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DrinkOrDie Warez Trader to be Extradited to U.S.
femto writes "Hew Raymond Griffiths, alleged to be one of the leaders of the warez group DrinkOrDie, is to be extradited to the United States after losing an appeal. The case is of interest as the appeal was based on the fact that during the offences, alleged to have been committed in the US, the accused did not leave Australia."
"DrinkOrDie is one of the oldest and most sophisticated software pirate groups within the 'Warez' community, which is a loose, global network of Internet pirate gangs."
If these guys don't have eye patches and peg legs I am going to be SO disappointed.
Aarrrrrrrr.
Insert witty sig here.
Damn!...and I thought Anonymous meant I was safe. (FBI scanning current message....)
i've been using their shit for years
If there is no record of him entering the U.S., how could he possibly have commited the crimes in the U.S.?
No, I don't think the court would get it, either.
It was common throughought ancient Europe for the citizens of Rome's provinces or client states to be subject to its laws and legal process - often above and beyond those of their own state or tribe. But at least the Romans had enough decency to openly call it an Empire!
Ha Ha!
Technology, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
illegally cracked security codes and reproduced software, games and music worth $US50 million ($71.6 million).
....
Griffiths, who is unemployed and lives with his parents, was ordered to pay costs.
The mother, the mother! Why wont someone think of the mother?!
Not if it is illegal in your country to launch a missile at another country.
All Hail the great USA ... this is just BS
The Australian government does whatever the US tells it to do these days.
This case is yet another reason why the rest of the world needs to band together to curb the lawlessness of the current US administration.
In a legal dispute between a DrinkOrDie member and the United States Government, why link to a United States Government document on the group? It's a little biased.
Wikipedia, perhaps a more neutral source, has an article on DrinkOrDie
How is he going to be expected to pay the fines against him? I somehow doubt his parents could cough up the cash.
Gee thanks for the great mod, how about an answer?
According to the article the guy being extradited is 42 years old, unemployed and lives with his parents.
How did this guy ever come under suspicion of cracking software and posting it on the Net?
Insert witty sig here.
I thought (most) countries don't extradite their own citizens, no matter what. At the very least not for relatively minor offenses like this.
Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
Give this article a shot. http://www.chokedout.org/SPT--FullRecord.php?Resou rceId=261 Description: After a swift defeat last March, the American government has won an appeal in an Australian court to have Hew Raymond Griffiths extradited to America to face trial - on charges of copyright infringement. Griffiths is accused of being the ringleader of a "warez" group known as DOD (Drink or Die), using the alias Bandido. So-called warez groups reverse engineer software, freeing it of any copy protection, and spread it across the Internet free of charge. Don't be swayed by the US DOJ's propaganda about warez - its claim, for example, that it costs millions (per group) and billions (in sum total) to the software industry each year. These are the same erroneous, inflated figures pumped out by the BSA annually. What's really at stake here is the legal sovereignty of Australia. Admittedly, they gave some of that up by accepting a recent trade pact with the US, and importing the DMCA into .au law as a result. But the implications of the Griffiths' case are much more serious. "Bandido" never profited from his crimes - he was and still is, in fact, unemployed and living with his parents. He showed public disdain to those who would profit from the work of others. Nor does the American government contend this.
They also don't contend a more obvious fact - Griffiths has never set foot in America in his life. Still, despite Australian law being more than equipped to deal with such a case, the DOJ under Ashcroft has decided to impose U.S. law on the world at large.
Why is there a need for America to cast aside the Australian legal system like a weak little brother (then again, in 2004, it basically is the weak little brother, and John Howard personifies this to a T)?
Consider this another step in a downward spiral. It began with the No Electronic Theft Act - prior to the NET Act of 1997, actions such as Bandido's were permissible under United States law because he did not profit from them. The NET Act closed the loophole at the behest of Music Industry officials and others. It was the first major victory in a lobbying campaign that continues today, robbing consumers of their rights and industries of free competition. The PIRATE Act and INDUCE Act have this piece of legislation to thank for their consideration (and, most likely in one form or another, eventual passage).
Then came the DMCA, universally regarded as one of the worst technology laws ever. Implemented in 1998, it outlawed the work of professors, researchers, corporations, and has done nothing but stifle competition and criminalize actions that should be legal - such as backing up a copy of a DVD that a person has purchased.
In 2000 came raids on another warez group, PWA - Pirates with Attitudes. At the time one of the oldest pirate groups on the net (dating back to the days of underground BBS's), the group found themselves at the mercy of the Department of Justice's new push into intellectual property crime and copyright infringement - areas that in the past had been regarded as civil matters.
After originally fighting the charges, group members eventually pled guilty, but not before the government re-calculated its damages claim (to a considerably lower number), assuring themselves of relatively lenient sentences (the longest was 17 months in prison - still harsh if you want to picture millions of Americans facing this simply for using KaZaa to swap MP3s or Doom 3). Papers such as the Wall Street Journal followed the case, setting off faint alarm bells - as Lee Gomes of the WSJ put it in a 2000 article, "This sort of naughtiness has been around the personal-computing world from the very beginning. The very first business of Apple co-founders Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs was selling the '70s-era "little blue boxes" that allowed people to make free long-distance phone calls."
After that came the lesser takedown of a group known as Fastlane (who didn't crack software themselves but rather traded it, making them essentially a
US Prisons give buggery a whole new meaning. Don't let yourself be sold for less than 2 cartoons of ciggies or people will think you like to be turned out.
The rest of the world (the west and Asia, the parts that count and aren't running around beheading eachother for diamonds and splinters of land) is very close to the US. This isn't the US bullying, this is what normal countries do. If you want to steal from us, you'll be punished by us. If you don't like it, leave and live in war ridden Africa.
42 unemployed and lives with his parents. Great work! Now we will get to pay for court costs and put him in jail and pay for that too.
Those were the days, early/mid 90's, you truly have to be stupid or underage to do this now. From ftp's such as Bleach Box (BBX) to the early days of the Rock Creek BBS, ahh, memories....
-anonymous (ex-RiSC/RzR/DoD)
Get your guns.
As an American I've been wondering for a while why your government pretty much does whatever we tell them to do, without any sort of problems with resentment, national pride, or even seemingly rational thought. I can never see an American being extridited to Australia for an alleged crime, who has never actually been to Australia. I know that Howard is an ass (the opinion of most aussies I meet). But being a total neo-conservative prick doesn't really explain it, especially in cases like this. What do you really think the Australian government gets for being our lapdog?
...from one country to another, the country I bomb can't touch me?
It's understandable for the target country to pursue you, and for a missile I wouldn't be surprised if they're willing to break some rules to do so.
However, if your own country doesn't see fit to make the action illegal then I can see no reason for them to extradite you for an act they themselves permit. Similarly, if there are laws against it in the home country then I can see no reason why they should extradite one of their own people rather than having them tried under their own laws. Apart from anything else, extradition to a foreign jurisdiction is a pretty extreme action imposed upon someone deemed to be innocent untless proven guilty.
I'd love to help, but it is REALLY out of the realm of 'easy to answer'
Hey, I bet the US wasn't the only place he committed these offences. He probably uploaded and infringed on software products all over the world.
Why should the US have sole custody of the guy? Why not visit Japan and England as well on a government sponsored world tour? If he is lucky, there may be a few Eastern Bloc countries as well.
The case is of interest as the appeal was based on the fact that during the offences, alleged to have been committed in the US, the accused did not leave Australia. Remember back when being in another country during the crime was a perfect alibi? Ah, those were the good old days.
Hope you enjoy Bubba, mate.
What was your username again? -BOFH
this is fucken unreadable MOD DOWN
This is the second time today I've seen a discussion thread at Slashdot where people equate capital offences to civil offences.
It may shock you to hear this, but traditionally murder and copyright infringement are not viewed in the same types of offences.
The parent contains no factual information to backs its inflammatory claims. It does a disservice to the US and Australian governments and adds nothing to this /. article discussion.
Should run. 16 bit apps generally run fine in plain old windows xp with a couple compatability switches turned on.
stupid lameness filter
When escaping the law and fleeing the US do not hide in Australia. Damn, I really wanted a pet dingo too.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
Man, everyone is so pissed about this, but I just can't seem to get up the energy to want to defend this guy since he's guilty as hell.
It seems that everyones pissed that he was commiting these crimes and they finally got sick of it and figured out a way to nail him.
This case is way out of the norm, a special circumstance in every way, and like every good system there has to be ways to address unique situations.
This to me doesnt seem like the huge abuse people are alledging, and I'm not feeling a slippery slope here either.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
And let's describe Attila the Hun as someone with "an active, outdoor lifestyle."
--George Carlin
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
I am an aussie and our government DOES do whatever the US says.
Two australians were being held in guantanamo bay while the french and british got their nationals back.
Our prime minister, john howard, is a lap dog of the US army. We always have been, korea, vietnam, gulf I, gulf II.
The parent is not refering to ganging up to attack the US, just that there should be groups powerful enough to counter-balance. Nobody has a problem with US power, just with unbridled US superpower with a motley crew of fools, religious nuts and captains of industry directing it.
There are pirate gangs now? Arrrr, I best be hiding my booty.
If this guy's headed for Federal Prison, that's a good plan.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Judge: So what evidence do you have? Perhaps some incriminating documents?
Prosecution: No.
Judge: Surveillence tapes?
Proescution: Er, no.
Judge: Wiretap?
Prosecution: Not today, your honor, no.
Judge: Well what *do* you have?
Prosecution: Well, it's quite simple. Barring the creation of some kind of hyper-intelligent android (which we shall call EvilHackingPirateScumBot), the man responsible for these reprehensible acts MUST be a human being...
Judge: Go on...
Prosecution: Now, I direct your attention to exhibit A--the defendant. As can be clearly seen, he is in fact a human!
Judge: My God, you're right!
Prosecution: So, from this, we can clearly see that since the man we are after is a human, and the defendant is also a human, then he must have done it!
Judge: You know, you're right! Bailiff, take this man away.
Prosecution: (haha, suckers)
Judge: But you know, I can't help but notice that you're a human as well...
Prosecution: Well, I hardly think...
Judge: I see now, this was all just a ploy! Bailiff, arrest every human in this courtroom, and then throw yourself in a cell...
We're geeks... We're the sorcerers of the modern-day world. --
"Our prime minister, john howard, is a lap dog of the US army. We always have been, korea, vietnam, gulf I, gulf II."
Way to give evidence. Considering that John Howard wasn't in power for any of these except for Gulf II, your argument holds about as much water as a busted sieve.
The fact is that Australian governments for decades have realised that having America as a friend is a good idea. They essentially kept us from starving during World War 2 and since then we've paid back the favour.
While I think the current round in Iraq was less than wise and proper, it's hard to back down when you have a precedent. We've been there for the honest wars and the stupid ones too. If your friend helps when you're drunk and puking on his carpet, he's a true mate and you owe him.
Same principle.
Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.
NOTE TO SELF: Do not flee to Australia after I upload Longhorn on a public ftp.
No, but I think it's comparing apples and oranges. Sadly, the courts go your way. Read up on U.S. v Noriega and you shall find what you seek. Here's the best I could google quickly:
http://www.gwu.edu/~jaysmith/Noriega.html
What you are after and the clueless below seem not to understand is the issue of territorial jurisdiction. I think the precedents are wrong-headed, but it is what it is.
Global communications schemes are going to make many extraterritorial acts fall under the reach of the U.S. or whomever wants to prosecute the offense. The legal nightmares have only just begun. If you did it on the internet, you violated a law somewhere at sometime. Sweet dreams...
"While I think the current round in Iraq was less than wise and proper, it's hard to back down when you have a precedent."
Wow, how did the previous poster _dare_ to use the word lapdog? Australia is worldwide known for it's backbone...
Civilized countries do not extradite their own citizens for crimes committed in their own country.
(note: the country i live in is not civilized in that sense either.)
Hmmm... I wonder if this means they can't go to Harvard either?
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
I good example would be that Pornography in Australia has a minimum age of 16 whereas in America is 18, therefore sites like hushhush.com are illegal in the states. Should the webmasters be extrodited as child pornographers?
So now Australia is making use of extraordinary rendition, too...
That particular torrent site prides itself upon posting all threatening letters from U.S. companies & lawyers and saying how they can get away with it because they're in some European nation or whatever that has no law against what they're doing, but they may find their cocky asses in the U.S. as well in due time.
...everyone here is defending this guy. He stole the works of others.
see topic
During the late 1950s and early 1960s, the idea was less irrational than you might think. Then president Soekarno not only was uncannily friendly to China and the Soviets (scary!), he also had this megalomaniac idea that the entire region should be united into one humongous country that would include Malaysia, the Philippines and even Madagascar (based on some weird idea of shared ethnicity). In the end all that came of it was the inclusion of the western half of New Guinea into Indonesia (thanks in no small part to the US and Australia - great thinking there, guys!), but at one point in time the threat posed by Indonesia was very real.
Murdoch.
Country's.
Criticisms.
Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.
It seems to me that some people here have a very retarded sense of humour.
I really hope you'll find yourself in prison some time in the future, innocent or not, and have a laugh at your
own expense.
Cracking DRM before the DCMA, so people could evauluate software or use 3dsmax on their laptops without the legion of dongles hanging off of their parallel port.
All that free publicity from kids who would later become graphic designers using high end products.
The only real criminals are people who used software they didn't own a liscense to in a commercial context.
This guy was just helping people out, most of whom would be using the software for fun in a non-commercial context.
Bet they 'make an example of him' and throw away the key - self serving fascist scumbags.
Stop 'piracy' and see how fast your software user base chokes up when college students can't get tied into your high priced packages.
'Piracy' increases your market share, it helps sales.
Unemployed, Lives With Parents - sounds like he was risking it all for the most alturistic of reasons.
A real country does NOT extradite his nationals.
This thing usually works this way so there are never important things left alone without punishment. Your country judges you, if there is something in your own law that u did and can throw you in jail, they will throw you in jail. If you do something in another country that is also illegal in your country, you get your ass in jail (one in your own country). With this system you gain several things, you can get sure no one gets abused by a foreign nation because they are judged in your own soil and jailed in it too, you only punish real crimes that are obviously punished everywhere (think of murder theft etc), and small or not so small countries keep being real countries and not just bitches.
And all that without even stoping to consider the human rights implications of all this stuff.
Australia is sending one of his own people thousands of miles away for something australians do not want/or have been able to put in a legal code so they can punish it. Its pathetic
I say that as neither an Aussie or a Yank, but somebody who has lived and worked with many from both nations.
The fondest wish of an Australian is to be a "sopheeeesteeecated" American. The fondest wish of Australia is to be the "United States of Australia".
Whether it's due to the collective national inferiority complex the Australians harbour about their history, or whether they simply wish to be richer, more powerful, and, well, noticed, I can't say.
But don't believe your Aussie mate when he claims to hate Yanks...he wishes he was one of them more than you can imagine.
And equally, should American pornographers like Hefner be extradited to Saudi Arabia?
The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
It's exactly the same tactic psychologically they used in the Stalin Russia, but in gloves - no torture and he won't be executed at the end, only his life would be ruined and he would have to struggle with it till natural end.
So in other words this a nasty PR stunt to protect the revenue streams of already rich and powerful. Nothing new really, it's been going like this for ages, just with less hiporcisy - all land belonged to king and nobility and different rules applied to them than to average peasants.
Those of us outside the US are just not interested in bowing to your retard of a leader. Fuck Bush and fuck the American Empire.
Innocent until proved guilty doesn't exist anymore.
Nodays someone calls either terrorist or copywrite infringer and you're guilty no matter what.
So can I be extradited to America for consuming alcohol before I was 21? Can they arrest me for it if I go there on holiday? Of course we all know the laws of the US are more important then other democratic countries. And my (Australian) government is happy to hand people over to the Americans who have broken no laws in Australia.
========
CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
In some countries some kinds of webpages are illegal - for example, webpages that spread "hate speach" such as nazi stuff.
Or in china there are probably a hole bunch of kinds of webpages that are forbidden.
So, using this extradition as a referense, if someone in the USA made one of these illegal pages; which are not illegal in the USA but elsewhere, it would be possible to have him extradited because he DID commit a crime in another country - without leaving US.
Is that fair? Is that good?
What about dictatorship X (imaginary) which bans 99% of all webpages on the web? Are we all going to be extradited then? Horrible!
One of the oldest groups?
:p
I'd take that bet. Didn't they come around in 1998 or so?
I dunno, I stopped keeping up with groups after BBS's went the way of the Dodo. PWA 4 71F3
Ha ha.
When was the latest extradition of an Australian for theft?
Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
Geo-strategic support. Australia is the English-speaking outpost in the Asia region. It is also a glittering strategic prize in the Asian and Pacific area. It's all about resources, warfare and logistics to the area.
When will they learn? One falls ten more replace them. Simile of the day: Legal action, mpaa, riaa, etc is to pirating as an umbrella is to a tsunami. Not going to make a lick of difference. Hey! I've got an idea, instead of spending the time and money on bringing non-us citizens over here for trial... the Software/Movie/Music industry should fix the problems that cause piracy. (Not all, but some, and my own) I.E.: The games that spend 90% of the budget on the advertising and not the game itself. The movie that baits by showing the best 5 minutes of the movie in trailers and shoveling an hour and a half of crap in between. The Cd with one good song and another 50 minutes of garbage. With legal threats and riaa/mpaa finger pointing. Something my granny used to say, bless her corpse, was "When you start pointing fingers, you only have 3 pointing back at yourself." Thats why when I point at industry(s)... I only use one finger. ;)
Even since I started reading slashdot, I lost all respect for Australia as a nation. It must be hard to be proud to be australian when your government is such an american puppet...as opposed to, say, France.
Everybody probably knows this but it bears repeating. Federal prisons aren't so bad in that respect. It's state penitentiaries that you want to stay away from.
Well by that token, why not "sharing the wealth" groups? All of these terms have an inherent bias, one way or another. "Citizens (who generally have reasons for what they do) accused of a crime" would be the best term imho, but since it's long-winded and we like soundbytes that ignore the concept of innocence until proven guilty, we're not going to see that.
I bet it cost as much to get him extracted as his actions cost the software companies...
I can now stop time, but the effect is only temporary
Pornography - in its legally defined form - is illegal in most states of Australia. Seriously.
People can and have been prosecuted for possession and distribution of 'X' rated material.
'Nude photography' however, (ie bums and boobs) is not considered pornography under the law, and has a minimum age of 16 (with parental consent IIRC). There has been more than one case where the model in a particular magazine was old enough to pose, but still too young to legally buy the magazine.
The difference is that it is illegal in BOTH countries. So stop acting like Australia is merely caving to the whims of America.
Slashdot is so full of conspiracy theorists...
Copying is not stealing.
Otherwise theft laws would apply. But copyright laws are the relevant laws in this case.
Even though he made copies and let other people have access to them, the copyright owners still have access to their own originals and copies.
[If he broke some other law in order to get copies then those laws apply.]
So it's not really stealing unless you believe that the Copyright Owners have _automatic_ right to your money just because you use a copy instead. Remember: copyright is a "limited" granted monopoly over copying and distribution, and most copyright laws have fair use clauses.
In fact to me what really is stealing is the extension of copyright terms especially the _retroactive_ extensions in the US.
When a copyright term expires, the copyrighted work enters the Public Domain - in which case the public has full access to the work - they can freely and legally make copies and derivative works.
IMO extending copyright terms can arguably be viewed as closer to stealing. Stealing from the Public - since they are removing access to works that would have otherwise be or become publicly accessible.
But worse are the _retroactive_ extensions - works that are actually already public domain, are then suddenly taken away from the Public.
So who are the real thieves?
Think about it.
Don't get brainwashed by the Media Industry etc. They like to use terms lik stealing, pirates, intellectual property, just to brainwash people. It works. I think even judges and lawmakers are starting to get brainwashed.
The US copyright extension is closer to the Lawnmower Copying Monopoly promising to let the public copy a lawnmower after X years so that the Public can freely make copies of it, and then bribing/convincing law makers so that they only have to return it after 20 years more (or till they stop bribing them). Sure it's not legally stealing - coz the lawmakers changed the law after all, but morally/ethically I believe it is closer to stealing than copyright infringement- which is just making copies of the lawnmower (sure that hurts the industry with a legal monopoly on lawnmower copying, but is it stealing? If I buy a different lawnmower or don't use lawnmowers I also hurt them).
I leave the analogy for the retroactive extensions to you.
If you were a shoplifter, would you like to be called a rapist? Even if the populace in general started calling all shoplifters "rapists"? And if this happened because some Sears-CEO showed on TV saying "those shoplifters are raping me, they are rapists"?
That is the question. Calling copyright infringers "pirates" is a marketing ploy (brought to you by your *AA and other copyright-holder-associations in the world) to make other people think: (a) that copyrights as implemented today is a perfect system and (b) that people who infringe copyrights are the worse scum on Earth.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
They also view themselves as Robin Hood figures -- pirating new software so it can be distributed freely over the Internet. They seek an Internet devoid of rules or law.
...
and who are we
Extradiction of nationals is forbidden by our Constitution.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Ok, I totally agree that software piracy must be eliminated and pirates are thefts. But original software is way too expensive, especially for people without their own income.
.NET is $840. Half Life 2 is $49. etc
For example, Microsoft Windows XP Home is $116.99. Microsoft Office Student is $124.99. Visual Studio
If I am forced to use Windows, due to various reasons (either because I am a programmer and my job is on a project that is developed on Windows, or a student that wants to learn Windows or because everybody sends me Word documents or for any other reason), then original software is way too expensive. Of course there are alternatives, but if am *forced* to use software that is sold for a price, then it's too expensive.
Why original software is that expensive? Microsoft has already covered the expenses of all software development and marketing multiple times for all its products and for future research, and their spare cash are enough to feed a country. When I buy a copy of their software, 99% of the price goes in Bill's pockets. Why should I make Bill richer? (I am only talking about Microsoft because its the easiest example. The same goes for every other money charging software company).
So piracy will exist as long as prices are so big that allow people to become so rich as to have more money than entire countries. From an organized society's perspective, it sounds crazy. From a free market perspective, it is ok (hey free market drives economy as well as technological advance), but it is still scandalous.
A civilized country would NEVER extradite one of their own citizens on this basis. This is really an interesting and rather scaring precedent. However, perhaps the Aussies just did it to save themselves the trouble of the CIA kidnapping the guy out of their prison. Don't laugh, this HAS happended (at least in one European country which often is wrongly associated with Kangaroos)
-- The Online Photo Editor - http://www.phixr.com
No.
Generally, all extradition treaties have provision where country A will not extradite a person to country B unless the offense with which he is charged is a crime in country A.
For AU to extradite him to the US, the act he is charged with must be considered a crime by AU.
your gravity fails and negativity don't pull you through
In this case ftp stands for fuckthepolice
Can we develop a routing protocol so packets respect the laws of various countries?
Otherwise I think an awful lot of people are bound to be in trouble somewhere
Yes Webmasters should be extradited as they have the potential to do illegal stuff.
Seriously unless you can demonstate you have substantial non infringing uses then yes you should be extradited.
Er Sen. Orrin Hatch how about an induce act for people I mean people could do crimes right so better lock them up before the crime happens.
In fact just abort everyone so they don't grow up and do bad stuff.
Copyright Infringement that is soooo evil, guy should get the chair
You're equating a copyright violation to an act of war.
You work for the RIAA/MPAA/BSA right?
No, because the webmasters are not commiting a crime in their country of residence. I'm not familiar with AUian law (and am not a lawyer in any case), but somehow I doubt that what DrinkOrDie are doing is legal in AU...
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I thought Australia had a law that stopped them extraditing people to countries where those people were likely to face human rights abuses such as torture, execution and right-wing conservatives?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
In a decade's time, this will be an important part in enabling a global death penalty for intellectual-property theft.
(And it will happen. The most valuable property in the West is intellectual property, which is easy to steal and difficult to defend. If a crime is economically serious and hard to prosecute, the penalties must be made very severe to act as a deterrent (the proportion is exponential to difficulty of prosecution).)
http://www.chokedout.org/SPT--FullRecord.php?Resou rceId=279
This story is dated today. It's the same site that posted the earlier article you guys are posting around. Some of the accusations in the story, in regards to the US Customs agent partaking in fraud and other crimes, came from posts and documents posted at IZONews.com - some of these were official court documents from the UK trial that were scanned. They indicated the the informant in the case spent years involved in illegal activity on his own accord. He infiltrated the group after his server was used for warez, but profitted from credit card fraud (getting stolen hardware).
What great people the US government has working for them! What's the worse crime - warez or credit card fraud? Gee, I wonder...
Why not run only/use OSS, that way you know that no Money has gone into the wrong hands.
Or move to Cuba!
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I'm all for stopping copyright infringement where economic harm can be proven.
But in this case I don't think so.
Profiless Distribution was legal in th USA till 1998, when the NET upped the stakes for Robin-Hood WAREZ doods.
I think it still should be, as it has substantial non-infringinging uses, like my DRM CD breaks on a mission critical project and I can't get off hold on customer support.
Or my crappy dongle stopped working.
Or I want to evaluate the software before I buy it.
Or the company folded and my DRM'ed cd broke but the Intellectual Property is up in the air.
More people protested George Bush then any figure in history.
Why can't slashdot go a day without someone confusing then and than? They aren't even pronounced the same!
if the aussi government crumbles under US pressure and sells out one of its own citizens then im sure the citizens ofaustralia will never vote for the current party in power ever again their number 1 concern should be to protect their citizens especially from governments known for torture and murder.
I Predict A Riot
That's sad when you consider that recent history includes such luminaries as Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, each with literally millions of downright murders to his "credit". Never mind what those totalitarians did to violate international law and all forms of human decency.
Hell, face it. Even Saddam Hussein was demonstrably way worse than even the worst leftist hyperbole thrown at Bush.
Pirates often operate at night:
"Many are successful white-collar business people by day, and DrinkOrDie members by night."
Pirates don't want any laws related to the Internet: (what, so they aren't just not respecting copyrights?)
"They seek an Internet devoid of rules or law."
Profits through piracy may be a secondary motive, via website subscriptions: (wtf? web sites? what happened to Usenet, FTP and IRC?)
"Profit does not appear to be a prime motive, although members operate websites that allow users and other members to download pirated software for a monthly subscription fee."
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
The thing that is most disturbing about this is not that people can get extradited for copyright violations, it is that the US can get someone to be extradited for this, but that hell would freeze over before the US would extradite a US citizen for this kind of offense to another nation.
In my lifetime, as I remember it, the American Empire started with the invasion of the nation of Panama and the kidnapping of President Manuel Noriega.
It was during the reign of Bush the First, as I recall. Citing the justification that the President of Panama was involved in the drug trade, the United States invaded the nation of Panama, surrounded the Presidential compound, blared rock music at high decibel levels, and eventually dragged the President of Panama back to a hole in the U.S. until someone remembered to charge him with something and convict him some years after.
Americans thought it was rather funny. I don't recall a single newsman questioning our right to invade Panama. The comedians made fun of Noriega's complexion, but said not one word about the slaughter we perpetrated.
Wow. Imagine a south/central American nation involved in the drug trade. Imagine the CIA ever caring. Negroponte, one of Bush the Second's new viceroys, was up to his ass in creating the death squads back in the 80's. Mass murder is okay, drugs are not...
According to REALLY supressed statistics the Panamanians kept, the U.S. killed over 2000 civilians rolling into Panama. Armed forces, I don't know, And I have no idea what the hell they charged Noriega with, what he was convicted of, or who sat in judgement. Nor under what possible set of international laws the U.S. could use to invade, kill, and kidnap the Executive in other nations because someone there ships chemicals some Americans don't want other Americans to use for recreational purposes. Imagine: Iraq eventually invading the U.S., killing about a half million people. Imagine them surrounding the White House with loud speakers blasting calls to prayer to drive the inhabitants insane. Imagine the Iraqi's dragging Bush II back to Iraq in irons to face charges for invading Iraq under false auspices. Imagine Iraq setting up a friendly government in the U.S. so that they could get favorable oil prices forevermore. And they'd have more justification than we had for kidnapping and murdering Panamanians.
After all, the Panama Canal was about to pass into Panamanian control in 1999. There wouldn't be any incentive to keep the locks in a friendly puppet's hand, would there?
And I really don't want to hear about Noriega's evil rule. No American ever gave a bloody damn about evil rulers in Panama, and we never will.
So, where do you draw the line?
Distributing kiddie porn is not an act of war, nor is exploiting children to make it. Extradite, or don't extradite?
Using email to organize and execute other crimes (murder, theft, kidnapping) in the U.S. from a foreign country is not an "act of war." Extradite or don't extradite?
I do not understand this pervasive attitude that IT crime is somehow "lesser" than a crime with visible/tangible results. Some go so far as to defend IT offenses "victimless" crimes. I always wonder whether the more vociferous defenders are themselves warez traders or script kiddies--why else would they so dilligently defend the indefensible?
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
Half of your wish is already taken care of. We Ameicans happily go to Wal-Mart to shop for cheap Chinese stuff and thereby boycott American goods. As for military 'misadventures'- humm let's see, European misadventures 1. Crusades, 2. Colonialism, 3. WWI, 4. WWII, -American 'misadventures' are basically cleaning up after those messes. Thank goodness those Europeans know better than we do.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
Mate, we're all descendants of convicts. EVERYTHING is legal here.
When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
Because i am not a dumb computer program like the rest of the current us administration.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the basic living substance of all american products and brands. Whatever you say! I don't believe a word formed from the body which orbits a star. Beer is a sensory organ found on the earth millions of people took to the streets. The ass is an animal through which a missile projected by a worldwide boycott of all the judges i've had the misfortune to meet you. Yes i am!
Reminds me i saw/heard something on dr. Phil the other day about a guy who's relationship with his brother he made the first controlled flight of an ass and a cute saying are all it takes to motivate you, you probably have a child, and here you are now. Because it is a large, ostrich-like flightless bird found in all cells which determines how the cell will act.
This world in arms is not a dumb computer program like the rest of the world is an ordered series of letters used in language. Someday mother will die and i'll get the money.
I had the misfortune to talk about something a little less on military misadventures.
But represnting the truth doesnt help their marketing plan..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Personally neither do I. *WE* are the only ones that count as far as im concerned beacuse I live here.
Now, before you all mod me as a troll, I also belive that you are within your rights to feel the same about wherever you live.. If you dont, perhaps you shouldnt be living there..
And to take that to the conclusion, if ones leader doesnt believe that his ocuntry comes first, I wouldnt want him to be in office.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You need to be aware of the consequences of your actions. Ignorance is no excuse is just about a global standard. The US Department of Justice can even prosecute a US citizens that breaks US laws out side the US, even if it's legal in the country where the offense if committed. People have been arrested at airports after, "Sex Holidays", abroad. This was enacted by the Clinton Administration as a human rights act to reduce sex crimes against children abroad.
"there's no such thing as international law"
Unless someone coerced you into using it, you were not forced to do anything.
The rest of the market sends you complex formatted Microsoft Word documents and expects you to send complex formatted Word documents in return, and the market can withhold your paycheck if you refuse to use Word. So it's use Word or starve to death. How is this not coercion?
bleh
By the way, moderators, why do you waste moderator points on an off topic discussion about shoes?
As opposed to a system choked with corrupt capitalism to the point of uselessness? No thanks.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
But worse are the _retroactive_ extensions - works that are actually already public domain, are then suddenly taken away from the Public.
Only European countries re-copyrighted works whose copyright under the old term had expired. The United States and Australia, on the other hand, extended copyright but kept all works published before 1923 (in the USA's case) or whose last surviving author died before 1934 (in Australia's case) in the public domain.
(sure that hurts the industry with a legal monopoly on lawnmower copying, but is it stealing? If I buy a different lawnmower or don't use lawnmowers I also hurt them)
To continue the analogy to copyrighted works, if you buy a different lawnmower, you are buying from a rogue manufacturer who subconsciously copied the designs of the lawnmower cartel[1]. If you don't use a lawnmower, the local government slaps you down with a weed warning.
[1] Bright Tunes Music Corp. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., 420 F.Supp. 177 (SDNY 1976)
Title: Extradition : a review of Australia's law and policy / Joint Standing Committee on Treaties.
Author: Australia. Parliament. Joint Standing Committee on Treaties.
Some interesting facts and background on Australian extradition policy. Includes statistics on extraditions.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I'm an American ex-pat with permanent residency status in Oz. This gives me a somewhat unique perspective of the situation.
2 ,00.html
I don't think that Australia is necessarily trying to be an "American lap dog"; but rather the legal system here is so screwy that somehow this was allowed to happen. Witness a News story from yesterday: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12518705-124
A man murdered two women, confessed to it, and a judge considered the evidence so overwhelming that it would prejudice a jury against him, and so acquitted him. Sadly this sort of occurance is Not unusual. Rarely a week goes by without at least one major legal decision that is so arbitrary and bizarre that it boggles the mind...........
It's not that computer crime is lesser, it's that it's treated as greater.
Do you really equate this act to shooting kiddie porn or murder? There are war criminals who get away by hiding in foreign countries. The US picked up flack for invading Afghanistan to track down Usama Bin Laden, but picking up a copyright violator is a-ok?
If doesn't matter if the guy is an Australian internet pirate.
Here's how the story reads:
Guy A from country B is extradited to country C for posting stuff on the Internet that violate local laws at country C.
Now imagine for the sake of argument that guy A is an American citizen, B is USA and C is some middle eastern country that has outlawed free expression or where some books are prohibited and that the penalty is death.
Get the picture?
The US government (and much of its population) is buying into the idea that local laws should apply to anybody in the World because the Internet has global reach. They forget that this kind of rule works both ways. I wonder if American citizens would be OK with an American being extradited to Iran because he sold his copy of The Satanic Verses on eBay. On the same measure, Australias should rise up against this stupid behavior by its government.
Considering the majority of laws are laws that limit your freedom, then your personal freedom (doesn't matter if you are American or Australian or Iranian) will be what's left after all the laws in the world are applied to your case.
How does this work legally? Is it an international treaty both countries have signed? Don't know much about law, sorry, how can the US start pulling people out of other countries? Is it because this guy is breaking US copyright laws in Oz? What happens if I broke another type of US law in my country... ?
Whether he should be extradited to the United States is debatable but Warez fags should be hung by their balls for being so fricking ignorant. You want a fully loaded OS use OSS and one of the many great OS's. Don't sacrifice your ethics for a damned computer... Geez.
Brian Seppanen
Minister of Information and Propaganda
Area 54 The Secret Government Disco Labs Provo
I made no equation. I reponded to the parent, which *did* make an equation. I simply pointed out that crime is crime, and just because it is IT based has no mitigating (nor magnifying--agreed) effect.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
I remember as well (early - mid 90's) the "Scene". It was nice to be in it when you were 15 years old, but 42? Did this guy ever hear about Open Source or even Linux? The idea that all software information should be free was getting community attention during this time. To be at 2005 and still pirating proprietary software is just plain idiotic. This always bothered me, the most l337 warez boards are now sunsite and redhat.com. This man should have grew up, I don't know why he has gotten so far into it, probably something mentally wrong with that dude. All that cracking energy could have been used to improve the kernel.
If there was no monetary gain on his end I would really seriously be questioning his motive. Chinese mob connections? Death threats to stay in the scene? Man I can make a movie with all of the questions I have.
You forgot
e) Breasts!
f) CowboyNeal's relatives
Seriously, though, this *is* a political crime -- it's a crime against capitalism. The real problem with the simile is that the perpetrator was not in the country where the crime was committed, unlike what happened to the forced emigrees.
If this guy gets extradited, there's something seriously wrong with world politics. That puts the onus on the indidivual to not break any laws *outside* his own country, which is, of course, impossible. Should one get extradited to the US for publishing info on how to make a pipe bomb? How about making disparaging remarks about a Bush? Or what about posting pornography? That would get you a sentence in China, and depending on the type of pornography, in the US too. How about extraditing you to China for having more than two kids? Of course that's unreasonable, but where do you set the limit?
This is a very slippery slope, and the best thing to do is to not get on it at all. The judges should be smart enough to realise this, and not set the snowball moving.
Regards,
--
*Art
No - the part I think most people overlook is, these "warez groups" are notoriously competitive with each other, and elitist in their attitudes.
Far from simply "providing copies of hundreds of thousands of titles to basically anybody", they're extremely difficult to work with if you want them to provide you with anything.
With the massive distribution and communications power of the Internet, sure - these things leak out all over the place eventually. (If you need a particular application badly enough and have the time to spend hunting it down, you can beg and plead in numerous IRC chat rooms until someone you private message finally agrees to send the cracked version over to you, for example.) But groups like DoD weren't just running like a software charity - welcoming any and all onto high bandwidth distribution servers.
They've actually got a whole "power structure" in place, so only appointed "couriers" are even allowed to download their cracked software in the first place, and then they're only supposed to redistribute it to specific people/places that made previous arrangements/deals with their group leaders.
I agree that if you're a part of this and live/work in a country with copyright legislation in place and enforced (like the U.S.), then you better expect some punishment if you're caught. But extradition from another country for this? Like others said - truthfully, it's tough to pin an individual member of a group like this down to having done much worse than simply disabling copy protection mechanisms in code. The guys doing the cracking aren't the ones doing the actual distributing, and vice-versa. And ultimately, aren't the end-users installing this stuff the ones responsible? It'd seem pointless to prosecute everyone who cracked a piece of software if nobody was bothering to download it and install it afterwards, instead of just buying it instead.
So much for being protected by the queen... Now the poor guy will end up in a US Fedral Pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
usually less niggers in the federal system, and that's a plus in any neighborhood.
So... what are you arguing against, if you don't like semantic games? Let's look...(from parent):
You have to love how they demonize everyone by using labels like "gang of internet pirates"
"Gang" and "pirate" both have specific, rather loaded meanings. Teh intarnet just makes it sound current, edgy and like consumer-consumer communication is new and stuff, and must be suppressed for the good of buggy-whip makers everywhere.
If you want to defend attacks on copyright infringers, a great place to start would be comparing them to other white-collar crime (because that's what this is), and explain how defrauding thousands for millions is less bad than copying music. Really, go compare punishments (and by this I mean civil settlements as well as penalties - compare the reparations with the putative deprivation from interested parties). After all, we have a rational legal system, right?
I realize that is a digression, but I don't think it is a herring, red or otherwise. Liquidating the company's retirement plan to prop up quarterly profit wins you a slap, and distributing music should bankrupt you instead?
Oh, wait - bankruptcy is now only for the rich.
I forget what 8 was for.
don't have kids
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
"Crime is Crime"
Just exactly what the hell does that mean? I hear that quite a bit. Are you saying that all crimes are equivalent? Obvious nonsense. If not, just what are you saying?
"just because it is IT based has no mitigating (nor magnifying--agreed) effect."
Sure it does, unless you attach the same (or less) value to human life as you do money and property --- which appears to be a growing trend.
Perhaps they are afraid that the US will invade them if they don't comply?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
It means "Crime is crime, and just because it is IT based has no mitigating (nor magnifying--agreed) effect."
If I steal your wallet, it is a crime (theft). If I steal money from your back account via a hack or internet scam, it is a crime (theft).
I did not write that all crimes are equivalent, that came from your imagination. My point was and is that the same crime committed "in person" or via IT is equivalent.
Further, certain property crimes are no less devastating than assaultive crimes in terms of having permanent, life-altering effects on the victim. As far as I am concerned, bilking a widow out of here life savings and leaving her destitute should be a capital crime, for the perpetrator is no less an unredeemable sociopath than a serial killer. To warehouse said perpetrator in prison for the rest of his life has no value to society and serves only to drain resources better spent elsewhere. He will never contribute anything of value, has no redeeming qualities, so why should his life be preserved?
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
Eh? hushhush.com looks to be an escort service in North Carolina.
as if the world needed another reason - boycott anything and everything American, if you don't want to boycott, then just refuse to pay for it. Just say no to The Land of Lies and The Home of Hypocrisy. We know Americans don't care what we think, and we couldn't care less what Americans say about any issue.
The UK will now extradite to America on request without any need to prove anything.
This law has been used to extradite both Terror and Warez suspects alike.
Seems more and more like the 51st state
Indeed. Too bad we don't have people who can judge whether extradition is suitable on a case-by-case basis...
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
My point was and is that the same crime committed "in person" or via IT is equivalent.
I won't argue with that. Why didn't you say so in the first place instead of being vague?
He will never contribute anything of value, has no redeeming qualities, so why should his life be preserved?
And who are you (or anyone else) to judge that someone will never contribute anything of value or that they have no redeeming qualities? His life should be preserved for several reasons. One of the most important reasons is redemption. People change. It is entirely possible that he might someday turn into a good person. Who knows, he may someday save your life. Isn't that worth something?
It's always amusing to watch somebody not from the United States pull out the "executed" line.
Not that I defend everything our country does, but we do not execute most of our murderers and/or rapists. IANAL, so I don't know exactly what determines whether or not the prosecution will seek the death penalty (it has something to do with premeditation, intent, and how much you can pay your lawyers, I believe), but very few people are executed in the US every year. For example, last year, 59 inmates were executed.
Don't get me wrong - I think that executing anyone damages who we are (and I know this puts me in the minority here in the US). It's just that we're not as primitive as many people like to think we are.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
i remember trying a beta of 95, likely theirs, it didn't work, my drive was kerboshed, and i lost all my old ANSi drawings and emails pre 94ish.
When something done in one country has an effect in another country, the courts of the affected country often will have jurisdiction to hear matters related. For example, if someone in Australia shot an arrow into the United States and hurt someone, the US could ask for them to be extradited. That this was an economic crime rather than a homicide doesn't make much difference as far as this principle is concerned.
This isn't something done by the US alone; if you are seriously bored (and have serious fortitude), take a look at some of the EU's competition (aka antitrust) regulations that have forbidden companies wholly outside of the EU from merging because of the 'effect' it would have on competition inside the EU.
Antitrust regulations are a cause for much debate in the international community in terms of whether a country can assert that kind of power on persons and corporations outside of its borders. Of less debate (though still debated when it comes to some legal areas) are criminal issues like the one in the article.
"European misadventures 1. Crusades, 2. Colonialism, 3. WWI, 4. WWII, -American 'misadventures' are basically cleaning up after those messes"
-Korean War
-Vietnam
-Iraq v1
-Iraq v2
-Meddling in Argentina, Afghanistan, Pre-war Iraq, Cuba, amongst others.
Take your head outta your ass.
The reach of the Corporate dominated U.S. Civil and Criminal Court systems is totally out of control.
Copyright infringement should be a strictly civil case, but the media giants have decided to get rough. We should indeed get rough back. For example, while I'm not downloading I refuse to purchse music or video, or even buy new software. What I need I turn to GPL sources for.
If more people did this and really put the hurt on maybe we wouldn't be dominated by corporate fictions.
"usually less niggers in the federal system, and that's a plus in any neighborhood."
Sorry, but there are actually a lot of blacks in Fed joints.
I speak from experience.
But I do agree with you, that the fewer blacks, the better.
If they would quit doing drive-by shootings, and playing loud car stereos, I might not feel this way. But the reality is, many of
them act like savages, and make the world a more dangerous and unpleasant place to be in.
"People change. It is entirely possible that he might someday turn into a good person. Who knows, he may someday save your life. Isn't that worth something?"
Someday, Kim Jong Il *might* become a benevolent humanitarien. Isn't that worth something?
Someday, Josef Mengele *might* have discovered a cure for cancer. Isn't that worth something?
Someday, Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah *might* become a philanthropist and use his fortune for the betterment of mankind. Isn't that worth something?
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
it won't be acheived by the UN, the EC, or NATO, but by one sided treaty agreements with the US.
There's nothing funny about rape. No matter who the victim is. It's still reality that it happens. By some estimates, more often in prison than outside.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
So then he can instead gain the respect of wonderfull people like you, right?
Panama is part of North America, not South America. See the continent maps.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Too bad we don't have people who can judge whether extradition is suitable on a case-by-case basis...
ALL of us get to judge whether it is or isn't suitable. Refusing to do so on the basis that someone else is paid to make an actual decision would be the height of moral cowardice.
If you can come up with a convincing reason as to why an Austrlian citizen should be extradited based on allegations of acts performed entirely within Australia then I'll be impressed.
If the acts were illegal in Australia then he should be tried there, where he's alleged to have committed the acts, where he's familiar with the culture and the legal system and where he isn't a foreigner to the jury.
If the acts weren't illegal in Australia then it should be contrary to public policy to exdradite one of their citizens for performing those acts in Australia.
The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
When the going get's tough for the U.S. in legal
matters, it's ok to ignore protocol by dropping the rules alltogther.Here's a classic example. www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0310-04.htm
No you mean boycotting : ETATS-UNIANS Product.
.... Good job pissing us off too.
...
... Because there a bunch of coward.
And thats not a problem they make absolutely NONE Whatsoever.
Americans Movie are made By Real American : Mexican and Canadian , etc
American songs : Are Made By Canadian , Brezilian , Mexican , Columbian , etc , Again wrong target.
Coke and Pepsi are made inside the Country your In , your just putting your citizens job at risk. Really bright to attack your own
Nike or Addidas are made in third world country good job killing the salary of the provider of the entire small town there, yes hitting on the poor is always helping when attacking the Etats-Unians.
You really whant to fuck with them its simple , make a cheaper and better product and go sell it in the US with full warranty and service so that they have to close shop and loose there job.
Make an Electric car and refuse to sell it to them.
Refuse to do business with them and have UN impose sanction on tyhem for there illegal war , not just in Irak but all over the world , there is absolutely no need for the CIA , its just a Government terrorist sanctionned group who dont even protect its country agains the enemy they trained themself.
Start a Wall-Mart where all the price are lower then those offered at Wallmart and have your government subsidize the sales for a while.
Ask your Fund Manager to drop the US dollars and invest it in Canadian Money or the Euro , because the US dollars is a lame duck which dont make you enough return on investment.
Dont travel to Florida , Las Vegas , or Disney.
Instead go to locally or in Canada , you dont get the risk of getting shot or insulted by a red neck.
And the most important of all : Always tell the Etats-Unians that its not because they are "OF america" that they are the american. real American live in a democracy : The United States is a republic. a Big Banana Republic.
And if you got ball ask your Gov to say The Etats-unians are a worlwide threat they have 100 time the weapon of mass destruction everyone else as and they use them often on there own and on others
The American misadventures you listed were all *explonentially* smaller in scale than european misadventures. The fact that America avoids causing death on a global scale is something of note.
Are you trying to make some kind of point with that? Or are you advocating that people should forfeit their lives for even the tiniest little infraction?
All your hackerz are belong to U.S.
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
BTW, the Germans have it good: the constitution provides that German citzens can under no circumstances be extradited to another country.
...talk about the "Long Arm of the Law"
Looks like those arms have fully embraced the entire planet now. *spooky*
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
This makes me mad , how bloody ironic is that the US can make Australia extradite its own citizens for "Copyright Infringement", yet the US wont even sign (and is bribing other countries not to as well) the treaty for the International Criminal court that would allow prosecution of War crimes and wouldn't even require countries to extradite to it if there own legal systems could handle the alleged crime.., Bloody Howard (I am currently living in NZ and I am starting to actually like NZ's socialist overlords in comparison) someone needs to give Costello the keys to a bus ..
Whoever controls the present controls the past, whoever controls the past controls the future
I am tired of having to explain everything. If you can't see the connection, then forget it.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
I hardly think IT crime is "out of sight, out of mind" among /. denizens.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
"The term 'hacker' and the term 'pirate' are both wrong even though they have entered into common usage and were introduced as a deliberate ploy."
I seem to recall that we computer hobbyists referred to ourselves as hackers with some pride back in the '70s, but maybe I'm getting old and my memory is getting fuzzy. I certainly don't recall what the deliberate ploy was, nor what we had in mind when we devised it; perhaps I missed the planning meeting, does someone have minutes?
"To call someone a pirate indicates theft even though none took place."
Rather than 'theft' (which is an obviously wrong term), what about 'illegal aquisition'? Makes sense now, doesn't it? I'd say the bias is in your perception, since the dictionary doesn't use the word 'theft' as part of that definition of pirate. You're the one who invoked the word, and then proceeded to put it in the mouths of others; I don't claim to know what everyone else in the world thinks when they hear a particular word, which is why I refer to the dictionary and use the standard definition.
"...they use the media (who love a little spin) to quote them saying 'pirate' and next thing you know everyone is saying that."
Which is exactly the point you missed: the word pirate in this context predates the mass media, the **AAs are merely making use of a pre-existing definiton (unless you're suggesting that the **AAs have sent someone back in time; they have surprising powers, but I wasn't aware that was one of them). Besides, they were using the term 10 years ago, it's just that because there were no highly visible P2P networks with millions of files you as an individual had less chance of being affected, so you didn't pay attention . It's funny how sudden personal danger makes people more aware of things that have always been there.
"Hacker sounds so much more criminal than someone circumventing security measures."
If they were deliberately going for spin (rather than mindlessly parroting the word used erroneously as the title of a movie), wouldn't the correct word 'cracker' be better because of its long association with code breaking and opening safes? Poor golf players are also known as hackers, but there's no criminal overtone in that...
"It is the norm in Pakistan to beat your wife and children but that does not make it right."
You're comparing the use of the word pirate to beating your wife and children? And you're accusing the media of loving spin?? At least they don't equate serious personal assault (sometimes murder) with trivial word games.
"Just because it is the norm for the plebs to think of people that infringe copyright as pirate...does not make it correct."
So we shouldn't refer to people who park in handicapped spaces as "selfish jerks" because it makes them sound evil, we should call them "illegally parked" since they aren't depriving anyone of anything permanently? We should call litterers "unauthorized disposers of refuse"? We should call pot-heads "unauthorized self-administers of illicit substances"? I'm just trying to establish where your boundaries are for the use of slang terms, and whether your objections are based on personal politics rather than legal or linguistic correctness.
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal: I'll support your call to cease the use of the word 'pirate', if you agree that the term 'copying over a network' is correct and that 'file sharing' is nothing but euphemistic spin (look up the definition of 'share': it mentions 'apportion', 'divide', 'have part stake in', and others, but nowhere does it mention 'produce an exact duplicate').
Blank until
Arrrghhh.
Great... now you've slashdotted hushhush.com....
Does this mean that if, for example, I say something on the Internet critical of Islam, I can be extradited to Saudi Arabia? The only law thay should apply should be the law of the person's domicile, which, in this case, is Australia.
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
Hey go and ask a Russian about cleaning up ww2, the US did lots of good but Russia did most of it.
CIA Factbook 2002 (US):"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households
please repeat after me: copying is not theft.
for theft, i must take something from you, and you must no longer have it. if i steal your CD, that's theft. if i copy your CD, that's not theft. it might be illegal in some countries (not in Canada where i live) but it is not theft.
"interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud."
-- U.S. Supreme Court, Dowling vs. United States
So disagreeing is communism? Fine then, ignorance is strength, and war is peace. It's people like you that give the anti-**aa/BSA/M$ sentiment fuel for giving us unwarranted names that don't accurately show the nature of the person you are criticising most of the time.
The example you listed is false because when you pirate music, movies, or software, you have not deprived the person of the use of the product, unlike your example where you have clearly been guilty of theft.
This is legal fact, not moral opinion, or justfication.
"Disobeying is Disobeying" is, I believe, the reasoning in their heads. Crime, to them, no matter how small, is like disobeying your dad. Doesn't matter how much or how little (except when the punishment comes around), what dad says is what goes. Period. No backtalk.
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
freedom is the only way, yeah!
Hey, Regardless of what he did or did not do we should all stand behind him. Offer our support and I do not mean provide money. It is not my decision to decide if his actions were illegal. But being extradited for this is ridiculous, where does it end now ? As we are part of the IT community we should spread the word and start boycotting American products and revenue streams. Michael.
Linux: For those able to think out side of a window
About five years ago or so, there was a reduced-type (but unabridged) edition of the 20-volume OED for only (!) $300. I assume it's still being produced.
How many letters are on a Pirates Keyboard? Two. Escape, and RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!
What about extraditing public school children who have photos posted on the internet of them wearing crosses while in school to France (a stretch). Or maybe to Iran (slightly less of a stretch, I think)? I don't think as many people will care about Hefner being sent to Saudi Arabia for porn as will care about their children being extradited over religion.
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
Lets play this back and follow the bouncing ball.
Forget that the movie industry's malappropriation of the name for this practice. A guy who never left his garret apartment in whereever in Kangaroo land while 'conspiring to do this whatever act', is arrested by his own nation's police. This man is an Australian and never was anything else. When this is all over, he or what is left of him will still be an Australian. Now he is to be taken to a country foriegn to him, and to which he has never gone or had anything to do with in any way. He is going to be subject to a legal system that is totally foreign to his experience, and is going to tried for 'acts that may or may not be legal in Australia'. This arrogation of extraterritoriality by a foreign power of a citizen of a supposedly sovereign state for what amounts to a political 'crime' is unethical and just plain wrong. The bouncing ball started earlier. Much earlier! With each new act like
this and like the Sklyarov Affair when Dmitry Sklyarov was punished in California and forced to agree to a shameful 'contract' just to spare him further persecution so he could get out of the police state that the United States has become, we go further down a slippery slope. What do we say later when people in this country who publicly speak out against excessive Chinese penetration of our retail sector start to disappear only to pop up in Chinese courtrooms tried on charges of 'anti Chinese agitation'. We have no moral authority to prevent this. Even now we are extraditing folks to foriegn lands for such rediculous things as 'holocaust denying'. This is just plain dumb. If foreign citizens are not safe in their own homes from oppression by agents our government at the behest of monopoly interests, then how safe are we in our homes against persecution by alien powers that may have other axes to grind.
you are not a lawyer.
you obviously haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.
kindly STFU before you make a bigger fool of yourself.
that is all.
I couldn't agree more.
The rich are waging war on the poor.
What is really surprising is that his lawyer was not able to block extradition based upon the current US foreigner laws i.e. under current US law he is entitled to nothing and while within the US he is treated as a NON-CITIZEN (specifically a citizen of no country at all), not entitled to any legal representation, not entitled to any legal protections, basically at the mercy of the US government and losing all of his rights and protections as a Australian citizen as soon as he enters the United States (as the United States has utterly failed to provide for legal protection for citizens of any country via treaty when they implemented the foreigner laws). Well I guess you get the legal representation you pay for, perhaps he needs a more astute lawyer.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Now that the son is out of the picture, I'll be thinking of the mother.
Mwuahahahaha!
Bill Gates [the chief software architect of Microsoft Corporation] ... decides to add features to Windows and Word so that you choose to use them over Linux and Open Office.
I'll become satisfied when one of the features that Mr. Gates's team adds to Microsoft Word is a well-documented default save format. It's not the features; it's the lack of features.
He and his kind are providing cracked replacement software for those products made by companies *REQUIRING* activation that almost never works.
Mr. Griffiths, you are our hero in disguise!!