Slashdot Mirror
Intel to Build DRM into Next-Generation CPUs
mdecerbo writes "The Boston Globe is reporting
that next year's Intel processors will include
hardware support for Microsoft's "Palladium"
DRM system. There are chilling privacy implications. AMD, here I come."
Let's all just keep our current computers.
AMD has already agreed to support paladium.
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
I mean if you do not plan to run Palladium, where's the problem? This would not stop you from doing anything you do now. Doesn't the OS have to support DRM also in order for this to have any effect?
It's unfortunate, but /.s favorite CPU maker is already on the TCPA bandwagon.
--
E_NOSIG
Look folks - if you are reading Slashdot, then the odds are REALLY good that you run an alternate OS like Linux. Did you note it's a MS DRM technology??? That means poor folks running MS code will be subject to it - not people intelligently choosing to run Linux, etc. ;-)
MS users - have a nice day - if you can!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
The vast majority of people (read; the EULA oblivious) will not adopt it anyway and;
Microsoft will not make it impossible to talk to untrusted machines.
I won't draw any conclusions from this and I won't talk about how the world is going to hell in a digital handbasket, but it's food for thought.
My
Limekiller
or does anyone remember that far back? the pentium III processor architecture was going to allow a special hardware code to be embedded on each processor, unique to each machine so that web transactions would be safer.
however, due to the public backlash about having "big brother" track what their computers were doing, they allowed users to disable that hardware code from being detected.
the hardcoded serial on those pentium III were just a precursor to palladium, however. think of it more of a proof of concept that such a device would work. intel was always heading toward palladium.
The system has a personal information sharing agent called "My Man."
If they want hacker followers they should call the personal information sharing agent "My Women"
This is the most comprehensive read on Palladium available. Forward it to family and friends.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
I use AMD processors anyways. (And yes, I did see somebody's post above that said AMD has agreed to support Pallidium already, I just hope they are smart and change their minds)
But this does raise an interesting question: Does Windows XP already have these types of systems in it, and the processor support will make it come to life?
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
if the performance issues werent a problem in your mind, and you love paying more, then stick with intel.=)
"Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
Perhaps VIA is smart enough to start pumping out "free" CPUs.
Intel and Microsoft, between Windows Media Center and the forthcoming Palladium might as well just tack on "if you don't want all this crap, please see www.apple.com" at the end of each ad.
While i've been telling my Windows colleagues that this was coming - none of them believed.
And now - bonus - XP.5 and Intel both, in the same week - prove me right.
God.. its good to buy from the "most dangerous company to Intellectual Property today"
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
...because if all the tin-foil hats that this story will draw were in one physical place, it would draw a lightning strike so huge that it would wipe everyone out in one fell swoop.
I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to what percentage of Slashdot readership would be left.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
According to the link in my sig, Intel has a knack for attempting product 'innovations' that aren't very consumer-friendly. My what short memories people have - this is what the Intel CPUID debacle was all about. Now they're going after it again, only under a more righteous-sounding moniker: "Palladium". It sounds like a place you'd go on Friday nights to have fun, but I suspect that fun is the last thing that will come of this mess.
What if AMD starts putting in DRM too?
:-(
I guess we'll have to move over to the Mac...
Then if the Mac adapts it...
We'll have to go outside!
----------
Check out my blackbox styles
Did you guys forget the rumors that Microsoft's support of X86-64 was due to AMD standing behind them?
If Intel is doing this, AMD will be right behind them. They'll do anything to preserve their relationship with Microsoft.
Don't get me wrong, I love AMD, but they're just as corporate as the rest of the semiconductor industry.
AMD, here I come
I don't think you'll find much comfort in AMD. They are in that DRM working group with MS & Intel. They are also much more eagar to suck up to MS. Their ex-CEO Jerry Whatever said something like: "Wake up, MS has won. I ain't supporting Linux.." in that interview a couple of months ago (it was posted here). I think more appropriate response is: VIA/Apple here I come!
Mod this up. If we don't buy it, it won't sell.
I had thought that this "feature" was able to be disabled in the BIOS. If that were the case, the rest of this problem is a software crack and then DRM isn't an issue. Am I wrong about the simplicity of this?
Remember what happened with the cpuID thing?
I plan on sending out 2 emails, one to Intel and one to AMD. They will state that I will buy whichever processor has the same support to turn this OFF in the bios that the cpuID had and if neither of them do this, I will move to only Mac's.
Now, I don't usually get all email-y/petition-y about this kind of thing, but it's worked before. We're the consumers here. Let's tell the manufacturers what -we- want.
Any responses I get will be posted on the web for all to read.
--
Mike
-- Mike wildcard@illuminatus.org
How can a company that can't keep a little 13 year old from cause havic on systems even fathom that they can develope the ultimate security system? Regardless if it is software or hardware based, It is not a possibility.
No, but the government is allowing a known monopolist to force other companies into restricting our rights, or more accurately trying to force consumers into less control of products they've rightfully purchased (not even licensed in this case either)
Time to cast your vote, you'll find your ballot in your wallet: it's the little slip of paper with the " $ " symbol and the picture of a dead president (or prime minister if u are in canada ;)
In this case, the masses are stupid enough to accept DRM-enabled machines for the tradeoff that they get to view some neat-o movie clips on their computer. The masses have some culpability in this, but one could argue that this is one place where the government should step in and prevent a few companies from greatly changing the landscape of information exchange in a way that only benefits a few.
Damn, how you never cease to amaze me, Knox. =)
Just because we're not required to use it doesn't mean it won't do anything. When Microsoft controls 95% of the desktop market, and they're regulating those desktops, that gives them a lot of power. And they've proven that they'll stoop low to push out competition.
I won't go any further than that, it would be speculation, but don't tell me that because we're not forced into buying it that it doesn't affect us.
That also doesn't take into account the wonderful people in Congress who are looking at the TCPA as law.
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
WTF are you smoking?
Microsoft made a new technology, DRM. Illegal? Nope, they can develop practically anything.
They introduce it to chip makers, not 'forcing them to use it'. Illegal? Nope, they can say anything non-threatening to chip makers.
Chip makers, not wanting to lose to the other chip makers decide to adopt the new technology. Illegal? Nope.
Now what can the government do?
NOTHING
I'm afraid it's going to stop innovation (or the use of new, innovative products).
i was planning on making the switch anyway. now i have even more incentive.
Moving to AMD ( or other ) is just a short term thing.. eventually all our legal hardware will require the damned stuff.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Thank you for the link, it spelled things out in clear terms.
At least they gave us notice of their intent... gives me time to un-install XP and run Linux solely. And time to save up for that new Mac I'll be buying come Christmas. :)
as long as you let Intel know what you think, i think everything will turn out ok. remember: their #1 concern is making money, so if enough people are made aware of the crap they're trying to pull, things should turn out ok.
and if not, I forsee high-end Athlon XPs and/or P4's in my future until i see a decent alternative.
one question i do have is: what impact will Palladium have on non-windows users?
So, Intel includes digital rights management in their chips. And Microsoft includes it in the OS. What's the big deal? Where do you get most of your MP3s from, anyway? Your DIvX movies? Your pr0n? I'm sure you don't purchase it. Pirated stuff is always going to be DRM-free.
Don't worry about it. All DRM is defeatable, and it's MUCH better than the alternative (unrippable CDs, anyone?)
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
This is not a big deal. The only people who have to fear this are those who are doing illegal activities. Are you all succumbing to your own brand of FUD? Don't inject "info" into the documents, and don't let your personal "beliefs" cloud truth.
AMD == DRM. You'll find no comfort there.
;)
On the plus side of this, I can now drop my moral objections to Intel processors and buy chips that won't fry my hand if I touch them after a hard day of computing. AMD is now no better than Intel, it would seem.
But, on the topic of DRM, who cares? I somehow doubt Linus will suddenly insist DRM be supported in the kernel. If he does, I'd dare the fact that he isn't actually Linus, but some replicant from Redmond, Washington.
So, who cares? Linux suits my needs now. Win 98 supports my needs, and if I'm still addicted to/if EverCrack is still around by the time MS drops support for Win 98, well, I can move up to Win 2k.
By the time Win 2k goes down the hole, I'd imagine I won't be too enthusiastic about EverCrack anymore.
Now, about the paranoia that everyone must use DRM or be locked up. These people are obviously wearing tinfoil hats. These are corporations pushing DRM, not governments, as a previous poster pointed out.
However, we should heed their warnings about DRM and the fact that Bill Gates is an alien.
You heard me. Why?
Look at the Microsoft Anti-Trust trial. They were convicted of being a monopoly. They still haven't been punished.
Think Microsoft can't buy laws requiring DRM?
Think again.
Even if they do, we'd still be able to use old hardware, true. But we all know geeks, and we all know the virtual penis size that's measured in gigahertz and terabytes.
THE LINUX X-BOX PROJECT??
If I actually wanted DRM then I wouldn't have already pirated 200divx movies off of grokster... duh :P
Certainly there will be millions of "criminals", sorry "terrorists" created overnight.
I take it all you worried people are running Windows? Frankly I don't give a crap about this. Because is the DRM going to do anything at all under linux? Probably not. Atleast if MS's DRM efforts pay off, all the kiddies running windows to rip DVDs will be cut off. And the people that want to just play the DVDs will still be able to. Face it, this move is pointed directly at Joe User. He don't understand it, so he don't care. Oh well, I don't care either.
PS: I don't endorse Intel, nor Microsofts DRM bs, I'm just voicing my worthless opinion..
Can all fish swim?
I don't know what all the fuss is about. Microsoft and Intel are obviously just responding to the demands of their customers. Joe Public has been crying out for these DRM features for ages.
Many people on Slashdot just don't seem to understand how having completely free markets in the USA leads to companies supplying the best possible products for their customers. This is just an example of that.
(Yes, this is sarcasm).
The Register has a report about this w/ some good insights:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/27047.html
Suffice to say, all of this is going to blow.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Why not?
StrongARM is really cheap and very energy efficient.
Why should you care about it being energy efficient? How about because a 48-way SMP machine would be a real possibility.
By the time Palladium is a reall issue, you'll be able to buy a 48 processor StrongARM box, running Linux 2.8.X, KDE 5, GNOME 4, with a 500 GB HD, and 1 GB RAM, for a reasonable price.
Remeber what desktop Linux was like three years ago? Exactly. Look how much has been achieved in three years. In another three years, it'll be better.
I have struggled with MS vs Linux for quite some time now. Over the past several years I have set up various Linux boxes and used them initially, but I always found myself migrating back to the Windows box for simple and daily tasks. Tasks that would seem a lot easier and quicker on Windows vs the Linux boxes (only desktop/office/school tasks though, my OpenBSD box has a permanent place on my shelf as my designated household router/firewall). However, if Palladium interfaces caused enough of a problem with my fair use rights (and perhaps even some non-fair use) I would be forced to leave my Windows boxes and set up some Linux boxes for my permanent use. And I have a feeling that there are a lot of people out there that may be in a similar situation: they know about Linux, perhaps have checked it out a few times, and are just waiting for some sort of bomb shell to put them on the other side of the fence. If people suddenly could no longer play their music collection, or open up important documents, they might decide to take a dive into the alternative(s).
I almost forgot - so long Connectix. :-(...
No more Virtual PC - well, not any Virtual PC's which require Le Grange.
Unless they come up with some way to emulate a valid key that changes with each install.
I don't know - how is Connectix going to deal with this? Can they?
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
I don't suppose you're familiar with the V-chip and the fact that it's impossible to buy a new television without this asinine and needless expense? This was accomplished with a comparatively tiny V-chip lobby.
Now consider the fact that there will be a huge amount of money (i.e. the content providers) pushing legislation to make certain that ALL computers are sold with DRM. How long do you think that will take? I'm sure they'll be doing it 'for the children', too.
Would people *please* stop thinking of this hardware DRM business as originiating with Microsoft's Palladium. It didn't.
Everybody PLEASE read the TCPA/Palladium FAQ which was posted here on slashdot a while ago.
The initiative to develop harware based DRM in PC CPU's came from Intel, not Microsoft. Palladium is Microsoft's support for Intel's (or rather the TCPA's) DRM initiative, not the other way around.
That article was mostly speculation short on technical details but long on Micro$oft bashing.
Being a geek I got more mileage out of reading the technical details on palladium by a member of the EFF (Seth Schoen) who was at a presentation and TCPA and Palladium: Sony Inside an article on kuro5hin by a former Microserf.
Disclaimer:The opinions expressed in this post are mine and do not reflect the opinions, thoughts, strategies or plans of my employer.
It is rather uncomfortable to think about this with M$ in mind, but I would love to see this technology in the hands of open-source developers. Extract the good from the poison of DRM.
Those who stand in the way of progress, stand without pants!
Free speech is getting expensive...
Bob said it much better than I can.
You said it Bob. Thank you.
Macs Won't Boot Into Mac OS 9 in 2003
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
It's a crazy fun filled romp told through the eyes of a giant Software Company! Convicted of being a Software Monopoly, It shrugs off all naysayers and punishments and heads right into Hardware Monopoly! It controls the software AND the hardware!
"Hilarious!" - Gene Shallit
"A Fun Filled Romp!" - Siskel
"I Laughed, I Cried, I Wept Inside!" - Oprah
"I Dance Like A Monkey And Smell Like One Too!" - Steve Ballmer
"Who Is This Bill Gates, And Where Does He Get His Wonderful Toys?" - Satan
Yes! You too can be part of this laugh riot! Just Wait and Do Nothing. We are bringing it to you this Fall!
"Hello, Mr Friendly Computer Shop Assistant, tell me all about the new processors"
"Well, this new 1900 MHz processor is as fast as your old 1200 MHz processor for running your existing applications. It's going to be really useful in about 3 years, when everybody has finally finished optimising their compilers for it, but until then, it's pointless. Oh yeah, in 3 years, it'll be obsolete, so don't bother buying it."
"OK, thanks!"
Up until now, Palladium has been primarily vapor and hype, and primarily known among techno-savvy people like slashdot readers and privacy types.
Now that Intel has is planning to make it concrete and real, it will be interesting to see if the backlash is to the same level as it was for the CPU ID.
Broody is reporting that he won't be purchasing next year's Intel processors which include hardware support for "Palladum" nor installing M$ software supporting M$'s DRM system. Sadly since AMD seems to have sold out as well it seems likely 2003 will be year of the PPC for him baring sudden SPARC price drops.
On a more serious note, I doubt this will last into next year. It will be probably be one of those flash in the pan ideas that you can disable in the BIOS like PSN once the grumbling starts and the masses bust out the tinfoil hats. Of course, if they push it to track terrorists, all bets are off.
~~ What's stopping you?
I suppose they're making a decent effort at reporting on this in an even-handed way, but the Globe missed two important points.
I take back all the comments I made about the uselessness of hacking XBOXes. Please continue.
Say what you want about Redhat being the next Microsoft, but they always release their code. I don't see them going into this if there wasn't some non-DRM products coming from AMD.
--
Mike
-- Mike wildcard@illuminatus.org
Demonstrations included an experimental Pentium 4 chip that designers ratcheted up to 4.7 gigahertz, nearly twice as speedy as the fastest chip on the market, a 2.8 gigahertz chip.
For the math-impaired article authors,
twice(2.8) = 5.6
5.6/2.8=200%
4.7/2.8=168%
The 4.7 GHz was impressive enough by itself -- there was no need to inflate it again with bad math.
Not that GHz rating has any meaningful relationship to the speed of your boxen.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
As Microsoft becomes the gatekeeper of digital identity, I predict that Verisign is the next major company who boasted that their part of the market was safe from Microsoft to be crushed by Microsoft.
Ha, I bet they can't stop me from using my all powerfull 8MM Jack on a Palladium machine.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
this is exactly what all the anti-sssca folks want. the industry has made a desision as to what DRM sceam to use in the hardware. huray for not having the government force us to do anything.
True capitalism = lots of similar companies = jobs for everyone who wants one.
You're not kidding. I start reading stuff like this and I start wondering if its not too late to go analog and give up on computers and do something else.
I mean, once they hammer all the fun out of it by making it like cable TV what's the fucking point?
Not everyone in the world is enamored with DRM. China already distrusts Microsoft products enough to fully embrace linux as their OS of choice. Will the same thing happen to Intel products in China?
It doesn't seem like a very smart business decision to lock yourself out of the fastest-growing market in the world.
"This century is going to be the most awesome of all centuries to ... I get angry when I see it being less than it can be.
contemplate - there is a real question whether human kind will get
to the end of it... America's so big, so powerful, and so vain,
"The British have a love of their country that is profound. They
can revile it, tell dirty stories about it. But deep down their
patriotism is deep. In America we're playing musical chairs - don't
get caught without a flag or you're out of the game. Why do we
need all this reaffirmation? It's as if we're a three hundred pound
man who's seven feet tall, superbly shaped, absolutely powerful,
and every three minutes he's got to reaffirm the fact that his arm
pits have a wonderful odor. We don't need compulsive, self-serving
patriotism. It's odious...
"When you have a great country it's your duty to be critical of it
so it can become even greater...
"Culturally, emotionally America is growing more loutish, arrogant,
and vain.
"I detest this totally promiscuous patriotism. Wave a little flag
and become a good person? Ugly.
"If we have a depression or fall into desperate economic times,
I don't know what's going to hold the country together...
"There's just too much anger here, too much ruptured vanity, too
much shock, too much identity crisis. And worst of all, too much
patriotism. Patriotism in a country that's failing has a logical
tendency to turn fascistic...
"Let's suppose ten people are killed by a small bomb on a street
corner in some city in America. The first thing to understand is
that there are 280 million Americans. So, there's one chance in
28 million you're going to be one of those people. By such
heartless means of calculation, the 3000 deaths in the Twin Towers
came approximately to one mortality for every 90,000 Americans.
Your chances of dying if you drive a car are one in 7,000 each year.
We seem perfectly ready to put up with automobile statistics. I
fear I am ready to say there is a tolerable level to terror...
"One of the things I've always found least attractive about Tony
Blair was his toadyish attitude toward Clinton...
"Clinton made a point of surrounding himself with people who might
be 90% as intelligent as himself, but never his equal. Bush is
smart enough to know that he couldn't possibly do the same, or the
country would be run by morons."
I know Microsoft isn't going to be developing the hardware for this, but they are going to act as the "gatekeeper" for our personal information. I don't know how I would feel about a company who's Executive claimed that their "products aren't engineered for security" /. article.
Just because something is old doesn't mean it is obsolete. I still run a 200MHz Pentium MMX at home and a 400MHz PentiumII at work. They run things fine _without_ any Palladium hooks. Unless everyone in the world is forced to upgrade their CPUs to run the new Palladium based stuff, I don't see it as a big deal even if you must run MS stuff. In that case, you don't have to upgrade. No one can force you to do anything. You agree to it.
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???
Granted, I think the way Microsoft(tm) is going to implement this, it'll be generally bad for users of their products. But how much do we really now about what hardware Intel is going to add to their chips? It's quite possible that Linux users will be able to leverage this technology to improve the security of our servers in ways which actually benefit the users.
From what I can tell, the overall thrust of this technology is to allow Microsoft(tm) to prevent a user from doing anything to patch or change certain behaviors of the OS. Basically, it's purpose is to prevent people with physical access from "rooting" the box. If we could leverage that tech to prevent a server at a co-lo from being trojaned, wouldn't that be a good thing? Perhaps there will be whole classes of expliots which will become impossible, or at least controllable? It's hard to say without knowing more. But I don't think we should automatically write off the technology just because some vendors plan on using it to screw their customers.
Meaning, if it can't identify what file you're trying to access, it denies access.
Oh well, I guess I'm jumping on the Linux or Apple bandwagon.
There is an article at news.com about Intel's announcement. (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-957194.html) This article notes, "Otellini said users will be able to turn LaGrande off. "It will be opt in," he said." If this is true, we have noting to worry about.
Anyone care to explain?
That's right. It doesn't.
Trust me, it keeps me up at night, the though of not being able to run *nix on Intel or AMD chips... the future looks dim. Thankfully, Apple boxen are open and free to enjoy. For now.
The only way I see me getting a Palladium DRM CPU is if I was the master key controller of the device. Anything less seems to me to give up my control over my hardware to whoever does have the master key control and I won't stand for it. I'll dust of any older CPU and keep useing what I have total control over. Besides, is'nt there a law thay says unautohrized modifications to a computer system is illegal? I expressly revoke everybody; eg Microsoft and Intel; to make any changes to systems that I own.
zenray
Let those restricted programs run in a restricted environment - let them have their fun. I will enjoy redirecting the sound and video output away to a file.
-- Arik
Pity you got modded down, your satire about the topic article was very amusing. Too bad it was moderated down as off-topic even though it was about MS's DRM technology.
Oh well, I thought it was funny. So even though you took a needless karma bite, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing ya made somebody chuckle.
Cheers man.
Offtopic? Somebody get up on the wrong side of bed this morning?
It's a joke, son. Lighten up.
Or buy new computers and turn off Palladium. Or just ignore the Windows people and keep using Linux.
Palladium comes down to copy protection of *Windows* software and music in *Windows*, and can, in any event, be disabled.
Worst case Windows users can crack software to make it play even with Palladium turned off, which is pretty much what people already do to attack copy protection on software.
How does it affect us? Why should we care?
And answering "Because MS will make Windows not talk to Linux and isolate it", as some other poster did in these responses, is not good enough. MS has been trying to keep Windows from talking to Linux for a long time.
May we never see th
I mean if you do not plan to run Palladium, where's the problem? This would not stop you from doing anything you do now. Doesn't the OS have to support DRM also in order for this to have any effect?
In short, no.
Consider that if you ever need to pass data from DRM equipped computers to yours, you may need to have DRM installed in order to simply view it.
When everything from a word-processed document to e-mail is encrypted with DRM technologies, and only DRM equipped machines can unencrypt them, you have a *serious* problem.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Nope -- "opt in" means that it is turned off unless and until the user turns it on, and that it is impossible to turn it on through any means other than a conscious decision to that effect by the user.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Palladium has two sides. The DRM stuff, and the privacy and security stuff.
:-)
Palladium _will_ be broken. Unless they implement the whole of the operating system on hardware, palladium's software side will be hacked quite soon (remember the XBox). That means that by loading a patched version of Windows, all the checks that are done on the signatures will be disabled.
So you will be able to use a patched version of Windows to extract the drm protected media from its envelope and put it into a sensible format.
When you are done with that, you enable the checks again so your signed software runs in the sandbox and you can take advantage of the possible privacy and security advantages of that protection. Or even better, you use the Linux implementation of a palladium type sandbox (surely there will be one when the hardware from intel is available), using the Intel chips infrastructure. This will allow for a more secure Linux.
That will be enough until the hardware side of it is broken
When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
As peripherals become locked unless you have MS's DRM Linux or Apple becomes even less of an option. And by peripherals I mean every peripheral: CR-ROM/DVD, Floppy, monitor, video card, printer, the works. What hapens when you can't buy a printer or monitor that won't work with out MS's DRM. THey have the market dominance to make this happen. This is more dangerous than it first looks.
The system has a personal information sharing agent called "My Man."
- Nobody uses Windows Media or SDMI, MP3 is the only real digital music standard, and if iPod isn't the leading MP3 player it's close
- Nobody subscribes to pressplay or musicnet or other crippled services, while the filesharers still seem to share their happy days away
- Nobody outside the US worries one iota about DVD region coding, since region free players are readily available
And so on. We have not yet begun to see the anger from consumers who buy hardware that won't run winamp, or rip dvd's using readily available tools. If/when Microsoft and Intel/AMD are stupid enough to restrict their equipment this way, you'll see people vote with their feet.
And, by the way: S.2048 was laughed out of committee - it didn't even get a hearing. Not to say that it isn't still a threat - it is, and we must be vigilant - but the chances that our beloved Mac/Linux/*BSD/yes, even Win2K PCs will suddenly become all that will work with our media anymore are in fact very close to zero.
sulli
RTFJ.
Dude, if you think AMD isn't developing the same thing, you are sorely mistaken.
Everyone wants security, and any CPU that offers security features will immediately have a competitive advantage.
The battle between AMD and Intel is ferocious right now, why do you thing AMD is taking it in the shorts by manufacturing a 2MB Athlon core? This feature is a HUGE cost hit simply because they need to be competitive.
Think they will let a competitive security feature slide, not a chance!
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
But every single interest group out there will pressure Apple to conform. Do you really think that they would leave a major American manufacturer to be the hole in the wall? They are going to have enough problems with Taiwan/Asian manufacturers as it is.
And isn't Apple rumored to start using x86 chips soon?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Anyone have any thoughts about market consequences? (Am I being hopeful that chilled innovation would be even recognized?)
So you think that it's a bad idea if parents want to control some of the violence and sex that their children see on TV?
Fuck you.
You obviously don't know shit about what the V-Chip is. And you obviously know even less about what Palladium and DRM are.
Go back to hacking and stealing and shut the hell up.
That won't work forever. I have a 75 MHz pentium that's practically useless. It takes forever to do anything in Win95, and even Linux is unacceptably slow.
Back when that cpu was new, it seemed to run plenty fast enough.
I have a suspicion that the chipmakers design the chips such that over time, they progressively run slower and slower the more they have been used. I have an old Cyrix 486 chip that still seems pretty zippy today, but my old Intel classic pentiums and AMD K6 chips seem to have slowed considerably with age/use. I haven't run any benchmarks on them, but it would not surprise me if the chipmakers didn't deliberately put firmware into their chips to slowly make them self-destruct to purposefully make them obsolete sooner so as to sell new chips.
MS can generate license codes: I'm sure they can get Connectix the info needed to generate a set. (Which will probably run only on VPC emulation so you can't take that copy of XP and move it to a "real" PC.)
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
When I first heard about Palladium, Microsoft were talking about it being ready in 2005, and that would be the first version, aimed at corporate users, and 2007 was a more realistic target for home users.
Then, everybody starts talking about it a lot more, and the 2005 date is banded around a lot.
Now, we're getting the basis of it in Intel's processor's next year. You might think that it's in preparation for Longhorn in 2005, but realistically, do you think we are going to be using 2003 processors when Longhorn ships, (probably in 2006 at the earliest)? No, neither do I.
I think that Microsoft is trying to trying desperately to bring forward the introduction of Palladium, because it is about the only thing that stands to rescue them in the long term.
It's fine to say that Microsoft are dominant on the desktop at the moment. You can even argue that they have the best product, depending on your needs, (I don't consider their products to be anything other than complete trash, but that's my opinion), but seriously, even the most anti-Linux people I've met tend to say eventually that their main dislikes of Linux are:
1. Compatibility with Windows applications.
2. Eye candy.
Well, look how 2 has improved over the last 3 years. I don't think that lack of eye candy is going to be a real issue much longer.
Compatibility with Windows applications. Hmmm, which Windows applications? You mean, you can't run Office, I.E., and a handful of applications that you personally can't live without.
OK, well, in three years time, you'll have native Linux alternatives to Office and I.E., in the form of [Staroffice|Openoffice|Koffice|Abiword] and I.E. in the form of [Konqueror|Mozilla|Netscape|Dillo|Links2].
The handful of apps you can't live without, hmmm, if they are current applications, I think that there is about a 15% chance that a native Linux port will exist of them in three years, as Linux gains support. 15% isn't much, but for some people, it will be the final nail in the coffin for Windows.
Also, with Linux, you can choose architechture. Windows is tied to i386, and Microsoft know this - NT on other architechture is a non-starter. This backwards compatibility is expensive - very expensive, and it's not going to get cheaper. Linux on a StrongARM CPU, on the other hand, is cheap, fast, and very energy efficient, (think 15+ hour laptop battery lifetimes).
Ah yes, I forgot, you can't play Windows Media files on your Linux box. Well, in three years, the OGG video codecs will be much more popular, and this won't be so much of an issue.
Also, Microsoft has the courts in the U.S.A., and the E.U. on it's back, which must be eating up at least some of their cashflow, (not much, but a little bit here and there), plus the X-Box isn't going to make as much as they originally thought, especially when Linux runs on it unmodified - if they are relying on all X-Box owners to buy at least a few games, then there goes another good business plan down the toilet.
So, to sum this all up, Microsoft is pushing Palladium, and everything related to it forward, way, way, forward, because it's the only thing that can save them.
Palladium looks a lot like copy protection on PSX and al. My solution : MODCHIPS :)
ther still other architecture..
i am sure many ppl will switch to ppc for exemple.
i also belive that if somme main board manifacturer
allow overclocking somme bios will have a disable
DRM option.
microsoft, intel and other drm suporter are just
shoting them self in the foot.
-bob
One possible scenario is that Palladium, etc. is adopted by businesses and schools as they upgrade hardware, but individuals resist and provide a market for non-DRM hardware (Apple, white boxes, etc). If these security schemes actually work (a big if) they will be useful to and adopted in institutions and businesses.
People generally like to use the same thing at home as at work, so it isn't clear how this will work out.
Intel is working with privacy groups...
Shouldn't that be "Intel is working over privacy groups?
Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
apart from the frightening, if only fictitious (i hope and pray), possibility that future legislation require by law all PCs to have DRM - how exactly will this story affect us GNU/Linux folks? is the new hardware x86 compatible? able to run 386 compiled binaries - or would it require all low-level software to recognize and deal with their DRM? can the linux kernel ignore their DRM? will kernel hackers have some fun with the thing? can it be useful apart from privacy intrusion? if so, how would it be useful? i guess my real question is: will this news greatly affect the GNU/Linux x86 community? if so, for the better or the worse? and that, of course, is the great benefit to the OS... if Intel should take "the ground out from under us", i can turn to Mac Hardware... Sparc, ARM... ;-)
DRM is a very, very different beast. The opponents are much more organized, and much fiercer in their (our) opposition. I have already decided to oppose Dianne Feinstein, my senior Senator, for no reason other than her co-sponsorship of S.2048. (Anyone want to run in the 2006 Demo primary?) I'm sure many others will do the same if necessary.
The point is not that we've won, or even that we're winning; but the battle is by no means lost at this point.
sulli
RTFJ.
What?
KISS MY ARSE
and only the guilty are concerned about little things like civil rights and due process.
...this will likely turn out to be for the used computer industry. All those older, but non-DRM'd, machines are probably going to be in great demand when this whole Palladium thing goes into effect.
Keep those old systems, OS's, and applications, folks. You may well end up being deeply thankful that you did!
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
I was thinking about getting a new MB/CPU combo. Thanks Intel and AMD for making my mind up. VIA here I come.
Isn't Palladium a hardware/software combination? If so, then you won't be able to play unless you have Palladium enabled AND you are using an "approved" player. Hmm, MS is in this bed, do you think that they will approve of Linux players?
At first I thought I wouldn't mind if they implemented Palladium as long as there was a non-Palladium option. But we all know that if it gets a foothold, the non-Palladium option would be phased out.
Think it won't happen? Who is going to stop them?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Are [ZiLOG] still around?
Yes. ZiLOG makes the eZ80 Internet server appliance platform based on a 50 MHz pipelined Z80 processor, which is 25 times faster than the non-pipelined 8 MHz Z80-clone processor in the Game Boy Color system.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually, I encourage Microsoft's work on Palladium.
Why?
Because it will herald a great (and much needed) rebirth of "personal computing." It'll launch (IMHO) a fairly comprehensive reassessment and reappraisal of why we use computers in the first place. And it'll most likely start a significant portion of us back on (or near) square one -- the late 1970's where the notion of "personal computing" really took off.
I'm serious. For those of us alive in the late 70's, it was a great time to be a "hobbyist." There weren't geeks and no real "hackers" or "script-kiddies". Just a bunch of people who -- especially here in America -- shared a common passion for building little boxes out of solder, wires, and circuit boards so that -- after everything was assembled correctly -- we could watch a couple lights blink on and off.
Later, once stuff like the TRS-80 and AppleII gained ground, it was really pretty cool. I still remember hanging out in the arcades and trying to write stuff like a TRS-80 version of Pac Man or Donkey Kong in Z80 assembly language with -- what? -- 127 X 47 blocky, black and white graphics.
(Insert snide comment here about old, outdated graphics, but if you do, you miss the point.)
I see this sort of "community hobbyism" in the Linux community (even though they don't call it that) but I think if Microsoft pushes forth this Palladium, we'll see a pretty significant split between those who embrace whatever new technology comes down the pike and those who take a hard look at where we've been and what we've achieved vis a vis Palladium and realize that better technology doesn't necessarily mean much. It means better technology, maybe, but it certainly doesn't herald or promised a better "user experience."
Palladium will also, I think, significant a fairly radical leap in the notion of "personal computing." This DRM technology is not personal computing. It's corporate computing. There's nothing personal about it. There's not much fun about it either. It leaves the "hobbyists" -- now called geeks, I guess -- out in the cold and looking toward all the nifty retro-tech.
The retro-tech movement, I think, will be stronger than ever if Palladium -- or something like it -- comes to pass. What that means -- retro-tech -- I'm not entirely sure, but I think it will be a gradual awareness that "good enough" really is "good enough" and something along the lines of "personal computing is dead, long live personal computing!"
It's not about losing the ability to rip DVDs. It's not about downloading MP3s off of the P2P system of the week. It's about the right to decide what I want to do with MY computer. It's about Microsoft telling me that I can't use my leaglly obtained software or entertainment content because it doesn't meet their standards (ie: it's not signed). It's about DRM systems suddenly deciding that you can't boot Linux anymore.
Bottom line: It's about me losing control of what I own. My computer is mine and you, Bill Gates, et al just keep your fucking hands off!
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Step one: Roll out paladium in all new PC's.
Step two: Buy a law requiring DRM be locked on in all PC's
Step three: profit
Let's just hope this fails at step one. If this catches on, expect a lot of talk about how anyone who doesn't have it enabled is a terrorist/hacker/software pirate. Most of the public will be ignorant enough to believe them, and then, you'll be legally required to run a
MS OS or you'll be breaking the law by not having DRM.
I really hope I have to start burning CPU's into FPGA's and have a system that runs at 200MHz in order to fake a palladium enabled CPU.
Life is too short to proofread.
Especially since you don't really need a new computer unless you are working with multimedia.
Or your old computer breaks, and power supplies, hard drives, etc. with the appropriate hardware interface are no longer available due to either obsolescence or CBDTPA.
If all you want to do is some word processing your old machine is almost certainly fast enough.
In the future, I see the office automation computer industry becoming more like the refrigerator or dishwasher industry: you replace it when it breaks. The most obvious thing keeping this from already having happened is the fact that the prominent editable rich document format (.doc) is controlled by a company that makes its software twice as bloated every two years.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I've been in the computer industry for 8 years, since I was 15 years old. Problem is, I'm not buying new computers. Why? Because I don't care any longer. Not only that, but I don't have the time. The problem that Intel will face is that many of my peers are feeling the same way. Why upgrade? Why care to purchase the next best thing when it comes to home computing? I've got much better things to spend my money on. Cars, house, vacation... I would think that Intel would want every last customer it can find; however, by taking this approach, they push me away. Oh well. My 733 Mhz PIII works just fine. Someone give me a reason to submit to something better....
Those of us that run PPC and Mac OS X do not have this problem. Apple and Steve Jobs have publically said that piracy is not a technology issue but a social issue that cannot be resolved with encryption. So while you are worrying about Palladium, I am getting the maximum value out of my Mac and my iPod.
Don't steal music! -- Steve Jobs, as seen on all iPods as its "DRM" system.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
You KNOW that'll be how it is descibed in keynote speeches in conventions for the next couple of years.
Maybe I can play DReaM stuff on my Dreamcast running Linux?
I bet they can't stop me from using my all powerfull 8MM Jack on a Palladium machine.
There is no 8mm jack. Are you referring to the 1/8 inch audio connector? Microsoft can disable that as well by inserting inaudible DRM watermarks into audio output. Removing such watermarks is a crime under the DMCA (17 USC 1201 and 1202).
Will I retire or break 10K?
slashdot-type geeks will tend to keep one DRM-enabled computer for games and movies, and another DRM-disabled computer for hacking
That is, until the second computer free of digital restrictions management can no longer boot due to hardware failure. What makes you think the CBDTPA (or whatever Sen. Hollings and company are calling their bill right now) won't ban selling parts for pre-ban computers?
Will I retire or break 10K?
And of course, ALL OF THIS will be backed up by legislation.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I wonder if booting to the linux kernel will be included in the "Malicious program" category that will not be allowed to run. Since this is controlled in hardware as well as software, I foresee some problems about to arise in the future.
The content providers have probably lost the battle for the GPC. The GPC, however, is too difficult for most people to use(I see this fact proven every day), and manufacturers are increasingly going to offer specialized equipment to manage content that will be simpler and more user friendly. Consumers will likely acquire these devices for the same reason consumers acquire TiVo instead of using their GPC. This is a battle that the content providers can and may well win. In addition, Intel and Microsoft want to be the company that provides the OEM component for such hardware, as this is where the money is to be made. As has also been mentioned, the current initiative at MS and Intel clearly point in this direction.
GPCs will then be relegated to their role of 20 years ago, i.e. business and hobbyist. Businesses will largely have no problem with content control, as it solves a number of current problems. One of these is that MS Windows comes with a bunch of consumer crap that is not suitable on a business machine. I suspect that the business machine will look more like the dumb terminal that the current GPC. Subscriber software is also part of this model.
Hobbyist will likely use GPCs with some form *nix, maybe Linux, BSD, or MacOS. This willl not feature content control. I feel it is likely that content will continue have unrestricted use on these machines. This hope rests on the idea that most consumer will use specialized devices that have content control built in, and the leakage from GPC will be small enough so that the companies will not spend money on locking the content itself too tightly
So, as long Apple( and by extension the PPC) remains DRM free, and someone produces DRM free Intel clones, there we should be Ok. MS Windows and Intel are already lost cause. Neither are making money with the home GPC and their best hope for profits is to align themselves with the pro DRM faction.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
It looks like the next computer I build will be an AMD running Linux instead of an Intel running Linux.
Joe Sixpack reaction: Awesome - 4.8 is almost twice 2.4! I gotta have one! Awesome! Now if only they called it the "Pentium VI Voodoo 5D Max with 5.1 surround"! It would be even more awesome! Cool! Must spend money!
I'm not joking. I've met people like this.
Now, is that Digital Rights Managment or Digital Rights Manipulation? It's not the Government that's eliminating our rights, people. It's the "Big Businesses" that are going way too far in enforcing their copyrights. "Fair Use" will become an endangered term if we allow this to keep up.
While it never seems to do any good, I'm encouraging everyone here to write their local Government Lackey (read, Congressman/woman) and tell them "Hey. Fuck you. Fair Use is our right. We spend our money, that particular piece of Media becomes ours to do with as we see fit." Granted, we shouldn't be handing over this stuff to people who haven't paid their share of the cost, but come on.
Recently, there has been an alarming rash of Patenting and subsequent lawsuits of things from , to E-Mail Forwarding and the extremely stupid renig of the free portion of the MP3 license.
This has got to stop. We might end up relying on the Government to put a stop to this madness, otherwise we're going to have a Digital Oligarchy...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
Palladium _will_ be broken. Unless they implement the whole of the operating system on hardware, palladium's software side will be hacked quite soon (remember the XBox).
The Xbox didn't require hardward tokens to decrypt code entering the core. Palladium will be broken, but not by software hackers -- people will need a logic analyzer and dedicated hardware on the busses to defeat it. Perhaps something you plug your DRAM into. Of course, that would be a circumvention device which would be considered terrorism under Clinton's legislation being enforced by Ashcroft...
Of course, if a s/w hacker breaks RSA/DiffHlmn then we don't have to worry...
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
the only way they can stop me is to make C compilers illegal and punishable by death...
RMS has that situation covered.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Commodore64, baby! Woo!
--- What
That old boxen with a AWE 32 in it will come in handy then!
It's easy as hell to knock up a PCI card with a ADC on it, say $20 tops.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
The real question is how obnoxious Microsoft will make the OS restrictions.
Incidentally, we ought to be seeing some Palladium-enabled games soon, ones where modified clients can be detected by the server. That will be how the technology gets debugged.
i know this might sound a bit lame, i could run linux or a unix variant on my computer but i won't until the damn things support directx and every game on the market for PC.
i'm afraid most unix users are stuck in a world where geek language/ideas are the norm but it serves for nothing in penetrating the "aol luser" market. games are the future of entertainment and if linux or unix based OS's can't get into that market then it's mainstream death is ensured and M$ wins.
now i know some geek will be desperately trying to sound smart and throw off some obscure OS that might run most games but that is still unacceptable, it has to run any game without any shell tweaking or bugs. only then will i trash my illegal copy of windoze 98 and start a new life as solely a unix user.
Um, sorry to clue you in, but Zilog filed for Chapter 11 last February. They're still around and I hope that they survive, but I wouldn't bet my lunch money on it.
Though I have my doubts, obviously.
From the article:
"Palladium" is entirely an opt-in solution; systems will ship with the "Palladium" hardware and software features turned off. The user of the system can choose to simply stay with this default setting, leaving all "Palladium"-related capabilities (hardware and software) disabled.
Turning "Palladium" completely off includes turning it off in hardware, which prevents any software from turning it back on. Users have the ultimate control over their systems and their information; "Palladium" does not entail any global requirements.
How will Palladium know the difference between personal information that a law abiding citizen wants to keep secure and information a terrorist wants to secure?
Recall the Clipper Chip and the controversy that encryption presented to law enforcement. Now we are going to MANDATE encryption, at least in terms of availability, where is the logic here? Where does law enforcement stand on this march towards enforced encryption?
Just as importantly, if there is a "backdoor" for the purposes of law enforcement, where is the trustability? A secure system that is already compromised. I don't see how the technology can balance the right to privacy with the need for national security. One side will lose.
Okay if both Intel and AMD are going to support Paladnium, what other processors are good?
X(7): A program for managing terminal windows. See also screen(1).
Now that would be a kicker. Having China champion a cause for freedom.
What is this world coming to?
I do not need smart computers, digital right management and all that crap. I can survive on my own. And if someone tells me that I need to have drm enabled I will say "No, sir, I do not" and walk away. If people do not want to do business with me. I will not do it with them. I eagerly wait for the demise Disney et al
Ah yes. Let's sell this crippleware by telling the sheeple that it will protect them from viruses and hackers. No one will ever ask how LaGrande is supposed to be able to tell the difference between a virus and an unsigned program. Unless they made it so it was impossible to run unsigned programs...Draw your own conclusions.
-R
not to be bait or wotever, but both intel and amd agreed to support pallidium w/ on-chip hardware (crypto keys i think) a while back....
search google for confirmation.....
dxh
Well, head down to your local discount software house and start stocking up on your favorite [cough cough gasp gasp] Windows applications. Get enough to last for a while.
:)
*OR* just switch over to Linux
"Sometimes the truth is stupid." - Lawrence, creator of Prime Intellect
Named after Microsoft's operating system, "LaGrand" is Spanish for (roughly) "fatass"
Do we really care? By that I'm saying, whatever MS comes up with can be hacked, especially given their wonderful security record. If not, then we can start our own hardware platform, running Linux, with a processor that doesn't lock us out.
...) can be generated, faked, or stolen by someone else. They will violate the DMCA in the process, but stupid laws have a tendency to be ignored (see prohibition) when the public doesn't feel like it serves their interests.
Does anyone really think that Microsoft, even with hardware help built into the processor, will be able to keep a virus from running on their systems? Whatever a program needs to have in order to run (signature, key,
I once worked on a hardware security board for the IBM PC. Knowing what I do about that type of system, I know that any really secure setup they can generate will probably result in unacceptable slowing of the program execution, or it won't be secure. Even if they do it in the best possible way for security, they need to keep knowledge about how it worked, and about how to configure software to run on it, TOTALLY secret. One leak, one copy of the program configuration software gets out, a copy of the spec gets out, and it's all over, your security is about to vanish.
Don't they get it yet? If they can create it, someone else can break it. There is no magic solution to their problems, they have to live in the real world with the rest of us.
Also, indie bands, movies, etc, will get a chance to grow by offering their wares in more open unrestrictive formats.
Unless you are that addicted to the teat of big media, who cares?
Finally, it can be used for good too. Imagine using it to help harden your linux box.
Last but not least, the digital keys are stored somewhere, and transmitted somehow. Attacks are possible, and someone will eventually crack it. Nevermind the fact if the key systems are cracked, how are they gonna update it?
Copy protection was popular on consumer PC software in the 80s, and was dropped for one reason, support requirements. Imagine a bug in the OS support, denying legit uses of media, or the umpteen Joe Morons calling MS each day for new keys because they upgraded, or a bug in the OS support for TCPA (Previous article on XP copy prot scheme problem shows this is a VERY likely problem given MS's track record ).
Support calls are a money eatter, they killed copy-prot in the 80s, and they will kill it again.
So I've read the patents, and they seem like a bunch of silly horse-puckey to me. The whole point is that "protected content" doesn't stay in memory when unsigned code is being executed. If a debugger gets run on the system, it renounces it's private keys that allow it to decode protected content.
What is to stop the entire system from running in a debugger, or an emulator for that matter? Sure, you might need a Palladium enabled CPU to proxy the authentication back to the Palladium OS - a classic man in the middle attack.
Until I hear about some way to stop that, I'm going to continue laughing at this entire scheme, since it will fall flat on it's face. Geez, I fire up VMware with a couple of tweaks, run the Palladium OS in that, and proxy the credentials from my real Palladium CPU, and obtain a scheme level break... how can these people continue to delude themselves?
here's the article xplaining../ 4/25891.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content
here's my summary of that article.
Check it, you got a palladium complient CPU/mobo/who knows what else.
You got linux.
You try to run linux and your CPU tells you that you CAN'T because it doesn't recognize the correct palladium certificate.
So you call up redhat and they tell you that they've made a special binary for Palladium CPUs.
you install and it works. You fire up Apache and BAM, CPU/Mobo don't detect the Palladium cert and it fails.
Someone makes an Apache binary with cert and you run it and it works. Then for whatever reason you patch apache and recompile and BAM, CPU/Mobo won't run it.
You see, Palladium will require MS Issued certs for ALL BINARIES and potentially ALL CONTENT. Without the cert, your app won't run.
You won't even be able to write your own software without paying the MSTax for your Palladium cert.
In other words, we're all fucked. Microsoft is Kind George, and the only way out is to truly become Robin Hood. We need to hack the fuck out of Microsoft so badly that they go out of business in a day or two.
Registrant:
Brady (PALLADIUMSUCKS-COM-DOM)
Moritz
4040 San Felipe Suite 224
Houston, Texas 77027
United States
713 871 8668
brady[[@fitiri.com
Domain Name: PALLADIUMSUCKS.COM
Administrative Contact:
Brady Moritz brady]]@fitiri.com
4040 San Felipe Suite 224
Houston, TX 77027
United States
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Colin Moritz colin[[@viptx.net
4040 San Felipe Suite 224
Houston, Texas 77027
United States
713 871 8668
Record last updated on 26-Jun-2002.
Record expires on 26-Jun-2003.
Record created on 26-Jun-2002.
Domain servers in listed order:
dns.fitiri.com 216.136.86.132
ns1.granitecanyon.com 205.166.226.38
ns2.granitecanyon.com 64.63.77.89
(interestingly, palladium.com is not a MSFT owned domain)
....and if you dont buy one of these then the terrorists have already won.
> and give up on computers
Here's an mit lecture on the subject, converted from pdf by the mighty google.
Hey...here's "Modern Analog Field Computing", a virtual book. That might be too specialized.
And here's a good usenet post on this, posted by David F. Skoll of doe.carleton.ca back in '92:
Oh...you were joking. Never mind.
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
Jack me up
ahh metrification has left my head screwed up...
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
What this will do is allow the OS to put the CPU into a mode where it only executes signed code. If you don't want it, you don't use it.
Besides, with JITs and interpreters, it doesn't really help security anyway--a lot of Microsoft's security problems are with interpreted code. You know: stupid little stuff, like VBscript and JScript, and if they can't get those interpreters to do the right checking, they won't enforce signatures correctly either.
Palladium is like another one of those gee-whiz ideas that people at Microsoft are prone to fixating on. You know, like putting a database into the kernel or using object marshalling for writing application data to disk. Ideas the rest of the world had and discarded decades ago because they are so stupid.
Intel to Build DRM into Next- Generation CPUs!?
I am so surprised. And all this time, I thought it was big businesses that was championing consumers' rights.
What worries me most is MS's extremely poor prior record on security. The most recent holes discovered reveal that almost anyone could trick an end user into running "digitally signed" code. The problem wasn't with the security method, but in MS'es implimentation.
So what happens if everyone is running DRM and it turns out there is a hole? Does this mean that suddenly pirates can start whacking files at random?
Do we take the system offline to "fix" it? And if we do, what happens to all those nice encrypted files? Hopefully they're not all the word documents you need to run your business...
Microsoft monopoly+Media Monopoly=Palladium for everyone.
Very simply:
1. Palladium-encrypted (broken) content media helps keep Content Industries (contrast with: Artists) alive by giving them control, so they like it.
2. As soon as it's profitable to do so, the CIs will Palladium-encrypt (break) every piece of media they can.
3. When Palladium is available everywhere, it will be profitable for the CIs to digitally Palladium-encrypt (break) every piece of Mass Market Content that they create.
4. Any piece of Palladium-encrypted content--DVD, Music CD, software program--that is not signed will fail to play unless Palladium is there to decrypt it.
5. The MS monopoly (and Intel's and AMD's respective complicity in that monopoly) can make sure that Palladium is available almost everywhere at once.
6. When broken content is the norm, Mac and Linux will not be able to use that content any more without supporting Palladium.
7. Mac and Linux will have to either support Palladium or (illegally!!, in the US) circumvent it to be useful.
8. Linux is not an organization, so it will likely go in both directions at once.
9. Mac is an organization, and it will probably not support circumvention.
This is very, very bad. Our best hope is for a severe Microsoft anti-trust penalty, and for our legislators to wise up and stop passing laws to prop up business plans.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Remember the unique ID number that was embedded in P-IIIs? And not in P-IVs?
Yeah, this will last. If it ever happens.
These tribulations will last for about seven years, which is about how long it'll take for all our old computers to break, and then Jesus will return and take all us Linux geeks to Heaven... Leaving behind everyone else in a Micro$oft-based License-6.0/DRM hell, wailing and gnashing their teeth.
How exactly is this going to work? Will this be just instruction set changes to facilitate Palladium.
Or will it be able to detect streams of copyrighted data, and verify with the OS, that this is a legit use of the data?
We geeks need some technical details, maybe a whitepaper or something.....
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Will this be the end of the Mac, or will it be the best reason to make the switch?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
No, I think it's a great idea for parents to control what their kids watch BY USING THEIR OWN BRAIN.
Why should I have to pay an idiot tax because people like you are too stupid or apathetic to raise their own stupid and apathetic kids properly?
If you so desperately need it, perhaps we should just implant the V-chip directly into your head, though in your case, it will no doubt need an independent power source.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
Credit to whoever posted this earlier, it's a great link.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
I wonder where the PowerPC chip will fall in all of this...
All about me
Okay, it seems most of us are concerned about how this will effect things in the realm of the internet etc... (besides there will be little we can do to about local applications using this technology)
Any how... with regaurds to hardware DRM info being shared over the net, however, we should be able to effectivly block this. Am I right???
Isn't this kind of what firewalls and packet filters can be used for? Couldn't we create a device that sits between our PC and the network that removes the DRM tags from the data?
If the tags are being placed in by software, then couldn't we have a moddified TCP/IP stack (or whatever protocol your using) that removes this data before encapsulation?
What about the OSI model - all comunications are heald using this model - we should be able to control (with software) what data gets sent out on our lines... if not at the local device then at some other device...
Or am I just not understanding 100% how this technology works??
Tell shopIntel what you think shopintel@intel.com
Not yet....
No-onboard sound/graphics/nic keeps me away from certain motherboards... now no-onboard drm will keep me away from certain cpus. Oh, and I do recommend everyone else does the same thing. ;)
Im a geek and people ask me what to buy - marketing has little effect on people around me.
Apple now has more customers!
Pixels keep you awake!
What a seriously disturbed fuck. You need to go back to your doctor and ask for more medication -- what was given to you isn't working.
Wow, I can't believe all the wacky, tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theories I've heard just with this story ALONE. I guess there's a reason why Slashdot readers have the reputation they do. You conspiracy theory nuts sound like ten year old kids rambling on about all sorts of off-the-wall implications arising from Palladium and DRM:
"Yeah Microsoft, they have this thing called Play-de-um and it's real bad. They put this thing in your chip that makes it so you're a slave. Then, then they put these wires in your brain and if you don't pay five dollars to Microsoft every day you'll DIE."
I mean come on. Stop it already folks. Boycott the technology if it means that much to you. Don't just sit around in your basement typing out this meaningless garbage in the hopes that you'll be known on the internet as some sort of "technological visionary".
I'm pretty sure this will never take off, and here's why.
Piracy is the killer app.
The way something like this has a chance of working is based upon the assumption that Joe Sixpack won't care or won't complain until it's too late. Ah! But here's the problem with that...statistics say that Joe Sixpack probably has pirated software.
Joe tries to boot Doom 4 on his Palladium box, and it's a no-go. Joe hates new computer, and tells his friends. Intel/AMD/MS make no money.
They'll do this for 1 quarter, and then show the flagging sales to The United States of Disney, and palladium will go the way of the CPUID.
I hope.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
If the users dont want palladium it wont fly. No company selling stuff will force people into something they dont want if it makes the numbers look bad. How many will toss their old PC to buy a brand new that cant do the same things as their old one? If there are enough restrain against it initially it wont ever fly. I think the demand for non palladium processors would be enough to support a manufacturer in taiwan or whatever to make these and market them.
Either way information to common users is the key and if we could get backing from major privacy organisations it would help.
HTTP/1.1 400
and, in response to someone else's post, would writing Intel actually *accomplish* anything? I've never bothered writing a company about anything that I didn't agree with because I figured the person who would end up reading it wouldn't give a damn anyway. Unless a few thousand write with serious concerns, I don't see how it would make a difference at all.
Lastly, with the safety confidence of Americans since 9/11, will the average American just accept this if they're told it's all pros and no cons? I don't feel like many people will be upset about this because Americans have such low attention spans...; they might raise a brow for a moment, then see a Britney Spears commercial and forget all about it. It seems like slashdotters are the exception to the norm. Although there are a whole lot of you...
You should check out Thomas Greene's article on this. He's a great journalist, IMHO. He makes many good points, but I especially agree with the point about the current American economy in the second to last paragraph. Also, I feel that since most people are pretty computer literate and can't stand spyware, spam, etc. they aren't going to buy into this. Remember how badly Intel got reamed with the processor serial thing a few years back? The more we educate people on how their rights are being screwed with these sort of things, the better off we'll be.
Are any of you old enough to remember the 1970s? In 1969, the "foreign car" (not made in america) was rare. By the start of the 70s, the American car manufacturers had become clueless, and thought the American public were all idiots that would buy any old piece of crap they cared to produce.
By 1980 the American car industry was nearly dead, with AMC gobe and Chrystler (and Dodge and Plymouth) needing welfare from the feds to stay alive.
They forgot about the Japanese, who had belatedly discovered quality.
Fast forward to now, when hardware and software manufacturers became clueless, and thought the American public were all idiots that would buy any old piece of digital rights crap they cared to produce.
They forgot about the Chinese, who have belatedly discovered Linux. My guess is in ten years we will be buying smuggled Chinese processors and the American economy will make the 1930s look like the 1990s in comparison.
They're not only trying to shoot themselves in the foot, they're aiming squarely at the head of an already shaky economy.
-steve
thefragfest.com
There is some benefit in being able to secure a machine at the hardware level so that unauthorized code cannot be run. The question is, who holds the keys? I think most /.'ers would prefer to hold the keys to their owm machine, as I would. The problem is Palladium, it's who controls the keys to the machine when Palladium reaches it's final form.
If the key holders aren't we who own the computers than things will be very bad indeed, since it could seriously damage the Open Source movement. (Code you compile on your own machine would not be "trusted.")
The way to handle this is vote with your checkbook as usual. Don't purchase DVD's that won't run on a machine you don't have complete control over. Lobbying your congressional representatives probably wouldn't hurt either.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
I have a friend who spends lots of time on newsgroups, Kazaa, etc. copying movies. At the same time, I read articles like this, and spend $10 sending certified delivery confirmed letters to congressmen like Mr. Hollings and businesses like Intel and AMD. This is highly counterproductive. My friend saves $10/month on movie rentals, and I spend $10/month on letters.
I've talked to this person and they say "Oh, I just copy movies I wouldn't rent anyway." (I assume because they are too expensive) They have a valid point since some products are just ridiculously expensive. But they are not helping the problem. If they spent their effort protesting, or finding alternatives as they did pirating, we would be in good shape. I would probably be better off paying them $10/month and having them rent the movies, than to spend it writing letters.
What should I do? Do I turn them in? Do I hassle them? Do I pay them to stop doing it? It's my rights they are taking away, but turning them in seems ridiculous. Is there somethnig we can do in mass that could prevent this problem?
(interestingly, palladium.com is not a MSFT owned domain)
Ya, they'd have a real tough time screwing Kevin Siembieda out of that one.
For those that don't know, he's the guy who owns Palladium Games, e.g. Rifts, Robotech, TMNT. Funny that the current Palladium.Com site is not run by Palladium games, as I would have expected a company that is so intamtly intwined with Sci-Fi to try and be at the edge of technology.
Somehow, I don't expect MS to try pulling a tradmark dispute type attack to get the palladium.com domain name. Between the prior existance of a trademark on that name, and palladium being an element, I doubt they could win (but then I am not a lawyer, and I don't even watch them on TV.)
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
This will probably go the way of the processor serial number. It'll come out, people will complain, and it will dissapear.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Been reading Stanislaw Lem, again, haven't you?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
...MS gives CDT big $$$...that's how Intel is working with privacy groups.
I'm but a lowly intern at a large (the biggest) IT firm, but it seems to me, in reading a description of TCPA/Palladium, that it is fairly dependant on ubiquitous internet connectivity. Many of the 'features' will only function when a computer can connect to the TCPA servers. (And what if those servers go down or are hacked?)
Maybe I'm not up on my latest numbers, but isn't a large portion of the US (not to mention the rest of the world) still not connected to the internet? And without nearly complete market saturation, this scheme really doesn't carry much weight. Right?
I've heard a quote from someone in Microsoft that Palladium will be meaningless unless 100 million computers use it. Applications that "take advantage" of Palladium aren't supposed to be able to run in case something fishy is detected.
.001% chance it'll think its pirated.
Let's suppose that this system works correctly 99.9% of the time. Let's also supose that each of the theoretical 100 million computers are used exactly once per day. This means that every day, 100 000 people will try to run an application, but be denied because the system isn't perfect. How are these errors going to be cleared? Do you have to call in to Microsoft (or whoever the trusted provider is) and supply your information, so that they can verify you and connect back to your computer and allow your application to run? This process won't be automated, because if it was, it would be part of the Palladium spec. There'll have to be a human factor. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to hire 100 000 phone-ops to handle error calls; there'll be more like 100 operators, leaving 1000 calls each, per day. What if you're running a business and that important final draft of a proposal is due today? When you open Word to print it, is today going to be the day that your computer errors and must be cleared? If you're delayed six (eight, ten, twelve?) hours in your proposal, then Palladium's cost you money, and there won't be a thing you can do about it.
What about "mission-critical" systems as were mentioned in a thread yesterday? On top of all the different problems a computer can have, you can't worry about it not working because there's a
What happens if your mission critical apps stop working when you restore after a disk failure or a CPU melt down and you can't get the license center on the phone? What happens to your data if someone steals your computer and all you have left are the backups? What do you do when you are rolling out 1,000 desk tops, and you need to image them? Do you license each seperately? Kind of defeats imaging, doesn't it?
DRM is pseudo intellectual mental masturbation until and unless it's loose enoungh not to cause problems in the data center. And if it's that loose, it's loose enough to wiggle quite a bit through. Anyone remember when all the apps needed a dongle on the printer port? Some of those are still around, but it's a red flag to the BOFH's that this is an app that's a real dog.
DRM as outlined here is a flash in the pan. Soon as it flops in the business world, it's dead meat for everything but entertainment. And if that's all that uses it, Joe six pack will slam dunk it just as DIViX and DAT audio was slam dunked. I say let 'em waste their stock holders money... Hey, that's an idea. Buy stock in these companies and then sue them for wasting profits chasing a non-started like this. Whack 'em hard enough, they've got to stop doing nutso stuff like this.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Palladium was the statue which was designed to protect Troy. But what resulted in the theft of the Palladium? A trojan horse! Has MS ever put TH's in their software? Why yes, I believe they have. Do the FBI want backdoors into civilian computers? Yep, they lobbied for the that awhile ago. C'mon guys, there must be a metaphor somewhere!
o r202941
Here's a quick education to piece the clues together from: http://www.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html#anch
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
Judging by these post, I'd wager that 99% of you haven't even really read anything about palladium other than the FUD that is being spewed by the extremely vocal tinfoil hat crowd. Seriously...take a look at the spec, try to actually understand what Palladium does and how it is implemented.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That'll be pretty odd to soder a mod-chip to your motherboard. Sooo many mother boards, so many mod-chips to choose from.
What if, via all of the DRM/Palladium stuff going on, the message from "our side" changed from the usual M$ bashing into "concerns about privacy and Big Brother"?
I mean, MaryJane Math Teacher and Joe Sixpack dont give a flying shit about ideals when it comes to computing. They don't care about source code. They don't care about who produced what app and they definitely don't share your fervert view of Open Source and Free Software. They just want the stuff to work. However, when you throw in a "Big Brother is watching" comment, they definitely listen up. How could Palladium and DRM NOT have privacy implications? Allegedly, its in the damn design that they can track what you watch/listen to.
In the end, that may be all MaryJane and Joe care about because it sure looks that way now.
As evil as Palladium/TCPA is, there's one really big factor going for us: the economy is in the toilet. People (and certainly not businesses) are not going to rush out to buy all new 'compliant' computers just so they can be test subjects in corporate America's latest marketing experiment. Neither are they going to rush out to buy a successor to DVD, which is only now starting to really catch on as a mainstream format. And how many people have broadband internet? Or for that matter, how many have RELIABLE broadband internet?! So now, you're left with early adopters with deep pockets. And why would they want a piece of the action when the technology sucks and is a step backwards. Go pick up a copy of any Hi-Fi or videophile enthusiast magazine and see how many articles warn of the dangers of Hollywood's latest power grabs. On the other hand, these DRM systems are going to be pushed hard and shoved down many unexpecting consumer throats--components pieced together like a puzzle that will form a jail cell for information when the last piece is placed.
This whole thing could be defeated in much the same way that caused the rapid demise of Circuit City's DIVX format. (also heavily criticized by A/V enthusiasts) But because this is an industry-wide effort, it's going to take a bit more to cripple. We need massive campaigns to inform the public. We need to write our legislators and explain why this movement is bad for the consumer and for small business. We need to boycott all companies and products that support these DRM systems. We need to get Open Source solutions into the marketplace as fast as possible to strengthen the competition and increase the voices of dissent.
These companies are trying to take away basic freedoms paid for us with the bloodshed of brave men and women who fought to make this a free country and an just, open society. We must not let greed take these freedoms away from us. That's not what capitalism is all about.
This could be a big boost to linux. If college kids (for example) have two choices: a DRM enabled operating system, and one which is not, which do you think they will use?
IEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I'm sick and tired of pulling my hair out while reading about this garbage. Legally, there may be no way to stop these faceless corporations from enforcing Digital Rights reMoved. Let's take down the MPAA/RIAA et al 1776 style!!
Sorry, I had to vent... this is so frustrating...
Mike
Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
Well, granted the hardware is more closed due to Apple, but I've yet to hear of any Palladium type tech going into the PowerPC as of yet. I am unsure where Apple stands on this, but despite the fact I sometimes think his turtleneck is on a bit too tight, Jobs should be smart enough to see this as a golden opportunity to woo the geeks who want their computer to be more than a glorified set top box. Apple has done some surprising things to foster open source development and is in fact benefiting from such software being ported from UNIX to the Mac.
To join the Palladium dark side would be to truely and finally cut their own throats for good, and I think Apple knows that.
That said, if this starts to happen, keep an eye on Apple and Mac OS X and the PowerPC and see if they remain a free alternative.
Oh and if you don't like OS X for some reason, you can always run Linux on the Mac, several variants are available.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Warning: The above message is an "astroturf" post.
Apple wont be forced to do jack because your above senario simply will not happen. The reason the movie and music industries have not already replaced the crackable DVD and audio CD formats is because a new system would break every existing player. I would hope they actually do try and tell a few hundred million consumers around the world that they have to buy new devices to listen to music and movies. That would probably get the biggest "fuck off" in the history of the world.
Intel is just putting encryption/signing functions in silicon. They call it LaGrande. It can be used to encrypt data on your harddrive, or used in DRM. Chances are someone will write an version of SSL that uses LaGrande to do the math. It can also be disabled just like the PIIIs serial number.
I say lets make lemmonade and use it to encrypt peer-to-peer sessions. Let the RIAA think about that.
Try Palladiumbooks.com.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/te xt/Pd/key.html
Now, what's that mean? Why did they pick it?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Mr. Spock? Is that you?
Your post shows you know so much about DRM and Palladium.
Yes you, the epitome of proper behavior and pure logic. One day we'll all be as insigtful, eloquent and downright smart as you.
But until I get a V-Chip and DRM around my place, I've just got to practice.
Fuu
FFuuuck yyyooou.
Fuck you.
Wow, I'm already getting better.
I'll keep practicing & maybe one day I can be as smart as you are.
Q: But can't you just turn it off? A: Sure - unless your system administrator configures your machine in such a way that TCPA is mandatory, you can always turn it off. You can then run your PC with administrator privileges, and use insecure applications.
What that translates into is that you can run Linux and Linux applications (or other non-Microsoft operating systems) on the PC without having to worry about this nonsense. It would keep you from playing copy-controlled proprietary content (because you wouldn't be able to present the right credentials to the remote site to get the data), but that's just fine as far as I'm concerned. I think we couldn't hope for a better booster to Linux market penetration or open content than this.
Firstly, think globally, act locally, as the slogan says. Keep talking to your friends that pirate stuff an overly large amount. I've done with various people and sometimes it works (particularly with younger people). When I run into people who habitually use pirated software, I point them in the direction of true free software that does most or all of what they need. Many times people are surprised that so much truly free software exists. Believe it or not, many people haven't even heard of OpenOffice or StarOffice.
Secondly, some of the problem undoubtedly has to do with the fact that we fundamentally treat information differently than hard goods, even if maybe we shouldn't always do so. Unless your friend is a serious kleptomaniac, I doubt he or she would walk into a store, start stuffing items into his or her pocket, and say "Oh, I'm just stealing the items that I wouldn't buy anyway." But we tend to use this rationalization with information. Part of the reason is probably that we have always had the ability (and right) to copy information to some degree via fair use, where we have never had any right to make such "fair use" of someone else's hard goods. Since fair use already allows some copying, it's very easy to extend the boundary and rationalize your way into more widespread copying which actually goes well beyond traditional fair use. All of the sudden "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" becomes fair use in someone's mind, which clearly it isn't. On the other hand if someone downloads a tune, listens to it once, doesn't like it, and then deletes it, maybe this is fair use, akin to trying out a record in the store before buying it. The actual boundries can be gray, but Palladium will make them clear and hard, and they won't favor the end users.
AMD is already firmly on the bandwagon. That was the real quid pro quo for them getting XP for the Hammers (Jerry blowing smoke at CKK was only a minor subplot). Microsoft is pushing this vigorously and rewritting their entire codebase to incorporate Palladium. Folks, this is very nearly a done deal whose real purpose is to replace the current copyright system with an absolutely enforceable DRM system. BTW, the R in DRM is the IP vendor and /or content providers rights. That is what's being protected here, after all.
All this hardware authentication will slow down most programs because of all the extra steps needed to authenticate whether a program can run or not. I think that the Palladium free Hardware will most likely be 10-22% faster than the ones equiped with this. How do I know this? Let's just say a little bird told me. :-)
Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope! :-P
Wish I had the points.
Rights management only restricts you with respect to rights managed media.
Those that truly believe in an open culture (or at least a less restricted one) can create one... sans rights management. Why do we need the latest cookie cutter pop rock? Or the latest fill-in-the-blanks action movie?
We are creative. We can create. We don't have to buy into the world they're creating. We can create our own. ("They" = those that would assert undue control over they way we... live.)
Yes, it'd be a better place if everyone played nice. But some aren't. So screw them. The only power they have is the power we give them. It wouldn't even be a "boycott", because that implies under ideal circumstances we want the rights managed garbage they'll be shoveling.
...
Well, there it is. Unless the lowest energy state really is absolute greed. In which case, it doesn't matter how many cultures you (re)create, they'll always drift back to the one we have now.
Hrumph... that's what I get for reading 1984 yesterday. But I think perhaps there's at least a kernel of truth in there.
Hey, I doubt that IBM's new desktop Power4 chip will have DRM... If Apple isn't going to use the Power4, maybe IBM might be planning to sell Linux desktops with Power4... Big Blue Penguin!
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
subject line says it all.
Sheesh you didn't think of it, ha! (just for the lamo filter)
Went here:
= eb us+feedback_sidelink&
http://www.intel.com/eBusiness/feedback.htm?iid
And posted sent in this:
Palladium support in your products? NO THANK YOU. I promise that I and anyone I have influence over (including all of my clients) will never purchase a machine powered by a Palladium-based chip.
Circuit City Thought Div-x would be a great technology. It was DOA. I will do everything in my power to make sure this one is too.
Thank you.
Oops! So much for a "cheap," "open," "non-proprietary," architecture! Enjoy your digital chains, suckers! What will Linux people do?
I came across a neat web site that displayed photos in one large, horizontally scrollable window.
While I liked the wilderness scenes, what really interested me was how this was done.
So I right clicked to get to 'view source'.
Instead, I saw a message that right clicking was disabled in that window.
Don't give Billy ideas for FREE!
FPGAs
In the dystopia, those would be available only to licensed and bonded developers.
Will I retire or break 10K?
What the government is having a hard time doing, keeping an eye on all of us, the Wintel alliance is going to do for them. After the PIII id disaster they will move cautiously at first. Then, once there is a critical mass of people dependant upon the new features of the computers, they can move over to the new systems completely. Our only real hope is Free Software / Open Source! If the businesses that are deploying it right now realize that it may not work on future versions of hardware then they may demand systems that it can work on. If they don't then their investment in these new systems will be a temporary thing as they will have to migrate back to the proprietary world to use the hardware of the future. After that has happened it will be an easy matter for government to get their hands on everything.
First they will propose a bill so far out of line that everyone will cry foul. Second there will be public outrage; that will be followed by mettings, discussions, and finally amendments to make the bill less draconian. They will amend the bill and then say "see how much we compromised?" In reality they will end up with exactly what they wanted from the beginning. And we will be stuck with exactly what we feared: government having the ability to know everything that we have done through one simple subpeona. And now days it doesn't even take a judge to sign it - just a Federal Prosecuter.
For my part I will buy the biggest baddest machine that I can a generation behind the new "secure Computing" systems so that I can have a sense of security - and then NOT upgrade for as long as possible. It could even become the most valuable possession that I leave for my kids. Now there is a scary thought. And people didn't think that we would ever have the two way TVs that George Orwell predicted in "1984".
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
What ever happenned tot he Processor Serial Number (PSN) that Intel put in the P3?
Is it in the P4? Is it in any AMD chips?
Damn... All the new power supplies are CBDTPA compliant.
Bad joke. I thought it would be obvious that I didn't imply the entire Cartesian product of {power supplies, storage devices, other devices} and {obsolescence, CBDTPA}. For example, if I had an old AT-style motherboard, it'd be pretty hard to find new power supplies for it because most mobo manufacturers have migrated to either the ATX configuration or the slightly different DellTX configuration.
What I really meant was that after a couple decades (or sooner if Sen. Hollings gets his way), PCI, ATA, and other PC hardware standards will become obsolete, and you won't be able to find parts for your pre-ban computer because few to no manufacturers will still make them. For example, anybody know where I can get a drive to read 8" floppy disks?
Will I retire or break 10K?
LOTS of companies manufacture CPU's without DRM
;->
IBM comes to mind
--Richard
Does anyone see what is happening? MS who already is a CONVICTED MONOPOLIST, will have a new Monopoly! HARDWARE!
MS will control the software. MS will control the hardware.
You will NOT control it. You are UNTRUSTED. Where does this not make sense? Sure it will take some time, but it WILL happen. Government is firmly and happily swimming in Bill Gates back pocket. They have already shown their inabillity/ineptitude/disinterest/conflict of interest concerning this matter.
Linux, open source, fair use and civil rights are centered in the crosshairs of MS's TOTAL SOLUTION.
Thank you. The above capitalized words are for the Moderators who obviously don't get the message behind my first post. Everyone else, have a Palladium day!
He's not taking away your rights.
Hollywood is taking away your rights.
A few large companies have collectively monopolized movie distribution is the US. They want to keep this monopoly by creating barriers to entry into the market.
Technology is making it easy to make better movies cheaper. I can got to a story and buy a really decent digital video camera and dvd burner for less than $5000. Then I can go ahead and make my own movie. Sure, a can't do special effects as good as the ones in the matrix yet, but don't forget moore's law. Soon I will be able to.
The MPAA and it's members seek to keep anyone from competing with their monopoly by creating laws such as the DMCA, which prevents you from making content viewable on their content delivery devices.
The laws they seek to pass in the name of preventing piracy, have nothing to do with preventing piracy. You don't need DeCSS to pirate DVDs. You don't need palladium in hardware to get security. A software layer could provide the same level of security. The reason MS wants palladium in hardware is so that they can block you from running anything they don't approve of, allowing them to expand their monopoly.
Whining about hackers and software pirates is only done you get people like you, who don't understand the actual motivation for their actions. They know that kid who downloaded some movie off the internet was probably never going to buy it. They'll claim that they lost $20 he would have spent on the DVD and multiply that by the number of nodes on gnutella to get some staggering figure of annual losses due to piracy, but it's not reality.
These laws are all about getting control. When CDs came out, they were cheaper to produce than cassettes, yet the cost to the consumer was higher. They could only do this because they had thighter control over the production of CDs than they did of cassettes.
It's all about getting more control and jacking up prices once you have it. Once every PC can only run MS code, what's to stop them from charging $1000 per user, per year. Certainly not the government, which would never dare interfere with the "free" market or offend one of the biggest spenders on political power.
Life is too short to proofread.
OK, they might have a crappy FPU and be well behind Intel and AMD at the moment, but surely this is a chance for VIA to stick it to The Man (as they have done with DDR mobos) and clean up?
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
A huge unemployment rise in the Tech community. Right now, the lack of DRM enables many to create, change, and do things fast and simple. This enables new products to take hold and enjoy.
Where would winamp be? Where will xmms be? Where will all the nice 3rd party products be?
Sigh, I need to go back to college and get a History degree, because CS will be history.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20020909 S0098
Again, sweet jeebus.
After open-source software, it seems the need will arise within the coming years for open hardware. I know of some small projects going on (mostly old atari/amiga freaks tinkering away) but with the current direction of digital rights, it seems that coupled with open hardware is the only logical way to guarantee the future of open computing (to have a system on which you can do what you want with your hardware).
Is anybody aware of any serious projects in this direction ?
What else could be better to combat palladium?
At the moment you can get round this nonsense - just load the page with javascript disabled, and then view source. (or wget --user-agent="Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98)" )
With a TCPA PC you will either be unable to decrypt the page (in non-trusted mode) or be running a "trusted" browser that really enforces these restrictions (they'll probably force you to view the popups too. yech!)
As for what "trusted" means, see Questions 24 and 25 of Ross Anderson's FAQ
Since Microsoft owns the patent on the "DRM OS," does that mean if Hollings' legislation comes to fruition Windows (with Palladium) will be the only legal OS?
Because the moment your unrecognizable aka untrusted data hits the Fritz'd computer, it's flagged as untrustworthy. Will not run, may not even send if the media/software cartels manage to get their acts together that much.
Essentially we wind up with an untrusted net filled with the hardcore users that runs separate from the trusted net. Almost sounds good - at least, until the untrusted net starts getting split into smaller and smaller networks as major routers move to DRM technology.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Or, another way, Palladium is commercial versions of things like FIPS cards.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
If you have a file that will only work if authorized from a server, couldn't a packet sniffer get the info the server is passing? Then you simulate the server interaction whenever you want to use the file.
This would probably require a seperate computer pretending to be the server on the internet, but shouldn't that work?
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
I understood future software will be able to check if the processor is palladium enabled.
:)
So... why not write software that does NOT run if palladium IS enabled ? If e.g. edonkey and such would not run on palladium cpu's, few gamers will
buy them at all! And no one else needs more cpu-power than the current maximum...
One could forge some positive logo for such
software, like "supports NDRM!" or "NDRM inside" (NDRM = No DRM).
just my 2c
PS: offtopic: btw. does the US really trade "security" for a more and more facist state ? I dont live in the US, so its just an impression from the outside based on the latest laws & news...
Why would CNN refuse to allow me to visit their website? Why the hell is it there if I can't visit it? Its stupid, how does one make money with Palladium? If its not making money its not going to happen, and blocking me from CNN.com is not making money...
My suggestion is that we all write letters to Intel and other that have this feature, and ask them what other manefacturers they can recommend that doesn't include that crippling technology.
Write letters to manefacturers that doesn't include this technology and ask if they think
that they will be able to cope withe the expected
increase of demand for DRM free technology.
Write letters to your politicians give them reason that this is bad for democracy and consumer rights.
If and when the technology hits the stores, be difficult customers ask for a lot of support due to the new system. I.e. make them expensive to
sell.
Remind your boss that DRM makes in house development of software close to impossible.
Make sure that your boss knows that this system will cost him money and hazzle. Remind him that DRM systems will increase the cost of software
due to certification costs.
And most likely these costs will kill minor software companies, and that as a result competition will be less intense. And the software prices will rise.
Remind people around you that X-box security was broken, and that DRM will give them false sence of security, as viruses could be injected to the "secure" Palladium environment through such boxes.
God is REAL! Unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Doesn't this have potential to restrict my freedom of speech? If "censorware" does this, can't "MS-onlyware" serve the same function? If I can't access political candidates web sites because I'm not enabling DRDenialware doesn't this have a chilling effect?
EFF, you listening?
firstname.lastname@intel.com
[Occasionally, the employee's middle initial is
included in the e-mail addr.] I sent a polite
message to Otellini using the above format and it
did not bounce. I told Paul I would never buy
a processor that incorporated Palladium
technology.
hey,
ok so the next step is what to do about this??? I mean I read about stuff like this and it makes my blood boil, and now I think about letting everyone I know about this. I'm also thinkin' about writing John C. Dvorak (yeah he's not the greatest, but he writes for PCMag, and I like his style) to get the public aware of this? Is this not a good idea? To let people know that soon they will lose their rights? If a bunch of people start listenin' to geeks like us, they're going to know that somethings up. Yeah, alot of people are not the greatest or smartest, but they will listen to knowlegable people like us who know that when we something that is bad, we will let people know about it. We should all do something. Write your friends and family. Tell others. Email PC Mag and get some of the editors on it... Is my idea ok?
I support publik eduscatation!
Anyone else notice point 18 of Ross Anderson's FAQ? It notes that TCPA and Palladium can be used to circumvent the GPL. TCPA enhanced version of open source software (i.e. TCPA GNU/Linux) would have to be certified by the TCPA consortium. Such certification would cost a substantial amount of money, which means businesses could do it but individuals couldn't. This means that corporations would be able to steal open source code without breaking copyright law. The source would still be free, but that would mean nothing because any modified version of the source would require revalidation, making it somewhat worthless in a practical context. Microsoft could even open-source windows media player with absolutely no fear because only certified systems would be allowed to access the content necessary to make wmp useful.
This isn't only scary because it is a disincentive for open source development. Think of its use as a smokescreen. We all yell "uncompetative business practices" because Microsoft and Intel have a stranglehold on the computing market maintained by DRM and "trusted" computing, but they say, "what are you talking about, all of our software is open source." Also, note that it is going to be hard to brand this uncompetative in any case because TCPA is an open standard maintained by a consortium, which might more aptly be called a cartel (see Anderson's point 20).
The GPL was created with the assumption that open source meant open computing. How do we protect ourselves in an environment where protecting the source code may not be enough?
Didn't the PIII have a built in CPU ID value that was allowed to be turned off and on in the BIOS? I really hope they choose to do something similar with this generation, especially since this is a hot topic and could theoretically be overturned through politics/buyer education, whatnot..
If the DRM stuff prevents people from writing programs that require DRM to run, where are they going to find enough experienced programmers to write all those DRM programs? I suggest we nominate DRM for a Darwin award.
As I'm told, Palladium is hard to break because it works as follows:
Every Palladium chip has its own private and public key. It'll tell anyone the public key, but it never outputs the private key. When you download a program or a movie or something from the internet, you send your public key to the server, and it uses that to encrypt it.
The encrypted file is then sent to your computer. Now that it's been encrypted with your chip's public key, the only way to decrypt it is with the private key, which is inside the chip itself and not available to anyone, even the user.
Thus, unless there's a serious design flaw (like with some DVD players), it'd be very hard to crack the protection, because said protection involves strong encryption with a key you can't access. People have been trying unsuccessfully to break strong encryption for a long time now.
Probably too late for most to read this but I have not seen this mentioned yet -- one huge thing missing that I see will happen -- e-commerce. Why would a company limit e-commerce to palladium users?
Here is the scenario (happened with DR DOS):
Microsoft mass deploys palladium in OEM boxes (as usual) As the user base grows, they issue service packs that have a ton of security fixes, and in this service pack they enable an internet security warning. The code is back ported to W2k and WXP, and anytime business on the web is transacted the warning appears. WARNING: You are executing an insecure transaction that cannot be guaranteed with this vendor as the vendor is not Digitally certified with Microsoft to perform secure transactions. For those without palladium, they will get a warning that tells them they must upgrade to palladium. The number of users calling in about this warning will spark management to get the site fully palladium compliant. This will happen slowly, and eventually all the warnings will disappear and you will not even be able to use anything not certified.
Don't believe it can happen? I hope not, but MS has done similar things many times, (Christmas beta release in Windows 95 beta to destroy DR DOS) It gives MS the ability to force upgrades through security (see the recent admittal to the insecure nature of windows to set the stage) and locks out any platform that will not use DRM enabled security. Of course that security costs money and certification costs money, and local recompiles would cost money -- eliminating free software. There are many benefits to this approach, and I don't yet see how to stop it other than educate the consumer.
Any ideas?
Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
As a resident of Madison, WI, I would like to hereby denounce Intel for implicitly making me a representative of their product, the Madison processor. I would rather not be part of a marketing ploy. Thank you. That is all.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
All - DRM integration in the products we all use has been happening for a while. MS is just continuing its tried and true work-ethic: take from others and market it like it was their own idea. Starting about two years ago, a company has integrated DRM technology in Adobe Acrobat, AOL, the Rio MP3 player, Soundblaster cards, and motherboard chipsets, among others. This company has by far the majority of DRM patents, and is currently suing MS for patent infringement on a number of different issues. http://www.intertrust.com/main/home/press/2002/020 624_broaden.html
As they recently signed a deal with Sony, don't expect them to be purchased by MS - infact it should be interesting to watch the lawsuit.
http://www.intertrust.com/main/home/press/2002/020 523_sony.html
I'm kinda longing for a quiet, nice durable keyboard, RISC personal computer running BRiX.
The "microcomputers" of the early eighties were great -- something like that but still powerful enough to run emacs and ogg theora.
Those of you in countries like Venezuela who have or are considering Open Source to protect your national security: Palladium/TCPA will do more to keep you dependent on proprietary solutions than any draconian licensing scheme. Imagine all your .DOC files in encrypted format, such that you become totally dependent on proprietary software with NO WAY OUT. This technology is your enemy. If you are considering mandating Open Source, you may want to consider mandating Open Hardware as well.
It's going to be quite strange for awhile, thinking of mainland China as a bastion of Liberty.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
We could kill all the CEOs on the top 100 evil companies.
Pretty soon I should be able to buy my computer under a Dell EULA agreement in conjuction with M$ and Intel EULA. That way I won't actually own anything I will just be sending my money and subjecting myself to the DCMA.
Wow, a thousand bucks for a machine that I can't open, decide what/how to play any content and subject myself to fines and jail time if I do.
If I'm really lucky I will get to pay for all this even if I opt out and try to get a linux box as well.
I can't wait.
w00t! H00ray for well informed parents!
Are there (or in the future might there be) any movements striving to produce open-source chips and/or hardware systems? It would be truly useful for there to be super-easy cookbook directions that perhaps 5% of the population could use turn easily procured off-the-shelf parts into a linux-booting general purpose computer. Anything like this around?
.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Technology is too much important to leave it in the hands of a little group of corporate sharks. Both hardware and software should be open source.
I am one of those people who are greatly concerned about these developments. I believe that they restrict freedoms that have been protected under the Constitution. That whole discussion is much bigger than I can articulate, but I wanted to provide context to show that I am completely opposed to Palladium.
(On the other hand, I think 95% of everything being made in Hollywood and Nashville is utter crap. I don't even have cable or a DVD player. I get 3 or 5 channels, depending on the weather, and rent a movie now and again. I just don't want what they're pandering.)
All of that being said, the example above of someone wanting to burn a DVD as a backup is perfect. That's a legitimate use of the technology that stands to be obviated by these new laws/technologies. (Notice the big scheme unfolding such that they made breaking DRM illegal, then started forcing it down our throats. Don't say that Microsoft and the MPAA/RIAA aren't learning fast...)
However, this is SUCH a legitimate use of such technology, that it won't go unchecked. If Microsoft and the media companies make it illegal to make backups or personal home movies on DVD's, you can bet that someone else will invent a device to get the same job done.
Don't tell me that "it'll have DRM too." You're right; it will. That's not the point. The legitimate users will get hardware that will do the job. The companies that make that hardware will tailor their implementation of DRM to coexist with Microsoft's, yet still allow what you need to do.
Also, don't tell me that Microsoft won't allow such things. You're right; they won't. But backlash and fear of actually having the government instigate a lawsuit with some Q#)(%&!@#)$(& TEETH will force them to allow enough of this to be done that real, legitimate use will still happen.
And that money won't be flowing Microsoft's way.
And that will cause Microsoft to loosen restrictions on the technology.
In other words, it won't be as bad as people think it will be, to start out with (myself included), and I think that, in turn, it will be prevented from being as bad as people think in the long run. I think you'll have another DRM "drive" that plays protected media, and a burnable drive that will do anything BUT play and record such things.
--
I'm David Krider, and that's why I use Linux.
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
I'm 20, I'm in university.
I pirate everything, movies, music, software, whatever.
I haven't bought or rented a movie for the last 2 years. (Queue it in kazaa, its there within a couple of days
I haven't bought a CD for the last 3 years. (Stream it from kazaa)
I haven't really bought software ever. (Well, maybe paid a friend $1 per CD for it)
If anyone I know asks me, I'll give them a copy of a movie or software that I have on CD or just send it to them over ICQ, and I know a lot of people who will do the same thing. Now I realize that this is wrong and everything but I don't want Paladium to go through because of it. The reason its being implemented is because of people like me, and I think there are a lot of us. I know no one in this slashdot crowd will admit to using their computer for anything but playing a DVD in linux or using mp3s to back up a CD that they bought, but from my experience, that's not what a lot of people do. I don't think its just university students either, I've given win2k and office and a lot of other software to relatives, or to my parents friends, people who will typically pay for the stuff. My mom gets me to burn CDs for her now and she doesn't even know how to use a computer. When so many people are getting something for free, it causes a problem with the economy and Palladium is the only solution that I (and I guess the industry) can see that will work. So I guess my point is, don't blame big business for taking away your rights, because people like me are forcing them to do it. Blame the pirates, I'm not denying that its our fault. The Going Concern Principle of accounting states that a corporation must act in a way that will maintain their business as a profitable entity, and prevent it from going bankrupt. That is all these companies are doing, the violation of the rights of the slashdot crowd are just an unfortunate side effect.
5. The MS monopoly (and Intel's and AMD's respective complicity in that monopoly) can make sure that Palladium is available almost everywhere at once.
I think you meant to say "almost nowhere at once." How many DVD payers are out there that don't support this? M$, Intel, and AMD are not going to replace my DVD player.
Due to wanting a computer to play games on I agreed to have a ready made Fujitsu-Siemens with an Intel Pentium 3 866 chip in it. Here's my problem, because this was the fastest computer in the house it also became my main work machine for graphics, typing and music. The first thing I did infact was upgrade the sound card. However, I know wish to continue playing games on it and upgrade the processor. Any suggestions as to what I can do to upgrade without replacing the motherboard or supporting Intel? My entire CD collection is recorded onto my hard disk so keeping my fair use rights as intact as possible, or keeping them intact for the future by not surporting Intel would make me happy. Any Suggestions for me? Thanks
I have almost stopped listening to music, watching TV (probably 20 hours this year) and movies (2 so far) and have noticed a marked improvement in my qualilty of life.
The 'Car' magazine columnist LJK Setright once wrote that TV is like a sewer going thru one's living room -- turning the TV off has really made me realize how correct he was.
Hi all, I'm currently a volunteer for ReclaimDemocracy.org, mainly to try and fight things such as this. What would be really helpful is a write up, in normal person speak, about what the repercussions of this Microsoft/Intel/Entertainment Industry power grab will have on the common man. I need analysis on why this technology means you won't be able to share copies of video of your kids' first steps or words with his grandparents, that this technology means you won't be able to freely produce creative works (from code to music to pictures) using your own paid for equipment and share it with others - things like that. Again the goal is to get this out to the rest of the citizens of the U.S., and perhaps the rest of the world, so it needs to be in terms and phrases that the layman will understand. There have been many good articles linked in previous comments but they are a bit too technical for the common folk. I'm offering an outlet to start reaching the non-slashdot crowd to alert them to the fact that their Rights will be circumvented in a way that will damage their Freedoms behind their backs if we allow this kind of thing to continue. Please respond here if you think you can do such a thing and we'll take if from there. Or just go ahead and post it for all to see.
'nuff said :-)
Aj tak ste vsetci kokoti, vobec necitate odbornu literaturu a tliachate tu blbosti jak v krcme pri pive! Pozrite si radsej toto:
1 02 860378601578&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=cryptography&m=
(Translation: You're all idiots talking bs in the local pub! Go read some constructive discussion on this subject, like the above thread.)
I mean, they named their CPU's "XP" for chissakes.
I've always hated apple, but if M$ keeps pushing in this direction and PC hardware follows, they may have a convert (unless they pull this crap to)
Seriously though, this might be apples chance to have a resonable marketshare if they play their cards right.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Would anyone be surprised if motherboard manufacturers added in little 'easter eggs' to the bios/jumpers that allowed you to circumvent Palladium CPU code? There are pages of codes/mods you can do to U.S. DVD players that allow them to function as region free players. Why wouldn't they? What's going to stop them? I realize that in theory they're supposed to be in on the deal, but that didn't stop the DVD player makers, and I'll bet the scrutiny from Hollywood was just as close as the scrutiny from Microsoft will be.
Just an opinion, could be wrong blah blah blah...
the code only needs to be checked when the programs are first loaded, not all the time.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Now as far as personal computing goes, why the hell should YOU care what I do with my computer? If I'm making illegal copies of movies or anything else, that's my business (and that of the authorities who arrest me ...) not yours. You can stay in your little happy utopic world where everyone bows to you because you have a fancy calculator.
Personal computing has brought prices down and great advancemence in software and hardware. I am completely impressed with the entire way that the computing industry has turned out in the past 20 years and look forward to the next 20. As far as hardware based DRM, why would this be a benifit. It would be like buying a piece of hardware that is purposefully disabled ... Ex, you go to the store and buy a NEW gun. This gun has the ability to be loaded, but will not actually fire a bullet, instead it just makes a loud bang. Now this is because of course of the large amount of violent crimes being done with guns today and is just for the safety of everyone around us. Would it fly? Hell no ... because people buy guns to do with what they want and most gun owners don't like people telling them what to do, hence the whole them having a gun factor.
Anyways, if you liked the 70's so much, TOUGH it's over and times are constantly changing, get over it.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
Okay, this is something I don't understand about this proposed scheme. Let's say media server A wants to send content to client B. A of course asks B to confirm that B is in secure mode, so that the owners of the content about to be transmitted can sleep well at night knowing that the recipient has paid. What prevents B from running a nonsecure client/OS and reponding "yeah sure, palladium enabled" and receiving the content and storing it unencumbered?
My first thought would be some sort of cryptographic challenge/response would be used to signal this fact. But client B is totally under our control, since we've disabled the secure mode of the CPU, or we're running a non-DRM OS, or we have a legacy CPU, or whatever. So now it appears that we're back to the same situation as the content scrambling system on DVDs. There's some secret key or challenge/response protocol imbedded in the secure OS that's supposed to be running on client B. But we've hacked that software, found the key, whatever. As long as we have the binaries to this OS, someone will eventually find the secret key and that will be the end of that.
In short, how could this form of digital rights management ever work? The situation is almost exactly analogous to DVDs, as far as I can tell -- you have the "trusted" clients (consumer DVD players -> Microsoft's future palladium OS) and the "untrusted" clients (standard PCs with DVD ROMs -> standard PCs running non-DRM OS.)
How does this protect anything? Why go to all the trouble?
If intel's goin drm then FUCK THEM. I'll be on amd, if amd is gonna go drm then FUCK THEM TOO. I got my current amd an when the opterons come around, they wont have drm in em from what i've heard. i'll go for an 8way sys an use it FOR THE REST OF MY DAYS. I wont upgrade if all there is, is drm. they think if you remove other choices they'll have to choose you, well got news for ya assholes, i choose no one. I'll look into making my own chips if thats what it takes. dont need to mass produce em or nothin, may cost a few bucks, or few bucks with zero's added on but still. peace of mind that it'll be fast, drm free, an not a cent will go to those pussy bastards is all i need.
at least any CPU maker that cares about sales for future devices. media companies are going to design shitloads of things needing DRM to make hacking harder. microsoft is making palladium support mandatory for any hardware their OS runs on.
don't worry. they're -features- and they don't do anything useful without an operating system to force them to. you'll still be able to run your favorite OS on these chips.
If Linux doesn't support the Intel feature, then nothing has changed. If they use it to help prevent viruses, that a good thing, right? If you're using Windows and you don't like a particular new drm file format for movies, music, etc. boycott it. If Windows won't let you run your old cd ripping software, boycott Windows, and use Linux instead.
Vote for Pedro
The media circus zoo that is... just check out how the article on msnbc touts the new chips as a way to "adress problems such as computer viruses and tampering by malicious hackers."
Why not run something like WindowMaker [windowmaker.org] or BlackBox [sourceforge.net]? I've used both on a P-120 and it was tolerable as long as no processor-hogs other than X were running. KDE and GNOME are not the only window managers available!
I agree. I used a system with 16 MB RAM and GNOME without any problem till very recently. As long as you don't multitask that much you should be OK. I could even play mp3s. The hard disk would crank away for a minute once you tried to launch a new application though. If you have about 128 MB of swap you should never hit OOM.
Yep. its pretty simple really. only you cant see it.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
What if you are able to develop a site/software that wont run or be viewed on a paladium enabled computer on purpose? Kind of like a rebel internet and rebel SW that spits in the face of DRM. What about using the Paladium technology to keep the SW developers and Media companies out by issueing digital certificates only to your userbase? I can forsee communities of warez traders and pirates operating on their own locked down networks (kind of like how Hotline/Carracho networks work) using the very technology that is trying to stop that activity.
Sound waves should be free!
Since the only processors Dell ships are Intel, I will be finding a new vendor for all of our systems. Palladium? DRM? Fuck off.
That would be soooo funny because they're main arguement is that they're processor is better than Intel's!
That would be soooo funny because they are main arguement is that they are processor is better than Intel's!
Doesn't make much fucking sense, does it? Christ, it's not a HARD thing to remember.
How ironic.
See Palladium - Greek Mythology
Redundancy is good; triple redundancy is twice as good! - Me.
fuck. we're all fucked.
time to start killing the real people behind these corporate decisions.
There are these things called 'fair use rights' that you are allowed by law.
Correct. Fair use allows freedom from sufferin the penalties for copyright infringement in particular situations. However, it says nothing about legally requiring constraints on technical devices (like *not* having copy protection).
If you want to go after something in this arena, you should have gone after the DMCA, which *does* alter the legal bounds of copyright law, not Palladium.
This new technology gives copyright holders power that is not offered to them by copyright law.
Maybe not, but it doesn't violate what rights are granted you under copyright law either. Hell, copyright law doesn't give me the right to eat Cheddar cheese, but it doesn't prevent me from doing so.
You loose freedom by the adoption of this technology.
Well, *I* don't lose any freedoms. If someone can't get Max Payne for free, no skin off my back, you know?
Whether or not you see this technology direct affecting you in the near future it should not be supported.
I'm not supporting it. I'm not going out of my way to help it, but neither am I going to fight it.
Perhaps it will upset you when they use the technology to make all future entertainment media pay-per-view/listen.
Maybe they will. They'll charge what the market can bear, and some people want pay per view. I don't -- I rarely watch TV, and wouldn't dream of getting, say, HBO. So, because there are markets of people that are willing to pay more than I am, there will always be goods that I will not have available in the media world. That's true right now.
But so what? If a media company starts charging $50 a view for the X-Files, they'll go out of business. Media companies will quickly find what the general public is comfortable with, and stop there. Going any higher would literally be suicidal.
May we never see th
You don't seem to understand. If Palladium becomes a de facto standard, virtually all content will require a Palladium machine. Microsoft will monopolize the gateway to that content. If you want to read the news, listen to music, or watch movies, you will have to use Palladium. Blind people will be unable to read electronic books because we can't encrypt braille. Search engines will not be able to read web sites. Instead, they will index based on whatever keywords the author tells them to.
Palladium is a direct attack on Open Source Software (OSS). Sure, in theory, OSS can process DRM protected content, but first it has to be signed. If you change the software, it will not work with protected content unless the changes are signed. This flies in the face of software freedom. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the signing authority will sign future versions of OSS. Even if the signing authority signs OSS, it will require a lengthy and expensive auditing process, slowing development and artificially inflating the price.
The Palladium scheme allows Microsoft to decide who can, or can not create trusted software. If it's anything like the DVD-CCA, the opportunity will cost $112,000. After spending the $112,000, the author then has to follow whatever draconian rules Microsoft puts forth or their license will be revoked. This is clearly intended to create an artificial barrier to entry and cut off competition. It also gives Microsoft power over hardware manufacturers and software companies. Based on Microsoft's history, I have no doubt they will use their signing power as leverage when dealing with hardware manufacturers and software developers. If a hardware manufacturer or software company fails to comply with Microsoft's demands, they will encounter roadblocks when signing their drivers and software.
Palladium also sets up a key authority to control the master keys. If you want your content protected, you have to get permission from the key authority. Rest assured, the price and restrictions will be well within reach of most media companies, but out of reach for most independent publishers. This is just another artificial barrier to cut off competition. You can also be certain that the price scheme will be more economical for large publishers than for small ones, thus encouraging consolidation.
Palladium includes the ability to revoke licenses for content, thus allowing the government to outlaw content through court rulings, legislation, executive orders, FCC rules, etc (just like the Bush administration removed content from libraries after 9/11). The system will also allow the media to 'erase' historical news reports (Texaco get accused of accounting fraud, so they pay the media to erase news reports about Enron), and revoke licenses during times of national tragedy, similar to Clear Channel's post 9/11 blacklist (don't want people hearing John Lennon's Imagine when they're supposed to be clamoring for revenge).
By acquiring a Palladium machine, you are helping to entrench Palladium as a de facto standard, making it easier for content companies to wrap all their content in DRM. If you support Palladium, you will be responsible for this.
Imagine someone writes a program, and has it digitally signed by (whoever signs them).
This program is a PC emulator for the PC, which reads arbitrary executable files as data, and executes whichever statements are in the file via a huge switch statement.
Would something like that allow one to run unsigned (or modified, checksum-failing) programs?
Just a thought.
If you don't like something about Intel's new chip, don't buy it.
If AMD does the same thing, don't buy it.
There are plenty of other chips out there. We're geeks, most of us don't use store bought systems anyhow. We build are own. If it means a little added work to get a working SuperH or umpteen multiprocessor MIPS system or a little more money to get a Sun or Apple or SGI box we'll adapt.
If for some reason AMD and Intel insist of boxing the truly computer literate out of their market so be it. I'll wager that within a year of the day you can't buy a DRM-free box in a store there will be a company started by one of us selling a system made from the most obscure damnedest DRM-free chipset they could find.
We may be heading toward a situation where "computers" that the average person use are some TV-like idiot box and "computers" that we use are hacked together from kits like they used to be. I don't think thats neccesarily a bad thing, and I certainly don't think we need to lose sleep over it.
Hasn't Intel floated this particular asinine idea before? Anyone else remember the proposal to put a serial number into their CPUs?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
A better analogy is that Palladium is the gun, and DRM is the ammo. Two seperate things, and sure you can use a gun without ammo but smacking someone across the head with it, but the ammo requires the gun, and the main purpose of the gun is to be used with the ammo.
Palladium in and of itself standalone might *technically* be non-DRM, just as a gun can *technically* be used without ammo, but it is clear to most of us what both were designed for. Palladium designed to show Microsoft's love for Hollywood (hoping for love in return), Palladium being designed with DRM in mind and as a main purpose, and a gun being designed with ammo in mind and it's main purpose being to use the ammo.
You're really splitting hairs over the technical definations imho.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
As has been said over and over again, technology is not the weakest point in a security system. To circumvent a technologically advanced security system, you attack the people who work with the system. If someone wants to circumvent Palladium, he won't kill Bill Gates, instead he will do something similar to what Bruce Schneier called "the perfect crime".
In Bruce Schneier's "perfect crime", a thief kidnaps a child, then holds the child for ransom until his parents publish a newspaper ad with the keys for a bunch. This attack would work for any non-material reward, be it digital cash, company secrets, or cryptographic keys.
One way to attack the Palladium system, is to kidnap key figures in the DRM world, and hold them ransom until the master keys are published in a popular newspaper. Or, if the kidnapper is selfish, have the master keys encrypted with a public key (supplied with the ransom note), and the encrypted master key published.
Once the thief obtains his reward, he sets the victims free, presumably without any way to trace the kidnappers.
The DRM folks will have to wait until new keys have been embedded in everyone's products before they can start encrypting their content with a new key. In the meantime, anyone with the old key can sign any content and software he wants.
Somebody aught to start a company designed for this NOW...I'd say someone like Red Hat take it on...and build on it....or else we get a group of companies that refuse to ever use DRM technologies to make their equipment fully compatible and so on...Basically, start one now so the technology keeps current, and gets off the ground before the CBDTPA *potentially* hits so we can buy the stuff before it takes effect.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
1) IIRC big businesses ARE the number 1 buyer of computers in the world.
/. or Tom's Hardware Guide mentioned that AMD was on this TCPA comittee. So I doubt they are gonna say "Fuck you m$"
2) More than likey other company's will not make non DRM compliant hardware because they actually WANT TO SELL IT. As I understand the situation it COULD be possible to make DRM CPU's disable non compliant hardware due to not having the sacred hardware key.
3) As I understand it, the CPU could refuse to load a non DRM approved OS. I think this is the *Nix guys current fears about this technology. I seriously doubt there are enough people using *Nix to justify AMD, VIA, etc, making real easy to use working plug N chug versions of linux and making thier CPU's NONDRM compliant. If they refused DRM then they'd be on thier own to fight M$/Intel and I doubt sales would overcome the software development, advertising, and education required to make Linux a viable desktop option. I for one would not buy an AMD/VIA PC that could only run Linux cause Palladium said no DRM-no install. Linux isn't developed enough for that yet though I hope one day it is. Also either
This kind of shit erks me beyond belief but they are monopolies and history so far has proved the gov'ment ain't gonna do squat about it. I/we also can't just keep using our old hardware either. Stuff break especially HDD's and ATAPI devices. No manufacturer is gonna keep making this old stuff for us. People want the latest greatest stuff with the shinest eye candy available and they don't care if it "works fine". You don't see new Commodore 64's, Amiga's, or Atari's around anymore do ya? Non up-to-date PCs will fall under the same problem. Soon our stockpile of old parts will dry up until only scarce quantities exist and only a few have them. Classic cars have this same problem--It's damned hard to find parts for Straight 12 Dusenbergs anymore. Only a few still exist. Eventually only a few PCs will exist.
I can go on and on about this but I'm tired of typing and you're tired of reading. So goodnight.
Ebay Ad in the year 2010
Non DRM computer built in 2003, top specs for the time, used very little by my grandma.
bidding begins at $25,000
It's the lack of aftermath in that case that makes me think yes, absolutely, they will try exactly that. They haven't exactly been quaking in their boots since then, have they? They have plenty of support from the politicians and a public that's largely unaware of the issues. Why wouldn't they try it?
I suspect most people got tired very quickly of deciding and just accept all cookies. Now site designers say, "Oh, people don't mind, we never get complaints. Most people have them enabled anyway." They don't complain because once you give in you never know how many cookies you're getting (except by the increase in your spam percentage maybe).
Palladium on the Web will work the same way. Lots of people will leave it off at first, but when half the sites they want to visit (including things like online banking, for example) require PD to be switched on for entry, they'll be worn down into leaving it on all the time.
I am wondering if DRM/Palladium will also prevent perfectly ordinary backups, frex refusing to back up "untrusted files", whatever those might be -- such as data files *you* created (let's say for the sake of argument that YOU own the copyright on said files) with an "untrusted" program??
Anyone want to expostulate on this??
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
If I am right about this, building in "support" for this palladium chip does not mean it is implemented straight away! It means that producers of mainboards now have the *option* to use a paladium chip on their mobo's. Since there will always be a significant market for non-crippled machines, there will allways be mobo's without this 'feature'... That is the beauty of having competitors... as long as there is market for something, it will exist. You just will have to be a bit more picky when choosing your mobo from now on...
At least that's what I think...
Delgul
You do not own the intellectual property inside the CPU's microcode, the machine's BIOS or the OS. You have an implicit license to use it.
Already hardware devices are shipping with shrinkwrap license agreements; some Compaq machines, for example, do, and opening the packaging signifies acceptance even if you don't open any of the CDs that came with it. Depending on UCITA, the courts and the legislative clout of Hollywood, this may be used to enforce a "beneficial" copyright-protecting Microsoft OS monopoly on Intel/AMD hardware.
The Fritz chip could be used to also kill ad blocking software, preserving the "attention rights" of online advertisers.
With it, web pages would be encrypted with a DRM scheme. Only a trusted web browser, running under a trusted OS, verified with the Fritz chip, would be able to decrypt the content. The content metadata (which the browser would be obliged to enforce) could mandate that ads be loaded first, that third-party ad plug-ins are running (i.e., to display ads outside of the browser window), that the browser window is in "always on top" mode, or even that a specified piece of spyware is loaded and verifies that it can "phone home".
Welcome to the Digital Millennium folks.
KDE and GNOME are not the only window managers available!
I would like to point XFce , a "lightweight desktop environment", I ended up findit it a ouuple of years ago looking for a faster desktop, MAYBE that used FLTK (fast light toolkit), that seemed SO fast.
Anyhow, XFce uses GTK but IS fast and light, really...
Really? /. for a couples of hours, some days ago? Me stupid having a life...
When?
Did I forget to check
sigh!
It's like in Jeter's _Noir_; when a "crime" is difficult to prosecute, the only way of deterring it is to increase the penalties proportionately. By this logic, Jeter predicted that copyright violation would become a capital crime, and worse.
"Wake up and smell the burning corpses of your dreams."
"The Palladium is the wooden statue that fell from heaven and was kept at Troy; for so long as it was preserved, the city was safe."
Anyone else suspecting that the original codename was "Trojan Horse"?
I want a digital Hifi equipment that allows me to copy bits just like bits, with no restrictions applied. I'm copying my own recordings, for heaven's sake. Who says I can't copy them because they are not original?
In other words, where is the non-restrictive digital technology nowadays? Do you really assume that DRM companies won't just phase out old (non-DRM) stuff, and sue everybody who doesn't comply (see MP3 players and recorders and encoders)?
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-- Jim
These laws have nothing to do with you.
You are not single-handedly bankrupting our economy.
Microsoft is a profitable company, they're not going bankrupt due to software piracy.
Microsoft used their monpoly status to illegally "steal" the browser market and many others. Things like palladium are about giving MS an easy way to steal even more markets.
MS has been convicted in court. They just have so much money sitting around (from theft) that it doesn't matter.
There are other things in life besides accounting principles. Things like human decency. I personally find the current state of copyright law to be morally reprehensible. It has gone way beyond compensating those who create. It's become a tool for the creation an enforcement of corporate monoplies, at the expense of the consumer. It's no longer used to promote creation, but instead to prevent it. That's what palladium is about, preventing anyone but microsoft from deciding what software is created. Palladium is probably illegal under current antitrust laws, but who has the money to fight Microsoft's legal department?
If you've taken an accounting class, take an economics class an learn about why monopolies are bad for eveyone except the person who owns them. Theft of Windows does a lot less harm to the economy, than Microsoft's monopoly on computer operating systems does.
Life is too short to proofread.
Thanks a lot. To be honest I haven't really had a llok at the processors since I got it so thanks for the advice.
Thanks a lot.
Is it just me, or does it seem like the future of Palladium will make for an open and shut anti-trust case against Microsoft, AMD, and Intel ? Steve Jobs, queue up the lawyers !!
Biodiesel : domestic, renewable, clean, and in the fuel tank of my bone stock 2002 New Beetle TDI
Microsoft are one of the largest corporations that ever existed. They didn't get like that by making stupid business moves. Your PC will still be 'usable' as a 'home' machine, but you'll have to ask Microsoft about everything first. For Joe User, and for the 'Corporate Cube Vine', this will be quite substantial. It'll fuck things up for the rest of us though. Palladium will still be somewhat of a success because it WILL be usable by a large percentage of the general populace. I just don't wanna know what M$'s next marketing tactic will be...
... and then there were none
If machines running Windows can't communicate with non-secure computers, Windows-machines shouldn't be able to communicate with each other at all!
(IE, the latest IE-bug, letting anyone delete your files with a standard url....)
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
No matter what kind of protection they put into the computer, be it hardware, firmware, software, it's US that have the computer, PHYSICALLY. There is nothing that can't be cracked, if you can get your hand on it. There's always some way around the protection. If M$(insert any company here) is so good at making things "secure", they don't have to come up things like "Palladium", do they?
you don't want the internet to become windows as well, now do you?
;-)
I'd suspected that that was Sun's motive in producing Javascript all along.
I've seen exactly two sites in which I feel that the use of Javascript was justified. First, in Yahoo Mail, which also functions without Javascript, you can select all messages for deletion using Javascript.
The second site was demoing a new MP3 player with a name that escapes me for the minute...I think it was Creative's. It literally demoed the UI of the player and let you interact with it to determine whether you liked it.
Other than that, I've pretty much found Javascript to be a nuisance.
* Scrollers/mouseover animated sidebars/bits of characters moving around the screen are Javascript. Any sort of animation on web pages is really annoying to me.
* Javascript gets used for opening a new window. First, I can decide whether I want to open a new window very well by myself, thank you -- that's what the middle button is for. Second, you can do this with plain ol' HTML as well and not inconvenience people that don't use Javascript. Third, I can have *multiple* preview windows, not just get stuck with one.
* Javascript gets used for all sorts of annoying ads. I don't need to name them all -- you've seen them.
May we never see th
Rather than JUST buy an AMD processor; Get a processor and some STOCKS, they just have to rise by 500%.
Fuck Intel.
First it was modchips for better performance of my GTI, then modchips to be able to play pirate games on the PS2 and now..
Except that it will allow me to access things "legally," what benefit does Palladium actually give to the consumer? 'Cuz I'm stumped.
The dream reveals the reality which conception lags behind. That is the horror of life- the terror of art. -Franz Kafka
No, I won't.
=:>
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
By cornering the market on computing freedom, Micromanagement, er..., I mean Redmond, and it's flunkies will have all the time in the world and probably won't care very much how fast anything works. What other choice will we have..?
Besides, Moore's law works such that the 20% you lose today will be regained next year anyway...
DRM-enabled platforms create DRM-enabled content. A lot of slashdotters do manage to live in fairly insular worlds, where a lot of the content on which they feed comes, essentially, from other slashdotters. But how many can honestly say they never consume any commercial content? If it's DRM-enabled, then it's not going to be available to your non-DRM desktop. Ever get email from a Hotmail account? Not unless you've got the DRM-enabled platform on your desk. Word documents (yes, even on Macs), PDF files, Flash animation movies -- any format that's tied to a commercial platform will, eventually, be DRM-locked.
And if the majority of corporations producing the majority of media sign on, eventually you'll be sending text snippets to each other over direct modem links and wondering why your non-DRM cellphone can never get service.
Let's face it: AMD's on board. Apple won't really have any choice but to be on board (and I seriously doubt Jobs has any burning desire to fight DRM). There are likely to be overwhelmingly compelling business reasons for virtually everyone in the content business to get on board as fast as their pseudopods will carry them.
If data really wants to be free, it's going to have a heckuva fight this time around.