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US Expands Fingerprint and Mugshot Program for Visitors
prakslash writes "The US State Department has expanded its anti-terrorist fingerprinting program to include visitors from close US allies such as the UK, Australia, France, Germany and Japan. Everytime a visitor enters or leaves the US, they will have to get their mugshot and fingerprints taken - something that used to be mainly limited to your local police precinct. More news can be found here and here. In addition to the huge costs involved, one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country." Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
Bah, don't worry, It's only the foreigners who are having civil liberties violated. But they're not citizens, so it doesn't matter, right?
I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood
freedom or safety? Why are we so willing to comprimise our rights? Where does it stop?
Just some questions...
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
No, that isn't it at all. How can we expect this to stay as a free country if we show ourselves as so closed to the rest of the world? (let alone ourselves)
http://mediagoblin.org/
- If somebody is going to commit something illegal, he'll probably enter the country illegally. Probably through the porous mexican border or the huge coastline that the US has.
- Secondly, this is downright disrespectful. Detractors will argue that it's for the safety of the US. Well, I really don't see how it'll help. Once the dude is in the country, and has committed the offence, this sort of system is absolutely worthless. Effort should be put into preventing these sort of tragedies. Efforts like putting more effort into the Israel Palestine crisis, managing Iraq more effectively, stop being so patriachal and showing more respect to the citizens of the world.
I for one, will be taking my tourist dollars elsewhere. Where the authorities respect me. Where I'm not treated like a criminal and people realise that not everybody is out to get them.But he's not even _your_ big brother.
Maybe they could offer the tourists a copy of the photo in a lovely decorated cardboard frame as a memento of their trip.
Is this a late submission? Great way to make enemies of allies.
Okay, a silly example but how far from the truth is it? I just don't think these measures do much at all to prevent acts of terror.
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
As a taxpaying citizen, I am appalled by this move. It is my dollar that is paying for this system, and each day it seems more and more that I am distanced from control over how my country works. Was this how the Framers intended our country to be?
My girlfriend is Japanese. She went back to Japan recently for her brother's wedding, and upon her return she had to go through this procedure. She has a green card. It saddens and sickens me what this country does in the name of preventing terrorism.
Ads? What ads?
I like the Brazilian response where they fingerprinted and photographed all visiting US citizens. The Americans apparently didn't like that...should be good all of them visitng Europe are made to do the same. Maybe it will make them feel about as welcome as us Europeans will feel in the US if they implement it. Mind you it will probably solve their security problem - by the time they have finished nobody will want to go to the US!
You know, they do all this to supposedly prevent terrorism, yet, the US has thousands of miles of unguarded and unwatched borders. I can go to any odd border lake or river in Canada with a canoe and paddle right over with a backpack full of anthrax and no one would know. These measures are useless. If someone with half a brain wants to get in to the US and kill a lot of people, guess what? They'll do it. They don't need to take a plane there.
But seriously, what about immigrants? One more way to marginalize that group. They already face language and cultural barriers, stereotypes, and a host of other problems... now they'll be printed, even if they become citizens later.
When the government starts printing people who have committed no crime and may later be citizens, it's clear that we're on the very edge of having full prints taken for something like a marriage license, then for a driver's license, and then at birth.
Even if our government doesn't start printing us for these things, there will be reciprocal arrangements with other countries. Cross any national border into a developed country, get printed, have that shared worldwide.
We already do have footprints taken at birth, so remember not to walk barefoot around the house of your murder victims.
this is something that should have been done long ago
and how would you feel going to a foreign country and being treated like its criminals?
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
I look forward to seeing American backpackers have to stop 15 times for photo and fingerprints at every European border.
btw, I sure hope the state isn't going to pay for all this - I suggest a 20 Euro administration fee per stop.
The US State Department has expanded its anti-terrorist fingerprinting program to include visitors from close US allies such as the UK, Australia, France, Germany and Japan
I am slighted, shocked and appalled that Canada was not included in this list.
Goddam Americans.
The first question I have is: just what does the US think this will achieve? And the second question: how does it think this will achieve it?
Is it to stop terrorists entering the country? Sorry. No such luck. If Individual A joins a terrorist group, but keeps his head low, he won't be on any of the lists. If he's careful, there'll be no way to say that he is a terrorist, even though he is. Would this system have caught the Unabomber, for example?
Or criminals? Same story.
All this system will do is catch those who have been stupid enough to be caught before... if that. It's a dubious step, of dubious usefulness; the potentials for abuse of this information are sufficient that I, for one, will not be visiting the US in the future (unless they drop this requirement). The UK? Maybe. Africa? Possibly. Maybe even Jamaica (via Britain, rather than the US, as I'd have to get a transit visa to go through the US...)
I would suggest that the US can kiss a reasonable proportion of their current tourist dollars goodbye.
I was about to mod you Funny, but then reread the post and probably it wasn't your intention isn't it?
"I think this line is mostly filler"
Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
Haven't you ever heard of a driver's license?
Granted, the fingerprints are another issue altogether.
Tourist: Ah! America! I'm here at last! This is great!
...Exactly.
Customs official: Ah. Welcome to the United States, terrorist--I mean, guest. Yeah. Guest.
Tourist: Why, hello there! This is my first time visiting America, and I must say that--
Customs official: Please be quiet. I need to take your photograph then get your fingerprints. This is essential. It is a matter of national security. You must comply or you'll be on the next plane back to whatever country you came from.
Tourist: What? My photograph? My fingerprints? I'm not a terrorist! I'm just a tourist! I'm just here to take in the sights and see what it's like in yank-land!
Customs official: I'm sorry, you're going to have to comply if you want entry into the United States of America. We are not going to use this information we've gathered about you for any nefarious purpose, anyway.
Tourist: You're not? Then why are you collecting it?
Customs official: That's classified.
Tourist: It is? Well, classified be damned! What do you need this information for? I demand my rants! I'm not from some rogue, anti-American nation! I'll have you know I'm a French citizen!
Customs official:
Tourist: What? You have something against France?
Customs official: Calm down. Here. I have something for you to eat. They're freedom--I mean, French, fries. Yeah. French fries. Have one. They're really delicious.
Tourist: Why, thank you...hm, they taste kind of...
Customs official: Look, okay, why don't you just let me get your mugshot. I mean, photograph. Yeah. Because the word "mugshot" has negative connotations. And that's obviously not what I'm doing. I'm not doing anything negative.
Tourist: Um, okay...
Customs official: Nothing at all. Of the kind. This data I'm collecting probably--I mean, this data won't be used against you in any way, shape or form. It's just to protect civil liberties.
Tourist: Okay.
Customs official: It's for your privacy.
Tourist: It's for my privacy? You're collecting information about me for my privacy?
Customs official: Yes. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Tourist: These aren't the droids I'm looking for?
Customs official: No, they aren't. Come here, let me take your photograph and fingerprint you, you dear Frenchman.
Tourist: I will comply. I have no mind of my own--my own. I will--have my photograph taken.
Customs official (thinks): The drugging worked like a charm, I'll be damned. I'm sure it'll work out perfectly next week when we put these fries into the national food supply and drug them all. Then we'll have control. Ahahahaha!
Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
Well, look. Even if we were to get every person in the next 100 years, if we were to record their *age*, we could make a best guess at who's dead by now and assume that there aren't 147 yr old suicide bombers. They wont be kept forever. Duh.
If you consider how many foreigner have difficult time with many police who think "they all look alike", then this system will help prevent any racism what so ever at places like toll booth and airport strip search.
I suggest you read Slashdot
Yes, I was being sarcastic. This is a gross violation of civil liberties. We need to stop these actions on the part of the Bush administration.
George W Bush: Civil Rights Hero!
I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood
This is a lot of sobbing over nothing. A visitor's freedoms within this country aren't being hampered. Infact, the only thing that's really happening here is keeping track of who is coming an going and comparing it to a database of known criminals. Unless you get pulled in by the police for something completely unrelated, this is never going to affect 99.5% of the people who enter the US.
If a freakin fingerprint is all you have to worry about entering this country, you're still doing pretty damn good.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
The one linked article mentions that it'd take about 23 seconds per person for the extra security measure.
Assuming 100 people per plane would be checked, if all going thru the same security checkpoint, that would appear to be about 38 minutes spent. Very unreasonable delay I would think most people would consider, especially if it's some business trip.
And of course the cost would ultimately be paid by the U.S. taxpayer most likely.
The poster has it exactly right -- this is just like treating all visitors as criminals when they enter the US.
Even though terrorism is as disgusting an act as humanity has managed to think up in the past 5000 years, this is an awful move by the US. This goes beyond simple restrictions of civil liberties in the name of security.
What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Okay, let's apply this to the current "standard method of terrorizing the United States" which is Saudi terrorists in planes, or car bombs. Everybody knew that the government would do security checks on people booking one way economy tickets with cash, and that's (duh!) why the Saudi terrorists booked return tickets, first class and paid for them with credit cards. And this is the issue with all these "we mean well but we have no idea what to do" initiatives. Everybody knew that, they knew that. And now, everybody will know about the fingerprinting, and they'll know that too. If fingerprinting was applied to the current "standard model" of terrorists flying planes, should we find a piece of a terrorist's finger, we would successfully be able to indentify said finger after he kills hundreds or thousands of people. This is the perfect technology for tracking terrorists post facto. Solves nothing, and is expensive. How does this make anyone safer? I'm not sure either. I suppose it helps secure the borders -- against those with records -- so the next terrorists will be those with no records. Problem solved (for the terrorists.) Oh yes, and it will injure the tourism industry, which previously had produced $582 billion dollars in the economy. This hurt the economy while doing nothing against terrorism. Congratulations to the administration for thinking this up.
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
First of all, I have no problem with any country who wants to restrict entry to their country. I have a work permit for the U.S., but if they revoked it tomorrow, I wouldn't whine. I realize that as a non-citizen, I'm not protected by that country's constitution, and I'm not counting on it.
However, I do question the efficiency of the plan. I was fingerprinted and had my photo taken for a quickpass to get over the border called Nexus. It certainly seems like taking extra precautions against people who obey the law, cross the border lawfully every day, and pay taxes in your country is a strange focus for your limited resources.
But then again, it seems to me that attacking a country completely unrelated to the terrorist threat is a strange way to focus your resources.
Overall, this should be the decision of the people of the U.S.. It will certainly hassle visitors to your country, and make it seem unwelcoming even to the friendliest of tourists. It will also not stop the people determined to enter your country to harm you. However, it may make it a bit more difficult. Too bad it only takes one whacko with a suitcase nuke.
Personally, I think a lot of this stuff since 9/11 has been a knee jerk reaction. It's understandable, but it's completely illogical, if your goal is to prevent terrorism. You can't beat terrorism. By definition, it is the tool of the people who've already been beaten. It's a force you can't fight if you want to keep your principles.
I'm sad for you guys. Good luck though! I hope you figure yourself a way out of it.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
its better for a guilty man to go free than an innocent man be punnished.
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
How much distance? Oh, about as long as it would take to do a POST on boot up. Imagine, come in Monday morning, power up, by Friday afternoon the RAM test is finished, and you have just enough time to check your email before shutting down for the weekend.
The reason being you can bet that every criminal fingerprint search in the US will go through that database so what are the chances of a false match? Yes, everyone's fingerprints are unique but supposing its only a partial print they are trying to match. Should I have to deal with the hassle of proving to the police that I had absolutely nothing to do with a crime simply because I entered the country?
that the us government already has all the info they need on americans, so now they are expanding their program to include the rest of the world. this is an incredible amount of biometric data these people are giving away. let's just pray the US can't run databases any better than say, their education system.
I questsion the intelligence of some of the guys working immigration at airports.
I was coming back to LAX from a trip on Saturday, and I saw them taking pictures and fingerprints of "foriegn visitors"
As for me, the Immigrations guy did not trust my passport (its offical, its legal, it was issued by his agency) and demands that I produce a 2nd ID. I give him my drivers lic.
After studying both pieces of identification for a good 30-45 seconds, he comments that both pictures are the same.
I calmly tell him that he is not qualified to look at IDs because the picture on the DL was taken at the DMV when I was 16, while the passport photo was taken when I was 19.
-Grump
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
This can only hurt tourism coming into the states, so Canada will benefit.
That really is my homepage, no kidding.
I have never needed to be finger printed, and if thats the way you treat allies/friends/tourists, then you'll never see me spend my money in your country.
Disgraceful
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
I imagine that, if true, this will have a significant impact on the US hosting scientific conferences. I mean, lets face it, given a choice between visiting the US and getting treated like a criminal or going somewhere else to present your results what are you going to do?
one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
And lets say these highjackers were fingerprinted and mug shots were taken of them when the entered the country...sweet now we have pictures and fingerprints of the guys that killed themselves along with many others...lets punish them, oh wait thier dead. If they want to start making inconviences they should at least make sense.
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
try the wonderful country of Molvania
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
The EU is planning the exact same measures which will be implemented in 2006. Every country has a right to know who is traversing their borders. You already show a passport, however that is silly since they can be faked easily. People who hold US passports should be fingerprinted too, or have a retinal scan to prove that they are who they say they are. There are no "rights" being lost here. You have no "right" to anonyminity when you enter a country.
speaking of fingerprints, some veteran welder who worked almost exclusively @ nuclear powerplants got denied a security clearance because years of welding literally removed his fingerprints. What'll they do if someone entering the country is missing finger(s)? what if they enter, but have an accident at a later date? is the gov't going to demand a doctor's note?
the issue of keeping records isn't as simple as you'd think. espescially in the face of a motivated individual. hell, anyone who wants it can get a copy of CIA manuals on everything from beating polygraphs to improvised lockpicks, disguises, torture techniques... the list goes on. They might have been written in the 60's & 70's but the general principles are still valid.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
If the US fingerprint/photo system is to be so roundly condemned, let's include countries with cumbersome visa systems as well. They are at least as invasive and often more so.
I'm from Canada so I'm not on the list yet, but I'm sure that next week/month/year they will update their "suspicious countries" list and we'll be on it.
Quite frankly I like my cousins to the south, it's just the government that scares the living piss out of me.
http://infowars.com/ http://prisonplanet.com/ nuff said...
I know you mean well, but please do bear in mind that other countries had this policy for a while. I can only point and laugh that *all* of you go through this now instead of just a select, singled out minority.
In that particular instance that I linked to above, the choice given was stark: if you go to that country, follow the rules *they* impose on your visit, or don't go. Simple as that.
It's not like fingerprinting you is really a big deal in itself, especially if you don't intend staying on in the US. However, the message that this sends out very clearly is that the country no longer welcomes visitors. Hey, fingerprinting is something that I associate with being done just before you're marched into jail, not otherwise.
this article the other article
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Pissed-off Tourist (raising middle finger*): Certainly will this one do?
* since you are now doing it to Brits we would of course raise our middle and index finger in the time honoured fashion giving him the option of two fingers to choose from - we try to be helpful that way
9/11 hijackers all entered the US legally. How the fuck would you feel being trapped on the top of a burning building? Did you see the video of dozens of people jumping to their death to get away from the flames?
Fingerprinting hurts far less.
Interesting. I didn't know fingerprinting could prevent people from flying planes into buildings.
How, pray tell, would fingerprints distinguish a legal visitor who wants to go to disneyland, and a legal visitor who wants to hijack a plane and fly it into a building?
If the hijacker has no previous criminal record, as with 9/11 IIRC, why would this possibly be of use?
No, they would be detained because their fingerprints matched those on the terrorism watch list. Most of the 9/11 hijackers would have been stopped and 9/11 would not have happened.
I'm glad I'm in Canada, eh?
will you remember this in November?
Twenties Retirement
I believe the US government is overating the importance of going in a country, especially in the digital age. Videoconference, now accessible to most via IM softwares like iChatAV, MSN Messenger, AIM and the like, combined with high end vizualisation software, 3D computer models and collaboration softwares makes going in a country pretty optionnal to do most business. Outsourcing and offshorings being the perfect examples of this phenomenom. The only security this will bring to the US is that far less people will be inclined to go there, depriving the country of many revenues.
Tourism will suffer from this decision. Business will suffer from this decision. More importantly, US citizen will suffer from this decision. How will the be treated by other countries citizens and customs when travelling there? Like friends?
If you declare people as your enemies or treat them like ones do not be surprised they start acting accordingly, and that surrely won't make the US any safer.
which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM.
In ten years the zoom on digital motion cameras will be good enough to grab your fingerprints on-the-fly.
The algorithms we create for facial recognition will uniquely identify a person with under a dozen factors.
And in ten years those 2 marks will be easily stored and manipulated in just the CPU cache at the rate of 100/ms
If i get to go to heathrow and watch american tourists being finger-printed and ass-searched aswell then im totally for this! dont really need to go to the us anyway.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
dubya chose to implement this as part of his master scheme of getting reelected. You see, his only hope of reelection was as beign percieved as the only person that can make a difference in the war on terrorism. So, he wants to keep terrorism going. He does this by making sure that when Osama is surrounded, that he immediately redistributes troop strength to a part of the world that a) has no terrorists and b) will cause more terrorists to come around because they are pissed off that we are someplace we shouldn't be.
Then, he alienates our allies and really causes a stir by doing things to really drum up more anti american sentiment.
I am starting to wonder how the GOP got bush to run... wasn't quayle available that year? I am hoping at some point that the Republican party would own up to the fact that his candidacy was some big joke but that it got blown WAY out of proportion.... but it is too late now. The damage is done.
No Problem.
Well, I for one, probably won't go to Java One this year because of this. That's about $10 k out of the San Francisco area economy. Now apply that to all the foriegn visitors for all the conference places like the Moscone Centre host in a year.
All it does is get my identity into a database for a foreign country to use against me. And since I'm not a citizen, I have no right to see how the information is being used or whether it's accurate.
I personally think Canada's security is OK. We'll arrest you when we have the evidence, as we recently did in Ottawa (where I live), not before.
BTW, if you think taking pictures and finger prints is going to increase security, you are living in a dream world. Try reading any of the last 5 or 10 Cryptograms and let Bruce Schneier tell you why it will likely make us less secure.
It an unescesary invasion of my privacy. Having my fingerprints will not help the US deter or track terrorists.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Not only will this affect people travelling to the US, but also people transiting through the US to go to other countries.
I will definitely stop going to or through the US and start using a non-US airline. I think I'll write to AA to let them know. Maybe if enough people do that...
-- Slef
yea, sorry for my relying to own post; but just a few more other questions I want to put out to the rest of the crowd..
t ml
1 /2 0/185048.shtml
Does anyone else smell something seriously, seriously, seriously, wrong with the way things are going atm?
Let's trace things back for a bit. We have:
- An Administration shrouded in secrecy; winning an election that confused the hell out of the nation..
- Richard Clarke blasting the Administration..
- Former State Department intelligence official Greg Thielmann blasting the Administration..
- former U.S. ambassador Joseph Wilson's wife being leaked out as a CIA agent, after he had Wilson had blasted the Adiministration
- Peter Molan doing the same...
- now this book: Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush by John W. Dean on the Administration
Now, doesn't something seem wrong here?
and, of note: The General who lead the Iraqi War, Tommy Franks, is stated as saying he thinks the Constitution would break down into a form of a Military Government in the event that a neuclear terroist attack was successful on the US.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/EDW311A.h
and
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1
now, that scares me.
Try not to let life get in the way of living.
are canadian visitors included in this law? or are canadian tourists governed by a completely different set of rules?
...that we will FINALLY be able to find Carmen Sandiego?
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
This is not your income taxes. Nowadays, most of these go to keeping older folk on expensive drugs, and other entitlements.
This is your airplane fare at work. While I don't have a recent plane ticket with me, the approximate international airfare figures are:
$13.70 international departure tax
$13.70 international arrival tax
$15.10 in immigration and customs fees
$2.50 security fee (a.k.a. the "9-11" fee)
$3.10 federal segment fee
http://www.smarterliving.com/air/news.php?id=4145
These are "disclosed" in the nearly indecipherable two- or three-line character and number string at the bottom of your ticket.
Yup. This is yer "service fees" hard at work.
The next pasture is always greener
but what?
The first thing you can do is to quit pretending that solution to big government is to elect more politicians who favor big government. If you're planning on voting Democrat or Green, you're part of the problem, because those two parties favor larger and more intrusive government.
A government that is given more power to do good is one that has just been given more power to do evil. The solution is to take back the power we the citizens gave them. Only vote for candidates who promise to reduce the power of government in all areas.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
The Canada/US border is vast, but people *are* watching. Chances are, it has been determined that you're harmless.
This is an excelent idea because if someone is both a foreign citizen and wanting to learn how to fly then they must be a terrorist. There cannot be any other explanation.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
The first thing you can do is to quit pretending that solution to big government is to elect more politicians who favor big government. If you're planning on voting Democrat or Green, you're part of the problem, because those two parties favor larger and more intrusive government.
Ok, before I respond to this, let me ask you one question...do you think Republicans don't?!?
Twenties Retirement
Ashcroft is a moron. He views the world through the suspicious eyes of a policeman. Him and his president (not mine, I, like most of the country, did not vote for him) are as short-sighted as they are destructive. How on earth is making the whole world hate America making us safer? As previous posts have said, if someone wants to get into the country they can simply cross over via the LONGEST UNGUARDED BORDER IN THE WORLD from Canada. This is yet another power grab by a power-hungry, corrupt and illegitimate regime.
The days of building big old walls to keep people out are over. Bush and his cronies would do a lot better to spend that effort and money on improving the world relations that they are actively severing, not to mention fixing problems that kill far more Americans every year than terrorism, like car accidents and cancer.
This administration is an embarrassment and is turning us into a rogue state. 4 more years of Bush and it won't be safe for Americans to travel.
Any determined person could get into your house, whether or your door is locked or not. But that doesn't stop you from throwing the deadbolt, does it?
It's about time we knew a little about who is entering the country through legitimate avenues, let alone people who cross the border illegally.
Information gathered about you is no less than what every American citizen has on file, so stop your screaming, bitching and wailing, and stick yer finger in that scanner. It won't bite!
Isn't a massive fingerprint database kinda of dangerouse? I mean, if you collect all the fingerprints before a crime is comitted, how dificult would it be to all the sudden find those fingerprints at a crime sceene. In the case of taking finger prints after the arerst there usually is a long trail of fingerprint being viewed were it couln't be altered, but now I could just say that your finger prints were on the weapon and have one or 2 others validate it after I already caught you.
On the other hand with printers become as good as they are, whats stopping someone from taking prints from the database and printing them on somelatexgloves and leaving someone elses finger prints at a crime sceene? Now I could convict anyone I had a problem with because they entered the country.
My tinfoil hat is comming loose so i better wrap this up.
As a matter of fact... not even... if its an inbound international flight. thats what we call a minor detail....
I just flew into SFO (San Francisco International) yesterday from Seoul after a week of business there, and shortly before arrival they announced that for security reasons, everyone had to present their passport as they got off the plane - not for customs, but right at the gate exit.
On my way off the exit ramp, sure enough, there were four very large policemen there inspecting everyone's passports. I heard one say to another "is this the name?" and the other reply "no, it's the last name we need to check." Obviously they suspected someone on some flight from the region of asia my flight came through (another flight connected to mine).
Anyway getting to the point, there were a lot of grumbles about the inconvenience and people worrying about whether it would delay them getting to their next connecting flight. Now, imagine not only just checking the passport, but actually getting fingerprinted and photographed - how much more time would that take? And are they going to use the digital fingerprinters, or old fashioned ink? Then everyone has to wash their hands after?
This is a great way to kill off tourism here. I just love my country sometimes.
I browse Slashdot at +3, Funny
The really awful thing is that a major thing we used to think despicable about Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany was the identification papers and the restrictions on travel.
With computer databases, your image and your fingerprints *are* identification papers, and now you are being forced to hand them over at checkpoints.
Seriously, it was all very funny when we *started* to point out the amazing number of similarities between Hitler and Bush's rise. There was a terrorist act on a national monument (and even, in the 9/11 case, *attempted* on the national legislature, same as Germany) that produced national fear, whipped up by leader, used to convince legislature to pass through critical bills granting extensive police powers. Political opponents were accused of being soft on terrorism. Fear and xenophobia against religious (Islamic/Christian) and racial (Arabic/Jewish) groups was used to greatly infringe those people's rights and persecute them. A number of undesireable people, in violation of national law, were locked up in a camp to isolate them from the rest of society (Guantanamo Bay/Nazi concentration camps). Nationalistic fervor was whipped up and whipped up again to build up a popular base. Personal vendettas were made good upon with the new power (Bush-Hussein/Hitler-a number of enemies). Other countries were invaded and occupied on poor pretexts, banking on the fact that other, less powerful, countries would not be willing to organize or do more than protest (Iraq/several countries). A primary motivation for the invasion was resources (and later Nazi invasion into the USSR was significantly for oil). Business and government had close ties, and war profiteer corporations did a number of nasty things to take advantage of cronyism with major political figures (Schindler's List is a nice example). Right now the third largest employer of armed forces in Iraq (after the US and Britain)are private corporations -- big companies that are answerable only to an extremely friendly occupational government that grants Iraqis almost no rights and consists mostly of people trying to curry favor with their US occupiers to try to get a more advantageous political position in the future. Neither leader is brilliant, but both are prone to violence and grudge-holding. Both managed to seize control of the legislature at about the time they gained office. Neither has much regard for the lives of the people they have conquered -- we have been using unarmed Iraqi guards as inspectors of cars into restricted areas before US personnel come close, making human shields out of them. Neither feels that international opinion is of much import. Both quickly established powerful police organizations with far stronger powers than their predecessors, little oversight, and the ability to bypass much of the judicial system (OHS/Gestapo). Both started their invasions based on punishing the terrorists that attacked their nation, and immediately spread out once they had the power they needed. Both had rising unemployment in their countries, and a growing degree of xenophobia towards foreign laborers.
There are some differences. Hitler respected and even idolized what Britain had done -- Bush treats Britain as a lapdog. Hitler actively physically intimidated his physical opponents -- Bush does not. Hitler invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of no countries within his first four years as ruler, whereas Bush invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of two countries within his first four years as ruler. Hitler wound up eventually killing many more people than Bush has thus far, though Bush is currently ahead for the first four years of rule. Hitler did not actively attempt to control other countries through diplomatic means -- Bush has a team that works hard to control other contries without needing to overthrow their government. Bush has computers and telecommunication monitoring systems, but Hitler did not.
Screw Goodwin's Law. The man didn't write it in 2004.
I'll leave
May we never see th
If you think I'm being paranoid, consider that the 20th century's worst dictator's unleashed their fury against "cosmopolitan" elements in their societies. Both Stalin and Hitler considered "foreign" elements a threat to their rule and crushed them without mercy. Part of keeping your own population docile in ensuring they never have the opportunity to see how citizens of other countries live.
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Anouncing the new Spring/Summer tech conference Lineup
Apr 28- May 5
Comdex Baghdad
May 12 - 20
Object World Kabul
May 28 - Jun 6
Computer Coders Ass'n Islamabad
Jun 19 - 25
Infosec Beijing
Jul 8 - 16
Netcom Casablanca
Cool, so my country (Australia) who sent troops to Iraq - now has its citizens treated the same way suspects are when brought into a police station.
I just can't wait to plan my next holiday to Disneyland!
Man watching 6 MSCE's around a sun box, looks alot like the opening scene's of 2001:space odyssey...
I'm all in favor of this. The US hass way more international support than it deserves. maybe this will wake up the rest of the world. I just hope that the rest of the world will forgive us if we ever return to a more reasonable government.
What happens to the percentage of people coming thru the system who want to, and eventually become citizens? Will the data be erased?
Do you realize that millions of people attend these "anti-American mosques"? A lot of the world is anti-american, some will act violently on their beliefs, and some will not.
You know, how is getting your mug shot taken and having a copy of your fingerprint on file detracting from our civil liberties? It's like the govenrnment knowing you name. Or do you not want them to know that too? It's just identification. I think a government has the right to know who is in the country it protects.
> ...something that used to be mainly limited to
> your local police precinct.
Not mine.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Their Congressional charter is after all to make recommendations for how to strengthen security and avoid terrorist attacks in the future.
Help fight continental drift.
once you are in, you may walk from a country to another without any kind of border control.
"secretly collect the fingprints of people who attend radical anti-American mosques"
Freedom of association?
No? Doesn't ring a bell?
Wonders why Americans complained so much about the civil rights violations in USSR and now in China...
Thank you, a sane voice in the 2-party nightmare of the USA. I propose we get a 'none of the above' box and if that wins, all nominees are removed, along with any others from their affiliated parties.
"It's time to start skimming the gene pool"
I mean, I've been told that - we've all been told that for at least a century, maybe two. But has there ever been a significant study that actually checked that?
I'd love to see that, just to put my conscience to rest. The biggest assumption that biometric identification makes is that it is actually a unique identifier, but I haven't seen any evidence that this has been proved to be true.
Anyone who wants to point me to such a study would put my mind at ease.
Mike Hoye
Okay, I'll probably get flamed for this, but what the hell, it's friday.
I really don't see what the big deal is regarding fingerprints. I mean, you can't do anything useful with a fingerprint (excepting tin-foil-people's theories that DNA from the fingerprint oil will be used in some secret government lab somewhere. Or that the gubbmint will 'spoof' the fingerprint and try to frame someone in a crime.)
This is happening only at a border. I do think that a country has every right to know exactly who is entering it's borders. Ie, the reason every country has an immigration department and all countries issue passports. The fingerprinting is, in my view, basically a secure passport that can't be spoofed (well, not easily at least).
Now if there were photo and fingerprint stations around the country monitoring who did what and went where, then that's a whole different thing that I'll be against 100%.
But fingerprinting and photographs, invading privacy? IMHO, I don't get it. They're not taking pictures of your genitals, and your photo is on your passport so you should have no shame of a record of you coming into a country anyway.
Now I do agree with you that it'll probably not do jack for stopping terrorists. But the real issue is this - does a country have a right to know exactly who enters it's borders or not?
And finally, at least now ALL countries are getting fingerprinted, which is what they should have done since the beginning, instead of only targetting specific countries. At least that universal policy wouldn't make some people feel like assholes (aka what Brazil is doing).
make world, not war
... a lot of the people complaining are coming from societies that are just as intrusive if not more so. The UK, for example, is rapidly covering itself in surveillance and traffic cameras, and refusing to divulge an encryption key when demanded by the authorities is a jailable offense.
Republicans: Say they want smaller government during the campaign, but afterwards do the opposite.
Democrats: Say they want bigger government during the campaign, and do their best afterwards to keep their promise.
Either way, both major parties are equally at fault for the steady erosion of our liberties (economic, civil and political).
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Want to be fingerprinted?
Join the military.
Helps them identify the 1-2 kg of your remains after you step in the wrong place or stand under a 2000-lb bomb.
Being fingerprinted is not a big deal.
Unless you plan to be a criminal later in life.
Seriously. I feel better knowing they can identify me from the smudges on the inside of the trunk of the car I was buried in.
went from thailand and last minute to malaysia and singapore for a vacation. those three countries did not fingerprint or mugshot people coming in the country.
:) people would treat them more the same or even better.
:)
generally, i view their country peaceful. i don't see any necessity with it. i view that the people in malaysia and thailand are particularly friendly and that reduces terroristic attacks to them, imho. they are also very friendly to tourists and others.
on the other hand, the usa keeps on irritating people entering their country. the only thing it affects is tourism. i have a us visa. i have plans to go to the usa for some vacation but given this, i'll probably go to china, japan and korea instead.
usa is indirectly challenging the terrorists. it's like we keep our systems secure so crackers/hackers would not mess with us. of course, someone will be able to break in stealthily and the us government will not have any clue (just like the 9/11.) after something happens, the us government will patch some things up and the thing repeats all over again.
i would like to say that maybe if the usa will be more friendly (i'm not saying they are not, but i don't see it) to others, then maybe other parties will be open. much like fighting, you will not achieve anything by hitting the other person. it just aggravates the situation. though i cannot provide any contrete examples now, maybe they can start by being friendly to countries and opening and increasing dialogue talks. you wouldn't know the problem unless you ask the party about it.
Live your life each day as if it was your last.
Here in georgia, you must take a print for a drivers license now*, and most banks have a print pad for cashing checks. All states will have it for DL's soon, it's the non declared but defacto national identy card. Internal passports will be next.
*I also suspect, really just suspect, they've been doing a closeup retina scan print during the picture taking part of the license, if that's possible at a distance of a few feet. I don't know, though. I can't prove it, but last time I got mine renewed it sure was suspicious, EVERYONE in the line had two pics taken, and I asked about it, because before for years and years it was "one snap, sorry, you're stuck with that one, move along now" and the lady state cop gave me quite a squirrely answer and looked chagrined about it, like she was embarrased/angry at the same time.
And I mean really, what a scam anyway, prints and pics at the OFFICIAL border crossings, yet they turn a blind eye to the MILLIONS who cross illegally, and it's not all "out of work poor hispanics" who cross over, there's all kindsa folks sneaking across. Tell me this ain't weird..
The whole "war on terror" stuff is being taken advantage of in this stealth coup that's been going on, IMO. Look at all the 9-11 government prior knowledge stuff that is FINALLY making the mainstream news the past few weeks.
There are many problems with this policy, not the least of which is the good ole' "doesn't fix the perceived problem".
This policy does however, provide an excellent solution to the problem of "politicians in charge need to appear to act decisive to gain re-election". Particularly when the government is running breathtaking budget deficits -- whats a few more billion to implement this?
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
a photo and single fingerprint is only
the start. once business has begun
adopting RFID tags, I would fully expect
every citizen and every visitor to be
required to have a sub-dermal RFID
implant, as well as a DNA sample.
Total Information Awareness (TIA) wasn't
named that for nothing.
I predict that Canada will be hosting an increasing number of scientific meetings from now on. I already have colleagues who are flat out refusing to travel to the U.S. due to this insanity.
Far more important than tourist dollars are business dollars:
Until recently the US was the undisputed center of the international economy. Recently the EU has risen as a potential threat, and in other fields so has China.
Despite all claims of telecommunications and ecommerce, big business deals are still made in personal meetings, and have more to do with social processes than with economics.
Given these measures, where do you think the business will go?
If you had to choose between making a deal with someone who deals with you as an equal, or someone who treats you like a terrorist, which one would you choose?
Many a good business proposal has gone down because of more trivial reasons: bad personal chemistry, bad food in a business dinner, personal dislike for a national stereotype, etc.
In Latin America, for example, people have been typically happy to do business with Americans:
The stereotype says that Americans like to do business, have money, and keep things straightforward. The US was normally seen as a nation that welcomes you and treats you like a king as long as you bring money to pay for it.
The whole US was for most middle-class businessmen of the region like a mix of Disneyland and a Giant Shopping Mall is for a teenage girl. A business meeting in Atlanta, New York or Florida is a half-vacation.
In short, they're happy and receptive to a pitch while the other team has 'home advantage'.
More recently, it's easy to find people feeling personally insulted by new measures post 9/11. Now this can make them feel like criminals.
People will start to simply refuse to go to the US, for business or pleasure: "if they want to do business, let them come here". And the stereotype will be different as well: Americans are paranoid, make things difficult, think of everyone else as criminals and terrorists.
It wouldn't take much for a friendly European or Asian competitor to take the business. It's not like they have to dazzle them with a better offer, they just have to make them feel better about the deal.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
a political climate where the average cow has more rights than a guest of the USA, CHECK. peta is now considering classifying tourists as an endangered species.
I don't think I see what the big deal is. Is it not within the rights of a nation to record and track non citizens within it's borders? I'm not even talking about the effectiveness of the system (or lack thereof). It just seems like this is totally within the bounds of a nations rights. Seems to me like a lot of crying over nothing; I wouldn't be offended having to have my fingerprints and photograph taken when entering another country any more than when my baggage needs to be checked when flying. As for those Americans who refused to be fingerprinted and photographed in Brazil: The only reason that they might have to be upset about is that Brazil was acting childish in response to America's new security measures. I wouldn't mind being fingerprinted and photographed for security, but just because you don't like my country's new policy?
Now that I've got your attention, consider this:
1. Most of the 9/11 bastard hijackers were Saudi
2. Most of the money flowing to terrorist organizations is Saudi.
3. Most of the "brains" behind all this are from Pakistan.
So what do the Bushies do?
1. Ignore Saudis
2. Invade Iraq - something which could have been done anytime.
3. Promote the pakis to "non-nato" ally status
4. Jerk off visitors to the US with their dumbass US-VISIT program.
Fscking idiots. But hey, you get the government that you deserve and most Americans are fscking idiots anyway.
Welcome to Canada. We don't force Urine samples, retinal identification or DNA tests at our borders. More importantly we also do not beleive in tatooing a barcode to your genitals so that you will be too afraid to try and remove it.
Really...
I am a Brazilian citizen and once I applied for a Canadian VISA in order to visit my relatives.
After lots of paper asking my personal data and financial info to the microscopic details, an interview with a lie-detector and paying a reasonable sum for "processing" I've got:
- no visa
- black stamp in my passport
- a letter saying they had reasons to believe I lied in the data i provided them.
Months later I entered Canada with my Portuguese password (I have double nationality) on the visa waiver program. I've got no major problems.
Conclusion: For Canada there are "normal" people and "2nd class" ones.
Funny thing is that Canadians all the time say "US don't respect foreigners - US suck", "but Canada, oh that's a nice country" etc etc.
Well, BS.
Never again i put my feet in a country which categorizes people are "worth" and "worthless".
Canada is NO BETTER than the USA.
F**ck you Canada.
Watch out for the "I hate Bush, I'm voting for Nader" effect, which of course virtually assures that you will spoil the democrats chance at plurality and allow the Republicans to win.
AC has a right on observation there, those anthrax attacks were just too cute. The timing, the source of the strain, etc. Too cute. Then the "mad sniper attacks". And that journalist in fla who got nailed with it? Seems like he was working on an expose of the shrubs twins, all their partying and stoning (most likely) and so forth.
whut a coinky-dink, uh huh
USA 9-11 plane attacks = Germany Reichstagg fire
The worlds puppet masters and goons have a saying when it comes to intrigue actions "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Create a problem, get the reaction from the target, offer your "solution". Works every time for them, why should they change?
Does it make you feel better now to know the US is emulating countries it once surpassed in freedoms and liberties? Give yourselves a big pat on the back and ignore the obvious descent your last two administrations have imposed on your nation, rest assured you're still somewhat better than countries formerly under Soviet rule. Hooo. Rah.
.... I will stop visiting the US.
I have no intention to leave my fingerprints in a system where I have no control over what is going to happen.
Was nice going there but I guess from now on I go to Brazil.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
The US is requiring fingerprints for all vistitors from those countries who don't, or won't in the near future, have biometric passports for it's citizens. Only exceptions are Mexico and Canada.
And given Canada's track record regarding passports, forgeries, and terrorists, I'm entirely surprised that that Canadians aren't being required to be fingerprinted when they cross the border. Maybe the Yanks figure they couldn't stand all the whining from up north if they did?
Canadian security is not ok. We're wide open for a terrorist attack, our infrastructure is crumbling, we have virtually no armed force left aside from those wandering bankrupt around Afghanistan, our emergency services couldn't survive 48 hours without electricity, but you think Canadian security is just fine? You must either be a Liberal, or vote for the NDP.
Quote JohnnyCannuk's sig:
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
So we don't appease. Got a problem?
Yeah, as well shoot them as they come out of the plane, it's not like killing people after all. Some of them may even be terrorists or french.
Mmmh... must remember not to vacation on USA.
"I think this line is mostly filler"
Hey, fingerprinting is something that I associate with being done just before you're marched into jail, not otherwise.
Do you have a drivers license or state issued ID card in the US? I believe all states require a fingerprint (but I could be wrong). The department of motor vehicles is typically a pretty unpleasant place, but I wouldn't exactly call it a jail...
After all, what do we really need their name and age for anyway? Didn't the Nazis ask people to reveal their name and age?
And now it's a photo and a fingerprint. Oh the humanity!
This is how countries work at this level.
So....you Americans can expect to also be photographed and fingerprinted too.
Something tells me there is another agenda at stake and that this is what was intended all along anyway.
" Terrorism isn't about what country you come from. A terrorist is a person who acts out due to their insane beliefs. A terrorist could come from Australia, or the UK, or even the US."
Even the USA?!!!!! Surely not?!
how I was treated by the TSA
;)
Speaking of which, I have a feeling I'll be running into these brave guardians of US homeland security again this Sunday when I fly back home to Eire. Has anyone got any good tips or ideas on how to piss them off enough and make a point of how "good" a job they're doing "protecting" america? Sufficiently strong that they get the point, yet not so strong that i get carted away obviously!
Was thinking of singing an old Wehrmacht marching song while they search me, but I doubt the TSA people would get it.
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
that the 'land of the free and the home of the brave' is horribly restrictive and lives in abject terror?
What Future?
It's not just "close allies", it's "non-Visa" countries - it's a very subtle, but important difference. Perhaps it was just a headline-reader who submitted the story?
Yes, even the USA. The Anthrax terrorist activities originated from an internal, domestic source. No-one is immune unfortunately. The problem I have with fingerprinting visitors as par-for-course, is that it is vaguely reminscient of "guilty, until proven innocent" logic.
Impossible, just another way of saying really hard--given sufficient time, all problems are solvable.
Because the only people that would dare vote for Nader are Democrats right?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
"Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly."
Imagine what kind of trouble the US could be in if a social engineer could get his hands on that. Any social engineer in general, even a master Arabic identify stealer... terrorist counts could raise.
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
what a great idea
so long tourism - err - terrorism
The US is free to do whatever it sees fit to protect itself; I don't have a problem with that and no-one should.
But, I won't be giving my fingerprints to any foreign government, and I expect many Americans would feel the same way.
In the last decade I've made many trips to the US, at least once a year. I've worked in the US for a few months at a time, spending all my wages in that country.
Aside from the time I spent there working, I estimate I've spent $US 30,000 in what amounts to a total of about 70 days travel there for pleasure.
One trip I took, weeks after 9/11 when the entire tourism industry was reeling (to Minneapolis) lasted 3 days and I spent over $1500.00. One 10-day trip to Chicago I spent $5,000.00.
You won't see that money again. I'm going elsewhere for vacation from now on. Just as the US is free to do whatever it feels necessary to protect itself, I'm free to spend my money as I see fit.
The US customs has full access to any records held by police in my country, and state police can call that data up from the patrol car.
If I had been charged with any offense here at home, my fingerprints would be part of that information. Keep in mind shoplifting is a felony here; one bad check is a felony; lying on a loan application is a felony; in fact there's no such thing as a misdemeanor anything beyond common traffic offenses (and serious traffic offenses are felonies).
The fact that I don't have any fingerprint records, to me, is testament to my good character.
But, once I give that information away, I have no control over what a foreign government can do with it. I won't be taking that risk.
I grew up less than 15 minutes from the US border. My family kept a mailbox in Northport, Wa., where my grandmother was born and raised. She later moved to Canada to marry my grandfather. My family has many friends in the United States of America, and I have relatives down there to this day. I spent nearly every summer of my childhood near Kettle Falls, swimming on the shores of the Columbia river, flying kites and catching june bugs. From the mountains near my hometown, you can see the United States. It's absolutely no different from the landscape in Canadian. All you can see to distinguish the two nations -- if you're lucky -- is a cutline less than twenty feet across. When we used to go across the border, my father was waved through. The border guards knew him well. As I got older, that slowly changed. Border checks took longer, the guards were more insistent on searching him, and even though they all expressed regret, asking how we kids were, much of the time they still spent time checking him out. The last time I went to the US, I spent an hour at the border while the car I was driving in was searched top to bottom. The border guards were rude, humorless and in-your-face. Canada is still exempt from this change in the laws, and I love the USA. But I can honestly say that if the laws ever change to require that kind of invasive documentation with respect to Canadians, I will never go back to the USA again. Watching the US over the last four years has been very much like watching a family member go crazy. I sincerely hope things change, soon, because I would really like to take the kids I will someday have swimming in the river down there, and show them what awesome neighbours we were lucky enough to have. Right now, I think it's even money that that will happen.
That is pure myth. The only adminstration in the last 25 years to not run a deficit was Clinton. The Clinton adminstration is the one that saw the smallest increase in federal employees in the last 25 years.
Republicans are not for smaller government. They are for having government intrude in my bedroom and personal life. They are for giving big tax cuts to their rich buddies. The are for gouging the government with fat contracts to their contributors (Haliburton).
And I'm saying this as a Libertarian, not a Democrat. Republicans claim to be better for the economy, but the past 25 years show that to be wrong. At least the democrats aren't as happy to take away my rights.
Notice how the Republicans are the ones always proposing constitutional amendments to take away people's rights. Smaller government my ass.
Maybe they could store the data in Googles Gmail System? Multiple accounts. Yes I know it was a joke...
I think the slashdot moderators are in bed with the US government. That has to be it.
That really is my homepage, no kidding.
What if it's not meant to work? I don't usually wear a tin foil hat, but the government must be aware that this is unlikely to do much, if anything, to stop terrorism. They do, however, get a nice database of the world's citizens out of it.
And if the next terrorist attack is carried out by a US citizen, well, who could deny that Americans should submit their biometrics to the database, too?
I should buy some cement.
> The new Spanish leader thinks that by removing troops
> from the middleast his country will be safer.
Bull, bull, bull! Will you quit beating up this oh-so-convenient strawman? That is NOT why he is planning on pulling the troops back, but rather because he (and the Spanish majority) opposed putting them in on principle from the start. Now he gets a chance to act on his principles. The media and their willing followers can spin this whichever way they want, but this straw ain't gonna turn to gold.
Extremism is a world wide infection that if we don't squash it then we are all doomed as are our freedoms...
A wise man once said the following:
"If we could only get rid of the ideologues, everything would be PERFECT!"
I do like the poster who has the following sig...
"there are four boxes used for liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. use in order."
it is appropos to the topic at hand.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Is why you find this so horrible? Let's not argue if it's actually useful or not for the monent, what is so horrible about this? You are required to identify yourself when entering the US or any other country. You must have a passport, which is an official government document that confirms your identity, to enter. To lie about it or falisfy it is a way to go to prison for a long time.
So now they want to verify identity in an additonal way. Why is this such a problem for you?
If you really have such a problem with having the government photograph and watch you, you'll have to add a lot more countries to your no go list./ The UK, for example, had a quite extensive camera network. They are of course in public places and used lawfully, but they watch their citizens and visitors during everyday bussiness.
I'm not sure why people see this entry/exit documentation as such a horrible thing. I'm not saying it's a USEFUL thing, but that is an issue of the American tax payers and their government. I just don't see it as a serious invasion of privacy. You are already being required to identify yourself, and provide an explanation for the reason of your travels, I don't see how having your picture taken is so bad.
Yet strangely enough, ton after ton of high-grade marijuana flows across the border to New York City alone. Laugh if you will, but if bales of aromatic plant matter can enter the country on a routine basis, then a few clever men will certainly be able to do the same.
====---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
terrorourist: n. Anyone who travels into the US. (terrorist + tourist) Usage: Another plane full of terrorourists arrived from France today, trying to infiltrate reason, sanity, and cheese into the country.
As an American citizen myself, I'm stuck contributing funds against my will to prop up the airline industry, which largely crumbled and collapsed under the government's anti-terror policies.
IMHO, this situation should never have happened in the first place. It was our govt. that slipped up and didn't catch the terrorists before they actually carried out their hijaacking plans. The fallout from their mistakes ended up being covered up by our tax dollars.
Americans... please, please, PLEASE VOTE in November! Don't give up on the system. This upcoming election is probably going to be the most important in our (and our children's) lives.
If you don't like these policies. If you think there are better solutions to these problems, exercise your right to vote and effect change.
I know it is different from the governemt doing it to people comming into the country but it is simular to your nazis analogy? Maybe there is a line between going too far and we have just started looking aT it. Soon we might cross over it.
That would be (relatively) nice if it were true, but isn't one of the properties of a one way hash that a small change in the source makes a wildly large change in the hash result? That seems like an insurmountable problem for hashing fingerprints and then comparing them to hashes of fingerprints taken months or years later. Even without hashes, don't take a bath or wash the dishes before going to the airport! Just leave them sitting in the sink during your 2 week vacation...tourists love coming home to that sort of thing.
If we were ants living on a Rubik's cube, differential geometry would be a little more confusing.
Unfortunately in today's society there is a third group mucking around, business. Big Government evolved to meet the challenges of Big Business and the rise of the class war between labor and "capital" in the early twentieth century.
It is here for a reason.
The government at least pretends to care about the people, large scale corporation are just focused on profit.
I prefer the evil I have some measure of control over.
I mean other than Mexico or Canada (who wer are on special terms with). It has ALWAYS been "Your identification papers, please". You MUST have a passport and not having one will cause you real trouble. They demand you give it to them, fill out a form declaring the reason and length of your visit, as well as what you are bringing. You must then obtain their official permission (usually in the form of a stamp) to be there.
The document they require is nothing simple either. It's an official federal proof of identity. Getting it requires proving citizenship and identity. It's actually much harder in many countries. I'm a US/Canada dual citizen. My US passport was easy, just prove I'm my parent's kid that was that. My Canadian one is a bitch. They need lots more ID (copy of my driver license and US passport, and my physical citizen ID card), a sworn statement testifying to my identity by a notary public (or doctor, lawyer, etc) who has known me for a few years, etc.
Know what? They STILL want me to go through all the shit when I go to the US or Canada from the other. I can get away with less than a passport since I'm a citizen and the countries are on good terms, but it's more difficult. To any other country, forget it. It's a passport or nothing.
ID checks at the border are nothing new, and have needed official ID for a LOOOONG time.
Unfortunately this means I'll have avoid visiting the US from now, which is a shame, because I was planning a trip to visit a few friends fairly soon.
Most americans I've met are friendly, open, decent, people whom I've really enjoyed meeting and getting to know in my past visits. It's a shame that I can't come and see them any more, or visit any of the great places in the US, but I refuse to be treated as a criminal and have my photo and fingerprint in some foreign nations database over which i have absolutely no control.
So, I'll do the only thing I can and try to stay out. Hope you won't miss my tourist dollars. I'll sure miss the friendly and nice people.
This makes sense if you assume that Democrats are that much different from Republicans.
Kerry, Bush, Kerry, Busy... I dunno, if you squint just right, they don't look all that much different from one another...
Does it make you feel better now to know the US is emulating countries it once surpassed in freedoms and liberties?
No, it does not make me happy. Not at all. But it's irksome to be told the US is a black kettle by a bunch of black pot Europeans.
The inhabitants of the US are worried about the state of the US. The inhabitants of Europe are worried about the state of the US. Which makes me wonder if there's anyone left to worry about the state of Europe!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
How does this help protect me again?
Oh look bread and circuses...what was I saying?
And if you aren't allowing at LEAST 2 hours to clear customs, you aren't a smart traveler. Customs is just a slow process, and this won't significantly alter the speed. I mean when I go to Canada, which is an easy customs process since the US and Canada are on great terms (and I'm a citizen) it can vary greatly. The quickest I've ever cleared is about 2 minutes. That's if I get up and get an agent right away and don't need to wait in line. I mean as a minimum they look at and scan your passport, check your declaration, and then ask the standard questions.
However I've had to wait over an hour at times. For whatever reason, it gets REAAAAAAALY backed up. I always have a book with me for this reason (unpacking the laptop is just inconvienet). Thankfully it happens rarely, but it does happen. I'd say nominal time is about 10-15 minutes given normal traffic and efficiency.
So really, I don't see the problem. It's just another step in an already annoying process. A useless step, I think, but I really doubt it will cause any sort of major inconvienence. Remember we are talking digital readers here. Look at the camera, it snaps your shot, touch your finger to the reader. Done.
If that small time difference makes you miss a flight, then you should plan better because I gaurentee that the hour you might spend someitme will really screw you.
I do think that we should do away with it, simply because it isn't going to be useful, but as serious incovinenence it ain't. You are already inconvienenced at customs, this is just another minor step that will add maybe 30 seconds to the time it takes.
Gee - so what happens if a disgruntled/bored INS worker updates a photo/print record to indicate that personal friends of is on the watch list?
Somehow I don't think that Heinrich Pierer (CEO of Siemens) will enjoy the anal probes during his "interview".
Then of course you also have the consideration of the INS employee with three ex-wives and a gambling problem who is asked to "do a favour" for someone.
Just wondering.
This makes me feel bad.
I'll avoid going to the States while this politic is going on. I don't like to be treated as a criminal.
Such passports include fingerprint and iris identification features that make the documents virtually impossible to counterfeit. U.S. passports haven't been upgraded with those features yet, either.
Until the US implements its own biometric passports, this is pointless from a security point of view--terrorists will just forge US passports and enter the US with even shorter lines. So, the stated reason makes no sense.
That means that either the Bush administration is stupid or that they are doing this deliberately to annoy the Europeans. We know better, but European politicians will naturally assume the latter and view it as a deliberate statement by the US that the US wishes to cool relations with Europe.
Last time I came, I spent loads of cash buying clothes, DVDs, CDs and others items including restaurant meals... Enough to pay 5 worker's monthly wage.
Guess what, you'll pay them yourself, next time.
But you ARE welcome to spend your green faces on which you misspellt your trust in goLd here, in Switzerland (they land here anyway).
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Are you serious? Every administration in the last 25 years increased the size of government. Some may not have grown it as fast as others, but none have decreased it. Clinton oversaw the smallest increase in federal employees, but he still oversaw an increase.
Democrats don't want a smaller government, they want a more efficient big government.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
A lot of the world is anti-american
and that makes them my enemies.
some will act violently on their beliefs
and those people I have to try to kill, as they're trying to kill me.
some will not
and I won't forget those people are there. Tell me you're my enemy, and I'll keep an eye on you. Show me you're my enemy and I'll kill you.
Spoken like a true radical..
Put this guy into the terrorist database, folks.
NONONONO WRONG. This attitude is exactly what gets us into these horrible situations. First of all, the idea that the parties are similar is just ridiculous. If you think this, you are wrong. No, you're not worldly and wise, you're just ignorant.
yea isn't it funny, we used to laugh at those germans for putting up a wall and having checkpoints everywhere. They didn't know what is was to be free we thought. tear down that wall regan said. now we see israel building one. fingerprinting visitors? oh god no.. now we do the same.
did you forget to take your meds?
It's not very common in the US outside of arrests, but it's not rare either. For example I wanted a permit to carry a concealed weapon. My state issues them, but one of the requirements is that you get fingerprinted. This makes sense since a great many crimes where a firearm is used are solved by getting prints off the weapon. They assume (correctly for the most part) that if you get a CCW permit, you intend to carry a weapon often (I don't but most do). Thus they want to make sure that if you use it illegally, they have your prints available to use against you. Turns out to be not so useful since it is exceedingly rare of a permit holder to commit a crime (criminals don't bother with permits) but it's not expensive nor a major inconvienence.
There are also professions that require one to become licensesed and bonded and as such fingerprinted.
I do see your point about the psychology, but really, people need to get a clue about it. I bet attitudes will start to change as biometrics are likely to become a more popular method of authentication for banking, work, etc. Fingerprints are at this point one of the cheapest and easiest methods so I imagine they'll be widespread.
My wife and I were all ready to head to Hawaii inearly May to work at an observatory on Mauna Kea but after discussing it with her I've cancelled our flight. Instead we'll fall-back on some time promised us on a telescope in Chile.
This was not a decision taken lightly, but we just can't bring ourselves to donate any of the little money we have to a nation rapidly becoming the Fourth Reich and which treats its guests and visitors as if they are apprehended criminals undergoing processing down at the jailhouse.
After they have blown themselves up (along with many Americans) they will not be bothered that their prints and mugshot are on file.
;-)
Government propaganda here in UK is just as bad.
We are told there is no requirement to carry this ID card - but that is just a Red Herring.
FACT: it will be very simple to identify you absolutely anywhere with a portable fingerprint scanner.
Once data is transmitted to base - they can have your identity within seconds.
The ID Card itself is totally irrelevant - it is purely a means to an end.
You could be stopped anywhere and authorities would know everything about you - they would not need your ID card.
They will have effectively branded a number on every person in UK.
Just like in 1942, when Nazi's began tattooing numbers on the left forearm of all prisoners.
Find anybody to deny that you can be read like some barcode on a bag of peas at the supermarket till.
They are treating us all like criminals - putting everybody's fingerprints and eye scans on file.
With this and reading your private mail over the Internet - it is most clear they all want a surveillance society.
Garry Anderson - Haverhill UK - Home Page - proper English spelling
Asyslum seekers from Uganda and Someone from the UK who fancies going shopping in New York aren't exactly the same thing are they?
I wanted to go to the US but will not do so, even though my GBP will go a long way over there. But I wont be treated like a criminal for daring to travel there.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
You might find it interesting that although the U.S is indeed the largest spender on aid (though 20 something-th in terms of % of GNP) the lions share goes to just three countries - from the top. Russia, Israel, Egypt. Oh - Pakistan is at number 4.
The big problem is that the US and some other countries fail so miserably in understanding their problem.
When terrorists want to destroy their country and "freedom", these governments don't sit down and asks themselves "why would they want to do that, are we maybe doing some things to them that they don't like?". No. They are going out to destroy them and enforce their "freedom" onto other people.
And that happens to be the original fact that the terrorists did not like. So, a "war on terrorism" is not going to end terrorism, it is just feeding it with new motifs and new people who also want to join in that war.
If the Americans and allies want to protect themselves and head-off terroristic attacks, they must first and foremost focus on themselves, not on the people that are trying to enter their country.
They must change behaviour, not only be concerned about their own freedom but also that of other people (including the freedom not to want to join in their definition of a free world), and back down on their desire to control everything and everyone.
Actually, the courts have ruled that the folks down in Gitmo aren't entitled to the protections of the U.S. Constitution because they are not on U.S. soil, but Cuban soil. However, this has no real effect on the discussion, since when you get fingerprinted and photo'd you're on U.S. soil.
Of course, I really have no idea where I'm going with this, considering the 14th amendment says "within its jurisdiction", making this whole post essentially useless.
It's only the foreigners who are having civil liberties violated
Let's see... I used to be able to fly anywhere within the U.S. without having to show picture ID. Now, I must carry my papers and be prepared to show them at U.S. government checkpoints.
I feel much less safe than I ever did before since my life and the lives of all U.S. citizens will be affected far more by the U.S. government and the laws and rules it imposes on its citizens than by all the terrorists in the world. I'd rather be able to travel where I wished and read whatever books I wished without the government tracking my every move than have a false sense of being protected by the occasional loon who is hell bent on loading a rental truck full of fertilizer and blowing it up in front of an IRS office. There will always be terrorism as sure as there will always be the human emotions of anger and hate, and it's asinine to erode civil liberties in the name of either.
Anyone who thinks U.S. citizen's civil liberties aren't being violated is either not a U.S. citizen, or they have a poster of Ashcroft on their bedroom ceiling.
Aside from the evidently perspicacious observations made by most here that the measures won't be terribly effective, and will certainly prevent freedom-lovin' tourists such as myself from crossing a U.S border, what about the risks associated with the expanding and increasingly cross-referenced network of databases (biometric and otherwise) that pervade modern society??
It seems to me that there are really good reasons why fingerprints have not, until now, been summarily taken from people at birth. One of those is civil liberties/preservation of individual dignity and individual volition etc, but one is pragmatic: a repository of such information can be abused, or used by criminals for some illicit purpose.
In the past, this would't have been much of a problem - but with biometrics imbedded in many common documents, and modern technology (say the ability to credibly 'put' someone's fingerprint on a gun) it's going to be.
Every police force and public service has corrupt elements or people with criminal tendencies, no matter how careful they are. The more data held by these sources, the more enticing it will be for terrorists or common criminals to find some way to utilise it. I don't think terrorists, perhaps because of their rather luddite backgrounds, have fully comprehended yet what damage they could wreak through attacks on the very electronic systems we are falling over ourselves to put in place for their benefit.
As the citizen of another country, however friendly, I have no rights AFAIK under U.S law with regards to the way my personal data is treated. Who is to say they won't sell or otherwise distribute that data? Who is to say they won't provide it to my own Government in circumvention of our own Laws? (Remember Echelon?)One can only imagine the ghastly scenarios of identity theft and the consequent tribulations endured by the luckless individual whose personal data has become the plaything of some criminal.
The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. -- Percy Bysshe Shelley
We were considering going to the US for my girlfriend's 21st birthday, as her family used to own a holiday house in Florida, but we've pretty much scrapped that idea now. If I'm bringing tourism money into a bloody country I'd expect not to be treated like a criminal. Also, it probably won't stop there, either, who knows what other crap they'll start making tourists go through.
If Bush gets re-elected, my bet is that he'll lower the land along the US/Canadian and US/Mexican border to build a moat.
phil
Solution: insult them and tell them they're all effectively criminals. Then they'll like us more!
Do you ever get the feeling that someone important just doesn't Get It?
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
I wonder if "government employees" also counts contractors? I know that during my time in the army (1992-96), lots of jobs were contracted out, both in the army and in the government as a whole.
If these contractors don't count, then the increase in the number of government employees is even larger under Clinton that it seems.
I can't in good concsience vote again for Bush. But I can't stomach Kerry either. Oregon is a close vote, so I don't know what to do. They say campaign idealistically, but vote pragmatically.
If you think about it, the fact that they are going to force everyone outside of North America, including the absolutely nonthreatening Japanese, it just means that it's a matter of time for us. Since Canadians and Mexicans make up the lions share of visitors to the USA, the requirements of the project go up an order of magnitude if you include Canada and Mexico.
As despicable as I personally find this scheme, it seems to be that they are rolling it out in a very reasonable way in order to scale the procedures and find bottlenecks before the excessive quantity of data comes in.
To rephrase: if they are going to deter the Japanese from visiting the US despite the impact that should have on the travel economy, they are fucking serious about tracking every person that comes into the US. Canadaians and Mexicans just get a delay, that's all...
501 Not Implemented
Sorry - I left out the link to UK ID card story.
The Government propaganda machine is working overtime.
Blair puts compulsory ID card on fast track for UK
Quote:
UK Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday made it clear that the government now feels it has sufficient public support to accelerate the introduction of compulsory ID cards. Speaking at his monthly press conference, he said that "we will need to readjust our terrorism laws still further. I have to say this to you, and I think that the whole issue of identity cards that a few years ago were not on anybody's agenda are very much on the political agenda here, probably more quickly even than we anticipated."
We live in a world that changed a few years back and one that will never be the same.
And why do you think this happened? Because terrorists do not like Mickey Mouse?
I am an independent/idealist who operates on common sense.
Then please, use that common sense.
We, as people in the US, are walking around daily as the biggest targets in the world.
Why not do something about it? Why not find out why you are hated so much by groups of people? Why not try and step into the shoes of a 16 year old palestine boy who had his brother killed simply because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time? Why not try and see how supporting a dictatorship (Cuba before Castro, Persia (Iran) when the Shah ruled there, Irak!!!) makes the people under that dictatorship view the US as a whole? Years and years of dirty tricks and interfering and meddling in other countries' are causing what you see now. Why not criticize your government and tell them to order the CIA to keep its nose out of other people's business?
I love my country and I love my life.
Why in that order? Why do you put your country before yourself or your loved ones? Do you know that 'training' people in pre-WW-II Germany to 'love' their country no matter what (Blut und Boden, blood and ground) let to the rise of nationalistic fascism?
(...) kill for twisted beliefs (...)
Sure. Whatever you do, do NOT try to understand the other side. Just call their believes 'twisted' and be done with it. Thats so much more easy than having to think about why the status quo is as it became.
They were bombed, the innocent died, and they came together as a nation.
The innocent died; yes, this is exactely what the terrorists want. In their eyes innocent people on 'their side' die every day, while the 'civilised' world actively supports their killers. They see no way out, except by terrorism. And as I see it, the spanish people did not come together as a nation, but they 'rewarded' their right wing government with a clear defeat in the elections, resulting in a left wing government.
I hope people can understand and Turn-about is fair play if they want to mug/print me.
Either you never read 1984, or you did not understand it fully. This is exactly what Bin Laden wants: he wants the people in the west to have to go through road blocks, random searches, an overall loss of personal freedom. Why, because in his eyes we then suffer the same as a lot of muslims under US-backed governments.
Extremism is a world wide infection that if we don't squash it then we are all doomed as are our freedoms.
Sure! Squash 'em all. Just like the ETA, they should be squashed! Yeah, that's what really works! Just squash em long enough, and they will stop. Know what? Spain has been trying to squash the ETA for > 35 years now. Guess they haven't tried long enough, ey? Same goes for the IRA; they are illegal since 1936. Yup, kill them all. Once the current generation of terrorists has been killed, there will not ever be a new generation of terrorists, no sir.
Please get me straight: I strongly dissapprove of terrorism; I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who kill or injure innocent people. There is however no way we are going to get rid of this by the kneejerk reactions seen in the US and some other countries. Trying to understand terrorists and seeing how and why they came to be terrorists in the first place might just be more useful than fighting them, because you simply cannot win. History has taught us that. Please, for the love of freedom, open your eyes and your mind; do not let yourself be brainwashed by power-hungry politicians and their media. You seem like an intelligent person, please use that intelligence to try and look further than what you are being shown.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
I recently went to the US for a job interview. At immigration, they asked me to justify why I was staying for only two days. As soon as I mentioned I was here for a job interview, I was taken to the police center where a couple of ex-convicts without appropriate visas were also waiting.
I had to wait 30 mins for a police officer to take me to a small room for questioning! He was concerned that I might be working illegally and reminded me of the visa procedures.
As a british citizen, I have never dealt with the police and usually never get stopped for anything. This was a first for me. I felt accused, unwelcomed, rejected and insulted.
Also, the skilled worker H1B visa have run out this year, which means I can't start working until November earliest. This means that I'll probably look for a job elsewhere. In my opinion this is a loss to the US, since they should try to attract highly educated people like myself (in all modesty of course ;) ).
My position is that it's no big deal either way. But I'm a big fan of rational decision-making because it tends to lead to better decisions.
;)
Well to make a rational decision you require good information so let me pass you a bit more.
This program generates an enormous amount of hostility towards the USA. The EU has just passed a resolution opposing giving passenger related information to the USA and this is represntative of the attitude here in Europe. People naturally and wisely resent giving others power over themselves. Especially when those others represent someone else's interests (such as the USA).
I think the hostility this creates is well worth considering as a factor in evaluating this measure.
Personally, I'm much less likely to go the USA again now on principle. There are also lots of luddite types (particularly the older ones) who do not want their eyeballs probed with LASERS!
Finally, consider that this will lead to the same measures against US citizens by countries other than Brazil.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
if they are acompanied by a complete brainscann to determine the intentions and motivations of the person scanned.
And why do you think this happened? Because terrorists do not like Mickey Mouse?
I think you missed my main point-I don't give a fuck what a terrorist says to justify his/her acts of terrorism.
I am an independent/idealist who operates on common sense.
Then please, use that common sense.
You should use your own advice.
love my country and I love my life.
Why in that order? Why do you put your country before yourself or your loved ones? Do you know that 'training' people in pre-WW-II Germany to 'love' their country no matter what (Blut und Boden, blood and ground) let to the rise of nationalistic fascism?
They weren't in order of importance. I think you're reading more into my thoughts than was meant to be.
(...) kill for twisted beliefs (...)
Sure. Whatever you do, do NOT try to understand the other side. Just call their believes 'twisted' and be done with it. Thats so much more easy than having to think about why the status quo is as it became.
Fuck excuse me for not giving a fuck about someone who murder INNOCENT people and has a reason for it. I don't give a shit. People who kill innocent people should follow the same fate! Tell you what the next time someone shoots, burns, mutilates someone from my country I'll just fly over and try to empathize, try to understand why they did it...then I'll shoot them in the head:) Man your reasoning is flawed and unrealistic. They don't care if you understand they want you dead. They want the world to be ISLAM-ONly or haven't you followed what's been said and why they do what they do?
Please get me straight: I strongly dissapprove of terrorism; I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who kill or injure innocent people. There is however no way we are going to get rid of this by the kneejerk reactions seen in the US and some other countries. Trying to understand terrorists and seeing how and why they came to be terrorists in the first place might just be more useful than fighting them, because you simply cannot win. History has taught us that. Please, for the love of freedom, open your eyes and your mind; do not let yourself be brainwashed by power-hungry politicians and their media. You seem like an intelligent person, please use that intelligence to try and look further than what you are being shown.
I am not brainwashed and I don't buy shit my government or any other government says. I think and for my own opinions. Independent thinker to the core. My eyes are wide open but I'm not going to live in fear or let terrorists slaughter innocent people no matter what their nationality is. You should open your eyes and understand they have one objective and that is convert the world to Islam. Just like the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off of the map and not live with them.
I know our governments mostly look after their own interests but that's their purpose and yes it sometimes is a terrible thing but no government is going to put another countries interest over their own.
I'm all for a discussion with groups not out to destroy mine or any others way of life but they wouldn't talk to us if we begged. They are the worst rascists on the planet. They want all of us dead or converted but we know they prefer dead. They have no value of life period. Pandering to them will only empower them. The only thing they understand is violence so that's what they'll get. In saying this I'm just pointing at the terrorist and not all Arabs, Muslims, etc. Not all are extremists and I know this to be true....I saw it on the discovery channel:)
Lastly we can try to understand all we want but it won't change the current state of affairs. I know we are trying to better things with the younger generations out there so hopefully our future will be brighter as well as theirs...
You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
"We want British people flying to the States to feel secure when they travel.
That is the best way to counter terrorism."
Yep, that's it - the best way to stop terrorism is to make us all feel nice and snug and safe.
And of course, the best way to do that is to treat us all like criminals.
Chuck Norris: Socialism == a thousand years of darkness.
The new Spanish leader thinks that by removing troops from the middleast his country will be safer. Well they found another bomb on the train tracks today. I hope he realizes that deals cannot be made.
And they also decided to double the number of troops they have in Afghanistan. You remember that one? The country the terrorist actually came from?
-John
The fact that the USA has a few hundred non citizens locked up with no access to the legal system is a much bigger issue then the USA wanting more solid id info on visitors. The first is a violation of human rights, the 2nd is an understandable tho futile attempt at keeping the wrong people out.
Interesting article at this link on the New Scientist website casting doubts on the reliability of finger printing as a way of proving identity.
Fingerprint link
What's the bet that the first Al-Queda terrorist arrested through matching fingerprints turns out to be an 80 year old nun from Canada?
So people who vote for a candidate that they believe in are bunch of ignorant fools? That you should only vote for someone who has reasonable chance of winning, preferably for a guy that you also conveniently choose to support?
Throwing away the vote is also a valid choice. If Kerry wants people to vote for him instead of Nader, then he has to convince them to vote for him for his vision and merits, not with this backhanded threat and insult. By the way, if this would make you feel better, I'm unfortunately (or fortunately) a Canadian citizen, so my views in this matter will not have any impact on the upcoming election.
Going back to the original question, do you really believe that if Kerry was to be elected, that he would scrap away the US-VISIT program and reduce the background checks for Visas and allow people to come in and out of America freely? For some reason, many people seems to have this image of Evil Bush(tm) sitting around with his crack team of war-mongering, privacy-breaching buddies to come up with MostAwesomeEvilPlanEver(tm)... Sorry to burst your bubble, but I really don't think that's the case.
Political parties, like any other organization, has to react to external stimulus. Even if Gore was president, programs like US-VISIT would still be implemented because of the events that preceded it...
You seem to be under the impression that secretive and trench-clad gestapo will be following foreigners around with goggles that identify fingerprints instantly and without any of that messy powder.
Finding fingerprints takes time and training, and fingerprint match searches take time and resources as well. If the government wanted to gather data that it could use against guests in our country there are more effective and less expensive things that could be done, such as smart cards that must be used when buying certain items or going to certain places.
And why do so many partake of the stigma that fingerprinti ng is onyl for criminals? Many parents have their children fingerprinted so that they can be identified, as do many that suffer from mental disorders or other medical conditions where they might not be able to identify themselves.
Also, if you lose your passport, you will more than likely be able to expediate the process of a replacement if your fingerprints can confirm your identity.
The tens of thousands of fingerprints that are taken are going to sit in the FBI datacenter along with all the rest. If someone searches for your prints, chances are that you are either a suspect or a victim. And if you are already a suspect, not having fingerprints on file isn't going to reduce suspicion.
I've travelled internationally quite a bit in the past few years and although I've yet to find a country with "pleasant" border control, the USA counts as the worst first-impression I've ever experienced.
You're warned that getting the slightest thing wrong on your declaration card will see you thrown into jail and the staff appear to have manners and an abrasive attitude that are certainly the worse than Australia, New Zealand, Singapore or the UK.
You can't help but get the overwhelming impression that, as a tourist, you're not so much welcomed as tollerated as a temporary visitor to the USA.
With all the new measures in place, and the presumption of guilt that accompanies them, I certainly wouldn't put the USA very high on my list of places to visit again.
Once you're through the airport it's a nice place and the people I met there were great -- but that border-control is a *real* turn-off.
Besides which, what's with LAX? I've never had to queue on the sidewalk to get to the check-in counter before -- it's crazy!
At least we don't lock away people and then deny them the right to counsel, visits or trial, and then claim that that's ok because they're sub-humans anyway.
Fourth Reich indeed.
Remember - half of the US voters voted for Gore
That is merely amusing trivia. Neither Bush nor Gore were going for a numeric majority. Both were going for an electoral college majority. You run campaigns quite differently depending on whether or not you are going for a numerical or an electoral college majority. The "Gore won" argument is not unlike a losing football team pointing out that they moved the ball a greater number of yards during the game. That is interesting and all but that was not the victory criteria agreed upon before the game.
It is also interesting to note that with the three way races the two Clinton/Gore victories had a minority of Americans voting for Clinton/Gore, a majority voted for the other guys. In short, Gore received a minority the two times he made it, a majority the one time he did not. Again, nothing more than amusing trivia.
You won't need to be fingerprinted when you go there, there is a significant amount of culture within 50km, and the food in the area is excellent.
You did mean Disneyland Paris, right?
I'm British, and in October this year someone enters the US with a faked copy of my passport. Their fingerprints and photo will be added to the database as me. Unaware of this, I then visit the US some time after. As soon as they take my fingerprints it is going to be flagged up that I've visited before and the fingerprints don't match. Imagine the hassle trying to prove you are who you say you are, and that the first person was the imposter. This just won't work unless other countries share information; as far as I know the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints, and even if they did, there is no plan to share it.
agains your now 1984 government, you are a terrorist and quicker dead or on camp x-ray than you can squeeze the trigger.
Or do you think you would have a chance against a swat team?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
That is pure myth. The only adminstration in the last 25 years to not run a deficit was Clinton ...
That "fact" has a bit of mythology embedded in it as well. The Republicans getting control of the House of Representative, the branch of government that actually controls spending, had something to do with it. Economic growth increasing tax revenues had something to do with it. Just as the economic downturn that started before Bush's term has something to due with decreasing tax revenues and the return of the deficit. Things are far more complex that you suggest and the president has far less control than you seem to believe.
The thing is the US always has to overdo/overreact.
There's a fundamental difference in the way Europe works and the way the US works. I still find it hard to believe 'you guys' (the US inhabitants) actually descended from former Europeans. Amazing how a few hundred years can alter the fundaments of a society so.
I try and keep close tabs on what is happening in Europe, but many of the things suggested don't seem to be nearly as drastic as what the USA is doing.
So, I'd welcome any clear evidence contrary, never is bad to stay informed according to different viewpoints...
Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai
And how exactly are fingerprints going to prevent such things?
Also let us not forget they would really be no worse off being home or being in iraq from a security viewpoing, the only differnce is that it isn't costing millions per day.
"In that particular instance that I linked to above, the choice given was stark: if you go to that country, follow the rules *they* impose on your visit, or don't go. Simple as that."
Indeed. I'm choosing the dont go alternative.
"It's not like fingerprinting you is really a big deal in itself, especially if you don't intend staying on in the US. However, the message that this sends out very clearly is that the country no longer welcomes visitors."
It's not really a big deal. Unfortunately, while I can vouch for myself not being in whatever databases the prints are run against, I cant vouch for the other several thousands of people with prints similar enough to mine to trigger a match.
Biometrics, while extremely good for small sample comparisons, absolutely suck for many-to-many comparisons.
So, while the print itself isnt a big deal, the chance of getting mistakenly identified as a criminal is. And as that chance falls into the range of better than one in a thousand, in my opinion it just isnt worth it to visit the US anymore. I'll take my class, workshop, tradeshow and tourist visits somewhere more welcoming.
How is that served by fingerprinting and photographing ? The INS already has a lookout system that uses your name, date of birth passport number etc. to search the watchlists.
A fingerprint and photograph is a far more reliable identification. Also keep in mind that the US is collecting a lot of fingerprints from terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, and at least one in Iraq. Like it or not, recent graduates of these camps may have a slighly more difficult time travelling.
) we need to do something to make ourselves safer
No, you have to do the right thing to make yourself safer. Doing just something will just give a false sense of security and is likely making things less safe as a result.
I am an old European. With policies like this I guarantee you that I will not visit US for holiday or business. I don't want to be treaten like a criminal.
However, what makes me more angry is that US politics destabilises the world and IMHO terrorism is a selfmade american product which all have to suffer from. Strange that US has been our best friends and now the distance between cultures feels much bigger to America as for example to our Turkish friends.
At least we don't lock away people and then deny them the right to counsel, visits or trial, and then claim that that's ok because they're sub-humans anyway.
What, you think that because you don't hear about this sort of thing, it isn't happening?
I'm not saying it *is* happening in Europe - I'm not paranoid - we just can't be sure that it isn't happening either. And in America they don't have identity cards, whereas in Europe they do.
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I think that it's well worth remembering that terrorism is still a very new concept to the Americans, whereas in Europe many countries have been living with it on a smaller scale for decades.
;-), and in general are going to be more trusting of the government because they don't have Europe's history.
And as you say, many Americans are very very good at overreacting (look at Slashdot
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At the airport, they simply check whether the photograph matches you and the name on your ticket. You don't have to show your ID card when crossing borders between different EU countries.
Now if they'd introduce RFID-type ID cards, that'd be another matter.
Donate free food here
I think you missed my main point-I don't give a fuck what a terrorist says to justify his/her acts of terrorism.
When you know what 'justification' a terrorist uses to kill innocent people, then maybe you understand that this and previous US governments have provided both wood and sparks to ignite this fire. US governments have shown in the past not to give a damn about people in other countries; US governments support whatever regime as they see best for their own plans. THAT feeds terrorism. If you want to put a stop to terrorism, take away its breeding ground: change US foregn policy.
Fuck excuse me for not giving a fuck about someone who murder INNOCENT people and has a reason for it. I don't give a shit.
Does this mean you are willing to let the reason a terrorist became a terrorist keep on existing? Kill one terririst, another will take its place, as long as that other thinks it's the only way. Take away the breeding ground for terrorism, and it will fade away.
People who kill innocent people should follow the same fate!
No, they should be put on trial in a court of law.
Tell you what the next time someone shoots, burns, mutilates someone from my country (...)
And here lies a mayor source of the problem. Why should it be limited to someone from your own country? Why not have the same feelings for a 14 year old palestine girl who was shot without reason? Or an old lady sitting in a bus in whatever Israelian city? Why do you not ask your government to put more pressure on Isreal to make peace, and not war?
They want the world to be ISLAM-ONly
Sure, some fundamentalists want that. Just as there are fundamentalist christian nutcases who want the whole world to be christian. Just like the US educational system wants to have all students swear an oth to some deity. The fact is, most muslims just want peacefull coexistance, as long as they may hold their own beliefs. Look into history: Spain was once occupied by the (muslim) Moors; under their reign christians as well as jews could openly have their own religion.
You should open your eyes and understand they have one objective and that is convert the world to Islam. Just like the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off of the map and not live with them.
Yeah, right. Most palestines just want to have freedom, food on the table, a house to live in, and decent education for their children; most of these things they do not have. The main reason they are opposed to Israel is because in their eyes Israel is keeping them from their basic human rights and needs, and I cannot blame them for that view.
I'm all for a discussion with groups not out to destroy mine or any others way of life but they wouldn't talk to us if we begged.
??? They tried and talked, but we did not listen. That pushed the extremists among them into terrorism.
They want all of us dead or converted but we know they prefer dead.
Nope, they just want to be left alone, in peace.
They have no value of life period.
And US governments do, right? You stated yourself: you want to put a bullet through the heads of terrorists. Ever thought that those terrorists looked at the US and thought: "Well, they are so peaceful, they have never illegally overthrown a democratic government they did not like, they never invaded another country the last 40 years, they have never lied to their own people."? Large groups of people around the world see the US as a bullying oppressor (even a large number of people in Europe see it that way). Change US government actions, and you'll change that view and take away the breeding ground of terrorism.
The only thing they understand is violence so that's what they'll get.
You did not react on my arguments that this did not help with the IRA, nor with the ETA. You simply repeat your mantra.
Lastly we can try to understand all we want but it w
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
"US == Evil ; Any EU nation == Can do no wrong"
That's probably because many EU countries (I'm thinking of the nordic ones and the Benelux) are fundamentally more decent and liberal than the US. Just because the UK (with it's dodgy un-written "constitution") has regressed, it doesn't mean that the rest of the EU member-states have.
For example many of us have civil codes that are built on fair, just and easily understood principles rather than arbitrary precedant, proportional representation that means that every member of the electorate's vote counts, and a respectful approach to the environment.
My supervisor simply refuses to attend any conferences in the States, and I feel similarly. Why go through the hassle?
It's a real damper for academia. Canada may well capitalise on this - the American academics don't have far to go.
(Particularly when you can get a week all-inclusive at a European sunspot conference for less than the flights to New York...)
The US is forcing all "Visa Waiver" countries to have biometric passports to stay in the programme. So this is a push by the US, and when was the last time Blair stood up to Bush, especially over things his control freak Home Secretary Blunkett wants anyway?
The amount of crap that is going to hit the fan when this becomes widely known around the world is directly proprtional to the amount of lost tourist and business income in the US as a result of this.
I wasn't planning on visiting the US in the near future and now I'm definitely not going to visit the US in the near future. I will NOT be treated like a criminal!
My take is that this bullshit has nothing to do with terrorists in any case. I think this is election year garnering of votes from the paranoid ultra conservatives in the US who see the rest of the world through blood red glasses of hatred and fear.
Why are we so willing to comprimise our rights?
Hey, I thought you guys had freedom of speech? If so, why is it that virtually no USA based media is reporting that an FBI insider, Sibel Edmonds, has said that the Bush administration knew about the 911 attacks before they happened. Apparently your government has used a law to stop this story in the press.
Freedom of speech indeed!
You say your not covered by their constitution because your not a citizen, but in Canada, it is a matter of law that our constitution and Charter of Rights applies to anyone on Canadian soil.
That's true, unless you have a security certificate issued against you. If you are a noncitizen you can be held indefinately without charge, lawyer, or right to see the evidenace against you - and you don't have to be shipped to Cuba. There are people working to change this, although I am not sure I disagree with the law.
..don't panic
This isn't going to happen, and in a first-past-the-post system you're wasting your vote if you don't vote for one of the 2 front-runners in your area.
This tendency for first-past-the-post systems to create 2-party systems is called Duverger's Law, and a common consequence of it is the spoiler effect. For example, in the last US presidential election Nader's candidacy "spoiled" the election for Gore, by taking away enough votes from Gore in many states to give Bush enough votes to win the electors in those states.
No matter how appealing a third candidate may be and how unappealing the 2 front-runners, you must vote for one of the 2 front-runners. Often this means voting against the front-runner you dislike most rather than voting for the front-runner you prefer.
If you think this situation sucks, campaign for proportional representation, where everyone's votes count.
The US offical said we are just closing a loop hole for visa wava countries. "At the moment, someone can just fly to a wava country and get a passport and get straight into the US without checking.". Just get a passport? Strangly enough they are pretty hard to get here, you don't get one at the airport with a Big Mac. You either trust countries or you don't if you don't trust our systems here in the EU (fair enough). Require visas for those countries.
James
PS I think gloves will be an important travel accessory in the future!
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
Everyone else knew this and yet you yanks still went ahead and invaded the place, thereby giving the Islamic fanatics yet another battle cry. Well done.
Next time, try actually making up your own minds instead of letting the garbage that passes for mass media in the US do it for you.
I'm not sure how this will prevent anything but hopefully it can.
Think of what you are saying. Of what you just said. You are putting your support behind this plan... why? You are not being rational. Fear, or something else that clouds your judgement, has taken control of your mind.
Really. Think about it. Let's say I'm trying to sell you a new computer. I say "I'm not really sure how buying this new comptuer will help you, but I hope it will." Would you buy it? Why or why not? And why is this fingerprinting situation any different?
...your country.
Please don't start with the "I have nothing to hide so what" comments, because they mean nothing. The fact that people are treated like a criminal before they ever committed a criminal offense is plain wrong. This, apart from the possibility that people are wrongfully accused.
I think the European parliament agrees, they didn't whistle Bolkestein (yes, the same person that loves software patents) back from his deal with the US for nothing.
Time will learn whether perhaps a mass drop in tourism and business-trips to the US will have an impact on this decision.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
The inhabitants of the US are worried about the state of the US. The inhabitants of Europe are worried about the state of the US. Which makes me wonder if there's anyone left to worry about the state of Europe!
Good point!
Here in the UK, the BBC is giving an enormous amount of coverage to the US presidential campaign, as if we have any say (or interest) in the outcome.
Personally, I wish they would forget all about it, wait until it's all over, then make the generic announcement which suffices whenever any other nation (including those in the EU) has a general election:
Today, the people of [insert name of foreign country] elected [insert name] as [insert title of head of state]. UN observers say the election process was fair/flawed [delete as applicable, and elaborate if necessary]. [Insert name of Prime Minister] telephoned Mr/Mrs [delete as applicable] [insert surname] to congratulate him/her [delete as applicable], and said that he hopes the UK and [insert name of foreign country] can work together on [insert vague reference to issue of mutual interest].
No, really, how many terrorist acts have been committed by Australians? We have like one dude at Gitmo bay (he was some arsehole who decided to leave his comfortable suburban family home in Adelaide to go get some adventure in Afghanistan) but other than that idiot, I can't think off-hand of any incident _ever_ where an Australian had even a remote connection to a terrorist act on foreign soil. So you are going to fingerprint and mugshot us? Do you realise how much safer Australians are on any scale, violent crime through to terrorism, than US citizens rate? Hell, we've never even had a civil war, and we got our independence when form 86B was lodged (in triplicate) at the appropriate parlimentary office in London. I would think that you'd want _more_ of us over there because it would _lower_ the average amount of violence and terrorism that you'd see. Instead, you want to fingerprint us! Go figure.
# grep slashdot access.log | grep html | sort | uniq | wc -l 2604
Sorry, but myself and friends here in Scotland have been talking about this a lot with regards to the Visa situation, etc. and it's plain and simple: we don't plan on visiting anymore, or at least until this current wave of paranoid nonsense stops
It's you guys I feel sorry for - your entire country is being branded as insane because of your government. In some ways we are suffering it in the UK as well, but in only a fraction of the extremety.
Same goes for the IRA; they are illegal since 1936
The IRA will be destroyed not by bombs or guns, but by words. N.Ireland is a vasty safer place today because people who hate eachother sit at tables and try to work things out. They rarly do work things out, but they keep trying. It's helped largly by the British and Irish governments who keep nudging them towards the table.
It saddens me greatly to then see the British government jump at the chance to bomb a country because another foreign country is attacked. They of all people should know better.
I disagree - I find Europeans much more trusting of government than Americans. For example, most Europeans couldn't care less about CCTV. Certainly in the UK, we're fairly trusting because the Civil Service is fully independant of government. And if their political masters start pissing them off, then they find a way to get rid of them (as one minister found out this week!)
Excuse me?
We foreigners are lucky because we live abroad. If you think you've got civil liberties over there, perhaps you should read up on the civil liberties you (allegedly) had a hundred years ago.
You've got nothing.
Are you sure about that ?
Maybe the papers don't mention what happens at the EU level a lot (mine doesn't at least), but read statewatch a bit and see what we'll get in the EU. It ain't pretty.
lol i don't think they use md5! its more like a specialised code that picks out certain features and generates more of a geek-code style hash, to get a match you have to have a certain number of similarities, if theres a smudge or you cut your finger it would still be able to make a match. What happens if you have no fingers or you have an accident and have to wear a plaster? Ofcourse all this means jack shit since someone important enough to be a known terrorist will just send someone else to do their bidding - someone who has never been to the US! I just wonder if the crack smoking idiots who came up with this actually have another hidden agenda or if they are just really really dumb.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A terrorist could come from Australia, or the UK, or even the US.
Then why don't you start by fingerprinting your own damned population?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Well, the US taking my Canadian fingerprints will do nothing to expedite my next passport, whether it's lost, stolen or expired. It won't help Germans, Britons or anyone else on the list either.
I am also not against the collection of finger prints per se. As you rightly point out it has it's place. But when was the last time your were both finger printed and photographed at the same time? Where does that happen routinely? Oh yes, at any police station in the world after you have been arrested. That's why this carries the stigma. That's why US citizens that are being subjected to this exact same treatment in places like Brazil are quite upset by it - a few airline pilots have been fined for 'flipping the bird' while having their picture taken.
Why don't they just put up and shut up? I'm sure the Brazillians won't miss-use the information...
Of course, my main point that this measure is supposedly put in place to increase the security of Americans, so the insult and hassle to foriegn visitors is worth it, right? Well, if you read what many security experts have stated (including Bruce Schneier) this is not the case. The US government will waste millions of dollars that could be better spent elsewhere hassling, alienating and insulting millions of visitors that are actually allies.
And you won't be any more secure.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I'm not saying it *is* happening in Europe
That stuff is happening in Britain; the government passed a law specifically to suspend parts of the Human Rights Act so that foreign terrorist suspects could be kept in prison without trial. British citizens still have to have a trial eventually, but even they can be held for weeks without trial.
I plan to leave the country as soon as possible.
A latent existence
the US will have to decide how much measures of this kind will cost in lost revenue and if these policies are worth this cost (loss of revenue from tourism, international business etc.).
Personally, I've lately decided to do my utmost in trying to avoid setting my foot in the US due to the behaviour of the US government vs. visitors. Travelling to or through the US is simply too much of a hassle nowadays. Delays and lack of respect for the privacy of the traveller are found to be unacceptable by more and more travellers.
I know of several colleagues who are now refusing to go to the US on business.
Its really pathetic to see the US complaining about reduced tourism, troubled airlines etc. when this clearly is the result of a concious choice.
And to think that I was close to move to the US a few years back.. I'm so glad I chose to live in a different jurisdiction since I see the massive drawbacks of being a US citizen/resident everyday in my job (I work in private banking).
First, hello to everyone, first time poster, long time luker. :)
Second - there's no marginalization taking place, only a method of keeping track of who enters and exits our country ...
People hear fingerprinting and "mugshots" (it's a photograph guys, relax) and immediately associate it with prisons. Well, they're not being put into prisons, they're allowed to freely roam on our soil and are protected by all of the rights of citizens for as long as they are on this soil.
However, if they break the law, we now can indentify them quicker than we could have previously, simply because we have instituted a couple of old-school tracking manuevers... nothing hi-tech about ones fingerprints, and we're not attaching a GPS sensor to thier ankles.
The one problem I have with this is that we're not doing it across the board - Mexico for some reason is exempt from this type of scrutiny.
Clinton reduced the percentage working for the government. Bush increased it again. If you want to vote for someone who supports a small government, vote for a Democrat.
bring it on! --- JFK
Practically all of the terrorists came from Saudi-Arabia.
Well, you may not want to vist the U.S., and I also wouldn't recommend a holiday in Iraq. Say you wanted to go andsee the results of all our hospital an school rebuilding efforts. I hear they are thanking people by setting them on fire and dragging them through the streets (did the rest of the world get these horrible images in the news? dear God.) Countries just aren't treating their visitors like they used to....
bravo!
You'll be grateful if it keeps one of the nut jobs with bombs in their backpacks off the
bus/train your're riding on when you visit
Do you really think that someone who is prepared to die to kill people will care if the government knows their identity? I'm sure it's really usefull when clearing up the bodies to know who did it.
A latent existence
"Expedient Homemade Firearms : The 9mm Submachine Gun"
3 4/
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Good post, I'd mod you up if I had the points.
Especially the Spanish thing. I heard where the attacks are reshaping their entire government, and it is not into a position to defend Spain- the new government will be designed to appease terrorists. You're so right, it doesn't end there. It won't end until everyone is Spain is either a pile of ash or they are praying 5 times a day and volunteering their lives to go around the world killing innocent people. That is the only way Bin Laden would be happy. Once you give up every last shred of western ideology, then you're safe. Quit working, quit achieving, quit buying things, quit wearing blue jeans, quit listening to Rock and Roll, and if you're a young lady, quit exposing your body in public.
I can't believe the Spanish are making these decisions. You can't reason with the irrational. And anybody who tells you terrorists are just like us and can be dealt with is sick in the head.
Nice try, but you'll be ignored. The parent of this thread is +5, Insightful. No one here really cares about the truth, they just want to bash America or Bush or both.
3cx.org - A truly bad website.
Consider the Iraqis at the moment. They have weak weapons and they're constantly getting caught, but they're successfully making a geunine nuisance of themselves.
Unwanted military rule can continue while those who oppose it have guns, but it can't ever settle down into smug "business as usual".
Well, good bye, America.
I lived for two years in California: San Francisco! Great town, although the masses of home- and helpless people in the streets disturbed me a lot.
For a while I thought that I'd go visiting again after this nut has been kicked from the white house.
I watched in irritation as things rapidly got worse. Mind you, living outside the USA you can see a *lot* more things turning bad inside the united states.
But now this.
You think I will allow anyone to take (and keep!) my fingerprints just for fun? Store them together with my full data and photo?
On a lower level, you think I'd be willing to wait in line while immigrations do this to a fully-loaded 747-400?
Bye, USA. It was a nice time (I loved your '68 Mustangs), but the world is large enough even for a traveller like me not to need you.
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
As someone else mentioned, the UK has the Data Protection Act (DPA).
The DPA basically states that I can ask any public or private institution for any information they have on me, and they have to give it. With exceptions, if I recall, relating to police investigation and national security.
The DPA also limits what people can do with that information. No passing it on to third parties without permission. No processing the information if I don't want them to. Interesting little things like that.
The UK does have a lot of cameras, but there are also a lot of safeguards. Even if the US had those safeguards, I'm not a US citizen, so I couldn't require them to do anything about it.
*** Anyone who does not vote for the Conservative Party is an enemy of The Dominion of Canada ***
Uh, no dude. You just don't get away with spouting that kind of crap north of the border, but Canada does have some serious security concerns. The Liberals don't like militaries so they've been dismantling ours. The NDP could care less about the military and gives tax monies to refugees and the poor and couldn't give a damn about deficits. And the mindset from both parties is 'why worry? Nothing will happen and if something happens, we couldn't do a damn thing about it and the Americans will bail us out anyway.'
We've been told that we're harbouring terrorists, we're an ideal country for raising funds for various terrorist organizations, and our passports are well liked by terrorists, and we don't do a damn thing about it because everyone here is ruled by the law of inertia.
This is security by obscurity and it makes me as nervous as all hell.
Besides, the most Conservative of Canadians would be called a Democrat if they lived in the USA. Think of Liberals/NDP'rs as the most radical left-wingers of US Democrats.
> one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country.
I used to visit the excited snakes on a regular basis, both for tourism purposes and to purchase Big Iron. After my last trip (Jul 2002) resulted in an *enormous* hassle by US Customs, I'm really not keen in spending any more money down there. Haven't been back yet, may not ever be.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
What is your source of info?
I agree that computerized biometric systems are easily fooled (see the Gelatin Professor), fingerprint databases have been used extensively and successfully for quite some time.
It's rather sad you all think so badly of the US; it really isn't that bad of a place.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
I'm an Australian working, short term, in the US. I refused to have my fingerprints and photo "optionally" taken when I entered the country in January - now I'm forced to have them taken when I will leave the US? Makes sense to me; not.
You make some very good points, I just wanted to comment on one thing:
>Look into history: Spain was once occupied by the (muslim) Moors; under their reign christians as well as jews could openly have their own religion.
Under the Moors, the Jews were allowed practice of their religion and so forth. Under the Christians, we had the Spanish Inquision, and mass slaughter of Jews. If we're going for interolerance, in this case the Christians come out quite far ahead. Of course, there are examples to the contrary as well.
Lea
Rule Number Two: There are no exceptions to Rule Number One.
Your analytical system is deeply flawed. Recent and historical events suggest a far more nuanced Rule System. Do you normally tend to ignore all available data when constructing your theorems?
===---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
To be fair, there's a lot of internal scrutiny, too. And Europe (and every other set of countries) has its own, similar problems. We're working on ours just like your working on yours.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
I really don't blame anyone for not wanting to come here. When visiting other countries the worst part of the trip was coming home through US Customs. It was bad before 9-11 and that was for US citizens.
It does feel more right wing and intrusive lately. I love my country, but I'm really concerned by the spread of quasi-religious angry dogmatism of the right. We're losing the image of the US being the greatest place in the world to live. More people are now thinking, "Whew, glad I don't live there." And for many here the American dream has gone from a house in the country to a house in another country.
We were seriously thinking about moving to NZ before 9-11. The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said, "If you don't like it, get out." It reminded me to get my application of interest ready.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I got a 128M biometric USB Flash Drive at www.imagenix.com for only $119 and it uses my fingerprint to let me access my data. I suppose the government uses similar technology. But somehow I have the feeling they are paying the equivalent of $119,000 for each USB Flash drive, and that instead of buying them from www.imagenix.com the are buying from Halliburton ?
That stuff is happening in Britain; the government passed a law specifically to suspend parts of the Human Rights Act so that foreign terrorist suspects could be kept in prison without trial
Ah, but they can choose to leave the country at any time - they're only held if they choose to remain the UK.
Not that I necessarily agree with this policy.
I plan to leave the country as soon as possible.
Me too. Any ideas for a destination?
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So people who vote for a candidate that they believe in are bunch of ignorant fools?
I have no idea why you're responding to my post with this. My point was that the two parties are not the same. How do you extrapolate the above from what I wrote?
if the fingerprint (or retina scan) info
is stored only while the visitor is in the US
territory and deleted when he/she leaves I
think it would be OK. The visitor needs to be
informed of these practices before taking
the plane (or even before paying the ticket)
so there will not be a waste of time/money if
he/she does not agree with them.
"That is pure myth. The only adminstration in the last 25 years to not run a deficit was Clinton."
That is pure myth. The US national debt increased _every year_ while Clinton was president: he never once had a real, actual, budget surplus.
I know this is flamebait, but fuck off.
... every other nation is in the same boat as the US.
The only real country that is at war with Islamic fundamentalists is Isreal
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
With countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iraq, I think a case can be made that people in these countries want to be left alone, but hardly in "peace". The "terrorists" coming from these countries have no interest in peace or justice; I duspute your characterization that they do.
The kind of extremism that made Afghanistan the most primitive and backwards nation on earth is the same thing Al Qaeda is is fighting for. Please do not assume these people are altruistic!
I do not want to "Understand" that kind of fucked -up thinking. As you say, I am interested in changing US foreign policy to avoid pissing them off, but who knows what pisses off crazy people, when you get down to it. Tomorrow it can change.
I can't help thinking...If Al Qaeda is attacking us for our support of the house of Saud in Saudi Arabia, why haven't they been focusing on replacing the house of Saud? They are more interested in getting the USA out of the middle east, which basically makes them just racist.
Until it probably gets over-turned on appeal MS police have the right to enter your property without a warrant for a "safety inspection." That just makes it easier to track down people breaking the law, right? So what's the big deal. It's not like they're knocking down your door.
Freedom doesn't get stripped away in one big blast, it gets peeled away like layers in an onion. And at every layer there's someone like you saying, "We're just protecting ourselves."
It's not the size of the intrusion, it's the mentality it represents.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
There are multiple sources, read up on for example: this one.. There we're talking error rates in the percentages.
Like I said, biometrics work very well when you have few-few datasets like employees trying to get into a workplace with a database of a few thousands. Or ten suspects and one fingerprint. Or even ten suspects and a 100K database of prints.
It's when you have a 100K database of fingerprints and compare to millions of passengers that the laws of statistics play havoc with your accuracy rates. You dont even have to fool the systems, the builtin failure rate will cause huge numbers of false positives, and as the databases expand it will only get worse.
I dont think badly about the US; having lived there for an extended period, and visited many times and having many american friends I rather like it. I may not like the current direction of the country, nor the actions of the current administration, but that's not the country itself, and most definitely not the people.
But with this, when the chance to get detained, jailed, expelled, or whatever when you get misidentified is in the range of single digit percentages, the risk simply isnt worth it. While I hope the security people would go to some length to verify you're not who the system says you are, I wont depend on that. With the rates they say they're getting of 'people travelling under false identities' I'm wondering if they're always bothering to check. False identity or false positive?
The politicians have been sold snake oil by the biometrics industry. And innocent travellers will be paying the price for that.
I'll prefer not to take my chances. I'm saddened that that may mean I cant visit the US for a long time (until the requirement is removed or biometrics improve to the point that the chance gets significantly better, which will take decades). But there's not much I can do about it.
Follow the money. It's *always* the giveaway.
The "terrorists" coming from these countries have no interest in peace or justice; I duspute your characterization that they do.
Then what _do_ they want?
The kind of extremism that made Afghanistan the most primitive and backwards nation on earth is the same thing Al Qaeda is is fighting for.
Please have a look at the history of Afghanistan: it has been a fighting ground for decennia. Deprive a people of peace, hope, prosperity and education, and they will become primitive and backwards. Al Qaeda is, in its twisted way, 'fighting' to bring peace, hope, etc. to 'its' people.
Please do not assume these people are altruistic!
I certainly don't see them as altuistic, but they see themselves that way. The are fighting against 'the oppressors of muslims', which is a good thing according to the koran.
I do not want to "Understand" that kind of fucked -up thinking.
I do; it helps to see what one might do against it.
As you say, I am interested in changing US foreign policy to avoid pissing them off, but who knows what pisses off crazy people, when you get down to it.
That is certainly a good start, but if you understand how someone thinks, you will not piss them off very quickly if you do not want to.
I can't help thinking...If Al Qaeda is attacking us for our support of the house of Saud in Saudi Arabia, why haven't they been focusing on replacing the house of Saud? They are more interested in getting the USA out of the middle east, which basically makes them just racist.
AFAIK Al Qaeda is opposing the Saudi government, albeit not through attacks (yet). Flying a Saudi plain into some Saudi flat will likely kill a lot of muslims that they want to 'liberate'. And the members of the house of Saud themselves are well protected.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
Actually, having thought further about it, the same systems that were being discussed with the Gelatin Professor are likely to be used in airports as well. Dumb.
Thanks for the article. Very informative.
Ah. Good to hear that you like the people and the place itself. There seem to be an awful lot of people out there who just blindly hate the US and hold us to be gun-toting Neanderthals.
That said, keep up the informative discussion and we'll see what we US citizens can do to fix the direction we're headed, 'cause lots of us don't like it much either.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
No, just idiots.
I agree totally. Prentending you have allies, and then treating their citizens as criminals...
I know french people are already seen as supporting terrorists by some US people, but this goes definitively too far. I always thought I would visit the states one day, but for as long as this crap goes on I'll certainly not go : There are sufficient interesting places in the world to visit without me being considered as a criminal right at the arrival !
One of those Europeans...
Crap...I better take that poster down before someone who reads Slashdot recognizes the post and mods me down.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
The question of "national ID", which Americans tend to reject, becomes moot by itself -- the fingerprint becomes the perfect ID. Nature (God?) issued, hard to modify and impossible to fake...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Please, for the sake of the country, for the sake the world that it currently dominates, don't make the same mistake again.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Hey, I couldn't even APPLY for a job in Australia (seek.com) without someone willing to hire me to begin with, so don't throw stones.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
People still go there? Hmm.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
The new Spanish leader thinks that by removing troops from the middleast his country will be safer. Well they found another bomb on the train tracks today. I hope he realizes that deals cannot be made.
As a spaniard who didn't vote this guy (Mr Zapatero), I can assure you that he hasn't said that removing the troops will turn our country safer. He said, months in advance of the attack, that he was going to withdraw the troops if the UN wasnt in charge in Iraq. Your argument is used by (assuming you`re from the US) your government to put pressure on ours, knowing that most people wouldnt know his position (which was an electoral promise).
Radical people (not just terrorists) do not listen to reason. Trying to work out a deal peacefully with a terrorist is not possible. If a person does believe it is possible I'll allow them to go over there and work things out. I'm sure they will be successful.
First, the link between Iraq and terrorism has been proven at most doubtful. Second, he has never said that he was going to try to make a deal with them.
Now we can discuss if putting UN in charge is a good idea or not, if Zapatero will be a good president or not, etc. But based on facts, not outright lies from your extreme wing.
Think about this for a minute, how many times has the US been invaded by a foriegn power ? Those that did were promptly shot up by the general population. If youve never had to use a gun I suggest you have 0 point of refrence. I have and without one I wouldnt be typing this post, Im sure people whose lives were saved by airbags feel the same way. The point of owning a gun isnt a simgle person standing up to what THEY percive as injustice, its a collective effort. If the US goverment said tommorow, for example ALL (insert somethign here) must do (insert somethign distastefull here) , Whats to stop them form doing absolutley anything they want ? Well Ill tell you as many guns in this country as people. If it gets to the point of an actually shooting conflict weve got one hell of a lot of problems.
Like the Ku Klux Klan stringing up black people for not realizing their place, Al Qaeda is fighting for the "peace" and prosperity of a select few at the expense of many. The number of people that Al Qaeda wish to deprive of basic human rights as part of their belief system far outnumbers the people who benefit.
When I said I did not want to understand them, I meant that I never want to be the kind of person who believes in such ideals. Not all ideals are equal in merit.
Lastly, I misspoke. I meant to say Al Qaeda's type of extremism was keeping Afghanistan in its current state. Again, the type of values that the Taliban kept in good company with their "honored guests" Al Qaeda are not the kinds that I am willing to promote as equal to anything that's in the UN human rights charter.
To say that Al Qaeda is interested in "freedom" or "peace" is a semantic flaw. Their definition of these terms are incompatible with the western world's at all.
New York doesn't. They do require your SS number though which to the tinfoil hat crowd makes it a national id card.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Ah yes, but will England still be as free and open after they are finally dragged (kicking and screaming probably?) into the orbit of the EU? The EU will destroy everything unique about the British legal system and culture. Hopefully they don't get sucked in but I don't have a whole lot of faith anymore.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Okay, so you'll do something that by your own admission will have no effect. This somehow makes you feel better about yourself I guess.
It's great that fingerprinting everyone entering the US will make you feel better. But there are so many bad ramifications to this idea, it's not worth it to carry out this plan just to make you feel better.
The parent is so wrong, naive, and misinformed that it explains how somebody like Bush and his cronies can get away with whatever they want, as long as poor squimish people give away the most precious rights in the expectation to have some security.
.. sheep. What a conincidence.
The US are not damned for not doing. They are damned because they never keep to their own business. Your country has systematically and methodically humilliated most countries in the last 200 years than any other country in the history of humanity.
Your country supported murderers and dictators while pretending to be a beacon of democracy and freedom, tried to put down legitimate liberation movements against horrendous dictators. Legitimate goverments in many countries have been overthrown because the commercial or poitical interests of the US have been touched. The US does not understand the meaning of the word dimplomacy and that is why are completely incapable of being a good faith partner for peace in the Middle East.
The US could have chosen to pursue its interests while at the same time respecting leaders that deserved respect (like Salvador Allende in Chile) and could have promoted friendly goverments that would have upheld fundamental democratic values.
Although the US has done good things like WWII or Bosnia, it has always been reluctantly and only when there was not escaping to do it. One wonders if Pearl Harbour had not happened if the US would have cared much about the final outcome of WW2...
People with twisted ideologies are everywhere, maybe your neighbour is one of them. What are you going to do? Are you going to become an informant? Is everybody going to watch for others and then denounce the terrorists to the glorious Homeland Office? Is everybody going to be tagged, photographed and fingerprinted? Can't you see the damned slippery slope? Nooo, it is the damn foreigners only, it is OK if theyr are treated with disrespect, it will never happes to US good US citizens.
In case you don't know, that has already been tried. East Germany comes to mind.
Such fear of the unknown and acting based on fear and paranoia is completely incompatible with democracy and freedom. If from now on the price we have to pay to be free is a perpetual threat, so be it. I say this as a Londoner that is far more at risk every single day going through Central London to my work (and if you knew where I work you would pity me since the building oposite is the ultimate terrorist target) than most US people will ever be.
Well, I am ready to take the risk to take the commuting train every day, as did and do the brave people in Madrid, and I will never accept these childish measures that do not bring any security and erode our most basic freedoms.
The most damining indictment about this false sense of security is given on this sentence from the parent comment:
"I'm not sure how this will prevent anything but hopefully it can"
So you give away principles so precious that people have died for them for bascially very precious nothing. Well, you and your conationals deserve what you are going to get if you continue spousing this mentality which reminds me a herd of scared sheep but not a group of free people.
And your lecture of Spain could not be more mistaken:
"The people of Spain actually made gave the terrorists a political place as the terrorist's act enabled a complete change in government ideology."
No,no,no.
The preople in Spain, the wise people in Spain, kicked out of power a goverment that went through the most egregiou twisiting of the facts in order to pursue its political agenda.
The goverment in Sapin, in place of facing the threat of terrorism with facts, transparecny and honesty towards the people, decided that the people required to be herded. Like... er
The goverment in Spain used all its influence and means to lie to the Spanish people, they not only called all Spanish embassies to order dimploma
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Like it or not, the world is not a safe place these days
Was the world ever a safe place?
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
> the food in the area is excellent.
BULLSHIT!! I have never eaten a decent meal in France and have certainly been treated like shit because I don't speak their insignificant language.
BTW I'm european
Driver license pictures are not part of the database...from what I've read.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
(...) Al Qaeda is fighting for the "peace" and prosperity of a select few at the expense of many (...)
Bingo! I take it you mean the Al Qaeda _leadership_. The leadership of such 'organisations' are likely to be the most extreme. The mass of followers are likely mislead and (ab)used by the leadership, which brings us to my original point: the US should change it foreign policy, force Israel to make peace with Palestine; this will take away the power the extremists have over the masses.
To say that Al Qaeda is interested in "freedom" or "peace" is a semantic flaw. Their definition of these terms are incompatible with the western world's at all.
If we were to meet face to face we would probably end up argreeing with each other for 99% about this subject. Al Qaeda, like (almost) all extremist movements, is abusing words to manipulate followers. I used these terms as a sort of devils advocate.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
For the political geeks still reading here are the actual numbers:
l _college/
Compiled from http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electora
2000
Bush 50,456,062 49.73%
Gore 50,996,582 50.27%
1996
Clinton 45,590,703 49.95%
Dole+Perot 45,682,591 50.05%
Dole 37,816,307 41.43%
Perot 7,866,284 08.62%
1992
Clinton 44,908,254 43.28%
Bush+Perot 58,843,408 56.72%
Bush 39,102,343 37.69%
Perot 19,741,065 19.03%
You can have the most powerful army in the world and still be defeated by someone with talent who has read and understood Sun Tsu.
It seems that Al-Qaeda have, and that the US government hasn't.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
> AS long as terrorists are convinced the
> pullout was a direct result of the attack
This really had nothing to do with the terrorists and everything with Bush. This was ALL about sending a message to Bush, that things are going to be different from now on, and that the "coalition of the willing" can be considered history. It is unfortunate that Al Quaida can interpret the withdrawal as giving in to terrorism, but Spain really doesn't have all that many options for sending a strong message to Washington. What else can they do--tell Bush that he's not welcome at Club Med anymore? Pulling back the troops is the only message a subtlety-agnostic George "I don't do nuance" Bush understands. Removing the false impressions this creates for the terrorists can be countered in various other ways, such as a much stronger and publicly visible engagement in European and homeland security.
Look. Go read The Art of War. 2,500 years old and it's just as applicable today.
http://www.gutenberg.net/etext94/sunzu10.txt
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
You seem to have all the answers to the wrong questions. You ask us to review why we are so hated but fail to question why we are so loved. The world is concentrating right now on a piece of real estate that represents less than 2% of the total globe and for different reasons...oil, power, strategic availability..whatever. Why do you think that is? ALL governments have an agenda to gain more and at an efficient rate and obtain as much as they can when they can. Outside of that it's just semantics. You seem like an intelligent person, please use that intelligence to try and look further than what you are being shown.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
yes, that sounds like it might have been it. You had to be there, it was totally weird. Georgia appears to be a testing ground for new big brother technologies, first state to have all computerised voting (result, biggest upset since the civil war, results nothing like pre or post polling, hmmm), I think first state with fingerprint drivers license, first state to take illegals "matricular" cards as valid ID -which is a defacto amnesty, yada yada. Nice state, bizarro government.
just check your wallet, it has a private banks debt "notes" which has turned into the official money, clearly unconstitutional. Various restrictions on freedom of speech (microbroadcasting and the FCC for example)(Bush goons making protesters stay in a "free speech" corral miles from where he is speaking is another) and of religion (501-c restrictions when it says NO LAW in the first). Taxes which are illegal, which aren't excise taxes. No balance of laws between the states. Confiscation or "arrest" of property without a conviction of any crime. Random "courtesy checkpoints". The government taking private property without compensation (see klamath falls fiasco and others, and the abuse of local governments with eminent domain sezures). Complete and total disregard for the second amendment except in vermont, and then only partially constitutional. Giving personhood with "rights" to corporations. Freedom to be secure in your home and possessions, new orleans court just poofed that. On and on. We have an illusion of born-with rights, which the first ten amendments being merely a listing of them, they were NEVER "government granted", we are supposedly *born* with them, now they are all infested with laws.
The rule of thumb is, if the government says you need "a permit" that means you are applying for "permission". If it's a born-with right, you don't need their permission, it's not theirs to take away or grant. but they DO it anyway, and their enforrces with guns violate their oaths and "follow orders" and make it so, both civil and military.
On and on and on
.. really, many fine people have served honorably. However, the military are being abused now, and being put into a no-win situation by this slow moving stealth coup d'etat that has been building ever since the second world war.
If you aren't familiar with him or his organization, I encourage you to check it out. Jack McLamb with his Aid and Abet org. He has an org for active or retired police and military, and has some very interesting viewpoints you might like to hear about. There's so much I just made a google link for it.
He has a newsletter and is on various radio stations. I've spoken to him in person and listened to him being interviewed many times, quite enlightening.
You ask us to review why we are so hated but fail to question why we are so loved.
Certainly not for your foreign policies, maybe for pop culture? Those terrorist attacks have not occurred because the US is so loved, so your argument is moot. If you want to know why these terrorists are targetting the US you need to understand why they have their reasons to hate you. Is that so hard to grasp?
ALL governments have an agenda to gain more and at an efficient rate and obtain as much as they can when they can.
Yup, and that's why Portugal was admitted to the EU, because they were so rich and would pay lots of taxes to Brussels. And also why Estland, Letland, Lithouania, Poland, Slovenia and others are being addmitted into the EU right now, because the other countries can rob them of all their resources. NOT! Admitting those new member countries will cost the 'old' member countries loads of cash. We're trying to make the world a better place here. Please do not confuse US foreign policy with the foreign policies of EU member states. In the future (and no, that is not next year, but probably > 10 years from now) this will prove to turn out for the best for all european citizens, and hopefully for all people in the world. So, no, not all governments are out to obtain as much as they can. The US governments certainly seem to operate in that way.
You seem like an intelligent person, please use that intelligence to try and look further than what you are being shown.
Lets see: I give lots of arguments, you wipe them away with an unfounded "answers to wrong questions", you fail to make any point at all and then use my own quote against me, again without any substance to support the use of that quote?
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
The next thing will be inter-state passport control in the USA. Laugh now, but just wait a year or two. Reminds me of the old soviet union when tourists were routinely followed...
rd
The world is a complex place. It has billions of individual people, each with their own hopes, needs, desires -- and with their own situation, mostly created by others. Simplifying it down to 192 or so different countries is bad enough, but dividing it only into America and The Rest Of The World is ludicrously short-sighted as well as hideously unbalanced and dangerously naive.
Of course we must think of our own interests, but we must also be aware of our place in the world -- not spend half the time pretending it doesn't exist, and the other half expecting it to do our bidding (or be conquered). (And don't get me started on your views about terrorism...)
These discussions often remind me of a school playground, full of kids of different sizes and abilities. Is it right for the biggest, strongest kid to bully many of the smaller kids? And then sulk when someone complains?
To put it bluntly... We don't hate you because you're big, or rich, or powerful, or have particular economic or social or organisational structures and freedoms. In fact, there are probably far, far fewer who hate you than you think; but those who hate you do so because of your attitude : because you seem to think your size, and money, and power, and might somehow make you better than everyone else -- and give you the right to impose your own standards, rules, and interests on us.
Let me give just two small examples. (You can probably find arguments against them, but that's not the point; they illustrate your country's attitude.) First, you've made particularly strong restrictions on what you can do with copyrighted and/or encrypted material. Fine, that's your prerogative. But is it right to expect other countries to have to implement similar restrictions against their will? Or for you to force them to do so by threatening to withhold trade agreements and take other punitive measures? Or is that the act of a bully?
And second, the recent banning of an Iraqi newspaper, by a country that claims to value democracy and freedom of speech. Maybe the paper did 'incite violence' and 'mislead its readers'. But it's not democracy if another country has the power of veto, and it's not freedom of speech if it only covers things someone else wants to hear.
Your military and economic might, high standard of living, and the other things you're proud of, should inspire you to set an example to other countries. Please don't let that example be 'Power corrupts'.
____________________
I'm sorry; this post has turned out to be angrier (and longer) than I intended. I mean nothing against you personally; I just felt that your points needed replying to. That it might help to hear from a different viewpoint. Not necessarily a better one, just one whose biases and areas of ignorance are different.
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
Unfortunately in today's society there is a third group mucking around, business.
The topic at hand is "US Expands Fingerprint and Mugshot Program for Visitors". Businesses aren't doing this. Businesses CANNOT do this! For example, you want into Macy's and the manager stops you to get your fingerprints, you can say "screw that" and walk out. But do that at customs and you're thrown in jail. Business cannot make you do anything if you don't want to.
Let's look at big business, and use Microsoft as an example. I'm posting this with Konqueror running in FreeBSD. I have absolutely no fear that Microsoft will retaliate. There is nothing they can do to force me use Windows if I don't want to. They have zero power over me, despite the Slashdot wailing that the the DoJ did nothing to reign them in.
Government has armies, navies and police forces. The have a monopoly on the creation and enforcement of law. This power is far, far vaster than any "power" you might ascribe to business. While it is true that some businesses lobby for laws in their favor, it's only because government wields such enormous power that they even bother lobbying in the first place.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Thing is, he wasn't an arab, so they didn't pass all these nasty laws to deal with terrorism back then, because it would have been too obvious to realize that the ultimate victims of these laws are going to be the average US citizen, not some vague foreigh 'they'.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Hackers Claim New Fingerprint Biometric Attack
How To Fake Fingerprints
Doubt cast on fingerprint security
Open Standards Portal
America - The Land of the Free
-ish
Seriously. I live in the UK. I would think twice about coming to the US now. I mean, don't get me wrong, Tony Blair is trying to get some stuff through parliament here which is a blatant violation of civil rights. But the only time I would expect to have my mugshot and fingerprints taken is when I've been convicted of a crime.
These anti-terrorism measures are fast becoming an excuse to rape our rights.
Me too. Any ideas for a destination? :(
I quite like Holland (I spent six months there last year) but i'm not so sure now since they supported the iraq war, if only by a token gesture. They used to have a decent government, but being good people, they accepted the blame for a mistake and resigned en-mass.
A latent existence
Well...if *you've* never eaten a "decent" meal in France, then I guess it's impossible for good food to exist in France.
From the sounds of it they were treating you like shit for a very good reason...and it's nothing to do with language.
BTW, I'm european too.
Apparently you feel content doing the same. I read each of your responses; twice, just to be sure. What magic knowledge are you bestowing here? Yes, certain people attempted and succeeded at taking down 2 of our buildings, yet others still want to move here in droves for a 'better life'. Your second comment on the EU exactly proves my point. If entrance into the EU will cost others then screw them...they're not getting what they want, when they want it. My original post stands and I submit that you're not really saying anything new in your response.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
(...) yet others still want to move here in droves for a 'better life'.
Oh, is that what you meant with 'love'. Well, I might be mistaken, but I think the reason that a lot of people want to move to the US (or the EU of that matter) is not because of its foreign policy, but because of simple economics: average living standards in the US are relatively high, at least higher than where they are coming from. And of course there are people who have to run for their lives because they said something that upset some government. But they are running because else they would live in constant fear for their lives, not because they 'love' the US.
So, what do we have: people who rather live in the US than in some second/third world country, and terrorists who want to let loose the dogs of war because of US foreign policy. I think the two are totally unrelated, and thus fail to see the logic in your original question on why not to ask why people 'love' the US.
Your second comment on the EU exactly proves my point. If entrance into the EU will cost others then screw them...they're not getting what they want, when they want it.
Wait a sec, I am afraid I cannot follow you: you said something like governments will do anything to maximize profit, I gave a counter example, and now you are saying something in which I see no logic. A, B and C help D and E, at the economic cost of A, B and C themselves. A, B and C are clearly not maximizing profits.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
This happened only becuase of government regulation. Look at the "company" towns in the 1880s-1930s If you want to work there you must go to their store, live in their houses, if you don't your fired. Without government regulation there is nothing to prevent this from happening agian. If you want to buy food, and the manager asks for your finger print and/or photo, If you say "screw this" you will lose your job and,possibly, get blacklisted.
Without government regulation( including regulation of monopolies)there is nothing to stop microsoft from using its market share to leverage hardware requirements into new prossessors, there is nothing to stop the RIAA from retliating agianst filesharers. The only reason the government has more power is that it cost money to run the government and it doesn't turn a profit.
As for military power the only reason corporation don't here is that there is a working police/government apparatus. There have been instances of corporation(particularly oil) using mercenaries or security firms, mostly in regions where there isn't alot of oversight. Agian the only reason they don't here is becuase someone is already doing it.
Unlike most countries, the US now makes all connecting passengers go through customs, require proper visas, etc.
There used to be a few routes where you could either stay on the same plane, or stay in an international lounge.. now the US makes you de-plane and go through immigration & customs in ALL cases.
And I travel quite a bit, internationally, thanks. I'm not just making this shit up to argue, I'm telling it from personal experience over the last few years of catching flights that connect at US airports (Houston, Miami, Dallas, etc), and from the experiences of co-workers who do the same.
If you know of an international flight that connects in the US and works as you say, with proper international holding areas, please, let me know what it is, I'd be interested to know.
Actually, I mean "members of Al Qaeda" versus the people they disagree with.
It seems that our major point of contention is whether it's the case that freedom-minded members of Al Qaeda are being manipulated by extremists, or that Al Qaeda's tenets are transparent and basically oppressive.
I believe the latter, and if I interpret you correctly, you believe the former. I believe my opinion is borne out by the company that Al Qaeda kept in Afghanistan, a nation happily referred to by it's opressors as the "most perfect muslim nation on earth", and who regularly killed such people as:
And who banned such items as:
That Al Qaeda is happy to keep such company is telling. Compare and contrast this version of freedom with our own.
Nice debate, however. One of the most civil ones I've had on Slashdot.
You see no logic period...it has nothing to do with A, B or C. Fine...our foreign policy sucks and all Americans are assholes. We do nothing more than plan the destruction of all other countries on the planet and twist our moustache when we succeed. We all go to sleep at night hoping that the rest of the evil world will disintegrate into oblivion so we won't have to waste our money on really expensive weaponry at the taxpayer's expense. We all secretly meet in the shadowy corridors of the inner city to plan the demise of all that oppose us. The middle class in this country are covertly planning a counter-attack not just against our own government but the rest of the world (except Israel) in general because we feel REALLY threatened. Apparently no one as educated as yourself can see the 'logic' clearly and possibly comprehend a different viewpoint; as uneducated as it may seem. Hi, I'm an uneducated asshole American and I believe all others that don't agree with me should perish because my opinion means more than yours. I voted for and support a person who's trying to clean up the mess left by 11 martyrs; I'm obviously anti-world. Hi, I'm an asshole. Now are you happy? Not that YOUR opinion matters to me anyway...
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
That was because I was unlucky enough to arrive just after a Chinese flight. Now, every foreigner will have to endure the same delays. The experience I had was not unique, and so in the future will I try to avoid any business trips to the US.
What makes it worse is that they used to have a system to expedite immigration. The INS PASS system stored a retina scan, hand geometry and fingerprint. A quick scan in a machine when you arrived, and you could whisk through customs in less than a minute. The programme was halted before 9/11, for reasons unknown.
I hope to hell that all other countries start doing these checks on US citizens. Then you'll see a backlash. Not that people from the US travel overseas much...
What about Nader? I thought he had run as well in the last election?
Bullshit.
"[Americans] are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgable ignorance'. According to the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, the US gave between $6 and $15 billion in foreign aid in the period between 1995 and 1999. In absolute terms, Japan gives more than the US, between $9 and $15 billion in the same period. But the absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share"
"Why do people hate America?" by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies, 2002. p79
______________
OTTERS RULE.
Fine...our foreign policy sucks and all Americans are assholes.
Yes, I believe US foreign policy sucks, but no, I never said nor implied that I think all Americans are assholes though; I try to treat Americans as human beings, with all their good and bad sides, like any other human being. I also fail to see any reason in the rest of your rant; I never even suggested any of the things you are summing up.
I voted for and support a person who's trying to clean up the mess left by 11 martyrs;
We've got a saying in dutch: "dweilen met de kraan open", roughly translated to "mopping with the tab still running". That is all I am saying: as long as the US continues its bullying foreign policy, it can expect more attacks from terrorrists, because that foreign policy is what got those terrorists started in the first place. Is that so hard to believe? Is that out of this world? Is that magical wisdom?
And what Bush is trying is futile: an open society can never fully protect itself agains terrorist attacks. To prevent those attacks the US would have to control _everything_ that comes into the country, and also control _every_ action of _every_ individual within its borders, and probably even beyond. Hello 1984.
Hi, I'm an asshole. Now are you happy?
No, I'm not, because I do not think you are an asshole. I do think you are refusing to see things from another perspective. And fyi: I do see things from different perspectives: if I were to 'meet' a palestine who approves of the bombings on busses and terrorist attacks I would do what lies within my power to make him understand that violence is always a short term, bad working 'solution' agains democratic countries.
Not that YOUR opinion matters to me anyway.
Hmm, your opinion _does_ matter to me. I see mutual understanding as a good thing. And why enter into a discussion with me when my opinion does not matter to you? Or are you just saying that to make me feel bad about myself, or that you are looking down on me?
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
Actually, I mean "members of Al Qaeda" versus the people they disagree with.
:-)
My choice of words was poor and too black and white: members of Al Qaeda come in different flavours: the leadership will do everything in its power to keep their members as zealous as possible; once the US changes its tune a lot of extremists will loose their reason for being extremist.
And regarding that 'perfect muslim state': I almost wet my pants when there were clear signals coming from Iran that Taliban interpertation of islam was from the middle ages.
Nice debate, however. One of the most civil ones I've had on Slashdot.
Thank you. I try to do my best, but that is not so hard since I live in a country where personal freedom is considered a good thing (if you want to smoke cannabis, you can; you can even ask a police officer for a light), where everyone is entitled to social benefits, where consumers are protected, where politicians try to discuss and reason with each other instead of throwing dirt and one-liners, where government, employers and employees sit down together to improve the economy (polder-model), where everybody is entitled to medical support, and minorities are being listened to.
So, it is in fact only logical that I am not a hard-liner, but believe in a good discussion on equal terms, where all parties try to understand each other. Since you seem to be doing the same, we end up in a nice debate
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
No print taken for me in Nebraska, and they managed to take my picture only once.
Now if I could only find out what data is encoded in that 2-D barcode on the back.
And our DMV does sell its driver's license data to private companies.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Some other people pointed this out and I did some research and only a half dozen or so other states require fingerprints to obtain a license. California has had this requirement since 1982 and I was assuming that other states had similar requirements. Obviously a false assumption on my part, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Nader did run but archives.gov didn't mention the 3rd party popular vote for 2000 like they did for 1996 and 1992. Perhaps Nader's count falls below their threshold for inclusion. Perot had 19% and 9%, far better than Nader. There are all sorts of oddball candiadates that don't get listed.
Here's a more inclusive chart I just found: http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm. It shows:
Bush 50,456,002 47.87%
Gore 50,999,897 48.38%
Nader 2,882,955 2.74%
Geek codes are easily reversible. The OP was about one way hashes so that theft of some of the hashes could not be used to produce fraudulent fingerprints. I've never formally studied one way hashes, but I thought that if similar sources produced similar hashes, then that property could be used to crack (reverse) the hashing system.
If we were ants living on a Rubik's cube, differential geometry would be a little more confusing.
well it certainly wouldnt contain enough information to reconstruct the whole print, but maybe (im not sure) you could reconstruct the features that were recorded, but you would get a picture that looked nothing like a finger-print - but then if i said the letter E had a downwards stroke and a horizontal stroke at the bottom, you might be able to reconstruct the letter L and that would still pass the test! so a reconstructed image that didnt look like a finger print might still pass.
A normal one way hash eg md5 is designed so that a small change in the source will produce a large change in the hash, but in any system you use its always going to be possible to take a given hash and generate a source that will produce the same hash, its just a question of proccessing power, and i would guess that the sort of system produced by companies contracted by the government would be much poorer than average (diebold prooves my point) so you just better make sure your finger-print data stays secure. Biometrics really isnt the holy grail of anything.
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