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Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
Never had the chance to do it myself since I build all my own systems. I've kept this in my Bookmarks for some time though:
www.windowsrefund.org
(In the title bar it says windowsrefund.net, but that site times out. Don't know what that's all about...)
How much of a refund would you get? I am guessing that you can not get
the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf. Do they try and
determine just what that vendor paid for it or would they try and
determine how much of the cost of the machine is represented by the OS
installed on it. That is, the difference between a machine sold with
XP installed and the same machine shipped with linux or no OS at all,
for example.
--greg Vulcan quiescent... Q: What machine shutdown with this message?
He tried to return a copy of XP that he purchased at his campus bookstore. First the bookstore refused the return. Then Microsoft refused. So he sold it on eBay. eBay took down the auction, but then later allowed it. Microsoft countered by suing him, and trying to take his 2002 Escort as damages. Good story. I won't ruin the ending.
--H
Karma be damned. You are asking Slashdot about getting a refund for OEM pre-installed Windows on a laptop that you haven't even bought yet?
Get a life!
About seven years ago I too was looking for a laptop and I wanted one without Windows on it. I won't divulge the vendor's name. After a frustrating attempt to explain my "customization" with the service rep, i.e., a "nude" laptop, he transferred me to his manager.... He at first declined to agree to sell me one, but after a moment, and a pause he AGREED... another pause, then he said, "But we'll have to charge you an extra $100 for it." (I am NOT making this up!) Kind of gives you a relative feel for what value (or negative value) Windows added to that laptop, n'est-ce pas?
To the post's question, I am in the similar situation of wanting a new laptop... Have found several that are very close to everything I want and need in a laptop, but ALL come with XP Pro -- which I'm assuming adds $100 to $200 to the cost of the machine and I intend to use the machine for linux ONLY.... and I'm not willing this time to ring one up for MS.
Heh. The last time I asked whether it was possible to buy a laptop without a pre-installed operating system, I was told that selling one could expose the company to litigation. The reason: knowingly selling a non-functional product.
The owls are not what they seem
....here.
Dashboard Widgets
Just got my Windows XP Pro refund from MS last week. Package contained several foreign coins, a coupon booklet, and one human soul.
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
the type of people who would want a refund for their copy of windows is the same type of people who not buy a computer from a manufacturer.
having said that, why should one have to go through all this trouble just to get a refund, i've seen an article explaining the very same procedure before, will this go on forever?
as long as the manufacturers can avoid it whenever possible, they will continue to splurt out BS over the phone as long as it's legal and gives them a slight chance that they can avoid the refund.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
This was previoulsy discussed on Slashdot here a few years ago.
Do you value your time so little that it's worth going through the hassle?
I guess if you're extremely principled, I can see doing it.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Why would you buy a prefab machine with windows knowing that you didn't want it in the first place? If I buy a car and don't like the rims, I don't ask the manufacturer or dealer for a refund. Don't buy from that vendor. No one put a gun to your head. This is stupid.
Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
The wording of that would lead me to belive that there are vendors that do offer an alternative. So once again...this is stupid.
...as getting a refund on an AOL cd.
is to just download a copy of XP corporate.
You get support for 2 cpu's, you don't have to deal with activation and can slipstream your drivers and service packs. You can install whenever you want, and even setup an unattended install to make it easier when the son of a bitch crashes on you.
Kind of like the barter system, where you get a voucher for your next purchase from MSFT. Lowe's and Home Depot do the same thing if you don't have the receipt, and it's not any more hassle than if you did and had to have your credit card so they could reimburse you.
The explanation why they declined was that the OS was a part of the package, just like a hard drive, and people are not expected to be able to return a HDD they don't like. They also mentioned that it's impossible for them to have OS-free laptops available because of so little demand.
So, in the end, it's my bad that I chose to buy a laptop that came with Windows. But what choice did I really have, especially when I wanted a budget-ish machine?
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
that you're getting an actual Windows cd, and not a manufacturer recovery cd.
Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want? There are plenty of hardware devices (computer and otherwise) that would retain some functionality if you removed part of the system, but do you have the right to pick and choose what you feel you need, and return those that you don't, do you?
To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back? The car works just fine without it, just like a PC works just fine without windows. To use a hardware/software analogy, can I buy a Cisco product that uses some IOS features I don't need, then tell Cisco I will simply remove the features and expect them to write me a check for "returning" them?
My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
Can't get Coral Cache or Mirrodot. Google cache turned up this result:
http://216.239.59.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahtt p% 3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxjournal.com%2Farticle%2F7040
--------------
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a writ
is worth the $15 bucks. I'd recommend getting all your ducks in a row, understand the court case, and precisely what it says about your rights. Feel free to call up and buy a laptop off the 1-800-NUMBER and ask to talk to the supervisor. They do use a SKU for whatever software they're putting on it. But the drives might just be pre-imaged en mass, so they'd have to be willing to have a person go and nuke the partition, or pursue something even more labor intensive.
It's a matter of what they're willing to do, how far they'll lay out for you. If you're ordering something off a business line, and you have it shipped to your "Company" (whatever form that takes) they'll probably be more likely to go that extra step.
That said. There are businesses that specialize in selling linux gear including laptops, and supporting that. Their prices aren't bad, and occasionally they're quite good. Not to mention, when you support many of them, you're supporting companies in your community, which *does* imporve it. Moreover, they're likely to be more focused on the experience of their individual customers, if you put in the effort to avoid the scammers.
Ultimately, any business has the right to say they just don't want to do what you want to pay them to do.
It's like a car... Say you get a nice audio setup but you were going to put in your own speakers afterward, you don't go back to the dealership and demand a refund.
Just because you don't want an item that comes with a package deal, the seller has no obligation to refund you the money for what you didn't want.
It's in the package price. Packaging items together reduces cost. That's how business works.
http://www.powernotebooks.com/ ships computers without an operating system installed. Check em out.
I also have a page of linux-preinstalled and no-OS laptop vendors. By my count there are at least 20 vendors that sell linux and no-os laptops, so nobody should have an excuse anymore for whining about not being able to find linux laptops.
P.S. All you currently looking for a laptop...please email me if anything on my list needs to be updated.
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
First time a non-article link gets slashdotted! We're getting heavy, guys (YEAHHHH)
Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
No. It is practically impossible. Next question, please.
sell the damn thing.
To get my refund, do I have to send back the nifty silver-colored drink coaster that came with my laptop?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
If you're going to use /. to advertise your blog, at least conceal it better...
Le français vous intéresse?
The server is already slow, so here it is:
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your r
If you're asking for extra labor, you should pay extra money.
If all their drives are pre-imaged with whatever selection OSs their inventory system can tolerate, that's good for 99.9995% of all their customers, why shouldn't the guy who wants to be different and have the work done for him pay for it?
Buy a Mac
Hey if roland can do it why not him. (sarcasm)
I hear they're more difficult about OS X refunds, though.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
It doesn't take a computer genius to want something that works just as well for free. My girlfriend, who wants Linux, knows almost NOTHING about computers except what I've taught her. Linux may not be for the lazy person who just wants their stuff to run, but it's definitely for the person who wants to save 100-200 dollars and is willing to settle with slight performance and software issues.
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
...or you just trying to score points among your friends by bragging about how cool you are for not having paid for a Microsoft product? And is that second of coolness really worth the hassle?
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
Picked up a Toshiba laptop at CompUSA last week. Inside the box is a note stateing that the package must be installed as a whole and no parts may be returned.
They saw you coming.
I find being offended by me offensive.
Simple Solution: Include a bootable Linux distro with the laptop. It proves it is working, but doesn't alter it in any way. It is about as close to free as you can get (cost of a blank cd). I would, in fact, recommend trying out the laptop with your bootable distro of choice before buying it. (if you can find the model you want in a brick-n-mortar store)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
pot. kettle. black.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Most of the time have no OS.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
I had no problem getting a laptop without Windows.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Take the Windows CD apply scotch tape to it in a fashion that allows you to tape it across the toilet seat (The part that my wife always tells me to put down). After that wait until the next morning, drink a big cup of coffee, and wait until that special moment arrives. You feel much better after shitting all over Windoze... just like they have done to so many people of the years... I'm not bitter... :)
No, but you could sell that spare tire without the automobile manufacturer suing you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
i question the objectivity of any review of an OS that minimizes the fact that the reviewer's keyboard doesn't work
...and they even included Mac OS X with it!
Yeah, cos naming a Linux distro after a penguin was just an absurd and outlandish suggestion, wasn't it?
the layman's guide to computer science
For example, when I had to buy a new car (damn soccer moms in minivans not paying attention to where they are going!) I was very clear to the dealer: "No leather seats. Cloth Seats."
The dealer's response was "But leather seats are on sale right now - no added cost! A $900 value!"
"No. I do not want leather seats. They take more care than cloth. They are too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter unless they are cooled and heated - and then that is just one more thing to go wrong. Cloth seats."
I got my cloth seats.
This bunk that they cannot sell a laptop without an OS because:
Is just that - bunk.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I've never received my money from the anti-trust suit. Has anybody else?
Oh wait you can't. The super operating system Linux is still not main stream enough to put on laptops. Use windows and let your mind be at ease knowing that you have the OS that is on 90% or more of personal computers. Linux on it's best day is maybe close to 4-5%. Come on go with the flow.
I once wanted to upgrade my old computer from windows ME (which I have had no problems with, I am one of the lucky ones) to Windows XP Professional. I decided to install it on a separate partition first to check compatibility since this was only a few months after it was even released. I installed it and found that, after installing all the latest drivers, my sound card, printer, scanner, modem, ethernet card, and firewire card were all dead, with no updated drivers to be found anywhere. I took the software back to the retailer and said that it wasn't compatible with my hardware and they said they don't take opened software (typical). I asked for a written copy of their return policy, they said they couldn't give it out. I asked how I could get a refund. They said to contact Microsoft. I called microsoft and told them what happened and they said to just send them the box and a copy of my receipt. I did and sure enough, a week later, I got a check for the full purchase amount, including sales tax and shipping! This is far from what MS is like now. Just for kicks, I called the national chain's regional office and asked how I could get a written copy of their return policy and they said "The store wouldn't give it to you?"
So the guy buys this laptop. However, at this point in time he hasn't accepted the Microsoft EULA for the operating system. This EULA specifically states: "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
If he hasn't agreed, he can return it for a full refund. If no-one is willing to give him a refund then Microsoft is in breach of its own license.
OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
I'm sure someone can find some use for those things, but lots of people need a desktop replacement machine.
I couldn't help but chuckle.. the likely amount anybody would actually get in return for what would likely be quite a lot of effort would pale in comparison to the reward/effort ratio from simply sending in rebate forms. And we all know how well those are acted apon.
I'm sure a few dedicated people would probably have the time/energy/persistence to see it through to the bitter end, but I suspect that actually sending in rebate forms would have a much greater payoff.
here
Seriously, you get your Unix kernel, CLI shell, X server, terrific hardware-software integration (check out the sleep feature), etc.
Admittedly, Apple needs to bundle more popular productivity applications.
--
"Extra Anus Kills Four-Legged Chick" -- Headline
I'm suing RCA - that piece of shit DVD player they sold me didn't play any movies when I pulled it out of the box, plugged it in, and pressed play.
Go and get one here:f =1
http://www.pricewatch.com/h/mn.aspx?i=336&
However I have always wondered as to how joe system builder down the street handles the whole non-oem windows thing?
Does he/she buy a separate copy and pass the cost to the buyer or get into one of those blood sucking never dying vampiry volume licensing agreements with M$?
And whatever happened to the refunds everyone was supposed to get as part of their anti-trust settlement? I sent my paperwork and never saw a thing.
From the link:
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
I think by his reasoning he was owed $499,985.00.
My
NEVER, EVER buy retail PC's!
It's much cheaper to buy them in parts - there are specialized stores that assemble them for you. Here, in Mexico, you buy your custom-made PC (with crappy hardware unfortunately, unless you know where to look), and they give you free, a "non-activated" version of Windows. You can uninstall it, or buy a copy with the activation key.
Go ahead. Buy whatever you want, pre-installed. Then, wipe the drive, return the CD's, and take a tax write-off on the software expense. Surely MS wouldn't want to obstruct justice by refusing to deal with your CPA/Accountant, nor would they want to reveal the true cost of the software?
C|N>K
I got a laptop with Unix instead of Windows without the need to seek a refund from Microsoft:
I got an Apple PowerBook.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
I purchased an IBM R50 back in April of 2004, IBM was willing to reduce the cost of the notebook by $100.00, but they did leave Windows XP home edition installed. Once I obtained the notebook, I removed Windows.
Anyone want to buy my un-used Windows XP License and key? Oh wait! That's not legal! Monopoly anyone!
Harry
If I was a HD manufacture, I'd considering implementing an imaging service on a massive scale. They provide me with an image which I neither know/care about and I protect like the proprietary information it is. I ship them the correct hard drives, all preimaged, almost completely automated, if not completely. Maybe I even provide them an interface which they can connect to remotely control which images are used and submit orders. I bill their accounts automatically. Sure I charge a modest premium but their labor savings are tremendous. Of course it's at the cost of a literal handful of customers. If that.
And dumbass. All cars come with factory stereo equipment. They don't swap it for cost.
All it is about is sophist arguments, and some people wanting their individual snowflake existance to be subsidised by people who don't share their particular proclivities. One-of's just cost more. Blame Ford.
OK ok. I haven't read the EULA, but I am sure at the end of the three thousand words (or whatever), It says [paraphrasing] that if you don't agree, send it back for a refund.
If you think about it, how else could it be a binding contract?
I'm not a lawyer though, and anything is possible.
Move along... there is no sig here.
> Then I wind up giving them away
Yeah, I'll take one.
Last summer my wife bought a Toshiba notebook. It came with Windows XP Home and the manufacturer refused to send a real install cd. (Even with a new copy of Windows, though, the system was still cheaper than the other notebooks she looked at with comparable specs; this one cost US$1k, at which point IBM notebooks are barely getting started.) When she opened the bok, a sticker on the shrinkwrap said:
So, yeah, Toshiba won't let you return the operating system by itself.
You can also get a custom built "barebone" laptop from many resellers that won't bundle Windows with your purchase if you don't want it.
Compal notebooks are nice (many barebone laptops are based on them, the CL56 model kicks 4$$), Voodoopc uses them as their base then mod them, they're worth it.
For Canada:
http://www.shoprbc.com/ (System Quote section)
http://www.ttx.ca/ (Notebook configurator)
You really have to ask if he values his time?
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
Linspire is not in the same "leage" as gentoo how? Because linspire users realize they are linux newbs? Running something like OpenOffice or Mozilla on a C3 is incredibly painful, which linux distro you're using doesn't change that.
Not strictly relevent, but I thought I'd share anyway.
Many, many years ago (well, about 7) I put together a PC for my dad. It was bleeding edge stuff, PII, 4 speed CD Writer, 56 k modem. Oh happy days.
Anyway, came time to install the OS. Now I had travelled home for the weekend form university to build this PC, and guess what I had forgotten to bring? Bingo, my Win 98 disc.
Incidently, yes I am owning up to committing copyright infringement. I fully accept that I this is wrong. I just don't care. At least I'm not hiding behind AC to do it.
So anyway, I had to go buy a copy of Win 98 from the local branch of PC World. I think it cost around £80. I took it home, installed it, burned a copy, then peeled the serial number sticker off the back of the CD case (or it might have been on the manual). Then I went back into PC world, and set about claiming a refund.
The first lackey I spoke to tried to tell me I was only entitled to a replacement. I persisted. This software, I told him, is not fit for purpose. Sale of goods act and all that. He eventually had to go get the manager, who stood arguing with me for what must have been a good twenty minutes. Eventually, I was refunded.
I knew what I'd done, so did the manager, but there was sweet Football Association he could do about it. So, if you ever want a refund on a copy of windows, you know how to get it, at least if you live in the UK.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Pirate away, mateys.
for all the fuss of the ms tax, hardwre compatiblity, etc., just by an ibook or PB. unless you do kernel development on x86, or linux specific development, there's nothing that runs on linux that can't be run under fink or open darwin. not to mention all the commercial apps that run without wine, crossover, et al. i know i'll get flamed, but i have been winfree since '98. really. i've run linux on my desktops since then. but it's more than software. the hardware itself is better. the battery life, keyboard, screen, etc. plus, wireless works flawlessly under os x. if you need a pc to dual boot, buy a thinkpad, they have i think the best comaptibility, and ibm has been fairly good about that. dell sucks. their laptops are throwaways given to road warriors because they come with warranties and it's easier to just send them back.
now, if you want a pure kde or gnome desktop, you can still do it, but there is little advantage versus running X under os x. everything open source app is there, just a compile away. if you want to spend sub $500, buy a refurbed thinkpad on ebay froma reputable source. otherwise, save yourself the trouble and by a mac.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html
I've bought a Dell Inspiron without any OS and received a $100 windows refund. I spoke to several different sales representatives who were trained to say that there was not enough interest so I demanded to speak to the supervisor. He knew exactly what I was talking about and offered me the choice between a merchandise credit or a windows refund which I chose. The secret to get a windows refund, at least with Dell, seems to be persistence.
I rather expect so, in both cases.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"Microsoft Windows XP Professional
END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User
License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you
(either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft
Corporation for the Microsoft software product identified above,
which includes computer software and may include associated
media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation,
and Internet-based services ("Product"). An amendment or
addendum to this EULA may accompany the Product. YOU AGREE TO BE
BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY
INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE
PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL
OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR
PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
1. GRANT OF LICENSE. Microsoft grants you the following rights
provided that you comply with all terms and conditions of
this EULA:
* Installation and use. You may install, use, access,
display and run one copy of the Product on a single
computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device
("Workstation Computer"). The Product may not be used
by more than two (2) processors at any one time on any
single Workstation Computer. You may permit a maximum
of ten (10) computers or other electronic devices (each
a "Device") to connect to the Workstation Computer to
utilize the services of the Product solely for File and
Print services, Internet Information Services, and remote
access (including connection sharing and telephony
services). The ten connection maximum includes any
indirect connections made through "multiplexing" or other
software or hardware which pools or aggregates
connections. Except as otherwise permitted by the
NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop
features described below, you may not use the Product
to permit any Device to use, access, display or run other
executable software residing on the Workstation Computer,
nor may you permit any Device to use, access, display,
or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless
the Device has a separate license for the Product.
* Mandatory Activation. The license rights granted under this
EULA are limited to the first thirty (30) days after
you first install the Product unless you supply
information required to activate your licensed copy in
the manner described during the setup sequence of the
Product. You can activate the Product through the use
of the Internet or telephone; toll charges may apply.
You may also need to reactivate the Product if you modify
your computer hardware or alter the Product. There are
technological measures in this Product that are designed
to prevent unlicensed or illegal use of the Product.
You agree that we may use those measures.
* Storage/Network Use. You may also store or install a copy
of the Product on a storage device, such as a network
server, used only to install or run the Product on your
other Workstation Computers over an internal network;
however, you must acquire and dedicate an additional
license for each separate Workstation Computer on or
from which the Product is installed, used, accessed,
displayed or run. A license for the Product may not be
shared or used concurrently on different Workstation
Computers.
* Reservation of Rights. Microsoft reserves all rights not
expressly granted to you in this EULA.
2. UPGRADES. To use a Product identified as an upgrade, you must
first be licensed for the product identified by Microsoft
as eligible for the upgrade. After upgrading, you may no
longer use the prod
hypersonic pc: http://www.hypersonic-pc.com/
offers laptops gives you to option of no OS for 100 $ cheaper. They have quality machines also.
E BAY!!
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
I'm all about linux. I love it. I even use as my main desktop. I also own a computer consulting / I.T. business, in which I sell systems. As an O.E.M. it is MY CHOICE to sell a system with WHATEVER software MY BUSINES DECIDES to offer. I have NO OBLIGATION to sell systems without Windows. If no one buys my systems.. then that's my problem. If you are really that hard up just build your own... and one more thing... quit polluting up slashdot with stupid queer ass articles like this.
Because that's what Windows costs for Dell.
There is no shortage of laptops with Linux pre-installed or OS free for self install. If you can't find them, then you haven't looked at all.
You can also get them from Wal-Mart and Linspire.
I bought my laptop of Powernotebooks.com, when you customize, and can remove windows xp to reduce the price by about 60 or 70 dollars.
...Lie.
The problem here centers around you wanting to buy a laptop on which you plan to put Linux. While I agree you absolutely, unquestioningly should have that option, and the law even somewhat agrees with our opinion on the matter, Dell can laugh off a lawsuit that would cost you 3x the price of the laptop, just to get a $199 refund.
So the secret here, to get your way - Shop as a "large business" customer. When you call, you want to buy 20 units, with a single unit initially to evaluate for suitability for your particular needs, the nature of which you of course can't disclose due to an NDA.
Naturally, your department already has a 500-license VLK version of XP Pro, and anyway, you need to throw Datacenter Server 2003 on it (for which you already have 37 licenses with three spares) so don't need XP in the first place, so would the kindly send it to you unimaged.
At this point some companies will flat out refuse, but most will put greed ahead of common sense and play along.
It will help to make up a PO number (that just appears on your invoice, it doesn't actually "mean" anything if you pay by credit card) and some bogus company name at your address (again, doesn't mean anything, you'll still get it as long as you have your name on the shipping address).
Toshiba gave me a windows refund for my M200 tablet PC. I insisted in buying one without any software installed and initally was told that this was impossible. I had to redial several times and finally spoke to the head of the sales department who admitted that lately they are getting many requests about windows-free hardware and the windows refund program. He told me there was no warranty on the harddrive because their test software was windows and sold me the machine without windows and issued me the requested refund. He indicated that Toshiba is on the verge of anouncing windows-free machines if demand persists. Good job, Toshiba!
Actually, I just checked the EULA. It says if I don't agree with the contract, I'm entitled to return the Windows license and get a refund. So I wrote to the importer once again...
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I really wish more people would understand this concept.
I work in Gateway customer service so here's the official policy on this (and it was hard enough to find when I got hired and was curious so it'll probably be a bitch if you call and get one of the largely incompetent people who work there).
You cannot buy a computer without Windows on it. We simply will not do it. The way the ordering system is set up we cannot get it to go through no matter how sympathetic we are. Likewise if you purchase the system Gateway has determined that you agreed to the license the moment you power on the system. If you decide not to accept the license they will only accept the return of the software if you return the entire system (this being true of any pre-installed software that you want to return).
In other words don't buy Gateway. Then again, even if you aren't interested in the refund don't buy Gateway. They sell crap and their customer service (employees, polcies, turn-around times, etc.) are crap. While I wouldn't have bought one before I started working there I sure as hell wouldn't now.
How is parent a "troll". Sure its criticism but its not a troll as in "trolling for suckers". Hes not trying to trick people into getting pissed off. If anyone is trolling for PR its the grandparent post.
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
There is a key difference. You have a fee type interest in the real property involved in the car and its parts (subject to liens, perhaps, but you own it). Software is sold with a license. This is a very different kind of property right.
A fee interest gives you the full rights of ownership, including the ability to exclude. To give you a fee interest the previous owner has to give up their fee ownership.
A license simply give you permission to do something, in this case use the software. The person who sold it to you retains all their rights. All their rights, include the ability to exclude you, because in common law licenses were freely revocable.
When you sell a neighbor your lawnmower you give them a fee interest, when you let them borrow it, you give them a license.
In order to SELL a license you have to make it valuable. Something that is freely revocable is not all that valuable. The solution is the license agreement. This is a contract that limits the granter of the license's ability to revoke it.
When you buy a copy of Windows you buy a license to use it, but you also buy a contract with the company that limits their ability to revoke the license. The problem is that contracts must be made by mutual agreement. If you don't agree to the contract you have "bought" a license that is freely revocable, and thus probably worthless.
This is why there is a return clause in the license. If all they are selling is a license without an agreement they have a serious issue with a potential fraud claim, they would end up selling something that, at the time of sale might be so uncertain as to be worthess.
Copyright law only prevents me from making additional copies of Windows, excluding some fair use scenarios. How I use my own authorized copy is none of Microsoft's business.
If you are persistent enough you can get a Dell notebook without windows and a $100 refund. You need to speak to the right sales guy, mention your fear of preinstalled viruses and spyware, the Microsoft anti-trust ruling against bundeling software, etc. and you'll succeed. For some reason I had to waive the warranty on the hard disk and it took them a while to process it but it was the easiest $100 I've ever made.
A good source to get a laptop without Microsoft Windows is . As an added bonus, these systems will run Linux quite readily (although you'll have to install it yourself).
Yaz.
I dare you to buy a computer from me and ask for a refund. At my company you WILL get your ass kicked for that. How's that for customer service ? You stupid prick ! Just the fact that you are looking for a windows refund tells me that you don't deserve to use linux. What do you think you are going to do ? .. put Microsoft out of business by asking for a winblows refund ? Get a life and move on.... I personally would like to see Toshiba, Dell and the other O.E.M.'s have an ass kicking dept just for stupid fucks like you.... not only do you not get a refund... you get the shit kicked out of you just for asking a stupid fuck ass question. You must be hanging out with that stupid queer who came up with a "commercial" distro based on debian. What was that ... "User Linux" ... yea go hang out with him.
Gateway has the cow. Dell has the anoying "dude" guy.
From my own experience and those of my friends I can only say that persistence is the key to getting a refund. You might want to speak to the supervisor of sales right away. Especially large companies like Gatway, Dell, HP, etc. instruct their sales personel to give "not enough demand" as an excuse. However, if you explain the legality of bundeling software with hardware they suddenly listen and happily sell you a blank system and give you a windows refund.
umount
Really, read that whole "split the difference" part.
(1,000,000 + 10) / 2 = 500,005
So his math isn't really off at all, considering that he hasn't cashed the check they already sent him.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
But since that is part of the EULA, if you don't accept the EULA you have no agreement with Microsoft to refund your money.
(Repost -- fixed my bad HTML. Sorry!).
A good source to get a laptop without Microsoft Windows is here. As an added bonus, these systems will run Linux quite readily (although you'll have to install it yourself).
Yaz.
Will you be posting a follow-up somewhere? At some point I'll probably buy a laptop here and it would be good to know how/if others have managed to get refunds. I have seen several "success stories" but they've mostly been from the U.S. or Australia. Maybe yet another Refund-HowTo site should be set up (or one of the existing ones be improved) so that you could contribute and browse success stories or advice according to country.
The guy was making a habit of buying educational software and reselling it on EBay. That's pretty shady anyway.
Also, I'm curious how someone only making $3,500/year (according to the article), can afford a printer to sell for $1,000 on EBay. Check out his feedback. (Interestingly, the buyer says he never got the printer and our esteemed Windows-refunder made off with the $1,000!) Nice.
I had a Dell laptop for ages, but it irked me to no end that they made me pay for a bunch of useless crap. I've had this powernotebooks laptop for a year now; it arrived with a blank HD as I requested, and their Linux support forums are excellent.
I did and bought an D900T Phantom, sans Windoze. Fantastic customer support, highly recommended. Lapdog runs Gentoo by the way.
## NB: Comment here
I bought my laptop (A Sager 5690 - model no longer sold on their site) from http://www.discountlaptops.com/, and I couldn't be happer with it. No operating system, great value, and excellent customer service. I also paid about $1,000 less for my laptop than I would have paid if I bought it from Dell (P4 w/hyperthreading, 2GB ram, 1400x1050 LCD, over a year ago). If you don't believe me read their buyer ratings at the bottom of their web site. I actually had to return my laptop for repairs because of a faulty motherboard, and they paid for all the shipping and had my laptop back to me in a few days. The owner of the company emailed me several times before I bought the laptop and answered questions I had about it (like what ethernet chip it had), and made *objective* suggestions about which laptop I should buy. The owner also contacted me several times during my warranty work episode and I felt extremely comfortable that he was making sure that I was well taken care of by Sager. (Sager and Chembook are two of the main manufacturers that they sell on their site. These are the companies that sell to places like Alienware, Hypersonic PC, Pro-star, Voodoo PC and many others. I'm running Ubuntu Hoary on it now, and have not had any problems at all. Before this I ran Fedora Core 2 and 3 with no problems (save the faulty motherboard).
I can't recommend discountlaptops.com enough. I don't work for them or anything like that, I am just a happy, happy customer. You can bet my next laptop will be from them as well.
-- http://www.MindBlowingPhotos.com
Photography inspired by music, nature and life itself.
What a nightmare. 2000pro, an older OS, works more flawlessly with the native Toshiba hardware.
XP home was free (as in beer) and worth it.
Hi, I'd like a hotdog. Two bucks? Great! Hey, listen, do you have ketchup and mustard and relish and stuff? Over there? Cool. How much does it cost?
Oh, it's included in the price? Right on! Thanks!
Ok, so, but that ketchup and stuff, it must cost you something, right? I buy ketchup at Safeway and the smallest bottle they sell is a buck.
Right, yeah, cool.
Ok, so, can I have a plain hotdog, for a dollar? See, I have my own sauce, I brought it from home. It's home-made, see. I downloaded the recipe from the internet. You want some of my sauce? You can have it for free, I bet tons of your customers would love this stuff, it's great.
No? Ok, well anyway: How about that dollar-off, plain hotdog?
What? But, see, I'm not gonna use any of your ketchup. I'm leaving it in the bottle. If you give it to me anyway, I'll have to scrape it off, see... you might as well just keep it. And since ketchup costs a buck, I'll have my hotdog for a dollar off.
No. Seriously man, here's the two bucks for the hotdog. If you won't give me a buck back for not using the ketchup, would you at least figure out how much that ketchup costs per-hotdog, and then take THAT off the price? Even if it's only ten cents per hotdog, I should still get the refund 'cause I'm not using the ketchup.
Ok, yeah, I could take some ketchup and then re-sell it on ebay, but really, why would someone buy my used ten-cents worth of ketchup... it might be dirty. Plus you can't really sell open ketchup like that. I'm sure there's a regulation. Who knows what I'm selling? It might not be real ketchup. It could be filthy, full of viruses. I'm sure Heinz would not like me representing it as their product.
So, c'mon, one hotdog for a buck, or, show me your balance sheet and then we'll just take off what the ketchup really costs. At least.
Huh? OK, fine, screw you! I'm going home and making my own damn hotdog! Dammit!
I am allowed to criticize you: you are not allowed to criticize me. Sorry, that's just how things are.
Is the Pope Catholic?
Get your own free personal location tracker
Actually, he would be buying Windows, as it is "bundled" with the hardware and included in the price. Unless the manufacturer can prove he's not adding anything to the cost (and find a judge or jury who will actually believe that B.S.), Windows is being purchased.
You can demand a dealer remove options from a car, and they have to do it. If you don't want the stereo (because you hate music, or plan to install your own hi end system) you can tell the dealer to remove it and adjust the price and they have to do it (in the US anyway). That is the law, and IIRC it isn't specific to autos - so it should apply to PC's also.
One of the reasons PC manufactures all include Windows is because Microsoft lobbied congress and had a law passed (or just sued a few makers and established precedent, I don't recall) that states that it's not a computer unless it has an OS. It's only a "kit" or a "barebones" system. Manufacturers have a hard time selling "kits", as it implies that hours of assembly (and skill) are needed, so they include what has been (for quite a few years) the only commercial OS available. After all, they pay very little for their bulk license, and profit by marking it up. Linux, until recently, didn't have a name brand commercial distro they could profit from.
BTW, IANAL but I did pay attention to the whole OS being required thing, and am quite sure that info is reasonably accurate in the US. In any other country YMMV. Your vendor / hardware maker is legally obligated to give you a refund (and recieve credit from MS) but they will NOT make it easy. I believe MS won't refund unless you have an official Microsoft Windows disc, not just a OEM disc made by the manufacturer.
All in all, good luck. While you could try finding a laptop without an OS, they are hard to find and may not have the features you're looking for.
Tommy
Open Source for Open Minds
Actually, no. You can't demand anything. A car dealer can simply refuse to sell you the car in the configuration you want.
Secondly, even if they do sell you the car, they only have to remove "options" that are in the car. You can't, for example, demand to remove the steering wheel and be compensated for the price because it's part of the base package and the steering wheel is not a line item of that.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
I never bothered to try to get a refund, because it looked like it would be a pain in the ass.
What I would have happily done (and what I had assumed I would do, at the time I bought the computer), is resell that copy of Windows to some other sucker. But even that was denied to me. No, not by a marketplace (e.g. eBay) opting to not work with me, but because my Windows copy only consisted of a couple of hard disk partitions. The laptop had not even come with a Windows CD -- it merely came with Windows preinstalled on one partition, and a backup partition intended for reimaging the first one. (Note that, in hindsight, not coming with a CD isn't as weird as it might sound, since the laptop doesn't have a CD drive. A normal user wouldn't have any way to use a CD, without extra equipment.)
Thus, to sell my Windows, I would have had to sell the hard disk, and that would have been inconvenient. Furthermore, once you have a new toy, you want to use it right away, so I had already nuked the partitions before I even realized the box hadn't contained a Windows CD. Within 20 minutes of having received the box from UPS, I didn't have anything to resell.
What I learned from this, is: if you do buy a machine preloaded with Windows, and you're not willing to just eat the extra cost, then make sure it comes with a CD so you'll have something to resell. (Unless you wanna diddle around with selling a hard disk.)
Very clever of MS. Be aware.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
you can do this.
http://www.sub300.com/
They have a really neat ultra-lite for less than $900. Lindows, sure, but I think you can get without OS as well.
I've never bought anything from them though, so I have no clue about their business practices or such.
If Microsoft, or the retailers of its products, are refusing to grant a refund when the very license they wrote says you MUST return the software and get a refund in order to be released from the license, then aren't they committing a consumer fraud?
And if so, might there not be enough Linux users who bought laptops with a "Windows tax" to form a large enough class that some law firm could be encouraged to take up the case?
Computers and cars R very similar, in that there is a limited number of suppliers, and the cost of the item is , to a very large extent, driven by volume and automated manufacturing.
If any of the posters in this thread had the slightest idea of how things are actually made, they would know that a non standard item is always more expsenseive.
There are always a small minority bitching that they cant get their pet item. I don;t know what the analogy in car land is, but I am sure there are a lot of car buffs pissed off because what they want is not sold by std vendors, and is an expspensive aftermarket addon.
I don't understand your logic as to why software makes a product different. You still buy it at the store, you still look for a cheap item, etc. What does the general purpose thing have to do with how I go to compusa or whatever and look at the 599, the 699, the 799, etc - this is exactly like going to toyota, and looking at the camry ce, the le, the xle, leather....
I guess the exact analogy would be ethanol fueled cars, or something like that.
PowerNotebooks.com
Digital Citizen
Ok, why would you drop the horrid ui of windows for gnome? I'd think someone dropping windows would do it to get something better, not worse.
The Farewell Tour II
... and buy from a laptop vendor that will sell you a laptop without windows. A good example is powernotebooks.com. It may not have the hardware feature set you were looking for, but you have to decide whether the included hardware or software is more important.
I'm curious about this, too. If the HD is pre-imaged at, say, Seagate, then who decides that "It's an HP, so load it up with spyware"?
As I understand it, EULAs that offer concessions such as "we will refund your cash" fall partially under contract law. As such, once the contract is broken (for example by a refund not being provided) surely all bets are off.
The GPL is a pure license, so doesn't have this sort of worry.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
If you want to add cheese to a Big Mac, McDonalds charges and extra 50 cents.
*BUT*
If you order a Quarter Pounder w/Cheese WITHOUT the Cheese they won't give you 50 cents off!
I don't like cheese, I can't eat it but I have to pay for it. It's not like it's some integral part of the sandwich. They take it off at my request, and don't even include it in half of the sandwiches they sell but I'm still left paying for something I never received.
I've gotten a discount twice, but I always have to talk to the manager. I've never had considered a lawsuit, but now I'm thinking maybe I should.
The Microsoft EULA has certain provisions, such as the refund, that imply a contract between the licensor and licensee. If MS refuses to live up to its requirements under said document, I can't see how the licensee could be expected to live up to theirs. I imagine that the product would default back to canonical copyright rules of "copy this and die".
If so, that would cut through 95% of the crap in the license.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
They have a category for vendors that sell laptops (and desktops too) without an OS installed.
Too lazy to create a sig...
Is windows still insecure?
There's your answer.
wba.
Huh?
...thanks for reminding me to metamoderate.
under copyright law, Microsoft's license is the only thing that allows you to use their software at all
How, given 17 USC 117 and foreign counterparts?
Microsoft lobbied congress and had a law passed (or just sued a few makers and established precedent, I don't recall) that states that it's not a computer unless it has an OS. It's only a "kit" or a "barebones" system
And a Ubuntu Live CD doesn't qualify how?
Linux, until recently, didn't have a name brand commercial distro they could profit from.
"Recently" as in since last century? Red Hat has been on the scene for a long time (for instance, Red Hat Linux 6 was first published in 1999), and now there are SUSE, Linspire, and lots of other commercial distributions. Why haven't the PC vendors caught up?
1%, 99%, you are either right or you are wrong.
The difference is that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist. Therefore, it has to play by stricter rules, or the Democrats will press antitrust charges as soon as President Bush leaves office in 2009.
DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
In the case of OEM versions of Windows OS, it could be argued that "THE PRODUCT" and "IT" refer to the whole computer.
True, when you bought your iBook or PowerBook computer, you got a rather nice computer running a usable OS with BSD underpinnings, but how fast does it run software written in x86 assembly language or that otherwise has been made available only for x86 architecture? I can't imagine that your Macintosh computer with a PowerPC CPU could run the Bochs emulator fast enough to make x86 apps under FreeDOS or GNU/Linux or FreeBSD usable. Or has Bochs's execution speed improved by an order of magnitude in the last year?
Atleast with other laptops, you get a WinXP Installation CD. With my IBM Thinkpad R40, which came installed with WinXP, does not even have an installation CD. WinXP installation files are in the hidden hard disk partition!! How do I get a refund?
Why would you even consider spending money on a laptop w/ Windows installed when you can buy an Asus whitebook like my Z80K? For $1100, I have a high resolution lcd which is non-existant among any laptops I could find, and has a ATI 9600XT.
$129 worth of coupons for MS software!
Selling of any product carries with it an implied license to use that product for it's designed purpose. This has been settled at court for some time. So, software sold without a EULA can be used for it's intended purpose, no problem.
Of course, consumers can limit their ability to use a product by agreeing to a license defining the limits of the use. This stems from the right to contract, held very sacred in the US. Provided the EULA is held as binding (people love to argue this hasn't been settled yet despite court cases to the contrary), the fact that the software manufacturer breaches the terms of it does not mean the consumer can no longer use the software. It simply means the consumer has a claim against the manufacturer for breach of contract, as any party does against another party who breaches a contract between them.
The interesting thing about the MS EULA is that it states that the consumer will get a refund from the POS store. (Point Of Sale, not Piece of Shit) But this won't have any legal bindingness on the POS store unless MS has a contract with the store requiring them to provide a refund. Without such a contract, it would be up to the store's policy, or state or commonwealth laws on sales. I just have not heard anything on this topic.
For anyone chosing to sue their POS store for the refund, I guess the first interrogatory before trial would be whether they accepted any duty to provide Windows refunds in their agreements with MS or it's distributors.
People don't seem to be noticing that the manufacturer is selling an "integrated product." That includes the loaded OS. If the click through is the first thing you see when you boot the computer, and you refuse the license, and the company is willing to refund the price whole purchase fee and take back the laptop, they are fulfulling their obligation. Yay! I want to go to Hawaii! Yay!
How much are they bundling in that we don't need just because they know they can charge our health insurance?
Worst review ever. Are you mentally handicapped or something?
...which I asked for in $2 bills.
there's several companies selling Laptop's either w/out an OS or with a version of Linux. Just get one of those, my next laptop will be one like that.
So, why don't you buy a Linux-only laptop then?
...
Terrasoft Solutions sell Linux-only laptops, desktops and servers using Fedora Core 2 based YDL.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/
They specialise in PPC only, so if you insist on an x86 powered machine then you'd have to find another such shop. I am confident there must be companies just like Terrasoft who specialise in x86 based Linux pre-installed gear.
In fact, a quick google search for "linux preinstalled laptops" shows the this very interesting site as first hit
http://mcelrath.org/laptops.html
according to that site, there are plenty of options for people interested in x86 based Linux-only laptops.
the macintosh asterisk mailing list http://www.astm
What happens when the manufacturer offers you a full refund for the whole laptop, but not for sections of bundled components? Is it vaid for them to do this? Is there a valid timeout? What happens if you keep buying laptops and refunding them once a month, backing up your partition and reinstalling it each time you get your new unit?
What happens when the manufacturer puts a seal on the packaging and says "by opening thism you agree to use the software" or something in more legally respectable language?
Believe with me, my saplings.
For a short time last year one could buy nx5000 HP notebook with SuSE 9.1 pre-installed (only in the US) http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/3219 57-64295-89315-321838-f33-395654.html
Configure and buy link in the web page does not work now. I remember some press release HP announced that they would prefer to enter this (pre-installed linux) market and were testing the feasibility in the US. I think every other linux journal http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7845 had rave reviews including one at MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5831949/ but alas all has failed to deliver.
HP sponsored even a KDE summit in Germany by supplying Linux laptops. http://dot.kde.org/1094715499/
and got an apologetic letter too. They EULA says that if you do not agree to the license, you can return it to the retailer for a refund.
I had to take watford electronics to court (small claims), though they backed down about a week before they court appearance.
The interesting thing about their defense was it was "The EULA is not binding on us because we are a third party, the license being between microsoft and yourself".
My reply was that they purchased the OEM copy with that EULA and that it was I that had no relationship to MS. If they didn't want to be bound by the EULA then they could have put a different version of Windows on there.
Why, then, is there a separate EULA for the software that you have to agree to after the purchase? If it is an integrated product, there should be an EULA for that product before sale and agreed to.
I bought a laptop late last year. One of the things I was considering was asking for a refund for windows. However, on opening the cardboard box, I found that the laptop was enclosed in shrinkwrap with a bright yellow sticker attached. The sticker said something to the effect of "This product is sold with Windows, if you don't want Windows, then please return the whole thing unopened. Refunds will not be given for just the software, and by opening the packet you agree to this."
... don't like the mess, then they could stop offering the refunds when one does not agree to the EULA.
But they will not do it because then they would fall foul of legislation in most places that forbids to tie in sales of one product (computer) only if you buy another (Windows).
The offer of the refund is not from the goodness of their hearts. Making almost imposible for consumers to get something they are entitled to is immoral and your criticism of people trying to get what is rightly theirs is ridiculous and preposterous.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Are you Billy Gates? Then yes, by all means pay somebody else to get a computer, your time may be literally valued at millions.
Are you a regular guy that would be doing something else completely unproductive otherwise? Then your time is not worth as much as you think, saving 100 bucks could be worth the hassle.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... sarcastic, dislexic or forgetful?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
YES!
Next question please.
realkiwi
Where I work is a 99% Microsoft Site (stop booing, I only work there ;) )and we have a Microsoft Enterprise Agreement and a contract to buy Dell Kit. To avoid paying for Windows twice, our Dell Laptops and PC's come with a blank HD and a copy of FreeDOS on CD.
Not sure if a retail customer can do this, but it might be worth ringing Dell to ask.
Jonathan
When we buy new computers at my work, my Dell rep said that they must come with Windows XP Pro. We corporately have an EA agreement, so on top of paying for Windows with the machine, we end up paying close to $700 for each machine's EA license (OS/Office/CALs). Why should we pay twice for Windows?
Notice that it implies that you own a copy in the law, not liscence.
In the phrase "owner of a copy", "a copy" is the disc that the computer program is shipped on. 17 USC 101 explains:
Who is the "owner" of the shiny disc is determined by state law, which usually implements the Uniform Commercial Code. Based on my limited understanding of retail law, "licensing a copy" would sound more like renting copies from the publisher, which in fact is the case in some site license agreements.
But I still don't know what makes these EULAs valid.
One theory is that it's the anti-circumvention provisions (17 USC 1201) enacted as part of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. When you buy a copy of a computer program, you become the owner of a copy. However, it is encrypted and useless to you without decryption, and the conspicuous statement on the box makes this limitation known to you before the purchase. The installer is an access control mechanism that decrypts the program in exchange for your assent to what amounts to a non-interoperate agreement. Circumventing this installer may break the DMCA.
I can't believe nobody mentioned this. There are tons of Linux computer vendors - Pogo Linux, Penguin, Monarch, Emperor.
Not everything has to be a frigging Dell.
What desktop someone is using has nothing to do with it, unless they don't have enough RAM. Once the desktop environment has started up, it doesn't really use any CPU, just RAM. And I used openbox on both the machines I am basing my comparison on. Mozilla and OO run unacceptably slow on my 2Ghz p4m laptop for crying out loud, on a C3 it took over 15 seconds! for firefox to start up, which is just rediculous.
what if you took the preloaded drive out and sold that (on eBay if they allow it - which they might - especially since you never powered it on - or maybe you have to power it on once so it is transferrable ...) and put a brand new "nude" drive in? Or have I violated warranties and junk (probably)..
I guess that is why I've been building my own since '86.
Lost in space at an early age. Survived the vacuum. Now rebuilding castle in air.
I recently Bought an Asus laptop. It came with lots of software pre-installed, and a disk that reinstall everything. Seeing as I don't have to click on anything or accept anything (no eulas are visible), what can I possibly do to get a refund?
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
The margins in low-end computers are so low that you will see the same problem with any vendor.
Shell out enough money for high-end PCs with large margins (probably more expensive than a Mac), then the customer service will not be as bad.
I would rather buy a Mac with that money though.
Note that the refund statement is made unconditionally. There is no mention of extra charges, and making that up on the spot will violate Trade Description rules.
In the UK this company would have its nuts nailed to the wall by the Trading Standards office if they tried to pull this one.
Sadly, even Trading Standards doesn't address the root problem called Microsoft. Too politically dangerous.
I sucessfully returned a boxed copy I purchased from my local Wal-Mart.
I took it home, opened it, then 1 week later took it back to Wally's. They told me they did not accept returns of opened software. I pointed out the location on the back of the box where it said "if you do not agree with the license, please return it to where you bought it". I said I did not agree with the license after I had read it, and would like to return it.
After a few minutes of reiterating this information, they gave my my money back.
This has all come at a rather good time for me. I am in the market to buy a new laptop! I was looking at the Sony Vaio S360 (Small form factor with a ATI 9700!Anyone know of any other 13.3" or smaller laptops with a decent vid card?? Preferably nvidia) and had been having an email correspondence with a Sony Sales rep about this exact same question. I was about to give up after they answered that they didn't think the laptop would work without Windows, but now have new hope. I remebered vaguely something about this, and knew that being forced to buy a product that I don't want, won't use and can't sell wasn't right. I am going to talk to the store where I will purchace the laptop in advance so they can do their research and determine that I am not a crazy person and really am standing on solid ground. If nessisary I will go to court about this, as the money we are talking about here is substancial and well worth the cost of a small claims trial. If anyone is intrested I will post my experiences on this when it happens. I should be getting new lappy in about a month or so if all goes well. Thanx again for the reminder!
Whatever happened to the refund of Windows purchases several years ago? Has anyone received any refund?
I never received mine, after having sent the refund form related to a settlement of lawsuit in California for Windows that came bundled with a laptop.
I have made some notes about this in my blog. (here, and followup here)
I hope that this might be of use to others as well!
WTF is cosine naming?
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
"unmount" works fine for me... perhaps you are using a different OS are you using linux? Im not talking about Linux but you probably think thats what my sig is about. Also you might want to TRY using "unmount" last time i was on a linux system it worked just fine...
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep