Slashdot Mirror
No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders
RandyOo writes: "Only 4 days after news of an XBox port of MAME was posted to Slashdot, Microsoft contacted the admin of mame.net and downloads have now been removed. Knew I should have downloaded it earlier this morning ... Thank goodness for P2P!" And scubacuda writes: "According to The Register, one group of Xbox hackers have decided to halt development on its Xbox mod chip. It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit."
.. But Microsoft's lawyers contacted me and asked me not to.
Im suprised it didn't happen the day it was announced.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
I know this sucks and all but... is anyone actually surprized? I didn't think that MS would tolarate this for long.
Sigs are out of style, so I'm not going to use one...oh wait..
do you think that if they are doing this with X-Box, that they won't do something similar with Palladium?
It is all that trademark control of the user experience thing happening all over again.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Thank goodness for P2P!
You can now download Mod chips via P2P?! Sweet!
dmarien
How can porting MAME to an X-box possibly be either illegal or damaging to Microsoft?
Is it going to get to the point where we have to get their approval for doing anything in life?
Frost Pist!
Remember; listening to microsoft too much killed Sega as a Console producer; Now they've been reduced to software. People who buy X-Boxen deserve what they get, IE a kick in the ass.
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Microsoft? Not hacker-friendly? What is this world coming to?
Next thing you know they'll start mucking around with standards and protocols!
m00.
It looks as if it was taken down because it was using the XDK. For now they just seem to be posting the changes in the source code.
MS would never let you mod the X-box. They want to mod it. Remember the 500 dollar ultimate TV set? 300 bucks says that all they do is add a 50 dollar tv tuner card, and then port their software to the xbox's form of WinCE, or stinger or whatever they feel like using.
Home brew developers are such a threat to MS as well, ever notice how much they make off of their games? WOW, thats a lot.
(sarcasm)
"Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
And you know what else? Fuck them. They chose a poor business model. I don't care if it's standard practice in the console market. If I want to do something with a piece of hardware I purchased then I'll damn well do it. This bullshit has got to stop. I don't owe them a profit, and I'm not going to bottle up my enjoyment of life for the benefit of a corporation.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
What the hell. If we bought an xbox we should be able to do whatever we want with it. That includes modding it to do something else.
If i buy a calculator that doesn't mean i cant rip it apart and use the LCD for something else... this whole "no i dont want you ripping games thing" is getting ridiculous. So you stop me from modding my xbox... for what, 5 minutes? P2P fixes that, or i just grab the PC versions of the game... either way, i don't pay anything.
"No, Master!"
Microsoft can kick and whine and scream all they want to, but it's far, far too late. They knew that all the other consoles get chipped. They knew that their hardware was ripe for a Linux/Mame/Etc.. port. They knew that they were going to have to fight this, even if every other console maker has been doing it from the beginning of time.
Sorry, Bill. Take a good look at Sony, your main source of competition. What have they done? Released a Linux kit... and therefore eventual Mame compatibility.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit.
or
It will be interesting to see how the (law) suits will follow the other developers.
The site of another modchip manufacturer at http://www.xtender.info/ is also gone.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
They're still posting source code as they update it. Of course, without the Xbox Development Kit (which they used to develop MAME-X), you can't build it, so it's kinda useless.
Precedent has already been set forth by Sega V. Accolade. One does not need permission from a platform developer to release software for that platform, given sufficient reverse engineering. However, since MAME-X, and all other Xbox software, uses Xbox's (and Windows') APIs, effectively nothing can be released without Microsoft's consent.
The EULA strikes again.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
(-1 AYBoxABTU)
"Ask me about Loom"
Xbox mod creators, however, claim to have the moral high ground in this discussion ... they focus their efforts on creating chips which can run homebrew software rather than pirated games, such as the Xbox version of MAME (designed to emulate old arcade machines)...
;)
The irony of that statement, told by The Register with a straight face, is delicious! "Look! We're using this to run homebrew software, like Joust, Centipede, and Wizard of Wor!"
from now on, everyone should refer to x-box mod chips as "Replacement Wheels for Chocolate Bicycles" ... this will ensure that MS prying eyes will be kept from our clandestine, x-box hacking activities. Viva La Revolucion!
-jms258
Just like Jack Valente (sp?) claiming that if VCRs were allowed to be sold that the movie industry would go out of business... Microsoft has always had a top-notch FUD machine.
Is it surprising that a company that is pulling stuff like trying to break GPLed software on their OS would go in with guns blazing against Mod chips and Xbox Hacking?
*sigh*
Predictable as it is, it's still kinda sad.
The Digital Sorceress
Honestly... this just adds to the idea: What's the point.
Microsoft's big happy campaign behind the X-Box was that it would be integrable with a lot of stuff since it was based around a standard computer...
Well, so far that's proved to be useless, considering the lack of a commercial OS to run off of it, no inter-web games available as of yet, and no use of this would-be harddrive that couldn't be achieved on a PS-2.
So now they're getting pissed off at Modders. Well what do they expect? They've given us a bunch of resources, and now they're saying "Nope, you can't use them".
Yeah, M$ doesn't really belong in the gaming industry if you ask me. Playstation seems to be doing a good job and providing the public with everything Microsoft promised.
Karma: Non-Heinous
no i will not stop hacking game consoles, linux must run on everything, got it on my pda, got it on my dreamcast, hell if would stop gaming i would have it on my toaster and water meter by now!!
it must conquer all!!!!!!
and while i am at it , thx for trying to ruin another good thing going, first halo and now this. atleast we already have acess to it this time.
This one time, I added real ketchup to some pringles. It was pretty good, but the that pale man wiht the moustache has been after me for a all I'm worth.
What's next? Will MSFT ask ebay to ban mod chips?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Microsoft, like Nintendo and Sony, spends millions developing anti-piracy technology and now they're mad about the cracks - what a surprise. Remember, consoles also thrive on licensing. If anyone could develop software for a console, it would defeat the purpose of the entire business. Of course, Sony's Linux kit is a bit of an exception, but you can't distribute any software for it.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Doesn't Microsoft Realize that these hacks are improving their hardware sales. I didn't even consider buying an xbox until I heard it got cracked. Now we got MAME on there. Oh and I got to admit the hack that allows you to watch Divx movies on the machine is quite enticing.
I can't believe that companies are this stupid!
If I buy your product you're making money from the sale. If I then mod that same product in a way that's cool and I show it off to my friends, chances are they too will buy your product and again you'll make money.
If you throw walls, safeguards, and other things in my way to prevent me from modding your products, chances are I'll take my business and money elsewhere.
Get a clue folks. If you support and assist us in product mods you'll generate more sales! And you may even find new versions of your products to sell, and new innovations to improve your products.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
It sounds as if Microsoft is pissed because their SDK was used. I don't have an Xbox SDK, but I'd imagine that there is some pretty hefty licensing requirements that disallow posting any code built with it on the net.
Now, if someone manages to build Xbox binaries with other tools (gcc) and without the libraries and headers that come with Microsofts SDKs, I don't think Microsoft will be able to do anything about that.
Take a look at the GameBoy Advance scene -- there are at least two non-Nintendo compiler chains that you can use to build GBA binaries. Plenty of people have their own sets of header files available for use (I have a heavily modified set of my own). Nintendo realises that they can't stop them. But, if any of the offical GBA SDK shows up on the net, better believe it that Nintendo's lawyers are working to quickly get it offline.
So, this doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's poor business model and everything to do with protecting their intellectual property.
dennis
Why should I buy something if I can use it for something other than what it was purchased for....
I bought a car... I can do donuts in it if I want, tweak the engine and so forth.
Like I said... I WAS going to buy an XBOX, screw them, they have lost my business.
Just port Halo to the PC.
word.
Microsoft: If cars had improved the way software has we'd all be driving a million miles an hour uphill on a shot glass of fuel and the car would cost a dollar.
New response: If cars were like the xbox, we'd be sued for selling after market parts and only be able to buy gas from approved vendors at a dollar a gallon premium.
"Remember; listening to microsoft too much killed Sega as a Console producer; Now they've been reduced to software."
WTF?! Where did you hear there? I realize that MS isn't well liked, that doesn't mean that they're responsible for failures that are even semi-linked to them.
The reason that Sega failed as a console producer dates back to their flooding the market with crap. The Sega CD was was a decent add-on but didn't have very many interesting games (at least compared to the Genesis.) They released the 32x and quickly forgot about it. The Saturn spent all it's time playing catch-up to Sony and failed miserably. When the Dreamcast was released, the PS2 was hot on it's heels.
If anything, MS helped the Dreamcast by providing them with a CE-based OS for developers to port games to it. Unfortunately, though, Sega couldn't afford to keep producing Dreamcast consoles. They'z expensive. With the competition from PS2, MS, and Nintendo, there was just no way they could keep up. So they made the right decision: Make games for all the consoles, make your competitors earn you money.
This has nothing to do with Microsoft. Just because MS has their logo on the Dreamcast, doesn't mean they did anything to lead to it's demise. I realize MS is widely hated here, but if everybody on Slashdot does nothing but bash MS, then nobody'll take you seriously when you have a legit complaint about MS.
"Derp de derp."
TiVo (the PVR) is more friendly to hackers and actively support them, so I came to the following idea where you can piss Microsoft off a little and add to your TiVo at the same time. As Microsoft plan into making future generations of XBox a Personal Video Recorder, what about killing them stone dead by installing MAME on a TiVo?
First generation TiVOs may not have enough CPU power to simultaneously play video games and record, but the second generation ones have faster CPUs. They're probably not up to leading edge games but early arcade games should be no problem.
Demonstrate that being hostile to hackers is not a good thing.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Exactly what has Mame done than Microsoft can force them to remove binaries from their site? Are they accused of distributing copyrighted works? What?
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Actually, an unmodded Dreamcast will play CD-R copies.
word.
I dont think so..
You license software, not hardware...
You've just removed my only reason for possibly wanting to buy an X-box in the future. Aside from running cool stuff on it via modchip, I would have bought plenty of games as well. But since you attack legitamate mod chip companies (who are not aiming for piracy at all but to expand the X-Box to do more for the money), you have lost my buisiness.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Here are my predictions for the most popular comments in this topic:
/.'d. Please mod me up.
:)
* MS sucks! They're only doing it because they're evil monopolists. I'm going to totally ignore the fact that nearly every other console maker feels the same way (like Sony, for example...)
* They have no right to do this because I don't like anything MS does.
* Yet more proof that MS is evil. Now I'll never buy an XBOX.
* This sucks, I want to run Linux on the XBOX, even though I'm not sure there's anythign practical I'd wanna do on it.
* How dare they prevent the XBOX from doing stuff besides playing games that people have to pay for!
* Here's a copy/paste of the article in case the site gets
* It's gonna happen anyway, now I feel even more justified in doing it because M$ is evil.
* Why are they picking on MAME? It's totally legal!
And so on...
Heh.
"Derp de derp."
That's strange, when I opened my box the only thing to sign and agree to was the warranty card, which was useless the moment I broke the void if removed seal anyways.
You're full of bullshit, and I call you out, troll.
Is this just good old-fashioned bullying by MS, or is there a legal construction that actually allows them to do this?
I'm speculating that the SDK is only available through some signed contract and that it gives various shutdown capabilities to Microsoft and/or spells out certain types of software that may not be developed using it -- but I'm just speculating. (It would make sense, though.) Anyone got the hard info?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
These "mod chips" are all about piracy, pure and simple. No legit user would ever want or need to open up their console to play games
I would comment on the need to use modchips in order to play imported games (and the supply of "import only" modchips for the PSX that would allow the console to boot and run imported games, but would not allow the console to boot with CD-R media) but since your post is definitely going to be modded down as flamebait, trolling or both (and deservedly so), I'll not bother.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
Ever think that they aren't going after you, but those people who are trying to piggyback on top of MS's sales?
Mod your system till your heart is content. Just don't try making a business out of it.
Why waste effort porting or hacking a platform if the vendor tells you it will be "somewhat" open in the future?
Sony did the right thing by saying they would eventually be releasing everything needed to make your own "custom play" console. They defused the desire and efforts of many who would have done otherwise. Since this strategy of "announce and release somewhere a bazillion years from now" was pretty much created by Microsoft I'm not sure why they just didn't do this now?
--- I do not moderate.
[clear throat, sip water]
Microsoft is to Software what an Asshole is to Shit.
MICROSOFT SUCKS!
No, seriously now. Microsoft is so stupid. They are so greedy, and yet they don't see a gaping huge business opportunity when it's coming right at them. And they have NO forethought whatsoever. Here's why: First, Washington Billy decides to make an Xbox. Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when you make a game console, good people are gonna hack those consoles for various purposes, including education and fun. So why does Washington Billy make an Xbox then, with this knowledge being so damn obvious? The only reason to do something like this is to TAKE ADVANTAGE of the fact that a game console serves a dual purpose (playing the damn game, and hacking), and making a shitload of money off that. Like Id does. They make Wolfenstein 3D, and folks start hacking it. Granted, Id didn't plan it that way. But they profitted BIG TIME off it. So then, they make Doom, but they release little tidbits of information every so often, to help the hackers. And what do you know? Everybody and his uncle buys DOOM, and Carmack drives a fancier car than Washington Billy. So then they release the source to Wolfenstein, and later, to DOOM, and later, they even release the source to Quake! And the d00dz who wrote it are rolling in dough. So what does that teach you? That Washington Billy might have caught on to the clue and figgered out that if they can make millions by doing that, he can make zillions. But then what does he do? He bitches and moans when someone hacks the Xbox. Well, d00d, it was obvious that it was gonna happen!
It reminds me of this stupid girl I used to know... this might have been about 8 or 9 years ago. She was hot. And she kept smiling at me and talking to me and shit. So one day, I ask for her phone number, and she gives it to me. Anyway, an hour later, I'm talking to some shmoe, and she comes up to talk to me. I say I gotta do some shit, but I'll call you later. No, don't call me, she says. I say why not. She says she has a boyfriend. So I say why did you give me your number. She says cuz you asked for it. I say, "WELL WHAT DID YOU THINK I WAS GONNA DO WITH IT?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!"
So Billy is doing the same thing. He should have used his friggin noggin first. But noooooooooo. So let me tell you something. I hope NOBODY EVER HACKS/MODS/BUYS/USES/THINKS ABOUT USING an Xbox, EVER. It's made by Micro$oft. Therefore, like Windoors, Internet Exploder, Lookout Express, and all their other defective excuses for products, the Xbox is garbage, and nobody should support it.
Here's a scary thought: What if Microsoft *was* selling Hardware Use Licenses..
"You may not use this pointing device to click on any hyperlink on a non-microsoft approved site."
As far as home brew games, just change the code a bit and release it for free or sell it or rent it or whatever for the PC. Preferably a PC running Linux, to really flip MS the bird on this one.
Funny, and here I thought the immature, ill-educated fanboys only _played_ the consoles .. who knew some of them programmed them too?
"Old man yells at systemd"
This is a very immature attitude that will not allow for a clear understanding of the business.
I'm not going to bottle up my enjoyment of life for the benefit of a corporation.
Simply put, you wouldn't have the enjoyment of said product because said product would never exist (or it would exist well outside of most peoples budget) so you wouldn't be able to enjoy it anyway.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console, the only way to do it is to bypass the technical (not legal) region restriction placed on the console by the manufacturer.
Granted, many console mods are done for the sole purpose of piracy. But there are most definately reasons to mod a console for reasons other than piracy.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Ok, I'll bite. What about games that you want to play that are imported? For example, Final Fantasy X International has some cool stuff not found in the US version, and no plans exist to send the game here. I can not play an imported game as it stands on a US Playstation 2. I am not advocating piracy at all, I just want to be able to play that game. I also can not import a playstation on amazon.co.uk due to "manufacturer restrictions". What am I supposed to do?
Everytime I hear or read Microsoft, I think "Someone with intentional motives to use their power to destroy" makes me sick.
Is any of this, however, a result of license violations of Xbox MAME -- as in, it was compiled with a development kit, so the producer owes MS $5 a copy? If we paid for Xbox MAME, would it be legit? Seriously, I'd pay $50 for Xbox MAME and pay for it at Wal-Mart. Is this option closed to them?
They ( modchips ) usually allow you to play imported games from out side your region. I'm not sure if the X-Box has region encoding. (I can't remember right now so this may not apply).
Some of the mod chips for the original playstation would just let you play imported games but not play copied games.
This should be legal because a game is purchased and is not copied. The use of the mod chip is to allow you, the owner of game and system, to play the game that you rightfully own.
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--
E_NOSIG
Go away microsoft!! We don't want to play your game any more.
GNU/Linux=OpenSource=Freedom
A guy walks into a Ford dealer and buys a brand new Thunderbird. He hates the color and want a more powerful engine. He also wants it to run on water.
He changes the color, tricks it out, and adds a water chip to the catalytic converter to let him run it with water.
Henry Ford rolls over in his grave and his truck-loving-great-grandson comes to your house and blows your head off...
Do we see other companies besides Microsoft doing this?
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
No market for mod chips.
word.
Microsoft being the #1 modder.
You seem to forget that if it had not been for IBM's original open architecture for the PC Microsoft would be just a footnote in history.
Microsoft is hemorraging big time on these consoles under the premise that they can sell software titles to make up for that loss. Furthermore I suspect there is a secondary interest in simply trying to create a nother market they can dominate. But anyhow, the damage is simply that if I can run software that never paid a toll to Microsoft, then Microsoft will lose even more money on the boxes.
Having said that there shouldn't be any legal reason that makes a mod chip illegal. SHOULDN'T being the key word here. They can likely sue on any number of fronts just as a legal bullying tactic.
The most obvious attack would be DMCA. By providing a mod chip, then you are possibly circumventing access control measures, etc. Depends on what exactly the mod chip does really. But really it doesn't matter whether they have a solid case or not, as long as it isn't frivolous enough to get thrown out of court on day one, it's gonna cost a lot of resources to fend it off.
Strange thought: what if Sony released a mod chip for X-box? >:)
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I don't want your love, just your respect.
Don't forget that you often need mod chips for playing out-of-region games.
There are people out there who can speak two or more languages. We get kind of ticked off by corporate mandated English-only policies.
The biggest problem is with DVDs. But console games are a problem two.
In fact, the Australians have the worst of it. Why shouldn't they be able to mod their bought and paid for hardware (licensed property, my ass -- that would fly about as far as I could throw it in court) to play American imported games?
Preach on Brotha!! AMEN
-- Insert wisdom here:
Simply put, you wouldn't have the enjoyment of said product because said product would never exist (or it would exist well outside of most peoples budget) so you wouldn't be able to enjoy it anyway.
And maybe that's the way it should be, after all if we could arbitrarily change the laws of physics that would make any number of products possible too. Trying to change human nature is just as prone to failure in the long run as is trying to change the laws of phyics.
In one breath you say Mod chips should be called "Piracy Chips." There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
Then in the next paragraph, Why do you think Microsoft included an ethernet adapter? It's because when "Xbox Live" goes live, they can see your machine. They could see your saved games, they could see how often you play, and nobody would be the wiser. Why? Because the entire operating system is proprietary, and there's no way to disassemble it. You couldn't even install a piece of software on the Xbox to trap packets coming out of it, because it would have to be approved by Microsoft.
Do you see now? I don't own an X-Box, but if I did I very well may want a Mod-chip installed, so I can add my own software - maybe ZoneAlarm (? or is it ZoneAlert?). So I can see what my console that I purchased is sending out over the internet connection that I pay for.
That's why.
What's next? Dell saying that you can't "Mod" you computer to run "Illegal" Linux kernels?
I know that some people are using the Xbox and pirating games, BUT some people are using it to develop stuff. The guys who developed the MAME for XBOX didn't really do anything illegal, they were just developing a program for a system. No more illegal than writing a Cron job IMHO. In addition, I don't remember clicking through a EULA when I booted up the Xbox for the first time... Since when Can't a mod a piece of hardware that I buy?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
A friend of mine was living in Japan when the PS2 was released there. He got one pretty soon after they came out. He has now moved back to the US after 5 years living abroad and has discovered that he can't play games that he buys here on it. A modchip could help that (that is, if either of us could pull off the soldering work...)
Mod chips are also used in the reverse situation. There are a lot of cool games that are only released in Japan than will never make it to the shores of the US. With a modchip installed, you can play those games.
In both cases, all the developers got their money from the games, and Sony sold them each a console. I don't see any harm in this.
Not trying to "flame away" at you, but there are alternative uses for mod chips. And I'm sure you're right in saying that my two examples are exceptions to the rule, but it's not absolute.
Commencing flame.
No really, mod chips let me import games (which I purchase) from Japan. Pure and simple.
What the fuck is the point of globalization and "the international market" if they are selling neutered hardware that wont let you even USE the stuff you can now have access to in other markets?
It's a fucking joke. Anyone who supports increased global trade, but opposes mod-chips is a total hypocrite. We are not becoming a global community, but a two tiered society - powerful producers and powerless consumers.
Well, fuck that. Like the Boston Tea Party, sometimes you gotta break the rules when they've been sufficiently and effectively stacked up against you.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Trying to change human nature is just as prone to failure in the long run as is trying to change the laws of phyics.
Human nature is to do evil. It is in everyones best interest to discipline ourselves otherwise. It's like the locks on the doors that "keeps the honest people honest". Deterring criminal behavior works.
When will MS and Sony figure it out that people modding there stuff is GOOD! First off MS, Sony, Nintendo, and every other console maker looses money when they sell a console. They do this to drive up the number of games sold, off of wich they make a profit. So by not allowing for mods, emulators, and the likes they are killing free revenue wich they didn't have to dish out 50 - 200 in manufaturing costs!
Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
HarHar? What about people that want to view import dvds without buying a dvd player from that region? That whole scheme is a rip off. There is a valid reason, and proof that you're a moron.
Man, you're a complete fucking moron, do you realise that? You have your teeny little brain rattling around in that great big head of yours, and it seems that a few neurons have fired and somehow caused you to write gibberish into a text input box.
If you have any neurons left after that, you should call your nearest University. The Biology department will be interested in studying you.
Almost (with you and I as the only exception, apparently) belive the quote with a straight face.
"Hey, MS shouldn't care, it isn't like we are stealing from them. We are just using their machine to play games we stole from other people. In doing so we are causing MS to loose money (on the hardware) and not buying the games they get the licensing fee from. This is totally ridiculous."
Come to think of it, if they allowed MAME, they might be susecptable to a DMCA lawsuit.
So the MAME project uses the Xbox Development Kit to develop MAME for the Xbox. What this means is one of the following:
- They bought a proper license for the XDK. The ability to buy one requires an approved title.
OR
- They illegally pirated a copy of the XDK.
Since the MAME project had a working version on a devkit box (the clear case Xboxes), I'd be willing to bet that a programmer at a games shop that has an approved Xbox title took it upon himself to port MAME.
Once MAME was developed, the only thing required to get it running on commercial Xboxes was either pressing a true DVD-9 and getting the code signed as an approved Xbox title, or using a mod-chip and burning the software onto a CD.
The first option wouldn't happen - MAME is not a title that would show the power of Xbox, nor would it be something the average consumer would want.
The legal problem with the second option is that the ported MAME software uses Microsoft's intellectual property. When building software for Xbox, your application is linked against several static libraries that provide the base software services (file systems, memory management, etc.)
Hence, Microsoft really does have the legal right to stop distribution of MAME in this case.
Don't ask me about the mod chip's legal case - I don't know about it at all.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Hey Intel and AMD sell their hardware for the right prices and then don't care WHAT THE HELL you do with it. It's all just a normal computer to me, Nvidia video, Intel chip... why can't I do what I want with it?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Microsoft also used this tactic in the early 90s to gain market penetration with Windows 3.0, Office 4.2, etc. Everyone had Windows because everyone could have Windows. No copyright protection, nothing.
Sony console purchases increased because people could easily mod their boxes and play games. Sure it hurt the bottom line for the game companies, but did it ever increase the "potential" market.
Basically XBox just sealed its fate. Thank goodness, I was growing sick of hearing about it.
Piss off and die Microsoft.
Tournament Management Online &
I think it's mostly a move to save face... They want to keep the word from getting out that *cough* Microsoft hardware is quite hackable. Just the fact that the word is out should do some good damage to their reputation- and peoples confidence level in Palladium. X-box owners should make a big deal about this... the bad publicity for Micro$haft can be good for us. Every little bit counts.
Blender And Linux Fan
Jeebus, when I was twelve or so I dissasembeled nearly every mechanical and electronic device in my house... plus I taped an album off a guy around then too so I suppose I'm responsible for all the shitty music put out since 1980.
Oh wait, there was shitty music being put out before that too so I guess not.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
Holy shit -- are you actually saying that modding an XBox is evil and criminal? Or that selling a product to work with an XBox so that other people can enjoy your mods is evil and criminial?
What about aftermarket car parts? Is building a replacement engine for a '69 VW Microbus evil and criminal? How about modding a '70 Porche to take a VW replacement engine? Or would you consider that innovative?
Hmm?
My kingdom for a mod point to bitchslap this troll down! Your last sentence gave it away:
Look at the music industry - Because of Napster, they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars, and it shows; The music they're putting out is crap, and it's because of music pirates.
*wipes tear from eye* Too funny =)
WTF is a "legit user"? Someone who plays by the rules Microsoft sets? Just because their business model is based on the flawed assumption that they can keep hax0rs from hax0ring their boxen, doesnt mean we have to play along. In short, FUCK YOU.
LOL :-)
I can understand why they would be able to stop projects like mod chips (Enigmah-X), but how can they stop projects like MAME, and mod chips that increase performance, or lets us play PS2 games on the XBox? They are going to far to control the consumer. MAME should have all the right to develop their software to run on the XBox. Can someone post the legal rights why they couldn't continue the project?
When are you ignorant /. posters (I apologize to those /.ers that aren't ignorant and make good posts) going to realize that they ARE JUST REMOVING THE BINARIES CREATED WITH A MS XBOX SDK! They almost certainly don't have an actual XBox SDK (they probably have the pirated version thats been around for a couple of months on newsgroups and irc) and even if they do actually own a legit copy of the XBox SDK, then they have violated the EULA by relasing binaries without paying royalties to MS.
Thats the way things work in the console world, you want to make games for my console? You gotta pay a royalty to the manufacturer of the console.
Ugh.. just shut up, read the damn story and then post.
-- DeionXxX
Sony does the same thing with their console.
Don't think that MS is special in that regard. All the mod chips for Sony have gotten their warnings too. Though I think that you can still get them. Last I checked it only required you to solder like 26 wires to your ps2 in order to get a mod chip to work. The original ps one mod chip only needed like 3 or 4.(depending on the model)
Regardless, MS was silly in making a PC into a console because well, you know that someone, somewhere is going to try and run linux, windows, *bsd, qnx, or whatever OS they want on it. It is only a matter of time before they do it.
They did get BSD on the Dreamcast.
Instead of people just using the Mame-X binaries, now they have to pirate your Xbox-DK instead.
Who wants to bet that people who chip consoles won't feel bad about downloading a warezed copy of the Xbox-DK? I thought so...
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
The line of circular reasoning rather silly, don't you think?
If a company makes a product, I am not obligated to make sure they make money at it - only that the product is useful/enjoyable to myself. That's it. End of my commitment. If I buy War and Peace and use it to beat my groin in a strange masturbatory experience, then Tolstoy shouldn't get all pissed off - he got his money, and I got a bruised crotch.
The same thing applies here. Microsoft's plans for their product do not override *my* plans for their product. Once I've spent the money, they can try to *entice* me to buy games - but if I want to use the Xbox as a doorstop, there's nothing on earth they can do to stop me. Paperweight? My right as a consumer. Potted plants? Same thing.
Put in a mod chip to run Linux so I can put Mame/DivX/a SNES emulator? Still my right - all they can try to do is entice me to spend the money *they* want me to. If they decide to pull the product off the market - that's fine. Perhaps someday there will be a vendor who *will* put that kind of product on the market, and then they will be the one to make money.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
- Wind_Walker
"What's next? Dell saying that you can't "Mod" you computer to run "Illegal" Linux kernels? "
Actually if Palladium gets adopted by the masses, that might be exactly what Dell hardware is saying.
You license the hardware, you don't own it.
Tell that to the secondary market. Hardware is a physical tangible hard-to-copy thing that is owned. If I had an X-Box, I could take little wires and a soldering iron and do anything I want to its innards, risking only voiding the warranty. If I just wanted to use the CPU to keep a little cup of tea warm, I could, and you couldn't stop me.
If you ever tried that with my gaming console (yes, I'm a developer for a major game company, not MS), I'll send my lawyers after you so fast you'll be in jail getting assfucked by Bubba and his friends.
Whatever.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
There is a reasonable case to be made for protecting the console makers. Copyright law was enacted for exactly the same reasons, and not many people are arguing for copyright to be abolished. Without the low cost of entry, there would be no consoles. The public want to buy consoles for $300, so a legal safe harbour can be created by protecting the console maker's right to get a royalty on the games. I don't see a problem with this. However, there is currently no such legal safe harbour, and people that have already bought XBox consoles should be able to hack legally, only when the law changes should new purchasers be banned from hacking.
Last time I checked, MAME was not a business. They're just a bunch of software coders trying to give the world something for free.
Kinda like linux, but more game-oriented.
They're not a bunch of money-grubbing capitalist emulator developers, trying to "piggyback on top of MS's sales."
Here's a copy/paste of the article in case the site gets /.'d. Please mod me up
Of course, your "overview" post can't possibly be mistaken for a troll for karma, now can it?
You license the hardware, you don't own it.
That explains it, your gray matter license has expired.
6 replies.
You have learned much, but there is still far more before you have mastered the art of Trolling, grasshopper.
But try doing Kevin Bacon ...
A press release from Microsoft stated that game developers were flocking to XBox. Xbox now has 3802 games.
Considering many of these consoles end up in the hands of children who generally don't follow the rules on proper CD/DVD handling, a mod chip should be at the top of the list for any parent who doesn't want to re-buy those $80 games everytime the kids step on 'em.
This is a totally legitimate use of a mod chip, and isn't piracy at all!
So short-sighted, the "anti-piracy" squad can be.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Overrated? That seems damn insightful to me.... what are the moderators smoking today?
Proud day for you and your family.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Just keep standing your ground. The more they keep forcing things down the public's throat the more it is going to drive it home to the average user. Eventually people will wake up from their slumber and say they have had enough.
I personally don't buy any MS products nor do I recommend them to family and friends. Their products are below average in capabilities. They do not comply with standards and generally don't play well with others. Reminds me of the little snot-nosed brat who used to live on my street. He always had to be one-up with everybody, always had to have his view/opinion taken as THE view/opinion, etc. I find MS attitude (albeit business) to be aggressive, abusive, subversive and exploitive to competition. By taking down the binaries, they are refusing people's desire for inovation and just plain old fun tinkering around a piece of equipment. MS would have you keep the "blinders" on so-to-speak as they did with mules/horses in times past.
Keep smothering us, MS. You are doing exactly what some of the big guys did back years ago and you see where they are now. Apple is not as competitive as it used to be. They had the processor code locked down to a subset of vendors/developers. IBM locked individuals into long-term expensive tech support (anyone remember the poor description of errors? only their technicians new and charged outrageously).
Meanwhile, I think I will continue to tinker, play and learn. It's, after all, what I enjoy doing. I can't be forced to be a groupie or dumbed-down(out). If I am, then I turn my attention to vendors who do. I know my children play on a SONY box not that cheap retro-fitted PC wannabe. I do my coding on Linux for multiple environments using standard items. Java is doing ok and my customers aren't complaining in regards to their applications.
Obviously if a dealer cant sell them, no one can sell them on EBay, either. And they'll enforce them. XBox was a waste of time on MSFTs part.
In Win32 development?
And then you run the code in Lindows, Wine, etc....Doesn't MS own the code to MFC42.DLL, DIRECTX.DLL etc etc?
Step one: Place X-Box on secure platform.
Step two: Place drink on X-Box
Step three: Turn on Gamecube and enjoy.
Terminator: Future Shock - The game Halo was a clone of. Also a much more fun game and better atmosphere. Multiplayer, vehicals you can drive yadda yadda. Halo is teh sux for FPS gaming.. Compare it to Half-Life or Wolfenstien, and it is just a sad sad game.
But, try doing Kevin Bacon...
Cuecat scanner? Hard ware hacked to what avail? Where are they now? Cuecats, that is...
And we wonder why software developers have a reputation for poor social skills.
[CARTOONY DRIVEL DELETED]
Those who really use lawyers, just use them.
They don't whine about how they have to.
You sound just like a two-bit spammer claiming its right to "frea speach" is being violated when all people are doing is using their own property as they see fit.
Microsoft has indeed learned from their business model. This is in effect a good reason NOT to buy an XBox, but to stick to games for your PC, preserve that market and you'll still have the option to buy games for it in 5 years. You buy games for proprietary game consoles and watch the PC market wither and you'll have been your own worst enemy (and still be pointing the finger at them to blame.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Are u sure they could do that? Because if the person bought them before MSFT made a deal of them, and when it was ok to sell them on Ebay (MSFT hasn't said anything before about this have they?), then could they go back and get people for what they did in the past?...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Do you know how much piracy took away from profits on the original PSX? Almost a billion in profits. People were sticking a chip in the PSX and renting games for 2 days only to burn their own copies. Sure companies still made money, but they coulda made a hell of a lot more.. Taking money away from developers is sad. I know this has nothing to do with the MAME stuff, but mod chips in general are created to allow games that were illegally copied to run on said system. While other uses can be mentioned, you simply cannot deny the primary reason. This is why Napster took a big dump. Sure, lots of indy people were sharing, but the majority were just ripping off everyone. And while music is a touchy subject, games really arent. It's cut and dry since you can rent games before you buy them, and with music you really cant unless you wade through hours of crap on the radio. Sigh.
So what you're saying is that instead of pricing the console appropriately, we should just jack up the price of games so that game makers can pay their license fees to the console maker? What difference does it make? In this case, only Microsoft are so bad at this market that they are losing their shirt on the consoles themselves. Traditionally cost to produce consoles have not run so far over shelf price as Xbox has.
Personally I like the idea that when I buy a piece of hardware, anyone who wants can write software to run on that hardware. MAME has other problems (especially since many popular vintage games are still actively sold by legal rights holders), but they have every right (imho) to sell or offer for free game software that runs on Xbox.
I do not have a signature
Whoa! My bad -- you meant that we'd all be using secure Unix boxen, right? dude, I apologize wholeheartedly. Sometimes jokes go sailing straight over my head...
My bad...
Phil
giveing away things for free is just like selling them for 0$.
I'm only replying because by some miraculous wonder, you did not get modded down.
There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
I'll repeat the obvious, Import games that are regionally encoded with no plans to ship to your region.
"Well, my modified Dreamcast lets me make my own games and play them!" No, it lets you play burned games that you download from the Internet.
There are people that do write their own DC games. Just because the majority of people use it to steal games that aren't being produced, or sold right now does not make everyone who modifies thier machine a pirate (and the people who do steal games are not right just because they aren't available anymore, either).
as soon as you put a burned game into that machine, you've committed a felony
This is not always true. You are allowed to make backup copies of software you legally own. I only bring copies of my music CD's to work, does that mean I'm a felon whenever I listen to "3 Doors Down"?
Why do you think Microsoft included an ethernet adapter? It's because when "Xbox Live" goes live, they can see your machine. They could see your saved games, they could see how often you play, and nobody would be the wiser. Why? Because the entire operating system is proprietary, and there's no way to disassemble it. You couldn't even install a piece of software on the Xbox to trap packets coming out of it, because it would have to be approved by Microsoft.
And you AREN'T bothered by them watching what you do on your home entertainment system? Remember that they are adding a PVR to this machine, they will watch that as well. (My only hope is that they use information about what people REALLY watch on TV to keep from cancelling the good shows. Of course, I know I'm going to be sadly disappointed by finding out what people really watch). What happens if someone watches an adult movie on their X-box one night when the kids aren't home, only to have "adult entertainment" ads invade their home for the next few weeks when the kids are home. This should bother everyone.
No legit user would ever want or need to open up their console to play games
I agree and disagree with this statement. This IS why people buy console machines. You have a black box, toss in a game, flip a switch, and you're playing. That's all it's supposed to be, no more, no less.
I disagree with it because many legit users open their machines for fun. Who didn't open up their nintendo or atari at some point (usually near the end of it's life) just to see what it was like on the inside? Saying no legit user should ever have to open it up for any reason is akin to saying no driver should ever look at their engine: They don't know what is happening, and could only either break it, or be doing it for an illegal purpose.
The amount of "good" games is controlled by the console manufacturers already. Sony releases fewer games in the U.S. as it does in Japan, Nintendo is not much better. I'm sure that Microsoft will do the opposite (release more games in America than Japan), at least I hope so. Modern games being copied hurt game developers severely. Older games aren't the same way. The people who put the blood and sweat to work on them usually aren't with the same company 15 years later. There are Three different games that are freeware for MAME even.
As for your last argument, THAT should have earned you flaimbait -1 right away.
Mod chips don't make felons - copied games make felons.
TDY
Bah. That whould have been in reply to the crud in italics, not to the parent post.
Bah.. I hate it when I do stupid stuff.
Let say you have your modded Xbox, online, through whatever method you can get your Xbox online.
Then lets assume you have a game you want to play (dupe or not a dupe) online. Halo: Online edition, sports, DOA online, whatever.
What is going to stop MS from giving your Xbox an online update? In order to play online you're gonna need to connect to their servers, right? They want COMPLETE control over the online servers to prevent cheating, so that is gonna give them the ability to roll updates to the BIOS, games, etc, to make sure all of these games are "cheat" free.
A BIOS update, to the Xbox (I'm sure its possible, its a PC, right?) could effectively kill the mod chip(s) in the system. Could they also disable the Xbox until the mod chip is out of the system? Possibly.
Now, lets think about the possibility of someone hacking the game servers and running them? Someone could figure out how to run their own Xbox game servers and MS will shut down them. No on could play online, with the Xbox, without MS in the middle.
Sure, its an Xbox, its from MS, and we own the box, but they certainly could try to enfore their own rules on a system you own and operate. Enjoy the Xbox now, but you *may* not be able to enjoy the Xbox's online with the modifications.
just on loan?
since it is still, according to most of you , property of microsoft, then what the hell are you Buying it for?
My point being buy a cheap top end ps2/ps1 and use the existing *nix ports.
It is my firm belief that as long as you enter partnership with MicroSoft one would not face this dilemma (or buying the sdk) so buy it, partner up but please stop whining like the little brother that got sucker punched...
Do Something...
fyi im a bsd / wxp troll
"There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do NOT wave in a Vacuum " --Arthur C Clarke
You're replying to the parent of my post? Perhaps I should have been clearer with the quoted text.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Sure, research from Enigmah-X, based in China, has been shut down, but we can purhcase these chips. I believe Liksang.com, located in Hong Kong, still sells these chips. If you ever make a trip to the Far East, be sure to check out China and Thailand. A popular Asian philosophy that implies that "knowledge is free" is a reason why local officials drag thier feet to shut down production operations or enforce intellectual property laws. Movies, software, video games, and a long list of other items are considered "knowledge" there, which explains the existence of their large "piracy" market. Mod chip development, which involves research and development, is also considered as something needed to attain what is considered "knowledge", for example video games. (However, China has begun a recent crackdown on software-related piracy in recent months, as it tries its hardest to enter the WTO).
In Thailand, you can obtain PS2 and Xbox games from 2.50-5 bucks a pop. Ps2 and Xbox mod chips in Hong Kong cost less than 110 of US currency in the local markets and stores, last time I checked. X-box Mod chip development will likely pop up in Asian countries, so be on the lookout if your interested in this subject.
The Asian mentality which states that "knowledge is free", which is Confucian in origin, is something a so-called "Westerner" may not understand, especially when that person lives in a country full of IP laws. This explains the seemingly endless battle of American companies, such as Microsoft, against the gargantuan "piracy" markets of Asia.
Also, this quote from a paper of a student of Rutgers University titled "Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China" describes the situtation of IPR (Intellectual Protperty Rights) in China:
"Confucius's concept of the transmission of culture and Marx's views on the social nature of language and invention arose from very different ideological foundations. Nonetheless, because each school of thought in its own way saw intellectual creation as fundamentally a product of the larger society from which it emerged, neither elaborated a strong rationale for treating it as establishing private ownership interests.[15] Deeply influenced by these two ideologies, China falls behind all developed countries and many developing countries in the field of intellectual property protection. It is also not difficult to understand why most of Chinese did not know what were IPRs in 1980s."
As one can see, the IP battle between West and East began with ideas created in the West and East. Microsoft's successful attempt to shut down R&D on the Enigmah-X is part of it.
As one famous Chinese scholar once wrote:
"To steal a book is elegance."
More information on the reasons behind the East-West IP battle can be found in here:
"Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China", an essay written by Sheng Ding
"To Steal A Book is an Elegant Offense: Intellectual Property Law in Chinese Civilization" by William P. Alford
So they are selling them for nothing? Then there is no issue.
Bullshit. Their control ends when I purchase the product. If they choose to sell it at a loss hoping to make money on licensing that's their problem. THEY don't have an understanding of business. What if I buy the machine and never buy any games, am I in the wrong then. Am I morally obligated to make sure their business model works. No. Do they have any right whatsoever to tell me what to do with something I purchased. Fuck no. It is mine, I will do with it what I choose, when I choose, regardless of whatever freedom sapping law corporations buy through the government.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Just because nobody cares, doesn't make it right. I don't care if you copy and play all those old games, maybe you are even doing them a service. Just don't go around spouting off about how it's your right to do so.
It's true that some of the games that MAME plays would not even exist anymore if it wasn't for MAME. But some of the games it plays, like the ones from the later part of the 90's, are still in arcades and still exist. It's just a 'grey' area and that's only cause nobody cares. If people cared, then it would be wrong to copy the games because you are stealing people's content.
I guess that it come down to the question if you steal something and nobody cares, did you really steal anything at all?
yes, but that still doesn't explain how microsoft stands to lose any money at all on this.
actually, MAME is one of the few things that could prompt me to buy an X-BOX. I've been looking to build a MAME console inside this old arcade case a friend of mine has, X BOX + 20 inch TV + arcade pad + MAME = arcade fun without keyboard hassles.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Fah, Nintendo has the cheapest console and they actually make money selling them. Microsoft created a console that is quite a bit more expensive to produce than Sony's or Nintendo's and they sell them at a significant loss because they know that otherwise they wouldn't sell very many. They hope to make back this loss with game royalties and services, but it isn't my responsibility to make sure they do. If Microsoft wants to guarantee that they don't lose money on XBox purchases then they need to raise the price of their goods.
Sometimes companies just come up with bad business plans. Microsoft is apparently not immune to this trait.
< There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console
Right, but also...
It allows people to write new programs for it. I could write a recipie database, a web server, or GrandTheftSpaceShuttle3000 and sell it or give it away for free.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I dont give a damn about 'aup' or anything like it.
I *OWN* the damned thing, i didnt lease it. So im free to do what ever i want in my own home. Be it mod it, or beat it with my fist.
Same goes for the software, its mine. Period.
Now if i try to make money off it, different story..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
not many people are arguing for copyright to be abolished
You must be new around here...
My next computer is going to be a Mac. I want try and be as MS Free as I can be. Before long they are going to say anything built with VB or ASP is fully owned by them.
You don't like MS's policy for the X-box? Don't buy the X-box. Don't buy accessories for for your X-box if you already have one. And especially don't buy any more games. You want a console buy either a Game Cube or a PS2, and stop whining about Halo or whatever not being available for it.
People whine about Microsoft bashing and whatnot saying that "Not everything that comes out of the Evil Empire is bad". Yes, everything that does come from the Evil empire is bad. Anything that is visibly bad is simply appeasment to get people to look the other way while they keep twisting the knife. The have 40 billion in cash, (probably 45 billion by now), they only way they are going to change is by adamant refusal to buy their products, and showing that everything they do is simply to entrench their monopoly: Palladium and .NET for example. You want to fight policies, hold an X-Box party and run over the damn things with a steamroller.
How many of you MS bashers out there still have an X-box and are still buying games out there? You hippocrits know who I'm talking about. If you want to bash MS, bash your X-box and buy a PS2. Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is.
And you know what else?
Fuck you you good for nothing pirate. You can do whatever the fuck you want with your hardware. Throw it out the window.. masturbate all over the joypad.. and Microsoft won't give a fuck.
People want mod chips so they can PIRATE GAMES.
But you can't accept that can you? Guns don't kill people, people kill people right?
Create/Sell your own GNU/GPL console then.. the best part is that you won't then buy an XBox, and drive up the price of my games with your piracy.
They've already announced as much...I've been saying for a while now that the X-Box is the first step towards a Microsoft-branded PC.
This is the future they want: Windows will only run on the Microsoft PC. Every X-Box sale brings us closer to even worse monomode consolidation and thinking.
So, even if MS manages to kill of all of the mod. chip makers, you can still do a homebrew mod by flashing a flashrom on your computer mobo with the hacked bios and wiring it up. This puts the power to mod. you XBox in your hands, but unfortunately it looks as if MS is targeting people illegally using their XDK. What we need is an open sdk for the XBox and/or to wait a bit longer for XBox Linux. Anyway, I'm glad I grabbed MAMEX already.
'He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.' - Douglas Adams
It's been communicated to me that when someone says 'whatever', its really just a somewhat polite way of saying 'Fuck you'. With this guy, i wouldn't be polite.
Why not? It's perfectly acceptable to make a business out of modifying hardware systems. Ever hear of cars or trucks?
--
"'Freely' using Microsoft since 1980"
This is a joke! The hardware does not belong to Microsoft. When you buy the hardware you should be able to do what you want with it. You are not bootlegging software, you are opening the box so that you can run open source code. there is no
way Microsoft should be able to stop users from doing what they want with the hardware.
So.. why not boycott the piece of junk and build a
true opensource product?
I donno, it seemed too obvious to me, but you can't argue with the results. On the troll scale, I'd give it a 65, Dick, It's got a good beat and you can dance to it.
Hey, now wait a minute. A kick in the ass I can understand, but the X-BOX people have to get IE too? Be humane, please!
Microsoft making a big song and dance about this will surely result in more publicity for MAME. Wonder how long it'll be until there's a MAME that'll work on X-BOX without needing a mod-chip? That'll really hurt MS as lots of people get lots of great games, and MS don't make a dime out of it - heck, they actually lose money because the console itself is a loss-leader (even if they are using slave labor over in China now to make 'em)
all I can say "Holy Fucking Shit" Zach and Brian I hope Microsoft didn't bite off to much of your ass... Post the email if you can!
You're still a moron, colmore.
Plz fx, thx.
So, what they can do:
Use the SDK to build gcc.
Use the resulting gcc to build gcc2
gcc2 is then MS-free. Now distribute gcc2.
I hear ya there...I saw Halo at a friend's place. After all the hype and BS about this game, you can imagine my shock at seeing "yet another damned shooter, but THIS time with crappy gamepad controls!"
Seriously, there isn't a single thing about Halo that is new or great...and don't give me that "but you can drive vehicles!" crap...hell, you could drive vehicles in Tomb Raider II, and how many years old is that??
Gamepads stink in general, but for FPS games they are almost useless. And besides--what's WITH the whole gamepad thing? I'm right-handed...why am I forced to control things with my left thumb? Back in the good old days, when people knew how to make a good JOYSTICK, I drove the stick with my RIGHT hand. Damn, Wico really knew how to make a good joystick in those days...
It costs Microsoft money the same way refilling ink cartridges costs printer companies money. Microsoft is losing something like $150 on each X-Box it sells. Any X-Box that is used for something other than selling game cartridges cost MS money.
It's also similar to the situation where people were selling cheap internet appliances expecting to lock people into long, expensive ISP contracts. Anyone who bought one and hacked it to use as a cheap terminal was costing the company money.
Another similarly ineffective money losing endeaver was the CueCat debacle. Remember their value attempts to prevent people from hacking on hardware that they were giving away at Radio Shack?
Perhaps the real issue is whether there's any enforceable law that props up a business model that obvious gaping holes in it. Maybe the DMCA is applicable here? Are hackers bypassing any protective measures included by MS?
Dude, you're a dork.
I don't want to pirate games (I'm a game designer, so that goes against my principles - I buy all of my games) but I would like to be able to watch VCDs of my student films, or play old arcade favorites using MAME, or watch Hong Kong or Japanese flicks that have yet to make it to region one.
Despite the fact that people pirate MS software, they remaine one of the most profitable game companies around. Recently, a Sony exec admitted that piracy helped sell the first PlayStation, making it one of the most successful console in gaming history. I don't buy the idea that piracy hurts business, whether it's software, games, CDs or movies. The issue here is control, not profits. They want to retain control on how the box is used, just like they want to control what you'll do with your PC with Palladium. They want us to be consumers, not participants. But they are fighting a losing battle, IMHO.
Reminder: find a new sig
(Score: -1, praeteritio)
and for me:
(Score: -1, erudite humor)
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
No, copyright was enacted origionally as a censorship tool, and is currently used to artificially create scarcity for protected ideas, which then gives those ideas commercial value. Hardware, being a physical thing, is inherently scarce, and on that point your copyright analogy falls in upon itself.
Anyone who sells hardware for less than it costs to produce is an idiot. If people aren't willing to pay at least the cost of production, then either your product or your process needs to be redesigned.
Once I have bought a piece of hardware it is mine and I can do with it whatever I want. I can modify it, sell it, rent it out, smash it with a hammer, or use it as a fishtank and there's not a goddamned thing they can do about it. That idea is the basis of our economic system, and it is the reason why I can by parts for my truck that weren't made by Dodge. This is true for all hardware. It does not suddenly become untrue for consoles because Microsoft couldn't handle the basic laws of supply and demand. Sony and Nintendo seem to be doing just fine without such protection.
Are you honestly saying that you would have no problem with a law that required every console purchaser to also purchase X number of officially produced games for that console? Would you also have no problem with a law that requires you to get your car serviced only by official dealer mechanics using only official dealer parts? Are you honestly foolish enough to believe that such a law would benefit you, the consumer?
The simple fact is that Microsoft fucked up. They tried to apply a software business model to hardware, and it just won't work. Too fucking bad, I say. It's not my responsibility to bail them out of the hole they dug for themselves. That's what they have $40 billion in the bank for, and if they didn't have that I guess they'd just have to disappear, just like 3DO, TurboGrafix, and SEGA did before them.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
A dollar a gallon for premium???
Geez...I pay a buck and a half a gallon for regular.
You can't distribute a Microsoft-free Xbox binary and then say to people "Just Add Microsoft from your own Xbox binary!", because the process that signs the binary is the copyrighted software that Microsoft is objecting to.
Basically, if you can write your own software to sign a binary that an Xbox will accept, then you're golden. Unfortunately that requires breaking Microsoft's encryption keys...
Why doesn't someone make a system that uses a chip that coincidentally can replace the X-Box chip...and then sell components.
One wonders when Ford Motor Company will start telling people they can't put mag wheels on their cars without voiding the warranty, or worse, having their corporate lawyers shut down the mag wheel manufacturers. Like George H W Bush, I must have been in the men's room when the congress passed a law making M$ a law unto themselves. The only people with the legal right to circulate a physical object without giving up all control over how that object is used are the federal government, and that product is the currency of the United States (or any other government/currency).
Somebody with deep pockets and an interest in the preservation of property rights in this world where the Communist Chinese butchers can be considered a valuable ally and the American president can sit down to tea with a scoundrel like Vladimir Rootin' Tootin' Putin needs to countersue the M$ cretins over loss of these constitutionally guaranteed property rights.
Funny what people think they can get away with when they've been paying off their local representatives to the government in Washington.
OT: Do you suppose the SEC is going to look at M$'s accounting practices? One wonders what are considered daily expenses and what is considered capital expense around Redmond.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
MS just shot themselves in the foot, methinks Mame had the potential to bring revenue to MS in terms of the reluctant Mame fanboys and pc emulators now without the possibility of mods and ports XBox is looking less tempting now.
ie:the Nazi occupations of Lativa/Poland
Fah, Nintendo has the cheapest console and they actually make money selling them.
Could you please prove this using data, not speculation? Mr. Gord doesn't count has a reference either.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Does anyone on here really care about this?
/.ers that (gasp) actually PURCHASED an X-Box? I'm *SHOCKED*! I thought we hated Microsoft, not supported their reign of terror?
You mean to tell me that there are
Also, for syntax purposes, what is the plural of X-Box: X-Boxs or X-Boxes?
Chris
This entire thing is ridiculous. Having the chip is not morally wrong. Running Linux on your X-Box is not Morally wrong. Copying your friends game and running it on your modded xbox..now that is morally wrong. Legally they are all wrong. Quit bitching to the masses and bitch to your congressman. That is the only want this changes.
Hmm... if the final binary has to be byte-for-byte identical with that generated by the development tools, so that the signature keeps working, then it could get tricky. But still I think it is possible to 'bleep out' all portions of MS-copyright code in the binary - replace them with zeroes - and then the user at the other end can combine this censored version with a real Xbox binary to get back the original. A real PITA though.
Hang on, can you explain this stuff with the signing keys again? Wasn't the MAME port that Microsoft objected to itself a signed binary? If you have access to the development kit, which can generate signed binaries, then you already have Microsoft's encryption keys. Or am I missing something?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
People should pirate shit. It helps get the word out and sell more, becuase it helps breed enthusiasm for whatever is being pirated.
These corps should stop worring about collecting every cent, and making us all criminals in the process. They should change thier business model to allow for some piracy. Piracy is IMPOSSIBLE to prevent. So why fight it, you still get money, just not rediculous gobs of it.
You are suggesting that people not be allowed to do what they want with a physical item they have purchased?
That's crazy talk, man.
What's next? Cars that you aren't allowed to work on yourself, or even take to any mechanic besides the dealership?
No, copyright was enacted origionally as a censorship tool.
Back this statement up with facts, please.
Anybody serious about monitoring what comes into and out of an X-Box is gonna put the X-Box on a subnet behind a firewall and run ethereal on the subnet.
You're thinking like somebody with one single box.
Evolve a little, kay?
"If we achieve our sales targets (of 4 million), we should be able to make an operating profit in the GameCube business this year," said Nintendo's managing director Yoshiro Mori at a news conference.
- older cnn story
"Shipments of the GameCube were expected to jump to 12 million in 2002/03 from last year's 4 million, and output was tipped to surge after the launch of production in China."
"In early estimates of its results, Nintendo said that net profit for the year to 31 March had risen 14%" - bbc story
They said that they would be in the black on Gamecube sales if they sold 4 million of them. They did that, before the price drop. They could be lying, but I tend to believe them.
Also, their reported profits have been rising, and though some of that is probably a result of the GBA, it seems likely that a lot of it is to do with the Gamecube as well.
Actually, the OS isn't totally proprietary http://www.xbox365.com/stories/xdkcomplete.shtml.
... Serial number, globally unique ... They know what shop you bought it in ... Shops have CCTV ... THEY HAVE PICTURES OF YOU! A
But if you want to start a conspiracy - Ethernet, MAC address, globally uniqueq
codegolf.com - smaller *is* better.
Joysticks suck for platform games. You have to move the stick to far to change directions
It costs Microsoft money the same way refilling ink cartridges costs printer companies money. Microsoft is losing something like $150 on each X-Box it sells. Any X-Box that is used for something other than selling game cartridges cost MS money.
Wrong. What costs MS money is selling the X-Box below cost. That money is already lost. They hope to balance that loss with profits from games. Nothing you do after purchasing that X-Box will cost Microsoft money.
Congratulations, you have been trolled. And someone was even dumb enough to mod you up for replying to an OBVIOUS troll.
You, sir, need to get out more. Dumbfuck.
"...just like no legit person would ever need to open up their toaster "to make sure it works."
Actually, you would open your toaster if you couldn't toast imported bread because it was shaped so you couldn't fit it in the toaster.
I think the reason most Slashdotters interested in this topic want a mod chip is simply to run Linux on the XBOX.
"Derp de derp."
Even Sony has admitted that sales of Playstations increased when mod-chips became available.
This M$ world domination scheme must stop.
If I were to buy an X-Box it would ONLY be after a divx mod was available. Until then, I will absolutely not give M$ even one cent.
But I can still understand why they're upset, even though they have only themselves to blame for the situation. They practically give away the box to entice people to buy the software for it, knowing that this is the best way to gain a bigger market share since so many people already have PS's Nintendo's and whatnot.
It's like when a cell phone company gives you the cell phone in return for spending money on usage. They lose money by giving you the phone, but make it back in service charges. The main difference here is that Microsoft does not require anyone to sign up for a monthly service and as such are not guaranteed any additional income. So, since they're losing money on the box itself, it doesn't make sense that no further income is guaranteed. Nobody can run a business like that.
IF they did require a monthly service one would require to sign up for, I don't think a lot of people would even consider buying the box when the competition doesn't and has a bigger selection of software available. This is exactly why the X-Box is likely not to be the success Microsoft wants it to be. Anyone who buys any type of electronic gadget has every right to do with it whatever he or she wants. They can even plug it in and drop it in their bathtub in order to kill themselves if they want to. If Microsoft relies solely on revenue from software bought AFTER the initial sale of the box, when that sale is not required, it's just a plain dumb business plan. I don't think ANY other company could suggest that kind of wishful thinking to it's shareholders. But because Microsoft has billions to spend on this endeavour they can stand to lose money longer than most companies, before seeing a profit. The question is, how long are the shareholders willing to wait? How long before the X-Box either goes up in price or off the market?
-- This sig for rent.
What Palladium is proposing is that the boot decryption keys are embedded in the CPU itself. They need AMD & Intel's cooperation for this, of course, and now they have it. This way, it's all but impossible to modify the boot code or to view the encryption keys, except perhaps by shaving the top off the CPU & examining the ROM mask directly with a (very) high-powered microscope.
Palladium may not take off (there's going to be a lot of privacy concerns, and it's going to be very difficult to secure comprehensive industry support, or it just won't fly), but they sure as hell can implement it in Xbox 2.
Even this approach can be defeated by e.g. bugs, human error, social engineering etc etc, but it makes things a lot harder to crack/reverse engineer from the hardware/software aspect. Look for Xbox 2 as a feasibility study of the Palladium concept.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
It wasn'y clear from any of those links on what gounds microsoft objected. It wasn't a port of one of their games, was it, but rather to their platform?
How is this different from apple throwing a hissy fit because I've ported galeon to run native on carbon (which I haven't, but for sake of argument)?
I truly am confused, not just shocked, shocked. Not askign you to justify M$ reasoning, just explain it.
The guy's an obvious liar. I highly doubt that anyone with enough intelligence to be programming console games would have an immature attitude like that. Besides, he/she can't even tell the difference between hardware/software when it comes to licensing. You DON'T license a console. At least yet anyways..
We wouldn't be able to modify our engines in any way ... Or pc manufacturers for that matter ... those with 386's would be stuck with 386's ... This is ridiculous!!!
Based on the context this is based on the CameCube business, not the console as an individual product. The GameCube business is based on the accesseries and games that they sell. What they are doing is making an assumption that the GC will have a sustaining or increasing attach rate, and based on that attach rate that they will profit after about 4 million units sold. Nowhere did they say that there was a profit margin on the actual production of the consoles.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Hahahahha!! My post (parent) got modded down as "redundant"!
I thought my post would make other posts redundant. I guess I should have posted sooner, they must have made mine redundant.
"Derp de derp."
Since M$ has dick and shit there... China servers can host it and MS can't do diddly there.
Yah, we know you know how to link. How about a single link about the news you want to share?
Or would a more realistic question be what didn't they threaten them with?
Refillable ink cartridges are an excellent analogy to this XBOX situation - if I remember correctly, the major printer manufacturers are getting sued over the way they handle the pricing of their printer cartridges. The point is that both businesses sell the major hardware so cheap that they lose money on it, assuming that they will make the money back from sales of accessories. From a business standpoint, this approach is flawed because of the changes in the ways consumers approach intellectual property.
Let's extend your analogy a bit. I'll start a car company, and make cars that require a special type of fuel. I'll price the car competetively against others on the market. How long before someone else starts producing my fuel at a cheaper price? Not long. Who cares if it "costs the company money" when you buy from the cheaper source?
Now hackers have provided alternative "accessories" for the XBOX, and no one cares about Microsoft's business plan.
-dbc
If I buy War and Peace and use it to beat my groin in a strange masturbatory experience, then Tolstoy shouldn't get all pissed off - he got his money, and I got a bruised crotch.
Ah ha! Thats how you came to be banned from the library!
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Heh, the dollar a gallon part sounds kind of nice right now...
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Are they going to stop production of the Win32 version of Mame now too? (rhetorical question)
I would like to see on what grounds they stopped the port of Mame.
However, if you buy a satellite receiver and use it as a door stop you will still be charged for the satellite service you never actually purchased.
Not to inject any sort of rational thought into this, but didn't Sony go after a bunch of PS2 Mod-Chippers? I'm not sure how this is really that different.
Giving away copies of Mame is hardly making a profit, but even for those making and selling mod chips, so what? They are not doing anything illegal (afaik). They didn't steal trade secret information, they legitimately reverse engineered the console. For M$ to claim no one can do such things goes contrary to all precedent and logic. If you buy a car you can have a third party company customize it, repaint it, add spoilers, a sunroof, or more, even when the factory offers the same features. I can't think of any industry other than M$ and the console industry where such a concept of not being able to modify a product and use as you see fit is applied to a product that you buy, and that has to include being able to buy the modification parts from someone who legitimately designed and made them.
If Microsoft grew food they would claim that no one could buy that food and then open their own restaurant.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If the XMAME port isn't signed, then how can it be violating Microsoft's TOS? The mod chip required to run it is definitely a violation, but the software itself obviously is not, since it can't even run on an unmodified console. I think this is grounds for a lawsuit.
and makes the money back on the games. If you used this computer as a Linux box - Microsoft would lose money ($100 per box). I don't think they care about their SDK too much.
How many XBox owners got lots of broken arcade PCBs of games which can (thus legally) be played with MAME?
Not many I guess.
And for all the other Xbox MAME fans, I don't think the very few arcade games which have been now released as Public Domain are really worth the hassle.
UNIX boxes are not as secure as you think. I've always found them fun to hack. Whereas MSFT boxes are boring to hack and not worth the time.
And in other news today, trees are made of wood...
It costs Microsoft money the same way refilling ink cartridges costs printer companies money. Microsoft is losing something like $150 on each X-Box it sells. Any X-Box that is used for something other than selling game cartridges cost MS money.
Microsoft isn't some charity they are a commercial enterprise. If their business model does not work then it's up to them to find one which does work. They have huge assets to tide them over whilst they do this. A company which didn't would probably simply go bankrupt.
The basic idea behind free market capitalism is that both suppliers and customers look out for their own interests.
It's also similar to the situation where people were selling cheap internet appliances expecting to lock people into long, expensive ISP contracts. Anyone who bought one and hacked it to use as a cheap terminal was costing the company money.
Ditto, it was up for the people who made the I-Opener to find a business model which worked. IIRC in some places bundling of hardware and service contracts is actually illegal.
Another similarly ineffective money losing endeaver was the CueCat debacle. Remember their value attempts to prevent people from hacking on hardware that they were giving away at Radio Shack?
Also mailing these as unsolicited gifts. Attempting to base an entire enterprise around a loss leader is a risky business.
Perhaps the real issue is whether there's any enforceable law that props up a business model that obvious gaping holes in it.
There certainly shouldn't be. The right thing for such a business to do in this situation is to either use their reserves/credit or go bankrupt.
MS preventing MAME for XBox is like smacking your grandmother so she'll shut up about living through WWII.
Glad someone's at least TRYING to keep the old games around.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
Microsoft isn't very smart in the best sense of the word. They try to act soon on these infringes, yet it only encourages people to go underground with these things, and god knows underground stuff allways runs faster, better and more secure
Seriously, the reason why the console doesn't sell as good as ps2 is simple: lack of good games, and high component cost. People trying to mod the box are undercutting the one feeble pillar xbox might rely on to survive: selling games. And these games aren't just produced by Microsoft. There are other companies involved that realy have nothing to do with MS, they simply target a dev. platform that happens to be Xbox. Whether that is a smart thing is something else, but they aren't gonna be making much more games if no one brings in some cash to compensate x years of development. MS needs those 3rd party teams to live. Interestingly, those teams do not per se need MS.
But microsoft makes other mistakes as well. Today it's far easier to get a modded xbox - or even a ps2 devkit - than an xbox development kit. It seems MS is unable to supply developpers on time, jeoppardizing milestones, release dates,
MS is in for a threat. The whole thing is costing them far more than their worst predictions, and their supply lines are drying up. They do have enough cash, but while they may live, the rest of the pack will have crossed over big time, or gone bust. And they can't possibly get the xbox thing going without that crucial 3rd party support be it games or video or IP or whatever. MS is a very very slow learner in this very hot market where the competition is neckbreaking steep, and Sony is your best bet. For now. Xbox will live, no matter what.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Look up the history of copyright in British common law. The origional intent of copyright was to give the crown control over what could be published. Here and here are some decent sites detailing the history of copyright (in the US and UK, respectively). In particular, I'm refering to the Licensing Act of 1662, which granted publishers the monopoly currently refered to as copyright in exchange for censorship of information deemed damaging to the church or government.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
"It allows people to write new programs for it. I could write a recipie database, a web server, or GrandTheftSpaceShuttle3000 and sell it or give it away for free."
That's why I want it. Well, not for GTSS3K, but a different program. I've had lots of fun writing stuff for the GBA, but I'm ready for a more powerful platform now. I'm looking forward to writing a hobbyist game for the XBox.
Yes one must wathc out for the leigons of fans which only buy from 1 company....because of the console they have. Many people will get both though one easy reason for this would be FFX and Monky Ball. & I bet you never bought a turbo grafix or Neo-Geo when tey were out either.
Quit whining!
There can't be competition if you do not support the alternate choices, I agree with that.
But that does not mean that you should by a product that will not do what you want it to.
Microsoft is not really a good choice for competition because they are showing a wilingness to use the same buisness tactics (bullieing and whatnot) in the console market as they did in the OS market. So I'm going to support a known not as evil rather than the new tasty evil just because it is different.
Jerry : So were going to make the Post Office pay for my new stereo?
Kramer : It's just a write off for them.
Jerry : How is it a write off?
Kramer : They just write it off.
Jerry : Write it off what?
Kramer : Jerry all these big companies they write off everything.
Jerry : You don't even know what a write off is.
Kramer : Do you?
Jerry : No. I don't.
Kramer : But they do and they are the ones writing it off.
Jerry : I wish I just had the last twenty seconds of my life back.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
Um ... hello? This is so illogical it makes my head spin. The only reason people can claim that piracy drives up the cost of games is that if more people were buying games, you could create an economy of scale (or something), thus resulting in lower prices for all. If I choose to pirate a game--and I don't, but that's another story--the impact on the bottom line of the game manufacturer is exactly the same--exactly--as if I had just not purchased it at all. If someone chooses not to buy a game, whether for piracy or because there's a better platform available, it has the same effect on you.
But you're also assuming that the price of games is being determined by market forces. Sure, and so are CD prices....
Read Bujold. Free (as in
Funny, i got my PSX modded and i don't own a single pirate game. However i do own several japanese imports and a copy of ThrillKill (it was never released, so i wouldn't really consider it pirating)
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
once the xbox is purchased, wouldn't any mods done to it become your business? i wonder what would happen if the auto industry followed suit and decided that you couldn't supe up your car or add any after market items to it
I'm not completely familliar with all the weird quirks of your DMCA, but I believe that a device becomes a circumvention device when it's sole intended purpose is to circumvent DRM schemes. Now, I know that the mod chip lets us do cool things that we have the right to do on our Xboxes, but the mod chip was made for pirates.
There are too many people today, whose first question when they get internet access is "So how do I get stuff for free?"
A cease and desist order must have been sent like always...
First of all, why are we no longer allowed by law to play with, change, and generally learn from things we OWN??? And why aren't we allowed to share what we have learned with people who have the same interest?
Yes, mod chips, whether for the PSX or Xbox, are used to play illegal copies of games. Hell, most people probably buy them for that very reason. Yes, Napster and other P2P software/services provide a way for people to illegally obtain and distribute music. Most people probably use them for this too.
At the same time, both also provide a means of using the platform legally. Mod chips allow people to develop software for the console. P2P can be and is often used to distribute with the consent of the copyright holder. Must one except to only use "official" software and accessories in order to buy a gaming console? Is this clause in writing anywhere? Although I really have no idea, I think not!
Just like the above technologies, guns are often used to commit crimes. They are also used legally to hunt and for target shooting. Guns are still and will always be legal even though they are often used to END life. Have you ever heard about a modchip or P2P being used to kill someone?
My point is, each of these are nothing more than tools, and people choose how they are used. In the case of a gun, the consequence of illegal use can be much worst. Yet we still have guns because they are not always used to commit crimes. Why isn't technology viewed the same way?
Cash cows with money to burn legally threaten poor chumps over and over just only to end up fighting a baseless case when it goes to court. The chump caves much of the time in order to avoid the cost of a legal fight!
.
Landfill Mining Co.
Managing the (Un)natural Resources of Tomorrow
MS have never said Xbox would be "integrable" with "other stuff". They never pushed the fact that it was based on standard PC parts. They always pushed it as a killer game console, nothing else.
There will never be a "commercial OS" to run on the Xbox, if MS have anything to do with it. Repeat after me: It's a game console, not a PC.
The online service has not been opened yet, but even so you can still play half a dozen games, including Halo, Tony Hawk (2X & 3) and Nascar Heat, over the net. Not quite "no inter-web games available", whatever that means. When Xbox Live opens in a few weeks, there will be dozens of net-based games, as promised.
And clearly you haven't looked at what uses the hard drive HAS been getting. First off, virtually infinite save games. Second, rip your music & play it from there without the CD, or play it instead of a game's supplied soundtrack (this is really nice). Third, caching game data really does speed up game load times, especially during the game itself. Fourth, it allows you to add content to a game, as DOA3 did with their recent bonus add-on disc.
Fifth, and most important, games are starting to use the hard disk for LARGE amounts of persistent data. Morrowind is a current example of a huge, really detailed world that is simply not possible without the HD. Project Ego is an even more ambitious RPG that preserves & evolves every last detail of the world - forget doing that on a memory save card!
And of course they're pissed off at modders. They will oppose anything that gives people a reason to buy the Xbox (which they take a loss on) and not buy games from it, at least until they can break even on the sale of the box. They will (of course) also oppose anything that might promote or allow piracy of games, to protect their publisher partners.
They haven't "given us a bunch of resources", they're selling a game console, just like Sony et al. And just as with the other consoles, people are seeing the Xbox as a challenge - one with more promise than PS2, DC etc, since it has a built-in HD & ethernet, a faster CPU, more RAM, better gfx & sound and it's a largely familiar architecture.
You're complaining that the Xbox is "useless" because of its lack of non-gaming support, yet you claim MS doesn't belong in the gaming industry? Make up your mind.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Maybe this is how this should be approached in the future. We are guaranteed the right to pursuit of happiness. If money is what makes Bill Gates and company happy, we can't stop them from pursuing that, but then he can't stop us from giving away our work.
OK, maybe in some way these guys broke a licensing agreement, I don't know, there isn't enough data here. But if we really crack down and start working, we can put anything else the MS touches to shame.
We have to start a good grassroots movement here. We are at a disadvantage as geek types do not tend to be politically active, but the big guys are using the laws against us and we will have to start fighting there or we will all be assimilated soon.
It needs to be determined what is wrong (software patents, DMCA, EULAs, what else?) and then we must let our lawmakers know that we will campaign against them in their next election if the laws aren't changed. Then we have to keep the promise!!!
We have to start voting with our $$$s as well. Don't buy anything that incurs the MS tax. I don't care how good that XYZ pc is, if the MS tax is imposed DON'T BUY IT! We have to support companies that are friendly to Open Source/Free Software. That doesn't mean that we can't buy software, we have already let some companies go away or almost at least (LOKI, VistaSource, Corel, and others) that were attempting to make money in the Open Source world with commercial software).
It seems that our judical system doesn't have the guts that they did back when they took on the likes of Standard Oil, Dupont, etc. in the Trust Buster days. Therefore we have to do it. We have to sell our friends and family on the good of Linux, not the bad of MS, and we have to do it quickly.
I have no sig, does anyone have one to spare?
You could build your own opensource box, sure. People do it every day, it's called a PC. But PCs aren't being subsidised to the tune of $150. You just can't build a better "piece of junk" for that $199.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
If you don't like their licensing terms, don't buy their product.
Try telling that to the power company. Microsoft is a monopoly.
CBDTPA (or whatever else comes out of those smoke-filled rooms in Hollywood) will require all computers to come with a digital rights management operating system. Microsoft has a patent on digital rights management operating systems. Therefore, Microsoft Palladium will be the only legal operating system for the next 20 years, and I'd bet money that when that term expires, Microsoft will lobby hard for a Cherilyn LaPierre Patent Term Extension Act.
Will I retire or break 10K?
There's an old story...a little girl finds a rattler shivering out on a cold rock. "Help me" it feebly croaks.
The little girl was a naive but nice one, and she knelt down to ask how she could help.
"Let me nestle in the warmth of your jacket...I'm cold." it whispered pitifully.
She obliged, and when she did, the snake bit her, sinking its fangs deep into her side. She instantly began to feel faint. She fell down, her head swimming as the poison spread in her body.
"Why? Why did you do this to me?" she said with her dying breath.
The rattler laughed. "You knew what I was when you picked me up." It laughed some more and slithered away.
End of story time.
Anyone who looks at X-Box with an eye towards modding or indie development or MAME or even "backups" (nudge nudge, wink wink) is kidding themselves. Microsoft put tons and tons of barriers to cracking in the X-Box, but did they realistically think that they would go unmolested? Nah. So they have their plan "B" and are using it.
Even Sega, who got out of the Dreamcast business a year ago, is still going after DC hackers. Remember what happened with the Lik-Sang programmer cable fiasco? And why was the Broadband Adapter pulled so quickly after it was released? And they are least harsh of all the console manufacturers.
Sony are bastards and so are Nintendo, but MS has made its bones by being the roughest, toughest, baddest-ass on the block. Yeah, they got medieval on the asses of people who wrote an emulator for X-Box. Did you expect anything else from them? Yeesh.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
AOL wouldn't exist (nuff said).
AOL did not start out on the Microsoft Windows platform. It was on Apple II and Macintosh computers years before the first WinAOL bisk was ever mailed.
Will I retire or break 10K?
They could lose money on game sales, directly or indirectly, if a sizeable group of people buy X Boxes and play only MAME games.
No, you won't. You can go out and buy a satellite receiver by itself.
If you're paying for the satellite service.. then, uhm, guess what? You're paying for a service. The X-Box is not a service, nor is Microsoft licensing it to you. You can do whatever you want to it, although pirating actual games is illegal.
My Journal - 1,337 fans and countin
IE
It only costs the price of the modem and a broadband access to play online (a one time purchase).
Broadband is not a one-time purchase but rather a recurring monthly expense. DSL or cable would cost $200 per month for me, because the service contracts run for at least a year, and I'm only home three months out of the year. (I'm at school for the other nine months, and they've restricted all gaming and P2P ports to 14.4.) Some of my friends don't even live in an area where cable or DSL is available; your "one-time purchase" would cost upwards of $200,000 to move house. Most gamers would not be willing to pay that much, and this is why most online games (including Q3A engine games) still support dial-up connections, to reach the largest possible market.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Would some AC be so kind as to post XBox MAME to Freenet and post the key here anonymously?
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
I don't picture myself ever being immersed in more than one MMORPG at a time
Perhaps you can only handle one game, and that's an MMORPG. But I do see many players being immersed in one MMORPG, one or two FPS games, a couple RTS games, and possibly even some non-top-three-genre games.
Will I retire or break 10K?
But you can't accept that can you? Guns don't kill people, people kill people right?
Damn straight!
"Nintendo expected to ship a total of 2.5 million GameCubes by 2001, says George Harrison, senior vice president of marketing and corporate communications at Nintendo of America. The total could reach 4 million GameCubes worldwide by the end of March, if the company reaches its stated goal... the GameCube, which costs less to manufacture and will sell for $199, will "lose a small amount for the first year," concedes Nintendo's Harrison."
- eb-asia
has it been a year yet? also, they beat their estimates, and hit 4 mil by the end of 2001.
"Because we have shipped more than four million GameCubes worldwide we have been able to bring down the cost of production and have a price cut before launch [in Europe]." - bbc
There's really no way to tell for _sure_ if they are losing money on the consoles or not... It can't be much if they are, and even if they are, company profits are going up, so their business plan is working.
Once I own an X Box I should be able to do whatever the hell I want to do woth it..including installing whatever software and hardware I please....
why can't I do what I want with it?
Because it's illegal to rent PC video games in the United States (17 USC 109(b)) without the copyright holder's permission, and do you think Joe's Video Rental will have the time and money to negotiate contracts with all major PC entertainment software publishers?
Because you can't rent PC games, it becomes much harder to try them before you buy them because many of the demos distributed over the Internet are either 200 megabytes (bad for users in areas that can't receive broadband) or non-interactive FMVs.
Will I retire or break 10K?
No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders (Score:-1, Fucking Obvious)
Really, you don't think they put all that effort into locking down the X-box just so people could try to crack it, do you?
... well, let's just be polite and say that you
should not feed the Beast.
Prove there is a difference btw crackheads and gamerz buy not buying or using the Xbox.
Use the SDK to build gcc.
In practice, a cross-compiling port of the GNU Compiler Collection also requires a port of GNU Binutils, which is strictly not part of the GCC project, but is almost always distributed alongside GCC. Binutils contains the assembler and the linker. The Xbox SDK's linker signs the code with Microsoft's private key, and parties to whom the Xbox SDK is disclosed are contractually restricted from disclosing Microsoft's private key. The unmodded Xbox will not run unsigned software. Therefore, how will you make a linker whose output the Xbox will accept?
Will I retire or break 10K?
A dollar a gallon for premium???
This is what I immediately thought, but the confusion comes from the fact that "premium" appears in both the phrases "pay a premium" (pay more than one would normally pay) and "premium petrol" (petrol with more than 90 percent octane). Grandparent was referring to the former sense, such that if 93% octane petrol normally cost US$1.50 per gallon, Microsoft Gasoline would cost US$2.50 per gallon, a $1.00 premium over the other brands.
And with the combination of the CBDTPA mandating DRM and Microsoft's patent on DRM, Microsoft may be able to pull it off with the force of U.S. law.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Of course, every one of us would also be experiencing crashes and blue screens of death every day. And then there would be the internet email worms that would cause the million car pile-ups.
Computers have become faster and better. Software, for the most part, has just gotten bigger and more complicated.
My other first post is car post.
YOU can mod the XBOX you bought all you want. Rip the guts out and put them in a PC case. Put the guts into a child's training toilet if you so desire. Plug anything you want into the the ports if you like. Whack like hell with a soldering iron!
What you can NOT do is make mods that violate Microsoft's IP available to others. Not for sale. Not for free. Not at all.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
I'm not sure, but don't all the mod chips require a hacked Microsoft BIOS ? That might make selling them quite illegal. Except for openxbox.de, who are basically selling an empty mod chip that you can flash over the parallel port, IIRC.
About boycotting, the thought of letting Microsoft spend time and money to establish this nice fixed-spec PC all over the world and then releasing a Linux distribution for it, that would be just beautiful...
Someone is wrong on the Internet!
I disagree, as well as does the company that makes mod chips. It isn't made for pirates. It was made to see if you could do it, and to make money (which is exactly why microsoft is in it), as well as for development...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Show me where the TV-Input is on a XBOX console please.
Try a TV input box connected to one of the USB-like controller jacks.
Besides, the Microsoft announcement was for the XBOX 2 console, not the current console.
Will I retire or break 10K?
However, they could add a field in all .DOC files containing a small piece of MS IP, such as a BMP of the Word logo or something, in future versions of the .DOC format.
This is exactly how the Nintendo Game Boy and Game Boy Advance "protection" schemes work, by including a small bitmap of the Nintendo logo in the header. But Nintendo can't enforce it in the United States because of the Sega v. Accolade precedent. In addition, the DMCA's circumvention ban makes an explicit exemption for reverse engineering aimed at interoperability 17 USC 1201(f).
Note that the Supremes are more fair than U.S. district courts.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I've had lots of fun writing stuff for the GBA, but I'm ready for a more powerful platform now. I'm looking forward to writing a hobbyist game for the XBox.
Don't try developing for the Xbox. Develop for the Lbox instead. An Lbox is a standard PCI-bus PC with an NVIDIA GeForce video card installed, running Linux, X11, SDL, and OpenGL. You'll find the Lbox SDK at many fine software stores, under the name "Red Hat Linux 7.3".
Developing for the Lbox will be 100% legal unless and until the U.S. Congress passes the CBDTPA.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I don't understand how your nation can survive with a legal system like yours. In Australia, if somebody brings about a fesciscious court action against you, or threatens to, and is later demonstrated to have been a dickhead, then the judge will award all costs - that is yours as well as theirs - against that party. The last time a company made a stupid legal threat against me, I told them to go fuck themselves, and they did.
Not EULA, but Microsoft's property. Apparently binaries compiled with the XDK end up with some part of them still copyrighted by Microsoft, so they clearly have a case here.
If I recall, the original author of glide underground created some sort of a 'glide wrapper'...I can't remember too much as this was way back in 3dfx days.
But the point that stuck to me, is the same point you mention. 3dfx complained(with a cease and desist...if my memory is correct) to the author that the glide wrapper was created using 3dfx's proprietary SDK(using its headers and what not).
I'm still hazy on the details, but the glide wrapper author stopped development for a while. I don't want to say more, otherwise I'd be pulling arguments out of my ass. But I'll say this much, when people did reverse-engineer the API(nm'ed the glide DLLs), 3dfx couldn't say nothing. I guess the same would be for M$.
The whole point of this post is to show you that a similar incident regarding proprietary sdks already happened in the past. People learned, and moved on.
Gee, looks like the Chinese have believed it for a couple of thousand years!
Nothing new under the sun etc...
Sounds to me very ironic that the nasty Commie Chinese have a better grasp of the Internet world than The Land of the Free. They're just getting on with the world's fastest economic growth rate while the US is obsessed with making information private property. Yet another reason the USA is past its peak...
Fuck you man... my main concern isn't in pirating games but I would like to play multi-region DVDs and would like to use nifty custom software people will produce for the Xbox if companies like Enigmah are not shut down.
Of course some people will pirate games... but I seriously doubt this hurts console sales. If anything it gives the average person a reason to BUY it in the first place. The people that pirate games are usually the ones that defend/support that console until the end of its lifespan.
Paying retail price for a GOOD game is worth the money.. but I would NEVER pay full retail for a shithouse game because it would be only worth playing if it was FREE/much cheaper.
I would however pay for a game and an online service (such as Everquest) without question becasue the money I'm spending is worth it.
How many computer games are actually worth their retail price? Only a few I can think of. The rest are pirated because people feel cheated spending their hard earned money on crap titles.
Can you name me an excellent software title that LOST money due to piracy? I doubt it.
// The fastest Alt-Tab in the West
and let's not forget that as with DVD region coding this is something that affects users outside the US much more than those within it. Region coding is nothing more than a restrictive trade practice; indeed I'd say it's a form of corporate neo-colonialism, setting up tightly controlled monopoly distribution channels to different parts of the world.
You want to use the cheapest and largest range of digital media in the world? You have to have region coding disabled so you can get the US stuff.
One mod chip, please.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
Fuck you you cocksucking motherfucker. Blow me. And suck my dick.
I don't get it. M$ is telling people that people can't modify something that they own? Christ, that would be the same logic as Chevrolet telling me that I can't put a new engine in my car or Dell telling me I can't put any aftermarket software or hardware on my system.
:)
I say to hell with them anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the x-box is a crappy knockoff of the real consoles.
Long live the Atari 2600!
My good sig is in the laundry
Would it be possible to make a program for the X-Box that could temporarily rewrite the laws inside the X-Box that decide what it can or cannot execute? Then you could burn this to CD, insert it and when it's done you take it out and run another CD with say... Linux!
Software is easier to distribute and use/install then modchips.
Don't fall for the BS. When you buy an X-Box you have BOUGHT one. When you buy HALO you also BOUGHT a copy of Halo, you did NOT license it. If there isn't a signed contract it is a SALE.
This of course does not mean you can do anything you please with that copy of Halo. Your use is governed by the copyright laws in your location. But the publisher cannot impose any additional terms and conditions on your use of the copy so long as you don't expect them to PROVIDE anything above and beyond supplying you with a working copy. I.E. support, upgrades, etc.
Democrat delenda est
Gas 'em. Gas 'em good.
Signing is only required when Xbox software is to run on the retail console. The compiler supplied with the Xbox SDK can't and doesn't "sign" code. Accordingly executables produced by the compiler will only run on XBox devkits and/or retial consoles with mod chips fitted.
The signing tool is not distributed to licensed software authors/publishers only microsoft have it.
The problem with your proposal of removing all ms copyrighted code after linking is that you'd need that a raw copy of all that removed code somewhere, (offically licensed software can't be the source as all currently released titles use a older version of the SDK/compiler). Also the said compiler is relatively smart in what it links/compiles for example orphan code isn't compiled in thus your model stub would need to require all the same libs and actually use all the same functions.
Developing a alternate compiler wouldn't help here as you'd still need the microsoft supplied libaries.
The whole XBox SDK package (libs, tools, docs) is covered by a PAPER contract signed by yourself or your employeer (if the SDK is licensed to your employeer you can still be displined by said employeer for producing home brew software using it), which has specific clauses stating you can not externally distribute (give to people who arn't your employees or who you don't have a business relationship with) binary copies "produced" using the supplied package. Produced is a interesting term as theortically it covers the documentation too, so even if you had a clean room compiler and libs you'd need clean room docs too.
Before there are any cries of MS are evil these terms are pretty well boilerplate for the console industry.
I hope MS lose 20 Billion dollars on Xbox/Xbox2/Xbox3.
I hope I can punch Billy on the face someday.
If a Xbox with a modchip runs the program, I'll call it a success.
What if Microsoft cracks down hard on Xbox modchip makers and gets USA Government to crack down on countries that don't comply with WIPO, as it has been doing lately? What if an Xbox with a modchip is no longer available, except on eBay for $3,000? Then it becomes pointless to port an app to a $3,000 modded Xbox when the Lbox is available from Wal*Mart for $500.
Fuck USA Government. Fuck PoizonBOx.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Well after reading this artical I scrambled to buy myself a mod chip. The modchip companies are getting free advertising because of this to sell whatever they still have in stock.
Have USB interfaces IIRC, so you can put your favourite tool in the appropriate orifice and play to your hearts content!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Build a true open source project? Like what, Indrema? Or the TuxBox? You're kidding me, right?
The market for XBox software is not a physical thing.True, but you can't necesarily use the intellectual property contents of said piece of hardware. The tricky point is where you draw the line - does writing code that runs on an XBox require the use of MS intellectual property? This question could be resolved, as I suggested, by the creation of a legal safe harbour that protects the console market. If it's in the interests of the general public, then a law can reasonably be enacted. Those that want a general purpose computing device that they can run free games on can still buy a PC at commodity prices. By refusing MS the right to safely create a low cost of entry console, you're pissing in the pool. Everybody loses, because consoles become too expensive to be a practical business model.
You can do what you like with your own XBox, but when you start distributing that stuff, you're entering murky waters. The MAME case is simple, they're distributing MS property (the linked development library code) and so are SOL. In terms of mod chips, and free software that doesn't use MS libraries, then that's a little different, but see my other comment.
Tremble in awe of my low /.id!
You can do what you like with your own XBox
In your parent comment you make the case that people shouldn't be allowed to hack their consoles... Which is it?
I was referring to distributing stuff to others. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Keep in mind that this article took place before they dropped the price to $149. If they were losing a small amount at $199, they're probably losing more now. Profits are going up because they are Nintendo, not some American company with no experience in the console industry. You've got to give MS time before you critique them.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I'm not critiquing them, I just think Nintendo is not losing much (if any) money on their console sales. They have never really been subscribers to the loss leader strategy.
However, as far as the Xbox goes, I can't see it being a success. The games aren't there and they don't seem to be coming.
I might pick it up for MAME and a few of the exclusive Sega games, but these are somewhat obscure and really only appeal to Sega devotees - the support of whom wasn't enough to save the Dreamcast.
Placed between Sony and Nintendo, I don't see room in the marketplace for the Xbox. If I was them, I'd have tried to buy Sega. Having exclusive Visual Concepts games and Sonic games would have been a bigger feather in their cap than Bungie.
This being a primarily US forum, I was referring to US copyright.
US law is based on British common law, and in it's origins was almost a direct transplant. Discussing the basis of US law while ignoring those roots is like discussing the history of the automobile while denying the existence of the horse and cart.
The market for XBox software is not a physical thing.
But we aren't talking about XBox software here, are we? We're talking about the XBox itself, which is physical, and what I can do with it once I've purchased it. What software Microsoft chooses to make available to me above and beyond the purchase of that hardware is totally irrelevant.
True, but you can't necesarily use the intellectual property contents of said piece of hardware.
Yes I absolutely can. The only restriction is that I can't sell a product based on any of that IP that is patented, and that is the only restriction placed upon me with regards to hardware which I have purchased.
I can make all the go-carts I want using Honda 2-cycle engines from motorcycles and lawnmowers. I can modify those engines however I want to increase power, efficiency, cooling, you name it. That is my right as the purchaser of a piece of hardware. The only thing I can't do is build and sell a clone of the V-Twin engine, because Honda owns the patent on that technology.
Similarly, I can reprogram my XBox to control my sprinkler system if I want to, or I can port Linux to it, or I can write my own games for it. The only thing MS can do to stop me is hide the APIs to make it more difficult for me to do that.
The tricky point is where you draw the line - does writing code that runs on an XBox require the use of MS intellectual property?
The line is already drawn. The only point at which MS can control this is through the licensing on the XBox Developers Kit. They can't prevent the source code from being distributed, they can only prevent the distribution of binaries produced using the XDK, and then only because those binaries include code copyrighted by MS. If someone produced a binary that didn't rely on any of their code, there wouldn't be a goddamn thing they could do about it. They know that, and they are relying on the fact that it will require a non-MS XDK to be written from scratch, which will be difficult and time consuming.
This question could be resolved, as I suggested, by the creation of a legal safe harbour that protects the console market. If it's in the interests of the general public, then a law can reasonably be enacted.
I don't think you have adequately thought through the consequences of such a law. It is absolutely not in the interest of the general public. What you are proposing is the equivalent of requiring all automobile service to be done using factory parts by dealer mechanics, and making all options, such as upgraded stereo, sporty graffics, spoilers, tinted windows, etc., mandatory at the time of purchase. How would that benefit the consumer? And if it doesn't benefit the consumer, how can you possibly argue that it is in the interest of the general public?
By refusing MS the right to safely create a low cost of entry console, you're pissing in the pool. Everybody loses, because consoles become too expensive to be a practical business model.
Bullshit. No one is refusing MS the right to safely create a low cost console, they've failed to do that all by themselves. You are suggesting that their piss-poor design and planning should be subsidized by law, and I am calling that the stupidest idea I've heard in a really long time.
Sony and Nintendo have both produced consoles which they can sell for less at a profit, and which are more compelling offers in terms of what's available on those platforms. If MS, or any other company, wants to offer a product that costs more, there needs to be a compelling reason for people to pay that price.
Intel has historically been a prime example of this concept. Historically, you could buy an Intel CPU or you could by a CPU from one of the various clone manufacturers; lets say Cyrix, just for an example. You could buy a Cyrix processor and it would run all your software, or you could buy an Intel and it would run all your software better, faster, and more stable. The Cyrix costs a lot less, but the Intel offers a compelling advantage for the increased price. That's why Intel has been on top of the CPU market, despite being more expensive than others offering the same basic functionality.
MS has failed to offer compelling functionality for the increased cost, and for that reason they now must sell the hardware at a loss and hope to regain that loss on software royalties when people buy games for it.
Halo is the only reason I would consider buying an XBox. I am perfectly within my rights to buy an XBox solely for the purpose of playing Halo and never purchasing another game ever again. MS loses money on me and it's their own damn fault.
Under the current situation, it is on MS and their developers to offer me additional software that I want in order for them to make a profit. Under the law you suggest I would be forced to buy additional software, even though it sucks (and it would suck, since there is no compelling reason for MS to produce anything compelling under that scenario).
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Digital Millenium Copyright Act
The system has security systems built in, such as a CSS DVD player. The mod chip can be considered a circumvention device which is banned by the law.
That's how Sony was able to fight, too.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Stallman, stop posting as an AC, how many times have I told you, no flaming until after midnight!
And i refuse to follow it in *MY* home.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
XBox software has three regions (US, Japan, Rest of world IIRC), although MS are apprently encouraging developers *not* to region-protect their games.
Yeah, that's not a huge premium for Microsoft Quality.