Slashdot Mirror
Northface University - Computer Science in Half the Time?
prostoalex writes "Associated Press runs a nationwide story on Northface University. The school, founded by a pair of venture capitalists and former technology chief found a niche with its highly intensive curriculum and corporate software development specialization. For example, a BSCS degree can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification. Northface is also promoting its corporate partnerships, which allow current students to feel more secure about future employment. Grady Booch from IBM is quoted to be 'jazzed up' about the program, although there are many who oppose such approaches to college education."
Half the time
Half the money
Half the college experience.
So? Is it accredited? I got a BSCS plus math and a thorough liberal arts education in 6 semesters. I'll be impressed when they teach you something other than another fad technology. As too many people here know: a degree is not only not everything, but it's hardly anything in this field.
Sounds a lot like what Philip Greenspun was trying to do with ArsDigita University.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
That's nice and all, but don't confuse it with a 4-year university, unless they're doubling up everything. A technically intensive degree doesn't produce the same kind of individual that a normal 4 year degree, with a variety of disciplines and experiences, provides.
Taken in that light, 2-year technical schools are nothing new. Any university could get you through in 2 years if you took nothing outside your major.
As if it wasn't hard enough for computer people to learn social skills. There's gonna be a new crop of CS people graduating from a total-immersion CS program with nothing to talk about except computers. Wait, that's what we do now. Hooray for nerds!
12:50 - press return.
Well it sure is an interesting idea...and I'm sure many will jump on it. But in my experience, turboing a CS course of study is bad. There's a lot to said for maturity and experience. I know I had a lot of trouble keeping up with a normal program -- it just moved so fast and skimmed so much -- but now that I have time and experience under my belt, it all seems so much easier and more clear. Sometimes taking your time is a good thing, and I think that getting a degree is one of those things that should take a while -- experience is often the most valuable asset.
Moo.
Oh my god, another Devry
...can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification.
I've said this before, and will again. A collection of certificates is not the same as a computer science degree.
Learning to program or to operate a specific set of programs if valuable, don't get me wrong there. But that is not the same thing as understanding the workings of a computer (which I consider Computer Science).
Learning a set of skills is very job-applicable, and very practical. But it should not be called computer science.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
this is pretty worrisome to me. it turns education into a venue for companies to spread their product line, instead of a place for critical discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of emerging technologies.
these kids are going to come out of school with a CS degree and very little of the knowledge that a COMPUTER SCIENTIST should have.
Now Im not saying that there isnt a place for a 2 year degree that is focused on programming for corprate america. corprate america needs more programmers, especialy ones that have been custom made for the type of work that corps need, but to call them CS majors? I have a hard time beliving that they will realy learn much of the science side of CS in 2 years, while also training in 2 certifications.
Perhaps Im wrong and this cariculum will teach excelent data structure usage, and algorithim analysis and AI and compiler design and low level architecture. But at this point i kind of doubt it.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Just taking my experience of job hunting just out of college, a CS bach. degree is not that desirable to businesses.
Unless changed in the last few year's, the 'Big 6' liked anything but CS majors. EDS (I know bad example) even went so far as to prefer MUSIC majors. Their argument was that anyone can be taught to code - the 'free thinkers' in the BA degrees were where their employees resided.
Add to that the out-of-country outsourcing (where specific programming disciplines are taught), and a BSCS does not appear to be a good career path, 2 OR 4 years.
A degree is only as valuable as the university giving it. Once the students start coming into the job market, the companies will obviously realize the quality of this accelerated education and then decide what a degree from such an university is worth.
If not, a BS degree from a local smalltime university should be at par with a BS from MIT. Sadly, we know this is not true.
I do however like the idea of an intense curriculum, hopefully this does not go the way of the DeVry
Liberal arts. That's the part of a college education that teaches people to think for themselves, and to be generalists.
Nothing wrong with that, but nobody should be under the impression that this is as good as a traditional degree with a full curriculum. Unfortunately, the students who graduate from such a program will think they are well rounded, and well educated. That's because they will lack the thinking tools needed to realize that they don't have a full education.
No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
If you are learning how to click menu items in Websphere, you are getting an IT degree, not a Computer Science degree.
In theory you could teach a full computer science degree without even touching a computer. Computer Science is the theory behind computation, IT is the practical application of the work.
I finished BSCS in 6 consecutive semesters -- in 2 years.. With 120 credits exactly -- which was required for a BSCS degree...
So it's doable, if you really want to do it.. I took 20+ credits each semester to pull it off.. Consider it as going to work each day, as I had classes from 8am till about 4pm...
I have to admit though.. My degree did not include MCSD certification, but then again, doesn't it expire in two years or so?...
Karma: Bad (but who really cares anyway?)
...although there are many who oppose such approaches to college education.
I do not approach such an approach. I oppose such institution being called "Universities". If you're getting two certs, AND a CS degree, where's the Humanities, History, PE, and other pieces of a well-rounded, universal education?
OT: Some people do not like general education, and that's fine. Go to a two-year (like this one), or another vocational training program. Unfortunately, administrators, wanting to attract these people are "modernizing" university education, and cheapening it at the same time.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
So essentially this turns the CS degree into a trade skill like pumbing or electrician. Not that that is bad. My biggest concern about their technical skills would be if they had a sufficient math background -- IMHO no enough CS grads know or appreciate enough real math.
On another note though, even a general understanding of history, politics, and a host of other subjects one meets in a more "liberal" education is very important and often lacking amongst the general population.
Who said Freedom was Fair?
I'm a fourth year comp sci student at McMaster university. I think it's a great idea. In my four years, the first 2 didn't even have that many comp sci course, a lot was electives. Sure electives are great for general knowledge and fun, but if you just want to get your comp sci degree and start working, then this is a much better option. Plus, if you really want to do electives you could do it after you start working.
Personally i'm sick of university, i was sick of it after the first year and I wish it was over. My attendance rate is near zero percent (literally), and i still manage As? Seems rather ridiculous and a waste of my money, considering everything i've learned about programming is at my current and previous development positions.
a certification teaches you how to answer questions and follow a set of instructions. a real education teaches you how to think and solve problems.
i'd rather hire one CS student that went to a 4-year, second tier school, than a thousand 2-year certified programming monkeys.
These schools
They made their teachers be on-site sysadmins for no additional pay.
Deceitful recruiters and poor courses.
i think with the right students liberal arts is not needed at university level. after all you forget that stuff after graduating that is if you haven't by graduation day.
brains are going to boil in that program. thats for surer
One day the truth of it hit me:
People don't go to college to learn things. They go to college to get a piece of paper that qualifies them for certain jobs.
This is a program that lets you walk out of there with 2 useful certifications and a degree under your belt. It's a "cut the crap" kind of education.
These people aren't out there to bilk you out of your money, or to brainwash you. They're there to provide a service to a niche market. And you're it.
Apparently that's their secret -- double the caffeine, halve the time needed for a CS degree. Or is a 52 ounce Mountain Dew now a standard beverage for normal college students?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Does anyone else find it odd that a school to produce more geeks is named after a outdoor wear company? the mascot? Northface University Jackets
It reminds me of the boom days where every other TV commerical is from one of those paper mills that promise high paying IT jobs for a year's worth of schooling.
The business plan calls for 1,200 graduates a year by 2007 - five times MIT's 225 graduates in computer-related fields each year, Northface executives say.
And since when do they measure the quality of school based on the number of graduates per year?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
It looks like one of those "IT" degrees. There are no hardware courses like Computer Arch. There is no Discrete Math course or Calc II course. There are no science sequence courses or anything like that. It is merely software development with no training in algorithms or hardware. It's basically a glorified cert with a Philosophy and English course thrown in. You can substitute the time needed to spend on a degree with more busy work.
You can get a degree like this at ITT or any number of community colleges.
...don't let your studies interfere with your education.
I went to a 4 year university and learned NOTHING. Not a single skill that can get me a job. All i learned was computer theory. If this had been available i would have jumped on it 4 years ago. Every job i interview with rejects me because i lack experience. The 4 year university's are just a machine to extort money from you.
How is this a Computer Science curriculum?
... the first course teaches all of "software development life cycle, OO Concepts, introductory Object Role Modeling (ORM), Entity Relationship Diagrams (ERD), HTML, ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Visual Studio Enterprise Architect, C#, Structured Query Language (SQL), Microsoft SQL Server, and XML basics.". That is quite the ... course.
Course Descriptions
So
Nothing new here, just another technical institute trying to sell their courses as something they aren't... I have no idea if it is a good program or not, but it isn't a CS degree.
This is going to be a degree in Computer Programming, or Computer Administration at the most.
These people are not going to be taught a wide spread of stuff like in Computer Science that goes from lots of maths and theoretical stuff through to real world stuff through to hardware and all that.
You can but hope that this course will create people that are more than unthinking code monkeys or button clickers.
This sounds like nothing more than a degree from a Technical College. Yes, very useful, however a college education is much more than learning specific skills. It is about becoming a more well-rounded, educated person.
Not to mention double the drinking. Double the random tomfoolery and shennanigans. Double the debt and double the substandard living and food. For me, all this things are as much, if not more so, a part of the University experience as any lecture or all-nighter.
There's more to a proper education and university experience then simply aquiring the nesseccary skills to be an effective employee. Personal growth and a well rounded education, I'd like to believe, are why one shoudl go to university, not simply because you'd like to eb a more effective corporate cog.
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
Let me be the first to propose that students graduating from this college with a degree in "Computer Science" be instead given a degree in "Computer". There's no science going on there. No arts either, but I will leave developing that witticism to others.
I looked at the CS requirements, a whopping 12 credits of math(or maths for those of you outside the US). I had that many math credits at the end of my freshman year at Penn State, and had to take much more. The theories behind CS is math, and if they want to do anything but be a code monkey, they will need more than "Introduction to Calculus", most CS geeks took that in high school...
If you want to get through your undergrad program really quick, take the AP tests, don't go to some fly-by-night college....
Their textbooks are the "Teach Yourself XYZ in 24 hours" series?
"It sounds like an institution that has identified a need, but will come out with programmers instead of people really trained to think critically,"
Eric Grimson, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology administrator
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
There you go, that is the crux of the biscuit. This is essentially a trade-school education, which will teach you what you need to know to be a code monkey.
It will -not- teach you design and problem-solving skills, but a lot of positions these days are more about cranking code than coming up with a good design.
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Now a joint IT/MBA four year program - that would have a payoff.
I slogged four years (with breaks for co-ops) at a major American university very close to where I lived. I learned an incredible amount of theory, computing background, and a good solid programming style. ...that was 20 years old.
The sad thing is that I had a good amount of trouble (thanks Dubya) finding work. However, my theory has served me well.
If you have the theory, you can pick up the current much easier than if you just have the current and no theory. (My beef with my school is that they spend all of their efforts on theory, and learn little practical knowledge.)
My college just started an entire new college called "IST" which attempts to merge business (MS/IS) majors with computer science.
I'm finding that a lot of people who want to go into that major:
1) want lots of money, quickly
2) can't program and have no desire to
3) don't know about the old "Paper Novell Engineer" phenomena and are happy with getting certificates.
Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Electrial Engineering majors tend to call it "The System Administration Major" :)
While too much theory can be a bad thing (evidenced by my difficulties entering the market) it's definitely better than learning the latest and greatest in a highly protean field (like computing) without at least some roots in theory.
(Incidentally, this is why Visual Basic programming has a stigma attached. The bar was lowered to make entry easier--and it means while VB 'works' for many applications, I haven't seen a lot of elegant VB code that is scalable and designed well.)
--BA
Most of the programmers at my office already have 4 year degrees, but not in computer science. Those folks need a practical education. I just think that it is kind of a waste of time for someone in their early 30's to start over as a freshman and have to go through 4 years of schooling to get a degree that won't teach them practical skills.
ayershome.org/users/eric
What is the point of college? Many people would say "in order to get a good job" or "to learn a specialty." Those are the most popular answers.
The point of going to college is to help you *think*. Sure, you take a boatload of courses in your specialty, math, humanities, social sciences, and hard sciences. You also learn a lot about yourself, the real world, how to adjust to changes, and how to stand on your own two feet.
What I find discouraging about programs such as Northface University are two things: it doesn't teach you how to think, and it locks you into a brand. You come out of Northface learning SPECIFICALLY Microsoft and IBM technologies, which is great for Microsoft and IBM --for the time being. But time changes, and technology changes rapidly. What happens if in the long-term there are other alternatives. Those who have the ability to think can adjust to new alternatives or find other choices --even a new career. Those who are locked-in to specific technologies will probably need to start all over again, which is sad.
LA 120 Written and Spoken Communications I
Students strengthen their composition and oral presentation skills. Students examine the purpose, structure, logic, and language of expository writing. Students explore and apply appropriate skills for writing and public speaking, including the principles of rhetoric. Students learn the speech, composition, and delivery techniques needed to prepare for a variety of effective presentations.
LA 125 Collaborative and Interpersonal Communications
Students develop collaborative skills for successful interpersonal interactions and group work. Students learn and apply principles related to interpersonal communications, group dynamics, leadership and followership, benefits and caveats of group work, and the collaborative group life cycle.
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
Universities (the good ones anyway) enable a student to observe, analyze, and think. thats it. and if done right, creates 30 year plus worth of opportunities where technology changes every few years and will continue to change faster than it ever has. "schools" like these are merely diploma peddlers which will get someone a job that devalues year over year... baaah.
From my experience, this is just a scam by the colleges to get your dough. And the work-world enforces this scam by requiring 4year degrees for some jobs.
There used to be a great method for preparing people for work - apprentiships. I wonder who is more valuable - someone who works for 4 years at a job preparing him for a career ( using the right tools and working AT THAT career), or someone who goes to college for 4 years ( and comes out with NO experience in the field)?
I got a math degree. I have worked in IT for over 36 years. Never used my degree. In fact the best programmer I ever worked with had a degree in Physical Education. A damn jock!
... How can I tell?
Sally Struthers is the dean.
- sm
You can get the technical training in two years, no problem. But all of the side stuff (history, arts, etc) is necessary to function in society as more than a worker monkey. Lastly, for someone coming right out of high school, the partying, friendships, and different experiences of college are what really make the college experience worthwhile. I made friends in college I never would have even expected to talk to before. I've got new ideas and different viewpoints. That's why college should be four years. OTOH, this would be great for someone who is older, has done the whole college thing, and just want to get on the right career track.
From the 1950s to 1970s programming was considered a trade school discipline. MIT avoided even offering a major in the subject. Then it crept in as a minor in electrical engineering (6.3). Then in @1978 it made CS a titled majored (part of course 6). Before then people had to minor in CS via EE, math or business.
With all the Chinese and Indian "hire 100 PhDs for $9000/year", we need things like this to stay competitive. Degree inflation in some of these outsourcing firms has gotten so rampant, I won't be surprised if some countries start handing out PhDs with high school diplomas.
The Bachelor of Science in Computer Science (B.S.C.S.) program is a ten-quarter, 28 month program. The academic year at Northface University is 47 weeks, and there are 10 weeks in a quarter.
Students attend classes and work on projects from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m., with one hour for lunch, five days a week. Most assignments are performed in groups as part of lab and project work.
This seems possible. In fact, it seems exactly like what most universities offer - less the out-of-faculty electives.
At my university, a full degree takes 8 semesters, or approximately 4300 hours of coursework (estimating 3 hours in class, and 6 hours out, per week). This can be done in as little as 32 months if one really tries hard. (read: doesn't fail anything, and takes 5 courses a semester with not summers off)
This place is advertising 3980 course hours, a 9-5 school environment, and 47 weeks of class a year.
Really, you are getting the same ammount of education. In fact, you are likely getting more (the 3980 number does not take into account homework time, my 4300 hour estimate does). What you are losing out on is diversity. Which many students don't want.
True, diversity is a valuable asset, and a valuable experience. I enjoyed taking english and writing classes, and found them very useful as well. But if you really want diversity, go to this school, get your first degree in just over two years, and then enroll in a second degree program somewhere else.
I'm certainly surprised at the amount of people complaining about the removal of non-CS classes from a BSCS curriculum. Having completed a year at a private liberal arts college, I think that although a BS in two years my be pushing things, trimming the excess general classes isn't a terrible idea. This past year I had to endure courses such as History, Theology, and a Foreign language. Some liberal arts my prove useful to develop critical thinking skills, however when will a CS major ever need to spout historical trivia or religious parables?
I went to Penn State and got my math minor by changing two 300-level STAT courses into 400-level ones and adding a few extra math courses. Translation: Computer Science more or less CONTAINS a Math Minor. I tend to think that's not just confined to PSU... They're going to be Sys Admins who WISH they were as cool as BOFH. ;)
This two year degree is pretty much the kind of crap you'd expect. No theory, little exposure advanced topics. The cirriculum is pretty much a lesson in writing web applications for a small set of technologies. Apparently a critical part of all software is the Web.
This is no drop in replacement for a well rounded and indepth degree you'll find at your local University. Accrediation means something, you know.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Looks like these guys need to go back to school themselves so they can figure out how to write proper HTML.
AN 160 World Cultures
;)
Students explore the range and meaning of cultural diversity by studying several alternative models for what culture is. Students examine a selection of three or four world cultures of topical interest, identifying basic differences in cultural assumptions, social structures, and behavior patterns. Students gain an understanding of their individual culture and peoples whose beliefs and customs differ from their own, preparing them to better live and work in other cultures and societies.
Should be called outsourcing 101...
I doubt many companies care if you can create a turing machine on paper using predicate calculus either. But it's still an important part of computer science.
The difference between a trade school and a university is that the university aims to not only equip you with the knowledge to perform in a job, but to make you a better all around person as well through exposure to other studies, people and ideas.
In no other situation in life will you ever get a chance to experience such a fascinating breadth of humanity in such a period of time. Its a sad shame some people see this as a BAD thing.
-
Two years is a lot of time. We only have 30-40 years of prime productivity. I know not everyone will be interested in being highly productive throughout their lives, but for many of us, it's a central part of who we are. Things that distract us or directly impede our making meaningful contributions to our society/family are both frustrating and morale sapping.
Vocational training and vendor certifications are great. But they aren't computer science.
There are trade schools who offer "degrees" in "Electronics Engineering Technology" and "Computer Technology" where, as far as I can tell, you learn to fix VCRs and install Exchange Server 2000.
Obviously this is beyond that level, but it's still vocational training.
OTOH, industry always needs a greater number of schleps than creative thinkers, and the American educational system has been morphing to suit industry's needs for a hundred years. The average CS grad is no great shakes. This school just formalizes and rationalizes the production of average CS grads. They won't be be any less competent than the others.
It's an interesting response to outsourcing: lower the standards of education so we can home-grow more workers.
You get out of a college education what you put into it. You can send four years doing the bare minimum, or you can obtain a great education. This idea cuts the opertunity in half. For some, that may be sufficient, or exactly what they want. For others, it wont be. There is no question that double the time offers double the learning potential. It is up to the user, the student, to decide to take advantage of it or not. Choices are good. An in-depth four year education will provide a deeper learning opertunity than a two year immersion. Peace.
> All you need is teach the right material to the
> righy audience. not every tom, dick and harry is
> meant to go there.
> i think with the right students liberal arts is
> not needed at university level. after all you
> forget that stuff after graduating that is if
> you haven't by graduation day.
> brains are going to boil in that program. thats
> for surer
Your post is a PERFECT example of why four-year schools with broad, challenging programs are necessary, and increasingly rare. How many students are already coming out of these low-tier two and four-year schools demonstrating the same stunning lack of basic writing skills that you have shown? How many of these so-called universities are lowering their standards every year to accommodate the lazy, illiterate morons that our high schools are graduating?
It is the perspective gained from a broad education that gives us the power to understand the world around us and form intelligent opinions. The fact that some of these people vote frightens me.
...is for the corporations themselves to start up "universities". Why go to a 4 year college, when you can be hiried right out of high school and sculpted for your position in 18 - 24 months?
The only difference here is that the name of the college isn't "University of Souther IBM".
I don't like it.
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
I wish people wouldn't call an Engineering - at best - degree Science.
This degree "provide[s] Northface University graduates with a strong foundation in technical skills and standards, an understanding of the business environment, and the ability to communicate and function well as members of teams," but no Science!
(Btw, I'm not being a snob - my first degree was in Software Engineering, even though I consider myself a Computer Scientist now...)
And I have visited, so I am familiar with it. The current campus and offices are very nice. They will be moving soon though, so the facilities will be different. From what I can tell this is a compromise between a real 4-year university education and a cert mill. It seems to focus on practical application and building a portfolio more than CS theory. They do take classes other than CS, but the emphasis is on the CS classes. You certainly can't get a minor in English Lit. Since I got my CS degree at Stanford I tend to look down on it, but for many people this is a great way to go. It might not be right for you, but for some it fits the bill.
Lasers Controlled Games!
There's a huge difference between TRAINING and EDUCATION. You can train somebody so they have whatever certifications you want ... but that doesn't mean they know how to learn. I learned a lot of different things at college ... many of which I'm sure I'll never use, but they helped develop my brain to think a certain way and I improved my ability to learn how to learn. Particularly in an age where outsourcing is prevelant, I'd rather have a broad knowledebase.
... and for anyone that's purely technical ... that may be a good fit.
On the flipside, maybe college can be completed in 2 years if you take away all the fun, alcohol, and women
Anything that gives traditional colleges something to worry about is good. Its called healthy competition.
Northface.edu runs 47 weeks a year and the program is composed of ten 10-week quarters.
10 quarters x 10 weeks=100 weeks of class in two years as opposed to 8 semesters x 13 weeks=104 weeks of class in four years.
Its a 4 year degree just a faster, cheaper (by a little bit), stronger one with additional benefits.
It makes you wonder why traditional colleges don't do this. Perhaps it is because they like raking in inflated housing fees and food sales and the annual tuition hikes. Perhaps they are simply milking their aging business model of enslaving their grad students and treating undergrads like cattel instead of customers. For Profit Colleges and technical schools continue to innovate and traditional colleges are still living in the 1950's.
This is degree is similiar to ITT degrees (who do also offer 4 year degrees). But if you go to a place that actually checks on where you got your degree it won't be worth it. Yes Degrees are papers that say that you have no experience and can do computer theory but thats the building blocks. They know that you can learn, and that you don't already have "your way" of doing things. My 4 year degree got me my job, with no experience.
I checked this out since Northface is close to my house. However I decided that it wasn't for me, I am more of a CIS type guy then CS. I work full-time during the day. I recall, and checked to make sure that you have to take psychology, philosophy, and other classes. This one of the first things I looked into, is this a trade like school, or is it really trying to cram a 4 year degree in two years. I'll admit it is probably more technical skill oriented than your traditional 4 year, but its not completely skimping on the liberal arts.
I think that part of it is that there is less chance for work and social life at Northface. It might be something you don't want to sacrifice, but some people do. I have a full load at the U of U this fall, in the CIS degree program. A typical year (two semesters) at the U of U where I am involves being in class for about 15 hours a week for ~32 weeks (~16 a semester). I am told I should have 30 hours of homework studying outside of class but I haven't had to do that much work for good grades personally. Compared if I was at Northface I would have 47 weeks of school in a year, class would be 8 hours a day M-F. I don't recall is the outside of class expected time/work is explained on the site. However even if the each week of school were equal between the two that would mean that I was getting the same as 6 semesters at the U from Northface.
In theory it could be possible to do the classwork to satisfy a 4 year degree in 2 years. You would just have to have average a little over 20 hours a semester and go fall spring AND summer. So if you don't like it, don't deride it merely on the basis of the fact that they have concentrated the school work down to two years as the standard way of doing things.
Computer Science (an academic subject) and Software Development (a business pursuit) are very different things.
I would think that all the people with CS degrees here would know that by now.
Some of the best coders I've ever encountered were under 20. It doesn't really take that long for someone with the right sort of intelligence to develop the skills. So the idea of a two-year crash course isn't unreasonable.
The real problem is, that sort of intelligence isn't all that rare. Which is why a coding career isn't as lucrative as it once was, I guess. These crash courses beguile their audiences into thinking they can be fabulously wealthy just as coders. You need a great deal more to convert computing skill into something other than a moderately paid high stress job.
Know computing, but also know something else, is my advice for most people. What else? Something that you can apply the computing to, basically. There's a lot of choices. Pick one.
mt
This is just DeVry rehashed. Im sure its great for some, but as many others have noted, dont try to call it computer science.
-- listen to interesting music, support independent radio... WPRB
I'm about to take my CPT (placement testing / acceptance testing) for DeVry university around here, and I'm amazed that this has come up. A few questions for you slashdotters, if you wouldn't mind (mod me offtopic if you will, this story is a perfect segway for my question).
These technical schools, of course, are FOR-PROFIT organizations. They are here to take your money, and give you a piece of paper.
My questions regarding this being: Are any of you holding a degree from Devry/technical schools out there? How did you break in to the industry with a Bachelors/Associates degree? Are there *ANY* success stories out there with people from these technical schools?
I'm hoping I am not pissing away all this money for a piece of paper, which will be laughed at. Bottom line is, at my current residence, I need to get something under my belt & get the hell out of here as quickly as possible. I know quick & easy is never a good solution for an education, but honestly.. I can't see landing a job with just tech certs alone & absolutely no college. Time is ticking for me, and I cannot, for the life of me, find any entrance in to the field around Chicago.
Granted this isn't a CS degree i'm shooting for, it's considered a bachelors in applied science. Is it even worth my time & money? I'm looking to pay about 50 grand back in the stafford loan program, when and if i'm successful in completing it. I know experience is the greatest thing to have on a resume, but I need to start somewhere, and this seems like a perfect solution. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
This new program is better than going to Devri/University of Phoenix but worse than going to a 4 year college. A graduate of this new program will be able to code but may not be fit for management.
My first thought on reading this was "that's a trade school" and now reading the article i see that Northface is "accredited by an organization that certifies trade schools"
And just because they're going to "offer an MBA" doesn't make it a real school... MBAs are of questionable merit, except to other MBAs, even when they're from the best schools.
This is absurd, the VC's answer to everything... pare away the important bits, keep the surface and try to get away with it.
A single place teaching all the computing skills corporate america needs (to outsource next). I think I will pass...
Many US colleges force you to stay the entire 3.5 - 4 years due to somehting called "residency credit", as opposed to "course credits."
Simply put, I could have graduated 1 year early (course credit wise) but to make the extra $25k off of me (and everyone else), they set up this thing called "residency credits". You need 4 of these and earn 0.5 per semester (regardless of credits). It is a sham, and why somehting like "a new college" appeals to people.
Mills College (Oakland, CA) has a program with similar goals, although a more academic focus. Specifically, Mills has post-baccalaureate programs for people who already have a bachelor's degree in another field. Graduates go on to industry or to CS PhD programs, such as University of Washington, MIT, and UCSD. The coursework is primarily upper-division undergraduate CS courses, which are taught by faculty with PhDs from top schools, such as MIT, Princeton, and UC Berkeley.
FYI, I direct the program. We're having an Open House on Thursday, August 19, and are still accepting applications and awarding aid for this fall. Contact me for more information.
If you want a degree that is worth something and can't be cheaped out in 2 years, get your Electrical or Computer Engineering degree. Many people I know couldn't even do it in 4 years, it took me 5 to get my EE. You know what they say .... Electrical Engineers make the best programmers.
Read the curriculum before passing judgement.
.NET I
This place requires a lot of non-CS courses be taken in conjunction with your CS courses.
In fact, the only place it seems to be lacking is in theory classes. But those might be hidden in there somewhere, the names can be a little deveiving.
For those of you that don't feel like digging around on their site, I have posted the course topics below. As I understand it, this is the mandatory curriculum.
CS 110 Introduction to Software Development
CS 280 Certification Lab - MCSD: C# and
LA 120 Written and Spoken Communications I
LA 125 Collaborative and Interpersonal Communications
CS 210 Collaborative Applications I
CS 381 Certification Lab - MCSD: C# and.NET II with XML
LA 121 Written and Spoken Communications II
PH 230 Logic and Critical Thinking I
CS 310 Advanced Applications I
CS 382 Certification Lab MCSD: XML Web Services, COM+, and SQL
MA 110 Sets, Functions, and Computer Number Systems
PH 231 Logic and Critical Thinking II
CS 410 Enterprise Applications I
CS 383 Certification Lab MCSD
MA 210 Graph Theory and Introductory Calculus
AN 160 World Cultures
CS 220 Collaborative Applications II
CS 390 Certification Lab: Java
MA 310 Probability, Statistics, and Data Mining
PS 165 Psychology
CS 320 Advanced Applications II
CS 391 Certification Lab: OOAD with UML and J2EE
MA 410 Computer Mathematics
HI 140 Social History
CS 420 Enterprise Applications II
CS 392 Certification Lab: WebSphere
PN 150 Physics
HI 240 History of Technology
CS 460 Community Externship
PH 235 Philosophy
PN 155 Life Science
PE 170 Healthy Living
CS 462 Community and Enterprise Externships
BU 180 Business Fundamentals
BU 185 International Business Relations
CS 464 Enterprise Externship
LA 420 Professional Communications
Here, the first cut is the harshest and it doesn't matter where your degree is from. When reviewing applicants for a position take the top half of the resume stack and dump it in the trash: avoid hiring unlucky people.
Speak truth to power.
That's not college. It's a trade school. A vocational program. That's very useful, maybe more useful than college in starting to work a job. But its value plays out fast, even the most of the training itself becoming obsolete within a few years. Learning to become an independent adult in college lasts a lifetime, and makes for a better career. Especially when your career, or industry, changes. That's why spreading this education over twice as long (or more ;) in college, along with a variety of other courses and students, is so much more valuable. But the trade school is better than no higher education than just high school, and probably a more realistic path for thousands of people each year than expensive, and largely mediocre, colleges. And as a post-liberal-arts degree, it sounds like the best balance.
--
make install -not war
Well many of you said that during university years there's a lot of crap, and that peeps don't go to univ. to learn... and I could continue.
Thing is, there are some of us who do. I mean after 4-5 years of univ. time (for me it was 2 degrees - partially - in parallel, done in 7 years) you just prove one thing: you can keep up, can do your thing and still be able to concentrate on other matters that don't precisely relate to your major(s). That you can learn new things quickly and adapt to new challenges and requirements.
And on that I don't just mean learning a new programming language, but the ability to quickly familiarize yourself to new systems, concepts, designs and ideas. One can get a way of thinking and attitude that can't be picked up in 2 years of coders' crash-course.
And besides, it's not always the things you pick up on lectures that prove to be themost important, sometimes it's what you pick up between them. That also needs time (which 2 years can't possibly provide).
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Half the time, half the value.
Why would I as an employer want to take a risk with someone who didn't take the time to invest in themselves with a "proper" education, who didn't have the patience or commitment to work their asses off for 4 years to prove they have staying power, or who are so narrow-minded as to not see the value of learning anything outside of the core requirements for a degree. I've met many such people in the dot-com heyday and I have one word to describe them: BORING. And their output generally reflected their input: limited and unimaginative.
I might hire someone like that as an assistant to the server admin, but I definitely wouldn't want them on a software development team where the exchange of ideas and experiences, and the ability to think critically is at least as valuable (and probably more so) as knowing a programming language.
Since I graduated in 1995, tuition at the University of Iowa has tripled. It has done so because the school has locked itself into a number of expensive construction projects and is not able to reduce its cash flow needs to match the decreasing state revenue.
From what I can tell, the quality of instruction has not tripled since my graduation. Even moreso, students that I have advised to pursue Oracle DBA certification as technical electives have been repeatedly refused, even though the university listed Oracle certification as for-credit courses.
The CS departments of most universities have been bought off by Microsoft to the extent that they already spend over a year teaching Visual Basic. They do not use open tools, and their administrative structure reflects this close-minded and obsolete path.
IMHO, State Universities are run in a cartel system that has seen its fair share of waste and corruption. Any ideas for a system that could effectively compete with the public university cartel would be welcome indeed.
What a novel idea, teach people only the stuff they'll actually need in the real world and don't bother with the useless bullshit.
I dropped out of Drexel University in 1993 because the Computer Science curriculum sucked ass and Computer Information Systems wasn't much better-- and I was far from the only one. When I switched majors, I was told that a large percentage of CS majors switch to CIS there. (Maybe that should have been a clue to them that something was amiss with the CS program?)
In the intervening 11 years, my career has not been hurt one bit by me missing out on all the chemistry and physics classes Drexel wanted to cram down my throat. Shockingly, no chemistry or physics problems have ever come up as part of my job as a Systems Integration Consultant. I've also done just fine for someone without a degree.
This is so sad. College isn't about just learning your major; it's also a place where you can widen your horizons. By cutting out liberal arts programs they are significantly reducing the value of the education. It's not enough to program, you also need to be able to talk to your users and clients, understand subjects outside your narrow field, and just get along with people who aren't engineers.
My wife is in an accelerated business (BA) program. Nothing is cut out: it's the same curriculum as the normal program, just that classes are over in 8 weeks instead of 14 and many classes are offered online. It's an intense workload and not for the unmotivated, but the upside is you get done faster and for those of us who learn quickly and are always bored waiting for the class to catch up, it would be a godsend!
Northface University is fully accredited by the ACICS (http://www.acics.org/)--the same accreditation body governing the Art Institute of New York City, the Schiller International Universities in Europe, Potomac College in D.C., and many others.
..while it doesn't come in handing here at work I did get get laid a few time.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
So someone should spend 4 years in college so they can hold their own at one of your parties?
WTF?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Whether they know WebSphere and Microsoft stuff is entirely irrelevant. So if the top bullet item of a BSCS degree from Northface is these certifications, I'm unimpressed.
If I have a job that just needs a code monkey, I can hire any of a zillion people that read "Learn C++ in 21 days" for that.
College is a lot more then just learning a trade. This seems more along the lines of a very expensive trade school. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but this seems much different than a more traditional 4 year school and should be treated as such.
I think going for a 2 year tech degree is a great move for lots of people.
Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise - William Shakespeare
Seems that this is a pretty narrow look at the whole computer science field. Glancing at the curriculum it seems it's mostly focused on webapps. While I keep hearing that webapps are 'the wave of the future' I think maybe knowing how to do lower level stuff is important. Looks like a pretty dull curriculum to be honest.
To compare to my school (Oregon Institute of Technology, 4yr Software engineering degree) we actually get most of our stuff done in the first two years. The last two years are mostly reserved for the Junior and Senior projects. We also get some interesting classes into our curriculum like Compilers, Operating Systems and Data Structures.
On second thought, have you SEEN the tuition? 28 to 30k a year . For that kind of $$, I want more than a Microsoft Cert or two rubber stamped on my head.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Yes, Northface gets you through in 2 1/2 years as opposed to 4. We're also here at school, in classes, from 8 a.m. - 4 p.m. While the total number of years is less, I think the total amount of time in school (including homework) is quite comparable.
Yes, I'd like to see a bit more math. I personally love math, and have passed up to Calc II. That's the one thing I miss about traditional Universities.
Umm, not teaching critical thinking or hardware architecture? Okay, I agree there's no class specifically titled "Critical thinking" or "Hardware Architecture". But it's definitely there sprinkled in by the professors in their lectures. Dr. Halpin (ORM and databases) in particular puts a lot of logic problems into his assignments and lectures. Algorithm development has not been specifically taught yet (i.e., can you write a B-tree), but I'm only in my 2nd quarter here.
The software development cycle and software architecture are heavily emphasized. I'm in a project team now that's working on things that my brother-in-law (who graduated with a BSCS from the University of Utah) never dreamed of getting into. Homework assignments in the traditional setting get you to work on problems. Project work at Northface gets you to work on all those problems and then see how they interact with each other.
There's lots more to say. But there are probably a hundred other posts in the discussion that I need to catch up on. I emailed the other students here at Northface and encouraged them to post their experiences, so we'll see how this goes. It's no Ivory Tower over here, but I'll disagree with anyone who says we're not getting the people skills or the critical thinking experience that comes from a 4-year.
Darned tropical millipede! What's it doing in our apartment?
Northface University is NOT just a tech school. We study gen-ed courses just like everyone else. Only difference in the gen-ed courses is that they are cover topics related to CS. For example, our history class will be the history of computing and our speech and writing classes allowed us to talk about computer stuff. (Besides, what else would a nerd want to talk about!? ;-)
We are in classes for 35 hours each week and have an average of 9 hours of homework each week (the homework time varies greatly depending on your learning ability and previous experience). It's equivelant to a full-time job and then some!
We don't just study programming, either! A lot of time has been spent studying modelling--UML and ORM.
We wish we had some way of showing some of the awesome projects we've created in the first 2 1/2 quarters (15 weeks of class). Faculty at NU have been showing the projects to the high-ups at the school's partners (VP's at IBM, Microsoft, Oracle) and they have been impressed. One client stated his amazement at how one project team had taken a project that they didn't know was considered near impossible and made it work in eight weeks. We're no slackers, for sure!
Progamming and adminstering machines isn't computer science. Those degree programs are jokes.
I don't know about you, but after two years of my CS education, I was nowhere close to ready for the real world. Now, I was one of those people who had never programmed anything before my freshman year of college, but still how do you expect to learn anything meaningful after two years? Are they going to breeze through C and c++ in the first quarter only to have you write an OS or compiler the next? Most people can't ramp up that quickly. There is a lot more to programming than just learning how to code... you have to learn how to think. And sometimes you just need time to mature a little and build up your knowledge base of tips, tricks, and troubleshooting practices.
"Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
Northface University is about five minutes from my house. Any requests while I'm in the neighborhood (T-shirts, anyone?), before I go to the competition? I wonder if their WiFi is strong enough...
This is impossible, along with CS courses, in two years.
The problem is they should call the program a degree in "Computer Technlogy" and degree holders should be "Computer Technicians."
I may trust them to crimp connectors on my Ethernet cables, but they're not going to be doing any heavy lifting!
Best Buy can have you arrested
After college I couldn't find work so I ended up working at a wine boutique. I was pretty serious in studying wine, and also went to a LOT of tastings. After about a year of working there, my tolerance shot up to levels that I couldn't beleive; I could drink a bottle of wine by myself without realizing it. All of my wine drinking was done in small amounts over a long period of time, almost daily.
It's been about a year since I've found a job in this industry, so I haven't really touched any alcohol since. However I do notice that my tolerance has gone down a bit when I go to a bar to hang with some friends, but it seems like it'll never be as weak as it was when I was back in college.
Interestingly, with the amount of alcohol I consumed, I'm suprised I haven't developed a serious addicition to it. I was actually worse off while drinking in college because of the binging. But then again, I don't drink wine to get drunk.
Don't hire anyone from Northface University.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
This society has moved further and further away from the ideals rooted in the enlightenment of which valued knowledge for the sake of knowledge. We have high schools that train workers and colleges that prepare professionals for a career. Where is the read education these days? I guess what's considered best for society these days is what's supposedly best for the economy: a bunch of trained monkeys who produce junk for other trained monkeys to consume.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
I went to the University of New Brunswick (A Canadian School). We were not allowed to take a Math Minor at all. The reason being that the degree essentially contained a Mathematics minor and more. Half of my CS courses were really Math courses (Like Numerial Methods and Discrete Structures).
At the University of Waterloo, there is no CS department. Those who take CS get a Mathematics degree in Computer Science.
Electrical Engineering is to an electrician as Computer Science is to
A) parking attendant
B) IT professional
C) hamburger flipper
D) disk jockey
"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?" --Yoda {whips out green light saber}
Everyone has been talking about how this is going to lack diversity, but there's another important point to be made here.
I'm a senior Computer Science major at a top-tier liberal arts institution, and have been through almost all of the major, and a lot of other courses in the process of completing my degree. Here's my main comment- I'm getting the broad-based knowledge that I consider to be extremely useful in terms of general employment, but what's notable is what I DON'T have as a result of this education. The ability to program well enough to get a job doing it.
A four-year CS major doesn't necessarily mean you know ANYTHING about proper programming practice, systems organization, or anything even remotely related to the workings of a computer. Virtually all of my knowledge of these things comes from my own efforts either before college or independant of anything curriculum-related.
Hell, most of the CS majors can't even fix their own computers, much less write software that won't break someone else's.
The issue, then, isn't with a shorter or longer curriculum, but with the individual programs... Certification doesn't seem to mean much, as far as I can tell.
Trust me, I'm not saying your degree won't provide you valuable information and training for a successful career in IT or software development. I'm simply saying that graduate programs at major universities do not look favorably on certain accreditation, ACICS included.
Call a few local Universities with graduate programs in Computer Science and ask if they accept a degree with ACICS accreditation as sufficient for admission to their graduate programs. I'd be willing to be most will say that it is not. The University of Phoenix has the same problem.
If you're not going to grad school, this is completely irrelevant.
What these big companies are getting is trained workers with skills they need, and they don't pay a dime for it. All the risk is on the student, because if they are the 301st member of the class and only 300 of the class gets hired, the student is out of $60k and with a Computer Science degree (although it sounds more like Software Developer degree, more technical than scientific). IE he has all the technical skills, but no personal skills and will have hard time rising into management.
TANSTAAFL
E. Dijkstra: Computer Science is no more about
.net certification is not a computer science course. It is probably not even a software engineering course.
computers than astronomy is about telescopes
Anything that brags about java and
It is probably a programming course.
I've been studying CompE at U of Illinois for 2 years (and have many CS friends), and I have to agree with you on the construction stuff. Tuition has been way up lately (don't know if it's tripled in the last decade but there've been several recent increases) and we're putting up lots of new buildings in Engineering (as well as a new indoor gym on top of the field where I used to play frisbee and run sprints) while the old historic buildings on the main quad are falling apart.
However, we haven't been bought out by Microsoft, and I've never seen or heard of a CS class here taught in Visual Basic except for the ones for business majors that teach them how to make nifty buttons and stuff in Excel spreadsheets (an application for which it makes sense).
this program seems great for those with 4 year degrees that have been out of school for awhile, and are interested in changing career paths to the IT field... assuming the gen eds would be fullfilled with your previous BS/BA.
With the focus on trendy skills and certification you are basically getting a highly "outsourceable" degree. Ignoring the basics of learning and the "softer" skills will keep you in a small replaceable tech box and basically doom (not DOOM 3, MyDoom, etc.) your career. When are they going to hire Sally Struthers as a spokeswoman? Maybe they can hire Carly Fiorina in her place?
And yes, there are scattered cases of people who eschewed college and did very well. I'd wager there are even more people who didn't attend college and wound up in fast food. A degree gets your foot in the door.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Man, I bet you have a lot of intelligence information to back up those claims. ...
well?
--
lds
The difficulty with this program's goals is that they are incorrectly equating the skills needed for a computer science degree with what the CURRENT job market needs are that can be satisfied with a CS degree. A college education educates. A trade school trains. This is a trade school pretending to give a BS CS diploma. I'm sure they could never get an ABET accedited Computer Engineering degree out of this nonsense.
I graduated from a traditional computer science degree (a real one). I joined a small company with two people in my year; one of them was like me a top student, the other was a pretty good student.
The company also recruited a number of people with a more technical background.
We were all good programmers. In 12 months, those of us with the more theoretical degree were team leaders, and the others were working under us. If it was one, perhaps a coincidence. Not for all three.
"If life really isn't about earning money so you can buy "stuff" then why go to college at all? "
There's one very good reason for getting a higher education. Building a better citizen. One who can have an intelligent conversation on Slashdot, about politics, economics, law, and philosophy. Not to mention the basics of spelling, grammer, and math.
If fruits of one's actions don't mean anything to you? Look at a lot of the Slashdot posts. A better argument couldn't be found, for education in general, and higher-education specifically.
Look at the overall system we have in the US. Read some of the material back when the US was young. Better writing, and reasoning. Now look at the present, were we need things like Eubonics, and "No child left behind" policies.
We in the US are slipping, and slipping badly.
Where I went to school frequently comes up in job interviews.
And I've only had four job interviews and two jobs since I graduated.
The degree can be seen as a statement from the school certifying you, in which case the value of the degree is entirely correlated to the school you got it from.
Think of a degree as legal tender, and each school as a different country. Does the country from which the banknote is issued make a difference in it's value?
I would have to say yes.
GPL Deconstructed
Maybe you went to the wrong school... but a lot of places seem to value the school you went to, and are willing to take 'college hires' and train them up to be fully productive.
I certainly got a lot from my degree... too bad you couldn't wring as much from yours.
GPL Deconstructed
Anybody can learn a trade. With enough practice and on-the-job training, one can be a programmer, or a musician, or a medic, or an architect, or anything else that a degree officiates.
A university degree is not about learning a trade. Given enough bodies, you too can be a brain surgeon.
So what does a diploma mean?
It means that when presented with a sometimes arduous, sometimes tedious, often times overwhelming task... you did not stop working.
When faced with a charge that spanned several years and consisted of a great variety of challenges... you did not quit.
When given the option to take the easy way out at any time, with no consequences... you did not relent.
A university diploma means you saw a challenge through to completion.
You can fake your way through any class. Everyone reading this at one time or another learned just enough to pass a course. Cliff Notes, test-taking strategies, last-minute cramming, and desperate memorization of theorems and equations. A gentleman's C, mission accomplished.
You can fake an Intro to Calculus class. But when faced with subsequent courses, with each building on the class before it, it becomes impossible not to learn the material.
You learn, or you go away.
I speak from experience. I'm no natural. But I was persistant. It took 5 years for me to become a capable math student. But I learned. And I can still open my textbooks and solve the problems.
A university degree means you *have been*, and *can be* taught.
This school doesn't offer that. It's learn, dump, repeat.
As a trade school, I'm sure it's fine. But as a "univerity?" It's a McEducation. It's a joke.
Pomme de Terre!
College is by all acounts a peice (sic) of crap. For the computer scientist, it really doesn't DO anything for you.
It doesn't really do anything for YOU - for me it was worth every penny.
My life is larger than the 40-60 hours a week I spend in front of a computer. I have relationships, hobbies, and disciplines which are not at all related to my degree. College helped me to round out my knowledge. Yes, I can read literature now, and a writer can learn calculus in his spare time, but why limit yourself? Aren't we both enriching our lives by learning something that deviates from our normal preferences? After college, can I get the face time with a published professor to do so? Not bloody likely. Learn as much as you can while you can. Much of the knowledge might not help you earn a paycheck, but my life is more than an effort to get a good review from my manager.
Will I ever publish a book on history? Probably not. Does my understanding of modern and ancient history give me a better perspective on modern politics and other social affairs? Absolutely. We go to work so that we can eat and stay warm, but aren't literature and the other arts some of the true achievements of humanity? It is proof of having risen above our past station as hunter and gatherer. I've quoted Dostoevsky before on ./: Beauty will save the world. Is this not worthy of your money and focused attention? Is it not the duty of the universities to carry out this mission? Altruism is a *learned* state of maturity, you are not born with it.
As for the "practical", "career relevant" part of this discussion, this Northface U is nothing but a trade school. Trade schools are fine, if you want to be the career equivalent of a plumber. Good plumbers make lots of bucks, but they're for the most part drones that follow the path of the plumber who taught them. It's a skill; a memorized list of things to do - a machine following an algorithm, if you will. I went to school to learn about many aspects of my chosen vocation. I'm NOT just a drone who can accomplish one trade and one set of tasks. College taught me to think creatively, and to blend ideas across many disciplines to solve problems.
And as for whether or not someone's 'High School' (sic) taught them to write a five paragraph essay, I know many, many bright people who couldn't write their way out of a tampon box. If you think your 12th grade lit class was the be-all and end-all of writing prose, you are indeed the poster boy for why full general education-based degrees are still necessary.
The world needs more Renaissance thinkers, people who can apply their skills with a sense of maturity and responsibility. Frankly, I wouldn't for a second think of hiring someone to develop or manage the development of a commercial software product, if I knew that they'd not written so much as a five paragraph essay since high school. How banal, how shallow.
Northface University is fully accredited by the ACICS
Just about anyone can get accredited with ACICS as long as pay the money and are a halfway decent school willing to put on a good show when ACICS comes and checks them out. If you look at the list of institutions accredited by ACICS you'll see that it is mostly trade schools and art institutes. You aren't going to find MIT or even your local state college on that list.
Every second page is removed.
A recruiter representing the school's sponsors, IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, and Unisys, added, "These companies aren't really looking for people, as such, to work for them. They much prefer pre-fab, pre-integrated, CPU's or 'Carbon Programming Units.' These CPU's represent the ultimate achievement of our modern educational system. They have been super efficiently manufacturededucated to have exactly and only the skills required of them to meet the job descriptions that Fortune 1000 managers request."
Northface spokesman John Smith explained, "Let's say you are a manager at a large company and you need a CPU to work on your PeopleSoft general ledger system. You would send an order to the school with the appropriate boxes checked. In just two to four weeks, we will ship you a carbon programming unit that meets your exact specifications! This unit will know all about PeopleSoft general ledger work. And it won't come with any extraneous skills that would just get in the way. It won't know anything about data structures or algorithms. It won't be burdened with knowledge of Visual Basic or Java or English. In fact, it won't even really know how to survive by itself -- it's up to you, the manager, to be sure to instruct your janitorial staff to clean the unit at night to prevent unwanted organic residue buildup. You should also assign someone to supply the unit with vending machine coffee and fuel, such as candy bars. Then, when your company switches from PeopleSoft to SAP a few months later, you can just dispose of the unit with a simple layoff. No severance is required -- all units are preprogrammed to be grateful just to have the chance to work for someone like yourself! Open the door and the unit will activate its secondary programming. It will seek out the nearest McDonalds and become a burger flipper. No troublesome human resources issues! What could be more thrilling?"
Asked why General Electric wasn't participating in the school, CEO Jeff Immelt expounded, "We were using domestic carbon programming units years ago, but found they were too expensive. A school like Northface costs almost $87 per unit. We've now constructed a factory in Singapore, with future expansion plans in China, that can construct almost unlimited numbers of units for us at a cost slightly less than a dollar each. That's the power of 6smegma in action! That tremendous cost savings is the engine that has fueled the exponential growth of this company's officers' personal investment portfolios. That's where the future lies! No longer will a CEO, COO, or CFO's portfolio be limited to double-digit growth per year. This kind of forward thinking exploitation of the carbon unit race will drive wealth creation for the privileged few to undreamed-of levels."
I dropped out of school halfway through. I couldn't deal with it. Even the CS courses were theoretical hogwash that did nothing to improve my coding or my systems admin abilities; the non-CS courses were even worse. I already knew all I'd ever need to know about English, if I wanted to learn history I'd read history books, and math? Hah. Don't even get me started on math. My school required four years of Calculus (!!!), as well as Discrete Math and other assorted hellpits, just to get a BS in CS.
After entering college as a National Merit Scholar, with an SAT score of 1540, from one of the highest ranked public high schools in my state, I dropped out after a couple of years-- I couldn't take it psychologically. To this day I have nightmares-- literal nightmares-- about Calculus. I wish that was a joke.
Wanna know how many times I've had to use any math above algebra in all the years I've been a programmer?
ONCE.
And it was Trig (just barely above algebra in complexity). Certainly not Calc...
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Northface often combines what would normally be many courses at a 4-year school into one course. For example, last quarter my CS class was 17 credits and was taught by four different instructors throughout the course of a day. Keep in mind that the school is still required to have a certain amount of classroom lecture and/or lab time per credit awarded.
People here argue that Northface provides a very incomplete university experience, but I think a much more glaring flaw in their system is the way they call application programming "Computer Science." I think someone needs to tell Northface to stop confusing Software Development with CS. Where are all the goodies like data structures and algorithms in their so-called "CS" curriculum? Providing almost no theoretical foundation in CS, Northface is nothing more than a trade school.
I'm a student at a 4-year college right now, and I think there are good things about it.
I also think that there's way too much bullshit that people do, having the "time of their lives" just drinking their asses off and not taking any responsibility while blowing their parents' money.
I try not to let those people bother me, but I know plenty of people that just can't deal with it and don't want to be in that kind of atmosphere. And for many people a two-year mostly-technical program is a good change. For a lot of people, a career is just a way to make money; if that means they're not perfectly well-rounded computer scientists, that might not be important to them as long as they can get paid and enjoy the rest of their lives.
There are many valid things that young adults can do to get educated, and this is one of them.
Sounds like "Engineering" to me.
"Science" is how things work, not how to work things. A "Real" "Computer Science" degree should teach about how computers work: physics, circuit theory, state machines, compilers, applied mathematics, management of complexity, etc. This degree sounds more like "Computer Systems Engineering" to me.
There may be a few liberal arts majors who can learn to "program in any language" in a couple months but only about as many as can learn quantum mechanics.
Some people are better at some things than others, and most liberal arts majors are terrible at the sort of ordered thought that becoming an good programmer requires. Whether that's innate or the product of years of liberal arts thinking, I couldn't say, but it's definitely the case.
FWIW I too used to think I could teach _anyone_ to program. That was before I started teaching for a living.
So, what if you've had a lifelong interest in computing, and a distaste for formal education. You dropped out of college during the boom, got a pretty good job and several years of rapidly advancing experience. All your friends who stayed in college wish they'd dropped out too because now they've graduated into a lousy job market and are having a hell of a time getting any decent experience under their respective belts.
But you are beginning to wish you had that piece of paper, you think you can probably keep doing pretty good without it, but you wonder where the cieling is without it.
A program like the one this article about is appealing because of how quickly you can get it out of the way, but it just doesn't seem appropriate because it being so specific technology based, you probably already know a significant majority of it.
What you most ideally want educationally isn't the fundamentals of all of computer science, but access to a body of applied experience on dealing with large complex projects. Design is your biggest weakness because you've been flying by the seat of your pants, your experience is filling in the gaps naturally, but you really wish there was somebody to mentor with that had at least some of the answers, right now most people look to you for solutions and as you look behind at what you've created, you see so much room for refactoring its kind of painful.
Is there an ideal solution? Taking the quick program to just get the piece of paper seems like it could be the most insanely easy thing to do. But can you get the piece of paper in a quick way and get an educational experience that is actually useful? What about simply expanding your horizons in a totally new direction? What kind of rapid degree programs are there in other fields?
I've made a great wage programming such apps for years, and I've never had to use any math more challenging than your basic accounting and finance formulas.
"True" computer science majors belong working for enterprise providers, the microsofts, the SAPs, Oracle, etc. A business programmer simply doesn't need alot of the crap that CS degrees shove down their throats. If I'm hiring a business developer I want them to know the microsoft toolset, have a relational database class, a few high level languages (C#, VB, Java), some web experience (PHP, ASP
Another observation I've had about 4 year degrees (having one myself and working with younger coders who do) is that most college level courses just don't touch the depth that is necessary to be a successful coder immediately in the field. A programming course usually goes like this:
Hello World
Variable declarations
Loops and conditional logic
File IO
Database access / oo concepts (depends on the language and instructor)
Hell, I mentored a new grad who claimed to have gotten an A in c++ but didn't know what an object was. Talk about wanting to break down and cry.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Ohio State: Computer Science in twice the time.
How about a useful Certification like CCNA, CNE, or even Linux+? Better yet a Linux Engineer Cert. You know, the ones that actually mean a better paycheck!
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
10 out of 10 Terrorists agree - Anybody but Bush in 2004
What has Bush done to make the terrorists quake in their boots???
Everyone here who says that it isn't a CS degree is absolutely right, there isn't nearly enough math, and no serious study of computer architecture or internal workings. If I had to guess, I'd say that this curriculum wasn't geared so much to making coders or system administrators or anything of the sort, but rather, managers who can relate to their underlings to a certain degree.
I didn't go to college (wustl.edu) to learn IOS or how to handle SNMP Traps or how to make my perl run in `use strict.`
I went to college to meet people, grow up a little, have fun and gain some broad experiences.
Then again, I was an Anthropology major and discovered that the more I partied the better I did academically.
Going to some fast-track corporate college is not really the same thing as collge, it's just another certification if you ask me. There's something to be gained from slumming it in a dorm for a year or two, living in a frat house and managing an apt with your friends.
Clearly, YMMV.
-davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
I think they're a big part of a real CS degree. I mean, wtf? You just go and get certified for Windows 200X, or Version Y of some major software? That's a recipe for obsolesence. Might as well just STUDY Latin, because in ten years, more people will be using Latin than anything you'll be certified in today.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
In my opinion (I'm a grad student in cognitive science, but by bachelor's degree is in Mechanical Engineering, of all things) a significant fraction of CS and Engineering students don't belong in a university. University is supposed to be about making a well rounded problem-solving person, but it doesn't seem to work for technical subjects (was any of your coursework useful for this?), but it also evidently isn't too important in industry, since the students get by fine.
I think that there is a purpose for some people to study "Computer Science", but as a branch of mathematics. The rest, who apparently want to become code monkeys, don't need a university education.
The problem is that modern society considers a university degree to be such a mark of prestige that one can get little respect without one, so employers require it, even if what is taught is no more useful than could be provided by a community college.
Good code monkeys are necessary, but I put them in the same class as good plumbers and electricians. Very important work, well paid, but no university education required.
I believe you meant "semantics"...
What's the big deal with getting certifications? It's like the difference between an electrician and an electrical engineer. They should both be able to wire your house, but I would only want one of them designing our power grids.
I am behind a firewall, so that explains my name, I can't create an account.
I am a student from NU. Many people have made a lot of very uneducated assumptions about this school. I would just like to set them all straight.
1. It is a trade school.
This school is accredited by the accredidation board because the college is actually Morrison University (Which has been around for more than a century)
2. It doesn't have enough life classes(ie pointless electives).
I personally find that electives distract me. This school does require writing classes, language classes, history classes, and yes, even a PE credit or two. We have to jump through all of the same hoops as everyone else at other universities.
3. 28 months isn't enough
We actually spend more time than the average person seeking a BS. We spend 9 hours ever day in school. On average, I also spend about 2 hours a day outside of school working on homework. This totals out close to 5800 hours for this school.
4. You won't learn enough
I went to a pre-med school before this one. Including HS and pre-med, I have learned more at this school in 5 months than the rest of my education combined.
People who get on here and rag on this school have no idea what they are talking about. The motivation of this school is not to make mindless drones. We actually determine what our own assignments are (as long as they contain elements thay are wanting us to learn ie. new algorithms and implementation of databases and/or XML) I have worked on everything from a game where you kill Orlando Bloom to a program our team jokingly called "InLook" (an OutLook look alike)
Is it that other people and other universities are feeling threatened by a new "something" or is it just that people are ignorant?
Email me with questions and/or comments please, don't knock the school until you know a bit more.
I'm a bit confused... Chosing to hire someone with a LA degree is your decision but I've heard guys from companies such as Oracle, IBM, UNISYS, Microsoft, and CGI say they would hire someone from Northface over someone from a regular Liberl Arts college. Don't believe me? Check out IBM's recent press release: http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss?Me nuChoice=pressreleases&TemplateName=ShowPressRelea seTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7237&TableName= DataheadApplicationClass&SESSIONKEY=any&WindowTitl e=Press+Release&STATUS=publish/
College is designed to train minds to think critically, absorb, process, and analyse, all while rounding the individual to the point where no matter what they pursue, they will be equipped.
The commercialization of education is a giant bowel movement on the Arts and Humanities educational system that has served our planet so well for so long.
Keep your fucking "job skills" movement out of my university.
"Now earn your Bachelor's in Food Service Online from the University of Phoenix in half the time!"
2 year fast-track C(I)S degree: $60,000
Black Wall Mart suit and tie for job interviews: $75
Figuring that working in IT sucks while you're still young: priceless.
Really, I don't think a degree is even necessary for smart kids. Others, well, they will need to get a degree at least. If someone really wants to get into computer science and eventually do something a little more interesting with computers, then they should think about spending some time in school. I'd like to be in grad school right now, it's not like I can do endless theorizing and R&D at my job, what with the company needing to show some profits and all.
TallGreen CMS hosting
This is probably being written far too late for someone to notice, but I'm going to waste my time anyway (I'm waiting for a test to run, so I have some time to burn). I end up running into a lot of very bright kids these days who are just finishing up high school and looking at what to do for their education. Some of them are looking at these two year game development schools, or two year software development schools. Every time I give them the same advice: pick a school that is going to give you a well rounded education beyond your immediate career path. Don't just study CS and learn how to be a C++ god. Learn how to write, how to speak, about history, math, science, art, whatever. The more you are exposed to, the more useful it is going to be to you later in life. That's not just a trite phrase-its reality. It is very rare today for someone to stay in the same career path or field for their whole lives-market factors, human factors, any number of things can and will force changes in your planning. The better rounded you are, and the better able to adapt, the better chance you have of changing professions successfully. As it is, I look back on my education at Penn State (EE degree, I'm a software engineer now), and some of the courses I think of most fondly had absolutely nothing to do with my career-but they were a lot of fun and I'm very glad to have taken them.
If you want to go to one of these trade schools and in two years hit the job market, go for it, but the guy who waits another two (or four or six, depending on degree) years is probably going to be able to better mold his career path to the needs of his life.
Yup, you're right. They're not going to spend 4 years learning how to use semantic programming to decipher the alcohol content off the 3 dozen microbrew labels they scanned on their automated erector set, have time to setup a full web page devoted to it, and blog about it all day.
In two years they'll be working.
Just saying that yeah, they might not have a huge exposure to a little about everything. Maybe they'll make less than 65% of their 4-year counterparts. But they are just looking to be hard-core coders, nothing more, nothing less, and if a company can get 3 of them for the cost of 2 of the 4-years, they will.
Perhaps there's just a little envy there, or is it fear? In either case on the next downturn methinks the cheap, skilled, less burdened by ego trade coders will supplant the remaining "real" CS types, thinning the herd even more than already has happened.
They are called Indians.
> and maybe half the fluff removed that will have no bearing on real-world employment?
Do you plan on spending the rest of your life at work? In ten years, do you think you'll be doing the exact same job using the exact same technology anyway? At $60,000, I think it would be cheaper to get the Java and .Net certs on your own.
There's something to be said about a liberal arts education (as opposed to a purely vocational one) that prepares you for a life of continual learning. While being a well-rounded individual may not be much of a resume-booster, it's a nice life-booster.
Consider the idea of software design patterns borrowed from the field of architecture. I submit that someone with a broad liberal arts education would be better able to formulate and clearly communicate such an idea than someone who is merely trained like a circus chimp.
Do your underlings know you post to Slashdot Mr. Anonymous?
Taking two years of courses and having certification in WebSphere and Microsoft stuff does not make you a computer scientist--it just makes you a programmer.
There's a difference.
From working with developers of all sorts as part of what I do, I can tell you that there's a clear difference between someone who simply learned to code from reading a book on EJB development and someone who took enough courses in networking protocols, systems design and compilers to know that using HTTP to send 4 bytes of data from point to point is a bad idea.
It takes more than simple practical knowhow to actually be thoroughly trained in a field. A two-year certification program is just that...
jfr
***Foucault is watching you..***
In my CS Curriculum, I take 4 4-unit classes for 8 semesters, for a total of 120 units. Each class has 3 hours of lecture and 4 hours of lab/discussion on average, per week.
7 hours * 4 classes * 16 weeks = 448 hours per semester, not including out-of-class work. That makes about 3600 hours for the 4 years.
But keep in mind the sheer amount of information that has to be crammed into those 3600 hours. I have to take physics (mechanics, waves, e&m, thermo, relativity, basic quantum), chemistry, etc.
I have to take math, through 3D calc, diff eq, and linear algebra.
I have 6 humanities requirements to fulfill.
There are 5 basic lower-div EECS courses that are required: circuits, signals&systems, SICP, Data structures, and assembly/verilog (I don't see assembly in their curriculum!!).
An upper-division design course is required as well, and more upper-div EECS courses.
Sure, at a trade school (for that's what it is) you get an education in a narrow field with only one direction to go. But at a large Uni you learn the basics of everything, and choose to specialize in something that genuinely interests you.
Of course, you have to get in first.
I run my own company, they can't take my job, I'm perfectly capable of lazing myself out of my own job, thank you very much.
I also wasn't dissing the course, as I pointed out elsewhere, these people will be the builders, compared to the Computer Science qualified software architects and engineers.
You are correct in that programming isn't an elite profession any more. That's because it isn't hard to do. Experience means a lot more than a lot of theoretical knowledge as well in the real world. Still doesn't mean that their diploma style degree will be treated as good as a full computer science degree.
These people aren't looking to be "hard core coders" either. They want to get a job that pays reasonably after they realised that their degree in classics isn't getting them anywhere, or that they have no other option in life. They won't have any desire for the subject. They might be thick as a short plank. Not that real CS graduates have much enthusiasm for any programming job that someone else wants them to do either.
For example, they are accredited, but it isn't because they had to work for it. From what I understand, they bought a small college that already had been accredited and then changed it and rebranded it as "Northface". Thus, I would be want to see how they fare in their next accreditation cycle before I spent two years there.
Also, look at their curriculum. They require 54 credits of General Education, including communications, history, philosophy, and physics. Sound good? It's really not; the same professors that teach the CS classes also teach the general education classes! That sends red flags up for me -- do you think that a Ph.D. in CS knows much about the American Revolution, Mark Twain, or, most of all, Healthy Living (PE 170 in their catalog)?
In the end, I suppose Northface is perfect for some people, but I am glad that I wasn't one of them.
Got home from work today and found a letter from "Northface" in the mailbox. It says on the front "You're serious about software. So are we." That's funny, I thought I was a network guy and Mechanical Engineering student... hmmm.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Don't work for Gregory John Casamento.
As opposed to what you get a public universities"?
In soviet russia, You ask not what country do for you, but what you do for country!
Oh wait...
10 out of 10 Terrorists agree - Anybody but Bush in 2004
I bet they don't. Someone else might punish their home country of Saudi Arabia.
So G. Booch is "jazzed" about this? Knocks him down a notch in my estimation...
That is all.
If those hours are actually true then I hope these people have no high buildings for jumping off of near them. Seriously I am lucky to be sane after a 15 or 18 hour quarter (yes quarter, thank you Ohio State). But a 20+ hr quarter you would be in class way too much. Not to mention the possible out of class work loads. Did I also mention that it is a two year program which a lot of employers just laugh at? While they are getting those 30k and 40k jobs we'll be getting those 50k and 60k jobs.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
For the most part, the people who do MIS, CIS, Northface type approaches to CS are really taking the easy way for a guaranteed comfort level in life. Sure, they can get good consulting jobs and might be future executives, but thats really as far as they can go. They don't have the depth of knowledge to create anything with their bare hands, concoct innovative ideas, or change the world. Companies like google, yahoo, intel, etc. were not founded by a guy who said he wanted to be a trained soldier for powerful companies; they were founded by people who had depth of knowledge, ideas, frusteration with the status quo. People who were passionate about what they did at all costs and put the risk of being poor below all else. So I say go ahead Northface and train your soldiers, it just makes innovation less competitive for the rest of us.
can't sleep. clowns will eat me.
Hmmm. A state system where taxpayers subsidize the education, or a private university where rich alumni subsidize the education. Sucks to have only two choices. :-(
I have a BSCS from a midsize State University (15,000 students, a dozen or so PhD programs, etc, etc). I also worked for the business college after graduation running their computer department (2 years Administrative Professional medium level) so I can speak from both sides, inside the system and outside the system.
The system sucks.
The professors either totally disregard the students, or else take positive enjoyment in making the educational process a nightmare. The parents pour in tens of thousands of dollars annually and the students get tens of hundreds of dollars of value out of the experience. The grades have little to nothing to do with acheivment and ability (I 4 pointed my math & CS classes and 2.5ed the LA snoozers - low 3 final average so I really don't have a bone to pick either way.) At the end a BSCS could proudly point to a stack of over 40 programs written! Proof that (s)he was computer literate. (This was back in the 80's when CS was all about programming. The bar might not be so stratospheric today)
I've got highschool age kids now and if there's an alternative to the American Collegiate system I'm all for checking it out. If I had to do it over again I would not spend one minute inside a lecture hall.
My 2 cents.
Is this supposed to sound impressive? I've never heard of any of those places.
I can't see why anyone would want to do this, in *today's* IT job market.
It'd be far wiser to go to a real school, take a broader range of courses, and get a minor in something useful, to combine with the CS knowledge or to use as a backup.
It would have been perfect had it started in 1996 or 1997, but *now*, such a narrow focus on IT seems like a bad way to go.
Didn't you hear the news? Nobody needs intelligence information to back up anythinhg anymore in the USA. Just go and do whatever, say whatever. And when questions are asked, just keep telling people you're still looking for said intelligence information until it no longer becomes relevant.
It all just sounds like an "extended" boot-camp. Besides that, that so called university is getting all the software for free but they're still charging a ton of money to take their cram courses.
I'm going to ask you questions about how you did in Calculus and Numerical Analysis. If you didn't take 3 semesters of Calc and at least one upper division Math elective, or if you did but promptly forgot it all, you're out the door. I won't actually *say* you're out the door, but when my boss asks me if you're go or no go for the team, I'll have to tell him, you don't have any math, any physics, and you'd be a liability to us.
One important point learned from my 4-year BSCS degree, is that Computer Science is an applied Math and Science. You NEED other knowledge to apply your computer skills to.
A 2-year BSCS is nothing more than a 2-year A.S. technical degree lacking practical upper level knowledge for applying the computer skills. It looks like a marketing attempt for a university to compete with popular community college degrees and justify higher cost per credit.
- Operating Systems or Networking
- Database Theory
- Compilers
- Data Structures and Algorithmic Analysis (MA 410 is a joke)
- A Languages Survey (exposure to Lisp/Prolog/ML/C/C++/whatnot)
- Algorithmic Analysis
- Multivariate Calculus, Linear Algebra or DiffEq
- Any flavor classes: AI, Graphics, Vision, Robotics, you name it.
Great. So after graduating from this place, I am qualified to do menial websphere development. As soon as the winds change, I get to go back to school again to learn the Next Big Vocational Thing.1. Geez, anyone can call themselves a "university" nowadays. A University provides graduate degrees. Northface "University" does not. It's a college or vocational school.
2. It's located in South Jordan, UT. Which is, to be kind, a dump. It's more or less the slums of Salt Lake City.
Hello all, WOW, there have been some very interesting posts about our UNIVERSITY! I would like to personally thank each and every one of you for the publicity. I work in the admissions department and would love to answer any questions you might have about our program. Please call me at our toll free number 1-866-622-3448. While some of you have valid points. The majority of these posts are made without any knowledge whatsoever of what is being done here. If you would like to know why over 50 global 1000 companies have partnered with Northface University, give me a call and I'll explain it to you.
Suck it up.
Free jacket with every dimloma if you sign up in the next 10 minutes!
I went to a decent university, with a good reputation in science and engineering. Few students graduated in just four years, most took four and a half to five. I got multiple B.S. degrees. Later I did a thesis-based M.S. in biochemistry which took 2.5 years full-time. I've worked for a number of years, and changed to the computer field. I'm working on an M.S. in computer science from Washington State, who required me to take all the core C.S. classes from the undergrad classes PRIOR TO ADMISSION.
Now they're trying to say that a couple of years, most of which is spent training for certifications, is eqivalent? My ruddy arse!
Universities are about the pursuit of knowledge, not job-training. If you want job-training, go to DeVry or similar trade school.
Germany has a far better system. The university and trade schools are complely different things. There are computer users and computer scientists. We're blurring the bloody lines, and it does a huge disservice to those who have put in the blood, sweat, and effort to become educated rather than trained.
Remember, any dumb animal can be trained, but only a human can be educated. Which are you?
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Sometimes employers can get a little too hung up on the lasting through university part. A good friend of mine completed a BSc (Hons) in math and comp sci. He then completed an M.Math at the University of Waterloo, which is hardly an "easy" school. He decided that he wanted to work as a computer programmer, but felt that his real interests lay in a specialized computer science topic, so he went on to complete 2 years in a M.Sc program at another reputable Canadian university. Just as he was about to start his thesis, his advisor (and the only real expert in this particular area at the school) left to take a position at another university. At the same time, my friend received an *excellent* job offer from a very well known engineering firm. So my friend left before completing the M.Sc, since he already had a B.Sc and M.Math, and the core courses from the M.Sc would hold him in good stead. About 4 years later, having worked his way up to a fairly senior level (given his age), he applied for a job at my company. The VP wouldn't give him a job, because he'd dropped out of his (second) masters program! The VP said that anyone who would drop out of a university program was sure to lack commitment. Of course, the VP had a 2-year tech diploma....And my friend has since gone on to much better things. That being said, I still think that completing university provides a strong commitment/endurance signal...assuming the full context of a situation is given due consideration. :)
-- SYS 64738 --
Northface U: It's like overclocking your education!
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
I'm sorry if you feel my comments were not helpful. I guess you can tell I feel strongly about all of this. Although I have decided to quit posting, I hope you can feel my love for the school and also, in some small way, consider that there may be more here than you realize. Genius is learning to ask the right questions. Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. -- Mark Twain We love you guys! You give us a reason for being. Thanks for tolerating our zeal. I hope we can integrate much of what you say to make Northface an even better place than it already is.
The term "bachelor's degree" is getting watered down. As everyone is noticing, this is a trade school and not a university. Calling the degree the same thing as what you get at a university is nothing short of encouraging the graduates to lie to future employers. I've never done hiring, but I hope they check the accreditation of universities rather than assuming that a BS is always the same.
I have nothing against trade schools, but I've met too many people with two year degrees who think they're smarter and better educated than university graduates...
For state schools, you only pay about 40-50% of the total tuition. It costs about $30,000 to educate one student per year at a state owned university (on average, in the country).
$30,000 x 4 = $120,000
With the exception of elite schools, most high quality private institutions run no more (and often significantly less) than $25,000.
$25,000 x 4 = $100,000
Now of course there's government regulation and red tape that keeps private institutions from lowering costs. But we'll ignore this for now, since we're already $20,000 below government education.
Of course, this is all assuming that you stay in the state where you go to get your state education from. You might end up paying more than your fair share of somebody else's education depending on how Socialized education is in that state. Or, you might move to a state that will drain you for less money for socialized education. Hmmm.
While I feel like typing, we can also compare standardized scores, law school entrance exam scores, average SAT scores, and so on between private schools vs public schools. The bottom line? Private schools provide a better education for less money.
People who cannot make themselves into worthy investments for private scholarship, grant, and loan dealers do not deserve to be in college. Not everybody has the right to go to college. We're not all born equal. We only have equal opportunity to EARN our way to school.
Of course, in this day and age, nobody wants to EARN anything. People want things given to them... of course at the expense of others.
(Taking my money to finance someone else going to school sounds a whole lot like theft to me.)
(Comparing private to public schools on the K-12 level is even less promising for public schools. Private schools often cost less than half of public schools, overall, and Catholic schools least of all. The verdict? Private schools prepare and educate students better than public schools. Home schoolers are often much better than either of those -- though one can easily count them into Private Schools and make public education even less good.)
Speckpot?
For CS what really counts is CSAB accreditation (http://www.csab.org/ ), and Northface University doesn't have this.
/ schoolall.asp
CSAB is now part of ABET (i.e., the accreditation organization for CE and EE). The list of accredited schools is at:
http://www.abet.org/accredited_programs/computing
dude, is that at QUT by any chance?
Hope not, I'm doing the same degree.
"trust me".
Not too convincing, is it sherlock? I'm sure you'll still vote for the shrub, anyway. :P
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
Potomac what?
I live in DC. What the hell is Potomac College?
Frankly I'm surprised to see this article on a reputable site like slashdot. NU is a low-tech school that is supported by the demons of hell and their unholy untersturmfuhrer, William Gates III. There is no linux in the curriculum, no unix, but a whole lot of marketing guys at the school saying "Yes" to their dark overlord network.
They are supposed to be turning out the best developers in the world, but meanwhile, they are stifling all creative and intellectual development of those students by regularly lying to them and milking money out of them through social programs that benefit the school's reputation.
I'm so rope
they call me Mr. Roper
I feel I have already missed the boat, I don't think I could go to a four year college, I don't make enough money at my current job to support myself, and I don't have anyone taking up the slack. How am I supposed to be able to get a education or degree in a short enough time frame to be able to take care of myself? Certifications. They prove I know my stuff, they make me learn the stuff, and I can ask for more money subsequently. I understand I will miss out on parties and other fun stuff if I don't goto a standard university but I don't have the time for those things if I wanted to. I seem to be stuck in limbo. How can I get an education and still have normal comodities like a car and food?
What we have here is people who want to get money. These people are in debt and are willing to follow any get rich quick scheme and that is what they have found. Preying mantis like benefactors appear on the scene to assist and provide.
I'm so rope
they call me Mr. Roper