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Congress Expands FBI Powers
Dave writes "Well, since the Patriot Act II never got off the ground, looks like Congress has done the Justice Department a favor, according to Wired News, and added in some of the most controversial provisions into a non-descript intelligence spending bill. Now the FBI can subpoena information about you from practically any business or organization - without approval or permission from a judge, and with a gag order on the targeted organization. These spending bills are generally considered confidential and usually are not subject to public debate, so despite the far-reaching implications of these new powers, it's not being publicized like the Patriot Act was. Time to get out my patriotic hat and pin before it's too late."
i for one welcome our new police-state overlords.
In Soviet United States, Big Brother watches YOU!
So... now we have even less freedom? I'm starting to think about moving to some country where we can't be persecuted like this! Like... Russia maybe?
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1984! 1984!
The Whigs were a political party.
For all the talk of the GOP shrinking government there sure seems to be a lot of expansion.
When is somebody going to stand up and say enough is enough? A better question is, who CAN stand up to this? I don't know enough about how laws like this get passed without consent from the citizens of this country, so I would simply like to know who I can write and bitch to so this doesn't happen.
I figured the fourth reich would rise eventually. Didn't expect it to be the US though.
Your rights removal has been courtesy of the RNC. If you want freedom, become a millionaire like everybody else.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Whelp, I'm ready when you are!
Your's Truly,
A Slippery Slope
How's the weather in Canada?
At least this is happening under a Republican administration, so all the lefties will raise a stink about it.
A Democrat would happily do the same thing, you just wouldn't hear about it - the right would shut up because they support it, and the left wouldn't want to speak out against "their guy".
Invading the privacy of innocent people to get at the guilty... I love it. You know, if the law of averages worked out in its favor, like if 99% of the people they spied on were involved in something, I wouldn't have a problem, but I'd imagine that less than 0.001% of the population is up to no good, and who knows how many they spy on.
I'll probably disappear now that I posted this, because I'm sort of enemy fucking combatant for disagreeing with the abuse of power...
evil adrian
Yeah. Great. My open response to Congress can be found at www.wtf.com
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
is it to the point where protecting my identity is a terrorist threat yet? i would say move out of the country but to where? all i have to say is 13 more months of Bush. please vote for anybody but Bush please.
before they come take me away?
A blog about stuff.
Only 1 more year, then Shrub's gone. It should be sooner -- in a saner world, Ashcroft and Bush would have been imprisoned for Treason for some of this stuff, war crimes for some of the rest of it, and impeeched for a the last bit. But hey, we don't live in a sane world right now, we live in Neo-con-bizzarro world.
Even after Shrub is thrown out on his ear, the little power trip Ashcroft and his cronies are on will either 1. be ignored and abused by the other side or 2. be reigned back into control, or outright removed.
Personally, my gut says it'll be #1 -- there's no way the democrats will try to push it when the republicans can use it as a campaign platform.
Guess what they say about a slippery slope is true.
I feel safer from terrorists already!
Uh-oh. I hope the FBI doesn't see I made this post with the word "terrorists" in it and IJ*&^Tu
Not available to public debate? Seriously, it's scary. When something that impacts us this greatly, and gives an arm of the government this much authority is put through and passed without us being able to say anything about it, that's WRONG. The people who are in office are there because we put them there to represent our views. When we are going to finally get that concept in our heads and boot these idiots from office?
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
I guess the administration couldn't get their way by "taking it to the people" so they just said "fuck the people" and did it anyway.
I am saddened and ashamed of our government. While I don't expect to like everything the government does, I do expect to have a government that operates in the open. Otherwise we're no better than the corrupt regimes that we criticise.
M
The United States Goverment Has just issued a statement denying rumors of a war waged with Iraq some months ago. According to the statement "We were never at war with Iraq. We have alway been great allies with Iraq.".
and try to enjoy it.
sigs, as if you care.
fuck tin foil hats... it's time to buy a shot gun, move into a log cabin and write ominous letters to the media.
Impeach
the Liars
Very patriotically yours,
Kilgore Trout
Too late? I'm afraid I have to tell you that it's a few years too late. Ashcroft has already subpoenaed your purchase records, and already knows that you don't have that there patriotic hat and pin, now, when it really counts.
Sorry, bub, but you're screwed.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
I'm SOO happy I don't live in the USA but in a democratic western country (thats sweden)..
If this goes on residents from USA soon going to move to china for the freedoom instead of the other way around..
I love Rush
All of this conservative rhetoric about the government as a bunch of jack booted thugs, and now, they go and do exactly what they claim to oppose.
After three years of total Republican rule, we have the largest and most intrusive government ever. So much for limited government and free enterprise out of the so-called party of limited government and free enterprise.
This is my sig.
I hope they spy on you and figure out why you're so worried about them spying on you.
good riddance to dissenters.
on with the parade!
i) Write a physical letter to all of your representitives in congress to berate/laud them (as appropriate) for their votes on this bill.
ii) Join the ACLU.
iii) Convince your employer to destroy all non-essential records of employee or customer transactions.
iv) vote, and convince all of your friends to vote, in the next federal election cycle.
v) If all else fails, vote with your feet. Canada is close by.
- - - Patent applied for and deliver us from evil
We (meaning people who are afraid of what the gov't is doing and are at least a little politically minded, not just /. readers) need to figure out how to get more people to care about their civil liberties and realize that the current government is taking them away. Until enough people are upset about this, it will not stop untill it is too late. Unfortunately, I don't believe Joe Sixpack will care about this until it starts affecting his fast food and TV viewing habits, and even then I think he'll be pretty accepting of it. I saw a bumper sticker recently, though obviously meant to be sarcastic, seemed to sum up the feelings that most people have on this topic: "That's OK, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway."
How can we help put the implications of things like this in face of more people and move them to action? It seems like an impossible task...
Looks like it's time to "get the hell out of Dodge"... anyone have any good recommendations of a growing economy, where American's can move to and work relatively hassle free?
I'm serious with this question... I've been considering it for a few years now.
RE: SLASHDOT.ORG
NO KNOWN ADRESS
You are hereby ordered to submit to a search and confiscation of all INFORMATION TERRORIST materials located on the servers providing material support for the domain SLASHDOT.ORG.
We will be dropping by with a few old shoe boxes a bit later to collect it all.
And please remember that your not allowed to tell anyone about this subp...DOH!
(GRRrrr)The FBI
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
My open response to Congress can be found at goatse.cx. Since we're getting assraped and all.
http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
What if the RIAA says downloading music is terrorism? Does that mean the FBI can go after suspected downloaders and file-sharers? *gets tinfoil hat*
You get the government you deserve
Given this recent revelation, I'm sure everyone is ready to trust the FBI with greater power and lesser accountability:)
It's really a shame though. I know a lot of the people working there are quite professional and care about doing a good job and protecting the Constitution of the United States, the ideals that make America a good place.
But after the legacy of Hoover misusing the agency many decades ago, evidently missing the boat on predicting the 9/11 catastrophe, the last thing they need is this kind of power handed to them by higher ups. Those superiors are political appointees with a vision for enforcement that shares more with authoritarian states than with the principles America was founded upon.
If I was a mid-level bureaucrat in the FBI, I'd make efforts to establish accountability policies, citizen review boards, etc. even if the current administration doesn't think they're necessary.
If they don't this, then they can be assured of getting tarred and feather during Congressional hearings 5-10 years from now, much like what happened to the CIA in the late 1970's.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Terrorist gun Waco Ruby Ridge Patriot Act Federal Reserve FBI CIA Osama bin Laden Saddam Hussein Echelon Carnivore
:P
Now, imagine that each time this entry crosses the Internet, government keyword parsers are triggered and the entire TCP session gets flagged for later review.
Reload often for maximum government annoyance!
I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
The link to that site has been posted quite a few times in /.'s discussions. He claimed that he was a Time Traveller from 2036. Among the "predictions" he made back in 2000, was the Black hole research at CERN, the Chinese Man mission, the Iraq war, the Columbia disaster, and most importantly the VAST increase in powers that the US Government gave itself to suppress citizens.
The last one supposedly leads to a US Civil war in 2004. I might have laughed at his posts in 2000, but with these more and more frightening developments, I can't help but wonder.
An interesting read nevertheless.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
wow... looks like you'se guys got the whole camel snuck under that tent flap and not just the nose...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U TF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=38dfebeb046f6049&seek m=ee7b8830.0311210732.aa8e00d%40posting.google.com
Dont you see. Your gouvernment fears you. Thats what its all about. Those in charge have cheated you and now they fear that the people will get back on them. Why would they need that kind of security if the where doing things for the peoples best?
FBI and CIA is only needed if your the president and are doing a bad job
I've noticed Presidents usually keep a lot of their predecessors' policies intact. Don't count on any Democratic successor to Bush to make a serious attempt to repeal any of this Patriot Act crap. IIRC, wasn't the "clipper chip" an idea initiated under the Clinton regime? Democrats may be "liberal" but they're just as quick to trade our privacy and freedoms for so-called security if they think it'll score points with voters.
Bush the younger is also increasing social programs at a rate 50% faster than Bill Clinton did. And that does not include the new perscription drug bill.
Dont live in US. dont care
I bet a number of democrats voted for this too.
When will people realize we need a complete turnover in D.C.?
You just keep sending the same people there over and over and keep getting the same results.
It's like banging yourself on the head because it feels good when you stop.
Throw all the bumbs out.
Elected office was never ment to be a life time occupation.
We now are faced with the political ruling class who have superior rights to the citizens.
Thats not a republic.
Thats a monarchy.
Throw them all out and you will not get crap like this warrentless searching.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Today's posting is brought to you by the words "Political" and "Asylum"!!!
But, hey, if you don't have anything to hide, what are you worried about?
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
MOD PARENT UP!!
although under the gun, they're just like most of us.
they seem to know what's going on.
they're not going to suck up to any corepirate nazi storm troopers.
we've heard they use gnu/linux stuff themselves now?
hey feds, we believe in you. go get those sco scamsters.
Officers: Knock Knock ISP: Who is it? Officers: FBI. We need information of people who have these IP addresses. ISP: But..tt it says RIAA.
> ..and the people said "Who can oppose the beast"
..and the phrase "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" comes to mind.
Sometimes when I think of technology, and how it invades our lives (sometimes in dark ways) that phrase makes perfect sense...
We have been lazy and we are losing our freedom because of it.. Technology like fire must be constantly monitored lest the servant become the master.
How long until we need to rotate the American Flag icon 180 degrees?
(That may sound like a troll if you haven't read the.. what's it called? oh ya.. Constitution)
When the 1st Amendment no longer protects your voice.
And when the 4th Amendment no longer protects your privacy or your suff.
Thank God we have the 2nd Amendment to tell our elected representatives that enough is enough.
It's time to put "... from my cold, dead hands" back where it belongs.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
What pisses me off, is that since 9/11 loads measures have been taken to improve security, usually at the cost of personal privacy.
IMHO it's just opportunism to tighten the noose by using the 9/11 excuse. People are still scared so it's quite easy to pass the laws and the government is scrambling while it can.
I seriously doubt monitoring the whole population will lead to anything conclusive. I mean, terrorists are not fools, they'll use covert method and encryption to communicate.
And anyway, anything called the Patriot Act would make me suspicious in the first place.
I'm a conservative republican, and I think these new regs are total garbage, and dangerous as hell. I think part of the problem is that the Patriot Act was never truly as bad or draconian as the critics made it out to be, and now it's like the boy who cried wolf when people complain.
More importantly, just to throw in my 2 cents of flamebait - if you RTFA you'll see they accomplished this by 'expanding' the definition of financial institutions. You see, the ability to do this (get financial institution records without judicial review) was heavily pushed and used by Janet Reno and the Clinton administration. Back then of course, it was part of the "drug war" - a favorite stalking horse of mainstream politicians of all stripes seeking street cred for being firmly against crime. And then it was only the 'wacko' right wingers and libertarians who said anything and they were dismissed. And look how it has so easily been expanded. So you fucking pinkos think of that next time you are demanding any kind of universal government anything or universal gun registration. Then you'll remember what the republicans have forgotten - the importance of limiting government power, no matter how good the excuse they cook up.
As much power as the FBI has been given, I'd hardly claim that they've been abusing it. If you want to get the tinfoil hats out when they start abusing these powers, fine. But until then, enough with the "sky is falling" doomsday rhetoric.
Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
J Edgar Hover would be proud.
...patriotic hat and pin
Is it just me or am I the only one who had visions of an Uncle Sam voodoo doll when I read that?
For example, it's interesting that the gambling industry is acting like this bill is targeted at them personally, when it actually mows over pretty much ANY business that moves money internationally.
I love this qoute:
The FBI says it can't say how many times it has issued itself NSLs because of national security.
Why is the FBI Issuing ITSELF national security letters? What is it doing that it doesn't know it is doing?
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Come watch the violence inheirant in the system!"
Sadly, it's starting to look like reality.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
One easy way to correct all of these granted powers is to focus it on to the real problem and nothing else. Like...
These powers are intended for fighting terrorism only. If these powers are used for anything else then the evidence should be thrown out of court. Just like illegal search and siezures.
If it's terrorist related it's applicable. If it's something else then follow normal channels.
Simple as that unless I'm missing something?
OU RULES!!
I would really like to agree with you but I am just too cynical. I think we will have candidates who will campaign against these greivous affronts to our liberties to get in office and then forget all those campaign promises and use the new laws as shamelessly as the current administration. Don't you think the same money will be paying off the new people just as well as the old?
Plus I am not so sure the current administration will get voted out. The economy is getting stronger and if jobs start returning that will be more than enough to get bush the votes he needs even if the cognescenti realize how little affect the president has on the economy.
I am really getting discouraged about the changes I see in the US. Not just this but corporate control and special intrests steering the country. I think all these slashdotters posting about emmigration may be on to something.
Is there anyone here with a good enough grasp of history to give us some perspective on this? Seriously, are we headiing toward a revolution or will this blow over?
It is not enough to succeed, others must fail. - Gore Vidal
I like to be able to fly on an airplane to visit my family or get work-related training.
I start to wonder how much I can participate in the public debate without being turned away at the airport.
For example, time-limited disclosure. If the FBI think that I'm channeling funds to a terrorist organisation and want to get hold of my paypal records to check on that then fair enough. And if they don't want me to know that they've tried to do it, then fair enough too. Until they establish that I'm not a terrorist. At which point, I want to know what's been happening. So have time-limited secrecy. By default, any use of these powers could be disclosed 3 months (say) after it occurred, unless the investigators have appealled to a higher authority to keep it secret.
Frivolous abuse of power is then discouraged (because every investigation that fails to find anything interesting is published) and systematic abuse of power is at least partly discouraged (because if you want to cover up what's happening, you're going to have to get a judge to agree to it after 3 months).
1) FBI can subpoena information about you from practically any business or organization
2) without approval or permission from a judge
3) a gag order on the targeted organization
4) spending bills are generally considered confidential and usually are not subject to public debate
5) not being publicized
Goddammit, why is it that so much of the science fiction I read is coming true? Just recently, I decided to read Starship Troopers, where the whole damn book is about how the 20th century democracies failed leading to a system that voluntary military service had to be completed before a person became a citizen.
I won't even mention 1984 (oops) or Farenheight 451 (oops again!).
This shit has been predicted for over 50 years, now! The visionaries spoke and were ignored.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
You know we have these things called Presidential Elections every four years, right? Heck, I think we got one of these there elections coming up in less than 365 days!
Well go out and vote for the Other Guy.
Remember that the DoJ and FBI all fall under the jurisdiction of El Presidente.
What is music when you despise all sound?
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
Worse than the actions of terrorism, is the decline or loss of Corporate profits,
and corporate profits are what the "war on terror" is protecting/enhancing.
The congress has just passed a law which violates the fourth amendment. Somebody needs to sue to have it overturned, and quick.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Not intending this to be a troll, but something about Bush's speeches always grated on me. I finally figured out why: his prolific use of words like "freedom" and "democracy". Not so much that he said them but the sheer frequency of its usage.
What bugged me was that he feels he needs to keep saying it. Ever notice that China is officially the "People's Republic of China" despite very little representation for or by the people? Then there's the "Democratic Republic of Congo", which isn't democratic. And let's not forget the "Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea"--a 2-for-1 deal there.
My 2 cents: the more someone feels the need to use rhetoric to hammer a point, the less that point happens to be true.
As long as Americans have it in their heads that their constitutional rights are still protected, they'll go on their lives peacefully until something like, oh I don't know, the ozone is gone or winter no longer happens anymore. As scary as it is to start saying shit like this, Mark My Words, we're in for a civil war within the next 30 or 40 years at this rate. They're fooled around with and screwed up every constitutional right and amendment we have. Pretty soon they'll be exercising the lack of our rights, and if they get that far, they'll start doing stuff like chipping people and screwing them over if they don't like them. Tommarrow people will be trying to make a living and they can't, and unlike in max headroom, those people in the fringes won't go about their daily lives happily. All it takes at that point is a few more people to say fsck it, I hate this and to pick up a gun or knife, and you've got civil war.
The number of protesters will continue to grow year after year after year, until what happened in the soviet union in georga happens here. People will get tired of the bullshit and getting no straight answer and with the goverment giving itself ample time to play with the system.
Seriously, think california's ballot system will be fixed by 2k5? I sure don't. How long can a geek keep a stupid person fixated?
"We want electronic voting."
Nerd: Sure, I'll make it.
1 year passes
"Um...you didn't do it right. We want it to check for security and work properly when tallying."
Nerd: The tech is still developing. Give it another year.
1 year passes
"Still isn't working properly."
Nerd: I'll get on it right away
Yet another year later
"We want you to print out the ballot to proove it tallies correctly, some landslide elections look suspicious"
Nerd: Ok, but it'll take awhile for everyone to change their systems, give it 2 years.
2 years pass for the implementation of printers.
"but now the ballot is printing out with the correct vote but it isn't being tallied, I want it to be tallied too."
Nerd: I didn't know you wanted it to be tallied, ok.
"Um..now it's stored on an insecure medium and broadcasted on an insecure medium, and the votes are still coming in wrong. Fix it."
Nerd: Ok, but I'll need another few years to fix it as well.
2 more years pass.
"Um, now the master server isn't working right, can you fix that?"
Nerd: Sure. Gimme a few months...
And by this time, everyone loves a certain party and the other party is somehow out of power. But nobody cares, all the elections are fixed and nobody said "that's enough, fix it and fix it now or we're going back to regular ballot until something that works comes along".
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Doesn't the US have militia groups who're suposed to stop the government from going out of control?
I agree 100% (and that is rare). My question is: when is the public going to actually do something about it? Its not like the Republicans are even being that discrete about it, their "screw everyone except major corporations" attitude has become so in-your-face it seems to be a challenge to us like "oh yeah, well what are you gonna do about it?" I have yet to figure out a way to pry the apathetic masses from their televisions long enough to get their attention. Anyone have any suggestions?
every time a republican dies a queer angel gets his wings
The media, however, needs to make a big issue out of the innocent people whose rights are trampled by misuse of power. It is for them that the system of checks and balances was created to begin with....
Its media attention like this that will build the political motivation to oppose these new laws
I think that part of the reason no one will do anything about this is that the media is giving 24/7 coverage to Michael Jackson, and almost no coverage to issues like this.
Free your ecomony and enact the FairTax
So does anyone know which bill in congress this actually is? I'd like to sound somewhat educated when I write my representatives by being able to reference the actual bill and/or passage that seems to be so troubling.
Also, if anyone has a generic letter written for this issue, they should post it here to help encourage everyone to use it and write more of there representatives.
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
I know your post was meant as a joke, but the scary part is that you are not that far off. I am an atheist, but I had countless debates/discussions about this with my boss (he is a Mormon). Although I am very skeptical about their prophecies, a lot of the details coincide with the recent history.
:-)
To stay on subject, as far as I remember it, the next Reich will be lead by a German (or a descendant), educated in the US, democratically elected. The prophecy describes a few events (a war in the middle east, fall of the house of Windsor etc.) leading to the climax.
Anyhow, I would ask him for a few links to the related materials, but he is out for the day. Maybe somebody else can post some relevant info.
Btw, overall, I think we are still on target
In SOVIET RUSSIA, you persecute the FBI!
Ironically, according to the ACLU the 2nd Amendment has never been an individual right. It was only a collective right (aka government militias).
Now that the ACLU's ox is being constanly gored by the erosion of 1st and 4th A rights, maybe they'll speak up for the 2nd.
But we both know that the ACLU is more likely to put up a nativity scene on the White House lawn than to defend the 2nd Amendment.
Ever since the Patriot Act was passed this administration has been getting scrutinized from every single direction imaginable. From privacy advocates, human rights watchers, mass media and left wing conspiracists right on down to right wing conspiracists, NAMBLA and the Council on America-Islamic Relations. Name your group, they've all been watching.
Does anyone care to guess how many violations or abuses that have been uncovered where a private citizens rights have been violated?
Did anyone guess Zero? Because thats exactly how many violations there have been. Zero. Period.
The powers granted by the Patriot Act have helped to uncover and break up Al Queda cells and even prevent the detonation of a dirty bomb in New York by Jose Padilla.
All this hype about Joe Q. Citizen being harassed is nothing but scaremongering.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
Don't like it here in the good old US of A?! Piss off and move to fucking China, asshole!!!111
-- A proud patriot and Republican voter
yes, the government is playing 'big brother,' seeing what books you read in the library. that's why they said in septermber they've NEVER used this power of the patriot act.
i'll admit the possibilities are scary, but you've gotta have some faith in your government. especially with a matter that is temporary (remember, pat act has an expiration date).
http://www.kucinich.us/index.php
He looks like a geek, sounds like a geek, and says everything that needs to be said about changing our gov't, so of course he's getting ZERO publicity and not being taken seriously, but he's the REAL DEAL. Unfortunately I thin he'd try to change things and end up getting screwed by congress, but I think he's our only real hope for change. he said he'd repeal NAFTA for chrissakes... http://www.kucinich.us/issues/
-GDH-
Unfortunatly, if you rise up against the US Government, you are a terrorist, and such a movement would likely be crushed by the military, which is mostly right-wing.
And over 100 years from now, you can enjoy quaint little re-enactments between the 'insurgents' and the 'government'.
Oh yeah, when the get around with a novel, have a couple of British actresses play a couple of the insurgent-born rich girls.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
They are anti-abortion. (oh wait, btw that bill was directly modeled after the Nebraska law which was struck down, pandering assholes)
Just wanted to note that it was directy modeled on it, and then directly addressed the problems that the supreme court said were problems.
link to goatse
link to goatse
link to goatse
...
link to tubgirl
link to goatse
You are quite correct in your assessment. Unfortunately, it's even worse with democrats.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Cold, eh.
You should totally be an envangelist. After I read that, I yelled out TESTIFY! Everyone around my office looked in to see if I was ok. I assured them that I was, but they didn't seem to believe me. I am so ready for 2004 to be here. I'm calling for regime change.
Seems a bit all encompassing to me. I think I sold lemonade at a "financial institution" on my street corner when I was six.
We've since gotten rid of all of our records of transactions. I hope the FBI doesn't come looking for any of them.
The "hype" that you so casually brush to the side is the fact that the government is simply making itself less and less accountable for its actions. Do you have the slightest clue as to why the Constitution was drafted the way it was? The limiting power it (supposedly) has? It's to keep government from growing out of control. Unfortunately things like the 4th Amendment are considered relics these days, where fear and the wreckless pursuit of "security" are at the forefront.
Regardless if anyone has been "harrassed" or not (and they have already, and don't get me started on civil asset forfeiture laws) the government will continue down this path, and I don't see the voting population of this country seeing too much of a problem with it. By the time they will it will be too late.
I was in the London protests against Bush last week, and it's stuff like this that makes me glad I picked the 'Shamed by your stance on civil liberties' poster.
Here is an article I wrote about the experience for those interested.
Nope, I'm planning for another 4 years of Republican dominated leadership. Maybe if the Democrats could put down their bong pipes for a couple of minutes and put out a reasonably clear message and a reasonably charismatic leader we'd have somewhere to go but right now... nope... don't see it happening.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Bush had Osama or Saddam (or both) stashed away in his hat for a week-before-election-time "capture." Not a very trusting type, am I? Oh well, time will tell..
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I'm the systems administrator of an ISP. If the FBI sequestered my company for information, without a judge ordered suponea, and with a gag order,
what would be the ramifications of politely telling them to fuck off while I notify the press?
Elijah Chancey www.elijahsadventure.com nomadic IT consultant, bicycling across america "all that you touch / and all
but I own a .50 cal rifle, and they're illegal there I hear.
Oh, well.
You just made the list. The FBI will be visiting you soon.
With a 40% chance of a Socialist front moving in overnight from the south. Tomorrow's lows are in the 30s, highs are in your den. Let's cut to Debbie for the long term forecast ...
The right-wing has been doing things right for years, while we write short essays, donate a few dollars or email our representatives they have organized fundraisers, church events and gone door to door. I think its a matter of seriousness. They take what they do very serious. The go out into meat-space and change things.
Personally, I'm tired of being so certian that I'm right that I sit smugly back an do the bare minimum (if anything at all). Those radical hippies have turned me off on politics, but maybe their not what its all about?
Quack, quack.
and this would make sen. joe mccarthy proud.
i'm waiting for the committee on unamerican activities to get cranking before i jump onboard this bandwagon.
(btw...i'm being way sarcastic).
"Let's get angry and throw tomatoes at the United States Government!
Psst! By the way, buy this while you're at it..."
It wouldn't suprise me if the poster works for Perfectimagemarketing.com. What's better marketing than posting through Slashdot?
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
Compare the pea shooter they graciously have to the hardware they get. And if we have any military readers, lets say hypothetically your senior officer tells you to open fire on Silder451 here, who is potentially armed and dangerous. Do you do it? Not quite as cut and dried as that oath to protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, is it?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The climate on the southern west coast is quite mild. They get very little snow in the winter. Probably the least out of any major Canadian city.
You want to revolt, then grow a spine and do it. Stop yapping and act already.
Each television season gets increasingly boring, so we could do with a good high farce or slapstick comedy, even if its on the news.
Oh, and I already own lots and lots of guns, so watch your back for the counter-revolutionary terror, Sparky. ;-)
--- Ban humanity.
Too late, Diebold has already programmed their voting machines.
There's a left wing in the US congress? Are you talking about Nader? How many seats does the green party have in congress?
*applause*
Our society can be changed (for better or for worse) through the use of four boxes. Soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
What the kook you're replying to so desperately needs to understand is that there are some Damn Good Reasons why the four boxes are intended to be used in the right order.
That's allright. I've got half a mind to vote for Bush just to see if those traincars with the shackles in them are for real!
Time to get out my patriotic hat and pin before it's too late.
While I strongly disagree with these new provisions, I think you are in very poor taste to refer sarcastically to patriotic imagery. (Although those hats are pretty cheesy looking).
Obviously you care enough about the laws of this country to make this news submission, so don't go around dissing patriotism (unless of course you are a communist or terrorist, in which case I would expect it from you).
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
I'd suspect that those 15 are what you could term the "radical right wing" of the Republican Party - i.e., they're "conservatives".
And with only 163 nay votes, a lot of Democrats voted for the bill too, or were too damned lazy to vote at all.
Perhaps we should take a suggestion from these people.
They have the balls that this country once had.
I dislike Bush and the wonders he's wrought, but the problems are not exclusively Republican - after all, the RIAA's attack dog for destruction of copyright is a Democrat, as well as many of those who backed Patriot Act I - The Abortion; the DMCA, I think (but don't know), was a bipartisan production. While the Democrats haven't had the open-mouthed fantasy of fascism that President Bush and his chosen brethren appear to have, people will take as much power as they can, particularly if they think no one's looking.
There is plenty to indict the Republicans for, but power-hungriness is probably a bipartisan sin, countered only by watching government like a hawk and making sure the voters know what their government is doing.
Our society can be changed (for better or for worse) through the use of four boxes. Soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
I like this idea, but take it a step further:
1. Ballot & Jury to decide what groups to eliminate
2. Ammo to load the tools for the job
3. Soap to clean the blood off your hands
A system that truly works together for maximum effeciency, and since we have to color in the boxes on the ballot I vote we chose the colored group to eliminate first.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
... That America will never be a dictature because people would oppose any attempt to hijack the governement for evil purpose. People would revolt and do barricade. Thus there will be pax America forever.
To which I responded, look at the german example. Look at how Hitler organised its own turf and slowly took over the Wehrmach republic. I think any democracy is weak to such type of hijack. Especially if it is done carefully and slowly over the time of years. And call me paranoid but i think this is what is happening with a very carefull way here :
* First terrorist loose all right
* then police is given incredible right over citizen
* then law/politic is made so that nearly everybody can be accused of a crime.
* somebody , preferably an external group to which nobody in the country identify glady (in our case taliban and Hussein) is made as the arch-enemy
* it begins to be seen as a big crime to be anti patriotic especially when it touch the above subject
* Add the above together and see another step toward erosion of individual right by AGAIN giving more power to police.
* People start to disappear or be imprisonned without right. At first criminal. Then normal citizen.
* By that point it begins to be too late. Either people react or are imprisonned in the "Patriotic" discourse and can't think straigth anymore.
[...]
Well I dunno for you but I am feeling a big chill suddenly...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Yes, Virginia, you do have a choice! No, voting third party is NOT wasting a vote and if you can educate your friends on this point then you and I and the other people who think outside the FBI directed box can make a difference. With enough third party candidates in office, the scales can tip. Look into libertarian, green, and other party systems. Vote independant. Write in. Unless the state you live in has some inane requirements for putting a third party on the ballot to be voted on (in which case lobby - yeah, I hate to use that word in a way - to get the law changed to make it easier for third party candidates to be put on the ballots) then you DO have a choice. Exercise. Send a message to the "good-old-boy two part system" by putting someone else in office. Hell, that is just what the current American government system needs is a nice wake-up call that the current two party system is fscked and new blood is needed.
Whew, sorry about the mini-rant there.
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
"What no one seemed to notice was the ever widening gap between the government and the people...And it became always wider...
...or, rather, provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway...
... by the machinations of the 'national enemies' without and within) and the government's 'responses' to them, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us...
...
"The whole process of this disconnect coming into being was built around diversion...
"Nazism gave us some other dreadful, fundamental things to think about
"Nazism kept us so busy with continuous changes, accusations and 'crises' and so fascinated
"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted', that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing...
"Each act curtailing freedom... is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow...
"You don't want to act, or even talk, alone... you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble' or be 'unpatriotic'...But the one great shocking
occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes...
"That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring: the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit (which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms) is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.
"You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father... could never have imagined."
Source: They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1938-45 (Chicago: University
of Chicago Press, 1955)
__________________________________
"We will not wait as our enemies gather strength against us. In the world we have entered, the only path to safety is the path of action, and this nation will act." G.W.Bush, West Point, June 2002
"In this new world, declarations of war serve no purpose. Our enemies must be defeated before they can harm us. I will never declare war, but will take action!" Adolph Hitler, June 1940
"Not too many people will be crying in their beer if there are more detentions, more stops and more profiling. There will be a groundswell of public opinion to banish civil rights," Peter Kirsanow, Bush's controversial appointee the U.S.
Commission on Civil Rights
"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people, and the West in general, into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
Osama bin Laden, October, 2001
I pecked about on the US Congress's (web site and was unable to find a roll call of who voted for and against the bill (HR 2417). Maybe it's there somewhere, but then again, maybe the scoundrels did not want anyone to know who supported this bill's intrusive search powers.
Has anyone found a roll call anywhere?
fuckin' shitbirds the greatest enemies of Freedom and perpetrators of mass murder in the 20th century.
Some of my worst and most boring college profs too.
Yes because lord knows only idiots vote republican and you have sigle handidly shown that all republicans are idiots and have no foresight whatso ever.
If calling to discuss this mention H.R. 2417, which I beleive is the bill number that they are discussing. House resolution H.RES. 451 was the one approving the conference report specifically I beleive.
The sky is falling, and we are all guilty! Guilty! Guilty!
I'd love to see the article that allegedly says whatever the post alludes to, but it doesn't exist. For such a blatant grab of power, you would hear all of the current opposition (democrats) wailing and gnashing their teeth, but instead we hear them complaining about giving prescription drugs to old people and an energy bill that bans MTBE.
In short, get a grip people, this is FUD! The Patriot act doesn't do even half of the things that people say it does, but propagandists would have you believe otherwise. Apparently many of you are gullible enough to believe this. I doubt that this bill (if it does exist), has anything to do with what the poster alleges, also.
By the way, the latest service pack of Windows XP sends a copy of every piece of pornography that you view, directly to Bill Gates and John Ashcroft, so they have proof when they arrest you for pedo-beastialic terrorism...
-- Len
Anybody read Tommy Franks' comments about how you only need a WMD attack against the U.S. and the constitution will be swept aside in favor of a military government?
Anyone know if it's true whether the political ratio of high ranking military officers is 9 Republicans for every Democrat?
[o]_O
I would like to encourage you to watch this great lecture streamed through the internet. Prof. David D. Cole of Georgetown University Law Center explores the parallels between the first Red Scare, the era of McCarthyism and todays equivalent... terrorism. If you have a good internet connection with Real player and an hour of your time, I would recommend catching this enlightening lecture. To learn how denying the civil liberties of others may later trample on your very on liberties and rights in the future. Parts of the original Patroit Act are in this lecture as well.
"Freedom and Terror: September 11th and the 21st Century Challenge Freedom"
by Professor David D. Cole, Georgetown University Law Center
Real Player stream
The lecture is available by webstream on demand:
http://www.umich.edu/~sacua/webstream.htm
For more information on the Academic Freedom Lecture
Series please see:
http://www.umich.edu/~sacua/AFL/afllecture.html
----
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't trade unionists.
THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
THEN THEY CAME for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Martin Niemoeller, Lutheran Pastor.
Please, do us all a favor and either study the period that you speak of before speaking about it, or simply stop pulling bullshit out of your ass.
Thanks.
asswipe
I haven't seen one piece of information that states that the Patriot Act or another infringement on our rights has improved our 'security'. You'll reply that we haven't had a terrorist attact in that time. You know what, you're right. You'll also notice that we've bombed or occupied most of the nations that aid these terrorist. These terrorist have also targeted sites closer to home (Israel, Saudi Arabia).
The FBI has ALWAYS had the power and authority to stop wrong-doers. What this legislation does is further remove the checks and balances that keep our government from becoming the tyranny we defeated over 200 years ago. Point: Pre-911 you want to tap a phone get an emergency warrant from a judge. Now you can just tap without impunity.
I could go on and but it will mean more if you look it up yourself!
Pardon the rant, but I'm sick and tired of the sheep hiding behind the 'its the government so its ok' or the 'if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to hide' arguments.
We've spilled alot of our blood to secure our freedoms and now we're pissing it away in the name of security. The FBI knew about the 911 attack. The bureacracy stopped the flow of information to the necessary people. Why don't the fools in Washington legislate THAT!
I am going to shoot the president . . .
Of PETA
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
According to John Titor, a mysterious being that appeared on the internet years ago, claiming that an American civil war is about to happen and the first signs will be appearant during the 2004 election. He said that the war was with the rural areas versus the city areas, and to see where we would be safe from nuclear holocaust we could just look at the map of the 2000 election -- constantly giving hints in his meanings that it's left versus right.
Is it a crazy maniac, a real time travele, or a guy that actually might've hoaxed something that might become a reality? Scary thoughts though.
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
Quote from the Wired article:
[quote]Justice Department officials tried earlier this year to write a bill to expand the Patriot Act. A draft -- dubbed Patriot II -- was leaked and caused such an uproar that Justice officials backed down. The new provision inserts one of the most controversial aspects of Patriot II into the spending bill.[/quote]
Why is this process allowed? Why can an article that is completely unrelated to the bill be tacked on, and passed as a whole? "A spoon-ful of sugar helps the medicine go down", I suppose.
Methinks tactics like this should be outlawed, as it can create a conflict of interest: "I don't really like section Z of this bill, but if I don't pass the rest of this bill my constituents will be livid and throw me out of office..."
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
So to answer the question, how do we keep laws like this from happening? We elect congressmen who will not vote for them, and when a bill comes up we contact them and tell them not to vote for it. They do actually try to vote according to how the people in their state want it done because otherwise they couldn't get re-elected. If that doesn't work and it actually gets made into law, the only way to stop it is to either have your congressman introduce a new law that counters it, or to have it challenged in court and have the supreme court revoke the law.
SCO.com uses Linux
You mean when the police dress up as anarchists and cause trouble so as to give protestors a bad name, and then use the trouble to justify cracking down?
"I don't care who the people vote for, as long as I get to pick the candidates." - Jay Gould
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How can the erosion of Civil Liberties be considered "Patriotic?"
I seem to recall Pastor Niemoeller was a Lutheran minister... and that Martin Luther was a noted anti-semite? Didn't many Lutheran clergymen applaud Kristallnacht?
Or did somebody slip me some of the same crack George the Second's obviously been smoking too much of? Let's google and see:
"In 1935, the Nazis published a popular edition of [Luther's] pamphlet The Jews and Their Lies, in which he wrote: 'So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of Our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for 300 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.... We are at fault in not slaying them.'"
Ah, yes, I thought so. Much, much more easily accessible with a little googling.
Boot the idiots and you'll just replace these idiots with a whole new set who will get the same bad information and get paid off in the same way.
Boot the idiots and the idiots in the white house will just get more power.
Only if we boot and boot again (reboot, of course) and continue to boot will anything change and that seems less than likely.
I.e., they'd have military weapons.
And if you count the National Guard (technically state and not Federal troops) the states basically are as well-armed as the Feds.
Also, you underestimate just how hard it is to kill an armed revolution/rebellion when all the populace is against you. A tank in a city is nothing more than a target.
If you stop caring you lose an essential bit of your humanity - sacrifice your sanity instead!
Besides, ammo's cheaper than whiskey, and this economy's not pulling anyone out of the poorhouse anytime soon.
I'm expecting a fat paycheck with a conservative thinktank!
The current administration is rife with people who are abusing power in ways not seen in decades. The FBI is being used to check on antiwar protesters.
What a laugh. We wonder if Laura Bush has hundreds and hundreds of FBI files of prominent Democrats...
I have but one thing to say. Think Robert A. Heinlein.
"If this goes on..."
It's so much better than LockerRoom. I mean, why settle for butyl?
Damn, I meant text of the bill, not article. Still, the article only quotes critics of the bill, without any answer by supporters. Worse yet, simply citing the actual text of the bill would put to rest any incredulity people like myself have. Until then, it is just yammering by the usual suspects.
-- Len
GET YOUR WEAPONS READY! --DR.LIGHT
You're obviously not a betting man. I would love to put down some serious money at that price (not least 'cos I know I could lay off the bet with a real bookie).
[For the click-impaired : current odds on 2004 election with William Hill - Democrats 6 to 4, Republicans 2 to one on]
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
Since the government has no secretly passed a bill further curtailing our privacy, I feel it is neccessary to make the following ISR comment:
In Soviet Russia, government protects YOUR privacy!
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Funny, the "piddling attacks" in Iraq ARE upsetting the current regime. If the US can't keep order there, imagine trying to keep order in a vastly larger country, and more important, maintaining Big Business (tm) in such a condition of "piddling attacks".
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
"You don't need the Bullet when you got the Ballot, Ya dig"
Chocolate City, by George Clinton & P-Funk.
A song all about the fact that, when the song was written, there were more African-American voters in Washington D.C. than there were White voters, and if they could get organized they could vote themselves into positions of power to help fix the inner-city problems & help curb Racisum. As opposed to getting violent and only adding to the number of problems.
Well, several decades ago, while Lyndon BJ was justifying his war in VietNam, and was followed by Nixon, many moved up to Canada to avoid the same problems that are re-occuring today in America.
The problem is that whatever happens in the U.S. spills over into Canada, and affects us also, if we wish to travel. We have had many cases recently, such as Mr Arrar (born in Syria, but Canadian for over 20 years) who are simply trying to exercise their human right to travel and see family abroad, and are picked up while in Transit to another country (Mr Arrar was subsequently sent to be TORTURED in a Syrian jail for 10 months).
Another one more recently, saw a Canadian who was convicted once (minor theft), and denied the right to travel to the U.S. - he was told even if he was given a pardon in Canada, that U.S. authorities wouldn't recognise it. He was finger-printed and is now listed in the U.S. system as a criminal. Another example, Ross Rebagliati Olympian, who never smoked pot (I know the guy, he never did), nor was convicted, but was denied the right to see his family in Palm Springs for many years. We have no choice in many cases, due to flight routing, but to fly through your country and it is over-powered FBI agents and the like that are infringing on our human rights.
I am happy to hear that most of you are unhappy with what is happening to your country, as it is of grave concern and should not be taken without mass protest, b/c many, many innocent people in my country that I know are being affected by it. What ever happened to the Common Law statement: 'Innocent until proven Guilty' Most of the cases above clearly demonstrate that has been forgotten.
Yours truly concerned,
Hugo@Shebbeare.com , Montreal, born in Vancouver, educated at Vesalius, Boston Uni. Brussels, Belgium
Zero violations?! Is that why not just foreign nationals but even US citizens are being held in Cuba at camp X-Ray as "enemy combatants?" Is that why they're being tied up and interrogated? Is that why they can't have a lawyer? Is that why they can't speak to their families? Is that why they are waiting there, indefinately, without a trial in sight? Where's due process?
I'm fine with the cops PROACTIVELY having extra troops on hand and dispersed throughout the crowd.
I'm fine with the cops PROACTIVELY having vehicles strategically placed to remove any individuals who break the law.
I'm fine with the cops PROACTIVELY having cells set aside for possible law breakers.
I'm fine with the cops PROACTIVELY having riot gear assigned prior to any demonstrations.
I am NOT fine with cops spying on citizens that have NOT broken ANY laws.
The laws that we HAD were a result of past abuses by the authorities.
Now we're seeing those protections removed.
Do a google search on:
fbi bomb bari
Educate yourself about your government's activities.
They are for less government regulation remember? (oh wait)
They are for less spending. (oh wait)
They are for the little guy. (oh wait)
You know, for those reasons and others, I voted Republican in '96 and would have again in '00 if my car hadn't broken down on election day. I voted for the guy in my district (Jack Kingston) that voted yes.
At this moment, I am ashamed of saying that. It's as if the entire purpose of the Republican and Democratic parties have shifted completely to the opposite since Bush was elected.
The Republicans are now the liberals, wanting to change every damned law in a way that contradicts their original purpose so they can micromanage people's lives. The democrats are now the conservatives fighting to keep the laws as they were intended. God, even Bob Barr (R-GA) joined the ACLU after losing his district in the redistricting of Georgia.
Anyone wondering why this is a big deal, you need to ask yourself one question. What does the Justice Dept have to hide that makes them so determined to avoid citizen oversight? What are they doing that the people won't like?
Here's a list of who voted yea and nay.
Only on
Isn't it funny that those boxes have been neutered in reverse order?
We get gun control laws first, because noone "sane" would notice - they never get that far because it's not that bad yet.
Then, once there's enough gun control to make armed resistance too difficult to pull off, they start neutering the jury - re-working laws so jury notification can't happen, and twisting the legal system's procedures around until only idiots and sheep can get appointed to an actual trial jury.
Then they start disenfranchising everyone, finally moving on to trickery and outright ballot manipulation to get their way.
Then they start going after the protesters.
Sneak up slow enough, and you won't even be able to tell what's happening - after all, it's not like it's much worse than our parents had it, right?
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
Your right to bear arms isn't a threat to the government. It is, however, a threat to your kids, spouse, friends, neighbors, postman, local law-enforcement...
I could not disagree more. It is indeed a deterrent for reasons already stated in this thread. It's not about who has the bigger weapons. It's about having a means to resist if, God forbid, it ever comes to that. 2 million servicemen (the entire U.S. military, including all services, active, reserve, and guard) cannot hold back the other 250 million of us, even armed with sticks, tanks not withstanding.
Also, the U.S. military is composed of educated volunteer citizens. In other words, us. If it comes to true tyranny by our own government, many soldiers will leave their posts and join the resistance.
But there's a large gap between mass resistence to government tyranny, and a few paranoid, disillusioned militia members. I hope we can always tell the difference.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
"If voting really changed anything, they would have made it illegal by now"
Well, thanks. Now I understand why the U.S. won the Vietnam War.
that most of the people here crying about the government taking their rights away also support a ban on all firearms in the US therefore negating there ability to rise up against said government.
"Remember, Liberalism is when A gets together with B to decide how much money C should give to D. YOU'RE C !" Uh, what the hell? Last time i checked, being Liberal = being pro-freedom.In America, being liberal isn't the same as wanting less government, less taxes and more rights and freedom for the individual? What's your word for "fast", is it "slow"? So there won't be any misunderstandings.
BURN!
is that you don't talk about the Patriot Act.
... Judging by the number of posts here, I can see some of you have been breaking the first two rules of the Patriot Act...
The second rule of discussing the Patriot Act is: you DON'T talk about the Patriot Act...
declared a war against a foreign state.
Then the emancipation proclimation had no jurisdiction, since it was issued in the Union, and only applied to states "in open rebellion". If the south was viewed as a foriegn country, that law would have applied to nowhere.
People quick to hate Lincoln would do well to look
at what he had to say about slavery BEFORE becoming president. He'd hated it for a long time. Yes, it's true the the emacipation proclamation was on very shaky legal ground, and probably not within his jurisdiction to sign, and had ulterior motives. But it was all he could get away with at the time. It's much like, how later on FDR wanted to get into the war but had to hold back because isolanionists had a lot sway, and so he had to make do with halfway measures like the lend-lease act. Lincoln had to move gently with regards to slavery and do halfway measures or else nobody else would have gone along with it. So he wrapped himself in rhetoric about the union, and all that, because that would sell better.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I fully support the private ownership of weapons.
of course they came for them first natural enemy of Socialism and whatnot
Your children will ask you why you didn't do anything to stop the Arab wars that they just got drafted into fighting.
Your children will ask you why you didn't do anything to stop our crushing deficits from impoverishing them.
Your children will ask you why you didn't do anything to stop corporations from turning the USA into a sweatshop of indentured servants.
We must welcome our new rulers with open arms and suspended constitutions. For only our new rulers can keep us safe!
I am worried about the future.
There are too many parallels in the rhetoric surrounding these issues with the rhetoric of the American Civil War. For the man in the street prior to that war, the idea was not an issue of ideology, as much as an economic issue revolving around money and power - the concern being that the Northern states would take away the last vestage of Southern economic and political power (in the form of slavery and the slave state voting block in the Senate). At the precipice, neither side seemed willing to step back - and the South jumped, with the election of Lincoln and the secession of South Carolina.
While the overall issues are different, I think it can be instructive to look back at history and draw parallels for our own time. I think that we are looking down another precipice, the widening gap created by the fear of average Americans about the growing intrusiveness of our government, on the one hand, and the desire of corporations and government for safety and economic stability. These issues are emotionally charged, and no side seems willing to come to the middle ground. Unabated polarization can only serve to escalate the conflict. If the conflict goes beyond words in any significant way, I fear that it will tear this country apart; no one will win, and everyone will lose, in one way, shape or form.
There's usually an election coming up.
If the clowns in DC don't want to support you, write some more letters and find someone running for office who will.
Then get all your friends and their friends and their friend's friends out and VOTE.
Sure, you'll be on the government's list for your anti-American activities.
Sure, copies of those letters you've sent will show up in those governmental files.
Sure, there will be agents sent to investigate you.
But there's a very good chance you won't be killed.
When you look at that in an historical perspective, it really doesn't get any easier.
The government keeps trying to pass acts like this one and take away more and more rights saying its to combat terrorism. What I wonder, is how large is the terrorist threat against us? I'm sure most of what we know about the terrorists has been fed to us by the government. Perhaps it's possible that 9/11 was just a once in a lifetime type of threat. Also, I find it hard to believe that there is a significanly larger threat against us now than there was before 9/11. A large country like the USA that tries to keep a hand in the business of many countries around the world must have a large amount of threats against it at any time. Even if there was a large threat, these type of intrusive policies wouldn't be justified, but they would be even worse if there wasn't a large threat.
SIGFAULT
There is at least one Demo candidate who has revoking the PATRIOT act as a part of his platform - he's also got some good ideas about other problems in the U.S. Check it out:
http://www.kucinich.us/issues/patriot_act.php
Exactly.
Funny how the worse the USA gets the more people hype it up. Maybe we'll end up like the USSR with military parades all the time.
Times like these make me glad I have an ACLU member card in my pocket. I don't always agree with their stands, but I generally like their damned ideological persistence in defending civil rights.
You can join too: www.aclu.org.
Why do I say that? Because this country is so frightened that we are willing to give away our freedoms for a little bit of safety. Oh well. If we can't win the war, at least we can victimize ourselves.
Bring the tech companies over here instead! I could use the work :)
:P
:)
Seriously, though, I can't believe what you guys call "freedom". We don't technically have "freedom of speech" over here, so it's not legal to insult people all over the place, but I haven't had a problem with that yet. And you can always call your politicians a bunch of bastards over here and everyone will laugh and agree with you. Besides, voting is compulsory. You think that's a bad thing? It's against the law to not be allowed out of work to vote. Everyone gets their say, because they have to. You might not like that, I think it's fantastic.
Of course, Australia's been grovelling to the US a lot lately. Bunch of Tall Poppies, the lot of you!
Don't mod me down, making fun of people is the Australian way! It's fun!
Talk to everyone you know, everyone who'll listen and inform them of what's going on. That is the absolute best thing you can do. If everyone on this site would do that the message would certainly reach a large number of people quickly. Be accurate, be concise, be calm - keep it strictly to the facts, no preaching - and most importantly keep it simple at first.
I had a conversation about this several months ago with my father, aunt, uncle and some others. These are not stupid people by any stretch, but they could not believe what I was telling them in regards to these sorts of things. They were uninformed on this topic. I simply forwarded them links to text and analysis of the PATRIOT act, DMCA and a few other gems. Next time I talked to them they all agreed that it was bad news, really bad news. It definitely has given a new view of our current government.
Put the information out there and get people to see it - that's the kind of thing that will result in change. And it's something you can do yourself on a person by person basis.
We haven't had a terrorist attack on the continental US since then.
But we have had many, Many, MANY terrorist attacks on US citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan and so on.
"Terrorist" attacks against the US (as defined to include US citizens) is at an all time HIGH.
There almost isn't a day that goes by without 10 or more "terrorist" attacks.
How many attacks in 2000?
How many in 2001?
How many in 2002?
In 2003, there have been over a THOUSAND.
The Nazis were Socialists.Thats what "nazi" is National Socialist
Niemoller always gets twisted to work the commies in there.
When it gets down to it, your vote may make a difference in a Dem/Rep decision that it simply cannot for a third party. As somebody else said, we're really kissing two cheeks of the same ass, but I can think of one election coming up where I'll be able to vote Democrat and honestly feel it makes a difference. As far as congressional seats go, most people would do well to kick out the incumbents unless they've got someone like Feingold or Paul (IMHO).
The problem with third-parties is they just don't get the recognition and face time with the public that they need to compete fairly. The potential of the Internet to offset the TV ads and PR of the major parties is still largely unrealized, but maybe you could find a good resource on third-party candidates and include it in your sig?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Although I think this is bad in general -- huge opportunities to abuse it and plenty of evidence which clearly indicates they won't hesitiate to do so -- I tried to think about this critically. Who are they probably targeting here? I'd say ISPs... every ISP TOC document out there says that if they're asked to give out your personal information, you will be notified. I don't recall seeing that kind of written guarantee from any other organization, and I certainly haven't seen it done as an industry standard, as is the case with ISPs. Just a guess.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
This is one piece of fiction? that gets scarier every day. Highly recommended read.
..don't panic
Fortunarely for the tyrannists, military training in part equates to brainwashing.
Oh they're coming, and they've already got your new home all set up for you: http://www.c0balt.com/egg/insane.shtml
www.EscapeArtist.com has all the info you need to learn how to expatriate from America to any place in the world.
First, i don't think "most" people here support a ban on "all" firearms, and second, missles turn guns into blobs of steel, so what use is a gun if your facing the turret of a tank coming up your front lawn?
If you want to know how you can join the revolution, go to your local 2600 meeting. They will start meeting secretly soon because the Feds are already starting to snoop hard and infiltrate.
Emigrate to Canada
--
Power to the Peaceful
He seemed to be one just because he was to the Left of his opponent.
Clinton was more of a moderate with some Left leanings.
The two instances you've cited are good examples of that.
Not that being a moderate is bad. I think we need more moderates in government. But I also think we need more liberals in government. Or more guts in the liberals that we have.
...same as the old boss.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
Hmmm... leave it to the FBI to see a "human chain" as a threat. Here's another one:
So let's see here: we can't videotape the cops because they feel "intimidated," but of course the same doesn't apply to police, who routinely videotape activists. In fact, videotaping and photographing the police is essential to stopping police repression of peaceful protests.
And using the internet to "raise funds" and "coordinate activities" is suspicious?
I guess I should just turn myself in.
Fortunarely for the tyrannists, military training in part equates to brainwashing.
Nice troll post. I'll answer it anyway.
Enlisted men swear an oath to "obey the orders of the POTUS and the orders of the officers appointed over" them. They are conditioned to do so. But they are also taught law of land warfare, rules of engagement, and to disobey unlawful orders.
Commissioned officers, on the other hand, do not swear to "obey" in their oaths. In fact they are instructed to disobey direct orders if they think they know a better way to complete their mission.
In the event of a civil war or resistence it's the leaders who will decide what their units will do. It's left to the soldiers to decide whether to follow their leaders, switch sides, or go home. I have faith in our citizen soldiers to do the right thing.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
So not only are they seeking new powers and seeking to hide how those powers are used they are seeking to eliminate any form of oversight from our public representatives. They are seeking to act without ashering to any standards from their bosses, the American people. So, not only do we have to fear being investigated without a patina of due process but we have to face the prospect that a) we are paying for it and b) that our own elected representatives (I don't count Bush) have no way of knowing how are tax dollars are being spent or even if we are "winning."
What are the odds that in the future anyone who does ask how our money is being spent and if we are winning trhe fight will soon find themselves on the wrong end of an "anti-terrorism letter"?
It reminds me of "The Baron von Munchausen by Terry gilliam, or worse 1984. Both involved (semi) artificial wars that were being run by the givernments in secret in order to prop themselves up. Anyone who questions the status quo (or in the Baron succeeded in fighting the enemy) was sentenced to death or torture.
An aprocryphal story has often been told:
Benjamin Franklin was walking out of the Constitutional convention when somone approached him and asked "What have you wrought?"
To this Franklin Replied:
"A republic if you can keep it."
Have you contacted your Congressional Reps and/Or Senators?
Here
Here
Or Here
Non-Us Citizens have you asked your diplomats to explain to the U.S. government how this paranoia will kill foriegn trade?
(Hopefully) its not too late.
Think: War on Drugs
As of hearing this news I am recommending that people leave the United States. It was a good 200 years of freedom, but it's over. Anyone have any good ideas on where I can go?
So did politicians suddenly become honest saints? Did they stop putting pork barrel riders on unrelated bills? Did they stop giving kickbacks to large corporations? Did "conservative" suddenly get redefined to mean "operating at a huge deficit"?
Because unless these things happened, calling the idea that those Republicans in power may be operating at odds to their stated ideals a "conspiracy theory" is crazier than just about any actual conspiracy theory you can name that doesn't involve aliens.
Politicians -- rich Republican politicians in this case -- are doing favors for their friends the big corporation (particularly those who fund their campaigns, or whom they have other financial ties to eg. Haliburton). Favors meaning giving them lots of money that comes from taxpayers.
Republicans are more dedicated to lining their pockets than any stated ideal of "compassionate conservatism" or whatever idea they use to continue to sell their actions to the public. Your response: "Conspiracy theory!"
Or maybe you're just reacting to the idea that every Republican is in on the scam. Well, you could interpret the statement that way, but obviously it only matters what the Republicans in power are doing. That many Republicans are sincere isn't really relevent if they aren't the ones making the decisions to line the pockets of the rich.
Either way: Weak.
The enemies of Democracy are
While this country is a democracy, the fact is "power corrupts". With only two "effective" parties in power right now, the checks and balance system has some critical flaws when it comes to handling blips in history. When one party gains so much control either because of something like 9/11 or perhaps some stupidity by the opposing party or even effective modern day marketing and rhetoric, the balance can get completely one sided and the end result -can- be a corrupt government - it all depends on how righteous the people are that happen to be in power. I this case, most of our politicians are corrupt on some level - it's too simple and easy to say that they are stupid - while I think some of them easily buy into the party line or hyperbole that goes on - I also believe that many of these people also consciously rationalize they're beliefs even though in their hearts and perhaps also the public tell them otherwise. Republicans who control the majority of both houses of Congress and the White House will continue to support the efforts in Iraq even though a majority of the people they represent may disagree - that's a problem.
SOLUTION: We need a strong third party to represent people in this country - Perot blew it big time, but he could have led that third party. That will not remove all the problems cited above, but it will help significantly. If a third of the Senate are Democrats, a third are Republican and the remaining third are another party - it forces people to compromise - that's where I think an effective democracy according to the way the U.S.'s is structured will work. Our current system is too polarized, your either left or right, Democrat or Republican - being anything else is unfortunately ineffective - a large grass roots movement, akin to what happened with Perot is the only thing which I think can shake things up enough to work. The people that are in power will remain in power and since a signficant proportion have probably allowed their judgement and morals and ethics to be corrupted, until something is done to shake them back to reality - either by kicking them out of office or by getting a third party to force them to compromise - we have a potentially scary future ahead.
One final thing to think about - if our government does remain corrupt and get worse, then effectively the terrorists of 9/11 have succeeded at least in some of their efforts, they've managed to destabilize and undermine this country making it almost intolerable for its own citizens compared to what it was just two years ago/pre-911.
I never thought I'd see so many Americans talking sense! This is great!. THIS is why america is hated and feared - not because of any individuals, (OK one or two), but because of the runaway government. You know that the American defence budget is equivalent to the WHOLE OF THE REST OF THE WORLD combined? And it's being run by George Bush et al. That certainly frightens me. He wants to fight THREE major wars at once. Madman. So, go for it, get people to vote and get things on a more even keel - we're all behind you!
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
"The chickens come home to roost."
And of course, the Democrats put up such a vigorous fight to defend "our" democratic rights.
But don't worry, live in fear, and Big Uncle will take care of everything.
Not very bright, are you. This isn't a "blatant grab for power", it's incrementalism. So the Dems don't care (apart from some exceptions) because they intend to take advantage of these "improvements" when they get back into power. High time you realized that apart from minor differences over who gets what pork barrel, there is only one party in Washington DC, not two. It's the government party, and it is always in favor of increasing its own power and priviledges.
It has gotten to the point that patriotic citizens can not stand up with out fear of persecution, investigation and perhaps detention..
Even people like me that have been arguing most of our lives for our constitutional freedoms, are now fearful of what the government has become.. and are now hiding behind aliases, and anonymous forums... our of fear of the governments immoral reprisals.....
With out the confidence to speak, what value is 'free speech'...
But ill be there, when the revolution starts, to support America, not the government..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There have been recorded and documented misuse of the existing Patriot act. The most curious has been the now occassional use of "anti-terrorism" laws and provisions to prosecute common drug offenders. I am reminded that German facism also started with the prosecuting of the "unpopular" in society outside the scope of normal law.
I also remember that even in periods when normal constitutional protections still did exist intact in this country, they were major abuses by some. How soon we forget the bugging and domestic spying on Dr. King, or the Nixon plumbers engaged in domestic espionage against percieved political "enemies", in the press and elsewhere. Even under the existing Patriot act and certainly under these new extensions, these and other past outragous might well now be technically "legal".
The consitution exists in it's limited form to protect citizens from the potential danger of their own government, both as understood from direct experiance (of prior British rule), and of potential and percieved dangers and risks to liberty that were only guessed at at that time.
The framers of the contitution were generally pessimists, for they thought constitutionally protected freedoms would only last at most a few generations before there would be need to start over...but while perhaps wrong on time scale, on this, like so many other things, they may yet, unfortunately, be proven correct in time.
I have yet to figure out a way to pry the apathetic masses from their televisions long enough to get their attention. Anyone have any suggestions?
Have the goats.cx guy appear as a guest on the O'Reilly Factor?
echo 'Header append X-HD-DVD "0x09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0"' >>
Even if you assume that belief was still held by Lutherans in the Nazi era and specifically by this Pastor, that only makes the quote more poignant.
You must not only stand up for the freedom of those groups who you aren't a member of, you must also stand up for the freedom of those groups who you don't like.
The enemies of Democracy are
I for one welcome our FBI overlords!
There have been all these restrictions on the rights of US citizens-but all that has happened since 911 is the price of a smuggler taking folks from Mexico to the US has gone up from $500 to $1500. That doesn't strike me as a lot of increased security.
This all strikes me as a big scam.
Ah, it was more than a Iraqi army that had perished! Much had changed in him since that first day in the Department of Homeland Security, but the final, indispensable, healing change had never happened, until this moment.
The voice from the TV was still pouring forth its tale of prisoners and booty and slaughter, but the shouting outside had died down a little. The waiters were turning back to their work. One of them approached with the gin bottle. Winston, sitting in a blissful dream, paid no attention as his glass was filled up. He was not running or cheering any longer. He was back in the Department of Homeland Security, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The longhoped-for bullet was entering his brain.
He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the stern eyes. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Dubya.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
Forward Comrad-er... Fellow /.ers!!!!
People are too quick to forget that the reason that the current administration won was not that Bush won it was because there was a third party spoiler. If everyone that wants the power back in the hands of the people chooses not to vote for the mainstream option we will be stuck with this situation for another four years. A no vote does not help in the short run, which is where change needs to be made.
A change in parties is needed when the choices are beginning to stagnate. A change in position is needed when the elected officials are not representing your views.
Okay, so I vote out the guys that are there now, and vote in some new guys who I believe in. I think: "Problem solved. My vote counted!"
And then a piece of hideously draconian and unconstitutional legislation comes through, and the guy I voted for votes "Yea" while I sit here screaming "No, no, no!" Too late! I already voted him in, and now the evil legislation is law. I can punish the guy by voting him out four years later, but as I said -- too late!
This is exactly what happened in 2001, when the Patriot Act was passed into law with no debate and almost unanimous support.
So tell me: How do you feel about your vote in 2000? Feel like you made a difference? Feel like you're being represented?
And when you vote out the guy who failed you this time, who are you going to vote in, and what stops him from doing the exact same thing?
The enemies of Democracy are
Don't you just love newspeak....
I feel so sig.
Right. I've never seen a country in need of guns that cannot be found. Could you please give an example where this was the case? It is definately not the US of A.
:)
I think you are being paranoid. But that's ok, that's the state that the current USA government wants you to be in anyway
second, missles turn guns into blobs of steel, so what use is a gun if your facing the turret of a tank coming up your front lawn?
So, you do the same thing the VC did. Hide, wait for the tank crew to get out of the tank, and then kill them. Quite simple, and effective. Really, if there was a popular revolt in the US (and I mean more than some whack job malitia), it would be a meat grinder for both sides. Remeber, how do you tell a good loyal american from one who is pretending to be loyal, until he shoots you? You can't. If there is an armed revolt in America, it will be fought in a very similar manner as the Vietnam conflict. You will have a populous that doesn't really like the military that is trying to control it, who can hide in plain sight, and the more damage the military does to the enemy, and to infrasructure, the more people it turns against itself, and the more damage it does to its own infrastructure.
This is why the government having files on everyone is so dangerous. If open, armed, revolt ever becomes necessary, and the government has files that give it a pretty good clue about who the dissidents are going to be, the people lose the advantage of being able to hide in a crowd. The war would be over before it ever got started. Also, it will be advantagous for the revolutionaries, if there are plenty of weapons just lying about, and they don't have to storm a government base for them.
Sure, if it comes down to it, a revolt is going to kill lots of people; but let's not give up their greatest advantage before the war even starts.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
what the fuck is this supposed to mean: Stop yapping and act already?
when I last heard already fuckin' stood for something that has already happened.
and btw, hate you harvey
Yeah, well I don't know where you got your statistics buddy, but in Boone County we had an 850% turnout in the last election. That's right, everyone came out and voted 7 or 8 times a piece! So don't go telling us about consent!
All sarcasm aside, I really fail to see the point of voting. We have plenty of empirical evidence that the American political system is an absolute failure. Sending the guy in charge $1000 or more is much more likely to get results, no?
Besides, it takes a silver bullet to kill me. :-D
--- Ban humanity.
A big problem is that a large part of the American population has a black and white view. It is either white or black, it is either good or evil. In reality things happend in large number of grays. The catch is this is too subtle for people who are used to a binary approach. We need to encourage people to look amongst the grays and feel comfortable choosing from them. This is where many countries in Europe differ from the USA, since they have a large number of parties and people vote across the board, unless there is one thorny issue that really gets people's back against the wall.
There almost needs to a website put together that people can access that lists the stand points of the various political parties. That way people can have an unbiast view as to what each party is striving for. The site should also include the policatical history of laws that were brought in and what the voting position of each party was.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Sit back and bitch about the failings of the political process, and you will get the government you deserve. Actively participate in the political process and you might just get the government you want.
There have been all these restrictions on the rights of US citizens-but all that has happened since 911 is the price of a smuggler taking folks from Mexico to the US has gone up from $500 to $1500. That doesn't strike me as a lot of increased security.
Actually that is directly related to more secuirty. Basically (in theory at least) the risk for being a Coyote has decreased their numbers. So market dictates price. Less people offering a service tends to drive up the cost.
This is the same logic when dealing the drug war. The idea being, if the commodity or service avalibility is constrained, then the price will go up detering normally honest people from purchasing the commodity or service. Generally this is touted as a win.
What it actually means is that suddently a smaller number of people will make much more money per person they shuttle. Thus, just like with drugs, more money means more power. These folks will only get more violent to protect their very lucritive livelihood. My personal oppinion is the drug war is what turned vast sections of LA in to an utter wasteland.
This all strikes me as a big scam.
Sort of. The only justification for all of the types of restrictions of human rights and invasion of privacy, is the assumption that you cannot control the boarders. I personally have a great distain and distrust for this administration, mainly instead of attacking the problem of illegal or fraudulent immigration, they use smoke and mirrors to empower themselves at the expense of the public good.
Shameless self promotion : The Misadvetures of the in
48 states? only if they start counting counties as states....
Alright. US constitution says a well armed militia is necessary to prevent tyrany. Essentially, the founders wanted the people to have arms equal to the military so that revolution was possible. After all, that is what they had just done. They were not stupid. They were not hypocritical, at least not on this issue. When the weapons were scarsely more effective than bows and arrows it made sense.
Time passed. The machine gun was invented. So was the tank. Now we have satellite guided bombs accurate enough to hit a small building which can be fired from hundreds of miles away. We have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. At some point we realize that even if you have the money to buy it, you just don't have the right to, say, a nuclear bomb.
Yes, this is basically a flagrant violation of the second ammendment - because if our government becomes a tyrany and we try armed resistance, we will loose. We will not have weapons we could have attained if the laws had allowed it.
But just consider the alternative.
a war on terrorism? How can we end a war on a method?
Just remember, if you stop spending money like sheep, the terrorists win, but if you give up your freedoms in exchange for "security" they dont.
If things really go awry, ministers will "cross the floor", i.e. literally stand up and walk over to the opposition benches and merrily start voting the opposition line. That is, they simply switch parties.
Imagine a Republican marching over and saying "F*ck you, Mr Prez, I'm a Democrat now".
Furthermore, while the US President has veto power, the PM has none. He's really nothing more than an "extra special" minister.
career civil servants gov employees
they have all the power because they can't be fired
These authoritarian whimps who currently hold power over the most powerful nation in the world still need more ways to lose accountability from each other. When most of the baby boomers were growing up they got this freedom by saying if we don't we will die (through a nuclear holocost). The evil bureacratic powers that be eventually discovered that they didn't even have to give a good reason. Problem is all of the old farts still remembering how much worse it was to maybe die at any second don't care about just losing their freedoms any second. Lesser of two evils. Cool thing is that the children of this generation grew up in a world of peace and sharing (as seen on TV) which eventually will make us throw out these bureacrats (and their terrified voting base) because they don't have a good reason to pull the sheets over our eyes. I just hope this generation doesn't make it to hard to fix it down the road (see situation with constitution and slavery).
Open Source Sushi
Now, even if you controlled illegal immigration(say cameras on the borders and at sea) you'd still have a big issue with stuff like Visa overstays. That could be handled rather simply bying requiring visa holders and their sponsors to post substantial bonds upon entry(that would be refundable on exit). The bonding requirements could be immediately active on all existing visa holders or those that had overstayed their visas.
There would still be some folks inclined to terrorism that would jump through all the hoops, but a few simple measures would raise the bar considerably-and Congress and the president are so addicted to the present state of affairs they simply can't act in a way that reflects popular will.
Whenever I see a mention of automated keyword matching like this, I wonder what such a system would think of gamers discussing Counterstrike or TFC.
"... yeah, they got the hostages back; we managed to plant the bomb in the missile silo though. One of the SAS guys tried to defuse it, but I shot him with my AK-47, so the terrorists won."
"OK, next game we need to kill the President..."
2 people are a conspiracy.
3+ people is a riot.
They can get you if they wan't...
Q.
Insert Signature Here
I can't WAIT to see what the /.sheeple brigade say about this!
No karma bonus on this comment.
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Had a friend that was a peace officer in Tasmania, to this day I can here him say the words "And you call this the 'Land of the Free'?" followed by a long tirade about how few civil liberties we americans had.
This was 8 years ago.
Still stings
Sera
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
Ever since Patriot Act I, I've been using only cash and refuse to give my personal information to anyone who requests it. If a store insists, I take my business elsewhere.
I also turned in my library card, figuring if it's that interesting a read, I can just sit at the library and read it.
Grocery cards? Gone...
Car goes to independent shops who don't report to ChoicePoint, or I do the work myself.
Rebates? Fuh-getta-bout-it.
I more or less fell of the face of the earth when it comes to spending money. The government knows I have a job, and that I make my rent, car, and utility payments on time. They have no fscking clue how I spend my money otherwise.
The only thing I did notice about Patriot I that was different was the explosion in popularity of the Black Ford Crown Victoria. I see them behind me all the time!
This has been moderated 5, Funny.
I think we need a +1, Scary moderation. It would be more appropriate here.
Because all you have to do is recruit non-Arabs. Can you say John Walker Lindh? What about Richard Reid? Can you honestly say that those are the only ones? If we concentrate our entire anti-terrorism on Arabs, then we are really making ourselves vulnerable.
Hyperic Community Manager
You forget that the powerful US Army is composed of many many people just like all of us civilians. True, they do have a significant degree of loyalty, but if enough people revolt (and for what seem to be good reasons), I would think a good amount of the Army would as well.
If you are in a public place, you can be videotaped by anyone, as you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. If someone wants to videotape police actions but are worried about a tape being confiscated, they should have the VCR seperate from the camera, connected wirelessly. Then they would still have the tape, showing the camera being smashed. News reporters would eat that up.
Welcome To the Peoples Republic of the United States or should we just call it China 2?
Since it took me more than a few minutes to find the part of the bill everyone's excited about, here's a pointer:
In the Conference Report, the change to the definition of financial institution is in Title III, Subtitle E (Sec. 374), which begins on page 76 of the PDF. The explanatory statement for that Section begins on page 112 of the PDF.
The Section in question is really just a reference to another Section of United States Code. On top of that, the PDF of this report is not searchable (it's a scanned image). Do we have an award for Information Obfuscation in Government? Why can't we at least have these reports in hypertext, with live links to the referenced laws?
No shit - life's scary, nothing's perfect, get over it.
Do you honestly prefer a dictator to "keep you safe" over free thought and free choice?
"After Sept. 11th I bet a true democracy would have passed some laws that treated Muslims pretty poorly."
I sincerely hope not, but you know your own prejudices better than I.
Democracy as a concept does not scale well beyond the tribal level (where there is intimate personal knowledge and accountability), but human nature scales to infinty and beyond. Until I get a better option, democracy it is.
Q.
Insert Signature Here
Sun Tzu:
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
Never ascribe to evil that which can just as easily be mere incompetence. (or something similar).
I think both parties are stupid. True evil actually requires a degree of intelligence, which I certainly haven't seen from either party.
I think you should spend a lot more time at OpenSecrets.org and note the expert proficency when it comes to handling the legislative detail of thier contributors.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
That's right, Oprah.
She would win, by a landslide, and reverse all the EVILNESS that has been foisted upon us shrouded in patriotist clothing.
Go to her site and email her now!!!!!
Burgess voted YES for this damned thing.
How does one try to get a recall on a Rep- this one just pretty much broke his Oath of Office by passing this one.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The Republicans are now the liberals, wanting to change every damned law in a way that contradicts their original purpose so they can micromanage people's lives. The democrats are now the conservatives fighting to keep the laws as they were intended.
i ng-a-New-American-Empire-that-the-sun-never-sets-o n difference.
I don't think this is really a liberal/conservative difference, more like a regular-person/fascist-totalitarian-bent-on-creat
There are plenty of people with good points on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide. Unfortunately, the Plan for a New American Century has wormed its members into so many key positions that it doesn't matter anymore.
What people need to realize is that voting for Bush isn't voting Republican, except in name. There won't be a real Republican candidate next year, only a Neo-Conservative one.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
Frankly, the only thing more disturbing than the current situation with unchecked government power is that someone (maybe most everyone) needs a self-proclaimed prophet from the future to tell them they should be worried.
Isn't this why children are taught history?
...to say I live in Kansas. 3 of the 4 representatives from Kansas voted for this bill. My vote will never be represented in this damned state. I should seriously consider moving. It's time to renew my ACLU membership again I see.
Or perhaps we should just disallow 'donations' to political offices.
How far do you want to go with this? And are you imagining the probable unintended consequences while you make that decision?
You could disallow donations to political offices, but continue to allow people and groups to advertise for politicians they approve of, in which case the current practice of "people give money to candidate or party, which buys political advertising with it" will just get replaced with "people buy political advertising directly". Washington will still be ruled by money, but now it'll be exclusively money from large contributors who can afford commercial time, instead of individual contributors.
You could also disallow whatever you define as "political advertising" entirely, in which case (aside from the obvious First Amendment problems) people's opinions will be influenced by "the news" instead, and the segment of money which rules Washington will be restricted further: to those corporations large enough to own news outlets and slant the reporting they provide.
It's not as if your Senators are whoring for campaign contributions to pay for their new mansion or yacht; those campaign contributions pay for the propaganda that gets fed to voters before election day and keeps the best funded candidates in office. Any attempt to limit that propaganda will just end up as a limit on free speech. If you want to reduce the influence of money on politics, the only way to do so is with an informed electorate who will be less susceptible to expensive advertising when deciding who to vote for. What's worse, producing an informed electorate will have to happen from the ground up. You won't find any easy "campaign finance reform" answers: try and anticipate the unintended consequences of "matching funds" type ideas (hint: most involve increased barriers to entry for independent and third party candidates), for example, and you'll see why.
You seem to be under the impression that the VC were a significant force in the conflict in Vietnam. This is patently untrue. After the Tet Offensive of 1968, they were pretty much all dead, and the rest of the war was exclusively stand-up fights with the NVA and, we now know, air support from the USSR.
I just wish that some of the gun nuts (and all of the anti-gun nuts, BTW) would take the trouble to read a little more history than they find convenient for supporting their arguments.
Re: armed revolt, don't Fukien bet on it, as they say in China. It takes a fanatical mindset to do any such thing in the face of the kind of tools that are brought to bear on it these days.
What part of "A well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Communism and totalarianism wont use bombs or missles or guns to take over, they infiltrate, brainwash and climb to political power, they use society and politics as their weapons.
and sadly, it's beginning to look this way.
anyone know of any private islands or atolls for sale?
I guess we'll shortly be finding out if all those rumors were true about concentration camps being built on military bases. You know, the rumors the fringe right have been worried about for years.
Remember kids, the time to fight is BEFORE you're in the cattlecars, because then it's too late.
I have spent all my life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either.
-Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Perhaps a first step might be to disallow contributions by corporations to candidates.
Individuals could still donate their own take home pay if they chose to (but "I was hoping that the other members of the board would donate *their* personal funds to our boy, who supports the "Screw Everybody Act", so I would not have to", which is the intended effect).
Then, you go after Unions and other non-profits making donations as well.
You want to donate, you do it our of YOUR OWN take home pay, not by appropriating money from a group (shareholders, employees, union members).
That might help some.
Yow! I'm supposed to have a plan?
But apparently the Bush Administration is looking for new recruits for the Draft Board. They haven't said when the Homeland Security Patriotic Anti-Terrorist Force starts. Yet.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It is giving away too much power, and liberties in so many ways. And it ia"funny" how the mass media isn't reporting this as powerfully as other beliefs by are current administration. And how much money can we spend on this "new" act? The Patriots Act and any revisions is just scary.
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend... That _was_ the patriotic pin you were talking about, wasn't it?
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I've noticed, over the past few months, a trend on many of the relatively moderate online boards I read (Slashdot, Fark, etc.) towards speculation of a coming US Civil War or major uprising. It started with a post every few threads from someone lightly suggesting it as a duly remote scenario. However, in the last week or so, I've noticed several passing suggestions of such a possibilty per political thread, and even one or two outright predictions and advocations. Now, as a half-assed internet armchair sociologist, I'm wondering if this is just the developement of yet another internet meme, like so many before, or an independantly developing conclusion that might be symtomatic of the awakening of a greater public realization. And, even if it is just a silly Slashdot-Fark meme, such things have migrated into general public consciousness, in the past. I think that in the coming months and years, this idea might just creep into the mainstream, a zeitgeist of the mid-2000s. An ghost, barely evident in subtle overtones in the media, at first, and coming more out into the open as people gradually identify the shadow of a doubt that had been growing inside them, and subconsciously become more and more accepting of the idea as a real possibility. Of course, I could just be JonKatzing out my ass, here, but I can see the process occurring now, in the spawning and proving grounds of modern greater cultural memes, the internet.
But the Titor story is particularly weak.
If you're going to handle tough realities by fleeing into fantasy, at least pick a decent author and have the guts to face the real world again when it's done.
The current problem is not going away by itself, nor is any "time traveller" there to save us or show the way, this is just a reenactment of the Christian Jesus story.
The USA is owned by the oligarchs, just like Russia is. The rich men own the government, the courts, the military, the banks, the media, and the economy. There is not going to be any dramatic world war, just a series of revolutions by the have-nots, and a series of bloody repressions by the haves.
The Bush administration is actually simply a good old facist dictatorship under democratic cover. One more election victory (and yes, you can expect a dramatic and well-timed terrorist attack to keep the patriotic fever going), and we will be into twenty-five years of hell.
And this time there will be no US of A to come and save the world.
Human nature, it gets us every time.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
If I'm getting this right, the bill is H.R.2417 and the text of it can be found here along with the ammendments. And even though the Senate disguised who passed it with a voice vote, the House did it the transparently democratic way and the vote broken down beyond yeas and nays into partys and names can be found here.
where'd my typewriter go?
I beg to differ. There are some known Patriot Act abuses. An earlier slashdot article pointed to some, in fact. I've blogged about PATRIOT's effects on on-line education, libraries, Boston legislators, and Oregon police officers. Finally, PATRIOT has turned pipe bombs into weapons of mass destruction and speed into a chemical weapon.
[
Roe V. Wade.
It did not establish a constitutionally protected right to have an abortion. It found that some anti-abortion laws violate a woman's constitutionally protected right to privacy.
Now, if it can be unconstitutional to enforce an anti-abortion law because it violates someone's right to privacy, HOW IN THE FUCK can it be constitutional for law enforcement to spy on people who are not breaking any law?
But our government is no stranger to contradiction. For example, Marijuana is a schedule 1 drug, meaning that it has "no medicinal purpose", but they provide some terminally ill people with it. Heroin is also schedule 1, but in the UK Diamorphine (heroin) is perfectly legal and used as a pain reliever for people in extreme pain.
What's wrong with the world when a right wing republican, like myself, is arguing against providing law enforcement with more power and against the insanity of US drug policy?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
This was sent to my various representatives.... Write physical letters and let them know this is not acceptable. I'm about as fed up with this crap as I can be.
Hon. Jim Talent:
I was outraged today to read reports stating that several of the most controversial provisions of the Patriot II bill had been passed despite the negative public debate surrounding the original bill. These provisions include: Expanding the definition of financial institutions to include a wide range of commercial and retail transactions. Another item is the elimination of Congressional reporting on intelligence and antidrug effectiveness. A third measure being the elimination of Congressional reporting of how often National Security Letters (NSLs) are used. By quietly passing these provisions within a spending bill for the Justice Department, It seems to have been moved through Congress in a manor that attempts to minimize public exposure and debate.
I cannot express the level of disappointment that I feel in this matter. The cunning manor these provisions were passed in chills my faith in this governments ability to reflect the will of its sovereign, the people. I am tired of reading the news and finding yet another public figure claiming that more of my rights must be set aside to fight terrorism. What returns have we seen from all that has been "given" so far? Yet we are asked, nay told, to give up more. We are given only empty assurances that these provisions will only be used on those who are evil; the innocent have nothing to fear from warrantless searches. So little have we to fear in fact that congress will not even require them to report on how often they use these powers.
There seems to be a fundamental shift in the way our government operates today -- the notion that the government "grants" us rights that can be suspended when it so desires seems to be prevalent. This is However, a careful study of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution reveals the intent of our founders that rights are granted by virtue of being human and can only be denied under very limited circumstances. I believe that with erosions such as these Patriot provisions those circumstances are no longer limited, and the line that divided us from the nations that we feared and ridiculed for their lack of human rights only decades ago is vanishing.
The current administration and much of my party (Republicans) seem to be unable to represent my interests any longer. In this case they can't even seem to bow to the collective will of this country. The message being sent to the public is clear: If the public dissent grows too loud, then table controversial legislation and pass it's provisions later in secret. This behavior does not inspire confidence in the political process. This President and his administration have lost my vote, and It can not be brought back. I cannot support an administration that treats our rights as an impediment to be overcome. Additionally, any of my representatives who supported this method of passing these provisions have lost my vote as well. I will be working to educate all that I know that this was done and who was responsible.
I hope this nation's leadership can turn this ship around. When I look at this country today and consider all the freedoms that have vanished since I was young; it does not make me proud. In fact, it saddens and angers me greatly. I would hope it does you as well.
If I had mod points, you'd get one.
The problem with the US today is that there is no longer accountability. Checks and balances are being swept aside to make it easier for government to do whatever the hell they like, in the name of stopping terrorism.
What people too easily forget is that checks and balances exist FOR A REASON.
I'm currently in the process of drafting a political party constitution for a party I've started (www.neteffect.org.au, you can download the draft if you wish) and I can tell you my overriding concern is to have enough checks and balances built in to make it nigh on impossible to contravene the constitution and get away with it.
What the US (and probably many others) needs is laws enacted that provide MORE checks and balances, and common sense laws such as the example you give of making sure you can't sneak in a non-secret law as a rider to a secret budget bill.
Quizo69
Visceral Psyche Films
Democracy is a scary thing and our founders knew that -- the tyranny of the majority and all.
I do not find your comments insightful in the least
What the Founding Fathers of the American Republic "knew" was that direct democracy was a threat to the largely inherited wealth and power of the American aristocracy that existed at that time, a largely landed aristocracy in both North and South.
That threat was somewhat realized with the advent of the Jackson presidency. Jacksonian Democracy, the first truly populist political movement of the new American polity, was such a threat to entrenched interests that the Congress wouldn't even let President Jackson select his own cabinet. No problem. He met with his "kitchen cabinet" and let the people with the job titles have fancy offices -- and no responsibilities.
The reason why America has so-called "representative democracy", the electoral college, and many other restraints on popular rule is that those with wealth and power in late 18th-century American intended to keep it. At a time when the franchise was under local control and largely limited to white male property owners, when voting was carried out under circumstances that allowed wealthy local patrons to control the votes of their poorer and dependent neighbors, and those who voted were largely of the same view as though who had designed the system, the American Constitution was framed as a tool for unifying the American polity and controlling popular dissent for the greater commercial benefit of a few wealthy people
No, i'm not going to review the conflicts of the first quarter-century of the American Republic. No, I'm not some neo-Marxist left-wing revisionist trying to write a "people's history". I am in fact a political conservative who knows his history and has no illusions about how we got from A to B in this country.
Understand this. To argue using the term "tyranny of the majority" misunderstands the history of political power. It is merely a variation on the argument that the body of the people are incompentent because among the voting population are incompetent people. This is an argument against democracy of any kind. It is also an argument against the jury system, transparency in government, and open processes. It rests on the false assumption that there is a minority among us that is more competent that the rest of us to determine what is or is not, what will be or will not be, and to tell the rest of us the result.
It also rests on the false belief that liberty is best protected by a conscientious political elite rather than by the body of the people. This is, for a nation supposedly dedicated to the "Rule of Law" a rather shocking idea, for it is nothing more than the same idea that motivated the "mother/father" officials of Imperial China, who operated on the assumption that the law was less important than those who enforced it. It is the Rule of Men returning to us in new clothes, or if you prefer, the Rule of Man over Men.
The American Bill of Rights was demanded by the people, not by the Framers. It was the price of the new Constitution that the political elites were determined to impose in lieu of the supposedly broken Articles of Confederation.
Don't depend on the Congress, our institution of "representative democracy" to defend our liberties. They have shown no interest in doing so. Neither has the President. And the unelected Supreme Court, aside from asserting a power of review not stated in the Constitution at all, has shown itself to be at best an unready and qualified defender of American liberties.
Ironically, the defense of liberty ultimately falls to the people, the "incompetent, untrustworthy, tyrannous" majority of Americans. Like elsewhere, if there is no dedication to liberty among the people, there will be none anywhere. I fear the "tyranny of money" that has grown since the Constitution was adopted in this country, far far more than I fear any "tyranny of the majori
Bush passes laws that make it LEGAL for them to do such things with no consequences, nor any oversight what so ever.
If they claim "duhhh, well I thought he was being terror-ror-ristic" the government pats them on the back and says "good job, run along now"
If a police officer does that, he should be subject to investigation and possible action, such as a refresher in our constitutional rights.
Stewey
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
With Dubya re-opening research on low-yeild anti-personell nukes, I would say that a "tank" is unlikely.
More like a long range, GPS guided cruise missle.
Try to shoot that with a handgun.
Stewey
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
There have been ZERO reports of civil liberties violations. Now move along. There is nothing to see HERE.
(Score:-1, Offtopic)? It looks like your theory is right.
Generally, rising anger is the result of a lack of reason.
Lacking the reasonable backing to support your argument, you resort to name calling.
If you were a representative of the "US of A" then I would move tomorrow.
Thankfully, people like you aren't that common.
Stewey
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
To rephrase Chris Rock in context of privacy and our pursuit toward the place called "There" :
Privacy Act of 1974 - 10 steps forward
Carnivore - 2 steps back
USA Patriot Act II - 7 steps back
THIS - 2 steps back
But who's counting?
-vince-ICS student UCI-
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
There's a disparity between our economic philosophy and our governmental philosophy. Our economy is rife with inequalities, while our notion of "democracy" speaks of equality.
While people have different amounts of money and money equates to governmental power, we can't have a truly equal society in terms of governmental representation.
Although, technically, we're a democratic republic federation, with fancy electoral colleges and the like, rather than a straight up democracy.
"You can't fight what you can't see."
Stop and think about that quote for a minute. How does that apply to the current "war" on terrorism?
Now, if you really believe there's some worldwide network of super-terrorists (Al Qaeda, emminently led by Emmanuel Goldstein aka Osama bin Laden) then how do you expect the US government to defeat them? After all, they've already said they don't necessarily need to capture or kill Osama to win. Seems a little odd doesn't it?
Reminds me more and more of the eternal war as portrayed in George Orwell's "1984". In this case, it's Americans who seem willing to put up with ever increasing government oversight in exchange for the illusion that they're "winning" this "war".
It's amusing and simultaneously a little eerie to see more and more references to the John Titor story popping up when articles on government powers are published. Whether you believe the Titor story is irrelevant - the fact remains that fiction or not, it, like "1984", gives a vision of what may transpire should we do nothing and carry on down the path we are currently on.
Being an Australian, I was never in favour of wide gun ownership in the US, believing it to be the equivalent of sitting on a tinderbox. Now, however, I am beginning to understand the REASON the right to bear arms was put in the US Constitution. Scary to think that one day you may need to rise up against your own government through violent means. Let's just hope and work towards a revolution such as that recently carried out in Georgia - a bloodless one.
Visceral Psyche Films
Damn, I'm sure glad so many of the posts on Slashdot are labelled "funny" at the top. It really helps, I always had trouble with what's 'funny'.
Ah these computers, changing everything aren't they?
They don't/won't have to hold 250 million of you back. All they need to do is get a large proportion of those people to not care.
To spend most of their days zonked on anti-depressants.
To work such long hours they are too tired to care.
To have the main aims in their life being to spend money on various things and think that directly equates with life quality.
To be uneducated and not understand the political process, and therefore not care.
To be unenlightened, and not care.
To believe entirely in the major media outlets, all controlled by the same small group.
Problem is this kinda talk gets discounted as conspiracy theory and cannot be proven until its too late.
This is funny. -1 Flamebait? Just goes to show, don't agree with the right, they will try and bring you down. They must not have read the moderators guide. They're supposed to concentrate on modding up, not down.
how do you propose to get her out once the inevitable happens?
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
In 1971 Pete Townsend came up with these lyrics (copyright the The Who, Pete Townsend and their assignees) and they are right on point with the state of the state East & West.
Who, The
Who's Next (1971)
Won't Get Fooled Again
We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!
I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?
There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
Al Gore lost because he ran a poor campaign, he failed to consolidate his base and even lost his own home state. Had he done any one of those three things properly, he would be President right now. Nader had nothing to do with it, Al Gore did it all by himself.
"You don't need a weatherman/ To know which way the wind blows" -Bob Dylan: Subterranean Homesick Blues
You heathen libburils shall burn in hell for opposing John Ashcroft! Patriot Legislation keeps you safe and punishes the wicked infidel! For it is written, "In the end times, the Great Elephant shall crush the pinko libburils."
This is terrible. Will this assault on our Constitutional rights ever end? Imagine if Clinton had these powers on his hands. This is not necessary for terrorism at all, and is an infringement of our Constitutional rights.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
? Benjamin Franklin
people video tape the police all the time. http://www.copwatch.com/
A nation gets the govournement it deserves. Americans decided to get all paranoid afther 9/11. Americans decided to go past nato and ivade Iraq.
Imagine the megaphone voice : "America is under matrial law, all civil liberties are suspended untill further notice".
Americans do it to themself, everybody said, bush is a wimp. Now he's proving he isn't one.
I guess a lot of americans are willing to give up their privacy, for the *illusion* of safety.
Coz' that's what it is, an illusion.
--> Insert Funny Sig Here
now you're equating peaceful protestors to organized crime!?!?!? in your view, is everyone who knowingly breaks the law a terrorist and / or a mobster? "better slow down there, little monkey"
Nope. Those of you who don't go to the polls are absolutely 100% giving your implicit consent to the winners. They are completely utterly happy to let you be a sheep. If you don't like the big two, or even the next few guys, you can always write in. Vote for your mother, or your boss, or yourself.
- - - Rushone fine point is a matter of degree, as in, how severely are they "breaking the law" and affecting others? a terrorist severly does this by killing others, a mobster does this also. i would hestitate to lump people who form human chains into these categories.
your blanket categorizations show that you view the world in black and white. if this is acceptable to you, i guess we don't have any more to talk about.
If John Walker Lindh is a traitor for supporting the Taliban then George Bush Jr is a traitor as well. While he didn't go there to aid them, chickhawk that he is, he gave the Taliban millions of taxpayer's dollar to them at the same tyme Lindh was there.
Should there be a Law?
Jury's message to feds in $4.4 million verdict for Judi Bari and Darryl Cherney
(revised 6/19/02)
On June 11, a federal jury returned a stunning verdict in favor of Judi Bari and Darryl Cherney in their landmark civil rights lawsuit against four FBI agents and three Oakland Police officers.
The jury clearly found that six of the seven FBI and OPD defendants framed Judi and Darryl in an effort to crush Earth First! and chill participation in Redwood Summer. That was evident in the fact that 80% of the $4.4 million total damage award was for violation of their First Amendment rights to speak out and organize politically in defense of the forests.
"The jury exonerated us," said Darryl Cherney. "They found the FBI to be the ones in violation of the law. The American public needs to understand that the FBI can't be trusted. Ten jurors got a good, hard look at the FBI and they didn't like what they saw."
"It's really beyond our wildest dreams," said Darlene Comingore, Judi Bari's friend and executor of her estate who stood in for her as co-plaintiff in this suit. "We hope the FBI and Oakland and all the police forces out there that think they can violate people's rights and get away with it are listening because the people of the state of California and Oakland today said, 'No, you can't. You can't get away with it.' "
Lead attorney Dennis Cunningham said the message he hopes the verdict sends is that: "Ashcroft is doing precisely the wrong thing to abandon the (Levi) guidelines and let the FBI go after dissent with a free hand. It's clear that their intention is not about fighting terrorism, it's about suppressing dissent. That's what the FBI has always been about. Hopefully it will make Congress think twice about giving them a free hand."
Please click here to continue reading this article, with more interpretation of the meaning and importance of the verdict by the media as well as by individual participants and observers, including one of the jurors.
The Judi Bari WebsiteToo bad she died before she ever saw justice.
Should there be a Law?
that most of the people here crying about the government taking their rights away also support a ban on all firearms in the US therefore negating there ability to rise up against said government.
Unfortunately this is all too true.
Should there be a Law?
"Soylent Green"
Should there be a Law?
I agree on Ann Coulter's motivation. Actually she doesn't use much reasoning, her conservative bias dominates her mindset. For one she keeps saying how liberals nowa days just uses name calling tactics and lies about conservatives yet she does the same to liberals.
As far as John Walker Lindh is concerned, I don't personally consider him a traitor at all, misguided perhaps but not a traitor. He accepted the plea agreement offered as if he had pled innocent and lost, which would of been very likely under the then current climate, his sentence would of been much worse.
Oh, don't think I'm saying this as a liberal, I'm not. Politically I'm a libertarian.
Should there be a Law?
I don't have to assume, actually - it's pretty easy to discover that those beliefs were held by most Lutherans of the time, and not only in Germany but also in the US and UK.
Niemoller was, at one point, supportive of the Nazis; but he not only came to realize their racism was harmful to society but actually did something about it.
It's really worth reading about all this. We all live in the shadow of WW2 - organizations like Al Quaeda and Likud are the direct result of the global anti-semitism of the 1930s and 40s.
Niemoller was, at one point, supportive of the Nazis; but he not only came to realize their racism was harmful to society but actually did something about it.
I hadn't realized. Pretty inspiring, if you ask me.
It's really worth reading about all this.
Sure is. Thanks for the link.
The enemies of Democracy are
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Why don't people understand that "taking back tax cuts" is the same thing as "I'm going to tax you more"?
Why don't people understand that "cutting taxes" means "the government has less money to do what it needs?"
Far too many people seem to believe, as the Republicans would have us do, that taxes exist in a void, and all they do is take money away from people. But taxes are NECESSARY to run a government!
The question of what kind of programs you think should be funded is a separate one: I like the idea of lots of socialist-type programs to help people; you might not, you might prefer agricultural subsidies or defense spending. But that's somewhat separate from the issue of taxes, and politicians don't talk about cutting social programs, they talk about cutting taxes. But every dollar that is lost to tax cuts has to be made up somehow, whether by increasing income from some other source or by decreasing spending.
Now, before you accuse me of such, let me say that I am not categorically against tax cuts. I think that tax cuts for the lower income brackets are a great idea: a moderate percentage tax cut will cost the government relatively little. But at the same time, it would make sense to raise taxes on the richest income brackets, where a very small percentage increase would give significant extra money.
But no, cry the Republicans, the rich can't afford higher taxes! We have to lower their taxes as much as we can! Because, of course, they won't just reinvest that money the same as they're doing with the rest; they'll spend it, and stimulate the economy! Poor people wouldn't spend more money if you gave it to them, they wouldn't stimulate the economy!
If it sounds like I'm a little bitter about this, yeah, I am. A president I certainly didn't vote for has put the country more deeply into debt than it has ever been before with a financial policy I find deeply flawed. If this were happening to you, wouldn't you feel bitter?
Have a nice day, Conservative.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
We're talking about an administration that's asserted its right to lock American citizens up without due process and keep them imprisoned indefinitely with no charges and no representation. 'Cause, you know, they're the bad guys.
Even Ashcroft's dismissing those concerned librarians was astonishingly arrogant and did everything possible to irritate me. No, you don't care about what I'm reading... except you do care, enough to give yourself the ability to look at it without a warrant on the grounds of national security, right? The disdain for the concerns of a bunch of librarians -- who, you know, do kind of give a crap about intellectual freedoms -- couldn't speak more clearly about where this guy is coming from. When librarians care more about the Bill of Rights than the U.S. Attorney General, what does that say to you?
Add to that the more superficially nuts sides of Ashcroft -- having himself "anointed" by Clarence Thomas when he took office, writing and performing his own patriotic songs (and twisting his staff's arms to sing along at his morning meetings), covering the breast of the statue of justice because he didn't like it over his shoulder at press conferences.... I fundamentally do not trust this guy to do the measured, moderate thing by his country. He believes he's on a sort of Christian crusade in government, and I'm not at all confident he'd put the constitution above that end.
So no, this is not a person or an administration whom I "have to have some faith" in. I'd have been much more inclined to allow a moderate administration -- someone like Eisenhower, say -- this sort of encroachment on our rights. Even then it's the wrong path to go down, and it should cause serious introspection on our part to see our government going there.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
And just how exactly would they be able to record the camera being smashed?
You know, he was originally charged with 10 things, but they had such incredibly weak evidence that they had to drop most of them. I think they threatened to make him an enemy combatant and lock him up in Camp X-Ray. That's why he pled guilty to a Clinton-era law.
Still, 20 years was a bit harsh for someone who got caught in Afghanistan with bad timing.
That's quite the Straw man arguement. I don't see how the two can be related, and I have not heard a single person make that claim. Quite the opposite actually. Terry Nichol's brother wanted unrestricted amounts of weapons "in case the government turns tyrranical"