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Apple Voiding Smokers' Warranties?
Mr2001 writes "Consumerist reports that Apple is refusing to work on computers that have been used in smoking households. 'The Apple store called and informed me that due to the computer having been used in a house where there was smoking, [the warranty has been voided] and they refuse to work on the machine "due to health risks of second hand smoke,"' wrote one customer. Another said, 'When I asked for an explanation, she said [the owner of the iMac is] a smoker and it's contaminated with cigarette smoke, which they consider a bio-hazard! I checked my Applecare warranty and it says nothing about not honoring warranties if the owner is a smoker.' Apple claims that honoring the warranty would be an OSHA violation. (Remember when they claimed enabling 802.11n for free would be a Sarbanes-Oxley violation?)"
would they not work on ipods that were listened to during sex?
Does putting it in the dishwasher void the warranty?
I moved into a house previously owned by a smoker. Almost got nicotine poisoning just from touching the wallpaper...
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Can this actually be legal? Smoking is ( currently at least ) legal, so how can they penalize a smoker?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
ROFL I cant wait to see how Stevo's groupies try to spin Apple out of this nonsense.
They have an obligation to the customer under the terms of the warranty. They also have an obligation to their employees. They need to honor both, not pick and choose. If they really believe that opening the computer represents a health threat then they need to issue protective clothing and breathing apparatus to their employees. Simple as that. OSHA does not prohibit working with dangerous materials (manufacturing and maintaining computers DOES involve doing so), it just requires proper safety procedures be observed when doing so. The possibility of working with computers that have been exposed to cigarette smoke was not unknown or plausibly considered to be remote at the time when these warranties were issued.
and I get to smoke in my own house, while browsing the Internet (for porn)
is a worker can sue their employer for forcing them to work on hazardous materials. smoke in all of it's forms isn't good for your lungs. Would you work on a computer that a tobacco chewer has been spitting in? Where is the line drawn? How do we know the imac in question wasn't used as an ash tray and that's why it failed? I have watched careless smokers. they dump ash and their butts everywhere.
While I find the absolute idea preposterous (just send it to me I don't care about smokers stupid personal choices), legally any company is put into a damned if you do and damned if you don't position.
All that said just fix the friggin computer. maybe this will point out the flaws in the system. though no one will ever fix them.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Well, water is legal, but getting water in a PC or a cell phone voids the warranty.
So, it would then come down to whether or not smoking is hazardous to electronic equipment.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
That said, I can always tell when a computer I'm working on has a smoker for an owner. The smoke leaves a yellowish to brownish residue. Dust sticks to it. In the worst case I can recall seeing, cooling slots were blocked by congealed fuzzy crap.
It's nasty, and I can see it contributing to component failure in bad cases.
That would void the warranties of about 90% of all apple products sold.
would that make gay fat smokers 6th or 8th class citizens?
I'm insulted, and appalled. What is next, refusing service if you have ( legal ) things they don't approve of on your drive ( like porn? )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Next thing you know you'll need a doctors note stating you do not have an infectious disease before they honor your warranty.
Any company is responsible for their employee's health and safety. They're also bound to honor the warranty. So obviously Apple should provide the techs with Hazmat suits.
I read the article, and while it wasn't 100% clear, it looks like the computer is damaged by smoke (tar). What is confusing is that Apple is doing an OSHA violation stating we can't make anyone work on it because of contamination. What is it? Contamination or owner damage? If I have a warranty that includes fixing it including when I drop the computer, then they should fix it, but then they can say OSHA violation and NOT fix it.
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
class action lawsuit anyone.
Sometimes laws have unintentional negative consequences, but most of the "Oh, we can't do this any more, because the government has a rule that says {X}" is generally BS. Case in point, no banks offer fixed rate credit cards.
Wanna know why? Want to know why banks don't offer fixed rate credit cards, that is, credit cards whose interest rate doesn't change? Want to know why they've all withdrawn them, the credit cards they had with fixed rates? Want to know?
Are you sitting down?
You heard that right: the credit card companies, and their obedient apologists in the right wing media, claim that the reason they can't offer fixed rate credit cards is because they can't vary the rate of a fixed rate credit card... very often.
Yeah, the government's to blame for that one. Right.
Sarbanes Oxley? What businesses except Apple don't offer free "good will" gifts from time to time to their existing customer base, that previously did so? And what's the clause in SO anyway that bans businesses from traditional goodwill accounting? What's that? It doesn't exist? Damn right it doesn't exist!
And now OSHA is banning Apple from working on laptops contaminated with tobacco smoke? Quite honestly, even for Apple, it seems like a stretch to me. I'm inclined to assume it's probably false, but it's not going to completely surprise me, given the above, if Apple reveals it's true.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
soooo...ummm....wear gloves and a simple mask when working on the damp computer. It's not a violation if you use proper PPE ...
The massive success of the iPhone has emboldened Apple. Otherwise how can you explain that behavior? Heck, there are thousands of apps for the iPhone so Apple think they are invincible.
Good we have some kind of competitor (read Droid) though Motorolla are curtailing the Droid's success by marketing only to the USA. And Google are not helping matters by creating avenues for incompatibilities around Android.
Gloves and a face mask.
Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
Conforming to government regulations is ridiculous, Sarbanes-Oxley and OSHA. Bitch to your senator or congressmen about diminished freedom.
Computers of smokers are well, filthy, and hard to repair. Dust and tar everywhere, blocking ventilation and making mechanical parts fail sooner of later.
Eww, I'd agree with waranty void there.
-- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
Look at this and tell me that you wouldn't run screaming if someone asked you to repair that. Also, the way smoke is clogging up that fan, I'm thinking that smoking around a computer is a decent reason to void your warranty. Like using your phone in the rain. The harm came to the unit through your own negligence...
IANAL and this is not legal advice.
If a 'smoking exclusion' was not in the contract, then they lied to you when they sold the contract, plain and simple.
Sue them in small claims court for the value of the computer. If your state is like Ohio and they award 3x damages for a breach of consumer protection act (a breach of contract might trigger this), you could get a nice upgrade.
If you don't want to go that far at least complain to your state's attorney general.
As a smoker I find it hard to deny Apple's case here. Tobacco smoke is not a good thing for electronics. Neither would be lots of candle smoke, grease smoke, auto exhaust and many other environmental contaminates that could leave a residue on the hardware.
For the smokers out there: is it really that hard to take a break and go outside? I've always felt that was the best part... take a break, go out, have a smoke and consider what ever you're doing - then go back and get it done.
Of course these are not likely people using their computers for productive things... probably ex-AOLers chatting up people while drinking and smoking. In which case - ??? WTF just get a life already.
Oh and it's gross to smoke cigs in your house. Same as it would be gross to smoke a turkey inside or any number of things that leave residue everywhere.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
The fans inside computers shovel several cubic meters of air every day through a very tight space. It could certainly be possible, that this leads to amounts of poisonous residue far above your usual passive smoking hazards. And thus this might not be another piece of green hysteria, but consistent and reasonable action even despite the public outcry, that this may cause.
Oh man up. I've repaired worse. That kind of damage can happen to any computer near the front door of your house.
This is my sig.
I've worked in two separate computer retail repair shops where we've voided warranties for this. It's not just because there's a smoker in the household; it's the results that inflicts on the computer. Like parent said, it gets NASTY. I've seen it gum up CPU and graphics card fans many, many times.
It constitutes abuse of the equipment, and that is explicitly not covered under warranty.
Here's a nice gallery of what cigarette smoke does to PCs: http://www.squidoo.com/cigarette-smoke-computer-damage
Even if you accepted the inflated figures of second hand smoke, some smoke exposure is a pretty fricking low cause of death. AS it is, the number 1 killer in the USA, or at least near to it, is the fricking flu. If Apple cared about their workers, their hourly people would get paid sick time.
This is my sig.
Remember when they claimed enabling 802.11n for free would be a Sarbanes-Oxley violation?
Why yes, I do. I also remember that it's a perfectly legitimate (though perhaps conservative) claim as well. And I also remember all the people mocking Apple who clearly had no idea at all how revenue must be accounted for in publicly-held companies. Apparently some of you ignoramuses just do not want to let go...
So do car drivers....should we ban them also??? After all, driving a car is a privilege, not a right.
I was in the hospital not too long ago, cost $70K to fix a broken foot because a car hit my motorcycle.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
After all, 90% of U.S. currency has traces of cocaine on it. I'm pretty sure the Apple store is dealing.
... it is the most absurd thing I've heard in a while. I am not a smoker, and don't like the smell that smoking leaves on clothing and such, but to refuse to work on a smoker's gadget because of "second hand smoke" is ridiculous. But then, Apple tends to the ridiculous.
Is this story legit? Can it be confirmed?
Who the hell smokes indoors? That's fucked up.
Cory Doctorow talking about cloud computing makes as much sense as George W Bush talking about electrical engineering.
I used to work as a computer technician to pay my tuition.
Computers that had either failed or seized up due to nicotine/tar build up were impossible to clean, and nearly impossible to repair. The nasty build-up got literally everywhere, clogging heatsinks, coating voltage regulators, caps, expansion slots, and other devices that depend on air convection to stay cool. The only way to get these machines running stably again was usually massive part replacement.
If smoking doesn't constitute improper operation, it should. For all the people bitching out there, smoking has been demonstrated to cause premature failure to humans, particularly second-hand smoke which contains a Noah's Ark of nasty bacteria and pathogens. WHy is it such a surprise that it also kills sensitive electronic equipment?
Front door? What happens at the front door?
They've also refused service on devices where their litmus indicator shows signs of turning pink (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=9214797, http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/14/smart.phones.buggy/index.html, http://techgeist.net/2009/09/apple-iphone-abuse-detection-sensors-abusing-2/). It sounds like they're still looking for more excuses not to honor their "warranty."
I won't be buying any more Apple products.
Why did you choose it if you you did not like it?
That's not trolling. That's a serious question. Presumably nobody put a gun to the grandparents head and forced him to move into that house.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
For once I am pleased with Apple's quirky business policies.
In addition to being a biohazard, enough smoking over time by many people seems to actually deposit a greassy residue on the inside of the computer parts, like the heat sinks, integrated circuits, fan blades. I used to be the IT administrator for an office of a dozen people, back when it was somehow allowed to smoke indoors in the office while you work. And the style was for everyone to smoke. As a non smoker I was a minority, and had to put up with working in that mess.
But for the computer parts, after about six months the parts looked as though someone had sprayed them with PAM cooking oil, and then dusted with ashes. All chunder stuck on fuzzy layer of dust bunnies, and "that" smell of 1000 cigarettes. We went through a lot of computers because of the lack of ability for the parts to cool themselves with the ambient air circulation inside the cases.
So my fendangled point was, it is not fair for Apple, or any computer company to have to honor warranty claims for computers that were subjected to the abuse of a smoker, as the hardware was subjected to environmental conditions that was not in any of the designed intended use. For example, if I put my computer through a dish washer, they would have the equal right to not honor my warranty claim, as I 'intentionally damaged' it in much the same way. I would like to see other companies start doing this too.. Buy a car? Did you smoke in it ? Oh, now it has no resale value, sorry.
If you spilled beer in the keyboard would you expect them to replace it under warranty?
No sig today...
when your control neurosis becomes insanity...
i used to be in radio back when everybody smoked. we kept the (smoking) engineers busy cleaning scratchy pots on a regular basis. it wasn't a big deal. since smoking isn't allowed in studios anymore the pots stay clean indefinitely. but i mean seriously, removing airborne pollutants that have settled on components is a routine practice.
for all that however computers themselves are biohazards. try throwing one out sometime. if apple was consistent they wouldn't anyone build them - let alone repair them.
this story is like something the onion would come up with.
You guys complaining about this are the biggest babies. Aside from the fact that this information extremely ( to say the least ) exaggerated, you guys have all been mislead by this smoke in your eyes nonsense. Please take a look at http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com. Oh, and most of these chemicals found in tobacco smoke are perfectly fine under EPA guidelines.
You just don't want to see what happens to the computer near the back door.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I like Apple. I bought a Mac in 1984 and have bought a bunch of them since then. I own Apple stock. After about 12 years it was worth about half what I paid for it but then it has performed very nicely over the last few years. But let's face it. Apple is thoroughly infused with self-righteous a..holes. That's the image one gets from the top down. I think they may even work on it. It's a valued trait in the company. Ever go into an Apple store. It seems like being a self-righteous a..hole is a core skill required for employment. Heck, even I, when I advise people about what kind of computer they should buy, I can feel that self-righteous a..hole feeling welling up inside me. It even feels good sometimes. Unfortunately, it's part of the price of using Apple computers. You just have to deal with it.
I wonder what happens if you smoke in your BMW.
Smokers die quicker than non-smokers, saving us money that would be spent on long term care.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Actually, Medical insurance is very cheap for drivers and very cost effective and effective in general compared to regular medical insurance.
The cost of dealing with "the costs of driving" should more than cover themselves.
If you never bothered to take advantage of what's out there then that's another matter.
70K for a broken foot? Sound more like the hospital needs repaired.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Don't forget to include all the cigarette tax money and all the cigarette lawsuit money.
Given the kind of nasty tar buildup that you can see in a smokers house or car, this sort of concern should not be all that surprising really.
You really can't blame an underpaid geek for not wanting to get near that stuff.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I can understand employees not wanting to touch a yellow or brown mac. I hate working on smokers computers, tar makes a great insulator and does damage components and yet somehow it is your fault that the computer does not work. Neither of the two examples given indicate the amount of tar buildup on the computer, generally if it just smells like a smokers computer, there is no problem, it gets repaired. The only time a computer gets labeled a biohazard is if there is a significant amount of residue on the computer. The first post does sound like tar related damage, which could be considered user abuse(voids warranty).
Not to be picky, by Obesity is now the #1 leading cause of death (health problems related to) in the US.
And 3/4 of the country is now Obese.
So ... as long as you're skinny and smoke, chances are the fat ones are going to die first.
In my contract with ATT for my cell phone, it clearly states that the warranty does not cover any damage due to water. In fact there's a white sticker on the inside that turns colored if it gets wet.
Apple should be putting all sorts of detection stickers inside their cases, and modifying the warranty on new purchases.
I've worked on old computers all my life, and you can bet if it looks dusty from the outside, it's probably a lot worse on the inside, I always wear a mask when opening those up. Apple just doesn't want to pay for masks/gloves/glasses (aka safety equipment).
What would happen if you bought a second hand computer which was owned by a smoker and then brought it in for repair? Does apple have a qualification program to determine if your computer is able to be qualified by their AppleCare program? Is it like health insurance whereby you need to visit your Dr. to get a clean bill of health before some insurance company will cover you?
Slashdot ate my [shudder] tag.
Dealing with anything which a smoker has owned (or used) is just completely disgusting. House, covered in yellow nicotine stains, thin film of brown smoke residue on fucking *everything*. I have a photo somewhere of a lightbulb which has a yellow/brown vapour deposition coating on one side, the other being less exposed. Then there's the smell on their clothes, in their cars, the yellowed teeth, yellowed fingers. I'd put money on it that the macbook in question was just as disgusting inside.
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That's not from smoking, it's from dust and dander in the air. His father probably has pets.
I've seen more computers clogged with cat hair than I've seen clogged with cigarette ash.
I've worked on computers from time to time and the worst are those from people who burn candles or that seem to have way too much perfume in their home. The candles leave residue just like smoking. Oh and don't forget the fur-balls when the computer sits on the floor with a cat in the house.
I suppose Apple will void the warranties on those folks too?
This article made me nostalgic for arcade machines with cigarette burns in certain locations on them. On some games, you'd balance your butt on the edge of the cabinet. Other games' ergonomics seemed to favor keeping the cig between your fingers and would get brown burn marks next to the most common buttons.
Yeah, sonny. In my day we had to walk to the arcade to play games. Sometimes through the snow. And when we got there, people SMOKED inside. So get off my lawn^H^H^H^Hgame.... didn't you see the quarter I put on it?
Also, most of the major tobacco producing companies have strong financial ties to companies involved in the treatment (longevity not curing) of cancer and
other smoking related illnesses.
Tax from tobacco is the US about $15billion per year. Extending the lives of smokers earns about 5 times as much.
Mine complains about my brownish-yellow stained computer cables every time I have my servers in for service (yes, I smoke in the server room, sue me). But mostly because they care about my health and don't want to lose a good customer to the coughing death.
Oh, maybe my service fee is higher than what you pay at Apple. But it includes face masks to protect their techs, it seems. I'm fairly sure you get them cheaply from a lot of governments that bought tons of masks during the last flu craze but nobody wanted to wear them in public because they make you look like a paranoid loonie.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The issue is not whether smoking is legal or illegal; there are plenty of legal things you can do a computer that would void the warranty. If they're going to make this argument, they simply need to support the claim that the damage to the computer goes beyond normal wear and tear.
For example, computers in chemical labs often fail because small amounts of airborne chemicals attack the PC boards and chassis. I've worked on boxes that look like they'd been strapped to the bottom of a battleship for a few years.
Having seen the office accommodations of some chain smokers, I can't say I blame Apple. I've seen environments where every surface is coated with brown, sticky residue and a multi-millimeter thick layer of dust and ash.
Something like 20%-25% of the population are smokers, but despite there being 3 times as many obese people, there are only slightly more obesity related deaths than smoking related deaths.
Well If the P... errm Mac looked like this : //Captcha:cleaning
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/13/ventblockers/
then I'd probably not touch it either .
I fix computers for a living, and I will vouch for the pain that is working on a "three pack a day" computer. It's not terribly bad as long as they keep a clean house, but when there's a lot of dust in the machine, AND they're a very heavy smoker, the entire inside of the computer is filled with a matte of dustbunny solidified by tar. It's a dark mustard looking soft foam and reeks to high heaven, and when you touch it, it wipes off on your hands like ash AND sends a fine dark yellow cloud up into the air. Takes 5 minutes of hand scrubbing to get most of it off after you're done working on it.
I don't think I'd call it a "biohazard", as there's not a lot of chance of my inhaling any nicotine, but it's certainly unpleasant to work on. It also tints the entire machine a dingy yellow, especially the white plastics and the front of LCD panels. It also kills optical drives. (clouds the laser lens) Occasionally we get in a machine that looks ok, but reeks of tar when you pick it up. When we open it up, it's obviously a heavy smoker's computer, that they took the time to clean the outside case before bringing it in. "surprise!"
Most computers have active air cooling, and function like air filters. If you're filling the air with nasty, you should expect a lot of it to collect inside your computer, and nobody likes dealing with that.
Twice we've had to refuse warranty repair for a killed optical drive, and once a smoker wanted us to replace (under warranty) an LCD panel that had "become discolored". No, really? Like the WALLS and CURTAINS in your house? ick ick ick.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
If you begin smoking, then there is not one bit of you that has any respect for humanity and the world you live in. Smoking is 100% egocentric, you do it because other people do it and you want to be "cool" like them - very cool of you, wanting to be like people who smoke, rob, vandalize cars, and otherwise are completely without respect. There is no possible way at all that one can start smoking and have respect for anyone. And there is no good excuse for starting it, because there simply is no reason to do it. It stinks and does not have the pleasurable effects of, say, cannabis. So, good riddance.
You know what, fuck you... I'm sick and tired of people like you proclaiming things evil and demanding a ban. If you are out in public you assume the risk of being outside where your neat liittle world ends...if you don't like what's happening out in public, stay the fuck inside and leave the rest of us in peace...
"It's not that I don't understand what your going through. Its that I just don't care"
So you expect a warranty to cover water damaged devices? When you find a company that covers water damaged equipment under warranty, please let us all know!
The smoking thing is a bit strange, and I'll have to see if they say anything more. I'd love to see pictures of the device that was submitted for repair!
Disclaimer: Yes I own Apple devices, and I seem to be in the minority in that Apple Care has been a great experience for me.
If the Consumerist can be trusted this time, this does not surprise me in the least, and I totally support Apple this one time.
We had mangeto-optical disks in the 90s at a "smoke friendly" office that kept dropping sectors. Finally found someone at the vendor who suggested we open up the disk cartridges, and carefully clean the platters.
Secondhand smoke cost my company dozens of hours of labor, and real costs due to the data that was lost.
Don't get me started on the machines I've had to work on that were in despicable condition, owned by smokers. This goes beyond the normal dust that sneaks in - this crud doesn't come off without an acid bath.
a pipe smoker once suggested to me to add a slice of apple
to a opened pack of pipe tobacco, if it dried out to quick.
Please tell me this a joke right? Smoking is a personal choice and should be left as that. You wanting to impose HARSH penalties on smokers is nothing more then you wanting to dictate the actions of another person. You even want to impose your will in my private home? What the hell man. What would give you, or anyone else, the right to tell me what I can do in my own home? I choose to smoke cigars and pipes and I will continue to do so even if illegal. They can come and take them when they come for my guns.
I guess Apple's engineers were informed that once the smoke is out, you can't put it back in.
Taking showers is legal too, but that doesn't mean Apple has to fix it under warranty if you try to use your Mac while taking a shower.
Better known as 318230.
An Apple authorized service provider near me (Mac-Pro) has no problem with the cigarette smoke. My airport base station was hung on the wall above a smoker's head for 2 years. The thing was yellow and the insides just reeked of stale cigarette butts.
They fixed it up. And even offered to take it in exchange for a discount on a newer model if I was unhappy with the discoloration and smell.
When I worked in an electronic repair shop, we had lots of toxic chemicals we would use to clean people's stereos and tvs and vcrs. You could get all of the yellow gunk and most of the smell off the outside and inside of a device with a little bit of effort. Giving a customer a device back that is fixed and shiny makes them really happy. It's called customer service.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/newads/applebaked.gif Apple has in the past claimed that they will work on smoke damaged machines.
Hate to tell all you people but thats not ash, its human skin particles. I'm a non smoker and blow out my computer once every 3 months. Its human skin/hair-dog hair/skin -cat hair/skin-smoke from cooking or whatever in the air.
Jack of all trades,master of none
I sincerely hope you don't live in my country where we subscribe to a little thing called "Personal Freedom" otherwise known as Liberty. I hear there is a country across the big pond that you might like.
Smokers cost a lot less in Old age benifits than non-smokers.
Smokers pay more taxes.
I'm not sure smokers cost that much to others.
Please tell me this a joke right?
Smoking is a personal choice and should be left as that. You wanting to impose HARSH penalties on smokers is nothing more then you wanting to dictate the actions of another person. You even want to impose your will in my private home? What the hell man. What would give you, or anyone else, the right to tell me what I can do in my own home?
I choose to smoke cigars and pipes and I will continue to do so even if illegal. They can come and take them when they come for my guns.
As much of a leftie as I am (I'm assuming you're towards the right based on your remarks), I actually agree with you. I don't have a problem with private bans on smoking (restaurants, bars, etc) but public bans (sidewalks) are a terrible idea and I won't even dignify a ban in people's homes with a response. I'm curious about your position on gay marriage.
I think there's a real opportunity to overcome some of these divisive issues so we can get rid of some of the rats in Washington. That's just good for everyone.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
1200 in the US die every day from smoking related illnesses 135 of these are from passive smoke 115 fatal car accidents happen every day in the US (no mention of how many die in each)
People die from one or the other, but how much is a life worth?
Passive smoke and roadkill isn't that different really. Where the real hipocracy is, is when life-time smokers expect expensive treatment to keep them alive for another 5 years.
As a rake (and smoker) myself, i am already aware of the years (of boring life) I won't get, I need no treatment, i may live 5-10 years shorter, but i enjoyed every single day of what i had. As for the 135 passive smoke deaths, it could be avoided with considerate smokers, just as considerate drivers rarely kill anyone.
Liberty isn't just about money, guns and cars, it's just as much about what kind of life you wanna lead urself.
If I was as pragmatic and objective as I claim to be, would I be commenting?
Something like 20%-25% of the population are smokers, but despite there being 3 times as many obese people, there are only slightly more obesity related deaths than smoking related deaths.
I want to believe these numbers, they make me feel good, but I'd love to see a link to your source.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
However, the very expensive treatment a smoker receives in hospital, the effect it has on second hand smokers (possibly also receiving treatment) and the loss of productivity of smokers negates easily any cost savings by moving over to the other side.
- In Memoriam: Jeroen de Bruin (1972-2004), bye bro
I once fixed a computer that had some hardware damage to the motherboard.
A mouse had taken up residence inside, along with a rather good-sized colony of black widow spiders. The mouse was dead, either from electrocution or the spiders, and had chewed through a good bit of the motherboard to make its nest. Some people don't take any care of their things.
Not a sentence!
They need to grow some balls. An underpaid janitor gets to clean rotten piss off the bathroom floor everyday.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Have you ever opened up a computer that a really heavy smoker has been sitting in front of for years? It's disgusting. Everything has a coating of tar on it, it stinks even before you power it up, and when you try to work on it, it's all gummy.
I'm just amazed that more hard drives and more fans don't fail because of smokers.
It's pretty bad when you wipe the screen and the paper towel turns ORANGE!
Is Apple being dumb? Now that smokers are the minority, I don't think so. Let them pay for supplemental coverage, same as health insurance. Besides, if you want to quit smoking, there's an app for that
Gay marriage really isn't a big deal to me. I could never get why the rest of the right hates the idea so much. I must come down to religion though. Its not like the state of marriage can get any worse if two men/women tie the knot. I have always felt that the Govt should stay out of our private lives. But now they just encroaching more and more every day. Thanks for your comment btw.
Yes, hear you. Everytime I go to the States my skin gets all sticky from second hand fat.
We should have law against fat people, They should pay more taxes , because the occupy more volume, add more wear to the roads when driving, put more shit througth the sewers, have bigger impact on the environement, etc...
http://store.ovi.com/content/744FD2C886D77218E040050A87327F92?clickSource=search
Deleted
What country do you live in and are you currently accepting immigrants?
(because it sure as hell ain't the United States, where personal freedom and liberty have neither constituency nor champion)
no, because smoking is easier to battle than cars, since in the US, nearly 100% of the population is addicted to cars, even though they are way, way more dangerous (and not only in the get-hit-by sense).
That's because of all the non-smokers Apple repair empolyees that died from second hand smoke.
They count as deaths but not as smokers.
The only reason anyone anywhere is getting away with anti-smoking legislation is because cars can't be intimidated.
Oh, and the majority of those calling for an all-out ban are pro-NORML hypocrite asshats.
~Just as a thing fails if it lacks a kernel, so too it fails if it lacks a skin. ~ Rumi, Discourses
IANAL but warranties shouldn't be void if you prefer it at the back door or front door.
So, can I tell my boss that I cannot go to work because of the health risks of being around other employees who choose to smoke and destroy their bodies?
I am not a smoker. I have never and will never smoke a single cigarette. This whole thing just sounds like weasels trying to worm their way out of honoring a warranty. I bet Apple would still fix it if you paid them, thereby putting the technicians "at risk" from the smoker who owns the computer.
In other words, they'll subject the technicians to it, but only for a price? :)
Its a reason to exercise the 'replace' option in the 'repair or replace at our discretion' portion of your warranty agreement.
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
They are probably concerned about this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/03/health/research/03smoke.html Even so, this does not relieve them of their warranty obligations. If they cannot safely handle the item, then they probably have to simply replace it.
The visible parts are dust and dander, but they only accrete quite that heavily in a sticky environment.
Sticky, like cigarette smoke residue sticky.
Smoke by itself just produces a thin yellow slightly conductive layer which is a pain to get off. Dust by itself just produces a messy layer which just needs a tiny bit of compressed air to clean it off. The two together produce horrible sticky masses like those shown in the pictures - compressed air will do *nothing* to that!
Whenever you see used amateur radios for sale, "non smoker" is a selling point. I was once given a CB from a guy who was a 3 pack a dayer. His car was a bomb, and the radio took an hour to attempt to clean. It still smells slightly, over a year later in a no smoke environment. This sort of radio makes little heat and uses little power. I can only imagine the smells from a big radio (100 watts out) or a 1500 watt linear amplifier.
ROFLWMP (rolling on floor laughing,wetting my pants)
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Public bans in "Restaurants, Bars, Etc," hmm, who owns the restaurant or bar where you go? Does the government own it? Does the "public" own it? I suspect a person or corporate entity owns it. That would make it a private property, not a public one. Where do you get off telling me or anyone else who my clientele will be? If I want to cater to smokers that should my business choice. Let's have a debate about public smoking since it is an issue, but first, lets remember what "public" is.
Grimjack
In the wild there are no dumb lions tigers or bears. Only humanity subsidizes the continued existence of the stupid.
If they don't want to fix them, fine. I wouldn't either. I'd put it in the fucking warranty though. That's the point you shit head Apple fanboys that are cheering them for not fixing smokers computers. And to all you shit head anti-Apple fanboys, Apple shouldn't be responsible for idiots destroying their computer with stupid crap like blowing smoke into it. It should be in the warranty, though. ffs
No kidding, I've been chain smoking next to my computer for years and I don't get shit like that.
-The world would be a better place if everyone had a hoverboard
Back when I did computer support, we allowed smoking in offices that were completely closed off (no cubicals). One executive secretary (who smoked) had a computer problem (coincidentally a mac) - wouldn't boot. Computer couldn't find hard drive. Opened up the covers and the computer was pretty much puke yellow inside. The fan sucked all that smoke right through the case.
This was a mac IIci (ancient history I know) and the hard drive had an exposed flywheel. Hard drive was very very hot. Gave the fly wheel a shove and it spun up and the computer booted. All that smoke residue had gummed up the hard driver. Cleaned it all up with isopropal alcohol and it was good to go again. Gave her a new hard drive just in case.
Bottom line, yes, you can tell if a heavy smoker owned the computer and yes it does affect the life of the computer.
Congrats, once again your addiction costs you money. Consider quitting.
I used to smoke a pack of Parliaments a day... but I've moved on to "vaping"...
Best place to start with electronic cigarettes is to read this thread at something awful...
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3171692&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
There are a lot of people who do reviews for these products on youtube... I subscribe to a few of their channels... here is my favorite one...
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrimmGreen
You know that old saw about "lies, damn lies, and statistics"?
Define "smoking-related". My guess is that *your* definition would be that of someone who dies due to an illness caused by smoking. I'm cool with that definition. It's not the one that was used to come up with that number for smoking-related deaths, though.
The only thing more contrived than *that* number is the one that attributes death and illness to second-hand smoke. It's honestly ridiculous...I can barely watch one of those "truth" ads without sneering anymore.
Obesity is a *major* factor in high blood pressure, cardiac problems, diabetes, and mobility problems (which, themselves cause cascade effects due to an inability to excercise). All of those things are indicators of poor health and possible sudden or early death.
Prior to the military's ban on smoking, roughly 20-25% of soldiers (mirroring the general population) were smokers. In *that* population of people (who routinely exercised and maintained good cardio-vascular health and diet), smoking was not the leading cause of death.
The simple fact is (disclaimer: I'm an ex-smoker) that smoking is seen as not only bad, but pointless and invasive. That makes it an easy target...not for banning, but for revenue generation.
And that's leaving aside the fact that the taxes on cigarrettes are almost entirely used for things *other* than smoking cessation and healthcare for smoking-related illness. The whole selling point of cigarrete taxes began as "money to pay those huge health bills for smokers when they finally get cancer or emphysema".
10 years ago, cigarettes in the US cost about 2 bucks a pack. Today (unless you live in New York, god forbid), they cost about 5 bucks a pack. 20 years ago, they cost around a dollar. Almost none of that cost increase has come from manufacturing costs.
Let's assume a smoking-age population of 150 million people. 20 percent of that is 30 million smokers. Assuming that (on average) they smoke a pack a day, that's just shy of 11 billion packs of cigarettes per year. Assuming it costs 1.50 to produce a pack of smokes, that's 3.50 a pack in taxes, or 38.5 billion dollars a year...770 million dollars per state, if you divide it evenly.
If we're going to talk about smoking and why it's bad, let's be honest and say that it's bad because it makes more money that way.
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
"Consumerist reports that Apple is refusing to work on computers that have been used in smoking households. '
I like the way that they've gone out of their way to ask other Leading Computer Brands what their policy would be if one of their employees refuses to work on a machine because of smoke contamination.
Oh, wait - they haven't.
Mind you, if I spent my days repairing other peoples computers, smokers or not, I would certainly investigate these things called "face masks" and "gloves". I mean, look at these puppies...
I wouldn't like to repair mine if I wasn't me :-)
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Do tell, how exactly are they dangerous in a NOT getting-hit-by sens?
Uh oh! I farted next to my computer last night. I called Apple and they said that voided the warranty as well.
You know what, fuck you... I have a severe case of asthma and have had MANY attacks out in public because I got too close to someone smoking. Smoking isn't just about the smoker's choice. It has an affect on the people around the smoke too.
Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
When I first saw the headline I figured it was acceptable.
I figured that it was due to the fact that ash and tar build up are very good at causing all sorts of issues to a PC. That is undeniable if you've worked on any heavy smoker's PC if they smoke around it.
But no ...
They aren't servicing it because of a bullshit execuse like lung cancer for the repair tech? You've have got to fucking be kidding me. If they were actually concerned about what might be inhaled they'd already be using safe breathing procedures, A blown capacitor produces far more carcinigens than any residue left over from smoking.
The car they drove to work put out more pollution and dangerous chemicals before they left the driveway than inhaling second hand smoke from the mouth of a smoker.
I'm fine with safe working conditions, but this sort of shit is just ridiculous. I'm not a smoker, but I'm so sick and tired of this retarded sort of shit. I'm sick of those retarded jackasses that will start coughing and bitching about smoke when they are 30 feet upwind of a smoker. They can't even smell the shit.
I'm tired of the bullshit implication that second hand smoke is worse than first hand. I'm tired of the retarded 'education' done by uppity bitches pushing their agenda to stop smoking.
I'm about to start smoking just to blow smoke in the faces of these people.
Apple can refuse to repair machines for legitimate reasons, smoking included. 'The repairman is inhaling it' isn't a legitimate reason. If the units have ash and tar in them, they'll also have hair, skin cells, bacteria and fungus spores, from humans and pets, every chemical in the environment the unit has been in and all sorts of other shit. The tar and ash from smokers is the least of your concern, or at least it should be.
Refusing repair because the ash has stopped air from moving through a heatsink, fine. Tar build up has caused a fan to stop working or resulted in a short, fine. As long as you refuse repairs for all of these reasons unrelated to smoking so people stop buying your products when they realize you don't make them properly to handle everyday use.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
The outgassing from those computers is worse for your health than cigarette smoke residue, I assure you.
Ecplain to me why an unsupported argument gets a mod-up to +5, Insightful.
The Apple techs have my sympathy. The smoke also chews up the electronics and oxidizes the connectors.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Either:
*normal levels of cigarette smoke do not void the warranty
OR
*Apple engaged in fraud by not making this clear before the time of sale. This is especially true for extended warranty products.
Pick one.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
... a little thing called "Personal Freedom" otherwise known as Liberty.
Personal freedom/liberty does have its limits.
So you are saying you are free to do ANYTHING, regardless of its impact on others? I dont think that is how it works.
I do recall one old saying that should come into play here... "The right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." AKA go ahead and smoke those 6 packs a day, just don't do it around sensitive electronics cuz it'll gum up the works prematurely.
So if I liked surfing the web on my Dell notebook while I soak in the bathtub, and my wet hands drip water into the unit damaging it, Dell should be required to fix it under their standard warranty, right? A little dihydrogen monoxide shouldnt hurt, should it? After all, its my RIGHT to use the device however I see fit.
although I agree with apple, the reasoning they use is BS.
(I used to be a bench tech and have seen tons of things I would consider abusive inside PCs. I even voided several warranties because of it.)
It may be more of a danger to children, but to dismiss an environment that is coated with poison dust as harmless without further study is absurd.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-third-hand-smoke
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
Can anyone name a computer service that can properly clean a machine that qualifies as a biohazard?
I've both refused to repair systems with vapor deposition of true nastiness, as well as seen the allergic reaction of a poor fool who worked on a similar machine. If a machine's components have a sticky yellow coating on them from so much smoke going through the system, you need gloves to handle those components, and you need to remove the sticky film so they will work properly. Apple stores are not equipped to do that. As with most OSHA stuff, you need to know the rules to protect yourself, no one is tasked with telling you, "You will have a skin reaction and cough for the next few days."
I can't say that I blame them. I've worked on a few computers from smoking environments. The insides are typically caked and coated with nicotine residue. It definitely rubs off on your hands when working with the insides. Not to mention the smell is disgusting. Can't say I blame them at all.
But storing your Mac near one* doesn't void the warranty.
*I'm talking normal consumer-grade magnetic screwdrivers, not industrial magnets.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Mostly anti-apple here. But I have ALWAYS hated what cigarette smoke does to computers. When such damage happens to stuff due to a fire in the home, they call it "smoke damage." I recognize some differences such as the temperature of the room when such damage occurs, but if I were Apple, I would first require that the source of the offensive smell be removed from the computer prior to completion of any warranty covered work. This would say "fine, you can smoke around your computer, but don't expect us to work on it until you have removed the offensive substance from the computer." But then again, try removing the substance without voiding the warranty...
The bottom line I think is that users are subjecting the computers to damage that is not covered under warranty. And it is a biohazard to expect people to work on these things in that state. Working on computers with smoke damage has, at times, caused severe dizziness and disorientation and prevented me from being able to concentrate on the work that was to be done. Such condition call for some sort of "push back" from the supplier of service and support. I hold that it is unreasonable to expect people to work under those conditions.
Simple, just ask any big tobacco apologist for your answer. Personally, the notion tobacco is even legal is frightening to say the least. First, second, and third hand tobacco smoke not only causes health problems it also is a major contributor to the greenhouse gasses that cause global warming. The smoke from the burning tobacco and paper coupled with the transportation and cultivation and harvesting of the tobacco creates more greenhouse gasses than the tobacco absorbs while it is growing. Willfull ignorance does not eliminate the facts; however the stupid believing that it does proves one thing "The stupid have no teacher except their own experience"
Unless the warranty or EULA specifically mentions smoking, it's fraud plain and simple. The OSHA claims are just as fraudulent and easy to debunk. Just call up your local OSHA office and ask them about it.
About 15-20% of adults smoke. The number for Apple users may be somewhat lower due to the younger and more "chic" demographic.
In any case, at the time Apple was designing its warranty coverage, it knew smoking by its customer or others in the household or business was not so rare or so offbeat that it would be reasonable to exclude it, nor is it obvious to consumers that smoking is bad for the equipment.
At the time of the sale, Apple had 3 choices:
*specifically and prominently state that the warranty is void if the computer is exposed to tobacco smoke
*plan on honoring the warranty
*set the stage for a fraud lawsuit
Since they didn't due the first one, they get to pick from the next two.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
One computer shop I worked in had a "Smokers fee" if the computer was owned by a smoker, and the computer smelled like smoke, or was filed with ash, we would add an extra $40.00 Smoker fee to the computer. We would have to wear gloves because of the nasty coating of smoker gunk on EVERYTHING. We had some smokers try to void the fee by cleaning the outside of their computer, but the moment we opened it and smelled the evidence of smoke, we would call the customer and inform them that we would have to add a smoker fee if we were to continue working on the computer.
The smokers gunk that coats everything can cause cooling fans to fail, prevent heatsinks from giving off heat, and prevent PCI and other slots from accepting cards!
And that shop would void a warranty if we could prove that the SMOKE is what caused the computer to fail. That is the same as flood or water damage.
However we did have an entry in our warranty about smokers. The smokers fee was clearly listed on the wall with the other service charges.
We also had a the option to refuse to service any computer if it was a biohazzard. And we had more than one computer come in with a dead animal rotting inside. We would open the case, see dead rotting flesh, close case and wrap it in garbage bags. Then we would call the customer and inform then we could not service their machine because of a dead animal inside. We also put a sticker on the inside body panel we removed as a warning that we have refused to service this machine before because of a biohazzard, and we would flag their name in the computer, so that we would check all incoming machines from that person for biohazzards or the sticker.
Seriously. I've denied warranty service on systems like this before. Indoor smoker's systems build a horrible layer of greasy filth that can't be properly cleaned and kills fans like you wouldn't believe. It's not the hardware's or the manufacturers fault that fans fail, systems overheat, and components fail as a result of this noxious filth. The fault is in not explaining the situation properly. In cases like these I've always taken photos, physically shown the customer why I'm denying warranty service, and explained carefully. I see similar things in machines used in woodshops, machineshops, etc. And for those who say 'it can't be any worse than cat hair' - it is. If you've seen both, you know. Yes, cat hair can clog fans. It can also be easily taken care of with a cheap can of compressed air. Cigarette filth, on the other hand, never really cleans up properly.
OK, my 2 cents: Apple isn't dumb for refusing to repair a machine loaded with tar; Apple is being dumb for calling it a bio hazard due to carcinogens. Apple would be better off telling the customer that there is too much residue from smoke inside the case to effectively repair the system. Perhaps they should add a warning that even if the one thing is fixed, it could easily malfunction again, or something else could so easily go wrong, because of the tar and all inside the case.
Okay, Apple has gone too far refusing to service their equipment because a user is a smoker. I hope Apple refuses to service someone with willingness and resources to sue. I imagine that would be a black eye on Apple, and because there isn't anything in the warranty about the warranty being voided because of smoke I'd bet they'd lose.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Public bans in "Restaurants, Bars, Etc," hmm, who owns the restaurant or bar where you go? Does the government own it? Does the "public" own it? I suspect a person or corporate entity owns it. That would make it a private property, not a public one. Where do you get off telling me or anyone else who my clientele will be? If I want to cater to smokers that should my business choice. Let's have a debate about public smoking since it is an issue, but first, lets remember what "public" is.
Grimjack
If you actually read my post you will note I specifically stated I was for private bans, not public bans as you suggest.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
Secondhand computer outgassing is probably bad for me too!
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Has anyone yet mad a connection to this episode and the fact that jobs are fleeing civilized countries were you could refuse to do your job because there is icky cigarette smoke residue on a Mac Mini and going to uncivilized countries where you'd be fired on the spot for suggesting it? I'd bet there's a guy in Asia right now, smoking a cigarette and having a good laugh reading about this.
I assume that you also apply this logic to household with pets. If cigarette smoke residue (more accurately, nicotine which sticks to copper) is enough to put your Mac out of warranty, then pet hair clogging the fans should, too. While we're at it, just having a dusty house applies by the same logic.
BTW, I've had several computers that I smoked right next to and I never had any problems with overheating... because I clean my computers and I know the difference between a hard drive and an ashtray. A little maintenance and common sense goes a long way.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
This computer is less than 2 years old! Only one person in my household smokes - one 21 year old college student.
Yeah, "only" one person, the person that owns the laptop. And anyone that has been a 21 year old college student knows how much you smoke. (hint: a lot). Just because one person smokes doesn't mean their room isn't filled with smoke and tar residue.
When I worked TV repair, we'd jack up the estimate on smoker's TVs to compensate for the nastiness factor. The electrical charge attracts the particles from the ambient air and the build-up in some environments can be dramatic -and fast. Failure was very often scum related, either by blocking cooling air, or providing an arc path for the High Voltage.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
Many years ago I used to be the regional IT guy for a paper company and one of my sites was a cardboard factory. Inside the factory we had paper dust everywhere in very large quantities (it was enough of an issue to require a dedicated permanent vacuum system to suck up most of it). We also had printers (the computer were in special industrial cases with filters) on the factory floor that were exposed to large quantities of paper dust.
A brand new laser printer would be coated on the inside with dust within a week at most. We routinely bought rebuild and maintenance kits and rebuilt the printers every three months due to the heavy usage and the effects of all the paper dust. A brand new $1500 HP laser printer had to be rebuilt with a full maintenance performed after three months, something normally not done for years.
Why? All that paper dust coated everything because of the environment that the printer was put into. As a company the idea of trying to get a warranty claim with HP was considered absurd. We put the printer in an environment where it was essentially abused. The innards would be coated and if not for our maintenance schedule they would overheat and slowly bake themselves.
A situation that is really do different than the apple one. Why should Apple have to pay because someone put their computer in an abusive environment where it was physically damaged? If the customer puts a computer in an environment that physically damaged the product, denial of warranty coverage is really straight forward. That environment just happens to belong to a heavy smoker.
Back when I was in high school I worked as a tech at a used computer store. A mac LCII came in for trade in and it was fairly yellow from smoke. I opened it up and it was completely caked on the inside. I'm not sure how the cooling fan survived that much gummy smoke dust. I closed the lid and refused to accept it for trade in. The sales drones weren't happy, but the store manager agreed that we wouldn't take it.
Nasty stuff. I wouldn't want to work on computers who have been around smokers. Some people don't realize how disgusting the greasy brown goo is that covers everything around them where they smoke.
As a right wing conservative myself, I have no trouble with same sex unions (civil) but I do think the goverment should stop using the term marriage as that is a purely religious union. Same sex marriage (religious)? up to the religion. Same sex union (civil)? sure, what the hell. Everyone has the right to the same union, let gays be just as miserable as the heteros.
Good to know it costs that much to repair a broken foot. Note to myself: never ride a vehicle where the most fragile parts of my body are on the outside. Better choose transportation systems that provide a protective cocoon, plus safety belts, airbags, etc.
Seriously, there should be much higher taxes on motorcycles, the cost to the community caused by motorcycle accident victims is disproportional to their contribution.
wait, doesn't cigarette smoke dissipate? are the worried about touching the tar residues? what a bunch of sissies. these people are repair techs. When things break in this world, like refrigerators and cars and toilets... there are people who get paid to go inside the device, which is full of yucky, and sometimes carcinogenic (in the case of cars), stuff.
In a "flying through the window and getting hit by the concrete wall" sense.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
classaction. Enjoy the bad PR, Apple.
Not to be picky, by Obesity is now the #1 leading cause of death (health problems related to) in the US.
And 3/4 of the country is now Obese.
So ... as long as you're skinny and smoke, chances are the fat ones are going to die first.
can they hurry up already? i'm tired of seeing them waddling around.
I am highly against that last sentence of yours, but people that smoke should smoke outside. I am addicted to smoking, but I hate it when everytime I get into peoples houses where they smoke inside. My clothes smell discusting the next morrning and the walls are all yellow and mice and keyboards are disgusting too.
Here be signatures
They did not claim that the warranty was voided, they claimed that servicing would cause them to violate OSHA regs. This is nonsense. Hell OSHA allows employees to work with asbestos, lead, PCBs, acids, bases, petroleum distillates, beryllium, radioactive shit, and pretty much everything else nasty you could think of. What OSHA does is set permissible exposure limits, training requirements, and work practices such that the employees will be safe while working with nasty things.
Apple may decided to implement training and exposure monitoring, and conduct the repairs in a fume hood or even sub the work out so someone who's not so finicky but they can't just ignore a contract unless the other party backs down. These people should take Apple to small claims court.
-- QED
Wow - the propaganda's getting thick around here.
It's sad really, when anyone carries anything to such extremes as to make themselves look so totally ridiculous.
First let me say I think Apple not servicing Macs under warranty because of smoke is BS! With that out of the way I've had 2 computers have a buildup of dust on the inside, that's why businesses make and I buy cans of compressed air. Now a build up of dust can be serious, it can cause a short circuit and start a fire.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I've worked on machines from smokers only to find the insides covered in fuzzy, sticky brown residue. It smells horrible as well. I can see how this sort of thing could cause warranty issues without question.
If I were Apple, I'd simply take in image of it and show the customer.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
And how many computers come with filters where air intakes are? Once when I asked about dust buildup in my PC, the inside was caked with dust, I was told PCs don't come with filters. The tech suggested I buy a filter and the hardware to hold it then mount it on the air intake. He said that if nothing else to tape a coffee filter over the intake, just make sure air was still able to circulate.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
So I take it that you don't live in a city then? Because in most cities I can't seem to smell the smoke from peoples' cigarettes unless they're almost rubbing up against me due to all the "healthy" pollution from cars, trucks and other combustion engine-powered vehicles.
/Mikael
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Say what? So if I created a device that emitted a smell so nasty it made you wretch you'd be okay with me waving it around you while you were trying to enjoy a meal, walk down the street, or sit on a park bench? Because hey after all you "assume the risk" of every moron around you doing something disgusting when you venture outside of your home right? Sounds to me like "the rest of us" is quickly becoming a minority and you don't like being one of them.
I'm all for personal freedom so long as it doesn't impinge too greatly on others. I don't blast my music, I don't let my dog poop on other people's lawns, and I try to be considerate of others. Cigarette smoke, frankly, makes me ill. If a person in the car ahead of me at a light is smoking I can often smell it and it can make me gag. When smokers come in from outside and share an elevator with me I'm forced to get off at the next floor because the stench is overpowering. I'm not alone in this, other coworkers have expressed similar issues. Sorry smokers but your habit effects others and there are finally enough of us speaking up about it to make some changes, it's not going to stop.
I used to live with smokers, my parents and grandparents all smoked. The film covered everything and every car ride was misery as I was forced to endure the smoke. I used to work in an environment where smoking was allowed in offices and I repaired the computers. I had to empty the keyboards of ashes, I had to clean the gunk off of the screens - inside and out, and I had to clean the crap from inside the boxes. The offices were often just nasty to be around, it was like a film covered everything. Like it or not smoking DOES cause damage to computers. In my experience the damage usually wasn't so bad it couldn't be fixed. No worse than dog or cat hair except that you can't use canned air to remove it. I recently inherited some clocks from my Grandfather, my Uncle smoked around them for a few years. When I wiped them down the brown gunk was disgusting. I had to clean and oil them inside to get them running again, these were mechanical clocks with little to no airflow inside of them and yet they were filthy. The evidence is pretty overwhelming really - smoking damages everything around it.
As much as I detest the effects surrounding smoking I'm not sure I support Apple's not fixing these computers. I guess I'd have to see just how bad these computers looked inside and it would have helped if Apple had made this a known policy. I CAN understand why they might want to have such a policy but before they begin instituting it they need to be a little more open about it. IF they had done that then sure, I can understand them rejecting claims like this if upon popping open a computer they found it contaminated with tar and crap...
Some interesting reading http://www.squidoo.com/cigarette-smoke-computer-damage and http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=176542 If you do some Googling on cigarette smoke damage you will find thread after thread of evidence of smoke damaging computers, guitars, stereo speakers, and on and on. Close enough to evil for you?
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Fill ultrasonic cleaner in glove box with deionized water / detergent solution. Fill rinse tank with deionized water. Start ventilation system for glove box. Using tongs, place unit in glove box and close door. Disassemble unit in glove box. Place each board and case component in ultrasonic cleaner for one minute, then in rinse tank, then on drying rack. Allow 10 minutes for preliminary drying. Open glove box, remove drying rack with components, and take to repair technician. Dispose of contaminated water as medium-toxicity liquid waste.
What's the problem?
Pre-cleaning is routine in maintenance of equipment used in bio and chemical labs and in medical facilities. It works for computers with flood damage, too. Almost all electronic components other than hard drives are tolerant of cleaning in this fashion. The last step in PC board manufacture is a pass through a dishwasher-like cleaning station.
Right on, brother. The day they come to my house to try and take away my cigarettes, a source of income drainage and a damage to my health no matter how much I might be addicted to the stuff and hell no I stopped I deluding myself that I actually like it years ago... is when I will shoot those motherfuckers with a gun with the full intent to wound them (what else am I going to do, shoot a hole in my roof/floor? rofl!), perhaps mortally so. Serves them right.
Reading between the lines a bit it would seem that Wikipedia disagrees with you on the origin of the word marriage. In the Etymology section of the Marriage article they indicate the origin is Latin. Which means it almost certainly predates Christianity. In the European marriages section and the linked Roman marriage article religion is indicated as playing at most a supporting role in the process.
Telling gay couples they have to use a different word seems to me a last attempt to snub them. If we change the term for everyone that's fine, although it seems a bit silly given the history. If religions want a term for their ceremony related to marriage then come up with a new one, like Mormon sealing.
Their complaint was not smoke damage to the machine -- it was health hazard of second-hand smoke. This is ridiculous. Residual smell of smoke on a machine, while nasty, is not a biohazard, and it certainly doesn't carry the risks of "secondhand smoke". Unless there's smoke in the air, there's no secondhand smoke.
The last two power supplies and last one monitor I worked on that failed were from smokers. One had the ashtray about 2 inches from the computer. The coating of residue was ridiculous and the smell as I was working on it was awful and I'm sure very harmful! So I totally see where they're coming from with this one! Although logically they should also refuse to work on ones with people who own cats because the insides of cat owner computers are really scary too. Also, I'm allergic to cats and dogs so it's a health hazard.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Having done PC support in offices back when smoking in offices was common I can attest to the putridity of a machine that gets smoked around. I would equate it with working on a grimy car engine. It's even worse with pet owners that smoke. You take the machine outside and "hose down" the system with a spray circuit board cleaner and replace the PSU. It's messy work but you bill the customer for your time. If you think the customer may balk at the expense you talk to them, maybe show them what smoking around computers does. It wasn't that big a deal when most of the system's chips didn't need heatsinks. You could get away with cleaning just the CPU's HSF, and maybe replace the PSU if the customer was on a budget.
Of course I only worked on steel cased, pentium-era desktop machines. Modern systems and notebooks in particular would be more involved as they really depend on staying clean and cool to avoid heat related instability. I would expect a cleaning could include a surcharge for abusive and unusual treatment of the hardware. I mean, if someone brought me a machine that they had doused in maple syrup, I would probably refuse them service or just name a price that I figured was a little north of what I thought they would be willing to spend.
As for the health concerns, well I smoke anyways, but I do it outside. I'd still wear gloves, just like I almost always did.
But Apple has other concerns. I doubt a mall store tech could contain the mess with the resources they have available. They might not actually be allowed to use the cleaner I would use. Or it might attack plastic requiring full dissasembly of a notebook. I don't know, I'm out of the loop on that.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
...mainly because they're selfish and inconsiderate fuckers.
But this is going a too far: I see a law suit coming. Any health and safety issues are Apple's problem, not the purchaser's. Apple knows some people who buy their kit are smokers and if there's a genuine health and safety issue with servicing those machines then it's up to Apple to provide the safe environment in which to do so.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
but use one on your Apple and bang goes that warranty
Self servicing hardware is strictly mentioned in Apple's warranty but smoking is not. I'm typing this on my MacBook Pro and I went down to some Apple stores and asked about replacing the hard disk drive with a bigger one, the 160 GB disk it had was almost full, and was told Apple does not do that. I was told that if I wanted a larger disk installed in order to keep the warranty valid I would have to take the MBP to an Apple authorized service center and have them do it. I was specifically told I could not swap drives myself. I was not told I can not smoke.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Bans on smoking in business are generally pitched as protection for the employees rather than the customers. We have all sorts of laws about protecting employees from callous employers. Banning smoking seems right up there with requiring guards on sharp tools and eye protection for welders and all the other sorts of mandated employee protection. If you can own and operate a business with no other employees than I don't have a problem with you and your customers smoking like chimneys.
Yes, I have seen that - and it is disgusting. When I first started in the corporate world - in California - it had just become against the law to smoke in offices. There were mostly IBM 3270 and 3290 terminals and just a few PCs in the office then, but it was clear immediately upon looking at these machines which came from an office with a smoker and which came from non-smokers. The smokers units were filthy as you describe. I probably wouldn't want to work on them either. I'd imagine though that a repair company is likely to have at least one smoker on staff and could just have that person repair the smoker's computers.
Cigarettes are far and away the most addictive and deadly products out there for human ingestion when used as intended that can be obtained without any kind of a license or without a doctor's supervision.
Just for some background, I grew up in a two-smoker household. Neither of my parents ever gave me the courtesy of even so much as stepping outside to smoke. My earliest memories are of gagging in the car as both of them were spewing poison into the air with the windows rolled up. "It's not THAT bad," they would tell me. I wish they had told my lungs, since I suffered from chronic bronchitis and several lung infections including pneumonia growing up. My mom died in 2001 of cancer. My dad died in 2005 of cancer. Neither has a family history of the disease, except for my mom's first cousin who died in 2006--who was, incidentally, the only other smoker in my family.
So you want some sanity to break out over this issue?
I'll be right there in that line with you, brother. Let's outlaw tobacco production and usage outright, because allowing such a deadly addictive product on the market with virtually no controls, that's insanity. At the very least, petition our government to classify tobacco as a controlled substance and let the FDA regulate it just like they do every other addictive dangerous drug.
Let me reiterate that. Nicotine is a drug, and cigarettes are a delivery device for that drug. If you really want sanity, then 1) If you smoke, stop now. Not stopping makes you pretty damn stupid. 2) Stop letting the tobacco lobby have their way in Congress. Insist that it be regulated just like any other drug, based on an honest assessment of its risks and dangers, not on what makes misguided twits think they're cool.
I attest to this experience; recently I helped reinstalled windows xp home on an old smoker lady's desktop and the nicotine/tar smell lingered in my home for more than a week after I had the machine running for less than 3 hours.
No Sig for you.!
...posting anonymously.
Grow some balls and put your name to your ranting or STFU.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Does it violate the warrantee if you vacuum or air jet your machine before bringing it into the shop for warrantee repair?
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." I've never quite understood why we allow public smoking but not public drinking. Seems to me it ought to be reversed. Some guy standing next to me drinking a beer causes me no harm or even discomfort, quite the opposite for the smoking.
is whyyyyy I am a PC. :)
Where is your OS X now? Muhahahahaha...
...and told buyers about the limitation on the warranty before they bought the device then sure.
But it is obvious some buyers of Apple products will be smokers so if they're prepared to take their money then they should ensure they can honour the warranty that's part of the sale.
It's Apple's problem to solve any health and safety issues.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
I hate the smell of fried food, it makes me puke and I'm forced to get off the elevator when someone comes back from KFC. It's time to stop all this, let's ban fried food. I also hate fat people, they also make me puke and force me to get out of the elevator when they are sweating and smelling and don't let me start with the space they occupy on planes. They should be forced to loose weight and pay double or triple when they want to get a plane. Oh, and you should really get a life.
So an APPLE in the hands of a smoker is ONE BAD APPLE?
And that means it is going to ruin the bunch?
Ok, actual question is... if a computer from a smoker's house is considered toxic, and the computer is therefore "not repairable" by Apple (if the warranty is void because of OSHA concerns then they wouldn't repair it for money either, right?) and so the computer is instead thrown into a land fill with all the other toxins Apple used in the electronics to make it work in the first place... meaning, don't fix a smoker's computer so we can sell another unit while polluting that much more... and who says environmentalist can't make a quick buck?
Smoking is not a requirement, people can easily live without it and many do.
Living isn't a requirement either. There are only necessities for specific outcomes, those outcomes aren't necessary either.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Curious. Marijuana is way less addictive and toxic than cigarettes or alcohol, and I am pretty sure that you are not allowed to smoke it at home, in most of the US at least. And last time I checked yes, penalties could be quite harsh, all the way to jail time.
Now, either you are for legalisation of hash and light drugs, OR you are for a smoking ban (at least to the level of light drugs), OR you have a serious case of doublethink.
And, just to remind you: no, you are not allowed to do as you please just because it's your home. You cannot beat your wife, raise your army, print money or shoot people, and you cannot do bunches of other things. Actually the only thing that I can think of that would be OK inside your home and illegal outside is walking around naked.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Now that smokers are the minority, I don't think so.
So, your argument is that once a group is a minority, it's suddenly ok to discriminate against them? It's ok to breach a contract because the individual is part of a minority in the population? I might be able to get on board with your argument if you hadn't made that incredibly ignorant statement.
Hard drives don't really get a lot of air circulation through them. They generally have a single hole in the case to allow for pressure equalization, and many have a spongy filter over them so the air exchange with the drive is very minor.
Fans are somewhat designed for it. Fans deal with everything in the air anyway, and have to keep dust out by design since they'll see the highest amount of it, so their design naturally reduces the amount of air that reaches the critical parts. With that said, fans around pets and smokers DO fail sooner on average in my experience.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
There is no law requiring businesses to maximize profits, at least in the US. There is, er was, the requirement that in order for a business to be granted the limited liability of a corporate charter it had to serve the common or public good.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
And furthermore, the claim that working on such a thing might constitute a bio-hazard might not be far-fetched:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091119121300.htm
as a recent study shows tobacco harboring several human pathogenic bacteria.
I can't say whether this new policy is in line with their warranty, but I don't see how anyone would make a case that it's discriminatory even where smokers are a protected class. They are targeting the smoke itself, not the smokers. If you're a smoker but you don't do it around your computer, or it just happens to be reasonably clean, you're going to be fine. If you don't smoke, but you like to store your computer in your chimney flue, they're still going to refuse to work on it.
On the other hand, smoke residue is hardly the most dangerous or disgusting thing anyone has had to deal with on the job, and using OSHA as an excuse seems pretty weak. If they just acknowledged that they're going to treat excessive smoke exposure the same way they would excessive heat or humidity, that would seem entirely reasonable.
How many lives are saved by driving every day? How much of society relies on people driving?
Next, answer the same questions for smoking.
If you are trying to minimize the cost that the rest of the population has to pay when a motorcyclist gets in a crash, then simply have the motorcyclist pay for their own medical treatment rather than subsidize it. Motorcycles are small and don't generally cause much damage when they strike some other object or vehicle, unlike the amount of collateral damage a tractor trailer does if it jackknifes across an interstate during rush hour. Thus the costs are really just what it takes to patch the motorcyclist back up. I do understand that some people will just skip out and not pay the bill, but I haven't observed motorcyclists being any more or less likely to do that than anybody else who did something dumb and got hurt.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
Having worked on smokers' computers, I can say that the only time this would cause a problem for the repair person would be if it was utterly, obnoxiously prevalent in the computer. Normally we couldn't tell if the computer came from a smoker's home. But I've seen a few -- only a very few -- where there was literally ash in the casing. I have no idea how it could have gotten there, either, but there you go, and it *reeked*. Seriously reeked; I think only one other tech could bring himself to work on that computer for more than a few minutes. Once someone brought in a laptop and it was painfully obvious the moment they cracked the lid that they smoked pot; I don't think you could hang around the laptop for long without getting an incidental buzz. For a tech who might be allergic to pot smoke, I don't know if it would cause problems, but it certainly wouldn't be pleasant.
So, in summation: When the person complains that their computer had it's warranty voided because they're a smoker, I would hazard a guess to say that they were a VERY heavy smoker and the computer was suffused with ash and reeked. This is NOT the computer of an idle, cigarette-now-and-then smoker, but someone who more or less chain smokes while browsing the web. It probably made working in the GR next to impossible.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
I once inherited a free computer monitor. It was used in the home of a smoker. The thing was coated with this disgusting film of tar residue. I tried to clean it but could never get the stench out. Finally gave it away to an ex father-in-law .. I was a smoker at the time but it even grossed me out
Now as a cancer survivor, I am adamantly opposed to tobacco and all the misery and suffering it brings
Keep your filthy habit contained within your home .. to consume all the carcinogens instead of having to dispose of it all in a toxic land fill
When you die from cancer, we'll burn your house to the ground with you in it
I have an ex wife that insisted she had a right to smoke anywhere she pleased. In an enclosed car, during winter, with the windows rolled up, with her children present. She gave them cancer ...
People like you that insist you have a right to smoke in public places are selfish assholes. You are addicted to the worst of drugs and should seek help. Not only are you slowly killing yourself, you are infringing the rights of others around to breath clean air and a healthy life.
Seek help
I won't get, I need no treatment, i may live 5-10 years shorter, but i enjoyed every single day of what i had.
And herein lies the problem. Like 99% of other smokers, you justify your habit with this line. However, when the time actually comes, your line no longer holds ground because your opinion changes once you're in the situation and you get treatment anyways. If someone forced you to sign a paper to no medical treatment for smoking ailments right now for 20 years in the future, I can guarantee you you'd start sweating when you picked up the pen.
Baseless promises about the future are the same reason the US has a giant deficit and slackers go bankrupt for getting too deep in debt.
I don't think Apple's concern is for the health safety of the technician. It rarely is.
I think Apple has it written that it has the right to classify the devices used by smokers as being operated in extreme environments.
Specifications for engineering do account for a quality of air standard being implicit to the design. Industrial installations (areas known for pollution) will require industrial filtration for computers. IBM, Compaq, HP and others used to sell such as they knew their boxes would be in such situations where dust and or ambient pollution would be sucked in and deposited over the fans, heatsinks, electronics. Induced humidity and heat stress, fatigue and failure on electronics used to be very common.
Being a California company Apple forgets that other places and regions of the world are not yet so "progressive" to eliminate all forms of indoor pollution as their legislatures.
Computers & electronics used in medical Offices, Centers, Hospitals, etc where airborne disease is commonly encountered ought to also be equipped with industrial grade filtration and the mice/keyboards regularly decontaminated and eventually changed out and safely recycled.
Also I've been known to use dust masks for servicing inside computers deployed at schools, archives and warehouses due to possible hantavirus conditions. I
For those who haven't had the pleasure, this recent article in the Register featured submitted pictures of some quite horrific computer innards, including one particular bad case of smoker's cabinet.
Considering the exaggerated cost vs. functionality of Apple products (similar to Sony or Ralph Lauren), people who are snubbed by a blatantly self-serving company shouldn't be offended. What people should be upset by is the militant stance of non-smokers and how "PC" it's become to cow-tow to them. This attitude is just another example of trading freedom for security. Fuck your security. If you can't protect yourself from ignorance, it shouldn't be my job to give up my freedoms to shield you. We've become a species governed by reverse Darwinism, only the weak get what they want. Reach deep and find your balls (metaphorical), stop bitching and forcing your opinions about how I should live my life.
You should be free to live with your own mistakes and triumphs. Just don't expect me to suffer for them.
Apple has an obligation to repair broken parts. There is no warning or clause that covers cigarette tar and it's effects on the inner-workings of your computer. Also, will they repair your computer of it's damaged by a virus or willful acts of ignorance?
Take some fucking responsibility.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
While I think the reaction is over-the-top (and giving Apple techs that degree of personal control dangerous), nicotine tar does have a destructive impact on computer components, and it is very hard to non-destructively remove. Somewhere around here I suspect I still have photos I took 25 years ago of an IBM-PC-XT-class system that had been used by a chain-smoker: the interior was heavily coated with nicotine tar, damaging a number of components and making it virtually impossible to remove to prevent further future damage, especially when there was no expectation that the exposure would stop. The entire interior had a sticky yellow tinge. I wound up showing the interior to the customer and factually pointed out that the same compound was also coating his lungs, and he seemed rather persuaded by that visual demonstration.
There was a lesson here for these two puffers to learn, but they chose to ignore the lesson and transfer the blame for the consequences of their poor choices to others. They should be giving the mirror a smackdown, not Steve Jobs.
As a former Genius Bar technician, I can say first-hand how disgusting it is to open up a white computer that's yellowed and stinks of cigarette smoke. They're terribly gross to touch and work on.
While I can't offer any evidence of it actually being a health hazard, it's certainly not a pleasant experience.
You know what, fuck you... I'm sick and tired of people like you proclaiming things evil and demanding a ban. If you are out in public you assume the risk of being outside where your neat liittle world ends...if you don't like what's happening out in public, stay the fuck inside and leave the rest of us in peace...
Let's even ignore long-term exposure to second-hand smoke: Some people need help to stop hurting themselves, like users of hard drugs. If there wasn't a stigma of illegality surrounding them, there would be a lot more people who were brought up curious enough to try them.
So where do we draw the line regarding bans on self-harmful items? Beats me, but I personally draw the line somewhere after smoking -- let's get rid of cigarettes for good.
Who cares? If he enjoys killing himself with cigarettes, it's his business. He's not hurting anybody but himself.
Why are some people so obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
Maybe not
Well, third-hand smoke is considered by at least some docs to be a direct cancer risk.
The NYT doesn't say anything about peer reviews of the study though. Now it does list some of the substances that so called third-hand smoke contains but it doesn't mention what vehicle exhaust contains or the poisons that food is sprayed with. Nor does it say anything about the emissions from the paper industry.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Smoking and being high is not illegal, possession is.
I'm Dutch. Your point? I think people should be able to smoke in their own homes. Taxes on cigarettes are enormous, so they cover their own bills. Yes, they smell, but I've also stood next to non-smokers who almost made me throw up. You can't ban people smelling bad.
Also, I think you should be able to beat your wife, if she's into that kind of sex. Stop telling others what they can't do when they aren't really hurting society.
Actually the smoke from smoking is fine enough that it can get through the filter on the hard drive and inside it. not to mention it will also coat the laser diode for your optical drive. the tar that is left behind by the smoke can stick on surfaces and in turn cause dust to stick to parts worse then before causing heat related issues.
Well, driving your car is unlikely to damage your computer, smoking is. Oh, and it will also make the inside of your car smelly and sticky and makes it more likely to have an accident.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
would they have to honor the service contract if the laptop was exposed to abestos, lead dust, or <insert favorite toxic agent here>? most people i think would say no.
just because billions of people willingly subject themselves to nicotine each day doesn't change the fact that it is a carcinogen. IMHO, and in the opinion of most western countries, the average person has a right to avoid being subjected to carcinogens.
yes, flame on with counterexamples, but in general that's the way things are moving.
Apple needs to start asking it's customers if they are smokers BEFORE selling them the product, and refusing to offer it to smokers BEFORE taking the cusomer's money. In fact they should put this in all of their marketing materials. To do less is pretty fraudulent. If they are not going to honor the warranty based on the habit of smoking, then they should have to refund the price of the machine and any extended warranty that was purchased.
Apple doesn't want to subject their techs to tobacco smoke residue? Fine, stop taking money from smokers and give back what it has already taken. It's that simple.
Do you think a smoking customer would buy Apple's product knowing that the warranty would be void as soon as they light up a smoke?
I wouldn't, but then I don't "think diffrent" like those Apple users claim to.
C.
"Doctor, it's not the voices I hear in MY head, but the voices I hear in YOUR head that really frighten me."
Although it should actually be, "blame the people." Back in the 1980s the people of California passed a resolution (Proposition 22?) that required that anything that led to exposure to carcinogens or substances known to cause birth defects had to be labelled. This is one of the reasons wine bottles no longer have lead foil over the cork: some lead atoms could travel from the foil to the glass and then be picked up by the wine when it's poured and then on to the drinker where those one or two lead atoms could then possibly cause a birth defect. Give me a break!
I also remember in the late 1980s that where I was working tried to accommodate smokers by collecting all of the smokers into a single area where they could puff away without exposing anyone else to second hand smoke. That got shot down because the room the smokers moved to would be so contaminated with cigarette smoke that it would be considered carcinogenic to the people who did the cleaning.
Sounds like Apple may have valid legal reasons for not working on equipment that has been contaminated by cigarette smoke.
Only soft of OT plug for my favorite movie: "Thank you for smoking". Absolutely great movie.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
He's not hurting anybody but himself.
Nowhere near true. He is exposing others to secondhand smoke, and when he finally starts croaking from it he will tie up medical resources that could be used for people that don't suffer from self-inflicted injuries.
I hope they can't figure out that I've been masturbating near mine. Sure that means the possibility of exposure to a bit more vibration than normal and the probability of bio-hazards but those aren't listed as voiding the warranty either.
A long time ago, I worked at a retail clone shop. We spent most of our time assembling custom clones, or upgrading or repairing machines that people brought in.
We could ALWAYS spot the smoker's machines. They were filthy, disgusting -- inside and out. Inside the machines, the fans continuously pull air across heat sinks -- and these become smoke filters. A tiny little accumulation of dust or lint sticks to the tar in the air, and quickly accumulates *more* dust or lint, which accumulates more tar (it's sticky). Pretty soon you have this absolutely FILTHY sludge stuck to everything. Even just opening the machine, you get this foul stuff stuck to your hands. We had a pair of dishwashing gloves that we would use, when we had to open these machines and work on them. The stuff accumulates most on heatsinks, but also on any part that sticks out (like a coil or a socketed chip) or has a sharp edge (like a PCB/card).
I cannot describe how disgusting it was. I haven't even mentioned the smell. Every time you disturb one of these clusters of accumulated funk, it released this NASTY smell, like some drunk, dying smoker at a bar just flopped over on you and breathed his last in your face. We used to take the machines out into the parking lot, and take a few cans of canned air, and spray most of that crap out. We used to do it inside, but we learned the hard way that then the funk STAYS around.
I think Apple is completely justified in not wanting its employees to work on completely foul machines. I imagine no one would expect Apple to repair machines that people have vomited in, taken a shit in, or otherwise have fouled. I don't see why cigarette smoke gets a pass, just because a lot of people smoke.
Get this .. I was prescribed an 'air cast'. I had to drive to an office, fill out forms, and then be 'fitted' for what was essentually two Dr. Scholls air pillows with some stiff plastic and velcro. Cost billed?? $120. If I had known ahead of time, I could have made due with a $3 ace bandage.
.. our health care does need to be fixed. Maybe someday we could get a congress that recognizes that health care is so expensive because the damned doctors and hospitals charge too much instead of trying to fix my insurance that paid for all of the excessive charges at reduced rates.
Yes
The three day/two night 2 hour surgery bill was only $43K. The rest was surgeons, doctors, anesthesiologists, physical therapy, ambulance, etc. Visit Adventures in Healthcare Land for more details of what is screwed up with our health care system
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
you are absolutely right but that's not the point. the contaminated laptop was brought out of the person's home where someone else might have been subjected to the toxic build up on the laptop.
would you have the same opinion if the laptop was contaminated with asbestos dust? lead? would the apple tech be obligated to work on it then? i hope you would say no. nicotine is a carcinogen. just because billions of people willing inhale it doesn't change that fact.
subject yourself all you want but you can't ask others to do the same against their will.
"After all, driving a car is a privilege, not a right."
Try walking 20 miles to work when it's zero degrees farenheit outside. The privilege aspect is just BS so government can screw with you. If you need it to be able function in society to it's standards then it's not a privilege, it's required. They can call it a privilege when I'm not paying for it, until then it's like everything else I pay for, mine to decide.
And why was this modded down?
It's known that smoking is unhealthy, and given the option I would really like to put an end to that kind of contamination smoking provides.
So +1 for Apple from me on this.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Even an argument about this is ludicrous! These "repairman" should be taken to small claims for not doing their job and if Apple officially backs this BS - they are off their rocker! This must be a joke! This has got to be a joke! I am literally laughing at Apple, or any Mac user who still imagines that he/she has a "reasonable" company behind them! Sorry - this would be my last star to drop Apple off the cliff.
just sniffed and said: "I love the smell of class-action lawsuits in the morning. It smells like stale cigarette smoke and filthy lucre."
Well... actually, no.
It's a privilege that the community (in the guise of government) can (and has legitimate interest to) regulate as long as you're driving on roads the community pays for and maintains. You, as a community member, probably have some input to the process, but in a healthy community, that input will be scaled to an appropriate, and fairly minor, fraction. Ideally, this would be proportionate to the amount you contribute to cost and maintainance.
OTOH, If you drive 20 miles to work on your own privately owned and maintained roads, it's a matter of personal freedom. And strangely enough, it's legal in most places without license or other community interference.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Liberal? Apple is liberal? Apple stands on big government not on the liberal idea of small government.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I thought all electronics were smoke powered? You know, that's how you can tell it's broken, is when you let the smoke get out. At least for me anyways, I know that once I see the smoke come out of my electronics, they're toast.
Lots of city streets are narrow, and often devoid of wind meaning that the stench of smoking remains there for quite some time as other people walk by.
If you want nicotine, there are many of other ways you could acquire it which wouldn't harm those around you, such methods are also going to be far more efficient because most of it won't be floating away from you.
Yet it's perfectly fine for you to operate an exhaust-belching motor vehicle in the same confined street areas, poisoning those around you with your harmful fumes.
I suppose you could have walked or bought a Segway, but I'm going to insinuate that you're too inconsiderate to do that, and ignore the fact that maybe, since it's not against the law and it could be your preference, that you'd rather drive.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
You are promoting SATAN WORSHIP by these people!
They can't even SAY or READ the name of GOD, lest Divine presence be invoked!
Only SATAN is forbidden to CALL on GOD by Name! Don't fix JEW computers!
I don't have a car, but I don't need to walk to work. There are other options you know... Maybe not where you're from, but that's hardly normative. The point is that you're not *entitled* to a car, but you have a choice to spend your money on one. Something you can chose to pay for is more like a privilege than a right.
Show a man some news, distract him for an hour. Show a man some mod points, distract him for the rest of his life.
But while the comp is still under warranty? Let's assume that's three years, max... I don't think that's enough tar to justify their equivocation. Apple is still being ridiculous. A warranty is a warranty, and if Apple had put a clear statement in the warranty documentation at purchase, that would be fair.
Look at this and tell me that you wouldn't run screaming if someone asked you to repair that.
Ever hear of cans of compressed air? Ever hear of dust rags? I've had air intakes and fans get about as dirty without smoke. Also it looks like there may be pet hairs in some of those photos. Look around my apartment and I bet you'll find a lot of cobwebs yet nobody smokes inside. One tech told me I could tape a coffee filter onto the fan's air intake vent to filter the air.
Should there be a Law?
If I had been in a car, both vehicles would have been close to being totaled because this moron pulled out into traffic that she couldn't see coming because of a line of stopped cars, which she admitted to the police officer. Because I was driving a motorcycle, I was able to react far more quickly than in a car. If I had been in a car, I would have rear ended her at 45 mph and ending up with head and neck injuries that could have cost far more. Because I was on a bike, I was able to veer sharply to the right. I bounced off her rear quarter panel, kept the bike upright, and I coasted to a controlled stop. Total bike bill --- $900. Her car received over $2K worth of damage from my foot peg and foot.
The cost to society because so many morons drive cars and DON'T PAY ATTENTION is far more disproportionate than their contribution to society, regardless of whether or not motorcycles are involved. The majority of motorcycle crashes are caused by either alcohol (mostly single vehicle crashes that result in the application of Darwin's theory of evolution) or idiots in cars. Motorcycles, and their handicapped twin the scooter, cause far less congestion and road wear due to their smaller size and could reduce the amount spent on road costs every year. They use far less gas (my bike gets 45-50mpg, about what a Prius gets), require fewer resources to make, and are much cheaper. If Congress mandated catalytic converters on bikes, they would generate far less pollution also. But converters get up to around 800F degrees, and it's tough to find a place to put them so that legs don't get burned.
In other words, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
If it makes you feel any better, they do pay more for health insurance.
I hate it when people call tar build up "nicotine stains", the stain is not caused by nicotine.
They are deeply addicted to nicotine, and nicotine is a proven killer. But smokers, just like crack heads, will go to all lengths to rationalize their drug addiction. Ask any former drug addict or alcoholic about what drug is the hardest to kick and they will tell you that it is nicotine / cigarettes.
Republican leadership = Idiocracy
The question that arises is, to what degree is the rest of society responsible for ensuring that the world is toned down enough so that your defective breathing apparatus is able to cope?
Society spends a great deal of time, effort, and treasure on things like ramps, braille signs, "there may be peanuts in this" warnings, and even running public schools at a speed that ensure a good deal of the left side of the Gaussian has some sort of chance of coping with the curriculum.
I think perhaps the right solution here is for you, the defective one, to medicate or perhaps breathe through something that adjusts the air to your unusual needs. Not for us to cleanse the air of microscopic particulates, cat hair, pollen and so forth.
The idea that society is responsible for making the life of a person with defective parts "the same" as everyone else is very much idealistic, and in the end, impossible anyway. It's your problem; you should have to deal with it. Not everyone else. People are only as equal as they are; and in your case, you're unequal in the "what can I breathe" arena. It boils down to the idea of either removing many interesting things from the air in general, or adjusting your specific intake appropriately. I think the latter is both the most practical solution, as well as the one that addresses the reality of the situation: You're defective. Others are not. You're the one who needs to be making adjustments.
OTOH, To the degree that public behavior is a direct general health risk to others - which smoking is generally understood to be at this point in time - such public behavior should be restricted to sets of consenting and informed individuals. Smoker's clubs and bars; one's own home (presuming said home only contains consenting and informed individuals); areas where other people are virtually certain not to be affected (out on a lake or ocean, etc.)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Smoke all you want. They didn't say you can't smoke. They said the warranty is void.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
I have, and I agree. It's totally disgusting.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
Hooray for the nanny-state arguments. Let's also work on french fries, Budweiser, skiing, mountain biking (it seems every serious mountain biker has a shattered shoulder), being too fat, being too thin, pot (oh, already do that), too much sitting in front of TV/computer/books, running (terrible for the knees), etc. etc.
....
The impending health care legislation will make everyone feel like they have a right to modify other people's behaviors, even the "healthy" ones which have injury risks.
First they came for the smokers, but I didn't smoke so I didn't say anything. Then they came for the fat people, but I wasn't fat.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Slashdot odds are that this story turns out to be pure crap. It's always been a little bit of an issue here with a submission from a blog or other less than solid source ca while uses a Slashdot "editor" to pound the Accept button while shrieking about rights and information needs to be free and so forth, and we discover later that there was some other issue, a misunderstanding, or no issue at all. Now that many have run out of I Hate Microsoft steam, Apple and Google are the natural targets.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
1. I was commenting on whether it was good business or not, not whether it was right or wrong. There's a difference.
2. Even ignoring the difference, it's not discriminating against them any more than it is refusing to repair a machine someone has pissed on. Both void the warranty. for the smoker, they should make a claim under their insurance policy for "smoke damage" - except that, since it was an INTENTIONAL act that caused it, the claim will rightly be denied.
3. I doubt very much they're doing this to someone who's a casual smoker - it's probably a machine that is so full of crap, crud, ash, tar, dead skin particles, human hairballs, and weevils that one or more fans aren't working properly, cooling surfaces are obstructed, optical drive heads gummed over, hard drives with lots of re-allocated sectors due to head crashes, and/or traces shorting out. For those machines ... that's abuse, and as such, not covered under warranty.
At one place I worked, one of the sales guys computer went down. I was asked to fix it. The guy was a heavy smoker, weekend ecstasy user, picked his nose whenever he thought nobody noticed (or right in front of you if he was still zoned out) ... I said "Give me 15 minutes - I have to go to the store to get some equipment" and came back with a 4-litre of bleach and 2 pairs of yellow rubber gloves.
Boss: "You're not going to insult the guy by working on his machine wearing rubber gloves!"
Me: "You want to do it? I'll stand there and tell you, step-by-step, what to do. I'll even give you the rubber gloves."
Boss: "I'm not touching it!"
So, was I wrong to "discriminate" against someone because they were a filthy disgusting pig? Even if he IS in the minority?
Times change. Smokers are now in the minority, and our culture has grown up a bit - we ask that smokers assume at least SOME personal responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. When they were in the majority, there wasn't either the political or the economic will for most people to do so, and those of us (like me) who kept cajoling people (parents, friends, relatives) to quit for their own good were fighting the good fight, in an uphill battle. The battle, unfortunately, still isn't over.
It's not breech of contract - abuse isn't covered by warranty, and a machine clogged up with tar and ash is an abused machine, same as if it were in a steel mill and coated in fly ash and fines.
I've done a hardware repair on a client's computer who smokes.
Never again.
Plus, if you're ever going to sell your house, taking it outside is a good idea. Buyers can smell it, and you can't get that smell out without replacing every soft surface (carpets, etc.) and fresh paint in every room.
Guess what? The vapors from that paint may be toxic as well. Is Apple refusing to repair Macs when it was in a room that was painted? Actually many things outgas Volatile Organic Compounds, including Macs.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I've seen computers completely gunked out by smokers in a lot less than 3 years. Look at a smokers' keyboard. Before membranes became common, many heavy smokers had to replace them every few MONTHS.
Apple doesn't put a "dropping your iPhone in the toilet will void the warranty" either, but you won't get far with that - abuse is abuse.
If your computer is so jammed up with foreign matter that it fails, whether it's from pet hair, smoking, or water, that's excluded. "Defects in workmanship or materials" means just that. It doesn't mean abuse, contamination, misuse, or not taking proper care of it.
Let the smokers chalk it up to the TCO of smoking ... maybe they'll cut back or quit.
Likely there is a clause in the warranty that voids if the computer was used in a damaging environment. Could that be what apple is saying? eg. Smokey greasy kitchen, dusty factory. When in college, the 70's, I fixed TVs. Heavy smoke kills those older sets. BTW: cockroaches do to. I have vacuumed inches of roaches from the inside of TVs. ug.
Facts take all of the premium out of arm waving - T. Reynolds
but I think it should be something that is illegal to expose other people to
How about if I make it illegal to expose people to your car's exhaust as well? I use to ride my bike 100 to 200 miles a week and I hated having to breath in car exhaust. Or take alcohol, though it's one of the most dangerous drugs it's legal. When the US made it illegal by passing Prohibition all it did was make organized crime rich and powerful.
I think I'll sue the thousands of drivers that passes me or I pass today on my bike ride.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I second this motion. I have worked on my mother-in-law's computer in the past. She chain smokes and that computer was NASTY. I don't know if that is a biohazard or not, but it damned sure should be. Just messing with the case and the screws gets your hands sticky. If it's got that nasty sticky stuff on it, I say void the warranty.
A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding...
You know what, fuck you... I have a severe case of asthma and have had MANY attacks out in public because I got too close to someone smoking.
You know what, fuck you... I have a severe case of hangover and have had many of said hangovers made worse by someone coughing up half their lungs under the excuse of having asthma while standing near a smoker.
Face it - if you want to do business with the public, then you have to deal with what society considers "the public."
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I call BS on this one. Every biker I know says a car handles quicker under emergencies than a bike. You can find demonstrations of this fact on the internet.
Take, for instance, the Imola circuit, where both Formula 1 and motorcycle races have been held. Fastest lap on four wheels: Fernando Alonso in 2006 at 1:24.569. Fastest lap on two wheels: Michel Fabrizio in 2009 at 1:47.736. There are several other circuits that have both car and bike races, compare lap times on any of those and you will see that bikes are *much* worse on the curves.
You don't really have a bike, do you?
You're mistaken in thinking that the buildup of smoke residue on the device is particularly toxic. You have no particular evidence that is true; handling nicotine/tar in solid form is obviously very different than inhaling it in atomized form. Your asbestos parallel is apt; in most circumstances, asbestos is perfectly harmless.
It seems like you need to emotionally distance yourself from the issue and view it more dispassionately.
I strongly suspect the concept of marriage has been around since the idea of chattel slavery was coined, which would be well prior to the use of Latin.
Slavery in general was known in Shang-dynasty China (1500-1066 BC) and ancient Egypt, and is recorded in the Babylonian code of Hammurabi (1750 BC), and the Sanskrit Laws of Manu (600 BC.)
For most of history, marriage bore no resemblance to a union of equal partners, as the optimists like to pretend it is today. The woman was subject to the man in almost every instance, and her options, if any, were severely limited.
I have no respect for the institution at all, personally.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Why not? Isn't hygiene a proper public concern? Is it not a factor with spread of disease? Isn't smell a direct indicator of hygiene? I don't see any problem at all with handing out a solid fine if you appear in public and bring bodily stench with you.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
a really bad idea.
So is dust.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
nicotine itself has not ever been found to be carcinogenic. tobacco smoke? sure, sure, but not nicotine. nicotine isn't a safe chemical, it's actually pretty deadly, but there's been nothing to suggest or prove that nicotine, by itself, causes cancer.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
I think you will find that many smokers readily accept their responsibility as smokers. However, no smoker can stand the attitude often held by non-smokers. If I, as a smoker, am being considerate enough to not smoke near you, could you be considerate enough not to call me a filthy disgusting pig?
For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
If you are trying to minimize the cost that the rest of the population has to pay when a motorcyclist gets in a crash, then simply have the motorcyclist pay for their own medical treatment rather than subsidize it.
Motorcycle accidents cost insurance companies less than car accidents do. Motorcycles do less damage to cars, they cost less to replace, and the driver is much less likely to need medical treatment as the death rate is 25x higher than car accidents. Motorcyclists already pay with their lives for the increased danger, which conveniently lowers costs for the rest of us.
As for the 135 passive smoke deaths, it could be avoided with considerate smokers...
I haven't met any. Ever.
I don't know if you guys realize this, but to those of us who don't smoke, we can really smell it. I mean, really smell it. It's headache inducing if you're just wearing the same clothes that you smoked in yesterday.
I don't know if it causes physical harm or not that much later, but the smell is overpowering and disgusting, and if you really were considerate, you would go out of your way not to subject us to it. Your coworkers, because they can't avoid you without potentially losing income. And your friends, because you like them, and even though they're willing to put up with it, it's kind of a scumbag move to actually make them put up with it.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
The accounts from 3 smokers in unrelated incidents who gave their side of the story as being "wronged," and their accounts suddenly indicate the policy of Apple?
Sheesh. Nice "journalism."
Without looking at the machines, who here can really know the condition they were in? Maybe the darned thing WAS so full of ash and soot that it was hazardous to work on? I didn't get a look, did you?
they need to be put on an island where they can go extinct!!!!
(and personally, I'm OK with that being tomorrow), smoke is part of the "ambient air"
Until the day comes when driving vehicles is banned accidents causing injuries including disabilities and deaths will be a part of life. I smoke and I am willing to pay more for health insurance because of that but I am not willing to pay because I ride a bike and have been hit by vehicles as well as have breathed their exhaust. And yes, I am one of those who was disabled after being hit while riding my bike, I survived a Traumatic Brain Injury or TBI. And yes survived, while I was in a coma the docs told my family it would be a miracle if I lived. Well if I could I'd argue with those docs, they were wrong. Instead of it being a miracle my life has been a living hell.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
and if you spill it on your computer it will void your warranty.
So, does going to this site void the warranty?
You must live in far worse cities than I've been to then. Or you're not as sensitive to it.
Hong Kong, New York City, Toronto... all major cities with heavy traffic, and while the occasional exhaust from a poorly maintained engine makes me cough, cigarette smoke from a passing smoker still cuts through all of that and makes me gag.
Just like dropping and cracking a laptop case will void the laptop warranty, use in a smoking environment should void the warranty too. It's abuse, plain and simple, and manufacturers should write something into their warranties about exposure to excessive smoke.
My ex was a heavy smoker. We set aside a room for him to use his computer in and generally smoke himself to death - I even installed an exhaust fan in the room.
I would open up his computer about once a year and clean it out with a paintbrush and a shop vac. It was always clogged up with brown dust. His monitor screen was tinted an amber color, and when you'd wipe it off it was sticky.
You could actually see lines on the DVD drive drawer from the airflow (smokeflow). His DVD drives were lucky to last two years due to smoke coating the lens.
The color laser printer in that room one day reported that its laser unit had failed. I took the printer apart and discovered that all the optics were coated yellow-brown and the laser unit's photosensor couldn't see the laser beam any more. I cleaned the lenses and mirrors off with solvent and that got the printer working again.
Using electronics and computer equipment in a smoking environment should be a condition that would void the warranty - it was very clear that most of the problems with his computer equipment were caused by exposure to tobacco smoke.
Putting moderation advice in your
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have worked on machines that were from a house of smokers.
I don't blame them... I felt like I needed to be hosed off afterwards.
See this? Right there? THAT is why we have to push for smoking bans. Because of idiots who think they're not hurting anybody but themselves. Because you care so little about what other people think and you're so ignorant of the damage you're causing, we have to pass laws to punish you because "gosh, I shouldn't do that" isn't enough of an incentive and "hey, this is causing other people problems" never even crosses your mind.
Second hand smoke is rarely a personal choice.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Worked at a PC Repair shop in the 90's and the laptops were the worst. Can't understand how people use a computer with a layer of dirt thicker than the gunk on a scratch-off ticket. I still had to fix it but it was always shelved until I had no other choice.
I bough a dead iPhone and when I opened the box I was overcome by the smell of tobacco. The entire device was yellow, and when I tried to wash the boards in some mentholated spirits, it turned the spirits yellow too. I couldn't have it in the house, it stank so much. The tar ended up all over my finger tips as well. If I was a repairman, I'd ask to have it cleaned before returning it for service.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
1) Smokers pay far more taxes than non-smokers. They are well within their rights to tie up whatever medical resource that they want.
2) A car pollutes the air far more than a cigarette does. While a smoker might be the cause of secondhand smoke, a driver is the cause of air pollution, low visibility haze, global warming and the eventual death of the planet.
3) Mind your own business. Is your life so miserable that you have to impose yourself upon someone else's?
Apple uses these on iPhones. Not Macs though (yet).
I don't have a car, but I don't need to walk to work. There are other options you know... Maybe not where you're from, but that's hardly normative. The point is that you're not *entitled* to a car, but you have a choice to spend your money on one. Something you can chose to pay for is more like a privilege than a right.
There are other options you know... Maybe not where you're from, but that's hardly normative
I live in a city with a metropolitan area population of about two million people, i.e. not some little backwoods town. The nearest city bus stop to my house is nearly four miles away, and walking or riding a bicycle to/from said bus stop, while possible, isn't really recommended if you want to be safe or not have your clothes sticking to you when you get there. From that stop to the stop nearest my job is almost two hours once I'm on the bus, and then another two miles from that stop to my job. My job is only about 25 miles away, so it's not like it's some huge distance.
Of course, I could spend a lot of money on a cab, or just walk the entire distance, or be *really* adventurous and try to bike the whole way. The point being, there are *plenty* places in the U.S. where cars are a practical necessity because mass transit isn't something that's taken seriously in the vast majority of places, and our cities and communities are so spread out that it takes a non-trivial amount of time to get from point A to point B.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Yes, because all of the people with health issues (not by choice, obviously) that are exacerbated by cigarette smoke should just lock themselves indoors forever just because you're having a nic-fit.
A much more logical solution is to require all those who choose to kill not only themselves but all those around them to remain locked indoors. After all, between the two types of people (those with health issues and the complete fucking morons who choose to smoke), the smokers are the ones who choose to be that way.
I know you're an idiot - after all, you smoke. So I tried to emphasize the important words for you. I hope it helped.
The problem with smoking at home is when you are in the apartment below mine and you smoke on your window. Then I have to either close mine and feel really hot or leave it open and smell the unpleasant smell of smoke.
Who cares? If he enjoys killing himself with cigarettes, it's his business. He's not hurting anybody but himself.
That's an oversimplification.
Smokers have more sick days off of work. When they get sick they often get sicker than non-smokers and take longer to recover. More visits to the doctor and more hospital stays meaning more load on the health system meaning less room for others (although that argument is questionable - the health system will always be underfunded).
I'd argue that he is hurting others, but I still agree that a smoker has the right to smoke, as long as the rest of us retain the right to complain bitterly about it.
Ironically, many of those circuit board cleaners had carcinogens like toluene and benzene; people used to virtually wash their hands and arms in that stuff in the "good old days".
First of all, not all smokers smoke in the front of their computers. There are ones, like me, who don't smoke indoors at all.
About the "let the smokers pay for that" it's just a smoker-hater argument. We are already pay heavy taxes for each pack of cigarrettes.
We already suffer restrictions on where we can smoke AND we have to suffer public demonstrations of disgust from anti-smoking bigots, or unwanted advices.
I don't drink (at all), and lots of bad things happen related to alcoholic beverages consumption (fights, car accidents etc), and it does not matter where you drank (so no-drink zones would not prevent that). I'm very comfortable with a alcohol ban. What do you think?
I don't have a car, I don't drive. It's my choice. Public transportation saves fuel and pollutes less (oh, my poor lungs considering each of your particular cars exhausting pollution!). Should we ban private cars? Well, I could say yes.. It does not affect me at all!
What about football (the one called 'soccer' in USA)? I've seen masses of people doing ugly things in the streets after a match (fights, lynching, destruction of anything in the area etc). It does happen from time to time and all what the police can do is to control them in order to avoid major problems. - My taxpayer's money goes to the police. I don't like football. Should we ban it too? From my point of view it's OK.
Etc etc etc
Extend this level of interference to the things YOU do. How do you like that?
If a car came into a repair shop with the hint of drugs or some other extremely foul odor in the car, no one would not fault the dealer for refusing service. What's the difference?
I remember when people screamed about no smoking sections in restaurants as being unfair. I think refusing to work on computers that wreak from cigarette smoke is the next logical step. The employees who refused the service should have filed a complaint with osha and then made the issue more viable. No offense but cigarette smoke makes me very sick. I have worked on computers for years. To work on a computer with smoke residue makes me start coughing for at least a week. It is a shame that the owners of the computers were so ill considerate to the employees not to genuinely consider their health risks. Smokers smell worse than people with body odor in my opinion.
All that being aside I see more problems with computers of people who smoke than than those do not. Computer companies should amend their warranties to reflect that.
Second hand smoke leads to cancer. Just because someone wants to smoke does not mean i have to put up with it by breathing smokers exhausts fumes left on the items they own. Someone needs a reality check. again: Smokers smell worse than people with body odor in my opinion.
Regarding the city streets ... I would argue that nobody forced the drivers of vehicles to drive around other people, but they do, and often without caring who it offends or even makes sick. And *that* is why people fight back and pass laws about driving cars in public places. It's because drivers egregiously abused their rights and harmed others.
See how easy that was? Come down off that horse of your's, it's too high.
Apple users prefer LSD right?
The ad campaign running in Australia at the moment tells us that you have 38 times the risk of serious injury if you are on a bike compared to a car.
Bikes aren't that much cheaper than a car with roughly the same carrying capacity (eg tiny two seater hatchback). The motorcycle tyres are incredibly expensive and wear out much faster. The gear you have to wear when you ride to stop losing all your skin when you fall off is expensive (and the fact that a lot of people don't bother is one of the contributors to the serious injury figures above).
The fun of riding a motorcycle is hard to put a value on though :)
You know what, fuck you!! Asthma is caused directly by pollution and smog in urban areas, where concentration of cases matches high smog areas geographically and even improves when they do! So stop blaming smokers when you should blame cars, and the oil economy which causes your representatives to plan stupid, selfish systems like roads and remove the working, sensible ones like suburban trolleycars! Go on, mod me down -1 Disagree! (~ie the usual Troll i get these days for telling the truth!)
This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
I am vehemently anti-smoking, but this sure seems clear to me: if a smoke-contaminated computer constitutes a biohazard, then it is Apple's responsibility to protect its workers, not the consumer's responsibility. Apple knew the job was dangerous when they took it! Encountering smoke-contaminated computers is all in a day's work.
Apple with its sales increasing has some good money...so go for it..sue them.
This story is about laptops. And cigarette smoke can outright kill laptops.
Even the lowest quality desktop PC will have better airflow than the best laptop.
Most cases it is a single fan, single air-path solution.
Also, in most cases components are jammed as close to one another that any airflow you do get is being pumped through openings that are couple of millimeters wide at best.
And have you ever seen a heavy smoker use a computer?
Most of the time there is a lit cigarette in their hands while they type, or it is right next to the keyboard burning away in an ashtray.
Naturally, after a month or two there is as much ash inside the keyboard as is in the ashtray.
And on a personal note...
I was asked once to "fix up" a laptop from a smoker's home. Mother and son, smoking about 2-3 packs a day.
Recently, laptop started turning off by itself or it would slow down to a crawl. Considering it was riddled with spyware I decided to simply format the drive and reinstall windows.
Half way through the installation it just turned off by itself. OK... that is not good.
Restart the installation, this time paying very close attention to what is happening. And again, almost at the same spot - it turned itself off.
Only this time, it is obvious that it is turning off after its DVD has been working for couple of minutes copying files.
I pull out the Windows CD, and that thing is HOT.
I check the back, and I see that the single cooler this laptop has is housed behind a metal grating - presumably to keep out the dust.
Only there is not a single hole in the grating any more. They are all plugged up by some black substance - that turns out to be tar once I've scraped some of it off with a needle.
So, I've unplugged the holes as best as I can and then vacuumed all openings on the laptop for about 10-15 minutes.
Now, Windows installation made past that point and there sure is (warm) air coming out of the laptop - but still it turned itself off about 10 minutes later than the first time.
I had to take a large cooling fan, point it directly at that laptop and turn it up to the maximum setting in order to install Windows.
The laptop worked just fine - unless you used the optical drive AND hard drive AND processor at the same time for too long.
As it was a mostly Office and Email machine most of the time, turning off was no longer an issue after the cleaning I gave it.
Although, I imagine that inside it is probably covered with tar and gunk.
I've had CDs and DVDs returned to me that were clearly boxed and unused for months - that had a thin film of cigarette smoke gunk inside.
Wherever the air gets in - smoke gets in. Wherever the cigarette smoke gets in - tar gets in.
IMHO... Had that computer been a Mac, with its components crammed in as tight as possible to make it even thinner and elegant and with its slot loaded optical drive (for even more elegance) it would have burned out months ago.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
"Marriage" isn't religious. If you don't want to performs same-sex marriages in your church, then don't. There shouldn't be anyone forcing you to marry any given couple that walks in through your doors.
However, the word marriage isn't a religious term. Get over the fact that it's really a legal thing, as there is no real religious basis for marriage.
I used to work in an Apple repair shop during high school, and we hated working on smokers' comps. We toyed with the idea of denying service, but we needed the money. In this case, the second-hand smoke thing is kind of ridiculous to worry about, but it is truly nasty in the machine. Seeing the fans and parts with a tar coating all over them was sickening; I'm sure it shortened the life (of the comp and the user). If those were the indirect consequences, think of their lungs! I'd take the cases out back, hose them down, and use some kind of special cleaner on the MLBs, etc. Nasty!!
Yeah, if smoking was so dangerous, we'd be having 438,000 premature deaths a year cause by smoking, that is 1 in 5 deaths. Oh, wait, I'm told that's exactly what's happening.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Those were also the "good old days" when people (meaning your average person, not our species as a whole) didn't know nearly as much about the dangers of smoking.
I can still smell you 20 - 30 feet away when you're not smoking, and over 100 feet away when you are, even outdoors. And when I go into a smokers home, even for 15 minutes, my clothes reek of it after. Smoking is a filthy, disgusting habit - even most smokers will admit it. Just because you went outside for your smoking break doesn't mean the miasma didn't follow you back inside - it's in your lungs and your clothes.
And let's not get started on smokers littering, and letting their ashes fall on carpets and floors, and accidentally burning things, and setting a bad example for the next generation, and creating a cloud in front of building entrances.
Honestly, smokers stink. There's no getting around it.
Sure it stinks and there's a coating of tar on everything. You know what else? A lot the dust that usually collects as dust puppies is now stuck to the tar. This aggregate of tar and dust acts like an insulating blanket, preventing effective heat dissipation. Tobacco smoke is really bad for computers!
But you know what is absent inside the computers of smokers? Second hand smoke, that's what. Once the computer gets to the service centre, all the smoke has either exited the case or condensed as tar. So there's no danger from second-hand smoke. Apple should make it clear that contamination by tobacco smoke can void the warranty on the grounds that it can cause technical problems, but this business with secondhand smoke being an OSHA violation is utter bullshit.
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
"First they came for the smokers, but I didn't smoke so I didn't say anything. Then they came for the fat people, but I wasn't fat. ...."
I was fat, and I stood up for myself and my pot-bellied brethren: I spoke out!
But they just laughed at my jiggling double chin...
So, I smoke in some bar/restaurants where it is still allowed here (not ready for next year's ban in NC...), and would the dishwashers not be allowed to wash the ash trays, or plates, or glasses or anything else my smoke touches? OSHA violations? I don't think so. Moreso to that point, if you opted for a career as a bartender I'm sure you knew beforehand that yes, people smoke at bars. Smoking and drinking go hand-in-hand, so when the ban takes effect they'll be safe from my smokey plates and I'll be at home, spending much less on drinking out.
On the Apple - I'm fortunate that I'll never be taking my iBook to them, as its far out of warranty and I've opened it numerous times to bring it back from the dead (currently, a piece of Red Stripe case keeps the GPU in place enough for it to run). I recently found new employment, and I was considering starting a savings fund for a new Mac, but I'm now torn between getting the extended warranty, which is soooo pricey, or not because they won't service a smokey Mac. Maybe I won't even buy one now, I like having protection and service options for my equipment, and I like smoking. I'm not gonna stop anytime soon, and that means I'm not gonna stop computing and smoking too. How would they know though aside from smell? If I have a wood-burning fireplace am I at risk? Are they going to get a piss-test from my Mac? Do their employees not ride in smokey cars ever? Do they sanitize subway seats - I'm sure smokers sit on the seats from time to time.
Once again, Apple disappoints by being terribly lame when they don't need to be. I love my Mac, but it may be the last one I ever own.
I fix all sorts of computers. I smoke. I HATE getting a computer to work on that the person has been smoking at it. It is gross and disgusting and NASTY. I smoke outside and never by my computer. I spend good money for my house and for my computers and for my car - why in the world would I want to pollute my nest! Smoke outside people!! Keep your self and your living place clean!
I do not blame Apple for not working on your computer. CompUSA charges EXTRA in some stores to work on a smoke infested computer - they take it outside and clean it out so that they might be able to work on it. They (and myself) blow all of that NASTY crap out of the poor computer and personally, I clean everything that I can with alcohol to get the grunge off (except for the drives!) so that I don't have to smell them! PUKE! And yes, I charge extra for working on a NASTY computer wether it is smoke or pet hair and dust. A can of air is cheap! Clean out your computer once a year and keep it running forever....
CHEERS - I am going outside to smoke...
I don't know if you guys realize this, but to those of us who don't smoke, we can really smell it. I mean, really smell it. It's headache inducing if you're just wearing the same clothes that you smoked in yesterday.
Really? Huh. I will start washing my clothes more often. No joke, I was not aware of this...
Bullshit. Everyone dies, everyone gets sick, everyone visits the hospital. If you actually "talk to people", as you imply, you can and will find that tens of thousands of elderly (keyword: ELDERLY) smokers have been healthy all their lives, and have never been in hospital for anything more than childhood illnesses, childbirth, or maybe an accident. The anti-smoking hysteria simply goes to far, and cretins make idiot claims just like yours. We recently buried a smoker who hadn't even been in hospital for childbirth - when she gave birth, the hospital was a day's ride away! Tobacco had nothing to do with her demise. Diabetes killed her.
All I can say is, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Smoking is foolish, but it isn't the new asbestos, or DDT, FFS.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
1. First off, the taxes collected on smokers don't come near covering the costs associated (direct and indirect). Priced a lung transplant lately? And yes, even in the USofA, a lot of these are paid for by the government.
2. Unlike smoking, for which there is no "safe level", alcohol *in moderation* has benefits to the human body (and that's why other animals either make their own booze or like fermented products such as silage that's been sitting in the silo for months on end - talk about milk from contented cows :-)..
3. Here, dui isn't just a fine - it's a criminal record. We take drinking and driving seriously.
4. Viz cars and pollution - I park mine in the winter months (which, btw, are the ones that it's the most polluting). Parked it in September, as a matter of fact. I use public transit in the winter, and next spring I'm seriously thinking of switching to a bicycle or quadracycle. Also, the car has a catalytic converter. Are you ready to install a catalytic converter on your cigarette exhaust?
5. I have never cared about "professional sports." A ban on the political crapfest that is the Olympics wouldn't affect me either.
Look, if you already don't smoke indoors, you're half-way there. Why not give it up entirely - for YOU. You're the one who will save the money, not have to go outside in the middle of winter at 3 am to satisfy a craving that you really wish you could sleep through, not have your clothing smell, be able to taste your food better, etc.
Neither I, nor a number of people I know smoke. I do not find the attached tobacco odor as you describe it. I also don't recall anybody making similar statements. I think you're rather more unique than you would believe.
It must depend on the person. I live in a city where we don't even know quite how bad the air quality is (it's being investigated). It is bad enough that certain neighborhoods near the rubber factory have needed to be vacated due to very high cancer rates. That said, I walk past dozens of smokers outside of hospitals and I've learned to hold my breath while I'm within 15 feet of them, plus another 30 if I'm downwind. If you can't smell that you've been desensitized to cigarette smoke specifically. It smells nothing like vehicle exhaust, and I personally find it to be the second most malodorous thing I've smelt (the first is high molar HCl, which smells like pain; number three is a moldy, septic cadaver soaked in formaldehyde).
Plus, with extrinsic hypersensitivity asthma there's a specific allergen involved (or more likely multiple allergens). It doesn't even need to have an odor, and it could easily be present in only cigarette smoke, nor do the health effects (e.g. carcinogen) matter. With intrinsic asthma there could be an attack with about any respiratory insult, it's less specific.
As for second hand smoke in general, I half consider it to be assault. A puff of cigarette smoke will paralyze your respiratory cilia for 30 minutes, and the long term health effects are far worst than getting punched. But I'm biased since I get to learn about/deal with the bad effects of smoking. Did you know that 70% of women who have a child with a birth defect directly attributable to her smoking will continue to smoke for subsequent pregnancies? Facts like that, and my personal distaste for the smell make me very unsympathetic toward the activity. That said, I don't think Apple can not honor the warranty. If it's bad enough to be an OSHA violation then they should just replace the laptop. OTOH, I think they would be absolutely justified in changing the warranty so that it no longer covers tar build-up.
Smoking is a choice. It's not coerced. It's not even a choice in the sense that having sex is a choice -- there isn't some biological instinct built into you over the course of untold eons demanding that you smoke. There is, at best, peer pressure, and that's been on a long decline. And yes, there is also addiction, but you rarely get addicted to smoking without initially choosing in the first place (some people got military-issue cigarettes in wartime, which is somewhat coerced, and I think that does messy up the situation a bit, but going forward that isn't happening anymore).
It's also an inherently relevant choice, since it actually damages the electronics involved. You choose to place yourself in a category that damages electronics, and your electronics are damaged. It's absolutely okay to discriminate against a minority who willfully chooses to engage in actions which damage electronics, and by definition 100% of this minority do, when you're considering repairing said electronics. In the same way that it's okay to discriminate against people who use more electricity by charging them more with their electricity bill.
That said, I think Apple's contract should have had something in there about this more explicitly.
It is a known fact that driving 1 mile in an automobile produces more toxins than a lifetime* worth of heavy smoking. Conclusion of the report is that; In order for cigarette smokes to match the same amount of air pollution in the stated cities, it will require; (from report) * 33 millions cigarettes per person each year * 91,300 cigarettes per person each day * 3,810 cigarettes per person each hour * 64 cigarettes per person each minute http://jarvisjerk.blogspot.com/2009/07/cigarette-smoke-vs-car-emission.html
Civilization, the death of dreams.
and I smoke weed, and on a good day, may be tripping balls on LSD.
No, they're not, and never have been. Take a look at the label on one of them - "Warranty void if this hole is blocked" - it's for air to get in or out - every time the drive cools down, air is sucked in. Blocking the hole voids your warranty.
http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp
Either you've never held a hard drive in your hands, you can't read, or you're dumb as dogshit. Your call.
I was not replying to a Dutchman AFAIK. I assume you have no problem with light drugs, so that makes you coherent.
Personally I am for legalising light drugs up to alcohol, and banning tobacco and heavy drugs. Growing up with smoking parents may have influenced me.
Anyway, since you are Dutch, your society has a social safety net. Smokers are hurting your society by weighing on the public health care system. Someone has to take care of all those wasted lungs, and lung cancer takes a hell of a long time to kill a person.
Y'know, I'm from Italy. That's exactly the same thing mafiosi say all the time. They're just "catering people's needs" and when they shoot people is a business between them, without hurting anyone else in society. That's called omertà and that's a very dangerous attitude that has nothing to do with freedom.
While the law should IMO not legislate on your sexual practices, laws are still valid in your house.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Sounds like an amazingly unbiased source. Can't imagine them having a desire to minimize the risks associated with smoking...
Yeah, I can see where this is going...
Get a fucking live.
Someone in the car in FRONT of you is smoking and you are annoyed? Seriously? Get a life, ...
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919
If you were female you wouldn't be just wetting your pants....
Maybe not the headaches the other guy gets. But it is always extremely obvious who smokes when you get within a metre of them
Hate to break this to you, but a metropolitan area population of only 2 million IS a little backwoods town.
You have a woefully underperforming nose.
It's an Apple .. who gives a fuck .. buy a PC like the rest of the world.
I actually have a pretty good sense of smell, I just get overwhelmed by the stench from cars and compared to that tobacco smoke is barely noticeable to me.
/Mikael
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
The issue is that there is a breach of contract going on, not that apple hates smokers. Thats fine if you want to the void the warranty due to the damage caused by smoking. However, if you're going to do that, it better damn well be in your contract, which it doesn't appear to be in this case.
The thing is, many electronics vendors DO void warranty work for harsh operating environments. If your mobile phone gets just damp enough to turn the litmus sticker red you are SOL. If it can be determined that dust or temperature extremes were the root cause of failure then many devices are not covered.
Besides that, from my own personal experience, tobacco smoke residue has to be the second most hazardous substance on electronics I have encountered (the first being corrosive sulphur dust). I have seen computers in coal mines covered in black soot that were much less affected than computers from point of sale systems used at pubs when smoking was allowed there. At the mine computers easily lasted twice as long with simple maintenance with an aerosol dusted can. NOTHING could clean that nicotine and tar sludge out of those smokers computers!
I am actually surprised that, with all the conditions that can void a warranty on electronics, that anyone would be surprised that smoking would void a warranty. The only thing that I find surprising was the really lame excuse that it was a biohazard. Apple should just be honest and say the real reason: tobacco sludge in your computer made it break, and since you put it there it isn't our problem and you have to pay for it. I guess since some heavily addicted smokers have thin skins such a policy should be clearly but diplomatically pointed out at time of purchase.
Not if the democrats get their bill through.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
Then don't stand around people who smoke. I have never seen a smoker light up around a bunch of non-smokers. Every smoker I have ever known goes off to the side somewhere that is out of the way or with a group of other smokers. It's also funny how you have asthma problems around cigarette smoke, but not around vehicle exhaust smoke or fire smoke in general. "Hey, those people shouldn't be allowed to barbecue because some little punk with asthma has decided to stand right next to the grill."
Smokers are very considerate compared to you fat, SUV driving, anti-smoking whiners.
All of the things you mention affect only the person doing it. Smoking (and maybe excessive drinking) affects others.
I'm not for a nanny state, but don't expect me to stand up for the nauseating direct and indirect health effects of the smoker. You smoke, you'd better be doing it out of my face.
Sorry, it's very obvious when:
a) using anything from a smoker's house
b) being near a smoker, whether they are smoking or not.
c) driving behind a smoking driver
d) someone is smoking nearby.
Zippthorne is in no way unique in this regard, even if your own olfactory sense is not processing the stench in the same way.
As a former Mac Genius, I've denied coverage for an iMac machine that I'd say was 'smoked to death'. It was so pungent and strong, we could barely stand being in the closed-off Genius room (were we did our work). It was awful, and that was before we opened the machine. Cigarette smoke is tends to make the usual dust-bunnies way worse. They stick to everything. The machine was completely stained brown and had succumbed to horrible over heating. All the vents and passages were clogged with crap. I can't post the photos, but anyone who has worked on computers I think would agree. It was just disgusting.
Even the employees who were smokers agreed with the decision. I felt sorry for the customer - I really did - but ultimately he agreed and understood my decision (he wasn't particularly happy, but wasn't upset either).
I have nothing against people smoking for themselves. But its unreasonable to ask or force people to share in it.
'/dev/wit' is not available.
I didn't say I was annoyed much, just that I CAN smell it and it IS nasty. I can't help it if they've managed to kill off their senses so badly they don't know how much they stink or what the smoke smells like. Yes, I CAN smell it and yes it's nasty. Do I bang on their window and bitch? Nope! That's their business and fine by me, they sure as hell won't do it in MY car though. It's sure nice to walk into an office and not be assaulted by the stench or be assigned to an office that a smoker used to use that's covered in brown ick. There's a reason why cars that have been smoked in sell for less and are not as desirable - they stink!
My state's about to pass a law banning smoking in most bars, I can hardly wait! I went out to a bar for the first time in ages last night - first thing I had to do upon entering my home was strip and toss my clothes in the dryer and take a shower. My hair reeked, my clothes smelled too, and I couldn't stay long because the whole place stunk. I've seen what this does to computers and it's pretty obvious what it does to lungs. When you blow your nose after being someplace like that and the snot is BROWN then duh it's not good. If folks want to kill themselves fine but don't try to force me to join them and don't act like it's a God given right to do something so offensive to others.
So - get off my lawn! :-P
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
That's right! You can't get hurt in a car! Yeah, when I was in a low speed car accident years back I only broke several bones in my hand at a cost of $50,000 or so after all was told. My hand was damaged by being caught between a combination of the air bag pushing towards me and my inertia pushing towards the steering wheel.
As a straight atheist, should I then be entitled to a CU option instead of marriage as I don't want to have anything to do with religion?
Genuinely curious - I'm of the opinion that marriage these days has very little to do with religion (despite often being done in a church). Two (or more!) people can love each other without getting married, yet certain rights and benefits are awarded to married couples that aren't available to two people that love each other and live together. One of my mother's friends only just got married to the man she's been together with for probably 30+ years, and it was entirely to do with legal nonsense that you can't sign over to a non-spouse (living will, estate, things of that nature I think; I'm not overly familiar with what happened)
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
That's not from smoking, it's from dust and dander in the air. His father probably has pets.
negative. the orange color is a pretty solid indicator that this is a smoker's house.
a house with pets will have larger hairs (and plenty of them!), those are more like fibers from carpeting.
sure, clean houses get dusty computers, too, that's just the nature of computers because of how air flows through them. a house that is well-maintained will have very fine, soft dust (highly processed by vacuums).
not photograph-able: the sticky-to-the-touch quality of that orange dust. uugghhhghghghgh
my shop does mostly PCs, and we will also not warranty hardware problems on parts with exposed circuit boards (or fans) when they're coated in that gross residue - for both neglect-to-the-equipment and this-is-gross-you-can't-pay-me-enough reasons
Men can use vibrators too. cf: Bill O'Reilly
I think there is more drug use BECAUSE they are illegal. It makes the entire ordeal more risky and exciting.
If all drugs were legal, people might stop using the law as a barometer for what is "good" and "bad" and start thinking for themselves. Drugs would become ubiquitous, able to be purchased from any place for a couple of bucks. Drug dealers and gangs would weaken and society would be a better place. I have lived in places where drugs aren't illegal for personal use and they had nowhere near the drug or crime problems that the US has.
You can work in environments with extremely dangerous stuff and OSHA is completely fine with it. All they require is that the dangers are disclosed and marked, and that employees have the requisite protection from those dangers. If tobacco residue was a health hazard (it isn't), then all you'd have to do is provide whatever protective gear was needed to mitigate it. Gloves and a mask, probalby.
That's all OSHA is about. It isn't about making sure everyone works in a clean office environment with no dangers in sight. It is about making sure that people are aware of the dangers in their work environment and have access to the equipment and training needed to mitigate them.
Because to remain a compassionate society we have to soak up the medical costs associated with the problems it causes. If we want to decrease those costs without throwing people to the wolves, the only alternative is to encourage/compel healthier behaviors.
It's a balancing act, but in human social systems "no man is an island", however much some of its members might wish they could be.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Many people here have this "Well you can't make workers work with hazardous materials!" attitude. Really? Then where do things like car batteries (which have lead and sulfuric acid) come from? Where do your computer chips, which use all kinds of chemicals to make, come from? If you said "Some third world country," you are wrong. Intel, for example, has the majority of fabs in the United States. So how's the work?
Well what OSHA says is that employers can't expose employees to hazards unknowingly, and without proper training and protection. That's all. What this means is you CAN be exposed to hazards so long as:
1) The hazards are noted. Things such as proper signage for the types of hazards, markings for areas with dangers ans so on.
2) You are trained in those hazards. They give you a course and materials that say "This is how to work safely in this environment."
3) You are provided with safety gear to mitigate the hazards. So a helmet for a construction zone with falling object hazards, protective gloves for a caustic hazard and so on.
That's all that is required. Your employer just can't send you off to a dangerous situation with nothing.
So, in the event a computer with smoke residue was a hazard (it's not) then they'd simply need to make sure this was known, and proper protective equipment was provided. At that point, their workers can't sue. They can quit if they don't want to do the work, but they'd have no standing for a lawsuit. So long as the dangers are stated, mitigated and trained for there is no problem.
Nothing is as bad as dried ramen sauce
it completely ignores smoking's enormous cost to society. Right now a genius doctor is studying how to cure a completely avoidable form of lung cancer instead of researching a naturally occurring one. Right now food costs more because land is being used to grow tobacco. Right now gas costs more because trucks are burning fuel transporting smokes.
"But smokers pay taxes" you'll whine. There's a deference between money and resources. Money is an abstract and unlimited concept. Fuel, Land and Doctor's time are not.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
That's kinda the point of society. We get together and agree on common ground. So far, the common ground (that isn't making billions peddling smokes) is pretty dead set against the things. Personally I can't wait for smoking to be stamped out. It infuriates me that there are people w/o enough food to eat in this country while my tax dollars are going to tobacco subsidies. Because your 'legal pleasure' sure needs free money from the feds...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Really, you've never met a considerate smoker because you've never noticed them. They're the ones who don't sit in the smoking section of restaurants because they know how much it sucks to have someone smoke in the same building as you when you're eating. They smoke in the wind so that their clothes don't stink. They pick their time to smoke.
I mean I could say i've never met a considerate Jewish person, and that's racism (I've never met a Jewish person though, so it's not racism), but you've never met a considerate smoker and that's somehow alright? It's funny the people who normally complain about the rights of others being trampled trample the rights of others whenever they get the chance.
Or here's an idea. How about not going to work for a place that you know people smoke in if you can't put up with it?
Would you go to work as a fireman and complain about fire danger? Would you go to work as a police officer and complain about getting shot at? Would you go to work as a garbage man and then complain about the smell of trash? Would you work at McDonald's and complain about the disgusting "food" that they serve?
I fully understand your point, and agree for the most part - however there is one way in which people knowingly harming themselves is affecting us - we end up paying their medical bills.
I'd rather my tax dollars were spent on more deserving causes, but do not support making smokers, bicyclists, and other "high risk" groups forfeit healthcare.
(Disclaimer - I am a cyclist)
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Man, I wish I had mod points. Well said.
Isn't that why we pay over $3/pack in taxes?
And who the f**k are you to call me lazy and unproductive? I get more done in a day than most IT monkeys get done in a week. Douchebag. Those smoke breaks act as impromptu meetings and a chance to reflect on what I'm doing.
Slashdot and Facebook cause more loss of productivity in my environment than smoking ever could.
This is reason enough for me to quit. I hate the idea that I might stink.
This is A-Grade bullshit. I have been a chain smoker for five years. You could probably tarmac a small freeway from all the crap that has fallen into my keyboard. But there is no tar whatsoever on my heatsinks or fans. I just cleaned them last week ( after five years ) and there is dust, yes, but no tar.
The most disgusting computer I ever saw was one kept in a screen-printing factory with a concrete floor. Grey dust 2mm thick over the whole motherboard. Can people refuse warranty service on computers because they don't like your carpet?
Take your anti-smoking FUD and stick it somewhere else.
As an asthmatic who grew up in a rural area outside a small, pretty much unpolluted city in southern Oregon, you can't convince my my asthma is directly caused by pollution and smog in urban areas. I'm not blaming smokers for my asthma, but they certainly don't make it easier on me when they're smoking in my breathing space.
That said, I'm against penalties for smoking in most outdoor areas (and believe that reasons for bans inside most commercial and public places are obvious), and have become quite adept and not breathing for extended periods of times without triggering my asthma.
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
I work at an Apple authorized repair/reseller shop in WA. When we receive a heavy smokers unit 1) it stinks 2) the nicotine crystallizes on the dust/cobwebs inside the computer. These webs are nasty yellowish color and if a tech gets a bare hand in the crap, the smell sticks with you for a week.
It's one thing to insist that you simply choose not to work as a fireman if you are afraid of fire danger, since in that case handling fires is your job. In the case of people smoking, however, you can only really say the same thing in a smoking bar. Regulations protecting employees from smoking customers are truly in the same class as other regulations regarding workplace safety.
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
So sad, too bad. Driving while high is illegal in all 50 states, and 40+ have statutes that including cannabis and other illicit drugs under the umbrella of public intoxication.
I don't believe you for a second. Your statement may look good for slashdot, but one would expect all electronics to fail because of smoke. Are TVs, VCRs, DVDs, PVR's, fridges, sound systems, game systems, microwaves ovens, clocks, etc., failing because of smoke? Of course not.
Olrik (non-smoker)
So should a$$holes
If it won't boot, Fsck it!
A restaurant may not necessarily be owned by the public, but it still is a public establishment in that anybody can come in and eat and they shouldn't have to breathe in smoke while doing so.
Where the real hipocracy is, is when life-time smokers expect expensive treatment to keep them alive for another 5 years.
Smoking isn't a guarantee that you'll get one of those diseases, it's simply a dramatic increase in odds. We all know some smoker who is 90 years old and has been smoking for 75 of them.
Liberty isn't just about money, guns and cars, it's just as much about what kind of life you wanna lead urself.
It certainly is if I want to spend my life making money and buying guns.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm even farther right. I don't believe in bans in private restaurants, those people can choose to go elsewhere and vote with their wallet. If the OWNER wants to ban smoking in his restaurant, I'm all for it and I'll vote with MY wallet and go elsewhere. No hard feelings even. I can sympathize with non-smokers who want a 100% smoke-free environment. Just don't mandate it for every business to follow suit. If enough people cared they should have lobbied the RESTAURANTS to eliminate their smoking sections not abuse the lawmaking bodies to ban something perfectly legal.
I don't eat at restaurants which banned smoking in my town unless I'm meeting someone there. In the city I work in which banned smoking in private businesses, I don't eat at real restaurants. Period. I'll just get fast food to go.
I don't expect them to change their mind in those places in my town that eliminated their smoking sections. I respect their stance and I just go elsewhere. When you take away my ability to go elsewhere nearby, I get pissed.
In my own home, I'll do what I want within reason (murder is out obviously), whenever I want and with whoever I want. My house is the United States of ME (and my family of course). Anyone who feels otherwise can kiss my ass.
I'm all for gay marriage BTW. The Repubs who are against it are hypocrites in my opinion. Chest-thumping and cries of freedom yet they want to oppress scientists, intellectuals, atheists and homosexuals. I'm a devout atheist AND a libertarian. I'd love to see Palin publicly humiliated and stripped of her ability to serve in public office. Religion has no place in public office. Period. That's a private matter. Don't think I'm an Obama fan by any means. He pisses me off for other reasons. His stance on gun control is appalling. The liberals can have my bullets.... minus the brass. For free even.
Will there ever be a candidate crying for freedom and small government that isn't a bible-thumping, batshit-crazy whackjob? I don't want someone in office who ignores facts or twists them to try to make them fit the fairy tales their mommy and daddy made them sit through on Sundays. Period. That's like killing in the name of the tooth fairy.
"The outgassing" isn't smoke.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
I'm actually partially allergic to the damn stuff. It's bad enough that when I'm near a smoker for more than about a minute, I have to remove my contacts and my eyes get bloodshot. It's damn unpleasant.
Blog
You know what, Fuck You... Im a considerate smoker, I try to stay away from people who dont smoke, especially children. BUT if you come close to me while Im smoking, its your own damn fault you got a asthma attack. Same diff if you cant swim and you got too close to a swimming pool and fell in. Im sorry your wet, but its not my fault you got to close
Curious. Marijuana is way less addictive and toxic than cigarettes or alcohol, and I am pretty sure that you are not allowed to smoke it at home, in most of the US at least. And last time I checked yes, penalties could be quite harsh, all the way to jail time.
Doesn't stop most people. My friend willfully ignores overreaching laws he doesn't agree with his own home.
You cannot beat your wife
You can't do that at home here but in some localities in this state it's legal on the courthouse steps on Sunday.
raise your army
Unorganized militias are supposedly perfectly legal. Doesn't stop ones that don't fall in line from being labeled domestic terrorists though. The tree of liberty needs a little watering anyway.
print money
You got me on that one. It's just plain wrong to print your own money. And kinda tough these days.
or shoot people,
Depends why you shot them. If someone is robbing my house, I'm going to shoot them if they are armed or put up resistance. If someone poses a threat to any member of my family, I'm going to shoot them many times. If they just kinda piss me off, I can't really get away with shooting them. If they piss me off they won't be in my house anyway.
and you cannot do bunches of other things.
You can do whatever you want. You really can. Providing you aren't noticed and reported. It's my house and I WILL do whatever I please. Fortunately I have some morals and ethics and won't go summarily executing house guests or doing lines of coke with my kids.
Actually the only thing that I can think of that would be OK inside your home and illegal outside is walking around naked.
Personally I'm all for that being legal in public. If a dog can walk around naked, why can't I? We're both mammals. We both have penises. To me it seems a little unfair. What's so repulsive about the human body we don't want to see? I probably wouldn't do it very often because I'm thin and get cold pretty easily but hey, I'm still for it.
Hygiene comes into play as well. I'm a smoker but my equipment is cleaned regularly and I change my home air filters often. I have never had equipment that was that bad off.
You have run across a lot of smokers with poor sanitation and cleaning practices.
I have not had one machine fail due to smoking-related damage but I have repaired many machines from DIRTY homes with chain smokers.
If the smoke CAUSED the failure, I can see denying the claim, otherwise it's wrong and likely illegal if they opt not to repair or replace.
Some people are more sensitive than others. My brother smokes, and my Mum can tell the days he's been home from the smell, and he doesn't even smoke in the house, just coming in is enough.
I was a smoker and I hated working on a heavy smoker's computer for that exact reason. Everything inside the machine was sticky and smelled like stale smoke. Even so, if Apple wanted to exclude smokers they should have put it in writing BEFOREHAND.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
fuck you and the car you drove here in - you're inflicting the pollution from your car on me, and I'm not wearing a face mask because you won't cycle. You cause environmental damage to the buildings with your shitty car, and you're inflicting ALL of us, on the sidewalk, in the restaurants, on the beaches, in the office buildings, with your selfish attitude and behaviour with your car.
How does that switch work for you?
"(cigarette) smoke turns into dirty-looking sidewalks from the tar"....
shit you're kidding me, right? Easy enough to put those outdoor ashtrays back in place, and your problem's solved.
Car drivers egregiously abusing their rights and harming others - you're all ASSHOLES, and I'm going to SIK the GUMMINT on you BASTARDS ---- WWAAAAHHHHHHH !!!!
Well, if I ever bump into you you'd better remind me not to blow smoke directly into your face like I normally would.
The way I parsed AC's comment, that's what he was actually proposing too (except allowing the religions who have co-opted the word to keep it). Maybe my own bias though, since I agree. Hetero- or Homosexual, as far as the government's concerned, let them all be "unions" and leave worrying about whether it's a "marriage" or not between the couple and their magic sky daddy.
not one of us has seen the machine in question, it could have been so "smoked" that it was unhygienic. not to mention that a lethal dose of nicotine is a mere 70mg. let's say they washed the machine, there might be enough nicotine on it to kill a man.
As for second hand smoke in general, I half consider it to be assault.
Oh, come off it. It's this kind of self-righteous bullshit that makes it real difficult sometimes to have sympathy with genuine allergy sufferers. Because I really do have sympathy, in principle, for people who suffer from allergies. I'm happy to be considerate, if there's an asthmatic present I'll gladly stub it out or move away, and I'm happy to pay for inhalers and whatnot out of my taxes. But when the persecution of smokers gets going, I just get pissed off. Here in the UK, the government has recently crossed the line, to the point where I now feel that the civil liberties issues are now more pressing than the health aspect.
It's about time people realised that there are both smokers and non-smokers in the world, and a reasonable accommodation has to be reached between the two based on mutual respect and consideration for each other.
Oh, and I'm sorry, but your personal dislike of the smell can form no part of a sensible debate on the subject. If I didn't like the colour of your jacket it'd hardly be reasonable for me to suggest you go home and change so as not to offend my senses.
GP was talking about smoking and the non-damage has caused to computers, in his own experience. Computers don't get cancer.
But they do get a tar build up.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
I, on the other hand, am far enough to the left that I could possibly be considered to be a communist, and I agree with you. This simply isn't a left/right issue, it's a civil liberties issue.
I just unpacked new iPod and I found new EULA: "Unpacking your computer from org box is a voilation of the following: {list of 123 bullets, incl. 12 crimes i 59 from anti-terrorism act}. Gov't has been notified already (as by buying you have intended to): {list of 123 bullets, incl. 12 crimes i 59 from anti-terrorism act}.". BTW: EULA was inside the box.
Look, if you already don't smoke indoors, you're half-way there. Why not give it up entirely - for YOU. You're the one who will save the money, not have to go outside in the middle of winter at 3 am to satisfy a craving that you really wish you could sleep through, not have your clothing smell, be able to taste your food better, etc.
And there's the unwanted advice he was on about. Perhaps you'd like some lifestyle tips off me as my way of saying thankyou for exposing me to some persuasive arguments that I'd never ever heard before?
However, the very expensive treatment a smoker receives in hospital, the effect it has on second hand smokers (possibly also receiving treatment) and the loss of productivity of smokers negates easily any cost savings by moving over to the other side.
s/smoker/obese/ and your comment works just as well...
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Oh, the poor smokers. They only want to be left alone and for the rest of the world to completely ignore that they are filling the air around them with poisonous gas. This is a crusade, I tell you! Everyone has the right to poison his environment as he sees hit, and the right that his environment totally ignores that! The oppression must end! Free poison for everyone!
I applaud Apple for standing up for their employees. I don't know what kind of internal lobbying it took, and for how long, but it is a great step forward for smokers to get some feedback on what they do to the world around them. As adults, you should take the consequences of your actions, and take them like a man instead of like a crybaby.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I forgot how that dialectic trick is called, but you did notice that you jumped from one case to a general conclusion there, didn't you?
Maybe he does not hurt anybody but himself, but the vast majority of smokers do. They care nothing for people around them and expect "tolerance" from everyone who they poison.
And that is why some of us are obsessed with controlling their actions. They hurt us. All we want for them is to stop. I would instantly sign an agreement saying that I may never again say a bad word about smokers if in return all smokers promise to never smoke where they do not have explicit permission from everyone who will get a part of their smoke.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
As for the health concerns, well I smoke anyways, but I do it outside. I'd still wear gloves, just like I almost always did.
Do you also re-apply your lipstick after a cig?
The two might not be as unrelated as you think
Solely counting cancer deaths of smokers is a bit of a short-sighted evaluation of it's effect on public health.
It was also conclusively proven that having fat friends or family increases the chances of you becoming fat, regardless of your physical distance from those people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25iht-fat.4.6830240.html
I don't know a single person who'd buy a mac, who doesn't smoke a shit ton of weed.
I spent many years puffing away in front of my computers, and I have to admit I didn't always blow the smoke away from the equipment. My wife killed my netware server by cooking chickens in the oven and the chicken fat smoke killed the fan in my machine and it overheated... There is something to be said about blowing smoke into sensitive electronic gear, especially floppy drives and hard disk bearings. Just my two cents...
The Consumerist article cites exactly two instances in which an Apple Store claimed that the warranty was voided by second-hand smoke: in April 2008 and "a few months later" (no date given). It doesn't exactly seem to be a major or ongoing problem with Apple's policies on repairs.
Your statement about the use of medial resources comes across as both glib and selfish.
If the tax paid by smokers went into a fund that could only be used to treat smokers, and the only source of publicly funded medical care for smokers was that fund, then you would have a point.
"Someone in the car in FRONT of you is smoking and you are annoyed? Seriously? Get a life, ..."
Nothing pisses me off more than some assfuck in front of me who decides to throw their LIT cigarette remains out the window. Very intelligent when driving in a 1-ton potential bomb with a bunch of others trailing behind them.
Not to mention, most smokers in general are inconsiderate assholes (tossing lit butts out the window is a good example of this) seemingly oblivious to the fact that their habit not only stinks, but is annoying to people who have allergies and asthma.
Which nanny-state arguments where those? That you shouldn't be allowed to hurt other people? That you shouldn't be allowed to needlessly tie up life-saving resources that others need?
Mind your own business. Is your life so miserable that you have to impose yourself upon someone else's?
I guess buy this point you had worked yourself into such a tizzy that you completely forgot what my argument was and were just yelling at the people in your head, yes?
Wow this is scary. All you people and your legalities make me laugh. Apple is the computer epitome of the liberal agenda. If it was up to Obama, all government workers would be forced to use MACs. Apple is a communist company. Iv never appreciated any of there business practices. This is exactly the type of Liberal direction our country is headed. Wake up you fraging Comeees, there is no such thing as a perfect world. You will never be able to create one with out making slaves out of us. And I have in my possession what it takes to prevent you from enslaving me. There is a war coming in this country. Guaranteed.
Most of those devices don't have fans designed to move large amounts of air through them.
Look, if somebody has made their computer totally nasty by using it as an ashtray,
1. That should void the warranty because customer gross negligence damaged it... you don't blow particulate matter into a computer!
2. If the computer has fine soot all about it, don't touch it.
I suspect that the computers were saturated with cigarette smoke, and There should be a way to charge the customer for rediculous clean up... 40 dollars an hour plus materials for Personal protective equipment.
Some goggles and a mask and a special cardboard box with venting -- vacuum attached...
I do feel sorry for the people who contaminated their computers...
1. They are such dumb asses
2. They probably are about to loose a lot of data, and should have an option to pay to have the damn thing cleaned.
Apple should make a note in their legalese... unless they already have something that covers it...
certain Exposure to particulate matter may void your warrenty, and or have a break-even cost to clean price associated with it.
Please use [ informative / summarizing ] SUBJECT LINES
Flame me here
I am so glad I never started smoking and encourage others to quit, but there is nothing right about this. Smacks of yet another corporation doing anything it can to NOT honor their commitments. That is more disgusting than any smoker could ever be.
And I know how bad smoking can be, once looked at a house for sale, with the three people living there, all three smoking as we were going through the house, probably in a lame attempt to hide the fact that their house reeked of smoke. Very unusual for people to be in the home when a Realtor is showing their home to prospective buyers. And one of the two of us had asthma, so we were sensitive to potential breathing issues in homes. The upper third of the walls, in all rooms of the home, were a burnt brown-orange color that we guessed was from nicotine. Needless to say we were in and out of that home real fast. Even if we could somehow strip and clean the walls, we were not convinced that we could successfully clean the duct work from that much nicotine buildup, ugh. Obviously this example is on the less than 1% extreme side for smoking, trust me it was disgusting. As awful as that was, Apple's stance on not honoring their warranty is more reprehensible to me.
Even with that negative experience and being a non smoker, I still can not see how any corporation can welch on their obligations (warranty) based on smoking alone.
OSHA violations my behind. They could at least remove the PC from the offending environment and work on it in a cleaner place.
I am sick and tired for corporations enriching themselves at the expense of consumers. If this article is true, something tells me it is, Apple is on the same list with Health Care Companies, Telcos, especially Cellular companies, Insurance Companies, Financial Companies, Hospitals, Banks, Credit Companies (all types), Oil Companies, Cable Companies, add-your-favorite customer-no-service-company here.
To protect yourself from a corporation, use RipOffReports.com and check them out. Unlike the Better Business Bureau were a company can be a sponser and have negative reports removed, with RipOffReports, the company can (and should) respond, but the complaints, even after satisfactorily being resolved are NEVER removed.
I once checked out the top 10 banks in the country...all of them had complaints in the multiple thousands, not just a few. The complaints from customers of greater than 3 years, 5 years and 7 years are particularly telling.
Same with the Wireless ~ Cellular companies. There was NOT a single good player in the group, all of them have hundreds, if not thousands of customer-no-service-complaints! If they cared about you and me, they would attempt to make it right. Since they do not it is obvious that they believe that they do not have too.
All the industries mentioned above ASSUME (for me they assume wrongly) that as consumers we have NO CHOICE and we will just switch from one bad company to another.
If you only have two choices, you have no choice.
You always have choices and if you can not find at least three options, you are not looking hard enough or from enough different persectives. As for RipOffReports.com, I expect companies to have a few complaints, its how they respond to those complaints that matter to me. What excuse is acceptable, not to even respond, to not even attempt to make it right with the customer, well there is NO EXCUSE on the company's part for that neglect of customer service. Obviously they are counting on all of us being SHEEP and not caring what they do to our neighbors. Hold them accountable, your children and your friends children will thank you one day!
There is only ONE solution, all of us, to a person, must stop doing bu
Give in to the urge. You're fscked anyway, more or less.
http://www.frozencpu.com/cig-01.html
means turning in Jews in Nazi Germany. Playing by the rules means turning in dissenters in Soviet Russia. Playing by the rules is unrelated to justice.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
you just feel stupid because your "argument" got torn, shredded and crushed into a fine powder. better luck next time, little boy.
I have a horrible sense of smell as my nose is usually blocked from hayfever and other allergies (I know this because other people often notice odours that I simply can't) but I can still smell a smoker by being within 2 meters of them. My mother was even more sensitive to it, she could tell if i'd been near a smoker in town, which is impressive considering I would just be walking past them - while waiting at bus stops i'd always move upwind of any smokers as I couldn't stand the smell and irritation of the smoke.
No. There should be higher taxes on whoever causes the accident, which is usually the car because a lot of drivers don't know what they're doing and don't properly check their blind spots for motorcycles. Of course if it's the motorcyclists fault, they're fair game, but generally if it's their fault and they're being an idiot, they wind up dead.
Really, more people should be riding motorcycles, if they drive sensibly it would do a hell of a lot more for the environment and congestion on our roads which are mostly taken up by sedans with single occupants.
And you're blatantly wrong about the cost to the community of motorcycle accidents, you're underestimating their contribution.
Driving a car is not a right, either catch public transportation or live within walking distance of your work.
Not everyone in the world is responsible/coordinated/skilled enough to drive a car. And when I say responsible I'm including people who are certainly not hoons but don't check their mirrors, don't pay attention, don't know the road rules or try to do other things (call, text, eat, drink, other things which distract them) while driving.
Get a shop vac then. Cats and woodworkers also have gummy computers. BOY! some pussy ass techs at apple!
You havent fixed computers if you havent fixed dirty computers!!
-
You can't just decide to not service something your company warranted because they smoke. Just about every piece of electronics including appliances, stereos, TVs, cable boxes etc etc etc have fans in them and would have the exact same result. I am not a smoker, but does that mean smokers should be automatically void from every warranty for everything in their house??? Come on people, you're going a little far here...
If these Apple nerd workers are so concerned about it affecting their health maybe they should look elsewhere first, like the greesy burger they had for lunch and the gallons of Mt Dew they down in a day.
I have worked on many gross PCs and laptops, and Ill take a smoker's system any day over someone who has a disgustingly dirty house and in return a disgusting computer... Or how about when you find some roach or other bug carcasses inside?
Ridiculous, I'd like to see an environmental toxic screening at the Chinese production facilities for Apple's computers. Aren't there likely to be many "toxic" substances inherent in these devices? Making a political statement through your company's warranty policy seems a little hypocritical and just...silly.
I agree being a tech myself, who has to work on a smokers computer can be disgusting to say the least. I feel like vomiting inside the case and leaving it there, to prove a point.
However, I do not agree with Apple's tactics, I would on Apple's part say they fall under a category where there must be a tech that smokes himself, and feels nothing wrong with working on a computer that has been in a smoke filled house.
This would be the less abrasive attitude, however Apple seem very snobby these days.
I would send them to a tech who smokes, and in the mean time, I would also make sure to change the warranty agreement, because this one they just might lose big on.
I hate smokers but they are humans like us (non smokers) and still deserve the guarantee they have when they bought the machine.
The majority of motorcycle crashes are caused by ... or idiots in cars.
Obviously made up statistic. Are you forgetting all those motorcycle "lane-splitters"? Also, the percentage of motorcyclers I see speeding far exceeds the percentage of car drivers I see speeding (especially excessive speeding, i.e., more that 20 MPH over the limit).
If you are out in public you assume the risk of being outside where your neat liittle world ends...
As does yours. How about I rub up against you while wearing a suit covered with sharp spikes?
Someone in the car in FRONT of you is smoking and you are annoyed? Seriously? Get a life,
The REALLY annoying part is how they flick butts out the window - heaven forbid they dirty their car ashtrays the way they dirty their lungs. Worse are the ones who empty their ashtrays at a convenient curb. Nasty shit.
I'd never thought of the idea that the smoke, tar and other byproducts of a smoking habit could gum up the inner workings of the PC (heatsink and such). What's next? Cat owners? I know I pop mine open at least once a month to clean out cat hair stuck in the fans, sink and so forth.....
Because my tax dollars may end up paying for his hospital bills when he's dying of cancer and the insurance companies won't cover him anymore?
Some people need to develop an imagination before using the words "He's not hurting anybody but himself." I mean really, who thinks that this person has no family and no houseguests who will be exposed to second-hand smoke? What if I'm one of them? Of course this applies to any smoker, not just XedLightParticle.
Amazing how some people don't want me to defend my own interests so that they can keep doing whatever they want.
I understand that those who are involved in regular vigorous activity are more at risk to physical injury, which can cause them to take more sick leave in order to recover. I hereby recommend that all exercise be banned.
Love sees no species.
There are several core issues in regards to smoking that make it different in key respects from doing anything harmful to yourself.
1) I am all in favor of allowing things that damage oneself to be legal. That's the essence of the nanny-state discussion. So I'm with people who are against the idea of a nanny-state. BUT smoking is harmful to others. Go ahead and damage yourself, but when you damage others who have not given consent, that is crossing a line.
2) Smoking by its nature releases smoke into the air and is therefore the business of everyone that encounters that smoke. This smoke is a) addictive, b) nasty-smelling, c) a mind-altering substance, and d) causes cancer. To those who smoke, would be fine if a stranger a) put an addictive substance in your food without your consent, b) farted such a nasty fart near you that it stuck in your clothes for days, c) slipped mild mind-altering drugs into your food/drink, or d) released carcinogenic gases into your environment?
3) On mind-altering substances, I'm very much of the philosophy that people should be allowed to use them. But nobody should be allowed to MAKE me use them. Nicotine affects brain chemistry. While it may be a fix for you, it makes me feel ill and causes terrible head pain.
It's a no-brainer. The violent reaction from smokers to the thought of banning smoking from public places and even outside is no doubt related to the thought of being unable to get a fix with one of the most addictive chemicals known to man. Remove that, and you have a case where smoking causes obvious infringements to the people around you, each of which clearly should not be allowed.
If all smokers switched to the patch, the problem would be entirely solved in my mind. Do what you want, but keep it to yourself.
Go Apple! This is good!
_____ There seems no plan because it is all plan. -- C.S. Lewis
Back in the '80s, my high school had to send in computers repeatedly to their service unit. They'd send Apple IIe computers in, they'd be fixed, and arrive back at the school damaged again.
They figured it out one day when the truck arrived at the school, the driver opened the back, and billows of smoke rolled out the back of the truck. This in the winter months when the smoking driver kept the cab windows closed.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
I had been avoiding running a Hackintosh out of some latent guilt and a feeling that the Apple hardware really was better anyway. But if it now has no warranty (yes, I'm a smoker, yes it's a horrible disgusting habit, yes, I should quit) then I feel my guilt slowly seeping away. Sorry, but this is ridiculous PC bull.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
There's a failing video card in a imac sitting right here
Graphics failed in the MacBook Pro I'm typing this on. When it did I headed down to an Apple store and made an appointment with the Genius Bar the same day. The tech ran some tests and said the graphics needed to be replaced. He then went into the back and came back a few minutes later. He said they were short on the part so he'd have to order it, and when I asked he said it's be in in a couple of days. He then said I could take the MBP home, after rebooting it was working again, and they'd call when the part came in. Because of a repair backlog, there are 4 Apple stores in my area but one closed for remodeling, it took a week to get it back. I later found out that if you pay for Apple Pro Care, which costs $100 a year, you're put at the head of any line.
That failure was the first of two hardware failures this MBP had, and it failed more than 16 months after I got it. The second failure was the DVD drive, after 2 years. I bought two other Macs used. One was a Mac SE 30 I bought in 1992. They were made in 1988-89 and mine lasted until 2000. A few months after it died I bought a PowerMac 7300/200, which were made in 1997. It died in 2006.
I've also bought PCs new, one with Win 95, one dual booted NT4 and Redhat Linux, another had ME, and one came with Linux preinstalled. Except for the NT4 Workstation/Linux PC they had had to have both the hard disk drive and the motherboard replaced before they were one year old. The Win 95 PC was a Gateway, the WinME an HP, the workstation was from Microway, and the Linux PC was a store brand.
Whereas every Mac I had lasted more than a year before I had trouble with it of 4 new PCs I bought only one did not have trouble during it's first year, the Microway PC. Unfortunately its CPU is a DEC Alpha and I was unable to install much software, DEC's FX!32 software emulator wasn't as good as DEC billed it as, on it so I haven't used it much.
I guess I'll send it in at the last day of warranty :\
Grit your teeth and take it into a store. Then if they say they need to order the parts to fix it take it home and have them call you when they come in. You might be without it a few days but at least you'll get it repaired.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I thought an apple a day was only meant to keep doctors away..... Not smokers and cars?!
Well I am a heavy smoker for probably 15 years and I never had brown snot come out of my nose :)
On the other hand I am in the last western country that still has enough places for smokers.
Just recently a special smoking Cafe opened across the station I work. Just for smokers, nobody else. Gotta love it here.
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919
Have you ever worked on one of said machines? I have coworkers that get sick from just touching the nicotine-covered parts. It's disgusting to handle tar-covered components, and the smell is overwhelming sometimes. Plus, the warranty is voided by the damage caused by smoke in some cases. It is as good for things like fans and optical drives as it is for your lungs. Sometimes the machines are so gummy that it's basically a loss unless each piece is throughly scrubbed clean with solvent. I'm not exaggerating.
Or cell phones, for that matter. I have opened my share of the devices and if not because I saw the owner smoking I couldn't tell one cell from another.