is to work for a few years, save some money, then go back to school and bang out the masters in a few semesters. My only complaint is that I didn't plan very well and can't just drop my job right now (plus have too miuch responsibility at work). Plan for it and you won't be disappointed.

On balance, I'd say do it

[taradfong]

Maybe it will be useless. Maybe you'll switch careers. Maybe you'd make more money working now than the increased pay later. Heck, in my case, I don't even have a bachelor's in CS and I do pretty well.

On the other hand, after a certain age it gets a lot harder to go back. Your time is suddenly spoken for by family, career, etc. Why take 3-4 years to finish part time at 2012 tuitions when you can knock it out in 1-2 years now?

I wouldn't do it

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not worth getting a Masters in IT unless you are going for executive management. Even then I have yet to see people at that level with that type of degree. Go for your certifications if you are after the money. You will make more with current certifications than a degree!

Get it

[can'tthinkofagoodnic]

I notice you say Computer Engineering, not EE or CS. To me, this means you're probably interested in digital design or something similar. If so, definitely get the Master's degree.

I work in a microprocessor design group and we won't even interview someone without a master's degree anymore. 90% of what I learned in school that I apply to my job, I learned in grad school. Grad school teaches exactly what you need to know to do the job in our group, so we don't have to teach you much before you can get started working with us.

So it's not so much that you should do it for money as just the ability to get a job in the field you want. Plus in 1-2 years maybe the job market will be better.

The degree opens doors even if you learn nothing.

[w3woody]

It used to be, perhaps 10 years ago, that developers were hard to come by. Any fool who could write code could get a great development job even if he didn't have a degree. Some folks were being hired without even a HS diploma.

The industry has matured significantly since then.

Right now when I look around at the software architects and principal engineers at various companies in Los Angeles, I see the majority of them have Masters or even Ph.D.s. There are quite a few job opportunities where the job description strongly recommends a masters degree--and in quite a few places where I've done interviews, I've had my boss tell me that person was highly recommended because he had a masters or a Ph.D.

In my opinion, (1) a masters is not worth two years of experience, if you're interested in getting your hands dirty and learning real-world stuff. But (2) a masters will open more doors for you. A Ph.D. will open even more doors.

Used to be the industry was such that simple merit would allow you to work your way up the ladder. Now, you need a degree if you are going to go beyond certain boundaries, regardless of whatever talent and experience you may have.

What a shock

[javamann]

And my barber said I need a haircut, what were the odds?

What's your aim?

[Stephan Schulz]

What do you mean by "better"? It's better to go for a Master's, and then for a Ph.D. You will learn more and different things, and you will have a great time. This may or may not translate to a better salary later on. But at least for me, a deeper understanding of the subject is very satisfying on its own.

Master's needed? Not in my case...

[Audiophyle]

This was not the case for me. I got my B.A. in mathematics from a small school and was hired by an aerospace company to operations in an entry-level, but well-paying job. I showed some initiative and moved up the ladder and became a satellite engineer within a few years, and I continue to progress. Most of my colleagues have a Master's in aerospace, but I was able to get there without having an undergraduate in engineering, let alone a Master's (my math degree had a completely theoretical emphasis, even). On top of this I have a better understanding of the business now since I moved up the ranks a little bit over the years.

There are a few engineering classes that I wouldn't mind taking at this point for my own enrichment, but I think a Master's would be overkill for me.

Nowadays, I would never say to someone that a Master's degree is essential to arrive at the job he or she wants. It just takes a bit of hard work and a little luck.

Like everything in life, it depends

[jeff4747]

Why back in my day....

Ok, I'll cut the old fogey schtick.

To broadly over-generalize, a Masters in CS will let you skip over the first 2-5 years of your career.

Whether this makes economic sense is going to depend on just how fast you can get that masters, and how much it will cost you.

Beyond about 5 years, work experience becomes far more important than degrees. Which means this is a "do it now or skip it" kind of thing. Going back for a Masters in CS after you've got several years under your belt isn't going to help all that much. (The common exception being getting a Masters in CS when you don't have a BS in CS to aid getting through the HR filter. It helps more than for those with a CS degree, but again not all that much.)

That being said, it's not exactly a wonderful job market out there at the moment. So delaying your entry into the job market until you've got a Masters may be a good idea. This is gonna depend on the job market where you want to live.

Take the job if you've got an offer...

[sfjohnson]

My son is graduating next week with a Bachelor's degree in bioengineering. I would have suggested that he go on for a Master's, except that he got a job offer with a prominent company in his field that will contribute substantially to tuition for grad school. At that point, and in these financial conditions, he agreed that he should take the job and pursue the Master's while there.

Personally, I went immediately from undergrad (physics/math) to a master's program (CS/EE) both to dig a little deeper and to optimize my chances at Member of Technical Staff jobs with my then ideal employers, Bell Labs and Hewlett-Packard. Got offers from both!

Re:How many times are we going to hear this questi

[Anonymous Coward]

Too true.

The questions are the same and the answers are just as mechanical. If /. ever put out a FAQ, these types of questions should lead the list.

I have to admit I howl w/laughter at some of the career advice given here. People, if you are not earning over USD120K/annum then you suck and only serve as a bad career example. Yes, only money counts and if you aren't old enough to know better than you should also STFU.

No

[mosb1000]

Nothing looks better to your employer than actual work experience. Think about it this way: if you were hiring a programmer, would you rather hire someone with two years experience, or someone with no experience but a master's degree? Someone with a proven track record is a safer bet, and the employers that stay in business usually play it safe.

Take the govt contracting approach

[Anonymous Coward]

The Govt will pay, per hour XXX for someone with 10 years experience. If you have an MS, then they consider you to have +2 years XP for pricing purposes.

If it takes you 2 years to get the degree and you earn no extra, then you actually LOSE money by paying for school. That's the Math of it

I have an MS in CS and I can tell you from first hand, for the most part, no one cares at all; particularly contractors.

I hear rumors, and only that, that it matters when you are going for management. The most important thing to consider: Do you want an MS? some MS degrees are seriously the BS classes with a research paper; woot! And, most people cop-out with their MS and take a final test rather than do research.

Bottom line: You won't earn any extra money or prestige. So if you do it, do it only for yourself.

posting as anonymous sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I have a good answer for you. I graduated in Computer Science and I've been considering getting my masters for sometime. A lot of my friends started going for their masters while I got a job after interning for a science facility. Immediately I got the standard wage for a computer science bachelor. I made sure that was I was getting paid was competitive and reasonable so that if I were to move on to another company they would offer me something competitive.
My friends worked at the same company as master's students getting paid dump wages. At the same time the company I worked for offered me a 70% pay for any masters classes I wanted to take. I took a course and in the meantime moved to another company that offered me more money the next summer. By the time my friends graduated with their masters companies didn't want them because they had no serious work experience and they all took some seriously bad pay cuts. They also were in more dept because of school.

Your professor is going to tell you to stay in school, because that means he can make more money off of you. In a field like computer engineering (seriously IS majors go back to school and pass calculus so you'll make some money) the demand for you is really high. What causes a lot of confusion with people wanting to get their masters are friends that have other majors that require a masters in order for them to be worth anything and even then they have a hard time getting a job.

The best advice for you is consider getting your masters, but first get a job that you enjoy for the time and pay. (Don't work for bloodsucker companies, there are plenty of chill engineering jobs). Then find out what programs the company offers for people that desire to get their masters . The job I currently work at is better than the last in that if I get an A in a course I get a full reimbursment, B->half, C->25%.

Also ask yourself why you even want to get your masters because you won't be worth more money. If you intend to get your PHD and teach one day then get your masters. I also want to point out that a lot of professors in school are outdated. One of my masters courses we had a masters student teaching because he was the only one in the department who knew python. You make more money in engineering by being on the edge of technology and knowing what's new and catching on. Thanks for listening, I'll keep an eye on this post if there are other questions.

Why?

[swordgeek]

You have to ask yourself why you would consider going for a master's degree.

Faster career advancement? Or different opportunities? A Master's may get you to places that you can't get without it (and a PhD definitely can), but do you want to go to those places? If so, it's a great thing. Research tends heavily towards MSc and PhD types.

If you're planning on being a 'normal' tech geek (developer, sysadmin, web coder, etc. etc.), then the work experience is probably far more valuable. In fact, I think that most computing jobs would be better met by a technologist diploma rather than a computing degree.

Yes! After 6 yrs of working, I am going for one.

[mrcharliebrown]

Out of college, I worked 6 years at a small business contractor for the DoD. I still like my job and love the interesting work. A Master's degree will help me win more proposals for my company, and give me more opportunities to do more interesting work as a Principal Investigator. My employer is supportive and is letting me take a leave of absence. So it's a win-win from my perspective.

Get your masters fast

[imgod2u]

In this current economy, it's best to stay in school. There are jobs out there, but the competition is tighter. It's the perfect time to buckle down and get that extra education in. Of course you can learn on your own while you have a job. But it's far more convenient to get a TA position and not have to worry about spending hours reading texts and white papers and figuring out things on your own on top of working.

After 2-5 years, the difference an MSE will make vs just a BSE is quite minimal. But that assumes you land your first job. If you have no work experience, an MSE will go a long way towards helping you get that first job. What's far more important is that you start interning now. Part-time work at a company -- if you're in any way competent -- will most likely lead to a job offer before you even graduate. They may even pay for your MSE if you decide to work part-time there.

Of course, the primary concern is your specialty. Picking something you're really good at and understand intuitively where others struggle can be the single-most important thing to standing out and becoming "the guy". It's also the single-most important factor to getting raises early on.

Masters

[Anonymous Coward]

I've you're motivated and have big plans to develope new technologies (basically write your own code or start your own company), no need for a Masters. If you just want to find someone else to work for and work your way-up in their organization, get your Masters.

That is in rubbish companies.

[jotaeleemeese]

In good companies the IT people write the requirements and internal company policy grants HR a minor role in the hiring process, they have to adhere to the wishes of the respective department when looking for candidates.

In my anecdotal experience, field expertise triumphed education almost always.

GED?

[Frightened_Turtle]

Too often, I get the impression from employers that they seem to feel that any kid with a high school diploma and a Microsoft Certification in Office is sufficient enough experience to be a system administrator or software developer. Worse, there is also a lot of pressure that a professional should be paid at the same level as a high school graduate with a Certification in Office.

In one company, the CEO was convinced that his staff could put together a professional web site with an online store for the company using a consumer-level automatic web site generating program. Then he blasted his staff, because the web site didn't work like eBay or the Apple Store.

It gets better!

He was upset that the pictures on the site looked lousy compared to other companies' web sites. That's because he gave a cheap, 2.5MP camera to some engineers and told them to take pictures of the products. Companies like Apple hire photo studios to image their products. Then he really got worked up when deadlines started slipping. That's because he had his engineers and developers working on the web site instead of actually working on finishing product and software development! He started complaining that he was going to let some people go for "incompetence". One of his comments was that he could hire a high school student to do this work. He didn't really get the opportunity to fire anyone, though, because most of the development staff got fed up with him and walked out!

But you have no real word experience.

[jotaeleemeese]

No offence, but how would you react if somebody told you that your company is losing $10000000 *an hour* because something you are responsible for just broke?

There is no amount of PhDidgery that can teach you to deal with such a situation (unless you are really lucky, but it is rare that PhD and Masters students will be ever faced with such situations).

When people talk about companies prefering experience to academic qualifications this is the kind of things they refer to, not necessarily the technical or cutting edge aspects of any given field.

You can take useful Masters once you've experience

[jotaeleemeese]

Something that nobody seems to have mentioned is that you get a better perspective of the field once you get work experience.

Once you are an experienced professional then you can judge much better if a Masters will be of any use and which one would be the one to pursue.

Get it if you want to learn more

[1,$d]

Suggestions, if you care about the code you will write in your career:

1) Figure out whether you're learning deep CS fundamentals in your undergrad program. A good Masters program will teach you CS fundamentals that make you a better software engineer in a real job. Some undergrad programs don't do that, and knowing the difference should help you decide.

2) Research (really research) the curricula at some graduate programs. They differ. You can probably tell if any of them sound like you'd learn a lot.

3) If you target the Masters degree, GET IT FAST. Make it a goal to finish the degree and start using it. Do as much programming as possible during the degree program, so you're ready to code for real. Use it as a powerup.

Any advices on my case?

[niniogolem]

I'm a electronics engineering bachelor, and though I consider myself well qualified to the local standards, I haven't been able to find a good job. I am right now considering taking a second degree on computer sciences and go for a master's after that. I'd like to go for a master degree right now but I think that while I may be well for a third world country in South America, I'm not good enough for Developed countries' competition on the same fields.

Do you have an alternative?

[adavies42]

I got my master's (CS, after a Comp. E. BS) strictly out of economic necessity--it was 2003, and there were no jobs to be had. The length of time it takes to get a master's correlates nicely with the average length of a recession.

Up to you

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's up to you. If you have some project you'd like to get a chance to work on, want to really dig into something then you should get a masters. I wouldn't do it for purely economic reasons though. I mean, look at these comments, it basically is a wash. Some places limit people without a masters, some won't even higher someone WITH a masters as being too uppity.

Do yourself a favor and.

[Anonymous Coward]

get as far from this field of endeavor as possible. No job sucks more, is less rewarding, makes you work harder for your money. Go do something worth doing. Being a fucking drone in cube is the worst hell a person can subject themselves to. The only thing worse is spending 6 years in school for the privilege.

Learn to play an instrument, act, sell sex or drugs. Hell run for office. If the current set of morons can get elected anyone can. Whatever it is it will be better than a job in engineering in this fucked up country!!

Re:Work Experience, then your masters.

[0100010001010011]

IT is not Mechanical Engineering.

Do what you love

[iliketrash]

Do what you love.

When, not if

[john82]

You do want to get your Master's. The real question is when. At one end is the time it may take to get a handle on what you want to do in your career. That usually requires some work experience. At the other end of the timeline is the date you start to work. The longer you are out of school, the harder you'll find it to get an advanced technical degree.

Masters and Work...Do Both!

[PopCultureDiva]

If you are young and don't have a family, I would recommend trying to work and get a master's degree at the same time, especially if you can find a job that will pay you educational benefits. If you study a field you like, it won't be so rough. It's certainly not easy, but you can stretch out a master's degree over 2-3 years. Most semesters I took one class at a time, but occasionally I took two.

Short Answer: Yes. Here's why.

[CaspianHiro]

In a year, when you graduate, the economy will still be emerging from this recession. The worst will be behind us, but there will still be plenty of time to find a great job. With a Masters Degree, your first job should be much better than the job you would have spent the last two years doing. And those first jobs are bullshit anyway. Phone support, desk side support, crappy web design, jr. developer, etc. With a Masters, the company that hires you will want you doing something useful. Your experience and reponsibility will be greater and advancement up the ranks better. To those telling you to make sure you can use it, I say, pshaw. At the end of the day, 10 years after you graduate, no one will care if you have 10 years experience or 12, but they will ALWAYS care that you have the Masters degree.

It's not about experience.

[CaspianHiro]

The real question is, do you want to make more money, or maybe make yourself more useful? If you want to make more money, GET THE MASTERS NOW. Once you get out in the real world, you will NEVER go back. Some do, but 99% do not. Also, if you will be graduating in a year, we will just be coming out of this recession. Wait one more year, and you will likely see people hiring for real, with signing bonuses and more, especially for people with advanced degrees. You will be in short supply, and in the REAL WORLD(tm) that is always the place to be.

It's REAL simple, your BS will only open a door...

[cloudance]

But its your WORK experience that gets you THROUGH that door. I've been in this industry for almost 25 years... no, I'm not that old... I started as a Software Engineer at Intel when I was a Senior in HIGH SCHOOL. I already had almost 4 years of part time experience in Software when I got that job. Did my BSCS-EE get me any jobs? Nope. By the time my fellow high school alums got into the workforce, I was making at least twice what they could get coming out of college. When I've hired (and I was in a hiring role when my compatriots got into the job market) A degree would get you past my HR or Recruiter, but it took experience to get past me.

On the other hand... you SHOULD get a masters... and do it part time while you're working in the industry. But get an MBA. THAT will help your career enormously one day. but it'll be a dozen or so years before that'll pay for itself.

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a glut of first-degree-only people out there. Your first job at a company may be doing anti-virus work, or other menial "he has no experience, therefore useless" chores. Getting a masters will only put that sort of crap off, but at least you will get better (less crappy) crap work as you start the work world. Over time, your 'top end salary' will also shoot farther than first-degree-only people.

Worth it, but not now

[algoa456]

A masters is useful if you want to eventually have a senior role - architect, development manager, CIO etc. Not because it helps much from a technical point of view, but because it helps to separate you from the crowd. But why not work for a year or two to find out whether CS is what you want to do? Then come back to do a masters or if you are that way inclined an MBA. (I am a VP of Product Development who encouraged his son to go into a different field. IT/SW/CS is now a vocation - you do it for the love of the profession - not the easy money it used to be)

Depends on what you're mastering...

[cybscryb]

Get some experience if you're serious about making a corporate career. That way, you'll know what your strengths and interests are and can focus your masters in those areas. If you have management skills, you can double your degrees with an MBA and a Masters in your area of specialty. If you're never planning on leaving the academic environment, then you'll want the Masters as a step on the path to a Ph.D.

MBA, perhaps

[t2000kw]

An MBA might qualify you for management in your field, and it also gives you a parachute to use if you either don't like the field or find yourself out of work. Also, there are 17 month MBA programs available. I got mine at Franklin University, Columbus, OH, in 17 months with one evening class per week and a fair amount of homework, mostly essay writing and group projects. I spent at least a few hours one evening a week for homework, sometimes on two evenings. Most group work was done by email. Most of the time I was the editor of the group papers to pull it all together so that it appeared to be written int he same style by the same person (which helps get a better grade than something that is hastily thrown together and doesn't transition well between the contributed parts).

Be aware that with a master's degree of any sort, you should expect to see more group work, something that I didn't care for since the group can pull you down and some might use the group to try to get a free ride with their work. If that latter thing happens, make sure that the instructor knows about it, make up for that person's lack of contribution to the project, and move on. That way the group is less likely to take a hit on the grade, but someone must make up for the slacker.

Also, don't expect a master's degree to make a big entry level salary. But it should get you more respect from interviewers and probably a somewhat higher salary over what you would get without one. If you get an MBA, you can work into your career interviews that you would like to get into management eventually once you have proven yourself to your superiors.

One other thing I would mention if you have any elective credits to earn yet is to look into experiential learning credits. I earned about a year's worth of college credits in my undergrad work that way and it didn't cost me anything but the effort to document my experiential learning. I got into a routine where I could crank out one documentation "booklet" in a day or two and get 3 credit hours for the work, even a course waiver if it was for one of my required subjects. I got out of a lot of schooling by doing that!!!

Donald

Work & PT MBA

[mathman47]

I have a BS in math. While working I went nights to get an MBA in Operations Research. Picked up all the business courses that a math undergrad doesn't get. BTW, never did use the Operations Research much. Just knew I could get a lot of computer science and math that I could get good grades in. Check around for CS specialties in the MBA programs.

And as someone who doesn't work at a university...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was development manager before becoming an independent consultant. For the most part a master's degree meant very, very little in the hiring process. If we were looking for entry level it was a matter of passing a basic technical test and interviewing well. If we were looking for senior it was work-experience centric.

In our limited set of hires that approach was justified. We hired both a masters and a bachelors directly out of college. The bachelor performed better in the interview and went on to perform better in the job.

If you're looking to make more money think MBA, sadly.

If you need to ask, just go flip burgers!

[LostMyBeaver]

Seriously, in today's economy where you have tens of thousands of unemployed job candidates with masters and 3-10 years work experience hunting for jobs and beginning to settle for lower level, lower paid positions just to feed themselves, a masters and a Ph.D. is a very good idea, if for no other reason but to delay your entry into the job market.

Besides, 2 years work experience on a bachelors and 2 years work experience on a high school diploma is the same. This is really your only chance you'll ever have in life to get the masters and it will make a huge difference later on when you want to move up the corporate ladder.

The masters might not help you today, but it will in 10-15 years.

If you have the option to get a masters degree now and you're not jumping at the opportunity, you should just drop out and flip burgers instead.

Re:Only both with an MSc if you're going for your

[elnyka]

Bullshit. Your company is not representative of the industry as a whole. A masters is what you make it up to be. You can make your masters in esoteric theoretical crap, or, say, in enterprise computing in close colaboration with a local company (.ie. a large financial company or hospital) that is funding your research.

As I've said it many times, it's been my graduate studies (funded in part by a large local hospital on advanced security topics on distributed systems for medical records) that got me two of my jobs (one in a medical-related start up, and another one in a large multinational bank.)

It was also the fact that had grad studies that I got hired for a job to implement a custom network protocol from scratch (which wasn't really rocket science, but it was my credentials that got me the gig.)

Again and again for the last decade, it's been my grad studies that have helped me 1) get a job, and 2) apply my grad studies to the job at hand.

A masters is what you make it out to be. You are a good or terrible software developer with or without it.

HOWTO Get your masters

[AP31R0N]

Get a full time job at a university. Plunder the employee benefits. i'm about to start at a very expensive school for 100$ a credit.

Education -- a gift for life

[lsatenstein]

Technology changes, and eventually you will enter a branch that demands specialisation. That may serve you well for 15 - 20 years, when you will discover that your obsolete. Technology advanced faster then you could keep up. Get a degree. Get an Masters and even an MBA. Actually, become a doctor-- a job for life. I am around 50, and considered over the hill, and I have a masters in math. Too expensive they say, or too old. Am I bitter. No, because I should have started my own business.

grad school is more fun

[mr_java66]

I had more fun in grad school than undergrad. I guess the fact that I had a BS to fall back on. 2 more years to live and have fun. do it.

Easy Answer

[nicomp]

Pragmatic answer: check the pay scales for MS vs BS. Also amortize the two years lost salary while still in school. Emotional answer: consider the source. Slashdot responses will be evenly split. Those who have Master's will endorse it. Those who stopped at BS will poo poo it. Fatherly Advice: make sure you like school and remember that grad school is a different world. It's more research-oriented than undergrad studies.

foreign

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to work in a foreign country, find out what the job market there requires. It's much easier to get a CS job in Germany with a masters because they are all about the papers/certificates.

Seriously, a person fresh out of grad school in a subject is much more desireable than someone with a bachelor and proven work experience in the same subject.

Frustrating, but true.

Graduate Assistant-Research, Study, Work, Free!!!!

[rickbodey]

Go for the Masters but be sure to apply for a Graduate Assistant Position with one of the lead professors at your University.

This will sky rocket your career and allow for a mentoring session after your undergraduate degree. Although many are lucky to have this in their work life, very few positions is a mentor guaranteed. Most of the time these Professors are in Education for a reason and have excellent contacts in Industry. With the Economy as it is now, getting a full ride to Graduate School while having a built in Mentor, and doing research in a field you enjoy is a win win. Also look to the advantage to starting right away, some of your course work may be waived and adds to the ROI of time invested now vs later.

This was a no brainer for me in the same position

Richard Bodey
Web Development | Networking | Security | Admin
http://www.wkntech.com/
RickBodey@WKnTech.com

Results from Ask Slashdot...inconclusive..

[tallpaul]

The responses I'm reading rather evenly fall on both sides for the same reasons!

* Get your Masters you will:
* be hired more readily - companies look for people with degrees.
* be paid more when you are hired for a net $ win

* Don't get your Masters, get a job you will:
* be hired more readily - companies assume people with Masters want to be paid more and screen them out.
* make 2 years of income which will more than offset the cost of grad school plus any increase in pay you might get

This isn't terribly surprising - any one person on /. has only worked for or been exposed to the hiring practices of a relatively small number of companies, even if they've been changing jobs for at the average tech rate (?) of 3 years or something.

The conclusion you should draw from this is:
* when you go to work, either way apply to lots of companies! Some might screen you out because you have a Masters or because you don't!
* salary probably has a lot more to do with your negotation skills, location, job market etc.

I have some other things for you to consider, given how open you left the question: "which is better?"

Obviously your professors think you should stay in school. After all - they all did, didn't they? It worked out for them. And they might have some non-obvious stake in you sticking around too.

Well, what do you mean by better? This is a pretty personal decision. Perhaps "make more money (immediately or in total)" isn't your deciding factor.

How much do you like your field? Many responses seemed to assume that you wanted to get a career as a sysadmin/network admin, which wouldn't match your degree (not that it matches any degrees really). Do you want to get a fair bit more depth in a more narrow subject area in your field of study? If you are unsure about your field, you should probably get out and work!

Consider that once you are working full time, it will be a LOT harder to go back to school even part time, even if you work for a company that pays for all of it. This will get even harder if you get married or have kids.

Maybe you are already in a serious relationship or have kids? That should drive you pretty solidly towards "get a job."

How much do you care about -where- you work? Do you want to work for a specific company or range of companies? Maybe do a straw poll of the company or companies you are interested in, and see if THEY prefer an advanced degree. In computer engineering you might want to go work for HP, Intel, AMD or IBM - in which case a PhD might not be out of the question. And you might even get paid accordingly.

How much did you pay for your undergrad? If you got a fancy degree from Caltech or MIT at $50k/yr you are going to have a hard time "upping" that with a Masters. On the other hand if you went to a "low end" school (this is by your field mind you! An affordable state school could have an excellent rep for your field) AND you have excellent grades it might be wise to try for an MIT Masters to top it off.

What is your funding situation? Would you be paying your way (or would someone else pay it for you?) or would you need to be a TA/RA? Obviously if you've got someone lined up to pay it for you that weighs pretty heavily in the "yes do it" side!

Interested in starting your own business? How does the degree factor into that? Timing - would a 2 year delay help or hurt? Funding - would the money you spend on your degree impact your ability to start the business? Or are you one of "those" people who find grad school the perfect environment in which to start a startup?

Some mentioned teaching - but I didn't see much mention of mention teaching college. I'm guessing since you didn't mention it that teaching high school is not under consideration or you'd be looking at the well-covered Education degree. Teaching college doesn't necessarily mean full time. Increasingly colleges are hiring adjunct facult