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Ergonomic Keyboards
I've asked this before, but it's been awhile so I'm interested in knowing what people are liking in ergonomic keyboards these days. For the last several months I've been using a split keyboard mounted on my chair, but while overall it is excellent, it is having some problems now (it randomly died, forcing me to reboot and lose my 81-day uptime, but mainly it has only two mouse buttons on the integrated pointer which just isn't cool). My wrists aren't in the greatest shape after typing pretty much non-stop for the last few years, so it's time to try a new keyboard. Anyone have good suggestions? What has worked for you?
My kbd came with a Winduhs-preinstalled PC, and has no Winduhs keys... just extra empty space between Alt and Ctrl to keep that naughty spacebar short
My other kbd had Winduhs keys, including a menu key, which X automatically made into a Menu key event for Motif :) But it croaked.
Yoga (the asanas, not the breathing or meditation) also works for reduction of risk for RSI type injuries. I've been told something to this extent was published in the New England Medical Journal, but never bothered to read the article.
I bought a similar split keyboard (not microsoft) at CompUSA. It is way cheaper ($20 instead of the $60 you'd pay for the MS one) and the arrow keys are of the normal size and shape and placement.. It is great.. Made by a company called Mouse Systems corp!
I have been using a Kinesis keyboard for about 3 years now. I was not a touch typist before. After switching I found that it forced me to touch type. QWERTY made me feel like a contortionist. So I switched to DVORAK. It took a couple of weeks to get used to DVORAK, and about 3 months to surpass my previous typing speeds. I sometimes hit so many keys at once that I'm amazed the words come out right. I also mounted a glidepoint between all the thumb keys. I use my thumb to point. I also mounted my keyboard to my chair. I now have kinesis keyboards on all my computers. When I encounter an old fashioned keyboard my fingers revert to my old, unorthodox 6 finger typing style. Become a Dvorak'n Kinesian you won't regret it!
I have had little experience with ergonomic keyboards, mainly cause they are harder (IMPO) for game use. True, chair mounting is a great idea, but then you have to go IR or have cables run on the floor. Here is something that helped me with CTS (what an ergonomic keyboard should do). A few years ago my dad got involved in a start up company that's sole purpose was to design and distribute a keyboard 'lifter', for about $200. I am somewhat an engineer, and the design is so simple and so amazing it is not even funny. It was though up by some PHD physics major, who knew very little about marketing, and would not let the company finish production. Anyhow, the design was this. You put the device under the keyboard. It was only slightly larger than your standard 104 key keyboard, plus a small motor. It would slowly raise and lower the keyboard, at about 10 seconds each direction (up/down), and would incline the keyboard between 0 and 15 degrees. If you understand physics and anatomy, the idea works. It keeps your wrist moving, preventing CTS alltogether. The final product was supposed to have the device integrated into a keyboard, and the company even approached Compaq with the idea (the company was based about 5 miles away from Compaq HQ in Texas).... Their lawyers like it, but said if they adopted it that it would say all their previos models were flawed, and would create a bad public image. Sorry about the plug, but the company died, my dad is short $6000 in investments, and I continue to use the prototype to prevent CTS. Just hope someone out there can come out with something similar...
Well there are a few things that Microsoft has made that I give credit to: M$ Excel, IE (mostly because it's NOT netscape, and outlook express is the best email client out there), and of course, their hardware. I would never buy another brand of mouse, or keyboard. I have used both the old and new Ergo keyboards and loved them both. When I go to work, I have a regular one and I hate it. The mice are great- comfortable, they work, and the mouse wheel was a sweet idea, if only I could get it working in Gnome... Bottom line: M$ Ergo keyboards...
stupid troll.
Well ultimatley they are better for posture and preventing carpel tunnel (sp). But I stick with the old flat kind for reliability
Really, inside the steel keyboard case was an electromechanical solenoid clicker. It could be switched on or off via a keyboard command. Then as you typed, the solenoid would fire for each keystroke. Get 15 or 20 of these keyboards all going at once in the same room and it was a fascinating sound. Reminded me of the old typing class back in HS, when they had electric typewriters and not PCs running Word. Dad remembers when the school had mechanical typewriters!
I currently use a Microsoft natural elite, but the best keyboard I ever had was an IBM standard issue that I swiped from work. It was a real tank. I spilled countless softdrinks on it, but it remained untouchable. The keys bounced back and the room would fill with those clicks that you only hear in big budget movie office scenes. It was finally laid to rest in April of 1999 when I spilled a full bottle of Killian's Irish red on it. If anyone has had any experience with these keyboards, or know where I can get one, it came with IBM PCs that shipped in 1996. Thanks... "The world is our dictionary" -Hemmingway
I used to like trackpads (I have Glidepoint Waves at home and work), but this seems just as comfortable and gives much easier precision.
Personally, I am leery about using hardware from the world's largest software manufacturer, particularly when that manufacturer is as powerful and unscrupulous as Microsoft Corporation is. What is to stop them from putting circuitry in the keyboard that allows them to detect when you type (for example) "Microsoft sucks"? Don't you think they have a vested interest in knowing who "the enemy" is? I used to work in Security for a large corportion (not Microsoft, but large nonetheless) and have sort of a unique insight into all of this.
.. but no thanks. I purchase my keyboards and mice from third-party companies. I examine them thoroughly, inside and out, when I get them. Only after I'm sure that they are free of espionage devices are they installed on my system. Sure, it's a bit of extra work, but it helps me sleep at night.
.. Czechoslovakian-made listening devices that were actually manufactured during the Cold War, probably in the mid-1970s. For this particular case, it doesn't really matter .. the bug doesn't have to be that small or that high-tech. All it has to do is fit within the keyboard case and provide a reasonable amount of fidelity. The problem with these things, though, is that they don't have a very large transmission range. This has required Microsoft to establish an elaborate cellular coordinated network to monitor the devices. If you live in a rural area, you're in luck; chances are you're not being monitored. Microsoft has a lot of money, but they can't possibly cover the entire country with this setup .. at least, not with the ranges provided by their current listening devices. The video devices, on the other hand, are at this point just a rumor. I wouldn't be surprised, though.
.. at least for now.
It seems to me that selling hardware disguised as real peripherals would be an ideal way to get recon equipment into the home of an enemy of the corporation. Such equipment would include listening devices and perhaps even small CCD cameras. This would be a great way for Microsoft to surveil people who don't use Windows; after all, they already have code in Windows 2000 that monitors sound coming in from the microphone and sends selected clips to intelligence servers in Redmond. But if you're running (for example) Linux, obviously Microsoft cannot insert secret code to monitor you. Not in the software, anyway.
So what if they control your hardware? It's an attractive pitch, isn't it? "Buy this keyboard and this mouse from us, and your wrists will feel much better!" Sure they will! You'll also be opening your private home up for all of Bill's minions to see. Thanks, Bill
Most of the models I've seen have employed relatively crude technology
A friend of mine started receiving harassing phone calls after purchasing a Microsoft Natural keyboard. He is a Linux user, and rarely has anything good to say about Microsoft. He eventually had to change his phone number (and leave the new one unlisted.) He also has seen people in his backyard attempting to observe him and his wife through their windows. When they go outside to find out who they are, they're gone. There can be little doubt that Microsoft is observing them
If you're still with me, you're probably thinking I'm nutty. Well, let me say this: I would probably be thinking the same thing, if I hadn't seen some of the things that I've seen. People cannot be complacent about this, and you cannot be naive about the lengths that these large corporations will go to monitor you and make sure they control your lives. So at least consider what I'm saying before you dismiss me.
The first thing all good wood workers learn is "Measure twice, Cut once". The same thing applies to typing, "Think twice, Type once".
To hell with all the ergo keyboards, just spend an extra 5 minutes thinking about what you're about to type and get it right the first time, rather than typing the same thing 5 times over.
Not only will your wrists thank you endlessly, but your productivity and the quality of your work would probably improve too.
Cheers - Tony "Slashdot accounts are too 31337 for me" Mantler
Main advantage is that nobody ever taught me a wrong position of my hands.
Secondary advantage is that my hands can be everywhere on the keyboard, asssisting the other hand.
Disadvantage: I still can not type blindly.
Disadvantage two: I can not deal with those ergonomic keyboards, there twisted for me as regulars are for many other people.
--
Kero
You should learn to type! I've been typing for years without any problem. There is a specific way to type that will prevent carpal tunnel syndrome or injury to your wrists. Height position of keyboard is important. The angle and placement of your wrists are important too. And for Gods sake, don't let your wrists touch the table..that will surely give you problems. I suggest you take a typing class.
I suppose it depends on the slant. My Glidepoint Wave has 6 on the right, but the space on the left next to the 5 would be a much easier reach for me.
The flip out tilt stands have broken off (That's okay, never used 'em) the little rubber feet have peeled off (now put my keyboard on a piece of rubber earthquake matting).
They've got a no-risk trial, and I too can vouch for them. After four hours (all I could get) I was starting to feel pretty comfortable on it. It's got a very small throw so once fluency is achieved the maximum speed is very, very high. They are extremely comfortable and make extensive use of thumb controls (as opposed to using all of that evolution to just smack the space bar...)
I bought a USB Microsoft IntelliEye mouse two days ago, the HOWTO for it left out some important stuff, but I finally got it working and its awesome. Microsoft really can make a mouse.
That's a feature of your terminal or console driver, not vi. Emacs fans know this too; if you can't map Alt to prepend Esc, C-[ makes an easily reachable Meta key.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has used the BAT keyboard. According to InfoGrip's literature, users typically can get fast on it within a couple of months. It costs between $250 and $400, IIRC, depending on the model. It works with your own mouse, and takes up about the space of a trackball. Sounds really cool, especially for those trying to save their decrepit wrists.
I'm not here to troll, but I should point out that even though it's great that their customer service is so wonderful, it bloody well better be for $300 per keyboard! I've been pretty impressed with what I've heard and seen about the keyboard though. Alas, I don't have $300 to blow on a keyboard. The keyboard I use is a Linux CoolKeyboard (www.coolkeyboards.com) which is quite nice. But not ergonomic.
did you forget to register it? might want to read that EULA again....
No question about it, the MS Natural Keyboard has saved my career. I cannot, and will not, ever use a rectangular keyboard again. I only wish the MSNK can in a model without the numeric keypad; they're just too wide and I never use the numeric side. I now have an MSNK on all my PCs (running whatever OS), and Sparc hardware. For those of you who want to use PS/2 style devices on your Sparc h/w, you can buy, from Sun, something called the Sun Interface Converter, part #370-2068-01 for about $75. This has three ports 1) Sun kbd/mouse; 2) PS/2 kbd; 3) PS/2 mouse. I plug in a MSNK and a Logitech trackball, and use the same devices on all my machines.
I have to say something about this... I am currently Using the new MS keyboard, the Natural Pro, and I love it. THe internet buttons on the top are very useful, and the multimedia butons rock as i do not have to use the mouse to control winamp (a definate plus). They are probably remappable, and MS includes a nice debugger (although i do not know if it existed before, as i never went muching around the keyboard controll panel) which gives you all the info you need to remap the keys...(i think...) It also has some grea features, like having a USB hub in it. Recently, i discovered i could also use it as a usb keyboard alone! i loved that... No PS2 for me (although i soon discovered that i had a lack of free processor cycles, so i had to switch back to ps2)! The New one really does rock, and the Elite was just stupid. I don't know how someone could buy that horrible thing. It also has some nice newbie features, like how the control hey has a special symbol on it. THe other keys on the keyboard that are often hotkeys have that symbol and a description of what they do (which is nice, although those hotkeys are for MS programs for the most part).
Do research before undergoing any exercise! I have been a steady programmer for more than 12 years and I started developing wrist problems five years in. At the time, I was doing silly things, like carrying groceries long distances in plastic bangs dangling from my wrists. 20 pull ups a day, and 200 push ups a day. On top of fanatical typing! Needless to say, it was a disaster. Pull ups and push ups are extremely bad for the wrists. Be very careful about what exercise you choose. I would like to learn if there is indeed a healthy exercise that can complement typing.
I bought a twiddler a while ago, but the X-driver sucks badly. Mouse movement is jerky, and it uses a program called a2x to feed the data to X, which means most of my window manager keybindings are lost (yes I tried contacting the author but never got a reply).
Better than ergonomic keyboards are wireless keyboards. You can type from anywhere in the room and you dont even have to be sitting down.
Not having to sit in a chair in front of the computer changes the entire computing experience.
>stress
For me, stress is the biggest factor for wrist pain (whether or not my wrist pain could be classified as RSI I don't know, but I can't help but think it's related). The only time I had much trouble with wrist pain is when I had a job that made me wish I was dead I was so stressed. Even thinking about typing seemed to make them hurt.
You said it, AC! The keys even click with meaningful thuds, not the paltry tap-tap-tap of the newer click keyboards. If you get on a role, it sounds like you're running a chainsaw through a chain-link fence! Now that's productivity!
DOn't know where you are located, but here in the Los Angeles area, you can pick up MS Naturals for about $19 OEM. Check here: http://www.mwave.com/
What is "Winduhs"??
You really sound stupid, if that's your attempt at putting down Windows.
No problems with it here. I've got the Pro, with the rubber buttons at the top for one touch web, e-mail, etc. and the cursor keys in the RIGHT spots. and I LOVE IT! The buttons don't work under linux, but the keyboard does just fine. When I'm in NT the buttons are convenient (when i remember to use them). I'm using the PS/2 connector, though, not the USB. Best thing I ever did for my wrists!
Mine's too big to fit in the third choice.
you're welcome.
Where can these IBM keyboards purchased ? I used to have an URL, but I lost it... Aren't they made by Lexmark or something ? Thanks !
Acer future keyboard has been my pal for the past year. Love those smoooothh purple curves and arrow keys right at my thumbs were they should be.
Also buying a dreamcast has done wonders for my RSI.
Used to work all day on the computer, then go home and play on the computer all night. Now I leave the computer for work and rock on the dreamcast at home. Best $199 I have every spent.....
Keep on Keeping On
I always go with these keyboards... http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/Prod uctDisplay?prmenbr=1&prnbr=92G7454&cntry =840&lang=en_US The soft & squishy ones just don't cut it. These were designed for 1000s of keystrokes in a day. At least it solved my wrist aching problems, and I'm a C programmer. Plus they make a good bashing device considering they weigh 5lbs :). Next...trying to save the eye sight :).
Having bashed away at a keyboard from the time I was knee high to a grasshopper I have what some might call a bit of a fanatical view of what a keyboard should and shouldnt be.
Wether a keyboard is split or flat is somewhat irelevant to the issue of quality and user discomfort/strain. Bad typing posture is the most common cause of repetitive stress pain. One should never rest the palms of their hands on the edge of the keyboard or a desk or pad, always keep them suspended above the surface, a pad will help you keep your hands at a reasonable height but is more useful as a guide than otherwise. I have found perhaps the 2 most useful things to do in this realm are to get an under-desk adjustable arm type keyboard tray and adjust it so that the keyboard is just below the level of your elbows, also keeping a nice klutter between you and your keyboard but not enough so that you can rest your elbows on the desk will help keep your wrists at a reasonable height. Many people will suffer forearm tiredness for the first week or so of using correct typing posture, if this is the case they should take a break every so often, eventually the forearm muscles will compensate which comes in handy for other tasks...
Back to the topic of keyboards however, my personal view is that there is NOTHING quite as comfortable or enjoyable to use as one of the IBM, OmniKey or Lexmark mechanical keyboards from 5+ years ago. Almost all of these have the old AT style keyboard connector which as the PS/2 connector is functionally equivalent requires only a $3 adapter to make useful with almost all current systems. Dont be fooled by some of the later models that replace the individual switches with a dual membrane layout, if you spill anything on these later models you are screwed and it is time to get a new keyboard whereas with the older individual switch variety even if you spill something and one or more of the keys shorts you can waltz on down to your local radio shack and pick up a $.02 presure switch and resolder it yourself.
These mechanical keyboards were reviewed at one point at Thresh's website and are praised by almost all keyboard/mouse FPS gamers out there. They are solid enough that you could pound nails with them and go right on typing, they also 'click' when depressed to the point of making contact, this will keep you from mashing your fingers into the keys and causing even more stress to your hands.
Another thing to look for if you are ripping your keyboard apart to take a look at the insides is what chips it uses to transfer the keypresses to signals for the computer. OmniKey made their own chips for a period of time but were eventually replaced by KeyTronics, both of these are of good quality and I have only had a keyboard hang once using one of the OmniKey chips. The IBM and Lexmark keyboards use KeyTronics, IBM and Lexmark chips, I have never had a problem with one of these!
Also to avoid keyboard hangs you can set the BIOS in most PC systems to not warn you on keyboard errors, or to not require a keyboard to boot. If you set this option and your keyboard does hang you generally need to go no further than to unplug the keyboard without powering the system down and pluging it back in, there is a vary unlikely posiblity that the connector on your system could short on doing this but as the ring on both the AT and PS/2 connectors is ground and the pins are generally shorter than the ring on both connectors this is again unlikely.
I have not seen any of these keyboards for sale new for the last 5+ years but have found them aplenty in dumpsters, used hardware stores and computer shows. Also if you are lucky enough to be close to the UoMI they sell the IBM and Lexmark models for $10 each at their Property Dispossesion Store and will let you test them before buying.
There are two more notable benifits of these keyboards. If you ever loose or break a keycap or a key itself they are interchangeable, only the left hand key and spacebar are not repeated on the keyboard and it is easy enough to go buy a seccond one and salvage parts from it. Also if you ever break or damage the cable coming off the back of the keyboard they are also replaceable and come in different lengths which plug into the back of the keyboard.
Cable Mite
cable@iname.com
http://www.acerperipherals.com/keyboard/input_ergo 61.html
I gave the "Microsoft Natural Keyboard" a try about six months ago (I used it for about three months) and I found that it actually *exacerbated* the pain/tightness in my hands and fingers. I am back to the standard keyboard that Micron was shipping with new computers as of a few months ago (now I believe that they are shippng the Natural Keyboard as "standard"). One thing I know for sure -- smaller is better (to a point). That is, thiner keyboards are better than the older (and even some of the newer) chunky keyboards.
I've got one. The keys are like some 80's non-PC keys from minicomputer manufacturers. That's why it's not s trange thing, although I probably touched one only a couple times. A style you obviously didn't get much exposure to. Kind of fancy.
Hey, it's not a Sinclair or PC-Jr keyboard, man!
Holding a ball would be less painful than flattening your hands across a keyboard.
Will anyone build it?
What we really need is good voice-recognition software....
I'm posting this AC just because I know the kind of immature responses that I'll get. I have a speech impediment, and so I for one am not looking forward to widespread use of voice-recognition software. A bad stutter would make it quite counter-productive. ;-)
Even without that problem, I would still use the mouse and keyboard. The mouse cannot be replaced for precise visual control, and my keyboard commands and chorded shortcuts have become second nature.
Let me get back on topic, though. Anyone have any experience with "data glove"-type keyboard replacements?
My new Dell keyboard still has this configuration. Unfortunately it's a soft-touch ("QuietKey"), but it's the least offensive soft-touch keyboard I've used.
I'd love to try out the KeyTronics keyboards mentioned, but IIRC they are quite expensive. And, unfortunately I couldn't bare to spend more than $100 on a keyboard, even though I do use it so often.
I've actually been looking at the Happy Hacker keyboards (you know, those tiny ones). The keys are no smaller; instead, the numberpad, arrows, INS/DEL/HOME/END/PGUP/PGDN block and function keys are removed. There are a few "meta" keys (in place of the windows keys) which allow you to access these functions through the number keys and a few others. To top it off, the HHKB has left CTRL in the /correct/ place, where CAPSLOCK is on Win95 KBs.
The smaller size may seem like it'd make RSI, CT and the rest act up even more, but I like the fact that my large hands would be able to hit every key without moving. ;) Yep, I'm *damn* lazy!
Well since nobody is posting about acutal ergonomic keyboards I figured I'd throw in my two cents. Datahand keyboards, datahand, at $1000 there kinda costly but my friends got some and I can honestly say there is nothing more comfortable. They have this nice silicon hand-rest and the keys are positioned like cups around your hand. Another nice thing is the keyboard mapping is the same as the one your used to, you still move your fingers in the same direction.
Note: Mountain Dew and other beverages don't count. Water is the best.
Why? My cup of coffee has almost as much water as a cup of just water. The caffeine is a diarehtic (sp? so I have to take breaks even more often) and keeps me coding longer. Finally, the caffeine addiction and great taste keep me drinking more than I would with water.
You, sir, are fruity!
OosTime is a simple program that does about the same thing as xwrits. /Lars
... but that's all. You're just going to have to be funnier next time.
Dell for a little while was making an ergo keyboard with feet on the front. Can't find them now though...too bad
To_answer_your_question:_Nope,_the_win_keys_have _taken_over. My_new_keyboard_has_no_room_for_a_spacebar.
I use A for backwards, s-d for strafe left and right, and a mouse button to move forward. Find it's good cause don't have to change hand positions at all to move in any direction. Using mouse to turn. I find using either diamond or arrow key config awkward as can't put your fingers on all the keys at once.
Well, I don't care much for their OS, but I swear by the MS natural keyboard and nearly refuse to use anything but an MS wheel mouse. I had reasonably bad (though not officially diagnosed) carpal tunnel, which only occasionally comes back when I'm forced on to a flat keyboard for extended periods. It NEVER surfaces on the MS keyboard. However, make sure you get the old style with horizontal: insert-home-pageup delete-end-pagedown rather than the completely whacked "spacesaver" vertical arrangement.
Different martial arts classes, even in the same style, are taught different ways. Some classes have you really pound on each other, and some classes are nearly contactless. You have to be a little selective in choosing a style and a school that is right for you. Parity w/o Password
IMHO, the Datahand keyboard is the best keyboard for avoiding CTS. It brought me from not being able to code to spending all day hacking. Some people love 'em, some hate em (if nothing else, they are the coolest looking keyboards around). Supposedly, they've overcome older manufacturing problems/delays and have come down in price -- I'm sure they're still very expensive, though.
Also popular is the Kinesis which is based on the older Maltron keyboards.
As for books on CTS, the best I've seen is Pascarelli and Quilter
Another solution would be find a northgate spliter. although, personally i have no problem with my wrist.
So your terrible spelling and grammar is instead a product of your inferior mind?
Thought so.
Wow, nick is talking about me on slashdot. Fame.
If you are having wrist problems, or pain/numbness in your middle fingers, I'd recommend just seeing your doctor (insurance?) They have a good test (EMG) that can check for
nerve damage. It's worth it.
Am I the only one who uses S D F V, I think it is a much more natural position. Although I just changed completely to use the mouse a s much a possible for movment. Now F V are weapon controls, instead of forward-backward.
I use the datadesk technologies smartboard ergonomic keyboard and it's the best ergonomic keyboard I've ever typed on. The spacing and size, and placement of the keys is designed to minimize the distance that your fingers have to travel. Also it has a nice clicky feel and you don't have to press nearly as hard as with those mushy keyboards out today and the '6' key is on the correct (right) side. If you don't want to shell out the money for a kinesis, get a smartboard ($85). After typing on the smartboard for a while, I tried a MS natural keyboard and it seemed really uncomfortable. http://www.datadesktech.com/ or http://www.darwinkeyboards.com/ By the way, I don't work for the company that makes this keyboard; I just am dissapointed that market is dominated by microsoft and logitech and that more people aren't using the smartboard, which is a much better product.
I can't use Ergonomic keyboards. Somewhere along the line I developed a tendency to crossover the center with either hand without thinking about it. Particularly when hitting odd control-shift-meta-cokebottle combinations.
I've been typing, heavily, for the past, oh, 19 years... I've found the best solution to be spending $10 on a cheap (standard) keyboard, and spending $200-$300 on a good chair. Proper chair ergonomics matters more than anything else. The armrests should be adjustable. There should be support for the lower back. My feet should touch the floor. My knees and elbows should bend at 90 degrees. Etc.
Don't neglect the computer table's ergonomics either. Your hands should not bend upwards at the wrist. If anything, they should bend downwards! (So, all those little legs on the back of keyboards that make them stand up are, really, on the wrong side. You should be raising the front, not the back!)
I've tried all kinds of KB's: Notably Fujitsu, Billy-boy's (un)"Natural," and Dell's mush-touch.
None of them have ever measured up to the degree of comfort I've had with the good ole' 101-key IBM/Lexmark 'clickers.' Every one of my PC-ish systems at home has one, and I make it a point to have spares on hand since I know they're getting hard to find.
I think a lot of this argument has to do with how you used your hands as you grow up. As a kid, I used to do a lot of typing on an old Underwood manual typewriter, so my wrists and fingers got really strong to begin with. I still restore and use old computer hardware (minis and such), and most of that gear is pretty heavy, so hefting it around has helped me keep that strength.
I still think the best thing to do is shut all they hype about "Ergonomic" this and "Natural" that out of your brain, try a bunch of different approaches, and use what works best for your comfort level no matter how "wrong" someone else says it is.
YMMV...
If you can find one of these, they make a pretty nice ergonomic keyboard for under $20. You just have to to this if you want the delete, insert, pgup, and pgdown to be in the right place.
I like the happy hacking keyboard, advantages: you can buy it for PC and SUN, so I have now the same keyboard at home (PC) and at work (SUN). It's really small, so it balances on your lap and it is centered at the same time. Other advantages: no caps lock key, control key at the correct position, etc... really worth it.
Whether you Like Microsoft or not, you got to like their hardware offerings. Im using the MS Natural Keyboard 1.0 (2.0 is the elite, 3.0 is the Pro, which has all those internet buttons on the top.) and it's one of the best Keyboards I've seen if you can find one. Dont get the elite keyboard, it's flimsy any dosent seem to have any weight to it. The Pro version is a lot like the old keyboard, but it's got those buttons on it that would be useless to you unless you use a windows operating system. If you can find the old keyboard, go for that one.
I know a couple people with kinesis kboards, and they like them, but you should try one before buying just to see if it cramps you more. The bowls, etc., are a little small for some people so in some cases, that is, in large-handed cases, the Kinesis may make your life worse. jeb.
Give me a plain ol' rectangular keyboard. Preferably with a nice WIDE space bar (that means no windows keys [anyone make boards w/o win keys anymore?]), the backslash key above the return key, and the keys should not be quiet and mushy. I wanna hear clicks.
who writes all these boring americunt articles?
I'll take anything with an intergrated track ball or better yet a finger mouse. It just pisses me off when I have to stop typing to use the mouse.
<i>I'm sorry. Did I run over your dogma?</a>
2. shove your hands down your pants and enjoy the soothing warmth
oh wait, maybe that's why I have sore wrists in the first place. thank you.
I love using the MS ergonomic keyboards, not least because they enforce a better typing discipline. My only problem is the name Microsoft emblazoned on it. Sticking plaster or pvc tape soon fixes that problem. A more useful solution would be some kind of solvent to remove the offending ink. has anybody experimented in this area?
I hate the iMac keyboard. A friend of mine has one of those infernal devices, unfortunately attached to an iMac (which looks more like a toy than a machine). Why doesn't it have an end button? When I'm using the internet, I rarely use the mouse, only using it to click on links (sometimes not even then), using the keyboard for everything else. But on this keyboard, there is NO 'END' KEY!! I'll give you that the position of the page up and page down keys is helpful, but the lack of the end key and the forward delete REALLY bugs me!
I've been typing on various regular keyboards(including years on a commodore 64 clunker..the brown one with the big keys) for 15 years and my wrists never hurt. I work in the computer field..Get a dumbell and work your wrists every so often you wimps. Heaven forbid you dorks do some exercise. And wanking it doesnt count, because contrary to popular belief it doesnt really work the wrists(mostly forearms) and I do a lot of that too pussies
Forget the arrow keys, they're on the wrong side of the keyboard unless yer left handed.
I mapped a, s, d, f, to back, sideleft, sideright, forward respectively. I also use a Logitech ball (the large expensive optical red one).
I play Team Fortress Classic a LOT and haven't had any problems until lately because my work surface is too high. I'm going to mount a keyboard/trackball tray underneath my new desk soon. Until then, they are parked on a low TV tray.
/tmp/Fog
Forget the arrow keys, they're on the wrong side of the keyboard unless yer left handed.
I mapped a, s, d, f, to back, sideleft, sideright, forward respectively. I also use a Logitech ball (the large expensive optical red one).
I play Team Fortress Classic a LOT and haven't had any problems until lately because my work surface is too high. I'm going to mount a keyboard/trackball tray underneath my new desk soon. Until then, they are parked on a low TV tray.
/tmp/Fog
I've not seen anyone mention the IBM Trackpoint keyboard
I use the IBM keyboard at work, and find that having the pointer accessible without moving my hands really seems to help. For me, the mouse is the worst problem.
At home, I have a classis Kinesis, which is also quite nice but has no pointer option.
If you like trackpoints, I highly recommend the IBM - it's also half the price of the Kinesis.
First of all, I don't know if anybody has said this already, but anyone with pain or anyone who types a lot should check out the Typing Injury FAQ at www.tifaq.org. On the ergo keyboards front, it has a whole area about models available and in development. I haven't made the investment in a new keyboard yet because I'm a little skeptical about their benefits. Where is the cold, hard research? Around here, a lot of people with severe pain have switched to the DataHands, www.datahand.com. It's a pretty steep learning curve, and it's ridiculously expensive, but, apparently, it works for some people. Another popular choice is the Kinesis, which has been mentioned several times already, but I'd like to restate my cautioning that these keyboards are too small for some people with large hands, so try before you buy. I read a blurb in some magazine (maybe /., on second thought...) that said that one of the forthcoming vertically configured keyboards has been scientifically shown by an independent third party to help reduce wrist damage. They have info about models like this in the tifaq. Read it. It's like a regular split keyboard except the two sections are rotated around your arms' axes in opposite directions until perpendicular to your desk. I'm curious about chorded systems like the BAT from infogrip (www.infogrip.com (sorry I'm not using HTML)) Anyone have any experience with those? Even though this isn't directly about keyboards, it bears repeating in a dialog such as this one: if your hands hurt, go to a doctor. Don't end up like the myriad cripples I know or the more famous examples like JWZ and Ben Wing. If you're doctor doesn't seem interested or brushes you off with a statement like, "There's no such thing as RSI" or "wear braces", switch doctors. It seems that traditional medicine is having a tough time with the keyboard injuries and is having trouble admitting it. I went to an orthopaedic surgeon who told me to wear wristbraces. He didn't even look at my hands or touch them or anything. There is no way he could have assessed anything about the state of my hands. Sadly, stories like this are all too common. They'll just brush you off until you need surgery, which even they will tell you has a limited chance of success. Wearing wrist braces while typing can be extraordinarily damaging to your wrists. Don't do it. In some cases though, sleeping with them on can help, especially if you sleep on your hands like many people. I (and some others, namely jwz I think), have had good experiences with acupuncture. I don't know why, but I swear to you, my hands hurt less. Way less. The acupuncturist I go to also does massage and is a molecular biologist in a cancer lab, so she's basically a geek deep down, when she touched my right wrist, only a couple of weeks after the doctor fiasco, she grimaced and said, "what have you done!" Apparently, my wrist has been torn, scarred, healed, and is now tearing again. I'm glad she at least told me this and made it hurt less. Now I've just got to get a new keyboard. Also, don't over look the importance of things like posture in your wrist-pain analysis. I know a kid who types all the time but bought an Aeron and has little to no pain with his stock keyboard. Use a timer like xwrits and obey it. Apparently, at Pixar, they hardware that detects when people have gone two hours without stopping and locks the keyboard for 15 minutes. Rests are important. good luck, Biggie Smalls.
If all these companies actually give a crap about our bodies and our health, why do the price everything so damn high nobody but the 'eleet' can buy them? 400 for a keyboard? What kinda CRACK are you smoking???
... 400 ... mumble... shi... mumble ... hrmf...
I did shell out for an MS elite (when they still cost like 80 bux) but that's as far as I can EVER see going. True now, you do get what you pay for (the MS kb and the el cheapo copy, look at the construction of the space key) but please!!!
...
If you lika me like I lika you...
I recommend using an imac keyboard, they'r nice and small and leave room on your desktop for other crap.
i just want to know why the ask slashdot questions get worse and worse when i am asking productivity type questions and getting no response and questions like this get posted
The correct spelling is "y'all".
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Personally, I've used a pretty radical ergo keyboard (the Kinesis Countoured) and it's helped immensely. BUT, it's not the design of the keyboard per se.
This keyboard is pretty fscked up, from an old-time
perspective of a bad typist. It forced me to correct several bad habits I aquired while hacking in the Commodore-128 days. So in some respect, it's the savior of my arms.
On the down side, the designers are text-typists, it seems, and the Esc is miniscule so it's cumbersome to use with everyone's favorite editor, 'vi'.
- chad (ragnarsedai)
cmiller@surfsouth.com
Hands down (no pun intended) the best keyboard
I've ever tried. I'd even go so far as to say
it's the best money I've ever spent.
For a while my paid was so bad that I thought
I'd have to stop programming. But three years
later, thanks to the Kenisis, I'm still typing
100 hours a week with very little if any pain.
-Pez
As a bonus, the "Windows" keys don't have the "Windows logo" on them -- rather, they have a simple drawing of a four-paned square window. Of course, there are stickers for the keys that come with the keyboard, to "upgrade" to the Windows logo, but I threw those out :).
And, it's only $32 with free shipping (but not free handing) from eCost.
Also, I'd like to mention Dvortyboards. They're regular keyboards, but with both Qwerty and Dvorak letters on the keycaps. Best of all, though, you can switch between which mode (Dvorak or regular) simply through a switch on the keyboard (no software changes needed).
Until recently, Dvortyboards only sold a non-ergo keyboard. However, they now sell an ergo one too. The funny thing is, though, is that the Dvorty ergo keyboard looks suspiciously like my Adesso, even with the split space bar ;).
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
- Oh one other note, David Bialick sells these for the best price when I bought mine, and the service is also excellent. His site is http://www.dmb-ergonomics.com/.
Office Organix seems to have even better prices:- Kinesis Essential:
- $202.50 @ DMB
- $180 @ Office Organix
- Kinesis Professional:
- $319.50 @ DMB
- $253.95 @ Office Organix
- [etc]
Alex Bischoff---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
- And, it's only $32 with free shipping (but not free handing) from eCost.
Hmm, it's seems that my direct link to eCost's Adesso Tru-Form page didn't work.. Well, in that case, if you're interested, it's just a matter of going to the main eCost page and searching for "Adesso".And, no, I don't work for them -- I'm just a satisfied customer :).
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
- Take regular typing breaks. Work for a while, take your hands off the KB and do something else with them.
- Excercise: use a "stress ball" or equivalent, or if you already have an RSI, see a physical therapist for an excercise regimen.
- Use proper posture. Don't get a wrist rest -- they encourge poor posture: instead, follow proper posture taught in keyboarding (and piano) classes.
- Don't skimp. All ergo devices are not created equal -- find one that is best for you, even if it costs more.
Above all, remember that the biggest improvement you'll see with a good ergo keyboard is performance. If you buy one, buy it for that, and use the tips above for healthy typing.--
Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
How about dos?
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
I need a ergonomic keyboard that has a Dvorak layout. They go through all of the trouble to release the pressure on the arms and the wrists but forget, the fingers are twisted constantly because of Mr. Qwerty.
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
I also use a Kinesis keyboard, and I am incredibly happy with it.
It has the following (for me) huge advantages:
- your thumbs are no longer wasted, with two fantastic thumbpads, including enter, space, backspace, delete, control (emacs heaven), alt, home, end, pgup and pgdown. This has a really great side effect: absolutely no more long and painful pinky-stretches to get to enter and backspace. Remember that your thumbs are your strongest and most agile digits, and it's a crying shame to waste them both on a space bar.
- the keyboard is separated into two wells, making it so you no longer have to turn your wrist outwards in order to type.
- The wells are shaped _exactly_ like your hand at rest. Let your hand droop in front of you - look at your fingers. The keys are exactly at that depth vis a vis each other.
- The pro is entirely programmable, so if you'd rather use a modern layout like the maltron keyboard, you can. You can see this layout here: maltron layout, but don't buy the maltron keyboard from teleprint, cause I have one and it sucks compared to my kinesis, in size, look and feel.
- The keys are laid out straight up and down, which is a natural movement for your fingers, unlike the diagonal movement a normal keyboard forces you to take.
- (totally anecdotal) My wrists and hands have stopped hurting since I bought this thing. I have never been so happy with a computer product, ever. Well, well worth the price.
- Oh one other note, David Bialick sells these for the best price when I bought mine, and the service is also excellent. His site is http://www.dmb-ergonomics.com/. I am not associated with him.
Cheers,
Paul
The real Paul Vallee is slashdot userid 2192, and, what do you mean it's not cool to point out your low userid?
Dream for emacs (what I use) :-)
A Kinesis pro with esc and +/= swapped. It's awesome!
Paul
The real Paul Vallee is slashdot userid 2192, and, what do you mean it's not cool to point out your low userid?
I'm a four finger typer and I always thought that an ergo keyboards were for dorks and people who were trained to touch type.
After 15 years on the keyboard, (14 when I started - you do the math) I started to feel something weird in the wrists last year.
I bought a MS keyboard this year for home and it took about 2 weeks to get used to it, but I'd never go back. I'll never be as fast as I am on a flat keyboard, but you know what - it doesn't matter. I'm still pretty quick and my wrists feel so much better.
I'm using a flat keyboard at work, and it sucks.
The MS Keyboard and the MS optical mice are both pretty nice.
As Hugh points out, there are some inherent problems with some ergonomic keyboards. In particular, MS has led a trend (of two, that I've seen so far) toward putting the "6" key on the wrong hand.
The really odd thing is that there are split keyboards available from a number of manufacturers for about half what the MS Natural costs, with the "6" in the right place, and I've never had one fail on me. Lite-On, PC-Concepts, and others make split keyboards (without the touch pad) which retail around US$30.
As for the "forward slash" key -- has anyone really seen a keyboard with a US layout which moves the slash/question-mark key?! Backslash, sure... it might be interesting just to catalog all the places mfgs have put that sucker.
It would be nice to get split keyboards without the MS keys on 'em. Those keys are a pain even when I'm stuck running a Micros~6 product!
I prefer the MS Natural keyboard, but not the new "Elite" or "Gold" or whatever they call it these days with the chiclets-size arrow keys and flipped-around home/end/del/pgup/pgdn/ins keys. Go for a clone that gives you the standard arrow-key layout but the same ergonomic touch.
I used to have one of those babies on my Mac, and loved it, for exactly the reasons you describe. Unfortunately, they were unreliable as hell. I went through at least two of 'em because of faulty keys.
That is the real reason why Apple killed 'em off...they were drowning in defective keyboards.
I've been using the Kinesis Classic (programmable one) for about 6 months, and i can't say enough good things about it. I was using the MS Natural keyboard prior to that, but it doesn't compare to this. Not only is it comfortable, but i finally got to put the CTRL and ALT keys where they belong, and i'm not even sure where my caps lock key is mapped to anymore, and i don't care. Anyway, it was about 200 bucks, but worth every penny, considering how much time i spend using it.
I need to find a keyboard for very severe handicap children. With some kind of special keys (hole or bigs keys). Any help ? thank you very much OverLord
Not sure why you aren't able to use 3-button emulation. I know why I can't; I use a Wacom tablet, and the pen only has the capability to click on one button or the other at any given time. So there's no chance of ChordMiddle working.
My solution was to write a small shell script that will reverse the modmap of the pointer so that the 2nd button becomes the 3rd button or vice-versa whenever it is run. Then I made that shell script a keyboard shortcut for easy access.
> I am suggesting that every geek with sore wrists go out and do something physically demanding which will strengthen them
Just make sure you exercise both wrists...;)
> what helps most is not using the mouse
I started using a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) for precisely this reason.
OK, so it's no good for quake, or photoshop, but for point & click stuff it's great.
I'm glad somebody else asked about tarballs. My second thought was of a book by Steven Gould, "The Glass Helm", if I recall.
I find archery is particulary good at working those muscles in the lower arms and wrists. Don't buy into all the compound bow hype unless killing things is your main goal; get a heavy recurve and work at it until you can hit a moving target.
You poor benighted victims of an urban location should probably ignore the above advice...
It has the same action as the better Stinkpad keyboards (like my old 701 butterfly) and has a trackpoint. Only two buttons but I can type all day on it and never have to move more than my fingers to work on it.
The worst keyboard I have ever met was the Qtronix thingy that Corel were shipping with the Netwinder at the beginning. If I can pick up a keyboard and flex the ends by an inch then it is not for me. The fact that it had a tactile response like typing into dead flesh didn't help.
masterbate all the live long day...
Have you seen Ironstayn vs Supergovernment yet?
Along with the basic tenet of Keep your Wrists Straight, the thing to watch for with any keyboard is how can you avoid moving your hand, arms and wrists excessively.
For vi and emacs users, that means watch out for the escape key. (For those who don't use vi or emacs, that means watch out for the mouse. Good luck with that.)
The solution I use to avoid reaching for the escape key is to map the right windows key to escape. This way I can use my right ring finger instead of reaching with my left hand.
Xmodmap: keysym Meta_R = Escape
I shredded up the ulnar sides of my wrists a while back, and got a Kinesis on the company tab (my brother, who had a wrist problem of his own, suggested it to me). Yeah, it takes a couple of weeks to adjust, but once adjusted, your speed will go up, and the stress on your fingers, wrists, and forearms will go down. That's not to say you can't still hurt yourself (I have been typing way too much recently, and am starting to feel it), but the Kinesis can really help quite a bit.
I really do. Most of the reason is because I never learned to type correctly, so my reaches are all messed up...
Same here. I can type over 100 wpm, especially when coding C or Perl, but only on a standard keyboard.
My wife bought me a MiNK for Christmas a couple years ago and I used it for about 9 months at home and ended up selling it to a guy for $10 because it just slowed me down too much. I got a Focus FK-6200 to replace it. It's a Windows keyboard, but I just love the feel of the Focus keyboards. It's like the keyboard becomes an "extension of my mind."
I've learned, in the last ten years I've been hacking code, it's not the keyboard you use that determines whether or not you get unbearable pain in your wrist and forearms. It's the breaks you must take to stretch. If you neglect your stretching, you might as well book an appointment for surgery today.
Ive been thinking of getting one of these for awhile. Either that or a 2 part keyboard. Only thing about keyboards is I keep moving my right hand to use the mouse...
(Tribes - Playing at a Ping Pong Server near you)
Problem is that most kids dont learn how to type correctly. With kids starting at around 4 years old, we might want to start keyboarding classes in elementry school.
I taught myself on a c64, hands on wrong keys, but I used all my fingers. This made my highschool keyboarding class even harder...
My old keyboard is a m$ 1.0 natural with the letters worn off. Might switch to a new 3.0 now that they arrow keys are fixed.
-IronWolve-
(Playing tribes at a Ping Pong server near you..)
A few years ago, in my university days, I did jujitsu, and went through a lot of serious wrist-stretching exercises, and being the victim of other people's locks, throws, etc. I remember those days. Those were the days when I always hurt (and my wrists always hurt.) There may be something to be said for the basic wrist-stretches they teach you, and god knows the breakfall exercises may save your spine on some icy future day, but good lord - Subjecting yourself as training dummy for your classmates, who are no better than you at what they're doing, is a fast way to worsen your problem. The funny thing is, when you're always in pain you don't really notice it, until it's gone. When I discovered that the aches and pains had disappeared over final exams and christmas break, I decided I would not be returning to jujitsu. In recent times, ergonomic keyboards of the Microsoft variety (say what you like about their software, their hardware rocks) are the only concession to wrist strain I have had to make. --Tiger
I have a Microsoft keyboard, and I like it quite a bit. I've got the old one, with the larger arrow keys. I find that it does reduce the strain on my wrists.
One of the big problems with regular keyboards is that the little flip out feet are in the WRONG PLACE! The feet should go on the front of the keyboard to give the keyboard a better angle. If you can't do that then for dog's sake put the keyboard flat and lower your chair! Trust me that's a better thing to do.
The biggest pain for me is the *mouse*. Games always cause some pain for me. I use vi normally when I'm programming, and I never need a mouse for that.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
That's interesting. I'd never thought about speech interfaces being used by someone with an impediment. I would hope that the interface would allow you to define sounds you were comfortable with. I assume you can make a wide variety of sounds, so you could sort of invent your own personal interface language that you could work with.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
--
--
#define private public
I think the previous poster was saying that the MS Natural Elite was crap - which I'd wholeheartedly agree with. I owned the original natural keyboard and loved it. However, when my dad got the elite with his new computer, I couldn't stand it. Luckily, they came out with the pro just before I pieced together my new machine.
I've been happily using it for the last couple months. The key layout is very similar to that on the original, but they've made a few keys smaller (function keys, etc). It doesn't really change the feel too much though. I wish the keyboard were a little more responsive (ie clacky), but the keys are by no means spongy... all in said, I really like it.
I thought the Microsoft Intellimouse w/ IntelliEye was really cool until it just plain stopped working one day. I probably just got a lame mouse, and another would be great, but I have several normal mice and so can't justify getting another one.
Work is for people who lack the imagination to play.
One suggestion for anyone considering buying one: The Kinesis Classic is the cheapest model, but there isn't really any point to buying one of the higher-end ones. (Unless you need Macintosh support, or Dvorak keycaps.) The higher end models have more memory for programming key macros, but you can do this easily enough through your operating system. All models are switchable between the qwerty and Dvorak layouts; the Dvorak models just have different keycaps.
-Damien
I settled on the M$ keyboard as well. I have the second version with the funky vertical key layout for the home,end,delete,pup,pdown,ins but it wasn't hard to adapt to it.
It's comfortable, it's easy to tear down and clean after the inevitable Mountain Dew spill, and it's cheap. (~$40)
Email Sales@kinesis-ergo.com and demand black!
I need a keyboard more cool than the one I'm typing on right now, with the case and keycaps removed.
play softball, raquetball, do some pullups. i play drums, and, even tho i've been typing non-stop for the last 6 or so years, have never had any sort of problems or strain.
:)
keeping yourself relaxed and limber, imho, is a much better (overall, as well) investment than silly split keyboards.
and, if it's mounted to your chair, you cant get horizontal and type from your lap - one of the true joys of computing.
--
blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
I have a Kinesis Classic QD (lets you switch between Qwerty and Dvorak on the fly). I never bothered learning Dvorak, but this keyboard is awesome. It took me a couple months to get back up to original speed, but my wrists don't hurt or feel tired anymore. Well worth the $300 it cost me!
Also, I have no trouble switching back to a normal keyboard when I'm on other computers. But you do tend to feel the tension in your wrists, more proof that Kinesis really works.
-james
If there are heavy restocking fees, don't return the product. Simply put it up on eBay with a minimum bid of how much you'd have gotten after the restocking fee hit.
You'll get more, almost guaranteed. (and if not, -then- return it)
No matter what you do with it, return or eBay, it'll send the manufacturer a financial message because its one less sale for them.
I have the Twiddler. I recommend it for anyone who wants a mobile keyboard. You should be able to get 60 wpm out of it and once you build up, you don't notice the strain on your fingers.
I am not saying hte new one is crap... I am just saying that it has stupid keys.
The Elite is crap. Small keys, diamond shaped arrow keys, etc.
- Hugh Buchanan
- Userfriendly.com
I'm glad you're enjoying those buttons... but since I run linux, Microsoft's software does nothing for me... and those buttons probably won't either.
I think I'm going to replace my original Natural (i've worn off the letters (not that I need them) and some of the keys dont stay in anymore... namely the semicolon and 's' keys...)
- Hugh Buchanan
- Userfriendly.com
A better solution to the problem of needing to rest every so often, is to drink lots of water. I know from experience that you HAVE to take keyboard breaks when you need to pee every 45 minutes. :-)
(Note: Mountain Dew and other beverages don't count. Water is the best.)
..I didn't like the MS natural keyboard, I guess I have larger-than-average hands, but I gotta find something soon. I tried out the MS natural for about two weeks, and hated it. My speed went down, typing mistakes were way up..and I still found it uncomfortable to type. I realize it takes a while to get adjusted, but I think two weeks is long enough.
about 3 years ago I either broke, or severly sprained both my wrists playing basketball, since then, my right wrists makes very strange noises when I roll it around.
shit, last night I played Quake for the first time in a few years, and I had to stop after about 10 minutes because the back of my hand, and wrists were _really_ hurting (I don't use the mouse). I think I might try out one of those Kinesis keyboards before too long..
oh yeah, just for anyone who is wondering about those MS natural keyboards, go ahead and try 'em, MS offers a 30 day money back gaurentee. I had no probs returning mine, even though it had some ashes in it =P
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
http://www.tifaq.org/keyboards.html
Once I started to get wrist pain for 10 hour coding days, I had to switch to a better keyboard. Since work had lots of M$ keyboards around I decided to try it and was very unimpressed. It just feels cheap. Surprisingly, I really liked the ergonomic keyboards from CompUSA (EP35015G). The layout is a little more intuitive, the keyboards a bit higher and the buttons a little more solid.
If you're a heavy emacs user or you just don't like the way your keyboard is layed out, make sure you check out xmodmap (under NetBSD, I know there's something equivalent under Linux) and remap those keys (who really needs a capslock? mine's ctrl). No more pinkie stress. Now if I could just remap the windows keys to something useful.
I did a little searching and found the following website that may have something for Windows:
http://www.tifaq.org/
Look in the software FAQ on the site. There's not that much there but one shareware product for Windows caught my eye:
http://www.rsiguard.com/
I raised the concept of voice-based control, which is the real future (c.f. Star Trek IV). And which makes more sense to control with words, a point-and-drool interface, or a command-line one?
The more I think about it, the more I tbink this is the single best argument about why cli's are still the best choice; they only hurt your wrists NOW because we don't have the speech recognition technology where it needs to be, while mousing can't really be directly rationally with voice commands, unless you want to sit in front of the computer and go "uhh, move the pointer over to the left about three inches. No, not that much. OK, now shift it up a smidge, and click with the right button. While holding down the button, move the mouse over and... Oh the hell with it - computer, launch WordPerfect and load my document".
paul
Silly Rabbit, sigs are for kids.
Agreed. I avoid M$ software like the plague whenever I can, but you have to admit, the beast knows how to make an input device - and fsck it up in a redesign.
The M$ Natural Keyboard is a dream. I've heard quite the opposite about it's revision, the M$ Natural Elite. The Arrow keys are funky on the Elite model (The left, right, and down keys aren't lined up traditionally; it looks more like a cross), and I've heard the angle of the split is different. The non-elite has a more traditional arrowkey layout, generous key size ('specially that huge backspace key ^_^), a comfortable split, and you can raise the front.
It kinda sucks since the Elite model is a lot easier to find than the better, non-elite model.
BTW, this was all typed out with an M$ Natural. I really wanna get a sticker to cover up that ugly logo in it's upper right corner...
Kagenin
PS: Off topic, but has anyone gotten an IntelliEye Explorer to work under GNU/Linux?
"All warfare is based on deception."
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
of ergo keyboards.. I have a pretty bizarre typing style, so the split just screws my wpm up badly. I haven't had a problem with my wrists ever though, and I've been sitting behind a terminal since I was 14 or so.. at what age/after how much use do you start to show wear?
:)
Personally, I like the old school IBM loud-clicky keyboards. Those are the best.
BilldaCat
My Kinesis is my best friend. Its my lover. We code late at night together. I have a MS Natural next to it, but its just not as warm, and loveable as the kinesis.
I highly recomend it.
----
eclip5e
eclip5e@ccs.neu.edu
ICQ #2567792
"Charging a man with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500" -Apocalypse No
This sounds like a good topic for a poll. I'm pretty sure that there was one on this topic a year or so ago, but since things change it would be worth re-running. I'd include at least standard keyboards, the MS Natural (and lookalikes), Kinesis, Maltron, Happy Hacking, chording keyboards, and one-handed ones.
I have adapted to my natural keyboard, so much that to use another keyboard causes me wrist pain within 5 minutes.
That's not good at all. Since you get wrist pain in five minutes from a normal keyboard, your wrists are in pretty bad shape. Your natural keyboard probably saves them from going over the edge, but it doesn't seem to help in healing/b? them. And healing they definitely need.
It seems that the natural keyboard turned out to be a hold-off measure for you, but in your place I would really put an effort into getting your wrists into shape. Shape here means the ability to type on a normal keyboard for months before getting wrist pain (and no, I don't suggest you do that).
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
I started having some minor pain, and got an Adesso <http://www.adessoinc.com/> keyboard (the MCK-208 Tru-Form sans touchpad [picture]). It's great, and I've since gotten one for home as well. It cost me all of $40 US at http://www.warehouse.com/
The great thing is that is has all the keys in the normal places (the 6 is on the left side, BTW), and none of those stupid internet keys like the MS keyboards.
--
Dave <drr@chpc.utah.edu>
After nearly 8 years of serious computer use, my wrists begged for a break. My carpal tunnel had gotten so bad, the doc told me I was about 2 months away from surgery. "Get help, or get surgery," I believe were his exact words.
After scouring the net for a while, I ran into some boards that I was willing to try. The Kinesis looked weird, but had a 60-day guarantee, so I shelled out the $300 for it.
Within 1 week, I was typing at 120% of my old speed, my wrists (while still weak) didn't ache after 8 hours of continuous typing, and I could grip the steering wheel for the drive home after work.
Granted, this keyboard isn't for everyone. But if you're looking for something to try out, give it a shot. The funky layout does take some getting used to. Use the board over the weekend (memorial day weekend, for me), and by the time you get back to work, you'll be used to the layout enough that you won't be fumbling for keys, anymore.
As for their support. BEST I've ever run into. I called them on a Friday afternoon because the keyboard started beeping at me, and wouldn't allow me to use the board, anymore. I called their support line, and DID NOT wait on hold. Their tech told me that this had happened once or twice before, and that it was a bad controller chip. I could send the board in, or if I knew what I was doing, they'd send me a new IC. I opted for the later. He then proceeded to ask me the exact details of when the board died... I picked it up, moved the cord out from under it. Set it down, and beep beep beep beep beep.... They sent me a new IC AND a new cable for it. I got it on Monday morning, before I left for work.
Kudos to Kinesis.
"It compiles, SHIP IT!" -Overheard at Microsoft's development lab
I found that when my symptoms first started I could reduce them by streightening my writs. However wrists bend in two dimentions and even the best posture can only fix on dimension if your sholders are significantly wider than your keyboard. The kinesis has really helped since they key wells are reasonable far apart and rotated slightly so that my wrists can be streight.
An old friend of mine gave me a Kinesis. He got it from a friend who couldn't get used to it. He couldn't get used to it either, so he gave it to me.
It took me about three days to get back up to speed on the thing, but once I did, I wouldn't give it up.
And, as an added bonus, mine doesn't have a windows key on it.
They just rock. Pricy, but worth it.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
Have you ever noticed that your hands always hurt more when you read threads like these?
:)
I type a lot, but the only time I feel pain in my fingers is when I read about RSI. Now, I know most of you think that's totally weird, but it's true!
Remember, everything psychological is just in your head
--
Next-day delivery in a nanosecond world.
I think that keyboard suffered from bad design (most vowels required lots of keys, while some uncommon consonants required one). And I was very slow on it. My typing speed was better if I just used the accessibility API available in WinNT.
I now use a Kenesis Ergo Professional QD in Dvorak mode, and am very happy with it.
A place I semi-consult has a number of ergo keyboards all over the place, and suprisingly I didn't mind them. They felt natural, and if nothing else forced me to adhere to the conventional breakpoint of where your hands should go (that magic line along the TGB/YHN keys). They all have the default Microsoft Natural Keyboards. Probably the only thing worthy of Microsoft besides the Intellimice (well, okay, my Sidewinder doesn't suck too much either).
:)
My typing skills are really kinda good so ymmv. My mom (who was a typing teacher) still cringes a lot, however.
Oh, that newest Microsoft SuperNatural KeyboardElite USB with all those little chicklet buttons along the top? Sucks rocks. Don't even bother to return it.. toss it in the nearest river and spare someone else the agony.
-'fester
wvccsi sells MS Natural Elite for $25. egghead sells MS Natural Pro for $40.
What has helped me the most is a good chair with arm rests at desk level (on which I rest my elbows), a good firm wrist pad in front of the keyboard, and relaxing my wrists. When I let my wrists rest naturally, my hands are angled slightly inward, but my fingers still rest on home row.
If I go for more than an hour without following these guidelines, I start to feel it in my wrists or hands. Otherwise, I can type all day without any discomfort.
On the rodent side, I find a trackball is more comfortable than a traditional mouse.
>Yes but can you play Quake with it?
Like a fiend! Check out Kinesis Game Central . The keys are all in rows and columns, this means that you don't have to worry about the diagonals messing you up, it's like having a really nice numberpad in a convenient place. It's a lot better for mapping keys than a regular keyboard. Bad for nethack though.
I will second that. Even at a grad student's salary I have no regrets about the cash I shelled out for my kinesis. It's some of the best money I have ever spent. It's like having a nice pair of shoes after wearing velcro ones from Walmart all your life. Definately the best money I've ever spent on computer equipment.
You should take this with a grain of salt. A lot of wrist problems are RSI, the key to this comment is the R, repetative. In order to recover you don't need to do more of what's hurting you, using your wrists, you need to do less! If you're in pain go see a doctor. You may need to strengthen them but I'd be wary of doing it in the uncontrolled arena of aikido or anything else that's not physical therapy.
I'm sorry. I thought you implied that the 31337^H^H^H^H^Helite was the new natural keyboard. After rereading your post I saw I was wrong.
cu
--
Weasel
The Microsoft Natural Elite (released 98 I think) is crap. They just released a new Natural that looks the same as the original, except with these stupid internet keys up top. (do these work in linux at all.. can i remap them? anyone done this?)
The Natural Pro is the one wich looks like the old Natural but what makes you think it's crap? Just because it has a few keys nobody uses anyway? (They produce a scancode on the vc but no xevent as of Xfree 3.3.6; maybe later version will include support).
I really like it since it has big modifier keys (ctrl, alt, meta) and the cursor keys are located like a reversed T and not in that stupid cross shape like the 2nd natural keyboard had.
FYI
--
Weasel
I have been using a Kinesis contoured keyboard for about six years, and I love it. It looks a bit weird and takes a bit of getting used to, but it is the fastest, most comfortable keyboard I have ever used. The shape also makes it great if you want to recline back in your chair and put the keyboard on your lap.
the fact is, it's all about your wrist/hand position,.. regardless of how the plastic is shaped there is a right and many wrong ways to make use of any device,.. mouse, keyboard, dildo, whatever. using it improperly repeatedly will result in injury.
i have been typing since i was 2 years old, i use standard, run-of-the-mill $12 keyboards, and since i started paying attention to my typing methods, i no longer get carpal tunnel or any other kind of wrist/hand pains.
"ergonomic" keyboards are incomfortable for me, i have large hands and i often mix what keys my index fingers will type.
i urge everyone to avoid "ergonomic" devices as much as possible,.. succumbing to bullshit marketing ploys only sends the message that we're ripe for more. you can't complain about lies in advertisement when you fall for them yourself.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
I have not any Natural keyboard, but I have had opportunities to try few. One thing I noticed,
and that would bug me if I ever buy M$ Natural.
Problem is in arrow keys:
Older M$ model is just like in standard keyboards,
and there is nothing wrong.
[__]
[__][__][__]
In newer M$ Naturals arrow keys are like this:
[__]
[__][__]
[__]
Can you imagine using "three finger technique" in
this new layout, without modifying your hand!
Ok, this just one small (or not so small) thing to
consider, depending of keyboard usage. I recommend some testing arrow keys also, not just main keyboard.
When using only one finger, it doesn't matter thought.
Jarkko
I'm not sure I understand why people think voice recognition would be so great, even if it was incredibly accurate. I know I wouldn't use it. Do you want to talk to your computer all day? It's great for the people that can't type, or if you need to do something moderatly quickly, but I don't really want to try coding with it.
"Left brace. Return. Indent. int foo equals 3 semicolon. No wait, I need a float. Arg! It's typing what I'm saying! Delete delete delete delete delete!"
And so on.
I don't do sigs.
Hey.. Rob, I was thinking of trying that very same keyboard despite the somewhat prohibitive cost. Would you recomend using? I'de wrather keep using my regular mouse if that's possible - maybe mount it seperately on the chair itself... Any thoughts?
Have a Happy.
I also really liked the original MS natural keyboard. As you point out, the Elite was a flop. But the Pro is the best yet! The extra keys on top are pretty useless, but the keys have a better tactile response. I'm typing noticeably quicker with it. Try to find one in a store that you can try out.
-Adam
The ZX Spectrum had BASIC keywords bound to it's keys (eg J had Load, T Randomize etc) It improved typing speed for the expert, but it was a real pain in the arse for the beginner. A generation of programmers have been ruined in the UK, I suspect, because they couldn't move onto "real" keyboards.
I've found that most of my discomfot comes from the unnatural contortions I have to put my wrists through to get comfortable. Last year I bought a Logitech (radio) cordless kb and mouse. What a difference! Sometimes I plop it it my lap. Sometimes I set it on the desk. Sometimes I set it on my stomach. Variety is the idea. Repitition produces stress.
Handykey has a terrible return policy, though. I asked, prior to a possible purchase, and received this response from Chris George, :
"Once you buy it, it is yours. There is no return for a refund. We will repair/replace for 3 years after purchase at no charge, if there is a malfunction."
Since I have never used a one-handed keyboard, and thus cannot know whether I am compatible with such a device, I require a much saner return policy than that. Especially for a $200 product.
Yo. Use xmodmap if you're using your MS natural keyboard with a Sun.
You can start with this:
!
! Bindings for Microsoft Ergo keyboard for
! Sun X/Openwin use.
! not the grooviest, but may save someone time.
! put control key where it should & throw
! away CAPS_LOCK
remove Lock = Caps_Lock
remove Control = Control_L
keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
add Control = Control_L
! left alt key acts as the Sun left
! meta (diamond) key
keycode 26 = Meta_L
! left control key to sun Front key
keycode 83 = F15
If you're using it with WinDoze, there are some control apps that can swap the keys.
Check out Wednesday's Doctor Fun. It's about ergonomics. He must be a /. reader.
Okay, so I didn't have the typical carpal tunnel thing, but I did have a fractured wrist from rollerhockey.
Ever since my injury, when I use a flat keyboard for more than 6 hours, I feel pain. When I use the split Microsloth keyboard I'm fine and can go for months. Note: this is *not* the one which tilts toward you. That one is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I use the one which tilts away from you both at home and at work.
But I actually have four things going for me:
1) The Microsoft keyboard (tilt-away model).
2) A mousepad with wristpad.
3) A chair, desk, monitor at the right height.
4) An electronic A/B port so I only have one keyboard and one mouse for my two computers (Sun and Dell).
I just bought one today. Great deal - $49.99 -$20.00 mail in rebate for the keyboard and wheel mouse bundle. Office Max (and I'm sure other places too)- UPC# 659556286880
I'll join the club -- I have an old MS Ergo that someone gave me when the spacebar quit working on it. On a whim, I decided to try it one day when my hands were bothering me. I fixed the spacebar, and have never regretted it. We bought ergo-style keyboards for all of the other people here who wanted them.?p?
Things to note:?p?
?ul?
?li? Not all are alike. Some put the '6' key on the right-hand half of the keyboard, and some on the left. If you're a native touch-typist, you go for the '6' with your left hand, and if it's on the right half you will go crazy. The MS ergo and one of our Logitech's put it on the left where it belongs.
?li?A great number of them (like the Logitech model) hork around with rearrangements of the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys. Why? This is inane and makes habitual interoperability with other keyboards impossible.
?/ul?
-- There is no truth. There is only Perception. To Percieve is to Exist.
I agree that the cross arrows are annoying, but they're a lot easier to get used to than the rotated home/end/etc block. I still have to look at those to use them, and I've been using this keyboard for more than a year now. I'd love to find a similar split keyboard with standard layout, and key size (or bigger). I'd have a really hard time going back to a normal keyboard now, because I've gotten used to not having my very big hands right against one another. At this point, when I get stuck on a standard sized keyboard, I just type with one hand, as they're only slightly too large for me to easily reach all the keys without moving my hand side to side at all.
Intolerant people should be shot.
I don't mind the 6 on the left. It's a better split, and I never did learn to use the proper fingers to type. I learned the key locations, so I can type without looking, by moving my hands, and using primarily the middle and index fingers, plus the left pinky for the leftmost keys. And I can still put out an easy 60-70 words most days. When I really get going I can easily clear 80. The only real problem I have with the split is that the F6 is on the right, which seems counter-intuitive when there are 12 F keys. Split them evenly into 3 x 4 or 2 x 6 please, I type by instinct.
Intolerant people should be shot.
The M$ Natural Keyboard is my least favorite keyboard. It has one critical design flaw -- the "6" key is located on the left side of the keyboard. [Other manufacturers make the same mistake.] When I took touch typing in high school, I was trained to use the right index finger to reach for the "6" key.
I use a Belkin Ergonomic Smart Keyboard -- the "6" key is in the right place, and it's cheapter than the M$ Natrual.
I usually used R-F-D-G for my death matches. I find I can hit _alot_ of keys with my pinky and thumb while still moveing with my other three fingers and the mouse.
Dionysus vs, Socrates! The greatest battle of all time!
I suffered pretty severely from carpal tunnel for years. When I switched to a Dvorak keyboard layout, the pain went away, literally in a month. I've not had to use my braces since using Dvorak. I did have a problem 3 years ago with over-using my mouse. But never a keyboard pain with Dvorak. Even if you aren't faster (and I feel I am) Dvorak means less pain.
Drew
Be careful what you wish for...
Where your treasure is there is your heart also...
Get the boss to buy one. >;)
Since I have recently taken over the management of the departmental website, and we don't pay for everyone to get a copy of MS FrontPage (Thank GHOD we don't!) I do most of my HTML coding in vi or XEmacs.
Maybe I can get him to buy one...
It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire
Who here has used the twiddler, and did it feel better or worse than the 104? I like the idea of hanging my arms anywhere I like, and switching hands, but I'm not sure it improves movement overall.
What other 1-handed keyboards would you consider, or would you consider them at all?
I play guitar and keyboards plus type code so my wrists take a lot of abuse...
I have mounted my mousepad to the arm of my chair and place my keyboard in my lap. I use the old style IBM keyboards (mine is a ~10 years old). This allows me to constanly change my postion in the chair and move the keyboard around to change the angle my wrists are at to the keyboard. It works for me.
One of the big secrets to avoiding wrists problems is to find a postion that allows you to work with your wrists in a straight but relaxed postion and take a break when ever your wrists even begin to feel tight.
I would recomend borrowing a few different keyboards and trying them for a few days at a time. Everybody is built a little different, no one keyboard is going to be best for everyone.
Good luck!
AdFuel
I think the best way is to email flood pckeyboard.com to make a buckling spring version of spliters. Another solution would be find a northgate spliter. although, personally i have no problem with my wrist.
I hate to admit to this (script kiddies go flame someone who cares) but I use and love Microsoft's Natural Keyboard. Outside of being stylish (which really only serves to interest my non-computer friends) it's worked flawlessly now for two years, feels great to the touch and doesn't include a mouse touchpad! (Personal issue, I prefer to have my mouse capable of travelling away from my keyboard. :).
- ---------------
- jc
-----------------------------------------------
James C. Diggans
jdiggans@excelsior-web.com
I went through a lot of problems with my right wrist which turned out to be caused by my mouse usage. I switched to a trackball and have been much happier since.
My current favorite is the Logitech Trackman Marble FX. It has a large finger-operated ball, so it doesn't tire out my thumb.
Maybe one of those head sticks, that really disabled people use?
...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
Or maybe that totally-possible-and-in-production system that Denzel Washington has in "The Bone Collector". You know? The single button/trackpad combo, with complex voice commands...?
Yeah, that'd be it.
Oh, on the ergo keyboard I had, the "home" and "end" keys were switched, never figured out why...
They are better though.
Mong.
* Paul Madley
*...Slacker, Artist, Techie - Geek *
Remember: Nothing is Cool.
I second that. One of its best features is the small size, it allows one to place one's trackball or rodent in the proper position, closer to the body's centreline. If you need a numeric keypad, get a separate one, I prefer mine on the left anyway and that's not an option with a standard keyboard. If you like vi you'll apreciate not having the escape key up in Alaska!
I would also recommend a good trackball, I use the Logitech Marble Mouse (its really a trackball in spite of its name) is good and fairly inexpensive, also the Mousetrak models from ITAC are good well made products, they can take a pounding from the crowd at Detroit's auto show without breaking down. The downside is that they are a bit pricey, and noisy,very smooth, but noisy.
Interresting..switching to dvorak in windows is not any more difficult than changeing the keyboars setting (or did you mean the ecs/caps lock switch). Anyway, where can I find a keyboard with the dvorak layout???
Worked on my keyboard today!! I had been searching for a long time for an ergonomic keyboard. When I saw this discussion, I read and re-read all of the messages and really started thinking seriously about purchasing a high end ergonomic keyboard because the knuckles of my fingers were really starting to hurt! I thought that a more expensive or more ergonomic keyboard would help me. One thing I decided after a while of searching was that I really do not like or use the keyboard number pad. So, I opened up my own keyboard to see if I could saw the bugger off. Well, what I discovered was that there is this big steel plate right under the keys. There is hardly anything from stopping you from hitting it with the keys. In fact, I think that is the purpose of it. So as you type away, you are jamming your fingers by impacting the keys against this big metal plate over, and over, and over. No wonder my hands felt like hell after chatting or typing!
What I just did was to remove the heavy steel plate and replace it will thick (but soft) cardboard. Now the typing impact is much kinder on my hands and the keyboard weighs much less. It is a little difference in typing than before, but I seem to have adjusted by the time I have written these words. Pretty good use of ergonomics, is it not?
I've been using the MS natural keyboard for over a year and a half, and while it hasn't fixed my wrist problems, it certainly helps a lot. I used a straight keyboard for years, typing nonstop day and night, resulting in that wonderful repetitive stress disorder, Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. Unfortunately, I dont have the option to just not type. Instead, while typing, every hour or so i take a break and exercise my hands and fingers. I also use wrist braces whenever i start feeling hot tingles in my fingers. So far it's kept me away from surgery and painkillers.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I am perticular about keyboards, but not the shape so much, just the touch. My favorite keyboard is my old focus 5001, I find focus keyboards are often quick clicky and nice. I also like those big old metal ibm keybords, those will last for ever, and you can't get any louder than that.
I went out on a search to find a left-handed mouse as soon as I read your plee, but could not find one. Strange, I know Logitech used to make one (and a good one, from what my left-handed users used to tell me). I did find plenty of unilateral mice, though, which should at least meet users half-way.
Even if I was left-handed, this wouldn't be much of an issure for me. I personal don't like the Intellimouse, or the Natural keyboard, or most any other MS Hardware...its a little overpriced in my opinion. Now the old IBM tactile keyboard...
"Nobody owns the fucking words man." - James Dean
I have a IBM super-clicky keyboard on my Linux box and a Belkin Ergoboard, which is a WONDERFUL keyboard, on my windows machine.
The IBM feels wonderful, and the loud, testasterone-rush-inducing clicks make it a keyboard I will never give away. I got it by luck from my sister who grabbed it out of the trash knowing I'd love it.. (I love her!)
The Belkin allows me to type faster, and the windows keys are useful in windows... Also, at $25-30 they are a great deal. We have 6 or so here at work and everyone loves them.
However, I've always wanted to learn how to use the DVORAK layout, those pit-keyboards, and most of all, a combination hand-help keyboard ala the wearable computers. Anyone have any experience with any of these?
I've been using MS ergo, Logitech Ergo and Cirque WaveKeyboard. I didn't like the MS keyboard at all, it was better than normal Keytronic but missed 'the touch'. Then I bought Cirque for home use, which I found excellent from the very beginning. At work I use Logitech keyboard, which looks like the MS model but has better touch and layout.
www.cirque.com
I've had more or less serious problems with my wrists for the past few years now and each time it was getting worse a keyboard change would work.
:)
My theory is that no matter what keyboard you use, it forces holding your shoulders in wrists in the same position for hours a day, which is bad regardless of the position. The solution is to change your keyboard to another one, forcing a considerably different hands position every couple of months. Getting used to a new keyboard takes a few (usually frustrating) days, but that's how you know you start using different moves while typing.
But then again, I'm not a doctor and the above is only a layman's theory, but it does work. Feel free to tell me that it should not, anyway
A couple of days ago my right wrist really got me panicked as I felt pain in it for 2 (two) days after I stopped typing. So far I changed the keyboard to M$ Natural Elite and it seems to work for me so far.
I got severe tendinitis in my wrists from playing cello, which pretty much ended that career. I have been born again as a programmer/unix guy.
I don't have any problems with typing at all, mostly because I never learned how to type. I can type nearly as fast as people with proper typing skills, but I have no pain in my wrists whatsoever because there is aboslutely no pattern to my typing and i use the big muscles of my arms much more than the tendons in my wrists/fingers.
Any standard keyboard works fine for me, though I do have a terrible time with those ergo keyboards.
Basically, if your wrists are so destroyed that you can't type anymore-just try to forget how and you will be ok.
Unfortunately, it has a learning curve and I haven't had time to get proficient. It also has the current drawbacks of requiring special drivers, and it uses the serial port instead of the keyboard port.
"Real Soon Now" HandyKey is supposed to come out with the Twiddler 2, which will connect to and use for I/O the keyboard and mouse ports.
You'll still have the learning curve, but at least you won't have to deal with the bad existing Linux drivers out there.
Andrew Mossberg
Inicom, Inc.
-a.e.mossberg
For home, I have a Logitech split keyboard with built-in touchpad. Like emacs, you either love the touchpad or hate it, but it's working wonders for me. Oh, and I ordered everything from www.logitech.com.
Unix: Where
I have never had wrist pains, although the last five or so years I have regularly typed for hours every day. Well, if not always typed, then used the same crappy keyboards and mice to play games etc.
:)
But I also try to keep my hands (as well as other body parts) in some shape. I'm not sporty in any way, but I like to ride bike, I shoot pistol almost well and I can do twenty push-ups anytime (I really don't know what would be a nerd standard).
Having a five kilogram weight somewhere near the workstation is a good idea. Just holding it in your hands when reading stuff or browsing web makes you use different muscles than when typing. Of course it'd be a bad idea for Windows users, they'd smash their computers to pieces with the weight the nth time they bluescreened
NOSPAM@REMOVETHIS.NO.SPAM - you'll find the real address somewhere
I've found that regardless of which keyboard you are on, having your wrists elevated helps reduce strain quite a bit.
A few words about the MS keyboard though. First, stay away from the newer version, the "elite". It's designed for a smaller footprint (which, in keyboard terms, is almost always bad). The function keys are half the height, the arrow key pad, a bit odd. I don't know if MS still makes the original version, but a few places around still sell them.
Another warning is that these keyboards are not the most durable. The key faces and wrist rest wear down and lose the textured top (becoming a slick plastic surface). Not really a big problem, but you can definately feel the difference over time.
Lastly, they keyboard uses those plastic rubber bubbles to give tactile response. This means it is quiet (a plus for some, minus for others), but it also means that you don't get a solid click when pushing the keys down.
The keysizes are all good except for the average sized enter key (a double width key) which is also not a big problem.
Just thought I'd share =)
Take breaks!
I've messed with a bunch of ergo-devices, but the thing that really, really helped was xwrits. It is designed to force you to take breaks every N minutes, and it is heavily customizable for maximum annoyance until you take your break. I have mine set to make me stop every 45 minutes for 5 minutes. If I ignore my break for five or more minutes, it starts flipping me off (and, yes, you can set your culture preference for the "flipoff" hand gesture).
-Mike
No actually I was merely stating that I have been typing and that I currently have no problems. That is very different from saying that I don't believe in something (RSI) because it dosn't happen to me. I was just stating a test case for information.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Where can I find a tarball for aikido? ;)
Seriously, though, you're completely correct from my experience. I was having little wrist pain for a while, and I'm only 19. After only a week of some decent exercise, it started to go away and I haven't stopped since. Fear of losing functionality of some integral body parts was enough for me. Maybe people should send those checks for ergo keyboards to the gym instead. It seems like a lot of these problems simply come from extreme duration computer use.
Everyone! Get out of your chairs! Go see the sun. It's still out there. Trust me. Geek and out of shape don't have to be synonymous.
BrandonAt the risk of sounding like an AOLer, I have to say me too. I've had my kinesis for 2 years, and not only are my wrists not numb and sore all the time anymore, but I type twice as fast. I wasn't a great typist before I got this, and one of the coolest side effects was it kept me honest to the home keys, and eventually I learned to use those pinkies.
On a side note, it also acts as security by obscurity in my office, as my coworkers are too afraid of my goofy looking keyboard to ever get on my machine.
"hard work often pays off over time, but laziness always pays off now."
I definately agree with this post (except for the taking up smoking part). I bought a generic split keyboard a few years ago, and it's the best thing I've ever done. When I'm in the computer lab here at school, my wrists start to hurt when typing fast, but I can hack code for hours on end with this keyboard. I can even type faster on the natural keyboard than the standard keyboards. The only quirk about this keyboard is the placement of the \ key. It's to the right of the right shift key, but I got used to it pretty quickly. Definately go down to your local computer store and try out different keyboards that they have there. It is a big help to make sure you can type comfortably on it before you buy it.
:-)
I also used to use the first MS natural keyboard. It was a pretty good keyboard (still use it when I go back home), but it put the 6 key on the wrong side of the split. It did teach me to hit the b with my left hand tho
One other keyboard that I've seen is the Twiddler (http://www.handkey.com/). I've always wanted to try this one out, but it is a bit expensive at US$200. It's basically a one handed keyboard/mouse. If you get a chance, check it out.
I also have been using MS natural keyboard for a couple of months now. The only problem is that it's wrist supports are way too small.
Otherwise it is great.
-- ++
When I owned a PC, I bought one of the original MS Natural Keybaords and loved it. When I sold my PC, I loaned to keyboard to a buddy of mine to use at work.. he's still using it.
I have found that changing the type of mouse I use also helped with wrist/arm pain. After much debate, I bought one of the MS Intellimouse Explorers to use on my Blue&White G3. It's a great mouse, even if it does come from Microsoft. It seems to have helped a lot with the discomfort I feel after using the computer for a while. I recently replaced the mouse on the PC I use at work with the Intellimouse Explorer also (although I had to use a USB->PS/2 converter because of NT).
I also added a couple of keyboard trays to my desk at work, one is a Kensington EasyMount Undershelf II and the other is a similar model from Fellowes. Adjusting the height & position of keyboard makes a workspace a lot more comfortable... as many of you already know.
Now a question.... I have an HP C3000 HP-UX workstation here at work also.. the Keyboard and mouse are both USB. You think that there would be any problems with swapping the keyboard and mouse with other USB models? I really do not like the feel of the "stock" keyboard and the mouse is a bit too uncomfortable to use. I have been meaning to bring my Apple USB Keyboard form home to try out, just to see if it works, but not taken the time to do it yet.
I went to see the doctor and he recommended using a aerobic weight (about 2 Kg), resting my forearm flat on a surface with the palm facing down and then lifting the weight up using only my wrist and holding it there for 30 seconds or so.
I've been doing this for the last few weeks and it seems to be helping.
I use the Kinesis Essential keyboard at both work and home, and I could never go back. It does cost quite a bit and take some getting used to, but it eliminated all the wrist pain I used to have with wave keyboards like the MS Natural. You can get a programmable version as well. The lack of a numerical keypad is a bit of a drawback (works just like a laptop - you have to toggle it on and use the right-hand keys), but if you can live without one I strongly suggest checking it out. I believe it cost me about $290 shipped. It comes with two adhesive pads that you place under your wrists to avoid resting on the plastic, which make it more comfortable (I don't think any of the photos show that).
-Entropy [think outside the system]
Well, I know that my MS natural works great. It does take some times to get used to it (my friends all used to complain about it when they tried to do anything w/my computer), but after using it for over a year, I have problems using any other keyboard.
Now, if only someone would make a keyboard with the Caps & Ctrl keys in the positions they are on Sun machines, but leave all the other buttons alone....Yeah, I could screw around with keyboard mapping, but it'd be much easier just to have the keys in the right places.
If Microsoft would stick to making mice and keyboards, the world would be a better place.
Eruantalon
Eruantalon
The Annals of Middle-earth
actually i have to second that. i stopped doing aikido about six months ago, and even though i'm typing less and being more careful with posture and general ergonomics, i have having more trouble with my wrists. in general i find that if i get a decent 1-2 hours exercise 2-3 times a week, i can type forever, on anything and not really have problems. aikido is the best form of exercise i've found for this though (and it's fun).
Wow! That's a great deal; they must have lowered the prices in recent years. Or maybe it's because I was pricing them through the RS/6000 Unix division, and it was "server" markup. :)
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She also types well over 100 wpm for sustained amounts of time, channeling streams of thoguht through her hands; she started out on a manual typewriter, then an electric typewriter, and now a computer keyboard. So I'll just tell you how she types.
She uses her index fingers, and that's it. I'm not kidding. Well, she uses her thumbs on the spacebar, but none of her other fingers. She really does go over 100 wpm, too. It's pretty amazing, it's like a damn machine gun when she gets going. But by using only her index fingers, she keeps her wrists straight, and that's really the key.
Of course, part of the equation is also having started on a manual typewriter. It made her wrists strong. It also gave her an incredibly heavy touch on the keyboard. We go through one about every eight months because she thinks she's still using a manual typewriter.
So there's my recommendation: a regular old keyboard and two fingers. It's probably a bit late to get the wrist strength, but you can try. Good luck.
I just hope the guys at the dojo take it the right way, when I tell them I'm just doing aikido to be able to play UT longer.
If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
I have a Natural keyboard at work, and another one of the same model (Natural classic) at home. The work one has a bad left Alt key, so when I'm on the NT box and need to give the 3-finger salute (which is whenever I lock the keyboard, and whenever it crashes.... :-), I get to use the RH one.
The one at home is going strong, despite my tendency to eat my meals at the keyboard. I bought a PII machine last year and it came with the Elite keyboard. It's almost OK, but I don't much like the revised pageup/pagedown keys--I hit the insert toggle when intending to page. It's also a bit light for my taste.
On desk rodents, I've gone through several. Some people swear by the Glide trackpad. I swore at my MK I trackpad, and it's gathering dust. (I haven't tried the large one, but it was the hand position that bothered me.) I've been pretty happy with the Contour Mouse in extra large at work, and with a large at home. (couldn't find the XL at retail, and needed a mouse right away.) I get a better position from the Contour than anything else.
Someone at work has a joystick-looking pointer--it's a mouse, but with a handgrip at a natural angle. Looks fairly comfortable, but I've learned not to buy a pointer without playing with one.
Beyond equipment, there's technique. I strongly recommend the approach layed out by _The Hand Book_ by Stephanie Brown, isbn: 1-884388-01-9
BTW, for me, I did better with an instructor, a pianist who also ran into rsi problems. qwerty or piano, it's much the same problem....
As a further note, I've heard about some folks who went to a voice recognition system to ease the wrist strain. Yup, voice problems. Do one thing too much and it hurts, I guess.
Pete
Of course, their standard machine keyboards are available for much less.
But if you're looking for that old "throw it across the room and kill the cat because it's so heavy" IBM keyboard. I've seen plenty at swap meets for about $2 a dozen.
Finally someone who understands my pain, I have used one of these old IBM keyboards since i rescued it from my dad's old 286. I can usually tell when i've made a typo just simply from the sound of the click "scary aint it" i've been programming for around 5 years now and have yet to have any problems with my wrists (I also study Okinawan Shorin-Ryu, so that might make a difference)
P.S. have you found any way to get more of these wonderful keyboards, i have 5 computers but only one of these keyboards???
May the forces of evil be confused on the way to your inbox.
Plus they have spectacular customer service. I had a small problem with a broken key and they sent me replacement parts no questions asked. I'm really enjoying mine!
Problem with M$ Natural is you can't change the angle of your wrists, which you should be able to (correct me if I'm thinking of an old version). So, I use and recommend the Cherry Ergnomical, it's very flexible, also with the feet, theres a couple of different settings you can try. Works quite nicely! Oh, but watch out, I got screwed buying it, as I don't have the numpad, which is connected via ps/2 to the back of the keyboard. But from what I know the extern numpad is bundled with the acutal keyboard (normally :-( ).
The corrolary to this is that, if you have trouble, find a good doctor (specialist, really) who knows what he/she is doing.
My own experience was that, since I didn't have insurance when the problems started, I tried everything I could think of, including buying and borrowing every ergonomic device I could get my hands on. This is what medical professionals drily refer to as "self-medicating." Nothing worked, and fortunately, I didn't spend too much.
Months later, when I finally got good insurance, I asked around to find the best doctor I could. With a small injection, a brace, and some good advice, I was suddenly 100% back to normal. This is lucky, of course, and it may not last, but honestly, if your wrists bother you, GO TO A DOCTOR! Hesitating or procrastinating can have serious, permanent consequences. Catching it early and learning about what you need to do to stay healthy is really important.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I switched to Dvorak after having many problems with my hands. Now my typing speed has increased from ~75wpm to 105wpm and my hands feel better than ever. As I'm a vi junkie, I also swapped the caps-lock and the ESC keys, as I never use caps-lock. This has caused me problems when using other machines besides mine (especially when I am telneting and using vi on those machines) more than Dvorak has (especially since you can't possibly make this change on Windows). I did also get myself a good chair (The Aeron by Herman Miller) and the MS natural keyboard and a Logitech trackball. I don't have any problems at all now.
I used to hate ergonomic keyboards, then I tried one of the Belkins at my office, and absolutely love them. The thing that's best about them IMHO is that they have tabs to raise up the front of the keyboard, thereby eliminating the weird wrist angle that Microsoft keyboards impart (this is not a flame against MS keyboards, they just don't work for my hands). Plus, these keyboards are only $25, I ordered one for myself through Egghead. Belkin part number F8E208.
Lexmark used to make a split keyboard with the "IBM touch." The two halves were on a pivot, and you could even separate them completely by up to 6 inches. They are discontinued; Lexmark is entirely out of the keyboard business.
Goldtouch (http://www.goldtouch.com) makes a keyboard which looks similar to the Lexmark, except that the halves do not separate. It claims "Full size, full travel, tactile feedback keys with soft end-stop". Sounds good, except perhaps for "soft end-stop," whatever that is. I do *not* have one of these; all I know is gathered from their web site. (My wrists are OK so far, and my old Northgate and IBM models are holding up.)
I guess I'm the only one using u,h,j,k (I'm left-handed)
Mikael Jacobson
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Too many keyboard fans end up endorsing keyboards with no numberic pad (eg Kinesis). This takes us back to the original XT or even (ugg) VT-100. If I'm entering a long list of numbers into a spreadsheet, I don't want to do it all on keys two rows off the home row. I'd rather do it on a compact pad that's been in use for much of the past century. Phones don't give us one long row across the top, and that's only for seven digits.
I'm comfortable on a standard cheap AT keyboard, and haven't taken the time to get over the "this is weird" learning curve of the split keyboards. So I have nothing against them so long as they find somewhere to put the keypad. On those with wide splits, there is room in the middle for those times when you have enough numbers to leave the home row. How come all of the examples of wide splits that have shown up here seem to have blank plastic in the middle, with no keypad in sight? Do people WANT to return to the VT disaster?
I've been using keyboards intensively since '71 (which I think makes me a lot older than the average slashdot reader). I started juggling as a hobby in '75. Knock wood, but no wrist pain thus far. As an advantage, juggling is fun!
been using for 6 mths. seems to me, tho, that no matter what u use u need to vary the routine, that's the most important thing. and be very aware. i can't make myself take breaks while i'm working - i get too wrapped up in it - but i try not to use a computer at home or on the weekends. far from ideal, but it works for me, mostly. also, u can do a lot of damage or a lot of healing at night - don't sleep on your hands! don't sleep with them in bent positions. this is nearly impossible, so when my wrists act up i sometimes sleep with a wrist brace - the real kind, with a metal plate in it - cost $20 each. but yes, i like the split kbd. slows my typing down a little, but i'm a complete hack typist not a touch typist. when i use my regular kbd at home my wrsits/hands start to get fucked up after an hour or so (that's after programming all day at work). i could go on all day, but to be concise, i'll leave it at that.
I really do. Most of the reason is because I never learned to type correctly, so my reaches are all messed up. So the split just kills me. I prefer the older non windoze 9x keyboards, and if you want to get specific, the compaq keyboards. They keys are just right for me, and I find that the way the space them has really increased my ability to circle strafe. That's the other thing with the ergo keyboards, it kills my circle strafe. But unlike Cmdr. Taco, I don't type for hours at a time. I'm a networking geek, so most of my typing is in short burst of command line phrases and moving around with my arrow keys.
GIHM -The light at the end of the tunnel is only the oncoming train.
I love the Microsoft Natural Keyboard. I use it for everything now that I am used to it, I can type faster than ever. The one thing it is NO good for, though, is DeathMatch. The arrow keys are very awkwardly placed. I usually use an old Dell QuietKey for games, and my MNK for everything else.
seriouslyexcited.net
Oh yeah! Ive got a mouse systems KB.... love it. I got it for free at compusa with a mail in rebate. In general Ergo KBs are good when the center is raised. Ones with an indented center are really unconmfortable.
the real shiftaling has user number 5134
Karma: -43 and DROPPING!!!
Many companies are looking into basic (really basic!) research now for better keyboards, though few (if any) are offering a great product. I don't suffer RSI, but for other reasons (wearable computing!) I am very interested in the report that vertical keyboarding (a al accordians) creates far less stress in the wrists.
If a vertical, double-sided, very lightweight keyboard (hanging around the neck, perhaps) became available, would your friend be able to use one?
Btw, it's interesting that pianists never seem to suffer RSI, isn't it? I suspect many who develop carpal tunnel syndrome hit the keys too hard -- sometimes because the keyboards are too stiff!
I recently purchased the Twiddler (mostly because I'm getting interested in wearable computing) and am still training myself up on it. The basic keymap that it goes with is not as good as it could be; too many common keys require the use of the pinky (notably T and Enter). The device itself could also be physically better designed...the thumb buttons can require awkward hand positions.
That said, remapping keys with the Twiddler is trivial and, as long as you are relearning your typing skills anyway, you can customize it any way you like. Also, the ability to put your hand and arm in any position you like is wonderful--it has almost totally eliminated typing stress for me, and I look forward to using the Twiddler as my only keyboard.
The Twiddler is also a mouse...you tip it to move the pointer. This forces you to exercise your wrist whenever you are using the mouse, which further helps to alleviate wrist pain. Again, the implementation could be slightly better...the pointer moves at a constant rate regardless of how fast you tip it, which means that its range of motion is more constrained than a deskbound mouse, forcing you to reposition it more often. This is be a technologically solvable problem which could be fixed when the Twiddler2 comes out.
Finally, the Twiddler's macro capabilites are exceptional and can pretty much eliminate any common typing you need. There are 12 finger keys and 5 thumb buttons, giving an enormous number of possible macros and setting them up is trivial.
All in all, I recommend the Twiddler. For $199 USD, it's a very good deal.
I use the Cherry G80-5000 (w/o W95-keys) for several years now and I like it very much. The seperate numblock is great. With a trackpoint it would be perfect for me.
As it is, the worst I can say is that it gets dirty like the others.
Censorship on Slashdot
I've had the Microsoft Natural at home for a few years now, and recently got the Natural Elite for work. I think both are great. Neither one has given me any problems, and hold up well to abuse (my home keyboard has been dropped, squished, and transported to three different apartments in two states - never had a problem).
I would, however, avoid the Natural Pro or any other keyboard that comines software-driven function buttons or touchpads into the device. I have yet to hear of someone that didn't have problems with them.
That's just my 2...
In answer to the original question, to the best of my knowledge I had experienced no symptoms till about a year ago, then after playing starcraft one day I noticed that my wrists were hurting. Now, i experience symptoms on a daily basis, and have been actively trying to find a solution to the problem. I am currently using a goldtouch keyboard(adjustable split kb), but my biggest problems come from the mouse and the arrow keys, and I have yet to find a reliable solution to these problems.
Good piano technique involves both knowing the 'correct' hand -arm -torso -everything positioning, but also knowing that your body has to move depending on what you're doing. Being locked into a particular position is bad for you - your joints were meant to move, and the ones meant to move in different directions need to move in different directions. Think about that in terms of muscles - if you don't use it, it will atrophy. (Overuse is bad too.)
Make sure your typing/working surface is at the right height, make sure that your hands and forearms have room to move about as you work (not tensely hovering over homekeys), and remember that general muscle tension/stress will wear you down faster than any external repetitive strain.
I think this may explain to some extent why some of the people using M$nat keyboards can't re-adapt to standard keyboard layouts - those muscles and joints have been out of use. They're tired. One is not better than the other, IMHO - the people suggesting other activities (eg aikido - but be careful) have a great point. This isn't so much about repetitive strain, it's about repetitive strain.
[|]
I have to say that I love my current split keyboard. It is a Mouse Systems keyboard, that only cost me $20. The keys make a resonable amount of noise, and as an added benefit, there is a backspace and tab key in the middle of the keypad. They are flush with the board itself so it is difficult to accidentally hit them. Definatly the best keyboard I have ever used. Tom
I third the motion. I've had one for the last year and a half and although I still use a regular rectangle at the office, I much prefer the split. (Except when I'm only typing one-handed; then it's more of a pain in the ass... BECAUSE I'M DRINKING SOMETHING, YOU PERVERTS!! )
My girlfriend spent a summer as a typist and ended up getting/having tendonitis (or something) in both wrists after a couple of months; she switched to an ergonomic keyboard and things greatly improved.
Just my take on it.
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It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
Am I the only one who used E-S-D-F rather than W-A-S-D? I find it gives access to more keys than WASD and maps more intuitively than ASDF...
Anyway, to stay marginally on topic, I find the twist to the keys on the ergo keyboards really do help in DMs.
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It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
I have been using one of these for a couple weeks now, and I definitely like the layout more than a standard keyboard. (Black is not available anymore.) I actually would prefer roughly the same key feel with no noise, but it isn't much worse than old IBM keyboards. The right space bar sticks occasionally which may end up being a problem. I may try out the Kinesis too which I first thought was too radical, but I'm adjusting to this one much faster than I thought I would, so perhaps the Kinesis wouldn't take that long either.
If you can find one, the best split keyboard is the Omnikey Evolution. It has the split keyboard design, but also has the high quality clicky keys from the IBM keyboards and other Omnikey keyboards. I have noticed a huge improvement in my speed, accuracy, and comfort ever since I got mine.
My one big gripe is that they put the `6' key on the left side instead of the right. If you touch type, then you know that God meant for the `6' key to be typed with the right index finger.
While this is less important, I am also fairly sure that God wanted the Enter key to be a horizontal bar with a large `\' key above it, and the Control key to the immediate left of the `A' key.
PS. If anyone knows how to program macros on it, I have been trying to figure it out.
pornking
I've had RSI for almost a year now, and have tried various keyboards/mice. I do have to agree that the MS keyboard is nice. Except for the feet. According to my doctor and physical therapist, the keyboard should optimally have a 10 - 15 degree _negative_ tilt. So the little feet should be on the side of the keyboard closest to you. Yet every keyboard I've seen thus far has them on the opposite side.
A good mouse to try is the Kensington Expert Mouse. It's a little more expensive (about $100), but it's helped a LOT. It's a large trackball, about 2 inches in diameter, and you can either use your fingers to move it, or your palm. It has 4 buttons, which can be programmed for various things - although only under Windows. I contacted Kensington regarding this, and was told that they have no plans of releasing a Linux driver. It should function as a regular mouse under Linux, but you can't use the nifty functions.
DO NOT use the Logitech TrackMan mouse! Yes, it's great if you have carpal - but it puts all the strain from any motion directly onto your tendons - which can be worse. My employer gave me a Logitech mouse when I mentioned wrist pain, and it immediately got MUCH worse - to the point, after about 2 - 3 weeks of using the Logitech, that I was unable to hold a fork. These things are EVIL!
What we really need is good voice-recognition software....
reverend lola
the titanium sheep
provider of steel wool
How are you supposed to play Nethack then? I suppose if you are concerned about RSI then Nethack is out of the question... ;-)
Burris
I use a Kinesis split keyboard at work & at home. It hardly took me any time to get used to the new layout, and it's been a major help with wrist pain.
www.kinesis-ergo.com
Yes but can you play Quake with it?
"I'm convinced my Kinesis keyboard has saved my career from RSI induced disability... it's so good I shelled out the $300 to buy one for home. OK, so it's a wierd layout that most folks can't deal with at first... but the hand strain you save is well worth the upfront training costs associated with the switchover."
I bought a Cherry split keyboard three years ago, when my RSI first hit. (The Cherry has the same layout as the Kinesis Maxim Adjustable, but doesn't seem to be available any more.) Since then, I believe my wrists have actually healed to some degree. I am *very* happy with it. (To be fair, I must mention that I started using a Cirque touchpad instead of a mouse at the same time.)
I disagree about the keyboard layout being difficult to get used to. (Perhaps that's true for folks who don't touch type.) The only two differences in layout are the split down the middle, and the insert/delete/home key group rearrangement. In the case of the latter, I think the rearrangement is very reasonable, and easy enough to adjust to.
KinesisSafe Computing
You're right! I just got one a few weeks ago, they are $75 and sold as the "Enhanced Keyboard," or KB-454. That and a Kensington Epert Mouse trackball make for the perfect interface. As far as technique goes, I type with the keyboard at the very edge of my desk, no wristrest, like playing a piano. That seems to help.
chris@xanadu:~$ whatis /.
/.: nothing appropriate.
I have the Interfaces Chair & Keyboard System at home and at work. I can now type / code for 14 hours straight without pain.
Unfortunately, I don't like the company (Interfaces by Cramer) and I see a lot of room for improvement in the keyboards.
I had a lot of trouble with the customer service taking a long time and screwing up. For example, I use a PS/2 type keyboard and mouse, so IbC sent me a crappy converter. My mouse was totally flaky, so I called tech support and they told me it was the converter. They said the converter they sent me supposed to be used and then sent me a good one. It was very odd.
The keyboards are way too big - sometimes I want to get close to my desk to eat a sandwich or read over some papers, but the keyboard bangs against the desk... Also in regards to size - I would prefer to get rid of the keypad. The keypad adds a lot of size to the keyboards. Lastly, the left keyboard (in my right-handed systems) is built to swivel. The swivel is a nice idea for flat boarders, but since mine is vertical it is a big pain in the butt.
I have determined that the best way to use this keyboard is with each half of the keyboard turned vertical. Numbers are way harder, so I had some password troubles initially. In general, with the keys turned vertical, I feel more like the keyboard is my interface to the computer rather than a hurdle.
I hope this doesn't sound like a flame, but I strongly suggest that anyone who hasn't been formally trained in typing get lessons before trying anything else. It's a lot like programming; you can teach yourself a lot, but when you really want to know how the pros do it, it's best to go to the pros for help. Clerical and secretarial workers have been typing for over 100 years, and as a group they've gathered a lot of experience about the right way to type, and I highly recommend tapping that knowledge. You'll probably come out typing faster, and you'll almost certainly come out with better typing habits for preventing RSI. I took a typing class in JHS, and I've probably used the skills I picked up there more than anything else in my primary education.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I'll be really interested in what everyone has to say about the different keyboards because that will be the next chunk of equipment that I plan on changing. But for starters I changed my mouse to a Logitech mouseball one. It was a pain in the arse to get used to but now I after working with it for a while I wonder how I ever got along without it before.
Anyways, have to go because my wrists are starting to hurt. 2 posts is about all I can take on that old standard keyboard. Ouch.
i've been using a trust splitkey keyboard for about 2 years now i guess, and i must say it sure improves the longevity of typing sessions, i don't have pain in my hands anymore after typing for a few hours, and it since i've been using it, i actually type quite a bit faster than i did before. the only problem is that under windows, when i go in and out of a dos prompt, occasionally it just activates that pesky little "ms" button it has (which is used for shortcuts like: ms+e = explorer) it hasn't failed me yet, and i'm sure that if it'll ever breakdown, it's because of the huge amount of cola, beer, chips, and other food that is bound to reside between the vast spaces between my keys. ofcourse, i could just clean it. "shell to dos, come in dos, do you copy?"
The keyboard isn't the answer, work habits are.
Speak to your doctor, or someone in the know, and they will help you change your work habits to more conducive ones. As mentioned above, short frequent breaks are very important, not just for your wrists, but your eyes as well.
Sakhmet.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Ban the Nukes! Save the Whales! Screw it. Nuke the Whales!
This URL is probably referencing the same material you saw on TV. There is also a picture of their new ergonomic keyboard. Enjoy
I've been using ergo keyboards for a couple years, and I particularly like the one that came with my Dell system at work. It's Dell's own brand, and I like the key action's feel more than the Microsoft one.
Overall, I have become very comfortable with my ergos and I think it has improved my touch-typing ability. I am less tempted to "cross-over" type when the keys are split and angled, so I have learned to be more orthodox in my typing.
I also like the front edge elevation and extra large wrist rest on most ergos. The key surface is actually slightly tilted down from front to back, giving a very comfortable hand position.
Other non-ergo people wonder how I can type on this thing, but it's all a matter of what you're used to, and now that I've adjusted I don't want to go back to the old days!
I've got two - one at home and one at work. I was wearing wrist braces and doing the "type for 10 minutes, rest for 5" before i bought the kinesis. It took me 2-3 weeks to get used to 'em, but they're great. I can type all day on them with no wrist pain, and I think that I can type faster what with being able to use my thumbs for more than just the spacebar. Definitely worth the investment. Plus, their tech support guys are terrific... were happy to take back the keyboard when it started malfunctioning.
Hi. I'm a card-carrying, copper-bracelet-wearing, downright SUFFERER of carpal tunnel and tendonitis (yeah, both). According to the many docs and specialists I've seen, my problems didn't come from typing--though I've been typing most of my life. They said my piano-playing, handwriting, and my stint as a mechanic were probably more at fault than my typing.
Actually, on the computer side, my mouse has been blamed far more than my keyboard. Ergonomic keyboards, like the splits with wrist-rests and whatnot, help ease the pain and let me type longer. But the defining factor is a TRACKBALL. MUST have a good trackball. A regular mouse will tear your sh*t up in no time, especially if you use it more than about half an hour a day (as I'm sure most of us do).
So take it from me--don't end up like me!!--even if you can't afford a $60 ergonomic keyboard (like me), spring for a trackball.
THAT WHICH DOES NOT KILL ME POSTPONES THE INEVITABLE.
Good article . There's a quote about Kinesis near the end: [T]he Kinesis Contoured Ergonomic Keyboard, separates the keys in two concave banks and places the heavily used Backspace, Delete, Enter and Space keys near the thumb. Dr. Robert Markison, a San Francisco hand surgeon who specializes in R.S.I., has pointed out that such kinds of configurations place unnatural stress on the thumb, making it vulnerable to arthritis and other injuries.
Yep, the keyboard does help with deathmatching. Although it depends on what keys you use. If you use the cursor keys your hand will still be bent, unless you completely move and rotate the keyboard. However if you use the W-A-S-D combination then the keyboard is bent in a nice confortable position.
Here is a review I wrote about the Kinesis Maxim. The short summary is that I was not thrilled about its construction or layout. And I typed slower on it.
I guess I was afraid to take the week or two to learn the Kinesis Ergo, so I opted for the more normal-looking Kinesis Maxim.
Well, I have now ditched the Maxim in favor of a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro. Undeniably the best product Microsoft ever made.
Seriously.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
acer future.. as someone who types the way it's recommended (using all 8/10? fingers for example, or most of them on the "proper" keys) I've found it feels REAL nice. Your wrists sit at the same level as the keys, so you feel like you're practically not sitting at a keyboard at all. Also, though some like the mouse, I HATE the mouse (I hate moving my hands any more than necessary when typing - I never use the keypad but the number keys above the letters for instance) and you can get a Future board with a touch pad right in the center (it's a split board). (Alas, I don't have that version of the keyboard, reason #98 why I suck.) One thing that may or may not be ultra-weird is that the arrow keys are placed around the touchpad. I find that requires a little getting used to.
I've used normal keyboards all my life and have had no problems. On the other hand, those "natural" keyboards feel anything but natural.
"Control the media, control the mind."-Cabal
First off, the major factor in getting a comfortable keyboard is getting a comfortable position. Maybe comfortable isn't the right word; ergonomically correct. When you're in a good position, your chance of developing something like carpal tunnel is substantially lowered.
Anyhow, a while back, perhaps a month ago, I saw a report on "@discovery.ca" (show on Canadian Discovery Channel thing) about someone who had done a lot of research into ergonomics and keyboard design.
He pointed out that the natural position for hands to rest in is a more vertical than horizontal position. The MS-type ergo keyboards are actually worse for you, since they force your elbows way out unnaturally.
The keyboard he had designed was split in two, each half seperate from the other and vertical, keys facing outwards. Everyone he and his staff tested it on said they loved it, it felt great.
It looks like the ergo keyboard/chair setup that CmdrTaco had is more or less this. I'm not sure if it goes fully vertically, but it looks close enough to make a difference.
I say stay with what you've got, Cmdr. As far as ergos go, it looks damn good.
Ian
Ian
Inventor of the WeaselBot 5000
From what I have read, the Maltron keyboards look to be excellent. They have a great layout and are specially prescribed to people with wrist troubles. They do away with the horrible qwerty layout and have one that is actually built for the fastest typing possible instead of qwerty, which was built to hinder typing speeds. I saw a speech by one of the manufacturers of Maltron keyboards and they said they are close to getting Maltron keyboards down to a reasonable price. I believe they are still around $500 right now. Check em out at http://www.maltron.com. Find the link to the United States manufacturers to find the prices.
Yep I just started using the MS natural keyboard, and it took a little while to get used to but now it's great. I'm a pretty big guy and having my hands at a more natural position is great. Not only am I not that worried about that carpal tunnel crap, my shoulders don't hurt that much at the end of the day either now.
Though if I was going to buy one for home I would get the new one with the extra USB ports and they fix the only thing that I hate about my current keyboard, the damn re-arrangement of the arrow keys and the home, end, del... keys. That took the longest to get used to.
Do the split ergonomic keyboards help with the soreness associated with DeathMatching?
:)
Seriously.
Nope, getting fragged still hurts...
I don't know about you but having a split keyboard for playing Quake X would not make any difference as I use the mouse and the keypad.
Although a slimline keypad would be nice
--- Can i borrow your Clue-Stick(tm)? I need to go beat a few people with it...
I have tried various types of keyboards, but I keep coming back to the ole 104 key. Personally, I don't like the feel of the so-called ergonomic keyboards. But, that may be due to the fact that have what most people would call bad typing bits. I have found that I type better and have fewer problems if I type MY way as opposed to the way the "experts" says I should. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
This may be off topic but how often does ergonomics come up? I should shout this but I have no karma. 11% of the people on this planet are left handed. We might all be brain damaged (see the book: "the left handed syndrome") but we still buy computers and yes, peripherals. I firmly believe the only reason Logitech has any market share at all is because MICROSOFT DOES NOT MAKE LEFT HANDED MICE. I would love to own an IntelliEye 5 button mouse but I can't do a damn thing with my right hand. I am willing to say I'd pay 100 bucks for a good left handed mouse. Windows supports reversing your buttons for left handed use but all the Microsoft mice are ergonomically optimized for right handed people to the point that lefties can't use them. So I am stuck with the crappy compromise: the symmetrical mice from Logitech. And don't even ask about trackballs. There is not a single trackball at all for lefties. Joysticks? Forget it. Lefty Keypad? forget it. But I could live without all that If I could just get a mouse to fit my LEFT HAND.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
I would go completely nuts if I coudn't use a computer for a week. I just switch off chairs every couple of hours- . First, I use one of those ergonomic kneeling chair thingies, with the keyboard on a tray, (this is best for deathmatching, or really intense codeing) but it's just not a real relaxing pose. As I get more tired, I switch to my hippy rope chair (its this funkey chair with a wooden frame, and the chair part is made out of rope, kinda like a tight hammoc) and put the keyboard on my lap. I've never had much trouble with my wrists, so long as I brake every 10 hours or so. and I've been typeing pretty much non-stop for the last 5 years or so, but then, I'm 19, so mayby it's just an age thing.
Finally, performing wrist strengthening exercises can help tremendously (a previous poster suggested Aikido).
I find vigorous mastubatiom, performed as often as possible, is also quite helpful. About three months ago I cut back on manual masturbation after I cut a hole in my desk, which I would line with a high-grade lubricant and "hump", so I could use both hands to scroll through porn sites. After two weeks of this, not only did I have splinters in the shaft of my penis ("wood in the woody"), but I was afflicted with a crippling pain in my hands and fingers.
Needless to say, I returned to my previous masturbatory habits, and the problem has completely disappeared. I make sure to masturbate at least fifteen minutes for every hour I spend coding, (or was it the other way around?).
This brings up another problem: jizz in the keyboard. Having to hit a key multiple times because it "sticks", due to semen spilled into the keyboard, can add millions of keystrokes to your workload per year, if you "stroke" and blow your work-"load" as much as I do. I am currently designing a "splash guard" desk attatchment, similar to the "sneeze guards" employed at salad bars, to keep my mayo off the counter.
Vote Gore 2000! He loves to wack it!
I am the Lord.
I am the Lord.
God Hates Moderators.
Can you imagine using "three finger technique" in this new layout, without modifying your hand!
While I do admit that the layout look sort of fruity, I don't think it would affect my fragging technique much. Whether using the arrow keys or the WASD keys, my technique is the same: middle finger on "up", index finger on "right", ring finger on "left", and - this is where it varies from some people's - thumb on "down". I've gotten some weird looks because of how the thumb has to go under the index finger to do this, but I find it works best. I use my pinky to hit accessory keys, like tab for showing scores, shift for walking (as opposed to running), and control for crouch, and tilde for console. I've used this with Quake 2, Half-Life, and Q3A.
Obviously the right hand is on the mouse. I use an Intellimouse, and the wheel is mapped to switch weapons.
My layout allows my to have faster reactions (IMHO) because my three fingers and thumb never leave those movement keys (except when I hit the spacebar with my thumb to jump).
This having been said... and I know the Vi people will love this... I think that a "four in a row" layout is much more comfortable. I've been thinking of trying to deathmatch with ASDF, analogous to Vi's HJKL.
I am the Lord.
I am the Lord.
God Hates Moderators.
Man, know what pisses me off? The lack of left-handed penises. Yeah, I know that none of you knew that Jesus was left handed, but I am, dammit, and it's a damn shame that I can't masturbate as well as everyone else because of My horrible luck. Heck, if My penis curved to the right than maybe I could fake it, but I don't even get that! Fuck!
And ya know what the kicker is? I probably could've convinced Dad to give Me a lefty penis back when I came returned to life. Hell, I died! I was born again! Why shouldn't I get a new penis? But I was too busy thinking of philosophical things to say to be thinking about My penis. Fuck, the one time two thousand years that I'm NOT thinking about My penis, and I miss My chance! Fuck!
Oh well. I'll go turn some water into wine and get piss drunk.
I am the Lord.
I am the Lord.
God Hates Moderators.
From what I hear, although ergonomic keyboards may help you in some ways they may encouraged a more slouched sitting posture which can be bad for you back. It seems to me that the best thing to do is to keep your wrists straight on a regular keyboard and you back in a good position when your on an ergonomic keyboard. In the end what i think really counts isn't the keyboard it's making sure your posture is correct. But don't take my word for it. I'd make sure with your doctor that your doing everything right.
-Mr.Blue
I've been using the Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro for about half a year now. It's a keyboard & mouse combo, both of which are wireless (by radio, so there's no need to aim at that pesky IR receiver).
The keyboard's basically similar to the Microsoft Natural, but has a number of extra keys which can be used for various things (currently only in Windows, though I suppose one could manage some xmodmap trickery in X11 too). Its feel is quite light and not too noisy, bit similar to those better Mac keyboards. There's a detachable palm rest for those who use 'em.
The mouse is quite similar to the normal Logitech 4-button wheel mouse, and may not be suitable for those of us equipped with smaller hands. It's one of those mice that need to be held with the entire hand, not just fingers so many people probably hate it.
I was somewhat doubtful when I began using the keyboard/mouse combo, especially because they had changed the arrangement of the Ins/Del/etc key block (the arrow keys are however laid out as usual) but I got used to it pretty quickly. You don't know how much you hate the cords between the computer and the keyboard or mouse until you've used cordless ones for a while. Sincerely recommended, more so since it's not too expensive for a cordless setup.
The URL for its homepage is http://www.logitech.com/ cf/products/productoverview.cfm/15
I started using the Kinesis in December, and I'm never going back.
But the important things are to make sure that your posture is good, and to change your behavior... only type for short periods of time, and then take a break.
switching to left hand mousing has also helped me a lot.
It might be great if it's not Microsoft, but some of those cheap split keyboards are not designed right, just a normal keyboard that is slightly curved horizontally. Logitech is great though, if only there Desktop Pro was available anywhere.
(-% TwistedMind %-)
Used to have severe tendonitis from using the Sun keyboards. Am right handed - switched to LH mousing and that helped a bit. Now am on PCs and use the following keyboard: - Acer Futura Locally (Sillycon Valley), Fry's got rid of some about a year ago for $50 or so. Also like the MS keyboards, but don't like the "extended" keyset on the RHS. I.e. my wrist hurts when I have to overextend it for a long period of time. The Futura has a seperate (unpluggable/movable) extended keypad. Keys are also quite soft and very durable. Couldn't find it on Acer's site - hope they are still making it... Hope that helps.
Thats right, I said that I, an acknolwged full blown geek spent over one week without using a computer, and further I do this on atwice yearly basis!
Accually it isn't bad. Kinda interesting to see how primitive people manage to survive. It didn't kill me, and in fact was fun in a way.
Conquering Carpal Tunnel Syndrom, by Sharon J. Butler, is full of good stretching exercises that helped me a lot. It's geared towards healing the friction rather than strengthening the hands. Good stuff. BTW, I'm not saying to buy it from amazon -- that's just the first link that came up when I searched for it.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
From the people I've talked to about ergonomic keyboards, Kinesis always seems to come up as the keyboard to get. They're quite expensive, but hopefully you've got a company to buy it for you. They make them with QWERTY layout, Dvorak, and even dual-legend switchable QWERTY/Dvorak layouts. I haven't tried them yet, but they do offer a 30- or 60-day money-back guarantee if I recall correctly. I'm sure a Kinesis owner will chime in on this thread and let us all know how great they are.
I converted to the MS keyboard sometime ago and found it really helps (I don't like the MS Elite one though as they did stupid things with cursor and navigation keys).
Coupled with a really good keyboard try, I've been very comfortable. I can't remember what tray we had at my last job, but right now I'm looking at something from 3M.
My ideal setup involves getting the keyboard almost in my lap with negative tilt (front higher than the back). I sit back quite comfortably in my chair (a good monitor really helps here) with my hands basically resting in my lap. My sore elbows and wrists improved at my last job with this set up. I also had less tension in my shoulders, etc.
One of the problems I've had, is that alot of keyboards are aimed more at typing english than coding. i.e. I just got a MS Internet keyboard at work, and I had to give it up after a week (to a rather pleased co-worker) as my hands were in serious physical pain. The main problem is is that I use shift/alt/ctrl *alot* (yes, I code in Emacs), and my little/ring fingers were just in pain from bending to hit them. The placement of those on most ergo keyboards is *horrible* from an Emacs standpoint. I tried remapping ctrl to shift, and shift to caps-lock (and nuking caps-lock), but that didn't help much.
I'm thinking of going to an old-skool IBM buck-spring keyboard, just because they're big, loud and I've never really had an issue with them. I think I would be lynched by my cubicle neighbours if that happened, though. Ah, well.
My question, then - are there any heavy emacs users out there who have found a comfortable keyboard?
A friend of mine got the Kinesis Ergo Keyboard and loves it. www.kinesis-ergo.com. It does slow you down at first, and it will make it harder to type on a regular keyboard, but it is a real wrist-saver. It comes with QWERY layout but is designed to be able to switch to DVORAK and other layouts easily.
I've been using one of these at work now for a little less than two years and I LOVE THIS KEYBOARD!
I'm convinced my Kinesis keyboard has saved my career from RSI induced disability... it's so good I shelled out the $300 to buy one for home. OK, so it's a wierd layout that most folks can't deal with at first... but the hand strain you save is well worth the upfront training costs associated with the switchover.
Anyone who is experiencing hand pain associated with heavy keyboard use should try this unit out. I strongly recommend this keyboard! And no, I'm not assiciated with Kinesis in any way, nor do I own their stock -- just a satisfied customer.
Your implication is arrogant and unscientific. "Because I don't have RSI means that it probably doesn't exist". Jeez!
The main goal of these ergonomic keyboards is to keep the wrists straight, and to keep the user from having to move their arms from side to side. They are a tremendous help if you need them, and can make extended programming sessions considerably more bearable for those that don't "need" them.
A close friend recently developed permanent nerve damage in his right shoulder. This was likely caused by both the mouse and the keyboard, combined with a less than ergonomic work environment. His doctors have encouraged him to avoid further typing to prevent aggravating the injury. For how long, you might ask. For the rest of his life. Nerves don't tend to heal very quickly, if at all.
Typewriters tended to cause less RSI because most typists, before the advent of the keyboard, did not rest their wrists during typing. Mousing is particularly bad. Those scroll wheels on modern mice are about as bad as they come, as far as ergonomics are concerned.
Reapeated stress injuries can be caused by a number of factors. In general, you don't want to have your wrists bent. You don't want to have a downward pushing action or forwards-to-backwards action with your fingertips (like with mousing and using a scroll wheel).
Of course, a number of other things can be done to help prevent RSI. A proper sitting position is important (don't bend your knees more than 90 degrees, plant your feet flat on the floor or on a foot stand, lean slightly forward with your back). A proper height for your keyboard and mouse is important (eye level should be 1/3 down from the top of the screen, keyboard should be about 3 inches lower than most people think). Finally, performing wrist strengthening exercises can help tremendously (a previous poster suggested Aikido).
RSI is real. You may not be succeptible, as you may have a more ergonomic environment, or you may be in better physical shape (although my friend is in excellent physical condition).
--Be human.
For the rest, all I can say is: do what your mommy told to you: go out a little more, have some excercise. Slashdot isn't everything.
Han-Wen Nienhuys -- LilyPond
Datadesk technologies makes a very nice alternative to the MS Natural keyboard. It's called the SmartBoard. I bought a MS Natural the day they came out and used it for years. But I decided to try the SmartBoard and liked it so much I bought a second one and sold both my MS Naturals. If you like the MS Natural, then give this a try. It's better.
You can buy them at several places (distributors listed at the web site), but Microwarehouse is selling them for $80 USD.
The good:
The bad:
You should check the website for full details, including photos. Having used these keyboards for the over 1.5 years I can confidently say these keyboards are a superior replacement for MS Natural keyboards. Highly recommended.
_________________________________________________
I have enjoyed mine since I got it for Xmas. Its got a decent feel, and its _small_. I move my fingers less to get the same amount of text onto the screen than with a traditional keyboard. Plus, no windows key, no caps lock, control key is in the right place, and most chords (alt-whatever, Fn-whatever) are no problem.
I have heard some people who say that they didn't help, or in fact caused more problems. I think the trick with the HH is to adjust it right: just plopping it down doesn't help much. Ya gotta play attention to all the stuff about positioning, and sadly, this means you'll prolly have to "hack" up a solution to get the height of the thing correct (the little feet aren't of much use).
I love mine, and I am buying a few more, so I can use them with every machine.
(I don't work for them, BTW, I'm just one of those annoying satisfied customers)
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
While I'm not denigrating the value of a good ergonomic keyboard, for me, at least, the answer lies in the fact that the malady is called REPETITIVE strain injury.
I've been using a standard keyboard (including manual typewriters in the dim and distant past) on a daily basis (5-14 hours a day) for about 24 years, and have no stress injuries at all.
I attribute this to the variation in wrist motions that I get from having other activities for my wrists (and the rest of me). I engage in regular physical exercise, including a variety of martial arts weapons, most of which include a large variety of wrist motions and exercises, and I also play the piano (not as well as I would like, but regularly). I fully believe that this variation in activity has done much more for my lack of wrist injury than any ergonomic keyboard could do in and of itself.
Nunc Tutus Exitus Computarus.
Keep your keyboard as low as you can; tilt it back a little bit if you can, so your wrists are straight. Curl your fingers like a pianist is trained to do. Keep your mousepad as close to your body as you can. Do NOT reach past the keyboard to grab the mouse.
I used to have terrible RSI problems until my employer wized up and installed ergonomic office furniture for anyone who asked for it. Not funky chairs and articulated desks. Just a keyboard tray that fits under the desk surface and a proper chair with lumbar support.
The keyboard tray is wonderful. It's wide enough for me to keep my mousepad there, too. Once I moved the keyboard and mousepad to hover an inch or so above my lap, my wrists steadily improved to the point where I only hurt when I touch-type all day long.
I can see the fnords!
For Windows, I recommend the Logitech Mouseman + (4 button, wheel) and a package called Pop-Mouse. It allows you to call functions / menus / applications / keystrokes using mouse gestures like "clockwise in a circle" or "back and forth, horizontal". There's also a package called Jerboa which is much more flexible and free, but it hates X-mouse. I rarely use keyboard unless I'm actually typing a passage of text (or a password), thus when voice recognition for dictation is a bit more reliable with an Australian/English accent I'm ready to pack up the keyboard and buy something like the Cassiopeia Fiva tablet as a primary PC.
IF your wrists are still sore, try doing some light weight training to strengthen them. I have noticed a tremendous improvement even from light training. Plus I feel better about the hours in front of the computer.
I believe he uses one of the Dragonsys products. Email me if you want me to get more details from him.
Thank you for not thinking.
I practice on and off, but simply doing the stretching excercises from class once or twice a day helps immensely. IMHO, any geek who is having the beginnings of wrist problems should find an advanced student to show them the simple stretches from class.
Thank you for not thinking.
send flames > /dev/null
Only 'flamers' flame!
If you buy a keyboard where your arms don't move around, you're asking for trouble. A split keyboard is ok but this one mounted on a chair could harm your arms more than help them.
I had bad arm pain during a period of two years. It came and went before the last time I suffered for more than half a year. After visiting many doctors, I finally got some really good advice that helped me solve the problem. Since then I haven't had any problems whatsoever.
First of all, don't rest your hands in front of the keyboard when you type. This kills your wrists as all the finger movement is applied at the exactly same spot inside your wrist. Also blood circulation is not good enough as your arms don't move. So keep your hands in the air and move them around while you type. Feel free to rest your arms on the support between typing, though.
Also do work out. Lift heavy weights or play some ball game. Shot put throwing is great as it's both heavy and explosive. Exercise strenghtens your muscles and gives them something heavier to do as typing is not heavy enough to keep you muscles in shape.
Quite frankly, I'd throw most ergonomic keyboards away. As there's not that much research done about typing injuries, many of them end up causing trouble.
The usual disclaimer. Do consult a doctor...
Plusses: Awesome keyboard.
:)
Minuses: Costs money.
That said, I'm never switching back. If you want USB, they sell a USBPS/2 adapter, which works fine on my box. Mac versions are available. I've had very little trouble, and what trouble I've had, they've been very good about fixing.
I recommend getting the programmable model; it really is that much better.
I've been using these for a few years now, and I have had much better results with them than I ever had with other keyboards. No failures from old age per se; the one that did start acting up was diagnosed as a hardware problem, and Kinesis shipped me replacement circuit boards and new ROMs.
Great keyboards. I bought mine through DMG ergonomics; I think it was 'www.dmb-ergonomics.com'. 10% off list price.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Don't know how much mobile work you do, but you might want to try out Handykey's Twiddler...
Eventually, they're supposed to be releasing their "Twiddler 2", which should have a proper AT/PS-2 interface. The Twiddler only uses the keyboard port as a power source; the serial interface is what carries actual data.
--The more you know, the less you know.
These have been around for years in Britain. I remember seeing them in the Osborne "Home Computer Course" magazine. I've never used one myself, but they look cool, anyway. :-) www.maltron.co.uk
Choice of masters is not freedom.
I'll lose some karma points for this but I agree with you. After spending the last couple of years (10-12 hours a day) firmly planted in front of a monitor my wrists and forearms would begin to ache. I looked at a couple of ergonomic keyboards to help relieve the strain and found that the M$ keyboard relieved the strain and was the easiest to re-train my hands to use. Using it in conjuction with a Logitech Trackman Marble FX has completely fixed the problem for now.
I have a trackman marblefx for my mouse, and I also use a drawing tablet under photoshop. Drawing tablets aren't good for doing menu things, as they have a tendency to slide the cursor. The trackball is pretty accurate for selections though. You can do a straight across line, and clicking (or letting go of the button) does not move the cursor.
Lowmag.net
I've gone through a lot of pain a few years ago, I had shooting pains down my arms, sore wrists, sore neck and more. The solution is only partially to get better ergonomics, the real solution is to build up your body more with something like yoga. Yoga is great because you don't have to be in great shape to do it, and there are lots and lots of different exercises to get into all the different parts of your body that might be causing problems. Your arms might be hurting because of something in your back, or your neck, or any number of places. Our body is totally interconnected, just like a program, if you have a bug in one part, it can show up in a number of places, and you have to be a good debugger to find it. Likewise, look around, there are lots of different approaches to yoga, and to health in general. Take 15-30 minutes out of your programming day and debug your body! You wouldn't stand for bugs in your programs, don't stand for bugs in your body. With yoga, I'm both much more physically healthy, as well as much more mentally agile and aware. There are lots of web resources for yoga, but the best way is to find a nice yoga teacher who can show you things you might have overlooked in your own body. The best part, yoga classes are *full* of women, typically between 80-95% of the people in yoga classes are women! Toned, flexible and in touch with their bodies women. I met my current girlfriend in a yoga class, and I have never been happier. Try it out! You'll love it!
The problem that arises is inflamation of the nerve within your carpal tunnel. The surgical solution is to cut the carpal tunnel open such that the nerves can rub around without as much friction and pressure. This does not always help.
The most effective way to help prevent carpal tunnel is to build up the forearms. For example, taking a rope and tying it to a stick at one end and a weight (light) at another serves as a great tool for exercising the forearms. You twirl the stick with your hands on either side of the rope, such that the rope wraps around the stick in the middle, and the weight lifts off the ground. Then going in the reverse "twist" you put the weight back down to the ground. This strengthens the muscles around the carpal tunnel and makes the rubbing less prone to inflamation.
Other highly-wrist oriented exercies may help, but high-impact sports like squash and raquetball actually tend to irritate more than help (although they do help, but inflamation of the carpal tunnel nerve for any reason tends to leave it inflamed for a while). However, Judo (Budo, depending on where you hail from) is an excellent way to strengthen your wrists without high-impact (unlike contact martial arts, such as Ju Jutsu or Tae Kwon-Do) and is less tedious than a stick + rope + weight approach.
Carpal tunnel syndrome affects millions of people, the result of which is lost work and frustrated workers. Surgery is an option, but proper exercise can help prevent the problem in the first place.
Hope that helps.
I use Kinesis myself, and I have to say it has very positive effect on me. My wrist rarely go out before my mind does. I'm not 100% healed, I can still feel it in some stretching exercises, but it's definately better than standard/split keyboards like ms-ergo.
The downsides: if you have to use the mouse a lot, it's probably not that great... but I don't know what can be done about that. I would like to see kinesis try to integrate a thinkpad-like mouse onto one of these things. When possible you should use the keyboard to scroll, not the mouse.
It takes a few days to get really comfortable with a Kinesis. Once you learn, pick up a keyboard switch box for your other computers because these things are not super cheap and you won't be able to type on the other keyboards very well anymore. I bring my keyboard on trips with me when I know I'm going to be coding at the other end. Luckily it's a pretty compact keyboard.
I found the best solution for people who have to use Linux and NT is to run a NT-based X server (I like X-deep32) and export your linux display to it. This saves a lot of reaching for the switch box, and you can cut and paste between the two. (Assuming VMWare doesn't cut it).
-- Virtual Windows Project
A decent site, with links to most of the major types of Ergonomic keyboards. I haven't had the need to use their product personally, but I guess I can start. Preventative medicine and all that. You can check them out at Ergosci.com
--sugarman--
Are you serious? A week away from the computer?
That's odd... after I started using my trackball (Logitech Trackman Marble - no little wheel), I began Whomping-Ass-Dot-Com (sorry) in Quake. There's about a week or two or really painful frags as you get up to speed, but the control and speed that you get is great. I can turn corners faster and more accurately than before, and it makes a lot of things easier. There is that learning curve though. I don't use photoshop or similar programs a lot, but for general navigation, it really helps (plus my wrist doesn't get tired any more).
Other people I know have similarly gotten better at twitch games after switching to a trackball, but it's not an overnight thing.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
I use a Microsoft Natural at work, and it is vastly inferior to the Adesso. I think because the Adesso has a flat design, while the MS one rises in the middle. *shrugs*
On another note, I've found that the big split keyboards don't do a lick of good for comfort unless I balance them in my lap--the people in my office think it's odd, for whatever reason.
Anyone try out the BAT keyboard? It looks really interesting -- keep one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse, not moving back and forth. Mounts readily on a chair arm, that kind of thing.
I'm still trying to get the IT bunch here to get one for eval. Comments really appreciated.
BTW: I've been using Infogrip's mice for quite a while and love 'em -- reliable, feel good in an odd-sized hand.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I've been using a MS natural keyboard (not the elite) for a few years now and haven't had any problems with it. I'd recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to pay over $100 for an ergo keyboard.
Now if only I could get a decent keyboard for work life would be great.
-f00l
Rob, I know you do a lot of perl stuff; wouldn't it be great if they created a keyboard for perl hackers? The punctuation and symbol characters would be the default and you would have to use shift keys in order to type letters, rather than the other way 'round!
:-) (spark, crunch, flatworm, half-mesh, etc.)
This makes sense because the only time you use letters is when you're calling a function, naming a function, or commenting your code. And who comments perl code anyway? And you really don't need user-def functions either. Most of the things that require calling functions in other languages are done with arcane operators in perl.
By the way guys, voice recognition is out unless you never do anything but word processing and email. Can you imagine trying to code perl with voice recognition? Unless perhaps you memorized and were able to use all the INTERCAL names for the characters
A lot of it has to do with the environment and stress (this may sound like utter BS, but it's fairly truthful in my experience) in which you work. I use the same ergo keyboard at work and at home, and while I can hack at a program for hours on end at home, I used to have sore wrists at the end of the day at work. Also the arrangement of the rest of your area is important, I rearranged a while back after the sore wrists started and now can do 10 hour stretches without problems, although I still can go longer at home.
Most damage in keyboarding comes from people holding their wrists bent outwards and upwards, and that's where the split keyboards help alot. (I can't stand the independent split, though, since I code and need to type with one hand from time to time while looking through hardcopy stuff, so I have a set-split.)
For those considering a change but not wanting to fork out big cash, the MS Natural Keyboard (not the Elite) is a lot easier on your wrists compared to a normal 104 or 105, and you can pick those up pretty cheap. It might take a few days to get used to it, but you'll feel cramped going back afterwards =) And yes, I use a highly unorthodox keying method. (At least for me, they also don't interfere with typing speed, as I type over 100wpm. I don't use the MSNK, but a different one with a different split line.)
For me, adjustability is key, and a slight difference in position makes a lot of change in wrist comfort. That's why I've coveting the Aeron/split keyboard CmdrTaco is referring to. Together, they'll set you back more than a grand, but damn, I know those Aerons work for me. And as for the keyboard, well it reminds me of my old favorite.
The Apple Split Keyboard.
That one was a thing of beauty. Put it on a tray at the right height and it was heaven. You could adjust the angle til it was exactly right. Those damn Microsoft keyboards always seem to be just a smidgen off the right angle, just enough so they don't do it for me.
Of course, Apple doesn't make them anymore, and I've never seen an ergo keyboard advertised that was as elegantly simple. You didn't even need any real retraining, and it didn't ruin you for "normal" keyboards.
Ah well. More good tech Apple has consigned to the rubbish bin. Right next to my trusty Newton.
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Klactovedestene!
So I'm a 23 year old software developer, and I used to have major pain in my wrists and sometimes fingers (joint inflamation). I fully blame the problem on poor ergonomics. This is very very serious. If I am having this much trouble now, what will happen in 3-5 years? Will I have to stop typing? Stop coding? What would I do for a living?
The thing with ergonomics is that, even though you can now go out and by a nice curved keyboard (I'm a big fan of the microsoft natural), it is still designed for a mythical "average user". Your basic compUSA keyboard is not guaranteed to work for everyone.
I have adapted to my natural keyboard, so much that to use another keyboard causes me wrist pain within 5 minutes. This even occurs sometimes between home (the original big beast of a microsoft natural) and work (the slim elite version). I dread using my dad's laptop to respond to email when I visit.
I think that I'm going to have to shell out the $200-300 for one of the kinesis keyboards. The cost is easially justified if it works.
But what will I do if I adjust to that one also?
"You want to kiss the sky? Better learn how to kneel." - U2
Sig:
Barbeque is a noun. Not a verb.
Have you messed with Chord keyboards? How about the Bat Keyboard? I found some research here as well.
I switched to Dvorak a couple years ago, and it helped a lot. But I don't think it was Dvorak itself that made the difference, so much as it made me stop typing so much for the couple of weeks it took me to get back up to full speed.
The important thing here is to learn to work smarter, not harder. Are you spending a lot of time online just fucking around? If so, then maybe you need to consider that your future meals probably depend on your ability to type, and so maybe you should get your priorities straight.
Are you using your tools to their utmost? Have you learned all the shortcuts? Made new ones where possible (such as shell aliases, as another poster pointed out)? If not, today would be a good day to sit down and learn them (and give your hands a rest in the process).
Are you making unnecessary work for yourself? Are you writing and rewriting things because you didn't talk about them enough with coworkers before writing them the first time, or because you didn't spend an extra ten minutes considering the matter?
In other words: If you don't have to type it twice, don't. Ever. Your hands will thank you.
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Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
What software does he use? I've been looking at different packages but its hard to tell what's good and bad.
If you see a pattern of varied positions and patterns of use, that is exactly what I am driving at. It is the limited range of motions that are repeated so often which are believed to be the cause of carpal tunnel and related injuries. And the therapy that is recommended for the early stages, and to prevent it, is exercising the hands and wrists through a range of motions that are unrelated to typing and mouse-clicking. Your keyboard or pointing device may only be a part of the problem.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
I used a MS natural keyboard and liked it. Then I decided to go for something more radical and got a Kinesis Ergonomic keyboard (Essential, the lowest of the line).
I love it. It's pricey ($200+), but my hands feel great. It helps if you know how to touch type with this keyboard since the keys are in a concave shell. I got mine from www.dmb-ergonomics.com for 10% off list. The keypad is integral to the right hand keys, which you can activate using a button on the keyboard or a foot pedal (optional accessory). The foot pedals are nice if you have room. One acts as a shift key and the other one lets you temporarily access the keypad for number entry.
I've opened up the case and if you really want to, you could cut the board in half to use on the separate arms of a chair. It'll take some wiring to do it, but it looks feasible from a quick glance.
Does anyone have any experience with these? I think the idea is terrific, but of course implementation is everything. Can you reach anything even approaching the input rate of a regular keyboard?
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
IBM is the keyboard king. They are incredibly well made, the keys have exactly the right "click" feel, and the sloping is perfect. The only problem is that they are very expensive (last I checked a few years ago, about $150). But if you want quality that makes every other keyboard feel like utter crap, these are the keyboards. It does make a difference in your typing speed.
They spun off their keyboard division into Lexmark a few years ago; I don't know where they are making them now. I stole about 5 of them from one of my previous companies so I would always have a good supply.
As for these newfangled "ergonomic" keyboards, I'm not a believer. I think the key is to keep your wrists straight, regardless of the type of keyboard. I've never had wrist problems using a normal keyboard, but I think I got lucky by naturally holding my hands in the "angled" position that split keyboards use. I just angle them across the normal keyboard, rather than the "hands straight in" that typing manuals try and teach you to do.
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You can always have a look at VoiceGrip, a kind of plugin to help programming with voice. I never used it but I heard it's good. Maybe I'm biased, I worked there. Regards, Benoit Potvin
The M$ Natural keyboard is really comfortable for me. The only problem is switching between that and a standard keyboard since the placement of the hands is different. Just don't use MS Word also or you will go to /. hell.
While working on a final project for a class last semester I spent far too much time straight at the computer. Pain gradually started to build up in my wrists & forearms over christmas break, and when I returned to school I thought I'd have to make some drastic changes in my usage habits. Fortunately I found a site dealing with RSI (repetitive stress injuries), which suggested, among other actions, popping your wrist bones. What worked for me goes as follows:
1. Put your right hand out, palm down. 2. Grab your right hand with your left. 3. Gently rotate your right hand counterclockwise. You'll probably hear/feel a joint in your upper arm pop. 4. Repeat with your left wrist.
After a few weeks, I couldn't pop any joints using this method, and pain in my forearms was greatly reduced. Since then I've been stretching my wrist muscles regularly, and have been occasionally popping my wrist joints by interlocking my fingers & extending an arm, snapping the wrist down. I'm still not completely "cured" of all wrist troubles, but am not nearly as I was...
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
http://www.pfuca.com/products/hhk b/hhkbindex.html is where you can get them. They are quite simply the best keyboard on the planet, IMHO of course.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
The Goldtouch split keyboard is great. It is split around a ball joint and is totally adjustable. The keys have a nice feel, and my wrists have been fine since using it. The arangment of the keys is a little different, so that the mouse can be more within your comfort range. This takes some getting used to. I use it with NT and have never had any technical glitches. The Goldtouch mouse is great as well.
Switching to Dvorak made a much larger difference for me than any keyboard has. Given that it is optimized for typing in English, it is the logical choice. When temporarily using QWERTY it becomes painfully obvious to me that the standard layout is extremely suboptimal.
Given that every operating system is easily switched back and forth between QWERTY and Dvorak, there is little excuse not to make the switch. It isn't nearly as hard as learning qwerty the first time. The only way to switch is to go "Cold Turkey" (get some overlays for your current keyboard). You'll be very slow at first, but you'll rapidly get faster and you should back to your previous qwerty speed in two weeks.
I've been doing it since Oct '93 and am very happy. Like I said, it's hard to know just how awful qwerty is until you have used something else (i.e. masturbation seems like the greatest thing in the world until you have real sex). My hands do not trouble me anymore (despite typing just as much as I always have). The few friends that I have been able to convince to switch to Dvorak agree with me: it's far superior to qwerty!
Burris
One problem that people might attribute to typing is what I call "mouse finger." I have found that most mice (especially the Microsoft Mouse) give me lots of pain in my right hand. Lately I've been using a Logitech TrackMan Marble, which seems to help a lot.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
I suggest a change in typing style. Two shots of whiskey will help you loosen up your hands and reduce risk of injury (as well as help you ignore the pain should you actually injure yourself, not to mention get those creative juices flowing). Now beware, more than two shots is inadvisable. Risk of serious injury falls to nearly zero after two shots but soars to 99.99% after 7 or so shots. (you'd never believe how much damage a trayloading CDRom can do to your hands, and 21" monitor juggling can seem like a great idea at the time). Well thats my $0.02 (sadly they're the 2 cents that I owe)
I've found that every 5-6 months it becomes painful to type. At this point I need to take a week of vacation (Not less then a week, I've tried it) and let things heal. Come back to typing and I'm fine..
Those weeks of vacation are to do things that do not involve typing. Sometimes I go to a week long church retreat, other times I go hunting and fishing. Maybe just remodel the kitchen. Doesn't matter so long as I'm not using typing motions.
Between vacations I find wrist splints help - though what helps most is not using the mouse.
I talked to a guy that teaches UI design; one of the things he mentioned was that voice interfaces for extensive text entry actually just shift the physical problems - your wrists get better, but you start losing your voice from all the speaking you have to do. It's probably easier to recover from, though.
Regarding ViaVoice, I've been hacking on XVoice recently, since the maintainer is currently tied up on other things. I have it running well enough to use XVoice for working on XVoice. ;) So it can be used for coding. I'm hoping to release another patch this week, which allows complex commands like "go to line 234", "delete 5 lines", etc.
I'm finding two things important when working on code. First, it helps a *lot* to take advantage of scripting and completion capabilities of your editor, so you can say "copy this function", "move to the next function", "delete this switch block", or when entering variable names you only have to say the first couple letters & then use completion.
And second, when you need to send character commands (e.g. for spelling variable names, or sending commands you haven't mapped to phrases), it helps a *lot* to use a phonetic alphabet. ViaVoice (and people, for that matter) have trouble with "b" "p" "c" "t" "d", etc., all those "eeee" sounds are hard to distinguish. But if you map them to "alpha" "bravo" "charlie" "delta", etc., it works well, and as an added bonus you get to sound like an extra in Dr. Strangelove when you're writing code.
Pretty cool.
Anyone interested in XVoice can find info on freshmeat. I've posted some patches against the development version (0.7) on http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy/xvoice. More to come, soon.
A friend of mine got the Kinesis Ergo Keyboard and loves it. www.kinesis-ergo.com. It does slow you down at first, and it will make it harder to type on a regular keyboard, but it is a real wrist-saver. It comes with QWERY layout but is designed to be able to switch to DVORAK and other layouts easily.
For the lazy, the summary of the keyboard is that it has depressed bowls in which the keys and layed-out. This means your hands are in a much more natrual pose. Also, big keys like return and space are pressed with strong fingers like the index and the thumb. I strongly suggest at least checking out the webpage. Its a pricy keyboard, but it pays for itself in RSI surgary avoidance.
--Nick
Ergo Keyboards are tempting, but are not a magic bullet solution to RSI. The very statement above makes a strong statement: "I've been treating my body in a manner inconsistent with its design." This can be as simple as bad posture, typing technique, and/or insufficient breaks. It may also point towards a need for a more physically active lifestyle in addition to the above. (Kudos to the poster who recommended Aikido or some other physical activity -- sedentary life is the bane of the geek.)
I strongly suggest that anyone exhibiting symptoms of RSI, or who feels they may be at risk, read Repetitive Strain Injury: A Computer User's Guide by Emil Pascarelli, M.D. and Deborah Quilter. This book can help you identify many common bad habits related to extended keyboard use. This includes posture while at the computer, wrist position, taking breaks, relevant stretching and exercise, and more.
RSI needn't be localized to the wrists, even if it feels like it is. The entire upper body musculature (shoulders, neck, upper arms, lower arms, wrists, hands) is involved in providing support as you type. Double-crush syndrome is where nerves are pinched at multiple locations such as at the shoulders and at the elbow. Each individual nerve impingement is not enough to cause a problem, but the two in conjunction can impair hand/wrist function. The problem can often seem to be a "wrist problem" when it is actually more insidious than that.
To use myself as a case study, I was feeling wrecked in the wrists after writing and defending my Ph.D. proposal. The above book helped me to identify many problems. E.g. I'd gotten away for years with bad upper body posture while at the keyboard, not taking enough (or any) breaks, bad mousing habits, and more. The above book helped me to identify these problems and learn to correct them. Even with that knowledge, recovery was a long and uncertain time. Since then, I have made it a point to become more active, including a whole-body approach to strengthening and stretching.
That said, this book can also help you determine if you require medical help. At its worst, RSI can permenantly and severely impair your ability to use your hands, leaving you weak and in pain.
If anyone would like more details, other book references, etc. please reply via email, removing all 'spam' from my email address.
Haven't we had this discussion exactly one year ago? That you posted?
:)
Well, there's always Dvorak, though the benefits of that are up in the air. (My inciteful comment on that topic (#47) was soundly defeated. (#190)
I'm not certain that it would help, but you could get a big keyboard and feel like the world's tiniest geek.
And there's those cool one-handed keyboards. Again, I don't know if it would help, but you could use two of 'em and multi-task fiercely.
Of course, the all-thumb keyboard. It's essentially ASL, but while wearing a glove. This one is my personal favourite. Probably not as good for coding (there's a convenience, or at least a learned one, to the location of the squiggly brackets, carets, parenthesis, etc.)
Oh, and programs like ViaVoice. Those are more and more highly rated. Again, probably not good for coding, but a hell of a start. Perhaps that combined with another keyboard, like a chording one, might do ya' right.
My uncle only has the use of three fingers on one hand and two on the other. (airplane hangar doors are heavier than they look) He has had great success with voice recognition software. (under Windoze admittedly) He can compose and send entire emails without touching the keyboard. The keyboard will never dissappear, but it's days as a primary interface may be limited.
Thank you for not thinking.
Years ago, when the Microsoft Natural keyboard was first released I happened to win a little Microsoft contest that basically gave me a lot of free stuff.
One such item was a MS Natural Keyboard. I love it a lot, and when i'm typing on my laptop or a regular keyboard for a while I get wrist pain.
A word of caution however:
1. These split keyboards often put some keys in odd places (backslash, backspace, enter, the number six and seven and a the ever so important forward slash). TRY IT OUT FIRST! Go to CompUSA or your local computer store and try one out... or make a friend buy it first... or hell, but it and return it later if you don't like it. I like the MS one because I like the layout, the large keys, and the way its split.
2. These don't cure your wrist, and it is still up to you to start relaxing a bit. Take a break every hour (pickup a smoking habit if you have to). It is sometimes hard in the middle of hacking to leave your code, but do it anyway.
Find a keyboard that fits your hands. You dont want to be all over the place, and you also want keys that you don't have to punch down with a lot of effort. One of the nicest feeling keyboards (and loudest) was my old Zeos AT keyboard.
The Microsoft Natural Elite (released 98 I think) is crap. They just released a new Natural that looks the same as the original, except with these stupid internet keys up top. (do these work in linux at all.. can i remap them? anyone done this?)
Also, look into getting a quality typing brace.. they feel good.
Your other option is to continue using whatever keyboard you have in hopes that you can retire at 31 as a multi millionaire.
- Hugh
- Hugh Buchanan
- Userfriendly.com
Carpal tunnel, for example, is caused by (please don't fault me because I don't know the correct terminology) friction between your tendons and the sleeves that encase them. The friction causes wounds, the wounds scar, and that's bad.
You can have the strongest wrists in the world (try one of those martial arts that involves grabbing people. Wow!) and you can still get carpal tunnel. It's a friction thing (corrected, I believe, by better posture -- but see my advice below).
Basically, consult a physician if you want a physical solution rather than a hardware solution. Wrist strength wouldn't help you if have carpal tunnel, better posture wouldn't help you if you had weak wrists. Only one good way to find out.
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
I'm typing this on my Kinesis keyboard. I don't leave home without it, literally, on long trips where I'm going to be typing a lot.
/. Found the old discussion on the same topic. Found Kinesis recommendations. Went to their site, read endorsements from people I knew. Was impressed. Conned company into buying keyboard for me. It arrived....
;-)
.bashrc heavily. I have lots of little aliases that save me from typing things like "vi index.ph3pf" or "cd /home/httpd/com/" dozens of times per day. More macros == good, as long as they're well designed.
;) I like the feel of the little iMac kbd, but after a few days, it was killing my wrists again.
;)
Here's my deal. Nearly 20 years of computer use have taken their toll. I remember having wrist pain when I was 12 after playing Ultima IV for waaaay too long one day. By the time I was 22, it'd become a chronic problem. Finally, last year, I started investigating ways to deal with it, as it was simply becoming debilitating and too painful to deal with. I was having trouble picking things up sometimes. Bad news.
Thinking fast, I looked up this topic on
...and wow. Two weeks of using it as directed (it comes with a manual you should definately read, and advise that you should definately follow), my wrist pain had eased tremendously. I can now do push-ups with only a hint of discomfort. Before, my wrists would have buckled.
One of our developers has his plugged into his G4, which has no ADB ports -- it's USB only. Happily, the keyboard's "natural" port is a PS/2 keyboard port, which can easily be adapted to Apple ADB, or to USB. This is good, as sooner or later I'm going to have more USB hardware.
I also got a good three-button mouse. Being a PowerPC (read: Apple hardware) user, my computers shipped with one-button mice. Having a three-button mouse with Linux is darn near necessary, and I was tired of using our keyboard shortcuts for the mouse buttons. The new mouse (USB, plugged in via a PCI USB card) helped a lot. Less keystrokes == good.
Other things: I bought the foot switch for the Kinesis along with the kbd. I got the 2-btn switch, which is programmable (like the keyboard). It mostly does the shift key for me. It's nice. I should use it.
Other: Customize
So, Kinesis in my experience has turned my life around, insofar as my computing life. I get pain when I have to use other keyboards for a long time, like when my hard disk crashed and I had to use her iMac. (It's got LinuxPPC and the MacOS installed.
Exercise also helps. We geeks probably don't get enough. But anyway. Kinesis. I'd endorse 'em for the company. Do you hear me, Kinesis?
-- haaz.
Bottom line -- it's a very unique keyboard and has a lot of dedicated users, but it isn't for everyone and it has a high price tag and learning curve. And they lied about their money back guarantee. After I tried to return mine, I got hit with a very hefty restocking fee.
Personally, I would love to see a speech recognition product that lets me type with noises. Forget word/phrase recognition! It should be possible to make audio character recognition much more accurate. To me, this would be the real hand-saver. Open source, anyone?
Hey.. Rob, I was thinking of trying that very same keyboard despite the somewhat prohibitive cost. Would you recomend using? I'de wrather keep using my regular mouse if that's possible - maybe mount it seperately on the chair
itself... Any thoughts?
I am wondering exactly when in the process of typing with a "normal" keyboard do you develop wrist degradation or damage. I have been typing for a while and still suffer no damage that I can tell.
What level of actual improvement are these keyboards over standard things you would find on a typewriter or a computer.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Wrists sore? Here's your solution: Aikido.
No, it's not a keyboard, it's not a hardware manufacturing company, or even anything (directly) related to computers. It's a martial art, and it does wonders for wrist strength.
I've been using a dinky flat keyboard for six years, and have been training with Aikido for half that time, and believe me, the second half of those six years were the better. Though I'm not suggesting every geek join a dojo, I am suggesting that every geek with sore wrists go out and do something physically demanding which will strengthen them.
Funny looking keyboards can help reduce strain, but if you want to be rid of bad wrists, you've got to strengthen them before you weaken them any further. Aikido worked for me, find something that works for you.
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"Okay, who taught the cat how to type ctrl alt delete?"
Disclaimer: I'm about to marry a professional ergonomicist. :-)
Take a look at the message subjects, ( "I don't leave home without my Kinesis kbd" and "I HATE the Kinesis kbd!" ) you'll find the single most important and fundamental truth of ergonomics.
We're all built differently.
There is no single solution. There is no solution that will work for more than a certain percentage of the population. Furthermore, when you start to push your limits, the percentage that a given solution works for drops drastically.
Let's apply this specifically to keyboards.
If you use a keyboard for an hour or two per week, you can probably get away with almost any keyboard on the market. If you use a keyboard an hour a day, then some general purpose keyboards won't work for you. Others will. If you use a keyboard eight hours a day (or more!), then you are pushing the limits of what your hands and wrists can sustain, and will have to find the _precise_ ergonomic solution that works best for you. In other words, you have to go out and try as many keyboards as you can to find the one that causes the least problems ***FOR YOU***!!! The guy beside you might have stronger forearm muscles, narrower shoulders, double-jointed knuckles, or a thousand other more subtle variations which would make his perfect solution a disaster for you. EXPERIMENT! Try 'em all out, and try 'em again.
However, there's another side to the coin. If you're looking to minimise pain and/or damage, there's a good chance you're spending too much time at it. With the death of mechanical typewriters and manual carriages, we're currently often spending eight solid hours typing (with the odd bit of mousing on the side--the next time you give your sweetie a backrub, pay attention to where the tightest muscles are. If they use a computer extensively, I almost guarantee it'll be on their mouse side), without moving any other parts of our bodies. This is not what we were designed to do!
Make a point of getting some flexing in during the day. Get up and walk around for a minute every half hour or so. Shake your hands out after typing a long block.
If, after finding a good ergonomic solution and loosening up your muscles, you're still suffering, take a (real--weeks!) break, and see a professional.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban