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Mozilla Foundation Seeking Switch Success Stories
maggeth writes "mozillaZine has a story about how the Mozilla Foundation is looking to know if any organizations have switched to Mozilla products. Is your organization among them?" Can anyone point out an example of a library system switching? Lots of public libraries use PCs set up as kiosks running a web interface to their catalogs, and they all seem to use IE -- so, no tabbed browsing.
I'm writing to share a tragic little story.
My Dad has a webbrowser that my sister and I used to use for our homework assignments. One night, I was browsing a website on it, when all of a sudden it went berserk, the screen started flashing, and some really weird pictures just appeared. Lots of them. And I was at a good website! I had to reboot and find it again really quickly. Needless to say, my rushed webbrowsing wasn't nearly as good, and I blame IE for the trouble I got into when my Dad checked the cache.
I'm happy to report that my sister and I now share Mozilla Firefox. It's a lot nicer to work on than my dad's webbrowser was, it hasn't let me down once, and my cache has been really clean.
Thanks, Mozilla.
Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
Hope they dont make it like that annoying apple switch campaign...
Lots of public libraries use PCs set up as kiosks running a web interface to their catalogs, and they all seem to use IE -- so, no tabbed browsing.
and they would be real useful if anyone could actually see what they are browsing past all the pop-ups and ads!
The reason why you only see IE on public computers is b/c it is the most compatible browser in terms of usability (I mean in the case of it actually functioning, even so that is rare). I bet that any library with public computers that uses mozilla would have to hire an extra person to show people the advantages. Now if some people from the /. crowd would volunteer an hour every week and do this, I'm sure you will find some open arms somewhere in your community. What a great way to spread open source!
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
OK, OK, I get what they are trying to do, and it's a great idea. Shouldn't be hard to find organizations that have had great success that could fit in a study better than what I said, but what I said is true. It's like a breath of fresh air leaving IE behind whether you are a school, an organization, a corporation, or even an individual.
For a site running Active Directory, IE can be locked down completely through group policies. Does anyone know if it is possible to do similar thing with Mozilla (ie. Default start page, proxy setttings, etc)?
Does anyone know if there is a way to set-up Mozilla so that tabs that were open last session re-open next time the program starts? Opera has this functionality, but I haven't been able to find it in Mozilla. Thanks.
. . . maybe Microsoft will counter with some people who switched from Mozilla to MSIE, a la the infamous Windows switcher ad.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
I'm not sure if this counts or not. I volunteer at a treatment center which has a computer lab. They are running windows 98 and office 2000. I'm waiting for permission to bring in a stack of knoppix cds to use as an upgrade path (meaning, instead of shelling out $ for 15 XP licenses). If I get a green light, that will be 15 computers running OO.org--and, of course, Mozilla (which I'm planning on using during the pitch. you know "and, on top of everything else, the default browser is immune to IE security flaws")
Most libraries around here disable the Start/Programs/Accessories, and also disable the IE options, and use the US/English keyboard, so any of us wanting to search for non-English titles are screwed -- no access to non-English letters (except by searching the Internet and then copying & pasting them in one at-a-time, which is horribly slow).
Plus, because the IE options are disabled, I fear to ever check work email or do any such thing, as I have no way to clear the IE cache afterwords -- that also sucks.
I switched to Mozilla 6 months ago and have been enjoying it ever since.
When I got home for the summer and started work back at a Jewelry Store in my hometown, I was able to switch three of the people at work over to Mozilla FireFox. The biggest thing they were impressed with is that 99% of the spyware/ad-ware just doesn't work on it because the coders of those products only code for the dominant browser (IE crap-ola). They also love the Tabbed browsing, the nice clean interface, and the easy access to all your privacy controls (cache, cookies, history etc.). Overall, it's been a great experience with FireFox except for the occasional VBScript-using site with which we have to open up the evil IE to use. I look forward to switching more people over to the dark side of th....never mind.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
Having dealt with friends' Windows PCs lately and the sheer volume of destruction spyware, IE, and all the rest have caused, I would think that -- at this point -- tabbed browsing would be the least of anybody's worries in "library IT".
Why does tabbed browsing keep rising to such prominence as a must-have feature more than simple standards-compliance and reasonable security does?
-- Maciek
Since Firefox came out all of my friends have ridiculed me for using IE, and I had played around with it a bit but was not impressed. I've been a faithful IE user since 2.0 (I know =P) and wasn't about to change.
However lately I had been working on a website and in the cross browser testing I've been using Firefox 0.8 and on for Mozilla compatibility. Its taken extensive use of Firefox but I've almost completely switched. I love the tabbed browsing and it renders so much faster on my computer. I've also found it seems to handle some websites better than IE, especially with unknown extensions. I just wish it had Windows integration, but maybe someone will figure that out. Microsoft has a lot to worry about for IE 7. Firefox is improving with every version and I have fewer and fewer reasons to use IE.
I believe some departments of Monash University (www.monash.edu.au) are using Mozilla on staff desktops. If true, that would count as a serious deployment. Surely there are other university departments switching over?
Well, I switched a few years back and I must say Mozilla and I keep telling my organization that it's the same as Netscape but without all the extra AOL crap. They just look at me sideways... *sigh*
It's always the same, I say, "Hey guys look at {technology A}," and they look at me sideways. That's what I get for working for computer peasants.... *sigh*
Maybe if Mozilla shipped standard on IBM computers it'd be easier? (that's all they'll buy)
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
An organisation named ComputerBank has set up a thin client network of linux computers running Mozilla Firefox, Openoffice, etc etc alongside an existing network of Windows PCs at the Footscray Library.
It's still on trial at the moment - but from all accounts has been enormously successful - with all linux PCs constantly being used - often in preference to the more complicated windows PCs.
My pics.
Having just been looking into setting up one of those library kiosks, I can tell you that's it's because all the easy-install products are built with IE. There are lots of websites about how to set Mozilla up in a kiosk mode, but they invariably involve hacking JavaScript and messing with lots of configs. That takes too much time for anyone but the largest library systems. It's much easier to buy a $30 product like Fortres or Cybrary.
We need an easy download and install kiosk Mozilla, preferably also with an OS lock-down tool to make the catalog PCs as maintainence-free as possible.
At work I've been relying on the Google Toolbar on IE to block annoying popups. Within the last two months, the ad spammers have figured out how to write a webpage to beat the Googlebar. So I burned a copy of Firefox, brought it to work and installed it. Popups are gone, though I doubt the admins will be happy that I did.
They got me hooked like a tweaker or a heroin junkie. First it was just one, then a few more, and now i can't even see all of them! *sob* there you have it! I'm adicted to tabs! /not really recovering tabbie.
There were some sites that wouldn't work, although we haven't run across that problem recently. And with the systems set up this way, we can guarantee patrons' privacy from each other (wiped home directory every logout), we can easily synchronize the machines with a central image at night, and we're immune from 99%+ of software exploits on the 'Net. It also means I can spend my time creating new programs and systems for the library, rather than dinking with Windows all day.
Not long ago, every public access computer in the Austin library system was paralyzed for several days by a wandering Windows virus. We were sitting pretty at that point! :-)
I didn't, and I cannot thank you enough for that warning! Phew...
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I took my Mozilla pills and the doctor gave me a GNU kidney!
(Don't scan the file, just look at it man! Sincerily, Alpha Troll)
I used I.E. for a long time, and it was a terrible terrible time.
Everytime I click on a porn-site, a zillion pop-ups appeared, covering the important pics of naked hot chicks. If nothing else, the pop-ups did a wonderful job lowering my saluting penis. It was horrible.
But then, my girlfriend recommended that I use mozilla! Boy, it was a dream come true. No pop-ups. And the amazing thing called "TABBED BROWSING". Now, I don't have to open multiple windows of I.E., I can have multiple PICS of naked hot chicks in the same browser! I tell ya, nothing turn on my libido then being able to stare at the naked hot chicks in various positions, all at once! !
So, thank you Mozilla! I love you!
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
Most patrons are barely capable of using existing public-access terminals let alone a multi-tabbed browser.
Additionally, the majority of catalog lookups are single-item queries--I'm not convinced that throwing a better browser at them would significantly enhance their library experience.
If you didn't, how do you know that the warning was needed?
TabBrowser extensionsi nfo/tbe
http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-
Probably one of my top 3 favorite extensions. Gives you a lot of control over tabs, saves your last sessions, allows you to reorder tabs, group tabs with the tab they were linked from, and a lot more.
Trondheim public library is using Mozilla on its public PCs (30 machines). I'm not sure if they switched from IE, however.
17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
Even with the outbreak of security flaws and the whatnot from IE, the organizations that already are too busy worrying about other things won't be switching, unless security is the number one priority.
Why would a library switch? Where I am, the inertia is quite obvious because you can see how old the system is. Sure there are upgrades here and there, but seeing brand new equipment and software side by side makes people wonder.
The switches will probably occur if the organization aren't too caught up in other things, and have the resources to change. Of course, being fed up with IE is also another motivation to switch.
We have about 5% Mac users in my organization. All run Firefox as a browser and a few run Mozilla products as IMAP mail clients.
It's an apples and oranges comparison, because the Mac users are a bit more the geek than Windows users; they are capable of understanding a browser interface and I don't have to walk them through the most basic end user tasks. Not a blanket endorsement of Mac, simply because those users are (as previously stated) a bit more the geek.
I'm trying to get all the applications we develop web-standardized so I can eventually ditch the whole MS schtick -- accessible from compliant browsers an linked to open formats.
It ain't easy Ringo, but I'm trying.
My company uses Bugzilla and it's completely mission essential now. Runs on an old Redhat box and uptime is measured between power outages. I'd be happy to write up a summary.
This guy is way out there
... is that when the latest IE threat comes out every month, you don't have to go to every goddamn computer and clean up the mess.
that I administer, but fact is IE seems to be easier to change policies on to keep people from messing up settings.
Yes, in Canada (Toronto in particular), I see Netscape and not IE installed on the old public library computers. I guess when Mozilla is mentioned, netscape is implicitly included.
http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/sessi
It can also reload tabs after a crash automatically. I can't live without this plugin.
Enjoy =)
The same is true for KDE, although I do have kiosk mode locking down some features. Most notably, any kind of shell/command line access is disabled... NO reason to have that can of worms open!
Mozilla is better than IE.
Somehow, that makes your point moot.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
... set all those 20 tabs as your home page group, then they will open back up exactly the same on restarting mozilla.
A querida terra brasilis presta solidariedade à países carentes como Cabo Verde e São Tomé e Príncipe implantando o sistema de telecentros rodando Linux que já é uma realidade por aqui.
:)
O exemplo está aqui
No, but we did switch to Acme Lightninggecko. Well, at least until one of us restarts our browser or pops up a new window, anyway.
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
In what way is Mozilla not better than IE?
I ask this as a serious question not as flame bait. Keep in mind that the biggest bug Mozilla has had was actually a Windows problem(shell:// exploit) and the lack of features in IE relative to most other browsers.
Doesn't anyone use Opera?
Being very vulnerable to worms (at the very least in outlook html rendering engine), exploits, hiding information, etc IE should have a visible impact in economy in organizations using it. The need of taking security measures just because the browser of choice is IE (i.e. central blocking/scanning from proxy server, antivirus/firewalls with special IE modules/functionality). Or the impact of a large virus/worm infection helped by the browser limitations/vulnerabilities inside a company.
And not to forget people falling in scams (i.e. the Citibank one i'm receiving weekly) because the browser hided information or falled in URL tricks.
I'm a sysadmin at a university library, and we have to run Windows for plugins that professors require for their classes. Mozilla nd Firefox can't be locked down like IE can through the active directory. A security change is a couple clicks in a central location with an Active Diretory and IE.
With Mozilla we would have to visit each workstation.
At my school library, I work as a semi-admin (well, I know all the passwords and help out a lot). Most of the stuff I end up doing is removing spyware. I installed Firefox on every box, but nobody was using it, and the spyware continued to pile up daily. As a last result, I replaced the firefox icon with the IE icon, and renamed it to "Internet Explorer." Everyone started using it, and I heard no complaints.
This is probably an evil way of doing things, but people are set in their ways, once they switch they like it, but getting them to not just use their same old browser is difficult.
is hardly Mozilla's number one selling point. It's just a feature, people. And it's a feature that many people (including myself) could care less about. I am very comfortable with right-click + open in new window, and that's how I like it.. being able to see both sessions at once.
Let's emphasize the positives. Security and efficiency.
The college I go to, a SUNY I won't bother naming, has both IE6 and Netscape 7 on every computer. Does that count? Probably not I guess...
I always found it interesting, and a tad odd, how at school I see almost as many people using Netscape as IE (especially adults like professors and my boss). I guess to some people, 'Netscape' still is synonymous with 'The Internet'.
And then there were people like my comp sci professor, who would use one IE one day and Netscape the next... that always grated on my nerves. I couldn't figure out if he didn't know the difference between them, or just didn't care, or what...
~ Aero
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Well I thought that Firefox's security was much better then IE. But this link changed my mind. (Javascript default settings are now changed)
The Barr Smith library of the University of Adelaide http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/ in South Australia uses Mozilla firefox on SUN workstation for access to library search and reservation system.
Warning! Shocksite (stupid trolls)... *sigh*
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I for one have never had a problem with Mozilla. It has performed flawlessesly from day one without a single hiccup or burrrrr8~ ^%@ ..^ & ! # # ,, ~ 8 j ,,, NO CARRIER
Table-ized A.I.
just ascii goatse, nothing terribly bad.
I have sometimes to use a Windows box because my brain demaged company uses a Windows infrastructure. I have a company laptop runnig XP and after having been infested by adware and trojans because of IE holes, I switched to Moz. Never had a problem since then.
I'm sorry, Apple owns a patent on "switch" advertising, we have cases pending against proctor and gamble
you can however advertise switching to apple products, speaking of which, have you tried safari?
Try it in i.e. with javascript on...
I think it would be wise of the Mozilla developers to begin thinking about their next big innovation in web browsing, so that "switchers" will continue switching even after the inevitable addition of Tabbed Browsing to Internet Explorer.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Want to switch a computer? Other people use it? Just install the Internet Explorer theme for firefox.
I've been using Mozilla Firefox for 3 weeks now, and lemme tell ya... i'm not going back to IE. Great, great product, and it's simply wonderful to see a product finally give IE a run for the money (been a long time coming since the Netscape browser wars).
Incidentally, you can download *optimized* builds specific to your particular processor here:
MOOX
The proper builds run noticeably faster on my AMD XP and Centrino procs.
We're an aggressive small business based south of Boston, one of the quietly prospering dotcoms that didn't get razed by the bubble bursting. About a year ago, I was brought on to help manage the many technology challenges facing our company, and one of them was taming the chaos of the Internet from an end-user perspective. Mozilla FireSomething was exactly what the doctor ordered to reduce chaos and help bring safer browsing to the company. Combined with Thunderbird's built in spam reduction, our use of Mozilla products and the switch away from Microsoft-based products has kept us safe from a majority of exploits available today. We've even begun developing to take advantage of Mozilla's unique features, like tabbed browsing, which expedites the processing of student loans. No more browsing with hundreds of IE instances open, just one clean, easy to manage browser interface with tabs. If you ever call in to StudentLoanConsolidator.com to have your federal student loans consolidated, the clicking sound you hear in the background is our in house loan consolidation application and several tabs in Firefox being opened just for you.
Kudos to the Mozilla team for making our work more productive than ever!
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Well, this is obviously a troll isn't it?
Please show me where on the official page it lists "Because it's open source" as a reason for using it. Because, you know, I can't quite find it. In fact I haven't seen anywhere on the site it even mentions "open source" or "OSS". Clearly that is not a selling point they are using.
Oh, but they do have a good slew of genuine selling points, though:
1) Tabbed browsing. Until you've used it it's hard to appreciate just how good this feature really is.
2) Integrated Google search (which is configurable to use any engine you want, if I'm not mistaken). I've been using the search box in the upper right corner rather than typing queries into the address bar myself though.
3) Find-as-you-type. Start typing and it will zoom to (and highlight) links that match the letters you've typed so far.
4) Internal download manager. If IE can pause and resume downloads I haven't been able to find out how. This is also a break for those who, like me, occasionally forget where they saved a download to.
5) Built in popup blocking. 'nuff said.
6) Not vulnerable to 99.9% of the exploits in the wild. That 0.1% being that "shell://" exploit which I believe is fixed now and was actually a problem with Windows itself.
7) Standards compliant, though perhaps not 100% so, it is MUCH more compliant than IE. If there's a problem with a page rendering it's a safe bet the page itself does not conform to standards.
Those all seem like genuine selling points to me!
=Smidge=
have used mozilla since the goofy asshole that performs IT and landscaping decided we should use a linux brand OS. i think its called debian, the logo is a penguin cartoon deally, sorta. my mouse and keyboard work and we don't have to pay protection to peter norton anymore. jeeze, free beer tastes just like store bought. can you say "DUH?"
Serenity now, insanity later.
We use IE 6.0 for our intranet db application. Unfortunately, IE 5.2 (I think that's what it is) for the Mac is so different that we haven't supported it running on a Mac or any non-Win32 platform. Now with Firefox, both the Win32 and Mac versions behave practically identically. Not only that, but Firefox runs our IE-centric application almost without modification. We are now interested in exploring using Firefox for whatever platform there's a Firefox port for.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Try it in ie, it hits you worse. Most of the key capturing that keeps you from closing it does not work in mozilla. Also the flash click to play extension makes pretty short work of the sound on that site.
This is exactly why I just roll my eyes when people talk about the greatness of Mozilla, Linux, or many of the other similar non-MS, non-mainstream software products out there.
When someone asks how to do something in Mozilla or Linux, the answer is often one of two things: "Why would you want to do that?", or it's something like what we have here: "hacking JavaScript and messing with lots of configs."
The first answer, to me, is demeaning because it suggests that the way we are accustomed to doing something is wrong. Sure, Mozilla's tabbed browsing is nice, but when I can't figure out how to get features to behave the way I want them to people get frustrated and switch back to what I know how to work. I think one of IE's initial strengths was that it included built-in help specifically for helping users of the then-dominant Netscape switch to IE. Mozilla needs a similar guide to help IE users if it wants to become more mainstream.
And there's the other 'feature' of Mozilla/Linux that will really prevent its mainstream adoption. With Windows/IE, you can do almost anything and configure it almost completely (within its limits, of course) through the mouse and the menus. With Mozilla/Linux, things invariably do steer towards recompliling code or editing script or something similarly arcane on the command line. Heck, I couldn't even get SETI@Home to run on my Linux machine without doing a Google search and entering what seemed like a string of totally random characters into the command line. Regardless of the potential of Mozilla/Linux, that isn't intuitive and it isn't something even many advanced PC users could figure out on their own.
To me, these two flaws are the reasons why, despite some very good efforts by people who genuinely do like Mozilla and Linux, these two non-MS products can never really go mainstream. Users just get too frustrated trying to do simple tasks that they don't care about the unique features like tabbed browsing that Mozilla and Linux have to offer. The 'average user' isn't aiming to support Microsoft, but he does correctly see Windows and IE as the easiest way to get something done and (somewhat reliably) working.
"Mere months away"? You're joking, right?
Mozilla is highly stable and easily superior to IE. It's that way for about two years now.
Internet Explorer may have some problems, but I can look past those since MS graciously supplies me with FREE patches.
The words of Clippy
My local library (in fact all libraries in Wake County, NC) have some contract in which they have to use Netscape 4.7. That's right. I went there recently when the DSL was out and all they had was NS 4.7. I just got up and walked right out of the building... sneakernet is better than browsing with that mess.
"Software is like sex; it's better when it's free." -Linus Torvalds
while it wasn't exactly their intentions, my school is slowly switching over to firefox. basicaly the first thing i do when i sit down at a 'fresh' computer is install firefox as the default broxser
Nathan Friedly
It has it in addition to the IE desktop icon, not replacing it, unfortunately.
Miami University is in Ohio, incidentally, not Florida. (as in, Miami was a University when Florida still belonged to Spain.)
OSS advocates often decry Microsoft for stealing ideas from everyone left and right, yet Mozilla has to steal their advertising ideas from Apple?
Here in Regina, the libraries use Netscape, on some super old (circa P1 100Mhz) computers.
Galion Public Library uses Mozilla.org browsers exclusively. (I'm the
computer guy.)
However, we previously used mostly Communicator. We did have MSIE on *one*
computer at one point, but that system was so much trouble that when Windows
got cranky and needed to be reinstalled, we didn't bother. The librarians
were offering to dig a hole in the flower gardens and bury it; they weren't
interested in having it fixed; they wanted it replaced. Also, reinstalling
would have been a problem since we didn't have the original driver disks
(not my fault; we didn't have them when I was hired), and with its being a
Compaq Deskpro (no model number _anywhere_, and there are dozens of models,
and you have to know which one you have...), finding the correct drivers on
the net was promising real pain. This was late 2000. I put TurboLinux on
it and it served as a CGI server for a couple of years after that without
incident.
None of the librarians has ever asked me why we don't use MSIE. (Some of
them have asked me about the difference between Mozilla and Netscape, though.)
No patron AFAIK has ever specifically asked for Internet Explorer either. I
do get occasional complaints from patrons about certain plugins not being
installed (most frequently Flash), but that's not nearly as many complaints
as I get about the Yahoo! Mail and Hotmail interfaces (neither of which we
endorse or recommend; we officially do not provide email: we merely provide
access to the web).
I should note that our catalog stations within the library are not web-based.
We have a web-based catalog so people can get to our catalog from home, but
within the library the catalog stations are VT510 dumb terminals, connected
only to the automation system via ports (on a DECServer) which are only
privileged for OPAC (i.e., the catalog) and nothing else. For our older
patrons, the dumb terminals are easier to use and less intimidating than
a web-based system. (The OPAC literally tells you what buttons to push,
and there's no need to know how to use a mouse, which is good because a
lot of people around here aren't comfortable with computer mice yet.)
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I'd also be interested in a campaign revealing success stories on corporations that switched to Linux.
IBM could be a good start, when they get there.
Lots of public libraries use PCs set up as kiosks running a web interface to their catalogs, and they all seem to use IE
Not true. Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has both IE and Netscape (4.5 I think). Our school library has netscape 4 or 6 installed too. But, they all look like sitting their out of some dumb ass' sympathy for Netscape that to provide a better browsing experience.
Actually we just had a case where we had to switch an entire department of users from Mozilla back to IE. We tried using Mozilla on a win2k terminal server and it was a failure. The footprint for each users mozilla session ranged from 25 to 60(!)mb. Way too much strain on the server. IE only cost us 15-20mb per session. We tried firefox but with w2k's 256 color limitation on terminal sessions, most toolbar icons showed as black squares rendering the software unusable.
We posted several questions/suggestions to the mozilla boards but they went unanswered. We've also had a similar problem with the lack of an msi for mozilla/thunderbird/firebird rollouts. Makes mass migrations near impossible. Mozilla does not seem to want to address large scale use such as terminal services and automated installs.
You know why they don't use the Open Source thing as a selling point? Because corporate enterprise does not give two shits about if a particular app is "Open Source", the only ones who really care are the already-converted. Corporate wants to know that the app does what they need it to do. THATS IT.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Avondale College http://www.avondale.edu.au/ has just migrated the web-based library catalogue (http://www.unilinc.edu.au/) machines to run Firefox. It's much better than IE in many ways - the UI has been customised to remove all non-nesescary buttons and a simple window manager has been used to make FireFox full screen. The XUL files make this nice and easy. IE had a problem with not loading pages, not following META refresh all the time and the entire windows system was unstable and insecure. The new firefox solution fixes everything.
There's even a penalty for using IE in the form of an extra page charged when you pring anything.
www.nscp.org
National Society of Compliance Professionals, a nonprofit, membership organization dedicated to serving and supporting compliance officials in the securities industry.
We switched over after installing a version of Windows WITHOUT IE in it (plugging my process):
http://home.earthlink.net/~vorck/
(Sorry, too lazy to add HTML tags by hand)
1) Tabbed browsing. Until you've used it it's hard to appreciate just how good this feature really is.
You can download an IE Extension here to
enable tabbed browsing.
2) Integrated Google search (which is configurable to use any engine you want, if I'm not mistaken). I've been using the search box in the upper right corner rather than typing queries into the address bar myself though.
Another IE extension here for this.
5) Built in popup blocking. 'nuff said.
Another IE extension here for this.
6) Not vulnerable to 99.9% of the exploits in the wild. That 0.1% being that "shell://" exploit which I believe is fixed now and was actually a problem with Windows itself.
IE is also not vulnerable to most of Mozilla exploits.
Putting too many features in a browser makes it bloatware - that's why you have IE extensions.
1) You have tabbed browsing with myIE too. No need to switch to an unknown unreliable insecure browser here. Mozilla says they are targeting Linux and they refused to fix a security problem for windows for 2 year. Only recently they acknowledged it, but then accused Microsoft for their own problems. It is totally unreliable and shouldn't be trusted.
2) Google is not part of the mozilla, google is a free search engine. You can easily access to google from anywhere.
3) Find as you type is annoying stupid feature. It always gets in your way. Your hand touches keyboard and your browser all of a sudden scrolls down somewhere in the document. Totally useless.
4) Download manager sucks. It crashes a lot and there are better plugins for IE.
5) Google toolbar which is only available for IE has it too. Just get google toolbar. Google doesn't support mozilla because mozilla is completely insecure.
6) 100% of the exploits in the wild are for IE, even though mozilla is even more insecure. That's because everybody uses it.
7) It is not standards complaint at all. it doesn't show many sites properly. Once it shows those sites then you can claim that it is standards complaint. W3C is mozilla's own toyboy it doesn't define standards. It makes their own standards, not real world standards the world uses. The people in the real world define the standards, mozilla has to obey people otherwise it will continue to be irrelevant.
In general, mozilla can not sell just because it is free. It has to do far more than that. Its developers have to listen to their customers first. They need to fix their security bugs in a meaningful time frame, not 2 years. Arrogance is something only slashdot users can enjoy, the mozilla developers can not do the same otherwise customers will kick their ass.
"With Mozilla/Linux, things invariably do steer towards recompliling code or editing script or something similarly arcane on the command line."
-1 Troll. Name a few things in IE that you can't do in Mozilla. I have never needed to recompile Mozilla and I think it's safe to say most people using it haven't either.
I switched recently from MS IE to FireFox 9.0, and Thunderbird.
I have never seen a popup ad since, and spyware is almost non-existent.
I have also switched my wife's computer to FireFox.
I even switched at work as well, and briefly tested Outlook Web Access from Mozilla, and it worked fine.
At work, I found two other people who switched on their own about the same time I did, after all the exploits in MS IE were publicized. I am talking to a third person about switching his mom because of spyware problems.
I am also talking to another development group that are doing ActiveX plugins for MS IE for a client, and advising them of the pitfalls and the headaches they are getting the client into.
It is not all rosy though, there are issues:
Overall, I am happy with FireFox from the functionality, features, and usability points of view. Can't say the same about Thunderbird due to the bloat and slowing my machine to a crawl.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Maybe I'm outmoded but why does everyone think tabs are better then tasks? I use different tasks for each session instead of tabs and it works fine.
Why don't you guys have friends or journals?
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but...
I switched from windows to linux in 1995 and haven't looked back.This was during the time when the internet was becoming popular, while microsoft was trying to herd their users into microsoft network instead (msn was something like prodigy at the time).
It's nice that someone has finally offered a standards-compliant, cross-platform browser platform, since the microsoft folks certainly weren't going to do it.
I understand windows has a web browser now too. I also just heard that I don't give a damn. Let someone new into the desktop market. but not anything microsoft-y. They had their chance, and blew it. Bury them.
I was using IE with Avant Browser (which adds tabs and pop-up blocking functionality) and had no problems but I was planning to try Firefox when it reached version 1 (I am summarily suspicious of sub-1 version software). Security issues now that I am no longer protected by a university firewall were the overriding factor; I gave it a shot a few days ago.
But the best thing so far? Here's my switch story.
Since I switched to Firefox last week, reading Slashdot has never been more pleasant. The easy-to-use built in Adblock feature allowed me to remove almost all the advertising in a few minutes. Any that escaped my attention are soon dispatched of in similar speed.
Thank you, Firefox!
Sham on
"semi-admin" sounds like "kinda pregnant" or "kinda virgin". You have admin passwords and you do administration. You're an admin, even if you're unpaid.
With Mozilla, productivity has nearly doubled! Employees report that due to reduced administrative downtime and popup windows, their fantasy teams are dominating, they're whacking twice as many moles, and gambling away entire paychecks before lunchtime every payday.
Thanks Mozilla!
it's easy to do. It's hard to believe just how relentlessly ignorant the average user is until you meet one face to face and tell them to click 'ok' instead of cancel to get to secure web sites.
Many users simply freeze up when prompted with an small changes to the UI. I've witnessed people lost when presented with Windows XP's classic style control panel (or the catagorical one, if they're used to classic). I think it's a combination of laziness and fear, coupled with the firm, marketing encouraged belief that, by God, this darn here compooter oughta be easy ta larn.
It bothers me, because people want so much from their computers, but put so little effort into them. It'd bother me less if people where willing to pay big bucks for the privilege of ignorance, but they also want their computers cheap and their support free.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Most of my workmates use Firefox and love it!
Karma? Sorry, i don't believe in superstition. http://talk.thinkingmatters.org.nz
Browsers aren't like an OS, you can easily run more than one at a time. In fact, I often use Mozilla and IE together so that I can be logged into the same development site as two different people. Both Mozilla and IE are now on all our PCs, staff (and students) can choose to use either or both at any given time. Because of this we will never "switch" as such.
She is almost certainly as ugly as a red-assed baboon that spent last night drinking tequila and worshipping at the porcelin altar.
The guy needs to look at pics of ATTRACTIVE women in order to get it up so he can stick it in his sow of a girlfriend.
This is slashdot for christ's sake.
you should try konqueror's windows splitting feature. Now if only my monitor was bigger...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Ah the irony...
This story is the first page I've opened in Firefox that hasn't displayed correctly.
http://jesus.everdense.com/
with a 256 color skin? If there isn't one already, it shouldn't be too hard to make. The MSI installer shouldn't be too hard to write either. Installing Firefox is basically just extracting the files and adding a few short cuts. Isn't the MSI api designed to make stuff like that easy?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You are not saying the truth!
If you never seen this kind of message:
"you need IE 4+ to see this page"
So you don't know what internet pages are
How does a complaint about running SETI@home on Linux relate to this thread about Mozilla????
I was just up in Maine at the Gorham public library, and the PCs there offered two browser options - Mozilla & Opera. Not sure what the story behind that was, but I was quite pleased
Except for its latest incarnation Firefox. I used to use netscape 3.0, and from then on, hated its bloatware develelopment into what became Netscape 7. I used IE during this time, which itself competed in the international Hall of Bloat competition, but was second to Netscape, and later to Mozilla.
Mozilla started out as a free Netscape, with ALL the browsers features. That was the big mistake. Noone can wait 15 seconds to load a page, or fork out $$$ for more memory to run a simple browser, IE stayed a little closer to the 'balance' during this time, making itself more palatable to the ex-Netscape crowd.
Then came along Opera. They understood the game, and sold exactly what the public needed. During these days of running highly bloated spyware-infested applications on ever-faster CPUs, opera was a refresher. Everyone took notice.
And now, the team whose products I hated for so long blew my mind.
First I installed it on windows. It worked. It took little memory and never froze. Thats not like Netscape or IE at all. Then I installed it in Linux. It just worked. I didnt even have to wrestle with the source code. It even allowed flash plugins designed for netscape/mozilla.
That gave me the idea I could possibly put my sun Ultra5 and RS/6000 to good use, both of which lacked a good browser for basic usability. Thats when I realized the Mozilla Foundation has put its house back in order. They've produced a fast efficient and secure browser that compiles and runs anywhere, and only uses the CPU cycles it needs (almost). Just what all software should be like.
It has taken almost a decade for the software producing world to realize Bloat=Bad=No Profits. N A free piece o code like firefox will set a trend, hopefully even with Microsoft, whose Win98 is still used around because its smaller and faster than WinXP.Now why was that so difficult?
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
My friend is currently contemplating switching the entire library to Firefox from IE, given the amount of popularity and usefulness it is gaining, especially extensions.
It is ironic then, that he will probably NOT be switching because, for one, of extensions, really the complete lack of extension managing tools and other similar architecture deployment tools, especially compared to IE, which he does want to get rid of if possible.
There is no easy way to deploy upgrades of firefox, especially to keep from clobbering or conflicting with extensions on a user's computer. There is no web-update style set of features to deal with viruses and the like.
He was also turned off from reading the Red Hat developers forums, since they were discussing making Firefox standard, and they were incredibly wary. when they were trying to get Netscape going with their enterprise clients it was a bitch, and after analysing things like the extensions registry in Firefox, they are forseeing a similar set of nightmares to deal with.
Needless to say, Firefox is nifty, but it isn't business-ready.
Where in my post did I mention IE? 'cause really, I can't find it anywhere...
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
I've used everything from IE, Netscape, all of Mozilla's browsers, Opera (favourite), Konqueror, Safari, and the IE 'skin apps' like Avant and MYIE2 etc. Now that my fianceé has a decent computer i forbade her from running IE (I set the thing up and i'd be the one to have to get rid of the spyware) because before with her P3 600MHz and 64MB firefox (and firebird) would run too slow. IE is real simple to use and now finally Moz has created a similar product. the biggest issue will be sites designed specifically for IE. i doubt they'll ever stop making these, which is the biggest stumbling block. the browser is something any user can get used to in an hour tops, but the real switch needs to come from page authors.
--- I fix computer problems for a living. yes, they do pay me.
I worked at a public library for several years. I fought with software-based "security solutions" for locking down Windows machines like FoolProof and so forth. None of them were ever nearly as good as an amazing little device called .... Centurion!
This thing sets up basically a large swap partition that gets written to instead of the main drive. So, when a user saves a file on the desktop, they're actually saving it to a "virtual" drive. You can give them full access to the machine. Install whatever they want, get whatever viruses they want on it, it's no big deal. Reboot and the machine is back to its pristine state.
It's so much better than trying to develop kiosk modes that needlessly restrict what users can do. Really the ONLY drawback is that anything they save to the computer might be gone if the power blips or Windows dies.
Have you ever seen Mozilla? I use the browser since version 0.9, but I never had to compile it myself or to configure anything on command line. Mozilla is not a Linux product.
Well I wasnt specifically talking about IE.. actually, I wasnt specifically talking about browsers. "Not having the exact same bugs as IE" isnt really a good selling point, since it's true of anything at all which doesnt integrate with IE..
:)
"doesnt have this bug!" is not a feature.
Really what I'm talking about is lack of maturity. Maybe, lack of polish. Another way to put it might be that there's polish right now where there isnt anything underneath the polish, and the bits that exist dont have polish on them.
I'm not going to sit here and make a list (really, I dont think I could) but I can't see how anyone can sit down and compare mozilla software with whatever it is trying to copy (yes, copy, not come up with original concepts) and decide that the copy is currently better.
People who modded my original post have apparently never heard of an opinion, glad you seem to have
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Check out Byzantine OS for a good "browser only" Linux distribution.
It loads entirely into memory from the CD so that no hard drive is needed and the CD can be ejected after. It basically loads up bare Metacity and Mozilla suite with some modifications. I can see a library set up so that there's no hard drive in the computers and you check out a boot CD from the lab assistant with your library card. Get your library card back when you turn in the CD.
ByzantineOS is the future of the Internet Appliance. I set my parents up with Byzantine. They just hit the ON/OFF switch and it boots right into Mozilla. When they're done just hit the ON/OFF switch and there's no records or maintenance. When it gets updated I just reburn the CDRW.
You're right. My bad.
I too roll my eyes when I hear Microsoft apologists claim "...Windows and IE as the easiest way to get something done and (somewhat reliably) working." This is flat out wrong.
OSX is the easiest way for 'average users' to perform any 'average' task. Period.
If these 'average users' want a superior solution then they must pay for it either with cash (Apple) or their time (GNU/Linux). Neither of these alternatives have a real incentive to compete with Microsoft on price. Apple aren't going to be selling budget $200 Macs anytime soon; FOSS developers won't be making hand holding wizards instead of man pages.
However, other parties (SuSE, Mandrake, Lin(dows|spire|dash), etc.) are trying to compete with Microsoft on price and ease of use. Whether or not they are ultimately successful remains to be seen but any competition to Microsoft's monopoly is a good thing for the consumer.
"The number of Unix installations has grown to ten, with more expected." (Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd ed.; june 1972)
I always prefer to respond than mod.
I took your post in the context of the thread so thats why I picked IE v Mozilla.
In regards to other packages sure there are plenty out there that don't meet up with the hype but there are also plenty out there that do. OSS is just as prone to hype as closed source. However the ones that do meet with expectations usually exceed them as well.
A blanket statement condenming all OSS projects as immature is just as bad as saying all closed source projects are bug ridden pieces of shit.
...but the University library at NTNU, Norway is running Mozilla. Have been for a while too. They are serving many thousands of students (25-30k), haven't heard any complaints yet. These are not meant for general browsing though, only to the internal library database and related links. I did manage to read slashdot there, even though the address bar is locked so you can't type :)
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Can someone explain how tabbed browsing is any better than multiple windows in the start bar / taskbar or dock? I've used tabbed browsers in the past, or tried to, and they all seem to really suck for changing from one site to another.
I think the poster is pointing out one of IE's strengths and fails to see the machine MS has built together. That being the integration into the windows desktop and because of that the power you can wieldto set up default security policies for computers that have different roles within an organization and then being able to push those down with Active Directory at will. Some of the settings that you can change with IE and security policies are trusted sites, or untrusted sites and only viewing trusted sites, no link or url bar, all the differing activex and javascript permissions, the homepage, weather or not the homepage can be set by anyone other than those who are explicitely granted the permission, where the cache is stored and how much, opening it up as a kiosk with no nav such as using the -k switch on the command line, etc... etc... Kiosks is an area in which I think an IE/AD/XP or 2K is a killer combo as far as managing them and securing them from the user at the helm.
On workstations I could see and would like to roll out mozilla. The two places I've worked which were both MS shops and had 700+ user workstations in a domain it was pretty much up to the user what browser they wanted to use but if they wanted something different than IE they needed to beg the desktop support people to install it for them. In addition just jumping to mozilla is kind of an expensive task unless you are rolling out fresh machines anyways and are making a new image for them. Yes you can push it down with AD or SMS but you still have to test the version you are rolling out to make sure things do not go awry and that other apps or web pages that a user "Must have" still function correctly.
Another problem with acceptance of Mozilla is Windows Update, this is by far the greatest hinderance to mozilla in the corporate market. If I have to make sure a new patch is pushed out over the domain I first must test to make sure that the patch does not adversely affect any of the programs that our users use. This would just add one more to a rather large list of programs already. Then you consider the fact that MS has in the past released patches that changed your prefrences such as the default brower to IE. Basically to sum this paragraph up introducing mozilla across an MS based organization increases TCO more than one might realize for not a whole lot of gain. Yes you can argue but IE is insecure... For the most part the users visit the same sites day in and day out and they should all be afraid to visit any questionable sites that diceminate malicious code and whatnot. Between the firewalls, antivirus, packetanalyzers, strict permissions, few number of websites that are visited, its unlikely that they will visit a site that will do any harm to the machine and even if they do it is far cheaper to just re-image the computer.
I'm a fellow geek and I love my Moz and use it exclusively on my workstations but for the corporate environment its a hard sell if they already use MS technologies which 80-90% do.
IE sucks hardcore. I switched over to Mozilla, excellent browser. Then I started using the lighter Mozilla Firefox, another excellent browser. Choosing between the two would be like choosing between two children.
on a friend's computer.
When I launched Thunderbird she exclaimed "that looks just like the e-mail browser we use at work! Thunderbird!"
Yeah, s'mee again!
FIX the bloody calendar. Make it work. At least make it so where emailed invites can easily be added to the recipient's calendar, instead of opening within a new browser window. Pretty simple stuff like that.
We can't switch because the calendar just sucks compared to what users have unfortunately become quite accustomed to in Microsoft Outlook.
They don't care about the mail - Mozilla works better. They care about the *Calendar* and the basic PIM stuff that Outlook has. We don't even use Exchange, but if another Outlook user sends a calendar request, Mozilla can't do squat with it.
So, they try to cling to Outlook.
Thunderbird/Firefox are not suitable/mature enough replacements, and besides, the Calendar will still suck because it's from the same codebase.
bring back the days of Netscape Calendar - or something. I'm telling you folks, cross platform calendaring applications may very well be the killer app for small businesses.
Right now, Mozilla isn't going too far where I work because of the lack of a serious calendaring application.
And that sucks, really. =/
This is one of the best things that a fragmented browser market could offer... If no single exploit can bring a gov agency / corp to it's knees because of many different software implementations across depts. it provides an added level of security.
All the torrents you could want.
When someone asks how to do something in Mozilla or Linux, the answer is often one of two things: "Why would you want to do that?", or it's something like what we have here: "hacking JavaScript and messing with lots of configs."
.js file?
.js file to activate a non-standard feature isn't any worse than having to edit some registry keys... (Which is, AFAIK, an almost daily activity for many Windows users.)
Well, had to do things like that once to get a FF extension written by some Windows user who hasn't heard of file permissions installed.
But can you name me just one feature available in IE (apart from rendering non-W3C compliant pages) that isn't available in Mozilla/FireFox without hacking a
IMHO, having to edit a
With Windows/IE, you can do almost anything and configure it almost completely (within its limits, of course) through the mouse and the menus.
You mean like in IE how you can configure it to be able to download more then 2 files at once? That's right you can use the mouse and menus to go through the registry to fix that right?
http://www.tweakxp.com/tweak764.aspx
or set the default download directory... oops no registry
http://www.tweakxp.com/tweak128.aspx
changing mailto: to load another mail program.. registry again
http://www.tweakxp.com/tweak734.aspx
You try to make it sound like its a big deal to install firefox, it's not any more complex then installing any other windows application you download off net. In the time it takes you to update IE to a stable state, you could already have downloaded, installed, and be adapted to firefox (that's because there basically is no adaption time).
Your rant seems aimed at Linux and not at Mozilla... because there's no reason for the average user (yes even the average slashdot user) to recompile or muck around with scripting (XPI) in firefox. Furthermore Mozilla and Linux have nothing to do with eachother, why you arbitrarily lumped them together is a little odd. The common denominator being that they both compete with Microsoft I guess. While you address only one side of your grouping it makes the argument sound akin to "I don't like cats and dogs... they leave droppings on the lawn, bark at night and they attack the mailman... and that is why I don't like cats and dogs"
You'll have one more user using the real implementation of JavaScript, not supporting VBScript at all, using proper DOM and CSS without resorting to browser-specific hacks, not installing spyware from malicious pages, not reading most banner ads, not viewing pop-up windows (unless s/he specifically requests them), and not having ActiveX turned on.
No browser is perfect, but if you're using Internet Explorer, you're probably using a browser that's fucked up in all the ways I've listed above. I absolutely love tabs, mouse gestures and clean interfaces, and I could talk about them until I'm blue in the face, but the bottom line is that IE just doesn't do the job properly, and pretty much everything else does. Switch browsers - to anything except IE - and tell everyone you know why you did it.
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
Before Mozilla, my PC was getting 0wn3d three times a day. I kept getting virus after malware after popup. Every time I turned around, there were a dozen popups on my screen, multiplying by the second, and my home page kept changing to random porn sites.
Now that I have Mozilla, my computer is getting 0wn3d only once a day! New technology has come out to save me from my own gullible self, but the power of human stupidity prevails. Thanks Mozilla!
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Yeah the default settings are crap:
.slt folders what about using home/.mozilla or equivalent and let that be.
/tmp on linux with global readable file perms on most installations, hell even the file name is too much info on a multi user system - why not just use the cache settings & folder ffs.
1. Allow scripts to do whatever the &"^£" they like.
2. Load remote images in Mail & News
3. Save all form data
Just some examples. How about the ease of xpi installation - we need white list and signed xpi's as default.
Oh and wtf is up with the
Why are there so many base config files to create prefs.js
how come temporary mail attachments are swapped by default into
ok that is just the things that spring to mind.
I am a student at the university here in Bielefeld, and the whole library has been using linux for the terminals in the library for years now, and recently I noticed they switched to Firefox.
Made me happy when I found out, to see that some big institutions can make the switch (but public libraries actually should be among the first to switch, they usually have a low budget and can just slap some downsized linux distro on an "old" machine with Firefox and there you go).
My department at a large educational institution upgraded all users to Mozilla 1.4 (update included all staff, faculty, and the library). It was nothing but a nightmare for the support team and for the users. Doing previously simple things was now comlicated or buggy. The only way to resolve an issue was through bugzilla and we were only allotted so many "votes" so many of the issues that plagued our users got resolved somewhere around between 1.6 and 1.7 (while nearly all of our users reverted back to IE or Netscape in the interim).
One of the things that bothered me the most about Mozilla was that every change they'd decide to fuck around with the GUI or menus. So every update we'd have to 1) learn how the subtleties and nuances of the new version and 2) now teach everyone else as well.
So Internet Explorer and Netscape may not have been the best choice in terms of pop-up blocking, etc. but the upgrade to Mozilla probably cost $10-20k+ in terms of support to end users.
Don't get me wrong, I use FireFox and Thunderbird every day, I just wouldn't recommend it to my family members, let alone to the users in the workplace.
Hah, why not just ask us to drive rusty 9" spikes through our eyes? It's about as sane.
Check out the quote at the top of http://www.switch2firefox.com/
"I took back my computer with Mozilla Firefox"
Where did he take it back to, the retailer? Why did he have to take his computer back? Did it break? Did firefox break it? Gee, I'd better not get this firefox virus then.
Maybe they should have had him say "I took back CONTROL OF my computer with Mozilla Firefox".
Some may argue here that it's quite obvious what it means. For some, yes, but I think it's quite ambiguous.
For an obvious rip off from Apple's site, they should take note of the straightforward method Apple uses.
The Electrical Engineering Department at my university finally broke with university trends and installed Mozilla on all of the lab machines and hid the Internet Explorer icon on most of the machines.
In addition, in the course that I assisted, we taught about Mozilla, how tabbed browsing works, how to set it to block popup ads, the security issues of Mozilla versus IE, etc., and basically encouraged navigation from IE. At first, the students were a little unsure since it was not what they were used to. However, shortly thereafter, many of the students preferred to use Mozilla.
I am happy to say that since the migration to Mozilla in my department on lab and professor machines, and after several of us (EE and several CS students) getting together on the university forums and singing Mozilla's praises, a suprising percentage of students posted back saying that they decided to give it a try and loved it. Looks like one small step led to an even greater following because even more of these students helped their room mates, friends, and families make the change as well.
I am currently in the process of putting together a workshop so that the computer-ignorant on campus can bring in their machines, have a few volunteers clean it of viruses and spyware, show them how to configure their machines (getting rid of processes on startup, how to update critical updates and virus definitions, and install and demonstrate Mozilla. We have also discussed putting together a group to help set up dual boots of Windows/Linux for interested students who would like to try out Linux, yet want to stay with Windows for now.
Note: Most of this is student-led.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms."
Oh yes, and I forgot to mention one of the greatest features of Mozilla that I emphasized to the research students.
I tell the students that tabbed browsing will become their greatest friend when writing research papers. With subscriptions to the IEEE papers and such online, most of the students use online references. So, say after a day of researching, they have a screen full of tabs of references they plan to use in their paper. They just have to simply go to Bookmarks, and then click "Bookmark This Group of Tabs." Come time to write the reference page of the paper, they only have to reopen their browser, click on one single bookmark, and have their 20 references reopen in tabbed form. Much handier than 20 individual bookmarks. And, if they want to keep those references, they just have to open the program files folder on the machine and save the HTML file Mozilla creates for bookmarks to their webdirectory, and they will have a webpage full of clickable links to their individual references.
After the research students play with this option a few times, they are happily singing Mozilla's praises!
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms."
Maxthon has brought IE back into the game for myself. IE is still about the same speed to render, faster on autoscroll & google bar highlighting.
I still swap with Firefox about half the time. Extensions like googlebar and the web developer extension are definitely bringin it into competition.
I am in the process of switching many systems at a client to Mozilla, because I am in charge of keeping their systems running and they don't have an IT Staff. After all these IE holes. I decided to put mozilla on every system there. But unfortunately it cannot be a complete switch because my client is part of a much larger corporation and they need to run a lot of stupid activeX apps, which really pisses me off because I cannot set the security as high as I want because these people need access to install these POS apps (That barley work correctly anyways) on there systems and there are way to many of them to do by hand and they change all the time. But unfortunately I need to keep all the links to IE to access corporate stuff.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You're right, you didn't. And I never claimed you did.
But if you're going to push a product, comparing your product to the competition is a common and effective tactic. Therefore, those are still valid selling points, which they are using.
=Smidge=
Remember these are public libraries so that means:
1. More of your tax dollars wasted.
2. More downtime of critical library systems. (there aint no card catalog anymore).
3. The potential for inter-library viruses.
4. The potential for keyloggers, etc.
At your house, feel free to use a browser you coded using VB, but at my library I expect the crap to work. If that means getting rid of MS, then so be it.
Wake Forest University has this scheme where all incoming students are given IBM ThinkPads. They all have Mozilla (currently, the suite) preloaded, and people are told to use it. Random complaints? Yes. Notable campus-wide virus infections? No!
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
You know why they don't use the Open Source thing as a selling point?
No, it isn't used as a selling-point becuz they don't need to, they already have tons of selling-points that refer to actual functionalities and areas where Moz/FF is lightyears ahead of IE...
...that you were able to get people who were used to Internet Explorer use Firefox without them noticing much of a difference...I mean it says a LOT for the intuitive design of Firefox that an IE user can just switch to it immediately without any hiccups.
Now when I say intuitive, I don't mean that IE is intuitive. I mean that since people are used to IE, they have developed a certain feel for where the buttons should be, how the browser behaves, etc. The fact that Firefox can replicate that is a compliment to the design team.
Way to go guys!
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
I too roll my eyes when I hear Microsoft apologists claim "...Windows and IE as the easiest way to get something done and (somewhat reliably) working." This is flat out wrong. OSX is the easiest way for 'average users' to perform any 'average' task. Period.
Elvis is alive, he was taken by aliens. Period.
Note the thing our claims have in common? Both are completely unsupported by any citations or other evidence, and both are believed religiously by a tiny minority of the world's population.
I'm not denying that there are usability studies that have suggested that OS X has advantages over Windows, but I'd suggest you at least mention their existence if you want to argue for OS X's superiority. As it stands, I can trump your unsupported assertion merely by providing a single anecdote about my aged grandmother (who finds her PC perfectly usable, but is completely unable to get to grips with Macs). That's statistically meaningless, but it's infinitely better than supporting your claim with "Period".
are being migrated to a heavily modified version of firefox. Our new application is web-based so we're moving all new stores to Linux workstations with our version of Firefox installed. The upshot is that our preexisting Windows machines can use the same browser (modified as well) until the windows machines die at which point we replace them with Linux boxes.
I actually really enjoy the conversations with our business partners who seem confused when we tell them we don't run Internet Explorer and we never will.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
But too much Windows integration is one reason why IE is such a security nightmare. With that level of integration, gaining control of the browser pretty much means gaining control of the OS with that user's rights. In the case of Win9X that's complete, and in the case of NT-family that usually means admin, which is just about the same thing.
I suspect integrating a browser with the OS can be done, but to do it the way MS did, but safely, would be incredibly difficult. Sandboxing for the web would be appropriate, but might impose too much of a performance hit to use for browsing local files. OTOH, not sandboxing local files opens yet another vector for attack - getting 0wn3d for browsing a malicious file you downloaded.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Perhaps one of our bigger enemies in "the browser wars," cloaking as the other guy.
So let's pretend that Mozilla/Firefox/Opera all together get 75% share, but 90% of them are cloaking as IE. To the folks gathering statistics, Mozilla/Firefox/Opera will still appear to have a paltry 6-7% market share, not worth messing with. IE will still appear to dominate.
The same argument is made about WINE, and was made about WinOS2.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Been Opera user since... Well, can't remember ;) Circa 1997 maybe. Then (when Mozilla 1.0 came out) switched to it and never (almost) looked back. Then FireXxxx since 0.6(?) made my day. Mostly due to more customizations (I have some icons, menu, and some links on one bar). Firefox 0.8 is one great browser, with proper extensions of course. Now 0.9 comes out and does NOT work properly out of box (clean installation). I'd say it does not work at all after a couple of actions. Weirdest problems with navigation and stuff. Ok, I think, shit happens, they screwed again (do you remember that CSS bug which made "short" pages without HTML and BODY tags not render?). BUT! 0.9.2 is out and it is still the buggies Gecko browser I tried. WTF, guys?! I shudder to think about what would they put out in 1.0. And I'm sure it's not "just me".
To plea again: somebody, finally do something about File | Save As.. | Single MIME encoded file. IME it's the #1 problem when converting people.
...gecko is written in C++, which uses the dreaded ...gasp...OOP paradigm...oh, the humanity! ;o)
For humour impaired see tablizers': OOP =bad
I am NaN
Go ahead, mod me down all you like.
YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT.
You can look it up on NewsForge, but it is in the waiting room of my medical practice.
For economy, safety and my convenience I chose Linux and for convenience and actually speed I chose Opera.
I'd be happy supporting Mozilla on it nowadays, or probably just the browser component when it reaches 1.0, and I see no reason to expect people would have trouble with it, they are not at present.
It gets used, lightly.
I'm basically the only guy in my group of friends who can build computers and can help others when something goes wrong. So the first thing I tell them is - stop using IE, and switch to Firefox. If they refuse to do so, I simply explain that life is all about choices. This is a free country, and of course, they have a choice of using IE. And I have a choice of not helping them with anything related to their computer if they don't take my advice. It's that simple.
:-)
All of them made the right choice so far
Needless to say, when I build a new computer for someone, I delete all shortcuts to IE, and put a shortcut labeled "INTERNET (Mozilla Firefox)" right in the middle of the desktop.
If the Mozilla foundation is so confident that Moz is the best product out there (and even if it's not), shouldn't it also ask for the failure stories?
there != their
Are you going to write a sequel now about loose != lose?
I hope to spend a few days (or at least one) in Austin in September. If schedule allows, I hope to drop by.
Tim
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I think one of IE's initial strengths was that it included built-in help specifically for helping users of the then-dominant Netscape switch to IE. Mozilla needs a similar guide to help IE users if it wants to become more mainstream.
This does actually exist. I'm on Mozilla 1.8a2 and there is a Help->For Internet Explorer Users menu item.
I quite agree, it is essential, even for silly things like differences in jargon (bookmarks/favourites).
Cheers,
Roger
Do you have any better hostages?
And what do you mean "compiling" Mozilla? What are you, a developer or a user?
Success can show in the absence of stories. The more boring the story, the better!
Q: So you switched to Mozilla?
A: What?
Q: Have you switched to using a web browser called Mozilla?
A: Ah. Yes, I use the Mozilla web browser.
Q: Was the transition a success?
A: What transition?
Q: the transition to Mozilla. Did it go well?
A: I don't really remember. In fact , I have trouble recalling when exactly we switched.
Q: Did you have problems changing?
A: I guess not. Probably I would recall if there were problems.
Q: But you didn't notice?
A: Not that I recall. But maybe if you ask around, you'll find somebody who did.
What do you want to sell, that the new program is better? Or that you don't remember anything about the new program?
We've also switched to Firefox for our desk and office machines, and that has worked wonderfully. I've just had to delete all of the shortcuts to IE so that nobody uses it "accidentally". It's reduced my problems with spyware from a flood to a trickle.
Nice Rebuttal. Any and I mean any person in IT who deals with Windows on a regular basis will laugh at the idea that you don't ever have to deal with the tangled mess that is the Windows Registry. And no, real professionals don't install "tweaking" programs on their servers or clients in order to avoid the registry. Registry editting is a fact of life while maintaining Windows Systems.
;)
c re enshots/screenshot-gnome-2-gconf-editor.jpg
On the other hand if your a Linux user and are asking yourself "How can I get ahold of some of this Registry action?" don't worry. Registry editting in all of it ugliness is coming to a Linux system near you.
http://www.kefk.net/Linux/Desktop/LPT-Desktop/S
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Elvis is living in a nursing home fighting soul-sucking mummies with a black guy who thinks he's JFK.
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
..and now I'm immune from negative moderations!
"Derp de derp."
This has to be one of the most spectacularly stupid comments I have ever read.
"I'm not going to sit here and make a list (really, I dont think I could)"
Indeed.
Do you have a pointer to a good IE theme for Moz/FF? The only ones I know of haven't been updated for a year and won't work with the newest versions. About 8 months ago I wanted to try a stealth "switch" on a coworker's PC (changing the icon to IE, etc) as an experiment, but couldn't find an up-to-date IE theme!
Constitutionally Correct
Switched to linux and mozilla getting rid of NT and windows machines!
NewsForge
anyone who thinks the difference between "good" and "bad" can be listed is an idiot.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Go ahead and continue to delude yourself, that's fine. But the fact remains, corporate does not care if it's open source or not, and if they do, they are usually biased against it.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
this Morphix mod is what I am looking at to mod for our web registration kiosks.
Sera
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
if you read into that in the slightest, you might have noted that IE is not the only competition. Things like tabbed browsing is achieved substantially better than Mozilla in its competition. (though firefox with the right extentions does a decent if slow job), that is to say- your points are ALL invalid. Every one of them is implimented better in competing browsers. (ezxcept popup blocking, which is arguable as to which is better)
If I found someone who was even fatter, lazier, and stupider than me, I'd probably look great next to him (even if he could run twice as fast)
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
There are plenty of mature OSS projects, I'm not saying there arent. And all I'm really saying is- Mozilla doesnt yet meet up with all this hype which is suddenly being generated around it, and if we keep telling people "Switch to open source! Use this browser, and this mail client, and everything will be better!", and then they try it and find out they can't actually run a business the way they were before... it's not a nice thing to do.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Making a change to the registry involves doing it once then making a .reg file that you can simply double-click. How do you do that with XUL files, diff and patch, or some kind of XSLT?
The Library System of The University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario, Canada uses Mozilla
on 450 Sun Microsystems Sunrays (both Sunray 1 and 100). There are a few Windows PCs left (about 30 or so) for legacy CD-ROM databases that run IE.
I'm looking for information on FOO. Fire up a search engine and get a pile of plausible links. Middle-clink on the likely ones and watch them open in separate tabs. The tab headers are red, meaning they haven't loaded yet. When the tabs turn blue (during the wait I'm continuing to scan the search results list), I can go and look at them.
Oh, look, one is a link farm on the subject. Repeat the process, middle-clicking on the likely-looking links.
I'm using two features: first, opened tabs do NOT pop to the front, and second, they show me when they've finished loading. This lets me keep working without twiddling my thumbs waiting for a page to load.
Please tell me people like you really don't exist.
Here's the link to the IE theme
I have switched to firefox for personal browsing on all of my machines. I switched my wife's laptop as well. Just last night I gave a quick training on getting, installing and using firefox to my wife's cousin who just bought a new dell laptop.
/. is responsible for IT Operations and has got their workplace to switch - what were the compelling reasons stated.
I am currently proposing that our company switch to firefox in its standard image for all ~250 employees.
I have not had a single crash, or other inaccessible website - and am running to "test stability" on all my work machines.
If anyone else here on
I have so far met with little resistance, aside from being able to delineate the "compelling business reasons" why we want to switch.
So far I have the following reasons, and while they may not be "compelling" to some - I find them to be rather persuasive items:
- Tabbed browsing, allows for more concise and
organized navigation and information management.
- No active X support - preventing high-risk items
from malicious code execution and browser
hijacks.
- Free site license (ish)
- Zero Pop-Ups.
I think in just a few short months, we will officially have the company on firefox - I would hope that they would have ver 1.0 out by then....
so its less of a beta product in the minds of executive staff....
All of the public terminals in the library at Central Washington University have Firefox instead of Internet Explorer.
What other products are out there?
Konqueror? Well that eliminates all your Windows users, so using them for a comparison wold automatically cut your market to less than 5% of the total. Same goes for Safari. Neoplanet? That's got a download manager and integrated search, but other than that it's a skinnable IE. Avant? It's got a popup blocker, integrated search and multi-page browsing (But using a standard MDI isntead of tabs, which has it's good and bad points). K-Meleon? Tabs, integrated search and popup blocking. Close!
How about Opera? Well that's getting somewhere. But if you're going to complain about unnecessary options, why do you need an IRC client built into your browser? Do you REALLY need a mail client bundled with it? Oh yeah, it's also either subscription based or ad supported... well it's still a viable option.
I'm sure you know of a few others. Care to share?
If you want to do something sensible, you compare yourself to the product that has the lion's share of the market: Internet Explorer. If there is anyone out there considering a change in browsers they most likely are using IE now. That's your market so that's who you pitch your sale to. You think it's a coincidence that all the alternatives I mentioned above mention how similar to IE they are?
"But" you say, "You can get extensions that give IE all that functionality." Well yes, but you can also put a really nice stereo system, leather seats, navigation system and better suspension in your beat up old car or you can get a new car with all that already in it. NO matter how many coats of paint you put on that Pinto it'll still be a Pinto and it will still blow up when it gets rear ended. I suppose you could reinforce the back bumper, but now you're "bloating" it with extra weight. Plus now you've got to juggle all different components to get the features that the other products have as standard.
And all of this is all pretty much academic at this point, because Mozilla is still not using "Because it's open source" as a selling point, as your post originally claimed. So do you want to go back to that point or keep trying to get away from that subject?
=Smidge=
If you find that Linux administrators ask you, "Why would you want to do that?" you may find that you are not doing things the optimal or correct way. There are fundamental differences between Windows and Linux, as there are fundamental differences between MacOS and Windows, OSX and Windows, or even Windows 9x and Windows NT/2000. Things are done differently on different platforms, and although you may be able to do something a certain way on one platform, there is more than likely a completely different, perhaps easier way to achieve the same result.
As to applying this to Mozilla or Firefox, there is no such parallel. There is very little different between the IE and Mozilla, except in back-end operation. I have been using Mozilla since 2000, and Firefox since right before the latest name change. Prior to that, I used IE 4/5/5.5/6. I have switched my parents, friends, clients, and business associates. Not a single problem, certainly nothing that required "recompliling code or editing script or something similarly arcane on the command line."
You might want to stop rolling your eyes, and take a look. These products may not have looked as good in the beginning, but no product does. Keep in mind that Microsoft and other proprietary products are not available for inspection until they have matured to some degree. The fact that these products work well before that stage and are therefore in use is actually quite amazing.
Hello little man. I will destroy you!
replies like this are, IMO, part of the reason why Mozilla and Linux haven't caught on. Geeks want to be geeks and want to show the world how much smarter they are than anyone else.
Guess what, you're not going to change most microsoft users (like myself), by geeking up Mozilla and insulting anyone who is pro microsoft. That's not how microsoft did it.
Make linux easy, be helpful in your responses. If your true intention is to help convert people to use Mozilla, being helpful is key. If, however, you just want your ego stroked, keep insulting, but don't be so ignorant that you don't realize that you're blowing a potential opportunity to change someone's mind.
BTW, I use Mozilla at home because someone kindly pointed out the benefits.
While tabbed browsing is a neat feature, it is a double-edged sword in my mind. This is mainly because it truly separates the web browsing interface from the rest of the GUI (e.g. alt-tab doesn't cycle through browser tabs, ironically, but a separate shortcut will). My gripe with this is inconsistency. I personally think that consistency is one of the best ways to make a user interface truly easy to use. Browser tabs represent what used to be separate windows. When means of managing and navigating between windows/tabs start varying, then the interface starts to break down. This is unfortunate, because each GUI has its own attempt at global window management (in this case from the user's perspective). Tabs defeat this: individual tabs do not show up separately on a task/process bar, nor do they show up separately in window listings, nor in Exposé. As I said, this is mainly a matter of preference, especially for high end users, but I really think that there can be some more improvement here. It seems that geeks like me have fallen in love with tabbed browsing, but I think it's really in the beta stages now and we need to see some changes before we get too used to it.
I am feeling fat and sassy
I think the thing about Tabbed Browsing being such a mentioned feature is 'cos it's the icing on the cake, so to speak.
Mozilla (and Opera) does tend to be more standards compliant, more secure, and more stable. It's the reason we switch from IE. However useful features like tabbed browsing can be why we enjoy having switched from IE. The features alone aren't what make it special, it's when added to the other advantages.
IE having tabbed browsing would be nice. OK, standards-compliant and more stable would be important - but honestly, what are the chances of that happening as things stand?
Besides, we can't see security or stability quite as easily. And standards-compliance isn't quite so visible as too many people still write sites for IE. But when I have to use IE for whatever reason (like a work PC without Firefox, or an Internet Cafe) then it's tabbed browsing that is most apparent to be missing.
Errrrm, this isn't inconsistant. Alt-tab won't switch as it's one window - but other programs have windows-within-windows. (Word used to, before the bastards changes it to each file having it's own window...)
Ctrl+tab is the way to switch between windows/tabs programs like this. It's acting just the same as other programs in that respect.
Yeah, but this "Single WIndow for Every Page or File" mentality is a pain. Well, it is for me anyway. I liked when Word or Excel would open all files inside one master window. The change meant that suddenly they were cluttering the taskbar with several instances of the same program.
If anything the tabbed approach is the best. It doesn't clutter up the taskbar, but the tabs let you see what's in each page.
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
Checked back with each of the users after about a month to see how they went and my biggest surprise was those users who had the net at home had also switched over their home computers to mozilla as well (during instruction I showed them the mozilla web site and gave a brief bit of instruction on downloading and installing it).
I don't know why I was suprised (I know which browser I prefer to use) but it was just unexpected as they all had made the change at home.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen