Fl. County Halts FTTP Until Installation Is Safer

celerityfm writes "Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises (FTTP, see previous) in YOUR neighborhood may involve geysers of raw sewage spewing onto your front yard or sinkholes opening and swallowing moving vehicles. Well, Hillsborough County, host to one of the first FTTP trial sites, has ordered Verizon to stop deployment of FTTP until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside. No word on whether SBC is having similar problems with their fiber roll-out."

Comments

FS

[SEWilco]

First Sinkhole.

Re:FS

[iztaru]

This store sounds just like a urban legend!

Re:FS

[swordboy]

Right, but can you get it to open only for minivans with children in them?

Re:FS

[gstoddart]

Right, but can you get it to open only for minivans with children in them?

Or SUV's with idiots in them?

Super-bling neon's with engineered wings and neon lights?

Oh, the possibilities are endless.

Re:FS

[bombadillo]

Unfortunately it would be more accurate to say, " SUV's with an idiot in them".
I am amazed at the number of SUV's that only have 1 person in them. If you need a vehicle that big then that's fine. However, 95% of the population does not need an SUV. Unless you have more than 3 kids or haul things around there is no reason why you need an SUV. I guess those people have a lot of air to haul.

Re:FS

[sumdumass]

/There are plkenty of reasons you could need a SUV. The most frequent one that comes to imnd is because i i feel safer in them. Another is because i want it.

WE do live in a free society still don't we? I guess i'm just against someone that thinks they know it all telling me or anyone else what they do and don't need. You don't need that television or VCR. Most people don't even need that computer they use to surf the interweb with. It isn't about need, it is about want and living in a free country were you can act on that wanting.

Re:FS

[Fallen_Knight]

true, but SUVs should be taxed more to discourge their use because
a) they pollute more
b) they incure more damages when accidents happen
c) i also belive they are usualy exempt from fuel useage standards... but i could be wrong.

Taxing them a bit more and riseing the bar for large truck/SUV ownership would push people to get a smaller car unless they really needed it.

You could even put a provision in the tax that allows those who have good reason to be exempt

Re:FS

[sumdumass]

They are taxed more. You pay the cafe runnover in the price of the vehicle when the emisions standards don't match the cafe standards. And of couse the prices are usually higher so there are more sales tax because of this. So yes they are taxed and cost more because of thier deficiencies.

While causing more damage to the other vehicles in accidents they are saving damage to thier own vehicle and in essence shifting the amout of damage from one vehicle to another. It is basically a wash. Instead of two people going to the hospital and both vehicles being totaled out, one vehicle is totaled and one person goes to the hospital. Of couse thats not always the situation.

Taxing them a bit more and riseing the bar for large truck/SUV ownership would push people to get a smaller car unless they really needed it.

Again with you "unless they really need it" Who are you to tell people what they need? I would really like to know what entitles you or anyone else for that matter to make the decision that people should drive a small yugo instead of a suv "unless they need" to. How do you come up with these standards too? How do you determine who needs what? And i used the make of a yugo, why do we need anyhting more then that? I'm currious to why people think they know what others need. Isn't the fact that we are free enough to make any decision? or is there some higher law that only a few know about?

This "what you need" stuff is about like some religious zealot pushing thier morals on me. I have enough thumpin goign on without some self ritious person saying what i need and don't need. Maybe thats why the majority of americans say publicaly they are concerned about the enviroment but behind the sceenes buy the SUVs and heat with wood to polute the air instead of using the cleaner electric or gas for heat. It is too much liike someone pushing thier religion on others.

Re:FS

[Mycroft_VIII]

" The most frequent one that comes to imnd is because i i feel safer in them."

This reason I suspect is a problem in to many cases. Or rather it goes to far for many suv and OTHER big vehical owner.
Not necessarily you, but I've seen to many suv drivers do dangerous and stupid things on the roads that I honestly doubt most of them would do if they didn't have a FALSE sense of invulnerabilty. The only other subset of driver I see routinely doing some of the agressive driving I've seen from to many suv/big truck owners is teenagers who are well known for thier innability to accurately percieve thier own mortality.
I have no problem with suvs/minivans/big trucks(except the really jacked up ones who's headlights are to high off the ground and thus blind everyone in a normal car), it's just the overly large subset of thier drivers who should have thier liscence pulled till they grow the f#*$ up.

Mycroft

Re:FS

[sumdumass]

I can see that being a problem. Maybe it has to do more with the type of vehicle is more noticable then the other cars though. I'm not doubting you have noticed this trend in more SUV drivers then a honda civic driver but, I have also seen small sportcars do things that should get them pulled form the road too. Things like 0-80 from stoplight to stoplight or taking corners way faster then they shoudl because the car hugs the road better or sometimes passing in no passing zones because they think thier car is fast enough to get out of the road of oncomming trafic.

I guess the point of this is that when a car does somethign better then others or makes them think it does, people start trying to take advantage of it beyond what most of us think is safe. Some true saftey facts about SUVs do exist though. First you sit higher off the road allowing you to see further down the road and thus potential hazards. This is also beneficial durring bad weather situations. Next, because they are larger, there is a larger crush zone allowing the vehicle to absorb more of the impact and lessoning the force exherted on the passengers. Also because there is more room inside most of them, the chances of being cut out of the vehicle after a crash is less. (i'm not sure how much though). Most of the SUVs tend to be four wheel or all wheel drive allowing better controll durring adverse driving conditions. I'm sure there are more but those are at the top of my head.

Bottom line is that if they are driving reckless, i agree they shoudl have thier license pulled. There is no reason to jepordise anyone else that shares the road or has to participate in that same general area. In most states, they have tougher laws when someone causes an accident becasue of reckless driving. I think they actually carry jail time if someone is seriously injured too. I know a guy who passed in a no passing zone and had a head on colision. He ended up with a vehicular asault charge and reckless op charge. He was entanced to 2 years in jail and served 1 full year because of it. And yes, no-one was killed (although one person was criticle for a while) and he had insurance too.

Re:FS

[Mycroft_VIII]

Actually it's not just suv's that are bit more prone to agressive 'I'm big so OF COURSE I can push you around, cut you off, ride your bumber because you're not doing 30mph over,etc,', but also larger trucks, Especially the ones that are jacked 2' higher in the air than will ever make sense.
And while this is mostly just my experience, it's deffinately a tendancy. I put 300-500 miles a week on my car and pay pretty good attention. The smaller vehicles that pull this sort of stunt are almost alwas driven by guys under 30 and women in thier teens and very early twenties, this is a major reason for my suspecting overconfidence.
Oddly enough minivans and pannel trucks(other than those owned by one specific small company out here) seem less likely to drive as agressively as other bigger vehicles.

Mycroft

Re:FS

[BandwidthHog]

Just because someone says you don't *need* a six ton jacked up station wagon, doesn't mean they feel you should be forbidden to buy one. Granted, many people do feel exactly that way, but a lot of us anti-SUV folks do value freedom more than anything else, even our own safety.

Re:FS

[sumdumass]

When ecer you decide what people need and don't need is when history has show those things to disapear. There is a direct relationship with not needing somethign and not being able to buy something.

Granted you don't wish to stop others from practicing that freedom. This is an area that hit home for most people. How many times did your parent decline letting you have something by saying you don't need it? How many times did you ask for somethign at work and be told you didn't need it? Telling someone they don't need somethign has a general negetive effect.

Re:FS

[BandwidthHog]

Good point. Don't wanna set up a whole Forbidden Fruit thing. That's why I like to ridicule them about dick size instead. (I drive a 240sx; you do the math.)

To each their own, though.

Re:FS

[bombadillo]

This thread is probably dead. However, I am tired of the old ,"I can afford an SUV. I should be able to buy it. It's a free society!" argument. This is just the liberal attitude that the "Conservatives" have in this country. Lets see. 1. You are more likely to die in an SUV due to roll over. So you really are not safer. 2. The extra size and weight means more wear and tear on the road. Thus we have to pay more in taxes to keep our roads paved more regularly. 3. The increase in fuel usage means higher prices for fuel. So high amounts of SUV's mean higher gass prices for you and I. 4. The increase in fuel usage also means higher dependence on foreign countries. Thus we have to pay more in taxes and in lives to protect our interests in oil. 5. They polute our air much more. We will have all sorts of fallout from increased medical bills due to air pollution. We are probably experiencing this now with the elevated amounts of asthma in our youths today. Don't think that air pollution impacts your health. Even though I do not own an SUV. I am technically paying an SUV tax. I do not want to subsidize the use of SUV's with my communities money, lives and health just so some people can liberally use SUV's to look cool. This is about being a true Conservative and not wasting a precious resource and doing what is best for society. Some people actually need an SUV like our farmers and small business owners they need the use of big vehicles to keep our society moving. However, the 90% of people that are using them as grocery grabbers need to think about the community and do the right thing. Those people should get taxed to make up for the cost of the community just to look cool.

Re:FS

[sumdumass]

I'm not sure the SUV thing is a liberal verses conservitive issue. First, i know many liberals who own one or more SUV. Second i know many conservatives that think they cost toom much money to operate and wouldn't touch them.

That being said, part of your tax argument is already met. Road funding is raised by a fuel surcharge placed on the gas you buy at the pump. The federal government as well as the states and in some cases county and city governments will tax the fuel. Typicaly around 48 cents per gallon of tax is colected between state and federal governments. This number can increase significanlty in some areas too like wisconsin wich has a 31 cent state fuel tax on top of a 24.4 federal tax.

Seeing that the SUV's fuel econemy is less then most lighter cars, They are paying more taxes reletive to the weight (weight has alot to do with the destructive force on the road way) of the vehicle. Also in the mid 90's, SUV trucks were no longer exempt from the caffe standards meaning that there is an excise tax placed on the ones that don't meant federal guidlines for fuel econemy and emission standards. The people buying the gas guzzleing fuel hogs that are poluting the air are in fact paying a tax and are paying more taxes on a regular basis because of this.

You mentioned the effects of the emisions and ilnesses caused by it. This is a reletive concern. The idea has been floated around for a while but there have been no evidence directly relating to this. There are all kinds of circomstantial evidence pointing to conclusions that exhaust emisions are causing americans to be more sick but the the ilnesses are also being explained away by other means too. This is not saying that it isn't contributing but rather how much and is it significant.

As for the increased fuel prices and dependencies on foreign oil? I would say that it was somewhat of a good thing. The increased fuel prices allow the unionized domestic oil industry to compete with the cheaper foreign oil industry. Thats right, in america, labor cost as well as regulations and other burdens maks it hard for the american oil industry to operate at cheaper prices. When oil was down to 16 dollars per barrel durring part of the clinton years, alot of american oil wells were either capped off or operating at a loss making us even more dependant on foreign oil. It sucks we have to pay more to produce and ship the oil but thats a fact of life. If we stoped purchasing SUV's and foreign oil today our prices would still be high becasue of the cost of production. It would also be nice if we were alowed to tap into some of our oil well areas were enviromental policies or other regulations have made it impossible. With todays technoligy, oil should be able to be extracted responcably with little worry about enviromental disasters and with as little impact on the enviroment as possible.

Of course the ultimate goal would be to move away from oil all together and get something cleaner. Higher prices also help in this transition wich would take more then 25 years (the amount of time before most gas burning vehicles, lawnmowers, etc would be obsolete or impraticle to operate). The alternative fuel sources cost a significantly higher amount of money to produce and the higher fuel prices make them more competetive. Some of this price is develpmental costs and resorces wich should come down as the technoligy becomes more common.

I'm glad you went ahead and posted your comment. I share some of the same concernes. However i don't think i hold them to the same degree of importance as you would/do. The tax issue pretty much has been adress enough that is it not really an issues compaired to the ware and tear on the roads. Also i forgot to mention earlier that there is a surcharge on the tire that SUV's use. This is part of the road tax program. Larger vehicles like class 8 trucks (semi tractor trailers) can have as much as $200 added to the price of a single tire because of this surcharge.

A Little Trite?

[Skye16]

>> Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises (FTTP, see previous) in YOUR neighborhood may involve geysers of raw sewage spewing onto your front yard or sinkholes opening and swallowing moving vehicles.

Still sounds like a pretty fair deal to me!

Re:A Little Trite?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like those odds.

Re:A Little Trite?

[MikeMacK]

But wait a minute, this is Florida, seems like it would be a story if sewage and sinkholes weren't opening up everytime someone dug a hole.

Re:A Little Trite?

[SEWilco]

One of the things Japan does with their infrastructure is they run everything overhead.

But it sure makes a mess when a bird pecks through the overhead sewage lines.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Winkhorst]

You don't need fiber to do away with 56K. I have 768K over copper.

By the way, most of the problems, according to the article, result from incorrect maps, and short of approaching the job like archaeologists, it's just too hard to miss something that's not supposed to be there.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Winkhorst]

The company I work for runs everything overhead, including water, cooling, and sewage. And when the ceiling starts leaking the only way to tell whether it's the roof leaking or the sewage is by the smell....

Re:A Little Trite?

[spikev]

Let us not forget that Florida also has spawn-of-Satan weather. The difference is, the spawns in Florida usually have names given to them by the National Weather Service.

Re:A Little Trite?

[q-the-impaler]

Hurricanes are more devastating that anything you'll find in Oklahoma. Except maybe the citizens.

Re:A Little Trite?

[ConsistentChaos]

ARGH! I absolutely hate it when people uneqivocally say that hurricanes are worse than tornadoes. Yes, the chances of a tornado actually hitting you are less, but if it does, you're screwed six ways from Sunday even if it's only an F2.

Plus, you ALWAYS know where a hurricane is and you have time to get out of the way. That's a hell of a lot better than the 30 seconds a tornado gives you when it appears.

Signed, a Texas resident.

Re:A Little Trite?

[bsartist]

Yeah, and they're boring names too. A hurricane is a frightening thing, so why do we give them everyday names like "Adam", "Bill", "Charlie"? Why not really hellish names like "Asmodean", "Beelzebub", and "Cerberus"?

Re:A Little Trite?

[SEWilco]

And when the ceiling starts leaking the only way to tell whether it's the roof leaking or the sewage is by the smell....

You mean that you are not willing to use any sense other than smell for the task.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Rei]

Overhead wires are less robust than buried wires. They're more vulnerable to earthquakes in some situations. They're far more vulnerable to winds in all situations. They're more vulnerable to ice and lightning. They wear more quickly. Not to mention, they're ugly. They're cheap, though. :)

Re:A Little Trite?

[Winkhorst]

"I" don't intend to have anything to DO with the task. I just need to know whether to put a wastebasket under the drip or evacuate the department....

Re:A Little Trite?

[dgatwood]

Actually, it's easy to miss something that's not supposed to be there. Walk across with a glorified metal detector and mark the location of cables buried in the first few inches of soil. Then use the right tools. There's one that's commonly used for running cable TV lines that slices a groove in the grass about 10-12 inches deep with what amounts to a sharp knife, drops the cable in, and pushes the dirt back together on top of it. There's no good reason to bury anything other than pipes and power lines more than a few inches under the ground.

Alternately, if you just have to dig a deeper trench, some of the more modern digging equipment uses pressurized water and a vacuum pump. This allows you to remove dirt without even damaging thin buried cables or plant roots, much less pipes.

Companies that do an incompetent job of running cables should be fined harshly. There's no excuse for using outdated equipment that poses risks to property, especially if you're a company as big as Verizon. These problems were solved many years ago.

Re:A Little Trite?

[iceperson]

Yeah. But we'd have the sense to get out of the way if we had warning a week in advance.
Quick story about 'nadoes. I remember one sunny afternoon riding my bike through town when I noticed the sky to the west getting dark. Thinking it might rain I started heading for home. Less than 10 minutes later I was laying in a ditch watching a twister from about 200 yards.

Re:A Little Trite?

[ArsonSmith]

Yea, most Cable companies put geysers of raw sewage right in peoples living rooms.

Re:A Little Trite?

[dgatwood]

They don't have to be a problem. The poles don't generally blow down, and if they do, it's because they weren't anchored properly. Thus, the problem is swinging wires and/or debris hitting the wires. This could be solved with conduit.

Of course, that would be very expensive, which is why nobody does this on a large scale. Still, overhead wires aren't inherently less robust. The wires along the monorail tracks at Disney World don't fall down every storm. They're in conduit (and generally mounted to the side of a structure).

Re:A Little Trite?

[WebCrapper]

As an Army Brat thats lived in too many states to count, I can second this. I'd much rather be living in a hurricane zone than in the midwest when thinking about the weather.

Heck, a lot of people party when a hurricane comes in, the media likes to play in the wind... See what happens when a tornado shows up somewhere - everyone runs like hell except for storm chasers trying to 1. help people that aren't lucky enough to win against a tornado 2. Study them - and 3 (I really don't even consider these people true chasers) - chasing tornados for art (cameras and video) and even then, all 3 groups still try to stay away from them.

I'd say a hurricane is like a dull knife, it can hurt you, but the damage isn't (usually) too bad. A tornado is focused like an exacto knife cutting right to the bone.

Now, mod me off topic and be done with it ;-)

Re:A Little Trite?

[M. Silver]

debris hitting the wires. This could be solved with conduit.

Overhead conduit?

I don't get it... I'm not seeing how this would be any less susceptible to debris, nor how it would be at all practical when we (in Kansas) have 60mph winds every spring and most autumns, even when we don't have tornadoes. And hail, don't forget the hail. No rains of frogs and/or fishes as of yet, but those wouldn't surprise me either.

On the other hand, our water and sewer lines are buried six feet down (if memory serves; we replaced a line a few years back), and the frost line is much higher than that, so the only thing they'd be hitting would be their own phone lines. Or power lines (mostly overhead, but we've got an underground line connecting the house and garage, for instance), but those are easy to detect, *and* a self-correcting problem.

Re:A Little Trite?

[stanmann]

As I understand it poles are supposed to fall down. I've been told they are designed to collapse(safely?) when struck by a car.

Re:A Little Trite?

[budgenator]

After a hurricane I've never seen 40 square miles of homes leveled to the foundation, Dumpsters pushed through brick-cement block wall three stories above the ground, or a 2X12 going through a car tire. But I've seen all of that after a tornado and that was in Alabama, out in Oklahoma they get the big ones. No only reason I'm alive is because it skipped over.
I Had three steps advance warning.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Anonymous Coward]

Untilities overhead is not the best idea. I'll give you an example: Raleigh, NC (where I live). There are lots of utilties strung up on poles. That's great, except when the weather gets bad (which isn't that often), it gets _bad_. We have a strong ice storm at least once a year, and that brings down lines... lots of lines. That means we don't have power or internet access for days. I'm the lucky one, though... int he city it's only a few days, in the outlying areas it can be a week.
No, underground utilties are better.
The problem here is the contractors that utilities use: the lowest bidder is never the best choice. The lowest bidder is usually one guy and his boring machine... if he hits some other utility line, he'll never be able to pay the fines. His company goes bankrupt and someone else (we taxpayers and/or ratepayers) have to foot the bill. Use someone competent, with decent insurance, and there won't be a problem.

Re:A Little Trite?

[ilovelinux]

haha not quite.

The pole MIGHT come down, if you hit it hard enough, but believe me it's anchored.

You are very likely to be hurt badly if you hit a pole.

Re:A Little Trite?

[robyannetta]

>> Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises (FTTP, see previous) in YOUR neighborhood may involve geysers of raw sewage spewing onto your front yard or sinkholes opening and swallowing moving vehicles.

I think I'll order this for my neighbors.

Re:A Little Trite?

[cayenne8]

"I can second this. I'd much rather be living in a hurricane zone than in the midwest when thinking about the weather."

Well, I've lived in TX, AR, and now New Orleans. Well, one thing that is nicer about hurricanes than tornadoes...is that yes, you do generally get more warning. It was a bitch to wake up in Little Rock in the middle of the night and hear the tornado sirens going off...and having them whiz (hopefully) over your head.

That being said, in general, the damage by a tornado is much less than a hurricane. It is very damaging, but generally in a very small area. A hurricane can, as we've seen lately, blow away whole large towns, and flood them entirely.

This is especially true of New Orleans. If a slow moving Cat 3 or higher comes up the mouth of the river....the winds, storm surge...and the fact we're so freakin' way below sea level...would essentially wipe the city from the face of the earth. Entire city could easily be over 20 ft. under water. And with the levee system we have...once this happens, the water would be held in and have to all be pumped out from the outside.

And even though the hurricane can be tracked for weeks...trouble is, they still can't give you a good estimate quickly enough to know if you have to leave (for your life) or not. You don't automatically get let off for work if it comes close...this last time with Ivan, they did let us off work 2 days before predicted landfall. I left at about 9am Tues for Ivan. Trouble is...there is really only one main road out of the City...I-10...either east or west or Airline Hwy. It was deadlocked. It took me over 16 hours to get from NOLA to Shreveport...and I was in a car with friends born and raised here that knew all the backroads. We were lucky...others took much longer to get a shorter distance. Getting millions of people out is hard (once out, you need a place ot stay, and every hotel from NOLA to Little Rock, Houston, Memphis, etc was booked solid)....and basically, if Ivan had hit just miles closer to NOLA...it would have hit with people still stranded on the highway trying to get out of the city, and lots of people would have died.

Anyway....saying a hurricane is like a 'dull knife' is pretty far from the truth. Yes a tornado is devastating, but, in general, they are not on the ground for long, and do isolated damage. Hurricanes come in, dump tons of rain on you...throw storm surge up if coastal, so that water can't drain...and the winds can shoot 2x4's through brick walls in Cat 4-5 storms. A hurricane can wipe a city or more off the map....in facts as I've heard it, there used to be an island resort off the coast from NY city I think, that in the 17 or 1800's was wiped away out to see....and something similar I think happened in TX.

So...neither is fun, but, I'd have to say hurricanes cause by far more damage and chaos by evacuating millions of people....

Re:A Little Trite?

[Synn]

One of the things Japan does with their infrastructure is they run everything overhead.

Wouldn't last one hurricane season down here in Florida.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Black Copter Control]

Id say that a hurricane is more like a strap -- mostly annoying and bruising, but if it catches you edge-on it can cause some real damage (( nastist part of a hurri cane is usually related ocean activity)) -- but it's very widespread, and you can usually see it coming.

A tornado, on the other hand, uses less total force, but it's concentrated into a single point of contact -- not unlike a stiletto. Like the previous poster said -- if it hits you, you're toast. Also (rather like a stiletto), you don't usually realize what's in store for you until the last second.

I've experienced near-hurricane force winds... it was more annoying than anything... It hit a tent city, and tents that weren't properly anchored went flying (including a hard-shell cook tent and two people trying to hold it down)

I've also seen the aftermath of a force-5 tornado (Edmonton). With a force-5 tornado, stuff that gets a glancing blow is badly damaged. Even the best-bult buildings are essentially destroyed by a direct hit.

I admit, though, that huge parts of Florida are caught between a rock and a hard place. Below ground you have a near-surface water table. Above ground you risk Hurricane damage. On the other hand, it sounds like Verizon hasn't been completely responsible for the fact that they're doing massive work in a difficult area.

Re:A Little Trite?

[FrYGuY101]

Hey!

I was HIT by Hurricanes Cerberus, Faustus, Infernus AND Juvenal! That's not funny!

Err... Charley, Francis, Ivan and Jeanne.

Okay, it's a little funny.

Re:A Little Trite?

[macdaddy]

A metal detector won't detect a non-metallic water line such as the PVC water lines in use in every single new residential construction job in the last 20 years. Ground penetrating radar is expensive as hell. Witching works well if you can find a compotent person to do it and have some spare time to kill for a project this massive.

The implement you're talking about is a "vibratory plow," also known as a shudder plow and cable plow. Vermeer makes a lot of them. You can a use shudder plow to lay a large bundle of fiber, such as what you'd use to connect COs together, but you can't use it to run fiber to individual houses. You're only talking about pulling 2-4 pairs of SMF to each residence. You would need an immense amount of insulation to keep the plow for beating the SMF to death in such a small pull.

Companies and counties that do an incompotent job of maintaining accurate cable/line plant records should be fined harshly. There's no excuse for relying on and distributing outdated records that pose risks to property, especially if you're as big as Hillsborough County, FL. These problems should have been solved many years ago. Better yet, they never should have happened in the first place.

Re:A Little Trite?

[orulz]

Funniest post I've read in a while!

Re:A Little Trite?

[AndyL]

I think people are expecting too much of the cable companies. I'm pretty sure the local one would burn down my house for laughs if they thought they could blame it on someone else.

(I'll bet they'd still keep billing me, though!)

Re:A Little Trite?

[AndyL]

"Witching works well if you can find a compotent person to do it and have some spare time to kill for a project this massive."

Competent witchers are hard to find because they're all in line to claim their million bucks from The Amazing Randi.

In fact, I don't know why anyone who could operate a divining rod would waste their time finding pvc water pipes for construction crews. Randi is offering a million dollars for an afternoon's work. I can't imagine construction crews pay nearly that well.

Re:A Little Trite?

[dgatwood]

Overhead conduit? I don't get it... I'm not seeing how this would be any less susceptible to debris...

Metal poles tend not to blow over or flex very much (not that wooden poles flex much), and conduit between such poles would tend not to flap around in the breeze, which is what causes most service outages. Debris makes up only a small fraction of the outages. Even in cases of debris, though, a conduit would absorb some of the impact, thus sparing the wire inside from some of the stress.

Remember that most utility wires are wired pole to pole in a continuous wire with periodic taps, so if an impact is slow enough, it's possible for it to simply pull extra wire from somewhere down the line (up to the point at which the wire snaps under the tension or one of the taps gets caught in an eye). By contrast, if an impact is sudden, the wire will snap immediately because of friction where it is "attached" to the pole. Thus, the conduit wouldn't have to stop the impact to make a significant dent in the failure rate. It just has to slow down the impact enough to prevent the wire inside from snapping.

Conduit would be even more useful for ice (which was a big problem where I grew up). Instead of ice adding weight to a wire, causing it to reach such high tension that it snaps, the ice would be pulling down on a piece of metal conduit which would be taut between two metal poles, and those poles would be being pulled almost equally from both sides. The net result should be nearly zero failures caused by ice (unless it gets heavy enough to rip the conduit away from one of the poles).

It's hard to overestimate just how much reliable our power, cable, telephone, and other utilities would be if all of our infrastructure (both above and below the ground) were run through some sort of conduit. Underground utilities make even more sense. Need to run a new line? Send a crawler robot through the cubic foot box tunnel with the wire attached. No more digging up streets, no more wrecking people's yards, etc. But I digress.

Re:A Little Trite?

[dgatwood]

Depends on the poles. There are breakaway poles, but they aren't in common use in the U.S. as far as I know.

Re:A Little Trite?

[CAIMLAS]

Your sig makes me twitch uncontrollably and provokes my post-traumatic stress syndrome - from this last goddamn election.

Seriously, do a public service and change your sig.

Re:A Little Trite?

[M. Silver]

Most of the major outages I know of are caused by debris. Tree limbs, mostly... this is the land of the cottonwood, which deals with wind damage by shedding branches. (And growing them back. Although technically hardwoods, cottonwoods are very soft and quick-growing.) We had a really impressive dent put in steel guttering by a tree branch... fifty feet from the closest tree, and by wind direction that was probably *not* the tree that did it.

I dunno. Conduit would help, certainly, but it would also be slower to repair, right? Around here it seems that the power and phone wires follow the cottonwood principle: build it cheap, because it'll just blow apart, then repair it quick and dirty. Works pretty well, at least if you live near the business district (as I do) or in one of the wealthy suburbs... outages last a few hours, max.

Underground conduit is best, where you can get it (aside from sandiness here and there, we're in good land for it, low water table and shallow frost line), but unfortunately our utilities are fairly screwed up here (as everywhere). We'd pay for the conduit, and Kansas City would be the ones who got it, if history is any guide.

And crawler robot? Why not just leave a fishtape in all of them?

Re:A Little Trite?

[macdaddy]

My uncle is very good at it. He witched the well for my folks' new house. He tracked 3 springs coming out of the hill behind their house and staked out a spot where they all converged. Sure enough we dug down I believe it was 6 feet and hit all three springs. Water was shooting out the sides in three 1" streams like a garden hose. We hit bedrock at 14 feet and that was their well. Excellent job. There's a couple here in my state that made the news 6 or so months ago for witching unmarked graves in an abandoned cemetary. Apparently someone thought it was weird and called the news station. Nothing weird about it. It works like a champ. The only time it's reported to not work so well is if you have large veins of minerals or a high ground water table. Or of course if you have an absolute clutter of existing lines in the way.

Personally I'm a fan of burying any line in the ground with a couple pairs of cheap copper. It can be as inexpensive as Cat3 ripped from some old office building during a remodeling. Splice it together and tape it up. Then when you need to reliably locate the line dig up either end and hook up a tone generator to it. That's a snap to locate with no so expensive hardware. I wish more people did that.

Re:A Little Trite?

[sumdumass]

I live in central ohio. We get strong wind and ice storms from time to time. Most of the overhead wires here (cable, phone and electricity) can take the stress of the wind and ice. We usually get at least one ice storm a year and more services are knocked out by automobile crashing into the poles then wires snapping. Maybe they are doing somethign differeent here?

Re:A Little Trite?

[sumdumass]

A metal detector won't detect a non-metallic water line such as the PVC water lines in use in every single new residential construction job in the last 20 years. Ground penetrating radar is expensive as hell. Witching works well if you can find a compotent person to do it and have some spare time to kill for a project this massive.

When i worked for an enviromental services company, we had to do cleanup on some major spills. Sometime this included pulling the topsoil and underlining dirt up 10 or more feet deep and an area from a square foot to several hundred yards. In alot of the situations we encountered a chemical spill would stop anyone from safley marking water lines and such. We had some type of tone genorator that we could connect to any pipe plastive pvc or metal and follow the pipes with an acurracy of around 6 inches.

I'm not sure why somethign like this cannot be done? hook it in the house and follow the pipe out to the street? or maybe dig to find part of the pipe at the junction most likley to exist and then follow it. I forget the name of the device itself we just refered to it as toning. It saved us numberous times cause a watermain break while cleaning up a patasium spill or some kind of acid spill could create all kinds of problems. Not to mention the excess water could cause runoff into nearby streams and basical defeat the purpose of our cleanup efforts.

Re:A Little Trite?

[Nutshell_TA]

It's Slashdot and you say "Bill" is not a hellish name?!

Re:A Little Trite?

[AndyL]

Perhaps your Uncle should contact the James Randi Educational Foundation. So far the dosers/witchers that have tried to claim the million bucks have turned out to be self deluded and incapable of finding water. So much so that Randi has written an article about them.

"Sure enough we dug down I believe it was 6 feet and hit all three springs."
This certainly sounds impressive, but how do you know that digging elsewhere in the hill would not have produced the same (or better) results? Six feet is pretty shallow, but what if it had been ten feet down? Would your uncle have stilled claimed success?

"There's a couple here in my state that made the news 6 or so months ago for witching unmarked graves in an abandoned cemetary. "
This sounds less impressive. Unmarked graves are often pretty densly packed. They also often cause visual clues on the surface.

"The only time it's reported to not work so well "
The only time it's Reported by whom? People who make a living dowsing? There's lot's of reports of spectacular failures of dowsing ability. Here is one that's related to the topic at hand : An objective test involving running running through pipes.

Don't get me wrong. I think it'd be the coolest thing in he world to see Randi give out that million bucks, but I also belive that if a witcher could really do what they think they can do, then one of them would have proven it by now. (You get to have a lawyer present during the experiment, so that you can sue Randi if he refuses to acknowledge your victory, but that's never happened either.)

Re:A Little Trite?

[ArsonSmith]

OK, just for you.

Re:A Little Trite?

[mpe]

By the way, most of the problems, according to the article, result from incorrect maps, and short of approaching the job like archaeologists, it's just too hard to miss something that's not supposed to be there.

Archaeologists would typically use "geophys", i.e. metal detectors, ground radar, resistivity, magnetic response, etc. in order to work out where to dig. Such techniques generally show up modern pipes and cables very well.

Re:A Little Trite?

[mpe]

Tornados and hurricanes are apples and oranges.

"Grapes and watermelons" might be a better comparison.

Re:A Little Trite?

[macdaddy]

I'm quite familiar with James Randi. He's a skeptic about anything that will draw attention to himself and thus increase his rates on the lecture circuits. Not a very convincing arguement. I'd compare it to the DMA talking about email "marketers." ;-)

To raise public awareness of these issues, the Foundation offers a $1,000,000 prize to any person or persons who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability of any kind under mutually agreed upon scientific conditions. Well witching has nothing to do with psychic, supernatural or paranormal abilities regardless of what the name implies. I'm sure at some point in the future we'll realize that it's simply some low level magnetic field from our own body that reacts with that of the water/sewer/power/telephone line. It'll be a really simple answer and we'll all kick ourselves for not seeing it sooner I'm sure. Well witching has been around for an estimated 6-8000 years (depicted by wall paintings in an African cave). There are certainly nuts out there that do it. The ones who think they go into some sort of "alpha" mental state are rather odd. Still it's not possible to discount the successes. How about I refer you to the 10 year study done by the University of Munich. Here's the library index reference if you'd like to locate a copy:

Betz, Hans-Dieter: Unconventional Water Detection - Field Test of the Dowsing Technique in Dry Zones. 2nd Edition: ISBN 3-88085-489-0

James Randi was part of the test you site in your link. I wouldn't consider a test by him to be objective. He has a financial stake in disproving dowsing. His tests to locate chunks of gold and brass was most amusing. I'm not aware of any dowsers ever claiming to be a substitute for metal detectors. When was the last time you saw a dowser on a beach hunting for lost watches and change? When was the last time you saw some guy with a metal detector doing the same (assuming you spend time on a beach of coure)?

Like I said earlier, I don't know the science behind it but I'm sure there is science behind it. James Randi's insistence that dowsing is nothing more than an "idiomotor reaction" is certainly the ostrich approach to answering the question. "If I can't prove it with my science then it must be a scam." It's been proven to exist well beyond the laws of chance many times by people more reputable than James Randi and E. H. Boudreau. Eventually someone will figure out how it actually works from the scientific perspective. There's been questions in the past that science couldn't answer. Those that offered answers, whether they would be proven right or not, were often branded as nut cases by conventional wisdom. Dare I say the world isn't flat, it's round? Over time, though, science has answered those questions. At one point and time our ancestors thought Native Americans were nuts for chewing on the bark of Willow trees or Snake Root. Science proved what their medicinal values really are and now those same Native Americans look pretty damned smart. Give it time. Science unfettered by politics and unbiased by money will answer this question too.

Re:A Little Trite?

[macdaddy]

That's interesting. I don't believe I've heard of such a device but I'll look into it. I'm always looking for useful tools.

Verizon probably didn't want to have to get each and every homeowner to let them into their home (actually under their home since there aren't basements around there) to use the tone generator. That's a unique idea though. If you could use the properties of water to carry a sound wave, perhaps it could be detectable down the line. Interesting idea! Witching the lines would probably have worked for those contractors. It's pretty common. It's been around a long long time.

Re:A Little Trite?

[sumdumass]

By witching, are you saying using a divining rod and such? I have seen people use them before when we had a well dug on our farm when growing up. He found water closer then the watertables showed and saved us quite a bit of money on getting the well drilled. Somethign about not having to drill thew a shelf of some type. I was a kid then so my memory isn't too clear about it. I do remeber my uncles bragging about how much less it cost compared to the neibors wells.

Re:A Little Trite?

[macdaddy]

More or less. I don't call it divining. To me that implies some sort of spiritual nonsense had something to do with it. I've seen it done (and did it myself) with metallic rods made of both brass and heavy coat hangers. We actually did that in school when I was a kid. Worked like a champ. People also do it with the forks of various types of wood. While reading up on it today to counter anti-witchings folks I came across an article in I believe the Seattle Times that talked about witching and listing numerous objects used to witch wells including keychains and string with a metal nut on the end. While I can't vouch for those unusual items I can say that metal rods work just fine and I've heard the same about some sticks from reliable acuqaintences.

Re:A Little Trite?

[q-the-impaler]

Looking at the big picture, Hurricanes do significantly more damage. Tornadoes are compact and short lived, but hurricanes can span 300 miles and exert continuous damage for hours or days. They affect a whole coast, and not just a few counties. Also note that hundreds of tornadoes are spawned from hurricanes. I know, one took off the roof of my shed when Hurricane Charlie pummeled us.

Re:A Little Trite?

[q-the-impaler]

Hurricane Andrew in South Florida. Homestead, FL was leveled.

Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Kenja]

"Verizon crews installing fiber optic lines have hit nearly 200 water and sewer lines, costing almost $103,000 in repairs."

This takes incompetence to a whole new level. I mean, its just a cable. I've installed lots of local and wide area networks without hitting even one sewer line.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[meme_police]

No kidding. How many things are safely installed underground every day around the country? This has nothing to do with FTTP.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Megaweapon]

I was hired to install some fiber in some house in Amityville, NY. I was later accused of giving Satan internet access.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[OverlordQ]

Dont blame Verizon then, you think they actually themselves are digging the wells? Blame it on stupid sub-contractors.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Kenja]

"Dont blame Verizon then, you think they actually themselves are digging the wells? Blame it on stupid sub-contractors."

Why not blame Verizon for hiring these monkeys? Lowest bidder is not allways the best choice. When given the option of useing reputable contractors or Cletus the gapped tooth back hoe operator I would use the people with a good track record, even if Cletus is willing to work for road kill.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[shawn(at)fsu]

It looks like it because Verizon fell victim to using the lowest bidder for it's subcontracting in laying the cable, while it isn't FTTP's fault it's verizons fault for not hiring better contractors and the sub contractors fault for doing shoddy work to save a buck.

I'd want them to stop to if they've had over 200 incidents, boil water notices are a pain, not having phone service is an inconvenience and without 911 a potential lawsuit.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[RPI Geek]

Incompetence is right! This is ridiculous! There's no excuse for hitting all these water mains and sewer lines.

Well maybe the laws are different in FL, but in NY State there's a number you have to call before digging to ensure that there's no underground wires/pipes/etc. When you call this number, they in turn call the right people to go to the site and mark the underground lines. Every so often there's a mistake, but it's nowhere near 200 times in a month! When I worked at Time Warner Cable for a summer, we'd get faxes from these people, and we'd send the supervisors who knew the area to mark the ground. If no one knew the area, there was equipment to find the wires and mark them properly. This way, when the people who were digging showed up, they knew where NOT to dig.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[schon]

reputable contractors or Cletus the gapped tooth back hoe operator

Hey, Cletus and Merle did damn good work!

Just make sure they keep the dog away from the cement mixer. :o)

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Ender_Stonebender]

I live in Pinellas county, Florida, which happens to be one county over from Hillsborough. The problem is not FTTP installation, it's the fact that the water table is about two feet below the ground, resulting in every underground conduit being stuck in that two-foot space, and shitty as-built documentation. No one here has a basement because if they did, the only thing you could keep in it would be alligators. They run into the same things trying to install natural gas pipelines.

--Ender

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Chundra]

No, no, NO! The little orange spraypaint marks on the ground mean "dig here". Aint that right, Clem?

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[schon]

The lowest bidder is normally the clean cut guy trying to break into the business

No pun intended, right? :o)

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Meostro]

This sort of explains it, they're apparently just "trenching" at random. They've done a million more feet of digging than they needed to:

He said in the past few months, crews have trenched about 5.5 million feet of earth in Hillsborough County and laid about 4.5 million feet of fiber-optic cable

I would have throught that they would lay a couple strands of cable for every trench, such that feet trenched < feet laid.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Winkhorst]

If you'd actually read the article, you'd realise that the maps are bad, so all the spray paint in the world ain't gonna do the trick....

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[TykeClone]

Burying everything in only 2 feet of depth - good thing you don't have to worry about frost or else that wouldn't work!

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[bastion_xx]

It looks like it because Verizon fell victim to using the lowest bidder for it's subcontracting in laying the cable

What, you mean the lowest bidder is "Three Blind Mice Cable Installaters"????? Who knew?!!!

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Honig the Apothecary]

Then you get somebody to use the tools that every company should have if they are doing underground instalations.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[wankledot]

Verizon is one of our competitors in the networking market we serve up here in the Northwest (schools) and let me tell you, we're more than happy to have them competing with us. I haven't met a single customer that is happy with the service that Verizon has provided. I don't know much about their cell service, but they have really awful networking and professional services

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Fulcrum of Evil]

I was later accused of giving Satan internet access.

What's the big deal? Maybe he'll answer a 419 email. Either that, or he could spend all his time on slashdot instead of doing something productive.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Kiryat Malachi]

I'd like a basement I could keep alligators in.

It would make keeping my relatives kids quiet during dinner a lot easier.

"Hey, Scotty, want to see a real live alligator?"

"Sure, Uncle K!"

"Well, if you don't shut up, you'll see one up close. Specifically, you will see its teeth."

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[RPI Geek]

And whose fault is it that the maps are so bad? I stick by my convictions and continue to call incompetence, whether it's the city's fault or the subcontractor's.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Detritus]

In the old days, it would have been done by full-time employees of the Bell Operating Company. People with training and experience. Now, they would rather save a buck by contracting everything out to the lowest bidder.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[slapout]

I wonder if they tried using a metal detector before they started digging...

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[FecesFlingingRhesus]

No, what you want are the crocodiles down here, far more aggressive.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[gethoht]

Yeah... some of the maps might be off, but there is equipment that can detect a huge pipe made of steel underground. It's not rocket science.

I've lived in hillsborough county(Tampa) since I was twelve, and I've done plenty of construction work down here, including digging holes for electric lines(IBEW). There is no excuse for this amount of incompetence. 1 incident, maybe, 5 incidents.... maybe, but 200 incidences in a couple months time is not acceptable at all.

99% of construction work, above or below ground is shoddy in Florida. Want proof? How about bringing a halt to the construction of a half-way done expressway, because part of it collapsed, and the rest of the columns are sinking past their tolerances(in hillsborough county no less). (See here) Cheap labor and lack of regulations lead to these kinds of messes.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[macdaddy]

You must have forgetten to RTFA. The counties maps show most of the older lines in incorrect spots. How do you avoid a line that's not supposed to be there? You can't. The newer water and sewer installations utilize PVC which as anyone with any experience will tell you happens to be very easy to break, even with an accurate map. The blame here rests on the county's shoulders. They are the incompotent ones who couldn't keep their records straight and show lines where they actually aren't.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[macdaddy]

Look ma, another person who didn't RTFA! Fancy that.

The county's maps locates many of the older lines in the wrong spots. It's pretty hard to miss a line that not supposed to be there in the first place. The newer installations use PVC (common) which is exceptionally easy to break, even with an accurate map. That's expected. There isn't a cost-effective way around that. Fortunately that only affects one installation at a time.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Moofie]

That'd work great if PVC water pipes were made of metal instead of, er, PVC.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[Kiryat Malachi]

I was really thinking rats... but then I did just see The Deer Hunter, and am back to my usual pathological hostility to all living things.

Zombie rats, that's how I'd get around the living part.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[RPI Geek]

Notice I didn't say who was incompetent. The people who drew up the maps / maintained records should have kept them accurate and up-to-date!

I maintain my claim of incompetence.

Re:Dear gods, its just an optical cable!

[jthayden]

I was hired to install some fiber in some house in Amityville, NY. I was later accused of giving Satan internet access.

You misspelt Redmond, WA.

Not on my premises, thank you....

[kngthdn]

Verizon: Delivering the wrong sort of fiber.

Re:Not on my premises, thank you....

[Slime-dogg]

Fiber: It keeps the crap running smoothly.

"until installation is safer"

[codergeek42]

thank God! We didn't want Joe Q Public running their own unpatched IIS servers, did we?

Easy solution!

[Anonymous Coward]

figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside.

Well that's easy, drive your kids around in a different type of car, like an SUV.. problem solved!

Re:Easy solution!

[BJZQ8]

Won't someone please think of the children?

Re:Easy solution!

[dr_dank]

figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside.

To paraphrase Nathan Hale: "I regret that they have but one life to give for my broadband".

Re:Easy solution!

[tuba_dude]

We are thinking of the children. Some of us are thinking of them in the oven, smothered in BBQ sauce, others are thinking of them at the bottoms of sewage-filled sinkholes in florida.

Is that all it takes?

[raider_red]

I've had all that happen at my house, and I still don't have fiber! That just isn't fair.

bah

[nomadic]

until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside.

Luddites.

Wow, thats crazy

[Zanek]

I suspect this will be happening alot more considering all the digging they will be doing .
Perhaps one day they can lay the fiber over the telephone lines (since everyone needs those) and
avoid all the digging up (though there might be alot of interference).

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Skye16]

I don't understand how an electrical current is going to affect light...

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[redphive]

The whole point of laying FTTP is to get rid of the phone lines and enable them to offer a broader spectrum of services (voice/video/data/beer on tap)

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[lordsilence]

Ugh.. fibre along airborn telephone lines?
I doubt this would be a viable solution. Not here in sweden at least. There's a reason why you put things underground.

With interference, did you mayhaps mean electornic interference or pure bruteforce? You know, fibre is probably the kind of cabling least suspectable for interferance from electrical devices or cabling.

However, brute force is another matter.. it's hell of a lot more expensive to repair fibre then telephone-lines or powerlines.

Everyear, thousands of incidents with trees falling over telephonelines and other problems. It's expensive enough as it is with telephone, but adding fibre to it..

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[j0shwalk3r]

Fiber is not affected by electrical interference, as it is an optical transmission. This isn't a bad idea, outside the fact that the point of the fiber is so people don't need phone lines.

The reason they can't just go over phone lines is most likely that phone lines are burried shollow and unprotected. Whereas the fiber would most likely buried deeper in a protective conduit. So to burry over the phone line would require burrying under the phone line.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Kordmp]

The trend is to move away from copper. People use cell phones more and more as there primary phone. If the power goes out you still have a phone. The pots lines are no longer really needed. And if it comes to 911 most phones have gps in them and since I believe it is mandated that all have them by the next year or two, I believe the plan is when you dial 911 they know instantly where you are from your gps coord.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[timster]

I know that I personally always keep a fire going, and leaves nearby, so I can send smoke signals as a backup in case all these newfangled "electronic" devices fail.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Carty]

"Ugh.. fibre along airborn telephone lines?
I doubt this would be a viable solution."

Here in Massachusetts Verizon is doing exactly that with their FIOS deployment. Cable companies have done it for years. Much to expensive here to bury cables.

I'd imagine it's actually less expensive to repair a fiber than the equivalent bundle of (hundreds of) copper pairs, no?

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Mr. Slippery]

People use cell phones more and more as there primary phone. If the power goes out you still have a phone. The pots lines are no longer really needed.

If the power goes out at my house, I still have phone service. POTS works on batteries for a good long time. (Though you have to have a wired phone. Remember those? You can pick one up cheap at a thrift store as a backup.)

And Murphy's Law tells us that if I need to dial 911, that's when my cell phone battery will have just died. Ooops!

POTS is still significantly more reliable, and give a higher quality voice signal, than cellular.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

go ahead rely on "newfangled electronic devices"... I work on them everyday, and I know better.

You aren't nesscesarily a luddite if you want a technology to actually prove itself before you adopt it as your sole communications method.

Cell phones are great, but cell networks are built on a shoestring budget because they are considered as important as landline phones to the telcos. Fiber is less prone to interference, but more prone to hardware failure and power blackouts. Some times it pays to rely on simple things.

I enjoy using my GPS when I'm backpacking, but you can be guaranteed I have my compass and topo map too.

Essentially if I want to call 911, my phone HAD BETTER WORK!

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Flying Purple Wombat]

I used to say POTS is more reliable, also. But, in the last 6 weeks, I have lost dial tone 6 times. When that happens, calling my number results in a busy signal. Local telco (Sprint) has been out to "fix" it each time. This weekend, it was out from Saturday morning until Monday afternoon (the techs don't work on weekends, apparently).

Yes, I paid my bill ;-) No, it's not my inside wiring or equipment, as proved by testing at the network interface box. No dial tone at the NI and only 2.5V across the pair (should be approx 48V) with the inside wiring disconnected.

My DSL service (on the same copper pair) has been completely unaffected by the outages.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[ilovelinux]

that's extremely strange. Normally your DSL doesn't work before you lose your dial tone.

If you do indeed have the house wiring pulled off and you are only getting 2.5VDC across tip and ring, it sounds like your pair is shorted together outside... Funny the DSL still works!

Calling you number gives you a busy signal because the line is shorted out and hence the switch thinks you are off hook (using the phone.)

Call the telco and tell them to fix their damn plant! 6 times in the last 6 weeks? I'd be calling the regualtory body in your area.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[ilovelinux]

as do I, but it's slashdot. When in Rome...

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[csimpkin]

I think that you mean run the fiber above ground over the telephone poles. The problem is that fiber is sensitive to uv radiation. It darkens the fiber. So to run it above ground you need heavy and expensive cladding. So, naturally running it below ground is the preferred solution.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[kiltedtaco]

There is fiber on poles everywhere here. Almost every cable company has a decent ammount of fiber in the air going to the nodes, which are also in the air. Telephone companies use fiber on poles too. Sometimes it's just infeasable to get the right of way to lay fiber. Nearly every decent sized street around here has fiber on the poles. You can notice it by the little red or orange tags on the fiber at every pole, so nobody digs their gaffs into it.

And to reply to a reply to the parent post, fiber is more expensive to repair usually. Repairing fiber requires a special splice truck, with a fusion splicer in it, and trained (expensive) techs. There's probably only one fiber splice truck in a small town, probably less than 5 for a decent sized city. Repairing a high pair cable (assuming it's PIC) may take longer, but it can fixed by any outside plant tech.

The splicing costs for this project must be enormous.

Re:Wow, thats crazy

[Kordmp]

I only remember once my battery ever running out and that was do to the fact that I was negligant in charging it within a weeks time. Heck if I am only using the phone a couple times a day w/o charging, it will still last me 7-10 days. I have some friends houses who's POTS line is not directory charged. They have to keep a battery in there basement to charge the line. This of course is not reliably checked by the phone company and of course every few years during an outage the phone line doesn't work. So what I am saying is make sure you battery is charged or have an emergency battery on hand for your phone. And usually when my power goes out my phone goes out because the phone and power run across the same lines in my area. The intention of all of this is to provide the same level of service, the fiber is going to go back to the colo...so the home run failure rate should be actually less. The network behind it is the same network that runs the voice now, so it is just as reliable. The only issue is power. So maybe this means we are responsible for providing our own power now...or maybe they will give us all batteries like they do with people where they don't supply power across the line, although I doubt it. And as for higher quality voice signal, I could care less, as long as it isn't breaking up, which these days I experience very little, then I could care less, all I need to do is understand the person. Now I am a bit bias because I am not a big phone person to begin with. When you talk on the phone I believe you give the information intended and get off. No phone call should last more than 10 minutes. Even in business....wait especially in business.

Low Bid Contractors

[ackthpt]

Verizon's getting their money's worth.

next on news 10, more sh!t than usual with your internet connection...

Re:Low Bid Contractors

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, and they are still up to their dirty tricks. Still getting calls from out-of-state recruiters trying to get in as subcontrators... for salaries far below par. Senior SysAdmins on-call 24x7 are only worth $27.50/hr MAX (straight time, no overtime payments allowed).

You be the judge if you want to work for a company like this. Hear its getting to be as bad as working for MCI and Bellsouth on issues like this as well.

Ground penetrating radar?

[FiReaNGeL]

"Verizon also is looking at other means, including using ground-penetrating radar and other technology, to locate lines before crews dig."

Don't they have maps to locate lines, sewers and such? Don't tell me they're digging blindly...

"County auditors examine the cause of each break and determine whether Verizon or water department officials are to blame. The responsible party is billed, said Rich Cummings, section manager for line maintenance for the water department."

It seem that Verizon will be paying the bill in the end anyway... of course, you can't pay for all the trouble it cause to citizens... can't they be careful?

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[CdBee]

Rich Cummings has a mildly amusing name for someone who makes a living providing sewerage services...

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[Hyecee]

In Virginia they have a service that will come out, for free, and mark every underground pipe and cable before you dig. If I understand it right, I think it's even illegal to do ANY digging unless you call them first.

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[Soporific]

I'm surprised no one has been lit up by a live wire yet.

~S

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[Mysticalfruit]

They should have maps. Also there's a system called "Dig Safe". You call them and a guy (usually someone just like my Dad) comes out and uses location equipment to find and mark all of the underground lines for you. Which brings up another point. There already is all kinds of great equipment on the market that'll allow you to find water/gas lines. The particular system my dad uses, works just like the tone generator you'd use to find a live pair. You just clip it to the pipe where it comes out of the side of the house (such as a gas regulator) or a valve box in the street) and you use an antennae to trace the signal. Been around for easily 15 years and works like a charm. As for electric, the system that my dad uses will also pick up electrical hum as well, so concieveably you could use it to find underground electrical as well. (though it's really not designed for that)

I don't see much difference between a minivan eating sinkhole and Verizon's service. (Other than the fact that at least a sinkhole leads to a decent pipe....) Eitherway, the results the same... your going along fine and suddenly your neck deep in shit with no way out.

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[rahvin112]

Don't they have maps to locate lines, sewers and such? Don't tell me they're digging blindly...

Most states have a requirement for a "call before you dig" service. This service will notify the local utility owners in your area to come out at mark their underground utilities in your area and if you follow the procedure it essentially eliminates the legal liability of breaking the utility if you dig and hit it when it wasn't marked.

The problem is that a LOT of utilities in the US do NOT have good "as-builts". See in construction things are often built differently, or located in a differnt location due to a conflict the designer did not have knowledge of. These field changes are supposed to be cataloged and used to create "as-built" drawings that show the location of the utility as it was actually placed.

Now Verzion hires contractors to place lines, the contractor if it's following procedure has the utilties located and begins digging. If the Contractor then rips a gas line in half because the gas company didn't flag it the Contractor usually can't be held responsible. The same goes for other utilties.

Providing Verzion and their contractors are following the accepted construction practices and complying with the law the problem is not of their making or anything they can fix. The problem is the utilitiy owners that don't know where their lines are and instead of the dealing with the real problem the county halted the operation which is treating the symptom and not the problem.

Re:Ground penetrating radar?

[Feanturi]

Don't they have maps to locate lines, sewers and such? Don't tell me they're digging blindly...

To an extent, yes. The article mentions that the mapping of certain neighborhoods, particularly older ones, are prone to have errors. This should not be happening with the frequency that it is, it appears to be a combination of lowest-bidder contracting and poor records maintained by the county. Also, locates for existing underground services are typically performed by the owners of such services, not necessarily the contractors putting in new service. It appears that fault lies in a few areas, and incompetance from the past has finally caught up to all parties at once.

What's the big deal?

[R005G]

I knew lots of nerds who never made full use of their water service. This just gives them an excuse not to take a shower.

Installation

[RandoX]

Am I the only one that took a second to make the leap from software to hardware when I hear the word 'installation'?

Re:Installation

[thebra]

Yes

DigSafe

[syphax]

It's called DigSafe. I just learned this is a New England (sans CT) thing- what the hell do the rest of you do?

These guys have scoped out my lot two times in the past month, due to the start of a new addition, an (unrelated) emergency oil cleanup...

Re:DigSafe

[christopher240240]

In Illinois, we call JULIE before we dig.

Re:DigSafe

[nelsonen]

DigSafe is only as good as the maps it depends on. And the water department in this article did admit "some" of its maps may be inaccurate.

Re:DigSafe

[matth1jd]

We have MISS DIG here in Michigan. They mark utility lines for free as long as you call in advance. I'm assuming they mark all your utility lines: sewer, electrical (if below ground), and telephone. It seems like other state's (regions) would have something similiar to DigSafe or Miss Dig, or is this just a case of bone head sub contractors?

Re:DigSafe

[BrianGa]

It's the law here in NJ

Re:DigSafe

[b0bby]

Around DC, it's Miss Utility.

Re:DigSafe

[macrom]

I was talking to one of the guys that was installing some orange fiber tubing in my backyard about the deployment. He sounded like he had a Boston accent, so maybe that's part of the problem.

Re:DigSafe

[The Cheez-Czar]

Each state contracts a company that any contractor digging is legally required to call before they do any digging. This company then contacts the utilities that say they have underground lines in that area. Thats what Digsafe is, a call center.

Then each utility is repsonsible for marking where there underground facilities are. Some do it themself and some contract through a locating company. Those are the people you see marking.

One of the products my company has is the mapping software used by Digsafe (and Ct and KY).
used by some of the locating companies.

Re:DigSafe

[apraetor]

Don't pick on CT, we've had Call Before You Dig for as long as I can remember.

Re:DigSafe

[timster]

I'm from Texas and we have a similar system.

My employer has a small amount of underground cable (very small) so we had to subscribe to this service. The way it works is they send you a map divided into squares, and you tell them what square(s) you are interested in. Then you get a notification (via fax) every time something is happening in your square.

The notification describes where they will be digging, how deep, etc. Every subscriber is responsible for marking their own lines. There are codes you are supposed to follow for marking (orange for datacom, etc).

Anyway you can see some room for error in this sort of system. There's not actually a centralized map of where all the utilities are, so if somebody doesn't bother to mark something, it won't be marked. Usually they do a good job of making sure everybody gets their notifications, but they could still get lost any number of ways. I suppose public utilities are probably the worst problem, though, since often water and sewer systems were built generations ago.

Re:DigSafe

[iabervon]

My guess is that this is the first time that a company is trying to do a large-scale rollout quickly in FL, so they're hitting all of the problems with the maps. It sounds like they don't have a separate organization like DigSafe to read the maps and mark things, though, so the contractors have to try to do it themselves. Either that, or this is too big a project for the DigSafe-equivalent to handle at the speeds they're working.

Re:DigSafe

[RocketScientist]

Yeah, the cable company called them when they buried cable for my neighbor. Digsafe came out and made the lawn between our houses look like a circus came through with all the color-coded paint sprayed on it. And the cable company promptly came out, cut my telephone and my cable installing his cable anyway.

The "rest of us" call dig safe. Too bad they SUCK.

Re:DigSafe

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

Here in south carolina you have to call each utility seperately.

Re:DigSafe

[cbelt3]

Me too, in NE Ohio. They come out and flag and paint little circles and arrows all over the place. Then a construction company came and dug a driveway (new house) down the road. Bzzt- Cable, Phone, Power, all toasted. Fix, splice, splice, done.
Then the power guys came out and used the horizontal drill gizmo to run their replacement wire. And chewed up the cable and phone.
Then the cable guys came out and ran their replacement wire with the horizontal boring machine.
Then the phone guys came out and ran their horizontal bore, and cut the cable.
Then the cable guys came back and cut the phone.
Then the phone guys came back and reconnected their line.
Lots of amusement for us civilians.

Re:DigSafe

[ArsonSmith]

sure seems like it would be binifitial for all the utility type companies to get together and tunnel one large accessable tunnel for all utilities to run through. Probably cost %10 of what they have now and would help build public infrastructure.

Re:DigSafe

[MrNonchalant]

This is hardly an isolated service. Check out the full list, which unfortunately requires some scrolling from the top.

Re:DigSafe

[lelio98]

Same thing in SoCal, it's called "Dig Alert" though and is free to the person doing the digging. The utilities pay to get notified and then go mark where their lines are. The problem with the system is that the utilities show up late and many do not know where their repective lines are anyways. The problem with Verizon is that they use crappy sub-contractors and they simply do not care what the quality of the work is.

Expected outcome

[GillBates0]

It's well known that fiber "bulks up" waste and moves it through the colon more rapidly, preventing constipation and leading to larger, softer stools.

Large scale deployment of fiber is quite likely to lead to "geysers of raw sewage" if not properly contained.

Re:Expected outcome

[SonicSpike]

Dude... your post was so funny and it caused me to laugh so hard I nearly crapped my pants!

New Ads

[SWroclawski]

Verizon Fiber - Catch The Wave!

Re:New Ads

[bgeiger]

"Can we get off the intestinal flume ride?" -- Otis T. Wren

Stupid News

[OverlordQ]

The only reason this is news is beacuse it involves FTTP. ANd it's not even Verizon's fault, it's the subcontractors.

Re:Stupid News

[Vellmont]

ANd it's not even Verizon's fault, it's the subcontractors.


If you're the one funding all the damage, you're also the one that should take part of the blame. It's Verizon's responsibility to hire competent people to dig. Blaming everything on the sub-contractors is beside the point, since Verizon is the one who hired these clowns.

Re:Stupid News

[Hyecee]

I don't think I agree with that. First of all, how is Verizon to know the sub-contractors are clowns? Why is it that the people hired to do a good, competent job and fail aren't blamed and their employer is?

I had this discussion with my girlfriend just a few days ago (she doesn't agree with me) within the context of a company and a bad employee (let's say, dealing with sexual harassment). Why is it the company's fault that the employee is a sleazebag? It's understandable that they could be blamed if they didn't do anything to reprimand the guy after the first offence, but why are they legally liable for his behavior, even the first time?

The same would go for Verizon. Why should they be liable for a sleazebag company that they probably didn't have any prior experience with? I would bet after all this they'd never use those sub-contractors again.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious about your point of view.

Re:Stupid News

[RPI Geek]

Scenario one: "These clowns" have done digging before or it's their main kind of work. If Verizon hadn't hired "these clowns" then someone else would have, and they'd still be out there messing up. Darwinism will eventually win out and they'll either improve or fold due to the fines or poor reputation, and it likely would have already happened, making this scenario rather unlikely.

Scenario two: "These clowns" have never done digging before but told Verizon they could do it anyway. It certainly IS Verizon's responsibility to look through the contractor's past work to make sure they know what they're doing, and my guess is that they did just this and found no problems because they've only stuck to their area of expertise. Now, the subcontractor should know when to say, "no, I don't think I can handle this" and if they fail to do this, it's their responsibility. They got blinded by the money Verizon was dangling in front of them and started doing a job they were not ready to do, and that's not Verizon's fault. Would it be your fault if you hired someone whose only experience was in web development if they gave you a resume claiming they were a skilled C++ programmer? They'd talk the talk convincingly enough but wouldn't have the skills.

There certainly are cirumstances where it could have been Verizon's fault, but I can't see it happening with such a large & important project.

Re:Stupid News

[Detritus]

Verizon damn well knows who they are hiring as subcontractors.

• Has own truck. Check.
• Has driver's license. Check.
• Willing to work real cheap. Check.
• Has respiration and a pulse. Check.

Re:Stupid News

[Vellmont]

There's enough blame to go around to everyone. In the case of sexual harassment, it would have to be shown the company knew about how the employee was acting, and didn't do anything about it or didn't take sufficient action. That's often the case as employers look the other way at these problems especially if the offending party is high on the food chain.


The same would go for Verizon. Why should they be liable for a sleazebag company that they probably didn't have any prior experience with?

The fact that this is so widespread points to a more general problem with Verizon, and not just a one time mistake. Using your example if suddenly there's a massive class-action lawsuit brought against a company for sexual harassment wouldn't you at least suspect there's something wrong with that company?

Large companies love sub-contracting for the very reason that it gives them plausible deniability when things go wrong. This kind of thing happens all the time, and so the problem continues. The only way it can stop is to hold the contractee to a high standard (perhaps not legally, but in the court of public opinion).

bring it on...

[revery]

has ordered Verizon to stop deployment of FTTP until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside.

For access to reasonably priced, unmetered high-speed internet access, minivan swallowing sinkholes is an evil that I am perfectly willing to face.

--

Was it the sheep climbing onto the altar, or the cattle lowing to be slain,
or the Son of God hanging dead and bloodied on a cross that told me this was a world condemned, but loved and bought with blood.

Re:bring it on...

[macshit]

For access to reasonably priced, unmetered high-speed internet access, minivan swallowing sinkholes is an evil that I am perfectly willing to face.

Hell, I'd pay extra if they could guarantee a minimum number of minivans swallowed...

Re:bring it on...

[grahamsz]

Hell, I'd pay extra if they could guarantee a minimum number of minivans swallowed...

I doubt you'll get a Service Level Agreement with a consumer broadband connection...

The real cause

[Artie_Effim]

The real cause of these events, as yet unobserved, can only be the Devil. You see, about 6 years ago, the Great Destroyer attempted to get DSL installed in his humble abode, told that he was more that 5000m from a C.O. His wrath is just now becomming clear as the Horned Goat himself is now eating up babies.

local geology

[s4m7]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but don't they have these problems with any kind of underground infrastructural deployments in certain areas? I thought this has more to do with geology than with contractor ineptitude.

Ok, hitting sewer lines is bad, but in theory, before any dig, the local utilites (including sanitation) would come and mark the ground so that this wouldn't happen. But sinkholes? Aren't those things opening up all over Florida all the time anyway? I thought it had to do with the geological makeup of the soil in the area and the lack of firm bedrock, more than bad digging. Not that digging wouldn't exacerbate the problem.

Seems to me the county wouldn't have much room to complain if they hadn't accurately marked underground lines before digging begins, as is usually the law (in every place i've lived anyway.) Also seems like if they did do this, then Verizon's contractors got some 'splainin to do.

Re:local geology

[rebelcool]

Sinkholes are commonly caused by water seepage - say if you break a water main and wash away the sand beneath the surface, you can open up a big ass hole in the ground.

Florida is prone to sinkholes, but breaking water pipes all over the place exacerbates the problem.

Theres really no excuse for this kind of shoddy workmanship. Some contractor must've really low-balled the bid and probably hired some illegal day laborers or other unskilled workers to carry it out. (pure speculation of course)

And at least they didnt break gas lines.

Re:local geology

[Anonymous Coward]

They come out and mark, but that doesn't mean the people that are digging are going to be responsible. Last year there was a road crew putting in new sewer lines in the Westport area of St. Louis. Everything was marked out, but rather than digging the last few inches of dirt/rock with a shovel, they used a back hoe for the closeup work. Needless to say, they ruptured the natural gas and/or the water main almost every day.

Re:local geology

[tkw954]

I thought this has more to do with geology than with contractor ineptitude.

Not taking geology into account is ineptitude.

Re:local geology

[calags]

Not too many gas lines around here. Most people use electric stoves, washers and dryers instead.

Re:WTF?

[millahtime]

It's more of the people they have installing the fiber. What kind of workers do they hire? I sure hope the HR department there gets a lot of shit for hiring these morons.

HTTP installation?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else read this headline as "Fl. County Halts HTTP Until Installation Is Safer"?

I mean, viruses and email scams are dangerous and all, but there's really no reason to panic.

-HJ

Re:HTTP installation?!?

[thebra]

No

Re:HTTP installation?!?

[Justin205]

I mean, viruses and email scams are dangerous and all, but there's really no reason to panic.

You've never had experiences with AOLers, have you?

Re:HTTP installation?!?

[bluGill]

No. However I did spend a minute trying to figure out what the extra T in FTP stood for. Then another to figure out something that FT could stand for that related to water or sewage. Eventually I gave up and read the summery.

Re:WTF?

[jav1231]

Exactly! Sinkholes are cause by water table drops or drainage issues under ground. How far are these guys burying this stuff?

What does this have to do with fiber, exactly?

[realdpk]

Perhaps the submitter could come back and let us know what this has to do with fiber? That'd be great. Otherwise, perhaps we could have some editors remove the sensationalization. It's not like this is the first time a utility company has ever busted up another utilities equipment -- search for NANOG and backhoe on google, for example.

Re:What does this have to do with fiber, exactly?

[celerityfm]

You are right, backhoe outages and the like are nothing new.

But can you find me an example in your Google searches of something as interesting as the fiber to the premises technology deployment causing these problems and THEN the problems being SO BAD that they were covered by major media outlets and then the deployment was BLOCKED by a government agency? What about one involving moving minivans being swallowed by sinkholes and video of cars in other such sinkholes?

When I woke up this morning and saw the headline "County to Verizon: Stop deploying Fiber" or whatever I knew it was a Slashdot story, apparently the editors agree with me :)

Hope this has cleared up your question sir.

Re:What does this have to do with fiber, exactly?

[realdpk]

OK, so I guess the news story is more about the overreaction by the county regulators than about the mistakes that occasionally happen when digging underground. That makes more sense.

Re:What does this have to do with fiber, exactly?

[celerityfm]

Right and since /. has been keeping up with FTTP its kinda the latest chapter in the saga/etc.

Really though in alot of ways its the county's fault-- Verizon says the maps of the underground stuff are innaccurate/etc. Then again it should teach Verizon a lesson-- never trust the documentation when it comes to digging! Get that ground penetrating radar or other things that were mentioned in the comments and make your OWN map and THEN SELL IT BACK TO THE COUNTY.

am i rite?

Topic not entirely accurate

[Zanek]

The poster implies Verizon created sinkholes by not filling the holes correctly, but if you read the
article, its really just incompentent employees of Verizon who broke pipes:

Crotty discovered that contractors for Verizon had broken a sewer pipe.
If they had an idea of where the pipes were, maybe they could dig around them and not burst them (Assuming they dont have plans)!

Industry slowdown.

[suso]

Since the logic of this doesn't make much since, it is easy to speculate that large companies are saying this as a tactic to milk people for all they can at a certain speed and all the ones inbetween DSL speed s and fiber to the house. Typical corporate consumer upgrade strategy.

Re:Industry slowdown.

[rfischer]

that large companies are saying this as a tactic to milk people for all they can at a certain speed

Actually, Verizon loses money on each DSL line, but is willing to bear the burden to remain competitive with the cable providers.

Although the cost of the FTTP rollout is massive, the maintenance costs for fiber are significantly less than that of copper... so the telcos do have a strong incentive to roll it out.

That's why...

[Meostro]

... we have something called Miss Utility in the MD/VA/DC/DE area. Each member utility is notified and marks their pipes/wires/whatnot, and then you're not at fault if you bust something that wasn't marked.

Generally, some fella with a metal detector comes strolling through, putting a bunch of fluorescent orange paint stripes on the ground to indicate the general direction/location of underground wires.

We've only ever had cable/power/tv lines marked on our property, and nothing's been damaged during two septic tank repairs, one new well and two additions. I guess PVC would be a little harder, but this is absolutely ridiculous!

I wonder how many Verizon lines have been disrupted as a result of these guys?

Re:That's why...

[valkraider]

Oregon, Washington, Montana:

The Utility Notification Center. Of course, if you are concerned about covering them all - almost all utilities and cable companies and phone companies will happily mark lines for you if you just call them...

Re:That's why...

[cdrudge]

From what I've read, Verizon does do that. The problem is that pipes and wires aren't always where they are suppose to be.

My parent's neighbor put in a fence last summer. Verizon (or who ever the marking company works for) came out and marked where the lines were at. The fencing company drilled the holes for the posts several feet from the line, but ended up cutting the main telephone trunk to the neighborhood, consisting of several hundred pairs, 3 different places.

When Verizon came out, the neighbor asked "Who pays for this?" Verizon jokingly said "We'll send you a bill." After a brief period of rage, the neighbor was assured that it wasn't going to come back to him as it was marked incorrectly.

Verizon may be at fault in some cases, but I'd say the halting was more along the lines so that all sides of the project could get together and figure out a way to quit having so many cut lines.

Re:That's why...

[nolife]

In theory, no lines should be run above your speptic tank. I believe that is in code in my area. My cable service was actually over the lid of my septic tank, luckily the dude digging did not break it. Off topic here but..
I was impressed as hell with the septic guy I had. He was able to locate my septic lid and dig a 3ft diameter hole exactly over the access lid without any error. He looked at my cleanout plug, looked out in the yard and said right HERE, dug down about 2.5 feet and was directly above the lid. There was no obvious marks in the above grass line as the tank had not been pumped in about 7 years. That guy really knows his shit!

Re:That's why...

[will_die]

Did a summer of construction work doing something similar to what Verizon is doing. It was the responsibility of the housing areas owner to mark off the lines, we were responsible if the line was within 1 foot(2 feet up and down) of where it was suppose to be beyond that, or if not marked, the housing areas.
We had all the maps, people come in with detectors,etc and overall they don't work that good. We still broke lots of gas,sewer, phone and tv cable lines.
Most of thoses maps are really bad and just show a line from one place to the other. Most of the sewer and gas were old and not on maps or off by multiple feet.
The other problem was depth of the pipes, gas was suppose to of been buried 9+ feet(most of our stuff was suppose to be at 4 feet) and we would bump into stuff. Since you use a backhoe until you get close to something that is marked(then it is by hand shovel) if it was off by feet it usally got broke. And while detectors can tell you have something in the general area, it cannot tell you the depth.
The other problem was telephone and cable TV. In places that were developed when they were brought in it was usally not bad, since they used this machine with a knife to cut a slit and place it in. However in new places they would just place the cable(especially phone) on the ground and let the grass sod over it up. In thoses places the cable moves around.
Also PVC is usally not the problem(since that is usally newer and may be better marked) it is the old ceramic gas and sewer pipes.

Verizon should have put fiber here.

[LWATCDR]

The city just laid new water lines where I live and is putting them in all over the place. They should have run fiber at the same time :(

Re:Verizon should have put fiber here.

[Flying Purple Wombat]

No, that would make too much sense. Local governments and utilities have to do it like they did in my old town:

Gas company digs up streets to replace lines, as they are required to do on a periodic (decades) basis. Streets are patched, and very bumpy. Town completely repaves the streets. Water company digs up (newly paved!) streets to replace old pipes. Streets are patched, and bumpy again. Town council passes an ordinance that streets cannot be dug up for any reason within 5 years of being repaved. Town coucil passes another ordinance mandating and funding "revitilization" of the old business district. The project requires water/sewer/gas infrastructure upgrades, but the streets have just been repaved...DOH!

First computers. Next up, humans!

[TimmyDee]

As if the internet infecting your computer wasn't enough, Verizon is working on a way to infect you.

Used to work for Verizon...

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work as a contractor for Verizon (VZ) in the Tampa area for a short time. Do note that to VZ, a Pentium II with 64 MB of ram is considered 'top of the line' to them, so go knows what kind of equipment they are using in the field for keeping track of what fiber is going where.

And now they are doing fiber to the home? Hell, the DSL was slow to begin with when they started with homes and businesses. Can't wait to see what the 'promise' and what they actually deliver. Forget about SLA's... they never heard of them.

A Better Network

[maokh]

Oh well, downloading porn at 100Mbps is worth a few thousand gallons of sewage in my yard. Hopefully I can also total one of my cars in a sinkhole, because im just going to get nailed on trade-in anyway.

Re:WTF?

[SEWilco]

What's fiber got to do with sinkholes and sewage?

More fiber causes more sewage?
More fiber delivers more spam?
More fiber sucks away more time?

Actually, the fiber is being installed underground. When the drilling punctures a water or sewer line, the leaking liquid can cause problems several ways. A puddle of sewage on the surface has several undesirable characteristics. Water or sewage leaking through earth can dissolve various materials and carry them away, creating a space. If this space is on the surface and small, it is a pothole. If this space is under the surface, when the unsupported earth above collapses that is called a sinkhole.

Sinkholes come in various sizes, and since the surface layer and "rock" supporting much of Florida can be dissolved fairly easily, large sinkholes can be created all too easily. A small sinkhole which collapses under a car can cause several dramatic situations.

Wisdom sorely lacking

[Helpadingoatemybaby]

Why on Earth are they digging trenches that might open sewer lines, might hit power lines, might hit water lines when the wise man would get a contract with the city and run the fiber through the water line itself.

It would be far faster, it would be far cheaper than digging trenches, and it would be fair easier to pop a fitting inside the house to extract the fiber from the incoming pipe than digging an entire trench!

They have knowledge but they don't have wisdom.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[manifest37]

Did you even think about what you said?? Put cables in the water pipes. OK! What happens when you need to fix a peice of cable? Oh yea, turn off the water to that pipe. Great idea. Idiot.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[Anonymous Coward]

run the fiber through the water line itself.

While it's possible, it is a huge hassle. Fiber (and splitters, etc) rated for underwater use is much more expensive. And will you guarantee that nothing bad will leach out of the fiber into the drinking water for the house?

It would be far faster, it would be far cheaper than digging trenches,

I doubt it, but it's possible.

it would be far easier to pop a fitting inside the house to extract the fiber from the incoming pipe than digging an entire trench!

So, what about all the valves? Going to run your fiber through that? Or create a new leakage opportunity every time you take the fiber in & out of the pipe ? And the bend radius of water pipes can be very short, much less than fiber.

They have knowledge but they don't have wisdom.

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[linuxbert]

they likely arnt digging tranches, they are drilling holes.. there is equipment that will drill a horizontal hole in the ground, and pull a pvc pipe along behind the dril head. the only holes you have to dig, are once every block or so to start the machine, and connect the pipe segments.
see http://wgrue.tracto-technik.de/uuid/1129A3A11BD111 D7B8C40030050CE994/
for more info

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[pclminion]

I think you're on the right track, but actually putting fiber IN the pipes is probably a bad idea for reasons people have already mentioned.

This is due to a lack of wisdom, yes, but the mistake was made decades ago. In hindsight it's obvious, but we can't really blame people 50, 60, 70 years ago for not seeing it: the correct solution would be to build empty conduits with much more space than currently required, and run the water pipes and other stuff through that. Just like we have cable conduit in walls.

I guess it just didn't occur to the people designing the sewer and water systems that people might want to put OTHER stuff in the ground fanning out across the city, not just water pipes. For example, cable TV, telephone, electricity, fiber optics, whatever.

Also, the topology of water systems has to be specially designed because the whole system is based on gravity. There are certain configurations that you simply can't have in a water system. So there might be some disadvantages to forcing all your different kinds of networks to go through the same conduit.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[RocketScientist]

Yeah. And then there's a water leak down the street and the water company comes by and closes the valve under the manhole out front. Oops. Cut the fiber.

Great plan there.

I've got an idea, how about if the utilities that bury this stuff actually, you know, have accurate maps on where they bury it, instead of the way it's been happening: The "Making Shit Up" School of Cartography.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[Kaboom13]

Water pipes make sharp 90 degree turns that fiber could not follow. Not to mention the insane difficulty of cutting into pressurized pipes to extract the cable, of the difficulty of switching stations, etc. Larger water pipes are made of thick concrete or plastic, and are very high pressure. Furthermore every time the fiber went in or came out you risk contaminating the water. You still have to dig up the water line, and heres a hint, if the water line was where they though it was, they wouldn't be hitting them now.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[isj]

And will you guarantee that nothing bad will leach out of the fiber into the drinking water for the house?

I cannot find the article on ./ but I seem to recall that a few companies are running fiber in the sewage system - probably for the same reason as you mention.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[Helpadingoatemybaby]

Did you even think about what you said?? Put cables in the water pipes. OK! What happens when you need to fix a peice of cable? Oh yea, turn off the water to that pipe. Great idea. Idiot.

You're talking the distance from the manhole to the basement, which is between valves anyway . This would prevent the need to trench for most cases. If you need to repair the cable, you can either refeed it (most likely) or then trench.

I find it funny that people on this thread are so averse to feeding it through water pipes because (gasp) they may need to trench. In other words, still avoiding what they're doing for each house right now. (!)

I especially enjoyed the comment about plastic leeching into water pipes and water resistant fiber being expensive. First off, water pipes are made of plastic right now -- second off, if you're buying special fiber I'm sure that it's a lot cheaper than trenching!

But the most priceless comment is that that underwater splitters are expensive. To avoid trenching you only need to go from the manhole to the house -- and if you're needing splitters in that thirty feet, maybe you need to reexamine the network structure.

So, back to your pro-trench flaming!

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[manifest37]

You're talking the distance from the manhole to the basement, which is between valves anyway . This would prevent the need to trench for most cases. If you need to repair the cable, you can either refeed it (most likely) or then trench.
No. I am talking about feeding the cable through water mains. Which is what they would have to do. And I'm sure nobody likes the idea of redoing expensive cable that has to be able to withstand being in water it's entire life. Your idea is still dumb.

Re:Wisdom sorely lacking

[XPisthenewNT]

I think new fiber can bend almost as much as a copper wire.

Just Wait...

[mogrify]

Just wait until the Verizon sinkholes start swallowing cable TV vans on their way to service appointments. Or maybe that's why they can't hit an 8 hour time frame for showing up at my house?

Can we...

[jd]

...have Verizon install FTTP to Congress, the White House, ... ? :)

Seriously, this reminds me of a news story in recent weeks where a company installing cable managed to break open a gas line. Incinerated the workforce and a passerby.

What is it with negligence and installation, these days? There's no shortage of people you can call to check if there's something nearby you need to avoid. If you prefer to do the job yourself, you can always hire a ground-penetrating radar.

(Given that it's cheaper to rent one of those toys than to replace a house or pay families compensation for deaths through negligence, it wouldn't be such a bad idea for companies to use these as standard.)

Given how much cost-cutting and corner-cutting that companies almost have to do, to stay competitive and profitable, I expect this problem to get worse, as the information demands make upgrading copper to fibre increasingly necessary.

Re:Can we...

[FiloEleven]

> [Can we] have Verizon install FTTP to Congress, the White House, ... ? :)

With the amount of raw sewage coming out of there already, anything new would hardly be noticeable...

What kind of speeds are we talking about?

[heldlikesound]

Because if I can crawl out of a sewage filed sinkhole and download new Slackware ISO's in under a minute, you may have yourself a deal.

Re:What kind of speeds are we talking about?

[kwatz]

http://www.linuxiso.org/distro.php?distro=17
http://www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/channels/fios /root/package.asp
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%28651+MB +%2B+664+MB%29+%2F+%2830+Mbps%29

Sorry.

Re:What kind of speeds are we talking about?

[Ironsides]

15mbps downstream, 2mpbs upstream

Re:What kind of speeds are we talking about?

[srw]

I'm really impressed! Google knows the difference between "B" and "b". Now if they would just teach it about "hogshead" and allow prefixes (milli, micro, nano) on "fortnight", "rod", etc, my life will be fulfilled.

Right now, if I want to know what one millirod/nanofortnight is in miles per hour I have to ask like this:
one (rod/1000) per ( fortnight /1000000000) in miles per hour

-srw

Good riddance

[DaFallus]

until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside.

Good, killing two birds with one stone. I thank Verizon for helping remove more soccer-mom-driven minivans from the road. And as for the children... maybe now I can go seen a R rated movie without having some kid crying up and down the isles.

I Don't See The problem

[vjmurphy]

"they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside."

I think I'd pay extra to have this happen in my neighborhood. Where do I sign up?

The best part of the article ...

[OWJones]

County workers broke the water line at Lakeview and North Dale Mabry while trying to repair a break in a sewer line caused by Verizon contractors on Friday. That break left sewage spewing beneath the road, opening a hole that nearly swallowed a car.

Whoops. :) Way to go there, guys.

-jdm

My question is...

[schon]

sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside

How exactly does one engineer a sinkhole that knows whether or not there are children inside a minivan?

Ye gads - intelligent sinkholes!

Cue the "new sinkhole overlords" jokes. :o)

Re:My question is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue the "new sinkhole overlords" jokes. :o)

I, for one, welc........what the....aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! *thud*

Re:My question is...

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

In Soviet Russia, the government opens intelligent sinkholes under YOU!

Re:My question is...

[_iCeb0x_ (1337 and k]

How exactly does one engineer a sinkhole that knows whether or not there are children inside a minivan?

Oh! That's a Verizon patented new technology. It uses a combination of questionably bad contractors and infrared sensors. The system is sewage-powered and will try to capture minivans (not full-sized vans). It will also generate a sewage geyser is a child is in the nearby area or if the sewage doesn't meet the quality level for the system powering needs.

It's fantastic!

Hey! Mod this a troll! Please! Maybe "off-topic"... I didn't mean to be funny, not even interesting! I swear!

_iCeb0x_

Re:My question is...

[jthayden]

Actually I already held the patent on this technology. Granted I didn't invent it, I simply purchased the patent, but I intend to enforce it to the fullest extent possible.

Re:My question is...

[ChrisMaple]

How about a Beowulf cluster of intelligent sinkholes?

Re:WTF?

[DigitalRaptor]

Drainage issues such as breaking a water pipe that quickly washes away the dirt under the asphault resulting in the collapse of the asphault?

Charter was just brought to my rural neighborhood and when they ran it past my house they installed a junction box, backfilled, then drove a 1/2 inch copper grounding line right through the water main, skewering it and flooding 3 different yards and disrupting water service to about 400 houses.

201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[HDlife]

The problem is that there are 2,000 workers busting pipes that the county has to fix. Even if the county can bill Verizon later, the county certainly doesn't have the staff to play cleanup to Verizon's contractor.

This is probably a great deal for the diggers; the cost of paying the county to fix the breaks is probably less than preventing them. Therfore, the only stick that the county has is to say STOP! No more digging until you clean up your act!

Re:WTF?

[kovarg]

I'm local to Hillsborough and all day we've been hearing about this stoppage. Sinkholes are a buzz word because they are a (forgive the pun) a money pit for insurance companies. Potholes, ditches and everything else where the ground is unlevel can be dubbed as sinkholes. That is not to say we don't have sinkholes, but nowhere near as many as are reported. It is a large enough problem that some zip codes are blocked out of renters insurance due to sinkhole problems, but Verizon hasn't been running around and draining pockets of the water table. The real headline should be: Verizon has morons digging trenches.

Re:WTF?

[shawn(at)fsu]

I love when people ask questions that make it blindingly obvious they didn't' RTFA.
If you want to know stop being lazy and RTFA.

And I always wondered how my teacher could tell I didn't read the assignment...

Damn contractors...

[scribblej]

Call JULIE before you dig!

DigSafe isn't perfect

[crow]

Despite DigSafe, there was a major gas leak this summer during road construction near my work (I think it was related to installing a traffic light). I belive that the conclusion was that the gas main wasn't exactly where the records showed it. I've heard of other similar problems.

And when you're dealing with infrastructure that may a hundred years old, there simply aren't accurate records indicating where the pipes are.

6:00 news story

[IamGarageGuy 2]

C'mon now, sh*t happens. If you are going to dig up the road, things are going to break fromthe old infrastructure. It's a good story for the 6:00 news, but things like this are going to happen anyway. It's only because the name Verizon is involved and they get footage of a car in a hole, that this is newsworthy.

Re:WTF?

[AyeRoxor!]

Exactly! Sinkholes are cause by water table drops or drainage issues under ground. How far are these guys burying this stuff?

Seeing as most of florida is mere feet above sea level, in many places you don't have to dig too deeply. Many places can't get buried gas pipelines because of the buoyancy of the gas in the pipes. Also explains the lack of basements. If you dig a hole, water will take that as an invitation.

only in fla

[dextr0us]

Only in florida would people not study the problem with sinkholes in the first place. As if the billboards everywhere saying "lost your home in a sinkhole?" didn't let verizon know that they should do better groundwork checking.

At least it was in hillsborough county, and not polk county. In polk, sinkholes are such a problem a city called winterhaven claims "land of 1000 lakes." You know where those lakes came from? You guessed it, Sinkholes. Everywhere.

Re:WTF?

[shawn(at)fsu]

Fl, where I am from has a water table that is really close to the ground, we got sink holes all the time.
But that is unrelated to TFA, they say that they hit water mains.

In either case you don't have to dig to far to hit water.

Sink holes

[Anonymous Coward]

Any time you dig, you have a chance of creating a sink hole. Basically, you have to be able to put the dirt back into the hole as dense as it was when it came out. If you fill in the hole and have dirt left over, then you will probably get a sink hole.

Even taking the above into account, the trench you need to bury a cable is only an inch wide. That shouldn't create much of a sink hole. No, the really good sink holes happen when you break a water or sewer main and the water washes a bunch of dirt away and then the whole thing collapses when you drive over it.

I agree with most of the other posters; this sure wouldn't happen where I live. Are these guys totally incompetent or is there something going on that we don't know about. Around here, you call the phone company and the water company and the gas company and they mark all their stuff for you at no charge to you.

Sounds like the work of lawyers and lobyists

[yorkpaddy]

I have worked utility construction, and yes that stuff does happen from time to time. It happens when old lines are maintained too. Any underground work poses those risks. There are standards and procedures for working underground which are generally adhered too. One of the biggest problems is poor marking of old lines (in the ground and on surveys).

This sounds to me like a complaint of a competitor desperately trying to stop progress.

Re:Sounds like the work of lawyers and lobyists

[yorkpaddy]

oh, one more thing. When I was working utility construction, we had to dig by hand whenever we thought we were within two feet of a burried pipeline. I worked on one job with a 24 inch Gas transmission main (for a lot of Northern VA) and a 40 year old electrical main (with Really thin insulation). We would have to dig by hand to locate those lines. This was a miserable job, marine clay, standing water all over the place. Often we had no idea where the lines were (despite markings on the roadway) we would dig 5 feet down, and sometimes 7 - 10 feet perpendicularly to the direction of the line. This was a new construction 5 acre lot in a subdivision. To top it all off, once we marked the line with 4x4's, the loader operator would accidently break, cover, or bend the 4x4, so we'd have to go back and dig it up again to find it.

Re:Sounds like the work of lawyers and lobyists

[hchaos]

I have worked utility construction, and yes that stuff does happen from time to time...This sounds to me like a complaint of a competitor desperately trying to stop progress.

From the article:

Since August, nearly 200 water, sewer and reclaimed water lines have been broken across the county. Those breaks have affected nearly 3,000 customers, leaving some with sewage and water spewing through their front yards, others with ripped-up driveways and streets, and some dealing with a boil-water notice as a health precaution.

This is more than a "from time to time" problem. That's an average of roughly 2 line breaks a day, with a total repair cost so far of over $100,000 (from the article).

Also from the article:

``They were right to do it, though, because they're concerned about all that's happened and about the inconvenience to their customers, and we are, too,'' [Spokesman for Verizon Bob] Elek said. ``We wish all the problems that have happened wouldn't have happened.''

Not exactly the wording I would expect from Verizon if a competitor was desperately trying to stop progress. In short, RTFA!

Re:Sounds like the work of lawyers and lobyists

[yorkpaddy]

good point, I didn't read the article. Still my comments on my expreience are valid. Sometimes we would lay caution tape a foot above the pipe, sometimes not. I don't know why we didn't do it everytime, but I wasn't in charge. We were a lot more careful around the electric and gas main lines then we were around existing sewer, water, and stormdrain. The sewer, water, and stormdrain lines weren't a big deal since we worked on them and could fix a problem if we caused it. Hitting an electrical or gas main is dangerous. One day we were laying new sewer out of an existing manhole, parallel to an existing water line. We disrupted the waterline causing it to break. This let out an enormous qauntity of water before we were able to shut it off, all into the trench. The trench was 6 feet wide, 15 or so feet deep and about 30 feet long. The trench quckly filled up and eventually drained out the sewer line we had just laid. The next day I had to go to the downstream sewer manholes and shovel sediment into buckets that were hauled up by someone topside.

Re:Sounds like the work of lawyers and lobyists

[the_rev_matt]

"This sounds to me like a complaint of a competitor desperately trying to stop progress."

Ummm, there have been over *200 incidents* in the past few months. During the dotcom days in Colorado when Qworst had their Big Yellow Cablefinders out for twelve hour days even on weekends the whole region didn't see that many breakages in the four years I was there. On a side note, when it did happen it was considered pretty entertaining that they were generally tearing through their own cables.

From the article (I know, I did RTFA and should be chastised for doing so) it sounds like the massive volumes of complaints to the city had a little more to do with this than any of Verizons' competitors.

Re:Call Miss Utility

[nolife]

I've used that service before when i was planning a new deck. They mark all the underground lines with paint lines and arrows (different colors for different services). If you strike a line outside of a defined distance they mark, it is their responsibility to fix it. They provide this as a free service to residential customers, all it takes is one phone call and all of your underground utilities are marked from pole to house.

Things going good here...

[sH4RD]

They have been rolling out FTTP here in Fairfax, Virginia and I have heard no complaints. Someone I know just got it installed (which also involved digging up a trench to put the line to his house), and he said they did a great job covering their tracks. Guess it's just the luck of location. Then again, I still can't get it...

SSH?

[Lord_Dweomer]

Oh god, here come the SSH Tunneling jokes.

Gotta say though, this gives a whole new meaning to "dropped connection" *groan*.

They should have chosen somewhere else

[LordByronStyrofoam]

... to do their first deployment.

Re:They should have chosen somewhere else

[macdaddy]

It certainly would have been better for PR. It would have made a more impressive and less expensive proof-of-concept to the powers that be. They should have gone to the Midwest for their trial. Ohio or Iowa perhaps. Oklahoma or the Kansas City area would have worked well too.

UTOPIA and iProvo

[sadler121]

I think every time a FTTP article I must mention this, but this is one plus to living in Utah. the fiber based initiative is community owned and NOT owned by the Telcoms and just think, if there is enough of a geek swell to Utah, we could oust Orrin Hatch! :-) OK, that was delusional thinking, but, but, it might work, plus we'll have FTTH, not just FTTC!! :-) (which won't do much good because of the draconian community indecency policies, which effectively outlaws not only porn but anything >= R rated movies...On second thought, perhaps we can live with the telcoms, at least we can still get our porn from them ;-)

Re:UTOPIA and iProvo

[Mignon]

if there is enough of a geek swell ... we can get our porn

Which of course encourages a different kind of geek swelling.

creating sinkholes...

[aaandre]

"...creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside..."
So does this mean that the holes somehow exercise a choice and only open if a minivan with children inside goes above them?
Or does it mean that someone chooses to use an anecdotal occurance to sensationalize a dull story?

Maybe someone who got a "writing" job by mistake.
</sarcasm>

Reading such lame and manipulated scoops pisses me off.

Re:creating sinkholes...

[pclminion]

I've got a question I've been meaning to ask people who get indignant like yourself...

If you are capable of seeing the obvious bias in the reporting, what's the problem? Bias only matters when you don't know it's there.

Is it out of compassion for the rest of humanity?

Re:creating sinkholes...

[aaandre]

I am expressing my frustration, not trying to change things. Its a frustration with the tolerance to distortion for the sake of grabbing audience's attention. From my perspective it's beyond bias, just bad, cheap writing. So no compassion for the rest of humanity, just pissed off, thank you.
As for the rest of the people "who get indignant" - I can't answer for this stereotype based on your judgement.

Cheers
-- Andre

Re:creating sinkholes...

[pclminion]

As for the rest of the people "who get indignant" - I can't answer for this stereotype based on your judgement.

Sorry, I was just being crabby -- didn't mean to apply a stereotype.

New Verizon business plan...

[JamesP]

1 - Dig Hole
2 - Get covered in sewage
3 - Minivan full of children sinks in sewage
4 - ???
5 - Profit!

It's all in the wording

[dr_dank]

Well, Hillsborough County, host to one of the first FTTP trial sites, has ordered Verizon to stop deployment of FTTP until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside

No wonder. Of course they'll do that if children are mentioned.

Now if the minivan had, say Darl McBride/CarrotTop/Gilbert Gottfried/etc, they'd have the whole state fibered already.

Worries don't end with install.

[PMuse]

Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises (FTTP, see previous) in YOUR home may involve geysers of raw sewage streaming into your PC.

I work for a Telco

[PhraudulentOne]

I work for a telco and we plough cable every day. We do this in populated neighborhoods and new lots. It is extremely rare that we cut a cable (in fact I do not know of one in over a year), but NEVER a pipe. This work is not really Verizon's fault as it seems they are hiring subcontractors to do the work. This is a simple case of incompetence where the subcontractors do not call for a LOCATE (or they get a locate done so far in advance that it washes away or something).
Also, I'm sure you all realize that this has nothing to do with fiber to the home, it has to do with people not being able to dig properly.. no matter what they are laying in the ground.

Re:WTF?

[Junior J. Junior III]

You'd think TFSummary would at least cover the basic points of TFA.

Re:Call Miss Utility

[daveo0331]

Florida has a version of this. Someone should send the link to these lowest-bid contractors.

http://www.callsunshine.com/corp/index.html

children and fiber

[Tumbleweed]

Okay, so some kids may be lost, but this is fiber to the home we're talking about here! Some sacrifices must be made.

Besides, it's not like they're taxpayers or anything. Plus, what're they gonna DO, CRY about it? Puh-lease. Stupid cry-babies.

Re:Call Miss Utility

[PhraudulentOne]

I totally thought this was some "American" thing where they have a hot girl in some sort of sash deemed "Miss Utility" for a year (you know, county fair stuff). I went to the site and checked the links, but all I found was info for a locate. Damn you for perking my umm.. interest.

Use the tried and tru method for locating water

[CokoBWare]

Get two bent rods, a psycic, and start dowsing... crap it would probably work better than using old shitty maps.

Does it make me a bad person...

[geekguy]

To laugh at the thought of a Minivan of small childred being swalowed by sinkholes?
And does it make me a worse person to wish it would take socer moms with it if it would mean faster internet access?

Re:WTF?

[jprior2001]

Contractors in FL are notoriously slow. Actually I am currently writing this from Hillsborough County, FL (Tampa). Just an example, they have been working on I-4 for 12 yaers and they are still not done (I-4 connects Tampa and Orlando, about 80 mils of highway).

This is just the weapon we need

[paranode]

To rule the world as geeks and defeat the mad soccer mom army!

figures

[MERVERNATOR]

typical verizon.... creating bills for services no one ever asked for. can you pay me now?.... good.

WTF? You RTFA?!!

[Thud457]

So it's not a matter of their installers being idiots and not calling tha 800 number before digging?

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[Winkhorst]

Assuming you're not just being ironic (sorry, I don't speak Initialese), NO, they don't have to call the 800 number. They have maps. You know, those paper thingies with lines and symbols on them that let you figure out where the subway stops are and that kind of stuff? But the maps are wrong. This is because they are old, and apparently nobody bothered to update them as things were changed over the years. And, as someone else has pointed out, the water table in Florida is somewhere around your knees, so you have to bury everything at the same level. And it's not a good idea to install stuff above ground because of the weather--lots of cyclonic wind conditions and the like. So you either give the place back to the Seminole Indians, who had enough sense not to invent electricity, or you dig and hope you don't hit something.

Now the county keeps talking about using satellites and GPS, which gives you some insight into the state of THEIR neural network, so I have to conclude that the fault lies mainly with those same officials for not keeping the maps current.

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[Pakaran2]

That too, apparently. It sounds like Verizon wants to get this test site up ASAP by focusing a lot of money and contractors on this one county.

I get the impression keeping roads from collapsing is a secondary priority.

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[TFGeditor]

"It sounds like Verizon wants to get this test site up ASAP by focusing a lot of money and contractors on this one county."

Florida = Spam Capitol of the U.S. if not the world

Fiber = Uber bandwidth

You think?

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[Uhlek]

GPS is becoming more and more common in locating underground utilities. Basically, surveyor-quality GPS readings (using a surveyor GPS rig which not only uses satellite readings, but also local survey points) are taken of underground utilities every X number of feet. This, along with manual depth measurements, can create an accurate 3D utility map.

It's pretty interesting. Last major construction gig (major fiber plant/network rework) I was on we had a crew like this. They basically hung back waiting for the construction crews to either lay cable or conduit, and they'd take measurements before they buried it.

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[Dun Malg]

So it's not a matter of their installers being idiots and not calling tha 800 number before digging?

The installers already have the map that the people on the other end of that 800 number are using. Problems occur when that map is in error, or when the map reader is a fool. Both things happen with alarming frequency.

Re:WTF? You RTFA?!!

[lelio98]

Actually they do have to call the 800 number prior to digging. In SoCal, it must be called in a minimum of 72 hours prior to digging (not including weekends). Additionally, if the markings are not clear, have washed away, are obviously incorrect, or seem odd in any way at all the digging party must call the 800 number again for re-marking. Then, if everything is marked properly you may begin to dig, but not with a backhoe. You must first manually (with a shovel) locate all marked utilities in the work area. Once they have all been marked, you may go in with a backhoe and dig (if there is room of course).

The problem here is not with maps, or a lack of technical expertise on the county's part. The problem is with the crappy sub-contractors VZ used. The damaged utilities should (but will not due to legal expense) seek recourse from Verizon for the damages their subs have caused in the area.

Re:Karma

[Megaweapon]

So, anybody know if the county voted Republican or Democrat?

Hmmmm, geysers of raw sewage... Nope, still sounds like either party.

Re:Illegal Labor?

[pclminion]

In other words, you're assuming that if a guy has dark skin, he must be here illegally?

Not surprising, and probably localized

[rkischuk]

...until they can figure out how to stop creating sinkholes that open up under minivans with children inside. No word on whether SBC is having similar problems with their fiber roll-out.

Probably not - most of Florida is barely above sea level, so there's just not as much room to bury things that you don't also want below the water table. It's no surprise they're accidentally chewing up other utilities.

Combine that with the fact that much of Florida is seated on limestone, which is easily eaten away resulting in sinkholes, and I think this is probably a fairly localized problem, and has next to nothing to do with FTTP.

pole vs. underground cost depends on the area

[davidwr]

As you point out, repairing a fiber is expensive.

However, some soils just aren't made for buried cable. Either they shift too much, which can cause damage, they are too hard to dig cheaply, or there are legal or other costs that make poles cheaper.

I guess they THOUGHT in Hillsboro county, Florida, digging was cheaper. Maybe it's time to rethink fiber on poles.

If it weren't for pesky things like rain, birds, and the need for constantly realigning transmitters and receivers, laser-through-the-air would be the way to go for some applications. Of course, line-of-sight and reduced bandwidth compared to fiber is also an issue.

Central Services....

[eobanb]

....don't take too kindly to SABOTAGE!! HEHEHEHEH!

Is it Really Verizon's Fault?

[SharkPork]

Is it Verizon directly digging and breaking things, Or is it their lowest bidder contractor?

It sounds to me like whoever they have doing the work needs to go back to contractor school.

If it were me, I'd say who cares!!! all that stuff is outside, but I've got fiber to my house, I'm never coming out again!

Re:Is it Really Verizon's Fault?

[BobaFett]

Or is it the poor record-keeping? When you dig, you're supposed to call and have the location of utilities marked. They get marked according to what's in the city of county records. But what you find under ground does not always match:

my neighbor had a gas pipe marked going along the edge of his lawn then doing a 90-degrees turn and going along the other edge. But the gas company saved few feet of pipe and laid it straight along the diagonal, under the lawn.

power line is marked right next to my foundation every time I call for markings. It's about 2 feet away from the foundation, actually.

my other neighbor discovered a buried cable conduit under his lawn, with active cable. Nobody knows what the heck it's doing there, no cable is marked anywhere near.

Re:Is it Really Verizon's Fault?

[erlenic]

my other neighbor discovered a buried cable conduit under his lawn, with active cable. Nobody knows what the heck it's doing there, no cable is marked anywhere near.

<sarcasm>Break it. You'll either find out what it is, or find out it's not used and can be ripped out.</sarcasm>

No problems here in Washington state!

[sleighb0y]

Here on the Olympic Peninsula, I have 100Mbps FTTP provided by Clallam County PUD and Noanet. The only sewage problems I have are those of spam coming into my mail server.

And BTW, the fiber is strung up on the power poles here.

They don't have time for wisdom.

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Thats an intersting idea, but that is so untested and completely different than standard operating procedure that they will screw up just as much trying to make it work. You'll end up spending more trying to make something new and unproven work, then just plowing ahead. Something like that would have to be tested in a more controlled enviorment for a couple of years before being unleashed upon the populace. Just so they work out all of the kinks and really refine the procedures down.

To whomever modded the parent as flamebait...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong.

Telecom companies typically do not have the manpower or equipment to dig, because they don't do it full time. Why buy all that expensive equipment and have all those extra employees sitting around when there's nothing to do. And no, maintenance does not justify it: the lines last plenty long enough without maintenance. This means that they hire someone to put the wire in... you know what they're called? subcontractors!

Now since it's not Verizon who's doing the digging but the subcontractors, guess whose responsibility it is to make sure the area is OK to dig in: the people who are doing the actual digging or the people who sit in an office miles away and write the checks to the workers?

Why would a news item involving something like a low-tech subcontractor appear on slashdot? Because someone wanted the Karma for posting a story, and the editors didn't check it out closely. The editor saw "FTTP" & "Verizon" and obviously doesn't know much about the whole process of digging, so it made front page.

Mod appropriately next time. The parent wasn't 'flamebait' because they recognized where the blame should lie, and simply posted about it. At the worst, it should be 'troll' because it's worded in a way that sounds angry and could incite even more angry responses, and at the best it should be 'informative' because it gives a breath of truth to a sketchy article someone submitted for the purpose of getting their name on the front page.

BPL analog

[mindbooger]

Well, those old farts and their antiquated hobbies (sheesh, does anyone these days still _use_ sewers?!) had just better learn to roll with the punches. I mean, c'mon -- I can get fast broadband access if this goes ahead, so I don't care about ruptured sewer lines or sinkholes or anything like that. Just pee in your Zip-drive. And you can telecommute and order out, so why worry about sinkholes under the roads? This is the 21st century, get out of my way! I want I want I want!

*cough* Or something like that.

subcontractors using cheap labor

[nomadicGeek]

This happened with our old cable company here in Florida as well. Migrant laborers with shovels come in and dig the crap out of your front yard. It pisses me off two. You come home from work and find a huge hole with dirt and crap everywhere and then it takes you months to put evertyhing back together when they finish.

The new owner of the cable company actually uses newer equipment to push cables between smaller holes. It doesn't make as big of a mess although the equipment is expensive and looks like it probably takes a lot to maintain.

It sounds like they need to maybe spend a little more on the installation and make it bearable for the homeowners. I know that it used to piss me off really bad to come home and find a huge hole in my front yard. I'd love to have fiber to my house but I know that I wouldn't put up with the mess shown in the pictures. It isn't necessary.

Karma, indeed...

[javaxman]

So, anybody know if the county voted Republican or Democrat?

Sure enough, they went Bush/Chenney.

Re:First computers. Next up, humans!

[DarkHelmet]

But only if you live in soviet russia :P

Don't bother.

[mcmonkey]

Save yourself the click; Miss Utility isn't hot, and there aren't even any bikini shots.

=(

Re:Don't bother.

[Meostro]

You were expecting maybe Heidi? (probably NSFW)

..imagines a 4x4 Pickup, broken, bent, and covered

[seibed]

wow. thats a lot of dirt. ... oh you meant a 4x4 piece of wood? ok then.

Sinkholes

[mejesster]

Me, I'll take the sinkholes, so long as I get my fiber!

Heh..

[Doctor_D]

Some of the contractors in FL must be the same ones that keep severing lines in Ohio...remember when someone cut a few fibre lines and hosed the net? (Page down to "oops")

FTTP really means...

[vudufixit]

Feces to the Premises

Sewage

[Peale]

Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises (FTTP, see previous) in YOUR neighborhood may involve geysers of raw sewage spewing onto your front yard or sinkholes opening and swallowing moving vehicles.


So what! I rent. Let him deal with it. What do I pay him for?

Oh, Mr Cassidy! Didn't see you there, sir! Eviction? Ah, man...

Hah hah.

[Rod Beauvex]

Everyone's overlooking a major point here. Think about it. It's 2004. Practical fiber optic technology has been has been around since the 70's, or so says the Wikipedia. Why weren't these things already in the ground 15 years ago?

WHY IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL ARE WE STILL USING COPPER!?

-Rod Beauvex

Old wisdom made new

[Bastian]

If you're ever going out into the wilderness, bring a PVC pipe with you. If you get lost, you can bury it in the ground, and a Verizon crew will be along shortly to break it.

NY has it

[acomj]

In NY called a code [somenumber] Utillities have 48 hours to mark their lines when you call. Some do it off plans. The gas line folks has a detector to mark it exactl location (within a foot).

Re:WTF?

[Bombcar]

Sinkholes can be caused by morons breaking a pipe while installing fiber.

See Underground Focus - this is hard

[Animats]

Underground Focus is devoted to this problem.

Walnut Creek, CA, just had a digging disaster when a crew excavating for a water main hit an aviation fuel pipeline. Five people dead. 170 homes and two schools evacuated, Massive firefighting effort. Secondary flareups occured for two days. The drawing for the fuel pipeline apparently didn't show where the pipeline changed direction.

Verizon owned my yard

[tealtalon]

The workers were about shoulder deep in my front yard burying some sort of large junction box every other yard or so. The workers sliced through my Brighthouse Cable and cut TV and Internet off in my house for a day. Then Brighthouse had some sweaty mullet come fix the cable. He just ran the cable across my yard. Then two days later sweaty mullet #2 came back and buried the new Brighthouse cable in my yard. My wife has pics somewhere of the trashed cable. Verizon did put a sign up in the front of the neighborhood with the number to call with complaints. Clearly expecting it. They laid fresh sod for anyone who complained about the easement being destroyed. I don't care. I just want my damn FIOS so I can call Brighthouse and tell them off. Supposedly in ~2005 they will be doing television over the same lines.

Re:WTF?

[pragma_x]

Well anyone familiar with bran muffins knows about how fiber causes sewage.

Now optical fiber on the other hand...

Basically the cable is being put underground, so the utility crews have to dig through the street to install. Obviously, they're not very good at it and aren't paying attention to what was put under the street and damaging sewer and water pipes as they go.

Once a leak develops, it can erode the soil out from under the road, leaving a thin crust of asphalt over the resulting hole. Since not all leaks result in a disruption of service, I'd wager that they'll have to wait for people to 'find' these sinkholes first before going about patching the pipes.

Digging in Florida

[Kaboom13]

I'm a Florida resident, I can tell you digging in Florida never goes smoothly. You have to realize, the water table can be as close as a few feet under the ground. This means anything underground has to be shoved into those few feet, dangerously close to the surface.
ANother problem is the soil is very sandy and the closest thing we have to bedrock is a porous water filled layer of limestone, an extremely weak and easily eroded material.
The third problem is human error. Most development in Florida was done quickly and cheaply, by people that shouldn't be allowed to hold a hammer, much less design an entire neighborhood. The county inspectors are the people who couldn't hack it as developers (I am exaggerating, I understand there are some fine upstanding inspectors and surveyors, but I've never met one). The maps on file with the county are often horribly wrong. Some eletrician friends I know who work for one of the largest subcontractors for Florida Power and Lighting, tell me often the safest way to dig is dig a test hole where another cable is supposed to be, and when you don't find it, lay your cable in it's spot. The only way Verizon would have a chance would be to hire the people who work for the county and power companies etc. They know better than to trust the map.

Let's not compare...

[Dr. Cody]

Well maybe the laws are different in FL, but in NY State there's a number you have to call before digging to ensure that there's no underground wires/pipes/etc.

Different laws??? For God's sake, this is a state with its own Fark.com icon.

Hmm.....

[WhiteWolf666]

Let's see.

FTTH.

Geysers of sewage.

I think we can safely sacrifice up to 12.5% of the population in the deployment.

Let the pr0n wars begin!

I'll see you on the other side! Go Fiber!

In PA

[Snorpus]

It's called PA One Call. Give them 3 days notice and they'll mark any underground pipes, cables, conduits, etc. (Small fee for businesses, free for homeowners.)

Of course, that didn't prevent a Verizon sub-contracting crew a few years ago from hitting a natural gas line and taking out two houses.

Re:In PA

[mrjackson2000]

with PA One Call, if you hit something where it wasnt suposta be, the utilities pay to fix it, if you dont call or hit something when you know it's there you pay to have the utilities fix it

Re:In PA

[Moofie]

Yeah, I bet that's a big comfort to the people who burn to death.

I would DIG the sinkhole...

[Demon-Xanth]

Currently I have NO reasonably priced broadband, and none in the near future. For reasonably priced high speed unmetered broadband, I'd go out, dig a hole, and if you're willing to front the $1000 for the used minivan I'll find one for $1000 and drive it into the hole myself.

Re:I would DIG the sinkhole...

[twiddlingbits]

I'd dig the hole, buy the mini-van and pay the neighborhood kids $100 each to ride in it! That way I get broadband AND the peace and quiet to enjoy it!

RTFA

[multipartmixed]

Ask your dad how well his "tone generator" would work with PVC pipe.

Actually, I should *my* dad what he'd do. He's been known to douse for pipe in the field before -- successfully.

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that his dousing success is due in no small part to his unbelievably fanastic memory.

Re:RTFA

[ilovelinux]

wow the man still douses?

he does this as SOP or just for kicks to see the looks on the other guys faces?

I haven't seen dousing in htese here parts for years... Most people don't evne know what that is anymore.

Re:RTFA

[multipartmixed]

> wow the man still douses?

Used to; he retired about five years ago. Does it with a pair of 3' copper brazing rods bent in an L-shape.

> he does this as SOP or just for
> kicks to see the looks on the other guys faces?

A bit of both: SOP when the standard equipment fails or is unavailable for whatever reason.

Re:RTFA

[Mysticalfruit]

My dad's worked with dousing rods as well.

Mostly though, hey'll use an acustophone. You just turn a fauset on and he'll listen for the sound of running water. This is the same equipment they use for finding underground water leaks.

Gotta love content-specific advertisement for VZW

[intheory]

It always cracks me up when I see a negative story about a company, and within the same article a targeted advertisement for that company or related product.

Re:WTF?

[shawn(at)fsu]

Hey now don't forget it runs to Daytona Beach, not everything in Fl ends at Dismal World;)

I grew up in Daytona Beach, and yes contractors are very slow. Very very slow.

fttp://slashdot.org/

[thelenm]

I guess Verizon hasn't deployed it here yet. I type "fttp://slashdot.org/" into Firefox and get "fttp is not a registered protocol".

That's one smart Mexican!

[TyrranzzX]

I bet some geeky mexicans are laughing their asses off at home after they broke all those water mains. 200 don't happen out of incompetance, mabye stupidity, but certainly not incompetance; a water main is a quarter or half inch thick steel PVC reinfored with cement if memory of the last installation in my area serves me properly; they don't exactly break with a shovel. One of the larger digging machines might do the trick, but even then, you move slowly if you don't have the plans for where the main is. When you hear the "ding" or the motor going into high gear, you stop. Florida is mostly sand, and there aren't exactly huge boulders buried beneath the earth like in maine.

So, from the slashdot community (or at least, one small nut of it), we thank you, oh nameless, crazy geek mexican for sticking it to verisign, and scaring some hapless soccer mom. As much as people would hate to lose a nice phat 30Mbps pipe, I think they want to see verisign fail even more.

Re:That's one smart Mexican!

[awehttam]

As much as we'd all love to see Verisign rot in hell, the company involved is Verizon.

Thanks for playing.

Re:That's one smart Mexican!

[TyrranzzX]

*bangs head on table*

Well, it would be entertainihng to see one sue the other for trademark infringement ^.^.

I'll take the sinkhole if I get the broadband too

[Cyberllama]

I don't have any children or minivans.

"geyser of raw sewage spewing into her front yard"

[m0ntar3]

Once FTTP is connected, she'll have a "geyser of raw sewage spewing into her" family room, living room, bedroom, kitchen, basement, ...

Whats to be safer?

[t_allardyce]

So wait, doing this causes SUVs to sink into the ground along with anoying mum and kids??? where do I sign??

Florida, famous for more than sunshine

[bradleyland]

Apparently infrastructure management is a pretty big problem in FL. Most municipalities have no clue where their lines are anyway, so it doesn't help to call them. This was a huge problem for the many EOC's around the state with the recent hurricanes.

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[malfunct]

If the cost of paying to have the break fixed is less than preventing the break in the first place it sounds like a great time to impose a fine on breaking lines by not being careful with your digging.

Honestly this sounds like a bunch of contractors not doing due diligence. It also sounds like the backhoe operators need to slow down and be careful. I agree with the stop but it can't be forever. They need to stop it now and make it clear that any further breaks will result in fines and a preponderance of breaks from a single contractor will result in steps to revoke that contractors licence.

Not here

[Ambient_Developer]

10$ says that contractor gets blacklisted!

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[macdaddy]

Bullshit. Do you have any idea how hard it is to not break a 3" PVC residential water inlet on new construction? Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep from digging up a pipe that's not supposed to be there? The county's maps are screwed up. You can't blame the contractors for that. There aren't many options for finding a buried PVC water line. Witching doesn't always work. Ground penetrating radar is expensive as hell. That's why the county is supposed to have accurate maps to guide workers. If the maps are borked then you should expect nothing less than hundreds of broken lines in a project of this size. In fact I'm truly surprised that there haven't been more broken lines witha crew of 2000 spread out across the county. I speak from experience as both a netadm and as a backhoe operator. I'm a jack of all trades.

This blame game wouldn't happen in Kansas. Kansas law requires an official "locate" before digging can commence. If the owners of said buried lines fail to locate their lines or mark them in the wrong spots, causing them to be dug up, they are responsible for the damage. Not the one doing the digging. I'm surprised Florida doesn't have a similar law.

I have a question

[mixy1plik]

Let me raise a point I didn't see here.

I would assume that a public works department or some other agency would keep records of where things are buried under their streets?

I don't know a lot about the telecom industry, but I assume that they are supposed to follow some sort of digging plan based on information from the town. I suppose they may not have these things, and/or the subcontractors are just that terrible. Someone above me posted something about the water table, so there could be legit reasons for poking holes in pipes. I just have to wonder, did they have any kind of map or plan?

FTTP is supposed to be tested in my area soon, I can't wait!

Sewage geysers???

[miskatonic alumnus]

Since when are the sewer pipes under high pressure? The sewerometer reads 130,000 psi (poops / square inch).

Re:WTF?

[macdaddy]

Don't you really mean Hillsborough County has idiots keeping their records straight? You can't hardly fault the contractors for hitting lines that the counties own official maps say are are somewhere else. Maybe you Hillsborough County Floridians should vote more wisely and elect someone that will hire compotent staff to keep their important records straight. If they can't keep a simple set of maps up to date, what makes you think they can keep your property tax, deeds, and titles straight?

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[mkettler]

It's pretty much the same way out here. If you don't mark your lines, it's your problem...

However, in the article, the county is also complaining that the contractors aren't telling what happened when they dig up a line. That's a big problem.

The city I live in is all 100% buried lines. All power, phone, cable, gas and water is buried. No telephone poles anywhere. The only exception is the high-tension towers coming down into the substations.

Early this past spring, the electric utility ran new lines down the street to the distribution transformer at the end of the street.

All the utilities came out and painted lines all over the place indicating where buried lines were. However, about 1/2 the residents on my street wound up with severed phone or cable lines. You could count them, because they were repaired first with temporary lines that you could see running along people's yards, then buried later.

My cable was cut, as was my neighbor to the right. My neighbor to the left had their phone line cut.

No water, sewer or lines were hit, but we likely have copper and iron lines (early 70's placements).

Buried utilities are always a bit of a mess. If Florida expected no incidents like this they are fools at best. Very few utilities have good accurate maps that are 100% free of mistakes. Most are riddled with mistakes and lines get hit. Really, you need to prevent where possible, but hits are going to be common.

Front Yard?

[Ancil]

Warning: Deploying Verizon's new Fiber To The Premises.. may involve geysers of raw sewage spewing onto your front yard

If you're going to browse deviant porn sites, at least put your computer somewhere indoors.

RTFA

[macdaddy]

I never have understood what was so difficult about RTFA for the majority of Slashdotters. I can certainly understand not RTFA is the server hosting it is Slashdotted. That makes sense of course. I don't think that was the case here though. Anyhow, the county's maps are seriously borked. Verizon does have the maps of course but they aren't exactly useful. It's basically Russian Roulette with a backhoe. The maps for the older neighborhoods show lines in the wrong spots. It's hard to not dig something up that's supposed to be over there *points 6 feet away*. The newer neighborhoods use PVC for water and sewer lines. This is what's used nowadays but it's extremely easy to break. PVC breaks are expected quite frankly. You have figure them into to every bid. If anyone is to be blamed it should be the county for maintaining piss poor maps.

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[egomaniac]

Witching doesn't always work.

Amazingly, it works at exactly the rate predicted by chance. Funny, that.

maybe there's a solution...

[zogger]

..for the future anyway. This problem has been around a long time, just maybe there should be a regulation that plastic pipe buried underground have some ferrous powder mixed into the plastic so that any normal metal detector could find it. Maybe they thought of that though, and the metal would weaken the plastic though, because it might rust and cause microscopic weepy leaks and leech into the water into the house. I don't know, perhaps an additional coating on the inside might fix that potential problem. So an alternative, just have some cheap wire run with it, along side it in the trench.

Re:maybe there's a solution...

[Random832]

Or a coating on the outside - or steel bands every 5ft, or a thin metal "dummy pipe" running alongside, or any number of other solutions.

Re:maybe there's a solution...

[macdaddy]

The solution I like is to lay in a couple cheap pairs of copper wire with the line. It could be anything like old residential telephone wiring or recommissioned Cat3 pulled during an office remodel. Anything like that would work. Loop one end (preferrably the unaccessible end). Then you can hook up a $40 tone generator to the pair and use basic telecom tools to find the line in the ground. Slick as hell.

Get the Facts before you rant !!!

[Brigadier]

a.) Any underground excavation requires you call the 1-800-DIG-ALERT number. If you've ever look on any set of Civil drawings you woudl know that.

b.) Now you are right, there are maps, and yes some are out of date. However very few are, and when there is doubt a simple Sonar, or EMR scan is done to locate any pipes.

The problem is the company Verizon is using for thier excavation is doing it ass backwords.

CBYD

[BlainTheTrain]

Just had my septic system replaced and before any excavator's and dump trucks could do anything, the excatation company had to call "Call Before You Dig program [ http://www.cbyd.com ] in CT. This to me should be a no brainer for all states to mandate as it will prevent issues and nightmares like Florida is having. Wonder why Verizon didnt call this place "http://www.callsunshine.com/corp/" first - hell its FREE!

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[Jaysyn]

If the county had proper records of where the utilities are, this more than likley wouldn't happen at all. Not to mention that most of Hillsbourough Co is over a little sinkhole we like to call the Florida Aquifer. Even with all these hurricanes we've had, I'd still bet dollars to doughnuts that we're still below normal rainfall level. I design similar inside & outside plant plans for a living & on every single one (for *any* company, QWEST, Verizon, BellSouth etc) there is a little number (Florida One Call in Florida) that the plant installers (diggers) are supposed to call so they can get locates for various utilities. I'd bet that the fault lies with the city for not having those records updated *and* for approving the permits to dig to start with.

Jaysyn

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[TheGax]

Brighthouse Networks did similar (replacing CATV copper with fiber) work here in the Tampa Bay region a year or so ago without the multitude of issues that Verizon is having.

So, bullshit on that. It is possible to lay fiber and dig up lawns without breaking pipes and letting water mains leak thousands of gallons of water for 7 hours.

From the news broadcast

[wrenhunter]

"...opened a sinkhole at the worst possible moment"

Best possible moments for a sinkhole:

• Right after you've charged the battery pack in your new digicam
• Just after someone says "What, is the earth going to open up and swallow me?"
• listless fall afternoons

Who is really at fault here?

[chrisah6]

Let's face it. It is the resposibility of the utilities to make sure they know where their lines are and provide that information. This crap were the county say's, oh, we know some of the maps are not correct but they could use gps, blah blah blah. Bullshit, Provide the contractors with accurate maps and then start blaming the contractors when pipes are hit. Just like a damn city or any government for that matter. Don't do what they should do because they can blame someone else down the road and make them fix any problems that arise because of it. Get a grip people. We pay these utilities a crap load of money, Water, sewer, cable, electric, phone, whatever. It is there job to know where their lines are and to provide that information to ANYONE that needs it.

here's hoping they don't give up

[torrents]

putting the fiber underground it pretty capital intensive but if they would run them above ground like some power/telephone lines they would be affected mych more by weather and have to replace sections much more often... dealing with sewage bursts is probably a better and more cost effective alternative

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[macdaddy]

Not hardly. It's highly accurate. Chance and luck don't have a thing to do with it. Obviously you've never tried it.

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[macdaddy]

However, in the article, the county is also complaining that the contractors aren't telling what happened when they dig up a line. That's a big problem.

I read it but I must have overlooked that part. Yeah, that would be a big problem if they're doing that. Definitely irresponsible. Perhaps they have too many grunts and not enough foremen on the job sites. That might account for it. Maybe.

Sounds like a nice town. I'd love to see one like that sometime. Buried everything must be very aesthetically pleasing.

Really, you need to prevent where possible, but hits are going to be common.

Yeah, it's expected. Really you can't dig in any industrialized city and not expect to hit something. That's just the way it works. Like we netadms always say, there's nothing better for finding buried fiber than a backhoe. Network went down? Blame it on a backhoe interrupt. :-)

Mandatory WX joke:

[SonicSpike]

Question) What will go 100 MPH and blow you in the back seat?

Answer:)A hurricane!

God has Spoken!

[NuShrike]

Next, frogs and fish will rain from the heavens followed by multiple hurricanes.

Obligatory "Brazil" Quotes

[unithom]

Spoor: "We're here to install the fiber, eh mate?"
Dowser: "...mmm the fiber, ya."

Sam: "Yes, but do you have a twenty-seven B-stroke-six? Sorry, I'm a bit of a stickler for paperwork."

(... a bit later, Sam can be seen switching the "Fiber" and "Raw sewage" lines. Spoor and Dowser's plastic suits fill up completely with excrement and explode.)

Sam: "Shit!"
Tuttle: "We're all in it together, kid."

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[mkettler]

"Sounds like a nice town. I'd love to see one like that sometime. Buried everything must be very aesthetically pleasing."
Aesthetics is one of the nice features.. Lack of outages during storms is another good one.

The fact that the city is sufficiently picky about appearances that they've banned above ground lines does also have it's drawbacks. It's a whole city that's a "planned community", and at times getting approval for something like cutting down a tree that died due to disease can take up to two months of pushing paper through the advisory boards. If your timing is good you can get approval in 2-3 weeks, but if it's bad...

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[macdaddy]

Good grief. See, that's why I'd hate to live in a city with people that think they can control what I do on my own property. If have a tree in my yard that I want to take down I'll damned well take it down. It reminds me of the bored people that create these neighborhood committees (I can't think of the phrase right now) that tries to establish and enforce a dresscode for your property; what color your roof can be, what kind of grass can make up your lawn, the size and shape of flowerbeds in front of your house, yadda, yadda, yadda. Basically the bored busy-body of yesteryear has been reborn to start and run these annoying committees. There were a number of news stories about them prior to the elections when they tried to prevent people from putting political signs in their front yards. They ended up getting their asses handed to them in court for trying to stifle political free speech. Yowzers.

Re:201st sinkhole! 202nd sewage geyser!

[mkettler]

Like I said, it's definitely got it's drawbacks....

And yes, we've got a dresscode, much as I dislike it.

I don't particularly like that aspect, but there are some nice frills that offset it a bit. (always nice looking area, very nice public parks, gyms, pools, etc). And, most importantly, I'm 5 miles from work.

I'm willing to suffer some extra hours of paper pushing on the rare occasion I want repaint my house a different color in to save myself time in my everyday commute to work. (tradeoffs, gotta love em.)