GameCube ISOs Released?

Mister.de writes "An online piracy group called "StarCube" has made ISO's of games like The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker available for download on the net. They are not publicly available to everyone, but are said to be hosted on private warez FTP sites. As of yet (6/14/2003) there is no way to actually play the games after burning to a mini-disc, but reliable sources say that there will be a hack for the GameCube released soon so that these illegal copies can be played. Also rumors do have it that the copied games can be played on the Panasonic GameCube, but that is unconfirmed. " The story came from Console-Gods originally.

Comments

it's a good thing it was posted....

[hatrisc]

on slashdot, because the feds will see it and immediatedly shut it down. way to ruin our fun /.!

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Trespass]

Don't worry, the color scheme will blind them. We can escape in the confusion.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, slashdot is now a warez site. I donÂt know about the rest of you, but posting something like this is... well, questionable. All it does is perpetuate the myth that all OSS advocates do is steal.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[indead]

Why? My time is DEFINITELY worth more than it takes to download and burn an ISO (not to mention I like supporting game developers who make games I like), but I'm still interested in this as a news item.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[remmy1978]

You may want to pay for your fun instead like others do. Alternatively, you can find fun which is free of charge but within the boundaries of the law.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure the poster wasn't hoping the site would get slashdotted and shut down?

Same effect as getting the feds involved, only faster.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a shame you can't do anything other than watch the percentage bar during the download... you know, like stand up, walk away from the computer, open another browser window/tab/new terminal.

Oh wait. You can.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a parapalegic using DOS with a 300 baud aural modem, YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD!

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[iq in binary]

Alternatively, you can find fun which is free of charge but within the boundaries of the law.

Yeah, like sex!

Wait wait, I'm sorry. I forgot most /.ers probably pay for that as well :-P

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Corporate Troll]

Wait wait, I'm sorry. I forgot most /.ers probably pay for that as well :-P

Yeah, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[Anonymous Coward]

Then roll away. Man, are you mentally retarded too?

Re:it's a good thing it was posted....

[indead]

Oh wait, it's still easier just to buy the game.

Where are the links???

[jkrise]

Atleast you could've included some rumored links? Or sites rumored to contain links rumored to contain the warez? After all, this is Slashdot!!

Re:Where are the links???

[Chris_Jefferson]

Not going to tell you where to get these ISOs, other than they are floating around the usual warez spots, particularily on IRC.

However you can see what has been ripped so far at:

http://www.nforce.nl/nfos/index.php?do=1&s=20

Re:Where are the links???

[Anonymous Coward]

i saw the "isos" last night on a site, which will remain unnamed, but i dont think this will really pan out as well as the DC did. this is either a scam or it involves much physical hacking of the GC.

Re:Where are the links???

[Anonymous Coward]

Piracy of Nintendo games is wrong.

Hard to do

[Bagels]

Getting an ISO wouldn't be impossible - the real problem is that you have to rig your 'Cube to read it, as GCN discs spin *backwards*. To play a burned disc, you'd have to either heavily modify your computer or your 'Cube, and in the end it would be cheaper to just buy the game rather than pirate it.

Re:Hard to do

[James_Duncan8181]

I am not entirely sure that the spins backwards thing is true (as that would mean that the normal GC discs wouldn't play on the Panasonic model) but assuming that it is, why not just make a program that modifies the ISO before burning?

Surely this is the simpler method...

Re:Hard to do

[Westley]

I don't think you understand. It's not that the ISO has the bits backwards, it's that the "groove" is backwards - clockwise instead of anti-clockwise, or vice versa.

I don't know how the Q works - perhaps its drive can spin in both directions?

Re:Hard to do

[Chris_Jefferson]

There have already been multiple people who have made unoffical discs, like Datel's action replay and freeloader (disc for allowing the playing of games from a different region) so clearly it isn't too hard (or they don't really spin backwards)

Re:Hard to do

[Bagels]

That's only half the problem. Even if you could make the discs read backwards, you'd have to make the GameCube fit standard DVD size discs, and I'm not entirely sure that the data on the Game Discs is stored with the same density as a normal DVD. Again, for either problem, it's literally more trouble than it's worth, because you will almost certainly wreck your GameCube for playing non-pirated games.

Re:Hard to do

[Mr_Silver]

Getting an ISO wouldn't be impossible - the real problem is that you have to rig your 'Cube to read it, as GCN discs spin *backwards*.

Not quite. Rather than writing data to the discs normally from the inside to the outside of the disc, Nintendo does it vice-versa and write the data to the disks from the outside in. Therefore the data is written to (and read from) the disk backwards. But the disk itself spins the normal way around.

To play a burned disc, you'd have to either heavily modify your computer or your 'Cube, and in the end it would be cheaper to just buy the game rather than pirate it.

I'm no expert on chipping, but I would assume that you'd just need to chip your GC and then write the games ISO out differently than you would normally (specialised software?). But even if this thing cost £200, you'd still be saving money after your 5th game.

Re:Hard to do

[womprat]

I'm pretty sure they don't spin backwards. I even went and popped open the lid while the system was reading. I'm not sure why this rumor keeps popping up though. I've heard it so many times.

Whatever protection they have on there is damn good since (barring this story) I haven't heard of anyone successfully reading a disc.

Re:Hard to do

[Westley]

Having read the other posts, I'm now confused myself. However, I'm pretty sure it's *not* just a case of taking a normal ISO and reversing the order of the bits...

Re:Hard to do

[JonoPlop]

Not quite. Rather than writing data to the discs normally from the inside to the outside of the disc, Nintendo does it vice-versa and write the data to the disks from the outside in. Therefore the data is written to (and read from) the disk backwards. But the disk itself spins the normal way around.

Is this true? If so, I'm thinking it's a good idea with today's optical drives; If I'm not mistaken, the RPM is constant (well, pretty much) in modern drives. Does this mean that by writing the data that is read first to the outside, it will load quicker as the outer rim has a larger linear velocity? This would make game start-up times quicker, no? (in addition to funky piracy protection)

Re:Hard to do

[hrieke]

But even if this thing cost £200, you'd still be saving money after your 5th game.

That is, until you get busted for wazes and have to pay a £20,000 fine.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm now confused myself.

Yup. It's the color scheme.

Re:Hard to do

[Mr_Silver]

That is, until you get busted for wazes and have to pay a £20,000 fine.

I don't know about outside of the US, but in the UK they're mostly concerned with people distributing pirated games rather than those who have a chipped console and a bunch of copied games.

Re:Hard to do

[ymgve]

It's not hard to do if you've got the money to rent a DVD-pressing factory. :)

Re:Hard to do

[abiogenesis]

Dreamcast drives are CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) and have a hard time reading the inner tracks. That's why when you backup a game, you should use specialized software like DiscJuggler that can calculate where to start writing so that the data ends at the outer edge of the CD. I believe it then fills the inner tracks with dummy bytes.

Re:Hard to do

[hrieke]

Certainly the US feels the same way; go after the distributors and not the 'users', but if a person is big enough to draw the attention of the 'powers that be', then you could face action (and while not a citizen of the UK, I'm sure that the legal system there works in the same fashion: make an example of this bloke as a warning to the rest of scene).

Re:Hard to do

[Eamon C]

you'd have to make the GameCube fit standard DVD size discs

Or just take a dremel and cut the discs to size. Since CDs and DVDs are read from the inside out (as opposed to vinyl records), this shouldn't affect anything but aesthetics.

Re:Hard to do

[Echnin]

Yep. They do NOT spin backwards. That's an idiotic claim. Anyone can pop the GC up while playing and see that it spins clockwise, just like regular CDs. Takes 5 seconds to find that out.

Re:Hard to do

[Spokehedz]

I'm almost 99% sure that the discs don't spin backwards, but Iâ(TM)d have to have a friend of mine bring his GC over so that I could test it. The reason Iâ(TM)m _guessing_ it doesnâ(TM)t spin backwards, is because of the plain and simple fact that console hardware developers don't like to get into _really_ proprietary stuff because of the high-cost of the Devkit that would be required by the hardware. And the more the developer has to pay for the Devkit, the less likely they are to get it if they are a smaller company who can't afford the multi-million dollar expenses... which translates into less games. And we all know how less games--that very well may be high quality games--turns out... All I gotta say is Playstation, and you know what Iâ(TM)m talking about.

What they _probably_ did was take some 'special' 8cm DVD disks (look here for more info and a picture of one in a case--how hard would it be to get it out of there if your the "Big N"?) and encode it in such a way that only a specially modified firmware would read the discs.

Just like the dreamcast (which did use some special hardware... and the price of the Devkit was high... No games (in USA)... pattern?) did. Its all a matter of TRICKING the GC into thinking whatever disc you put in there was supposed to be there, and then either making it read the discs as normal, or formatting your discs to use the same layout as the real discs.

And anyone with a oscilloscope (and a fair bit of skill with it) can see what lines are being pulled high/low to see what the disc is reading at a given time. How do you think these 'mod chips' actually work? All they do is feed the processor/DSP a code of 'This disc is ok--just play the game' and then the processor does what itâ(TM)s been designed to do.

Its like cracking a videogame on the computer--all we do is make the 'Disc bad/not present--no play' instruction jump to the 'Disc present--play' instead. Its so elegantly simple, and its mind-boggling how stupid game developers think that anything they make will never be cracked, just because they have some 'proprietary' disc/code/hardware.

Let me make this as clear as possible to game hardware developers out there:

So long as your processor supports the jump assembly command, or your hardware uses standard CMOS/TTL voltages/IC's, your program/game can be hacked. I said 'can', because its all a matter of who wants to put the effort into it and not just the plain and simple fact that they can do it. Ok... maybe thereâ(TM)s a little of that in there too. ;)

Re:Hard to do

[Chess_the_cat]

This would make sense because I believe it plays DVDs too. So it must be able to spin both ways.

Re:Hard to do

[muffen]

But even if this thing cost £200, you'd still be saving money after your 5th game.

IMHO, you didnt save any money, you stole it.
Why is it that people don't consider pirating stealing?

Arguments for pirating such as: "I wouldn't have bought the game if I hadn't pirated it, so they didn't loose any money of me" simply do not hold. I rarely hear someone say: "I stole a game today by downloading it of the net, but I have no moral problems with this"
If you wouldn't have bought the game, then don't copy it and don't play it. If you want to play the game, then buy it.

I don't really care if people copy stuff, I know I'm not 100% legal myself, even though I try to be. Sometimes I just cant afford it, in which case I knowingly steal from the company that made the app (don't really copy games, as they are cheap enough to buy). Just don't try to justify piracy.
The try-b4-buy argument is fairly useless too, as there are either demos you can DL, or you can try the game in the shop.

BTW: I know you didn't try to justify copying in your original post, and this is not ment as a direct response to your post, just seemed to be a good one to hit reply on :)

Guess it's time to get modded down, but what the heck, atleast I got to state my opinions...

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

Why is it that people don't consider pirating stealing?

Because it's not. It's copyright infingement. It's still a crime, but it's not stealing. Theft deprives the original owner of the property use of said property.

Re:Hard to do

[56ksucks]

It doesn't spin backwards. As a matter of a fact, even though you can't read the files on a PC, if you click the disk info button in Nero it will give you info on the disk. I don't think it would do that if the tracks were written backwards.

Re:Hard to do

[analog_line]

(which did use some special hardware... and the price of the Devkit was high... No games (in USA)... pattern?)

Ah, so the 53 games I have (not burned copies...the actual discs) don't exist! As well as the hundred or so others I haven't gotten my hands on yet, or just don't want. These are USA released games. Last count I made, the Dreamcast had more than twice the number of US releases as the Nintendo 64.

Re:Hard to do

[ajs318]

Why is it that people don't consider pirating stealing?

Put it this way. If I want a delicious Triple Chocolate Muffin, I could buy one ..... Or I could save money by baking my own, using my own ingredients and oven.

Would that be stealing?


So how come you think is it stealing if I make my own game discs using my own blank discs and computer?

Re:Hard to do

[fr0dicus]

But even if this thing cost £200, you'd still be saving money after your 5th game.

If the 5th game ever came out after you KILLED THE PLATFORM.

Piracy is for morons. Dear morons, please stay away from nintendo kit :(

Re:Hard to do

[u-238]

if you _dont_ stop talking like _this_ im going to be forced to _kill you_

Re:Hard to do

[banuaba]

Does nintendo even have 5 games?

Let's see...
Mario.
Zelda.
Metroid.

I only count 3. :(:(:(:(:(

DEAR FROD PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM COCK+MOUTH KIT!

Re:Hard to do

[fr0dicus]

By the same factor the Xbox only has 1 game, and the PS2 only has 2 ;)

Re:Hard to do

[banuaba]

Yeah, well, you're a dirty englishman who LOVES COCKS!

Re:Hard to do

[Serpent Mage]

It is the theft of intellectual property.

If you went and baked your own Triple Chocolate Muffin yourself with your own recipe then it is not stealing. If you stole the companies recipe for Triple Chocolate Muffin and baked it then it is stealing.

If you rewrote the game on your own discs using your computer then no it isn't stealing. Since you are stealing the recipe for the game however it is.

See common sense works even with the most outrageous examples :-)

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

what a stupid analogy

Re:Hard to do

[muffen]

So how come you think is it stealing if I make my own game discs using my own blank discs and computer?

ehh..??
Let's see, you bake the muffins using your own ingredients. You create a CD using someone elses ingredients (software in this case).. and you fail to see why it is stealing?

To make this accurate, it should be: I make my own muffins using my own oven etc, but I get all the ingredients for free from a shop, without the shop actually agreeing to give it to me.

I agree with the first post saying that it's not stealing, but that it is a crime. However, in your case I fail to see the logic all together.

Re:Hard to do

[Smellz]

That analogy is pretty far off target. More accurate would be you walking into the store, stuffing muffin ingredients under your shirt, then going home and putting it all in the oven.

You didn't take the effort to WRITE that game. You stole the code, the media it's on is irrelevent. You're paying for the hours spent designing, coding, and testing the game, as well as the packaging and publishing fees.

Re:Hard to do

[Divide By Zero]

I make my own muffins using my own oven etc, but I get all the ingredients for free from a shop, without the shop actually agreeing to give it to me.

<metaphor_nazi>
Actually, it's running in back, stealing a copy of the copyrighted recipe, then going home and baking the food.
</metaphor_nazi>

Remember, everybody, software (the "stolen" bits in question) are just instructions. You use your own CD burner, your own laser, your own electricity to power all of the above. The only crime you're committing is unauthorized use of copyrighted information. Which, granted, is a crime, but just to set the metaphor straight.

Re:Hard to do

[Spokehedz]

Yes, but look the number of PSX games out there. That number surely dwarfs the "hundred or so" games for the dreamcast.

I also forgot to mention that ease of programming is also important for a Devout--and if you have proprietary hardware, that has special commands and loading techniques for the media, its not going to be as easy as say, a normal-CD based unit which the speeds of which can be determined before you make a final copy of your game, so you can (at least attempt) to program your game into knowing what to pre-load beforehand, so you have a little load time as possible.

Itâ(TM)s widely known that the N64 devkit was horribly difficult to program for... Which is primarily the reason why itâ(TM)s now defunked. But the PSX is simple to program for, and which is why there was so many games made for it.

This is all speculation--I have very little facts to actually back this up. The only thing Iâ(TM)m going on here is logic.

Re:Hard to do

[ajs318]

My point is that writing a piece of software does not automatically entitle you to a cash reward. If designing, coding and testing weren't reward enough for you then get a proper job instead.

Just because an idea travelled through your mind, does not make you its "owner". Ideas do not belong to anyone. The only workable test for ownership is "who would rightly be annoyed if this was destroyed?" and ideas cannot be destroyed, therefore are not ownable.

Re:Hard to do

[the morgawr]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most people don't have a problem with copyright infringment because the concept of "owning" and idea runs counter to human nature. For many people this is amoral.

Asside from the morality, in any industry with high profit margins there will be a black market of some sort. Companies try to maximize profits by balancing the money they make with a higher margin against the money they don't make when people decide (in this case) to "steal." Recently companies have tried to skirt this choice by making it harder to make copies. Ideally, they would adjust their bussiness model to counter the threat of cheep information processing, but there is strong pressure from the market(an olygopoly) to not change. This causes companies to spend insane amounts of cash in the short term to avoid changing, even when it would benifit them in the long-run.

Note: I'm 100% legal.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like reading a comic book at the store, without ever paying for it, perhaps they have lost revenue from it, but they haven't physically lost anything, so there is a slight difference between stealing physical property, and intellectual property.

Re:Hard to do

[muffen]

My point is that writing a piece of software does not automatically entitle you to a cash reward.

We're talking about gamecube games here (look that story this thread is under). Games that are released in shops and sold for money. I am pretty certain that the people creating these games have real jobs, which is creating these games.

Re:Hard to do

[zakezuke]

People should respect the copyrights. Supporting the industry and all. The game should be purchaced at some point.

However... I'm happy to see that the piracy of such games is going on strong, in the same way that a fast number of 8-bit games are available for download. This is shit you just can't buy anymore. It's still a copyright violation for those who didn't buy them in the first place, but the copyright holders either look a blind eye to it, or even grant license to do so.

But I'm mostly happy at the fact that that this research doesn't only permit piracy, but it would in theory permit legit people to publish a game without special shit.

Re:Hard to do

[muffen]

Note: I'm 100% legal.

You're over 18 then? :)

Sorry, I tried, but I couldn't resist posting that one.. :)

Re:Hard to do

[ichimunki]

Which is primarily the reason why itâ(TM)s now defunked.

Too bad! I'm sure the lack of N64 funkiness is the primary reason the console is now defunct. If the game ain't funky, I don't want no part of none of that! :)

I thought it was widely known that the N64 was a cart-system, which is (overall) more expensive to bring games to market on, regardless of the devkit/libraries. Since mastering carts is always going to be more difficult and expensive than mastering CD/DVD-type media, this means the barriers to entry for that console are higher-- so you get fewer developers taking a chance in the first place, and certainly not taking chances with the types of games they might make.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, Nintendo is one of those companies that uses game quality as a selling point. Of course, the console company being this strict with the licensing is likely to scare off bit players and people looking to make "questionable" titles.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

If designing, coding and testing weren't reward enough for you then get a proper job instead.

Are you suggesting that nobody should expect to be paid for programming?

Re:Hard to do

[Azureflare]

I think it's not even thought of as piracy by the pirater; Games are strange like that. Games are strange because you pay a lot of money for something that you get mindless entertainment from for a few hours, while you press little buttons and little dots on a screen move around. It really is completely pointless, and paying money for it, to some people, seems utterly ridiculus.

You also need to realize that there are some people in the world who have real addictions to video games, and seriously need to get that next videogame to have their next fix. OK, yes, they could stop and halt the endless whirlpool down that their life is probably taking, but try telling that to the big ugly monster on the screen =P

If you play games too much, it's like in all those stories where the hero gets trapped in a dream...Only the gamer doesn't want to escape. If anyone's read that (admittedly slightly childish) new book out by Terry Pratchett, The Wee Free Men, it has some of those elements in it. Of course it draws from ancient mythology, but the idea is what I'm getting at here.

It's really like modern drugs. Hey, I'd rather have those pirates pirating games, then going around shoplifting and holding up banks for their next "fix."

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I just downloaded the ROM for Advance Wars 2 for Gameboy Advance. There's no demo of it and it can't be tried in the stores. I paid in full for this game three weeks ago and it doesn't come out for one more week. I know I'm not legal with this, but I don't feel guilty at all. I'm not trying before I buy, I'm trying before I pick up my copy.

Re:Hard to do

[Overly Critical Guy]

There is always some yahoo who chimes in with this.

Yes, it is theft. You are depriving the owner of value by diminishing it. You are stealing their profits by obtaining one of their works that you should have paid them for. Taking money they should have, but don't.

Why is this so hard to understand? Is there just something about the word "stealing" that gets Slashbots in a fuss?

Re:Hard to do

[Doomstalk]

I have no actual proof to back this up, so it's heresay, but interesting nonetheless. I've read from a number of sources that the disc doesn't spin backwards, but is structured in a backwards fashion, with the lead-out on the inside of the disc, and the lead-in on the outside. Additionally (this part is confirmed by myself and others), the information identifying it as a legitimate disc is a barcode around the center of the disc just past the data area, making it extremely hard to fool the system without a hardware mod, since the barcode is nigh on impossible to duplicate at home (unless you live in a professional mastering plant). Both of these phenomena can be observed if you hold in the switch that tells the Cube the drive is open, it goes to the inside of the disc beyond the data region to the barcode, then travels to the outside of the disc before it starts loading. Confirming that the barcode is necessary to load the game is quite simple: take a small piece of tape, or use a dry erase marker, and cover it up. The Gamecube laser will travel to the inside of the disc and then refuse to load. Finally, the Gamecube will not read CDs. If you try obstructing the barcode like I mentioned earlier, the Gamecube will still spin up the disc and attempt to read it. However, if you put a CD in, it will stop spinning immediately. The implications of this in relation to Gamecube piracy are these: First of all, unmodified Gamecubes will have no way of reading copied discs, as it's not a simple matter of disc structuring like the Dreamcast. Secondly, I'm not sure how easy it will be to get a DVD burner to write a disc in such a fashion, as they're geared towards making standards compliant DVDs. Finally, even the smallest games will have to be burned to DVD, meaning the vast majority of would-be pirates will be left out in the cold, as they're too cheap to buy DVD burners.

Re:Hard to do

[Doomstalk]

I take it you have a professional mastering plant in your basement.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright Infringement is a violation of Trust. It may not be stealing, but it is still as loathsome.

Re:Hard to do

[Zakabog]

Most of the games I bought, I bought because a few years back when Half-Life was in a beta state I downloaded a warez copy and totally loved the game. I bought it the day it came out and since then I've been buying games. Sometimes I download a warez version and play it for a while first, if I really enjoy it I buy the full version. If I only play it for a month and get bored, well didn't cost me anything to find out the game sucked, and it didn't cost the company that made the game anything cause I wasn't going to buy their game anyway (it sucked.)

Let's see, you bake the muffins using your own ingredients. You create a CD using someone elses ingredients (software in this case).. and you fail to see why it is stealing?

Not quite. You create a CD using someone elses recipe (software in this case) it's not stealing physical items, it's copying a recipe. If you use someone elses recipe to make muffins without their permission, well that's a lot like copying software. You use your own ingredients (which would be a blank CD, computer, and CD burning software) which are all physical items that you could steal (but you're not stealing.) The only thing that isn't yours is the software itself and it costs the game company nothing for you to copy their software and use it yourself, unless you would have otherwise bought their software and most of the time you wouldn't have (can't afford it, don't like it, have no reason to buy it.) Unless you sell the CDs to people (like selling the muffins) there is no loss to the software company that made the games (or the bakery that makes the muffins.)

Re:Hard to do

[d3faultus3r]

I'm not so sure about that. Nintendo has a habit of making things hard for developers. They rarely use standard hardware. Remember how everyone was complaining about n64 cartridges being prohibitably expensive to develope on?

Re:Hard to do

[Abcd1234]

Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it's not strictly true. Okay, suppose I choose to pirate some game that I most definitely would have purchased otherwise. In this case it can be argued that, yes, I've chosen to withhold value that the company would otherwise have (OTOH, I am not depriving them of something they already had, but let's forget that for the moment). Now, let's say I pirate some game that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise (due to, for example, the risk of laying down dollars for a game I'm not sure I'd like). In this case, am I "stealing" (to use your definition)? Since I wouldn't have purchased the game anyway, I'm not depriving the company of anything, right? So is this theft?

You see, calling copyright infringement "stealing" is just not accurate. Theft refers to the taking of something from someone else and depriving them of that item. Copyright infringement just doesn't work this way. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, they're both fruit (illegal), but they really are fundamentally different things.

Re:Hard to do

[Carbonite]

That is, until you get busted for wazes and have to pay a £20,000 fine.

Yes, but you'd still be saving money after your 500th game!

Re:Hard to do

[captainstupid]

I have not confirmed this myself, but supposedly it's not that the discs spin backwards,
it's that the laser starts reading the disc from the outside and works its way towards the center.

This is different (of course) from the normal, start reading at the center of the disc and work your way out.

If this is the case, it seems like a incredibly simple yet effective method of copy protection.

Re:Hard to do

[Spokehedz]

Too bad! I'm sure the lack of N64 funkiness is the primary reason the console is now defunct. If the game ain't funky, I don't want no part of none of that! :)

well... There were quite a few funky titles for it... And some of them just downright reeked. *shudders when he thinks about Superman*

I thought it was widely known that the N64 was a cart-system, which is (overall) more expensive to bring games to market on, regardless of the devkit/libraries. Since mastering carts is always going to be more difficult and expensive than mastering CD/DVD-type media, this means the barriers to entry for that console are higher-- so you get fewer developers taking a chance in the first place, and certainly not taking chances with the types of games they might make.

Yes, I knew that it was a cart system (my copy of Zelda:OoT and Zelda:MM proves that.) and I knew about the cost of the cart-based games. I just chose to ignore that fact, because everyone else has said that... played out, as it were. ;)

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, Nintendo is one of those companies that uses game quality as a selling point. Of course, the console company being this strict with the licensing is likely to scare off bit players and people looking to make "questionable" titles.

Exactly what titles were you looking for? Pr0n? Need I remind you what happens with scantily clad female BMX bikers?

While Iâ(TM)ll agree with this "G-Rated only games" is a bunch of hooey, I must also admit that Nintendo's first-party games are usually fairly good. In all of its simplicity, Pikmin is a very addictive game. And Windwaker is also very good as well--Iâ(TM)ve played that one quite a bit at my friendâ(TM)s house, and I enjoy it very much. (I don't own any consoles anymore--my computer takes up too much of my limited income. I still have all my carts/CD/GD-ROM's though. From Atari to Vectrex, I have every one I ever bought.)

I just think that maybe the whole 'piracy' thing is kinda stupid. I mean, if they wanted to completely eliminate the piracy altogether, they would do an online purchase and download of the game you wanted. Nothing stored on the actual unit, except what game you were playing right then, and it would get purged when the unit is off. Your bought games would be assigned a registration key that would be encrypted with PGP and your key would be stored on a read-only key-card that youâ(TM)re given with your unit when you purchase it at the store. That way, the downloads are encrypted, they are decrypted locally in the unit, and you play. When you go to a friends house or a public gaming place, you put your card in and all your data (which is on the server, remember--not the card.) comes with you.

You would be able to play anywhere, on anyone's hardware. Piracy would be all but eliminated, because there's no physical media present, and the only thing would be key-card theft/spoofing. But that could be easily solved, by just having a simple username and password for when you login to the network.

And before you go nuts about the size of the games, you don't use all of the data at once--just small parts of it. And if a game were programmed correctly, it would cache stuff you needed, or download entire levels at a time--which wouldnâ(TM)t take up that much room.

Combined with OGG and some basic texture compression (just think of Windwaker's compression rates! ;) levels could be fairly small--even for modem users.

Its possible... and that's where I predict games will be in the next 15-20 years.

Re:Hard to do

[lostchicken]

Would a mechanical hack be possible? Could one simply turn parts (the head assembly) of your DVD-R around to get this to work? Hrmmm...

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Urm... So how come when I burn a CD, the outer tracks are the ones that are burnt, and not the inner ones. That would imply that a normal CD starts on the outer rim and moves inward.

Re:Hard to do

[Scrameustache]

You are depriving the owner of value by diminishing it.

What?

You are stealing their profits

Huh?

Taking money they should have, but don't.

What the hell?

Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you speak nonsense, obviously.

You "steal" money that they don't have? But you don't end up with money yourself...makes no sense. This is the kind of double talk only an economist or lawyer can follow. There is hypotetical money being magically stolen, money that never was in the pockets of those who it is "stolen" from and does not en up in the pockets of the "thieves", and you wonder why people don't see it?

I'm not saying that its A OK to copy everything and never pay for anything. But you made no sense.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Um... Because you're an idiot who doesn't know what burnt CD looks like?

Re:Hard to do

[kmac06]

You are an arrogant idiot.

Pirating IS NOT stealing. They are DIFFERENT crimes with DIFFERENT laws. However closely related they may be is irrelevant. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Why is this so hard to understand?

ps-sorry it just really pisses me off when someone who doesn't know what they're talking about tries to definitively talk about something.

Re:Hard to do

[Doomstalk]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add: As Bunnie of Xbox hacking fame noted a while ago oh his site he Gamecube BIOS is conained within a nonstandard ROM chip, making it much harder to read or to circumvent without expensive reverse engeneering.

Re:Hard to do

[UserGoogol]

Theft does not mean depriving the owner of value. If I invent a new kind of car which runs on air, then I would deprive the oil company of value. But it's perfectly legal, and, in fact, a Good Thing.

Theft is essentially taking the property of another without permission. This stuff is duplication of the copyrighted material without permission. A subtle difference, but enough to consider them different things.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Its because you are a dumbass. CDs are burned surely from the inside.

Re:Hard to do

[Piranhaa]

No you just get mini dvd discs ...

Re:Hard to do

[beta21]

Arguments for pirating such as: "I wouldn't have bought the game if I hadn't pirated it,

Arguments for car thefts such as: "I wouldn't have bought that car if I hadn't "borrowed it" "

Re:Hard to do

[Piranhaa]

I have a source that has had a friend who did the mod, but screwed up his Cube in the process - reads the burnt games, but originals can't be read anymore... So until they fix that, I can assure you not many people are going to do this mod, unless they have a second cube ;)

Re:Hard to do

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Theft does not mean depriving the owner of value. If I invent a new kind of car which runs on air, then I would deprive the oil company of value. But it's perfectly legal, and, in fact, a Good Thing.

That's what you think. Just wait until the OIAA (Oil Industry Association of America) takes you to court for stealing their profits! Hell, if the RIAA/MPAA could get the DMCA rammed through when half of congress hates them for being so liberal, just image what kind of laws the OIAA can get passed to smother your air car invention...

Re:Hard to do

[tenton]

Uh...no.

CDs and DVDs are also sealed in clean rooms...take a dremel and you will corrupt the disc. (this also includes blank media--they're made in a very similar fashion to the pressed discs).

Plus, if we're talking burned discs...you'll just peel the reflective layer and the recording dye (once the seal from the lacquer is compromised, the top layer becomes really easy to peel, on its own), while you're cutting it with the dremel.

Re:Hard to do

[willr7]

In the US there aren't cops running around knocking on doors to check whose got a modded console and who doesn't.

Here they're concerned w/ the same thing you said plus, it's kind of hard to find people to mod the console for you.

Example: try to find a business that advertises they chip consoles (this is not flamebait, I haven't found one yet). Instead it is always your friend who knows someone who knows someone who knows how to do it.

Unless, of course you know how to do it yourself :D

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

There is ONE person/company that has made unofficial discs, and that is Datel's Freeloader/AR, but that was delayed for OVER A YEAR so clearly it IS hard, but (naturally) not impossible.

Re:Hard to do

[willr7]

This is a great post. Make me think of what "legal" business and "illegal" business is considered.

You thnk the J.P. Morgan and his kids, Rockefellers, and Warren Buffet were/are respectable businessman?

They were respectable to people who didn't know them, but they were just as dirty as thieves on the street.

Read "Morgan: An American Financier" or "Liars Poker" or "Born to Steal:When the Mafia hit Wall Street".

Great books, and show that the upper tier of money can pretty much do whatever the hell they want - legal or not.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Software piracy, in my mind, is similar to finding a 'secret' Mrs. Fields cookie recipe on the Internet. Few people, I would imagine, would have a problem with cooking a batch of these cookies in their house and eating them - even shring them among friends. The person wouldn't open a store to sell them, but might even pass along the recipe to a few close friends.

So, I might find certain 'files' on the Internet, burn them at home using my computer and my CD-R's and ejoy them by myself or with friends with little care for the copyright owner of that work (like the recipe). I don't purchase the files, like the overpriced cookies, with great frequency, but I do on occasion make purchases.

And I feel just as bad about it as people eating the illicit cookies.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that people don't consider pirating stealing?

when i'm talking with my friends i always say right out that warez is stealing. and it angers me when they try to justify it. i know it's stealing, i just dont care...

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever watched a walkman play a music cd. the first track on the cd the disc is spinning rapidly. by the time you get to the last track on the cd it is spinning much slower. thus implying that cds are read from the center of the disc to the outer edge.

Re:Hard to do

[BIGmog]

It's as simple as this. If you like a game, buy it. Support the products you enjoy and more will follow.

Re:Hard to do

[moonsammy]

Now there's an interesting troll. By your reasoning television, movies, and music are all "like modern drugs" as well. They're forms of entertainment that are completely pointless. Oh, except for the fact that some people enjoy the hell out of them, and feel their lives are much improved because of them. Hell, sports could fit into the same boat, the only difference being those who actually participate in them get exercise. But there's really no reason to watch sports. Completely pointless. And what was the point of your reading a childish book? Couldn't reading be considered to be "like a modern drug" as well? I've been unable to stop since I started back in kindergarten! And church! I seem to recall hearing an insightful comparison between that and opium some time ago...

I've heard people diss video games as horrible things like this before. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're completely pointless. I would be sad to see video games disappear, and think my quality of life would degrade considerably. My fiance and I regularly sit around playing our GBA SPs together, and DDR is one of my favorite ways to work out. I've had loads of fun at LAN parties, or just playing some Bond on N64 with a few friends. I'll take my pointless quasi-drug over boredom and drudgery any day, thank you.

Oh, and I've probably gotten more entertainment value out of my $50 copy of Metroid Prime than you did out of any book you bought recently. I don't even want to think about how little I paid for Castlevania: Symphony of the Night per hour ;)

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

That's some funny stuff.

Comedy gold!

you're correct and you're funny, what a combo!

Re:Hard to do

[ChaosDiscord]

IMHO, you didnt save any money, you stole it.

Theft of product is an excellent way to save money. For example, shoplifting is a traditional way for kids to save money. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't save you any money. Heck, that's why you steal it.

Why is it that people don't consider pirating stealing?

Because it's not really theft. It's copyright infringement. When you infringe copyright you do not deny the original property owner access to their property. (If you steal my book, I can't read it any more. If you copy my book and return it, I can still read it.) If you get caught you'll be in civil court instead of criminal court. You'll only face fines instead of jail time. They're very different beasts. By using language that implies that these two very different things are the same you're encouraging incorrect and silly comparisons like the RIAA's extremely silly "Downloading music off the internet is just like stealing a CD from a store."

To be fair, that's why I refuse to consider the two thing equivalent. Some people don't see an equivalence because they want to justify to themselves doing something that is illegal and widely considered immoral. Don't get me wrong, I support copyright law and am against copyright infringement. But we need to educate people on why copyright infringement is wrong, not incorrectly label it as identical to theft.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it how you try to condemn people who justify piracy on a personal basis, and then what do you do? Try to justify piracy on a personal basis.

"IMHO, you didnt save any money, you stole it."

"Sometimes I just cant afford it, in which case I knowingly steal from the company that made the app (don't really copy games, as they are cheap enough to buy). Just don't try to justify piracy."

Even do it in the same paragraph. So if I get this straight..according to you, it's alright if I download Photoshop 7.0 because I can't afford it, but it's not okay if I download Photoshop 7.0 because I want to try it before buying it?

Can't believe bullshit like this gets moderated up. Not that I'd expect most moderators here to know a big word like, "irony."

Re:Hard to do

[scot4875]

About 2 posts down this thread, you said:

Let me make this as clear as possible to game hardware developers out there:

So long as your processor supports the jump assembly command, or your hardware uses standard CMOS/TTL voltages/IC's, your program/game can be hacked. I said 'can', because its all a matter of who wants to put the effort into it and not just the plain and simple fact that they can do it.

And now you're proposing a 'solution' to piracy? I came up with ways to start cracking your solution while I was reading it.

But that's completely besides the point, because you (and most other people) are missing the point of the kind of copy protection that Nintendo is going for here. Let me make this as clear as possible to you:

They want to stop casual piracy. Period. If you can discourage 90-99% of the population from trying to steal games, you've done your job. Personally, I think it sounds like a fairly discouraging process: going out looking for ISOs (a time-consuming process), then burning it to a mini-DVD, then modding your 'Cube to accept the mini-DVD.

It was much easier with the Dreamcast -- go get ISO, burn to CD, done. Not quite as easy with the Playstation: get mod chip, then burn a copy of any game. For the 'Cube, though, it's just not going to make much difference to most people. It's too much work. And that's all that matters to Nintendo.

--Jeremy

Re:Hard to do

[scot4875]

And we all know that the letter of the law is 100% accurate.

DMCA, anyone?

To me, this whole argument is more about respect for other people's work. While I respect that Miyamoto and Warren Spector are great game designers, and I want to compensate them for their time by paying for their creations, there are others who just don't understand or care what goes into these things.

I can afford the games I want to play -- I pay for them. I never have to justify my actions to *anyone* or argue that piracy "isn't technically stealing," because I'm not doing anything wrong.

--Jeremy

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

God, people will say ANYTHING just to convince themselves they are not stealing.

The game is INTELLECTUAL property. By making a copy, you are engaging in theft... "an unlawful taking of property."

You end up with the game which should have cost your money. Therefore you are depriving the copyright owner of his rightfully earned money. This IS theft.

Shit, I've pirated before. I just have enough balls to admit it. Some of you guys are in fucking cybernerd denial.

Re:Hard to do

[Overly Critical Guy]

There is hypotetical money being magically stolen, money that never was in the pockets of those who it is "stolen" from and does not en up in the pockets of the "thieves", and you wonder why people don't see it?

Download an album.

You know that $20 sitting in your wallet? It now belongs to the people who brought out that album you downloaded. But you're not going to pay it to them, are you? You're going to keep that $20 in your wallet.

You're stealing. Deal with it.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right about anything being hackable, but it's not always as easy as a simple "jump the disc check instruction". When data is encrypted and the disc contains the decryption key (which is almost always in a hard to duplicate area), you need to do a bit more work. Then there's CRCs of code sections to make sure they haven't been tampered with, obfuscated code to waste your time...

Re:Hard to do

[Overly Critical Guy]

You are an arrogant idiot.

Well, it's hard to argue with such incredible arguments.

Pirating IS NOT stealing. They are DIFFERENT crimes with DIFFERENT laws. However closely related they may be is irrelevant. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Overlooking your bizarre, frantic, foaming-at-the-mouth usage of caps lock, you are still wrong. I don't care about different laws.

If you get music you should have paid for, you are withholding payment of money owed to the people who brought that music to the public. You are stealing their profits. This is incredibly simple, but people like you need to justify it in your mind because you've grown accustomed to the convenience of downloading mp3s and ignoring the obvious theft involved.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It's difficult for you because you're used to justifying downloading music in your mind. You're used to the convenience.

ps-sorry it just really pisses me off when someone who doesn't know what they're talking about tries to definitively talk about something.

You and I both know exactly what I'm talking about and that I'm correct. I'm sorry it strikes such a nerve with you, but yes, you are stealing when you obtain music you should be paying for. There is always a theft involved--theft of intellectual property, theft of profit, and so forth. If you're going to reduce your viewpoint to "theft only occurs for physical shiny objects I can touch in my sweaty little palms" then you're purposely dumbing your viewpoint to justify the stealing going on.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

Theft deprives the original owner of the property use of said property.

Ever heard of theft of services? It's not a very difficult notion, but let's try a few simple examples to make sure you understand:

- You go to the doctor. He saves your life. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the doctor of any property.
- You go to your broker. He doubles your investment. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the broker of any property.
- You go to your lawyer. He prevents your ex from taking your house, kids, and savings. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the lawyer of any property.
- You go to work. You take credit for your friend's good idea and get promoted instead, because this does not deprive your friend of any property.
- You lift a game off IRC. It gives you pleasure for a week. You justify this because it does not deprive the retailer, wholesaler, publisher, and shareholders of any property.

Oh, and note "shareholders" may include the programmers and it may include yourself, if you have any mutual funds.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

You end up with the game which should have cost your money.

The same could be said for building a bookshelf I should have bought. The same could be said for taking a picture of a scene that O'Keefe painted. What about taking a picture of a painting? Is that theft? Humming a tune instead of buying a CD? Listening to the radio? Your theft definition falls apart pretty quickly, holmes.

Shit, I've pirated before. I just have enough balls to admit it.

Cough, AC, cough.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

Download an album.

You know that $20 sitting in your wallet? It now belongs to the people who brought out that album you downloaded.

Says who? Them? So what?? The definition of stealing isn't "not giving someone money when you really ought to". It's depriving someone of property.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

There is always a theft involved--theft of intellectual property, theft of profit, and so forth.

Depriving of profits is not the same as depriving of property. Sorry, man, I see where you're going with this one, but it's just not true. Yes, music pirates justify their actions to make themselves feel better, but they're still not stealing.

Re:Hard to do

[Metroid72]

Basically, whoever does it will be a Hacker G.O.D

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't have bought a PSX if I couldn't copy games for it. So in the end here were the end results for Sony and Co.:

1) I don't buy the system, don't pirate games. Sony and developers get $0 from me.

2) I buy the system, mod it, copy a bunch of games and wind up buying a few dozen in the process. Sony and developers get close to $600 from me.

Which option is more profitable to them?

Re:Hard to do

[pHDNgell]

You go to the doctor. He saves your life. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the doctor of any property.

He spent a tangible amount of time (=money) working on you. He is very aware of the existence of that time and sees it gone.

You go to your broker. He doubles your investment. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the broker of any property.

He spent a tangible amount of time (=money) working for you. He is very aware of the existence of that time and sees it gone.

You go to your lawyer. He prevents your ex from taking your house, kids, and savings. You stiff him on payment because this does not deprive the lawyer of any property.

He spent a tangible amount of time (=money) working for you. He is very aware of the existence of that time and sees it gone.

You go to work. You take credit for your friend's good idea and get promoted instead, because this does not deprive your friend of any property.

He spent a tangible amount of time (=money) working on that idea. He is very aware of the existence of that time and sees you receiving the benefits from that work where he is not.

You lift a game off IRC. It gives you pleasure for a week. You justify this because it does not deprive the retailer, wholesaler, publisher, and shareholders of any property.

These people spent no effort on *YOU*, and have no way to tell who you are unless you tell them (or someone else finds them and lets them know they're infringing on your copyright).

In this situation, someone did some work and wants to see the benefits from that work amplified by everyone who comes in contact with the work. If someone comes in contact with the work and they do not receive the benefits from it, they have not lost a resource to that person (i.e. the doctor could've saved someone else's life who'd have paid).

This is copyright infringement. There is no service to steal, and there is no item taken away from the original owner. This is a different crime.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

You "steal" money that they don't have? But you don't end up with money yourself...makes no sense. There is hypotetical money being magically stolen, money that never was in the pockets of those who it is "stolen" from and does not en up in the pockets of the "thieves"

Clearly, this is because money is the only thing in this world that has value, right? So the next time you go to the doctor, don't pay. The next time you ride the subway, don't pay. The next time you take guitar lessons, don't pay. This "magical money" was never theirs, so you're obviously not stealing anything.

Let's take a different example. You write a book. Random House offers you a $200,000 deal plus royalties. But a day before you sign the contract, I release the book onto the web so Random House cancels the deal. Now look me in the eye while I laugh at your misery, and tell me that you have not been deprived. Tell me the people downloading your book owe you nothing.

This is the kind of double talk only an economist or lawyer can follow.

Right, because once again "money" refers only to cash, and never investments, potential earnings, opportunity costs, interest, or capital. Yes, this is economist vocabulary, but I'm not an economist. I'm an average joe who understands that ignoring how the world actually works is a good way to be penniless and bitter when I retire.

Do you think the $10 trillion US economy is based on goods? 80% of it is based on services -- things you claim cannot be stolen because they do not represent money.

and you wonder why people don't see it?

Because the majority of people believe that deliberate ignorance is the same as intelligent understanding? If you want to live in a goods-based economy where you don't have to think about such difficult concepts, move to Angola or some other country where war has regressed the economy to 19th-century standards. (Most other "third world" nations won't fit the bill. They're all services-based too.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

"you are still wrong. I don't care about different laws."

Boom. There goes your entire argument since this entire issue is a legal one. Thanks for coming out, maybe you'll get a parting gift before the door hits you in the ass.

Re:Hard to do

[nekura]

Yeah, but the unofficial discs are really just an official game (in the Gamecube's case, NHL Hitz, for PS2 it was Crazy Taxi) and the unofficial disc smashed together.

Re:Hard to do

[bhtooefr]

Do you have two blank CDs of the same type and brand (for example, two PNY 700MB 16x gold CD-Rs, or two Memorex 700MB 4x CD-RWs)? Burn ONE, and look at BOTH. The color of the one you DIDN'T BURN is the same color as the blank area on the one you DID BURN. Or, if you've only got one, use DirectCD (if you have it, but if you don't, Roxio has trials of Easy CD Creator), burn only 100MB to the disc, and when you finalize, leave the disc open for further writing. Look at it once it's finalized. Pop it back in and burn another 100MB, rinse, lather, pop it out, and look again. The burned area, on the INSIDE, will be larger!

Re:Hard to do

[Ultra64]

No, it does not spin backwards.

Re:Hard to do

[bhtooefr]

What if it's a demo for a GC game that ISN'T ON THE DEMO UNITS? What if it's Windows XP? (ok, MS DOES offer a demo of that, but AFAIK you have to buy the Office 11 eval kit for $30, which also has WS2K3 included and all of the Office Server crap.

Re:Hard to do

[siriuskao]

if you can't afford it, don't use it.

Re:Hard to do

[bhtooefr]

Umm... The artists don't get nearly all of that $20. THEY deserve it. If you want to pay them, go to a damn concert or find their e-mail and PayPal it to them, don't buy one of their CDs.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

The Dreamcast had a ton of games in the US. Infact the DC did the best in the US.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

Since I wouldn't have purchased the game anyway, I'm not depriving the company of anything, right? So is this theft?

The only case in which you're not a thief is when you have ripped off a game that you would never want to play. This is the only justifiable use of "try before you buy." There is no such thing as "try and see if it's worth buying but keep playing anyway." If the game is worth playing at all then it has some kind of value to you. Perhaps you don't think it has $50 worth of value. But clearly you think it's worth a 30-minute download and a $0.50 CDR. So how much time, effort, attention, and materials are you willing to pay?

But here's a better question: if copying games were completely impossible -- such as during that brief span in history when a CD-ROM was bigger than anyone's hard drive -- then how much would you pay? I claim that your criteria for "definitely would not have purchased" is inseparable from your ability to get that software without purchasing it. Which means using that as justification is pure circular reasoning.

If you had to buy games, you might continue to claim they're not normal goods, but you would undoubtedly treat them that way when deciding what you're willing to buy. It's about time to put this tired old argument to rest.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Scrameustache]

Download an album. You know that $20 sitting in your wallet? It now belongs to the people who brought out that album you downloaded.

Hell no.
The music belongs to the people who "brought it out", that's a given.
They choose to profit from this music they created and own by releasing it as "albums", a format of their choice. The production of said album incurrs expenses, such as printing, shipping, etc. This sets the base price for the album, then they factor in their desired profit, and set the retail price for the album.

That 20$ (we'll keep that nice, even number) is the retail price. That is money I would owe those people if I were to aquire a "physical album", by, say, walking into a store and walking out with the album.

Now, we'll go the Apple way, and declare that a "d/l album". It is $9.99, since its base price involves less expenses (printing, shipping, etc). So per your logic, I would owe them 10 bucks (I'll be generous and throw in an extra penny) if I d/l an album.

So you greatly exagerated the hypotetical money I hypotetically owe them. Its 10, not 20 bucks.

But you're not going to pay it to them, are you? You're going to keep that $20(sic) in your wallet. You're stealing. Deal with it.

But, I'm in canada, they won't take my money for a d/l album (wich is what I want, if I'm downloading it in the first place). Now, I could let them dictate that I buy a physical album at an inflated price (they are stealing from me there, bub), or I could aquire the product I want (a d/l album). I take nothing away from them, my downloading did not use their bandwith it did not cost them anything at all when I do these things. They are not accepting money, they could take my money, but they don't want it.

I am not stealing, because they did not lose anything.

The fact that there exist a similar product at an inflated price has no impact on wether I was stealing or not (in your d/l scenario), because it is not the same product that I aquired. It is irrelevant, the fact that they want to force me to buy it only means that they are bullies, not that I am a thief for not doing so.

And, once and for all:
Stealing is taking something away from someone else without permission. It is illegal.
Downloading copyrighted material without permission takes nothing away. It is also illegal.
2 different things.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

Depriving of profits is not the same as depriving of property. Sorry, man, I see where you're going with this one, but it's just not true.

I can hardly believe I am reading this.

Okay then. If depriving of profits isn't theft, what the hell do you call it?

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never paid for a video game that cost more than ten dollars. If I want to play it, I download it. That doesn't change the fact that I would never pay more than ten dollars for a video game.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's not as simple as that, or these arguments would never take place. You see it as black & white, but others can see a bigger picture that has shades of grey. The world is a complicated place, and you can't state absolutes like you just tried to.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

Intellectual property is not a service.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD UP!! INSIGHTFUL +5!!!

God, could you say any LESS in that waste of a post? Posts like yours justify a stronger form of moderation on slashdot: DELETION.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

Depriving of profits. Just what I said. Lots of things can deprive you of profits. If another company independently creates a patentable idea at the same time you do, and gets the patent first, did they steal your idea? Do you steal theirs when you continue to produce your product, based on the now-patented idea? No, but they have deprived you of profit by patenting the idea first. When I read a book at Barnes and Noble, and leave without buying it, but the book stays on the shelves, have I stolen from the author? Is Barnes and Noble stealing from the author? No, they are just depriving the author of profit. If I make a competitive product, and it becomes successful, does it steal from other companies in the same market? No, but it does deprive them of profit.

Sad when merely the notion of a company not making money alone is considered stealing.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

If I make a competitive product, and it becomes successful, does it steal from other companies in the same market?

You are trying to equate:

A. Taking my friend's product and paying him
B. Taking my product and not paying me

This is the fallacy in all of your examples...

Sad when merely the notion of a company not making money alone is considered stealing.

...strawman notwithstanding.


--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

The artists don't get nearly all of that $20.

The artists get a hell of a lot more money from the RIAA than they do from the people who download music through Kazaa.

p2p is not inherently bad. But stealing is.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of a definition, stolen from www.m-w.com: "synonyms STEAL, PILFER, FILCH, PURLOIN mean to take from another without right or without detection. STEAL may apply to any surreptitious taking of something and differs from the other terms by commonly applying to intangibles as well as material things .

Re:Hard to do

[andrewski]

The last estimate of released PSX games I heard was 4500 worldwide.

Kinda makes Nintendo, Sega, and M$ seem like the bastard stepchildren of the videogaming industry, where Sony is the 'momma bear.'

Re:Hard to do

[yerricde]

If you like a game, buy it.

What should I do if I like a game but the copyright owner is no longer having copies printed?

Re:Hard to do

[what the dumple is]

i look forward to people figuring out stuff related to the gamecube. just think of the possibilities if you could hack zelda wind waker. why did nintendo make it so you cannot skip through stupid conversations and pointless cut scenes? why does the game tell you how to use treasure maps, keys and the like every time you collect one? like we haven't figured that out after collecting 40 treasure chests and countless keys!! you could fix all these annoyances and more. that's the beauty of it all. i love roms and emulators and being able to change the game to how i would like it. of course, that's a loooooooooooong way off with the game cube. i would totally download zelda if i didn't have a way to get the data from my game cube directly.

Re:Hard to do

[aafiske]

Well, okay, true. But I think the spirit of the parent's post was 'why don't people consider pirating (copyright infrigement) _wrong_?'

Which goes unanswered. I think that people just want to rationalize not having to pay $50 for a game. (or they don't want to wait a year for it to hit the $10 bins.)

I suppose I'd buy the 'I want to try it out first' especially if you have a history of hardware problems with your computer or something, but the cynical side of me says that the majority of people never say 'sweet, it works, let me go buy it now'. (some do, fine, fine, that's not my point.)

Anyways.

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

Yeah, but how many albums does Slim Dusty have out? Does that make HIM the "poppa bear" of music? Quantity and quality are two very different things.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

...And that certainly reinforces the fact that you are a leech and a thief. It's the morons like you that fuck it up for everybody.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

Intellectual property is not a service.

So it's goods, then? That means it can be stolen.

Oh, but it's not tangible? Then it's a service.

Flippancy aside, your position basically boils down to this: creative works are Platonic ideas so making copies cannot be wrong.

This is true only in the strictest sense. If you recast authors as discoverers rather than creators, you are still paying for the service of excavation. Nothing changes. If authors didn't perform this service, these "free ideas" would never see the light of day.

This is a contract of compensation. You're not paying for the idea, you're paying the author for the service they perform -- whether you call that creation or discovery. That's why copyrights expire. (Except they don't, and I do think that's both illegal and immoral; but this is orthogonal to the present argument.)

Perhaps you'd like to return to the bad old days, when the only people who produced creative works were either miserably poor or independently wealthy. I hope I don't have to mention how much more creative work has been produced thanks to copyright principles. Mozart might have survived to write more music if the opera houses across Europe that played to packed audiences for months at a time... ever gave him a single penny.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[UserGoogol]

Ah. Didn't close the italic tag. That's odd. Oh well. Not a bad post, though.

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

Congratulations. I've seen some fucking bad analogies on Slashdot, but these are by far, the biggest stretches i've seen here. Well done, fine sir.

The same could be said for building a bookshelf I should have bought.
No, it would be like if only one person in the world invented, then made a bookshelf and you took one of them, copied it and gave them away.

The same could be said for taking a picture of a scene that O'Keefe painted.
No it couldn't, because the photo would be NOTHING like the original photo in any way. Yes, the image may be similar, but it would have no other properties in common with the original work.

Listening to the radio?
Again, terrible analogy. Radio stations purchase certain rights that allow them to freely play the songs over the airwaves (under certain conditions), which means that the cost is covered by the station, not the end user.

It's got nothing to do with balls. Fuck, I'd be very suprised if any of us here had no tunes on their box, but to try and justify that copyright infringement by playing semantic word games is just a cop out. It's wrong, and we know it. Just some of us chose to break those rules. Don't pretend there is nothing wrong with ingringement though, because you are only kidding yourself.

Re:Hard to do

[Guppy06]

"Nintendo does it vice-versa and write the data to the disks from the outside in."

Like a record! Who could possibly guess that? :)

Re:Hard to do

[Registered Coward v2]

Getting an ISO wouldn't be impossible - the real problem is that you have to rig your 'Cube to read it, as GCN discs spin *backwards*.

Only in the southern hemisphere...

Re:Hard to do

[drunk_as_in_beer]

Download an album.

You know that $20 sitting in your wallet? It now belongs to the people who brought out that album you downloaded. But you're not going to pay it to them, are you? You're going to keep that $20 in your wallet.

You're stealing. Deal with it.

Bullshit. There are plenty of bands that put there entire album up for download, sometimes on their web site, sometimes through file sharing. I like the music enough, I will go see them live if I can and buy some of their albums. And who the fuck charges $20 for an album? Sheesh...

Re:Hard to do

[caouchouc]

They don't spin backwards, period. It's a silly rumour that keeps getting spread.

I really don't get why people keep clinging to this belief. Just pop open a running Gamecube sometime. You'll see the disc spinning clockwise (It's pretty safe to do this; the cube will simply complain via an on-screen message and spin down the disc).

Their copy-protection is actually rather simple... Instead of the standard DVD data format, they just use their own. Nothing but Nintendo systems could read it until now (and even then, I'll believe it when I see it). GC discs are otherwise completely normal mini-DVDs.

Re:Hard to do

[caouchouc]

No, that's not right.

That is not "theft" or "stealing". These two synonyms have a specific definition that does not apply to copyright infringement.
No matter what you might think, you cannot steal someone's profits unless you explicitly take liquid assets from them.

You can deny someone compensation (profits) through copyright infringment, and this is what copyright law exists to punish.

I'm sorry if you feel the phrase "copyright infringment" doesn't have the verbal weight, or bite, that the word "stealing" does... but calling it such is incorrect.

Re:Hard to do

[caouchouc]

Theft does not mean depriving the owner of value.

Right: All this talk about deprivation of value being equivalent to theft is fallacy. Often intentional dishonesty, even.

Theft means directly depriving the owner of the property in question:

theft

\Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.] 1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.

Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery.

(excerpt from dictionary.reference.com)

There are specific terms with specific laws to cover deprivation of perceived or possible value, precisely because it differs from theft.

Re:Hard to do

[dammitallgoodnamesgo]

In Europe, at least, Nintendo are trying their hardest to prevent import games being sold. In the UK it's (probably - no legislation, only a legal precedent) illegal to own an import game. No matter how honest you try to be it's illegal. They've kinda brought it on themselves...

Re:Hard to do

[dammitallgoodnamesgo]

If I make a competitive product, and it becomes successful, does it steal from other companies in the same market?

I'm sorry, you appear to be confused about the Games Industry being a competitive industry. Sega and Nintendo are convicted monopolists, just like everyone's favourite software company...

Re:Hard to do

[dhwebb]

I read this is what the Xbox does, reading outside of disc to inside. They said it was to get the maximum read speed. This makes sense since the outside spins faster than the inside.

Re:Hard to do

[sasami]

He spent a tangible amount of time (=money) working on you. He is very aware of the existence of that time and sees it gone.

Very good! You identified the theme. When you steal services, you are stealing someone's time. Now, note that time is not equal to money. Metaphor, y'know. Time is worth money. And time can be stolen. Yet time is not property. This is an interesting conundrum for the worn-out "It's not stealing if it's not property" argument.

When you copy my software, you are stealing my time. This is still true even if I didn't perform the service for you personally. You can adjust all of my examples if you like: fund manager for an investment bank; single court case with multiple plaintiffs; entire department takes credit for one person's work. There is a word for all this: freeloading. And freeloading is theft of service.

Freeloading is in fact one of the most basic and obvious forms of stealing service.

If you disagree with that, then stop paying taxes, and don't complain when the underfunded fire department can't save your burning house. Stop paying subway fares, and don't complain when timeliness and security go out the window.

What percentage of freeloading should be tolerated before it's considered detrimental to a service? The only rational answer is zero.

Freeloading is always going to happen. I don't much care, even if it affects my bottom line. But defending it is just petulant.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Hard to do

[Simon Garlick]

If there was ever a game that was worth FAR MORE than what I paid for it, it's Wind Waker. That game is a work of art.

Re:Hard to do

[jemecki]

So the next time you go to the doctor, don't pay. The next time you ride the subway, don't pay. The next time you take guitar lessons, don't pay. This "magical money" was never theirs, so you're obviously not stealing anything.

But when you don't pay for guitar lessons or the doctor, you're stealing their time and effort and their opportunity to see another student/customer. However, when you pirate a game, no extra time or effort put in.

Let's take a different example. You write a book. Random House offers you a $200,000 deal plus royalties. But a day before you sign the contract, I release the book onto the web so Random House cancels the deal. Now look me in the eye while I laugh at your misery, and tell me that you have not been deprived. Tell me the people downloading your book owe you nothing.

Well the same analogy holds true for someone trying-before-they-buy a game. If i weren't going to buy the book in the first place but downloaded because it was convenient for me to do so, i am not stealing any money.

Re:Hard to do

[andrewski]

HAH! I would argue that the S/N ratio of PS & PS2 games is a little better than Nintendo, much better than Sega and infinitely better than Microsoft.

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

Your kidding, right? How is that even mathematically possible with the thousands upon thousands of PS games out there, the majority of which fade into obscurity because they are so bad? I agree it's really out of Nintendo and Sony, but as somebody else stated above there are something like 4500 PS games and I doubt how many of them are quality games. But even if 250 of those PS games are top-notch (and thats exaggerating in a massive way) we're still talking only 1 in 18 games being any good, Nintendo however, may have a lot less releases, but the games they do release are mostly excellent. Out of the 212 games released so far for Gamecube, even if half of them are shit (again, exaggerating massively) that's still 1 in 2 titles being of a high quality. Compare that signal-to-noise ratio, if you will. HAH! I guess it's down to taste though, and all I know is I only own about 30 games for my PS2 and only 6-8 of those are any good, while the 20 or so I have for my GCN are mostly top quality titles. To each his own, I guess...

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in this case, dickhead. You want the game/music that has been identified for sale, you must pay for it. Everything else is an infringement of the law. Obviously some bands/developers give their shit away for free, and more power to 'em, but the law regarding the theft of intellectual property is pretty straight forward.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

That's completely beside the point. You infringe their copyright by copying their software. You are breaking the law. Tell yourself whatever you need to to sleep at night, just don't make out your doing Sony any favours.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

What, are you dirty that he hit the nail on the head? You filthy hippies want everything for free, and aren't prepared to pay for services/goods you want to use. I can't wait till you finish high school and try to run your own business.

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

Bullshit. There are plenty of bands that put there entire album up for download, sometimes on their web site, sometimes through file sharing.

That is a diversionary argument. It is the band's decision, not yours. If they want to put their own property up to share, fine, it's totally within their rights as the copyright holder. When you take tracks from an album meant for sale and trade them freely, that is copyright infringement. Don't try and spin it as something else.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

You are such a fool. Read the other post above yours for an example of why it's not always the way you *think* it is. You simply believe everything you've been taught as you grew up, apparently never questioning anything.

I pity you.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

The law as it is written means very little to me. Had laws not been created (and now purchased) by fools and twisted over the centuries, I might have some respect for them. I have ZERO problems sleeping at night for any law-related actions I may have taken during the course of the day.

I live my life according to my own set of morals, as I see the world. I do not blindly obey like people such as yourself. I do not easily buy into corporate bullshit as people like you seem to. Capitalism and money are not the be all and end all, or the way to judge your "success" like some idiots believe. When I do follow laws, it's because they exist for a reason and situation that I agree with. I stop at red lights because if I don't, I'm likely to slam into somebody. I don't speed very often because the speed limits are usually set logically for the surrounding area.

And the argument is not "beside the point" when the point is "why piracy is bad" in the first place. People claim it takes money away from others. I pointed out a situation where it did the opposite and never once did I claim that it always does the opposite. You choose to ignore the basis of the claim, and simply parrot some mundane drivel about "because the law said so!"

So go ahead and tell yourself that you're doing the right thing in life by obeying everything you're told to do. Maybe it helps you sleep at night...

Re:Hard to do

[Spokehedz]

Yea, I know itâ(TM)s not always that simple... there may be encryption to deal with... But not everyone on Slashdot is as knowledgeable as you are, and some don't even know what 'jmp eax' means.

And back to encryption for a second... It all has to be decrypted somewhere, right? I mean AFAIK the 'flipper' CPU doesnâ(TM)t have encryption built into the actual silicon of the chip, right?

If it doesnâ(TM)t, then its got to be decrypted somewhere before it gets to the CPU, and then its a simple matter of a chip in-between the lines of the CPU and whatever chip decrypts the data, telling it to run whatever code it receives--decrypted or not.

What Iâ(TM)m saying here is that unless there's PGP/RSA encryption built onto the die of the CPU (possible--it is a custom chip after all.) then we've got traces on the board that will contain decrypted data, and that the CPU has a similar ASM instruction set. Once we've got the place where the decrypted data goes into the CPU, we can make it do whatever we want.

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting an ISO wouldn't be impossible - the real problem is that you have to rig your 'Cube to read it, as GCN discs spin *backwards*. To play a burned disc, you'd have to either heavily modify your computer or your 'Cube, and in the end it would be cheaper to just buy the game rather than pirate it.

only on the south hemisphere :)

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not confirmed this myself, but supposedly it's not that the discs spin backwards,
it's that the laser starts reading the disc from the outside and works its way towards the center.

I'd explain this simply because there's less data in the inner parts of the cd, so reading the outer parts first and even fill up the inner part with crap data would ensure more data to be read
The dc does this aswell, the most inner part of the cd's are empty (except for a tiny bit of copy protection data)

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

And who the fuck charges $20 for an album?

I can tell someone hasn't been to a record store lately.
I consider $20 to be the average price. Less for popular ones, more for the harder to find ones.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

Congratulations. I've seen some fucking bad analogies on Slashdot, but these are by far, the biggest stretches i've seen here. Well done, fine sir.

You're going to be pretty ashamed to find out that none of those were analogies to file sharing. They were merely examples of depriving a company of profit in ways which are totally ethical. Your post was amusing, though. *chuckle*

Re:Hard to do

[FreakyDeaky]

so you basically mean turn all consoles into MACs. well granted that could solve alot of the piracy issues but how long till piracy people start pumping out code chips instead of mod chips then we might have access to all the games instead of just one. of course there might be a simple explanation to this that i have over looked. and doesn't anybody remember Conkers Bad Fur Day!!! that game was funky it was a drunken squirrel!

Re:Hard to do

[FreakyDeaky]

Nintendo will always be 'poppa bear' in my book i play more NES games then the next gen system games i own all three next gen systems and out of all of them i do like PS2 the best but if you take the two companies and compare them nintendo reigns supreme in my book. I mean all i should have to say is ZELDA and everybody should nod their heads and agree.

Re:Hard to do

[FreakyDeaky]

so your argument is that it's all right to steall expensive software from companies because you can't afford it but if you steal a 40 dollar game it's terrible becuase a person can afford it? I can't afford a Jaguar Doesn't mean I'm gonna go steal one. If you want to get all holy and pure with everyone either don't admit you steal $100s of dollars worth of apps or don't steall stuff.

Re:Hard to do

[drunk_as_in_beer]

I can tell someone hasn't been to a record store lately.
I consider $20 to be the average price. Less for popular ones, more for the harder to find ones.

I don't know what record stores you shop at, but where I live this is not the case. I have shopped at both small record stores and big chains like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc (many times this year). I have bought CDs from major labels and smaller labels. I have never paid more than $14-15 for a single-disc album on CD (before sales tax). Never. Maybe if you're buying something that is actually rare and out of print, you may have to pay that much. If you're paying $20 for a CD, you're shopping at the wrong places.

Lately, I have been buying my CDs at the shows I go to. I'm usually paying about $10. When I buy from a record store, the average price is around $12.

Re:Hard to do

[Bombcar]

Buy a used album.

You know that $15 you saved sitting in your wallet? It now belongs to the people who brought out that album you bought used. But you're not going to pay it to them, are you? You're going to keep that $15 in your wallet.

You're stealing. Deal with it.

Re:Hard to do

[Wog]

Rinse, THEN lather?

Sounds like you're asking for a nasty rash.

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

Ashamed? Not quite. Your post was specifically about how other forms of copying may or may not deprive the artist of money (and whether that constitutes theft), and then used bad analogies to identify other types of copying as not being theft.

What about taking a picture of a painting? Is that theft? Humming a tune instead of buying a CD? Listening to the radio? Your theft definition falls apart pretty quickly, holmes.
They all look and read like hypothetical alternatives to copying in a more abstract sense... Which is exactly the subject in question, whether or not file trading (in this case gamecube ISO's) constitute an illegal practice and what exactly is "copying".

Re:Hard to do

[andrewski]

Nintendo's ratio is about the same as any other company - 1 in 30. That's for the gold stuff. Everything else is dross, or a renter at best.

I consider myself a game freak but I am not happy playing all the drivel that comes out anymore. I just don't have time to play everything, so I only go for high quality shit. Not to demean anyone else's standards, but I am the sort of person who picks apart a game as I play it. There are a few titles that stand out as impressive, though.

There are PS1 & PS2 games (yes, both count together re: backwards compatibility of the console) that are obscure but highly sought after. There is virtually no aftermarket for 'last-gen' systems and especially games from other companies (sega being the exception, but until they make another console I will consider the DC to be their current gen console).

Re:Hard to do

[Anonymous Coward]

As an aside, Sony does have the edge in controller design. They are invincible, smooth, have 2 motors for vibration, and every button is analog (excepting [], [>, and the direction pad).

Re:Hard to do

[The_dev0]

So you're saying that out of Nintendo's complete game list of released titles there are only 7 good games? That's the answer the 1:30 ratio gives you... And I challenge that.

I consider myself a game freak but I am not happy playing all the drivel that comes out anymore. I just don't have time to play everything, so I only go for high quality shit. Not to demean anyone else's standards, but I am the sort of person who picks apart a game as I play it. There are a few titles that stand out as impressive, though.

Hehe, I'm in the very same boat. I own and play pretty much every console from the Vectrex onwards, but generally, I've always found Nintendo titles offer greater depth and variation in gameplay to their competitors. The gamecube is no exception.

Re:Hard to do

[PyroMosh]

They learned from that mistake. The Gamecube was designed from the ground up to be easy to develop for because of just that reason.

Re:Hard to do

[Computer!]

"Your post was specifically about how other forms of copying may or may not deprive the artist of money (and whether that constitutes theft)"

No, my post was about how just because something deprives someone else of money doesn't make it theft.

"They all look and read like hypothetical alternatives to copying in a more abstract sense"

But I thought they were "shitty analogies"? Maybe that's because they weren't analogies at all. They were just hypothetical situations in which a merchant would be deprived of revenue, which is what I said. Please don't argue with me about what I meant. I know what I meant. I wrote the damn post. Yes, it's possible that in that giant brain of yours that all of your friends keep complimenting you on, a misunderstanding occurred. Instead of trying to clear it up, you just went ahead and flamed me. Then, when I explained that you misunderstood my post, you counter that I misunderstood my own post. Just accept your mistake, and learn from it, instead of trying to turn it around on me.

News?

[richie2000]

So, there's an unconfirmed story that there may be illegal ISOs floating around that may or may not actually be playable at some time in the future. Or possibly already is, on some hardware. Maybe. Riiight.

Cmdr Taco, the NY Times has hacked your site!

Re:News?

[bigjnsa500]

Sounds like vapor warez to me

Re:News?

[richie2000]

Vapornewz, even. *Look, hot air!"

Let the scramble begin!

[geek4ever]

Wow everyone! Now that we have working Game Cube games (that we can't really access), we can begin the warez scramble! Woohoo! Looks like the pr0n will start flowing! (retched pop-ups)
Seriously though, I will be impressed when all of these next generation consoles can be correctly emulated.

Re:Let the scramble begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that we have working Game Cube games

This is extraordinary! The Game Cube can now run games? I bought a PS2 because I thought the Game Cube was a paperweight.

Re:Let the scramble begin!

[Cumstien]

There are emulators for everything from Atari to N64. I have patience, I'll just wait for a computer that can easily emulate a 64 bit game/graphics processor and someone else to extract the ROM.

"Can't someone else do it?" - Homer Simpson

P.S. If you like the game and console, buy it... yadda yadda yadda

Done before on Dreamcast

[Chris_Jefferson]

Opinion on IRC seems to be this was done in the same way as the Dreamcast, ie someone produces some method of getting code onto the gamecube which reads the disk and sends it out. Getting code onto the gamecube without Nintendo's permission has been previously shown to be possible by a number of cheat and "region avoiding" cheats. Therefore this part isn't too hard and to be honest it was only a matter of time. The much more serious problem is getting a disc of reasonable size that a gamecube can read to burn the games onto. Obviously it can be done but perhaps only on a large scale. I wouldn't hold my breath to the point where we are all burning gamecube games to be honest. Of course, in 4 or 5 years we'll all be playing gamecube emulators and then these rips will be in hard demand! Start hoarding now! :)

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[edwdig]

The rumor I've heard is as follows:

1. Get a GameBoy Player and a GBA Flash Rom cartridge
2. Load a special ROM onto the GBA cart
3. Run it on the GBA Player like a normal GBA game
4. The GBA cart will transfer data to GC's main memory
5. Press the reset button on the GC - this is a soft reset, it simply jumps to a fixed memory address, without reading off the disc at all
6. Game data can then be transferred thru the serial port on the bottom of the GC

The question is, is step #4 possible? The rest of the story is definately possible (if you don't believe step 5, put in Animal Crossing, wait til the title screen comes up, take out the disc, and press reset. You can still play, without any need to put the disc in again.)

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[binarytoaster]

(if you don't believe step 5, put in Animal Crossing, wait til the title screen comes up, take out the disc, and press reset. You can still play, without any need to put the disc in again.)
I've had the same game booted on several GCs before with that little trick. It comes from being an N64 game originally, so it's small enough to be entirely loaded in the GC's memory.

Which also explains why the graphics look a bit like canned ass.. Great game, though.

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[EvilSporkMan]

if you don't believe step 5, put in Animal Crossing, wait til the title screen comes up, take out the disc, and press reset.

And if you STILL don't believe it, get a game to crash (I had Metroid Prime do it while using a transport - prolly scratched disk) to where you get that buzz coming from the speakers (seen Xbox games [Morrowind] do this as well) and then try to reset the game. For those of us who are lazy, it won't work. ^_^

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[DrPascal]

While I think its a really interesting technique, I certainly hope this is kept under wraps for another few months ... Nintendo is releasing the Gameboy player here in the US next week, and if they held it on account of piracy, that would be terrible.

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[DrStrangeLoop]

The much more serious problem is getting a disc of reasonable size that a gamecube can read to burn the games onto.

there was a solution for loading cress-compiled binaries over ethernet on the dreamcast... i see no reason why this should not be possible with the GCs "broadband adapter" [sic], in theory at least...

--strangeloop

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[Anonymous Coward]

If piracy was *soooo* bad then Nintendo, the riaa_, and all others would all go out of business. Looks like they're not.

Pirates also buy some of their stuff legit. If someone wasn't going to buy a game in the first place no money was lost. That is the reality of it.

I'm going into the software business and piracy is just a fact of life. Face it, someone, somewhere is going copy stuff off. I have little problem with this because someone, somewhere, is also going to buy it. If this worries people so much then find a new trade.

As far as Nintendo goes, I've paid them thousands over the years for their products. Last I heard they were making money. I don't feel sorry for them.

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[edwdig]

Pirating Dreamcast games was easy. Look what happened to the system.

Re:Done before on Dreamcast

[Anonymous Coward]

Pirating games on the Playstation was even easier, a few simple solder points and a PIC and you could copy an original PSX disc like any other. Not like DC where you had to wait for groups to release the games. Look what happened to the system. It became one of the biggest sellers ever, put Sony to an observer to #1 player in the game, and spawned a sequel system that is again #1 in the business.

So your "observation" is worth shit, apparently.

Hmmm...

[morbuz]

So ISOs of gamecube games may have been released, they cannot be played yet, but may be playable on the Panasonic gamecube...

Is this supposed to be news?

Re:Hmmm...

[PeekabooCaribou]

"News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." Lest ye forget.

Re:Hmmm...

[the uNF cola]

So... where's the news? Where's the stuff? Or is this some sorta vaporware news? :)

Is this like venture capital?

Re:Hmmm...

[muffen]

Dude, seriously, you're wondering how to get these?

So far, rumor has it :) that you can find it of IRC, DirectConnect, Kazaa (even though most is crap and not the real thing) and private warez sites.

I haven't downloaded this myself, as I couldn't really care less, but I don't really agree with piracy on the GC.

I like the Nintendo games, and Nintendo is one of the gaming companies I would not like to see die. Seriously, who doesn't remember the original SMB?
Just thinking about ice climber, SMB, Zelda, Metroid, not to mention super bomber man on the SNES, makes me remember how good games used to be in regards to gameplay.

Coming to think about it, Nintendo owes me a lot of mis-spent time :)

Anyways, guess I should stop typing now :)

Re:Hmmm...

[the uNF cola]

No, I was wondering, where was the news. Not where are the goods ;P

"news" for nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, so allegedly there may be a gamecube warez site, but you have to be l33t to access it (did the slashdot editors confirm that?), and there may be a way to play them in the future.

I'd hate to see what stories got rejected!

Remember

[shaklee]

The same thing happened to xbox, the games were ripped for a while and then finally the modchips were made. Look where the xbox is now.

Re:Remember

[Oakey]

Erm, correct me if I'm wrong, but PC's won't read X-Box games. I thought the only way to rip X-Box games was with a mod-chip, and then ftp into yout X-Box and copy the files over?

Re:Remember

[shaklee]

I didn't say pcs would read them. BUT, the games were definitely ripped prior to anything like modchips came out. The tested them on developer xboxes as noted here at the bottom.

emulator?

[gTsiros]

Isn't it funny that there is still no emulator for the gamecube? I mean, it must be the only console without an emulator (and ps2?)...

writting emulators has become increasingly difficult over the years.

Gameboy emulators are a breeze (mostly due to the rather generic hardware). NES/SNES more difficult. N64 is very challenging.

Has anyone heard of even plans for a GC emulator?
I'm itching to play Metroid:Prime @1024x768 :DD

Re:emulator?

[Chris_Jefferson]

There is no real N64 emulator (only high-level ones which don't really work on most games).

The Saturn has only just recently got emulators that work well enough to play the games and modern computers are (almost) fast enough to play them.

Screen shots of DC are getting quite far along but the emulator isn't released or anywhere near playable speed.

There is no PS2 or X-box emulator that does much beyond display a title screen or two (this is still a major accomplishment, but not really good enough to play games)

So to be honest the fact there is no GC emulator isn't that suprising :) Now that there are isos floating around and espically if people can put their own programs on the GC (which REALLY helps in emulating machines) then we may see them start. I'll be very suprised if you can play GC games on your PC within 3 year tho

Re:emulator?

[tuffy]

Has anyone heard of even plans for a GC emulator?

Here's a very preliminary one. Of course, any current console requires *much* faster PC hardware than is currently available in order to emulate it properly. Even the existing N64 emulators use lots of "accuracy optional" HLE hacks in order to achieve decent speed. I'm sure by the time Gamecube emulation becomes viable, acquiring hacked ISOs of the mini discs won't be necessary - and Nintendo won't care quite so much since most everyone will have moved on to far better consoles than are now available.

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

That was either very subtly done or you don't realise yourself :)

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of who who still don't get it, this is a joke. If it isn't, then I want you to explain how I can play GameCube games on my Game Boy Advance, Atari 2600, WonderSwan, TI calculator, Tamagotchi, and digital camera.

Honestly, some of you people are so gullible, you make Michael Sims look as smart as me, Seth Finklestein, acclaimed freedom fighter.

Re:emulator?

[Squarewav]

looks like a hoax to me for a few reasons like this page

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy god, you're not very quick on the uptake, are you, kid? That site is completely, utterly, and 100% a parody site. Perhaps you should read the hidden text at the bottom of the site, look at some of the "screenshots" on some of the supposed hardware that it runs on, then put two and two together.

Re:emulator?

[anselmoo]

Have you considered the possibility that he was planting the joke himself? And you just ruined it for him?

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

GCubix always has been and always will be a joke, nothing more. If you look at the site in the previous post you will find screenshots of GCubix running on everything from PS2, XBox and PC to the Atari 2600, a TI-82 graphing calculator and ENIAC.

The Zelda ISO can be fully extracted, and has been verified to be legitimate as you can actually view all the text from the game, even some debug text not meant to be seen. As we speak people are writing software to extract textures, videos and sound, and tools for converting these to PC usable formats.

Thankyou StarCube for getting the GC scene underway, your dump has been extremely useful, even at this early stage.

Chalm0

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it isn't, then I want you to explain how I can play GameCube games on my Game Boy Advance, Atari 2600, WonderSwan, TI calculator, Tamagotchi, and digital camera.

Use gCubix of course. If you'd just bother to follow the links...

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo include an 'emulator' in the NGC sdk that's got about 70% functionality, but it's actually just a win32 reimplementation of the NGC libs. The idea was that you could start development on a PC using these libs and then recompile for NGC when your devkit turned up.

Off the top of my head, there's nothing unemulatable on the NGC though; the CPU is a PPC with some basic extensions, and the Nintendo emulator demonstrates that basic GPU emulation is possible (that's the one area that the 'emulator' genuinely emulates). The overall system architecture is very sensible - if the Saturn can be emulated then the NGC is definitely doable.

Re:emulator?

[McCart42]

I agree with you that it's gotten a lot harder for emulator programmers. However, I think the situation is even more bleak than you realize.

I have heard of emulators for these systems: MAME, NES, Gameboy, SNES, Sega Master System, Sega Genesis, several minor consoles and N64. I don't know of workable emulators for any console released in the past 10 years aside from the N64 (correct me if I'm wrong on this) - I've heard of projects for dreamcast and gamecube, but neither one actually works for anything significant yet.

So I'd say the current situation is far from Gamecube being the _only_ console which hasn't been emulated--rather, it seems to be a trend that it takes much longer for modern consoles to be successfully emulated due to their complexity. Even consoles as old as the Sega Saturn have proven very difficult to emulate. I mean, when you're working with single 8- and 16-bit processor architectures, you're dealing with a project for emulation that is similar to projects most students might tackle in their first college computer architecture class. However, more sophisticated architectures present enough of a challenge that most wouldn't even bother with the task.

Re:emulator?

[Peale]

I love how this was modded up as 'informative.' Did anyone actually check out this site before doing a mod? It should have been modded as 'funny,' as this site is a spoof. Check out the other link on the site:

http://benjamin.francois.free.fr/artwork/gcubix/mo rons.html

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

The minor consoles you mention would presumably include the Playstation and GBA then?

That aside, power != complexity. The Saturn is a complete mess, whereas the NGC is very sensibly laid out with a minimum of functional units. The only wart on the whole system is a bank of auxilliary RAM that the CPU can't access directly.

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the joke's been ruined. he's been modded +5 informative.

Re:emulator?

[222]

i had an n64 emu that ran just fine on my voodoo 2 a number of years ago....

Re:emulator?

[Echnin]

Eh... There are [url=http://www.zophar.net/n64.html]plenty[/url] of N64 emulators that work fine. Just a PSA. UltraHLE 2064, Project 64 and Nemu are the best ones. There are also a couple of open-source emulators out there.

Playstation and Nintendo 64 emulation is VERY easy. I managed to run Mario Kart 64 well enough to be playable on a machine with a Pentium 166, 32 MB of RAM and a Voodoo Banshee with UltraHLE in early '99...

Re:emulator?

[Chris_Jefferson]

However, they all use HLE (high level emulation) so have to be altered on a game-by-game basis (look at the ".ini" files that are famous for N64 games.. there is a game-specific hack or twenty for every single game). Some day someone will write a "real" N64 emulator that doesn't require these hacks.. but they haven't yet.

UltraHLE was worst, as it almost reinterpreted the code.. what you saw on the screen has almost no relation to what you would see on a real N64.. admitidaly it was actually much better which can be considered cool, but not "emulating".

Chris

Re:emulator?

[coandco]

There is no real N64 emulator (only high-level ones which don't really work on most games).

Umm... excuse me?

There is a very good open-source emulator that can play pretty much every game out there. There are a couple of exceptions, of course, but certainly a large majority of the games out there can be played. Project 64.

Clint

Re:emulator?

[PainKilleR-CE]

From the source code (yes, I was bored, but it really is a rather elaborate joke):

button =
gtk_button_new_with_label
("You are a moron. Want to play GameCube games ? Buy one.");

Re:emulator?

[droberge]

You're wrong. Playstation emulation is possibly more advanced than N64 emulation; it's just that the games are so much bigger. See here for a usable PSX emulator.

Re:emulator?

[Anonymous Coward]

HLE _is_ as 'real' as low-level emulation. Whatever works, works. And recompiling the native code in the games to Intel code is incredibly smart, not something that disqualifies the emulator from being 'real'.

And as for emulators needing twenty 'hacks' for every game: This is wrong. The best all-round N64 emulator is Project64. It has _settings_ for each game, but byte-poking type hacks for only a handful out of maybe a hundred games. A dozen settings for a hundred games? Not bad at all, IMHO.

Low-level emulation of the N64 is simply not feasible and it also simply doesn't make sense. In 20 years it will be possible - PCs will be fast enough then. But why wait? Play now!

What someone needs to do is open the chip packages (other than the CPU) in an N64 and read out the gates so emulator writers really know what is going on in the machine. The way the video plugin authors improve the emulation now is mind-bendingly tedious - using a real N64 to see what such-and-so series of commands does and then emulating it. Wow. It is amazing how much work has gone into the video plugins. Too bad most are closed source.

Re:emulator?

[MMaestro]

I have heard of emulators for these systems: MAME, NES, Gameboy, SNES, Sega Master System, Sega Genesis, several minor consoles and N64. I don't know of workable emulators for any console released in the past 10 years aside from the N64 (correct me if I'm wrong on this) - I've heard of projects for dreamcast and gamecube, but neither one actually works for anything significant yet.

Addition: the MSX, Jaguar, every Gameboy version (regular, color, advance), NeoGeo (though that -could- be considered MAME), PS1, Gamegear, and the Sega Master System along with others. Theres a whole slew of them out there, you just never hear about them because the system is either unpopular, too old, or it managed to pass by undetected. Check out www.zophar.net for some emulation news, though it doesn't actually host any of the emulators or roms so some links may be down.

Re:emulator?

[CTho9305]

HLE is emulating. As long as the final behavior is the same, you have a true emulator. What you seem to be describing is a simulator - something that works exactly like an N64 at the lowest levels... which just isn't possibly without MUCH faster hardware.

Now I need to buy a GameCube

[rickthewizkid]

...I only buy a system when I can get Zelda for it for less than retail. For some reason, the Funco's near where I live don't have any used copies yet.

Of course, I can see it now;

......UCF Presentz.......
...A Gamecube Release....
...Zelda: Wind Walker....
....For [ ]PC [ ] MAC....
....[ ]PS2 [ ]X [X]GC....

but then, I haven't been on the warez boards for a long, long time. Do they still use the FILE_ID.DIZ?

...Just my can't-logon-unless-you-have-a-14.4-modem's worth
RickTheWizKid

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, file_id.diz is still in use. Which is cool, 'cause I'm the guy who originated it. ;)

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[TimeZone]

What, you haven't seen the commercials? You can get Zelda free w/ GC now...

TimeZone

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[binarytoaster]

Hell, file_id.diz has been in almost every file I've downloaded since I started using PCs. I've never understood what .diz stood for though: is it "distro" or something?

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Enrico Pulatzo]

Well, it's free with the gamecube right now, which gives us two possibilities: 1.) you're waiting to be paid to play zelda or 2.) you didn't know about this offer--go get a gamecube.

The gamecube zelda is among the best of the series.

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[ProfKyne]

...I only buy a system when I can get Zelda for it for less than retail. For some reason, the Funco's near where I live don't have any used copies yet.

I guess that means that it's a pretty good game. Maybe you might want to think about paying for it?

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[SuperDuG]

Google Cache

All the info you'll ever need about FILE_ID.DIZ

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Jaysyn]

I don't know where you're at but Wal-Mart was giving away WindWalker with purchase of a GC.

(p.s. don't bitch at me for going to Wal-Mart, it's the *only* store to get console stuff in the town I live.

Jaysyn

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Anonymous Coward]

UCF releasing games! :) -snicker-

Yep, you've been out for awhile.

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Anonymous Coward]

yep

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Anonymous Coward]

gamecube zelda is quite possibly the best of the series, although I'm still thinking A Link to the Past might be better.

To be honest, i was shocked & horrified when I saw the 10/10 grade printed onto the case. Two hours later, I realized why they had the guts to do it.

-r

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Suppafly]

but then, I haven't been on the warez boards for a long, long time. Do they still use the FILE_ID.DIZ?

No, generally they use something to the order of
gmenmeabr[grpnmeabr].nfo, but the concept is the same.

Re:Now I need to buy a GameCube

[Forkenhoppen]

Someone should tell Starcube that their FILE_ID.DIZ file isn't fully compliant..

10 lines or less of text? less than 45 characters long? They're not even trying! For shame, Starcube, for shame!

Talk about productivity-based content!

[messiuh]

I didn't know Slashdot was getting into the warez scene! Finally, S/ashd0t 1s l33t!

6/15/2004: AIDs has been cured with new mega-computer cluster kept cold in Bill Gates' refrigerator.

6/16/2004: New Lemmings ISO released by raz0r. Check it 0ut at is0z.slashdot.org!

Re:Talk about productivity-based content!

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, S/ashd0t 1s l33t!

j00 4r3 n07 1337

Re:Talk about productivity-based content!

[kurosawdust]

6/16/2004: New Lemmings ISO released by raz0r. Check it 0ut at is0z.slashdot.org!

I actually want to see that topic site come about. Not for want of pirated software, you understand, but rather I want to see if they can top this ungodly color scheme.

Re:Talk about productivity-based content!

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me, but there are only 12 months in a year.

Re:Talk about productivity-based content!

[ketamine-bp]

In other news, slashdot is better phrased as 5/45hd.7 in this context...

Seems real

[ymgve]

It has to be, since nForce has its own category for them now.

Re:Seems real

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not seeing & believing as nforce posts nfo's first, and then later nukes the bad ones (but there isn't really anyone who can test these yet).

Re:Back-ups, people.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the term is actually "pro boner"

Nintendo does it again

[stephenry]

I loved Nintendo when i was a kid, and i still think they release some of the best games on the market. But when it comes to shooting themselves in the foot, they never learn.

They released the N64 as a cartridge based system to prevent piracy; but in doing so alienated their 3rd party developers and customers. Not only where the games far more expensive to produce, they could not support the wealth of Video and Music easily contained on a CD.

With the GameCube, they decided -again- not to go for the mainstream option and instead use small psuedo-DVD's -and for what? The only thing the have been successfull in achieving is eliminating any wavering interest in the gamecube as a competitor to the "home-entertainment style" PS2, whilst at the same time, retaining the piracy that they went to so much effort to prevent.

Steve

Re:Nintendo does it again

[brucmack]

There is a performance gain from the smaller format... they can spin faster, thereby reducing load times. I've definitely noticed a difference between the platforms in this area because of this.

Also, this time they have not really alienated any developers, because they are still using the same kind of format, just in a smaller size. Of course it means you can't play DVDs in it, but if Nintendo wanted to, they could presumably release an add-on to go on the bottom that would do this.

As for piracy, that remains to be seen. Presumably less people can burn the little discs than regular sized ones.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

The N64 failed to attract 3rd-party developers because

1) the development tools were only available on hella-expensive SGI machines

2)Cartridges cost much more than CDs to produce. Developers had a choice between producing for a cartridge that cost $25 (or more, depending on the size of your game) and could be sold at $50 or a CD that cost .50 and could be sold at $50.

Loading time for the CD-based consoles, especially the Playstation was/is pathetic. That's an indignity that game players had to suffer so that games could be produced cheaply. Nintendo found that compromise unacceptable, and while it hurt them, it sure didn't kill them.

The Gamecube development system is supposedly more reasonably priced, and Nintendo is working more actively with developers (there was a lot of diplomacy involved in getting Square back on board). MiniDVDs are not significantly more expensive than regular DVDs, so the enormous cost differential that kept developers off the N64 is simply not there.

The only disadvantages to the miniDVD format are
1)Developers can't pack a lot of extra features into the disc

2)Easy to lose/break.

The gamecube is a great system, "mainstream" or not. You'll find that it has a ton of good games, which should be more important to a gamer than "market positioning".

Re:Nintendo does it again

[jidar]

Sorry no. Gamecube piracy has been and still is nonexistant. This is after what, 2 years from release? Meanwhile the Xbox and PS2 have warez scenes that are so big they compete with porn on sheer volume sent over Usenet. I would say that Nintendos plans for keeping piracy off of the Cube has worked. The only question is how did it affect sales...

Re:Nintendo does it again

[bertrandom]

Admittedly, having the ISOs is the first step to burning and playing the games (e.g. Dreamcast, Xbox), but the piracy hasn't been retained. I can't think of any case of the Gamecube actually been pirated, except maybe the Panasonic Cube, and that is such a minority that it wouldn't even factor in to Nintendo's revenues. Nintendo, as far as I can see, succeeded in stopping piracy for their latest system, which can't be said for PS2 or Xbox. I'm not saying that the N64 wasn't a piece of shit, it was, but half the time the stuff on PS2 and Xbox games are filler anyways, and they remake the exact same game 50 times. There's only so many times I can play a FPS.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[sharlskdy]

Given that XBox and GameCube are slugging it out for second place, I wonder if the lack of piracy has adversely affected sales?

Re:Nintendo does it again

[zudo]

How you can call the machine that played host to Super Mario 64, Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time a piece of shit is completely beyond me...

Re:Nintendo does it again

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Excuse me? They made the N64 cart based to prevent piracy? What the hell are you smoking? Nintendo should know that cart based != pirate proof. Look at the NES. Simply one of the most pirated consoles. Not just the console itself(There are dozens of different NES clones that do play real NES games), but the millions of pirate NES carts out there.

Not to mention the bit of SNES and GB piracy that went on...

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

They released the N64 as a cartridge based system to prevent piracy; but in doing so alienated their 3rd party developers and customers. Not only where the games far more expensive to produce, they could not support the wealth of Video and Music easily contained on a CD.

I didn't realize that piracy was the reason that Nintendo chose to continue using the cartridge format for N64... I could have sworn that there was a NES/SNES piracy scene prior to the N64's release. I think that the biggest argument that Nintendo was trying to push at the time was that cartridges were the better format because load times were nil... or something like that anyways.

With the GameCube, they decided -again- not to go for the mainstream option and instead use small psuedo-DVD's -and for what? The only thing the have been successfull in achieving is eliminating any wavering interest in the gamecube as a competitor to the "home-entertainment style" PS2

Nintendo's a game company -- why would they want to compete with the "home-entertainment style" PS2? It would be different if there were Nintendo DVD players or Nintendo stereo recievers, but there aren't, so it doesn't make much sense for them to try and make a hybrid system and sneak into that market. You're right that if you're in the market for both a home console and a DVD player, you might choose to purchase either the XBox or PS2 because either one can fill both roles, but I wonder how often the decision comes down to that factor alone.

whilst at the same time, retaining the piracy that they went to so much effort to prevent.

Their choice of format has been successful. The XBox and GC were released only a week apart and the XBox warez scene is chugging ahead, full steam, while people interested in pirating GC games are only just now revealing that they're making headway. It may only be a matter of time before the rest of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place for GC pirates, but Nintendo's still ahead of the game -- their's is the only home console system that's not swarming with pirates.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[fondue]

OK: Please show me a counterfeit GameCube game.

In HK, organised piracy is rife for PS2 and Xbox titles, but non-existant for the GC. Hardly what I would call shooting oneself in the foot.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

"There is a performance gain from the smaller format... they can spin faster, thereby reducing load times."

But their radius is smaller, meaning a lower tangential velocity on the outer rim compared to a larger disc. Smaller disc is NOT a speed advantage in this situation. Loads times can be manipulated through other means, like compressing the data, or through logical layout of data on the disc in the same order it is to be loaded. This is likely what N is doing on the GC. Likely they HAVE to compress everything anyways, since they sacrifice storage space by using their smaller discs.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

"filler anyways, and they remake the exact same game 50 times"

You mean like 'ol N does with Mario, Donkey Kong, X-character Kart racing, Zelda, and Metroid?

That should be their slogan:

"Same 'ol Shit for the Last 20 Years!"

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nintendo's a game company -- why would they want to compete with the "home-entertainment style" PS2?"

The same reason they went from a card company to a video game maker: It brings in money!

It would have made complete sense for them to do something like that.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[bertrandom]

I had a N64 copier, so I played more or less every N64 game in existence. The only ones I thought were good were Goldeneye, Mario Kart, Mario Party 2, and Dr. Mario 64. The rest of them were pretty nauseating and rehashing each other. There were like 50 Mario 64 clones for N64, and 50 Goldeneye clones for N64, and they were all horrible. When a system has 4 good games, it's a piece of shit. Look a the SNES, or the Dreamcast if you want to talk about a good system. There were dozens of good games for those.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[brucmack]

Yeah, but consider the fact that a half or quarter full X-Box disc might only have data in the same radius as a GC disc.

Re:Nintendo does it again

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmm, they released their games in cartridge form because at the time the CD Player based consoles had too much loading time.

Blanks?

[Bowdie]

www.hobbymagic.com

3" Mini DVD-R, 1.5GB/25min
Write-once format DVD, For Data / Audio / Video use, Full compatibility with all writers and players w/ 650nm laser, High capacity and data transfer rate, portable and easy to transport, Long-term data archiving, compatible with Nintendo Game Cube, Playstation 2, Xbox. Price start from $8.00/pc.

Re:Blanks?

[cybermace5]

Maybe another approach: clamp a stack of regular DVD blanks together on a length of all-thread, place in an engine lathe, and spin down to mini-DVD size.

Of course I don't know if any special configuration of the media is required on the outer edge of the disc.

Re:Blanks?

[jbfaninmo]

The Gamecube media isn't mini-DVD, its a format known as GameCube Optical Disc(GOD :) ) and was developed by the hard to spell parent company of Panasonic..

To play pirated games you'd have to find some way get the GameCube read an alien format, and spin the disc the otherway. The Gamecube normally spins its disc backwards.

I think it would just be easier to buy the game...

Re:Blanks?

[operagost]

-The parent company of Panasonic is "Matsushita".
-The drives don't spin backwards. They may read from the outside in, however.

Re:Blanks?

[bedouin]

Blah, at $8 a CD and the aggravation of leeching a GC ISO off some warez channel I'd rather just pay the $40 for a legitimate copy. Especially for someone like me that only plays 3 or 4 games heavily during a console's life anyway.

Re:Blanks?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's so crazy it just might work! Let me be the first to give you $1000 to buy a large enough spindle of DVD blanks to find out!

On second though.... mmmmnahhhh...

Shocking News, This Just In!!

[wfberg]

Proprietary Copy Protection System Announced "Broken" By Nefarious Hackers!

Film At 11.

This could go several directions...

[emo boy]

On one hand this could help make the GameCube more popular, which it is bound to do if mod chips and ripped games are released, then this could mean more games available and better games available due to the increased interest.

On the other hand this could kill sales of the GameCube because of the piracy and the already small library of decent games for the system. I for one hope the first is true because I think the system has amazing potential.

Re:This could go several directions...

[Erasmus Darwin]

"On one hand this could help make the GameCube more popular, which it is bound to do if mod chips and ripped games are released, then this could mean more games available and better games available due to the increased interest."

I think you're being overly optimistic here. Modchips may increase interest in the physical console hardware, but the increased hardware sales likely won't be backed up with increased software sales. If someone goes through the trouble of modchipping their console, then they're going to want a return on their investment in the form of free games.

Re:This could go several directions...

[scot4875]

On the other hand this could kill sales of the GameCube because of the piracy and the already small library of decent games for the system. I for one hope the first is true because I think the system has amazing potential.

Small library of 'decent' games? Amazing 'potential'?

Luigi's Mansion
Super Monkey Ball 1/2
Pikmin
Smash Brothers: Melee
Sonic Adventure
RE 1/0
Bomberman Generations
Eternal Darkness
Mario Sunshine
Animal Crossing
Metroid Prime
Zelda: Wind Waker
Skies of Arcadia

Those are just off the top of my head, and there are several I've left out intentionally because I didn't think they're as good as they were given credit for (Splinter Cell, Rogue Squadron, Star Fox Adventure, etc).

And no, it's not gonna kill sales. It's still too hard to pirate, even if ISOs are available. How many people have DVD burners? The mod chips that are necessary aren't even here yet.

Hell, it took pirates nearly 2 years after the 'Cube's launch to dump ISOs. That's pretty impressive to me.

--Jeremy

Re:This could go several directions...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only games in that list that even compare to something like Splinter Cell are the Resident Evil games, Eternal Darkness, and Smash Bros. And they're a different genre anyways.

The rest of those games range from mediocre (Metroid Prime) to crap and/or ripoff Skies of Arcadia/Animal Crossing)

Re:This could go several directions...

[bedouin]

I think you're being overly optimistic here. Modchips may increase interest in the physical console hardware, but the increased hardware sales likely won't be backed up with increased software sales

You're forgetting one thing though, most people either don't know, or care how to mod their consoles. The individuals that do, however, are generally the ones talking to their friends and family about all the newest games, and flaunting their game collection. In other words, the warez kiddies create neighborhood buzz about games and systems, and make the normal, paying gaming audience, go buy legitimate copies. That's how Wolf-3D and Doom got so large, from people playing warezed copies off BBS's, and less computer-savy folks buying legal copies.

I think PSX's sucesss was due largely to how easy it was to mod and copy games for it. On the other hand, N64 had no pirate scene, and it failed. Now you're seeing the same thing going on with Xbox and PS2, while the GC lags behind. Most of the kids I hear bash the GC bash it because they can't warez games for it . . .

Given that, I'm a GC fan. And even admire that Nintendo's come up with a copy protection scheme no one's broke yet. Unfortunately, it may hurt the system more than help it.

Change of pace

[Mikey-San]

I usually don't bitch about what the Slashdot editors run, be it duplicate stories or typos--we're all human, we all make mistakes.

But I have to wonder what the hell was going through Hemos's mind when he decided to post this story. It seems like he posted a story about illegal copies of an unreleased game.

What was the point? Are you trying to get Slashdot shut down? Piss off the readers? Game developers? It's stuff like this that makes all computer geeks look like skeezy software pirates, and it's on the front page, no less. This stuff makes everyone here look like hypocrites and asshats when we preach about fair use and how the content publishers and distributors should treat us as their customers.

So this story didn't link to an illegal ISO. It didn't give a BitTorrent link. But with no real reason why it should have been posted--this stuff happens /all the time/ in the console world these days--coupled with the write-up that got posted, it seems like a 1337 plug for the ISOs.

If we /act/ like pirates, the big content companies will /treat/ us like pirates.

Or did I miss something at 9:00 in the morning?

Re:Change of pace

[Fammy2000]

Stuff like this happens all the time in the console world, but I do believe this is a first for the GameCube. The "unhackable" is hacked. So the news does have some merit to the /. crowd.

Re:Change of pace

[Frozen-Solid]

OMG I R SO 1337 CUZ I CAN DOWNLAODS A GAMECUB ISOZ! But seriously, you're right Mikey. If /. is the premier "geek news" site, people see this as what geeks are interested in and like. Geeks are not pirates, the only pirates are 12 year old pansies who are too stupid to get a real job to pay for their pastime. I've seen this on several GameCube sites, and NONE of the ones who reported it are even close to considered decent sites.

Re:Change of pace

[brucmack]

On the other hand, people who's jobs may involve fighting piracy would find this bit of news quite useful. Understand that this isn't posted with the intention of allowing people to pirate stuff, it's posted so that the information is out there and we can discuss it.

Re:Change of pace

[b1t r0t]

It seems like he posted a story about illegal copies of an unreleased game.

What's wrong with that? Slashdot posts stories about unreleased games all the time!

coupled with the write-up that got posted, it seems like a 1337 plug for the ISOs.

Well, they were the first to announce that they've ripped the games. The real /. story here that you're not seeing is "How long until we can get Linux running on it?"

Re:Change of pace

[Anonymous Coward]

"If we /act/ like pirates, the big content companies will /treat/ us like pirates."

They already treat us like pirates. So get copying!

Re:Change of pace

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm kinda glad this was posted.
I've already lost $300 in damaged games.
I have a lot of nephews that beat the hell out of those cds. They are very fragile and scratch just as easy as any other cd.
Once they are over 30 days the store won't let me exchange them.
I am anxiously waiting for a way to backup these games, and make copies of the ones I've lost.

Backups are a good thing.
Piracy is a bad thing.
I am good so I will make backups.
Since I am not bad I won't pirate.

Plain and simple.

Re:Change of pace

[Anonymous Coward]

You act like an idiot, so we will all treat you as an idiot, ok?

This is NEWS, ok? Slashdot reports the news as it happens. The ISO was released. That is a fact. It is also the first known time it has happened for gamecube. This is NEWS to most people.

Do you also bitch at CNN because they report on violence and human rights infractions? Would you like to be shielded from every little bit of harm out there? I wouldn't, and neither would a lot of people. So either stop reading slashdot or just

SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Must be a slow typist...

[peterprior]

"As of yet (6/14/2003) there is no way to.."

I wonder why that post was written 2 days ago... hmmm

Re:Must be a slow typist...

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse than that, it's written in the 14th month of 2003 which is months and months in the future, if it exists at all! You USians are so confused.

Re:Must be a slow typist...

[evilviper]

Obviously, /. is experiencing a rip in space/time. Remember the Netscape privacy story?

The settlement comes after a two-year probe, begun in 2002

Is this real?

[The Real Chrisjc]

It could be just a rumour, like so many have followed before. Its very easy to make a fake iso. If someone could get a copy of the iso, then maybe read the filesystem, it could be interesting. I think for running code on the gamecube, the memory slot is the best bet. I read somewhere that you can run code directly that way.

Re:Is this real?

[seagar]

Yeah, it's real. I saw a copy of the ISO, and all of the files contained therein. This should be great news for Nintendo..I mean, why was PSOne so popular? I'll tell you why, because I could get all of the games for free.

Re:Is this real?

[teklob]

I don't like to nitpick, but 'followed before'?

Way to make the case for Open Source, guys...

[SwellJoe]

I just sent a letter to the NY Times yesterday because they framed the argument about SCO in the same terms as SCO, saying that OSS developers "shun intellectual property". I asserted that we rely on intellectual property to defend our GPL rights just as much as the proprietary software market relies on proprietary software to defend their rights, and that OSS developers in general had no interest in shunning intellectual property.

Guess I was wrong about some OSS folks, huh? Mod chips and making your own games...that's cool and nerdy. Warez...that's doofus leet bullshit. I'm not interested in leet bullshit. Too bad I can't mod the original story.

Re:Way to make the case for Open Source, guys...

[chthonicdaemon]

I hate to be anal about this, but (and here it comes) not all of us believe in "Intellectual Property". Of course, you might not have the same issues as the Free Software guys, but they actually started the whole scene -- not the OSS guys, so I hope that letter was very clear.

Re:Way to make the case for Open Source, guys...

[Abcd1234]

Umm... explain to me again how these crackers represent the OSS population?

I have a feeling the article was posted on Slashdot because it demonstrates how even the strictest copy-control mechanisms can be defeated (in this case, very specialized media on a fairly closed piece of hardware), something which has been said (and demonstrated) time and again. This is obviously interesting to Slashdot, since this is just an example of the wider problem of copy controls and their effect on the public domain (see the myriad articles regarding CD protections, DeCSS, etc, etc). However, I personally don't get the impression that Hemos is somehow value-judging these people (either supporting or criticising them). It's simply a technically and philosophically interesting news piece.

So, please, quit overreacting. If people make the mistake of associating these law-breaking crackers (whose actions I neither respect nor condone) with members of the OSS population, that's a problem we'll have to deal with. But if that happens, it speaks more to the general misconceptions in society about the difference between crackers and hackers (a subject which has been beaten (and beaten (and beaten)) like the dead horse it is).

Re:Way to make the case for Open Source, guys...

[Anonymous Coward]

...And yet ANOTHER knob who makes complete assumptions about the slashdot readership being one entity with a single collective thought..

Do you realize that there is more than one reader here? More than one person posting? That some people may be OSS fans, others are staunch capitalists, some intelligent, and some are judgemental assholes?

Too bad I couldn't moderate your mother's ability to give birth..

Re:Way to make the case for Open Source, guys...

[evilviper]

Mod chips and making your own games...that's cool and nerdy. Warez...that's doofus leet bullshit. I'm not interested in leet bullshit. Too bad I can't mod the original story.

Politics and legality be dammed... Technical acheivements are very cool and very geeky. Like it or not, this is NOT a linux geek site... It's an all-around geek site, and many of us are seriously into electronics. Accomplishing something that you are not supposed to be able to do (or something nobody thought of) is very geeky. Politics and legality be dammed.

Should /. have posted info about DeCSS because it could allow illegial copying? Just say no to that question and you'll be moderated to the depths of hell. Obviously, technical acheivements belong here, no matter what the technical motivation.

Hey, this is one step forward in getting GameCube emulation on my computer.

Who cares about those ISO ...

[Thanatiel]

What I see if that if they can let "simple user" put bits in a GC's memory, that would mean Linux on GC.

A simple kernel bootstrap with a networked access to a file system would be enough.

Re:Who cares about those ISO ...

[Thanatiel]

First post since weeks and I made a typo ...

"What I see is that ..."

os X freezing up

[eskimo232]

Well i don't want to play devils advocate and start this up again, but I admit that os X has frozen on me once....it's when I put in a gamecube disc, the cd-rom drive just kept spinning for like 10 minutes and i couldn't do anything, like forcequit or relaunch the finder, so...I had to reboot....ruining my months and months of hard work building up my uptime stat......it ended at 3 months and 8 days......:-( stupid friend who suggested i put it in........ (on a side note, windoze freezes to, so don't get all hyped up you microsoft brown-nosers. Even billy gates can't crack the gamecubes superdisc......I'm curious as to how this release group ripped the data, they must have some some connection between the gamecube and their pc, because i don't know of any normal dvd-roms that can read these things, does anyone else?

Re:os X freezing up

[Squidgee]

it's when I put in a gamecube disc, the cd-rom drive

Well, first you need a DVD drive.

Second, it doesn't freeze the finder on me..*shrug* Just doesn't read the disk.

so /. is now Piracy Connect!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good grief! News isn't that hard to come by that /. is now distributing piracy news?

What are you thinking of?

Here's a marker-pen. Paint a target on your forehead.

You'll feel better when /.'s gone...

Thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell is slashdot posting articles about blatant theft? You people are such fucking losers.

Re:Thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright infringement. Repeat after me, C-o-p-y-r-i-g-h-t i-n-f-r-i-n-g-e-m-e-n-t.

Re:Thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Call it whatever you want if it makes you feel better. It doesn't change the fact that fuckers that do this are assholes. All the bastards stealing music are responsible for encryption, no-digital-out, and other shit applied to new music formats. Cheap ass bastards!!!!

Re:Thieves

[arose]

1. It's not theft.
2. Read a newspaper, there will be news about real theft.
3. Complain to them.
(sorry, no profit here)

Re:Thieves

[ketamine-bp]

Not really, rather, these are attempts to deprive you of fair use by the evil empire of RIAA. Copyright infringement has nothing to do with restirction of fair use.
</div>

Re:Thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to see a fucking loser, just go look your mirror. Maybe one day you will learn to think a little about a topic before making moronic comments about it, and maybe one day you will wander into traffic, drooling and ranting, only to be flattened by a truck..

Re:Thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

You've been brainwashed. That's ok, it happens with weak-willed minds. Here's a challenge: try to think for yourself!

In Related News:

[SEWilco]

• There may be weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
• There may be more mass graves in Iraq.
• There may be peace talks and bombings in Israel.
• There may be a different number of hurricanes this year than last year.
• There may be more or less melting of polar ice this year than last year.
• There may be a significant impact on Earth by a celestial body sometime soon.
• A fortune teller may make a prediction.

Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frozen-Solid]

I find it funny how this article is on so many different sites, yet there is no proof of anything.

So what? Therea are a few cd dumps of the Wind Waker. The only way possible to get them on an actual system would be to totally replace the drive with one that doesnt just read Nintendo's pseudo-DVDs. It's just like those DVD players that ONLY read dvds, they dont have the physical capability of even reading anything but the GameCube Disc, no audio-cd, video dvd, nothing.

Someone said that GameCube piracy would be much like the Dreamcast, but they forgot that the Dreamcast has the built-in ability to read any kind of disc, the GameCube's laser can ONLY read Nintendo's custom DVD-like discs. So, without a GameCube SDK it's not possible.

Other people are comparing it to the Xbox, with ISOs being released and modchips later. There's an issue with this as well. Every other system has legit, somewhat legal reasons for using modchips: importing games from other regions. It just so happened that those modchips had an alternative "feature" of letting the system read burned discs as if they were real games. The Nintendo has the ability to play other regions built-in, just a little jumper change on the inside and you have a Japanese Cube, change it back and you have a US cube. There is no legal reason for a company to make modchips and therefore anyone mass producing them can be shutdown by Nintendo in a second.

Let's say for a second that these ISOs do exist, and that some moron figures out how to play them on the Cube. It will be more expensive to mod the system, burn the game (10 bucks for a normal sized blank DVD, not sure how much mini-dvds are or if they even exist yet), etc than it would be just to buy the damn thing.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[jbarket]

Just to let you know, you can buy normal blank DVDs for around 1$/ea if you buy in bulk. And even if you buy just a couple, it's definately not 10$/ea. I've seen those mini-DVDs around for under 10$/ea. The purpose of the modchip or running unauthorized code would be game development. This is /. after all, open source is a pretty big thing here.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frozen-Solid]

I'm talking about walking into Best Buy and picking up a blank DVD. Sure you can get them cheap if you know where to look, but I'm talking mass-market here. As for your little "open-source" comment, this article is all about ISOs, not about the ability to run linux on my beloved Cube. The modchip comment was the smallest arguement I made, and you forget that NO ONE will see a modchip as an open source medium, especially not those that matter (aka NINTENDO).

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frac]

Best Buy - Fuji 10-Pack 2.4x DVD-R Discs with Jewel Cases - $24.99

I hate it when people won't admit they're wrong... The price of DVD-R media has gone down from $10/DVD-R for a LONG TIME now.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[ajs318]

Why does nobody "pirate" books, magazines and newspapers? Answer: because there is no saving to be made. It's cheaper to pay for the damn things, or just read them in the store {when you're skint, a fast reader and live in a city with plenty of book stores, it's very possible to do this}.

So it is with Nintendo's weirdy discs. Hard to get hold of, non-standard format, misleading rumours as to how this was achieved {I have heard someone swear blind that NSM used reverse-spinning CDs in pub CD players ..... an obvious lie if you've ever watched one doing its thing, but people will fall for anything as this link shows}.

By the time anyone gets through the protection, Nintendo will already have made enough money off the GameCube not to be bothered about people making copies of games.

This is so much a non-story that I can't be bothered to go *ting!* Next please.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[heli0]

There is no legal reason for a company to make modchips and therefore anyone mass producing them can be shutdown by Nintendo in a second

They can only shut them down if they are distributing them with Nintendo bios software already loaded on them. Otherwise they are simply selling a piece of hardware. There are plenty of places that legally sell xbox and ps2 mod chips such as easybuy2000.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[spacefrog]

• Let's say for a second that these ISOs do exist, and that some moron figures out how to play them on the Cube. It will be more expensive to mod the system, burn the game (
• 10 bucks for a normal sized blank DVD, not sure how much mini-dvds are or if they even exist yet), etc than it would be just to buy the damn thing.

If you are paying ten bucks a pop for blank DVD-R or +R media, you truly are a moron. They can be had for about $2 each in a five or ten pack.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Kashif Shaikh]

Right now, I can pirate PS2 games. But it's not worth my time or money to do so. Here is Canada, the startup cost just to start burning DVDs:

$500 CDN for DVD Writer
$200 for a PS2 modchip to play burned DVDs(this is from a "friend" who would get a modchip).
$10-15 for DVD media
$6 for each game I want to rent then burn it.

So the total I'm looking at is approx $700 just to start up and another $10-$50 bucks for "testing it works"(aka DVD coasters).

That's $750 canadian bucks = 11 games @ $70 each.

When I look at that figure, I make three conclusions:

1) I have 6 games that I really like, and only buy games that are good every three months or so. So I'm not the type to get every hyped game.

2) Learning from the PS1 endeavor, it is quite true that one copies 200 games, but only plays about 5 of them. For PS1, I burnt many,many games but I only played and finished MGS1. In other words, I don't have a lot of time.

3) For that $750 bucks, I can get 11 games, and even if I manage to finish them, PS3 will be out by then...perhaps using a different media format like the GC.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Zigg]

Unless they're determined to be in violation of the DMCA, trafficking in "circumvention devices".

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frozen-Solid]

So I haven't looked into the price of dvd media for a few months, sue me. I have no reason to own a DVD burner, and therefore no reason to look into direct pricing. It was a freaking example, sue me. And as I said earlier, I'm not talkign buying in bulk, I'm talking about if you were to buy a single DVD or DVD-RW.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Anonymous Coward]

more than a few months. they havent cost $10 disc for at least 2 years you moron. your whole post was full of things you don't know what you're talking about. the gamecube doesn't have a special laser, have you ever heard of a Q, it reads gc and dvds. shut up, you don't know a fucking thing about this.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it funny that you get modded up insightful when it's painfully clear you don't know what you're talking about.

There's no jumper inside to facilitate easy region switching - they're empty contacts. You need to get a mod to switch (granted the mod isn't a chip, just a switch connected to those contacts, but still it's not as easy as changing a jumper).

Your other two major points have been proven wrong by others already - so when are you going to get modded down as 'overrated'? This is the trouble with letting morons moderate. The moderations don't reflect reality.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[rhuntley12]

$10 for a blank DVD? If your paying that much I'll sell you Verbatim DVD-r's for half that!

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frozen-Solid]

The Q is a totally different thing from the GameCube, it's manufactured by Panasonic's japanese parent company, not by Nintendo. I'm talking about the NORAML EVERY DAY GAMECUBE. It does not have the physical capabilities to read anything but GameCube discs.

Sure the Q has the ability to read GC discs, DVDs, and CDs, but it is hardly something I consider as an option because it costs three times as much as a normal GameCube and is only available in Japan unless you want to spend even more to import it. However, the Q still can't read burned discs. It's just like the DVD players from about two to three years ago that can't read burned audio CDs.

Re:Yeah...right...whatever.

[Frozen-Solid]

The JPN cube has a jumper connecting those two contacts, you take the jumper off and you have a US cube. None-the-less it has an easy way of switching between regions that doesnt allow for making a mod-chip with the "side effect" of allowing it to read burned discs.

Sales show GC games sell more than on any system.

[Viewsonic]

For games that are released on all three systems, sales figures have been showing that most of the sales are on the GameCube platform. It's hard to believe the PS2 with nearly 3 times the user base is selling LESS than the Cube, but it's true. Of course, this is false for sports games, as Cube owners tend to dislike sports for some reason. Take a look at some of the last years sales figures from Sega, Capcom, etc ..

Its a Microsoft job

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know Microsloth uses piracy to their advantage. GameCube is the Xbox killer. MS does thing to kill GameCube. As MS used piracy to push winblows into all homes of the 2nd and 3rd world.

Re:Its a Microsoft job

[akpcep]

In what respect does GameCube 'kill' XBOX?

Re:Its a Microsoft job

[Anonymous Coward]

This is better than this

Re:Its a Microsoft job

[akpcep]

I've just been pwned.

Re:Its a Microsoft job

[Anonymous Coward]

Only Xbox games that I like: Morrowind and Halo. Battlemech game is ok. Are there any other good ones out there?

(bought an xbox right after they came out, and have 10 or 12 games)

Just got a gamecube - Zelda is one of the coolest video games I have ever seen!

Prices...

[Flabby Boohoo]

I just saw at Sam's Club the GC with Starfox and a memory stick for $148, Target's GC deal is $150 with a mail-in coupon for 1 free game (Zelda was one of the games).

The gamecube is the cheapest system, games are reasonably priced, so what drives this? Is it the thrill of the hack?

Re:Prices...

[AtaruMoroboshi]

no, actually you get the free game in the store at time of purchase. no coupons.

I bought a Gamecube at Circuit City for $130 new (one week sale price) and got Metroid Prime free, at the time of purchase. This is the promotion as Nintendo intends.

Re:Prices...

[Eccles]

I just saw at Sam's Club the GC with Starfox and a memory stick for $148

I have a pre-owned GC with Super Mario Sunshine on order from gamestop.com: $90.

Re:Prices...

[Flabby Boohoo]

ok, stand corrected. The end result is the same, and that does not really answer the question...

Although, people steal music which is even cheaper... I guess I aswered my own question.

Re:Prices...

[Anonymous Coward]

possible reasons:

1. making action replay codes for PSO
2. making player-kill action replay codes for PSO
3. making anti-player-kill action replay codes for PSO

What they probably did

[msgmonkey]

Was analyse the signals going to/from the GameCube and the read head/head motor control.

Once you have figured out how the raw bits are stored you can actually build your own controller to read off the information ready for transfer to CD/Hard disk/etc.

I suspect the problem they will have is getting a gamecube to read the data off some other medium. The GC is very integerated and you can't intercept the commands to the drive controller (eg read sector number xxxxx) because those signals are inside a chip and not tracks on the board.

You would have to build something that connected directly to the read head/head motor control pcb tracks and attempt to calculate where on the disc it wanted the bits to stream in from. It's not impossible but it is far from trival.

Re: discussion... free speach...

[op51n]

There is the question of whether it is worth discussing the issues you put forth, if they are the opinions you hold. What's wrong with that? /. isn't condoning it or condemning it in the article, just making people aware of this.

Not only is it an interesting topic of discussion, but for geeks, it is interesting to discuss and explore the possibilities of emulation - being able to create something that can not only play the games of a console, with completely different hardware, at a playable rate.

But as people have pointed out, it's not even really an issue at the moment given the computing power it would take to do so with this gen of consoles. So we have the questions of modifiying the consoles themselves, also interesting.

It's not wrong to make people aware of the changes in technology and what people are capable of doing. If you are worried about the illegality of the act itself, don't partake of it, but you can't preach that we don't mention it somewhere where the majority of readers would find it at least interesting to hear.

Google Search

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the site I found:

http://www.gc.gba-nfo.com/

Has more details.

Not copied, liberated!

[TrollBridge]

Because information wants to be free!

Re:Not copied, liberated!

[arose]

Of course memes want to propogate and not be contained in GameCube disks.

Re:warez rulez

[Frozen-Solid]

And it's morons like you that make me feel sorry for the future of gaming.

Misconceptions

[jerkface]

There are, and always have been, a massive amount of misconceptions on this topic, so I'll try to cover most of them in one post.

1. Gamecube discs spin clockwise, just like almost every other drive. Try opening the lid while a game is being read so you can see for yourself.
2. The small (8cm) physical size of the Gamecube discs has nothing to do with copy protection; Nintendo just liked small discs. 8cm discs are not new, and writable discs of this size are not hard to acquire. 8cm DVD-RAM discs are popular for digital recording applications, although that may be 100% irrelevant if the GCN's laser doesn't read that type of medium in the first place...
3. The copying of Gamecube disc images is NOT done by just popping the disc in a computer's drive and reading it. If this is even feasible or practical, it is NOT how dumping is being done right now. Dumping is being done by tricking the only networked Gamecube game (PSO) into reading the disc's contents and sending it out over the network.
4. This still leaves MANY mysteries as to the precise format of the disc:
   1. So far as I know, it's still not confirmed whether the tracks spiral differently on Gamecube discs
   2. It's not known how well the dumps reflect what's really on the disc at the low level - when the system reads the disc, it might be decrypting, as well, or ignoring other information that the BIOS will strictly require to ensure the disc is legit. IOW, perhaps the dumps are hopelessly different from the format a GCN disc needs to be in
5. One of the important (and well-known) copyright mechanisms is a barcode-like section of the far innermost track of GCN discs (look closely at a game and you can see it - no, not that one, further to the inside). It is probably just not possible to replicate this on any writable DVD format.

And just to reinforce the point, since many people won't understand it - this DUMPING does NOT allow anyone to play pirated games. It is not even clear what steps are necessary to get to that point. It's rather impressive, really - the PSX, Dreamcast, PS2, and Xbox were all cracked by the time they'd been out this long, yet the Gamecube remains a mystery. A good thing, IMO.

Re:Misconceptions

[b1t r0t]

5. One of the important (and well-known) copyright mechanisms is a barcode-like section of the far innermost track of GCN discs (look closely at a game and you can see it - no, not that one, further to the inside). It is probably just not possible to replicate this on any writable DVD format.

The patent for this was linked to in some article back in late March or so. I seem to recall that the barcode is an encrypted value related to the relative angular position of the start of the barcode and the start of the game data track. Sounds like some kind of Apple ][ copy protection, except using stuff that you can't record.

And of course the only way to get any of this (and Linux) to boot is probably going to be a hacked boot ROM with support for standard DVD-R discs. Time to bone up on your mad surface-mount s01d3r1ng sk177z!

Re:Misconceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. Parent is the only post this story needs.

Re:Misconceptions

[Frozen-Solid]

Actually, if someone really wanted to be able to get Linux on a Cube they could do so easily, but they'd just have to go the route of any normal developer and get professional pressing done.

The software wouldnt have to be licensed by Nintendo, ala the Action Replay or Freeloader, and would take some money to do, but I'd be willing to pay $50 for a knoppix-like disc for my GameCube using the memory card as a storage device (and soon the SD memory card adaptor).

Personally I think an officially licensed linux distro for a console would be a huge selling point. If Nintendo or Sony (we all know Microsoft would never go for it) could set something up, it'd be HUGE.

Re:Misconceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

Just as a curiosity, I wonder if a yamaha burner with DiscT@2 could be persuaded into writing the barcode.

Re:Misconceptions

[Dean Sas]

you mean something like this? i imagine they've sold loads ;)

Re:Misconceptions

[Frozen-Solid]

I totally forgot about Sony's Linux kit, now i have one more reason for wanting a PS2 :D However I'd still love to see Linux on my cube ;)

Mountain climbing...

[twoslice]

Why does a mountain climber climb a mountain? - because it is there and to see if they have the balls to do it.

Why does a geek hack and freak? - to see if it is possible and to see if they have the brains to do it.

Very little difference between the two - I find people all of the time who confuse balls with brains. Generally though, sometimes it takes balls and sometimes it takes brains - rarely both at the same time.

I don't condone piracy but this is the way most geeks learn about stuff they don't teach in school - by seeing if it can be done.

Re:Mountain climbing...

[Psiren]

I don't condone piracy but this is the way most geeks learn about stuff they don't teach in school - by seeing if it can be done.

Seeing whether it can be done, and providing the tools for others to easily and cheaply pirate software are two totally different things. Hacking on such things is good if all you're doing is trying to learn, imho. If you're setting out to make, or deprive others of money, then I can't see how anyone can claim it's right.

Re:Mountain climbing...

[cicatrix1]

If you're setting out to make, or deprive others of money, then I can't see how anyone can claim it's right.


If depriving others of money is wrong, then man, I don't want to be right.

Slashdot...

[Anonymous Coward]

News For Nerds. 0-day wareZ.

Urban legend

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if they do or don't, but odds are they don't. It would mean they'd have to re-engineer basic technology.

If that were the case, why go with 3.5" disks? They would use standard disks.

I'd remind you, this rumor was also around when the X-Box was released and is conclusively false.

Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[winston_pr]

Let's face it. The GameCube is losing behind PS2 and XBOX. Both PS2 and XBOX are "piratable" or "backupable" whatever you like to call it. I doubt the XBOX would have taken off so fast if it would not have been for all the moddings made available for it. I doubt the PS(1) would have overtaken the others so quickly if it wouldn't have been for chipping. Allowing a core of hard-core (otaku) to release and trade GC games would definately lead to more Base-systems being sold. More base systems lead to a better market share, which in turn makes more developers interested. Then after 1 year of this *BAM!* a new copy protection. Nintendo sits with double the installed base of base-units they did before the copying, and a whole community running around the console. Perhaps not such a bad outlook after all.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Frozen-Solid]

If systems really sell because of modding, than the Dreamcast Wouldn't be dead today now would it? I really hate when someone tries and makes this arguement because it makes piracy look like a good thing. All piracy does is take money from the developers who are struggling to make a buck to begin with.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[winston_pr]

I'm not saying it's good nor bad, rather a piece of reality.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Anonymous Coward]

And the implication that piracy is Hardcore as well, way off. Hardcode gamers have seen too many of thier favourite platforms die to piracy to think that it is a good idea.

We want cool games without region locking and censorship. Free speech is better than free beer after all..

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Sheetrock]

The problem with the Dreamcast was that it was an inferior offering, particularly outside of Japan. There were something like two decent RPGs made for the system, a couple of platformers, but no blockbuster title that gamers would rally around -- it was the final in a line of consoles that weren't properly backed with a decent stable of games, and while the hardware was technically decent people held off because of Sega's lack of commitment to their hardware for a reasonable length of time.

Piracy's not a good thing, but I doubt piracy was among the leading factors in the demise of the Dreamcast. I think the investment in developing a title was more substantial than its chief competition (PS) and developers weren't convinced it was worth the effort.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[EnglishTim]

It certainly doesn't sound like reality to me. The idea that you can double your market penetration by allowing the 'hardcore' to pirate games seems ludicrous. And even if you could increase your user base by that much, do you really think that developers are going to want to make games for a system where a full 50% of the console owners are pirating rather than buying games?

No, it's a complete fantasy scenario for those trying to justify their habit of not paying for anything.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[winston_pr]

Personally I am against piracy for moral reasons. However, you can not deny that "unlocked" platforms are more attractive to the average scrupleless consumer than locked ones. Denying that would be naive. (Include the Asian market minus Japan in that calculation) That is the only point I tried to make, that it might not ONLY be a negative effect of unlocking the system. As for increasing your marketshare by 100%, it is ofcourse extremely arbitrary, but it seems you are missing my point. I am not talking real figures here ofcourse, because there are no empirics to employ here. I am just trying to describe a possible effect of shifts in the market structure. Cheers

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[winston_pr]

Many hard-core gamers do STEAL software. I am not saying all, nor implying the majority does (hell, I don't know any figures here). But rather than average Joe, it is logical to think that it would rather be a hard-core gamer who would go through the trouble and hassle to copy console games.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Frozen-Solid]

I wasnt saying that piracy killed the Dreamcast, I was saying taht in reply to the first post, if piracy HELPED a system, then the Dreamcast WOULDN'T be dead because it was easily the most pirated system ever.

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Anonymous Coward]

"No, it's a complete fantasy scenario for those trying to justify their habit of not paying for anything."

Jeez, and you're accusing OTHERS of being in a fantasy world?

Re:Perhaps not undesirable developments after all

[Forkenhoppen]

Normally, yes. However, the Dreamcast still had a lot of points working against it, besides its inferior software library:
- it came with the worst controller ever
- it had the loudest optical media drive ever in a console
- it didn't loudly announce "SEEGAAAA" when you turned it on

These are the real reasons the Dreamcast failed.

Re:whOA!

[Fenis-Wolf]

If you would have read the posted article and did some research instead of immediately proclaiming it as false, you would have realized that it says the burned ISO's will only possibly play on the Panasonic Game Cube clone, which if i remember correctly has a full sized dvd drive. And will also play other types of disc based products. So in reality, it wouldn't be that hard. You'd just have to have a mod chip, or someother way of forcing the machine to read your code from your full sized dvd. You could actually fit 2 almost on a full sized dvd....mmmm back up goodness

it IS real, it MAY work

[Anonymous Coward]

the may was just added because it was used two times in the article.. ;) it will work :P

but yes, this is real.. the isos are on top sites, even one or two public ftps on irc have it on slow connections.

_NEW_ Groups:
NiNTENDO, STARCUBE and possible OiRaM

I'll tell you why

[Anonymous Coward]

"Cube owners tend to dislike sports for some reason"

Playing sports on a console is really for losers. I think Cube owners would rather be out there actually playing.

mini-DVD vs. Mini-disc

[rollthelosindice]

I didn't know that these existed. Good post.

The article refers to them as mini-discs, which they are not. Good to see someone else knew they were mini-DVD. And that mini-DVD-Rs exist.

For the last time!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"and spin the disc the otherway"

Gamecube doesn't spin the other way. Its recorded outside-in instead of the normal inside-out.

Re:whOA!

[SuperDuG]

burned ISO's will only possibly play on the Panasonic Game Cube clone

Yes, not one bit of evidence. I can speculate all day that MS is buying SlashDot and have just as much evidence as the article does.

This is a bullshit story and everyone but you knows it.

Re:emulator? PS2 Emu

[FauxReal]

Isn't it funny that there is still no emulator for the gamecube? I mean, it must be the only console without an emulator (and ps2?)... Well there's this work in progress for linux and windows PC. http://www.pcsx2.net/

Yes, I am a Pedant.

[EnglishTim]

Firstly: ISO stands for the 'International Organsiation of Standardization'. Some people seem to have co-opted the term to mean an image of an ISO 9660 CD. However, the gamecube has its own propietary format which is on no way an international standard, therefore the term 'ISO' cannot possibly apply.

Secondly: An apostrophe is not required when referring to the plural of an object.

Have a nice day.

Tim

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[Anonymous Coward]

you are a nigger, aren't you?

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare you!!!!! I have never nigged in my lifetime!!!!!

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[praxim]

Actually, ISO doesn't stand for anything. It's from the Greek for "equal," chosen over a real acronym because the acronym would be different in different languages.

I think you've been out-pedanted. ;-)

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[stanmann]

Actually, ISO has been co-opted to refer to ANY disk image. But don't let me interfere with your pedantry.

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[PainKilleR-CE]

Firstly: ISO stands for the 'International Organsiation of Standardization'.

As already stated by another poster, that's not quite right. Even your own statement shows it, in that International Organisation of Standardization would be IOS (you have to dig a little deeper on iso.org to find the isos->equals explanation). Puzzled looks abound at ISO meetings here when someone asks what ISO stands for, and those meetings are regarding ISO 9000:2001 (to be more descriptive but still not completely accurate), though it's still called ISO.

Some people seem to have co-opted the term to mean an image of an ISO 9660 CD.

And as time goes on, more and more programs use .iso as the extension for these image files, which means that it's only going to continue.

However, the gamecube has its own propietary format which is on no way an international standard, therefore the term 'ISO' cannot possibly apply.

However, the format is based on the ISO format for DVDs, although modified as some people have already mentioned. Many standards allow for modification, and since the modification was actually done by the company that originally put the DVD format into ECMA for standardization (and then fast-tracked to ISO), it's likely that this is the case as well (though unlikely that the modifications were submitted to the standard).

Finally, the ISO standard for DVDs is not the same number as the ISO standard for CDs. DVDs would be covered under 16448:2002 (120mm DVDs) and 16449 (80mm DVDs), with writable/rewritable discs coming under 16824:1999, 16825:1999, and 20563:2001 (note: the number after the : is the year of the most recent revision, meaning the first two rewritable standards listed are mostly dead, but don't really predate the DVD-ROM standards previously mentioned, as those are in 3rd revision iirc).

Oh, and you have a bit of a typo in Organisation up there.

Enough of the pedant crap for now.

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is entirely acceptable to type ISO's instead of ISOs. The old rules do not apply as popular culture has redefined them. It doesn't matter what your textbooks from 1972 say, if everyone adopts a new standard then that _becomes_ the standard. Just like putting puctuation outside of "quotes" when used in the context of something like: That dude is a "bonehead". This was bad back in 1956, but is now acceptable.

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Yes, but an ISO9660 of a GC disc is still ISO complant.

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[EnglishTim]

Even your own statement shows it, in that International Organisation of Standardization would be IOS

True, I should have looked in to it a little further - I had assumed that the order of the letters was due to the order the words are written in French. Evidently I was wrong.

Oh, and you have a bit of a typo in Organisation up there.

Actually, I took the spelling directly from the ISO website. Normally I would spell it with an s.

Re:Yes, I am a Pedant.

[PainKilleR-CE]

Actually, I took the spelling directly from the ISO website. Normally I would spell it with an s.

That's not the part I was referring to ;) That's a simple difference between US and UK English. It was the fact that your post contained:
Organziation
The i and the z were swapped in order, hence I called it a typo rather than a spelling issue ;)

I, for one, always figured that they could've at least made the English name International Standardization Organisation, which would take care of the problem of ordering the words, at least in one language.

Gamecube boot disks (for imports)

[Anonymous Coward]

Though I haven't heard anyone successfully copy GC discs, I have heard boot disks that'll allow you to play import games.

This isn't exactly |337 war3z news, but it's still illegal, or a really small grey area.

Import games are typically genre specific, and tailored to the japanese culture; shooters, love novels, puzzels, etc. But more importantly, games are released in japan months before they're released in the United States, and nearly a year before it's released to the EU.

Re: discussion... free speach...

[ProfKyne]

/. isn't condoning it or condemning it in the article, just making people aware of this.

In general I agree with your post wrt free speech, but the above is just not reality -- by posting it (esp. on the front page, which is how I got here), Slashdot is implicitly condoning this.

Great, but...

[ClubStew]

How can I burn these so my XBox can play them? :-( I know, I know, no replies needed. I just want to be able to finish my Metroid Prime game I started on my brother-in-laws GC on my XBox (and can't really warrant buying a GC to finish one game - I hardly play my XBox).

Re:Great, but...

[Have Blue]

Sell the Xbox, put the proceeds towards the GC. If you hardly play either of them you won't care which one you actually own.

The way things are going

[His Nastiness]

I almost expect that within a couple years Nintendo will be out of the hardware business (regardless of their claims I think they would be a third party software developer if they couldn't make consoles) and then you should be able to pick all these game sup at Dreamcast prices.

Please don't post crap like this

[_egg]

This flies directly counter to the usual arguments about fair use being derailed in the over-reactive world of anti-piracy technology... If this site cares so much for Your Rights Online, makes sure stories discuss rights we *do* have, not those we don't... such as theft of games.

Re:Please don't post crap like this

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh goody! I got to meta-mod the shithead who modded this as insightful!

I love how you equate the simple fact that an image of a disc exists with "theft" of games, and that we shouldn't talk about "rights we don't have"..

Thanks for telling us how we should think and what we should do. I don't know how I could go on living without a master who commands me.

This Gives Open Source a Bad Name

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a Game Cube.

If you look at the latest Zelda game, and the effort it took to create it, $40-$50 is not an unreasonable amount of money to pay for it.

This is particularly true for when you consider the fact that on a $/hr basis for entertainment, given my kids play this game alot, I am probably spending about .001/hr at this point.

If you rip this game you are an asshole and you are giving the Open Source culture a bad rep.

Good and bad

[Apreche]

Piracy on Nintendo systems has always been a fickle topic. Back in the day Nintendo dropped the CD and stuck with the cartridge right up through the N64. Their choice to stick with proprietary optical media on the cube is obviously because they want to have the ultimate defense against piracy.

This seems pretty good for Nintendo. Nintendo makes more profit per unit on games and systems than either MS or Sony. This is how they stay in business despite not being number one. However, I think one of the reasons they aren't number one is because you can't pirate their games.

I know lots of people with Playstation 1's and 2's. It's hard not to. Almost all of these people have modded a system for various reasons, import games, piracy, etc. However, they all have one thing in common. They bought the hardware legitimately, and they all have at least a few legitimate games. Everyone who owns a gamecube has had to buy all of their games and hardware legitimately. People who can't afford to do so, don't buy a cube.

I'm not advocating piracy. I think that if you want to have the privalege of playing all the great cube games you should have to pay for it, like I do. However, I think piracy does increase market share a great deal. By having pirateable games your system becomes prevalent in low income countries and households. Outside of US, Europe, Japan and Australia getting video games is difficult. Often the only option is to get a PS1, which is easily acquireable and pirate games which are un-affordable.

By switching to a pirateable media format like CD or DVD Nintendo will lose some money to decreased software sales to suburban kids and college students. But they will make that money back by selling hardware to low income households who will pirate all their software.

In summary. No piracy causes lower market share, but higher software sales figures. 2 million copies of Zelda as opposed to 1.5 million otherwise. Pirating allows higher market share through more hardware sales, but causes fewer software sales.

The other reason is that Nintendo makes a lot of first party titles. Piracy would cause direct loss of dough to Nintendo. The other systems thrive mostly on third party software. So piracy doesn't hurt Sony or Microsoft as much as it hurts Capcom or EA.

Re:Good and bad

[Zed2K]

"People who can't afford to do so, don't buy a cube."

If someone can't afford to drop a couple hundred on a console and games they shouldn't be wasting money on a console and games. They should, oh I don't know, buying food and clothing for their family maybe?

"This is how they stay in business despite not being number one"

Uhhh...they stay in business because they make a ton of money. Contrary to common belief Nintendo isn't going anywhere. They aren't currently number 1 because Sony had the drop on MS and Nintendo and their lead is just too large. Also Nintendo's game library is very small compared to Sony. This has nothing to do with being able to steal their games. Sony and MS would probably make more money if their games weren't so easy to sell. Everyone likes video games and people are generally willing to pay for them. The people who steal them is such a small number compared to all the little kids who get mom and dad to buy them.

Re:Good and bad

[SubliminalLove]

What you're forgetting is that these guys aren't really making any money on their hardware. Microsoft pays $400 for parts on each $200 X-box, and as I understand they still aren't in the black on the deal. Their bet is on getting a big enough chunk of market share that they can make the money back long-run on game sales. I don't imagine that the PS2 and GC are being sold at a profit either, since they're both being sold very cheaply and they're both running impressive hardware. Hail to the king, baby.

Re:Good and bad

[gurutechanimal]

Except that the business model for Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc...is the same as the disposable razor companies:

1) Sell hardware at or below cost
2) Make it all back on software sales
3) Profit!!

Re:Good and bad

[pbhj]

I can't see $400 in parts there ... perhaps you're including R&D and marketing costs as well?

The hardware manufacturers make the money selling the licenses to the software makers surely?! That is the software makes all the caboodles of $$$ and a large percentage of that goes on the licensing fees.

Re:Good and bad

[DrVxD]

Where do you buy software for a disposable razor?

Re:Good and bad

[Westley]

Although the exact figures are unknown, it's at the very least widely rumoured that the GameCube has *always* been sold at a profit - and that it can be turned out now for under $50. (I even read a figure of $27, but that sounds a little *too* low...)

I believe the PS2 is now profitable as well, after saving various costs by reducing the number of components (combining things etc).

No idea about the X-Box though - I'd guess it's never been profitable and probably won't be for its entire lifetime (just in terms of hardware, that is).

Re:Good and bad

[heXXXen]

I read an article once (perhaps on IGN, not sure?) that said Nintendo has never lost money or cut even on a hardware sale, they always sell at profit, no matter what.

That probably helps them stay in business. Well, that and the Game Boy.

Re:Good and bad

[sad_]

it has been my opinion too that for a system to be successful it needs to have a 'piracy' scene.
a lot of people might say that piracy kills platforms, but i believe piracy _makes_ a platform.
ofcourse companies will try everything to implement some kind of anti-copy/region-coded scheme into their games/discs but they must surely know at the same time it is only a mather of time before it gets cracked. this can only be battled by going proprietary format like the nintendo-gamecube has done, this will scare away a lot of the youngster who have barely enough money to buy the console and a (top) game now and then, while they copy (pirate) all the others.

ps: i'm not pro-piracy, although i'm pro-modchip.

Re:Good and bad

[PainKilleR-CE]

I know lots of people with Playstation 1's and 2's. It's hard not to. Almost all of these people have modded a system for various reasons, import games, piracy, etc.

I know a lot of people with Playstation 2s (and one person that only has a Playstation 1). I have never seen, first-hand, a modded PS1 or PS2. I know one person I work with that has a modded PS2.

If I went by the people I knew, the XBox would be the #1 console, because that is the console that most of the people I work with own (most of those people are using their XBox on an HDTV as well, I own a DC, PS2, and XBox, and will be buying a GC in the next couple of weeks, once the GB Player is bundled with it). So, XBox would be the #1 console, modded consoles would be in the 1% range, and 30-50% of homes would have at least 1 HDTV. Oh, and 99% of people that own consoles would spend 80% of the time they use the console playing Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid 2, or sports and giant robot games on XBox Live. Never mind the 100% DSL/cable connection rate, either, for those that have computers or consoles in their homes. Personal experience can't always be used to generalize, but I bet the modded consoles part is the most correct of the assumptions I can make on my experience.

However, they all have one thing in common. They bought the hardware legitimately, and they all have at least a few legitimate games. Everyone who owns a gamecube has had to buy all of their games and hardware legitimately. People who can't afford to do so, don't buy a cube.

The price I paid for my PS2 console alone would've paid for a GC and 2 games today (1 of those being free w/ the console), and in a week or two you could add the GB Player to that, and GBA games run ~$30/each instead of the $50/each for new PS2/GC/XBox games. The other consoles only came close to price in terms of hardware costs very recently, with Sony dropping the PS2 to $150 to clear the shelves for the revised PS2 consoles. Most of the stores around here are only carrying the PS2 in bundles, though, so you'd have to get pre-owned hardware to make the price comparison (and then compare with a pre-owned GC).

OTOH, I do understand the 'play-before-you-pay' justification, but believe that 90% of the people using it are just deluding themselves or outright lying. I rarely rent anything because I believe that any time I rent something that I eventually buy I wasted the money I spent renting it (and I don't buy used games because I'd rather spend the $5 (that most stores deduct for used games) than have a disc that may be defective and/or damaged/non-existent manuals). The only time renting something comes out as a good deal for me is when the movie/game sucks, and in that case I just wasted the money and time on something that sucked ;p

By switching to a pirateable media format like CD or DVD Nintendo will lose some money to decreased software sales to suburban kids and college students. But they will make that money back by selling hardware to low income households who will pirate all their software.

Most companies don't make enough money from hardware sales (short of accessories) to make up anything from pirated games. The only thing that really matters in this equation is that they only lost potential sales to piracy, though a potential sale is never a guaranteed sale, and therefore even 1% of potential sales cannot be counted as any real 'loss to piracy'. If your game sucked and you depended on copy protection to keep people from finding out until they sank $50 into it, then you do have a loss to piracy, but fuck you anyway. The people that made the games that people are pirating widely and actually playing are the ones losing something, but how much is an unknown.

In summary. No piracy causes lower market share, but higher software sales figures. 2 million copies of Zelda as opposed to 1.5 million otherwise. Pirating allows higher market share through more hardware sales, but causes fewer software sales.

Re:Good and bad

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

No, it's not.

only Microsoft and Sega took that route.

Look where Sega is now and where MIcrosoft is going.

Re:Good and bad

[indros13]

By switching to a pirateable media format like CD or DVD Nintendo will lose some money to decreased software sales to suburban kids and college students. But they will make that money back by selling hardware to low income households who will pirate all their software.

Actually, the hardware is sold at a loss to lock people into buying the proprietary software (games). Losing software sales to increased hardware sales will NOT improve the profit margin, because they will decrease sales of high margin items and increase sales of negative margin items.

Game piracy is a big deal, which is why Nintendo goes to great lengths to prevent it.

However, I have to wonder about this. Software piracy is rampant for PCs, for games and popular applications. Yet Blizzard continues to make Warcraft games, Microsoft continues selling Office. Is it a different business model selling games and apps for a PC than selling games for consoles?

Re:Good and bad

[Frozen-Solid]

Actually Sega, Sony, Microsoft AND Nintendo have all taken hits on their console sales. Sega did so with the Dreamcast, Sony did on the PS1 and PS2, and Microsoft did it for the Xbox. Up until the GameCube, Nintendo has never taken a hit on their console sales. They've always made sure that they were getting at least some kind of profit on hardware sales, however for this generation Nintendo is taking a small hit on console sales. Not near as much of one as Microsoft and Sony, but they're taking a hit none-the-less. Console makers depend on software sales to make money, it's as simple as that.

Re:Good and bad

[n0wak]

The other reason is that Nintendo makes a lot of first party titles. Piracy would cause direct loss of dough to Nintendo. The other systems thrive mostly on third party software. So piracy doesn't hurt Sony or Microsoft as much as it hurts Capcom or EA.

I think that's quite wrong. If, because of piracy, Capcom can't make a profit on System X... what reason would they have to further support system X? In that way, piracy DOES hurt Sony and Microsoft -- if Capcom can't profit on either system, they'll stop developing for it. If they stop developing for it, the system loses a lot of that important third party support.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Boing]

Well, the explanation for the GC having more sales of cross-platform games than the PS2 might be related to the plethora of single-platform games on the latter. If you're a PS2 owner, you spend presumably the same amount of money on a much wider selection of games. As a result, each individual game has diminished sales.

Besides the games distributed by Nintendo, and a few other titles (Monkey Ball), most GC games are cross-platform (AFAIK).

Re: discussion... free speach...

[lubricated]

>Slashdot is implicitly condoning this.

No it's not. The tone of the article is completly neutral. If the New York times reported on warez groups being able to pirate the next generation of console games I doubt anyone would say they condone it.

+3 FUNNY

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[faust2097]

Please give an example. Any EA or Sega Sports game? No. Any action sports game [tony hawk, ssx]? No. Need For Speed HP2? No. Crappy licensed movie games? No. Sega Soccer Slam? Maybe.

I like the Gamecube and all but I honestly don't think there's a single game that was released on the PS2, XBox and Gamecube that has sold best on the cube.

Console piracy is overrated.

[Anonymous Coward]

I, like many others, bought a Dreamcast. I had heard that piracy of this system was impossible, though I thought perhaps someone might figure it out. Since piracy was "impossible" however, Sega decided to give a thumbs up to mod chipping, since they figured the number of people interested in importing games was small. As a result, for a time you could go into a smaller game store and have your DC chipped for a fee. I thought about it, since I had never gotten "into" imported games and thought it might be fun, but I wussed out since I didn't want to damage my DC. Oddly, Sega did a 180 and reversed their decision by making a future BIOS revision nullify the mod chips of the time.

Then it happened - people figured out the MIL-CD format and how to "dump" the DC games. DC piracy was on, and I went for it. I had broadband, I had a burner, and I was persistent enough to find places to get the stuff. Best of all, you didn't have to modify your hardware (in fact, it wouldn't work if you had). It just started out as a way to play Dead or Alive 2 for free. My jaw dropped to the floor when I saw the game boot up. My wife didn't get it.

So me and a guy I knew were DC fiends. Hell, I even burned out my 4X burner and had to send it into warranty hell. I pirated anything and everything. I mean, this was a way to get a ton of free games, and pre-PS2, these were the best looking games, too. Plus they didn't have anything holding them back, like CD keys or funny protection schemes. And once they figured out how to make these guys boot without a separate disc, it was even closer to having a "copy" of the game.

At some point though I realized I was spending more time getting and burning the games than I was playing them. I was pirating Japanese RPG's and I don't know a lick of kanji. To this day there are discs I've burned and never played.

And none of this ever even really occured to me until my burner went out and it was two months before I could get a new one back from Creative (remember, this was pre-Lite On, when a good 8X put you back like $200). It drove me nuts that I was going to be "behind" and didn't have enough hard drive space to keep the slack. I had hundreds of discs burned (I backed up the RAR files as well) and little to show for it.

So I stopped. I instead got into the emulation bit, which was fun until NES emulation got perfected (so it's old hat now), SNES emulation got stalled, and Bleem! got shut down.

I have all the major consoles now, and people wonder why someone like me won't chip his Xbox or PS2 and get a DVD Burner and pirate like hell. I know better now. It's a lot more fun to just buy a freaking game (wait until they're $20 if you're cheap) and play the hell out of it instead of wasting your time downloading hundreds of games you'll never touch.

Emulators

[Andorion]

Do you think we'll see GC emulators? The more complex the hardware gets, the more difficult it is to write an emulator.

~Berj

oops

[Andorion]

I guess I should have read all the other "Emulator" comments before opening my mouth =)

~Berj

Passively Marketing the Cube

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Gamecube were really in competition wouldn't "overlooking" pirating actually help its sales? Frankly I'd buy a console that would allow me to play the most games for the least price, while still allowing me to also play (and buy) the latest games.
Don't console marketers consider this? Doesn't Microsoft, cause I think they do.

And in other news...

[The_Pey]

Thousands of people have a new set of coasters!

-1, Troll

[drinkypoo]

Guess I was wrong about some OSS folks, huh? Mod chips and making your own games...that's cool and nerdy. Warez...that's doofus leet bullshit. I'm not interested in leet bullshit. Too bad I can't mod the original story.

What's really too bad is that you were modded up to 5, Insightful, when you should be at -something, troll.

There is such a thing as making copies of games for your own use. They are called either archival backups or... hell, I don't know what you call it specifically when you store the master and play a copy in order to avoid your original being damaged. It's exceptionally useful if you have children, because these systems use optical media which does not respond well to scratches. This is of course why Nintento stuck with carts a full generation longer than everyone else.

Re:-1, Troll

[SwellJoe]

From the original article:

but are said to be hosted on private warez FTP sites

Sorry, that's leet warez bullshit, no matter how you spin it. I'm all for being able to make backups of your rightfully purchased items. I'm not, however, of the opinion that placing those so-called "backups" onto an FTP "warez" site is a defensible practice. If you disagree so strongly with the protection schemes used by Nintendo, don't buy the product. There is no monopoly on video games, and there is no law forcing you to play video games rather than riding a bike or walking on the beach or playing chess. You have many choices for video games: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and Windows/Mac/Linux games. Among those choices there are varying levels of copy protection, many are even Open Source. Make your choices wisely, be an informed consumer, and stop pretending like warez are a noble pursuit.

By purchasing Nintendo, despite the copy protection schemes, you make it clear that you will tolerate such behavior by games producers. By breaking the protection schemes and publishing the games, you make it clear that the schemes are not strong enough or enforced strongly enough, leading to more efforts into making them more difficult to break (and making it more difficult for legitimate users to make those "backup" copies you're so fond of). It also gives content producers more incentive to seek legal remedy to the problem. There is no win here, for honest consumers or the producers.

Re:-1, Troll

[ketamine-bp]

It sort of becomes so when you spread warez of GameCube, on a game that is distributed with the console... (Yes, yes. I do know some of them, or even many of them don't, but all in all, this intends to be funny.)

Re:-1, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I had no idea that every single gamecube in the world that has ever been sold had a copy of zelda bundled. why didnt i get my copy in the metroid prime pack? or my friend when he bought the starfox adventures pack? Or do you mean the gamecubes sold in the last couple of months that came bundled with zelda in limited numbers? yeah, thought so.

Re:-1, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

You stopped reading his post after the first line, didn't you? yeah, thought so.

o....k.....

[JHelgie]

I'm pretty sure by "saving money" he meant that by, as you say, "stealing", he would have to spend LESS money to aquire these games than he would if he was to go out and buy it. Why you thought it necessary to go off rambling about how piracy is theft simply because he said he would be "saving money" is beyond me, he never said that it WASNT stealing, simply that the money coming from his pocket would be lower.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[AaronBaker2000]

I'm a huge gamecube fan and I follow gamecube news on a regular basis. However, I've never heard anything that supports your statements. Please provide a source.

N64 Emulator

[ProfessionalCookie]

Actually there are several N64 emulators...Sixty Force is one of the oldes and the best, to quote emulation.net "it has sound support, and the speeds are excellent on a fast G3 or G4. Most importantly, many games seem to work perfectly." Others include True Reality and Mupen 64 both of which have Linux Windows and Mac ports.

Re:N64 Emulator

[bedouin]

You know if there's any decent Atari Jaguar emulator for Macintosh? It's one machine I always thought looked cool and wanted to try. I've been tempted to Ebay one.

For More News..

[windsok]

keep an eye on www.cubehacker.com as well as, #gamecube #cubehacker on EFnet.

Re: discussion... free speach...

[cicatrix1]

I think you must just be shocked because slashdot is reporting news . It's rare, but I guess this article proves it can happen. There is not really a lot of corrolary between reporting news and condoning the stories' content unless explicitly stated, which it isn't, here.

Woo

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's sites like yours that make me feel sorry for the future of gaming websites.

Genuis!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then use a CNC router to change the bits in the TOC that describes the media. Make sure and change it to reflect the new content area size.

Re:Genuis!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no need to do that. The person burning knows how much space is available. Just ignore the disc's info. Just don't go trying to burn more than the disc can hold and you're fine.

Religious Right

[Jennifer E. Elaan]

My religion tells me it's not stealing to make copies of files. How else are we to grep for the meaning of life?

pirating games... w00t w00t

[dR.fuZZo]

Awhile back I looked up an old friend of mine that I hadn't seen in years. I went over to his place and he showed off his Dreamcast and a stack of pirated games.

My reaction? Channeling Stan and Kyle: Hey! You killed the Dreamcast! You bastard!!!

duplicating

[Anonymous Coward]

hi!
can't i just take the orig. disc of my friend put
it in a photo-copy maschine and print it on paper. cut out the circle and insert it into my
(non-existent) game-cube?
-
Wipeout 64, forever! (15 sec first track, piranha)

Why the hell does this get press from y'all?

[joshamania]

Excuse me, but isn't posting to a majore news outlet the details of video game piracy a little, well, dumb?

Not dumb in the sense that it is going to get /. in trouble, but none of you all should disagree about this type of activity (pirating GameCube games) being illegal.

It's just stupid that it seems that the /. crowd is pro-piracy when this shit gets posted, and it gets posted at least once a month.

You are associating yourselves with illegal behavior by posting this crap. Leave the warez posts to warez sites.

Re:Why the hell does this get press from y'all?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I's is gonna guess that "y'all" thinks it's bad that the local news reports on bad things happening in y'alls neighbourhood?

Ah means, if awl tha youngins is believin' that crimes is happenin', they awl might be associatin' themselves wit tha illegal behaviours thems sees on the TV, right?

Re:Why the hell does this get press from y'all?

[freeweed]

I disagree with the actions of the RIAA when they go around suing college kids for writing search engines, but I still think it's important for Slashdot to post the story.

Your point again was?

Re:Why the hell does this get press from y'all?

[joshamania]

Well, sure, the RIAA's a bunch of jerks, but this story has nothing to do with the RIAA. It's about a group of crackers that are distributing software illegally. And it's not from a law enforcement perspective.

In fact, if these jag-offs that are stealing games didn't do what they do, we wouldn't be having as many problems with the RIAA ruining CD's and such.

There's a turn of phrase for this type of group of people. It's called "organized crime". It should not be glorified or given attention outside of a law-enforcement context.

And to the other dickhead. I'm from Chi-caw-go and I'll type words how I like, fuckball.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Lumpy]

hard to believe the PS2 with nearly 3 times the user base is selling LESS than the Cube, but it's true.

Have you even looked at the games for the PS2? Most of them suck horribly or are nothing but a rehash of something old.. Come On I have 6 driving games 2 skatebording games and 3 puzzle games. Why would I want another 6 driving games that are no better than what I have.. to hell with the skateboard/bmx/rollerblade/snowboard/whatever crap... it's boring. The Ps2 games are uninspiring and overall boring crap. It's sad because Sony had the world by the nads with the PS1 and could have done it with the PS2... but they somehow lost it.. I desperately want a ps2 version of the fun games we had for the PS1.. but they dont produce them...

The GC? I have 1/2 as many games for my GC as the PS2... I play the GC more (Super Mario Smash Meelee is a absolute blast making anything on the PS2 look stupid) super mario sunshine rocks, pikman, and with zelda coming... No contest...

if they want to completely kill sony and Microsoft.. release goldeneye for the GC and super mario Kart Game Cube.

yeah, running around killing hookers is a blast for a while... but I prefer to play with my kids and have a royal bast doing it.. Game Cube has the others beat.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, Zelda got released a WHILE ago!

What the hell?

[pclminion]

Now, I agree with you that posting a pirate wankfest to the front page of Slashdot is just plain idiotic. I'm sick of seeing articles brazenly encouraging illegal behavior (regardless of what we might think of those laws).

But what the hell are you talking about Open Source for? I didn't see Open Source mentioned anywhere, and given that the majority of Slashdot readers use Windows as indicated in a recent poll I think it's kind of funny to refer to the whole of Slashdot as "Open Source culture."

Re:What the hell?

[Neophytus]

just because i use windows doesnt mean i don't support open source

Re:What the hell?

[Kethinov]

given that the majority of Slashdot readers use Windows as indicated in a recent poll I think it's kind of funny to refer to the whole of Slashdot as "Open Source culture."

You ever heard of open source software for Windows, bud? Yes. It does exist! *Gasp*

Pilotwings

[Iscariot_]

As interested as I am in Rogue Squadron III, I am more looking forward to the Gamecube incarnation of Pilotwings. Rumor has it that Factor 5 will be the developer this time around.

I've also read, but cannot find the link, that Rogue Squadron III actually started out as a technology demo to show Nintendo what they were capable of.

Anyway, there's two great games to look forward to for us Gamecube owners.

Re:Pilotwings

[willr7]

I read somewhere that Factor 5 is doing PilotWings.

Also, aren't you speaking of Rogue Squadron II starting out as a tech demo?

That game rocked.

Re:Pilotwings

[Iscariot_]

Also, aren't you speaking of Rogue Squadron II starting out as a tech demo?

No, it's definitely Rogue Squadron III, or at least that's what I read. Pilotwings is more than flying planes, there's jetpack and stuff like that. I guess that's where some of the 3rd person stuff came in. Maybe we'll see the ability to switch vehicles in GCN Pilotwings!

useful

[poot_rootbeer]

ISO images of Gamecube games that can't be played or used in any way, huh? Wow, that's MEGA USEFUL!

Here, I have something that's just as useful:

$ dd -if /dev/urandom -of /dev/cdrw

Enjoy!

game and not game...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no issue with taking a pirated game and playing it. If I do like it, I eventually buy it, as I want the company to be able to make more of the same or similar. When I first started playing Half-Life I had the pirated version for about 2 years before buying the CD at the store. I have since bought approximately five copies of the SAME game for various reasons.

That's just for games.

Non-game software I have no issue pirating it or aquiring a pirated version for my own personal use. As a technology consultant, these companies should be paying me to recommend their software to my clients/others.

Since they do not pay me, I will not pay them....

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[mattACK]

Please give us a source for your information. Frankly I don't believe it. The so called "Attach Rate" is higher for Xbox than for GC, the sales are far higher, so forth. Look up your own source for this: everyone knows it. Given that the user base in the USA is at most 1/6th the base of the PS2, I believe that you are entirely and completely wrong.

Idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot makes no sense. Why you ask?

Someone commented on this the other day, and those A+ moderators eventually gave this guys comment a -5.

Now it's front page news!!!

Amazing how shit /. has become since it started.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

wow really a WHILE ago is 1 year... or are you talking the release date of 2.5 weeks ago....

that is not a WHILE ago... that is just yesterday to people who work for a living...

Dont know about anyone else but january seemed like it was just a couple of weeks ago to me...

image

[h4x0r-3l337]

So somebody does a dump of a CD and posts the resulting image online. And this is news WHY?

Emulation!!

[D4rkSt4lker]

Great, now we can get the ISOs. Time for the emulator!! I *know* Nintento releases a GamecubeOS emulator with its development kit, maybe someone would be kind enough to leak it! 8)

Re:warez rulez

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't care if the "game industry" would cease to exist tomorow, there are enough NES, SNES, Gameboy, Neo-Geo etc. roms out to play. There are also people who make games for fun (Nethack, IF, etc.) and some even do something creative.

Same goes fore the "music industry" and other "industries" that produce "intelectual properity".

unwritable sectors?

[phorm]

What I remember hearing on /. at sometime was that (and it may be wrong, it was on slashdot) various discs come with an unmodifyable "header" to identify the media type. That is, something that says, this is a "normal CD", this is a "DVD", and perhaps to differentiate the different capacities of discs.
Would make sense... how does my burner automagically know that a disc is only intended to be written at 48x after just a quick spin+preread? How does it know a CD+RW from a CDR?

Anyhow, if that is the case, why can't a company simply slap on something that identifies a disc as a different format header? That is, if the format doesn't say "this is a DVD", but instead "this is a gamecube DVD"... then it could happily ignore standard recordable DVD-ROM's. This is probably used to some extent already - which is why mod-chips are needed to use non-proprietary discs - but I'm sure if could be modified further to include perhaps an encrypted hash or something required to allow a disc to run.

If they're printing out millions of discs for a Mario game, I'm they could afford a modified header on the production discs.

Slashdotted?

[MyHair]

*** OUT OF STOCK ***

You slashdotted the mini DVDs. Are you proud? :-)

I can´t believe nobody said this yet....

[Anonymous Coward]

When weÂll see Linux / NetBSD for GC??????

I need to build my GC beowu.... nevermind.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[d3kk]

The Nintendo website says the release date was March 24th. Sorry.

Nonsense.

[Frac]

Because it's not. It's copyright infingement. It's still a crime, but it's not stealing. Theft deprives the original owner of the property use of said property.

Nonsense.

So if I buy a DVD from Best Buy, I'm stealing? Afterall, even though I gave them cash in exchange for the purchase of the DVD, I'm still depriving Best Buy the use of said property.

steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) stoÂlen, (stln) stealÂing, steals
v. tr.

1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

When you pirate, you have acquired the intangible IP of the game company without right or permission. Therefore it's stealing.

Re:Nonsense.

[pHDNgell]

1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

Cool, now define ``take'' sufficiently. Have I taken away the property of another if he still has it?

This is a circular argument.

When you pirate, you have acquired the intangible IP of the game company without right or permission. Therefore it's stealing.

But the original owner still has it and the effect on him is such that he can't possibly detect that it was ``stolen.''

I believe this all comes down to opinion, but in mine, if you can't detect that something is missing, it wasn't stolen (or taken, etc...).

Copyright infringement is its own crime. It just doesn't make sense to content consumers, so they use the word ``theft'' so their consumers can relate.

Re:Nonsense.

[Frac]

Cool, now define ``take'' sufficiently. Have I taken away the property of another if he still has it?

Wrong. Notice the definition is to "take the property", and not to "take away the property". Everything can be argued if you're going to add extra words to the definition...

You took it without right or permission, therefore you stole it.

But the original owner still has it and the effect on him is such that he can't possibly detect that it was ``stolen.''

if you can't detect that something is missing, it wasn't stolen (or taken, etc...)

Detection has nothing to do with it. Suppose I were to inherit a bag of gold coins, and I did not have the opportunity to calculate how much it's worth. If someone takes a coin from the bag, it would be stealing, even though there's no way I can "detect" the missing gold coin.

Re:Nonsense.

[pHDNgell]

Wrong. Notice the definition is to "take the property", and not to "take away the property". Everything can be argued if you're going to add extra words to the definition...

Fine, ``Have I taken the property of another if he still has it?'' I don't see the difference between those two statements, but if you think there is one...

Detection has nothing to do with it. Suppose I were to inherit a bag of gold coins, and I did not have the opportunity to calculate how much it's worth. If someone takes a coin from the bag, it would be stealing, even though there's no way I can "detect" the missing gold coin.

I was talking about the ability to detect it which has a distinction. If you take a gold coin from my bag, I have fewer gold coins than I had before (whether or not I know how many I had is not relevant there). If you copy a work I've produced, I still have produced the same number of works and still have as much access to all of them as I had before. The damage you have done is not theft.

Why would we even have copyright infringement as a crime if it was really just theft of property?

Re:Nonsense.

[The_dev0]

Obviously not,as you have PAID to have BestBuy transfer ownership of said media to you. Why is it that the WORST FUCKING ANALOGIES creep out of the woodwork every time this subject comes up? Oh, that's right, it is the whiny sound of a million 733T jerk-offs trying to justify their 20 gig of copyright infringement.

Re:Nonsense.

[caouchouc]

It's great that you referred to the dictionary to make your point and all, but you intentionally misrepresented the definition by taking only the ambiguous reference that suited your argument. As another respondant to your post pointed out, "take" is not defined in a sufficiently unambiguous manner.

stealing
Steal \Steal\, v. t. [imp. Stole; p. p. Stolen; p. pr. & vb. n. Stealing.] [OE. stelen, AS. stelan; akin to OFries. stela, D. stelen, OHG. stelan, G. stehlen, Icel. stela, SW. stj["a]la, Dan. sti[ae]le, Goth. stilan.] 1. To take and carry away, feloniously; to take without right or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal the personal goods of another.

\Steal"ing\, n. 1. The act of taking feloniously the personal property of another without his consent and knowledge; theft; larceny.

\Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.] 1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.

larÂceÂny
The unlawful taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of permanently depriving the owner; theft.

You cannot steal anything intangible like IP, by definition. There is a reason why patent and copyright law exists.
You could not have missed the above information in the dictionary, so you probably realized you were wrong even if you didn't want to accept that you were.

Re:Nonsense.

[Frac]

Obviously not,as you have PAID to have BestBuy transfer ownership of said media to you.

Doesn't mean squat - this is not a matter of an analogy breaking apart, but rather this is a matter of "Theft deprives the original owner of the property use of said property" being a idiotic and wrong definition.

Oh, that's right, it is the whiny sound of a million 733T jerk-offs trying to justify their 20 gig of copyright infringement.

I agree... Now if you would just stop whining...

Re:Nonsense.

[The_dev0]

No, you said:

So if I buy a DVD from Best Buy, I'm stealing? Afterall, even though I gave them cash in exchange for the purchase of the DVD, I'm still depriving Best Buy the use of said property.

That is incorrect. Best Buy transfer ownership to you upon purchase. It's that fucking simple. There is no theft, you are not trading the DVD for cash, after which they give up their rights to ownership. The analogy was faulty to begin with.

Now if you would just stop whining...

Nice try, but you obviously need to brush up on your reading comprehension. I'm not one of the group trying to justify their warez by arguing semantics, while you on the other hand...

It's an American tradition

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't steal, just like we don't launch illegitimate military invasions. We infringe on copyright, and we liberate.

Re:It's an American tradition

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like how France was funding Iraq, right? European double standards are hilariously amusing.

Here they are:

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a warez monkey and I don't like gamecube that much but a friend of mine gave me the link to this page that claims to have the ISO images for download. It seems to be legit, but I don't know how long they'll be up. If anyone can confirm it, great. The page with the ISOs is here. I'm sure it'll be slashdotted before long.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[dmv]

It was released around then.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Could this perhaps be because there are _So Few_ games for the NGC in teh first place?

I mean if your console only has a few titles ... well you do the math.

for more news

[Anonymous Coward]

www.gamecubehacker.net ;)

justify their behavior somehow

[yajacuk]

I agree with you in this. These people do not care that they are putting the company out of business with their pirating and forcing the government and law enforcement to restrain our free speech on the net.

I have recently dumped all my illegal CD's of music, games, video, and apps. To tell you the truth, I was a bit amazed at how much stuff I had. About 10 mp3 cd's (I have a mp3 player), 60 divx cd's, 10 game cd's, and about 10 app cd's.

I trashed the cd's because I felt like downloading them from the internet was the same as going to the store and walking away with the cd's without paying for it.

That was my reasoning for changing my attitude, but most people can always justify their behavior somehow.

Re:justify their behavior somehow

[Wesser]

yajacuk, I think it's wonderful that you've found the lord. Your altruism just amazes me to no end. [cough]bullshit[cough]

cheap vs. greedy

[10bt]

i am still undecided whether there are more cheap people in this world than greedy people. or are they mostly the same people?

people who support warez should work for free and share everything they have with the commons, for they are communists at heart. i'm not saying communism is innately a bad thing, just that people who expect to get everything for free should also free everything they have in return.

i admit i have used pirated stuff before, but i try to attain things legally when possible, and i never go out of my way to hunt down warez when there are legal -- and relatively cheap -- alternatives available everywhere.

I posted this yesterday...

[Anonymous Coward]

Familiar

Oh but that time it was a Troll .. right, yeah. I see.

For Backup Purposes Only!!!

[heli0]

They are not publicly available to everyone, but are said to be hosted on private warez FTP sites.

The.Legend.Of.Zelda.Gamecube.torrent

Download this if you own the game and want to exercise your legal right to "make one copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT solely for backup or archival purposes."

to record?

[falso]

I if get this iso, i just need a normal dvd recorder to burn it right?
Or some kind of special software?

Re:to record?

[Frozen-Solid]

Well first you need some gasoline and a lighter. The easiest way would be to pour the gasoline all over the computer for a minute or two and then light it up, but that could burn more then you planned. You best bet would be to open up the case and take out hte hard drive and just burn that.

Catagories of Crime - Theft, Fraud, and Copyrights

[sqlzealot]

One of the problems with law for digital/information issues is that traditional examples of crime do not apply. Let's try a different set of examples:

Theft - You sneak into Nintendo headquarters, make a copy of their disk, and start handing out the copies.

Fraud - You convince Nintendo you are hardware developers and they give you a copy of the disk to play around with, which you copy and distribute.

Copyright Infringement - You buy a disk from the store with a with an wrapper agreement stating you cannot give out copies to your friends. You ignore the wrapper and give them out anyway.

All of these are crimes, but they treated differently by the law. Con-artists will in general get less jail time then burglers, and I would hope copyright infringers would just be fined. Yes all of these deprive Nintendo of potential earnings, but so does competition. The question is the degree of harm and the answer is rarely black and white.

sigless

Actually, it might not be a scratched disk

[N10sb2002]

I have had Metroid Prime freeze on me 3 out of the four times my Gamecube has frozen (the other was in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4) and one of them was in a Transport. It was the Transport to Chozo Ruins from Tallon Overworld that you go to at the beginning of the game which is the most popular place for the game to freeze and is because of a software bug that causes the game to freeze in certain spots in Chozo Ruins (all of the times it froze I was in Chozo Ruins). Whew! That was a run-on sentence.

Re:Actually, it might not be a scratched disk

[EvilSporkMan]

Yes, it was exactly that transport. Ok, so the disk isn't scratched =)

Experiment to verify CDs burned from inside out

[yerricde]

Start your CD digital audio recording software and set it to "track at once".

Place a blank CDDA-R disc in your recorder. Record three audio tracks. Remove the CD from the recorder and look at the underside of the disc. Notice a boundary between two differently colored washer-shaped regions of the disc's data area.

Place the disc in your recorder again. Record three more audio tracks. Look again at the disc's underside. Notice that the darker color has expanded into the area that was once lighter colored.

Record three more tracks. By now you should notice a pattern: adding new tracks to a disc expands the dark area outward. Therefore, guess that the darker area is the recorded area, and that the disc is recorded from inside to outside.

Compact Disc and DVD media are mastered in a spiral track that runs from inside to outside when the disc is spun counter-clockwise (viewed from the data side) or clockwise (viewed from the label side). The second layer of a dual-layer disc runs from outside to inside. It appears that Xbox and GameCube disc formats may place their boot sectors on the second layer, which means that the discs are read from outside in. Uncareful reporters may confuse this with a disc that spins backwards; no popular open-disc optical medium does this.

Time for a new analogy!

[a.deity]

Mod me offtopic if you must, but, in the commentary of this article, I see too many analogies of music/software/movie piracy as being flawed They're getting close, but not quite there. I think I've got a good one, though. Feel free to poke holes in my argument, maybe we can all come to an agreement without "cloning your neighbor's car."

You take a picture of a painting, just outside of a gift shop that sells high-resolution prints. You take your camera home, frame and print your picture of the painting. You invite friends over to your home to admire the print every once in a while, and you've made prints for a few friends too.

There. Fire away.

Posted logged in because I'm not afraid.

Re:Time for a new analogy!

[ajs318]

I like it and I don't see anything wrong with it.

You want the frame and the Certificate of Originality, you buy the original. You don't care so much about the frame or the certificate, you just want to look at the picture, you buy a copy. Simple. Brilliant.

Of course, if you have eidetic memory, then you don't even need the photograph ..... I wonder what the "intellectual property" brigade would say about that?

Re:Time for a new analogy!

[matlokheed]

Slightly incorrect.

If you take a picture of a painting from outside the gift shop, you are going to get something slightly less than what the actual painting is. You'll get glare off of the window. Possibly cropping issues unless your hands are steady as a rock. In every way when you do something like that (which seems wacky in the first place), you get an inferior product. The product is particularly inferior in the manner in which it's to be used, specifically for viewing purposes.

In the case of copying a game, you get something that is a perfect copy of the game save for the box and label on the disc. In the case of the game, the focus of the game isn't on the box or the labelling (hopefully), but should be on the content of the game which isn't changed at all by the copying process (debatable with burned game playing bootups, but still holds).

By making a copy of a game, you benefit perfectly from the product without giving those who put the effort into making it any consideration. That's why it's not good.

Almost, but not quite right...

[LordZardoz]

Nintendo did not choose the cartridge to only prevent piracy. They did it because doing so generated more profits per game sold. Nintendo owned the patents on their cartridge's. The real reasoning was probably along these lines.

1) More profits per game
2) More difficult to Pirate
3) No loading times.

The reason that the publishers did not support the N64 is that producing a playstation game (Or saturn game for that matter) was cheaper. A cd is cheaper to manufacture then a cartridge.

Nintendo's use of the miniature disks also has less to do with piracy and more to do with manufacturing costs. First, since they dont play DVD's, they do not have to pay any fee's to use that technology. The cost per console is cheaper as a result. Nintendo figured that people who want to watch DVD's are going to buy a DVD player.

Assuming that the choice of avoiding or reducing piracy will win out over econimics for any console developer is just stupid. Its an important secondary concern, but not the primary concern. At least not right now, and certantly not 7 years ago.

END COMMUNICATION

Honestly...

[Xaroth]

3l11t.nz writes "Some hackers somewhere said that they could run PS2 dvd's on their Commodore 64's by simply writing on the discs with crayon. No one has confirmed this, and the pictures are only available to a select few people right now. My brother said he heard of it, but that is unconfirmed."

Loser...

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats to you for trying to make Slashdot a piracy ring.

Re:Loser...

[Anonymous Coward]

and i suppose that posting links to legal encrypttion software that could aid terrorists would make slashdot a terrorist ring?

Theft of service != copyright; possible fair use?

[yerricde]

Theft of service typically involves a breach of contract, right?

You go to the doctor.

And sign a contract.

You go to your lawyer.

And sign a contract.

You go to your lawyer.

And sign a contract.

You go to work.

And sign a contract.

You lift a game off IRC.

This is different. A contract between myself and the publisher is not involved here. Only copyright law is, and it makes several exceptions which (I admit) don't allow mass piracy of games on the scale typically observed on IRC. I don't pirate games of which the publisher is still selling copies.

On the other hand, I sometimes copy works which the copyright owner has indicated no desire to exploit in the present or foreseeable future. If we take the copyright owner's refusal to sell copies as an admission that the work's value is within epsilon of zero, my copying may be fair because 1. I'm not making further commercial use of the work, and 4. it does not diminish the value of that work because nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

You justify this because it does not deprive the retailer, wholesaler, publisher, and shareholders of any property.

I buy a copy of a game directly from the publisher. Does this deprive the retailer and its wholesaler of potential profit? I buy a copy of a game at Best Buy. Does this deprive the Wal-Mart store next door of potential profit?

Humming a tune is infringement

[yerricde]

Humming a tune instead of buying a CD?

Humming a tune in front of any person other than your family and social acquaintances is a public performance of a musical work as defined in 17 USC 101. Unauthorized public performance is possibly an infringement of copyright by 17 USC 106.

DWI?

[yerricde]

My fiance and I regularly sit around playing our GBA SPs together, and DDR is one of my favorite ways to work out.

One question about DDR:

Do you think downloading a song off MP3.com, making a stepfile, and playing it in DWI or StepMania constitutes taking of money that should otherwise belong to Konami?

Re:DWI?

[The_dev0]

No, because those songs are the property of the original artist, and are given out free by their own choice. If you were to download a song you don't own off Shareza/Kazaa/whatever and use that, it would be an infringement.

Re:DWI?

[moonsammy]

I know extremely little about those programs (just gave a quick look at the sites) and haven't visited mp3.com umm... ever, but I don't think there would be anything wrong with what you described. The songs (judging by another response to your post) are freely distributed, as are those programs. Konami doesn't have a monopoly on "ddr-like" games, they just happened to make them really popular. IIRC, there was an aerobics game for the old 8-bit NES that used the Power Pad and was pretty comparable to DDR in general style, so there's some prior art if Konami claims a patent or some such jibba-jabba.

So no. What you described seems to be a perfectly valid alternative to buying Konami's game. It would require a lot more work and not be as user-friendly, so I doubt it even represents serious competition to Konami. I'll stick with my DDRMAX personally :)

Photoshop Elements

[yerricde]

it's alright if I download Photoshop 7.0 because I can't afford it

If you can't afford Adobe Photoshop Elements (100 USD or so), which includes everything in Adobe Photoshop except for high-end pre-press function, you're probably unemployed.

Re:Photoshop Elements

[Anonymous Coward]

That is completely irrelevant to the scope of this discussion. Please stop trying to post every single brainfart you have, please?

Why alternative energy is 20 years behind

[yerricde]

Just wait until the OIAA (Oil Industry Association of America) takes you to court for stealing their profits!

Worse yet: The oil industry will often perform hostile takeovers of companies with promising alternative energy technologies. Then they sit on the takeover victim's patents until they expire. That's part of why alternative energy always seems 20 years behind.

Likewise, media consolidation. EA, Universal, and Microsoft buy up various publishers of games.

The "real" reason...

[ndogg]

The real reason this was done was to get Linux on the GameCube, right?

Re:The "real" reason...

[j_at_work]

Hey, why not?

Piracy not only reason, nor probably the biggest

[yerricde]

Sega didn't market the Dreamcast well. Look what happened to the system.

Pirating music CDs is easy. Look what happened to sales per title: they went up slightly. The drop in total sales after Kazaa took off may be due to Kazaa, but I think it's more due to fewer new titles.

well second

[Anonymous Coward]

I do have a dvd drive, and third, It did for me.......weird.......i guess that was on 10.1 though..maybe 10.2 has fixed the problem...

Prediction:

[crashnbur]

GameCube sales will jump.
GameCube game sales will plummet.

An odd combination, sure, but piracy is to technology what marijuana is to medicine -- there are good arguments for and against legality, and it's fun for anyone that doesn't get caught...

Re:Prediction:

[gorre]

but piracy is to technology what marijuana is to medicine -- there are good arguments for and against legality
There are good arguments for legalizing piracy?
Are you mad?

mod parent down

[DarkEdgeX]

I wish I had mod points, because this is troll material through and through. Slashdot has ALWAYS posted stories like this, from the CSS encryption being cracked to NetBSD being booted up on a Dreamcast to the CPS-2 encryption used by Capcom being cracked (I'd provide links, but I don't think I need to for anyone who's read on Slashdot for any reasonable period of time). All posted stories here on Slashdot, all of them never resulted in /. being shut down. In fact, the only story that actually caused a ruckus was a story about those freaks at the L. Ron Hubbard foundation (or whatever it is), and it wasn't even the story-- some reader/poster posted the full text of a copyrighted book in a response to the article and /. ended up deleting the contents of the message.

This is news. GC discs, from all reasonable sources, were supposedly unreadable (do a Google search, especially on usenet, there have been a few threads over the years trying to even READ the discs). I'm sorry it's not your brand of news, so maybe you could just avoid reading this stuff and leave the rest of us who are concerned with security, hardware and gaming alone?

Re: discussion... free speach...

[DarkEdgeX]

So CNN, by posting an article on the Lacy Peterson murder on their front page, is condoning murder?

You have some screwed up logic.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[Eric Destiny]

in soviet russia, game cube pirates YOU!

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Talk about manipulating statistics again... PS2 has probably 10x as many games available for it (at LEAST). This gives the PS2 owners more choice for the games they buy, which generally translates to less sales for each individual game. Logical, no? Some games break this pattern though, and are very popular. GTA: Vice City comes to mind.

So don't go trying to slam the PS2 and put the GC in the limelight with misdirection like this.

Oh, and the sports game problem on GC? It's because most of the GC gamers are kids and most kids don't go for sports games. The sports series were almost always Sega's bread and butter, but now that they don't have a system, it's mostly PS2 and X-Box that have all the sports titles. Sports fans will likely head to these systems in that case.

This is a stupid reponce

[Omestes]

So my boycotting Walmart and McDonalds is theft? after all I'm depriving them of profits, so by your logic I'm stealing from them...

Also, when I listen to the radio (which I don't) I am depriving the record folk of my purchase of a pricy single. Samething as when I use a schools computer lab, or public library rather than buying a computer, I am depriving someone money.

When I listen to a CD at a freinds house, I am likewise depriving someone money. Or borrow my freinds Xbox and games for a week.

Depriving profits IS NOT theft. Read the definition: (from webster.com)
1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen
3 : a stolen base in baseball

Profits is not personal property, or a base, so you can't STEAL it. Profit isn't a given, it isn't an object, therefore theft isn't possible. To me I don't think that copying digital media (games music software ebooks) should be a legal matter, it is the companies problem to protect their bottom line, not mine. They have the right to make it hard to copy, and I have the right to try to find a way to copy it... Piracy is a moral issue, do you support that which you like, so it continues to exist.

I will BUY games I support, like the Unreal series, the Fallout series, and anything by Blizzard. I will pirate companies/developers I don't, like the Zelda franchise since they ruined it after Zelda 1(nes), any Square game since FFVII, games by EA, music by anyone popular today, ect... Though mostly I just ignore them, since if I don't support them, there is a reason, the company sucks, the franchise sucks, they have no ethics, ect...

And then again I do do the cliche "test" piracy, I download a song or game from KazaaLite, test it out, then buy it if I approve of the quality. And if I don't like the quality, I'll delete it. Unless, of course, it is a CD, where on song rocks, and the rest are just top40 crap.

Being a straight pirate is bad. Being a consumer dupe is worse. Being an ethical pirate is good. Hell, being an ethical anything is good.

Re:This is a stupid reponce

[sillyputty]

So my boycotting Walmart and McDonalds is theft? after all I'm depriving them of profits, so by your logic I'm stealing from them...

Obviously not, because you're not getting anything from them. Choosing not to buy a thing is not depriving a company of profits, because there were no potential profits to begin with.

I will pirate companies/developers I don't, like the Zelda franchise since they ruined it after Zelda 1(nes), any Square game since FFVII, games by EA, music by anyone popular today, ect

These are stealing. The franchises are so ruined, but you HAVE to play them? Skipping the glaring hypocrisy, if you play the game then it (probably) entertained you. You have received a service. If the service was intended to be only available to people who pay and you do not pay, then you're a thief.

I don't really care what you do - just be honest about it. Have I ever pirated? You bet. And when I did, I stole. And so do you. I don't understand why people who are willing to concede that they are breaking the law are so upset with being called "thief." It's like you don't want to lumped in with common criminals... but if you're breaking the law for nothing more than personal gain, how are you any better?

sp

Re:This is a stupid reponce

[Omestes]

I attached a qualifier to my statment on ethics, I said I usually don't, being that there is a reason that they're on my shortlist (namely they suck, as in the Zelda example). But then there are the companies on my list that I disagree with for primarily ethical reasons, like Microsoft, and EA. these companies I really don't care about, I really don't care if I "steal" their property (though as mentioned in an earlier post, you can't steal something no one has, you can't steal /potential/). Microsoft also charges too much, I just built a computer, and Microsoft products cost as much as high end hardware. Being that I'm poor, and refuse to buy prefab PCs, I don't give a rats ass.

The argument could be made that there is no potential profits to be gleamed from most (or some) of piracy. $50 is a lot of money for me (and I figure 80% of the pop would agree), meaning I'm only going to buy things that are superior quality, or things that are needed for my work/studies/hobbies, meaning I have a limited amount of "digital media funds" that will go to products. Anything that is not of very high quality to my investment, is probably not going to get bought, but if it is available, I will download it, if I kinda need it. But I wouldn't buy it, probably COULDN'T buy some things. So if I find it on s73am1n6W4R3z.com, I might get it if it has a possible function, though I woulnd't buy it.

Conversly, most of the warez I've downloaded, I've deleted within a week. Meaning I'm protecting myself as a consumer, if I coughed up 50+ for it, I would of been screwed.

Also, I'm the only person I know with a registered copy of winRAR, I mean ACTUALLY registered, and not just keygened. So I'm not THAT bad. My old 66mhz was 100% pirated. This box is 0%, not counting mp3s and ROMs.

I think that if people started pricing software at non-luxury-item prices, things might improve for them. Same thing for games, CDs, and DVDs.

Great

[Tsuzuki]

Obviously the Nintendo slant I've previously sensed on games.slashdot means absolutely nothing.

Piracy may "work" for the PS and PS2, but it didn't "work" for the Dreamcast. I think Sega giving up on hardware or the Wipeout series stopping development is drastic enough, don't you? As an owner of all three of the above consoles, I can't believe you're trying to kick the crap out of a console when it's already down.

The_Legend_Of_Zelda_The_Wind_Waker_USA_NGC-STARCUB

[jayoyayo]

I submitted this story last week but it was rejected. I suspect it was because i linked to Starcube's site, despite the fact that there is really not much there save for a few nfo-Files.

Funny thing eh?

[amd60305]

With those pics they say they grabbed, i think could've been done by anyone, anyone with video input, if you look at the pictures, they are basically the ones from the memory card screen which can easily be cropped out. or editted in photoshop. personally i think it is very ignorant of them (starcube) to be doing something like this. part of life is the challenges that it holds, i remember being a little kid and renting the same game from a rental place multiple times just because i couldn't afford to buy it. it didn't bother me much. now i am older and that game that i played is now a ROM that can be perfectly emulated on most computers. i don't play that game emulated simply because now i own it. it was harvest moon for SNES. i didn't buy it for myself but my parents did, they saw how much i liked it and bought it for me one Christmas. it was very nice waking up and opening a gift and behold the game that i stayed up playing was now mine never to be returned to anyone else. i can see how it might be different soon, parents burning games illegally and giving that to their kid. i can tell you how he will grow up, wanting everything, knowing that all he has to do is ask for something and in a matter of hours it will be in his hands. there is no challenge in that. now let me think back to the time i bought my first gamecube, i waited in line at midnight the sunday before Church at a wallmart and got one. it was a nice feeling to have, knowing that in a matter of minutes i would have my own gamecube. that wait and patience that i had was worth the while it had been. imagine if nothing had any wait, life wouldn't be very great. those challenges are what make life worth living. the challenge of saving money, borrowing money, no matter what it be you are saving for. it is for a cause. looking at morals. why do you want to pirate games? there is no reason i can see, for those that laugh i want an honest reply. do you kill someone because it is the easiest way out. do you harm one another because it costs less than paying someone for a job well done? not only will most classic feelings we had as youth brought up in times of great video games be gone, but many people lose money, time, and many other things. Nintendo won't specifically lose money except for the games that it makes, Midway will also lose sales, same with all other 3rd parties. Nintendo seems to be the only failsafe with their sales until the day backups can be played on their system. the reason gameboy is doing so well is because there are always little kids that can afford to save the money to buy a game they want. the number of people that play the games emulated or backed up does not outweigh the younger generation that does things the legal way. anyways i'm a little lost in my thoughts right now, so if i seem confused or confusing i am sorry.

That's SUCH a lie

[M3wThr33]

The XBox's game-to-console ratio is SKEWED. They INCLUDE the game-disc it comes with as TWO titles that you paid for in that number. They also consider "worldwide" as "USA, Europe and Australia" in their press releases.

And I think the person means RATIO, the percent of GCN owners that get it.

Re:That's SUCH a lie

[mattACK]

The comment was meant to be read in order. My point was that if the lowly xbox is beating it, then the PS2 is surely beating the hell out of it.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy cow. Look Slashdot, we have someone here who actually BELIEVES press releases put out by Microsoft!

So are you currently paid by Microsoft or simply hoping to be employed by them in the future?

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[mattACK]

Well, AC, the point was actually that if the Xbox is beating it, then the PS2 is beating the piss out of it. Here in America, we read left to right, top to bottom. :p

Re:Theft of service != copyright; possible fair us

[sasami]

Theft of service typically involves a breach of contract, right?

Not that I know of, no. That's why it's theft. Let's take these you replied to:

You go to the doctor and sign a contract: Never done that. I could walk out of the office without paying a thing.

You go to your lawyer and sign a contract: Never done that. I could walk out of the office without paying a thing.

In both these cases, the service provider has no recourse against me but to take me to court. And then it's my word against theirs unless they can prove I was there. I've personally been ripped off by tenants this way, to the tune of thousands of dollars (that wouldn't be theft of service; only an illustration that there's no easy recourse).

You go to work and sign a contract: My contract is with my employer and it says that I get paid; I have no contract with my friend saying I won't steal his ideas for my own credit.

Let's add some more:

You get on the subway: Without paying, of course. I signed no contract.

Your house is on fire: Thanks, local fire department, for risking your lives to save my family. I don't pay taxes though, sucks for you.

On the other hand, I sometimes copy works which the copyright owner has indicated no desire to exploit in the present or foreseeable future. If we take the copyright owner's refusal to sell copies as an admission that the work's value is within epsilon of zero, my copying may be fair

Actually, I agree with this to a large extent: if I have no access to a work, it's pretty hard to buy it. And Slashdotters should all be familiar with Eldred and the fact that 98% of copyrighted works are commercially defunct.

This is why I never talk about legal vs. illegal when it comes to piracy, since copyright law itself has been roundly abused. As far as I'm concerned, this is strictly an ethical question.

--
Dum de dum.

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[yerricde]

Well at least GCN has some good exclusive games. Xbox has what? Halo and Munch's Oddysee? Could that be why Xbox isn't doing too well outside the States (globally, it's #4 behind #3 GCN, #2 PS2, and #1 GBA, and even the PS1 has been beating it in Japan)?

The Xbox is not beating the GameCube

[yerricde]

My point was that if the lowly xbox is beating it

No, Xbox is not beating the Cube everywhere. Outside the United States, the GameCube has a substantial edge over the EggsBox. Heck, in Japan, even the PSone has outsold Microsoft's console.

"Free games" that would make RMS proud

[yerricde]

If someone goes through the trouble of modchipping their console, then they're going to want a return on their investment in the form of free games.

"Free games"? I'd be happy with free as in speech, as has happened on the PS2 and on the Xbox. I play a lot of freely redistributable games on my GBA, and I've written a couple GPL'd GBA games of my own.

Image data *equals* disc data

[yerricde]

And the data in the .iso image is supposed to be iso (equal) to the data on the disc.

How to set up StepMania

[yerricde]

[Installing a DWI mix put together MP3.com bands] would require a lot more work and not be as user-friendly

1. download and run StepMania's installer
2. download and install song zipfiles from bemanisims.com
3. plug your dance pad into your favorite PS1->PC adapter
4. launch StepMania and configure controls
5. DANCE!

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll.

i have doubts

[dosh8er]

I'd like to see this fly, since there are some really kewl games out ther for the cube, w/ decent quality graphics. But, i wonder.. I found out that those sly engineers at Nintendo thought up a brilliant copy protection method. The Gamecube uses a Constant Linear Velocity read method, instead of the conventional Constant Angular Velocity. CAV is what CD's and such use, where the speed of the data disc is variable but the reading motion stays the same... whereas CLV keeps the speed of the spinning at a set rate, but the optic is variable in movement. (better explaination, here). So the speed of the disc would not effect the GC's copy to an ISO as much as the optic speed would... the possibilities seem endless here.

Re:i have doubts

[GaimeGuy]

The GC has TONS of anti-piracy protection. 1. Custom laser that can only read G.O.D.s 2. Custom media (G.O.D.) 3. System limited to only playing G.O.D.s 4. G.O.D.'s first layer of data is filled with garbage data. 5. G.O.D. is read outside-in 6. Barcode on the G.O.D. 7. Location of the BIOS Also, neither the GC nor the GC software has been hacked. The only thing that's been done is that a few G.O.D.s have been dumped onto a PC. That's all. And with no way to play the pirated files, the effort, money, and time of StarCube has been wasted.

Re: discussion... free speach...

[freeweed]

by posting it (esp. on the front page, which is how I got here), Slashdot is implicitly condoning this.

So Slashdot is condoning the RIAA suing college students? And SCO's behaviour? And the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre?

Interesting...

Re: discussion... free speach...

[evilviper]

by posting it (esp. on the front page, which is how I got here), Slashdot is implicitly condoning this.

So, by the news media broadcasting stories about murders, they are implicitly condoning murder? Give me a break!

A Challenge:

[EnglishTim]

If it truly is entirely acceptable, I challenge you to put incorrectly placed apostrophes on your CV...

Re:Sales show GC games sell more than on any syste

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the truth hurt your little brain and you're having trouble dealing with it? It's always funny when people try to label posts they don't like and/or can't come up with a counter-argument with as "troll". Do you even know what that word means? Perhaps you should go look it up because you've completely misused it.

Uh, guy, necessary, not sufficient.

[Anonymous Coward]

He said depriving the owner of the use of said property is necessary for theft. He didn't say it was sufficient for theft. No nonsense there, and he's correct.

Webster's:

"Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief."

All these characteristics are necessary.

Sssssh...

[AllenChristopher]

If a big enough asteroid hits California, everybody on Earth will die.

If you get them too hot, flags burn.

A black man has never been elected President of the Universe.

But, you know.... keep it under your hat, ok? We wouldn't want anyone to think we're for any of this.

Re:Seriously Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Right... Who modded this troll? (Translation: Lay off the crack)

It's a serious question, and I personally think it deserves asking and answering.