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Sprint's Wireless Broadband - And What A TOS!
Xpresso85 writes "Just a few weeks ago, Sprint started offering Broadband Direct in my area , it's a $44/month wireless Internet service. Their Terms Of Service is one of the worst yet. You can not portscan, probe, run game or Webservers of any kind, upload or download viruses, use anonymous e-mail, view porno, post anything vulgar or hateful, you cant even encourage anything illegal. They also reserve the right to enter your home or property, monitor your activities, and "share" your personal info with other companies. Lastly, they restrict you from sending out spam, I guess they don't like competition. That's one service I won't be getting anytime in the near future!"
And how do you scratch things out if you sign up online?
With clauses that attempt to alter the material and content of the users interaction with the internet isnt Sprint volunteering to 'censor' the material. And isnt it necessary for Sprint to maintain that they are not 'responsible for the material you transmit to any degree' in order to maintain the 'common carrier' moniker? If they push these TOS arent they asking to be liable for the material you do up/download?? Can an Honest Lawyer(TM) please explain...
Also, this TOS (POS maybe a better acronym) in one breath says "you cannot up/download any porn/copyright material in violation" and then goes on to say "the internet contains porn/copyright violations" and we are not responsible if you dload them - you are! These double talking crooks are talking out of both sides of their mouths - on one hand I am expected to be capable and diligent to exclude these things and on the other they claim they can not/will not/dont feel like being responsible to act in kind...
These bastards think they have found a way to Have Their Cake and Eat It Too(TM)®©
At least read what you are posting about first. It does not say you can not view pornography or send anonymous email. It is basically the same as any other. Don't do anything illegal Darkstar
Oh, look honey, it's left me a present..What is this? Wow, a LEGAL TURD! Muy grande!
I used to work for this company. I am ashamed. But, this was hardly a surprise coming from the company that always follows the market... with a two year lag..
Innovation? What's that?
Expect a loss this Q.
"Avast! Prepare for the rodgering!" THWACK! "Arrr.. me nards.."
Random people who enter without notice are presumed to be criminals and will be treated as such.
Say hello to Mr. Mossberg.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
If you ask me, it isn't like trying to open doors. All a portscan does is see what services a machine runs. Mail? Web? FTP? SSh?... It's like a house has doors for certain things and you're seeing what each is for.
10.16 You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns. (my bold)
Is that legal? You sign a contract that means when you sell your house it still applies? They can still bundle their heavies in to fiddle with equipment even though you moved out four years ago and Mr and Mrs Numbskull that moved in haven't a clue what that funny wire in the wall is for?
I'm pretty sure that over here in the UK you can't put terms and conditions like that on a contract. Isn't there something in the US constitution?
Oh, I had to look up 'inure' on www.dictionary.com.
"To habituate to something undesirable, especially by prolonged subjection; accustom"
And it still didn't make much sense...
Baz
Your response made perfect sense to me to start with. The part about refusing to pay for services or goods not rendered, I really like that. Too many companies in today's economy forget that the mainstay of good business is to provide good products and services, not to fool the customer into thinking the products or services are good when they're really not.
However, you really go downhill from there. You clearly have no conception of what is means to be a capitalist. You mispell the word, for goodness' sake. It's CAPITALISM, as in capital, as in transferable resources. Corporatism, which is the true target of your ire, is not synonymous with capitalism. The problem with the economy in the US is not that is is capitalist, but that it is less and less capitalist everyday.
In a capitalist economy, the proper function of the government is to provide and protect access to information. I should be able to find out that cigarettes are bad, Firestone tires will kill me, or whether the fruit I'm buying is genetically modified or not. Our government, however, fails to do that. I believe the failure is direct response to the entitlement mentality engendered by the government beginning with the New Deal. The government no longer protects our access to information, which means that AOL/Time Warner effectively controls what Americans believe and what information they have access to. It's a shame, really.
Corporations take advantage of that lack of information by providing shitty goods and services. That's why so many companies are intent on loading their products with new features instead of reliability. They know that more than likely, we won't be able to find out how reliable their product is before we buy it, but we sure will notice the pretty box with the big list of features.
The real answer to corporatism is not naive anti-globalism and an end to capitalism, the answer is to educate people to understand their alternatives and make reliable information freely available. End consumerism and you will end corporatism. End capitalism, and you will end freedom.
The thing that turns me off most about the Sprint TOS is section 7.1.20 which prohibits me from using my Sprint wireless internet connection to telecommute to my job. That's pretty stupid!
That's what the "back door" is for....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Any time you have to depend on claims of "We wouldn't really do that, it's just for our protection", wonder why the language isn't equally broad in your own favor for _your_ own protection.
A friend of mine overseas set up a firewall and asked me to port scan it so he could close up any unneeded services. I think thats a legitimate use of a portscanner.
AT&T@home has similar req's, but even do a better job of notifying you that if your perfectly acceptable use becomes some sort of a bandwidth hog to your neighbors, you will be limited immediately and without notice. Oh, and they just clamped down on all uploads...
But hey...it's cheap. Admit it.
--The statistical likelihood of your existence is so small as to render you impossible.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
"7.1.21. run programs or servers that provide network services to others through the Services which includes, but is not limited to, web hosting, multi-user interactive forums, game servers..." Does this mean I can't play http://www.zone.com/boggle?
FoxPro Home Page
I personally believe that, in this situation, I should be held by it. Of course, anyone who agrees to not speak unless they get it approved by Bill Gates is obviously not sane... :)
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Yes you do. It was confirmed recently in court.
Since all the traffic from the Internet to your machine (or vice versa) has to go through Sprint's routers, they can easily monitor the traffic there. If there is a steady flow of data on certain ports and they themselves can't access your machine on these ports, they should be quick to figure things out, if the router admin in question is not a complete moron. It is quite trivial from then to directly access your box with a faked IP which recently had a connection to your server.
If you only grant access to certain IPs on the same subnet, it wouldn't be so easy to find out, although in that case they aren't probably that interested in your traffic. A sniffer in their wireless base station should do the trick, though.
--
Cthulhu fhtagn!
My landlady actually can't even knock at my door w/o giving me 24 hours notice. Weird, huh?
-matt
I mean that seems kind of harsh.
I suppose anything can stand until it is challenged in court though, right?
BlackNova Traders
7.1 When you use the Services for Internet access, you must protect the Sprint network by either disabling or password protecting file and print sharing on your computer(s) or have a firewall solution that prohibits unauthorized access to your computer.
SO they are forcing people to protect there system, but do they require people to know how to do that too?
7.1.4 post, publish, transmit, reproduce, distribute or in any way exploit any information, software or other material obtained through Services for commercial purposes;
This basically eliminates you from doing anything useful with the material you get. Suppose you find an algoryth, or code, that would work great in the shareware project your working on, well you can't use it because it could be considered use for comercial purposes.
The more I look at this TOS, the more I realise not to do business with Sprint--AT ALL! You can't do anything on there service!
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
With the general level of tech support out there, everyone is in danger of being labeled a hacker at some point. You can't trust that the drones know what they're doing, and all it takes is one mistake on their part to mess everything up in a legal sense. Guess who wins if a customer tries to take legal action against Sprint with less than a few million dollars and a team of five lawyers.
No, the story was about a guy who made his own MP3's from his own music and put them on the web space provided by his provider, who in turn deleted them all.
I don't know where you get your information, but it's certainly not the acceptable use policy. Oh, sure... They can terminate your service if you're a hacker. Well *duh*... ok, don't port scan, don't DoS, don't attack, don't post viruses or trojans. They can terminate your service if you threaten to kill all the f*ing n***er s**th***s. Free speech is one thing, but there are laws against that kind of stuff, not just ToS. What section prevents me from viewing porn?
Can you imagine what Sprint's lawyers could do to you in a civil suit after you injure one of their employees who legally entered your home? Some people who defend their property with what can be logically seen as a reasonable amount of violence are successfully sued by would-be thieves who illegally enter their homes. Sprint would eat your lunch. Then they would, like, beat up your mom.
And with other broadband services around (cable is much cheaper) why would anybody even consider using this service ?
Wireless broadband is particulary well-suited to service within areas where no other high-speed connectivity exists. It's good to be the only game in the area.
The first part says that they may limit your OS. The second part says if you happen to choose another OS or hardware device, it better not fsck up the network for others. But read carefully, it really includes any device including Windoze machines. So if someone hacks your NT box and somehow uses it for a DOS attack. Then you are violating 2.5.
Have you ever looked at an apartment contract? How about electricity/gas? I believe Time Warner even has a "we can enter your premises even if you aren't here" item in their TOS.
On the flipside, you have to consider Sprint's side. If you've got a tranceiver blowing up your entire area, what are they gonna do? Cut off your electricity? Build a giant EMF shield around your house?
Of course, that's because it's formatted for Windoze standard character assignments... which reminds me of another scary part:
So, in other words, if they decide that they want only Windoze on their network (read: Microsoft leans on them a bit...), can they just boot all MacOS/Linux/BSD/etc. users off, saying that they might "impair the Services?!"
"...the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do."
If you ask me, it isn't like trying to open doors. All a portscan does is see what services a machine runs. Mail? Web? FTP? SSh?... It's like a house has doors for certain things and you're seeing what each is for.
And in reply I'd say that if you weren't explicitly told it's none of your business and you're not welcome. If a house has many doors it isn't my right to check what they're for unless there's big signs welcoming me in. What about people scanning for backdoors : They're not just checking to see what they're for...they're looking for victims.
Well, I actually hope that spirnt will fold. They still owe me $100 for a cell phone that I didn't keep over the 14 day period (but I got charged a cancellation fee. This was back in august. Oh that reminds me, I have to call them back and see if they have processed it.
You can be replaced by a very small shell script.
You come home from work one day, and notice a new cell tower in your back yard, where your bird feeder used to stand!
But under the new digital signature law, that mouse click is a signature.
It's not really that much different from @Home's Acceptable use policy, which prohibits the running of any servers. Of course they don'y really mean you can't run PC Anywhere, IRC, Napster, etc. all of which are server services. Thier customers would leave them in droves if that were the case, and they know it too. When I asked an @Home rep what was the best way to transfer large files to friends, he said go ahead and use FTP - just don't use so much bandwidth that it comes to our attention! As many previous posters said, this AUP is just to cover thier ass, it surely won't be strictly enforced.
Just because I know some Sprint Lawyers/marketroids/other evill PHB types will read this - and I have the karma to burn:
It takes real scum (like you) to foist this kind of crap on the public, just to fill the corporate coffers -- You'll First Against The Wall when the revolution comes. It may even be soon - and trust me: it will come - it always does..
Why dont you monkeys do something constructive - call the Boss(TM) right now and tell them these TOS are immoral. "Immoral you say, who cares about morals - we are trying to make money! If you dont like it -- dont buy our service, buy it from someone else! This is the Real Word(TM)®©" And you've just exactly made my point.
Fact is there is no one else - you provide a necessary public infrastructure... and again, eventually slugs like yourselves will have to answer why you spent your adult lives trying to screw your neighbours with your well funded hammer... all because you are selfish, irresponsible and greedy.
Fucking Assholes.
Most states or provinces in north america have a set of landlord/tenant laws, and there is a clause in those laws that says one cannot sign any contract giving up certain rights, the rights remain, regardless of any contract signed giving them up. This prevents unscrupulous landlords from writing up horrid contracts and then abusing their tenants, or vice versa.
If they had a similar thing for internet access, all this would be solved.
Actually, if you're not a customer any more, the contract is terminated, and they don't even have the right to enter your property to get their hardware (though they can sue you for its safe return.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think you'll find Microsoft have a 25% stake. This does not constitute being wholly owned...
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
The TOS never explicitly says "pornography," but is does have this:
[you may not...]
7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind . . ."
Pornography can be regulated without violating free speech laws because it is considered obscene; that's part of the legal definition. Never mind that there is no objective definition for obscenity.
Which is what really bugs me about 7.1.2 -- these are all subjective descriptions. Guess who decides the definitions?
From the TOS
/. trolls! As long as the Religious Right(properly pronounced "Dogmatic Wrong") are in control of the lawmaking in the US and sodomy remains illegal, we can TOS people for linking to goatse.cx!
7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations;
Yea!!! Now we can TOS
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
Yup. This particular TOS is pretty much designed to make sure that they can enforce something at some time rather than everything at every time. Specifically, they mention that:
In other words, Susie runs SuSe and sshd on her home box so she can use, e.g., scp from work to home and back. Now, that *could* be seen as an illegal server (although there could be a loophole due to the fact that the TOS only bans servers used by "others"). But in fact, they would never bother with this. On the other hand, Ned is a napster user who is not only sucking up all the local bandwidth but arguably sharing MP3s in a way that could be construed to involve copyright infringement. They will probably tell him to knock it off.
The most worrisome point of this TOS is one that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
I've marked possible typos with [sic] here. One problem here is that there is arguably never any good (non-marketing) reason to collect "personal identifiable information" in the first place, since this is the kind of thing that is ripe for subpoena. Indeed, most corporations are learning the lesson that they should do things like forcibly delete email and log information pretty rapidly, just so that third parties won't have anything to go after. Now, it's possible that Sprint never really does store personal identifiable information except email, but they don't say that.
Problem two is that even if they only collect information about web-browsing behavior in the aggregate, they (or other marketers) can often have other information about you that can be used to do an alarmingly good job of determining who surfed where...and targeting you for directed marketing campaigns in the process. Now, there may be very little escape from the Database Nation these days, and you can argue that at least they are being frank, but this kind of thing still gives me the creeps.
Babar
ive had sprint broadband here in AZ for about 3 months now.. and i wish i had time to worry about somebody coming in my house because my mp3 bandwidth is stressing sprints backbone. if you take away the high latency, the slow downloads, and frequent 10 - 15 second "outages".. sprint broadband is 1 helluva service! seriously though, if you are trying to decide between cable or sprint broadband.. go cable. the service is way more reliable. just my 2 "sense" tilted
2.3 Sprint may revise, modify or discontinue at any time ... any terms and conditions in this Agreement.
If they can change the agreement at any time, then the actual contents of the agreement at any particular time are of no consequence. If they suddenly decide they need the right to bone your wife, they will just change the TOS to suit.
Your obligations to Sprint: Pay us on time, do not offend us in ANY way.
Sprint's obligation to you, the customer:
None.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
I agree that the "third world country" card is overplayed, but somehow I don't think it's their choice to live there so stupidity is hardly a given.
When does open troll season come in?
So (if actually legal) this clause says that if any previous owner of your property has ever had Sprint, Sprint has these rights over you?
Yikes!
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
A lot of ISPs have these kinds of clauses in thier TOS agreements already. It's basically, as I'm sure everyone knows already, to cover thier own asses. All the ISPs that I've worked for have very similar clauses. For example, 7.1.2 is pretty much a textbook condition: you'll find a paragraph that looks very similar to this in almost every big ISP's TOS.
Some of them are kind of hard to belive tho, such as 7.1.7 and 7.1.8, and 7.1.18 - kind of ridiculous if you ask me. But it's still the usual run-of-the-mill legal drivel, basically used to cover the company when some snotty lawyer gets in thier face. Half of it is not really enforced on a regular basis. (Imagine how many customers around the world ISP's would lose if they all couldn't upload/view porn!)
>>5.1 Although Sprint will make commercially reasonable efforts to
>>maintain the Services, you may experience service interruptions
> I have a real problem with this idea. If Sprint
>is unable to deliver the product (the service
Okay, while the rest of the TOS has its problems. This one disturbs me the least.
On the tech side Sprint and other wireless broadband companies use MMDS (Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Services) and it is a notoriously flaky medium. It depends on clear line of sight transmission, so buildings, hills, and even trees will break up the signal and add noise. For example, back in the days before cable, did you ever see 'ghosts' on your tv as the signal came in a fraction of second late or a little bit of snow because of an atmospheric disturbance? Imagine what that does to data...
Some of the new modems (and ones in development) are addressing the line-of-sight transmission, signal to noise, and error correction issues. More on the LOS and Non-LOS problem
On the legalese side it strikes me more as a force majeur clause. ig "If our transmitters get knocked over by a earthquake/tornado/comet, you may experience an outage of service while we put up another one"
<DISCLAIMER>
Yes I work in this field, these are my opinions not my employer's. etc...etc..
</DISCLAIMER>
* We dance where angels fear to tread *
This is the same kind of crap that At&t told me when I got the cable modem from them. It is just a standard CYA so they don't get accused for any illicit actions of its users.
You can be sure they will be port scanning you as well to see if you are running any news servers and such.
good fun,
--vxd
What really annoys me though is how ISP's can demand you NOT run servers on your own computer. An ISP should have no right to dictate what I can run on my computer and what I can't, provided that it has no negative impact on their network. An ftp server that pumps out 50 gigs of files a day is understandable, but my ISP has complained about my hobby webserver which puts out under 1 *meg* a day. Napster hurts them alot more than my webserver, yet napster is fine to use...
-
For one thing it says "this contract which defines a customer-provider relationship lets us do something with your property in perpetuity even after you terminate our contract". That is bullshit and I don't believe it would stand up in court anywhere. It's your property, you can let them in or not as you please. If they have a problem (i.e. they are leasing you equipment that you don't own and you won't return) they can sue you for it, but that doesn't give them the legal right to break into your home and take it.
I know I'm not alone. There was a group of local geeks (I was one of them) running a private ISP with all sorts of goodies like 24/7, private connection on the other end, ISDN, etc. When cable/DSL rolled out virtually simultaneously, we realized we could get the same 24/7 connectivity with 10 times the speed at half the price. Some moved to cable, some to DSL. Those of us who went to cable were expecting to be able to run our servers since we'd made our intentions clear from the start. No dice. I know of several local companies who ended up in the same boat. The cable company made them all sorts of promises about how they'll "never actually enforce that" only to have their email servers go dark.
As for having better things to do than snoop, you must be dealing with a different company than I am. Most of the reported scans on my gateway (discounting Windoze people who don't know how to configure their networks) come from "sniffers" at the cable company.
This coupled with Sprint's ever so knowledgeable and helpful support staff should make people pop right out of the woodwork... Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it just means you'll get stuck in more remote places.
Intelligence is like four wheel drive, having it just means you'll get stuck in more remote places.
What many of you seem to forget is that illegal clauses in a contract are unenforceable. Just because they say one thing, that doesn't mean the law won't see it correctly.
For example, even though parking lots routinely disclaim any responsibility for damage to your car, if they are negligent, the are absolutely responsible, hold-harmless clauses notwithstanding.
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
Hmm.. I wouldnt expect so. The service is provided by agreement and payment. If there are terms of service, and you accept them, then you are bound by said terms. I dont mean to be rude, but if we stop for a second (in all seriousness) and think about that phrase, it all comes back to terms. Terms of service. You may pay for it, but you also agree to abide by the rules. What I would propose is that you would/should find some form of enforcing your own privacy, such as encrypting your mail with PGP or GPG. I havent heard of a free SSL proxy out there, but that may work, although with ISPs now using enforced proxying of http/https (does proxied https requests bother anyone *else*?) requests even that may not work. But PGP/GPG mail and news would work to some extent. I'm sure that put in the situation you would find some way to guarantee your own privacy when the corporation behind you fails to do so.
---
Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
For some inane reason this post was moderated as "Offtopic" when it is clearly not. It is specifically referring to section 10.16 which states:
IANAL, but this sounds like Sprint claims that once you've ever used their service, they have a permanent right to enter your property without your permission even after you cancel the service. Not good.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
They offer porn, but you can't download it.
So, ya think this qualifies as class action material?
Hmmmmm. . .
Moekandu
"Think of it as evolution in action." Oath of Fealty - Niven & Pournelle
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognizes genius. -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
I agree that it states that you won't send the virus. However, this poses a problem. What if you have a virus on your computer, and you send it to NAV to be tested. However, some hacker gets the file enroute, uses it, and gets infected. He then sues Sprint, who in turn shuts off your service, because you were uploading a virus! Wow...good stuff there. While I agree there has to be a level of protection, I think this takes it a bit too far. One of the agreements was that you would pay for anything you ordered with a credit card. Really? How does that have *anything* to do with them? What if I got jipped? Do I lose my connection because I refused to pay for a worthless product? Amazing...
Random Musings
I always wonder when they say they ban servers. Would a server not really be an program that listens on any given port? Therefore Napster, ICQ (and other instant messangers), etc. all are servers, but they aren't band as far as I know. Those programs however are programs used by "regular" users and if they were banned there would be an outcry.
I don't see why one can't run say ftp to retrieve thier own files, I do this (it's allowed on my service) and I can gain access anywhere with a net connection to my files.
If only we could get a TOS to change everything, to regulate (and therefor make "nice") every possible aspect of our lives...
If we forbid mean speech, we can eliminate it in the way we have eliminated drug use by making it illegal.
www.ridiculopathy.com
10.16 You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns.
This alone is enough to keep me from signing up. This is an outrageous violation of the privacy of every customer by any measure.
7.7 Sprint has no obligation to monitor the Services. You agree that Sprint has the right to monitor the Services electronically from time to time, and you consent to Sprint's access, use and disclosure of any information as necessary to satisfy any law, regulation or other governmental request, to operate the Services properly, to improve the Services, or to protect itself or its customers. Sprint reserves the right to refuse or to remove any information or materials, in whole or in part, that in its sole discretion are unacceptable, undesirable, or in violation of this Agreement.
The "other governmental request" is scary (where'd the 4th amendment go?)
7.1.1 [You agree to] restrict or inhibit any other user from using the Internet;
What? Your friends can't use it?
7.1.20 [You agree not to] engage in any commercial or business activities using a residential account without prior express written consent from Sprint;
Apparently you can't work from home if that work involves internet access.
7.1.13 ... "denial of service" attacks (port scans, ...
If their network is so outdated that nmap could crash it (they seem to think it is a DoS attack) then they deserve it.
Almost every single hosting or ISP vendor requires to submit to an "Acceptable Use Policy" that is as vague and open-ended as the quoted language. I bet at least 80% of the people reading this post have ISP's that can delete their accounts at the ISP's sole discretion. If you are a business customer, you are probably going to have to pay a termination penalty of 50% of the fees remaining under the contract.
5.1 Although Sprint will make commercially reasonable efforts to maintain the Services, you may experience service interruptions
I have a real problem with this idea. If Sprint is unable to deliver the product (the service) I do not pay. Simple. I dont care what you feel is "commercially reasonable". I have a VERY hard time with paying for something they are not providing - under any circumstance. Standard 'customer' protection laws should exist that nullify any attempt for anyone to include the above clause. How would sprint like it if I felt I was not 'commercially reasonable' for me to make my payments on time - or at all? The pizza you ordered has 2 pcs missing because delivering a full pie was "commercailly unreasonable", I get one shoe without a lace - but I have no right to ask for a discount to replace the lost lace... the TOS we are seeing with everything these days is showing one thing: American Capatalism has bread a monopoly in mostly every industry.
If it were as simple as 'making a choice to a better product' (read without these TOS) people would do it. The simple fact is the barrier to entry in most markets (of any consequence) is so high that only a few companies can try... and when they do - it is much easier to collude and exclude any possible interlopers.
The power being demonstrated in this Sprint TOS is really only an indicator of a much larger problem... unfortunatly it is systemic to the American corporate-centric economy.. power concentrates, it is easier to collude than compete once a certain state has been achieved (as it has been), Capatalism ends in Monopolistic oppression... Anti-Trust laws are intended to stop this... but the same people who run the country also own the business... fat chance of any of this power being given away freely (ie a strengthening of Anti-Trust law...).
So tell me again; Why did America elect a Republicrat instead of a Honets leader like say umm anyone except a Republicrat? Maybe Ralph Nader would run for President and put an end to this crap.(?!?!) Oh yeah, he did... and America got to watch their 'democracy' in action in Florida... A pretty nice 'play' if you ask me - almost enough to convince people their is a difference between the two parties, and that they should NEVER think of voting third party - it is obviously a wasted vote... *shudder* and this is really what people think...
Get ready world - you have not yet recieved all the TOS for your futures...
7.1.8 [You can't post materials that are used to] avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate or circumvent by any means, any process or system such as copy protection systems that are intended to protect the rights of a copyright owner;
Why don't they just come out and say "You can't post DeCSS." Would have been a more efficient use of space.
7.1.19 resell the Services or any other Sprint service to any third parties without prior express written consent from Sprint;
This is almost understandable, but still bugs me. If you pay for the service, you should be able to hack it up and sell little bits of it to whomever you please, imho. But then again, if three people who only require a third of the service go together on an account, then Sprint has lost two accounts that would not have used thier entire service. Understandable? Almost. Wrong and unfair? Almost.
7.4 The Internet contains unedited materials that may be offensive or objectionable to you. You access these materials at your own risk. Sprint has no control over and accepts no responsibility for these materials. Customer may wish to utilize software designed to limit access to certain material on the Internet.
But didn't they already rule out just about EVERYTHING objectionable a few paragrahs up?
And finally... Part of 10.6: ...You agree that any IP Addresses provided by Sprint will be returned to Sprint on the termination date of this Agreement.
...as if you can just take the IP address and run away with it. **closes eyes and shakes head**
Very, very sad. This whole thing reminds me of Network Solutions--they make you pay for a service, but want you to live under the illusion that everything you're paying for still belongs to them, and you should be happy that they're taking time out of their busy schedule to do anything at all that you're paying them for...
================
================
Microsoft is not the answer, Microsoft is the question. The answer is "no".
I hate it when people complain of restricting TOS agreements that some companies give out. It seems like everyone doesn't realize that this is a SERVICE. It's not something they are forcing you to buy. While the agreement might be restricting to the average linux user, for 99.9% of the windows users, this is a perfectly fine agreement.
The only thing I have a problem with, after reading the agreement, is that they are requesting you to give up rights that you don't have the right to give away, like the ability for the people to come into the premeses after you aren't living there anymore. That's like asking my neighbor if they can have the right to enter my house. I didn't give my neighbor the right to give my rights away, and he can't tell them that they can, and even if he did, it wouldn't be legally challengable.
Also - for all these people who are opposing the agreement. So what. What you need to do it make it known to the public. If AT&T suddenly ends up with a service that isn't gaining any customers, guess what, they just might change the TOS so that they can get customers. Oh well.
You can't see this if you have sigs turned off.
As for port scans I see port scans being used to preclude a DOS attack as being banned, but what about an innocent port scan (I occasionally do them to test security on systems I own across the internet...)? The text of the acceptable use policy makes port scans used for a DoS attack unacceptable (as well it should), but port scans in general do not appear to be outlawed.
-
There's very little about the SprintBBD TOS that's different from any other TOS you'll find.
What *is* different about SprintBBD is that they won't provide you with e-mail or news access. For that, you're required to depend on their "partner," Earthlink.
Earthlink spams their own users. Their "status" webpage *always* indicates "online and operational" no matter what the server status really is (and when you can telnet to port 25 on the mailserver and get "connection refused," that's a fairly good indication that the mailserver is *down*.) Their news servers have poor retention, abysmal speed, and regularly "belch" old messages that are marked as "new."
Should you call Earthlink's tech support personnel, prepare to be walked through a script that includes the reinstall of Windows (even if you didn't have it installed in the first place) and Earthlink's own proprietary package (even if you didn't have *it* installed, either.)
There are more reasons to avoid SprintBBD than their TOS - like the fact that they're partnered with a company populated by people who make AOL users look *bright*.
Specialization is for insects. - R.A.H.
I was being silly, I know they aren't going to enter your home without permission. But why would they have it in their TOS? It just looks stupid.
Finkployd
True. You don't have a "right" to use their service. Also, the bill of rights only applies to the federal government (and state governements as amendments are incorporated). Private organizations are free to restrict your speech as they wish.
I was watching T.V. this weekend and saw an AT&T broadband commercial touting their download speeds by saying that you can download a song at lightning-fast speeds. Interestingly enough, their TOS says:
I noticed problems with this part of the TOS before this commercial and when I tried to point out the incongruity, they told me that they don't interpret legal documents. I responded that I was merely pointing out a mistake in their terms of service and that I intended to violate that specific clause by creating an .mp3 of my own (poor) musical performance that would be copyrighted (with myself as the copyright holder) and distribute the file over their service. The forwarded the e-mail to their abuse department and that was the last I heard from them.
I figure either someone got the message and the TOS hasn't been updated yet. :)
Of course, the more likely scenario is that their ad agency isn't bright enough to breathe, let alone be familiar with their TOS!
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
How lame. An AOL flame.
Besides the TOS, the service itself is excellent. Or at least mine is. The tech support was actually able to answer questions intelligently. I'm not sure I agree with the TOS, but I bought it as a present for someone who wouldn't really care too much, so overall I'm pretty happy.
Have you read my journal today?
Hey, everyone respond to the highly moderated troll! I'll join in now; otherwise what kind of successful troll would it be?
I know we love to have these "devil's advocate" sorts of posts to make us think more, but sometimes we really have trouble finding good ones, and it gets tiresome. For example, how many times do we need to see this line: I REALLY wish people woudl read posts before flaming away. Yeah, yeah, I know-- RTFA. Do you realize RTFA is NOT a sufficient rebuttal? Does it occur to you that people may indeed have the expressed opinions after reading the TOS? Every point listed is, at the very least, quite debatable:
1) attempting to send e-mail or newsgroup articles or postings using a name or address of someone other than yourself, attempting to impersonate any person or using forged headers or other identifying information.
There is a lot of "or" in that sentence. What qualifies as a forged header, or forged identifying information? Would the anonymizer count? How about in front of a tech-illiterate judge, with Sprint's lawyers vs. your small-ass pocketbook?
2) You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns.
This goes beyond the right most service providers have. I sure haven't granted my DSL provider permission to come into my house and take the modem back, especially when I'm not home. And the whole bit about the right surviving termination of the agreement-- not likely to stand up in court, since if you no longer agree to the contract, you no longer agree to any of it, including this part. Still, with the latest legislation of business models, the courts seem remarkably anti-consumer. Are you willing to bet on him ruling your way when, a month after you cancel service, a Sprint rep walks by your window and sees a bag of weed inside on the table?
3) Their list of stuff you can't send, if you READ IT PROPERLY, explains that wehat they are saying is that you can't do anything illegal. They even SAY THAT. How hard is that to understand, hmm?
How hard is this sentence to understand: "you may not post or transmit any... objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation, any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations."
Notice they say, right there, right for you-- "including without limitation". Which means that all that is just clarification text, and what they've really prohibited is "objectionable information". You don't think that's a little excessive?
I REALLY wish people would read posts before flaming away.
And I see that Slashdot agrees with me:
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted.
Reason: Junk character post.
So I had to do some editing to get it accepted.
Did you even read the thing? It states that they do NOT share your personal information, only network usage statistics in aggregate.
They can only enter your home for installation, removal, or repair, not for monitoring, this is normal as this is what your phone, cable, utility companies do also.
They don't prohibit downloading of anything, only transmission of viruses, spam, warez, etc.
The only truly objectionable thing I saw was no running servers, but that might be a good thing if their infrastructure can't handle that. Personally, if it can't, I'm not going to use it. Who would want to game on a server running on a wireless connection anyway?
Comforting to know your ISP would openly sell your info (anonymous or not). Then again maybe they all do, it's been a while since I've read a TOS.
I'm sure the activity from the 8 computers on my DSL line would be raising a few eyebrows.
on this page at the Sprint Site it appears that the girl has her hands cuffed by the broadband symbol? http://www.sprintbroadband.com/order/index.html
AT&T @Home is the same way.
I recently moved into a @Home area. I called in advance to set up an install date -- but the system saw the phone number I was calling from, realized that I couldn't have @Home in that area, played a message and hung up on me! I eventually had to call Excite @Home's toll number and have them connect me. (And repeat this over and over while I had tech problems with them.)
That'll teach me to have a mobile phone with an LA area code while living in Seattle. I had to use a friend's land line with the proper area code/prefix when I tired of the toll charges.
I wrote a nasty letter to ATT @Home, and mentioned this insanity to everyone I talked to over there, but no one could help.
Corporations are kind of like black holes. Once you attain a certain mass, no customer service can escape.
Personally, I think the people at Sprint are a bunch of poo-poo heads who are most likely minorities who are stereotypically smelly and dirty. If I ever see a Sprint executive I shall spit on them and insult their mothers because I hate them. Incidently I'm naked while writing this if you want to check out my web cam. Oh, did I mention Hitler had some good ideas?
Whoops. I just lost my sprint account. Back to dialup!
The Internet is generally stupid
Isn't wireless, which counts as 'public broadcast' covered by much stricter laws, in the USA, than anything going over phone/cable lines? Might explain the harsh rules. Then again, might be standard Corporate Cluelessness(tm).
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Also, their service has never gone down in the entire time I've used it. It works with Linux and other Unix since it's standard TCP/IP.
Anyway, their TOS is pretty standard. Most residential broadband services won't let you run a server, and the stuff about port-scanning is a good thing. The IP address I was issued was in the 24.x.x.x range and I get port-scanned from AT&T @home users on a regular basis (5-10 times a day). My firewall just blocks it and logs the attempt.
The bottom line is that the TOS is just there to protect their right to kick customers that are a nuisance. If some l33t script kiddie wants to port scan entire class A blocks for netbios shares he deserves to be kicked.
I also couldn't find anything in the TOS about their right to come into your house and watch you surf the net. Did the submitter just make that shit up? If it's there, will someone actually quote it?
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
As a lot of posters have pointed out, this is standard legalese boilerplate for a TOS. It looks a lot like the one for @Home or for any of the big telco DSL providers (SNET, Verizon, BA, PacBell, etc).
I find it interesting that most of those others try to ban multiple computers using the connection at one time. SNET in particular (I used to have their service) goes as far as to say that they don't mind you having their DSL modem hooked into a home LAN, so long as you only use the internet from one PC on that LAN at one time. They are, of course, happy to provide additional IPs for an additional fee...
Anyway, this particular TOS doesn't address that. Apparently they do offer additional IP's, but they don't forbid things like DSL routers or IP Masquerade.
So basically they're doing what all the other big ISPs are doing. Which is why I'm with a small one.
Hehe...mea culpa.
There is a big difference between having a law against me looking at a house and you telling me to leave. (Yes, I know there is no law against portscanning, but most don't have a walking - down - the - street service provider (WDTSSP)).
I mean, imagine that I portscan not a private machine, but a public server. That's still against the TOS! Am I looking for victims? Maybe. I portscan servers sometimes to see what they run. Now the server can disallow such, log me, whatever. But should I be banned every time I do it? I don't think so.
Oh, I'd just love to see how the plan to detect my use of a PACKET SNIFFER... (passive listening device) Hey if someone sends a packet of data to my computer without my asking for it, it's obviously a gift (cuecat?) and I can do as I please with said packet =P ahahahhaha
It takes real scum (like you) to foist this kind of crap on the public, just to fill the corporate coffers -- You'll First Against The Wall when the revolution comes. It may even be soon - and trust me: it will come - it always does..
I seriously doubt there will be any "revolution" in the lifetimes of any /. reader or their descendants. Pople, for the most part, are lazy slobs. Revolutions take work, and of course "rock the boat," making life difficult. Lord knows we can't have that, as it'd keep people from enjoying their fat, dumb, happy spoonfed life brought to them by $MEGACORP.
I've seen the future. You know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin, sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener." (brought to you, of course, by the same folks that get a European teen arrested and his equipment confiscated because the kid threatens their pseudo-monopoly.)
[insert witty quote here]
Ouch. That almost sounds like the subcontracted BLAZEMONGER's "Customer Service" department.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
The service looks little better than TW/RR's cable comsumer level access as far as what you can and can't do. The bigger question is whether or not they can be required to provide open access to their broadband service. TW, by being big and piggy, has successfully stonewalled a number of states and municipalities which have tried to require them to provide IP transport to the provider of one's choice rather than to their own proprietary service.
"Everything works if you let it" - The Flying Mouse
In the real world, you are not going to be prosecuted by the State of New York for sitting in your home in California and viewing New York-based pornography, so the point is moot.
Um, try reading the TOS. They do not ban downloading porn; they can not enter your house as they please; they actually REQUIRE you to have some form of firewall so that NOONE can monitor your computer; and they don't monitor what you do personally, just in aggregate, like every other ISP out there...
Man, people, please read the linked articles before over-reacting... It's just standard legalese. It may be worded more 'harshly', but it's the same as every major ISP out there. (Well, the requirement that you can't run a server is very @Home-like, and a little much, I do have to admit that.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Although, knowing me, I'm probably wrong :-)
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
Well for one, Ricochet offers 128kbps on a handy little receiver small enough to piggyback on your laptop. Might not be as fast, but pretty damn cool.
Ok my karma is maxed out. When do I become Enlightened?
... vulgar, ... profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information...
I wonder how those restrictions would stand up to a Constitutional test by the ACLU. The others are already covered under existing case law (ie.. obscenity laws or laws regarding libel).
Off to EFF.net to see what they've got on this.
(so much for meeting my deadlines this week).
Scott
But they don't say what the equipment will do, and they don't say that that is all that they will do when the enter "to install, repair, replace, or remove equipment". So at minimum they can install arbitrary equipement, and they don't have to tell you what it is. And they get to choose when. (There doesn't seem to be any provision that requires that your, or some other responsible party, allow them entrance.)
If this thing is (or becomes) legal, then it's quite an arrangement.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that.
... climb out and hang ...
Oh yes you do.
---
Put your feet out and stop
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
I have no idea why they had the balls to put that in there, since there is no way in hell that that would be upheld in a court. This is America, we're not allowed to sign our rights away that easily.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I've been waiting for ADSL service for 2 years, and the cable company has been a couple of months away from cable modem service for a year now. The Sprint guys showed up when promised, the service worked out of the box. It works great with Linux (can you say IP Masquerading?). I get killer throughput on downloads (did some 220KB/sec downloads from an FTP server last night)
The service does have some latency, (which they told me about up front), and the upload performance seems suspect.
You are buying a connection to the internet for personal use and they have priced it that way. I don't want to susidize some guy running an eCommerce site out of his basement by paying a higher monthly rate.
Earthlink includes a free website with the service so you can put up a static site.
So they don't want you doing anything illegal? or wasting bandwidth, or generally pissing off the whole Internet community. Gee, like some other ISP would encourage this?
Cat: The other white meat
Exactly. What, you don't want to waive your rights ??? Look for a job elsewhere. . .
this is probably mostly due to standard regulations regarding use of the airwaves. you can't send porn, bad words, etc. on most radio services because some kid might tune in and be forever harmed because he saw someone else's private parts.
sc
I agree with *some* of the Terms, but as a good friend of mine once put.. Are you selling the bandwidth or not?
Flashcom DSL (although not the best in customer service) pretty much allows you to do what you like with the bandwidth, although their TOS clearly states the same type rules (but not as in-depth).
Before I ordered it many moons ago, I asked the service rep about hooking the service up to a Masquerading box (their TOS claims no NAT), and the guy simply said: "We don't check on it unless you're hacking the pentagon, and they call us".
I'm sure Sprint's the same type of deal. I wouldn't worry folks.
-brain
No it can't.
Finkployd
Ok I didnt see anywhere in the TOS where it said "you cant surf porn". And for good reason. I work at an ISP. We know that a good 50% of our buisness is people surfing porn. Porn is the #1 reason that the inernet is as fast as it is. If you didnt have to download hi-res pics or 30sec movies with sound for porn then there would have been no demand for fat pipes. We would all be surfing slashdot on our 14.4 looking at ASCII frames and all text.
Thank god for porn!
as for the rest of the TOS it looks all standard. Please read people. I know the pictures are nice but there are words next to 'em too.
Yes, paranoid.
Yes, they have access even after you terminate your agreement, SO THEY CAN COME AND REMOVE THEIR EQUIPMENT.
Duh!!!
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
There is actually some protection from that in Sprint's TOS... "...run programs or servers that provide network services to others" so unless they can prove that you're letting other people access your box over telnet/ftp/Hotline/whatever you haven't violated the agreement. Still no good for serving (upstream blows on Sprint anyway, especially in Phoenix) but at least you can access your own system (of course if they want to term you for it they'll find another way).
-- V
How will Sprint attempt to prevent you from using crypto to violate their TOS? Strong crypto has gotten so easy to use, I believe that they're just asking to have their TOS ripped to shreads.
They've also decided to ban web browsers IRC clients, and instant messaging. And you are not allowed to receive email unless it is from a Sprint-approved SPAM provider.
They will also disconnect you if you or any of your relatives own any firearms. And you cannot get service if you are either pro-life or pro-choice. You are not allowed to have any opinion about any political or religious issues.
And if they catch you attempting connections to slashdot.org, they will send a bunch of guys to your house with Uzis to "reeducate you."
Scary service, if you ask me.
--
"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
Personally, I'm tired all these analogies. A computer is not like a car. A host is not like a house. Ports are not like doors. Looking around someone's ${HOME} is not like looking around someone's home. Fuckin' deal with it.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
gee, and isp that want's to protect itself and it's users from hackers, spammers and thieves, that's just wrong. by the way, there is no mention of porno in the entire tos agreement, and nobody's going to let you set up a server or a commercial site, for $44 a month. Only a script kiddie, or pirate server would object to this tos agreement.
i've read it in depth... and well, there isn't anything in there that isn't "boilerplate"...
"Don't do anything illegal" - and if you do, they're not liable... as for entering your premises... that's for service/installation. And you can send "anonymous" e-mail... you just can't impersonate someone else.
I think if you check your ISP's AUP - you'll find a lot of the same stuff...
BlackNova Traders
For #2, did you read the rest of the item? About how they can access your house at any time AFTER THE AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED AND THE SERVICE IS TERMINATED. Oh... there's also that small part that says THEIR ACCESS CANNOT BE REVOKED AND IT WILL PERSIST ON THE PROPETY/LAND FOR ALL FUTURE OWNERS.
their website doesn't allow you to get any information on security, pricing, and other stuff.
This may be because they intend to 'fix' the prices to various regions. Much like the MPAA demands control of the product to maximize profits in all regions - Sprint may be attempting the same. Like airlines charging more/less for the same product depending on the venue through which you shop - this practice is immoral and probably illegal (i forget but it is in some way... although Im sure they practice this in a method that is a classic method to avoid it being technicall illegal - there is a law to prevent this behaviour if I recall - could any honest laywer* please explain. (in Canada at least)).
What a shamefull mess you Yanks have gotten yourselves into that Sprint would even attempt a TOS like this...
*Go ahead and reply below with your own punchline to that 'set-up'...
Actually, only involantary servitude is unconstitutional.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
It's pretty obvious that Xpresso85 didn't read his Sprint contract with a logical interpretation. The agreement is designed to not only protect the Sprint customer but Sprint itself. Portscanning is illegal if used to hack into a network as stated under Section 7 Acceptable Use Policy in 7.1.13. Scanning and Probing is illegal if used to hack into a network as stated under Section 7 Acceptable Use Policy in 7.1.14. Running game servers and web-hosting servers are in violation of the residential contract that you signed as outlined in Section 7 Acceptable Use Policy. Game servers and web-hosting are considered a LAN operation and are thus considered commercial business. Since you signed a RESIDENTIAL contract, you (not Sprint) are in direct violation of the contract and you are held liable. Any court would uphold this. Now why would any person want to upload a virus? And you would be in violation of ANY residential or commerical to download any virus. Using anonymous email. According to the contract, it is prohibited if you are sending email that generates unwanted solicitations (spamming) or using anonymous email or using an alias to send unwanted email (spam). This is covered by Section 7 Acceptable Use Policy under 7.1.9, 7.1.10, 1.1.12. Would you want to continue getting email from individuals that you can't reply to or block? This is just common sense. View Porno - well, no, the contract says nothing about not being able to view porno. It does state in Section 7 Acceptable Use Policy under subsection 7.1.2 that the use of this service cannot generate and conduct that would constitue a criminal offense. You can look at porn all day long as long as you don't publish porn without all the restrictions and consents that make it legal to publish. This subsection was also written to protect both you and Sprint from any "hate" crimes through vulgar and hateful propoganda that you may decide to generate. I believe in some states, it may be considered a federal offense. Why would you as a decent, upstanding citizen want to promote anything illegal anyway? Doesn't make logical sense. Sprint will enter your home only with your permission during business hours M-F as stated in the contract. These visits are coordinated with not only the field technician and customer but also a whole slew of account representatives and managment. Sprint would never arbitraily enter a personal residence and make itself at home. No, Sprint monitor bits and bytes 1's and 0's. They do not monitor your personal word documents. They will monitor the web sites you go to for survey purposes only. Didn't you read this contract? Sprint "shares" data - not personal information. Sprint thrives on competition. Spamming is not considered by any logical and hard-working individual as competition. I certainly don't want to spend all day and night deleting unwanted emails that I gave NO permission to the originator to send. If you don't want Sprint service, don't get Sprint service. Use two cans and a piece of string. You'll be much happier. Isabow
My Terms Of Service for my (UK) ISP forbid me from blesphaming.
I mean, honestly, what the hell is that?
And you bought service from them anyway? ...the mind boggles.
Hmm....that sounds like the best analogy for portscanning i've heard yet...
Portscanning is ringing the doorbell, possibly with the rude connotation of ringing the doorbell and running away before someone answers, but still only ringing the doorbell.
Any daemons running on the server could be compared to people you hired to answer one of your 64k doors. Most doors have a sign saying closed (ICMP port unreachable,) others are answered by various people with jobs like 'hand out flyers' (web server), 'let people in if they know the password' (ssh/telnet/etc.), or 'let people wander around this room and copy whatever they want from it' (anonymous ftp).
Despite the many of us that may have strong feelings on this "freedom" thing it is really in Sprint's best interest to do what they can to make money. They need to report good earnings back to investors just like any other public firm (especially with the recent drop in telecom). The real education needs to be provided to the common at home user that will have their rights taken away by such a blatent disregard for consumer rights. Sure geeks will stay away from Sprint, but that is such a small market it will not effect Sprint unless more is done to inform the rest of the population (99.9% of the population to be more accurate).
Bingeldac denies any responsibility for the
spelling and/or grammatical errors above.
This seems to be just barely legal. Enter my house if I'm portscanning? I keep a golf club in the closet (sandwedge) just for this sort of intrusion...
Can a company actually hope to enforce this? And with other broadband services around (cable is much cheaper) why would anybody even consider using this service ?
JB
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
But sir, I insist that the bathroom has no computers in it! Let me take care of nature's business in peace!
If the terms of agreement is what the original poster stated, then by accepting the contract you also accept those terms. Violation of those terms would place you in breech of contract and thus charges could be brought forth. However, I'm curious of whether they can actually montior you without being in violation of the protection of privacy act. In reality, a lawyer probably wrote all of that and most people wouldn't probably have noticed it till they violated it and lawyers came to their door. Sneaky lawyers aren't they?
Project: To Take Over The World
Project: To Take Over The World
Plan: To Rule The World
I guess Sprint wants to fail, it really sounds like they're sick and tired of making money.too bad, it is a shame to see such technology go to waste.Goodbye sprint,it was fun while it lasted!not.
The way it is phrased (read it again), it supposedly gives them the right to enter your house even long after you have terminated service with them, and nowhere does it say that the equipment they install has to be related to your service. "Hey, Mr. Jones, you aren't a customer anymore, and you don't have any of our equipment anymore, but in accordance with your contract with us, we have come to install this little widget on your roof." They'd probably not get away with it, but that is what the letter of the contract says.
The major problem with the contract is that it doesn't let you run servers of any kind: chat servers, game servers, FTP servers, whatever. And that is clearly spelled out. Read it yourself.
I read through the TOS (albeit rather quickly). I missed the part about "No Porn", in fact it did have this in there:
7.4 The Internet contains unedited materials that may be offensive or objectionable to you. You access these materials at your own risk. Sprint has no control over and accepts no responsibility for these materials. Customer may wish to utilize software designed to limit access to certain material on the Internet.
Which basically seems to say "Don't come to us if your kiddies are viewing saggytits.com on a regular basis." Not that I really care... Sprint recently cancelled their wireless broadband offering in the metro Detroit area, and I was never applicable for it in the first place.
-This sig intentionally left blank
It isn't "their" equipment. You buy the equipment as part of the signup. If you terminate your contract, you can throw it into the trash if you like. If you terminate your contract and owe them money, they should go through the standard legal procedures in case of unpaid bills, not carry out vigilante justice themselves.
As much as I disagree with some of the "activities" they are supposedly disallowing, I do not agree with their solution of supposedly "restricting" the actions themselves.
But, the most frightening part of this entire thing is the whole deal about "reserving the right" to enter your home, monitor you and share your personal info with other companies. Granted, the info sharing happens all the time. Go ahead, mail order any product and within two to three months you will be recieving comparable product mailings from dozens of companies. But the idea of a company that I sign a service contract with saying that they have the right to, at any time, walk into my house to "observe" my activities seems a bit unreasonable.
The real problem is that there are enough lawmakers that feel this should be allowed that it may not face much of a challenge if it were ever taken to court. And people are stupid enough that they are rushing forward with open arms towards policies like this in order to "protect the children". I fear the future. At one time I had such hopes. But things of this nature make it far too frightful.
I pray by the time I have children that I still have the right to raise them myself. But even a story such as this turns that idea into a silly dream. We must be stopped from corrupting our youth. Even if the child is our own, we must not "corrupt" them.
And another thing, who will define vulgar or hateful posts? Can I not troll slashdot using this service? Or can I not use usenet (a more vile and wretched hate-filled place you will not find on the net)? I just don't like the implications of the open-ended, "vulgar or hateful" type regulations. They either need to go all out defining vulgar and hateful, or the need to realize that they would need to hire an awful lot of people to police every user 24/7. Either way it seems ridiculous.
------------
available only in China, Cuba, and North Korea
That evil temptress will try anything to get people to use Sprint services. Boycott Sprint and Sela Ward. Do not be seduced by the devil's concubine.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I don't see any problem with port scanning in general. Port scanning doesn't mean someone is breaking into your computer. It may just mean I'm checking one of my own machines for security holes.
Many of the "legitimate" services eat up much more bandwidth. Sprint broadband uplink speed is 256k, while downlink is 1-5Mbps. Running servers even at full capacity is barely more than listening to high quality audio or video and it's less than running a VNC connection.
Well all TOSs that I've ever had for any of my ISPs say the same, but aside from the fact that no one ever abides by them, I haven't heard of n e one getting kicked. I assume its just a way of making us more responsible for using the content than they are for replying to it. (If that makes any sense?)
F4+80y +1++135
FatBoy Titties - (aren't I l33+
Shame on you for using TOS as a swear word.
;)
Those poor old Atari owners will be cursing in their graves
Showing my age I guess
I guess no more /. for those who sign up with this service, seeing as how /. has all sorts of articles that are pro-illegal activites ... DeCSS, Napster ...
...
We should lower the flag to half mast on this one
dave
For better or for worse, it's a free market. If you have a choice in providers, let them know that you will sign up with a provider that doesn't have such draconian terms of service. If they hear from a lot of people, they may change their TOS.
What a load of s**t!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Oh, I guess BB stands for Big Brother, not Broadband.
...most of it seems pretty reasonable and it seems like they're giving themselves a clear legal mandate to boot abusive users off the service.
/. overblown response, however stating in your policy that you disallow game servers (which is a big reason many people want broadband), is pathetic. If they want to disallow these things then they should run Quake Lithium, Quake3, UT, etc servers of their own. Games seem to drive much more of the industry than most of these corporate type seem to understand... Also some of the other prohibitions seem to come from the same sort of corporate disconnect as the game one.
Up until this point I can agree with you. When I was working for a start-up, we worded our eula so that we had fairly broad mandate to kick abusive/problem users. We did this while specifically allowing usage of portscaning and other measures.
Personally I'd love if providers started kicking port scanners off their system as it is irritating, and a complete waste of bandwidth... (clip) Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that. Go out at 2 in the morning and try all the door knobs in your neighbourhood and see what sort of treatment it gets you. "But I was only trying to improve security!"
Here is where you begin to come off like a M$-sheep in my eyes. Portscanning can be a very useful tool. Portscanning is your right according to the latest court precedent. And lastly, what is it with the stupid door handle analogy, it is a poor one at best.
You may as well say that every one who looks at camera layout in a bank or store is a would-be criminal. What about a person who checks out building layout, security guards attentiveness, etc before buying into a lease for their business? Are they also would be criminals? When I am consider doing business with an e-commerce site I always scan them. Always. Anyone that I am supposed to trust with my business, credit card numbers, bank account, etc I check out. Always. Going by the above logic I should listen to/read information by a companies' marketing department about how secure they are and blindly trust that they aren't as stupid as M$ is and not install patches, etc to their networked machines to protect my business/money/livelihood. This is the same sort of retarded thinking that I heard from an ISP owner I know. "As long as I keep my (unlicensed) Win 2k servers patched I am entirely secure, because M$ said so." He knows relativly nothing about security and know not much more about Win2k than the minumum required to run his business.
By the way I have not been burned by trusting a company with poor security, Have you? Are you sure that you won't be? How are you sure?
I would agree that much of their eula is to be expected, and understandable. Much of the reaction seems to be just standard
From the TOS:
The rest of the TOS, while somewhat harsh-sounding, appears to be fairly standard legalese, saying that you aren't allowed to use Sprint to break laws; the only bit that somewhat distressess me is the following. You are not allowed to
...but I suspect that this is merely to give them carte blanche to "kick ban" harrassing folk. Same with their policy of port scans and the like (as they probably don't want to have people contacting their sysadmins saying that there are script kiddies trying to break into their networks).
They also have provisions limiting bandwidth consumption and servers that you can run from home, but most broadband services limit those these days, especially by forcing lease refreshes every month or so (or sooner).
Yeah, it seems somewhat fascist, I'll agree. ...but it's broadband. It's not a T1 or even DSL. You get what you pay for, and from what I see, this isn't that bad.
I know their idea of "news" is a bit shaky to start with. but,crikey,did anyone actually read the thing?it's a pretty standard TOS and I don't see any prohibitions on downloading anything.
Great minds think alike,but,fools seldom differ.
Yes, the TOS sucks, but what about the benefits? - How fast is it exactly (they claim 50x) - is that 1.4MB? - What technology are they using? - What is installed in your house? Is it a dish, or an antenna. Where does it have to be, line of sight? - Where are they transmitting from - cell towers? What kind of bandwidth do they have going to the cell towers? - What density will this thing support? Does it have the same problems as cable modems - once all your neighbors get one will it slow down? - What would it take to set up a similar service with a better TOS?
Actually, I believe at least a couple courts have held that you can't. The author is correct, however, that there's nothing in the Constitution that expressly states that the right not to be enslaved is "nonwaivable" (i.e., you can't sell it or otherwise give it away), as opposed to the many other Constitutional rights which are generally agreed to be waivable.
Well here's a great example of corporate stupidity. Whose going to buy a personal broadband internet connection if they can't download the latest Chasey Lane video rip? Oh wait we could just encrypt the data we send over the network so they will never know. Also what exactly would the legitimate purpose of a port scan be? I can understand running a game server, or sharing a file, but portscanning?
A court would probably find that Gates couldn't show damages. (There is a classic contract law "hypothetical" along these lines: If you pay someone to build on your land a house so ugly you couldn't sell it, but instead they build you a nice, resellable-at-high-value house that you don't want, what are your damages? The consensus, I think, is that you're out of luck.)
Not exactly. Since you don't have a "right" to use Sprint's broadband service, anything goes. You still fall under the standard set of consumer protection and credit protection laws, however.
Similarly, many people with jobs have clauses in their contracts that restrict them from making statements about the company to the press. Since you have no "right" to a job, they can fire you for, technically, "exercising your right to free speech."
The biggest loophole seems to be that since the government (ie, "the people) regulate the airwaves, they could screw over Sprint for "not acting in the public interest".
-Dean
is that you thought you were being funny.. and you will probably get moderated up.
yikes.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
And in reply I'd say that if you weren't explicitly told it's none of your business and you're not welcome. If a house has many doors it isn't my right to check what they're for unless there's big signs welcoming me in. What about people scanning for backdoors : They're not just checking to see what they're for...they're looking for victims.
Is it wrong to go up to a house an check for open windows? Is it wrong to push that window a bit to see if it really is open? Is it wrong to stick your head inside the window and look around a bit, just to see what you can see (maybe you're a interior decorator looking for inspiration)?
Now let's say the owner comes home and finds you with your head in the window (or worse, you actually climbed through to see the other rooms in the house). But wait, don't call the authorities, you're just an interior decorator!
If it was really necessary for you to look around in that house, then you ring the doorbell. If the owner is home, maybe they'll allow inside and give you a tour. If not, you're out of luck.
Tell them what you think. Tell the sales department. I did. Thrazzle
Also, generally network providers depend on a balance between inbound and outbound traffic. It's easier to get peering with other networks if you're not only connecting to them to suck them dry, but also have routes to offer them to get their customers to some content. If the outbound traffic from consumer services goes up too much, this balance gets disturbed.
A last point is that people who install an actual server on a network (be it ftp, http or, lord help us, irc) will be more demanding of that network and thiss be bigger pain-in-the-asses than the average lusers. Drives supportcosts up, while helldesk morale plummets. Lose lose.
Are many TOS/AUPs used by many providers ridiculously anal? Perhaps so. From an ISP perspective I assure you that this is not evil-mindednes, but coldblooded self-protection. I can tell you from situations where we discontinued service to spammers that the really bad assholes out there will do anything to shoot holes into your reason for terminating then. If you make things too specific when setting up the AUP, these people are bound to circumvent that which you explicitly forbid and still get their net.abuse fix. That's why AUPs usually read like "If we do not like you, we will show you the door, as you fly through it to the other side". Because sometimes it is necessary to do just that.
It is ultimately an ISP's reputation that defines how far they can actually go when enforcing anything in such an AUP. Now if a spammer is a paying member of your ISP but circumvents abusing the ISP's mailservers for the actual spamruns (using a throwaway account elsewhere or using third party remailers or lord knows what the spammer tricks du jour are) and they know for sure that this one customer is in fact the spammer (because he consistently spams for the website he hosts at said ISP), but their AUP doesn't cover the exact circumstance under which the spammer operated, you can be sure that your ISP will not be popular and manages to end up RBLed up the wazoo. If, however, they deal with the abuser adequately, they get applauded by everyone, most probably including you.
Now if the same ISP were to, say, break into your house to check your nude photo archive of Nathalie Portman, and the press got a word of this, would you suspect this would do much good to ISPX on NASDAQ? I don't think so.
Now with bigger ISPs like sprint, this is entirely academic anyway. Find me a large telco ISP that actually reads and responds to its abuse-mail and I'll find you a pregnant moose that can dance the polka while reciting Goethe in Chinese.
HTH.Pi
--
This is a contract between two parties, namely:
Broadband Operations & Fast Hyperlinks from here on known as THE GUYS WHO TRACK YOUR PROXYLOGS.
and
{insert name here} from here on known as THE LUSER WITH NO LIFE.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm guessing that may not be the case here. We're talking wireless vs. dialup or point to point line for DSL type service. The FCC has some pretty strict regulations and fines for equipment that goes haywire and starts causing problems. I'm guessing one thing Sprint is accomplishing is assuring that they can get in and remove/repair equipment causing problems (let alone flooding their specific frequencies licensed). That said, it woul d seem the TOS, should you refuse access, leaves you the one liable for any damages, and that can amount to a lot more than just termination of your service. Wireless is a LOT different than having cable or dsl.
When I lived in college housing they tried to get me to pay for an entire room when my roomate moved out. But at the beginning of the year, I had specifically scratched that clause out and initialled it. When I was called to the housing office over the dispute, the Director of Housing whipped out his copy of the school's contract to see if it matched mine.
:)
He bitched, but didn't make me pay, and I know from talking to others that MANY others on campus DID have to pay in the same situation.
Granted, in this case they would probably cut off your service first and ask questions later. But of course talk to a lawyer if you are not convinced. The message is that no contract should be signed just because you want something and don't feel like reading all the clauses and are too lazy to negotiate it. I cant' tell you the number of times I have seen people screwed over by clauses of documents they sign, especially housing/lease agreements. Cross the silly crap out.
As a side note, when you go to the store to buy something, you are always entitled to negotiate the price of things. People, both consumers and employees, are just not used to doing it. There is absolutely no difference between buying a $100 million Cezzane oil painting and buying a can of tuna. We just accept the asked for price of the stuff on the shelf because haggling with the manager over everything would take waaaay too long and get you weird stares from people.
My only point here really is that any legal troubles you get from signing or entering into a contract are your own fault, because it is all negotiable.
This story prompted me to read through Earthlink's TOS since that is my ISP. On http://www.earthlink.com/about/policies/aupolicy.h tml it says "Pinging is expressly prohibited." Well I guess I've violated that one a few million times.
r mnt.htmlbecause it says "You may provide a hypertext link to our Web site on another Web site, provided that: the link must "point" to the URL 'http://www.earthlink.com' or 'www.earthlink.net' and not to any other pages within the Web site."
This post is also violating their Internet Access Agreement (http://www.earthlink.com/about/policies/accessag
Oh well!
I tried that before reading your post. it doesn't work.
Whenever there's packet loss on the net, you can be sure a faulty Sprint router is behind it. They've been a poor internet citizen since day 1. Too bad you can't kick a company or backbone off the network...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Many people rent cable modems or satelite dishes for broadband internet which often is expensive. It's not your regular 56k modem.
ISP terms of service today generally seem to be oriented toward forcing the customers to only use certain parts (sites) of the HTTP protocol (and POP/IMAP and SMTP). Sprint's TOS is an excellent example. You're not permitted to download virii/illegal material (FTP), run game servers (misc. protocols), run servers (part of HTTP, FTP, IRC, etc.), portscan (test for various protocols), spam (SMTP), post things that they don't agree with (NNTP, HTTP, etc.), "post, publish, transmit, reproduce, distribute or in any way exploit any information, software or other material obtained through Services for commercial purposes" (you can't use it to make money in *any* way), "upload, post, publish, reproduce, transmit or distribute in any way any component of the Services or derivative works, as Services are copyrighted as a collective work under U.S. copyright laws" (you even look at a copyrighted picture and you've violated the TOS), use anonymous mail (various HTTP sites, and POP/IMAP/SMTP servers), "make any unauthorized attempt to gain access to any account or computer resource not belonging to that user" (telnet), etc. While some of these things aren't strictly forbidden, "Sprint may take any action it deems appropriate without notice to protect the Services and its facilities for provision of the Services" (i.e. they can cut off your service for any reason, at any time).
But this is a line-of-site technology; it's not even portable (ie This oak tree is just gonna have to go).
There are better,portable, wireless highspeed technologies out there now.
Ok my karma is maxed out. When do I become Enlightened?
Mrs. Hacker:Please keep John Q away from temptation.
Sprint: Will do Mrs. Hacker.
In any case..., before you whiners whine about people posting this story, look at what persistence is doing for the religious right.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
= transmit (trns-mt, trnz-)
= v. tr.
= 5a.Electronics. To send (a signal), as by
= wire or radio.
=
= Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the = English Language, Third Edition
transmit is to send information, not receive it. the TOS never mentions anything about what is acceptable to download, only upload.
"7.1.3 post or transmit any information or software that contains a virus, trojan horse, worm or other harmful component;"
I have sprint broadband at work where we use a linux box to firewall and ipmasq 8 window boxes to the net. the thing i hate about sprint BB is that the latancy is terrible. I get on average 250+ ms to my first router outside my office and its typical to get at least 6% packet loss. It get worse at peak times. I have seen 450+ ms and over 10% packet loss to my first router. They say cause ping is low priority. BS! Oh and they dont support streaming. So if you cant get a real audio or mp3 stream to work cause your superfast connection cant keep a constant 40kbit/sec stream going, tuff cookies!
Glade i have Cox @home at home. @home is evil but its better then sprint!
Weren't you listening earlier when /. had the story about HR 46? Our dear old lovely Congress voted down an amendment to their little wiretap rider, which had the exact language of the 4th amendment to the Constitution. It was voted down by over 300 to 100 something.
This of course means that if the 4th amendment were thought up TODAY, it would never have been included in the Constitution or teh Bill of Rights.
A little tip: enforcement works 2 ways. Both enforcement of the government over its people, and enforcement of the people over the government; unfortunately, when one waxes the other wanes. When a government decides to stop believing in its old ideals, it is a short step from there to deciding to not obey them anymore, either. If they wouldn't vote for the 4th amendment, something tells me they'd gladly extirpate it if they could.
Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
I quote:
"[may not] post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations;"
Should I avoid saying anything that may hurt someones feelings?
-renderguy
"You can't portscan! No Porno?!?" Will they tell us what porno is ir do we make that judgment? (can someone tell me-is the catholic church behind this one?) "Upload or download viruses! No anonymous e-mail!" What will they do if you do? "Can't post anything vulgar or hateful!" Well that's sh*t I hate the Nazis! "You cant even encourage anything illegal"...I love DCSS and Napster! Will Napster be allowed? "They also reserve the right to enter your home or property, monitor your activities, and 'share' your personal info with other companies." Great a catholic priest will come WITH the FBI man and I will get arrested and get more time in purgatory... Well sounds good to me where can I sign up??
Here's the section that I guess would prohibit viewing porn:
7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations;
If you request a porn page, it's being transmitted by your request. Notice it's wrong if it violates any local law, not necessarily the one for where you live.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
"Note on Java Support: The software product may contain support for programs written in Java. Java technology is not fault tolerant and is not designed, manufactured, or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of Java technology could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage."
Dang, there goes my Java-enabled, Sprint-Internet-Connected, thermonuclear guidance system and AED (Automatic External Defibrillator). Because, technically, if the Java failed, which caused the AED to fail, and the Sprint user died, I would be denying him access. Right?
Gotta love it!
Random Musings
the next "Melissa" virus. After the script opens your address book and transmits itself to all of your buddies, you've just broadcast "information or software that contains a virus, trojan horse, worm or other harmful component"
Sales rep: We won't enforce that, never, ever, I swear! (while cleaning his desk to leave and never return)
So go ahead and sign, you were promised! The catch is that anything they say is irrelevant and not binding. But what you sign is.
I love this one:
7.1.18 violate the law or aid another in any unlawful act;
Break the speed limit, loose your internet connectivity.....
Kent
If you actually read the agreement, it says that the clause is "irrevocable" and survives termination of service. That is exactly what makes it so disturbing.
Oooh, my favorite part:
"7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations..."
Um, so in other words, you can't do a damn thing without potential intervention from the men in black (or whatever color the Spring boys wear). Or more exactly, you can do exactly nothing and still have them show up at your door. Sprint's invented a time machine and taken us to 1984...
In section 9.5:
"...SPRINT, ITS AFFILIATES OR ITS SUBCONTRACTORS WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES THAT RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE SERVICES OR TO ACCESS THE INTERNET..."
That basically means Sprint isn't responsible... for anything. So much for tech support.
The No-Virus flag is an option that has been available in MS Internet Explorer since 4.02b3. Unfortunately it also disables all Windows updates so you don't see Microsoft pushing it too hard.
011001110110110001100101011011100110001001101111
Note these two terms: 7.1.7 remove or alter copyright management information including, without limitation, name or identification information of the author or owner, copyright note or terms & conditions for use of a work; 7.1.8 avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate or circumvent by any means, any process or system such as copy protection systems that are intended to protect the rights of a copyright owner;
Shut up and count your blessings that you live in America. Other countries have a lot more to worry about than if their PRECIOUS WIRELESS BROADBAND service Terms of Service allows the provider more liberties than the average customer would like them to have. In short, be glad you have that ham sandwich and can of Mountain Dew to consume while you type your whiny plea of loss of freedom. I'm sure some hungry, overworked and underpayed Taiwanese kid wouldn't think twice about kicking you in the back of the neck for your job and lifestyle :P
-Rylfaeth
Also:
Would that include using my version of Sendmail to send email to the internet rather than their outgoing SMTP server?"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
I reserve the right to defend my home by any legal means I see fit from unwanted intruders. This includes but is not limited to firing upon Sprint employees who feel they can somehow design and enforce a TOS that gives them free reign over my property if they appear on said property without my permission.
Have fun, Sprint. You would be wise to enforce that insane part of your TOS in an area where citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves though (NY, DC, etc)
:)
Finkployd
IANAL, but doesn't section 7.1.1 contradict most of the rest of section 7.1? 7.1.1 says "You may not hinder or restrict another user's access to the Internet." Then the rest of section 7.1.* restricts access to the Internet. Looks like no matter what you do they could cite you for breach of contract.
You install censorware to block posting/transmitting of obscene material, in support of 7.1.2, so you're good there, but you've restricted some else's access so you're in violation of 7.1.1.
Yes I see that 7.1.1 applies to restricting other users, and the rest of 7.1.* applies to you, so I think there is no direct contradiction, but still....
eric
>7. ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
>7.1 When using the Service, you may not:
>7.1.1 restrict or inhibit any other user from
>using the Internet;
Well, slap my ass - doesn't going on the internet increase the traffic (especially locally) and therefore by definition inhibit the others from using the internet? (or is that just me and my cable modem...?)
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
They forgot a boilerplate item I'm accustomed to seeing:
You may laugh, but that's taken directly from the Terms of Service for AT&T Canada (section 5.e).
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
From the TOS [you may not]post, publish, transmit, reproduce, distribute or in any way exploit any information, software or other material obtained through Services for commercial purposes What? I mean I'm not an native english speaker so I might get something wrong here but that paragraph just seems ridicilous and quite over the top.
Still I like the part about not downloaded viruses
I just can imagine the support calls right now:
USER:Ummm, my computer behaves kinda strange and Mcafee says I got a virus, and yeah some files are missing
TechSupport: Bad luck pal, I'm terminating your account right now
"Mommy, mommy! The garbage man is here!" "Well, tell him we don't want any!" -- Groucho Marx
The Store I work at has Sprint and the service is good. But they stopped issuing the service for home use cause "The signal is too weak" I signed up for the service, and was called the day the tech was to come out and install the dish and was told that they are canceling my contract. If you what there service don't be surprized if they cancel on you too.
I don't know about "forfeit": the ordinary expression is that one "waives" one's rights.
Some constitutional rights are clearly waivable. For example, if you want to sign an endorsement contract with Nike, Nike will likely require that you not publicly criticize their products and not endorse competing products, and such an agreement would be perfectly legal notwithstanding your First Amendment right to do those things. Similarly but more seriously, if you confess to a crime (either outside of police custody or after being advised of your Miranda rights), you waive your constitutional right to remain silent.
Other constitutional rights are nonwaivable. You can't, for instance, waive your right not to be enslaved or your right not to be drawn and quartered.
I've had Sprint BB Direct in Tucson since Oct., and it has been quite fast (comparable to lightly loaded Cox@Home segments). We've got the business version though, its TOS isn't quite as nasty (no servers, can explicitly run NAT on each IP you want though :-)
From his paradise no one shall ever evict us. --David Hilbert, defending Cantor's set theory
No, the SPRINT TOS doesn't violate the bill of rights or the constitution, but it does indeed violate several fderal laws.
In response, all the hookers in every big city across america have added a TOS to their services
1. AID's test first
2. Full-Body condoms required
3. You must pull-out
4. no kinky sex acts
5. you pre-pay using a smart card or pay pal
And you thought Sprint was bad? LOL
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Many people may do that with other services, but with Sprint Broadband, you buy the equipment.
...the minute competitors start muscling in and offer better deals and service. It's no different than from when Ma Bell used to frown upon people actually having a phone extension without paying for it, or not renting a phone from them and buying in instead. That attitude went the way of the CP/M user with competition.
Come on, Sprint. Kick 'em off and enforce your normal TOS!
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I ain't no lawyer, but I suspect your friend has been sniffing too much gunpowder. This is a private contract, not a government regulation. In exchange for subscribing to their service, you agree to their terms of service. After all, you could view Non-Disclosure Agreements as a restriction of one's First Amendment rights - that doesn't make them illegal.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
And E-trade is definately out of the question...
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
post or transmit any information or software that contains a virus, trojan horse, worm or other harmful component;
The interprtation of this in the origonal piece is misleading. The above is taken from the agreement and nowhere does it say 'download'. It says 'post or transmit' which is not the same as download. However, there is a difference between knowingly and unknowingly transmitting a virus.
What really gets me is that they prevent "TELNET" and "FTP". They're essentially telling us we can't use UNIX unless we shut down every single service on it, and, after that, you might as well be using a Windoze box...
However, I try to telnet into my firewall/server occasionally. Why? They say no "TELNET". Try it! Type "TELNET" at the command prompt. What happens? "TELNET: Command not found." I'm not using TELNET, I'm using telnet. :)
They can challenge us, yell at us for violating their TOS. But, truthfully, it wouldn't stand up court. It's not written in legal babble -- it's normal gibberish. I have to wonder if THEY understood what they were writing... If strictly interpreted, you can't use a computer with their service. (It depends on your interpretation of "server" -- my desktop computer is a server. FTP, telnet, HTTP, mail... Who connects to it? Me. From where? It. I very rarely connect to my desktop computer remotely. But it's still a server.)
Okay, I'm done. Sorry for my rant. :)
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Crap! No more a.b.p.e.* posts from me. Poeple the WORST this you can ever do is post on usenet with a REAL email adress. Can you say.... SPAM BAIT???
People scan it to build spam lists (wouldnt be surprised if sprint is doing it, and hence that clause in the TOS).
I don't mean to stand up for a company that's behaving like a bunch of assholes, but is it possible that Sprint has been forced to put out a TOS like this? Every time congress wants to do something nasty to internet freedom, they go after the ISP's (Carnivore hooks into an ISP, and one of the decency acts made ISP's liable). It may be that Sprint isn't trying to limit our freedom for their own purposes, just that they're trying to make sure that if someone sets up a kiddie pr0n server using their broadband, they can point to the TOS and say they specifically had a policy against it, sparing them gov't headaches.
--Brogdon
This tagline is umop apisdn.
Oh, so just because someone else is stupid enough to live in a place that sucks, WE have to shut up while screaming liberals take away our freedoms saying "well, they have it much worse in bla bla third world land."
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
While I think they've gone a bit too far (though it seems to be primarily written to legally cover their own ass for instances where countries like France try to shoot the messenger) most of it seems pretty reasonable and it seems like they're giving themselves a clear legal mandate to boot abusive users off the service. Personally I'd love if providers started kicking port scanners off their system as it is irritating, and a complete waste of bandwidth, for thousands of little script kiddies to sit there doing nmap -p 1-55000 24.0.0.0/32 all day. Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that. Go out at 2 in the morning and try all the door knobs in your neighbourhood and see what sort of treatment it gets you. "But I was only trying to improve security!".
As far as the limitations on hosting it sounds very similar to most @Home TOS agreements which basically say you can't run servers for anything. Of course they're not really trying to prohibit that (and indeed they can easily block incoming port 80, etc., but they don't), they're just giving themself legal recourse. The prices that people are paying is based upon average, amateur fair use and when someone sets up a 24/7 Napster server alongside their FTP server, website, IRC server, etc., they begin unfairly consuming an inordinate and completely financially unjustified amount of bandwidth. Compare the price of an unmetered T1 which technically has less bandwidth than my cable modem. Is someone stupid to pay that much more? Not at all. One is meant to be saturated with services, the other is financially created as a burst service for the Average Joe.
The Bill of Rights describes restrictions on the Federal Government's power -- not individuals and not corporations.
However, the Bill of Rights governs actions by the Federal Government and those of the Several States. Private transactions between lawfully competent individuals and or/organizations aren't generally covered. Technically, you COULD sign yourself into slavery. But outside of most software EULAs, that's not common either. . .[g]
"That's one service I won't be getting anytime in the near future!"
...or the distant future for that matter.
.
Given the lack of trustworthyness of some companies and individuals, this is not unreasonable.
As an old friend of mine once said, when you see a psycho two things can be going on. Either the psycho really is psycho, or their enviroment is psycho, and they as just trying to cope.
This certainly applies to work environments, as we all know. And it goes deeper.
Over the past few years many companies have down sized, eliminating many levels of managers. These have since gone off and retired, or gone into other fields of activity, like programming, dot coms, etc. They will not go back. The very extreme example of this are overseas contractors who come to the US, ignorant of US Law, culture, and mores. They are sometimes hired by pointy haired bosses to do the things that no decent manager would do, as far as treatment of employees, customer service, etc goes.
We now come full circle, imagining this kind of manager combined with this kind of TOS agreement. It is very easy to run screaming into the hills. After all, this is for "our benefit". It is even conceivable that someone like this wrote this TOS Agreement.
Is this likely? I'm am not sure. I so much want to give people the benefit of the doubt.
But Murphy's Law certainly applies here.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
You're a lawyer?
We are Sprint: Your rights end where ours... no, strike that. Your rights end. Thats enough.
So far they haven't complained about the stuff I'm running, and I doubt the will. It takes quite a bit of effort to police this stuff.
I was a beta tester for a similar service in Austin, TX from a company called Nobell. Their prices have gone up since they are no longer beta testing but I still would highly recommend them.
Anyway, the Sprint BBD is fast and reliable. The signal is only a couple of watts I would guess judging on the distance to the tower I'm pointing to (I have LOS to a hill in San Bruno). If anyone has questions about the service or you are contemplating getting it, email me and I'll explain wireless broadband to ya.
Really?
Just because privacy isn't mentioned in the US Constitution doesn't mean it isn't there.
James
In all seriousness, I would be interested in alternatives to the "mainstream" broadband providers...
Anyway... My point. I do not want a filtering ISP. They might start by filtering out known viruses, but if I write a program named "Melissa.exe" and send it to my girlfriend named "Melissa", would they delete my message and try to sue me?
________________________________________________
suwain_2
USD$44 seems rather a lot. What kind of speed are these guys offering?
I'm paying CDN$39.99 ($29 for service + $10 modem rental) for my DSL. That's about USD$26 ($19 if you already own a modem.) I get a 1mbs throughput. My throughput is consistent and reliable (unlike the local @Home offering). Once passed the telephone people, tech support is very good and very fast. Can Spring claim the same?
There are a large number of blatant inaccuracies in the summary postedon slashdot - makes me wonder if anyone even bothered reading the TOS before whinging?
(1) There is NOTHING in the TOS to stop you using anon email - you may not impersonate OTHERS, but it does not stop you using anoon email.
(2) "Sprint can access your house at any time"?? No, Sprint,like almost every other provider of services (inc phone, gas, electricity, etc) have the right to access your premisis DURINGNORMAL WORKING HOURS in order to install, remove, upgrade or repair the equipoment - certainly not, as some paranoid posters would have you believe, to spy on you! What they aresaying is that you have to let them in, you can't tell them to piss off if they come to remove the equipment, nor can you tell them to go away if they come to install, for example. Nope, nothing there about them having the right to breakin, though. More paranoia from those not reading the post.
(3) Their list of stuff you can't send, if you READ IT PROPERLY, explains that wehat they are saying is that you can't do anything illegal. They even SAY THAT. How hard is that to understand, hmm? Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me - if they DIDN'T say you can't do that, then they have no legal means to kick you off if you break the law.
I REALLY wish people woudl read posts before flaming away - a good 50% of the posts so far are rendered irrelevant if you read the original TOS!!!
--
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
Why isn't there the humor foot for this article? This is funny. Scary too. But mostly funny. Mostly funny because they almost deffinately will not enforce their TOS. Despite how stupid their lawers obviously are, their PR department probably won't let them get all the bad press that enforcing this would entail..
You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely.
there are 3 words that strike fear into the heart of any user - 'Acceptable Use Policy'
You do know that there is no such thing, right?
Several times I've gotten "Updates" from them (ads for new services, usually). I typically delete them, but I've been tempted to forward the message to "abuse" at their domain. Yes, report my ISP to my ISP for spamming me. And if that doesn't work (if they don't reply "We're very sorry about that. We have deleted our account and are considering a lawsuit against ourselves."), I'm somewhat tempted to report them to whoever provides their Internet service... (You don't really think that they have the know-how to manage an OC-48 or something, do you?! The very first week they installed our cable modem, it was down for days -- while they replaced a T1 line with a DSL line. So my cable modem ultimately leads to a DSL line... Figures.)
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suwain_2
Someone want to show me where they say you can't view porn or use anonymous e-mail? I missed both of those. I see where you can't impersonate someone else, or forge headers/identifying information, but I don't believe anon e-mail falls under any of those categories.
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
I am. In order to actually file claims against you, and recover on them, Sprint would need to prove not only that you breached the agreement (i.e., violated the terms of service), but also that your breach damaged Sprint in some way. In most instances, it wouldn't be worth it to file suit, because it would cost far more to litigate the claims than Sprint could ever hope to recover. Basically, the TOS is there to cover their ass if they terminate service - - if you challenge the termination, they can just point to the contract and say you violated it.
read the nifty "Enter your house" bit.. it's really scary.. "10.16 You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns." what this means is.. that your giving up your home to $print or any one of their subcontractors.. FOREVER.. re-read that last line.. in fact, anyone who buys your home after you sell it are now under the agreement.. "will run with the land".. not sure if this is legal in all states.. i'm never using $print again..
i hate microsoft.
Remember, all contracts are negotiable. A lot of people don't realize this. I almost never sign boilerplate TOS or leases, or anything else without making changes. Each TOS they sign is an individual contract. If you don't like something, scratch it out and initial it, and maybe even date it. Scratch out the whole freakin' contract if you want.
:)
When it comes time for them to accept it, either they will just as a matter of procedure, or they will call you and ask what the changes are. You can then negotiate with an agent of the company (like a manager) about the changes. But if they just accept it and file it away without looking at it, then set up and install your service, you are golden. If something happens months later you can go back to the modified contract that you both have a copy of as proof that you didn't agree to certain things.
I have done this dozens of times, from housing contracts with my college, to DSL service, to gas service, to apartment leases, to even ski lift ticket agreements and parachute jump liability waivers.
Don't be fooled. Absolutely everything is negotiable. This is one of those really sweet things about our legal system that everyone should learn. INAL, but check with one and they will tell you this.
You buy the equipment but if you fail to pay the termination fee (of $299) you down't own the equipment. In other words, you don't actually own the equipment, you are borrowing it. This claus allows them, however, to refute any repair or service to the device (typically if you lease or loan the equipment, repairs and replacements are gratis).
Another:
In other words: don't expect any kind of refunds for any kind of downtime.
Everything else seems pretty standard: you, the client, can't do anything except browse their homepage and they aren't required to enforce anything. Really, its all the same as everyone elses... until...
Hrmm.. I've never seen "as available" basis before. I think they've learned from the cable companies...
Nice one.. charge 'em for tech-support.. lower the monthly bill then please.
What the FUCK is that? I have never seen anything like this before. And it will survive termination or cancellation of the agreement AND, even if you move, they can still enter the premesis. I would really like to see this one get tested. That can't be right, not at all. They _should_ have reasonable access during scheduled appointments but I don't want some sprint dork on my porch demanding entry. That is unfair and plain wrong.
Oh well, maybe it's just me... But at least I know I'm not signing up for sprint...
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Lets have contest to see who can simulaneously violate all 21 elements of section 7.1?
:-)
I'm thinking along the lines of a virus that scans the affected system's disks, replaces the word `copyright' with `screwyou!' and forwards the files to other instances of itself on other afflicted machines. It then emails the machine owner with a forged From address and offers to remove itself if they make a payment in a particular Paypal account.
That covers all but two of the 21.
Guy's email address is Xpresso85@aol.com...that says it all.
no portscan : great no probe : great no webservers : we've seen it before... no viruses : great no anonymous e-mail : what would you need that for ? To send those viruses ? no porno : oh well... ok, maybe not good no vulgar or hateful stuff : freedom of speech ? no encouraging of illegal stuff : sure... nice rule right to enter home and monitor activities : BAD STUFF ! share information : BAD STUFF no spam : PERFECT !
Then just do what I do, put in your favorite 80s/90s show!!!
9 0 2 1 0
Woo hoo.
--Remove chicken to e-mail
You can not portscan, probe
;-)
.jpg .gif etc that comes through their service...it would waste everyone's time and resources to do this since there is no way to tell if a file is pr0n or not through automated means...basically you would have to visually inspect each file which would be rather stupid anyway. I figure this is here to be able to kick the kiddie pr0n freaks off if they're discovered.
:-)
Uh...that's a good thing most sites will come down on you pretty hard if you are portscanning them...which you have no business doing anyway.
run game or Webservers of any kind
Well you can probably get away with running apache or something but I doubt they want you running a dot.com from their service
upload or download viruses, use anonymous e-mail
Well on the first point you shouldn't do that dum dum. If you really want to be uploading virii to plague mankind get an aol account.
view porno, post anything vulgar or hateful, you cant even encourage anything illegal.
If the first point is true then that's bad though I doubt that's true or possible to really monitor without looking at every
The hate stuff well again they could search for things like "the n word" and what not but again I doubt they'll do this...and encouraging illegal activity is against the law anyway as far as I'm aware...encouraging someone to go kill someone usually gets you in trouble...I could be wrong about this though...can someone help me out here?
Lastly, they restrict you from sending out spam,
Well good if you want to send out spam buddy then you don't deserve to be in the human community let alone the internet one...
They also reserve the right to enter your home or property, monitor your activities, and "share" your personal info with other companies.
Well, your phone company has the right to enter your home, so does your electric company, etc. The difference here is if you don't want the sprint people in your house then you cancel your service...somehow I doubt they're gonna want to come over for tea four nights a week. As far as sharing goes yeah that stinks but that's life if you don't like it complain to them and don't use it...just because a service is available doesn't mean you have to use it
Jon