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Steve Jobs Lashes Out At Android
Ponca City writes "Steve Jobs doesn't usually make a guest appearance on Apple's post-earnings conference calls with analysts, but this time he made an exception, attacking Google for marketing its operating system as 'open' versus Apple's 'closed' iOS. 'Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.' Jobs stated that the real debate is between 'fragmented versus integrated' and which is better for the consumer. 'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.' Jobs also criticized the Android Marketplace, pointing out that there are at least three other app stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for users and work for developers. 'This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,' Jobs said. 'Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone.'"
I hear it's so much better when someone else adjusts all the straps for you.
the definition of open: "mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make"
The best part is Andy Rubin started as an engineer at Apple in 1989.
My work here is dung.
Didn't Dodsworth from Tweetdeck say that he had only two guys on the Android port, and fragmentation wasn't really an issue?
Jailbreak your iPhone and install what you want.
Re-Rom your Android and install what you want.
What's the difference?
Not everyone wants what you like, some of us can make our own minds up based on our needs and preferences. Ever heard of slide out keyboards?
Agree with him or not, Jobs rattles off qualitative differences between the Android and iPhone platforms. Where, exactly, is the "lashing out"? He's criticizing, not throwing chairs here.
For the most part he is wrong. However, multiple markets for android will make things messy. Unfortunately, Google needs to clean up the existing market a lot. Google has a good thing going for it, I just hope they don't let the vendors steamroll them into making android a wildlife preserve. I had a friend come to me last week with their brand new fascinate and beg me to remove Bing from it. Took me about an hour and lots of messy hacks, but it was done and google was added.
iStuff just works until you want to do something Steve hasn't pre-approved. At which point it just doesn't work.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
It's like asking what Steve Ballmer thinks of the iPhone.
Dumbfucks.
"When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants."
Integrated vs fragmented. He's just trying to redefine the terms in his favor.
Open > Closed
vs
Integrated > Fragmented
Well done Steve.
So, let me get this straight, the situation is not that Android lets you customize your phone experience, and the iPhone does not, the situation is that we need people to stop buying Android phones and buy more of ours!
Jobs likes to make his profits through tight control over software applications. Other people go other directions.
Apple's eternal struggle for control (and its markup) turn me off.
Andy Rubin's response to Jobs (via twitter): the definition of open: "mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make"
Honestly, most of the "problems" with Android I actually consider to be strengths. Now the "fragmented" argument, yes, I can see where that can hurt in the long run, but then again, PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?
In Mother Russia we only need one phone and one app store and one line to bread store. Too much stuff confuse us. Yeah right Steve.
I refuse to use Android or iOS.
I didn't think either was an option on your Bakelite rotary dial phone.
Trolling is a art,
Three cheers for conformity! "I Want To Be A Clone" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksP2jYr7mS8
Calm down Apple fans - I own a Mac too
(all the way back to the Quadra days).
It's chust a choke!
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
What's the difference?
I can see the source code for Android
Which (incidentally) is why it's open, and apple's offering isn't.
Apparently Jobs is trying to redefine "Open"
Wow, what an overheated headline. Jobs did not "lash out". He gave very reasoned response and delineated the significant differences in the philosophy and design of the 2 platforms. It wasnt an angry rant by any means.
This is not about android as such. Look at windows desktop machines. By an HP or fujitsu or whatever and you are going to see a pretty fragmented user experience due to junkware that obscures the regular user interface. Special toolbars everywhere, docks and quick launch crap etc.
It's simply single vendor vs multiple vendors.
Tired all of those choices that TWO things can offer? Confused by those floaty things that enter your vision and then move away when you try to focus on them? Scared by things that don't outright hug you?
Then you should buy Apple!
Apple... for when thinking takes too much thought.
Isn't this the same "Cathedral vs. the Bazaar" argument?
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
iOS does things one way, Android does things another way. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Some like Coca-cola. Some like Pepsi. Just pick the one you want.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Saying the iPhone "just works" is a bit disingenius due to the... lack of actual work applications.
Granted, the same can be said for Android. But consider: "working" on Windows Mobile 6.5 is somewhat more possible than on either Android or iPhone due to good PIM and Office integration, as well as the many other tools which can interface with, and utilize, said functionality. FOr being as fragmented and crusty as WinMo is, it's still more capable than either.
If 'just working' for you is having a unified UI across multiple 'personal' devices slated for different roles so you can check Facebook statuses and your gmail/iCal/whatever and play games, sure. the iPhone 'just works' by those requirements. Just don't expect anything 'complex' (such as anything a common PDA was capable of as recent as uh almost 10 years ago).
Now, the Palm Pre... there's a phone that "just works".
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I didn't hear the audio of this but the text seems that Jobs is stating his opinion and his reasons behind it. Sure the man is opinionated, and he's known for being a jerk. Many here on slashdot won't agree with him but I won't consider this lashing out. Throwing a chair at a soon-to-be former employee is lashing out.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I want a phone that will let me install whatever app I choose to install regardless of who made it or what store sold it. For me, Android and BlackBerry work best. For the not-so-techy or those who don't care if they're in a walled garden, an iOS device will suit them just fine.
Regards,
Me
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
The answer is, that none of the two are superior to free operating systems like BSD, GNU/ or for e.g. FreeDOS. In my opinion Apple is no better than Microsoft -- even worse. They kicked out all of the devs from the Quarz project, closed their OS over years and broke the underlying BSD. So if Jobs says users will benefit from "more integrated" stuff one should state the question at which costs that happens. I don't trust Google either and will *never ever* use their OS (not even for less critical operations). I have to mention though that I would choose the latter of those two in case they were the only OS in the world. I would do that simply to be able to have a choice regarding a proprietary user interface! :-)
Boeing had an A, B or C variant for many of their aircraft. Airbus let customers choose all sorts of short-run customizations. Guess which company afterward spent a mountain of treasure on maintenance? Whole armies of technical writers were employed by Airbus just to manage the documentation sets at a tremendous after sale hit to profitability.
Headline should have read "Manufacturer Claims Own Product Better Than Competitor". That's all just marketing. In the end, it's up to the consumer to decide what suits them better. For me, it is the platform that does what I tell it to, rather than the platform that tells me what I can or cannot do; no amount of so-called "integration" is going to sway me to the other side.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
Windows?
This video is hilarious and sums up Apple iPhone users perfectly
http://www.youtube.com/user/xtranormal#p/a/f/0/FL7yD-0pqZg
Yeah, right. iOS is about as fragmented as Android is. And the people I've talked to with iPhones older than version 4 are having real troubled with the latest version of iOS on their iPhone 3* phones - majorly slow is what I've heard.
While there is _some_ truth to Android not being as open as Google would lay claim to, it's certainly more open than iOS is, and when it comes t getting an app out, Android is the platform benchmark for letting anyone release an app. Apple's a joke in this area. I don't know how app distribution works on Blackberry/Windows Phone platforms, though.
You can not only release your own app on your own website, you can actually open your own Android app MARKETPLACE. Sorry, but that's a level of openness Apple can't and won't compete with.
What Jobs was saying is exactly why, excluding fanboys on both sides, Android tends to be more popular with really geeky folks while the iPhone tends to be more popular with people that want their experience ready to go out of the box.
Living With a Nerd
has arguably the most arbitrary and capricious process for vetting the applications produced for its platform of any platform provider around?
Seriously, my God man, it takes balls so big you need to be checked for testicular cancer to have Apple's track record in dealing with iPhone developers to get on Google's case here.
Sure, maybe the Android platform will end up truly and badly fragmented, but it is not there yet. Furthermore, at least there is always the option of people creating their custom images and processes for helping end users get around vendor crap.
Compensating for something. He is just pissed that people have freedom on the android, which means porn can exist, and so can non-apple-approved bullshit. Common, yes the fragmentation is a problem with the android market, but at least there is freedom there too.
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
Jobs totally dodged the open/closed issue. But his attempt to reframe the difference as fragmented/integrated is not just a good PR move for them, but a telling point. Apple's strength has always been as a system integrator, which brings substantial value to the ordinary user.
A lot more openness from them still would be nice, though. :-)
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
I'm surprised fragmentation is his choice of argument against Android. There are several things iOS does better than Android, but it's getting harder and harder to develop for iOS because of fragmentation. Hell, it used to be called iPhone OS, not iOS, but now you have to make sure your code works on previous generation iPhones, the 4's retina display, the iPad, and the iPod Touch. Resolution differences, support for multitasking, and camera differences are all getting more difficult to manage!
'Changing the subject'.
"Folks have been saying your platform seems a bit proprietary and closed."
"Hey, how about them White Sox?"
"Your platform might be proprietary and closed."
"Yeah, well so is your mother!"
"Your platform is proprietary and closed."
"Oh yeah? Well, you just must not like having a good experience with your phone."
The problem is that all the more reasonable responses might paint them into a corner where they have to offer an option for a sandbox for a more open use of their platform - and their strategy precludes that as an option. So, like with elections where offering a valid option to voters is too risky (to your various monied interests), insulting the other option becomes the rule of the day.
Ryan Fenton
You and me both. The smartphone market sucks across the board. It's not just the carriers, it's the hardware manufactures as well.
After all, the iPhone is simply one part of the overall fragmented smartphone market. People are confused, choosing not just between one Android phone and another vs choosing a consistent iPhone separate market, they also have to bother with confusion in choosing Android, iPhone, Blackberry, Windows 6, or Windows 7, etc. iPhone provides consistency on Apple devices, but that's a very particular corner of the smartphone market, and is only consistent with itself in the same way that all Droid X phones are consistent with other Droid X phones. It's all semantics, it's marketing, and it's B.S.
It's called "changing the conversation". Steve Jobs is rightly pointing out the problems that Android is facing, that Apple is not. And he's detailing them well, and discussing Apple's real advantages in this area - their clear focus on this aspect of the business will speak well to the business people on the call.
That said, he's "changing the conversation" - which is another way of saying "change the subject" - he's avoiding the real issues, and the true accusations of Android fans (and Google) - that Android is more open then Apple.
Overall, the only thing to really note here is whether or not Steve manages to change the conversation - the same way that anti-iPhone users managed to change the conversation about the launch of the new iPhone to the reception problems - and how Steve failed to change the conversation by trying to shift it into a "general problem that everyone has". Marketing 101, ya'all.
Every Apple handset locks you out of using the phone the way you want to just the same. Every handset fails just the same if you touch it in the right place. Every handset requires you to buy apps from the same store.
Thank you Mr Jobs, now take your locked down phone, your cloud and your rant and fuck off. Don't let your iPhone hit yer ass on the way out.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I'd have no problem with the iPhone or the App store if you weren't such a PRICK, oh yeah and let me choose my own F*CKING phone company.
Hope is the currency of fools
app store isnt the only app place for apple. What about Openappmarkt, Cydia? Apple, don't point fingers at others to cover your own.
Dear acoustix,
Then perhaps you should buy an Android phone or BlackBerry.
Regards,
Steve Jobs
I really feel bad for Steve. Instead of Steve defining how his product is the best and all of the competition is crap. He has to live life in a world where Google has managed to define Android as open and iOS as closed.
He does not like that. Most companies have to deal with the fact they don't always control all the spin and how the public perceives the company and their product. After creating so much of it on his own, it is nice to see Steve experience some reality created by someone else.
I have had an Android phone for only a few months now. In that time, I have learned much about it especially about how to un-soft-brick it. But also, I have noted compatibility problems between 1.5 android and 1.6+ android as there are numerous apps that are either distributed twice to support both groups of versions or only supports 1.6 and above. I have also noticed that some apps only work with particular models of phones. These are some real problems.
But given the choice between Android and iPhone, I still have to favor Android.
iPhone is locked and restricted in ways that simply make me uncomfortable. The non-removable battery still bugs me. I'm not "every user" though and so my opinion on the matter is pretty much worthless as a measure of what "the people" like.
"The people" don't see a lot of difference between iPhone and Android. "The people" see a phone with a touch screen and snazzy graphics and are happy with that experience. I see people on the bus and on trains poking, touching, sliding and pinching on both iPhone and Android phones with equal joy.
Jobs is probably most bugged by the fact that Android phones look enough like iPhone that people are rather confused. Calling Apple "closed" is pretty accurate. They are closed and limited and restricted.
As Apple is the only maker of iPhone compatible devices, of course there's no fragmentation. And when a market is OPEN to compete, there will be lots of differentiation out there. So more than the phones themselves, but the iPhone market is also very closed, limited and restricted. The Android market is open by comparison. But yeah... there is more "trouble" associated with Android wares. There is certainly more crapware installed. It's all part of the give and take of it all. I say it's worth the trouble to be open.
Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.
I really do like my Apple products, but not for the reasons Jobs pushes; more like in spite of his ideas. I'd love another store, particularly one where Jobs Judeo-Christian mores aren't pushed upon me; or, conversely, if Apple's store stopped insisting that apps have to work they way they think they should, or that apps "can't duplicate functionality." I'm hugely fond my my iPad, but the idea that it would be less useful to me if there were more than one app store available to me... that's just wrong.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Consumer walks into a shoe store and sees 136 types of shoes:
"No! No! I'm so confused! I'm left to figure it out. Why doesn't every shoe look the same? I want my shoes to just work, and I believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. I also think shoe designers can be more innovative if they can target a singular shoe type rather than a hundred variants. Just look the Android Shoe Marketplace, where there are at least three other shoe stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for consumers and more work for shoe designers!"
Let's not even get into Android vs. iPhone sales trends.
For now, iOS lets me do what I need to do without getting in the way or making me find the right libraries or compile anything.
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have never had to reinstall an app other than during an update for that app. When my DROID updated Android, everything came back up. I have developed Android applications, the SDK is a just a zip that works in Linux, Windows even Mac. And you just unzip it and use the emulator and SDK that comes with it. Awhile ago, I tried to code iPhone apps but given that I don't have a Mac -- no luck!
When I spend time compiling software for the iOS, I want it to do something new and perhaps make some money while doing it.
Wow. Then perhaps you'd like to discuss the fees you had to pay in order to develop something for the iPhone? Are you enrolled in the iOS developer program? I put together the machine I develop on and it was quite inexpensive. And if I wanted to distribute my apps on Android Market I'm not aware of any fee or approval BS that comes with Apple's market. Do some reading:
To run an application on the iPhone, the application needs to be signed. This signed certificate is only granted by Apple after the developer has first developed the software through either the US$99/year Standard package or the US$299/year Enterprise package with the iPhone SDK.
Good luck "making a bit of money" when you're already negative from the get go!
... I read your blog so I know you're not stupid.
Really, your comment reads like something written by someone who is confusing the customer with the developer and has never tried coding an Android app. You're correct that git and make don't mean anything to a customer but it does if you consider that developers have to embrace the platform before the customer has an apps to use!
Short run: make your money on iPhone. Long run: Android wins out. Trust me on this one.
I can't tell if you're confused or trolling
My work here is dung.
I refuse to use Android or iOS.
I didn't think either was an option on your Bakelite rotary dial phone.
That's so typical. Just because you have an older phone, they don't support it.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Actually I have a high enough opinion of his judgment to now believe that Android is going to take over the world.
Honestly I daresay Android will become the legendary Linux Desktop, one day.
expandfairuse.org
Apple oficially ignored Android for some time. Recently they laughed of their fragmentation. Now Apple is attacking Google for its openness.
You know what comes last.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
The "closed" criticism of Apple isn't really about software... it's about the fact that they actually work hard on controlling HOW you use your device. You are forced to use iTunes, they actively work to prevent other software from working with their devices. You are forced to use Mac/Windows, they actively work to prevent other OSes from working with their devices. They don't want you to use the device as a normal storage drive, they actively write code to cause your device to format itself when used outside their parameters.
Fuck Apple.
Does Steve Jobs remember the PC revolution? It was about "fragmented vs. integrated" (read "open vs closed") then too. Compaq broke the code to the IBM bios, and made it possible for legions of PC manufacturers to clone the IBM architecture. It was a very "fragmented" market. It was also the "fragmented" market that won. Big time. It's the same story all over again, but this time we're talking about computers built into phones, rather than computers built into typewriters. Steve's only advantage is that he really truly does have an unparalleled sense of style. That approach didn't win him big market share in the $4000 PC market, but people might be willing to pay a small margin in the $500 phone market, so we'll have to wait and see. All it's going to take, though, is some other dashing design driven ego to put up a shiny alternative and Apple will have a real problem on it's hands. They do already, Steve's bluster notwithstanding.
"Having too many choices confuses the consumer"...so just buy our product.
Sorry /.
Steve Jobs made me laugh!
He just said: "Dont compare things the way you want. Compare the way I want. Isnt it simple? Our products are always the best."
Alright Jobs, so if your iPhone is so much better... than why doesn't every carrier have it? Let's be honest with ourselves, Apple chose AT&T which is really as far as the community is concerned, the worst wireless carrier in the history of wireless carriers. The iPhone would be a smash hit if every carrier had it, this includes T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint.
Also, you talk about your App Store being so great and available. What if I want an app that you denied? Oh yeah, I can't. With Android, I would be able to simply go to another marketplace to get it. Simple.
So before you start talking smack, look at yourself and see the flaws in your own setup and fix them first. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Why does Steve Jobs care how Google markets their phone OS? People who don't know the different between closed and open aren't going to care, and people who already do care probably weren't going to buy an iPhone anyway. It's really as simple as that.
he means extremely customizable.
HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. ... Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.
Really Steve? The HTC iPhone works the same as the Motorola iPhone? Idiot.
Developing on Apple's phones does not get your stuff to work on Nokia's phones any more than developing for HTC phones gets your stuff to run on Motorola's phones.
Many people had hoped that Android would make their programs run across platforms, but that has not yet materialized. That certainly does not make it worse than Apple products which will never run cross-platform.
I doubt Google's primary goal is a uniform cross-platform phone experience. Google's primary goal is to get handset manufacturers to use Google's software which will direct to Google's services.
"In Soviet Apple, iOS Integrates YOU!!!"
1st gen iphones/ipods are left out in the cold and denied ios4.
According to a developer I know Jobs is offering sweet rewards to those who make their apps ios4 only.
It's the most unethical crap I've ever heard of. I won't be buying an ipod or iphone EVER again.
My next device will be android if I ever bother again.
He is just right.
This site is populate by nerds. The vast majority here can and probably will change things in the phone.
But, the world isn't populated by nerds. The world is populated by peoply that just want their things to work, they don't want to spend hundreds of hours trying to make their phone run any abscure app.
They just want to take pictures, listen music, call, sms, play a game....
Steve isn't trying to controle what people do, he is just giving banana's to monkeys....
I'm tired of the constant bitching from people who will never buy an iPhone. There is plenty of competition in the marketplace.
For the record, I'm plenty geeky, I build my own PCs, My netbook runs Ubuntu, but I also don't care about the "openness" of my new iPhone. It does exactly what I need it to do, it runs the apps/games I want, and plays the media I have.
You want an Android? Knock yourself out. I hear it's a decent phone OS as well.
Wow, sounds similar to Nintendo's stance when Sony came out with the Playstation. Nintendo has a very tough hoop to jump through to get a game on their systems, while Sony has a pretty cheap license. Nintendo was first, and had a tight grip on the market until Sony's loose market PS came into town and dominated. The iPhone is like Nintendo in this sense; first of the new breed, and widely accepted. However, Android is quickly becoming a real threat to the market dominance that iPhone has.
SALES SPIN
iOS(iPad+iTouch+iPhone)>Android Phones
iPhone>Any single Android Phone
Android Phones>iPhone
DEVELOPMENT SPIN
Intergrated(sic) means easier development maybe
Fragmented means greater choice(Superior Hardware, cheaper hardware)
INTERFACE/APPS
Apple interface/Shops vs Google Marketplace interface/Apps + Phone Manufacturer/Phone Supplier interface tweaks + Apps/Content errm fight!!
You can pick your sides with this numbers game. Although consumers / phone manufactures / network providers get better value from the Android platform. Android is taking the smartphoneplatform by ever increasing numbers over the iPhone. As for the whole lets add iOS devices together nonsense judging by how quickly Android has taken over the phone market, I can only see the same thing happening with tablets / mp3 players / kettles etc. and Android still expanding in the Phone Market
To be fair the only thing interesting here apart from it coming from the spin coming the horses mouth is Windows Phone 7 wasn't mentioned an awful lot.
Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.
Vertical Integration is good for the moron masses.
Android does have its flaws. . . yes there is a varying amount of unremovable bloatware from phone to phone,yes you have an app store where all apps must be approved, yes there are all kinds of compatibility issues, yes there are update roll out problems. But the app store does approve a lot more stuff than Apple does and there's a lot more free stuff, AND having multiple companies using the OS creates competition which is a lot better for consumers than a monopoly.
So he's complaining that Google isn't focusing on the particular issue they want to?
This sounds about like Hyundai complaining that BMW isn't focusing on cost in their advertising.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
He's scared of Android.
He's scared of open platforms.
His choice of words "fragmented" and "Integrated" are cleverly chosen word associations that he hopes sway you.
Funny that he took the complete opposite stance on Flash. He claimed it was "Closed" and dead... and would not be allowed on the iPhone... which here he admits is closed itself... or in his clever wording "Integrated".
Jobs... You're a businessman.... but your not honest.
I'm pretty sure that my old Nokia Brick phone from a decade ago was just like everyone else's phone at the time. I suppose you could call that integrated as well, doesn't mean that I like it.
Fragmentation is monopolian/FUDanese for competition, choice. Because Android is seeing explosive growth and widespread adoption, plenty of choice, and so far no hard data showing a few problems, despite trolling from Jobs and his reality distortion blogosphere.
I wonder if Android Market was almost intentionally crappy, to allow alternative app stores. So far I've been quite impressed with the alternative offerings, and I'm damn thankful one company does not control the sole means of personalising my 'droid.
HTC's Sense and Motorola's MotoBlur are really superficial skins and have been mischaracterised has some kind of OS re-write. Although they are a bit more than just a custom home screen application (for example I use an app called ADW Launcher instead of default), the underpinnings of Android aren't really heavily modified.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Where one company controls all information and apps.
I find it funny that Apple-products somehow always end up in business-districts like Wall-Street, whilst all the people there really wants as low tax and full freedom. Obviously they have a secret lust for the opposite.
I think the real difference is "just work" vs "just work the way I want it to". There is certainly a market for "just work". There are enough people willing to conform their work habits to a device's paradigm to make a device manufacturer a very good living. Apple was successful at this, Microsoft less so, because Apple has an interface that's useful and intuitive and people enjoyed using the device. And Windows Mobile... well, that's a different article.
Jobs seems to have drawn the wrong conclusion from this -- that the primary success of the iphone is because every device works the same. The obvious argument to this is that I don't use every device, I only use the device I own, and it works the same every day. The real success of the iphone is that it provides a better experience. And it truly does. I'm surprised that Jobs appears to have forgotten this.
Android also provides a better experience, with the added wrinkle that you can choose the experience you want by choosing a different device and/or customizing the device you have. To people who want to bend a device to their workflow, instead of bending their workflow to a device, this has considerable appeal.
I think what Apple is missing out on is the customizable aspect of personal devices. And before you say it, this is not a nerd only thing. My 16 year old daughter reports that android is becoming more popular with her circle of friends partly because they *are* different (or can be made different) instead of everything having the exact same device with the exact same interface running the exact same apps. (Daughter turned down the iPhone for a Galaxy S and hasn't touched her iPod Touch since she got it.)
Jobs can continue to rant about conformity, fanbois and people who genuinely want a device that "just works" will continue to buy his devices, and he'll do really well. For the rest of us, there's Android.
But.... Listening to Jobs rave about everyone using exactly the same device, I can't help but flash back to that original Mac commercial in 1984. Walt Kelly was right.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Steve Jobs is the Grand Inquisitor. He is removing freedoms from man because they only make man miserable. He does this not because he is evil, but because he cares.
I think most people would agree that iOS is a more polished, reliable product than Android. The main problems with iOS, AFAICT, are:
-AppStore restrictions. It's fine to not accept apps that don't work, but I think the precedent set by rejecting the official Google Voice app is what's really bothering people. And lord knows we'll never see Flash, even when the devices become more than capable. I only hope that we'll get Google Maps Navigation one day, though that could be Google's withholding instead of Apple's
-AT&T. Seriously.
Basically, the restrictions that stifle what we can do with the device and OS for no sound technical reason.
I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.
Anyone who uses PlaysForSure as an example of an "Open" technology is spewing random bullshit with NOTHING to back it up... I'll get more information from fldksjc;jlssdljl than such random baseless claims.
PlaysForSure failed because it was a fundamentally closed technology, designed with the express purpose of closing down the devices it was installed on. Being closed doesn't work unless you have major market share (which Apple does in the music realm.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
LOL, nice. I need mod points to hook you up
The world is how you make it
If Steve Jobs thinks every Iphone is the same then he needs to get his head on straight. The 3g does not have multitasking which makes the experience from someone using a 3g compared to a 3gs or 4 totally different. And dont forget there are other app stores for the iPhone as well. So if this post is correct, Jobs is not!
Jobs never does stuff like this. He is very worried. He must have gotten a peak the latest Android growth figures. It's not slowing or even staying the same, it's exploding at a rate Apple can't match on several fronts. Manufacturing alone has to be the biggest worry. They just can't match the output of HTC, Samsung, and Motorola who are all spitting them out as fast as they can. That doesn't even scratch the surface. With all these smartphones coming out, you are going to be able to buy them for next to nothing or even get them free. Apple doesn't want any part of that, but it's coming.
I wonder is google planning a remake of the "1984" commercial?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4431023771693015128
Does anyone think Jobs and Gates have a megalomaniac character flaw.
This is too damn funny.
I recommend Apple does like other companies... spend money on politics until the laws are written that redress this gross inequity. Jobs should contact Karl Rove to get elected to the republican puppet-POTUS office.
Thanks for the endless chuckles Stevie.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Can't install it on most of the actual hardware out there because they won't run your unsigned OS image.
You can shut the fuck up now, dimwit.
Whats funny about all this is that Jobs is talking about integrated system and works the same on every iphone... Of course it works the same, there is only one! One model at the time ...
Apple = Communism
Others = Make your own choice!
I'll stick with the winmo, android, bberry!! At least I can choose what is best for me !
"Today, we celebrate the fourth glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created for the first time in all telecommunication history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each developer may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of iThoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or Android army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!"
The only thing that's open about Apple is Steve Jobs's mouth...to be perfectly honest, I'd prefer "closed" in this particular case :)
Because as Rumsfeld so sagely noted, "democracy is messy". Lets hope Jobs never runs for office and tries to set up iGovernment.
Loose lips lose spit.
I'm sure I've missed a few. He does make headlines, and that's what the fanboys love.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
This is an odd argument. Isn't Mac OSX based on some *NIX, and don't they tout the "openness" of it? Wasn't this a huge argument against windows, back when windows had a death grip on the desktop market? Funny how Apple had such a big problem with Microsoft when they "integrated" IE/Media Player/etc into their OS, yet they just do the same thing themselves.
What the hell is going on here. Is Steve Jobs just saying anything to sell more devices? I'm so confused.
...screams "closed"
I'll try anything once. Twice if it tastes good
Yes, a different UI must really be hard. The only people I find that complain about this are the same ones who need to write down a step by step list of actions to perform a task (those would be people who do not like to think, even a bit). My god, whatever will clicking or touching an icon do, or scrolling the screen with my finger in the direction of the scroll bar? While there are differences between UIs, the common concepts behind them are all the same. But shit, it takes effort to learn new things. It's as hard as it is for a monkey to peal a banana. As far as the iPhone being the more innovative platform, I'd have to disagree. Because you see, you can't really be innovative with the iPhone. Remap the wrong keys and your app is history, regardless of how useful it might be. God forbid should we want to have something useful like a P2P app, or something that does not fit into Jobs moral guidelines. What is it that you can do with an iPhone or with iOS that you can't do with an Android, aside from being a douche. Google is right about calling iPhone closed. Because it IS CLOSED. Jobs would like to bend the truth here. Does Apple give me the iOS sources, unfettered transfer of files and apps, control over the device I bought, free use wherever and however I like? NO! Hence, it's closed. Case closed, my dear Watson.
All the sexy babes want me... to fix their PC.
"A platform is not really "open" if it's only open in a way that 1%ers (1% most technical users) can do anything with it that benefits from openness."
Simply not true. On an open platform, I can get my applications from anywhere and put it on my phone. If wal-mart charges less, I'll buy it there. If you want to make an application that doesn't meet Google's approval and charge me $300, that's okay. If Amazon wants to set up its own app store, then I have more choices.
Everybody wins in that scenario. There is no downside. Well, unless you're the middleman getting 30%. I can understand why you wouldn't like that. You'd make shit up to show how much better your approach is. But the bottom line, you're getting 30% of the total, for adding significantly less value.
Wow Steve. It sure is refreshing to get a truly unbiased opinion from someone like you who is not attached to either industry.
This interview is golden and I will definitely remember everything that was discussed when making my next smartphone purchase.
AKA: why do we repeat this PR crap? Just so we can say: he's right... or... no, he's wrong? News flash: it's neither... he is saying whatever will maximize sales (marketing fluff). I doubt he even believes half the stuff he says... why should his personal opinions come into play? He is paid (stock price) to repeat the things that ring true among his target market and customer base. He would be a less useful "tool" for apple if he expressed thought/opinion. You are safe to replace all occurrences of "Steve Jobs" with "Apple corporate".
Oh Mr. Jobs, you sir, are indeed one of the best trolls in the industry.
Here's what I read/TLDR;
iOS is better than Android because I say it is and here's a list pulled out of my iAss with random text that is apparently some kind of facts..I hope"
putting an OS on top of BSD? Is that bad fragmentation slicko?
Clearly, Jobs is concerned with android.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You people act like a cell phone is a religion. Just substitute Christianity/Judaism/Islam in for Iphone/Android/Blackberry (In whatever order you want).
Oh really? Tell me how to remove the Sprint crapware from my EVO? Take a screenshot? Run a service on Port 80, 21, 23, 443? Change the look of the lock screen? That's only a few things I found I CAN'T do on Android without hacking it. I have an EVO 4G and iPhone 4, they both have limitations enforced by the manufacturers and carriers.
...if Jobs slagged off Android then it's because it's hurting his profits & walled garden. And that, my friends, is a *GOOD* thing.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
It supports voicechat though!
Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
While android *might* be fragmented, Apples own IOS updates proceeds to make my 2nd gen iPod touch into a flakier piece of shit with every release. If anything has convinced me to find alternatives to apples products, it is my own experience with their user hostile decisions.
"How dare Google compare our products based on factors that make theirs look superior! We think that they should compare our products only on factors that we think make ours look superior!"
Collector's Edition
That's what I have with Android... Choices. Choice of phone maker, choice of price, choice of carrier, choice to run software not on the market, etc. etc. etc.
Can be found here. Shame about that heckler with the hammer.
That's part of being open. Granted, Google has allowed the fragmentation to become excessive, but that's beside your ill-reasoned point, Steve.
'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time." ...unless you are holding it wrong.
Careful Stevie J, your crazy is showing.
and I think this has something to do with the surge in Android Ad profits of Google, some even say that Android has become Apple's night terror
metageek
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..as an "open" platform. Thanks Steve for the laugh!
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'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.'
Is he so thick-headed that he just "forgot" about his iPhone 4G antenna fiasco? I am fairly certain most of the iPhone 4G's didn't "just work"...but I could be wrong here :)
When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time.
That's nice, Jobs. Let me know the instant you've made that philosophy work in the Mac vs. PC debate, and then I might pretend to take your argument seriously.
PC: Windows NT microkernel with hardware drivers from any number of manufacturers. Sounds fragmented to me!
Mac: The hardware is practically part of the OS. It's all nice and integrated. How much desktop market do you control, again?
Steve Jobs can seriously enter the debates on hardware-software manufacturing paradigms as soon as his philosophy looks viable.
Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
It is pleny open enough for me I open x-code write some code compile it and install it on my phone. I can run anything at all I please on it, of course I spent a whole 100 bucks on the dev license to do so.
Got Code?
So what about antennagate
And now there's Glassgate
Of course, I was running Droid 2.2 2 weeks before Verizon released it. Can you Run the latest IOS before Apple releases it? What happens when a bug is found? In Android, a fix is found and published right way. You get it from apple when you get it.
Run Stevie Run (Runneth over with the Mouth that is)
Stevie is just a scaredy-pants! Droid's gonna eat your lunch :)
I take no responsibility for what I say. Even though I'm never wrong
Classifying the Zen of Apple as way better is merely a subjective judgment. Personally, I prefer to hack everything together because I learn more and can troubleshoot the system myself when it breaks down I call that the "Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance." There is even a book about it.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
Steve Jobs does not agree that Android might be better than iOS. Film at eleven.
What a depressingly stupid machine.
First ever $20 billion quarter for Apple. Are you nuts?
I am looking at leaving iOS because the one thing it utterly fails at - is working.
I can't even tell you how many nightmares of synching I have had with iPhones + iTunes. Heck, nearly 2 weeks ago, iTunes removed 1/2 my contacts from my phone. I have still not been able to get them to sync back up.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Steve....how about you STFU and fix your software. Stop wasting time knocking you competitors and make your crap work.
Thank you very much!
This continuing feud between Apple and Google does nothing but advertise their product and, in essence, works to even further lock out competition. It's really a shame, when it comes down to it.
If you really want to support the only mobile OS that comes close to being open, buy a Palm Pre or the new Pre 2 coming out. The OS is fantastic and Palm has purposely left a backdoor in the system. You download tons of customizations and alter the OS to your liking. Palm doesn't purposely brick "jailbroken" phones, they embrace the patch community and have actively hired talented homebrew programmers and patch creators. It's a nice breath of fresh air, if you ask me and, IMO, the stock WebOS software (despite its flaws) is the best mobile OS on the market. You truly don't see how beautifully designed it is until you've lived with one for a month. It just works and makes sense.
Wise men say, "Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."
Yup....
Steve Jobs is sucking too much mirror these days. iTunes synching experience = nightmare, nightmare, nightmare.
Add in the 50 dropped calls I had this past week. And the result is my iPhone is barely working as a phone.
I go to different grocery stores because they compete on price, carry different kinds of items, and have different specialties.
According to Steve, if he was a grocer, I should shop at just one store (his store), and accept that whatever it sells is what should make me happy.
Because, you know, too many choices are bad for consumers and we need to have Steve tell us what we want or need.
Sorry Steve, I LIKE variety and competition, and I'm not too stupid to navigate the waters of the Android "fragmentation" as you call it.
Your myopic "vision" of what consumers "want" or "need" is wholly self serving.
Emperor Steve, you have no clothes on.....
The first time I flashed Cyanogen mod it took me less than 15 minutes and one cable that came with the phone, now there are guides available that will take even less time. The first time I jailbroke my iPhone took me longer than that so forgive me if I fail to see your point here.
In addition, many of the things I jailbroke the iPhone to be able to do I was able to do out of the box with Android.
He's scared of open platforms.
You do realize that Apple releases Darwin OS right? OS X is Darwin + Aqua + Apple libraries. Darwin is based on NeXT BSD. Under the terms of BSD licensing, Apple has no obligation to release anything. BSD license is far more open than GPL.
Also Apple uses/contributes a great deal to open source software. They own CUPS and release it under the GPL. They forked KHTML and released it as WebKit. They've released Grand Central Dispatch and Bonjour under Apache licenses.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
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No, those phones are not very different. They have a different home screen, some different theming, some additional apps, and a slightly different form factor. Once you start an app, they look and work the same way. And if you like, you can install a standard home screen on all of them.
And whaddayaknow, a lot of the customizations actually are nice differentiators without harming or limiting users. If you like Swype and big screens, buy a Samsung. HTC has a nice set of pre-installed widgets and some nice theming, so get those if that's what you like. And S/E did a good job on tiny Android phones. And yet, all of them can be configured to look and work like any of the others.
It's really the best of both worlds: people who don't want to fiddle buy the phone that has the defaults they like, and people who do know how to configure these things can buy any phone just based on specs, price, and hardware.
I don't think the word "integrated" means quite what you think it means. Yes, Android may be fragments but the iPhone is not integrated. Isn't not integrating half the meaning of "there's an app for that"?
Both SIP & Skype audio & video are actually integrated into Maemo/MeeGo, along with ALL other IM protocols.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
That's crap.
If you buy an Android phone you get a good, straightforward user experience without having to do any kind of hacking on it. You have an easy to use app market with lots of apps which is loosely monitored to make sure it doesn't have malware (without having draconian yet poorly defined rules about what's acceptable and what's not). It comes with some apps that almost everyone is going to want, and has a simple mechanism for finding more apps to fit your needs. The experience you get with an out of the box Android phone is similar to what you get with an out of the box iPhone.
If you're happy with that experience, you're in good shape. There's nothing else you need to do. With iOS, if you're unhappy with that experience you're pretty much out of luck. With Android, the operating system will step out of your way. You have the opportunity to screw things up, but you also have the ability to do things the phone manufacturer never imagined (or perhaps, doesn't approve of).
I don't buy the argument that additional freedom is a bad thing.
That's what I like about Androids, you aren't stuck with one of the crappiest carriers in the US.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
This just goes to show despite showering all sorts of contempt at Google's Pr0n friendly pedestrian fragmented operating system, Mr. Jobs is actually concerned about it posing a credible threat to the supposedly divine, pure, family friendly, idiot proof iPhone.
Mr. Jobs I don't want you telling me what to do with the device I've already paid for. It's mine now. Please let me do what I want to with it.
A new revelation every day
apple is a design company and not an engineering company, jobs is a minimalist his philosophy has been think of what you don't do and not what you can do. That is why their OS did not even have multi-tasking, average joe does not care if your OS can multi task, but he need to be able to make phone calls and check his email, and play casual games. That said, I think jobs should find real reasons if he claims that his product is better. No doubt apple product looks "prettier" than any andriod product out there, he should have just said, we make pretty phones and your phones are just too damn ugly. I could probably agree with that.
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In other news, Steve Jobs also claimed that the "integrated" MacOS market will soon overwhelm the "fragmented" Windows market.
It takes me a whole 5 minutes to learn the difference between stock Android interface and HTC Sense. My brain is fried.
While it would be nice to have a phone on which to load your personal Andriod build, the fact that you don't is not an indication that Android is not open.
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I'd like to get involved in writing kernel drivers for Linux. Once I do the above command line and want to do "make install"... Which one of the following products should I get to install it into?
http://www.slotsdirect.com/
What do you mean Linux has nothing to do with slot machines? That it's a kernel, and not hardware? LINUX ISN'T OPEN SOURCE, YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF COMMIES!
...Also, Android isn't hardware. Android is freely available and open. Hardware might not be. The state of hardware has no bearing on whether or not Android is 'open'.
This is not a difficult concept. Please turn in your geek card.
OK, I was a Mac developer for ten years or so and I completely bought into the "Microsoft is Evil" bandwagon. But I have to say, boy was I ever wrong. First, companies like Blackwell and Haliburton showed us what evil really is. Then Mr. Jobs shows us that while Apple was a great and brilliant underdog, they are absolutely atrocious market leaders.
As much as I loathed Microsoft, they always competed on pure technical innovation, not on lawyers. First Apple sued Microsoft and now they are suing HTC. The patents are questionable and the new lawsuit won't protect iPhones any more than the old one did Macs. But the suit is classic FUD. Accept when Steve says it he is a true believer.
Just to spell it out, Open means you can run Flash on it. Open means you can have a keyboard if you want. Open means you can use a different carrier if you want. Open means you can have tethering and real multitasking if you want. Open means you can compile it yourself.
Remember the old toaster Mac? How can he keep making the same mistakes over and over. No user exapandibility doesn't make a better user experience. No true multi-tasking also doesn't improve the use experience. Being locked into AT&T doesn't improve the user experience. Not being able to use it in South America doesn't improve the user experience.
I'm not too big to admit I was wrong. Mr. Gates, and all of Microsoft, I apologize.
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I just think it is very funny that he chose the word "fragmented" as opposed to "distributed" which is, in my opinion, an extremely widely used word when it comes to comparing two different technologies of these characteristics.
Good Job, Jobs. But I believe you must be very worried to come up with this. But don't worry, I still like your iPhone 3G, I use it every day :)
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"When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time."
Yeah, just look at how well it worked for your personal computers...
Does anybody else notice all sorts of parallels between Apple vs. Google + Linux today, and Apple vs. IBM + Microsoft in the 80s and 90s? Including the hubris?
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For me as a 'geek', I have no problem with even a dozen app stores, different styles of the same user interface, ...
For NORMAL, everyday users - the 90+% of people that aren't working in IT, there IS an advantage in integration, of having only ONE appstore which is neatly integrated into the device, ...
Last weekend was the first time my mother has held an iPad - and she got a lot of things after me showing her the basic gestures (tapping, sliding the finger over the screen, and pinching) and she could navigate her way through the device very easily.
On the normal PC, I don't know how often I had to tell her of how to even open the chat window in Skype, how to copy links, ...
That said - the iPhone/iPad is still not 'perfect' either (iBooks alone has a number of stupid little quirks).
On the other hand, I've seen some workmates wait for Android, and then switch to an iPhone within months of having had their Android phones. There might be people switching in the opposite direction - I just don't know any in our work environment (an otherwise completely non-Apple outfit).
Not unless you jailbreak it.
Nothing I have seen about Jobs leads me to believe that he's "scared" of Android. Steve Jobs simply has a very strong negative opinion of anything where the design of the experience is not carefully crafted and controlled.
Steve Jobs truly believes that control over a design and the utilization of the devices that he creates is a benefit. He's not afraid that you can't do many things with the iPhone that you can do with Android, he doesn't *want* you to be able to do anything. He is interested in making sure that the design of the platform is consistent and uniform with features being rolled out only after they conform to the design, rather than the design to the features. To him, the overall experience is the most important thing, even if it disables some potential features.
What is the problem with Flash? Flash allows third party apps where the iPhone experience does not have to be conformed to. That's reason enough for Steve Jobs to kill it.
Android is just fine, but Jobs' point (agree with it or not), is that Android is fine and all, but its experience is not controlled, and without that control, the consumer market will find itself having a lot more trouble with Android phones, if not now, then in the long term. This may sound like fear or petty bashing to people who like Android, but its neither. Jobs has always believed that his way provides more benefit to the users he wants to target. This may well be arrogance on his part, but nothing he has said leads me to believe that his language is due to anything but his desire to explain to people why he designs and controls the devices in the way he does.
While I think he's perfectly happy with the high sales of the iPhone, and certainly does not want to lose sales to Android phones, this talk is just classic Steve Jobs being Steve Jobs, not Steve Jobs playing scared CEO.
Yes.. I'm fully aware of Apple's selective support of open software solutions.
Apple supports it when it benefits Apple.
so, your point is Steve Jobs is a very controlling egotistical man that runs his company and controls his users like a dictator.
Nothing new...
Because only ONE COMPANY IS MAKING THEM!!!!
Of course companies are going to customize the user experience of their device. But the same software runs on all handsets.
The best way to figure out what people want is to follow the money. Can anyone tell me who has the largest growth or the bigger share between the two?
"Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same." Funny, I've heard that the iPhone doesn't work.
I found a grammar error, free mod points?
People knock android for requiring a Google account, but I would argue that it doesn't: you can install the yahoo mobile app which also does email and contact synchronization.
Note that my statement assumes you are not on at&t which blocks 3rd party apps thus requires a google log-in to get the Yahoo app. A cool thing about Amazon coming out with an app store soon is that it will become an option to purchase an Android phone even on a carrier like AT&T and avoid all ties to google.
I like Google but I can see why some people want to stay out of their databases, a 'fragmented' android is a free android. Steve Jobs and his iJail army will never have that advantage.
Honestly, most of the "problems" with Android I actually consider to be strengths. Now the "fragmented" argument, yes, I can see where that can hurt in the long run, but then again, PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?
PC fragmentation is in hardware, Android fragmentation is in Software, the OS it self. The dominant PC OS is Windows which, what ever else you can say about Microsoft, does an amazing job at providing a consistent (and IMHO crappy, but still consistent) software user experience across an amazing and bewildering array of often depressingly low quality PC hardware. Stability sometimes suffers mostly due to crappy hardware but the consistency of the user experience is the same. MS has also done a fairly decent job at backwards compatibility for software. It's not like the PC's from Lenovo ship with a different Desktop environment than the ones from Dell, Dell is dragging its feet releasing Service Pack X for their custom version of Windows with the result that you can't run half the apps you bought for use on your Lenovo computer on your new Dell and when Dell finally does release the update you are still shit out of luck because they changed the OS in some idiosyncratic way and some of the app developers don't support the Dell variant of Windows. Steve Jobs may be an arrogant prick sometimes but he has a point. Fragmentation is already happening and it will hurt Android in the long run if Google isn't very careful about keeping compatibility issues under control
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
What Steve says: 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.'
What Steve means: Android gives manufacturers and users the choice to change the UI to better suit their own experience, instead of forcing the users to do things the way I think they should be doing it. Waaahhhhh!
What Steve says: 'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.'
What Steve means: We believe telling people how to use their product is the proper way to do things. Customization? Who needs it!
What Steve says: 'This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers. Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone.'
What Steve means: My hugantic ego does not allow me to recognize that I don't need to have a stranglehold on every aspect of my companies product, or shove my vision of how to do things down my customers throats. And multiple sources for app distribution to create a real market with competing prices? Are you insane? I *must* have control of *everything*!
Right after he made Billions stealing FreeBSD's OS and calling it OS X. OK, I see how this works.
As lashings go, that was pretty tame. Actually, as much as I dislike iOS, I have to admit that Steve's point concerning fragmented versus integrated is a good one. Android is starting to go the way of linux - too many disharmonious variants to choose from... and we all know how successful that strategy has been for linux with the general populace.
This just in: Companies market their product using different words to make their product sound better than the competition!
Hey, I have that app (Rotary phone dialer) on my Droid!
iPhone v Android = Microsoft v Linux
Same issues; relative freedom vs closed architecture, centralized v distributed, perceived quality v perceived user experience, bandwagon v meme.
I suspect the end result is still in doubt for both confrontations.
Jobs isn't running his mouth because he is afraid of Android. He can't help but make it a competitive situation and sell his product at the expense of the competition.
And Google isn't in this just for fun, either.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Call me crazy but is that not the point of "open". You can change it as you wish, why is google getting all the flak from someone using the "open" idea to change the look and feel?
Second.. of course all the iPhones look the same.. there is only one company making them (and I am sure not from lack of trying)
Jobs is just pissed because for once he has the upper hand and it lasted 20 minutes,vs the 20 years windows stayed on top..
Stop crying you big bitch, my three year old is not as big a baby..
If Jobs wasn't worried about Android, he wouldn't be making comments about it.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
I am not going to be able to live with myself.
"Jobs... You're a businessman... but your not honest"
You repeat yourself ;)
"Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone"
Load of crap. Apple Apps are largely just data feed GUIs passing as applications ... datafeeds were part of the trillions of websites that were there before the App Store, and still are there. And if you take the few Apps that are really applications ... hell, cnet has had billions long before the App store too ... easy to use, larger and compatible with dozens of devices available in the world beyond the handful of iPhones and iPads.
I like some of Apple's stuff, but god, I hate it when the way that they instill mis-guided consumer confidence with sugar-coated lies about how they did something first when in fact it has already been done. And by the time they do actually bring something good out that beats everything in the market 10 years earlier, it only takes a few months for their competitors to bring out superios products into the market again.
Steve jobs sounds like an idiot in this summary twisting words all around. Android is more open. Real nerds appreciate that. Deal. Android is the reason i did NOT buy an iphone4. Go pee your pants steve jobs!
Didn't this seem like Jobs was channeling Balmer... I was almost expecting chair throwing:p
"we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time."
Translates to
we believe monopolies will trump competition every time.
I have five different grocery stores near my house -- I don't have any problem buying groceries. They all sell slightly different "stuff", which gives me more choice than if I have just one store. CHOICE IS GOOD.
The Android marketplace is competitive capitalism; Apple is one-size-fits-all, buy-what-we-say communism.
I'll take the chaos, thank you.
All about me
"The first thing most of us think about when we hear the word ‘open’ is Windows" - Jobs ///
Yup, the first thing that came to my mind.
I generaly say two things
... within the year Steve will come up with a reason why flash is ok now.
:-)
If I am at a friends house, and I want to put some music in my iPhone on my phone, can I plug it into any computer ?
Every other phone can
If I am traveling and take some photos with my SLR, can I simply plug the SD card into my iPhone. Almost every other smartphone can.
And a final predictions
I just wish what I just wrote is actually said by some Google guy. I am hoping Steve will comit to not supporting flash one more time
G
"The first thing most of us think about when we hear the word 'open' is Windows"
Wow. As stupid as that sounds, I think this is a very dangerous statement. Jobs isn't just missing the point here. He's stealing our words. He appears to be saying "don't focus on open vs closed, focus on fragmented vs integrated." But he isn't really saying that. He's redefining "open" as "fragmented" and "closed" as "integrated". He's de-valuing all of the advantages of an open platform and summarising the entire paradigm with the word "fragmented".
or Choice vs No Choice, ie. either like Apple's UI or fuck off. I like the fact that Android has a CHOICE of flavors, whatever suits you. As opposed to Apples straight jacket
Apple supports it when it benefits Apple.
And most for-profit companies do things to make them profits. So what? Did you miss the part where Apple has no obligation to release Darwin? What about open sourcing both Grand Central Dispatch and Bonjour (both Apple inventions)? What is in it for them? You just don't want admit that Jobs isn't afraid of open source. The fact that Apple has used it since the beginning of OS X undermines your statement.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I don't get it. Developers already do this. It's not a bad thing. If we are developing for any pc os, we have to test on different install configs and platforms. this is normal.
He's pretty much saying cross platform development is bad. When seen in the light of his previous tirade against flash and the compilation of as3 to iphone app; You know, the one where he artificially makes it unable to happen with legaleeze; We can start to see some anti trust violations happening. He is first artificially preventing cross platform languages on the iphone. Then he says the competition is horrible for doing what the natural market has done for decades.
This is going a little farther than when Microshit put the crush on Netscrap.
Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary
of the Information Purification Directives.
We have created for the first time in all history,
a garden of pure ideology.
Where each worker may bloom secure
from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths.
Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon
than any fleet or army on earth.
We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause.
Our enemies shall talk themselves to death
and we will bury them with their own confusion.
We shall prevail!
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.
Yes, that's all we need is everyone / everywhere to have the same exact anything. Because free will and choice is so overrated.
Closed = Integrated = Cathedral. Open = Fragmented = Bazaar. Eric Raymond is once again revealed as a visionary whose prophecy has long legs.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
640k should be enough for everyone...
I said apple was afraid of an open platform such as android, not open source itself.
I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.
Where is the disagreement? NeXT? Its OSX now... and I still cant officially buy and run it on an intel PC, and Mac Compatibles are illegal to sell... which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.
Its their right as people point out... but... hardly open.
Apple wants you to do it the Apple way... and whatever that is... is at Steve Job's whim.
'Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.'
In other words...Android is open and iOS and iPhone are closed.
When selling to users who want their devices to just work...
Funny. My Android phone just worked as soon as I got it. No iTunes required.
Also, since Leopard Server (and Snow Leopard Server), I know better than to trust that anything from Apple with "just work".
Oh, and Android's SDK just worked on my Linux box. No $99 developer fee or other bullshit. Getting my own version of K-9 built and installed on my phone, with zero knowledge about the Android SDK, took under an hour.
And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.
Oh yes, because hearing about how other developers created something, only to be told that they couldn't sell it on the App Store for arbitrary reasons is so encouraging.
Bite my shiny metal ass, Steve.
And Google doesn't do the same? Where is their open source PageRank project?
He's scared of Android.
He's scared of open platforms.
There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.
I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.
My point is everyone uses something that suits them. I use open source when it suits me. I use closed source when it suits me. So what is your point?
Where is the disagreement? NeXT? Its OSX now... and I still cant officially buy and run it on an intel PC, and Mac Compatibles are illegal to sell... which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.
Your complaint was that Apple only used open source when it benefited them. My point was how does open sourcing something that they don't have to open source benefit Apple? Maybe they released it because they might be altruistic in this regard. Now you bring up the point that Apple doesn't sell Darwin by itself? Darwin is free. What is that your point?
which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.
Are you talking about openness of Unix or openness of PC platform? Because they are not the same thing and Unix was not open. BSD was open. You can run BSD, Linux, or Windows on a Mac.
Under the terms of BSD you can put Darwin on a generic machine and sell it. You can install OS X and be covered under Fair Use, but it's a gray area whether you can sell it. To my knowledge Apple hasn't cared too much if hobbyists may happen to sell a machine. If you decide to start a business (like Psystar) whose sole purpose is to infringe on Apple's copyrights, they will care. The same thing would happen if you started a business to sell generic PCs with AIX installed. IBM would sue you into oblivion.
By the way, I don't know if you're noticed that any second-hand PC you get normally through e-bay, re-sellers, etc has Windows removed. I'm pretty sure that MS considers Windows OEM licenses non-transferrable without additional fees (if the original licensee consents).
Its their right as people point out... but... hardly open.
What is your definition of "open"? Because it's becoming clear that open means you can do what every you want without regard to copyrights and licenses.
Apple wants you to do it the Apple way... and whatever that is... is at Steve Job's whim.
Apple hasn't given a damn that I run an assortment of closed and open source on my Mac. Perhaps you are generalizing without any concrete examples.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Steve nails on the head the reason why I won't buy an Android device. However I still won't buy an Apple iOS device untill it offers all the bells and whistles that my much older Nokia phone has.
Real GPS, 5 Megapixel+ Camera with flash, REMOVEABLE STORAGE, REPLACEABLE BATTERY.
Now I don't really care tooo much about the replaceable battery, but the removeable storage is a must, otherwise I'll be burning through the NAND memory everytime I go on a trip and having to take along a laptop. To give you an idea the last trip I took, I took along 4 8GB SDHC cards for use with my Still-Picture camera. Nothing yet does 1080p video, and it's unlikely that the iPhone or any "Phone" sized device will since the onboard NAND memory is likely too freaking slow. If I want to use it for taking lots of pictures... no replaceable battery then becomes a problem. Good thing I have a REAL camera too. The removeable storage wouldn't even be that much of an issue if the mobile phone networks wouldn't charge 5 cents a kilobyte if I could just email every single photo to my home PC.
Isn't it interesting that Apple produced the "1984" commercial [here] all those years ago to show how different they were from the "one size fits all" model, and now they're advocating for it because it is them?
Jobz seyz: Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented.
So it is somewhat fragmented. That makes Android no longer open? How could one not define iOS as "closed?"
Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.
This is only an issue (a minor one) if you buy a new device every few months, and change manufacturers when you do. My HTC Dream/T-Mobile G1 is 2+ years old and still going strong. It was very easy to get used to, and can run all but the newest Android apps. I can run the apps *I* want to run, not the ones the manufacturer says are okay. It is still pretty amazing for a 2+ year-old device. I have also easily been able to add updated, semi-3rd party firmware to bring it nearly up to date. Why do I care if it is very slightly different than a Samsung or Motorola phone? Do iPhone users need to get new devices every six months, or something? Plus I have the option of having a REAL, physical keyboard, rather than something likes the iPhone's touchscreen keyboard that takes up a lot of real estate and doesn't work worth a damn for people with large fingers.
Choice is good, and I will choose to avoid all Apple products until I can use them as I see fit rather than how they want me to.
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
Yes, I'm glad that Jobs points out that the Apple phones ALL function the same. ALL two models...
What does it matter at the end of the day whether a platform is open or closed? There are arguments for and against for both and ultimately it is the user who choses which platform fits his or her use best. Both are functional. http://thesecondopiniontribune.blogspot.com/2010/10/android-or-apple-open-or-not-open-thats.html
No, it's an indication that openness is the wrong thing to be arguing, because openness gains you nothing. Oh look, that's exactly what SJ said ;)
Just for reference as well – it *is* part of what makes it free, it may be OSS, but not FOSS.
- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
(I have built my own PCs, compiled my own Linux kernel, used UNIX since college, programmed in Windows, designed ICs, etc and am slowing switching to Macs)
1) I wanted to stream music through the house. I bought an airport express for under $100, plugged it in, connected it to the network and my stereo. When I got to my mac, it had a dialog stating that it just detected an Airport Express, would I like to configure it? Sure; up and running in a few minutes.
2) On another occasion, when I started to stream music to the Airport Express, a dialog popped up telling me the audio cable was unplugged.
3) I was at a friend's house and he was using his Ipod Touch. I pointed out that if he bought an Airport Express to connect to his stereo and downloaded the free Remote app from Apple, he would have streaming music in his house and full remote control in his pocket for $100 and 5 minutes of his time. He did this the next day.
4) To get my wife's macbook on our network, I just had to type in the SSID and password and she was surfing the net in a few minutes.
5) When Snow Leopard came out with Exchange support, I VPN'ed into work, gave iCal my email address and password, and it found the server and downloaded my mail in a minute. It takes me that long to find the correct dialog in Outlook, let alone to configure it.
6) Wife's laptop hard drive crashed. Took it to the local Apple store and had the laptop back with a new hard drive in a day. My son's Dell Studio had to be sent in for a third time (10 day turn-around each time) before they finally agreed it was a POS and sent us a new model.
I struggle to think up just one experience like this after years with Windows and Linux. On top of that, in OS X i have discovered Folder Actions; the Automator; pre-installed python, perl, svn; and the development environment comes with the PC. I don't regret one cent of the Apple premium I have paid.
Android is promising, but I am worried what its eco system will look like once the carriers are through with it.
What Android seems to need is a formal spec and a tough set of compatibility tests. That's how you deal with interoperability problems.
I used to be in aerospace. In that industry, if A and B don't interoperate, you go to the spec. If A isn't compliant, A is wrong. If B isn't compliant, B is wrong. If you can't tell, the spec is wrong. That's why you can unplug a Rolls-Royce engine from a Boeing 747, plug in a Pratt and Whitney engine, and go fly. Many years ago, in the early 1980s, I applied that reasoning to TCP/IP interoperability, and I was instrumental in pounding implementations into conforming to the published spec. At the time, it was a radical concept that completely different computers from different vendors with different implementations should talk to each other. Berkeley TCP originally did not play well with others. They felt it was only necessary to interoperate with other Berkeley UNIX systems. They were pounded on by their DoD funding agency until they got with the program.
Google needs to apply some of that hardass attitude to get cross-platform compatibility.
"getting the fullest benefits of computing" is the essence of what hacking is. Anyone who can't hack, by definition, cannot get the full benefit of computing. Just like only a skilled machinist can get the full benefit out of a machine shop.
I love how Jobs, and Jobs alone, is the expert on what each and every customer wants. Why don't you come down from your ivory tower and interact with the hoi polloi for a while, Steve? You might learn something...then again, it might not be what you want to hear, and you might get dirt on your shoes.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
From the article, "Jobs said. 'The first thing most of us think about when we hear the word ‘open’ is Windows, which is available on a variety of devices.'"
Really Steve? Your platform is so closed that it makes Windows look open to you? WOW
Apple Macintoshes were characterized as an integrated experience/closed platform pitted against the open standards of the IBM PC. He sees the same battle here.
-jpeg
Job's Principle .. i mean "Shaw's Principle: Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it."
He's pretty much saying any fool can pick up an iPhone and use it ... and boy there sure are alot of fools that love thier iPhone!
So he just called all his customers fools! Whats that say about the state of the population in general? Fools I tell ya!
Me? Im no dummy! I just bought a Droid. =P
'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time'
Generally, when users want their devices to just work, they don't buy devices that drop signal for no good reason (other than defucktive engineering of course.) Not that I'm taking Google's side either, Steve just needs Woz to give him a swift kick in the danglybits and hopefully the infamous reality distortion field will power down a notch.
College-Pages.com - Online Colleges, Degrees, and Programs
also runs iOS.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
"So in summary, Steve Jobs does have a point about this and is not spouting straight bullshit. "
It is complete B.S.
Jobs sees the writing on the wall. iPhone will go the way of the Mac. Popular with 10% of the users of smartphone. That bothers him because he's in exactly the same situation he was in the late 80's. In the lead, but it can't last.
He's getting 30% of the app market. Good for him.
Microsoft figured out that 1% of a huge market is better than 30$ of a small market. And every Android phone that is sold costs Steve Jobs $2500. Work the math over 1M phones to see that as much as Apple's top & bottom line look great today, it's a shooting star and that he will fall out of the mainstream over the next 5 years.
All because he wants absolute control. It didn't work last time, it won't work this time.
Fanboi delusions aside.
"I said iOS has, and continues to, outsell Android. There's no "in-between" about it"
The only "in-between" is that you're completely and utterly wrong. iOS has the larger installed base, but Android is outselling iOS, continues to do so, and is pulling away.
Stop being such a fanboi that you make stuff up.
I mean, Jobs is denouncing a competitor after all, amirite?
I have nothing clever to put here...
He's scared of Android.
He's scared of open platforms.
There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.
I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.
My point is everyone uses something that suits them. I use open source when it suits me. I use closed source when it suits me. So what is your point?
I'm quoting what you wrote and what you quoted that I wrote. Re read it. You said "There is no mention of "like android" anywhere near that second sentence" Uh.. RIGHT ABOVE IT, I WROTE IT.
If you're going to pick apart my words... at least read them without disregarding the ones you dislike.
I'm quoting what you wrote and what you quoted that I wrote. Re read it. You said "There is no mention of "like android" anywhere near that second sentence" Uh.. RIGHT ABOVE IT, I WROTE IT.
My exact quote:
There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.
In != near. Also you fail to address that you did not link the two subjects together. Maybe you did in your own mind, but you failed to do so in writing. And I can't read your mind.
If I said "I am scared of Dobermans. I am scared of dogs." the implication is that I am scared of dogs in general and Dobermans in particular. If someone pointed out that I own a Boston terrier that would make my second statement untrue. What I might have meant is "I am scared of dogs like Dobermans" that is a different meaning in that some breeds like Dobermans scare me.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
If Apple's devices "just worked," why do they have technical support services?
Yes, it drives you there unmodified. ...but you need to do the Konami code on the steering wheel first :-P
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Also, boobies apps don't get auto-magically deleted just because someone at Google thinks they are amoral.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Jobs also criticized life outside iJail, pointing out that there are innumerable choices to make, causing confusion for those who escaped and those who must support them. 'This is gonna be a mess for both the fugitives and their family,' Jobs said. 'Contrast this with life in iJail, which offers the easiest existence, in that you are relieved of the burdens of choice and decision-making.'"
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. -Gandhi