Slashdot Mirror
Outsourcing to Rural America
andy753421 writes "Wired is running an article about 'Rural Sourcing, an IT company that outsources not to India or Mexico, but rural America.' The company targets IT workers in rural location due to lower costs of living, 'The company charges $35 to $50 per hour for IT expertise, which may cost around $100 in New York City. While this is no match for outsourcing rates in India, clients benefit from local accents and similar time zones -- not to mention the absence of stigma sometimes attached to farming jobs out to foreign countries.' The article also points out several other innovative attempts at outsourcing such as Lakota Express and Seacode, which was previously covered on slashdot."
Don't outsource to India, outsource to Indiana.
Specifically, Bloomington. There is a lot of talent here.
In addition to the story linked about outsourcing to a ship in international waters, /. has already covered outsourcing to rural America: see here.
http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
I for one welcome outsourcing to others in our country not over seas.
I think I'll continue to outsource to India. They tend to speak better English than Alabamans. (And they're less likely to take the afternoon off to marry their sister).
There are places on the fringe of major cities where a lot of intelligent, IT-inclined people hang their hats. Suburban areas probably have a lot of young minds that are willing and able to adapt to the ever-changing world of IT. Much better to 'source there than a foriegn country IMHO.
I know, deep inside me, there's a Linux nut just waiting to be let out.
It seems many of the better quality India based customer service companies have been hiring employees with little or no accent, so their English is very clear.
...". It takes almost 3 times as long to have a conversation as it should. You can be polite, but also be quick.
The thing that annoys me now is that they're so damn polite. You give them your first name and they reply "Thank you. Thank you sir. Thank you for the information." To ask a question they start with "Sir, could I please ask you for the
On my last job, wirelessing an apartment and "dealing with" schlepping to a cheap Brooklyn store to buy the family a laptop plus a little de-spywaring, I got paid $600 cash money. Sure the work I did might be worth under $20 in sweat, but one extra-sharp demand in Manhattan is paying for trustworthiness. I've networked and have a reputation with clients for getting the job done and not stealing any silverware. Manhattan pays more not just because people can afford to, there is a greater demand to protect their assets. Got some nice silverware here. And some virgins. Err, withdrawn---got some silverware.
Just kidding of course.
What a novel idea! Hire people at a fair wage and get the support you need and deserve.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
It's really hard to keep young professional in small towns. Please from citys (which lets face it, most professionals are!) don't want to live in BFNW for more than a year or two. Additionally, at least in Canada, people are typically paid better in BFNW so as to give some insentive to move there.
With this in mind, the article is probably FUD, it just doesn't make any sense to do this.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
This isn't sufficient motivation for US firms to rural-source, and neither are local accents or convenient time zones. The reason the programmer makes $100 in NYC is that they need to be there physically, to interface with a broader team, client, management, etc... If a job can be sourced to someone in a small town in America, 99% of the time it can be sourced to someone in India, for pennies on the dollar.
I'd give anything to be outsourced to someplace I'd want to live, say New Mexico, Northern California. I like making a lot of money, but it just doesn't go that far in New Jersey, where property taxes are out of control and there are just too many people. I'd take a pay cut to live in some place that was quieter, with a lower cost-of-living. And in this day-and-age of telecommuting, why not? I suspect it would save companies a fortune just by not having to have huge amounts of office space and the environment would certainly be served by getting a large number of commuters off the road.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
I'm all for taking advantage of hiring in small town America (I live in Indiana for the record), and quite frankly not having to deal with insane traffic, pollution, and outrageous housing prices is very nice.
But I think this firm might want to first invest in a website that looks like it was designed by more than a 16 year old with a "Learn HTML in 21 days!" book.
But that's just me, thinking people base opinions of companies off of how their website looks.
ce n'est pas un Sig.
All jokes aside from the horrible english that americans sometimes use, I (and many people I know) have had it with trying to communicate with people whose first language is not english. They may have had the crash course in english, but it's still hard to understand.
It's my understanding that one of the benefits of buying Dell stuff from the business unit (maybe only large bus) is that the tech support speaks real english. Maybe people are learning that sometimes a lower price is not all that it's cracked up to be.
eric
Americans must know that:
1. You cannot have your shares going up and
2. have your jobs at the same time.
You can choose either option 1 or 2. Bad day for globalization
I work in Indianapolis. The parent company is in Los Angeles. Works out for both of us.
Here would be nice
While I am 100% happy with my IT job in this lovely town of 2100, I could use a few more nerdy friends (bet my wife would just LOVE that!)
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
Whoohoo! now I can move to West Virginia after college, and work as a programmer and not a coal miner.
I don't get why more companies don't do this. In small towns, you can pay people a lot less and still keep them really happy. When their house only costs $30000, you don't have to pay them $80000 a year to allow them to live comfortably. Also, it would allow more people to live in small towns. The only reason that many people live in cities is because of access to more jobs. I think if people had just as many opportunities to jobs while living in small towns, then they would live there.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I can see this working if you are looking to provide basic end user support, but good luck finding highly skilled technical people to move to the country for less money. In the past, I've been involved in trying to hire skilled workers to rural areas and its very difficult to find good people who are willing to move to remote areas.
I moved to Arkansas from the Washington D.C. area several years ago. My plan was to find a job as a software developer here but after looking for quite a while, I couldn't find anything that really interested me. I ended up moving to Mexico where I knew I could find some work (and also the slow paced lifestyle I was looking for). I did some work for various companies for a while and after then was contacted by some old co-workers about some contract work. The only catch was I had to move back to the U.S. The good news was I didn't have to move back to the D.C. area, where they were based.
So, I moved back to Arkansas and for 2 years I've been contracting out to one the largest software companies in the country. My rates are very competitive because my cost of living is far lower than what it would be in the D.C. area. I'm paying less for a large 3 bedroom house with a fenced in yard than I was paying for a small 2-bedroom apartment there. I get to have the slow-paced lifestyle that I was looking for and despite making less than I was in D.C., I'm saving quite a bit more.
Our group is also outsourcing to a company India and I'm under the impression that my rates are actually fairly competitive with theirs. I suspect there are a large number of people in this area that would work for rates that would be impossible to find in the D.C. area or other larger cities.
As one such person, (one who has been hired to work in a small town away from any large metropolitan areas.) I have to say it's pretty nice. At first I was worried that the change in lifestyle from a big metroplex (DFW) to East Bumblefuck, TX would suck, but it's turned out to be a lot nicer than I thought. More relaxed pace of life, less pollution, etc. Yeah, I took a lower salary to do it, but I've found you can live pretty cheaply out here... you can live like a king for a grand a month. (nice apartment/rent house, utilities, fast internet, the rest of my bills, and food) Plus it's kinda nice to see something besides concrete during the drive to work. Definitely not as horrible as some /.ers are making it out to be. Nearly all of my fellow coders are competent and pleasant to work with. No stupid rednecks here, just like-minded people who enjoy life away from the booming metrop. and all the headaches it brings.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
I note that Thomas Friedman talked about this in his book, "The World is Flat" where he discussed how, I believe, Southwest Airlines sent its booking to stay-at-home moms in Utah. They were stable, ad low turnover, the pay was good for them, and Southwest cut their costs fairly significantly.
In addition, you are less likely to see unionization, you can sometimes farm out (heh!) work on a piece basis, reducing the benefits/workers comp/unemployment comp, etc.
I live in a built-up area of PA. I grew up in the boonies. I have long considered the possibility of giving someone where I grew up a copy of Openoffice, a dialup account, and a computer so that I can email my dictation out there and have them send it back on a piece rate basis.
I could probably save about 25-30% on my transcription costs.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
After the years of the constant miscommunication, the lies, the hanging up, the brutal attitude of india tech support I'd be very much inclined to hire people from rural america. Oh yeah I used to work for Earthlink and had to deal with india tech support on a rather daily basis. God that was awful. Tech support would take 5- 6 times as long to fix a customers problem then I could. Of course I was getting paid 10 an hour but still it pissed me off that they had access to systems I didn't and got paid less.
There is just a level of service provided by my fellow americans that can not compete. Mostly it has to do with language. The Indians can speak great english. They even teach them american accents. However, they generally don't understand slang terms. They won't ever deviate from their scripts. You can be 95% the way there to solving a problem yourself, and the second you get on the phone with them they make you start over. I cancelled my bellsouth account 4 times with an Indian call center and it never got properly cancelled. I forced them to put me on the phone with an American and it was done in 2 minutes.
It also seems the companies they work for just don't trust them. They rarely have any authority to do anything major to my account. They will transfer you 3-4 times to their superiors until you reach a level where they can maybe do what you need. And if there's an accounting screwup? Forget it. I have never run into a situtation where an Indian has the authority to credit my account.
wah wah wah, porkThreeWays, you're a racist. It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with communication. I worked at a call center here in Florida once (oddly enough, for Bellsouth). I ran into some of the deepest southern accents working those phones. And I would get complaint after complaint that they couldn't understand the Indian they were on the phone with for a half hour. There's just no substitute for localization. It's the same reason other countries despise us putting a McDonald's in their country. You can not assume everyone's adopted a global culture. Putting hamburgers into a country where cows are sacred is just as bad as putting an Indian on the phone in a country with such varying accents.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
India just outsourced itself to Rural America...
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
It's really hard to keep young professional in small towns. Please from citys (which lets face it, most professionals are!) don't want to live in BFNW for more than a year or two. Additionally, at least in Canada, people are typically paid better in BFNW so as to give some insentive to move there.
Do you know any young professionals? If so, you may want to ask one of them to proof your future submissions first...
Well, Gee. Do you suppose that could be that no-one ever enslaved Alabamans en masse or attempted to exterminate them in gas chambers. Institutionalise racism and anti-semitism are two of the greatest evils of the last 300 years. Jokes about Alabamans are understood to be jokes; jokes about Jews have been were the first step on the road to the gas chambers. That's why people are touchy about them.
Given that Southern Baptists practically run the country (badly) at the moment, if you're going to defend a persecuted minority, you might wish to consider choosing one that has actually been persecuted.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
For those on low/middle incomes, the parent poster's rules certainly apply.
People are being hoodwinked about globalization. It's a mad race for the bottom, with only a very small number of winners (i.e those that already have plenty of internationally-mobile money).
In the future, you can be a slave for some corporation or government (what's the difference?) or be a super-wealthy player. The age of fairness and democracy is over guys.
I feel we're hurtling back to Plutocracy the excesses of the Roman Empire, and the US is leading the way.
I can't wait to call up tech support and hear "...and you sure have a pretty voice!"
$35-$50. I pretty much live in rural America, and Sykes only paid $7-8 on the average. $9-11 if you were a admin. This was the highest paying section, and these people were required to know how to tell a client to completly disassemble and reassemble a computer. That's between $14,500 - $16,600 annually Yet, in the state where I live, the supposed annual salary for a programmer was stated to be $50,000, when in actuallity it was more like $27,000. To make comparisons, the adjusted County income for this same area was stated: Very Low: $30,300 Low: $33,000 Moderate: ~$44,000 Median: ~$65,000 Forget Indiana. India is right here in America.
About 2 years ago I interviewed with my current employer, a large bank based in NYC. I live in Syracuse, NY. During the interview, they told me how after 9/11, they decided to move the majority of their IT staff out of NYC up to Syracuse. This was because it was much more cost effective for them. They didn't even offer the current NYC employee a chance to move, they were just laid-off. I always knew Syracuse was a third world country and this just confirmed it.
Only a handful of people in this day and age have really been persecuted. If you want to get technical about it just about everyone has been persecuted in their lineage and slavery could well be a part of that too. People can only think of recent history and what the politicos on TV tell them. Do you believe that the US was the only country to ever institute slavery and that blacks were the only people ever enslaved? You do know where this ideology was imported from don't you? Do you think nobody besides the Jews were ever persecuted by Hitler or any other person/regime? You need a reality check. The OP is a troll and this stuff is no more appropriate being directed at WASPS than blacks or Jews.
Try not to let all bile affect your brain too badly. Your grip on reality is questionable right now, as it is.
Dark Reflection
Now all our software will come with gunracks, "nekkid lady" sillouhette mudflaps, and singing bass easter eggs out the wazoo! I can't wait... ;P (It's a joke folks. Take a breath, relax and laugh. God knows there's enough jokes about New Yorkers and "City Bwahs". Sad that I have to put that in here to avoid people taking offense.)
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Where does our broadband access rank us again? About 16th? Truth is, the IT infrastructure might be genuinely superior in India compared to Kissin' Cousin Township, Iowa.
This has been a sore point for me for decades.
Corporate America has insisted on locating in the most expensive locations for the "presitge" and then bitch and moan about the cost of workers. The technology and bandwidth have been around for years to establish satellite offices in low costs areas anywhere in America, but the Suits were just to stupid to see it.
This is probably because some high priced consultant didn't tell them to do it. So now, someone had the simple idea of calling it "Outsourcing" and the empty headed Suits all now think it's the thing to do.
I swear...all you have to do is look at GM and the dumbass decisions the made about Building and selling giant trucks. Then they act surprised and panic when what everyone knew would happen, happens...people stopped buying them. What's even worse...they've been there and done that before...can we say "That 70's Market?"
I't really very simple...most corporate leaders can't think any further ahead than their own...
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I did a quick browse of their website and found nothing mainframe related. Perhaps they haven't realized yet that there's still a considerable portion of the Fortune 500 running IT on mainframe systems. .NET doesn't quite run on an IBM z/OS system.
stigma sometimes attached to farming jobs out to foreign countries
What stigma are you talking about? The accents a foreigner has? His lack of grasping the subtleties and well the dialect of our american-english language? Or the fact we are pissed our SERVICE jobs are exported. First they sent our manufacturing jobs and said "hey manufacturing is out, service is the way to go." So all these people who had a semblance of a chance shifted their careers to service and now they are shipping our service jobs out too. The only that will be left is your gas attendent, waitress, doctor and stripper. Sorry I didn't graduate college so I could be a gas attendant, waitress or stripper....and I definitly don't have the money to invest in medical school.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
As it says, cost of living is signifigantly less, I don't NEED to make that much to live comfortably where I live. Some of us don't like being in/around big cities. So that makes me less intelligent and less driven to succeed because I don't want to make as much as I might possibly make living somewhere on the east or west coast? Guess that PhD I'm working on doesn't matter then huh? Cuz I'm just a 1/3 rate moron living in a rural state? I don't NEED to make that much to live comfortably in the middle of the US thank you. My house cost as much as some of my friends vehicles, no it's not huge but it's 150+ years old, limestone with hardwood floors and has history. Sheesh. Money isn't everything, especially not when it comes to quality of living.
After working in DC for nearly two years, I'm off to Indiana to eliminate the three hour daily commutes, and the crowds everywhere I go. Sure, I'll get paid a little less, but if you look at the costs in BFNW, I'll actually have more $$$ in my pocket at the end of the day.
Given the generica that has blanketed the land, the major shopping is more or less the same everywhere. And I do mail order here as well (sure it's only 20 miles across the city, but it would take me 2 hours at lunch to get to it and back), so not much changes in terms of my accessibility to items. It's really frustrating to be near lots of good stuff, but not being able to really enjoy them because of the crowds and gridlock on the highways.
Plus there are little grandma types handing out cookies at the airport, they never do that at LaGuardia. More power to the folks who want to go the cities, that makes more land and quiet for me. Enjoy your bird flu in the city...
Sheldon
How do you know that his joke wasn't the first step on the road to the gas chambers for Alabamans, then? We won't know for another few years.
Because you can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter"
Is not a major factor any more as long as there is bandwidth and an airport relatively close by. Cheaper to pay a Consultant to fly in and get the job done than carry big city overhead. The problem is getting a reliable match between client and consultant.
Not sure what you know about the real world but $35/hr goes a pretty long way outside of places like New York City and the state of California. Believe it or not, we don't have to pay $400,000 to get a box house with 1200sq ft. Things really are that much cheaper. It depends on personal preference of course, but I'd rather be sitting on 2 acres of land in a 3500sq ft beautiful house and telecommute than in a small New York apartment with a window looking out at another apartment. Also it's bigoted and naive to think that because somebody chooses not to live in a 'wonderful' place like New York City (uck) that they are just dumb hicks or incapable of doing an IT job.
The housing is better than in CA, but the traffic on 465 is awful, and the air quality in Indianapolis is pretty bad, which kind of surprised me. I've never seen as many air quality alerts as when I lived there.
Even with that, it beats the hell out of a lot of places I've lived.
As for tech jobs, if you're doing business apps, it's a good place to be. If you're doing any other kind of tech, Indy pretty much sucks.
Pre 9/11 I was trying to drum up support for a new country, Pandemicia. The idea was to gather some like-minded IT folks and take over an island in the Caribbean. Set up a new government with an emphaysis on self reliance. No welfare, no income taxes, only property owners can vote. National products would be based on IT, server farms, software development, web design etc.
Wrong. Cost of living IS what it's all about. Not only is it possible to make far less many in rural American, that say NY or CA, I can for example often still buy a bigger house. Just because people live in rural America does not make them morons. Living in a big city with traffic, smog, high cost-of-living, crime, you name it, there are a lot of reason people have no desire to live there. If they can live comfortably where they are, that's often enough for them. Large amount of concrete do not equate with smartness or quality of life.
Maybe they can get the guy that did Arby's.com. But to be fair, they probably don't have the budget of a national restaurant chain.
I was in the Dentist office yesterday and read a Business week article about how India's internal economy is booming so much now that it's getting harder to find and keep workers. This is leading to high turnover and making it tougher to outsource work there. I wish I had a URL but it was an early Nov. issue.
This could mean that outsourcing might have peaked, at least for India.
No matter where you go, there you are.
Everyone wants the person who answers their Tech Support call to be a computer guru, but no one wants to pay extra for that privilege. The world has changed, the computer support model has changed.
Dell is actually the only company I know that caters to this with their Gold Technical Support (an upsell added to the service contract for business customers). At a few jobs I have had to work with them, regular Dell business support and Dell Home support (India).
Having worked with all of the choices, I would never hesitate to spend the extra money to get Dell's Gold Support. Even if I get a guy on the phone who isn't a "guru" he has access to someone who is. And, just about everytime I've called I've gotten either Dell headquarters in Round Rock, TX or somewhere in Idaho.
This is already being done. Its called "Contracting". Also, they dont have to outsource it to Rural America. Most of the times the contractors work on site but are paid much less than regulars.
Clearly, Google is the next Microsoft.
Not all jobs in IT are pounding on a keyboard producing code. Many (if not most) telecommuting jobs require a lot of communication via phone and other methods and people in India for the most part are not up to snuff. There are some (probably the better paid) that speak English decently but the accents and the vocabulary are difficult to overcome in any job that requires a lot of interpesonal communication.
My wife and I moved from California to Sedona Arizona 7 years ago and we both feel that the greatly reduced income is OK given that the cost of living is less, the mountains are fine, hiking is great, etc.
I love working out of a home office and telecommuting for various customers. There are diversions like helping my wife with shopping and cooking, walking my dog on the national forest service trails behind my house, etc. However, I find myself only working when I am really in the groove (or in the flow) and find my professional life to be very fullfilling. I do have to work hard at giving customers the feeling that I am always there for them: not easy when I have more than one job going, or when my buddies talk me into a long hike.
I used to charge two remote consulting rates: high priority (no going off on hikes when working for these customers) and low priority (I will get stuff done as soon as I can, but expect occasional delays of a day or two). Anyway, I quit taking high priority work - again trading some money for an even better lifestyle. I am happy working 30+ hours a week, but working flexible hours is just *great*.
Gee, I can see why geeks do poorly in all things business. Can you say "job opportunity", or "business opportunity"?
Why don't you offer to redesign their web-site to project a more professional image, instead of doing the geek thing of complaining?
"But that's just me, thinking people base opinions of companies off of how their website looks."
No worse than geeks wearing any old thing, and then getting bent out of shape when reminded of the fact.
You might be better off mining coal
Land prices: Mortgage, rent etc taxes.
I moved recently and took a substantial pay cut, with the house prices so much lower I'm actually making more than I was in London. The banks & tax man are getting less of it.
Deleted
If cost of living is half then earning 1/3rd as much might work out. Between being in a lower tax bracket and having lower cost of living you might end up with nearly as much discretionary income. I know when I looked at moving to California from Ohio I figured I would have to make at LEAST $120K just to break even with my $50K/year here, and that was before housing prices went insane. I have a 3BR 1200 sq ft ranch on 1 acre, I paid $140K, in California if it was even available it would cost over a million! Don't assume that people are stupid just because they chose a different lifestyle than your own, we all make choices in life, it's not everyone priority to see as many zero's on their paycheck as possible.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
They took our Jeeeeeeeeeeeeobs!!
Lose, damnit. I saw it as I hit submit. Just add it to the list (like someone - one word). Someday I'll learn to look at the screen instead of the keyboard when I type.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I think maybe there is another reason "outsourcing" to rural America is a good option. As more and more jobs continue to be outsourced to countries like India (which I'm trying to say is good or bad), the cost of living and wages in those countries will eventually rise and become more comparable to wages in the US. What do we do then? Do we find another country with low wages and desperate people to hire for pennies on the dollar? What do we do with all of our outsourced employees and infrastructure? I think businesses are starting to look down the road and ask some of these questions. I think it may be possible that outsourcing jobs to other countries will be more costly in the near future and we are currently just using a outsourcing as a short term solution that may come back to bite us. I just think this is something that IT professionals and business will have to think about more seriously very soon, and I haven't seen it discussed much yet here on /.
Do what is right and let the consequence follow
"I suspect it would save companies a fortune just by not having to have huge amounts of office space and the environment would certainly be served by getting a large number of commuters off the road."
Nolo has plenty of books on becoming an independent businessperson. The advantages of telecommuting are similiar to a SOHO, including a lower crime rate were "work at home" is prolific. It's also a good thing for the tax base.
Finished reading 'The World is Flat' by Thomas L. Friedman http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312425074/104-96 58154-8360738?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v =glance
who actully talked about home sourcing by Jet Blue. About how instead of sourcing their customer support overseas they work with mothers who want to work and need to stay at home to take care of their kids. This just reminded me of that.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke
I live in rural Alabama, and speak English at least as well as someone from the rest of the country. I work as a telecommuter (run a support department for a firewall startup) and have never had a problem. I agree that it is nice to get a nice home for 80-130K as opposed to 350-600K in some other areas (San Fran comes to mind.)
Since I timeshift to cover some of the EU, living in the eastern US is nice, and we have fewer problems with telco and power than some of the more populous sections due to less inclement weather.
Remeber, lots of IT jobs are actually information brokerage - knowlege based economy. Who cares about location. Timezone and communications skills are the premium here.
Always value the individual over the system. --Bruce Lee "I don't need a Sig - I have a custom 191" - me
Which brings me to my next point, if these guys cost 1/3rd of the price it brings the question who actually wants to earn one third what they could in life? Practically nobody even if cost of living is cheaper.
This simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that are willing to work for less money if the money they get will both go further and let them live somewhere they prefer.
I DO think that a lot of these consultants will probably end up being a little older though. A kid right out of college is probably more willing and more likely to prefer to live in the big city. There are a lot of benefits to living in the "middle of it" when you are young, unattached & don't have many expenses. But a few years on when that kid gets married, has a kid (or two, three... more?) that moving someplace away from the big coastal cities will start to have a lot of appeal for them. Especially if they already owned a (small) home and can also cash out of the high-cost housing market and upgrade while also get completely out of debt moving to a lower-cost market that has a small-town atmosphere that they think is more conducive to raising children.
They're working on fixing your concerns, but there's a lot of inertia in the judicial system. It takes time to swap out all the judges with new ones who are properly indoctrinated. The problem for you is that history teaches that the congress and president are likely to get thrown out on their asses over some economic crisis or scandal, so the process will probably reverse again.
The thing is, our country was founded by anti-christians (but not atheists) who realized the dangers of allowing a country's policy be set by religious dogma, and they built guards against that into our system. Respect for that decision has waxed and waned over the years; it's been waning for quite a while now.
Our company moved from metro Atlanta to the Athens, GA area many moons ago. The reason was that we could get the unskilled workers we need very cheaply and they were happy to get the money we were paying. Keeping skilled workers is a constant battle since many of our staff live between Athens and Atlanta and often eventually defect to a job in Atlanta that pays a bit better.
Personally, I enjoy living in a $120000 3500 sq ft home on 1.2 acres of land so I actually live a 20 minute commute from Athens in the other (non-Atlanta) direction. I also get spend my summer weekends on beautiful Lake Hartwell instead of the massively overcrowded Lake Lanier since Hartwell is now only a 20 minute drive (24 miles to the boat ramp I use).
Several years ago when I lived in Maryland I read a story about a phone soliciting company "out sourcing" its work to small towns in eastern Maryland rather than overseas. The company had to pull the work because the small town people were too rude and condescending. It appears that one advantage of using third world labor is that they know their place.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I'm an Irish American Catholic. Cromwell and the Brits oppressed my ancestors' asses pretty well Back in the Day. Then of course there was that whole anti-Catholic/'No Irish Need Apply' thing here in America for the longest time. Can I be an oppressed minority defended religiously -- sorry, ardently -- by the Politically Correct Media? Oh, Please, C'mon!! What do I have to do to get in the club? Start a blog? Refuse to wear a necktie?
Or have we worked so hard at integrating ourselves into American society that it's too late to collect any of those 21st Century societal guilt-perks I keep hearing about...?
That is a move from RTP, NC USA to Bangalore, India. RTP's cost of living is probably mid-way between NYC and BFE rural town pop. 600. A 2800 sqft house will run about $300,000 to $350,000. Don't expect a new house here for less than $300K but older smaller ones might be as cheap as $150K. Apartments run $700 to $1400 a month.
I would be willing to move to a smaller city if I could take my IT job with me.
Think Deeply.
I don't see your point. Slavery and the Holocaust are probably the top two greatest evils of the past 300 currently being exploited for political gain. What makes one joke a slippery slope and the other not so? Personally, I think it is retarded and counterproductive to insult someone merely because they belong to a particular ethnic group. And I certainly don't see any reason to have double standards in joke telling.
I want to live and work in rural New Hampshire. I am not talking about the southern part that is infested by massholes. What is the best way to go about this?
A good friend of mine pays approximately 3x the rent I pay for not even half the living space I have on a monthly basis. What he spends on the other 2/3rds of his rent, i spend to pay all my other monthly bills, and I make more than him.
living in a rural area is considerably cheaper
"I ended up moving to Mexico "
Cripes, they're all trying to get out and you're trying to get in.
The D.C. area is such a great area; 20 minutes outside of DC, you're in the country, we've got all major league sports, we've got culture, we've got a lot of universities, there are good schools for kids, crime rate is reasonable and you've got so many historic landmarks and interesting things happening around here.
Yes, houses are expensive, but its an investment. I bought my current house 10 years ago for $350K and now its worth well over $1M. When I retire in 20 years, it will probably be worth twice that, so I'll retire, sell my house and *then* move to Pleasantville U.S.A. buy the $100K house and still have $2M in the bank to enjoy during my retirement.
And I work 40 hours a week too. I'm active in church, community, sports, you name it.
Sounds like you're afraid to do well.
Typically when I get Indian customer service they speak either perfect English (Sometimes they'll ask odd questions like "How is your climate?") or with a British accent. Perfect English still sounds like an accent to someone from the United States where every state has their own accent. Everyone has an accent to Texans except people from Texas. Some states have light accents, others heavy ones, and some states (such as Missouri) have a different accent from north to south. You'll even find certain towns that have a unique accent that's different from the rest of the state.
However, that isn't to say that perfect English or British accents aren't understandable to Americans.
It appears that people have forgotten that most of the phone tech support positions require very little, if any, technical skill. All you need is the ability to follow a laminated flowchart, look up error messages in a catalog, and tell people how to do an in-place upgrade of Windows.
Don't go thinking your tech support experience is going to be so much better just because the person on the other end of the line is in Tulsa instead of Bombay. And the fact is that American companies will always do what costs them least in the short term, or make them the most money in the short term, with no regard for the longer term (read: next year).
When it costs less to operate, train and pay someone in rural America than it does to do the same offshore, then companies will do it. No sooner.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
Driving to Colorado from Oregon we stopped at a small farming/travelers community in Idaho and I was shocked to see a large Dell support center! So, Apparently, Dell may have been on to this idea for a while. Kudos!
'A Negotium of scientia reperio tantum dissimilis of quam ignarus nos vere es.'
Do some research- did you know it is 100% legal to marry your cousin in California? Did you know it is illegal in Ohio and many other midwestern states?
In all seriousness- I can understand why left and right coasties hate that Ohio decides the elections every 4 years- you think we are a bunch of unedukatid Yokels. YeeeeHAAAAAAAAAAA!
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
Uhh to quote an old redneck joke- The South/Midwest would definately win in a civil war fought today, because we have such a large concentration of armed pick ups.... :)
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
I've been saying that for years. Outsource to Oklahoma it's like a Third World country. Tulsa is a mecca for call centers. Tulsa had pretty much been a one horse town, oil, for the longest time. But it diversified into aviation and telecommunications. Guess what? All of those industries got whacked and Tulsa got hit by the perfect job loss storm.
Tulsa is an ideal place to outsource to. Like a major tech city in India it is a pocket of high tech surrounded by wasteland. The roads are bad and the drivers are worse. And they speak slightly better English here. The cost of living is low. It is in Central Time Zone. So it can handle calls on the East and West coasts with relative ease.
Gotta love a place that has a giant statue of an oil worker, The Golden Driller in front of one of the largest buildings in the world, The Expo Center.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
It's true! My family and I were driving through along the interstate and stopped for the night in this small town (complete with Walmart, some Chinese Takeout, and a canyon with a golf course!) ..Anyways.. while we were gas'in up to continue our journey, I noticed a large 'Dell Support Center'.
So.. Kudos for Dell! They apparently have been doing this for a number of years now.
Darthwonka
'A Negotium of scientia reperio tantum dissimilis of quam ignarus nos vere es.'
Hi you stupid fuck. There is a higher percentage of English speakers in Alabama than in Mexifornia or New York. And it is legal to marry your first cousin in California. Have a nice day.
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
I'm a coder (/programmer/developer) in Montana, and when I tell people from Seattle or California what I make, they think I'm joking. They can't imagine living on so little.
And guess what: we outsource some of our code to Vietnam.
While the cost of living is lower, many things cost the same. This means that computers effectively cost twice as much for me as those in the big city.
I must say I am quite surprised to see this article on slashdot, mostly because I just had an interview with Rural Sourcing and was given a job offer. A whopping $27,000. I'm sorry but I quickly sent a polite email saying, "No thanks." I made more than that my sophomore year working at SAS.
h tml Just one bad hire can kill a team and it really takes a good programmer to know a good programmer. It's safe to say their manager (named "Buddy") is not a programmer. He's a great guy and moderately buzzword-compliant, but he's not a programmer.
The driving reason for declining their offer is that I just do not believe they will be able to keep smart graduates in Greenville, NC at that rate. There are just too many jobs on the east coast for IT workers. They are basically trying to hire my entire graduating class since I seriously doubt they will be about to coerce kids from coming from anywhere else.
On my second interview I was invited to their job site where I was shown the master plan for upgrading their cube-farm. They want to have 45 employees by next summer and 100 by Dec 2006! They have 12 now. I think they would be best to take a look at http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html and consider hiring people based on need. If they had fewer employees they could offer better wages and have a ghost of a chance of keeping smart people in Eastern North Carolina. There's plenty of great evidence showing that smart programmers can consistently be 10 times more productive than average programmers. Here's just one link http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.
I am graduating from ECU (the university mentioned in the Wired Articles) this Decemeber and I believe that our program (although practically unheard of) is very competitive. Plenty of our graduates go on to be successfull just like other schools and some of our graduates find out that by not taking their career into their own hands they have effectively received a degree in Common Sense(tm). I'm afraid that Rural Sourcing's idea of trying to grab every graduate from ECU is going to be a disaster. The smart ones will go other places, the ones who have NO CHOICE will stay in Greenville and work at Rural Sourcing.
Please refrain from repeating yourself.
Do you not understand the concept of separation of church and state? Worship as you wish (privately), but do not attempt to force your religious beliefs on others and especially do not attempt to legislate your religious beliefs or make them official state policy.
Speaking as a woman who lives in the south (in a large city - Atlanta - and not in the redneck boonies hours from the nearest interstate), the SBs do unfortunately determine many aspects of public policy at the local, state and federal level. Some examples would be bans on alcohol sales on Sundays, "Evolution is just a theory" stickers in public highschool science textbooks, constant attempts to mandate the teaching of religion masquerading as science in the form of "intelligent design", escalating attacks on Roe vs. Wade, forced "options counseling" and waiting periods for women who want an abortion, the continuing delays in introducing RU-486 and other pills to the US market (when they have been safely and effectively used in Canada and Europe for years), teaching misinformation and lies WRT birth control safety and effectiveness in public highschools and even the state university system (ie - info which contradicts annual figures published by federal health agencies)...
These are just off the top of my head items I have had first-hand experience with.
I really wish there were some politicians who would work to remove the tax-exempt status of SB churches and related non-profit organizations that intervene in political campaigns and elections. I won't even get into the abuse of their non-profit status by running huge for-profit businesses such as cable tv, satellite and radio networks, publishing houses, record labels, etc., and not paying any taxes on them because it's all "for Jesus".
I thought Bush was from Maine. Anyway, racism is just as prevalent elsewhere in this country as is this Roman doomsday cult worship bullshit. The riots in LA weren't caused by southerners anymore than were the NYC draft riots.
Oh and by the way......Get the fu@# out of our country gringos.
If you live in Ohio and think it's part of the South, I don't think anyone here is going to feel bad about thinking you're an uneducated hick.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
As a software developer in a relatively low populated area, I'm all for this. In fact, I've often thought that once the connectivity issues are settled, we'll see a shift towards more rural lifestyle. If a person can have a nice house on 4 acres, a decent job, and get everything they need (physically, socially, etc), then the appeal of a flat in the "big city" is less. Not everybody will feel that way, obviously, but it just makes sense that many would.
As for the redneck jokes- I'm proud I can out-code you and out-shoot you. I think it's great at the end of a week of development I can take my truck to the country, crack open a cold one and go fishin'. I'd even say it makes me a better developer. But, if you're so upity and ignorant that you look down on me for it, come on down and we'll see what we can do about that.
The evil motherfuckers in the European Comission are trying something of this kind. It's called the Bolkestein directive.
If this directive makes its way, then any company in a rich EU country can make an outsourcing contract with another in a poor country to hire a fellow in the rich country with the poor country pay and labour laws!
If you find it confusing, I'll explain it with an example:
Some company in Paris needs a programmer, so instead of hiring one in France, they outsource the programmer from a company in Poland. Then that company in Poland hires a French guy, paying him a Polish salary, that in Paris is not enough to even rent a house. The guy would be subject to Poland labor laws, that are a lot worse than those of France.
The commissioners say this is important to the Economy, but I personally think this is only to give corporations the right to fuck workers in the ass. It blatantly drags rich countries workers to the level of the ones in the poor countries.
This is something that's being discussed also in the WTO (World Trade Organization), so get ready to work in the US with the salary and labor rights of a guy in Bangladesh!
Having outsourced myself to a rural area, I can definitely say that the cost of doing business is 1/4 to 1/2 what it is in a major city. And you get to say the immortal line "You ain't gonna get no nouveau almondine thin-crust bottled water sauteed city food. Food's brown, hot, and plenty of it!" IMHO, any place that doesn't have a sushi restaurant is nirvana.
You realize that you could make a pretty-good ESPN series out of that? We get you guys, your Fords, and your favorite guns, and then we get some Taliban with their "Taliban Special" (light Toyota pick-up truck) and their favorite guns, and have you compete in a variety of off-road events. Something like skeet-shooting while driving down a mountain road with no more than two wheels on the track at any given moment. Polo fought from pick-ups instead of ponies, that sort of thing. Beat the heck out of one more episode of "Monster Trucks" or "Philidelphia Eagles".
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
...you're doing the multiculturalism thing all wrong!
What you're supposed to say is that "marrying your sister" is a cultural practise of excellent pedigree, and shouldn't be judged by narrow "western", ahem, I mean "urban" standards. Then you should suggest that Southern drawl is in fact a seperate language, start a "Southern-English dictionary", and get the bible translated into simplistic sentences (with Jesus replaced by Elvis, as being "culturally relevant"). And then, start some large lobbying groups in DC (manned entirely by damyankees except for a token Southern frontman) which advocate "rural quotas", and always seem to support the Democrats.
Here, here! My wife and I live in Huntsville, AL, and we own our own home, two cars, plenty of creature comforts, have no consumer debt, and have very active social lives on a combined $32k take home salary.
Add to that the fact that you could double Alabama property taxes, and they would still be the lowest in the nation.
Make fun of Alabama all you want. It keeps the idiotic Northerners out who like paying too much for things and giving the rest of their money to the government.
x = x + ++x;
The queston is who was puting who on
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Used to live around Garden City, KS. Never again!
"Outsourcing America: What's behind our national crisis and how can we reclaim American jobs by Ron and Anil Hira"
Both authors are Indian-American.
Why is it considered wrong to stereotype and degrade anyone except Southern Americans?
That's easy: people from the deep south are all inbred, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, "kinfolk"-marrying, Nascar-watching, trailer-dwelling, unemployed alcoholics who park cars on their lawn, and store appliances on their porches. Duh.
Everyone else is above reproach, so Southerners are the only remaining viable target. Besides, they're illiterate so they won't know we're bashing them.
*sarcasm meter explodes*
You're just a prejudiced as any hate group in history.
When southern whites are systematically lynched/burned/beaten/dragged behind vehicles/exterminated en masse/otherwise murdered/abused simply because they ARE southern whites, then you can draw that comparison - not before. Go read a history book.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
You could move to Binghamton, NY. Roughly 110K pop (not the back woods), great scenery, good, affordable, university, decent local opera, low cost housing and major highways to help you get away. Of course, one of those highways leads up to Syracuse and down to Scranton, but eventually you'll hit NYC, Philly, or Montreal.
For your price, you could either pay less than $100K, and get the 1200 ft house, or the full $400K, and buy two 20 acre farms; one to live on, and one to house your programmers. More companies out to consider decentralizing their staff. The upper-management can stay inside the Beltway, or whatever status-obsessed traffic nightmare they need to feed their egos, and they can send the IT department, customer-support staff, etc (who they don't want to ever see anyway) off to more reasonable lives in Upstate NY, central PA, etc. It does get cold, but there are no earthquakes, hurricanes, seasonal multi-10K acre fires, etc.
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
Didn't happen in the US.
http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm
BTW, I'm part Irish and Catholic too...
It's people like you that let us Southerners know that the rest of the US is about as clueless to the world around them as the steortypes you have of us. From shows like "The Beverly Hillbillies" you think we walk around barefoot with a piece of straw hanging out our mouths. For one, that show is about 60 years old. And two, it was already a huge stereotype of something they knew little about. They pulled a general Southern family that looks like it existed in the last 1800's. Add in the fact that they were morons and you have a funny show.
I would imagine alot has changed in California and New York and other states since 1900 wouldn't you say? Or do you all act like Lucille Ball or Jackie Gleason? It's actually quite funny really. You're stereotype that we're "dumb and behind the times" only shows that YOU'RE the ignorant one that's clueless to modern world around them.
"The company charges $35 to $50 per hour for IT expertise, which may cost around $100 in New York City"
;-)
Um, I work in NYC in tech, as do most of my friends; None of us make $100 an hour.
And why rag on NYC anyway? If anyone has inflated earnings, it's Silicon Valley, everyone knows that.
The numbers in the article don't add up. They say they have $1 million in revenue and have 50 full time employees. That means avg. $20K/yr, which even in Minot wouldn't go far. Then they say they charge $35-$50 per hour. What gives?
I want to know where you can get a house in San Francisco for $350-600k. On second thought, I don't want to know where you can get a house in San Francisco for $350-600k.
Obviously you don't understand the first amendment. It is a limitation on the federal government recognizing an official religion. It is also a limitation on the federal government prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Which means, those people you hold such contempt for are perfectly within their rights to do everything they want to. Politics is not a realm for solely the non-religous.
As for your individual examples, fight 'em if you're so worried about it. If you can't take it if you're the minority, move. I moved half way across the country for a better life with more tolerant people. You can too you know!
The term "farming out" carries all sorts of negative connotations.
1. Do other countries "farm out" chip manufacture to Intel, or OS building to Microsoft or farm out plane design and construction to Boeing?
2. I've noticed that in the press, jobs and careers in the States become cheap "labor" and "farmed out" jobs when done in the third world. Would the author have used the term "farmed out" had the jobs been sent from NYC to Memphis? I see not.
The content on SeaCode and Lakota's sites is pretty thin, but that's the author's fault not the designer's. Wired seems to like breaking stories into multiple pages to increase hit rates at the cost of annoyed customers, and adds clutter with font size buttons for people who can't figure out their own browsers. Both Wired and SeaCode are using fixed widths to make my browser display a narrow column of text surrounded by unnecessary whitespace, but half the pages on the internet have that problem. I suppose Lakota's subpage titles are pretty sad, as are the flash text buttons on their "company" page - is Lakota the one you meant?
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
You have Aol tech support, Cisco presales, some of TAC, PRT, Juniper, Nortel, MS parts of MS support are all here.
But none are employed by the actually companies rather Convergys, who will turn every job into phone monkeys, and looks to cheat employes out of every penny it can.
But, I think it is worlds better than outsorcing to 3rd world contries (which I think there should be tarrifs to protect jobs here) It is still degrading doing tech support for Cisco for what I consider min wage, $10 an hr. Yup the that tells you that you need SP Services for your 2800 router for BGP support is a phone monkey. Infact most people that are working doign the support do not understand networking, heck one of the better newbs is a dog groomer and never delt with technology before.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
I previously worked for STI Knowledge. Alcoa outsourced their first level support to STI in Atlanta since their internal desk wasn't up to par. They got a good group of Helpdesk people and an excellent group of Sys Admins in Atlanta. They lucked out with our group and we were able to turn things around into a nice running well oiled machine. In an effort to lower costs and pass the savings on to the customer, they opened a facility in East Bumblefuck, GA...I mean Americus, GA which is a small town with a bunch of farms.
Over the course of a year my company started moving their helpdesks down their. Pretty much just laying off the people that didn't want to move, which was no one, and hiring new staff in Americus. I was given the offer to move down at my current pay rate and bonus with the possibility of my bonus being removed at a later date (my bonus made up 1/3 of my annual income). I proposed a larger salary due to the increased living expenses if they were interested in keeping me on board.
At the time I was living very cheaply with two other roommates in Atlanta. I'm very selective with my rommates for obvious reasons and moving to Americus would require that I rent a single bedroom apartment for more than the current living situation. Other things to consider: my car payments, insurance rates, phone costs, credit card rates, cable internet rates, and gas rates all would not go down. Not to mention the cost of regular drives to Atlanta to see family and friends and go clubbing or the movies. It made no sense for me or any of my colleagues to make the sacrifice to move down for a company that not kept their word and stabbed us in the back on more than one occasion.
The helpdesk doesn't take much to do and they can get away with moving it to Americus. However, the Sys Admin portion required real skill and they cannot find real skill in Americus. Last I heared, one of my predicessors shut down one of the production UNIX servers then later quit, my other predicessors doesn't know what he's doing, the other admins don't know what they're doing, and they've brought some people from India to "help" with the workload.
I'm all for on-shore outsourcing, but I feel that some companies don't know how to execute it properly. Some companies will save money. The last company I worked for is having to spend more money in labor to move it to Americus (i.e. hire four people to replace me). Out of ~32 helpdesk people, only 3 moved to Americus. Out of 8 Sys Admins, no one went and a large portion of knowledge was lost.
-----------------------
Yeah I'm not bitter.
In Caaaaaaaaaaaanada, we outsource to our biggest rural playground:the province of New Brunswick! Rural call centres are promised their own Tim Hortons cafe and free donuts and in incentive. Bring on the DOUBLE DOUBLE!
Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things. - Peter F. Drucker
...but I think I heard a story about this on NPR like six months ago. Nice to see jobs coming back over here, even if they're not in Silicon Valley. Too many times have I spent an hour more than I needed to on the phone with "Dave" from Billing to cancel my hosting account/RMA my printer/troubleshoot a Dell motherboard because of language problems.
I come from a fairly small town in Illinois and the last time I was through there visiting family, I noticed that an ebay call center had cropped up in the middle of town. It's a nice movement in that it revitalizes a realtively depressed town and provides jobs and a higher standard of living.
Yeah for everyone that does it!
--pete
Awesome, I've never seen anyone admit to being an ignorant bigot before. I'm glad you got that off your chest.
One thing
"Do you suppose that could be that no-one ever enslaved Alabamans"
So there are no blacks in Alabama? Hmm, maybe they were just visiting then, because I saw quite a few...
OH WAIT!!! You're just showing off your ignorance agian, haha I get it now. Funny joke.
And Bush isn't a Baptist.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Who in New York City is making this much money doing tech work? Seriously, I'm curious here. Last I checked the going rate seemed to be $50 to $80, maybe even less. If we're talking consulting work, I could see the rate being $100/hr, but otherwise paying that much to a tech for a normal week of time (I'm assuming 40 hours here) seems criminally inefficent, especially if we're talking about the jobs that are outsourced the most (ie. helpdesk). Of course, if I'm wrong on that, great! I look forward to saving up to buy my Manhattan apartment.
Or maybe shift /all/ your development work to India. Then they're in the same timezone.
If timezone and accent is all that American programmers have to offer, we are in serious trouble.
Lies about crimes
I am a self-employed programmer/writer -- earlier this year we escaped the colossal mess of Austin to live in an east Texas town of 15,000. Predictably many people here have lives that revolve around NASCAR, country music, and Wal-Mart. But for east Texas, this town is better than most, and as others have mentioned, we live like kings here. I'm crossing my fingers that the city/suburb real estate bubble and telecommuting will drive a little more diversity into this place.
My biggest challenge is trying to figure out how to meet like-minded people to socialize with. I know they're around but I have no idea how to reach them. Meetup.com would have been one method, but the idiots now charge an arm and a leg for a listing. If anyone has any ideas along these lines, I'm all ears. Craig, how about a craigslist for the boonies?
"I lived for 3 years, quite happily, on the beach in Southern Mexico, something a lot of people would give their right arm to do. So don't tell me I'm "afraid to do well." I have the balls to do what I want!"
Lived on a beach in Mexico == homeless.
If you wanted to do that, why not go to Oahu or Maui. At least live where the water doesn't give you the runs.
As to "who am I to judge", I'm just stating the obvious... you didn't do well in one of the meccas of IT in the world (washington DC), and so you moved to a beach in Mexico and then moved to Arkansas. Send me your picture so I can put an article in Wikipedia under "IT Loser" and use you as an example.
Seriously, what did you do when you were in the D.C. area? Mow lawns?
are not blacks or jews is what I meant to say
You know the difference between Yankees and Damn Yankees? The Yankees go home! (only joking, but I like less crowded conditions)
Always value the individual over the system. --Bruce Lee "I don't need a Sig - I have a custom 191" - me
Given the idiocy of some of the questions, it makes me wonder whether they do this on purpose so they can take the day off.
Am I high or low? I was only quoting an article that said a San Fran 4 bedroom home averages 614K. I was being conservative in my estimate.
Always value the individual over the system. --Bruce Lee "I don't need a Sig - I have a custom 191" - me
Do you not understand that the founding fathers of our country were Christian and they had Christian beliefs and sayings throughout everything they wrote? Did they want a Christian country? No. But they didn't want Christianity eliminated. Look to the Declaration of Independence and some of the Federalist Papers for examples. God is mentioned. Would you have told the founding fathers that they don't understand?
"Evolution is just a theory" stickers in public highschool science textbooks, constant attempts to mandate the teaching of religion masquerading as science in the form of "intelligent design"
Um, everyone agrees with microevolution. It's macroevolution that causes the disagreement. And it IS just a theory. Where is the proof of macroevolution occurring??? They have searched and searched and nothing has come up except for the famous picture that someone drew of an ape turning into a man. This picture has been shown so many times that people think that we have bones proving this. All we have are bones on either side of it with nothing in the middle. It's a "theory" just as "intellegent design" is. Why is it ok to teach one theory and not the other? If students are going to become intellegent beings, they need to hear both sides of the arguement instead of just being brainwashed into believing one side of it (this goes for people on both side of the arguement).
escalating attacks on Roe vs. Wade, forced "options counseling" and waiting periods for women who want an abortion, the continuing delays in introducing RU-486 and other pills to the US market
Most people that have a problem with it, have a problem with waiting till the BABY is practically breathing before aborting it. If you're going to abort it at all, do it as soon as you find out in the eary early stages. Second of all it's a human being. Granted it's attached to a feeding tube, but nonetheless it has human genes and if normal progression occurrs, it will have a life. I've just never understood how some people can be oppossed to the death penalty of ruthless murderers and rapists but are completely in support of killing unborn innocent children. And lastly, the arguement about it's a woman's right to abort her child. A husband should have the same right to abort it as well. If they signed papers to be in "a union" then he has a right to abort what is half hers, since she has the right to abort what is half his. And if I punch a mother in the stomach and kill her fetus then i should just be charged with battery, since it's "not human" anyway it can't be a murder, right??
I really wish there were some politicians who would work to remove the tax-exempt status of SB churches and related non-profit organizations that intervene in political campaigns and elections.
That's fine I guess, but any and every organization like the ACLU, Unions, and Black Caucus need to have their tax-exempt status revoked as well. They are also heavily into the political scene. You can't just choose certain politically involved organizations that fit your desires.
I don't mind the politeness, its campy when overdone but Americans could do with a little more of it. What I do mind is shoddy work and slow response time. my department has an India team, and although we like the people just fine, it really wears our team down. A lot of people have to stay up on calls to India in order to pass the ball, which means starting a call at 9:30 pm (first thing in the morning over there) and hoping it doesn't last more than an hour. Sometimes the meetings go til much later. It also means that if you're waiting on the india team for something, you have to wait until the next day to get answers. And vice versa of course, so if you send something over on monday, you won't get a response til tuesday, and then you'll send answers to any questions they have tuesday, and they won't get them til wed. Its not quite that loose but it does waste a lot of time because of the vastly different time tables, and I've heard people complain that the quality of work just isn't as good. Another problem is that there are TONS of coders, but few analysts in India, and the few analysts can ask for fairly massive salaries (the equivalent of 4000 US a month is what the ones we interviewed were asking for). Might as well hire someone stateside at those prices. Even if you have to pay more for hte developers, it would improve efficiency and keep your own team from running htemselves ragged with late night phone calls 3x a week.
"Did you know it is illegal in Ohio and many other midwestern states? "
Dunno, looks to me like he says MIDWESTERN right there. Is that how they spell south where you come from?
If you think MIDWESTERN = south, you ARE an uneducated jackass.
"Forrester Research projects that U.S. companies will move about 3.4 million white-collar service jobs offshore by 2015."
Manufacturing is going away...
Hmmm...
Well, there is IT and software development.
Wait, it's going offshore also.
Welcome to the Service Based Economy.
Ready to get your degree in Massage Therapy?!?
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
True story...
I worked at a call center in Illlinois for a few months. (Incoming only, thank-you-vera-much.) I spoke with people from all around the globe. Literally. I'd have someone from Japan one minute, then a bit later someone from Italy, then Russia. Only ONCE was I unable to help a person because I just could _not_ understand them.
He was from Louisiana. O_o
And yes, I felt horrible.
Fine, maybe he knows geography, but is unable to follow a thread of conversation without introducing a knee-jerk reflex defense of his own state and/or region, which wasn't even mentioned by the parent poster.
And, by the way, who does extensive research into which states allow marriage between cousins? Most likely someone who was hoping to marry his cousin.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
Specifically I live not very far from the Twin Falls, Idaho Dell facility mentioned in TFA (I even know some folks who work there.)
The huge problem with this is that socially, rural America sucks. It's cheap to live here, but aside from skiing/snowboarding/whitewater (thank goodness this is Idaho and not Nebraska) there's really nothing to do for youngish geek-oriented people. It's simply not fun to be here unless you are religious and/or enjoy cowboy-type stuff. ESPECIALLY if you're single.
The social scene in a city is far better suited to IT workers. That's why they want to live there -- not just for the jobs.
Mexico you say? who exported jobs to mexico. Since i speak both Spanish and Fluent English. That sounds like a good way to get back in to the tech field.
I grew up in rural Southern Missouri. Family still lives there. Nearest "town" has 200 people. There is no DSL there. There is no cable. Most cell sites are still analog. Even 56K modems don't work. About all you could do for "broadband" is satelite. That's sort of OK for web browsing but the latency makes connecting remote to fix problems seems like a stretch.
In short, I don't think true rural sourceing works at all.
I think, dispite the article's title, they are really talking about "small town" sourcing. Small cities outside major metro areas with 20K-100K people. That might actually work but it's not rural.
Although true, there were plenty of discrimination against the Irish and Catholics in this country, like this and a strong bit of animousity between Irish immigrants and blacks because they were competing for the same bottom of the barrel jobs, and both were considered unhirable for better jobs.
No, he was replying to a post about Alabama. The south was not mentioned. And you were replying to a post about Ohio.
"Fine, maybe he knows geography, but is unable to follow a thread of conversation without introducing a knee-jerk reflex defense of his own state and/or region, which wasn't even mentioned by the parent poster"
So what can we say about your inability to follow a conversation then?
"And, by the way, who does extensive research into which states allow marriage between cousins?"
Southereners who are sick of idiots trotting out the "you southerners marry your cousins crap" is probably the more realistic possibility.
Why are you so quick to go on the attack? Embarrased because you fucked up?
Seriousy, the next time you decide to be a dick for no reason, rememeber how badly you messed up this time, and maybe you'll reconsider.
Hey , I'm in Urban Canada (Quebec City) and I already work for cardinal, screw outsourcing to Nebraska!
Don't forget the Roman and Anglo-Saxon enslavement and extermination of the Celts.
When I was looking for a job right out of college, I got an offer to work somewhere in Alabama. Since I did not feel like leaving in the South, I declined the offer and move to one of the worst job markets in the country, Boston.
At that time, Boston was the second hardest hit area in terms of IT unemployment rates. The first one was San Francisco. I worked hard and picked up random jobs here and there. I learned how to compete and make money when times were tough. Now I am moving to California not to save moeny, but to enjoy my life while I am still young. See, I love night life, going out to nice restaurants and have an ability to wear dress shoes whenever I want to. Although I adore rural life style as well, moving somewhere where I cannot get an expresso or where Wal-Mart is the only place to shop, is not for me.
However, I think that rural sourcing will balance out the costs of living everywhere in the United States. After the bubble exploded, the rent index in San Francisco dropped to a reasonable level for commercial property. If you monitor rent index vs. price index for residential real estate you will see that the rent index is not rising as fast the the real property price. In fact, my apartment in SF is goign to cost only $100 more than my apartment in Boston. Most of my friends who stayed in rural areas do enjoy a lower cost of living; however, they are getting paid less and they are limited in what they can do. Currently, I am comfortable with maxing out my 401K why my friend who lives in Vermont and enjoys a lower salary cannot do that. If you spend smart, the higher salary of metropolitain areas can benefit you. The biggest downside about living in a rural area is the job market. If your company decides to cut costs there, where are you goign to find a job? I have been in places where the economy of a small area was going down the toilet because one of the largest employers decided to cut 25% of the current workforce. Also, if you start to hate your job, you will have to move back. However, I am still for rural sourcing: More people in rural areas equals to fewer people in cities. I guess this works out both ways.
Finally, not everything can be moved somewhere far away from the civilization. If you work in a B2B environment where you have to visit customers or do some sort of sales, you must be where your customers are. The market will tell you what to do.
So you think the guy from Ohio who posted about marrying cousins at least 3 times is a Southerner, too. I see.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
...moreso a Southern one. And not all of Appalachia is in the southern states (that is, the pre-civil-war-slave states.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia.
Were you talking about marriage between cousins, you might have more of a point, but that's hardly unique to the South, either. It's actually legal in a surprising number of states, including most of New England and the Southwest, but not, for example, Mississipi.
He lives in Ohio. So does my dad, who was born in Florida. OH NO! You fucked up AGAIN.
Are you so keen to seem right that simple things like that escape you?
Or are you intentionally being a jackass?
>Politics. Most Southern states are so-called "red states", so calling them "backwards" is an indirect way of calling Republicans backwards. For some reason, some people prefer to do this indirectly, rather than just calling a spade a spade and saying that Republicans are backwards. Maybe they're shy.
This is hard to swallow for many young poeople, but the South had voted solid Democrat from the War Of Northern Aggression all the way to Desegregation.. and BEYOND (ignoring the Reagan blip for a moment) until the late 80's early 90's.
Desegregation caused resentment here... outsiders like Kennedy sending troops down to interfere with our state's "way of life" (I'm playing devil's advocate here).
This was enough resentment to overcome any resentment of "rich hedonistic Republican fat cats" (who were limited to mostly industrialists from the north, of no-government extremists from far south Texas).
Pair that with an organization of the religious right, and many of us went to churchgoers (even going to a mainstream Baptist church) we were "weaned in the right direction".
There's a large demographic of southern republicans under 32 years of age who don't know their history, but that aint how it's been. Most of us get bombarded with God's self appointed speakers down here, and there's a bid of turning a blind eye towards hypocracy or else YOU are the one who's not a 'good Christian'. In a small town, you ain't worth a pile of spit if you're not a 'good Christian'.
In a way, rural red states are a lot like Iran, with a few self appointed clerics using the carrot and the stick and "God" to scare all the people into stickin' with the program.
I don't see a direct link between intelligence and red/blue voting. Anyone half exposed to the world and rich can act like George Bush, or they can act like Bill Gates.
American CEOs had already weighed this option. I remember reading this article in Forbes in 2003. It makes perfect sense but its very hard to get good quality Developers. Forget rural America, lets talk about Seattle. College grads with major in CS who have graduated recently can't answer Data Structures problems in C++. American CEOs are more than willing to hire here but can't find them. Why do you think Google hired Kai-Fu-Lee ? Why is the Evil Empire lobbying @ DC to goto Russia ?
One problem with outsourcing to rural America is the lack of infrastructure a lot of cities are suffering from. For instance, I just recently moved to Oxford, MS. I agree with many of the positive aspects of living in a rural area that others have posted: good standard of living, better living conditions, etc, but one issue is infrastructure. I do not live far (about 10 minutes) from the University of Mississippi and yet I cannot get DSL or cable Internet. I'm stuck with dial-up for the moment. I could pay $100 a month for satellite, but that is a little pricey right now. Unless you make a serious amount of cash or can get your employer to pay for it, telecommuting is going to be out of the question. I have been begging BellSouth to get cooper out to our house, but to no avail. I'm sure Oxford is not alone. Until there is better infrastructure within the rural US, I see a major road block for expanding businesses there.
I now work in Madrid (Spain) for a U.S. company and I have previously worked in a spanish company outsorcing jobs to South America. I have also worked for a spanish company being contracted by germans. I mean, I have been working in every side of globalization and I think it is always the same song.
The "strong" country (Note that Spain is "strong" to Mexico, Argentina or Morocco but "weak" to USA or Germany) is always speaking about open markets, and neoliberal economy and blah blah blah until the economic flow starts in the opposite direction. Almost all people from US think it is OK to sell high aggregated value goods as microprocessors to "weak" countries BUT it is wrong to outsource jobs.
The same can apply to europeans. All of us feel confortable with the idea of sell our trains and our industrial automatons to ex-sovietics east-european countries and our ex-colonies in Africa and America BUT we are all afraid of the rumanian plumber and the cheap fruits from tropical countries.
To put it in one phrase, every country in the world wants to be rich. Every country in the world wants to close its own market and wants to open the markets of others.
"In six years of living here, I have yet to find myself bored at all. So just what exactly about the city would be "more interesting" ... ?"
:)
I hear that the muggings are more professionally done.
Seriously with broadband this, and broadband that, plus the "Internet is the wonder cure to any buggy-whip that ails you". I can imagine that some of the disadvantages will disappear.
Southern Illinois, where I grew up and have lived most of my life has been "rural industrial" since before I was born. My home town, a fairly small one...filled with factories. Plastics, car parts, light fixtures, industrial cable, industrial electronics, as well as shipping and distribution for factories in other towns. The smaller towns and villages around that don't have factories...generally people commute from there to here, to to other bigger towns with factories nearby.
Hell, in my great grandmother's day, the town boasted a big shoe factory that she worked at. And Effingham Illinois was industrial since around the beginning of the 20th century, and center for an important munitions plant during WW1. So seriously, what's new about this "outsourcing" to rural areas? Cities have never been the only places with important industries in America. At least, not since maybe the 1800s.
Outsource here to Oklahoma. It would probably be comparable to outsourcing to India.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Why do you think factories are closing in rural midwestern towns? could most likly have to do with the manditory rise in the min. wage that my state (IL, and many other midwestern states) are forcing down buisnesses throats. A min. wage introducs an artifical contraint on the economy, introducing higher inflation and also makes it harder for the averge worker to negotiate wages. What the average worker doesn't know is that an increased wage != autmatic higher standard of living, in fact, in increased wage leads to a decrease of standard of living when inflation rears its ugly head.
WE complain about so-called slave wages in forgien countires, that someone gets paied 30 American cents per day in Mexico, Thailand, or China. But what the general public does not relize is that this wage is MORE then enough, converted into their standered of living, for them to live by. We, as Americans have outpriced ourselves in the labor market. With the rampant inflation that has been happening as of late, it is no wonder why companies are outsourcing liek crazy to find cheaper labor. The best thing that could happen to this country is a controled DEflation of the economy. Doing so would derease wages but also decrease the cost of living, as the value of money increases.
The Fed has had it right for the last 7 months, with constant 1/4 point increases in interest rates, introducing a contractitory monetary policy. What Bush and company need to do, in addition to slashing wages, is to raise taxes and cut the budget, though, seeing that Bush and his fellow neo cons what to fight a phanton war on terror, the chances of him slashing any of the DoD's budget is slim to none.
"And it IS just a theory."
So is just about every other scientific concept that produces verifiable real-world predictions.
To say "Just a theory" is to not understand what a theory is. Theories are well-supported by observable evidence. Your clear implication is that as "just a theory", macroevolution is just what a couple of people happen to have decided to believe. That is very much not the case.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Central PA is most often used to describe the Harrisburg metropolitan area, which is actually more Southeast-Central (or Central-Southeast). The central PA area covers York, Cumberland, Dauphin, Lebanon, Lancaster, and perhaps Perry and Adams counties. The term Central PA is less a geographical term than a population term as this area is the (relatively) populated area between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
There's Pittsburgh and there's Philadelphia. And there's Alabama in between.
Here's a company that's been rural-sourcing for over 10 years. They pay competitive rates, but the catch is that they have a tough screening process: See the software developers at Art & Logic.
You were a gardener.
Perhaps you tended the flower beds around my pool?
I love how you look down and say "si" when I ask what your name is. I take it back. You were the best damned gardener that I had.
The first thing.
Strip corporations of their "personhood". Reinstate, or restate
what a corporation may be, and clearly state what it may not
be, as they were prior to getting legal personhood.
All the rest will follow.
Yes, the property taxes are out of control here. A home that cost $200k in 2001 carries a $10-12k property tax bill each year. That same house will now cost you between $500k to $700k in the year 2005. This is in the affordable South Jersey Philadelphia region just 12 miles away from Camden. Also, has the best place in America, Moorestown, just ten miles away from the worst place in America, Camden. The rest of the state is even more out of control with taxes and prices. I have no idea how most people are getting by in this state these days......
Despite the same-sex-marriage amendment that got passed recently, I have found people generally to be very accepting of my sexual orientation -- in greater proportions to the people I knew when I lived in Washington, DC or Pittsburgh.
That's a pretty big despite. Not to mention, a pretty hard to believe statement about those cities. Are you sure it was Pittsburgh and DC you were living in, and not burbia like Greensburg and NoVA?
There's a 100% gay-friendly church in a nearby town...
Of course, there are gay-friendly churches in the same town in these cities...
There's a thriving arts center in my community with programs that rival most things I saw when I lived in cities (Washington, DC and Pittsburgh) or on visits to the coasts.
Ha ha ha! Don't be silly! You are trying to pit a rural Ohio "arts centre" against the Andy Warhol museum, DCAC and MoMA?! I'm sorry you lost your job and your pet, but did you have to lose your mind, too? I suppose next you will tell us your local ChuckeeCheeze beats out 2 Amys, and all the cuisine these cities have to offer? I can understand you are trying to feel better about having to move out of the city, but let's not go crazy! And what is up with the mods?
Lies about crimes
If that is your sig, please correct it. The "your" should be "you're". Write it all out, as "you are", if it confuses you.
NASA space flight centres are down south for reasons of pork barrel politics and proximity to the equator. It is much harder to recruit for those, than say, Greenbelt.
Never heard of the other place you hoped would make some kind of point.
Lies about crimes
Maybe most professionals would rather not live in rural America?
I just know this has something to do with the article. It feels like we are on to something here...
Lies about crimes
.... in the middle of a cultural lunar landscape.
I prefer my small flat in the middle of London where the best movies, food, concerts, libraries, bookshops, events, exhibitions, museums are ready to be cherry-picked.
Rural living is grossly overrated, so much so that most humans prefer to live in cities.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Rural Americans, particularly Southerners, tend to talk slowly and politely also, so it's no win there. As a friend of mine who grew up in Kentucky said "In farm country, if you're goin' to visit somebody, you're goin' to spend all day there anyway, so no point in using up everything you've got to say in the first five minutes". He also said "Sure, we knew we had an accent - we could tell we didn't sound like the folks on TV"...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You moved your work to where you live, the other solution is to move where you live close to your work.
During most of the hitory of mankind, work was always close to home.
It was only with the advent of the car first, and long distance trains later, that we fell on this nonsensical notion that we could work in a place 100 km away as something normal.
I was doing exactly that, commuting from suburban Britain to London. 2 to 4 hours wasted every day.
I got fed up, and my solution has been to move walking distance from my office.
Best think I have done in my life.
After finishing work I have a full world of posibilities each day to spend my free time: I can go back home, relax, go out, go to the gym. Whatever. I am actually saving money in transportation and food (cooking at home is cheaper than buing ready made food or take aways).
My place is small, but so what? There are families as well where I live. All perfectly nice people. There is a bit of gang violence going on around, but guess what, it is not as much as the media always says (what a surprise).
In any case eventually economcis will bring people to their senses. A situation where people commute 2 hours, with all the wastage this implies, is completely unsustainable.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I know of a place within a few hours drive of DC, where a large two story house on five acres could easily be had for $65,000, where a storefront building on the main street (admittedly of a very small town) can be had for $10,000, and there's still little interest. I saw places that would go for $250,000 in the city, in the high teens out there. Saw with my own eyes, and actually considered buying some property just on a whim. That's WV; no doubt there are political and social reasons that keep people who have a choice from living in such places...
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
City Customer: "Hello, is that the helpdesk?"
Mountain Man: "I'm gonna make you squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee."
City Customer: "My cupholder/CD drive is broken"
Mountain Man: "You ever had your balls cut off you fucking ape?"
City Customer: "I need to load the internet on my computer"
Mountain Man: "Looks like we got us a sow here instead of a boar. "
Dialectician. Archology.
Does WildBlue give you a static, fully routable IP addr? Can you run your own home website or do they have a TOS that prohibits running your own server?
Now in Chicago I'm a mile northwest of Wrigley field and work downtown. The number of things to do is *overwhelming*. My view at work is the Sears Tower and the Bank One building, before it was a parking lot and some power lines. Moreover, I really didn't take that much of a hit in terms of quality of life. In Champaign I rented a two bedroom house for 750 a month. In Chicago I'm renting a 2+ flat with *more floor space* for 1200 a month. The only major drawback in quality of life is that in Champaign I could walk to work in 15 minutes; now I have 40 minute commute by foot+bus+train.
"Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The Queen is their slave."
Yeah, that's right... in East Bumfuck, Texas you will not find many of your "high culture" gentle faggots like you do in Austin (the ghay capital of Texas), instead in rural Texas you're much more likely find the "Deliverance" type of turd burglars who prefer to be rough on you.
"Obviously you don't understand the first amendment."
Do you? I understand both the letter *and the intent* of the first amendment very well. Just as freedom of religion expressly implies freedom from the religion of others or freedom from religion entirely, a ban (not a limitation) on the federal government recognizing an official religion also expressly implies that legislation based on religious doctrine should not be introduced, passed or upheld by any of the three branches of the federal government (or at the state or local level). Don't just take my word on it, though. There is an enormous amount of case precedent here, as well as the writings of the founding fathers to back it up. Go to a law library at your local university. Go to a library in general. Take a history class. Or a law class. Look it up online.
"It is also a limitation on the federal government prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Which means, those people you hold such contempt for are perfectly within their rights to do everything they want to.
No, they aren't. Freedom of religion is not an excuse to do anything you want, as long as it's in the name of religion. The federal government has interfered with the free exercise of religion many times; recent (mid to late 20th century) examples include the use of peyote as a religious sacrament in Native American ceremonies and in aspects of the practice of Santeria. Again, references and case precedent are left as an (easy) exercise for the reader, unless you wish to pay my research rates. Also, I again refer you to the tax code WRT non-profits & political activities, as well as the system of checks and balances within the federal government designed (in theory) to prevent religious dogma from becoming law.
As for "those [I] hold [in such] contempt", I reserve my contempt for those who pay lip service to the teachings of Christ while attempting to force their twisted interpretations of Christianity on others via legislative means. Hypocrites, in other words, who debase both Christianity and (especially in the case of a number of recent politicians) the constitution they have sworn an oath to uphold and protect.
Politics is not a realm for solely the non-religous." [sic]
Many spiritual men have held the highest office in this land, but President Carter, an admirable born-again Southern Baptist, did not let religious dogma run his administration. President Kennedy was a devout Catholic, but he did not "take his marching orders from the Pope," as many of his political opponents claimed he would. If you can't keep your religion out of government, you shouldn't be in government.
Note that my personal religious views are deeply personal, so I will not go into detail, but I will state that I am a person of Faith.
"That's fine I guess, but any and every organization like the ACLU, Unions, and Black Caucus need to have their tax-exempt status revoked as well. They are also heavily into the political scene. You can't just choose certain politically involved organizations that fit your desires."
Churches and church organizations occupy a specific section of the tax-exempt tax code, and are fundamentally different from the secular groups you mentioned above. The grandparent is correct in stating that churches and related non-profit organizations - she probably means other non-profit religious organizations related to but separate from a parent church, synagogue or mosque - that intervene in political campaigns and elections can have their tax-exempt status revoked.
when i used to work at lindows.com they did this. they outsourced a bunch of employees from utah, presumably because they were less expensive than california developers. eventually they ended up just moving all the utah folks to san diego.
US coastal tech companies need to overcome their prejudices enough to see that not everyone in the rural US is a hayseed, but not quite enough to realise that India is a massive country with a long tradition of science and literature, teeming with really smart human beings who can add value to their business. I think I understand!
There is a higher percentage of English speakers in Alabama than in Mexifornia or New York.
So what? There isn't a national language, you ignorant jackass.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I spent 21 years of my life in Ohio. I left as soon as graduated college. Terrible, terrible state. Conservative, intolerant, provincial, religious, anti-intellectual, massive-brain-drain Ohio. I wonder why Ohio is unable to retain skilled college graduates, or anyone with an advanced degree... And I grew up in northeastern Ohio. God help those of you stuck south of Columbus. And those who think Ohio has a "vibrant arts scene"...you need to travel more.
India has the advantage of freedom from thoecrats taking over their education system.
"Do you not understand that the founding fathers of our country were Christian and they had Christian beliefs and sayings throughout everything they wrote?"
What I don't understand that is why people keep spreading this falsehood when according to letters and public documents the FFs left behind, most of them were deists and agnostics. Big difference. A few were probably atheists (Benjamin Franklin, but it's debatable), but god forbid we should actually admit that publicly. Or teach it in schools.
"Did they want a Christian country? No. But they didn't want Christianity eliminated. Look to the Declaration of Independence and some of the Federalist Papers for examples. God is mentioned."
I swear to God, mentioning God and being born into predominantly Christian influenced culture does not make me a Christian any more than it makes me a Satanist. Jesus.
"Would you have told the founding fathers that they don't understand?"
That doesn't really parse well enough to make sense, but I'll remind you that the grandparent poster mentioned separation of church and state, which you haven't really meaningfully addressed, so I guess I'll let it drop. Onward!
"Um, everyone agrees with microevolution."
Yeah, because even the loudest and most annoying creationists can't argue with it since it can be easily demonstrated. The creationists, henceforth referred to as "fundie whack jobs" (or "fundies" for brevity) had to admit defeat.
"It's macroevolution that causes the disagreement."
Only among the fundies. While the precise-down-to-the-last-details mechanisms & histories aren't nailed down (yet), the vast majority of the theory is so backed up and so supported by so many other fields and disciplines, ranging from botany to molecular biology to anthropology to genetics to archaeology to pharmacology to etc ad nauseum, that we would have no understanding of and no ability to use or make accurate predictions within any of these fields without macroevolution.
I'm very curious to hear how you can support microevolution but not macroevolution. Please explain, it should be good for a laugh.
"And it IS just a theory."
OK, in seriousness - "just a theory" is one of those cunning linguistic tricks the fundies use to attempt to obfuscate matters. Here's a great detailed definition of the word theory as used by scientists. I'll wait while you absorb it. Check out the equally important but longer article on the scientific method, too, but it takes a while to wade through so you may want to skip it for now.
~~~
Done? Good. See? Theories predict things, explain factual observations, can be repeatedly and reliably verified, and select for good info over bad or flawed info. You could say they evolve into better and more robust explanations for reality over time, and thus allow us to do neat things our less-advanced ancestors were incapable of, like going to the moon, having an average lifespan over 30 years, and using cheap & powerful computers with fast internet connections so we can argue online while downloading loads of free porn to masturbate to.
Got a better or alternate theory? Share it with the world! We'd love to see it. If it sucks, people
Overall, clients care about value more than location, and (if you're picking your clients correctly) they care about results a lot more than cost. Deliver value and results, and they don't care where you live - they'll pay you to travel if you need to be on-site for a while, and when you don't you can sit on the porch with your laptop, listening to the crickets chirp.
Pros here: Just about zero crime and good schools (I'm told - I don't have kids). Cheap housing (my painted-lady Victorian cost $145k) and a major metro area is less than an hour away.
Cons here: Limited connectivity (there is exactly one option for DSL) and something as simple as going to get fast food is a 20-minute drive.
Someone way up in the thread was raging on about how the poor, dumb idiots in flyover country are just killing themselves because they're economically illiterate and make bad choices. That might the case in some places, but small consulting businesses (many are one-person shops grossing $150k a year or more) are popping up all over around here, most of them by people who've just decided they'd rather live in the country and work for themselves.
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
I live in Vancouver -- which is the second largest Canadian city and has one of the highest costs of living in Canada (next to remote northern cities). I make the equivelant of $22 USD / hour and consider myself to be paid well considering education, duties, and experience. Most of my peers from University with ENGR or CSC degrees are making less than $16 usd/hour.
Canadians will happily compete against $100 USD/hour workers, or heck, even $35/hour.
So, it's fine to look down on southerners because A southerner shot Lincoln?
That's exactly as bigoted and ignorant as saying jews deserve to be looked down upon since some jewish high priests arranged for the death of Jesus of Nazareth.
I'd hope you'd agree that someone who is bigoted against jews for that reason is reprehensible.
The problem is, you can't see that your attitiude has problems as well.
Attention all readers: TigerTime is officially so ignorant...(blather, blah)
At least he puts a name to it rather than going anon.
If you're going to flame, at least own up to it. Are you so scared that some ignorant poor powerless southerner might mod you down that you have to hide?
Maybe we should award you the Croix De Guerre and give a ticker tape parade for your bravery.
Why would a high quality sysadmin or coder stay in the rural areas?
Ok, I'll bite.
I stay in the rural area I currently live in, and work lower paying jobs for a lot of reasons:
I own my house here. It's 9 room, on a large lot. The taxes on it are small.
I have no traffic to deal with heavier than a few farm trucks.
I can watch the rabbits in my back yard, see green rather than stone canyons, spray my fruit trees, park a backhoe next to my garage, put up any ham antenna I want, run a small business from my house, all without violating any zoning requirements or neighborhood association regs, etc, etc...
And, the cost of living is so low that I usually only have to work part time to make ends meet.
Can you say semi-retired at 43?
It's hard to do that in the city unless you've made some major bucks. I've got the time to play with the toys, not just leave them sitting while I try to make money to pay a goddawful rent and such.
That's ridiculous, the Ford would be recalled ten times and the Taliban would win in their Toyotas.
It sounds better to me.
The best way for corporations to maximize their profits is not to outsource to rural America or urban India, but rather OUTSOURCE TO RURAL INDIA!
You heard it here first, folks!
Man, you've had exactly the opposite experience as I have had. I grew up in a mining town in rural British Columbia. An astounding number of people there were the sort of idjits that related a 24 hour break between swing shifts to a 24 pack. Crime was most commonly expressed as things like mischief, vandalism, arson, theft, breaking and entering, and assault, and that was just the weekends. The place was basically packed with a disproportionate number of violent assholes.
Yes, we've had tires slashed, windows broken, and paint jobs keyed. And that was just for being the unpopular kid in high school. I can't imagine what would have happened to me if I had come out as bisexual. Not that some people didn't think I was a faggot anyway. Hate crime? I'm the poster boy; I was just smart enough not to be seen in public enough to get really hurt. For the last few years I lived there, I feared for my safety every night I left the house.
As for drug problems, hell, there were no drug problems in that town. You could get anything you wanted. Drug addiction and alcoholism were a fact of life there. This is actually very typical of remote communities, especially in Canada's far north, so it's not restricted to my hometown.
The nearest place that could be classified as a city (pop 76,000, and 4 hours drive away) was where I moved to find a job after I got out of high school. The problem is, that it had the same mentality, just with more people and a slightly more dilute pool of assholes. At least my relative anonymity there protected me most of the time. "Most of the time" being the operative phrase there. There were still plenty of people who took great joy in being total assholes to perfect strangers.
Five years ago, I moved to Vancouver. The difference in culture is like night and day, and the crime rate is lower too. I can actually be myself for once in my life.
I'm not saying that every small town is like mine, but I *am* saying that every small town is *not* like yours. Seeing that you're only an hour from Cleveland though, I seriously doubt that you actually live in a truly rural part of the country. Ohio's pretty crowded though, relatively speaking, with about the same population density as Western Europe.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Low. According to MLS listings, 600k might get you a one or two bedroom in SF out in the Excelsior. A 4br in that neighborhood is probably around 750, and closer to downtown we're talking 1M+. This jives with anecdotal evidence from friends in the market.
When in australia, it was always the local office that had to get up at 6am or do calls at 10pm to USA.
NEVER ONCE, did the americans get off their ass at 8pm to call australia.
But in a world where 99% of jobs are outsourced to india, where will the american customers earn the dollars from?
Working at walmart? Its no future for america, you cant grow debt at 3x inflation for infinity, eventually something
will rebalanced, its like a drunk cannot drink his hang over away.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
not to mention, if there is a www3, all nukes from russia/china will target downtown cities
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Q: Why does New Jersey have all the toxic waste dumps, and California have all the lawyers?
A: New Jersey got first pick.