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Take the FBI's Geek Profile Test
Do you have above average intelligence? Are you sometimes a loner, a part of a small circle of friends perceived as outsiders?
Do you have "unstable" self-esteem? Are you fascinated by cults, weapons, games with themes of violence and death?
Do you come from a dysfunctional home? Resent authority? Reject criticism?
If the answer to most or all of the above is yes, then congratulations and welcome to the FBI's Geek Profile, its checklist of dangerous or potentially violent characteristics in school children.
In recent weeks this psychological "tool," polished by the FBI and other agencies and now being distributed to a school near you, has been creeping across the country.
Federal and local law enforcement authorities have used this sort of profiling for years to spot potential assassins, criminals and terrorists.
Now, following a small number of horrific school shootings, it's being made available to educators in the United States and, according to a number of northern e-mailers, Canada as well.
And it's not alone out there. Last month, the federal government announced that Mosaic-2000, a computer profiling system developed by the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (AFT) Division and a private celebrity - security agency, was being deployed to 30 or more U.S. schools to "target potentially dangerous people."
Neither federal nor school officials have said how this material will be stored, or to whom it might be made available. Nor is it clear whether students will be made aware of the fact that they are being labeled potential murderers, or whether they and their parents will have any opportunity to respond.
Such geek -profiling tools are increasingly popular despite the fact that the violent crime rate among kids in America has been plunging for years and is virtually non-existent in Canada.
This doesn't seem to bother educators much, perhaps because even if there isn't much violence to contain, geek profiling is proving an invaluable tool against rebellious, offensive, individualistic and outspoken students. Many participate in Net and Web culture, where they have vastly more freedom and creative experience than in schools, and who report the goal of this war on the non-normal isn't safety, but conformity and silence.
But why be deterred by truth or logic? Since the Columbine shootings in Colorado last year, students at American schools have reported an epidemic of suspensions, expulsions and forced counseling sessions for various offenses: wearing "inappropriate" clothing like trenchcoats or Goth make up, playing computer games like "Quake" and "Doom," spending too much time online, responding honestly to questions about whether they like school, making what administrators consider threats against classmates or teachers.
This week, more than a dozen principals, administrators and geeks e-mailed me a chunk of the FBI report circulating through U.S. and Canadian schools, purporting to detail some of the characteristics of "potentially violent" kids.
"Your term 'geek profiling' is dead on," wrote one principal. "The kids we are all beginning to look at are those that play violent video games, who are on the Internet all the time, and who don't participate in 'mainstream' school activities. Or who are seriously disenchanted with school or the structure of school. Of course, now, we can just label them as psychos rather than listen to what they say. But I can tell you, kids who spent a lot of time on the Net or playing computer games are prime suspects for evaluation and observation. Because we all know what they can get their hands on."
Here are the specific FBI characteristics, according to several principals. Potentially violent or dangerous students are:
Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence. Often loners, or have small circle of friend who are outsiders. Experience unstable self-esteem. Often fascinated by cults, Satanism, weapons, themes of violence and death. Experience a decline in schoolwork and marks. Come from dysfunctional homes. Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use. Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism.In addition to the e-mail sent by disturbed principals and guidance counselors ("there's a fine line between bright and unhappy adolescents and mass-murderers," e-mailed one counselor. "I don't see it spelled out it in this FBI profile.") the FBI's "geek profile" was outlined to a Halifax, Nova Scotia newspaper (http://www.hfxnews.southam.ca/NatStory3.html) by an official of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
The FBI's checklist is as revealing for what it doesn't say as for what it does. Bullies and predators who prey on kids who are different or "non-normal" aren't considered dangerous, nor are teachers and educators who preside over uncreative, hostile and, to many kids, suffocating classroom environments.
No group of students, parents or citizens anywhere in the United States had been given an opportunity to vote - or even comment -- on the practice of injecting federal law enforcement investigative tools designed for responding to the most serious imaginable crimes committed by adults into daily classroom life.
Kids who call themselves geeks and nerds vary widely in social skills, emotional characteristics and family and class background. But many have experienced differing degrees of boredom, alienation, and experiences with bullying. They may like forms of gaming that might be branded violent. Many are often seen as loners, or rely on small circles of friends who share their culture.
Now they may have to deal with the suggestion that they're potential killers as well. It's possible - though statistically just barely - that some of these kids will turn violent and hurt themselves or their classmates.
But what's certain is that in the wake of the Columbine killings, they are the targets of ignorant and unfounded hysteria from the very people who are supposed to be protecting them, with the willing co-operation of those who are supposed to be educating them.
Couldn't this also be used as "Run of the Mill Programmer" Profiling Test?
Mage
Even as a mature 36 year old I meet over half the requirements. What does this say about me ?
Good job I'm in the UK!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
They forgot to include "Is bullied mercilessly by others."
If this stuff was around when I was in grade/high school, I'd be locked away with no possibility of parole, for life. (Reminded of Megadeth tune, "Captive Honour"). I mean, lookit the freaks, let's expel them, toss them in for some re-education (Hell, let's even call it the "Ministry of Love, *chuckle*).
Nevermind that this is also the profile of some of the brightest students with the most of offer society, that for one reason or another aren't in a good situation.
I didn't fit in with my peers; It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that I was different. Sooner or later I found some more people like me (that would be the "group of outsiders" and I turned out all right.
Why not address the problems that are causing these people not to be accepted? If you replaced "geek profiling" with "miniority profiling", there would be riots in the streets.
Rant off..
Kudos..
..don't panic
To which end of the bullying do you suppose they are referring?
I heard in the news a week or two ago that Mosaic 2000 is being presented to some school officials in Canada (in the Toronto area IIRC).
I'll be interested to see what is done with the results from these profiles, once someone is labeled a pontential killer, I wonder what they will do with them. Force them to become jocks?
Incidently, there has been a few incidents of school violence up here recently. One shooting incident in Canada that made the national headline. A little while after Columbine, a kid in Alberta shot 2 of his classmates. More recently, in TO, there have been a couple of kids beaten (one to death). Another gang-beating in BC last year and 1 kid stabbed over a box of Pokemon cards a month or so ago in Montreal. That's about half a dozen deaths, probably way less than the number killed in car accidents. Haven't seen any Bad Driver profiling being proposed!
Dana
And I was dangerous. That's right: I spent most of my high school years with a tenuous grasp of "killing people is just wrong" being the only thing that kept me from blowing the join up. I knew how. I had explosives. I had no reason to love anyone. All I had was a vague realization that there was a supreme morality and if I 'killed them all' as I wanted to I would have just reduced myself to their level.
The problem is not the profiling: that's normal prudence. I desperately wish that someone had realized just how dark my world was and tried to help. I wish they would have locked me up in a mental institution and some of what was going on in my home would have come out. But it didn't. And I still pay the price in emotional anguish. I wish there had been a chaplain in my high school instead of a "guidance counselor". I wish someone had loved me enough to intervene.
But no one did.
Bottom line is that I have no problem with this "profiling" you whine about Jon. But I wish they would concentrate more on what to do with the kids once they find them. It comes down to love. And no one in our society is ready to make that kind of commitment.
-- Slashdot sucks.
We should all thank the FBI for providing educators with such a valuable tool for identifying that 1 in a million kid who will kill his classmates. Now, we can throw him in jail before he perpetrates his deed.
Oh, we can tell which one of the million kids is really the potential killer? Let's treat them all like potential killers, just to make sure!
Mike Eckardt meckardt@yahoo.spam.com
I think I'll call my parents tonight and thank them. :)
if someone actually wants to break the law it can be done without too much fuss or muss. Really most of the greatest criminal minds are usually people who have maticulously honed minds and who have an uncanny ability not to get caught. A great many people in this world really get sore about not being able to find out criminals because all the easy types are already caught. All the mass murderers are pulled over for speeding tickets before they can take that Uzi and take out a building full of people. So what does the FBI and others do? They go looking for "potentially dangerous" people so they can look good.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
they say fascination with Satanism, cults, and death like there's something wrong with it.
>>Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence.
Check.
>> Often loners, or have small circle of friend who are outsiders.
Not only that, but I know them over the 'net.
>> Experience unstable self-esteem.
Yep... Been there, done, that, and hate myself for it half of the time. ^_^
>> Often fascinated by cults, Satanism, weapons, themes of violence and death.
Well EXCUSE ME for being into swords. =p
>> Experience a decline in schoolwork and marks.
*nodnod*
>> Come from dysfunctional homes.
Dunno if _dysfunctional_, but it sucks.
>> Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use.
*Not drug use, but has been mocked derisively for years*
>> Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism.
Lemme see here... I'm posting this long thing about myself, and I'll probably post an angry reply if someone flames me. =p
Maybe this is why they were so freaked out the called the FBI and expelled me just because I said "remember... may 15..." a few times. =p
There's a saying that goes something like, "People usually deserve the government they have."
Do we deserve actions like this?
Do people care about attacks on our civil liberties?
Tell ya what. I'm the father of a 7 week old baby boy. Now with myself being a 'second generation' it professional (both my mother and father were programmers during the punch card era). Does this mean that my son will be singled out because the first day he was home from the hospital, he was on my lap as I was putting the finishing touches on a pc? I wonder if he'll be subject to profiling because I'll encourge him to think for hisself and to question everything. Will he be labeled as a threat because I have taught him to be an individual, and not a sheeple?
If so... I'm moving to a remote island somewhere where seashells are legal currency. The hell with a country like that!
GIHM -The light at the end of the tunnel is only the oncoming train.
This is pretty much typical on the short-sided minds of most of the people in this country, especially in the southern states. It's no secret that they've always disliked anyone different from themselves, but now they have to harass them too? I mean come on, the very children they're labeling as potential murderers and troublemakers are probably going to end up their bosses one of these days. Just because someone is of a higher intelligence doesn't mean they're gonna go out here and empty a local taco bell with an uzi. No, the *REAL* troublemakers here are the FBI and the school administration, for being short-sided. The *REAL* potential murderers here are the FBI and the school administration, for the potential murder of individuality and creativeness, which are what make interesting enough to live.
A flute with no holes is not a flute.
One of the creepiest Twilight Zones I'd ever seen was one from the short-lived new series(in color). It's following the life of a young boy in a slightly futuristic society. He's about to "come of age" and must take a government mandated exam. The boy is busy reading and persuing other intellectual activities, and yet the parents are trying to get him to go out and play. The day of the test comes, and the parents reluctantly take him down to the government center. At the end of the episode they are called with the results, "we regret to inform you that your son's intellegence quotient has exceeded government regulations, would you like the body returned for burial?"
There needs to be a "If you answered no to all of these questions just because you don't want to be carted away" type of question. Anyone serious enough to want to kill would have no problem skirting this 'test'.
I personally like going for the Charles Manson profile.
--WooooHoooo--
What if told you before a child was born that it was 99% more likely to be aggressive and over 96% more likely to end up in jail? Would you abort the child (or have your wife abort it)? But then, what if I told you if your child is a MALE, it would be 99% more likely to be aggressive and over 96% more likely to end up in jail? Just think about it. This is just more Big Brother, I can't think about this too much or my head hurts. I can't believe some of the shit this government does. I strongly encourage you all to write your senators and representatives about things like this. They do listen.
-- Das Leben is ein Hund; Es bellt und beisst, es frisst und scheisst, und manchmal reibt sich's an Deinem Bein
That quote from the principal, the one with the "label psycho" bit, it seems very very very unlikely to me that that's non-bogus.
-k. ^-^ ^D
Yeah, there's some nasty stuff out there. Anyone with a web connection can have their mind polluted by such pernicious crap as...
Thoreau's Walden
The complete works of Shakespeare
Pretty much all of the surviving philosophical writings of the ancient Greeks
Government legislation, bills being prepared, what congress has to say every day...
I could go on all day, but I'm sure you get the point.
Incredible.
The orwellian future of the US seems to be gradually taking shape.
How "strange" that the US government seems to be focusing its efforts at what is effectively intended to be its own ruling class of the future.
Little or no effort seems to be placed in identifying those who are already troublemakers. i.e. drug dealers, gang bangers and first posters.
This troubles me, because trends set in US usually make their way over here (UK) in a few years.
Luckily you guys have a constitution, or you would be in real shit, eh?
Hmmm.
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
As usual, Katz never cites any hard sources for his assumptions. For statistics and analysis of crime rates among students, please take a look at the NEA's School Safety Facts. Please keep in mind that the NEA (National Educators Association) is a teachers' lobbyist concern, and does have some slant in the favor of public school teachers.
That said, I find Katz' immediate implication of 'educators' as proponents of the Mosaic 2000 program offensive. I can't think of many teachers who would support such an idiotic proposal, and also resent the implication that educators would support such an abomination to suppress free speech outside the classroom, using such media as the WWW.
While I agree that there /has/ been a failing of late for teachers to meet the needs of some of their brighter students, there is only a finite amound of work these people can do in the course of a day. When you have a class of at least 20-25 students, it is very difficult for the teacher to focus on just /one/ student. What these people need is support, not half-informed pundits shooting their mouth off.
Weapons of Mass Analysis
Jon has a gift for explaining the problem, but none for putting together solutions. We need to start looking at this as what it is -- a continuation (not a new thing) -- of long-standing social attitudes toward mental differentness ("illness").
The same set of checks was almost verbatim what my high scholl pshrynk described as ways of finding suicide risks. Why is suicide like school shooting? The threat of either can get you tossed out of school and even locked up.
We need to start rejecting the "right" of school administrators and pshrynks to discriminate on the basis of mental "stability" real or perceived. We need to stop defending ourselves as "geeks are still stable, unlike these people" and start saying, "yes, geeks are unstable, just like most great achievers and great people."
Just like school adminstrators insist on equal treatment of hormone- and violence-addled football-bashers, they should accept that they must also provide equal treatment for the pallid, shy, sociopathic geek in the corner. Certainly the truly exceptional of the former have beaten, knifed, and raped a hundred times as many students as the truly exceptional of the latter have ever shot or bombed.
We need to stop fearing the mentally unstable -- the mentally unstable are the ones who will grow into the brilliantly creative. And without those, well, the dark ages were a more violent time by far than the renaissance.
--G
Perfect, now we can concentrate on helping those rare teenagers that suffer from unstable self-esteem.
Any chance of getting a link or post of the text of the profile?
I recall attending a pro-marajuana legalization rally once. They detailed the California Highway Patrol's profile of a person driving under the influence of grass:
- Obeys speedlimit
- Comes to complete stops
- Courteous
Of course this is a horrible simplification from memory, but you get the point. Perfectly legal and (and otherwise sociable) behaviour becomes reason to harrass and annoy, as is driving while [black|latino] in certain neighborhoods.
This strikes me as a "COTS" approach to law enforcement, although the more paranoid side of me tends to think this is just a way for "the man" to bring more people under control of "the system".
(Incidentally, I think I may have fat-fingered and accidentally posted an incomplete version of this post.. My bad... I'll go moderate it out...)
I agree that the recent witch-hunting has been overboard and reactionary. The stories I've heard recently are horrible. But for the administration of a school which is responsible for the student body, I imagine some sort of profiling is necessary to identify those students who might need some counceling or intervention.
There were some items on the list that would make me take note if I were a school counsellor. Especially things like use of bullying, drug use, not responding to critisism, etc. Although a good half of the items on the list would target "geeks", the other half made some good sense.
It's not the use of profiling but the blind misuse of profiling that needs to be examined. I know that a stupid school admin might have noticed that I played Dungeons & Dragons and immediately assumed I was dangerous, but someone with half a brain would notice that I (and most geeks) would obviously apply.
Murray Todd Williams
When things happen people do not want to admit that it is their society at fault and so they choose scapegoats. With each group fighting and gaining their rights a new generation of scapegoats is born ... guess what, that's us. Who cares if [statistically] most of us are passifists or that we resent authority because it has given up on up? Not the government, not the society, not the people who want to turn a blind eye to the society of hate and fear against us.
Then I go to the school or I talk to the students or my brother (who is in HS), and it is happening. They have an officer in the halls every day, places to report "disturbed" students or students who "need help" are posted on bulletin boards, and teachers express concern about the safety of carrying backpacks or wearing heavy coats. This from a school that had one fight my senior year (two years ago). Not exactly a hotbed of violent activities.
The bottom line is that it is happening in the schools and communities you and I know and love, and we need to do something about it. Visit your schools and express your concerns. It sure doesn't feel like it's doing much good at the time, when the administrators smile and nod and say "It's for the kids' safety", but maybe sooner or later we'll make an impression.
Let's keep our youth and our society safe by making it what we want it to be with our own hands, not by sitting aside and watching the government mandate safety in ways that persecute youth that could have been you or I a handful of years ago.
This is based on people I know, my own experiences and my knowledge of what these areas require of a person.
What this profile essentially says is: "We won't trust you if you threaten our over-bloated ego, whether that be by you taking care of yourself, helping others, or contributing something of significance to society."
Remember, we've only Jon Katz' word that this -IS- the profile used, and we're familiar with his rather partisan spins in the past. On the other hand, if this is genuine, whoever came up with the test should be put under observation immediately as a potential threat, for openly violent discrimination and inciting hatred based on discrimination.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I trust this kind of tests as I trust the tests my girlfriend rips off from Cosmopolitan and Elle.
A test that tries to link a single fact with a single source to made a biased conlcusion.
Let's say:
In highschool I was a Loner, because I could not integrate with the rest of the people because 70% of them were on drougs and I did not like that.
I formed a small circle of clean people and we where the target for jokes and the like.
My self esteem was dynamic, some weeks high and others low, as any adolescent.
I liked weapons, especially War Airplanes, and WW2 history...I readed many books about and I still do it.
I play Quake and Unreal in a weekly basis with friends (lan parties). The difference is that now some of them bring their wifes and babies, and we dring less beer and more bourbon.
My school marks were awfull since I started working, because I needed money.
My house, as every one I know can be labeled "dysfunctional".
No drugs...thanks god.
No attention seeking, but don't like clueless people, trying to take attention, to criticise my solids point of view.
Well, In this "Gilrlie Magazine" Test, I'm a psycho ready to kill...
And now I understand why agencies are so useless to prevent incidents, they think they can make a "Mosaic" of people, that everybody is a cloned entity and all act and react the same...
They are really clueless and I thank god that I graduated a long time ago...
Next week's FBI test will let us find "The Perfect Lover Profile Test" two pages after the "Millenium Linguini Recipe" and just before the "New Trends for next Winter"...Don't miss the interview with Brad Pitt!!
I would just like to say, as with the majority of /.'ers I have fit into this profile for at least a decade. I can just hope that my childern can grow up in a more accomidating school environment, not one that labels them just for being who they are.
I find it very amusing to see this become such a big topic for teachers and principals. School age kids are killed every day. Now that the school officails feel threatened, we have to label kids.
And they are going about it all wrong. They are labeling the wrong people
The qeustion that keeps comming back to me is why are they not labeling the bullies, without which most "outcasts" would not feel so "putdown". Without this pressure, would the kids snap? What about the teachers that don't care enough about there students to approach them on occasion and ask them how things are going today. And we could never question why schools are always under funded these days, that would never be tolerated.
I just don't get it anymore. This is just one more Quick Fix(tm) for a broken system.
I for one have always believed that the home environment is the biggest factor in the potential for violence. Espically the repression of anger. If one is not able to effectively express anger it is going to come out in very destructive ways.
This is very evident in the serial killer Ted Bundy. He was the son of a Baptist preacher. With me being baptist and having quite a bit of contact with Baptist preachers. I have noticed all of them have in some way repressed or shut down the anger of their children. This is where you get the PK (Preachers Kid) syndrome. With Ted Bundy it was more extreme in most casese so his repressed anger came out in a much more extreme manner.
I am a geek by far. I inherited this from my geek father. I was an outcast in school and church. I am now a very well adjusted geek. At the age of 22 I make 82K a year with only 3 semesters of college. I still go to the same church and am an active member of it. I attribute my success to the way I was allowd to express my anger in my home without the fear of repression or judgement from my parrents. If it was not for the open environment of the home I WOULD be in jail for lashing out with my repressed anger and probably killing some if not most of my class mates.
Sorry about my ramblings but I feel strongly in this area.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
I would just like to point out that violent juvenile crime is down about 30% since 1994. In fact, this is the 12th straight year it has declined.
This is a statistic by the Justice Department which tracks murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault.
Also, firearm deaths in general are down more than 21% from 1993
Now, the crimes are just receiving a lot more attention and sensationalism.
Pisses me off when I hear all "These kids are unbelievable nowadays" attitudes. There are just more of them... bound to be bad apples in the mix.
One of the sub-texts of this book talked about "hierarchal exfoliation" -- the removal of both the super-incompetent and the super-competent from the hierarchy, because these people tend to disrupt the orderly workings. In many schools, the "super-incompetent" students were often assigned to "special education" or other similar areas where they were no longer disrupting the "normal" classes. For that matter, they used to have "gifted" classes for "super-competent" students, but I think that this was discontinued because it suggested that the "mainstream" students weren't similarly gifted. (I use the quotes for terms that I personally question, but those questions range beyond the scope of this post.)
Now, if the above article is true, the FBI has just handed school administrators a tool for removing these "super-competent" students. In many of these cases, such students:
have had the handle "Teacher's Pet" hung on them and were subsequently ostracized
have been exposed to "violent games" such as Doom, Quake, or that old standby bugbear of school administrators, Dungeons & Dragons
have been subjected to years of ridicule and isolation from their peers that their self-esteem is often pretty fragile.
What this benighted "profile" does is tell geeks to develop camouflage -- in the same society where we quote Shakespeare's "To thine own self be true" -- all for the sake of beleaguered school administrators who want a quick fix to soothe panicked parents. Well, most of us on this board know what happens with quick fixes....
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
What happens is my school sees this stuff? Do I answer truthfully, saying that I match their profile, except for the drug use and dysfunctional family part, and risk being expelled?
I go to a Catholic school because the public school near me isn't that great, and my parents wanted me to have a better education... but this is a Catholic school, it's pretty easy to be expelled...
I mean... why is it all of a sudden so bad to be a geek? Good points were made in that the bullies should be looked at as having something wrong, possibly...
I mean, a girl that hung out with a bunch of kids that picked on me in elementary school had a freaking baby last month! And she's 16! Yet, I'm the one the FBI is targetting as potentially dangerous... Isn't it somewhat kinda bad to have a kid at 16... especially when the person was doing drugs before and during pregnancy????
I don't like to flip out at nothing, but this seems as if it could get me expelled if my school sees it and I answer truthfully...
Should I just lie?
Face it, main stream primary, middle, and high school education is nothing for us - your only chance is that a clever math or science teacher protects you somewhat because he or she recognises the technical talent. Its a pity that it gets worse in the schools, but on the other hand, the net makes it easier for todays kids to find out that there are many more geeks. It gets better at university, as the lecturers themselves are often geeks. Chilli
-=- Just a random lambda hacker
Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence.
Probably more often boys because they're taught more that violence is acceptable, and expected, for boys. Though I'd expect to see a girl involved in something like this soon.
Above-average intelligence because they're more likely to be independent, be themselves, instead of just following everyone else.
Often loners, or have small circle of friend who are outsiders.
The fact that they're often into things that are considered unpopular, and often not doing the necessary things to be popular (buying the "right" clothes, playing sports, especially the "right" sports). So they're usually forced to be outsiders, though some do it willingly, realizing how pitiful the popular crowd really is.
Experience unstable self-esteem.
Getting picked on, taunted, made fun of, etc, tends to create this. I'd be suprised to see an outsider without this problem.
Often fascinated by cults, Satanism, weapons, themes of violence and death.
My question here is: what is a "cult" or "Satanism" to the people judging this? My experience tells me that anything other than big mainstream religion would fit. Wiccan? Oh, you're in a "cult"/a "Satanist". Heck, an atheist would probably be lumped in here.
Experience a decline in schoolwork and marks.
Treated like crap at school? Then you're not going to like being there or anything associated with it, and less likely to do the work. And it never helps when it's busywork or things you know and have known for a while.
Come from dysfunctional homes.
What's NOT a dysfunctional home? The Cleavers?
Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use.
As someone else pointed out - it doesn't mean you're DOING the bullying.
Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism.
But what is "attention-seeking behavior"? Is flaunting the social norms this "evil" behavior? If you go to school with, say, blue hair, are you just doing it for attention and not because you just like it and it doesn't hurt anyone?
Not accept criticism? How many people do that very well?
I agree that this is a pretty good profile for the type of person more likely to have problems, and do bad things in school. What worries me is that they're most likely going to use it to identify the likely problem kids, and then treat those kids like they're the only part of the problem, while ignoring the intolerance, bigotry, ridicule, and bullying that CREATES people like this in the first place. They're not going to use it to find what the REAL problems are.
I just wonder if we're ever going to have people with clues in the important positions that can do things about stuff like this. Too bad we don't see geeks getting into things like politics, school administration, etc.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
As one who pretty much exactly matches the profile explained (I'm hoping the real list is *far* more detailed), I can personally attest that 99.998% of the people netted by this kind of testing are harmless, at least in the sense that most of them aren't exactly likely to assault their classmates with automatic weapons and home made pipe bombs.
What this type of profiling will isolate is people who tend to think differently. People who don't possess the type of herd-mentality preferred by the powers-that-be. People less likely to simply roll over and follow orders without thinking about it. People who actually *think* from time to time.
Safety, threat to the popular well being, has been the traditional excuse that the powers-that-be have used to take away freedoms, one piece at a time. The "evil spectre" of communism is gone. The arabs don't appear to be all that menacing of a threat any more. Those pesky Yugoslavians appear to have calmed down a bit. All they have left to make us afraid of is ourselves.
So... Here's the game plan for the impending Immanentization of the Eschaton.
Roughly speaking, it's as simple as that...
while(1){
print "I would rather be free than safe.\n";
}
Anthony
^X^X
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
"I think any time you expose vulnerabilities it's a good thing." -Attorney General Janet Reno
I'm not sure what to think about this - I mean, the FBI is probably right about the characteristics that a potentially violent student might have. Katz seems to be damning the program one sentence, then goes on to quote a school official with a lukewarm opinion about it (at worst).
To me, it seemss that the most important thing about this program is the school officials. The FBI doesn't seem to be saying anything here but to give a certain set of qualities to be on the lookout for. They aren't recommending courses of actions over-reactionary or otherwise. (I could be wrong - I've never heard anything about this outside of Katz's articles) The school officials are the ones that will choose between helping the "out of the mainstream" students by listening to their concerns, and choosing to alienate them even more by persecuting them. This program will probably not change anything - if a school has a bad set of officials, they will be quite able to screw things up whether the FBI helps them or not.
Comments Welcome!
bp
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woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
The principal quoted at the end of the article says "The kids we are all beginning to look at are those that play violent video games, who are on the Internet all the time..."
Where in the FBI guidelines does it mention video games or the Internet? It doesn't. Perhaps the FBI is slow to update its guidelines, or perhaps they just realize something about video games that the world hasn't quite grasped yet...
Mutilation and/or torture of small animals (frogs, etc.)
Pyromaniac tendencies (likes to play with fire and burn things)
Wet one's bed until an advanced age of childhood
Wonder how many /.ers that fit?
My point? Katz is kicking the bee's nest that is Slashdot to gather outrage. The fact of the matter is, this is not geeks he is talking about. He's talking about that bastard in highschool who collected knives and beat every kid around. He's talking about the guy who took it out on everyone else because his father beat the living shit out of him back home.
Sure, that can be some geeks. But it's not the profile of all geek. Where's the love for science? Where's the obsession for details?
Besides, it's ok to profile potential troublemakers. You indeed want to stop one kid from going to school and gunning down everyone, so the best way to go about this is to explain to teachers what's at stake; to give them an understanding that some people need support and help, and to be there for them if they need it, should they ask for it. What's wrong with that?
Trouble is, like I said, geeks are not the target here. And the geeks, who seem to suffer a major social stigmata while younger, go about their lives without help just because they don't kill everyone in sight. Well, not most of the times, anyway. We're just bullied, we don't bully others. We all dream of slaughtering someone at some point in our lives, but there's a nagging something that keeps us from doing it. As we grow up, we realise it's ethics.
"The wages of sin is death but so is the salary of virtue, and at least the evil get to go home early on Fridays."
from time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. perhaps its time again?
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth.
Now the real question is...
Now that these kids know that they are "potential terrorists," are they more likely to become terrorists? What if this "geek-profiling" was kept confidential?
Does anybody else think there is potential for self-fullfilling prophecy for those people who were borderline and would not become "bad" people to now move towards such a profile just because that's how they are labelled?
I personally do not fit into this profile, I do find myself spending hours infront of a computer though due to my great interest in technology and figuring things out, but I am interested to hear what others have to say.
um, these traits are characteristic of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. If I am to believe them correctly, they advocate discriminating against a LEARNING DISABLED student who is COVERED BY THE IDEA!!! I have seen schools have to pay millions to install concrete ramps, and have whole classes relocated to accomodate disabled students. Boy, I hope the FBI realizes this before they allow themselves to be sued by concerned parents. Call CHADD!!!!
Remember this...no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn....(jim morrison)
Hmmmm which crime first?
Powers&8^]
With all due respect to guidance cousnselors (my sister is one), it amazes me that most guidance counselors are teachers who wanted to do something besides teach. In other words, they are not trained counselors.
My wife is a social worker who would love to be a counselor, but you know what? She can't. The teachers union in our fair state is fighting tooth and nail to keep anyone without an education degree out of the schools. It's just ridiculous. I'm sorry, but my wife is FAR more qualified to do counseling for troubled kids than my sister. I think they need to separate out the eduational/career counseling from the "other" counseling.
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
On a few points:
...., and who don't participate in 'mainstream' school activities.
;>) tasks done that week because everyone was out of my hair.
"Your term 'geek profiling' is dead on," wrote one principal.
Since when does lack of participation deem someone a target? I knew alot of people who didn't enjoy the mainstream school activities when I was in highschool. I participated in a few (french honors, prom committies) but hte rest I found to be uninteresting. Most people know I'm a network admin for a Quality Assurance Lab. Recently Rational (a testing tool company) came in and did a week long course on their products. At the end everyone got certificates. I was the only person in the entire office who didn't attend (other than the boss). My boss asked me if I wanted to go and I flat out said that I had nor will I ever have any interest in manual, automated or regression testing. I told him that I see no link between it and my job other than the performance testing that users were doing on our LAN. He agreed and I got some work-related (slashdot
Schools nowadays have a ton of tasks to keep students busy but face it, there are going to be people who aren't going to be interested. Quite possibly they just want to get the whole thing out of the way and focus on learning so they can move on.
Or who are seriously disenchanted with school or the structure of school.
Let's face it, people who dislike school..simply dislike school. It doesn't make them irrational or insane. They just don't like it.
Have experience with chronic bullying...
Does this mean THEY do the bullying or are bullied themselves? This actually goes against what most of the slashdot community has been saying in the wake of the hellmouth series. Most of the people who fit this profile are usually BEING bullied.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
You see, this has nothing to do with profiling. It has nothing to do with geeks, per se. It has to do with keeping the status quo - and that is that the "normal" kids - jocks, preps, and hip dudes can do no wrong. If they do, they're "just kids" afterall, and "boys will be boys". But when somebody who isn't defined as "normal" by the community is targetted, they'll take any excuse to get rid of him, isolate him, or otherwise punish him for not subscribing to the social formula They have laid out.
Katz, you're close here - but you didn't hit the mark. There's a much bigger issue here, and one that cuts to the very core of the definition of what a society is. This is the politics of being different. It's hard, it's tough, and it's unfair. I could tell you volumes about my experiences in high school - it was basically a prequel to your hellmouth series. Bombs, scared kids, an outraged community, and a kid on the run. I had ATF agents *in my house*. It wasn't fun.
Believe me when I say this: This has nothing to do with geeks. Anyone who is different is a target in this (and most every) society. It is the biggest fight you'll ever be in - the fight to remain yourself.
btw I met all but 2 of them myself.
Good job I'm in Canada!
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
Well folks, I score 7.5/8 on that little test there, and to be fair I have always said that if I had been in a gun owning country Myself and possibly others would no longer be here. Simple. There are always going to be dysfunctional people in this dysfunctional society and although it is a noble cause to try and help them I do not beleive these test have helping those unfortuneant enough to be able to score highly in this test. As long as people can easily get hold of firearms there will be people who kill with them, purely through breaking down. You folks really need to sort this out. It's sad to say, but I think even the US- gun mad as it often seems to be to the outsider- is more likely to make weapronry harder to access rather than provide real and genuine help for these people.
J-aims
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Yo, whatever happened to peas? Join T( H)GS
I'll wager a significant proportion of slashdotterii fit this profile. I know I do and committed my share of violent, primarily self-destructive acts. But the key here is that the profile is being used to identify potential violent offenders, the better to react swiftly with the full force of the law as necessary. It would be naieve to imagine that the FBI, BCA, or ATF are profiling individuals for some "love."
I was a principal suspect in a pretty serious local crime based on the heresay of a "concerned" law enforcement official. The BCA interviewed my parents and girlfriend while I was in school. The up-shot: come home from school to find myself homeless, my girlfriend no longer permitted contact with me. They apprehended the responsible party a few weeks later, but I didn't get the girl back and an already tenuous relationship with my parents deteriorated further. I won't bore you with the details of the black decade which followed, suffice to say there is a big hole where my twenties should have been thanks to the intervention of "concerned" adults.
illegitimii non ingravare
Whew. Well, thank God that the FBI has a new screening test to tell us that nerds, geeks and goths are outcasts from mainstream society. Now we can accurately identify these dangerous individuals before they get a change to upset the balance of power in the schools. We can't have our jocks and preps feel uncomfortable while harrassing those who are different from them. I shudder to think of a world where nerds walk the halls in safety without being beaten or mocked. Why on Earth would some students feel the need to lash out? Why can't they just sit there and take the constant harrassment like everyone else? Oh, this world would just be so much easier if everyone who was different would just stop being individuals and conform.
I meet about 75% of that little test and am personally disgusted that we're spending so much time treating the symptoms of a larger problem. But, I'm not one of the "in" crowd, so I guess my objections are just unintelligent ramblings coming from someone who is unhappy with the status quo. I'm not saying that those kids aren't responsible for their action in any way, but we also need to realize that something pushed them to that point. It's just that no one want to look at the deeper causes because those deeper causes are sometimes the victims, and America's big bleeding heart prevents the media from even suggesting that those poor jocks could have something to do with it.
"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member" - Groucho Marx
Can't accept criticism? that's a new one to me -- but entirely true.
Bullied? Oh hell yes. Not for being smart, but aggresively and persistently harrassed for about a year and a half. To defend my best friend. Who promptly never spoke to me again. Fscker.
Nothing else to say except 'yes' to almost every single question.
Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism.
Well, the profile fits Katz at least. It might not catch potential murderers, but it may help us find and contain future "journalists".
I support Katz profiling!
In the past, I've volunteered with some programs for gifted children. Of course all children are gifted if you know them well enough, and every parent trying to get his kids into such programs knows his kid is gifted.
Very quickly we learned when we had a live, for real case of a G&T kid when you talked to a parent on the phone who was at the end of his or her rope -- the kid who'd aced the SATs as a sixth grader, had done original scientific, literary or engineering work, and was drifting aimlessly around middle school because there was nothing anyone there was teaching him.
It eventually dawned me that what we really mean when we say a kid is "gifted" is that he or she is a special needs case -- a euphemism we usually use to indicate there's something wrong with a kid. There are many bright students, but what really sets a G&T kid apart is that he can't be served by the standard curriculum.
Getting back to the FBI profile, I think it is fair to say that a kid who "meets the profile" given is probably not well served. In that sense, the profile is neither good nor bad; it is a tool. Ordinarily the key to such a tool would be what you do after you've selected out kids who meet the criteria. On the other hand, it seems pretty obvious to me that there is something extremely wrong if a school can't figure out on its wown that somebody should make it their business to get to know kids like this.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"a computer profiling system developed by the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (AFT) Division"
:)
I swear it used to be the ATF
Well one reason is that there is major legislation as far as the anti-gun crowd goes. I was watching a NRA informercial (yes it is biased but it illustrates the extreme of the point) and a group of Australians were talking about how they had basically lost almost all if not all of their gun rights. You probably haven't seen any guns in the hands of children because adults cannot get them easily and they don't have any spares to sell to children. If I pay $3,000 for a black market bee bee gun I will not give it to some kid to have it taken away from him and get me in the slammer.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
This thing reminds me of a list from the "Weekly World News" someone posted in their office window several years back, of "How to tell if someone is a space alien." The list included such warning signs as "seems out-of-place" and "uses objects inappropriately (e.g. trying to eat soup with a fork)".
I remember looking at that list and thinking I didn't know anyone I couldn't prove was from outer space based on that list, including myself and members of my immediate family (even the relatively normal ones).
Likewise, I think most of the people I would have voluntarily associated with in high school had at least a couple of these characteristics, not to mention half the people I work with now. I suppose it depends in some measure on how you define your terms. Are you going to say a kid is "fascinated by cults" because he's a Christian Scientist (yes, some people think they are a cult)? How about "interested in weapons" because he works out at a dojo after school? "Unstable self-esteem" sounds to me like as good a definition of being a high school student as any you could come up with.
OK, maybe the perpetrators of recent school violence fit this profile, but someone needs to run anyone using a profiler like this through an elementary course in set theory. Just because a few of the members of the intersection of SMART and DIFFERENT have decided to, um, take matters into their own hands doesn't mean that all, or most or even more than a statistically insignificant few, of the members of that particular intersection are going to do so.
I wonder if anyone has really looked at how likely people who fit this profile are to commit violence. I wouldn't be surprised to see a result similar to one found over a dozen years ago when someone decided to see whether role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons made kids more likely to commit suicide. Not only could they not find one single suicide that was directly attributable to roleplaying, they found that the suicide rate among gamers was actually less than for the control group! Someone should start looking into this. It might turn out after all that being a geek is good for you!
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Someone you trust is one of us.
Not just kindof scary... I cant believe this is happening. Except for being female (and that isnt a big except) I fit *all* the listed characteristics in highschool (and even now!), and so does my brother. Luckily I am now 24 and in the professional computer industry which (mostly) doesnt care about how you dress and what games you play (hell, Quake Tournaments are a Friday event for most of us programmers). But I have a step-sister and step-brother (yes I definitely did have a dysfunctional family and my mother finally divorced my father and is now happily remarried), and those step-siblings are still in HighSchool... I cant say how worried I am for them, for they take after my brother and I, they are always telling me stories about how they got suspended for wearing all black clothes to school or for having blue hair... I cant believe that this is happening without the public's permission! How are we just letting this slide? I dont want to have children in this kind of a society! (and I was kindof looking forward to bringing little geeks into this world...) =P
;)
*sigh* Someone remind me why I live in the US?
-=Kyriani=-
(i use a handle because people dont believe my real name
GeekProgrammerArtistGamerGrrrrrrl
Qui tacet consentit
I'm reminded of Arlo Guthries "Alices Restaurant", in which he discusses his military ambitions with an army selective service shrink.
"I wanna KILL!" he tells the shrink.
Looks like the "targets" of this profile will never actually confront anybody making the determination of their dangerousness. The teachers sit down with the list, and say "Oh, yeah, John X, and Billy Y..."
This is a very bizarre chapter in public education...
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"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
PS. On a side note was anyone else a little disapointed with the outcome of the X-files/Millenium cross over? I thought it was a rather ignoble end of Frank Black and what he did. Still I think he got off lucky. He would have been put in jail for being too "into" death and murder anyway.
It wasn't what I wanted, but then again, what I want is to be able to spend those Friday evenings with the lights off, the TV on, and being totally creeped out every week by Milennium - IMHO, one of the best TV series I've ever seen.
I guess I feel it was worth it just to see Frank Black again, to hear that creepy Millenium-music, to hear them talk about the Millenium Group, and to see that cute little girl on the screen again. I actually thought for a little bit they might give us ex-Millenium fans a early Christmas gift of wrapping up the loose-ends that the series wasn't able to (because of it's sudden ending). Nope, no such luck - answered absolutely nothing.
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"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
For Legs Good! Two Legs BAAAD! For Legs Goood! Two Legs BAAAAD! For Legs Gooood! Two Legs BAAAAAD!
maybe we'll reestablish the underground railway and move geeks up here in droves.
maybe this'll reverse the brain drain that's been going on.
Lots of jobs in Ottawa and Toronto I think.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
For Legs Good! Two Legs BAAAD!
For Legs Goood! Two Legs BAAAAD!
For Legs Gooood! Two Legs BAAAAAD!
If I were in high school today I'd already be locked in the boiler room. Its amazing that just two years ago things were very different for high schoolers. I remember being revered as a genius techno student because I could fix computers, search the Internet, and be a great student all at the same time. Now, I'd be the guy to watch out for. Teachers are really buckling under the pressure of administration that is just out of touch with today's children. I encourage all of you with children to become ACTIVELY involved in PTA or any other parental organization that will fight these biased and unethical standards. Even when I went to school, my rights ended at the school parking lot. Now its even worse, its time to bring education back and tell administration to just let teachers teach!
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
I don't think most teachers are to blame for this, and I don't think that's what Katz is implying here. I know that when I was in high school, the people primarily responsible for the things that made it a truly horrible experience for me were administrators, or teachers who were ultimately seeking administrative positions.
These are the ones who turn their backs to the hazing, who don't like students to be "too different", who want to run a nice happy little school with no troublemakers, even if that means messing up some truly bright kids for life. Often they get off on control, or have an obsessive desire to "mold minds" rather than teach.
My little sister is about to enter graduate school to become a high school teacher. She wants to do it for all the noble reasons: she loves learning, she loves the subject matter (English), and she wants to bring that out in students. She does not want to control people and run a petty tyranny five days a week.
I think almost everyone on slashdot agrees that teachers, in general, are not the problem. They're trying to work with what they have and they generally aren't in positions of authority. The administrators (principals, guidance counselors, etc.) are typically the ones who are to blame for things like this. There are some bad teachers, and some good administrators, but in general the nature of the jobs attract different types of people.
I think this whole thing stems down to fear and prejudice. The people who just don't understand geeks,gamers,goths, and technology are afraid of change. They are afraid of the way society is changing and that people have more outlets to express themselves. They are scared that youths now have access to a wealth of information and that the youths may use this information to think for themselves instead of thinking and saying what their teachers and parents want them to.
This fear is causing them to hunt the geeks down. Once they are found, they will be given counseling or blacklisted. It reminds me of the the witch hunts in Salem, and sometimes more like McCarthyism. I thought we were supposed to learn from history so that we didn't repeat the same mistakes.
I'm seriously considering moving out of the US before I have children.
Okay, I'm male, and graduated #6 of 400 or so.
I hung out in the computer lab at school, with kids mostly a year ahead of me, until my senior year, when I instead hung out in the print shop
You would, too, if your mother forced you to go to counseling ever since you were 11, because she wasn't taking the seperation well, and when my dad was there, I rememebr him telling my mom to shut the kids up, as he was trying to get work done.
I played AD&D, ShadowRun, BattleTech, WH40K.
Nope, never happened.
See the section on self-esteem.
Well, I wouldn't say it was chronic, but I did pick on a kid on our bus. And I didn't use grugs other than caffeine...although I did get annoyed with 'red ribbon week', when people were supposed to wear red ribbons to show they were drug free, and I came up with an alternate coloring system, to show what drugs you were on (birth control, caffeine, nicotine, pain killers, etc.)
Okay, so I heckled in class. So what? And I accepted criticism...although there was this one day junior year, when one of the ROTC kids in my class leaned over to me, and asked 'are you a loser?', and I grabbed him by the throat... then I started getting threats from a bunch of other ROTC pricks.
Which, as you can see, means that I said 'no' to a question, therefore, it doesn't apply to me, damnit.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I don't see the number of weapons available as the real problem, but rather the refusal to accept any responsibility for ones actions. The kids say it isn't my fault I was abuse or the football team picks on me. The parents point the finger at video games their kids play, movies they watch and the books they read.
Wake up people, noone makes you do anything and there are consiquences to your actions.
It is interesting that other high school student subcultures are not singled out, even though they may be more dangerous. I think the biggest cause of death for high-schoolers is plain old drunk driving, but the jock-cheerleader culture with its traditional keggers seems to be encouraged as promoting "school spirit". Not to mention teen pregnancy, also a traditional part of jock culture. Or "wannbe gangsta rappers" and their problems.
Maybe they should start encouraging geekiness! At least we're home and sober- and nobody ever got pregnant from Net-smut...
Yeah yeah, like it matters - but Columbine wasn't "last year", it was in April of this year.
Having a Y2K problem there Jon? =)
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
Pablo Nevares, "the freshmaker".
These words have been taken over by media popularization. We must no longer self identify as geeks or nerds. The personal danger is tangible. We are being profiled by the FBI. Criteria we should use for this new word: Above average intelligence. Above average online participation. Above average computer skills. Normal adolescent adjustment challenges. Let Geek/Nerd mean potentially violent/victim of abuse. Extreme alienation. Disgusting. VERY WEIRD. Ideas for this new term include: NetHead, Netwad, Netdude, Nede ( pronounced Need), Scint, torp. Whatever, stop using the term Geek/Nerd to describe us. It is now a package that includes the "murderer" meme. Once a term is packaged like this, it is very difficult to change.
I think what they're trying to do here is stop kids from being slaughtered by someone who's gone over the edge. In principle, this is an entirely sensible thing to do. Prevention is better than cure. You can't bring back the dead, but maybe you can stop them from being cannon-fodder in the first place.
Yes, they're going about it the wrong way. Yes, not all geeks are gun-toting nutcases (I've never held a real gun in my life, much less fired one), but they are trying to save lives. Complete freedom for everyone just leads to anarchy.
What we need to do is steer them in the right direction. If we get angry and start causing problems, it's only going to strengthen their belief that geeks should be crushed at the earliest opportunity.
I take it that this would probably nail anyone that LARP's (Live Action Role Playing), a favorite pastime of some nerds/geeks, as being potential high school killers.
I fit the profile above also, to the letter. I'm in my mid thirties and educated. I use a computer. Why am I anonymous? So I can ask questions without getting disappeared! Is it just me or does ANYONE ELSE have severe problems with the official version of events at Colombine? First a little self-disclosure. I'm a geek. Always have been, always will be. I was an "out-cast" in school, bullied, scape-goated, rejected, lied about, and all the rest of the baggage that goes with the territory of being a little too quiet and a little too opinionated. Sound familiar? Anyone else having flashbacks to high-school? I always knew I'd get out, get away, and HAVE FUN. That hope kept me alive. I was right. Life's a lot more fun now for a variety of reasons. However; I used to fantasize. Oh yes! I had wonderful vengence fantasies about getting revenge with those who abused me. I envisioned spilling the blood of those I had learned to hate. (Hatred does such ugly things to us). In such a vengence fantasy, I could picture walking right up to one of my potential targets and letting them see my smiling face, right before I wasted them! Yessiree. They would KNOW who was killing them. Is any revenge-fantasy different? What good is revenge if you can't relish the silent reproach of your enemies eyes? So, why wear a mask? Why wear a mask if suicide was part of the plan? Why target people at random? The gunmen went after "jocks" and "blacks" and girls who "believed in God". Strange... I would have had a name list. There's eyewitness reports that at least one of the gunmen was unmasked and WASN'T a student. How did two skinny teenagers manage an assault that would make a Navy Seal proud? How did the same two skinny teenagers manage to get ALL of those bombs into the school? Did they really manage to break-in the night before undetected, and the lock-up as they left, so that the next morning, no one noticed the intrusion? Black trenchcoats, masks, and fatigues, huh? You mean, like, FBI fatigues: the kind of baggy, black, leg-pocket pants that police and skate-punks like to wear? Early reports that day DID have the shooters "dressed like police". Then after all the choas and fun of killing, the two "gunmen" both killed themselves as planned, and were found together in the library. Yeah, right! I'm calling shit on this version of events. It looks to me like an event designed to do exactly what it did; Sway public hysteria and provide credence for genetically fingerprinting every teenager in the country, legislating conformist behavior, and "re-educating" those who express outlying views at an early age. Note to other "conspiracy buffs": They used the Oklahoma bombing for the same purpose: Create "fear of the internet", fear of gunowners, and justification for jack-boot tactics. I DON'T BELIEVE the single bomb theory, either. Single bomb theory, Single bullet theory: Same shit, different decade!
-The Government _owns_ your body...
Interesting opinions by the FBI.
I must say that they fit a large percentage of the geek population (including myself). However I disagree with them for several reasons. Many of the people that go and do shootings may have some of those characteristics but far more people with those characteristics do not do harm to the human race. People that are going to go off the deep end and pull a Columbine generally exhibit some other major warning characteristics - like posting a list of people they are going to kill somewhere or extreme depression. What the FBI should be spending its time doing is finding out how to catch people that don't exhibit those warning characteristics - like Ted Bundy for example. Geeks as a whole (generally) are not a threat to society even though they possess information that could harm society. The FBI needs to find a better use for its time I think. (If a geek conquered the world - wouldn't he make stupid people slaves rather than kill them anyway?)
Is it progress if a cannibal uses a fork?
>>go and see a psychiatrist if you really have problems.
oh, yes. good advice. or not. i did the psychiatrist thing back in 6th grade because my parents didn't know what else to do. i remember being stuck in a closet-like space with some freaky old lady asking me how i felt when the kids made fun of me for being smart...i didn't tell her that i felt like strangling her, because i was smart enough to know that that was the surest way of getting kicked out of school. instead, i nodded my way through those goddamned counseling sessions designed to "help" me and went on with my (geek) life. I will never, EVER recommend counseling to anybody. It was quite possibly one of the worst experiences i have ever had. I don't know if our lovely AC friend that told us to get help has ever seen a pshrink or not, but i'm guessing he hasn't. If he had, he wouldn't have posted "go and see a psychiatrist". That just doesn't cut it.
--baeta
They need to be shown that somebody who can do something gives a damn.
Actually, it's sufficient to be shown that anybody gives a damn - even if they can't do anything about it.
Of course, it's nicer if they can rescue you from your misery. But we geeks are made of stern stuff. We can tough out anything, so long as we have corroborating evidence of our premises: just one other person saying "You are worth fighting for" is all it takes to make a difference.
(And may this stand as an indictment: that there are clearly young men who have never once heard that message.)
Here is the one needful thing; if you find yourself in a situation with such an anguished young person, this is what you can say:
"What has been done to you is wrong. What is being done to you is wrong. It is wrong for anyone to hit you. It is wrong for you to have to live in fear of physical violence. It is wrong for you to feel hatred for yourself, and it is wrong for people to try to make you hate yourself. You are not crazy for being in pain. You do not deserve to be treated like this."
Those are the words no one ever says.
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-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I dont honestly see the point of Katz ranting about this administration-picking-on-the-geeks issue all the time. I am a somewhat recent graduate of one of the top ten public schools in the nation academically, which is a fairly liberal school, and I still got my fair share of harrassment from the administration while I was there. The fact is that if a student in the modern high school system goes against the grain, he/she will be noticed and addressed. My problem with the fascination that Katz seems to have with this issue is that this isnt anything new. I was harrassed much more in other schools that I attended 5-7 years ago.
t es frenzy, schools had to have some proof that they were doing something about it, and instead of changing the whole educational system (which is what I beleive would be necessary to fully address this issue), they just found new ways to advertise the things they had been doing all along.
These FBI Profiling systems and computer behavior tracking systems that everyone is excreting masonry about are just justification and proof for what has gone on in school for years. When Columbine happened and gathered the media into a protect-our-children-from-their-satanist-schoolma
Example from my school : In my Junior year (2 years ago, before columbine), there were two incidents where people were found on campus with guns, one of whom was not a student. The student body was not ever informed about these incidents by the administration, we found out about it in the newspaper about a month after they happened. In reaction to that, the administration decided to implement a policy that all students had to wear picture IDs at all times with their student number. This gathered a TON of media coverage and gave the parents a big warm fuzzy. We never wore them. Ever. Nothing at school changed, but it got the media off the administration's back. I get the feeling that these new methods are basically the same thing, a facade being put in place to placate the national media into thinking that the schools are wonderful places again, so that schools can just return to their normal level of discrimination.
Hmm.. I somehow get the feeling that if my old administration got their hands on this I would be pretty high on their little geek profile sheet.. hehe..
But to make my point, I think that Katz should realize that schools dont change, that policies like this are just smoke-and-mirrors techniques that all administrations use to cover up the fact that they will do whatever they want with their students. By stirring up more attention to this issue, he is just causing more pressure on the administration, which will most likely lead to that pressure being placed on the student body in some way or another, whether it be new tracking systems, ID cards or removing the internet's lewd prescence from the classroom. I think it is better left to the student body to forment change they think is appropriate from the inside. These student do have minds of their own, and if they are individual enough to be noticed, they are probably individual enough to stand up for themselves.
//Phizzy
"Most European technology just isn't worth our stealing," -- Former CIA chief James Woolsey, referring to Echelon
[sarcasm]Yeah. I heard that our Congress had to upgrade their webserver to handle the traffic. And a bunch of warez sites are worried about the loss of revenue due to people reading Walden rather than getting some free software.[/sarcasm]
Yes, I get your point...but those `good' things, like reading and doing homework are, well, boring - and most kids would gladly be playing games (which also stimulate their minds...just not in the same way) rather than doing anything like those things that you mentioned. Well, I know that's how *I* feel.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
I went back to my hometown of Schenectady, NY for Thanksgiving, and I read the local paper. The sunday edition (not online, sorry) has a commentary by a former superintendent of my high school talking about the 10 commandments and separation of church and state.
While he's abolutely against putting up the 10 commandments for a bunch of reasons, he's not against putting up rules of morality in school, which he admits are inspired by the 10 commandments, but are not religious in nature. Here's a few:
1) Be at school on time every day
2) Honor your mother and father
3) Don't curse or lie
4) Do your homework, by yourself, every day.
...and there were 6 others.
Now I can see the cynics out there saying "ya, but what will that do?". To be honest, I'm not sure. But there seems to be a big business in a store called "successories" which sells those posters you see plastered all over the office with the quirky sayings (you'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take). If business buys into that idea and it works, why not try it in schools?
-- Ever notice that fast-burning fuse looks exactly the same as slow-burning fuse? I didn't... (Edgar Montrose)
So, they are simply trying to identify people who represent a threat to their tyranny early on.
Perhaps next, they'll have some kind of symbol that geeks will have to wear.
We need a new amendment to the Constitution to seperate school and state.
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page.
"there's a fine line between bright and unhappy adolescents and mass-murderers"
Best thing I read all morning...
Your Working Boy,
This reminds me of an old movie/short film/thinly disguised propaganda piece (possibly an episode of Dragnet?) from the 1950's that ennumerated a similar list of traits. Back then the list ended with "...perfect for recruitment by the Communists." So, now we have a new enemy: Terrorism. Sounds like the same old root cause to me: fear of knowledge.
They fear the Net because it facilitates communication. (And that's all it is: millions of people talking and writing to each other, and leaving data behind for others to view later.) They know what happens when people who are dissatisfied (regardless of whether this is justified) talk to each other. So did the Founding Fathers, that's why we have the First Amendment (... the right of the people peaceably to assemble...)
Honestly guys, it's just statistics. I don't suppose that Mr. Katz would like to tell us just what other than behavioural characteristics are you going to use to spot people who are potentially violent?
just search in www.eurekalert.org, they have lots of articles on the chemical basis of add. it is mostly an imbalance in serotonin/dopamine receptors. The mutant d2 receptor binds dopamine less strongly than the 'normal' d2 receptor. Probably same for serotonin receptors. This is evident since the most useful drugs for treating add are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors(SSRI's prozac,zoloft,etc..) and Selective dopamine reuptake inhibitors--Ritalin.
Remember this...no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn....(jim morrison)
Am I the only one who wonders about the credibility of this entire story? The only corroborative source referenced is a story on a web site that's since been replaced, with the site providing access to back issues only by subscription.
I don't doubt that Mr. Katz received a number of e-mails, and perhaps the no-longer-present story would allay my concerns. But think of all the urban legend e-mails we've all received, like kidney thefts and mrs. fields cookie recipes. And they've been picked up by the occasional mainstream media source as well.
I'm not saying this is bogus, but it sure seems unusual. For example, has the FBI ever mass e-mailed public school principals before? Have they ever launched a huge direct-mail international information campaign without issuing a public press release or otherwise informing the public? Don't the criteria seem a little too conveniently broad-sweeping in their profile, like someone was trolling for outrage? "Boys of average or above average intelligence!?"
I still think it's an bad idea, because there are administrators who will try using it to do their thinking for them instead of using it as a tool.
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
Someone moderate the FBI down for spreading FUD
".. weapons, games with themes of violence and death?".
Pardon the clueless foreigner, but if you lose the words 'games' and 'with' don't you get the NRA? Just a thought.
M
timecawp is gay !!!
I tell you, I was just like this as I child and look at me -- I turned out just fine! This makes me so mad I oughta go bomb a government building just to show them! *grin*
(Echelon note: this IS a joke, but feel free to check me out anyway. Email me for a social security number. *cackle*)
SL33ZE, MCSD
em: joedipshit@hotmail.com
SL33ZE - Artificial Intelligence is No Match For Natural Stupidity -
This is just plain silly. I was hoping for a fun, simple test like The Geek Test, but no, it was a Katz article. :)
;)
I'm so glad I'm out of public school. Now I can hear about this stuff, but at least I don't have to do it again. Of course I was a nerd, dude, we're all on slashdot...
However, I don't know about some of this stuff: I'm pretty outgoing, at least within my "band of outcasts", never really ran into drugs and don't do any of the illegal ones personally, and if I got bullied it was for being smart or ignoring stupid people (I was usually reading...).
So how are we dangerous, again? That's the implication Katz wants us to see, and I think some schools or "educators" might be dumb enough to think that, but why would the FBI think that? They're a bunch of dangerous nerds too, and they should know that you can't prepare for terrorism, and you generally can't identify terrorists beforehand... They're just disgruntled people, and you don't have to be a nerd to get like that: you could be a (non-nerdy) postal worker, say...
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Just why I yanked my kid out of school!
He is brilliant and I'm not going to let them
screw him up!
Look at it this way. He can have a High School
diploma in 5 years or an Associates Degree in
5 years. Which will be worth more?
I met all the requirements!! I can see it now... Hidden government lab in a remote jungle that contain the bone chilling, blood thirsty, potentially UNSTABLE...... GEEK!!! Rows of metal cages (lined with winter white walls and dilbert cartoons)containing numerous flavors of the mysterious GEEK. Studies have shown that like some of the other animals of the wild the GEEK displays its dominance over the other GEEKS it a mock fight they call QUAKE I/II/III. Note that no one really gets hurt in these fights, but once in awhile after a frustrating dual for the top seat u might hear the victor exclaim "Beeeaauuchh!!!!" ;]
The problem with trying to over-generalize any sort of profile is that it becomes extremely vague and all-encompassing. This is true in absolutely all cases. :)
According to a recent article on CNN [sorry, can't find link], only 25% of families or so are 'traditional'. The rest are divorced, single-parent, on-welfare, both-parents-working, insert-your-favorite-dysfunction-here type of family. This makes the probability of coming from a 'dysfunctional' family pretty large, and throws the whole definition of 'average' and 'normal' out the window.
Lumping things such as Satanism in with violent video games leads to trouble. Quake is great. But, since the FBI mentions it in the same breath as devil worship, it must be related, right?
The profile fits almost all teenagers. Those it excludes are the abnormal ones.
Trouble with authority?
Isn't that what being a teen is all about? Questioning authority and establishing yourself as being competent enough to take charge of your own life? The alternative is a world of sheeple. Kids are encouraged to 'assert their individuality', 'express themselves', 'think independently'... But only within the predefined constraints set by authority figures... Sure road to frustration.
Unstable self-esteem?
Ummm... "I'm the coolest person ever, but I have a zit!!! The world is over!" Again, nothing more 'teen' than being overly self-conscious.
Predominantly male? Aggressive tendencies?
Well, who else would tend to be a discipline problem, if not a person flooded with testosterone for the first time in 15 years?
Above average intellect?
A person capable of independent thought at a young age? "Not in MY classroom, Mister!" Last thing that authority wantes (academics especially) is to have their hypocricy and lazy tenured-mentality exposed in front of kids. I've had plenty of teachers (HS and U) who would mark perfectly good answers as wrong, if they differed with their perspective. The message? "If you don't see the world MY WAY, you're wrong!"
While a consuming fascination with weapons and death can't possibly be healthy (IMHO), weapons are pretty interesting. No other thing in history has utilized as much thought. We, as a race, have put more effort into finding new ways of killing each other than into anything else - except maybe religion. Being overly religious is sure to get you profiled as well, but at least then the ACLU will back you up. But, as long as we're profiling people based on their interest in weapons and killing - we should lock up the whole of the DoD. After all, if someone in there cracks... "Mein Furher! I can valk!"
It's only right that a ripening mind would question and take interest in such a social paradox. In fact, bringing this state of affaris into focus is the very point of most civics courses. Questioning that which is wrong in the world is an obligation of all people who are 'coming of age'. We MUST question and contemplate things such as weapons of mass destruction, the abomination of the Holocaust, genocide in general, hate, prejudice and violence; and what these things mean in our world. We MUST encourage the youth to consider these things, lest they experience them first-hand, and not on the pages of a history book.
To label someone as a deviant because they try to figure things out... The Original Sin comes to mind.
We also have to stop and consider the source of the profile. The FBI. The self-appointed shepherds of American society. The directors of the FBI became professionals - and had their world-view solidified - in the years of the 'red scare'. They've taken on the responsibility for the American way of life (tm) and are determined to see everyone live behind a white picket fence. If we don't want to, we're obviously deviants. We need to have our trash rooted through in search of incriminating evidence. It's for our own good. After all, we're in the same demographic profile as Tim McVeigh and Geoffrey Dahmer.
Think. Vote.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
But I do have a problem with the profiling. Why? Because it shows right off what we've known all along.. They Don't Understand. Every time I hear about this subject (in general) I don't see, "There's a problem here... all these wonderful, talented, and brilliant people are not living up to their potential and maybe it's a real problem." It's all about how geeks are dangerous and need to be controlled. You can't help someone if you don't understand what they're going through. Hanging around IRC, I tend to be the old one of the bunch (19) and even so it's difficult to make my friends (both male and female, as I know plenty of girls who fit the profile) understand that I was THERE. Just a few short years ago, I was THERE. But you know? There's life beyond high school. Plenty of it, too.
Bottom line? If this was something that would be used responsibly to help, then I'd be for it. But as a way to isolate potentially dangerous people (who, of course, are dangerous because of it)... it just makes me sad.
Maybe a definition of sociopath is called for here: we might find that an erudite and interesting member of society is already a sociopath, on account of perhaps stopping to think every now and then and *gasp* speaking their mind unto others, thus relieving them of their blissful ignorance...
Cheers,
JM
Slashdotters, hear me out:
.signature. Hold protests.
What Jon is reporting here today strikes me as completely insane. Far from the normal drivel of laws and regulations put out by our society, this particular "program" is designed (even if this is unintentional) to conform us to what is "normal."
This is the design of the entire program. If you're scared to death of being smart, of knowing what you're doing on the computer, of playing the games that relieve so much tension built up thoughout the day, then you must conform. There is no other option. If you're not smart, you will become "average" in intelligence (or at least appear that way). If you don't know what you're doing on the computer, you will only be average at it. If you don't play computer games, you'll have to play other sports all the time like everyone else. In short, you will become the norm.
Technically, though, how are geeks different from the much-celebrated "jocks" and cheerleaders in our society? Both groups are relentlessly dedicated to one particular thing (be it computers, sports and girls, or guys and makeup). Both groups spend large amounts of time working at their particular field of intrest (again, computers, sports and girls, or guys and makeup). Why, psychologically, do we as a culture shun one group and exult the other? The answer is simple, if you look hard enough past the propaganda.
Geeks are a threat. People are scared of us. We can do things that they can't do; that they can't control. In their minds, everyone who plays Quake has the plans for an atomic bomb and is just waiting for a chance to use it. In their minds, everyone who can program or use the internet well is someone who can change their lives; delete their records and make sure that they never existed. These people think that being smart should be a crime, because it allows geeks to break free of the cultural bonds that bind them.
This is why we must take action.
The internet is the one last stand for the geeks. This is where we can say what we want. This is where we can express ourselves to the fullest extent without fear of retribution or ridicule. We can speak our minds, reach for the future, and declare, freely, that 2 + 2 does indeed equal 4. But they're trying to take it away from us.
If the school counselors get us; if our parents decide that we should be off the computer permanantly, this last stand will dissolve almost overnight. The internet will be taken over for the uses of the media and the government, just like everything else in this country. Your news for nerds will be the news they want you to hear, and if you think that you'll be able to reply you're in a dreamworld. Will you find any sites like the EFF? I'd doubt it. When they have rwxrwxrwx access to all the files on every server, pages that proclaim our right to free speech will at best be deleted, and at worst modified.
Does the above paragraph seem farfetched? It shouldn't. It's only a few steps away, once we geeks are taken off of the computer systems. Remember, the mass media will report only the news that it gets, and if the only news that it gets is that Mosaic 2000 is going to help reduce school shootings, that's all it's going to report. Because, obviously, we would never be so dangerous if we didn't have access to the internet. The nightly news isn't going to tell us about our encryption abilities being taken away from us. We'll just have to sit back, relax, and watch the telescreen... er... television...
This is not the future I want to live in, and I'd bet that most of you don't want to live there, either. But what can we do? Older geeks, I beseech you. Do what we minors can't. Vote responsibly for people who are against this thing. Tell your senators what you feel as a tax-paying citizen. Speak out at school board meetings.
Geeks like me -- any age under 18 -- FIGHT THIS! Talk about it in school. Mention it to your friends.
Everyone, geeks old or new, can do other things. Write letters to the editor. Put messages about Mosaic 2000 and similar programs in your
If we work together, we can stop this kind of action now, instead of when its too late. For if we fail, in the end, we will be just as helpless as Orwell's protagonist to resist; for once ignorance is strength and 2 + 2 = 5, we have no hope. Our only possibility will be to sit back, relax, drink some Victory Gin, and let the telescreen lull us to sleep. But somehow, I know that there is the spirit of the fighter in some of us. We will stop this thing, and not only will we have stopped it, but we will have assured ourselves a place where bounds are endless and where we are truly free.
There is a widening gap between us nerds and the rest of society. Pardon my attitude, but dull normal and uncreative minds respond well to regimentation and brainwashing, while the rest of us do not. Attempting to arbitrarily force kids who are on a par intellectually with most adults to "march in step" with dullards their own age, to "socialize" them, is a very bad idea. The sooner this is recognised, the sooner we as a society can stop punishing the next generation's engineers, programmers, scientists, and artists for being-- and again, pardon my attitude-- better than their peers.
Until then, it will be considered necessary to administer High School facilities as prisons. And inside these prisons, (quoting RAH from memory), "Dye a monkey pink and the rest of the monkeys will tear him to pieces."
I guess according to this "test", I *should* have blown up my entire high school in 11th grade. Of course I never got around to it. I feel like such a loser now.
Can I do it now and tell them the FBI sent me?
Sheesh, no offense, but sometimes, it amazes me, how the United States can combine such a high level of arrogance with such an obviously below-average intelligence.
Then again, maybe the two are really defaults for each other.
Welcome to the United States, Sir... you're now in what is the moral leader of the Free World.
'You govern a kingdom by normal rules; You fight a war by exceptional moves; But you win the world by letting alone, How do I know that this is so? By what is within me! The more taboo and inhibitions there are in the world, The poorer the people become. The sharper the weapons the people posses, The greater confusion reigns in the realm. The more clever and crafty the men, The oftener strange things happen. The more articulate the laws and ordinances, The more robbers and thieves arise.' (Tao Teh Ching #57, Lao Tzu)
I don't think it takes a whole lot of insight here to realize that yes, most of the people who fit this profile aren't really psychologically healthy. What geek would be? Society in general is apparently trying to subvert any attempts to stray from the mainstream (while simultaneously paying millions for VanGogh & Dali paintings). Many intelligent people learn how to do to minimum to get along without notice in first grade. Then comes the concern when their unchallenged school career creates a host of "bizarre" side interests.
This viewpoint isn't all that extreme-- the problem, I think, is in the blame. The "institution" (FBI, schools, etc) seem to think that the kids, and their behavior, are the problem to be fixed. I think that a very, very small portion of the population is disturbed to the point where they would naturally attack society without provocation, and most of these aren't really capable of functioning in normal society.
As a group of perpetially bullied, no one here doubts the fact that it's society that inevitably awakes this sort of hatred to begin with. Look at what Amphigory wrote, look at your own experience. Most people here (70-80-90%? 95%?) that felt "outcast" would have no problem whatsoever with the rest of society if it hadn't been entirely antagonistic to them. What would there be to attack? Kindness?
We're not talking about people who aren't intelligent, who can't handle the demands of what society claims to be (9-5 job, etc). It's the constant oppression from classmates, teachers, parents, etc, who never bothered to "accept" people unlike them.
So what do you do to fix this problem? NOW. We can't change the underlying problem overnight, and we need some mechanism to recognize those that need help. Though I was straightedge in high school, I didn't act it-- I had teachers suggest drug counciling. Yes, I fit the profile (minus the hatred of the preps/jocks, but I had a pretty tame suburban schooling). Yes, at some point I was manic and suicidal. Yes, I played with making explosives at home. Yes, I studied the occult (I did a verbal report on satanism in the 11th grade- just to push the envelope). Did I need help? I don't think so, but I knew people who did, who probably acted more tame in school. People who were later charged with various crimes.
Basically, I don't see the problem with teachers (or whoever) identifying people with these characteristics. Face it-- many of them (us) are the ones who cause serious problems, mainly because we're generally pretty damn clever, the lot of us. Intelligence and a mischievious nature cause ten times the trouble. People who can't read aren't going to be building too many bombs.
The really scary part is what people do with this profile. Look at what Rodentia wrote. This greatly disturbs me, especially as the father of a happy 2.5 year old daughter (yes, we do end up somewhat normal, but I'm still dying my hair blue tomorrow... ;) What do you suggest we do with these people?
I remember being in high school, thinking what crap it was that people always thought the geeks were mentally unfit. After growing up and meeting a wider range of people, I realized that yes, we were fairly disturbed.
Personally, I am awed by some of the postings here, especially the personal experiences. Intelligence and a slightly unstable foundation (brain chemistry, home stress, bullying) seem to lead to remarkably eloquent miscreants. I like the results, but I hate the cause.
What constitutes a "fascination" with Satanism?
Being a cult member?
Reading a book on it?
Disagreeing with the Bible?
Disagreeing with the personal opinions of a devout Christian? (remember Salem?, how about the Inquisition?)
Playing a game dubbed Satanic by someone else?
Where does it end? Where does it begin? Many educators will have varying definitions and guidelines for this list. It will be abused and used as a tool in supplicating students. Angry parents will come into shool demanding answers. The principal will wave the FBI's checklist in front of their faces "It was to pretect the students.", they will say. Just watch. (or do something about it)
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
It seems to me that these "profiles" will be useful beyond high school. I don't know a whole lot about psychological profiles, but this one would appear more likely to raise a flag on anyone that might fight back responsibly--the kids today who are going to be smart enough and mad enough to try to affect a change on society and/or government. If we didn't live in a free country, this would be a great way for a government to get a profile of everyone that might become a potential "enemy of the state."
If they really wanted to create a profile to detect where problems in schools will occur, wouldn't it be the schools themselves that they'd be profiling? Why aren't they profiling the administrators? How they respond to problems? How they respond to kids that don't fit the norm? Where do they lay blame for various problems in their school? This is the kind of profiling that SHOULD be being done!
numb
I'd have to say the stupid people and the rich people are finally realizing that the smart minority are a socio-economic threat to their respective lifestyles and have decided to put an end to the rise of the new intelligentia before we dominate completely.
;)
IFF I were the PARANOID type.
If what I said is nonsense,
I'm making a point with it.
If what I said makes perfect sense,
you obviously missed the point.
What the hell kind of definition of "above average intelligence" would ever include Jon Katz? Maybe he's not so much of a threat as he thinks. Parts of this article read like a feeble rehash of that most honored and enobled inane document, The Hacker's Manifesto. Also, either the FBI has it wrong, or Jon Katz is 'reporting' it wrong, because the prevailing trait that most self-proclaimed "geeks" have in common isn't above average intelligence, but instead boundless arrogance and an unchecked sense of righteous self-importance.
I'm not disagreeing with your main point, Jon-- the geek profiling is bullshit. I don't think administrators are out to get us geeks, but I think that severely misguided principals will wind up inadvertently fucking up a lot of kids this way.
:-)
But let's see why the profile fits so well with most geeks:
Klebold and Harris were both computer whiz-kids that also excelled in math and foreign languages (hence all the emphasis on speaking German). The "Trenchcoat Mafia" was nothing more than a group of unpopular kids that would hang out together. Klebold and Harris spoke frequently of guns, death, violence, etc. The two were very much anti-authority. I don't know about family life... But they fit the profile pretty well.
Kip Kinkle was very much involved in guns. He also was an honor student, and unpopular (jokingly said to have been voted "most likely to start world war three"). He had a lot of resentment for authority, though he voiced his anger and outrage to those closest to him. He fit the profile pretty well.
How about the Jonesboro shooters? A little more difficult-- these kids were 11 and 13. But they were both fascinated with guns and death. They both did well enough in school. And they were described as kids that nobody really even paid attention to-- nothing remarkable, but they certainly weren't popular. They don't fit perfectly, but they do hit some of the points on the FBI profile.
Or how about Matt Myers? Killed Chris Eggleston in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Fascinated with murder and death. Trouble with the law. Nasty custody battle, wound up living with his grandparents. Part of a group of social outsiders known as the "Vampires". Fucking scary bright. He fits the profile perfectly.
Taking a purely scientific view of the above data, we see the following:
*The data presented is hardly enough to be statistically relevant. Bias in any one of the above cases is enough to invalidate the results entirely.
*The data above is incomplete. How many other cases of a similar nature are there? What are the details of those cases?
*Assuming that the data is unbiased and representative of the entire population, we still have nothing more that a statistical correlation. And even then, we are unable to determine the strength of this relationship.
*Playing devil's advocate, we can say that the relationship is a strong relationship-- 90% or more of the killers fit the profile. This still doesn't imply causation. There are a number of other factors that might enter into the picture-- acting as if A implies B (especially on such a small set of data) is not only scientifically unsound, but foolish.
So I guess you can say that the profile may have *some* statistical relevance; but it has very little scientific relevance.
Then again, scientists probably fit the profiles themselves
Just my $0.02
OK, so we pretty much all seem to agree that things can really, really suck for young geeks.
I suspect everyone here would agree that intervention is desirable, as amphigory neatly describes.
I suspect we largely agree with the sentiment (expressed in another thread) that the intervention which the current system is prepared to do ranges from "inept" to "violation of human rights".
Well, that's because the intervention is done by normals. They're never going to get how to help a geek in distress, because (a) they have never been through it and lack the empathy necessary for problem solving and (b) they are unaware of some of the issues peculiar to geeks (list available on request; my profile is better than the FBI's :).
So the question before us is: So, should we, collectively and individually, be Doing Something?
I'm a geek, right. I don't have any particular warm fuzzy feeling about social-program volunteering, and I don't suspect any other geek does. HOWEVER:
If we don't help, aren't we part of the problem: an indifferent world that leaves these kids to rot in their misery?
What I'm envisioning is an organization much like Big Brother/Big Sister -- only run by and for geeks. A sort of "Big Geek" service.
A couple of notes on the idea:
Would people actually participate in something like this?
----------------------------------------------
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
There was a comment made re: lower violence among kids in Canada? Non-existent? I say bullocks to that!!! In Toronto, there was a swarming that killed a 15 year old boy who was sticking up for his friends. And a girl just got gang raped by 6 guys on Victoria Park Ave. last Friday. I really don't feel like why I think kids are acting the way they are these days... I'm at work right now and don't have 2-3 hours to rant and rave...
Nah, just transfer them to the new maximum security school next to the old industrial park. You see, these smart kids are disillusioned and angry because they've been oppressed and bullied by peers, teachers, and administrators since elementary school. So obviously the answer is to oppress them some more, until their spirit is properly broken. Then they'll behave like proper social units.
I love the language used in the profile: does the student "have experience with chronic bullying?" Such lovely doubletalk -- they're not hunting for the INFLICTERS of arbitrary violence (who will grow up to be vice principals or middle managers). Mosaic wants to proactively punish the VICTIMS, before they retaliate. TheOnion did a fabulous satire on this topic
Somebody mark this up.
"What has been done to you is wrong. What is being done to you is wrong. It is wrong for anyone to hit you. It is wrong for you to have to live in fear of physical violence. It is wrong for you to feel hatred for yourself, and it is wrong for people to try to make you hate yourself. You are not crazy for being in pain. You do not deserve to be treated like this."
_______________________________
It would have to be the writings of those wild-eyed radicals Jefferson, Franklin and Madison. When you read their hopes and fears for what they were building, you finally start to realize how far we've fallen and how badly we've been ripped off.
Try browsing the Federalist Papers sometime to get a taste of what "they" DO NOT want you to read.
Usually boys of moderate to below moderate intelligence.- ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ -----------------
-----------------------------------------------
Exhibit strong feelings of love towards activities that promote misogynistic, machismo behaviors through ritualized violence; eg football, hockey.
-----------------------------------------------
Blindly follow the conservative social code of the day with little question to it's philosophical basis and ramifications.
-----------------------------------------------
Believes that when girls say no, they mean yes.
-----------------------------------------------
Has bullied those who exist outside the mainstream; mocking them for their non-compliance with established social behavior and dress codes.
-----------------------------------------------
Loves to hunt and kill small, defenseless animals.
-----------------------------------------------
Has called numerous "geeks" fags or homo's, followed by some sort of homo-erotic ritual with their friends that involves high-fiving or butt slapping.
-----------------------------------------------
Has been known to make claims of "boning bitches" in the locker room.
-----------------------------------------------
Has no qualms mocking minorities while bobbing their head to the latest Puff Daddy CD.
Who is more dangerous?
the sinister mister earache.
This is normal by standards, local "educators" are using.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I question the veracity of the above comment. It sounds like a testimonial, and the author's home page link is to a church home page. Plus there is the comment about prefering chaplains to guidance counselers. All together, it seems to forward the agenda characterized by these cartoons.
If Amphigory really did experience the so-called "hellmouth", I apologize, but please remember that religious intolerance was a pretty big part of it for most of us. I would consider being forced to see a chaplain much more insulting than any sort of geek profiling test.
I remember my last year of school (not my senior year, since I quit and took the GED exam). I had ended up in this class called "Intrapersonal Communication" or some such. Basically it was a class where we "shared our feelings with the group."
There were about 20 people in the class and toward the end of the year, we each had to sit there while the teacher went around the circle and let each and every person comment on what they thought of us. Everyone pretty much got rave reviews... until it was my turn.
I had to sit there and listen to about 20 people tell me how many different ways I sucked. I couldn't get up and leave, I couldn't tell them to piss off, I had to just sit there and take it... 20 times.
This was just the cherry on top of the "dysfunctional home," the "bullying," etc. and that particular teacher said I had problems and I couldn't accept criticism when I left the class telling them they could all "f$%k off."
That was the last day I ever attended high school. Some people just need to get a clue. How much abuse do they expect kids to take? This profiling just serves to further isolate them.
From what I've seen and heard from the mainstream media the Columbine kids were teased and bullied mercilessly. In a lot of places the conclusion has been drawn (correctly I fear) that people who are bullied are more likely to blow up and strike out in surprising ways than others (including the bullies I guess since they have an outlet for their aggression).
OK so from what is happening now not only do kids have to worry about getting their asses kicked by bullies or being marginalized by the mainstream student body but also as a reward they get to be picked on by the school authorities for being picked on by their fellow students. Way to go FBI.
Just out of curiosity, if the school can identify those being bullied is it too much to ask that they step in to stop the bullying instead of attacking the victim thereby increasing the likelihood that the victim will feel marginalized, angry and violent. I know I would...
Bad Command Or File Name
Everyone Loves a good witch hunt. Lets target the kids that are smart enough to figure out that all they teach you at school is to be a good worker.
Now I guess that public schools will need more money. How else can they combat this threat?
A note to All the kids that fit this description:
The system has failed you, Don't fail yourself.
(any one see the Billy Bragg references?)
Last one in jail is a fascist.
Bill Gates, the person whose life experiences were cataloged by the FBI to simplify the codification of "the list"
Don't we all wish he actually *had* done something bad enough to get locked away before he made enough money to be able to
buy himself a country?
crush Apple?
crush Mozilla?
created a de facto monopoly with the wherewithal to survive as a monopoly, even with an extremely negative finding of fact against it?
Your complaints about being offended offend me.
painfully accurate.
I'll be blunt. Yes, that's me. 100%. I was bullied, I had a very small circle of friends who shared similar interests. I am a proud practicioner of an occult religion and rather proud to state that I am familiar with religions ranging from Catholic Christianity to semi-modern Druidic beliefs. My parents and I frequently fought, and still do. My self-esteem is sometimes unstable, yes. I'm of above average intelligence (Mensa, anyone?). I didn't graduate from High School - I couldn't have because of a lack of credits. The only thing I don't match is the total refusal of criticism.
Yes, I contemplated killing people. Who hasn't? But I didn't. Why not? Because I knew that that would only bring me to their level, and I was above that.
The problem is not finding these students. That's just a pathetic excuse to violate our privacy and eliminate trust. What needs to be done is to stop the students that would CREATE these people. We're going to live in a neverending cycle of difficulties and problems so long as bullying and harassment is ENCOURAGED by school officials (don't try and tell me it's not - it very much is. All teasing and bullying is always the victim's fault.) and those students are not only permitted, but urged to continue their absolutely deplorable behaviour.
The people in charge need to shut the hell up for once, and listen to the victims, instead of creating new ones. I don't know about any of you, but if I ever have children, I will be damn good and sure to ensure that they do not have to deal with 'Mosaic2000' in any way shape or form. That's a blatant, outright violation of human rights, privacy, and a perversion of so-called preventative law enforcement.
I'm seriously considering organizing a protest against Mosaic 2000. If you'd like to help out, please, drop me an email at prj@adelphia.net.
--RISCy Business
your company here.
shelby != ford
Since I grew up in a rural area many decades ago, I could have given, by the age of 16 or so, heartily positive responses to a number of additional questions such as: .50 Browning machine gun rounds on car bodies, engine blocks, and old refrigerators?
Have you ever used high explosives for recreational purposes?
Have you ever taken more than one gun to school? or two knives?
Can you detail, from experience, the effects of
Were you the one who carved the words "Lisa practices on telephone poles" into a table in the library?
And here I thought I was a normal kid. I wonder what they'd do with me today?
I'm with you. I'm the first generation programmer in my family but I fit most of these characteristics. I'll be teaching my kids that too question anything they don't find right including authority and if they get in trouble for it I'll stand behind them 100%. My son is only two but he already knows how to use a mouse better than a lot of my family and knows how to put cds in and such. Does this mean he will become a murderer?
If I ever find out that this sort of profiling is done to my children, it won't be my kids they have to be concerned about, it will be the big fat lawsuit coming their way.
The problem with the school system is there is no outlet for these children. Jocks get their football fields, pep rallies, and can get away with just about anything while the above average intelligent kid gets profiled. Instead of spending money for new lights for the football field maybe funnel a little money to the academic programs that these kids might join.
And make it so teachers can't coach and make all extra curricular activities city/town related instaed of school related... this would definitely cut down on favoritism.
Lets get start profiling people based on whether they are left, right or both handed. I'm willing to bet that there are more right handed psychopaths so lets start by targeting them.
especially if they were paranoid to begin with.
I could just see an FBI agent making note in his pad that a suspect had a copy of Walden in his backpack.
His ideas mightn't fit with what many people consider a normal productive life. Anything other is suspect.
a lovely book.
BTW I scored 7/8 on the test.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
It's nice to know that I do not fit in a predefined mold that the FBI has made. Maybe they can round up all of us geeks and put us in camps to protect the general public. Oh wait that story has already happened. Or maybe the government can try some mind altering drugs on us so we will stop what we are doing. Oh wait that too has been done before. I have been doing this type of lifestyle for many a years and have I killed anyone? No. We should tell the government to leave us alone. The Lopez
Well it looks like those of us who already made it out of the system with the ability to program without having to go to jail for our individuality will have better job security. If they cut off the bright people when they begin to become smart then we won't have to worry about a young hacker coming to steal our jobs for cheaper because there won't be any. They will all be in jail.
Of course once we die so does our field, but why worry? We'll be dead!
(Actually I know how much this sux so don't flame me please... just being practical if not cynical)
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
How interesting they actually have a police show (similar to COPS) about Canada's criminals. I guess all those "non-violent" criminals are just a figment of my imagination?
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
slashandmaimdot -- news for potential criminals, stuff that matters
--
dosen't this sond like a type cast of the INTx personalitys (according to the MBTI)?
:).
Above Avreage intellegence? Yup, were smart.
Loners or anti-social? Yeah, I fit that.
Low self-esteem? Heck yeah, almost all NT's (s/INTJ's) experence this.
Satanism, Weapons, whatever? Ok, so all INT's might not fit this, but I assume my fasination with bombs (not for killing, I just like to see the explosions (:) would count.
Decline in schoolwork? Or maybe just an under-achiever (sp?)? Yeah, I fit that (again, J's might not, but....).
Dysfunctional families? Not me, but I know many INTx friends that this would apply to.
Attention seeking behavior? Ok, so most INT's don't do this.
Don't accept critism? Yeah, we'll take it, but we still don't like to be critized.
Bullied? See Issac Newton (INTP). I would be, except for the fact that I'm homeschooled
Resent Authority? Oh, come oh, do you really want to know how many times I've proved my Science teacher wrong (note: not my Mom, I take a class elsewhere)? Authority is the way incompetent people run the world. (btw - this is a yes, I do resent authority, and so do almost all INTx's)
In conclution, Hmmm....I (an INTX) score 8/10, I guess I pass. I just don't think it's right to attack a presonailty type like this? If we don't challenge the status-quo nothing will change. Be yourself, this is the best defence you have - point to the other 4 million INTx's in america and ask how many have ever shot up their school. See how many pass the test. Interesting.....
--Justin Mitchell
"2nd Place is a fancy word for losing" --Bender (Futurama)
Fed gov does all, sees all, knows all, no limits to its power.
Where in the Constitution is the authorization for the FBI? Or any other fed police force, of which we have about 70?
Lew
"The Constitution, the WHOLE Constitution, and nothing but the CONSTITUTION."
POTENTIALLY
DANGEROUS
Take it a step further, just for kicks. On the back:
MOSTLY
HARMLESS
Of course the HHGttG will be lost on most people, but it's fun.
Ironically if all you have is an education degree, you are probably not qualified to teach either, but that doesn't stop the teachers unions...
I don't know what the true motivations of the teachers unions are, but they act as if their motivations are to keep their standards so low that any semi-literate fool can become a teacher (much to the dismay of the dedicated and compentant teacher that are out there I would imagine) and keep the children ignornat and pliable to their political manipulations.
My kids attend private school...
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I don't think guns are the problem myself.
I think the problem is simply that our society
has some fundamental problems. Access to guns does
not help the issue...but neither does the fact
that children are almost never taught gun saftey
at an early age.
Look at our society though. Its so full of
contradictions and unhealthy attitudes that
I am surprized things are not worst than they
are.
Men are never suposed to show their emotions (for
the most part). A guy who cries is a wimp. If a
person is gay, in many housholds he had better not
admit that, he can expect to be made to feel
guilty and sorry for that, even be physically
beat.
We have many households with single parents or
parents who are expected to work long hours at
work and have little time for a fammily life.
Now, I am not one to argue that TV is bad. I do
not think that TV MAKES people violent, however,
Television is not a parent. This is not to say
that parents need to regulate what children
watch but...I don't know how a kid can spend
6 hours a day watching TV and grow up to be
a well adjusted person (sure most do...but not
all do).
Maybe things are differnt in Australia? Its
certainly a differnt culture.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Damn, that profile fits me exactly. I didn't realize I was that dangerous. What next???? Do they revoke my passport because if I traveled to another country that could be considered an "arms export"?????
--
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
Law enforcement developed profiles to help them in investigations of crimes which had already been committed. The idea was to take a bunch of people that COULD have done it, and narrow them down to ones who were more likely to have done it. They would then investigate those and when they found physical evidence they could prosecute.
Is it possible the "quite" and "nice guy" just doesn't adequately fight back when he/she is accused? Perhaps that profile is just
more likely to get a conviction then it is likely to find the real perpetraitor. Think about the people who conduct most law enforcement investigations... What does it take to become a sheriff's deputy in most cities/counties? A high school diploma. Who the hell are we kidding?! Our criminal justice system is a sham.
Some of you may think I'm just flaming, but that isn't the case. I have a younger brother who as a JOKE started a fake gang called GPP(he was 16). He was with a friend one night when his friend decided to break into a car. My brother stood by and did nothing, and later that night turned himself in. The deputy he turned himself into then searched his vehicle and found a mallet. He brought the mallet back to where my brother was and questioned him on whether or not he could use it as a weapon, my brother (ignorant of jerk off cops like this) answered, "Yeah, I guess" so the officer tacked on a concealed weapons charge. My brother (being a first time offender) ended up on probation. The police harassment didn't stop here.
THEY labeled him as a gang member. In effect, GPP was made into a REAL gang by the VENTURA COUNTY SHERIFFS Department. With a single entry into a computer database a JOKE was made into a REAL problem. Suddenly, not only did this gang have validity it had lots of HS freshmen who wanted to join it. Keep in mind, this is a upper class primarily white community in southern california. The police continued to harass my brother, even though he complete disavowed himself of his relationship with GPP since it had ceased to be the joke it had once been.
While still on probation the police came to his class one day and arrested him. They did this in front of everybody in the class. Apparently a kid at another HS in the city had been beat up by a gang of kids. The victim said that one of the people who did had "long blond hair". Apparently my brother is the only person in a city of 120,000 that has long blond hair. My brother spent several days in juvenile hall. He was still a minor and the police/school FAILED to notify my parents that he had been arrested. In the end, after months and many dollars in lawyers fees had been wasted the charges were dropped because of a lack of evidence.
My point in relaying this story is that law enforcement officials have the power to ruin our lives with out ever thinking twice, when often they should. Giving some things a second thought as to "how much evidence do we really have?" or "how is this arrest going to affect the life of the person I'm arresting?"
Law enforcement in Ventura County is a JOKE. I imagine that the story is the same in most places. The LAPD, and the NYPD are wrapped up in various scandals. How much does it take to get an overseeing agency to veto police actions????
My point in all this was that my BROTHER is one of those "quite" and "nice guy" people. He had a joke with a few of his friends. Through the actions of a police department a gang was created. It's stunning to me that I pay taxes to support the biggest gang of all: The badge carrying neanderthal moron that runs your local Sheriff's department.
Teach a man to dish and he will gossip for life.
imho...
Since the cold war has ended, the organisations that benifeted from it arnt getting the funding they used to. The FBI/NSA/etc. in the past were able to get funding on the basis that 'they were helping to keep the commies out'. That is harder to sell these days.
Now they need to find a new way to get revenue. But to do this they need a percieved enemy. Since they dont have the Russians any more, and Cubans dont seem like a threat etc. they must create a 'threat to society'.
This threat should be something that will find it hard to defend itself, be on a fringe, and be easy to turn into a justifyable threat.
Kids who dont follow socieities lines be it because they are bright, shy, listen to 'wierd' music, dress in black, like computer games etc. are an easy target, unable to defend themselves, and some kids do grow up to be killers.
Whether the kids are dangerous or not is not the point. The point seems to be to create a threat so that certain agencies can get funding, yes 'lets go after the geeks so we can keep our jobs'.
Perhaps its a reflection on society being insecure and 'needing' protection from the unknown, they dont understand their kids and are willing to believe what they are told about them. In a time when information flows so freely it is worrying how easy it is to propogate propaganda for your own means.
I guess all we can hope for is that people wake up and see things for themselves, understand things for themselves, and not just agree with what they are told. In a way we all need to be more like children and ask 'why'?
I remember looking at these sort of tests when I studied psychology briefly at college.
;-)
case 1: Psychopath
Q: Do you ever feel like killing someone?
A: No
Q: Do you ever lie?
A: No
case 2: Joe Normal
Q: Do you ever feel like killing someone?
A: Yes
Q: Do you ever lie?
A: Yes
Verdict:
case 1 is perfectly normal case 2 is a maniac because he's telling the truth. Most people feel
that way sometimes it doesn't mean they'll go out
and do it.
These tests only work for people that are already suspect.
Feel free to correct the above, it was a long time
ago and I failed the course
While the thought of applying these rather broad categories to schools makes my blood run cold...I fear when they are applied to the rest of the world even more.
For example: The FBI's standard-issue serial killer is white, male, late 20s to early 30s, very intelligent, quiet, a loner, and usually not happy with his job. How many of us fit that description?
Of course, I doubt serial killers read slashdot...but better lock us all up just to be sure.
Never let your fears overcome your dreams.
Heh this is funny.. I make a perfect candidate.. ILL SEE YOU IN SCHOOL! muhah! hah? probably like 80% of my school qualifies for this.
[w00t@freaky.bish]# rm
If the NSA was really that stupid they need to be taken down. If I want to keep a secret you just don't start broadcasting propaganda from you Secret Headquarters(tm) and then expect not to be found out sooner or later. Do you actually think that the NSA created columbine? That your tooth fillings are actually minituare short-wave radios that are programmed to pick your brain waves? Maybe television is stealing all of your ideas and using them on various sitcoms to gain large quantities of cash. right? The government is not responsible for the way the media works. Just look at the Pentagon Papers. Nixon has been protrayed as being the most tyrannical man to be president and even he couldn't stop the media from doing their thing.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
I guess you know who you are.
Didn't need the FBI's help.
Wrote this one myself.
-John Tribble
And, uh, if there are any spooks reading-- that thing about replacing my congressman with an obedient clone-- that was a joke. Ha ha. Get it? Please don't show up at my work tomorrow-- OK?
Do you fit the Mad Scientist Profile?
Granted the data seems to only imply a correlation but correlations are often useful. While they do not imply that one factor causes the other they do allow one make fairly accurate predictions. For example, the presence of smoke and a fire are strongly correlated so if you see smoke you can usually predict that there is a fire.
If you consider some philosophical stances (e.g. Hume), correlations are the only thing that we have since we can not prove causation for anything. We base science on very strongly correlated things. Nothing tells us the sun will rise in the east tomorrow but we are fairly confident that it will do so tomorrow since it has done so every morning. (For those that claim that physics tells us the sun will rise in the east, what insures that the laws of physics won't change tomorrow?)
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
Um, doesn't this description fit /most/ angtsy teenagers. Isn't rebellion one of the stages of maturation /anyway/?
/after/ they identify the kids though? That's the real question. And I sure hope the answer is not simple expulsion: "you're different and need help and we don't like you and/or we are too lazy/careless to do anything, therefore we are going to kick you out on your ass"
I'd have to agree with another poster in that these "tests" are really silly. What are they going to do
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
This is a good example of Government trying to be responsible FOR the people instead of Government responsbile TO the people.
I , for one, don't need another set of parents...
Y'know, mass murder is within the capability of anyone who pays attention in chemistry, physics, biology, math, history, or just knows how to look things up in the public library.
By fourth or fifth grade (in the US - earlier in Signapore, I hear) you can learn enough to get access to the means (historically demonstrated) of killing by the dozens, or even hundreds, or even just one or two obnoxious tormenters.
So...where are all the corpses?
I mean, "Yes, we should be doing something." But also, "No, we should not react to feeling singled out by further withdrawing from the mainstream."
I have enough interests and hobbies and activities that don't involve sitting in a darkened room in front of my computer that I actually know and get along quite well with people who aren't geeks. Some of these people will never understand the strange allure of Perl programming, and many cannot see the awful beauty of a quick and dirty hack. But we get along anyway.
Now if I'm misunderstanding you, I apologize. I just think more kids than just budding geeks need people in their lives to spend time with them and to tell them that they're worth being around -- and that other people, even the ones that seem different and weird, are also valuable. Seems too important to limit it to just 'our own kind.'
--
how to invest, a novice's guide
Well, that describes me in high school pretty accuratly. (BTW: I dropped out last spring, got a GED, and am in tech school now).
I hung out with a small circle of friends, basically those who shared my interests.
I was a Doom2 junkie in middle school/early high school. Never got much into quake though. I didn't get bullied all that much, mostly because I ran around in all black, combat boots, and a trenchcoat (BEFORE the colorado incident, mind you, I hung up the coat for a while afterwords) and did my best to look like someone you'd want to avoid. I skipped a lot of school, being bored, and spent my time online at home. My self esteem was less than perfect, being on prozac and other drugs at times. I got kicked out of my house into HRS custody for a year, so I guess that counts as a dysfunctional family =).
But despite all this, I never had violent tendancies. I'm very against violence. If someone hit me, I'd probably either take it, or run away. It isn't so much that I couldn't fight back, it's that I wouldn't want to. I would only fight in defense of my life. So, even though this would target me, it would be without need. Most of the 'issues' mentioned above were by choice. I hung out with those people because they understood me, we shared common interests, and had fun together. I liked the internet and violent games because it was a fun way to pass time, and learn things (the internet, anyway.. you don't learn much except how to strafe from doom). I dressed how I did (and still do) because I like the style.
Even though I fit the profile, I certainly am not a dangerous person. And I know quite a few people like me, who are also not dangerous.
If I had not dropped out, I would be a senior, and I'd be very afraid if they started doing this at my school. I wasn't around school after the colorado incident, but I imagine I would have been targeted by the administration had I been. I think it is a shame to prosecute the innocent people who never will do harm because of a few mentally unstable people who happen to fit into the same group. What if we started investigating all people named 'Fred' because there was a rise in murders commited by people named 'Fred'? Obviously, it's a stretch, but that's kind of what they are doing, and it's definitly not the right approach.
note: you can read my life story (in brief) at my web page, if you so desire =P
-palp
Hey being the above - no one f#$#ed with me. The big jocks were afraid of me..=)
What's really scarry is that the US is being ran by the religious right.. All I have to say on that
-Ellis of Geeknews.net and Phester.org
-Ellis of Geeknews.com
-- iCEBaLM
I agree.
;). So the suggested I be put on rydalin.
When I was in grade school, my teacher, my principal, and my counselor believed I had a learning disability (I do, I learn too quickly for school
My mother went and discussed the possiblity with my doctor. Fortunately, both of them were doubtful of the need. So, my mother secretly put me on rydalin for a couple of weeks.
The brilliant school administrators called and asked if I had been placed on rydalin yet each week, again strongly suggesting I begin taking the drug. They Brilliant Administrators could not tell the differance.
we need a better method of teaching kids than at the pace of the slowest learner amoung them.
"Secrecy is the keystone of all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy
Do you think that some school administrator somewhere will hand out questionnaires, and ask the students to fill them in? Do you think they would accept the responses at face value?
No.
Some administrator will sit quietly, somewhere, and say "What about Student X? Are they involved in drugs? They sure look the type, so I'll tick this box. And did you get a load of their parents last week? I'd call that "disfunctional" for sure, so I'll tick this one too!" Students will be rated according to the answers some administrator THINKS apply to them. The rating and even the fact that they HAVE BEEN rated will not see the light of day.
Then one day they will raise their voice when someone ticks them off, and the cops will get called immediately. A quiet word (about their rating indicating a tendancy towards violence, etc) will get whispered in a policeman's ear, and the student won't even know why they're getting such a hard time over nothing!
If you have above-average intelligence, you'll have the common sense to make correct answers for the rest of the test.
No, I've never had voilent thoughts.
No, I love school and all of my classmates.
Yes, everything about my family is good.
I think the real lesson in school is to learn to play ball with idiots.
-Scott scott@surrealistic.org
Do you have below average intelligence? Are you sometimes a follower, feel a need to be part of a large circle of friends perceived as the "in crowd"?
Do you think you have high self-esteem? Are you confused by cults because of your inability to understand the belief without beliving it yourself? Are you facinated with weapons, and wish you could hold a position where you could abuse them legally? Do you suck at games with themes of violence and death, and frequently blow yourself up with your own rocket launcher?
Are you under the impression that you don't come from a dysfunctional home? Covet authority? Blindly accept criticism?
If the answer to most or all of the above is yes, then congratulations and welcome to the FBI.
With every successive Katz article, my faith in /. disappears. The quality of comments on /. has been going downhill for a while now (compounded by great moderation), and sifting through the thoughtless regurgitations on this thread demonstrates the situation is getting worse. Since my attempt to try and communicate in english why Katz's articles are horrific have failed (in the past) -- I hacked into his machine and sifted through his files and to my surprise found the following.
/* Begin HAX0r LOG */
[jk@smartest_geek_in_the_world docs]$ ls
compose_slashdot_story.pl
[jk@smartest_geek_in_the_world docs]$ cat compose_slashdot_story.pl
#!/usr/bin/perl
my @words = ( "geek","FBI","the man","violence","video games", "bullies","religion is evil", "athiest","nerd","oppression","government is bad","I am your god", "stop thinking for yourself, listen to me","hellmouth","profile");
for( $x=0;$x500;$x++) {
my $word = $words[rand(@words)];
print $word;
}
# EOF
[jk@smartest_geek_in_the_world docs]$
/* END HAX0r LOG */
Yes I know, I was amazed myself that Jon could write a perl script but apparently he can. At least we now have an explanation for why his stories are so bad. And when you think about it, considering its all random words picked from a list, the stories aren't half bad.
I find it utterly comedic/tragic that people are actually looking to a LAW ENFOCEMENT AGENCY to set the standard for thier view of children. Basically the FBI is an organization that gets to deal with the worst of humanity, and now we are going to tell anyone that is exibiting these characteristics that they are potential murderers. How quant. If this had happened when I was 14 I have no idea how I would react. I do know for a fact that it would be used by other students i.e. jocks and the like as and excuse to bully. Everyone is an individual and everyone is given the freedom and awareness over thier actions. And when there is no trust between people things tend to get nasty. This document will not encourage "geeks" and "nerds" to come out of their emotional shell it will, on the otherhand provide the means for further emotional withdrawl. I see this as a foolish thing for the government to do. Not that this is a start of a new trend. =^)
If this profile is anywhere near credible, then the FBI is nothing but a bunch of criminals.
Now you know why people get raid for no reasons.
*rolls eyes and gets a double 6*
As I'm quoting my own experiences, I think it's also safe to say I probably do, indeed, have the sources. They're lodged in that lump of grey matter between my ears.
If you were to think of reading first and flaming later, methinks you'd find yourself flaming less and commenting (or even agreeing) more.
Even if you -would- still end up disagreeing with me, I think that you might find yourself disagreeing in a more productive, less hostile, way.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I find it utterly comedic/tragic that people are actually looking to a LAW ENFOCEMENT AGENCY to set the standard for thier view of children.
Basically the FBI is an organization that gets to deal with the worst of humanity, and now we are going to tell anyone that is exibiting these characteristics that they are potential murderers. How quant.
If this had happened when I was 14 I have no idea how I would react. I do know for a fact that it would be used by other students i.e. jocks and the like as and excuse to bully.
Everyone is an individual and everyone is given the freedom and awareness over thier actions. And when there is no trust between people things tend to get nasty. This document will not encourage "geeks" and "nerds" to come out of their emotional shell it will, on the otherhand provide the means for further emotional withdrawl.
I see this as a foolish thing for the government to do. Not that this is a start of a new trend.
=^)
As far as the rejection of authority goes, isn't it in our nature as Americans to be rebellious. I mean it is the foundation of our country. In school we are taught about men who spit upon royal authority. And they expect us not to want to follow in the footsteps of great men? I'd personally rather be the next Thomas Jefferson than the next Gerald Ford.
I saw an edition of one of the morning talk shows where this 14-year-old kid was expelled for calling a bomb threat into his school (with no intention of actually planting one). This was NOT a smart thing to do, but it was a LAST DITCH EFFORT to get someone to listen and respond to his problem. As he explains it, he spent two months being taunted and regularly beaten by a group of bullies at his school. Initially, he did exactly as he was supposed to - he told his father, who then contacted the school. The school administrators, now aware of the problem, assured him that they would take care of it. Uh-huh. After the bullies were supposedly "talked to," the situation only became worse, with no end in sight. It's not the least bit *suprising* that something like this could end up happening. Have the brain-dead teachers, psychologists, and administrators learned *NOTHING* from the incident at Columbine?
The *response* is isn't the problem...it's a SYMPTOM of a bureaucracy that REFUSES to exercise even the slightest bit of competence when it comes to shool discipline. God forbid we put a school's athletic performance at risk by demanding that the jocks (often -but not always- the perpetrators) abide by a few rules, and be held accountable when they don't.
So, let them profile away. Let them demontrate even MORE incompetence. I just hope they try not to look too stupid while standing there with their heads up their asses the next time someone is pushed over the edge, wondering what happened.
[Man: mining the responses to this geek profile question was our best recruitment strategy EVER!]
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
Although I'm in opposition to the majority here and will probably get negative moderation for this, I think that Katz is overreacting. There are several problems with Katz's article.
A major fault is that Katz doesn't provide any evidence to support his claims. He cites emails from several principles and administrators but doesn't give us a copy of the report, just a list of characteristics. We're not even sure if the list of characteristics is complete. The url for the halifax paper is link to a bank robber being caught not a "geek profile." In addition I'm curious why a canadian law enforcement agency has the profile and is giving it to canadian papers. Toss in the lack of coverage in other media sources and I'm sceptical as to the validity of the profile.
My other problem with this is that Katz seems to see a lot of the reaction to the Columbine incident as being "anti-Geek." He also seems to believe that profiles aren't necessary. Although, one would ideally want schools to evaluate everyone individually, schools have limited resource so it makes sense to have a profile that selects those most likely to be violent/dangerous/in need of help and focus the resources on those people. In analogy, think about how many system administrator read through system log files every day and how many use logcheck, swatch, etc. to just screen out the important ones based on a profile.
Katz claims that "bullies and predator" that pick on other children aren't singled out but several of the points in the checklist apply
Come from dysfunctional homes.
Experience unstable self-esteem.
Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use.
I think the second item is applicable and since most bullies usually have a dysfunctional family file the first one applies. In addition, bullying is often used to bolster a lack of self-esteem so the second item probably also fits. Katz's assertion about teachers is not valid since the profile is supposed to pick out potentially dangerous students. Whether schools/teachers are responsible for this is a valid question but is not importance in the context of a discussion on the merits of the profile.
Katx also goes on to bring in Mosaic-2000. Doing so is irresponsible and does not contribute anything to the article. Given that the details of how the program identifies "dangerous" students and how this program will be used, claiming that this program will select geeks is not very credible.
All in all, I think that Katz is overreacting or delibrately trying to provoke a reaction among the Slashdot community. His evidence is based on heresay, and links that don't check out. The lack of coverage in other media also discredits his article. The widespread coverage that the national media gave to Mosaic-2000 makes their silence on this profile all the more damning.
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
I know that wasn't a school shooting, but it certainly was a gruesome example of meaningless violent behavior, and it occurred in a country with stricter gun laws than the US. But back to your original question, here are my best guesses as to why school shootings are more common in the US:
* 275 million citizens, so we have more wackos than most other 1st world countries
* Few restrictions on private gun ownership
* Many families with 2 working parents
* Unchecked consumerism by suburban parents denies children the attention they need at home
As American "culture" continues to spread around the globe, expect these type of acts to become more common in your country. Note that these school shootings aren't happening in Compton or Harlem -- they're happening in Everytown, USA, in neatly trimmed, isolated suburbs where all of the kids wear Abercrombie&Fitch clothes. Hell, I'd want to blow my school up too if I grew up in a place like that!
Subject line sums it up. The NSA^H^H^H bit was an attempt at a complex linguistic-emotional juxtaposition known in english speaking cultures as a "joke."
Where you concluded that the NSA created Columbine or that my teeth contain miniature radio transmitters is beyond me
Anthony
^X^X
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
"I think any time you expose vulnerabilities it's a good thing." -Attorney General Janet Reno
This is serously sounding more and more like the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition and McCarthy everday. I'm getting married in a couple of weeks and kids are most likely going to wind up in the picture. My options for raising a family are looking grimmer and grimmer unless I move out of the US. However I feel that I have a duty to change the system for the better, but quite frankly I don't want to traumitize my children in the process.
Is there a legal remedy for this? Does it fall under any existing legislation concerning civil rights? Is there a lawyer in the house that can perhaps shed some light?
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
The problem is that we, as a nation, do not want to pay teachers a competitive wage, and thus potential teachers such as myself look at the pay and go elsewhere. (Actually I put in two years in the teaching profession, but I view those two years as donated labor -- I currently make triple the salary as a software engineer than what I made as a teacher!). Teaching is an enormously stressful job, and finding people who will put up with the stress for the pay is difficult. You end up with the bottom of the barrel, unqualified people dragged in off the streets because they're unfit for any other employment.
As for teachers unions and guidance counsellors: teachers unions generally are in favor of mandatory certification because of the problem of low standards in the "off the street" hires, many of whom aren't qualified to pump gas at a gas station and who are little more than glorified babysitters. I have no idea why they would be concerned about counsellor certification, except to say that counsellors should be certified in some way or manner (as vs. hiring Principal Bob's dumb nephew Arnie to be the school counsellor).
I suspect that if anybody in power were really willing, they could reach a deal on certification of counsellors who have "non-traditional" backgrounds (like social work), something that would maybe require six hours of college coursework over the next twelve months regarding the various federal mandates and programs that counsellors must be expert in (groan). But the problem is that most of the people in power don't want such a compromise. Currently the counsellor position is used as a reward by principals for their cronies who back-stab teachers who want to teach rather than babysit, and allowing "real" counsellors into the profession would mean that they could no longer reward their cronies with counsellor jobs.
-E
Disclaimer: I was a member of the AFT in 1993, and of the NEA in 1995. Guess that makes me brainwashed, eh? (Not quite!).
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
haha, dude, you forgot to hit the 'post anonyomusly' button?
:P
and you're a +2 poster to boot! Thats the funnyest thing I've seen all day
--
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
So what should be done about it? Round them all up, or try to make everyone's life more pleasant by:
:v)
Encouraging communication by any means to widen everyone's circle of friends.
Change the school curricula to promote self-esteem.
Stop making school so damned boring for the smart ones.
Align government policies to give people a chance at having a less dysfunctional family. I'm thinking guidance councellors, support for single parent families, that kind of expensive stuff.
Make a serious attempt at removing bullying from schools rather than just go "hey, kids do that."
Legalise drugs so that a better watch can be kept on the age of the buyer.
Realise that some kids do need more attention than others.
Everyone would benefit from this lot, right?
Not quite, far more convenient if you're a government to grow-your-own-demons. Then you've got something to use as a lever to clamp down on the weak-willed components of society with.
Vik
I'm not saying that there is anything inherntly wrong with the people that the survey 'targeted', But I don't think you can really say that there 'run of the mill programers', For instance, do you really think that most programers are fron dysfunctional homes, and chronic drug uersers? Are they people who can't take critisism? certanly, some are, but I don't think that necisaraly defines the common one. Most of the coders *I* know arn't sociopaths. (Well, actualy most of the people in CS these days are simply idiots, unfortunetly :( )
--
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Those characteristics are extremely vague. In reading the posts here today, the list has obviously profiled most all of us Slashdot Readers as psychos lying in wait. What we as a society should be focusing on are not these eight vague, useless litmus tests; but the more specific, more troublesome characteristics.
:-) The point is that adults took time out of their day to care.
Lets pretend this test was given to the Columbine students BEFORE the massacre occurred. Not because of the threat of an impending incident; but simply as a routine exam sponsored by the federal government. I'd venture a guess that 15-20% of every student would fall into this idiotic classification. Using those results, how would the administration or law enforcement find the two targets of the attack that was going to happen? Klebold and Harris would have definitely fit into the guidelines provided by this checklist. So would hundreds of others.
This 'test' is too vague and only lends itself towards alienating a group of individuals, who by the vary nature of passing this 'test'; are already alienated. No good can come from it. It is not a replacement for the responsibility I feel parents and teachers have towards the kids.
When I was in high school, I went through a severe alienation period of about two years. I was unwilling to approach anyone concerning the issues I was having at school. I kept to myself, sulking through the months; just waiting for the day to be over, knowing I had a computer awaiting me at home.
What happened? My teachers took interest and got the school counselors and my mother involved to help rectify the situation. They didn't take out their handy checklist, determine that I was potentially dangerous, and decide I was a lost cause and needed to be watched from now on. No, they took interest in my life and tried their best to help me; what a concept. Though I still kept to myself and dreamed of being at home using TELIX to connect to the legions of anonymous friends who did not judge or persecute me. But that's not the point.
We wouldn't want teachers to go beyond reading out of their textbooks. That would be asking too much.
We wouldn't want parents to become a part of their kids life. That would be asking too much.
Let's just create a handy checklist so we can avoid interacting with kids.
Reality is like a Suitcase, we only take it out of storage when needed. -penfold
- Male of average or above average intelligence. This is probably the only field in any doubt, if you read some of my posts...
- Small circle of friends. Yep. I'm pretty selective about who I remain friends with.
- Social outcast. Depends on the social circle. If you're talking freakazoids and weirdos, I'm practically The Man.
- Facinated with cults, weapons, Satanism, and games involving violent death. Let's see. I own several firearms and I used to play Dungeons and Dragons. But I practise Wicca, which is neither a cult nor Satanic. So mark that as 50%.
- History of bullying or drugs. Bullies are such fun to play with though. They turn all red when you make fun of them. No drugs tho.
- Recent decline in marks. I wanted a PhD but settled for a Masters. Does this count?
- Engages in attention-getting schemes. Absolutely! This is why I do stuff like organize Geeks with Guns events, perform in public, and write Open Source Software. Not to mention posting on Slashdot.
So there you have it. As Rogers and Hammerstein might put it, "I am the very model of the modern violent criminal." Except.................I never killed anyone, and never intend to.
I donno....how did the FBI draw up that profile again?
The Kulturwehrmacht
Finding God in a Dog
Here's a different idea. Please differentiate for me the difference between a student shooting up a school and a worker shooting up a place of employment. Essentially there is no difference.
What amazes me is how people seem to be missing something obvious about these kids and adults. We keep identifying them as having low self-esteem, and that's actually wrong. What they have is an inflated concept of what they are owed - a very high self esteem, in other words. Consider if you will how frequently the phrase "they owed me" appears in early statements. The individual shoots the girl because she didn't go out with him. He shoots the teacher who wouldn't give him an A - or the boss who didn't give him that promotion. He shoots the people who laughed at him. He shoots, in other words, those individuals who didn't agree with his sense of how the world should be.
We keep looking for the disgruntled, forgetting that everyone is disgruntled at some point. Instead we should be watching for the people with borderline personality disorder - the individuals who've a view of what should be which isn't in keeping with what is. When a large enough divergence occurs and it's combined with antisocial (current term for what used to be called sociopathic) tendencies, you get the shooter.
Just my 2 cents, of course.
what about the kids who know about this crap... and who are manipulative and caniving enough to scam the whole thing? i have no idea how mosaic2k works, but if i was forced to use it, you bet i'd learn and make it look as good as it could for me. screw their tests... next i guess they start removing "bad" genetic material from kids who show signs of "impurity" (impurity based on their social status of course, internet habits, and family life, cheezits christ)
to "amphigory": love isn't all that.
things are getting worse everyday.
coming soon: www.smackamerica.com
One thing that is missing from this list is a test for a stable and logical thinking mind. I am in college now and I fit every profile, except for the drug use (I did in HS as well). I consider myself to be above average intelligence. I only have a small group of close friends who share the same interests that I do. During High School I was ridiculed on a daily basis. I was introduced to hunting at an early age and have become a gun enthusiast. I do not believe in God. During high school most of my grades where B's and C's, not from not understating the material, but from not taking school seriously. My parents were divorced when I was young and I group up in separate households which Step parents on both sides. I've been playing violent games since Wolf3d came out and have been an avid FPS gamer ever since. I spend at least 3 or 4 hours a day on the internet. According to this checklist they should be keeping tabs to make sure I don't decide to "Snap". What they really need to look for are the kids who are 1 or more of the three categories listed below
A. Don't know the difference between right and wrong.
B. Don't look ahead at the consequences at hand for wrong actions
C. Simply don't care.
I think the first profile in their list should be changed to include only above average intelligence. Most of the kids that fit this profile are very smart, but they aren't the problem. They aren't the problem because of the deterrents set in place by the government. They know that when they do something wrong, there will be consequences for their actions. They know that when they do this action this early in there life they are going to be doing something that sticks with them for the rest of their lives. Now when you deal with people who fit into one or more of the 3 categories listed above you have a problem. I don't know much about Criminal Justice, but I believe that these are characteristics of people that they look for in all criminals, so I can't see how they would overlook this in this list.
Woohoo, a perfect score! What did I win?
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Bullying is not the problem that they are looking for. People who push other kids around (such as bullys) release their anger all of the time. That means a very little chance that they will go off and start shooting everyone in the school. Whether or not being a troubled kid or a bully is worse is another debate. Bullys simply are not what this study is about.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Unfortunatly modern american government is turning out to be government byt the lobbying group. The administration would never create a checklist that appeared to target women or hispanics even if they accounted for a majority of school crimes.
As it is colombine was statisticalyy insignificat. I believe about 12 people die (or maybe are injured) in school shootings every day across the US.
The reason that "geek" children are targeted is that their is no lobbying group with enough power to protect them. The clear answer is to create a group which represents engineers/scientists politically. Given the general wealth of these profesions and the power they weild considerable change could be enacted.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
Ditto.
-= Briareos =-
but, are they black?
--
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
That if the NSA were to produce data like that it would have to be faked. It would be like saying that the NSA produces all of the stories about natural disasters just for kicks and that the truth never would get out. The radio transmitters are just a very old paranoid little saying taken from cultural context from people in the 1960's and such. People fear the government and so think about many interesting entertaining senarios that might fit a particular paradigm.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
It was Kurt Vonnegutt's (sp?) _Harrison Bergeron_ (one of the only stories I still remember from HS English...).
--
--
It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
Racial Profiling & Geek Profiling
:: teachers : anyone different
What's the difference between the two? Some of you may recall a few months ago, there was a huge media explosion about racial profiling in the New Jersey state police. Some people had complained about the state police pulling over more minorities than other people, and then some other info came out, and bam, lots of media attention. Things went on and the commissioner (or whoever is the head honcho) of the state police was forced to resign because of the whole thing.
How is this any different than teachers profiling students? It is the same as racism and it is wrong.
police : minorities
It pisses me off how kids in school aren't really treated as human, more like slaves that need to be supressed if they think differently. They don't have rights, or anything that all American's are supposed to have. That too is wrong.
I can only hope that someone in congress or whereever, has enough balls and doesn't care about criticism enough, to stand up for the rights of all of the young American's that are too being "pulled over" in a sense for being a "minority"... It's just plain old bull shit.
SuPz.orG
It's funny... age doesn't really matter in a profile like this. My wife, with the sole exception of being female (I am very thankful she's female), also fits this profile. A _lot_ of people I knew fit this. Instead of trying to beat everyone into a happy little mold, maybe they should try to fix the problems.
I wonder just how many FBI drones fit the profile? Local cops? Prison guards? District Attorneys? No matter, anything to help keep our prison percentage above South Africa's has to be helpful. We're doing a swell job locking up all the nigras, best we git them white geeks working at prison wages too. Gotta stay competitive with China!
It seems obvious that Mosaic will not prevent violence in schools. These indescrimant killings are copy cat crimes sanctioned by various historical traditions (family fueds, Bolshivic propaganda, fire bombing, etc.) but largely enabled and encouraged by the mass media. Still they are so rare as to be imposible to collect statistics useful enough to even narow down the pool of potential suspects. Even if the pool was narowed down, random events, by definition, can not be predicted. As pointed out above, the more violent and oppresive are ignored by Mosaic so that the victims can be further persecuted.
The New York Times has an article running with erie similarities to this conversational thread. It shows where such Left leaning thoughts can lead, and tells why. Check out:
The Stasi
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/1129 99germany-stasi.html
Ten years after the fall of the Berlin wall, the inner workings of the East German police state are mostly visible. Eight times the size of Hitler's SS per capita, the Stasi's primary tool was profiling. Knowledge is the conerstone of coersion. Police states are most distrustful of those who can have ability and these are the people Mosaic is designed to watch. No one is too small to be ignored.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I will admit that strong correlations are extremely important, and there *are* philosophies that show that we can only be certain to a certain percentage (i.e., 99.9999999999999999999%). Without evidence supplied by statistical relationships, we can't do *any* type of research. Dismissing it as "nothing more than a statistical relationship" was not my intention-- my intention was to dismiss the application of the correlation, but it didn't really come out that way.
My main problem is with the attitude that if we get rid of the smoke, we get rid of the fire (to use your analogy). For example, let's say Joe Geek gets targeted as a dangerous kid (he fits the demographic in a lot of ways). What would he do?
* He would not mention the fact that he plays Quake to anybody
* He would definitely stop hanging out with the small group of friends he has. He would sit in the middle of crowds, trying to look like he fits in even though he isn't talking to anybody.
* He would stop carrying around "A Course In Combinatorics" and "Cryptonomicon" in his backpack and start carrying around books by Steinbeck and Ginsberg.
After being observed by the administrators for a suitable period of time, it is determined that Joe Geek does not fit the demographic and is therefore not a threat. But in reality, Joe is just angrier at the school-- he's just not showing it. This only serves to make it all the more likely that he'll act out his anger in improper ways, perhaps even in violent outbursts.
Correlation is a good thing, and it should not be dismissed offhand. It's one of the most powerful tools that a scientist has-- and used properly, it can give insight into the way things work and the why they work that way.
But don't assume that "mainstreaming" a person will make him or her less "apt to kill".
This is a perfect example of the state of our precious US. Ppl want to have children, but don't want to spend time to raise them...therefore they leave it to the schools and public schools are already becoming overcrowded etc. So kids lack attention and do crazy stuff to get it. Hence we have to start labeling ppl and taking away rights. Its the parents I tell ya, the parents.
Criminal psychologists study years and do massive research to come up with their own method of profiling; Even then it's mostly based on past experience.
And now the FBI just hands out a 1-page checklist and expects school teachers to become just as good???? It's just plain irresponsible. The real profilers must be shaking their heads. I know I am.
---
When it's deployed, a profile like this isn't used in the way you describe. It's used as a heads-up, "Hey teachers, counselors, etc., this is the kind of geek who's gonna plant a bomb". They use it to go fishing, and that's why it's not good for the students.
---GEC
Bow-ties are cool.
The only thing I can tell anyone here, or anyone currently attending school is ...
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My life is my own." No. 6
Be like number 6.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
Aside from the amusing improper word choice in your Subject line (it is 'sighted' not 'sited' -- the reference is to vision, not location), your entire post lacks any sense or logic! Would it be fair to assume that you don't fit the profile?!
If you don't mind illogic, you probably think ads for Internet Keywords by RealNames are really cool and sensible!
No Laughing Allowed!
I fit them all! I guess I'll have to give up my mass-murdering future though, I'm a pacifist. Darn, and things were looking so good. Back to programming I guess.
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll"
By all means, if you feel that "more kids than just budding geeks need" support (and I don't disagree!), then go volunteer to Big Brother/Big Sister of America, or the Boy/Girl Scouts, or the YMCA/YWCA, or any of a zillion other general organizations which exist to provide non-parental adult support to all kids.
However, clearly those things aren't working for this demographic. They aren't going to work, because they are aimed at a conforming norm. They can do great things for the (vast majority of) people who fit their mold; even some geeks do manage to derive benefit from some of the above organizations.
Being a geek is more than an interest in computers. Nor is "geek" a state of social ineptitude. We've gone over these traits repeatedly here on /. and I don't think I need to go into this again.
We are a people. Our kind of different is valid. I think a lot of us go off the rails, especially in adolescence, because of not merely the pressure to conform, but the lack of models/heuristics of how to be true to themselves and still function smoothly in society.
Let me give you a very specific example. A classic geek trait is introversion, which is not the same thing as being shy. A thing which I've learned and taught to all my friends is this: If you pay attention, you can tell when you're getting stressed out by being around too many people; many geeks develop the defensive mechanism of being acerbic to drive people away, which kicks in when they're over-stressed by too many people. So instead of verbally theething on your loved ones and friends, just say "Hey, I'm feeling really over-socialized right now, and need some solitude. Can I get back to you later?" And it works for us.
I certainly wish I knew this trick when I was 13.
And there's lots more where that comes from.
We really are different from other people. Not sick, not wrong, just different. We need different tools, especially different cultural tools.
I presume you wouldn't suggest that geeks who need glasses not get them because it would make them stand out from the mainstream. Same thing.
I think we need a way of getting those tools to our young: the young geeks.
Other people need other tools (perhaps some of them would benefit from the same tool box). I sincerely hope they get them. But I'm going to worry about the baby-geeks because I was one, and it's the one demographic no one really cares about. They're my agenda, because I largely wasn't anybody's agenda, and I'd like for my suffering not to have been in vain.
----------------------------------------------
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
"Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence"
Is that truly the first question on the "profile", or just put there by sheer luck? Regardless, this kind of adds fuel to my theory that the American goverment WANTS their subjects stupid. Anyone thinking for themselves should be suspect and reported immediatly.
As for some of the other questions, such as broken homes and abusive/uninvolved parents, any administrator with two neurons to rub together will tell you while these things are common with those causing problems, they are not reliable indicators.
So, I guess, call the cops now, because it's inevitable. I'll begin slaughtering my classmates left and right any day now...
--
You know, I am tired of reading stories like this. I'd like to thank all the media who waste our time reporting this crap. What can we do about the government making stupid decisions. Oh wait, you all have mouths and hands; call or write your congressmen; Start raising some (peacefull now!) hell with em. Our representatives and senators need to know what we really think about what they're trying to vote in to law. It's one thing if Billy gives a speech vowing to rid our schools of these violent people. It's another when he, or any public servent, allow or suggest that citizens be monitored like inmates. Behavioural profiling should be confined to dealing with threats, not potential threats. I got picked on in high school, i was relatively introverted. My grades were poor and I consider myself an average guy. I enjoy playing quake(1,2,3) and Unreal tournement :-) But let me tell ya, i would never kill a human IRL. It's one thing to be blown away in silicon, but i know i couldn't handle the psycological trauma associated with killing someone. As a group, we nerds and geeks need to be real proactive when we can. Perhaps other segments of this nations population will pick up the ball too; maybe we get better than 50% popular vote!
Remember, write, write, write!
bob
That's dead on. The assumption of guilt here is absurd & unbelievable. The state could arguably enforce a survey, assuming it was somewhat less bogus than this one, and compile statistics, but only as aggregates and totals in numbers of students, etc. Never should the state be allowed to associate the results to the individuals's names, as that violates this principle: It's also even more abberant in the fact that these are also the identities of minors, which should be confidential and undisclosed to begin with according to youth-protection acts. For the system to work, the state must abide by its own rules and charters. Also the assumption that hanging in a clique is dangerous! All groups are by definition exclusive from other groups or the masses, this is how we establish the bounds of a group. And what happenned to the right to assembly: to gather with other individuals for various cooperative social or political functions? This is one of the cornerstones of liberty.
Your email has been returned due to insufficient voltage.
Do i go to football games?~~ No, because it's a bumch of grown men beating the shit out of each other, to get a ball from one end of a dirt patch to the other~~I find it uncivilized.~~ they are the ones who will one day get paid to beat people up ! And will i kill anyone?~~ No.``
I only have 2 or 3 freinds~~they are my freinds.~~ I have no need for any more.``will blow up the sk00l?~~No. I listen to KoRn, ORGY and limp bizkit, along with RATM and several other "dark" bands. will I kill anybody?~~ No. I spend the entire day in front of a bash prompt ore using the KDE.~~I will not kill anyone. I play lazertag and go ot the arcade. I will not kill anyone.
why? because I have the fundamental understanding that life is worth something. That the games that I would be as brutal and mean as them if I did something like that. They act like little children. Thjey make fun of people, hit them. like little children I have the intelligence to know better, they don't.
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Jon Katz has now written too many stories on thsis topic, with too little new content. They are all emotional pulls about geeks and how highschool is unkind to them.
Hellmouth 1: The Original story.
Hellmouth 2: The Sequel story.
Hellmouth 3: The Let's-Make-it-a-Trilogy story.
Hellmouth 4: The Mosaic-2000 story.
Hellmouth 5: The Here's Proof story.
And currently posted at a slashdot forum near you .... Hellmouth 6. (You're reading it!)
While the first couple Hellmouth articles might have been informative and interesting, I think Katz has exhausted the topic. The articles seem to have very little to say, other than 'this is how geeks in highschool are being treated unfairly now'. They don't contain much new information, and certainly, Katz never seems to have any new insights. Obviously these articles connect to a lot of us, who do fit such "profiles" to some degree, and a lot of us had not-so-good high school experiences, but I am getting a bit sick of these emotionally overwrought fluff articles.
There is nothing new about this "News".
---
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Just think. Most schools have some sort of computer department head or liaison. The computer liaisons have other things to worry about. They've got to replace burned out hard drives in 486's, pick gum out of floppy drives, and plug mice back into the computers of teachers that can't figure out how.
The sad thing is principals will pass Mosaic off as a good thing for the students, parents will mindlessly agree just because they don't know better, and when their kid is labeled as a murderer, then we'll see things start getting weird.
First, the U.S. Constitution was highly unusual when it was initially drafted; further, it set a standard for other similar documents to come afterwards. Second, while it is still a good document, and still relevant, it is slightly antiquated. Other documents to come have improved upon the model. Amendments have helped somewhat, but there are a few major reforms I'd like to see happen.
However, the absence of such reforms in no way means that we're on the road to ruin.
You say that "People have come to see the internet as a commercial medium or a place for violent, pornographic, conspiracy nuts to hang out." So what? First, I think the number of people who actually do see it this way is rapidly decreasing in the face of increased and more accurate media exposure (it's still bad, but getting better). Second, so what if they do? That in no way affects the fact that the Internet remains the single most effective medium for the free exchange of ideas throughout the world. It is that exchange of ideas which will prevent the cataclysm you seem to predict.
Finally, I have a question for you, Mr. Anonymous Coward. You say, "We've already destroyed this nation." Well, what are you doing to fix it?
Powers&8^]
Powers&8^]
This causes me to draw interesting parallels to _Enders Game_, where children have to wear "monitors" to track their activities and actions. Ender puts up with the bullying when people are watching (i.e. the monitor is on) but when it is removed ends up killing his tormentor. I think this is a accurate (though perhaps not among...what was it, 6 year olds?) portrayal of what might happen in a situation like this. Really rather frightening. Mycroft-X
Hey, this one deserved a score of 5. =)
I know I'm not alone here when I say this, but I was an above-average student with nonexistent social skills in school. I was quiet, unassuming, and my internal organs were very easy on the knuckles of the bigger kids.
According to this FBI profile, I am a dangerous individual. Excuse me? I beg your fscking pardon?!? I fail to see how a 90-pound weakling is more dangerous in the eyes of the FBI than the football team captain who considered my head to be the proper resting place for his fist for four years. The FBI profile would consider him to be well-adjusted: the wholesome model of American fscking decency. I have a big problem with this.
I was tortured. I was never chained to a wall or had bamboo shoots stuck up my fingernails, but I was literally tortured in both the physical and mental capacities. To insinuate that the problem lies with me is an outrage. I, like most of the people who fall into this category, wished then and now only to be left alone. We don't bother people. We don't pick fights, and when we do get into one, it's because Beef Armstrong and his buddies are looking to pound somebody whether they they can defend themselves or not.
If the FBI would look at what turns these mild-mannered geeks into vicious, bloodthirsty killers, they would see one thing: redirecting the anger that's poured onto them. The profile's point about coming from a broken home wouldn't help the issue, but a lot of it comes just from being someone's punching bag in school.
Since I wasn't a big tough guy, I got beaten up. I didn't fight back. Later, I'd ice my bruises and play Doom for a few hours. It made me feel better, specifically because I was turning the hatred that I felt inside out, into the game. That wasn't a cyberdemon I just roasted, it was the guy who gave me a sprained arm. Are you -- or anyone -- going to tell me that I shouldn't visualize that? Am I wrong to superimpose in my mind myself killing a monster in my real life over myself killing a monster in a computer game? This raises the point I want to make: if it is wrong, how wrong is it? More wrong than the guy who beat me up? This is the comparison of imaginary violence over real violence. Real violence is wrong, plain and simple. Imaginary violence is a crime against no one. Who is to blame? Me or my bully? That's not a hard choice to make, and it's time for the FBI realize the ramifications of this.
Instead of setting up a checklist trying to figure out who's going to snap, take a look at what's making them snap.
The profile that the FBI issues is a checklist for finding all the punching bags in America and wagging a bony finger at them. "Don't you even think about getting violent! We've got our eyes on you!" Then the same administrators and educators that think you're the next Columbine will turn around and throw a pep rally for the football team and give them all undeserving B's in chemistry so they'll be able to play at the State Finals this year.
Then they'll thank God that they put a stop to that small, quiet little boy before anyone got hurt.
---
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Remember when "Truth, Justice, & the American Way" wasn't contradictory?
now THIS REALLY sets me off
'oh... look at the freak... haha... look at him... he's smart.... haha.... he see's that there is so much more to life than sports and highschool... hahaHAHA.... lets label him a murderous psycho'
this is just so totally ignorant of them. and they wonder why these kids go beserk.
the 'good' kids push the 'bad/smart/dork/geek/etc' kids around. a few of the 'bad/smart/dork/geek/etc' snap and then all of the moronic, complacent 'good' people label the 'bad/smart/dork/geek/etc' people as dangers to society.
and what happens to our 'good' antagonists??? nothing... after all they are 'good'....
/me is VERY VERY ANGRY!
shiftRemember those things that used to come in the mail occasionally, or on the news, citing ways to tell if your teenager was using drugs? They used such discriminating factors as:
- Sleeps too much, or not at all
- Keeps irregular or strange hours
- Doesn't spend time at home
- Gets many phone calls
- Carries a pager
- Does not want to communicate with parents about their social life
Any parent who looked at those lists and had a clue *laughed* their asses off.
This is just further evidence of the tendancy towards black and white guidebooks for things that have no black and white. We love to set up guidelines for things and try to adhere to them because we fear the people in charge have no critical thinking skills or good judgement. By giving them specifics to pick out a 'dangerous' kid, they are somehow 'empowered' to do the right thing. It's too bad that we can't just get more intelligent, perceptive people in charge of our schools instead of trying to 'trap' kids who are at risk.
This test is being read like a horiscope or a fortune cookie, it can apply to anyone. This description would fit any social outcast group if you changed the title:
"Take the FBI's Outcast profile test..."
"Take the FBI's Personal Dysfunction test..." Test..."
"Take the FBI's Dangerous SCA Member Test..."
"Take the FBI's Slashdot Reader's Test..."
This test will be pulled out next time that we have a disaster, and the FBI will say "The suspect fits our dangerous geek profile perfectly." To which most Americans will reply "Lets pat the FBI on the back for a job well done... now we need to make every student who tests positive to this test normal again!"
This test is useless as it is written now. The questions are poorly worded and vague. I just hope that other people will see this too...
Loren
Well, you better start paying those lawyer fees soon because (with our current system,) from the instant your child starts school he is going to be profiled, and it will never stop.
This whole program is an attempt to create a universal system (that has been proved to work by the way) to serve as an aid for teachers and guidance coincilers when dealing with children. And believe it or not... it will help break down the stereotyping you are so afraid it will enforce.
Think about it, right now your children are being profiled based on their outward looks and actions. We have seen the affects of this method of "profiling" with all the Hellmouth letters. As goths and geeks are suspended, beaten up and viewed with even more prejudice than before. This is ased on the current (albeit, unofficial) system of profiling. A universal system will help teachers and councilers to realize that geek/goth/nerd/loner does not necesarily mean killer.
But go ahead and spout your "I'm going to sue dammnit" statements that the ignorant are so fond of spewing.
'Nuff said in the subject. If you don't say, act, or do things like the masses, you're a threat to their well-being. You don't play sports? You don't use the word 'like' once every three words? You don't wear all the clothes that cost over $50 a pop? You ""not one with jesus?"" You despise rap? You think puff daddy should go through public castration? Then you're a threat to their conformist well-being. They must make you conform to their standards or you might be a threat. Have they ever thought that pushing conformity and alienation like with this so-called 'geek profile' that it might be their worst mistake?
Obviously someone's not thinking. But of course, if _you_ are, that's another threat to the conformist well-being. They don't like people who can think for themselves.
The vicious cycle starts in schools. Mr A is, well, 'different.' He dosen't like rap, he prefers to be by himself, and he prefers cheap shirts displaying his affection for his favorite bands like Pantera, Machine head, Metallica, etc...
Mr A arrives in jr high school. Being on the pudgy side, many people ridicule him for being fat and wearing different 'satanic' clothes. During math class, the teacher has a hard time with rowdy kids and calls Mr. A stupid because he can't get a problem that seems relatively simple. There's more being made fun of during lunch, while sitting with 4 of his friends whom are a lot like him. After lunch, in the bathroom, they get beat up for the umpteenth time. Life is like this a lot of the time for Mr. A, so he finds a savior in computers. They don't make fun of him, don't talk back, they just take information in and spit imore of t out, all objectively.
Mr. A arrives in highschool. Here, many people don't care how people act or look, they're too self-absorbed. This delights Mr. A. As year goes on though, a group of about 50-80 kids who still seem to not be able to comprehend what the word 'maturity' means still harasses Mr. A and his friends. People constantly ask them why they act like they do and why they wear the clothes they wear. Teachers and counselors are always questioning them. Some have even been called up to the office and interrogated about bomb threats to the school. All this helps to fuel the alienation and now Mr. A uses computers more than ever. He constantly talks on IRC with people who don't care how he looks. He gets into making web pages, graphics, programming, and various other little tidbits. He becomes extremely proficient in many programming languages and starts making a lot of money. He's finally found something he really likes.
Now Mr. A has been a pretty calm guy about everything. He's kept his cool. Until one day someone wouldn't stop bothering him during a class. He asks the teacher if he can move because of it, but she makes a snide remark. To escalate the problem, he's called up to the office and interrogated about his habits of being on the computer every waking minute he's not at school. !!!PING!!! That's the last straw for Mr. A. That day all the years of ridicule and pestering about being different and being himself have caused Mr. A to finally not be able to stand it anymore. Mr. A easily acquires an automatic submachine gun. Mr. A goes to school and plays target practice with all the people who have ridiculed him for being different. Mr. A then targets the teachers who have treated him badly. Then, fearing jail, turns the gun on himself.
It all goes back to one thing. He didn't conform to the standards of the immature masses at schools, therefore he was ridiculed and bullied. After so much of it, the mental strain on him is too great. His formerly intelligent judgement goes down the drain and all he wants is for it all to stop. Since he's lost his good judgement, the word 'gun' pops in his head. Sure, it's a little far-fetched, but this is just an example. I see the threat from someone's own classmates and teachers a bigger problem that your normal geek. They have the potential of shaping a person's personality by influence, proving fatal in the above scenario.
That they know not what they do, that they don't realize what a Pandora's box they're opening now seems too easy an answer. They have scores of sociologists, psychologists, and psychiatrists at their beck and call. Is it possible that of the presumably many involved with creating this profile, none thought this might be a bad idea, or what the future implications might be, or what kind of precedent it may set?
So what? So what if... the FBI knows exactly what they are doing.
Perhaps I've seen one too many episodes of the x-files, but I think there is perhaps another explanation for this test and why it has been released to American AND Canadian schools. (Since when has the US Gov. cared about Canadian social issues anyway?)
This may well be a small piece to a very large picture. I can only see a portion, but who else has heard or seen things that are seemingly silly, stupid, even idiotic, but appear to be isolated events. How many of them actually fit together in some bizarre scheme that we as yet cannot comprehend?
Part of the picture involves this profile, or more specifically what affect this profile will have. Think about it. A simply test from a respected government agency for educators as an early warning system. Sounds more like a tagging system. Hmmm... Why apply labels to kids based on a number of factors largely out of their control, and for what little they do control they are generally ill prepared socially to deal with it at that point in their life. Bottom line. They are not yet what they may become, good or bad. But hey, let's force it on them anyway.
That brings me to Self-fulfilling prophecy. In Sociology 101 I learned about a concept called 'Self-fulfilling prophecy'. It's been 10 years since I took the class, but basically it claims that things like labels and names have certain behaviors associated to them, and by applying them to someone, that will be how an individual begins to define his identity. This identity begins to define his thoughts, and his thoughts define his actions and behavior. This behavior is categorized by some label and the whole thing comes full circle.
Last week the FBI had some ISP shut down the site of a guy who had made a movie showing the government causing a Y2K riot so that they could declare martial law. See Wired and Slashdot. For decades movies have shown government abusing its power... why this one? Why him? Perhaps because it hit too close to home for certain elements with this sort of thing in mind.
For months, I understand, the US has been preparing their National Guard for deployment in the event of some kind of Y2K disaster. Good planning to be sure, but let's face it, one word from the government and sand bags by a river bank quickly become tear gas canisters in the middle of a crowd.
I don't really know much about economics, so I let someone else describe the potential impact of this but recently I read that the government has recently given/sold/invested a ton of cash in/to the financial institutions to give them (and citizen) piece of mind. Source anyone? I appreciate the thought, but I can't believe it is a good idea to encourage people to remove their money by making it available for everyone to do so.
This is all off the top of my head, but let's recap...
Create a subculture of deviants from all the kids who fit the profile. That's a lot of kids. As a result of years of labeling, prejudice and discrimination, you have an army of intelligent, but socially undesirable people. Oh, did I mention that they're angry? Angry people tend to be apathetic about issues not directly involving themselves and are probably easier to shepherd than others. Control the majority and many of the minorities will follow suit. A government agency prevents the electronic mass distribution of film that describes a government plot, in an attempt to keep even the thought of such a thing from the masses. Out of sight, out of mind. The National Guard is on standby. Power failures, riots, same difference. The government purposely enables its citizens to hoard cash and thereby leaving large amounts of cash available for theft/loss/destruction, you pick.
Anyone else have a piece to add?
So... is it just me or is something is about to unfold... or is this all in preparation for something much bigger?
I know many ./er's and none fit any of those categories (that I know of, the third is a tad hard to tell). Especially the first one. With that in mind, I'm prompted ask "What kind of crazy disconnected logic are you using?".
"Tolerates or fails to prevent bullying of, mob actions towards, and/or ostracism of individual students not conforming to the general societal mores of the mass of the student body..."
The geek test was too short! While those are good questions to ask, I was expecting a fifty thousand item questionaire to rival the purity tests. I think the geek community needs to embellish the FBI list with more/better questions. Make it the FBI geek test that the FBI would have thought up if they were geeks.
I think there should be a profiling system for potential FBI agents. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover wore women's clothing.
I wonder what the comparative statistics would be for murderous/violent/"anti-social" behaviour from the other social groups? After all, it is unheard of that football players or wrestlers commit violent acts (no - they just beat on people with adult supervision). Wait what about thespians - don't they prefer pretending to be other peoples and thrive on the attention of others? How about the newspaper crew - wasn't the Russian Revolution started by intellectual writers? Or the conformist-wear-designer-clothing-and-do-anything- to-be-in-the-In-Crowd people? Surely they don't suffer from low self-esteem? Also, given the propensity of the Feds to want to restrict the use of encryption for personal use, and how they want to be able to automatically tap all online communications, maybe this is just a way for them to identify and catalogue those who might pose a threat to their Orwellians schemes? or am i just paranoid?
"Omnis tuus capsa sunt inesse nos"
Is the student male?
Is the student going through puberty?
Was the student brought up in a society full of violent media images? (for example, the US)
If you answered yes to all of these questions, consider the student potentially violent, disruptive, and subject to unpredictable behavior.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
I point you to a link to an article written by one of the more prominent people in the Ameteur Science community, Bill Beaty.
In it, he describes the very real dangers perpetuating the status quo. At the Columbine tragedy, they found a couple of devices that the boys had made up- but failed to effectively use (namely they malfunctioned). These devices should send shudders up your spine- they were fuel-air explosives. Had the boys been a little less inept at the manufacture of their bombs, there would have been a worse tragedy, there'd been just about nobody to survive the resultant holocaust .
It's time that we as a country and as a people quit deluding ourselves about everything being "okay" and that profiling the "problem" children will fix everything. It's a damned cop-out band-aid, that. There's something fundamentally dead-wrong with the whole system; it needs fixing now before something even more horrific that Columbine happens. And believe me when I say that it will if something else doesn't change soon. The social barriers to erasing yourself and taking a lot if not all the school with you in the process just got effectively removed by what transpired at Columbine; it's only a matter of time before someone clever comes up with a reliable device such as the ones used at Columbine. How many do they think they'll find with this "profiling"- and how many will slip by them? What will the ones that slip by them do?
Fix the damn problem, not the symptoms!
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
According to this list I am capable of commiting murder. I have 6 and a half out of 8. The other "crimes" that make me capable would be wearing trenchcoats, wearing goth make up and playing games like doom and quake. In addition to this wonderful checklist, schools have started Mosaic 2000 designed to target "potentially dangerous people". What a wonderful soloution, why tighten gun controls when you can pick on kids instead. Since when has being different meant being dangerous. Does this mean that anyone who is not blond haired, blue eyed, atheltic, open and articulate should be hussled out of society...Sound familiar ? What next, Hail Clinton ? This another example of the hypocrisy of a government who does not care about governing logically, only governing for money. I wonder how much the famed "right to bear arms" would be allowed if the gun makers did not pump so much money into respective governments coffers. Why go after them, they pay, go after people who are, by their very nature, unable to defend themselves. Being different is not a crime, I glorify in the fact that I am an individual, that I prefer knowledge over power, that I can wake up at 4am, having been in bed for 2 hours and check my email. If I like some clothing, I will wear it without thought of what it may suggest to others, I will wear because I think it is cool. I wonder what would happen to a geek who had taken drugs, had been in debt, who had hacked into a government computer and wiped out some DUI charges...(Change the hacked to had them erased when elected)...You would ofcourse allow him to run for president. He has a famous dad, lots of money backing him. Besides, he looks good in campaign photos, has good hair..Way to go George, Perfect modern day politics, truth is irrelevant, you can hide behind persecution of geeks so that your imperfections are hidden behind a national search for scrape goats that will not effect them in anyway. Ever wondered if someone is playing a joke on you, and that in real life countries are run properly?
Come over to the UK, where it is more socially acceptable to be a geek / nerd / eccentric / weird, we have lots of famous people who are not in the least bit normal, and we love it.
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
I think Bill Beaty put it best on his page on the subject of Columbine. It's only a matter of time; and these morons are insuring it's going to happen with all this profiling BS- all we need right now is a witchhunt.
Hey, let's "profile" the problem people so we can single them out for "help". We all know what kinds of "help" they're going to get- and it's liable to help things right along to the holocaust and the poor bastards won't know what caused it or what hit them.
It's about time that we, the country as a whole, pull our collective heads out of the sand (or is that out of our rectums??) before it's too late and we experience something far, far more horrific than Columbine.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I think Bill Beaty put it best on his page on the subject of Columbine. It's only a matter of time; and these morons are insuring it's going to happen with all this profiling BS- all we need right now is a witchhunt.
Hey, let's "profile" the problem people so we can single them out for "help". We all know what kinds of "help" they're going to get- and it's liable to help things right along to the holocaust and the poor bastards won't know what caused it or what hit them.
It's about time that we, the country as a whole, pull our collective heads out of the sand (or is that out of our rectums??) before it's too late and we experience something far, far more horrific than Columbine.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
"What constitutes a "fascination" with Satanism?"
Add to your list, being a devout christian (or any other faith I suppose) who studies/reads about it because:
1) Understanding what what goes on in their heads
2) In the hopes of helping them
3) "Know thy enemy"
4) Better then horror novels?
5) Curiosity (I forgot we're not supposed to ask questions)
Sigh...
*A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.*
Fatal rampages happen very very rarely in our schools. Drunk driving fatalities and date rape happen far too frequently to even make the press.
Why don't we develope a profile for these perps?
Do you think schools would be as eager to accept a profiling system if it targeted their best athletes? I don't think so, not when they cave to community presure to hire better coaches over better teachers.
...sigh...
-matt
Funny, I'm not all that old (just 23), but sometimes that thought does cross my mind. However, I what I'm seeing more and more are "punk" kids. For example, my high school was largely tolerant of different types of people - I was (and still am) a geek, and was accepted by most people.
These punk kids I see are the ones that are largely intolerant and think that they're all that. There is little or no desire to understand other people or appreciate things/people outside their comfort zone. I'm seeing that these kids are the ones that help perpetuate the persecution and alienation of those considered geeks, nerds, or Not-Cool-Enough(TM).
*Sigh*, someone posted.. "Love is the answer", and I wholly believe that (and try my best to live that, too.)
On "Over My Head (Live)" Doug Pinnick King's X's vocalist, sings and tells the Woodstock audience to love their kids, even if they're freaks, weird... or else their kids will end up "fucked up...like me". Amen! It's sad seeing frustrated kids running around beating themselves up emotionally - or worse - because of the lack of love in their lives; and we (I'll lump us all) grownups resort to "percentage statistics" about this and that, and to profiling to try to combat the symptoms of this common human condition. Hello priorities here...
BTW: I do fit some of the criteria of the geek profile, but I was never persecuted for being "smart" or computer-literate, etc. (actually only for standing up for my Christian world-views to a friend once in class.) Sure, it's tougher to fix the matters of the heart - let's face it, the government is not up to task to it - I don't think it was ever their job. We, as "grownup" geeks, who have struggled through the high school experiences, the Slashdot community at large, have the onus to reach out and shape our communities slowly. Let's face it, the problem won't go away just with us complaining and philosophizing here - in fact, it'll probably get worse, starting with "geek profiling".
And about those punk kids, I've gotta give them some slack, too - give 'em some sort of role model for them to look up to, I guess.
I've heard great suggestions about sponsoring, hiring geeks, taking kids under our wings, etc. It's a dark world out there, and for those that have started stepping out to the light, let's help the younger ones.
I think we agree more than disagree. Where our views start to diverge is how we both answer the question, "To what degree are geeks different from non-geeks?"
From your post, phrases like 'We are a people' and 'We need different... cultural tools' lead me to believe that your answer to that question is "To a very great degree, at a fundamental level."
While I agree that there are differences between geeks and everybody else, I don't think they're that deep. We all follow Maslow's hierarchy fairly closely. I have a desire to be needed and respected and loved just as the quarterback of my high school football team does. My social group in high school got picked on, and we picked on other people, including some of the jocks.
To follow the example you give, introversion is not limited to the geek set. I've met plenty of introverted people who had little else in common with me. Also, I think just about everybody goes 'off the rails' during adolescence -- I've met very few adolescents who didn't suffer through periods of questioning authority and one's identity. In my opinion, no one fits the Conforming Norm, and any program that fails to recognize this will have limited successes.
The thing that scares me here is the idea of a Geek Identity movement. If people sit down and start to think, "Hey, those guys are a whole lot different from everyone else," doesn't that lend validity to the whole Geek Profile thing Katz is railing about? I mean, look at what's happened to the Goths -- they're hardly suicidal Manson freaks, but that's the stereotype. That's what scares me. It's bad enough that kids feel the need to kill themselves and others, but if superficial similarities are used to alienate kids like we were even further....
You're absolutely right on the unstated premise in your last paragraph -- we're better off helping kids like ourselves. I certainly have sympathies for the little guy out there with a big stack of books, a guitar, a computer, and nothing else. Does that mean I ought to be Rob Malda's Big Brother?
--
how to invest, a novice's guide
Yes, yes it is.
Sig broken, watch for
FBI Profile NSA Application Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence. -------------------------------------------------- Often loners, or have small circle of friend who are outsiders. -------------------------------------------------- Experience unstable self-esteem. -------------------------------------------------- Often fascinated by cults, Satanism, weapons, themes of violence and death. -------------------------------------------------- Experience a decline in schoolwork and marks. -------------------------------------------------- Come from dysfunctional homes. -------------------------------------------------- Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use. -------------------------------------------------- Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism. -------------------------------------------------- Do a majority of these describe you? If so, you have an excellent career waiting for you at the NSA!
I moved to Calgary after growing up in a town of about 17,000 people. First day I was in the city there was a school yard fight with bats and pipes and a kid got shot. Next day at a different school there was a fight with chains and a kid got stabbed. I had to wonder what the hell kind of place I'd moved to where the school kids do that kind of shit. Then there was the kid who got torched a couple years ago, I think the little monsters threw gas on him...
Anyway all that being said my experience of Calgary is much different (maybe because I was 20 when I got there and 6'0, 190 pounds of "Get the fuck away from me" when I walked the streets). The only problems I ever had were drunken panhandlers and groups of teenagers brave enough to yell at me from across the street or their vehicles while I was walking around at 2:00AM. I always liked to live downtown though, some areas were worse than others I guess.
I mean, he fit the profile.
To a T.
Will in Seattle
>In recent weeks this psychological "tool," polished by the FBI and other agencies and now being distributed to a school near you, has been creeping across the country.
well, maybe if they didn't spend so much time "polishing their tools" (nmiaow...or is it?) they could figure out that there are more personality classes than "geek" and "goth", and the others are just as potentially dangerous (though that potential is minimal anyhow) as the "outcasts", who are generally happy enough to exist in their small but growing groups.
Then no prob. Besides, they probably wouldn't even notice where they were. We could tell them it was an "elite training school for atheletes" and have them do something useful for society like dig ditches.
Will in Seattle
Maybe we should start a help community. Most of us are geeks, we could create a tactful way to help the upcoming 'us'.
;)
I hated everyone and everything at the age of 13, and I would have loved to vent my problems in an open forum, where they won't yell back, but will help and talk to me about it. Instead, I made it worse for myself, hurt a lot of other people, and lost a lot of potential friends by being a dick on the bbs's.
So, how about it, anyone at slashdot interested in creating an extension page called 'Geek Help' (of course it would not be called this.)
Or is anyone interested in helping me with a site called this? I could host the site (until it got slashdot'd
Anybody have any other good ideas, I think something like this could really work, we wouldn't really alienate them or anything.
--Brian McManus
This could only happen in the states.. in Sweden this stuff wouldnt be allowed.. It seems like the guys that makes these descicions have problems with finding the real problem and makes these weird things up just to look like they are acctualy doing something. And one question.. Could you just refuse to sign the paper`? If not what would happen then?
- "May the force be with you..."
I attend an International Baccalaureate high school in central Florida. The school is set up on the campus of a regular high school except the IB students have separate classes except for electives, and the IB school has separate administration. All extra-curricular activities are done through the regular high school.
The great thing about being at an IB school (I'm not sure if all IB schools are like this) is that the administration and teachers truly care about the students. Most of the time, the students are committed to getting an education and the teachers are committed to giving the students that education. The administration is also very helpful to any student who has a need. The guidance counselor (who, incidentally is named Katz) is quite knowledgable and certainly knows what she's doing, considering she's got a doctorate in curriculum resources.
The IB school is also quite populated with geeks, as would be expected, which is proving to be a great experience for me. My parents sent me to a private school for elementary and junior high, which was a good thing, considering the crappiness of the public schools in my area, but the school was a "rich-kids" school and I didn't fit in to that group really well. At IB, I'm finally getting to attend school with other people who see the world in much the same way that I do. I also do not feel like the teachers are trying to turn me into a mindless sheep, but that they are truly trying to make me and every other student in IB think independently.
I've read almost all of the commentary to this article, and I'm feeling very lucky that I have the ability to have this experience in high school. I'm not trying to gloat over anyone by saying all of this, even though it may sound that way. It is my sincere hope that "normal" high schools can look at the model IB has set up, not just academically but in their attitude towards the students, and see the kind of quality people that are coming out of it.
Maybe it's the result of four years being coached in cross country by a government teacher, but the only thing that solves problems is effort, on an individual basis.
.org work? Hard to tell. Probably not. Would an .org geared directly towards geeks be better? Maybe my girlfriend would be a better arbiter of that question. I went to a gifted middle (jr. high) school, and i came into high school mostly insulated from bullies, with a strong network of geeky friends. She didn't. (and i'm not advocating gifted schools by saying this. it does not nescecarily make life easier, especially after leaving them)
.org wouldn't work as well as a natural relationship, because a solid friendship with someone who's been through it, or is somehow past it has to start out on equal footing (i.e. not with the understanding that the other person is somehow troubled). Of course that brings us back to the question of how does this take off.
Would an
We have a strong friendship (and a romantic relationship beside) because she could trust me; I treat her like a person who had some bad stuff happen to her, not a charity case. I know what she means when she says i've been a stabilizing influence on her life, but I don't think of her in those terms.
My gut tells me that an
In that respect, even if it can't do the most possible good, a network better than nothing, unless there are real mental health problems. Most of the school shooters this profile is aimed at likely have them, and would be better found with the MMPI (a psych. test geared towards finding personality disorders) and not this contrived garbage. They need professional help most importantly, but also having a geek-peer wouldn't hurt.
In a situation like this, better than nothing is still better. Guess that means it's worth a try.
__
alt.geek
One might ask the same about birds. What ARE birds? We just don't know.
Trouble is, real criminal profilers don't use checklists. And the FBI oughta know that -- it was their own Robert Ressler who pioneered the science of criminal profiling. (Television brought us a rather good example of criminal profiling Sunday night, on the X-Files, as Frank Black worked a profile for Fox Mulder.)
The trouble with checklists is, as many people have observed here, people who qualify for one point often qualify for lots of others simply because of their lifestyle... and it doesn't indicate anything about their potential criminality. You can't go "Oh, that person scores 8 out of 10 and therefore they're trouble"... it fails dismally. ('course you can predict goths and geeks that way, since Gothness and Geekery are constants, not actions of the moment.)
And what good is a prediction device that DOESN'T WORK? A profiler that accidentally flags innocent people definitely DOESN'T WORK because it wastes your energy targeting and protecting from people who are not a threat. If your purpose is to identify potentially violent people, then it's crucial that you screen out people who are harmless as quickly as possible, regardless of how weird they are. You don't have time to watch them.
Both Robert Ressler and Gavin DeBecker emphasize that context and intuition are keys to predicting violence. People always ask them to reduce it to a checklist, and they reply that it doesn't work that way. (Short of having a master profiler on staff, about the best you can do is automate the task using some sort of expert-system software. Yeah. Mosaic.)
You'd think a checklist about dealing with stalkers would say "Never turn your back to them" and "never get between them and who they're stalking"... but when a stalker was harassing my friend, I did both of those at once. Why? Because I used context and intuition - and certainly not a checklist - to figure out exactly what his threat level and intentions were at the moment. He has potential for violence... but he wasn't going to be violent right then, and I could see that. (I'd also read The Gift of Fear, Gavin DeBecker's great book on threat assessment in everyday life.)
By the way... as regards Gavin DeBecker and Mosaic-2000, I paraphrase the Emir of Kuwait (as re: the United States): "If there is to be one person doing threat assessment software, thank God it is Gavin DeBecker." I believe DeBecker Gets It. He understands the difference between freaks and threats, and he stands the best chance of anyone of developing software which also does. (Remember he's been writing expert-system software for over 10 years, to protect celebs, political figures, judges, battered women... and none of those versions of Mosaic are designed to descriminate against freaks... because his customers for those versions don't have any agenda about ostracizing geeks, they just want their principal protected.)
So if Mosaic-2000 has the same "neutrality" as its predecessors, it could be best friend to freaks, geeks and Goths, because it'll impartially exonerate them, and in so doing, slap school administrators right in the face of their prejudices.
Well I must say I did very well on this test. Three of the questions I aswered yes to. That must mean I'm a killer. You better watch out for me I might come to your school and go on a mass killing spree. Yet I've never been known to seek violence as a way to solve my problems. But this test says I would so therefor you better lock me up and throw away the key. And even though I'm a smarter than avavrage person who excels in school, you should destory my education by putting my in jail. Who knows by the time I acully got out of jail maybe I would go on a mass killing spree. If I'm going to get accused of something I didn't do I might as well do it
I am 16, represent the story's characteristics, and hate school. Not a good combo eh? So what did I do? Quit school :)
The principal said I cant get a good job without at least a high school diploma... and uh. he was WRONG!! (cought you buy surprise eh?)... Now I am making 30/hr...
The kid who is accused of the school shootings in Taber, Alberta last spring was hospitalized last week for a heart problem. He underwent surgery on Saturday and suffered complications and is currently in a coma.
Ideology is for ideots.
So I guess the people who created this profile are those who have lots of ordinary friends, play sedate card games, accept all they are told, have a perfect family life and under normal intelligence.
I had to do some because that's (or that was) the way they recrute you in France in the Army.
Oh well, I failed... below average intelligence. Not because I deliberately tried to fail them, more because they are designed for mainstream thinking and that's something I don't have... little squares, numbers, letter series, tree drawing, all looks like the same crap to me.
Well, that didn't prevent me from doing a PhD, just prevented me from doing something really stupid.
About your marks going down and stuff, well, the system sucks. It took you some time to discover it, but same story here, you'll just have to live with it.
Maths/physics/hard-core-science are the only things left that are of some value in education, because it's supposed to teach you some logic, anyway you look at it. You can look at it your very own specific way and still get to the answer, because that's the way maths work,,, that is if your teacher is worth two tosses.
For swords, I was more into two handed hammers, when I was playing ADD in the Alsacian forest with my other looser friends... Ahhhhh brings back memories :~)
Don't be too bitter, it's not worth it. Keep a low profile, and you'll have a chance to get out of it alive.
---
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
kick @ss! i scored 100% on that test.
i'm suprised that there was no mention as to the type of music.
hrmm, i havn't heard any mention of that test mentioned at my school, but needless to say, if my counsoler wants to meet with me any time in the next little while i'm gonna be VERY annoyed. problably to the point of telling her that she should stick the test in a place that the sun dun shine.
pest
I wonder how Einstein would have scored on this "test" ?
I don't think Katz is identifying "educators" with "classroom teachers". Teachers are generally low person on the educational totem pole, with little influence on policy. Most criticism I've ever read of "educators" - including this article - is referring to principals, counselors, curriculum facilitators, district officials, state administrators, federal commissioners... the whole 9/10ths of the iceberg of "education" that takes place in offices rather than classrooms.
There are some things very wrong with the way teachers are taught, hired, and retained in the US public schools, but teachers generally have more sense than to promulgate "profiles" that tell them victims of bullies are just as dangerous as the bullies. But they're not the group with the political power in schools.
The gifted and talented program here in Aus. had the same PC pressures applied.
The program is now limited to one school per district, and called "Opportunity Classes", but uis still running. Any parents in Aus should ask about this at your local school. I should know, my eldest daughter has just been accepted....
We are now moving house and putting all the kids into this school so that they can also get a chance to benefit. A part of that decision was, funnily enough, the fact that my son was getting badly bullied at school ! He wouldn't tell us what all the bruises were, but we eventually found out and approached the school.
The net result ?....*Nothing* the bullies (up to 4 yrs older !) were spoken to ! Well thanks a bunch for that.
The most frustrating thing as a parent is the complete inability to take action to help. Once they are inside the school gates much of a parents access is restricted and procedures (ineffectual) must be followed.
Hence the new school...voting with our feet !
Life is just a bowl of All Bran - Small Faces
This works the same way, almost anyone can fit the profile, so it's great for getting at people you find undesirable for other reasons. If they fit the profile, you can just say, "I have no problem with Movementarians, I don't consider them scary religious fanatics following a morally wrong religion. But heck, Sam here fits the profile, that's why I'm sending him of to student re-education camp 11131. If he happens to decide to give up his heathen ways... well..."
*Movementarian references courtesy of Matt Groening, insert any "undesirable" group in their place to get full effect...
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Parents are active in the anti-gun movement.
If you look at the shooters, you'll find that most of them fit that item.
Merely anti-gun parents insulate their children against the realities of the use of firearms. So they get their ideas from the media and their peers - both of whom tend to substitute fantasy for facts. Active anti-gun campaigners go farther, by feeding the kid fantasies of their own.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
lets fund the football team, give them jerseys, and all that stuff...academic team(which im on), they want t-shirts, what are they nuts!
paraphrased from actual events
icq:=22921393;
but it's a big IF, IMHO.
+&x
A LARGE percentage of my time online is spent convincing friends that life is really worth living, that their adult lives won't have to be like this, and that if they can only survive a few more years, they will never have to come back again.
/.ers, in case you feel the need to deprive me of even more of my "spare" time) but I don't think something advertized to guidance counselors is really the right answer. People can't be pushed into accepting something like this, which is what may happen if we give schools what they will see as an easy way of "curing" every kid who dresses oddly and plays Quake.
I'm willing to help anyone who needs me, (yes, this does include random
*wondering how much it would cost to put ads in the back of Fantasy and Science Fiction magazine* In any case, I'm all for this as long as it'll be done correctly. Now, if they don't need me at the teen suicide hotline right now...
Marissa
As far as I'm concerned.... the reason there's so much
hate and misery among the geeks is that we have to live
in a society of morons that come up with this crap.
Is it just me... or has the IQ per capita gone down drastically
in the last 20 years?
Try growing up in the school system of rural PA with an exceptional
IQ.
Yes... I played with explosives, owned guns and basically fit the profile at age 13. The only reason
I never killed anyone is because I knew that was something
that was way out of line. Just not something you do.
Kinda glad I was raised that way, aren't you?
Get the morons outta the fast lane... they're clogging traffic. *sigh*
Friends don't let friends buy Compaq's. (Dell/Gateway... same same) You want a good computer? Build it yourself.
yes,yes,yes,yes,sometimes,no,no,hell yes
I guess I am a homisital mainiac, who whats to be the frist to die, (place eval laugh here)
The greatest foil to a manipulator is people who think for themselves.Could it be that there is a fear of discovery in the system?This sort of tactic lends itself to utter dishonesty among relations and drives wedges of distrust and accusation between groups lending itself to even more prejudicial behaviour.
you wrote:
*sigh* Someone remind me why I live in the US?
Because the US is the root of a great many problems, and you are among the best problem solvers to have ever lived. The only thing missing is the true strong heart of personal freedom.
The fictions of the elite and powerful can be mesmerizing to the people of an emerging empire. The hypnotic mass-media define and refine our daily issues, playing our tastes and desires like toy violins.
It seems to me that the US attention span is in a state of chaos. All we can do is our small part, drink less coffee, and don't feed the monkey.
!!! AND STOP THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION !!!
--------
Yeah, I'm a Mac programmer. You got a problem with that?
-- thinkyhead software and media
If there is anyone reading this and is feeling emotionally troubled and would like to talk to someone who has been in similar situations and would like to help others through it email me.
Kspett
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Ignore your rights and they go away.
I agree with you whole heartedly about our societies currently "punk" kids. I also think that
they are a very accurate display of the current state of our society. I think it is a result of generations of kids not being listend to, being told that eventually they'll get it, or one of these day's you'll realize.... Now they've given up, acting out in the only other way's that they know. I think many of the ideas kids have about right and wrong should be heeded because they have not yet been conformed or "tainted", if you will, by the "system" (i know it's a worn out buzzword). But then agian i'm still a punk teenager who will eventually understand that i was wrong, but for now i'm not buyin it.
And fortunately the current Supreme Court is getting better about realizing that the constitution does count. Despite some folks bitching and whining about Thomas and Scalia they're about as libertarian as can be found in recent (50) years on the court. I just hope that Bush (G.W.) can find somebody as libertarian as them when he gets his chance.
rodent...
rodent...
Tactical nuclear weapons are a viable alternative!
Hey, did you see that Global TV special on the so-called "Brain Drain?"
I watched bits and pieces, but those types of shows always piss me off.
It seems to me that they never mentioned that fact that the US has over 10x the population of Canada, and therefore would statistically have more companies and more jobs. I mean, duh!
I hate those "scare" specials.
I can't see myself leaving Toronto any time soon. It's so nice living in a city where you don't need a car, and can live close enough to the city centre without living in a dangerous neighbourhood.
Pope
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Contrary to many of the posts on this thread, it is possible to get help without being subjected to reprogramming. You have to control the context and make your own choices about it, however, and that is precisely the issue. Kids don't have the right or the voice to control their fate once they are tagged in this way. This involuntary intervention is what leads to the mind-death/personality destruction (religious addiction, twelve-step addiction, etc.) described in some of these posts and its true that this is often considered a successful outcome. The other possibility is the violent rejection of these misguided attempts at help and the vigorous, sometimes equally destructive defense of self which ensues. I took the latter course. I made it. More than a few I knew are dead, or the moral equivalent.
The first step was to recognize that drinking was killing me. No treatment, I just woke up one morning with the tangible realization that I would be dead in months if I didn't stop. The second step, more elusive, was to recognize that the pot was keeping me numb to what was really going on. It helped at first because I could take the halting initial steps toward recovery without really feeling the slings and arrows.
Recovery involves sucking it up, eating pride, letting the anger die, ignoring blame, ignoring everything that does not lead up and out; the single-minded pursuit of self-respect. It consists in the simplest achievements and taking what pride you can in them: I fed myself today without stealing, I'm making rent. Hit the first tier of Maslow's hierarchy and work your way up. There is a gutful of bile and humiliation to eat along the way. But by then, it was no longer a National Merit Scholor washing dishes in a Lebanese restaurant at 27, it was just another case study trying to get his life out of the gutter.
Hold a job, key skill there. Next, find a way to make a relationship work, but not until you can look yourself in the mirror without loathing. You can learn to love yourself through another, but not if you haven't gotten past the self-loathing.
Then, and maybe only then, you might be ready for some constructive therapy, on your terms, with a professional who knows the limits of his craft and respects your sense of self. I had a son February last and I didn't want to inflict my shit on him. I can tell you that its been eight years since I took the first baby steps out of the ditch I was sleeping in. I've got a wife, a kid, two cars and a mortgage. I just busted into the IT group at my employer after five years of setting type. I am back in school part-time, teaching myself computing on weekends (Thank you, Linus). I can tell you that I feel like I am only just starting to deal with what was really going on all those years ago.
illegitimii non ingravare
Usually boys of average or above-average intelligence. I'm 17 and not a guy...but they told me my IQ is over 150, so, perhaps I fit somewhat this description...
;]
Often loners, or have small circle of friend who are outsiders.Well, yes, that fits me pretty well. I geek about with a bunch of techies.
Experience unstable self-esteem. Don't you find it ironic that the greatest thinkers of all time question everything and are often in turmoil? Freedom comes with a price; freedom from being a sheep is no exception.
Often fascinated by cults, Satanism, weapons, themes of violence and death. I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about what other people are thinking. I did a term report last year on several different worldviews. As for weapons? There's nothing wrong with hosing down a dead monitor with gasoline and trying to ignite something by firing BB's at it. It's geeky and cool, and doesn't hurt anyone. Death? Death is part of life.
Experience a decline in schoolwork and marks. Decline since when? Not that I know of.
Come from dysfunctional homes. Both sides of my family have manic depression. Enough said.
Have experience with chronic bullying and drug use.Again, which end of the bullying are we talking about here? As for drugs, I suppose I do try to get caffeine pills and Mountain Dew from my older friends (who happen to have money...)
Engage in attention-seeking behavior, and don't accept criticism. I accept criticism from those who have credibility. As for attention-seeking, the trenchcoat, chains, and (formerly, regrettably) purple hair are not blantant attempts at getting attention. As a geek girl I'd say that the cheerleaders who come to school in tight jeans and midriff tanktops get a lot more "attention" than I do. But they are encouraged because it's NORMAL.
There comes a point when one becomes self aware. If no one else around you is self aware, you are faced with no other choice but to break off, to become free from them in any way you can. For me, it happened when I was 10 and my mother had a stroke. None of my classmates at the time thought much more about anything than sleepovers, sports, and hairstyles. While they were talking about their new Jonathan Taylor Thomas posters, I was boiling inside, everything I believed on the brink of shattering.
And I'm told by my principal and teachers that I'm just trying to get attention when I dress differently.
No.
I broke off from the norm years ago because the norm would not listen to me. I did what I had to; being on the "outside" is now a part of me. You can dress me in Tommy Hilfiger or Gap or whatever; you can dye my hair blonde, you can wedge my feet into tiny sandals and take away my computer; but you cannot change who I am.
Who does this hurt and why? It hurts everyone involved. Families, the geeks themselves, and eventually the world might be missing out on some of the greatest minds of all time. And why? Because the government legislates that some things are OK for some, while others aren't.
I'm not trying to promote religious jihad here..there are enough flames on Slashdot as it is. I'm saying that in order for people to function without chaos, there must be a set of absolute rules. Not this pseudo-bureaucracy, not anarchy, not communism--we've been shown already that they don't work.
I simply cannot understand why anyone here would complain about this injustice done to geeks, yet flame anyone citing possible good in posting the Ten Commandments at a school. Absolutes sound mightily good right now to me. I know I'm tired of being at the short end of the administrative stick.
Just my $.02.
Angry IT woman in big clompy boots. And talking lint!.
I think the fascination with death, violence and blood in these killers is more important than all of the other attributes. Sure we all felt unpopular, picked on and ostracized for being smarter than normal and introspective, but did most of you fantasize about guns and death? I can tell you that I only did once, and somewhat scared myself doing it. Young people who continually obsess about these themes probably should be noted and helped, because they've got issues.
I'd love to hear from all of you about whether you agree. Is it a normal geek thing to be fascinated/obsessed with guns, death and violence? Or is that the line that needs to be drawn in the sand for these Mosaic people so they don't target just plain geeks in their profile?
p.s.
I don't know how much you've read of the Kip Kinkel case, but being from Portland I've read a fair bit. From what I remember, Kip Kinkel wasn't a great student, and in fact that accounted for a lot of his rage. From his parents (both schoolteachers) he felt pressure to do well in school, but likely due to some learning disabilities, couldn't live up to their expectations. Recently in his sentencing trial he talked about the voices in his head, indicating possible mental illness as the cause for his shooting spree.
i don't know why my school was so good (although the town was a relatively wealthy one), and i also don't know why so many schools are so bad. but the fact that there are some schools that get it right gives me hope that, eventually, they all will. the key is to (1) identify what works, and (2) convince people that it's worth paying for.
In my personal opinion, I think these problems just kinda started, as a random thing, by now it's evolved onto a new level. Now instead of some kids actually being "pushed" over the edge, the standard of today, by the time I get out of high school, and I have kids, instead they'll be "shown" the edge.. Since I too will encourage exactly this same thing, I suspect that if this keeps up, from age 1 my kids will be targeted, and they'll know it. Basically, They will be told their whole lives that they have a high potential rate of someday blowing up a football field during practice and walking into school shooting - What do you think will be running through their minds? 'Well, I really feel like killing these *idiots!* right now. Dad says it's wrong, but everyone else says it's what I'm bound to do at some point or another.' Currently I have the 'my dad says it's wrong' planted in my head. Would that added factor of 'Im bound to do it' be what might someday push many kids - including mine - over the edge?
Keep us updated on your island, sounds good to me.
It is the "average" or "above average" indication that surprises me.
I gonna think that this can be a tool to spot promising minds exploiting teachers' stupidity.
What better mind than that of outcasts, ready to leave all for a more comfortable position, without all the bells and whistles required to recruit an happy chap?
I really think this can be a second purpose, so that NSA can file more data about you.
Greetings from Italy!
OK, as pointed out, you focus on the 'geeks' and other students with high potential for murder.. you weed out a group of 15 students at a school with high potential.. what do you do? Hmm. Well, now you've just alarmed the entire school, and you really can't do jack about preventing anything here, you just know it could be an eminant problem. Think of Y2K.. contrasting this with Y2k - it's a little problem. Well, a couple of idiots get ahold of it, gossip happens, everyone knows, it's blown way out of preportion.. That's really all that could happen under this system. Why not instead have profiling of school admin, counselors, and anyone else currently screwing people up. Counselors can't begin to do their job, they just flat out don't understand this, and instead they just alienate you more with stupid meaningless mumbojumbo.. why not find out who would be *good* at doing these jobs, throw out the current system of "well, you see, everyone at this school is x-race, we're required by law to hire someone of another race now. Let's hire joe over here, even though he's clueless..." I don't see this as a problem much at my current school, everyone there seems to have some level of compitance, but my last school they were horrible, they couldn't have possibly gotten to that position with skill and ability. Profiling needs to be done for educational officials - then you can expose who is best, get qualified employees, and at the same time, even *help* the actual problem instead of fueling it. Good idea me thinks.
If you are profiled as a potentional murderer, then I'm pretty sure they won't solve the problem by showering the subject with love and such. I think they'd sooner want to get rid of the risk and throw you out of their school! Besides, the methods they use for profiling are just _wrong_, it's inacurate and ethically wrong.
Besides murdering school kids are not the problem, they are the result of _other_ problems. When is america finally going to understand that the whole 'elite', 'jocks' and 'nerds' culture is going to create these murderers because of the stress this is going to put on children. It's wrong damnit!
*gagh* Why won't the US government and parents start out with using common sense. I can understand fully that a worried parent is going to demand action, but it just doesn't work like that. You cannot fix these things without going to the source..
You really think that it is difficult to get hold of a Firearm in the UK?
I could buy one in several pubs I frequent, I know the right people, through going to school with them, or friends of them.
I have been offered sawn off shotguns by people who only know me by association with their friends/contacts, normally around the same time as I was propositioned to buy/sell drugs, normally in quantities that leave me open to a jail sentence for possession with intent to supply.
BTW I am a 30 year old programmer for an internet company based out side of any major city (I have no criminal record, and I don't plan on getting one and I fit the profile perfectly), and all the offers propositioned came during a quiet night drinking in a little market town where I currently live, miles from the Trouble spots that commonly get mentioned in Liverpool, or Manchester, or London, or Cardiff, or Edinborough.
I have an interest in Air-rifles and Crossbows, and can regularly be found online, either in Newsgroups, on Slashdot, or playing the demo of Q3A online
A Skoda is for life, not for casual humour.
Oh please, don't bring Kevin Mitnick into this. He's nothing but a low life who deserves everything he is getting.
This article begins like one of those "spot-the-error" math proofs. It makes one illogical assumption, then logically derives everything else from that. Why is the list in your article the definition of a geek? I'm a conservative christian, interested in sports, have very good self-esteem, a 3.9 GPA, and have friends who are not outsiders, yet I consider myself a geek. The most prominant geek in our school is nearly blind, very popular, and has the run of the school. The only reason his grades are down is because of the services for the blind people screwing up. I don't mean to be rude, Mr. Katz, but do try to check your assumptions before running with them, ok? I'm going into the Slashdot preferences now, and disabling your articles. Please do email me if you manage to write a particularly enlightening one, all right?
I was trying to use the past tense in most of that. I am much better now thank you. Naturally I do have some compuntion against not killing folk, we may not have guns, but there are cricket bats, kitchen knives, bare hands, etc. My point really is that no one ever helped, I had to go through a lot on my own, I beleive that I would have gone through just as much, if not more in the US- with the added availability of easy solutions may of made me headline news. Both of our societies need to help those you, like me know they need(ed) help but had no where to turn
J-aims
--
Yo, whatever happened to peas? Join T( H)GS
Okay, the last one may be stretching it a little bit, but there are a lot more railfan videos and toy trains marketed to the Great Unwashed Masses (tm).
Yeah, I fit most of the geek profile as presented in the article, but the way I see it, my friends (the SQUIDs [Society for Quality Understanding of Imaginary Dimensions] of Mira Costa HS) and I were trendsetters. It will be interesting to see what new trends today's high schoolers introduce in the next 10-20 years.
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Sean Lamb
"A day without laughter is a day wasted." -- Groucho Marx
This is one of the funniest damn things that ever happened when I was in high school. Another was the banning of clothes with athletic teams' logos as a "proactive" measure against possible gang affiliations. (That was at North.)
Fortunately, this was all long before the horrible massacre at Columbine, so no one recognized wearing black trenchcoats as a sign of homicidal tendencies. Half of my friends wore black trenchcoats and hung out in front of Spaceport (the kickin' local arcade) during most of their free time... er, that is, until the university bought it and shut it down, because they'd discovered that drug deals were going on there. Motherfuckers.
Then there was the time when they illegally searched a bunch of people no a supposed anonymous tip in the People's Park (which was where everyone went to hang out the demise of Spaceport). The chief of police lost his job over that one. Motherfuckers.
Ah, Bloomington. What it really needed were two things:
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
In sum, sociopathy is a recognized psychological condition that a very few people have. It is not a political label or even a set of actions, but rather an attitude. Sociopaths are missing an essential part of the human soul, the ability to empathize. All the people we are talking with and about--Amphigory, other abused children speaking out here, probably even the Columbine killers--are/were troubled but essentially normal. Sociopaths are another question altogether.
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Theft of freely earned property, "redistribution of wealth" in leftist language, always involves force. Societies are either free and law abiding or not. Decent laws disallow practices that directly harm others, and all other practices and uses of properties are allowed. The left seeks not only to limit legitimate uses of property, but also to steal it. National Socialism is Leftist, don't get confused. They simply have a racial slant.
Back on topic. Beware of people who prommise to protect you. Mosaic will be a useful tool for the left one day. The ultimate property is control of citizens.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Knives, fist fights, and the like are all we had until recently, too. In the worst schools you would hear of a gun or two showing up but rarely would it be used.
The Australian school system is a kettle about to boil over just like here. They're system of "teaching" is no different nor the content. When kids get board trouble starts. When teaching ceases to capture a student's attention and have anything meaningful or depth, the student gets board!
Today, if a student gets straight A's and speaks properly and shows initiative, that student is singled out and tormented. If a student picks on or bullies another student he is patted on the back. This only instills a desire to increase the torments for more gratification. Soon, however, the bully has reached a point where he is a part of a dangerous outsider group. The only way to increase the feeling of belonging and getting more pats on the back is to escelate the bullying. This continues until you get a Columbine reaction. The student has become so disliked that he has built up an incredible level of hate for anyone connected with the school.
Then, boom.
But instead of looking for those types, the feds look for people with thought.
The sort of profiling that is necessary has been around since Adam and Eve. It's called common sense.
Woaaa, Nellie!
We're not a democracy! We're a Republic! You can't use the two in a comparison like this.
Further, the only thing making our Constitution "antiquated" is the foolishness of our leaders and society. The Constitution doesn't give us our freedoms it merely guarantees that our freedoms won't be trampled on by a tyranical government. Our freedoms actually come from God.
Albert Einstien
Thomas Edison
Charles Darwin
Juat about anyone else in the world who is smart and creative.
But then these are the people who are a threat to the establishment.
yeah
gr33tz 2 d3v0
http://gammatron.weblogger.com
You'll also note that I qualified "antiquated" in my original post with "a bit." Many of those things have been fixed by amendments (13, 14, 15, and 19, for example).
You are, of course, correct that the Consitution does not create our freedoms, but merely protects them. However, this is again simply a matter of semantics. A government that does not protect freedoms can be seen as not granting them, and a government that does protect freedoms can be seen as providing them. My point stands.
Powers&8^]
P.S. Our freedoms may be inherent, but that doesn't mean they come from a deity. =)
Powers&8^]
[...] _Enders Game_, where children have to wear "monitors" to track their activities and actions. Ender puts up with the bullying when people are watching (i.e. the monitor is on) but when it is removed ends up killing his tormentor.
If I remember the beginning of Ender's Game correctly (I happened to re-read it a few months ago, but I could still be fuzzy on this), your summary is not quite right.
I believe it was only the children who were considered to be good candidates for military training (Battle School) who wore the monitors. I don't think it was completely clear how this was determined: it was probably based on some sort of earlier screening process, though I guess it could have been that everyone had them until they were disqualified. In Ender's case the earlier performance of his older siblings was also a good predictor. The monitor itself was not a "Big Brother"-type thing so much as a screening process for finding good potential soldiers (and humanity was at the time fighting for its existence -- it was necessary).
It was not so much that Ender "put up with" the bullying because he was being watched, and then cut loose as soon as he was free. Rather, Stilson and the other bullies left him alone (relatively) while he had the monitor, because they knew that they could not hurt him without getting caught, though at the same time they grew to dislike him even more him because of it. Then, when it was removed, they knew they could attack him with impunity. They did so, and he fought back. Hard. His philosophy of "hurt your attacker so bad that he won't ever hurt you again" is exactly what the military was looking for, and it's what made him so good at what he had to do, even though he didn't like it.
David Gould
David Gould
main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
I begin to wonder about a few thinsg regarding idle hands being the devils workshops. looks like the hands of the FBI have been very idle of late. Case in point, a young teen in highschool being constantly ridiculed for his "abnormal intelligence" and coming from a disfunctional family may already be considered dangerous. Well, according to the profile test, in 1983 I would have met all those criteria! Consider, I had an IQ well into the low 150's, had very few friends, just wanted to get by because there were no real oportunities for me, and already had a penchant for games like D&D and regularly used weapons (firearms) on various outings (I am a lifetime member of the NRA since age 13 too). Couple this with the fact that I was labled as "trouble from day 1" by some highschool administrators, and viewed with distrust by most of the other students in my class, you;'d get an idea of how I felt. Now, here I am, at age 34, blind, and unable to gain meaningful employment. If you think that the geek profile would have suggested I was dangerous in highschool, you should look at the results such a profiling says about me now. By all accounts, I would currently be labled a "terrorist threat" to the nation. As the old saying goes; "Something is fishy in denmark". I leave you folks to ask the questions that you need to ask. IMHO, I think that profiling of this nature creates unfounded fears and paranoia and is deliberately invasive on the part of our government. Just so you know, I was part of a small circle of friends (before things went to hell in a handbasket). they were called the viper militia (or Viper Team) of Phoenix Arizona. Go figure? proudhawk@proudcyber2k.net
Understanding is much like a 3-edged-sword. in this: there are always 2 sides and the truth.