Slashdot Mirror
Walmart Offers Sub-$500 laptop With Linspire
LehiNephi writes "Cnet reports that Walmart is offering a sub-$500 notebook running Linspire. The specs are less-than impressive: a 1GHz VIA C3 processor, 128 MB RAM, 30GB hard drive, and a plain vanilla CD-ROM. Seems overpriced for what you get, but cheap nonetheless. And yes, it does run Linux."
... you must be unfamiliar with Wal-Mart.
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
It DOES run linux?
Well, I think this is the reason there are no posts. ^_^
The "Rectractable Cable Lock for Laptops" seems a little unnessecary for this thing...
So, is this kinda thing gonna shoot us in the foot, and make Linux mean cheap in the public eye? And I mean cheap, NOT inexpensive.
But can it run Windows?
Not a bad value for those of us who do low-intensity work like back-end web development and don't have huge libraries of MP3s.
"and a plain vanilla CD-ROM" Wow! Both plain AND vanilla! Walmart to the T!
"You know Myra, some people might think you're cute. But me, I think you're one very large baked potato."
I realize that Wal-Mart is trying to reach the lower end of the market, but what about a good copy of Slackware and an Ebay bargain? Something tells me that a.) you will get a better installation (you will do it yourself and b.) there will be a little more horsepower for your buck with that purchase from Ebay. Just my $0.02, as that's what I did.
...yada yada yada!
-Randy
Now that IBM will no longer be making the wonderful Thinkpads, Wal-Mart has sprung this piece of quality upon the market.
It's from Wal-Mart...
Always...
Gotta love the cult of Wal-mart...
Ok, it run's linux, one good quality.
It's the cheapest new laptop you can buy...
Probably no quality.
Better to save and get a good computer that will last and be able to choose your own distro.
-D
I wonder if they include a disclamer for Linspire... a big red "DOES NOT INCLUDE MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP" on the box somewhere.
I'd almost wager that 80% of the people who buy these (or who buy a computer from WalMart in general) are n00bs, and will try returning the devices because 'there's no microsoft word or internet explorer on it'.
Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
WalMart is both the symbol and actualization of what is wrong with the USA. Remeber how much you love WalMart when that's the only job available to you, and the wages from your WalMart job are so low you can only afford to shop at WalMart.
Warts? They are more like sucking chest wounds.
Anyone who shops at WalMart is party to the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care.
Please send all UCE to scally@devolution.com so I can f
I really seem to have a thing against having linux on a machine, but then I need to go download each part that should be on the distribution CDs.
Sorry Linspire, but I am UNinspired by your install model.
Seriously, I feel bad for whoever is putting these together for WalMart. They just got a hugenormous client (WalMart) who will be both the best and worst thing that ever happened to them.
Where I work we split our time between trying to provide excellent service to our non-WalMart customers while keeping WalMart happy because they account for such a huge chunk of our revenue it's not even funny. And that's pretty normal for any company WalMart does business with.
Seems to be a stark contrast to what WalMart can really do. They buy in such great volumes, you'd think they could negotiate a price/feautre point that would make it more appealing to the masses. Guess they are just testing the (ingorance of) the waters...
This has a faster processor, bigger disk and more RAM than a standard PC from three years ago; what applications have turned up since then that require more than this?
My bank supports Mozilla and Firefox.
www.berkshirebank.com
Maybe it's time you switched banks?
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Did anyone else notice that it says "DVD" on it?
imagine a beowolf cluster of these
Keep in mind this is a notebook, and not a desktop. One for that price really isn't too bad, and would be excellent for someone doing basic computer usage. The biggest issue I see is that it is not windows. That's no big deal, however it can be for those who are not tech savy. With the draconian return policies of software, I can see unsavy users buying software thinking it will run, and finding out they can't.
I don't know about the author, but I remember the days when twin pentium 90's and 128 Megs of RAM were considered awesome....
That was about 10 years ago.
Sure, this thing isn't going to be a screaming game machine, but honestly, how much horsepower do you need for text editing, email, and some casual browsing, anyway?
Damn Small Linux, blackbox, and bluetooth, and I think I just found my next remote webserver admin tool. I can't justify $2k for a machine, but less than $600 (tax, etc) might make it really feasable.
Does anyone know how well these linux pc's at walmart are selling? Anyway to find out? I'd be extremely interested to know what if any actual numbers of grandma's at walmart have been sold a linux pc.
What I'm looking for is a cheap as possible laptop that has an nvidia video chipset, and no windows tax. I want to atleast be able to play UT2k4 on it.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
If you price out a 1GHz C3 board ($185) and a 14" monitor ($250) you are quickly topping out near $450. Considering that you get a finished system, it's a pretty decent price.
If this thing runs PXE boot it would make a great LTSP terminal after you remove the hard drive.
As South Park so eloquently pointed out... :)
Seems someone has been watching a bit too much South Park.
*Referring to South Park Episode # 8-09*
When I click on the "see larger image" link, I can SWEAR that there is a "DVD" logo next to the CD ROM's eject button. Any one else think so?
I have yet to see a half way low priced linux laptop with a built in wireless adapter when these days all of the lowest budget Windows laptops have them.
Play Command HQ online
K, got the laptop from Walmart, got my 30-case of Bud and NASCAR hat (also from Walmart), now to get that T-3 line through the trailer-park.
Here Here!!! I would love to be party of killing employer paid health care... and government health care... if we did, maybe there would be wal-marts selling insurance and health care.
Some people have no friggin concept of the economy and capitalism whatsoever. As if the great founders of America implanted a economic system based around freedoms and capitalism... but they had NO IDEA there would be someplace like Wal-Mart!!! I mean... we just can't compete!!!
Complete ignorance. People like you put us on the fast-track to protectionism and an isolated economy just so we can give the high-school dropout and union job with full benefits and garuanteed pay raises every year. Nevermind the complete loss of any motivation to outperform your peers and better yourself.
a 1GHz VIA C3 processor, 128 MB RAM, 30GB hard drive, and a plain vanilla CD-ROM. Seems overpriced for what you get, but cheap nonetheless.
I can't speak for the US market, but up here in Canada the cheapest new laptop runs you about $1,000, which is about $800 USD. Granted, this is with a 2+ ghz cpu, 256 MB RAM, 20-30GB drive and a dvd-rom.
However, to pay anything less than this requires checking out the used laptop market. Here we see such gems as a P3-700, 64-96MB RAM, 8-10GB drive selling for $5-600 all the time. Say about $4-500 USD.
I don't know about you folks, but this looks like a pretty nice deal for those folks who aren't planning on running Doom3 on their laptops. The ram's a bit scanty for any modern OS, but otherwise this is a perfectly good machine to do 99% of what people do with a laptop.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
The problem with Linspire (Lindows) is that it isn't quite Linux (yes, I know it really is Linux) and it isn't quite Windows. So, end-users might find it difficult. Even a pro seemed to think it was hard to use.
Can a Red Hat Guru Survive on a Lindows Laptop?
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
I have reservations about walmart doing anything. Though it would be nice to see linux hit the open market in mid-west america in a ready packaged, boot and go format,I have a sneaking suspicion that plenty of these systems will end up with pirated versions of XP or other MS tripe on them.
Still one has to wonder what kind of quality is put into this sub $500 laptop. I mean once OS cost drops near $0 it should become clear that the production (and ultimaty retail) costs go to hardware. This is walmart! so one must ask how much of the $500 is profit margin? 10, 15, 20, 50%?
I for one would be very suspicious of the specs and quality of the parts. Because, lets face it, who needs a system with refurbished harddrives and Brand X ram that go up in smoke after 2 months?... hell, maybe they will run Cyrix.
IM
[I posted this elsewhere, but it's relevant here too.]
This is a bad choice. I have a C3 933Mhz processor. It performs roughly equivalent to a 300Mhz PIII. Not only this, but it is extremely hot. The C3 was supposed to be cool, but this is one of the hottest laptops I've used. I haven't objectively measured it with a thermistor yet, but the external temp seems about 55 C to 60 C. If I put the laptop on my bare chest it leaves red marks. It may be because the laptop is so thin, or maybe the HSF construction is shoddy.
The PIII/M is cool, and embarrasses the C3 in terms of performance. This is partly due to C3 being a bad processor, but also largely due to PIII/M being a good processor. In fact, if I was getting an x86 notebook, I wouldn't accept anything except a PIII. I've personally experienced Athlon notebooks, P4 notebooks, and VIA notebooks, and can tell that they are all inferior. I can't speak to Transmeta or Apple branded notebooks.
If this C3 notebook is at all appealing to you, my advice is to get an old PIII off ebay or reburbished from one of many dealers. You'll pay the same price and get a much higher performing, cooler laptop.
I've been thinking of replacing the iBook that I got last year with something a bit speedier. I'm not sure I want to pay the premium for a mac, but I love being able to drop into a console. I'd like to get a laptop that runs linux, but I'm not looking forward to paying a MS tax for a laptop with XP installed, just to install linux over it.
What are some good places to get a laptop with linux-preinstalled? (or a dual-boot linux/XP laptop?)
Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
It is because neither cares if they have friends. They have customers. To a company, customers are infinitely more important than friends.
Curiously enough, this might make a great home server... think about it
- runs linux... check
- lowpower processor you can keep on all the time... check
- Monitor and keyboard for when you need console access... check
Agruably a bit expensive, but you can probably plug in your FW or USB2 drive as a cheap NAS... to contrast with the kurobox I just got, this thing is probably more flexible and powerful, and at about only $200 more considering the drive. and take the laptop on the road for the occasional flight or two so you don't have to ever be away from your favorite roguelikeMake sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
For those whose 1st langauge is English, what does "sub-" mean in general? If this PC were to be offered at US$495, would it still be called a sub-$500 laptop? Where does it end?
This is nice, but here we see a machine with 256Mb, DVD, intergrated wireless and a real AMD processer. Seems that the argument that Windows makes a machine more expensive doesn't play through. I'd love to see these features on a Linux notebook even for the same price!
Ah, the days of yore, when a P-90 was respectable. Of course my current laptop is a toshiba tecra with a P-120, 78MB ram, 1.2GB hard drive, and a 6x cdrom. Running slackware. Most things still run fine, you just don't want to run bloatware like Firefox ("links -g" works like a charm).
Imagine a Beowolf cluster of these! You could keep a repair shop the size of Texas in operation for years!
I don't think the sepcifications are too bad at all. Most people don't do very high end stuff on their computers. There are millions of students worldwide that would be satisfied with something that surfs the web, runs word processors and basic graphics programs, does email, and runs some simple games.
I could do all that on my 386 with DOS; so you sure as hell can do all that with a system at these specs.
1.1 GHz Mobile AMD Athlon 4 processor
14.1" XGA TFT LCD screen
40 GB hard drive
128 MB RAM
DVD-ROM drive
Integrated 802.11b wireless networking
Actually they have done their best to make the inclusion of OO.org sound like it has MSOffice:
I sort of agree with an earlier poster that this kind of thing does make FL/OSS look like a bit of a ripoff .. I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Windows.
[ UNSIGNED NOT NULL ]
1.) It is cheap- under $500. This is rare. 2.) It runs Linux. Yes, believe it or not, this site does lean towards OSS and *NIX.
Bored? Why not join a decent mess
But they just don't strike me as the Linux crowd.
No keyboard detected. Press any key to continue.
How 'bout using the liquor store with the big sign "We Cash Checks".
When you go to the walmart page, loong on the right margin and investigate the -other- lowball machines they sell. For about 70 more you can get one with an AMB Mobile Athlon, 802.11b, a larger hd, a dvd instead of cd and of course XP Home. Buy that, nuke XP and load load the distro of your choice.
Democrat delenda est
Since it runs linspire (which I personally wouldn't touch with a 3.048 meter pole) it should be able to run other, better distros. Which is a good thing (TM) for us geeks who want a cheap laptop that actually works fully with Linux.
#include "sig.h"
The previous Linux/Walmart boxes were never available at the walmart stores, only at walmart.com. While the CNET article doesn't say that it won't be sold in stores, it starts out with with "Walmart.com and Linspire revealed.." and ends with "the computer is available at walmart.com". No mention that it would be available at stores.
My guess is people who buy computers online are somewhat more savy than those who buy at Wal-Mart stores.
I have blog like everyone else
- Sound device? Speakers? Headphone jack?
- Ethernet?
- 56k Modem?
- PCMCIA?
I would hope #1, #2, and #3, but the description doesn't give you any clues.On the flip side, it is painfully honest about the batteries. It takes 3.5 hours (5 if the laptop is on) to charge for 1.5 hours of use?!?! What kind of batteries are these? NiCad? There is something seriously wrong here.
I think above user is referring to:
Front Line: Is Wal-mart Good for America?
Fast Company: The Wal-mart You Don't Know
NY Times: Ideas & Trends: Discount Nation; Is Wal-Mart Good for America?
Reminds me of an episode of Sliders I remember from a few years back...all the people in a city worked for this mall or something, they were "encouraged" through media saturation to open up lines of credit through their employer and subconsciously influenced into buying more than they could afford, thus assuring they were eternally in debt and could not leave(i.e. indentured servants, i.e. slaves)
Sleep is futile.
Balance notebook with AMD XP-M 1600, 40GB HDD, DVD Rom sounds much better. Comes with windows. If the manufacturer removes it i am sure he can shave $25 off the price!!! http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=3504708&cat=179113&type=19&dept=3944
Who do you bank with troll, "1st Bank of Joe and Billy-Bob"? My bank has worked properly with Mozilla-based browsers for nearly five years now, and before that only had visual rendering issues except for a brief time after a botched redesign. Tell 'em to get with the program and fix their website so that it conforms to real standards. If they are unresponsive, vote with your dollars and your feet and trot on over to...well...almost any other bank.
Of course, you could explore other options:
* shell out extra $ for a copy of WinXP or a machine with it pre-installed
* break the law and put a cracked or pirated Windows on your machine
* stick to physically visiting your branch, ATMs and telephone banking
Life is not a competition. That is all.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Agree 100%. The people I went to high school with never went to college, because the union would get them US$40K a year jobs with full benefits right after high school. They scoffed at college.
Now (25 years later) we are finding that we (the US) have overpriced our labor to the point were we are non-competitive in any basic industries. Now my former classmates are unemployed, or on strike for years at a time, and up a creek. The slightly more enlightened among them are at a community college trying to make up for lost time.
Wal*Mart charges a low price and pays a low rate. Don't like it, go to school and get a job doing something other than stocking shelves. No other jobs in Podunk other than Wal*Mart? Move.
Grow up, people. Wal*Mart only controls the job supply if you let it. Train yourself for something other than stocking shelves or waving UPC's over scanners. Especially since we're automating that function, too.
I have several 1GHz C3 boxes. I like them a lot, and recommend them to people, but, performance wise, they are not really that different from a PII-450. Well, depending what you use them for that is. The big difference would be disk I/O as an old PII is not likely to support the fastest drives. This being a laptop though ...
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Sorry, if its for sale @ Walmart it isnt in my marketplace.
Ive never spent a nickle in that community destroying shit hole and I dont instend too.
I hope you make the same choice.
Some Walmart info
This is good: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17647
First, obviously, its overpriced for the stuff you get. Second, people who'd go for something like this (Walmart and cheap laptop) for their computing needs would certainly be under the influence of the wintel FUD (clock speed, intel inside, windows XP...), and therefore would be reluctant to buy this.
For everyone else there is a used yet good laptop off eBay, or a little more money for a better product. And if they care about linux enough, many distros are now friendly enough to yield a standard laptop very functional in no time.
Of course, it doesn't seem to have a PCMCIA slot, this is inconvenient for a notebook. But, if it is light, it has an ethernet port and you can easily add 128 Mb (which is really inexpensive these days), you can have a fully functional notebook for about US$ 550. Not bad at all ! But they NEED to give you the info ! I hope they'll stock them in the stores, I'd love to see it and maybe get one.
Actually, the pro thought it was quite easy to use - but that he had to a install a lot of stuff he would have thought of as common (like ssh).
However, I would say that there's no call for complaining the installation of Sendmail would be rather difficult for the average user. I am a pretty well versed user and would never be trying to install Sendmail! I'd at least look at Postfix first.
The bit about the newer wireless card not working was offputting, but then I guess that's why you'd buy a laptop pre-configured for Lindows where they had the proper card in place.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I saw that too. It makes me wonder why they didn't just use the same hardware, and preinstall linux instead of windows. I suppose it could be that Windows XP is too "bloated" for the C3, or perhaps it allows them enjoy a increase profit margin...
Regardless, it seems to me they'd sell more of these if the hardware was equivalent to the Windows laptops they sell. Just because linux will run on lower performance computers doesn't mean that most linux users *want* lower performance hardware.
Please watch the stereotypes. I shop Walmart. I also went to private schools until grad school, where I got my Ph.D. in Statistics. I don't hunt, although I do ski and scuba dive. I also employ programmers for things I design.
Hi, you must be new here. Let me be the first to welcome you to planet Earth. Here life most certainly is a competition. Now please check your naivete at the door.
I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
there never was a 300MHz PIII.
It's going to be ugly when Joe User buys one of these things and tries to get a wireless working. You can imagine how the support call will go when the poor user mentiones he's using Linspire/Linux.
For a non-Windows PC to work on a mass-market level, it has to be sold as an appliance. It should come out of the box with all that you need to perform "basic" functionality (web browser, email, productivity suite). All of these things exist in Linux. But if the user isn't able to log onto Linspire's site because they can't hook up to their wireless router or USB DSL/Cable modem to get those apps, they're going to go back and either return the notebook or buy XP
I think this "joke" is pretty outdated. Most people who have a clue know the difference between Linux and Windows. Those that don't will have exactly the SAME learning curve picking up OpenOffice and Firefox as MS Office and IE. You do not need to know all about Linux file systems and compiling the kernel to jump right into composing docs with OO, and surfing the web with Mozilla.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
... considering that having Windows on it would have driven up the price at least $100, just for WinXP Home; plus you can probably get away with lower system requirements running a Linux distro as opposed to XP.
If I didn't need a bit more oomph and Windows, specifically, for my schoolwork, I would have picked one of these up instead of the Toshiba I ordered.
a nice Shuttle box Athlon 64 based system with 256mb, dvd burner and 80gb hdd.
sure that doesn't include a display but its infinately more useful in the long term than this silly crippled C3 with a cd-rom.
Nevertheless, the term is correct. Mathematics = maths. It's called British English, get used to it.
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Yeah, but it's not sold with Linux preloaded. ;-)
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
I know it's Linspire, but still the average user doesn't know to configure their digital camera with linux, or recompile the kernel.
The average user will, most likely, never have to recompile the kernel. As for the digital camera, that's a problem for the camera manufacturer to solve. Wal-mart can put enough preasure (if they want) on manufacturer to include software for Linspire.
I figure wal-mart supporting linux (in its own greedy way) just may be a good thing.
Required reading for internet skeptics
...know if this VIA CPU & 128 MB RAM is enough to playback DivX or Xvid AVI DVD rips? Possibly if you drop the screen down to 800x600 or 640x480 @ 16bpp?
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
$500 does seem like a cheap price, but due to price slashes from dell and other laptop manufacturers of new laptops down to prices as low as $599, you can get very good aftermarket laptops on online auction sites, ie, ebay, for less than $500 that will give you much more power for the same price. Know your options.
For $50 more they have an AMD 1.1 GHz Mobile Athlon 4 model with a bigger drive (40 vs 30) and DVD-ROM. Sweet! Now I just need an extra $550... :-)
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Which version of the C3 does this notebook use?
Notebooks based the C3 come in two flavors: Ezra and Nehemiah. The Nehemiah at 1 GHz is almost twice as fast as the Ezra at 1 GHz.
The tip-off would be the chipset, if it was known. The Nehemiah is almost always used with the CLE266 chipset with a 266 MHz FSB.
Doesn't look like anyone has anything good to say about this "Balance" company. One example:8 51-1.html
http://www.webservertalk.com/message444
You must really be young.
It reminds me of West Virginia coal mines of the 1920's and 30's and their company-owned towns. Your monthly wages never exceeded your monthly costs for rent, food, clothes and your kids 'education' in the company owned and run stores and schools, so you we always in debt to the company.
People originally flocked to Walmart because the low prices allowed them to keep more of their income from their middle class jobs and spend it on other things besides food and clothes. But, as Walmart drove the middle class jobs out of town, many found that they could no longer afford to shop any place else.
Now that most of the Walmart merchandise has "Made in China" labels on it, Americans have completed the task of sending their remaining jobs and income overseas and in doing so are funding a Marxist dictatorship bent on our own destruction. America, truly a "company store" again. Add to that the fact we that sending what money we have left to Mid-Eastern Oil producing states so we can drive SUV that get 12 mpg and proof of our insanity is complete.
Pr0n, booze, drugs and Walmart. What a sad commentary.
Hypothetical requirements of hypothetical home user that doesn't care about managing computers:
Let me rent or buy a thin client with a CD burner, floppy, and local printer and scanner port, and let me rent the applications and storage that I need (advertiser-supported, probably). Plop this onto my DSL or cable modem and I'm set. Viruses? Not my problem. Security? Not my problem. Backups? Not my problem. Paying the bill, that's my only worry.
How's this for a price list:
DSL@0.75Mbps: $240/year, including modem
OR Cable @ 3Mbps: $540/year, including modem
Thin client PC, 1GHz Duron or equivalent (probably running a free OS in firmware): $150 or $20/month
Printers, scanners - do-it-yourself from a long list of supported devices
Software packages (prices lower, possibly free if ad-supported):
Linux desktop/office package - $5/month, includes most of what a standard Linux desktop distro offers
Linux server package - $varies based on resource usage
MS-Windows packages - vary based on software but start at $20/month for MS-Windows XP with Open-source applications (Microsoft gets at least $10/month of that)
Microsoft Office - $40/month for Microsoft Office XP, less for component parts. Reader programs are free.
Security software: Included and maintained at no additional cost.
Root/admin access: Other than as needed to configure printers and scanners, these are not available with this offering. We will be happy to sell you these services as part of our other offerings.
All packages have resource limitations which most home users will not approach.
Are these prices realistic? Can a vendor make money selling at these prices? Will a customer be willing to pay these prices?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
You forgot
6. US tax payers subsidize healthcare etc. for Wal-Mart employees. For corporate America there truly is a free lunch.
BTW, VIA seems to have expat'ed from CA to Taiwan. Are all hardware companies now, for the most part, ex-USA?
Expect Freedom.
The parent AC must think all laptops are 'thinkpads'. Hell, it worked for kleenex -- why not IBM?
Required reading for internet skeptics
The ram's a bit scanty for any modern OS
Granted, I'm a power user (no, not gamer on the laptop, but I tend to run several things at once) and the single biggest thing I'd like on my laptop is more RAM, and I got 256MB. It takes next to nothing to make it start swapping to disk. I use light-weight tools like textpad to do quick work so I don't have to deal with dogs like MS word (or Oo for that matter), simply because of RAM considerations.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Because when I first saw the price and specs on the thing the first notion that popped into my head was trying one of them and putting ubuntu on it.
Then I saw the other machine that has an "Athlon 4" CPU in it (whatever that is) for fifty bucks more and comes with built-in wireless networking. "Oh boy," I thought, and headed over there to check that one out. And of course, the one that has wireless networking comes with XP.
Gonna be real easy "taking over the desktop market" when you can't even get installed in a machine with wireless networking support...
Attitudes like that result in the problems we have on Earth. It's better to stop competing and start co-operating. Otherwise you are a useless ass. Hmm... you ARE a useless ass, aren't you?
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
I wouldn't touch that with a 10m cattle-prod.
a pity to post this as an A,C,. because it deserves to be modded up.
Its on sale for $548 and has the following improvements:
- 1.1 GHz Mobile Athlon 4 Proc.
- 802.11b networking
- 40 Gig HD (+10 gig improvement)
- DVD-ROM drive
And, they even threw Windows (XP Home) on it. Better bang for your buck in my opinion (If they had a sans MS version for $25 or so less that'd be even better). I'd be interested in a review of these things.well, that and the fact everyone in the USA spends too much time "remebering" these days.
-- Free software on every PC on every desk
The Wi-fi is built-in, on the mobo. Fine. But, WTF is it? And will it work under Open/Free/Net-BSD? That is not a trivial matter? If it wont run them, it would be wasted money, for me. I have no idea what Faustian bargain, or licensing amnesia, Lindows(?) is offering for its OS, its bundled drivers, etc.? Mandrake has/does include Wi-Fi firmware that is not free. While I don't give a sh_t about that, I take under advisement that in the same vain, thus, wireless specs are unavailable, opaque, and therefore un-available to another free *nix. Plainly put, the sh_t might not run under OpenBSD, which matters to me.
You guys buy these things, and then fill us in, what are they running? What chipset? Is that CPU REALLY what WalMart CLAIMS? BEWARE
BTW, the more expensive, better AMD machines, for an extra ~$100 include not a *nix, but Windows XP. WalMart, boobie, come on, save at least, pass on at least, a good chunk of change by nixing or offering a better alternative. Weasely sh_t like that is how you guys destroy the competition, do a little destroying for me.
Ah, this is obviously some new usage of the word 'fine' I was previously unaware of.
I think you'll find Wal-Mart's business model is super-saturate an area with outlets being fed from a central depot in that area, selling at little to no profit to starve local competition. When all local competition has died the surplus stores are removed and the prices hiked up to profitable levels again, whilst the Wal-Mart juggernaut rides on.
the layman's guide to computer science
Search the on-line vendors for "trackpoint" AND keyboard AND (PS/2 or USB)
- Anyone who shops at WalMart is party to the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care.
You just earned yourself a fan. My wife still shops at WalMart and will occasionally drag me along. The few times a year I'm in there just reminds me how much I hate WalMart.And don't forget, not only are they leading the destruction of the middle class, they are also responsible for generating about $1000 in annual revenue for every US citizen. They have the power to do what they want in any market segment they turn their crushing retail powers towards.
Note I didn't say they had the power to be the best in any market segment they turn their attention towards; they just have enough resources (i.e. CASH) they can crush all the quality vendors until there is no other practical choice but WalMart.
Back in February, HP was advertising the laptop deal that I bought... Mobile Athlon XP 2500+, 256MB PC 2700 SDRAM, 40GB HDD, 1024x768 15" LCD screen, 24x CD-RW/DVD-ROM, no WiFi built in, $699 after $400 in rebates. I've seen nothing cheaper in the past year, and anything else I've seen at $699 had a Celeron-M 330 processor, which my Athlon XP blows right out of the water. I bought a 802.11g PCMCIA card for $30 and a 512MB SODIMM from Crucial for $100, and a $30 case to carry it in, and it's been a great little laptop for me. I'd take it over this sub-$500 Linspire job, anyday. I run XP Pro and SuSE on my HP ze4610us and I really couldn't be happier for what I got, best value for the dollar.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Clickety Click
So I guess you'd also be for "killing" national defense, right? Why shouldn't we let capitalisim take care of that responsibility too? We should also probably have private law enforcement, 'cause that's capitialistic too. We don't need that socialistic national defense and public law enforcement, that's like communisim!
You're drunk on capitialisim, like most of us in the US. Either you're very rich or very young and you don't get that life isn't always a smooth ride for the non-very rich.
Be wary of these walmart laptops. I purchased one, come to find out the CPU was not what I was sold. When I confronted walmart, they told me that they never said what the CPU really was and just because AMD likes to call their chips one thing doesnt mean they have to comply! More at www.jasonandjessi.com/a535.html . Oh, and Im not the only one.
www.linux-skunkworks.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The American people let the legislators pull the wool over their eyes by allowing absurd jury awards, shuffling personal responsibility off to the nearest set of (presumably) deep-pocket targets, and otherwise fostering the stupidity du jour. So mostly, I think they get what they deserve. Eventually, maybe they'll get up off their lazy asses and force the legislature to behave responsibly. I try, and I get a lot more done than you'd think since I can use $$$ as a lever, but it's not enough. The insurance companies and the lawyers have more.
I'm a business owner. I pay for healthcare for all my employees. They get a full ride -- dental, eyes, health and life. You don't even want to know what it costs me. The only good news is I can still afford to do it. In about five years, if things keep going as they are, I'll be forced to raise our software prices, because there won't be any margin remaining to cover it. And that's for a product that technically has paid back our investment in it; originally, it was $499, and these days we sell the same thing, plus tons of upgrades done in the meantime, for $50 -- we're that far down the curve. It absolutely sickens me that the curve is reversing because of lawyers and other parasites.
Gah. I hate this subject.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Because we all know that societies that forbid competition thrive far more than capitalist ones. After all, thats the real reason that capitalist societies are in the shitter, especially in technological areas. and quality of life. right?
Healthy and fair competition is the best thing for society, in nearly every arena.
So what does it matter how "mainstream" Linux gets. Does it change your use of Linux? Probably not.
Is Linux in danger of going away? Does Linux need a large retailer like WalMart to keep it viable, I dont think so.
So who cares whether consumers buy this $500 linux laptop or spend an extra $50 on the one that comes with XP?
Example insult: "Hey retard! Your momma so dumb she..."
Example bargain: "If you want it real cheap we can skimp on RAM. Your call."
Remember: this is a $500 laptop
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Remeber how much you love WalMart when that's the only job available to you, and the wages from your WalMart job are so low you can only afford to shop at WalMart.
Excactly. I equate WalMart == poor.
I don't have a problem with people making little money. That is a different thing. But people that are poor just suck. Ask Kenney.
Anyone who shops at WalMart is party to the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care.
Yup. Again, poor people are those that work 50-60 hours a week at 1 or 2 jobs and still are able to have enough money to finance banks with overdraft fees.
I don't care about how cheap something is, or if its not at WalMart I don't need it mentality. What kind of precident is this setting? To strive for the lowest common denominator. To drive a company out of business so that we can now have $2.97 gallon jars of pickels. To retire and be a greeter.
Have some dignity people. Money does not equal wealth, and lack of money does not equal poverty.
If this post is regarded as "insightful", I must say that the moderators need to learn some economics. Do you think that WalMart pays less than Goldman Sachs because the big shots at Goldman Sachs are kind and generous people? If certain WalMart employees don't earn that much, it's because no other employer is bidding more for their skills. That's what their labor is worth on the free market. WalMart is a great benefactor of the lower and middle classes, because it expands their purchasing power. If you think WalMart is mean, try starting a small business, hiring away WalMart employees at higher wages, and making a profit. THEN you have to right to bash WalMart. Talk is cheap.
Wow. I wonder if it'll be a quality piece hardware like that crap "Durabrand" shit Wal-Mart sells. heh.
Spend the extra $200 and get a Dell... quality is usually a bit better and at least you can get 24/7 support for the bloody thing.
This could be the perfect appliance base. Use it as your media station no worries.. low on power and has a fast enough cpu (the C3 isnt as slow as people like to claim).
It maybe a good replacement for my current media centre..
Or apply to yogurt. Vanilla yogurt is good by itself, plain yogurt is good for cooking or with jam, and they are not at all the same.
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Yes, but does it run-
Oh.
Or what about installing IE with Wine?
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Have you checked the breakdown of the precent of malpractice insurance that goes to lawyers, against the amount the insurance companies merely pocket? People get mad at the doctors, and get mad at the lawyers (I mostly avoid dealings with both myself), but how do the insurance firms avoid anyone noticing how incredibly much money goes to them - not just for malpractice, but for medical insurance itself. If you eliminated the insurance companies from the racket, it would cut something like 30% off our medical costs.
As for the suits against doctors, the majority of suits are against just a few doctors in any state. The states where the medical association actually disciplines doctors they get complaints against end up with much lower malpractice insurance, because there's less malpractice, because in medicine as in most professions it's about 10% of the people who make 90% of the screwups. So what malpractice insurance gives doctors is the freedom from having to discipline their own. Start yanking licenses from the idiots, and the problem goes away. But of course the insurance firms don't want the problem to go away. They make money coming (medical insurance) and going (malpractice insurance).
It's a protection racket.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
1. Get the price of that thing with WinXP Pro SP2.
2. Replace WinXP with Linux, but don't change the price.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!
And a selling point of Linspire is the "Click 'n Run" catalog of "1,900 Programs you can use free!". See their marketing page.
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Walmart are probably only making around $200 on the system. But it still could be very good as a media centre plug it into the tv/use it to store music whatever.
Got a question about UNIX ask it here : Unix/xBSD Forum
excessive support of Republican party has caused me to stop buying at wal mart.
Except Wal-Mart is completely against ever paying overtime, so you'll never work more than 40 hours a week. They provide a decent healthcare plan, much better than any other minimum wage job anyway.
Wal-mart is the pinicle of a very successful business. You can't fault them for making money, it's what they are supposed to do.
I'm in total agreement with your conclusion. I've been saying that all along. But to me, this isn't (or shouldn't) be about making legislation to stop WalMart from doing business like they do, or even trying to boycott WalMart....
It's simply an interesting study on what can happen to a business when they try to bite off more than they can chew. These stories all have the same basic theme. Small/new business starts producing product(s) that get them noticed, and eventually the big retail chain approaches them. The business sees $$$$'s and doesn't consider the long-term potential consequences of the deal. Then they get in over their head, and they cry to people about how the retail giant is mistreating them.
I will say that this type of thing sends one clear signal to me. I do NOT want to ever work for WalMart (or any other large business with similar business philosophies). If they desire the "best possible purchase price", no matter what it means to their own suppliers, you better believe the same applies on the opposite end (the employees). They're going to want the most possible labor out of people for the least possible pay, and concepts like "making people happy so they perform better" are going to be pretty foreign to them.
whoa, good thing i shop at Kmart
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Not only that, but Walmart also contributes a lot to Republicans, who in turn are actively pursuing the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care, as you said.
Why shop at stores that contribute to the destruction of the American way of life? Check out buyblue.org and choosetheblue.com and shop accordingly...
No, you will forget that we will still have the choice to work at mcdonalds or blockbuster, the other 2 predatory corporations that all share the same business plan. Move into small towns, destroy the economy, remove jobs, and basically take over any type of industry that might have existed in the past.
Yes you can save money, but their is allways a price, be it quality, ethics, or price.
Personally My ethics are not so cheap as to be willing to give them away so easily to save a few bucks.
TruePunk | Games
"Nevermind the complete loss of any motivation to outperform your peers and better yourself."
Exactlly, why attempt to out proform or better yourself when you live in a small town where the only places to work are wallmart or fast food chains.
Most people will have a hard enough time getting through each day let alone save up for collage, but then again alot of people who work jobs like this for more then a few years forget the concept of trying to improve your self or to excel in anything. they just live to be in dept.
TruePunk | Games
well, when I was young... oh fuck it.
-pyrrho
Healthy and fair competition is different from favortism and near-monopolistic power grabbing.
Wal-Mart and other similarly large companies leverage extreme control on market sectors that they got through legitimate means to do questionable things. The problem here is that people like Sam Walton found companies by working their bloody asses off and being smart about their business, then they turn it over to ass-lickers like Michael Duke and company who just leverage their predecessor's success to make their own lazy fortunes.
Capitalism works great until it succeeds. Then, it's just a welfare program for the already-rich. The longer that system is allowed to run, the more corrupt the original idea of capitalism becomes. We began regulating companies for a reason, don't turn your back on those reasons just because you don't know history.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
"we are infact a species of this planet"
Temporarily you are.
We Transhumans have plans for you. We intend to teach you what Darwinian competition is really about.
Have a nice day.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Along side this nice new linux box, I have an old P133 laptop that still does the job nicely, abiword and twm does just fine.... who ever said that you needed the most powerful machine on the market???
"We should be putting pressure on other countries so there workers can have a decent life, instead of letting there countries bring us down."
Don't worry.
Bush is going to bomb them when he gets around to it.
That is, right after he drafts you back into the Army. He's a little short on bodies right now.
(LIVE bodies, that is. No shortage of dead ones.)
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Hmmm,
The numbers you quote for liability insurance seemed a little off to me and thus I went a looking.
A typical general surgeon in Wyoming paid on average $94k/annually for liability insurance. Wyoming has no cap on non-economic damages and as such is considered as a medical liability crisis state.
Montana on the other hand has a cap of $250K on non-economic damages and while it is not as low as states such as California generally premiums do not exceed $30k/annually. The highest reported premium that I could find for a montana general surgeon was $54K/annually.
I therefore think that you will have to provide some proof to your assertion that her insurance liability was over a million dollars a year.
PS. I remember using your software back in '94, looking at your website looks like a lot of improvement has happened to what at the time I thought was a great product. It's nice to see that as the software paid for itself you lowered prices. Nice to see you still in business as well. I'm originally from Montana and it's nice to see a great software company running in my home state.
/* TODO: Spawn child process, interest child in technology, have child write a new sig */
Anyone who shops at WalMart is party to the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care.
Funny, my wife's uncle works at wall mart, is paid just fine (he and his wife live off the income), works a 40-hour work week and has health benefits.
But, you bring up something... why should an employer pay for your health insurance? What's wrong with them *not* paying for your health insurance and perhaps giving the money to you in the form of a higher wage?
Perhaps it is pro government health care folks say, and you are too stupid to evaluate your own health care and insurance needs...
Just remember, nobody makes anyone work at Wal*Mart, McDonald's, or anywhere else.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
True, however in the case of Walmart they are not necesarrily an institution that promotes any sort of competition, at least in Walmart's industry.
I agree. However, the insurance companies can only do what they do because the chain of responsibility that turns the legislators into power brokers for the insurance companies enables them to.
I see the chain of responsibility in this order:
The insurance companies have what amounts to a license to mint money. The legislators gave it to them.
The lawyers also have a license to mint money, and the legislators gave it to them as well.
The political parties only produce candidates that will toe the line and produce pork.
The people give the political parties the the power to do this, and they have not moved to take it away.
The legislature has in turn very carefully made it very difficult (with the single exception of California as far as I know) for the people to have any power whatsoever in changing how the system works. They do this by distracting the gullible majority with bullshit issues like drugs and "obscenity" and useless, unproductive wars in third-world countries, while they avoid dealing with healthcare and tort reform as if it was the plague. And of course, to them, it is the plague, because of the level of political pork that arises from the back room intercourse they engage in with the insurance industry. Screw that up, and they could lose income and the cushy job. And they know it.
The tea went into Boston harbor for far less reason than all of this adds up to. American citizens are the ones bending over; so who can really blame the legislature if they go for a quick sample of ass? Stand up for yourself, vote the incumbents out of office -- no matter who they are -- next time around and send a coherent message. Or don't, and pay through the nose for your healthcare.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
But it goes deeper than this for the medical care consumer. Liability is applied at many levels, when you're talking about surgery. All of these fine folks have to carry liability:
Now, I don't know about you, but I don't mind paying for top notch healthcare, the tools to implement it, and the facilities to perform it in. But I sure as hell mind paying for for a zillion dollar award because someone left a sponge in, or because some dipstick handed out the wrong meds. And that's what insurance is. It is us, paying for them.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I ma not lawyer and well only no one lawyer who is retired and who I don't; like.
Alright insurance costs are higher only slightly form lawsuits what the are up from is insurance groups back when US Healthcare was kicking I knew lots of execs that did very little and pulled in a lot of money ( like 450,000 and above )...the ceo made some ungodly amount...and the clerks there were paid well also but they did most of the work was done by them and middle management. Which made (35K start (not bad back then and well not to bad now, not livable in the Philly suburbs). Think about your car insurance and how it goes up, here where I live car thefts are at a record low, law suits for car accidents have lots of reforms so you can't make much money and insurance company liability is very limited....but rates are still very high and should be going down but the insurance groups are not doing that.
Let's look at Vioxx now as Merck is another big player here. Merck pulled Vioxx not because it feared the government but because of lawsuits. The fda would prolly been satisfied with a warning label.
Story 2....botched surgery...a coworker of my dads had surgery. Something was left inside...they wanted him to pay to remove it. One insurance company sued the other...he gets screwed and has to pay a $1000 or so out of pocket, some small amount of the total cost to remove said item and is under threat from insurance companies to be sued again.
Lawyers do bear some burden, but not like the Insurance Companies
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but there have been past stories about how walmart pressurizes it's suppliers to lower costs to the point of even bankrupting them. So, what I'm wondering is, who is it this time? Sure, it's great to have a laptop for less than $500, but hey, is some poor guy suffering to provide this pricing? or not? Anyone?
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Spoken like a true wacko leftist fringe element type that just can't stand free enterprise. Wal-Mart delivers to their customers what they want, low prices. Market forces win out, friend. The only party to the destruction of the American middle class is the Democratic Party and their "tax and spend" cradle to grave entitlements mentality.
This is the problem with walmart including the example from the parent message earlier about a gallon of pickles costing $2.97.
The company that did this was strong armed by walmart after a chinese company claimed they could supply walmart that amount of pickles for under $3.
Walmart then arm twisted all their pickle manufactors to match the price or be banned from the shelves.
Most brand names refused and realized they would go under if they could sell the pickles to Walmart for that price except for one brand name manufactor.
I do not remember the company name but sure enough they went bankrupt after trying to sell the pickles for the $2.97.
Walmart is having a negative effect on the market. Manufactors are forced to never raise prices for products despite inflation not to mention are forced production oversea's, required to scale up product to a point that they will go under if they cancel walmart, to lowering living standards.
They are a monstor corporation and have the GDP of most governments. In essence they are becoming a government themselves if they are the sole distributor of 50% of all goods according to some economists.
http://saveie6.com/
Also, I'm going to touch base with the ex and see if I can't get some exact figures -- I was quite sure of them until you disputed them, now I'm wondering. It's been about eight years, but she still talks to me. Sometimes.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I am college educated and and live at home with my parents and am applying at several retailers stocking shelves.
Why?
Because Walmart and most of corporate America has become obessed with outsourcing in order to cut prices.
So it is the problem.
Many computer science students are lucky if they end up working at 7-11 repairing slurpie machines.
So where do you go?
http://saveie6.com/
Amazing how Walmart has enough money to pay $1000 for every US citizen yet finds ways to make their employee's work off the clock, pay no medical benefits, and pay rock bottom for all their associates.
http://saveie6.com/
Walmart has FAR BETTER notebooks available, for just slightly more money.
If you are getting this laptop, you are telling Walmart you are willing to pay MORE for LESS if it says "Linux" on it...
Let's compare this $500 Lindows notebook with the $550 Windows XP notebook also sold at Walmart.com
$500 Lindows_ $550 Windows
1.0GHz Via C3_1.1GHz AMD mobile XP
CD-ROM_ _ _ _ DVD-ROM
30GB HDD_ _ _ 40GB HDD
4-cell Batt_ _4-cell Batt
??_ _ _ _ _ _ 1Gbps NIC
??_ _ _ _ _ _ DDR RAM
??_ _ _ _ _ _ 802.11b WiFi
??_ _ _ _ _ _ S-Video TV-out
I hope that's clear enough. First of all, Walmart needs to update the info for their new cheapo system. The fact that they are conviently omitting lots of important info indicates it may be missing key functionality.
In addition, even if all the Lindows notebook's ???? are really equivalent to the Windows XP counterpart, you'd still be stupid to get the Lindows notebook, with a smaller hard drive CPU about half as fast (Via C3s are vastly underperforming) and lacking a DVD-ROM. Not to mention that Windows XP might be of some value. It's definately worth spending the extra $50 to get the FAR better notebook.
Words cannot describe how much I HATE the slashdot lameness filter.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Right now the next model up (at $548) includes * wifi * dvd-rom * winxp - http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=3163026
You know what I miss? Leeches.
Although it's probably been said... they are also offering, for $50, a notebook with an Athlon CPU and Windows XP Home.
How, exactly, is this Linspire machine a good idea/deal?
bash-3.00$ uname -a
SunOS panda 5.10 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-2
They do have good health insurance *if* you are a full time employee. The thing is, unless you work at a Wal-Mart Warehouse (fairly good money there) or you are in Wal-Mart Management and/or have a skilled office job (e.g. working in the Cash Office counting their money), you will *only* be part time. (As a side note, the only job I have ever seen where part-time employess get fully-paid health insurance is the union-controlled Krogers. But they have their own problems, too.)
There are people who have worked many years at Wal-Mart and are still only part time, thus no insurance. I myself worked over a year at a Wal-Mart with no hint of ever going full time, until I got promoted to the Cash Office. Had it not been for that, I'm not sure I would have ever gained full-time status.
Let me tell you, these mega-corps have it figured out and they aren't going to spend a penny they don't have to pay, because they have 200 vice presidents, all with health care, that are going to get a fat bonus every year for keeping it that way.
Ron Paul
I reckon Americanised English should be given its own name. I agree with parent, "English" is taken.
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
*shrug* I worked for Wal-Mart for 3 months. After 90 days, I was told I was eligible for health benefits. They would cover 60% of the premium cost, if I remember correctly.
I worked in the electronics department full-time as a regular associate. I started at Wal-Mart as a full time employee.
Hiring practices are very much up to the individual managers, not some corporate edict from above.
Of course, as soon as a real job offer came along, I ditched Wal-mart the same day.
You jerks are all the same. Did I ever say I support socialism or communism? That's what you imply by talking about "societies that forbid competition". Can't you find some middle ground between ass licking your capitalist masters and being fucked in the ass by power hungry totalitarians? Capitalism is fine and dandy as long as we remember that the customers come first, the employees (the ones who do the actual work) come second and management and share holders come dead last.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Hi there, useless ass here. You do know why they call it Capitalism right? The important part is Capital. Now human capital tends to be the most interchangable. My point is with out competition(bigger, beter, faster, more) you get stagnation and decay.
I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
Hi useless ass. :)
I know what capitalism is. What I'm saying is to find the middle ground between capitalism and socialism. A nice combo would work out much better than what we have in the US now.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
You said:
"Anyone who shops at WalMart is party to the destruction of the american middle class, the 40 hour work week, and employer paid health care."
Walmart just carried the possibilities allowed by "the system" to their economically logical conclusion. Yeah, I live in union-rich Chicago and have plently of union (and non-union) shops to choose from, but it isn't the same everywhere, and it isn't like they're doing anything illegal. The "people" chose this system (a lot of them anyway) and Walmart is just working it.
And furthermore, this can only hurt the Dells and HP and other glorified importers in the long run. If they are allowed to suppress "innovation" by making it economically feasible only to cater to the mass market and lowest price point, then the incentive of competition as a driver of innovation is lost anyway. In which case, we might as well let Walmart out-Dell Dell.
Those countries were are non-competitive with have much higher unionization rates and much more extensive regulation. Unions are not the cause of the loss of competitiveness in those industries.
Capitalism is destroying society; all the forces are pushing everything towards a world where a few mega-corps own and control everything, and everyone else lives in Third-World conditions. Nobody will be able to climb out of that poverty, because *whoosh* if their standards of living go up any, the jobs will just move to somewhere where the standards of living are still low.
(Yes, this will eat into the corps' profits, but they'll no doubt still manage to survive, and they don't / can't think in that long of a time horizon anyway).
I don't know what to do to fight this - I could try to buy from socially-responsible companies (it is possible, in our society, for a small business to have ethics - only big businesses (with several or more investors) must give up their ethics). I could try to lobby for better labor and consumer-protection laws. Any of it would be like standing under Niagra Falls with a golf umbrella trying to stop the water.
It seems all I can do (since I'll never be able to rise to the top of the capitalist heap) is try to prepare for a life of abject poverty.
Yeah, but if you take the insurance companies out of the picture, they can't cover any malpractice, and if a doctor screws you over, you can't do a darn thing about it.
Yeah, if someone repeatedly makes mistakes, yank his license, but we need the malpractice insurance.
--LWM
Maybe you haven't lived in a real small town pre-Wal-Mart, where the economy is controlled by local barons who make sure that nobody gets a job unless they are the right color and go to the right church. Then they take the profits and buy imported knick-knacks from France.
American small town business as a whole has never had ethics that were any higher than Wal-Mart's.
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
*shrug*, granted it has been about 10 years since I have worked for Wal-Mart, unless something drastic has changed, I would say you were the exception to the rule. Not that I'm an expert on Wal-Mart or anything, but after discussing this with various Wal-Mart employees and from various stores, over the years, they all said about the same thing I did (at least for the store and not the warehouse, which does hire a lot of full time employees). At Supercenters, the policy seems to be department managers are full time and regular associates are part time for quite some time before getting to go full time.
Wal-Mart is also very good at hiring seasonally, as well. Which is another good crop of people they will never have to pay for insurance on.
But if you went to full time after 90 days, sounds good to me!
Way back then, I left Krogers to go to Wal-Mart because the union at Krogers sucked and there was no way to advance other than waiting for the people at the top to die. Wal-Mart, even with no insurance, was better because hard work *could* pay off. But I would hate to have to go back to either place, personally.
Usurper_ii
Ron Paul
Imagine being able to work from a bar, bookstore or coffeeshop: heaven!
> yet the two lawyers who ran for president this year would have everyone believe that lawsuits are just some miniscule cost
Tell me, how many court cases has Bush argued?
You may preach the gospel of free market liberalism as you will - and I will not be in contradiction - but the fact of the matter is that Wal-Mart is not a fair player. The irony of capitalism is that it's a system that only works well if there is competition, but where every player is supposed to attempt to achieve monopoly. Well, Wal-Mart won. As far as many market segments go they have no competition. They may have achieved this goal by fair competition, by being faster, better, leaner and meaner than their competitors. But however fair the method of achieving this dominance was (and I'm sure there are arguments, and possibly evidence, to the contrary) that doesn't make the end result to the economy and society any more appealing.
Since Wal-Mart maintains a dominant position in many fields of retail, and packs a considerable wallet to boost, they are able to manipulate the system just like a government entity can. A governmental body responsible for a plan-based economy could refuse to buy from a supplier and thereby put it out of business. Wal-Mart can threaten a supplier similarly, but also has the resources available to compete even with other monopolies and trusts by starting their own manufacturing of products they have problems acquiring at a "good value". When such a dominance has been achieved, Wal-Mart can (and have) start to play the meta-economy game of labour management, sales tax, logistics and surveillance, social behaviours and, let's not forget, globalisation.
When you control a small city's or county's workforce, you can maintain a "healthy" level of control by controlling the unemployment rate - since there are no employers to compete with you, you can ensure that your employees don't ask for higher wages and benefits, and you can ensure that they are sufficiently afraid to form unions to help them. This keeps costs down and allows you to maintain a "good value".
When you have expanded enough in an area that neighbouring counties is suffering because their residents don't shop (or work) locally, you can strike some nice deals with the local government for land and property to bring the business back. Of course, the county wouldn't have had to give these incentives to smaller retail businesses and thus its residents still lose out - except for the good value they'll be getting at Wal-Mart.
As you grow in the retail industry, total control / panopticon technologies such as RFID tags, international inventory and sales trend analysis and complete data warehousing become gradually more cost-effective. The detrimental effect of these technologies are well known and I need not go into detail for the /. crowd. Similarly, economies of scale and control of both production and retail mean that you can mass manufacture something centrally (with a large impact on the environment) and then ship it to every warehouse (with a large impact on the environment) cheaper than if you were to manufacture and sell the product locally in many different places. In Wal-Mart's case, the effect is truly extreme as entire cities spawn and crumble at the whims of Wal-Mart's procurement arm.
When you control the retail industry, you control the buying habits of consumers. When you control the buying habits of consumers, you control where and for what they shop. If consumers want a certain product that Wal-
That's revenue, not profit. Gross revenue, at that. Basically, it's a useless figure that only shows how much money flows through WalMart on it's way to suppliers, employees, and shareholders.
Don't forget that WalMart is also the largest employer in the US, with more than 1 million employees. And, though I have no evidence to back this up, I've heard they operate on profit margins of 10-20%.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Hey kids, did it ever occur to any of you, on either side, that maybe the best thing isn't to have ONLY competition, or ONLY cooperation, but maybe some fucking BALANCE?!?! You are ALL trying to argue that the coin should only have one side! There are times and places that competition is important. There are certainly times and places that cooperation is important as well. Every workplace, every friendship, and every band I've ever been in has, at times been competitive. And at other times, they've also been cooperative. This is the way of the world, people. Male and female. Democrat and Republican. Night and day. Heads and tails. Light and shadow. Ford and GM. NEVER will ANY of these completely eradicate the other. Existance is dualistic and cyclical. Cooperation and competition are both equally and immensely important to a person's well-being, and neither could exist without the other, because they define each other by opposition. Both the CCCP and Dickensian England were completely unsustainable for precisely this reason - the one believed solely in cooperation while the other believed solely in competition. And both were eventually compelled to make radical changes in their society. The thing that has always made America great has been our ability to compromise, we lose that at our peril.
So suck it up, quit pretending that there's only one right answer, quit acting like spoiled children who just want their way... and BALANCE!!!!!
They will never stop until somebody makes the
You seem to be equating WalMart's market hegemony with competition. Competition is among more than one party, competition isn't just one company getting incredibly huge and eating up every other company or market that poses any kind of competition to it. WalMart seems to me to be the very essence of anti-competition.
Call me crazy, but where I come from Capialism (which I do conisder a good thing) requires competition and a marketplace. When you remove any and all real, substantial competition from Capitalism, it becomes Corporatism, which I do definately consider a bad thing. It's not Capitalism if nobody can compete with the behemoths that are already on the scene. And it's not much of a marketplace if one major player dominates everything, because who's going to choose, voluntarily, to pay a higher price? And the ultimate loser is always the consumer, the very person Capitalism is supposed to be good for (by offering choices in the marketplace).
And while I agree that capital is important, let's not forget that all capital comes from WORK. Which is done by PEOPLE. Without workers there would be no companies, no managers, and no capital. People can get by just fine without corporations, corporations can't get by without people (as workers and consumers). Capital is certainly important, and many companies do make life more pleasant, but we've lost all sense of BALANCE between labor and capital. The Capitalist system only works when both labor and capital are valued. And if we don't correct the imbalance, the system will crash.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
Thanks for the clarification. As I read your previous comment I assumed that the insurance was for merely one person. I can definately see insurance pushing into the millions for the support of a staff.
/* TODO: Spawn child process, interest child in technology, have child write a new sig */
Well, my original point was a rebuttal of the statement, "Life is not a competetion..." I don't disagree that Walmarts rapid growth is not troubling much like the robber barons of the early 20th century. I will disagree with the statement that PEOPLE can live without corporations(here I mean large organizations designed to assist in distribution of limited resources in a marketplace), a person could live without this, but as mention in previous posts PEOPLE(large populations) need efficent methods of producing goods and services. I'll spare everyone the econ 101 lecture on monopolies and waste. I would also agree that the legal fiction that a corporation is a person instead of merely a limited liabilty partnership of many individuals, is also a problem that needs to be fixed else the system will crash.
I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
Agree 100%. The people I went to high school with never went to college, because the union would get them US$40K a year jobs with full benefits right after high school. They scoffed at college.
What the hell is wrong with being able to make a reasonable living without going to college?
Shit, I went to college....a good one to, but it's not for everybody. We NEED dishwashers, electricians, plumbers, etc and those people don't need a four year degree to do thier job.
The problem is not lazy teamsters, it is "free trade" and corporate political control.
Have you even thought about this very much? Say there was a country where EVERYONE was willing to work for less than us and ALL our jobs got shipped overseas, how is that good for us?
Grow up, people. Wal*Mart only controls the job supply if you let it. Train yourself for something other than stocking shelves or waving UPC's over scanners. Especially since we're automating that function, too.
Wow, you're a rotten SOB aren't you?
See unlike you I realize that I was LUCKY to be able to go to the school I did. I worked hard, but I had advantages many others will never have. Sure I'm doing okay as an electrical engineer, but suggesting that everyone get an advanced degree is like suggesting that everyone become a pro football player. If you had a real grasp of the economics involved, you'd realize that there are other issues here, like distribuation of wealth, free trade, corporate welfare, limited demand for skilled labor, etc.
Just as not everyone can get rich throwing a ball through a hoop, not everyone can get rich by going to college.
PS Don't get me wrong. I'm not agaist as many people going to college as possible, but you're a fucked-up social darwinist if you believe those who can't succed at it deserve no quality of life whatsoever. It's sad to see someone have so much contempt for their fellow man just because HE doesn't think they studied enough.
Life is too short to proofread.
...can it run Deer Hunter 2003?
Shit, I went to college....a good one to, but it's not for everybody. We NEED dishwashers, electricians, plumbers, etc and those people don't need a four year degree to do thier job.
The problem is not lazy teamsters, it is "free trade" and corporate political control. Have you even thought about this very much? Say there was a country where EVERYONE was willing to work for less than us and ALL our jobs got shipped overseas, how is that good for us?
Countries like that exist right now, all over the world. Assuming you're in the US, we only account for 4% of the world's population, but a wildly disproportionate amount of income and resource consumption. Most of the world's populations live in countries where their annual wage looks like our median weekly paycheck.
How is that good for us? Countries, populations and subpopulations have to specialize. Some specialize in manufacturing, some in services, some in intellectual capital creation, etc. Everyone gets more efficient, and resources are used more optimally worldwide.
Every single person needs to think about how they can make lives better for those around them, how they can contribute to the success of the charity, business, family, or governmental institution they work for.
What grates on my nerves is the attitude of entitlement so many US citizens (and non-citizens) have. That they should be paid a wage wildly out of proportion to the value they bring to their employer. Should someone make $40K for driving a forklift? It has nothing to do with whether or not $40K is a "living wage" - it has everything to do with whether or not $40K is a good investment in human capital to get a job done. Far too many people, IMHO, expect to be paid what they want, not a fair return for the value they provide.
Does Wal*Mart owe someone $20 an hour for stocking shelves? No. Because it's not worth that kind of money. And the local merchant who DID pay their stockboys $20 an hour? He's out of business. Is that bad? Ask the people in town who all collectively pay less for their hardware and groceries. They always had the choice, when Wal*Mart moved to town, to shop at the local guy. But guess what? They didn't. And Wal*Mart grew into the world's largest retailer.
Heck yes, we need dishwashers, lawnmowers, etc. But most people dissatisfied with their wage have avenues to improve their skills and earn more. College is not necessarily for everyone, yet - soon it will be, just like high school is mandantory for most of the US population - but if you don't make it to college, don't expect to be paid like you did.
Wow, you're a rotten SOB aren't you? See unlike you I realize that I was LUCKY to be able to go to the school I did. I worked hard, but I had advantages many others will never have. Sure I'm doing okay as an electrical engineer, but suggesting that everyone get an advanced degree is like suggesting that everyone become a pro football player.
I DO appreciate my going to school. I owed a boatload of money for it too, which I paid back. I worked hard, and make a nice wage. And I don't sit around and complain that I should be making more, if I'm not willing to make myself more valuable. Which I am - I'm working on additional industry certifications right now. Will my pay go up? Probably not. But if I do a better job for my employer as a result of my increased skill level, that's a good thing.
If you had a real grasp of the economics involved, you'd realize that there are other issues here, like distribuation of wealth, free trade, corporate welfare, limited demand for skilled labor, etc.
I hope you see that I perhaps do have a deeper grasp of the issues than you assume.
Distribution of wealth - which is better, making a lot of local merchants quite well off, by charging high prices for every single nut and bolt to e
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Except Wal-Mart is completely against ever paying overtime, so you'll never work more than 40 hours a week.
Except that they also completely insist on getting all the work done. So sometimes managers have felt forced to make people work until the job is finished, and any work over 40 hours goes unpaid. They've been sued for it several times.
Wal-mart is the pinicle of a very successful business. You can't fault them for making money, it's what they are supposed to do.
I can fault them for doing it illegaly. I can fault them for driving manufacturers out of business by demanding 5% cost reductions every year. I can fault them for crushing any attempts to form a union.
I think he's talking about Edwards and Kerry.
Much of healthcare's expense is welfare for lawyers.
No, that would be welfare for the insurance industry.
My ex, a general surgeon in rural Montana who had never been the subject of a lawsuit, was paying seven figures for her yearly liability insurance.
From your other post, those aren't her personal costs for being a surgeon, those are the costs of running a business. If the entire liability for all the employees gets counted as your sister's personal liability, then its only fair that the wages of all the other employees are counted as only your sister's wages.
The American people let the legislators pull the wool over their eyes by allowing absurd jury awards, shuffling personal responsibility off to the nearest set of (presumably) deep-pocket targets, and otherwise fostering the stupidity du jour.
Nonsense. Trying to get *rid* of large damage awards is "pulling the wool over people's eyes". Instances of enormous negligence or incompetence require enormous consequences, or they'll just keep happening again. As if the doctor who amputated the wrong leg from a man, or the girl who died after a doctor transplanted an organ of the wrong blood type don't deserve to be sued for millions of dollars. Limited awards mean limited liability, and if liability is limited, doctors will be free to be sloppy and corners will be cut to save money.
States that have "tort reform" haven't lowered their medical costs, they've only allowed for sloppiness and pushed responsiblity back onto the consumer. Lawyers and lawsuites aren't the cause of high medical costs, they're a byproduct. Want to see insurance go down, tackle the insurance companies and take medical licences away from bad doctors.
Ideally, I think that such a system should be loaded with a real Linux distrobution. Then it would be a lot better.
By the way, anyone who thinks that you need a fucking kick-ass gaming system just to run OOo is wrong!! My desktop system is 566MHz with 256MB RAM, and my laptop is a 133MHz Pentium with 80MB!! Both of them run Slackware with X and XFCE just fine. (And yes, OpenOffice.org runs on both quite nicely, even with huge documents and several other programs running.) The specs for my systems are available here.
Honestly, I think that the only reason the Wal-Mart systems seem so slow is because everyone's used to Micro$oft and Lin$pire $tandard$ ...
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Oh, he said "Two lawyers ran for president," Edwards wasn't "running" for anything. After posting, I realized he might have been referring to other parties or primaries, but couldn't think of who he would have meant.
Oh, he said "Two lawyers ran for president," Edwards wasn't "running" for anything. After posting, I realized he might have been referring to other parties or primaries, but couldn't think of who he would have meant.
Hrm? What do you mean he didn't run for anything? Edwards finished #2 in the primaries, losing to Kerry, but he beat Dean, Gephart and the general dude who's name I cant remember.
> the general dude who's name I cant remember.
:)
General "Redface," Wesley Clark
> What do you mean he didn't run for anything? Edwards finished #2 in the primaries
Derrr, oh yeah. <BACKPEDAL, BACKPEDAL> When I said Edwards wasn't running for anything, I was thinking of him as the VP candidate.
Derrr, oh yeah.
:) Why is he called Redface?
Hey, you were right about Clark.
> Why is he called Redface?
:)
You can tell when he starts getting mad, his face turns bright red... and he shouts a lot