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How Feasible is a Cash-Less Society?
"Think about this: if the cumulative value of everything in the world were expressed in measures of gold, which theoretically backs the majority of world currencies, does enough gold physically exist to back the paper money value, or has the paper money itself become valuable?
And what about this: how is it that the people who depend upon cash are usually in the middle of the financial spectrum, neither the poorest nor the richest? In most extreme poverty situations, transactions are based on barter. For most middle class people and above, transactions involve checks, credit, and electronic fund transfers. For the working poor, most transactions are done in cash. How does all of this add up to the trend toward a cash-less society, where money is nothing more than numbers in a computer transferred from one account to another, to another? How far off is that future?"
Those bastards at Steak-n-Shake will never switch to accepting non-cash methods of payment.
I like cash. I also like paper. I'll bet i'm not the only one.
When it comes right down to it - there are a lot of intangibles that using cash provides - plus, is it really faster to swipe, enter a PIN and wait for authorization, than it is to get $2.15 change from a 5?
Me thinks not.
There are 01 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and me.
I couldn't imagine basing my life on cards and checks. I don't own a checking account. I don't own a savings account. I go to the bank that my employer draws their checks on and cash them. I pay for everything in cash. I keep everything I have in cash (I have $25,000 in cash at home right now in fact) and I pay my bills by Money Order and Cashier's Check.
In the event that I must purchase something online, I use a relatives debit card. Since I don't need to use a credit card that often, it doesn't make much sense to give the banks and everyone else more credit history to watch and track my life by -- and my relative doesn't mind since I keep their debit card balance above float for them.
As long as you aren't also using a SafeWay Club Card or something similar to allow your local grocer to track how many times you buy tampons each week and how many Mountain Dews you drink, then I think you're relatively safe... but still... no cash?
It's called "post-secondary education". They take all your money for tuition, and you live cash-less for many years. It's not as great as you make it out to be!
When the lower class sorts (you know, Joe Sixpack and friends) amuse themselves, cash often plays a part. You can't stick a dollar bill in a stripper's thong with a debit card, you can't buy marijuana with a credit card, pool games take quarters, and most bars only take cash.
Remember, just becuase you live online and buy porn online doesn't mean Joe Sixpack does.
When I need to go to a movie theater or to a fast food restaurant, and in amusment parks and the like. On one hand it is very convenient, but on the other, if you have a check card or credit card, a lot more is at stake if it gets stolen. I like the ATM/Debit approach, you need a pin to make purchases. It's practially useless though, for most places that would just take Check Card or credit card, and of course there is no secure way to do this sort of thing on line. I have been wondering for a while how the problem of on-line shopping security could be handled. Throw away numbers used for one purchase only each comes to mind. Anyone have experience with this?
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Especially when I lived in Washington, DC, I would run into stores which didn't take cash. Apparently they just got held up too much. So currency is far from risk-free.
Still, I use cash a fair bit because it still seems resistent to many of the *other* risks (stolen credit card numbers and all that stuff).
The only time I use my debit/ATM card for actual purchases is when buying on-line.
For all other purposes I withdraw cash - from as many random ATM's as I can manage.
I'll continue to do so until I receive an absolute guarantee from my bank that my purchasing habits are completly private.
And, of course, there are some things that plastic just can't buy...
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Not becouse I have to, rather becouse I want to.
Not everyone needs to know my spending habits.
Cash still spends very well for a number of things and I would hate for that not to be an option.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
It not only requires faith in the system it demands it. No longer will you have the option on whether or not to have faith in the financial system. Under such a society you will no longer have access to your wealth in any tangible form stripping you of yet another form of personal empowerment. If the government or a company says you owe them money they will more than likely find a way to access your financies without your authorization, and be able to keep records of every financial transaction that occurs in society making 'undesireables' very easy to track.
get my M&M's from the vending machines? Yeah, I've seen the commercial where the woman in some Italian town uses her cell phone (I think) to order a bottle of water from a machine while some old guy receives a dirty look from a nun while he tries to sneak a few coins from the fountain. But realistically how far away is that scenario?
We have to remember that money as we know it sort of evolved. It went from physical gold and other backing, to gold (and other backing) stored in banks with bank notes holding them, to paper whose only value is defined by the government issuing it, with no backing. Modern debit cards and checks are just bank notes that represent money that doesn't really represent anything other than the fact that it is money. We already are cashless, people just seem to want this state to be computerized... Well, realistically it is... I mean, a lot of the stuff we buy we never phyiscally move money around to pay for. Actual cash is just another representation of this, why get rid of it? If people stop carrying around cash on their own, I'm sure that less will actually be issued, but why make a big deal of this transition, when it will just occur naturally (if it occurs at all).
Yeah, right. Tell that to the pockets I've worn out carrying loose change!
Not likely to happen. There's nothing worse than being stuck in a shop queue behind some idiot buying some item for a footling amount of money and paying for it with their credit/debit card. So you have to wait while they go through the whole rigmarole of swiping the card through the maching, waiting for the printout, signing it, etc...
Yawn!
Short of having chip implants or barcode tattoos ("And no man may buy or sell save that he have the mark of the beast..") it's just often far, far more convenient to have hard cash on your person.
"Information wants to be paid"
What with plastic and direct deposit, we've moved quite a ways away from cash already.
The need for cash only resides at the lower end of the financial spectrum. Homeless folks, cash & carry shoppers, and illegal immigrants are about the only ones who really need physical currency. The rest of us would do well to avoid all that.
It isn't like gold backs up the dollar anyway. The value of the dollar is tied to the ephemeral "American economy" whose status is always debatable. Whether it's paper money or metal money or a series of ones and zeroes in the bank's computer, it's all the same. Any one of those mediums can be wiped out easily, so it doesn't behoove anyone to hoard the physical stuff.
> it's no less theft-proof...it just takes a theif of a different calibur to pull it off
That's like saying steel is no less melt-proof than butter; it just takes a different temperature to pull it off.
...please, continue to use your credit cards and cheques.
I like cash because I don't care to receive any more spam in my snail-mail inbox than I already do. I particularly like cash for black market purchases...kinda difficult with credit cards. Also, if you like avoiding all the troubling paperwork of paying income taxes on that $20 that you got for mowing the neigbor's lawn, cash is good.
Can any of you imagine having to set up a paypal account when you are 13 years old just so you can get paid by the guy down the street for mowing his lawn?
Cash ain't goin nowhere...
"Money will always be paper...but gold will always be gold..." -- Hudson Hawk...Mayflower...
"Reality" in financial terms is a 1:1 trade of value. X number of pigs for Y pounds of grain, for example. Barter.
Barter became unwieldy, so there came to be used "valuable" pieces of metal that represented the value of physical objects.
Then valuable metal became scarce, so we came to use pieces of paper that represented metal stored in a fort somewhere.
After a while, the paper was valuable just for the idea, and there was no longer a need to back it with gold.
Then, because the pieces of paper were unwieldy, we came to create bank accounts where we could write one piece of paper (a check) to represent several of the formerly gold-backed pieces of paper.
Then people got tired of carrying around pieces of paper, so they replaced it with single pieces of plastic that could be used multiple times.
But pieces of plastic had to be used in person, so when people wanted to buy something from Amazon.com, all they needed to use was the number.
Our entire financial lives can be reduced to a meaningless string of numbers. That's a far cry from bringing your pigs or cheese or grains or whatever to the market.
Got Rhinos?
...the Board of Directors of VA Linux.
The thing i worry about in a cashless society is that once you have the centralized system to deal with clearing the transaction, people are going to extract marketing data. The government is going to look at your purchasing habits and decide that some people have similar purchasing habits too far to one or the other side of the political spectrum, and are too much of a threat to middle class suburban normalcy and should be liquidated.
Also that means that if they _suspect_ you of selling/using drugs, they can freeze your finances completely. It gives _way_ too much control to somebody else, based on politics, purchasing habits, etc... It makes my skin crawl.
P.S.
I don't think many (any?) major economic powers even _pretend_ to back their currency with anything real anymore, let alone gold.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
I don't know.. not having paper money would make a serious hit to all my favorite illegal activities. How many hookers do you know that carry around a credit card machine? (just swipe your card ..zip.. right here)
And what am I supposed to use to snort my coke?
Ratguy
I think one thing that has to be done is speed up the debit card process. It takes so long to approve a transaction.
But we're backwards compatible. :)
Go to the bank and get 10 sackajwea dollar coins. Use them in your day to day operations. I'll guarantee it will raise an eyebrow or two.
By the same token, how many people are getting the 50-state quarters with the intent of never spending them? (I am.)
You're already seeing that cash is unnecessary in todays society, now you're seeing that society start to 'collect' money as an oddity.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
The only thing that I use cash for is vending machines.
With any luck, future vending machines will take visa...
I like having a monthly summary of how much I've spent,
where I spent it, and when I spent it. It makes planning
easier and more realistic.
*sigh* back to work...
I don't know if this happens other places or not, but it seems that in columbus, OH you have to pay cash at liquor agencies. The real question is: how will anyone score some herb if there's no cash? Will the dealers start taking paypal? :
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
For most of my major purchases, I prefer using credit cards, online payments, etc. I provides an extra level of security and tracability to my transactions.
However, I still like to carry a little cash around for emergencies. For example, I was in a store the other day when the phones went out. No one could make any payments by credit card or debit card. I, on the other hand, was able to buy my items using the high-tech $5 bill in my pocket.
Also, the more common electronic transactions are, the more security for them we will ahve to have, and the more infrastructure we need as well. If every soda machine were to take credit cards, every machine would need a separate phone line to contact the different credit card services. I personally thing that we don't have the infrastructure in place to handle this at this time.
grylnsmn
How the hell am I supposed to pay the chinese food delivery guy without cash? I don't think wireless networking is secure enough for Kwong Fat to start proccessing my Visa from his car.
Th
When McDonalds starts accepting credit/debit, I think we'll pretty much be there. I eat at McD's maybe twice a year, so it's no big deal to me anyway.
Fast food and race registrations (where I didn't pre-register) are the only places I ever use cash any more. Even my small-town pizza joint accepts credit now. Personally I don't even own a credit card. Just a checking account card with a mastercard logo on it.
I will never give up cash for 100&. Giral money is tracable, while cash money is not. A government can classify anything to be subversive, so there goes your spending freedom. No, I do not trust gouvernments... I want my freedom, privacy and anonymity, I'll use cash!
Bizar technology?
For insufflated drugs, accept no substitutes.
Yes, we are heading in the direction of a cashless society, which is nice and convenient---if you choose to have a trackable identity, and if you fit in and embrace all the rules and restrictions.
I remember when I was reading a lot of Ayn Rand where she spoke of gold as being an objective standard of value and that when we started moving to paper currency (and now e-currency) that we are losing something..... although what I am too burnt out to remember.
I guess it's just a little scary to think that our future monetary unit could be made of nothing but ether, and the value of which is determined by some accountant in the murky bowels of some bureacracy.
I don't think there's much we can do to stop it.
After all, isn't it nice to pay for gas with a credit/bank card, rather than having to go in, wait on line and talk to the guy behind the counter?
dkap.info
It has been a very long time since gold underwrote a nations currency.
:-)
In the UK old paper money use to state that it could be explicitlly changed into gold. That was removed. Of course in the Us it's far more accurate 'in god we trust'
As for just getting rid of paper money, it will happen as money becomes more and more worthless, it costs something to produce money and foil counterfitting. When the costs of producing money exceed it's value then things will change.
A far more wide ranging, and debateable, issue is that in an educated society why do the majority of people still bother with money at all? It's just pieces of paper!
I don't think it will happen anytime soon. Look at the fees banks charge now for different types of transaction. Some charge on a POS transaction basis. Withouthard cash, what to stop them from increases the fees and adding new fees? Nothing. I know of several business (restaurants) that only take cash. For a business owner, it is the best thing, you always know you'll have the momey from the customer because they give it to either before, during, or a very short period after they receive the good(s) or service(s).
Now everone has the abily to use checks, or even check cards. This doesn't include stuff like garage sales. The fees to do the transactions alone would make them worthless. Then you'd have to go back to bartering when you at a garage sale.
I don't see a cashless society a good idea right now. Too much corprate greed.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
In a Jack Vance story, one world had no use for money. They traded goods based on a person's strakh, roughly similar to personality, prestige, karma, etc. The way to improving one's strakh was to excel in one's craft or trade, and by wisely choosing who received the product of one's labors.
Good trades, that is providing excellent products to "customers" of high strakh, would increase both parties' prestige.
Naturally, to an outsider, this gift economy had rules that were nearly incomprehensible. And breaking those rules, even accidentally, could lead to grave personal danger.
Anyway, the name of the story is "Moon Moth".
A dingo ate my sig...
Cash is the paranoid AC's way of buying porn, weed, and JD Salinger books...
We'll go to a National ID card. Then people will get sick of carrying three+ cards, so we'll consolidate to one card with your personal info and your financial info. After a while, it'll be found out that this makes identity theft WAY too easy, so we'll start implanting them into our skin. From there, I dunno. Retna scanning? My question to the /. crowd is this: how long will it take to implement all of this (well, up to the implanted-int-skin part)?
and I think it was Nixon who took us off the silver standard so now the only thing that gives our dollor any value is the economy, which is based on the peoples' confidence, so we basicly say that the money is worth somthing because it is.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Over the last six months I have made an effort to pay for as much as a can with cash. For groceries, gas, books, and gear, I whip out my wallet and throw down as many twenties as I need. Its has a few nice benefits.
1) I stay in my budget. I take out cash when I get paid, and know exactly how much I have to spend until my next pay check.
2) I get less junk mail. No more grocery store fliers, no more technical junk, jut good ol' mail. Coincidence? I think not.
3) People who provide services for me (yoga, karate, acupuncture, housing, servers, etc) get instant payment, and can do what they want with it, including not reporting taxes. This makes them happy.
I only use credit cards when I absolutely need to, and am much happier for it.
The middle mind speaks!
moreover, some people rely on cash to survive, like beggars and very poor people : these people would not be allowed to get a credit card or check books, mostly because they have no address.
Finally, there has to be a way to be able to pay for something anonymously. It is necessary in a free society.
Keep cash alive ! :-)
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I don't even have to use quarters for laundry anymore. I have a card that I put into the machine. If the card runs out, I hook it up to another one and refill it.
I'm going to handle cash right up until the laundromat's washing machines accept my credit card. Cash's only value is in being changed into quarters.
Co-founder of GerbilMechs
I live in Ontario Canada, and everywhere i go, i can pay with interact, its very rare to find a store that doesnt have to option to pay by debit. Even some pizza joints have wireless debit machines, so when they deliver a pizza, you have the option to pay by debit. I expect to see the wireless debit machines poping up all over, especailly in taxis. Come to think of it, i dont really need to carry cash at all unless im going out to the bar.
I have a credit card but I rarely use its credit function. It also has bank card function (I'm not sure if debit card means this; I'm not from the US) that I can use in shops, restaurants, movies and practically everywhere. The money gets transfered from my account in real time so I don't have to remember if I have money on my account or not. If my account is dry, the card doesn't work.
It's also safer to use. If I lose it or it gets stolen I can disable it at once by calling a 24/7 toll-free number. Furthermore, I can set a ceiling for daily/monthly withdrawals. Also if it is used to buy stuff in excess of $50 the dealer is required to ask for an official ID (=drivers license or a passport).
I do all my banking as well as manage my stock portfolio via the net. I don't miss cash.
The future where the society is completely cash less is already here...kind of. I know lots of people who take out cash maybe once a month because certain places or things need cash. For example, you're thirsty and go to a coke machine. Unless you have a dollar on you, there's no way you can get the coke. But for almost everything else from pay phones (Bell Quick change cards) to paying bills to grocery shopping is done almost entirely cash free, by most people. There are of course some people who prefer to use cash.
Even the working poor use debit cards. With banks having deals where you pay a monthly charge for unlimited debit usage it makes sense. Especially people who keep strong financial records, it's much easier to get an account history at the end of the month instead of having to manually keep track of things. This is especially helpful to people on social assistance or disability where the government wants to know how the money is being used. Having a bank record is easier to manage and more believable than written accounts with recipts.
Finally the best part is, if someone steals money from your debit account, the bank will give it back to you. If someone steals your wallet, there's nothing you can do to get it back!
i really don't carry much cash. it's a running joke amongst friends. but, i don't have a visa but i use amex regularly. what is particularly anoying is all of the cards. i want one card--or ring as the case may be--to bind all of my cards together. they are accounts, not cards. when this begins to happen the cash-less society will begin. it is all symbolic and arbitrary anyway... as if we can pretend to live in a society and not be identified! get over it.
Credit/Debit make it too easy to spend money you don't have, or shouldn't be spending. Checks are an annoyance to me, and everyone in line behind me.
As was already pointed out, it doesn't reduce theft, as we all know about identity theft, which generally includes some sort of credit scams. It doesn't even reduce physical theft. As a society becomes more dependant on everyone having credit acards, they will be even less likely to check signatures, making felonious purchases with stolen credit cards easily.
I use cash for everything except monthly bills, which I pay by check. I admit I have one credit card, for the small amount of mail order shopping I do, but for daily living, I want and need cash.
I don't want anyone to be able to track me through my weekend, to find out what bars I frequent, restaraunts I patronize, or groceries I buy.
Checks are terribly inconvenient, credit/debit are too convenient, and both are totally invasive of my privacy. Cash it is for me.
I can see it now...my kid comes to sell chocolates for school and is lugging a debit card device...oh yeah, he also takes credit cards now.
Better buy that 3 mile extension cord I've always been meaning to get.
...gold, which theoretically backs the majority of world currencies,
Gold does not back up currency. This is a myth left over from days long ago when gold was currency.
The value of currency comes from the purchasing power of the nation that issued said currency. If currency were indeed backed by gold, why would some countries have higher inflation rates than others? Trust me, there definately is not enough gold in existence to cover the amount of money that exists in the world financial market. Currency is only a small part of that market to facilitate very small consumer transactions.
Here in Belgium, we have a system called "Proton". It is used for really small transactions, say anything less than 10 euro or so. It is a card with a chip on it, and you can charge it to a maximum of about 120 euro at an ATM machine. When you pay with it afterwards, you no longer require to enter a PIN code. This system is handy for small transactions, because this way you don't need to fiddle with change, and you don't have to wait for the bank to authorise a debit card after you enter your PIN.
More here. Yep, has as much relevance to this topic as this one has to a non-US reader like me.
Can someone explain the "hot grits" thing?
caliber
n.
1.Abbr. cal.
a.The diameter of the inside of a round cylinder, such as a tube.
b.The diameter of the bore of a firearm, usually shown in hundredths or thousandths of an inch and expressed in writing or print in terms of a decimal
fraction:.45 caliber.
c.The diameter of a large projectile, such as an artillery shell, measured in millimeters or in inches.
2.Degree of worth; quality: a school of high caliber; an executive of low caliber.
Sheesh.
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
To live in a cashless society, we need to completely stop using cash.
In that vain, I ask that you all please send me all of your cash and I will make certain that you are never bothered by it again...
I do everything the voices in my head tell me to...
Considering that most cashless transactions impose some sort of transaction charge, I patently refuse to accept a cash-only society until these sorts of electronic money services are free. Otherwise, you'd be paying some sort of X% tax on every 'cashless' transaction you make. I prefer cash, if only for this reason alone. (Nevermind that the tangible quality of real cash is an important part of appreciating your hard earned money.)
"Old man yells at systemd"
While it is worthwhile for the government to regulate the amount of money available through monetary instruments and fiscal policy, it seems pointless in our day and age for the government to continue to track the quality of trillions of pieces of paper.
Note that this is not simply a domestic issue - numerous other nations use the greenback for their currency, so this creates a huge bloated government apparatus that is completely unnecessary.
With a cashless society you would be leaving an electronic trail where ever you go. You couldn't buy an Ice Cream cone without the gov't or the marketing dept of mega corporations knowing about it. I think I would like the option of keeping my life a little more private. At this point you might as well start carrying a tracking device with you.
mark
My Weblog
But utterly unlikely.
People here have pointed out the lack of the touted paperless office. I'd like to add this thought to that: People have been trying since the 70's (at least) to get rid the penny. Check your pockets for the success factor there.
People stop using things when they become useless. No amount of marketing by "eMoney" companies or wishful thinking by self-professed "geeks" will make it go away.
324006
um no...
the gold standard broke down after the first world war.
...where everywhere you go you can use a debit card. Bars, Fast-food joints, computer shops, video stores, pawn shops, sidewalk fairs, casinos, car dealerships, you name it, they take Interac. The one or two exceptions to this are shocks, and are slowly disappearing. The only time I've had to use cash was at Robins Donuts last week, since they're to cheap to put in a machine. Oh, and to score some smack.
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
With MS Money and Quicken, the use of checks is even invalid. I never write a check for my bills. You can setup Money & Quicken to pay all your normal bills automatically (whether that means pay online, or sending out a check). Its automatic, and I don't need to worry about the checks, just have to make sure the money is available, and as long as I put in all my deposits on time, the software can warn me the money isn't available and it won't send out the check. Paying bills has never been easier.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Resist a cashless society!
Using Credit or Debit is good, when you're tracking your expenses for budget purposes. It's handy receiving a monthly statement detailing your purchases.
Every now and again you might want to buy something without The Bank, The Credit Company, Your Boss, whomever, finding out. So you use cash for its anonymity.
Every now and again you might find yourself in a foreign country, where using credit or debit is either impossible (electricity? access to the 'net?) or expensive. Cash is required, and it's good to know how to recognize correct change. So you use cash for it's expediency.
The brain-exercise of calculating change quickly and correctly may even keep aging brains active, alert and alive.
At present (and a century ago, as well): not-too-bright criminals rob banks. Moronic criminals mug you when you walk out of the bank. Smart criminals go to work for the bank -- and the geniuses stay honest until they reach a high enough level to steal legally.
A cashless society will certainly slow down the first two types; they can still steal _goods_, but they have to lug them around, find a fence to buy them, not get caught by the police with them, and in general it's more work for less money, not to mention complicated enough to challenge their mentality. However, this provides increased opportunities for the smart criminals. And mainly, I would be concerned about the opportunities this gives to both corporations and governments for dishonest dealings.
Forty years ago, in any sort of sales business the motto was "the customer is always right". Nowadays, most corporate customer service depts run on the motto "the customer is always wrong". Do you really want to let them hold your money as bits in their computers, with no hard-copy proof of your account?
And then there are all the privacy aspects -- corporations tracking everything you purchase, g-men able to track your movements every time you stick a card in a machine, etc. I'll use cash, thank you. And if I become worried about muggers, CCW permits aren't that hard to get in Michigan... (A dead mugger is a non-recidivist.)
I have a friend who has horrible credit. He got this horrible credit bacause of a $40 charge that he disputes. The company that feels he owes them money, marked it on his credit report. So now, he cashes his paycheck twice a month and puts the cash in a safe he bought (for more than $40). He has chosen to give up the conveniences of the modern non-cash system for his principles (he's right about the $40 charge...but I won't go into that here). Without cash, he would be forced to concede his argument.
The more important point here is that cash always gives you an alternative way to live your life. With the relative ease that a company can destroy your credit rating, imagine the abuses that would occur if you *had to comply* everytime someone said you owed them something.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
.... they seem to get along just fine without it on Star Trek!
Shoot some worms!
Go on, shoot some fish!
And I'm not talking about credit cards here. I'm referring to what most people think is cash equivalent: checks and debit cards...
Try to cash a check anywhere. They will ask for ID, and either take a commission or hold the check until clearance. If you want the exact amount that's written on the check and want it now, you need a pre-approved line of credit.
Same thing for debit cards. Last month, I had to buy some computer equipment. I had more than enough money in my bank account. Unfortunately, my debit card could only be used for up to $1000 a day, and if I bought by credit card, I would have to pay a 3% surcharge. Of course, the store wouldn't accept checks without credit approval. So I had to go to the bank, and pay $20 extra for a certified check.
Of course, I could have withdrawn the cash and carry it with me, but I don't feel comfortable with several thousand dollars in twenties in my pockets.
In conclusion: either carry a cash and a gun, or watch your credit.
Nowadays, I never carry cash around. Before, I always used cash and ended up spending a lot more money, just because I happened to have it on me. With Debit/Credit, you pay exactly what the goods cost. With cash, you need to take out more than is necessary to cover the cost, and lets not forget the tons of change that (for me at least) ends up just gathering dust all over my apartment and in my car.
well after then events of two weeks ago I would assume people (the masses) woutld be less likely to futher depend on technology. It is one thing to be able to pay my bills online it is another thing to but a pack of gum with my debit card or another electronic method.
I'm not knocking e-payments but there are certain transactions, were cash is always king.
Your average local restaurant / Diner these place run on a tight margin as it is. Call your bookie and ask him if you can pay him with a check card (be prepaired for laugter). Seldom do I walk through Manhattan and see a street vendor's who takes plastic.
On a personally note while I am a young guy I like to operate in the old world (in some respects) when I go out with friend or a date. I like to have a cash nut in my pocket it's easier.
Not to mention there is no looming credit card bill.
What about a moneyless society?
If future technologies like nanotechnology provide for all the basic needs of humans, would money be needed?
Discuss.
666
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
...on how much bigger you want the underground economy to grow. You cannot eliminate money and expect all the "shady" dealings will immediately switch to e-money. You would probably drive more of the economy underground because people generally don't want a record kept of many kinds of transactions for many reasons.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
a cashless society would do wonders on combating the black market. everything would be traceable. come to think of it, hell no - imagine having to barter with the nationhood dealer for your dime sack. "gimme 3 quarts and a black n mild"
I have spent the past three years studying at Exeter University in the UK, graduating this summer. For the past 4 or so years Exeter had been running a cashless scheme called Mondex in association with Natwest bank. This consisted of a 'smart' card that could be loaded up with money that was debited from your current account at a number of ATM like machines. The smart card acted as our university identity card, library card, and also gave us access to some buildings and therefore every student at the university carried one and every student had the opportunity to load it with e-cash. All the shops, restaurants, cafeterias, and bars on campus were fitted with retailer terminals which transferred e-cash from our cards onto the retailer's card which, at the end of the day, could be taken to one of these ATM like machines and the money taken during the day 'uploaded' into the retailers bank account. This system was used by a lot of students for a number of reasons:
1) It was relatively secure. While you didn't need a pin number to spend money you could only spend what was on the card and you needed a pin number to put more money on the card. The card had a photo on it to prove it was you.
2) It was convenient. Instead of trying to work out if you had enough coppers to afford a pint you just slapped your card into your balance reader (a small LCD display with a slot in it that could be hung from a key ring) and it would give you a readout of how much you had left. Also you didn't have to carry around loads of heavy shrapnel like change.
3) Many students said it helped them to manage their money. This may just have been a psychology thing but for many it seamed to work.
The system worked very well (apart from when the ATM machines went down or ate your card) and was relatively beer proof (play sink or swim with your cards and you soon find out how long they last) until Natwest was bought by The Royal Bank of Scotland and the contract was up for renegotiation. Shame really, I quite liked the e-cash idea... it was more convenient for me at any rate.
On a similar subject, I would recommend everyone cut up those combo ATM cards that can be used as debit cards where credit cards can be used. They are bad, bad, bad. The reason? If a credit card is stolen, you can easily dispute the charges when they come in, and no cash comes out of your pocket. If a debit card is stolen, it comes directly out of your account. The banks typically promise that they'll credit back the money "really fast", but it still sucks when your checks bounce, and I wouldn't want to depend on how fast the bank acts.
Cut it up, and ask your bank for a regular ATM card that requires a PIN number.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
All your savings, investments and credit are in the computer. When you deposit money in the bank or transfer it only bits get saved the transfer of the funds from your paycheck are electronic - no actual money changes hands and only when you go to the ATM are bits converted to actual bills.
That being said don't want to see a cashless society until we have the functionality of cash in a card form. ie I put $50 from my ATM on a card - I purchase _The Anarchists Cookbook_ or _Coming Out To Your Parents For Dummies_ and I want that transaction to "cash equivalent". Anonymous and NOT linked to my bank account or me in any way.
We'll need to fight for this because VISA and Mastercard won't have their fee transaction charges to pursue for profit. But I say if they can do it for phone cards they can do it for cash.
=tkk
PS The goverment HATES this idea - it will be harder to get since last week. 8/
About a week ago, I saw for the first time a vending machine would will take student ID cards instead of cash. My university has a "snack" account plan on which you can charge some purchases made from the university on this account, all you need is your student ID card. Are these cashless machines common in any other areas? I hadn't ever seen one until recently.
I noticed that I almost completely phased cash out of my life nearly 2 years ago. The only thing I still need it for is to get a haircut. For some reason, can't find a barber that takes plastic.
One of the standards arguments about a cashless society is that organized crime, as we now know it can't exist because it depends on the anonymity of cash transactions (and it typically preys on poorer people who depend on cash as well)
Cash still has its uses... can't be tracked, flexible uses, won't blue-screen, etc ..... BUT it can be easily stolen.
Debit/credit transactions are getting more and more widespread everyday, BUT there are service fees on everything and while the money is more secure, it can still be stolen by determined (tech-savvy) criminals.
Cash will be around for a while yet ... at least as long as it takes for the banks to wake up and discover that people would use their cards more if they weren't being charged so much in service fees.
I recently had to make a frantic trip to my bank to request a credit card - I've been using debit cards exclusively for a while, but when booking a trip I learned that most (not all) car rental companies require a credit card, not a debit card, to rent a car.
Even more bizarrely, I was told that it doesn't matter if the debit card is backed by a $10k balance, while the credit card has a $1k limit (although I ended up getting a much higher limit). The "logic" was that debit cards usually have a daily limit, vs. credit cards to not. Again, this logic is rather odd since that debit card daily limit may still be higher than some credit card limits.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Last time I went camping all that was taken along was a Debit card and nothing else. Things went along just fine, the debit card was used to buy supplies as they where needed.
Debit cards work wonders, and quite frankly I see them as the 'smart' cards that everybody has dreamed of for so long but they do not need to be 'smart'.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
In economies where poeple dont trust the currencies, they invest in tangible goods like gold and silver.
In a cashless society, any illegal activity would certainly use some sort of untracable good such as gold
JP
--- Worst tagline ever.
Personally I feel that we are not really 'deterring' any sort of crime or fraudulancy against currency with the advent of the 'plastic cash'. Criminals will simply take on another form(as has been demostrated in the past), utilizing how 'connected' this world has become. We also open ourselves up to a lot of vulnerability. With large firms handling credit processing, a LOT of people could be quickly crippled if such a company was the victim of either a digital or 'brick-n-mortar' attack. Are we really ready to put such dependancy in the hands of others? There's not really much anyone could do to take the $20 bill in my pocket(aside from mugging of course).
Hi Folks !
It might be a reality to live nearly cashless in the USA, but here in switzerland, you just use your credit- or debit-card to get cash from a local post office or a bancomat and you usually pay cash !
At least I'm used to pay everything in cash !
Recently some stupid bankers tried to introduce a cash-card-system. Well only few use it. Real cash cannot lose it's memory and real cash doesn't cost interests.
Cash rocks !
Have a nice day folks
Your
Zaphod Beeblebrox
The single largest barrier to a cashless society (aside from the abuses by evil people) is service fees. Charge me a fee to use an ATM? Or even sometimes to slide my card at a store? Sorry, game over.
How to make your date think you are Mr. Big Shot while retaining your cheapo status:
1)withdraw $100 for your date from an ATM.
2)go into bank and exchange $40 for forty single dollar bills
3)wrap the remaining three twenties around the wad of singles and put in pocket
4)when paying for stuff on your date, make sure to always roll the twenties off the top
5)make sure your date does not cost more that $40 so you don't have to pull that last twenty dollar bill.
6)Say, "Fohgoet a'bout it" a lot. Chicks dig this.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
There are not enough positive factors in a cash-less society that it would actually (at least in the near future) become true.
If all the paper bills where removed, you would never actually have any money. It would just be like somekind of a score at your bank's computer. Many and many more need to be able to look at the real money, feel it, smell it and hear it.
And besides, how cool would it look like in a movie when the bad guys come with a steel briefcase containing a credit card?
While the technology may exist to secure a cashless society, it currently is not in place. For example, if you issued every citizen a card or stick or whathaveyou to use in place of cash, theft of such devices would run rampant if there were not a certain level of bio-enabled security. (such as a fingerprint or voice activation or retinal scan, etc etc) and even those are possible to fake. This is not to say a cash based system is more secure in and of itself, but at least then you have the option of not taking all of your money with you when you go somewhere.
Not every store has a system for reading an electronic method of payment, and they're not all standardized either. Sure you have your visa or mastercard systems, but what about discover, or american express, or other random systems that are out there? You'd have to have the goverment pass law about it, which means they would involve themselves in transactions, which leads me to my next point:
Lack of Privacy: There is a certain Big Brother aspect to all of this. The government would have to be involved, and they would keep track of every transaction you make. While this may not sound like such a bad thing, there is alot of money in underground businesses such as weapons trade or drug dealing. Now bringing these into the open through a cashless barter method may be a good thing(tm) but expect strong resistance from those engaged in 'less than legal' activities. Even those people engaged in perfectly legal, if less 'acceptable' transactions would dislike a monitored system simply to protect their privacy. Hell, I know I wouldn't like having anyone monitor and record my transactions regardless of their nature (not that I do anything about it now, I'm mostly cashless myself)
I garauntee you that for every one person in favor of it, there will be five right wing conservatives against it (not to stereotype or anything ;) It's too new, uses a far too untested (in the minds of the general public) system (computers :D) and lacks that air of certainty that cash has. When you have cash, you know you have money. With a card/stick/button/whatever it's an abstracted idea, which dosen't sit well in the minds of the masses.
:)
Now don't get me wrong, I'd love the system, I just don't think most people would
-Josh
Half of the $100 american bills in the world are OUTSIDE of the US. The reason why is that americans don't use physical money for larger purchases - they use checks/visa/etc.
In effect, we already are a cashless society on the high-end (when was the last time you paid for a $10,000 car using bills?), it's just taking some time for us to become cashless on the low-end.
-All your base are belong to the man.
You won't have to worry about plastic cards or PIN numbers, just zip-zap your rh/forehead.
... zip-zap or death.
Theft will be minimised - mainly restricted to the Government.
Your every purchase will of course be tracked - likely combined with traffic tracking - forget privacy.
I should point out that you will have little choice
- Cash is really the only means that we have for anonymous/semiprivate transactions. Everything can and is tracked. Big brother is watching you.</paranoia>
- People with poor planning skills. To many many many people in this world (although perhaps the interection of slashdot readers and this particular group of people is not very large), money that you can't hold in your hand isn't really money: this means that it can and is spent on a whim with not "plan". This is why people get so down in credit card debt that they can't seem to pull themselves out of...
If people are allowed to spend "insubstantial" money that they can't feel slip through their fingers... then many people could have a problem with their personal finances...IOW, credit cards are not for everyone. :)
-Chris
Here in Belgium, about a year or so ago, we all became cashless, although not by choice.
There was a rash of attacks against armored vans carrying cash to/from banks, supermarkets etc. The attacks were very nasty, with gangs using full-automatic weapons to shoot up the vans. All of the van drivers and security guards went on strike until conditions were made more safe. I, nor noone else blamed them and they had alot of support for their strike. Given the situation and the support they got, the strike went on for months until the security companies gave in.
For those months, we all slowly ran out of cash. The only way money was moved around was by headily armed police convoys or police/military helicopters.
The first weeks weren't too bad, as there was alot of cash around, after that, life did get harder, as shops ran out of change - my wife even raided my store of small coins (of which I had alot) to give to a local shop to help keep them with spare change.
Almost all Belgians have EFTPOS cards, and all large shops and alot of smaller ones have EFT systems. This meant that for major purchases (supermarket shopping, fuel), there was no problem and life went on almost as normal. I don't know a single person who doesn't have either and EFT card, or a VISA card, so I don't know anyone who couldn't do their shopping.
The biggest effect was things that required small amounts of money - newspaper, lunch etc.
These days, a type of electronic wallet has been included by all banks onto their EFT cards, so small payments is far less of a problem. Most small shops now have the system, so I can now buy my lunch or newspaper with it.
We all survived quite well during that period, and I think if it happened again, there would be very few problems, and would probably be the push needed to make most cash dissappear. The last strike certainly increased the usage of EFT.
Any other people from Belgium reading care to correct me or add their perceptions of the event?
"The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
I resent the implication that just because you go to strip clubs and bars that you are lower class.
But seriously, there are still a lot of places that do business on a cash only basis. The convention center where I used to work (before my degree) was cash only for concessions, and that was everything from the circus and sporting events to rock concerts and amway conventions (shudder).
Besides, do we really want to have a cashless society. People on this forum are constantly complaining about lack of privacy. Do we really feel comfortable about having every transaction we make being looked at by someone, or tracked and traced? You can tell a lot about someone by what they buy. Add to this the past controversies from Amazon changing pricing depending on the person, and the more recent article about page and mouse tracking on the internet, and you could find out just about everything you wanted to know about someone.
You can live in a cashless society if you want, but if I want to, I'll barter.
Zeus_tfc
"...At the end of the day"..."when everyone goes home, you're stuck with yourself." RIP Layne Staley
There's also a convenience factor to consider.
How many of you have gone out to dinner with a group of friends? It's fairly normal to divide up the bill in some fashion and everybody contribute an agreed upon amount of cash. Credit is possible, but it's certainly more difficult, especially in a cheaper restaurant.
Small groups (even with wealthy members) rely on cash for finances. Yesterday I went running with my running/social club. Every time a member shows up, he/she kicks in $4 to cover the cost of food and drink (light snacks). It's quick, it's easy and doesn't require the club to have any complicated financial tracking. Switching to credit/debit cards would be a real pain.
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- B. Franklin
Many folks don't know that the Federal Reserve is not part of the government--it is a corporation, owned by various banking institutions around the world. Cash money as we know it--the Federal Reserve Note--is not backed by gold or silver; it has no backing at all and is therefore not worth the paper it's printed on. You can buy stuff with it only because everybody thinks it's worth something.
You may have seen old gold or silver certificates. They look almost like our modern notes, except they say "United States of America" instead of "Federal Reserve Note" at the top. These notes were backed by actual gold or silver, and you could turn them in to obtain the gold you rightfully owned. IIRC, this was changed in 1934.
Inflation as we know it today is possible because money can be printed at any time. Although inflation still exists in a society where money is backed by gold, as more gold can be obtained, it is extremely small--perhaps a tiny fraction of one percent.
In a cashless society, money would be a lot like intellectual property. Just like so-called "cash" today, cashless money would not be backed by anything and would therefore have no rarity. In fact, it wouldn't even be backed by a note that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Your money would simply be a number in a database.
With this kind of system in place, your life would be convenient--too convenient, actually. Picture this: Every transaction is tracked and matched to purchases, fees, etc. Of course, advertising agencies will use this information to send you convenient offers based on the things you buy. (Try visiting a strip-club one time, and see how you receive pr0n ads for the rest of your life.) Oh yeah, and the friendly Internal Revenue Service automatically gets a portion of every transaction, including your paycheck (even though IRS taxes are voluntary).
Oh yeah, and did I mention that Big Brother is watching you?
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
KFC takes debit, as I can attest. They also brought back the buckets, instead of the boxes that they had been using. Rumour has it that it was going to be a tie-in for Buckethead being the new Guns 'n' Roses guitarist.
Actually, most major currencies are not backed by gold and haven't been for some time. The United States, for instance, went off the gold standard during the Nixon Administration. Even before that there wasn't enough gold to come anywhere close to backing all of the currency in circulation. Instead the money could theoretically be exchanged for gold, but there were sharp limits on how much gold a person could actually posses, imports and exports were restricted, etc.
The reason that gold stopped being used as backing for currency is that the partial backing system just didn't work anymore. Real exchange rates between countries shifted because their economies grew at different rates and their central banks had different policies, but the nominal exchange rates weren't allowed to fluctuate. That meant that the real and nominal value of gold was skewed and smuggling became a serious problem- hence the restictions on gold ownership.
Today there simply isn't enough gold to come anywhere close to meeting the needs of even partially backing currencies (with all the problems that would entail) much less fully backing it. Instead money is backed by the faith and credit of the government that issues it. That's a big part of the reason that exchange rates fluctuate wildly in response to political instability. It seems less tangible that backing with gold, but in reality it's not as big a difference from the partial backing system as you might think.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Take for example, this wallet:
$50 Cash
Charge Card
ATM Card
Drivers License
Then assume:
You figure out your wallet is stolen about 6 hours after it was actually taken.
This wallet, stolen in 1970 (when charge cards first appearred):
You call the bank, and cancel the charge card, and the ATM card. The crook has already run up $5000 in charges, but you're only liable for $50. The ATM card, without your PIN, was useless, and you didn't lose any money. You go to the MVD and get a new license - the old one was going to expire next year anyway. The cash is gone.
Total Loss: $110 ($50 Cash, $50 Credit, $10 for license)
This wallet, stolen in 2001:
You call the credit card company, and report the card stolen. The crook has already run up $5000, but you're not liable for any of it. Your ATM card was actually a CHECK CARD and the crook drained your bank account of $800 (and you're SOL because he got it before you reported it). The drivers license is still $10 at the MVD, but the old one wasn't due to expire until 2039 (my current AZ Drivers license does). You're still out the $50 cash.
Total Loss: $860 ($50 Cash, $800 Check Card, $10 for license)
The crook, using your drivers license information, downloads a blank license template from Bearshare and prints up a nifty fake ID with your info - still expiring in 2039. He then gets some other silly cards (gym memberships, Blockbuster Video, Costco Cards, etc) in your name. Then he opens a maildrop at a Mailboxes etc. Using this, he signs up for credit cards, store credit at Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. He gets thousands of dollars of nifty toys shipped to the maildrop. After picking the stuff up, he abandons the maildrop, leaving the bills piling up (in your name). Bill collectors start calling three months later, and don't quit for the rest of your life (even though you flag your credit report as an identity theft victim, we know how much institutional sense and compassion collection agencies have). You don't have to pay any money to the collectors, but with bad credit you are now unable to enjoy the benefits of the cashless society.
The cash component of the M1 monetary supply, which represents actual money (rather than checks, travelers checks, stocks and the like where the instrument is like cash, but not represented with U.S. currency) is something like 500 billion. That is, there is something like 500 billion dollars in paper and coin money floating around there, and this represents a steady increase from the 1940's, when the Fed's information starts. (Source: http://www.stls.fed.org).
Electronic wire transfers between banks, wire transfers between people, paperless checks (which are just a request to a bank to transfer money electronically), letters of credit, credit instruments--all of these things have been around well before computers. Some of these devices are by definition an invasion of privacy: an overseas letter of credit is often used by small businesses to indicate to overseas trading partners that money is available--generally, the letter of credit and representation to the overseas partner is made by the bank, and not by the person who pulled the letter.
That we have started being concerned with privacy issues and can now create paperless checks (that's what you're doing when you pay bills on-line from your checking account to a payee who can accept on-line payments) doesn't mean these things haven't been around since damned near the start of the Fed nearly a hundred years ago. The only things that are new is that it's faster and more convenient to do on your home computer, and we are now more concerned with the Internet about our personal information being sold to third parties so they can mail bomb our homes with junk mail.
I've been using plastic for most of my spending for a long time, but every now and then that bothers me a little. I have nothing to hide. The gov't knows where I live, what do I care if they know which gas station I use most often? And yet... one's imagination doesn't take long to figure out when it might not be a Good Thing (TM) for the gov't (or corps) to know so much.
But aside from that, there's just way to much person-to-person exchange of money for it to go away. I expect somebody out there is probably thinking up a way around this. Smart cards that communicate over bluetooth for person-to-person transactions, anybody?
Cashless will never happen until "they" want it to happen, outlaw cash and create electronic currency (via smartcards, computer chips in your hand/forehead, whatever). And don't knock this as some wierd conspiracy theory. Anybody can see the benefit of this to any number of gov't/corp interests.
I just hope it doesn't come to that, 'cause plastic is as far as I'll go. Beyond that, and it'll be back to barter for me.
Cheers.
We all know that rich people don't go see strippers, don't buy drugs, and never visit bars.
IANAL, but as I recall, merchants MUST accept cash as payment. Recall the fine print on those bills: "Legal tender for all debts, public and private". . .
I paid 10,000 dollars cash for my used Chevy C/K-1500 4x4 truck just last spring.
Same for when I tossed out 3500 for my new Mitsubishi big-screen. When I buy computers, I go to the local Apple dealer and throw cash down on the counter.
If I don't have the money in my pocket to buy something, I don't buy it. Never have, never will, when I go and buy that Impala SS I've been looking at, I'll pay for it in cash too.
"Think about this: if the cumulative value of everything in the world were expressed in measures of gold, which theoretically backs the majority of world currencies, does enough gold physically exist to back the paper money value, or has the paper money itself become valuable?
Huh? What kind of a nonsensical question is this? Never mind the fact that paper money is obviously valuable, the first part of the question makes no sense.
Of course enough physical gold existed to back the paper money value back when countries were on the gold standard. That's what being backed by gold meant... that they had the gold. -otherwise the gold standard would have been no different than the current paper standards.-
(Which is why, at least here in Canada, the 'fine print' on the bills didn't say "This note is legal tender" like it does now, but instead said "Will pay to the bearer on demand". You could theoretically at any time go in to a bank and exchange your cash for it's gold equivalent.)
Gold no longer backs the majority of the world's currencies, though, theoretically or any other way.
For a second there I thought it said cache-less society. My system would run a lot slower without that large L1 cache!
The real question isn't whether it's feasible or not. The fact is that it may becoming inevitable. It won't be long before a $500 office printer can produce counterfeit currency that will fool anyone who doesn't have special equipment and at appear page cost that allows U$5 to be printed en mass.
The whole point of cash is that anyone can take a bill and know it's worth X amount. If high quality counterfeits become so prevalent that every other bill taken to the bank is a fake then it will mean a near collapse of the economy.
I.e. Rumors are still going around that using the government mint in one country to produce counterfeits that could then be dumped on an opposing state was considered as a possible military strategy in WW2. Too bad they all preferred TNT, C4 and Hydrogen bombs.
So as the cost and logistics of producing those counterfeits which fool the naked eye goes down the prevalence of cash alternatives will grow. Eventually businesses will start refusing to accept cash. I.e. In Jamaica most shops accept US, UK and Canadian money. However many will not take a US $500 bill because they don't know what a good one looks like.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
This is an older tech but they did try it in the UK (I beleive the the US banned it for DEA reasons as it allowed large movements of cash anonymously) It's a card based system that allows transfer card to card to buy the cards for a price similar to the creditless cellphones that many a drug users and other creditless people use. So basicaly it does provide a method to move around currency (The card issuer garentees the actaul cash in the system) and supposedly it was pretty hard to crack into the cards as they may have had a lot of failsafes.
On the downside they were not recoverably if stolen allthough I thyink a pin system was in place to make the card useless to others.
The US issue was it easly allow massive ammount of money to be moved around and thus laundered. Agrigate a lot of small cards together into one card with say 10 mill on it travel to destination and then demux the cash to be checked out in small transactions to get the money from the USA back to Columbia etc or vise vera currently anything over 10k is tracked by the IRS.
Personaly I use cash often as I do not trust direct deposit (I've worked on some of the systems and seen companies use that right to adjust without telling you first) maybe if I could get a deposit only and transfer account set up in the states but that seems to be a european thing. Besides cash is faster with correct change relitivly hard to trace and easier to budget day to day spending. Also if you realy need something often a small bribe can get it done for example the taxi ride from NYC to upsate Connecticut when you have care troubles at 3am becomes feasable with a large tip offered to the driver.
Just go the Canada route and start minting coins.
I can't wait until I can buy a nice Jaguar XK8 convertable with nothing but a little pocket change. It's coming soon, I tell you!
--Dan
Do we really need cash in any shape or form? Why can't a society be built on trust and goodwill?
With any form of monetary system there will always be the have's and have not's.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
all those "cashless transactions" cost money. I've seen fees as high as 1.5% of the transaction. Its cheaper for all of us to use cash. Except for those of you who pay ATM fees. My bank refunds them to me...
vocaljess asked to begin this topic:
:)
"Think about this: if the cumulative value of everything in the world were expressed in measures of gold, which theoretically backs the majority of world currencies, does enough gold physically exist to back the paper money value, or has the paper money itself become valuable?"
There's definitely not enough gold around to back world currencies anymore. Especially since Nixon abandoned the gold standard nearly 30 years ago. In fact, many countries, like Britain for example, are divesting themselves of their gold reserves. However, the Federal Reserve here in the US does have a complex mechanism known as the "reserve system" that, among many other things, keeps the amount of money in circulation at least nominally tied to a -multiple- of the amount of gold held in reserve at places like Fort Knox. I'm not quoting exact figures here, but I'd imagine that dollar bill in your hand is probably backed up with a few pennies' worth of gold at any given time. In any case, the Fed doesn't mess with the money supply nearly as much as it does with interest rates because it's considered a less effective means of steering the economy.
I've wondered for some time why gold is still the precious metal of choice... aside from a very few special applications where its non-corrosiveness comes into play, it's not a terribly useful metal. Silver is much more useful, although its comparative abundance keeps the value low. If you want precious metals with real inherent, utilitarian value, you have to get into some of the more exotic stuff like platinum, palladium, tantalum, rhodium, uranium. Some of these are obviously more suitable for coinage than others
The whole debate about the "cashless" society just reflects on where we are as a civilization. It's a burden on the system to have money circulating about freely, it's much more efficient to treat it as an abstraction, bits on a hard disk in a bank mainframe somewhere. It's the most efficient way for capital to flow freely... This transformation is really no different than any other aspect of the industrial/digital age. Cash will play an increasingly diminished role in future years, though it probably won't disappear altogether until the latter half of the century. I'm just imagining Santa standing outside the mall ringing the bell with the Salvation Army bucket alongside. Yet instead of a slot in the bucket for you to insert your coins, there's a card reader inside. I'm not a betting man, but I wonder if someone could quote me an over/under on how long before we see this.
We're at about the midpoint of the transition, I'd say. There are about as many places that won't take your Visa card as won't take the $20 in your wallet (or at least will give you grief over it, like a friend got the other day at Best Buy). But there's still the impetus of "legal tender" to keep cash around.
I lived in a pure-cash economy for about 3 years. I was moving and changing jobs, and closed my bank account. Then as I was about to open a new one, the bank I was moving to got swallowed up by Wachovia, so I held off. By the time I got around to it again, I didn't feel like going through the bother. (I finally had to when the company I was working for got bought by EA and my paychecks started being drawn on Wells Fargo.)
My co-workers who have always had credit cards, checks and ATMs don't understand how one can live in the "cash economy" without sacrificing quality of life, but it can (mostly) be done.
The biggest hurdle is things that require a reservation. If you travel you're going to have to resign yourself to paying up-front for your airline ticket and playing Hotel-Motel Lotto when you arrive (unless you're staying with friends or family). Renting a car will also be off-limits to you unless you have a couple of thousand dollars to spare for the duration as a deposit.
Apart from that, you really don't notice much. Sending money through the mail (to pay bills, for example) will involve getting a money order from the post office, which is in the neighborhood of a dollar per MO -- and USPS money orders have the advantage that a receipt is presentable in court as prima facie proof of payment. Getting a loan can be a little trickier if you have no previous loan history, but you can use landlords as references. Also, your utility history will most likely show up on your credit history, especially if you have a cell phone. And speaking of utilities, you may have to give them deposits before they will start service, but these are usually payable in installments.
You won't be able to buy things instantly online, but most places will be happy to bill you or ship after receiving payment.
If you can forego instant gratification and avoid things like needing to rent a car, there's nothing preventing most Americans from living a pure cash lifestyle.
-- Old Man Kensey
I couldn't live in a cache-less society! Just think how long locatedb would take to index!
Sweden has an eCash card that can be used in the newstand and taxi's but nobody uses it.
In Finland, I heard that people can pay for items with theyre mobile phone account. Is this true?
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
So, anonymity and need for authorization access seem to be the two problems with electronic money. These can both be dealt with by way of anonymous cash cards that are purchased with, say, a credit cart or an EFT, and can, by use of public-key encryption, be independently verified as being authentic without the need for access to a central 'money server'.
To make things more convenient, we can even get around the need for an electronic reader to verify the PGP signature and deduct small amounts froma card, by issuing cards in smaller denominations that can be mix and matched in a pinch, to create 'exact change.'
Even better, instead of using cryptography, we can simply assign each money card a unique, human-readable serial number, and incorporate anti-counterfeiting, authentication technologies that can be verified by a human without need for an electronic reader or landline.
In fact, we could make the entire system even more convenient by changing the format from a credit-sized card to a paper medium, allowing many 'bills' to be stored in a 'wallet' at one time. These could be distributed from 'teller machines' that can be accessed using traditional archaic money technologies such as debit and credit cards.
Woah. I can't wait. It all sounds so cool.
Kevin Fox
As of this year, Canadians use debit cards more often than cash. Add in the use of credit cards, and cash is a dying breed.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
There is a far more utilitarian reason to use cash. On the day the WTC collapsed, many of the credit card machines in northern New Jersey stopped working as a result of the strain on the telephone network. Cash was the only way to get food, gas, etc. FEMA recommends that your disaster supplies include cash or travelers checks. Hurricanes, earthquakes and other disasters can be even more destructive to the telephone network due to the wide geographic area affected.
60 minutes did a special report on that rumor, actually. The Nazis (non-Godwin Nazis) had secured printing plates and were printing flawless British notes. They used them to support the German war machine and were prepared to dump them en masse into the British economy. Unfortunately they lost the war before they had that chance.
I wish I could remember the name of the lake that they submerged all the funny money in. It was pretty neat how the researchers went down with manned subs and retrieved the papers.
I make most of my purchases with a credit card that gives me a 1% rebate each month. I always pay the bill in full, so I'm up a couple of hundred dollars every year. Yeah, I know, collectively we pay a 3% spread for credit cards over cash. But you rarely get that back, by paying cash. I get a little back every time I use a credit card. Strange, huh?
Much as a cashless society has its advantages, and to some extent would make life easier, i want no part in it.
if you decide to spend cash money, it is basically untraceble. You can do with it what you will, and nobody is any the wiser. This is not possible with credit cards. How long before your pay cheques/deposits have code in them to prevent transactions with certain other companies? Government could instate a law to bad any transactions involving alcohol or other such things.
What would happen in the case of computer error or bad data? at least if you have the real money there are few arguments as to if its legitimate. (come to think of this, this could be a good way to remove bank robberies etc)
We're already to much under the eyes of organisations and, call me paranoid, i dont like it. If you cant cheat your taxes, confuse the system by paying slightly too much. Introducing human erorr makes electronic systems difficult to support!
Frank Zappa once suggested that, if we were serious about putting drug dealers out of business, we should change the color of cash. Everyone would have to turn in their cash to have it converted, and we'd get a good look at just who kept huge reserves of cash laying around: drug dealers, Microsoft, etc. It'd also make it harder for folks like that to dodge taxes.
THE GOOD HUMOR MAN CAN ONLY BE PUSHED SO FAR
Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 2F18
While I to prefer cash and use it 95% of the time, it does not save me or the business any money.
1 - There is no such thing as a discount for cash. It just doesn't happen. There are a few places (like Steak N Shake, RaceTrak) that are cash only and offer prices that are 1-2% lower, but it's tough to find them.
2 - Cash costs money. It costs money to have a cash safe. It's a security risk to have a lot of cash on hand for change purposes. It costs money to have a security guard come pick up your cash and take it to a bank. There is no clear accounting trail to follow. Whether this is more or less than the 1.5-3% CC charge business, I have no idea. But don't think that cash costs less money.
The above is a joke. Don't point at people unless you intend to kill them.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Oh wait, that's because I'm in college.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
> One of the largest proposed advantages of a cash-less society is one of limited-theft
Bah. If my wallet was stolen, my immediate concern wouldn't be the couple of twenty dollar bills I had in there, it would be the credit cards and ATM card in there. Even if we weren't plunking down currency to buy stuff in stores, people would find a way to steal money from you.
I enjoy the convenience of online payments, but I like to remember that money represents the bit of life I've spent working in exchange for the spiffy gadget or the fine meal that I want. The stronger the relationship between what I buy and the work I had to do to afford that purchase, the less likely I am to spend foolishly. And I think physical money keeps that relationship strong.
Tom
The biggest problem with a cashless society is the question of who controls everything. When you have cash in your hands, you are the one who determines its use, and its acceptability as a means of exchange is set by yourself and the other person in the transaction (Cashier, etc.). When you move to a cashless society, you bring in a third-party that now controls the whole transaction, and YOUR money really isn't YOURS unless THEY let you do what you want to do with it. It is identical to the problem that happens when a bank screws up and doesn't permit you to use your debit or credit card. Suddenly what should be yours to use, isn't REALLY yours, because you don't have access to it. The other dark side of cashless interactions is the single point of control / abuse. It all brings back a memory of the Sandra Bullock movie 'The Net', where her personal life was 'upgraded' to a new version! I don't really want to go to a cashless society, where I give up all my rights to use MY money as I want. I'm no druggie, and I don't deal with illegal trade, rather I am suspicious of those who want to control my currency. Think back to pre-WWII, where in Germany the value of the currency fell so much that it truly took a wheelbarrel full of CASH to purchase a loaf of bread! Devaluation of your money can still occur either in a cash or cash-less society, but at least in a cash-based society, you CAN have something physical to represent an exchange value, and people really react to having to lug a bucket-full of coin to the 7-11 for a slurpee. People won't notice 'as much' if suddenly a cash-less devaluation occurs to your currency, because your 'smart card' won't get any heavier, though the decimal place in your account balance may shift a little to the left. Keep control over your own ability to buy and sell, resist the Cashless Society and those who want to take away your ability to control your own money.
There have been several attempts to destabilize the economy of a country by flooding it with counterfeit notes - Laos in the 1960s comes to mind. Germany was planning to ruin the U.K. pound the same way in WW2 but never got around to it.
I live in a mainly cashless society now. In Canada we have a nationwide debit card system that all the banks and 99% of businesses participate in. We still have the option to pay cash for things, but with fewer businesses taking anything larger than a $20 bill (counterfeiting problems), this is an increasingly awkward option.
Yes, the banks take a cut. They always do. They view it as charging for a service, and, for now, I accept that. If I didn't have the option of using cash I'd have to reconsider.
...laura
This has been tested in Swansea, UK, and I believe it proved reasonably successful, at least with the vendors that used it.
As I see it, credit/debit cards will die off, over time. You can't keep spending ahead of yourself, and expect to make ends meet. The recession of the Thatcher/Reagan era was largely a product of free-spending on credit. The amount spent vastly exceeded the amount available, and the economic system was not able to cope.
Further, credit/debit cards DO need a third-party, which is inherently more expensive than having the electronics do all the transacting on-site. It's therefore much cheaper for banks to churn out a bunch of "smart cards", with suffcient processing power to handle decent public-key encryption, than to maintain a clearing-house for credit cards.
Since cheaper usually wins, in the end, a system involving distributed handling of transactions will always be preferable to a centralized one.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I don't have a link to this, but I have seen a newsreel on TCM or something called "Hitler's Phony Fivers" about the discovery of a large cache of counterfeit 5 pound notes after WWII.
While we're on the subject, has anyone found a replacement for what was briefly the best cash-alternative ever; those American Express bearer cards that 7-Eleven sold? Those things were wonderful. Just as anonymous and secure as cash, but a whole lot more convenient to carry, and you could use them online, or for mail-order, or to buy gas at those damned places that refuse real money. Only real disadvantage was the cost, but they were competitive with many checking accounts and most credit cards. I can't see why they didn't sell more. Sure wish I could find something else like them.
i'm no expert, and nyc banking has a decidedly police state flavor, but... my wife bounced the rent check more than once because the japanese do not really use checking, everything is done via fund transfers.
(she would deposit checks without understanding the bank could take over a week to credit the account)
so the (japanese) landlord demands cash every month. i think its common for many people to carry tens of thousands of yen (hundreds of dollars) *all the time* with *zero fear* of being robbed in japan, but here in manhattan it's a different story.
so the japanese carry more cash than typical americans, and seemingly use more automated money transactions as well... what about other cultures and money, anything to be learned?
E.g., every workday I walk down to the cafe on the first floor where the staff and I greet each other by name. I order my food, they give it to me, and I walk out. Money is never mentioned. At the end of each month, they snail-mail me a bill and I pay it.
Obviously this won't work for every cafe in the world, but the point is that no PDA's, debit cards, or passwords are involved. It's an old-fashioned tab and sometimes those old-fashioned things work quite well.
Miko O'Sullivan
Canadians are already there. Canada has the world's highest use of debit cards. They are accepted almost anywhere, except for very small stores (which only accept cash). Canadians are also very heavy users of online banking. Personally I find it very convenient, although I use my credit card (no fee) as opposed to my debit card (possible transaction fee).
"A recent survey showed that in 1999, 38 per cent of respondents used debit cards while 39 per cent preferred to pay cash. 16 per cent used credits cards and only three per cent paid by cheque." (Economic News Digest July 2000)
I think debit use has now surpassed cash.
[insert joke comparing low value of Canadian dollar to US dollar here]
Electronic is far easier!
But let's face it, though... If I or any number of other people were to suddenly find ourselves filthy smegging rich, I mean just mindnumbingly wealthy, which is better... A big 'ol barrel full or tub full of $50 and $100 bills, or a credit card? Personally, I'd take the cash to roll around in. Hell, it's a lot easier to get people's attention with a cash than it is a credit card.
Like grease. Let's say for the sake of conversation that you want to take your significant other out to dinner, and the place you go to is snooty, and you're told 2 hours for a table. What do you do, hold your credit card under the hosts nose and say "Charge yourself fifty bucks, Guido"? No. You break out a small ball of dead presidents, peel off a few, and get your table.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
IIRC, Moon Moth was about an interstellar cop trying to catch a criminal in a society where everyone worn face masks of different design depending of their mood and intent, and spoke in a complex mix of modes to match.
I'm married with two kids (setting context)
Each month I take out $100 at the begining of the month and another $100 in the middle (both in cash, my wife does the same). This is MY money. No one tracks it (except me) and no questions are asked on how it's spent. If I want to buy porno or beer or comic books, I do it.
In our house we track finances very carefully. This cash allowance is required to keep the budget sane and to keep me/wife sane. Since every transaction is entered into the computer, there is no household privacy WRT credit cards and checks. Cash is the only way to manage "personal" money. It's also usefull for tracking when it's time to stop spending.
When you're holding on to the last little green thingie, this is the last round.
The majority of the world's currencies are backed by fait not gold. (That is to say that those pieces of paper are worth something because the goverment said so.)
Grey (Chris Lusena)
Some times I've asked myself the question "how much does money effect the my quality of my life?"
Many people could be fast to conclued that money provides quality of life and the more money you have the better quality of life you have.
Some time I've asked myself the question "how much does money effect the my quality of life for a country?", some people will be fast to give the same answer.
Upon inspection, the answer to the first question need some refinement to be correct: "that money provides quality of life and the more money you have (compared to everybody else) the better quality of life you have."
Some times I asked myself the question "What are things that give my life quality?", these things would be different from everybody elses. For me the things that give my life quality include, surfing (in the sea not on the web), being by water, being with my girlfriend, hanging out with my close friends, smoking pot, drinking my fav. beer (New Castle Brown Ale), helping people, eating every day, looking at art, listening to music, researching interesting things, the internet.
Somethings that have no bearing on the quality of my life: TV, needing a better car, needing to express myself as better than other people....
I think almost everything that makes my life good could be available in a society without money (some items maybe more readily available than now).
Brew my own beer, grow my own pot, and share it with my friends, surf when the waves are good, tend the garden when they are not.... I'd be happy. I could almost consider giving up the information IV (high speed internet connection) for a cashless society.
M0571y H@rml355.
There is another more fundamental reason why a cashless society will not come to the States anytime soon. It has to do with the beliefs of many influential ultra-conservative religious groups.
These christian groups point to Revelation 13:16-18 as indicating that a cashless society is one of the "marks of the beast." These groups oppose a cashless society believing they are staving off the takeover of the Anti-Christ.
Google search with more info
The distinction the questioner fails to make is between it being *possible* to go cashless and *everyone* acutally doing it. There is a huge difference.
It seems obvious that cash gives you lots of options that other, more virtual, currencies do not. Most notably anonimity and freedom from scrutiny (plus it still works when the power is out). Why on earth would everyone suddenly choose to give up those options?
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
Funny, I relocated to the SF area a couple years ago, and as an experiment, I didn't order any paper checks. I managed to get by the first year using only one of the temporary checks they gave me. I finally ordered paper ones, and I've used four of them, of which three were for goverment agencies (DMV, IRS, State tax). Nearly everything else is paid online... I use a credit card to buy gas and food, and pay that bill online weekly. I carry some cash (cigarettes and junk food account for most of that), but it's a small percentage of what goes through my bank account. So I'm nearly cashless.
Still, even though it's plausible to go without cash, in order to eliminate it, you'd have to get the sellers to stop accepting it. How would you do that? The only way would be if the government eliminated cash completely, for example, if they offered to redeem it for credit up to a certain date, and refused to back it thereafter.
For starters, the implications for personal privacy would be substantial, and there would likely be widespread public outcry. But more to the point, cash is a simple method of anonymous exchange that allows economic activity to take place at a very low level. Eliminating it would impact many transactions, as some have observed. Some are illegal, such as drug deals, but others are benign... flea markets and garage sales, poker games, tipping, lemonade stands, and a lot of everyday economic activity among poorer people.
So I just don't see how it's possible, no matter how close we come, to being able to eliminate cash entirely, nor should we want to. We will be pretty close, in fact, we already are pretty close... if we choose to, we can live with minimal cash. But I don't want to go without it completely, and I don't think many others will either. Anonymous paper cash is a pretty profound invention, and electronic transactions will only replace it for transactions that offer substantial improvement in convenience or that require some sort of accountability.
What happens if my best friend or my brother needs to borrow a little money? All I have to do is fork over a couple of bills and send him on his way (and hope I get it back sometime in this lifetime). With a totally cashless society, I and whoever else would loan him money would have to follow him wherever he needs to go in order to help him pay. Unless of course you get ATM machines with a "transfer balance" option (more big-brother paranoia), but even then we both would have to had out to the ATM together. I suppose I could just write a check. But then one could argue that a check is in some sense another form of paper money, in that it implies that someone is promising to back the note up with something of value (cash=gold, check=cash).
Wouldn't a cash less society put drug dealers out of business? One point of cash is that anonyminity of a transaction (legal or not), and also to provide a low transaction cost for a purchase (don't need to wait for approval, power to come back on etc.)
--------
It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
I thought about this topic a month or two ago, not that I gave it that much thought. I was walking to the car from work when I was asked for "some spare change". first like I have any "spare", second I had not handled cash in weeks. I get paid by direct deposit, I buy gas with the MC, and I use the ATM/Debit card for the rest. I had to refuse the guy regardless of the fact I wanted to assist him or not. No I don't have spare change as I don't use it.
I mentioned this to my buddy, we had a long talk over the social implications of the "cashless" society and those who are on the fringe of society.
We won't be "cashless" until you can give a bum a buck or two cashlessly.
My 2 cents, (cashless at that too)
"Stop 0x0000001E ( C0000005, 80444028, 00000000, 00000018 ) KMODE_TRANSACTION_NOT_HANDLED."
Cashless society? I think not.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Here in canada almost all computer stores won't accept Credit cards without charging you the 1.5 - 2.5% interest that the CC company charges them. Think about the local hardware/restaurant/florist/assorted small business owner who is simply including these charges into everything you buy. While large corps can negotiate a .00002% charge for themselves with the CC companies/banks.
Paying with cash levels the playing field for small business.
Its well know here in Canada that paying with cash will net you a large discount if you ask for it, especially when paying for services.
The government even had ads on TV featuring a hooded middle class white collar worker talking about paying with cash. It branded paying with cash/not asking for a receipt/asking not to pay tax/or avoiding tax as a criminal act.
I was very upset that my tax dollars were going to pay for such mindless drivel.
In summary. Having a intermidiary for all your transactions only increases the price of the transaction. Cash cuts out the middleman banker.
2) go into bank and exchange $40 for forty single dollar bills
3) stuff wad of bills in front of pants
...you can usually have the $1000 daily limit waived by calling the bank. They'll ask you a few questions for security purposes, and then give you a four-hour extension of the limit.
I was peripherally involved with a smart card-based electronic money venture in the mid-90s. This system permitted card-to-card transfers in which no central server needed to be hit. Even at that time, the U.S. Gov't agencies we spoke with were not keen on keen on this because of the money laundering, tax-evasion and illegal transactions (e.g. drug) potential for the system and seemed to want to have a maximum storable value for a card (for instance, $300) and a maximum transaction level (for instance, $1000/day). In the wake of recent terrorist activities, I would think these concerns would be heightened and that "unaccounted" (no central server) or anonymous electronic cash systems would meet governmental resistance.
With a cash-less society, surely there would be no cash theft, but there would be credit-card fraud etc.?
So theft would be eliminated, but what once was theft has now become fraud.
Every time I get money from a bank machine, I get charged something between $1.50 and $3.00 for the privilege. Some banks (www.firstib.com) will reimburse fees. (up to $6/mo. in their case)
Even if you only get hit once in a while by fees, it's still more than the $0 transaction fee you get with a credit card you pay off.
Those little bits add up-- cash costs you more to use than a carefully managed credit card. Especially one with a monthly rebate like the previous poster mentioned.
The one invetion i cant wait for is the quickchange card( like the one for phones, parking meters) that is use and accepted everywere debit is... it's that other slot in certain bebit machines. I would love it cuz if i had to load someone cash i would take out the card and stick in a reader then transfer to his... the only problem is without security someone could just take your card and poof there goes your cash.
GPF : The program Win.exe has caused an erorr in
Why do you think that cash is the answer to untraceable transactions? All it takes is bar code on every bank note (as there already are in some European countries), small machines that every merchant runs them through (this will also weed out counterfeits, so acceptance of these devices will be widespread) and once-a-day (maybe even once-a-week) upload to the Big Brother of all the bills tendered at a particular business. All components are already there; only a matter of time before we put them together in the name of catching the next nut who tries to buy seven one-way first-class airline tickets with cash.
As for me, I'd put more faith in smart cards with private/public key encryption. That is, until I find out that our Fed friends want to install a back door into that one too. Wait...
I can assure you, the best way to get rid of dragons is to have one of your own.
I think it's a totally infeasible idea. I mean, exactly how are we going to replace all the CPUs and mobos out there. And, what, are websites supposed to sit entirely in memory when you visit them? All files will be streamed? Oh, wait...*cash*-less...nevermind.
Dollars are not backed by gold. (See replies by quartz and Brian See.) The US no longer has a value-based money, it has fiat-based money...that is, based on nothing but debt. If the banks go under, they are insured, right? By whom? The US gov't. Who pays for the US gov't? Taxpayers. So we taxpayers are held responsible for bad business decisions of the country's financial institutions.
The Fed governs how much money is in circulation. As they add more "dollars" inflation grows because there is no real value behind it. The value is just spread through more pieces of paper, so each one is worth less. The 16th Amendment keeps this from getting out of hand by permitting the gov't to regulate how much we can earn, sopping up any extra dollars floating around. (IANAE [I am not an economist] so this 5 sentence description hardly does justice.) This was what caused the Great Depression.
A cashless society will eventually bring about our downfall. The gov't already has too much power to manipulate the economy; it doesn't need any more. Fortunately there is a remarkable remedy for this situation. Vote Constitution if you want economy backed by something of substantive value.
Constitutionally Correct
the nudie bar. Sorry, buddy, but they won't take American Express there. ;-)
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
other side of the register, swipe the card for the person, and then tell them to punch in their PIN, then has to wait for
authorization, and then hits the yes (confirm/accept/etc.). Then go back to their side of the register, and hand the person their
reciept.
and I've been stuck behind british tourists trying to work out which U.S. note is which because they are not different colo(u)rs, don't ask me why, but stupity (this isn't really the word to discribe people who aren't used to another currency or aren't used to ATMs.. but who cares) won't go away just because cash does.....
M0571y H@rml355.
How would an individual in a cashless society buy marijuana, pornography, stolen laptops or big bags of Doritos despite being on a low carb diet? Cash leaves no paper trail, is universally acceptable by people who aren't really a "business" in the IRS-tracks-our-every move sense and has a sort of a global backing. It is the only form of payment accepted in thousands of small shops, bars, clubs, and in many foreign countries, it's the only way to tip a bellhop who nabs you a box of condoms and doesn't tell your wife about the chick you met at Mac World and it's the only way to get out of an expensive speeding ticket without lying to a judge.
In short, a cashless society would be nice for following our finances, but it reduces a lot of our liberties -- mainly, the right to buy things without anybody (especially not our creditors) knowing what they are. Plus, it's so much fun to do that thing where you make Lincoln stand upside down after a couple joints and a brew-dog.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
of course, for most of us.. however, like support for 300 baud modems, there will always be places that take $$. (if at the very least to help you convert it to electronic cash!)
Having cash in the future, however, could denote you as a second-class citizen (if not already!)
however, unless anonymity can be guaranteed, Cash is here to stay.
most of you do realize that if there is a Mastercard/Visa symbol on that debit/bank/check card that it can be used as a credit card (i.e. no PIN), right?
:)
with my old bank, Bank of America, it saved me money to use it as a "credit card" when buying gas, snacks, strippers, or whatever. every time i used the card at a non-BofA terminal and entered my PIN, i paid a fee! i think it was $1.50US. my sis used to work at Wells Fargo, and it was the same story there.
thus, the establishment _FORCED_ me to save time in order to avoid the fee
... so will a lot of dissent.
The easist way for a government, or let's say the government's Office of Homeland Defense, to stifle legitimate dissent at home is to cause mysterious glitches in certain individuals' electronic lives... credit getting mysteriously screwed up, cash disappearing, technical problems sorry about that.
Granted, one can still be screwed up in real, physical life, but it requires more effort to tamper with thousands of people in the flesh versus running scripts against lists.
-d
Don't limit people to some sort of card for spending -- use biometrics. Walk up to the counter, get your order, and walk away. Face recognition software figured out who you were, that you were not wanted by the police, what your preferred account for small transactions was, and debited that account.
This would solve the identity-theft problem.
There is no real privacy issue here, it is just like going to the neighborhood grocer who knows you by sight and who puts your purchases on your account.
People used to live in villages where everyone knew everything about everyone. We moved away from that and now we are back but it is a global village. Privacy was a flash in the pan of the 20th century.
-- 3.14159
I know a lot of you guys live in the city, but i can't imaging not paying for things in cash in the country. You're not going to see too many vendors at the farmer's market with the equipment to use any sort of card.
For most things, yes, you can get by without physical cash. That is, if you live in the city where there are grocery stores.
I guess I just like physical cash. It helps you manage your money better (at least it does for me) I know how much I have in my wallet, and i can count it. I have a pretty good idea of what is on my credit card, but it is easy to put "little things" on there that add up.
I used them in 1992 in upstate New York.
...it just takes a theif of...
/. crew exempt.
A theif, a theif, a kingdom for a grammar checker in the Slash code. Any volunteers?
Some of my favorite places to eat, such as Penn Station, White Castle and Steak'n'Shake are cash-only. I don't like to consider a Slider-free society.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Increased Accuracy: I don't have to worry that the half-passed-out clerk at CVS is going to hand me the wrong change. I know that I can count it, but it saves time and hassle if you have to argue over whether you originally handed him/her a $20 or a $50.
Limited Risk: Living and going to school in Boston, I hear stories every day of friends getting their wallets stolen. If I don't have to carry much cash, I can just call my bank and cancel the check card if my wallet is stolen.
I know these things seem trivial, but anything to save time and hassle during my everyday routine helps. I also enjoy transferring funds between my accounts over the web. I can never get to the bank during their increasingly limited hours.
Two things come to mind. 1st, this will dramatically save lives...think convenience stores. Second...in a cashless society, at what age do children receive a credit card. Think about, would it be fair to not give someone buying power until they're an adult (or whatever the minimum age on credit cards are now?)?
The real logic behind this is that the car rental company/hotel/whatever that requires the credit card can charge for damage at any time just with your credit card number and expiry date. A debit card always requires you to enter your PIN at a terminal so they'd have to get you to agree to pay them. Not surprisingly, they like the credit card better.
1) Unlike credit cards, debit cards are not protected with the $50 risk limit. As someone mentioned before, debit cards, check cards, probably that ATM card in your wallet, are all at risk for emptying your account. Call the bank first when you lose your wallet!
;^). At least restaurants are more willing to split checks on two credit cards these days (even though they're getting caught for two transaction fees).
2) The McD's in the mall near us has a sign saying "Coming Soon: Speedpass!" I guess Mobil is marketing their credit wand to other companies now. Has anyone hacked those devices yet? Can you spoof/steal the codes going between them?
3) How will non-cash transactions between individuals work? If Bob owes me $8 for his share of the pizza, I'm not taking a credit card, losing 2-3% + $.30 for the transaction (based on high risk transactions), even if I had a wireless credit card validator in my Visor
In 1996, of the $390,000 million in U.S. currency in circulation, an estimated two-thirds was held outside the United States. The seignorage benefits of this alone would make it unlikely that the US government would abandon cash.
To process payments electronically, you need phone lines. And if all your phone lines get cut, either due to terrorist attack, natural disaster or whatever, you can't buy or sell anything until they get fixed. (See details in this story from the Los Angeles Times.)
Unless you have cash.
Sure, in normal operation, you can go days without cash, using credit and debit cards and automatic payments. But until we get better support for secure wireless transactions, cash will remain the necessary fall-back for disasters when the land lines get cut.
(And this isn't even considering the issue of cyber-terrorism....)
Why is it called COMMON sense when so few people have it?
The whole thing about money as I see it
has to do with providing means to individuals
so they can accumulate enough of it to become
better than their peers.
You must feed this kind of ambition in order
to keep the system going so you must provide
means for people to become criminals so you
have a very clear and definite scale for
evil/good.
You cannot provide anonymous criminals if you
know for sure where they are (by tracking balance
on a cashless society) and what they do, so you
must keep anonymous money around.
So it does not matter if it cashless or not,
it should be moneyless.
Every single individual is as important as
anybody else so why make a difference on
their pay check!
Just try to realize a world where every single
janitor, garbage collector would stop working
all of a sudden for months, years...
How much would you value their services then?
Could we back enough currency to do the job with the amount of gold which is available? Of course we could. The only question is "how much would an ounce of gold be worth"? In terms of gold, one of today's dollars is worth about 1/272 of an ounce. If we backed our currency fully, so that we had full convertability (i.e., you can take your dollars to the Fed and get the amount of gold promised on the face of the dollars. This hasn't been possible in the US since 1932.), there would be (at a guess) around 1/16,000 of an ounce of gold per dollar. Different assumptions about what oblicgations needed to be backed by gold would give different results.
Your laser printer won't be much use as a conunterfeit press without the proper cotton rag paper (which requires $$ to produce due to the large rollers used to flatten it) and special ink. Also, it has to get the moire pattern right and print finely enough to reproduce the state names on the back of the 5 dollar bill.
Reboot macht Frei.
Is that like a hores of a different colur?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
It is a sad, sad day when this story gets posted and none of the top responses as of this comment mention the very obvious and very old problems that everyone should know by now.
- Cash is mostly anonymous and private. I earnestly hope that it never goes away until some electronic form of money has similar qualities. Your credit cards, debit cards, store charge cards are all extremely un-private. Yes, this actually has significant negative consequences. It's such an obvious arguement that I'll simply say EFF. Almost all privacy policies are mis-named. Which leads to...
- Under our current system of credit/debit cards, identity theft becomes a easy and devastating attack. It's much more efficient to script an exploit to get credit card numbers than to rob a bank. Simply getting rid of cash will only exacerbate these problems. I wouldn't be surprised if a good third of the ecommerce sites on the internet got hit with one of various viruses/worms this summer alone.
I know the author was a victim of techno lust and meant well, but people should really be more informed. Civil liberties are too important to foresake for convenience or because of ignorance.
We need paper money!
How else are the Taliban and Osama "I need a skycraper up my wontan ass" bin Laden going to deliver their Superplague to the masses of consuming westerners, without paper bills in which to embed the Spores?[1] As of yesterday cropdusters are out, you know.
[1]c.f. The White Plague, by Frank Herbert
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The day the U.S. switches to a cashless society is the day I move to another continent. I hope and think that it will not happen in my lifetime.
Of course, $500 bills haven't been issued since 1969, and haven't been printed since 1945, so that's not too surprising......
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Feds will most definitely like it because all transactions will be traceable. You will not be able to buy 500 pounds of fertilizer and a uhaul without the feds being able to trace it to you. Probably not to good for privacy, but a very good thing for anti-terrorism.
Here's what we go.
Sin(pi*X/2*N) must equal -1
Sin(Pi*x/(2*n) + sin(pi*n/2) must equal 0
N only exists between 1 && X
I don't care about 1 or X as the answers. I care about the numbers betweeen 1 && X.
Anybody who can give me a sure fire equation would be helpful.
Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
I think the major problem with cash-less transactions is that they take much longer than cash transactions, and have an additional fee. That makes it problematic if a group of people at dinner want to split the bill without cash, or when you get food delivered. For transactions where there's something else going on (chatting with people, finishing desert, bagging the things you bought, etc), it's not too much of a problem, but it means that one quick transaction or a number of transactions at the same time are inconvenient.
The value of money is not contigent upon whether its backed up by gold or not, but rather how likely is it ot be accepted in exchange for good and services.
Contemplate the marvel that is existence, and rejoice that you are able to do so.
I'm no alarmist, and the current events while horrible aren't going to make me change my lifestyle. However, why are we talking about switching from a tried and true, effective, massively decentralised system of exchange to a relatively new technology based centralised system that could then be, when no other paper backup exists, a wonderful target for a terrorist attack. I understand this would require a concerted effort by the terrorist, but what did you just see?
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this...
Octupus card
It's a card/watch that everyone in Hong Kong carries nowadays. I could pretty much go on for a day just on that card:
Carrying the Octopus means I no longer need to carry those little coins and small notes.
Yes, the system is centralized, but if you're worried about privacy, at least you can get anonymous cards.
I have heard that there is no fraud (or theft protection) on debit cards as there is on credit cards. If your account is cleaned out, too bad. Is this true?
Lastly, why is there no (truly) anonymous electronic transactions (for the less than super wealthy i.e. think numbered Swiss banks accounts)? In real life we have cash, money orders and cashier's checks, but nothing similar on line. Will we ever? Is it illegal?
I believe that real value today is based on human labor, and that the very rich get that way by exploiting other people, who are then supposed to be grateful for being exploited.
> So does the establishment like cash..... What is backing US currency.
> Nothing execept the promis to tax you in the future for any debt created
> by it's printing.
Okay, I'll bite on this one. What's backing U.S. dollar is the U.S. economy. It's nominally the government, but when a government tries to buttress the value of its currency when the local economy doesn't support it, you end up with the situation they had in Russia near the end of the Soviet Union, where people don't want the local currency because it's not "hard".
> Its the largest conterfiet operation in existance.
This makes a nice sound bite, but since the amount of real cash in a society represents only a miniscule fraction of the value of M1 (the money supply), I think this may be a bit of an exaggeration.
Virg
BTW...
For those of you who have ever pondered what the point of the Check Card is vs the Debit Card? The bank/Credit union make money off of you when you use your Check Card. That is why it is pushed so hard.
When I worked for the Credit Union, one of our largest sources of revenue was from people who used Check Cards. That's why, when I use it, I always choose Debit and enter the Pin number. Why should I make the store pay a fee just so I can sign instead of punching in a PIN?
Random Musings
Please use it to buy a spellchecker. Please.
The wonders of student debt. You get the experience of working for a living without any large tricky amounts of cash to worry over. The bank makes sure of that.
air and light and time and space
If the quality of the actual US dollars that are in circulation falls below a certain point, they become worth very little because after taking so much wear they are not recognizable as authentic currency. Older bills need to be taken out of circulation, and new ones printed to keep the worlds faith in the strength of the dollar alive. New bills must contstantly be printed to prevent forgeries of older bills to be passed easily (it is very hard to pass off 20,000 $100 bills that were all printed in '84, when the worldwide supply of those bills is known to only be 60,000 or so (made up nubers I know, but you get the point.
There will always be cash money in use by millions in the world, at least for the forseeable (next 75 years) future. And the US dollar will continue to be one of if not the strongest currency on the planed. Until that changes the US government has a massive interest in upholding the functionality, appearance, and perception of the US dollar.
Comments should be like skirts. Short enough to keep your attention, but long enough to cover the subject
Cash-less? I'll believe it when I see a bum with a credit card machine asking for a buck to get a 'bus ride downtown!'
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
In Belgium/Europe we have something for 6 years now called a proton card : it has a chip which you can load with money from your bank account at ATMs (and over phones or internet if you have a special phone/device. And yes this is secure, it even won some prizes). Once the the money is on the card it is considered the same way as cash. When you buy things with it, there is no connection with a bank computer or anything, and you dont need a pin, you just push 'ok' when the right ammount appears on a display. Paying takes about two seconds. And your name or bank account is not transferred to the person you pay. If you lose the card, you lose the money on it. It has a loading limit of 200$. ;)).
It is now accepted almost everywhere (bakery, newsstands, candy and softdrink machines,barbers shops, even pooltables,...). For small ammounts, it really complements VISA and debit cards. In fact, I haven't used cash for over a month now (I dont do marihuana though
Forget about cash in the future. In Belgium at any rate.
You can find more info on http://www.banksys.be
In belgium there is a quite wildely accepted form if this: Proton cards.
Actually, it's integrated in a chip on your universal-plastic card. (universal as long as you stick with services from a single bank)
I had the very logical toughts on cracking this, but I saw the security sheme, and it's pretty tough.
The chip has it's own processing power aboard (altough no electrical power, that's delivered by the cardreader) and works with an authorisation sheme based on not requiring the exchange of keys. Just results of mathematical, one-way modifications to a number the chip holds or something...
As a side note, it's limited to 5000Bef, (124EUR) per card.
But it's damn easy: enter card, marchant enters amaount, and you press "ok"
I haven't used a credit card or a check in two years.
When I buy something, I pay cash.
Fortunately, my bills come with a bar code. When I want to pay them, I can take them to any bank or post office or convenience store and pay them with cash. Believe me, this is even more convenient than paying online. (Since I do it as I am buying something else.)
I get no junk mail, other than fliers for pizza places or other handbills that come, not through the postal service, but by some guy stuffing them in my mailbox.
I just had a few months off, thanks to the dot-crash and guess what? I was fine because I didn't have to worry about credit card payments.
When I lived in the states, every semi-major purchase was followed by a slew of junk mail. Every move was watched.
Here in Japan, a good percentage of people buy new cars with cash. They go to the ATM, take out the money and take it to the dealership. End of story. (Here, the daily withdrawl limit at an ATM is around $25,000, as opposed to the $500 limits that are common in the states.)
The cars are cheaper because of this. If you tried that in the US, you'd have the FBI asking you questions, because only drug dealers try to buy new cars for cash.
I've never had cash stolen, have you? Are credit cards really that much safer? (egghead.com)
When I used credit cards, I had a lot more trouble. Now, I just go to a store and buy what I need. I'm not lacking in choices and you wouldn't be either. Plus, you are supporting some local person who pays taxes in your own community - In effect, an amount roughly equal to Visa's share of the purchase instead goes to your schools and roads. (And to the police who help insure that you live in a place where cash doesn't get stolen.)
So many Americans have been convinced that using a credit card is a necessity for emergencies and convenience. Forget it - the house always wins - if you are using them, you are handing a *lot* to the credit card company - your money, your demographics and your privacy. (I won't even touch upon people who just pay the minimum each month...)
Using cash is in effect an anonymous proxy on your spending habits. Are you ready to give that freedom up?
Some poster proposed that the only necessary uses for cash were to pay strippers and buy marijuana.
That's sad. Do you REALLY want visa to know your every move? For a group that actually thinks about privacy issues, I am surprised by the number of people who willingly allow themselves to be logged on every purchase, every dinner, every stay in a motel and every phone bill?
Soon, I suspect, it won't be possible to buy an international plane ticket with cash. I guess that's the time I stop going back to the US...
Jim in Tokyo
-- My Weblog.
IIRC, Moon Moth was about an interstellar cop trying to catch a criminal in a society where everyone worn face masks of different design depending of their mood and intent, and spoke in a complex mix of modes to match.
That is correct. And their economy (as it were) was based on strakh (karma/reputation). Why do you contradict me? (Your title is "Not Moon Moth, but some other").
A dingo ate my sig...
I think that many of the dot coms were leaders in the area of being cashless. Think about it.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
Everyone says it wrong!! It's InterAC, not InteraCT!!
This is mostly for the paranoid, which is why /. is a good place for it :)
I like cash because you can keep your privacy a little easier with it. I use my check card for almost everything but every time in the back of my mind I know that information on my spending and even my physical location are being recorded. For example, if someone got ahold of my monthly bank/credit card statement they would be able to roughly know where I've been going and what I've been doing. My strategy now is to get cash at the same couple of ATMs on a regular basis and use it as much as possible. I trust my credit union, but only as far as I can throw the teller.
> even though IRS taxes are voluntary [arrowplastics.com]).
It's great to see other people finally learning the truth !
Here's a very interesting thoroughly researched document entitled The Great IRS Hoax. It has 1600+ (!!) pages documenting that the Income Tax is based on Voluntary Compliance.
~~
"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history,
whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small
elite." - Thomas Jefferson
...for small purchases. For small purchases, especially those with tiny profit margins like fast food and vending, using ATM cards is not practical because the transaction fees charged by the banks/credit card companies are larger than the profit the proprieter would have made on the transaction.
There's a couple possible solutions to this. One is to change the pricing scheme of the fees charged by the banks/CC companies, but I'm not really sure what motivation they'd have to do is such a thing.
The other solution, and one that a lot of companies are trying (disclaimer: I work for one) is to offer their own cashless payment system with low/non-existant transaction fees, and gain profit through other means such as selling marketing data and/or making interest from the money stored in users' accounts.
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
The real question isn't whether it's feasible or not. The fact is that it may becoming inevitable. It won't be long before a $500 office printer can produce counterfeit currency that will fool anyone who doesn't have special equipment and at appear page cost that allows U$5 to be printed en mass.
Alas, not gonna happen. Yes, laser printers and inkjets are getting better and better. But there are issues that they can't overcome (with US currency, anyhow).
#1 - The stock is only available from one papermill, who sells it exclusively to the government. Making the paper itself pretty hard to come by.
#2 - Security bands woven through the paper
#3 - Color shifting inks - Haven't seen any of those for Epsons as of yet...
#4 - Watermarks...
Then there are things like microprint which are far beyond the resolution of any desktop printer. So no... Making money isn't nearly as simple as you'd think!
I saw the craziest thing at an Arby's. They actually turn their push button registers around and make you punch in your order! Basically, all the person behind the counter had to do was give change.
sin(pi*X/(n*2) can equal 1 or -1
if 1, sin(pi*x/(2*n)+sin(pi*n/2) must equal 2, 1, or 0.
if -1, it must equal -2, -1, or 0. These are the only possibilities. Thanks.
Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
Has anyone else noticed that it's actually hard to use cash in some situations? For the most part, I'm totally cashless. I have a central checking account and a debit card w/ the Visa logo. So rather than go to the ATM, withdraw some 20s, and spend them. I just go to a place of business and they withdraw the exact amount for me.
But what about the people that prefer to exclusively use cash?
I worked in a computer retail store for a while. And when people came in and bought a high-high-end PC or laptop with just cash, you'd better believe we noticed it. When someone peels 20-30 $100 bills off a stack, everyone in the store craned in for a better look. And we checked all that money verrry carefully.
A similar story was told to me by a friend who worked at a candy factory. The janitor at the place had just bought a brand-new car, but was complaining that the dealership almost wouldn't sell it to him. Why not? Because he had paid in CASH. $26,000 in cash. He actually brought the stacks of bills to the dealership in a briefcase, all ready to go. And, of course, the dealer was a little suspicious about someone carrying that much cash.
So you see my point? How is it that we have come to trust pieces of plastic or signed pieces of paper as opposed to cold, hard, cash? Somehow America has embraced a further level of abstraction from specie to the point of almost rejecting other forms of payment. It just seems like curious situation to me. I'm not sure if I like it or not, though. Like I said, I'm almost totally cashless. But I'd like to believe that if I wanted to switch to cash-only, I'd be able to use that money for whatever I want. Now I'm not so sure I could.
4-star general in a one-man army.
I am seeing a whole lot of posts about "cash is anonymous and untraceable" and so forth.
Hint: NO ONE GIVES A RAT'S ASS ABOUT WHAT YOU BUY. Jesus H. Christ on a cracker.
This will be moderated down as flamebait or something, because it's the common slashbot opinion that the NSA monitors everything you do, forwards the information to the CIA, who analyses it, makes a profile of you, and sends it off to AOL Time Warner, Microsoft, and 3 other large corporations so they all know everything about you.
Better watch out for the CIA's new satellites that shoot mind reading rays. I hear tinfoil hats would deflect them pretty well.
What about panhandlers, who depend on "throw-away cash" like nickels and dimes? I doubt even a good hearted person will stop to spend five minutes to swipe their card, enter their pin, and donate a lowly
Okay, here is i far out proposal.
First some assuptions:
I assume that one should be able to calculate some ratio of how much new money is put into circulation to how much the government collects in combined income taxes that same year (or some subsquent year with a well defined delay).
now statistically i'll assume that the spending habits of the bulk public are fairly predictable, and that any one "dollar" will go through some predictable and estimable (on average) number of different people in a year.
Okay, so say there is a government imposed transaction cost on each smart card transaction (something small percentage-wise), but that money just _vanishes_ because there is no centralized clearing house or anything that gets any data back from the transactions.
Now the fun part. Instead of collecting money as income taxes, the value of the dollar has been raised by this slow drain on supply, and it's even a predictable amount of drain (within statistical limits), and so the government can "print" that much new money, as revenue for itself which if all the statistics have been balanced correctly should equal what it was taking in taxes before, but with one key difference. Now, there is no flow of information back to the government, and no need for central clearing, and plus the government wins because nobody is immune to taxes, and the people win because nobody is breathing down their necks about how much they spend, where, and when.
Now, as a libertarian, i don't like giving money to the government, because chances are 9 out of 10 they are going to waste it on large and inefficient beaurocracy or use it to abuse the people, so it's hard for me to say this, but if i don't trust them with my (or anybody's) money, i _certainly_ don't trust them with my information.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
...wrong guy...
Lack of privacy.
While being acceptable anywhere, cash has the very important advantage of preserving anonymity - a feature that the government would love to see eliminated. With electronic methods, everything you do is archived forever for them to check up on. Though I do use both electronic and paper methods, I try to use cash whenever possible.
You may ask, so what?
Think of all the drug dealers, international terrorists, and other ne'er-do-wells that deal in large quantities of cash, plus the people all over the world who stuff their mattresses with greenbacks because they don't trust their local currencies or banks. Every million dollars resting in someone's suitcase is a million-dollar interest-free loan to the United States government.
According to this US Treasury report (see Table 4), there are about $550 billion worth of US cash (not counting what's sitting inside bank vaults) floating around the economy. If everyone holding those dollars decided to exchange them for euros, it might put a bit of a dent in our economy.
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
When ya all stop using cash, it's time for FightClub and project Mayhem...
September 11th 2001 was PopCorn compared to that ...
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
What will this do to the banking industry?
The true heart of any bank is the "big safe place to put your money". With the government being that big safe place (theoretically) investing your money, will the bank (as we know it) continue to exist?
I recall a Scientific American article some years ago about how PKI can be used to create digital cash--it has positive characteristics of cash, esp. not traceable by banks or gvt. like credit cards are currently.
m .html
A google search of "scientific american digital cash" turns up several realted articles over time, this is the one I was thinking of: http://ntrg.cs.tcd.ie/mepeirce/Project/Chaum/scia
Achieving Electronic Privacy
A cryptographic invention known as a blind signature permits numbers
to serve as electronic cash or to replace conventional identification. The author
hopes it may return control of personal information to the individual.
by David Chaum, david@digicash.nl
This article appeared in Scientific American, August 1992, p. 96-101. Copyright (c) 1992 by
Scientific American, Inc.
Geez, get a grip. The US Govt. literally has
a license to print money, and you're complaining
because the printing costs so much? The fact
is, the fact that a dollar bill is worth a
dollar more than pays for its printing and
replacement. This is called "seigniorage". The
US Mint shows a *profit*, not a loss.
Chris Mattern
The only time I get cash is when something requires it. Eg: street vendors, computer swap-meets, yard sales, etc.
And I will go out of my way to visit places that do not require cash but will take a credit card. Why do I rarley eat at McDonalds anymore? Simple: They don't take my check card. My Code Red Mt. Dew slush at 7-11 goes on the check card.
Besides, its a wonder how much I save since I don't have access to most vending machines/etc without cash.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/on2/money/history.html
. ht ml
Includes a nice timeline.
http://www.mintmark.com/moneyhistory.htm
Covers mostly coinage, but a good overview
http://minneapolisfed.org/econed/curric/history
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis covers the reasons for money, and some history of paper money.
and for lots of great links (from the co-author of the book "A History of Money: From Ancient Times to the Present Day"):
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/money.html
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/llyfr.html
-mrv
Come to NZ if you want to get close to cashless. Besides all the usual bits and pieces you mentioned New Zealand has an EXTREMELY widespread EFT-POS system (Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Sale )which uses ATM systems to directly debit your account and transfer the cash. No having ETF-POS isn't new - you guys have it in the US (though I believe you may call it somethign else). The difference is that I can fully expect to drive out to a small town, population of 2000, walk into a random store, and have EFT-POS. The penetration of the system in incredible, you can ALWAYS expect to be able to pay by EFT_POS, cash is almost never required.
Jedidiah
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
It certainly costs money to manage the supply of paper bills. This is factored into your taxes.
And if the US mint is profitable (I dispute the claim), then this profitability is as worthless as the USPS claim of profitability - ANY organization can make a profit when they can set prices at a whim. In private industry a profit demonstrates efficiency. For government agencies without competition it simply means they set prices unreasonably high - as would be the case for any organization that does not compete.
As for a "dollar being worth a dollar" - when has this not been the case? The value of the greenback is only relative to other currencies.
bukcethead playing with g'n'r?
dear god, that might be something to hear:+)
Have they listened to some of the shit
he's recorded?!
I think the main advantage of a cashless society is that it can reduce violence.
In the past, there were lots of situations where people needed to carry large amounts of cash. These people were then in danger of physical violence from people who wanted that money. Nowadays, the only people in danger are people around ATM's (and the people who fill them)
Also, a lot of break-ins and robberies probably don't occur anymore. Now lots of normal businesses don't need huge amounts of cash.
I wonder about supermakets that give cash-back on your atm card - I wonder if they break even or not?
Another facet to this is the insurance industry. I think having insurance has made other crimes less of a big deal. For instace, car theft. In the past, you were out of luck (In a lot of countries, you still are). But here if your car gets stolen, you're stunned, but a check comes in the mail and you get over it.
There is a distinct class of payments that I'm seeing ignored here: person to person. If I want to lend a friend of mine $5, get paid back for something I picked up for a friend, buy pizza for a bunch of people or simply leave a quick tip it isn't feasible to use some form of electronic money. In some cases it would merely be inconvenient (going to the bank to transfer funds assuming it can't be done online, but still having to wait a day to get the money) but in other cases it might not be possible (I can't run out and grab sodas for everyone if I'm broke and I can't sign on someone's card). In either case you lose something, be it privacy, security or convience that ruins the situation.
For example my school has a cash chip on all ID cards, but almost noone ever uses it. I don't personally for a variety of reasons: not all machines use it (sometimes some locations have a few card machines and a few cash, but not always), the chip itself is very easily damaged (I keep mine in my wallet and after 2 years of general use it's in very poor shape), it's not very convenient (you have to remember exactly how much you have on it and can't take it off if you want), but most importantly there isn't a universal system in place. Likely some people will only take Visa virtual money and some others AMEx or such... why put a few bucks on my cash card when I can use my cash bills anywhere I want? Similiar things occured at the '96 Olympics in Atlanta. I had a cash card from Coke (I was down on a comp. trip) for $20 and it was more or less impossible to ever use it.
In short a cashless society might be advantageous in some ways, but cash will still be very useful in a large number of transactions precluding a fully cashless society.
I wait tables and at least 50% of my tables pay in cash. Moreover, I take my tips home at the end of every night in cash.
The president has been kidnapped by ninjas!
Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president?
Not Alamo. I make a point of using them because they accept debit cards.
Where I'm living (New Zealand) it's a legal requirement for businesses to accept cash as payment if that is what the customer wants to pay with.
I'm not sure exactly how it's worked out, but I think it applies specifically if you accept bank deposits for something (which is the only other type of money by definition), you have to accept an equal amount of cash as an alternative. It probably doesn't apply with barter systems.
The main reason for this is partly what you've just talked about. People need the option to pay for something without the risk of being tracked.
The other reason is that by keeping cash money relevant the government can be aware of how much legitimate money is out there, since bank deposits are just an abstraction of real cash. Even though they can inflate it lots of times by being loaned and re-loaned, they can't exist without it.
I bet this future "implant" is also currently known as "the mark of the beast"
I rarely use cash as it is. Groceries, gas, shopping, restaurants, movies, laundry, and so on are all paid via debit card. $20 lasts me a couple of weeks with my cash only going towards places that do not accept debit (fast food, Jamba Juice, Ben & Jerry's). If these smaller establishments could accept plastic, then I would be cash-less. It's a lot easier to swipe a card and enter a pin number than to pull out cash, count it, and put change back in your purse or wallet.
I lost a First USA credit card last month. I cancelled the card within four hours, but now there's a couple of transactions on it that I didn't make.
First USA tells me that they will send me an "affidavit of fraud" (which they haven't yet), and that when I send that back, they will remove the charges within "60 to 90 days". Meanwhile, they will charge me interest and late fees on the fraudulent charges, but I can call them every month to have them revoked (if they're in a good mood that month).
Plus, who knows what First USA is telling the credit reporting agencies about my credit now?
This is costing me hundreds of dollars in my time on the phone with them every week, plus it might cost me thousands of dollars when I go to buy a house. Fuck this. I'd be better off if I had dropped $200 on the floor in the local mall.
And, oh yeah, it's none of Ken Starr's damn business what I'm buying at Barnes and Noble these days.
> If the banks go under, they are insured, right? By whom? The US gov't. Who pays for the US gov't? Taxpayers. So we taxpayers are held responsible for bad business decisions of the country's financial institutions.
Um, you missed a step in your logic. See, the government insures the bank deposits, and taxpayers pay for government. But, the insured depositors are to a large extent those same taxpayers (you pay tax money to depositors if any bank fails, but if it's your bank that fails, the other taxpayers pay you). So, what we're really doing is participating in a mass insurance underwriting effort, albeit compulsory. The tradeoff is that banking policies have to be cleared with the SEC which ensures to some extent that bad business doesn't get so far out of hand that banks fail. Barring criminal activity, there hasn't been a major bank failure in quite a while, which is some indication that the system works.
> The Fed governs how much money is in circulation. As they add more "dollars" inflation grows because there is no real value behind it. The value is just spread through more pieces of paper, so each one is worth less.
This is a bit oversimple. The whole concept that printing more money causes inflation is an overextension of how monetary policy works. Since the actual paper money in the economy is only a very small part of the money supply, printing more bills isn't really going to have an effect on the economy. Some monetary policies can cause inflation of sorts, like decreasing the reserve rate, but mostly it's fiscal policy that causes inflation.
> This was what caused the Great Depression.
Not exactly. What caused the Great Depression was that the economy had gotten extremely built up in spite of there not being any good reason (much like the tech bubble that we just saw), and then in a very short time investor confidence in the market simply disappeared as people tried to get out before the fall really gained momentum. Virtually overnight, the value of the market dropped by half, and once the fall started, people rushed to get their investments out, which caused the market to fall even more, to the point where banks which had underwritten the pumped-up market didn't have enough liquid assets to satisfy all of the people bellying up to the teller windows for cash withdrawals. This caused those banks to have to shut down, preventing people from getting their money and started widespread panic that led to even more withdrawals. After this, for many years people were loathe to put their money at risk by depositing or investing it, so there was a shortage of lendable funds and so loans for economic expansion were all but nonexistent. It took WWII to convince people that investing was important (remember the war bond drives), and the rise in investment and employment jump-started the economy.
BTW, IAAE (I am an economist), so I can say with confidence that a cashless society will not be our downfall, because as soon as the demand for cash is created by a too-powerful government, cash (in some form, and probably not sanctioned by the government) will reappear. If you think of money as only greenbacks, consider online money like Ploids for an example of non-sanctioned money.
Virg
P.S. The economy is already backed by something of substantive value. That thing is the collective earning power of all of its members, and historically, that's been a very solid base for an economic model. I read through the Constitution Party's platform on money and banking, and in addition to the obvious question of why it's necessarily bad that the Federal Reserve Bank is privatized, I'm left to wonder why currency has to be backed by a precious metal to prevent the economy's falling apart. It seems not to have needed that particular crutch for the last 180 years.
Here in the UK, when our new £20 notes were released, a journalist took some notes to a pub and asked people if they were genuine or not.
Most accepted them without question, despite the word FAKE printed in 72 point type on the back!
Once the notes are scrumpled, no one gives a damn about microprint, watermarks, multicolour or even the embedded silver stripes.
Lets face it, either you can buy a beer with it or not. If it buys beer, who cares if its fake.
Or: just try using a real Scottish fiver in London.
Now.. I'm a cash advocate. I believe in cash. Completely.
Do I use credit cards, atm cards, cheques, etc? Of course> I LIKE them. They are convenient.. and I know I'm trading some privacy for convenience by using them. I have bank accounts. Same deal there.
But they are all services to HELP ME DEAL with my cash... and I still view it that way.
Fundamentally, I can still go the bank, withdraw all my cash, and go somewhere else and deposit it, anonymously.. and that's what it's all about.
Cash already has serial numbers. Video cameras are dirt cheap. Computers and disks keep getting cheaper. When you spend cash, video takes your picture, serial number gets scanned when the bill goes into the register. They can track all the bills by serial number, all the people by face recognition. They'll know who was the last known owner of that bill that you spend, so you can't be taking in too much cash on the side. Counterfeiting becomes much more difficult. The government gets all the advantages of cashless society (ie crime gets much harder) and we get to keep the convenience of cash. Gallop has already developed much of this technology. "Hey, Mr Storekeeper, we'll give you free security cameras if you just let us look at the pictures to see who is buying what at your store." Link it to serial number tracking of the bills, and we have total visibility of economic activity. Dave Brin is right. Privacy is dead. The fair thing to do is to make sure that it is dead for everyone.
Cash or cards all do the same damage.
Want to do some good with your spending power? Local Exchange Trading System ( LETS) supports your local community, not a"global" economy.
- Derwen
http://fsfeurope.org/
I'm sure that if U.S. dollars were eliminated as legal tender, the drug dealers would find some other easily-transported and untraceable medium of exchange.
Just because they are criminals, does not automatically mean they are stupid.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Since my earnings are automatically transfered to bank accounts, I don't get pay "checks". So cash is expensive for me: bank fees, cash advance interest, etc. So are we moving to cashless society? I am, it's too expensive otherwise! :)
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
However, the more I think about it, I realize that with some careful consideration and common sense legislation, both could be a great boon to us.
If the government is able to receive real time, compleatly accurate consumer and business spending information (in the aggregate, of course), it suddenly has access up-to-the-second and 100% reliable data for forming economic indicators, which are at best currently formed quarterly.
At that point, the governments economists can catch onto economic trends quickly and react before any major problem begins to occur. From an economic standpoint, it would be wonderful.
The other issue surrounds marketers collecting information. I can't seem to understand the danger in this. I for one really want marketers to know what I'm interested in; We have a real chance to change the role of advertising from a broadbased attack on our senses to facilitate brand reconition for products and services we don't need or want (current) to a tool that educates us to the availibility of products and services we genuinanly would like to know about.
The only key to making this work is a continued diligance in making sure our lawmakers are very specific in the drafting of legislation so information does'nt belong in the wrong hands: For example, governments can only collect data in the aggregate and cannot submit individual information to law inforcement. Or Advertisers can only collect the most basic of demographic information (zip code, income range) about us.
The Internet is generally stupid
Impala? 4x4? Big screen TV?
:-)
I think we know what kind of hick we're talking to here...
Here in New Zealand were pretty much entirely cash-free - EFTPOS (i.e. automatic in the shop electronic transfers) are available just about everywhere - including the smallest cornershops and service stations (at the pump!), and of course Direct Credit payments take care of all the regular bills etc.
I was recently overseas travelling through England, France, Greece and Thailand and was actually taken aback by the low level of automatic transfer options such countries have - where ATMs are actually quite scarce (well - compared to New Zealand anyway!).
I like having some cash in my pocket (for playing games of pool, or making small purchases) as it saves on bank fees!
> I like having a monthly summary of how much I've spent, where I spent it, and when I spent it. It makes planning easier and more realistic.
You then must consider whether you like others having a summary of how much you spent, where you spent it, and when you spent it. Then, when your insurance carrier finds out that you frequent the vending machines too often and raises your premiums, you'll wonder how it was you managed to give up so much for convenience.
Virg
Two thousand years ago, the last living Apostle of Christ, John, sat in permanent exile on the Island of Patmos, and was given a glimpse of the future of human history, which he committed to writing. It is our last book of the New Testament, called simply "Revelation".
At the time this was written, around AD 100, the "technological feasibility" of the prediction was simply inconceivable. Ironically, we are forced by the passage of time to instead consider the feasibility of predictive prophecy. And just as no one could imagine a worldwide cashless economy in AD 100, few can imagine that a prophetic vision of that economy could possibly be divinely inspired, now that we live in the enlightened year of AD 2001.
We now see ourselves living in an age where we are asking feasibility questions about a cashless society. But for the most part, we aren't asking those questions in the context of prophetic expectation. Only a whacko would, right?
The concepts of the "Mark of the Beast" and the Antichrist are well-known to most of us, but mostly as a pop-culture punchline. They were once concepts which inspired nothing short of terror in their consideration. They are now simply formulas leveraged for b-grade Hollywood horror films or are the basis for corny, "dangerous" deathmetal songs. As symbols and portents, they have been drained of their intrinsic terror and are now like Sartre's "Flies", which only have the power to torment those stupid enough to believe in their potency.
Vexingly, the Christian would counter that the symbols HAVE to be drained of their horror and emptied of biblical context before the world is ultimately confronted with them in the actual- otherwise, they would not succeed in being adopted by the masses... That this very thread itself is contributing in a tiny but necessary way to the further proliferation of the idea of a global cashless society, softening our resistance, removing it from its original prophetic context.
The non-believer is forced to laugh at the solipsism, the circular reasoning of the silly Christian who can not escape the bonds of dogma and should not be allow to infect others with their contagious Cassandra complex. So some old Jew-for-Jesus on an island made a lucky guess- is that any reason to become a paranoid, jabbering bible-thumper?
Slashdot frequently touches on subjects that avail themselves, directly or indirectly, to the mentioning of biblical prophecy. But given the scientific disposition of many on
I would normally in closing offer a specific conclusion, but it seems only proper in this instance to instead simply ask a question. If a cashless society ultimately comes about, and if mankind is ultimately required to subject their very person to some physical alteration (be they barcode tattoos or microchip implants or what have you) in order to participate in the system, who would resist it? On what basis would anyone who didn't believe in prophecy, Antichrists, Hell or God, even resist?
Several issues.
In order to have a credit / debit card, you MUST have a bank account. Having a bank account cannot be a requirement to exist or be a citizen.
Debit cards also have daily limits and credit cards have monthly limits. The debit card limits are generally small (although usually larger than the daily cash limit.) Checks don't have any such limits. I was really surprised once when I had over $40K in checking and had my card denied for a $100 grocery purchase due to a purchase earlier in the day.
In order to make a transaction via credit / debit. you need a form of communication between the merchant / bank. It's all to frequent where the machines don't work, or phone lines are out.
You can no longer give your son / daughter a twenty - you would have to do a transaction via public / private terminal. What a pain in the ass!
Garage sales would be unable to take payments.
The privacy issue alone is so massive that any attempt at going cashless would be shot down.
The list of problems goes on and on. While I do use debit / credit (mostly credit due to fraud / liability issues with debit) I still use cash when realistic. I don't need corporate america or the government knowing everything about me.
I had a job that had me traveling a lot, like 30-40% of the time. Doing simple things like sending a check to pay the bills, became really complicated when you weren't at home!! The bank I was at required $7.95/month for online access, and required you to use Quicken for it. Stoopid. So I found another bank that let me do all that for free! And more!
Now I rarely write a check -- if I do, its for church offering, and maybe rent (the management office tends to screw up my rent check if it's from the bank). Otherwise, I have automatic bill pay -- I tell the bank how much to send to who, and that's about it. Some are the same every month (car loan), and I even have some utilities sending bills straight to the bank! It's wonderful . . .
The whole cashless/checkless world is coming. I see checks fading out more quickly, more because of privacy issues, it's cheaper, and more convinent (Guys - how many of you like to carry a checkbook around all the time??). If you use a debit card at a grocery store, they like it because the money is moved to their account quicker (at the "point-of-sale", POS, POS machine, get it?), you like it because no everyone in payment processing at the store sees your address, and you get through the line quicker (no more having to check your driver's license). I've been to several restaurants that do not take checks at all -- just cash and credit cards. Of course, I've been to one restaurant that only takes cash -- no credit cards, no checks. But they do have ATMs inside! =)
For the record I discoverd this the hard way.
I was paid in a single $500 bill for a job I performed on a Friday evening and fond myself with no other cash on Monday morning. (I keep very little cash for secrity reasons).
Fortunatly The bank tested it and I was able to get local curency within minutes.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
We have a high rate of adoption for EFT-POS (Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Sale), which means you can quite happily go for months without ever needing a note of any denomination.
My pay gets Direct-Credited into my bank account, and i usually carry no dollars in my wallet at all.
Parking in the city is an exception, at least where i live, since the only currency accepted is notes and coins at the boots and 'pay and display' vending machines.
Still, this is a relatively minor problem, as you can buy bus passes or a prepay parking card with EFT-POS
Practically all gas stations, supermarkets, retail shops, bars, cafes and anything else you can think of has EFT-POS available to make purchases, and it is extremely rare to find a shop you cannot use EFT-POS in, at least in the main cities.
If somebody wanted to bet me ten thousand bucks i could survive for 3 months without ever handling a note or coin, i would take that bet in a second.
You can even use EFT-POS to pay for pizza deliveries.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
you think you are cashless, but really you are just passing the buck along to someone else (in most cases, your bank.) For example, two thirds of the "online bill payments" you send end up as checks that get sent off to somebody to be cashed.
Personally I'd like to see the end of plastic cards and the use of implanted biochips, kind of like the electronic tags inserted into pets to register them. My "chip" would contain data about who I am and some unique ID number.
The reading computer can then look me up and retrieve additional identifying data from a central trusted source. For example: a retina scan, finger print data, facial map, voice analysis
So when shopping, I swipe my tag to give it my ID, and then stare into an infrared camera to take a retina scan. The shop computer checks my details, confirms I am who I say I am by comparing retina info, and then deducts the required amount from my account. I don't even have to sign anything.
I think this is cool on a number of fronts:
1) I don't need to worry about misplacing my plastic again.
2) I can't be parted from my cash source by a pick pocket.
3) Short of taking a knife to me and inflicting serious harm, I've very hard to rob at all.
4) The tag can be used for a number of things as well as money, e.g. to unlock building or car doors, log me into my computer, etc.
5) It's quick and convenient.
Anyone remember the PAN (Personal Area Network) work that IBM did a few years back. If the biochips are nano-engineered, they might be able have this capability too. You could download specific programs onto it for specific purposes just by touching a panel. The uses are many
Hey, a man can dream
Macka.
who took us off the gold standard, in 1973.
I don't use cash for two reasons:
1. When I went to school in at night in Philly (Drexel U) getting mugged was a real possibility. I just stopped using cash.
2. I'm cheap. Now that I have a real job I go out to lunch almost everyday. With a credit card I can tip the 15% - 20% that I want. With cash I usually start at 15% - 20% and then take it to an even dollar amount. In time, that extra money adds up.
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
By Margaret Atwood? Never heard of her? Well let me fill you in:
The story is set in a future, in which women have been marginalized by a theocratic state by freezing their bank accounts. One day, the women woke up and found that they couldn't buy anything without the approval of their husband or father. All of a sudden they were virtual slaves! Atwood paints a pretty bleak picture under this scenario.
Think about it: Do you really want a third party to be consulted for the approval of every single purchase you make? Under such a system, individuals would be subject to limitless coercion from their employers and/or the government: Vitual Slavery. A cashless society is antithetical to both Democracy and Capitalism.
Ask yourself, where does my money come from? Who gives it to me, and why?
PS: Are there any female slashdot readers? What do you think?
Wealth is having an abundance of what you need to survive. Money is a consensus we all share regarding mathematics, and its relation to scarcity of necessary goods.
You can have many zero's at the end of your bank statement, but if your bank fails, and you have not converted any of that money into real goods, you have nothing. So you starve.
Same thing could happen in a cashless society: when the network goes down, try eating your bank card!
You teenage slashdot nerds crack me up sometimes!
We are all familiar with the charity collecters standing at the side of the road ready to collect your change with a smile and for me the only time I give to charity is when I have cash. Many charities rely on cash collections to top up their revenue to workable levels. Will the cashless society have a significant effect on our giving habits, and will it become more difficult for smaller charities to survive in a chashless age?
Last I checked, the Fed had issued >350 G$ in folding paper notes. Thats ~$1200 for every US resident. More than half of it is in hundreds.
To be sure, alot of it is overseas. About 1/3 if a comparison with Canada holds. The drug trade and other illegal activity also probably eats up a fair bit, although I'd imagine they launder it {convert to bank deposits] fairly quickly.
The question remains, and I haven't found any good answer in 10 years of looking -- who's holding [hoarding] the cash? $800/capita is more than I can believe. Around $100 would strike me as a reasonable number, even after taking all the till cash into account. Where is the rest? 200,000 people with 1 M$ each? 2M with 100k$?
I've done anayses over time and in different OECD countries. They're not much different.
Did you american capitalists even think about it ? :)
When WTC happened I was 1000 miles from home. The first thing I did was go to an ATM and withdraw the limit. Systems go down, and that gas station in rural Arizona just might take a $20.
Just as an FYI, the currency of most of the major industrial countries hasn't been backed by gold (or silver, or much of anything else), since the early 1970's when the US withdrew from the Bretton Woods system. Today, the "value" of paper currency (beyond the value of paper itself) is simply a measure of the demand for it to buy that country's goods and services vs. the amount that country spends. This is the reason that we all get worked up from time to time over the trade deficit in the United States. The notion is that at some point everyone will have all the dollars (US) that they want/need and will not be willing take any more of them -- hence they lose value. Now, that's a /very/ simplified explanation, but if anybody thinks they can take their $20 Dollar bill to their local Federal Reserve Bank and get a fixed amount of gold/silver/etc. is in for a surprise (however, you might be able to get a fair amount of nickel coated copper, or vice versa).
Obviously it costs a great deal of money to manage a system of managing trillions of paper notes. These costs are amortized among taxpayers. Since the federal govt has no competition, there is no motivation to introduce a more cost effective and secure system.
That's 'cause there isn't a $500 bill. Nothing larger then $100.
---
"To know recursion, you must first know recursion."
what about other cultures and money, anything to be learned?
In the UK, the situation is somewhat similar to the US, but with a few differences: credit, but particularly debit card usage is on the increase for payment of small debts, whilst cheques are slowly going out of fashion for personal use. In the last two or three years, as internet banking has become widely available, direct fund transfer between bank accounts has become much more popular.
The situation that a lot of Americans cite for not using cards, that using them creates junk mail, simply does not happen in the UK thanks to the Data Protection Act - if a credit card company shares details of your transactions with anyone, even sister companies in the same group, then they are breaking the law and can be fined an unlimited amount, and the directors jailed. This doesn't apply to sharing the information with government agencies however, which is unfortunate, but at least that doesn't create junk mail :)
One interesting thing that I haven't seen in other countries (but may simply not have noticed) is the Direct Debit scheme, primarily used for paying regular bills like utilities - essentially you give your bank a signed mandate that a certain company may regularly take an amount of money specified by them from your bank account by direct fund transfer. Obviously, if not implemented properly, this is wide-open to abuse, so it's backed up by a set of guarantees, enforcable by law:
The creditor companies like the scheme because it means that they usually receive payment on time and do not have to keep sending you reminders and warnings. The banks like the scheme because it cuts down on the overhead of processing cheques, and because of this it's in their interests to make it easy, respectable and completely above-board. The end-users like the scheme because it means that once you've set up the mandate, there is no need to remember to pay bills on time, just to have a quick scan of the bill. The creditor companies also sometimes offer a small discount for paying by Direct Debit.
I use it myself quite a lot, and it works well - I've had a couple of billing mistakes on various bills since I started using it, one I caught before the debit and sorted out with the creditor company, one I didn't catch in time, but which the bank sorted out and reimbursed me for in 2 minutes flat.
For business to business use, however, cheques still rule, and I suspect will continue to do so for some time yet, although as with personal finances, I have seen a big increase in the use of direct fund transfer in the last few years.
I can't see cash really becoming obsolete here any time soon: for a start, as other people have pointed out, the paper cash is a lot easier to use than greenbacks - it comes in various colours and sizes depending on the denomination, and is much harder to forge too - the design of the notes changes about once a decade to keep up with whatever is state-of-the-art in repro technology, and our newest notes even have a hologram embedded in them.
Second, I think there's a rather larger 'black' economy here than in the US, which comes with the overall higher burden of taxation. That black economy will never be happy with money transfer that can be traced and logged. I think that whilst the government would love to make that economy disappear, the banks realise that it is in their own interests for that economy to stay healthy. Certainly I think the banks have a larger say in the running of the country than most other countries, not that surprising given London's status as the centre of the banking world.
Cash is private. I won't get new types of junk mail when I pay cash.
Cash is convenient. If I sell my CD's at a party or a gig, I don't have to bring a card-swiper with me just to process the transaction.
Cash is direct. I give the money to the person I want to have it, and I know that person will get it. I want the big tip to go to my waiter, who kept my coffee mug full for the past three hours while I was studying, without the money going into a pool that's shared with the guy who forgot half his table's order.
Cash is real. I can't spend cash I don't have.
Credit cards have great value for the obvious reasons. But they don't replace all of the functions paper notes and coins provide.
The major problem with a cashless culture is that, by definition, it's not physical enough in a time of panic.
:)
Back around the Y2K scare, the Federal Reserve printed up unbelievable assloads of physical cash. We're talking on the order of $300 _billion_ physical dollars. The reason was that they were preparing for a bank panic in which loads of people who go to the ATM and try to get cash out. If we all attempted to take our physical cash home without it being there.. Well, total chaos would ensue.
The big problem with a cashless society is that people feel much safer having a hard, physical object they can place their hand directly on and say "This is value" during a time of crisis.
(Note that this used to be true of gold. Perhaps we should go back to that: Every family has a few pounds of gold laying around, just in case of major emergencies!
So basically you suggest a cash-substitute so we can have a cashless society?
Then there are things like microprint which are far beyond the resolution of any desktop printer. So no... Making money isn't nearly as simple as you'd think! ----> But, as I point out in my other post in this thread, what "normal person" is going to notice all of these things in the normal course of business during a normal day?
"Thank you sir, here's your change" and put the bill in the drawer at K-mart. "Next customer, please".
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
I use my Debit Card at least 5 - 10 times a day but today I was at Wendy's and after I orderd I whipped out my debit card and the chick told me that there debit machene was broken so I had to run across the street and get cash out of a Drive-Thru bank machene. (I wasent in my car at the time) then I went back and payed for it. goddamnit this must have been the first time in a month I had cash in my hand.
Since I own a bar that only takes cash, I think I'm qualified to tell you that you're wrong.
The reason most bars only take cash is because we make more money that way. Credit cards slow down the bartender a lot: not only do they have to ring it in, but they have to get a signature. Good bartenders will parallel-process to get around this, but it still takes time. The faster our bartenders, the more drinks we serve, and the more money we make. Plus, the credit card company charges a fee for using credit cards. If you run a tab, where you hold on to the customer's card until the end of the night, the situation is somewhat better, but still not as good as cash: there's a lot more to keep track of, and a lot more potential for fraud. Plus, people tip less when they are paying by credit card, so both the bar and the bartenders make less money.
We take cash only, and have an ATM inside, right next to the bar. People are welcome to get cash advances on their credit cards before giving us cash for the drinks.
Funny stuff.
Jinushaun
No matter what you do they try to find ways to track your purchasing habits. For now, it makes it tougher if you operate on a cash basis. That way you can be certain that it will only be the government itself that will take the time to do so, so just stay out of trouble with them and you can mantain relative privacy.
I carry around a lot of cash on my person for this very reason - I do not trust businesses not to send me solicitations in my mailbox after I shop there, so I pay in cash. When they ask for a zip code I give 90210, and when they ask for a phone number I tell them random numbers beginning with valid area codes.
All to avoid a full mailbox of garbage. The junk I do receive sometimes is mailed back, or I just write "return to sender" on it and drop it in a different mailbox. I can only hope that I'm ruining someone's day everytime I do things like that, even though I know I don't. I can always hope.
Junk mail is strictly harassment, and should be punishable by law. Marketing managers should be killed after every junk mail campaign.
But I do what I can to avoid it, and that includes the use of cash.
Somethings seem to have evolved along with man and civilisation.
Hard currency and paper are both in this category, and as such are darn hard to improve upon.
Digital solutions have many practicalities that cannot really be overcome, give me analogue paper, money any day.
-- Mike
I can not understand why people persist with the misguided benefits of a cashless society, and blindly advocate development down this path. For a moment, forget about the tracking and profiling that will eventually spawn from this, developing an entire new generation of spam and junk mail. Also forget about the total loss of anonimity when you want to pop into that adult shop to buy a toy to share with your partner, or make some other once-off purchase that is totally out of character for you. Instead, think about the transaction charges and fees you will be paying. This cashless society is not something which will be provided freely by benevolant organisations. It is a money making exercise with the most incideous motives. You will in effect be paying another tax on every single item you purchase or spend money on. Everything from a bus ride, to a cup of coffee, will have a transaction fee associated with it. It may not be there to start with, but it will come. Do you remember how the financial institutions introduced credit and charge cards ? They started with eitehr no fees, or very low fees. They did not charge the stores or merchants. Then the taxing began. Now we have fees and charges which are totally out of line with the service provided, and EVERY retailer or merchant that accepts cards has increased their prices to cover their expenses or fees imposed to accept the card. The result of this is that we are already being nickled and dimed to death when we use cards. Moving to a smart-card or other form of cashless society is just the method that the Financial Institutions are promoting in an effort to skim a few bucks from every transaction made by everyone, everywhere. Don't fall for it. Keep your cash. Spend your cash. Don't blindly fall into line behind the other Lemmings to prop up the leeches and vultures who do nothing to contribute to society, yet somehow seem to be the only ones benefiting from everyone else hard work. ...Just something to think about...
Though there are many good points like making it MUCH harder to commit tax fraud and larceny, these benefits are gained at the cost of privacy.
Meaning, if I'm out and about and I decide to pick up a new adult video and I can't pay cash, someone somewhere will be able to prove that I bought it. Sure there's nothing illegal about buying Foreskin Gump or Naughty Librarians 4, but I'd rather keep certain things private.
Or what if some new revolutionary excryption program is developed that is exponentially more secure than PGP or whathaveyou. If you can't buy it with cash, when it is made illegal, they can prove that you bought it and force you to give up your copy(ies).
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
tracking your purchases has elements of big brother...
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marketing folks will love the idea of knowing every little thing you purchase, and when
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phone records are sometimes used as evidence in court, your purchases may follow
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abuse will come, spouses tracking each other, watching those purchases of suspicious items, like perfume, fine dining on work nights etc
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lies, damn lies and statistics. could your unusual purchases get you listed as a suspect criminal?
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could insurance companies raise your life insurance premiums due to your recorded high caffiene intake?
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could your employer look up your history and decide you take more holidays than your co-workers?
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if it's all electronic, where's the security? if I could fake you being at the scene of a crime, or having purchased something illegal or dangerous
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blackmail... with any type of tracking, blackmail is always a danger, especially when things may be implied and not actually be true, but the implication is enough to ruin another's life...
Maybe none of this could or would happen, but when humans are involved, it's a risk.> I mean, besides violating common sense, your
> explanation defies simple economics.
How so? When the US government prints a $100
bill, it has just *created* one hundred dollars.
It can then use that bill to buy $100 worth of
goods--or more likely, ship it to a bank and
charge the bank $100 for it--or it can replace a
worn-out $100 bill with the new one, perpetuating
the interest-free $100 loan the bill represents.
Seigniorage is not a significant part of the
government's income; any attempt to make it so
would result in massive inflation (see "monetizing
the nation debt" and why it's a bad idea). The
obvious fact remains that printing money makes
money for the government.
Chris Mattern
there is a million dollar note..banks use it to transfer money to each other...
http://www.ustreas.gov/currency/
There are two major products that came out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. --Jerem
the small people under 18? I mean, yeah, they do have those credit cards for the teenage group their parents can give them. But, a lot of parents I don't think will abid by this since they have so much going in their daily lifes, they probably won't consider it. Also, if a teenager goes to a convience store with it, he'll be undeniably questioned by the clerk. A good amount of sales go the the teenage and sub-teenage group. Think Pokemon, Tellitubbies, and video games. This is one reason why I think a total cash-less society will never be.
My counterfeit 2 cents.
I have not used paper money in over a month.
I use my credit / debit card for all the
things I purchase.
I live in a Cash-Less Society!
In our current financial environment, all the alternatives you described - checks, debit cards, online shopping, automatic bill pay, direct deposit - are all more expensive to process than cash. As a consumer you might not directly experience the added expense, but it's there. Checks cost up to a dollar or two for banks to handle. For credit and debit cards, the merchant generally pays - up to 3% or more for credit cards, plus a fixed fee, less for debit cards. Online bill pay and direct deposit are the cheapest, since these patch directly into the banks' clearinghouse network, but still as much as 20 cents or so.
While these costs exist in the system, we will never get away from cash for low-value transactions.
There is also a measure of financial risk taken by the merchant for non-cash transactions. The costs above don't include any form of insurance against fraud or other losses. With cash you don't incur the same sort of risk.
We have a long way to go before cash can be eliminated. A ubiquitous, world-wide, real-time on-line transaction processing system might do it.
A lot of countries are switching to 'plastic money' that is much harder to counterfeit.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
as a teen, i was given an atm/debit 'cheque' card at the early age of 17, it was free, comming along with a 'student' account, free checking, free this and that till i graduate from college in 4-6 years from now.
it's a great thing, it pays for my lunches at schlotski's every day (1.99$ kids cheese pizza), subway subs (4.68$ spicy italian), weekend dinners (tgi friday's, chili's, bennegan's, ect), gas, and food. even the occasional random buying spree at amazon.com; snatch soundtrack, fightclub (the novel), a clockwork orange (novel). even my copy-protected commercial music cd, 'closer', by better than ezra.
the only things today i find thati need cash for are a) fast food resturants, and b)the floral shop (they require a 15$ purchase to use crdit or debit, i usually get single long stemmed roses for the gf (6$)). then again i live in upper rich-ville, a suburb of dallas. most things here are debit/atm; although what bothers me is that you still can't get a happy meal with a coke w/o handleing that dirty green stuff. with other major food chains such as Quizno's subs, and Subway having atm things, i can't see why Micky D's or BK wouldn't have these too by now.
on another thought, plastic is probably infinitly better for the public's health interests; youdon't have to deal with disease and bacteria toting bills and change. then again, if we're not exposed to it, our immune system goes lax, we pick up some horrible disease, and die as a result. same paradox applies to using that silly bacterial gel 'hand cleaner'. sigh.
moox. for a new generation.
Personally, I think the idea of a cashless society is a good one; however, the organization in charge of it should:
As far as network organization, I'm actually in favor of a centralized system, so that all of the public keys can be kept together (yes, use RSA for this, preferably some ridiculously high-bit version; I suggest at least 1kbit keys, preferably higher).
BTW, a cashless society would work much better if it were Communist.
Hold it in your hand and watch it disappear - set it free and watch it remain.
I have heard that Canada is the number one country for per-capita direct debit/ATM card (Interac) payment use, and I believe it. I live near, and work in, Toronto, and I last used cash... lemme think... last summer for a coin-operated storage locker.
Here, just about everything is Interac. Do you have that in the US? Is it a brand name? Anyway...
Most people use it. You can get subway/bus tokens, groceries, convenience store stuff, just about anything. In fact, I even bought a hotdog for $2 from a street vendor, and payed using his cellphone hooked up Interac machine. It's amazing!
In Canada these days, anyone with a bank account gets an Interac card that can be used just about anywhere, and for those under 18, you get unlimited transactions for free, so they get you hooked young.
Perhaps it's a result of having heavy coins for $1 and $2, that Canadians don't want to carry change!
Just last month I went to the arcade... where I payed with my Interac card to charge up a barcode-based card, and played the games with that. No cash needed.
Believe me, I'm not the only Canadian who hasn't use cash in over a year. Not only young people, but the older folks use it too. It is far and away the most used payment option in grocery stores. Cheques have disappeared, only debit cards and credit cards remain.
The city of Guelph is running (or ran) a pilot program for University students to do EVERYTHING in their daily lives with a smart card. It is (or was) a smashing success.
A cashless society is inevitable. It's almost already here in Canada.
It was more than 10 years ago the last (domestic) check was used here in Finland. The level of development is inverse to the amount of checks used by Joe Average. Look at ebay; people in UK seems to live in the stone age; 'send cash or a cheque to the local bank' even though we may talk about a large amount of money. I mean; if your only way to deal with incoming cash is a local cheque or plain money something has really gone wrong.
The Germans accept money transfer (it's rather expensive from one country to another) and Americans accept credit cards (paypal etc).
The name of the lake is Toeplitz See in Austria (that oe should be an umlaut, i.e. two dots above the o). I have been at the lake in the 60's before the money has been lifted and already then there were many stories about it going around. The lake lies very beautiful in a mountain region in a deep cut valley and is very deep (was cut by glaciers in the last ice-age).
Grips
Knapp vorbei ist auch daneben.
Credit card transactions aren't paid for on a per-transaction basis in no small part because 1) the vendor pays one and 2) credit card companies make their money elsewhere - namely in the 20% interest lots and lots of people pay on the unpaid balances on their cards.
Transactions made on debit/bank cards are different though. The user directly pays for the transaction at a rate of about $0.25 to $0.50 per transaction, and then on top of that, the vendor also pays an untold amount of money.
However, the money you and the vendor pay in each of these transactions pays for a system that is inherently secure. The vendor does not have to worry about bringing the money you gave him to the night deposit box at 10 pm. This is instead handled by the bank, using appropriate security measures. The same is true of the consumer, who does not have to worry about cash being stolen or lost. The bank also provides measures that help you keep track of your spending, like internet banking, as well as other services like purchase insurance and such.
So long as banks have competition between each other for customers, they cannot raise the tax on debit and credit card transactions to rediculous levels, since their customers would simply take their money somewhere else.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
I would rather live in a place where people have no concept of money & do stuff for the good of everyone.
Dunno how well it would work though
I live in Iceland (no, we don't live in igloos :) ) and here cash "is almost extinct".
:) :)
:) This might perhaps lead to fewer crimes because of more requirements....
:)
:)
:)
I, for example, never ever use cash, except when paying in parking meters and people here are already starting thinking of paying the parking meters through cell phones ( >80% of all Icelanders have cell phones).
Credit cards and Debit cards are accepted everywhere, even on some camping places "in the middle of f*** nowhere" and everybody uses the cards like crazy, most Icelanders rarely use money.
We have already almost eliminated checks and replaced them with debit cards (that took only about 2-3 years). And the cash is next.
There are already some experiments taking place here in Iceland
involving SmartCards as "coins cards"
- the service will be publicly available within 2 years.
(In some news from VISA in Iceland, all credit/debit cards in Iceland
(and perhaps in the rest of the world) will be SmartCards before 2005)
I personally like the idea of cashless society,
You are "never ever short of cash even if you are"
- I can't buy something for $25 if I only have a $20 bill
but that isn't a problem with debit/credit cards,
in worst case scenario, you always have the overdraw @ the bank
The cards take much less space than money, especially coins
and when the smart cards will be common, you will only have carry one card that acts as your
drivers licence, identifcation card, credit/debit/coin card, your discount member card, etc.
It is also easier for you to do your home-accounting, etc.
Although some tend to spend more....
Crimes in the CashLess society will of course change and criminals will require more knowledge and different kind of skills. But hey they need to involve like the rest of us, everything is knowledge-driven now days
Call us stupid or ignorant, but most Icelanders don't have any privacy issues against card usages
- we are such a small nation (the population is only about 280000)
that "almost everybody knows everything about everybody" already
No seriously, privacy issues aren't our biggest fears/concerns.
So far our privacy hasn't been exploited although almost everything we do is linked to us through our National ID (a bit similair to the US Social Security Id)
- e.g. you can't rent a movie on video without given your National ID!
Yes, even the video rentals have access to the central National Id database,
that stores our name, age, gender, residence and marital status.
But the users of the database aren't allowed to exploit that information and they don't!
We have laws about privacy and the laws don't allow two different data sources to be joined by using the National ID without our permission....
And in the case of video rentals, they aren't allowed to store rental data for more than few days after the movie has been returned. So the rentals can't analysis their data much and categorize people...
I'm not saying that because exploitation isn't allowed nobody would ever do it if they had the opportunity.
I know that some people commit crimes... but still that would never get them very far, because as everybody knows "crimes don't pay", at least not in the long run....
I don't think many people would base their business as a marketing firm on using illegal methods of exploiting privacy.... That firm wouldn't last long...
This is quote from a American women living in Iceland, making fun of our card-usages:
"...in order to finalize the transition into a cashless society, there will be a Kronur [Iceland's local currency] burning festival, where all country men shall shall bring their paper money, burry it in the ground, drenched in amonia, and later serve it to foreign tourist, explaining to them, that this is the national food and it would be highly offensive not to eat it."
As Kent Beck, the guy behind Extreme Programming says: "Embrace change"...
Embrace the cash less society - at least it can give us a continued dotcom-like conference-topics
Instead of using network based currency transfer systems that incur very large transaction overhead, why not use digital cash? You've got a public key of some finacial institution on the card and store digitally signed and encrypted dollars in the cards memory. To pay you stick the card in a reader/writer which verifies the integrity of the money and changes the amount of dollars you have on the card. The money is stored like an electronic cashier's drawer for summation at the end of a business day and later deposited into a bank by some physical means or even transfered over a dial-up or network connection. The banks can get each other's keys to verify the dollars depoited and transfered and those numbers eventually go back to actual serial numbers of what may have been at one point paper bills. There needs be no recordkept of who spent which dollar where, just that the dollars eventually match up to serial numbers on whatever country's national bank. You can eliminate a good portion of the clearing house infrastructure needed for current electronic fund transfer thus making transaction overhead negligible or virtually nil.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Think about it a cash is what makes us feel the power of money it is what prevents excessive economic dronism. Cash though maybe amoving extiction, the essence of it still remains. I would definite like to see a $100 bill on my table rather than read a statements saying my balance is up $100. Think of all the individual subscriber money that will be wasted on service provider fees like credit card annual payments, etc.... Does it really make sense to go towards a cash-less world? I think not.
----------------------------------- Chance favours the prepared mind...
It will eventually happen when the need for liquidity out-strips the suply of M1 cash (cash in circulation).
One way the US Federal Reserve regulates inflation is by printing or removing currency from circulation. This works based on the theory of supply and demand. The scarcity of cash changes its value. With a completely cashless society, there will be no way to regulate inflation based on this method, but since there will no longer be a physical supply, there will never be a scarcity problem.
Of course this presents a new problem in that infinite availablity produces infinitely decreased value. This will be handled in two ways. First, everyone will switch to a single, world-wide currency. This will eliminate value fluctuations due to trading differences. Second, the ability to add and subtract monetary value will be highly regulated, so the scarcity factor will be moved to a cental authority.
I do not see this happening until the US, and other major world powers become debt free. I say this because inflation is a major tool used in debt management for these nations. To freeze the monetary supply, and thus freezing inflation, would wreak havoc on their plans. The only other alternative would be to build in inflation into the cashless system. This would seem pretty stupid, but it may have some tangential benifits that might make it worth persuing.
So what do we have in the meantime: Creditcards and not-anonymous e-cash systems. All those systems involve traceability of money transfers. But society simply doesn't want to give up the anonymity of a simple Dollar-Bill or the soon-to-be Euro or whatever.
Think about Illegal Financing of Political Parties, avoiding Taxation (extremly common in Europe because you simply just can't afford to build your 1000 sqare-meters house the official way), Prostitution, Pimps, Drugs. Or think about the husband who doesn't want his sex-shop bill to show up on the family-credit-card.
There are just to many people who have vital interrests in Anonymity.
Edgar
And remember, it would only be a matter of time before the government made barter, anonymous transactions or any other attempt to live outside the controlled economy illegal.
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
You have no recourse (well, no really legal recourse) when you want your money back & the online merchant refuses to refund your money - where using your credit card the credit card company will usually credit you (within 3 months of the charge) the amount & they will deal with the offending merchant.
Your complaints about being offended offend me.
Three guys are at a strip joint. A stripper comes up close to the first one and he hooks $10 into her thong. She shakes her booty at the second and he pokes a $50 bill into her underwear. She wiggles at the third guy who takes out his ATM card, swipes it down her butt, and takes the $60.
Many of you are saying that cash is anonymous. It may be more anonymous than Bill Gates' credit card but it is definitely traceable. Beware of the power of thousands of bored people connected to the Internet. Check Where's George. And that's without analyzing fingerprints, DNA, cocaine traces,...
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
no cash is likely to be synonymous with 'no anonymous transactions'.
99.9999999999999999999999999% * 250,000,000 = 250,000,000. So nobody knows what's going on, including you. What a surprise.
The US Mint makes a profit. See this article: http://www.gfn.com/archives/story.phtml?sid=9423
Since the Federal Reserve is in charge of collecting all the old notes, that agency probably takes the loss. Whether there is a net gain or loss to the US. Gov't is a question open for discussion.
Walt
Sorry, but no one EVER used Nuclear(Hydrogen, eg. Fusion) bombs in WW2. We dropped 2 ATOMIC bombs (1 Uranium and 1 plutonium, eg. Fission.)
Sorry, but there is a MAJOR difference.
James Ray Kenney mailto:jrkenney@swbell.net
Also a 1,000 and 100,000, I think.
and pills.
Buckets,
pompomtom
"There's an exception to every rule. Except for some rules"
It's all about the feds being able to monitor EVERY transaction. If there's no such thing as cash, it will be much harder to (1) traffic in illicit substances or (2) avoid paying taxes.
U.S. Democracy: born 7/4/1776, died 12/12/2000 R.I.P.