Slashdot Mirror
Easing the Job of Family Tech Support?
DarkDevil writes "Ever since I was introduced to computers at a very young age, I've been the resident tech support for a household of 7 users. I've been in a cycle for the last ~8 years where something happens to my parents' computer, I spend a week or two trying to non-destructively fix the problem (and try to explain to the users what caused it and how to avoid it), and then if it's not easily fixed I'll reformat and start from scratch. Most often, the level of infection warrants a reformat, which usually ends up taking even more time to get the computer back to how my parents know how to use it. 4-8 months later, it happens again. Recently, I found ~380 instances of malware and 6 viruses. I only realized something was wrong with their computer after it slowed down the entire network whenever anyone used it. My question for Slashdot is: are there any resources out there that explain computer viruses, malware, adware, and general safe computer practices to non-technical people in an easy-to-digest format? The security flaws in my house are 9, 26, and ~50 years old, with no technical background aside from surfing the internet. Something in video format would be ideal as they are perfectly happy with our current arrangement and so it'll be hard to get them reading pages and pages of technical papers."
People use something they don't understand...Or just don't want to know how to...
Try MS SteadyState
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/sharedaccess/default.mspx
get them all macs
> no technical background aside from surfing the internet Sounds like a perfect audience for an OS with fewer security flaws.
bomb the us up set someone
problem solved.. at least until linux malware becomes prevalent
In b4 posts
Three offences, and the whole family is off the net.
Seriously. I had similar issues and now have both my parents converted over to being happy Apple users. My support time has dropped to a truly negligible amount, and they're happier as well. It may sound facetious, but prevention works far better than education when those concerned have no interest in learning.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
I wouldn't bother trying to explain it, because they don't care. You'll fix it for them and that's enough. First you need to stop/reduce your fixing effort.
I keep sticking a knife into my eye every three months. Can anyone provide detail instructions on how I can do this without causing so much pain?
Sometimes giving an answer to the asked question isn't appropriate. Sometimes you have to tell the asker that they are looking at it all wrong.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
It's not so difficult, really. Install Ubuntu 9.10. Problem solved.
Seriously. Is there anything they wouldn't be able to do on Linux or BSD or OS X? If not, then tell them if they don't switch their OS you won't be able to help them any more. That would solve the problem handily, at least for the foreseeable future.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/virus.htm That should give them an idea. It also includes a video about trojan horses. :)
If you revoke their admin rights and keep their software (acrobat, flash, java, windows) patches up to date you will reduce your clean up burden. But it comes at the cost of a maintenance burden. Pick your poison.
1. Reformat Computers
2. Setup Restricted Accounts
3. Win
I've found the best thing is to treat them like a corporation. Make sure their accounts are only user level, and either hold on to the Administrator password or make sure they know the real reason to use it. Done that with a few family friends I do work for and the amount of trouble i've had has dropped drastically.
------
"And may your days be long upon the earth."
An insight into Mentoring & coaching
One day a man finds a cocoon for a butterfly with a small opening, he sits and watches the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through the little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared stuck.
The man decided to help the butterfly and with a pair of scissors he cut open the cocoon. The butterfly emerges easily, but something was strange. The butterfly had a swollen body and shrivelled wings. The man watched the butterfly expecting it to take on its correct proportions. But nothing changed.
The butterfly stayed the same. It was never able to fly. In his kindness and haste the man did not realise that the butterfly's struggle to get through the small opening of the cocoon is nature's way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings so that it would be ready for flight.
Like the sapling which grows strong from being buffeted by the wind, in life we all need to struggle sometimes to make us strong.
When we coach others it is helpful to recognize when people need to do things for themselves.
Put them on user accounts on linux, vista, or windows 7. Do not give them admin passwords.
Learn how to use combofix and malwarebytes, so you don't have to keep re-installing after infection.
I've had that same role for years, and the best way to not make it a nuciance is to do things right the first time.
AVG Free, SpyBot (and setup auto-updates/scans for it), setup windows Updates.
I have 11 family members I support, no issues, and they range from 6 to 60 in age.
I have the same setup for my traveling sales folks at work too, AVG Network Edition, Spybot, Forced windows updates. Never had a problem. Stop complaining and do the task correctly.
I solved my tech support problems simply. I told my family, if they wanted me to fix their problems, they had to agree to a few things:
(1) I am admin on their machines.
(2) They are peons on their machines.
(3) ???
(4) Malware problem solved.
(5) Profit!
Install Firefox with Adblock, remove their administrative rights, set PCs to auto patch, your/their malware problems are solved. When they need to install new software, I do it for them, it's worth the hassle instead of constantly cleaning up viruses.
Can you explain to them what's wrong? No.
Here's what you do if they insist on windows, install firefox, take the internet explorer icon off the desktop and set firefox to default.
Install some antivirus software and anti malware.
Image the computer in a working state as they like it.
_Take off administrator power from their hands_
Now if they manage to screw it up still, you can just use the image to restore.
Btw, if they're frustrated enough, just let them try ubuntu though I think that may not be an option since it actually takes you a while to set windows up the way they like it, probably dependent on proprietary stuff.
Get them a membership, and they won't have to look for it elsewhere.
Tell them that they either need to pay for service or let you admin the machine in a way that may limit some of their activities. Don't let them run code that wasn't installed by you. Don't let them use tools that process foreign data that have bad security designs or bad security track records.
I have systematically made all my family members get Macs over the years and this has reduced requirements for my support services to near to nothing. I have tried a few on Linux and that helped but they tended to be the most technically literate. Others who insisted that Windows was all they could use got XP with non-administrator accounts and I would remote desktop in as needed. That worked pretty well but not as well as a Mac and that person (my wife's 92 year old grandmother) is about to get a Mac mini.
I can't understand why you have people who only want to do basic tasks with anything other than an non-admin account? Even on a Mac I reserve the admin rights for myself.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
In my experience, it is not an issue of easy-to-digest material, and explanations that they understand. It's a hard mental block. I've been in the same cycle for 10+ years, and my parents have said, flat out, they they "just can't learn". I've tried written, step-by-step instructions; I've tried demonstrating; I've tried tutorials. It's not the information or how it is presented. It's a mental block about learning new things.
"Why can't it just work?", and the fact that it doesn't is put on my shoulders as the "tech" generation. And that's that.
What really gets me angry is that they are helpless to do anything in their daily lives without their computer, and blame me for that fact (Cause *I* created all malware and put it on their computer, clearly), while simultaneously ridiculing my choice of career as worthless, because "technology is not important". The irony is lost on them. Completely.
The war you are facing is a cultural one, not a technical, or information/communication one. It's one better asked to a psychologist than Slashdot. Best of luck.
It sounds like you have all the control here, so simply lock down those computers. Install a decent anti-virus, firewall, and script blockers. Install a decent web browser and delete the IE icon on the desktop. Ensure all these and the OS are able to update themselves automatically. Install the programs your family uses. Then create a non-admin account for them and do not give them the admin password. That's what I've been doing and the only problems I've had to deal with in the last few years were a hard drive crash and some minor issues. If they need to install a new program or need the admin password for any reason, they have to go through me to get it done.
Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
I bought my Dad a Mac and then pointed him to my friend who's a Genius. In all seriousness (did the above) and I locked his PC out. He's a user with no rights. I did everything with an administrative account and did NOT give him the password this time. Last time everything was peachy until I gave it to him. Format/reload/lockout
I know a lot of people have a hard time mustering up the courage to tell their folks to pay up, but take my advise - you're doing them a favor in the end (not to mention giving them a lesson the value of what you do).
Ubuntu still has a little ways to go, but it's good enough that if you're having regular problems, it will solve them. Just do it. You won't regret it.
Your post says a lot about your family dynamics... there is a cycle going on here where they use the computer willy-nilly, and then when it gets screwed up, they know that you will fix it for free. What you need to do is make them pay for your services, so there are some stakes behind them asking you to fix it. That will probably curb their behavior when it comes to installing every toolbar known to man.
There is probably one major offender, and you could probably do some detective work to figure out who that person is if you tried.
I know there is a linux option for this, I am assuming someone makes a windows tool fot it as well. Create a livecd rescue of how you tweak the system for their use. They corrupt their system, boot the live cd, reformat the system to the way that you set it up as opposed to pure stock. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I was in exactly the same problem, compounded by the fact that some of my relatives were a long distance away. My weekends were spend "fixing the computers" of in-laws and relatives.
So finally, I announced that I will stop supporting Windows. I moved 3 households to Linux (Ubuntu) and gave each user several hours of instruction on email, pictures and browsing. One user decided to buy a Mac instead.
The request for support are now down to one every couple of months for something trivial, generally a forgotten password.
I have my weekends back.
I had an old man that had trouble using computers, always getting viruses and what not. I installed Ubuntu to head off a lot of these problem but he refused to use it. He wouldn't even let it boot all the way up. He saw the splash screen and just turned it off. Next thing I know I got a request to appear in court in the mail and had to defend my actions to a judge that was just as ignorant of computers. I actually lost the law suit but was able to get the court to agree that my punishment was going to be to set the machine back like it was. In my book that's not a loss. It's what I wanted to do from the start if he didn't like it. After that I refuse to do anything for anyone that isn't paying me. No more favors, if any friends, neighbors or family want their computers fixed they can take it to a shop and pay to have it fixed. Something a lot of computer techs need to learn to do. When someone asks of you can fix their problem recite, "I really don't know that much about computers." I say this in the mirror from time to time.
Give them all this
This space for rent, inquire within.
That's how I solved it, to the extent that I have. The rules are fairly simple, if a bit brutal:
The last few times I've rebuilt their computers, I've taken disk images. Another good step to take would be backup -- teach them to burn DVDs if you have to -- as that makes the rebuild easier. But worst case, image the broken machine, restore a known-good image, and restore files (after scanning) from the broken image.
But the point is, those rules are simple enough that it's not a question of education, it's a question of discipline. And as this isn't a business, you can actually ask them to meet you halfway on that. If they don't, you can simply stop supporting them, or demand that they start paying.
Think of it this way: If they asked you to come help them move, that's one thing. If they ask you to do that every 4-8 months, sooner or later, you give them the phone number of a local moving company.
That said, if anyone does find resources like you've asked for (videos, etc), I'd love to know about them.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Give them each separate accounts, and remove administrator privileges. Have a backdoor administrator account so you can install something for them if they need it, but otherwise limit their access.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
But, if all they are doing is checking websites and reading email, why not just switch them over to Linux or OSX? Then they won't have to worry about these problems again.
If that isn't an option, just setting them up with Firefox, a good AV, Windows Firewall, Spybot, and automated Windows Updates should take care of most of your problems. An even better option would be to just give them limited accounts, or at least move them off of XP so that every action they take doesn't have Administrator permissions.
As for your actual question, this website might be useful.
I got my mom a iMac 5 years ago & have maybe spend a total of 7 hours working on it since then. Two of those were upgrading the RAM & two more were upgrading OSX.
I had never even touched OSX until we opened that iMac up. I had no problems setting it up & she has had no problems using or maintaining it.
There is a war going on for your mind.
Create a limited access user profile for non-tech savvy family members. Lock it down as much as possible. Or use the guest account feature that clears the profile when the user logs out.
Using an operating system other than windows is a good idea also, but unrealistic that it will result in a better situation for the tech support family member. Your virus issues will be replaced with compatibility complaints. If the family doesn't want to learn how to avoid viruses they don't want to learn a new operating system.
Not gonna solve every problem, but a properly configured proxy server will prevent a tremendous number of issues. Couple it with OpenDNS's filters and a minimal amount of training and you can stop most of the routine malware.
Of course, I switched my family to Linux years ago... but if I absolutely had to run windows, I would use OpenDNS and some sort of proxy that will scan downloads for viruses(squid w/ clamAV?).
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
I've just explained, over the phone, for the umpteenth time, to my SO how to copy and paste. It can be very frustrating. However there were things she actually did understand. She didn't ask what and where the 'Apple-Key' was, which is a step forward. I expect her to learn it completely in the next half year or so.
If your folks do nothing but surf and mail you should install Linux for them and explain the basics of handling it whenever the need arises. Viruscleaning and virus avoiding is a non-trivial task and I run into these problems quite often. And I'm an expert with 25 years of experience. Being unavailable once in a while is a good thing too for techsupport - if it's something they can easyly figure out for themselves.
Bottom line:
n00by? -> You're getting a Unix-based OS (OS X or Ubuntu Linux would be my choice) and a non-admin user account. That's it.
Experienced user? -> Here's your box, do with it whatever you want.
Be patient and reteach the basics of computing and surfing over and over again. It'll stick some day.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I was in a similar situation with some of my grandparents, I eventually gave up on trying to teach them and just created a simple ubuntu virtual machine that was just a web browser, set them up using delicious for all their bookmarks and had the virtual machine not save any changes when it closed out. That way each time they start it up it is fresh like the day it was created. Took a little bit of extra work to get it all set up but this way their core machine is some what safe from their internet travels.
I'm in the same situation and I limited the dead-scenario by keeping user accounts in the Users Group (and NOT Administrators). Normally, a non-tech user, doesn't need any other things than Mail Client (sometimes, they even check emails thru the Web), Web Browser and Office suite. As soon as you installed such Apps with YOUR SUPER-SECRET Administrator Account, keep them in the Users Group. It's a feasible way: contract with them: "Do you prefer Virus or Administrator Account?". The other way to speed up things is keeping an hard disk image of the last clean installation: with software like Clonezilla, you can restore PCs in a faster way. Unfortunately, I'm looking for some videos to let my parents know what a malware is, how to avoid and so on...and I'm an Italian Guy: videos in such native language is harder to find.
I am tech support for the 5 users in my house plus a friend's family of 8. In my house we use either Macs or one of my ubuntu boxes but for the friend I wrote up a three page document on safe surfing and anti virus/malware software. How to scan, update etc. I can send it to slashdot if you want, but some of it isn't in English.
I do not have a sig. You are hallucinating.
not clicking on Ads
Use an obscure browser for extra points
Tell your family that when someone offers you something for free on the internet, they should assume it's a scam until after appropriate research has been done. I believe there was an article just recently on the unpleasant things done by the creator of Mafia Wars.
I had the same problem and I replaced my Family with Macs. Now I harldy, if ever, have to fix their computers or answer inane tech questions. I am telling you, this is the only arrangment that will work for you.
Slashdot is too nerdy for me.
I have to deal with a few hundred "family members" daily (read: teachers, alumns and support personnel) ;) Our user's requirements are quite uniform: Web/mail access, document editor/spreadsheet, and multimedia.
Our solution is quite simple: restrict access. Do they want to install some software? Ask us. Do they want to connect a new printer? Ask us. We don't allow (almost) anybody to install, upgrade, or do any administrative work on the Campus' computers. That's what we are there for. And no, there's no "I need to have this installed right now or the world will collapse" software. If they want something installed, let them ask for it with time to spare.
That, removing Internet Explorer from sight of recalcitrant users and a few registry tweaks (like creating an autorun.inf entry in IniFileMappings conveniently set up to avoid autorun.inf files being read) and the computers work quite well quite often :)
Of course, family pressures can be (and usually are) harder to withstand than workplace ones :)
A friend in your situation put his parents and grandparents on live CD's. Trouble over. One grandfather objected because he wanted to save emails and a local store advertised "Recovery Services." My friend referred the old man to the store. With Gmail and Google Docs, web browsers, email correspondents and light-duty word processors don't need local storage. Viruses can't infect a CD Rom.
Every six months I was reinstalling my daughter's PC. Then I got her a used Mac, and despite her doing the same kinds of crazy things as on the PC (for example, deleting Terminal.app to make space on the boot drive) she was never able to break it.
If they aren't willing or able to learn how to be responsible and avoid downloading malware, take away some of the power.
If it's not already the case, make sure none of the problem users have admin rights. If that's not enough, switch them to Ubuntu. If all they use the computer for is the internet, Ubuntu will work just fine for most of their needs.
Another plus side to Ubuntu: you can easily administer them remotely, especially if you're on the same side of the router, to make sure they are all getting periodic security patches.
I realize that Linux might not be an option if any of these users insist on web services like netflix streaming and certain facebook games, but it might be worth trying.
Also do any of the users use the computer regularly for anything other than the internet? I.e. games, syncing their I-Pod, etc? If so, coming up with workable solutions might cause more headaches under linux than just periodically wiping their systems.
If you are forced to stick with windows, consider setting up a *nix box as a file server and have every one store their data on a central machine that you control so that when their systems die, you can wipe them clean without worrying about data loss.
A friend of mine installed Linux on his parents computer, and put an end to the corruption/rebuild cycle. Of course, I think a large part of why this helped was that his parents only understood how to do the basics - read e-mail, browse the web, play music. They couldn't install new apps.
For my parents, I didn't think they would put up with "lock down" mode. So, I set them up with an iMac, and it has been great so far. I can ssh in to the system and look around, like Linux. That helps some support issues. For others, remote desktop works well. But, I have not had to deal with any malware, system corruption, or complete re-installs since moving to Mac. (Why that is, I don't really care.. maybe someday we'll have virus issues. For now, all I care is that it is not a problem)
Erase all their precious files the next time you find something worse than ad-ware on their machines. Of course, you want to back it up, but you're not telling that until a few weeks later when they come to realise that -not- knowing the risks of using a certain machine, they will end up losing -something-.
Hey, I learned from that in 1999 when I lost a whole HD with all my work on there after having enabled some silly virus.
> Wasn't Slashdot A Tech News Site At One Time?
This is ASK SLASHDOT, asshole. It's NEVER been about news.
Don't want to see it? Go to your prefences and block it. Sheesh, you must be some kind of moron!
Perhaps it didn't occur to anyone, but maybe switching to Ubuntu/Linux/OS X/[insert quick-fix OS] is not the best idea. One of the "security flaws" is a nine-year-old. Do you want to explain to him/her why running games doesn't work perfectly anymore (yes, I am aware of WINE)? Or why they can't play any of their iTunes-purchased songs? IMHO, you can't fix stupidity by switching OSes. You fix stupidity by making people less stupid.
Set them to autoupdate daily & make them scan pretty much everything - email attachments, downloads..
It slows the computer down overall but that's the price they'll have to pay if they don't want to learn.
Of course this is in addition to warning them to check for obvious signs:
* who is this email really from?
* does the URL actually go where it pretends it will go?
* am I downloading from a legitimate site?
* did I remember to scan the file I just downloaded? -- there used to be firefox addons that did this automatically..
Installing Linux as some are suggesting works in some cases only.
* They won't be able to use some sites (think Silverlight)
* If they run programs other than standard email/browser/IM combo, it might be a problem. OpenOffice is great but not a perfect substitute for MS Office.
HTH
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
1) Provide non administrative accounts for everyone but yourself - nobody needs admin on Windows any more
2) Install a good antivirus, which will easily be able to detect user level rootkits and malware
3) Disable AutoRun using the method provided on the NIST web site: http://www.nist.org/news.php?extend.264
4) Enjoy not having to mess around with compromised systems any more...
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
Sounds like it's time to transition your support job to the next generation.
OK, we all know a determined user can break it, but for the average home user, it, combine with a big home NAS (andd back-up NAS), Deep Freeze will reduce your support load to almost nothing. Just make sure to get a good disk image to make future metal restores easier, and make sure /user redirects to the NAS.
http://www.faronics.com/html/deepfreeze.asp
Use legal copies of Windows, turn on auto updates, use a decent antivirus, and here's the critical user training:
Attachments don't only come from friends.
Most internet porn has viruses or spyware.
Most free music downloads have viruses as well.
I tried the "Install linux, throw away root password route" and it worked great for an old hippy friend that new nothing of computers.
I know it may seem mean, and all that, but I tell friends and family that if they want my help fixing their computer, they have to abide by my "rules". Which is that I will lock the system down, and remove a lot of the common ways in which viruses and malware ends up on someone's system. For example: If they want Internet Explorer instead of Firefox, then they're on their own to fix anything that goes wrong. Usually after they see the rates places like Geek Squad charge for what is ultimately a far less comprehensive service, they come around pretty quickly.
I've found you need to be rather Machiavellian about it. YOU are the one with the expertise needed to fix this problem, so YOU hold the power. YOU set the conditions by which you will share your expertise with them, and they either accept your terms or they seek out some kind of alternate solution on their own. And it may seem disrespectful to your parents, but it's disrespectful to you if you fix things, try and explain how to avoid it in the future, and they turn around completely disregard everything you say. All you're doing now by helping them, is reinforcing a behavioral pattern of learned helplessness. What you're doing is teaching them that they can do whatever they want, and then you'll come along and fix it when they screw things up. You need to disabuse them of this notion post-haste. Either they put up with your restrictions, or they start chipping in some money for your time and expertise.
-Aerogems-
If your family is like mine, they will not learn unless the cost of not learning it becomes too inconvenient. As it stands, you are probably bearing the brunt of the inconvenience. Spread it around. Each time you have to do the same things to fix their problems, charge them more, and let them know it. What you charge does not necessarily have to be $$$. Let them clean your place, yard, cook meals for you, fix something, baby sit, .... but get something out of it. You are giving up your time to fix the same mistakes of theirs time and again. This is time that you could be improving YOUR life.
this really isnt that hard.
1. do a fresh windows install
2. install AVG free antivirus, etc etc
3. Make the only account that has admin access be in your name. Put a password on it. Don't tell them what it is.
4. Make accounts for each of them, all Limited accounts.
5. back up the computer (take an image file).
Now if they screw it up, just unfuck their user account or re-create it. And if somehow it really gets screwed up (unlikely), then just restore the image. They may whine and complain about not being able to install some software, but that's tough cookies. Tell them this keeps their bank account safe (it does!)
--IronHelix
Start charging.
Suddenly the incidences of stupidity will drop. Or failing that you'll make some money out of them.
Stop that. If you insist on holding their hands, make one clean rebuild of their workstations just the way they like it and then image it. Provide them with a restore disc which will restore that image and wipe everything else. Give them a copy and keep spares hidden where only you can find or lose them.
ANY time they come to you with some problem which even looks like they may have caused it themselves, just say "Stick in the restore disc". There will be whining about lost data, missing Solitaire high scores and having to rewrite that paper on Chinatown (and it was a really good paper), but that would be a good time to learn about something called "backups" and "not wasting your time".
If you can find them a copy of "Not Being A Dummy For Dummies" then that might help too. It has been out of print for a while, though, so good luck.
When they want to do something else other than run Firefox, then they are hosed. All the family is going to do is resent you for forcing linux on them. Just wait until they want to play a game they bought on Bestbuy. All the propaganda about the apparent superiority of open source software won't impress them when their game won't run.
One would be better off setting up a limited user account on windows, and tell them to only use the administrator account when they are absolutely sure they want to install a piece of software.
Okay, as they say, blood is thicker than water. As well-meaning as these kind folks on Slashdot are, you and I know that you cannot get out of a support role. In truth, it is a meaningful service you can provide. But, since you're commited, why not examine ways to reduce your problems? Sure, there are lots of software options, but I'm more of a hardware kind of guy. I bought a $100 router with twin hardware firewalls. Even using free ZoneAlarm under Windows XP Professional, I have had zero spyware, malware, viruses, rootkits, etc. In well over a year. That's with four windows XP machines and 3 Ubuntu machines on the network, plus printer, XBOX360, etc. I lock my wireless network to MAC-only and leave it otherwise open and unencrypted.
And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
If you don't want to deal with the bugs the easiest way is to not allow them to get them in the first place. being a PC repairman I had this same problem with my dad, who frankly could tear up a Sherman tank with a toothbrush. Run them as a limited user and set up Comodo EasyVPN (with admin privileges of course) so you can install any software they might "need" and you should be good to go. Now the only time I have to go deal with my dad's computers is when he picks up a new piece of hardware like a camera.
Here is the link for the 32bit version of EasyVPN, they also have an x64 if like me you have moved past 32bit. Your family will love how you can "magically" install stuff without having to be there, and you'll love not having them tear up the PC when you're not around. A win/win in my book.
But in my experience trying to "educate" users is like pissing in the wind, bud. You see there is this thing called "social engineering" and the dancing bunny problem. You see they WANT to see the bunnies, and no matter how many times you say it's a trap! they will completely ignore you and go right ahead and do whatever they need to in order to see the bunnies. So as long as they are allowed admin rights then this will be your expression more often than not. Better to just be the "installer monkey" and keep them in a nice locked down limited user account.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
... but you're going to have to tell mom and dad to stay off the russian girlie sites
The manifest absurdity of it is too obvious to require explanation
Unless the machine won't boot to a functional desktop. Period. If you can't use Process Explorer and Process Monitor to track down the problem, then you shouldn't be trying to diagnose problems on a Windows OS. Like the poster, I've done tech support since teaching my 5th grade classmates how to format an Apple II floppy disk and worked both privately and for other companies. I will repeat it again. If you think your only option is to re-install the OS, odds are you don't know how to fix the problem and do it in a timely fashion.
Take away admin access. Let them have access as regular users who do not have enough privileges to install anything.
Over the years I have figured out what software they need. I install it when I set up their machine, and that is it. After that the machine is locked down. Very seldom will they come to me and ask me to install anything else for them. Sometimes they'll ask about some silly piece of software and its easy to say "No".
I have not had a problem since.
Their cost is a second hard drive that they pay for, typically this is well under $100. It's more work up front on this, but teaching them basic safe browsing, automating what they don't want to deal with and have an image (and the ability to freely blow away the boot drive) are all things that will save you time in spades in the long run. I've significantly reduced how often I have to perform the friends and family computer work this way, and they feel better knowing that they have regained some level of control over their computer.
I had exactly the same issue with two different family members. Endless viruses and trojans that no commercial package seemed to be able to avoid or remove properly.
For my parents, I bought an eee box. They only surf the net using the Splashtop interface, which runs outside of XP (I presume it uses Linux instead). They haven't suffered a single infection or one bit of slowdown in the past eight months and are absolutely delighted. The eee box fits nicely to the Vesa bracket on the back of their TV too!
For my sister and her family, I replaced XP on their PC with Ubuntu 9.0.4 (now 9.0.10). Again, no infections or slowdowns since. They now have enough confidence in the PC to actually buy stuff online, and like the fact that Open Office is so much better than MS Works.
Make an image of the computer after you set it up the way you want it. Then you can restore it quickly when it get hosed.
I'd use mod points on PP but I don't want to. So I'll post instead.
You fix it, you don't get paid for it, you should restrict what they can do! Limited user accounts ONLY. Don't give out the Admin password. Set FF as default browser, set up antivirus/antimalware, and DON'T GIVE OUT THE KEYS.
Of course, the next question is (and let's be honest) are you in a position where your parents can ground you? If so, you might as well just suck it up and deal if you can't convince them that your plans are reasonable...
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
So this isn't what you're asking for, but it will probably be repeated throughout the comment section. Your users most likely won't get any better. Your real options are;
-Keep them on Windows: Implement regular backups (a good idea no matter which platform you're on), and institute some hardcore restrictions on their user accounts. You'll also want -insert anti-virus program of choice- and -insert anti-spyware program of choice- running, along with scheduling regular full scans within these programs. Try and preach safe computing practices, and come back in ~6 months when someone gets infected from facebook/stupid email forwards because they thought it was a message from their friend.
-Move them to Linux: This is only a good choice if they don't do too many complicated things with the computer. There are good open source alternatives for a lot of programs out there that they already use in Windows...so if they're watching dvds, listening to music, surfing websites, etc etc...they can do it just as well in Linux. If someone is trying to play WoW, you'll have to deal with running it in WINE, but that isn't a huge issue. The main thing you'll want to do is find out what they do and use on the computer, ensure there's an alternative on Linux (or that it can be ran directly via WINE), and then go ahead with it. As an example, my computer-phobic girlfriend actually enjoys using the latest release of Ubuntu, and has said things like, "It works the same as Windows, but it's all been moved around a bit."
For about 3 years now, my parents has been using Ubuntu on their PC. So far, no "real" problems. Every now and then, my Dad needs something that only works on Windows; but I usually just run it under Windows using Virtualbox on his behalf and it works just fine (he needs something Windows only about once a year so its OK that he waits for me to handle it).
However, the biggest problem that most people ever realize about Ubuntu is that MOST DOWNLOADED APPLICATIONS WILL NOT WORK!!!! The most common complaint is that I ever get happens when my Dad follows the instructions on some website which tells him to download an .exe file and double click on it, but then nothing happens (I don't install WINE). 99% of the time, it is just some malware that he shouldn't be installing anyway. I keep telling him that anything he downloads will not "run"; but sadly its hard to explain to non-technical people the difference between downloading and opening a document (like a simple PDF file) and running an application. I tell my parents to never download anything that ends with ".exe" but when people pass the age of 50, then tend not to remember anything that specific.
All my Dad ever does is read e-mail, and check stocks. All my Mom does is play Kpatience. So far its been working out fairly well.
Don't set them up with admin rights. Install Firefox or Chrome and hide the IE icons.
I'm not kidding. I use PCs exclusivly, but since I put my parents and brother on Macs, I haven't gotten a single call about a system problem.... the only calls I get now are "how-do-I" calls and those I can handle over the phone, or I remote in and show them.
this works http://www.faronics.com/html/deepfreeze.asp
The feds appear to have spent a lot of money developing nice Flash-based "Information Assurance" training materials complete with videos and voiceovers and nice little sub-plots and quizzes meant to be very accessible to their workers.
http://iase.disa.mil/eta/issv3/issv3/index.htm
Of course, not everything will be relevant to your family, but it's a good start.
Avoiding virii: Don't download illegally; don't look at porn; don't double-click "cutesquirrels.exe" that somebody emailed to you. Ta-da! Seriously, though, I've been running Fedora Linux on my parents' computer for about 6 months now (they have my 12-year-old nephew, 14-year-old niece, and my 32-year-old brother [the kids' other uncle] living with them, all using that one computer). It's 1.1 Ghz, 512M of RAM, and it works WAY better now than it did when it was running XP (i.e. I have to drive over less often, and when I do it's just to visit). Plus, I've been able to implement internet content filtering that protects the kids and my parents, but is far more lenient on my brother. My nephew has been able to install Windows games in Linux using WINE just by double-clicking and clicking next-next-next (i.e. he has no idea it's not Windows), albeit the hardware will only do so much. When I talk them into finally getting a faster computer, I'll probably just throw Fedora on that one for them, too, as it's really eased my support burden. Plus, with a little help from tools like hamachi, remobo or go6.net, I can get ssh access and fix the few things that do come up remotely.
Next time you reformat and do all the re-install to get their computer back to where they can use it, ghost the drive, and save the image onto a CD or DVD or USB external hard drive that you take with you.
(I'm sure there are open-source programs that do what Ghost does.)
Then, next time, it'll be quick and easy to put the machine back to "usable initial state".
On my wife's computer, I deleted all the Internet Exposure icons, installed Firefox, and told her "Firefox is how you browse the web." IE is still there hidden under the "Programs" folder, but she'd have to go looking for it. I don't think she knows there is any such thing as IE. She uses Thunderbird for email. (Outbreak Express is, of course, right out. I don't think I even left a copy of that thing anywhere on the PC.)
I emphasized to her that she should never open an email that she doesn't know who sent it to her.
She hasn't had a problem with viruses.
... and TightVNC.
1) Repartition the drive so they have a 20-40GB C: drive and partition the remainder for their data on D:.
2) After installing a fresh copy of windows on a freshly formatted drive, I install all their applications (make a list of them before reformatting, so you don't forget details like Adobe Flash Player, Acrobat, etc.). Also do all the windows updates and update all the applications.
3) Move the "My Documents" folder to the D: drive - also go through all the applications and verify that the default saving directories are all on the D: drive.
4) IMMEDIATELY Create a image of the C: partition. I use BartPE/WinPE to boot up outside of windows and "Symantec Ghost" to create an image. You can use any boot disk and any image program you want. Save the image to the D: partition. This image will be a large file or series of files that contains all the data of C:.
5) Now allow them to use their computers for about a week. This will allow them to move things around, customize things to their liking, etc.
6) Come in a week later, check for viruses, malware, etc. If it's clean, then create a SECOND image. This is your "broken in" image.
[6.1) If it's not clean, try to find out what caused the problem - go back to the original image you just made, and copy it back on. Show them what caused it, and tell them not to download whatever program caused it - and come back in another week (go back to step 5).]
7) Now burn your image files to DVDs - or stick them on your personal removable hard drive. Next time they have a computer issue, you can reformat/clean install/AND get back to their original settings/preferences/etc in about 15 minutes, by reimaging their computer. Unless they manage to royally screw things up, you don't even need to bring anything but a boot disk/cd, because their backup images should be on their D: drive. You have backups personally just in case too. ONE LAST THING: Before reimaging, temporarily backup their desktop folder and their Favorites folder in the D: drive. If you want to be really safe, backup the entire user directory in C:\Documents and Settings\. ALSO - do a quick search for documents that may have been saved on the C: drive. Then restore their desktop/favorites after reimaging.
8) After re-imaging, do windows updates.
I do this with my parents and friends the moment anyone needs a clean install. It adds about 30 min onto the process but then allows you to repeat it
New webcomic updated on Sundays: HERE
I've only had to be sysadmin for one person (my father) and that (until recently) was enough of a pain in the arse. How do you cope with 7?
Anyway, I have solved my problem pretty easily. Last time his machine ground to a halt under the weight of virii, malware and windows rot, I told him it was broken and then he need to buy a Mac. He did so (although he complained a bit about the cost) and (touch wood) I haven't had to deal with a single support incident since.
I do tech support for 2 people, and I've come to the conclusion that:
1) Linux is good enough for 98% of what they want to do & that this option fits my budget.
2) If you find yourself babysitting a Linux install for too long, replace it with a used Mac.
3) The admin is the only one allowed to use Windows on a regular basis (tax software & Netflix in my case).
Obviously, we're not gamers, and I don't claim that this will work for everyone everywhere. But I offer it in case it's helpful.
How about running Windows in a virtual machine (e.g. virtualbox.org) in Linux? You just have to configure it so that the VM starts in fullscreen mode automatically.
So, once installed to a state that you know is OK, you can simply make a snapshot image. If need be, it's easy to revert to that snapshot, or any future snapshots.
The only issue is going to be data. Well, you can store that on a separate partition and make daily/weekly backups using cron jobs. Now that 1TB and 1.5TB harddrives are standard, it should be no problem at all to have a liberal backup scheme.
Then, if there's some issue, you can simply SSH into the machine and revert to a working image and the machine will be reset to an acceptable state again.
see a Text Widget
Or just make them get a mac. It's cheaper than the above if your time is valuable to you.
My parents no longer have admin rights on their own PC. It takes me much less time to remote connect and install whatever stuff they want, than to clean up their wesses... every other week.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
and don't forget to put Windows 7 on it, to ensure constant contact with her.
New Economic Perspectives
If you're that good at doing, you could also try starting your own business on the side doing it. It's extremely easy to start up a small LLC and keep yourself protected with a legitimate business. That's what I did. It's amazing how quickly you stopped getting pestered to do things when you charge for it. Either the person corrects their actions or they find another sucker. Either way, you're getting paid for your time or no longer having your time wasted.
It sounds like these people needed help a lot earlier, in order to avoid printers and music players which require proprietary interfaces. There's a whole fucking world of standard stuff out there, and they ended up buying shit instead. Poor bastards. The worst part is that it's so easy to avoid, if people just think first.
They are there to control the parents, are they not?
tell them to get it repaired at the store.
Imagine a mechanic telling his brother-in-law "pay me for parts and labor, or just take it to the dealership". I can't imagine this. At the very best, I can imagine the mechanic saying "XYZ is probably wrong, I don't have the time to fix it, take it to RST and tell them ABC. They should be able to fix it for $HIJ"
Though... this illustrates that fact that a family car mechanic has his families interests in mind by giving them hints when the other mechanic tries to rip them off. Also, that mechanics are busy people and actually don't have time to fart around helping their families. There's a lesson in here somewhere, but I'm not sure what it is.
I think that it all depends on the details of your situation. 1. Macs. Yes, switching them to Macs will eliminate your support time, but it isn't a cheap solution. 2. Linux. It's fine for some people, but switching to Linux to reduce support time is like switching to Zima to reduce your bar tab. People who don't want to learn about tech won't like any flavor of Linux. 3. Windows. If you stick with Windows, install Firefox with Adblock Plus. Delete all IE icons. Move them to web mail. Make a disk image of each machine. Disk imaging software will save you a ton of time on the occasions where a reformat is needed.
I took a similar route and convinced my father, mother and both my brothers to buy Apple Macs.
And before anyone starts bleating "but Macs can have problems too..." I'll tell you what I tell my family now when they call me with problems: "So what? I don't support Macs."
According to an earlier article, Windows 7 looks and smells like a mac but is way more stable than a Mac.
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
I don't have as much trouble with my family's computers... maybe you just need to tell them to stop surfing pr0n sites :P
But if they insist, just stick a Linux LiveCD in their box "until you get around to fixing windows". And let them know they can surf all the (legal) p0rn they like with it with little repercussion :P
My current favorite is Linux Mint : http://www.linuxmint.com/ It's based on Ubuntu, but they're a bit less shy about including non-free software such as Flash and proprietary video drivers by default.
If they like it, you can also create a USB drive version of it so they can carry their changes (updated software and files) around with them. If they still manage to break it, you can simply copy over the casper-rw file over again with an empty version (or from the last working backup)
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/create-a-linux-mint-7-usb-flash-drive-from-cd/
My 65-year-old mother-in-law was, until recently, using a beige Dell Dimension that she got in 2001 shortly after her divorce. Eight years later, she told my wife she wanted a new computer.
Placing her under explicit orders to not order whatever pops up when she goes to dell.com, we went to newegg, got her an Asus Eee Box and a HP 17" LCD monitor. I set it up in my house, installed Ubuntu 9.04 and OpenOffice.org, Evolution to read her comcast.net e-mail via POP, Firefox set to default to comcast.net, a one-line bug fix to keep X from blacking out, and delivered the final product to her house--she lives 2.4 miles from us.
Several months later, and it's still working perfectly. Heck, she can even understand and install the software updates, which is a matter of pushing the big green checkmark button and typing in her password. That's even easier than it is in XP.
How much is your time worth, in any unit you care to name? If the answer is any amount greater than zero, then convincing friends and family to buy a Mac helps so, so much... I have several people I used to help all the time, and now I get a question maybe once a year. Not to mention that any frustration you are saving yourself, you are triply saving your friends and family who try to figure things out before they call you.
But I would add in addition to this advice, to buy a TimeCapsule for them as well. Yes it's a little more expensive than an access point and external disk combined. But refer back to my first point, the bit about time and so on? If they have a TimeCapsule set up they WILL USE IT, because it is on ALL THE TIME. If you try to make anyone connect an external drive they WILL NOT DO IT, and that means WHEN a drive failure occurs you will have to come help try and recover data. If the have a Time Capsule they can bring the system and TC into an Apple store and get the data back even if they can't figure out how themselves (which they probably will figure out).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1) Reformat and re-install everything
2) Install a firewall.
3) Install an anti-virus.
4) Install an anti-spam
5) Make users users, not administrators.
6) Take a snapshot backup.
7) After 1 month, verify for virus' and or malware...Take a snapshot (for personal files and bookmarks).
If the compute stops, restore step 7)
Steps 1-7 can be replaced with:
1) Install linux. any...
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
1. Reformat and install xp with just the updates. 2. Remove any shortcuts to IE and don't install any other browser. 3. Make a shared folder on the host machine. install virtual pc. 5. Install xp on a new vm image. do all the updates and install all of their software. 6. Create a shortcut to the share on the host. 7. Make a copy of that image. 8. Let the user know that if they want to do anything on the net they need to load the VM. Any files they want saved need to be saved in the shared folder. This is my setup, I don't run AV software and I visit many questionable sites in my pursuit of knowledge on the net. My VM stays in fullscreen mode all the time and my gf doesn't even really know the difference. If I ever feel like my machine is compromised, I revert my VM back to the original.
If this the biggest problem in your life you've got a lot more living to do.
Anyone who is too stupid or incompetent to get simple things through their head get my favorite simple fix..
Go back to pencil and paper. Period.
My parent are ~ 70 years old, and their computers are probably healthier than mine.
How?
I knew they wouldn't understand all the trade-offs involved in Internet security, so I set them up with a basic secure setup (auto-updates from MS, anti-virus, anti-spyware), and gave them 3 simple rules:
1) When you aren't using the computer - turn it off. Bad guys can't get in, or do anything to the computer, if it's not on.
2) Stay in the "well-lit" areas of the Internet. By that I mean corporate and reputable public sites - as a general rule of thumb, if they've heard about it on the news, its "well-lit".
3) Only download something when *YOU* want it, not when a site says you need it. And anytime a site says you need their special application to view video, listen to audio, or read something, they LIE.
I've also worked over the years to transition them off IE and Outlook, but that was just really icing - the basic setup and the security rules did *ALL* the heavy lifting.
Now, every so often, I'll have to do basic maintenace - renew their AV, make sure they've got all the updates, defrag their drives, etc. - but it's all relatively painless stuff. And I've never had to rebuild their computer.
-- GuardianLurker
I would suggest you stop providing tech support to your family. I do not understand why so many technical people find it necessary to fix everyone's problems. Stop proving free services to people. I have no clue why people in our industry do not view their work as labor. Only when your family pays a few hundred dollars for their own actions will they learn to stop downloading almost anything. Until then, you'll find yourself removing almost every piece of spyware you can think of. Hope this helps.
1. educate them NOT to download anything under the sun, open every email that comes through, click on every possible link to anything, etc.
2. setup or get them a system where they can do nothing to harm themselves
I chose number 1 for my folks, because i respect them and didn't feel like treating them like plebianic peons. i coined the phrase "think before you click", and it didn't take more than a month for them to fully realize the wisdom of not downloading programs, opening unknown emails, etc. because their computer just continued to work (and yes, it was WinXP). and besides, an educated user is much better than an uneducated user sitting at a dumb terminal.
you don't need any manual or resource. just use the history of the situation. downloading everything under the sun, opening every email under the sun, clicking every link under the sun, has caused multitudes of problems. DONT DO IT. it's that simple.
... is to not give end users admin rights on their computers, automate patching at regular intervals and hope that they don't put their bank credentials into a phishing site.
If you're dealing with end users that have control over their computers, they will destroy them on a regular basis. There is nothing you can do to fix human nature.
I solved this problem long ago. I simply made it a lot more painful to get my help than to just use it right in the first place. Now they very, very rarely ask me for computer help, and when they do, there are bribes involved. Having to suffer for months with a computer that's too slow to use is usually enough pain, but then I also tell them exactly how stupid it was that they did what they did. That usually prevents a re-occurance.
Sounds like your family won't learn unless there's a stick involved, either. Carrot doesn't always work.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
By fixing their computers, presumably without charge, you are breaking the feedback loop that results in cost to them every time their computer gets infected, and a signal for them to take the time to prevent them. With no cost to themselves, they become like government, pushing the cost on to someone else and not caring.
... are you still letting them all log in to Windows with full administrator rights? When I used to be suckered into supporting my mom's PC, we all found that the rate of problems went down astronomically when I set them up to use non-administrator accounts with their regular logins, and made the administrator account as cumbersome and inconvenient as possible to use.
Once you have the hardware setup, and the most important applications properly installed, there should be next to no need for them to have administrator rights on any regular basis. And if they don't have administrator rights a lot of those viruses and malware infections that are dependent on administrator rights will simply not be of any consequence since they won't be able to install and deliver their payloads.
And if you can't explain that simple principle to them in terms that they can understand and agree with, then you need to tell them you won't support their system anymore. When they find some other poor sucker to support their system, you will sleep much better at night.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
"Ever since I was introduced to computers at a very young age, I've been the resident tech support for a household of 7 users. I've been in a cycle for the last ~8 years where something happens to my parents' computer, I spend a week or two trying to non-destructively fix the problem (and try to explain to the users what caused it and how to avoid it), and then if it's not easily fixed I'll reformat and start from scratch. Most often, the level of infection warrants a reformat [...] My question for Slashdot is: are there any resources out there that explain computer viruses, malware, adware, and general safe computer practices to non-technical people in an easy-to-digest format? [...]"
I'm not being snide when I say this, but you really should think about moving your family to Linux. I moved my wife to Linux (from Windows) after she finished her Master's thesis. Before, on Windows, she experienced regular crashes and lock-ups, and other weird behavior. Now, on Linux, everything runs fine. My wife uses her laptop to do email, write docs, browse the web, watch Youtube, that's it. So maybe for her, it's an easy move.
I did the same for my mom several years ago. My step-dad thought himself a great PC technician ... despite knowing nothing about computers other than "point and click". So the PC was often hosed, usually through some malware problem. They used the computer just to browse the web, check email, write docs, do spreadsheets (home finance), play solitaire and freecell, play Flash games, watch Youtube. It was an easy move for them to migrate to Linux.
The key in making the transition easy is for you to understand THEIR computer use, what they use the computer for. In my experience, people who are "casual" PC users aren't doing anything that couldn't be done on Linux. Note "casual" ... with the people I support, that means no Everquest, no Half Life 2. Just basic computer use, and simple "diversion" games.
The next step is for you to convince your audience that Linux is okay, that it will meet their needs. My wife was an easy convert because she saw me use Linux every day, to do the same things she did. My mom was a little more difficult because I wasn't over there every day. But if you can sit down with them and show them (on your laptop?) how Linux is really just the same as Windows (what my mom just called "the PC"), then you may be in luck.
Don't push it too hard, and don't expect to change minds right away. May take several visits, casual demonstrations of what Linux can do.
When you demo Linux, don't tweak out your desktop. Let it be pretty much default. No odd themes, no cute backgrounds, no desktop effects turned on. That "geek stuff" kind of freaks out your potential audience.
Show that the same applications exist under Linux, but with a different name. OpenOffice versus "Microsoft Office". Firefox (same). Or Firefox vs IE. Make sure to install the Flash plugin ahead of time, so visiting Youtube is the same experience. I'd turn off Flashblock or not install it, so it's as close to the Windows experience.
If you do this, you might be able to make your family tech support easier. I find Linux harder to break, and certainly it isn't vulnerable to the malware that's out there.
Remove their admin access. Set auto-updates (and auto-reboots for Wednesday after patch Tuesday). Maybe outsource to India; bad service will force them to think for themselves.
On my family's stuff, I install AVG (free.avg.com) and Spybot Search and Destroy. I then set them to run everyday in the middle of the night a couple hours apart. I set them to auto update and auto clean. I then tell the family member to leave their computer on and just turn the monitor off when they are not using it. This pretty much eliminates the need to go and clean their machines every couple of months. The only calls I get are around major releases of AVG because it throws up a warning that the current version will no longer be supported. This takes much less time than manually removing all the garbage at moments of catastrophe.
My mom switched to Mac. Result: I only have to really do something semi-serious (i.e. more than 30 mins work) once every 2 years. My (mentally handicapped!) brother uses a Mac. Aside from an occasional correction of his mail settings via ARD Admin I'm hassle-free.
My brother and his g/f still use Windows. I just spent four f***ing days reinstalling Windows XP because Vista figured Autocad was either already installed, couldn't be installed, or shouldn't be installed. I told them it was the last time and I would only support them if they bought Macs. Microsoft is a group of clueless arrogant monopolists as far as I'm concerned. Apple is also arrogant but at least they make something decent. Vista scared me into fits and out of family tech support for life unless they pay me $ 75,- an hour. That got their attention, I can tell you. After some "but what will we do then?" comments of disbelief I explained my motivations to them and told them the truth: Windows is a bloated platform with no vision designed by a company that is run more by lawyers than by true genius and I've given up on them completely. Sorry if this is a bit rantish (I suppose it is a rant) but I really want to underline it for you in simple terms: M$ is your problem.
I think Apple has several ups over Windows:
- it's designed to be learned by playing with it
- it gets out of your way instead of in your face
- it has a much, much, much clearer structure; people can find the things / settings they need more easily, and with less actions. Try setting up a dual monitor and occasionally attaching e.g. a beamer. It only costs 1 or 2 clicks after the 5 whole clicks you need to configure it the first time around. Try doing that in Windows and you're at least 20 clicks farther, and of course something or other b0rks along the way every f***ing time
- supporting it remotely is pretty much hassle-free aside from opening a port here and there (or else you could use something like Teamviewer)
- if you ever DO need to reinstall, the migration assistant will keep your settings whole, and you can drag/drop the software from the old installation; it's MUCH easier than reinstalling everything from scratch.
If you're in doubt, download it and stuff it into a VM and play with it. See how long it takes you to get mail etc set up. Now don't get me wrong - no OS is perfect, and OSX has its idiosyncrasies like any other - but it has a lot less of them, and any issues are usually fairly well documented. Just stay away from newest releases until the 10.x.1 update is out, at the least, and you will do fine.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
You know what works?
Forcing them to go to a repair shop a few times and paying $65+ an hour.
Pain teaches.
Alright I know it's not the solution to everything but in some cases it's a good answer. My experience was like this, dad would buy some no-name box for mom to use, I'd set it up and then every single day she'd get some pop-up dialog box and make me answer it for her. Somehow she'd always find how to get weird little errors and she'd freeze. A few months later, dad would buy a new computer, and the cycle continued. Eventually mom noticed the iBook I had and wanted a Mac. Dad wouldn't put up with the extra cost and got yet another generic box for her. Finally after that one went the same way I convinced him to get a refurb as it's cheaper and I'd even pay part of the price.
Finally he relented and she got an eMac. All the sudden the woman who hated computers loved them, people come over and she'd force them to look at her iPhoto album. Years later she now has an iMac and is working on scanning in her old photo albums, she emails and uses the web. So for some reason the different OS did the trick for her. Perhaps it stays out of the way better, or is more visually oriented I don't know, but after she got that eMac she never had any problems again... for years.
Anyways, I say this as a Linux/Windows/Mac user with a Mac preference. Use the right tool for the job, some people need different tools.
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
Having two of my brothers switch to Macs...
I stopped doing non-business support better than 10 years ago. I could have worked 24 hours a day, every day and very few of the people asking me for support would have been happy. It was much better (for me in the short and long run and them in the long run) to tell them that I just didn't have the time to do the work and that they should learn how to fix it or take it somewhere to be fixed.
That being said, if someone is trying and they need help, I do help them out.
As for you...
1. If you don't have one already get your own computer, so you don't have to deal with their computer to do your thing.
2. Give them user accounts, not admin accounts. If they want admin access to install something, it gives you a little more leverage in asking that they learn more about their computer (or they can wait a couple of days for you to find the time to install it).
3. If you haven't already... install anti-virus and anti-malware software. Look at AVG, MalwareBytes, SpyBot, and Windows Defender.
4. Look for ways to keep their computer from killing the network. Put your own computer in a VLAN separate from theirs so that you have access to the Internet but aren't getting DOSed by theirs.
5. Be slower about fixing their computer. By being a good admin and fixing it immediately, you are training them that they can foul up the computer without repercussions.
6. Wean them away from you for tech support. Is this really something that you want to do for free for the rest of your life?
I'm a security consultant for a very large corporation, and every weekend I was coming home to find my three kids computers infected with something, from the MS IE Browser hijacked to viruses. They would complain how slow it was, and all too often things would break. Finally one day, I had enough. I want the weekends free! I ripped out the WIndows laptops and got all three kids and the wife an Apple laptop - and I haven't had a problem since. I'm not in any way implying Apple is more secure than Windows - IT IS. I don't have hijacked browsers, registry corruption, viruses, malware, bloat ware, etc. It just works and it's been working for the last two years. If you want to maintain your sanity and get away from being the Family IT Guy, don't run Windows in my opinion.
I used a combination of LogMeIn and Hamachi. LogMeIn gets me access from anywhere, while Hamachi gives me a secure, globally available VPN to their file system, and both punch though most firewalls. Also use Microsoft Sync in some cases to backup files or push stuff over to them.
tell them to stop being idiots. next time you format, put linux on it. then they cant download those trash apps they get and you will stop gettings calls about problems with the computer but questions on how do i do this, which takes less time away from your personal projects or family things.
I see that some one has already mentioned Deep Freeze, that is one option. What I did with my family is I setup a document backup to an external drive. I then loaded their system up and configured it as needed. I installed most of the software they desired. I then captured a ghost image and saved it to their backup drive. I disabled the backup drive from showing up in explorer and left them too it. When a refresh is warranted, I just apply the ghost image and recover their documents and such from the backup. This takes between 30 minutes and an hour. Works for me so far. Any application they lost after the refresh will have to be reloaded. If it is warranted, I will add that software and then create a new image.
1 simple solution GHOST, the best program ever made by symantec
2 "sandboxie" great program for older computers x86 allows programs to be installed in
a "sandbox" without being able to change anything
3 a live cd most are linux based but there are some windows based, downside you CANNOT install anything
4 steady state or limited user accounts, i.e. users cant install anything
my first suggestion is option 1 by far, get the machine where you want it and make the first image and whenever you need to just restore that image
cons to this are space requirements, this method takes up the most space, a typical pc would take up between 8 and 15 GB
option 2 great program you must pay for it, not fool proof
options 3 and 4 you just cant install software as the end user and may not be very friendly to all users
theres my peice
Please install an antivirus package on that computer. Then set it up for automatic updates of both Windows and the antivirus. There are several good options for "free" or low cost packages that usually include some malware and spyware protection. AVG, Avast, NOD32 are fair examples.
When people come to me with that kind of problem enough times, I simply revoke their administrative privileges on the computer. However, I still give them the password to the Administrator user. This lets them install apps without having to harass me to do it and keeps nasty stuff from doing too much when the user does something stupid.
Machines (even Windows machines) continually getting infected by Viruses and other malware is not normal. If it keeps happening, someone's doing something to cause it. What I suspect that you're going to have to do is to find out how the infection is happening and make it difficult or impossible for it to happen again in the future.
What that is will depend what the problem is - it might be ensuring that users use non-admin accounts, or browsers that are easier to lock down, or something else entirely.
Obligatory car analogy - right now they're regularly running out of fuel because the fuel gauge is broken, and you're fixing it by filling the tank up and putting them back exactly where they were before.
I work as a programmer and we have this conversation a lot.
In the last few years I've noticed a serious trend. We're now mostly 35-40 and we are tired of working on home computers.
The solution? Get a mac.
EVERYONE who has one agrees (Don't believe me, ask around). If you want to know, go ask a PC user how he supports his family's computers--the story will generally be like yours, then go ask a mac user how he supports his family's computers--If he's been using one long enough it's going to be by getting them to buy macs, then not having to mess with them any more.
It really is THAT easy. Many mac users that I work with just tell their families that they don't understand the new-fangled windows even though they work with it every day (few programmers are lucky enough to be able to use macs at work).
For yourself--get a mac and install a windows partition for gaming, or if you are into high-performance gaming buy two computers... It's worth it.
By the way, this is from someone who occasionally tried macs before intel and couldn't stand them (and still would not use a pre-intel mac). The dual-core and OSX are essential for usability because the Mac UI tends to be pretty chunky with just one CPU.
I've owned a computer since 1978. I run a Linux server at home, and have 2 windows computers I NEVER turn on at home. I use windows all the time at work. I've built almost every computer I've owned except my 2 macs. I'll probably never buy another non-mac (Might convert the mac mini to a linux server eventually.
Not only does this work with my family, I used the Mac to escape providing freebie Windows support to friends and relatives. When they ask about my recommendation for a new computer, I tell them "Buy a Mac. If you choose a PC, you are going to get stuck with either Vista or Windows 7. I don't have either one, so I can't help if you go that way. I'm finished wasting my time on Microsoft problems." If they buy a Mac, they won't need much help. If they buy a PC, they won't expect me to help. A win/win for me!
Of course, they CAN buy a netbook with XP, but in my experience the newbies who beg for free tech support are the same people who get talked "up" into buying a low-end full-sized notebook -- precisely the type of system most likely to suffer under Vista/Win7 (remember "Vista Capable"?)
I wouldn't rely solely on education to fix the meatspace vulnerabilities. You need to have some degree of fool-proofishness. A switch to Firefox + Thunderbird is a good start. Get them to use Firefox with addons such as myWOT which does a great job of warning of malicious and even just untrustworthy sites.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Check this out http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/quick-guides-scary-internet-stuff Seems to do what you are asking for.
I switched to Linux a few years ago, since then, I claim that I windows has changed too much, I don't know how to use it anymore, and that I've forgotten what I did know. It's actually more or less true, and since they think that computer problem solving is a matter of knowledge rather than method, I've been much less likely to be asked for help since then. When asked for help I just tell them how I'd go about learning how to solve the problem and they find someone else usually.
Though, the recommendation I saw above of moving the family to Mac is actually a really good idea. Mac users have way, way less tech support issues.
http://www.sans.org/newsletters/ouch/ You can subscribe them to the monthly newsletter. It is meant to help non technical users understand these issues. Being in the IT Department, I have been forwarding these emails every month to all employees for years.
Most of our computers are macs, with my parents iMac running XP in bootcamp, cuz they use an older version of quicken for money. That's the one reason they have it... We have approximately 8-9 macs, including an old performa... ah, the memories! However, two years ago my parents purchased these $500 compaqs... NOOO... They are pretty lame computers, underpowered(even with my upgraded ram), and basically suck, plus they run vista home basic. LAME! So, I convinced my parents to allow me to put Ubuntu on one of them, just a dual boot. Guess what? After giving them all a quick intro to grub(so they could switch between vista and ubuntu), and about 2 minutes of the desktop interface, they all love it, and refuse to use vista. !! victory!! This includes my sister, who once wrote a blog entitled "The magic of computers... ooooh!!! shiny.". Yeah, she's not very tech savvy, but she is able to use it... I'm working on my dad(who is pretty good with computers, definitely a power user, just not a nerd) to allow me to totally wipe those laptops... Maybe if they get rid of them, I cld fix em up as servers... :D
You want an effective way to negate this issue? Charge them. I was used and abused within my family and their network of friends as the "computer guy". Until I stepped up and charged my own mother...yes I said it. I let her and everyone else know that my time is not free and there would be a fee for me fixing everything under the sun. Everyone started perking up their ears and taking notes when I came around from then on. Now my family mostly runs XP and are not very savvy but they rarely have issues(that they call me on) any more. It made me think about my brother the mechanic or my cousin the electrician. They get the same expectations heaved on them. It's broken, it's family, it's free and the lesson I had to learn was that a free service was a service abused.
haha
Get a mac and never look back.
Disclaimer - not trying sell this product, but I'm an IT admin that deployed it...
I deployed a product called Deepfreeze to a school lab - it essentially locks the state of the PC. Students are notorious for blowing up computers. Get a virus? Reboot and the machine returns to exactly the way you set it up. Installed malware? Reboot. Do what I did during testing and gut the registry, turning the machine into a brick? Reboot - fixed. If you want to make a change, you have to "unfreeze" the machine. Just don't give that password to unfreeze to the family members. If you install a new program, you unfreeze then refreeze the machine. Make sure all their files are stashed on a USB key or second drive that isn't frozen. Just keep your OS/application drive frozen.
Works like a damn, and the cost is usually less than what you'd spend on AV.
If this has been going on for 7 years - just give up on the education side - it just isn't sticking - and put a solution in place that allows for rapid recovery.
After I get their machine the way they want it, with all the security patches and applications installed, I image it with Acronis TrueImage. Then I explain that if/when they get in trouble I will restore this image. Usually I image their corrupted machine before restoring so we can pull off any documents or pictures they might want to save (TrueImage can mount any image as a drive). While this doesn't prevent them from messing up their machines, it does minimize my support time in bringing them back online. And it has the added benefit of allowing me to easily expand or replace their hard drive should the need arise.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Instead of reloading Windows after you format, install a Linux distribution. Problem solved. Or, if you insist on reinstalling Windows, get AppGuard, which will block the stuff your anti-virus misses. (Full disclosure: I work for the company that produces it, but it's kept my daughter's computer virus-free for six months now.)
Also, as others have suggested, a Mac will reduce your workload, but I consider Apple to be even more of a dictatorship than Microsoft.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
One caveat I would add to this, although it might not be an issue as you're still in the same house. If you're not a Mac user yourself, it can be difficult to help users find settings to make changes when you aren't there.
My wife has a Mac notebook, and while we eventually got it working, I had problems helping her setup her wireless to a non-broadcasting router with encryption because Mac network settings are labelled differently and configured differently from Windows network settings. I know I could have figured it out myself in person much more quickly, but it was much harder remotely than helping with Windows configuration would have been.
I find it sad an disturbing that both the OP, and many of the posters, only want to force the family to do one thing or another so he doesn't have to deal with them anymore.
I spent many hours patiently fixing my dad-in-laws computer when he'd managed, somehow, to mess it up again. Didn't bother me much as it gave me a chance to visit with him and mom.
They're both gone now - and I'd give much to hear the phone ring and Dad say "son, I've managed to mess it up again, why don't you come over and fix it, and then we'll have dinner and catch the ball game".
If you can educate them to avoid malware and viruses, that's great, but usually people want to click on every popup and answer yes to every prompt, so that hasn't worked too well in my experience. Next time you have to reinstall their computer, just create an image of the OS in it's pristine newly-installed state and show them how to reimage the computer. If you wanted to make it foolproof, you could create a second partition on the hard drive that doesn't show up in Windows and store the image and imaging software there, and add a selection list that appears when they boot: 1) boot Windows 2) reimage computer. Then all you have to teach them is how to back up their bookmarks, saved passwords, e-mail, etc. You could write a script that would copy all that stuff over to a network share and another script that would automatically run upon reimaging that would copy it all back. Or, you could just set something up where all that stuff is backed up on a regular basis (which you really should do anyway), so they can just nuke it and then restore all their data afterwards.
Tweak Guides and their Ultimate Tweaking Companion is the first place I go when I need to optimize a computer or when someone who IS technically-minded asks me, the computer programmer in the family, for help. It is easily readable and free. You can also donate $ and get a bunch of extras. Additionally, the author makes guides for tweaking your PC for the best speed, overclocking, etc. and customizing for various games. It's an excellent resource.
Say you can not fix it. Fake it if you have to. Once they have to pay a professional a few times, they will be more careful and password-protect thier machines from each other.
1 . get them Macs
2. If you choose to stay on Windows then...
A. Get Microsoft Security Essentials and Windows Defender on each host
B. Put an open source untangle firewall at the border turn on the anti virus, anti spyware, anti phishing features of untangle turn on web filtering for malware on untangle use protocol control for torrent if they pirate a lot of stuff becase most torrents also have trojans.
C. Give them Firefox with adblock plus and noscript. Remove the IE icons.
Problem solved and you don't even have to bother them with the details FYI they don't care about the details
Use an old spare PC to install an Untangle gateway. Filter the bad stuff and prevent them from even being exposed.
http://www.untangle.com
It's free too. :)
when something goes wrong, roll back to pristine VM image. Keep the host running something sane, and not use the host to browse the web at all. This should reduce your Family Tech Support workload drastically.
I locked my parents' computer down to a user account only. The amount of trips I've had to make to fix it since then have drastically been reduced. I do have to remote in and install something every now and then for her, but I can then make sure they don't end up with toolbars and other crap. Two weeks after I did this my mom called and wanted me "to install facebook." While I found this funny and explained to her it was a webpage that didn't need to be installed, she actually had a file she got emailed called install_facebook.exe she was trying to run. I am so glad I had locked it down to not allow her to install anything.
You'll piss them off when you delete an important file.
I've been working on this idea for a couple years now, and here's my thinking.
We really need them to use a hyper visor so they can select from multiple images. When one goes bad, they switch to another one, You login to the bad one and fix it. There should be a NAS that you/they can dump their files to as well, and the alternate image (or user) knows about this NAS as well. Then it is only a matter of syncing cookies and browser histories for a seamless expereince. I would definately leave applications out of the sync because they will be a causer of problems. They can always re-install on the new image.
The idea of having an alternate images provides a much needed continuation point. They can continue to use the computer with minimal interruption while you fix on your own time.
I have yet to see it, but something like the VM bare metal hypervisor running in the background would be ideal. It runs a linux kernel and makes the images available on the network. What they need to change is it needs to run in the background and start a local session into one or more virtual machines as well, so this can be served all by one computer. The only indication is it gives you an option of which image to run. Ideally you could to this with three images: One for the NAS, one for the main GUI, and one for the backup.
For what we have now in today's tech a a linux box with a SAMBA share, and some Windows images and the Linux Client. Let it serve the images back to itself, while providing a storage location that is on the Linux side of things so it won't be wiped. You can even set their My Documents folder to it in Windows.
The only point of contentions are slowness and network connectivity. The Linux box needs the network. If you have dial-up, this could be a problem. But for any family with a router it will work fine.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Sure, you could try to teach the 50 year old dog new tricks, but you got here because [s]he didn't want to learn them in the first place.
Your choices:
Prevent any lasting changes. Live CD-ROM, USB key which is write protected, mounting read-only, etc. This prohibits bookmarking and the like. But if all they want is web, maybe it's not a problem. There are a few caging options that you can use too, that blow away the user id's changes on each log out / shutdown. As long as they don't need Administrator access, this may be a good option.
Streamline your install. Image the hard drive next time you "get it all just right". Except, repartition your hard drive so your "just right" fits in a second partition. Boot off a Linux CD, it doesn't really matter which one. Use dd to copy the raw partition to this new partition. Next time your family blasts it, boot off CD again, and use dd to copy the raw partition back. Fixes most problems. As extra credit, install a very basic (no gui) Linux on that other partition, and fix rc.3 or whatever so that as soon as it boots, it reinitializes the windows drive. Teach [Mom|Dad] to hit "2" whenever Windows is fucked up so it boots the non-default Linux install and wipes the drive and starts from scratch -- then you never have to be involved except to update the image.
But you know what I ended up doing? I stopped.
My wife ended up quite competent at fixing hers very quickly. When I stopped, the first couple of problems she ran into, I just suggested she try searching Google, since that's all I'd likely do anyway. She figured it out. And now that she's responsible for her own machine, she is much more careful with what she does to it.
Same thing happened with my mom. My younger brothers picked up the slack for a bit, but she eventually figured out how to do it on her own. And you know what happened? She stopped downloading and installing all those stupid little waving flag apps or whatever that just end up being spyware. Now I'm not stuck fixing computers every time I visit, and overall they have fewer computer issues in general.
I may still help out occasionally on bigger issues, but that's usually more along the lines of "Can this be fixed? Is it worth fixing?" Tends to only happen every couple of years as another computer reaches the end of its life.
Rather than explaining, you could try using hosts files to block what you don't want them to get to. I've tried Pollock's hosts file and it seems to do a decent job while not blocking useful pages. http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/
hmmm....i have linux and mac in my house for my kids. Zero problems, but i realize this may not be the best solution. No amount of coaching is going to keep those windows boxes germ free though. My parents and brother drive me nuts and i live 2-3 hours away from them. One thing you can do to shorten your rebuild time is to image the computers with g4u next time you get them in a clean completely rebuilt state with all the programs back on. If you havent used it, its an open source Ghost, but better and free. Check sourceforge or google. I use it all the time and it saves me time and stress. You can rebuild an entire system in a few minutes.
The short answer is, if you want less work throw in the towel and get them a Mac or a Linux box. Refuse to help with the windows boxes or only help out with really hard tasks.
Fighting malware is an everyday task on Windows XP/Vista/7 so if someone wants to use it they have to accept it and learn Windows from the bottom and up. Throwing that on someone else isnt nice. Do you buy a crappy car and demand someone else to fix it for free?
At home i only have Linux except for my 12 y old son who plays games. My refusal to help with Windows has made him learn it pretty well by now so i like to view it a win-win situation. I dont have to put in hours of keeping an insecure crappy OS afloat and he learns some stuff about computers.
Same goes for my mom and pop who i gladly help with recovering lost files from formatted hard disks, failed USB disks etc and their Linux boxes. They know i wont go near Windows without serious money changing hands which is exactly how i like it. Helping out with Windows is really helping Microsoft more than helping your relatives. They bought something already broken from the get go and should really go to the reseller instead of to you.
HTTP/1.1 400
Say "No" gracefully.
My strategy in my household: All 3 systems run Ubuntu. 5 users, some 4 years old. Only I have admin. Problem solved.
In the office I'm forced to use XP. However most of the extended family now has issues with Vista... and since I've never run it I can quite honestly say that I have no idea how to fix a Vista machine. So, I say as gently as possible: "I can't help you."
For the ones I have a real soft spot for, like my mom:
- XP machine isn't running any non-licensed software. No WGA hassles (hopefully!)
- AVG installed & autoupdates.
- Windows autoupdates.
- Firewall enabled.
- Behind a cheap $20 router (surprising how much this helps)
- Use only FF (hid the IE icon and warned her about using it)... make sure you set FF to the default browser.
- As little local apps as possible... only openoffice and picasa.
- She doesn't get an admin account. Only myself and my brother in law do.
Surprisingly, the only time I've had to fix it is when my 14 year old nephew was on the box trying to install some hacked game he downloaded...
"You disturb me to the point of insanity. There. I am insane now." - The Sprockets
1. Easiest and most effective: stop fixing their problems. Sometimes, the best way to learn how to use something is to figure it out on your own. Also, it raises the stakes when they're faced with the option of clicking on the flashing "Click here for a free thingummajig!" button.
2. Set up accounts and limit permissions, just like a business environment. If they don't like it, explain that it's a security issue, and if that doesn't work, go to option 1. above.
3. Encourage them to only use their own computers. It sounds like there are several users and several computers in this environment, right? Well, enforce a one-computer-per-user rule and forbid sharing. Again, if it doesn't go over well, see 1.
I do NOT recommend as others have switching platforms. As it stands, you're the resident tech guy when there's a problem, right? Well, if you turn them on to Linux or Mac, now you're the resident tech guy who knows EVERYTHING about Linux/Mac, and who now has the training responsibility. You won't get calls about virii anymore; you'll get calls like, "How do I check my email," or, "I tried to install something and now there's only a command prompt!"
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
No I'm not trying to be smug. I simply refuse to maintain windows computers. Linux is not an option for most people. Ergo, a mac. Someday perhaps macs will be rife with trojans too. I'm not living in a dream where macs are perfect. But the very problem raised here is solved by a mac. So why fart around. Is your time worth nothing? if not these folks can cough up $599 for a mac mini. You don't have to use a mac, cause you are not the one with the problem. But they do.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
First, don't jump the second they need help. It may sound sadistic, but let them suffer for a while with their mistakes. Make them pay for the consequences of doing stupid things. Second, if the first doesn't work, make them pay (money) for it. Make their mistake hit their wallet. If you don't want to charge them (i sure as hell wouldn't), make them buy expensive antivirus. Make them have consequences. We have all seen spoiled children who are never disciplined. They never learn life lessons. They get everything they want. Make them live with their OWN mistakes. If they don't have consequences, what is their motivation to learn how to live on the web?
That is always one solution, at least right now. :-)
(And I'd set up accounts with with standard users or managed on the Mac to avoid issues even more. Perhaps something similar on the PC. )
Get a 1TB USB drive, use something like Rebit to make an image of a system in a good state and whenever something happens, reloadto that image.
You cand even update the image periodically.
Make them switch to Linux. You now only provide support for computers running a secure operating system that's impervious to the malware threat.
PC
+ Linux OS, SAMBA Share, Linux VMWare client
+Windows Image 1
+Windows Image 2
My "hypervisor" solution is:
PC
+ Hypervisor, Linux VMWare client
+ Linux OS, SAMBA Share
+Windows Image 1
+Windows Image 2
Alternate:
PC
+Linux OS, VMWare client
NAS
+OS (Linux?)
+ Image 1
+ Image 2
+ Image 3
You can load up the PCs to RSYNC documents/cookies to/from the NAS on startup so disruption is minimal.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I have an agreement with my mother which is 55 yo and has no computer technical skill. "You want me to take care of your computer, fine, you are not admin, you CAN'T INSTALL software." I do the software install. Since most of the malware need to copy itself onto some directory where she dont have write acces, it fixed many of the problem. Also none of her friends can come and do a "look what i found on this weird webpage is cute and funny but i need to install it first" Since she had her last computer 3 years ago I never had to re-install or clean malware out of it. Im just thinking now of doing a re-install as the Windows is aging and well windows age bad lol. Its not 100% proof but it did a good job for me.
While you guys are all battling with tech-illiterate parents who can't learn, my parents can and do learn, which is by far a worse situation. :) Now this would be a good thing, but my dad being a engineer who's had to get up to speed with computers in the last 20 years, goes head to head with me on technical issues.
As a natural problem solver he tackles issues head on with his PC and does very well for a member of the baby boomer generation who really didn't grow up saturated in technology the way later generations have.
Yet my dad makes the same observation that many of the elder techno-illiterate folk do. "Why doesn't it just work?" in this case is not an observation of a techno-phobe but a seasoned engineer who's been building things for 40 years that peoples live depends on.
"I design a bridge, if it crashed twice a day and had security problems I'd be out of a career." he says jokingly.
So in my case, pity me, for I have no clever comebacks for these kinds of remarks. I certainly can't impress my dad with meaningless technobabble because he would understand it.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
I'm actually going to forward a Slashdot article to a family member!
Take a nice-looking cardboard box, put on an address label, and place it at their door-step like any ordinary couriered package.
When they open it, arrange for a pound of glitter to effectively explode everywhere.
It's not harmful -- obviously -- but glitter will take something like six years to clean up. The point is, they just opened an unknown package, simply because it was there. And they'll be reminded of it every time they see another one of those billion tiny particles.
"Consider the source" isn't only a journalism thing.
Let them know that at any time, you could do it again. Then, one day, send them an e-mail that changes their wallpaper to a photograph of glitter -- or that box.
Just keep sending them non-harmful malware of your own. Except that yours is obvious -- they'll know when you've infected them. Let them spend all of their time trying to avoid your "pranks" and in the process their avoid real stuff.
And then do to them what I did to my grandparents. They gave their password to a friend when that friend sayed over. Needless to say, I spent three days cleaning up the crap that friend did. So I changed their login password to something that they'd be too embarrased to give out. And they remember every time they sit down to unlock their computer.
Relatives don't let relatives run as Administrators. Run as a user/restricted user. Lot's of problems solved.
Seriously dude, after the second time you should have removed their admin or power user rights and given them a standard user account. Then install a decent antivirus that you can prevent them from changing the settings on and force daily virus/malware scans. Also, once the account is setup the way they like it, login as an admin and create a backup of their profile... or use any number of free backup solutions to create nightly backups and/or create nightly/daily restore points.
I hate to tell you this, but knowing what you know about how they use their computer, it's YOUR fault that they keep having this problem. 99% of the time you can prevent bad users from creating these problems or at least make the recovery a heck of a lot easier on yourself.
Buy a sysadmin for dummies book or something, learn a little about backups and malware/virus prevention. Learn to tell your users that it's for their own good(as well as yours). And if they don't like it, tell them to ask somebody else for help(a little harder with family, but still VERY effective to get your point accross).
For 8 years they have relied upon you to solve their issues and apparently not learned anything! they are "non-technical" but have been using computers this entire time? I'm sorry but after that many years of using the damned thing if they haven't learned anything it's because you're always there to help them - stop helping. The excuse that they're non-technical doesn't fly after that length of time IMO. If they are so disinterested in the device but rely on it so heavily then there's a serious disconnect.
They aren't learning anything because they don't have to. If you always had someone to wipe your ass you probably would never have learned but somewhere along the way your parents decided it was time you did it yourself and TaDah YOU learned. Think of it as AA for computers - they have to hit rock bottom before they will get off their butts and bother to learn anything. A once in awhile help session is one thing but not to the extent that has been laid out here. Do they even bother to sit and watch while you fix their stuff? Or do they get to go off and do other things all the while whining that they want their computer fixed? Make them feel pain, make them sit and watch silently if you work on the computer for them and answer questions if you want. You're being taken advantage of and it;s not helping anyone except maybe you a little as you find out ever more innovative ways to solve their issues.
Here's another thought - stop trying to fix their computer. Simply reformat the thing, patch it, and walk away. Let them have to go through the pain of fixing it up the way they like it - maybe with some ramifications they will begin to get a clue and understand the cause\effect that's going on here....
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
If you have to use Windows, make all normal users "Limited user" and don't tell them the Administrator password. Also have Updates install automatically. You don't even need a virus scanner of some sort to keep the system going for years. I've been doing this for 8 years now.
Good luck!
There are probably 2 good ways of doing this. One cheaper than the other. One way would be to build a full blown "client/server" network w/a dedicated server as a domain controler then give them all restricted accounts. This could be a little expensive since you have to have a dedicated computer w/a server O/S (Win2003 or 2008) etc. But you can lock down the accounts pretty good. And you can manage all or their acconts from that central location, which is very convenient. The other way would be to buy a copy of VMWare and build virtual machines for them. Then make backups of all of the virtual machines. Then if they trash the virtual machine, you just copy back the original and in effect, they have a new computer. This is much cheaper than setting up a client/server network and easier too.
You should suggest that they adopt an orphan from Bangalore.
That is exactly what I did.
I switched back to the Mac.
All my friends started to slowly switch to the Mac. But, as Mac users, they never ask for help.
My father refuses to switch away from Windows 2000. I just tell him that I have not used Windows for 4.5 years.
Dave Barnes 9 breweries within walking distance of my house
It's been said elsewhere here, but I'll repeat and try to add my own perspective.
You have to create an incentive for them to change their behaviour. If everytime I forgot to put oil in my car and it broke down, my mechanic either got it working or replaced the engine for free for me, I'd probably never touch another quart of oil.
Same with your family. They say they're too old to learn, etc. In my experience, any time anyone says they "can't" learn something, what they really mean is that learning is hard and they don't want (or can't summon the will) to put forth the effort.
Don't call them lazy for this; its a basic human trait. It makes sense, as an intelligent being, to pick and choose your fights.
So, what you need is an incentive; some way for them to "feel your pain" from this issue, to make it personal to them again.
My gut feel is send them to geek squad next time it happens; one or two $150+ invoices from those guys will drive the level of effort involved home to dear old dad... I realize that most peoples aren't the asshole I am personally though, so that may seem like a less than tenable idea.
I saw someone else post that you should just charge for your own time. If Geek Squad (or local equivalent) is out, you probably won't feel good about charging them, too. Or worse, you'll charge them like you were burger flipping. The knowledge and skills you developped to be able to triage and repair these kinds of problems took more than an hour training video to learn, and certainly take more mental energy than waiting for a microwave to beep, so why would you charge the kind of money you would pay someone like that? If you're going to charge family to fix their computer, and you're doing it to make a point, you should probably charge "full amount", whatever you feel like that should be.
Assuming you're too much of a pussy to send them to Geek Squad, and too much of a nice guy to want to charge them the right amount, then we're onto the third option; lowered expectations.
I find that many times life is much simpler when you purposely lower the expectations of others. Your wife drags you furniture shopping, or worse, sends you to do it yourself, when your color-blind idea of interior decorating consists of putting up college team penants on your wall over the bar? Easy. Pick the most horrendous example of poor choice possible. Endorse it enthusiastically, act confused if anyone says anything that indicates they don't agree with your opinion that this is the finest possible example of modern seating style. After a couple experiences like that, she will NEVER ask you to pick out another couch.
A similar idea could be applied here. Sure, you'd love to help out with the computer! Hmm, no I don't have it fixed yet, I'm still trying to see if I can rip this virus out. Yeah, I thought I'd run a scandisk, make sure there weren't any errors before I do the reformat. You know, I was thinking your issue might've been caused by a bad graphics driver, so I thought I'd look around tonight and find a better one to load on the machine. etc. Turn a 1 week fix into a month. Try to ensure the computer is unusable or marginally usable for as long of that period as possible.
I guarantee their interest in avoiding that situation in the future WILL increase.
I have had the similar situation, How every I would beg to ask a simple question. 1) If your getting Malware and Viruses why haven't you installed better anti-virus and anti-spam? My parents Motherboard died and all they do is surf the net and e-mail so I installed Ubuntu and thunderbird. They were really happy and with openoffice they are currently learning how to use it. They bought a newer machine and it has windows now on it so they are back to that but they did have a positive experience with Ubuntu and Linux in general. I would ask them to spend the money on a active scanning Anti-virus and Anti-Malware software. And of course have them use Firefox as a browser!!!
With family and Windows, the computer *will* collect trojans viruses, etc. like crazy. I totally agree with the parent, and emphasize that the key is having an image of the partition with OS and apps. The Data/user folders are on a separate partition/drive.
Make a bootable auto DVD with an image of the OS+Apps partition in a clean known state with all the apps they want installed with all the settings they want, etc. Update this image every 3- 6 months or so for them, working from the clean image, and adding updates and new apps they might want. Booting into the DVD will restore or allow a restore of the clean image.
If something goes wrong, the family members can just reboot into DVD, get the OS back to the normal known state without losing data. They will lose any apps and settings they have installed since the last time you made a known state DVD. That's ok, any stuff they installed they can always install again (since they did it themselves), and what they recently installed was probably the flaky app/game causing the problem anyways.
This has saved me lots and lots of time, and I use it for my own Windows computers also. There is a lot of peace of mind knowing that you can totally hose the system and get it back into a clean state easily. Family members who are not computer-literate do not apply tech well, not because they are stupid, but because they are afraid of breaking something. A computer is very complicated, and the difference between a tech-savvy person and a noob is that the tech-savvy person has gradually learnt what is safe to change. Having a known state to go back to gives family a much better sense of security to learn from.
At the risk of promoting my own work... I recently started http://netsafetyguide.com/ to address these kinds of situations. The goal of the site is to offer down-to-earth, practical news and tips about Internet safety and security. One of the tips that you will find there is to use limited (non-administrator) accounts for the untrained/uninterested users. Moving my teenagers to these accounts greatly reduced my frequency of reformats.
I'm committed to the Mac approach, with the addition of using LogMein for remote access and control. My father, now in his 80s, has used Macs that I have given him or bought with my siblings going back to System 7 days. He's on OS X now with a Mac mini. There is always some little thing that troubles him and I've found that by having LogMeIn running all the time allows me to connect to him from my OS X system and talk him through the solution or correct toolbar problems he has in Excel (the old PowerPC version) easily and quickly. No viruses, no antivirus software, few hardware issues in any of the five Macs he's had over the years. Usually it just works.
I've told the story before, but last October I installed Ubuntu 8.10 on my in-law's laptop and haven't had a call back since. Just had to set up their mail in Evolution and everything else worked: internet and printing.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
I got my wife a Mac and the tech support nearly stopped.
Watch it start again once she installs one of the various Darwine packages in order to use some Windows-exclusive program that she needs.
I've had similar issues with friends of ours where their daughter would be on AIM and download / click links / what have you on the internet. I got tired of helping them out that I went ahead and installed my spare license of VMWare and created a persistant machine with AIM etc for their daughter and taught her how to use it. Never heard of an issue again.
I also instead of VMWare or VirtualPC started to use http://www.returnilvirtualsystem.com/ it is free for home use and loads what is needed into memory and once you reboot the machine is then back to where it was before this program was started. This has helped a bunch with creating a nice shortcut it launch this then IE for my parents and just remind them to reboot.
Or, simply:
* Switch them to a Mac
Stop fixing it. Send them to Geek Squad or some other 3rd-rate repair shop where they will pay $200+ to have their system cleaned.
Once they understand the cost and hassle associated with their mistakes, they'll be more inclined to avoid them in the future.
If, for social reasons, you can't simply tell them to get it fixed themselves, then just ignore calls or fall off the face of the Earth for a few weeks the next time they screw up their machine.
Would they expect a mechanic or artist friend to fix their car or paint a piece for the living room for free? If your family works this way then maybe you do have an obligation, otherwise this is their problem---especially once they're on the umpteenth infection.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Mistake: Being interested in fixing the computers. You now doomed to a long, mind numbingly dull, corporate IT existence to which there is no escape.
Have you looked into FloH Club?
There are many good suggestions on here but let's face facts... Some simple webpages will infect your family, infections are hard to avoid... Set them up as non Admins on their PC's and make an image using Acronis or Ghost. (Acronis is great). Set a small portion of the C drive as system and point their Docs at a folder on a second partition, and point anything else they might lose in a re imageing scheme there too. Make sure the Images you create are on D or a second drive. Then show them how to restore their PC's (takes less than 4 minutes if you set it up right). Voila, with that simple one time setup I keep more than just my family up and running...
End of Line.
I completely agree with the, "Get them a Macintosh" suggestion.
Look, stupid people (and I only mean "stupid" in terms of technology) shouldn't be allowed to run a Windows PC. They're going to idiotically install "Virus Protection" software every time they're prompted to do so, and YOU'RE going to be the one spending countless hours trying to clean up their dumbassness. And it's going to happen over and over and over again.
Further, people that moronic aren't going to be able to handle Linux installations, either. Or virtual instances of Windows IN Linux installations. All of that adds complexity that these sort of people will NEVER be able to handle properly. And guess what? YOU'LL be the one getting calls to fix shit, yet again.
So if you're going to be honest about it, the complexity of Linux means it's out for your average dumbass computer user. And Windows' troubles with trojans, viruses, and the like means it's out.
So just get a Mac. You've basically NO worries with spyware/malware/viruses, it's a relatively easy user interface, and it just runs. That doesn't mean you'll stop getting calls to fix things, but the frequency of these calls will be *greatly* reduced.
If you're running Windows, you might take a look at this page on securing Microsoft Windows. It might not SOLVE the problem, but it might help.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
My grandfather has similar problems. He's very particular about where his icons are, and uses some specialized software (he's on the computer at least as much time as me every day, surfing the internet, watching videos, emailing, etc.) but doesn't deal well with change or self support. So, he got an external hard drive and a copy of Norton Ghost. I have it setup to do weekly images of the drive. That way, if he gets a virus, whatever, I just go back to a previous revision that is virus free.
Another alternative to this would be a Mac with Time Machine. If all they do is internet and school related tasks, a Mac really is an easy solution. More expensive, yes, but it works. Slap an external hard drive on there, turn on Time Machine, and bam, instant backup using revisions. And the key word here is easy. Realize that even though you can fix their issues, the amount of frustration and aggrevation on your parents part, in addition to the amount of time spent to fix/restore the OS every 8 months likely justifies the extra money in switching. Also, what happens if you move or are otherwise unavailable to fix the PC? What if it breaks the day after you leave for a two week trip? What about the risk of identity theft? Just a few things to consider when making computer buying choices (or whether or not you should get antivirus.)
My initial setup of there computer goes something like this: I set up windows to have updates automatically downloaded and installed I use Avast Anti-virus that will automatically update if it finds a connection (once a year I have to get a new registration code) I use Open DNS, and set in on the router so that all PC's have protection Then I use something like PC Decrapifier to remove the junk that company's install on PC's Then I install the apps they need (aol, open office, paint.net, gimp, Picassa, ext) after that I warn them about not installing apps on there PC. (they do anyway) I know that everyone has there own way of organizing things (if they want everything on there desktop, whatever) so long as they keep all of there files in the normal folders (so when I have to do an update or a reinstall, or a backup of there data, everything is in a easy location) Its amazing the cultural differences between the "Tech Generation" and its parents. The parents want the ability to do everything the people who already learned the tech to do, but are not willing to invest the time or effort that the younger already put into it. You don't expect to walk into a car and just drive it, if you've never learned. The same holds true with the PC. It comes from experience.
Look maybe this is a bad way to look @ it but I am a network admin. I will not let my family do anything on there own computers. I have VNC running on all their boxes and I set them up with windows permissions that don't let them do a whole lot. If you don't want a domain controller; use the local permissions. If you have to be a network admin than be a network admin. take away all the stuff that they can use to screw things up it is that simple
For the kids set up their login accounts as non-administrator so they can't install anything (same for irresponsible adults).
All users get their own account and password. So no easy click route to admin.
Screen saver set to Set up the PC (including all the programs they need and all their email accounts set up) then do a system image to a DVD set or HD that you keep safe - much quicker to reinstall the PC that way.
Auto windows update and install and auto virus killer scans and updates.
Cross loop or some other desktop sharing session to help remotely.
When ever vising them take 10 minutes out of the visit to sit down at the PC to check virus and auto updates are still in effect and ask them for any issues they've been having.
Repeat offenders who demand admin rights (and then proceed to mess up their pc again and again) get longer and longer waits for the "repair".
Those who have demonstrated responsibility get treated to hardware upgrades and help with setting up new/additional software they might enjoy.
First of all tell dad (and the 26 year old, if male) to stay the hell away from the porn sites. (That should make your mom more vigilant if she's in the picture.) Viruses generally come from 3 things: Porn sites, Warez sites and emails from idiot friends who also don't know any better. Make sure they have a firewall and a virus that scans and updates daily. Make sure the virus checker is set to automatically either heal or move the file to quarantine. Make sure the virus checker can't be shut down without a password (which only you know). Just in case family wants to turn it off because it's interrupting their browsing. I'm not sure what OS you have, but there are ways to prevent people from installing any software unless you the admin. They do this all the time in business. That might be the best way to prevent stuff getting on there, although it will annoy the hell out of everyone and they will want you to come over and install stuff every time they get an new program.
Get some type of parent block up for the nine year-old. I would create a separate login for everyone. That will also let you know who the real culprit(s) are!
Once you get the computer up and running make an image of the hard drive. Let them know that you will NOT be trying to non-destructive fix it next time. You'll just re-image it and bye-bye to their files. And stick to it. There's helping family, but I think the problem is more that they know you'll work your ass off to fix things and so any advice you give them will go in one ear and out the other. I can promise you that will happen anyway with the 9 year-old. Even if you do try to explain viruses and not to open attachments, etc., chances are they're not going to remember anything you said after you leave.
I have an 83 year-old mom who surfs the net. Even she doesn't get viruses or malware, not to mention the amount your family's getting. They're going places they don't need to be going. Even with mom, I have to watch. One day she told me she had a Google email account. I asked her why. She didn't know why she needed it--it turns out DirecTV "told her to" (I'm sure what they were actually saying was you could get a free email account if you didn't have one.)
It's tempting to say, "If DirecTV told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it...." But I didn't...she has a cane, after all.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
I used to have this problem too, but switching to Mac OS X myself and becoming a it of an evangelist I found that if I could get my friends to switch, my "support call" requests just dried up. I think I've even lost a pair of "friends" who used to call me at least twice a year for an invitation to "dinner" which usually involved an evening of trying to unpick the mess their XP install had got into. I switched them 3 years ago, gave them some starter instruction to get them going and haven't had a call from them since.
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I know that this wouldn't have worked for you that time because you were precisely trying to configure the Internet access. But once that's up and running, get her to turn on "Screen Sharing" in the "Sharing" system preference panel, and to configure the VNC server in that panel. Then you will be able to access the computer using a VNC client.
Of course you need to tell her to activate Screen Sharing when you are going to help her and to turn it off after you finish so that she won't risk getting hacked (as with any VNC server). Also, you need to configure port forwarding in her wireless router, but that is not Mac specific at all.
Now, you may want to make yourself a favor and get a Mac mini. With a Mac on your side you won't need to activate the VNC server nor configure the router, because you can simply use the Screen Sharing feature of iChat.
No I don't like macs. I hate them in fact. But after going through this with my dad several times, I finally told him I would not help with his computer unless he chose a different os. We tried kubuntu (then later ubuntu) for a couple of months but he never really took to it. I was constantly answering questions and trying to find him software for various things. Then I conviced him to buy a mac. I spent a few nights the first week at his house explaining how to connect to the wifi in his house and installing the usual suspects (OO org, firefox, picasa, thunderbird etc.) but after walking him how to transfer files to and from his phone, I have not answered any questions since. That was over a year ago!!! I have since repeated the process with his wife, my wife, some cousins and other family members. I am so proud all my users are ditching their training wheels.
I'm surprised that this number is more than 1. After the first time reinstalling a friend/relatives PC to its' initial usable, I pull out my USB HD and a Ghost boot disk and immediately make an image. If they have problems that are unrecoverable again, I pull out the drive and let ghost do its work for an 1 or 2 and Viola, brand new pristine machine, the only thing left to do is install the latest updates, and any other new software they are using and update my image for next time. If they have lots of documents, videos, etc. that they want to keep, I suggest they put it all under "My Documents" (so its easy for me to find and backup prior to re-imaging the drive). I have demonstrated that this is easy to do that a couple of them have acquired their own USB HD and handle this on their own now.
Of course they are! They have nothing to worry about. They don't HAVE to be careful.
First, they probably use IE. STOP.
Don't let them do this. Find a safer alternative. In this instance, I'd recommend Firefox.
I would then suggest you add in Ad-Block, Flash Blocker, and NoScript. That should do well to keep them pretty safe as they go around the web. Those 3 things I couldn't be without, personally. Last time I tried IE, I saw a quick popup come up that looked like a Windows dialog, that was just itching for me to click the button. Ugh.
Also, give them limited accounts. A lot of things need administrator privileges to run, so that's just another layer of protection that could help. If they want to install something, have them call you. This may also help them stop downloading random programs, like toolbars or free smileys or "free" games that come with .... unwanted extras.
An antivirus program, and firewall, would also be good choices, but you would want something that's... unobtrusive and user-friendly (noob-friendly). Many people would just allow everything, as it seems they currently are in your case.
You can tell them to not do something, but often, and sometimes without even thinkign about it, they'll do it anyways. Click a link in MSN/AIM, click on a pop-up window, download free smilies, whatever. And once that's done, its lights out.
Maybe if you charge the next time, after that they may be more reluctant to be so willy nilly. If they know their actions carry consequences...
I am so sick of this argument; mac this and mac that, your likeliness of infection happens to be low because their market share is low. I had family members using MAC thinking they were so safe and didn't bother to heed any of the "normal" safety practices. They just clicked at will. One day their system got infected, a particularily agressive infection the resulted in the system being inoperable. Often, consumer level MACs, don't include any system restore software (such was the case). They took it to an Apple certified repair shop; who then charged them nearly $500 to repair it.
Basically, you may feel safer with a MAC, but when you do run into problems its usually catastrophic. There are bad people out there, no matter what you do you will run into them; they will do damage... I know it sucks but that's the way it is.
Did that 5 years ago myself. All macs. It was the best gift to myself (that I gave them).
I feel your pain For some reason everyone in my family seems t odo the same. And yes now it is just purely a chore. I find that for my immediate family (parents and sister) i will fix theirs and just lock them down to normal practices. As far as my aunts and uncles it got so bad a while back ago that they would bicker about their computers to each other in the office they worked in. They got so bad the ywould call me while i was at work and bicker to me on the phone. I finally later discovered that a price tag of 200/hr for them would solve the issue.
I found the easiest way to decrease the workload from repeat offenders of the friends & family variety.
Tell the oldest male that uses the computer that the next time it happens, you're showing your mom/his wife the porn pages he's looking at.
Even if he doesn't start being careful with the websites he views, he won't ask you to fix it next time.
My father is 85, retired from the law. His Ubuntu install told him that an upgrade was available. So he followed the instructions and upgraded. I think that Linux distributions work well with older people who are used to reading and understanding written instructions and advice. Not nearly so good for the sort of people who have to have things "shown to" them.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
It's time to move out and find a new job.
Am I the only one whose family does _not_ have these issues? Until reading the replies to this post I would have called my family computer illiterate - but I've never had this much trouble. Sure, I've gotten questions regarding things they do not understand and I've had to take support calls, but I've never had these huge malware infections popping up every couple of weeks.
In the past two years, the only problems I can really remember facing: :)
Wiring the new addition for ethernet (I'm less expensive than the electrician)
Installing Windows XP on a computer that came with Vista (My father preferred XP - suprise
Cleaning one malware infection, a fake anti-virus notice that my mother did not understand - cleaned it out, she asked what happened and I explained it. I've seen those notices on her screen since, and she has closed them. She now knows the difference between the fake notices and the real notices from AVG.
Answering questions about what I suggest to use for a specific task - such as my mother trying to sync her blackberry with a calendar at home, as her office PC does not support it. (And the IT department will not let her install anything, despite that they bought her the phone)
I guess I'm just lucky. I should really go thank my family after reading all of this.
Duh? switch to Linux.
This is surely the best reason to encourage people to buy Macs.
"Sorry, I have no idea how to use your computer. Maybe you should call Apple?"
It wouldn't even be a lie. I have great difficulty with Macs; to me, basic tasks are totally unintuitive because everything is different from the Unix and Windows systems that I am used to. And, for some reason (*cough* fanboys) I have no desire to expand my knowledge in this area.
You're an immobile computer, remember?
I recommend abstinence. That's right. Tell them never to use their computer and it will be much safer.
I have VPN routers set up at each house that connect to mine. All machines are domain joined. I can use DameWare to remote control any machine. I use a centralized AV solution and WSUS to keep systems up to date. Essentially, I treat my family's PCs just like the PCs on my work network. I set them up so they stay automatically up to date and so that they are easy to remotely administer.
None of this is particularly expensive. VPN capable routers don't cost any more than normal routers... Netgear has one for $100. If you don't like the VPN router route, use OpenVPN and run it as a system service on each remote computer. WSUS is free. Centralized AV costs are little different than the equivalent number of single licenses. SBS Server is cheap, if you don't like the Technet permanent eval route.
All of this is done without paying for a Mac or teaching someone who doesn't care how to use Linux.
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9, 26, and ~50 year olds with no technical background cannot be expected to understand computer viruses, malware, adware, and implement safe computer practices.
The following is a list of measures I've taken w/ my family/relatives. It assumes users will not be depositing files in weird places, but will be clicking on everything they find on the Internet.
1. Partiton the drive and ensure user data is on the data partition (this way, majority of user created/downloaded data stays in a single location)
2. Take an image of C drive at installation. Store it safe. (This will speed up re-installs)
3. Internally mount a large USB stick (32GB is usually enough for a fresh install)
4. Schedule daily disk image copies to the internal USB stick (I use Macrium Reflect)
5. Install anti-virus utils (if possible, alerts should be mailed to you)
6. Lock down the computer.
7. Install VNC, check PC regularly and provide remote support. (if on-site, this may not be necessary)
8. If possible, use Linux (easier for remote updates etc, I use Ubu)
Insist that they use firefox with noscript - show them how this makes browsing the web fun again without all the clutter.
You gave yourself away with this one. Breaking functionality on all major website is not fun!
That's what I did in my house. We have 5 people and about 10 machines. All but 2 have Ubuntu.
The 2 windoze machines are used almost exclusively for games. Whenever the windoze machines
go bad (which does happen periodically), I just reformat.
All the important data and functions (documents, print serving, scanner, music serving, etc)
are on the Ubuntu machines. They just work. Never had a problem with them.
The least technically-oriented person in the house (50 year old woman) couldn't be
happier with Ubuntu. She uses firefox for web browsing, gmail for email, f-spot for photo
handling, and open office for word processing.
Ok, so here goes my reduction in tech support calls:
1) Switched the parents to Ubuntu. They loved it, eventually (once they figured out how to install software from the repositories themselves) the calls stopped. My parents are now living out the country and I hear them only once a month or so and usually it's: the computer still works! When they need tech support I guide them to whatsmyip.net and SSH into the box.
2) Switched the in-law parents to Mac OS X. Got an old PowerMac G4 from work and I installed all the goodies they need. That box hasn't had a single problem.
3) Gave my wife a Mac Mini and I have 3 PowerBook G4's (15" and 2 12", very cheap on E-Bay) laying around the house. Haven't had a single issue.
4) Aunt: Re-installed Windows XP, put an Antivirus, Spybot, Firefox w/ AdBlock etc. on it. Installed OpenDNS updater and put the OpenDNS servers in their routers, then blocked Adware sites, Malware and Porn from their DNS services. This has been holding up for a good month or so now.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
And he's right, kinda. It's the easy but expensive way.
I bought an used CRT iMac for my grandparents for basic web browsing couple of years ago. Last year, when my other grandfather needed a laptop to replace his ten year old PC, I suggested him to buy the cheapest MacBook available. And this week my mom needed a new computer to replace her ancient laptop, I suggested her a MacBook, too. Guess why?
Even they're expensive, they're really the "install and forget" kind of computers, if automatic updates and firewall are configured. I guess I could buy a cheap Acer laptop and install Ubuntu on that, but I just don't have time for troubleshooting all the issues that might arise. And yes I have tried, thank you for asking, installing various versions of Linux to friends or family, but there's always some little glitch that takes just too much time troubleshooting. And trying to tell people that OpenOffice is just as good for home use as Microsoft Office...
Just my 2 euro cents.
People here are recommending one of the following FUCKING STUPID approaches:
1) Force your family to switch to Mac or Linux
Just awful. All of a sudden they can't run the software they want to and that they're use to. This is a lot like a doctor who when asked to help a patient with a cold pulls out a gun and shoots the patient. No more life = no more cold. Problem solved. Oh and if you do it with a Mac, the gun has a fancy handle and costs double what a normal gun does. Your family will resent you (One of the stories was about being taken to court over it). This is not a clever solution
2) Refuse to do support
Friends and family resent you because they've done things for you but now that it's your turn to do something for them you've decided you're above it. What's more they KNOW you can help. For some social misfit geeks their willingness to help is one of the few things that endears them to family and lets them see that you're intelligent despite having the social skills of a retarded sloth.
3) Make some dumb arse attempt to lock down their account and walk away
Just fantastic. If they did this to you at work you'd quit because you know it doesn't work well on Windows but you're happy to inflict this kind of crap on your relatives and walk away secure in the knowledge that they won't even know the problems they see are caused by a lack of admin privs.
None of the above answers make sense. So what does?
1) Offer to fix the computer but don't drop everything and go running to fix the damn thing every time they break it. Instead arrange a time 2 weeks down the road to fix it (You can make an exception if something is genuinely urgent so long as it's not genuinely urgent every time you're asked to fix it).
2) Offer to help them avoid the 2 week delay to have their computer fixed by showing them how to avoid viruses etc. All of a sudden there's a very good reason to learn how.
3) If the above doesn't work gradually increase the amount of time to 3 or 4 weeks for each time you have to clean their computer. Don't go overboard but at the same time let them know that you would like to help but that your time is valuable and that you can't just drop things and fix the machine.
4) If they say they can't learn be positive and encouraging. Tell them if they learnt to do the things they want to on the computer they can also learn how to do the things they have to to keep it running. Be patient and show them how. Video tutorials aren't appropriate. Schedule a time as described above and sit down and teach them. It's important to let them know that using a computer is all about continuous learning. Bring about the change positively instead of doing it like a social retard.
5) Don't just fix the computer and walk away. Take the opportunity to spend some time with your relative and hang out. Do something with them after the computer is fixed or arrange something social for another day so that it's not JUST about you fixing the computer.
6) The only technical bit of advice. Encourage them to keep their data somewhere separate to their OS and teach them to back their data up. Hopefully this will make blowing a machine away and starting from scratch less of a problem.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
When my dad has PC problems, I tell him to bring it over, and that it will take a few weeks, and that I'll call him when it's done. I don't work on it unless I am already at my desk doing something else. That way I can get work done while waiting for his machine to reboot. The length of time that I take, combined with knowing that he has to make a trip to my house to drop it off and pick it up, keeps him from using me much. So, next time they have a problem, be sure to leave their machine out of commission for a week or two. If you finish and they have more problems, tell them to bring it back and that it will be another few weeks.
Eventually they'll stop using you, as it will no longer be convenient. I do the same thing with friends, "Go ahead and drop it off, and I'll try to find some time to get it up and running. It'll probably be a couple of weeks, because I'm pretty busy." If they say something like, "Can you tell me when you'll have time?" Answer, "No, I don't have much time, I'm just going to have to fit it in when I get a chance." If they get pushy, just tell them you don't have any time, or it'll be next month.
If they try to get answers over the phone, just keep repeating that you don't know until they get the hint.
I've found that saying no can sometimes really upsets people, but taking a few weeks to fix it doesn't. And you're guaranteed that after taking a few weeks they won't be bringing it back any time soon.
IF the kids play games then likely they will need to be admin to be able to run them and some of the anit cheat stuff forces them to be admin as well.
Start with a fresh windows install, install everything that they need, configure it how they like it, and take an image. Set up their files to be stored on a separate partition.
I tried the switch-them-to-mac route. It delayed the support requests for a longer period of time, but when an issue finally came up (the entire OS running 'slow' or sometimes it can't get online) I could do very little to correct it. At least Windows is fixable. OSX operates as more of an inigma, especially when Apple releases an update that straight up breaks it (airport, keychain, etc).
We can't win this.
If you some years to wait it out, you could try to really build up the IT industry to a younger relative (maybe a nephew or a niece) about how awesome it is. Once they're convinced that this is the job for them, encourage them to start practicing! Route any and all requests to said younger relative saying "they could use the practice" and convince your parents (or other relatives that call on you) that you're just not that on top of the current trends any more.
Rinse and repeat. Hey, it works!
I charge friends and relatives.
$25 an hour for PC. $5 for Mac.
Many times I'll waive the fee, but it helps cut down on unnecessary questions.
Mom gets support for free.
The Mac advice doesn't help when they go out and buy a Sony camcorder with no Mac software, and no Firewire port (which would work with the software Apple does have.)
The worst part? Some jerk at the Apple store talked them into that particular model! "Genius" my ass.
Comment of the year
that a request for materials to educate is met with the usual array of "Swtich to x OS", "Lock down the system", and "Deal with it". I'm sure somewhere out there is the answer to this man's question of attempting to improve the basic computer literacy of his family, but it's apparently not on Slashdot.
Telling family/friends/neighbors that every single thing on the Internet is a lie has been the most effective thing I've come up with. Especially for email - it is all a lie, a damn lie. (Note - it is especially fun to tell them this via email.)
That and switching my mom to a Mac has really saved me a ton of time. I'm no Mac fanboy, but they do just seem to work.
These days, computers cleanliness is just basic hygiene, so treat the consequence like any other infection. Quarantine it like any other diseased system. It'll either heal itself or you'll get to it when you get to it. You'll have to be a hard-ass for awhile, but they'll either learn some responsibility or find some other nerd to bully.
In other words, they are being very inconsiderate.
ongaurdonline.gov is chalk full of silly little games and quizzes your family might learn something from.
We do have our share of compter woes, in the past, I was the cause of a few. But, as I learned more, I shared what I knew with my parents. This helped them gain a better understanding of how viruses, computers and drivers all work. Now, I'm at school for IT, and I still do get the semi-frequent calls about simple computer problems. Recently, my parents got a new computer with Vista on it. It became infected by some unknown virus. During one of there desperate calls for help, I heard my father, perhaps one of the more computer-illiterate ones in my family, mention Windows 7. I jumped on the opportunity to offer them a free upgrade, provided that they hook me up with some groceries. A good deal, considering that the OS was only $30 with my student email. I upgraded the machine, gave them a copy of Office 2007, Firefox, and some other apps, and all has been well. I've also appointed my younger brother my semi-official assistant, as it's slightly easier to communicate more complex configuration tasks. My parents still retain ownership of the administrator account, and do basically understand the principles of safe computing. It's a system that works, and when it doesn't work, it gives me good practice for future cutomer support that I'm likely to do in my career.
If they don't ever install anything and just use the computer as it is and the software configuration never changes, I would recommend something like Deep Freeze. That way it doesn't matter what kind of spyware and junk they get on the machine, all it takes is a restart to get rid of it all and the machine is back to the way it's supposed to be.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Eliminate the three security flaws in your house.
Get a mac or install linux. Staying with Windows? You might want to see what Einstein said about people who do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
In your situation, a mac will pay for itself. If they don't want to learn to use linux, tell them to get a mac and be done with it.
Sure, they'll have to learn how to do a few things differently ... but they're obviously going to have to anyway, so have them bite the bullet one way or another and be done with it.
If you don't, or don't stand firm, you have only yourself to blame next time you waste a weekend.
Those who have Macs call me about once a year for a 20 minute Q&A, which takes care of things for another year.
Those who don't have Macs know not to call me, and they don't.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
If they insist on running windows put a decent anti-virus on the machine, and limit their user privileges.
If they won't let you limit their user privileges, and they won't let you install another OS, and they won't buy a Mac (which is designed to be idiot proof), quit, or make them pay you every time they break the machine until they quit breaking it.
Read the subject line carefully - "Bank of Arnerica" - it isn't spelled "B a n k [space] o f [space] A m e r i c a" either in the subject or on this line.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
BrainPop has a fun free video about computer viruses, worms, and trojan horses:
http://www.brainpop.com/technology/computersandinternet/computerviruses/
I particularly like BrainPop because the videos are appropriate for younger people and contain enough humor that they don't pander to adults. Have your family members watch this video so they better understand what a virus does to the computers and how they can avoid messing up their computers.
End of Line
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Teach them to download everything to a single source on the data drive to make scanning and root cause easier.
That phrase does not mean what you think it means .. The root cause of the issue is known, it is "stupid user"
http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTMC_80.htm
another idiot that just spouts buzzwords without knowing what they mean.
One time some guy paid me to fix his car. I took out the engine and replaced the whole thing with a box full of pinball machine parts. If he had put some effort into it I'm sure he could have assembled the parts into some sort of working electric motor, or maybe a time machine, but he just couldn't be bothered.
He got pissed and tried to sue me. Can you believe it?
Change them all to ubuntu. No joke. I did this with my dad because XP froze every 6 months, same for my uncle, same for my sister, brother, 3 brothers in law and a grandmother in law. Only one of them is tech-savy, yet they all stopped calling me for tech support. I called here and there just to make sure everything was working and it was. They are all very happy. Problem solved.
Yes they can't run windows apps, but the huge inconvenient of windows sucking so bad (viruses, anti-virus hammering the system, instability etc) was a worth while trade off.
My tech support load is 10x lighter with ubuntu than windows. I am free now to do other things.
Having a provisioned thin client woudl be best, if there is a problem, just reboot and stream the image. No need to worry about a virus.
I was in the same position, till I made my father, father-in-law, and mother-in-law all switch to Mac. (and my wife switched when we got married... she had no choice)
A few support issue right after they got their respective Macs, almost none since then.
Never a virus nor ever any had a hardware issue.
How would that break functionality on major websites? I have worked with many a technically illiterate person and showed them how to use facebook, myspace, and the like without difficulty while using Firefox / Noscript.
The only sites that I have to use IE for are work related and windows update. Other than that, I don't think there's a site I use that won't work under Firefox / noscript. Sometimes you have to tell noscript to allow certain scripts, but that can be narrowly tailored to just what's needed.
problem solved.. at least until linux malware becomes prevalent
This assumes your family doesn't have a ten to fifteen year investment in Windows hardware, software, and peripherals.
The peripheral can be anything from a multifunction printer to an embroidery machine or an Orion telescope.
The geek makes the computer his hobby. For others it's a tool.
If you break it, you've bought it.
The HTPC plays the Blu-Ray disk it was designed for.
iTunes. Rhapsody.
The gamer won't trade-in his ticket to Dragon's Age or WOW for the joys of Nethack.
You have to make it work. You have to make all of it work - or you won't be welcomed back.
I had the exact same problem except I was the tech support for my whole extended family. Aunts, Uncles, cousins, etc. I was constantly getting called to take of virus/spyware and windows driver issues. I reinstalled many of them to Ubuntu and Super OS and I rarely get called for tech support from them now. Everything just works and they are very happy.
The way i have been successful (somewhat) at getting my family to understand simple principles of habits on a pc,
is to compare it to a car.
You never would get into a car without a license, someone could stop you and this woudl get you a ticket,
dont go without AV software, cause you ll get stopped by your ISP if ever you get a malware and spam too much.
Also when you get into a car after driving lessons, you understand much more the techniques used in certain
emergency cases...uphill parking you turn you wheels against the curb to give extra parking stability...
same thing, when you are using your pc, and recognize telltale signs for infection, you know what to do in that situation...or what to look for...etc...
The analogies go on, I have yet to compile a list, but found it the closest quick IMPORTANT attention getter way to drive the point across. My granddad now uses AV app with his pc, and hasnt had a single problem especially not that it blocks everything
and lets him know, and he actually takes the time to go read up on the pop up messages sent by the AV software.
The goal is to ease the admin's life, not the user's, though the Mac should do both.
Besides, they support USB cameras now (in the crappy recent version of iMovie anyway).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Here is the link to an article on Cert.Org...It is very helpful and easy to understand for home users: http://www.cert.org/homeusers/HomeComputerSecurity/#thinking
After you get your family onto Macs, they literally stop calling you for tech support and start sending you photos and movies and Web pages they made. Macs are hackable by consumers and creatives as well as nerds. You give everyone a real shot at enjoying computing.
I don't see how you justify giving a Windows PC to anyone because of the viruses (7 runs 80% of XP malware, which means 16,000 malwares per day for 8 years. Security researchers recommend you don't do online banking with it because it picks your pocket. You might as well give a kid a 10-inch switchblade.
Over the next few years as the Windows PC continues to fade away you're going to need to provide even more tech support, not less. I just don't get how you let your family run PC's. It's like a cruel experiment. I'm so glad the generic PC time is almost over, what a sad thing for consumers to have to go to their nerd friends for help with a decades old consumer product. Fail.
does it really take that long to fix a problem?
I have found it quite quick and painless on dozens of occasions to just boot up to safe mode and run/install malwarebytes antimalware software (this software is free for non-commercial use) and running the program in quick scan works to eliminate even some of the worst malware on the computer (background change, force install of fake antivirus, fake computer scans, slow system) and can take less than a half hour of unattended running (full scan can take a couple of hours) and the software is easy enough that once demonstrated to a person they can usually run it in the future themselves.
also installing avg-free works great to stop a web browser from going to a harmful website while not slowing down the computer significantly like many other types of anti virus (avg is slow only for scans that can be set for late at night).
Possibly, but my parents have a PPC one, so that doesn't help them at all. Instead, they just cart the camera over to my place every time they need a DVD burned.
Even worse? It means I have to have the shitty Sony software *on my computer!* Sony somehow managed to make their camera incompatible with Windows Movie Maker. Bastards.
Comment of the year
I had the same issue. I was forced to reformat and do a fresh install every 12 months.
Finally I did a fresh install with all the software they use (itunes, messenger, firefox, etc). Then I made them use the GUEST account. Tell them they wont even need a password; that usually makes them jump for joy.
This solved my problems. It has been 2.5 years since the last blow-up. I come home 3-4 times per year and remember to download/install patches. Norton runs a full scan weekly, and no problems have been reported.
The end.
Seriously, 9.10 has its rough points, but it's worth a try. I've just installed it for my mother in law, it runs Facebook games fine, so she's happy :)
It's far, far quicker than windows, and doesn't suffer from viruses to anything like the same extent. She was amazed at the simple things like how quickly it shuts down.
1; Clonezilla, after you set up a system that fits your perception of good, Clone it. 2. PC Backup, 3. Offline updater to be used after a restore from Clonzilla to bring a system backup up to date, http://knol.google.com/k/joseph-engel/c-t-projekte-offline-updater-ctupdate/3rk3lnsg4vprd/2# Naturally, you would want to re-clone after you bring a system up to date after applying a cloned image :-)
I have 2 kids constantly installing bloatware from Nickelodeon.com and other such kids places, and no level of user accounts are safe because they social engineer my Aunt to do anything they want. So, I installed VMWare Player and the Browser appliance, which is really just a light weight Ubuntu and Firefox, but it starts up a browser automatically, and told everyone that is *ONLY* way to get online. No more problems :)
Get them using Firefox. This is usually as simple as installing Firefox and changing the desktop icon label to say 'Internet Explorer'. They won't notice the difference. Now, install AdBlock Plus. This will take care of just about every pop up that causes viruses.
In the beginning, there was null.
Reload a fresh install image of the OS automatically every morning after redirecting "My Documents" elsewhere to save their files? There's a utility out there that does this but the name escapes me...
All they really want is web and email anyway.
If they are competent enough to own an ipod or iphone you might consider a Mac, because iTunes does not play well with Linux.
If all the anyone wanted was email and the web - then there wouldn't be a market for iTunes - or any other program, would there?
The user knows he is being attacked by the technically competent but amoral geek. He might reasonably ask why the geek isn't policing his own community better.
What he won't take kindly to is being called stupid.
This is genius. I'm imagining the same thing on "Car Talk":
Caller: Hi, I'm calling from BFE, Arizona. My 1998 Honda Accord has the following problem...
Tom: STOP RIGHT THERE! You need to sell that car, and get a Lexus. We only recommend Lexus.
Caller: Uh, well, I've got a problem here I was hoping you could solve instead of a $40k solution...
Tom: Well, you were too stupid when you bought that. Sorry. Just go get a Lexus. Problems solved!
Tom: Next caller!
If you need help with something business related, no you're not going to get it for free, end of story, it shouldn't even be thought that you would just offer your 'services' for free/reduced to basically nothing just because you're related, in the IT world time is money, I mean yeah sure let me work on your project for 2-3 hours for 15/hr when in that same time I could have had a real paying job making 150+/hr, lets see let me do the math... carry the one... yeah ok I'd rather make 450 bucks then 45.
And on the side note that she has a 'webservice' business, how the hell does she run it, if she can't even solve her own problems, where are her 'guys' at.
Why is common sense called that if it's not common?
Much of this has already been said, but I'll reiterate and add my own extensions to it:
1.) If you're working for free, even for family, IT MUST BE ON YOUR TERMS. "I will continue to fix your machine for free if and only if you use it under these conditions...and yes, I WILL know if you're deviating. If you do, you'll get a bill at the end, the same as anyone else". Make sure you have those terms in hand, printed out, and posted near the machine for them to reference.
2.) If they need to be kept on Windows for some reason...
a.) I recommend Microsoft SteadyState or Faronics DeepFreeze (the former being free), and either a secondary document partition or a secondary hard disk (for the $40-$80 it costs for a second HDD, I tend to go with that) to which their profile is stored. If they're using Win7, redirect all the libraries there as well.
b.) Grab a copy of Acronis True Image and make a disk image the next time you format. This will reduce the amount of time you spend rebuilding, especially in conjunction with having their user profile on the second drive. While Acronis is still my favorite disk imaging product, Win7 also has made huge strides in their backup utility, which can create a disk image that can be restored using the install CD.
c.) Check out ESET's NOD32 Antivirus program. It's very effective, doesn't bog the system down, and can be password protected to ensure that it doesn't get disabled. If possible, bill it to YOUR credit card and have the key sent to YOUR e-mail address. This way, you can ensure that it is always up to date, and you can say with confidence that if anything tells her that she's got a virus and to pay to remove it that it is a scam, since you are absolutely certain that she is covered.
d.) As has been said, no Admin for them, period.
3.) If you're going to go the Linux route...
a.) I've had the most success with Linux Mint with regards to user acceptance.
b.) It might take an entire Saturday, but check to make sure that EVERYTHING works properly! See how the system is set up BEFORE you wipe it. Do your best to mimic this setup as best you can before you sit them down on it the first time.
c.) Are they running at a lower resolution so they can read the print? Does it appear that they rely on some Windows-only apps that will require WINE or some kind of VM? Do all of their peripherals work properly? Is their hardware properly detected? Does their wireless card's Linux drivers support the encryption type that the router does? Do they make extensive use of Publisher or a greeting card program (that was the dealbreaker for my mom that brought her back to Windows)? Ask all these questions and then some, first. Us technically inclined people are better at "finding concepts" rather than "finding commands". "Screen Show" and "Slide Show" are close enough for us, but my mom near killed me when I had her try OpenOffice...and she reached for the knife when there was no "My Documents" folder for her to save it in.
You've heard from all the I-got-my-whole-family-to-switch-to-a-Mac people here, so I think that ground has been pretty well covered.
You threaten to cut them off if they don't do the following:
1. They never ignore the anti-virus you install. (So many times I see users with problems and they have an anti-virus that's disabled, or no longer updates or some shit like that).
2. They stop browsing for illegal software.
3. They stop installing any old dumb application that sounds appealing but came to them through some pop up ad or similar.
4. Ignore and not click on emails from people they don't know.
Make it clear they gotta follow those rules or they will no longer get free tech support.
Look, I have a mother and a sister with computers and neither of them are computer experts. Awhile back, spyware and junk was a big problem until I got them both to use Firefox. Ever since it has been no problem. Both of them have local admin rights and I only get called when there's a hardware problem (hard disk failure, fan loud, etc.) I don't mind that.
If you can't give them a few points of advice and have them listen, they're taking advantage of you. It's relatively easy to keep a reasonable computer system. Just don't download shit. That's all. They download shit, and they get screwed, and they don't care that you told them not to. If they learned how to make a bowl of cereal, they can NOT download something.
So, take away their admin rights. Make them normal user accounts, and when they want to install something they'll have to ask you.
It will solve 99% of your problems.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
for your family.... Your time is worth it.
My kids use my Macbook laptop, and have never managed to get it in any trouble. But their XP-based desktop machines need to get reinstalled from scratch every 3-6 months or so. Perhaps a bit less since they've learned to be quite careful, never run IE (always use Firefox), and don't click on random attachments (too often; they're kids).
Windows is fundamentally a piece of junk -- programs come with insecure scripting languages, and the OS itself is modified by most good installations. It can never get better without writing off the backwards compatibility that is MS's lifeblood.
I used to have the same problem, but norton ghost saved my life. Once installed and running, do a backup and write in a paper instructions to restore it. Then live your life free.
and they'll have to buy a new one or bring it to a professional. They have no incentive to stop their current behaviour.
Viruses generally come from 3 things: Porn sites, Warez sites and emails from idiot friends who also don't know any better.
Or infected / hacked websites which serve up exploit code using Flash/Javascript. Or malicious ads placed on ad networks that serve reputable sites. Or SQL injection attacks against reputable sites that insert exploit code into every dynamically served page.
It's no longer responsible to trust every site out there except for what folks consider to be the shady side of the net. The attackers have gotten smarter and are infiltrating the not-so-shady side.
(Of the infections that I've dealt with over the past few years. The vast majority have been drive-by types where malicious Flash/Javascript infect the machine. And I can look back at the Squid server logs and see that it was a non-shady website that did the infection. Most have been the type where the attacker inserts their Javascript directly into the static HTML pages on the website.)
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
No. Stop blaming the users and place the blame squarely where it belongs: Microsoft.
This is not a hard problem to fix. I've long ago moved my elderly mother, my mother-in-law and my kids to Linux. Ubuntu Just Works. They don't care whether it's Linux or OS X or Windows; they're using Firefox to browse the Web, and Facebook is Facebook on any platform. A desktop is a desktop is a desktop. Operating systems are irrelevant until they start creating trouble for you, and Windows is a constant source of trouble.
The Mac is a reasonable solution but not if you already own the computer, and it offers no real net advantage over Linux. (I am running Ubuntu in preference to OS X on my MacBook.)
Hassle-free remote support is also possible on Windows with TeamViewer. It's a free service for personal use, which I use all the time for helping friends and family with computer issues. Best of all there is no firewall/NAT configuarion required, just run the util on both PC's and voila.
Plus the excessive cost of buying a mac basically makes a PC a FRU -- considering in most cases you can get two PC's for the price of one mac.
I used to run into such issues when I left my parents as the admin of their XP machine. I've since learned my lesson and have them login as a regular user. I also run NOD32 on their box. Since then I haven't had a single issue!
... I can feel it.
The OP, talking about how sad that stability is an add-on, should never arise considerations about bundling or not.
The sad part is that Windows is therefore defective by design.
And people like you think that is acceptable...
Remember, M$ == evil.
My life is much better since all the people who ask me for technical help got macs. If you can afford it, just buy them one (and require them to surrender the Windows machine in exchange for it).
My mom did manage to delete an app on her mini once, but Time Machine made that reversible.
They pay me to deal with Windows at work. I don't want to do that at home too.
If you'll note carefully, we're not talking about the average user. We're talking about a techie guy setting up a computer for someone else. As it turns out, my elderly parents do just fine with Wine - I set them up with a desktop shortcut that launches Peggle for them.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Set it up with the essential programs including Firefox and plugins. Install Adblock. Apply your hosts file. Set up the firewall. Install antivirus set to automatically update and quick scan daily, automatically fixing any problems it encounters. Set Windows, Java, Adobe (Reader and Flash), Quicktime and so on to automatically download and install updates. Arrange an appropriately frequent automatic backup of the My Documents folder (exclude Videos and Music if using a thumbdrive). Uninstall Outlook and tell them to use web based email.
Image the drive.
Now leave them to it. Do not feel obliged to solve their problems a the drop of the hat. I don't mean to be unreasonable, but rather to apply reason! As always, using a car analogy can make the situation clear. What action would you take if the problem was with their car? People tend to completely exaggerate computer problems in scope, importance and immediacy - like you have to come over RIGHT NOW because they can't play a flash video. Talk through how important the problem is and when they really need it to be fixed by and then schedule it at your convenience, as if you were going to fix their car.
People have this weird void when it comes to computers. Smart, sensible people cannot figure out silly things like checking the cable is plugged in when the keyboard doesn't work. The same person will call me and complain like it's my fault when their computer I advised them against (and subsequently never touched) has a problem, yet they will offer an evening of beer, pizza and movies if I help decorate, or offer to pay me to help them with their tax return.
I once spent 3 hours fixing a flatmates computer (including donating a RAM stick) and just as I was finishing he went into the kitchen to make a cup of tea, came back and complained it was my turn to do the dishes.
Tell them that if they will let you install and lock down linux and work remotely, you will do family tech support gratis but that windows tech support is gonna cost. Offer a discount on windows tech support if they agree to sit by your side and not leave while you fix the problems. (And they have to listen to your rants and beefs.)
Give that a go and see if it helps any.
all the best,
drew
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
However, if you're still willing to subject yourself to it, look to corporate IT. they are the gold standard for maintaining stupid people's computers. Personally, I'd build a slip-steamed USB drive that you can plug in and have automatically rebuild a computer. Also, I'd consider looking to see if there are any tools you can use to dump a rediculiously restrictive policy on the computers. Finally, depending on the types of computers, you may want to consider looking at some of the desktop-type virtualization technologies. That way when they screw up their computer, you can just dump the VM back on.
I personally used an MSDN license to pull a copy of windows SBS and a few copies of windows pro. I joined everything to the domain and then centrally manage. Turn VPN on on their home router and you can simply VPN in, remote desktop to the server, and push the fix to the computers. (Personally, I don't know why MS doesn't offer a stripped down version of SBS for home use designed to allow a parent or such to manage all the computers in the house without going to each one individually...)
I do security
I installed Ubuntu to head off a lot of these problem but he refused to use it.
It doesn't matter if it's friend, family or client.
It doesn't matter if your are working for a cold beer and a plate of pretzels or charging twice the going rate for your "professional services."
You never make fundamental changes without asking.
Without informed consent.
If I ask you to secure and return my Windows system -
I expect you to secure and return my Windows system - not to replace it with whatever Linux distro and Open Source apps that suit your fancy.
"What part of "No" didn't you understand?" That is as sound a way for a judge to approach a suit for breach of contract as it is when he considers a charge of rape.
I used to think "just have them buy a Mac" would make my family stop asking me for help. Instead, they ask for even MORE help since it's such a weird, foreign landscape for them. Think of it this way...people who suck with computers and have spent 15 years getting dangerously competent with Windows now have to basically start over. It's not starting over for any tech savvy person to switch to a Mac, but for computer morons like my family, it just opens more, NEW questions. Thankfully though very few of the questions deal with technical things I can't figure out, or I don't have the patience for.
My sister claims that I can fix a computer just by walking near it or looking over her shoulder when she's about to do something er... creative. Seems my nephew has the same ability.
It does save so much time.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Make a Ghost image. Re-image their box when needed.
Burn FAT not OIL
My approach, actually, is that if they have time to be surfing for cutesy screensavers on www.i-pwn-u.ru and follow links to www.xploits-r-us.ro and to re-confirm their ebay password 10 times a day, that's the problem: they have time. Forget addressing the symptoms, go for the root problem.
Me? I gave my parents WoW. Sure, it's just about as hard as giving them Linux, so you have to hit them when they're down. It's for their own good. I got mom when she was too sick to do anything else, and she contaminated dad from there. If that fails, mention that she can talk to you on group chat. It's funny what moms are prepared to do for a son as a captive audience :P
Fair warning, it takes some time investment. Be prepared to answer questions like, I swear to FSM I'm not making it up, "HOW DO I SWIM UP?? WHAT CAMERA? I DON'T HAVE A CAMERA TO ROTATE!! NO, I LOOKED IN ALL THE BAGS AND I DON'T HAVE A CAMERA!!! WHERE DO I BUY A CAMERA?" or, again, true to FSM quote, "HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS CAVE?? NO, I DON'T SEE YOU! I CAN ONLY SEE THE TOP OF MY HEAD AND MAYBE 3 FT IN FRONT AND TO THE SIDES!!"
I can see you're dying to ask, "but couldn't I just teach them to use Linux, or heck at least Mozilla in the same time?" Not so fast, grasshopper. This time they'll actually be willing to learn. In the same month you can teach them to play WoW like a pro, or you can be running in circles around "how do I start IE? This paypal password site says I need IE and Javascript" and "why does this taxform.xls.exe attachment not start when I click it???" if you gave them Linux.
Fast forward about a year, and they don't even have time to sleep. No, really, they're only recently up to 5 hours sleep a night. Surf for cutesy IE toolbars and install crap? Good grief, they don't even have time to shop for groceries outside of wednesday mornings. I think they even lost some weight, what with the occasional wednesday when the servers are back on from 5 AM.
Ah, life is good.
'Course, this might cost them a few years off the life expectancy, but it's you or them, really. The hours to support their computers would have probably added up to the same number of years of your own life. Ask yourself this, really: do you want to spend that time supporting them or grinding your own epic gear? Thought so.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
1. Nobody runs as admin. 2. Make an image of the computer at critical stages. Keep all data on a separate partition. When the PC becomes compromised, reimage as necessary. It's a lot faster than fixing it.
Family member: My computer is slow and full of viruses, can you do me a favor and fix it?
Me: Sure, unplug the "CPU" and bring it to me. It will take 1-2 hours, while you're waiting, you can do me a favor and clean my house.
Family member: Oh, snap.
A reliable source says:
Euthanasia!
This is by far the best post of the week. My hat is off to you. And I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
Give them options. They can
a) pay for tech support at a reasonable going rate; either you or someone else, but money needs to exchange hands. Lock down all browsers to not allow javascript or 3rd party cookies or ads or any adobe crap.
b) buy a Mac which will probably mean zero tech support for you.
c) learn to use Linux.
d) go on the way they are, but leave them with a Linux boot CD for emergencies. Then just forget to fix the computer for a few months and they will get used to Linux.
I provide tech support to my parents computer twice a year. I locked down IE and Firefox and removed Outlook. No viruses since I did this about 10 yrs ago (Netscape back then). Mom uses Quicken and an expensive stock market program, so only MS-Windows-something is an option. WINE doesn't work and running a VM with WinXP is too complex.
When I visit, it takes about 3 hours to clear and refresh their install. They do patch and update their software all year, but I wipe tmp files, clear the prefetch, defrag and run a disk optimizer. I've scripted much of this and asked them to run it monthly, but they lose the icon on their desktop.
Possibly, but my parents have a PPC one, so that doesn't help them at all. Instead, they just cart the camera over to my place every time they need a DVD burned.
Yeah, Apple abandons its own hardware every 10 years. We've got 5 years left on Intel. :)
Really, though, I understand an Intel mini is worth $350 on eBay. If they have a PPC mini they might get $150 for it from a guy wanting to run mythfrontend. Their machine is at least three years old, so maybe a $200 upgrade would be in the mix?
Even worse? It means I have to have the shitty Sony software *on my computer!* Sony somehow managed to make their camera incompatible with Windows Movie Maker. Bastards.
P'shaw, install linux so you can't help them! Really though, installing Sony software on your Windows machine? You're not new here.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Every six months you have to reformat all of your family's computers because they are loaded with viruses and malware? Seriously? That much, that often? What they hell are they doing? And do why haven't you set up any AV/anti-malware software? Are MS updates set to install automatically? They're obviously doing something very wrong, and so are you, if the situation is that consistently bad. Yes, even in the Windoze world. My own family is rather non-tech savy, though there is a lot of internet usage in their homes. Give them some simple explanations about email attachments, make sure auto-updates are on, use a decent AV package, and maybe set up Adaware or Spybot Search and Destroy. Firewalls are something to consider. If you are talking about multiple computers in one household, and you have any old (really old even) hardware to spare, a real, dedicated firewall might be in order - easy to set up and forget about, for a little extra piece of mind.
The other answer: switch them over to linux. Mint is very easy to use and comes with most of what they're likely to want. If there's a gamer in the house, have them dual-boot if they absolutely need to boot Windows. Tell them linux is superior for most things will protect them from identity theft, and their Windows setup is specially optimized for games, or whatever you think will convince them. And when it is time for new hardware, surely they'll seek your advice then, right? Maybe consider Macs.
I hate MS, but keeping those systems running reasonably smoothly should not be that difficult. Hell, I can do it.
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
is to make them pay a professional. after a few hundred dollars they will get better.
My family is smart enough not to need this sort of infantile hand holding, but I am to understand some people come from inferior stock.
Hmm, maybe I shouldn't reply to /. posts after role playing a dandy.
Tell them in the virtual world things are turned around. Instead of assuming trust, assume everyone has an angle to get you.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
man do they suck.
Here's what I did: I gave my brother my old Mac, and made him a regular user (instead of an admin), and I enabled remote access.
Sure, he has to call once in a while for new Apple updates or to install software, but it's locked down so it can't get messed up. Maybe a bit controlling, but he absolutely loves the result. He's thrilled to use the computer now, instead of dreading it like he did with his old Windows PC.
He recently got a hand-me-down iPhone too - and he loves it.
computer viruses, malware, adware
Viruses? Malware? Adware?
What are those?
Can you explain them to me? Pretend you are explaining them to someone who has no clue what they are.
(I run linux)
There's no place like
I applaud the belief that the older ones are still trainable, but it's clear that they're not going to change and any videos you find will be wasted. Accept that they're happy with the arrangement and they will not spend the necessary intellectual energy to remember anything you show them. They're codependent upon you. Use a little tough love and start cutting them off. Then they'll do one of two things: Learn, or find someone else to be dependent on. Hopefully the former, probably the latter. That 9-year-old will probably inherit the mantle as soon as he/she is ready, and I'm guessing he/she will be a lot more willing to learn from you and you won't need flashy videos.
If you've got the stomach for it, you can do as others have been suggesting and become a jerk when it comes to technical support. Not an in-your-face-I-think-your-an-idiot-jerk, but give enough push-back so that they realize that you're the last option, and not the first option, when something goes wrong. With my own mom I was able to wean her off my tech support by saying (semi)-gently, "You need to learn to do it for yourself." What happened instead is she switched to my younger brother, and when he left home, the next door neighbor. I still end up helping her on holidays, but I no longer get random phone calls to get pictures off her camera when I've never seen her camera before, or her latest computer setup, and she doesn't know how the pictures are being saved to her camera in the first place ("Does it have an SD card?" What? I have a charge cable that goes into the wall, will that help?).
Macs may reduce the spyware, but it's not going to eliminate your problem. I was visiting my grandmother last year who has a Mac and she couldn't figure out why her printer was doing weird things. In the printer tray was a sheet of paper that said, "Your computer has been HaXoRed by...." Grandma calls Apple tech support and loves them. But then she's also got the cash to do that kind of thing.
Don't install Linux or an alternate OS unless you WANT to be the only go-to-guy for tech support. Keep it Windows and the pool of other people to help them is larger. Anyone that embraces the concept of Macs in a Windows world, or the geek-factor of Linux, usually has some desire to learn things on their own, which doesn't sound like your group.
Most of what you need for a STABLE & SAFE Windows system? IT IS ALREADY IN THE SYSTEM! It's part "security hardening", & part "behavioral modification" online...
(AND, it's doable, for around 1-2 hrs. of your time up front, & via free tools the OS already has, or, that it's install media does (like Recovery Console, for example), or freebie tools like ProcessExplorer & far more)
It is COMPLETELY DOABLE, & for ANY user who is willing to "put in the time up-front", around 1-2 hrs. tops to secure his system PRIOR to going online, can enjoy years TO DECADES of stable, safe, secure uptime... yes, even on a Windows machine! (E.G.-> The last 3 system I have had, had run + stayed "solid/secure/safe" for the entire 5-7 yr. run each enjoyed (& I only 'took them down' when I put new OS' onto completely new mobos & such, replacing the former machines basically)).
SO... how's one supposed to do THAT?
Ok - read here:
----
HOW TO SECURE Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003, + even VISTA(& beyond), via CIS Tool Guidance (& more):
http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2662
----
It's currently @ around 250,000++ views worldwide across 20 or so forums, & on 15/20 it was made either an:
1.) Essential Guide
2.) Made a "sticky/pinned thread"
3.) Rated 5/5 stars
BUT, most importantly, are the results folks who FOLLOWED IT TO THE LETTER ARE EXPERIENCING (as well as their customer, as in this gent's case next below as an example/proof thereof):
----
http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430&page=3
People such as THRONKA @ XtremePCCentral.com here stated, verbatim by he:
"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff!"
----
So, there you are - just a SINGLE EXAMPLE THEREOF, of many enjoying the same thing.
(Windows Security? ENTIRELY DOABLE... however, it demands a bit of your time, "up front"/first is all - albeit, for years to decades of stable safe uptime, into the distance)...
APK
P.S.=> It works... apk
Yes I've done it for a living. That means people PAID me money to do it. I didn't do it because it's fun. I didn't do it because it's cool. I didn't do it because I like it. I did it because people PAID me to do it. If you are not prepared to PAY me, I'm not prepared to fix your Windows problems. I don't care if you're family.
Harsh? Not really. Those family member who want my support follow my advice and get a Mac. And guess what? I spend maybe one hour total each year for all Mac owning family members supporting them. Those family member with Windows don't call me with their questions. And that's the way I like it.
Am I a jerk? Well I'm sure my mom's new husband thought so the second time he called me for support on his Windows system and my answer for the second time was, "Get a Mac." But seriously, if I thought it was the bees knees I'd do it for free. It's not. It's a horrible time sink and a waste of my free time. Hmm, take the kids to the park? Or fix Grandpa's computer...again? Easy call for me.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
"When we coach others it is helpful to recognize when people need to do things for themselves." - by Martin Spamer (244245)
on Thursday November 12, @12:16PM (#30074754) Homepage
I agree, because "The hotter the fire, the stronger the steel" (provided it doesn't melt the steel, that is, lol)... some help is GOOD, a bit of 'coaching' (which is what I am about here in fact, per the URL below), but, overall? I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY!
NOW - Here is what has worked for myself, paying customers, family & friends (whom I have done this for, but they no longer USUALLY need me after it) - as far as setting up & securing machines on Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003, & yes, even Windows 7 now (and, it works):
Most of what you need for a STABLE & SAFE Windows system? IT IS ALREADY IN THE SYSTEM! It's part "security hardening", & part "behavioral modification" online...
(AND, it's doable, for around 1-2 hrs. of your time up front, & via free tools the OS already has, or, that it's install media does (like Recovery Console, for example), or freebie tools like ProcessExplorer & far more)
It is COMPLETELY DOABLE, & for ANY user who is willing to "put in the time up-front", around 1-2 hrs. tops to secure his system PRIOR to going online, can enjoy years TO DECADES of stable, safe, secure uptime... yes, even on a Windows machine! (E.G.-> The last 3 system I have had, had run + stayed "solid/secure/safe" for the entire 5-7 yr. run each enjoyed (& I only 'took them down' when I put new OS' onto completely new mobos & such, replacing the former machines basically)).
SO... how's one supposed to do THAT?
Ok - read here:
----
HOW TO SECURE Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003, + even VISTA(& beyond), via CIS Tool Guidance (& more):
http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2662
----
It's currently @ around 250,000++ views worldwide across 20 or so forums, & on 15/20 it was made either an:
1.) Essential Guide
2.) Made a "sticky/pinned thread"
3.) Rated 5/5 stars
BUT, most importantly, are the results folks who FOLLOWED IT TO THE LETTER ARE EXPERIENCING (as well as their customer, as in this gent's case next below as an example/proof thereof):
----
http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430&page=3
People such as THRONKA @ XtremePCCentral.com here stated, verbatim by he:
"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff!"
----
So, there you are - just a SINGLE EXAMPLE THEREOF, of many enjoying the same thing.
(Windows Security? ENTIRELY DOABLE... however, it demands a bit of your time, "up front"/first is all - albeit, for years to decades of stable safe uptime, into the distance)...
APK
P.S.=> It works - HOWEVER, to do that guide's steps + get its benefits, well... a person has to "take initiative" & read it + apply its points, TO THE LETTER... & change (perhaps) some of the things they do online as well (some behavioral modifications, but not "radical ones", are involved also)... apk
DISA has some simple and straight-forward IA training available on-line. The DoD IA training includes interactive exercises. There is also a module on phishing. Check it out. http://iase.disa.mil/eta/index.html#onlinetraining For most techie's it is far to basic, but based on your target audience, I would recommend it.
I had problems helping her setup her wireless to a non-broadcasting router with encryption because Mac network settings are labelled differently and configured differently from Windows network settings.
I hope this doesn't sound insulting (it's really not intended to be) but did you do the "obvious" and google for something like "Mac wireless network configuration"? Because it's taken me a while to realize that frequently google does better than the OS or Application help, and that if you just don't know where (which menu etc.) an option is on a particular OS, then google does...
Really, though, I understand an Intel mini is worth $350 on eBay. If they have a PPC mini they might get $150 for it from a guy wanting to run mythfrontend. Their machine is at least three years old, so maybe a $200 upgrade would be in the mix?
Or I could *not* be a jerk, and instead of telling them to throw out a perfectly good computer for no reason, I could just spend 15 minutes burning a DVD for them. Apple's behavior is awful, though... I left them because I was pissed at my not-very-old software *constantly* being made obsolete by their 1) insistence in changing CPUs/OS kernels all the fucking time, and 2) utter disdain for backwards compatibility.
(Actually, that second point isn't quite fair-- they USED to care. When the PPC came out, and they switched from 68k to PPC, backwards compatibility support was top-notch. The OS X switch killed something like 20-30% of Classic apps. The Intel switch has killed more than that, I believe... what happened, Apple? Oh yeah, they finally have their customers so brainwashed that it doesn't even matter what they release anymore.)
Really though, installing Sony software on your Windows machine? You're not new here.
If you know of a good alternative that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars, I'm all ears. Who knows, it might not even come up again... they haven't pulled out the camcorder in months. It's not like the Sony software can hurt my machine if I never run it... *crosses fingers*
Comment of the year
-UBUNTU, or windoze with AVG and Superantispyware
-OPENDNS on the router and/or net interfaces with autoupdate client
-Strict rules on the opendns settings
-logmein free to keep an eye on things just in case
Done it with my hole family, spent one day on the setup for everybody (stayed one extra day after a family reunion)
Couldnt be happier, now I actually attend a family reunion and don't have to check on nobody's PC
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=13
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
And apparently collectively lack the ability to count.
I've found a method that works for me. I install windows on their PC to a state that they are happy with, then I install ubuntu onto a smaller partition on the same hard drive, give it about 6-10 gigs of space. Then I change /boot/grub/menu.lst so that windows boots by default. Then I use partimage to image the windows partition. Then I set up an icon on the ubuntu desktop which automatically runs partimage and restores the windows partition from the backed up image.
I did this for my sister, and she ended up restoring windows every 3 months, she preferred how a fresh install would run quicker. It would take about 20 minutes to restore the whole partition, and windows would be clean and installed with all the applications she uses regularly. She would back up her data files to an external USB drive.
Another option is to use Ubuntu as the host OS, and Windows as the guest OS. I use VirtualBox to run Windows inside Ubuntu. I have a disk image in Virtual Box which is a basic install. I change it into an immutable image. Whenever I want a new Windows guest, I use this basic image as the base image. Each new guest then only has to store the difference from the base image.
Create a separate administrator account and give them normal user priviliges, or whatever it's called on Windows. And just don't tell them the admin password.
Even local TV news has stories about cracked computers and virus problems. I can understand the 9 year old, but the other people are never going to get it if they don't already get it, and showing them videos or whatever else is not going to make any difference.
In all seriousness, just install Macs, and don't let any of them have the admin password. This worked great for my wife's family. When we got married, I refused to become her family's tech support. Instead, we set them up with a Mac, and did not let them have admin accounts. I log in via VNC about once a year to perform updates. Thing has been running with zero problems for over 6 years now... We have our next anniversary in Dec, and that will be 7 years of peace and freedom from 'family IT' since we dumped their Windows PC and got that Mac. Best thing we ever did.
Linux is the only choice as far as I'm concerned. It's because installing and updating it is so much easier, and because it's hard to screw up.
Windows is the worst, being both a hassle to install apps on and keeping everything updated. But the Mac isn't much better: you have to manually install all the apps, they keep popping up confusing "there's a new version available" dialogs, and then users screw up the system by doing something stupid anyway.
You have hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how good your digital security is, if people are clicking on every malware link they can find. So... I'm afraid I have to agree. Moving to a mac is the quickest way to cut your management time. I moved my mother to Mac a few years ago (when she was 72) and suddenly the support calls stopped. I understand there are some barriers here... price for one, but then go for a mac mini. With 9 & 26 year-olds in the house, I'm guessing there might be some gaming going on. In that case see if one of the systems running Windows can be isolated a bit (either off net, or by removing browsers -- or hiding in the case of Explorer). Otherwise, look at the security add-ons for firefox. Keep your anti-virus up to date. Good luck!
Sorry for not answering on your query about good ideas on how to educate your non tech family. Instead here's what i've done in somewhat similiar situations. (When I've found that teaching how stuff works or what is bad or not does not really help more than trying to fill up well by carrying water all over again.) Set up the system so that one partition does have only operation system installed, other partition(s) have remaining data, and have a image copy of that OS partition, so when they mess up their comps, recover the system from that image file. This way it takes much much less time to have the computer working again. Hope this helps
lots and lots of suggestions -- and i may have missed it above - but just cut an image of the system, in a ready to use state. use that ghost thing, bam bam, youre done. next time moron get system all bitched, wipe it clean in about 10 minutes.
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Not sure if this has been mentioned already somewhere in the thread but I would probably create an image of their PCs -- when totally clean and with all the needed applications and settings set properly -- and have all their files kept on a local file server (including the images). Images can be made quite easily with Clonezilla (http://clonezilla.org/), which is also free and open source. Then when they have a problem, they can simply re-image their hard drives and be back to a clean system. You can give them some simple instructions on imaging the machines along with a boot disc to initiate the process. The file server can be done cheaply -- I'm thinking an older or cheap PC running Linux for that). Then you are mostly out of this re-install loop you're stuck in.
That's how IT shops do it (one's I work/have worked in included) because it's near impossible to keep Windows PCs malware free.
Another option, of course, is to give your family Linux on their desktops. This is probably an especially great option if they just surf the web (there wouldn't really be anything for them to learn since most of what they do happens in a browser).
Mike
This is the problem with slashdot and why I seldom come back. Everyone defers the problem to Microsoft and the solution is to go to Mac OSX as if it would magically solve all problems.
Ever consider that some web applications require IE? Ever consider that some people actually like Windows and find it more efficient than Macs? Ever consider that supporting a heterogeneous environment is harder?
This is what I did. I bought a Mac. After a while I started claiming I wasn't up to speed with PC/Windows anymore so I probably couldn't help them. They then started buying Macs and I haven't needed to help them. The most I've had to do is recommend software or lend my sister-in-law my external DVD for use with her MacBook Air.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
I'm in the same pair of shoes. My recipe is simple:
Put your LAN behind a linux box, ghost clean terminals (g4l), use portable apps whenever possible (easy to redeploy after recovery from image), vnc every terminal (for admin access), automate backups (backula, to that aforementioned linux box) and avoid wifi because it makes your wifi access less foolproof. And make sure all your terminals support Wake On Lan...
Try locking the PC down to the minimum they need so that there is no way to install anything from the web?
I've done this at my work for our Out Of Office hours PC used by many "slightly more retarded employees" thinking installing every damn toolbar in the world is fun and a necessity....
not only make them none admins but open the security policies and take away what they dont need,
make your life easier by having them ask why cant i do this....
But if everyone secures their Windows machine, how will we ever find out about the holes Windows has?
It would be like buying a burglar alarm for your house. One that uses motion-sensing technology. But, you secure your house, locking your doors and windows, never letting a burglar get the chance to enter. So, you never find out your burglar alarm doesn't work to begin with.
Need I remind that dummies cannot use linux and will whine about how they do not understand anything to it ?
Why dont you just install a goddam anti-virus and some stuff like ccleaner (but in better of course) ?
I use stuff like Avast and Tune Up on my windows.
Sure that won't stop them from opening "I love you" emails but I guess having tools to clean up the mess they make and run them every week wouldn't hurt.
My solution is crude and simple:
1. Install Linux at all machines
2. Install VMware
3. Install whichever OS in a virtual machine.
4. Make a backup copy of it in a safe place
5. Let people use the virtual machine, but don't let them use the base OS
6. Make sure that all essential data - documents, whatever - are always on a networked disk
- when they screw up, simply copy from backup. Not perfect, but it is amazing how much hassle it has saved me.
Good. That's better than finding out it does work, albeit, the hard way.
Thanks, - Mines the coat with the rubber straps on the end of the arms...
True, but 9 times out of ten, it is easier and faster to change the OS than the human's behavior.
Then you can safely assume that the changes won't stick.
The user's choice of an OS - his choice of apps - his behavior on-line - can easily be ten to fifteen years in the making.
Twenty-five years for a user now in his sixties.
OSX has its good years and bad. But fundamentally it holds the same upscale market niche Apple targeted in 1984.
The Atom netbook running XP wipes the floor with Linux. Win 7 leaves the gate with four times the market share of Linux.
This ought to tell a geek something.
I've been going through the same situations, I've tried to educate, but anybody you help will always fall back into old habits. At one point I even put blocks in the registry so that bittorrent couldn't be reinstalled. I've even taught them how to use the safer solutions. The only thing I can recommend is to make a Norton ghost or other image of their fully configured drive to make reloading that much easier. Just boot a live cd, copy their documents and other data to an external, load the ghost image with all settings and apps preconfigured, then dump the data back to where they want it and run a windows update. Takes less than an hour to do the whole thing when my relatives ask me for help.
My recipe is using FF with all the most anal adblock lists, Thunderbird in text-only mode for email (for those that don't use gmail), AVG free antivirus and automatic updates on max (e.g. windows/AVG/HP/Firefox/adobe autoupdate without prompting). Works a treat. I don't even remember last time I had to battle a virus on one of those - some years ago probably.
I have the same problem with more family members in more locations so I tell them to buy a certain small form factor HP computer or a certain Lenovo laptop. I can UPS them a replacement very quickly at their expense. Each has a backup drive and some use cloud storage. Now they all want Netbooks. Any ideas on the best all around Netbook?
There does not seem to be a lock down issue.
So moving to a better, more secure, operating system, seems to be the right answer to the problem.
My 70 year old mum had the same problem, and since I put Ubuntu instead of Windows on her computer she has been very happy ( I just told her I will install a different kind of computer, think of it as changing you microwave, I told her).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Put a supported one.
Are you sure you are really that good at computers?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I will not accept the experience of anybody that has installed Linux once as valid.
I have installed almost a hundred computers for friends, family and colleagues and the more installations I do, the easier it gets.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I would format it one more time and use a product that images the hard drive. (a home version should be available for under $75)
If malware and viruses are a problem, most likely there is someone surfing the darkest parts of the internet. (maybe the 26 year old) I would suggest Mozilla Firefox with NoScript for this user. (or a dedicated PC for this person)
I'll tell my wife.
She is 55 and earns £100000/year in a highly technical job. She could try to explain it to you, but I am sure it would go all over the top of your head (have seen it before).
I don't count myself because I am not yet 50, yeah, she was (and still is) that hot when we met some years ago.
The views that some younger people have about older people are frankly very outdated.
... is that the only reason somebody would have to meet family and friends is to fix their broken computers.
Look, if I want to see my family I just arrange to meet them and that is it, I love them, so I see no reason why I should burden them with a broken computing experience if I know there are better ways to work (i.e. ditch Windows).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Macs and Linux have tons of software that do pretty much anything you need to do.
Come on, tell what is not doable on those machines, and you will see that the point your are making is not really such.
Just from an economical point of view, I can't recommend to anybody to use Windows in good conscience (the amount of money you have to spend to secure it is not trivial), putting aside the morality of recommending a company that is quite unethical in my view.
All your "solutions" are a waste of time. People are clearly recommending to switch to something else because we are seeing that it just works, so I will give the miss to the masochistic path you are suggesting, thank you very much.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Always Use Protection: A Teen's Guide to Safe Computing by Dan Appleman - This book is geared to teenagers, and it is a bit old, but it explains things very easily and hammers home the simple lessons, like Don't open attachments etc. It isn't too preachy, but it gets the message across.
If I may, here's a story about fault tolerance in the mac. I do general hourly fee consulting on windows and mac. Once I went to a 70+ year-old woman's home to help her with her mac which "had recently begun to run slow." It was an iBook G3 (many, many years old) with 256 MB of RAM. When I arrived I learned that since buying the mac the woman had never shut it down and restarted; never closed an application; never emptied the trash; and never performed an Apple Update. It was slow but still usable, which blew my mind.
Say hello to my little sig.
It would be fairly simple to create a partition with an OS image that you could kick off on a schedule. Resetting the system back to known good in less than an hour.
...on nailing a 26 year old hottie!
As far as educating your family, experience has taught me that the majority of people who don't understand technology either don't want to, or aren't willing to spend the time it takes to learn. I *mostly* solved this exact problem for myself about 2 years ago. I tried two different methods, both of which worked to some degree. The first method I tried was simply denying them administrative access to the machines. This is somewhat easy on XP because any software they use that normally requires admin access can be allowed to run without it by opening up only the specific file/directory and registry entries used the by the application and nothing else. In Vista it is a different story because the OS "believes" an application needs admin access even though all of the things it wants to access are open to that user. The second method was to install a Linux distro. Since the user is clueless about the operation of the OS in either case, better to run one with more security and less malware targeted at it. This is really a variation on the first method, because, again, I don't give root access to the user. It is not without its drawbacks - this may be due to the distro I chose (openSuSE 10.3) but it has not been the easiest thing to maintain. Compatibility issues with glibc were never solved before the distro was abandoned so VLC died the death when I upgraded it to 1.0 and there was no going back because videolan.org removed the old packages that work. That's just one example, but numerous things like that have come up. Neither of these methods is really viable from a business standpoint - like if you're operating a computer repair service out of your house, but for family they work great.
I had the same issues years ago. I bought a Mac for a video company I was starting and found OS X was a better world. So I instructed all the family I supported that any new computer they buy must be a Mac or I will no longer support them. 4 years later and I do maybe 3-4 couple of hours a year of "support", which consists only of installing a new program for them or explaining how to use something. No malware, no reformatting, no scanning for this and that, no trying to figure out why the machine has slowed down to the point it is unusable, nothing.
You can either continue to support Windows crappy systems or you can learn from your mistakes. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The choice is yours.
The only problem with your analogy is the Mac is the Accord and the Winblows box is the Yugo. Macs are not some uber luxury line, that has been disproven so many times its ridiculous.
"Hello, family. My job as household IT tech support has been outsourced to (India/China/Elbonia/whatever). The new family helpdesk is available through the main Google webpage. Simply type in your problem, and 375,000+ experts will instantly reply with their best guess as to how to fix your issue. Select the summary that seems to fit best, and give it a try."
"In the interim, the new outsourced IT support has sandboxed your computer on the household LAN due to excessive malware infections, and severely rate limited its ability to talk on the network, to reduce the spread of its infection. Please follow up with them through the aforementioned Google question submission webpage for self-help in resolving these infections first, then they will likely lift these restrictions once the computer gets cleaned up."
"Welcome to the 21st century!"
NO Hope.
They don't care to understand the what, the why etc. as long as you keep fixing it they will keep doing it.
I switched my 72y/o father to Ubuntu he hates it. but then he hated windows but actually he hates everything and isn't happy unless he is unhappy and bitching.
He is not to the live cd point yet but he has come close.
I am not the most advanced Ubuntu user but i can get what needs doing done, man pages or by "just Google it".
I stripped his install down he's got solitaire open office and Firefox.
I gave him a flash drive showed him how to save to it and said if he screws it up i will not try to fix it i will only reload it. Ubuntu is just 1 cd all the apps and some config files on my flash drive is it takes. Ubuntu is so much faster to reload i don't have to track down keys and fight to activate it then track down all the media and reload office more keys and activation bs. the Ubuntu update process is much more streamlined an no anti virus software to update.
I told him i will not try to recover any files that are not saved on the flash drive plugged in the back of it. so far so good he is not happy about it but nothing will make him happy.
I regularly pop out the flash drive and back it up when hes is not around.
with the drive plugged in the back its out of sight and out of mind so no fiddly fingers.
Set up their machine make setup a separate partition for data only and one for the OS.
Setup a backup of the data partition to run to an external drive on a regular schedule (COMODO Backup is quite good at this and is free for personal use)
Once everything is setup properly, image the OS partition and save the image to a set of DVD's (once tested)
If anything goes wrong reinstall the image back to the OS partition and Run a virus scanon the data partition (once virus database has been re-updated and before you open any files on the data partition).
If what they,ve done causes the data to disappear too, then tell that why and tough unless they listened to you and regularly did backups to an external drive).
Thats my strategy anyway and it has worked flawlessly for the past 10 years ¦\
Family tech support is tough - my sister and her family waited for more than 6 months for me to get back from an overseas trip so I could tune their TV. I gave them some pretty stern words about figuring sh*t out for themselves. Now they just ask someone else.
Set them up with low privelege accounts.
Idk what your families' problems are, but my mom is grasping the things I show her rather well.
She has had a few mix-ups, a few questions that were awkward and had easy answers and so on and so forth.
Once I show her, she applies it and learns it well. I usually do not get a repeat visit for the same reason unless she acted on something because she thought she had to quick and I hadn't seen what caused it. (which in this case was a good thing, instant malware installer asking her to download it)
If a family member is willing to learn it and not subborn, they will learn it. She can't edit user accounts/get into AD or anything to that extent, but she can change her screensaver, try different things and I encourage her to experiment, I've told her anything she breaks I can fix and this seems to encourage her to try things and if it does not come back as expected, she will take a logical action to try and undo the previous act.
I don't understand why people aren't learning basic tasks on their own, it's an annoying handicap that people shouldn't allow themselves to have.
1. Install Ubuntu and VMPlayer.
2. Create a VMWare image of XP, with all the tweaks done.
3. Set up a shared folder between Ubuntu and the VM image. Change name to "My Documents" with sub-folders.
4. Set Ubuntu to boot up w/o a userid / password screen and copy stored_xpimage to live_xpimage
5. Set up to run vmplayer live_xpimage.vmx directly, in full screen mode.
6. Live in peace - who cares about virusses & whatnot; each time they boot up they get a new image to fuck up.
(Remember to tell them that they will lose everything saved on their desktop - it is a security feature. Force them to use "My Documents")
I used to be swamped with requests for free tech support from my immediate and extended family. 4 nights out of the week, I would spend working on others' computers - nearly always at their house.
Finally, I told everyone that I would continue to provide tech support, but it would be the first and third Tuesday of each month, from 5 to 10, at *MY* house.
Evidently, all of their problems which were massively urgent before stopped happening... since it would require them to go to the length of driving their computer to my house, I have only had TWO INSTANCES of doing tech support since then.
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
sounds like you need to get a better firewall, you should be able to put something in place that has good locks and limits to keep them safe from malicious sites and downloads without being totally obtrusive.. i mean think about it, spend a week or so setting up a good powerful linux firewall that has the ability to block certain domains or can even contact a blacklist and stay updated while also scanning incoming packets for viruses. Its really a win, win. I know your pain all too well being family tech support is deffinately a pain.
My son, our family geek, has got some program that makes what he calls a 'ghost'. It is a saved image of the state of everything on the drive containing the os & programs. When one of our family or close friends gets a crash or problem he just quickly uses the 'ghost' to recreate the drive and all it's former contents. Works great for all my grandkids' 'puters and saves him and I many many hours of brain-drain...sorry I don't know the name of his program tho' - anyone else know?
These questions amaze me. How can anyone even ask this? I mean. If this were 1998 fine. It is 2009 and GNU/Linux works for most average users. You just have to force them to switch. It isn't any harder than moving to Vista/Windows 7 so anybody who fails to assist the family in switching has only themselves to blame. Stop using MS Windows and stop 'fixing' something that doesn't work to begin with. If the system doesn't work with GNU/Linux make sure the next system does by buying something designed for Linux! ThinkPenguin also sells "designed for Linux" systems that are free and fully supported /w the end-user support average joes need- so to a large degree you don't even have to deal with all the issues yourself. System76, LinuxCertified, and some others also sell laptops that mostly work. My experience is you rarely get 100% compatible systems from these companies though. I've pretty much bought from every one of these companies. None of them (except thinkpenguin) really design for GNU/Linux. They use non-free graphics drivers and stuff that interferes with forward compatibility and/or full support (no suspend to ram when 3d acceleration is enabled for instance). And Dell is just horrible period. Don't go there.