Slashdot Mirror
U.S. E-Commerce Sites To Collect EU VAT
A concerned US-based e-commerce company with inter writes "While we have all been fighting the Internet sales tax battle here in the U.S., the European Union of 15 countries has recently required that all U.S. companies with web sales to EU citizens start collecting the value-added tax on July 1, 2003. The Washington Post has a good article about this. It seems Ebay, AOL, and others caved in on this without much complaint. Can U.S. Internet taxation be far behind if we have to start collecting and reporting 15 different VAT taxes? And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value."
I am glad to pay my tax, because I live in the EU, more specifically Sweden, and here the tax is used for reasonable stuff, unlike the US.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2968106.stm
if companies in the US, especially small etailers, don't bother?
Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
And of course it is going to cost more, just announce on the website: This item costs PRICE + VAT if you are a EU citizen.
Of course we aren't going to buy unless it's really cheap. I once buyed some t-shirts from thinkgeek, I didn't pay VAT at the time but I payed some on customs to pick up the delivery. I heard some stupid things like paying more in customs than what you pay for what you order... ain't taxes a bitch for free trade?
rm -rf /home/leia
Either I haven't been reading the news, or this hasn't made the news at all... I'm not outraged by the VAT thing, but I am a little disgruntled that I'm reading about this on Slashdot, and not in the local newspaper or on TV.
Anyone in Finland catch this on the news?
.: Max Romantschuk
I've been buying a lot online in the States lately because of the bonus I now get with the Euro being valued so high against the dollar. This will neatly compensate for the savings I make on the exchange rate.
However, there's nothing really new actually, because officially you were supposed to pay the VAT taxes when the product went through custom. The thing was, some packages would be intercepted in customs, and you'd get a bill for the VAT, and others wouldn't. Profit!
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
I know a couple that have hiked postage costs to cover their extra expenditure, and it looks like ebid.com have recieved those customers that have abandoned ship. Customers are also angry that Ebay have claimed to have dropped other prices to compensate, when they blatantly haven't....
How can you collect sales tax on a used item? The tax was already paid here by the original purchaser.
Most items I sell are used or "prepurchased" or involve a service. None of these items are taxable here and are considered sold at yard sale or at auction. Neither of which in my state are taxed. For some reason, some live (in person) auctioners charge tax here, but they aren't suppose to. They are told to by local governments who "slip it in"
Again, if something is used, taxes have already been paid and it's benefits to society have also created revenue generation, which in turn, is more tax collected. Say I buy a printer at retail. I pay the sales tax. Then, I use said printer to print my envelopes, receipts, business cards, correspondence, pictures to sell, etc etc - generating more income for my business. I have also used said printer purchase to make more money to spend and thus taxed, giving even more money to the government for the printer!
A lot of people that collect tax on eBay and especially Yahoo NEVER pay that back into the government. This is like the bogus people that collect tax at flea markets or for service calls.
I will hope that eBay will just add the VAT to the total bill so that we don't have to collect it and pay into some sort of escrow.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
"...And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value.... "
There's no Value Added Tax on goods in EEUU ?
All taxes are still collected by the producer of the good?
Strange.. I did'nt know
==
That's the time harvesters,that's the time to be care
get back all this people, so ostentatious and arrogan
This sucks.
But who's gonna get the newly collected VAT?
does it go into the EU or does it go to the country that the goods are purchased for?
Some companies have already found a way around this. For example, Play.com is located in Jersey, an island off the cost of the UK and France which is a tax haven. They can thus not pay any VAT, and still easily ship to the UK.
MoJo
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Living in sweden, the only reason that I buy stuff from Amazon is that (even including costs for transports), the books are like 10-15% cheaper, and that music cd:s are like 25% cheaper. If VAT is added, this price difference will be void, and thus I will simply stop buying stuff from USA. It will simply be faster, cheaper and more convenient to buy stuff locally. My suspicion is that this is also the reason why the EU wants to add this tax: It is a way to force citizens to buy stuff from the EU instead, thus supporting the local industry.
People in the UK (and presumably the rest of the EU) have always had to pay VAT on things they have physicially imported. Why should the internet be any different. VAT is an important component in the EU model of taxation and closing this loop hole can only be good for our public services like schools and hospitals. People always moan about taxes, it can't be that complicated to implement.
Struggling to find a day everyone can make? WhenShallWe.com
Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value.
Allways should have done, legally speaking, and products allways do as well. To get around it you simply need to set up a stateside bank account and a remailer address with a friend. No Problem.
An infinite number of monkeys will eventually come up with the complete works of
I have NEVER heard of an efficient Government,
especially ours in the US. A friend originally from Sweden said this SAME thing about US taxes so I
really don't believe you.
Also, if you live in Mass, you have an optional
higher tax rate which 300 or so actually paid
last year.
Why would you want to give your hard earned money to a government? Do you really trust them to know the best way to spend money? Are social programs a good use for your taxes? I, for one, resent paying 15% of my earnings (well company has to "pay" 1/2 of that) to a slush fund called social security which has a very low (1% or so) projected rate of return and has been raided by
the democrats for years to pay for welfare etc.
When I order goods from the USA in future, I will have to pay:
In truth this sounds to me like an alternative method of adding a 15-25% Tarriff on non EU Goods and services and really should face reciprocal tarriffs from the USA etc.
Whatever happened to the British idea of Free Trade, looks like we've sold it down the sewer for a piece of the Euro pie :(
At least I won't have to charge these silly fees to my customers in other EU countries as I come under the UK Vat registration level at the moment.
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
I've got to wonder why a US company would collect EU taxes. Wouldn't the destination country just do it when the merchandise is picked up?
Profanity - The sign of a small mind trying to express itself.
And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value
Did you need another reason to keep your money in your pocket? Now you have one.
How can this behoove (sp?) the US? Isn't everyone complaining about the economy? Isn't foreign purchases a great way to get much needed dollars?
And doesn't the US regularly ignore the demands of the rest of the world anyway? (last sentence not meant as a troll)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I agree, what a damn hassle. This is one of the things that lobbyists against the taxation in the US complain about. It is very difficult to collect tax under 50+ different plans. Now, it looks like the world may want to add 100's of different expenses, which also add LOTS of man hours. (to the selling end and receiving end) Ultimately, I bet this generates little extra revenue due to the number of "collectors/enforcers" they have to hire in EACH country to make sure everyone is getting their fair share.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
if e-bay, Amazon, and other e-tailers are transfering those taxes to the propper EU countries? How?
-- (:> jms cs.vu.nl (_) --"---
From my cold dead, er, wait . . .
.
.
Give me Liberty or give me, er, hold on . .
If I had a hammer, I'd hammer, no, not that one . .
No taxation without representation! No tea for me!
Crap! Isn't there an old bumper-sticker worthy phrase for this nonsense?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Doesn't this give companies with EU offices a competitive advantage?
If you're based in the US, you have to manage 15 different tax rates, and do 15 times as much paperwork. If you're based in the EU, you can use your local rate, and do it once instead of 15 times.
At least, here in Portugal, packages from outside EU are charged for its VAT. If the item value is not declared in the package they will use a listed price to calculate the VAT.
TAxes are not that well applied everywhere in EU but I think it is fair to use the same rules for every items no matter its origins. We can either charge VAT for everything or *NOT* charge at all.
And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value."
Assuming that governments have to collect taxes somehow, why is this a bad way to do it, as opposed to income or corporate tax?
Although many Americans give the impression that they think all taxes are evil, over here in Europe we quite like having things like free health care for everyone, tidy streets etc. We think that it makes for a fairer and more civilized society, even if it means that we are all a little poorer (in monetary terms) than you guys. Many of us find the attitude of some Americans - that taxes and social government are 'evil' - frankly a bit bizzare.
Although I guess it is understandable looking at the current state of politics in the USA. How is it that you guys no longer seem to be bothered about such essentials of democracy as transparency and avoiding rid of conflict of interest in your political leaders?
I can see a lot of consumers picking stores they know won't collect the VAT. After all, those stores will have a 15% discount on their items compared to the stores that collect VAT.
Living in Sweden (where VAT is a heft 25%) it has always been lucrative to order stuff on the internet from the US. I remember when buying a single CD from Amazon (inluding shipping) was cheaper and faster than ordering it from a local e-merchant.
This is especially true for software where you can download the product immediately after buying it. Last week I purchased Norton AV from Symantec. Price on Symantec's swedish store = SEK 620. Price on symantects US store = 350 SEK, That's almost a 50% discount just a few clicks away!
Then again, we have 12.5% GST in New Zealand, so I guess I am used to it.
Perhaps the members of the EU will now want to buy less of the cheap, American products. It seems strange, as I have learnt to accept cheap products as coming from other places. "Made in America" still has a better ring to it than "Made in China".
A multinational currency... I wonder when USA will cave in and join the European Union.
Ask me about repetitive DNA
This new taxation only concers eletronically transmitted goods. Like an MP3 file or a program. There is no change for physical goods, like books, DVDs or Computers. Those are still taxed when they come through customs.
Since non-physical, i.e. transmitted via the net, goods don`t go through customs, they have to find another way to tax it.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value.
That 15% to 25% is a tax which (theoretically) will go to fund other services, just like any other tax.
I appreciate Slashdot doesn't pretend to be unbiased, but can we please keep the flamebait out of story submissions.
>Why would you want to give your hard earned money to a government? Because you want the government to be able to provide services to all citizens. That's what a social democracy is all about. I for one have just received my university degree and I still have money on my bank account because education is supported by the government here in Switzerland. Thank you society! Hrshgn
Sorry paying local tax is a good thing, its not fair to local venders. Lets be honist buying things on line and not paying sales tax is little more then a loop hole.
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Free education? Free healthcare? I'm from slovenia.. and anyone who wants to go to college needs only to pass exams (which are equal for everyone). If you (as student) can't make a living.. goverment even pays you to study. Socialism is great.. but you wouldn't know until you try it...
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05/07/21542
good to see the search works for readers, it doesnt it seem work the same for editors
In am an EU plod, i was sat here opposite my American collegue reading this just saying i wonder how long it would take for some tit to start the EU v US patriotic rant.
This may come as a bit of a shock, but no one fcuking hates you at all, we are not what the American news service says we are.
And before you rant off on remember, it seems perfectly justified for your country to go against the rest of the UN and do things you think its best, you try and enforce your law on the rest of the world perhaps its time you tried intergrating and find out what the rest of the world is like.
Feel tree to troll this is just my opinion.
S
Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
"Why would you want to give your hard earned money to a government?"
er..so they can build hospitals, railway networks etc. Or do you think each citizen should build his own hospital, set of railway lines etc?
Well, government just has to get its taxes somewhere. So you either tax the money the moment it's earned (income tax), or the moment it's spent (VAT, special taxes on gasoline, alcohol, tabacco...).
:).
Income taxes can easily be enforced locally, but people don't like to have their hard-earned money taken away before they even saw it.
VAT and their likes _could_ be enforced locally, i.e. the place where the money is actually spent. So if I buy a TV in Luxembourg, I pay 15% VAT to the the local government, and if I buy it in Sweden, I pay 25% VAT. But this difference in taxes would create a shift of consumption towards the low-VAT countries, so the idea of locally enforcing VAT was frowned upon by several governments (usually in countries with a high VAT). Thus it never happend. VATs are due where you live, not where you spend your money.
"Tax-free shopping" is possible because of this. As a German citizen, you can buy that camera in Japan, get back that 5% VAT you payed, return to Germany, and pay the 16% VAT at the German customs . (Nobody does it and everyone claims that they had the camera before they left the country...)
Extending this idea of "pay VAT where you live" to the internet is only logical, as not doing so would open a loophole, and shops would go online just to save the VAT. Also, requesting that the individual customer pays his taxes (as it's done with tax-free shopping) somehow doesn't work as advertised, so goind after the businesses and requesting them to collect the taxes makes sense, in a way
Personally, I prefer VATs over income taxes, because _I_ can decide the time my money is taxed. If I want to save money, I can earn interest on my full income and I can pay the taxes the day I buy that new computer/gadget/house/whatever.
(On a sidenote, in Europe you usually see the prices printed including VAT, so nobody notices how much VAT they pay. You'd have to read the fine print on your receipt.)
Governments being what they are, obviously like to tax both ways instead of deciding on one sort of taxes. But I disgress...
That's why i've stopped to buy anything in the US (DVD mainly). It was much cheaper, but most of time, the goods were intercept by the customs which asked me about 15-20% of the values. Example 3 DVDs (for 55 â) : about 12-15 euros to pay !. So a tax again !? At the beginning (back in 1998), I was asking for paying custom about every 3 orders). Now it's systematic.
Does anyone have any information on how an online tax would affect micropayments? Does PayPal intend to charge tax on deposits?
From what I've read, the big issue with micropayments is, of course, dealing with the amount of overhead involved when using a credit card for purchases of a few cents or even a few dollars. Figuring out tax rates would seem to take this to another level, especially in schemes like Ronald Rivest's which involves 'throwing out' a certain random number of micropayments (i forget the name of it...subject of a few papers, one mentioned on slashdot awhile ago).
It's kinda hard to charge someone 15% of 1c, since over 100 payments you're going to have to charge that 15c somewhere. I believe in the Rivest scheme you get charged soemthing like $10 every now and then, so I suppose that would be the likely place to tax, yet you're not exactly being charged for an actual product, more like adding to a shared account of sorts.
How can you collect sales tax on a used item? The tax was already paid here by the original purchaser
Everybody pays sales tax, when the farmer sells his apples to the distributor, the distributor has to pay sales tax to the farmer, when the supermarket buys the apples from the distributor, the supermarket has to pay sales tax to the distributor, and when you, the consumer, buys the apples from the supermarket, you have to pay sales tax to the supermarket.
Everyone who sells anything has to collect sales tax for the governament, the difference in collected and paid tax (usually a positive number) is then paid to the goverment by the seller.
The same rule applies if you sell a 500 year old painting, you have to pay sales tax ..
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Since mail order isn't as convienient as going to a shop (delay waiting for the delivery) and for those who can't go to a shop (disabilties etc...) it's a lifeline to use the Internet.
Stop brabblingCalm down, take you pills, go to bed and by tomorrow your wild visions and distorted view of europe and 'socialism' will be gone.
Hello Mr. US,
this is your personal wake-up call.
There is lots of country behind the big pond that surrounds your little island. Believe it or not there are people living there and doing trade. All these people do not belong to the american free trade zone! What a shame, they have their own trading zone called EU.
By the way this is the area were the steel is comming from that US government has put sactions on.
EU Citizen Y
-quote- You have all these people just boiling over with jealousy about the US, saying all kinds of nasty things. -end-quote-
That's where the good old american arrogance pops up again. You know... a lot of americans seem to think that the rest of the world is jaleous at them...snap out of it please. If my country (in the EU) ever turns out like the US, I'd kill myself...
I'd rather not live in a country without government healthcare, with a government that tries to dominate and arrange the whole world thus endangering their own people, I'd rather not live in a country where haute cuisine seems to be a cheeseburger, where litigation is a way of life, where money and enterprises (instead of the people) control politics. You can have your good old US, please keep out of here...
You have all these people just boiling over with jealousy about the US, saying all kinds of nasty things.
Why do americans persistently believe we Europeans are jealous? Sure you've got a few baubles we'd like but there's always something shitty to balance it out.
Or is it just that claiming we're all jealous avoids the need to think about why we really distrust most things american?
I do not believe that Europeans generally dislike the governmental structure of the United States, but rather the policy of the government which is significantly more to the right on the political scale. The way I feel is, if we have to become a big federal country in order to stand up to the US (which I sadly feel is increasingly necessary, for many reasons), then so be it. There will be drawbacks as well but we will have to accept them as the alternative is worse. Small independant countries are shark meat in today's world.
As for socialism, well, the EU institutions as such and the treaties that founded them really are fairly liberal (in the non-American sense, where liberalism is considered freedom, etc).
I think your comparison with the USSR is quite a bit off. We're talking about old and stable democracies with market economies.
>"These remain challenging times for many American Internet companies," wrote Rep. Cliff Stearns.... "We ask that they be given a fair chance and a level playing field."
Yep, and so do the EU businesses (living in equally challenging times)- who want VAT levied on purchases made outside the EU, just as they currently are on purchases made within the EU
So, although this will hurt my wallet, as I buy good online from outside the EU, I will benefit by the increased taxes raised by my government, and by the level playing field which now operates between Us/ EU companies.
It *wont* affect US purchases, so US readers can continue flying the 'no-tax' flag all they like
http://milkshake.dexy.org
Im surprised... for a long time I really did think that most Slashdot posters actually thought about what they replied to... Do people really not bother to read about the subject first?
1) This is a tax on *digital* goods. Downloadable content. Online services. Nothing changes for physical stuff like books. VAT was always charged on those. Just like if you had ordered an item by snail mail.
2) What is all this nonsense about a sudden unfair trade advantage? EU based companies have had to pay EU VAT on their digital goods for ages! Finally the 15-20% advantage that the non-EU based companies were enjoying, has been rectified. Although I admit that having to work out 15 different VAT rates does present an extra administrative hurdle. Still, what are computers for if not to automate these administrative tasks?
WARNING Reality/Political flame ahead.
Seems to me that what is reall going on is liberal 'fairness'. Think about it. You live in the EU and you can buy stuff online cheaper from the US then actually walking into a local store and buying it.
Gee that isn't 'fair'.
Seems fair to me.
If the US was such a bastion of free trade like you image, explain the protectionist steel tarrifs right now which stop US companies importing cheap steel from Europe?
The US has it's own protectionist policies, why can't the EU.
This is a great thing for a European consumer.
Before I had to go the tax office to pay VAT.
Now when the VAT is already paid when the package arrives to my country (in this case Finland), I can get the packets to my doorstep.
VERY handy!
That was the VAT. If you pay at origin it will not be charged at Customs.
You were commiting fraud 3 of every four orders previously....
==
That's the time harvesters,that's the time to be care
get back all this people, so ostentatious and arrogan
"Someone needs to explain to me how the EU can enforce American companies to collect a tax for the EU."
I don't think they can, and i don't think american companies should be bothered.
"Seems to me that what is reall going on is liberal 'fairness'. Think about it. You live in the EU and you can buy stuff online cheaper from the US then actually walking into a local store and buying it."
It might not be actually cheaper. Shipping and handling is a killer + import duty.
"And speaking of the EU. What is the deal with that montrosity anyways?
You have all these people just boiling over with jealousy about the US, saying all kinds of nasty things. But they all are appearing to emulate us. I mean 250 years ago we were a collection of territories that all were independent."
jelousy? i doubt. emulate? i hope not. and for the degree of independence of states please explain the "war of secession".
and somehow i don't think the US have a license on a union.
"But I can look at it another way too. There is another (defunct and sad place today) place that did the same damn thing. The USSR. And we all know what kind of nasty failure that was."
The soviet union was formed mainly by conquest and coercion. states join the EU by their own choice (referendum).
"Sometimes the EU just smacks a little too much of socialism for my taste. I think if I lived there I would be very, very unhappy with the state of affairs."
define what you mean with "socialism" and explain why you don't like it.
"I am not even sure if a common currency is a good idea."
will be seen. i personaly have to say, i like the idea of travelling to the netherlands and not having to go through the currency exchange hassle (+the exchange fee loss). except that merchants used the currency and inflated prices because the figures still look smaller than before (in germany at least) i don't see a real problem so far. but the currency is only 4 years old, so i guess we'll have to wait and see.
Just like they do it now in countries like Belgium. I'll give you an example:
I order $30 worth of MT Ts from thinkgeek. They ship it to me, and when it goes through customs, they say "Oh look! No VAT number!", and for me to get my parcel they make me pay VAT (EU10) and handling fees (EU20). Or I put the VAT number of a company, and they just send the VAT bill to that company(I think).
Eventually if a company wants to ship competitively to the EU, they'll have to figure out how to charge the tax at source.
I don't like the EU much either, what with my libertarian tendencies, but the rest of your post is just uninformed waffle. Sorry dude.
Or until you try to produce wealth. Way to go deadbeat, you're living off of someone else's dime. Go you!
All tax is theft.
AOL is one of the UK's largest ISPs. They got into the UK market early, at the time when most UK ISPs were small private companies, and have continued to be a major player in the UK market ever since.
But, because AOL UK is based outside the UK, AOL doesn't have to charge its customers VAT.
Good thing right? No. Bad thing. Very bad thing.
Whereas the UK-based companies, including almost all of the small private startups (many started by people who had previously run bulletin boards, etc), had to charge their customers VAT and then pass on that tax to the government, AOL used loopholes in the VAT legislation to avoid having to charge VAT yet it charged its customers the same amount that the tax-paying ISPs did.
In effect, AOL was able to charge its customers more for its services yet compete at the same level as everyone else - whereas the competition's prices included 17.5 percent VAT, AOL's prices included 17.5 percent extra profit.
Clearly, this has provided AOL with an artificial competitive advantage.
Breaking down the costs shows this more clearly:
AOL: £15.00/month charge, £15.00/month to AOL, £0.00 VAT to government.
UK-based ISP: £15.00/month charge, £12.76 to ISP, £2.24 VAT to government.
To make the same amount of money from each customer, the UK-based ISPs would have to charge £17.63 (£15.00 plus 17.5 percent).
Obviously, providing internet access costs money, and it's the difference between what you can charge and what it costs you that generates your profit. Well, in this case, it's like AOL has an extra £2.24 per customer for free. This isn't so much of a problem if operating costs are small, but it's a pretty big one when costs and charges are almost similar - and we all know just how cut-throat the ISP industry is don't we?
It's clearly ridiculous that two companies both providing the same service to the same customers in the same country should be effected by taxation so differently. And, of course, this point has been made by many within the UK internet community many times. However, until now, nothing's been done about it.
Some of the larger ISPs disadvantaged by this situation have threatened to take their operations overseas too, so as to put themselves in AOL's priviledged position, but this has never really been an option for the smaller guys that have been around from day one and that have hung on in there - relocating your business overseas isn't cheap and easy.
Even if AOL starts paying VAT now, the damage has already been done. Almost a decade of tax-free operation has allowed it to become one of the most dominant UK ISPs - all that extra cash has bought it a lot of extra TV and radio advertising as well as CDs.
I'm not in favour of taxation for taxation's sake but I am in favour of a level playing field. And, in AOL's case, the field's finally being levelled out.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"Someone needs to explain to me how the EU can enforce American companies to collect a tax for the EU."
Its no different from duty and other taxes for goods shipped to the EU. A lot of US companies pre-pay the duty tax on physical sales into the EU. This is no different.
As for how they enforce it, you pay by credit card, thats cleared from EU citizens, so either they pay or the tax will be pre-deducted from the outgoing payments.
US companies don't have to pay EU taxes, only if they want to sell into the EU and its no different from physical sales from the EU into the US.
What I find strange is that US allows tax free sales in the US via the internet, so offshore internet sales are undercutting your own box-software sales that pay the sales tax. Why? You're undercutting your own US companies that way?
I do most certainly like that added value thank you. I kind of like the idea that the weaker members of my society are provided for so paying taxes is no problem for me. Right now customs has to stop my parcel here (the Netherlands) and I get to pick up my parcel and a bill for an unexpected amount of money in some customs office. This costs me a lot of time and the individual taxation in small amounts is really inefficient.
By making all US-based businesses that sell to private persons in the EU collect and pay that tax efficiency rises and, as an added bonus, I get my parcel faster and I will know the full amount I have to pay up front instead of on delivery. That this will cost American companies some money and some business is just to bad(tm). (and fair towards europe based businesses).
If you can read this, you're too close
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I know this is probably a vain hope, but I'd like to see some actual infomation on the regulations. I'm quite suspicious of the things the media are saying - they don't sound right at all. In particular, I don't see that the EU can require a body not actually trading in the EU to pay VAT. They could and can require their own citizens to pay/charge it, but I don't see they can require overseas entities to do so.
Note that both AOL and EBay actually operate and provide services in the EU, so bloody well should have been charging VAT in the first place. These are not US entities, they are EU entities owned by US entities, so are subject to EU law.
I can't see it affects small US businesses at all. Or Slashdot subscriptions. It's not up to you to pay EU taxes, though the people you sell to might have to.
Of course, it's possible the EU have taken a leaf out of the US book and decided to enact extra-territorial laws ("Don't trade with Cuba because we say so, or we'll break you.").
We Europeans simply don't care about the US, we don't spend out days wishing we were Americans, we don't envy the US, we are not always comparing ourselves to Americans, we don't think we have a lot to learn from America, America is on the periphery of our consciousness.
We organise things (like health care) the way we like them, and we organise things (like taxes) the way we like them.
We are big and economically powerful enough that major (and minor) American companies *have* to comply with our laws if they want to benefit from our large market.
And if Americans don't like it, don't like us, don't like the way we do things, don't like the EU, guess what? We don't care...
hmm.. to get some facts straight:
- currently it seems the USD tanks, not the Euro (which is doing pretty well)
- Disney is your beast (cf Sen. Hooligan), not ours
- To ensure freedom for everyone, certain things just cry for regulation, like the education stuff..
- The Euro was worked on and defended by the countries with the strongest currencies
- If anything, the USA currently adopts the practices of germany in the 30s (anti-islamism instead of anti-judaism, WTC instead of Reichstag, Iraq instead of Poland, TIA and PATRIOT instead of Gestapo and Ermaechtigungsgesetz - but else?)
I surely hope we'll never "emulate" this
"I for one have just received my university degree and I still have money on my bank account because education is supported by the government here in Switzerland. Thank you society!"
Of course, you either don't have a job, or you are severely underemployed.
What does it matter anyway? Your degree is in something useless...
My guess is that this is something the American companies choose to do because it actually benefits their customers. You see, the European customers (who are European citizens) have to pay the sales tax (VAT) anyway, so it's easier for them to do this through the company where they buy the goods rather than having the goods stopped in customs, and extra fees added for customs processing etc.
Here is an article about how much trouble the collecting of Norwegian VAT is causing for Norwegian citizens. (Note: Norway is not a member of the EU, but probably has pretty much the same laws regarding sales tax anyway.) If American companies could collect the tax on purchase instead, this would be incredibly much simpler for Norwegians buying stuff from the USA...
Replying to my own article: they have gone mad.
Ernst & Young note on the regulations.
I wonder how they intend enforcing this. I can't see any way to do it unless there are agreements with the other countries involved.
"I do NOT want to see the lack of basic ammenities that the US is subjected to."
Right.
Dude, I am from the US.
I paid for my education, and I have no safety net.
In return, here's my social benefit:
1) Worlds best medical benefits covered by my employer. No waiting for anything. I can see the top specialists in the world.
2) I have a large country estate on several acres
3) With swimming pool, of course.
4) Brand new his/hers BMW's
5) We vacation 3 times a year
Tell me again about your wonderful life, loser.
And let me give you a hint... risk = reward. When you eliminate risk, you eliminate reward.
Oh, by the way, my pool is heated.
But I'll bet you have a really nice bicycle and apartment!
plain and simple. I will find a distributer in the eu. They buy my products for resale, therefor they wont have to pay the tax, therefor i dont have to charge it. Any one from the eu that wants to buy my products will get sent to the distibutor. If you want to lie and say your are a distibutor or you dont live in the eu thats not my problem. regardless im not changeing my biz to acomidate some other goverments rules. i dont have a company in the eu. i am not bound by their laws. If they think other wise they need to remeber wars that have killed thousands of people have been started over more petty shit than this.
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition!
If the british are smart thay will jump ship. there lives depend on it.
We substituted the coffee Slashdot normally drinks with "Sandoz Crystals", Lets see if they notice the difference
"the problem is that the US abolished it."
No, the US has never had a VAT tax.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
"Allways should have done, legally speaking"
No, taxes are to be avoided by any means. Because government is never a producer of wealth.
Of sure, the government needs to tax some things to make them work...road taxes to pay for roads and bridges. Property taxes to pay for public schools and libraries.
But it is infantile to expect a "mommy government" to look after you no matter what.
Of course, you don't see it, because you think like a child.
I don't think you're dumb, I just feel sorry for you that you don't want to experience life as an adult.
Let me explain how this VAT thing works as i've read a few incorrect statements.
When you are an EU customer and are importing goods, or buying a service, from a company in another EU state you will have to pay the VAT to either your own state, if you have a VAT number (i.e. you a re a company or a professional), or to the state from which you're buying from.
Let me give a few examples:
Company A in IT buys from Company B in DE:
A pays the net price to B and IT VAT to the Italian state.
A, because is a company, will subtract the VAT payed from the amount it owes to the state.
Individual A in IT buys from Company B in DE:
A pays the net price + DE VAT to B.
B will in turn forward the DE VAT to their own state.
Now that's the situation in the EU. If you're buying from the USA the things are a little bit different:
Company A in IT buys from Company B in the USA:
A pays the net price to B and the IT VAT + customs to the Italian state.
Individual A in IT buys from Company B in the USA:
A pays the net price to B and should pay IT VAT + import tax to the Italian state.
What really happens is that, often, A will not pay the VAT nor the import tax because the package is not checked at the customs.
This is, however, illegal.
What is going to change:
This may seem strange, but is just a way to enforce the law which will, however, put some hassle to USA companies.
As this tax only applies to digitally delivered products, one option as a buyer is to simply lie about your location. OK they may need an address for the credit-card holder, but I'm sure this can be worked around easily enough. There's nothing the EU can do to force compoanies to comply so I suspect such dodges will be widespread, and sites will make it easy for users to do it, so they attract more business away from competitors who are dumb enough to do as the EU tells them. I'm sure many places may also collect the VAT and just pocket it. There's nothing the EU can do, so whu should they worry?
Assuming that governments have to collect taxes somehow, why is this a bad way to do it, as opposed to income or corporate tax?
Because in a fair tax, the rich pay either the same, or more than the poor. Income tax handles this -- either with a flat percent or with increasing brackets. The problem with sales tax is that while Mr. Millionaire might buy more things than you do, he doesn't buy *proportionally* more things -- a man can only drink so much beer, after all.
So as a total percentage of income, Mr, Millionaire pays *less* sales tax than you! Not very socially progressive, eh? Not surprisingly, the rich have always hated income tax and preferred sales tax for exactly this reason.
I think you are contradicting yourself...
"In particular, I don't see that the EU can require a body not actually trading in the EU to pay VAT."
"I can't see it affects small US businesses at all. Or Slashdot subscriptions. It's not up to you to pay EU taxes, though the people you sell to might have to."
These two statements are contradictory...
If I, a European Citizen, buy a product from your US based company, then that's a trade. Your company is trading in the EU.
Sales tax in physical stores is collected by the seller on behalf of the government.
Sales tax on physical products bought overseas over the internet is sometimes, but not always, collected by customs as "import duty" (depending on the value of the goods and how lazy the port authorities are on that day).
Sales tax on non-physical items such as services (e-bay listing/selling fees) or mp3 files bought over the net is not collected at all at the moment. That is what this law is about. They want the seller to cllect the sales tax on their behalf, as if they were a real store, for goods and services traded on the net.
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
If we in the UK (and I presume the rest of the EU) order from US companies we already have to pay VAT and other import duties at customs.
Just because it ships from the US retailer without paying that tax at, say $100, doesn't mean that is the end price for us the consumer. As well as paying your retailer in dollars I have to pay my customs in pounds. It's not a simpe one-click purchase and then delivered two weeks later.
This is a procedural change to close the loophole by which many packages get through without duty paid, and to stop the customs warehouses being clogged with unclaimed thinkgeek.com packages, and which will mean, hopefully, that my parcel doesn't wait in customs a week while I arrange to pay additional import fees.
Currently importing from a US retailer is not worth the hassle for me as a consumer. Perhaps this change will make those retailers more attractive to me.
erroneous: look me up in a dictionary
Firstly, your English is terrible.
For starters, maybe you retards in Europe can stop thinking you're "the rest of the world." You're a fucking history relic, deal with it. You're a small, partially singificant piece of the world. The U.S. is quite integrated into the world. Its culture dominates the modern world, even while you babble your nationalism from your has-been segment of the world. Deal with it already.
"why is this a bad way to do it, as opposed to income or corporate "
Because income tax is based on your ability to pay. It is graduated based on levels of income. Thus, the person who makes $1M per year pays a higher percentage of income than the person who makes $30K per year.
The funny part is stores in most of Europe can't display the VAT tax separately, because your government is afraid if you saw how much tax you paid every day on necessities, you'd rebel in 6 months.
But hey, you've got "free" health care. And like most of life, you get quality commensurate with what you paid.
Yeah well, FreeBSD is impotent.
Yes every government should have to let in foreign extremists that want to overthrow it!
That makes A LOT of sense!
you obviously do not live in that shithole stockholm :D
:D At least the trains work unlike rip off britain. Oh and the broadband :P
heh
I refuse to live there myself. I live in the countryside and wont give it up
An other reason for shifting taxation to expenditure is that people who work cash in hand or have other professions where paying tax on wages is, shall we say, complicated are forced to pay tax when they spend their money. So make a "cool 20 gee" from "slinging rock" go spend it all on a sportscar and Her Majesty will still get her 3,500 from the V.A.T. thank you very much.
It's also easier [in theory] to administer 1000 V.A.T. registered shops than 1,000,000 PAYE registered workers.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
New Europe is a baby. There's nothing old about it, and it's hardly in any position to consider itself stable. Your stable democracies can't go a hundred years without collapsing.
" wonder when USA will cave in and join the European Union."
The European Union won't last another 10 years.
Look at the comments the other day from the French minister and you'll understand the EU has accomplished what Napolean and Hitler could not.
I laughed for a long time.
Living in sweden, the only reason that I buy stuff from Amazon is that (even including costs for transports), the books are like 10-15% cheaper, and that music cd:s are like 25% cheaper. If VAT is added, this price difference will be void, and thus I will simply stop buying stuff from USA.
... only when it allows them to bypass the concerns of their local citizens, or constitutional limits on their power, not when it means people might actually shop abroad. It is quite remeniscent of DVD Region coding in a way ... the media cartels don't like globalism either, except when it lets them sell to folks abroad, but only if they can keep the local folks overpaying for exactly the same material.
That is the real point of this. If the governments in question were really interested in collecting taxes, they would be doing so at the customs level, improving oversight and checking of incoming packages. Something that, given the amount of smuggling that goes on wrt drugs, weapons, and who knows what sort of biotoxins and other nice things in the decades to come, they really ought to be doing anyway.
Instead they have laid the burden on US shopkeepers who are not under their jurisdiction. It is no different than the US belligerence in enforcing US laws outside of its own borders, and while it may be refreshing to see the US get a taste of its own medicine, this isn't the US government that is being negatively affected, it is US businesses.
But this is all really besides the point. This is really about protectionism, and keeping folks like yourself from shopping online, outside your own borders, by artificially inflating the costs of shopping abroad. Local and regional governments, including our own here in the US, don't like their citizens shopping outside of their jurisdiction, where their control (and profits) are reduced. In short, our governments don't really like globalism in any real sense all that much
All that having been said, I would prefer the elimination of income tax and capital gains tax in favor of a federal sales tax (even if said tax were 30%), as it would eliminate the governments ability and excuse for examining our personal finances and private lives with a microscope at their whim, and leave only public financial transactions within their pervue. The gain in privacy and personal security (no one fears any part of the government more than the IRS) would be well worth the sticker shock.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
To get around it you simply need to set up a stateside bank account and a remailer address with a friend. No Problem.
Already got it. Here in Ireland VAT is an astounding 21% (Actually, they reently made a big deal about moving it down to 20% and a month later they quietly moved it back up) but, lucky for me, being the dual citizen that I am, I have an NY billing address.
Don't mean to sound like I'm bragging, but my main point is that it also lets me use the Apple Music Store. So, in conclusion, get a US billing address, it's worth it.
Yup...
"Income taxes can easily be enforced locally, but people don't like to have their hard-earned money taken away before they even saw it."
Well, the beauty of things is that in Europe, you get to pay income tax and VAT.
Best of both worlds!
SO the effective tax rate in most of Europe is 60-70%.
But hey, they get FREE medical care.
How anyone can say that with a straight face is a mystery, but, what the hell.
If it's in the EU, then the store is in fact selling items in the EU like any store in the EU, hence has to collect VAT. If the sale takes place in the USA, then the sale is logically equivalent to travelling to the USA, buying something there, and taking it back to you. The customer will then have to pay some import/export tax.
It's perfectly valid for the EU to regard this kind of sale as taking place in the EU, until this situation is cleared up by international trade agreements. And in the EU, the seller is responsible for collection VAT.
Whenever I order something that comes in a box (say a book, CD's), it has to go through customs, and the VAT is added anyway. Only when ordering software for download or services, I get the US price.
That is, if the manufacturer doesn't differentiate the prices: Adobe.com (Acrobat standard: US: 299 USD, EU: 369 EUR. that's 40% more, before adding VAT! (making my price 70% higher than in the US. Adobe claims: but you get free support! (unlike the US version) ).
A free and open market? get real!
Maarten
And my country is free of racial tension because we have strictly limited immigration from trouble makers.
There are so many things wrong with that statement that I don't even know where to begin.
Sweden has racists and facists, I live there myself and I have seen it. Its not a pretty sight. People tend to hide it under the carpet as it is bad image. I lost count how often i heard the term "JÃvla Engelskman" etc And i do tell it how it is. On the plus side there are lots more nice people that outnumber those so called hardline "nationlists".
Fact. Dont say otherwise, I live here and see it.
Or perhaps you meant that only "dark" people should not be allowed in. Excellent...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Up until now, you were supposed to notify your taxing agency yourself that you purchased a product abroad, and that you were due VAT on that purchase. Of course nobody (except the extremely silly) ever did this, and pocketed the VAT he was supposed to pay.
From now on the burden of processing and declaring the VAT is put on the retailer side (as it is in the EU now). You are still due import taxes, and your parcel will still be stopped for customs. For the consumer point of view, this will increase prices with 20% - 25% for all goods acquired overseas.
Mind you, that companies with a VAT number do NOT have to pay VAT for these operations if it is deductible. The extra burden in online shops will not be the VAT percentage they are supposed to add (which is relatively simple), but checking valid VAT numbers.
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
[Zappa]
That depends on the definition of "trading in", which is rather the problem here. It's difficult to tie down on the Internet, and is in any case a legal concept defined by the laws.
yeah I'll send 'em a nice pizza with pork sausage all over it. can I have it delivered by bulldozer?
"I kind of like the idea that the weaker members of my society are provided for so paying taxes is no problem for me"
I mean, except for VAT.
You're an unemployed student, so I suppose the idea of someone taking care of you is appealing.
Enjoy your bicycle.
This regulation only applies to electronic goods, e.g. web hosting, music, etc. What stops me from buying this through an US address? Can I just ask someone in the US to buy these and give me full access to them and later send him the money?
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
Meanwhile, dear Britain, please remove yourself from the EU now. It is not a socialist paradise, it's just an impotent US-wannabe. Once Blair's got the EU member out of his mouth, he can also stand up straight and remove Bush's member from his backside. Then perhaps Britain can actually do stuff for itself again.
Errr....what?
Value Added Tax is a tax on the value you've added to a product. If you buy a widget at 10UKP and sell it at 15UKP then you pay tax on 15-10 = 5 UKP. (Well, in principle; the mechanics are a bit more complicated. You charge VAT on the full price of everything you sell, pay VAT on the full price of everything you buy, take the latter from the former and pay the result to the authorities).
The Value Added Taxation is a tax on the consumer: if the VAT is 20%, the consumer has to pay 20% more for the product - this way, who sells the good gets back the money he already paid.
What happened until is that, because USA companies didn't pay the VAT to EU tax offices, they could not charge the tax to the consumer. So, at the end, the european consumer didn't pay tax. Looks like unfair competition! If you want to enter the european market, you have to abide by the european rules!
-- Matteo
Railway lines?
Don't be ridulous - I can buy a HumVee and drive anywhere I want, when I'm not in my private jet.
Organised public transportation is communism - it takes your freedom!
yeah I'll send 'em a nice pizza with pork sausage all over it. can I have it delivered by bulldozer?
Certainly! Just stand in front of one of those terrorist tunnels that are disguized as homes of 'innocents' and it will be right over. You might miss the feast since work comes first.
Unfortunately, that's not always the case. One of my friends found this out the hard way, when she ordered a whole load of cosmetics from a supplier in Australia, where they were selling considerably cheaper than the UK. She was told that what she was paying the supplier covered everything including charges for getting the stuff to the UK, but then got hit with an extra tax bill running to several figures when the stuff arrived.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Because we don't take most of europe into account any more.
The US is looking east to China and Japan, because they are alive, and vibrant and hard working.
You are becoming lazy, fat, and ripe for a takeover.
How can one country oblige another to collect taxes from them? This means that England has finally found a way to Tax it's American Colonies!
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
I understand that since you are a racist you naturally assumed people from different cultures or skin colors are trouble makers but what is actually meant by trouble maker is members of neonazi groups and religous extremists.
Let's say I live in the US and I run several paysites. I accept memberships from anyone in the world with a PayPal account or a valid credit card. If you can make a payment, you get access to the site, I don't much care where you live.
:(
What (if anything) do I have to do now? Am I supposed to start raising my prices for members from EU countries? Or does the tax/price hike take place on those customers' end? If I don't make some sort of adjustment in price at my sites, do I (as a US resident) have anything to worry about legally in terms of EU subscribers? Or is it the subscribers who have to pay extra?
I'm confused, but I don't want to get put out of business for failure to comply with whatever is going on. Internet taxation, even on a local level, is a global headache - we're growing ever closer to the day when "USA" is the only country option on my paysites and if you aren't from the USA I won't let you make a purchase
"They will have to collect VAT tax from the UE citizens and forward it to the EU"
Smarter US companies will collect VAT and simply keep it. And (a) you won't notice (b) even if you did, there's nothing you'll be able to do with it.
Heh. Such a scam. You guys really are suckers.
But where is the money really going? If we assume for a moment that you have a government who spends their collected taxes wisely (not always true, I'll admit), then that money gets put to good use.
Such taxes will be used to pay for health care (here in the UK we have a nationalised health service, paid for by taxes), transport infrastructure (roads, rail, air etc.), education (again, here in the UK, schooling is paid for by taxes, and university education is mostly paid for by taxes), police, ambulance, fire services etc. etc.
If EU citizens were shopping in the US via the web, because it is cheaper, those taxes wouldn't be being paid, and the services that rely on them would be underfunded.
I can only speak from a UK perspective on this, but while our education, health etc. services are free from many US-citizen's perspectives, they are terribly underfunded. General elections are usually fought on the basis of taxation, and the population votes for the party offering the lowest taxation (a simplification, but it's almost this simple) -- so there is little growth in the amount of money that can be spent on public services.
To put this in perspective, a few months ago I saw a news item announcing good news: NHS patients with a specific serious heart problem had their operation waiting times cut by 6 months: the waiting time for the surgery was now just 18 months. I ask those Americans reading this: would you buy health insurance that had an 18 month waiting list for major heart surgery?
If I was faced with the choice of being able to buy a DVD for £15 rather than £20, or having a health service that actually worked, guess which I'd opt for.
"The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race"---Hans Blix
Free health care?
Sounds like Ford. You can get any color you like as long as it is black...
I know people who have been sitting waiting for surgery for almost two years!
Free my ass!
Including right wing Christian extremists?
Oh, I forgot, they are YOUR government...
As a UK citizen (also a social democracy, at least by US perceptions) I really quite like Switzerland's model (far more democratic than the UK, which is still tied up with hundreds of years worth of elderly legislation and precident).
On the down side, don't they still have conscription in Switzerland?
I am very anti conscription (except in times of war where it comes essential for the survival of citizens of the state (and/or their civil rights), as in the two previous world wars).
Not least because it's horribly inefficient and the resultant conscripts are worse than useless in performing actual modern military duties (which is not just my opinion, but one backed by the military intelligence community, and a topic previously covered by Janes) but also because I don't think the state should arbitrarily order people around (as I believe the state should serve the people, not the other way round).
Unlike JFK I think people should always question "what the state can do for them" rather than ask "What can I do for the state?" (the state should always have justify it's existence and every tax is levies and spends on bureaucracy and every individual it employs or gives money to for any service or goods, or whenever it asks it's citizens to give up their time or put themselves at risk.
Assuming it's still active are there any plans to abolish conscription in Switzerland (as it has been - or is being - in the rest of Europe)?
Unlike my dense-brained nation of nine-year-olds, Europe understands that they don't get clean, safe streets and a decent society for free.
In Switzerland, it is a little different. You arn't just drafted at random. Every able bodied male under gos military training and has to take a "refresher course" every year. All of them are sent home after training with their weapons and gear. This creates for a make shift militia. There is very little ill feelings towards the process and with that in mind, it makes a very effective way to maintain neutrality. No sane person would come up against a willing militia a quarter the size of Switzerland's population.
"You mean you're surrounded by people who want to murder you, you're one of the only relatively wealthy people in a country full of the poor who suffer terribly and you're constantly at war in order to prop up your economy? That's a good metaphor you've got there."
That's the trouble when you can't afford to travel (but, hey, free health care), you rely on local sources of information which usually support what the government wants you to believe.
Don't let me rock your world.
oh those are terrorists? shit, they're so well disguised, I thought they were peace activists. quit making excuses for the sick, sorry, blood-addicted IDF. they're not killing terrorists so much as validating them.
This fellow is clearly in American upper management. Either that or he has a 100% probablility of finding out what how things work here within a maximum of 3 years.
I understand the motivation, but here in New Zealand (like many other countries) the "industry" is often just a distribution chain. I'm paying a premium for my stuff to pass through several someone else's hands. That's why I get stuff ex-US, at 2/3 the price, including 4 day air-freight.
If I could get it locally *produced* then I would, but most of the time I'm looking for something interesting, it's ex-EU or ex-Asia, or ex-US. And now that the EU has done this, I can expect Aussie and NZ to do something similar with GST (Goods and Services Tax).
It just seems anal to me. Can't compete? Tax them! How about local business development and efficieny strategies instead? Nah, that's too hard, and besides, it might even work...
"Including right wing Christian extremists?"
They are, as usual, out of power.
Since you are a racist, I say stand by your convictions and defend them, don't make an arse of yourself to prove the unprovable...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
You probably thought the Rosenbergs were patriotic americans too.
makers.
In the US, this is what the Ku Klux Klan advocates. So, basically, Sweden is populated by the white sheet crowd and other white supremacists.
Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvlee.
"VAT is essential because it taxes consumption of goods and services "
Why would you try to slow consumption? To raise savings rates? That's a silly argument. This doesn't make people save, it simply stunts economic growth since it slows consumption.
Slow consumption = less investment
Less investment = less investment
It also significantly adds to economic downturns, since recession is related primarily to excess capacity. When businesses can build quickly, economies grow quickly leading to more employment and investment leading to more wealth for middle and lower classes. The key to making it work is for governments to allow businesses to fail quickly when they are inefficient or overcapcity. This leads to some setbacks, but in the US, during our recessions, our unemployment is less than the most of europe during a boom time.
Risk = Reward
Consumption Tax = regressive, bad for growth.
No Growth = lower standard of living.
Yeah, so everybody has LESS. Cool. Too bad socialism removes all desire to excel.
We are big and economically powerful enough that major (and minor) American companies *have* to comply with our laws if they want to benefit from our large market.
And if Americans don't like it, don't like us, don't like the way we do things, don't like the EU, guess what? We don't care...
Everyone bitches and moans about how self-centered, ignorant and haughty Americans are when some ignorant clod from the U.S. makes a post *exactly* like yours. Ignorance and xenophobia resides on both sides of the pond and your post is living proof, sir.
35.6% of the voting people accepting the initiative "For a Switzerland without army" on November 26th, 1989, and 21.9% accepting a similar one on December 2nd, 2001, does that sound "little" to you?
...would a post that is 100% wrong and obviously by someone who didn't RTFA get moderated as "Informative" by moderators who also didn't RTFA.
If you buy goods which aren't zero-rated, though, it's more complicated. In general terms, Customs duty is added on the basis of the value of the goods including the cost of shipping and insurance. VAT is then added (17.5% in the UK) on the value of the goods including the duty (yes, you do pay VAT on the customs duty!). The fee from the handling company is between you, the shipper and the vendor, but I think it's part of the terms of service (using the word "service" loosely). You don't get it with goods shipped by post.
There are thresholds below which value duty and VAT aren't charged: on postal imports the limits are £18; or £36 (actually 45 Euro) for gifts (there are rules defining the meaning of "gift"). Just to complicate things, these limits apply to the intrinsic value of the goods, which is the price paid for the goods exclusive of shipping etc.
The effect of that is that the costs associated with buying from abroad cut in quite suddenly and dramatically. I can buy something for, say $25 (about £15.50) plus $11 (£6.80) shipping and handling and pay no import charges at all, but goods costing $30 (£18.75-ish) +s/h will cost me £25.55 (goods + shipping) plus, say £2.55 in duty (depending on the exact nature of the goods, obviously) plus £4.91 VAT (17.5% on £28.10). That's a total of £7.46 in charges, as opposed to nil for goods only slightly cheaper.
Of course, all this applies to physical goods. The article refers to digital goods and services. No-one is going to be paying one penny, or Euro extra in VAT for goods bought from outside the EU because of this.
Disclaimer: I work for HM Customs and Excise, who collect these charges. Until quite recently I specialised in the valuation of imported goods.
War is the only solution. Damned EU
" The others will get caught sooner or later and will face the consequences of their actions."
Yeah, the mighty wrath of the EU on Joe's Sporting Goods from "someplace in the US".
Yeah. I'll bet that scares everybody.
You clearly don't understand how small businessmen think.
Actually Slovenia is not a socialistic country anymore (it was 12 years ago). There is a difference in terms between socialism and social-democracy.
P.S. Poleg tega pa rajÅi povej koliko Åtudentov v primerjavi z zahodnimi državami dokonÄa Åtudij in v kakÅnih finanÄnih problemih so univeze.
You don't actually *work* for a living. You just use all the 'free' services, thereby living off the sweat of the brow of others.
I'd imagine that if you had to pay up to 60% of your income in taxes then you'd be pretty pissed off. But since you seem to think that VAT is all well and good, I'd be willing to bet you don't do much but sit on your fat, euro-trash, ass all day.
Yeah, the EU and China are doing terrible. Apart from being set to become the 2nd and 1st largest economies in the world. Apart from that part, its awful!
>On the down side, don't they still have conscription in Switzerland?
It's not really a down side. The basic training at the age of 21 certainly wasn't a good time and almost every young man hates it.
But after that you only have to serve 150 days in two-week courses annualy or three-week courses every two years.
This means that at the age of about 40 you are all done with the army. The courses themselves are rather relaxed (depends on the unit i guess) and most people don't really care.
There are always discussions about abolishing conscription. There have been votings on that issue but i think that people generally don't like the idea of a poorly defended country.
The army is shrinking dramaticaly however. During the cold war, Switzerland had an army of 400'000, which is quite big for a 7 Mio. country. With such a big army, Switzerland could be defended area-wide.
In the recent years, the army was reformed to a smaller, technically more sophisticated and mobile army. My unit for example is not sitting in bunkers along the border anymore but operates with highly computerized and mobile equipment now.
One clear advantage of conscription might be that you will get people from all social levels into the army. That includes technicians and academics which are useful for operating the increasingly complex military equipment.
Hrshgn
Is it really so bad? I mean, how many students will finish their study and what about their financial problems?
P.S. I don't really understand Slovenian, but being from two-letters-difference-in-country-name, I somehow managed to read it.
Eh? My country's had a stable democracy for longer than yours has existed!
We Americans simply don't care about the EU, we don't spend out days wishing we were Europeans, we don't envy the EU, we are not always comparing ourselves to Europeans, we don't think we have a lot to learn from Europe. Europe is on the periphery of our consciousness.
We organise things (like health care) the way we like them, and we organise things (like taxes) the way we like them.
We are big and economically powerful enough that major (and minor) European companies *have* to comply with our laws if they want to benefit from our large market.
And if Europeanss don't like it, don't like us, don't like the way we do things, don't like the US, guess what? We don't care...
No, he has not been booted out. It is just that they are not extremists in any way.
If EU citizens don't think they are getting enough value for their VAT, they can vote for someone else in their parliament.
Nobody has ever made a valid argument why a person should be exempt from a VAT or sales tax simply because they make their purchase on-line. It has always been a question of how much effort governments could reasonably impose on merchants to calculate and impose the tax on their behalf.
This remains true for US sales tax, which varies not only state by state, but count-by-county and city-by-city. And its not only the rates, its which items are covered at what rate.
But it will happen eventually. In this case the wonders of technology will eventually make even the most complex tax code imaginable a simple web service that can be queried. You certainly can't claim to be lacking an Internet connection if you're selling via the Internet, now can you?
Stockholm, Sweden.
55%, 25%.
Health care is expensive and notoriously bad (you have to wait several years for some ops), and don't get me started about the streets, either.
Its usually stuff under £25 that customs will ignore - so if those cosmetics had "trickled" through one item at a time, she probably wouldn't have had to pay any VAT.
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
Don't get me wrong, as a Gadget freak, I buy LOTS of products designed/created in Japan. I find East Asian cultures fascinating to study, and if my red-neck ass takes a trip outside of North America, it will be to Asia.
That said, I don't buy that Japan's militaristic culture has changed (anymore than the Prussian culture has changed in Germany, just the outlet), just adapted. The Japanese businessmen are known for ruthless dealings with outsiders, despite a consensus driven culture internally.
In the 80s, Japan was threatening to overtake the US economy. It's the second largest economy now, and if you recall the Japan-bashing in the early 90s recession, people thought that it would become the largest economy withing 15 years.
Japan expects to defeat the US eventually, but they keep quiet.
The bravado that the Americans display is off-putting to most. The bravado displayed by Europeans is silly and absurd, given Europes collapse over the past 100 years (remember, they used to run the world, now they run expensive, over-priced, inadequate health care systems), it's bizarre.
East Asian cultures have a longer outlook than Western cultures, and are less individualistic, which results in a different mindset. While the Japanese business leaders may be slowly plotting to take over the world, the average Japanese person doesn't feel the need to be rude and obnoxious to the average American. It's a different culture, and it lets the US and Japan be close friends at a government level. The Americans want to act like they run the world, and Japan is happy to let the Americans feel that way. None of the Asian leaders feel the needs to make rude and derogatory remarks towards our leadership the way that the Europeans do. Rather then suffering from an inferiority complex, they simply focus on the goal.
Don't get me started on the French... Cowardly monkeys...
Alex
Yes. Sweden, according to that Swede, is a paradise because they have kept "people" from inferior mongrel races out.
I wonder if that Swede is a troll. Does white supremacism really rule there? Acceptance of socialism is bad enough.
They're not collecting it on each and every U.S. citizen. They're collecting it on deals done in their country. Try to keep up. Failing that, read the f...ya know.
Then I remembered: no VAT on books in the UK. Since almost all my US-based online spending has been on US editions of books not published/out of print in the UK, I started smiling again.
...of course, the occasional region one DVD has wound up in the book parcel, in spite of them (supposedly) not being playable here.
For instance, I know I don't pay anything towards machines for killing.
Really? Sweden does not have an Air Force? A Navy? An Army? Does not Sweden produce a very capable set of fighter jets, SAABs?
Does not Sweden still cling to the archaic concept of a draft ?
Are Swedish military personnel not currently deployed to such places as Afghanistan and Kosovo?
Thus in Sweden, I can live almost as well by not working as working.
IOW, an apparently otherwise intelligent young male, can live as a leech on the ass of everyone else, contributing nada. And brag about it.
The only reason you don't pay anything towards a military is because you don't have a job, and thus pay no taxes.
Yeah...that sounds like my kind of paradise.
I get free medical care.
"Free", only because you are a leech with no job, and pay no taxes.
And my country is free of racial tension because we have strictly limited immigration from trouble makers.
IOW...instead of allowing immigration, and possibly helping some poor slob who wants a better life, you selfishly keep your 'paradise' for yourselves. Must maintain that Nordic racial purity. Keep out anyone you don't like the looks of.
How amusing. I am glad to see that New Jersey has so much in common with it's namesake! Makes a native proud of his grifting heritage.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
It's interesting to think that in the future when online shopping is the primary method for purchasing goods and services, EU companies will relocate their businesses to the lowest VAT rated country to stay competitve. This can already be seen happening in Luxembourg.
Perhaps that will encourage EU governments to drop VAT rates to compete with the likes of Luxembourg.
Or more likely bring up the ugly subject of tax harmonistion between member states.
Can U.S. Internet taxation be far behind if we have to start collecting and reporting 15 different VAT taxes?
Not 15 different rates, just a single rate. The VAT rate is uniform across the EU at 17.5%.
Al.The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
We thought it was going to be Microsoft and SCO that would destroy internet commerce. Instead, it'll be governments imposing an infinite number of impossibly tax laws.
Seriously, though... before Microsoft jumps on this, someone needs to write an open source tool which manages tax information so that people can integrate it into their web sites.
Sometimes it's reassuring to know the United States doesn't have a monopoly on government stupidity or greed.
:)
Or maybe it's not... I guess I'm running out of alternative places to live. =)
Anyone for founding a new country?
Why should Americans pay for the EU? Screw the EU and every government who steals our money by making us pay taxes. :) Lucky me.
And I'm guessing this won't apply to Canadian companies?
Because folks in the EU understand there's no such thing as free lunch.
Yes I've read a little about the training and it's purpose, (and that effectively every household in Switzerland has a gun, and that the men are trained in it's use) though I admit to not really knowing much about it.
:)
I think a short period of training is not objectionable and does serve the purpose it's intended to (by providing a cheap, yet effective defense force, where each citizen is empowered to defend themselves against invaders, or in theory against a rogue Swiss government), how long does this training (and the referesher course) last though? (I'm genuinely curious
I think that is relevent as the exercise has has surely got to be questionable given the size of of the country and it's defensive capabilties (as the UK, French, Italian, German, Japanese, Austrialian armies (for example) have all individually certainly enough reasources to invade regardless of the presence of a large militia, given their superior equpiment and training [for example, armed militia infantry are no match for arial bombardment, anti personel vehicles, tanks, gunships and chemical agents (including legal chemical agents)]).
While the German forces largely ignored Switzerland due to it's nutrality, had they won the first or second world war I don't think any would be able to doubt that the Swiss would have been in no position to bargin for continued independance or autonomy (for the Axis would have simply have taken out and shot any who resisted, and threatend to execute familes of any resistance, to deter opposition). I mention this purely as an example of why I don't belive the system really has much merit in providing a useful defence force.
I also have very strong issues with only men being forced to do this training, as this is something that makes little sense (as the saying goes "Colt makes all men equal", my implication here being that women are just as capable in being trained in firearms as men).
To me, this is the singularly most odd aspect of behaviour that Swiss culture exhibits (I think the reason I find it particularly odd is the Swiss are known for their even handedness and empowerment of their citizens). I keep hearing that the Swiss don't mind too, that just makes it seem even more bizzare to me! I also find it utterly distasteful that the Swiss state does not offically recognise conscientious objection - which is an extreme act of oppression in my book (and is in direct contravention of the UN Commission for Human Rights, which states that it's a legitimate position for any individual to take), it's also quite ironic given the Swiss attitute to nutrality.
Personally, I would refuse to do it for the reasons outlined above (and be willing to go to jail indenfinately to resist, if I was unable to leave the country). I'd also seek citizenship of another country and return my right to Swiss citizenship in protest.
UK citizens would balk at such an idea and riot in the street (I can just imagine - with some amusement - the millions that turned out to protest against the war in Iraq turning up in the streets of London again, but this time rioting en mass, ala the poll tax riots, ah in the crowded, twisty, difficult-to-defend streets of London that would be a sight!).
It's also an interesting an conflict with US world view because this is the very reason many American's (including the NRA) continue to demand the right to own guns (to prevent the citizens from being bullied by the government).
I don't think continental Europe generally has nearly as much concept as the rights of citizens over the rights of the state as the UK, or more vividly, newer states such as the US, Australia & New Zeland (the US being the keenest). NB: I'm not refering to 'rights of citizens' when I say this, but rather just 'rights of citizens in preference to rights of the state'.
Please don't think I'm attacking Switzerland, I'm just amazed at the seeming difference in cultural attidute of what I belive is an otherwise superb country (that has many policies I think we would do very well to adopt ourselves).
Move your company to Canada where it won't affect your loyal customers.
-- Leeeter than leet
I'll give you a hint:
A French judge required Yahoo! from blocking access by French citizens to online auctions involving Nazi memorabilia, following a lawsuit by a Jewish university students' group.
Although I don't know the exact status of the case to date, at the time Yahoo! duly complied after some initial wrangling.
The key bit of information in all this will come when you do a whois lookup on 'yahoo.fr'.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
... is that EU rules say that VAT should be paid in the land of the buyer, not the seller. This leads to very big problems for SMEs that have to hire people they can't afford in order to sell outside their nations borders.
This is really really bad... the true importance of the euro will never really show it self until this is fixed.
I have nothing against VAT, it just have to be paied in the land of the seller, not the buyer.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
As an EU consumer, this may seem to be a bad thing since it prevents me from saving money by buying from abroad.
As an EU producer, this is a good thing as it creates a level playing field for both foreign and domestic suppliers.
As an EU citizen, this is a good thing as it closes a market-distorting loophole whilst at the same time securing tax revenues that are essential for sustainable public-sector financing. I rather not go the US route of running up a massive and inevitably ruinous public debt.
In conclusion, this is on balance a positive developent.
35.6% of the voting people accepting the initiative "For a Switzerland without army" on November 26th, 1989, and 21.9% accepting a similar one on December 2nd, 2001, does that sound "little" to you?
That's very interesting.
I wonder if it will change dramatically (i.e. if dissent will increase) now that European neigbours are disbanding/abolishing conscription (I'm thinking of young men looking over their shoulders and seeing them men in other countries don't have to and asking 'Why do we have to do this again?').
I hear the Germans are having some serious logistical problems with it because they offer conscripted social service as an alternative to military serivice and they simply don't have enough civil servants to cover the loss of man power (and seeing the current much less than stellar state of the German economy, I can't see tax revenues being able to cover the recuritment shortfall any time soon).
To verify this, quoted from Europemedia: "From the first of next month, a new EU directive will be enacted, forcing all internet companies to impose VAT (value-added tax) on all digital sales. This amounts to a tariff of between 15 and 25 per cent on items such as software or music downloads, any transactions as part of online auctions and subscriptions to internet service providers, sold over the internet anywhere within the European Union."
In other words, the tax is on services and digital products sold to EU citizens on the Internet. It's still annoying (and hellish for small shareware shops to deal with!) but at least it doesn't affect the cost of physical goods... yet.
And in the case of online auctions, this means that the EU will tax the service eBay provides, not the actual product supplied from seller to buyer.
Jouni
Jouni Mannonen | Game Designer, Consultant
"I would suggest that it indicates that you may have what many people consider to be extreme right-wing Christian views?"
No, I do not. I'm measuring from the middle, not from the extreme left where anyone to the right of Ted Kennedy is an extremist.
"Anyone that thinks that Ashcroft, for example, is not a confirmed extremist has lost the plot..."
Ashcroft, like half of the public, is against abortion. The demagogues used this fact as a big part of their argument against his confirmation (i.e., anyone nominated to a position of power has to be strongly in favor of abortion).
Yet, Janet Reno let clinic bomber Rudolph run free. Ironic that he is caught on the watch of Ashcroft.
There are two sides to this: first, sales tax is a flat tax, which is, compared to income tax with a standard deduction and sliding scale, disproportionately felt by the poor. The rich in the US (Forbes et al) have been clamoring for a flat tax for years, and I wonder why! So, ultimately, a sales tax is unfair to the poor. Granted, grocery food is usually exempted (don't know of any states where it's not) but the poor need more than groceries.
On the other hand, income tax is easier to play games with loopholes and crap, so God knows what tax the rich really pay on income.
Of course, the one I really want answered: why don't the rich have to pay social security tax on their investment earnings? And why is that payroll tax a flat tax? Bunch of bullshit, if you ask me. I'd like to see THAT changed before the flat tax. If I work hard at a job, I pay a higher tax rate than some rich asshole doing nothing making investment income thanks to the FICA tax.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
2 corrections:
A: It's not the VAT that pays for our health care system. It's some taxe the employe pays.
B: If an American bought somthin in a EU country he'd be wise enough to take the receipt with him, talk to the customs when leaving the EU an get all the taxes he paid for whatever back.
There are some forms to fill out and stuff, but he will get it back!
That of course not true for consumption in the EU (food, Hotel rates,...) but certainly for any goods he/she takes back to the US.
I'm from Austria. We got tons of guests at our place doing so all the time.
As a UK resident, I always buy anything of considerable value over the web from the US -- saved a fortune over the years, mostly in lower prices rather than avoiding taxes. I have never fully understood the pattern on what gets taxed as it enters the UK and what doesn't (and of course VAT is only one of the charges those wacky brits will levy on a package if they don't like it).
Anyway, since I regularly make net purchases of almost $1000 or so, does this mean it's now worth while to fly to, say, Estonia (low taxes, few treaties), order from the USA via the web, and then revisit now and then to pick my stuff up and take it into the UK as luggage?
Because that would be a serious waste of the world's resources. You know how many people travel hundreds of miles in the EU every day so they can buy cheap wine and so on outside the UK? Many, many people, many journeys, many cars and boats, much actual wealth being used up as a result of these wacky rules.
But hey, that's what complacent, degenerate societies are for!
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
I'm actually working on a project at my company to retrofit our in house ecomm system to add this tax for applicable orders. Kind of a pain when you've got a system written 10 years ago that can barely handle sales tax.
We expect our European EComm sales to drop. We've got European distributors, but they, no doubt, lost a bit of business to our ecomm site because they could get the software without VAT. I wonder if we'll still see the same overall volume or if they'll just stop buying all together....
Sorry to embarrass you but your "1337 math skills" aren't very "1337". The figure is £17.63, as I originally stated.
£15.00 * 1.175 = £17.63 (after rounding up the 0.5 pence)
Ie, you are charged 17.5 percent on top of the untaxed price. Or, put another way, for every pound you spend, you have to pay another 17.5 pence in VAT.
15 * 17.5 = 262.5
So, if you spend $15.00 exclusive of VAT, you have to pay 262.5 pence, or £2.625 in VAT. Since we no longer have half pennies, this rounds up to £2.63.
There's an error in your logic. To get from the VAT exclusive price to VAT inclusive one, you have to multiply by 1.175. To get from the VAT inclusive price to the VAT exclusive one, you have to divide by 1.175. Or put another way:
x = 1.175 * y
where x is the VAT inclusive price and y is the VAT exclusive price.
What you've assumed, which is that 17.5 percent of the VAT inclusive price is the VAT component is completely wrong. The actual figure (if you really want to look at it that way) is 0.175/1.175, which is a tad under 14.9 percent of the final price you pay.
Check it out elsewhere if you don't believe me.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Did anyone tell Congress that their job of 'Making the Laws' has just been assimilated by the E.U.?
I believe that this is a violation of the Monroe Doctorine, therefore the E.U. should be fined one U.S. Dollar; To be paid in U.S. currency, of course.
MuHaHaHaHa.
Big words when talking about a country that has fallen to war and socialist tendencies quite a few times.
As a citizen of Indiana I have another take on this. Hoosiers are required by law to keep track of and report any tax on out-of-state purchases by mail, phone, or Internet. So we wind up paying anyway, *and* we have to do the figuring ourselves instead of having merchants' IS infrastructure do it for us. This easily *doubles* the hassle-factor at income-tax time.
If the situation Over There is similar, then honest EU citizens weren't saving any money and now their paperwork burden will be reduced.
Seems to me that there was some issue about the people in America being taxed by a European nation, without the benefit of representation.
"European Union of 15 countries has recently required that all U.S. companies with web sales..."
How can a European country compell a US company to do anything, unless our own Gov't is in some sort of collusion?
I guess this means that we need One tax system, One government, maybe Nine or so good folks to catch people who want to run off with the ring...
___________________________________
the spiders are coming
when she ordered a whole load of cosmetics from a supplier in Australia, ... then got hit with an extra tax bill running to several figures when the stuff arrived.
When did Tammy Fae Baker move to the UK?
does the USA bend over to other countries' whims?
I've decided that effective today, all of you American citizens must pay to me a 20% tax on the value of my time in composing this message. Sweet, now the cash should start rolling in!
Seriously, the EU has no jurisdiction elsewhere in the world, so why should anyone care about doing its work for it?
I am surprised that none of the top-moderated comments have addressed this, and unless I missed it in the article there was nothing there either (beyond an AOL spokesperson convincingly mumbling that "not doing it just really isn't an option").
-ben
myselfmusic
It would be more efficient to have only a single source of taxes -- more efficient for the tax collector and more efficient for the tax evader.
It is a pain to have income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and the whole list; but there is the benefit that no one will be likely to evade them all. If the only taxes were income taxes, you'd just have to evade that and you'd have it made.
-- Pot is safer than Beer
Don't mind paying the VAT if they abolish the Customs Duty but I that's never going to happen. Greedy scum.
Why would you want to give your hard earned money to a government?
I dunno, i kinda like having roads, a postal system (which doesn't get paid for by taxes..), national and local parks, etc.
And sorry Mr. or Ms. EU Citizen, your website subscription now costs 15% to 25% more, starting July 1. Hope you like this added value.
Nope. You don't have to pay EU VAT on a service that is rendered in the US (such as a website subscription). You DO have to pay VAT on goods imported into the EU, even if those goods lack material manifestation.
Of course, the line between goods and service can be difficult to draw at times.
Does anyone out there (current level 5 posters havn't had this info) have a SITE we can go to, to learn the specifics of this?
Since we're a very very small company we won't be putting up any "headquarters" in europe.
Who do we pay? How frequently do we pay? What laws do we need to follow in terms of documentation? How long do we need to hold onto records? Where to we go to find out if tax rates have been changed, or even what they are?
It's one thing to demand a VAT... it's another thing entirely to make sure we get the proper information in order to implement it correctly.
You have pointed out a flaw in the inheritance tax, but that isn't necessarily evidence that it should be scrapped, but evidence that it should be made better.
The problem that inheritance taxes are designed to solve is the problem that capital gains are not taxed until capital is sold. If someone dies before they have sold capital, the gains will go untaxed when inherited.
Canada has no inheritance tax; instead all of a person's assets are considered to be sold at the time of death, and the last tax form filled out for that person might have a huge amount of capital gains taxes owing (unless it is sheltered in a trust fund or something). This is not a very fair system, since the capital gains are taxed at the highest marginal rate, all in one year. An inheritance tax might be fairer.
Yes, inheritance taxes cause some double taxation and are hard on some small businessmen. But without inheritance taxes, there is a huge problem of not taxing capital gains on inherited capital. You've got to weigh the two problems to determine which is less fair; but I'd wager that not taxing inherited capital gains is a lot more unfair.
-- Pot is safer than Beer
Also, Bush could drink those guys under the table and then fuck their wives with his enormous penis. Truly an American Alpha Male.
VAT is added at every stage of sale (and deducted). The tax is charged on the value added on every stage in the sales & manufacture.
So if you buy half-finished widgets for $.50 and sell it for $1.00, the VAT is charged on the value you added (i.e. $.50).
Now to the consumer, they think of it as a sales tax, but its not.
At least for now, the strong Euro and weak dollar will ensure that Europeans will be buying a lot of US goods. A requirement such as the one that you propose would amuse me greatly, since the additional state tax+overhead would most likely still leave a significant price gap in favor of buying fungibles from the US. So, the US gets more Euros, sells more goods to Europe and the rest of the world, deprives European businesses of sales, wins the trade war, retaliates against the obnoxious VAT, and gets front row seats when the EU's tenuous sovereignty breaks down in the subsequent downturn in European economies. LOL.
J.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
I travelled as an American in England/Wales/Scotland... the people are wonderful to Americans there. Couldn't have had a nicer time.
Ireland... Wonderful people. I felt very much at home in Ireland.
Same in Germany (this was pre-unification). The Germans are polite, try to help you out as much as you can. Have great food.
So the idea that Europeans as a continent dislike Americans is PR.
People are people, and when you're honest and genuine, they'll like you.
Well, the ordering went without a hitch, the movie got shipped out and sent to Bangkok, Thailand. I had put my name instead of the girl's name as the recipient, but it was her address.
Well, the people at the post office wanted 10 dollars in addition to what I had already paid. So, here we have an already overpriced anime movie, going to a country famous for its bootleg market, being marked-up by ten extra dollars when it gets there.
I wasn't sure whether it was a legitimate tax or just a bribe for the postal official, but then I thought, "What's the difference?"
On the other hand, she really enjoyed the video, so mission accomplished in that respect. I consider the experiment inconclusive. Yes, I could buy something from Amazon in Thailand if I really wanted to, but if I were living in Thailand I would have to learn to make due with less income than I have in the United States. So, I can't think of a situation where it would make sense to do so.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
The Chinese in particular have a long view. And why not, they've survived as a country for thousands of years. To them, there are no outcomes, simply trends to manage.
Anyway, my point is that the thing that is collapsing these old barriers of encirclement and diplomacy is international culture.
What I mean is, up until 50 years ago, countries were very isoltated by geography. You *read* about China or Germany or Russia in Social Studies, but you didn't know much about them (nor they about you).
But instantaneous communication along with the rise of consumerism has place the US in the forefront just as much as our military and science ; in fact, I believe all are related to each other.
The fact that American culture has essentially taken over the world (fashion, entertainment, trends, music) is far more powerful than our military reach.
I was struck by an interview on NPR during the Iraq war a few months ago. One of the NPR reporters was talking to a Baathist party leader, and he was spitting the usual "US will die" kind of rhetoric. After the camera was off, he told the reporter "My son is graduating from UCLA this spring; I hope he does well".
What does that tell you about the real state of world affairs? The power of culture is formidable, and a "weapon" that has no equal in history as far as I can tell.
Why do you think the French hate Americans? Culture. If a country looks just like America, if its people think like Americans, then they are surely as conquored as if we had armies of millions to pacify. But its better, because people *want* to become part of the American culture.
People will deny it, but in visiting Europe over the past few decades, its true. Travelling to Western Europe is little different that travelling to a different part of the US. And it isn't the US that has changed.
"Why do they hate her so?"
I don't hate her, but I think people who admire her are stupid.
I work with a porn site; starting July 1, US residents will pay $19.95, EU residents will pay $29.95. We have to charge more than the EU tax to cover the administration costs of sorting out 15 different tax zones.
And we'll certainly make it clear to EU residents *why* they're paying 50% more than people who live in the US. On the bright side, they won't really have a choice of going somewhere else, as any remotely major competitor of ours will also be charging more.
My petty side hopes that the US passes a law that EU internet companies have to collect state and local sales tax for the location where US buyers are. I reckon there are about 45,000 different local sales taxes in the US. The administrative costs alone would basically force EU companies to just not sell to US residents.
Cheers
-b
"I'm a CEO of a European country"
/. :-)
You mean like, you're a prime minister?
Cool, I didn't know we had such important people here in
Anyways, you're right about people outside the EU not having to pay VAT.
no, they were spies. tried too quickly, albeit fairly. I oppose the death penalty, but if there is to be one, they are the proper candidates. get back in your bulldozer, there are palestinians to kill and human rights to crush.
The purpose of the state is to do what is best for the citizenry as a whole. Thus, policies may be applied to you that you find distasteful, but are good for the country. If you do your part as a citizen, your country will prosper. If you are always looking for what serves you best and be damned to the rest of the country, your country will degenerate, which makes it worse for you anyway. So you see, your greediness works against you.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. --Edmund Burke
How is Mexico not empty yet??
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. --Edmund Burke
(knock knock knock! Opens door)
You: Why, who are you guys?
Guests: Well, Sir, we are the Royal Police from Great Britton. We are here to collect sales tax that you failed to collect on your website.
You: But this is California, not England.
Guests: Does not matter, we are here to collect.
You: I refuse to pay.
Guests: I am sorry, but we have to arrest you and take you to England....
Table-ized A.I.
Yeah! Must be great to shell out something around 50% of your hard earned money so that some sex addict can get laid because his shrink says it will keep him from raping someone. Great system they got over there, huh?
Not to mention your money paying for the medical insurance that pays for an operation to have someones gender changed.
Well, for starters, any of 'em living in California who own a house they bought before the boom :)
> Why the hell do Americans always think that the class they actually belong to is several notches higher than it really is? Maybe 5% of the population save that much. Given that many/most Americans get into heavy debt (mortgages, credit cards, etc), I would say that it is
pretty fucking repugnant that you're asking those of us who do manage our incomes wisely to subsidize the spend-and-consume binging of those who don't.
> Unless you earn a ton of money but live in a shitty house and drive a shitty car and have your kids go to a community college, you simply aren't going to save much money.
But ain't y'all high-taxin' granola-munchin' sorta folks s'posed to be all fer that "sustainability" and against "consumerism" stuff anyways? :)
OK, that last bit of trollbait was uncalled for. But in all seriousness, what you describe is exactly how Joe Sixpack drags himself out of the gutter and ends up with seven digits in his bank. Most millionaires today are first-generation millionaires. Read the (solidly apolitical, unlike my /. rantings!) book "The Millionaire Next Door" for insights on why. (Or just skim some reviews or the first chapter.)
> unlikely that anyone except very rich people save that much cash. In fact, most of the middle class probably spends all of what it earns.
And if it weren't paying 40% marginal income tax (6.5% SS, 1.65% Medicare, 25% Federal, 9.3% Kalifornia, Single filer, anywhere from $40-80K), maybe they'd be able to afford a home :)
Comes down to equality of opportunity again. Do I have a megabuck? Nope. Will I have a megabuck? At these tax levels, probably not. Do I want to have a megabuck? You betcha. Will I be pissed off if I work my ass off, get that megabuck, only to have half of it taken away from my heirs (be they my spawn or a favored charitable organization) at death? Doubly so.
The $KILOBUCKS (and hopefully $MEGABUCK) in my bank account are mine, I earned them, so I get to say what happens to them. The $GIGABUCKS (and hopefully $KILOBUCKS :) in Bill Gates' bank account are not mine, I didn't earn them, so I don't get to say what happens to them. What part of "private property" is so hard for these people understand?
It would make more sense to have any taxes collected by the seller's state or country of origin, not the buyer's. Not only is it much easier for companies to keep track of that way, but you may also see companies moving their businesses to states with lower sales tax rates, which in turn may cause states to compete with each other to reduce their sales taxes!
:-P
Of course, that's why such a scenario will never happen.
There is no way in hell I have the time or resources to keep track of VAT rates for fifteen different countries. It's possible that if I did a lot of business with EU states that I would have no choice, but for the smattering of EU customers that I have, I'm not going to bother with it. As far as I'm concerned, any transaction conducted with me here in the United States is taking place within in the United States and is subject to US laws. If I were buying something from Europe, I would operate under the reverse assumption and pay the local taxes -- which I presume would be collected by the seller and included in the price.
Provided there's no actual enforcement, I plan to ignore this. If I get a notice from an EU tax agency that I need to pay up or face extradition on tax evasion charges, I will cut a final check to the Europeans and not deal with them in the future.
This is not, BTW, some flag-waving anti-European rant on my part -- I like the EU a good deal better than my own country -- but from a business standpoint, it isn't worth the hassle to me. I'm not sure this is such a hot idea anyway. I'm not viscerally opposed to sales taxes on net sales -- it would help curb the obliteration of thousands of local businesses by giants like Amazon -- but it ought to be collected by the seller and the seller's government. For the seller to have to keep track of the buyers' governments and their innumerable laws is an unreasonable burden on trade. Giant corporations have the resources to deal with that sort of thing; small businesses do not.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
These governments have lame taxing methods. If you are taxed for selling something should that not be the tax in your current jursidiction? So why are US companies paying taxes to the EU? Can we say Moffia here?
Stupid British. Do they not remember the tea party we threw them? I guess everyone could just stop doing business with EU states.
We pay now, with extra admin charges when they cross the border. Those things will get cheaper.
Downloads will get more expensive, but they will move offshore soon I am prety sure.
There is a good market in hosting in the same locations as offer offline financial services; Panama, Caymans, South Pacific...
Also low VAT countries like Switzerland (6%)
The swiss for whatever reason were considered the most deadly mercenaries/army in europe until 1847. And since Europeans have such long memories, I would expect that they are still afraid.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
"If I, a European Citizen, buy a product from your US based company, then that's a trade. Your company is trading in the EU."
I see it as you came to the USA to buy something.
USA base website
USA based vendor
Isn't it interesting how often americans and europeans feel the need to piss on each other when discussing politics? Ditto for americans and middle easterners. Does it have to be that way? Was it ever not? It's pretty sad if you ask me.
I am an american living in Washington D.C., my wife is from Iran, my boss is from Norway, one of the junior engineers that I mentor at my company is from France, and one of the other senior engineers is from Taiwan. I am proud to know all of them.
I've looked at buying stuff from the US. But is goes like this:
1. Buy&Ship - no problem
2. If less than 200NOK without shipping - less than $30, one DVD will pass but not more, it's free. Otherwise:
3. Get notification that package has arrived at customs. Either let the Postal Office do it (+$20) or do the paperwork myself (+$10).
4. Pay VAT (+24%) + fees.
5. Wait another week.
6. Recieve notification the package is at the post office.
7. Pick it up.
With the new system:
1. Buy and ship at total price.
2. Recieve notification the package is at the post office.
3. Pick it up.
I can't say I really care about the absolute cost savings - what I'd really like to have is the DVDs and stuff that hasn't been released in Europe, stuff like TV series and such, without being held up in customs. Screw region coding, DeCSS is legal here (at least until the court says otherwise, won first round) and if so, so is circumventing RCA-2 firmware protection.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Basically this is a tax on large multimational corporations. So that makes small companies more competitive. What's not to like?
AOL, eBay, etc have to comply because they have operations in the EU. Small companies, located entirely in the US can safely ignore anything the EU says because their laws don't leave their borders any more than a US law can apply to a company in the EU.
This is just a larger version of the fun we get inside the US with sales tax. Buy from a small outfit and you don't pay sales tax unless you are unlucky enough to be in the same state. Which, btw, is why so many mailorder/online retailers avoid establishing operations in high population states.
Democrat delenda est
Really? Sweden does not have an Air Force? A Navy? An Army? Does not Sweden produce a very capable set of fighter jets, SAABs?
Well............they *do* make one hell of a pocket knife....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
1) all EU based retailer or ISP *DO PAY* this VAT. Only US based company until now did not pay it, more or less illegaly. 2) This introduce a competitive disadvantage for the local economy. In reality this is not "selfish" of the EU, just MAKING THE LAW APPLY TO EVERYBODY. Get off your horse and make real research next time. Why the parent is modded insightfull is beyond me. As for collecting VAT for all state, well this is the price for making buisness with those country. Do not like it ? Go away from those country. If you are still making buisness with all those after the VAT is there, this is because the administrative nightmare you are making MONEY, which is the *only* reason you started making buisness to begin with...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I'm Eurotrash. I live in a bubble. A bubble created by 50 years of American military power. And though this lets my government spend money on welfare programs that it should be using towards maintaining an effective military, I'm secretly resentful. I feel emasculated. I feel weak. And so I pretend that power no longer matters in the world. That the UN is an effective and honest institution. And whenever reality intrudes on this illusion, and it takes American power to fix problems in my own backyard, I will maintain my sense of moral superiority by saying "it takes a tough man to win a war, but it takes an even tougher one to do the peacekeeping."
Why can't we all just be happy and stop throwing sh*t at each other. I mean, you like your country...gooood for you. Really.
I do like my country (germany, btw). And while I see many wrongs nowadays, I'm quite happy about where I live and what it looks like here.
I do like things like free health care (in a reasonable and affordable implementation). I do like strong employee-protection and think it should be 'work to live' and not the other way round. 'Human-captial' is one of the buzz words I find disgusting.
So, I'm indeed a bit on the socialist side and this is per-se nothing evil. As is your side of unregulated capitalism (although I strongly disagree with that kind of policy).
And when you rant about the EU, don't forget that there hasn't been a war within western europe for almost 60 years. Nowadays, countries that tried to eradicate each other from the landmap live together peacefully, share a common currency and, if all goes right, act as one on the international scenery.
I do indeed favor the european integration. I think the idea is wonderful, inspiring. There are wrong-goings, everything is way too much centralized for my taste (I come from a federal organized country, which has been so for several centuries except the Third Reich time), too undemocratic in some way. But the idea is good.
And if the EU throws its weight to impose some things on U.S. companies, then I have nothing against this. The US does this as well (or why do you think does almost every majorgerman company its accounting according to german/eu *and* U.S. standards, for example).
Jealousy, as you say, has little to do with all this. If the EU stands up in the world, it does so not because it wants to smack the U.S. into the face and become more like it, but because it thinks its right and fits its needs. Just as the U.S. does every day.
"Rights are for everbody. Don't do anything you don't want to allow anybody else."
Historically things have to get pretty damn bad before public outcry changes them. The complexity of taxation is one of those issues that I believe will eventually get a final straw laid on top of it and things will change. But it's probably nowhere near the breaking point yet, and the tax wizards in various governments have only begun to explore the virgin territory of the Internet. To some of them it probably looks like the California gold rush.
My personal tax rant:
There should be a single federal retail sales tax and NO OTHER TAXES WHATSOEVER. Outlaw income tax, business tax, property tax, interstate trucking tax, zero-gravity butt-wiping tax etc, etc, and simplify it with one tax on retail sales. In the United States this would be about 20%. To make it non-regressive, every head of household would get a flat dollar amount refunded each year, equal to the sales tax rate times whatever the government says is poverty income level, with an allowance per dependent like the income tax system has now. That way poor people, who presumably spend all their income, would pay zero tax, and the rate would ramp up gradually and automatically depending on how much you consume. In other words, the exact opposite of the flat income tax that has been proposed over and over.
The inner beauty of this scheme is that it eliminates all the hidden taxes the public now pays that are built into the price of everything, and eliminates the use of the tax system by lawmakers to create paybacks for their sponsors. They would have only 3 numbers to manipulate: the tax percentage, the refund amount and the dependent allowance, and every change would be plainly visible to everybody.
No bizarre deductions, no need for a 2000-page federal tax code or for the current 105,000 IRS employees who enforce it, not to mention the army of accountants, clerks, lawyers, consultants, and lobbyists whose living is based entirely on the complexity of the tax system.
Of course a single-tax system assumes there is a single government, or at least cooperation among governments.
Hm. Isn't Sweden the most immigration-friendly country in North Europe? Both Denmark and Norway has strict rules. Iceland - not easy to get there as a refugee. Finland - I don't know about how their policies are. h
Well............they *do* make one hell of a pocket knife....
You're thinking of Switzerland, maybe?
A little background check I ran on the article showed up something, that did not seem to come up in the discussion. The tax will only be levied on services and NOT on products. This means that web site subscriptions will go up eBay fees will be taxed but Amazon orders will remain tax free (unless your package gets intercepted by those pesky customs officials)
---- Only the boring get bored.
It is funny that when EU companies can't compete that soon there are new "directives" and "regulations" to level the playing field.
There have been many posts about AOL having an "unfair" advantage because AOL was not required to collect VAT for their dial-up service. Of course what most posters don't know is that AOL was *much more expensive* than the local providers in that market that were complaining the loudest. That's right, the local providers were charging *less* and still couldn't compete with AOL at a higher price point. So much for that *huge* price advantage that AOL supposedly had because they didn't charge VAT!
Of course these new laws have to be balanced in favor of EU companies so they can "level the playing field". US companies have to comply with *every* VAT regulation of all 15 EU member states while EU companies only need to comply with *one*. That means 15 different definitions of taxable goods and services, 15 different auditing bodies, and 15 different VAT rates. Can anybody tell me if a web hosting provider is a good or service? Is that taxable in Germany? What about France?
And don't guess wrong because the new favorite pastime of EU tax authorities is going to be auditing US companies. Most people don't know that there isn't a single EU country outside the UK that participates in the AVS (address verification system) for credit cards. Their own banking privacy laws don't allow it. Didn't collect VAT on that credit card because the user said they were in South America? Too bad, because we are still going to hit you with VAT and penalties. You should have known better!
And of course nobody in the EU mentions that US companies will be required to remit 2-4% *more* than the amount they actually collect in VAT. The credit card companies are still going to want their percentages. Not to mention the administrative and programming costs.
What I would love to see is this law reversed. EU companies required to collect US sales tax for all 50 states while US companies only need to collect sales taxes for the state in which they reside. I am part owner of a e-commerce company that sells digital goods and 50% of sales come from the US while less than 20% come from EU countries. It would hurt the EU more than it would hurt US.
Isn't that the Swiss? For their Army? :D
Washington post spreads FUD again. I can not understand why people read WP.
Go to reuters for the same text without all the propaganda between the lines.
TO TAX every entity making buisness within their border. Why is this SOOO diffcult to uednrstand ? Repeat after me. Internet sales are not different than normal one. The electronic medium doesn't make it something special. An e-tailer selling electronic goods is *doing* buiness in the country where the item is sold, not where the sale is. The same way a catalogue entity selling in the EU from sweden isn't submited to Sweden law but the law and VAT of the final country. Heck it even hold for US entity selling with EU (VAT should be payed at country entry) that you dislike it doesn't make it more your point of view correct.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
There ain't no way that I am going to pay/charge an EU VAT tax on my products on services. If they want my money they're going to have to come and get it from me.
Its bad enough they we're being taxed and regulated to death here at home, we don't need a bunch of pansy socialist european bureaucrats digging their grubby fingers into our pockets as well.
bcl
Remember Lexington Green!
When I lived in the UK, for a while I used to keep a "top ten rip-offs" list of Mac software that was outrageously overpriced in the UK compared to the US. Often no localization had been done; it was exactly the same software. I'd get a UK and a US MacWarehouse catalog, plug the numbers into a little Hypercard database, and it would spit out a Usenet posting. The idea was to try and shame some of the developers into moving to less crooked distributors.
Aladdin software actually wrote to me about how it wasn't their doing, and that there were basically two or three big software distributors in the UK who all overcharged by outrageous amounts. (In other words, most likely a cartel.) Still, there was wide variation in markup, from a few percent to totally obscene.
As I recall, the reigning champion was Dave Winer's Userland, whose UK markup was over 200%. It was cheaper to fly to New York and buy a copy than to buy it in the UK.
Things aren't as outrageous in the UK these days. I priced up building a computer for my family last month, and it turned out that buying the parts in the UK was no more expensive than buying in the US and shipping them the finished computer. Which is still bad, but not I-can't-believe-it bad.
Microsoft used to publish scary statistics stating that there was massive piracy of their software in the UK compared to the US. Well, the reason for that is they simply counted how many people were running Word (via surveys), counted number of sales through official channels in each country, and hey presto...
What they missed is that nobody I knew--literally nobody--bought their software from UK sources. Everyone would mail order from the US. So the apparent piracy rate in the UK would rise, and the apparent piracy rate in the US would drop.
Makes me wonder about the basis for similar statistics we see bandied about these days.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
In fact, VAT is a little different from Sales Tax.
The way VAT on new manufactured goods is supposed to work is that the company that makes the product charges VAT on it, but they reclaim the VAT on the pieces used to make the product (or it's not charged in the first place).
So even in the worst case where (say) company A makes a motherboard, ships it to company B who add a case and sell it as a barebones kit to company C, who custom build a computer and sell it to the end user, the computer has only been taxed once.
So if you're some guy in the UK selling custom-built PCs on eBay, yes, the EU expects you to charge VAT on the sale, and then claim back any VAT you paid when you bought the parts.
That's a highly simplified explanation, in fact. I used to write accounting software for a living, and European VAT regulations are comparable to the US tax code in their complexity. Drafted by a committee of dunces with no regard for how difficult they will be for the poor sap who has to implement them, and concerned only with ensuring that the right government bodies get their piece of the cash, and the right business donors get the appropriate preferential treatment.
How it all applies to someone not in the EU at all, I don't know. It'll be fascinating to find out.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Mod parent up, eh
That's a common argument, and sounds very compelling at first look. It has some big problems if you look more closely at it though.
1. Even in Europe, it is predominanlty children of well off academic families that use this free education. If you do the math, you will find that this subsidy is a pretty substantial net transfer of money from lower income earners to higher income earners! While in the US the rich parents at least have to finance their kids own first rate education from their own pockets. And very talented poor kids have lots of scholarship options, if they want to go to university.
2. I don't have an online reference, but all the research I've seen indicates that in reality, the US has far more social mobility than Europe. In other words, if you're born poor in the US, you are more likely to end up as a rich adult than if you're born poor in Europe.
And that is the best way I know of measuring actual equality of opportunity.
Economically, however, Sales Tax (or VAT as its called here in the UK) is a vital tool for regulation of the economy, as lower Income Tax and higher VAT encourages people to save accounts)
The shortcoming of this argument is that the value of savings is in their future spending power. If everything today became more expensive, would you start saving more money? Probably not, unless you believe that goods will become cheaper again in the future (citizens of Europe have given up any illusions that VAT will fall)
The real difference between income tax and VAT happens when people travel between countries. Then people are generally encouraged to travel to places with higher income tax/ VAT ratio. Of course many governements try to stop this by introducing tax free shopping for tourists.
Tor
Free? For every bit of that stuff you pay at least triple in taxes and the bureacracy it creates. I guess if you don't see it, you feel more 'comfortable' and can then stick your head in the sand and pretend you never paid for it.
This kind of big 'mothering' is why unemployment in Europe remains unbelievably high. Most economists consider ~4% as 'zero' unemployment, and for the U.S., the current rate of ~6% (2% real) is quite high. But in the workers' paradise of Europe, 9%-16% is standard, even during *good* economic times. What good does universal access to university do you when there are no jobs afterwards? I guess you could always come over here...
Does anyone know if this tax would also pertain to online services? I hate to mention it but I'm starting up a couple service sites, ok they are pron sites. Would I as a webmaster have to collect sales tax? I really haven't paid much attention to the online sales tax noise. How do I know all what the sales tax is for each state, county, country, etc? I just don't understand how that can work. I don't know if it pertains to service providers as well as other providers. If anyone knows, I'd love to hear it.
Don't those Euros know that rich people might be forced to pay taxes under this scheme? That just won't do. President Ramjet has a plan to deal with you - just you wait until he finds your Weapons of Mass Taxation. Then you'll all be sorry.
The swiss for whatever reason were considered the most deadly mercenaries/army in europe until 1847.
I don't see how you can justify that statement, they were invaded by the French (of all people) in 1798.
And we all know how bad the French are at that sort of thing.
So the French, Germans (as seen in WWI/WWII) and British (obviously) are not scared of the Swiss.
It's not that they are incompotent, they are well trained (and respected around the world) but they are hardly a match for a serious military force as it's such a very small country (the population of the whole country is less than that of Greater London).
The size of the country, and it's vunerable land locked poition, surrounded on three sides by main land Europe's three most notorious keen-on-invading trouble makers: the French (Napoleon), the Germans (WWI & WWII) and the Italians (WWII & the Holy Roman Empire), coupled with the evidence that clearly shows their defense force doesn't work (because it certainly didn't stop the French, Germans or the Italians from rolling into town) should be ample evidence that there isn't any military virtue in having a non-professional army.
I am not in the US right now but I used to live there earlier. As far as I know, Amazon does not ship to foreign locations. Could you explain how it works for you?
Is it possible to order from amazon for people living outside the US?
1. The Euro will follow. Just wait. I was never in denial about the dollar, I just knew it was taking us a little longer.
2. I was poking fun at the Euro. I think it is a stupid name for currency. I think the currency looks even stupider. Sorry, my oppinion.
3. Regulate education? On the outset it sounds like a good idea. But in practice it is just insane. In the US education is left at the State level, and most States pretty much leave it at the local level. You can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. That is why you shouldn't regulate education. If you try to regulate it you end up with a mess of trying to please everyone.
4. Your currency is only 4 years old. I don't care how strong you think it is. It is still only 4 years old. You just can't get around that. Currency has ups and downs. Sometimes you are strong, sometimes weak. I question wether countries that just 6 years ago had independent currencies are going to sit around and weather the storm when the euro eventually goes through a down spell. France has a sordid history of changing there minds acording to the direction of the wind. Is the Euro capable of surviving a large company opting out when the going gets rough?
5. You are confusing Iraq with the US. We stopped a country that practiced state-sponsored killing on a massive scale. As far as Muslim's and Islam, the US enjoys a massive population of Muslims. Those people are not the bad guys, and we know it. The bad guys are (1) new Muslim immigrants from the middle East and (2) part of the population of newly converted Muslims within our own country (before you say I am trolling do some research about WHO those people make up and my point will be made self-evident). Look, these people have declared war on our country. Us being suspicious of them is every bit as valid as us being suspicious of German citizens during WW1 and 2.
And as far as persecuting our own citizens, we did that, WW2 and Japanese. We view it as a mistake on a grand scale. We won't be doing it again.
'"And speaking of the EU. What is the deal with that montrosity anyways?
You have all these people just boiling over with jealousy about the US, saying all kinds of nasty things. But they all are appearing to emulate us. I mean 250 years ago we were a collection of territories that all were independent."
jelousy? i doubt. emulate? i hope not. and for the degree of independence of states please explain the "war of secession".
and somehow i don't think the US have a license on a union.'
-----
My point was that on paper some of the states are still technicaly independent, they are called 'Commonwealths'. I think there are 7 of them, although I honestly don't know which ones they are.
But it is only a technicality. For every decade and century that goes by they are less and less in reality independent of anything.
Believe me I only have to travel 100 miles south of where I am to find people that dissagree with the outcome of 'the war of secessio', they refer to it as 'the war of northern agression'. They say 'The South shall rise again' and they mean it.
I was just trying to say that the road you are on leads to (a) failure or (b) and outcome like ours, where the individual countries that you have all but dissapear and the history of the area is only a collective organism under one nation.
This isn't a bad thing mind you, but the only person you are fooling is yourself if you think there is a different outcome.
------
'define what you mean with "socialism" and explain why you don't like it.'
------
By a differnt name, liberalism. Or the pleasing of everyone by government edict on a massive scale.
State controlled health care for one. The Canadians have a centralized health care system like you envy and it is a real mess. Rich Canadians regularly come to the US for there health care needs.
Why would they do that?
Because the Canadian health care system isn't working as advertised. For all the faults our health care system does have it is still better then a socialist, i.e. liberal, i.e. centralized health care system.
Ditto for education. Can the student read English? Can they add and subtract? Know the definition of a mile? The history of the US? Then we are done talking about Government controlled education. We regulate it at the State and most often local level. The reason is simple. Different communities want different things out of the education system. The Southern Baptist people want something different then the people in NY. If you have a kid and you don't like the public system where you live and you can't afford private then there is nothing stopping you from moving to a community where you like and agree with the public system.
It is a good system.
Does that mean each sale in the supply chain attracts a levy? I.e. sales tax is non-deductable against futher sales. Ouch. That means a lot more than the European typical 15-22% of the ticket price can go in tax.
If it doesn't surely it's just a matter of implementation. You still end up giving a flat x% of each object's sale price to the state.
Here's an easy reminder:
Swiss - Army Knives.
Swedes - Donkey porn.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
the democrats for years to pay for welfare etc.
I'm sure you'll be jerking off for joy when the Republifucks finally "privatize" social security.
"my country is free of racial tension because we have strictly limited immigration from trouble makers." I take it Hitler has kept his popularity in your country...
When you use AOL in the UK, you are actually connecting to servers outside the uk (thru a leased line or someth (looking at the IP, it's like it's based there), thus they are based outside the uk
Well flamewar is a flamewar, here it goes:
What is that culture that dominates the world that you're talking about?
Reasonably thinking American culture is still a mixture (not a melting pot) of cultures. The most proeminent is the European branch culture that you have (the other should be the african culture).
I always find it funny when I hear americans (not all, not most of them, some of them) talking about their superior way of life and culture. I think you're problem is that you actually can't find a historical existence for america because everything that really cares for you is imported either from Europe or Africa (yes, the Amerindian culture where exterminated by You, and I'm not acusing you , I'm just reminding you, because everyone makes mistakes)
Finally, and to end this as well as I can I should remember that nor we are closed in our own land nor you are alone to rule the future of our planet. OUR planet, not mine, not yours, OUR and for OUR children that in a century might not even know what america (= USA) or europe is.
How old is US? Was that democracy what I saw in the old western movies? If your democracy worked so well why did the civil war happen? well, NKorean government might also call their own regime a democracy, who cares!? How can your infere that our democracies might collapse just basing in some decades of History? Actual USA won't ever be a dictatorship because before it can happen another secession war will break. The EU model is built to prevent tiranies in the future that's why (inlong term analisis) it is a federal model like yours.
nah, the swiss make the knife. the swedes make the meatballs.
Apparently not for "undesirables".
Although why you would want to emmigrate there.
Unless you like to f'ck hot blondes. That would be great.
Unemployment in European nations is measured quite differently than in the US.
A European rate of 3.1% is equal to a US rate of nearly 14%.
" so all the stores are obliged to write such a receipt if asked"
Yes, if asked. But its deceptive to have the tax buried on the price tax.
It would be clearer what people are paying if all goods were priced at pre-VAT rates and VAT was added at checkout.
It would remind the sheeple in Europe every day how much they pay for that "free" medical insurance.
"I will benefit by the increased taxes"
Why don't you send the government all your money then? Really get some great benefits!
You must have educated at one of those high-quality "free" european univerities.
You must've taken advanced logic and super-duper advanced reasoning.
The EU may put you in charge of its rocket program, next.
" but I am in favour of a level playing field"
Yeah, that's funny.
The US government will not be prosecuting anyone for failure to pay EU taxes.
The US government has no interest in doing that, and there is no law that requires US companies to collect EU taxes.
So the only enforcement will be the poodle-like yapping of French and Belgium ministers.
Hardly a threat to a sovereign nation.
"NHS patients with a specific serious heart problem had their operation waiting times cut by 6 months: the waiting time for the surgery was now just 18 months. I ask those Americans reading this: would you buy health insurance that had an 18 month waiting list for major heart surgery?"
This is why "free" health care is ultimately bad. It forces the people who contribute to society to get the same level of care as people who would rather not work.
I like the idea that because I work, I get better health care. It is a perk of being productive. The net result is in the US, the poor get a relatively low level of health care (as you do in Europe), and those who work at good jobs have *fabulous* health care.
In the US, people who work get access to the top specialist in their field with no waiting. If you have a serious heart condition, you get treatment *the next day*.
So you understand why the US as a nation doesn't *want* "free" health care?
And I assure you, other than a vocal minority, people who work for a living agree with my viewpoint.
"then my access to health care would be much worse than it is here."
I doubt it. I can have access to top specialist of my choice within 24 hours.
You have to hope for the best.
But hey, its "free", and its "equitable".
I guess that's more important that quality.
Seriously, its why people in the US have a hard time taking Europeans seriously. You seem to favor the easy road over the one that requires personal responsibility.
Its so cute to hear people who don't work for a living tell me I should pay for them to sit on their lazy fat ass.
07012003, I guess, I will have to stop selling
to those outside the U.S. (after 10+ years in
business). I refuse to work for the EU.
That does not seem to have been terribly effective in Iraq. Despite the fact that every house has a Kalashnikov they held the US off for less than a month.
Switzerland would not pose much more of a problem to a moderate power. Russia could do it easily, the Brits, Germans and French could probably do it if they really wanted to.
Of course occupying switzerland might be something of a problem, as the experience in Iraq is demonstrating. Basically the fanatics let the US take out Saddam and are now betting on dislodging the US through a guerilla war of attrition, 41 soldiers killed since the end of the invasion so far.
I don't buy the milita defense argument though. An aggressor state like Saddam's Iraq unlikely to retreat unless casualties get to an unacceptably high level, so far it is less than one person a day. I doubt the US would retreat for that reason alone either. What is more likely to cause a US withdrawal is if the level of civilian casualties being reported is unacceptably high.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
As an American shareware author, I quite frankly don't care if the EU says I have to charge VAT - I don't live there, and they can shove it. I will _not_ go to the extra effort of charging others and sending the money to the government, nor will I set up my site to do so.
I will also not deny EU customers from buying my product. Until the EU decides to specifically blacklist my IP address(es) from their area, I will not stop selling to them. I am tired of countries and states trying to get a portion of _my_ work for themselves. Just because someone lives in their area does not mean that they can compell _me_ to charge that customer. I believe that people have a right to association, and that the government does not grant them that privilege.
Screw You, EU.
I'm a US citizen. I hate most Europeans. I think the Swedes in general are dead wrong about just about everything. Let's get that out front.
However, Swedes are unusually generous about adopting kids from third world locales. I know personally of several cases, and I know one person very well who was adopted out of Sri Lanka by a kind Swedish family. Definitely not your typical Nordic kid.
It's unfair to tar them with being Nazis like you are, based on race. While Sweden is a monoracial society by and large, the people there generally aren't all that racist. Though the one kid I am referring to (he's in high school now, or their equivalent) does talk a lot about getting berated by the local white kids. I think he's a bit on the wrong side as well though, has a smart ass mouth and likes to cheat a lot on online games. So that might not be representative.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Your game playing evidence is certainly incredibly valuable.
A small business does not have the resources to collect VAT for 100 different countries (because if this works for the EU every country will do it), and hence will in practice be restricted to their local market.
What this initiative does is stifle progress and global economy. It's plain old-fashioned protectionism, and it stinks.
"A *person* is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
- 'K' in Men in Black.
I have never seen the levels of depravation you can find in the US in Europe.
Say what you may, but in Europe the distribution of income seems to be fairer and more equitative than in the good ole US of A.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the UK at least it is amazingly trivial and cheap. After that you hire an accountant that handles all the tax issues and correspondence for you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
A few observations:
Firstly - Switzerland has a very strong defensive position. Almost the entire country is mountain terrain. This and the fact that all their bridges are mined, makes access with armed vehicles difficult, and means any attackers will have rely on infantry for ground level fighting to an extent. They are still succeptable to arial bombardment, but this is less effective against guerilla tactics (which the Swiss will presumably use).
I also have very strong issues with only men being forced to do this training,
I think this is mainly to do with repopulation. After heavy military losses, you will want to make sure you have as many people as possible fit for service in 15-20 years. If you lose a large portion of the male population, this does not affect the potential population growth rate as much as losing a large portion of the female population.
in germany, if your monthly income is below a certain limit you cannot apply for a private medical insurance. why? because the "state" insurances are forced to accept everyone, regardless of his medical condition since he has to be insured. the private insurances, however, might refuse you if they think you are too much of a risk, or the insuarance fee is far beyond anything you can afford if you are an average worker. so it pretty much provides basic care for everyone (or at least it should). is it effcient? by all means no. but not because the idea as such is bogus, but because the system is riddled with bureaucracy and employees who think they do you a divine service if they give you 30 seconds of their valuable time. a bit hire and fire would really be needed here.
The way I feel is, if we have to become a big federal country in order to stand up to the US (which I sadly feel is increasingly necessary, for many reasons), then so be it
You will not be able to defeat the evils of a totalitarian state by becoming a totalitarian state.
Ass wipe, I ran a large MMORPG - coded a good portion and administered it for a while. It's a great way to learn about people. They immerse their entire lives in the things, and I had to address some of the worst aspects of their adolescent minds.
So go fuck yourself, I doubt you've done anything remotely comparable.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
One big problem here is that the services they want to tax are not being rendered in the EU. Does the EU require it's citizens to pay VAT on a restaurant meal in Manhattan?
This is also a screw job because the US companies aren't able to deduct expenses from the VAT the way the EU companies can. Effectively, the VAT is applied to margins for the EU companies, but gross income for the non-EU companies.
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
If I visit the US, I don't have to pay sales tax - I can get the sales tax refunded - but I may have to pay import duty when I return to the EU (if I am honest or if customs catch me) - so for "real" stores, consider it is considered to be an EU trade.
Why should it be different for the net?
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
As an end user (from the EU) you are correct but I believe the main point of this thread is that US based vendors do not have to collect the VAT. They are not doing "trade" in the EU.
WTF? EU Government has no jurisdiction over companies outside the EU. Why would they think they do?
This can be safely ignored by any company without an EU presence. And should be.
Actually it favors local companies vs. internet retailers. When I was last in Italy I bought some clothes and paid VAT. When I returned to the states I sent in the form and got the Vat refunded. In Japan, present a passport and VAT is waived. I guess its too much to ask for a single rate and a single point to send in the money. I work at a small web hosting company and most of my clients are small retailers. LandsEnd, Amazon, and AOL won't have a problem. Of cource if you sell to Brazillians you have to have your server in Brazil.