Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Kicks Playstation2 out of CeBit.
dnaumov writes "According to this article on ZDNET, Microsoft complained to the show organizers, Hannover Messe AG, that Sony was breaching show rules by letting people play on Sony PlayStation 2 game consoles. While Sony has been letting people play their consoles at CeBIT for the past 3 years, that didn't really bother anyone. However, MS seemed to not like the fact and filled a complaint. What makes this even more funny is that Microsoft officials denied that the company had complained to the Messe. but the show organizers confirmed that Richard Roy, vice president, corporate strategy, had complained. This effectively forced PS2 out of the show and Sony started packing their bags on Sunday. Microsoft was also displaying their XBOX console at the show."
Hmm....this would be one of the few time Microsoft has ever gained anything by playing by the rules. I find it wildly ironic. Seems like it's one of those rules that everyone ignores until one person wildly breaks it. Wonder if MS will be subtly letting people "experience" XBox at the show under some "other" name. ("No, we aren't letting them test-drive the X-Box, we're letting them 'feel' the controllers. They simply are hooked up at the time.")
KMFMS.
JoeLinux
I've never been to Cebit but, I can't help but wonder what kind of tech show has a rule prohibiting visitors from test driving the technologies on display. It seems quite rediculous to me. I certainly have no desire to visit ant show with such absurd rules.
Beyond3d's coverage noted that microsoft did not allow people to play with their xbox at the show but western digital did. Anyone at CEBit want to complain and get WD thrown out as well?
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Frankly, CeBit organizers should have told Richard Roy his company had been found in violation of U.S. antitrust law (a scared shadow of the EU version) and asked to leave with all his exhibitors - wouldn't want a legitimate trade show to lose its reputation because a piratical company happens to be there.
There's a simple solution to bullshit like this - flip Microsoft the bird and spend your and your company's money elsewhere.
p.s- if you are offended by such articles, why are you visiting the site at all?
So Sony breaks the rules, and get caught doing it. Ok where's the problem? Are we to assume that because Microsoft turned them in, that the rule never existed? Or hey, maybe Microsoft made the rule years before just so they could catch Sony in the act now that they're competators. This is nonsense. Sony broke the rule, they pay the price. The only saving grace would be if Sony wasn't aware of this rule.
I doubt that. Highly.
Microsoft makes it REALLY easy :)
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
the article mentioned that sony tried to compromise, but how? what did the various involved parties suggest? i mean, MS has the XboX on display, with employees doing the playing; surely sony could have done the same. what's the exact rule sony was violating?
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
Bash MS when it doesn't abide by the rules
Bash MS when other's don't respect the rules
I read a comment on the page of the article that was insightful and I felt I should share it. The individual who wrote it is clearly not the most well-written guy in the world, but I think you get his point.
The sand-kicking six year olds at it again. And, don't give me any of that "rules are rules" crap, cuz that don't fly when you are talking about the convicted monopolist turned snitch. I can just see the tattle-tail doing trying to imitate the fake teary eyed look of Ballmer during his latest deposition. What do they teach first at the Redmond campus, foot-stomping or lying???
Sure, we do participate in a lot of Microsoft bashing here at Slashdot -- I'll admit that. But for Christ's sake, they deserve it.
Linux -- Because You're Too Good For Those Other Crappy Kernels.
Moves like that won market for microsoft, in early days when most people did not know internet, and there were to hub sites for news. Now it is becoming quite sickening to even think of microsoft. Whats next? Contract killers to make competition more equal for microsoft, that is when microsoft is MORE equal?
Looks like beginnings of war between to giants. Business people at Sony will not take that.
Maybe if MS had a product worthy of using...........but no, thats 'flamebait'. I think it is important at any computer show, store, or tech gathering, that people get to use and play with the products and equipment. How else to better sell them? Perhaps MS should let people play on its console, even if it was against the rules.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
This is hardly another example of tyrannical Microsoft sinking to gruesome tactics that no decent company would countenance.
These companies are, after all, competing with other. Ultimately the decision about whether it's worth the (probably small) potential benefit of this sort of activity will come down to an individual who happens to be present. The potential downside is the negative publicity generated. But the difference in this happening or not is down to an individual, not a company. And you can bet there are equally zealous individuals in most big companies which have any record of successful competition.
It's not that PS2 is kicked off Cebit, or Microsoft's initiative in that direction. No, what annoys me is Microsoft's systematic lying to the public, and then it gets away with it.
And since MS can do it without any consequences, they are going to repeat it, time and again.
Sigged!
My, I certainly hope they remembered their kickball when storming off to go home.
--saint
This article does not explain this. Is it because they didn't want people playing xbox on the floor? Is it only because technically Sony shouldn't allow it?
Furthermore it appears that Sony simply didn't want to make the consoles for display only and didn't want to compromise so they decided to leave.
d.
I hate the fact that you people don't salute me
Where exactly does this article bash microsoft? It looks like they are (for once) on the right side, and the article does NOT deny that.
:-)
And what does the slashdot crew (not) using Windows have to do with this?
How is this slashdot article not friendly to all geeks? Don't most geeks *hate* MS? Well, most Real Geeks (TM) anyway
Besides, Slashdot does not have money problems. They would have if they had not given the advertisers what they wanted (i.e. bigger ads) - so they had not much choice basically.
And last but not least, I can tell from your post you're probably from the USA - so much for journalistic integrity: if you can trade it for a few bucks, do so anytime!
I'm very glad the Slashdot crew does not show any signs of using such practices. Keep the MS stories coming!
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
Pardon my ignorance, but can anyone explain the purpose of CeBIT if you can't actually play with the hardware? Particularly if the vendor is happy for you to take it for a test-drive... otherwise you may as well consider it as vapourware.
'sapientia potestas est'
its obvious they do enjoy smashing microsoft...but i doubt its for the "ads". contrary, wouldn't they like to offend as little advertisers as possible?
i think sony was letting them play on the console not just showing it or having sony employees play on it - technically its in the rules you cant do that but since messe has been letting that go on with any of the developers they shouldhave just changed the rules and allowed it - so ms wins on a technicality but both m$ and messe should think twice before pissing off sony.
Ave Molech Setting
So now we are mad at Microsoft for following the rules? (That is, not letting people play games?) I'm just making sure -- sometimes it's confusing to keep up with.
-- Hobbits suck!
as i'm doing my taxes... i think to myself...
does microsoft just write off the attorney fees as a buisness expense?
Runnin' On Empty
See? Reverse psychology does work...
;)
uhm...
This just seems to be ridiculously puerile whining on microsofts part. Now that they find themselves in an industry that they can't easily dominate, they resort to "Tattle"ing on others.
Kinda like the mean kids in grade school who alternatively beat you up and "told on you." Really, though, this is kind of funny. Especially since Microsoft denied that they complained, but the show's management confirmed it. It is possible microsoft could have Lied elsewhere?
Naaaah
Or was it a "rogue emplyee." Acting on the behalf of all the show's attendees, who had to endure being forced to play on the PS2 by those evil sony peoplem, this rogue employee bravely took it upon himself to notify the authorities about the heinous trangression of the show's logical rules. Yeah, thats it. A rogue employee.
Actually, what probably happened was that the MS people got tired of sitting around and looking at the giant lines for playing on the PS2s. So they went to do something about it. But they are still bastards. Anyone who keeps people from playing video games (for free! nonetheless) is a "bastard."
I don't see how you can call this abuse (whiny, yes - but certainly not abuse). Sony was called on by Microsoft because it is reportedly against the rules to allow people to play with the demo equipment. This doesn't bother me now, but if later I found that Microsoft was allowing people to play on their consoles after Sony left, I'd be pretty upset at MS. I'm sure Sony could have stayed if they stopped allowing people on their hardware, but instead they just packed up and left home. I'm not pro-Microsoft in the least, if anything I'm pro-Sony (yeah, yeah, they're evil...whatever.)
Except the fact that it wasn't in Yale but in UK, that the rule wasn't in latin even though it was an ancient one, that they didn't compromise to coke and cake and that the sword wasn't to be carried to exams but everywhere in the campus... you got the story almost 100% right.
Sigged!
I could have sworn that people were playing the xbox at CeBIT... should have taken a picture. And why would CeBIT care? That's the point of the show, to demo your products! Hell, I should file a complaint that MS had the Compaq ipaqs all on display and people were using them. How is this any different?
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
- As an industry trade show, gaming breaks the perception of a "corporate" and "professional" atmosphere. It's not an arcade.
- Without controls (e.g., time limits), there can be no assurance of fair access to all. MS's stance is that it's more fair to deny public access to all
- Comparative disadvantage. As the new player, a gamer is going to compare an XBox to his/her prior experience with other consoles. This invariably leads to comments like, "this controller feels
...; it's not as responsive as...; the games are better on ...."
That said, another reason is that you don't want someone to expose a bug in your software that causes your console box to die horribly on the big screen... Hence, you use employees who know what features to show and what to avoid demonstrating.Jeez, as if Microsoft has never broken the rules before....
*cough*hypo*choke*crites*cough*
-Sean
I suspect that the real reason why Microsoft was upset that Sony was allowing people to play games was that the X boxes were probably failing left and right. Plus... they wouldn't want people to play them since they'd probably crash, hang or simply not work (not to mention the comparision of lousy x-box graphics versus PS2 graphics). So the obvious solution is even the playing field by forcing the issue. Why Sony packed up and went home though is beyond me.
It seems that Microsoft is getting into the hardball tactics. Sony's just upset because no one's ever used them against the PS before.
This whole thing is juvenile, but I hardly see how this is a case of MS being unable to compete by other means. They simply chose to enforce a rule.
The XBox is hardly flopping; it's holding its own quite well. Sales of 1.5 million is enough to stay in business - just because they're not outselling Sony doesn't mean they're a failure.
stop the madness
Who would buy gaming hardware from stuck up pricks
The over a million gamers who don't give a damn about what they support with their money.. ?
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
Microsoft has been busy showing the Xbox on its stand with employees demonstrating its console.
Why would I want to watch a M$ employee crash the Xbox??? I wanted to do that!
Isn't it funny how you conveiently quote the entire first paragraph except for the last sentence?
/. The lame final sentence of the post:"Microsoft was also displaying their XBOX console at the show." just shows the length some people go to in order to make Microsoft bad. Notice that this says "displaying", not "playing".
Here is the entire first paragraph (note the last sentence):"Microsoft complained to the show organizers, Hannover Messe AG, that Sony was breaching show rules by letting people play on Sony PlayStation 2 game consoles. Technically, this was right and the Messe was forced to act on the complaint"
What is news here? There were rules, and Sony broke them. It's as simple as that. Microsoft had every right to complain to the organizers, as did every other vendor. The fact that nobody complained in the previous years has no bearing at all. If I commit a crime, and nobody knows and therefore nobody complains, is it ok to commit a second crime? Nobody complained about my prevoius crime, so it must be ok, right?
If you ask me, I say this entire post should be considered a troll and be removed from
The only reason it's here is that it's a story about Microsoft doing something to protect themselves.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
This article isn't about flaming Microsoft, it's about laughing at it.
I don't see why they didn't put up a sign advertising the Playstation 2 with some of the following slogans:
"So good that Microsoft doesn't want you to see it!"
"Too much fun for Microsoft to handle!"
"We've been here for 3 years longer than the XBox, we have defined gaming for years, and now Microsoft wants to keep you from having a little fun..."
"MS: You can't handle the truth!"
These are just a few ideas, and sure they can lead to MS bashing, but I don't think that packing up and leaving is a very competitive approach. If they have a better product, why not make it a big deal? If they can't demo at CeBIT, why bother? After all, they presumably pay a fee to participate, and in exchange there should be some open discussion of the rights of the vendors.
I don't even play games anymore, but this whole debacle steams me. If MS had a problem, and they believed in their product, then they should have asked if it would be okay to start demoing their product as well. Instead, one can only infer that they regard the PS2 as a superior product. By the way... that seems to be a great endorsement for the PS2: Microsoft believes the PS2 is a superior product. Coool.... now I know which game system to get, if I ever get around to it.
Cheers.
Hmm.. well we're all quick to shout 'MS sucks!' over this, but this story is seriously lacking in details. There's just enough of a hint that there's a larger story going on here, I'm not willing to play judge.
Why would MS complain about Sony unless they did something to provoke it? MS has employees demonstrating XBOX's, right? What if that was because MS read the rules and decided to bring a bunch of employees down to man the stations, only to find Sony stations unmanned so the public could play. I'd be mad about that. That means MS had to pay more people to come down.
What if Sony tried to complain about MS's booth being too loud, so MS fired a tit-for-tat shot back?
What if people were hovering around the Sony stations simply to play games, and they didn't want to go anywhere else because they couldn't play games? That means that Sony has an unfair advantage to attracting people.
We don't know enough about this story to pass judgement, so please reserve your karma whoring 'I hate MS!' posts for the time when actual facts arrive.
"Derp de derp."
And I have proof!
like it or not, MS has succeeded in making the xbox stable as hell.
and if you want a honest comparison of the graphics, i prefer the xbox to the PS2 as well. i have both systems, and thats just my opinion, but the xbox seems to have smoother graphics.
whether i think the MS complaining at Cebit i wont go into here, im basically just responding to your 2 points... and both of your points about the xbox's shortcomings are certainly undeserved
You can argue when it comes to software, but on the hardware side the Xbox is easily superior to the GC/PS2.
Tell all the people who were playing games that they were immediately being hired by Sony. Have people sign up for 1 hour "shifts". You can play whatever you want but are required to play for the full hour. Then pay everybody who plays $50 for their trouble. Then they are "employees" and it's all good.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Message from SONY: "See ya at Tokyo game show, Microsoft ;-)"
;-) At least they can make their way in the States. Did you say uncompetitive practices again? No...
BTW, just came back from Japan last week. The XBox is doing very poorly over there. People are complaining about compat and quality issues over the system itself (DVD filing and over heating, noise, etc...) and the quality of the games in general. The video game press in Japan doesn't say good things neither about XBox. All you hear about is Sony new network and Game Cube awesome new titles.
Poor M$
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Cakes and Ale
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
From Story:
This effectively forced PS2 out of the show and Sony started packing their bags on Sunday.
From Article:
On Sunday morning Sony started packing up its 27 PS2s.
I don't know what anyone else reads from this article, but I read Sony packed up the consoles they were letting people play, nothing about leaving the show. Maybe Sony did leave the show, but I doupt that, and the article does not say specifically. I really can't see Cebit making Sony mad by completly kicking them out, they just told them to stop breaking the rules.
iRepairIT - iPhone, Mac, & PC Repair
Unless Microsoft runs CeBit, it would be accurate (as opposed to CmdrTaco's verbiage) to say that *CeBit management* "kicked out" Sony.
Why would Microsoft care? Hmm, maybe because they were following the rules and didn't plan to have people playing on the Xbox, which would only have been fair if Sony was doing it?
You can imagine the strident bitching that would appear if *Microsoft* had broken the rules and had scores of Xbox stations set up for people to play.
kind of off-topic, but I think he was saying it in a spanish accent.
I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
</monty python>
If MS had been allowing people to play xbox games and Sony filed a complaint and had them kicked out, you'd all be cheering Sony on. The only reason this made the news in the first place was because the article could be sold as MS oppressing the competition.
Sony broke the rules, now they suffer the consequences. This story really has nothing to do with MS. Deal with it.
Citing the the ZDNET article: "On Sunday morning Sony started packing up its 27 PS2s. The show, in Hannover, Germany, officially finishes on Wednesday." This is very misleading if you read it sloppy. Sony did not leave the show. They removed the PS2s, no more no less. The entire Sony booth is 2000 square meters, only 100 square meters where dedicated to the PS2. The rest is still there. This article by German magazine c't explains the situation in much more detail. Use the fish translation if you don't understand German.
-J
Though I agree about it being it being more powerful than PS2, the GC is harder to measure. The developer interviews i've read basically said that the GC is better at some things, and the XBOX is better at other things. At this point, it's the artists behind the systems that will provide better graphics.
Getting back on topic, this little episode has no bearing on my playing games on an XBOX or on Sony. Neither MS nor Sony make games for their systems that I want to buy. They simply provide the systems. Now if a game company threw a temper tantrum and left because they were caught breaking the rules, then I'd be cautious about buying games from them.
"Derp de derp."
Unlike Comdex, CeBit starts out as a serious and sober event. It is well organized. It is very productive. It is run by Germans. It does not have buxom booth bunnies. (OK, not Los Vegas-style booth bunnies and those that are there are few and far between and you can't get your picture with them.)
The only giddy joy and adventure at CeBit beyond the cool tech is the day the local kids come in to get and trade pins, and at night in the on-site beer hall, getting drunk, then challenging some Japaneese company to tug of war and hooting ape calls. Who needs language?
While Microsoft was fully justified in complaining if the sound was loud at the Sony booth, it sure sounds like they are taking on the role of smarmy tattle tale. That in itself is not in the spirit of CeBit.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Those days are dead in console gaming. At least for this year.
Name the latest game you actually replayed? Barring Tony Hawk-esque games, for me that would be FF7. Wow.
I give the console industry another year to actually crank out a good replayable plot game.
And yes, I own an XBOX. Yes, I run Linux. I'm a cross-techer...
-Saint Archan
Blah to the skins and Blah to the punks and Blah to the world and everybody sucks.
Looks like there was a GameCube on show available for play as well. I believe it was at ATI's stand.
At this point is it even possible to think any less of Microsoft?
But did they "pick up their toys and go home"? If so, how many of their toys?
They packed up their consoles. I imagine they were forced to (see below). I also imagine they left their other products. "Sony Ericsson['s] stand
Note also that Microsoft didn't just snitch; they had some kind of approval/veto power. Microsoft may have had the power to force all the Playstations out of the show.
I look forward to further coverage.
(I found a German article; the Google translation included, "CeBIT nomenclature over contents of the fair in principle neither entertainment electronics nor plays may be pointed. Microsoft presents its play console "Xbox" behind glass." Try searching for "Udo Freialdenhofen," some Sony media relations person.)
And why might Microsoft be extra offended? Maybe because of this (cached link): "Those of you in Germany can see the [Playstation 2] linux kit in action at CEBIT in Hanover this week, from 13-20th March. We're on the Sony stand in hall 2, C02." They didn't just toss a competing game console; they got a bunch of Linux machines thrown out of the show!
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Pity that there aren't any others.
If you do, you're helping to kill the console industry.
ender-iii
From the poster of the article: What makes this even more funny is that Microsoft officials denied that the company had complained to the Messe. but the show organizers confirmed that Richard Roy, vice president, corporate strategy, had complained.
Now you can calm down.
Sigged!
Big bully Microsoft knocks Sony out of the playground.
Sony's going to get the sympathy vote out of this. And portrayed as a victim in the press.
Dumb move Microsoft.
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
I can't help but wonder if this is the whole story. Does anybody out there in /. land have first hand knowledge of what really happened?
;-)
Visitors not being able to touch the equipment sounds like a completely brain dead rule. The whole reason for going to the show is to see what you are buying, before you actually order it. Otherwise you might was well look at the spam the vendor mails you. If this is really true, then CEBIT is a complete waste.
I can see though why Microsoft might not want visitors playing with the Xbox--it's probably too buggy. What do you get, the black screen of death? Oh no, I forgot, it's the new friendly Microsoft and now it is the Pink Screen of Death.
Anyway, another entry for my growing spin doctor dictionary:
Microsoft: Hands on Demo = Risky = Therefore Competition is Against the Rules.
Microsoft was not able to demo the XBOX, much to the disappointment of people who wanted to play with it because of the CeBit rules. There's no reason why they should be the only ones having to play by them.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Even reporters troll.
MS: You're cheat-in'! I'm telling!! I'm telling!
Sony: Tell you what. We'll Rochambeau you for it.
MS: What's Rochambeau?
Not much more to add to my subject.
...Steve
1- Does anyone have the exact wording of the rule which Sony are supposed to have broken (preferably in English)?
2- Does anyone have any information (i.e. not speculation) as to the purpose of the rule?
3- I would have thought that a large group of people playing PS/2s would have been an easy thing to spot. Why did the CeBIT organisers not notice it for themselves? If they did notice and did nothing then that demonstrates to me that its not a rule that they actualy care about.
4- Are rules like this common? I've been to lots of trade exhibitions in my time (admitedly most were not computer ones) and salesmen are normally keen to let potential customers try out the products (possibly under supervision).
That Sony has violated?
I assume you meant "File"...
The link to the babelfish translation was broken for me. However this link works fine.
MOD THE CHILD UP!
Actually I just Googled the answer to my own question, and as usual, the American Press is as Winston Churchill said, "Vulgar and Without Substance."
The following article in German from Heise.de explains that the reason for ejecting Playstations from the show was that CeBIT is a tradeshow for "Business and Professional" exhibits. You cannot display consumer electronics or games. That is why Microsoft shows the Xbox only behind glass, and Sony showing 27 PS-2 boxes to play with was against the rules.
Yes, Microsoft's whining is pretty sad, but killing the PS-2 display had little to do with hands-on vs. suits showing off.
A VP of stratagy did this huh? Heres a stratagy for Microsoft, goto hell and get burned by the devil.
"Actually, according to the story, Sony offered to only permit its own employees to operate the PS2's"
w _media/newsid_1879000/1879078.stm
That statement (or anything like it) is nowhere in the linked article.
Also Microsoft was not the only company to complain.
From http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/ne
"A spokeswoman for CeBIT told BBC News Online: "We received complaints from many, many exhibitors about Sony, including from Microsoft."
[snip]
The spokeswoman added: "Both companies were showing their machines but Microsoft followed the rules and did not have any games to play on it, while Sony did. CeBIT is not for playing games."
She said CeBIT asked Sony to switch the games off but instead the company removed all of its consoles from the fair.
"It could be they were angry," she added.
No news here. Recall that MicroSoft pulled this same stunt with a local LUG in Tampa -- the Suncoast LUG ( http://www.suncoastlug.org ) when 'Mad Dog' and the LUG were pulling the attention away from whatever product MicroSoft was flogging at the time.
5 4
see: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/06/01/23362
Hey...Microsoft never tortured and killed people because of their religion...yet.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
It sounds like Microsoft was just being whiny, but think about it like this: Microsoft designed their booth to obey the rules, and didn't have provision for attendees to play the Xboxes hands-on. No doubt they would have wanted to let people play, but they were told up front that they couldn't. Then, they turn up and discover that Sony have ignored the rule completely. In this situation, I think they were perfectly correct to complain.
That Microsoft had removed. Seems pretty crappy. Since it is marketed as a game console they said it has to be removed.
Get a free ipod.
(Note: I am just speculating here, but it looks plausible.)
Kids: Many of the visitors at CeBit are parents with kids, and kids need some amusement. If these parents want to have a little time for themselves (and they do, believe me, just because you are a dad or mom, that doesn't completely kill the nerd in you) what better than let them play on a gameconsole or some such gadget.
Even if it's not a console, kids need a little interaction, forcing them to a "watch only, no touching" policy frustrates the heck out of them, and as a consequence, their parents.
So, the non-reinforcement of this rule might just have been a little expression of social skills, like what you have in many big companies. You don't always enforce a rule, except if you want to come off like a total jackass and be treated like one by your colleagues.
Sigged!
Sony has plenty of dirty tricks up their collective sleeve, as well.
For example, at this same show (CeBit), they were running a large screen demo of one of their Clie handhelds, showing how it could play fullscreen video, etc. They even had a little camera set up and pointed at a real Clie, giving the indication that what was on the big screen was being taken directly from the screen on the handheld.
Turns out, the big screen image didn't have anything to do with a real Clie screen. It was all faked.
Jenova_Six
The reason they left was so that MS'd look bad. And that's what happened. Slashdot, obviously biased against MS, posts an article saying 'MS kicks Sony out of CeBit', even though that isn't even close to what happened.
Complain about MS's business practices all you want, Sony certainly could have stood a little taller in this case.
Id really like to know what brought this to MS's attention. It's puzzling that MS would have one of it's own doors closed (i.e. letting people play XBOX's...) in order to stop Sony. I haven't ruled out that MS was just being a bastard, but you got to wonder what precipitated the complaint.
"Derp de derp."
According to the BBC: 'A spokeswoman for CeBIT told BBC News Online: "We received complaints from many, many exhibitors about Sony, including from Microsoft."' I haven't seen this mentioned in any of the other articles. I guess it makes it a more interesting story if Microsoft was the main instigator.
n ew _media/newsid_1879000/1879078.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/
David
Sony: Tell you what. We'll Rochambeau you for it.
Nah, they probably would have offered to settle with the ancient Japanese contest Jan-Ken-Pon...
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
Would would want guys going to Sony's booth and beating up people in a game that's based on you? I don't think so.
A few years back, while bleem! was still a company making a Playstation(tm) emulator, Sony attempted to get bleem! thrown out of the E3 exhibition (held in California). This was contrary to a court order that bleem! acquired stating that they were allowed to present.
Unfortunately, my old, senile, brain can not remember the details of this incident (and I would prefer not to have large companies coming after me), but perhaps one of the younger people still in the emulation scene can recall the details.
They don't have to kill us Linux enthusiasts, we already have cancer.
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
Isn't it a "no-brainer" that Microsoft would be a part of the group that complained?
:)
I mean... it's kinda hard for Microsoft to demo games for the XBox when they still haven't put the finishing Photoshop lens-flares on their new game's slideshow?!
Forget about this already? Here's a refresher. And here are a few others.
no they will release it as VS .NET 2005 and you will get to pay for it again, unless you pay via subscription
How do you know? :)
deus does not exist but if he does
At the Society of Automotive Engineers show here ni detroit a few weeks ago, in the Digital CAR expo, there was at the front entrance a couch with a kik azz flat panel screen and an XBOX for your relaxing enjoyment. ;)
Its not that hard to measure.
Assume graphics are equal (I don't believe they are, but for the sake of argument)
Xbox: Supports HDTV resolutions
GC: Doesn't
PS2: Doesn't
Xbox: Supports Realtime DD 5.1
GC: Doesn't
PS2: Doesn't (PS2 has DD5.1 in cutscenes, but not in-game)
Xbox: Onboard ethernet
GC: add-on coming
PS2: add-on coming
Xbox: Has a HD (allows such nice things as not needing a memory card and allowing custom soundtracks to some games)
GC: none
PS2: add-on coming
Xbox: 64 MB memory
GC: 43 MB
PS2: 32 MB
Clearly the Xbox has superior hardware.
MS does make games for the Xbox. Sony makes games for the PS2. If you like any of the games they make this does have bearing.
Halo the only good game???
Try these before you make statements like that... you're bound to like at least a couple of them:
Project Gotham Racing
Rallisport Challenge
GUNVALKYRIE
Tony Hawk 3
Jet Set Radio Future
Wreckless: The Yakuza Missions
--
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.
If you don't like the rule, complain about the existence of the rule, not its enforcement. Rules are supposed to be enforced. Sometimes they are not, and in that case you can complain about a lack of enforcement of the rules, but rules are supposed to be enforced, so if you don't like the result of a rule, complain about the rule, not its enforcement.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
anybody?
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
This entire post is ridiculous. If the situations were reversed between Sony and MS, the article would be decrying Microsoft's unfair practices of distracting people and applauding Sony. Either way, it's not news.
FWIW, the Microsoft (softimage) booth at SIGGRAPH had their power cut once because they violated sound level restrictions. Probably because a competitor complained...
I hear that word a lot lately, bias.
/.ers have opinions of Microsoft based on years of experience, and simple knowledge of recent court cases.
Well, Microsoft is a monopoly, convicted of market manipulation, product tying, yadda yadda.
As with most "bias",
Water is wet, Fox News is far right-wing, trees are made of wood, and Microsoft is a predatory monopolist. To believe so, and to regard Microsoft-related stories with a grain of anti-MS feeling, is only sanity.
To give MS the benefit of the doubt is situations such as this is about as likely as keeping an open mind about the softness of a concrete wall as you crash your car into it. You know concrete walls, and they are rarely soft as a sponge.
Not bias, which to my mind is baseless slant, but just common sense.
MS Didn't care about the GC because no one else did either. :) I have XBox and GC and rarely play the GC as there have been so few new games for it.
I do not think everybody should bitch at MS about this. If there wasn't a rule against what Sony was doing MS complaining wouldn't have had any impact.
If there was a rule and Sony decided to ignore it then they have to expect that they might pay the price for ignoring the rule.
We are the cancer, baby!
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Zing!
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
It was an attempt at humour.
But yes, you're right. In my experience, most users are comfortable with the Windows GUI. They have no particular interest in Microsoft®Windows(TM), computing, or software in general. To them, Linux is a crappy old refurb box that sits under their desktop. They just want to do their work, listen to some tunes, and not have their applications tank.
Users don't really comment much on their Linux box, except to ask how to resize their desktopresolution or use a theme. They don't remember the last time it was rebooted. But they can certainly remember the last time they rebooted Microsoft®Windows(TM).
</offtopic>
Stories like this just really frost my cookie.
I think I'll create a software company called MicroCrap. Then let Microsoft sue saying: "That name sounds like us!"
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
hardware, software, fuck it. how about these:
GC: has fun games
PS2: has fun games
Xbox: does not have fun games
Xbox is all shoot-em-up and boring sports games. PS2 and Gamecube both feature bunches of fun games which are cool to look at and smooth to play.
if that's the case then why care what's under the hood? it's not like the console programmers are pulling their hair out trying to overcome the system's limitations.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
CeBit has a standing rule that there are to be no game demonstrations that can be played by conference attenders. Sony broke that rule.
From what I have read, it seems that the justification for CeBit's rule is quite sensible ... people flock to the games, and ignore other booths, block passage ways, and more or less behave far more absurdly than if they were looking at, say, trackballs. Had Sony (or anyone for that matter) had objections to this rule, they could have simply not had a booth. By participating in this conference, they choose to adhere to a certain set of rules.
Now, as to the big scandal of Microsoft blowing the whistle. There is a lot of talk about how it Microsoft was an evil tattletale, because they did not report the rule violation (which has occrued for the last three years) until they were making a competitive product. Well, duh.
To give a horribly flawed analogy ... lets say I am a highschool athlete (I am not/was not). For our example, lets pretend I play football. Now, say one day in class, I overhear some baseball player talking about how he is using some bat that has a cork center, which is against the rules because it gives him an unfair advantage. As a football player, I could care less. Now, suppose 2 years down the line, I decide to tryout for baseball. Again, I overhear said baseball player talking about his "wonderbat". Now, if I now suddenly decided to report the violation, does this make me a bully? Hardly.
Wow ... that was a horrible analogy. Sorry.
No wonder I keep reading about low attendence at this year's CeBIT. That's why I fly out to Computex in Taiwan every year - no shortage of babes there!
...Unless, of course, they realized that this situation would be to their advantage - It might cover, say, a tendancy for the Xbox to break down, or maybe some complaints about their controllers? I mean, it's kind of hard to rig things when you give the people the controllers, isen't it? - And, of course, I'm sure that MS wasen't demoing buggy prerelease games, or anything else to try and make it look like the PS2 isen't stomping all over the Xbox in the 'Total games released' catagory, and they COULD have just handed the controllers over to the audience like Sony was doing... But it was against show policy! Sure! Yeah.
Anyone had the chance to portscan one of these XBox things yet ?
Want to know what socket ports it listens to, and what UDP's it accepts.
How long till an XVirus is developed that actively seeks and destroys these abominations ? (As if the net was not flooded with enough garbage - along comes this GatesBox to pump more rubbish over the line).
How sad will MS look when widespread reports of XBox viruses start appearing in newspapers, permanently trashing the hard disk on these machines (or at least filling them up so they cannot be written to by applications).
Will MS offer some sort of scheme to reload Windows on them ?
How much will this inevitable embarrassment cost MS ?
How many game developers will be turned away from supporting the XBox.
The argument that someone else raised, that such a rule could exist because "people might be hanging around Sony's booth only to play games, and not go look at the other exhibitors", simply doesn't hold - for the following reasons.
CeBIT is the largest such exhibition in the world, there are more than 8000 exhibitors, and more than 150.000 visitors each day. You don't just "browse" the exhibition, you plan your visits from home.
The ticket is around $120 - you don't waste a day there just for playing a $40 game.
Sony let people play with their software, and so what ? They let me play with Linux on their PS/2 as well. And being an exhibitor there, I've let people play with our software in our booth as well. Just like Sun let me play with their software, IBM with theirs, etc. etc. etc.
Rather than leave, they could have found someone there wanting to get paid a little to play the games...
Perhaps a better statement was made by packing up the consoles though it would have been fun to keep them there with "employees" playing them.
Blogging because I can...
Consider the historical fact that anyone who has been stupid enough to 'partner' with Microsoft on some project, ends up being eaten as either part of the main course, or as a dessert dish.
I knew that Sega was doomed when they signed up to run CE on the dreamcast - MS just used them up for development ideas, and then surpise - MS comes out with it's own console.
What 3rd party software developer would be stupid enough to think that by developing titles for the XBox things will be any different.
The current batch of XBox developers are just being used as cheap cannon fodder by General Gates to find out where the minefields are, and to probe the enemy line for weaknesses.
Many XBox developers are going to go under as part of the course, and MS will not bat an eyelid. Those early casualties will be the lucky ones.
Woe unto them who succeed in this market ! For the day will surely cometh where Microsoft decides that there is money to be made in this market.
You will know when this will be happening for the signs shall surely be there .. those that have wisdom will know the signs.
These things shall surely come to pass.
If it is any consolation, Developers who write good code for PS2 / GCN deserve and receive respect. Particularly PS2 developers who have come to terms with parallized code and VU1 asm.
Anyone get the feeling that MS is trying to attract a bunch of $10 per hour VB/Access 'gurus' to the XBox ? Their job (in the above scenario) must surely be to locate the enemy machine gun positions by drawing their fire, and to provide human scaling ramps for the first layers of wire.
Sig:
...you can just bash MS bashing.
1 million? HAH! PSX2 has already sold over 20 million and is still going strong. 1 million in sales is a drop in the bucket compared to what Sony generates. Also Sony is NOT taking a loss on their consoles, they are profiting around $120 per console, plus their profit from games licensing etc... While Microsoft IS losing money on each console and hoping to make it up in games and suck up marketshare. Sony has already made their money back plus a big chunk of profit and will probably drop the PSX2 price down at christmas to undercut all of the competitors. I gaurantee that MSFT won't make another generation of consoles after Sony beats the shit out of them in the market this year and next.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
Lots of folks here rightfully point out that Sony broke the rules and that Microsoft is not wrong to ask that they be applied fairly to all. But, why does MS have to stick their foot in it even when they are right by denying they were the ones that complained? Is honesty really that hard for them?
Pengows... no that sounds too much like something copyrighted. Tekken 5, the OS wars! See Bill and Linus slug it out in 3-D. Super-pane-of-glass-in-wooden-frame breakout! SSXP... tricky! Haunted Bill? Spyware Hunter! ThinkGeek Gear Solid 2: Sons of Puberty Grand Theft Licensing Fees III and a personal fave: X-Box emulator kit (it's just a big ol' box with a space heater and a ceiling fan stuck in it, you slide the PS2 into the memory card slot. The controllers are deep-fried baseball mitts with lead bars in them.) one more: Final Fantasy XP - Forced upgrade! Hey, anyone here gonna buy the PS2 Linux kit?
Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
"... and, honest, our engineers are working around the clock to try and figure out why suddenly Windows XP can't play any movies or music on Columbia labels."
"MS does make games for the Xbox. Sony makes games for the PS2. If you like any of the games they make this does have bearing." -- Technically I said games I'd buy....
I agree that the XBOX sounds better at first, but not all the options are gettin weighed.
HDTV: GameCube supports progressive scan, but it cannot hit the higher resolutions that XBOX can. *But* if you take the XBOX to a higher resolution, it means a higher fill rate is needed. The performance cost may be on the substantial side. Ultimately the games matter, the resolution doesn't.
DD 5.1: I'm pretty sure the GC and PS2 support DD 5.1 or somethig like it. Unfortunately I'm not really familiar with it so I'm not going to push too hard on this. I do know that all 3 systems have good audio support.
XBOX HD: I'm not sure if this is a blessing or a curse. Although I agree it's great you don't need a memorycard out of the box, you are still paying $100 extra for this system. The problem is that the hard-drive is something extra to go wrong with the XBOX at this point. I agree, though, that this feature could make the XBOX the machine to own down the road, but today it's a glorified memory card.
Ethernet: I think you bring up a good point here. In some respects, I wish the GC did have a built in ethernet port. Here's the thing though, if a game comes out for the GC where ethernet is a must have, they'll almost certainly package it with the game like they did the rumble pack and memory exansion. This is no guarantee, but if Nintendo wants to do it, they will. They've proven that. Right now, support for the XBOX ethernet isn't that broad yet.
RAM: This may be a bit of a touchy issue. RAM doesn't automatically make a game better, but it makes the programmer's lives easier. As I said before, the graphics of the system are more heavily weighed by the artists than the hardware. It's my understanding that GC's RAM is a lot faster, so the difference may not be as big as it seems. I'm not a developer so I really cannot offer much insight there.
In short, $100 buys you more machine with the XBOX, I agree with you there. But the difference isn't that dramatic. At this point, it's the games that will determine the winner. XBOX has certainly looked more interesting lately than it has at launch. Maybe in a year I'll buy one. That depends on it having games I want to play, though. So far, the GC wins with me right now.
"Derp de derp."
Let's get all the good games on one console like the good old 8bit NES days.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/new _media/newsid_1879000/1879078.stm
Microsoft's Xbox launched across Europe last week where it will compete with the hugely popular PlayStation 2 console from Sony.
The spokeswoman added: "Both companies were showing their machines but Microsoft followed the rules and did not have any games to play on it, while Sony did. CeBIT is not for playing games."
She said CeBIT asked Sony to switch the games off but instead the company removed all of its consoles from the fair.
But boy, it sure is fun to bash M$...
If so, I voted. It's tied at one to one.
Well, I'll ignore the somewhat piss-poor judging that took place (I'm not going to surmise which country came out ahead, but it seems like everyone left SLC a little bitter.)
However, I'm sure back in the early days, it was somewhat fair.
I think it can be considered as a model for fair competition, a bad year notwithstanding. As such, I defend my use of said metaphor. You grow up.
How is a developer or even a programmer supposed to figure out if a console is worth a shit without aactualy playtesting it?
Nobody would think of not letting a company with a new method of controling a computer not let that company let the attendets try out that product, after all, usability feel and function are essential to ANY product.
It is not until I actualy get my HANDS around a controler that I begin to instantly visualize what I will be able to do with that controler, the full posabilities of it open up to me only because I am able to feel it work within my hands.
Seeing how responsive the character up on the screen can be to my movements is a BIG plus. Typicaly a hardware company will have the BEST examples of a product running on their hardware (or else why bother with a demonstration unit at all?) and it gives an excellent overall 'feel' for what the system as a whole is capable of.
Hell almost ANY controler can look easy to use and smooth and precise in the hands of the proper player, but the fact is that what the controler REALLY feels like to the player is something that can only be experanced first hand.
Even something as seemingly simple as a mousewheel can have vastly different feels to it from person to person. I loved the resistence of the old Intelimice, but many people could not stand it. Heck I am sure that a few even thought it too light handed. Either way you go, only PERSONAL experance can tell!
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Oh i forgot, you were forced to buy it...no?!?!...then SHUT THE FUCK UP COMMIE!!
Well, considering that most big-name PC 'brands' (Compaq, HP, Dell) have been forced to ship their products with ONLY Micro$hyt OS's.. then yeah, i'd say alot of people were forced into buying it...
as for your comments on linux, i don't know how you figure it doesn't work, cuz in my experience, once you have your system all setup & configured, you never have to do shit (apart from upgrade the kernel).
how fuckin' sad are you?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough*lamer
5468652047616D65
A summary:
Microssoft:
Employees: (last reported count): 47,600
For the six months ended 12/01, revenues rose 13% to $13.87 billion.
Sony:
Employees: (last reported count): 181,800
For the nine months ended 12/31/01, revenues rose 6% to Y5.712T (Yes, 5.712 trillion yen, or about $44.2 billion US)
So yes, let's see the 'Unending Resource' of Microsoft bring this 'little' company down to size.
They're out gunned and outmatched in this battle, in a time in which the continued existance of Microsoft as we know it is still being debated by the courts of this country, developing an enemy who's concept of 'deep pockets' is a multiple of 10 higher than your own.. is suicide.
-GiH
It is against CeBit rules to provide games. Microsoft was not the only exhibitor to complain about Sony. As far as I know, the trade show organizers asked Sony to switch off the games, but Sony decided to take away the PS2's alltogether. Presumably, Sony was pissed that they were forced to stop letting people play. To my knowledge, no-one asked Sony to remove the playstations.
You do have to admit that this is pretty good PR for Sony and pretty bad PR for Microsoft.
I've got to say that this made up my mind. I know it's silly but it's just the straw that broke the camels back. I just bought my PS2 a few hours ago.
I've just got to wonder how long MS can keep shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot and get away with it. I keep thinking, "Oh shit! they've really done it now" but everyone just keeps saying, "Oh, that wacky Microsoft, what are ya gonna do?". Nutz to that.
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/SonyInfo/IR/Financial/AR/ 2001/f_note-23.html
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
This year was my second year. Granted last years stand bunnies were better but this was not bad. They even have a website for the babes (http://www.messebabes.de/).
And of course free beer everynight...just check out the freenet.de parties. And hey, even I got laid last week.
The only thing wrong? German men with their moustaches. creepy. I belive they call them 'porno balkins'
/b
[Please type your sig here.]
Maybe, MS was trying to do what Sony was doing by letting people try to play the X-Box at the show.. but didnt say they could offically play it.. And when they started to noitce that no one was coming to play the console they decided to just stop everyone from playing it, so that they dont look bad....... It wouldnt be the first time this has happend.
"Eat right, Exercise daily, Die anyways."
http://www.10angrygamers.com Where purple monkeys attack!!
Please don't allow me to assist in the well-documented transition of Slashdot from a technical site to a political forum, but I can't resist in this situation.
Sony broke the rules. Sony let gamers play the games on the systems they sell during a trade show. Sony gets kicked out of the game. Microsoft broke the rules. Microsoft was found guilty of illegal bundling, hiding api's, and setting monopolistic terms to computer vendors in 94, 99, and 2001. Microsoft gets kicked out of the game.
Sounds fair.
Yes, Sony is a huge corporation that has attempted to leverage its presence (though not dominance) in consumer electronics to sell standards like the memory stick and DVD's. Yes, Sony is known to try and muscle competitors. However, something is inherintly wrong when a competitor can have you kicked out of a trade show because you let people have fun with your toys. I would think the director of the convention would have the power to make an exception on the grounds that the rule is unnecessary in this situation, and give Sony the year to plan a show without user interaction. Furthermore, it is in the show organizer's best financial interest if the customers participating in the show have a good time, and the only thing at a convention more enjoyable than free gaming is free gaming schwag.
The only group who benefits from this action is Microsoft (who, of course, lied about it afterwards to introduce doubt). The only reason Microsoft would act in this way is if they didn't want to compete. Is this sounding familiar?
Up until this point the X-box was starting to sound tempting so long as they could correct durability issues. With this action, Microsoft has reaffirmed once again why it is our moral imperitive to not give money to assholes... they just become more powerful assholes across more markets.
The ______ Agenda
I don't get it. I played with a LOT of toys at CeBIT. The place is full of them.
Hmmm it looks like most of the people posting here have never seen a generation of consoles being released and the fierce competition that goes on between them. This sort of stuff used to always happen, with Sony, Sega and Nintendo. It's called competition people, and it's healthy. Compainies are allowed to do it, and yet just because it is Microsoft, you bash them. Of course Microsoft is going to be compeditive - that's how they sell consoles. Sega, Nintendo and Sony have all done it in the past when going head to head, and yet after Microsoft does it, again more bashing. MICROSOFT WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO COMPLAINED - according to the BBC report many complained, which is conviniently left out of the Slashdot Article, typical from a bunch of losers who try to make whatever they're using better by bashing other forms.
Sony broke the rules
Many stalls complained (INCLUDING MICROSOFT)
Sony was forced to take down the consoles because they were BREAKING THE RULES, and instead of maintaining a normal stall, they went off in a fit of anger.
And yet all the Slashdot clowns go on about how Microsoft did it and Microsoft were wrong and this is the only way for microsoft to get a "manopoly" - interesting word isnt it? It really gets thrown around especially with articles concerning Microsoft, ever since the trial. I bet half of the adolescent 14 year old losers only found out what that word meant after the trial and suddenly stopped believing that is was synonomous with the board game.
Sony broke the rules, got punished.
If you don't think this was right and believe that Sony was being victimised by Microsoft, then go and have a cry to your other MS-hating geeks at school who are too poor to actually pay for software for their old computer that they scored when their neighbours had a garbage pile out the front of their houses and stop whining because you chose the console that is losing and run by a gay company.
That is so lame.
Missing the point, Microsoft was caught out as liars.
"What makes this even more funny is that Microsoft officials denied that the company had complained to the Messe. but the show organizers confirmed that Richard Roy, vice president, corporate strategy, had complained."
...but Microsoft did this one by themselves. After seeing this on the news, and reading the Heise article, it mentzioned that Sony had displayed their Playstations in the same display style as in the previous 2 years. Thus Sony didn't feel as if they were doing wrong. Since Microsoft is new to the console market, they paid more attention to the fine print and got all prissy about their competition bending the rules.
Another thing mentioned is that Sony attempted to settle, but that Microsoft refused to budge. I guess Microsoft's famed paranoia is now working to their disadvantage? Either that, or the CeBIT team was using short-sighted tactics.
The point of all this is that the rules were in place because of the now-defunct CeBIT Home, which was supposed to be the venue for entertainment. It was to prevent overlap with a trade show that no longer exists.
X-Bucks is not half as good as PS2. ;-)
Because this was what the article was about. Stop bragging. Sony is a multi-corporation and also produces CD players or whatever, but that's "another company". :p
The rules are simple, Microsoft is a monopoply protected by the stongest military in the world. No foreign country will question anything any American monopoly says or does these days as long as we have a court appointed administration preparing for a nuclear attack and advertising a growing "hit list".
"Rules" suddenly being enforced after a couple of years of "Past Practice" (being accepted) is only a way to benefit certain individuals, in this case Microsoft. If these rules were going to be enforced this year, they should have made special note of it before the show, rather than last minute decisions.
Sony did the right thing, they took the high road, "past practice" of being accepted in other shows gives them the right to expect it to be accepted in this show.
Microsoft was worried about something else, not protecting the rules. Perhaps Microsoft was more worried about the exciting demos of Linux running on the PS2. Sony had linux running many demos to show the power of the PS2 with linux.
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
About a month and a half ago i read in the swedish magazine (Computer Sweden) about microsoft using similar tactics when handling a release party (it must have been about Windows XP or .NET) in the fashionable Berns Salonger in the central of Stockholm.
The funny part is that swedish IBM rented the more hip anexe club in the park in fron of Berns and put up a veritable Unix/IBM/Linux/Geek-party; huge signs and all.
The swedish mocrosoft representatives did not like this at all and called upon the owners of Berns to muscle IBM out of the place - forcing them to remove all flashing logos and stuff.
Too bad since the IMB party seem to have been the more fun - at least acording to the reporter.
/largo
Except the fact that it wasn't in Yale but in UK, that the rule wasn't in latin even though it was an ancient one.
Wouldn't be surprised it there are versions of this which refer to US universities. Most urban legands get a lot of "porting".
Not according to this article
_________________________________________________
Frankly, it's turning into today's pop music culture for geeks. What I'm seeing here is a bunch of sheep who have been told by their "geek" friends "MICROSOFT IS BAD, CONFORM TO THE NON-STANDARD, MICROSOFT IS BAD" It's stupid. Microsoft might have done some things (and maybe still are) that are nefarious. That doesn't mean they are a bad company. I ask you to name a single company who you KNOW hasn't commited any type of wrong doing whatsoever! You can't! It's not possible. Companies have their problems, microsoft has theirs. You hate microsoft, fine. At least give me a good reason for hating them. And please, the "MONOPOLY!!!!" Plea is getting old, try to find something new. P.S. I'm not a microsoft supporter, but I hate seeing people who really don't know what they're talking about scream out "MICROSOFT BAD" every chance they get. And Microsoft did nothing wrong here.. wanting to get a competitor out of the picture is just business, it's how things work. I'm sure any of you would do the same in this type of situation. Microsoft is (obviously) a good company with some very smart people in it (Or it wouldn't be as it is today) So before you start to yell about how bad microsoft is, picture your favorite little unix distro suddenly becoming the standard on every desktop PC.. and see how they would handle it.. (And the article on /. was hidious. "Microsoft is so evil, look, they got sony kicked out just so they could hog all the gaming glory to their X-Box, evil microsoft!)
The better product will come out on top, it's how things work.
(Waits for the flames to begin)
Dear Bill, :D
You cannot terminate slashdot by posting stupid messages like this by disguising yourself as an anonymous coward. It is one of the places fortunately your monopolistic empire cannot touch.
At least create yourself an account first.
Why don't you go and entertain yourself by totooing .net logo on your butt, rather than writing stupid messages?
Dear Bill, do you have a
Yes, but it doesn't mean that I will migrate to MS ShitBox. At least PS2 has a soul, like the Amiga had once. I won't sell my soul to evil empire.
Dear Bill, do you have a
... that at some point in time the Hannover Messe A.G. (or what's it called) wanted to split up the CeBIT into two parts, one being the usual CeBIT, oriented towards businesses etc, and the other being the so called 'CeBIT Home' held explicitly for consumers and the like.
For this split up, they implemented a set of rules limiting the usual CeBIT to make it less attractive to consumers. As far as I recall Creative Labs were even considering not to attend the last CeBIT at all due to this. (after all they are more into the consumer market than anything else...)
In short, one of these rules forbids it to allow people to test and 'play' with Joysticks, Consoles, Games.... at the exhibitors booths. Putting stuff on display is allowed but no touching by the visitors.
Note: The above is all AFAIK and IIRC and may not be (completely) correct.
Yeah, but the X-Box weighs 9 POUNDS!!! Nine %^&*%ing pounds!! That's as much as a human head!
BOTH of the competitors (Gamecube and PS2) offer far more enjoyment per pound.
Well, dear anonymous coward. I don't think that it lowers /., but makes it much more valuable! There is no censorship here, no big bill brother watching over you.
Different people has a right to express their ideas in different ways. What's wrong with it? The wrong thing is to ban them.
AND, if you are that politically correct, why are you on the same side with thief, liar, briber, monopolist company that feeds capitalist dancing monkeys?
Get a life.
Dear Bill, do you have a
You make assumptions. It was Linux that was being displayed on 27 playstation 2. They had it thrown out on the grounds that the playstation is sold as a gaming console, not that it was being used as one. They were showing programs like Abiword.
Feel dumb yet?
Get a free ipod.
What Microsoft doesn't understand is that they have made themselves some bad publicity in return for, what maybe a "tactical business move".
There will be a lot of people out there that will be asking themselves "Who does Micro$oft think they are?" Hey we all know the answer, they think they can come in any market and take control of it. It's not suprising that they decided to dive right into the gaming industry because there is a lot of money to be made. None of the less, I hope Sony is smart about it and makes some good decisions to push Micro$oft out of the gaming industry.
Exactly. How dare they not follow the rules! This isn't about game consoles and allowing the customers to enjoy the product. It is about us telling them if they are allowed to enjoy it. And Sony, with all their hundreds of working games. Bah. MS just needs one game, and everyone will love it. Why go to all that trouble to give the customer a choice? Sony just doesn't make any sense, as a business. I bet their little PlayStation will fail miserably. And speaking of failures, I bet that Nintendo company will be out of the game business soon too. And this internet thing is just a fad. DAMMIT! Listen to us, we know what you want! Why won't anyone listen to us anymore??? Do you know who we are?! We're MICROSOFT !!!!
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
and saw the xbox running at microsoft, but non-interactive, hidden behind glass - BUT, at nvidia was at least one xbox running some interactive demos. somebody tried to start some game, and i saw the first crashing xbox in my life (30 seconds after seeing the first running xbox in my life)
there are *lots* of game consoles which were not removed, xboxes, ps2s, pcs (running counterstrike for example) so this isn't fair imho...
maybe they had to remove the ps2s because they had too many of them on a single stand...
It turns out that other people than Microsoft also complained.
I would like to point out that CeBit is NOT a game show. I think you are taking this story a bit too ANTI-Microsoft'ish.
Sometimes I wonder how independent Slashdot is.
Buddy, you seriously should have your head checked. Do you honestly not realize that Microsoft (yet again) took anti-competitive action?
The only reason we Americans tend to "destroy our own successes" is that we let companies like Microsoft provide poor quality products and services at ridiculously high costs. We allow these companies to monopolize the market, therefore locking out any competition, and in doing that, we allow them to ristrict innovation.
Complaining that other countries are going to come in and take over is serious crap. Your thinking on too small a scale. Don't you think that other countries in the world will be affected by Microsoft's actions? Do you not care?
If you are a Linux kernel user, then your using software developed by an external country, and distributed for free. It's not only free, the idea of open source software (in my opinion) is infinitely better for innovation than proprietary software development, unless all you care about is making money. Does this mean that Linux is a threat to America? You've got to be kidding.
I agree with you that if Microsoft goes down for what ever reason, we'll just have another player step in. But I would cheer happily if the company that steps in is a company that concentrates on the quality of it's developments, rather than how much someone would pay if they implemented N number of pretty "features". Most of the features that Microsoft has innovated in their lifecycle has been around for ages on other operating systems and software platforms (and if you think I'm joking, you need to do some research).
Microsoft clearly stopped Sony from displaying their product because they recognize them as competition. The fact that it was Sony doesn't matter. If it was any other console manufacturer, founded inside or outside of the united states, Microsoft would do the same thing if that company posed such a threat. It's dealings with Netscape and Sun Microsystems have already proved this.
It's sad that I have to keep reminding myself that there are people like you still around. It disgusts me to see such blatant ignorance and disregard for the development of humanity in general. Your capitalist way of thinking will have us all living a typical Blade Runner future, rather than a Star Trek future.
"You do not associate with us because we are different. We do not associate with you because you are stupid."
Ironic that you're posting anonymously...
You should log in before posting, Bill.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
***censored***
"And everyone will tell them "Microsoft made them leave". It won't necessarily be 100% accurate, but thats the rumor that's going to go around for the rest of the show. And for the remainder of that show, the mention of Microsoft will leave a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people. And a lot of people will leave and go on with their professional lives. They may not think any higher of sony. But they will think less of Microsoft."
Not necessarily. They could get scared and instead think: "Let not get on the wrong side of microsoft. They could create trouble for us." And in the long(er) run people will forget about the bad taste.
A day late, but...
"-- Technically I said games I'd buy...."
Thats why I said "If you like any of the games they make this does have bearing."
HDTV: Yes ultimately the games are what matters. But a good game that looks better usually wins. Well see in a month or so how good HD games look. Also consider that the Xbox has a significantly higher number (all, I think) of 480p games. GC has a few and PS2 none. Granted you need a tv capable of it, but its a huge picture quality improvement.
DD5.1: Fact. Only Xbox has real time in-game DD5.1 EA is hacking in DTS support for a couple of its PS2 games but the console itself does not support it. The GC has a game that supports DPL2, any of the consoles can support DPL2 if the game is encoded in that format. The Xbox is heads and shoulders above the other two consoles when it comes to audio.
HD: Its mostly a blessing. If you like memory cards you can still buy them. Its only $100 more than a GC (add $$ for how many mem cards you need), same price as a PS2 (without HD, without ethernet). Custom soundtracks makes it more than a glorified memory card. But, even as a glorified memory card, you have no idea how nice it is to not worry about how many blocks you have free. Its just one of those things you can't truly appreciate until you have it.
Ethernet: Its about install base. EVERY XBox has ethernet. Unless they bundle the adapter with the game (doubtful considering the cost) there is a much smaller base for developers to make games for.
Ram: I brought this up because I've seen a developer (3DRealms) talk about how they no problems porting Max Payne to the Xbox, but had problems porting to the PS2 because of memory (had to significantly lower the texture quality) and no plans to port to the GC because it was pretty much impossible to port it and still have it look good.
The games always have and always will determine the winner. As for dramatic difference, well it depends on if you're hooking your console up to a 13" tv or a 65" home theater. The 13" will be about the same but on the 65" its a very dramatic difference.
Right now the Xbox wins for me on all counts. Of course, as soon as Mario, Zelda and company show up I expect to have a GC to keep it company.
All very good points. :)
Im curious about Max Payne for the GC, though. The hardware is far better on GC (and lots more RAM )than the PS2. I don't understand how they could port to PS2 and not the GC... Do you have a source of info on that? *Puzzled*
Considering the texture compression that GC has, plus the added RAM, what about the GC made it a problem?
On the PS2, they have to halve the verticle resolution just to have workable RAM to do stuff with...
"Derp de derp."
As the german article pointed out. There used to be two different shows, a professional and a personal, but they are merging - next year the outdated 'rules' will be changed so that sony can put up their consoles.
(at least as i read the article)
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
"Sony präsentiert sich jetzt in der Opferrolle und stellt uns als die Bösen hin. Aber die Nomenklatur der CeBIT ist eindeutig", konterte Microsoft-Sprecher Frank Mihm.
... and some Microsoft person complained, that Sony is now making Microsoft look bad with this move and claims that it's just the (CeBit) rules. He goes on to say that 27 PS/2 where a little much for just demonstrating the Hardware, and stated that MS would've liked a bigger stand for their Xbox too.
Only it was Microsoft who asked for enforcing the rules after noone cared for three years. It's very obvious, that Microsoft wants to run the consoles-Show alone with their Xbox. Also Microsoft was nice enough to give some Xboxes to others running a stand on CeBit, where people can play. So Microsoft is bending the rules as well.
Also what did they expect? Did they think Sony would quietly pack and put up some advertisement for the Xbox instead? They just showed Microsoft for the spoilsports and underhanded schemers they are, and if that means bad publicity for Microsoft that's well deserved.
Aparently the organizers of CeBit aren't too happy with all this and think about changing the Rules. Microsoft must really have put some heavy pressure behind their move, or the CeBit organizers would just have declared the rule obsolete.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Project Gotham Racing : Boring
;)
Rallisport Challenge : Dull
Tony Hawk 3 : Tired
Jet Set Radio Future : Not as good as JSR
Wreckless : Pretty, awfull
DOA3 : Pretty, shallow
and the only one I haven't played (but then neither have you
GUNVALKYRIE : Looks good, but not actually out yet
Looks like my memory failed me a little bit. The post in question wasn't quite as cut and dried as I made it. Here it is:
http://www.shacknews.com/funk.y?id=2486169
By: GeorgeB3DR [Dec 6th 2001, 03:53:20 pm Duke 4 & Bots]
#20, >>A while back it was anounced that DNF would be arriving on the gamecube at some point. Is this still the case? And will it be going to all of the consoles? I know it might be to early to tell, but i was curious what your plans were for the consoles.
We really don't know what consoles DNF would go to, but you can be assured that we'll try all of them. I really think memory is going to be an issue. Max Payne barely, and I mean barely, squeaked into a PS2 and Duke is more memory intensive than Max is.
In the end, we'll do what we can on the ports. And the port teams are amazing with what they can manage to do.
Here's a follow up answer in the thread. This is the one I made my statement because of:
GeorgeB3DR [@Dec 6th 2001, 04:55:35 pm]
#133, I believe the PS2 has 32 megs, and the GameCube has less, at 24 megs.
I don't know if he's just plain wrong or talking about usable memory?
You're right. Believing what the media says, no matter how little the source knows, oversimplifying, and not thinking about it all makes it a lot easier to believe that MS was just being evil.
By the way, you contradicted yourself. If that's such a great place to market the PS2, then just taking them away sounds foolish. Even a PS2 attract mode is better than no machine at all. "Well, the XBOX is here, where's Sony's PS2? I dunno, guess Sony doesn't think that highly of it." Sony was just trying to make MS look bad. What a bunch of babies.
"Derp de derp."
Hmm that's odd. Nintendo's site says that the GC has 40 megs of 'System ram'. I think the PS2 is fairly close to that, but their VRAM was only 4 megs so that really crippled the machine. On top of that, the GC has S3C Texture Compression that provides 6:1 compression, all in hardware. The PS2 lacks texture compression.
:)
I have no doubt they canned Max Payne on the GCN, but it's startling to hear that it was a system limitation the PS2 didn't have. Maybe he was ill-informed? I dunno. Heh.
Interesting stuff, though. You educated me, thank you.
"Derp de derp."
Here's something interesting:
"24 MB MoSys 1T-SRAM, Approximately 10ns Sustainable Latency
A-Memory
16MB (81MHz DRAM)"
From Nintendo's site... I wonder how that compares to PS2's RAM. Isn't it like 32 main and 4 vram or something like that?
"Derp de derp."
They're both good consoles, they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
/. complaints against MS really don't make the faintest bit of difference. You're preaching to the choir here guys : )
But speed and graphics you've got this totally wrong. The xbox graphics have vastly higher poly counts, vastly better texturing.
The raw power of the machine is substantially higher. Not as much as pure Mhz comparison would suggest, but still higher.
The overall architecture is vastly better, in pretty much every way.
The machine is several years newer. Evolution is inevitable.
Love or hate microsoft (I'm personally fairly unbiased either way) two things I think are fairly inevitable: Xbox is a very good console, and running to show organizers to tell is very immature.
Another point that should be mentioned is that the constant
Hmm, so the plot thickens. I was starting to think George was smoking something with that 24 MB ram comment.
l ?i=1561&p=1
l ?i=1566&p=1
:)
You're right about the PS2. 32 main and 4 embedded.
Ok, I did some looking.
The 24 MB is video memory (plus another 3 MB embedded)
The 16 MB is audio memory, but apparently developers can use some of this memory for general data storage.
Now that I understand the memory in the GC a little better I can see how a game would be a bit dificult to fit on the GC, especially a port.
If you haven't already you should check out these AnandTech articles:
Xbox in-depth with a PS2 compairison
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.htm
GameCube in-deptch with a Xbox and PS2 compairison
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.htm
Thanks for the fun conversation. Its amazing what you can still learn even when you think you know a lot about a subject
Any Market Microsoft enters isn't "level" anymore, but then the consoles business never was. I think neither Sony nor Microsoft will be awarded the fairness price for this stunt, but noone expected that anyway. It's really not as if Microsoft had never broken a rule, so MS claiming that the competition plays unfair is really pathetic. Also Sony played quite heavily on the metagame, generating quite some publicity. They even managed to get CeBit organisation to rethink the rules, and some articles flying about the net mentioning their product and making MS look bad. Why should they play by Microsofts rules? Anyone who did that in the past lost.
I really don't know if the Xbox is a better product, it definitely has some nice tech built in. But the value of a console is mainly determined by the games available for the thing, and in that department Microsoft draws the short straw, simply because the Xbox doesn't exist that long. OTOH Microsoft is definitely throwing their weight behind it to get some nice games to market. If i were into games i wouldn't buy an Xbox now, but when the "must have" game of my personal preference comes out for it. Especially if i already have a console at home. Apparently you like the Xbox, but that doesn't mean that because of that all Microsoft employees turned into saints, or that Microsoft management has seen the light and now does fair business.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
"Now that I understand the memory in the GC a little better I can see how a game would be a bit dificult to fit on the GC, especially a port"
:) "
:)
Don't forget that the GC has the 6:1 texture compression... sounds to me like they could have easily done it if they got it on PS2, but I will definiitely check out those links and absorb some more info.
"Thanks for the fun conversation. Its amazing what you can still learn even when you think you know a lot about a subject
I feel the same way. Cheers friend.
"Derp de derp."
I agree with your comment about 1/3 royalties, I would like to see all the great games for PS2 realeased for Xbox, too and vise-versa. Project Gotham Racing is a great game, rivaling Grand Turismo for PS2. Personally the thing that sold me on the Xbox was the built-in NIC and the HDD. I'm pleased with it, although I did strongly consider getting a PS2 in addition to the Xbox.
"Da ist ein Technölüst in mein Unterpanten!"
I actually have played GUNVALKYRIE, and it is quite good. Fast and furious desctruction. Although I find most of the games I listed to be quite good.
Porject Gotham Racing: Deep, challenging, entertaining
Rallisport Challenge: Fun (with my new Gamester controller/wheel thingie)
Tony Hawk 3 - tired? ok, I agree, but still a great game if you haven't played the first 2 to death.
JSRF: Not as good as JSR? Ok, I agree there too, but it's still a damn good game.
Wreckless: I liked it. But then again, I like games where I can just sit down and smash shit for 15 minutes and then shut it off.
DOA3: sucks ass. but I didn't list it.
as long as I'm typing...
Transworld surf: Entertaining for a couple of hours, but gets old fast.
NHL 2002: Rocks.
NBA 2002: Eats shit.
WWF Raw: create a wrestle is good... but game is too slow for me.
Why am I posting to a topic that is days old? Like anyone is going to read this shit.
--
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.
Same reason I am, to try and get the last word in a pointless non-argument.
Game preferences are like, personal opinions, so hey. Personally I'm sick to the back teeth of car games. Finished working on one last year, just had another one canned, and really don't want to see another one for a while. Besides, between GT3 and GTA3, what's left to do?
Tony Hawk is on everything, and as such, isn't a deciding factor one way or another.
All sports games suck. Even the really really good ones from EA that are also on every platform.
Meanwhile, wrestling games suck even harder than sports games.
So how are the controls for Gunvalkryie then?
ok wait...
/. users aren't more open-minded.
so what you're saying is that a console that has been out for over a year and a half has sold more units than the xbox has in a month since its release? Wow, gee, I wonder why?
Oh, and Sony is making $120 per console profit alone while MS is losing money.. Hmm, doesn't that mean that Sony is overcharging in comparison to MS? I mean, if it costs MS more to make the unit than to sell it and Sony charges more than it costs to make it, isn't MS giving a better deal? Heck, you get more hardware than your dollar is worth.
Realistically, I doubt the xbox will go away any time soon, based on the fact that MS has so much money it can just throw at the project until it works. They'll probably do the same with xbox, so it will probably be around for a while.
I'm not against the PS2, or any game system for that matter. Actually, any aditions the game market only increases competition which in the end is always better for the consumer as companies develope better systems for cheaper with higher quality games to attract the consumer dollar. GC, PS2, and XBOX are actually all good for each other because it will move the market along quite well.
I fail to see why people feel the need to make silly, unbased attacks on the xbox just because it was created by MS. I take all my software and hardware by MS and ANY other company with a grain of salt and on a case by case basis. MS sucks in OS's, and their software needs some opening up I think, but their hardware is generally good quality. The Xbox is a fast, stable system that stays true to the console genre and it's quite sad that I find most
Well, feel free to flame me, but I felt someone should say something to this regard.
-Simplicity is the essence of elegance.