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Kerry Concedes Election To Bush
WilliamGeorge points to this MSNBC story "that presidential candidate John Kerry has called George W Bush to concede the election. So it is over, and without a lot of extra fuss and recounts."
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And let us move back to our normal bickering of Linux vs. BSD.
It's a sad sad day for 50% of America.
what a shame, kerry would of lead the country in a better direction. it is truly a shame we have to wait another 4 years for some improvement to happen to this country
So we saw this coming, I suppose, and while most of us do not like it, it is finished. This is a testament both to Kerry's character as well as America's democratic process. I wish the candidates the best of luck now that it is over, and I hope that America does not go to hell.
The last thing this nation needs is another drawn out court battle to decide the presidency. Kerry did the honorable thing considering his slim-none chances of pulling Ohio out.
Life will go on. It's a sad day for sure, but life will go on. We are all Americans, first and foremost.
-- jimmycarter
While I am no Bush supporter, I want to congratulate him on his victory. And I sincerely hope that he will take great steps to heal the wounds on this country inflicted by both the events of the past 4 years and a VERY bitter election.
ATTN: 51% of voters
RE: you being gormless, easily duped intellectual dungheaps
Just wanted to establish that whatever fucked-up shit comes down on all of our heads over the next four years...it's all your fault.
I am no longer blaming Bush or Cheney or Karl Rove or anybody else in the NeoCon coven. You can't blame them for being evil, hateful warmongering fuckshits any more than you can blame a gun for shooting bullets. But YOU ASSHOLES let them get away with it for four more years.
A tidal wave of blood coming down on us all from the next terrorist disaster? YOUR FAULT.
Military draft stealing away the lives of an entire generation of young Americans (and then some)? YOUR FAULT.
Perpetual wars in the Middle East making Orwellian nightmares seem like tinkertoys in the sandbox? YOUR FAULT.
A ruined economy and ecology, a Constitution left in tatters, a tyranny of wealthy white "Christians" who are anything but? YOUR FAULT.
The rest of the world abandoning us when we'll need it most (and don't say it won't happen)? YOUR FAULT.
Future decades upon future decades spent living down Bush's legacy and repairing the damage to the country and the world? YOUR FAULT.
Making this planet a less prosperous and peaceful place in which to raise my future child? YOUR FUCKING FAULT, YOU FUCKING FUCKING CUNTING FUCKS.
I hope you're quite pleased. I hope you enjoy the tax cuts and the military dick-waving and the surge of pride you must feel when Bush stands in front of a flag he has never for a moment of his life defended. I wish you all a free copy of "My Pet Goat" and a frosty flagon of the blood if Iraqui innocents. Drink fast, it gets warm so quickly.
Just remember, when you and I are both up against the wall, the last thing you'll see before we're both shot in the head is my finger raised in accusation against you. And it won't be my index finger.
Drop me if you want. Hate me if you want. I don't give a shit. Fuck all 'yall.
It's being widely reported by the AP, CNN, Fox News, CSPAN, ABC News, CBS News and others that John Kerry has already called Pres. Bush to concede defeat. Apparently he'll speak to the nation at 1:00 PM EST.
I personally am glad that Kerry has done this. My opinion of him has gone up and I am glad that he will not try to divide the country further by dragging us through a contested election. Mr. Kerry, thank you for that.
And congratulations to Pres. Bush.
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
I just hope for all of the American people that Dubya doesn't do anything that will make rest of the world hate you even more.
This is a sad day.
In the South and Midwest, I'm surrounded by them.
I'm glad not to be stuck with seeing Kerry on the news for four years, but I'd have liked to have at least one house in Congress controlled by the opposition. That way, we might be able to get a better check on spending for the next term.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
From the bottom of our collective hearts:
We're sorry.
I'm sure future historians will mark this day as the offical turning point of the fall and decline of the American empire. We had a good run; good luck to the next guy.
- Despite popular opinion, I am not perfect.
Have to give it to Kerry - he was honourable enough not to try to drag this out. As I hope Bush would have been if it had gone the other way.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Please, PLEASE GO! Don't hold back. Liberals LOVE threatening to leave when their horse finishes last, so DO IT and leave us to fail miserably in our "fascism" and "right-wing extremism".
It's not true, but if you believe it you must leave. Good bye and good riddance. I'm SO SICK of hearing people threatening to leave whether jokingly or not. It's damn immature and pig-headed.
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
wal-mart nation? surly you mean Born-again nation.
if you heard the Bush supporters calling up, they voted for him because of religion, no other reason.
so, now that Bush thinks God wants him to be president and he things God is telling him how to govern, we are in deep shit during his Legacy term.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Looks like Kerry took the high road and decided to avoid a long drawn out affair. New Mexico and Iowa don't mean anything at this point, with Ohio representing the presidency.
I've seen reports of anywhere from 100,000 to 250,000 provisional votes, plus absentee ballots, plus recounts where necessary, still all hanging in the balance. Its a slim chance, but Kerry could still possibly win it if he pressed ahead with a long, drawn out legal battle. I'm assuming that his concession is a statement that he will not lead the Democrats down that road for the good of the country.
Ohio still has the responsibility of counting those ballots, though.
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
Now maybe Bush can get around to doing some of the things that he thought might not get him re-elected during the first term...lets see. Iran, North Korea, ummm...who else? Also...anybody else see what oil prices are doing?
...want to welcome our new Republican legislative and executive overlords. I look forward to mandatory Sunday School for at least the next 2 years. My parents (Baptists) will be proud.
Seriously, though -- I was torn between Bush and Kerry this election, and I yearned for a viable third-party candidate with which to speak using my vote.
I'll be honest -- I voted for Bush, but I was ready to select some Democratic and Libertarian representatives in state government and Congress. To each his own, I say.
And I'm also ready to say "Thank you" to Kerry for being a semi-decent sport and not going nuts like Gore did in 2000. It's the first time I've felt some genuine respect for the man -- the fact that he conceded before lawyering up scores high marks in my mind. Perhaps a sign that, despite his political ambitions, he was willing to accept a less than desirable outcome early on and avoid having America trounced in legal hubbub for the next several weeks.
My 2 cents.
IronChefMorimoto
I think the voters made the right decision yesterday. It was a record turnout, more Americans went to the polls in this election than any election before, and they chose George W. Bush to lead them as their next president.
The reason the Democrats lost this election was that they nominated a complete idiot. Yes, let's face it, Kerry was not fit to be president -- he was a complete demagogue who told the people only what they wanted to hear, and refused to take a stand on anything. If someone like Howard Dean were nominated then I think we'd have a Democrat president right now. Yes, Dean is more liberal than most of America, but people can respect him because he's principled.
Anyway, I'm going to party like it's 1776, because a victory for Bush is a victory for America.
Terry McAulliff will almost have to be fired as head of the DNC.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
Yeah, because Big Business was really on the run during the Clinton years.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: The quicker we all figure out that both Democrats(Liberals) and Republicans(Conservatives) are both in it to fuck over the common man, the better off we'll all be.
...with all of the conspiracy theories, about how the country will self-destruct, the world as we know it will end...
Aren't people tired of predicting the end of the world? Call me crazy, but I think we'll still be around 4 years from now with another successful election taking place.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
One note from looking at the results is that it seems like in vrey few (if any) races were independant votes any kind of factor. I fear that third party candidate vote totals were lower than ever.
So the next time you feel compelled to vote for a major party, consider this - would a vate for Nader or Badnarik really have been wasted given that Kerry did not win anyway? If anyone really wanted to vote for a third party but instead voted for Kerry they essentially wasted thier vote twice over.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Liberty and Freedom
1776-2004
Nah. 1776-1932
Despite the alleged "split" in the country.... 1) There were no riots in the street. 2) All candidates who started the election process are still alive today. 3) No cities are on fire and there is no looting 4) We all witnessed a historical election which will set the tone for the next generation and we all traveled to work as if it was a normal day. This is the process that the founding fathers envisioned. In an election where more people voted than ever before we should stop and think what we have accomplished . It is great to be an American
I just want to know when the process became about picking the president the fastest, as opposed to hearing the "voice" of the people? Whatever that voice may be saying.
it is official, OHIO is a states of idiots. they were hit the hardest of any state with unemployment and many other problems and they ended up voting for bush because he is a "Moral" man...
oh that and the Democratic precincts had 1 voting machine per polling place.... yeah, that will help keep the Kerry supporters from being heard.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
In capitalist America, civil war signs up you.
Haha, I love it when you tell someone else they're immature AND pig-headed in the same sentence...
feh. stuff.
It's damn immature and pig-headed.
No, not at all. Personally, I don't want to live in a religious police state. I'm getting my financials ready and will be ready to go probably in the summer of 2005.
I don't respond to AC's.
Bush didn't win, Kerry lost.
Kerry was a TERRIBLE candidate. He took both sides of every issue. He would tell people whatever they wanted to hear. When people can't get a sense of where a candidate stands on anything, the incumbent wins. Really, it's as simple as that. I don't think many people were enthusiastic Bush supporters, but most people couldn't stomach voting for Kerry.
Instead of asking why the American people voted for Bush, ask yourself why the Democrats couldn't come up with a better candidate than Kerry.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
You mean like denying someone the right to marry simply because of their sex?
Or is it more like invading a country with the sole justification being they sort of look like those terrorist guys we keep hearing about?
Something that wasn't covered very well on the news was the number of Gay Marriage measures in different states.
Bush won the vote in many of those states because Christians showed up to vote to ban Gay Marriage.
Very clever on part of the Republican Strategists. It is doubtful that the "Evangellical Christians" would have voted if the anti-gay measures weren't on the ballot.
Evangellical Christians only show up when they can vote a fool into power or restrict personal liberties. I left my home town because of those fascists...
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
I'm not ashamed to be an American, but I'm embarassed for our country.
Its not even that Bush won.
Its that it is official: You can lie, mislead, and divide, and sucessfully win an election.
He's also the first president in many years (perhaps ever?) that won because he openly advocated limiting civil rights of an etnic group, and used it to divide the country.
When you saw people on CNN saying that their primary concern was "moral values", that was just code for "we REALLY don't like gay people."
It wasn't really in people's minds until he brought it forward and made it an issue.
"A vote for Kerry is a vote for buttsex in our schools!"
Christ.
It sickens me to think that people who never voted before said "Whoa, nothing else has mattered to me in the last 20 years, but the QUEERS WANT TO GET MARRIED! Jarlene, find me my votin' hat!"
There's lots of stuff to watch. None of it good, but lots of stuff to watch.
Is there anywhere we can publicly apologize to the rest of the world for our fellow Americans' foolish behavior? I'd sign a mass letter of apology to the world that would have voted Kerry into office with an enormous margin. The clock's ticking: how long until Iran is invaded, the environment completely trashed, our personal liberties destroyed, and our international relations damaged beyond repair?
Snazzier than a Three-Piece Suit: http://kf.rainydaycommunications.net/
Conservatives voted.
Seriously, Bush is the worst president in the last 50 years. This is widely accepted and discussed; it's not my simple-minded view. He does things that no one would tolerate in the person running the company they work for, let alone a powerful country, like completely ignoring all the facts presented to him and making calls based on unfounded instinct.
So how the hell did he get elected? A combination of:
1. People, especially people over 50, who blindly vote for "their" party candidate.
2. A bizarre, misguided group who regard Bush as having high morals. I'm as dumbfounded as anyone here, but just watch how often this comes up in analyses.
3. A similarly bizarre, misguided group who seem to think that Iraq was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and Bush is keeping them from attacking us again.
4. Voting for the status quo is safer than a new guy.
5. Nobody really liked Kerry all that much. The anti-Bush people latched onto him because he's all we had.
This is a good argument for changing how a president is elected. For a good read, see Peter Norvig's Hiring a President.
A sad day indeed.
I hope the rest of the world remembers that nearly half of the voters did not want Bush back in office. This was no affirmation that 'Americans' agree with Bush. This is proof of what strategic campaigning can do, and it is proof that our country is still rabidly divided.
Only if you want to stick around for four more years of this shit only to vote again with no effect.
-an Ohioan who voted Kerry and who is now looking to move north
Yeah but the Democrats will at least stay out of your business. Perverse enough as that sounds, it's true.
The Republican party has become the Theocratic party.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Americans who do not want Republican leadership need a better alternative, perhaps a new party, one that actually stands for something and has a platform that is not based solely on some inverse of the Republican platform. What was the Democrat platform? I still can't tell. Day One of a Kerry presidency would still see the US in Iraq and in debt and in hock to corporations with no change on the horizon.
I am disappointed that the younger crowd (18-25 age group), who bitched the loudest, ended up with the piss poor voting record as usual. I'm also disappointed that Kerry was foolish enough to court that group of voters while Bush was busy courting older voters which proven record of voting and won.
So if any of you out there (of legal voting age) who bitched but didn't vote, please stop bitching, as some other foolish candidate in the future may end up running supporting your cause thinking that you may actually vote.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Although I think that Kerry wouldn't have made a bad president, I do think that keeping Bush in office will be more effective in the long run. I'm assuming that his administration has long term plans that need to be pushed through the next for years to be fully effective.
./'ers lean a bit to the left, and may be disappointed by the results, but keep in mind that the real change in this country beings with each individual whos convictions drive them to make this country better by getting involved in their local communities.
I realize that
God Bless America!
...the country will be ready to stand for the things that made it great. Maybe if the gap between rich and poor keeps expanding, the national deficit balloons even higher, the average wage drops even lower, the trade deficit continues to soar, the air and water go to shit, civil rights are further eroded in the name of 'safety', enough troops die for weapons that don't exist and fake ties to terrorism... maybe then this country will open its eyes and make a change.
Until then, just keep standing on your stump yelling 'Terrorism! Terrorism! Terrorim! Patriot! Patriot! Patriot!' and 51% of America will really believe you're a patriot fighting terrorism. This day is sad.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
Good heavens. Surely not... you don't mean... it can't be...
Yes, folks, a growing population plus a record turnout means a large number of votes. Colour me stunned.
Seriously, the youth vote was just as bad this year as it was four years ago..... What do we have to do make it a video game to make you stupid fucks vote? Your lives and the direction the country your going to be in charge of one day doesnt mean jack to you? Im sorry but they should just take away voting for 18 year olds and bring it back to 21 year olds.... if you guys cant use your right to vote, you shouldnt have it.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
The situation for Americans wanting a real choice is becoming more bleak with each election. We need new parties.
electronic voting
Legally, what are the implications of the concession?
What if the vote counting is finished, and Kerry comes out ahead in Electoral votes? Is the concession a legally binding surrender, or what? Could the debate be resumed in the courts at a later time?
http://thechubbyferret.net - Ferret pictures and informative links.
Um, it's a bit different to whine and say you're leaving a country because you didn't get your way compared with pointing out how stupid that is.
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
Are you sure you want to be a victim of America's foreign policy?
Tell that to the marines.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
WOW - what a difference a day makes. Yesterday was how un-American it would be to vote for Bush and how he divides the country and now with Bush winning, it's "America is going to HELL" and "I'm moving to Canada." Who is really dividing America? I understand having passion for your beliefs, but now it is time to join together!!! America is great because of its individuals and its morals.
Please, PLEASE GO! Don't hold back. Liberals LOVE threatening to leave when their horse finishes last
I still don't get why liberal means pussy, yet conservative doesn't mean poorly educated white trash. Who writes these damn definitions? Besides, any good liberal should stick around to give GW a deadlocked congress. That means no more former oil and logging executives in charge of environmental protection, no more reducing pollution regulations and calling it a reduction in pollution, and generally all the other ass backwards slides America has taken. Vote for congress, povided y'all live that long.
So that battle between socialism (nationwide health care, expanded government welfare, progressive income taxes) and facism (patriot act, patriot act II?) will be faught again another day. Each side doing what's "best for america", meanwhile eroding our liberties away.
:)
And somewhere... my man michael badnarik is crying
T'is a sad day for me indeed. Support instant runoff voting! This 2 party crap has got to go.
alright, now flame away. But I had to get that off my chest.
my last sig was too controversial... now, a new and improved useless sig!
and that, my friend, is why I voted Badnarik.
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
If we legislate anything it should be based on science, not superstition, dogma, and a hatred for what's different.
To me, that's moral.
It's not the exit polls that they're using. Both candidates need less than 20 electoral votes to win. Ohio has 20. Bush is going to win Ohio, it's a near mathmatical certainty based on the COUNTED BALLOTS. Bush wins the election.
Additionally, Bush has a SIGNIFICANT edge in the popular vote.
Democracy doesn't mean the best man wins, it just means the majority is responsible for who they pick.
paintball
I'm lacking the conviction to send my friends over there to die for a lie. Do you also know the number of civilians that died in Iraq because we thought it in their best interest to free them (think orders of magnitude above our own casualties)? It's good we freed them...from this world.
I grew up in a Republican dominant environment and had to seek
sanity on my own. The problem is, I haven't found that with the Democratic
party. Don't get me wrong. I voted D all the way yesterday, but not because
I love the party. And that's part of the problem. It's become the
anti-party.
That's not to claim that I am exactly typical and representative of the how's
and why's of voter behavior. It's the overall issue, however, of where we
are now politically. We have a fascist regime holding power through fear of
other while carefully ensuring the masses never see the knife as it reaches
around for their throats. We have an opposition party which fails to
communicate this reality. Edward's had a good idea with the sunshine and
smiles, but lacked a strong message and projected an almost childlike image.
Kerry, as so many recognized from day 1, was just too dour and lacked the
passion needed to push a message clear of the chaff.
Somehow between now and 2008 the Democratic party has to become a whole lot
more than just an opposition party. It's got to become a party passionate
about truth, feedom, and life. There are ways to break through this morality
battle currently running across the country, but they require boldness,
confidence, passion, and strength. States issues must be kept off the
national stage. America's self-image of independence and strength relative
to the rest of the world must be nurtured while restrained. Most
importantly, they must clearly, honestly, and unarrogantly communicate to the
working people of the South and Midwest why their lives are harder because of
the policies of the RNC and it's elected politicians.
The only way we're going to get out of this death spiral is if the liberal
elite of the coasts comes to terms with the reality of the social perspective
of the south and midwest. We can't secede. We can't repopulate all those
states as we have in New Hampshire. We have got to recognize the fact that
the only way to end this is to accept the perspectives of our fellow
citizens, identify the common ground between us (it *is* there), and build a
party based on that. A party based on traditional American values of
freedom, caring, hard work, and so many other moralistic qualities of
American life which the Republican message simply doesn't and can't address.
There is tremendous opportunity for the Democratic party to reach out to
Southern voters if they would just come off the high horse and understand
what they want and then passionately deliver the message.
The Democratic party once again gave this election away by delivering a
message percieved as weak. I agree. It was weak. The most impressive part
of their campaign was the ability to deliver such a flat, dispassionate,
unarousing message in the midst of so much turmoil. Maybe it was Kerry's
delivery. Surely that was part of it. I see it as an issue across the
entire party. I see it only resolved by growing to understand what's really
behind the loss of Southern Dems. It's about emotions and egos. It's about
projecting an image of strength and confidence. It's about not thinking
those are dirty words.
THIS is good. I agree with you Liberals should stay and fight. We need balance and, although I lean Libertarian, I believe in everyone fighting for what they believe in. Leaving is NO solution--it's emotionally-charged nonsense.
On the other hand, I don't recall hearing conservatives threatening to leave during Clintons' terms. Yes, they whined and complained profusely, but they dug in and fought.
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
Funny how that works, isn't it?
Can someone tell me where I can sign-up for the upcoming Civil War?
That was it, last night. Every election is a bloodless civil war.
In all seriousness, continued attempts to start a bloddy one one are going to be met with overwhelming hostility. The solution to losing an election is not to start a war, and anybody who truly acts like it is shouldn't be moving to Canada, they should be moving to central Africa or something where that sort of barbaric behavior really is the expected result.
I'm not a "love it or leave it" person; I'm a "love it, leave it, work within the system to change it, or shut the hell up" person. But if you really think this is worth killing people because an election didn't go your way, then I offer you two other choices: Shut the hell up about "civil war" and grow up, or yes, get the hell out.
Good lord. You can demonize conservatives as much as you want, but when Clinton won, nobody talked about civil war.
Grow up, kiddies. You lose sometimes. Now is a chance to rebuild and refocus. Start a war and I'll be first in line to stop you with all necessary force.
The reason we lost is because we have not justified and defined a real leftist agenda. The Rightwing, on the other hand, has spent 30 years or more defining and justifying the RIghtwing agenda. We all "know" that low taxes are good for "The Economy" and we all "know" that productivity should be ever high and we all "know" that low labor costs are good and we all "know" that welfare states are bad and we all "know" that government managed healthcare is a disaster, etc etc etc. And why do we "know" all these things? Because the rightwing propaganda machine has been pushing them down our throats via the teevee, radio and newspapers for the last 30 years.
THe rightwing propaganda machine starts with nonprofit foundations and think tanks that pay for studies and write articles based on those studies. Of course, because there is no criminal penalty for cooked, bogus studies, and no money to check these studies and news articles that are based on these studies, the rightwing propaganda machine is able to dominate the media agenda. THey have the money. THey are funded into the billions by billionaires and global corporations.
THe news articles based on these studies are propagated to media outlets (tv radio papers) where they reach the public.
The rightwing propaganda machine also does many other things, such as fund up and coming rightwing media talent, e.g., giving grants to promising rightwing radio talk show hosts, authors and reporters, consultants etc.
Also, because the rightwing propaganda machine has so much money to give, most high profile media figures, reporters, etc, know that after they quit working at their current job with the networks, newspaper, etc, if they are ideologically "suitable, they can get lots of fat consultancy gigs with the rightwing propaganda machine, as long as they do not piss them off.
So the rightwing propaganda machine is like a huge planet in a solar system, or maybe even like the sun itself.
If liberals want to change America, they need to fund a LEFTwing propaganda machine. It costs money. Unfortunately, the entities with the money want to keep their money. So they are not about to fund a LEFTwing propaganda machine. So it is up to us.
Once we do get a a LEFTwing propaganda machine, we need to make sure it pushes OUR agenda, and it needs to get down to the nitty gritty of the issues. We need to make the case to the American people that high taxation is where it is at. And it really is. All we have to do is show people that high tax welfare states are a great place to live. Look at countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, France, etc. Do you see a lot of citizens coming over here from there to live permanently? No! Yes, some of them (the cream of the crop) came over here doing the IT boom to make more money, but they know they have a good deal there.
We need to make the case that America is a partnership and we are getting ripped off by the richest Americans.
Crank up a LEFTwing propaganda machine. Start generating facts and figures. Start with healthcare. Show Americans exactly what is going on with nationalized universal healthcare in places like Canada, Sweden, Denmark, France etc.
Show how West Europe and their unions and restricted trade benefits the people. Hell, in Sweden it is quite difficult to expand a business. But there are reasons for that. Show Ameiricans that having corporations get their fingers into every pie disempowers the average person.
Teach America the game theory of politics.
To change America, we need to define our issues and an agenda. The problem is that we have simply moved along to the right with the GOP, keeping ever so slightly to the left of the GOP. No wonder white suburban and rural middle class Americans do not trust the Democrats. They seem to simply see the Left as a tool of the minorities for ripping them off for the welfare checks of the urban minorities.
But to do all this we need a LEFTwing propaganda machine. But we have to pay for it.
----All about Leftism
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Are you trying to be funny? Or is this just another case of "stupid uninformed american, opens mouth, half truths and bullshit spews forth".
The line is
"I stand on GUARD for thee"
Close.
If I was God, I'd be like "Hey, stupid Americans, quit quoting me, and holding me up as your guiding light, if you stood before me in judgement, I would send you all to burn. You are being ruled by a man, who claims to have spoken with me. Trust me, if I was going to speak to someone, it would at least be someone who would be able to hold an intelligent, and meaninful conversation. Do you really think I would break eons of silence, to speak with Bush! Please. Who would believe him anyways, don't you think I would pick someone with enough credibility to at least have a half a chance of having someone believe him? I mean, every time Bush opens his mouth, he is lying about something."
Oh SHIT!
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
you're not any safer.
your deficit isn't any lower.
you're not creating new jobs.
your government isn't any smaller than before.
and you'll probably never _elect_ anyone ever again.
...vividly encapsulates that post-Watergate/pre-punk/coked-up moment when you could trust no one, least of all yourself.
If lunar colonization were the result of the people of the world fleeing the second W. presidential term, it might be worth it.
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
No way this is funny...
Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
One good thing for the coutry as a whole is that the popular vote matched up with who won - that should help eliminate a whole category of people proclaiming the winner was not really the winner and make the results less embittering to some.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not to pick on you, particularly, because I know you are joking, but that is exactly the wrong attitude. Stick with America. If the people who have cared about our democracy in the past become so frustrated that they remove themselves from the process (geographically or mentally), there will be _no_ way for the entirety of american values and ideals to be represented. My number one fear right now is that the democrats, greens, libertarians, etc just surrender now, because I don't think America and the democratic process can survive without the attention of all well meaning Americans right now. Democracy isn't just about majority rule-- it is about reaching a compromise that maxmizes societal welfare.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
.. from the US.
Honestly..
> You got Bush, in democratic elections
Yes, we got Bush in democratic elections. I have no problem with that. He got more votes than Kerry. I DO have a problem with being in a country where that would happen. The lunacy of living in a country where slightly more than half the population believes a complete idiot bent on making America the next Empire is fit to run things. I thank God that I am over the age of the coming draft, and that I've already done my service (8 years, Force Recon... yes, I've killed (many) random strangers so we can enjoy the "freedom" we have). I'm scared for the youth of this nation.
So was Walden O'Dell, the diebold CEO, successful in his boast of carrying Ohio for bush?
t m /conspiracy mode off
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.h
Steven V>
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
- Calculate your share of the National Deficit
Yes. Thank you, Congress. Thank you, pork-barrel spending.
- Take up assault weapon collecting as a hobby
As you could have done under Clinton as well. (What, did you think that "assault weapon ban" actually banned all assault rifles?)
- Figure out how to best invest your $300 annual Bush tax savings to cover the social security benefits you'll never get
Vs. paying even more to the government and still not getting any social security benefits. (I'd like to be able to put some of mine away in private funds, thank you, call me crazy.)
- Become rich, then get all your income from mostly untaxed dividends and capital gains income
Yes, please, "become rich." We know that is an easy thing that just magically happens to people. They don't work hard, educate themselves, nor rely on their skills to make this happen. They are just "lucky," and deserve to be taxed even heavier than they are already!
- Join the guard and train for a one year tour of duty in Iraq
It sucks royally, but that is a risk of joining the guard. Do you think Kerry would have pulled us out of Iraq? At least Bush had the sense to start redistributing troops from cold-war nations. (Personally, I'd pull all troops out of nations not currently in war.)
- Move so that the selective service can't find you
Our voluntary military is growing faster than ever, and we are redeploying troops wasted in cold war nations, why would we need to draft?
- Take some gay people and a girlfriend (work with me here) to Vegas. Taunt them by getting married and divorced inside of 12 hours.
Agreed.
- Make a sign saying "The Government should stay out of our lives!" and go protest in front of an abortion clinic.
Make an alternate sign that says, "The government should stay out of our lives!" and go protest in front of a welfare office, social security distribution center, IRS office, etc.
- Pick up bow and arrow making to capitalize on the new corporate tax incentives
I'd prefer to rally for the abolishment of the IRS, all income taxes, and the institution of FairTax.
- Do something illegal, get arrested, and excercise your right to trial before 4 years of Bush-appointed, Republican confirmed Supreme Court appointees uphold the Patriot Act's elimination of right to trial.
Agreed.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
I can accept that Bush won the election. What I have a hard time swallowing is that I live in a country where more than half the population is willfully ignorant, politically obstinate, religiously prejudiced, and embarrassingly gullible.
Perhaps New England and Quebec could each secede, and merge. All I know is that I want nothing -- nothing -- to do with any of the red states.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
So, now we have a President / Commander in Chief during wartime. He has a Republican House and Senate and does not have to worry about pleasing the American people because he cannot run again.
If I were George W Bush I would activate ALL military reservists, enact the draft, and send mass troops to Iraq to disarm their entire nation and impose martial law. Oh, and by the way build the Marine base right over there. Set the price of oil about $5 a barrel and start loading up the tankers.
I doubt he will be SO harsh, there is a reason I am not a presidential candidate. But, I wouldn't be surprised if the gloves come off and he actually wields the force required to conquer Iraq.
God bless America!
Nick Powers
http://www.nickpowers.info/
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
While I find him unbelieveably deplorable, you've got to hand it to Karl Rove and the Bush campaign.
I thought there was no way that this country would re-elect a president who had the worst attack on this country ever happen on his watch, presided over a terrible economy, mismanaged a war that was waged for questionable reasons to begin with and was soundly defeated in three consecutive debates with his opponent.
I think the answer was, make this election about God. Take the extremely divisive social issues in this country (stem cell research, abortion, gay rights) and make the election about them rather than the economy. While outwardly, the Bush campaign was all about the War on Terror, I think he owes his victory to the social issues. He's made no secret about his faith, and while that is somewhat noble, it also overshadowed his record for lots of people.
Coming out of mass two Sundays ago, I found an Ohio Right to Life flyer in my windshield telling me how Bush fairs on four "Pro-Life" issues compared to Kerry. While abortion issues were the top two, the third was "Faith Based Initiatives" and the fourth was a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. While neither of these are pro-life issues, they were included on a Right to Life flyer, while another true pro-life issue, the death penalty (not to mention just and unjust wars) was conspicuously absent.
If there is one thing this election has proven, it is that Americans no longer desire a separation of church and state. And that frightens me more as a Catholic.
I don't think a candidate for re-election would've stood a chance in committing what are, I'm starting to think, necessary atrocities. I'm thinking the war we've seen in iraq (thus far) has been nothing more than groundwork for a larger and startlingly brilliant campaign.
For a moment, let's say that's all wrong and this isn't "the plan." Things get worse rather than better, and there will be no arguments in 2008 of "Well if he'd had 4 more years."
Let's say someone else had won, kerry or not, and now has the job of cleaning up. Let's say the guy needs more than 4 years to perform all the repair to our international credibility, relationships, etc. How does that person get re-elected?
This decision may end up causing more damage to america and the nations in the middle-east, but I wonder if it's not better to allow the process to finish before trying to roll it back (or, in the case of a real victory over terrorism) building fresh in new places.
Maybe I'm feeding a troll, maybe I should've posted anonymously, but I don't think it's worth the loss of political currency, right now, to be blamed for what will be a failed cleanup after W's presidency.
One last note. George W. Bush didn't outwit anyone. His campaign manager did, perhaps, or Kerry has defeated himself.
::jafomatic
Let's all us Americans out here ask the question, "are these guys really the best we have to offer?" I don't think so. I think it is a shame that it takes 100's of millions to run for President. What are the actual chances that someone who really does care will ever get out in front of the american people? zero.
I realize that when you boil it down, this is what the founding fathers actually intended. I am not sure they could have imagined the skewed disparity between the "have" and "have nots" that we have in our country today.
I think it sucks that we are forced to vote based on defense and military action but that is the world we live in. All non-americans seem to think that we want to be shipping our military around the world. The US has such potential to do great things for everyone, it is just depressing we have to focus on defending ourselves.
I would have gladly voted for the Democratic candidate if I could have seen someone other than a wife trying to get her husband something he wanted. Bush himself is not the greatest President or candidate.
Bottom line, you have to have money to even THINK about being president. In the case of this year, it's just a lesser of two evils vote. Unfortunately, I voted based on whether the man could do whatever was necessary in case something terrible would happen and just didn't think JK could have done it.
-----
That's what fucking scares and alienates me in my own country. Tolerance in U.S.? Fuck no. From Canadian news One-fourth of Ohio voters identified themselves as born-again Christians and they backed Bush by a 3-to-1 margin....Bush was favoured among ...evangelical Christians who view him as a messenger from God in a titanic fight to quell terrorism and spread liberty around the world...
Why is it that America and the fucked Middle East are the fundamentalists and problem-causers, while the rest of the world has gotten over it? The middle ages are over, fellow Americans. Figure it out. (ps. my viewpoint: I'm 2nd-generation Turkish American, committed atheist: after seeing what fundamentalists (muslim and christian) are doing to both of my otherwise lovely countries.
Doesn't it make you sad that in one state (can't remember which) only 17% of the votes actually counted? That's downright pathetic!
As a Canadian, I have to admit that I'm not entirely pleased with the outcome of this election either. I don't think Kerry would have made a spectacular leader by any means. I do think he could have reversed some (not all, by any means) of the damage done in the last 4 years...That and any monkey couldn't be worse than Bush...
Having one of the dumbest men to ever lead a country be _re-elected_ should scare the rest of the world. Sleep tight, don't let the WMD bite!
-Ben
Granted, it might alienate some people, but while I would have liked Kerry to win, I am happy he conceded - just because I think it would have been wrong to have Kerry win the presidency with a minority in the popular vote - yes, Bush ruled with a minority, but two wrongs don't make a right.
For me, as a foreigner living outside the US, this will simply mean, that I'll stay out of the US for at least another legislative period - as long as those paranoid suckers are in office, I wouldn't even want to enter the US as a tourist.
The only thing I am concerned about right now, is what the new cabinet will look like. If Colin Powell really drops out of the cabinet (and isn't replaced by someone with an equal amount of internationally accepted integrity), the government will lose a lot of its standing to the outside world. I'd give more about what he said, than all the crap that Bush, Rice and especially Rumsfeld "emitted"...
How is the USA becoming a "religious police state"?
Well, the country IS run by a "Born Again Christian", and he has vowed to attack abortion rights, gay marriage, and continue to slaughter other random countries without the consent of the rest of the world, and the feds can monitor the books that we buy and checkout from libraries.
I don't respond to AC's.
I still don't get why liberal means pussy, yet conservative doesn't mean poorly educated white trash.
Well, if you look at demographics it seems Bush did better with people that earn 50,000+, and Kerry did better with people that earn less...
So how does your assumption hold true?
If the Democrats continue to ignore demographics and instead fundamentially believe misconceptions like the one you put forth then they will keep loosing.
Instead they should try and think about what led so many middle class, non white-trash people to vote for Bush and try to put forth a candidate that those people would vate to vote for, instead of a simple Anti-Bush.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Uh, hello. How was this modded anything but the flamebait expletive-laced troll that it is? A bunch of pissed off moderators today, maybe?
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
One thing the rest of the world has to come to terms with is that roughly half the voters in the US have just expressed their approval of what George Bush has done. They approve of invading another country on false pretenses. They approve of killing civilians by the tens of thousands. They approve of putting religion into government (and probably don't approve of whatever religion you may follow). They approve of putting companies like Haliburton in charge of projects in your country through no-bid contracts and no voice for your citizens. They don't care whether your countrymen may have done anything at all against the US; they'll still approve attacking you just because of what you might be capable of doing sometime in the iindefinite future.
I'll bet that there is a lot of discussion of such things going on in the rest of the world. It'll be interesting to see what the rest of the world can do to defend themselves.
The one good sign is that I've already heard and read a number of comments from the rest of the world pointing out that roughly half the US voters were opposed to all of the above. It's fairly clear that most of the Kerry votes weren't really for Kerry; they were votes to get Bush and his policies out of power. Many people in the rest of the world understand this and that the US isn't a monolith supporting whatever Bush does.
But still, the rest of the world has gotta be considering how to deal with a George Bush who now thinks he has a "mandate" for his policies. It's time to start looking for information about what people around the world are going to do about it.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
No, conservatives did not vote. It was the far right-wing, hyper-religious, I-hate-anything-not-christian, anti-equal-rights, creationism-is-a-theory, neo-cons who voted.
Please stop trying to claim that the above people are conservatives. They are not. They are the American version of the Taliban.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Actually, the U.S.A. isn't a democracy. It's a Federalist Republic. The popular vote was never intended to elect the President. In fact, the framers of the Constitution designed it such that the popular vote wouldn't elect the President. We are a representative democracy where what we're actually voting for on Nov. 2 is memebers of the Electoral College who will, in theory, vote for the candidate that we put down on our ballots. Technically they are not bound to vote either way, but that's just the way the system has developed.
;-)
Those crazy guys back in the day didn't trust in the transient will of the populous or "tyranny of the majority." Do you?
-------------------------------------------
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-- Dr. Seuss
I've got several military sources, that will go unidentified, whom I attend college with. If you don't think a draft is coming, think again. Look for a draft in March-May of 2005. Here is the latest ruleset for us college students. http://www.sss.gov/viet.htm "Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the academic year."
Help me, help you. - Jerry McGuire
Hold up now. The statement that 49% of Americans who voted hate W is a bit much.
Or is it?
Me, I voted Democrat in '92, '96 and '00. But the fucking virulent hate without much rational thought or reason is why I voted Republican this year.
I couldn't take the nonsense...the hate that was coming from some Liberals.
Yesterday we had a conversation in a meeting and someone admitted to voting Bush, a lady went off, yelling Someone looked over in horror and yelled "how could you? He has raped and murdered millions in Iraq!"
I said, "George W. Bush personally has raped and murdered people in Iraq?"
"Yes he has!"
"Personally? Like he went over and raped and murdered people?"
"Yes he has! Millions!"
Back to the word "hate", do you really think that every single person who voted for Kerry "hate" George W. Bush? I doubt it.
"Hate is the generic word, and implies that one is inflamed with extreme dislike. We abhor what is deeply repugnant to our sensibilities or feelings. We detest what contradicts so utterly our principles and moral sentiments that we feel bound to lift up our voice against it. What we abominate does equal violence to our moral and religious sentiments. What we loathe is offensive to our own nature, and excites unmingled disgust."
We bail you European & British Empire folks out of wars constantly. Than when we are fucking attacked you guys do this
Stop playing with your GI-joes little boy, that war has been over for 60 years and believe you me you are NOT your grandfather.
The people that liberate europe (not just US soldiers you arrogant little shit) are still venerated but united states credit has been running out steadily for years and Bush will spend the rest.
The conservative segment of America is the one leading for the war, defense of American ideals, and so on. The irony, most of the conservatives tend to personally agree with the Muslim stances on homosexuality, banking, sexual licentiousness, etc. (The degenerate culture we export around the world that is the number one reason Osama attacked.) And the irony, is we are defending the rights of people like you to have the freedom to be things we do not believe in.
Maybe we should let the extremists come to power...
Ow but you have let the extremists come to power. I can recognize them from far away no matter what flag they are wearing, Bush is no defender of any kind of freedom anywhere.
We're defending your asses...and you're to pompous and full of yourselves to realize it.
No, you're screwing with our asses and we'd love for you to stop doing it.
What a rotten party, have we run out of beer or something?
I agree with everything you have in the parent except for your last sentence. Democracy is exactly about majority rule; what you have described (reaching a compromise that maximizes societal welfare) is a Republic, which the United States is supposed to be according to our Constitution.
We bail you European & British Empire folks out of wars constantly. Than when we are fucking attacked you guys do this. .. Lie to the people, extort and control the people, wage private war FOR the people.
.. perfect sheep... continue believing blind, like religion, because it will all end up the way you want. poor poor sheep.
.. you actually believe this.
** nice of you to sit back and wait until it was in your best interests to help tho.
Do you really think you guys are free of this? We're the target cause we're prominent. If we don't stand strong. Guess what...for all your support of liberal ideas and thoughts, homosexual marriage, etc. It will be moot.
** You're the target because of your ultra agressive foreign policy. Not to mention you back a state that is DIRECTLY in conflict with Muslim interests. THEN DONT EXPECT THAT CONFLICT TO COME TO YOUR DOORSTEP?!
You want us to not defend ourselves or the right to be. Guess what...if we don't. It will be extremist fanatics killing every gay in Canada in the name of Allah. Destroying every bank, savings and loans. Forcing your women to wear excessive garments.
** You honestly think that if the Natzi like regime falls out of power that a MUSLIM govt will be put in place? Holy fuck, you are a sheep.
Man you don't get it...but you euro-minded people never have. Would you like to give Austria and Poland to NAZI Germany now or later?
*** Well, Nazi Germany exists today! IN AMERICA!!! YEE HAW
You in your dismal lack of understanding think this is a pride USA #1 issue. The irony is this....
The conservative segment of America is the one leading for the war, defense of American ideals, and so on. The irony, most of the conservatives tend to personally agree with the Muslim stances on homosexuality, banking, sexual licentiousness, etc. (The degenerate culture we export around the world that is the number one reason Osama attacked.) And the irony, is we are defending the rights of people like you to have the freedom to be things we do not believe in.
** the actual funny part is you BELIEVE what you are told
Maybe we should let the extremists come to power...
Let me ask you this...what do you think would happen? who do you think would be the ones allowed to live? moral conservatives....or the supporters of homosexuality and non-traditional morals?
**Personally I dont think that North America would ever be "taken over" by muslim warriors. This is how the FEAR has taken you
We're defending your asses...and you're to pompous and full of yourselves to realize it.
**YOU ARE DEFENDING YOUR FUCKING MONITARY INTERESTS SO DONT FUCKING PLAY THE BRAVE SOLDIER TO ME YOU FUCKING SHEEP! THE ONLY REASON YOU HAVE THE POWER TO DEFEND YOURSELVES IS BECAUSE OF YOUR BACKWARDS PROTECT OUR OWN GREEDY INSTERESTS VIEW OF MORAL SOCIETY. IF YOU EVER REALLY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A BROTHER TO ANOTHER WORDLY BODY YOU WOULDNT BE SUCH A FUCKING CLOSED MINDED SHEEP AND ACTUALLY PARTICIPATE IN WORLD ISSUES, INSTEAD OF STEPPING IN AND TAKING OVER.
SIEGE HAIL BUSH
I really do know KungFu
My advice to the Democrats:
Let the Republicans do whatever they want. Don't fight them on any issue. Let them pass any legislation they want, appoint any judges they want, spend any money they want, cut any taxes they want. Let them have free reign of the government. They want a chance to prove their system works? Give it to them. In fact, whenever they ask you to support them on an issue, go willingly, go gladly and give them everything they want.
In 4, 8 or 12 years, let's see how things turn out. If it's really that bad, then the Democrats will easily be able to regain control of everything. If things are going well, then we'll know for certain that the conservative agenda works and we will have a clear mandate for the future.
It's time for the democrats to fall back and watch for a while. It may be a lot to suffer, but I think it's the only way for us to get past the divisiveness. If the Democrats continue to fight the Republicans, they will continue to get blamed for the lack of progress in this country and continue to be labeled as whiners and obstructionists. By not making challenges, then they can't be blamed for mistakes, and if there are costly mistakes, it will be easy to turn the country in a different direction and start again. For the liberal America, this is your trial by fire.
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
The funny thing about all these people who are threatening to move abroad is that they probably won't be given visas! Relocating to different parts of the US is relatively easy. Perhaps this is what makes it deceptive. Crossing borders is much much harder - I can hardly see the US signing up to mobility concepts like those that exist within the EU.
"Education" is the word for what you think must be done. And I'll agree, there seems to be an awful lack of it.
The results of this election reveal that most Americans still understand the truth about the state of the world today, despite what the mass media would like them to think. If the remainder of the populace (i.e. the Democrats) would stop and think about the reality of the situation, then all of the hysterical reactions to the outcome of this election could come to a stop.
Most Americans see the truth about the "War On Terror": coalition forces gave al-Qaeda the thrashing of their lives in Afghanistan -- and in only about 30 days, not the 10 year protracted USSR-style Afghanistan fiasco that some had predicted. Al-Qaeda still remains severely crippled from this shellacking in 2001.
Most Americans see the truth about the situation in Iraq: coalition forces continue to be overwhelmingly successful and are achieving their objectives at a steady pace, with unprecedentedly low casualties. To have achieved such a high level of success, with casualties in the low 1,000's is simply amazing. The truth is that in 2003 no one, not Republican or Democrat, could have hoped for such a positive outcome.
Most Americans see the truth about the economy at home: unemployment is now lower than it ever was under the Clinton administration. Homeownership is now at an all-time high. The country has now seen a net gain in jobs. The previous recession and loss of jobs began under the Clinton administration, not under the Bush administration. The Bush administration's economic policies successfully reversed the economic slide that the Clinton administration left behind, despite the difficulties imposed by the 9/11 attacks. This too is unprecedted and something for all Americans to be proud of.
I don't understand the media's motivation for attempting to decieve the American population with regard to these three major issues, but it is refreshing to see that the majority of American's are not buying into it.
The Republicans are doing a commendable job steering this country down the right path, and, with the outcome of this election, it is now apparent that most Americans recognize this fact. As soon as Iraq is set completely free and begins to rebuild and prosper, the rest of the world will see just how wrong they were about the Bush Administration.
God bless America!
Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
They believe in what they're doing over there. Why don't you?
Because, as a citizen, it is my job to reason why.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Congrats, Bush supporters. You side won, and won relatively definitively compared with 2000. You also picked up some house seats and a Senate seat (two if you count Zell Miller as a Dem). It's your day, and despite my personal views I honestly hope that the US electorate made the right decision.
To my fellow dems, well, here we are. Take a couple of days to lick your wounds and feel shitty -- it's always tough to lose, especially when it's a close one. But no matter what, and especially no matter how much crap you take in the next couple of days, don't lose faith. There are two things I've learned about politics: (a) there's always another election and (b) things are never as bad as they seem.
In retrospect, I believe it was to our detriment that we didn't lose the popular vote in 2000 because it gave us and excuse to not stop, admit defeat and regroup -- instead, we figured we could just steamroll to the next election and win. Well, now we know better.
Back in 1992, the GOP suffered the same sort of defeat we're facing now (actually, a worse defeat). They did the right thing with it, though, and in '94 they came back and were able to be highly successful by presenting a new look and new promise.
I know. I was a Republican back then. I was at a victory party for a GOP house member named Scott Klug whose campaign I'd worked on when the wind shifted. You could *feel* it happening -- it was the dawn of a new day for a party that had strayed away from its roots during Bush I.
Well folks, this is our 1992. Even now, the GOP is drifting away from its core ideas of fiscal responsibility and keeping its nose out of people's business. It's our opportunity to retake the soul of our party and demand a new look and better people, and they're out there right now -- Russ Feingold in Wisconsin, Barak Obama in Illinois and dozens of other good Americans around the country ready to be the new face of our party. It'll happen, but it can't happen without our determination and our hard work.
I won't give up, and neither should you. At the risk of sounding cheesy, we'll pull this off for the same reason the GOP did a decade ago because of a fundemental commonality we share with them: We're Americans. We don't give up, we don't quit, we don't go quietly.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I agree.
This was a vote about identity. The Republican party has been steadily convincing Christians that they are the party of Christ. It started with conservative brimstone and fire evangelicals and was dismissed by liberals as finge politics. Unfortunately, this sentiment has spread steadily until it encompasses not just the religious right, so much as the plain religious. Republicans have framed the argument as choosing between Democrats and God. Dems cannot win that fight.
Democrats have failed utterly, as candidates, to stand up and show believers how true Christians have more in common with Democratic values than Republican supply-siders. The only person I've heard harp on this is Al Franken, who is not exactly a voice evangelicals are going to trust.
Democrats need to show those with faith that the values of Jesus are the values of the Democrats. This will mean downplaying things like gay rights and abortion.
We have to find a way to dumb ourselves down into simple ideology. Easy digestible soundbites. It sounds ridiculous but I see no other way -- 1992 was "The Economy, Stupid", nothing else has worked. People don't want to think about problems, they want to eat McD's and watch Joey.
And the Republicans hope you keep thinking this way, because it shows that you really don't understand why John Kerry lost this election.
You are so fixated on the presidential race that you are losing track of the fact that Republicans made significant gains in the Senate and House of Representatives as well. Tom Daschle lost. He was targeted, and his constituents booted him out. That's his reward for 4 years of obstructionism. Why?
You are so fixated on the presidential race you are ignoring that in every one of 11 states where there was a ballot initiative prohibiting gay marriage, it passed, in many cases by overwhelming majorities. Why?
Why don't people like you get it?
The Democratic party doesn't need to "dumb down". You can drop your geek pomposity. Your analysis indicates that you aren't any more "clueful" than the people who voted for someone other than Sen. Kerry.
There was a huge voter turnout. The media focus on the Democrat 527s missed the point that huge numbers of evangelicals and blue-collar people turned out to vote. They didn't always vote Republican, but many of them did. What you should be asking is, why?
Check those ballot initiatives. Look at the overall picture, and it becomes clear.
People didn't vote for George Bush because of his handling of the economy. They didn't vote for him solely because of war rhetoric.
They voted for him also because they didn't want a social liberal who has consistently voted for gun control, or who avoided a vote on an amendment to the consitution on gay marriage, to be president. They didn't vote for Sen. Kerry because he was a social liberal. They didn't vote for Sen. Kerry because Michael Moore was for him. They didn't vote for Sen. Kerry because they didn't like his behavior in the Vietnam era. They didn't like him because he was all-too-obviously the candidate of foreign powers.
If there was a "Dukakis in a tank" moment in this election, it was when John Kerry put on brand-new camos and went goose-hunting after the NRA came out for Bush. Many Kerry supporters missed the significance of this. The Kerry campaign people knew that the NRA had just split the union vote.
If the Democrats want to be successful again, they certainly can be. They could trounce the Republicans. But to do so, they would have to make changes that I suspect wouldn't make you very happy.
A Democrat who is opposed to homosexual marriage, who supports gun rights, who is socially conservative, can win. A Democrat who steps away from NAFTA and the WTO (unlike John Kerry or Bill Clinton), can win.
In other words, an old-fashioned Democrat who is socially conservative, mildly protectionist, and who supports a modest social safety net that won't break the bank but provides assurance of real bread n' butter security with regards to health care, can win, would win, and would do so handily. A Democrat who isn't afraid to knock heads overseas, and doesn't act like he cares more about whether the French like him than whether he is representing American interests, can win.
I doubt you would support such a person. You would much rather spit invective and pretend that everyone who thinks differently than you do is more stupid than you. Maybe you would vote for Nader or vote Green before you would vote for the kind of Democrat I'm talking about.
But if the Democrats as a party want to win, they need more Sen. Millers, not more Sen. Kerrys, running for national office.
If I believed in what they are doing over there, I'd be over there, why aren't you?
Troll Like a Champion Today
For the last few years, all i've been hearing in europe over here from the U.S. Leaders was following this theme:
GI: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
GOE: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
If you want to know who wrote this, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Goering and tell it's not happening again. Please!
LLAP & LG
Rene
Look, this thing is totally safe! Built it myself, you know. You just press that button like this and then turn that lev
and if the majority wants something, in a true democracy they would get it, since that is the defin,ition of democracy.
And that my dear man is the flaw with democracy. If the plebs can be led down a path that is immoral, racist, isolationist and imperialistic by one charismatic leader and his religion, then that's fine because *drum roll*
That's democracy kids...
In my country Liberal means a business friend politic, nearer the right. I've always get som cognitive dissonance when I read definitions like Orkut's "very left/liberal". It's an oxymoron. USA political environment is so conservative that any democrat candidate would belong to the right in other countries.
The real problem is not that Americans on the losing side are frustrated, it's that the U.S. is so bitterly divided now. The radicals on each side have been vilifying the other, so much that it's gotten difficult to have a civilized discussion. Most of the people on either side love their country, but we have trouble remembering that in the midst of all the vitriol. Loving your country includes loving the half of the citizens who disagree with you, after all. Or at least recognizing that they're just as much part of the country as you are.
As a nation, we need to start accepting the other side, and try to figure out a way to live together with people whose views and lifestyles we don't especially like (and even abhor). Not a meeting-in-the-middle kind of compromise (which neither side will accept), but some kind of cohabitation agreement where we come to some arrangement that keeps us out of each others' faces. I honestly don't see either side changing their minds about what they don't like in the other, so we need to move beyond the battle for hearts and minds (and laws), and try to accommodate each side.
As for leaving the country, it's not at that point yet. The checks and balances in the system were designed expressly to avoid the evils of majority rule, and it's up to those on the 'blue' side to make sure their senators and reps use those checks to the fullest. The checks and balances have already reined in the worst excesses of the Bush administration, like the attempted end-run around the court system.
Bring it on! The people of the United States have 222 million firearms - or just over 1.5 for every adult in the country. I personally own 8, and about 2000 rounds of ammunition in total. When I see a "peacekeeper" in the US, I don't plan to stop shooting till I'm dead or out of ammo. And there are 50 million or so more, just like me.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Why did Kerry lose? Why did Democratic pary lose more of its share in the senate?
The White house and the Republicans were smart and farsighted enough to realize that by galvanizing the religious, the evangelical community, it stands to gain the most. And they did. As much as Democrats gained by getting the youths out to vote (even then it wasnt a total success as less than 1 in 10 voter was between 18-24), Republicans reaped the rewards of getting Rural america to vote. Thus, being slanted towards the left that I am, I believe Poor people, uneducated, mostly white as well as blue collar americans decided to stay the course with their president. Reasons are quite a few. And has a lot to do with how the Republican's stayed the course, kept their message clear and did not waver, did not admit any mistakes (though they were made all over).
But most of all, Bush won four more years, because they were able to equate Democratic party and Kerry with a Sinful party, a party that is elitist, that looks down upon their religion and cares more about the environment than their jobs. All of which the white house and the Bush administration were eager enough to portray Kerry and his cohorts as least interested in the commmon man and his values. People who voted for Bush, atleast a significant portion, voted overwhelmingly for his virtues (though there are seemingly none) and the values they believed he will uphold.
Republicans also were smart enough to include the Ban for Same Sex marriage on the ballot, thereby once again drawing a parallel between morality and the Presidency. As Republican party seemed more and more the party that cared about religious values, about people's jobs, about tax cuts(though for wealthy), and about the nation's security, The Democratic party seems more and more elitist, belonging to the yuppies, caring more about tree huggers than about the loggers and their jobs, caring more about gays and their rights than about "preserving the sanctity of marriage" and ultimately wavering all over the place with their message and their views on foriegn policy. Kerry also couldnt put forth a consistent and coherent plan on Iraq. I almost wish he had said: "We will pull out of Iraq in six months, regardless of what the cost, to save more american lives, and we will let a Global coalition sort out the mistakes of the previous administration", that could have been a start. But he didnt and as time wore on, there wasnt much of a difference between Bush and Kerry on the war on terror and the war in Iraq and the differences they did have were on moral grounds, on values, on tax cuts, on environmental rights, that majority of Rural america dont give a hoot for.
It will be interesting and we will all be watching the road ahead with trepidation. There is a possibility that the current administration, takes the permission to rule fairly for the next four years, as a god given right and squander it, infact, its not a possibility, it is certain. This President had a chance to unite the country 3 years ago, but he didnt. I dont think he will start now. We will have 4 more years of the same, but more over, we will look back on this day and wonder why we voted to give him 4 more years.
Rapid Nirvana
And surely, if he does not want to see interracial marriage become an accepted practice, surely it is the right thing to do. Right? Right? How is it different?
People used to justify stomping on the civil rights of black people just like they currently are doing to gay people. It's bigotry, plain and simple. All you're doing is calling your bigotry a "moral value" to make it sound upstanding. People used to to racial separatism a moral value.
Your kids are not going to turn gay just because they see gay people. Would you have turned gay? I don't know about you, but it wouldn't have mattered how many gay men I saw kiss, boobies would still have given me a woody.
People are so afraid of turning gay - makes me wonder if they're *already* gay.
It's those very issues that won the election for Bush.
The vast majority of Americans are some Christian derivative. Nothing wrong with that.
These Christian folks have some strong-held beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.
But what tangible affect on the day-today lives of those Christians do those issues really have? None. None at all. They're not gonna get an abortion, nor will they marry a same-sex partner.
So... does having a president in office supporting those views really change much? Not a whit.
Never mind his obvious lying and the smear campaign during the election. Never mind the dubious war we're waging, the jobs fleeing over seas, or the the US's growing debt. Nevr mind that Molly Morman's kids can be sent to war next week, so long as we have a president strong on "morals" who might get R. v. W. overturned by the supreme court and amend our most important rights-protecting document to exclude a segment of the population.
So let's recap: War good. Fags bad. Huge deficit good. Personal choice in medical care (abortion) bad.
As much as I liked him as a President, I think Clinton is the reason we're in this mess (that whole scandal thing). People hold party faith like they hold religious faith -- without any thought or intelligence put into it. They go with the flow, 'cause it's the easiest thing to do.
For fuck's sake. Kerry was no shining star, but we had 4 years of Bush. I'd pick an unknown for the next 4 years. I can't praise Dems for thinking Kerry was the right choise, but I can fault 'Pubs for not knowing Bush was the wrong one. Why go with Bush again? Oh yeah, he hates fags.
We deserve to get attacked again. We really do. We're such sheep.
Method of processing duck feet
How many Marines do you think there are that think that military force is the wrong way to solve problems?
The Marines absolutely have to believe they're doing the right thing. That absolute, unwavering belief is part of what keeps them alive.
The thing is, Marines are generally not political scientists. They're not experts on foreign relations, and they don't know the nuances of the different branches of Islam. They're the pointy end of the stick, and they're damn good at being that.
The problem is, the person weilding that pointy stick has to use that stick effectively. They're supposed to be the ones who *do* know about diplomacy, who *do* know about the history of the region, the culture, and everything else. Loyal marines should *not* be wasted on something that is not going to make the country or the world safer.
What many of the "liberals" think is that not only is it awful that US soldiers are being killed, the bad part is that it is making both the country and the world a less safe place. It's the job of the Marines to do what the Commander in Chief says to do, including dying. Its the job of the voters to choose a Commander in Chief who won't send them to die unless it's absolutely necessary.
If you disagree, and think that their deaths are necessary to help save the world, why not enlist. It's something that far more of the current democrat politicians have done than republicans. Maybe that should tell you something.
> Until one person, one single person, on /. is arrested on some trumped up charges, shut the fuck up with the Nazi analogies.
Because obviously /. is the entire US. And obviously it doesn't matter if OTHER people are arrested and detained indefinitely on trumped-up charges, just so long as they aren't _us_.
"First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew."
Why is it that most the posts I see on here are assuming that the majority are morons and only the liberals know what is best for the country. I guess you need to get it out of your system, rant away. I think most of you forget about all the other facets of the country's Gov't that shapes our future. It is not one man. I think as an american people we need to stop whining so much and actually do something about the economy and the events around us. We love to talk but we hate to do anything ourselves. Let someone else do it and bitch about how we could have done it better. Great mentality. How about we do something different for a change. Support the Gov't, work on reforms as a people. If you dont like something, DO something to change it, start a petition, talk to your representatives. Just stop whining....
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
I find it interesting that in the areas of the country at the highest risk of terrorism most people voted against Bush. New York City voted almost 5:1 against Bush and D.C. 9:1. However, in rural America people feel he's the best one to take on the terrorists. Funny how things become clearer when it's your ass on the line.
WARNING: WE HAVE NOT CONDUCTED A FELONY-CONVICTION SEARCH OR FBI SEARCH ON THIS INDIVIDUAL.
Wow. What a sad, sad bunch of whining losers.
My family (wife and three kids) supported Bush this year. Not because he's the magic bullet which will fix America's problems, but because he's much less dangerous than Kerry. Last night at dinner, the kids were watching the early returns, and were worried that Kerry might win. I told them, "Kerry might win. If he does, he's going to be our president for four years, and we'll do our best to support him. Everything will be all right."
Kerry was a very, very poor candidate. He was, as it turns out, unelectable. The Democrats were given the "Perfect Storm" election:
--A sitting president engaged in an unpopular war, with no clear extraction date
--An incumbent who can't reliably speak the English language
--Job loss statistics pointing to millions of lost jobs
--Massive healthcare cost inflation
--A swing from huge budget surpluses to huge deficits
--A "charged-up" base who felt that the 2000 election had been stolen
--Hundreds of millions of $ in 527 support
The Democratic party should have had no trouble presenting a candidate who would have been able to crush the incumbent. Instead, they chose Kerry.
I understand you're mad at the results. I think it's time to look inwardly, and reform the Democratic Party. Learn from this mistake. Show the American people that you're not run by left-wing nutjobs, and field an electable candidate, and I can't see how you lose in 2008.
Unless you try to nominate Hillary.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
This was said to be the most important election of our lives. Does anybody still feel that way, considering the outcome?
Let's think with a clear head here. Most Americans, the ones that voted for Kerry included, have no idea what's going on in the world. You can try to figure out why that is (media is f-d up, people being taught to lead selfish materialistic lives from the day they are born, etc.), but that's irrelevant to this discussion. The popular vote was for Bush, and that's who won. So, at least in this election, you could say that the will of the majority was expressed. I am not concerned with why more than half of the people who voted did so for Bush. They did, and he won.
Change is not as simple as having P. Diddy start a campaign. Real change is very hard. Near impossible. You have to educate people, in such a way that they seek out information. You do not teach people what they should think. You teach them to think, and show them what methods are available for gathering information. What they think afterwards is up to them. This is not even close to being a reality in the USA. Most people are simply concerned with their well-being and materialistic things - I want an iPod, I want a bigger truck, I want this, I want that. I want. It is very easy to control such people, because they are short-sighted and distracted. And Kerry would not have made any difference whatsoever in this respect. The imperialistic foreign policy America puts forth would have been relatively the same, albeit probably with a much less arrogant and aggressive façade.
The rest of the world pretty much lives in ignorance too, much like the people of the US. As long as you don't add insult to injury, like Bush likes to do, they have their own local problems to focus on. Granted, their problems are a bit different from yours and mine - we're worried about what Apple will legally allow you to download to your iPod, while some of them are worried about where their next meal will come from. In the end, none of it matters, although you do need food for basic life support.
Killing people, however, is unacceptable. And probably the biggest tragedy of all this is that most of the people who voted for Bush don't realize what they support because of the distorted view of the war. Make no mistake, Kerry was no great leader - far from it. But a) my personal opinion is that he is at least barely more intelligent than Bush and, more importantly, b) I think a few more lives would have been spared around the globe were he president.
Please note that lives are lives, and it is morally wrong to make a distinction between innocent foreigners and innocent Americans when it comes to dieing. Yet this is accepted as common practice in this country.
Must-not-watch TV!
Well, your disdain for the American electoral and political environment is part of the reason the election turned out as it did.
Just because you think all of Bush's decisions were bad doesn't mean the rest of the country has to agree.
Maybe your opinions are not the mainstream. Maybe -- just maybe -- your opinion that all of Bush's decisions were "bad" are wrong.
I'm sick of this whole liberal attitude of how "dumb" the common person is. GWB is "dumb". People who want to control a part of their social security plan are too "dumb" to not get screwed. Government control of everything is the way to go. Tax the bejesus out of everyone because they just can't be trusted, certainly not as much as our fine politicians.
Isn't a cornerstone of liberal idealism being "open-minded"? But if you don't happen to agree with an "open-minded" liberal, you're just dumb, and should be dismissed.
Why not instead take a good hard look at this election, and accept the quite obvious fact that the Democrats are simply OUT OF TOUCH with the mainstream.
Or, take the easy route and say everyone who doesn't think like you is just "dumb".
All I know is that I want nothing -- nothing -- to do with any of the red states.
Hold up just a second. You have to realize that not ALL of a particular state is 'red'. I'm in IL, which went to Kerry. However, I'm in the lower part of the state, St Clair county. Right across the river from here is St Louis, MO, which is part of a "red" state. However, look at the voter breakdown. St Louis was ALSO for Kerry. My particular region is pretty heavy in Democratic support.
What I'm getting at is, don't hate a whole state because its vote went to Bush. Remember that parts of those states voted the other way, but just weren't big enough to carry the state. If you want to hate the red states fine, as long as we get to annex St Louis.
NOTE: I really like St Louis and don't want them lumped in with the rest of MO.
C Pungent
Before the election I was disgusted by Bush, but now I'm disgusted by our entire country. I can only hope that he'll break things so badly that people out in the midwest/south will be forced to start thinking.
[javac] 100 errors
Look at what happened to the Democratic party as a whole.
- They spent more money on Kerry than on anyone else in their history. I even heard the out-spent the Republicans.
- The conservative religious people in 11 states (including Ohio & Nevada) banned gay marriages which helped get out the religious vote. These people are traditionally anti-abortion republicans. Kerry is a well know supporter of abortion.
- The Republicans gained seats in the Senate
- The Republicans gained seats in the House of Representatives.
- The Republicans hold the majority of governor's seats.
- Democratic Senator Tom Daschle was defeated. The first time a party leader was defeated in 52 years.
- The Democratic party spent a good deal of time in court in keeping Nader off of the ballot in some states. If you were a Nader supporting Democrat it was a tough pill to swallow.
The Democratic party was hit hard in this election.
It will be interesting to see what the restructuring effort will be.
I, too, am getting really pissed with the red states, meaning (for me) the deep south. Why is it, that every time we try to make any progress at all, whether it be the end of slavery, civil rights for blacks, women's suffrage, religious rights, gay rights, ANYTHING, we always have to drag them, kicking and screaming about the dire, dire consequences? Now 11 of them have voted to Ban gay marriage.
You do realize that history won't look back at this as the heroic defense of christianity any more than your fight against civil rights was a heroic defense of society? Why do you insist on forcing your beliefs on others?
You've turned the republican party into a tool of the christian right, something that is no longer fiscally conservative in any way, shape or form. Congrats on moving America backwards. Maybe you'd be happier in a theocracy. Just look at the existing theocracies of world, Iran for instance. THAT is the direction you're moving us.
Everything seemed to be going so nice
'till the end of all beings punched right through the ice
Many of us are just as shocked and disappointed as you are. I and 55,124,615 of my closest friends did our best to elect a non-madman, but we ultimately failed to an administration that invaded a country without cause, "lost" $2 billion to Halliburton, and had enough political capital left over to win a second term on a campaign targeted exclusively at their own base.
Before 2000, I was a conservative Republican. I saw the need in that election to put the country ahead of my own party and voted Libertarian. This time, I voted for Kerry. I don't love the Democratic party, but the dangerous state of events in our country right now calls for any plausible opposition, even if it comes from people I disagree with on most issues.
What we've seen here is the final defeat in a long war of ideas that liberals have been steadily losing since 1988. We need to reinvent opposition to the current government along new lines of political thought. I plan on working with my Democrat friends to try to develop that opposition. It will take time, but please remember that there are many of us who aren't happy with the way things are over here and are doing everything we can to fix it.
"Read my lips, no new draft."
Yes. Thank you, Congress. Thank you, pork-barrel spending.
Thank you GOP-run Congress, yes.
- Figure out how to best invest your $300 annual Bush tax savings to cover the social security benefits you'll never get
Vs. paying even more to the government and still not getting any social security benefits. (I'd like to be able to put some of mine away in private funds, thank you, call me crazy.)
You're crazy if you think the GOP cares about this more than tongue-in-cheek. Look, the populace is getting OLD. Guess who runs the GOP? You guessed it: the elderly. Social Security is staying come hell or high water or the GOP will be out of office. Period.
Having said that, the first step in fixing it, either way, is eliminating Congressional pensions and making Congress eat their own dogfood. Bush is too chicken shit to demand that.
- Become rich, then get all your income from mostly untaxed dividends and capital gains income
Yes, please, "become rich." We know that is an easy thing that just magically happens to people. They don't work hard, educate themselves, nor rely on their skills to make this happen. They are just "lucky," and deserve to be taxed even heavier than they are already!
It is true that luck plays into it. Parental backgrounds, parental money, community and direct government support factor far more into "making it" than you suppose. Don't believe me? Remind me again how many west Africans are "making it"? (I'm borrowing from Bill Gates, Sr.'s book on why it's ethical to tax the rich more)
Personally, I think the estate tax should be 100% to make the system more meritocratic and less aristocratic. Furthermore, I agree with your flat/fair and/or sales tax proposal. It's the only way for people to see how damn expensive these ridiculous oil wars are.
-l
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The democrats need to start presenting canidates that people like (Dean), instead of canidates that they think will "win" (Kerry). And don't ask me why the democrats don't think popular canidates with a large grass-roots movement behind them won't win, because I really don't know.
Yup, Iran is pleased with this outcome...
Anybody else?
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
I'm a Canadian who works in the US, and I'm retired military to boot, so I've been following this election with some interest. Here's my take.
The Democatic Party nominated THE single least electable canditate they could have laid their hands on.
You could have had General Clark - impeccable personal integrity, proven leadership ability (he ran NATO fer crissakes!) super handle on foreign policy - can you imagine Bush debating him? And no Senate voting record to dog him around.
You could have had Howard Dean, and gone for the young rockstar angle. New and hip vs old-skool and scary. Look at Illinois for how effective that can be.
You could have even had Al Sharpton and gone for pure shock and entertainment value.
Instead, you wound up with the Democratic version of your opponent - old-skool, big money, old boys club, pork-barrel, professional weasel-featured politician.
You made an election that _should_ have been a simple decision between good and evil into a choice between the lesser of two evils. What the HELL kind of strategy is "our guy may suck, but he sucks less"?
The American public is CRYING out for simple, strong, effective, and HONEST leadership. You actually sucker a decent man into the job, and you'll carry the country in a landslide. What the HELL were you thinking when you let Kerry get nominated?
My advice to you and your fellow confused and befuddled Democrats is to get active in the internal politics of your own party, and to work like mad to make sure the next guy you present to the electorate actually stands a chance at being elected.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Liberals LOVE threatening to leave when their horse finishes last, so DO IT and leave us to fail miserably in our "fascism" and "right-wing extremism".
This election really wasn't about liberal values vs. conservative values, at least not in a way that would be recognizable to the nation even ten years ago. This election was, in many ways, a referendum on a fundemental change in the political landscape of America, with the new dividing line between liberal values and moral values.
Frankly, for a lot of us here in the blue states (liberal and conservative alike), the issues that matter to the moral values crowd just seem alien. Most of us honestly believed that this election was going to firmly and decisively prove that only a very small, very vocal group of people really give a damn about about moral value issues. We believed that the moral values crowd would be swept off the national stage, and the country go back to the debate between old fashioned liberal versus conservative values.
We were wrong.
I'm guessing that y'all in the red states have known how important "moral values" are for years. In the blue states, we were completely blindsided by it, and it scares the shit out of most of us. The fact is, nearly a third of the electorate believes that "moral values" are an important issue. We honestly had no idea it mattered to anyone, and most of us us are scratching our heads trying to figure out why it would matter to anyone.
The issues that suddenly matter suprise us. In the blue states, we might disagree on abortion, or same-sex unions, or the words "under God" in the pledge of allegience, but for the most part we really just don't give a shit about them. They may all get talked about on the "news" networks, but we view them as filler in between the ceasless prattle about the Peterson trial. They're certainly not an issue that anyone would base a vote on.
It turns out that same-sex marriage is a very important issue in America. In the blue states, we had no idea that anyone gave a damn.
It turns out that the words "under God" in the Plege of Allegience is a very important issue in America. In the blue states, we just can't see how it really matters.
It turns out that public displays of The Ten Commandments is a very important issue in America. In the blue states, we might individually be for or against it, but collectively we really just don't care.
It turns out that abortion is a very important issue in America. In the blue states, we may have strong feelings one way or the other, but for the most part we thought the issue was decided twenty years ago.
In other words, this election heralds the arrival of a whole new set of important issues on the national political stage. And, frankly, in the blue states the fact that any of these issues are even being discussed scares the living shit out of us.
When I woke up this morning, it was to the news that the United States of America is not the country that I thought it was when I went to bed last night.
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04 /html/new_10_21_04.html
"Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points. Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found."
Americans may not be dumb, but a large percentage of them are surely living under a rock! And that's certainly not the fault of "liberal" Democrats.
You are correct, Europe and the US have seperated ideologically. And as you state, "respect" is in short supply. But, rather than "whine" about how wrong the "others" are, why not try to gain some fundemental understanding of why people think the way they do. Far too many people in this country ( USA) and across the world get caught up in this "Us" versus "Them" mentality without even stopping to debate the real issues at hand. I had hoped that slashdot's political section would be a place for such a dialog to take place, but it seems that we get the same crud here as everywhere else.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Because that was before the election, and now it's after?
Besides, this isn't a matter of party. The fact is that Bush is a warmonger regardless of what party he happens to belong to, and he doesn't have enough troops.
It's simple math. We aren't going to have enough troops to take on Iraq AND Iran AND North Korea. We know Bush plans to do this. We also know that people aren't exactly joining the Army in droves. I think the result is obvious.
I'm just glad that my brother and I are out of the age group which will be drafted first. Hopefully the first kids to die will be all the ones who didn't vote in the election. And I'm going to have a hard time being sympathetic.
Tell me, if you guys are so damn smart, then why are you out the presidency, why are you out more senate seats, and why are you out a few more house seats too?
(Note: Americans are dumb is not an acceptable answer.)
It may be unnacceptable, but its true.
If you want a more acceptable one (by your terms): Good guys finish last.
When you lose this big, and this consistently, there is something wrong with your side.
48% to 51%.
Its because you people spew stuff like "when you loose this big" to a margin of 3% that people infer that you are not smart.
Also, you're blindly following a guy who can't say "nuclear", who says things like "catastrophic cucess" and who says "mission accomplish" when things are just getting started.
You can't take the sky from me...
What he was referring to, albeit rather poorly, is this odd idea called "cause and effect." That is, actions cause reactions, and thus that terrorists' actions are in part (if not majorly) determined by the world in which they live. The more injustice seen by muslims around the world, the more they will consider becoming terrorists, and the more resources a terrorist organization will have. More resources mean more likelihood of a successful attack. Is this not logical?
Of course, there's the definition of 'injustice', which is somewhat relative, but I'll get to that later.
Draft? Hate to tell you this, but the draft was the democrats idea, and now it's certainly not going to come to pass.
This is a mindless jab at the Democrats. Kerry also refuted a draft, so your contention here is just as justified as the one you're responding to (that GWB/Rep = draft).
The middle east has been propetually in conflict. We've now established two democracies (well, probably 1.5 so far). The region used to only have death. Now it has both death and hope.
And what if China thought the US becoming communist would significantly reduce the amount of conflict in the world, and thus invaded us - and won? Would that be 'just' or an 'injustice'? It certainly would have been a justified war in the eyes of the supporters of communism, just as installing democracies around the world is seen as justified by - surprise - democracies! But I have a feeling Americans would feel that it was actually an injustice done to them. So what you see as a 'just' and necessary overthrowing of a tyrant government, most other people see as empire trying to expand it's own reach and violently forcing its ways upon people who never even asked for help. So for you America is spreading 'hope', but to the people who feel they're being occupied, it's spreading 'oppresion'. Or, as someone in that region might say, 'more of the same'.
Forcing your ideologies on other people is based on a belief that your ideology is right for everyone - including those who you don't understand or identify with. You talk like you're intimately familiar with matters of the Middle East, and know what's best for everyone there, yet if you're like most people I've talked to, you've never been there and know little more than what you read in the papers. I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong, of course. And the ironic part is that you later go on to say that the rest of the world doesn't know what's right for America! (But we do, in fact, know what's right for the rest of the world, right?)
Ummm.... it's the dems that like to play funny games with the constitution. They don't like the fact that conservative judges actually look to what the constitution says, and what the founders meant when they wrote it. The dems think it needs to be "interpretted dynamically" (i.e. mean whatever the judge says it means).
The Old Testament says an eye for an eye, but the New Testiment says turn the other cheek. By your logic, if rules as serious at those in the Constitution are not meant to be 'dynamic', Jesus had no place challenging the "eye for an eye" law, and we should be using it as the basis of our legal system as well. But the world changes, and the law needs to change too. And spare me your response about eroding the Constitution, no one is intending to do that. (The Patriot Act and DMCA probably come closer to that than most of the things you're actually responding to anyways.)
In any case, your statement ignores the fact that *interpretation* is as a matter of fact a dynamic process that depends on the individual interpreting. If it needs to be interpreted at all, there was in fact some ambiguity in it. Possibly the Framers of the Constitution left a little ambiguity in there for a reason? Democracy thrives when there are many different interpretations being debated, not when the only people being heard are all on the same side. I don't believe th
We'd also be a lot better off if we stopped pretending that the current parties have any sort of ideological foundations, even the very simple liberal/conservative dichotomy you've described. Anyone who thinks Dubya is a conservative doesn't know the meaning of the word.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
At one time, the majority of American citizens were pro-slavery. That wasn't right. Bush isn't right. Different reasons, same effect.
Personally, I just can't shut up because I didn't think a Bush victory was even remotely conceivable. I have fundamental problems with any chain of reasoning, either moral or ethical, that leads to supporting Bush as the correct result. The decisions of so many other people do not affect my decisions in the least. Otherwise we'd be voting because of peer pressure, the country would be full of sheep, and there would be no differences of opinion (or new opinions on new subjects).
I've heard from about a half dozen liberal friends about the election so far, and without exception each one has instantly run afoul of Goodwin's Law.
In my book, it goes quite some ways towards explaining why they lost.
I've had my .2 second thought about this. But there's one problem - in W's second term, we don't know how many people are going to die as a result of his policies. I'm not comfortable laying down to watch X,000 or XX,000 young American soldiers, or XX,000 or XXX,000 Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians, Iranians, Phillipinos, Thais or whomever get killed because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There is a need for a war against terrorists, sure. W's plan is not that type of war. His war is a crusader's war and that cannot be swallowed whole and without resistance.
Organize to defend our rights or literally die.
I'd buy that for a dollar. (canned laughter)
Let me tell you why I strongly dislike George Bush.
These are just a few of the many reasons I think George W. Bush is entirely unfit for the office of the president. Also, please bear in mind that the above proposals were done in his first term - a term where he knew he would be seeking reelection. What's the man going to do now that he knows he's got nothing else to run for?
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
when bush totally alienates the USA from the rest of the world. this is one of my biggest fears. the brand called "America" has been tarnished by this administration's bullying and selfishness. if we cry wolf (read "WMD") next time who's gonna help?
http://www.chrysanthalbee.com/wordpress
If you're really concerned about politics than vote at a local level. Local representatives can do a whole lot more to your life than the president can.
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
So he provides some evidence, and you respond with "but I didn't want *that* evidence!"
I suppose I should have pointed out HOW MANY MILLIONS OF TIMES i've seen his 'evidence.'
Suppose I grant you his 'evidence' is true, and widely accepted. Kerry still would have lost, because of the fundamental problems I'm talking about.
'Evidence' for various sides has been batted back and forth ad naseum on this and countless other message boards, and i've been at bat many times.
The only thing we can consistently see is that the democrats lose.
But you want a reason that the democratic party failed. Here, I'll try one: the democratic party is less able to mislead people into believing that they share an agenda.
Keep telling yourself that you just need to fool the people more, and fight dirtier. See how far it gets you.
And if you believe that GWB and crew are actually republicans, and not self-proclaimed neoconservatives hijacking the republican party, then you have some more research to do
Although I don't agree with everything Bush has done, I think he's the right president at the right time.
As for the republican party, I'm hoping that the Democratic party will finish dying soon, so another party can rise up that's actually closer to my beliefs. Maybe constitutionalists, some folks along those lines. Until then, I'll pick whoever's closer to what I want.
My point was that the Democrats continue to lose without bothering to question if there's anything fundamentally wrong with their beliefs and platform.
I don't want to argue about any shortcomings of Bush or the republicans, as I'm familiar with them, and I can live with them until a credible alternative comes along.
It should be obvious by now, however, that the shortcomings of the democrats are near fatal in comparison.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
When you lose this big, and this consistently, there is something wrong with your side.
I'm a Democrat, and I totally agree with you. You're 100% right, and it was just demonstrated to us, again. So the question becomes: do the Democrats finally learn their lesson, and make changes? If so, what are those changes that they have to make to win? I don't know if the party will learn the lesson from this election: there was interesting talk radio about that today; but the posts that answered you weren't appropriately self-reflective.
Naturally, I'm not a Democratic party decision maker, but it'll be interesting to see if they implement any of the things that I think that they should do to win: A) Get focused, and don't be afraid of being angry. I think the Dems need more Dean and less Kerry, even if some folks get their feelings hurt. B) Learn how to communicate the Democratic belief in values. We have a belief in family values; we don't define it the same way, is all. We need to be able to communicate what that value is. Democrats love their children too.
I think that's where the Dems should start, at least. If it's done or not remains to be seen--but I think this loss will tear it, and some heads will roll. If those strategies will work or not I think remains to be seen also--but at least it'll be more competitive.
--
$tar -xvf
This is truly an illustration of exactly the kind of human being (and I use that phrase exceptionally loosely, here) that Bush and the people who re-elected him were. Someone expresses their misery and desperation over
1) Very likely having their child drafted to be killed or maimed in a foreign war
2) The US most likely becoming more and more alienated from the rest of the planet
3) The loss of life that will result in continuing terrorist acts in response to Bush's activities,
and not only does this most quintessential of Bush advocates continue trumpeting the usual rhetoric, but has the gall to cuss the parent author out for expressing their pain. I am gasping...I honestly can't believe this. And I know it's only going to get worse.
Please, please, please encourage all of your liberal buddies to push this agenda hard.
;-)
You might want to keep in mind the overall trend of tax money sources and destinations...
To an astonishing degree (shocked the hell out of me when I found this out), tax money flows out of the blue states, and into the red ones.
So yeah, you can bet that I'll push that agenda amongst all my "liberal buddies", and try my best to cut all you damned red leeches off blue-funded welfare.
But look at the bright side... Companies in blue states might grace your sad red economic state ("in the red"... tee-hee) with a few bucks from outsourcing. Now go make me some Nikes, boy!
Oh, and remember -- all of the nuclear weapons are in "red" states.
But, for balance, all the engineers capable of maintaining them live (or at least got their education) in the blue states. So enjoy them, until they rot and pollute your groundwater, finally eliminating the vast tracts of redness via radiation-induced infertility.
Have a nice day.
I am a US citizen who left the United States in 2001 as a direct result of the election of Bush. My father was a presidentially-appointed government employee under Clinton, but Bush replaced him with a Republican (as is standard operating procedure when a president from a different party is elected). Dad therefore got a job at the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda prosecuting war criminals from the Rwanda genocide and my entire family moved to Tanzania.
Overall I am glad to be in Tanzania, and out of a country where people are so phenomenally stupid, misled, or uninformed that they would consider voting for a president responsible for the destruction of America's economy, budget surplus, international image, and at least 14000 innocent lives. Most of my friends here are from Europe or Asia (I attend an international school) and it is refreshing to encounter other people with real leftist, liberal views (as opposed to the current US democrats who are more conservative than most countries' conservative parties).
I was very much hoping for a victory for Kerry because I think a renewal of US ties with the rest of the world and a gradual pullout from Iraq would make the world (and the US in particular) a safer place, because it seemed like Kerry's economic policies had the greatest chance of decreasing the US deficit, and because I think the US needs to catch up to the rest of the developed world in government support for education and health care. I was initially planning to attend university in the US, but now that Bush has been elected I don't think I want to, both due general anger over the removal of civil liberties and other problems that have resulted and will continue to result from Bush's control of the government, and because of the specific fear, however unlikely, of a military draft. Given this election result, I will likely attend university in the UK, as Blair is at least fairly sensible from a domestic policy point of view (despite his tendency to be subservient to Bush in international policy). The rest of my family will likely remain in Tanzania until 2008, by which time the American public will hopefully have emerged from their brainwashed stupor.
You are not an idiot, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, separation of church and state should be a consideration in your vote too. Having faith is all well and good, but it is up to us to take care of things here on Terra Firma.
I still don't get why liberal means pussy, yet conservative doesn't mean poorly educated white trash.
Probably because some of us who consider ourselves 'conservative' (i.e. me) have multiple college degrees with near 4.0 grade point averages. Not poorly educated, not white trash. Come to think of it, none of the other conservatives I know are 'poorly educated' or 'white trash.'
I know some homeless dope-smoking liberal college dropouts who won't get jobs, however. I won't use those to describe everyone who calls themselves liberal, though, because I also know plenty liberals who understand that it's better to earn what you have rather than have it handed to you, and therefore have nice homes, college educations that got them good jobs, and other amenities that they can enjoy.
Anyway, I like target shooting, the ability to keep my hard-earned money, and being able to choose for myself whether or not I need health insurance and where I want to invest my retirement dollars. What I don't understand is why so many people have a problem with this.
To me, 'liberal' is quite often near-synonymous with with this definition: Someone who wants to tell me where to spend my money, how to spend my money, where to work, how to work, how much to work, what I can and cannot own, and what I can and cannot do with my property.
Oh, you mentioned 'logging' in your post. I don't know where you are from, but here in Oregon I've personally witnessed a few big burly loggers in tears begging one of our Senators (you guess which one) to oppose unbalanced and extreme anti-logging legislation that put them out of work and threatened to put their children out of work and destroy the economic basis of their entire communities.
We've got hundreds of ex-loggers here attending retraining programs at local colleges, and if you ask them, most would rather be out cutting old trees and planting new ones than learning how to code HTML and/or fix cars or airplanes.
On a personal note, my wife's grandfather was a millworker. It's shut down two of three lines and laid hundreds of people off. Her father was also a millworker, that mill is now closed.
Can you guess how I vote?
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Yeah, but they can show tits on TV.
sic transit gloria mundi
1. Get your brother's and father's friends to steal the election for you and become president
2. Clear brush on your ranch all summer, ignoring warnings that bin Laden wants to fly airplanes into buildings (until he does)
3. Convince your gullible voter base that you have made them safer because it only happened once and win re-election
4. Profit!!!
Here lies wisdom.
Rest In Peace.
I for one do not salute our old fear-mongering, xenophobic, crusading overlord.
Your contender in the meeting was saying that Bush has authorized the rape and murder of millions in Iraq. The number is much lower than that, but her interpretation of what has happened is akin to Hitler in WWII. He personally did not kill millions, but he authorized it. If you feel that Bush was innocent, then you feel that Hitler was innocent.
Also, you are doing exactly what you say you dislike: voting for someone specificaly because of 'hate'. You dislike the hatred from democrats so much that you voted against them. You're a hipocrite!
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
I do not think you are an idiot, I think you miss the point of our nation as a whole.
This nation was founded thanks to the desire to be free of a leadership based in religion. Yes, it was originally founded to give those who came over the right to worship the christian god the way that they chose rather than the way they were told to worship by the governance of Britain. We have lost the ideal of religious freedom in the united states of america (lowercase on purpose, as I have lost all respect for our populace)... It has become the new trend to enforce christian (and dubiously at that) views on all of this nation, rather than following our own beliefs for ourselves, and allowing others to worship and act as they should for their religions. It pains me, but america has become the country that our founders fled from. The worst of it, is that there's nowhere for those of us who still believe in freedom to flee to.
Americans are (justifiably) proud of their technological achievements. These don't just happen; some of the best, brightest, and most highly educated people in the world worked hard to bring them about.
I would like to point out that most of this excellence took place in the blue (Democrat) areas on the map.
I know there are
- Intelligent, educated Republicans
- Intelligent, educated rural people
- Intelligent, educated southerners and midwesterners
- Intelligent, educated Christians
but the fact is, less- or under-educated people are more likely to vote Republican.And as for why the less educated "don't get it", there was an article on Slashdot a few months ago about how a minimum level of competence in a field is required before learning can take place (sorry, can't find the link). These people "don't know that they don't know."
Tell me, if you guys are so damn smart, then why are you out the presidency, why are you out more senate seats, and why are you out a few more house seats too?
By definition, people of above average intelligence are outnumbered.
If that was insightful, here's the flamebait: In the interests of re-election, the best Republican policy on education would be much talk about improvement, but no action.
"The empty vessel makes the greatest sound." -- William Shakespeare; Henry V, 4. 4
that if a candidate ran on a platform of "I hate baseball and apple pie, and I eat babies for breakfast", 51% of the voters would still vote for him if he was nominated by the Republican party. Most people know nothing about any "issues", they just know how to pull the red or blue lever like they're told. And, before I get flamed, the Democrats are no less guilty, they're just slightly less numerous.
Well you certainly do if you believe that. And still the Democrats wonder why they lost this election. It is this general elitism and malice (towards our own people even) that drives undecided voters away from the liberals and into the arms of the conservatives.
Regardless of your political beliefs, it is pretty sick that you are so petty that you think we deserve to get attacked because Kerry didn't win. You're like a child who's lost a video game and wants to break the machine. Grow the fuck up.
I couldn't exactly describe the feeling I've had all day... until I saw a poster on another site mention it, and it hit me when I'd last felt this way before. And I don't know why it is, but all day, I've felt the same way I did the day of 9/11/2001. ... I can't really say why, though....
"Now we're getting to Science -- I love this!" -- Dr. Steven Chu, Energy Secretary confirmation hearings.
Thank you GOP-run Congress, yes.
The spending bills were not partisan.
You're crazy if you think the GOP cares about this more than tongue-in-cheek. Look, the populace is getting OLD. Guess who runs the GOP? You guessed it: the elderly. Social Security is staying come hell or high water or the GOP will be out of office. Period.
I didn't say it would be abolished. However, Bush *WILL* push through some things to let young people start to put their money into private accounts instead of SS.
It is true that luck plays into it. Parental backgrounds, parental money, community and direct government support factor far more into "making it" than you suppose.
Sorry. Luck goes both ways, good and bad. SOME people are lucky and get rich. SOME people have really bad luck and become poor. The rest of us can blame ourselves, or give ourselves credit, for our success and failures, for the most part.
Democrats like to pretend it's all luck either way, so that we won't feel guilty about taking some of it away. Most rich people have earned their money, or had parents that earned their wealth (and thus earned the right to pass it on to their families).
Remind me again how many west Africans are "making it"?
I know very little about West Africans, same as you no doubt. However, I will assume it is very hard to make it in many African countries wracked with violence. I don't believe increasing taxes on the rich, and wasting their money in government bureacracy, really helps the worthy poorer among us.
Personally, I think the estate tax should be 100% to make the system more meritocratic and less aristocratic.
Socialistic, you mean. I work hard and study long to make money for myself and my future generations. Taking an inheritance away from my family that I have earned (and already been taxed on many times, no doubt) is a slap in the face of individual freedom, on which this country was founded.
It's the only way for people to see how damn expensive these ridiculous oil wars are.
I really don't follow this logic. Presumably you think the sales tax would be raised to pay for the war. In reality, my guess is we will continue deficit spending just as we do now. Sadly, those in Congress can't see the key is to cut spending across the board.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
No. They are 'ignorant', for example, because they support the teaching of creationism in schools.
They're not saying to exclude evolution, so you, by EXCLUDING a theory about unrecorded history are promoting ignorance. As soon as you can explain all the holes in evolution (and if you don't think they are both present and significant, you're more ignorant than we thought) I'll explain the holes in creationism.
They are 'gullible' because they reelected the President after he ran on a platform of national security
THIS is the major one to me. And I think it's a mixture of gullibility and apathy. It's well documented the way this President has misled and deceived the public, but people don't care because either (a) they expect politicians to lie, and to them one lie is as good as another or (b) listen to the unfiltered propaganda coming from Crossfire rather than thinking critically about it and realizing how self-contradictory this President has been.
± 29 dB
I think this has alot more to do with Kerry not being able to get people excited than anything else. I'm a republican, and voted as such, however I seriously wanted someone else to vote for.
This is a fine example of what is wrong with the American public. You don't vote for a man that you feel doesn't deserve to president! If you really think Kerry is that bad, then vote for one of the third-party candidates.
You voted for all of things Bush did that you didn't like, and all of the creative shit we all know he is going to come up with over the next four years. Afterall, imagine what he can think up without having another election to win.
It is something I like about Bush, politicians need to stop being afraid to piss people off, like the saying goes "If you're not on someone's shit list you're not doing anything important.."
When a politician pisses people off, said people don't vote for him.
And obviously Bush isn't afraid to piss people off. When the president of the US cannot correctly say "Internet", I get quite pissed off.
America, YOU FAIL IT.
Vonal Declosion
I grew up in the midwest and now live in the bible belt and I can tell you with complete certainty the majority of the people I know don't give a shit about the facts or reality. Most of them still believe saddahm worked with the terrorists that blew up the wtc, that abortion is their decision for everyone, that gay marriage is their decision for everyone, that "faith" should be their decision for everyone because "they are right." Most of the people around here, in fact, are believers in all that second coming bullshit - to them chaos in the mideast is a GOOD thing because it "clears the way for jesus." These goddamned wackos want nothing more than to see the world vaporized in a cloud of thunder, and this administration is not only catering to their whims, it's preaching those wacko beliefs from the state department.
Fuck your hypocritical "beliefs."
This exchange is a great example of how people's moral beliefs affect their views. Let me demonstrate why the poster advocating gay marrage feels morally outraged by your position. I have changed some key phrases (the ones in all caps) in the post to illustrate. I translated it to a similar debate Americans had in pre-1960s America:
> The government allows RACIALLY MIXED COUPLES to have sex (in privacy like
> everyone else). Do you prefer the government outlaw that?
Not necessarily. But I don't want them to legalize it either by publicly endorsing RACIALLY MIXED marriage.
> So you would like to stop RACIALLY MIXED COUPLES from being TOGETHER and acting accordingly?
I would like to rid them of the delusion that what they do is normal and acceptable. A drug user knows he's wrong to do what he does. However he tries to rationalize his habit, he will never try to publicly announce it and he will not be proud of it. Likewise, RACIALLY MIXED COUPLES should know that they are in the wrong and correct that wrong, either by therapy, or by abstinence.
> I guess you still haven't answered my question
> as to how a RACIALLY MIXED marriage negatively affects you
But I have! I said it did not. But the thing is, if I am faced with a casting a vote for or against it, I have no doubt that I will vote against it. For me to do otherwise would be moral hypocrisy and I would be overwhelmed with guilt for allowing sanctioned SINNING into my world. Just as you are guilty of manslaughter if you allow a man to die by refusing some to take some simple action that would have prevented it, likewise you are guilty of a moral crime if you fail to refuse sanction to that which you consider immoral. I can not prevent the government from giving sanction to RACIAL MIXING if the majority votes for it, but if the government has the courtesy of asking for my opinion before enacting such legislation, I am certainly going to provide it.
> If a RACIALLY MIXED couple living right next door to you married,
> how will your lifestyle be changed as a result of that marriage?
It will not change one bit. But I am a homebody; I don't even remember who my neighbours are. Someone who likes socializing with his neighbours would be affected more.
You feel moral outrage about gays activities and don't want the govenment to endorce it. The other guy feels just as much outrage about government sanctioned discrimination.
-I.V.
"These laws they're passing won't even compile anymore, let alone execute." - anon
When I mentioned the 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq, she still refused to believe that they were not happy that we came in, and that the only ones who didn't want us there were the "radicals".
The simple, but inconceivable (to us) calculus is;
No matter what facts you present to "them" - THEY will not be swayed by people who call them stupid redneck bigots.
Let that be the lesson of November 2, 2004.
Please.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
American history teaches us that many of the immigrants came here to escape religious persecution, or wanted to be self sufficent or for economic opportunity or for a more classless society.
It is pretty hard to sell leftwing ideals to a society which believes in upward class movement (look at some recent studies in which 20+% of people thought they would become rich), believes in hard work, and is one of the most religious western societies.
What benefits would it provide, to someone who works hard to improve themselves? One would have to appeal to ones ability for compassion, but how do you do that in a self centered consumer society which has no history of group cooperation? How can you convince someone that they don't deserve a new SUV or big TV that they have worked for (or put themseleves in debt for), so that someone else, may be able to get health care, or enough food to eat?
Where would funding come from to fund leftist programs? Obviously more taxes, because cutting military funding would take away from manufacturing and research jobs, and all of their supporting industries.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I'm often baffled by people who can't conceive of anyone seeing issues differently than themselves, and who can't understand why someone might have different priorities than they do.
... possibly, but probably not. If you assume they are just stupid and there can't be a good reason to disagree with you, then you alienate yourself.
Here you've got 51% of the population who wants George Bush to be president. You voted against him. So all those people (51%) must be stupid right? After all they don't agree with you. If you honestly think like this, you probably stopped developing mentally at the tender age of 6.
There are a lot of issues that people disagree on vehemently. Your first step should be to understand why the people you disagree with see things differently than you do. Is it because they are stupid/crazy/bastards/wackos?
I've noticed this trend a lot here on slashdot. And if you'd like to keep thinking this way, by all means continue. But if you do, you'll see the next election decided by 4-5% instead of 3%. People don't like it when you look down on them because of disagreement. And that is enough to influence a vote.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
Kerry's shown some integrity and spirit in his concession. Unfortunately, he - and the DNC - showed none when they were running his campaign. For some reason though that ignoring the issues and focusing on FUD was a good idea.
If you think for a second that Bush and the RNC showed any more integrity or spirit in their campaign than did Kerry and the DNC, then I'd love to get a lead on the illicit drugs you must be smoking.
Anyone with any objectiveness about them could see both sides were equally evil in this campaign--they just did it in slightly different ways. Personally, I felt Bush himself was a little less evil, and thus voted for him. At the same time, I wasn't fooled into believing that his campaign was any less vile or underhanded than Kerry's.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
hell, just let the campaigners go to detroit, chicago and cleveland and they can tie up those three states!
Apparently' you're not familiar with the concept of population dispersion. Look at a county by county map of michigan, for example, and you'll see MOST of the state backed Bush. Yet michigan cast all its votes for kerry. why? Because MOST of the people in the state live in the metro detroit area, so the people in the country get to eat cake. Ohio and Chicago are the same way. So is NY, LA - just about every state has a major population center, but in some states the balance is really disproportionate.
Why should the candidates even bother with campaign stops? How many people actually show up for these hokey circle jerks, anyway? Most folks sit home and watch tv - the candidates don't even need to leave washington for that. Now that we have the web and literally anyone can speak their views those quaint "campaign stops" are even more a decadent waste of jet fuel.
One man, one vote is the only fair way. The "electoral college" was made obsolete by the communications revolution.
Seriously, part of the problem here is that people bought into personal attacks that had nothing to do away with issues... Many of which were lies. We need to ban campaign commercials on TV and Radio and just have a series of debates throughout the campaign that are non-negotiated and open to any national party's candidate. Make them debate in public. Make them answer the tough questions. Put in Moderators who will hold every candidate's feet to the fire. Then we'll start to see an educated public make decisions.
Regards, Ian
I don't know why I even read this page. It pisses me off to read comments from liberals or conservatives "moving to canada" if they don't get their way. It pisses me off reading opinions of liberals or conservatives who vote based on religion or lack there of. It pisses me off when liberals or democrats object to THE WAR.
To those who want to go to canada: GO, put your tail between your legs and go. You are a quitter, you will not fight for what you believe in you will quit and cry like a child not getting their way. You don't help this nation you divide it.
To those of you who are crying about Bush being a Christian or the "born again population of your state": Get over it. There are catholic priests fucking little boys, and there are atheist tv stars fucking little boys. No one said life is fair nor suggested it ever would be. Let the legal system sort them out and complain about that.
To the morons complaining about THE WAR: We didn't pick this fight. Do you think OBL, gave a fuck that there were atheists in the towers, do you think he gave a fuck that there were Muslims in the trade towers, do you think he gave a fuck that there were women and children in the trade towers, do you think he gave a fuck that there were catholic priests, tv stars, politicians, or his relatives in the trade towers?
Do you think he is the only one thinking this way?
The world brought the fight here!
GET IT?
Either your with us or not, PERIOD
WE DID NOT START THIS WAR. WE WILL FINISH
At which place doesn't matter unless your soon to be one of the Canadian immigrants.
Personally I love the USA, I hate its politics, religious or otherwise. I hate the party system.
And I'd be happy to be the first to put a bullet into the Osama Bin Ladens, Saddams, David dukes, michael jacksons, Rev. boy lovers, or any other radical person haters out there who has NO respect for the people in this world.
I'm not the President of the United States of America. I don't have the authority, knowledge, wisdom, or nuts to to run this country. George W. Bush, certainly is not the best president that we have ever had but he is OUR GOD DAMN MOTHER FUCKING LEADER, SO LISTEN WITH A LITTLE BIT OF DIGNITY TO WHAT HE SAYS. Stop criticizing his grammar. This is life not usenet. Stop complaining about his policy's. Its easy to talk the talk but who here has run the USA? Who here has seen whats on the books? Who here can be president? Deeds not words. Now get back to work before china becomes more productive than the US and takes over the world.
There isn't any discussion of politics as they relate to people. Whenever I bring up politics here (Texas) it is immediately met with, "I hate politics", "politicians are corrupt", "let's talk football".
This disinterest in politics ensures that the voter is informed by rumor, innuendo, and electoral noise. People still believe we found WMDs in Iraq, Al-Qaida and Saddam kicked it at his palace, and poor people are poor because they are lazy. It is no wonder that Americans are left with Abortion and Gay Marriage, the two most unimportant topics, as major campaign issues.
Bush is the worst president in the last 50 years. This is widely accepted
That's a novel definition of "wide."
One could argue that a poll could be taken to determine just how widely such an opinion is held. Oh wait, we just did. 51% of the country disagrees with your statement.
While Bush certainly isn't the best person in the country to be president, apparently most people thought he was the best one of the people offered. I don't buy the argument that people are misguided, vote blindly, or didn't hear the opposing message. I think the Democratic party got out its message better than it ever has before. Consider Moveon.org, Fahrenheit 9/11, Bruce Springsteen. People heard the message and decided that they wanted someone other than Kerry.
I'm a strong conservative, one of those vilified people here on slashdot. But I hate it when I hear my conservative friends lump all people left of center as "evil" or "stupid" or "dishonest." Both sides have had their fair share of moments that they shouldn't be very proud of.
The blind hate needs to stop. On both sides.
In the interests of trying to heal the divisions of this country, I think all of us (me included) need to try and remember to view those on the "other side," those who voted other than we did, as intelligent people, as people who are worthy to listen to. I couldn't stand Kerry. I was very happy to see him concede the election. But I have to respect that he is doing, and has been doing, what he believes is right for his country. And that's very honorable and worthy of my respect, even if I disagree with his actions and positions.
I want to elaborate on this point for a minute. Where I work we have a number of people who spend a period of time in Washington, D.C., interacting with congresscritters and other Legislative and Executive staffers. After their stint there (1-2 years), they come back here. Every person I've ever talked to who has worked in Washington has said that they now have a different view of the people who work at that level of government. That every single person, agree with them or not, takes their job seriously and does what they believe is right for the good of the country. That's important. That says that the people we elect, and the people who help them, really are trying to be honest with us, trying to do their best to make this country strong.
We need to respect that sentiment.
This is a good argument for changing how a president is elected. For a good read, see...
For another good read, see this article.
Since the next President is going to appoint at least two Supreme Court justices, and the Republicans have strengthened their grip on the legislature, it's not a very long step to "tyrant with supreme authority". It's certainly to the level of "able to destroy a large number of the freedoms we used to enjoy".
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
And its no accident that the most liberal areas are cities, where these people see first hand the poverty and crime, where people are most likely to come in contact with a homosexual or an Arab-American citizen or a non-protestant, vote in favor of the democrats.. This is where everything falls apart. In the racially and religiously exclusive towns and suburbs, people don't see the problems that exist and so they think everything's alright.
In you and your multi-degree-bearing friends' cases, perhaps you're planning to be rich some day, and keeping some of that money (which doesn't amount to much if you're poor) is of larger concern. These are your interests and its ok with me, but when your interests support things like poverty, universality of a single religion, and policies which impose on the freedom of others to choose between their own definitions of good and evil and in turn are tied to the support of big businesses and 'keeping honest workers down' then it starts to get a little irritating.
As far as the ex-loggers, I think we need to think about the future and predict how many trees we can afford to cut down yada yada yada. This would be based on science, which I know Republicans tend to reject. And I think the gov't would do well to find other professions or forests for these ex-loggers (would you count on Bush to do this?).
They're not saying to exclude evolution, so you, by EXCLUDING a theory about unrecorded history are promoting ignorance. As soon as you can explain all the holes in evolution (and if you don't think they are both present and significant, you're more ignorant than we thought) I'll explain the holes in creationism.
Carbon dating (you believe in that, don't you?) blows the Biblical creation story out of the water. As such, I don't think it should be taught as science in America's schools. The theory of evolution is the leading scientific explanation of the origin of life -- following the scientific method, and not the it-was-written-by-a-prophet method.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
And they are telling me that believing the bullshit that Timmy down the hall in your dorm tells you is a bad idea.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
Is anyone else out there bothered by the fact that technically, because of the use of electronic voting machines and paperless ballots, there is no way to prove that Bush actually won the election?
Oh, sure, you can argue that we wouldn't know if Kerry won either, but still, either way, doesn't that bother anyone else?
"yet the last thing a Christian wants to do is force his religion on someone else"
I find that the more religious someone is the harder time they have seeing the way religion is overtaking our country.
You don't see banning abortion/gay marriage etc. as a problem because it fits right into your beliefs.
Never has the separation between Church and State been more blurred.
Every major decision our current administration makes seems to be founded in religion. From Bush saying he believes he is doing the Lords work in Iraq(VERY, VERY SCARY) to banning gay marriage.
If the last thing a Christian wants to do is force his religion on someone else, then who or what is in the White House?
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I didn't vote for Mr. Bush and I was disappointed that he won (Nader supporter). I think the biggest problem that the democrats have is that their socially liberal message is not attractive to a majority of US citizens. Someone once said (I forget who), that outside of the coasts, USA is as religious as India and I think this election is good evidence of this tendency. I'm not saying that being pro-gay and pro-abortion aren't noble goals. Unfortunately, these items are hot button issues with a lot of people in the crucial swing states. You see those deeply crimson counties in Ohio? Those are the anti-gay, anti-abortion people coming out to prevent the further advancement of those agendas.
I don't think that Bush's victory is a total doom and gloom scenario. First, I think his re-election sends the right message to the islamic terrorists that USA is steadfast in the pursuit of our goals. This message will most quickly get us out of Iraq under acceptable terms.
Second, I believe Mr. Bush now understands the consequences of military action and will be much less likely to get involved in any other foreign adventures. Notwithstanding Bush's state of mind, the army doesn't have the manpower to do anything other than Iraq for remainder of Bush's presidency.
Third, I think that the neo cons at the DOD have been discredited by the Iraq ordeal. This means that Collin Powel and the state department are ascendant. They are more internationalist and more likely to work with allies and the UN. I'm betting that the army is going to get expanded and more troops sent to Iraq. This will be a direct rebuke to Mr. Rumsfeld, whose hi-tech warfare mantra is one of the major reasons that invasion and occupation were attempted without sufficient forces in the first place.
So despite the horrible record of the first term, I think things will be better in the second.
Now what we really should be afraid of is that rising interest rates which will pop our real estate bubble. Unfortunately this was going to be a problem no matter who won the election.
I never rant like this. And I'm going to use some harsh words, so those who do not wish to be subjected to my rantings need not read further. But, if you want to know why a pissed off New Yorker feels completely alienated from the "red" states, read on. I've tried to make my rant as entertaining as possible, and hope a couple people will at least glean some fun from it.
I can not believe that Americans were stupid enough to vote for this guy not only once, but TWICE. WTF, people?It boils down, in my mind, to a great quote from a some nameless NASCAR meathead driver when interviewed about who'd he'd vote for:
"I'll vote for Bush because I ain't much on the issues but I know I'll get a firm hand shake from him. A man's hand shake."
Dear god. I'm not kidding. This idiot said that. I'm sorry, but you should have to demonstrate a basic understanding of the issues to vote, and/or have an IQ above 90. If you THEN decide to vote for a dolt like Bush I will at least consider your vote valid. Sure, you'd be voting for a polar opposite ideology from mine, but at least it'd be informed.
I suggest sterilizing this man and his offspring so we're not subjected to this kind of blindingly ignorant crap again. The people who swung the vote were, in majority, people who voted on party lines based on very superficial terms. I wish we had a way to throw their votes out the window.
And while I'm on a ridiculous rant (admittedly), why don't we cover the fact that this a-hole president sent us to war on false pretense and 51% of the country finds that acceptible. Because, I just LOVE it when some ass from Wisconsin says they're going to vote for the president that will keep us SAFER when he's the one that got us attacked in the first place and my apartment was 20 blocks away. I think New York's electoral votes should have counted DOUBLE for this election just because of that. No, it's not fair... but neither was the fact that I saw the twin towers fall with my own eyes. The grain silo down the road from you ain't gonna attract the bombs. And this is coming from a person who grew up in the country and had great respect for rural america. I'm not condeming it. It's just simply not the target of terrorism.
I saw the interviews in exit polls and saw people voting for the "president that will keep us safer." Um, where are the terrorists bombing again? Wisconsin? Nope. Kansas? Wrong again. Ohio? Nope.... f***ing NEW YORK!!! My back yard, dip shit! Not yours. So the next time a president wins a popular vote in part of whole based on the premise that he's making the country safer, let's give him the boot in the ass he deserves. The people who voted for Bush, especially those in a "red" state, are NOT IN ANY DANGER, and they can bite me. The only places attacked... NYC and Washington DC voted 80% Kerry and 90% Kerry, respectively. That's right. The guy that will keep us safer managed an average 15% of the vote in the only 2 places attacked.
Now I'd like to cover the list of stupid things Bush has done, and will continue to do. The reasons why I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR A CONSERVATIVE PRESIDENT LIKE BUSH:
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
I hope you don't get sick anytime soon, or you might have to wait 12+ months to see a doctor. Either that or come down to the best country in the world. America said they didn't want your disastrous health care system and they didn't want a friggen Trial Lawyer in the whitehouse(he would actually have his own place, but you knwo what I mean). It's the trial lawyers fault for the unbelievable rise in liability insurance.
Just go cry in a the corner and let us deal with our own country.
Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"
That aside, I think that there were a number of fubar events by the Kerry campaign. If we can figure out what went wrong this time, maybe we can fix it next time. Note that I live in Southern California, and thus wasn't subjected to 15 political bullshit sessions an hour on TV (thank God). However, I think that Kerry screwed up on:
There are a handful of other things he could have done too, but I doubt they would have helped much. He could have tried to explain that trying to smash terrorist countries won't help, that you have to erode their base of support (*cough*Israel-Palestine*cough*) by addressing their 'issue', but I doubt that the average idiot would have understood, and Bush would have spun it was "Weak on terror!" in a microsecond. Another possible thing to go after would have been fiscal conservatives, on the basis that Bush took the largest surplus in history and turned it into a deficit that's growing at Warp 9. Didn't hear much on that either.
On the rather more negative side, he could have (long before 11/2) made a huge stink about e-voting paper trails. Beat the Diebold CEO horse ("Deliver Ohio's electoral votes to the President" sound familiar?) like Bush beat the flip-flop horse. In short, cast the legitimacy of e-voting precincts that went to Bush in doubt [One previous poster (unconfirmed) says that the exit polls and tallies were different by 5%+ for Bush in counties with paperless e-voting machines but not in those without or with paper trail. Can anyone confirm?].
I also feel that this election underscores a desperate need for election law reform in America. Why the HELL does a car commercial need to be more truthful that the campaign to decide who will be the most powerful man on earth? Of all the (thank God relatively few) political ads I saw, almost none of them offered anything positive about thier guy. All they did was slander the other guy's character.
Another thing that has to go is the goddamn electoral college. It does not execute the will of the people, as was demonstrated very clearly in 2000. Indeed, without the E.C. I wouldn't be writing an essay about how Kerry lost to Bush. Because of it's inclusion of Senators in the count, it gives a substantially inflated amount of influence to rural states (The vote of someone in Montana or Alaska is worth almost twice
Youre right, just a little behind. There are not so many allies left to alienate (and yes, I forgot Poland) and the world watches its sole remaining super power`s failure live on TV every day. Add the threats the bushites emit on a daily basis to the danger the US deficit represents to world economy (and the unability of the US to sustain itself as the underlying econosocial reason): the US is a main source of instability now, instead of its guarantor. A change that took less than four years, creating enough reasons for about every nation on earth too rethink its position towards the US - its way more than mere antipathy. I wouldnt be surprised to see NATO (which is already irrelevant as a military alliance, as it is designed as a defensive alliance) fall apart soon. Of course that would mean nothing less than closer european-russian bounds... Bush may succeed, where Hitler and Stalin failed: in creating an eurasian powersphere from atlantic to pacific. They are a perfect match, from whatever side you look at it and all it may take is a perceived common threat. I dont think the average american has any idea how big a failure Bushs foreign policy is: nations tend to act based on their interests (an arguement usually brought on in excuse of Bush, so Ill hold the Bushites to that) - the art of diplomacy is to modify inconsistent interests of other nations, so they blend with your own. Instead he actively created interests that are contradictory to his goals. Given the stubborness demonstrated, hell continue on this path. Project for a new american century, well, there it goes down the sink.
Should have listened to europeans like this french guy. Its the same guy who correctly predicted the fall of the Soviet Union a decade before it happened.
Life has become the ideology of its absence - T.W. Adorno
Then why is everyone here depressed? Why are studies showing that depression is far worse in the US than elsewhere? And why is everyone here working non-stop? Why do Europeans get 3 weeks of vacation out of the year?
Obesity doesn't correlate to prosperity. Obesity correlates to eating too much fat. People in other countries have easy access to food, they just exercise self-control and have healthy eating habits.
Not sure what you are referring to.
Not willing to stand up to murderers
The murderers who had South American presidents assasinated? The people who financed Mr Bin Laden in Afghanistan?
Making others pay for your mistakes
Not sure what you are saying...
Trying to legitimize abnormal behaviors
If you mean by "abnormal" anything that you don't do, then you are not really saying much. If "abnormal" means what only a small group does, then parachuting would qualify as abnormal.
If you mean anal sex, then there are lots of hetrosexual people that do that. Do you mean oral sex?
Presumably you mean gay sex. Oh well, I suppose we'll just have to disagree as to whether that is bad or not. I don't mind if people do it, so long as they aren't in abusive relationships. I try not to have images of it much, but if it keeps people happy, and they aren't hurting anyone...
Valuing vegetation higher than human life
You need vegetation to survive. How much of it do you need? Do you think we need none (presumably not). Where would you draw the line and say "we've probably cut down enough trees". When they only cover 1% of the land mass? 10%? I suspect you'll agree that we need some, perhaps you debate the %?
Stealing wealth from the successful and giving it to the wasteful
Some people are wasteful with welfare. I would hope that the welfare that is handed out is given on a truly needs basis. Would you ever consider anyone to be worthy of welfare?
Do you really really think there would be a significant difference between Kerry and Bush in real life? Isn't it obvious that there could be small adjustments here and there but the overall course of American policy has to remain the same since US interests and world challenges don't depend on who's in the White House.
Anyway - a word of advice from the distance (which gives some prospective). Democrats - cool down, this is not the end of the world as you know it. Republicans - rejoice, you won so you can have some celebration but don't stump too hard on the other side.
But both sides - remember, you are all Americans, you live in one country and would have to work with each other no matter how this or that election turns out. Too much wounded hopes on one side and too much triumphalism on the other lead to too much hate. And hate is not good for anyone.
You know, one of the biggest arguements against Bush is his actions in Iraq and with the UN, but realistically speaking, would Kerry have done much different? I never see anybody comparing what could have been done differently with any realistic ideas.
Sure people claim going into war (both "on Terrorism" and in Iraq) was wrong, but what could have been done differently?
Yeah, Bush may of alienated a good portion of the UN when they refused aid, but did anyone happen to notice the UN didn't speak up until after the worst was over? I'm not going to claim Bush couldn't have been a bit more diplomatic, but does that excuse the UN from staying quite when it counted, and then opposing the US when it seemed safe to do so?
And with all the acts on the home front, again, would Kerry have done something else? We're not partial to the information the President has, it's very possible that Kerry would have reacted in the same manner dependent upon the intelligence reports he got.