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Emigrating To a Freer Country?
puroresu writes "I currently reside in the UK. In recent years I've seen privacy, free expression and civil liberties steadily eroded, and I can't see anything changing for the better any time soon. With people being banned from the UK for expressing (admittedly reprehensible) opinions, the continuing efforts to implement mandatory ID cards and the prospect of a Conservative government in the near future, I'm seriously considering emigrating to a less restrictive country. Which countries would you recommend in terms of freedom and privacy? Distance is not an issue, though a reasonable level of stability and provision of public services would be a bonus."
Oh come on, if you're asking about this issue seriously, how can you omit what languages you speak?
If you only speak English, then your options are obviously limited, the English speaking countries are quickly enumerated.
Or, if you are willing to learn a language, then that is an important piece of the puzzle, isn't it?
A good place to start is usually economic freedom.
Try http://www.heritage.org/Index/
But to be quite honest with you, with what is going in Iran at this moment, your request seems frivolous.
I know I'm being a bit unfair, and that the mere existence of Iran doesn't excuse any violations into your privacy that you feel exist, but considering what is going on in the world this post seems ill-timed at best.
I think the word "freer" in this case is misleading, it almost sounds more like you crave for a society were privacy is respected and more protected, which I see as a different thing.
- sigs are for wimps.
Somalia?
Where there is great freedom for you, there is great freedom for others to take advantage of you.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
You can try Somalia, but if you want any kind of services - like a stable government - you have to deal with the government. This whole concept of freedom and privacy is relatively new and I don't think it will last.
Here's a list of countries by Human Development Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#High
A Banana republic with a little anarchy thrown in for good measure would probably be the most "free". Obviously, most people would like a little civilization thrown in for good measure. The trick is finding the right balance. My guess would be maybe one of the old eastern block countries. I would have no idea which one though.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belize
wish i could find a country that stood for freedom and liberty, American has lost this beacon and does not appear to want to regain it anytime soon.
I think one of the primary issues is the general lack of interest by the general public in maintaining freedom.
I've had extended conversations with people about why the requirements for air travel are such a bad thing and had them tell me they have no problem bearing their entire lives when they go through the airport -- they even have no problem with people monitoring them by video 24 hours a day if it means that they will be "safe".
Honestly, the general population is so unaware of their circumstances and has so little imagination that they have no idea how bad it can get.
If you find someplace better (I certainly wouldn't move to the UK from the US but it isn't so good here either) let me know.
Your imagination
I hear that Sweden is nice this time of year, unless you consider not being able to post any torrent files you wish against freedom.
Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.
Many people emigrate from the UK to Australia for various reasons. There also the USA, but be prepared for the international humiliation of having a stupid leader (Palin) once again.
Don't be stupid. There's no such thing as a free country. Sooner or later, they all end up being run by bastards. If you're really looking to be free, I suggest you move as far away from civilization as you can. The only way to achieve actual freedom in this world is to separate yourself from the rest of humanity.
most any country you get to from Newcastle might be good.
NB: Norsk is not a hard language.
I hear the end of the universe is a pretty cool place to hang out.
Apparently some good restaurants.
.
Hopefully you read how I qualified my comment, I don't mean it as an excuse at all. I'm just expressing how I feel about this in the context of this past few weeks. I'm not even saying that's a fair criticism of what he's saying, just expressing my opinion with regards to this with my current state of mind. Ask me any other week and I'll probably be more receptive to it.
Just being honest.
- sigs are for wimps.
Canada, eh?
Dave Freer is having to get out of Africa. It's getting very bad there. It is a beautiful land and based on his and several other peoples comments it's like having to leave paradise so he has not been quick to leave.
Some of his books are in the Baen free library
http://www.webscription.net/s-45-dave-freer.aspx?CategoryFilterID=1&ManufacturerFilterID=0&
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Don't listen to the crap you might see from the libertarians on /. The USA is a great place to come if your own country is becoming more repressive than you like. Here's my best argument ("best" at 12:30 saturday morning.)
#1: We have rights of expression, assembly, thought, speech, and, yes, privacy enshrined in the Constitution. All the UK really has is the continued good will of the crown (or, if you rather, the respect for history in Parliament.) We do, in fact, have the 2nd amendment (right to bear arms) specifically so we can unseat any tyrant who tries to take our rights away.
#2: As a culture, we prize freedom the way Israel prizes "never again" or Iran prizes "Islam". "I just want to be left alone" is the only argument you'll need to get any American on your side. Our two major political parties argue about how we collaborate on things, and where we should extend legal privileges -- NOT on how free we should be. (At least, not the serious ones.)
#3: America is currently in the beginings of its post-Bush era. We do reactions VERY well in this country -- and that means the principle sin of the Bush, era, "sacraficing liberty for security", is likely not to be repeated in the next 10-20 years. If ever.
#4: you'd be in the same country as /.!
#5: From a feudalistic standpoint, you would go from being a subject of a crown to a citizen of a country -- theoretically speaking, from a king's slave to a king's peer.
I'm not sure what your professional background, but if it's in international banking/finance you should really consider Hong Kong. Unlike Mainland China, it has freedom of speech and press (although Beijing will be tightening its grip over the next 40 years) and is a perfect mix of East and West. Although quite expensive, it's one of the greatest cities in the world in my opinion.
If your field is something other than finance, don't rule out Hong Kong - it will just be much more difficult to find a position in your field, especially if you don't speak Cantonese and/or Mandarin.
Yes. In theory, we in India too have restricted freedom of speech and government constantly telling citizens how to behave.
But, India is such a huge country with huge population that government is overwhelmed. It cannot monitor everybody. And the society as a whole is lot more tolerant. So in practice every individual experience a true freedom and anonymity. This remains true until you become too popular and catch eye of media. Which I think is very less probability again due to huge population. May be 10000 popular people in set of 1 Billion.
go to China, as a foreigner, you can do almost anything
I suggest you clarify what you really want. Freedom and relative stability can be found in plenty of places but each place will have quite a different lifestyle.
I'd like to move to Southeast Asia but buying land is a problem in my country of preference there. I'd like a tropical climate and a very simple and peaceful existence so I'll likely end up in South America instead where there are some better land options.
Good luck!
Well, you could weed out the countries NOT to emigrate to. The 2009 Failed State Index is out:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/22/the_2009_failed_states_index
I found their rating criteria exhaustive, but fair. It's basically a shopping list for what a good country should have.
...is to live within it.
Personally, I feel more free living as an expat in China than as a native of & in NA.
Generally south east asia is pretty good. China is communist, so is Vietnam. But this is really in name only. They do not make any effort at being friendly or fuzzy to the population. But as a foreigner living there, you can say what you want about the government, and pretty much do what you want. They do not want a story about you being arrested on some BS in the international papers.
They are busy building infrastructure so there is no money for fancy ID cards, camera networks, or much spying. Even in china, the internet spying is looking for chinese words, not english..
Language is not a big issue, as the last 20 years english is taught to all school kids.
Weather is nice, internet works good, 5 minute walk to the beach, cheap standard of living.
Go communists!
The law is a weapon of the government, not a protection for the likes of you. Surely you understand that.
You are free to say that you love America or that you hate America. Most Americans respect free speech. It is codified in our constitution, and the Supreme Court has consistently favored free speech.
The flip side of that freedom is that you are also free to die or, more likely, free to suffer serious health problems, and no one will care. The USA is undergoing the worst recession in decades. Many families have lost health insurance due to job loss. They cannot afford COBRA-mandated health insurance. The end result is that minor medical problems endured by insurance-less folks are simply ignored. These problems can eventually become lethal. For example, a tiny lump in a woman's breast can lead to death within a few years years.
In Europe, the state places more restrictions on speech, but the state also tends to provide more support to you in times of crisis.
Now, here is a revolutionary idea: tying more freedoms with more support from the state. In other words, the state provides universal healthcare but, at the same time, supports your right to utter any kind of speech that you want.
This revolutionary idea is taking hold in France. President Nicolas Sarkozy greatly admires American freedoms but supports state-sponsored social welfare programs like universal healthcare. I would bet good money that he personally wants to maximize freedom of speech -- including allowing outright condemnation of Islam. Such condemnation is considered hate speech in some European countries, and anyone who utters such speech can be banned from entry into those countries.
They have a "Quality of Life" score just below the US and considerably better than the UK.
... just expressing how I see that in the context of my current state of mind. Read my comments and response above.
- sigs are for wimps.
You're full of shit.
Agree 100%.
The majority leftist slashdot crowd, among others, has made certain that the US is going down the rathole quickly.
Freedom? Why would you even ask that here on slashdot. For the most part, slashdot readers don't know freedom from communism... and usually mistake one for the other.
Civil War is brewing. Should be a whole lot of fun with nukes, Raptors and Abrams on the battlefield.
Bullocks. Civil War requires geopolitical division -- and we don't have that. If Obama fails, the Republican Party gets a new rallying cry. If not, then they'll just reform or go the way of the Whigs.
There have been panderings of a coming "race war" or "civil war" or "red invasion" for longer than my father's been alive. And they're all crap, with an amazing ability to underestimate the religious feeling that "America" inspires in its citizens.
Stay away from Canada. It's horrible here. No freedom. You wouldn't like it. Try the US, I hear they have a magic president or something.
wanker...
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
I would recommend you to go to Montreal, Quebec, Canada... you would love it for sure, as for privacy, services and so on... you will have everything you wish for!!! Privacy is one of the top sensitive subject here, even inter-governmental institution doesn't share personal information on citizen... If there's camera on some street, they aren't allowed to record anything... Here you have nature minutes away, beautiful women on every corner and lots of entertainment... Most of all, you won't find a city offering that much for that cheap!
-I swear by my life-and my love of it-that I'll never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another to live for mine
The famous american chess player was notoriously anti-american. He fled the US to several countries. You can trace his life as an emigre. It serves as a good guide. The wikipedia corruption index may be of use, although I cannot vouch for its accuracy. I favorite Turkey, Japan, Sweden, Austria, or Denmark. Good luck.
Trying to install linux on my microwave, but keep getting a kernel panic...
some countries have better economic freedom while less social freedom, which country you wish to move to depends on which of these are more important. if it's econ then pick one of the top countries listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_historical_rankings
if you want social freedom, countries in soe parts of europe are better; sweden, denmark, new zealand if outside of europe is ok.. overall between the two, switzerland is high on my own personal list.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Finland, however has disadvantages such as, a very difficult native language, immigrating will be tougher than other nations, cold weather, and possible invasion from Russia. If you like Finland, but can't handle the language, you could try a different Scandinavian country, as they all share the same basic values.
You should find this link helpful, it has an immigration section. http://www.finlandforum.org/index.php
There are 11 types of people, those who know unary and those who don't.
Stay in the UK. Its YOUR fucking country, damn it. Stand up for it.
See, the problem with emigrating to another country because you won't stand up for freedom is that you have a problem in the first place. You won't safe guard your freedoms. So you move to another country and you will eventually loose your freedoms there too, since you (the people) aren't taking care of them. Freedom is like muscle, if you don't exercise and use it, you will loose it.
So stay my friend. Be that guy/gal, like Gandhi or Thoreau or Rosa Parks.
Unless your life is at risk, stay.
Antarctica has no laws that I am aware of (aside from some UN treaties; though everybody knows how enforceable UN treaties are).
By "freer" I'm not sure what you mean, as the word "free" is quite ambiguous; free from what? Utopia is a place that literally means nowhere. As long as there are humans where you go then you will never be completely free, because humans gain status by controlling other people. Play the game, or get out of it completely. There is no need for money down there, no violence, rape, or thievery. It's a cool place to live. Don't forget to bring your snow shoes.
Canada, eh! We still love the Queen more-or-less and it rains a lot on the West Coast. You'll feel right at home. Plus, you won't have to change the way you spell; colour, neighbourhood, etc.
I've been looking into this myself lately (US resident, hate the fact that the free market is quickly becoming an extinct beast here), and fwiw, Estonia and Hong Kong are at the top of my list. Estonia b/c they have a flat tax (20%), and are pretty libertarian-leaning currently (although their PM's party just narrowly avoided defeat in this last election, so keep an eye out). Hong Kong is a little crowded, and there's the whole China thing to deal with, but for the most part, the Reds respect the "two systems, one country" policy that's kept Hong Kong prosperous.
the only western country smart enough to decriminalize weed, and a staunch supporter of free speech.
yeah, we socialists were definitely the ones who decided to deregulate the banks and thus cause the collapse of the entire fucking world economy! Also, I love how you're telling someone seeking freedom you don't want him here because he doesn't share your views.
I'm from Brazil. I used to live in the US (one year contract only - an infamous H1B), Ireland and Italy. I found that there are types of freedom. Sometimes I felt that Brazil was a more free place than US. But when it comes to media, I don't think there are many countries with the US level of freedom of speech. Everything comes at a cost, even freedom. In Brazil media is not under gov control, except for age classification. BUT, usually you get sued by who you are talking about and may have to pay some huge amount of money for it. I would recommend Brazil, getting Brazilian citizenship is very easy, usually you just need to stay here for some years and giving up your origin citizenship. Getting a job... that's another story...
Well, if you can believe this
I live in California, which is really screwed up, but I personally don't feel the pain, yet.
I see Australia and New Zealand rank higher, but even in California you can buy firearms still. My sister lived in New Zealand for a while, but said it seemed like she was living in the USA, in the 1950s... whatever that means, maybe that is a good thing.
FWIW, the USA is #6, a few steps above the UK. We have some bad stuff going on, but in practice it is a big place where folks don't pay attention to the letter of the law in a lot of cases.
Of course, this is an "economics" score, so it might not be what you are looking for. If you want freedom, as in anarchy, get your money first, then move to some hell-hole where you can hire thugs to protect you while you do whatever you want.
!usa would perhaps be a better one.
Canada is good today, the problem being our current government may follow suit with American policies, reducing the quality of life here in the future.
You have to create your own little country. Now, since pretty much all the land is taken by other countries (except Antarctica, and nobody wants to live there), you'll have to build it at the bottom of the ocean. But it would be perfect! So perfect that you could probably name it something like "Rapture"! I can't think of anything that could go wrong with this, can you?
Oxen. Or did you mean "bollocks"?
You can run from your problems, but eventually you have to make a stand somewhere. People came to the New World a few centuries ago to escape persecution and live a freer life. They had that for a while, then we had to fight a war to get England off our backs.
Lately, we've been doing it to ourselves, at an alarmingly increasing rate, and eventually it'll come up again. Either we'll emigrate to Mars, and eventually have to have a revolutionary war there after Mars becomes intolerably managed from afar, or else we'll fight another American Revolution here. Personally, I don't think it'll happen until they can't keep electricity and oil flowing, because Americans love to complain, but they love their comfort most.
I don't know how it is in England, having never been there, but if that's at all what it's like, move out to the wilderness, and shoot at anyone who comes within 10 miles of your homestead.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
try canada, australia or new zealand. they will provide you with a pretty easy transition and both are free and safe countries. anything else is going to be considerably harder and require you to learn a new language.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You may not realize this, but if as an immigrant in a different country you will be losing rights in a way. Citizens, especially natural born ones have more rights in a country than non citizens.
You would be losing your right to vote, you would have a risk of deportation or not being able to renew for committing a crime that may not be all the serious for a citizen. You will probably have to submit a lot of documentation to your target country.
If you don't like your rights in the UK (which is one of the better countries to live it), just wait until your very ability to stay living where you are is basically at the whim of some bureaucrat.
Of course if you are immigrating from a country that is actually oppressive, you won't mind it.
I am not saying it is difficult to be live in a foreign country, I am just saying if you are someone who is so afraid of big brother, perhaps living in a foreign land is not for you.
yeah, we socialists were definitely the ones who decided to deregulate the banks and thus cause the collapse of the entire fucking world economy!
Hint: aside from outright takeover, what could be more socialist regulation of finance than a _central bank_ setting interest rates? There's a reason why imposing central banking was one of the goals of the Communist Manifesto for converting free countries to communism.
Here in the US we're being steamrollered by blatant, rampant socialism by Nobama sneaking in bills as quick as he can while nobody's looking. Representatives don't even read the bills they're passing
Bite me
You want an honest answer? The brutal, uncomfortable truth?
There isn't a free country. Anywhere. At all.
All people are the servants of their governments from birth until death. Whether it's a government of some tyrant or "the people," no individual is free (yes, in many places, particularly among certain intelligentsia, "individual" is a dirty word. I still honor that word and the individual man and woman. Maybe I am old fashioned...) from the government. I'm not going to BS you with fairy tales about how democracy is free because you get one piss-in-the-ocean called a "vote." None of us are free, I'm not free, you're not free. Nowhere is free. And where there's no government, there's (non-political) thugs and warlords, whom if anything may be considered mini-governments.
Many people have swallowed the snake-oil and claim that a "responsible democracy" is justice, freedom, or, laughably, exists. There's no such thing. Those that claim that we need government oversight over business forget that the people have already failed giving business oversight by continuing, irresponsibly, to do business with them. Claiming that you can fix the "wrongs" of business (businesses that they continue to patronize!) by electing people that you cannot simply ignore (unlike business) is even worse than corrupt business, because then you put the corrupt people in REAL power. If the people fail in making responsible purchasing decisions then how can you ensure they are responsible when they vote? You cannot. Government, it is simply a secular God that is supposed to magically be good and just and fix all the problems.
Here on slashdot and elsewhere we keep on seeing all sorts of bullshit governments on hoisting on people. From Germany's draconian video game laws, to censorship under the guise of child porn (both apply to Australia as well), to the UK's ridiculous privacy violations, to just about everything the US government does, it's a neverending torrent of bullshit that people just. keep. taking. All this talk of good, responsible government, it is just that, talk, and those that claim that there government is good either have governments cleverer than they are more able to hide the bullshit or are blinded by some sort of superiority complex or national pride.
So, freedom...? Good luck, buddy, because there's a lot of us out there searching with you. We haven't found it, and since every country on Earth has the gall to claim that it owns the land on its borders and won't like like-minded people actually own their own land and establish their own countries where they can be free--making us little more than just tenants serving our government--there's likely never to be a free place on Earth.
Welcome to Earth.
Wampus is, of course, sarcastic, but his point about Somalia is well made.
In the UK, US, any other democracy ... If you really feel so threatened, why can't you build a compelling case for your cause, gather people who think like you and try to change things instead of running away?
Believe me, you'll have it easier that way, and people will likely be way more prepared to listen to what you have to say than they'd be elsewhere.
Besides, you have all the tools at your fingertips, and, as long as what you do is legal, you'll be relatively safe. It'll be nothing like what you would have to face had you tried the same thing in Eastern Europe some years back, or in China or Iran today.
You could always go to Chile, Peru or Brazil, they have the best economies in South America and the standard of living and personal freedoms are quite high if you have the skills/money to live there.
Distance is not an issue, though a reasonable level of stability and provision of public services would be a bonus.
Careful. The more "Public Services" provided the less free you are likely to be. Those services have to come from some place. be paid for by someone, and put restrictions on something. If you really want to be free, you want the least amount of government possible.
The Fed is a bastardized institution that benefits nobody, and has very little real power. If we had a central bank where loans were given directly to those that need them for modest interest rates, we wouldn't be in this situation. But, as usual, greed prevailed. Oh, and by the way, communism != socialism, no matter what Rush Limbaugh tells you.
The Netherlands is a great place to live. According to wikipedia, 70% of the people speak English. In the major cities, virtually almost anyone you meet speaks English. Plus the Dutch are some of the most liberal people around. eg, marijuana, euthanasia,etc... I think you would enjoy it there. I am actually thinking of emigrating there myself.
"Which countries would you recommend in terms of freedom and privacy? Distance is not an issue, though a reasonable level of stability and provision of public services would be a bonus."
,
Let me get this straight, you want freedom AND government?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
take off the shutters and you'll see that both ideals trample on liberty. conservatives trample liberty just as much as liberals do. The only thing different is the laundry list of reasons and justifications.
Conservatives tapped your phone without a warrant, got rid of habeas corpus, threw away proper rules of evidence, tortured, murdered, and generally wiped their ass with the Constitution... that's all good with you.
Liberals haven't even made the slightest move to take away your guns, and you're screaming about your rights being violated. Disproportionate much?
(Sometimes I wish there were no conservatives... we'd have a lot less shit to clean up.)
Procrastination Man strikes again!
I recommend Switzerland. They have the most democratic and fair government system on the planet (from what I know).
The fairness of the election in their capital city is mathematically proven to be the fairest system possible!
The control of the government is very grassroots-style. People have the last word. (Read more about it on Wikipedia.)
The nature there is incredibly beautiful! I recommend living on the hillside of a green valley, with huge mountains around you, with snow on top. In the summer, it is hot. In the winter there is much snow.
And from what I saw, people are very relaxed down there. We in Germany joke about them being a bit "slow" when speaking. But that is only a result of this.
Also I don't think there are many other places in the world, that offer you nice broadband connections, and such a clean nature (with the water you are drinking coming directly from the glaciers!)
Even their military is so cool, they have bunkers in the hills, were they hide their modern fighter jets. And they are so independent, that they don't even need to be in the EU. (As a military pilot, you have a good chance of flying a F-19. At least a guy who actually flew one, told me this.)
The only thing you might miss, is the ocean. For that you have to drive to Italy. (Right below it. At Venice for example.)
I dare you to beat that package. :D
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Come on. You want "free" and "public services" rolled into one. There is a balance between what the state provides, and what the state takes away. Somewhere between the public services rich cesspool of the UK and no public services at all, is a happy medium. Try doing for yourself.
This must be a joke post. It can't be serious.
Everywhere else the Government either owns you, or wants to own you. The UK is actually pretty free by world standards.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Get involved.
Fix the situation.
If you run off somewhere else, when things go wrong there (as they do: entropy), you'll back out too.
Others will do the same, and nothing will emerge for the better.
It's like anti-natural selection.
Futurist Traditionalism
You even link to the site of Liberty, a group that actively monitors, publishes and criticises the policies and practices of the government of which you speak and is based in the same freakin' country. If you fear "erosion of privacy" then why on earth do you fear a Tory government, they should be your best friend? You have just had a huge scandal about the rorting of your MPs funding and there is a strong tradition (important with the kind of constitution in the UK) of privacy and reaction to government intervention.
You, human, are clearly an idiot.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
Not Canada. Nothing there but snow and hosers. Stay away, eh.
My favorite list: Switzerland, Netherland, Finland, Sweden, Norway. I would love to live in Switzerland myself: I love the direct democracy there, the peaceful people and the beautiful nature and very high standard of living. Another option is to become really rich! Rich people enjoy much more freedom all over the world!
The famous american chess player was notoriously anti-american.
Not to mention notoriously anti-semitic... like, "It's time to start randomly killing Jews" (yes, that really is a quote) anti-semitic. Seriously, the guy was crazy.
I asked a similar question back before the US elections, just in case Bush, er, McCain won. Someone suggested Costa Rica. Apparently, they're "America-lite." They have similar institutions - three branches of govt - but just not as useless, I guess. Land is supposed to be cheap. It has coastlines on both oceans. I don't know about immigration laws, but it shouldn't be hard to look up.
I feel for ya, brother. Good luck.
Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
(Sometimes I wish there were no conservatives, ...
Funny, I wish for the exact same thing.
They're going to be using their Internet firewall to ban video games not suitable for 15 year olds even though, allegedly, some people in Australia are over 15 years old. http://bit.ly/ausvg
Pretty soon they'll be saving the world from cartoon characters too.
You should consider coming to Brazil. You can do pretty much anything and you will not go to jail. Well, the only bad thing is that people can do pretty much anything to you also. In Brazil, you need to do that to get in jail: -> racism: beleive or not, you will get to jail and will get killed there. -> rape: once in jail, you are dead in some very cruel fashion -> not paying pension to you ex-wife/son, you will get raped in prison then.
A freer country.
Let's see :
In most EU countries , the same is going on as in the UK , just at a somewhat slower rate.
I don't think the US is shining beacon of freedom these days.
My country , Belgium , is probably still pretty free , though.
We just have some very silly laws that can be annoying (for instance , i man was fined lately for eating something while he waiting on a red light in his car ) , but nothing very serious anyway.
Also , we have a very lenient immigration system.
Also , English is a third language here.
Only problem is the high taxes and the bad weather.
Slipping shoelaces ?
it's a marxist state - of the groucho school
Although it's surprisingly mentioned quite a lot on /., howabout Australia or New Zealand?
come to Australia - we love pommie whingers here :-)
New Zealand, the last Western bastion without a socialist government. (Well... in name anyway) We just had elections and kicked out the socialists while even the USA has embraced socialism/communism/totalitarianism under Obama. Damn, even the Aussies got damn socialist government.
Unfortunately we do have a democracy (Force by numbers) which unfortunately doesn't equate to freedom which is what you desire. The best country for you currently would be New Zealand but if the USA once day remembers what it's true foundations are and starts adhering to her constitution then the USA has got to be the best place for any freedom loving person.
We're all running out of places to go.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
.....beautiful women on every corner and lots of entertainment... Most of all, you won't find a city offering that much for that cheap!
I don't think that quite conjures up the picture of Montreal that you had in mind.
... like your fellow Brits once did.
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
At least, as of a year and a half ago, according to the State of Privacy Map.
I'm not sure how friendly you want to get with all those beautiful women on the streetcorners...
There's no where free left on land. It's time to colonise and move on to the High Seas.
With the kinds of things we are seeing come out of places like Iran, Burma, and North Korea... isn't it a little bit naive and short sighted to be whining about freedom in the UK? Granted, I wasn't at all thrilled with the way the Bush administration ran the US into the ground for the last 8 years, but I didn't consider leaving. Maybe your elected officials aren't always doing what you want them to because there are definite flaws in the western dollarocracies--sorry, democracies (yes, money really runs them more than votes do), but at least you're not being gunned down in the street just because you're standing out there saying you think the election was rigged.
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
I have lived on the east coast of the US, the west coast (in Silicon Valley), your fine country (in London, 2 years), and southern Chile (1 year. I arrived speaking no Spanish and was able to converse after about 4 months of constant studying/practicing).
I think you'll find that if you leave your country for a freer country, you will find things in the new country that bother you just as much, if not more, than what you left behind. Don't get me wrong, I have very much enjoyed living in different countries. But I do find that every country is the same in that there are things you love and hate. It may seem obvious when I say it now, but if you really accept that ahead of time, you'll have a better experience, rather than just viewing it as going to a freer/better/whatever country.
As for job opportunities, if you've got the skills and have the will, and patience, to make it work, then it will work out. Silicon Valley is still hiring and moving along just fine, despite the economic crisis (at least from what I can tell so far, having just returned from Chile).
I am, obviously, recommending Silicon Valley in California. You'll find each state in the US is pretty distinct. I used to joke that when I moved from the east to the west coast that I moved to a different country. California is a great place to be. I've never lived anywhere that I felt more free. New York City would probably also be to your liking, if you are a big city person.
But to keep it in perspective, I would also love to live in London again.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the best in your travels.
Screw that man where is your British spirit?, you should be raising hell and over throwing your government.
I hear you man, I do.
At least in the USA we can feel free to talk loudly about the personal freedoms our militaristic government robs us of day after day.
The one thing we don't have to fear is prosecution from some evil electronic snooping agency....
Hang on, there's a knock on my door. I'll be right back.
Yet another person suggesting Canada as an amazing place to live. 3rd place on the HDI, incredible natural beauty, and the population of a much, much smaller country.
Over here, the government only messes with you (caning etc are common) if you go out of your way to be a pain in the a$$ to others. That and the government makes it compulsory for you to save money for emergencies and your post-retirement life. Only drawbacks, your kids might need to serve in the military and you will be fined heavily (or even caned; drug trafficking gets you a death sentence) if you break laws (nothing wrong with that). Singaporeans enjoy a very high per capita income and a very low crime rate. No Singaporean I know would want to live in another country. Although you seem to want "freedom". Ever thought what would happen to those excellent public services if the government tried to "get itself out of the way"? You can't expect people to behave, history has taught us that.
I live in the US and have looked at migrating to another country. Of course one that speaks english.
Why "of course"? Are you incapable of learning another language? It is certainly a barrier but by no means an insurmountable one especially if you build on one of the foreign languages you learnt at school. Besides there is a non-negligible (but admittedly far smalller) language barrier between English and American so if you do move to an English speaking country you will still have to learn new vocabulary and, if your job involves written reports, how to spell. Failure to do so will provide you colleagues with many hours of amusement....
Comment removed based on user account deletion
um.. those things are all the fault of the previous "conservative" administration. dumbass.
The Fed is a bastardized institution that benefits nobody, and has very little real power.
I agree with you about the "bastardized institution" part, but the Fed is actually very powerful. Their economic power comes from the fact that they have the ability to write checks for any amount of dollars that are not drawn on any account whatsoever. The checks always clear, and yet the money doesn't come from anywhere. They can buy anything they choose with dollars that they just conjure into existence -- treasury bills, mortgage backed assets, oil, gold -- whatever. Basically, their job is to "cheat" monetarily to smooth out economic crises. They have all the powers required to do that. The only other economic entity that has anywhere close to that much power is perhaps the US Treasury, and the methods it has to meddle with economies are considerably more limited. Basically, it can auction off treasury securities in attempts to borrow money on behalf of the US government. (I believe the mints are also part of the treasury, but they just make physical money -- technically that money needs to already exist on paper before they can print bills or stamp coins to represent it, I believe.)
The Fed is truly an unusual economic entity. I think part of the problem that led up to this economic crisis is that very few people actually understand what the Fed and other similar central banks do. Understanding what they do and keeping abreast of the specific things that they have done over the past two decades or so would have clued people in long ago that a huge bubble had formed.
If we had a central bank where loans were given directly to those that need them for modest interest rates, we wouldn't be in this situation.
I think it is hard to tell what might have happened if that were the case. I don't think the Fed making loans directly to individuals would have prevented banks and hedge funds and other entities from manufacturing bottom line value by creating derivatives. I do find it annoying that if I wanted to sell a treasury security, I'd have to sell it to a dealer that would charge me a fee, (one of the Fed member banks,) instead of the Fed or the treasury directly.
But, as usual, greed prevailed. Oh, and by the way, communism != socialism, no matter what Rush Limbaugh tells you.
Agreed. The fact that a substantial portion of Americans and American companies are now economically disfunctional yet there has been tremendous demand for treasury securities and dollars suggests to me that the role America plays in the global economy is more like that of a bank than a nation that produces wealth. This disturbs me, even without considering the notion that nearly all American citizens are unimportant to America's role as a bank, because it implies that a "run" on such a bank could force America to try to be internally self-sufficient in a hurry. I doubt it would be successful at doing so; I don't think America knows how any more.
If you, who sees the privacy eroding in the UK, decide to leave, doesn't that leave a greater percentage of the population residing in the UK who doesn't see this problem?
Sure, perhaps an oppressive country shrinking in population is a good thing, but what about staying and fighting to change things?
In contrast, living in the States, do I leave my state to find another state that has a more progressive tax system, or do I stay here trying to reform what's going on? Although not privacy related, still.
Let me clarify, I was not referencing him as the guide, but rather the countries he fled to. The fact that he was anti-semitic is not relevant to the op, but his anti-Americanism is, which makes his selection of countries notable because it implies that he actively sought areas outside of the UK-USA influence. Specially, he was detained in Japan and granted asylum from Ice Land. This may suggest that Japan is more easily influenced by UK-USA than that of Iceland, making Iceland a good candidate. Btw, I group UK-USA together because they share a common sphere of influence.
Trying to install linux on my microwave, but keep getting a kernel panic...
Watch out for unpaid back taxes! Even if you leave England for another country, you will still owe tax whether you pay it or not.
The consequences can be severe, as the amount owed will be compounded with interest. If you leave England for 10 years then return on a lark, you could find yourself owing a ridiculous amount of money.
This used to happen to rock bands in the 70s, since they would tour all over the world, other people handled their money, and a lot of it was in cash. They used to hole up in the Bahamas to avoid British taxes until the crown caught on and went after them.
This is true for Americans as well. If you leave the United States, you _still_ own Federal Income Tax. Uncle Sam will not forget who you are. It's great to fantasize about the life of an ex-pat, that is until reality comes crashing in on you. You are not James Bond. Even Ernest Hemmingway spent his final years wracked with fear that Castro's men would track him down to his farm in the American countryside and force-feed him a bullet. None of that is likely to happen to you. You'll probably take a series of short-term jobs in strange town with oppressive heat, no AC, and unreliable electricity.
I guess what I'm saying: don't give up on your country so easily. Americans and Brits alike.
Reasons to come here:
Low interest rates (make sure you avoid the big banks, they are looking for more and more ways to rip you off)
One of the most stable economies of all the first world nations
A government that is building one of the largest single communications networks ever built (FTTP in all large cities and towns)
Real choice in ISPs (as long as you do a search on sites like yourbroadband.com.au before buying a house and make sure that ADSL is available to that house)
A brand new fiber link to Guam being installed (which will then on-link to the US, Japan etc) to provide faster connections to the rest of the world
A choice of not one but THREE different carriers who will sell you an iPhone (if Apple gear is your thing)
A lot less of those freedom-restricting laws you seem not to like
An upper house with real political power (the government does not hold the ballance of power in the Senate and those that do will block government measures if they dont like what the government wants to do)
No internet censorship (the government wants to bring it in but all the indications are that they wont get the numbers in the Senate to do it)
English speaking population
Lots of ties back to the UK (being a Commonwealth country and all)
A competition regulator with teeth who will actually ACT when companies do something anti-competitive
A decent health system
Even if you emigrate to another democractic country, you will have fewer rights on paper than you have in the UK now. Typically, there are registration requirements and restrictions on net-related activities (such as blogging; journalistic activities often need a special permit). You will not have voting rights, either, and there's quite a bit of government-approved discrimination. Taxation could be an issue, too, depending on how much you're paying.
For the Commonwealth, this might be different for you as a UK national, but then you've only got Canada and New Zealand, I think.
Look, nowhere is perfect - sounds like you'd like to move to some sort of paradise, a perfect place, which does not exist, because people are not perfect, and even if they were, each person would be perfectly different from the other.
I've been to many places, and I decided to settle in the United States, more specifically the Bay Area. This is a country that received me with open arms, and as long as you play by the rules, work hard and smart, you can succeed on anything you want. Especially here in the Bay Area, nobody is going to bother you because of your race, color, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliation or anything.
May God continue to bless America
Do what all the bankers and arms manufacturers are doing.
Load up on tax-payer dollars then move to Monaco or one of the many Caribbean islands (especially those that cater to "offshore investors").
What you seek requires vast sums of money. Some people are simply willing to go to great lengths, or great crimes, to get that money.
And if you care, I don't like it much myself.
Try less developed countries, but keep the focus on large ones. India and Indonesia spring to mind; basically large and anarchic enough that it will be difficult for a regime to control even if they wanted to. That in mind, corruption is always an issue, but without a huge respect for state enforced laws (due to lack of resources to enforce them), you will always get a large degree of freedom. Perhaps Mexico or parts of South America, but large and less developed will give you the freedom from the tyranny of the state you seek. That in mind, laws and customs in such countries tend to be much more localised and community enforced, which brings up another can of worms.
I'm not certain what the _actual_ situation is in China, which fits the bill somewhat, but they seem to have enough coercive power (in a large military) to be able to control a large population. This doesn't seem to be the general case, since keeping such a large police force/military is very expensive.
Perhaps the question shouldn't be so much about the laws themselves, but the state's ability to enforce them.
"I think it would be a good idea" Gandhi, on Western Civilisation
When I meet new immigrants that don't take in to consideration a wide variety of factors in deciding whether or not a country is right for them they inevitably end up disappointed. Emigrating is huge emotional and financial commitment so I'd recommend spending an extended period of time in the country, either on a work visa or studying. On top of that the amount of paperwork to immigrate to any country is crazy unless, even for just a work visa. If you do settle for a long term work visa there's always the unsettling feeling that you can't truly lay down roots in a country which can be stressful.
If you're considering particularly New Zealand (I don't know if you are but we get a large number of poms coming over here) there are some specifics to think of:
-We're small so if you like big cities our biggest is pretty small by most country's standards.
-Internet and technology is expensive here. Our iPhone plans (just as for comparison) on Vodafone are the most expensive in the world
-We are a multicultural society, Maoris, Europeans, Asians and many others call this country home, if you're intolerant you'll have a hard time here
-Wages are lower here and taxes are higher, you get a lot for it, including a good health care system and a no-fault society accident coverage, but you're disposable income will probably be less then what you make for the same work in other countries
-New Zealand is a long ways away from other countries, it's expensive to get anywhere from her
Things are nice here and I love it. I don't regret it at all. If you're interested in learning more about New Zealand immigration check out http://www.emigratenz.org/ and http://www.immigration.govt.nz/ It'd probably also be advisable to speak to an immigration lawyer, but unless you've got the extra cash, you can definitely do all the paperwork on your own.
Edmonton, Alberta would be the northernmost city in North America
Completely correct: in Edmonton we get considerably more sunlight than where I grew up in Yorkshire, UK (about 0.5 deg latitude north of Liverpool). The main reason being that we actually get a lot of sun! What is very nice about Edmonton is that the summers are like a warm UK summer with lots of sunny days. Coming from the UK I used to find the summers in places like Chicago unbearable - extremely oppressive heat (30+C) and humidity (70+%) meant that rather than sit outside on a sunny summer day you wanted to stay inside with the air conditioner on maximum.
Of course nothing is free...the price you pay for the fantastic summers is a somewhat protracted and slightly nippy winter: -35C (before wind chill!) is common - but only for a few days. The snow usually melts in late April and the winters are at generally bright and sunny so there are some beautiful winter days to enjoy (just wrap up warm!). Having emigrated here from the UK I can thoroughly recommend it. I lived for a while in the US found their actual cultural values (not those they espouse) to be extremely different to mine which made it very hard/impossible to fit in - I always felt very much the foreigner. Canadian society has values that (at least from my point of view) are far more in line with European ones and I found it very easy to fit in and integrate into society here, especially since Canadians are so welcoming.
FREE LUNA!
1. In Vancouver it rains only once, but for 6 months. Oct/Nov through Mar/Apr.
2. Unbelievably expensive real estate.
A very nice place otherwise.
3.243F6A8885A308D313
"Distance is not an issue, though a reasonable level of stability and provision of public services would be a bonus."
This alone limits your freedoms.
Look at it this way, the more 'services' a government provides, then the more government there is. Consider how 'free' the UK or the US were 10, 20, and 50 years ago. Look into the size of their respective governments and how much the current governments 'supply' as services. With the increase of services the more restrictive the government becomes so the services are more needed. Government, when left to a general populace so easily swayed by FUD as the Brits and the Americans (which I am one) are, will always grow and become self-perpetuating.
Zylogue
When life gives you Raptors, make Raptorade.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
A good place to start is usually economic freedom.
I think he may have meant McConaugheys or Zellwegers or Wilsons or some other manner of Austin creature.
New Zealand? Maybe not: New Zealand's #1 Internet Dating Site
Rathole == Liberal California Success == Conservative Texas
Proof is in the pudding.
Seems like the country for geeks is Scotland.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Things are not ideal here, but it's not yet a lost cause either. We could use some more people who still give a damn about freedom.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
How did this trash make it to the front page of a tech website?
Never take the advice of someone telling you to live somewhere else when they haven't even been there themselves.
...now clean it up. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but why do people expect government to be any different than anything else? In order for it to work well, it requires maintenance. You're basically asking that some country that's been properly maintained allow you in, even though you've demonstrated your inability to maintain the government you have now. In addition to being a bit unfair, that's pretty defeatist. The U.K. is not unsalvageable, but if everybody with sense leaves, it will be. Your proposed actions do not scale.
If you really feel so threatened, why can't you build a compelling case for your cause, gather people who think like you and try to change things instead of running away?
In order to want to do that you have to believe that there is a reasonable chance of success i.e. that you would be able in instigate meaningful improvements to society as a result of your efforts. Part of the problem in the UK is that I think very view people believe that that is possible.
How about Sable Island? Miles of sandy beaches off picturesque Nova Scotia. Lot's of privacy, just you and the horses!
Services and stability, yes. What little leanings they might have towards reduction in liberties they don't have the resources to enact. In general they're very people oriented - most national university programs are humanitarian in nature. They have specific requirements for 'rentistas' (foreigners who come there permanently but retain their citizenship), but the required monetary income isn't that large. Down side, you can't get a job that might go to a national. You'll need an immigration attorney that speaks Espanol. If you intend to take up citizenship, you'll need to speak it too.
http://www.costaricalaw.com/legalnet/residency.html
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
don't emigrate fight for your rights
The CIA World Factbook would be a good start. Lots of demographic information such as language, economy, geography, etc. are available. A lot can be determined from the information available there.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Are you nuts? You can say what you want, with one restriction: our laws are mandatory over the ground rule that you can say what you want. So you can't insult someone because it's your opinion or discriminate one.
If I look at the 'Telegraaf' (the biggest newspaper) which is more and more moving towards PVV-level rightwing, I don't see how free speech is limited to the left side, on the contrary.
Your other remarks are also not true in the way you stated them. I agree with the PVV being anti-islam but I don't think they'll be the next government nor that they'll sent people back to morocco, simply because it's against the law (european law) and they're is no 'back', these people are born here so are legal dutch citizens
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
While Alberta has many things going for it, my friends there report that the place is socially conservative rather than libertarian. This presents its own set of problems, and I would not advise any Canadian province as a final destination, though Quebec may resist the changes longer than most. In fact, I would not recommend any existing nation, though of the English-speaking ones New Zealand may be the best.
...and my shortlist kinda worked like this:
- Ireland if I need to get out in a hurry, but still have family ties to the UK.
- France if I'm no longer active in my IT career, but have family ties.
- Germany or the Netherlands if I have a little bit more time to plan and still have ties.
- Canada or New Zealand if I have plenty of time and no ties (since I anticipate it being a one-way trip, given the way energy prices are heading long-term).
My requirements were; English-speaking, or a language I feel I can become functional in fairly quickly; preferably, a vibrant IT industry; a certain amount of distance from the UK-USA political axis (I realise that both Ireland and New Zealand are somewhat weak here) and a temperate climate; a reasonably strong culture of civil liberties (at least in recent years!)
Note that none of those choices are perfect, and German friends especially tell me that Germany is implementing many of the same anti-liberty policies as the UK. So I'm in no hurry, and have decided to stick around as long as I can and try to fight the changes here. Partly out of sheer laziness, partly because I feel if the UK falls to authoritarianism, other states (Ireland, NZ, Canada particularly) may well feel they have to fall in line too.
Yeah, it is pretty much obvious from the comment that the author of the original submission tried to make a change, and failed, really.
Also, you seem to provide ample evidence that the beliefs about low chance of success are based on reality.
Whine, cut and run is the modus operandi of the West these days.
What a bunch of wimps.
There are a few interesting communities which can be a wonderful place to live in and really good people around you all of the time.
I've been in Tamera which is a "healing biotope" about the healing of the earth and humanity and making models of living in peace.
I've also heard of a community called Damanhur which looks amazing to me.
I think that in such communities the least oppression can be found.
Go to Brasil and forget about oral language. Body language is universal.
Obviously, you should move to Somalia.
Seriously, though: having lived in Europe and the US, I have to say: while privacy and liberty is out of fashion everywhere, the US is still one of the freest nations on earth. The US is getting so much bad press because Americans complain about laws and government actions that pass without much controversy in other nations.
A few years back, I looked into emigrating to Trinidad and Tobago. The official language is English with a parliamentary form of democratic government. There are two types of English spoken: standard (British accent) English and "Trini" English. The latter is quite melodic but can be quite a challenge for an English-speaking person to understand at first. When I was researching the place a few years back, tne US dollar was good for six T&T dollars. This would be great for retirees at 6 times your SSA check -- if they would allow any in.
T&T is one of the richest Caribbean nations (due to offshore oil discovered recently). Tobago is about six miles off the coast of Argentina and both islands are below the "hurricane belt" (indeed, they are a port of refuge during the hurricane season for yachts and larger craft whose owners do not take them north and who still want to keep them insured).
The capital is Port of Spain (the Spanish ran the place for quite some time before the British kicked them out). There are many beautiful Spanish ruins.
Trinidad is the butterfly capitol of the world. They are very big into cricket and football (soccer, for us Americans).
Internet connectivity is good, but expensive (compared to the UK or US). It's actually cheaper (in the long run) to buy your own Hughes satellite ground station and use them as your ISP (of course, when it rains...). A very nice setup with dish and all is only about US$2500.00. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the (one and only) local telephone company. I believe it was $350 (T&T) a month for "high speed" (DSL 1.5Mbs). But, I'm working from memory, so make sure to check the current speeds and rates.
T&T ranks in the "high" UN HDI (along with US, Canada, et al.) group. Their immigration rules at the time I was looking were pretty exclusionary, though. Basically, you had to be a direct blood relative of a T&T citizen or married to one. Even in the married case, you might have to wait years to get your permanent residency papers. During that time, you have to leave and return to your "from" country every six months. Forget it if you're over 50 and not in either of those categories. Forget it if you have health issues (e.g., cardiovascular/hypertension, diabetes -- basically, any chronic, incurable illness). But, given the number of Indians and Middle Easterners living there, my suspicion is there must be another way (wink, wink) to get in. Also, the Caribbean nations were planning to adopt a uniform immigration policy. They may have done that by now and that may have changed some of the requirements.
Anyhow, nice place to take a vacation and check it out. Rainy season is our (northern hemisphere's) summer.
One "Aw, Shit!" is worth 100 "Ata boys!"
Conservatives tapped your phone without a warrant, got rid of habeas corpus, threw away proper rules of evidence, tortured, murdered, and generally wiped their ass with the Constitution... that's all good with you.
1) Liberals have not been in power for six months and they've already jacked up taxes. There's no rules of evidence when it comes to the IRS
2) Where was the trial at Waco or at Ruby Ridge? George Bush didn't burn 100 people alive in a house and shoot a two year old. Liberals did that.
3) The Constitution is a treaty. By inventing new federal powers, through the courts, liberals have changed the deal, repeatedly, and have broken it, by twisting the commerce clause apart.
4) Liberals gave us the Federal Reserve. So far, the Federal Reserve provoked the Great Depression, gave us inflation of the 1970s, twin assett bubles, and coming soon, hyperinflation.
5) Liberals gave us free trade. That has pretty much destroyed most of the US manufacturing base. When coupled with the just passed fire tax, that will destroy what's left.
6) Liberals gave us the IMF and the World Bank, which pretty much drive every third world economy into the ground that they can touch.
7) Liberals banned DDT and let 500 million people die from malaria.
8) Liberals refused any sort of practical registration database or quarantine and gave us 1 million dead from AIDS.
9) Liberals rounded up every American citizen of Japanese descent during World War II and tossed them into concentration camps.
10) Liberals consistently try and assault the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th amendments for whatever supports their own agenda. They bully right wing media, they threaten to disarm the country, they block the expression of culture in taxpayer owned facilities, and they place the burden of proof of compliance of every federal regulation on the business and its owners.
11) Liberals want to turn the census into yet another political circus and use census money to pass out bucks to their own thug groups like ACORN.
12) Liberals are against any sort of choice in schools for children, yet, never seem to have a problem keeping their own kids in private schools. Liberals just screwed Washington DC's kids out of charter schools, but will we see any child of any liberal attend a public school in DC? Doubt it.
Sure if you want to live in a hut and have gay sex, liberalism is perfect for you. But, if you want to earn a living, and do anything else, the jackbooted thug of liberalism is the enemy of all mankind. George Bush and other Republicans tried to reach a middle ground with liberals and it is clear that there is none. From here on out, the only answer is to get rid of liberals.... and how doesn't really matter at this point. They aren't political opponents. They are targets.
> Here, I have to present (and have recorded) ID
Being German to me this is a good thing. I lived 32 years without even knowing that something like identity fraud existed. Why is that? Because if someone wants to do business in your name he has to prove he is you. With his ID card.
Then i moved to the UK and learned about identity fraud. The UK have identity cards, too. But they have no pictures, are easy to fake and are send every month by mail. They are called "utility bills".
And for the paranoids: if the government wants to know where you live, they'd ask one of the few energy suppliers. To me it seems a ID card less system has all the disadventages but none of the advantages.
Here in Peru, there's a lot of freedom, people do what they want, stop a cab in the middle of the street, pay some money to avoid a ticket, cross the street even when the light is red. People dont respect rules. If democracy means power to the people, we have too much power, its anarchy. So please, come here for a season (some people say that Lima's constant gray sky is lil like London) and you ll see the problem of too much freedom. Without rules, people turn into spoiled kids that always want to get it their way.
When ppl ask me where do you want to live, I answer: Somewhere where ppl respect primary rules of society. (funny thing, i thought Uk was one of those).
How do you balance freedom, when is freedom too much? When you stop seeing the government as a problem but instead, you re trouble by other citizen, you re living and a country with too much freedom. As Sartre said: "Hell is other people" (L'enfer, c'est les autres).
Idiot. You think the tories are going to worse than labour? They have already stated they will scrap the ID card and reduce speed cameras.
Please do move somewhere else.
you deserve it, Im sick of the cruel MJ jokes.
---
Eww...that right winger's correct. I live in Portland. Nothing here but rainy days, drug-addict-littered streets, and us communists. You right wingers should stay away.You'd hate it here.
And tell your friends not to come, either.
One of the reasons you give for wanting to leave the UK is "the prospect of a Conservative government in the near future," which indicates that you most likely vote for one of the the parties on the left of the political spectrum. But the parties that has been in power in the UK while all the freedoms you complain about are being taken away are the parties on the left of the political spectrum.
So you (most likely) vote for political parties that take your rights away and then you want to run away from the consequences of your votes.
Just do whatever country you move to a favor and don't vote to bring about the same type of government you have in the UK.
I don't condone suicide missions, and I'm not trying to justify the attack on the world trade center, but, in a very real sense, the situation in (the Sudan), Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. are rather a product of a "free" people being not brave enough to uphold our freedoms the right way.
Free people respect each others' freedoms.
Free people respect other peoples' freedoms, as well.
Free people share when they have more than enough, and I don't mean sharing infectious diseases.
Free people are willing to put themselves out to help others on occasion.
We (including western Europe) tried to protect our freedoms by forcibly converting the "savage races" to Christianity, a completely self-contradictory effort.
We tried to protect our material prosperity by, not just giving people in "undeveloped" countries new opportunities to work, but letting the economic and political differences excuse in taking excessively more than we should have.
When we should have been setting an example of freedom that included self-control, well, look at how we have rewarded the "freedom" of expression in popular theater and literature. Why do we, as a society, claim that we are free when we are so willing to spend our valuable time and money on bondage and fetish? That's not freedom.
And so forth.
And, now that we find that we have raced to the bottom and won, protecting our "freedoms" and "prosperity" the wrong way until there is nothing left to protect, we turn back to the old ways of oppression. Copyright abuse and mandatory ID is just the tip of the iceberg.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
If you're really proud of the old UK, move back and try to change it.
Or stay where you are and get involved in politics there.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Unfortunately, things in the United States really aren't any better. In some ways, freedoms are more covertly taken away. I think if so-called democracy continues to get whittled away, we will be ripe for another revolution. Government is scared of the internet as well. The internet can quickly debunk propoganda. The internet is the single greatest threat to the Chinese Communist Party.
Japan?
(Yeah, yeah, I know.)
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
That's an illusion.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
like, "It's time to start randomly killing Jews" (yes, that really is a quote) anti-semitic
Presumably killing them systematically leads to a holocaust that's too predictable and doesn't require any thought in the early stages?
[This is probably very obscure, so for anyone who doesn't get it... here)
...you believe prisoners arrive at prisons stacked in naked pyramids.
I've been giving it some thought too mate. I was born in Wales, grew up in suburban Toronto and lived, worked and married in LA for 10 years then moved to the rural countryside back in Canada.
The federal government here in Canada still suffers the mental derangement Bush had, we haven't got our Obama yet and no signs of one on the horizon. Bob Rae was as good as we had but people here are as dumb and blind as they were in the US towards Bush.
Enough 1984-ish crap is happening here in Canada now that I'd consider leaving. Almost every functional process you have to do that involves "the government" is 10X more complicated and 4X as expensive now that it's "all on the computer".
Hello but I'm old school and think things should be better after you computerize something not OMG worse, Microsoft products notwithstanding.
And I'd really like to live in a place where a quarter of the people aren't addicted to an opiate or crack and live in welfare. God love 'em and all but these aren't the people I associate daily with and all things being equal if I can't live in some hi tech colony of clever and witty people then at least can I live somewhere where they aren't all drug addled criminals? I lived in LA at a time when freebase/crack was invented and holy cow talk about the needle and the damage done down there at that time starting with Belushi. And what powerful stimlants and opiates have done to north america and britain aye aye aye. "House" is more a sad reflection on our society than humor.
Here's the pros and cons:
The cops. Yeah, um, we're kinda spoiled by this, but those of us living in the UK, Canada, US, Germany and a few but not many more places, if we're taken by the police they'll be polite, you have rights, all in all it would pass muster on a "are cops following proper and ethical procedure" tv reality show. But in Italy or Spain or Russia, if the cops want to interrogate you the first thing they do is beat you up. So you're really on a short list when it comes to "civilized" contries, very short in fact. Jersey and the other channel islands, too, have the benefit of first world police. The Durrell is on Jersey too which alone makes it a cool place to live if you're anything of a naturalist.
I have a list of places as I've been keeping track of this too.
Yes: Uruguay, Cameroon, Kenya.
Kenya only recently got added to this list it was a bit bouncy before but the other two have been cool and have less problems than most. It's been this way for a while and friends who go there fairly frequently say it's still the place to to.
Not: Costa rica/Belize. Don't buy into the lie. Not cool any more.
Of the places left there's a couple that look ok if you're careful but keep in mind you're not in the first world any more. Havnoig said that a dentist in Thailand in a very average looking strip-mall will look like a Beverly Hills dentist with all the latest gear operated by kind consummate professionals who charge $28 for a root canal not $1200 like in North America.
Borneo is cool too. One of the very few places where the different races reallu do live as one: Chinese, Indian and Utang.
("utang" is Malaysian for "human" or "person". So, "forest person" in Malay is Oran Utang, "Utang" is what they call themselves)
And whats interesting about this is these are the three basic type of human phenotype and the only place on earth where they do actually seem to be able to live in peace. Plus Borneo is 95% unexplored for all you extreme sports enthusiasts.
Madagascar would be worth putting up with.
A lot of it's attitude, too. You'd probably find Brits and Canadians that would be happier in each others contries and yanks and new zealanders in the same situation. For my money they're really all the same, little but more of this here little but less of that there but they're fairly homogenius.
Switzerland maybe too, but it's expensive.
Uruguay is my first choice. And if you're really into getting way from it all, look at downt
Need Mercedes parts ?
I mean, have you ever been in italy?
-We won't even be able do do telephone tapping anymore, since one of the requirements will soon be "the person tapped has to be strongly suspected to be guilty" oh, and you can only tap his home telephone, too...
-We won't be able to summarize or say who is in a trial and for what untill the trial is finished (read: 10 years later)
-People with *millions* of supporters are never shown on national televisions just becouse they are against the current government
-We can no more process the 4 highest politicians
-They recently tried to pass a law where the political party with more votes would have got 55% of sanate and palament, even if it had taken only, say, 30% of the votes.
...
Could go on, but really, your country seems nice when looked from here...
At least public opinion still counts, as shown in the latest expenses scandal.... that would have *never* happened in italy...
really, why don't you try to change your country while you still can?
when you have Jonas "Snake Doctor" Blane in charge of the army, you don't fucking play around!
First start with finding what countries are willing to have you. The list may be depressingly short unless you really are a superstar.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Mars or the Moon.
Which is why so many geeks are interested in space travel.
But if you don't lose your chains before you go, you just take the chains with you.
Real freedom is inside.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Vote for Cameron and hope that he follows through on his promises. If he does, problem solved.
-- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
Troll, maybe. But not flamebait.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
I have been learning Russian, with a view to emigrating there.
For the price of a flat in the UK, I can have a very nice house, and live in a country that is not subject to mass surveillance, like the UK or North America.
Also, in Russia, I can see a government that is prepared to invest in its own industrial base, protecting the jobs of its own workers from 'free market' ideologues, and oppose the imperial interests of the breathtakingly evil foreign policy of the United States and its shameful NATO puppets.
British and American society are the most lacking in social cohesion, in any industrialised nations.
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Stay out of Newcastle and Middlesbrough.
Better you started from Sunderland.
So, you want to leave your country because the grass is greener somewhere else? You think at becoming a "refugee light" (0% oppression, maximum comfort)?
Well, although I think this is absolutely justified, you are free to move around, be aware that in most cultures you will not be welcome. You might have a look how your own society treats immigrants. This is what you can expect abroad.
Yes, you might find a job and you shall be able to make a living. Do not expect to meet friends, do not expect to be invited to our BBQs
Way down here, no one will see this, but it has been said by others.
Stay and fight for freedom where you are. That's the only real way to be free.
But you do need to know what real freedom is.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
The famous american chess player was notoriously anti-american.
Nowt wrong with that. The Jews are the cause of the vast majority of the world's problems.
My brother took a programming job there several years ago. Loved it so much he applied for citizenship.
Weather wise it's almost paradise.
http://www.tourism.net.nz/new-zealand/about-new-zealand/weather-and-climate.html
Seems to be the least screwed up government, too.
I think that in your intent to exaggerate, you actually hit very close to the truth.
..a different technique to solve your problem -- enlist as a red-cross or similar org volunteer and go see and live the life in Somalia and similar countries. There's a high chance than when you come back to UK, you'll be the happiest man on earth.
I might be asking a strange question, but aren't there a lot a of other issues to consider, not just privacy etc.
What about all the family/friends/links you'd be leaving behind?
Although moving country doesn't have to mean burning bridges, it's pretty likely to be a one way trip.
At least one family I know, did this, and found that the grass wasn't greener, wanted to come back to the UK and couldn't afford it.
The U.S. may be what you want. In a sense we are 50 different countries with 50 different sets of laws and viewpoints.
You want near total freedom of Speech, Religion, Sexual Expresion. Try California, specifically San Francisco. Google Pics 'Folsom Street Fair'
You want rights to own guns. Try Nevada or Texas. Last I heard if you get pulled over in Texas and they don't find a gun in your car your fined $100 dollars and given your choice of a 9mm or 44 magnum.
Want Gay rights and Gay marriage. Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and Maine. And within 10 years I predict half a dozen more will follow suit.
Want Freedom to Gamble. Nevada has slot machines in grocery stores, Car washes, and I understand for $100 they will install one in your car. Also parts of California, New Jersey and probably half a dozen other states.
Economic Freedom (low Taxes and minimal Government regulations). Nevada and Alaska I believe qualify.
Marijuana is practically legal in some parts of California. I have had friends pulled over by police with a visible joint and the cop ignored it.
Prostitution. Some parts of Nevada, and while illegal in other parts of the country, in some areas it might as well be legal.
Freedom to teach your kids at home, Many states allow this. Freedom to start your own religion and teach your kids really weird stuff. Unless you go to extreme levels you can pull this off in a good dozen states.
Freedom to drop out of society and bum around. Several areas in California you can do just that.
It all depends on what you want. Note not all of these will be found in the same place.
Note there are probably many more states that also match the above catagories, but I am working off the top of my head.
I am an American living in China. I don't know Chinese and that can be a problem, but I manage. But to say that it is freer, would be a stretch. I believe your best bet might be Singapore or Hong Kong, both of which are often regarded as the freest places to live. They are not however very cheap, but both have large populations that speak English. Thailand, also has a large expat population speaking multiple languages and it is very inexpensive, but not necessarily freer. Having said all of the above does not address whether or not you can make a living in those places.
"Be aware that a lot of right wing New Zealanders constantly talk the country down..."
New Zealanders in general like to humorously criticize their country: New Zealand's #1 Internet Dating Site
Come to the Netherlands:
- right across the pond for you;
- Everybody talks English;
- True parliamentary democracy;
- We have a constitution guarantying your rights;
- A Royal Family that provides you a day off a year and a reason to celebrate;
- Our Crown Prince is popular and doesn't talk to plants, plus he has a hot hot wife;
- Dutch citizens have no restrictions on travel (unlike US citizens, who are prohibited travel to certain countries. So much for 'freedom');
- very good social laws, including universal health care;
- very good public transport infrastructure;
- tulips, cheese, windmills, the red light district and coffeeshops;
- We do have 'mandatory' ID since a while, but nobody takes it serious really;
- Good standard of living (one of the best in Europe);
- relatively low unemployment;
- very low corruption;
- low crime rates;
- scores very high on the list of 'nations that feel happiest';
- Chicks dig British accents;
A serious drawback though is an excessive amount of red tape when dealing with local or national government bodies.
I'd say Belgium.
The country has some disadvantages ( one of the highest tax rates in the world), but as far as privacy & freedom go, it's probably a very interesting country.
Also, in the north part of the country, which is 60%, just about anybody speaks fluently english.
Added to that is the fact that the EC is there, which provides many jobs.
Interesting that two of your concerns about the UK are mandatory ID cards and a future Conservative government, given that the two are mutually exclusive.
How about one of the Crown Dependencies of the UK... like the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.
Both are natively English-speaking, have laws *based upon* but not direct copies of UK law. Personal taxes are lower than the UK, but the health care system is free at the point of delivery, like the NHS.
And it's quite convenient to get back to the UK to see your less adventurous relations. :)
The only down side is that at least the Isle of Man requires you to get a work permit for the first five years, and I think some of the Channel Islands still have minimum income/assets requirements for residency.
They're even nice places to live.
If you're bothered about the way your country is being run, why don't you do something to improve it? The UK is a free country, you're free to take part in politics. Start by supporting initiatives like no2id.net.
Every developed country has its share of issues, moving might not be the best solution.
I think your best bet is to go on a few holidays and that you will have more of an idea of were you really want to be.........
"I can actually think for myself and differentiate myself from a sheep."
Not every New Zealander can do that! See New Zealand's #1 Internet Dating Site.
Of course, we will do the deciding about who's innocent.
Whatever you say. Just say it a lot.
Seriously.
You can easily get a job in Cape Town, which is in the best governed district of South Africa. Pridominately upper/middle class with excellent public services and beautiful landscape/surroundings. One of the top tourist attractions in the World. Oh, and awesome weather.
Very high tech market too.
To be bluntly honest I don't think there is a country left in the world that isn't heading in the direction you want to get away from, at least not one any sane person would like to live in.
Is that you couldn't handle real freedom. First of all, real freedom means exactly that. It means far fewer things are illegal. Where on earth is that? I don't think it exists, actually. I'd say the US comes closest to real freedom. Someone mentioned the cameras in the US? Really? What cameras? The _government_ doesn't have all that many cameras. They rush around and get privately owned surveillance camera tapes when they need to observe something in history, like a car crash, but they also CANNOT CONTROL the release of these tapes when some cop beats the tar out of a citizen, either. IOW, for the government, the surveillance society that we have is a double edged sword, and cuts both ways. Real freedom is pretty much unrestricted access to personal power. That is, guns. We have 250 million guns in American society, and the way the president is scaring the H out of everybody about everything, they are selling at an incredibly accelerated rate. Therefore, the government has to consider their actions and moderate them, because they can't afford to P.O. too great a portion of the population at once. For example, in the years of the Clintom administration, much consideration was given to "gun control" that scared a significant portion of the population, and we got the rise of "citizen's militias" that the press dutifully attempted to paint to be racist organizations, disregarding the fact that lots of them had black members, such as the Michigan Militia. They weren't racist, they were simply pro-freedom and would have / will resist any attempt to collect up our guns with deadly force (if they come for mine, they will get them 220 grains at 3000 ft/sec at a time - I will die, but I will take more than 1 with me. Collecting up the guns is the last step before the government gets really jiggy with the limiting freedom thing... governments always disarm the people before committing their atrocities upon them. Not happenin' here, not without a fight. I'm a pretty good shot, too.) And the old commie bastard, Chairman Mao was right - political power comes out of the barrel of a gun, he said. True. My biggest fear right now is that the anti-freedom president we have right now, who is trying to destroy our country with measures that we cannot afford with the latest atrocity the cap and trade disaster that passed the house last night - well, my greatest fear is that someone is going to take a shot at him and not miss. If he is assasinated, and I believe he is the best candidate for someone to attempt it in a long time, since he is black, there will be a devastating race war that will likely see the end of the USA as we know it. Right now, the country is "dead" economically if "cap and trade" ultimately gets thru the senate, the remainder of our jobs will all move to other countries to be able to afford to produce affordable things, and we will resemble the economic landscape that is currently Zimbabwe. Some people are smart enough to know that, and, like I said, blame the president whose loyalty to this country I certainly question at this time - he has to know what this is going to do to the jobs situation here - but doesn't seem to care. He's 'round the bend on this global warming fraud - its amazing that ANYONE can reasonably believe that CO2 is a driver in this respect - it is a TRACE GAS, fer cryin' out loud, at 0.04% of the atmoshphere, and is FOLLOWING the rise in temperature, not causing it. But people that realize this, and blame the president for the coming economic depression brought on by this new nonsense, is going to get him shot at, I think. Hopefully that patriot will miss, or we're likely dead as a nation. But as to the original question, I think you're looking for Utopia, which is, as we all know, impossible in the world of man. You might as well stay put. Or, if you're really desparate, get a plane ticket to Mexico and brush up on your desert survival skills - getting in and staying will be fairly easy, then, if you don't mind picking oranges for a living.
Keep reading, here are the basis of the definitive party, one which in less than 30 years will be #1 in more than 20 countries with up to 85% vote ;)
The big problem here is not some guys voting in a chamber about what to do with you privacy, the problem is why do we have those guys there taking decisions for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#1 The western model, called representative democracy, is not a democracy in its own, just took the word from the ancient Greece.
Greeks made a "lottery" to pick the public charges, in periods of one year. Then, the government of the city, thus, all citizens (yes, but slaves and women) checked the work made by the selected guys.
This is cleary not what we have. We are not able to participate in such away in our governor's decisions. In fact, we are mostly choosing which group of fellas is going to make with our lives whatever the lobbies pay them to make us. Almost all we know it.
Then, what is the problem? we are only asked from 2 to 3 times every 4 years to select people we will suffer until they leave.
Of course, if you go against so, you are called anti-democratic or even a terrorist.
Let's make this a bit more democratic but without completely breaking this model (yet):
Present a party whose only principles are making electronic/non-electronic polls, and depending on people's vote (rudimentary maths accessible for everyone) , the representatives will vote proportionally. No LOBBY interests will affect public oppinion as strong as they can affect a bunch of corrupt representatives. No "party discipline" as seen in most countries...
So, the idea is gathering votes to have a slice of any "government parliament" which will emit it's vote as a result of a poll/popular-votation.
It's a joker party, as you can even vote it and "automate your vote to support party X", but you reserve your right to take control of your vote at any time!!!!!!!!!!!!! The perfect party for those who don't believe in parties, as well as those voters of the less hated, 85% of population?
This should work very well with most Pirate-Parties around the globe, as you don't express any oppinion at all and you don't need to make alliances. With time and increased visibility, this can only go growing.
In most european countries this can work really well, once visible, it will cross the commonwealth, francophonie and latin america.
Hey Pirate Parties, let's take the Parliaments!!!!!!!
Yes we can doesn't mean yes we can make you make it, mr pressie.
Yes we can means We can!
Don't kid yourself that any politician in the history of the US has ever thought (or will ever think) to themselves "well, I WANT to do X, but since the citizens have so many guns, maybe that wouldn't be a good idea."
Perhaps not in the positive light you're trying to shed. While a politician may not pursue justice for the sake of a well-armed constituency, seeds of corruption are sown in areas with high drug trafficking and gang violence [citation needed]. I'm sure that there are plenty of politicians who fear for their families, let alone their own lives, and by doing so fail to address the injustices that occur on a daily basis in those areas. Especially if their police department cannot provide them with the security they need.
You could try Spain, we have a good weather, beautiful ladies, privacy, right to download and copy of registered works if not for commercial purposes a lot of comfort social measures.
Dammit, people! Freedom is NOT FREE! You have to work at it. I love people who sit back and do nothing and then complain when things are not to their liking.
To the OP, you live in the UK. Do you really think there is another place that is practically better? You may not be in the best place to live, but not far from it. Get involved.
You're under 30, and never really lived under a conservative government.. The current one loves to spin, lie, and rely on knee jerk fear to shape the populace.. All the restrictions on liberty you mention are proposed by the current government and actually opposed by the one you're afraid of? What's that logic? There is a government that will likely give back some freedom, but you don't want them because they're tre bogeyman because labour tell you so?
By some measures, the U.S. government is the most corrupt in the world. For example, someone posted this link to a Rolling Stone article: The Great American Bubble Machine.
The U.S. government has invaded or bombed 25 countries since the end of the 2nd world war, all for profit. In Iraq, the U.S. government wanted control over the oil, and didn't care how many people it killed. In Afghanistan, they want to build an oil pipeline.
The U.S. government has a higher percentage of its people in prison than any country ever in the history of the world, over 6 times higher than in Europe, for example.
My prediction is that while the UK is probably the worst English-speaking country in the world in terms of civil liberties and privacy right now, it will be one of the first to get a cluestick. Unlike India, Fiji(!), and various other place that you might consider moving to, Britain has a long history of what I would call "bedrock freedom" and (despite recent expense claim scandals) a pretty healthy democracy with it. This isn't based on religion, or guns, or the death sentence like the US and other countries so it tends to have a more laid back characteristic that *can* go a bit awry at times (like now). Basically though, if enough people get pissed off at the idiocy of things like ID cards, they will vote for a party that will end that idiocy. Indeed, the Conservatives have said if elected they will scrap the proposed ID card system, for example. There is also civil protest and riot. Britain has a long and healthy tradition of rioting in the streets, much like France, and far more frequent than the US or Canada. It tends also to work as a last-ditch tactic (cf. Poll Tax Riots). In short, British society has shallow moods - right now we're in a mood to sleepwalk into a surveillance society, but I think we'll soon wake up and turn the other way.
"And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
The western-style countries are going to hell all. Among GB, France, Germany.., etc., there is no choice. Yes, the Central European countries like Czech, Hungary, Poland there are more free.., yet, but the situation became worse.., so in 10 years you are forced to move again.... Also the climate can be an issue: If you don't mind long winters, the Sweden or Norway can be a choice.
If you like the hot climate, the best choice is some tropical country.
The money is also serious issue. If you have enough money to live without income, some suitable developing country could be the best. The government does not care, you can do what you want. you can easily bribe locals if some problem occur. But be prepared for some uncomfort and unexpected situations also.
Or other secret treaties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
Of course that eliminates a lot of countries.
Not so long ago, I came across a website on which Germany got the highest score with respect to the protection of human rights such as privacy and the freedom of speech.
How long do you expect to flee diminishing freedom?!
Take a look to Germany for example: same thing. France: same thing. All over Europe: same thing. Some countries are ahead, others follow, but Sweden or Norway will -if not on their own- be forced to do the same thing than any other country. See the tax related discussions with Switzerland, Cayman etc. A litte "pressure" and there it goes, "freedom".
Beat the crap out of him and send him to Somalia. He doesn't know a thing about how happy he is being born in the UK.
Thought you'd never ask. The women have sex with each other. The men... well, see this web site: New Zealand's #1 Internet Dating Site.
Just to correct a little of what you said. Norway values privacy, but yet publishes everyone's name, age, income, tax paid, and wealth information on the internet that is accessible to everyone. No, I'm not giving out the URL, I'm on there, too. Norway, in theory, values freedom of speech, but enforces divergent opinions and speech socially. If you say something that Norwegians don't like, they'll let you know it through passive aggression.
It is legal to monitor internet use, but they've just stopped renewing the licences given to law firms to do this. Effectively, you could already share files and download as much as you want without fear of prosecution, but now the "large filesharers" don't have to worry, either.
Norway does have a high tax rate. We all pay a minimum of 36% tax, but most people pay 50%. Foreigners are able to take 10% off this up to a certain sum for their first two years here. As of 2003, you are no longer able to import your own car tax and duty free. You can drive a foreign-registered car for up to a year, apply for a one-year extension, but then you're out of luck. The average car here is 3-4x more expensive than in the United States, but it depends on weight, engine size, and CO2 discharge of the car. A new Range Rover that costs 70 000$US will cost almost 500 000$US here.
Health care is not free. Every time you see your GP or go to the "triage" centre for emergencies (legevakt) you have to pay a co-pay (egenandel) that isn't a trivial amount and varies according to the time of day and other things http://www.nav.no/page?id=354
Sick pay and short- and long-term disability is what really sets Norway apart from the rest of the world, but this is seriously abused. You can get a couple of weeks paid time-off for "problems with your neighbours" and very mild miscellaneous psychiatric diagnoses.
The 5-weeks holiday is not exactly mandatory, you do not have to take it, but you will be taxed at 50% for any work you do whilst you should be away, so almost everyone goes away. Depending on where you live, you get, for example, 12% of your salary so that you can go away on holiday. I will not attempt to explain how this works because it's very complicated, look up "ferieloven" if you want to know more.
Maternity leave is 12 months, minimum of 4 weeks for dad. The part about alcohol, which fits in nicely with a discussion about maternity leave, was accurately reported already. A bottle of 20$US spirits (liquor) will cost 100$US here at the State-owned and run off-licence (or liquor store). Interestingly, Sweden has to do away with these now as they are against the European Union's ideas of free trade.
The Winter here is quite depressing ALL THE TIME. If you don't like winter, then seriously do not come to Norway. This last one was hell, even in the southern part of Norway. Snow and cold every day for nearly six months! Dark, overcast days...you're asking for psychological problems if you are in any way affected by the cold and lack of light.
The poster I'm replying to mentioned "hoockers" (sic). You don't need hookers in Norway. It's number one in terms of one night stands. You literally just go out, buy some girls some drinks, and if they're in the mood, they'll ask you to go home with them. If they aren't and you are, then it's slightly more complicated. It involves getting drunk together at least twice.
The problems with Norway that can make living here unbearable are as follows. The Norwegian people up until 30 years ago were just farmers. They had no money, no culture, a poorly expressive language... Now, suddenly, there's a lot of money. The problem is, the farmer mentality prevails. There are, of course, exceptions, but the majority of the country is xenophobic, naïve, and follows the rules blindly. The people are very closed to outsiders, you as a foreigner will never be treated as an equal no matter how long you live here. In order to make Norwegian friends, you wil
I can't quite see how that would make us any less-free, given they have stated in previous manifestos they desire to abolish the ID cards, and the cuts to services. Not to point fingers but most of the erosion of our civil liberties has been the current nanny-state.
Good point re food security. I don't know the numbers for NZ (I am going to research it) but Australia produces enough food to feed 100 million people (for a population of 21 million) so good food security there too. Violence in western countries (except perhaps the US) is overstated by the media. Police data shows a steady decline in violent crime over the last few decades. Various changes in society make certain sorts of violent crime untennable. Robbing a bank ain't what it used to be. The one real problem Australia has is water security and that is _finally_ being addressed properly as a result of the recent drought that scared the pants off several levels of government.
(absolutly don't) come to Italy!
I'm working hard as Italy's Prime Minister to build a country where your criminal record counts as a job resume. Therefore if you're a thief, a drugs dealer, a money launderer for the Mafia, a murderer or simply someone who cheats on his wife using government's money to hire high rank escorts and let them fly on government's planes, you will have a high chance to become an honorable citizen over here and maybe also get a government job. To be honest, you could get badly beaten by our police if you talk in public about such nonsenses as democracy or freedom, and no newspaper or tv news would give a slight detail about that because I own them as well, but these are details only subversive communists should be concerned about. The country I'm building will be really nice to the right people like you.
Belize is English speaking and located just south of the Mexican Yucatan.
Learning another language really isn't that hard when you are immersed. Plan on a month of 4 hour intensive classes to speak/understand enough. Coming from the EU, learning Spanish in Latin America is extremely cheap, but the average lifestyle is, er, "simpler" outside the main cities.
I've personally looked into moving to South/Central America, Hong Kong, Japan, New Zealand, and Australia from the USA where the government is getting too scary even for a former military brat like me. Argentina is fantastic except for government corruption and import taxes that make most computers 2x the cost in the USA.
People in Canada are confused if they think their country is free. There are more restrictions on behavior in Canada than in the US, IMHO.
Political asylum is a mugs game. The grass is always the same shade of green of the other side of the fence, which ever way you go.
You need a better angle.
I chose Climatological Asylum. The weather is miserable in the UK (most years, though not this by all accounts), with cold damp winters leading to cold damp summers. It made me really depressed, so I fled. Love New Mexico, much better weather. And the grass is always browner on the other side of the fence!
Only the Icelandic people would think you stupid from fleeing on climatological grounds.
Freedom very much correlates with democracy, so look for a democracy.
Secondly, with rights come obligations. If your aim is to escape your obligations, forget it. If your aim is to find a nation where the laws make sense and enforced to their meaning rather than to he letter, I may have a strange answer for you.
You see, laws MUST be enforced. The current UK mess is exactly because it's a non-democracy where a club has created a clique which tries to stay above the law. Now, clique forming isn't a new feature to British society, but the current government has destroyed any value that it could have brought. The parallel with the US is uncanny - there too do you have very nice people who all of a sudden have been manipulated in letting an idiot plus cronies destroy the country and its standing.
In this context, Switzerland isn't a bad place to examine. It's the last surviving democracy, despite the US trying to break their laws (no news there). For someone used to the UK's "we don't care" approach to law enforcement, however, it may come as a shock, but that's why it's also so safe. I found the police to be extremely correct and very efficient, but you get the impression they have a low tolerance level for BS. Which is fine with me..
Insert
Come join the free state project! The best place for us to be is together as neighbors!
http://www.freestateproject.org/
ONLY 30%-40% of your Christmases are white? Look at the records for the UK - they get even fewer white Christmases (plenty of rainy ones though).
Excuse for why is your room always messy?
You included some kind of apprehension of a "Conservative" government taking over power in the UK. As someone who is politically conservative in the US, I can't help but wonder why that would be a factor. I'm not the smartest man in the world, but it looks to me as though many of the privacy issues you have have been put in place by the current Liberal government.
But if the Conservatives really frighten you that much, I'd avoid coming you the US. The liberal government in place here now is doing a really fine job of eroding many of our rights, including many related to what a person does, in private, with their own income, health care and automotive choices. Hell, our congress just partially approved legislation that would make all living creatures in America polluters, since they believe that if you're a carbon-based life form, you're destroying the environment.
Nonetheless, things are getting bad here now, and I expect that the tide is going to turn the other way in the next few years. I'm predicting lots of liberal/Democratic/"progressives" will be tossed out in the mid-term elections, and Barak Obama will be shown the door after one term.
So, you might want to scratch the US from your short list.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
..."prospect of a Conservative government"...
You should be encouraging this, British and European (paleo)conservatives are actually for less government interference, and more informal social control. Don't confuse Conservatism with Neocon.
Did you vote in the last UK election? No? Then shame on you. It's your fault your country's going downhill. Stop being such a F****g whiner and start joining a politically active group.
You ask inhabitants at the center of the tinfoil hat universe for advice on where to live?
Gawd forbid you live under a conservative government. You might not be able to claim victim status, go on the government dole, or experience true freedom without government interference. Just for the record, there are several million Vietnamese people in the US, many who came here on leaky hand built boats. Many of those who wanted to come died on the way. Same is true for Cubans. Mexicans have been streaming across the southwestern border for decades, just to get here and work in a free economy so they can support their families. Could it be that these people know something you don't, because your skull full of mush has been perverted by the likes of Bill Ayers? Funny how the less educated don't see the problems you see.
You arrogant, ignorant little shit. Stay in the UK and learn how to deal with your perceived loss of freedoms. I don't see a mass exodus from the UK or the US or any of those 'oppressive' western countries. I do see a constant stream of third world illegals pouring over the borders of those countries and then undermining the governments and social structures that the hard working citizens have tried to create and maintain.
While I've stayed where I am through thick and thin, I have a Plan B in case things get worse. At some point, I may need to accept that the majority of the population where I am disagrees with my values, and are also willing to stand up for what they believe in.
Why shouldn't I let them have their country the way they want it, and go somewhere more in line with the way I want things to be?
you're probably more free as a citizen of your native UK than you would be as a foreign worker in some other country
One thing to keep in mind is the culture you are used to and thrive on. I used to live in new jersey, and hated the place. I thought it was boring, and the people who lived there cultureless, and tasteless.
Recently I moved to guam and relized how good I had it in New Jersey.
Little things like small budget movies in big cinemas, theaters, underground music scenes for every type of music, which, cuased good music to be more availible because people were expposed to it, and the availibility of a varity of the printed word.
Also the varity of people that lived there and cultural backrounds ment that there was a many tastse and points of veiw floating around. Yes you can find all or most of this on the internet. but you would be supprised how much you realy on the stores and people around you(even complete strangers), to keep you in touch with all the intualectual comforts you have become acustomed to.
You may not think that this may affect you for one reason or another but what ever you do in your spare time, no matter how trivial it seems can be greatly affected by the culture, and availabilty of culture in the area where you live.
This is more then just culture shock, becuse its not getting used to how life is lived there. This affects the things you enjoy doing with your free time.
Its something to consider, the things you miss will seem now to be unimportant now, but you know I really just want a *:#? Lager that doesn't taste like skunk piss from the ride over here ! Stuff like that just starts eating at you.
If you want freedom you need to stop asking for the government to take care of you. Come to a small government state like Texas or New Hampshire.
And no, G. W. Bush was not a native Texan, and his record certainly shows he wasn't for a small government. Problem is that he ran on that platform in 2000, and in 2004 as the incumbent there wasn't a chance to kick him out in the primaries. So we were left with a big government fraud or an even bigger government liberal.
I left the UK and moved to Germany, about 18 months ago. I barely spoke a word of German when I arrived. Admittedly the main reason was that my fiancee is German, but I'd been uncomfortable about the same issues you mention regarding the UK and the direction it's heading. It's the best thing I ever did.
I learned German for 4 months, then started looking for work. I had an MSc in IT, but no IT experience. I got a job within 1 month of looking, the firm speaks German, but most of the developers speak good English. At first I only spoke English at work, but now I speak German where I can, English the rest of the time
I have to say that Germany is FAR better than the UK on most of these issues. Whilst they do have ID cards here, they're not electronic and probably only exist as a hangover from being an occupied state after WWII (the allies required it).
My advice would be take the plunge! Don't worry about language too much within the EU if you're going for IT jobs (maybe apart from France, but that could be just reputation).
todo - The developer's equivalent of confession: "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
Consider scratching Denmark from that list. Our rights and freedoms here in Denmark have been on a decline lately. Norway seems like a better choice imo. They even celebrate their constitution every year and talk about how important it is. In Denmark, an estimated 3000 websites are blocked, including sites like thepiratebay.org and allofmp3.com (only DNS blocked though, can be easily circumvented). In Norway, such blocking is absolutely out of the question (or so I've heard). Denmark is under a lot of control by EU. In Norway, that too is absolutely out of the question.
Also, if you do move to Denmark, be aware that you will probably have to pay a periodic licence just for owning a computer or cell phone that's hooked up to the internet, because such a connection allows you to view/stream public service TV and radio. They call it media licence, but it's also known as media tax, computer tax, or technology tax.
As you're a British subject, you will have 0 problems with residency, currency, or language. If you can handle living in a fairly small community (less than 100k residents on each island), Jersey and Guernsey have very very low taxes, more sunshine than anywhere in England, friendly people, and good food (they pride themselves on their agriculture) and . Most people are either into boating or aviation. There are tech jobs available as the islands are financial havens, and the financial industry needs geeks. If you need to go back to England for whatever reason, it's a short flight away. You can also hop over to France anytime and enjoy the Breton and Normand countryside.
Get outside your comfort zone.
for most people, their comfort zone is between 72 and 76 F and has many snack machines down the hall and chain stores/restaurants down the street. and a big, gas-guzzling car to take them there. and most places have at least the appearance of "cleanliness".
without that, anything else would be just to brutish.
"To stop the terrorists."
New Zealand is probably the best. Superb countryside, fantastic people, open uncomplexed society.
I'm moving there anytime they offered me the opportunity!
"Sum Ergo Cogito"
"Most Americans considered Canada to be merely another state "
Not true. We merely consider it the hat on top of our head. Minnesota, of course, is our bald spot.
So, you allowed your freedoms to pass in the country you're in, and now you want to move to another country and let your apathy undermine its "freer" state? I would strongly recommend you fix the country you're in, instead. Quit your job, focus on the problems you perceive, instead of running away from them. These people who are cordoning you won't simply stop at their current borders.
With no national ID card system as yet, English as the common language of business throughout the country, plenty of IT opportunities, lower cost of living and very affordable availability of healthcare and services. I live in Europe but plan to move back to India when I've saved enough. Coming from an upper middle class family, I find I had a higher standard of living in India - I never had to cook back home, wash my own dishes, vacuum my floors, or clean up after a party, the maids did it all. Its not to expensive to hire a house maid.
I know a number of Europeans, mostly French, who have lived in India for years. The people are friendly, but watch out for neighbors who get too friendly. Yes it has its drawbacks like the recent terrorist attacks reported in the media, but if you stay in an affluent satellite suburb away from historic landmarks you won't see any of this personally.
You won't make as much money working there as you would in the UK, but with the right planning you would make enough to give you a very comfortable life.
Experiences of your mileage may vary, its best to visit a country & actually live there for a good few months to get a feel of the place before committing to it.
Good luck & keep this thread updated!
1) Rich : did you happen to follow the economic news since the last 12 months ? "rich" will pretty soon mean to have some positive bank account !!! (please, DO NOT look at the USA's financial records)
2) Safe : sure, you're safe in the sense that you're still breathing more or less rightly ... but try and take a lab test to know :
- which cancer-causing things you have in your bloodstream
- which ones you are constantly breathing (not odorless & safe CO2, but the harmfull ones such as SO2 and NOx)
- then you can analyze your food for "safe" GMOs, having undergone harsh seconds of long-term effects testing
- world politics ? you're safe for just as long as the CIA's attempted coups & genocide-sponsorships (practiced ever since Adolf went down, by the way) do not register on the other country's mindset
3) Peaceful ? sure, for now, while people around the world STILL have some (central-banks-illusory) money to consume their mind out of their apalling living conditions ... ... but just wait for a FEW months/years at most, and you'll see a world war (the causes for that one are US's NATO expansion into Russian territory & provoking attacks through Georgia ...)
Easy choice: Somalia. You can't get freer than a country with no government at all.
tortured
The Democratic Party leader in the senate knew about the interrogation techniques used.
got rid of habeas corpus,
Democrats also voted for the PATRIOT act. Prominent democrats (such as Hilary Clinton) also supported the Iraq war.
Liberals haven't even made the slightest move to take away your guns,
Liberals are excellent at taking away property. Since the Democrats controlled congress (2006) there have been many bailouts costing the tax payer billions of dollars (e.g. Bank bailout, auto bailout, etcâ¦).
Since the poster is talking about Britain, the Liberals fucked up pretty bad there too. A good example is going into the war in Iraq.
Governments around the world are tightening the reins on their citizens. The only reason they can get away with it is because the citizens are allowing it.
I would say stay and fight your government. Fight the oppression. Fight for fundamental rights and freedoms. If people stand up for themselves, the corrupt and power-hungry politicians will have to capitulate, and the pendulum will start to swing the other way again. For now, at least--governments will always want more control over the populace, and the only way to stop them is CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!
But if you leave, then things _will_ get more restrictive, because you are letting them. Then in Germany or New Zealand or Canada or anywhere else, they will start to feel pressure from the USA, Australia, and UK to tighten things up. The US is putting pressure on Canada to tighten its "lax" laws on immigration, copyright protection, and several other issues. If you walk away from the UK (or anywhere else), then it becomes harder for the countries that are more free to stay that way.
Stay. Fight. WIN! And send a postcard from your newly open native country.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
#1 : Freedom of speech & so on : been working quite well, PROVIDED that you can get heard; otherwise, only the big talkers (media companies, Fox News/CNN) are doing the education/brainwashing. As an exemple, count how many americans have READ Noam Chomsky !!
#1bis : Right to bear arms, to defend country ? Good idea in theory, but in practice, a military F16 beats thousands of civilian M60s anytime ! Not even talking about Unamanned drones & Fetch-and-destroy robots !!
#2 : As a staggering exemple of this, look at the CIA's actions ever since USA fell Hitler ... sponsoring genocides, assassinating democratically elected leaders, ... and the continuing blockade against Cuba !!
#3 : Post-bush : a President that strangely keeps the same DoD person, Robert Gates (explain the contradiction, please ?)
#4 : The country with Cisco (builder of China's Internet filtering thingy), and all the major spying agencies in the world, along with the most secret & dangerous military programs (HAARP, Stratospheric bombers, Space-based military satellites, ...)
#5 : From an historical point of view, it's been proven that democracy are not rock-proof fences against dictatorship (Adolf & GW Bush where democratically elected, after all) ... Royalty, on the other hand, hardly ever comitted genocide - for their lust for money is already widely satisfied at birth !!!
#x : Ah, the USA, the country where the Georgia Guidestones have been erected in the 1980s, still standing, and who propose, amongst other things, nothing else than to slaughter around 6 billions of human beings !!!
Get your ass to mars...
There is no -1 disagree
Try India - too many people to monitor, a democracy, and very importantly, a Supreme Court which is fiercely independent and allows for the filing of something called a Public Interest Litigation (PIL) where you can take the government straight to the Supreme Court even if you're not directly affected by the policy in question.
If you live in the cities, you can speak all the English you want. Of course, it's less developed but the main difference is restriction in shopping choice.
You talk about all of the ills that have been done or enacted recently. This was done under your leftist regime! And then end it with the prospect of a conservative government. You are very confused
You want a lot of free public services, but a free country? Really? Do you know anyone that will give you something for nothing? Sorry, life isn't like that.
The poster discounted Anchorage as a city he said it only "comes close" to being a major city - Anchorage has a population of well over a quarter-million people in the city itself. It's not "close" to being a major city - it's a major city by any sane definition, and qualifies as a city in EVERY country that makes a distinction between cities and towns.
Here's the actual text (i>(emphasis added):
BTW, Prince George, BC, (pop 63k) qualifies as a city in most countries, including Canada, and is further north.
The word that you really want to describe yourself is "liberal." The root word being liberty. That is, concerned with freedom. That may include economic freedom, or it may not. But if your primary concern is with freedom, you are a liberal, not a conservative.
Perhaps "liberal" refers to freedom in some countries. But in the United States, it has come to mean "socialist" since the New Deal. And in order to support socialist ideals like universal health care, many socialist regimes limit the personal freedom to experiment with substances such as cannabis.
Things like the banning of "obscene" literature, sodomy laws, blasphemy laws, anti-Communist laws, mandatory pledges of allegiance, and similar, are continuations of that conservative tradition though.
There used to be a workaround for the pledge of allegiance in the United States. But since two days ago, it has stopped working.
Australia governmentally may or may not be better than some other places. However, when you come here, you'll also have the following things waiting for you:-
- Racism. It wasn't always so bad in Australia, but it's getting a lot worse in recent years. We had the Cronulla race riots a few years back, and then there were the Indian riots in Melbourne recently. I consider the racism an American cultural import, personally; it isn't an inherently Aussie thing.
- Alcoholism and drug abuse, integrated as part of the culture; along with the associated violence. Methamphetamine abuse is chronic in Australia, and good luck finding anyone under the age of 35 or so who also doesn't smoke weed. The Australian penchant for alcohol abuse is just as legendary these days as it has ever been, as well.
- An angry, aggressive, unintelligent, anti-intellectual population, at least as far as whites are concerned. You mentioned having some IT skills; that's a good thing, because the only other three jobs you'll be likely to get here involve either fixing cars, building houses, or agriculture. Yes, of course we have a hospitality industry, but have fun getting into it. My younger brother both holds a Gaming Liquor License and did a modelling course a while back, and the best jobs he's been able to get were tending bar and delivering pizzas.
- A spineless, emasculated legal system. If the above mentioned racist, drug addicted louts invade your home early one morning, (I've had it happen to me) you are not legally permitted to defend yourself, like you are in America. You also aren't legally permitted to own a gun without a license in Australia, and the police are selective about who they give licenses to, as well.
If you happen to get murdered by said miscreants, you can also rest assured that they will be unlikely to serve more than ten years in jail, and in some cases, possibly not even five, depending on whether or not their lawyer is able to make a magistrate cry into his microphone about what broken homes they had.
Unfortunately, you are laboring under false assumptions. There are no other "Free Countries" any more and one of your criteria spells it out, "provision of public services". Once you involve the government in Public Services, it has to be paid for, it gets paid for by taxes, once they attach to your money, they own you. See? America, land of the free...the free to be taxed at 38% of their income, 25% of their purchases, and just about every-other tax you can think of. All to pay for things that we don't need, and we don't want. A free country would follow their "constitution" or other governing document...our Government isn't supposed to charge an income tax...read the Constitution, it is supposed to charge tariffs, which it doesn't do...
that you have to spend 6 month buried in the basement of your wooden house, because the province is overrun by glacier with -40 degrees temp out there.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
For the sake of humanity, use the energies you would to flee, and instead direct them towards reforming your country.
Russia, India, New Zealand...maybe even China!
A true Conservative government would actually pursue less government interference in personal affairs. Conservatives want to conserve things (liberty, the environment, stability, etc..) Unfortunately, most governments are not particularly bound to their political ideology. Instead, they are focused on staying in power and building their bureaucracy. That doesn't happen by keeping the government's nose out of peoples day to day lives. The government has to always grow. We haven't had a conservative government here in the US since the 50's. After that, JFK was a fiscal conservative, but everyone after him has been pretty much a disaster as far as conservatism goes. While we've seen a lot of our rights disappear (the right to travel freely within the country, the unlimited right of a person over 65 to go to the Dr of their choice, the right to deal privately in cash, etc..), I don't think it is as quite as intrusive (yet) as what you face in the U.K. though.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
They're making a decent go at it in New Hampshire...
.....and pretend you are free like everyone else here.
Despite the biased view of UN/European sponsored surveys, the United States is the freest nation on Earth. You won't find any laws on the books curtailing free expression of opinions that even the bulk of society judges to be morally reprehensible (ala most of Europe). You won't find religious leaders jailed or fined for expressing opinions against various segments of society whose behavior their religion condemns (aka Canada). In addition, we have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of our person and property.
The stories coming out of England these days are so disgusting that I can't see why any freedom loving person would even visit the country.
In sum, come to America, land of the free.
Moving to a 'freer' place, unless you are in immanent danger, is rather selfish. I always like to take such ideas to their logical conclusion. What if everyone who noticed the erosion of civil liberties just moved away? What is to prevent the same thing from happening wherever they move to? The people that notice it happening are reacting passively. Eventually, what's to stop the whole world becoming that way? As to those folks who don't mind surveillance and invasion of privacy, it's not about privacy from your neighbors, but privacy from a government that has power over you. It takes courage to vote your conscience if your neighbors and your government, who might disagree with you, know how you vote because of a surveillance society. You just have to look at the behavior of the US TSA in the news to see how someone with just a little power to invade your privacy and act upon what they learn can pretty arbitrarily harass whoever doesn't look the way they like. In fact, I feel compelled to post this anonymously because I'm flying in a few days, and don't want to invite a body cavity search because I happened to voice my opinion. And beyond that, where does the surveillance stop. I might object to cameras watching me shop, but it might be OK for you. Where does it stop being OK for you? When your TV is watching you? When your cell phone camera turns on by itself in your bedroom? When they install wireless cameras in the shower? I don't know about you, but to me having some privacy is fundamental to human dignity. The less I can control when I am watched, they less dignity I feel I have. Not knowing about the watchers (NSA snooping) does not diminish the loss of dignity. There is a balance, of course. You give up some privacy, some liberty, in exchange for security. The ironic thing is that if you give up enough liberty, you lose security as well, as the entity you have given up your liberty to has the power to harm you.
Where laws have no meaning.
We do have the standard set of copyright laws and such, but expect no enforcement. Same with traffic laws and such.
Privacy here is generally respected, just as long as you aren't a celebrity or high-level official
Um, Excuse me, but why is every apostrophe (" ' ") that you use seem to get replaced with 5 extra characters? This "youÃ(TM)re" business is getting rather old...can you provide a post that explains this behavior?
Thanks,
--Kisses!!
Maybe Microsoft "smart quotes" are the culprit?
Why use the ASCII that everyone agrees on, when you can just make up your own shit?
Just to clarify, Prince George is further north than Edmonton at 53Â54' versus 53Â34'. It is not further north than Anchorage (61Â). (All latitudes are in the northern hemisphere, of course.)
Slashcode fails at unicode and also high ASCII - the  symbols above should be degree symbols.
Beside the fact, that in most other countries you have to learn a new language. In most western countries you will find, ID cards, repressions, observation of the public, monitoring communication activities. The last one is done in every EU country. Cameras are not limited to the UK and even the Spanish have ID cards with fingerprints (was Franco's idea and I thought the idea came from Otto Schily). Instead of fleeing find a way to fight it. And one step to do so is, to get organized. You cannot win if you are not willing to leave the house.
Look we have the very same problems everywhere. So it might help to fight. Think about public health care. It was not invented by the establishment. People fought for it. So if you want to deorwellize the UK, Europe and the rest of the world. Start in your home country. Running away is no solution.
If you want to go to Germany, well we are building a new Internet censorship infrastructure, or go to France they just try to establish a three strike thingy for the MI. Or go to Sweden their already ahead of Germany. As I already said, there is no EU country without total communication monitoring. So you might think. The US, Australia, or Canada is an option. Well forget it, they are doing the very same thing. You might find countries like Columbia or Venezuela without more attractive. However, they have other problems.
So I only could ask you, beg you. Stay and fight, and not run and hide.
Hundreds if not thousands of U.K. citizens have already done it.
Among other things, Chile has a corruption free, stable economy, and the government does not fear the people and the people do not fear the goverment. Neighbors leave neighbors alone, unless you go actively looking for friends. So, does the government. Chile is one of the few countries that is not going to debt to monitor every citizen, every second of day. It actually maintains a budget surplus.
Here is an example of the respect the people have for the police. The chief of police was recently killed in a helicopter crash in Panama. More people lined the streets around the country, and left flowers at police stations all over the country, than when the president or other politicians died. Police in Chile are viewed as not only as trust worthy, but almost family on a nation wide basis. They are able to better enforce the laws, because even the criminals view them as objective third-parties. They are not worried the police are going to beat con
The list of reasons is way way too long for why Chile, but try this site for a lot more details:
Chile
Living in Chile
"though a reasonable level of stability and provision of public services would be a bonus."
Unfortunately, all the oppression you speak of has resulted at the desire for the above. People use government to keep their jobs, pay their medical expenses and other such things. If I can force you to pay me more, pay my bills and fight my wars, everything will be great.
If you are not prepared to fight for liberty then you don't deserve it.
I am an Indian and I have travelled and lived all over the world. No country is as free as India. Always has been
and still is the freest society of humans on this planet.
Wherever you emigrate to, you'll enjoy less freedom that the locals, because as a (legal) alien, you usually don't enjoy all Citizen's rights. Effectively, you'll be at the mercy of the foreign government even more than at home. But if you're willing to accept that risk, there are plenty of countries outside the US/EU sphere that you can feel comfortable in... as long as you don't collide with their local taboos and social rules.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Civil War is brewing. Should be a whole lot of fun with nukes, Raptors and Abrams on the battlefield.
Bullocks. Civil War requires geopolitical division -- and we don't have that. If Obama fails, the Republican Party gets a new rallying cry. If not, then they'll just reform or go the way of the Whigs.
What if Obama fails and re-images failure as victory?
And the media likes it?
And anyone of the media who doesn't agree is deemed "unfair" and shouted down?
And...
Actually, I agree with you, because, although there are enough people opposed to tyranny in principle, I don't see much sign that there are enough prepared to do anything about it.
One problem with leaving the UK is that assaults on civil liberties are happening in other Western democracies too. So instead of leaving the country, you should fight back.
One way to do this is to join the Pirate Party UK, which is focussed on defending your civil liberties from governments and corporations that want to destroy them. We're for freedom of speech (and therefore against people having their net access cut off), against ID cards, against software patents, and against the government snooping on your email and phone calls.
One objection is that campaigning doesn't achieve results. This is untrue: Pirate Party achieved 7% in the recent Swedish election, and since the Internet and issues involved are worldwide, there's no reason PPUK can't achieve similar results. In fact, we should be able to achieve an even higher vote share because:
Why don't they fix slashcode so it accepts a larger set of html entities? the degree symbol, the ™ and © html entities, the pound and yen symbols ... it can't be THAT much work ...
And if you move to the south or to some of the islands (Tenerife, Ibiza) you donÂt even need to know how to speak spanish.
The rest of us learn English as a matter of fact, and then one or two more languages as needed.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
USians can't just come and work in the UK.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
With all the ongoing censorship?
I lived in Kuala Lumpur for a few years, and I have to say that your vision of Malaysia is quite rosy.
Lets forget about the religious police and the de facto apartheid that exists in the country, you have no access to a free press of any denomination.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is all good and dandy to ignore this inconvenience, the fact is that Singapore is a tiny autocracy were democratic politics don't exist and the basic respect of all human dignity can be ignored if the state (i.e. the rulers) deem this necessary.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You clearly know nothing about Singapore.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Antarctica, no government pushing you around out there.
CERN [http://cern.ch] is a very good option. You can either live in Switzerland or in France. They accept English-only speakers (actually I work with a few). The salaries are good, the food is pretty good and the environment is awesome! Plus they have their own Internet Exchange Point! You will never be the bottleneck again! :D
Can you check in a map where Ancient Egypt and Rome are?
Check also Inca and Maya cultures.
We are talking hundreds or even one or two thousand years.
Why do some people believe on this geographical (or climatic) predestination bullshit?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Instead of abandoning it, have you considered changing it from within? Its sometimes hard (ok, sometimes very hard), but might be very worthwhile, not just for you, but for your fellow freedom-loving citizens. Why I say this is because I genuinely believe that the UK is in general a fairly liberal western democracy. Perhaps less so than it used to be, but certainly more so than say the US, where the republicans (and lately democrats) have had a fairly consistent bent on being more totalitarian with each generation. I am in no way comparing it to Iran or Iraq or North Korea, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar (Burma), China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia... the list of countries where many more would like to get out (than get into) is long. Other British Commonwealth countries are moving in the general direction of the US and UK (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India), although some to a lesser/greater degree depending on exactly what your bent is. Changing from within is difficult (see Burma, China, Iran, etc.), but may be a better solution to just moving on. My advice is free, but consider it at least a little. Erosion of freedom is a constant concern everywhere. Abandoning a fight where you are, only to face a similar fight in a new country in only a few years won't make your job there any easier. At the very least, opt for a country that has genuine democratic rule, as opposed to a 'strong boss', corrupt and paid (see countries mentioned (Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar (Burma), China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.).
UKians can vote in both local an EU elections. You can't vote in national elections afaik.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is funny that you don't look at your own countrymen for a clue.
Spain has become one of the more liberal countries in the world and you can pretty much pursue your happiness as you see fit without the meddling of the state at every point.
Having said this, the Conservatives just promised a couple of days ago to start to dismantle the surveillance state that the closet socialists in Labour have built during the last 12 years.
I heard their statement on this regard and I was genuinely surprised and pleased, so maybe you are being a bit to irratonal about this ....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Anchorage is a not a City by any sane definition. It's just an airport, four high rise buildings, a bunch of shacks and host of things named after Ted Stevens. The best thing about Anchorage is that Alaska is only an hour away.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
that your idea of what a "responsible libertarian" is is permanently fringe?
that what people want, the world over, strictly out of simple human desires/ shortcomings, is permanently and forever at war with your conception of some sort of ideal. to bring the usa into the equation is a simple red herring. you are attempting to blame basic aspects of simple human nature on some sort of american mind control experiment, apparently. if the usa never existed, you'd have the same complaints
you will never ever see what you think your ideals stand for appear in this world as a major societal structure, anywhere. simply because your entire ideological formulation is based on a failed understanding of basic human nature. see? that what has to be done, is you have to understand human nature better
the communists also had a failed understanding of how the world and simple human nature works. communism on paper is actually completely wonderful, and those who formulated it actually and genuinely believed they were making the world a better place. until all the stalins that come along and turn the country into a new monarchy, and without that pesky thing called selfish desire for oneself, one's family, one's immediate community... that actually leads to a richer society for all, in a way better than any communist plan ever could
you are not the first naive ideologue in this world, and you won't be the last. but what you share in common with all utopianists throughout history is a fundamentally flawed understanding of the human beings you inhabit the planet with. you have a passion, but your passion is based upon a model of human behavior THAT NO HUMAN GROUP HAS EVER BEHAVED OR EVER WILL
a revolution IS necessary
in your mind and how you view your world and the people who live in it
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Even though I think you are probably a troll, anyone who expects to find much improved civil liberties outside the UK (now or in the future) is an idiot. Maybe if you move to some undeveloped 3rd world shit hole, you would probably have to fend for yourself against flesh-eating tropical diseases, lions and random genocidal bandits, but at least the Government wouldn't be logging every thoughtcrime being committed as you browse 4chan on a dial-up connection.
The U.S. would have been a good choice, as long as it seemed Republicans would continue to dominate the Presidency, and repel the Democrats' impulses toward socialism and authoritarianism. Unfortunately, America is headed toward repeating the mistakes not only of European Socialism, but Latin and South American State (Nationalized) Socialism.
Whatever you do, don't look to the U.S. A free country it is not, under the Democrats.
Civil War requires geopolitical division
Not really, or not initially (that can develop later). What it requires is two groups of people living approximately together who totally disagree about who should be in charge. And it is quite possible to have a civil war without any trace of secessionism; e.g., in the English Civil War, both sides wanted the whole of England and had no plans to split the country.
In the US, everyone agrees that the President is in charge and that they are in for a limited term. You might or might not particularly like the incumbent, but you at least agree over who is in the office and that you don't need to have an uprising to kick them out. These are powerful reasons why a civil war is unlikely for now (and probably less likely than back after the 2000 election, to be honest). You have problems, yes, but a civil war is nowhere near one of them.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
You can be my neighbor in Memphis TN. Heres a 6-acre empty lot for US$100k. Work locally in IT at FedEx or International Paper or Service Master. Or like me, hop on Northwest-Airlines and contract all over the USA! We blow up stuff on weekends, ride 4wheelers, build Wallthings, normal stuff.
My response to you is the same one I give to U.S. folks who thinks of moving to Canada for many of the same reasons you've talked about.
You fucked it up. You fix it.
I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to work and work in other countries. Unlike some of the other people posting here, I view language as an opportunity, not as a barrier. I wouldn't mind getting to know France better, but am not sure how I could swing it (space stuff in French Guyana?). I think Germany is a great place to visit - everything works - but I think it would drive me crazy if I tried to live there. I've spent time in Costa Rica with telescopes, but a country with no native engineering or industrial heritage is not for me.
As a Canadian, Australia bordered on anti-climax when i went there in 2002: at times it felt like I hadn't gone anywhere. I've heard this from others, and am expecting this when I go to New Zealand next July, en route to the Cook Islands for the eclipse.
...laura
I live in the US, and I suggest not here. The way some things are looking we may be heading down the road the UK is on. Something to keep in mind is that Scotland gets to decide in 2010 if they want to be a free country. That could be an interesting thing. I don't know what the Republic of Ireland is like as far as freedom, but I have visited it and it seems nice enough. If language isn't a problem I have heard some nice things about Germany, though I have also heard bad things. Switzerland could also be an option. Just some places to look into.
NEW HAMPSHIRE, it is the most free place on earth.
Mate I just moved (with my GF) to UK. Everything is reltive...guess where I'm coming from...It's a european country, with nice people, nice food, nice fashion, but still a freaking PM that goes with prostitutes... UK seems to be the most free country of the world and actually the fact you don't have a compulsory ID card is shocking to me... Good luck!
Want freedom? Come to Portugal. Since no one here cares about anything no one will bother to restrict your freedom in any way.
I'd say Hong Kong is your best best, and learning both Cantonese and Mandarin. China will be the powerhouse economy for the next 20 or so years at least.
Wait four more years, then see if the US is still freer or not. Wish us, US, luck.
You got it, I'll stay far away. There are too many freaks and commies on the left cost and in the eastern block states. They'll soon be as broke as Eastern Europe after the demise of the Soviet Union.
Unfortunately the last best defense against tyranny is the personally-owned firearm. Your government already took your guns and they are now no longer afraid of you. They think they can do whatever they want and they are probably right.
There are a few places in the United States, the Four Corners states (NM, AZ, UT, CO), Idaho, Montana, Texas and New Hampshire. They haven't disarmed us yet and they are not going to. I've tried to look at other countries to move to and there's truly nowhere for somebody like me to run. Join us where we still have a chance to fight and eventually we may just liberate the UK again so you can go back.
Backwoods of East Tennessee. You'll have to lean a new language, though.
Yes! Yes! It's very true! Stay away, righties! Stay awaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!!!
That is all.
The Three R's of Portland
or
Why Portland Sucks
"Latte Town" was coined a few years back and is the most appropriate term for the City of Portland that I have ever heard. A Latte town consists of mostly white, educated baby boomers and young single people. The inhabitants of the town are usually newcomers who have priced out all the original inhabitants. These towns are usually expensive, pretentious, abound in natural fibers and are laid back on the surface. Latte towns like Portland pride themselves on their most cherished concepts of diversity and inclusiveness. Most Portlanders accept this myth as Gospel but upon close examination Portland's dirty little secret is revealed. Portland is an overwhelmingly white, non-ethnic city. It is as vanilla as it gets so it makes one wonder what all the celebrating of diversity is all about. Drive through any neighborhood surrounding the downtown area and the impression that you get is that Portland is nothing more than a series of elitist ghettos compromised of rich white homosexuals, rich white yuppies, rich white hippies, rich white trust funders, and rich white kids from the suburbs pretending to be street people. Where's the diversity? Well it doesn't exist but the average Portlander likes the concept and in their eyes the different shades of rich whites all constituent diversity. In a series of articles I will attempt to breakdown and explain these subtle distinctions between the various factions of lily white, latte people that make Portland what it is.
The Artist-Intellectual
The visitor or newcomer to Portland is bound to be struck by the sheer numbers that belong to this group. They seem to be everywhere and are in fact everywhere. They are the reason that all the coffee shops have tables and chairs. The artist-intellectual fancies himself as a poet, a writer, a musician, a filmmaker, etc. You get the drift. They spend most of their days idling around the coffee establishments that one finds every 10 feet. They are usually equipped with a notebook that they use for their poems, journals or their artwork. No one ever gets to see the contents of these notebooks. More often than not they have a beaten and weathered paper back copy of some book authored by Kafka or William S. Boroughs. They love to discuss their favorite subject, themselves. Given the opportunity they will prattle on for hours about their poems, art work or the film they are making. You never get to actually see any of their work but you do get to hear about it. Their lives are like one never ending semester in grad school. Initially I believed these losers but then got to thinking. What would an aspiring actor, artist, musician, filmmaker being doing in Portland Oregon, a latte town? Why wouldn't they be in NYC or LA? Because they're phonies, that's why. Here's how it works with these clowns. They flunk out of college in New Jersey so their parents send them to Reed College in Portland in hopes that they will get their act together. They drop out of Reed but stay in Portland while still on Daddy's tab or some trust find. One Saturday Josh or Seth drifts down to one of the hundreds of hippie craft markets downtown. Some hippie is selling didgeridoos that he made I between bong reps. Josh buy one and takes it home where he proceeds to get baked after which he blows a few sour notes into the didgeridoo. The next day he's a musician. Not really but that's what he's telling everyone at the coffee house and pretending is good enough for a Portland artist-intellectual, in fact it's everything. In three months he will switch his designation from musician to filmmaker and then onto to something else 3 months later. As long as it sounds cool he will keep this charade up and no one in his circles will call him on it because they are doing the same thing.
The Activist
This group is usually comprised of people that used to be part of the artist-intellectual group in Portland. They have gotten a little older and may have finally, after 12 years, obtained a liberal arts degree from Portlan
Right, Lefty :-)
We'll make a deal. You stay there and we'll stay right here.
It's a big country. TG
I guess you're overreacting a little but ... come to Central/Eastern Europe.
If you're working in IT I don't think you'll have a problem finding a job here (Romania/Bulgaria/Czech Republic/Hungary).
You can always switch between countries until you find the right one.
A Romanian guy
Darned tootin! I live on MLK blvd and the spontaneous parade that erupted today (why is that always happening here?) really burst my vampiric bubble. NOTHING BUT VAMPIRES AND WEREWOLVES AND ZOMBIES (oh my!) out here in the PNW, y'all. Move along...
OP didn't deny that it was a city, only that it was not a major city. I don't know where the OP grew up, but maybe 350,000 just isn't that large of a population tohim. The fact that a place is counted as a city by the government doesn't mean that the place has enoughpeople for him.
If you think taxation is slavery, and you don't want to help anybody, then move to the US.
If you like free health care and low crime rates, move to Canada.
That is all.
Phil Hughes, former publisher of "Linux Journal", has been living in Central America for several years, first Costa Rica, and now Nicaragua, where he is building a resort/hotel/retreat/community.
See "Nicaragua Living" (www.nicaliving.com/) and CoolTop Eco-Resort (www.ctpni.com/).
Other resources: "CIA World Fact Book" (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html) and "Latin America Herald Tribune" (http://www.laht.com/Index.asp).
I am not an expert, just offering resources. I hear that Paraguguay (or is it Uruguay?) is really nice, but (reletively) expensive.
Best wishes.
I have heard that NZ is not all that anxious to let foreigners immigrate (same as here in the US BTW). If you have enough money you can buy your way in, yet this is getting harder. And if you are a highly skilled migrant you can get in. But I suspect during a global recession the urgent need for migrant labor might be diminished.
You have to start by defining "freedom" and evaluating threats to that freedom.
I'll give you an example, the mandatory ID card. Yes, they've been abused in the past. But it's not the ID card itself, it's how it's used. That may seem like a quibbling point, but it matters now because with surveillance cameras, face recognition software and databases, a tyrant can get most of what he gets from the ID card, plus this: you never know for sure when you're being tracked. It's the network and the database you ought to be worrying about. With "papers, please" at least you know when you are being tracked.
Here in the US, we might not have an ID card, and we're way behind the UK in surveillance cameras, but private data miners have practically unlimited ability to track us by our transactions, and the government which by law is not allowed to collect such data is allowed to buy that. Why? Because unlike in the Europe, we don't recognize a right of data privacy; in fact our rights of privacy are not explicitly spelled out anywhere.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I recommend the de-moroniser
Civil War is brewing. Should be a whole lot of fun with nukes, Raptors and Abrams on the battlefield.
Bullocks. Civil War requires geopolitical division -- and we don't have that. If Obama fails, the Republican Party gets a new rallying cry. If not, then they'll just reform or go the way of the Whigs.
There have been panderings of a coming "race war" or "civil war" or "red invasion" for longer than my father's been alive. And they're all crap, with an amazing ability to underestimate the religious feeling that "America" inspires in its citizens.
No, the second civil war IS coming.
It happened once already -- or did you never learn that in the the pathetic public schools here in the US? Have you checked the availability of ammunition lately? Have you tried to find an AR-15 or any other military-pattern rifle?
For God's sake, man -- pull it out! Otherwise you may wind up bringing a stout stick to a gunfight...
I live in one of the 100 largest cities in the world, and yet I would consider Anchorage, with a 10th the population, to still be a major city. I'm sure the residents of Anchorage feel the same way. My point was that limiting major cities to those over 1,000,000 is an extremely limiting, and not-used practice. As I pointed out, 100 years ago there were scarcely a dozen cities that size - but certainly there were more than a dozen major cities world-wide. The same can be said for the stats from 50 years ago and from today.
According to the 1,000,000 club criteria, San Jose doesn't qualify as a major city; neither does Dublin, nor Mombasa (Kenya), Jodpur (India), La Paz (Bloivia), Liverpool (UK), Marseille (France), Indianapolis (US), Zagreb (Croatia), Lodz and Krakow (Poland), Columbus, Ohio (US), Jerusalem (Israel), Nankang (China), Pretoria (S. Africa), Memphis, Tennessee (US), Kathmandu (Nepal), Palermo (Italy), Acapulco and Veracruz (Mexico), Fort Worth, Texas (US), Vladivostok (Russia), El Paso, Texas (US), Dortmund and Stuttgart (Germany), Milwaukee (US), Glasgow (UK), Düsseldorf (Germany), Helsinki (Finland), Louisville, Kentucky (US), Las Vegas (US), Cancun (Mexico), Oslo (Norway), Bremen (Germany), Portland, Oregon (US), Islamabad (Pakistan), Abu Dhabi (UAE), Rotterdam (Netherlands)
All these cities have more than half a million people. How can Jerusalem, Marseille, Liverpool, or Las Vegas NOT be considered a major city? Jerusalem? Not a "major city?" Acapulco? Cancun? Kentucky? Abu Dhabi? Fort Worth? Not major cities? Wow ...
The original posters' criterion for "major city" is a major fail.
Let's begin with some cons:
However, you have some good points:
Of course that many of the suggestions you were given are pretty good, and under any circumstances, of course you should check carefully all these aspects in the country you choose before moving permanently.
Good luck!
That is about the last free place that is close. Any country that you might actually want to live in is slowly heading towards an overly oppressive government, if they aren't already there.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Go to Australia. We've got literally no way of being stopped from downloading stuff :D. The country looks nice, but if you can put up with bad drivers, slow internet and all the other crap you've heard about us then come on down :D
I mean, you could move to a third world country, or one run by drug lords. But a wealthy and free nation? Good luck, tell me when you find one.
The OP never set a million as the minimum population necessary to be a major city, though he did say that 350,000 was insufficient. Maybe the OP would place minimum at 500,000.
It's easy for people to pick on Texas (like Fark picks on Florida), but Texas is pretty kick ass. Very independent, "fuck you" attitude here. Also, it might as well be its own country in terms of economic, geographical and societal diversity.
If you like the coast, we have 370 miles of it. If you like desert, we have 14 million acres in the Chihuahuan Desert. We have hillcountry, flatland, and farmland. No state income tax (we do have property, 8.25% sales, and various others.)
I certainly enjoy it here. The economy is much freer here than in other parts of the US. Almost no unions (other than that bastard teachers' union), it's a right-to-work state, and less taxes than other places. Regularly our cities are ranked some of the best places in the US to live (Houston, San Antonio, Fort Worth).
English citizens emigrate by the thousands every year sheerly for desire of food & wine that actually have a taste, and maybe the scenery. English ex-pats helped create Europe's budget airlines craze. etc. To answer your question, virtually any modern western country is "more free" than England on the measures you describe. So ask the real questions : Where do you want to live? Where can you get a jobs?
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
That would be a marked improvement ... :-)
Mexico. If you've got just ~$50k, you can basically buy your own town down there, and do whatever the hell you want.
Former Governor/actor/wrestler/football player Jesse Ventura now lives in Mexico on a large compound that he has built fairly cheaply.
I have lived and worked in Germany, Spain, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, RSA, Norway, and now in Australia. I spent quite a lot of time in the US too but only for scientific exchanges and research projects, though I got a permanent visa there too. Whenever I can, I travel and see other countries and there are not that many I haven't visited yet in the past 30 years. I think this gives me a good overview of how different countries work and are worthwhile to live in.
If you seek freedom as in "do as you please as long as you can fend for yourself", then many 3rd world countries are hard to beat; requires very little money or influence to make law enforcement look away if you break the rules. However, there will always be people with more money and influence than you, and their "doing as they please" might hurt you grievously.
If you seek freedom as in guaranteed civil liberties and rights and a chance to have your say *and* get heared, I'd look at Norway, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and perhaps New Zealand.
US and UK are pretty much at the top of my list of "countries that suck". Currently I live in Australia, because it is a good compromise for my own preferences, but free it is definitely not.
The most important freedom t look for in a country is the freedom to walk away from it with all your possessions and family members whenever you want - you'll be surprised how many countries don't qualify for even this once you look closer.
Horst
The ability to spend does not deserve the status of protected expression. Money is not a message -- it is an amplifier, and one which increases the noise far out of proportion to the signal. Campaign finance limits exist to prevent oligarchy.
In other news, astrophysicists have announced that they now know what all that dark matter is: it's stupidity.
I live in Canada. I don't want some dumbass who's too lazy to be politically active here. Fix the problems in your country, then move here and help me fix Canada's problems. Until then, the grass will always look greener on the other side.
No, We're coming to fix it.
I didn't really have to read the privacy report which ranks Greece at a comfortable #1. I come from Greece and I happen to know first hand how obsessed the "Personal Data Protection Agency" is with privacy. I actually find it silly that they won't even allow google street view, or even police cameras in public spaces. The only area where Greece does not rank higher in privacy is telecommunications, my guess is due to the fact that there was a well known wiretapping case. Of course the fact that the wiretaps were on politicians of all parties and especially of the governing party kind of tells you that it was not the Greeks who were doing the wiretapping (if you get my drift). But I digress. Anyway, after 6 years in NYC I am going back to Greece as well. My wife especially is sick of the feeling she gets that she is in "1984" (your belongings are subject to search, thumbprints please etc), and of course the climate is really annoying to both of us. We briefly considered going to the UK, however we have the same concerns you have, plus the Greek climate cannot be beat. Well, actually it can be equaled by Spain and Italy, but people don't speak English there, whereas most not too old people speak English in Greece. Now, the wages are much lower than the UK, however people manage to have a much better quality of life than, for example, most parts of the US, and housing, services etc are not as expensive.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
I won't add anything to many good lists people have already posted, but would like to remind of one aspect that may not be immediately obvious to a UK resident. Quite a few countries around the world, including Europe, still have military conscription. And in some of them, you have to do your time once you become a full citizen, so long as you're still of suitable age then. IIRC, this is the case for Switzerland, for example, and maybe also Finland?
Anyway, just something you want to check up the local laws on. Of course, it may well also be that you do not mind spending a year in what is essentially a free boy scout camp for adults(especially as conscripts don't generally get sent to active duty)... ~
I emigrated from the US to Tasmania, Australia nearly 40 years ago and have never regretted the move. For what it's worth, emmigrants to New Zealand and Australia (in that order) have been found to be happer than emmigrants to anywhere else.
I hear there's no police there, and you'll never be bored by your weather forecast.
Ask Me About... The 80's!
As far as Portuguese goes, if you can learn to speak one Romance language badly, you can learn to speak them all badly :-) On the other hand, one friend of mine who's travelled to Brazil says it's a really really bad place to go if you're gay.
Friends of mine moved to Argentina a couple of years ago, and have really been liking it. It's much more European than most of Latin America, and while there is still some leftover craziness (some of the military-government years were really vile), and the economy's weird, they like the people and the culture in general.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It's a real nice city. I've been there once.
Living in South Africa and having been to the US and to Australia, I would suggest that you look at either South Africa or Australia. My brother is currently in the UK and I know a number of other South Africans and Australians in the UK and they all have the same complaint: the rules. South Africans and Australians usually play by different rules and any Brit who visits these contries for an extended time usually find out that something just works differently there. You can usually also spot these guys at a mile when they are in England - they just function differently. So come on over and have a look. I have met a Englishmen in Sydney last year who share my ideas on this and have worked with a couple of Englishmen in SA who did not want to go back after the end of the projects. PM me to find out more. There are some great tech jobs over in both countries. Francois
I am a Brit, who had the opportunity to work in Vienna for two years with the Government's eIdenity program. The city is one of the most eco-friendly and pleasant places to live in that I have ever encountered, and I have travelled widely; You can manage daily life comfortably in English only, although I spoke modest german. Most importantly, however, for your criteria, it has the most imaginative and progressive identity policy on the planet: where else can you get highly secure, Government-brokered and yet anonymous online digital identity. the "Bürgerkarte" framework is truly revolutionary and leaves the user the choice about where and how to assert their identity online, whilst always protecting anonymity. It is also the only other country apart from Great Britain where thre is no compulsory identity card and where the Government, and Parliament, have consistently refused to introduce biometrics in national passports.
If you want to stay in Europe, Spain should do it. It has a rather progressive government (pulled out of Iraq, issued strong condemndation of war) and don't have the economy to put up a lot of surveillance infrastructure. Plus, you're really pretty much free to do as you like. Nasty unemployment though, which means finding a job might be a challenge.
Population density goes down really fast as you go north. Edmonton is the furthers north significant city. (> 100,000) I don't think that there are more than 200,000 people total in Canada living north of Edmonton metro area.
Yes you have Ft. MacMurray at around 60K, Whitehorse and maybe Yellowknife at 20K.
Perspective: Many northern Canada maps mark places such as "Coppermine" "Coral Beach" "Stony Rapids" These towns are all under 1000 people. 90+ percent of the people live within 100 miles of the U.S. border. And Edmonton accounts for a lot of the remaining 10%
The territories between them have only about 100,000 or so people total.
So, in context of someone wanting to work in a high tech large company, Edmonton is close to as far north as it gets, unless you work for one of the mining or oil companies. They tend to base you in Edmonton, and fly you in for X days in, Y days out. It's cheaper to build camps and fly workers than to build towns and fly supplies for the whole family.
(Much of the north is "Canadian Shield" a mess of granite, lakes, and bogs. Beautiful country in a stark way, but even simple roads get unbelievably expensive -- hence the annual ice roads.)
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
We're like our own miniature, awesome country.
Long live the BSD license
According to a slightly old State of World Liberty study, Estonia is has the most personal freedoms and is considered the most libertarian nation. http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/index.html
You mentioned "continuing efforts to implement mandatory ID cards". Remember that if you leave your country of citizenship, you must carry a passport. For example, if you move from the UK to the US, American citzens have no mandatory ID but you do - your British passport. Generally you must show it to any policeman who asks to see it for any reason, and he need not tell you his reason. I've lived with my (US) passport for nineteen years; mandatory ID has never bothered me.
Here's the truth:
The US is a country where campus newspapers are thrown into the trash en mass when they contain content that is objectionable (subjectively defined, usually by the left). So much for freedom of the press.
The US is a country wherein a person expressing an opinion supported by the majority of a state is vilified in the press and media by those who disagree with that expressed opinion. I won't even begin to describe the hypocrisy of the loudest of the critics of that opinion. So much for freedom of expression.
The US constitution is being shredded as we speak. The view of progressives is that the constitution is a "breathing" document. Isn't that a nice euphemism? Breathing! Breathing is good! Anyway, things like our constitution's checks and balances are being usurped with unappointed czars, increasing power of the unelected fed, and a very activist unelected judiciary where compassion and empathy trump written law. Eminent domain laws are now used for the public interest rather than the public good, "interest" being the operative word here. "Good" meant a road or a school. "Interest" means tax revenue.
Some refer to the 2nd amendment being used to keep the government under control. The idea that the 2nd amendment would be used to unseat a tyrant is ridiculous. If a "tyrant" were "seated" it would have been through the democratic process. Can you imagine what would happen if we were to use guns to unseat that tyrant? It would make Iran look like a water balloon fight. Talk about a crackdown...
It's funny how we all have different ideas about liberty. Some would say we sacrificed liberty for security. Personally, I never felt constrained by the Bush era security measures but that's just me. Maybe others really did have their liberty constrained. I'd like to hear some stories about that. The most likely argument will be about airport security, which is actually less invasive than the physical patdown I get walking into a House of Blues concert.
I'm not sure how having someone else tell me that I shouldn't drive a gas guzzling road hog, or that I shouldn't be able to pay for my own health care (without insurance), or that I have to move because the town can make more tax money by kicking me out to make room for condos developed by a private firm adds to my liberty.
How does an incarcerated innocent man being denied a DNA test equate to liberty?
How does removing the privacy of union votes square with the concept of liberty?
How the hell does a census bureau that forces me to answer unbelievably personal and increasingly invasive questions under the guise of a census supplement add to my liberty???
How does any of that equate to the notion of "leave me alone"?
I would argue that the biggest part of freedom is the freedom to fail, and I'm not just talking about money. If you want to be truly free, then you must reap the rewards and suffer the consequences of your decisions. The US is quickly becoming a nation that rewards failure and punishes success (unless it's the correct form of success).
No, the US is not the place to come if you truly value freedom and liberty. Not any more. If you leave the UK, you will no longer be a subject to the crown but you will not become a citizen of the US. You will become a US taxpayer. We are no longer referred to as citizens by our government. How's that for a cynical ruling class?
Look, I love this country but I abhor what it's becoming. Like you, I have been looking for somepla
Right (sic) now I'm watching Toronto's gay pride parade on TV. This is a city sanctioned parade. Currently seeing the city police and OPP (provincial police) floats and participants going by. This is our 29th annual Pride parade. Although I didn't make it this year, I have ( as a staight person ) enjoyed the joie de vivre of this parade and will definitely attend again. I think this parade exemplifies life in southern Ontario. I love it here. Check us out.
A man spends the first half of his life accumulating stuff, the second trying to get rid of it all.
Oh what a dumb ass "prospect of a Conservative government in the near future". It was the left wing Labour governments of Blair and Brown that brought in the restrictive 'police state' measures you twit.
I have lived in SA, UK, Australia, NZ and Canada. And each of these countries has strengths and weaknesses. I'd say that Australians are the least tolerant of government interference and push back on government meddling. They have a commendable disrespect and suspicion of authority; UK is simply a crap place to live unless you are excited by the coming prospect of Sharia law; NZ is intrinsically socialist (only recently has a conservative been elected) and Canada has a pretty acquiescent population keen to follow orders and with no sense of humour. (All their funny guys moved to Hollywood.) Canadians are unusual too in that unlike other cultures they define themselves by what they are not: "Hello, I am not American." To be fair it has an advantage that it is close to the US (that you may be able to tolerate now that the Dark Doofus is running things there)
But why stop there (or bankrupt Ireland) - obviously from your comments you are a keen (though confused) lefty so why not try an English speaking country in Africa. South Africa is the quintessential 'new Wild West'. Few laws apply and the authorities sure aren't watching you. Everybody is too busy avoiding being killed by the lawless mob. Police are easily bribed (R100 - about $10 - get you off most traffic offences), law enforcement rarely bothers to come when you call them (can be a problem if you are in danger) and it is pretty easy to avoid tax. It is easy to fly under the authorities' radar and the populace - white and black - have a great sense of humour, are anarchic by nature and are most emphatically not politically correct. Can be a great place to live if you don't mind carrying a gun. See for example, a real non PC TV ad from SA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCL9tcxBOMs
My experience though is that despite protestations to the contrary most Brits really do miss the grubby streets of England; houses the size of American dog kennels; the unbelievable prices of everything - almost $10 a cup at Starbucks - and most of all the misguided and truly unfounded sense of superiority Brits have towards the rest of the world.
Best advice I can give: Stay Home and ignore the cameras.
A postscript: ignore the best city/country ratings - these are just anti-American politically motivated propaganda unless you truly think Ottawa (rated 16th) with -30C winters, dull suburbs and people, miles from the sea has more zing and livability than (say) San Francisco (rated 30th). For the record I live in Canada.
That's what Bill Sizemore said.
Wanna see his mug shot?
http://news.opb.org/article/3686-multnomah-judge-sends-sizemore-jail-contempt/
DO NOT Recommend United States Of America!
The FORMERLY FREE u s of a is vastly becomming a europeon socialist, facisist, progressive, kingdom with b. o. and the dems!!!!
Our tax rate will soon exceed that of the U.K. - we were lower than they were.
Our freedoms are being taken away from weekly by b. o. and the dems.
The frustrating thing is the idiot, moron democrats that voted these people in dont seem to mind the loss of the Freedom, Liberty and Pursuit Of Happiness that was granted by our Founding Fathers and maintained by all those United States military people who have died throughout the years!
Impeach obama!!!! Impeach ALL democrats!!!!
Remove the czars!!! Remove the cabinet members - they are corrupt!!!
Remove the ploitical appointees and Hillary Clinton - they are corrupt!!!!
Remove the illegal aliens!!!!! They are criminals!!!!
NO government run health plan!!!!!!
NO government climate change bill - it i sfull of corrupt spending and taxation that line the pockets of the democrats and the companies they have invested in - that go them elected!!!!
LESS GOVERNMENT IN OUR LIVES AND BUSINESS!!!!
NO NEW TAXES!!!!!
NO INCREASE IN TAXES!!!!!
NO JUDGE SOTOMAYER - SHE IS BIASED AND CORRUPT!!!
Sorry dude, ferries to Norway no longer run from Newcastle as of last September
http://www.cheaperferries.com/?contentId=99
(This has fucked our holiday plans)
I reject the very concept of "race war", etc. There is only one race - the Human Race.
However, I do not reject the idea of a coming Civil War. On one hand, you have the Constitution and the writings of its authors to help clarify its meaning and intent. On the other, you have the existing Socialist/Fascist state with its growing tendrils into everything it is supposedly forbidden from getting into. Those two diametrically opposed states of existence cannot coincide for long before something breaks.
I fear for my children and grandchildren, for when the straw finally comes which breaks the camel's back, all hell will break loose and the outcome is unpredictable. Even if it is a positive outcome (whichever viewpoint applies to you), it will not come without a terrible cost. The ancient curse "May you live in interesting times" comes to mind.
... just spent a few days there and it is literally another world - reminds you what the UK could have been like if Churchill had become a follower of Ghandi... ... also, I'm still hungover.
To say "you don't vote with your feet" is to betray ignorance of what the expression means. When you choose one store over another, you vote with your feet. When you emigrate and thus pay your taxes to one state rather than another, you vote with your feet. "Vote with your feet" means, "By your patronage, you indicate your approval." The expression is perfectly appropriate here.
$META_SIG_JOKE
The problem is we have two supposedly diametrically opposed parties that are both tyrannical. Where they do differ, one wants to tell me what to do with my speech, my land, my guns, and my money while the other wants to tell me what to do with my body, my soul, and again my speech (but for different reasons).
Canada is very welcoming to immigrants
Yes, but the original thread is about moving to a place that is MORE free than where the OP is living now. Since Canada doesn't allow its citizens to own firearms (ditto with Australia), and confiscates wealth to pay for other people's healthcare expenses, Canada cannot possibly be considered "free".
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Nixon (GOP) isn't exactly the previous administration. He started the "war on drugs". Johnson (Democrat) started the "war on poverty". Carter (Democrat) started the departments of Energy and Education and gave us "stagflation". Clinton (Democrat) tried to force federalized healthcare on the US. Kennedy (Democrat) helped the Baath party (the party of Saddam Hussein) come to power in Iraq and wiretapped Martin Luther King, Jr. among others. Kennedy also broke a treaty (And a campaign promise) by relocating the Seneca. Truman (Democrat) ended a railroad strike by threatening to draft striking workers into the military.
Blaming GWB for all that has ever been wrong with the United States or for every growth of government power is beyond ludicrous.
I was blaming him for the Department of Homeland Security, various "Czars", and taxing the poor to ensure the welfare of the rich, which was the topic of this particular thread. All these things are the result of, or were exacerbated by, the previous administration. See great-great-grandparent post and great-grandparent post for details for details.
I'll accept "were exacerbated by". I don't agree that the drug czar, etc, were "the result of" because they simply were not.
Hrm, it seems you're right on the drug czar thing, according to wikipedia. *shrug* i never heard of it before 2002. The last administration certainly increased the quantity of "czars" in this country by quite a bit, though.
If you intend to be a responsible and a free citizen, buy a licensed Beretta Pistol.
Slashdot = Sarcasm
I agree the UK and the people in the UK are for the most part reasonable in my experience. Become active in local politics and try to steer your nation in the direction you think is best.
I don't like the term fight as much as work with and motivate.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
PI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_International) publishes a list of countries by Privacy Index. The UK is 1.5 ("Endemic surveillance societies", just ahead of Singapore), and the US is 2.0 ("Extensive surveillance societies", between Israel and Thailand). Based on that list, your best bets are Germany (3.9) or Canada (3.6) (both in the category "Consistently upholds human rights standards").