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Which IT Certifications for Specific IT Jobs?
outlander78 asks: "There have been several questions posted recently (Landing a job, College or Career? to list a few) discussing education and job searching. I have just completed a BSc Computer Science, and have 2 years of co-op experience. This is apparently not enough, as I have yet to get a single interview, despite many carefully written letters and resume submissions to job postings. I read here that a degree with certifications was a good combination, so now I need to know - which certifications are best for job seekers? Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue, since I need any job at this point, and enjoy most computer-related jobs - please, suggest whatever certifications you are hiring for or were hired because of."
Basically, all companies require are skilled people. Just show them what you know, certificates are for those who don't know anything =)
The supply of tech professionals for operations, non-development, is far outpaced by the demand. Right now it is simply a buyer's market. What does that mean for folks who hire:
1) We can demand experience. We don't have to take the time to train someone and get them up to speed.
2) We don't have to offer the salaries and benefits we did two years ago.
3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.
The other fact you need to face is the best way to secure employment is not through classifieds and monster.com, but personal contact with people in the field. Join user groups, go to vendor tech demos and start meeting people.
Good luck.
I don't know how much certifications really help, except to show that you have "experiance." Your two years of co-op should have counted for a good bit. Maybe the area in which you are looking for work is just really tight, and they need someone with a bit more experiance. Have you tried looking for a job somewhere that was less crowded?
If you can't find a job with 2 years Exp and a BSC in your local area perhaps it is time you considered moving somewhere else?
Unless you're applying to jobs that are no entry level you should not have problems finding a job.
Heh, certs arnt the way to go, and unfortunatly the best recomendation i have for you is experiance. Ive been in the field for 8 years now doing this and that (Programming, Sys admin, Consulting, Helldesk, etc...) and have found that nothing beats time under your belt. I only have 2 of my 4 years finished for my BSCS, and i only have one cert (Stupid aironet wireless engineer before they were bought out by cisco) so certs and school arnt the only things that employers are looking for. Know your shit, and know it well and all will be good :)
I will bend your mind with my spoon
I don't think I've ever been asked for any certifications during interviews. I haven't seen many job postings in which certification was even mentioned, much less required. This was all sysadmin work.
Maybe you should just work on your resume a little more?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I must admit now that I cannot add much to help you, except that the story sounds familiar. I also go to a school with a co-op program, and a lot of CS/ECE related majors are having trouble getting jobs, including with the people they worked for on co-op. A good many are sticking around for an extra couple years and getting their Master's before trying the job market again.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
I also have a BSCS but I went and got a CCIE because I liked the hardware side of the field. (and couldn't code my way out of a box.) With those 2 you should be able to work at any shop with some competence.
Oh, wait, this wasn't one of the damn polls...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
get an interview but will not get you a job. The answer to your question is that you need certs for which you have experience and which you can back up with knowledge that goes above and beyond what is needed to get the cert. Also you need to know who is hiring in your area. For example to get my current job I had a lot of experience with firewalls in general and I know a firm in my area which has *very* good reasons to be paranoid where hiring a networking guy. I also have a bunch of networking experience. I found out through a friend that they use Checkpoint based firewalls. So I downloaded a Checkpoint demo got a book spent some time on it and got a CCSA. Combined with my background that set me apart from the crowd enough to get the job. :) Do your homework and try to do something you have a good background in and it should work. Also just a note a good recuriter is worth their weight in gold. Many will say I'm wrong and YMMV but recuriters have worked wonders for me.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Your real problem is that the economy is in the tank, so you are competing with people with at least as much education and more experience. This happened to me back in '91 when I finished by B.S.
Keep at it, you'll find something eventually.
Most IT certifications are manufacturer specific, meaning if you work with Cisco gear you get the Cisco certs. Very few cover an idea or a broad technology. So, a Network Engineer would get the Cisco cert since they use the equipment.
The problem is that people run out and get these certs without ever using the software/equipment and expect to get hired using it. It doesn't work that way. You get experience some where and then get the cert to expand on it. Experience first, then certs. A Cisco cert without router time is worthless.
I'm getting very tired of certifications. I know too many "certified" people who have NO EXPERIENCE! They know all about how it's supposed to work, but can't fix it when it breaks. I'm tired of it! Get me somebody who has a true interest in computing, not just paper credentials and making money.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
I've recently graduated College (MIS), no certificates. Looking over my history, I have never gotten a job without knowing someone.
Often times its not what you know, but who you know and knowing things is just a benefit.
The demand for certs in the industry just shows me how ignorant the industry is. You don't know how many job postings I see asking for certs that don't even exist, like the one I saw the other day wishing to hire a Cisco Certified Systems Engineer(I kid you not). I also can't stand seeing job offers that would rather have a college degree than any experience. We just hired an MIS graduate as a network tech that had to be shown the difference between a router and switch on his first day.
If you want to know what certs will really help you, get your CCNA, the new Cisco cert that covers voice over IP, some project planning cert, and maybe pursue your Six Sigma belts if you're in the high level industry.
Hope this helped.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
i don't really have a comment about the certifications...cause i don't really have any myself...although any Java 2 certifications look pretty good (atleast in the line of software consulting that i do)...
in any case, the job market right now sucks, (especially for tech people), and has sucked since late 2001...when i was searching for a job my senior year of college (2001-02) i saw the end of the boom where computer science majors could write their own blank check right away out of school...actually, early in my senior year i signed on with an internet consulting company in nyc for $70K...nice...atleast i thought so...as 2002, came, the economy was even more in the down turn, and a lot of companies started revoking their offers to college graduates (including mine)...so, to make a long story short, i graduated without a job...i ended up having to take an internship with a smaller software consulting company for the summer...but they eventually hired me in Septmber, and i enjoy my job very much...
i guess my point is not to worry if you don't have a job right away...the job climate sucks right now...but computers and the internet aren't going anywhere (duh)...
in any case, it's better to not have a job and be able to look for work, then to sign on with a company and have them keep pushing back their start date...i have friends from school who graduated with me in june of 2001 and went to work with big consulting companies like Accenture...they just recently (Jan or Feb) started...true, Accenture did throw them a little bit of money before hand, but i had a good 6 or 7 months of work experience in before they even started...
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
I go to collage for CS and there are many, many, MANY poeple in my class(s) that know absolutely nothing about CS exept what is in the books. This is a problem because they get better grades than most of the people that do know computers for real. Now companies think grades are important and say that you need a AD or 2yrs exp to get a job. It seems like you shouldn't have a problem since you have both.
Companies like to see such trivial things as pieces of paper because it makes them feel good to know they can brag paper to someone else. The like the Micro$oft certs, A+ garbage etc. Anything they don't uderstand is a plus too.
-Tolerate my intolerance
Depending on where you live, nothing you do will make a bit of difference. No internship or certification can compete with someone with years of experience forced into an entry level job to pay the mortgage.
What can I say, recessions suck. The only thing worse is recessions that politicians are bending over backwards to deny exist. (E.g., our governor says that we're past the worst of it, the economy is picking up... and a few pages into the paper the person in charge of the unemployment compensation/job matching agency admits that they're still overwhelmed by the unprecedented demand from thousands of people new to the system.)
P.S., I started out in similar (but localized) conditions. A major employer announced massive layoffs, and suddenly I was competing against people with years of experience. I found a job at about 2/3 of what I was discussing weeks earlier, and the entire organization was pathological. But it was a job and where they saw me putting in lots of unpaid overtime, I saw squeezing a year of experience into 6 months. Just keep repeating "this too shall pass."
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
In my experience, sending letters and resumes to job postings is a difficult route, regadless of your certifications or degrees. The best way to get any job is through a friend (or a friend of a friend). If you can't find a job that way, at least try and call the companies that you are mailing to. Letters and email are impersonal and easy to turn down.
To the extent that certifications act as a marker for a person's curosity, desire to learn, and humbleness in the face of the unknown, I will take them into account. However, I would rather have an English Lit major with zero technical background who can solve an unfamiliar problem from scratch than a 3 month/employer guy with a bag full of paper certifications.
To the extent that I consider certifications at all, I will look in order at Cisco certs (past the CNA), Novell CNE or Master CNE, Pine Mountain Group network analyst certs, a broad background in Unix, and of course any professional engineer certs.
But for what kind of job, you ask? Remember, I don't match up specific certs to my current position needs. I have never seen a person with a deep knowledge of Netware have any problem picking up what he needs to know about NT, but I have certainly seen the person with 38 Microsoft certs be unable to figure out how to configure a 2-router Cisco network.
My 0.02.
sPh
...for you would be:
1) Look at your (2 yrs coop) experience and what products/technologies you learned and/or liked.
2) Find a certification exam or exam "track" based upon those products/techs and get started.
For me to become an design level enterprise infrastructure consultant and instructor for the MS platform, it was appropriate to get my MCSE and MCT certs. I also find that some people do not need formal class training; self study can suffice (books, etc).
this is a left handed sig
I guess I have been really lucky.
I landed a job before I finished Polytech, (when I was an Electronics Tech), I then managaed to get a low level Linux/NT admin role for a small company. Moving on from there has been the hard part. I have done Linux cert, and have started a BSc and found it really hard to get the position I am about to move into. This was gained by knowing people on the inside.
From personal experience Oracle is probably the best industry cert in terms of "employability". I can't say what the certification is like I have never done it.
On another note a friend was having a similar problem just recently. Finished degree, and couldn't get a job. He was on a benefit and the NZ Govt. paid for his J2EE cert that he did while on the benefit. Landed a job not long after.
If you want a job do the one with the most industry cred and later do the one you enjoy. Please the employer to get the foot in, then work towards doing what you enjoy.
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The Certificate of Completion of Studies from Hamburger University in Oak Brook, Ill. It's your ticket to a crew member job (and the possibility of an eventual promotion to shift leader) in any McDonald's anywhere in the country.
Enjoy the recession, and thank you for participating in the overstaffed tech sector. It has been a pleasure taking your tuition money.
A fairly good overview/jump point for the major certifications is here and some info about how much they add to your paycheck is here...
Seriously -- A certificate only tells me what questions to start asking. It's sort of like that college question a few days ago: I don't want people who know things; I want people who can think and learn things.
You might be better off spending some time studying on your own and doing a free project of some sort for a local charity or school. It's something you can put on your resume and build up a bit rather than just one line of questionable value... and good for the community as well.
Its strange that certifications never took off here. The ONLY benefit i see from certifications is from companies that can join partner programs from software companies. Joining Microsoft partner program is a great way to save on licensing costs, they give you a ton for free for signing up. I say its strange here because in India, where we have an office, everyone and their Mom has certifications. We will not even interview people over there without certifications. The problem... some of the people know nothing. And by nothing i mean absolutely nothing. We had 1 guy with a ton of ASP certications that could not do anything... The only certification i have ever heard is possibly worth it is the project management certification. Other than that if i see a MCSE certification i wonder if something is wrong with the guy for wasting so much time and money. Forget the certifications. Create some nice webpages and applicatoin demos. Network a ton. Then network more and you will be all set.
Statistically, 10% of hirings are initiated with blind mailings. The rest all begin with networking. So when you are looking for a job, spend 10% of your time revising your resume and sending it to good targets, and spend the rest of the time following down leads in your personal network.
This is how I landed a job at a major Fortune 500 corporation. Basically, I had administered a high-latency gigabit-class network of Mac III's in school in the late 80's. This was top-of-the-line research stuff back then, though it sure looks antique today. Long story short, my vice admin's older brother married the daughter of a major figure in the Juarez prawn industry, and I got my foot in the door. Now I'm pulling 7 figures with a staff of 72, with nowhere to go but up. So all those guys you sorta got along with in school? Keep the numbers, man. Even when you land a job, you never know when you'll be looking again.
Good luck.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
I have considered many times that i should get my some Certs or get a degree, but with my experience I've never needed them. It would only be for self-satisfaction. I work with people that have everything from A+ to a MCSE, CCNE, and MCNE. I make just as much and more in some cases as them.
perl -e s++=END;++y(;-P)}s?C++=;
I have got a couple of job offers atleast partially because of my CISSP certificate (Certified Information Systems Security Professional). But then again, you are not supposed to get this certificate without an existing job-record, so it might be not interesting for you - but checkout the url.
I have heard also some other people saying that it is a good bonus - and it is actually a requirement for some positions. And it does not harm you to have that in your pocket even though your work is not stricly related to information security. Security is (or should be) still a crucial piece in any software.
But personally, I don't believe a certificate is a shortcut for getting a job. It might work as an aggregate after you got your first job. Instead, I believe the solution is hard work - have a CD/floppy or whatever loaded with software made by you as hobby with you when you go to a job interview. I have raised thumbs up many times because of the candidate's participation in some OSS project or similar.
If you want to seperate yourself from everyone else in the field. Take some speech classes. It looks to me that you have the education requirements and work history (as much as can be expected fresh out of school). If you want to set yourself apart show them that you have effective communication skills and can discuss, in an understandable manner, complex technical thingies!!! You will be working with hoards of dumb asses that do not understand technology and for the most part your fellow classmates are coming out of school with no social skills what so ever. Prepare yourself for the first interview you get by practicing these key trades and then see if you get a job. I bet it will work.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
IT Certifications doen't mean much, the only time I'll even consider one is if it was earned while working on that particular area. Example, I hired a person who had been working in software test (on a PC based product) but took Microsoft certification courses on the side and worked her way into doing some PC support. The certification gave her some knowledge but I was far more impressed by her drive and experience she gained while working on that certificaiton.
Sitting in a classroom, no mater how hands on, doesn't give you problem solving expereince. Save your money.
Your problem can be summarized in three words:
The Economy Sucks.
More experienced, more certified, more desperate (i.e. supporting families) people are having a hard time finding IT jobs right now.
Another post suggests moving your location. Do some research and figure out where there's a relative lack of demand and target that area. Or live in your parents basement.
Or did somebody change the date for the monthly /.?
'which cert' question on
Anonymous posts are filtered.
Right now it doesn't seem to mean a lot to employers if you're certified or not. All they want is experience. I also just graduated with a BS in Comp Sci, have 5 years of internship experience with a real business, and I have yet to get even a single interview set up. My currently employer even has me on a temporary basis until they can decide to start hiring again for full-time positions.
Back to the topic, I don't think the certification is that important, or at least not as much as it was in years past. I remember there was a demand for it, mainly since the experienced workers were employed, and the ones seeking jobs were a bit too green. Now the experienced people are the ones in the job market, and the focus is on years of real work, not the number of certificates saying you think you know how things are supposed to work. And since there's no way to know when certification will be a hiring point again, there's no reason to spend time and money to get certified for technology that may be dead by that time.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
My boss recently hired someone here, and he was saying that while the candidates seemed eager, very few asked good questions or showed a lot of specific interest in this position. I think, like you, they wanted any job they could get. This attitude didn't really impress him.
The lesson, I think, is that you absolutely have to sound like you want this job, not any job. They're not going to hire you if they think you will immediately leave when you find something you like better, etc.
I'm not saying you necessarily showed this attitude in the actual interviews, but it's something to watch.
Your highest dollar certs in this industry are Oracle and Cisco. Tacking on a cissp wouldn't hurt these days either.
This brings up a good point. I now know why MCSE's require so many tests, for extra comfort. ;)
But seriously, I have found as well that people with certs usually are worse at their field than those who simply have the experience. If you have the experience then tout it.
While not the be-all end-all of certification, A+ certified techs know a TON more than some people who run and/or work in IT departments. Some of my cow-orkers are fine examples of this. Experience without skills. Authority without knowledge. And almost comical attempts at diagnosis. .
You are not the customer.
Do you have some experience with Fortran ? Cobol ? Well there are a lot of job out there because nobody want to go into those programming language anymore. granted you won't earn a lot , because usually those company are cheapstake, but you will earn a lot more than Zero, and you will maintain your programmer (read logic) skills. I found a job in a company after 2 messy day of searching. And there was a lot more (salary equivalent) proposition coming in.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
When I was 19 I accepted a full time tech position at a university. It's fairly easy to move up the ranks... you can double your salary in less than 3 years. They also pay for two classes a semester. Granted, you might be a bit older than you originally planned when you get your piece of paper, but you'll have a degree, PLUS a great amount of experience. Most universities also tend to encourage new ideas... it's almost like corporate america with a brain.
The best certification is validation by your peers. Locally attend small conferences, users groups, etc... get to know people in the field in your area, make your skills and understanding known. You might find a job directly through contact like that. At the least, you might make freinds with people with respectable established careers that you can use as references for employers to call and hear the good word about you.
Don't forget the on-line equivalent of this too - participate in technical newsgroups and mailing lists, help out with opensource projects, etc...
11*43+456^2
To tell you the truth, you need to go out and market yourself. Listen to what I did. I worked for a company that Cisco Systems outsourced to making 10 bucks an hour. The waiting list was about 1 yr to get on a tech team. All I did was route calls for so-called IT professionals.
Most of the calls I took the pros on the other end were less knowledgable than me on many subjects. I was so sick of doing it that I started sending out resumes to those companies. NO LUCK. They didn't care if I knew more or had more certs. They didn't even want to see me.
I went out and started up a small business in my neighborhood about a year ago, just fixing computers and doing home networking. That got my foot in the door. I went on the street hawking my wares to small offices, law offices, insurance agents, real estate offices and so forth.
Word got around and I got a couple of support contracts with med-sized businesses doing sys admin on their boxes. Real simple stuff that anyone could do. It's called comparative advantage. Now I've got a couple of contracts, and I'm negotiating a contract with a local general contractor to pull cable for new construction at 2500 a house. I have a pager and a cell and I make my own hours.
By the way--I'm 25 with 2yrs of college education. Comp Sci is not my major, nor ever was. But this helps with school a lot, and I have a family to feed. The only certs I have are A+ and my CCNA. I don't plan on doing this beyond graduation, but it's always a handy thing to have on your resume.
One last warning and advice. Warning. Insure yourself for about 1,000,000 per claim: the more certs and education you have, the cheaper insurance is. I pay about 2000/yr on prof. liability. Advice, join a professional association. You can network a lot and land tons of gigs. It worked for me.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
A BSc in Comp. Sci. and some co-op experience sounds more than enough to get your foot in the door (entry-level). Are you sure you are applying for the appropriate job? Perhaps you'll need to start lower than you want due to the sluggish economy? Since you are willing to work at any job, I would make sure that you aren't overlooking some of the lower end work (for the time being anyway) -- sys admin hopefully requires more experience than you have :) Likewise, look for "junior" positions as well. Look at non-tech companies that have tech needs (banks and insurance and investment companies for example).
:) of demonstrating over time that they are keeping pace with current technologies.
I don't think certificates early in one's career are that beneficial since it starts looking like you are just too obviously trying to make up for lack of real-world experience by overloading your resume with these certificates. Certificates, in my opinion, are good ways for senior practicioners (i.e. those over 25
Also, some people may use certificates to help with transitioning from a different career into tech (since going back to school is not an option).
My opinion: don't worry about the certificate issue and start doing a broader search for entry level tech positions.
** Also, it is hard for anyone to know WHY you didn't get an interview if we don't know exactly what your resume and cover letter contain and for what position you applied. You may just have a goofy sounding cover letter or weak resume.
Worse comes to worse, you can always do tech sales (I guarantee you can get a job there) -- man that phone boy!!!
To quote a CNN article:
"the most talented student will always have options."
Right now, the market is tight for programmers. This is no longer the field that anyone can get a degree in and automatically make 60K+ out of school. So, if you just got the degree because it was the hot thing to do, then your screwed.
If you really have a passion for computers though, then you will find that the market is still there. You just need to seperate yourself from everyone else. Forget certifications, that shows little self-direction, instead why don't you spend that effort developing a piece of open source software.
Write a piece of useful software that showcases your skills. Given the ability most folks have right out of college, this will definitely show that your worth hiring.
Or, if you can, take some time to really strengthen your skills. Companies are always hiring *good* programmers, regardless of the economy. Taking 6 months to study all the industry bibles (the GoF book, the Myers books, etc.) and learn the stuff that is actually useful in the real world. Do this instead of putzing around for 6 months looking at getting certs or drinking every night and you'll land a good job.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
If you look at StandardPoor you'll find that we're at or near the peak of company defaults in the US.... Unfortunately everyone's banking on a rebound and therefore a rebound won't happen. Sorry dude, I think you're gonna join next year's CMU and Berkeley IT grads on welfare. After that maybe it'll get better. The economy hasn't yet crashed enough to allow a strong rebound, but I don't expect a Japanese-style stagnation (they're having it real tough there).
The only cert that can get you a job is accountancy dude. But the rest of the /. people are going to try to make you feel good, and kid themselves that everything's OK. Wall Street does it as well, they're constantly 'talking up' the economy.
The reality of the matter is that even if you can code circles around Linus, as a new grad with < 10 years experience, you're gonna be on welfare for at least 18 months. Good degree, bad timing => plain bad luck. Sorry.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Granted, I didn't have BSc when I started out, but I spent a couple of years working low paying research assistant jobs before I made the jump to something I could really make a living at. Seriously, it took that long before it looked like I had enough experience to be attractive. Granted, I could've been more agressive in my job search, but, still it was always annoying to hear that my education was impressive, but I didn't have enough experience. I'll also note that I was looking for a scientific programming job back then and there was a PhD glut in the field which meant someone with a BS didn't stand a chance. Even so, once I got experience, especially in Internet stuff, the offers started coming in. Nothing gets an employers attention like real experience. Meanwhile, I've had mixed results with certs. I have a cert in SNMP and that's been a real boon, but my cert in Cabletron's Spectrum system has been a real waste. Glad I didn't pay for it. I think the difference is that one cert, the SNMP, says that I understand a field, while the other, Cabletron, says I know a specific system. The later is less valuable because you never know if employer has adopted that particular system. So, I'd say a good cert in something like Java, C++, SQL, or some other broad tech area would be good while windows XP cert might not be much help. But, anyway you slice it, this is tough time to be starting out in CS. I see lots of job opps for people with 5-10 years experience in "blah", but nothing entry level at all.
As much as it sucks, certs aren't the answer. Speaking with a hea dhunter recently he did say companies care much more about certs now than they did a year ago - but that is because they can. There is a fairly large, experienced pool of talent out there.
Getting certs, however, is a very expensive proposition for osmeone currently unemployed. A typical test can now cost aroun $500, so accumulating a list of certs is not really an option.
Deciding WHAT you want to do is the first step. You might consider doing anything if the opportunity comes along, but in terms of getting certs you need ot focus more (unless you have more moneyt than you know what to do with, in which case why do you need a job so bad?). This means, yes, making a decision about your future. Youare free ot change it down the line, but you do have to choose - sysadmin/netadmin, development, dba, etc
After you figure what you want get experience doing it. The portfolio is becoming a tool of the unemployed developer. Showing first rate code that you have written, along with unit tests, use cases/user stories, UML diagrams etc make syou look better. Really, if you have littl eprofessional experience it is the best thing you can do to look good for a "walk in" interview.
Choose the direction you would like to steer and start a project, or get in on a starting project. Don't dive into an established open-source project. They might appreciate the help, but your goal here is to have somethign to show that YOU can claim 100% credit for. Comntributing bug fixes to gcc won't do that for you, though it might feel good.
The seoncd thing is become involved in the local development community. You might laugh, but this is possible. Hit Yahoo Group and search for any group in your area related for what you are doing. Make an emeail account that can accumulate spam, and sign up. Talk to people. Networking (people, not CCNA) is still the best way to find a job, period.
Only then, consider getting a cert or two. The ones I have seen being respected are the Sun Java developer certs (okay, JCP is sorta laughable, but the larger ones get nods), Cisco certs are respected, and Oracle certs are respected. Certs are no substitute for experience, unfortunately. Human resources may not realize this, but the hiring manager will.
FInally, find someone who IS a professional developer, who has undergone many code reviews, who knows how the system works in a decent shop and ask if they will review your code and designs. Buy them beer, coffee, crack, whatever it takes. When it comes down to the decision - your skill will determine your success. THis includes skill in talking the talk - and the only way to do that correctly is to really learn it. Most good developers are willing to help new people, it is flattering. There are various systems to try to make this easier via the net. In my experience these are not nearly as good as meeting someone via the aforementioned networking and offering to buy them a beer in exchange for picking their brain. While buying em a beer, slip in that you would really like if they could do somehting like a formal code review of your stuff - afterall, it is the only way to really improve.
Finally, read lots of code. Figure out how it works. Look at systems and make sur eyou understand em. A *great*, though boring as hell, way to do this is to write API docs for good projects. Do not contribute directly to them yet - your time is better spent building things you can claim redit for. Let's say you are into Java development, run by the Apache project and submit improved API docs. No one likes writing em, but to do it well you NEED to understand what the code does.
That, and know that you have my sympathies. The hiring market sucks right now.
-Frums
It don't exist.
The first job out of college can be damned difficult to get. (Took me almost 9 months because were were in a slump like right now.)
A couple of suggestions:
The CCIE seems to be the one of the few certifications that, on it's own, will land you a job. Most certifications make you look a little better, but don't really mean jack against real world experience. The value of the cert is proportional to demand for the skills and the availability of those skills in the job market. For example, MCSE is in demand, but there are so many of them that it's not as valuable. CCIE's are in demand, but because it's hard to get the cert and expensive, it means the supply is still relatively low (at least last time I checked).
What I might suggest to you is simply get a list of a bunch of certifications and do searches on the various job sites to see how many hits you get, etc. That should give you a rough approximation of where the demand is. Also, maybe find a good technical recruiter and see what they recommend as the hot demand right now.
One bit of advice for you though is that I would put some careful thought into which direction you choose, be it programmer, admin, etc. A few years down the line you can change jobs, but if you do so you'll be very little better off than you are now due to the lack of relevant work experience in the new area. Tech jobs seem to seek people with very specific skill sets, and care less about general experience.
A friend of mine got into sysadmining but would much prefer being a developer now. Of course now if he was to try to go back and be a developer he'd have to take a substantial cut in pay. So if you might change your mind later, just be aware of this little trap and plan for it (save up some money, maybe do some side work in some open source projects, etc, just to keep your skills honed).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
...make friends with somebody in the company and get that person to refer you. It's a tough market right now, and unless you know somebody on the "inside", you'll have a hard time. Even if you were Bill Gates!
...18...19...20 Submit
Unfortunately, there are usually 2 orthogonal stages to being hired. First, your resume has to get past HR (Human Resources). They typically know nothing about the job beyond the half-page writeup.
:) that you can actually talk to someone about what is really involved, and sell yourself.
:)
So if it says "wants 5 yr experience with C", well, if you don't have '5 years experience with C' listed on your resume, you won't get forwarded on. Even if your name is Richie and you list '10 yrs C++' becuas you wanted to focus on recent accomplishments.
It's only after getting past HR (and perhaps a PHB
Certs are only useful for the HR stage, but that's a killer cutoff. I've recommended folks for jobs I wrote the spec for, only to have HR bump them because they were missing a buzzword.
Good luck! List everything, be concise
A.
I expect a lot of people will weigh in on certifications, and the arguments for and against are pretty widely known. Here is what I understand:
1)the vendor certifications (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) have some marketability, but the courses and related material are overpriced. So are the predictions of median incomes that certified people enjoy.
2)it is impossible for certifications to measure the ability to program, to think creatively or to solve problems. However, they do measure in a rough way one's familiarity with an application/OS's mechanisms to accomplish tasks.
3)Aside from Microsoft, Oracle and Cisco, employers have usually never heard of
the certification you have.
4) Employers are impressed about certifications when it is hard to measure competence. It is a third-party objective criteria. What impresses them is that you took the initiative, that you had to study for some test. That's different from just sitting at a seminar and passively absorbing information.
5). Despite what people say, "paper certifications" and "paper mills" are not worthless. The problem with IT institutes is that no training program can cover the variety of problems and administrative functions that one encounters on the job. On the other hand, they do a good job of exposing you to some of the basic tasks.
6)The problem with "paper certifications" (especially vendor-sponsored ones) is that to pass them you need to learn skills specific to the application or OS. That puts the onus of chasing after skills (and paying for them) entirely on the job seeker. And surely by the time you pass one certification, you'll hear about another one that is the next best thing. You need to ask yourself, "why I am spending time immersing myself in vendor-specific information when I should be learning more general things: protocols, network architecture and programming theory and algorithms.
7)Certifications do matter in my own field: technical writing and training. They indicate some familiarity with a particular domain of learning.
8)If you seek a certification, seek it only because you find the subject in and of itself to be interesting. I sought the LPI 1 certification because I needed to know these concepts anyway and the certification provided a structure and path for learning the material. Right now, I am pursuing another certification, the Master CIW Administrator
certification. I'm not sure employers will even know what this certification is, but I know that the subjects on the certifications: network security, ip6 and unix/windows interoperability are things I would be learning anyway.
9)If you do seek certification, don't spend more than $100 on study material. There are hundreds of sites and forums that provide good study guides and practice tests for free. You'll also enjoy sharing in the learning and studying experience. My favorite is Exam Notes
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
you've just graduated and you think you're the king of the world and above everyone else because you have a degree and you're trying to get a job as a Lead Programmer or lead something else. Get a lower job like JUNIOR programmer and make your way up. Its the best way to get your talents noticed. If you only go for the highest paying and highest jobs you'll never get it. Theres millions others who just got a degree this year. Give it up, you're not special because you have a degree. If everyone who had a degree automaticly got a good job there would be about 100 times more good jobs out there. Get your head out of your ass.
to the new economy.
better then certificates, make contacts. Network.
Go to the user groups in whateer field your interested. Find your local euntrepenuar club, meet people looking to hire someone for there start-up. if nothing else, it will get you experience.
The military is looking for people with IT knowledge. Get in as an officer, after 4 years, you'll be done. It's not really that hard of a career for people with technicall background, plus you might get liucky and get assigned to some Rll [probably make as much as you can in todays civilian market, withno experience.
It sounds to me as if you got into the technicall fiels 4-5 years ago because it was lucrative, but now that you got your degree, the market is crap, and you have no real interest in the technology.
I could be wrong.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
SAGE, the Systems Administrators Guild has a junior-to-mid-level professional certification for systems administrators now, called cSAGE.
Unlike vendor/product certifications, this cert is designed to assess your ability to perform in an IT role -- namely, systems administrator -- rather than your ability to memorize features and functions of a particular product. It tests troubleshooting skill, background knowledge of process and procedure, and general junior-to-mid-level sysadmin proficiency, both in general and specific to Unix (they're working on a Windows module and several other, higher-level "merit badge" modules).
.@.
I have never been asked for certs either. Been asked "do you have a degree..." several times.
With the job market in its current state, we are able to pay those we 5+ years of experiance the same as new graduates, however if a graduate comes along with not only a little practical experiance but also projects they have completed in their own time and other value added skills then we give them at least an interview.
Usually however experiance is more valuable than a dgree in the technology sector until we are looking for management jobs.
Recruiters are one of the grim realities of the evolving job market. Harried IT managers use recruiters because their schedules don't allow for the kind of thorough, enlightened review of resumes that would lead to a bright, yet inexperienced resource being invited for an interview. Recruiters know that they can only submit so many resumes to a manager (usually less than 10) and they want to make sure their chances of getting that 25%-40% of starting salary fee are good. On the flip side, most recruiters know nothing about the "product" they're selling to the hiring managers. So how do they do what they do?
First and foremost, recruiters break out the tried and true acronym filter and run the resume's through it. If the hiring manager says HTML, VB, CICS, JAVA, AIX, MOSIX, and Babbage Engines then the recruiter is going to throw out all resumes but those that satisfy every last one of the requirements.
Second, the recruiter is going to look at experience and sometimes certifications. Project experience, especially full-lifecycle stuff) is critical to getting past the recruiter to the hiring manager. Certifications are nice for people with experience, but if you have none, they're worthless.
I've found that the trick is to be very agressive about tailoring my resume to the job postings I see. I over 10 years industry experience so I generally can dig up enough relevant experience, that when massaged the right way, turn me into an ideal candidate.
Beyond that, you've got to call people. Talking to hiring managers (and I don't know how you get their numbers, you'll have to work on that yourself) is the best way to improve your odds. One in 40 might turn out for you, so prepare yourself for some serious rejection. But stick with it, and as long as the economy doesn't nose dive when Dick Cheney's predicitions of [9/11]^2 come to fruition, you may just find yourself employed.
yea i stole your sig- whats the big deal, it sucked anyway.
if you say, "i'll do anything!" then it sounds like you're not especially good at anything.
also i agree with the comment above, get a job through friends or relatives! the resume/cover letter route is SO HARD, i never got a job that way (which is to say i DID get them through relatives) until i had over 15 years experience. then i got the job i have now from resume submission.
My biggest complaint about certifications is that they are almost *ALWAYS* based on one's skill at memorizing a situation. This doesn't apply well to the real world where things are HARDLY EVER text book examples. These tests should ALL be practical in application so one could prove that they can not only memorize a fact or two, but that they can actually apply this understanding in a real time situation.
I also think certifications are used by companies like Microsoft to undermine the really qualified people in the workforce. I am currently looking for a job and one of the things I specialize in is WAN Administration. I recently applied for a job taking care of a medium sized WAN but since I wasn't certified, By Microsoft no less, I was turned down.
A lot of people have commented about it all being who you know, as well as having some experience under your belt. In my experience, it's a bit of both. I have a BS in CS (working on the MS), and I believe what helped me obtain employment with such a fresh degree was my resume. Not so much the pretty formatting, as the list of previous employments, which was substantial.
If you don't have a lot of previous experience or know the right people, how do you get a job? It's the vicious loop - no experience = no job, but no job = no experience. My recommendation would be this: consider contracting. I started with contracting jobs to help get additional post-graduate experience. The pay is not always the best, but it will get you the experience you need to move on to bigger (and maybe better) employments. If you do a nice enough job showing off your skills as a contractor, some firms will allow you to be hired on permanently, up from your contracting position. It's something to consider.
Move sig. For great justice.
In terms of the real world, certificates relate very little to the skill/knowledge of the person who has them. There are people who are excellent and what they do, and have vendor certifications. There are excellent people without vendor certs. There are frighteningly incompetent people with certs, and there are frighteningly incompetent people without certs. There are also all ranges in between. To boot, in my experience, there really isn't even a useful average quality behind certifications, so selecting a "certified" employee doesn't even increase your chances of getting someone with skill.
In short, there is no correlation that I've found between certs and quality of employees. Sadly, out in the world, some places take them very seriously. Some places they will just be your foot in the door, somce places they will get you the job, and some places won't even look at them; it really just depends. In a perfect world, I wouldn't even work for a place that required them or even took them into account since they are so suspect as a yardstick. Of course, it's the real world, and you have to work to eat.
In the long-winded end, certs typically can't hurt you, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't waste a lot of money or time trying to get them. These days the market is tight, so recruiters tend to not even talk to people who don't match every single requirement for a position, and those often include certs. If you're working with the end employer, you can often talk to the technical person and help him/her see past not having a cert. With an HR person or recruiter who isn't familiar with the subject matter, you'll probably need that cert. YMMV, but if I were doing the hiring, I'd never even mention/look at certifications.
A meaningless degree or even more meaningless certifications (Any ass with a Dummies book can get an MSCE) will do nothing for you.
You sure the job market in your area just doesn't suck?
I've quite a few friends who are in high paying jobs with little chance of being fired unless their various companies go down. They do not have degrees.
What? How did they score jobs like that? No - it wasn't because of the former dot-com boom. It was because they know their shit. The stuff they mumbled about in their sleep compiled and ran better than most of the things an average professional programmer codes while awake. They're proactive. They see a new technology and jump on it before anyone in the business world even knows it's there. They are totally within the Tao.
Do this, and you will never want for a job.
The question is, are you willing to give up having a 'normal' life now, that you might retire and live a peaceful, relaxing existance twenty years from now?
I sure as hell don't. *snicker* I want to see movies. I want to spend hours at night sitting in a diner drinking coffee and bullshitting with friends. I don't want to single-handedly put Mr. O'Reilly's kids through college.
Plus, I've been raised with the ridiculous idea that a degree means a job. *laugh*
If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.
But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.
That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.
All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).
The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.
Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.
If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.
There is a lot of operators out there. That is what is a buyers market.
if you do get some type of cert, please, please, do not be the guy from Dilbert "I summon the vast knowledge of my certifications!" and then says "Gee this is embarrasing. Out of the entire course that's all I can remember" (or something along those lines)
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
The easiest way to see the relationship between certificates and jobs is to do
a search on dice with a tech skill and x flavor
of certificate, then compare the same search without x certificate. I get about
1 certificate job listed for every 20 jobs. Certificates do, however; drive up
the prices of training.
As pgrote has said, certifications tend to be a cyclical thing and typically promote bandwagon mentality. (And to the 'truly technical', certs are often viewed as 'redundant'). However as someone who has fought for employment solely on the vagaries of my 'experience', it can be hard to get in the door and prove your skills to those 'truely technical' folks without the certs that HR and head-hunters like to flog.
With two years of co-op and a BS CS under your belt, I have to believe that you would not find it a difficult exercise to study up on your own and (as much as I hate to say it...) take a MSCE test or two.
a) you get a plaque(yes, it's analgous to tooth decay) from MS saying that you've got some basic quantitative skills. HR and PHB weenies get off things like this.
b) and if you pick up a certification in something that complements your existing skills you've made yourself even more valuable to a prospective employer.
This is just my take on how things operate in the market I've been working in, but I'd imagine that it's fairly universal in it's mechanics.
If you still find yourself stimied in your job hunt, you might want to seriously examine the posibility of relocating. From your description, I would hazard that coming out of a BS-degree program, you do not have any massive financial responsiblities (ie: mortgage, lease, 2-kids&dog) so this period may afford you flexability to relocate to a market where your skills are in higher demand and the lack of certs will be less likely hamper your job search.
Good luck in this, and keep us posted.
"If I wanted your input on my pet project, I'd stick my hand up your ass and use you like a sock-puppet." - Muse
Heres two links http//www.monster.com and http://www.dice.com. Of course if your a No Technology Administrator or MickeySoft Certified Shit Dumb then of course there will be no employment because everyone is moving their network to Linux GNU. Linux GNU Installfests are taking place at this very moment in companys across the globe because they do not want any Microsoft Extortionist License Plan or Microsoft BSOD CrashVirusWare. You may have to relocate for you new job but most companys offer a relocation package and payment for costs associated with your move.
As a manager in a consumer electonics shop I round file every resume that I get with a single cert. I want people who can think and engineers who understand the fundamentals. Technology changes and engineers have to bew able to heach themselves. I also value those that have strong social and writting skills. Also import are outside interests, show me a math major who wites gospal music for their choir who also can write device drives and I'll find a way to hire them in a hartbeat, funding or not.
The reason I will not hire certoids is they have focused too narrowly on technology. I want a well rounded person who will solve the right problem, not just a droid who will do what they are told.
I had always wanted to be a tech. After attaining the "tech" status I want more. I was, and still am, interested in networking. So I got my CCNA. So far it feels like I wasted $2000 of my own hard earned money for a worthless cert, and I'm stuck at a company who doesn't care about it's employees. Evidence: 1 tech to every 3200 users. On-call is not paid. IT dept is short-staffed on every level. BUT they have the moolah to build a new site! Oh, and I live in Oregon!
I am BLaRG!
Give up on job postings. I have never gotten a job from a listing like that. Every IT job I've ever found is through networking.
Talk to the people you worked with during your co-op. Talk to other students. Talk to professionals at your local ACM/IEEE meetings. Everyone you know should know that you are looking. Put a sign on your car. Whatever it takes.
Now, I suppose it's entirely possible that I just suck and my resume is horrible and the only way I can ever hope to get a job is by knowing the right people. I don't think that's the case, though. Leverage the people you know! If you don't know people, meet them!
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
I saw a mention in one of the posts that most certs are vendor or hardware specific (Cisco, for example). With LPI [www.lpi.org], SAIR [linuxcertification.com], and CompTIA [www.comptia.com] all offering various certifications. Does this make the linux certs more valuable? Which is the "best" of the ones I've mentioned? (I know, I didn't mention RHCE). Did I miss any others that are valuable? Thanks.
damn it sphealey, you remember me!
I'm the MS guy with the certs.
btw, I'm now working for the Government.
In terms of certifications, it depends on who's doing the hiring. 'Techno-savvy' managers are likely to outright dismiss certifications and look at experience above all else (including education). Managers who are less technically inclined are the ones who are impressed by certifications and education.
And lastly for experience, in my father's example he was looking for around five years experience minimum... and out of the hundreds who applied, only 6 had that kind of experience... It's quite the buyer's market right now, and experience can go a -long- way.
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
Contrast that to when I entered college (1997-98ish) and you can see we've slipped quite a bit -- companies were *soo* desperate for CS people that they would *pay your last year of college*. A buddy of mine graduated in 1997 as a CS/EE dbl and got picked up for 80k/yr by Sun to start. Now a *great* job is 45/yr.
The good news is it will pick up soon enuf.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Took the test and passed it.
He's terribly amused that he had an MSCE and would struggle to set the clock on a windows box. Achieved his goal of showing that the MSCE meant close to nothing.
OTOH, there are certificate programs like Cisco's where you do actually learn and gain skills. Those certifications are respected.
The real bottom line, however, is experience. College is helpful, especially when it comes to more advanced stuff later - you hopefully "learned how to think" during college and gained critical thinking and debugging skills, but right now people are (1) seeing a glut of somewhat experienced people from the .com blowout and (2) seeing that you've never really run machines in real world scenarios.
The classic ways into the market are to get experience by cheating:
- Take a job that's beneath that and start to pick up some of the system admin slack where you can.
- Do volunteer project oriented work. Having "coordinated internet connectivity and firewalls at $myTown's school system - implementing IMAP, mail and web access using LDAP for authentication and perl to report on web access" would be killer. And good, real experience.
Thinking outside the box and all will show that you have initiative as well.It's something that can be done in a finite time and takes up some useful resume space. You also often work with interested parents who, often, work at or own companies.
Good luck
One of the more important things that will help you get a job in this field has little to do with computers. So many employers have been shell-shocked by incompetent/rude tech employees, that coming across as patient, helpful, and intuitive will give you a real leg up over other potential applicants. The only other thing I can suggest is calling big wheels in the industry and city you're intrested in. (CEOs, CIOs, or head engineers) Ask them for advice on who you should talk to about a job in the area & what skills/ certifications you should push. Don't be upset if they're not interested in helping you and DO NOT ask them for a job. What you're hoping for is 1:Getting some knowledgable free advice 2:Making them think "Well that was a nice person, I'll have to remember them." As far as the certifications go, they'll be very helpful if they directly relate to the job description you're applying for. If not, they won't do you much more good than "President of the high school Debate Club"
Get certified in a new IT language. C# with visual studio.net is a good bet where no one really has any real good experience. After that, you can try the government, it's a good place if you're desperate. Once you get a few years, you can try the corporate world again.
Otherwise you could try to bid on a contract job, but that's tough with no experience.
Good luck...
It's definitely already been said, but it's worth emphasizing that online postings for jobs can be a huge waste of time -- resulting in a few calls from headhunters, and not much in the way of actual offers (see this CNET article for more info).
If you do rely on job postings (online, in the newspaper, or otherwise) to find employment, make sure that you are assertive, and make sure you're dealing with a human being when possible -- it's good to know who actually reads your letter when you email it to jobs@somecompany.com.
Of course, knowing a few people at companies you'd like to work at is incredibly valuable.
-ubermuffin
I bet if you start hiring from places where people with a "true interest in computing" hang out all day, you'd be a lot better off. Start at Slashdot and work outwards!
One of my interview questions is "What is your greatest technical achievement?" If your answer to that question has anything to do with certifications, I will throw you out into the street.
I don't recall ever being critically intersted in an applicant's certifications, and when I am, I can consult their resume. I want to know if you can do the job.
Everyday I see people on Slashdot whining about how they can't get job. Well it all sickens me. There are numerous computer science jobs out there if you know where to look.
...
I spoke to a director in the US Patent Office the other day who said although USPO is on a hiring freeze right now, it will soon start accepting resumes to fill up 700 positions as examiners. The only requirement is that you have a B.S. Just think of the possibilities. Hate obvious ideas such as "One Click Shopping?" Then don't grant it a patent.
Second, many Department of Defense contractors are looking for programmers. Lockheed Martin, Mitre, BAE, just to name a few
I cannot offer the same perspective as a portion of the mass who comes to Slashdot, but I can offer the perspective of a college kid. Right now, I am a Computer Science undergrad here at LSU, and how you feel towards computers and technology is a big factor in deciding what you want to do.
There are three main computer related fields here: information systems and decision sciences, which gears people up to be more of like ITs for businesses, computer science, which gears people for understanding computing concepts, theories, and application of them, and computer engineers, who knows a solid portion of theory and application but apply that in designing hardware.
If all you want to do is to write software like a code monkey and don't care about understanding higher principles in computer theory, then take the IT solution. Go to a highly respected technical college, get a couple years experience, and then you will be ready. If you are a person like me whose wants to go beyond making a simple application for people but to advance yourself in thought as well as application of skills, then look towards going to college, getting a well-rounded education, do a couple internships, and have things a little bit better than being in a technical school.
Employers do not solely look at what you know. Trust me, if you put something infront of me that is not written in stereophonics, then I can figure it out and produce something. College attempts to well-round you. Why is it that one of the major signs of a potential hacker is to be proficent at playing a musical instrument? Doing math word problems? et cetera.
Anywho, sit down and think what you want to do and how you feel towards that. Whatever will make you happy in life, do it! I am not in this field for the money; that is just a bonus for doing what I love!
This may be too obvious to mention, but the process of studying for a certification is more important than attaining the end result. You should be reading these study books because the knowledge is useful and interesting. Take the quizzes, and don't be afraid to do research about why the answer you chose was incorrect. Perform the tasks yourself and research why your initial guesses about how to do things turned out to be incorrect. While you shouldn't ignore the braindumps of others, you should really be focusing on doing things yourself. You'd be amazed at the difference between how the book describes it and how it really is done.
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
Well ok there's a couple that pay $25/hr. I think I'd rather work at In-N-Out Burger for that and make half as much for half the hassle.
Unless you have 8 years experience minimum, no one cares about your dumbass papermill certification.
If you really want the job and it says you have to have a certification, just lie and put it on there anyway. In 10 years working in this industry, I have never seen anyone actually check to make sure that a prospective hire actually has his certifications.
enjoy.
I personally think certifications are excellent... for the certification companies. All those fees and exams and "ongoing requirements" (e.g. lifelong cashflow). As a useful measure of someone's ability, they rate about zero with me.
If you can't code, get a piece of paper that says you can.
For some reason, the only "certified" people I know are incompetent. I figured they needed a piece of paper to impress someone because they lack the skills necessary to beef up the resume.
Rather like the programmer we hired who suddenly blurted that he really wasn't "technical". Holy smokes!! What good is THAT!? We made him a Project Manager which is basically like playing catcher behind the plate at a Shitball game.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
What people want out of employees is the person who will make the company the most money and cost the least to retain. In this way, the market favors you because with no real experience you're cheap labor. However, the labor market is saturated now with tens of thousands of IT people who got Comp Sci degrees because they thought (with some justification) when they went to college in 1998 that all the money is in computers.
Well, it is if you know what you're doing. A good programmer with no business experience or work experience is more than worthless - (s)he is a liability and as far as a potential employer is concerned, they'll just provide you with a few years of experience, you'll hone your craft and then split and they'll have to find a way to replace you. Employers want marginally competant people with 1-3 years of experience who can slip in, do the job, and require a minimum of hand-holding and training. You are not that person. Your co-op experience is valuable and doesn't hurt, but it won't land you a job either.
More than experience, degrees, certificates, or accolades, the market and your personality determine when and where you get hired. This is a bad time to be looking for IT work, but if you know your stuff and can prove it and demonstrate that you understand your industry, you should have no trouble finding work.
Of the people in my group, the degres break down as follows: 1 Comp Sci, 1 English, 1 History, 1 Philosophy, 1 Mathematics, 1 Physics, 2 MIS, 8 with no degree at all. The worst by far are the MIS guys. This isn't because of their degree. It's because they don't give a shit about computers or how they work, they just want to turn a buck. Just like most people who enter the computer fields. Freshman classes have ballooned full of people who have no business being in the industry because they don't really care. They just want money and computers are perceived to be the new way to get there without that hassle of law school.
I entered the job market in 1999 with no degree, no certificates, no experience, no idea what an employer wanted. I found a job in a few weeks. It paid $10K less than what I wanted, but once I got there and realized that I really was pretty good compared to my peers, I demanded a salary increase. They refused to even meet me half way to my expectations so I found another job that paid $15K more and has better benefits.
I got both jobs because I interviewed well, easily demonstrated my technical knowledge, and was able to put forth coherent, clear opinions about the industry. Even though most of my opinions (at the time) were pretty backwards (and mostly proven wrong), I was hired. At least I cared enough to have an opinion.
The people who get a BS in Comp Sci and then scratch their heads over why they can't find work when they've never invested a single second of their lives outside of academia (and "co-ops") to the industry can't find work.
I'm not accusing anybody of being one of these people, but you'll find the most enjoyment (and employment) in your line of work if you actually give a crap about the things you do. And really this is common sense stuff that goes with any job, be it IT or otherwise. It's obvious to an employer who will be passionate about their work and who will lazily drift through their day, doing only enough not to get fired. IT in general is a "when it rains it pours" industry, and that goes for work loads, down time, and employment opportunities. Be patient. I personally wouldn't bother with ceritificates. If you couldn't find work without one, getting one isn't going to be the answer. If you can get them for free, brush up on your best skills and do it. But they're not worth the money and while they don't hurt, I personally don't think they help much (exceptions include indsutry- or supplier-sponsored things like CCNA's).
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it?
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet he at least learned how to speak and write well in college. You on the other hand show such poor communications skills that I have trouble believing you know much about anything. If you claim to have 20 years experience then I'd love to hear exactly what it is you've done. I just can't understand how anyone so inarticulate could survive in the business world. I wouldn't want you representing my company.
From that job, I moved on to more C programming positions; in each case I stressed the fact that while I was young (I started in the industry at age 15), I was dedicated to my choice of career and was a very quick study. I bore this claim out in my work ethic and was rewarded by advancing to positions which carried more and more responsibility, and garnered competitive salaries.
So, what worked for me was to study hard on my own to sharpen the skills I saw as marketable (luckily for me in the mid- to late-90s, that was any computer skill). Then, in interviews, I provided examples of my work for programming jobs, or asked for a project to give a solution to, in the case of sysadmin jobs. While the market is definitely tighter these days, a combination of hard work honing your skills on your own time, and proving yourself to be a dedicated, focused professional on your company's, will pay off.
As far as finding a good recruiter goes - in my experience, they're all pretty much the same; either they have a position for you or they don't.
-- -R
I am a rarer breed of technician than what most folks may typically encounter.
I have used and serviced Macintosh systems since 1987 (15 years). I have used and serviced PC/Intel-class hardware for a few years more (18 years). I am an Apple Service Technician, a certification valid only when you work with an Apple Authorized Service Provider (which I do).
I'm also an author of this book on beginning Macintosh programming in Mac OS 9 and X.. So, I can write and document matters, too.
More than a year ago, I was hired by a new IT company for Macintosh support, and received a very large pay increase commensurate with my experience. Recently, the client I provide services with had decided to move to a larger, more global IT solution. My company did a great job for them, but couldn't do the global bit. In the span of 3 months, a bunch of PC technicians, many with years of experience as well as some certs (of those, many had advanced certs) were recalled by my company from the client and sent elsewhere. Had they been employees of our client, they would've been fired.
I and a few others who had very special skills were kept to handle interests that the global IT solution couldn't handle.
This isn't the first time that my experience in many things Mac and PC has saved me from being ejected or moved around.
My point: Experience counts a great deal now. Certifications do help, but aren't essential (my Apple Service certification is really a glorified A+ for Mac OS systems). Diversity in your experience is what might make the difference between a job opportunity and a ding letter.
I sometimes fantasize how much money I could ask for if I added an MCP certification as well as the new certifications that Apple offers for their products as a counterpart to MS certifications. For me, diversity in my experience has proved to be a powerful way to move up in the world. Being able to document and teach hasn't hurt either.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Many people who have been maintaining PC's for 10+ years might find the A+ exams quite difficult! And a good portion might even fail. The A+ tests are a very good test and they require specific knowledge of PC hardware, networking, printers, and software. Unlike other certifications (Cisco, MS, etc), the A+ is not specific to a certain brand of hardware. Have you even taken the A+ test? If not then you shouldn't dismiss it as garbage.
Got friends?
I work in IT, with no certifications other than a BA in Comparative Religion. My computer skills are entirely self-taught, and I have been able to work in areas of increasing responsibility and complexity.
;) ).
Typically, I've switched jobs or applied for new ones based on who I know at the new job, or what I know about them. The biggest thing you can do for yourself is to identify _where_ you want to work -- and then do your research. Do you know anybody who works there -- or have friends of friends who work there -- who can tell you more about the place, including what positions are open, what skills they need? I identified an employer I wanted to work for based on their reputation in the community, and then started asking questions. When I discovered they needed people with PHP experience, I taught myself PHP and applied -- and got the job.
In another instance, with a freelance job, I knew somebody tangentially related to a department that needed some webwork done on contract -- and she put in a word for me. It was my communication skills, in the end, that got me the job.
While your resume may shine, and you've got it plastered all over town, people still like to go with known variables -- so you'll need to circulate, and get to know people (in case you don't already
Go to Toastmasters, and participate. Or find somebody who can coach you through some interviews -- chances are there's a job service in your area with whom you can sign up that could help you.
Don't expect to get a job on your skills and talent alone. A workplace isn't just a computer -- it's people, and they need to know that they can communicate with you, and vice versa, before they hire you. Programmers do not work in isolated environments anymore.
Slightly different field, same concept.
;-)
I have worked for the same Defense Contractor in the DC area since 1994. Graduated then with a BS Finance and some low level military experience (well, I did work in a Major Subordinate Command as a Captain for a while as a Reservist).
Anyway, this part will be easier now than it was in 1994:
1. Get classifieds from newspapers (or search web classified of newspapers) in the regions that you think there may be work or where you want to move to. I graduated from utk.edu and there was not much in town, so I got the sunday Washington Post every tues or so and copied the fax and e-mail addresses for every defense related job I could find, then sent resume and cover letter to each. Not many back then, but at least this breaks you away from the monster.com masses today too.
2. Always tell them you will be in the area for a couple of days the following week, i.e., if you send to Chicago today say you will be there Tues - Thurs next week. This gets you past many of the "out of town apps" that get trashed, also, since you are responding to the newspaper ad it gives the illusion that you actually give a crap about that city
3. When you start getting responses, plan your travel to do several interviews at once. If you get one interview in Chicago this week, but 2 in NYC next week and another in Chicago the week after, try to get one of the Chicago ones moved.
May not help, but I hope it does. Sofar what I have seen on this article is "I don't have a cert and you don't either" or "I have a cert and so do you". Seems you have a good enough education, just need to use a different guerilla method to get some interviews.
BTW, you ARE AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY and leave every possible way to contact you that you know of (your phone, parents, cell, fax (I know but they are still in use), e-mail, snail mail, EVERYTHING!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
But they laughed at me when I told them I could build a router from scratch, so plugging one in and reading the manual shouldn't be too much for me. I also told them that SQL was SQL, and I could handle anything they could throw at me.
But I really think the thing I did wrong was to ask for TOO LOW a salary. My advice to Slashdotters is not to underestimate your abilities. Take whatever you think you're worth and double it. Don't worry, they won't offer you that, but at least they'll take you seriously.
I can't tell you how many "I've worked so hard on this" type resumes I've seen that are real garbage.
Some time ago I worked in a place that afforded me the opportunity to see many hundreds of resumes. Be sure yours is in that top 1% as far as layout, wording, tone, and what it conveys about you. Keep your personal interests off of it. Get it reviewed by a resume professional and a hiring manager from any professional field. Tri-fold it and place in nice envelope, deliver personally, smile and gladhand everyone there, and last but not least customize a different version of it to target each job specifically.
Certifications won't help you much at this point. Right now for you being good at a job is not nearly as important as being good at job hunting.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
As a programmer, I must say I dislike the entire "certification" philosophy. I do not think that being able to pass standardized multiple choice exams is a very meaningful measure of anyone's ability to perform analytical/problem solving tasks, especially programming. I've worked with various net admins with certs out the butt who simply could not analyze problems and solve them. I think real world experience is vastly more important.
When I was involved in the hiring process, I never ever cared about programmers' certifications (only a very low percentage of them even had certs). Instead, I looked at what they *did*. Also, I read the want ads quite a bit and I almost never see anyone asking for "certified" programmers.
So, if you want to write code, don't waste your time with programming certifications. They really don't help you, especially if your interviews are conducted by coders.
If you want to be in network administration, unfortunately it seems you need certs to get anywhere. Again, I disagree with the philosophy behind this, but that's the way it goes, I guess.
...is that you chose computer science... not engineering.
With that out of the way, what about non-profits? Most of these need general computer assistance, but don't really know what to ask for. Someone with basic tech knowledge could make a real difference.
In fact, if you like open source software, you could help the revolution along:
- Get a general tech job at a non-profit, hopefully one working with disadvantaged people with low educational skills
- Help convert old computers to Linux systems so that they can still be used to some capacity.
- Start modifying interfaces for the needs of co-workers and the people they help. Make a real-world usability lab that works!
- Become famous as the guy who put Linux on the desktop ("He made it so that even high-school dropouts could use it!")
- Spend the rest of your life sipping champagne and eating caviar with Linus.
Now, isn't that more exciting than working with Cisco routers all day, Mr. CCIE?I take it you're not broke. If you are considering a certification, I would assume you still have some money, or room for a bit more debt as they are not cheap. Rather than some certification that may or may not be a crap shoot, have you considered other post grad education options? A housemate I had at school last year just completed his BSc in CS last month. He's a very good coder, but knew he would not have much luck diving into the job market right now. SO instead, he opted for a bit more debt, and headed down to the states for some more school, specifically, a "gaming programming" program with a private school. He loves gaming, and wants to work for one of the big boys (such as dreamworks) He did a lot of research into the school and found it to be quite reputable in the industry.
It seems you are willing to do just about anything as a job description, but perhaps what you need to do is a little soul searching, and narrow down your interests. There is a lot of schooling out there for specific careers that are only open to people who take that specific route.
You have paid for a total of 0 pages and so far 0 have been used up (0 today).
This was linked off Red Hat's site sometime back in the RHCE hype. This data is pretty old; I haven't seen them post any updates.
I myself have an OCP; I would think Java would be more reasonable cert for a new grad.
http://www.crn.com/sections/special/ssurvey/ssurv... something (a langage, a product, a technology, whatever since you don't care) that companies are looking for. There are plenty of IT managers that are waiting for you, but you have to give them what they want.
I got an MS in Comp Sci and like you couldn't get a job for love nor money even though I too knew I could do what I was applying for (Java Development). I even had a well received and published MS thesis under my belt together with a contribution to an award winning project funded by the UK Post Office. How many interviews? Zip. Nada.
I though fsck it, go freelance. So I set myself up as a "company" and worked freelance doing Internet work for about 18 months and built myself up a large client portfolio. Eventually I though I'd take a crack at the job market again. With my freelance experience (which I'm told looks good because it proves you can do stuff ON YOUR OWN) I landed an interview within a week of trying and got the job.
Two years on I'm my job title is "senior systems engineer" and I travel all over the world working on various projects.
Never under estimate the power of being self-employed.
There is enough information in my previous post to warrant a plug here.
Basically, IBM DB2 certification is free, and Oracle tests and materials are available for half price if you are in an academic program.
He obviously wasn't typing with his hands.
It is great that you have a degree and some experience. A good way to get your foot in the door is to ask for an internship. If the company likes what they see, they may hire you full time. When approaching a company that you want to work for, it would be hard for them turn down someone who wants to intern for them!
MR
are you using? Do you like them?
This is another view of the world.
Certs CAN and DO help. They leave your breath smelling minty fresh... Of course you can try brushing or mouthwash, but nothing is going to be a convienent as Certs.
Of course you also asked which Certs.. I prefer to hire people who use Wintergreen (Artificially Flavored) and I would probably not hire someone using Cinnamon (Artificially Flavored). The other two Peppermint or Spearamint are a toss up, but if they make your breath better, go for it! What do you have to loose?
Be Certain with Certs !
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
If you are a programmer type.
:-)
Java 2 Cert for Programmer.
Java 2 Cert for Web Developer
Java 2 Cert for Analyst
Java 2 Cert for Arhitect.
If you are a data guy.
Get Oracle DBA Cert.
If you are a LAN guy.
Get MCSE AND RedHat Cert. I am a CNE, but not to many people wanting CNE's these days. Even though NetWare 6 looks great.
Possibly look at the Cisco cert. I don't know much about that one.
When I hire people I do look at these things, and to be honest when it comes down to two resume's that are similar, the one with the cert gets the nod. If anything it shows that the person is capable of completing something.
Having said that, I need to get my act together and get my Java2 cert.
Now the downside....
Programmers are moving to India fast. I don't think that this will be a long term hit, but it will hurt you in looking for programming jobs that are hiring now. In the long run there WILL be UNIONS to prevent this type of stuff, but it will take a while. I am not a fan of UNIONS, but I know that history repeats itself.
DBA's - There are currently a lot of DBA's in the market now, and your competition will be tough, however you might have an edge if you get the newest Cert with some other i.e. Oracle 9i DBA AND RedHat. This would be a great combo, however it will take a LOT of work.
SYSADMINS/LANGUYS - Like DBA's there are a LOT of these guys out of work, mostly because of all the consolodation and dot.com disaster. Your salary won't be what it could have been 3 years ago, but you will make a living. Your living might require you to be on call 24 X 7, and work an unreasonable amount of hours, but you should be able to find a job. Also you will probably get stuck on all the crappy jobs, so you better get use to dealing with email issues.
All this said, you have two main options.
1. Focus on one product/skill and hope that it is what employers are looking for.
2. Get a broad skillset and hope that employers are willing to hire someone who isn't a perfect fit.
Lastly when I graduated with a BS degree, and wanted a computer job in the late 80's, it was almost impossible to find a job for a white computer GUY. I had to take a job for $6.50 an hour, and start working my way up. I could have made more than that if I stayed at my old job pumping gas. You have to ask yourself, do you REALLY want to do this for a living. If so then you will make some sacrifices. I make a heck of a lot more than $6.50 an hour now.
Steve Michael
Network Architect
smichael@netcapade.net
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
Now is absolutely not a good time for a recent grad to be looking for a job. This is especially true since every company that normally hires new-grads has likely already filled their positions. It is the end of May, after all.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
There are some things that you can do to help get a CS job -- you're on the right track, more/less with the idea of getting some more education. I don't think that the actual certification is worth much more than a statement of "I have some initiative," though. I certainly don't pay much attention to it when I interview candidates.
As previously pointed out, it's a buyers market, and so those companies that do have jobs are going to have their choice of people. Frankly, the fact that you don't have a job now is a strike against getting one soon -- there's a hidden bias that says "Well, nobody's wanted him yet. Should I take a chance?"
Things to do? Find a small handful of companies who have hired your friends, and who are either hiring now, or will be soon. Learn as much as you possibly can about the company and their products. That way, when you do get an interview, you'll be able to talk intelligently -- that, by itself, can wow them.
Don't stay unemployed -- find something else to do related to your field. Write open-source software to create a name for yourself (and learn something in the process); go back to grad school and wait the job market out; Travel -- at least when they ask 'why is he still unemployed,' the answer can be 'he was backpacking across Europe', and not 'he was being turned down by 30 other companies.'
Certifications are a great way of learning what you want to do in the field, but most employers would rather see the experience that you've done it.
/. when you have a big math exam tomorrow.
For co-op jobs, most employers are looking for people who have good people skills, and work well with others. Be sure to mention any sports, frats, or other activities that you're involved with in your college on your résumé.
If you get an interview, it is always good to bring a copy of your résumé; along with any work that you have done that may be related to the job. You also should definitely research the company before you go there for an interview; it will make you look like you're interested in their area.
Many employers look for people with high GPA's. So keep studying, and keep your GPA up, don't waste time posting to
I was actually looking at the SAIR linux certification the other day. I can understand the rush to get certified by people who are just in it for the money, but for those are are interested in augmenting their knowledge because they WANT to be better at what they do, certification seems like a reasonable choice. I'm not so interested in what employers/clients are looking for, so much as I am in being effective at what I do. Why let the employer decide this for you?
This opinion probably isn't too popular, but I don't think there is much to the "unfair" usage of H1-B foreign workers.
There are a lot of frustrated, unemployed IT workers out there crying foul. Face it, we are still in a recession. Too many people are applying for too few jobs. The economy is slowly recovering, unfortunately many people have been unemployed or underemployed for months. There are a lot of frustrated IT workers still looking for jobs. The economic pendulum has swung back to the employer after almost a decade of out-of-whack salaries and unrealistic expectations. It's going to take a while for things to improve from the employee's perspective.
I don't think it is fair to blame the fact that you are unemployed on the H1-B visa program. That program was ramped-up in a period of high IT labor demand. Not suprisingly, now that there are many qualified H1-B employees out there, some employers are using them to their advantage. Some would argue abusing it to their advantage.
The H1-B program is an easy target, especially after the terrorist attacks in the United States. It has become a real "hot button" issue. Sure, there is a pool of talented H1-B workers who are willing to make a lower salary than American workers. But, I refuse to believe that a substantial number of unemployed IT workers are out of work solely due to the H1-B program. When the economy picks up again, we'll all see that the H1-B program is a non issue.
So I guess that when you go to a doctor you don't care if he/she is certified.
Hell, if he has 20 years experience then he must be good!
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
or maybe...
LEARN 3H DOWSING - Access your intuition for true answers to any issue. Be your own healer, then help heal others. Free 2 hour workshop. 12 hr class w/workbook $135. 407-301-0348
It wouldn't say I know more than most kids my age, but at least it would show I have a personality.
Links will require searches.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
If you can stand it, there are lots of SAP positions going worldwide, and the salaries are generally the highest in the industry.
I've seen on countless occassions, more so since the job market is tight, that when it came down to deciding who was to stay or who was to go, the final decision wasn't based on job term, certifications, or whether you were a good brown-noser, but was made based on the fact of who had a 4 yr college degree. Employers are finding out that 2 year tech doesn't mean shit. Sure, you may be able to program pretty well. But for most, that is all you can do. Verbal and Written communication is severely lacking from people who 'educate themselves and 2 year techs'. From a managment perspective a person with a 4 yr degree is well rounded and would be better at adapting to change. As harsh as it may seem, it happens all the time. Many good workers are let go because they don't have the paper to back them up.
Hey, if you arent working right now, I have never seen anyone go wrong by volunteering those handy tech skills to a needy organisation. It gets you both experience and contacts. It also keeps your skills sharp.
How many times do we need to answer these types of questions from newly graduated kids who thought their little papers amount to a hill of beans?
1) It's all about the brown. If you think homosexuals are those funnily dressed people who go on parade once a year, think again: the job market is an extension of the homosexual life-style. You have to lick, suck and ass fuck your way to the middle. This is just what you have to do not to lose your job.
2) As a further extension of man-to-man contact, you will have to learn to play golf and hang out at your boss's cottage on the weekeneds.
3) Suck up and touch each other a lot, more man-to-man contact.
Or become a professional student, stay in university till you're about, oh, 55 or so.
You can hone your skills, get some real-world experience, not to mention some excellent references if you volunteer some of your time working for a non-profit company.
It's not big bucks at first, but it's definitely going to be a plus to put on a resume. "Volunteered systems administration services (or whatever) for 'Homes for Puppies'"... that line will get you in if you're interviewed by a dog lover. You get the idea.
degree's and cert's don't mean a thing if you are useless.
If you are useful then degree and certs will document how useful you might be.
Write software that showcases your skills and SOLVES problems.
I have no degree, dropped out of college after 2 weeks, no certs either... but solved people's problems and often before they knew they where problems.
Show them that you can hack your way out of a box and do it without anyone knowing and without being prompted, and all of this to their benefit. You will NEVER be without a job. If you want to get hired give them the solutions to problems they haven't yet realized.
The certifications are what help you get your foot in the door. In many cases, the HR people that are advertising for, or seeking the skilled professionals, have no real knowledge of what this person should know, so keywords like MCSE, CCNP, MCSD, and RHCE in your resume, and on your Dice/Monster/InsertFavJobSiteHere page are extremely helpful in getting the calls and emails to get that initial interview.
Additionally, in some cases, an appropriate certification commensurate with your position is required. I would not have the job that I currently hold, if I didn't posses an MCSE. The pharma company I work for uses certs as a tool to show the FDA that appropriately trained and certified personnel are running the systems on site. Now that I have started working on Sun workstations and servers there, I have to go get certified so that my training record reflects that "I am qualified to fulfill the duties of my position".
Bottom line, choose whatever you enjoy more, networking, Windows SA, UNIX SA, development, whatever...then get a cert appropriate for the positions you'll be seeking.
That's just my $.02 cents...hope it helps.
And what if you are working for a company of 100 people? You need to design a network of 1000+ seats to be a "designer?" If I'm the only computer tech for a company of 25, am I a lowly "operator" even though there's no designer?
Sounds to me you're referring to consultants vs. implementors. The consultants say "you should build a faster car" and the implmementors do the REAL work of figuring out how.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
Sorry I can't help you out here; but I do have a funny anecdote to, maybe, make you smile...
I recently was looking for a job; and I updated my CV to say 'decorative around the office'. Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe not .. but I did get a job that week ;)
After all looking for a job is all about pimping yourself out, and touting your wares, right?
If you want to make decent money...well, I'm a IT manager making six figures with nothing more than a CE bachelors degree and eight years of experience, so it's not really necessary. If you want to point at a bunch of initials and so "ooh! ooh! look what *i* can do!" without actually doing anything, then fork over that money and sign up today!
I'm currently trying to decide which major to pick. My current goal is to be a system or network administrator. In my school Information Systems is more business oriented and is much easier, while Computer Science focuses more on programming and theory. Which major would be the best choice for me?
Or soon, the contract will be over.
You know, that thing where we're all exhorted to spend, spend, spend, keep the economy moving... but strangely enough, they keep laying people off, refusing to hire, etc etc etc.
Eventually, people are just going to get sick of spending just to give money to those Enron CEO types who'll just hoard it.
Woe betide the USA when consumers eventually give up trying to spend the economy back into employment.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Regardless of your certifications and experience, the big thing you'll face is competition...lots of it. I am not a firm believer in certifications or education in Computer Science. A degree means everything and nothing at the same time. In fact, getting certification in something might pigeonhole you into a specified salary range and a boring job. Regardless of your qualifications, and even experience, you can expect to be in the hunt for jobs with at least 400 other applicants. I spent 4 months looking for work, I have 6 years of IT experience ranging from small to medium sized companies, and cut my teeth in startups...even though I got my degree in Psychology (again, to have a degree is good, but it isn't really going to be the deciding factor in a job). I finally landed a job, fortunately for the same salary as I was making, but not with the same title or responsibilities as before...oh well, that can be good (I think so) or bad (possible future employers might think so).
In a nutshell, don't focus so much on your certifications, rather, focus on your communications skills. Develop relationships with people as quickly as possible, and get your foot in as many doors as is possible, even if it means walking in and putting a resume in someone's hands (preferably the hiring manager). Also realize that the person who is filtering through your resumes probably doesn't know a thing about IT, and will only be focusing on a few select skills that the hiring manager is asking for...
man rtfm
Unfortunately, I was let-go before I was able to complete my Oracle DBA track certification (those damn exams are expensive....and I don't even have a database to practice on anymore). So now, I don't have any leads.
I have a decent resume: .PDF or Word
But I feel like the 900+ resumes/cover letters I've sent since March are not reaching real people...
In addition, I see the same jobs being posted over and over. I know there are qualified people to fill these positions.... is this all a charade?
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
Whenever the economy takes a downturn, it is wise to broaden your employment options by broadening your possible careers. While the glitz and glamour of working 40 hours a week on building Linux clusters is great, there are only a few of those positions available. Since the job market is in a downswing for programmers, possibly check out other arenas of employment. For example, the educational market is in desparate need for individuals with a technical background to teach math and science classes. While it may not be exactly what you want to do, it will provide you with experience, those greatly appreciated communication skills, and diversity in your resume. If education is not your bag, why not consider doing something with government or nonprofit organizations? Since the tech boom of a few years back, the need for individuals with computer skills in government jobs has skyrocketed. But most programmers have shied away from the lower-than-corporate salaries, but there are amazing oppotunities to work on some incredible projects for the government. If you have an international penchant, you could even sign up for the Peace Corps, or look into becoming an Information Management Specialist for the U.S. State Department or Foreign Service. I know that the Peace Corps is in search of individuals who can implement information technology programs aborad, and a two year committment to this program would wow them at your next job interview.
What got me a job was networking.
I had some friends of mine who worked at a couple companies that I was interested in, which enabled me to get interviews there, and eventually an offer from one of them.
In this kind of market, networking goes a long way.
You should contact the people who you co-oped with and see if they know of anyone who is looking for help.
Unfortunately you can not read. He is at the same point that we all started with a degree and little to no experience. The best advice that I ever got was to consider the job search as job where you are marketing yourself and your skills. You need to use every avenue that is available that has been mentioned in all of these replies and don't get discouraged, I came out of college at a time just like this and it took me four months to land my first job. The best place to start is doing research on the companies where you like to work to find out about there background and opportunities. The jobs generally go to the individuals who stand out from the others and your way to stand out right now is to know more about the companies you're dealing with than the other guys. Get excited about working a a particular company and pursue them. If you know someone in the company use to find out who to talk to about a position in IT. Let everyone you know know that you are looking, what you are looking for and what your background is so that you network. Post your resume on all the computer job site starting with DICE and Monster. It is a buyers market, but there are jobs out there you just have to find them. To the gentleman who thinks he know so much about job categories being broken down into operators and designers. Open your eyes, it is broken down into more areas than that and I have worked in every segment of it and wherever you are you need to have a programming background to continue to grow with the market. Operations isn't just operators, it includes DBAs, HelpDesk, Network engineers, Tech Support, System Administration, etc.... Certification can be important once you find what area you want to work.
In that case I'm a consultant because I always say how they should fix those windows boxes, but I can't for the life of me figure out how.
There's a LOT of technical professionals out of work right now, suffering from the dot com crash. It's not just recent graduates, so you have to realize that your 2 years of coop experience and 4 year degree is competing with some engineer who's been laid off from Sun and has 10 or more years experience directly in the trenches.
Not only are you competing against people who are a lot more senior in the field, you are competing for a very limited number of positions at this time, since the work force far outstrips the available jobs. I myself have been looking for work since being laid off from Sun last november, and have been lucky to even get RESPONSES to my resumes let alone interviews, and I'm a very experienced, very savvy ex Sun engineer with a lot of interesting projects and accomplishments on my resume... yet I now find myself applying for very junior jobs at a third of my old salary just because unemployment only lasts so long... and then I get that weird look from the hiring manager and the inevitable question "why are YOU applying for this job". Of course they won't hire me because they're worried I'll flee back to a more lucrative job once the economy recovers.
All I can say is that you need to make yourself stand out. I've discovered pursuing job leads via email is a dead end, use snail mail and personal appearances. Leverage your networking skills (people networking, not TCP/IP). Meet people face to face, press the flesh, and don't give up. It's a HARD economy for us geeks out there right now.
Also, don't overlook the benefit to volunteering your time doing things you enjoy. Not only does it give back to the community and make you feel good, but it gives you a chance to meet even more people and who knows, one of those people might know someone who's looking for someone just like you.
-- Gary F.
Not a single one...hummm... I'm just wondering.... have you ever thought maybe you just don't know what the fuck you're doing. Maybe you're no good at computer stuff. Maybe you can't write a good resume or cover letter.
I don't mean to be so negative, but sometimes you have to step back and look at reality.
Go see a headhunter...they get you a job somewhere. It may suck, but money is money, eh?
© 2004 The SCO Group, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Ok, degrees are good. Certifications are good (except for MS certs, they are the equivalent of memorizing the state capitals). But spouting all kinds of letters at any HR or IT person is just that- spouting. If you have a Novell cert and have no Novell experience, guess what, no impact.
Base point- don't bother getting a cert in something you have no experience in or have no near-term expectation of getting experience in.
I once interviewed a guy who just got his MCSE and came to our job fair. When he didn't fit any of our offerings (IA, networking, RF), he said he would take a janitor's job if available!
Face it kiddies, the dot boom is gone, and you may just have to work a little bit to get a good job. By good job I mean something besides being a 8-5 drone.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Speaking as someone who has been involved in hiring in the IT area, please have someone check your resume! The quality of resumes I've reviewed, even from the ostensibly english speaking, has been dreadful. I'm not just referring to por speling and; gramatical misteaks, but logical construction and effective use of the language are sorely lacking.
If you don't have any friends involved in the hiring process who can take a look at your resume and cover letter, at least have some of your more verbally able classmates go over them. Your college's career center may also be of help.
Yours truly,
Jeffrey Boulier
If you go for a job with similiar creds and experience as someone else, and they like you both... it may just come down to the fact that the other person has that X certification. It doesnt hurt to get them.
Lets get one thing straight. They do help, and anyone that tells you they don't is either jealous or bent 3 ways to sunday because they know someone that has one that is a fool. Well guess that goes with anything. No one remembers the MCSE/CCA/CCNA/Inet+ guy that knew his shit. They only remember the one that asked them what a managed switch was. Here is the skinny. Certifications are good for 2 things. #1 they are resume fodder, period end of story. They don't show you "know your stuff" but they do show you took the time, the effort, and at least have the ability to absorb it. We hired a SysAdmin last month and I can tell you anyone without at least and MCSE did not even get a call. Why? Because we had people with 8+ years exp on NT, 4+ on unix, and large network with Certs across the board. So if you think they don't matter your clueless. They do matter in getting your foot in the door, believe it. I am talking at a shop with over 20 international locations, and 300 plus nt servers. There is no way we are going to even see someone if they did not take the time to pull a MCSE out of their hat. Second, if gives you a broad base to pull from in and experience world you know what you have touched, period. You don't know anything about anything you have not seen or worked on. Granted you might be able to do it, that is fine but how do I know that. The certs at least give you a baseline of knowledge as low as it may be and lets us know you put some time in and stuck with something.
For everyone that did not have an MSCE we just flung in the bit bucket, sorry but that is the ropes bud, and if it is easy to get... roll out and get one. So you can get it easy you say, well put some time in and do it. You don't want to because it is worth nothing? Fine we don't want you working here. Pretty simple. We don't hire people without them because to us it is like asking if you have a high school diploma. MCSE/CCNA is the bottom line that we look for, not the clincher.
My advice, get a helpdesk job. Prove your skills, hone them for 30k a year and put some exp under your belt and crank out the certs on the side before you get out of your study habbits. Before long you will see the light that you are searching for, but there is no easy road. Microsoft might not be the way, cisco might not be the way, but get out there and give it some time. People telling you a cert is not good most of the time don't have one. People that tell you a college degree is worthless most of the time don't have one. Trust me when I tell you that they are both important and are just part of what you need to land that job.
Experience, Degree, Certs, and for god sakes a nice suit are all things that will help. Network in your helpdesk job, you will see things drop in your lap when the time is right.
Good luck.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
I'm a consultant (hiss, boo), and we and our clients place more emphasis on degrees than on certs, unless the person has proven experience in that field. As long as you don't use certs as a gimmick, then they are ok, but too many people have used them in the past just to get the letters.
In IT, there is only one rule- know what you claim to know. If you don't know it, be honest and say you don't but you will learn it, and you are willingly to put in extra hours to learn it. (But only say that if you are willing to actually do that) That's how I got my job- I didn't know the stuff they wanted (I was straight out of college), but I seriously said I would learn whatever they wanted, and I did.
End statement- no longer is there a shortcut to quick bucks now, you may actually have to work now.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
You say your having problems finding a Job. This is how i got a good position as a Sr. Systems Analyst. I was poor and only had construction experience and didn't see a bright future. So, i went into the Navy and was trained as a hardware technician (basic and advanced electronics). While in the Navy I had the opportunity to learn unix and become a sysadmin as well. When i got out in 1998 i went into a company as a hardware tech/sys admin and moved up from there.
With your Degree you can apply for Officer Training and become an officer in a tech field (i would suggest the Air Force, better Officer tech programs) and do a minimum of 4 to 6 years and get out and possibly be a Junior Exec. But of course this may not be in your Career progression desires. Just a thought. It is a Job that pays.
Regards.
I see lots of "Certs are no good!" complaints. Give me a tissue please, I'm all out.
/she can take for the week, Friday night 7pm, 2 resumes sitting on desk. Both with same amount of experience, same required salary, same risk, etc...
Let's say an employer has had all the interviews he
But one has a relevant cert and the other does not. My guess is that unless the hirer has a personal favorite already, the cert will get picked up and the other tossed to the trash bin.
The postings here seem to intimate that owning a cert is a brand of inexperience. Another way to look at it is does having a cert damage one's reputation or experience in some way ?
Given that certs cost money (some of them cost lots!) does this really just make a divide between the haves and have-nots ? i.e., I wouldn't have been able to get a cert if I had not been hired into IT first.
Someone has never played with SAP R/3, it would appear.
180some tables, and this one isn't all that big. About 4-8 of the tables have roughly 30 million records each. The majority of the others have several thousand records, few are truly small. I'm told, that this is far from being the largest SAP database out there, and I get the distinct impression that my coworker means something along the lines of "twice, even three times as big as ours".
Ah, the frustrations of being a lowly little helpdesk ijit. *frown*
Me, I would think I'd call those "database admins" and network architect, respectively.
Don't waste your time looking for a Computer Science job right now. You overlook those positions that will pay you the money you need while you look for your niche job.
I got my job through the back way. I started out as a receptionist, of all things. The position demonstrated that I had massive communication skills. I got to know the CEO, all of the VP's, and all of the managers of all of the branches. Then I caught the attention of the IT director.
I sent him my resume', it was sparse but he didn't care. I haven't even finished college, I have no certifications, but I know patience. It took time, working in a hellhole in front of a call-monitor. The IT director would walk by, I'd talk to him about technical things and he'd quiz me on miscellaneous things. We developed a good working relationship before he even hired me.
He hired me at a rate that was significantly lower than what the work I did usually earned. I didn't care, because my foot was in the door. I spent time with the department, I went out of my way to do things. I got noticed by the other higher-ups. They were pleasantly surprised that this talkative kid that sat behind the call-monitor was actually a really good computer-nerd.
I was given salary this year. I still have no certifications. There are few certifications that I actually respect. To me, the best certification is that Lamb's Skin you get after 4 years of dedicated work. To me, the best way to utilize it is by being patient, having humility, and looking for any oppurtunity of getting your foot in the door.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
find a small company that doesn't have an in-house IT guy/department. if you live close to a large city, manufacturing plants are about your best bet. now, this part is important: walk in and present them with your resume. don't just mail it. explain to them that you have the skills and that you want to apply them. offer to be their IT guy, whether it be full or part time. explain to them why an in-house IT guy is better to have than outsourcing it (better system design, more homogenous setup, not having to call outside for help, etc.). most plants will be open to this. offer to do it for a low salary (yeah, it's not what you think you're worth, but it's better than what you're making now). use that as your jumping off point when you move onto your next job.
i did that when i was 16, and it's what helped me get to my current job. trust me, if you can swallow your pride, it will work.
"Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue"
:)
It may seem like an asset to be good at a lot of different IT tasks but the fact remains that you are probably applying for a specific job try focusing your efforts into one area of your knowledge. Also you have to remember there is a top of competition out thier. I am trying to hire a web developer and I am getting resumes from ex CTO's of start up's asking for less money than I make. So don't be discouraged by the lack of response it's not just happening to those getting out of college. oh yeah also remember that employers that hire people because they have certain certifications have no clue what they need from an employee that's why they are asking for the cert
I like things that are sweet and not things that are lame. --
Get your Death Certification. In other words, kill yourself.
Go ahead, read all the comments. You'll see the same thing that I found out from experience. No one cares about your education. No one cares about certifications. They want to know if you can THINK.
Unfortunately, managers are not able to tell a good thinker any more than desert hyenas can tell a good ice skater, so they substitute experience. Two years of experience isn't enough. You'd have a tough time with four years or more in this economy, but below that, you have 0% chance.
"Working in IT is a tax on people poor at math."
You can't get more experience, since no one will hire you. Like I said, the best thing for anyone new to IT is to get their DC. It doesn't take a lot of money for fees, study guides, or classes, and if you fail the first time, you can try again as many times as you need to.
Just hope there's no afterlife. Dying and waking up somewhere else is like getting your MCSE and applying to Be.
I was just about to say that! SAP/R3 is LOADED with more tables than you can imagine.
-Cnik
sorry kido - anyone who has any type of IT/CS job in the bay area right now barely servived the layoffs going around. so basically your shit out of luck because no one can afford/is looking to hire new people in that industry - if your serious about continuing on the path you have chosen - then my advice would be to move to penn. since they are just starting there "tech boom" and hiring a lot of IT/CS people and maybe in a couple years new york will be hiring once they get there buildings put back together and need to fill them with people. (no offense to 9/11 tender hearts)
Ave Molech Setting
Lets face it, the excesses of the last few years created an artificially high salary expectation for many of the "IT professionals" out there.
The tables have turned and the interchangeable, marginally skilled, wet-behind the ears coder-gods out of college are on the cheap now.
We look for people who are basically irreplaceable and strategic to our business support functions. We are not a development house, we need IT to keep our corporate machine running.
My advice to you if you need a job bad. go where the jobs are.
Most people refuse to move to places like Cleveland, Des Moines, Memphis, St. Louis. Crikey, there's tons of jobs out there that need filling, that an H1B could still get.
Sure you don't get the studio apartment on the upper east side with a doorman and water-view but then again, you can own 2 cars, a house and a dog and eat in the same month out there.
There's jobs out there, don't go looking to Monster, or even the paper, go to user group meetings, vendor meetings etc. network with your collegiate friends, call everybody you know and tell them to look out for you.
Lastly, go do some non-profit work, why not.. you're twiddling your thumbs waiting for the phone to ring, do some good. You ain't gonna do it when you're employed, checking your 401k value every 2 hours.
Good luck.
p.s. I think alot of IT geeks are spoiled prima-donna's who don't deserve those high salaries with a crap 4 yr degree in CS. I prefer guys with degrees in Math or Engineering who can code well, at least they are equipped to think in a different discipline to solve problems.
p.p.s. not all of you, just some egotistical IT freaks I know. Some of you are decent, hard working, punctual, civilized human beings.
very bitter HR manager - IT personnel costs almost killed us 3 years ago.
So I'll probably side step it as well. OK, maybe just a few rants...
More than your lack of certifications, (and although most slashdotters will probably have kittens at this statement) your problem is your degree. I should preface this by saying that I have a degree and change in a natural science, and that I was only a few units short of C-Sci degree. But in my little corner of the world, a C-Sci degree on the resume is a direct ticket into the trashcan. Sorry folks, rant all you want, but that's the way it is in almost every company I have worked with and for. We even give an MIS degree more weight (just enough to read it first and laugh before we toss it in the trash, in contrast to the direct route). Our company is 20% IT, and 50% of them are "programmers" (and we're currently trying to hire more). Of that lot, there are only two of us who have *any* type of degree, although we both put ourselves through school doing the work (and neither of us are "programmers")
If guidance counselors knew the first thing about the real world and the job market, they wouldn't still be crappy guidance counselors. I used to work at the University, I know what goes on there. I spent my time in the C-Sci department, although admittedly I did sleep through most of it. But a C-Sci degree teaches you only one thing, how to survive in the academic computer world. Now there may be schools out there with decent departments that graduate cluefull students. In fact, I must infer that they exist. It's just that I've never seen one, nor met anyone so blessed. But learning the ins and outs of the Minix kernel means jack when accounting wants a custom module to track the new 401k deferrals, or the boss wants to merge the shipping and sales applications, and sell online.
Most college grads don't want to hear this. The guidance folks and the industry reps (a la MS) have been sitting around, passing the hashpipe and telling you all that as soon as you graduate you'll make six figures and get eight months vacation. WRONG! You have to start at the bottom and work your way up. While I understand that the American dream is a shortcut to wealth and prosperity, you need to wake up. Some of us put at least a decade into crummy jobs. I get punks in here all the time who want my job without working for it.
Forget wasting time on certifications. And since you've already wasted four or more years in the chair at school, you're four years behind. Go out and get a job, any job, that pays anything. Some of us didn't own cars when we started, lived in the ghetto, and ate potato(e)s. If in five years you still can't manage to find a decent job, then come and cry to slashdot about how unfair life is.
I'm sure there'll be several people exagerating their accomplishments and saying "not so, I got X job right out of school." To them I say, "Congratulations, I hope you appreciate it. Consider yourself lucky."
With the economy doing the slow spiral down the bowl, geeks are a dime a dozen. Heck, I feel bad for the last guy we hired. He relocated from Houston to get the job, and he gets paid *half* what I do. Dude works in a gas station to augment his income! Right now is pretty much the time that the pointy haired ones are bending the IT folks over the desks in the NOC. It's all in the timing, and unfortunately, yours sucks.
Sorry dude. Wish there was better news. But if I had the ultimate control over time and space to grant all graduates great jobs, I sure as hell wouldn't be sitting around wanking on slashdot...
UugaBuuga
Mate, you've had 2 years of coop experience. If you're like me and do 4 or 8 month coop terms, that means you've had between 3 and 6 jobs in the industry already - are NONE of those companies willing to hire you back? That's the goal of coop!
Obviously your resumes aren't written well enough. A smartly written resume can get you a interview without ANY qualifications or experience. I got 4 interviews and got offerred all 4 jobs based on three things. A KILLER resume. A portfolio (show 2 or 3 programs, and you are miles ahead of everyone else) A great interview (a whole different subject) Notice the total lack of emphasis on qualifications? You do not need them to get a job. btw, don't use internet job searches, look in the local paper for the really small ads from smaller companies, that way you can get interviews with the bosses not some HR drone.
I work with a database that has, as of now, 926 tables.
500 tables is NOT a lot for an enterprise database.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Your post didnt say what field you are looking for work in but as a web developer (not designer) credentials and certifications mean nothing.
It all comes down to the fact that the people who are teaching these certifications all use the same style. Objective, grade, tests and evaluation.
I have yet to see a meaningful certification where a person takes a little bit of theory and is then assigned to a project to figgure out how it really works when you're trying to accomplish a task.
The problem is without experience you dont know jack about programming. You could do 5 doctorates in various cs fields but you still wouldnt know anything about real world programming.
This is especially true in windows programming where different os versions and dll levels mean everything. and im not even going to get into cross-browser scripting.
So whats the answer... What will make you money in the smallest timeframe... the answer, start a company. Theres a ton of money out there that will PAY YOU to start a company and you need not interview for it. There are available grants from everyone and their dog for small businesses.
This way you get experience and money (allbeit not a lot right away) and you'll make contacts galore so if your business goes under you have like 50 professional contacts to fall back on.
...and you can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" or "alot" and "a lot"?
That is sick. I really hope you don't get hired until you clean up your communication skills.
I am on two sides of this topic. On one hand, when I wanted to move away from my last job in a state university IT department, I found I needed to have a cert (CCNA in my case) just to get an interview. Now that I have the job, a cert is fine depending on how old it is, but I like to see the actual experience. I have an engineer working for me who is a Cert King, but I am still leery of having him handle anything more complex than programming a data switch. He has been in situations where his previous certs (Master CNE, MCSE, CCNA/DA) should have helped, but he still asks basic questions that he should already know.
Get the experience, and leaven with certs wisely. Cisco is still the best for networking, and Microsoft has some good points for desktop/NT/Windows. The college degree did not go for naught since you gained a good base in problem solving (I hope!) that is more important than the certs.
I think, therefore I am - Rene Descartes; I yam what I yam, an' that's what I yam - Popeye
I think this whole outsourcing trend really underscores the value of cheap coders. If a country like India can churn out tens of thousands of cheap C++/Java coders, how hard can it be to teach the rudimentary stuff?
When you commoditize something like this, its time for US programmers to see the writing on the wall and differentiate themselves.
Time for *more* education, maybe a MS in biochem + comp-sci to push you into the burgeoning biotech industry?
The valuable IT employees we have are the ones that *understand* our business and not their server schematics.
My counterparts on wall street love the quant guys who know physics and math, but also code.
I think programming/developing is headed to a interdisciplinary level. If you are IT professional who knows the shipping logisitics and difficult theoretical scheduling algorithms, i'd take you over Joe New Delhi.
Recessions suck.. totally..
I graduated in the last recession. I had a tech degree and an MBA from a top school, good grades..etc..
After sending out something like 1000 resumes, I got a job offer. It was for something like $20K/
year. I recounted this story a couple years ago
during the dot.boom and people had already forgot
the last recession, and thought that I must have
been a total retard to not have gotten 50 job
offers upon graduation without any effort...
..reality bites..
My advice from this experience would be that
looking for jobs during recessions is not worth
the effort if it can be possibly avoided/postponed.
Because even if you do find a job, you will be
at a lowball salary rate, and probably wrong job
for your career path, and then will have a dog
of a time switching back to the right stream
/salary later when things get better.
Instead, take this opportunity to go to grad
school, or travel around the world, if you have
/can borrow the money. In a few years, things
will turn around again (provided they get rid of
the H1Bs out of the country who are sucking the
jobs away), and it will be easy to get a good
job with good pay, and the extra study/travel
is something you probably wont get the chance to
to again after your career starts..
"Guaranteed Contract"
Management wants to have all the choices. Sorry. Those choices shouldn't be free.
"If you want this hard-won knowledge applied to your product, this employee wants a two-year guaranteed contract. If your company fails to keep him/her employed during that time, you will still be obligated to pay their salary."
If they balk, then they probably planned on laying people off early. If they REALLY planned to fulfill even the most minimal obligation to an employee, they should sign without hesitation.
They'll balk. Therefore, it doesn't make any difference what certifications someone has.
If they don't balk, it should at least shut down most of the "I feel like it" layoffs.
Gotta love knee-jerk reactions, as they seem to be the majority of /. posts. I'm the first to admit that the usual grammar/spelling/punctuation corrections serve only as personal attacks distracting from the issue at hand, but if you had taken the time to actually think about the post, you would realize that this one is completely relevant and called-for. One has to call into question the thinking processes of someone who would completely miss the irony of the original post. Here's a hint: read, think, understand, then post.
"We are far too easily pleased." --C.S. Lewis
It's times like these when "down, not across" seems like a good thing to know...
--
perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
The easiest way to sum all of the fuss about getting a new job would be to show a potential boss that you can think. I have applied for many jobs in which the competition was 'fierce' but in reality it's no more 'fierce' than in other industries. There are thousands of jobs starting at 40k+ a year. (Canadian money... so like nothing in American :)). Basically it comes down to what your worth. People who come out of university, (IMHO) think they are worth much more than they truely are. They may indeed be worth a lot of money but if they are unproven, they should not be expecting 60k+ jobs when they graduate. Stuggle with a lower wage and it will pay off in a year or so.
To be perfectly honest, the company I am with does not hire a vast majority of university graduates. It takes us too long to have to train them and we get too many egotists which will not work in a team setting. ( Anybody who thinks they can develop a huge ass program without errors by themselves is kidding themselves ). You need to have proven skills besides being 'just' a coder or a monkey tester. In most cases you will be expected to perform many duties such as on-site implementation, doing presentations on behalf of the company, or simply talking to people in your business. If you only want to code... chances are you will be replaced in short order by somebody who has more ambition or skills in other areas than you do. So remember, that getting your job does not ensure that you will be staying there for long... most of the techies who got dropped during the tech boom are very eager to replace you.
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. Maybe it was just because they didn't like you. Or maybe it's because you can't spell.
We have seen the demand increase markedly in recent months for Amiga Certified Software Engineers. This is a free test which is quick to do if you know the subject matter thoroughly - it is highly respected as it is difficult to achieve. Credit and distinction level certifications are available. The test was created by the official Amiga Qualifications Working Group, and is endorsed by the Industry Council Open Amiga and by Amiga University. See http://www.users.bigpond.com/james.jacobs/amigan.h tml for more information.
I am not sure what the slashdot crowd has against certifications. Here is my two cents
1. Find something that you are interested in
2. Find out if there are any certs associated with that interest
3. If there are go for it
The chances that you will be hired based on the certification alone are very very slim. However, you should not get a cert in hopes of landing your dream job. If you do believe that a piece of paper is going to land you your dream job you will be very disappointed. The value of the cert is that it may help you to get an interview and in this shitty job market anything that you can do to increase your chances is a good thing besides a cert will never hurt your chances so what do you have to lose. There are some people (especially on slashdot) who will tell you that they will never hire a person who has his/her MC**. It has been my experience that the people who do not hire based on a cert are as few and far between as people who hire based solely on a cert. It is incredibly naive to think that a person will be a good or bad employee. I have had MCSE's work for me who have sucked but I have also had some really knowledgeable ones as well. The same goes for employees who have no certification. Besides would you really want to work for some jackass who thinks that you are worthless because you took some certification classes/test etc.
Finally, no matter which cert you pursue you will learn things that you did not know before sitting down and studying for the exams. I am willing to bet that there are very very few people who would ace each and every exam. Learning more about the products and/or services that you are interested in is never a bad idea.
-fluff
It's the ecconomy, stupid.
I've got 10 years under my belt from helldesk to sysadmin to managing a small IT dept. I've worked with alot of stuff in that time and I can't find a job... I don't have a degree (wasted a few years switching majors) or certs. I have encountered one potential employer after another that knows certs aren't a good measure of being able to do the job, but they CAN demand them given the maket, so they do. So getting certs for knowledge isn't really the best use of your time, but just adding collections of letters to your resume seems to be important. I guess I'm ranting... My advice is to get as many easy, but not too easy certs as you can... skip garbage like A+ and get semi-easy ones like CCNA, MCSE, CNA, etc... stuff like CCIE or the security certs are things you can get later when someone is paying you to get them. But to be realistic, look to helpdesk for you first job out of college and look for smaller companies (use networking! does you sisters friend's family businees need someone?)... Everyone starts at the bottom in IT... helpdesk work will seem like hell, until you're baby sitting a whole company of whiners and you try and remember when you used to like computers...
It is important to stand out, but you don't want to come off as strange. Having a well formatted resume is important. Your resume should be broad enough to target a range of positions (or you can have a few different versions to target different sorts of positions). If you have an internal advocate, send your resume to them (and if appropriate list them as a reference). Otherwise, get your resume in early , come hiring time everyone is overworked and after the first 50 to 100 resumes, the managers and HR types are burnt out and you won't get a fair look.
Personal delivery works best if you give it to a friend who works there and have him/her do the delivery for you from the inside. That will go over better. The time for glad handing is the interview and just after you get the job. Don't just show up at a job site to drop off your resume unless you know the people there very well, and even then keep it quick. Going through a long show of dropping off the resume may look weird and put them off.
I have landed four jobs through people I knew professionally or personally.
I'm currently doing system administration on *NIX and Win2k boxes for a small Web hosting and design company. I like my job, and it was sure a long time getting here.
It all started when I moved to Cleveland, Ohio. I knew a guy who's family owned an ISP. He informed me of an opening in dial-up support, which I was able to get because of my communication skills and my experience in the computer labs at my university. [Job 1] I was only there for about four months, at which time I moved back to Indianapolis.
About 15 months after leaving Cleveland, I got a phone call from one of my former co-workers in Cleveland. The company that acquired the ISP in Cleveland had also acquired a company here in Indy and they were hiring Web hosting support people. So, I landed that job with the help of a personal recommendation from one of the managers (former co-worker in Cleveland) in the department. [Job 2]
Two co-workers in the Web hosting group decided to quit their jobs and work full-time for their own Web design firm. They later added hosting to their business and eventually found themselves needing to hire someone to administrate their servers and support their customers. I had great rapport with these guys so they hired me when I was ready to leave the big Web hosting company. [Job 3]
Between Job 1 and Job 2, I spent a short period of time working for a big ISP here in Indy. I got it through my friend Andy who was working there at the time. [Job 4] It was a shitty job I took after moving back from Cleveland.
The moral of my story is that you should not forget who you know and what they know. Personal connections are often the best way to get work.
I disagree. He qualified his statement with:
...if you get to hundreds of tables, you need to look at what you're doing wrong.
;-)
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
I keep hearing many tech support position are being outsourced to India and recently colleagues of mine are telling me their newly college grad or even high school grad just landed this nice job as a Sys Admin or network admin for nice sized companies for like half the going rate. but since they are green they dont know any better and companies are thrilled.
Thats gotta hurt us all more than anything.
I'm an Internet programmer, VB, Java, XML, all the usual suspects. I was laid off several months ago, but was able to get 3 job offers within about 4 months. The key for me was following up. When I responded to a posting I sent several emails and faxes, but never called. I always said something like "I know your receiving a lot of applicants so I want to reiterate my interest and qualifications...". I got several interviews that way. Every employeer said the same thing, "I have hundreds of applications and I didn't want to go through them all". Make sure that you stand out by following up.
Another technique that an employer told me got their attention was when I respoded to posting via email I would put A normal subject line, such as, "RE: Software Engineering Position", then add something like "Strong Candidate". So the subject said "Software Engineering Position - Strong Candidate". That helped to make me stand out when thier in box was full of applicants.
In my experience ther are positions out there you just need to get their attention.
Well I have the first sun7 test.
Learned Linux on my own.
Suffered during carrer change.
Picked up entry level job.
Got another entry level job (with better future prospects) through a friend.
2 years pass.
Directly responsible for (Admin) 8 webservers and 3 email servers and *god help me* moving a pretty big production server room across town
Sr Admin doesnt document a thing and has awful communication skills. *VENT*
Im pretty damn lucky to be working now where I am.
I may be a buyers' market right now in North America or Europe, but in other places, the supply and demand is more balanced.
Take places like China or Singapore or Brazil, there are still great demand for skilled techies.
If you think your skill is not appreciated in the States, try China, Singapore or even South Africa.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
..that I became a Y2K consultant..
They told me it was a job for life!!!!
Burma?
Some of those certs are around the 5000$ figures. Just for a year's worth of course. They're bloody expensive...
I graduated Jan 2002 with CS degree from a big university in Boston area, (let's not mention the name), and moved to San Jose area around Jan 2002 and haven't been able to find the lowest job in the IT food chain jobs. The recession sucks. Damn it.
I personally think Certs are for "many" people who want short cuts, and therefore are very much interested in having IT jobs with a lot of money but really doesn't have a clue about computing. Many of them just don't have any real interests in computer technologies but only in the dollar signs. I just got pissed off at these people and the H1B people because I worked so damn hard in college to learn as much as possible the in's and out's of computer technologies and can't even find a job. By the way, I had a summer internship with a big name company, a couple of IT jobs at my school, and took almost all of the graduate classes for graduate students while I was still an undergrad. I graduated with way above 3.0 GPA both on my major or accummulated. I do use a variety of OS systems, and write this while in my Linux box (I find it really funny that some CS students don't ever even bother to try Linux/Unix and they consider themselves CS people. They miss out.) . I am not like one of those monkey coders. I do know how to program and know my shit. I know more than the average CS graduated BA students at my school and other schools. Not only that, I've tried to acquire or at least become familiar with a variety of skills because I read the damn good book "The Pragmatic Programmer". I have true interests in computer technologies and have invested tons of money to buy so many O'Reiley books and other technical books beside my school textbooks. I have spent so many hours to set up/play with this and that.
Anyway, I haven't even bothered to look for jobs for the last month or so, it is just pointless. The hiring managers are blinded deaf illiterate suckers. The HR people are unbelievable dummies and have no idea of what the people they are hiring doing. I just don't understand why companies place hiring decisions on these HR people while they can't even tell the differences between C and C++. I agree with some of the comments in this thread of messages. I believe the companies are better off to hire people who are passionate about computer technologies because they will live and breathe with them. These people in the long run will make excellent contributions to the companies' growths, but make sure hire the ones who know their shits, and don't base on the Certs. With or without Certs, these passionate for computer technologies people will always come out on top on their respective computing fields.
Peace out to the unemployed recent CS graduate students. Sorry for ranting.
Last but not least, I virtually don't have any contacts or connections here, how do I even ever find a job in my field? I just don't want to go to work for no brainer jobs.
Most IT job postings are bogus. They're either
from bodyshops trolling for resumes or companies
just feeling out the labor market, or playing other games. Maybe if you changed your name to Rashid (or some other indian sounding name) you might have better luck. No kidding.
I don't have a degree. I know how to program like a bitch. I can do programming type things people with CS degrees can't. I earn more money than my colleagues with degrees. Universtiy? Pah.
from (UK based) IT recruitment agencies nearly every day, offering £££ for developers?
Even the company I left 6 months ago is recruiting for senior developers again.
Is this squeeze just a US thing?
Bush the first was the one who said he wanted the US to be "less like the simpson" (well-off, in work with nice material possessions) "and more like the waltons" (in the middle of the great depression with no wealth to speak of).
Why???
When will people learn that BS degrees will not get you programming jobs? They do when the economy is going strong and companies are desperate to hire, but put yourself in the shoes of an employer who has 20 people to pick from to fill one position: do you pick the college grad who doesn't even have a clue what MSVC++ is, or do you pick the dude with a trade school, who has learned all about COM, .NET, MS development tools, IIS, ASP, scripting languages, etc?
College is NOT meant to get you a job. A BS education is supposed to get you ready for an MS. (Which is supposed to get you ready for a PhD.) College education is with research work in mind from day one. People who go to college with the idea that they will end up with a job out of it need to do a LOT of work on the side learning API's, languages, databases, OS's, technologies, and keep up with the industry all on their own. You can't expect to get a job otherwise.
And once and for all, everyone cut the certification bullshit. Certifications are completely useless and all they do is show how lowly you think of yourself; they will NEVER get you a job if you have a single person competing against you who has a grain of enthusiasm and confidence.
Well, having been a hiring manager now for several years and having hired both, people with certs, and people with actual experience, give me the people with experience any day.
.02
I've hired my fair share of degreed, certified individuals that ended up looking blankly at the monitor when I've asked them to do something that I've grown very wary when interviewing.
Get some time under your belt. Do some projects at work (complete them!) so you'll have something more substantial than "Monitored server farm..." on your resume.
Look for things that interest you and become well versed in them (IT security being really hot right now and for the forseeable future wouldn't be bad).
And after all that is said and done, or while doing so....finish your your degree and then worry about certifications.
My
"All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none)."
I can only laugh at this inane comment. To think that studying for a degree is a walk in the park is really quite pathetic. To suggest that all students have to do to get a degree is skim over a couple of good books and regurgitate the information in a 2 hour exam is ludicrous!!
More than anything, studying for any degree teaches anyone that gets through good time and workload management. Believe me. Anyone that gets a CS degree has to be able to code aswell, they just wouldn't get past their second year, let alone get four years done. I'm getting to my second year at glasgow university and we've been using Ada95, C, x86 assembly, MC68k assembly, and haskell. Next year we do a hell of a lot more (and I mean, a hell of a lot more, like no time for a social life AT ALL kind of a lot more) C, and Java too. Thats aswell as learning about databases and SQL, human-computer interaction, computer systems (we're talking processors, registers, buses & interrupts here), graphics and multimedia (generic term, i know), and much more next year, the topics of which I can't remember. Also next year I have to participate in a pretty large team project that lasts the length of the year, we have to code something, document it properly and conduct presentations on it too. And, between my third and fourth years, also go on a summer work placement.
Now, thats not nearly a complete list of what we look at IN DETAIL, but it gives you some idea of SOME of the stuff we look at. To say 'I have a degree, I'm guaranteed a job' is bullshit, I know, but to cast it off completely and say a degree just says you know how to pass the exam, is also bullshit.
Please think about the extreme amount of work that goes into achieving a degree before saying anything like that again.
It's who you know, not what you know
Comment: Perhaps one thing you overlooked is contacting all those companies you did coop with? At any rate, you seem to me like a technicaly-capable guy, but are obviously lacking human skills (no offense meant).
Anyhow, papers (CS degree or certification, they're the same, really) may or may not mean anything to an employer, depending on where you apply and who you talk to.
This being said, I will refute what other people in this thread have said about employers wanting to see that you can think for yourself. Know who you are talking to! If your upcoming boss is the kind of introverted geek who has even less faith in his technical skills than in his womanizing skills, anyone that seems to know anything that he doesn't know will be percieved as competition and immediately shelved! Insecure bosses hire dramaticaly lesser drones for fear of competition, it's a fact.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
The real problem is that jobs are unavailable. If a system goes down or something small needs to be coded up, instead of calling a graduate who'll have to work out how their system is constructed, they'd rather call a guy that's worked on their system before OR a guy that's worked on similar systems before (READ: experience). That way when the new recruit walks in the door he'll head straight for the right machine, issue a few commands and be done in 5 minutes.
A graduate on the other hand will see 15 Cisco 12016's, 20 Sun E15000 servers 8 feet tall, ten 5TB RAID systems and just simply gawk at it and be too afraid to do anything (although I'll admit it's worse to have someone who *thinks* he knows what he's doing). Haskell, C or Customers -> Products > Orders database design simply won't cut it in this environment, and employers know it.
If you're a good graduate (sounds like you are) they would have trained you up (it sounds like you can hit the ground running though), but in the current environment this simply ain't gonna happen (because there's no ground to run on).
To be honest, I felt the same way as you when I graduated, but a million lines of Visual C++ code is even now very daunting to me. As conselation, you'll know exactly how computers work when you graduate, and how routers and SDH/SONET/fibrechannel actually work on the inside, laughably inefficient RIP, better IGRP, EIGRP, BGP4, spanning tree, unfortunately this knowledge is targetted to telcos who are SCREWED. Take it from me, having all this knowledge trashed makes you feel like sh**t. From your knowledge it sounds like it'll take only 3 months to train you to advanced CCIE level, but I'm afraid nobody cares. C and Java will get you nowhere unless you lie on your CV (which all but the most naive person does). Form your own Limited Company (costs 200 quid) and say you're "The Head of Programming", sit on your ass for a couple of years and then say that you have 2 years of experience in whatever skills you want. By your tone it sounds like your IQ >> 120 so you can get away with this lie. Show your mate's address on your reference so they don't get suspicious when your reference address = your own home address. You can lie and say the company has 100 employees, half the commpanies fake their size on client visits anyway by renting extra office space for 1 day and getting schoolkids in to talk on dead phones, unfortunately I can't find the article again that says this. Sorry kiddo, your only other option is to do accountancy.
Score: -2, Matrix violation, this level of knowledge about *the true system* is not allowed. Agent Smith will see to your needs. Only the blue pill can save you now.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Well, apparently, from what I read here at /., no Computer Science Engineering graduates work or have ever worked at Microsoft so don't bother applying for a job there.
Only work for the fun of it. Things come and go, but a fun job is heaven. Good Luck!
How about being a big fish in a smaller pond? Get out of San Jose, it is flooded with people like you. How about going to a smaller city that would appreciate a gung-ho Boston boy like yourself?
Remember, if you are having trouble getting work it probably means there are lots of people just as good or better than you with EXPERIENCE who are laidoff and looking too. Don't be so quick to slander others, it hurts you in the end.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If you have a BS in comp sci you should be able to understand the basics of engineering (you did take science classes right and didn't just take humanities?). You may have to take some undergrad classes but if you get your ms in engineering in some form you have more flexibility with your job choices.
get a ms in ME or civil or EE or chemE. there are always jobs in those areas besides IT.
when the job market is low, you aren't missing much, might as well get a masters which is more valuable in the long term than some certificaton since your masters NEVER EXPIRES, heck its something you put after your name!
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it?
Uh, I see nothing in the original question that says he can't code. I don't know where you got that from. He does say that he doesn't care if the job he gets is programming or not, just computer related.
remember, no matter how you rehash it, you still end up with elitism. whether you do it as a honor society, college "greek societies", or your adventures of popularity in secondary schools, it is the same thing. Riding coattails too often will make you the kind that cannot make a decision on your own when needed, which is a very valuable asset in the job market.
sethstorm, slaying elitism regularly.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Certs seem only to help with large companies who are doing a menu approach to hiring. If they want 3 certs, x years experiance with a certian tech then they will hold out for that even if you have 2 of 3 and x+y experiance.
I applied for many places that said they wanted what I had but only a couple even called me. I ended up finding my current job because this company was buying the furniture at the now dead dot-bomb I was working at the time. They bought the furniture, some servers, rented the building and I came along as a bonus!
Bouncings wrote:
First of all, no databases are 500+ tables. I'm serious. There aren't databases that big out there in real world applications.
I don't know about your real world, but in mine they aren't uncommon. I work in a mid-sized company (about 140 employees), and we have more than one database with almost that many tables. Representing a complex system can easily take 100-200 tables. Take three such systems that need to interact, and you have 500+ tables. Many companies achieve this (eg a merchant with accounting, inventory and CRM systems).
If you are getting pasta[sic] few dozen, you need to start using table domains
What do you mean "table domains"? SQL domains have to do with field types, not tables, and I don't see what they have to do with managing lots of tables.
and if you get to hundreds of tables, you need to look at what you're doing wrong.
No, you just have a reasonably complex system, i.e. you are in the real world.
And what if you are working for a company of 100 people? You need to design a network of 1000+ seats to be a "designer?"
The person you were responding to had an annoying, elitist tone. I certainly wouldn't say you need what he's talking about to be a "real" programmer/DBA/Designer/whatever. On the other hand, if I were comparing two DBA applicants, and one had managed a few MS Access files with 10-40 tables each, while another managed a 650 table Sybase database, I'd treat the Sybase DBA much more seriously.
If I'm the only computer tech for a company of 25, am I a lowly "operator" even though there's no designer?
You're a systems administrator, although on a small scale. I, for one, don't buy into jackb_guppy's oversimplification of the computer industry.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
jackb_guppy writes:
If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.
Not from what I've seen. When it comes to getting a job, knowledge is much less important than experience. Experience is what gets you the interview, you can't even try to wow them with your knowledge until you are sitting in front of them.
But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.
Certifications have clearly helped some people get jobs. I don't think they help as much now. The certification attempts to say "I know this", whether or not you have done it. Again, knowledge is less important than experience.
Most people making hiring decisions for technical staff aren't technical themselves. An intellegent manager with no technical knowledge or political agenda would probably take the following people, in order of preference:
1) The person who has done the job before, on an equal or larger scale, elsewhere (with references)
2) The person who has done the job before, on a smaller scale, elsewhere (with references)
3) The person with a certification saying they know how to do the job.
4) The person without a certification or relevant experience who can convince me that they know how to do the job.
5) The intelligent, self starter who I'm convinced can teach themselves the job as they go.
6) There is no 6, the risk involved in 5 is bad enough that most managers refuse to go there.
If #'s 1 and 2 are scarce, having a cert can bounce you from 5 or 6 up to 3, and get you a job. Whether or not this is actualy intellegent on the managers part is subject to debate, but remember the manager doesn't have technical knowledge, and therefore doesn't know which certs are meaningul and which aren't.
If there are many 1's and 2's, then a cert is meaningless. Right now, there seem to be many 1's and 2's for most computer jobs.
That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.
Wise, with 20+ years of experience, certifications would just be badly flavored icing on your resume.
All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).
The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.
There are jobs out there where you won't actually get to an interview without a certification or solid experience.
There are even some jobs out there where you need a certification for them to even look at your resume. I would say that those jobs just aren't worth it, there's no loss to missing out on such a position (unless the job is to teach certification courses).
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.
I'd have to agree with this one. A valid (i.e. College Board Certified) Bachelors in Computer Science teaches you how to code, but doesn't teach you how to administer a system. If the writer got through such a CS program without learning how to code, then all they have is an expensive piece of paper.
Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.
You oversimplify horribly. The computer industry breaks down into, at minimum:
* Software designers (programmers, analysts, etc.)
* Hardware designers (EE's, Computer Engineers, IC Designers)
* Systems/Network Administrators
* Tech Support
* Operations (Print room, backup systems, etc)
* Training
Even this oversimplifies, and leaves out significant job descriptions (Technical Writer, Web Designer)
If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.
Now you are just using labels to be elitist.
There is[sic] a lot of operators out there. That is what[sic] is a buyers market.
There are a lot of all levels of technical people out there. That is why it is a buyers market.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
I would seriously consider the unlicensed "Quack" doctor with a 20 year practice, assuming he also comes with good references. There is a lot to be said for real world experience over someone who just got his MD last week by the skin of his teeth.
The biggest problems with the above hypothetical Quack are he couldn't write legal prescriptions; and if complications arose, he couldn't make use of a hospital's resources. All the limitations on such a person are external, because our legal system demands Doctors have that piece of paper. They say nothing about the person's competance.
"What do you call the medical student who graduates last in his class?"
"Doctor."
----
Open mind, insert foot.
I'd like to point out first that the tone of your reply suggests that I suggested I expect my degree to get me a job the minute I graduate, so I'll let you look at a part of my conclusion again:
:)
"To say 'I have a degree, I'm guaranteed a job' is bullshit, I know, but to cast it off completely and say a degree just says you know how to pass the exam, is also bullshit."
I am not saying my CS degree will land me a great job in the tech sector. Far from it. With a degree, however, I'm more likely to get a decent job (ie one that doesn't pay too badly, and we're not talking about what type of work we're involved in here) with that CS degree sitting on the CV.
As for how good my university is, I'm at the University of Glasgow. Depending what reports you read, it either 2nd in the league table for CS courses offered in the UK, or 9th. And I think that '9th' rating came from a report that took into account the number of A-level students have on admission to the university (an A-level, for those that don't know, being a grade offered in England during the pupils secondary education, equivalent to the Scottish Higher qualification offered at around the same level of education, so thats *really* what the study should have looked at, but...).
As for the IQ, I'm surprised at your accuracy -- my IQ is 121, apparently
And re: the lying on the CV bit, well, I'll think about that when the need arises...
Cheers,
Stween
As someone who works (in the present tense - thankfully) for a so-called "e-learning" provider for certification training (Cisco, Microsoft, Novell, Oracle), I can tell you without reservation both the consumer and corporate certification training market is DEAD. When times were good, this company had a profitable revenue run-rate of on JUST individuals that pursued certification training via the Web. Now we're lucky if we sell 1 or 2 $1K-$2K cert. packages a month to any one. Now we have had to change our strategy to stay in business ourselves and strategically align with companies that were once our competitors on the content and training side -- and, while the times are extraordinarily hard, we are making strides with our technology, such as it is, versus pure content, which much bigger companies already provide better and more cheaply than we do.
This dearth of interest in certification training may answer your question in a roundabout way. I see many job postings that specifically ask for MCSE, CCNA, CCNP, CCIE mainly so it SEEMS to be important to some employers, but most individuals and corps themselves are simply not going out for or paying for certifications any more. To give you an illustration I recently took one of the MCSE 2000 courses in a classroom setting. There were just 2 other people in there and both were desktop support people who were in the wrong class but stayed because their employer (a State Agency, as it happens) had already paid for it. In a classroom that could have handled 8 more people, this is a big hit for the ILT (Instructor-Led Training) providers who really need the bodies. Every one in this industry is feeling the hurt.
I do know that Cisco is revamping all their certifications to make them more challenging and appealing to employers and Microsoft is tweaking their cert. program by adding the MCSA, but
All in all there are a lot of good people out here on our asses, just the way it goes at the moment.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Even in the United States there are so many highly skilled coders, etc. available that they're starting to write off people because they've been out of IT for 6 months. This is just another way to filter the CVs because they have so many, soon they'll also consider your astrological star signs and tarot cards but will still have 1,000 applicants per position. In a massive UK telecom company they've got 50 positions available and 17,000 applications. Not good.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I have to admit I've mulled over this thought for some time now. The difference between success and non. My former job is a good example of the paradox of employment.
At my former job there was very nice man. He had just graduated from one of those IT training jobs where he <quote>learned</quote> Java. The class was a 3 year adult learning program. Prior to that he was a pharmacists I belive. Anyway he was responseable for making the database queries. All his code was all packed into ONE object totaling over 1000 lines of code. Each distinct object in it's own method. It couild be worse but this type of codeing is a big no no in Java. You should split your logic into real objects for maintanability, readability, and scalability.
Looking at it from the other end. He has a job and I don't. I may program more elegantly. I may have a true love for computers and would be happy to work for peanuts just to play with a new PERL module. However there are many things I don't have. A degree in pharmacuticals, experience running my own pharmacy, 40 years under my belt, a wife and kids. Yeah, these are what matters to quality software.
You see knowledge, quality, intellegance, interest, code fu mean nothing to a house, wife, and two kids. The fact that you can whip up a 50 node network with 10 print servers in a day, or fix any problem ever interduced from a computer, or design an n-teir application to take over the world means nothing to burocratic inefficiency.
Age is a huge huge factor. A 37 year old with no degree can acutally beat out a 27 year old with a PH.D.
Another huge difference in a managers eye is brand name. A perfect example I had was how those in charge reacted compared to those programmers doing the work when I mantioned CVS instead of VSS. (CVS: Concurrent Versions System, VSS: Visual Source Safe) In a programmers eyes I mentioned CVS and the usuall response was "That would be cool. I wouldn't mind" however those in charge (and those Microsoft Visual Basic only programmers who couldn't comprehend Perl if it killed them) responded with "Um, we use VSS, what is wrong with you?" or "Do what your told."
I've had interviews for Java where the first question is how many years of Visual J++ do you have. My obvious answer is none because VJ++ defeats the whole concept of Java. Or they ask if you can edit in Visual Studio. And I reply "What's the difference between Notepad and 'cat foo.txt' it's all ASCII text!! I could enter in Hex code for all you care it is all the same thing."
Needless to say I never got those jobs. But the point is clear. Employers and even some professional programmers who are in the nitty gritty like name brand software. So symlink your Emacs and VIM to Word and VC++ or else!
Another hold back is 'hackdom' employers don't like code slingers. If you have enough knowledge and skill to be a jack-of-all-trades and a serious code fu then you're better off at a small under-employed bussiness because big companies want code monkeys who do nothing but type like data entry for there code. It's job security and also the very concept behind "Ferinhight 451": keep them dumb and stupid and they won't see how bad it is. So geeks need to walk a very fine line between brand name skills and l33t skills.
I would greatly appreciate any feed back. This is realy an over generalization and partly a rant. I personaly have felt bellittled because I valued my Unix skills and hacking ability over my memorization of where the VB buttons and menus are. I valued my code elegancy over IDE integration. I valued command-line interfaces over dumbed up and usually crippled GUI interfaces. And in the long run it hasn't payed off.
Have other had simular situations?
> SELECT * FROM brain_cells WHERE synaptic_rate > 0
0 row returned
"Even in the United States there are so many highly skilled coders, etc. available that they're starting to write off people because they've been out of IT for 6 months. This is just another way to filter the CVs because they have so many, soon they'll also consider your astrological star signs and tarot cards but will still have 1,000 applicants per position. In a massive UK telecom company they've got 50 positions available and 17,000 applications. Not good."
It doesn't paint a pretty picture, does it?? The end of fourth year only two years away for me, but its also a hell of a lot of work, a hell of a lot of study and a hell of a lot of exams. By then I'll have *seriously* considered what I want to do with myself, and will probably have sent off more than a couple of applications for jobs.
Glasgow University has strong links with some large companies, and a lot of graduates do get some half-decent work at these firms (BT is the big one they're friendly with. IBM and Motorola are friendly too (which reminds me, in addition to the languages I mentioned earlier, we're also learning assembly for the MC6808 microcontroller)).
I'm studying my degree mostly to feed my interest in computing. I'm not battling through exams just to get a CS degree in the vain hope of getting a high paid job. If it happens, its a happy bonus, and there's no way I'll turn a good offer down (I know of one guy in fourth year CS here was just offered a job -- what the job was, I'm not sure, and he may not even care too much -- with a starting wage of $40k per annum. I'm not expecting it to happen to me, just saying it does happen).
Many people, unfortunately do take computing because of the promise of money. This is probably why of the 500 first year CS students that I was one of, there are now only around 230 in 2nd year. That'll probably be around 140 that get into 3rd year, and somewhere in the region of 80-100 that progress into 4th year. That means that ~80% of the people who tried it just couldn't cope. And that doesn't take into account the number of people that actually do pass the honours exams.
Its a competitive field, at university as well as in the "real world"
Two years away isn't too bad, you'll probably come out just as the US economy is on the edge of going up. Unfortunately big companies take about a year after that to raise their hiring freeze, so then you'll get something 6 months after that when the Oxbridge people have cleared. These statistics don't lie. If you want to know about the UK economy (objectively, not some Merrill Lynch analyst talking crap) then uhhhhh I dunno. Maybe that's why those city people can bullshit everyone.
BT is in deep trouble, hopefully within 1 year they'll be better. From their perspective this will be a good time to grab the best talent.I thought that I wanted to work in City, then when I had a second round in Lehman I saw the company behind the scenes. I saw the glamour of city life was all just a crock of shit. All that IT there does is bitch about Unix saying "When is Microsoft gonna make their OS scalable?" There was only *1* employee there doing R and D in reconfigurable GUIs (using XML from a server and translating it into parameters for a GridBagLayout in Java UI). They don't care about the technology, they just want point and click so that they can go snuff some coke or something. Now these people are probably out in the street, good, let's see how long they can live in their Porsche Carrera.
Don't undersell yourself, those companies worship us together with Altera and Xylinx, but the position of these companies is far from omnipotent right now. They'll see your CV and say, "Yes, we'll interview you just as a formality. Now the number of positions we have open is -200. Ummmmm, ahhhh I'm sorry I've got to sack some people and then I'll call you back after 2 years."
Good, but a high paid job would be *nice*.Same dropout rate as us. Sounds like you've been interested in this stuff since you were 8 years old. People like us are best at cutting it, although in the fourth year you will realise the futility of exams that only test complex knowledge like comparing quantitatively the scalability of RIP and EIGRP, both in bandwidth and router CPU usage terms with formulae.With one crucial difference - University exams are set by professors who know what they're doing (more or lessDifficult times aren't crap, if you study about the world economic system (take a macroeconomics and politics module, just for a laugh) you'll see that the entire Banks system of gearing ratios leads to booms and busts. What does suck is the catch-22 of normal jobs are unavailable, and if you take a lower job your career ends up on the wrong track for the rest of your life.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
"Sounds like you've been interested in this stuff since you were 8 years old. People like us are best at cutting it, although in the fourth year you will realise the futility of exams that only test complex knowledge like comparing quantitatively the scalability of RIP and EIGRP, both in bandwidth and router CPU usage terms with formulae." I was 9, actually :) And thankyou for confirming to me that there always is more to learn. That last part pretty much flew straight over my head...
"With one crucial difference - University exams are set by professors who know what they're doing (more or less ;-) ), in the real world some semi-literate recruitment agency staff or dumb ex-military hiring manager is looking at your CV. The only way to impress him is by talking about golf for an hour (this happened to my coursemate, seriously)."
Yeah, its pretty much the "he seems like a nice guy, lets hire him". I understand that one, and I know how valuable a skill being able to bluff your way through a conversation can be -- I work part time in a bar to keep my bank balance on the correct side of £0, I need to be able to talk to anyone about anything, or people won't like me and my position there could slip quickly. Two members of staff said to me within a week or two of starting that I was confident enough with the customers that I'd do well there, and I'd like to think I could pull that off in an interview situation, though the two situations really are worlds apart.
Heh, ^^^ switched to HTML formatting there, ^^^ forgot to put the line break and/or paragraph tags in... If only there was some way to edit a comment once it was submitted
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
My advice: If when you graduate you don't get a job with a big company (e.g. BT) then do a PhD. Take a year out at your discretion.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Yeah, yeah, do a PhD. If the IT market doesn't recover then it's really sad for people like us. Cos this is what we do if you know what I mean, people in it for the money can just switch to accountancy. For people like us though, it feels like a 10 mile high and 100 mile wide brick wall's been dropped in our path.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?