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Apple Cuts Off Under-18 Darwin Developer
Crispyking writes "Finlay Dobbie has been a leading contributor to the Darwin project, most notably
helping track down the infamous PPP-hang bug. He's been nominated to become a Darwin contributor (which comes with limited check-in privileges) but when going through the process, Apple found out he's under 18 years old, and not only refused to let him be a contributor to this 'open source' project, but canceled his
Apple Developer Connection membership (which gives him download access to the source code) on the grounds that because he's under 18, he can't be legally bound to the small-print agreement." Update: 03/26 00:26 GMT by P : Finlay wrote in email that he wasn't getting the Darwin source through his ADC account, but through a third party development project, which he resigned from as a result of all the red tape and the ADC account being disabled.
They're throwing away his donated code then right?
Apple is technically within their rights here, and it's even (arguably) a good idea. It's a shame that he can't contribute, but Apple needs to protect themselves from liability. Of course, they could accept his contributions via a proxy, I believe, and thus allow him his contributions. Still, it's a shame that we have to do this nowadays...
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
This sucks for the kid - but I can understand where Apple is coming from. Being a minor, NO contract he agrees to is valid - he could do anything he wanted to with whatever information he gets from Apple.
I understand the minor concept, and where it came from, but maybe this hard and fast rule needs to be reevaluated. But what would the criteria be?
"But we decide which is right, and which is an illusion"
Not bound to fine print eh.. does that mean he could do whatever he wanted with purchased software, ignoring EULAs since he's not bound?! perfect! reverse engineering and hacking for everybody!
Legal is legal....what's the big deal? Someone has to look out for these things. I don't see the issue.
Its not the brightest of solutions but they do need to protect themselves since he isn't legally able to agree to any legaleze. There are also laws about what information they man collect if someone is under 18 (and I don't see if he ever mentioned it before). Doesn't their signup form request an age ?
UPS Sucks
It didn't look like he was getting paid for doing the work, so why is it even any of Apple's business how old the kid is?
Kids are getting better and better at programming at younger and younger ages...I'm kind of excited to see what the next generation of programmers comes up with, but at the same time, I'm kind of scared of some of these kids coming along and knocking me out of a job!
I suggest he excercises his copyright on the code he has written until they change their minds...
Enjoy Y2K? Roll-on Year 2037!
FP FP FP TC TC TC
Apple's merely guarding their flank against potential impropriety. It might be worthwhile to see what relatively important open source developments have been released by minors. Though IANAL, if they're still undwer 18, they could break "contract" and recind Free access. Just think of the havoc this would cause of some of its code were integrated into a vital app, eh? Hoepfully this isn't too likely.
Pax Digitalia
Personally, let the kid code, obviously he's good. Get his parents to sign a guardian contract, I'm sure they're aware of his abilities, and it would make an excellent entry on a resume in the future.
Randal Graves says: I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class... Especially since I rule.
in cyberspace, nobody knows you're under 18
This sounds like such a boneheaded descision, though, that it must have come from their legal department.
Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
as an almost first post, i would like to say, fuck legalities.
Can't a legal guardian sign an agreement with Apple?
Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. -Ayn Rand
So what? Rules aren't made to be broken.
well now that just sucks, doesn't it.
Now with most laws, he could get his parents to sign the contract releasing such problems, but, he obviously violated the TOS. The government has said that anyone under 18 can't make decisions for themselves, and must have parental consent. Get that consent, problem solved.
Don't go ragging on Apple for this - if they weren't taking these steps, I'm sure a case could be made for child labour law violations.
Apple has publically admitted he is not bound by the agreement.
He could GPL all the code on his disk and screw Apple if he wanted.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
A lot of programmers these days get their start young. Its no suprise that he is under 18, but I think Apple should allow for parents to be able to give permission. After all, lots of people under 18 have credit cards, which require more responsibility than programming.
becomes 1337 h4x0r. Introduces OS X virus, crushing Apple Mac systems world wide.
Film at 11:00
Steve blows Goats(tm).
why can't he have a legal guardian perform the legal actions in his name? isn't that normal? i would think apple would do this unless they want a very ticked, intelligent group of minors seeking to rot them to the core.
IANAL, but if memory serves any contract involving a minor is non-binding. The only way it could be binding is if the contract were made on the minor's behalf by a legal guardian. That being said this should be obtainable for Finlay Dobbie.
But this brings up an important question in my mind - should we be getting minors to buy and install all our software? Would that allow us to ignore all the click-through licences?
IMHO, as per
J:)
Oh well, no point in steering now.
I get why they are doing this. I mean lets be honest here. Apple is a smart company. They want to have the best people working on their projects.
At the same time, they also have legal issues which they have to deal with. Which is what this under 18 issue is all about. Now this is in no way age discrimination. Many different things could be argued about the whole issue of being under age etc. Basically when it comes to certain contracts and stuff, if you are under 18 they don't apply to you (why do you think there are so many web sites that say - if you are under 18, you need parents permission?).
IMHO Apple needs to get some sense. They obviously have a talented programmer on their hands, why not have his parents get in on the deal (ie - they sign the agreement) while he is under 18, and when he is legal, THEN let him do this on his own.
RonB
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
I can see where Apple is coming from on this point. However, I think that they should just wait until the kid turns 18 then give him back his membership and let him become a contibutor
Back in the 1980s, many companies were willing to work with
The day when being a great programmer was the top priority may be gone. Now the first concerns are all legal issues.
Makes sense to me. Apple is acting appropriately. The kid can still contribute through an intermediary until he turns 18. If they require a contract to access their materials then all participants need to meet the requirements of the contract.
While I can't blame apple for canning him, I think their method was a bit sketchy and aloof.
On the other hand, welcome to corporate America, kiddo. Life sucks, wear a helmet.
The problem isn't with Apple. It's with the US legal system. I've never been a fan of Apple but don't punish them for something that isn't their fault. Instead of griping to Apple, gripe to your congressional representatives on how current laws are stifling our countries competitiveness on a global scale.
Maybe he could work something out with Apple where his parents sign for him?
Apple has a point here. In most places minors can not enter into legally binding agreements. This brings up an interesting point. What about licenses like the GPL, the Artistic License, or the Apache License, to name a few. If a minor releases software under one of these licenses, do the licenses apply or are they invalid since the minor can't enter into a legal agreement? How does the law treat a minor's ability to control how their work is treated?
Although he can't be held legally
to the contract, surely his parents
or legal guardians can be?
Is this the promised end? Or image of that horror? KING LEAR
What the subject says...children simply have *zero* human rights in America. They are treated like dirt most often. And then we turn 18 and we *magicly* become competent, intelligent humans (and citizens) who can take care of are selves.
Did you know that it is illegal to even be employed until one is 15 years old? I used to get all kinds of great job offers for Java development, only to be forced to turn them down because I live in this "free" country that doesn't *ever* discriminate against anyone.
Apple is being stupid altogether. And so are most people in the world, and it's not correct!
i fail to see how apple's covering their own ass is really all that bad. sure, they may have been a bit heavy-handed, but they were only doing what any sane entity would do to avoid a possible legal fiasco
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
Couldn't a parent or guardian co-sign the NDa agreement to make it legally valid?
-Karl
Could'nt apple work somthing out to where his parents signed some stuff instead of him?
...wow this this mac section is realy macish looking :)
Hacker Media
No I'm not willing to pay $49.99 for Opera, I have Internet Explorer on my Windows box and it is fantastic.
You probably paid about $49.99 for that too. Unless you stole it along with Windows.
Yeah, yeah. IHBT. I know. Whatever.
This of course just happened after being denied access to a 18 and over dance club.
:-)
I remeber thinking everything will be great when I'm 18, I can buy smokes, go into tity bars, drive.
Than when 18 comes, man I can't wait until I'm 21, than I can drink anywhere I want, man life will finally be good when I'm twenty one. But it just never comes true!!!
But don't worry, I bet everything will be great when your finally old enought to code.
However, what they could (and should) do is have one of his parents sign the license agreements and other legal agreements.
It seems that this could set quite a precedent for a lot of kiddies to abuse any EULA for almost anything.
What a great time to be under 18... no restrictions on your software usage, it would be unenforceable!
Apple is just trying to cover their own colective arses. Here's the deal, say some sub-18 year old kid decideds to take/steal someone else's code [from work, from a friend, etc.] and then submits this code to Apple. Apple likes the code, so it gets included in the Darwin source. Later it is found that the code is actually the IP of aome other company, Apple gets litigated into oblivion, as the code is sitting right out in the open. Apple has no recourse on the sub-18 year old kid.
Apple is not evil, they are just covering their own arse. Yes, I do agree that kids under 18 should be allowed to contribute, but the problem is that Apple is a corp. They need some way to make sure they are protected. "Signing" a document is a good way to do that. Falsly filling out a form is not a solution, it just makes matters worse.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
Does that mean that next time i want an oracle installation I can benchmark I should have 16 year old install it sho he isnt bound by the terms.
This is STUPID on apples part, this guy showed an affinity and a brightness devoted to apple. They have now alienated him to some degree.
Now that said , if he isnt legally bound by the terms, He could RE-Liscence the code he already wrote and Apple would be forced to remove it.
Thats it lets alienate our developer base.
I asked for certain GPL code, modified by Apple and had a hell of a time getting it (no it wassnt on FTP and per GPL didnt need to be, but I litterally had to talk to their legal dept before getting the code sent to me through the written offer clause)
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Understanding Apple's claim is one thing, but is that claim correct? Just because he is under 18, is it true that he cannot be bound by the fine print? I can easily argue both sides of any issue, so I'll stop now and argue later.
Can't his parents co-sign or something? I can't believe Apple Legal can't come up with something. They are not showing much concern for someone remarkable who has contributed so positively.
Lies about crimes
Maybe if the coder's parents signed, it would work. Also, certain states allow "removal of restrictions of nonage." This allows a minor to become a legal adult. In Florida, it just requires you to take your kid to the court house and sign some forms.
There must be some solution of ther than simply kicking the coder off the team. I didn't join ADC when I was under age, but I did write plenty of Mac programs. I don't see how throwing away young talent is a sound business practice.
t'nera semordnilap
"First thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers."
Reality has a liberal bias
"I think megahertz and gigahertz are really the only way of accurately assessing what you're buying, because it's a clear measure in terms of processor performance and it clearly states to the consumer what they're getting for their money. I don't think the chip architectures are that different. I think whatever you do with your processor the clock speed is still one of the defining measurements of chip performance, and once you put the chip into a PC, there are so many other factors that can affect the performance of the system, that coming back to gigahertz as being the key measurement is key. If you look at where we're going over the next year, we're going to be announcing faster chip speeds. We think that the core of the Pentium four processor as it is today, could scale up to ten gigahertz over the next five to ten years."
I'm 15 and have been an avid Mac evangelist since 1993, when I got my first Mac.
So this kid has been "an avid Mac evangelist" since he was 6!? I'm getting so tired of hearing young people complain how the get no respect and then tout themselves as having 9 years of experience because they've owned a computer that long.
I'm young myself - 23 years old - but I know that I have to put my time in the industry and pay my dues. I don't have 15 years IT experience becuase I had a Commodore 64 when I was 8. I don't have 8 years UNIX experience because I plyed with MUDs in highschool.
Sure, this kid helped out, and he should be proud of what he's done. But this is business, and Apple needs to be able to protect itself legally. Hell, this kid isn't even old enough to pull the french fries out of the McDonald's grease!
I really hope that they are able to work this all out. That makes sense from Apple's legal department, but not from a desire to get good code written. Perhaps they can speak with his parents and arrange for them to sign an authorization on his behalf. I really hope that a good solution can be found.
Alex
IANAL, but then again ICRGAS(*) about this. Apple are just obeying the law. I hope they can get it sorted out though, as he seems to have contributed a lot to the project.
Dr Fish
(*) I Couldn't Really Give A Shit
As minors, we always get the shaft.
Forced to act as adults, hell, we get charged as adults for most crimes.
But when we take adult responsibility and try to get some of the benefits, God no! Can't have Johnny-sixteen-year-old working anything but a burger flipper job! Can't have Johnny-sixteen-year-old driving!
Couldn't the kid's parent(s) just sign the agreement for the kid?
He could be tried for Murder as an adult, but can't program for a big company?
Are there any exceptions that are POSITIVE?
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
AFAIK, a minor can enter such legal agreements as long as a parent or guardian is willing to cosign all the paperwork. I'd think that Apple's legal team would at least look into the possiblities of various methods that would allow him to continue his work, if he is indeed of such value to the code.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
.... didn't think so...
a disgruntled ex-employee(well, more or less ...), they got one whom they cannot hold to any contracts he signed ...
Way to go.
He's a UKer...
Which means, with the legal buying beer in [pubs|shops] age of 18, and considering how those ages are enforced over here, he should be able to drink in 2, maybe 3 days time :D
tlhf
xxx
Or maybe he could just ask his parents to buy it for him, it's legal from 5+ (I think) to drink over here with your parents consent.
Fine play their game.
Send a bill for your work. Sue for illegal distribution of your work.
You obviously weren't able to legally transfer any copyrights to them, nor work without renumeration.
This could be good leverage, either treat you like a person, or don't, not only the stuff that is to their advantage.
It just pisses me off to see "minors" treated like they have no rights, when "adults" don't take responsibility for their actions either.
atquitest@bored.cc - please email me
When I was working at Apple there was a 17 year old kid working there on Copland (MacOS 8.0 1.0) What's the difference? Oh maybe Apple is no longer an anything goes college dorm. (do they still do the weekly beer bash?)
A lot of people are saying he should contribute through a proxy. I don't see how this is possible, since in order to make meaningful contributions, he would have to see the source code of the project. Showing him that source code would almost certainly violate the NDA of the proxy.
Clearly Apple doesn't want him seeing the source code, anyway, since they cut off his access to it. I'm sure he's a competent coder, but I doubt he's so good that it would be worth the legal risk they would be taking by having him aboard.
visit the hwky website for a lyrical genius infusion.
Ahhhhhh so this is why they are pushing through the SSSCA (DDBTC.. whatever), they want to stop people under 18 from using P2P completely. In that case the RIAA and MPAA could be guilty of specifically targetting legislation to restrict the semi-legitmate activities of minors (kids buy loads of CDs). Surely the extra laws protecting the rights of minors could be used to defeat the RIAA|MPAA????
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
First, I should probably explain a little about myself. I'm 15 and have been an avid Mac evangelist since 1993, when I got my first Mac.
According to that, he was a Mac evangelist since he was about 6?
C'mon! I bet he's a smart kid, but this is nuts.
I always tought the lawyers at apple were BAD. but that story is really the cherry on the cake.
Before lawyers ruled apple, they KNEW the 12 years old useless kid MIGHT become a professional developer and contribute to the apple world.
I know first hand, I WAS one of those. I received free copies of 'confidential' documentations, free access to some developer resources, a bunch of encouragment, LOTS of patience and ultimately a few friendship with some apple people that date back like.. 20 years now!
But then, I spent the last 20 years as a die-hard mac developer, writing many shelf software. so it DID pay to humor me when I was a useless and fuckingly curious kid.
And now, the morronic lawyers decide to stick by their fucking law books and ENFORCE that to everyone with the sense to realize that age has very little importance.
Burn them!
I was in a similar situation when I was 16...AT&T wanted to hire me to do unix bitchwork coding out in Seattle for some top secret project they're working on. Found out I was 16, and then called back and said, "Well, we'd just love to make good on the job offer we gave you, but you wouldn't be legally bound by the NDA. Sorry." Ended up writing a database for my uncle using MS Access for a summer job instead. Can't tell you how much more experience I would have gotten by working with Unix instead.
There is a Membership available to us under-18ers. And you can be selected by Apple to recieve Seeds. In addition anyone can download the Darwin Source, and anyone can submit bug fixes.
Big whoop. Sorry but apple is covering their own ass and do you blame them? Same thing with rental car companies not renting to under 25, or not allowing under 18 to vote. Or what most people whine about, no drinking under 21. Your below 18, enjoy the fact that you aren't really responsible for anything except violent crimes. Anyways, put my name with the people who don't give a shit.
(I wrote this at http://radio.weblogs.com/0100490/)
Finlay Dobbie published an article about how Apple effectively does not allow minors-- folks under 18-- to participate in the Apple Developer Program or contribute changes to the Darwin project.
Unfortunately, Apple's policy is a reflection of the legal status of minors within the US. The policy is largely out of Apple's control!
The problem stems from the whole COPA/COPPA [Children's Online Protection Act which morphed into Children's Online Privacy Protection Act or something like that] related set of laws.
I actually have a bunch of pertinent technical experience related to COPA/COPPA in that CodeFab built much of the back end engine used by the www.noggin.com site including the editorial tools used to manage content produced by minors.
Basically, if you are under 18, you are deemed a minor and you do not have the legal authority to sign contracts, cannot publish or contribute content that falls under another party's copyright/ownership, and are otherwise severely restricted in a legal fashion.
In other words, Apple cannot directly allow you to participate either as a Darwin contributor or as an ADC member because there is no legal way for you to effectively 'sign' the contracts required to be a member.
While Apple could extend the program such that your parents or legal guardians could give permission for your participation-- effectively signing for you-- that would not actually be enough for you to participate in the programs. In particular, for content produced by a minor to be published in a forum visible to others, several criteria must be met:
Parental consent must be obtained at least once.
Every piece of content must be reviewed prior to being made available within a forum outside of the company that effectively 'owns' the content (in this case, Apple).
If the parent's ever rescind the permission to use content, it must be possible to effectively "unpublish" the content. Imagine the implications within a CVS repository of, say, having to remove the changes in version 1.5 of a file that is now at revision 1.24...?
When a piece of content produced by a minor is actually published, it must be published in a fashion that effectively hides the identity of the source. This part is fairly fuzzy in that it is hard to hide identity when a username is the user's actual name... but the law was not exactly created by folks totally familiar with technology.
The bottom line is that Apple's -- and other companies -- hands are tied in this. They would have to put forth a tremendous amount of effort to make it possible for minors to participate. Even then, a minor could not participate in the full fashion and there is still implied liability.
If you are in this position, your best bet is to have a parent/guardian sign up for the ADC account. As far as Darwin contributions are concerned, it will likely have to be done through some other resource who is of majority age.
Does this mean that software stores can no longer sell to children? Because if they do, and the kid goes home and opens the software, does that mean that the EULA doesn't apply?
-PARANOIA is fun. D20 is not fun. The Computer says so.
-The Computer
There should be exceptions to this rule. Their 18-year old rule makes business sense, BUT, think for a moment, that even Marcelo who is the MAIN maintainer for the 2.4.x stable Linux kernel is BARELY 18 years old and he started working as a coder to Connectiva Linux since he was 13 years old.
And yes, I know someone who wrote his own operating system at his 16 years old, and he had his own company at 18.
Apple should just make an exception this time for people like Finlay Dobbie, if he is indeed a good coder.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The issue here is that heisn't 18, and thus cannot be bound by an NDA. Apple is in the business of making money and creating new ideas. In that situation, they have a very real need for NDAs, which he cannot legally be bound by.
Because he is not 18, he cannot be bound by the agreements that are required of anyone to join the Darwin Project or the Developer Connection. Given that, it isn't at all unreasonable that Apple cut him off.
The real problem is that somewhere along the way, he ignored a Terms of Service that demanded that he be over the age of 18. It is a shame that a talented developer can't contribute in all the ways he wants to because of his age, but that is just the way things are.
As usual, the Slashdot community is a little confused about just exactly what the words "Freedom" and "Fairness" actually mean. No surprise there. What exactly, rhetoric aside, is Apple supposed to have done wrong here, besides covering their IP? Regardless of your personal views on intellectual property, do you really think it is so ridiculous for a company to take steps to protect the results of its own R&D?
What ever happened to trying to set up a system that rewards youngsters for doing something good and creative with their time and punishing those that try to wreak havoc on society? It seems like, especially with our public K-12 system, it is set up so that if you misbehave to a significant enough degree, they give you exactly what you want, time off from school (suspention). (And at least where I went to high school the only way my parents found out about one time that I got suspended is that I told them.) Then if you want to do something constructive with your time like help out with maintaining computer labs, even supervised, they won't allow it. (At least at the higher levels.)
Being a minor, he wasn't allowed to license his code to them, but that doesn't invalidate his claim to the copyright. Well - his parents are probably the rightfull guardians of that copyright, but no matter what, if they can't let him contribute because he's a minor, then they can't use his code without breaking the copyright law either.
IANAL etc.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
AND THEN....???
Edith Keeler Must Die
15 years old. Accomplished coder. AND literate? I don't buy it. Where were the typos and spelling errors? We all know that anyone that geek and that young has to be a script kiddie, but at no time did he slip into l33t c0d3.
I don't buy it. He's probably a back-to-college mother of three English major just trying to stir things up.
I am 27 almost 28, and have been doing development work for the last 5-6 years. In that time I have been privileged to have work with some very bright young people. Most falling in the 17-18 year old range. They worked every bit as hard as an adult and in many ways were as mature if not more mature than many adults.
Here is the rub. The way age discrimination laws read they only apply to adults 40 years of age or older. I say this is utter crap what of the younger people that fall between 16-18. In the US most kids have their first jobs when they are 16. If the teen can show he is capable of doing the work, and doing it well let him work. In some cases they can do just as well as someone that has been doing the work for as long as me, and in some cases are more willing to learn and adjust to the needs of the group. Since when has open source discriminated on anything (ie., sex, race, or even age). Personally I would like to see someone take this and rub it in Steve Jobs' nose, because this stuff just doesn't fly!
at least in this great country of ours you always have a way to voice your opinion. At the next election he can march right up to the polls and...d'oh!
The kid is under 18. Apple had no choice but to do this. Take Business Law 101 before you spout off like a jackass.
I apologize. I just insulted all jackasses.
Does this mean that under-18 purchasers are not bound by the EULA? So that DMCA and so forth don't apply?
Hope he's allowed to get back in the fray. His talent should not be wasted by Apple, especially considering he was contributing to their profit for free.
I'm currently 13 years old and am an active part of the Mozilla project. I also have an Apple ADC membership, so this is my official notice to Apple: Take my ADC membership away if you want my username is zachlipton!
:) These kids of life-changing experiences are being blocked from kids as a result of laws intended to prevent child labor. This isn't an issue of my family being poor and needing to sell my soul to Silicon Valley so that they can eat. This is my wanting to do and learn more, something which isn't possible with a class on a college campus on java or web design.
.com's can't afford to spend money (even though the intern is unpaid) on someone who will work mainly part-time and needs a full set of computers, software, etc and requires everyone else in the company to spend time to get the intern up to speed. Besides, who wants to hire a 13-year old? Even if they do, I don't think that they can without violating the child labor laws.
I realize that not everything is Apple's fault, it is just as much our legal system and our general philosophy of how we treat the next generation.
In my involvement with opensource, the only times that I have ever been descriminated against my age was http://www.advogato.org/article/331.html (a total and complete mess) and by various run-ins with child labor laws (I'll get to those in a minute).
Creating policies like this hurts opensource and kids in general. Having to lie about your age to get a Yahoo email account is stupid and pointless. I know several very gifted and talented hackers, people writing the backend code for perl6, or working to make Mozilla/Netscape Composer just a little bit better who have done an incredible service to the community.
Below is a bit of a rant on child labor laws that I wrote in October of last year:
Also, and perhaps more importantly, how do the child labor laws which were created to protect kids from being chained to looms for hours making rugs or soccer balls apply today in the real world. I can't tell you how many stories I have heard (and experienced several personally) where kids have been turned away from great experiences because of these laws. Several years ago, I was set to TA at a tech camp that my school was running during the summer, only to find that I couldn't until I was 15 and only then with a work permit. About 8-10 months ago, I got a contract offer (by email) and a possible offer of full-time work from collabnet to do work for them with the Bugzilla bug-tracking system which I am a developer with. Of course, this offer was quickly dispensed with after I told them that I was 12 years old
Internships are too rare, already struggling
What can we do to make the opensource community and the Internet at large a place where kids are welcome? Everyone talks about making the Internet _safe_ for kids, but don't we really have to do even more than that?
Does anybody remember that this same issue came up when Corel released their beta distribution a few years ago. If memory serves correctly, they were crucified for it; lets see if Apple is held to the same standard.
'Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions.' B. Pascal
And this coder is from the UK? How does the law affect that?
The issue of age isn't the primary story here. Rather, the telling point is how Apple handled as well as Finlay's account of interfacing with the Darwin folks. Cutting off access without any attempt at communication? Making obvious code improvements painful to apply? Ditching a PROVEN contributor because an NDA can't be enforced?
All this paints Apple in a "we are dinosaurs" light. It certainly doesn't seem to me that they really "get" Open Source, rather they seem to view it as a marketing scheme or a way to get cheap code debugging.
From http://darwinfo.org/:
"Most importantly, the source to most (but not all) of Darwin is available."
Buh? How does partial source qualify as Open Source? I guess it's only "Mostly Open Source".
Anything is possible given time and money.
The program showed he was doing, and he seems to have kicked all that and went into AA, and he's not working at Apple anymore. Apple wouldn't answer any questions the reporters had about what may have been a violation of California labor laws for having someone so young work for Apple, but perhaps they tightened up their policy since then.
Obviously people under 18 are the only group of people in the US that doesn't have a lobbying group.
Apple is NOT open-source friendly! This should be glaringly obvious from MacOS X. The only development Apple did that was original is on the components that they keep closed and proprietary (the API's, Quartz, etc). The parts that are open are the components that were open to start with. It's tantamount to theivery ... considering Apple gives nothing back to the community. They are using keep business sense to get a lot of free development work and they could care less about how we're all affected.
Open source developers: STOP doing work for Apple until they start working for you. If Darwin is such a great platform, fork it and then relicense it to keep it out of Apple's grubby hands. It's not their work to begin with anyway.
Why bother.
Then he should demand they not use any of his code. That would be preying on the talents of an adolescent and probably falls under some contract or child labor law. (IANAL) They should remove his code immediately.
that when he is 18 he wont be able to drink a beer but he WILL be able to be drafted and even right now he is NOT responsible for his contractual obligations but he CAN be tried as adult if he got caught hacking into NASA. I wish we had at least some consistency in our laws (other that being inconsistent).
my $.02
These are not the
Why do they require a non-disclosure agreement to do "open source" development?
How many times are people going to misunderstand the GPL? I know it's a complex issue, but how many times does it have to be explained? Especially here on Slashdot I'd think people would get it by now.
Your homework assignment is to write 100 times : "The GPL affects DISTRIBUTION of software only, and DOES NOT restrict the USE of said software in ANY way."
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Can't one of his parents sign the NDA and an agreement to take responsibility for his actions?
BEGIN MOCKING TONE
Welcome to the new Apple Teen Coder Site! Watch our barely legal teens respond to your commands! These young teens can code in PERL, Java, and even go down and dirty with all the C varients. Watch Our barely 18 teens sign NDAs on GPLed software. Download the movies to your Apple and IPod. Watch them as they help evolve Darwin!
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
really, it has to do with the age of majority statutes here in the U.S. of A. You cannot enter any contract while you are under 18, even, I think, if you've been emancipated from your parents. Parents, technically, own their children.
In the US, you're not a real citizen until 21, and for some things, 25.
Dan
that some did something about these damn kids getting born and takin' our jobs away!
Seriously, while I agree that it sucks that the guy cannot submit code, Apple's hands are bound. Apple is a corporation that has a board, shareholders, etc. And while they would like to do otherwise it simply is NOT POSSIBLE.
I hope at least that they give him a free computer or something like that. Show him some appreciation...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Since he's not legally bound by the license, will he give away Apple's code?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Does the slashdot header have an Aqua-style theme for this (and only this) story?? Does anyone else see this? was /. hacked?
Apple is seriously shooting themselves in the foot with this. Not only are they Turning down his work, but they are turning the possibilty off to all minors. There a kids out there that know programming and networking better then me and they have never even taken a college course, and they are willing to help and be productive like Finny here, and to top it off they are sending out a negitive message to minors about themselves that will ultimatly do nothing more then hurt them.
(Score:0, Interesting)
You may be on crack, but you're not hallucinating here. Slashdot did that on purpose. Go here:
http://apple.slashdot.org/
f BSD! thank you bill joy for some of the software
in BSD but csh? what the hell where you thinking?
yellow dog linux works great on my ibook2.
You turn 18 in the US, and you can vote and (mostly) assume adult status in legal eyes, aside from consuming fermented wine, barley, and hops.
Figure BillG would be flipping burgers if his pre-18 coding wasn't legally accepted by IBM?
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
Might the young man have parents?
sigh... another bright decision by some guy in a suit somewhere, probably talking on his cell phone right now in a 1200 square foot office with half a donut hanging out of his big mouth, calling meetings and planning to "leave for the day" about 1:15PM...
Well - if he is capable of programming for Apple and still has yet to hit 18 years old, then I am sure now that Apple have dropped, another company will pick him up and pay him a nice salary.
Apples loss.. this is great publicity for the kid - he will be fighting off job opportunities.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
my 2 cents would be to tell the kid to stop coding for apple since they obviously dont want him and put his skills into linux a "truly" open source environment - if he's really as bad ass as he says he is, then he could do a lot of good for any of the distro's out and about.
Ave Molech Setting
I understand Apple's point of view.
He can just work through someone else. Let someone who's older than him review his code and when he turns 18 he can sign up and be legit.
It kind of sucks for him, but legally he's just not able to work on it yet.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
RAM copies being covered by copyright is silly but there are legal precedents (MAI vs Peak Computer is one) where that is the case.
It should be fair use, because making a copy is NECESSARY to even USE the product, and one is expected to be allowed to use a copyrighted work that one was bought. That's logical, but not in all cases what the courts have decided.
There are also legal precedents where fair use is overridden by the DMCA (the DeCSS case in the Southern District of New York)
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
if finlay was under age, but still contributed to the
project, would this not mean that all of the code he
contributed cannot be used because he was under age?
or will apple argue that he contributed code fully
knowing the age restriction and therefore use it?
i think its fairly obvious that a person with such
enthusiasism for the project wouldn't give away the
code, apple should work something out with him so
that he can either get credit for his already
contributed code, and / or continue working on the
project.
>> Dear Junior, because we can't force you to play
/. mouth is? Ha! I didn't think so.
>> nice, we assume you'll play nasty.
>> Oh yeah, great message. Add in the
>> MPAA/RIAA's "You're all thieves and liars that >> need to be controlled" and we've arrived at a >> really enlightened society where everyone you
>> don't have a strangehold on is assumed guilty.
That isn't their movtivation at all and, furthermore, the analogy to the RIAA/MPAA is poor. You need to understand this: he is a minor so no contract with him is enforceable including licenses like the BSD and GPL since licenses are contracts governing use and other rights one consents to give up for the consideration of using the code. Now imagine what happens to Darwin if the young man's code "poisons the well" so to speak because of a tainted license?
They could work around this if a person of leagl age checks-in the code and takes responsibility. Any of you whiners ready to put your responsibility where your
"The large print giveth, the small print taketh away." -- From /Step Right Up/
With a name like Doobie, he has to be up to no good. Go Apple!
call it 'Fagan code' : consider.... legally purchase code from under 16 year old developers who have accepted that code from the GPL but are no longer bound by said GPL and then relicense code to you for unlimited distribution--gpl thus is no longer valid--not a problem with binaries, as they are not distributable in such a manner--but with source code it makes a new type of clean room reverse engineering possible....sourceforge should implement adultcheck id system
I did a lot of programming between age 13 and 16. In fact, I was a much better programmer *then* than now, and even edited and contributed to a few online programming journals and Web sites.
No-one knew my age. So how did Apple find out here? If you're a youngster, mentioning your age can be mucho bad (like with this).. and if you do mention your age, and you're particularly young.. well.. no-one likes a smartass.
mogorific carpentry experiments
I'm a PC guy who's never owned an Apple, and I'm definitely not a minor (I'm 32), but I had to send them some feedback on this.
I've included what I sent below, minus all the cursing (just kidding). Everyone else here who has the time, please send Apple something similar (be polite if you really want to help Finlay). I really hate to see this happen to a seemingly helpful, bright kid.
-----------
I just read about Finlay Dobbie on slashdot.org. I then read his complete story on his personal website.
If what I read is correct and truthful, Apple has done a great disservice both to its users and itself. The fact that no alternative was given to this bright kid who had already made meaningful contributions to the Darwin project is shameful.
I guess Apple's next move will be to disallow the sell of software to those under 18, since they can't be bound by the EULAs?
By way of this feedback, I *beg* of you to forward this to someone in a position to do the following:
A) Reprimand the person responsible for cancelling Finlays account without any written notice (even after the fact).
B) Talk to the company lawyers and find out if there is a viable solution (parent co-sign, legal change of status to adult, etc.) that would allow Finlay to contribute to the project.
In his writing, Finlay seems incredibly mature about this whole ugly incident. If someone were to approach him with a solution, I'm sure he would regain his faith in your company. An apologetic letter to him about the SNAFU would also do much to redeem Apple in the public eye (I'm *sure* some Apple-hating, PC using, reporter is going to put this kid on TV when they hear the story).
I'm not Apple's biggest cheerleader, but I really enjoy having you guys around even if it's only to keep MS & the PC world on their toes. Please make right what is wrong.
Sincerely,
Apple has always been very legal about their software and hardware, even more so then any company I know. Its is common for them to screw, lack of a better word, their developers, resellers, clone makers (remember them?), and people working with them for the benefit of themselves. Ask anyone that has been any of the above. Some get angry while others just accept that thats the way Apple is.
I figure it's Apple loss and we probably all think slightly less of them than we did 10mins ago - ageist swines ;)
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
If a kid can't enter into a liscense... I see a market opening for kids to install software for users So that they do not have to enter into the Contract... I never saw the do you agree or disagree.
It's rather wise to stop contributions from minors, since that person could submit harmful code or something to that effect, and probably not be legally punishable, I'm not sure on that but it makes sense. Also, I wonder even if his parents signed off on it if he could submit code then, that sounds like a reasonable thing. Oh well, he'll turn 18 eventually, he'll probably not want to work with apple then though.
Marcelo is Brazilian.
Connectiva is a Brazilian company.
Obviously American child labor and exploitation laws do not apply.
I started developing when I was 9 yrs old. Because of California law, I wasn't able to actually get paid for my work until I was 14. At the time I was working as a developer for my Great Uncle's insurance agency doing corporate database development.
;) Anyways, I see both sides of this story. I feel that I was being shafted while under 18, but I also used it to my advantage.
This corporation is run by the books, so basically they told me I could do what I wanted, but that they wouldn't be able to pay me for my work until I turned 14.
I've also been an active member of the development community for the product that I develop with (www.dataaccess.com). I have given many speeches, even submitted source that was incorporated into the language, all while under the age of 18. Now of course I have no problems, I'm almost 21.
But I've also used this whole 'under 18 no contract' thing to my advantage. It came in handy when dealing with a warranty contract on some equipment I purchased. I shouldn't have even been able to purchase a warranty, but they let me. Later when the product broke, I took it back and they told me that the contract stated that I had to send it in for repair, not bring it in for replacement. After pointing out to him that I was under 18 and he could get in trouble for even selling me a warranty, they promptly accepted the broken product and handed me a nice new box.
So I used it for a threat. So what, all the same
In the long run, I would hope that something would come along to patch up this hole in contract law.
I think in California that maybe this has been dealt with. I was able to open a bank account and even have a VISA before I was 18 because my father signed as a proxy on the contract. (He couldn't though access the money in the account, he was not a signor on account, just a contract proxy)
OLIVER
Better VDF than VD...check it out: Data Access
You are under 18, you can
Get married - May need parental consent in some places
Be a father/mother -Greatest responsibility ever... (pay child support for 18+ years...even if you are married)
Decide to end your child/fetus' life (don't get started on the pro/anti abortion thing ok)
Wield the greatest weapon ever created (cars have killed more ppl than guns and bombs ever did)
Serve life in prison for crimes
Pay taxes
Work at a burger shop (does this mean you may get fired because they cannot enforce the confidentiality agreement that keeps thousands of minors from giving up the ingredients to "secret sauce"
List goes on.
But you can't contribute in a meaningful way to anything meaningful that has to do with lawyers.
By the way, the next shrink wrap EULA is getting opened by my 9 year old son......
Dobbie must punish hisself, Dobbie must!
These comments and opinions are mine and mine alone, although they shouldn't be.
Well I'm sure most of us feel the same way. He's got to demand that none of his code is used in the Darwin code base because according to Apple his contract was null and void to begin with. Also, I welcome his skills on the Linux / "Real" BSD (Not AppleSauce) team! It's time for him to migrate on over and develop Open Source code for Real open source platforms. His age does not matter to me,
just talent.
Well that was an angry almost sarcastic post.
You can play the rigorous legal game, which I personally think is a stupid excuse to raise the GDP without doing anything productive.
Or play the "in good faith" game that most people who want to get stuff done do.
I just hope that the world gets a justice system and drops the legal junk.
It comes down to a balance, you would be irresponsible to loan your car to a 5yr old, although it's okay to let an 18yr old drive it.
Somewhere there is a balance point, and I think in this case an intelligent capable coder is probaly responsible enough irrespective of his age.
Since Apple's looking for feedback anyway, this might be a good opportunity to do so. I'm sure there *has* to be a way they could make this work. Somehow it seems unfair to stifle this kid. I understand there are legal ramifications, but that's never stopped anyone before. Also, I like how I'm paying for a subscription to Slashdot, yet there are still banner ads at the top of the screen. Thanks, Taco.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
Since there IS small print that must be agreed to, Apple is absolutely correct and in the right to remove him. A minor cannot be legally bound to a contract. The only option in this case should be for his parents to accept responsibility - which might be best of all. The kid wont do anything to bust the fine print agreement because the heat would fall upon his PARENTS instead of him.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Well, I had always thought myself an open kind of person. I had a mac, and I used it, didn't hate it, didn't particularly love it. Sure, Mac OS X is cool, but Apple's business strategies are turning more and more into Microsoft, and are just in general annoying me. They over charge, have shitty support, and well, their board of directors needs to get a kick in the ass (one that's hard enough to kick them out of Apple)... sorry Steve. I foresee Apple losing most of their developers in the future.. leaving them left with an operating system that yes, is developed by people over 18, but has no software to run! Apple is doomed, and I predict it will be gone within 10 years (probably bought out). They have cool stuff, but seriously, who wants to pay, and who wants to put up with crap like this? I'm sticking with open hardware, and *truly* open software.
I'm 15 and have been an avid Mac evangelist since 1993...
It seems he's been going around making speeches about the great qualities of Apple products since he was 6. Heehee.
I better shut up now, since he's still a better programmer than I am...
-Russ
Me
since hes a minor... the code is technically the property of his parents. have them sue to have the code removed. it might work... you never know... ---E Pluribus Unix---
were afraid of. right? he's got the code as of yesterday. no contract with it either. he should sell his own version or whatever it is they are afraid he will do. Post it on slashdot. who knows. I mean, if he were evil. but he's not, so whatever.
Haeeors? Haieors? What?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I understand that legally this is what must be but it is also abosolutely galling and YASITWD* for Apple.
They need to make this work. And they need to reinstate his membership somehow.
(Yet Another Step In the Wrong Direction)
This
You would be very welcome to contribute to Linux (or *BSD) for that matter. Forget about Apple - they are on a road to ruin. Open software is the only way.
Here's the part you apparently grazed over:
* If the parent's [sic] ever rescind the permission to use content, it must be possible to effectively "unpublish" the content. Imagine the implications within a CVS repository of, say, having to remove the changes in version 1.5 of a file that is now at revision 1.24...?
That is exactly how it is applied to COPPA, and is spelled out in a quite straightforward manner in the original comment. COPPA sucks, but what choice does Apple have? He can't sign into agreements effectively, much less agree to the Apple Public License terms under which most of Darwin is licensed, and his parents could say "take everything he's poublished away".
Allowing contribution to continue could hurt Apple far more than simply pulling him until he reaches the age of majority.
Kids these days...
Although I believe that he still wouldn't be able to sign a leagally binding contract till he is 16. Unless a parent or guardian can sign for him.
Unfortunately, chronological age is but a poor approximation of competence. People develop their faculties at very diverse rates. I (and probably a lot of other Slashdot readers) have the classic 'nerd' problem: ahead of the curve abstract thinking skill development, behind the curve in social skills; I have met people with the reverse as well, highly developed social skills with underdeveloped abstract thinking skills. This inconsistent development rate makes it hard to keep things consistent even within the scope of a single person's development. The result is simply to handwave away the problem of personal development by setting some chronological age by which it is assumed most people will reach competence.
...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
They'll have plenty of time for that when they're in their 30s and retired. Youth is wasted on the young.
What about the GPL?
Apple has to remove the bug fix and continue to ship the PPP code that hangs the system till somebody older than 18 re-discovers the bug. It could take some time :)
Given the current state of the world Apple did the right thing from a business standpoint. From the human perspective it does seem unfair, but Finlay will eventually turn 18 and appears to have a very bright future ahead.
Did he ever say he was over 18? If Apple asked this person to disclose his age and he was dishonest, then he is getting what he deserves. Now, if they never asked him for his age, they are being absurd. There are plenty of ways they could force him and his parents to go in on an agreement that would be perfectly legally binding (in Apple's eyes at least) and so really the only justification here would be that he lied about his age, if he indeed did.
~ now you know
I have many issues with Apple, especially now that Jobs is back at the helm, but I don't fault them on this one.
Maybe they could have found a more diplomatic way to handle this, but they didn't. This guy can't be held to the terms of the contract because he's a minor. Why do you think that so many businesses won't hire minors? Becuse they can't be held to any contracts.
"By signing this agreement, you are agree not to divulge any of the personal information of our clients/customers including, but not limited to Names, Addresses, Social Security numbers, Credit Card numbers, or the nature of the service that we provide them."
There is a flipside to every law, or principle of law, that provides protection for someone. For example, in Ohio utility companies can't require your social security number, so many businesses have simply chosen not to do business in Ohio.
You don't have to let the police into your house without a search warrant, but when they have a search warrant they might even be able to subject you to a strip search.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
And I have to lie to do much of anything online.
Within the OS community, I'm completely open with my age. Nobody cares about age--just skills. It's absolutely wonderful. The only other place I get that is in college classes.
But on the rest of the Internet I have to lie. I have to lie to get an instant messaging account, a webmail address, access to a news site, some web space, or a chat room. I have to lie to get API data from Palm, Microsoft and many other companies. Some of these places make it exceedingly easy to lie--for example, one videochat site just has you hit the submit button again, implicitly promising that a parent is submitting th eform this time. In others, you have to jump through hoops to do it. But in most cases it's pretty easy to lie.
It gets on my conscience, though. Every time I lie I feel like a cheat. Every time I pretend I didn't see the "by clicking this button, you agree that you are over eighteen" line, I feel like a bad person. But I do it anyway, because I can't do what I want and need to do otherwise.
I understand that this is necessary because of contract law. However, I think that points to a deficiency in contract law, not in kids.
I haven't thought very long on this issue, but at least one solution comes to mind. It follows the model of child labor laws. Before fifteen (which, incidentally, I think is older than is really necessary) you simply can't work. Between fifteen and eighteen you can work, but with restrictions on what you can do and how long you can do it for. At eighteen, you're free to sell your labor in any way you please.
Perhaps similar provisions should be written into contract law. For example, between age X and eighteen, you can enter contracts unless they obligate you to pay money or do work.
In any case, I believe that the current system is Evil and Wrong. We should fix it instead fo forcing kids to be liars.
Hey, you try to find an open nick these days!
I've gotten too phat for my crib, personally.
Gotta go crib a new crib.
Get me some cribbage, if you will.
Prickles 7.0
> But do these young geeks ever go out and get a life, girls, beer, etc?
Can you say OFFTOPIC?
I don't have an apple dev connection account, but I just signed up for an iTools account with a new iMac. it asked me if I was 18 or older.
Could it be that this kid was asked, and said yes?
Seems there isn't much that can be done, other than he will have to provide code to someone older to perhaps submit for him until he becomes legal age.
"small-print"? excuse me? Isn't that an ancient technique of DECEIVING someone? Why cant they just print everything readable. Shouldnt hiding or INTENTIONALLY trying to hide somethings in a contract by techniques like that be illegal? DECEPTION?
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Unfortunate. I can see Apple's point. In the USA, you generally can not enter into contracts unless you are at least 18 years old. Now, I don't see why they can't get a parent or guardian to sign.
Will was the founder of the School of Creative Spelling. He spelled his name six different ways. (do your own google search)
Of course, maybe he spelled it so many different ways because it really was Roger Bacon doing the writing and he just didn't remember how he speeled it the last time....
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
Eugenia--
Have you ever taken a step back and looked at your life? Taken a calming deep breath, cleared your head, and assessed the situation? Looked around at what you have made for yourself, what you've done and how it's affected you? If you had, it wouldn't be hard to see that things aren't as rosy as most people would be comfortable with; furthermore, it seems as if you're not comfortable with you or your situation either. It's no large feat to realize that things in your life are falling apart, and have been for quite a while. In fact, you don't really seem to have a life now and all that you own or have is going to go away eventually because it's not yours. Yes, Eugenia, here's the simple, terrible truth: your life is in shambles and it's only getting worse.
Let's take a look at the swill and depravity that you live in.
Your Slashdot journal entry from Saturday, March 02, 2002 encapsulates your attitude toward hygiene (or lack thereof) in one sordid little pill:
there is only ONE thing I can't stand: The upstairs people. They do things with the water at 6:30 in the morning, every morningEugenia, this is known as bathing. The concept may be foreign to your rancid Greek arse but it's a fact of life to millions of Americans everyday. Oops! I forgot you're not an American citizen. Well, we'll touch on that later...
Here are a few quotes out of your Slashdot journal, taken from Sunday, March 03 through Thursday, March 14, 2002 that do well to exemplify your lack of will-power and discipline.
Today, I started a "real" diet. And yes, this time, the diet IS HERE TO STAY [...] my diet goes well [...] Diet goes ok, I suppose. I mean, I feel that I do a more balanced diet now, as opposing of losing weight right here, right now. I hope it continues well [...] I feel a bit weak, but it is not too bad [...] Argh, I got a terrible headache now [...] I am roasting some pork and oven potatoes
Within just a short eleven-day period we see a rapid downward spiral into fleshly indulgence and lack of self-control, hastened by physical sickness and ailments resulting from simply eating properly. Your body has attuned itself so finely to your horrid eating habits that it actually grows ill over these eleven days to the point that finally, in desperation over a migraine, you cook up a grease-laden meal to satiate your thirst for all things fat.
Have you no self control? Look at yourself! You have a gut that just won't go away-- you look like an ugly, stinky, fat little troll even on your wedding day for Christ's sake! Have you no pride or respect for yourself? Not even just enough to make you stave off those pork and potatoes? Gluttony will destroy your life, Eugenia. It's already destroyed your body.
Eugenia, it's clear to me (and everyone else) that you're mentally unbalanced and delusional. Please, seek help immediately. You are in dire need of counseling and/or therapy for a myriad of issues, among which are hygeine, self-discipline, and proper English grammar. We're behind you all the way, Eugenia, you can do it.
If she had sex before, you could say she was experienced enough to know what was coming.
Look at Red Hat. They're a company. They have shareholders. Yet they manage to take in contributions from anyone.
The problem is Apple wants its cake and to eat it too. It wants to free a part of the operating system, yet remain a proprietary product. It wants to be more open with the community, yet retain Non-disclosure agreements.
Lets face it folks. Apple is a proprietary company--more proprietary than even Microsoft in my estimation. I don't know what prompted them to free Darwin (even with all them requirements upon it). Apple doesn't *think* that way. They think "this is mine, NDA, trade secret". Even the article said that Apple still hasn't grasped the principles of free software.
And don't tell me what is not possible. I don't know law and I don't think you do either. But with enough lawyers I think anything is possible.
And I think Apple has enough lawyers. Perhaps then they can be busy doing something else other than going after Aqua cloners on free systems.
imagine what happens to Darwin if the young man's code "poisons the well" so to speak because of a tainted license?
Being a minor means he can't give anything away either, the IP would still belong to Apple.
Otherwise, all I would need to do in order to get the copyright to the entire Star War series would be to get a minor to hand me those DVDs.
It amazes me that this community always bitches about companies for almost any decision they make. Never are they able to look from another point of view and see why a decision was reached and if it was valid or not.
The GNU license suffers the same age of accountability limitation. So, MS could use 18 year olds to circumvent the GPL and there'd be nothing a court could do, since the age of accountability (contract-wise) is 18 in the US.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
COPPA is the act that says you can't ask for personal information from a child under 13. Code is not personal information. Now again, please answer my question about what COPPA has to do with this?
Apple has always required you be "of age" to be part of ADC or the seed programs. And they are exactly right; if a minor violates the agreements it is impossible to prosecute them. The easy way out is for the defendant's lawyer to say "they are too young to understand the terms of the agreement." One could argue by LYING on the form, it illustrates the character and/or maturity of the individual purgering themselves.
Death to smoochie.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
Now that he's seen and accessed the stuff, the Cat is out of the Bag, and he's not responsible for anything he does with his knowledge, data, documentation, software, etc.
Maybe Apple should sign up Mr Developer Sr. just in case.
Apple cannot legally use this code! His contract was invalid because he was under 18. Therefore they are obligated to employ someone to clean out all the code he submitted. And they also cannot look at it...because it is technically not licensed to them. If they do, he could theoretically sue...
Hey, if you're under 18, you can share that copy of quake with all your friends, but cannot license software under the GPL. (If what apple says is true). Sickening...
I've just turned 17, and I've been working full-time in the IT industry since I was 15. I started as a programmer for a major New Zealand ISP, and moved up to network administrator within 10 months, and I'm now a software engineer for a New Zealand startup company.
I, personally, haven't had _too_ much of a problem with my age, although there have been some minor issues.
This is New Zealand, and finding people with my skillset and experience is a non-trivial event.
I am extremely saddened that Apple have chosen to discard someone who would probably have been one of their best resources. What I'm also worried about however, is whether or not other companies will follow suit. (Including the one I work for, funnily enough.)
All it takes is one large multi-national to start a trend, and then all people in our age-group will have an even harder time of getting a job in our chosen field.
I think Apple need to go back, and rethink their actions.
He would be protected and allowed to have access to his code. Apple doesn't have to give his stuff back or anything.
And yet, people can write for free software projects. Why? Because they're volunteers. I don't think the same restrictions on child labor apply to those under 18, though at least in my state (Missouri) you must be 14 or older to do volunteer work.
The GPL is not a contract. If you break the GPL, you break copyright law, and not even minors are allowed to do that.
I don't know if anyone else has posted about it and I won't go on at length here, but thanks to the COPPA laws passed about two years ago (IIRC) Apple -- or anyone online -- can get into serious legal trouble for soliciting any kind of information or doing any kind of exchange with minors. Mock Apple all you want, but save the real derision for our lawmakers who, in their infinite zeal to protect us all from ourselves and to be a surrogate parent to all those kids out there on the net, are to blame.
You know-it-alls in the open source comminity can mock Apple's decision all you want, but I have a feeling you'll be singing a different tune when some parent decides to sue your ass off for eliciting information from their kid over the net through a web site. Thanks to our stupid lawmakers, it's not legal. Keep that in mind.
--Rick
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
I encountered this as well when working on Final Doom, a community doom add-on purchased and distributed by id Software. I was a leading contributor to the project, but was 15 at the time of the sale.
The solution was for my parents to sign the agreement with me as well. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know why this was acceptable to id, but perhaps something like this would work for Apple as well, in this case?
Now that I've heard about this, they just lost themselves another possible developer. (I'm still in high school.) Sorry, Apple: if you're going to be this pigheaded about it, you'll have to find programmers elsewhere.
TANSTAAFI: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free iPod.
Wasn't Randy Wiggington (who did some of the
"hard" coding in Applesoft BASIC and Apple DOS)
under 18 when he was helping Woz out with Apple
II software?
This isn't apple's fault. It's partially the kids fault, partially the government's fault and mostly everyone else's fault.
He wouldn't beable to work for apple either because he wouldn't be bound to an NDA either, but nobody is screaming about age discrimination because he can't get a real programming job at a real company.
As ussual the scumbag lawyers screw things up with a benifit to no one. I'm 37 and have been an engineer for 16 years and I don't understand those "small print" licenses so I can't be expected to "follow the rules" either. Isn't an open source license just that I promise to share and give up personal right to submitted code ( and I have not stolen said code). They should give him his access back, if it makes the sharks (um, I mean laywers) happy, can't a parent or gaurdian accept the agreement for him??? If he's been valuable or even if he hasn't they should have found a work arround the open source movement is purely based on good will, and they ain't showing much. This is a pretty big suprise to me as I saw Apple as the good guys who did things right, in HW, SW and general practices, but this suggests otherwise.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
Wow - this reminded me of my underage contract story. You all have one right?
When I was 13 years old I had a paper route. And let me tell you, $25 a week was "pimp city" for a 13 year old back then. Anyway, I signed up with BMG under my own name and everything. You know the routine: 8 CDs for the price of 1 gets you in, and then each month unless you explicitly tell them not to, they send you a CD.
I was doing pretty good for the first couple months. But alas, ADD (self-diagnosed) got the better of me and soon I was forgetting to send in the "no CD this month" responses. I ended up with a $400 bill and about 25 shit CDs that I wouldn't give to my worst enemy.
I blew them off until I started getting nasty letters from a collection agency (I'm surprised I never woke up with a horse's head in my bed). At this point I panicked and confessed to my mom. She promptly wrote a letter to the collection agency explaining that I was 13 years old and therefore couldn't be constrained by the contract. Sure enough, they completely dropped it.
Interestingly (depending on how bored you are), the minute I turned 18 I started receiving a shitload of solicitations from BMG. It was like the 8th year after filing bankruptcy.
What's up with these moderators?
Love teenagers, go to jail. That's the law, unfortunately.
According to Apple's letter, it sounds like they're claiming Finlay isn't bound by the NDA. So does it mean Finlay can release everything confidential he knows about Darwin without legal consequences? If Finlay were ever sued for disclosing Darwin's secrets, he can show the court the letter and claim it was Apple that told him he's not bound by the NDA.
Though I bet if he were to turn his talents to malicious hacking and if he were caught, he would be tried as an adult. Ain't this country great?
I thought that Darwin was Open Source, or at least some people said so. Now I'm kinda confused.
I remember when I was starting the company I am in now, I was 17. When we first started it up, dealing with all of the Intellectual Property etc, we had to jump through a few loops to get investors. The reason was that since I was the premiere technology director, and the only person who could manage the technical aspects of the company.
So what it comes down to, is what happens when you cant transfer ownership to the company because you cant be legally bound to anything you sign, let alone employment contracts to make sure you dont run off to M$ when they offer you a $1M bonus, and leave the company and all of the investors high and dry.
This is a big problem IMO. The current US laws for this type of stuff, mainly IP and ownership, arent meant to handle a minor being a major contributor a corporation.
IANAL, but from my experience, its a tough battle. The way we eventually got around it was to keep my stock in the company until I turned 18, at which time a IP-for-Stock contract kicked in.
Much different than the situation here with Apple, but nonetheless its on the same grounds.
Am I the only one that thinks that he's just pissed off because he's not seen as 'Big Man on Campus' by Apple's red tape?
If he had persued the legal route, which is having his parents sign the contract then would there be anything to barf about? Legally he can't GPL can he? Is he going to write an article about that as well?
I think now all the Linux carnivores have something to say Apple is like M$ (let's eat!) but considering what they've done so far, (and excusing they are a big company that sometimes look at the bottom line). I think this open source business is a bit more than hype.
does anyone else see the new slashdot banner graphic at the top of this page? It looks OSX-esque. I like.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Unless you stole it along with Windows.
Why would a guy stealing windows? Maybe a die-hard cleptomaniac.
While an ELUA is not required to stop you from COPYING software, if I've PAID for the software then I have obtained it legally and can legally use it... as long as I abide by the EULA... but if I'm a minior and I can voice the EULA... I still own the software... If the EULA is not in effect, then it cannot void my right to use the software.
Now I still can't copy the software... but if I paid $600 for photoshop and the EULA is void I don't see how that means you can't use it anymore.
In fact I've heard a lot of stuff about all thsoe clauses in the EULA not being legal cause you can't read the contract before you agree to it... that also seems to indicate that if you pay for the software you can use it legally for legal purpouses.
Shake-speare (very common)
Shakespear
Shakspeer
Shaksperr
and
Sheakspear
Insight, intelligence, and a sober viewpoint. Aside from the "know it alls" line, a well reasoned point. Mod this parent up!
...you file independently. Tell mom & dad that if they want to keep that juicy deduction, their asses had better cough up some cash to the cause of getting you educated. If they're not supporting you and you're filing returns of your own, they shouldn't be claiming you. I'm sure you love mom & dad, but point out to them that they are screwing you over by:
1) Claiming you.
2) Not giving you shit.
3) Messing with your FAFSA (and thereby awards & grants) due to #1.
And that if they don't fix the situation, you call the IRS. Christmas may be awkward for a few years, but remember that they're screwing you.
Nor is he allowed to drink alcohol, nor is he allowed to vote, etc. etc.
this may suck but as far as I can remeber, the rules are the same for everybody.
there's no place like ~
The name slips my mind. Does anyone remember? This kid just hung around Cupertino in the late 1970s and worked up to a pretty high position in Apple. I believe he was on the Mac development team.
God knows I've signed NDAs with Matrix, 3dfx, ATI, etc with my work in open-source 3d gaming.
And as a note, at least one of those companies had to know I was 15 at the time. But I recieved driver source, API information and hardware samples. Of course, I still had to wait til I turned 18 to get the job I wanted, but that was for 'customer security'.
Thankfully in Australia things are a lot easier in regards to people catcalling 'Child Labor!' all the time, although I was dealing with international companies. The biggest problem I've ever had due to my age is getting into conferences. Apart from SAGE/AUUG where my uncle pulled some strings and everyone was very friendly.
It's quite a pity... that the problem is law doesn't take into consideration that (expecially in the IT industry,) most people make their mark when they are young. Hence why my username is always Ender, in sympathy for all those who have to deal with adults who can't deal with the fact a 13yo is more intelligent than they are!
When I was 15, I was flying though my history classes and going to battlefields and other historical places...
Support the Chagossians
The last thing we need is to bring up yet another generation on the idea that they can weasel out of any obligation they find inconvinient. Many of the problems society has today stem from peoples' basic unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions.
We did external research for Apple, and we had a dozen or so elementary students testing pre-release hardware and software for Apple ATG... they realized the kids couldn't sign a meaningful, binding contract,so we sorta shrugged over it, I read the kids the riot act, made them stand on one leg, raise their right hands, etc... and we all made it through - the lead time to rollout was only about a quarter, so it went OK - but we all held our breath for 90 days. One of the Apple employees on a site visit mentioned that on the flight out, he was seated next to a woman who found out he worked for Apple and was supremely interested in what he did, questioning him incessantly for most of the trip. When they landed, she handed him her business card - an intellectual property lawyer who had recently worked for Apple and decided to see how much of a secret he could keep. She congratulated him on passing with flying colors.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
goodbye future Apple developer... I'm sure Apple could have come up with something better then this, which is legal and stuff. Now they're just loosing future developers because of this incident.
Not really smart thinking, Mr. Apple!
Sweet, I was getting bored of Dmitry, now we can save Finlay Dobbie...he has a much cooler name anyways. Good timing too, protesting is a good chance to go outside and catch some rays!
This is yet another example of a lawyer having his head firmly wedged up his ass and being surprised that maybe not everything is brown and smells like shit.
Jobs should fire the fucking lawyer, who does nothing but cost him money and piss off his customers.
In fact, I'm going to write to him right now and suggest exactly that. Bye.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
What about fee tail estates or the rule against perpetuities? You said I should ask!
Amazing magic tricks
give him a honorary recognition award....
why not?
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
The joke is in the moderation.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
about the stupidity to work for free for greedy companies.
Please, please quit rationalizing Apple's moves when we know they have acted impishly and impulsively in the past (i.e. Newton, killing Yellow Box, failing to port to PC in the 80s, etc., etc.) . We all know there is a way they could work with this guy, and if they liked him and thought he was important enough they would do it. This is all probably about some immature rivalry, where the kid wrote some code that one-upped one of their senior OS developers or pissed off someone else. So they decided to stab him in the back. Hey, let's get real, there are rivalries in the OSS movement just like anything else. Now mix it up with a big corporation and you'll see those rivalries amplified. There is an old saying, IF YOU LAY WITH DOGS YOU WILL GET FLEAS.
Which would be ok, asuming it's an evil baby.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
When you're accused of pedophilia by Scientologists, be sure that your comment about loving teenagers, will not be forgotten.
I was around when Apple was two guys in a garage with a silly looking prototype in a wooden box. In those days a lot of the best hackers were either very young (one outfit was run by a 13 yr old out of his bedroom), on SSI, on drugs or some combination of the above. Apple used to have hippies in vans camped in their parking lot for weeks in hopes of getting an interview. For them to act like a bunch of stiff suits now and particularly on such stupid legalistic grounds is utterly disgusting.
What the hell is Open Source about their process?
Now they're taking candy from kids. This is great for marketing, im sure.
This may make it more complex, and maybe it has been said already. He's from Europe, too. I'm only 17, but a fairly good online buddy with him, and I don't really know the laws and how the laws actually hold up outside the US. This could actually be a very interesting job for some lawyer to review :P
- Jon
Nope.
The GPL cannot and does not take legal precedence over copyright law itself. The definition of derived work, and the definition of who owns a work, is the same, regardless of whether the GPL or the BSD licence is used.
If I write a patch to the Linux kernel, then I own the copyright to that patch, unless I explicitly relinquish the copyright. By default, nobody can do anything with my patch without my permission (subject to "fair use" exemptions). Linus cannot put my patch into the Linux kernel unless I give permission. One way for me to do this is to release the patch under the GPL.
The GPL cannot take away my ownership rights to my patch. What the GPL does is to prohibit me from distributing a copy of the Linux kernel with my modifications, unless I release those modifications under a licence compatible with the GPL, or place them in the public domain, or sign over the copyright to my patch to Linus.
Doug Moen
I have written a truly remarkable program which this sig is too small to contain.
Maybe Apple had legal grounds for what they did, maybe not. I really could give a shit. The fact is, their actions are the height of rudeness and corporate arrogance. At the very least, they should have notified Dobbie that they were cutting off his ADC account. Does that sound like beatnik idealism? Not really; if you treat people with respect, those people will be more likely to help you out in the future. If you treat people like shit, they'll wait for the next opportunity to stab you in the back. It's just common sense, but not if you're a lawyer.
And why the hell do they need an NDA in the first place? For proprietary code, I could understand it, but I thought Darwin was supposed to be open-source.
So, 3 hours after you posted the story, after ~600 /.-ers have sounded off against Apple, after a few other stories to grab attention have piled up, and at the end of the business day you finally realize that maybe you should occasionally do some research.
The reason? It turns out this kid's rant against Apple was missing one important detail... The one where we learn he was being provided developer access by someone who was violating a legally binding agreement. Maybe that's why Apple went all heavy-handed and cut off this developer's account? Oops.
I feel sorry for the kid if he wants to hack Darwin and Apple won't let him contribute his code back. I don't feel sorry for the kid (or his co-conspirators) for doing an end-run around Apple's contracts and getting burned. Welcome to the real world - you better get used to it.
You may rest assured that computer geeks use their grasp of arcana to fleece people all the time. I see it all the time, from BOFH-types I'd encounter on the job to Bill Gates.
Yep. Unfortunately, this does happen, though wealthy clients who want to harrass enemies, real or imagined, will do so regardless of whether they hire a lawyer or a layperson to prepare the paperwork.
A lawyer who takes his deep-pocketed clients' money without winning cases will very soon have no deep-pocketed clients to fleece. Again, this behaviour (not to excuse it) is hardly unique to lawyers; as a contract UNIX admin, I'd spend 4 gigs out of 5 cleaning up after some previous geek who had fleeced my client in the past and stuck them with broken or unmanageable systems and networks.
Like what? Wherever you see "nitpicking" in an agreement, you should know that means every one of the nits being picked has, at some point in the past, hatched and bitten someone in the ass who didn't expect it.
Well, I don't think life would be any less complex or adversarial without lawyers, but I realize this is a point on which reasonable people can differ. I agree with you on "more legalistic" but that the existence of lawyers makes life "more legalistic" isn't a stretch, it's tautology. Computer geeks make life more complex and "more technologistic," but I don't count this against them.
I'd love to see a reputable source for this. It sounds pretty difficult to quantify, given that money that goes to lawyers doesn't vanish out of the economy. I won't argue that there aren't overpaid lawyers (or overpaid computer geeks), but that money doesn't just disappear.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
We're going to get copyright law changed.
Ask any of the anti-IP people about the issue.
Once copyright is something that expires after seven years or so, *whoosh* all that GPL'd code... mmmmm, tasty......
Insight, intelligence, and a sober viewpoint. Aside from the "know it alls" line, a well reasoned point. Mod this parent up!
:^)
Well, thank you. And, btw, the "know it alls" line wasn't meant to apply to all in the open source community... just the know it alls therein. No offense intended.
--Rick
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
If you read Finlays missive carefully, he raises the question as to whether Darwin is really OPEN source and whether it will succeed the way Linux and BSD have by attracting outside developers to contribute. His main arguments are that the bug tracking system "Radar" is not open and that they make it too legally difficult for anyone (even older than 18) to become a Darwin committer. These are very valid concerns and much more important than whether 15 year olds can sign an NDA....If Darwin is truly open source, no NDA should be required!
So, what do you think? Will Darwin be successful as an open source project or is it a closed source project masquerading as an open source project?
Y
no sig.
Simply put, As a Mac "zealot" in quotes cause i love NT adv Srv And mandrake just as much, this is just sad. I understand this is probably just a strict legal situation, child labor and such, apple "technicaly" is using underage workers for less than minimum wage. Om the books thats pretty bad, but in real life its ridiculous. sense the "ope source community" isnt a organazation or any true buisness in a real-world sense it can be thought of as a free labor pool. who gives a damn, i picked my quadra 605 apart at 11, wrote modem scripts and such, hacked BBS's (lol, remember those?) and by 17 was writing C++ apps and websites, etc... Laws need to change to reflect "hobbies" (lol) and real work (digging ditchs, selling hamburgers etc....) idiots... alll of them
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
I'm not sure why his being under 18 is such a big deal. It is not uncommon for companies to have interns which are under 18. Having done internships myself, I've contributed code to projects (commercial and otherwise) prior to turning 18.
Darin Adler was 23 or 24 years old when he was technical lead for Apple's System 7. Take a look at his "20 Years of Computer Software" page for details, during the 1987-1991 period. (From the info on his page, he turned 13 in '78; that makes him 23 years old in '88...)
Looks like a young gun was good enough to lead an entire operating system project for Apple back in the day, but not good enough now to be a contributor to part of part of an OS now.
ppp bug? Who cares about that?!
Could someone please track down the Infamous "aqua won't run on x86" bug.
thanks.
In the USA you can get sentenced to death even though you're a minor yet you can't code for an operating system.
Anyone remember the film "Logan's run"?
If the wider populace starts seeing that the local concepts of saving and wasting money simply do not apply at a global scale they will no longer be motivated to do such things.
This is a secret that is so secret that the keepers of secrets are not entrusted with it, and here you are letting it out of the bag deep in the obsucrity of
-- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
This just goes to show that Apple does not want to be free. The only future "rights" that can be protected this way, is for Apple to keep you from:
Using your software as you see fit.
Changing your software to suit your needs.
Sharing your improvements with your friends.
Allowing your friends all the above rights.
Don't tell me that this was not HIS software, but was Apple's. He was writing it, it was his as well as others. As with most non-free software interests, Apple locked our friend out of his work.
Why do people appologize and defend such obviously ugly behavior? Once again, the downsides of non-free development are made manifest. What were the benifits? That more people would use your code thanks to Apple's marketing department? That Apple would better control quality? That Apple's co-operation with other non-free software and hardware vendors would make sure that users of your code could use hardware not available to others? That you would have to give Apple money to have your software back? As you help Apple to deny other's rights you make them stronger and more able to do things like this to you. If you consider such impositions "protecting future rights", you are really warped.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
COPPA only applies to children under the age of 13. That's why sites that collect personal information all say something to the effect of "no one under 13 may use this site".
If you're going to start quoting law, at least be familiar with it.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
N.L.
Looking for a great online backup: Green Backup
Here it comes. Chants of "Apple had to do this to protect themselves!" from unwavering Apple fans.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
I think that the eligibility of his code should be based on his coding skills as opposed to his age. If someone makes a considerable contribution then they should not be held back because of their age. Many young people are great programmers.
Another thing to point out is that Google is currently running a programming contest, but the authors of the code must be 18 or older to enter. If something is good why should it matter where it's from?
Nice to see how the other open-source developers in the community stood behind him.
Or is the 'community' a myth.
They should have all said "You lock him out, we all quit"
The movie business already had to contend with this. There are child actors all the time, creating content (performances), who are working and legally contributing. There are different rules for child actors than regular actors though, including shorter maximum shooting days, trust fund witholding (so that parents can't take the money from the kid before their old enough to use it), and other rules specific to minors. Sometimes studios decide they don't want to go to all that trouble for a role (why do you think everyone on Dawsons Creek or Beverly Hills 90210 was not *actually* in high school?) and hire younger adults anyway. But many times they hire minors, and because they law is figured out already, they do what they need to. Child actors can do what they love, and the government can still keep children from being exploited (as much as they can anyone).
Perhaps this is a good model for software development as well? (As are other corellations between making movies and making software.)
-Trout
Boo hoo hoo
He's going to take his toys and go home, and cry to the zealots on Slashdot.
Why is this news?
So, I might buy an imac anyway. When, oh when, will the Apple folks trust their superior hardware design's ability to sell? This whole propriatory software swindle does more to hurt them than it does to help. Imagine a Mac Debian distro as one of the simplified install optptions or simply preloaded. Kinda like, "here you go, have a movie editor, CD burner, and software to make all these cool gadgets work. You can install more if you like, after all it's your computer." Yes, I really would buy one, and so would everyone else.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I thought Darwin was open source. They're concerned
that a minor doesn't have to honour a non-disclosure
agreement, but isn't open source... open source? Or
is Darwin not open source? And if that's the case,
why would anyone want to use it, when you can get
a real *BSD that is open source? This is a little
confusing.
In any event, from a PR perspective it isn't good for
Apple. It gives the impression that if you strip
off their friendly drag, underneath you find a little
Microsoft wannabe.
consider it a learning experience and come on
over to Linux.
Apple is yesterday's rebels.
Help fight the Beast with Tux.
> In other words, once again the U.S. legal system is making life
> difficult for its citizens.
Why do you think that he is a US citizen? In fact, he seems to be British:
http://www.btinternet.com/~finlay.dobbie/ : (=British Telecom)
"It took three transatlantic phone calls..."
I did NDAs and stuff for Sierra when I was 15-17. Never an issue with them.
:p
Granted I was not working code and wasn't contributing (only testing), but breaking an NDA is still a bad thing(TM).
I never even had to 'sign' the NDAs, it was a 'Click here to accept this NDA agreement' on an online form. I think they did have a clause saying that if you are a minor, your parents must consent on your behalf.
My mom thought it was BS stuff until I started getting FedEx deliveries every week.
- Nothing is true, everything is permitted
Free software that runs on their hardware is a blessing to their business.
/. people are just so knee-jerk, it kills me ...
So they do everything they can to help out, within the realms of their existing business model... until *someone* works out an economics model that functions under OSS ideologies capable of supporting an organization as *Big* as Apple, its staff, and shareholders.
But really, quit bitching about it. Apple make great hardware - and are *STILL* doing great things for computing for the masses, even to this day.
Not that there aren't other options, but while you've still got options, quit complaining about one of them!
This under-18 issue is really not worth the hooplah - its technologically tabloid. As others have stated, big deal - he'll still write OSS, he'll probably still love computing, and maybe he'll still end up contributing anyway.
And there's always emancipation!
Really, sometimes you
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Some one should take a copy of this and Nail it to Steve Job's front Door. Apple had how many under 18 employes when it was founded? All they have to do is get this kids parents to sign for him. Pure, pure, pure stupidity.
It was really low that they didn't refund his ADC account.
They don't have any choice about accepting code, because effectively, he can't assign copyrights for his changes. Even if his parents sign for it, he could void the assignment after he turned 18 -- or at least would have a good shot at it, given that he wasn't paid for his work...
But, they should have been a lot nicer about it and at least had the lawyers explain what the problem was and maybe shipped him a free computer or something...
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
I think there were issues there with them writing games when they were underage, and some software companies got stung.
He wrote BASIC with Paul Allen, but MS-DOS was bought in, like many of Microsoft's products (IE, Flight Simulator, SourceSafe to name but three).
can drive a F1 racing car on the track, but can't hire a rental car outside ;-)
I first saw this story on MacNN and thought that this was a new concern but it is not. After getting notice from Apple that my application for free student entry to WWDC 2002 was accepted I went to Apple's developer website to get my e-ticket. Along with the obvious restriction that I must show that I am a student to get the student ticket there was also a restrictiont that I be 18 or older. Neither is a concern for this 28 year old student working on his second BS, but it reminded me of a conversation I had at WWDC 2000.
While at the student welcoming some friends that came with me and myself ran into a couple high school students. They must have been seniors (I don't recall if they stated that or I assumed it) and must have been at least 18 or they wouldn't be there. They mentioned that people wanted to get Apple to support a high school developer program much like they have for colleges. Their arguments for high school programs sounded valid at the time and we agreed with them. After hearing about this 15 year old developers troubles and the discussion that resulted I now see why Apple does not have such a program.
The short of it is that Apple has dealt with this many times before. To me it seems that Apple does not want to hassle with under 18 developers. It would make sense to me that Apple doesn't want to go through the hassle, as each under 18 applicant would have to be handled on a case by case basis and any legal dispute that arises would be more trouble than its worth. Apple knows and every one reading this forum should realise that being a minor is a temporary state. So to all those whining, bitching and moaning minors that want to be full-fledged Apple Developers just be quite and grow up.
Finlay needs to get Finlaid.
relax kid. Throwing a tantrum and resigning shows immaturity.
If you do things the right way, folks at Apple will be kissing your ass in 3 years and begging you to work for them. Just do what you've been doing the past few years. I'm sure there are companies out there willing to pay a minor to do coding (especially with your background) as long as you have a work permit.
Another option is to get a life and step away from the computer for a couple years. There will be plenty of opportunities to get back into the groove. At 15 you should be partying your ass off and trying to get some.
Welcome to the real world - you better get used to it
</quote>
Or, instead of being both lazy and cowardly, we could try and change it.
Perhaps you are anti revolution? All revolutions, even minor ones? Including the american revolution?
<irony>Best not to change anything, including da we we treat dem niggas, caus that's just the real world and the'd better get used it. </irony>
Florida's "curfew" laws exist for the same reason "loitering" and "vagrancy" laws exist... to harass minorities and the underclass.
Sound far-fetched? Notice the poster said "the police used the curfew law against my brother, and he's an American citizen". Oh, OK that's different!
So what do immigrants (which we are all sons of..) live under? Martial law?
I get a kick out of Florida. I went to Daytona beach once, and I never saw so many Confederate battle flags (Florida was part of SPAIN during the US Civil War you dopes!).
In Florida it's illegal to hang "Whites only" signs, so instead they hang signs "American Owned". What that sign means is, if you are not white you will not get served, and here's your fair notice.
Ah. End of Rant.
The GPL is not a contract.
Actually the GPL is a contract, which allows you to do things with a copyright work you would not otherwise be allowed to do. In exactly the same way that a publishing contract can allow a publisher who is not the copyright holder to publish a copyright work.
Once copyright is something that expires after seven years or so, *whoosh* all that GPL'd code... mmmmm, tasty......
Not all GPL code, simply that which hasn't been altered for 7 years. Any active project would still have the current release fully protected by copyright. Microsoft would probably be very worried about new versions of Windows 95 which run well on all the latest hardware though...
I can tell you're not a history major. Florida was given to the US by Spain in 1821 -- 40 years before the start of the Civil War.
It became a state in 1845, and seceeded in 1861 -- the third state to leave the Union.
You might want to learn some history before you start shooting off your mouth
Finlay wanted "commiter" priviledges.
Besides helping track down the PPP-hang.
He has not been working on Darwin itself. He has been working on third party things like Fink.
There is no Darwin code for Apple to use or not use as a result of his minority.
In order to circumvent the NDA issue Apple went far out of its way to grant him the priviledge he
wanted.They offered a single point of contact: an Apple engineer to peer with in order to get "commiter" access. Hey, I'm over 18 working on a project that Apple is very keen to see on OSX and I don't get that kind of priviledge !
This is just (a smart) 15 year old kid having a public tantrum. Apple has done nothing that stops him from doing what he has been doing up to now.
-S
There's a reason I ask: Individual Education Plans.
These IEPs are wonderful little inventions that many states have written into their education laws; basically, what they are is a way out for you and your school when/if you want to do something other than sit with a babysitter who happens to have teaching credentials.
It may be difficult to write an IEP until you get into high school, but you can begin researching some of the possibilities now. I remember finding The Gifted Kids' Survival Guide most helpful when I was about your age, though I didn't get off my ass and seriously pursue IEP stuff until 11th grade.
If you live in a state with sensible gifted education laws and in a school district which respects those laws (or have an intimidating attorney ready to go to bat for you), then it is possible to essentially write your own education plan. You may at most be able to get a few periods a week - there are still some courses you'll have to take, and doing poorly in them could scuttle everything else, so you'll just have to suffer through history of Western Civ. However, in the "spare" time you'll be able pursue anything you want; my personal suggestion would be to contact professors at some local college or university (there are probably some community college professors who would love to see anything approaching a talented and motivated student) and get them to sponsor some computing projects. This adds an air of academic legitimacy which your public school is going to need to feel good about letting you do something school administrators can't understand.
My IEP senior year specified AP Physics, since the offered physics course was a complete and total joke. I was lucky, and got five periods a week and an expanded book closet with desk. Occasionally they'd throw some old hardware at me, and halfway through the year the teacher who was nominally supervising me got promoted to an administrative position and I was left completely alone. It was a good year.
Apple could do otherwise, they're just a mean company in general. The shareholders don't need to know about a expert programmer who is a minor, and neither does the board.
Show him some appreciation? I hope they do, but they won't.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Personally, I see this as the fault of the kid. Had he just approached them and said "look, I'm under the age of 18, what can we do" I suspect the folks at Apple would have worked things out with him.
As it was, he signed a contract. He falsely identified himself as someone who could LEGALLY sign a contract. This is no different than using a bogus drivers license to get beer.
It does NOT mean that he can not submit code - it merely means that the process at the moment does not include a method. But these things can be worked out. Instead, people want to just light up the ol' flamethrower and start toasting without regards to facts (and the fact is, ANY contract can be modified, altered, or updated as long as BOTH parties agree).
But it is just a helluva' lot easier to flame 'em, right?
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
This can't be right - if Apple were found liable to pay damages relating to code contributed by an individual, it is highly unlikely that they could reclaim significant compensation from any coder; a minor is not much different in this case from a 19 year old college student.
What next - proof of $500,000 in liquid assets before you can contribute code?
is this even an issue of him committing to the repositories?
from reading that article i get the idea that nothing has changed on that, and his work as a darwin developer/committer can continue.
his issue was solely with the adc program, and the fact that apple requires even online members to agree to an nda; and the fact that you need to be an adc member to download the dev tools. this is where the age issue applies, this has nothing to do with darwin.
reading the article, he decided to give up on the darwin project because of his issues with adc.
that's what his article says.
what it doesn't say is who exactly made the decision to follow-through with the decision to revoke his adc privileges.
he mentions darwin a whole lot, but this is apparently an adc issue and not a darwin issue. for all we know the "darwin people" at ï£ might have gone to bat for him [and struck out] or simply not known, or had no say in the matter.
we don't know what happened in that regard.
imho his article portrays the darwin project unfairly.
and yes i agree with him that apple shouldn't require an nda to download the dev tools.
apple shouldn't require an nda for online members because online members and student devs (for the most part) don't get any pre-release software.
but finlay is well respected on the darwin lists, and it seems people are trashing the darwin projects unnecessarily here.
nibs
Or perhaps in YOUR limited hindsight you could offer a solution that forces minors to lie to participate in something they view as both fun and interesting. In the previous posts above one such person suggested that Apple rewrite the contract to allow a legal guardian to sign.
Yes this is acceptable. In most states the parent or legal guardian can do such things, and they are legally binding, as that person is responsible in making decisions for that child. So instead of firing, or whatever you would call giving a volunteer the boot, they should have asked that boy's parents for approval and sent them a contract.
I have always been a proponent of setting up things, legal things, children that age can participate in without having to lie about their age. Apple should have taken the time to think that through instead of assuming that only PhDs would be the only ones that would want to hack Apple source.
So you don't misunderstand me, YES he lied, but to participate in something that obviously he enjoyed (yeah a kid can have fun coding, I did)that was legal and would teach him valuble work related skills. Sorry, but McDonald's or any other stereotypic blue collar job that most kids are "privledged" to work in is only going to enforce a poor work ethic, as their experience is going to be unpleasant. They need to realize, just like us adults we should do something we enjoy as a career. Yeah at the end of the day we need to clothe ourselves and our families, but that shouldn't also come at the expense of our personal fullfillment. If you come home miserable and bitch about how you hate your job you are just going to make yourself and family miserable.
30 years old...retired.....Open source? ahadsfhahaaaahahahah. dumbshit.
Those are some quality inferences... You're absolutely right. I am anti-democracy and pro-slavery (oh, and lazy and cowardly). Go status quo!
/. to post a story that is so obviously one-sided (and by the kid's own admission, incomplete). At the end of the day, thousands of eyes have seen "Evil corporation smacks down poor kid" rather than "Cautious/Lawyer-filled corporation covers its ass". There's a world of difference. All it would have taken is an email to follow-up with Finlay.
I never said I didn't think the kid should be allowed to contribute if he wants to... I was making the point that it's irresponsible of
It's also irresponsible of Finlay and his ADC account-sharing friends to think that surreptitiously circumventing a legal agreement is going to produce the desired result... That's where the "real world" comment comes in... In this world, you can expect repercussions when you break contracts. And that's what he and his friend did.
God forbid an opposing viewpoint...
Look the point is, he lied and got caught. There are some consequences. Pretty damned minor if you compare with someone like Jon Johansen. Apple legal has to cover ass because this kid is clearly not bound by any license agreement. Hopefully they'll work something out where he can contribute.
The GPL is a license which allows you to do things with a copyrighted work you would not otherwise be allowed to do. A contract is an agreement where two parties exchange something of value; both parties have to explicitly agree to the contract and have to be over 18. You don't have to agree to the GPL, and you don't have to give anything in value, and you don't have to be over 18. If you do anything with a copyrighted work that is not allowed by the GPL license, you are breaking copyright law.
Yes, Apple has the rights to restrict access to their source code, yadda yadda yah.
But somone under 18 can get the developer tools by purchasing Mac OS X. They can have software updates automatically installed by the system. This then breaks the develooper tools, and they can't download the new ones without an ADC membership.
This is a problem Apple can fix. No agreement is required to use the tools, especially since they include gcc and other open source code under the GPL.
Apple is basically telling those under 18 they can't develop with Apple's tools.
"YES he lied, but to participate in something that obviously he enjoyed"
So based on your logic if he enjoyed flying planes on a flight simulator his age shouldn't stop him from lying on a pilots license application? After all, anything goes as long as it's fun.
http://www.seapod.org/writing/mac-os-y.html
I worked for Apple when I was 17 years old. I signed NDA's.
This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it. -- John Adams
Your John Adams quote is a bit misleading. The full quote, found here, is:
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
As an atheist I found that quote surprising because John Adams was a very religious man. There is more about that quote here.
Does this mean that a minor can revoke the EULA and Sue say Microsoft for selling them a 'broken' product? This could be pure gold. Computers are most popular with teenagers anyways, even though it's generally the parents who own them. If anyone under 18 can revoke EULA fitness protection then there could be multi-billion dollar class action for companies selling broken software.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Don't know why I am even dignifying this with a response.
I doubt you could possibly take my comment out of context even further. People that are truly capable of real debate take these things into consideration. So to help you out here is the full quote which QUALIFIES the response I gave.
"So you don't misunderstand me, YES he lied, but to participate in something that obviously he enjoyed (yeah a kid can have fun coding, I did)that was legal and would teach him valuble work related skills."
Now that would be severly illegal. Or am I wrong?
Go take someone else's comments out of context.
I know that it's heretical to point this out, but the fact that 16-year-olds are worse drivers than 18-year-olds is at least in part because they don't have two years' experience.
The guy was wrong, though. If it were just restrictions (which already exist), it wouldn't be that big a deal. Many states are considering raising the driving age to 18, period. This seems to be based on two assumptions:
The quote of Steve misdecisions is by around 33% still. Before he entered Apple again it was about 80%.
By now Apple increases the quote by acting like this and charging the investigation of pixel anomalies of iBooks (of topic).
I registered a trademark from an invention that I made May 2000 when I had been at WWDC. This is stuck by a lawyer.
I don't know why, but think it is because I improved Apple's equipment and that's something they don't like!
:( - Steve blames us, let him go... back to Pixar!
Sweating and farting nervously on the verge of mental meltdown, ELQ reloads each of her precious OSNews pages, making sure all is well. Fifty Internet Explorer windows are open in Windows XP, it's gridning the hard drive to death. ELQ's cable modem and NIC activity LEDs are nearly solid from the raw frenzy of almost constant browser reloading. Eugenia's eyes twitch rapidly from window to window with Mercurial speed to make sure that any rogue comments do not escape her attention, always hitting her refresh buttons with pinpoint accuracy. No logical order for checking, purely random and impulse driven by raw Mediterranean temper, stopping for the occasional savage bite from a pork loin still affixed to the bone, Eugenia's eyes never leave the monitor.
"N-n-n-n NO! No TIME for Dance Dance Revolution, oh but it's been so long! I cannot allow the BASTARD flooders' comments to be seen. MY DOMAIN IS SACRED!"
Hair is frizzled and days unwashed, asscrack just barely half wiped in a frenzy to return to her monitor, having taken a large shit earlier. No time to flush! Her armpits are over-ridden with pubic hair, her fat flaps reek of B.O. and yeast from days of neglect and hour upon hour of sweating. Relentless sweating.
"Cannot to be keeps up this pace! I may be need to go to hospital for exhaustions" she pants in desperation, wiping the sweat from a matted hair lock with her week-old t-shirt offering.
The hour of judgement approaches! Comment number 45 in thread 374 is clearly of anti-Greek sentiment! It reads "Eugenia continues to post yet another story that's simply ripped off from other websites. How much longer can this continue? It's my opinion that she has poor editorial skills. I think they should be revoked."
"YOU BASTARD FUCK!", Eugenia erupts in raw hatred, simultaneously ripping a 120 decibel-at-1-meter fart into the back of her chair. "Nobody is to be attack my site!" Eugenia blasts away at 10 words per minute in a barely-coherant broken English. She's on a mission. After several hours, the words on the screen are completely shattered and in disarray, they make no sense. Eugenia is impressed with her English progress and submits her lousy retort. Relaxing only for several seconds to savor the rush, she continues her patrol, sleepless into the night.