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Suit Up Or Ship Out?
ilovestuff wrote to us with a disscussion starter from ZDNet Australia about the changes in dress code at IT jobs. How much is everyone else going through?
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My job is really lax as far as attire...pretty much everything goes except jeans with holes and shorts..
Money not found! A)bort, R)etry, D)eclare Bankruptcy
The cats don't seem to mind.
because of this. They demanded suit and tie every day. ( Not kaki pants and a sport jacket, but an actual suit!).
Additionally, they worked wierd for IT hours, of only 8:00-4:30. They do not work overtime, weekends,or anything else. I didn't want to be in a programming department that was that regimented. It is a creative process, and if I wanted to work late to figure out a problem, they didn't want that.
It's been a long time in coming, but no real surprise, working in the City in London has always required you to wear a suit no matter what job you did, which is why I avoid the city now.
However outside the City its always been much more smart casual, which generally means no jeans or t-shirts, I can live with that.
I don't care what they make me wear, it's better than the McDonald's prison uniform I wore before I came here.
In fact, I'd rather they were dicking around with the dress code, if it kept their minds off dicking around with my pension. Too late.
is the dress code at my 'IT job', which is searching for work, and filing for unemployment. on casual fridays, the pajamas are optional.
If there is a dress code, I'll pack up and leave, or not work there in the first place.
While the workforce here at the office has been trimmed, there's no apparent change in the dress of my cow-orkers. Management (big 'M') has not said anything to any of us.
Not too long ago, my manager came into the server room and declared, "everyone needs to start wearing slacks and button down shirts. Ties aren't necessary but we need to present a better image to the customer."
Me, "That's fine, I quit."
Him, quickly, "Except you, [John]."
[John]
Shit better not happen!
From what I have seen, most of the "culture change" in this direction has been tied to the visibility of the employee. If they have a role that they are in contact with customers (even a remote chance of it), it makes a lot of sense that they follow some standards.
In the past, however, a lot of companies let things slide since having a disheveled programmer that the customer only talked to once in a while was better than no programmer at all. Places like consulting firms won't put up with it at all anymore since everyone there has some chance of customer interaction.
The increase in productivity is not worth the extra cost and it takes away from the key focus, which has to be work
Last time i checked, there was no extra cost imposed on an employer when employees didn't wear suits.
And if it takes focus away from work, it can hardly be considered an increase in productivity, can it?
Or... If it is an increase in productivity, it can't be taking focus from work?
What did i miss?
This is a great quote! The increase in productivity (i.e. the AMOUNT of work done per unit of time) is NOT worth the extra cost of taking away from uhm work... right?
Once my boss urged me to wear a suit and tie to work. But sadly one of the computers hiccuped and i had to take it to the shop. Needless to say i got dirty like hell from assorted dust under the desk that i had to change my clothes. Since then no more suit for the tech guy ....
... whenever a text is transmitted, variation occurs. This is because human beings are careless, fallible, and occasiona
All of my Leisure suits are out of fashion, and the birthday suit is against new policy.
You have to dress! It's disgraceful. It used to be casual dress, which meant that you could be arbitrary about whether or not to dress. Now its compulsory. Next they'll start insisting that togas are out, I'll bet.
No more foozball and smoking dope at work guys. Sorry! Oh well, I have no sympathy for these people whatsoever. Work is just that - WORK. You know, going to work with your pets, in jeans and a t-shirt, doing absolutely nothing all day, and getting paid more than someone who gets dressed up, does a commute, and works an 8-10 hour day is just unfair.
It varies widely from company to company, the main factor being investor relations. You can bet that workers dress nicer when the rumors of layoffs start to circulate. Companies looking for a next round seem to be giving straightforward directives to their workers to dress a better. I know of at least one company where jeans are no longer acceptable. I have found few changes at companies who are either well-funded or profitable.
If being a night janitor at Walgreen's is now considered "programming". . .
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
If we could allow the Open Source developer community to provide direction in the dress code in the average organization, we could improve efficiency by at least 100%.
It has been proven in several academic studies that the presentation of the typical Open Source developer provides the stimulus necessary to instigate productivity in any environment.
Only when we allow the Open Source community of developers to dictate our wardrobe, can we untangle ourselves from the nasty grip that Reebok has on our lives.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
They can have my jeans, as soon as they pry them off my dead, cold ass.
ZDNet Australia asked Paul Rush, a global recruitment consultant, whether he was concerned that a reversal of this culture may also signal a reversal in productivity. "The increase in productivity is not worth the extra cost and it takes away from the key focus, which has to be work."
So the increased productivity detracts from the work - gotcha. I'm glad that's settled.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Well I for one would really like to wear smart skirt suits to work all day, but then again I am a transvestite.
Put it in perspective.
They make me wear shoes now. It wasn't so much a change in the IT dress code, as it was a result of the complaints from other employees. IT dress code, on the other hand, now includes those propeller-hats, so that the other departments can easily identify us...
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
get a real haircut, get a real job.
Dressing up is a good idea if you have a lot of stiff-necked, starched-shirted clients coming by. Its also a good idea if you have employees who like to abuse casual dress codes.
That said, I'm part of a detail of code-monkies consigned to a 'skunk works' away from the corporate offices. We dress casual within limits. No jeans, no sneakers, no t-shirts. When a big-wig shows up, we get all 'gussied-up.' It gives them warm fuzzies. It keeps the revenue flowing.
Basically, it is a reasonable policy. It works for us, we work for them.
--- have you healed your church website?
I don't mind a casual dress standard but a suit and tie are out of the question. It is one of _my_ job requirements. Well, maybe I'd consider it if they were paying me -gt 100k...
Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
it really depends alot on you.. examples:
1. your important and they don't want to lose you.... then you can pretty much do what you want(me for example)
2. your easily replaceable... dress as they ask and you might not get an involuntary career adjustment.
Live in Australia : check
Have IT job : check
Wore Jeans and T-Shirt to Work today : check
ZDNet telling managers that it is now OK to force useless clothing styles on people that never meet clients : check
----- One piece short of Legoland
Boy, what an outrage.
Of all the nerve, to expect computer guys to communicate with other people in the business, to work with them, to adopt the same dress code, and generally become good corporate citizens instead of that grumpy guy sitting over in the corner who won't talk to anyone.
I for one am outraged. I should be able to not be a team player, to dress slovenly, and be totally grumpy and non-communicative with my co-workers, just because my skills are with computers, instead of, say, accounting or HR.
Boy, of all the nerve.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
How does a lax dress code cause 'additional expenditure'?? If the current policy states a more lenient dress code, then it seems changing the dress code policy to something more strict would not only require more money spent in HR's time to transmit this statement to the employees, but also more time wasted in the management chain dealing with delinquent employees!
Now I'm not one to be completely for walking into work in jeans and a ripped T-shirt, but I just think this idiot they got for the interview is just... well, an idiot!
The article had some rather strange statements about casual dress costing the employers money. How does that cost them money? They don't have to buy the clothes and then jeans and a t-shirt costs a hell of a lot less than a suit!
Someone who understands corporate culture far better than I do care to explain how casual dress costs the company more money?
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Having worked for EDS for 5 years back in the day when it was suit and tie for EVERYONE (couldn't leave your cube without your suitcoat on) I can say first hand that it makes absolutly no differnce in company performance, hell if anything wearing a suit while pulling cable makes a person a worse engineer type, not to mention how much static wool generates. The whole dressing up things goes back to old school upper management who has no concept of the kind of people they want to attract.
All changing the rules does is screw the loyal people a company, since come the next economic boom the company will have to slacken its requirements, offer increases pay to new employees etc etc, leaving the existing hard working loyal types in the preverbal lurch. Oh well those corporate MF's will never learn (too much time binge drinking in college I guess).
I do think a little buissness casual is good, cause if there is no dress code I am coming in wearing my old Metallica t-shirt (metal up your ass), some ripped jeans and combat boots.
Why am I "more productive" in a $50 pair of dockers and a dorky polo shirt then I am in jeans, tshirt, flannel, and sneakers (personal uniform of choice). I know on Friday when I can dress like this, I am happier, more laid back, and generally easier to get along with (flannel hides the gut, don't have to suck it in! :P ). Instead, corporate management pukes dictate that I shall dress in clothes that I wouldn't be buried in, all in the name of "professionalism" and "productivity". Goddamn, if I EVER am a manager and sit someone down to tell them that they need to dress "more like me" and I am wearing that dorksuit, jesus god put a bullet in my head.
As a previous poster pointed out, the change in the supply:demand ratio compared to a few years ago is one of the key factors that means this kind of thing was bound to happen. In a market where for most positions you can get four or five suitable candidates quite easily, any HR Director is looking for the one thing that makes a difference, and presentation is one of those things - especially in companies who are increasingly considering the IT depts. as cost centers in the same way as they do the telephones, the maintenace contracts on their metal presses etc. They demand service quality, and the perception of quality in the service they receive can be heavily influenced by the presentation of the people they employ. Most beancounters will automatically consider a sysadmin in jeans and tux t-shirt as being less "impressive" than a guy in a shirt and tie - as long as both get the job done.
Given the choice between two printing presses that both produce very acceptable output, cost the same and have the same features - would you choose the one that's dusty and scraped, even if only superficially, over the shiny polished one with a fresh paint job? I think not.
Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
we started smart, then went casual for about the last year, but have recently been told smart casual (shirt and trousers but no tie (thank god, i crash when tie 1.1 is added to simonOS) on the fear of being sent home to change (back to skool kids). Thankfully ever friday is normal casual, back to the combats and t.
Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
I can't imagine trying to sell myself to a client dressed in a t-shirt and jeans. It's all how you present yourself. If you look like you don't care what you look like, that reflects on you very poorly. Same goes for those idiots with the long pony tails....come on guys, you're not in Metallica. I also got contacts, just to kill that stereotype :)
So what does the readoption of traditional corporate culture mean to you? It means you're no longer going to be employed just because you're a technical guru. You are going to have to learn to dress, communicate, and adapt all the traditional corporate ideals that IT has been exempt from in the "dot-com culture".
Well, in my eyes it has always been important that you have to communicate, dress etc. - no matter the job.
On the other hand, while those things should not be totally ignored, they shouldnt take prevalence over your skill.
So Im seeing this developement with a laughing and a crying eye, another "dream" lost to harsh reality, but it the end it really just might have been just a dream.
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
You need the tie to cut off the blood to your brain so you can be in a proper state to understand management's reasoning on things.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
I've never understood the reasoning behind having to dress up for work. To me if one does your work and does it well what does it matter if you are wearing jeans or whatever for that matter.
Where I am, a tie has been on the "must wear" list for about a year now, even though as a regular part of Software's job, we have to test our code on the production floor with machines that have all kinds of moving parts with lots of torque behind them. On our "casual" day, jeans and T-shirts are verboten. However, we are constantly being pressed to release code that is not ready with no concern for whether it's buggy or not, and this is code that runs a high-powered laser machining tool. I guess the motto at our place should be, "It doesn't matter if we *are* professional, it only matters that we *look* professional".
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Lets face it, IT is changing, rapidly.
Traditionally, your average IT guy, lived and breathed computers, he was not master of one, he was jack of all trades and (normally) master of one particular area. YOu couldn't just go into uni and be taught everything you needed to know to go out and do computing, you had to live and breath it at a young age.
The times have changed, now every man and his dog does IT degrees and the market is being flooded with well presented, sociable creatures who dont actually understand what they are doing, they don't understand what teh computer is doing, they have not LEARNT the computer, they have LEARNT the program.
The traditional IT workers who can't dress to save there lives and have little social skills are finding it alot harder to compete with these socially adept creatures, and thus the attitude of the workers and the employees has changed
My theory anyway
Microsoft IIS is to webserving as KFC is to healthy eating
If the place of business is professional, then yes I will 'suit-up'... If the guy is willing to write big checks, I'm willing to provide the suit coat with an inside pocket to securely insert that check into. OTOH, if the place is casual, then go for it. As old-fashioned as it sounds, your dress does speak for your competence in the presence of the higher-ups, especially the technically illiterate ones. If you want to be taken seriously, then at least dress yourself seriously. Now, in the classroom, I wear professional but comfortable clothing - since I teach Comp Sci (and my curricula does involve a lot of hands-on work), this is usually informal, meaning suit pants and shirt, but usually no tie or jacket.
"Sorry, we're open"
-Bar sign in Playa del Carmen, Mexico.
In both places I've worked, a public school system and in a financial services company, we've had to wear ties. However, I was part time at the school system so all I've had to do was not wear something tasteful ( jeans/t-shirt OK ), unless I wanted to be jockeying for a full time post like some of the tools here were.
Honestly, unless you're in meetings or what not, I just can't see the purpose of ties. Most of the consultant types that pass thru here are in the polo shirt w/ kahkis or jeans routine, which I think should be a norm for IT people who (a) mainly program since you want to be comfortable yet presentable or (b) mainly service equipment or do field work since you are generally are on the floor or under a desk mucking with computers.
As for more traditional corporations, where most of the dot-com hype was never adopted anyway, the current change is rather positive than negative.
Finally, 20 years after Peopleware, it seems like people have actually started to notice that people and teams are first-order effects. The current agility hype is sure helping. (Let's hope it doesn't go too far...)
I recently managed to convince a (very traditional) organisation to go for dual monitors for a team of developers (14 ppl). That would just not have happened a couple of years ago.
I'm sorry Paul Rush, but you are a moron.
Here in Sweden the dresscode has never been too strict, nor is it going to be, in the engineering sector. Of cource I wear a suite and tie when I'm on a customer meeting (but on-one forces me into doing that, I just want to make a good impression), but except from that I go with what ever I feel like. Naturally, one can't look/smell like a bozo, but a t-shirt and jeans (or shorts) is OK.
Suits Generate Bogons! so beware!
At least I don't have to wear a tie anymore, like that stupid Philly mob made me wear back east.
"There, you look so much better, don't you feel better?" "No, I feel asphixiated, excuse me while I go work on my resume."
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
In the hope of some pay rises I dress poorly.
I really don't give a fuck about dress anymore.
I will wear shorts in the summer as it is bloody hot. Sure people give you strange looks but at least I won't be sweating like a pig.
I try to wear tee-shirts promoting Debian and open source whenever possible.
Not smelling like a shithouse is a higher priority!
What he said only without the sarcasm :)
Is that they're so damn hot. I'll wear a suit as soon as they come with personal air conditioning, or when the company decides to keep the building at 60 degrees year round.
Otherwise, the image I'd present to whoever walks in would be a guy who just got out of the bathtub, with his clothes on.
Fortunately, my job only requires slacks and a button down shirt. My last job only required that I didn't wear cutoffs, bare my midriff, or have any profanity on me. Hopefully my next job won't get any stricter on the dress code.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Started out with EDS, which in those days you couldn't get much stricter in dress code.. the poor sales guys were even told WHERE to buy their clothes..
Then the far opposite, where Dockers and polo shirts were overdress...
I think it really all depends on what industry you work in. You dont wear a 3 piece suit in a automotive plant, but dont forget your tie in an attorneys office..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Anyone with this quote has to have been kicked in the head by a mule at some point in his life:
"People see any additional expenditure as fun and that means you don't have to go for that additional comfort for your employees because you don't need to do it anymore because you don't need to compete to hold on to your employees," Rush adds.
Huh?
This guy is just some nobody recruiter churning out his hr-speak. Pay it no mind.
This would stop most of this nonsense, if enough people left their jobs to do real IT work. Not content with the crass stupidity at paying
salaries at early 90s levels, they want to
also want the workforce to wear suits?
Interestingly enough, I have some questions to employers, and government:
(This is not a comprehensive list btw)
Not kaki pants and a sport jacket, but an actual suit!
Oh my! Heaven forbid!!!
Have you ever had to wear a suit and tie to work everyday? It is one royal pain in the ass, getting stuff presses at the cleaners, scratchy collars, wool suits in the summer. I did it for 5 years at EDS (they were very strict, you couldn't leave their cube without your suit coat on, that and they are based in Texas, can you say 100 degree summers). Suffice to say requireing programmer/engineer types to wear suits is gonna do NOTHING for the good, buissness casual is about the limit. Requiring suits just makes the execs feel better.
Which group of programmers would you hire, a room full of suit wearing 9-5r's or a room full of cheesy-poof eating coffee drinking work around the clock for 3 days straight types (wearing god knows what). Sure you wouldn't want to show the second group to investers, but I bet you would have better code and happier employees (who will stay with you) then the first group.
...clean clothes. That's about the only standard. As you long as you don't stink you are fine here in Finland. :)
The first time they entered in my room to tell me about how to dress, I was crawling under my table, connecting cables together...
:)
They actually understood it would be quite uncomfortable to force me to wear a S&T in order to perform such a speleological work
Trolling using another account since 2005.
At the office:
Shorts or jeans, golf shirt (not tucked in), Airwalks, socks.
At the home office:
What-ever.
and put a bullet in the head of that article's author.
One: there is no byline on that story. Therefore we can assume it was written by the 'Manage' channel editor, some pimply business school undergrad/intern who is trying to please the managing editor by scribing butt-kissing diatribe for his weekly peanut salary, a commonplace in the sad reality that is online publishing in Australia.
... in Australia.
Two: this is zdnet
Slashdot could do a lot better than to run this trash.
OK, so I had the misfortune last year to be made redundant twice from nice Web Media companies where I could where pretty much what I wanted. This was nice, it meant I didn't have to stress about what I picked out of the wardrobe in the morning and could dress for the weather.
Now, I used to work for the public sector before this for nigh on two years as an external consultant and it was suit and tie every day.
More ironing, sure, but lent a lot more credibility to an otherwise young punk in amongst some of the UK's most senior pharmacologists.
Now I'm back in the public sector except I can forgo the tie unless I'm meeting a senior client but I still look like I'm staff/a professional.
Except Friday which is "Dress Down Day" when we can dress how we like.
Now, we're all thinking: "If it's OK to dress down on Friday and still go out and see the clients, why the hell do we have to suit and tie-up Monday - Thursday? Surely there's no difference?"
Many of our clients in the same organisation do not have a dress code yet we do, except on Fridays.
Would it really be such a big step if we were to shed the business suit Monday to Thursday?
Chris.
I'm wearing a phish shirt and jeans. Clean clothes is our dress code. If a client is showing up for a demo they ask us to wear something with a collar. Thats it.
"Give someone a program, frustrate them for a day... Teach someone to program, frustrate them for a lifetime."
Dressing neatly shows you have respect for others.
It does make it clean and more professional looking.
Wearing outlandish shirts, or ripped jeans shows or suggests that you don't care about your appearance.
Wearing some nice pants, or jeans and a polo shirt (what I wear) can have you neat, somewhat professional looking and still be comfortable. Actually I find polo shirts more comfortable because the nice ones tend to be higher quality.
Wearing a suit for a suits sake isn't good, I've seen some nasty suits where they would have been better off without it.
By looking as though you take your job seriously, and make an effort to appear neat, clean and professional. People do react differently depending on your appearance.
Our fathers and grandfathers sent men to the moon wearing friggin TIES. Ever see those shots of NASA, back in the Apollo program? Buzzcut, tie, cigarette, each and every one of them. And these were engineers! Sending people to the moon!
Like our work is any more complex or important. Oh, no, catsbyweb.com needs a new MySQL repliation server. Wearing a tie would "impair my creativity". Woe, is me.
But playing devil's advocate: I'm taking a management class (I'll be so happy when this semester is over...) right now, and it is pretty obvious from the text and lecture that management has been out to end any vestige of "dot com culture" since it started. Their "embracing" of the whole new culture thing was just a nice side-effect of the system being flush with money.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
One time my boss was out sick so they sent me in to represent our department at a large meeting with the customers. I think I was picked because I happened to be wearing slacks and a button-down shirt (even though it wasn't mandatory). The customer was upset because the product was late and was demanding to know why. I told the customer what I thought the real due date for the product would be (about 4 times what he had been told by management). After that I didn't get invited to any more meetings with the customers.
The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
Seeing the worker bees uniformed like prisoners gives management a greater feeling of dominance over the workers--and this feeling is their subconscious barometer of "productivity."
Possibly.
Your mouth is like Columbus Day.
Oh.. My.. GOD...
We're going to have to actually look like... PROFESSIONALS..
Seriously IT is the only profession that would allow that kind of dress. Do you see a lawyer or an engineer (a real one) wearing jeans? Even the engineers who go on construction sites wear long pants and ties.
The bottom line here is that it all depends on how important it is to you. I recently spent a very long time unemployed and searching and at a certain point I had to ask myself how important finding a job that had various perks or rights associated with them. At one point I interviewed with a bank that wanted, not only to make me dress up in a suit, but they wanted to take my piss on a regular basis to make sure I wasn't smoking weed on the weekends. I decided that was too much; that I'd rather be unemployed than have to deal with those two conditions. When a job came along that respected my privacy, I took it, and while I'm kind of disappointed that I have to wear khakis and a polo shirt every day instead of shorts or jeans or whatever, it wasnt worth turning down this job. I'll bet that there are folks out there for whom it would be worth it to turn down a job, because their personal comfort or style is worth more to them than mine is to me. As jobs become increasingly scarce, those who can afford to hold out for jeans and t-shirt workplaces will shrink, but lets not kid ourselves; this is about what that particular aspect of work is worth to you.
Let's just avoid this whole "corporate america is screwing us" rhetoric and remember that you can always quit and look for a job that will let you wear jeans IF its worth that much to you.
This too shall pass.
I just finished working a contract which half way through they insisted that all contractors wear shirt and tie.
I can honestly say that my productivity almost halved (And my morning dress preparation doubled!), I was more concerned about not dirtying my suit and the costs of ny dry cleaning bills (that funnily enough my contract rate wasn't increased to cover) than doing the actual work.
When your expected to dive under tables and re-patch cables in computer rooms wearing a suit is so impractical, its uncomfortable and restrictive and I believe asking a little too much.
IT is often a very physical job moving fitting servers and entering often very tight areas, I don't know about you all but how many Electricians or Cablers are required to were suits? I've yet to see one and they all look very smart in their Golf shirts and Khakis.
-Action
"I suggest a new strategy, Artoo: let the Wookie win." -- C3P0
Sometimes you just have to roll with it: what is more important: your job, or wearing a 15 year old Iron Maiden shirt to work?
It's not as bad as your arms being ripped out of their sockets!
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
let's face it - khakis (read: Dockers) were an American phenomenon.
Americans like the *easy* slouching fashion - they invented jeans!
Not much of a discussion - a very short article with three quotes from some recruitment consultant, including this gem: "People see any additional expenditure as fun..." - eh? Wot?
In any case, most employers know that the presence of a tie around a techie's neck doesn't in general improve his or her morale or productivity. Even if I enjoyed wearing a tie and wore one voluntarily, making it mandatory would piss me off.
Chuck Norris: Socialism == a thousand years of darkness.
Im a pretty experienced programmer, but I bailed on silicon valley because there are no jobs left there. Im working on the east coast now, at a place that makes me wear a tie and collared shirts. Once you get over the shock of having to spend more than 20 bucks a year on clothing (you can go for years without updating if you live in a server room), wearing a monkeysuit (not even a full suit) isnt really that bad. Plus it gets you in the habit of shopping for decent clothing for when youre not working.
Its a small drawback to work in a place with job security (hard to imagine after 3 years of failing startups) and 9 to 5 hours with good salary. I think that is a pretty tolerable tradeoff.
Also, there is still plenty of opportunity to be counterculture- no one said you had to dress in browns and blues only. Dress flashy if you get bored. If someone objects, tell them youre just conforming to the dress code lol troublemaker.
There is an inverse relationship between the amount spent on clothes, and the amount of bull slung at work. Notice how well lawyers dress...
Gosh, I think I'll shave today, maybe wear some slacks, and I think I'll stand at the coffee machine for half the day talking about some TV movie I didn't watch last night.
:-)
Maybe I'll even spend an hour in the cafe, instead of taking my lunch back to the office so I can work while eating.
I'll definitely take a double-dose of antidepressants and maybe some pain killers. I'm sure people will like me better if I do.
To quote the protagonist from As Good as it Gets, "You make me want to be a better man."
I'll ship out, thanks.
I'm no slob. I dress in clean jeans every day, I iron my t-shirts, and I buy and use deodorant, as well as soap and shampoo.
But I'll be buggered if I'm going to work for a company that thinks that professionalism has anything to do with the clothes you wear.
Trends like this have nothing to do with the collapse of dotcom culture, and everything to do with office managers grasping at the straws of job justification in an economy where things are not so stable, and their jobs could easily fly out the window like anyone else's.
I work for Yahoo! Australia & NZ, and I'm happy to say that I could wear a sleeveless hunting shirt with military boots, dread-locks and 15 year old cargo pants with more holes in them than I have centimeters around my waist. No one would even blink. Why? because they all know that I'm 100% capable of doing my job on any given day, no matter what I'm wearing.
Any employer that treats me differently -- or believes differently -- shows an immense lack of trust in me, and therefore cannot be trusted by me. A company less interested in its employee's happiness and more interested in its image will die a slow, painful death, and management will wonder why none of their employees will go the extra mile the whole way down.
So here I am, taking your bait and replying. At work, at midnight, in my jeans and my ironed t-shirt. Why? My employer goes the extra mile for me, which means I do the same for them.
jeremiah johnson.
The only good corporate citizen.. is a dead corporate citizen..
IMHO
IT matters little what one wears. lessons learned at home as a child should suffice to provide hygiene/manners.
what's behind the "presentation" is key. if the product/service offered is some bogus payper liesense stock markup FraUD, then you WILL need a distracting outfit to wear, & a bunch of deceptive verbage.
If the company's "image" is a "job 1", or if the public recognizes them doo to sh!tstorms of phony ?pr? rhetoric, they're probably going to knead to mould you into their "image".
some folks will buy rocks if they're wrapped nicely. some folks realize that overdone "packaging" will mask worth less product(s).
drink swahilli, come as you are.
I wear pretty casual clothes at work. A (mostly ThinkGeek) T-Shirt, jeans and sport shoes are my kind of thing. While at work nobody complains about how i dress, the nightclub i went to last saturday, kicked us out just because of the sport shoes. How about that :-)
Stop whiiinnnniiiinng.
I have no sympathy for people that will now have to present a mature appearence and attitude, like most of the rest of the world in the workplace. Asking IT people to wear a tie or to show appropriate communication skills does not bring them in line with a road sweeper. It just makes the ones with an unprofessional attitude adopt a more mature style of behavior and a more professional style of dress.
Personally, in my company, as long as it looks decent, I even allow jeans and sandles (if the jeans are torn or too faded, they're out), but I ALWAYS expect good communication and people skills. I've worked with a few coders who may have been great coders, but their lack of communication skills have made it impossible to get them to listen or produce the product that was necessary. None of them are working for me now. If you want to wear jeans and sandles and listen to Metallica while you code, fine, that's why God invented headphones, but when it comes to interacting with the rest of the staff, I expect these people who claim to be so much more intelligent than the rest of the world to use that intelligence to figure out how to interact. I also expect common courtesy, something I've noticed a significant portion of coders I've dealt with (not a majority, but enough to notice) don't show. There's just no excuse for not knowing how to show common courtesy.
I understand Yalls sentiments. I'm as much a geek as the next guy. I'm a S/W Engineer for my company where we all get to wear T-shirts and jeans and such... most of the time! I promise you though, the moment it comes to having to interface with customers, we ALL have to dress proper, and rightfully so!
Like it or not, in this world there is a level of expectations and if you ever want to move up (pay or otherwise) you do need to conform at least some. The more professional I look and act, the more professional people will consider me. What else do they have to go by? My abilities? Hell no. I can be a great programmer, but If I act imature or don't play well together with my coworkers ei. a loner I'm of limited use to the company. Some projects take multiple people to work on them, all of them presenting ideas and working close. Behavior and showers go along ways to making it work!
In the end, if I can not even present myself in a professional manner by my word dress and deeds, then I really will not be able to function at my job.
As always, this is a rule and there are exceptions but I'm betting they are few.
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
Yeah, sure. Not wearing a suit == being grumpy, noncommunicative and antisocial. I've never understood people that need to force others into uniforms. Your kind of smugness is also completely alien to me: "Ha! Thought you could get away with wearing something else? Well, get in line, and damn well enjoy it like the rest of us!".
We have a great culture going here, many techs are allowed to dress the way they like. Why do you want to take that away from us and conform us to some stupid corporate tradition? Nobody will work harder because they wear a tie.
... at least where I work (IBM).
Over the last decade IBM has shifted from a serious suit-and-tie kind of place to pretty much anything goes, except in front of customers, of course. After the last couple of rounds of layoffs, however, I've noticed a distinct shift in dress among the survivors, and it's not because of anything management has said.
IBM still dresses casually but I've noticed in my part of the company that dockers have largely replaced jeans and button-down shirts or turtlenecks have pretty much eradicated t-shirts. Sports coats and nice shoes are even seen on the upwardly mobile.
Management hasn't said anything, and there are very few employees around from "the old days", so it isn't that people are reverting back. I'm convinced that it's just basic caution; after seeing a bunch of others tossed on the street, everyone wants to go the extra mile in looking and acting like a professional, a valuable employee who must be retained -- just in case layoffs strike again.
My theory is that we'll see dress shift subtly up and down the scale in inverse proportion to the stock price.
Stock up == times good == dress irrelevant.
Stock down == times bad == better look good in every way you can.
Of course, for me, like many IBMers, this only matters when we actually go into the office. Large portions of IBM work from home these days, an experiment prompted by dot-boom but retained because it works well and saves on real estate costs. Again, though, when the stock is down face time with your boss becomes important...
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
We have an "expected visibility" rule. Day to day minimum dress code is "Business Casual" - collared shirt, tie optional, no sport shoes, no denim - that sort of thing(*). "Casual Friday" means intact jeans are permitted, but not uncollared T-shirts. The above is the standard UNLESS you expect a to visit a client or to have a client visit you, then it's strictly collar and tie(*). All in all, it seems to work well. If you get an unexpected customer visit you or get sent on a sudden site visit, they see that everyone is pretty well dressed. And the customer can still see that you make an effort to impress when the meeting is expected, particularly if they have seen you in your day to day wear. Onnly thing is, I don't buy business wear as often, and that which I still have no longer fits like it used to do (since I hit 36, my broad mind and narrow waist have begun trading places ;(
(*) or equivalent dress standard for women
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Salary Fixed compensation for services, paid to a person on a regular basis.
When you are on a salary, there is no clock, so working until 1 AM would not necessarily be a bad thing in this case.
Wage Payment for labor or services to a worker, especially remuneration on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis or by the piece.
Working off the clock on a Wage is a bad thing, but I prefer Salaries myself.
sounds like this article was written by another one of those MIS majors or something. Clearly it's written by someone who knows little to nothing about the creative process. In my office I have to wear shirt & tie, and I never, EVER see the customer! The don't let me go to meetings because because I always try to drill through the bullshit to the heart of a project, instead of making false promises and lying to the customer, like those business analyst types. So, I'm kind of left wondering, why must I wear a tie? For pete's sake, I'm not even a good programmer from 8 to 5! They should just let me tele-commute, I could make my own hours, and I could work in my undies, and then my house can stink like ass and feet all day!
Spread the RC luvin'
I should be able to not be a team player
Very true. I work in a gourmet food company. We have food salesman, food buyers, food marketers, food managers etc....and a network engineer. I am a team player, just have no other teammates. IT should be required to be 'good corporate citizens' (since apparently that is defined by clothes) if and only if (old basic construct) IT is your businesses focus. Otherwise leave us alone.
Asked if he thinks there will ever be a return to "dot-com" culture Rush replied: "Elements will come back. If we can't have elements like that in society we stop challenging our traditional values and when we stop doing that, we stop maturing as a species."
I sure hope this was taken out of context (as many interview comments are) because he won't last in his position for long if he thinks business cares one bit about maturing as a species.
My organization remains ultra-casual in it's dress. If you're meeting with a client, then you're expected to wear something like khakis and a decent shirt. Right now I'm wearing torn jeans and a t-shirt.
If you come for an interview here, I'll tell you in advance that you shouldn't dress up. If you show up in a suit or something similar, I'll think there's something wrong with you.
Although we dress casually here, you are expected to have good communication skills. If you're a technical wizard, but have some serious social deficits, you will have a pretty hard time working here. If I had a position for a head-down coder who didn't talk to anyone, then I wouldn't care about communication skills, but I don't have such positions here.
Instead of marketing and PHB dressing down to regular clothes they need the entire staff to clone up to their level? If i see an IT in suit i cant take him serious, ill assume point'n'click level.
HTTP/1.1 400
Y'know, you can be a team player, and communicate effectively with other people in the business, and be a good "corporate citizen" (whatever that's supposed to mean) without wearing a suit.
At the start of the year, I had to go to a client site for a meeting. I had been advised that they had a dress code, so I wore shoes, suit trousers and a shirt and tied my hair back (it was long then), rather than my normal boots, jeans and T-shirt.
The meeting went fine, everyone seemed happy, until I got back to the office. A few hours later, the project manager approached me rather apologetically, and told me that there had been a complaint about the dress standard of those of us who went to the meeting. Basically, they objected to us not wearing ties.
Funnily enough, my not wearing a tie didn't seem to affect my ability to get their project done on time, despite both the timescale and the budget being woefully under-estimated. Of course, I'm sure that they'd still rather it went over time and budget, but that we all looked the part.
Bottom line is, it's not the clothes that are doing the programming, it's me. If you want it done right, there are a few things I need, and one of them is to be relaxed and happy. Force me into uncomfortable clothes, and I'll be distracted, and so make more mistakes and take longer over my work.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
If you don't like the tie, get it caught in a laser printer fuser and claim it almost killed you (yank the cord before it squeezes your face, please). I think OSHA would have fun with that one.
I have my jeans and I have my dress pants. I rather wear my dress pants- they are that much nicer and far more comfortable.
I've also noticed that people tend to pay more attention to what I'm saying when I'm dressed nicely than in my jeans and tee.
The only downside is that I spend a bit more time and money with care and cleaning of my dress clothes.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Damn you!
After my art-diploma I shortly considered studying fashion-design. I didn't , but eventually joined the IT field instead.
:-)
One thing that realy caught my interesst during the dot.com craze is, that managers would actually pick the let's-go-visit-our-customer-this-morning show-of geek by the geekiest of clothing. The weirder the better.
bizarly dressed geek == top class programmer
The cliche really sticks, even if not allways and for shure.
I actually chose to be left alone, but be taken serious when I actually do have something to say. Thus I settle for the supersafe classics for IT-pros, and if you're not shure about how to dress, take this as an advice from someone who knows a little about fashion (and has sewn the one or otehr garment allready):
1.) Double-black thick jeans that *fit* (find your brand, messurements and model) and are long enough to cover the top of the shoes when standing.
2.) Top quality sports or leisure shirt. I'm serious. Do not - under any circumstances save money on a shirt if money's gonna get you a good one. Then rather buy less. Cheap shirts allways look and fit like cheap shirts, even if they're new. The last one I got is a thick, blackish-green checkered Ralph Lauren without pockets (leisure shirt?). Cost me 80$ (Sale!). Once it's dry, I just put it on and even when I have to where it for days in a row it still looks like freshly ironed.
Don't be afraid of non-ceo colors or aparently old-fashioned colors though. You wan't to look good and classical, not spineless. And if it's a good shirt it will look good.
3.)) Black or very dark kneesocks. Kneesocks is a no-brainer. If I ever catch you in short, tennis, sports or no socks you'll get wrapped into barbed wire and shot into the sun. No kidding.
Only exeption: Summer heat. Then you wear no socks and dark, moderatly colored Teva Sandals (a modern classic that allways fits in summertime) - but wash your feet and clip those toenails!!!
Summerheat is also the time for an all-out attack from your geek t-shirt collection.
T-Shirt fitting rule: You lean, mean and slender? Tight fit. You a little pudgy (or a fatso?): The looser, the better.
And: T-Shirts only, no sweaters! If it's chilly you get a moderately colored pullover or knittwear jacket. Again: quality pays!
4.)Shoes, not> sneakers (british: trainers). Black. Or other fitting dark color combos. Dockers/Dock Martins will do fine, but better quality shoes that have a more refined style are better. Again, same goes as with shirts: Don't save money in the wrong place. Afer all, you're gonna wear them all day.
The fashion statement:
While this outfit may not be the same as standard ceo-look - your an intelligent programmer after all, no ceo, you can attend any ceo meeting in it with a strait face, and might even get positive attention for your outfit. Add a good blazer (Armani or a not so expensive equivalent maybe) and you can even go to the opera without changing.
And you still won't look overdresed at an emacs developers convent.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Yeah, what's got into them? After all, an expensive suit and tie are just the thing to wear when you have to crawl up into the ceiling above the drop panels to run a cat 5 cable, crawl under desks to get at computers, and cut holes in dry wall to put in a new network drop.
J'accuse!
I know this because Tyler knows this.
Geeks can be complete slobs, lacking even basic hygiene and fashion sense.
Having people dress acceptably for work is a sign of respect. It also weeds out the morons. Save the occasional odd genius (which, if you are reading this, you are not), requiring a clean appearance with matching colors weeds out the multitude of borderline retarded MCSE / Visual Basic developers wandering aimlessly in the world, writing crappy code.
If people aren't able to dress with some semblance of style, they should go work somewhere else, somewhere less demanding (would you like fries with that?).
Casual Fridays are okay. But when they decided to implement nude Mondays, I realised I should have picked a job where more of my coworkers were women.
i still wear leather boots, black jeans and a black ....
...
t-shirt which has the 'i read your e-mail' slogan
on it
lmao , i wanna see that office that puts me into a suit
if i'd earn 500k$ a year, maybe , but below that ? no tu.
why do i need suit while i'm compiling or debugging ?
how does wearing a tie make easier an analyse of a
database ? how does wearing normal shoes improve my
productivity ?
looking like another yuppiy doesn't make my code faster
nor does it make me feel more comfortable
KILL ALL HUMANS !!! - [(tm) by Bender (CartoonAction!) ]
I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
... and there was me thinking that my presentation skills and general understanding of the industry were the key points in communicating with my less technical colleagues.
Obviously I'm wrong, and as soon as I start wearing a suit and tie everyone will understand me much more easily.
Q.
The last company I worked for rode the dot-com financial support wave, and let me tell you how comfortable that place was!
500$ chairs, great IT group, great system, resources on demand, we had it all... Of course, we did not know that at the time, and we still bitched.
Now though, I work for a company that actually does turn a profit, and although my salary is better, my working conditions certainly are not!
It took IT 5 days to put a computer on my fold up table! Pre bought computer racks? Home made wood racks. 500$ chairs? Please, why have a serie of expensive chairs when you can have many torn, miss matched, uncomfortable as all hell chairs. This place is a total sh!t hole. Never mind that it's nowhere near the city...
People are kind of used to it by now, but still. If they told us we had to wear suites on top of that, I think people would get up extra early the next day to be the first at the office with a gun!
Anyhow, the point is that if this would have been 5 years ago, my current company would not be able to keep any of it's workforce!
You must be a business analyst with "programming skills" who is jealous of your more knowledgeable coworkers (the ones who can actually code). Not everyone needs to be a 90% presentation / 5% brains tool like you, although these qualities make you ideal for management. Sigh.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Actually, my company, which shall remain unnamed, used to have pretty strict dresscodes, in fact the dresscode rules have changed 3 times in the last year.
First they announced that Business casual had been eliminated, and Business dress (suit and tie) was now required for all offices globally. Then just after everyone spent a couple of grand upgrading their wardrobes, they announced that Business casual had returned. Then, just a couple of months ago, dresscodes were eliminated entirely for all European offices.
Depending on which office I am in, I may still wear a suit and tie, but when I don't think it's necessary, I wear whatever I want. I think it's a great arrangement, but I feel sorry for the people who spent a small fortune on new clothes, and weren't really in a position to do so.
Maybe when we get out of bankruptcy, we can go back to Business Dress..
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
If you are a company representative, then a suit and tie for males and a long skirt (no slit), short heels and pantyhose are mandatory for the women. Hair above the collar for men and nothing wider than your shoulders for women.
Free-wheeling, individualistic types that think freely and look like an animated pile of dirty laundry does nothing for anyone. Anyone that thinks differently either A) owns their own company or, B)wanders around in a daze.
Simple dress and presentation codes exist for reasons that are easily understood by most 5 year-olds.
If you can't understand this, perhaps you are best left in a room where no one can see, smell or talk to you.
I've been in this industry long enough to remember when ties (but not jackets) were mandatory....
Something that these managers have forgotten is that everyone, not just techies, adopted a more casual dress code for a reason. It takes more personal time to maintain a suit - something that's not a big deal if you work 40 hours, but *is* a problem if you're putting in a couple extra hours at work every day.
It also limits what you can do during the work day. With casual clothing, if I know I'll be working late I may take a long lunch and hit the health club. I can't do that if I'm in a suit but the nearby health club doesn't have full-height lockers.
I agree that some people, esp. some developers, have gone too far. But it's not hard to specify a reasonable minimal standards, especially if you're flexible. E.g., if you really need to specify khaki slacks because it's what your customers expect, allow "stone" jeans.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I'm honestly not trolling, but
Why is there no Union for IT workers?
Because you are in the US
Why is the current practice of laying off your IT staff, then "re-employing" them as contractors (at a lower rate) not illegal?
Because you are in the US
Why is most of the programming work done overseas, where you have to ridiculously overspecify the project to get maintanable/extendable code?
Becasue you are in the US. Overseas workers are cheaper. + specifying code well + communicating is a good thing
Why are our governments allowing Visas for people to do IT work, when there are IT people available for work in their own country?
Becasue you are in the US and have a higher standard of living
Why do employers/government wish to abuse our human rights read our email, and look at the websites we read?
Becasue you are in the US with little privacy law
Why does this kind of article make me sick?
An article on intoducing dress codes makes you sick!?!?
Dude, do you know what is happening in Afghanestan (sp), Chechnia (sp), Bosnia.....
Becasue you are in the US?
There's just no excuse for not knowing how to show common courtesy.
Sometimes I wish someone would judge my managers from that standpoint. I don't know how (actually I have a pretty good idea), but it seems the people with the worst 'people skills' get management positions around here. Of course, you go up another level and the people there (middle management, or upper local management) and the 'people skills' are there, but only a few actually have a clue what people have to do to get the job done. Only about 20% of the people at that level actually worked their way up to it in this industry, rather than coming in from other industries or straight out of some management school or something along those lines.
-PainKilleR-[CE]
There's a story (whether this is urban legend or similar I don't know but it's nice anyway) regarding dress code, Microsoft and IBM and it goes like this:
In the early days when the two companies were colaboration on DOS for the original PC there was a meeting between IBM and MS. The IBM boys turned up at MS' headquarters all suited up to find their oposite numbers sitting in jeans, t-shirts and sneakers. Both were embarrassed. The next meeting was held at IBM and yes, MS turned up dressed smartly to find the IBM boys had dressed down and were now the ones wearing jeans and t-shirts.
It seems to me that if you're meeting others then dressing similarly and smartly is a courtesy to your guests/hosts, but if you're just sitting at a desk, hidden away from outsiders, banging out the code (as I often am) then it really doesn't matter what you wear. In fact I'm often NIFOC when coding at home.
I still have my long hair, my beard and all of my earrings and nobody seems to care a bit :)
Gotta love this place.
da kekePower
Life is too short, die now!
I work at an advertising agency, so my milage will most definitely vary.
When I started, I was semi-expected to wear kaki pants and button up shirt. Though the last two+ years I've been wearing nothing but blue jeans and nice pull over shirts with my Adidas shoes. Somedays I wear sandals, somedays I wear shorts.
But like I say, I'm a sys admin for a creative agency, so we tend to do things a little different.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Absolutely not. I can code a whole hell of a lot better than I can do anything else. At the same time, I understand that just because I happen to be a computer guy, shouldn't somehow make me magically exempt from the rules of society.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
You realize very quickly ZDNet Australia has no one who can either write, edit, or spell.
/. must be involved in some way.
I suspect the guys who run
From the article:
Work harder? Is that possible? All the time, we read articles about software development teams working round-the-clock for weeks to meet a deadline. If these IT departments are doing any sort of application development for in-house use (instead of the minions on contract), I can only imagine that stuff like that happening to them already... and they'll have to work harder? And in suits? (The same suit 24 / 7 for three weeks of never leaving?)
And my family asks why I didn't go into C.S.
One might ask the same about birds. What ARE birds? We just don't know.
Now, it's mostly my wife who insists I dress nicely. My coworkers (I work in a company of 10 people), don't really care that much.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
Yes, true.
The only issue I have with dress code is it should go with the job. You wouldn't expect someone who works on a flight line to wear a suit and tie, just because the HR people in the same company do, would you?
No, he wears what's appropriate for the job. In my job, I could be moving servers around, disconnecting cables, running cables under the subfloor, and other miscellaneous things. I've ruined enough slacks when I worked for a company that wanted us to look "professional", and I won't do that again.
It all depends on the job, in my opinion...
How exactly do you people keep changing from casual to smart clothing every time you need to go visit a client? Does your office have a changing room, or something? :-)
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
There is a web site with interesting insight about this question as it applies to long hair, but many of the ideas apply to appearance in general.
"People see any additional expenditure as fun and that means you don't have to go for that additional comfort for your employees because you don't need to do it anymore because you don't need to compete to hold on to your employees," Reading the above article makes me laugh. I don't know about other countries, but in general here in Europe I see the tendency to make the employees more comfortable in order to ensure that they are staying. But there is fork there. It seems that some companies go for cheaper worker and having to change them often. I usually get myself employed (if I have to) at companies that tend to keep their workers. This is better for me and better for the company as well. If you constantly fire your people because they don't fit a dress code or you consider them to expensive then I wonder how long this company stays in business. The longer a worker (at least in IT) stays in a company the more efficient he will be for the specific company. If you need a new worker you have to train him on the code and 80% of the special stuff, that nobody knows about anymore, is lost. When I started work 15 years ago we had to pay for our coffe ourself. Now most companies are pying not only the coffee, but also tea or other drinks (cola, juice, water, etc.). They start doing projects to check how their workers are feeling in the company and actually do something about it. This doesn't look to me like companies are going to fire away because of a whim. But I guess it may be different in the revered USA or related countries. I'm glad that I never had to move there.
Rules of society?! It's not like we're having some deep-seeded moralistic debate here. We're talking about a frivolous, antiquated idea that comfort/productivity should take a back-seat to appearance. The idea that one person would be offended because another wasn't wearing a tie is repugnant.
Get the dick out of your ear and pay attention...
Adweek had a write-up a while back about an ad agency that did a twist on the "Casual Friday" fad... They announced "Formal Fridays"; everyone was required to wear either a tuxedo or an evening gown to work. The accompanying picture showed a woman in a glittering floor-length dress, pearls around her neck, and long, white gloves while standing at the copy machine.
Did you read the damn article? A lot of it dealt with tech workers being dickheads, not just what clothes they were wearing.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
Having worked in an office a few years where a very Spartan dress code was required, I have often found that people were straight up evaluated for promotions not on the quality of the persons work, but on their appearance. This office never dealt with customers, never dealt with upper management.
I think that people promoted to management who do not have the credentials for it attempt to make themselves cosmetically better by providing their superiors with the image of a good staff.
The traditional excuse is "People willing to bust their ass to look good will bust their ass to do a good job." - Neglecting the economization fact that people only have so much time to go round. While appearance is nice, it is never more cumulative to the bottom line than productivity.
One place where a dress code does significantly effect is the employee net pay. I end up getting two suits dry cleaned and pressed and a shoe shine per week. A quality suit costs $300-600 range in this country. This is a net expense for the employee, degrading his incentive. While it works out to be only around $40/wk, that's a hard drive a month.
Maybe I'm a bit bitter because my last evaluation read something like "Excellent job - one of the lynch-pins of the organization. But not ready for promotion. Suit ironed, but not pressed." And no, there was no one else who beat me out in performance.
Needless to say, this organization is one of the most inefficient ones in the country and requires massive government subsidies to operate.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
dude, I think you're wearing that tie wrong.
Kind of puts a whole new light on the concept of dressing for success, doesn't it?
They want to tell you how to dress, when to sleep, when to work, when to eat and when to go to the bathroom. They'll make you think like they want you to think.
They want you to fear for your job. They want you to be a slave. And when they'll have succeeded, you won't even realize you are.
True warriors use the Klingon Google
One thing I have noticed over the years is that a company will not promote someone, unless they are already doing that job.
I.e. you aren't made System Manager unless you have been practically managing that system anyway while being a 'Tech Support Analyst'.
Dressing up shows your (sad) employers that you look appropriate for other roles (Team Leader, Management). And with the industry at its current state, I will gladly 'dress up' if it helps me land a job title where I dont have to redefine my skills every 2 years or face being replaced by a graduate.
Playing the game, is another phrase for it. Sad, but at least where I am, true.
Wearing a suit WOULD make me a dickhead. Apparently you've already been affected.
At home:
slippers & robe or whatever: $65/hr
on site:
Causal: $75/hr
Tie: $80/hr
Coat & Tie: $85/hr
Suit: $95/hr
It works for me, and I generally work in causal once the price is settled.
(Posting as anonymous coward, because, well, I'm a coward who wants to be anonymous!)
Life at our teeny dot-com here started out as jeans and tee shirts. Then the CEO determined that investors do not look at code, they look at warm bodies. If said warm bodies look like the guys they hire to roof their houses, then said investors figure that said warm bodies must have washed out of Acme Roofing and decided to become programmers.
Fair? Nope. At least I don't have to wear a suit, but I do have to wear something at least as nice as a polo shirt and slacks.
(In passive-aggressive protest, instead of saying something intelligent to the investors to impress them with my 20+ years of software engineering experience and my MS-CS degree, I grunt "Pleeztah meetcha" and go back to work.)
If you have to dress you know how it can suck to fix a broken network cable under a desk in your Sunday best.
The more people who refuse to dress up the better.
Are the poor geeks not getting things all their own way? Diddums...
Stop whinging.
"Information wants to be paid"
People with these kinds of opinion don't give a rat's behind about productivity - they are simply control freaks, the kind of manager that enjoys the power he has.
And they're dumb - because in the end while the current job market might promise that he always has employees to fill the chairs if he treat them badly he wobnt have *good* employees, as in creative, willing to go that slightly little further then the jobs demands and use their brain power to the employers advantage.
And in THIS kind of economical climate, if you're not the best (and in software this means have the best people) you're toast.
Gilad.
Suit Up Or Ship Out?
This sounds like a change in employment terms to me, and that is always a negotiation not something they can hand down by dictate. I would respond by asking them how much they are prepared to offer in compensation, it unlikely to be enough to get me back in a suit.
No, I'm sure its clipped on correctly.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Here is a question for you, and answer it seriously in your own mind: If you work with someone, does their fashion make a difference in your *professional* opinion of them? If you say yes, then you are probably in some type of managment/sales/marketing role. Those people work off of image, technical people work off of knowledge. That is the way it works. If you are telling me that I have to dress up to make the marketing folks happy, then you are full of crap and need to think about your priorities. Now if you are saying that I need to dress up because I will be working with customers directly, then you may have a point. And I find it pretty naive of you to think that all technical people are slovenly, grumpy, and non-communicative. Hey, I know, let's make them dress uncomfortably, that will improve their demeanor! Maybe we need another mission statement, or Hawaiian shirt day! Quick, someone think of a catchy acronym that outlines our business paridigm initiative.
These are precisely why technical people snicker at the business folks.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Business casual is the biggest pain in the ass. Having to match up stuff that makes an outfit look 'good'. Too much work and too much time in the morning. With a suit I just throw on a shirt and tie and I'm ready to go, Looks sharp too. I know it isnt cheap but it's certainly a worthwhile investment and boy does it make an impression on your employer. As for casual dress? Look, If you're in a business dress or atleast business casual environment, dress the part. Work is not a place to show off your individualality i.e. I only wear blue jeans and evil dead t-shirts. That's what off time is for. I go so far as to bring a change of clothes with me so I end up looking like the ensemble mentioned above :). Finally, if you're in IT; most of you should be able to afford a decent wardrobe.
Peter
www.alphalinux.org
How exactly do you people keep changing from casual to smart clothing every time you need to go visit a client? Does your office have a changing room, or something?
Phone booths.
-- MarkusQ
I like suits, I think they look good. Of course that is a matter of opinion but the disproportionate reaction here amazes me. It's only frigging clothes, its not if they asked you to pierce your ****. I can understand that you would have practical issues, suits get dirty if you drag hardware around all day and that might not be a good idea for a 1000 suit, but if you're behind a desk or in meetings all day, get over it.
What's wrong with wearing clothes that are:
a: clean
b: nice to look at
c: comfortable
For those of you that never heard of c before, if you want/have to wear a suit, nylon and polyester are not the way to go, and there are stores where staff will help you pick the right size clothes.
beauty is only a light switch away
..that grumpy guy who is writing all the code that makes your business successful, and which generates money so YOU can get paid, and have a wonderful house and a wife and a dog.
Get over it. If you want people to be productive, give them a productive environment. Asking them to wear clothes which don't express their creativity or allow them to feel comfort in the workplace (within certain legal boundaries of course, i.e. nudity or obscenity), then you should expect to get cramped, "head-nodding" engineers who can't write their way out of a paper sack.
Once the PHB-types realize it is about COMFORT that drives productivity, and not LOOKS, that drive success, maybe they'll slacken up a bit and watch their profits rise. Also, when job applicants realize that the workplace is a comfortable, easy-going-but-fast-paced place to work, the line will be out the door, without ever advertising for employees.
If you tell everyone that they have to adhere to a strict dress code ("can't leave your cube without a suitcoat on"), you'll be putting ads in the paper to find applicants.
Besides, for most people, they would gladly accept dressing in business-casual over "Funeral" any day, just ask.
This has very little to do with anything real except control. What do most people do when they believe they need to be in control but don't understand what's going on? They exert control over the trivial things they do understand.
Client has no clue about whether your graphical design is good but needs to show they're in control of the project? That red is a bit too bright. Soften it a bit.
Manager has no clue about how long it really takes to write decent software but needs to show they're in control of the project? That's taking entirely too long. Cut everything by half and forget about testing.
Software becomes an employer's market and upper management needs to show those uppity coders who's in control (in preparation for adding 20 hours to your workweek)? There's a new dress code. No exceptions.
How can we afford to ever sleep
So sound again
--ebtg
In short, this is not surprising at all, but it's a bad attitude for any industry to adopt.
The bottom line is that, yes, companies don't have to be ultra-competitive to grab 80% of the tech employees floating around out there, and they can get away with quite a bit right now. But all this does is create a sense of animosity and further arm the generation of mercenaries with zero corporate loyalty, who take a job/check, and bide their time (/me partially raises hand). This market will rebound (it's showing the beginning signs) like every other, and the shoe will be on the other foot. Then, when the best talent bails because of a company's draconian attiude, maybe they'll learn.
I'm not against a business-casual dress code (I find good khakis to be much more comfortable than jeans), but if you want me in here 60-80 hrs./week, late at night, you better be ready for untucked t-shirts and jeans. I've known coders so exhausted/devoted that they fell asleep at the wheel and nearly wrecked their cars (I think most of us do); you'd better believe their managers didn't say shit about their attire.
And IMO, the dot-com culture as it existed is gone forever. Such atmospheres still exist in marketing or advertisizing firms...ohwait, that's basically what the dot-coms were...
RTFP
I think requiring everyone to wear suit and tie is actually not that great an idea, because all that does is enforce conformity to an extreme, which can really stifle creativity, in my humble opinion. I can understand requring suit and tie for a company dealing in the financial and securities business, but not at an IT firm.
Now, requiring minimum standards for business casual is more acceptable. A good clean shirt or polo-style pullover, slacks and non-sporting casual shoes as a minimum works for me.
If my boss came to me and said this I would say ok see ya.
You all need to realized they desperately need us. We walk they collapse. We control the industrys of the world now. Without us "IT" experts there is no economy. We can demand the work environment we want, if we don't get it leave. There are other jobs. If you can't find one start your own company with a lacks work environment and watch the best and brightest flock to your door..
This is our world boys and girls. We are the ones that control the future.
Stupid ad made it into alterslash! jerks! knock it off!
There is one situation where being required to wear a suit to work is beneficial: job-hunting.
If you have an "appointment" during the day, it's a lot more convenient to already be dressed up for the interview than having to return home or change in the car.
When I was working at a company with an informal dress code (no denim, no sporting shoes), employees showing up in suits usually meant that someone had an interview, or wanted everyone to know they were a flight risk.
All this proves is that some people are stupid enough to believe that the way you dress has anything to do with the way you work... or anything else meaningful for that matter.
At least for someone who does not have to deal face to face with customers, it really shouldn't matter whether they come into work wearing a suit and tie, or ripped jeans, a Motley Crue t-shirt and sneakers... as long as the work gets done.
When management learns to start focusing on things (productivity, quality of work) that really matter, and not superficial bullshit (clothes, hair, etc.) it will be better for everybody.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
Hey! Sounds like someone just made a good argument for telecommuting. Dress code? What dress code?
Like it or not how we dress is still important. Do you really want to take your wife out to a nice restaurant (where you will probably be spending upward of $200 for the meal) where the waiters are wearing jeans and t-shirts. Do you really want guests showing up in shorts and sneakers to a formal wedding that you have spent a lot of time an money planning? I don't necessarly like getting dressed up in the morning, but I do it because I am expected to.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha
I've never worn a suit at my work I've have never even seen my CEO wear a suit I've never seen our chief investor wear a suit except halloween. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa
I like things that are sweet and not things that are lame. --
As the article says, people will have to work harder, in less pleasant environments, doing less interesting work. In short, closer to the kind of life managers and accountants are forced to live. It is an act of kindness to insist on ties for those geeks, for the same reason the rest of the company has to wear them: To reduce the blood flow to the brain, so they will not feel so much of the pain.
In Murphy We Turst
And then were given a "business casual fashion show" by a local retailer. Their definition of business casual didn't match our company's, however - they say that any shirt iwth a logo isn't allowed, but I see a couple vendor-logo'd polos every day.
If you think dressing like someone is a prerequisite for communicating with them then I can only hope you never have kids. You'd either end up one of those embarssing people who dress as if they are 14 at age 40, or not communicating with them.
I should be able to not be a team player, to dress slovenly[...]
`Team player' is management speak for `sucker', and anyone whose only options are being told what to wear or dressing slovenly needs to go back to mummy.
My policy is that if they worry more about the clothes than the work, then I'll subcontract to a showroom dummy and stay home collecting the money.
_O_
.|< The named which can be named is not the true named
One time during college I let my hair grow a little long, for me that's past the collar and my beard about an inch long with no trimming. I had some older clothes and went into a computer store(about 10 years ago). No one would give me the time of the day. I learned a quick lesson: right or wrong people will judge you on how you dress. And it's not limited to the yuppies. Goto some hacker convention with a three piece suit and you will also be judged. Just the way it is.
Where I work just about anything is allowed. But it is a very small successful company and the owner is smart enough to let actions speak louder than clothes. But when clients come he expects us to look decent(no shorts and sandals, etc).
What a complete load of rubbish.
Well all that argument would be fine if dressing up actually helped the bottom line, but it doesn't.
It's actually rather shallow if you think about it. We look good so the company must be good. Kind of like painting up a broken down building. Looks good, but just you wait till a good windstorm. Perception over substance.
I've never had problems or been spoken to about my style of dress, except for once when I walked into a room full of execs wearing a dusty blue jumpsuit (I had been crawling around a rack floor, plugging shites in). Typically, I wear dark blue or black pants (the zip-off "hey-now-i'm-a-pair-of-shorts" casual kind), a black or grey (plain, usually) t-shirt, and my light blue jacket. Jacket usually has assorted geek stuffs in the pockets, giving it that techy feel, but, anywho, my style of dress is something I've been worried about. I'm slated to begin an internship at a local tech company (MapInfo.com) and afraid they'll want me to change my attire. I mean, I don't mind wearing a tie, I just don't have many of them to begin with (two, actually. :P). I'm also happy having my toolkit on me at all times, espicially doing tech work. I can diagnose almost any techical problem with just the stuff in my pockets. It's grand. :)
Thoughts?
Informatus Technologicus
By consulting, I mean running my own business as a software consultant - not a temp worker, I deal directly with the client and don't deal with brokers.
If I have a face-to-face meeting with a client, I will wear a nice shirt, but otherwise I could do my work naked if I cared to.
However, I have found that I can't get it together to work unless I do dress. I can't program in a bathrobe for some reason. But right at the moment (taking a break from my current contract to post here), I am in fact wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
When I had to examine programmers that were to be recruited I found that the most skilled ones didn't wear ties and suits.
Is it me, or is Australia becoming a capitalist laden society?
People should be taking note on this point.
"The market has tightened significantly and whether people like it or not, you're going to have to work a lot harder in this environment than you have ever done in your life"
If you're just sitting on your fat ass all day, tapping a keyboard, it's not like it matters what you wear. You're not capping an oil rig. Grow the fuck up. You're an adult with a job that presumably is ultimately necessary for people to earn their paychecks. Dress like it.
Those who bitch about suits/ties being uncomfortable need to buy ones that fit. Go to a place where they'll measure you. It's not difficult. Wear a properly fitted suit and you'll realize that jeans that are actually tighter and more confining.
It's an ugly but true fact that if you dress better, people treat you better. People in stores are more attentive, and women are more likely to give you a first chance if at first glance you look like you have a job with responsibilities, rather than some guy who unloads trucks at UPS.
Wearing a suit does not help your skills, but it will affect how management feels about you. It may be "selling out" to dress like management, but when it comes time for cutbacks, do you think some superficial manager is going to cut the people who at least look like they fit in with everyone else or the guys in t-shirts who dress like gas station attendants?
In financial terms, if you have pricing power, you can do what you want. If you don't, it's called deflation and you do what the customer wants or you go out of business. As an employee, you are in a business relationship with your employer. Which of you can go down the block for a substitute? This is why you can walk out and get a cheap burger from half a dozen chains. But if you want a hand-built guitar from the Fender Custom Shop, you pay their price.
I'd prefer to work for a company of hackers wearing what we like, out input to the company being valued, our thoughts heard and having a greater sense of wellbeing than earning lots of money wearing a suit, sitting in a cubicle, not having a voice, not being allowed to contribute my creative flow to the company mainstream.
Took me a long time to see this, money is not the end game, it's trying to retain as much hair as possible.
Here's an old quote from a source I do not remember...(damn I should claim it as mine!)
:) )
'There is something wrong when you report to work with a noose around your neck.'
Seriously, what it boils down to for me, is the policy should apply to everyone. I remember wearing suits at United Parcel Service. I crawled around in a warehouse under desks in a suit. What annoyed me was seeing all the guys in suits, and the women wearing sensable shoes, kakis, and a polo shirt. (ok, maybe there were other reasons for their attire
Eventually UPS went business casual and I guess my point is if the policy is across the board and is a bad policy, then it'll get corrected. Just wait out this change...heck, I've out lasted 12 managers. I think I can wait out one more to get a new policy.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
There are three types of people in business.
;)
1. Those so low down on the ladder no one cares what they wear.
2. People in the middle who wear nice clothes to make themselves appear professional.
3. Those so high up on the ladder no one cares what they wear.
Which one are you?
Rules of society?
I'm a member of society. I work with other people, as a team. Most of us don't wear suits. Nobody has ever even asked me to.
its called conditioning you fuck. air conditioning.
"A man who has at length found something to do will not need to get a new suit to do it in; for him the old will do.... Only they who go to soirees and legistlative halls must have new coats, coats to change as often as the man changes in them. But if my jacket and trousers, my hat and shoes, are fit to worship God in, they will do; will they not? ... I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes... If you have any enterprise before you, try it in your old clothes. All men want, not something to do with, but something to do, or rather something to be.... Otherwise, we shall be found sailing under false colors, and be inevitably cashiered at last by our own opinion, as well as that of mankind."
-- Thoreau
The better dressed they are, the bigger lies they tell. It just screams "ENRON" to me.
Never trust a man wearing a coat and tie!
God invented headphones so we could wear jeans and sandals?!?!?
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
the ops crew are still occasionally found barefoot though that's rare.
this is at a 200+ person officepark company that's not really a startup anymore.
individuals can and do affect corporate culture, have some spine and shape your company as you see fit, or don't complain when one you don't like is foisted on you.
La via sola al paradiso incommincia nel inferno
One benefit was that since the my tripped spanned two weekends I was expecting to be completely bored. Instead, I got a few invitiations from local employees. One in which involved a stellar house party! Call me crazy, but if I would have been wearing a suit I don't think I would have gotten the invite. At least let's hope not ;)
I think one of the problems a lot of people have with suits is that they've only worn one or two suits for graduation and interviews. These were probably three times or more expensive than their casual wear even if they bought the cheapest suit available and they didn't even think about buying the next more expensive suit.
You can find more comfortable suits if you are willing to pay a bit more. Suits don't even have to be dry clean only. My Tilley jacket is comfortable, has ten working pockets, and the cleaning instruction tag says "Give it hell!"
Appeal to Employers:
While working at my company during the dot-com bust, I've had plenty of benefits taken away from me. Quarterly 5% bonuses, subsidized vending machines that only cost 25 cents for anything (including Ice Cream), free parties every friday night at a local club, and 20 - 30% off most local stores. One by one those benefits were taken away. I understand why, these things cost money. But requiring your entire staff to wear a suit and tie doesn't cost you anything unless it is a customer facing department. Myself, the lowly programmer that never sees a a customer should be able to wear something casual. At the very least just some nice pants and a nice shirt, like a polo shirt or something similar. It makes me feel comfortable, work more relaxed, doesn't cost you anything, and you can call it a benefit.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
I think this was in a ZZTop song once.... "cause all the girls love a well-dressed man". Not to sound shallow, but... Trust me guys, suits look good, they are instant chick magnets, especially when you're the only guy wearing one, and everyone around you is in casuals. Something about the fact that you took the time to put on something decent. Works all the time.
Veni, vidi, vici.
"The business community was recently confused when a new species, the techhead, arrived on the scene, with a unique form of dress. Initially the new species was accepted, but since the tech crash their uniform now signals "I have a lot of weird ideas, most of which will lose you money, drive down your stock price and possibly destroy your business"."
Oh now that would be rich. The dot-BOOM was driven by guys in suits, into the ground. Compared to that. Tech guys with their anti-social stigma are positively tame by comparison.
I'm wearing an AudioGalaxy t-shirt and a plaid flannel. I call the VP of IT by his first name. OTOH, I make $9.50/hr :(
Yes, you are programmers (sys admins, network admins etc etc), and yes, you have different job functions then the other people in your company. That does not mean that you can be a slob. You are not indespensible. You are not irreplacable. I dont have to take your BFOH attitude and your grubby 'Chix Dig Linux' t shirts. In the dot-com days you could swing your weight around and move from company to company, but now isnt that case anymore.
d =3 067&t=organizations&sid=0&pid=0
You are at your job, you should treat it like a job. Keep your shoes on. There is no proof to the 'dressing casual increases productivity.' So dress neat, dress clean, and do your job. The problem is that the stereo typical image of a IT geek isnt a guy in jeans comabts and an iron t shirt but instead someone with cheetos stains and a 3 day havent showered funk. If that perception were otherwise, the situation would be drastically different.
In fact there have been some cases to prove that similar dress and dress codes INCREASE resiliance in the face of a problem.
http://hbsworkingknowledge.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?i
And please, I dont care if you are casual dress or not, use deoderant.
"Dress code
1. When there are visitors, you must wear clothes."
Flannel shirts are defined as "business casual".
This idea has been floating around for a while. It's a simple issue of control. An "I want you to come into work with a suit and tie because I'm the boss and I say so" type deal. Most companies I have worked for still have the same dress code they always had.
There is absolutely no scientific proof to show that "dressing up" at work helps productivity. Speaking for myself, I find that the more comfortable I am, the more focused I am. Being more comfortable usually means a decent polo shirt and a pair of jeans.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
The two successful companies I've worked for both settled on the general pattern of first sheltering the customers from the geeks while the geeks are being geeks. As soon as there is a weird technical problem, or the customers need to see a freak show, they are introduced to the technical staff. We have a few key customers who just eat up a team of us working on a problem, drawing on whiteboards, typing, and yelling down the hall, pointing at code, at each other, etc.
As for those companies returning to some dress code, where there is not proximity to the customer, you will find people who wear suits who are disturbed by other people who are not wearing suits. As far as I can tell, it's some sort of nakedness, protection and projected image thing. The suit-wearer may expound on how poorly the khaki's reflect on the company, but the body language will be the same as if you are geek-nekked. Yes, they are threatened by your 'leet-geek-nekked-ness, their inability to control it, and the fact that you are not hiding behind a suit like everyone else. Read "Dressing for Success" and some other books for the choices made when buying a suit and how/why the affect other people's judgment of the suit-wearer.
It works the other way around, as well. Many of the people I work with will distrust, either actively or passively, anyone wearing a suit. If you are wearing a suit, you are automatically categorized as shady, untrustworthy and probably criminal. Many of our customers wear suits when dealing with mgmt and sales. When it's a technical issue, they shift to kaks and polos.
The company I work for is seeing a backlash against the technical staff for perceived excesses during the boom. At least that's my best take on it. So now, the rats all have their swimming caps on, but aren't needing to jump, because other companies are flying helo's out to pick them up. In other words, we've got excellent people here with irreplaceable domain expertise, and we're losing them because upper management is trying to bf them. Yes, we're losing them in spite of the industry slump. Out of all those tech people in the world looking for work, our people are landing jobs. We're losing them for stupid reasons. Middle management is horrified because 1) their fief-base is eroding 2) upper management is doing and saying the weirdest and strangest things which are serve only to make software developers lives miserable at the company and 3) middle-mgmt is next. It's a software company, and a software company needs two things: product to sell, and sellers of the product. The dress code is just another way to reduce our ability to produce product.
-- They say you die a little bit each day. Have a nice day!
suits are uncomfortable, infact in a sit on you ass all day job, there too fucking hot!!!!! Ok if I worked outside, i might consider waring somthing designed to keep the heat in like a tie, but in an office there highly un-practical, spread pungent smells of sweety armpits, take far too long to shop for and get fitted properly.
An I hear to work or look pritty?
hmm..... The only suits I see comming in that direct would be law suits.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Just a though, by-the-by: someone once gave me a alternative viewpoint on this "suit" issue:
a common way of regarding the dreaded pinstripe is to consider it restricting, regimental, uncomfortable, conformist to the degree of being reactionary, ugly, that the tie is a tourniquet on the neck allowing less blood to reach the brain, that it makes corporate drones out of human beings, et cetera et cetera.
An alternative is to say that it's democratic... Ask yourself what a non-suit-wearer is communicating by wearing the jeans & tee-shirt, if it could be formulated in words. It might be something along the lines of "I don't need to do that shit. Why? Because I'm good. And because I'm good, I can afford to wear whatever I find comfortable."
If this is anything close to the truth, it is an affront. It's saying "me: cool - no suit. You: uncool - suit".
One nice thing about suits is that they make everyone appear the same. As it is, in the world of suits, there is no immediate cue as to the status of anyone walking about in a business building (hence the Japanese culture of handing over business cards immediately upon meeting someone: there is less of a democratic tradition in Japan, so they have to use some other cue to check how low to bow (as it were)).
And this I find pretty cool. Even if it is complete bullshit, at lease there is a token regard for the sentiment that everyone in a certain group (i.e. a company) is, on some level, equal: equally valuable, equally respectable, equally responsible.
Anyway. I'm just saying that it ain't necessarily all bad. And yes, I do own suits, and I wear one about once every two weeks when visiting clients, mainly because I don't want to rub it in that yes, actually I can wear whatever I want, and they can't.
And since karma is there to burn, an anecdote: A co-worker and BMW-driver told me about a breakdown he experienced on the highway in Italy. He calls the "BMW tech support", and what does he get?
Two mechanics, arriving in a nice but not opulent beemer, dressed in very professional dark business suits & ties covered by gleaming white overalls.
History relates that they did not only look sharper that *any* traveller on some god-forsaked dusty Italian highway has the right to, but the fixed the problem, too.
yes, we have no bananas
"The US has a history (hundreds of years) of indentured servatude. That's how my family got here from Europe."
The United States didn't have indentured servatude, the nations colonizing North America did.
Indentured Servatude ended before the United States won the Revolutionary War, but slavery continued.
If requested, I would gladly put on a dress and lipstick and hum the melody to Eternal Flame by the Bangles if someone would just give me a chance at a job. Dress code is the least of my worries.
I wake up every morning and thank the universe that I have an IT job in academia. I get to sit around from 8:00-5:00 at my desk, in my _own_ office with my nice linux boxes and my Dell server rack, write PHP and play with barcode scanners and RFid tags all day, manage the servers, put out fires, etc. All this, in my khakis (because they're comfortable) in the winter or my shorts in the summer and a t-shirt all year round. Everyone else dresses in "business casual" anyways, because they're faculty. They pretty much expect me to be wearing a t-shirt and Birkenstocks. No one is ever going to fire me because I basically have the professional/scientific equivalent of tenure. I get 16 hours a month of vacation time and 12 hours of sick, am more or less shielded from the rigors of an unstable economy, and get a guaranteed 3-5% raise each year. Then I drive home in my Accord EX V6 and again thank the universe for our excellent system of institutions of higher learning.
God invented headphones so we could wear jeans and sandals?!?!?
Yes, glad you are clued in now. Furthermore, Al Gore invented the internet so we could use modern plumbing facilities.
Leave it to marketing to ruin things. Where I am at, I was given a talk about wearing jeans. Marketing people complained. I am now in a different position and I have to move equipment, do cables and if I get bitched at for wearing jeans, I would ask for a clothing allowance.
Dress codes are bullshit. Nothing wrong with jeans.
I work for one of the UK's national utility companies on their IT Helpdesk, I also am occasionally asked to do some coding if they need a small app to do something. On the helpdesk, we're not customer facing, no one we speak to knows who we are or what we look like because we rarely meet any of them.
:-P
My arguement for a while has been why we need to wear a shirt and tie if we never have to meet our users. When we do actually have casual clothes days, the general atmosphere is a lot more relaxed and people are happier about being stuck at a desk in front of a VDU all day.
As for the hours (I saw a couple of the early posts on this), we work from 8am - 6pm and 8am - 1pm on saturdays. If I'm working on a coding project, I will only code during those hours because 1) it's all I'm paid for (we don't get overtime), and 2) I like to have my evenings to myself.
I know that if I did have a job where I did coding all the time, I would want to be able to wear casual clothes as dressing in my normal state helps me relax and as such, I'll get more done rather than feeling that this tie is somehow blocking my thought processes!
In my mind, having to wear suit/shirt and ties is an out-dated way of doing things, managers say it helps you look professional and gives the correct look for the company. Whereas I say, as long as the employees are happy and the work gets done, does it really matter what they wear??
I currently work in the IT department of a Japanese owned auto assembly plant in the midwest. Everybody wears a 'uniform' of grey pants and a white shirt. People working on the assembly line wear t-shirts, others like myself have short sleeved oxfords. The nice thing is that we get a yearly uniform allowance and you don't spend my time deciding what to wear. The one downside is that the company logo is stamped on the pants and shirts.
...and we're still casual now that it's gone. (For us, "casual" basically means no shorts, sweats, or t-shirts, and yes, you must wear clothes every day, no exceptions. ;-) Letting your people be comfortable while they work isn't "hip" or "revolutionary", it's good business sense, and it don't cost nothin'.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
(Symantec), the clothes are not strict. In fact, it feels like a dotcom in a corporation. Management doesn't really care as long as employees and contractors work long hours. :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Well, where I work we have the dress code of "clothes required" and that is it. Some guys wear business casual and some where t-shirts and tennis shoes. You can check us out here. Anyway, my thought it is this, most computer guys (programmers,scientists, etc.) are problem solvers.That is their job. To solve problems with the tools they are given or to give users the appropriate tools to solve their problems.I think it does not matter what they are wearing. As long as they solve those problems. And if you are all jazzed up in a suit then you (in my opinion) give the impression you are trying to sell something and not solve my problems. So, until they give me a cool 'computer scientist lab coat' I am going to wear what I am comfortable in and be the problem solver I am supposed to be. :)
Can you see Iron City here?
I joined the job market in 1990 and I also had some money saved up. I bought a new Mustang GT. I was told by a relative who was a job placement counselor at a University to be careful when I went to interviews.
She told me to park the Mustang in a place to where the potential manager couldn't see the car I drove. I asked why and she mentioned that Mustang would reflect badly to a potential employer and would show him that I supposedly have money and he think I don't need a job and by having a muscle car, it would show me as being irresponsible as well. Some psycho bullshit like that.
Place I went to work at, there was an old school large corporate type of guy, about mid 40's who I didn't interview with but met on my first day at work. I left for lunch and he remarked to one of the people who I became good friends with that I was a spoiled SOB. He then mentioned that driving a car like that reflected badly on the company. Kind of what my relative mentioned. I still think it is bullshit.
I now drive a heavily modified truck for 4 wheeling and the same with a Jeep. If someone makes a comment, I will tell them to where to stick it.
Can I expense my clothing bill? How about a tax deduction? (I'm serious -- if the clothing standards are "required" by the company, then there should be some compensation.)
The thing about this and any management-mandate is, if you are not replaceable and management realizes this, (and not being able to replace you means failure of the department, division, or company) then you have virtually unlimited bargaining power.
Otherwise, you need to toe the line. It's that simple.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
These guys have some excellent insights into knowledge-based industries. Most of their examples are for software development. One of them is if you don't interact with clients/customers, there is no reason why you should need to dress up. The suit and tie will only distract you from the work you should be doing. You are less productive. Dressing up is more about asserting management's authority than anything else.
Random is the New Order.
Frankly, you are the exception to the rule in every sense. Most employees in the tech industry are having to follow rules more closely. At the same time most of them have under 5 years with their current company and under 10 in the industry. Around here [large software company] some folks have to snap in line with the recent changes while other developers whose work is more profitable get away with murder. Well, maybe not murder, but poor dress and borderline sexual harassment.
Publish the names of the companies enforcing those dress-codes so I can STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS.
They think *THEY* have the power? WRONG! *I* have the power!
Thank you.
The market has tightened significantly and whether people like it or not, you're going to have to work a lot harder in this environment than you have ever done in your life.
Apparently this guy has never worked at a dot.com startup. I've worked for two, and worked my butt off at both, rarely working less than 80+ hours/week. The reason I worked so hard wasn't because of the paycheck, the stock options or some suit/PHB telling me to, it was because I was personally invested in seeing the companies and their products/services succeed. This is not to say that people outside of the dot.coms don't also work hard -- they do. It's just simplistic (and inaccurate) to portray dot.commies as slackers.
The notion that a suit looks more professional or mature is also crap. First of all, I know a lot of suits who are neither professional nor mature (and utterly incapable of communication). And secondly, I seem to remember a time not too long ago when women and people of color were considered to be less "professional" than white men, and thus unworthy of higher-ranking positions. Please tell me we're not headed back in that direction!
Are you kidding? Fast food uniforms are more strict than anybody's! I flipped fish at a popular chain for two years, and I'd say 50% of my fat boss's ranting was due to either:
1) smoking in break room
2) shirt not tucked in
the other 50% of his rants were:
3) his girlfriend's fifth pregnancy (by him)
4) his dominion over the game StarCraft
My first day of work, I was chastised severely for not wearing a hat, my long hair drooping into the burgers.
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
Putting on a suit isn't going to make all "computer guys" MAGICALLY adherent to the rules of society, either.
If your IT fellow has a bad attitude, what he's wearing isn't the problem.
Ties are an out moded fashion. Corporate dress codes are about the traditonal male dominiation hierarchy. Simply, it is about power and control - they have it and workers do not. IF enough people refused to wear ties then they would go out of fashion - no employees, no business.
My job involves me programming perl software, and not having to interact with anyone. Although we do have a semblance of a dress-code, it is never enforced. I wear t-shirts, sweatpants, and flipflops.
"We had gay burglars the other night. They broke in and rearranged the furniture." -Robin Williams
Look at it this way. I am the beancounter that counts the beans at my company. One of my cost centers is IT. The IT Director gets money from me in the form of an annual budget. However I have a fairly low opinion of the IT department because the only time I ever see one of those guys, they always look unshaven and tred around in "sneaker" and jeans. All the more obvious because, apart from the shop-floor workers, who are in overalls, everyone else in here manages to wear a tie. I am reluctant to increase my IT spending because my *perception* of the department is that they're all just slobs. This kind of stuff hits IT harder than you think.
If your idea of creativity is having a different tie than others, you probably also use phrases like 'thinking outside the box' and listen to such creative bands as Hootie and the Blowfish.
Sure, ties are all creative and such. That's why you see so many artists and rock stars wearing them.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
Learn to tie a bow-tie. It isn't that difficult. A bow-tie is as comfortable as wearing nothing at all, looks cool, AND will annoy your boss, because it is unconventional. But technically it IS still a tie. It also doesn't get in the way when you lean over, and when you start on unpaid overtime you can untie it and let it jauntily drape.
God is real unless declared integer
Heh, heh, heh.
You obviously haven't noticed the trend towards eliminating public phone booths altogether or making them little more then a phone on a pole with a little cover over it that's there merely to keep most of the rain off the phone (the phone company could care less if the user gets wet).
Nowadays, Clark Kent would get arrested for public indecency when it came time to change into his tights. (He'd still have the Supply Room at the Daily Planet, though.)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
that makes me feel wonderful. Putting a suit on in the morning is a wonderful routine. Shirt. Slacks. Cufflinks (yes. cufflinks.) Tie. Jacket. Handkerchief. Dress shoes. Topcoat. I walk out of the house feeling like a million bucks, and I really think that's the point - people carry themselves differently in REAL dress clothes.
I used to wear a suit on my job hunts. I'd walk into an interview thinking I was the king of the world, and I was never unemployed for more than a month. To me, it's not how you look that's so important, it's the aura of...professionability...you radiate and how it makes you feel.
I mean damnit guys, what did all you naysayers go to interviews in, a speedo? You can only trust your CV for so much, and realistically it's not the first thing the brass sees, YOU are. Yeah yeah, unbiased, best qualified, screw the tie, yadayada. It's not realistic, and if you've gotta wear a suit, then wear the friggin' suit.
Triv
it doesnt have to do with just the clothing. This is an article about the entire culture that they want to squash. If you had read the article, you would know that it's not just about visibility. The article talks about wanting to force more work out of fewer people. This is nothing new...businesses are always after more work at the expense of your sanity, ignoring any effect that will have on the quality of the work being done.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
How do they enforce the pantyhose rule to make sure you are not wearing thigh-highs?
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
At one time, infantrymen wore neckties into battle (or so I'm told; I'm not that old). I imagine that the folks that insist on everyone wearing ties to work either learned their management skills during WWII or were mentored by someone who did. Times change. Too bad the managers who insist on this dress code haven't.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Congratulations, sir! I think you just hit it! The two key issues here are loyalty and trust. An employer who gives you the leeway to be comfortable at work (right now I'm wearing jeans, a turtleneck, and a zip-up sweatshirt-jacket, and my usual nice Doc Martens), and gives you the leeway to take a few minutes off and read Slashdot (or whatever) is an employer you're more likely to stay with out of loyalty. Likewise, a workplace where employees don't feel that Big Brother is breathing down their necks every minute of every day is a good workplace to be in.
Employers who bitch about employees' not trusting them or lacking loyalty to the company have to realize it works both ways, and one of the best ways to put loyalty and trust (which is also tied up in that antiquated concept respect) into practice is to act on it, instead of just talking about it.
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
I've sold my soul for this job. I've given up my rock 'n roll lifestyle (mostly), cut my hair (well, I was sick of long hair anyway) and made myself go to company functions (they aren't so bad). I've let corporate culture chisel away at my time and values, and in return I take an ever-increasing pile of filthy lucre, and zero job security.
But even I have my limits.
I draw the line at business casual. I will not wear golf shirts with company logos on them. I will not wear khakis. I will not wear a shirt and tie when a big customer is visiting the R&D department.
On hallowe'en, I will wear "business drag" (full suit and tie) for fun. Every year I will argue with someone that it is a costume and, as such, counts toward the money we raise for the food bank (for anyone who dresses up, the company donates money to a cause).
Biziz casual is my last bastion of free will, my line in the sand. I've sold my soul, but it will not be wearing a polo shirt. I don't have much self-respect left, but what little I have left, I guard jealously.
-- clvrmnky
You believe that you are special, that somehow the rules do not apply to you. Obviously you are mistaken. This company is one of the top software companies in the world because every single employee understands that they are part of a whole. Thus if an employee has a problem, the company has a problem. The time has come to make a choice, Mr. Anderson. Either you choose to be wear a tie from this day forward or you choose to find yourself another job. Do I make myself clear?
-B
by the menswear industry, which is fucked because people have figured out that they don't need to spend $500 on a suit to look professional. At least here in California dresscodes are dead, dead, dead.
sulli
RTFJ.
I'll dress how ever ya like. Just hire me.
Let's not beat around the bush, you may pretend you like it, you might think it makes you look sharp, but deep down you know it is only cultural conditioning that makes you think so. You would look just as sharp in a Star Trek costume as in these bland, antiquated, frivolous uniforms, if that is what everybody else wore.
And make no mistake, a suit is a uniform. It may not your name on the collar, but it serves the same purpose. You are indistiguishable, you are part of the team. Your identity does not matter so much as the persona you present. It says to your client "I'm willing to go to great expense to impress you". It says to your boss "I'm willing to go to great effort to kiss your ass".
Every time you go to the dry cleaners, every time you spend a day's pay on the next day's clothes, every time your spill your drink and curse the waste that is forced upon you, you are submitting your will to the superficial whims of those effete do-nothings who nonetheless lord over you in the social hierarchy.
Nothing says "I'm your bitch" like wearing a suit. Remember that.
I would agree with you if those same "rules of society" stated I didn't have to work 70 hour work weeks because the management weasles have managed to slash the timeline in half and double the requirements. Either give me the same normal hours that all the sales people get or give me special privileges. If I have to code for 36 hours straight, I better damn well be comfortable or I will be a complete bitch.
Fitting the clothes to the job is a good point. I overlooked it because I tend to work only with coders. If there's servers to move around, it's generally me who has to do it.
I think my biggest frustration is all the IT people that somehow think they're better than everyone else or above others and should get special treatment because they're so fscking intelligent. If they truly were that fscking smart, they'd realize they're providing a service, like everyone else, including the road cleaners and gas pump attendants. True, it takes more training than those jobs, but the bottom line is they are a service provider, even as an employee. If they're that much better than others that they can flaunt rules, then I'm sure they're so smart they don't need a job because they can just go out and start their own company and make millions.
Personally, I've never had trouble finding a new provider for ANY service when I needed to change.
I just recently was hired (1-1.5mos ago) at a software development company, where we can basically wear whatever we want.. just no shorts. But jeans and t-shirts are acceptable. We do our support over the phone, so appearance isn't as necessary for that. However, the rare time we have to go on-site, of course they expect us to dress up. (Khaki's and button up shirt).
:/
hell, we even still get free drinks and free breakfast on friday mornings. And this company has grown by 25% over the past year, and it doesn't look like it's going to stop soon!
I feel sorry for those who have to wear a tie while they're infront of a screen for 8+ hours a day.
Sigh. It's the same old story. When a company is controlled by people who actually do the work, or at least understand it, crap that doesn't matter doesn't matter. When the company is controlled by bean counters and hall monitors, crap that doesn't matter matters.
It's kind of like the warning labels on the items we buy. Somewhere, someone has decided that Lysol(tm) would taste good on fries. Hence, the "For external use only" label.
If there wasn't some stinky, socially dysfunctional, overweight IT person that offended others by their general odor, personal hygiene or lack of self-esteem. We wouldn't HAVE the dress code dictated to us.
Of all these comments I'm sure there are some who were hired "sight unseen" and by credentials alone. But this is NOT the norm, a suit & a tie, no matter how much you bitch and moan IS the norm. Just as common as references and resumes!
I've nothing of importance to say, now go away before I taunt you with a second sig!
Free your software and your mind will follow.
I have found that companies with a strict dress code are more concerended with power structures and and authority. They tend to be very hierarchical, to the point of being top heavy. They also tend to be very un-dynamic. They fear change. I understand the importance of putting up a good front to people, but the support staff has other problems to worry about.
My current employer has no dress code, I have to work in pajamas before just to check. They didn't care. When I first walked in to interview, I was announced as "Hey, there is some guy here in a tie."
The management and marketing people dress well. Thgey have to grease palm and all of that stuff, so it makes since. But when we [developer] have to go along there is no dress code other than showered and covered, yes this was because of a certain incedent. I think the bosses like to have the long haired guy in the back of the room to call on every now and again to answer technical questions. Too me it seems to add a bit of weight to the answer.
just my $1.28
-jj-
Yah, I know there are comfortable suits out there... my current suit is lightweight, good quality, and really not a bother to wear at all. I have only that one suit, though, used for weddings and funerals (and other special occaisions). So, if I accept a position where suits are required business attire, I am now in a situation where I can expect to shell out:
This comes to ~$4000 in the first year of employment; ~3000/year afterward (presuming I pick up an extra suit or two to replace worn ones, new styles, new ties, etc.)
This is roughly the same as taking a $6000/year pay cut from the offered salary.
So, really, this is no different from a company saying "Well, if you want to work here, you'll have to make your own parking arrangements - we don't cover that" or "Well, if you want to work here, you'll have to find your own vision care package - we don't cover that." The company is trying to take something that benefits them (not paying for parking, not payiung for vision coverage, presenting a professional image) and shift the cost of that onto the individual employee.
That's why I treat working attire the same way I treat medical coverage, paid parking downtown, and other benefits. Yes, I will consider a job working somewhere where suit and tie is required attire... but working there will cost me money, and I expect my salary to reflect that added expense. Conversely, if I accept a job somewhere else where attire is casual or buisness casual, I can live with a lower salary, because I avoid the bother of having to wear a uniform to work.
In other words... if my wearing professional attire on the job benefits the company, I expect to be compensated for that effort on my part, the same way I am compensated for my other efforts as an employee. If the company is unwilling to pay me for doing something that benefits the company, then they really shouldn't be surprised when I say "No".
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
other color jeans are OK, though. Shocks should be worn, too. That's the general office rule.
I was *shocked* when my soon-to-be boss mentioned this in my second interview. He said, "just to make us feel more professional". Of 10 or 11 gigs in my lifetime, I'd never worked one with any dress code... typically you're judged by the logos on your t-shirt collection... managers are usually happy if programmers bother to shower...
I had to go buy a whole weeks worth of new clothes. I asked for and recieved a starting bonus to help pay for it all.
Turns out, it's not a hard-and-fast rule *at all*. It's really more just in case we have clients on site ( it's a *small* office, so there's a chance a visitor could spot a even programmer ). No biggie. Hawai'ian shirts fit the rule... I could probably wear anything... I now have a collection of grey, black, and kaki jeans.
Apparently, they come originally from the Ruff that aristos used to wear (French Aristos as it 'appens). The Tudors broke with French Fashion and we got the Crevat instead (and, incedentally, the forerunner of the 3 piece suit at the same time!), and this mutated into a tie over time.
All of the above were useless fashion items just designed to make us look good - like High Heels for the ladies.
The best thing about wearing a tie is the point where you take the bastard things off! I hate 'em!
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
beside being a nice noose for some spinning fan to grab, a handle for some annoying rugrat to yank, or a leash for some even more annoying grabby BIATCH. I wear casual clothes appropriate to the variety of tasks I have to do, NONE of which involve dealing with the public, ALL of which involve keeping whining developers and managers hardware working. F%#%#%^% em, when I go on vacation half of them do too, the ones that don't end up with stuff piled on my desk for fixing when I get back. If they want to let me go for not wearing a tie so be it. I can find another job, it is the half baked code monkies that are in a crush anyways. There are LOTS of jobs for certified hardware techs with broad experience backgrounds.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
They can be, and they can be PhD+ whizzkids wearing $1000 dollar suits. They can also be the same whizzkids in jeans and a T-shirt, or spoilt brat rich kids in a snazzy suit that daddy bought who have yet to discover the word "shower". I'm not sure there's any great corrollation between what they wear and what they can do.
And what if their idea of style is different to yours, and vice versa?
I'm lucky enough to have recently moved to a new job in a very nice office. The company is doing better than most in the current climate, and the staff know their stuff. We have an informal dress code (and, wherever possible, a pretty informal policy on everything else, too). I have a postgraduate qualification, and I'm among the least academically qualified people there; everyone else on my immediate team has at least a PhD from a respected university. This is not an office full of morons... And yet, most people wear smart cas or jeans+T to work. The only person who regularly wears a tie is our MD, and since he owns the place, that's obviously his choice.
Personally, I'm sometimes more comfortable wearing a shirt and tie to work. I find it helps me to put my "professional" face on, and I like to look reasonably smart when I'm working. I also find that changing back when I get home helps me to let go of that "professional" face and go back to my regular persona. OTOH, I have no problem with the office "dress code" at my new place, and I certainly don't judge my colleagues by their ability to tie their tie in five different ways. I'm far more impressed by the quality of the products they produce.
I'd draw the line at poor personal hygiene, but personally, I'd see an office that let its staff dress comfortably (whatever that means to them) as the one showing respect. There are obviously times when a "professional" image is in order -- visiting client sites, sales people, etc. -- but as a general rule, I fail to see why it's necessary, or what companies hope to gain by taking away what is essentially a free perk.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I had to wear a tie every day when I consulted at Enterprise. The official dress code requires pressed pants and a jacket, with the same ludicrous requirement for wearing the jacket whenever coming to or leaving the building. (St. Louis, while perhaps not as hot as Texas, sees downright miserable temperatures and humidity in the summer.) Fortunately, we were allowed some slack in IT and just had to wear the tie. :-)
:-)
Anyway, my point is this: if you are lucky enough to choose between two positions--one with a formal dress code, the other (business) casual--be sure to factor in the cost of shirts, ties, pants, shoes, dry cleaning, and time for ironing. This makes a bit of a dent in the salary. Trust me. Having a tie dry cleaned will cost you almost as much as a new tie (learned the hard way). And don't think for a minute that you can just run it through the machine on "delicate" (also learned the hard way).
My experience has been that a dress code is much more than a dress code. In most cases, it serves as a barometer of management's general attitude toward the staff. (Exceptions apply, of course, in cases where the staff is highly visible to clients, et al.) A formal dress code generally indicates a management structure focused on control. Having the serfs running around in identical dress must be someone's way of getting their jollies because it certainly doesn't make the employees any happier. Management by respect and trust, OTOH, gives the employees much more latitude in getting the job done and doesn't focus so much on silly details. If you hire competent, professional people, you can expect them to behave competently and professionally.
One of the reasons that I became a lawyer was to avoid ever having to hire one. -SPYvSPY
I've seen it more than once where a senior tech person with 10 years of experience applies for a junior management position. They think they deserve it. They know the technology. They know the operation. They're bright and analytical. But they don't get the job. Some outsider in a suit gets it instead.
Why? Because the managers wear ties and the geeks don't, and the managers' comfort levels lie with those who wear ties.
If you want to progress into management -- and that's definitely an "if" -- then 1) always dress better than you need to and 2) always communicate better than you need to (including spell-checking even the most casual emails that your boss or the end-users will see).
So, walk like a duck and talk like a duck and some day you too may be a duck.
Many of you are complaining that the quality of your work is not reflected in the way you dress.
But how many of you pick the best can of beef chunky stew when you're in the grocery store? Dented can? Nope... unacceptable. You buy a can with no dents. Sure a dented can has nothing to do with the quality of beef inside your can of chunky beef stew... but you must admit... you still do it.
When you have no way of guaging the quality of the product you're buying, your mind tries to find something it can rate quality with.
Quality of the can of chunky beef stew... quality of dress as perceived by your company's clients... or managers.
You both want the most for your money.
In general, no. In particular, it can. If you want people to treat you like a grownup, it's a bright idea not to wear clothing that makes you look like the fat kid's little brother in hand-me-downs.
When you are making a first impression, remember that appearance is the ONLY thing that people can SEE. Before they hear your voice, before they find out what you know, they see what you look like. If you are the janitor, no-one will care if your teeshirt is smudged. If you aren't the janitor, do you want strangers to think you are? Will it increase their confidence in you? Wear clothing which is appropriate to the time and place.
Someone else pointed out that people at the top and bottom get to wear whatever they like. The ones at the top set the dress code, the ones at the bottom no-one cares about. The ones in the middle must follow the dress code. Ross Perot (owner of EDS, I think) could wear what the janitor wears, if he thought it was more comfortable than his suit. He doesn't, and that should tell you something about comfort.
Folks here keep saying that suits are uncomfortable. Mine aren't, and I've gotten most of them from the second hand stores, so we can't give the tailor any credit. You can buy them cheaper than you can buy denim, and the suits are generally in better condition than the jeans. You will be comfortable in whatever you are accustomed to. If you have chosen to be accustomed to clothing that makes you look rebellious, unreliable and immature, you haven't chosen wisely. Unless, of course, you are rebellious, unreliable and immature, in which case you are wiser than you knew, and the rest of us can continue to rely on appearances.
See what I've been reading.
I've actually noticed a trend in tech support (Ive worked at 4 dif companys in the last 3 years in various positions, before decideing to stay where I am now). There was no dress code at the first 3, other then, don't be naked, nothing thats going to offend anyone and no holes etc, you know, common decency. The 4th place, where I am now, is an american company with an office in canada, and about once a month one part of that dress code gets removed, first to go was hats in the call centre, apperntly american companys really have a hard on about that. MY thoughts on recent trends in IT dress code is Customer faceing is becomeing more and more formal non customer faceing, they could care less. Techsupport: Some of you may not consider it IT. Those of you who did it and got out feel sorry for me. Those of you in the trenches now cheer. But its IT as far as im concered
Jesus saves, everyone else takes full damage from the fireball.
10 years ago, wearing a suit was very common for programmers, espcially in the corporate enviroment. there where pretty much 2 exceptions.
Microsoft, and the UNIX guy in the basement that was the only person who knew how to keep the system running.
then a few year go by, and suddenlt companies had to go out of there way to find developers.
enter Casual Dress Code. one of the many perks that where reasonably easy to implement, with low cost over head.
now things are getting tough for IT people, so the corporations are trying to call all the shots again.
The question most people are asking is "How does dress code make me a better programmer?" well, it doesn't, but it is not just about you.
Having an exact dress code lower liability for corporations. Less chance of somebody wearing something offensive. Less aribtrary on who is wearing something in appropriate. More professional look.
If wearing a suit makes you less of a programmer you either need a proper fitting suit, or your not quite the programmer you think you are, and need to act the part of a geek stereotype for self satisfaction.
I said this shortly after the bust, and I'll say it agian, "Be prepared to by a suit if you work for a large corporatin that doesn't make it's bread and butter from selling software. We all know every industry programmer are in would fall apart with out programmers, so perhaps we should start a union?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If wearing a tie made me look professional, the local Fry's Electronics would be full of experts.
It doesn't matter what you wear. You'll always be losers.
The middle mind speaks!
In 2000, I was working without a dress code, for a decent amount of money, not spectacular, but decent.
Then they close up shop, and I get a job within a week (lucky, at the time of hundreds of area IT workers getting laid off), but it involved a huge commute, less than half the pay, and to start, I have to spend two weeks pay to get clothes so they won't fire me. They refused to pay me on the level of others with these requirements but made great demands anyway. Within three months I found a new place and quit, and the new place now pays me nearly 4 times as much and has no dress code, except on days when customer's visit (maybe once every couple of months)....
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
n/t
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I have been through this.
:-) It was one of those things after 6 years, I knew they couldn't do the job required to bring the business to the next level. (They were control freaks to so they would get all defensive about things if I tried to get even the basic business information....).
:-)
My X business partners were a real problem in this sense. During the boomb time and the cray hours I was working to collapse the business technology into something manageable by one person, at times I put in 14 hours. Sometimes 20 hours.
What my X business partners would then say, " XXXX you know you should try and come into work a little bit more presentable."
I would of course smile, and say, " Sure **** I will try and do that."
Problem is, these two not only worked from 7-5PM, thier "contributions" to the business at the time STOPPED after 5PM.
As a business partner and technology guy, my SECOND JOB started after 5PM.
So, what I smiled and said was quite different from what I was thinking...I was thinking something like: "You MORON, I just got done refitting the customer systems ALL NIGHT LONG, what the F*** do you think YOU would look like if you did the same thing?"
This fell on deaf EARS of course, because the two guys I was business partners with not only had ZERO sense of any business, but they never really got the fact that I had far more responsibility than they did, and as a systems guy, contributed to the business far into the night while they had thier asses tucked away for a nice 8 hour sleep binge.
If I could have had the same kinds of responsibilities my X business partners had, I could look damn daper too in the morning, comming in all nicely dressed shaved and smellin like a rose.
In short my X business partners were idiots. However, they were nice people.
But, what I think I am trying to say is that now that I own my own business, I REALIZE that my network guy, has two jobs. He has to be around during the day to help with systems, but I realize he has to maintain systems, and sometimes that means he has to take networks or groups of machines offline. You can't do that during the day, so he has to work at night as well.
So I always say: "I don't care when you come, or what your hours are, but I expect things to be working and keep working 80-90% of the time. If I have to get involved because you don't address peoples complaints, then you are going to have problems with THE BIG CHEESE. So don't make me get all Limburger over your ass....
I find this arrangement works nice. I have had a couple of people ask me why *** gets all the hours flexibility in his job and we as programmers, or sales people do not. I simple reply "Well, first of all *** works day AND nights, has two jobs, and well, if his systems don't work, that paper you push on your desktop don't mean shit. You guys have 9-5pm responsibilities and *** has 24 hours 7 days a week responsibilities."
Most people back off right away, those that don't I train as IT department network guru's and once they see the responsibility requirements, most quit after 3 weeks.
So, management (which now includes me....) should think about network operations or IT operations as a 24x7 job requirement and as such, employees working under such high stress positions, get special favors. (No standard hours, no dress code (within reason of course but no suits or ties, but no Ripped clothing either sandals)......etc.)
They do at my company because the CEO has been there and done that and I KNOW it SUCKS.
Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
2575 hits. Lets get into reality about who can find a job and who can not in this market. Most managers, web page "guru's" and the sort are out of work, Im sick of seeing posts/articles about a downturn. At least for C++ programmers, its just not true.
So what needs to happen for the suit and tie people to lose the attire war is them hearing complaints from us. We need to complain that their suits made us feel like they were being controlling, condescending, and corrupt management instead of peers. For the atmosphere of communication to be set properly, it helps when one team isn't silently threatened by the other team.
I'll wear a suit and tie 4 days a week if on friday I can show up in my underwear and a cape.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
The point is rather that employers taking the approach of strict dress-codes would be better off focusing on the work at hand instead. If the way I dress is crucial to me getting a job that doesn't invlolve any customer contact, my conclusion about the employer can only be that they aren't focused on the work, but rather on some arcane cultural remnant that should have died with the dinosaurs, if not sooner.
/Eddie
Here's a choice quote from the article:
"The increase in productivity is not worth the extra cost and it takes away from the key focus, which has to be work."
ummmmmm..... hmm. so you mean, you don't do work to
be productive? I'm suddenly very confused....
Maybe they should read The Hacker Ethic.
Actually, a tie is a badge which says "I know fuck all about technology, but I really know how to kiss ass. Ignore anything I say."
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Your approach seems reasonable enough, but where on earth is the connection between wearing a suit on one side and maturity and communication skills on the other side?
/Eddie
On the note of common courtesy, I'd say that not forcing a dress code on people unless there is a real reason to do so (customer contacts) is uncorteus and shows an inability to focus on the actual tasks that are needed to keep the company running.
If a company demands that I wear a uniform (which a suit in this context definitely qualifies as) they'd better be prepared to pay for it! Why would I pay for something I would never, ever use outside of work just because my employer is stuck in arcane superficial thinking?
There are two sorts of highly moderated response here.
The first boils down to the canonical hacker-coder "Omigawd! Not me! I'll starve first, respect me for what I do not what I look like!" idea.
The second looks more like "You losers, come back and join the rest of the world. People care what people look like and if you can't figure that out you're not as smart as you think you are."
I have got to wonder: How high a correlation is there between people who posted the latter and people who got stuck wearing suits or ties to be employed after the dot-bomb collapse?
-JDF (I like shirts with collars... and blue jeans, dammit.)
"whether people like it or not, you're going to have to work a lot harder in this environment than you have ever done in your life"
So, we can all stick our "How to Manage Your Geek" articles up our ass. We'll be writing "How to Kiss Your Manager's Ass" now.
But, whatever you do, DON'T UNIONIZE! Organization is for bosses, not workers. Imagine if some poor company had to deal with professional negotiators hired by geeks for salaries and benefits. Why, profits might go down, and the CEO might not get that second yacht!
Better everyone just lower your expectations. Soon, geeks will get paid what they do in China, unless they just ship the jobs over there. Corporate America has decided, better to hire near-slaves under a communist government than free Americans. (Thanks Microsoft!) That's capitalism for you.
There are two types of people; those who divide people into two types of people, and those who don't.
I find it odd that there is no middle ground for you between suits, and torn-up, dirty clothes.
When you are making a first impression, remember that appearance is the ONLY thing that people can SEE. Before they hear your voice, before they find out what you know, they see what you look like. If you are the janitor, no-one will care if your teeshirt is smudged. If you aren't the janitor, do you want strangers to think you are? Will it increase their confidence in you? Wear clothing which is appropriate to the time and place.
You know how many strangers I meet at work? Zero. What first impression are you talking about? Read what I wrote - if you interface with customers, or the public, there should be some kind of dress code. In most software companies, that is not the engineering department. Again, I find it odd that to you there is no middle ground between business casual and dirty, stained clothes.
Someone else pointed out that people at the top and bottom get to wear whatever they like. The ones at the top set the dress code, the ones at the bottom no-one cares about. The ones in the middle must follow the dress code. Ross Perot (owner of EDS, I think) could wear what the janitor wears, if he thought it was more comfortable than his suit. He doesn't, and that should tell you something about comfort.
Ross Perot - now there is someone to look up to.
Folks here keep saying that suits are uncomfortable. Mine aren't, and I've gotten most of them from the second hand stores, so we can't give the tailor any credit. You can buy them cheaper than you can buy denim, and the suits are generally in better condition than the jeans.
I have a couple of suits that are very comfortable. One cost $900. If I wear a suit, I wear a suit. So you want to look "professional" in your second-hand suit? What happened to that all-important first impression you are raving about? Do you want to look like a bum, or some 80 year old man? Wait a minute, in your first paragraph, hand-me-downs were bad. I am confused.
You will be comfortable in whatever you are accustomed to. If you have chosen to be accustomed to clothing that makes you look rebellious, unreliable and immature, you haven't chosen wisely. Unless, of course, you are rebellious, unreliable and immature, in which case you are wiser than you knew, and the rest of us can continue to rely on appearances.
If you rely on appearances, you are a fool. And for the third time, you assume that casual clothing means rebellious, unreliable, and immature. Ask me about some of the best software people I have ever worked with, and I'll tell you what they know, not what they wear. What about Open Source Software? I wonder what Linus wears. Or Alan Cox. I'll bet they look all unreliable and rebellious, so they must be. You sound like the classic middle management type. Good thing you are expendable, cause someone else will come along who thinks EXACTLY like you to replace you. Maybe they will dress a little nicer, therefore they must be better than you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
If I ever wear a skirt to work, there is a 100% chance that at some point during the day I will be required to crawl under someone's desk.
Nice clothes and sysadmining don't mix.
Sarah
The next day I came to work sans tie. I slung the tattered tie over the wall of my cubicle with a note, "this is why I don't wear ties here anymore". I've never worn once to work since, and that tie is all the explanation I need.
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
A woman in my ex-girlfriend's office used to wear the same clothes to work every day. In fact I don't remember her name, because she was referred to as "the woman who wears the same clothes to work every day". They were completely appropriate business attire, and I think she cleaned them somehow every night, but she always wore the same clothes. It drove them crazy.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
To: IT Department
Given Jones's accident last week, employees are hereby mandated to wear a tie tack or clip.
Metallics and fine woods are acceptable; no plastic, please.
Back in my day we had to adb the raw filesystem to clear out disk problems. Kids!
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
CMM = "Capability Maturity Model." It's a certification like ISO9000 but it's geared toward software development.
Here is a PDF file containing CMM level descriptions and probably more than you needed to know. If you don't like PDF then just search google for "capability maturity model".
The vast majority of software companies aren't even at CMM level 2. My company (a consulting firm) has been puruing CMM level 3 for a year now, and there is a LOT involved, we've had to change a lot of processes-- among them is having a formal QA process. U.S. government generally doesn't consider anybody below CMM level 3 when looking to outsource software... at least for high profile projects.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Does wearing the same t-shirt and underwear for a week get the same kudos from management as wearing a suit every day of the week?
http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
I worked for three years in a customer support setting in Melbourne, Australia for a large US software company. I now work for the same company in the US in development.
In Australia the dress code was smart casual unless you were meeting with customers which I sometimes did. Smart casual meant clean clothes with no holes and at least a collar on the T-shirt. Fridays where casual dress day so any type of T-shirts and shorts were allowed.
In California and development how you dress is not an issue at all. What is comfortable for a person is OK. The competence level is the most important, not how you are dressed when you put that level of competence to use.
I think the difference between Australia and California is an issue of traditions, not principles. Businesses in Australia have had a formal dress code for a long time. The code will evolve until everyone is comfortable with what they have I am sure. I remember reading an article in an Melbournian newspaper about a small company instituting a Formal Dress Friday when everyone was required to dress in at least a suit. All other days it was smart casual and people got really creative and came in to work in penguine gear and long black sleaveless dresses. Going to party after work was a breaze. You didn't have to go home to change what you were wearing.
Interesting how, in your mind, visual appearence is directly corelated to being able to communicate effectively.
:)
I am a very capable communicator, both verbally and in writing, and yet I am a very casual dresser.
My clothing does not impede my ability to communicate, nor does it make me "grumpy".
I am a very good "corporate citizen" and am a valued employee and technical lead who needs to communicate with senior management regularly.
Furthermore, unlike many other techies, I have a background in finance and understand business needs and am able to effectively bridge the gap between the two worlds and argue for technical improvements in a manner the MBAs can understand and respect.
Yet you would take one look at me and assume I was a "slovenly, grumpy, non-communicative guy in the corner."
Now, certainly, when one is presenting to the board, part of your communication is visual. Generally you have slides, you make gestures, write on the whiteboard, and certainly, if your attire is garish and distracting, this can be detrimental to your cause...
However, this is not an excuse to brand everyone in jeans and tee-shirts as "grumpy" and "non-communicative", anymore than it would be fair to say that "nobody who wears a suit understands technology."
When one is dealing directly with clients, in person, that's one thing. However, when you are dealing with your own peers and co-workers, why should you be trying to impress them with your wardrobe? Aren't you all on the same team? Working for the same goals? Shouldn't you be far more concerned with the actual contributions someone makes, rather than the clothes they're wearing?
What kind of corporate citizen are YOU if you negate the contributions of an employee simply because he/she doesn't feel the need to dress up to better suit your prejudiced conceptions?
You clearly have some sort of chip on your shoulder, you should knock it off before it weighs you down too much. There are a lot of very smart, very hardworking geeks who don't feel the need to impress you by spending their time and money on clothes. And why should they? What do you do to impress them?
See? There. I was able to politely and effectively communicate to you my stance on the issue. I didn't break down and call you all of the names that first came to mind. I didn't go and sulk in the corner, and I didn't try to spam your mailbox or any of things that I bet you would think I would do if you could see what I was wearing right now. (Perl tee-shirt, cordoroy pants with velvet patches on the side, dreadlocks tucked up into my tam, and birkenstocks)
And oh yeah, I make $95,000, just recieved a personal commendation from our CEO and VP of Ops, I am also the guy our salespeople come to when they need a techie on the phone with a client.
So wrap that around your neck and tie a knot in it.
You could also go for the string tie. They also tend to annoy people. Just let your boss think that you're originally from Texas and this was what you wore there. Just watch out for rotating machinery and shredders. (If those are in your workplace, the bowtie might be the better choice.)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I think it is doubly assinine here that we have casual Fridays and summer months are casual as well. Do the customers feel they get less service on Fridays or in the summer? Do the managers see a drop in performance in the summer? No, but these are the reasonings offered for why we don't have business casual year-round. It is just a draconian system and we must wait for those people to retire or die.
Click here or here.
Dress code for IT people varies a lot from place to place. In an upscale law firm, the IT guy never went around wearing jeans, not even in 1999. In my video games development studio, management wears the same grungy clothes as the other employees. These habits haven't changed because of the dot-com collapse. I think that, to a very great degree, dress code isn't so much a sign of the times as it is a mark of corporate culture.
The best description is here. It provides a good, concise description of CMM levels 1-5. Highly recommended as the best 1/3 page summary of CMM there is.
It also provides in much more detail a description of levels 0 to -3, the Capability Im-Maturity Model, and that part's hilarious.
Zoe Brain - Rocket Scientist
I've shown-up more than once off my bike in bright spandex, and no one minded.
female dress codes tend to heels and skirts. No way - how do people walk in those things? And a skirt is a bad idea if you have to sort out the cables under a desk.
But even worse - if a female doesn't look like an engineer, the old fogeys tend to assume she's an admin (hell, some of the overseas engineers assume that even females whom they *know* are engineers are going to do double-duty as admins/tea-makers - that's what *their* female engineers do)
My current company is nice shirts & jeans/khakis, my last was t-shirts, shorts & jeans. So I bought a "nice shirt" and saw the exact same one on an admin my first day of work - argh!
On the other hand, being one of the old-style unix geeks has some advantages: nobody is really sure what I do, but the boxes keep runnin. Periodically they ask for some minor magic to prove that I am really the guru they're paying for, and as long as I mangle my code output into some suitably-obfuscated format, management nods, murmurs appreciatively, and goes back to flogging the HTML and help-desk monkeys. I wear nice jeans with dress shirts, but have a sport-coat and dockers available if a high-ranking poo-bah should appear.
Bottom line, life is a dance, there's some give and take. Dress code is just a part of the whole, dress casually when you can, but be prepared to dress it up when you need to schmooze the brass. In general, try to look like a professional worth some reasonable portion of your salary. Management really only goes balistic when they see an unkempt bum wearing a competitor's T-shirt munching twinkies and demanding another raise.
Remember, most of our bosses are the baby-boomers, and associate the long-haired, grubby look with the hippies of the late 60's, with attendent negative connotations. You probably don't have to wear Armani to appease their corporate sensibilities -- so give a little!
Suits are uncomfortable because they are made from wool (tailoring is irrelevant). Wool itches. Wool gives me hives. Granted there is silk, linen and cashmere, but suits made from this material are hard to find.
Also, I shall not tie a piece of cloth/silk into a slip knot and put it around my head -- it's a safety issue. Also, quite frankly, ties look ridiculous.
Then there's the cost and time issue. Suits are expensive and dry cleaning is a PITA and another excessive cost.
I dress for comfort: T-shirt, shorts and gym shoes. This is acceptable at my office (large engineering company in San Diego) and if I change jobs, lack of a formal dress code will be a hiring point.
Personal appearance doesn't fix problems. My brain does, which is wrapped in a T-shirt, shorts and gym shoe wearing container.
Amen to that brother! So many of these worthless humans HAVE to be in a miserable relationship to feel complete. I say screw it! Why should I go out of my way to find someone that isn't even right for me? Why should I have to change to get a woman? Fuck that! And it that means I'm going to be a 40 year old virgin, so be it. Porn keeps me happy.
I moved from the corporate world back into Education. When I was out in Industry ( as us Ed folks call it ) I wore camo pants and whatever shirt was clean. One day, I went out to buy a Washer-Dryer looking like this and could not get a lick of service.
Now, when I wear my sport coat, turtle neck, and slacks, I can get all the service I want.
I don't really think that dressing well does anything for my ability to teach or to code, but it makes a huge difference in how people react to me. In a business environment where you have a lot of contacts with clients, that can be extremely important.
Ties are descendents of napkins. how did they get to be a fashion/power statement?
Suits and Ties are a completely arbitrary fashion statement that someone has decided is the "correct" way to be impressive and important. Look back 20-30 years and see if any of the suits available then, (and considered the 'proper' suit,) would be correct now. (It's worth noting perhaps, that with all the alterations to the design of the suit, lapel width, tie width, single or double breasted etc. that the casual outfit-jeans and a shirt- has remained almost unchanged for decades.)
better yet, look back 100 years and see what the fashions were. I still find it mysterious that with all of the history of clothing, that we have managed to progress to the current suit as being the "corporate image."
I actually had a long running battle with a former employer about my dress, to the point where they offered everybody in my level a $1200 clothing allowance in the hopes that I might buy a suit. Then the company folded, go figure.
(I might consider dressing up if the frock coat ever makes a comeback.)
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
No changing room but they do have toilets with private cubicles. Have suit etc in bag...put loo seat down, put bag on loo seat. Hang t-shirt on hook on back of door, put on shirt, hang jeans on hook, put on trousers swap shoes, put on tie...put on jacket. Stuff casual clothes into bag, pickup bag..exit Magic!
'Foosball' is better than the main alternative to taking frustrations out on the test team. And believe me, we don't have foosball, so they get heck.
Yeah, I had a job, I could wear what I want. I worked for a futures broker, those guys were gung-ho trader cowboys who spent half their days surfing for hard core porn the rest doing a bit of trading and most of the evening drinking. I fit in real well.
... "No, you do not rezpekt my gottly powers of divinng ze source kode, it ees too early in zee morning, it ees juts not zee korrect konditions for me to be fixing zis problemm neuw, affter al I am an ARTISTE!!!").
But, then one day, I grew up. Well, I got sick of looking like a teenager. I dunno, there is nothing snappier than a well dressed guy in a good suit. Not a cheap suit off the rack. A tailored, cloth-from-Saville-Row type suit, that fits properly and hides all the unsightly bulges one develops at my age. You know, it's fucking great! Now I'm upscaled into a considerably better job where I'm STILL the best dressed guy in the office (usually).
It's EASY to tell some idiot business or marketing guy that his ideas about deadlines given the functionality required are stupid if you are dressed better than him. Try it someday.
Last, I see some people here still subscribe to the "up all night drinking coffee makes better software" school. It does NOT. You have better ideas when you are fully rested and your programming energy levels are recharged from a nice evening with friends or a weekend at the beach. Read some XP/Agile methods ideas about work organisation.
Programmers are not temperamental artistes. ("MAESTRO! You code ate our accounts! We need it fixed before the Auditors arrive this afternoon"
Get over it. And get a haircut.
(another tip; in a suit, you can have any haircut you want).
The increase in productivity is not worth the extra cost and it takes away from the key focus, which has to be...
control.
don't have to go for that additional comfort for your employees because you don't need to do it anymore because you don't need to compete to hold on to your employees
See what happens when people try to negotiate from a position of total powerlessness?
Next, wages will fall, hours will increase, more people will be laid off...
Anyone who wants to work in an environment like this is a fool.
Nevertheless, I dress cleanly as a mark of respect for them.
... but to set myself apart from other employees, I have started wearing business casual with dress shirts.
A year ago I would have told you, "You are out of your mind." if you try suggesting wearing something nice.
I am working into a position at one company and being that I have been underemployed for the last year, I do not want to lose my job again.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I worked at Dow Jones Inc. for three years (Yes I had to wear a coat and tie). When I came on board I was to take over a system that EDS had developed for DJ. That system was the worst piece of dog crap I have yet seen in a career that spans 12 years! The suit wearing "right thinking" morons committed these and MANY other agregious sins:
1) Hungarian notation ala EDS: m_szkVchar32LastName == a string member variable that is a key field in a database table of type vchar with a size of 32 chars. More than 100,000 lines of code were written to this standard.
2) Repeatedly claimed to have talented object oriented developers on their team. After meeting with people that didn't know the difference between static/non-static variables and didn't see any need for private variables I began to ask around. Of the 7 people developing the system for us none had ever worked on a C++ project before; in fact they all had begged to move beyond Cobol and so they were given a C++ re-training class and then put to work on DJs project.
3) In spite of the fact that their code linked to the Rogue Wave class libraries (which has a string class) the EDS people wrote their own string class that had a hard coded STATIC buffer[50]. I'm not kidding. This code was checked into source control and used by one of the developers in several places on the project. I got much credit for fixing many unexplained pseudo random bugs in the week+ it took me to eraticate this class from the system...
My personal favorite:
4) They selected the "UniSQL" database as the database for the system. UniSQL was a broken down object relational database that did not support hot backups. One of the project requirements - stated in the requirements spec - was for 24/7 operation. Well our 24/7 system had to come down for 4-8 hours every time we wanted to back up the database because the database didn't support hot backups. Finally about a year after we had taken ownership of the system we called UniSQL for tech support only to find that the tech support number was disconnected and the company had gone under. Some digging on my part revealed to my boss and my boss's boss that EDS had been the largest investor in UniSQL...
This is what you get when you pay $1.5 million+ for twits wearing suits. All of the above mentioned business and software practices were perpetrated by a bunch of suit wearing goons. The project's lead architect, who was a classic example of an idiot that could speak well to managers, wore a 3 piece double breasted suit - extreme even for EDS.
When I see computer people in suits I can't help but to think back to the total incompetence that I suffered under during the unfortunate time I had to work with suit wearing, right thinking, EDS losers.
--Richard
Of course we got audited lately and guess what? The auditors were outside of the company and were VERY selective on who they interviewed. See, we have a couple of folk that are labled as CM managers yet they really don't work with any project much less do they implement anything used by any project.
So, like anything else the certification is only as good as the integrity and honor of the ones certifying. Oh yeah, we don't even use version control, change management or anything resembling a professional development environment.
In Australia, the Australian Services Union provides some basic union services to IT workers, however, as the name suggests, they cater more for call center personnel and office equipment repairers, and I don't believe they have representatives in any programming shops. The New South Wales government recently established the IT Workers' Alliance, which should better cover programmers and engineers.
Those with a university degree could also ask APESMA for legal advice or employment updates.
I wore a suit to a job interview today. I showed up onsite and the people there we're sure if I was the interviewie or interviewer since I looked like a manager.
Basicly, you wear a suit you get respect. I always wear a nice suit when traveling because I get much better treatment and the suit doesn't get wrinkled. People treat your diffrently if your dressed well.
With the job market being tight, the employers are in the driver's seat instead of the employees like it was during the Dot Com boom of a few years ago. A guy I use to work with told me how bad the depression was. Those who were lucky to have jobs not only had to play the games at work like dress up, put in overtime without compensation but had to follow a code of behavior outside of work.
The depression was so bad that employers to advantage of it and the employees knew of it. It was the mentality that you should be thankful for having a job and you should show tolerance to the bullshit. The bullshit got outrageous during that time.
There were unwritten rules that you had to follow. Certain eating places were off limit and reserved for executive people. The guy mentioned that his grandparents went to eat at this nice resturaunt one time. His grandpa's boss walked in and went up to him and said,"You are not good enough to eat here. If you want your job on Monday, I suggest you leave now !" Kind of like EDS interviewing your wife as mentioned in another posting. They also at one time, went over to you house for a visit. My place wouldn't pass their standards right now.
Another instance, this one guy I knew bought a BMW, a pretty nice car. The company he worked at, the CEO put out a letter saying that certain prestigious cars were reserved for the executives. Their list was BMW, MB, Porsche, Cadillac and Lincoln. He ended up getting rid of the BMW and got a Buick. This was during the 1982 recession. I would have told the CEO to studd it regardless.
Unfortunately, you are judged on appearance. I at one time, had a Mustang GT. Where I worked at, I was frowned on because I owned a sports/muscle car. When we went on company trips, the VP of Finance made it clear that I was not to drive any of the rental cars. At the time, most people drove sedate type of cars. She supposedly connected driving a car like a Mustang to being irresponsible which was bullshit.
Back on dres code. I worked at a military base until a month ago. One of the people who worked in my group got on my ass about wearing jeans. He told me that blue jeans were inappropriate even for 3rd shift and even if I came in on Saturday for a few hours to get caught up on work. I gave a tour of the lab one time and I wore a looney tunes tie. Kind of eccentric and typical of us unix SA's. When my eval came up, it was mentioned in the eval that the tie was inappropriate. I did not connect it to that guy until he chewed me out for wearing jeans to 3rd shift. The job I am in now, I need to move equipment, etc. I wear jeans everyday. I will demand a clothing allowance if they insist I wear nice clothes even with moving equipment. It should come out of their pocket.
Here in Colorado, we are known for being relaxed especially in dress but with these tight times, I hear stories of places even here that are cracking down on dress codes.
An additional item. Look at some old pictures from after WWII. You see a picture of people sitting in an airplane. Everyone is dressed up. look at the classic movies, all the men are in suits. There is one thing that disappeared in the 1960's. Hats that go with the suit. Watch some TV shows or movies from the 1950's. Men wore hats along with their suits.
I agree totally with this statement.
I'm a Network Engineer, and whilst I enjoyed the dizzy heights of the dot.com peak, I've always worked for organisations where I can wear pretty much anything (within reasons). I can't imagine having to get down on my hands and knees in a suit to say trace cables, or install a router/switch/server. Suits aren't practical for my line of work.
Wearing suits and ties will keep all of the companies which require it from going out of business because they ummmm...
Have employees who wear suits and ties.
Unionization of the IT industry in the united states would be interesting to say the very least. I can hear the pulses pounding already.
I have no sympathy for people that will now have to present a mature appearence and attitude, like most of the rest of the world in the workplace.
Funny, I have no sympathy for anal-retentive morons with third-grade spelling ability ("sandles").
I won't be working for you. Sorry.
I'm still flabberghasted when I think about it.
Sure, ties are all creative and such. That's why you see so many artists and rock stars wearing them.
They did in the 80's. (Gawd I hated that era, 'cept for the economy moving.)
Table-ized A.I.
...notice that ever since all the criticism of how the Aussies (who actually run this place now) were flooding us with irrelevant and uninteresting Aussie news, all Aussie news is now posted by Taco or Hemos? So, they think we wouldn't notice? "Gee, it's from those guys, so maybe it's not boring and stupid...". /. -- time to go find a site with real news on it.
Adios
Working at a CMM Level -1 certified place, I can assure you, there is absolutely no hilarity involved.
However, I did once see a TV documentary about human psychology where the US Air Force did an experiment putting unexperienced people into flight simulators and got them to "fly" close to other aircraft, and try to identify them. The candidates were divided into two groups, one group had uniforms and the other had their normal clothes. The ones with uniforms significantly out-performed the casual-dressers.
So I have to wonder, could a suit make a geek like more more effective subconsciously, even if I spend all my time hating it? I hope I never find out...
Companies that have dress codes should be avoided simply because they are wasting time and resources on things that don't get the job done.
The reality is that any employee should be able to figure out how to dress to get their job done (other than freshouts, maybe).
And of course, it DOES matter what you wear and it depends on the organization (many examples have already been given). First impressions are very important. IMO, it's more the quality of the way someone dresses than what they are wearing. A frumpy generic white shirt combined with a tie that has been (accidentally) dipped in coffee once a day for the last 3 months is not going to fool anybody... Frankly, somebody in a good quality T-shirt and jeans will look better than that!
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
Because as we all know, fastidious dress codes and absolute compliance with corporate etiquette really helped the Japanese economy not take a massive nose dive over the past couple of years.
Corporate fashion is the same as any other. The people that control it just need to keep changing it to justify their existance, so that it looks like they're doing something. Then, if they get lucky and some venture capitalist's greed overtakes their fear, profits go up and Mr Middle Managers claim it's all because of they forced their peons to wear ties. And if profits go down, they blame it on an adverse world market - which gets us back to Japan...
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Mature? Wearing a suit is not mature, it's as childish as you can get. Maturity is realising the total stupidity of such ugly uncomfortable attire and having the guts to take a stand against it. Suits should long ago have gone the way of the buggy whip.
Interacting is pretty easy, although the more intelligent you are the harder it gets because frankly the average person is a moron. And they're getting stupider by the day.
Coders, like scientists generally, are typically blunt and have no time for fools. Typically managers expect you to lie rather than tell them the bald truth. Typically being forthright and honest is interpreted as rudeness by the weakminded.
No, it would tell me something about his brain. Not anything I don't already know though.
Suits are uncomfortable and it has nothing to do with being accustomed to anything, it's just a fact.
And yes I am rebellious by nature, but then I'm also highly reliable and mature. Intelligent people take me on my skills. And I'll continue to wear what I choose.
If someone is wearing a suit I wonder why they need it, what are they trying to hide?
I don't think the whole article is entirely just about dress code. I think that it's about the whole extravagant lifestyle like things that some of these dot coms did which is falling out of favor. Sure, dress code plays a part in that, but I think it's more of an issue with people being able to take breaks when they want to go play DOOM in the company game room and the whole company going to see the Phantom Menace together and fully stocked gourmet kitchens and stuff. Personally, I have no idea WHY these folks were allowed to push business casual to the limit by wearing t-shirts and shorts. First off, the best road to pick is a middle ground on this issue. If your not meeting execs and customers on a daily basis and your just a cube monkey admining a server or programming for a living, then why should you be forced to wear a suit? What's wrong with Khakis and a Polo? Personally I would like to see more company issued Polo's as a incentive to dress appropriately. Only day we really wear jeans around here is Fridays, but we can wear them anytime so long as they are not tattered with holes and stains. We do dress up when meeting with the President, but even our VP's wear casual clothes when they aren't in meetings. If it's a matter of control, then they should just buy everyone a nice, comfortable uniform. Face it, the days of coming in to work in sweat pants is gone and personally should have had no place in the work place from the beginning. The days of High Schoolers getting IT jobs may be gone as well. When the workload is inhumanly possible, sometimes taking someone who knows a little is all you can do to keep trying to crank stuff out. But now that things are back to semi normal, we have the time to do things right. The Dot Com boom was alot of hot air and buggy websites that barely worked. Ever seen a site barely work now? Sure, there are some, but you not every site has a bug now and there's a great amount of sites that have no bugs now at all or no show stoppers. Dot com type stuff has matured and the real money making ideas will work now and not ideas like ordering your grocerys to come via UPS and stuff like that. A industry maturing has a way of making it less interesting as they realize that they can't afford to be paying for Mountain Dew and Penguin mints for the whole office and buying that new UNIX server they need. This also makes everyone realize that they need to look good to attract the kind of employees they really want which are responsible, realistic folks and not these ones who can claim they can crank out a new website in 8 hours.
Gorkman
Point, I mostly skipped the 80s musically.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
Well, I just have to know what that is about...
BTW: I'm not whoever it is you are talking about, since I have never posted anonymously. Just a curious party...
Point, I mostly skipped the 80s musically.
I liked some of the early 80's stuff, like the Cars, but after that the fake drum repeats with only 2 sounds and the reverb-o-mania was too much.
Table-ized A.I.
I have worked in the City of London for five years and have still to wear a suit.
Certainly I look out of place (specially when I am the only one not wearing a suit in the Waterloo and City line packed tube in the morning's rush hour) but I could not care less.
More jobs, assuming you have the expertise in the first place.
What do you prefer: a highly skilled guy that hates ties or a sub-skilled comformist sheeple that dresses impecably?
I find that people advocating dress conformity are normally the ones that have to fear the most because they don't trust their own ability to remain current.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It reads like this:
I understand that business is about performance, service and added value, not about image. Although perception plays a part in a working replationship its enforcement must have a clear justification, otherwise it shows a conformist bureaucratic corporate culture. I know that serious companies will judge me mostly on my 31337 skillz, of which they have ample notice on my CV and hiring interview. I play great in teams because I value diversity and relate to people for what they contribute and not for how they show off. I want to show that although I am very dependable I have principles which I can't compromise, most people value that because how can you trust somebody that compromises his principles?
Better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Why your definition of neatly is better than mine?
What is "professional looking"?
All what you say is a convention. A convention impossed top-down and that only helps to imposs the boss' authority in a hierarchical organization.
If a company talks about loyalty and team playing in a democratic society, enforced uniformism is clearly at odds with those desirable traits.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have never done it, doing well, thank you.
Why should I change now?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
When layoffs come, upper management just look at spreadsheets with numbers, they very often have never seen the people they are making jobless.
The people that get the sack have no job, no dignity and the money they would have saved is wasted in those very expensive suits and dry cleaning bills.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Don't mask your hervibore instincts with a sense that you have grown up.
Grown-ups have opinions and principles and they don't brake them. Kiddies in the other hand are told what to do and are forced to do it, for the greater good of course.
Most layoffs happen in a computer screen analyzing a spread sheet, unless they have a column headed "Dress decor" your expensive (both to buy and maintain) clothes will mean squat.
If how I dress affects how management feels about me then they will be affected also by a mosquito flying close by or by the position of Uranus in respect to Pluto. No chance I would like to work in such an environment.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
one small detail: wearing tie is not for programmers and for intellectual tasks. Wearing a tie blocks blood vessels on a neck just enough
to create a condition in brain when it's lack oxygen. And thinking takes a lot of oxygen.
So dress up - it'll help you to be in position and make you look pretty, but leave tie out.
When layoffs come, upper management just look at spreadsheets with numbers, they very often have never seen the people they are making jobless. The people that get the sack have no job, no dignity and the money they would have saved is wasted in those very expensive suits and dry cleaning bills.
Upper management just looks at spreadsheets and decides how many have to go, not which ones. That task they delegate to middle management, who passes it down the line. Finally, it ends up down with line managers who are told "You have to pick two people from your team."
Given equal job performance, who are they going to pick? The less "professional", obviously, which incorporates a lot of factors, including dress.
When times are tough and layoffs are imminent, it's wise to take every advantage you can. A little money spent on nice clothing may be the best investment you can make.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Yea, that is the holly grail, discipline.
And all is embodied in a piece of cheap cloth.
Wise business practice indeed.
I normaly hire the "rebel' in case you wanted to know.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
After some years working in the IT industry I have still to see my boss or the boss of my boss chosing the people that are layed off. I have worked in big companies only, that may have some bearing in my personal experience.
Heck, sometimes the last to know is the boss of the unfortunate downsized...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Heck, sometimes the last to know is the boss of the unfortunate downsized...
Get a little more cynical. Chances are, your boss *did* choose who was getting laid off, or at least had a voice in it (sometimes, managers are just told to make a list of employees they want to "protect"), but to tell you that would damage your relationship with him, so he lied. It's better to let the faceless drones of "upper management" take the rap for laying off your buddy.
I've moved up the ladder far enough that I get to see some of what really happens in such situations, versus what is told to the employees, and they're rarely the same. The really funny thing is that, unlike what most geeks would automatically think, the deception is generally done with the best of intentions, with the main goal being to let people down easy and minimize frustration, anger and hurt over things that cannot be changed anyway. Sometimes the managers who are the most conscientious and care most about their employees are the ones who lie the most. It takes a really cold bastard to walk in and say "They said I had to pick one, and you're it. Pack up and get out."
I have worked in big companies only, that may have some bearing in my personal experience.
I've worked in companies of all sizes, and seen the same thing everywhere. My current employer (and the one I was talking about in my original post) is the biggest IT company there is.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Hi! How are things going?
(just fine, thank you...)
Great! Say, could I bother you for a question?
(you just asked one...)
Well, how about one more?
(one more than the first one?)
Yes.
(you already asked that...)
[at this point, Alphonso gets smart... ]
May I ask two questions, sir?
(no.)
May I ask ONE then?
(nope...)
Then may I ask, sir, how I may ask you a question?
(yes, you may.)
Sir, how may I ask you a question?
(you must ask for retroactive question asking privileges for
the number of questions you have asked, then ask for that
number plus two, one for the current question, and one for the
next one)
Sir, may I ask nine questions?
(go right ahead...)
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