U.S. Playstation 2 Linux Hits the Streets.

msolnik writes: "The U.S. version of Playstation 2 Linux is getting ready to hit the streets. Here is an review of the first public beta. It really looks sweet and comes with a lot of nice hardware. I can't wait for it to start selling -- finally I will have a legit reason to buy a PS2."

Comments

Next computer.

[_Knots]

Ok, who thinks they just found their next computer? I know I've been waiting for this to happen for a long while so I could finally justify the cost of one or more PS2s (mmm, USB networking) - it's not a toy, it's my development station! Err... yeah! ^^;;

Ain't Linux great?

--Knots

Re:Next computer.

[beable]

How does the PS2 compare to a PC? What would be the specifications of a PC with similar power to a PS2?

Re:Next computer.

[child_of_mercy]

RAM is low, but fast, processor is geared up to do visuals.

the funny thing is that where most less powerful machines struggle with grapical environments these should be fine.

regular comparisons wouldn't really apply.

benchmarks would be fascinating.

it won't outperform a new Athlon

but it will cost 1/10th

so price / performance will be sweet!

Re:Next computer.

[billcopc]

If a linux-powered PS2 costs 1/10th of an Athlon where you live, then either the PS2's are dirt cheap or the Athlons are outrageously expensive. Here in Canada, PS2's still cost 450$ (CDN), while an Athlon 1.4ghz goes for 169$, a board is 99$, etc.. you can build a decent box for about 400$ CDN, less than a PS2's going price.

In this case, price/performance on the PS2 is crap for anything but games.

Retail Price and Goodies

[msolnik]

The retail price for one of these is expected to be $150 from what I hear. I wouldn't say its a very bad price. Its also supposed to come with some other nice goodies including an emulator for x86 only supposed to be used for coding heheh :).

Re:Retail Price and Goodies

[karm13]

$150 sounds fair. after all, it includes a 40GB HDD.

Re:Retail Price and Goodies

[iapetus]

If you're thinking of using that emulator for anything other than coding, give up now. You aren't going to come close to running PS2 games in real time in an emulator for a long time. Just look at some of the insane bandwidth accessing the scratch RAM in the GS, or the capabilities of VU0 and VU1.

I wonder if Sony...

[Scoria]

... took any tips from NetBSD. :P

Re:I wonder if Sony...

[VFVTHUNTER]

Actually NetBSD took tips from Sony. The NetBSD folk in Japan ported NetBSD to the PS2 from PS2Linux. Thats why NetBSD won't work in the US yet.

USB?

[autopr0n]

If you're going to use the built in networking on the PS2, why use USB? The thing comes with firewire ports! Thats more bandwidth then 100baseT ethernet :)

Re:USB?

[_Knots]

Is it possible to do n-way (n>2) networking with firewire? I was intending to use USB because each unit has two USB ports - so each unit can be daisychained to two others (granted, I suppose they'd have to be set up as routers).

OTOH, this is all roughly moot, because as the article points out the kits come with ethernet connectors - we could always just use those for their intended purpose. ^_^

--Knots

Re:USB?

[domc]

Yes, Firewire can be used to network couputers daisy-chain style. I'm not sure if you can do such a thing with USB.

domc

Re:USB?

[domc]

Well...since the Firewire comes with the PS2 the cost really isn't an issue. It's a moot point anyway though since it also comes with 10/100 ethernet.

domc

Re:USB?

[autopr0n]

Is it possible to do n-way (n>2) networking with fire wire? I was intending to use USB because each unit has two USB ports - so each unit can be daisy chained to two others (granted, I suppose they'd have to be set up as routers).

I'm not actually sure you can daisy chain USB right out of the box like that. Maybe with some extra software.

On the other hand, you can plug as many boxes in with Firewire if you get a hub. Gran Tourismo 3 actually allows you to link up 6 PS2s (the most number of cars on the road in the game) via Firewire/iLink if you get a hub.

But yeh, people are probably just going to use the Ethernet that comes with the Linux kit :P

Re:USB?

[autopr0n]

As to 1394 networking being more bandwidth than 100mbit networking that is incorrect. 1394 does have a 400mbit bus but due to all of the overhead involved it can only pump out about 70mbits of actual data per second.

Wow, that sucks. I assume thats if you're trying to network, not for applications like A/V, right?

And don't forget that Ethernet has a lot of overhead too, especialy on large networks.

Re:USB?

[VFVTHUNTER]

This is not such a great idea. RJ45 has eight wires; USB has positive and negative. So your CPU has to do the conversion, which of course costs you CPU time, which in turn slows down your machine.

You have to buy the whole kit anyway, no use in not using everything you have to pay for.

Re:USB?

[zeno_2]

You could always buy a firewire hub and hook them up that way..

Re:USB?

[newbiescum]

If I recall correctly, you can actually link 7 PS2s in GT3. One is a spectator, and the other 6 are players. I don't know too many houses with 7 TVs unless you get friends to bring them over, but I assume the feature works as advertised.

Re:USB?

[Wesley Felter]

As to 1394 networking being more bandwidth than 100mbit networking that is incorrect. 1394 does have a 400mbit bus but due to all of the overhead involved it can only pump out about 70mbits of actual data per second.

I think you are incorrect; check out some actual numbers for 1394 networking.

Re:USB?

[Wesley Felter]

USB networking is impossible because each USB port is either a host or device, and there can only be one host on the bus. Since the PS2 is hardwired as a host, you can't connect two PS2s using USB. Also, you'd need a USB A to USB A cable, which doesn't exist (because it would create an invalid bus topology).

I have seen devices that have two device ports and proxy traffic between them to create a USB network, but they're much slower and more expensive than just daisy-chaining with 1394 cables.

There is an extension in the works for USB 2.0 that will allow multiple hosts to network over USB, but by the time it is delivered I suspect 1394 will be pretty entrenched.

Re:USB?

[Mwongozi]

Where I work we have a USB A-to-A cable, but I've never been able to work out what it's for. :P

Re:USB?

[jaavaaguru]

If I could do that, then I could also use an iPod with Linux, right? but the reason the Apple iPod MP3 Player doesnt work (well, the 1st one anyway) is that Linux's FireWire support isn't very much evolved yet. If I had time I would find out how Darwin does it and start trying to get Linux to go the same way.

Re:USB?

[greggman]

Except you can get a USB ethernet adaptor (I have one) therefore you can connect USB to USB you just have to insert an ethernet adaptor on both sides.

Bonus Points

[gabeman-o]

Bonus points for anyone who gets up an Apache web server on their PS2 and posts the url here ;)

Re:Bonus Points

[Ziviyr]

Bonus points for anyone who gets up an Apache web server on their PS2 and posts the url here ;)

Wanna slashdot a PS2 do ya?

Re:Bonus Points

[flacco]

Wanna slashdot a PS2 do ya?

You could always tear out the slash-dotter's heart and show it to him while it's still beating.

No.

[autopr0n]

wouldn't that be more likely to have Linux ported to it? then again, x-box just came out.

The PS2 has been out a lot longer, Had a Linux based development kit, has had a Linux port out in Japan for a while now, oh, and it isn't controlled by a corporation that considers Linux the "number 1 threat".

Sony has been on the Linux bandwagon with the PS2 for a while. Remember they ported this themselves, it's not a hack.

Re:No.

[rnicey]

Of course it's only a matter of time before some clever people do port Linux to XBox. You can hear it now, all the way from the halls of Redmond.

Arrrrrrggggggggghhhhhh! (thud)

Re:No.

[applejacks]

300$ for the console, 150$ for the {Linux 0$, Keyboard 10$, Mouse $7.50, and a 40? gig harddrive $35.00, 100mbit nic $6.25} Then add in your extra controller and memory card. Is the harddrive USB? I don't think firewire is gona be much better. I'd just build a new computer with a Geforce 3 in it. Rich kids and their toys.... l8r

Re:No.

[applejacks]

I forgot something, Its only got 32 Megabytes of ram right? whatever...

Review contents - site /.'ed

[michael.creasy]

A Trolltech employee once said he wouldn't consider Linux a success until his mother was running it. I don't think the Mom Test is necessarily a fair one, but I get his point: When Linux penetrates the average user's home or office, it will have passed a significant milestone. Well until Linux is ready to beat out Microsoft in the desktop, where else can Linux be a useful alternative operating enviornment for the user who is not an expert? The answer is simple - on embedded devices. So you can imagine how cool it is that Sony finally got on the CLUE bus and decided to offer a Linux Kit to the world for its Playstation 2 console unit. Previously it was only available in beta form, for japanese models. The official announcement came via cnn, you can read the article by clicking here. So what does this mean for your typical console gamer or linux enthusiast exactly? In a nutshell it means your Video Game console will also be a valid bonafied NC/AC (Network Computer/Appliance Computer) unit.
The kit consists of:

DVD-ROM containing a Linux Release specifically designed by Sony to boot the PS2
40 GByte Hard Drive

10Base-T/100 Base-TX Ethernet Interface

USB Keyboard

USB Mouse

VGA AV Connector /w HD 15 plus Stereo Audio

PS2 Linux Kit

The DVD that contains linux will ship with many packages you've grown up with linux like:

Linux Kernel

XFree86 (which means practically every single GUI application you can run from a desktop linux machine)

gcc

glibc

XFree86 on PS2

Here are a couple more images of linux running a ps2. On your left is Xscreensaver (not sure which one) and on your right is "gv" running inside WindowMaker.

I didn't list the versions of these packages because simply put, nobody but sony knows what they will decide on at release time. But expect the packages to be up-to-date. Below is the output of dmesg from the Linux Kit running off a japanese version of the playstation 2. How cool is that..

---- begin snippet from /var/log/dmesg ----
Loading R5900 MMU routines.
CPU revision is: 00002e14
Primary instruction cache 16kb, linesize 64 bytes
Primary data cache 8kb, linesize 64 bytes
Branch Prediction : on
Double Issue : on
Linux version 2.2.1 (master@linux) (gcc version 2.95.2 19991024 (release)) #94 Thu Apr 19 12:13:01 JST 2001
no initrd found
Console: colour dummy device 80x25
Calibrating delay loop... 392.40 BogoMIPS
Estimated CPU clock: 294.240 MHz
Memory: 30724k/32760k available (1216k kernel code, 752k data)
Checking for 'wait' instruction... unavailable.
POSIX conformance testing by UNIFIX
PlayStation 2 SIF BIOS: 0200
Linux NET4.0 for Linux 2.2
Based upon Swansea University Computer Society NET3.039
NET4: Unix domain sockets 1.0 for Linux NET4.0.
NET4: Linux TCP/IP 1.0 for NET4.0
IP Protocols: ICMP, UDP, TCP, IGMP
Linux IP multicast router 0.06 plus PIM-SM
Starting kswapd v 1.5
PlayStation 2 device support: GIF, VIF, GS, VU, IPU, SPR
Graphics Synthesizer revision: 00005508
Console: switching to colour PlayStation 2 Graphics Synthesizer 80x28
pty: 256 Unix98 ptys configured
Real Time Clock Driver v1.09
rtc: Digital UNIX epoch (1952) detected
usb.c: registered new driver usbdevfs
usb.c: registered new driver hub
usb.c: registered new driver usb_mouse
usb.c: registered new driver keyboard
usb-ohci.c: USB OHCI at membase 0x1f801600, IRQ 42
usb-ohci.c: GrowLocalMem 64K bytes
usb.c: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
usb.c: USB new device connect, assigned device number 1
hub.c: USB hub found
hub.c: 2 ports detected
RAM disk driver initialized: 1 RAM disks of 10240K size
loop: registered device at major 7
PlayStation 2 IDE DMA driver
hda: ST340823A, ATA DISK drive
ide0 at 0xb4000040-0xb4000047,0xb400005c on irq 41
hda: ST340823A, 38166MB w/1024kB Cache, CHS=4865/255/63, (U)DMA
LVM version 0.8i by Heinz Mauelshagen (02/10/1999)
lvm -- Driver successfully initialized
scsi : 0 hosts.
scsi : detected total.
Partition check:
hda: hda1 hda2
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem) readonly.
Freeing unused kernel memory: 48k freed
usb.c: USB new device connect, assigned device number 2
hub.c: USB hub found
hub.c: 2 ports detected
usb.c: USB new device connect, assigned device number 3
keybdev.c: Adding keyboard: input0
input0: USB HIDBP keyboard
usb.c: USB new device connect, assigned device number 4
input1: USB HIDBP mouse
PlayStation 2 Sound driver
Adding Swap: 136516k swap-space (priority -1)
eth0: MAC address 00:04:1f:ff:fa:bc
eth0: Auto-negotiation complete. 100Mbps Full duplex mode.
PlayStation 2 SMAP(Ethernet) device driver is loaded.

---- end snippet from /var/log/dmesg ----
Now with all this one has to think of what you can't do with a ps2 running linux. Well a couple things actually. Don't expect you can pop in any of your self-made CD's into it. This isn't an OSI issue as much as it is a hardware-level one. The Playstation2's CD-ROM drive is unable to read normal data CD-ROMs. Special Playstation2-CDs can be created so that PCs can read them, but not vice versa, simliar to the GD-ROMs for the Dreamcast that can't be created on a CD-R.

Another common question is how will Linux boot on the Playstation2? All the software in the world, regardless if it's runnable object code or source code with the most advanced compiler, is worthless if it can't be loaded into memory on the target machine and made to execute on the CPU. The perfect Linux system for the Playstation2 wouldn't make any sense at all, if it couldn't be booted.

The boot process is one of the crown jewels of copy-protection in the game console business. Since only the console manufacturer knows how to manufacture bootable media, and probably is the only one with the manufacturing technology, game creators must license the technology. The console manufacturer earns from the royalties for this licensing, not thesale of the hardware. Actually it's very common that the console manufacturer is losing money each and every time one of their consoles is sold. This is how the traditional game business works. Don't expect Sony to give away the secret of how the Playstation2 boot.

Linux will likely not boot directly off a self-made CD-ROM, nor from the optional harddrive unit, since no technical details about the port are currently known except a couple rumors, I'm going to speculate here and list some of the possibilities:

depend on the boot loader (like LILO or grub) stored on a memory card, similar to the DVD player driver updates they distributed early on
require a CD/DVD-ROM sold by Sony as an "authentication" mechanism
require some special hardware so it could be booted from an external source (think of disk-less machines with root over NFS)
only boot from the "official" CD that Sony sells. eg. Custom kernels unsupported. (The freedom to compile a custom kernel and freely boot it is very important. I honestly hope that Sony makes a decision which would be acceptable by the community as well as not risk their business model)
In anycase, any "boot loader" would most likely be proprietary closed-source. We just have to accept this. The BIOS of any common PC that boots the operating system is proprietary, too.

In short, I bought a Sony Playstation 2 unit with no intention of running any OS off it. I purchased it simply because its the coolest console video game unit I've ever seen and the game developement for it will be long-standing. The fact it also acts as a DVD player was a plus for sure. But when they tossed up the idea of throwing Linux on it, obviously because Microsoft's Xbox is going to bridge the gap between PC/console, I see endless possibilities now. Keep in mind this linux kit isn't a 'developers-only' package. This is going to be the interface that every ps2 user who wants to get online or treat his ps2 like a PC, will be using. Alot of wincentric folks are going to see linux for the first time, in all its glory and I wouldn't be suprised if some people will forever associate linux as "that video game OS." Any attention is better than none :-)

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[JabberWokky]

I got in... just tried again, and it's dead. The link to CNN was mentioned... I think it's more informative than the review, but it dosen't seem to be on CNN's scitech page (although there's a Video Game review there).

Anyway, the link is: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/fun.games/10/24/linux .ps2.idg/

Take this in remembrance of me.

--
Evan "the sleep deprived"

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[lightware]

In short, Sony may be the company that finally makes Linux on the desktop a reality.

If that's what you're saying, I agree. And I think it's definitely cool.

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[bobaferret]

My mother has been runing Linux as her home desktop for about 2 years now. KDE, StarOffice and Netscape are all she really uses. She likes it so much that she converted the library that she runs to Linux. And now the entire Institution is switching. And all this in Medellin,Colombia.
I think the Mom test, is a very fair one. I Never get frantic calls anymore or viruses.

just my .01 (adjusted for quality)

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[dasunt]

The boot process is one of the crown jewels of copy-protection in the game console business. Since only the console manufacturer knows how to manufacture bootable media, and probably is the only one with the manufacturing technology, game creators must license the technology. The console manufacturer earns from the royalties for this licensing, not thesale of the hardware. Actually it's very common that the console manufacturer is losing money each and every time one of their consoles is sold. This is how the traditional game business works. Don't expect Sony to give away the secret of how the Playstation2 boot.

Those who don't know their video game legal history are doomed to make stupid comments about it, it seems. In the US, its legal to reverse engineer booting protocols for game consoles, even up to, and including the point, of the console displaying "Licensed Playstation Game", or anything to that effect, as long as it isn't shown that there is a way to make a bootable cartredge/CD that doesn't display that message. I believe the case that determined this was one of the Nintendo-era consoles, the SMS or Genesis, maybe (been a long time since I looked at the cases).

Reverse engineering a console can save a company millions of dollars in licensing fees. There have been several notable legal battles that have determined how far a company can go to make compatible games.

A CD doesn't hide its data well. Even assuming encryption on most of the CD, its probably a relatively simple task to tell where the PS2 is reading from the CD at boot. Moreso, for the information on the CD to be useful, it has to be decrypted somewhere in the PS2 itself. Its very crackable.

Just my (educated) $.02

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[Cyberfox]

Greetings,

Quick note: Genesis was Sega, and the first case in question that I know of was either the NES or SNES, in which EA decided that they had enough of the crap from Nintendo, and released their own games... and were promptly sued. They won, eventually.

That was before the DMCA.

Don't bet on the same legal protections you had in the past, unfortunately. This isn't random bitching about the DMCA, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that the DMCA targets. It'd be nice if Nintendo took EA (a classic reverse-engineering shop) or someone to court over it, via the DMCA, and the reverse engineering shop won, but I wouldn't place money on that battle these days.

As for believing that all boot processes can be faked, that's just not true for the end user. You often must modify the hardware in order to boot your own creations. The end user, for example, to this day STILL can't burn CD-ROM's that are immediately bootable on UNMODIFIED Playstations (used as an example because of the age of the platform). Sure, if you've got the right high-end specific hardware, you can do it. The vast general populace can't, and that includes the vast majority of developers.

As for the decryption crack, all it needs to do is a physical verification of a non-writable portion of the disk before boot, and *poof* you cannot make CD's without very high end equipment. It's not an encryption issue, it's an access-control issue. Most Playstation CD's aren't even encrypted, the data is raw on the disk. (Playing just the Final Fantasy cut scene movies on my PC is fun!) The disk, however, has physical protection that prevents you playing a copy of it, UNLESS you've modified your Playstation to not need that physical protection.

You won't be able to burn a CD or DVD in a consumer burner that will boot on a PS2, unless you've modified your PS2. To the best of my knowledge, the PS2 mods currently available are all still 'unstable', or only allow you to be in one mode (Japanese, American) at a time. That may have changed.

In summary, be careful what comments you call 'stupid'. The boot process IS the crown jewel, the protection enforced IS valuable to the companies, and Sony will NOT give it away. Even if they did, I would still wager that you and I couldn't build media that would boot. Last but not least, legal protections offered in the past may not still be in place, due to the DMCA explicitly outlawing them.

-- Cyberfox!

Re:Review contents - site /.'ed

[AntiTuX]

I've played with one of the ps2 Development tools, they're actually quite interisting. The problem lies in the fact that the ps2 only has 32 megs of ram. That's not a helluvalot, which makes the box kinda useless for anything other than just hacking around. I don't know if you can buy extra ram, or just make shitloads of swapspace for the thing, but it's still one cool hack.

Re:Obligatory AC Post

[3th3rn3t]

Heheheheh, thats a nice idea. Set up a 100-node beowulf cluster and then have SETI@Home run on it. It sounds like a good idea.... come on, wjay cant we all just play GTA3 :)

Anyone got a mirror?

[danaris]

Looks like the site is slashdotted already; anyone got a mirror they want /.ed real fast? I want this: I have a PS2, and would love to get my hands on a Linux distro that runs on it.

By the way, does anyone know if other distros (eg XDarwin) could be ported to PS2, now that this is here?

Dan Aris

This is really cool

[alsta]

And to the people out there thinking that this is stupid, I have but one thing to say. Linux being able to run on such a vast multitude of platforms and different architectures should indeed bear testimony to a truly portable and well designed operating system. It's not about why, but how.

On a more on topic note, I wonder what kind of benefits this would provide to the people with mod chips in their PS2s. Could it possibly put the knowledge about how the PS2 works out in the public domain? And if so, did Sony think about this?

Oh the possibilities... Check out Flight Gear (http://www.flightgear.org) and wonder if that could be made to favorably run on a PS2/Linux machine. GNU PS2 games... Mmmm. And foremost, could this allow for developers to make PS2/Linux a better gaming platform than XBox/WinXB[sic]?

Re:This is really cool

[RogrWilco]

But Microsoft released their XP Embedded.... Surely this could mean that you could have XP running on the X-box, PS2, Gamecube, etc...
Maybe that's going to be the new strategy for market dominance. Why build the X-box when you could just port your OS to the PS3?

This post was intended as a joke and not a market strategy. Any duplication or interpretation of this transmission by Mr. Gates or his subsidiary holdings (including all programmers souls) is in direct violation of the DMCA and will be pursued as such!

Re:This is really cool

[talonyx]

No, it won't let developers make PS2/Linux a better gaming platform. To do that, they would have an extra API/software layer between the game and the hardware, which would slow things down.

XBox can run Linux too, and it's much faster and more powerful. Not only that, but there's a great gaming API already on it - DirectX.

Should have thought that comment through a little more :D

Re:This is really cool

[alsta]

I was under the impression that DirectX was a Win32 thing and wasn't implemented in hardware. In the case of Linux on PS2, there is the DirectFB (http://www.directfb.org) project for framebuffers and perhaps coupled with the SDL of Loki (http://www.lokisoft.com/development) and do something really cool? I've heard that SDL is a really good implementation of a rendering API and it is all Open Source.

Re:This is really cool

[drinkypoo]

I was under the impression that DirectX was a Win32 thing and wasn't implemented in hardware.

DirectX is a collection of APIs. One of them, Direct3D, can more or less be done in hardware; At least for nvidia cards, most direct3d drivers only have to map D3D functions to identical functions in hardware on the card, which helped put nvidia's TNT card at the head of the Direct3D performance line, and continues through the GeForce line. In fact, it seems that nVidia is leading the direct3d featureset, and not the other way around.

Re:This is really cool

[SethJohnson]

I agree with you, Alsta. This is really cool.

should indeed bear testimony to a truly portable and well designed operating system.

I'm not entirely sure that the fact linux is available on a bunch of different hardware platforms is due solely to it's design and portability. It could be, but there are other factors that prohibit many proprietary OS's from getting ported.

If the owner of the OS doesn't see a financial incentive to dedicate programmers to the task of porting to XYZ hardware, it's unlikely to happen. Remember, NT used to be available on the PPC platform until it was realized that the market for NT servers was heading X86.

If the owner of a proprietary platform is looking for an OS for a boondoggle project, it can be cheaper in the long run to use a non-proprietary OS rather than get into a huge agreement with some OS vendor that's going to take a chunk of the boondoggle's profits in licensing fees.

Linux has armies of developers willing to dedicate jillions of hours of work towards some technical challenge just to 'do it' whereas BeOS, Mac OS (save for Darwin), and Windows have no open source developers working to port them.

So what I'm saying is that because Linux is all over the hardware map doesn't mean it is necessarily more portable or better designed. That may actually be the case. But if you're speaking relative to other operating systems, you've got to admit that they've got some non-design-related hobbles affecting their portability.

Some other poster said that Xbox has linux and it's more powerful, etc. etc. That's interesting. I'd like to see some info on that. I had assumed that Gates had demanded that all kinds of hardware-level encryption / proprietary protocols were built into the thing to prevent third parties from releasing unlicensed devices / software for the thing (not to mention a repeat of the eyeopener catastrophe).

Pictures

[cascino]

Check out the full system, including Sony's PS2 Flatscreen monitor here. Damn, it's really slick.
Anyone also notice how smart of a move this is for R&D at Sony? They just sit back, sell units, and wait for someone to code/port the perfect office suit/browser/etc that fully integrates the PS2 into the home office, and then they sell more units! I'd say this puts them at least a step ahead of Microsoft.

Re:Pictures

[dimator]

and wait for someone to code/port the perfect office suit/browser/etc that fully integrates the PS2 into the home office

If you have a PS2 in your "home office," I doubt much real work gets done. (In addition, if you need a PS2 for your office suite, I doubt you have a "home office.")

I really, really doubt this is targeted towards anyone but Joe Hacker, who also bought a Net Yaroze for the PS1 for some random/cool game hacking (which is what I plan to do with it.)

Re:Pictures

[malfunct]

Its great I guess, would be better if they were making profit off the hardware.

Re:Pictures

[Hal-9001]

The sight of AOL running on a PS2 makes me very, very sad... :-p

Re:Pictures

[Osty]

Gord is a nut, and is little more than a Sony apologist. His math doesn't add up. If a PSX sold for the equivalent of $500USD in Japan when the exchange rate was 80:1 yen:dollar, and Sony was selling it for $299 in the US when the yen was 110:1, that means that the PSX was still going for the equivalent of $363USD in Japan. Now, assuming that in Japan Sony was selling at a break-even price point because apparently the Japanese have more expendable income (and well they should, if his numbers on Japanese minimum wage are correct, which I doubt), then Sony was still taking a $64USD hit per PSX sold in the States. And that's not the only math that doesn't work right. It would also be nice of Gord would cite where some of his numbers come from. He asserts that Sony makes $6/game on licensing revenue for the PS2, which seems exceedingly low to me. Anyway, several sources I trust more than Gord (and like Gord, I won't bother citing them as a) this was a year ago, and so I'm not going to bother digging up the articles, and b) like anybody that listens to Gord would care anyway) stated last year during the PS2 launch that a bundling ratio of somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8 games per PS2 was necessary for Sony to break even (or fewer games and more accessories, which are often-times Sony first-party accessories, and thus make Sony more cash). They weren't doing nearly that well.

You're right that the Linux kit can be sold for whatever Sony wishes, and you'd better believe they're going to try to make a healthy profit off of them (they're low-demand items, so the prices have to be higher to allow them to continue to be made).

Re:Pictures

[Osty]

I wasn't questioning his numbers on the prices for the Playstation, Japanese and American (or Canadian, as he seems to be). My point was that his numbers don't add up. 80 yen to the dollar at roughly $500 USD is close to 39,800. But 110 yen to the dollar at the same 39800 yen makes for $363USD, which is a bit more than $299 USD. I'm sure Gord is a great guy and all, and smart, but he should stick to what he knows -- renting and selling games. Speculating on the business of creating and selling (in the sense that the manufacturer sells to retailers, not retailers to customers) hardware in the video game industry is apparently an area in which he has little experience, unless he happened to work for the business unit of Sega or Sony or similar at some point in the recent past. And it wouldn't hurt if his numerical examples would add up properly.

Re:Pictures

[CoolVibe]

Well... The really cool thing is if people write very cool games using this. Linux is absolutely a cool development platform. I wonder when people will start writing games using the Linux kit.

And linux will gain some cool games too if professional companies write games using this and decide to port it to linux as well (heck, it's only a recompile away)

Another contender are the scener groups that make demos. Imagine watching demo's on your PS/2, wouldn't that be cool?

Re:Pictures

[GTRacer]

I was going to ignore the "all consoles sell at a loss" threads but I have to speak up:

I am not in the industry, nor do I have concrete sources available, so if I'm wrong, prove it and I'll apologise

Consoles sell at a loss when new. Over time, efficiencies of scale and market prices for components bring the price per unit below the selling point. You don't honestly think PSones still cost Sony $300 to make do you?

With 20 million PS2s in the world and what, three plants cranking them out, I'd be surprised if Sony wasn't pocketing at least 25 bucks off each system - maybe $50.

GTRacer
- mmmmmm...Linux....

Re:Pictures

[CoolVibe]

> You're not gonna run games on top of Linux and expect them to run well on a PS2, are you? Leave the PS2 games to the PS2 game developers.

And why the hell not? If you can make a bootable CD that just boots linux on the PS2 (maybe disguised through a boot screen, easily possible through the framebuffer stuff) and starts a very cool game, what's wrong with that? We have enough toolkits (SDL, OpenGL, OpenAL et al), so why the hell not? I know this was the subject of a slashdot frontpage post once (can't remember when that was, it was a while back though)

Oh, about the word processor, one could port OpenOffice to the PS2/Linux setup and we wouldn't need Sony to make a deal with the evil AOL. X already runs on it. Or what about KDE? KOffice is also very decent (I do most of my worprocessing with KWord. I've had a few niggles, but nothing that really irks me). We have a lot of things ready to go for this.

Re:Pictures

[CoolVibe]

Just because you can run a Linux game on a PS2 doesn't mean you should. That is, unless you don't care about performance...

The performance will come eventually. Maybe it's slow now, but of course it will _get better_. Why are you looking at today? I'm looking at tomorrow.

Oh, yeah well, slashdot likes to eat HTML tags :-)

Re:Pictures

[altair1]

Their images won't load for me, something is screwed up with their javascript. But here are direct links to the linux images... you might want to turn off javascript first.

http://www.consolewire.com/view/res.asp?in=107-071 7_IMG.JPG&tt=Playstation+2+Linux+Kit+US+Bound
http://www.consolewire.com/view/res.asp?in=107-071 8_IMG.JPG&tt=Playstation+2+Linux+Kit+US+Bound

Some simple URL hacking will bring up other images at whatever event this is.

Re:Pictures

[Carik]

There is one question here left unanswered; what's the retail markup in Japan, and what is it here? If they're very different, then the retail prices will have nothing to do with how much profit Sony makes on a sale, only how much the retailer makes.

Re:Pictures

[Halcyon-X]

Anyone also notice how smart of a move this is for R&D at Sony? They just sit back, sell units, and wait for someone to code/port the perfect office suit/browser/etc that fully integrates the PS2 into the home office, and then they sell more units! I'd say this puts them at least a step ahead of Microsoft.

Or rather, a step behind the GNU. Sony only made Linux available on the PS2 because they had ported it to the PS2 for use on development kits, therefore they had to make their modifications available to the public, according to the GNU.

Re:Pictures

[GTRacer]

Perhaps we're talking about two different amounts. I wasn't including dev costs, nor advertising. Just manufacturing costs per unit.

I doubt that current PS2s cost $300. And what they've sunk into development comes back in the form of the insanely-priced PSTool SDKs and the foundation for GSCube (multiprocessor workstation) and PS3.

Even the factories they've built in Japan and China to meet demand can be used for cranking out other products with some retooling.

And are you sure PS2 was the costliest to develop? What about Xbox? And I don't mean the .5 billion advert budget...

GTRacer
- Loves gaming

Re:Pictures

[mj6798]

At $500 in Japan, Sony was probably making a reasonable profit. So, even all things being equal, it's quite likely that selling at $299 in the US after the fall of the yen was still not selling at a loss. More importantly, component costs had likely come down significantly between the Japanese and US releases, giving Sony even more room to adjust prices for the US market.

The development costs of the PS2 may have been high, but in terms of actual cost of putting the thing together, I doubt it's a lot more than a good consumer DVD player at this point. I would bet that Sony is now making a reasonable profit on every unit sold, although one can't prove it either way.

Hiku

[HowIsMyDriving?]

PS2 Linux?
Page not advalible now
Must be Slashdot

while the site is /.ed...

[karm13]

...you could check out this link to cnn it had in the article.

One question... why?

[Black Pete]

I am seriously not trying to troll. This is a real question that I'd like to know the answer to. I'm not bashing Linux (hell, I have a Linux box which I love playing with). I know I'll get flamed anyways.. but here goes...

Why would I want a Linux PS2? When playing games on the PS2, I just put a CD/DVD in, boot up, and play. Why should the average Joe Customer care what OS it's running?

I can certainly see how it'd be cool as a hacking plaything to mess around with. I wouldn't mind getting a Linux PS2 just for that very reason. But beyond that, I don't see much point... either for myself, or for the average Joe Customer.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone could enlighten me on this point?

Re:One question... why?

[danaris]

Largely, I think, because they can. Also, because it can allow a vast number of games to be brought to the PS2 (thus increasing Sony's market penetration) simply by recompiling for the new platform. I'm sure things will take a little porting, but there's so much stuff--even commercial stuff--already there, that Sony really can't lose with this one.

And besides that, it's so cool!

Dan Aris

Re:One question... why?

[nomadic]

I've heard a lot of stuff about linux, but this is a new one; Linux has a VAST amount of games?

Re:One question... why?

[Randy Rathbun]

I want it so I can be watching TV and check my email without having to get off my ass and walk the 20 steps to the computer room. Plus, how often are you sitting at the TV and think to yourself, "I really need to remember to look this up on the web when I get a chance.." then go off and forget about it. Hell, I do it all the time.

To me this is gonna be cool.

Re:One question... why?

[dark_panda]

The system is going to need some kind of OS when it comes time for Sony to launch their Internet platform for it. Why not use something that's already available with tons of applications rather than re-writing everything? When it comes time for people to connect to the Internet through their PS2 (which Sony has always envisioned as an all-on-one-DVD/games/networkable box), they're already going to have good browsers, mail programes, office suites, hell, even ftp and web servers.

No use recreating the wheel. It's not just cool, it's somewhat practical for them.

J

Re:One question... why?

[autopr0n]

I can certainly see how it'd be cool as a hacking plaything to mess around with. I wouldn't mind getting a Linux PS2 just for that very reason. But beyond that, I don't see much point... either for myself, or for the average Joe Customer.

There are a lot of people who would buy this just for playing around. There are a lot of people who enjoy computing for it's own sake, the people who make companies like Abit profitable.

Re:One question... why?

[nobodyman]

Well... if "Joe Customer" implies your core ps2 buyer, then I don't think that ps2linux is that compelling(yet). If Sony dumbs it down to WebTV level then I think it might appeal to the mass market (which is the direction I thought they were headed, as they were demoing AOL on the ps2.. don't know if that's still a plan).

However, I for one am intrigued with the idea of a low-cost ps2 game development platform. At the very least, you can write SDL games for it. Admittedly a lot of my interest is simply curiosity -- Dreamcast Linux is even more impractical but I'm still going to install it.. just to say I did.

Re:One question... why?

[VFVTHUNTER]

Price of a PS2: $300

Price of a PS2 Linux Kit: $200

Not having to get up from the TV to get porn off the net: Priceless

Re:One question... why?

[Junks Jerzey]

The system is going to need some kind of OS when it comes time for Sony to launch their Internet platform for it.

The PS2 contains a proprietary multitasking OS.

Re:One question... why?

[Cybercrows_ghost]

I mainly want Linux on my PS2 so I can play VCD's and DivX stuff. Also, I can use it to be an mp3 jukebox since it has a 40gig HD. I have a linux box hooked up to the TV to handle this task currently, but it's noisy, huge and ugly, so the PS2 + linux is a much better option for me.

Re:One question... why?

[digitalmuse]

different people are liable to answer this one in different ways. Some deep linux folks are going to approach this for the challenge. Other people are going to explore the world of embedded systems and game console magic. Some folks like myself are going to try and get another tool into the house. I'm looking forward to being able to turn on a 'device' in my TV cabinet and play MP3's over the network, pop-up a browser, maybe even let someone hop onto their web-mail.
This is the niche that I would like to fill with a thin-client solution.
And with a good implementation of Linux on PS2, I may have that thin-client.
But the beauty of this is that everyone else out there is going to be porting MAME, AIM, Mozilla, Gnutella, and kitchen_sink .8(alpha) onto this platform.
Imagine a thousand users, with a thousand consoles, each with their own killer-app. THAT is what I forsee with this. PS2 is not the new business desktop, it isn't necessarily what you want to give Grandma to e-mail the grandkids. It is a tool that has great possibilites for a broad-range of people who are interested in playing with this platform. I would urge people to make this happen. Buy the kit, learn how it works, create stand-alone (DiskJuggler, Nero, or ISO) images that the more technically inclined can produce and distribute to their non-geek friends.
I've got a fresh batch of cookies waiting for the first person to point me to a workable image that I can use to let my friend play all his old SuperNintendo games (he still has the game cartridges in the attic, so don't whine about copyright!) on his shiny PS2.

Re:One question... why?

[stubear]

Palm bought BeOS. Sony and Palm are working very closely in the handheld arena as the Clie is the best handheld running the current PalmOS. It wouldn't be a stretch to have Sony license the Palm version of BeOS for their internet enabled PS console in exchange for further development of the Clie handheld and supporting PalmOS.

Re:One question... why?

[Lazaru5]

Why would I want a Linux PS2?

You answered your own question:

I can certainly see how it'd be cool as a hacking plaything to mess around with. I wouldn't mind getting a Linux PS2 just for that very reason.

As for the average Joe Customer wanting a Linux PS2 Kit..of course they have no need for it. The average Joe Customer isn't even a Linux user. You may as well ask "What does the average Joe Customer want Linux on a PC for?" also. The fact that it's a PS2 doesn't matter. It's obviously being sold to geeks and developers.

Re:One question... why?

[child_of_mercy]

I have a linux box, i have a ps2

my linux box needs replacing in the next 6 months (it's ancient and has mobo issues, i learnt a lot building it but it's had it)

so for me this deal will kick arse compared to buying new.

if I want games i can use the ps2 natively.

and for web / mail / ICQ / a bit of writing the linux kit will be more than adequate.

and save me a chunk of cash too.

I bet you there are a LOT of families out there with ps2's who'll leap at this if it's explained properly.

digital divide and all that.

it'll make a cheap and adequate computing platform.

be interesting to see how well it supports printers and scanners.

Re:One question... why?

[deadl0ck]

I^m doing this right now on my Dreamcast. You can
pick one up for about $50 now. Trying to find a cheap
NIC (BBA) is a problem however.

There are a couple of Browsers availabl for the DC.

Re:One question... why?

[blank]

I don't think average joe customers care about linux at all. Even my hippie friends who want to save the world don't really care about linux too much. Average joe customer also don't care about *BSD on the dreamcast. Average joe customer fear computers and live with windows. They also hate math ( but love to correct your spelling and grammer ). This is for the hobbiest.

You're right, average joe customers don't care what OS they're running. Many geeks do. This is for the geeks that would to fiddle some more with hardware that they already own. It has a hard drive, ethernet, firewire, USB and the glorious VGA adapter.

Some people want it becuase they can get it. Some people want it because they hate MicroSoft. Others will use it for yet another internet terminal (YAIT, or in GNU speak: YAIT is not a terminal).

I want it because I want to support linux. If more people realize that they don't need to use windows ALL the time (just some of the time), I am happy. This is from vent up anger from being a sysadmin.

I also want it so I can play my games (love MGS2) and hack it too. I could also wait for some hacker to port linux to the XBOX but I don't have an XBOX and have less reasons to buy one. All the games I want to play are either already on the PS2 or will be made for my PC, which will always be faster becuase by default my personality requires it that way.

Those are some of the thoughts I have on why to get one. Basically, because you can. I think that the average joe user won't care. I don't see them wanting to pay $200 more for the ethernet and harddrive to turn the PS2 into a computer. But one day the PS2 will by default come with the harddrive and ethernet. Then they still won't care about the OS, but they buy the feature equipe one for $300. they'll have the option of paying $40 to AOL who'll give them access online and a CD/DVD that runs there software on linux. They'll skip the MS-tax. Maybe Sony will do the same thing and make the PS2 apart of there digital hub. This makes the PS2 versitle and plays games too!

For now, it's just for the geeks who wants it. Just like how computers use to be. Just for the people willing to fork over a load of money for interesting hardware. It could be totally useless and worthless when i get it, but that also happen with my palm.

Re:One question... why?

[dark_panda]

And how many applications are available for this proprietary multitasking OS versus the number of applications available for Linux and UNIX-like systems?

J

You mean besides....

[moniker_21]

"...finally I will have a legit reason to buy a PS2."

You mean besides,

All
the
really
really
great
games
?

And many more... You just can't beat the PS2 right now simply because it has so many amazing games available for it. Sorry it's offtopic, but it's true.

Re:You mean besides....

[Graspee_Leemoor]

" And Metal Gear Solid 2 won't be exclusive for much longer. "

Last I heard Konami were scrapping their metal gear solid x (xbox) plans, but then I also heard that there would be no dc shenmue 2 non-Japanese and we got that so...

graspee

Re:You mean besides....

[Tofuhead]

Last I heard Konami were scrapping their metal gear solid x (xbox) plans, but then I also heard that there would be no dc shenmue 2 non-Japanese and we got that so...

The English-language version of Shenmue 2 for Dreamcast is available, right now, for European PAL systems. American DCs can play it with the Utopia or DC-X bootloaders, or modchips.

Otherwise, the general point of what you're saying is true. Right now, "cross-platform" means, "will be available for Playstation 2 and at least one other system." I don't know of anything cross-platform that's worth mentioning that will be released for both 'Cube and xbox, but not PS2.

OTOH, there are few non-Squaresoft PS2 exclusives that make me really want a PS2. For the kind of games I enjoy playing, in its current state, the PS2 is a glorified PSOne that can also play PS2 games and DVDs and run Linux. When more quality RPGs and 2-D fighters surface on the system, and improved hardware becomes bundled as standard, this platform will be much more attractive. Otherwise, the PSOne is the RPG king, while the combo of Japanese Sega Saturn, SNK NeoGeo, and Sega Dreamcast rule supreme for 2-D fighters (now I just gotta get a JAMMA board system, and I'm all set).

< tofuhead >

Heh.

[beefstu01]

The ultimate gaming machine- Beowulfed Linux PS2's!

Crippled or no?

[autopr0n]

I've already got a PS2, and I can pretty much say that I'll get this... assuming I have the money for it. But does anyone know how crippled its going to be? I mean is Sony going to release the components and software you'll need to turn it into a 'true' Linux system right out of the box? I mean the thing does have a nice little CPU, it's cheap, and it's got a small form factor. I'd bet they would make for a nice server array, if they didn't put out to much heat.

And what about access to the PS2's internal hardware? Are we going to be able to program games/demos/etc. How much codeability are we going to be able to get out of the thing?

Oh, and that fire wire port makes me wonder. Sony has been pushing the video editing market with their Vaio PCs, and the PS2 does have a fire wire jack. Are we going to be able to edit video? Or would Sony not want to cut into it's PC sales by giving the machine to much power

This thing has the potential to be like the Amiga/C64/etc of our generation. A cheap TV computer that's fully programmable, hack able, whatever. Except with fire wire DVD support and all sorts of other modern goodies. The only thing holding it back really is how much Sony is willing to allow it to possibly cut into their profits.

I would assume the preview mentions these things, but it seems to be slashdotted...

Re:Crippled or no?

[mikeee]

32MB of RAM, folks.

Is that enough to run Gnome or KDE?

And is anybody going to buy a PS2 to run in console mode?

Re:Crippled or no?

[Afrosheen]

That's plenty to run Blackbox or IceWM.

Re:Crippled or no?

[rodentia]

That's some proprietary RDRAM with throughput in the neighborhood of 3Gb, behind a 300Mhz, 128-bit processor, IIRC. Prolly smoke your Ghz Athlon.

Re:Crippled or no?

[mikeee]

RDRAM is well and good, but the fact that that RAM is 100% faster than mine isn't going to matter when it starts swapping, 'cause my RAM is about 1000000% faster than that IDE hard drive. (No, really, it is. Do the math.)

OTOH, my previous PC ran Blackbox tolerably with 28 MB, so maybe...

Re:Crippled or no?

[Harbinjer]

THis is a great processor, but useless without a good compiler. I've heard its no better than a K6-2 right now. Kinda similar to Itanium, great in theory...

On the plus side, when someone does have a really good compiler for it, you only need software to get the true power out of this baby, no more hardware upgrades.

Re:Crippled or no?

[VFVTHUNTER]

Umm yeah, if you didn't read the dmesg on the site, it's got gcc-2.95.2. If that's not good enough for you, go get gcc3 and cross compile it.

Re:Crippled or no?

[GreyLightning]

Getting good access to the internal hardware is unlikely.

The reason is that if you want to develop a game for PS2, you have to license a development kit from Sony, which costs a few hundred thousand USD. (I think it's $250K.) That's it. You can't even look at the SDK unless you cough up the cash. My office has a contact at Sony and this is what we found out when we were considering using their platform.

So if we can bypass their SDK and write our games and graphics demos under the PS2 Linux environment without paying the quarter-million fee, Sony loses a big revenue stream.

So while you will be able to write to the X API for graphics, don't expect to have access via Linux to any optimized graphics features the PS2 provides.

As for Firewire, if it's a standard OHCI chip, then you'll be able to use the Linux1394 drivers and edit all the video you can eat. If it's a proprietary Sony interface, then we're stuck with whatever access they decide to release (if anything).

Re:Crippled or no?

[LinuxOnHal]

>As for Firewire, if it's a standard OHCI chip, >then you'll be able to use the Linux1394 drivers >and edit all the video you can eat.

All the video you can eat, with 32 megabytes of RAM. Last time I checked, to do it right, it takes a bit more than that.

Re:Crippled or no?

[macinslak]

Of course you realize that bandwidth of that sort is more or less worthless for most applications. All that matters is low latency, and that RDRAM probably carries something in the neighborhood of 80~100ns as compared to >10ns latency of modern DRAM.

That and said 300mhz proc has virtually no ability to execute serial instructions(no, 128 bit word size does not make it faster). Without a vectorizing compiler the PS2 has precious little computational power.

So for any non-game tasks, my Athlon 550 is probably a great deal faster.

Re:Crippled or no?

[iapetus]

And exactly how good is gcc at generating Emotion Engine code these days? Does compiled code automatically make use of the vector units where appropriate? (Clue: the answer is 'no'...)

Re:Crippled or no?

[ddennedy]

As for Firewire, if it's a standard OHCI chip, then you'll be able to use the Linux1394 drivers and edit all the video you can eat. If it's a proprietary Sony interface, then we're stuck with whatever access they decide to release (if anything).

As a Linux 1394/DV developer, I am very interested in this exact application. Currently, our video editor Kino typically consumes less than 20MB RAM, so without a WM or GNOME, it is feasible. Unfortunately, from information by a Japanese poster to the linux1394-devel mailing list, the IEEE1394 hardware is proprietary and not OHCI. I wish Sony would contribute drivers because they could attach all sorts of storage devices to the PS2 as well this way.

Re:Crippled or no?

[TaxSlave]

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm working daily on a 200 Mhz Pentium with 2 gig of HD and 40 MB of RAM. I run Gnome with IceWM every day, and never have problems.

I'd think 32 would be just fine, if not optimal.

Re:Crippled or no?

[child_of_mercy]

the thing plays full length movies off DVD

it's MADE to do pictures and graphics.

Re:Crippled or no?

[LinuxOnHal]

There is a difference between viewing pictures and video, and altering, or editing pictures and video. A BIG difference.

Re:Crippled or no?

[child_of_mercy]

granted

but that wasn't the question.

Re:Crippled or no?

[LinuxOnHal]

That was precicely the question. He was referring to the OHCI Standard Firewire Interface, and its ability to do things such as video editing. The only thing you refered to was playing a DVD. If its optimized for it correctly, it does not take very much horsepower to do that, look at a consumer-grade $150 DVD player. He was referring to editing, and there is a vast difference in editing video, and simply watching video.

Any Bets?

[HavingToLoginSucks]

Looks like Sony is trying to upstart m$'s future homestation, any bets till how long it will be till we see an XP package ship for the xbox to counter this? My crystal ball says 2 months at latest.

Networking?

[Col_Panic]

Perhaps I have just missed it, but any information on networking this beast? I have heard that the ethernet adapter for the PS2 isn't due out till after the winter shopping season. (Sony has to be kicking themselves over that one, networking is the only thing the Xbox really has over the PS2) Any word on how the box running Linux would use this network adapter?

Re:Networking?

[ZeroLogic]

I've been using a DLINK USB ethernet adapter w/ Tony Hawk.

You don't HAVE to use the Sony adapter, there are other ones that will work as well.

Re:Networking?

[VFVTHUNTER]

Dunno about the US/World version, but the Japanese version ships with a combo hard drive-10/100MBit ethernet card.

Dreamcast!

[Spackler]

I just flipped my self-burned CD-R into my $50 Dreamcast, just to reply to this. You can do this today, for about as much money as a PS2 game and a keyboard. Granted, no hard disk, but the idea was to mess with embedded Linux.

Don't miss the point here. Run to "Toys R us", and scoop up the Dreamcast (read the manufacture date through the hole in the back to make sure it was made before Sept. 2000). Go to fivemouse.com and grab the image. Burn it with DiscJuggler, and start playing with embedded Linux tonight!

-Spackler

Re:Dreamcast!

[RogrWilco]

Just out of curiosity, why the date stipuation? I couldn't find anything at the fivemouse web site.

Re:Dreamcast!

[Fourier]

(read the manufacture date through the hole in the back to make sure it was made before Sept. 2000)

What's wrong with more recent models? Do they include some sort of "anti-hacking" firmware or something?

Re:Dreamcast!

[Anonymous Coward]

The newer DC's won't boot CDR's. I gave my original DC to my dad, and I bought a another used one. When I got it home I popped in a burned cdr and it wouldn't boot. I promptly returned it and made sure to check the date this time.

Re:Dreamcast!

[Chad Page]

I grabbed an October 2000 unit last night for a friend's christmas present and the Linux CD-R worked on it. It might have been one of the last units with the old BIOS, but people have gotten Dec. 2000 units working as well. I believe that if the CD is burned correctly - which the dreamcast .tar.bz2 does - it will work - only some Japanese units cannot boot from CD(-R) at all. (YMMV, just in case...)

Wow

[cascino]

Wow... I just thought of something. Does anyone realize what would happen if Sony started pre-loading Linux onto PS2's? Does anyone realize how many users would learn to use (and love) Linux? Consider this - the original Playstation sold close to 100 million units (maybe more?), and the overwhelming majority were sold in latter years of its life.
I'd say this is a fairly likely scenario, actually. Once the price comes down enough, Sony would be smart to start bundling PS2's with harddrives - and so it really wouldn't be a big stretch to throw in the keyboard/mouse combo as well. And if they do that, consumers are going to expect additional functionality. Why pay extra for a harddrive when all it does is store saved games? In comes Linux. By that point, there will already be a browser, a word processor, and a useable GUI developed especially for the PS2. Thus the sub-$300 gaming AND browsing PC becomes a reality - and it runs Linux.

Mirror

[gabeman-o]

http://www.stormcloudtech.com/~gabe/mirror/

Sorry, didnt get a chance to mirror the full size screen shots.

Re:What about linking non-free sources?

[standards]

If the code is not released, AND it makes intimate use of GPL'd software, then it is in violation.

If the code is released under the GPL, -or- if it doesn't make intimate use of GPL'd software, then it is not in violation.

clustering?

[Maskirovka]

This obviously has everything it needs for a low cost / low power cluster. Can anyone tell me if would make a cost effective rendering cluster (eg, Maya)?

Maskirovka

Re:clustering?

[seann]

I'm noting to do much research for you, but they already are doing this.
special play station 2's and a rendering cluster, go google it.
good read.

Heh, true

[autopr0n]

But I doubt Linux for the X-Box will ever amount to much. I mean, yeh people ported Linux to the dreamcast, but its not like millions of DC owners out there used it for anything.

PS2 Linux, OTOH, is going to be major. Supported by the company that makes the hardware (and maybe even a marketing campaign if we're lucky), it could end up being major. And in a lot of peoples hands that wouldn't normally go around hacking their videogame hardware.

Re:Heh, true

[spectral]

i dunno.. i think it'd be easier to get it to play all my divx files.. considering it could then use the windows codec through wine or something (similar to how xine does it, I believe.), which would really be nice. A little box that acts as a server, hooks up to a tv, relatively cheap, approximately the same power as my desktop, AND plays my divx files through my network. Mmm. And I can reboot it and play any of those wonderful xbox games. *cough*

Legit reason?

[sheetzam]

Wow, this is clearly a definition of legitimate I had not encountered before! Not that I can argue with it, mind you. Now if only my wife were willing to accept that logic....

No

[autopr0n]

Is the code to these drivers being released, and if not, is it a GPL violation?

Well, Sony is only required to give the source to people who they give/sell the software to. Not everyone in the world. Since this is only in beta, and a few people have it, its a non-issue. When the system goes into wide release, though, it would be a different matter. Presumably Sony would send a CD along with the unit containing any modified source (same as with products like the Tivo)

Re:No

[k2x]

Are u allowed to modify GPL'ed code so that it can interface to proprietary code legally? basically create modular chunks between GPL'ed code and proprietary code...so the modified source works hand-in-hand with proprietary code...

Clickable link *sigh*

[autopr0n]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/fun.games/10/24/linux .ps2.idg/

It's very simple to do. (<a href="URL">link text</a> in HTML posting mode) and makes everyone's life a little easier. Text links defeat the whole purpose of the web, and if they are to long slashcode inserts spaces into them that keep the page format from getting screwed up (but also break the URLs)

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[JabberWokky]

if they are to long slashcode inserts spaces into them

Ironically, that's why I *didn't* href the link. I was worried it would break in the tag, which is a pita. You're giving HTML tips to a guy who religiously plants italics and spacing tags throughout his replies... I knew *how*... I chose *not* to. But thanks for the effort, anyway (although when providing helpful tips, a "*sigh*" in the subject is a bit less than polite).

--
Evan "yet a little more sleep deprived"

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[autopr0n]

Ironically, that's why I *didn't* href the link. I was worried it would break in the tag

I've never seen that happen. Although I have seen lots of plaintext URLs get broken up and need editing in the URL bar, but I've never seen the URL inside a link tag get broken. Anyway, you can do both like I did, and have the Link text be the same as the link, um, link.

I just assumed most people who don't link links are posting in plaintext mode or something. Keep in mind that the combined effort of 100 or 1000 people copy+pasteing a URL is way more then it takes to link a link in a comment.

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[Cow4263]

Hate to sound like a troll or an ass; but thats what the preview button is for....

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[AmirS]

to do text links in mozilla i just select the text and middle-click anywhere on the browser window - so any url selectable in X is easy to use...

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[JabberWokky]

In my experience (and, judging by the number of gripes of "it worked fine when I previewed it!"), the preview is (or was - to be honest, I haven't tried since the last upgrade) very broken. Since it's been broken for quite awhile, through many versions of software, I've kinda given up on it telling me useful info about where it's gonna break URLs.

And really... this entire thread is over three extra clicks of the mouse. Highlight the URL, click the X next to the Location bar, middle click in the empty field, and hit the Go button. Is that so hard (TMMV due to browser and OS)? I doubt I've broken many wrists... and by now, the site is probably not slashdotted anymore, so the original link works.

Really, fellas - I'm all for pedantic arguments, but this is spiraling into lunacy.

--
Evan

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[Fjord]

Slashcode doesn't put spaces in the hrefs, only in the text. The spaces are put in to prevent a troll from putting in a really long line which will destroy the formatting of the page (causing you to have to scroll back and forth to read the comments).

Re:Clickable link *sigh*

[GrammarPhone]

Keep in mind that the combined effort of 100 or 1000 people copy+pasteing a URL is way more then it takes to link a link in a comment.

Keep in mind that the combined effort of 100 or 1000 people correcting you on using "then" when you mean "than" is way more than it takes for you to learn proper grammar and spelling.

I'll let "pasteing" slide this time.

Re:Is this is bad move for Sony?

[kasek]

With the several flavors of mod chips that are available to allow you to run illegitimate CDs and DVDs on your PS2, how long would it be before you could use your home-made CD-R's along with linux.

Re:Browser?

[tupps]

Have a look at the pics here

http://consolewire.com/news/item.asp?nid=2013

One has the system using Netscape, another with AOL.

Also all the pics show the v. cool flatscreen that Sony has.

Only in the beginning

[autopr0n]

Eventually, the price of producing the unit comes down to the point where they do make a profit. Sony today makes money on every ps1 sold. They can just wait until they start making profit before they sell the Linux kit.

Also, Sony can charge whatever they want for their Linux kit. If they loose $150 on every PS2 sold, and sell the kit for $200, they'll make 50 for every PS2+linux kit sold (not counting the cost of the Linux kit, witch with the 40gig HD might not be that cheap)

And Sony's strategy certainly isn't to sell few PS2s, they want to sell a lot. What they want is to have a high ratio of games to systems.

Re:Only in the beginning

[Phil Wilkins]

I believe that break-even has been reached on PS2. There was some news reports about PS3 needing to be moved forwards, and this was why PS2 hadn't dropped in price, as they needed to pay of the R&D costs faster than they did with PS1.

Re:One question... why Interesting?

[GoofyBoy]

I'm going to buy and set Linux on my PS2 because I'm lazy and have a bad memory?

Its not the comment that upset about, its the fact that someone thought that it was Interesting. Thats really reaching.

netscape in picture?

[SETY]

One of the pictures shows Netscape being run on the PS2. It looks to be 4.7x. Last time I checked netscape was closed source.
How did they get Netscape to run on the PS2 risc "emotion engine" CPU? I assume you could get the source to mozilla and away you go for whatever CPU, but that doesn't look like what is happeneding here. Can someone enlighten me?

Re:netscape in picture?

[VFVTHUNTER]

the risc emotion engine blah is a MIPS processor. SGI's are MIPS. Netscape runs on SGI's...

Re:netscape in picture?

[MrCreosote]

Of course, they could be running it on a server, and having it displayed under X on the PS2.

linux applications on the ps2

[Afrosheen]

For anyone who didn't know, AOL made it's client software for the PS2 a long time ago. Once the official broadband adapter + hd hits the streets, guess what? Yeah you can use aol over your phone line/broadband connection on your ps2. This was announced about 4 months ago when AOL made the deal with Sony. I'm not surprised Netscape runs on the ps2 either. A linux port to PS2 is effortless. Mozilla comes next of course.

Also there have been full-mockup pictures of the entire PS2 hardware collection floating around since the summertime. The flatscreen 15" monitor, black keyboard and mouse etc. have been prototyped and available within Sony for months.

How much does it cost?

[jonsmirl]

I've never seen pricing for the kit, how much is it going to cost?

Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[yerricde]

Sony has released its distribution of the GNU/Linux OS for PlayStation 2 in the USA.

17 USC 109(b)(1)(A) prohibits rental of computer software in the United States. Section 109(b)(1)(B), on the other hand, makes an exception for software designed to run on video game consoles. But does the release of PS2 Linux make the PS2 into a "computer" under the law, and thus ineligible for software rental without explicit contracts between each video game publisher and each rental shop?

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[The Monster]

17 USC 109 [cornell.edu](b)(1)(A) prohibits rental of computer software in the United States

Then how is the new Orifice XP license legal? Or .NET?

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[VFVTHUNTER]

The PS2 is by default a video game console; since authorities would have to violate the Fourth Amendment just to see if you had installed Linux on it, this point is kind of moot.

Way to think outside of the box tho :)

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[Mr. Bubbles712]

I looked around the site, and I couldn't find the difference between Rental and Temporary Licence. The reason that I ask is that if there is a difference between Temporary Licence, (such as what Microsoft is doing with the XP line), and a rental of a program to play games with(such as with all console video games). But then again, IANAL.

Mark

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[Steve72]

I saw computer games for rent at blockbuster at one time. Guess it just the classification of the software.

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[Erasmus Darwin]

"The reason that I ask is that if there is a difference between Temporary Licence, (such as what Microsoft is doing with the XP line), and a rental of a program to play games with(such as with all console video games)."

I think the easiest way to differentiate the two is who's granting the temporary use. My guess is that the law is an anti-piracy thing. As such, it would be rather difficult to claim that Microsoft was violating Microsoft's copyright. Instead, I think the law's intended to prevent someone like Blockbuster from renting out Microsoft software.

Re:Will we still be able to rent ps2 games?

[Icculus]

If some anonymous tipster told them you were using it for terrorist purposes or you were selling drugs, you'd be out of luck relying on your fourth amendment rights. Hello military tribunal...

It comes with eithernet.

[autopr0n]

The Xbox still dosn't have 'online' play, just lan. Which the PS2 can do via firewire.

Mozilla's Classic theme looks like 4.7

[yerricde]

One of the pictures shows Netscape being run on the PS2. It looks to be 4.7x

If your computer contains a Netscape Communicator 4.x profile when you install Mozilla, Mozilla defaults to the Classic theme, which looks like Netscape Communicator 4.7.

Last time I checked netscape was closed source.

Mozilla is free software licensed under the Mozilla Public License and the GNU { |Lesser} General Public License. Netscape 6.x is mostly MPL/LGPL free software with some minor proprietary things linked in (AIM client, spell checker, etc) but the Mozilla team is working on replacing those.

Re:Mozilla's Classic theme looks like 4.7

[FunkyChild]

It's not Mozilla. In this picture, the titlebar clearly has two words and you can just make out it saying "Netscape Communicator". By comparing what's in the photo to a Mozilla running the 'classic' skin, you can see that it's not the same. Not to mention, the throbber isn't a Mozilla lizard icon, but the trademark Netscape 'N'.

So indeed, it is quite puzzling.

Re:Mozilla's Classic theme looks like 4.7

[Taurine]

Doesn't this kit include some sort of networking? They could be running Netscape on another machine, with the display exported over X11.

So how would you *load* linux on an Xbox?

[yerricde]

PS2 has to compete with the XBox (x86, _should_ not be hard to "port" linux to)

How are you going to even load Linux on an Xbox console? Xbox (not the more expensive XDK) uses a proprietary bootloader that checks for a digitally signed kernel.

Re:So how would you *load* linux on an Xbox?

[man_ls]

Sony produces PS/2.

Sony produces PS/2 Linux.

Sony digitally signs PS/2 Linux kernel for bootloader.

Problem solved.

Re:So how would you *load* linux on an Xbox?

[nutbar]

Post talks about Xbox.

Next post talks about PS2.

Everyone gets confused.

Re:So how would you *load* linux on an Xbox?

[seann]

I don't mean to sound like a flambatious anti-microsoft linux using slashdot troll, but:

Microsofts makes the X-Box
Microsoft does not have a very good security record for "Keeping People Out."

I think I've said enough.

Yes ;-)

[Styx]

Who wouldn't want to play such memorable games as

• nethack
• Xpilot
• freeciv
• Tux Racer
• MAME

on their PS2?

And of course you'll be able to use tintin++ to play MUDs, as well.

Re:Wow

[khuber]

> Does anyone realize what would happen if Sony started pre-loading Linux onto PS2's? Does anyone realize how many users would learn to use (and love) Linux?

Three geeks? You can already buy a cheap actually upgradeable PC for a couple hundred bucks with a less-ridiculous amount of memory. The usefulness of a proprietary system is questionable.

-Kevin

Quake 3 on Linux?

[Deltan]

Hmmm...
Since the retail Quake 3 for PlayStation 2 sucked bad would it be an outraegous idea to think that maybe Quake 3 for Linux could be run on the PlayStation 2 making everything in the Quake 3 world all happy happy again?

Re:Quake 3 on Linux?

[Davace]

Sorry, but Quake3 will almost certainly _not_ come to linux ps2. I don't even think that the ps2 has OpenGL, something that Quake3 absolutley needs. And if quake3 had poor sales on linux itself, just imagine the sales of a game targeted at a tiny section of linux.

Re:Quake 3 on Linux?

[kin_korn_karn]

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Buy a real computer and get with the frickin' program.

Re:Quake 3 on Linux?

[Afrosheen]

Please don't let your ass speak for you. SGI penned a deal with Sony a long time ago to bring optimized OpenGL to the PS2. Also Sun has a working Java implementation running on PS2. The PS2 lacks nothing your whizbang pc can do.

Erm.. what?

[mewsenews]

Don't expect you can pop in any of your self-made CD's into it. This isn't an OSI issue as much as it is a hardware-level one. The Playstation2's CD-ROM drive is unable to read normal data CD-ROMs.

How does this make sense when the PS2 is capable of reading normal PSX discs? PSX discs are standard CD-ROMs.

SDL != 3d

[autopr0n]

SDL is only for 2d and media access to the hardware, not 3d. It does most of the directX stuff, but not D3d.

Re:SDL != 3d

[seann]

SDL
+
OpenGL
+
OpenAL

comments?

Re:DivX on PSX2

[SukebePanda!]

Found this link awhile ago.. it appears to be for an upcoming Divx/media player for the PS2. Too bad it won't load completely. http://www.tuuk.demon.co.uk/

Finally?

[Elflord1999]

It almost makes me ill to read something like this...."Finally I have a legit reason to buy a PS2"...how about those of us that realize there are actually...games to play on the console? Not to mention the fact that it /is/ a console. Will I have a legit reason to buy a leafblower when someone finds a way to put Linux on it? I mean, come on. I run my domain on Linux boxes, and I play games on my PS2...imagine that. I'm sure this will end up being 'flamebait', but most of you need to get a grip on this stuff.

Re:Wow

[jcoy42]

Once the price comes down enough, Sony would be smart to start bundling PS2's with harddrives

Nonsense. Console systems have to be robust. They get yanked off of tables, dropped, generally beat up.

Hard drives may be a lot more robust then they once were, but they are not up to dealing with the level of abuse a console system takes.

And since they are already losing money on the consoles, they certainly would not be "smart" to start shipping them with hard drives. It would kill them on returns, warranty repair and the like.

Sony makes money on the Console

[bstadil]

This is not quite correct. If you look at the various analysts assessment of the market, they all state that at $299 Sony make money on the console. There is a rumour that they will lower the price in US after Xmas, They have just dropped the proce in UK to 199Pound I believe.

*DING DING!*

[Soko]

Oh boy. Here we go.

This is the exact reason the XBOX was conceived and released - to counter all of those CPU cycles being "wasted" in game consoles on a non-Wintel platform. I'd bet Microsoft has been terrified for many years that every kid who has a game console actually has a computer, and someone somewhere would make the consoles behave like real computers. XBOX is supposed to beat them to the punch.

It's classic Microsoft strategy.

if { Game_Console == Computer and Game_Console == Pervasive_penetration_into_homes and Game Console != Requires_Windows}
then
{ Game_Console == Threat_to_Monopoly_Windows_Position};
else
{Threat_to_Monopoly_Windows_Position==0};
End if;
do
{ Attack_Compeditors_base_market (undercut_price, add_proprietary_tech);
Delflect_Competition_from_Windows(FUD_FUD_FUD, De-comodotize);
}
until {Threat_to_Monopoly_Windows_Position==0};

The PS/2 is no C64 - and Microsoft knows it. This has been brewing for some time - you could tell Microsoft felt threatened by all those game consoles that didn't need them (Except Sega, IIRC, and we know what happened to them). So, Microsoft attacked Sony's bread and butter with the XBOX. This is the shot Sony is firing back. This is going to be fun to watch. Heh - I know whose side I'm on - the consumers.

BTW - those of you with Sony VAIOs running Windows should keep tabs on your machine's stability for a while *grin*.

Re:*DING DING!*

[Stacdaed]

Microsoft has said they will *NOT* release any keyboards and mice for the X-Box. This is because it is already perceived as essencaly a PC by some consumes. (Because of the microsoft name) So if microsoft responds in kind, they may be doing themselves more harm than good.

That said, I think is a smart move by Sony because wail it is really only for developers and real enthusiasts now, at some point it will enable them to;

Include a new hard-disk when the price drops.
Why not have linux on there, setup with a real simple graphical interface, that your grandmother could use? (tuned for low-rez of corse)
Have word processing, e-mail, webbrousing (ala webtv).
Then Sony can; sell the upgrade with the hard disk, and use this to facilitate their network gaming platform with little work on their part.

This reminds me...

[tom1974]

Of Amiga and my old C64 back then. Wonder if it's going to be the same fun, like truly hackabily, or is Sony going to keep the good stuff off limits. Does anyone know if you could boot it off other than its cd-drive?

No, thats not what he's saying at all

[autopr0n]

Read it again, he's sayin that M$ will release a Windows XP CD for the Xbox.

NetBSD?

[tiny69]

There was some discussion about Linux running on PS2 at a TFUG meeting last night. Someone asked if NetBSD had been ported to it yet. The only reason Linux beat NetBSD in being the first to run on PS2 was because of the big corporate push. I'm not knocking Linux, it's just that the NetBSD developers have _ALOT_ more experience with porting an OS to different architectures (it has currently been ported to 46!!).

How much is someone willing to bet that NetBSD will beat Linux in being the first OS to run on an XBox?

Xbox?

[ge6-oZZ]

All those things you say sound great, however wouldn't the Xbox seem like a more viable platform for such things? Despite the fact that Microsoft will be very against it, what can they do to hackers porting linux to it (if you can call it a "port").. I'd bet my money on the Xbox being better for server/linux applications, even though it's from Microsoft... I can't wait to see what develops

Re:Xbox?

[autopr0n]

Despite the fact that Microsoft will be very against it, what can they do to hackers porting Linux to it (if you can call it a "port")

Well, that's the reason it won't be. I mean, there were demo communities around the Dreamcast and N64(using a hacked Hong Kong IDE bridge (Z64), a very sweet device and twice as expensive as the game system. It was intended to be used to pirate games).

The thing is, they never really got 'big' because the companies didn't support them. You had to do all kinds of weird things, or pay out the ass, to the system to get it to work. And most importantly you needed a separate PC to code on.

Sure, someone might get Linux on the Xbox, but it wouldn't be much different then what happened with the DC. Not very big.

With support from Sony, there's a chance for something really interesting to come out of all of this.

Re:Xbox?

[LinuxOnHal]

There are a few things they could possibly to do limit its ability. The xBox looks for a digitally signed Kernel upon bootup. All they would really have to do is change the digital signiture of the kernel and the bootloader, and it would break any linux releases.

Or better yet, they could make their developers put code in that changes it for them when you first load up a new game.

This does bring about some interesting thoughts though. Sony is making a very bold move here by doing our work for us...kinda makes you wonder what really is in it for them.

I knew all of my patience would hold out

[ChozSun]

Actually I am a cheapskate and was hoping that the release of XBox and GameCube would force the prices lower (so much for that) but if the this PS2 sells for less than $500, this baby will be mine.

This is no beta. We've been tricked!

[Nemith]

After reading this article it dawned on me that this isn't a beta of the US version of linux for the PS2. It is just a english site on the Japan version.

The X11 screen shot on that site is exactly the same as on the Japan site. Furthermore the kit showing is also right off the Japaneese site. Check out this dmesg on the site. Look familiar?!?. Ya I though so.

From my understanding the US version will have an internal harddrive/network card to fit in that big hole in the back of the PS2. Now I am a little dissapointed. This casts no forshadow to release of the US version and we still have to wait. Why this even made Slashdot I am not sure, but dont be fooled with this trickery.

Re:Wow

[MrBlue VT]

Microsoft is already shipping a console with a harddrive built in...it's called the XBox.

PS2 name change...

[starvingartist12]

Maybe it should be called WorkStation 2 instead. =)

Re:PS2 name change...

[cgleba]

. . .or you could be imginative and think of the IBM name. . ."Personal System 2". . .

every time I hear PS2, PS/2 pops into my head and I have to re-think. . .it's odd how IBM has hard-wired my brain. . .

OpenGL?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people are slavering at the possibility of porting a bunch of Linux games onto the PS-2, perhaps getting a cheaper/better Quake for PS-2 that way.

However, we need to be realistic about this. None of those things are possible until/unless there is a good hardware-accellerated OpenGL port for the beast.

As far as I can tell, there isn't such a thing in existance - and whilst we can certainly port Mesa onto it, we won't get hardware accelleration and it'll run S-L-O-W.

Even with a good OpenGL port, you still wouldn't see stellar performance because the PS-2's 3D processor isn't optimised for running OpenGL - it takes a lot of wierd programming tricks to get speed out of the PS-2 and without free access to the hardware details, there is little or no chance of getting good 3D games running on it.

Of course, all of this changes if Sony announce an OpenGL implementation or release the hardware details - but I'm not holding my breath.

Re:OpenGL?

[fobio]

OpenGL has been available for PS2 for some time. I remember reading about it on Gamasutra regarding a Rayman game.

Re:OpenGL?

[djocyko]

mmmm....tux racer...on 65" TV =)

Re:OpenGL?

[Phil Wilkins]

The japanese release comes with digital copies of the same hardware & library documentation professional developers get.

Why does everyone seem to think they're going to cripple the graphics side of this release?

It's not like they could, even if they wanted too...

...incidentally, developers can't burn discs that boot in normal PS2's either. We have to buy special units for that, you can tell them because they have TEST written in the PS2 font on the top. No region lock out on them either...

Software rental

[yerricde]

Then how is the new Orifice XP license legal? Or .NET?

Because you sign a contract with Microsoft (or click your signature onto an on-screen EULA, but legal experts currently dispute enforceability of such schemes). It's illegal for the purchaser to rent copies of computer software not designed for a game console, but it's perfectly OK for the copyprivilege owner to do so, which is why I mentioned that Sony could potentially make contracts with video store owners. However, this opens up another can of worms relating to potential discriminatory policies about rental licensing; these issues already pop up in Japan, where consumers' first sale rights are much weaker.

Um, take another look at dmesg

[jmorris42]

Notice anything missing from the dmesg output?

Yup, just the hard drive! No access to the closed hardware in the CD/DVD player. No CD/MP3/DVD/VCD/Divx;) players for us until some outsiders reverse engineer things and distribute a loadable module.

Bummer. I'd have bought one in an instant as a play everything console.

Anybody know if it has one or two PC Card slots? It needs one for the HDD/ethernet but since ethenet to my TV would be a bitch I'd prefer to slam a Orinoco into it.

Re:Um, take another look at dmesg

[spacefrog]

>> Anybody know if it has one or two PC Card
>> slots? It needs one for the HDD/ethernet but
>> since ethenet to my TV would be a bitch I'd
>> prefer to slam a Orinoco into it.

The PS2 does not have any PC Card slots.

It does, however, have both a USB and an IEEE1394/Firewire/i.link/whatever port.

Although not the fastest pups in the world (because they are USB), USB ethernet adapters are a dime a dozen. I know x86 Linux supports some of these.

I believe USB 802.11 adapters are available as well, but I don't know what the driver situation is like.

1394 hard disk interface/enclosures are also readily available and affordable. You can purchase them with drives pre-installed or buy an empty box and populate it yourself with an UDMA drive.

Re:Um, take another look at dmesg

[PygmySurfer]

> The PS2 does not have any PC Card slots.

Actually, the Japanese PS2 had PC Card slots... this was changed for the US version, however (They removed the PC Card slots to add the expansion bay for the upcoming hdd/network adapter).

Re:Um, take another look at dmesg

[child_of_mercy]

hello?

u can already play your dvd's and cd's natively.

Re:Um, take another look at dmesg

[Cryptnotic]

They switched the design for the later Japanese units too. All the ones after the first few model numbers have the big slot in the back instead of the PC Card slot.

They actually released two versions of the hard drive/ethernet option (also for the Linux kit) in Japan, one for the PC Card PS2's (a PC Card with a cable to an external box) and one for the internal slot PS2's.

Cryptnotic

post nov 20000 anti-piracy Dreamcast workaround

[mastagee]

is here

The bioses in US dreamcasts manufactured after November 2000 will not boot audio/data multi-session cds. This was done because major piracy groups (Echelon mainly) were using this as their primary self-booting game format. The workaround is to convert the audio/data cd to a data/data cd.

Divx on my TV!!

[SilencedScream]

When this is released how long could it possibly be before we are able to play divx movies on our TV through the PS2. No more packing the computer between rooms with the other alternative being watching them on a little 17" monitor. Can't wait to see what happens!

I can see it now.

Hey buddy. Wanna play MGS2 tonight?
You can't? Why?
Hackers!?!
Did what to your PS2?
You were running what?
Whatever!
"click"

Difference: MS controls the BIOS

[yerricde]

Microsofts makes the X-Box Microsoft does not have a very good security record for "Keeping People Out."

Until now, Microsoft never wrote a BIOS. The typical PC BIOS lets you replace the bootloader with lilo, grub, etc. However:

• The Xbox BIOS checks a digital signature stored on the DVD before running any code.
• All code is encrypted with something presumably much stronger than DVD-Video CSS.
• The disc format probably severely breaks the strict DVD-ROM standard anyway.

Short of desoldering the Xbox's BIOS chip and replacing it with a mod chip, how can you insert your own code into the Xbox's bootstrap sequence?

Remember the Mod chip?

[FatAlb3rt]

The PS1 did NOT play standard CD-ROMs - you had to hack the unit to make your burned units work.

I'd have wagered that the PS2 would make this a little harder to do, but follow that link -- it looks EASIER.

Re:Remember the Mod chip?

[Junta]

But they were encoded as normal CDs mostly. They just had an extra country code and bad blocks, and it was up to the hardware of the Playstation to explicitly check for these things. The modchip just feeds a false positive for these checks. If people swapped discs with the door sensor propped "closed" just after the code and blocks were verified but before boot data was loaded, then no modchip is necessary, but makes things much more convenient. So if it can load PS1 cds, it can *physically* load normal CD-ROMS, just as it can play normal music CDs... I would imagine a modified driver could likely bypass these checks, and the possibility of this happening makes them try to keep the CD/DVD drivers as far away from the hacking community as possible.

Re:Remember the Mod chip?

[nosferatu1001]

I didn't need a mod chip for my PS, as i had the original MK1...would play anything at all, and had the much better heatsink so no overheating problem either..

ah, i remember PS thumb from too much Raiden....

Potential of Linux

[j3110]

Since linux practically runs on every D@#$ thing in the world, is free, has a metric ton of developer tools... I have only one question...
Why doesn't anyone ship a cd that boots linux,X11 4.01, and then runs their 3D game? If a game developer did this would they not be able to run it on Mac,PC(3D accel required), PS2(special ver.), XBOX(sure that's next if not already), Toaster Oven, etc. Seems like if a game developer really wanted to hit the entire market, they could use BSD or Linux pretty easily... I don't know how the GPL plays with shipping a binary linux kernel with a commercial product, but BSD license is all peachy. Even GPL, can you not just ship the source code on the same CD for everything but your game. (Linux distro's do this, so I don't see why game developers can't.) I don't see what I'm missing. Seems to me a larger market base for games + more games for linux is a win-win situation for the Linux community and the game publishers. Is the compiler for those processors just not optimized? Is there no OpenGL X11 support for the video of the PS2? Is Sony intentionally not wanting to compete with computers? Any fine game developers/legal experts/people generally smarter than me want to point out the flaw in my thinking? (Assuming it's flawed because someone else would have already jumped the idea if it was feasible. Then again, it could be at least a new goal for linux. I know a lot of gamers that would enjoy the power of linux. I know linux wasn't developed for realtime processes, but 2.4 is decent. I'm sure a game dev would tweak the scheduler.)

Re:Potential of Linux

[Rhone]

Why doesn't anyone ship a cd that boots linux,X11 4.01, and then runs their 3D game?

I stopped buying Windows games very soon after I started using Linux, because I really don't like rebooting my system into a different OS just to play a game--it's at least not something I want to pay money for. I also like to easily switch back and forth between a game I'm playing and my E-mail, someone I'm chatting with, etc., and I like to be doing those things with the software I like, the software I usually use--Linux software.

I imagine that Windows users probably feel the same way, and wouldn't appreciate booting into an unfamiliar OS, and separating themselves from the software they're used to, just to play a game. The people who would benefit from your idea are probably outnumbered by the Windows users who wouldn't buy such a game, thus making the idea a little uneconomical for the developers.

Re:Potential of Linux

[Amon Re]

I very much doubt that the Playstation uses OpenGL to do its graphics.

Re:Potential of Linux

[Grahf666]

I'm pretty sure it does, actually.

Kernel version?

[MrCreosote]

Anyone else note the kernel version in the log?

2.2.1

Surely they can get a little more up-to-date than that.

DVD player

[Geeky Frignit]

I haven't tried my PS2 as a DVD player since my roommate owns a regular DVD player, but I have heard that the PS2 has some problems playing movies and whatnot.

With the Linux boot, though, could you get a better Linux player making movies easier to watch. And ooh, an interface to use the PS2 remote in Linux so I can have remote-controlled use of an ogg player.

Re:DVD player

[Junta]

I think the reports of problems have been greatly exagerrated. I've played many DVDs on my PS2 without issue..

I will wait till more information is available

[Da J Rob]

OK, so you put in the Linux boot disk... then what happens? Does LILO boot the linux kernel that you have stored on the PS2 hardrive? Or does it boot a kernel that resides on the CD.... my guess is one on the CD. Now Playstation 2's will not play any type of burned media.... CD or DVD. (Unless you mod your playstation2 and get a GameShark boot disk). So what happens when I want to patch the kernel? Or edit my startup scripts? Or just flat change my distro? I'm sure Suse or Redhat will have something before too long....

Also if the kernel is on the boot CD, I just cant eject that CD and put in a MP3/DivX/DVD disk in it either.... meaning I'm going to have to pull any content that I want from those types of media from another source on my network. Granted... there is a certain amount of geekish pride in rigging it this way, but its definitely not conveinent. Who (outside of slashdot readers) has ethernet strung to thier entertainment centers?

- J Rob

Re:I will wait till more information is available

[ZaMoose]

PS2 not able to read burned CDs? Bollocks, I say! I burn CDs all the time and then test out their success by playing a few tracks on my PS2. Not a problem.

Kernel probably gets loaded into memory anyways, so you could eject the boot media and pop something else in.

What really excites me about this though is the concept of doing an NFS mount back to my PC in my home office and playing back my music collection through my stereo (which is hooked up to the PS2 via an optical cable). Now that's what I call slick.

Re:I will wait till more information is available

[KwamiMatrix]

To answer your question, PS2 Linux is first booted from the PS2 DVD-Rom. It is then set up on the PS2 HDD, and the last step is to copy the PS2 boot files to a PS2 memory card to make a bootable memory card. For more info, visit this thread at Gamedev.net that I had with someone. Gamedev Also, visit this for detailed PS2 Linux info. You will want to translate it, unless you understand japanese. Japanese PS2 Linux

duel cpu's...

[|_uke]

Maybe I do not fully understand the technology in the PS2 correctly... but doesn't it actually have TWO 300mhz cpu's? I believe one of them has a bus directly to the graphics core...

(Okay, technically it has 3 cpu's... if you consider the I/O Controller is actually a psx core... and I do believe it is supposed to be somewhat programmable... but I could be wrong hehehe)

Looking at the dmsg log.. it seems only one of the cpu's are being initialized.

Re:duel cpu's...

[Emil Brink]

The PS2 only has one actual CPU, the MIPS-based Emotion Engine. Far more detail is available in this nice ArsTechnica article.

Re:duel cpu's...

[PygmySurfer]

> Maybe I do not fully understand the technology in the PS2 correctly... but doesn't it actually have TWO 300mhz cpu's? I believe one of them has a bus directly to the graphics core...

The PS2 has the main CPU (The emotion engine), a FPU, as well as two Vector Units (VU0 and VU1). The vector units are what makes it difficult to program for the PS2.. But, they also increase the functionality of the PS2..

For example, for SSX: Tricky, EA used one of the VUs for DTS decoding, for multi channel surround sound (The PS2 only does Dolby Digital/DTS for DVDs, not for actual games). Developers can also use the VUs strictly for graphics, or anything else really.

Linux on Xbox ain't gonna happen without HW mods

[yerricde]

Of course it's only a matter of time before some clever people do port Linux to XBox.

Ain't gonna happen. Microsoft controls the BIOS, and the Xbox will run only signed, encrypted code. See my previous comment. Of course, you could theoretically throw in a mod-chip, but Microsoft would use its vast re$ources to sue any mod-chip maker out of existence.

Why not just buy a laptop?

[HanzoSan]

If you want a portible computer a laptop is far more powerful, plays games just as well if not better, and best yet, Linux was DESIGNED for it unlike the mutilated PS2 Linux.

I think this is a waste of time, just like the Dreamcast linux, If developers want to do something useful, Improve linux for the computer, work on the kernel, work on KDE, Gnome, do something which matters to everyone and not something which matters to a few thousand people LITERALLY.

Re:Why not just buy a laptop?

[mirwor]

uh, uh, don't you know?
Linux wasn't designed

Where? How?

[ragnarok]

I want one of these NOW. Anyone know where I can get one?

What about video quality on a regular TV?

[efgarcia]

It looks like all the screen shots we are seeing coming from a PS2 connected to a monitor. Are there any from a PS2 running Linux while connected to a regular, not HD or HD ready, TV? I was just wondering how good it looks for those of us without an RCA MM52110.

Thanks,
Eric Garcia

Re:This is no beta. We've been tricked!

[Hal-9001]

Well, there is this article (hyperlink from the original posted link, where Shin'ichi Okamoto, senior vice president and chief technical officer of Sony Computer Entertainment, said that although he couldn't provide a U.S. release date for the PS2 Linux Kit yet, "we'll be able to announce it soon."

That article is dated October 24th, 2001, so the question is whether that pre- or postdates the disclaimer on the PS2 Linux Kit website stating that

• The Linux Kit is designed exclusively for the Japanese model of "PS2", SCPH-10000,SCPH-15000 and SCPH-18000. Since these models are for domestic use in Japan, the Linux Kit is only available in Japan.
  
• At this point, there is no plan to release the Linux Kit for non-Japanese model of "PS2".
  
• Overseas delivery is not available.

I for one hope this if for real, because for me, like for timothy, this would be the straw that breaks the camel's back and convinces me to purchase a PS2.

Re:This is no beta. We've been tricked!

[Hal-9001]

Check out this dmesg [ps2linux.com] on the site. Look familiar?!?. Ya I though so.

Not surprising, since he leads that excerpt with "Below is the output of dmesg from the Linux Kit running off a japanese version of the playstation 2"... :-p

Re:What about linking non-free sources?

[cgleba]

very interesting point. . .I wonder if Sony has made their mod sources available. . . .

DVD playing under PS2 Linux

[Koitsu]

Does this mean that we'll see a region-free DVD player for PS2 Linux? :)

Re:DVD playing under PS2 Linux

[updatelee]

install a mod chip, either neo4 now or messiah when it comes out. this will allow region free dvd, direct boot cdr (psx and ps2) and easy single swap dvdr (ps2). this will also allow you to write apps for the ps2 and burn them on cdr/dvdr and boot em, dont worry about sony copyprotection anymore :)

Chris Lee
lee@mediawaveonline.com

That's a silly question...

[ebbomega]

Games designed SPECIFICALLY for PS2 are supposed to work better on a computer that's not running a dedicated gaming platform? On a laptop, no less?

Honestly. What have you been smoking and where can I get some?

I'd rather pay a couple hundred dollars on a PS2 and Linux kit than drop 3k on a state-of-the-art laptop that is NOT going to have any new software specifically for its own design two years down the road.

It's not like anybody's going to buy a PS2 simply for the Linux patch, but it DEFINATELY makes it a far more attractive option than its Microsoft counterpart by one-upping the X-box's sole credit towards its design: Being a PC and a gaming console rolled into one.

And I'm just gonna leave Gamecube _alone_.

binary compabitibility

[leowhockseng]

It is not an IA32 cpu. Most programes need to be recomplied. Note that it come with gcc.

Games....

[StarTux]

You know Everquest is owned by Sony, would not take them much to tell them to port to Linux so that they can have it run on the PS2, so that all these Play Station users can play graphical MMORPG's.

This could be a potential Gold Mine for Sony.

Just a thought,

Matt

PS2 beats the Xbox and GameCube

[claygate]

I think that if Sony could put their marketing behind this machine, one which runs email and web browsing plus star office as a free office suite, they will destroy the sub $1000 computer market. Why would anyone buy another desktop at $1000 if this machine does it better? For kids the games on the PS2 are easier to get up and running. For the student you just want to be able to type and save your papers, for the college kid, gran turismo AND pr0n on the same machine. For parents... I guess online banking and DVDs, you get the picture. THIS is what home computers really are. The custom made $1500 machines we build are our hotrods. These are your Honda Civics.

DivX Movies?

[SilentDissonance]

Hmmm...

Since the PS2 can now run Linux, could it be used as a "copy machine" for movies; set it up to just copy down that DVD and encode it, thus pissing off the RIAA et al.

I'm just as excited about this as all of you are, I've been waiting for this for a while, it'll be a cool new toy to play with. I just hope some suit doesn't ruin my fun :(.

Re:DivX Movies?

[Junta]

Actually, as of late a number of non-x86 only solutions are available. OpenDivX and ffmpeg for two are cross-platform, and have been used along with cross-platform mp3 codecs to provide playback of DivX avis on more platforms. Try the CVS version of avifile-0.6, or mplayer. I haven't had a chance to try, but the included aviplay or another program (i.e. PythonTheater) should work on non-x86 for some avis...

PS2, Linux and TiVo

[caferace]

Curiouser and curiouser....

Actually, this all sort of makes sense, and looks very promising. Sony wisely alpha tests its PS2 Linux in Japan, where most of the engineering is done. After major developmental bugs are worked out, and exploring the potential Sony licenses the TiVo technology (also Linux based) for the next seven years.

Now granted, just like most huge companies the PS2 division is likely far removed from the TiVo Sony folks. But the 40HDD is just begging for PVR functionality and you can bet there are some Japanese engineers that are already chomping at the bit.

I give it three months before someone has their PS2 hacked with TiVo functionality.

Mame and other emulators?

[mccalli]

A PS2 that could emulate older machines would be superb. Mame would be the prime candidate, but there are others too - notably the Spectrum, C64 and Amiga and perhaps also the ST.

Has anyone who has used one of these kits tried running any emulators on it?

Cheers,
Ian
(Anyone for Asteroids Deluxe followed by a game of Paradroid 90 followed by Dark Cloud?)

Another site bites the dust

[Sk3lt]

Another Site bites the dust.
Dum dum dum.
Another site bites the dust.

Heh Slashdotted..

Anyway this will be a cool idea only if developers take advantage of it.. otherwise its pretty useless.

Sony should release something like it did the for the PSOne (Yaroze) so that people can create their own games and with Linux it would allow for much more.

Cool.

Ask Slashdot! Can i use it in the old world?

[Lispy]

Ok, after Japan theres an US Version..great!
But i live in germany...my question is:
Does anyone know if this totally cool thing will ship in germany at all and if, when?

If not, then can i just order the US-Version and play german discs or is there something like an area code or incompatible connectors i should be aware of??

Thanks for any help...id really LOVE to use the PS2 but i wont buy it before i can use it with the Linuxkit....

Lispy

Re:Ask Slashdot! Can i use it in the old world?

[child_of_mercy]

i've heard march release

thats not firm though

Sign me up!

[joeler]

I am ready to buy, already have a PS2 that works great - ok - I confess, I am not too good at many games so I cheat, I use the Gameshark ( "Gameshark" should have discounts for ARRP members :) ). We already had a dedicated DVD player so we don't use the PS2 too much for watching DVDs .

BTW the new Sony remote includes a software update that greatly improves the dvd player capabilities in the PS2 ( the older version was region selectable, not sure if the new version is the same). The only problem I had was hooking up the PS2 with the dolby digital sound, my DD receiver only had one optical input, and the dedicated dvd player was already selected becasue it had a better remote. However,recently, I learned that radio Shack has a cheap 4 way adapter for digital optical input. I already ordered extra digital cable from Gameshark ( cheaper there) and ready to go with the PS2 fully intrigated into our home entertainment system with digital sound. I am looking forward to MGS2 and others using 5.1 sound.

Linux is the icing on the cake, already happy with the PS2! Two of my favorites in one package Linux and the PS2.

too cool for words

[pfharlock]

Ok, this is cool, this is too cool. I was just thinking the other day that I wished some ingenous hacker would make a ps2 port. I never expected sony to condone such an action. Biggest question, are they gonna develop an XFree86 DRI 3d module for it? If not, no biggy, if so, ohhh my god, my playstation all of a sudden does better than my desktop. That's kinda disconcerting really.

dosn't work for split links

[autopr0n]

that won't help if the link is split up by slash's anti-anti-format features.

PS2 with a real OS

[Anonymous Coward]

This really reminds me of the Amiga. As some of you know the Amiga was originally going to be just a video games console. Then someone thought he could make money on it as a computer instead and added a keyboard and mouse as well as adjusting the OS. It turned out to be a very nice environment. I get the exact same feeling when I think about a PS2 with Linux and a keyboard.

Glad you found a legit reason

[biglig2]

I mean, imagine buying a games console and playing games on it? You'd be shunned.

PS2 linux ONLY site

[Putz19]

Linux PS2

Take a look at that link, only talks about Linux for Playstation's, BOTH 1 and 2. It has downloads for linux playstation kernals and other things. The site looks to be using slashcode also. :)

Enjoy.

Re:Wow

[archen]

I heard somewhere that the PS3 would be using linux as a platform. Of course all that would be hidden away I imagine. Then again I might be misinformed, but it's an interesting idea.

Here's a question...

[Sukashi]

I haven't been following the whole PS2/linux thing, so this may sound stupid to some. Will the PS2/linux box still be able to play PS2 games, or are you just turning it into a regular Linux box?

Visit the japanese sites !!!!!

[mxpengin]

You should visit the japanese sites about the playstation (they are a thousand times more interesting than this article). whis is a copy of old japanese sites .... even if you dont undertand a bit of japanes , the will be truly interesting.
this showing the installation(lloks familiar?)
the same process
a session playing with sony's demos
a page with lots of links
Playstation linux user group

My 2 cents

[FooMasterZero]

Lets hope this doesn't turn out to be like beta max of ye olde times and gets ignored by the public because sony rules this this toy with an iron fist (* i am sure someone will be able to watch pr0n with it sooner or later *).

This is a new battlefield where sony already has a good foot in and decent name recognition, and M$ does not (* well unless you count msnbc or something *) hopefully sony can keep thier head out of thier arse.

Since xBox is more or less a home computer anyways i am sure microsoft already is planning to do something like this since most of the hardware is probably already there and Linux is such a big threat to them that they must thwart it in any given sector. so it won't be long before office XP is availble with IE 6 and AOL or what not further assimilating the generally ignorant public.

However i am curious how nintendo will play in all of this since they aren't making a whole heck of alot of PR on thier side of things.

I will most likely buy one in hopes that i will be able to build MAME and such to play on my tv. As far as being able to hack i am sure there will be some of that allowed but alot has changd since the commodore days so who knows what kind of policies they have in place, and besides hacking and coding is what my other computer is for :)

This does raise an interesting possibility...

[ZaMoose]

Namely, running XBoxGW on your PS2 to enable you to play Halo online. Betcha Billy G. would pitch a hissy fit *grin*

Finally... Pong on my ps2

[gramlin]

Ok. Finally there might be
an *available* port of mame
for the ps2...

PS3: Linux out of the box?

[Sarin]

These linux expansions could be really Sony's first experimental steps into a completely linux based ps3

Re:PS3: Linux out of the box?

[BayAreaRefugee]

The main reason for it not being up to its armpits in games isn't technical (albeit there are issues there), it is the law of supply and demand. Game developers simply get more bang for their buck on Winx or game platforms where there's more demand.

Your reasons:

1) multitasking - Yes, Unix/Linux systems are designed as general purpose multi-tasking systems, but with the right engineering, can be made to work in parallel with a single-tasking game system. Probably not on a PS2, but perhaps on a PS3 with additional processor that could run Linux in the background, it could be simply a matter of switching resources to the processor with the game loaded on it. Thus the game is not impacted, and the user has access to Linux and the net with a button press. However some server-based daemons, etc. could run on the Linux processor to enhance certain games that for MUD's, etc. that could be left running all of the time, even when the user is playing another game locally.
2) X - as noted, X itself isn't designed as a windowing system for playing games, but those who on Suns have played Aviator (way before comparable flight sims were available on PC's) or Doom, know that one can build ways of directly talking to the display hardware and bypass the windowing system to achieve performance. The processor handling the PS/2 game could either swap itself onto the display hardware or punch a hole in the windowing system to display a game window as if it is displaying under X.
3. If Linux is running in the background after initial boot, and PS2 games can be loaded while it is resident, there should be little or no impact.

I'm not speaking with intimate knowledge of what's going on at Sony there. But I could certainly see with the PS3 that Linux could be the real nice glue that allows compatibility with older PS and PS2 games, and allows it to move to becoming more of an internet appliance/server that I and many others want that will also run Linux apps, etc. It would be great to have the options for a monster to tell me "You've got mail from xxx" before I kill it if there's something I'm waiting to be sent to me.

The nice thing about it being on a PS2 is that Sony can have it's future game environment well integrated with Linux if it is developing it themselves, whereas with an XBox, MS won't be giving it much thought and even if it were to be running, likely wouldn't be as well integrated.

Remember, this is a 32MB machine

[Junks Jerzey]

It's not like you could just bring most Linux software over to it without experiencing extreme virtual memory thrashing.

PS2 Linux detailed Info

[KwamiMatrix]

For more info, visit this thread at Gamedev.net that I had with someone.

<A href="http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/foru m.asp?forum_id=39">Gamedev</A>

Also, visit this info from someone selling theirs on Ebay.

<A href="http://cgi.ca.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=1289509229">PS2 On Ebay</A>

mail/email Sony and express enthusiasm

[emin]

Just like everyone else, I'm really excited about being able to get a PS2 and run Linux on it. Is there a mail/email address for the appropriate place in Sony that I can write to? I'd like to tell them that as soon as they release this in the US I'll be at the store waiting in line to buy it.

Since we all spend a lot of effort writing letters to companies who do things we DON'T like, it would be nice to write letters and express support (both moral and financial) for companies that do things we DO like.

By the way, many schools seem interested in buying computers for their students/teachers. With Linux running on a PS2, these schools could now have a cheap hardware platform which can run office apps, graphics, math programs, and play DVD's and video games! What do you think kids would be more excited about, getting a free desktop running Windows or a free PS2 running Linux?

MS controls the private key

[yerricde]

Copy the signature byte for byte and put it where the bootloader looks for it?

Signature. Not magic cookie. Copying magic cookies (e.g. "Licensed by Sega" code) is legal under Sega v. Accolade, but Xbox's BIOS probably verifies the digital signature against the actual game data using asymmetric crypto where Microsoft holds the private key, and then stores the software decryption keys in the lead-in (like DVD-Video CSS) and probably makes some other major violations of the DVD-ROM standard. How are you going to burn the DVD again?

Why do people Dis the Xbox for being a "pc" and ..

[cybrthng]

Why is it that when the Xbox was released people say it "Is only a PC disguised as a console".

Now that the PS2 runs linux in the states, people are praising the console for becoming an affordable "pc".

If this was linux coming out on the xbox then people would say you can buy a more powerfull pc for the price of the xbox + keyboard + mouse when in all reality by the time you add a hard drive, floppy drive, keyboard, mouse, and monitor to your PS2 you have WELL EXCEEDED the cost of a XP 1900 system with tripple resources.

I don't get it. Do you want a console or another PC or is it only Anti Microsoft that the Xbox is a doomed "pc" and the PS2 is a great "pc"?

Hell, i got linux running on my Dreamcast, which is fine and dandy, but not going to replace my pc. More of a hack and a way to produce my own software and run it on the DC.

So yeah, its cool linux runs on another box, but this ranting and raving about how great a ps2 will be as a "pc" is about as pointless as making my Xbox a PC. They're not designed for that and for christs sake, for once the neither the Xbox or PS2 is standards compliant and both are proprietary systems so why the big fuss from such an anti-proprietary crowd and pro standard group?

Oh well, somethings i will never understand :)

Re:Where? How?

[deltwalrus]

Ditto. Sony's support people either know nothing or have been instructed to say nothing. (likely the latter)

When and how can one get a hold of one of these??

Interrested in European version?

[geggibus]

http://www.technology.scee.net/cgi-bin/sceeweb1/sc ee.pl?ps2linuxint

/K

Reason they haven't done this already

[fishexe]

is that you'd need a separate binary for each platform the software was intended to run on. Otherwise pc game manufacturers would have been doing this for years. I don't know much of the details of the iso 9660 spec but I'm presuming when you set up a boot sector (or whatever) it points to/contains a single binary and you can't make it switch based on what hardware is booting it. So your boot loader (lilo or whatever) would only be able to run on whatever architecture it was compiled for and you would only be able to boot from that version.

Or something.

That'll probably be optional...

[HiThere]

A disk would add a lot to the cost. OTOH, a small disk, or some suitable substitute, might well be a necessity if they are going to start being a full e-mail system, net browser system, etc.

Problem is, those things won't add much cash to the pocket. So they will have to be paid for up front. I expect that whole module to be an extra cost add-on (add-in?). And wouldn't be surprised if it used proprietary hardware connections.

Under this scenario one would have the basic Playstation, and its add-on. Then one would have the hard-disk/e-mail system, and it's add ons. The basic hard-disk system would have a Linux Kernel, X Window, a browser, and not much else. Then there would be the development kit that one could add on to that. This might be priced cheaply, if Sony could count on selling any software created (or on giving it away as a valued-added extra). Otherwise it would need to cover its own cost, and then a bit more.

It's RISC

[Penguinoflight]

As many of us know, this is a RISC R5000 (modified) processor. This is the same kind of chip you'd get in a 02 likely. Indy's don't get 294mhz. The potential for digital video editing is probably pretty good, because as I recall, the PS2 has a 32mb video ram, they're probably using opengl for the video (considering it's a R5000), and it's a fast video chip to do all those games.

What I'm wondering, is why hasn't Sony released the source code to their modified Linux kernel? Linux is definatly GPL, XFree86 is GPL, at least a lot of the code, and plenty more apps. Isn't porting considered big enough a change that it requires a source release?

a question about networking the ps2

[tlh1005]

Maybe someone here could answer this question... My DSL company gave me a USB modem instead of ethernet. I currently have a basic hub and this is how I share my internet connection (using internet connection sharing in win2000). I've always wanted to know if I could use internet connection sharing with my linux box or another device like the PS2, TIVO etc. IS there a way I can do this using just a hub?

Re:a question about networking the ps2

[RoninAdmin]

Yeah, but for all your devices to access the net you will need them to have either exposed IP's or NAT. The easiest cleanest answer in your situation is to get a Linksys Broadband Router for $99, and use it's nat features. You would only need a 2 port router since you already have a hub (but don't hook up more than 4 devices that will be used simultaneously, or watch yer bandwidth go poof).

Where do you buy the Linux kit for the PS2?

[cworley]

Could sombody provide a URL?

tengen vs nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Was the case that decided it I believe. Tengen produced a version of Tetris for the NES that was unlicensed (and supposedly one of the best versions made, it's prized among collectors of old school games), and courts decided that Tengen was within its rights to make the game without licensing the technology.

how major?

[RestiffBard]

all this talk of ps2linux being major begs the question "how major is it in Japan?" they've had it for months now. if i walk down the street in japan and bump into some average PS2 playing teens are they gonna know what the hell I'm talking about (lets assume i can speak japanese and they can speak english)? is ps2linux a big thing in japan and if not hwo can we expect it to eb a big thing here? I'm all gung-ho for ps2linux but where is it? i wnat one. hell i want a real pic. i want a ballpark price.

AOHell on Linux? Since when?

[MsGeek]

AOL owns Netscape. Sony sees AOL as the 'killer app' for PS2 Linux.

AOHell ported to Linux?

Links, please!

Home Entertainment Center?

[Lilkeeney]

I was thinking this would be perfect to use as a home entertainment center. You would be able to play DVDs and play games. I am not sure if this is possible, but could you play divx movies off either cd or the hard drive? How about mp3s? You could control it through the network. But if you are able to play DVDs, divx movies, mp3s, audio cds, PS2 games, linux games and control it over the network all while being relatively cheap, and in a small form factor case. Sounds like I will deffinetely have to get one. I am not sure how copy right protection works with sony, so I am not sure if this would work.

Why Linux on PS2...

[Jedi Holocron]

I read an article some months ago relating to this very concept. While I can not recall or find the exact link to the article, I'll try to relate the gist of it here.

Granted I'll admit to not having spent a lot of time dealing with Linux. I like it. I like what I've seen, but I'm far from a die hard fan/user. That may change. In any case...

The Case for Linux on the PS2:

One of the issues that seems to bother Linux is a lack of driver support. This is coupled by the myriad of nearly infite hardware combinations that are presented by the nature of PC comptable machines. Who know what hardware will be in which machine. Therefore, gobs of drivers must be available to make the product work effectively. The bonus of the PS2 is that the hardware is a given. A very focused distribution of Linux can be built and bundled with the console. It can be garrunteed to run properly because you have the same hardware in umpteen million units out there. Compatibility becomes a mostly non-issue. This is not the case with my experience with Linux in the PC compatible hardware realm.

So here is a solid base of a large number of known pieces of hardware that a very stable and secure distribution of Linux can be put on. Once that happens, software (in many forms, business apps, games, etc...) becomes that much easier to produce in a workable, stable, coherent form.

Now add into the mix Sony's partnership with AOL. As much as I hate AOL, think of the rammifications. An AOL Linux distro...run on every PS2 out there. Set top web access. Not to mention mozilla or what have you if you choose not to use the Sony/AOL service.

The Linux/PS2 bundle becomes a rather inexpensive, stable, useful internet/gaming/entertainment/home productivity device.

I'm sure I left out some of the original articles ideas, and I've added some of my own. Perhaps someone can point out the source I can't rememeber. Point being, though, the Linux/PS2 combo, if played right by Sony, could be major.

'nuff said.

Re:This is no beta. We've been tricked!

[Phil Wilkins]

The US HDD is indeed internal. The ethernet & modem unit sticks out about half an inch from the back of the PS2. Any shots with and external HDD unit are early japanese PS2s, or TOOLs (not certain about that last one, as I'm still waiting for my HDD).

The cheapest 40GB HDD in existance?

[Esoteric Moniker]

40GB hard drive for $35 huh? Please give me a link to your supplier as I'd like to order a few thousand at that price.

As for only having 32MB of RAM, it's not what you have, its what you can do with what you have. Case in point: Metal Gear Solid 2.

Re:The cheapest 40GB HDD in existance?

[Rakarra]

Why is it that I much prefer my Dreamcast's graphics to the x-box or gamecube?

Give it time. The X-Box and gamecube haven't been out for very long, and it seems like the first crop of games that go through a console are fairly rushed and of middling quality. I would certainly wait awhile before judging the X-Box or Gamecube's graphics, at least until game designers have time to innovate.

Re:The cheapest 40GB HDD in existance?

[applejacks]

Yes, 32 megabytes is quite a bit of ram and if developers would not have to use everybody else's libraries other than using one standard life would be great. I'm speaking about the LINUX. The operating system is gona eat up its portions of ram. Then X windows -- is gona have its pounds of flesh -- memory requirements. Next if your thinking about loading Gnome and Netscape 6.0 then that 32 megs is gona be gone. You'll be swaping like a cow swatting flies.:) I noticed in the screen shots they used Windowmaker. I think its rather clean and not as memory dependant as most window managers. Very cool eitherway. I still stand by my idea about building a new computer :) peace all

Re:You must be confused.

[RogrWilco]

No, I was merely making humor...

Just a (stupid) question...

[maalox]

Did anyone ever get X running on a dreamcast?

/me runs for his life

Next Release.....

[jxa00]

PS2 XP release is coming soon... as soon as they can figure out how to lock you out when you switch controllers.....

what's in it for Sony?

[child_of_mercy]

MS has declared war on Sony with the X-box

anything that weakens MS is now in Sony's interest (as long as it doesn't weaken Sony more)

widespread acceptance of linux on the desktop would be just fine for Sony

this is could shoe-horn linux in underneath Windows in a lot of homes.

PC Card slots on the PS2

[jmorris42]

Ah, shows how little I follow the console scene. So that confirms that the photo in the story was the Japanese version so we still don't know for sure what the US version looks like. If there aren't even pics yet the rumors of the price probably should be ignored as well.

I suppose a USB wireless interface would be an option as soon as one is supported. (Color me sceptical after fighting an Alcatel USB modem for my DSL line until surrendering and scrounging a SpeedTough Pro.) With the nit that a hub would be required to get keyboard, mouse and network.

ps2 slow as a k6266

[ducker]

Hasnt anyone seen any ps2 benchmarks? It goes about as fast as a k6 266 running linux.. like wow lets all get really excited about beowulf clusteres of them .. you might be able to put together say 20 and make one as powerful as an xbox.

Face it the old pc you are using now is way faster than a ps2. And if they ever add a OpenGL subsystem will help provide *basic* 3d functionality and slow the benchmarks even more.. yey again.

Go back to builing your own real pcs with linux and making them settop boxes. Sony proprietry non changable AOL linux is a marketing ploy, get over it.

Haiku not Hiku

[selfdiscipline]

Of course that might just have been a typo, considering your word, "advalible".

Mislead by /. ... again

[BiOFH]

Which effin street would this be? The Street of Dreams? The Street of the Future? The Street of Absolute Bullshit? Or maybe The Street of Beta Testers Which You Don't Live On?

You wanna be journalists... then you wanna be the freaking Weekly World News. Make up your minds! This headline is blatantly and patently false.

How about "... set to hit the street" or something that, oh, say, resembles the truth?

This product has not hit any freakin street except the street of "you can't get it yet".

I love you guys, but that love was sorely tested today. Dammit.

TheBitch

I disagree

[selfdiscipline]

From the limited material I have read, it sounds like the Xbox is not much less than a PC. Running linux on PCs wasn't too difficult, last time I checked.
Yes, there is probably something hardwired in the Xbox's bios to prevent other OSs from loading, but my bet is that there will be a simple way around it. Complex devices are very hard to make secure.

Beowulf

[madcoder47]

with such a price/performance ratio, what are the limitations that would affect the ability to hook up many PS2s to form a cluster?

I already cant wait for TuxRacer to be ported to PS2... the ice will be... so... real...

Yeas!!!

[Lispy]

That would be great, i bet til march prices for the PS2 have dropped even further. Maybe i could use this thing as network router too. Endless possibilities...;-)

Lispy

Genesis

[Halcyon-X]

An excerpt from an article at SEGA Base, hosted on, which I recommend any video game afficando to read.

"The gist of it was that EA would get to make as many games as it wanted - something Nintendo had not offered them - and a reduction in licensing fees. Sega said no. It planned to impose a restrictive contract on EA just as it had done its other licensees, one that echoed similar Nintendo arrangements. Hawkins had anticipated this, however, and pulled a one-two sucker punch on Sega. Acting on his direction, EA's negotiators brusquely informed Sega of America that it didn't have that kind of clout to throw around; furthermore, EA had already reverse engineered the console and knew how to manufacture its own unlicensed Sega cartridges."

". In response to EA's actions, Sega developed a new security system for the Genesis and quietly incorporated it into the system boot ROM starting with the 1991 production batches. Sega called this proprietary code the TradeMark Security System (TMSS). In essence, it was a simplified version of the 10NES lockout chip that Nintendo had used in the NES. Sega had elected not to go to the 10NES route because they felt that a complete lockout solution was needless overkill. Their solution, the TMSS, was based on very simple principles of intellectual property law. A piece of code burned into the Genesis boot ROM would look for a header code that was supposed to be part of every Genesis program stored in cartridge format. If the header code contained certain unique characteristics, then it was a legitimately licensed Sega product. If the TMSS did not find what it sought, then it would refuse to boot up the system. If the system booted correctly, then the TMSS would display the phrase PRODUCED BY OR UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA ENTERPRISES LTD. on the screen for a few seconds before running the program contained inside the cartridge. Both pieces of code, the one in the TMSS and the correct cartridge header code, were copyrighted Sega property. The TMSS also generated a trademark display every time it was activated, that being the Sega name itself. In essence, the TMSS was a double tripwire for anybody trying to produce unlicensed Genesis cartridges. If you made an unlicensed cartridge that activated the TMSS, then you were in violation of both copyright and trademark law. If you could figure out a way to get your game running without tripping the TMSS, then you were legally in the clear."

Hasn't anyone realized the truth?

[ProudWindowsUser]

I could be wrong and over-the-top but, to me, it's pretty obvious what Sony pretends to do with all this, since the whole purpose of Linux (Open Source/accessibility) is disrespected in not revealing any specifications to the PS2 bootstrap.

It's a sad and vile attempt to persuade Linux fans into thinking a PS2 is better than an XBox (which it isn't and you extremist anti-MS freaks know that :]) and ultimately sell more.