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USPS Service Kiosks Taking Pictures of Customers
NW writes "According to FOIA documents obtained by EPIC new Postal Service self-service postage machines take portrait-style photographs of customers and retain them for 30 days." IBM is the contractor behind the kiosks. Note that the kiosk is supposed to not complete the transaction if it determines the photograph has been compromised, so simply covering the camera is unlikely to work. As the cost of cameras and digital storage approaches zero, is it inevitable that every machine you interact with will take your photograph and store it?
How about wearing GWB rubber mask? or even Nixon for that matter.
Return of the ex-presidents.
This is not the sig you are looking for...
Now let's all overreact as if there aren't cameras watching you in almost every store these days.
So does this mean that a paper bag over the head is not just for sex anymore?
People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
A privacy issue my g/f will care about. She hates having her photo taken!
with one of those big ass Barbie(tm) Heads. Or better yet - a Barbie head with a Bin Ladin mask...
Catch the criminals from fradulent ebay sellers to anthrax package hoaxers.
I mean, think of all those terrorists that are sending massive shipments of weapons and chemicals via USPS kiosks.
"Lemme see, here. 200 pound, 6'x6' box, so I'll need about $300 in stamps..."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Clearly this is simply because USPS wants to make their own version of hotornot
It's to catch the terrorists, you see. We'll never violate your privacy (because you have none now).
The stamps were printed with my portrait on them.
What is the point of this? I mean really, who is going to try to knock over a stamp machine. It's not exactly an ATM.
... to workers going postal: shooting the automated kiosks...
Our new surveillance overlords...
If it can prevent crimes/terrorism, or at give the authorities a clue on who did sent what, i dont have a problem about getting my picture take.. Its already on dozens of other surveillance videos, and I havent seen people complaining about that..
I think the 30 day storage timeframe is pretty optimistic.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Big brother is watching, and to make things worse he's storing all his data on windows -.-
I certainly hope they're going to be putting extra hardening on those machines...
Don't take the above poster too seriously. He doesn't.
No, but as michael keeps posting paranoid left-wing drivel as commentary to each story to the front page of slashdot, it's inevitable that I and a lot of other people will stop reading it.
Why can't I just send a fucking package without having my picture taken especially without the kiosk having a 5'x5' sign in blinking neon that it is doing so?
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient without having the Post Office opening the packaging thinking it is a bomb because of the way I look.
This is a good idea. Any "honest" type wouldn't mind. Especially since if you are at the ATM and the robber types know they would get there mug shots while in the act of crime, they might just leave you alone.
So say "cheese" next time your infront of the machine and for gods sake keep the zipper up and the shirt on.
I am very interested in why people would be trying to figure out how to defeat this setup. It seems like the only people who would need to not be photographed are going to be causing trouble. There should be no expectation of privacy when you're in public mailing something.
THIS ACCOUNT IS OFFICIALLY RETIRED/RETARDED.
I don't know how anyone could claim that this is a necessary invasion of privacy. Taking pictures of us while we're sending mail? How often is the mail used in incidents of terrorism? Definitely not often enough to warrant photographing anyone who tries to send a package, and making it so that the machine doesn't work if you won't let your picture be properly taken.
Say your branch IS used for terrorist activities. Say a mail bomb, or anthrax threat. You can bet that if you're an arab you're going to be getting a visit from the FBI.
of counsiling anyone who has to look at these pictures and realize how ugly we all are? Who hear goes to the post office dressed for success? Who? Tell me? I see that hand in the back row, thank you sir. The horror. The horror.
When you use these machines, you no longer have to wait in line and goto the counter to mail anything that weighs over 16oz; you can mail items up to 70lbs without ever having to see a postal clerk. I suspect its to keep people from mailing things that they shouldn't.
Someone who looks like you purchased stamps!.
I'm a huge privacy advocate and all, but it's not like this can be put to some nefarious use. The only two potential issues I can see:
The first is a policy matter, and writing to the appropriate Congresscritters and your local Postmaster will likely go a long way toward ensuring such a notice exists. The second is a matter of inconvenience, but since stamps are still available from third-party vendors and USPS counters, it shouldn't be a big issue.
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
you're buying postage stamps and they want to photograph you??? wtf for??? are they frightened you might be posting anthrax spores to someone and want to be able to track everyone who bought postage stamps in the last few day??? or you're posting drugs to someone??? or posting unsolicited bulk mail??? is there no privacy anymore???
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Since stamps are readily convertible into cash at face value or near, I would expect similar protection on stamp machines as I would for cash machines...
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Everyone gets robbed sometime, so we shouldn't complain about it. Especially when the electric company won't keep our power on, if they can't steal something when they drop by to read the meter.
--
make install -not war
of me picking my nose.
Wanna keep some shred of privacy while purchasing you postage for your parcel, and have a good time doing it? Wear a mask! Preferrably one of a long-dead celebrity. Favorites include:
Herbert Hoover (cross-dressing spy)
Stalin (All-around nice guy)
Benjamin Franklin (First Postmaster General of the US)
"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
all ATM's have cameras that constantly record the user using the ATM. what is the difference between the two?
At my local main post office downtown, the workers like to stand by the machine and "help" the hapless public that apparently cannot use a self-service kiosk by itself. Thus, this machine in particular must have thousands of portraits of the post office staff.
How about just going to the front desk and asking for stamps? Or go to a packaging store and ask for stamps? As for 'storing every persons photo in every self service machine' that souunds a little extreme (it would be a bitch to manage), and if you really dont want to deal with having you picture taken everywhere, use the internet to purchase all the stuff you need.
Now I have to pull my tinfoil hat down over my whole face!
Could someone please explain why the government feels the need to have pictures of people on file like this? This is crazy.
I'm reminded of Aldous Huxley's 1984. This is the first step toward telescreens!
As tech savvy people, we need to get the word out about this and put these sorts of invasions of privacy to a stop. Making the citizen the object of state knowledge is the first step toward subjugation and elimination of freedom.
As an open source programmer, gun owner, and opponent of the current political order, I see this as a direct attack on my civil liberties that must be dealt with at once. The government has already tried to take our constitutionally protected rights to bear arms. Give them a couple years and Microsoft will be using their own private telescreens to weed out dissident hackers and sending them to "reprogramming camps" in the Carribean.
Well, I'll pass on the rum drink thank you! Get out there and stop these fascists!
A Proud Member of the Reality Oriented Community.
First, this is frighteningly similar to something out of 1984. It IS a violation of our rights to force us to have our picture taken to complete a transaction. (Everyone is free to disagree here.) All I should need to buy something is cash in hand.
Second, David Brin's books, Kiln People and Earth demonstrate a future where such surveilance is commonplace. They are suppose to be the future and I thought they were well off in the future (though Dr. Brin probably did not) but it appears I was wrong.
On the other hand, maybe he'll attract groupies in tinfoil hats. I've used that machine - and I think it's great. I had no idea it had a camera though....
I hate the 9 to 5 world - I need to send packages out for my side job, and now I dont have to piss my day job boss off to do it. Just have to find a ski mask now...
remember when it was {of|for|by} the people?
I'm unsure how I feel about this. On one hand, I value my privacy, and I dislike such intrusions.
On the other hand, I value the freedom of public places, and the freedom to take pictures of whatever you wish.
It boils down to an argument I had with a friend of mine a while back. We were in a public place, and a third party took a picture of him. He became furious, and demanded that the person take no more picture, nor distribute the one he had already taken. (The third party was not known to either of us; he wasn't just some stranger)
Now, I calmly explained to my friend that, since he was in a public place, he had no reasonable expectation of privacy, and that the other person could indeed take his picture whether he liked it or not. I cited prior cases and current laws regarding such things. (I'd recently done research for a class on just that topic.)
He became even more angry. "I don't care about his rights. He has a right to be an asshole, but that doesn't mean he should be! I don't want my picture taken!"
The guy took his picture again for good measure (nice shot of an angry face), and we all walked away chuckling.
To further muddy the waters, consider that digital photography, like p2p applications and globalization, is fast-growing and un-stoppable. There's no magical way to prevent someone from taking your picture. In the end, your picture can be taken whether you like it or not, and there's nothing you can do about it.
I don't believe that people have a right to privacy, but I do believe that people have a right to protect their privacy as best they can within the confines of reasonable law.
My friend, for example, could avoid public places and close his curtains, but he could not assault photographers.
Public places are just that: public. Whether you like it or not, people can see and record your actions.
Then again, this isn't just a person: it's a government entity. Should corporations/governments have the same rights as individual people? What if this were a private company, instead of the USPS? Would that make the issue any different?
What if it was just some guy standing near USPS boxes taking pictures of people?
It's a complicated issue with no simple answers.
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Nothing to see here
and don't forget to hold up signs by your face that say, "I see you too buddy!"
Just a boy doing unproffesional IT work that's way above his head.
Good point. Because lord knows regular folks can't distinguish one dirty hippy from another. ;)
Oh, it's time to stop, I'm saying mean things.
If you are going to break in, you will just cover the camera. The value of things bought from the kiosk can't be that much. And the hope of catching a mailer of pipe bomb or laced letter must be nil. People are sending laced letters because it is the only thing you can put in an anonymous letter box.
This is worse than not allowing men to wear hats in a bank. Is every women in a shawl going to be a suspect. Is every man in a large coat going to be arrested. Next thing you know they are going to deman that everyone must be topless to buy a stamp. That would make the sicko government officials happpy. Fratboys in every level of government, a keg party on the capital.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Do you cry everytime you go to an ATM too or do you just avoid going outside at all for fear that the evil picture monsters will get your soul?
OK. So explain to me how this is left wing drivel? I mean, the Right are the people who historically are interested in less government interference in the lives of normal people. It's the guys on the left with their bigger government/control everything mentality who should be happy about this.
So isn't this then technically right wing drivel?
People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
Even if you stand in line at a post office, there is a camera trained right on your face at the counter. This happens at practically every bank and government institute already. Nothing new here except a new tool for law enforcement.
Of course if you're into mail fraud or anthrax then this just might affect you, sorry.
I am supposed to tolerate something just because it's already been done? Thanks but no thanks. Just because we have been taught that we have no privacy in public doesn't mean we should have cameras trained on us at every turn.
Soon the cameras will be inside your house but it will be ok because they are everywhere else.
Wow, the terrorists would never think to use a FedEx drop-box instead. I'm sure glad to live in a country that is doing such smart things to keep me safe.
If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers
As the cost of cameras and digital storage approaches zero, is it inevitable that every machine you interact with will take your photograph and store it?
Yes, it is inevitable. Dammit.
Thank God the cost of anal probes and specimen storage is not approaching zero.
- kgj
-kgj
Come on, you knew it was happening. Remember the last time you were about to buy stamps from the machine and suddenly that guy ran out, combed your hair, then set up a big prop picture of a bookshelf filled with books behind you?
I think George Orwell was the 20th century Nostradamus.
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
As far as the ATM example goes, that's different. We know that the ATM is taking pictures to protect us. It's the bank's security system implemented on our behalf. It means if someone steals our card and uses it, there's a greater chance of catching the culprit.
The Post Office situation is a little bit wierd. We've never had a system that guarantees a picture of the sender will be associated with a particular bit of mail, still more that the sender would be unaware of this. It has implications, good and bad. It's a little disconcerting the implementers were so secretive about it that it required a FOIA request to get the information.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
If so that will be cool, just like on rollercoasters. People will get to see the reaction on their face they get from buying stamps to the extreme.
God spoke to me.
No, don't you realize that it's left-wing drivel because the poster fancies himself as some sort of paragon of right-wing virtue and, since he disagrees with something he seems to have read into the commentary, it must be left-wing drivel.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
What about religious head coverings? Will people be refused this servuice because of burkas?
What's the point of photographing the people who buy stamps? It's not like, when a stamp is used to commit a crime, you can track it back to the photo by serial number. Unless...
Anyone taken a very close look at a stamp recently?
The robotic USPS employees with cameras embedded in their eye sockets have been taking your picture for years.
Read any good sonnets lately?
than people realize.
If you have one of those shopping cards, they can track your purchases. If you travel, you're photographed at every point, especially in Europe. If you buy stamps, your photographed. Welcome to the US police state. Orwell may have written fiction, but damn if it isn't coming to fruition.
I voted for Bush, but I have since had many second thoughts on why I did. I have voted Republican since I was 18, thinking that voting for lowering my taxes, having a small government, etc. would be beneficial. Bush is now performing a power grab unlike anything in history, US or foreign. It's scary as hell.
On a side note, I know a guy that works for a major East Coast ISP. He tells me that during the course of his working there over the last several years, that it is becoming more commonplace for employers doing background checks on potential employers to contact ISPs and request surfing logs . Believe it or not. So now, in addition to having employers run a credit check, they are now delving into what you may be surfing to see if you are trustworthy in their eyes. Sick and invasive. I can understand this if one is going through a securit clearance, but to work in the average job?
Wow... I need to buy my own private island.
I'm on the left and I don't like it. The left-right spectrum is kinda broken in a lot of ways. We have left-wingers like myself who support universal health care but think this idea is invasion of privacy just like I think preventing two people to marry no matter their sex is an invasion of privacy. It's not as simple as left-right anymore (if it ever was).
Well this should really cut down on the amount of spam mail.
Why not sell the picture while you're at it? I'd gladly give up one of Sacagawea dollar coings from my change!
You only use 2% of your DNA
Stand at attention, maggot!
On one hand, I value my privacy, and I dislike such intrusions.
Oh, we know what's in your hand, boo-boo, when you're in private. No need to clarify, Sparky. Now get on those knees and give me twenty!
It's a complicated issue with no simple answers.
Hah! Typical! We can't ba having this sort of mamby-pamby, nancy-boy, wibbly-wobbly, clap-trap, hoo-hah here, toots! Youse either for it or agains'it. This is Slashdot! Global repository of supergeniuses like "gamerdood69" and "spoogloriousspoo193" and "wileycoyoteesq"! No mistakes are made here! You will bow to the monochromatic wisdom!
So get your wet panties out of their twist, girlie, and pick your side.
--- Ban humanity.
Has there been a run of stamp-machines getting broken into? All of the stamp-machines locally are in post offices, which have video cameras in every corner anyway.
For that matter, is this a real privacy issue? Considering that you can buy stamps online, in your local hallmark store, or even through the mail to a P.O. box, I'm not too concerned about the post office taking my picture.
Now if they start putting cameras on the soda machines, then I'll get upset. And I won't even bring up the condom dispenser question...
Oops. Too Late.
In case you didn't know/realize it, ATMs (Automated Teller Machines) have been taking your picture for over 20 years...
The retention times for those pictures vary with the institution, but it could conceivably be years...
I worked for Diebold back in the 80s and on an almost weekly basis I was tasked with operating the video gear for bank security and FBI investigators...
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
I don't have a face!
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient without having the Post Office opening the packaging thinking it is a bomb because of the way I look.
You forgot to send batteries too you bastard!
The First Amendment doesn't prevent the government from doing things that are against the religion of any individual, it prohibits the government from compelling or prohibiting an individual to do or from doing something against or required by their religion (usually). To restrict government action to that subset of actions consistent with all religions would be a de facto establishment of those religions' views as laws on par with the Constitution. This is not only contrary to the First Amendment, I think it would be abhorrent to most people of faith, not to mention those of reason.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
That said, this does not seem to tbe point of such photo taking, as 30 days is probably an unreasonably short time to hold the photos for such purposes.
Can't believe I wasted my mod points on a story before this one.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
The kiosks in question aren't stamp machines (which have been around for 40 years or more), but a complete self-service post office. You can buy postage, mail letters, mail small packages, etc. It takes credit cards, paper currency and coins.
In other words, it *is* a lot like an ATM.
Damn it! Is there no place left where a loving couple can make out and not have to worry about showing up on www.hotpostallove.com? Seriously though, not surprised. It even makes sense on some level. There is not an actual person that sees you shipping a package so the next best thing is a camera that does. Say the Unabomber breaks out of jail, now we can be sure there is always a witness.
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient
If you'd want to try an international destination I know this... person in Canada... eh?
Trolling is a art,
It may be paranoid but it's not "left wing". Lefties would WANT the gubmint keeping track of everything. Gee, I thought Righties were against gubmint intervention in everyone's daily life. It's funny how the modern times have completely reversed the Left/Right concept.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Ever hear of the UniBomber?
This is specifically because of him.
You used to be able to drop off a sufficently stamped parcel in any mail drop. After the UniBomber scares you were required to take packages over a certain size and/or weight into the office in person. This is simply a way to allow the conveinance of a mail drop with the security of personal delivery. A camera is already in my house (4 in fact) I controll them, no-one else.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Are they nice portraits? Soft focus and candlelight? Can I get a couple 8x10's with me in my sexiest lingerie? Can they remove the mole near my [WORD DELETED BY THE FCC]? Oh, I feel all a twitter!
--- Ban humanity.
In a way, this is an advance for privacy. Why shouldn't a private company be able to record a transaction freely entered? Because they abuse the record, sharing it, and invading privacy beyond the shared private event that they recorded. The 30 day limit is a good start - all personal information, whether required for the transaction or not, must be expired, by the end of the express transaction, or a short time later, whichever is shorter. That's the basis for the kind of copyright protection on personal info we need to enforce. UPS is within their rights to use this kind of recording to complete a secure transaction, but not if the safeguards for the info supplier are solely voluntary, inconsistent with a common practice, or without consequence when ignored. But the expiration does demonstrate to other corporations that protecting personal info rights is consistent with both security and competitive profitability.
--
make install -not war
You keep preaching it and I'll keep waiting. We'll both die first, I assure you.
Then presumably in wont affect you (a sentiment used to justify all sorts of shady things)... *assuming that you aren't reborn into the same world*... Karma is funny like that.
What would the camera's response be to you holding a placard that's a photo of another person in front of you? How would it know it was compromised? And how hard would it be to set up a webcam to mimic the setup so you could even present a photo that looked like a correct perspective of that location.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Close, lefties want the gov't keeping track of businesses and righties want laissez faire while lefties want the gov't out of personal matters and righties want the gov't to tell me what sexual positions are okay and when and where I have the freedom to be free from gov't imposed religion, etc. It's all about what kind of intervention you're talking about.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
whackos. Etc, etc, etc.
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I worked on the software (the retail bit of it, not the bit that takes photographs - when I was on the project, that bit wasn't even there) for this piece of kit.
We had some great fun with the coin machine. We had bags of coins plus the coin/bill acceptor for testing. When work had been going on too long, I used to like emptying the acceptor of everything but pennies, then buying a 1c stamp with a $20 bill. The thing went off like a machine gun firing out pennies, it was friggin' cool.
It also did a bit of a Las Vegas style jackpot dispense with all of them full - in change it could give (IIRC, it was 1998 when I worked on the software for the pilot) quarters, nickels, pennies and Susan B dollars. (It didn't dispense dimes. I was told because dime dispensing is unreliable, and the machine tended to choke on them). Again, 1c stamp with a $20 bill, and Ker-ching - it simultaneously fired coins from all four coin stores.
At least I worked out what to do with surfeit pennies - instead of keeping them in a jar or bagging them up and paying one of those machines to count them, you can spend 1c coins in the postal vending machines (or could when I was working on them). Great way of getting rid of your shrapnel.
BTW: Whenever you take a package to a post office, if it's got IBM kit, you're using my code. I wrote the scale driver (amongst other things).
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
The left generally keeps out of people's private lives, but has a record of getting more involved in limiting the rights of organizations - businesses, etc. The right generally does have a record of interfering in people's private lives, proposing laws on sex, on what you do with your bodies, proposing funding for imposing a set of beliefs on people, etc, but is more liberal when it comes to the rights of organizations (except trade unions, they *hate* trade unions.)
When the left talks about systems to enlarge government, it tends to do so about replacing corrupt private groups with accountable public bodies (it may be flawed in doing so, but that's the mentality), rarely about making individuals change their private behaviour. When the right talks about systems to enlarge government, it tends to talk about more draconian penalties for breaking laws, about passing morality laws, and about making security more intrusive and bureaucratic.
When most on the left talk about reducing government, they talk about giving individuals rights. When the right in America talks about reducing government, they usually talk about giving regional bodies such as the States more rights, simply transfering rights from one government to another, in some cases giving those governments more extreme rights than the national government had. The perfect government for a left winger provides social security (pensions, welfare, possibly healthcare), a public, accountable, infrastructure, and some semblance of security and law and order, on a national or international level. The perfect government for the right provides military security on a national level, and draconian neo-fascist religion-imposing governments on a State level. I know which I'd prefer.
And yes, I'm aware there are those on the left who occasionally stray in to the territory of the right, but there equal numbers who do vice versa.
Always amuses me to hear right wingers pretend to be "pro-liberty". Kind of like the Confederate States didn't go to war over slavery, oh no, they were "pro-States Rights". No they *@$%ing weren't, they were panicing because a law they'd imposed on free states forcing free states to return escaped slaves was about to be overturned, a probable harbringer for an eventual end to slavery. What the hell was "pro-States Rights" about that?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Based upon the actual article, it appears that the system is designed to accept credit/debit cards. When you go to an ATM to use your card, the system automatically takes your picture as part of a fraud prevention system. These new terminals basically do the same thing (it's also worth noting that they do this even on stamp purchases, where they won't have any information about how the stamps are used, just who used the credit card).
Of course, you start electing politicians that want intervention at various levels on both sides, you get the worst of both worlds: Intervention everywhere.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Word. Peace.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
On the day of Smith's execution, the person who gave Smith $20 and a bottle of Thunderbird to send the package laughs a slow, evil laugh and heaves a sigh of relief.
The end. And everyone lived happily ever after &c. The solution to this problem is improved scanning of cargo to be loaded onto planes, not a wholesale violation of civil liberties. Either that or accept that having a free and open society has its dangers and consider those dangers as the price of a better quality of life.
-b.
Just wear a trenchcoat to cover your body and stockings to cover your face :-D
What could go wrong?
Get paid to code OSS
I completely agree. Trying to quantify a political leaning on a one dimensional scale is fundamentally flawed. There is far more to politics than simply left-right. I particularly like the system used at politicalcompass.org.
Santa's suicide mission go!
So put your tinfoil hat on, print your label & postage online, then drop your package off at the post office, or schedule a pickup from their website.
Really, if it freaks you out to know that they take your picture and can match it with your address, simply remove that possibility from the equation!
The unsig!
Insufficient human checking of the stamps. You could put all sorts of stuff on those stamps...
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Please keep in mind:
1984 is NOT a HOW-TO!
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
If IBM was the contractor:
A) it doesn't work
B) its probably not finished yet
C) it cost so much it will be scrapped at the next budget meeting.
I can't even count the number of projects I've seen bungled by IBM Global Services.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin
:(){
The "I'm an honest person so, I don't care" argument is very old and most analogies, such as yours, are lost on such people. The best analogy I have heard so far is much simpler.
Ask them how they would feel if they were sitting in a restaurant and someone at the next table was staring directly at them the entire time. Most people find this very disconcerting and sometimes react with great hostility. That is how I feel when someone, the government or otherwise, is constantly recording my activities no matter where I go. I don't have to be hiding something to not like being stared at.
When presented with this scenario, most people begin to understand and are less likely to present the "I'm an honest person" retort.
The kiosk at my local post office is clearly labeled that pictures are being taken. Contrast that to the "black balls" you see hanging from the ceiling at most retail stores now.
There is a clear distinction between public and private space. In public, the government can put up cameras because it is a public space and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. In private space, only the property owner or a person designated by the owner can put up a camera. They are well within their rights to do this, provided they don't put a camera in an area where an individual would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as a restroom stall. The police cannot put a camera in a private space, or aim a camera into a private space, without a warrant. I realize you value your privacy, but keep in mind that public places are by definition not private, and that the government won't be putting cameras in private spaces anytime soon, as it would pretty much require the constitution to be gutted first.
...that ATM cameras are there for the CUSTOMER's protection (and the money, of course). If a robber takes your card, or forces you to use it at knifepoint, the bank gets a picture of them. Like a steering wheel club, it's a simple deterrence system. Furthermore, ATM cameras aren't much of a privacy invasion, because the bank already knows who you are the moment you insert the card.
Last time I checked, no one was being held up at stamp machines. The only purpose is so the government can track who is using the mail.
Get it?
Moderate me down all you want, but if you can honestly say and I havent seen people complaining about that. than you're a moron who just hasn't been paying attention. I guess this is the new lie of the "uber-big brother" set, claim that no one cared what you did before to try to excuse further erosion of privacy, as well as labeling anyone who tries to protect their privacy as a kook or a terrorist.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
You must not have used XP. Mine's been up continuously since I bought it on Labour Day weekend.
if it's the stamp machines, or the self-serve kiosks that are imaging us. If the latter, I can see the need. Those things can be used to mail packages and can hold lots of cash, credit card info, etc. Rather like ATMs, and no one objects to those imaging us.
Best Slashdot Co
The USPS has traditionally been the place that criminals have been sought. The "Wanted" poster has just been updated and automated. No more reliance on the Postmaster or the Postal Customers to say "Hey, isn't that the guy in the poster..."
Step 1: Print 8x10 picture of goatse
Step 2: paste onto stiff posterboard, add handle.
Step 3: Cut eyehole(s) as appropriate.
Step 4: Label back "Back - toward friendly"
Step 5: Hold in front of face while using kiosk.
www.eFax.com are spammers
well not quite the same but over on Fark there is a newsday link about Caesars Atlantic City Hotel and using cameras in-appropriately..
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
Cameras are going to be one heck of a lot smaller than that. How about when every *thing* has cameras embedded in it with passive circuits that can be queried by the nearest wifi-enabled smidgen of chip logic? No way to go home.
Personally I hate it. I especially hate it if I can see the cameras, if it is there in the name of security when it isn't really, when it is some misguided fratboy marketdroid corpspeak lobbylaws that are doing this to people who just want to get on with their lives, use services paid for by their own taxes, etc.
I suspect this is mainly just to increase the number of government accessible eyes, just in case. Probably between now and 10 years from now all digital photo and video cameras in public areas will routinely go through a round of pattern matching, which will mainly catch people with evil smirks and maybe a felon or two.
But you never know, it may very well be that statistically these kiosks were positioned to take the place of a major security risk. But I doubt it, the camera was added because they could. Brin I believe suggests you cannot escape this future, and geezers with online cameras will add to the video matrix. Would it be freer if anybody could view the signal from any government camera over the net? That is even scarier to me in a way.
I was thinking there could be an easy exploit that would get middle eastern men in trouble but that is probably not even worth talking about. What frustrates me is that when I tried to explain this sort of thing to my Dad a few times his attitude was "so what, I have nothing to hide". So somewhere between his generation and mine, a lot more people are feeling marginalized and scared about surveillance. Does it make you a crook if you are doing nothing wrong but it makes you feel edgy anyway? I don't have an answer except a few observations and a proposal:
1) This is not the most effective use of your homeland security tax money. The most likely purpose is so that IBM can quietly demonstrate automated profiling of the public to the U.S. government to sell them an expensive system that ties into it seamlessly, running on a Blue Gene/L system with an interface that ought to be much sexier.
2) Other countries could do this without causing as much ruckus, but they will do it after they see it works in the U.S.
3) It would be interesting to develop an interface to surf all available video angles in a hotspot vicinity
4) Every time a surveillance system is added, it is being done by people who think it's a good idea but are very quiet about how it is used
5) Government officials tend to get tired of surveillance just like ordinary citizens cynical about the government, when the cameras are turned on them.
6) There are a lot of surveillance equipment manufacturers but there are also a lot of open source programmers, and there are way many more people working in dull jobs with an internet connection and time on their hands
7) The U.S. doesn not have a privacy law like say, Japan. It also has much more "bloodyminded" government types than say, Canada.
8) The new Japanese Prime Minister's building was recently revealed to have parallel hallways between executive offices not visible to the public hallways monitored by journalists, so as to enable bureaucrats to deny they were meeting each other.
Conclusion:
Open source community should consider making an open surveillance hardware and software system with a sexy interface, el cheapo hardware, wifi, rfid, and velcro. Solar power optional. These can be placed anywhere you like. If the cost is lower and the only tradeoff is publicity, wouldn't people go with the cheap one that is accessible online by anyone? I would not like it at all but I object to people in power having all the cards. I wouldn't mind so much probably if politicians didn't lie through their teeth all the time. More public eyes on officials might even have a small chance at a law being passed on surveillance before the cameras get way too small to consider.
The parts of government buildings that have cameras should either have the camera in plain sight or a sign saying "survellance cameras in use."
If they keep the picture, they should tell you "video is routinely kept up to xx days" - where xx is at least as big as the "real" routine retention time.
So, next time I walk into a self-service postal kiosk, I hope I see a sign saying "cameras in use, pictures are routinely kept for up to 100 years." That way, they won't have to change the sign for awhile.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I plan on carrying around a picture of my cat's face for holding up to the camera in just such situations.
"Sir, this package was clearly sent by a group of radical tabbys!"
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Two different people doing bad things is not really a lot. More people are killed in hit and run accidents every day. So with your logic, everyone should wear cameras looking out for rogue cars?
c# - Wait, it's not pronounced coctothorpe?
Some religions belive that photos 'remove the soul', so according to the various laws and rights groups, all cameras need to be unplugged immediately, or i will be forced to file suit against all entities with a camera pointed towards the public.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I once came across a postage stamp machine that was incorrectly set up. It had the 20 stamp booklets available for 2 cents each. I needed to buy stamps, so I saw that, was curious, and hit the button. Imagine my surprise when a booklet of 20 stamps fell out and the machine read that I had $4.98 still available.
:)
:D
Naturally, being the evil person that I am, I took advantage and cleaned out that slot. Ended up with over 200 of those little booklets and still got back a dollar.
It was a weekend, nobody was around, never got caught. And I'm still using those stamps to this day.
When I go inside a post office there are security cameras everywhere. They record my image (whole body) and probably store it for some period of time. How/Why is this any different.
It just occurred to me that those stamps could have RFID chips embedded. When a stamp is sold, the system stores the picture of the buyer and the RFID number of the stamp/booklet/etc dispensed. If a stamp is used for something illegal, the feds just have to use an RFID reader, contact the USPS with the chip ID, get the location of the vending machine and pull out just one picture. I'll just wait 60 days before using my stamps... :)
Let us all bow to government almighty, the one true savior, protector and retirement-saver.
Long live the state!
Down with the tyranny of the individual!
All your favorite sites in one place!
is that true, freedom-loving patriots should carry their Nixon (or Reagan, if you prefer) mask at the ready at all times, in case they have to buy stamps. Or use an ATM. or go into a bank. or a retail store. or walk around in public....
The kiosks don't accept cash ... I'd expect more of an outrage over that than there is a camera(s) in the machine storing pictures.
The camera part is pretty obvious and easily spotted - it's a silver colored square that's difficult to miss. Contrast this with pinhole cameras that are often well hidden and difficult to spot - pinhole cameras are sometimes used in conjunction with a traditional camera(s) in ATMs, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there is more than one camera aimed at/inside some of those kiosks.
Ron Bennett
online
Hey great idea! Internet is such a nice place when it comes to anonymity.
blah
<tinfoil_hat>
Thats nothing!
Hell, within my liftime i expect my toaster to hold me at gunpoint every morning and demand a DNA sample, a retinal scan, thumb, palm and footprints as well as some navel lint and a 1024 character pass-phrase.
</tinfoil_hat>
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Most likely they put these in place because of the anthrax-filled envelopes that have made their way to certain locations. I'm not endorsing what they're doing, but along the lines of Homeland Security this would make sense.
Boy people love that quote don't they. You know just because someone said something witty doesn't make it the truth. He was a person, people make mistakes, isn't it possible that he was wrong?
"A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire
500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
BTW, I hung around waiting for the machine because the medium-tech electronic postal scale on the other side of the lobby gave me three very different weights for the same envelope. sigh.
"This signature quote intentionally left blank"
It is quite simple:
Left wing - Government should take care of everyone else but leve me the hell alone.
Right wing - Government should take care of me, screw everyone else.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
One of the main trends in tech is a move to ubiquitous computing, where computers are intergrated into the surroundings and continually provide us access to the net. The price is, of course, that the computer continually knows where you are, and thus by extention anybody with sufficient access.
The question is how far we want to go for convenience. It might be nice that the sandwich machine automatically spits out your paid-for order as you walk up to it, but are you willing to pay the cost of part of your privacy for this convenience?
Jw
A lot of businesses (and the government) handle loose stamps like cash. Postage has an easily recongizable value that never expires, is used universally, and can be easily sold or traded anonymously. So, yes a person could knock over a stamp machine and get thousdands of dollars of a cash equivilent - not to mention the actual money inside.
Cool, then we should get rid of that law on taking pics down women's blouses, since of course there is no expectation of privacy in public places.
All the upskirt sites, rejoice!
As Dr. Strangelove said, it's not a deterrent IF YOU KEEP IT SECRET.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
"Suck my dick!" --Ron Jeremy
How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
dig out your usama binladen or tricky dicky masks and wear them when you use the machines... then see what happens. What can they do??? You have a right to wear a party mask in public??? surely you have.. or will they make that illegal too.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
He's not saying it will happen after they die, he's just saying it won't happen while he's still alive. I agree.
500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
So, here is my suggestion to improve the system. They should add a web interface to the photo gallery and add a "show your tits for free stamps" function. This way, at least, it will be turned into something useful.
Achille Talon
Hop!
I understand surveillance and the idea of retaining data about an individual to aid in possible future prosecution, but why on a stamp machine? ATMs get tampered with, and the people using them get robbed while at the machine. I see the point of ATMs housing cameras.
Postal Stamp dispensers are not what I would consider a potential crime stop worthy of monitoring with a camera. Is this some anti-terrorism plan? We didn't have pictures of the 9/11 terrorists boarding the airplanes, but we still knew who they were pretty quickly after the attacks.
Funny what the government thinks up to protect me. Personally, I think Uncle Sam is getting a little senile in his old age.
I love those Kiosks. Its great for mailing packages at midnight. Have to pay by credit card. However, you do not sign a receipt. So, maybe the picture could be used in a dispute? I know, I am reaching. Since the picture is kept for 30 days, and it can take that long to see an unauthorized charge, it can't really help in a dispute.
While I'm none too fond of this idea, I'd hardly say that having a camera pointed at you while you're in public is taking away an "essential liberty". As others have already pointed out, that's the definition of a public place; I certainly don't feel entitled to be free from observation whilst I'm walking down the street or in the post office.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Stick a piece of tape over the camera when you see it. Since this disables the machine, the lost revenue may force the postal service to reconsider their design.
That's funny :-)
My point was not whether or not it was right, but why it is the way it is.
The UniBomber combined with people wanting to not wait in lines was the Cause. This was the effect.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
If you're THAT paranoid, I suggest you use private couriers then, pay them through numbered accounts in Switzerland, and use a 3rd-party agent to drop off your packages.
Or, just stand in the line and hand-write your labels out. Don't forget to only ever pay cash for postage too.
The unsig!
wherever you go - malls, stores, gas stations you are being continually monitored and recorded. you have no idea how long they keep your face on file. what's all the cribbing about? get over it - the US is probably the only place wherever people talk the most about privacy and end up having the least!
BP http://www.card-central.com
Next step in 'technology' - postage stamps with your own picture on it. That would be 37c, please.
When those kiosks went in to the local Post Office, they had a greeter who explained their function and features. It was explicity part of the "script" that the transaction was accompanied by a photograph for security purposes.
Seems to me someone needs some PayPal donations to subsidize their fight for your freedom so they announced this as an FOIA issue. Oh, what do you know, donations are the first item on their main page!
How does the camera figure out whether the picture has been "compromised." Is this just as simple as determing the alpha value of the snapped photo to see if you put your hat over the lens? Could there be a locator behind you on the wall that the camera looks for to make sure it isn't compromised? If not, why not hold up a magazine picture or almost anything that has some contrast with different shaped objects and such. Maybe they have a running video that only saves the frames when you run the transaction. That way it could constantly process the images and if something funny starts happening. Like a major image change from a parking lot to the cover of Seventeen being held in front of it (not that the Tween crowd uses stamps, that's saved for old South Koreans), the camera could lock the kiosk for a certain period of time. It might stop a fast moving fat person (they could roll) from buying stamps. No more renewing your subscriptions to Pie of the Month Club.
...with this little word game, I quite simply don't.
I think it's entirely fucked up that one should be able to put up cameras wherever the fuck one wants as long as people are expected to stay dressed there. This kind of preemptive law enforcement appears to me akin to fingerprinting everybody and then wait for the crime.
Or, better yet, just take everybody's DNA profile at birth and give it to the police waiting for the child to become felon.
The way I view it is that if the police cannot maintain law and order without carpet camera coverage, they are either:
a) Underfunded (most likely)
b) Understaffed, or
c) Incompetent.
Of course some people are going to get killed, murdered, maimed and raped, but that is a result of the fact that we as humans can choose. Some choose to go down the roads that have victims.
Nevertheless, this idea that just because a place is 'public' that the police and politicians can do as they please with it to appear proactive, is absolutely ludicrous. I expect decency from the government, and this is a slippery slope leading to abuse.
Alternatively, if one has nothing to fear, why not have police robot snipers on the rooftops scouting for trouble? As we're heading down this road, we, the public, are dropping all the arguments that are there to protect our dignity as human beings, as well as to balance the rights of private citizens versus officials.
Except in the case of "probable cause." If the government wants to watch you at home, they will, regardless of what rights you have on paper.
I agree with you though that there isn't an expectation of privacy in a public place. That's kinda why it's called "public."
Transistors and Beer!!
And what exactly is taking my picture as I purchase stamps going to do? So i purchase stamps.. woohoo.....
Red light cams, traffic cams, plenty of store/STM/other surveillance cams that can see the street - that's already fairly well covered. Sure, dark back roads aren't, but I wouldn't be surprised if there have been hit-and-runs caught on camera, particularly in urban environs.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Perhaps you meant staunch?
Still, it sounds cool. Come up with a definition and let us know.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Posting a letter without your photo being taken is not, IMO, an essential liberty.
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Yeah, well the cops down here think this blurry picture of you using the post office matches this blurry stoplight picture of someone putting five rounds into another car at an intersection.
The government can do whatever it wants to in public places. They've established that, we've established that.
It's when the government starts using these things in ways that no rational human being would support that it becomes a problem.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
i agree that you don't have the expectation of privacy (as in getting nekkid) in "public" places, but what about the freedom to assemble? which goes with the assumption that you won't be persecuted for assembling in certain places/supporting particular causes. i think the common belief/expectation is that the general public should be able to go where they like in public without fear of being tracked/recorded/stalked/oppressed. i'm gonna be investing in a few balaclavas...
Postal Employee leaks/Security breach at Malibu Post Office.
Nick Noolte drunk again.
Look a the fashions the stars wear every day
Who's that standing in line with J.Lo ?
Star seeking attention flashs Post office.
This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
Ever hear of the UniBomber?
No, but I have heard of the Unabomber.
To remember spelling, he targeted mostly Universities and Aiports.
It's important to know your psychos.
Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
In public, the government can put up cameras because it is a public space and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy
No. They can't. You know why they can't? Because they never knocked on my door and asked me for the money to buy the cameras. If they had asked for money to buy cameras, I would have told them to get bent. I didn't hear any mention of cameras in any of the campaigns.
Oh wait. You mean there's a catch here? They don't have to ask me for money or tell me what they're doing? They can just go ahead and do whatever they want? Is there a limit to that anywhere? No? Damn. This isn't much of a liberty and freedom republic.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Except in the case of "probable cause." If the government wants to watch you at home, they will, regardless of what rights you have on paper.
Your right is you are protected from unreasonable search & seizure without due process (judge issued warrant). As long as "probable cause" is presented before a judge and properly documented, then I have no issues.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Once upon a time it was mandatory that notices be put up informing people if they are being recorded. Has that changed? (I haven't seen one of these new machines yet, so I don't know if they carry a notice.)
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Unfortunately, it appears that the gutting of the Constitution is well underway, and accelerating every day.
Privacy issues aside.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
In Soviet Russia, KIOSK photographs YOU!
:)
actually that should read:
In USA, KIOSK photographs YOU!
Well, the way things are going, we might be able to reuse all the Soview Russia jokes.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Soon the cameras will be inside your house but it will be ok because they are everywhere else. And said cameras would have built-in televisions that display some sayings? Sorry, I don't think so.
503 Sig Unavailable
The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
Oh, I completely agree; like I said I'm no huge fan of this and if it were just stamp machines, I'd be all sorts of pissy about it. It's nto though, it's a complete sales system...I'm actually of the opinion that every CC transaction should be recorded; that would be a decent impediment to fraud. Of course, I could only be saying that because I've been hit myself, but...*shrugs*
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Someone who uses a quote in that fashion is obviously doing it because they agree with it, not because they believe everything famous people say must be true.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Cool. I'm going to mount cameras on my shoes, pointing up. People shouldn't expect unreasonable privacy in .. oh wait .. public places? Rats!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
It is there in order to protect us. Let's say the next UniBomber started using these Kiosks, would you rather that person be able to stay anonymous for years upon years and commit more acts of violence through the mail or would you rather that person's face be plastered all over the country after one such piece of mail was delivered?
If humanity didn't create the psychotic nutjobs that were capable of these acts, I would be seriously questioning the need for such cameras. Unfortunately, there are some seriously messed up people out there that would/could use those kiosks to perpetrate terrible acts of violence, ala the Unibomber.
Having those cameras at those kiosks doesn't chew into my personal liberty, those cameras won't interrupt my ability to use those kiosks, they won't disallow me from sending anything through them that I wish to send through them, they won't spring out black ops agents ready to probe every orifice of my body. All they do is provide a method to track someone that used the kiosk to commit criminal acts.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
It's always nice to have worked on things that people have not only heard of, but that actually makes their lives easier.
Do you know why the machines won't let you insure your package? It seems like they can handle every other service the PO offers.
That's the only thing keeping me from using them on a regular basis.
New Web Cartoon: Jendini.com
You're right. They don't have to ask you for permission to put up a camera. Through elections we select who will represent the majority of the interests in the this country. We gave the government the power to do as it sees fit to protect national interests. Don't like what they're doing?
Soap, ballot, jury, ammo.
It is a philosophical quote: a political mindset. Marx had many quotes that are wrong in the frame of capitalism and Adam Smith generated many quotes that are contrary to a planned economy. Were they right or wrong? That depends on your own sociopolitical/economic concepts and goals.
For a truly free state the Ben Franklin was right on, but many (most?) people these days don't _want_ a truly free state: consider the millions of people who consider a prohibition of random searches and seizures to be a quaint idea that is little more than an idealistic suggestion. No less a figure than Abraham Lincoln considered the Constitution to be a rough guideline that could be suspended at will by a single individual (refer to his elimination of habeas corpus). Was that justified and necessary? Those who were thrown in jail without reason would probably say no, but everybody else had to decide for themselves.
So are those willing to sacrifice liberty for security undeserving of either? Personally I say that Ben was right smack spot on. But then again I don't believe in entitlements.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
Plus, the camera in this kiosk takes one picture (presumably), so it's more like a stranger briefly glancing at you. Not at all the same as being stared at.
But - do you really feel like your being stared at every time you go into stores or the bank? Nearly every store has some kind of video monitoring these days, and in most cases it doesn't get looked at, or maybe a bored security guard will see you on the screen, along with hundreds of other people, day in and day out.
When presented with this scenario, most people begin to understand and are less likely to present the "I'm an honest person" retort.
It's not about honesty, it's about public spaces. Do you have a right to privacy? And likewise, does someone else have a right to look at you on the street.
Sure, it would be greatly annoying and unnerving if you were in a restaurant and a video camera in the corner moved around and tracked only you. And similarly if a person was staring at you the same way. But as to the point of this /. article, the cameras on the kiosks are really no different than store cameras. So if you have a problem with these kiosk cameras, you should logically have similar problems with all store monitoring cameras.
make world, not war
George Orwell wrote 1984. The only Huxley work I can think of which you might have been thinking of is "Brave New World".
Anyway, as a gun-owner and open-source programmer you already have a solution -- shoot out the camera and install linux on the XP control box.
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Great site, I love it. I'm pretty left-wing and libertarian socially on the compass, maybe even a little more than I really am but its pretty good. Its always hard I think to decide whether one agrees or agrees strongly or what not.
the government won't be putting cameras in private spaces anytime soon
Not, but I'm sure it is a very Patriotic Act to gain remote controll of your web cam.
And to monitor your power usage (hey, you might be trying to grow some of that evil hydroponic devil weed).
And when there's a camera on every street light looking at liscense plates (gotta catch those red light burning bandits), it's gonna be a breeze to track your car... right to the mall, where every store front tracks your unique compilation of RFID tags and cameras from every angle watch your every move.
Each of these things, by themselves, aren't a big deal, right? So there's no reason (aside from tin-foilliness) to object to any of these small, incremental erosions of privacy, right?
Baby steps... baby steps.
You can't take the sky from me...
For most of our history there has been no such thing as an anonymous mail drop. You took your parcel to the local post office, which in a small town would likely be in the back of a general store or tavern.
except if you are being monitored for "national security reasons", in which case no warrant is needed. Brought to you by the "Patriot Act", the thousands of pages of law your elected representative voted for but never read.
You can appeal to a secret court which sits at a secret place with secret judges, ruling based on secret precedents, with all proceedings kept secret. Have fun.
Left wing - Government should take care of everyone else but leve me the hell alone.
Right wing - Government should take care of me, screw everyone else.
If you're talking about the United States left/right wings of politics, those definitions are wrong. I feel these are better:
Left wing - Government should pay for everything, using money collected from the middle-class to the rich. However, the government should keep it's nose out of my individual liberties.
Right wing - Government should leave me and my business alone to be profitable and allow me to choose how I spend the money I've earned. However, the government should stick it's nose into everyone's individual liberties.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
I realize you value your privacy, but keep in mind that public places are by definition not private, and that the government won't be putting cameras in private spaces anytime soon, as it would pretty much require the constitution to be gutted first.
The current administration has already proven that they have both the desire and the ability to drastically change our laws while keeping the public thinking that it is in their best interests for the government to do so.
Just wait for the terrorists to begin living right in a middle-class neighborhood acting as any other family. Then the government will want to curb the ability for "terrorists" to create cells right in our own backyards by slowing inching cameras closer and closer to our homes.
Remember, the government is just watching out for us. Right?
OR, how about not using the USPS to ship packages and stick to FedEx or UPS instead? All the shipping centers I've been to don't have cameras...
yet.
Through elections we select who will represent the majority of the interests in the this country
But they're not representing a majority interest. I didn't hear any talk of cameras, EVER, in any campaigns.
Everyone else in the nation has a job description. You can get fired for doing anything outside your job description. I don't see cameras anywhere in the Constitution, nor in any campaign flyers, nor in any texts which address the responsibility of politicians.
You! The politician! Put your hands behind your head and step AWAY from my paycheck!
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
It's only a matter of time before the government knows everything that we do. Think about it - cameras everywhere, massive databases tracking every purchase, every phone call and every e-mail. Combine all the data with sophisticated pattern analysis software and essentially the government will know everything - where you go, who you see & what you do. It's unstoppable. Inevitable. The only thing we can do - is legalize everything. Not murder or theft - but all the low victim crimes - prostitution, drugs, sodomy, euthanasia & so on. Every change you get - even if it makes your stomach hurt - vote to legalize everything
Isn't this in violation of the newly enacted privacy protection laws? I would be very surprised if they could actually get away with doing this.
The parent is correct.
I think that's unreasonable. My home is surrounded by public space. I think I can reasonably expect some degree of respect for my privacy in this space, otherwise I am confined to my home. That's a bit like house arrest. The government is formed by my representativs, and I don't want them doing these things that go beyond reasonable necessity for ensuring the safety of my environment.
To remember spelling, he targeted mostly Universities and Aiports.
What's an Aiport?
Back in college, I had a gas mask I had picked up at an army surplus store. You have no idea how much fun you can have walking around in public wearing a gas mask. I think the best was when I walked up to the Information desk at a book store and asked if they had any books on paranoia.
Redundancy is good And also good.
Why does nobody complain that every single ATM takes your picture.
I'm not talking about the obvious camera mounted in the corner of the ATM booth. I'm talking about the camera mounted behind the screen you stare at to process your ATM transaction.
Behind? Yes, there is a secondary camera inside the touchscreen monitor you use to navigate your ATM menus. Nobody seems to have a problem with these, however.
Just interesting how much people are willing to forgive when it comes to convenience vs. security.
In Singapore during the SARS scare, they had cameras inside the house of each SARS suspect to make sure they don't..er...mingle with other non-suspects....
So your dream of having a camera inside the house has already come true-:))
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Definition and reality are a little different though. Your definitions are a little more wordy. Mine are overly simplified but reflect reality more.
Left wants the government to make choices for everyone individually other then them personally
Right wing wants the government to pay them to "keep their big business/corporation going" and screw everyone else.
the Right wing you describe is more like the religious right rather than true right, big difference.
Left wing thinks the government is an entity of good and just people that will make the right descriptions, so it should be able to make all the real decisions for people while giving the people free reign over what's left of their rights.
Right wing knows the government is and will always be corrupt and tries to put it in it's place by being small and less powerful, but they succumb to the louer eventually anyway and try to line their pockets with cash.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
So, your though (though nice) wouldn't have made a damn in my case.
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
This individual application is not much of a problem in itself, and with the Anthrax scare of a few years ago, they can get a picture of who used a post office where the Anthrax might have originated.
However, as more and more places take our pictures it becomes more easy to track someone.
Years ago it was a bureaucratic joke that the federal government had 20-30 agencies each with their own police and arrest powers. Because they were spread out and uncoordinated, this was not a really big deal. Now with consolidation under 2 or three super agencies (Justice, Homeland Security, and intelligence) coordination becomes more possible and insidious.
Soon it will be possible to network together all these picture taking stations, and with better and better face recognition software, it will be possible to track many people's whereabouts
We are on a slippery slope towards Big Brother.
Read "Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town" by William Allen to see how a society can fall down a slippery slope without even realizing it.
care to post the IP of this Unpatch^H^H^H^H^H^HRemarkably stable XP machine.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Actually, it's illegal to wear a mask in public in the state of Gerogia (excluding Halloween and 'special occasions'). http://www.command-post.org/2004/2_archives/016668 .html
As far as the ATM example goes, that's different. We know that the ATM is taking pictures to protect us. It's the bank's security system implemented on our behalf.
No, the ATM is taking pictures to protect the bank.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Just the people reading this article, and a pack or two or gum each, could easily and permanently disable this program. Tell us where the cameras are on the machines, and we'll go out and make sure the cameras can't see a damn thing. Enough malfunctions due ONLY to the cameras being unusable will surely return the machines to their publically funded mandate: to sell us our fucking stamps, without adding us to a photo database.
Surveillance is as hard as the surveilled make it, folks. Let's all chip in to make a better country.
...from interacting with the person behind the post office counter? That person can remember what you look like and describe it to other people after you leave. Even if the person can't fully describe what you look like there is probably a video camera that captured some of your image that can jog the memory of the post office employee. I don't see any invasion of privacy here.
"No Comm, No Bomb"
C'mon, visiting the post office is ALWAYS a special occasion!!
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
Don't use USPS kiosks. Vote with your dollar.
If you can't get away without stamps, and are really paranoid, you can purchase them at the grocery store, but PLEASE pay in cash. If you use a check, they'll get your home address!
If you use a cash card or credit card, they can still get your home address.
You could also get someone else to buy your stamps for you. Stay at home, ask your neighbor to buy stamps for you. But then the USPS would have a picture of your neighbor... hmmm. We wouldn't want that, would we.
I got it. Use another carrier! FedEx? UPS? How about a fax machine? Or email? Western Union? Is Western Union anonymous?
-- No sig for you!
And how long will it be before the TSA/Dept. of Homeland Security requires ID's and photos when you ship something via UPS/FedEx/DHL/whatever? OTOH, I think a reasonable defense in court would be that the photos were Photoshopped, and so can't be trusted as evidence by the jury. [Assuming the gov't permits a jury. Guantanamo, anyone?]
"Don't blame the log for the fire." --Andrew Ratshin
You could even claim that the booth was functioning as a p2p network in order to do this! Don't fight the system, use it!
I agree. He's a fuck.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
taking pictures of my "package". Although, they may sell for a pretty penny on many sites around the internet. Since I am rather tall, many ATM cameras probably get a nice shot of my gut. Bet pics of my gut would qualify for some sick fetish sites out there.
Scary Stuff.
Yeah, I do realize that, probably should have mentioned it...maybe pass a law requiring a webcam for an online CC purchase? :D
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
If you buy stamps from a human, do you insist that they forget what you look like?
Or perhaps you'd insist that their eyes be poked out?
-- Should you believe authority without question?
What's an Aiport?
It's a misspelling of airport. Sorry. But in my defense I was giving pointers on remembering the spelling of the fellow's title, not a dissertation on spelling in general. But, you're correct, I'm stupid.
Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
can someone suggest likely types of locations?
Thread of probability is VERY thin here. Let's say they DO mail such a package and that no screening catches it. So now we have a pic of someone who likely disguised themselves to go after - AFTER the plane explodes? No doubt if they were required to show ID it was fake too. So what was accomplished here exactly? Since this is so easy and this will obviously stop lots of plane bombings let me ask - when was the last time this occured?
Terrorists wish to disrupt our way of life. They wish to disrupt our freedoms. At the rate we're going they will have accomplished what they wanted without having to ever have attacked us again - we'll have done it to ourselves. Wake up - they WANT this and we're helping them by allowing things like this to occur. Our way of life is changing for the worse.
Frog analogy - throw a frog in boiling water and he will leap out. Place a frog in tepid water and turn on heat - he will sit and cook fat dumb and happy. If ALL of these things being proposed these days had been done all at once in a single Govt. bill folks would've grabbed torches and pitchforks to storm the castle. So instead our freedoms are being taken away piece by piece, bit by bit, and folks with thumbs up their ass sit around and say stupid things "if you were an honest person you wouldn't care". It'll be a shame when they finally come to take those folks away and there's no one left to protest....
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Yes, this is so everyone can have a copy of your driver licence photo ;-)
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Sorry but that is the very definition of public. Not private.
So you alright with cameras in public restrooms then? Most places are public to use but private in the sense of information disclosure. When I am on the street, only people who already know me recognize me and link whatever I am doing to my identity. I keep my privacy in regard to strangers and people watching security cameras for criminal activity. Unless they post MPEGs of juicy bits on the web, which happens to be illegal.
On the other hand, post office kiosks link my picture to at least address of the recepient and probably my own identity, as they will likely require use of credit card of driver license with a mag stripe. Any judge can issue a court order to disclose it. If you are a witness in a criminal trial, do you really want the would to know you are taking "anonynous" HIV tests every year because defense is trying to undermine your credibility.
Oh sure, I don't want anonymous pictures in public restrooms either. But for most activities, your privacy is safe if there is no link to your identity.
There is a clear distinction between public and private space.
First, I disagree with the principle of your statement, I don't believe that distinction is all that clear. Second, it is entirely possible to revisit the distinction and redefine it.
In the most famous example of this, the Quebec Supreme Court ruled that cameras in public spaces were a type of privacy invasion because the knowledge that you were being recorded diminished a citizen's ability to enjoy the public space.
(I can't find the citation at the moment.)
There is clearly another way of looking at things. It is not necessary for us to accept the "public space" excuse as irrepairable.
What's with all the paranoia about someone pointing a camera at you in public?
That's what "in public" means: a non-private space where you and all your activities are visible to anyone who cares to look.
The only difference I see vis-a-vis cameras is that it is easier for you or the authorities to prove you actually were where you say you were if you're involved in some kind of legal machinations.
So, yes, if you're photographed running a red light, sit back and wait for the ticket to arrive. And, remember, it is your fault, not the cameras.
But, if you're some poor sod who the police think, mistakenly, was in a hit-and-run, wouldn't it be nice to be able to prove that, when the incident took place, you really were pulling money out of that deserted ATM on that empty street with no witnesses?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Some Native Americans, and people from various other cultures, object to having photos taken as it is believed to steal the spirit. So how about an objection based on 1st amendment freedom of religion?
In any case, cash to a live clerk is looking more and more attractive, just like the good old days. The scariest scenario is where there is no other option and you must submit to having your biometrics recorded in order to make the transaction.
Like my friend said, before they took him away and hung him, "What a brave new world!"
The problems are that while they are covering you and yours, because they can, they aren't doing a thing about the other 6 billion people on this planet (who hate the guts of the few million on this side of the hemisphese who are keeping tabs on everybody in the USA.)
The fallicy of all this is that you're actually going to be safe. Soon its going to be illegal to report the ones that get through.
And all of us over here are being screw-tenized.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Nor of anybody. Try taking a camera down the New York City subway and you'll probably get a tap on the shoulder the first time and a club to the head if you give them any 'lip.'
Your freedom to take pictures is at stake (and vanishing fast.)
Look for set building outfits to make a lot of money as the movie industry is forced off the streets.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Hey, I have a crazy idea. Let the credit card companies implement whatever random requirements they want in order to help security.
Oh, wait. They already did.
Simple logic
.....
1. The terrorists hate us because we have freedom
2. Let's get rid of our freedoms
3. The terrorists will leave us alone.
You forgot a couple steps!
0. Use governments 9/11 fear mongering tactics to our advantage.
1. The terrorists hate us because we have freedom
2. Let's get rid of our freedoms by installing privacy reducing devices somewhere everyone goes
3. The terrorists will leave us alone.
4.
5. PROFIT
I shake my head. WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF IT!!!
---
Taglines? We don't need no stinky taglines!
Or perhaps it means that the Postmaster General is a brooding and dashingly mysterious rake who keeps an insane Condoleeza Rice chained up in his attic.
Realistically, most people in the U.S. are more likely to experience problems due to misguided and overly zealous government attempts to "protect" them, than to be directly affected by a terrorist attack. It's not a question of which gets your heckles (sic) up more, it's a question of which is most likely to have a direct effect on you. The answer to the latter question is "Homeland Security".
Make no mistake, one of the primary purposes of Homeland Security is to cover the government's collective ass when the next attack happens. "We tried everything - from a color-coded warning system, to forcing mothers to drink their own milk at airports, right down to photographing everyone who buys a stamp! What more could we have done?"
The problem with giving up liberty for security is that there's no exchange rate between the two -- you can't trade one for the other. Don't confuse a bureaucratic immune response with an intelligent response to security threats.Ever hear of the UniBomber? This is specifically because of him. You used to be able to drop off a sufficently stamped parcel in any mail drop. After the UniBomber scares you were required to take packages over a certain size and/or weight into the office in person.
Bull. That restriction (or "deterioration of service", since it is less convenient and more costly in time) was introduced during the panic after the crash of TWA 800, which they thought went down because of a bomb.
Of course, they finally figured out that TWA 800 went down because of defective wiring. But curiously enough, the degraded service stayed even though the justification for it turned out to be bogus.
"...required a FOIA request to get the information."
Correction, it required an FOIA request to get SOME of the information. There are an awful lot of FOIA exceptions on this particular request.
My favorite phrase: You have 5 Moderator Points! Use 'em or lose 'em!
A statement can not be both right and wrong at the same time.
Or maybe everything is both right and wrong at the same time. You're using some pretty subjective terms here. If a cat can be both alive and dead*, then Marx can be both right and wrong.
*That a cat can be both alive and dead is only a theory based upon multiple quantum states being indicative of a finite dimension, it has not been proved. ...Or maybe it both has been proved and hasn't. :)
Finally, a use for that Michael Jackson mask...
Actually, depending on your point of view, some statements can be both right and wrong at the same time. "This sentence is false" can be thought of as being both right and wrong.
Perhaps it's time to take off; but where else is any better? I get the impression these days that the only place you can actually be *free* is in a 3rd world country that doesn't have its shit together well enough to properly monitor its citizens. But do you really want to live in such a place?
;)
Come to Canada!
It isn't that our government has any less Machiavellian or Orwellian overtones, but there is one clear cultural distinction between USAians and Canucks:
USAians know their government, if left to its own devices, will inevitably try to get up to something bad and that they have billions of dollars, several federal agencies, lots of legal clout, and a vast repository of competent agents to carry out the intrusive or unpleasant plan.
Canadians know their government, if left to its own devices, will inevitably try to get up to something bad and that they have about twelve dollars, several very confused federal agencies, a minimal modicum of legal clout, and a not too vast repository of questionably competent agents to carry out the intrusive or unpleasant plan.
In short, some folks down South seem paranoid because they fear the government is interested and capable of doing unpleasant things. Up here, we fear their intentions, but we know they're blisteringly inept, squander their money, and essentially are more corrupt and self-serving than competent and ideological, so really, there seems to be a lot less to worry about.
And up here, you can own medical marijuana, get married if you are gay, pretty much watch and say whatever you want, observe the separation of church and state, be of any relgion and fit in our cultural mosaic, wear a beard, a kirpan, a turban, a kilt or a feather head-dress. All of that is true, but there is one restriction: You MUST like hockey.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
This doesn't stop people from putting Anthrax in an envelope and mailing it, so once again, we have a solution in search of a problem.
everyone should just start wearing masks. I understand that they're terribly comfortable, and in the future, everyone would be wearing them. Now we have a reason!
"Good night, good work, sleep well, I'll most likely kill you in the morning." - Dread Pirate Roberts
Well I got something to say
I took your picture today
And it doesn't matter much to me
As long as its seen
Well I got something to say
Invaded your privacy
And it doesn't matter much to me
Cause I'm a machine
Sweet lovely face
I'll be o'er at your place
As soon as I steal these prints
I've got something to say
I took your picture today
And it doesn't matter much to me
As long as its seen
Sweet lovely face
I'll be o'er at your place
As soon as I steal these prints
Steal these prints lovely face
Steal these prints lovely face
Oh, oh, whoa, oh.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
This is how the Nazis found/killed all the jews, they did the census reports and imputed that data into their 'mechanical computers' the Holirinth systems made by yours truely IBM. Were it not for the mass 'spying' of people and instant database access (a crude sql in 1940), the nazis would have had it 10x more difficult to track/find people and to make sure trains and stuff run on time. Now that is not to say that they could have not done it with other competitors to IBM, but the others were not as good mainly due to IBM patents on every little tiny detail/process.
So you could see this 'monitoring' of the masses started out back in early 20th century.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
While we are slowly sleepwalking into a surveillance society along with the rest of the world, the process is well behind where it's at in the UK or the US. My local city centre isn't festooned with CCTV cameras; you can still rent a PO Box anonymously, etc. You need ID to mail parcels though. In most respects it's as free a country as you can find on the planet that still has a first-world standard of living (maybe Canada similarly qualifies) but it is a concern that even Australia is starting to follow in Orwell's footsteps....
In-correct hyphenation...
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
I'll start worrying when the cost to analyze all that data in real-time approaches zero.
... what do you do? Turn in evidence of crimes? Make money?
... that's probably gonna happen too, but at least it moves at the pace of government ....
I follow your meaning -- widespread, systematic, AI-driven abuse of these systems will require plenty of spending.
But there's another kind of abuse that get easier and easier: the personal grudge, taking advantage of any petty weakness. These cameras will catch all kinds of embarrassing moments -- ATM sex, actionable statements by parties to litigation, outright crime. Guys like us will be doing our jobs, pawing through work-related files, and we'll come across this amazing blackmail material.
There's the test -- you find this amazing blackmail material
Or maybe it's not blackmail, but revenge -- you find amazing images which humiliate your enemy, that asshole in the cube next door. What red-blooded geek could resist the opportunity?
The personal grudge as a catalyst to exploitation of technology -- it's cheap, it's easy, and it's going to get commoner and commoner.
All of that Big Brother jazz
-kgj
-kgj
I work just by Tower Bridge in London.
If I go out in my lunch time taking photos (as I often do) and one of them ends up being published (as they do in print from time to time - and heck, I put them up on the web for others to enjoy) do I have to get the written permission of every tourist who happens to wander into my picture frame?
What if I walk a couple of hundred metres down the street and take photos, or outside my house?
It doesn't work.
That's fine; I'll just mail my illegal packages on Halloween.
I'd rather be lucky than good.
For a truly free state the Ben Franklin was right on, but many (most?) people these days don't _want_ a truly free state: consider the millions of people who consider a prohibition of random searches and seizures to be a quaint idea that is little more than an idealistic suggestion.
I could see you making this kind of argument if we were having a round-table discussion on what the ideal form of government was, but your statement is utterly wrong when applied to the U.S. The founding fathers sat down and decided on a certain form of government that _was_ a truly free state. Everyone else said, "Yeah guys, that's cool," and it became The Supreme Law Of The Land.
Thus, you have to follow it. George Bush has to follow it. Officer Barbrady down the street has to follow it. By turning 18 and not renouncing their citizenship, those "millions of people" you cited who don't totally agree with the 4th amendment pretty much said that they were okay with it, and have to follow it.
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Shave your damn beard.
Seriously. It doesn't sound like you are an extremely devout conservative Muslim, so do you really need to grow it? If you'd rather not suffer for your beliefs, then you need to get pragmatic. I bet that just being clean-shaven will reduce by half the extra profile-matching searches and hassles.
Hell, I myself have absolutely 0% Arab/Muslim heritage, a U.S. Passport, a German last name, and I'm half Asian, but I just have a face that, when sporting a flowing beard, makes me look Middle-Eastern or Mexican. I wouldn't dare go through a U.S. immigration checkpoint with a beard.
Of course if the beard is because you're a devout and conservative UNIX hacker, well, more power to you...
This is actually for all the folks who will try to correct the parent post. Jim Carrey is from Canada, but he is also a US citizen.
I didn't see anything about national databases or magnetic strips on driver's licenses (or driver's licenses, for that matter) in the Constitution, either. They don't have to lay out for everyone to see the precise mechanics of how they plan to carry out their agenda.
The job description of some of those people we put in power is simply to protect the public safety. How they do it is their discretion. We just have to be attentive, as citizens, to make sure this power we granted them is being used properly, is all.
Kind of makes ya want to wear a Burka in public.
1. covers you up
2. covered by freedom of religion
Now if they would just put cameras (or GPS) in the delivery vehicles and see their staff spending hours killing time waiting until it is late enough to go back and return the truck. (except of course for about 2 weeks a year)
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
A witty saying proves nothing, nor does a bland, forgettable one. But a witty saying usually provies the framework to prove, or disprove, it.
Here's an example: "In capitalism man abuses man, while in communism it's the other way around." Capitalism assumes such a thing will happen (greed is the driving factor). Communism doesn't (altruism is the driving factor). I practice something that looks very much like communism at home, but prefer capitalism in the larger world. Why? Because most people are more concerned about themselves than they are about others, myself included (Given the preference, I'd rather someone else die in some random accident than me. Given an ultimatum to the same effect, I'd pick myself. Fuck terrorists). And this gets down to the crux of the witty saying. Both systems are open to corruption. The difference is, capitalism acknowledges, and harnesses, the flaws of it's members, while communism tries to pretend they don't exist (and of course it's important for our fine leaders to have heat, better food, nicer clothes than the common man he's supposed to be a part of).
And now the facts behind Ben Frankilin's witty saying. We have yet to have a governing framework where some body hasn't abused it's power. So, in giving your government unilaterally increased power (not of the clear and present danger nature, i.e., a declaration of war against an actual territory and political leadership) to deal with a transient issue (and Al Qaeda is as transient as Cuba's leadership), you leave yourself with a problem that is as great as or greater than the one you were trying to solve. Unless you think it is only altruism that drives people into politics.
So yes, Voltaire is correct in his witty saying, "A witty saying proves nothing." but note that that is not the same as "A witty saying is incorrect."
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
This sounds like just the shot in the arm the ancient art of gurning has been crying out for.
http://www.cumbria.uk.com/cumbria/fun/gurn.htm
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
How Secret can this really be?
It wasn't announced publicly through all the news stations? I don't recall cameras at ATMs being announced publicly either...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
a) Many of these camera are for monitoring. If they actively catch you shoplifting then they'll nab you. .. but not if they think you looked suspicious on a recording from 3 weeks ago
b) They don't refuse you service if you haven't been snapped by a camera yet
c) Many stores have membership cards to shop/get-discounts. Does this mean that it's fine with you if everywhere does? Propogation does not make something right, just popular.
How about if the person asks you not to take/use the picture.
My g/f is a journalism student and at one time was photographing panhandlers are part of a photo-essay. Most didn't mind, one (who hadn't even had his picture taken), got quite belligerent about the picture-taking, going on about right-to-privacy, etc etc.
Since we hadn't taken the dude's picture there was nothing to erase anyways, but if he had requested it would we have been obligated to do so (the assignment was not distributed out of the class to my knowledge).
If you are supposed to remove such pictures, what about if somebody hits your car and you take his picture for evidence or other such situations?
That's my primary point. If they would adhere to the 9th and 10th amendments like they're supposed to, they shouldn't be involved in any of these activities. It was never conceived that the government would or should become this large.
Who else gets to disregard their rules of employment so blatantly?
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Canada != USA. While I know you realize that, I think it's important to remind folks who post laws from one country pertaining to the laws of another.
That being said, I have issue with the point of that Canadian law... the knowledge that you were being recorded diminished a citizen's ability to enjoy the public space.
As is with the freedom of speech (not freedom from speech), we have public areas, but there is no constitutional provision requiring that people are able to enjoy these public spaces.
For instance, I work in downtown Houston. I am constantly harassed by homeless people for change, surrounded by pigeons walking/standing in my way, noise pollution from buses and car alarms, and once in a while I don't care too much for the weather. My government is not responsible for changing any of these for me, but it would be nice if they did make some concessions in my favor. There are some people who could care less about any/all of the above, but might have issue with other elements of walking in public space downtown i.e. construction, trash, building design aesthetics, etc...
The only guarantee with regard to public space in the US is that you are free to travel through it. Often, stopping for more than 30 minutes can be construed as loitering, although that law isn't enforced much.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
I think it quite likely that terrorists don't hate you for your freedoms, it's either that they:
a) Have a specific grudge (for local terrorists)
b) Prefer not to have you touting your "freedoms" in their countries, particularly by providing armaments to various preferencial groups...
"When those kiosks went in to the local Post Office, they had a greeter who explained their function and features. It was explicity part of the "script" that the transaction was accompanied by a photograph for security purposes."
So the same logic allows me to take photos of every post-office worker I deal with? (or indeed, anyone in public)
(yes serious question, might be quite useful to carry around a video camera. Let's see how people react to having their images displayed, sorted, classified and annotated on my website...)
You can't control where you're born, or (till you strike out on your own) where you grow up. Some people, through a confluence of circumstances not their fault, are unable (financially or otherwise) to just pack up and move because where they are is an undesirable place to live.
Take a good look around Southeast DC or East Baltimore (to pick two examples I'm passingly familiar with). Realize that most of the people living in the war zones in both places are just trying to keep their heads down and make the next rent payment, hopefully without getting shot on their way out of the market every weekend. Moving for most of them is not an option because they have no resources to go job hunting, apartment hunting, or anything hunting.
It's good to examine one's options, but it's also good to be aware that often those who have the fewest options are those who could use them the most.
There's also the point that it's unfair to penalize the victim of mistreatment by putting the burden on them to move away, get a new job, leave friends and possibly family behind, etc.
-- Old Man Kensey