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Jobs Claims Microsoft Is Shamelessly Copying
Nicholas Roussos writes "Steve Jobs was outspoken at a recent annual shareholder meeting. He claimed 'They are shamelessly copying us', referring to Microsoft. Of course, Microsoft has done its share of pointing fingers as well." From the article: "Most telling, Jobs said is that Tiger, the next version of Mac OS X, will go on sale later this month, while Longhorn is still more than a year away."
Search: Tiger will feature a built-in local search technology called "Spotlight" (technology built upon the search engines that Apple currently uses to search iTunes and e-mail). Microsoft has said it plans to offer a similar local-machine search engine for Longhorn that will be based on the company's Windows File System (WinFS) technology.
Scripting:Tiger will include a front-end scripting environment known as "Automator." Longhorn will include a new scripting shell (currently in beta test) known as "Monad."
Built-in RSS support: Tiger will embed an RSS aggregator into the Safari browser. Longhorn will include an embedded RSS feature in the user interface.
Info-Display Panel: Tiger will have an information-display capability called "Dashboard." Longhorn will have an information-display panel called "Sideshow," to which users can "pin" collections of items of interest.
Integrated Instant Messaging/Video Chat: Tiger will feature a souped-up version of iChat. Microsoft will embed Windows Messenger (a sister to MSN Messenger), which also will likely feature video-chat.
64-Bit Support: Tiger will include extended 64-bit capabilities. Longhorn allegedly will be optimized for 64-bit systems.
As many an Apple advocate has pointed out, Tiger is set to debut at least a year before Longhorn. That's a pretty significant head start, especially for folks who have no corporate edicts, application constraints or other limitations on which hardware/software platform they choose.
Nazi Pope Emblem
"More shameless... ...pointing fingers..."
I foresee a new name coming out of Microsoft headquarters in about a month and a half when OS X wows its first users.
Welcome to 1982-1984.
If M$ had a customer base as small as Apple's, I'm sure they'd be able to put out new releases every six months as well.
Apple's putting out new major versions about every 18 months these days.
I think that this is a lot of hot air. Apple is so far ahead of anything anyone else in the techn sector that someone copying them is only natural.
Even with the amount of development power available to Microsoft, they have never been able to catch up to Apple, the industry leader. This is not to say that Microsoft is somehow bound by their develpment skill, but rather their creativity.
Apple, in contrast to Microsoft, has taken the bold step of basing their operating system on Unix, which allows them to tap into the vast stores of development resources latent in the IBM/Solaris camps. Microsoft, unyielding, relies on their own developers who are slowly (but rapidly gaining speed) migrating to the more stable Unix-based systems.
I love Steve Jobs, but I think he's a little paranoid here. Losers always copy the winners. It'd be better to take comfort in the comfortable lead that Apple's got, rather than complain about parrots.
I believe it was Voltaire who said that imitation was the sincerest form of flattery.
By that logic, the more users there are of a product, the better designed and more reliable it should be, due to the greater meantime between releases. I guess that makes a lot of sense, what with how much more reliable Windows is than OSX and how much better polished and usable it is. *cough*
I just finished reading Revolution in the Valley. One of my favorite quotes from the book is when Jobs confronts Bill about copying the Mac, and Bill says, "No, Steve, I think its more like we both have a rich neighbor named Xerox, and you broke in to steal the TV set, and you found out I'd been there first, and you said. "Hey that's no fair! I wanted to steal the TV set!"
the cosmos in 20 words or less: thumbuki.com
It must be copying? These are some pretty serious allegations from mister Jobs and he'd better watch his lips or the Microsoft Lawyer army will have fun with slander.
That's how the flowdown goes. Let's not throw stones in glass houses here, folks.
Linux and most OSS software is not exactly an innovator in any sense, it's mostly just a reimplementation of proprietary software already in existence.
But anyways, isn't all progress built on the success of others? Why should we deride Microsoft for implementing things that are good?
New icons in Longhorn will more match those in OS X too. It's only a matter of time before somebody creates a reliable emulator so OS X will run on PCs. http://www.severdia.com http://www.rontheactor.com
http://www.kontentdesign.com/
Dashboard is a Konfabulator clone.
Click here to give me 1/250th of an Opera license!
He claimed 'They are shamelessly copying us',
And killing you in the market. Still. More focus on winning on less on being beaten please.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Exactly. The big guys always have to take cues from the smaller ones because they simply can't afford to do anything that might be risky.
Political parties do the same thing.
Direct away from face when opening.
They licensed the GUI and the mouse from Xerox. Stop getting your knowledge "out of the air" and look it up. Xerox was paid a significant amount for them, including apple stock.
Wait, so that means Commodore64 is the world's most popular platform? And everyone uses Betamax?
Yes. Because steal is definitely the same as license and pay for, and in 2005, everything is exactly the same as it was in 1982.
Oh wait. It isn't? It's not? Well then I guess it's not hypocritical.
concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
Well OS X is definitely "polished," and you can add "brushed" to the description as well.
Usability is debatable though.
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
Longhorn does copy some features of Tiger. Even their "It Just Works" mantra is ripped from OS X Switch campaign that Apple launched years ago. One of the main criticisms I had with Gates and Co is that for years they tout all these "innovations" that Windows brings but in reality many of the innovations were either copied or bought from others.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
If by steal you mean legally came to an agreement with xerox. Then yes.
Search: `locate`, even find but I think what theyre talking about is more locate-like.
Scripting: bash, perl, python.
Built-in RSS Support: Firefox.
Info-Display Panel: gdesklets and wm-apps come to mind, or gkrellm.
Integrated Instant Messaging/Video Chat: Alright, I'll give them this one. Though gaim is coming along and skype has video now I believe.
64-Bit Support: They act like this is new.
(\_/)
(O.o) This is Bunny. Add Bunny to your signature
(> <) to help him achieve world domination.
I always thought the etch-a-sketch pre-dated both concepts. It doesn't use a mouse, but it does use rotating knobs to control the graphical display with a "cursor".
All progress is made from bits and pieces of previous experience which lead up to current progress. That's why there's never any giant leaps, that's why we didn't have some guy 10 years ago miraculously come up with a 3ghz processor. It's why we didn't have rock and roll in the 1600s. All past innovation leads up to current achievements.
Pointing fingers and complaining about who's copying who is not only non-productive but it is the same mindset which leads to all this IP mess that we're currently in.
So to you Mr.Jobs, get off your high horse. They didn't copy the wheel just because your latest car has one. It took that wheel to get you there, do not disrespect that wheel.
I'm not trying to defend microsoft or apple. I hate everything equally.
If you don't want someone to copy something, don't give it to anyone.
And I hear with Tiger, you'll be able to format a floppy disc, and browse the web, at the same time!
Does anyone else rememember when Apple used a similar phrase in their advertising, long after Windows had pre-emtive multitasking? My guess is: probably not.
This calls for a completely off topic but intelligent thread to be started. How about this one:
Casemodded mac mini doubles it's disk performance
This guy case modded his mac mini putting into an old centris pizza-box. The faster disks and CD boosted performance 20% to 70% on AV things like DVD-copy and CD-to-AIFF and file copying. Overall Xbench-disk gives the set up a 2x performance enhancement.
so the new Official discussion topics are:
1) wow cool retro case mod for $10
2) Did apple cripple the mini just to make it cool?
And is that bad really. After all it is quiet and welcome in the living room something many people would pay a LOT for. Performance is not all.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I don't think it's the user base that gives apple the advantage of releasing more often, but rather the control of the hardware. Apple has complete control of the hardware while Microsoft has only control of their OS.
"Redmond, start your photocopiers" [coral]
The only solution to such rampant disregard for originality is obvious: we need stronger intellectual property laws and more protection for software patents. Obviously, the current laws provide no incentive for Microsoft to innovate at all, and therefore we must protect Apple's ideas and creations by giving them a guaranteed mononpoly for a limited time - perhaps as long as 70 years - to force competitors to develop new and alterantive solutions.
/sarcasm tag.
Oh, I almost forgot to close my
Even more telling is that Windows XP went on sale three years ago, while the next version of Mac OS X, Tiger, will not go on sale until later this year.
The arguement that their next Operating System update is coming out first, is not relevent as to who is copying what from who. They've both had dozens of OSes released in the last twenty years, so the release schedule of the next few seems completely beside the point.
--
RumorsDaily
what the hell does that mean? the software has to be complete if your distro is 100 copies or 300,000,000,000. the magic of software or music is that once the project is done you just have to distribute it. the only difference in the end is that the company selling more copies will make more money.
as pointed out Apple last had a major release about a year and a half ago. they also have said they are slowing down the release schedule for full version.
Isn't Apple Microsoft's market research department?
Deleted
Ah, c'mon. And the Wright brothers stole the idea of wings from nature, and Edison stole the idea of light from generations of candlemakers, and Ford stole the idea of the assembly line from packinghouses in Chicago...
In almost all innovation, the genius isn't in the product or process itself. It's in the application of innovation to do things right. And it's on this count, the most important in my opinion, that the Wright brothers, Edison, Ford--and, yes, Apple--are genuinely innovative.
didn't apple steal the whole idea of the graphical interface and the mouse from xerox?
No, Apple licensed it from Xerox. So did Microsoft, for that matter.
Indeed, like how Microsoft stole the two-button mouse from Apple!
While MS has traditionally done a lousy job quality control, you have to be a little fair, it's a lot easier to support a small set of hardware that you designed yourself than it is to try to keep up with thousands of diffferent manufacturers.
(You cannot even post without being anonymous, shows you stand by your comment) . Why is this falsehood still presented as fact? Apple licensed the GUI from Xerox but MS copied their desktop metaphor from Apple. How many times does it need repeating until the trolls and the uninformed shut the fuck up and bring different points to the table?
Jonathanjk.com
As all the other people replied, Apple paid to use ideas that Xerox did not want to use themselves. +5 insightful is a joke.
That has to be it, a reasonable explanation. Not like it is related to Apples more modular design allowing them to make incremental changes in a safe way, not needing to rebuild the whole OS each time.
You are not serious stating that userbase has any effect on development time? How are that suppose to work? In what way does number of customers affect development time?
Existence is debatable. Anything is debatable if one uses the false equivalence fallacy. Just because an opposing point of view can be constructed, ie vs global warming consensus, vs population growth limitation, vs reduction of oil consumption, doesn't mean the opposing view is worth debating. PR firms and Bushites use that technique constantly, and the new networks have become useless because of that false equivalence fallacy. Existence of opposing view does not equate with need to debate.
It is the way of the world. iBrowse for the Amiga had tabbed browsing YEARS before anyone else but everyone thinks Mozilla/Firefox/whomever was the first.
Everyone copies everyone else to a degree but will so what? Does MS copy Apple? Then those who run Windows get the benefit of a good idea. So Apple copies MS? Now the Mac users benefit.
Let them deal with it. I run what I think meets my needs the best. Everyone should.
qz
If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today...The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors.
Well, Microsoft also has a lot more resources than Apple. The advancements we're seeing on OS X are a direct result of the decisions made and the work done early on to make the OS easy to develop. Jobs has always understood the value of this. The early Mac toolbox, the NextStep API's/ Cocoa, WebObjects, now the Core functionalities - all these are designed to make it easier to develop for the platform. This has been a must for getting new developers to build apps for a niche market. With OS X, the same principle is applied to the OS itself, making it easier to pull out one component and make improvements without messing with everything else. It allows a small team to quickly and efficiently add improvements and increase performance. My own opinion is that the development of OS X is just now ramping up. Now that the Core components are complete, the groundwork for future funtionality has been laid, a lot of resources are now freed up to work on that functionality.
Apparently you don't develop software. Developing a specific product takes the same amount of time for 1 client as it does for 1000 clients.
This is the attractive part of being a software company, it costs the same to develop for 1 as it does for Many. Your fixed costs may be high initially but as you get more clients your costs approach a negligable amount.
Build what customers need and want and you'll do well. Tell the customers what they need or want and your in trouble.
I wouldn't say that was the real problem. Microsoft's real problem is that they are making a major architectural change to the OS in the midst of changing requirements. Since Longhorn was first started, MS has had to revise it significantly to be more secure as spyware and viruses have become huge problems for their customers. Also Linux and OS X have been taking away their customers citing both security and other features as reasons. So MS has had to add more features to compete with them. Any time you are developing new software, scope creep can kill or significantly delay release.
Apple has had a different strategy that has worked for them. They made a fundamental architectural change when they launched OS X. They add significant new features with every release but the architecture is still the same.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
While I understand Jobs' compliants and squabbling he has to keep on pushing. What he has been able to accomplish with Apple is remarkable. Steve Jobs has the foresight to move ahead and come out with new innovative products. In just about every market you're going to have somebody nipping at your heals to try to beat you to the punch. It just so happens the market leader is stealing from the secondary leader this time.
Microsoft has their own set of problems to worry about and I think both operating systems have their own segments in the world today. Really though as of lately I think a lot of people are switching to a Mac. I have friends who have been Windows fans who are fed up with the licensing, security etc etc and have decided to move to the MacOS.
Moreover, I see the problem being were each OS fits into the world. The MacOS always seems to stay with the education systems, graphic arts people, designers, editing and hardcore Mac addicts; while Windows hits up everybody else.
Apple needs to rev up it's marketing and start hitting other users. Eg. Corporate users
I say we just grow up, be adults and die.
We all know Apple invented the TabletPC, Media Center PC, PocketPC, XBox, ...
Okay, how about these? eMate (1997), MacTV (1993), Newton (1993), Pippin (1995)
When they're talking about search, they're talking about Spotlight, which is metadata search. Locate is simple path search. Granted, find has some metadata capabilities, but nothing that compares to Spotlight.
Regarding scripting, Automator is a GUI front end to AppleScript that allows one to represent a script as a number of steps intead of actually writing the script.
The others you mentioned are pretty much right, though.
I know, tell me about it. I heard, this one guy, he's been copying a 17 meg file... SINCE 1998!!!
Plus with each new version, the development time is getting longer by their own admission.
Jonathanjk.com
Not to mention that MS has WAAAY more developers working on windows than Apple does working on OS X.
TabletPC/PocketPC = Newton
Media Center PC = MythTV (one of many)
Xbox = Atari/Ninteno/Sega/Sony/Are you actually serious?!
Now, I'm going to stand back and wait for people to respond who don't realise I'm being sarcastic. They'll read the first sentence and never get down to here...
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
That was MS's choice however. They could of stayed a software company making apps for the mac or create an OS to run on varying hardware.
Jonathanjk.com
Apple haven't "won" since 1986, I don't think he's really in a position to comment.
My 3D Texturing Skinning work (under construction)
We all know Apple invented the ... Media Center PC, PocketPC, XBox, ...
Yeah, they're called Mac TV, Newton, and Pippin.
-Bb
there was an Apple console years ago, it was called Pippin.
Jonathanjk.com
I'm no Microsofty. But this is playing the "OS warfare" card just a little too hard don't you think?
-cvst
Those of us not born yesterday remember Bill Gates vaporware announcement of "Windows" soon after the original Mac came out. The first usable version of Windows was version 3.1 released in 1993, nine years after the original Mac OS. Windows was a shameless imitation of the Mac OS (both copied Xerox OS). MicroSoft had a year headstart in working with the MacOS because it wrot important Apps like Multiplan.
Which is why the apple market has very little to do with the Windows market. You can't run Windows on the apple hardware (in general) and you can't run OSX on generic PC hardware. So the operating systems have eerilly similar features. Microsoft isn't threatening Apple's marketshare. If you've got apple, you know if you like it, and chances are slim you'll switch back based soley on the reason Microsoft comes out with new features. And vice vera. I know I won't switch to Apple just because their instant messanging software is new and improved. Completely different markets. Its almost the difference between Nissan the Carmaker and Nissan.com
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
TabletPC
Newton ...
Media Center PC
Except for TV, any Mac with iLife ... and there was an Mac with a TV tuner built in ...
Pocket PC
Newton again ...
XBox
Pippin ...
To mention nothing of Palm, ReplayTV/Tivo, Nintendo, and so on. Not one of these "innovations" from MS is truly innovative. Perhaps the only innovative item above is the Newton, and Alan Kay had the idea with his Dynabook first.
Copying is usually how progress happens. Even the most innovative product is build upon prior ideas.
SteveM
Agreed. It apparently okay to copy if you are going to release the product for free.
It's like saying it is okay to cheat as long as you also share your answers with everyone else.
the F/OSS projects led the way, but before they can patent something
Someone needs a zealotry reality check. Yes, there have been open source innovations, just like there have been commercial innovations. Seriously, look at the default x setup on a lot of the different linux distros, notice anything? Mayhaps a start menu? In order to make Linux more usable, a lot of things were "borrowed" off windows. How about the sheer number of "OSS clone of X commerical software" free packages there are out there? How about expose from Apple. I see the F/OSS people are salivating over trying to copy that.
You seriously need a reality check...god I love zealots.
Monstar L
Apple is #1 in the HD-based mp3 player market and fast becoming #1 in the flash-based mp3 player market in the US. (They're #1 in Japan and I suspect many other countries too.) They are also #1 in the online mp3 sales market worldwide.
So . . . would you care to rephrase that, laddie?
Then how do you explain this quote from The New York Times?:
"In the suit, filed last Thursday, Xerox accused Apple of unlawfully using, in two of its computers, copyrighted Xerox software that controls desktop computers. Xerox also argues that Apple has undermined Xerox's ability to license its own software widely by suing two other companies marketing similar software."
The suit was eventually thrown out and perhaps Apple bought a license later, but it's clear that Xerox believed their interface had been stolen.
By the way, in those days it was often assumed that copyright covered not only source code, but "look and feel" as well.
Licensing is irrelevant, Apple didn't come up with the idea, which is the the essence of what Steve is arguing; that Apple creates and Microsoft copies. Uh-uh, Xerox created, Apple & Microsoft copied.
"Hello, Pot? It's kettle. Guess what. You're black!"
Anonymous Cowards generally receive no replies because you're a coward and I'm a bitch
http://tinyurl.com/9r62k/
That is a link to the 10.4 initial setup video...
This "look and feel" theory that Xerox tried to use on Apple was exactly the same theory that Apple used to sue MS.
Apple didn't come up with the idea, which is the spirit of what Steve is arguing; that Apple creates and Microsoft just copies. Xerox did the creating. I'm sure that pisses off you apple zealots to no end but tough noodles:)
Is this more of a result of Tiger being first to market? Most of those things listed have already been in both OS's for a long time, save for 64-bit support. Head start or not, there's still a significant cost to change platforms between Microsoft and Apple and I'm not just talking about the often-complained-about price of Apple systems. There's learning curves to deal with, support when things go wrong (Yes, I know it's hard news to take, OS X isn't perfect) and more.
I'm interested in seeing what Microsoft ends up with after the time spent on Longhorn. Microsoft touted Longhorn to be the biggest jump in operability since Windows 95. Nobody can deny that Longhorn will be a bigger jump than Tiger will be to Apple fanboys. I just hope Apple fanboys will get off the "Microsoft is copying us" chip on their shoulder and interpret whatever they feel Microsoft copies from them as endorsements for their first decisions.
Seriously, someone wrote "64 bit support"? Is that legit? So, innovation is supporting the new hardware? That's absurd. So, is Apple copying Dell by offering compatibility with the latest video card or whatever?
Stoooooopid.
Most of these other things are built into an average Linux distro. Additionally, if you buy a Dell, many of them are just as present, as OEM addons.
Look, I'm sure Microsoft *is* copying Apple where they can. They always have, for my entire life. But the list of crap they are moaning about is ridiculous.
Its the knee-jerk reaction to something which is repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated over and over again. I'm tired of reading it in EVERY story concerning GUI's or Apple in general. Its posted like its new information and has never been discussed before. At least get my motives right.
Jonathanjk.com
Present day: "We want better security in Windows! Why can't it have something like UNIX's security model?"
10 years later: "Those bastards! They copied/snarfed/stole the UNIX security model!"
This is probably what will happen too. People will scream for something to be added to/changed in windows, and then Microsoft will get bad mouthed for implementing it.
I have no sympathy for Steve Jobs, or people who agree with his baseless argument. Lest we forget, the *base* of the *entire* OS X operating system is a BSD core, something Apple didn't invent or innovate in to existance.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
You need a reality check if you think the start menu is there to make something "more usable". It is there to make transition from Windows easier, nothing more, nothing less.
Linux is not Windows
While it's not Embedding in the usual sense fo the word, it basically is a proof how the mac mini formfactor encourages embedding. A previous Slashdot story referred to IBM's paper on the uses of the Mac Mini as both an embedded device and as it's own development platform. This story shows how the form factor slides easily into a modest 2U industrial model suited for rack mount width or as a kiosk. One could easily treat these like OEM parts.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Plus with each new version, the development time is getting longer
The release interval is getting longer because people resent the frequent need for upgrades... Apple does provide people with the tools needed to write software that's portable to previous versions, but there's an awful lot of developers who don't bother to try. Or even to understand the API: there's one program I ran into that depended on Panther only because the developer called out to PHP to fetch a web page instead of using the existing Cocoa frameworks.
Although this comment would have been taken with much less salt with the release of win3.1 (where the only real change is the name from Trash Can to Recyle Bin) I still find myself agreeing with Mr. Jobs.
Corporate America is all becoming the same flavor as reality television
(From the simpsons) "And by created the show I mean: saw on Dutch television and tweaked the title."
Don't you just love technology / want to smear it all over your body
I agree on what you say, but I have to nitpick your first sentence about people feeling the need to upgrade frequently. This is more of an opinion on them. Its kinda silly when there are still OS9 users or even win95 users out there, nobody forces them to upgrade. I'm also under the impression that you are a developer yourself. Just so we are not confused, I'm talking about the typical home user.
Jonathanjk.com
No, the difference is tying the search database into the file functions, so the metadata database is updated *instantly* every time you save, create, or move a file. That, and making metadata/search APIs available to developers, so they can seamlessly export metadata or access live search results.
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
I'm not sure why Apple often gets the wrath on SlashDot from the Linux community. My only explanation is that Linux users are more often than not also Windows users. They dual boot. They have other PCs laying around running Windows. Why not use MacOS X and be able to run mainstream apps and have a unix core without dual booting? Why not run Yellow Dog Linux and truly thumb your nose at the MS/Intel duopoly? Apple is is the same boat as Linux. Trying to tell the world that they have a viable OS platform other than Windows. Apple is succeeding and putting a unix machine on millions of desktops. Be Happy!
This looks better to me. But gnome always get things mess.
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
I'm perfectly happy with Linux over here in the quiet corner... I'm just putting the finishing touches to this nice Enlightenment 17 I've installed... hmmm very nice...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
And didn't they establish then, that the whole damn lot of them "stole" the idea from Xerox.
The Apple GUI was derived from Xerox's original idea and by some of the Xerox team who defected. Meanwhile, we got GSX/GEM when yet another team member broke away from Xerox, and if memory serves Apple did battle with Gem over IP issues.
It could be argued (I stand to be corrected), that Windows was the only GUI not led by, or written by someone from Xerox...
Incidentally, Jobs started his "IT" career selling Wozniak's blue boxes designed to allow free lobg distance phone calls...
Here endeth the history lesson...
EVERY industry has people copying off of one another. Why do you think cars and TVs and homes look so similure? Did you really think that it was just a common logical progression? Please. This isn't news. This is another lame attempt to bash MS and nothing more. Frankly it's getting pretty old.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Microsoft just takes longer to get the product out the door, they have to support heterogeneous machines and work with their bloated, bug-ridden codebase, it takes them a little longer than Apple who starts with OSS and then does whatever they can to slap the patented Mac GUI on it so that it looks & acts like the macos of old.
There was an implicit quid-pro-quo between Apple and Xerox. Xerox got to invest (pre-IPO) in Apple in exchange for the PARC tours and demos.
Read my previous post here for more info. The link in that post has since died, but there's more info on the deal here. Search for the text "open the kimono" on that page and start reading from the paragraph above it.
~Philly
It does affect development time if you publish a list of developer phone numbers...
Linux is not Windows
Microsoft may be copying Apple, but what does it matter? As long as you sell more units then you would have otherwise, it basically makes it the right plan.
Does anyone really think that a company that eveyone beleives to use uncompetitive monopolistic tactics would balk at the shame of copying a competitor?
END COMMUNICATION
Look who the audience is, its not the geeks, its the shareholders or wanabee ones. He wants his stock to rise as its been flat recently.
Guess all those pension funds are exiting faster than finding new suckers.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
bbbuuurrrrnnnn
This comment was directed to a shareholder. This is nothing more than statements to fuel those backing Apple. Jobs wasn't complaining at all in his comments, in fact, he was boasting about Apples progress in direct comparison to M$... Good for him, I seem to recall Bill doing the same in the past. On another note. The creation and evolution (or copying if you feel this way) of different company innovations does nothing more than benefit consumers.
More developers frequently doesn't make a better product (as the MS example reinforces). Frequently a small team with good direction and planning can achieve significant goals that larger teams cannot because there are too many bullshit meetings, updates to flow charts and tracking mechanisims for managers, and overall too many fucking people with their hands in the mix as to features, etc... (frequently excluding end-users).
I like parts of the extreme programming methodology but only for demos. For actual products you can work out a lot of errors by giving users a quick product and reimplementing with the new found knowledge of what worked and what didn't in the first itteration. Constantly updating and modifying a finished code base tends to be a shitty way to give customers/clients a good product.
Version 2.0 of any product should be a complete rewrite in my opinion. Hell, if you documented at all the additional features in the 1.0 version you can usually do a significantly better job with a better idea of the scope of what the project will be the second time around. Not to mention you have all the logic already programmed which from my perspective is about 90% of a project (of course leaving out the other 90%).
The companies I compete against in my field (just got another account after demoing against them in the same week) are so stuck with their piece of shit legacy code that they cannot see the advantage in just reimplementing their product. We've done essentially that in about 5 months (of crazy hours working) but we have a clean code base that was well planned and doesn't have any legacy code that keeps our customers from getting all the services/features in our product they need.
Just my thoughts on why a clean start is sometimes better than trying to take a piece of shit and make it into a hamburger.
Again, you get my motives wrong, I'm not angry. But now you belittle me and my comments, showing that you are not really interested in staying on topic. Small facts are just as important in this world as big ones, they are needed, keeping them known should prevent little problems like we have here which then turn into bigger problems. Btw, this fact has historical significance in the computing world, it shouldn't be allowed to taken over by trolls and the ignorant.
To be fair as well, it was microsoft who was responsible for giving us the computing world we have today. They were responsible for the emerging x86 platform being the standard where developers could write for loads of hardware but for one OS. That was a great thing back then
However, a lot of people would say apple created the computer environment we have today, which we know is false, they were responsible for the personal computer yes and that is it. Its another small fact and something which I'm interested in telling others if people are wrong about a particular subject. Telling the world isn't my goal, there are other people to preach to the ignorant masses. The point is, i'm not biased and I believe in the truth more than anything, if thats a bad thing then go fuck yourself and tell the world about what you deem is interesting. Plus I'm as calm as a hinda cow telling you this, so don't let the dramatic use of the F word throw you off when writing your reply.
Jonathanjk.com
Yup, pocketPC is a clone of the Newton 'cause there were no other PDA's before then... Palm didn't exist, simplier fixed function units didn't exist prior to palm, hell, you wanna get old school, remember pocket speed dialers?
HOw can you say that the Apple dock "Doesn't work"? That's just might be the worst *attempted* flame towards Apple computers. You compare it to the freaking task bar in windows...? come on have you used OSX for even one day? I'm still confused - what about the docks does NOT work?
He is sharp. Notice how he picked right up on that. The man is good.
Insert witty sig here.
Info Display Panel: = karamba/gdesklets
who is copying who
Bashing the current pope for being the member of Hitlerjugend in his time (which was complementary btw and he risked a death sentence to still quit) would be similar to bashing people in the USA for getting "education" in primary schools 80 years from now on (in the sense of being complimentary, not that it resembles 1930's german education).
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
The pissing about licensing is arguing semantics to be contrary bullshit. Both Apple and Microsoft licensed from Xerox. Oh, why do I bother? Keep snorting those lines off of Steves butt crack if you wish.
Oh, I almost forgot to close my /sarcasm tag.
...
That would suck. Then the whole rest of this page would be sarcastic too
Yeah, close call.
The Dock and the Taskbar serve very similar functions and Windows has had the taskbar since Windows 95, ergo Apple copied Windows and did not do a very good job of it. From a UI standpoint the Dock is a mess. Tog and ArsTechnica have covered the blunder that is the Dock in full detail, reference them at your leisure. And yes, I have used OSX, I like it a lot, I just refuse to be affected by the Reality Distortion Field Jobs eminates.
Because the difference between the CPUs, it is hard to simulate PowerPC on PC infrastructure.
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
... some blind kids did. John Draper (Captain Crunch) shared this design with Woz. Woz made boxes to sell to students to get money for building computers.....
the "innovation" started waaaaaay back.
Just as long as it makes the computing environment better, I'm not sure it really matters.
That was a funny post, you truly gave me laugh with that one. For your information, MS licensed off Apple and not Xerox btw.
Jonathanjk.com
There are plenty of things Apple has "copied" from various OSes including Windows. How about the rumored two-button mouse Apple is working on--an independent innovation? Anybody remember the piss-poor supposed multi-tasking of OS9 and earlier? When decent multitasking finally appeared in OSX via its BSD base, all of a sudden many Mac folks who thought they actually had decent multi-tasking earlier on finally realized what it actually was. Here's a kicker--let's develop a tiny music player that doesn't have room for buttons nor an LCD screen, and we'll give it "shuffle" ability to play the songs in random order. Holy cow, Batman, similar "shuffle" or "random mix" ability has been present since the earliest CD players... Just because Apple comes out with a product does not mean it is innovative. Steve Jobs can declare all he wants that MS is copying Apple, but again, Apple has done plenty of copying itself.
imagine a world with one OS vendor and it being a closed system at that. we'd all be discussing the latest app written in basic and lamenting the lack of any storage larger than a 90 minute cassette tape.
i for one like the competition and don't give a rat's ass as to who put put in a supercharger or added spinners first. just look at all the mana drifting our way and at prices that a single vendor would never allow.
the 'stuff' engine is driven by competition, not only for the $ but ego as well.
so, rather than upsetting oneself over hats dejour, be creative. fan the flames of ego amongst these corporate size 12 skulls and even more cargo will descend from the heavens.
Sample material:
Hey SJ, have you heard BG's gonna bundle a child safe orgasmatron with portholes 2010?
Hey BG, have you heard the newest Mac is gonna be a child safe ROBOT that can cook, make beds, mow lawns, suckle your children, and has looks and other 'features' that will have the neighbors stacking orgasmatrons for a bonfire come next full moon.
The Apple II display system was designed by Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak. Apple was granted patents for the technology, since expired. When Microsoft introduced its ClearType technology, it was presented as a new invention. It is unclear whether Microsoft accidentally and independently rediscovered subpixel rendering, or whether they were aware of its roots.
In May 2001, Microsoft received patents for some of ClearType. However, some people, for example Steve Gibson, suggest that the patent would not be enforceable, due to the existence of prior art, from Apple and other companies that explored and optimized subpixel rendering. Despite this, Microsoft runs an IP licensing program for ClearType, which was started in December, 2003. It is unclear if Apple has licensed Microsoft's ClearType patents, but according to John Kheit, they may hold rights to them as part of the cross-licensing and investment agreement in 1997.
Despite the apologists claims, it's not that innovation doesn't occur in a vacuum, but that MS consistently claims these innovations as their own 'sui generis' inventions.
MS product development is like a boy band record producer, trying to synthesize something that approximates the real experience--it may have drums and guitar and bass, but it just don't rock!
499 == 1000+ ?
nice math skills buddy.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I think it should be emphasized that this statement was made a a stock holders meeting, as the representative Jobs needs to sound proactive and "on the ball" while I think MS does have the Apple photocopiers out, remember Steve was saying this in response and to reassure share holders that Apple is ahead of the curve.
I think the biggest failure of the Dock is it's dynamic resizing. Minimizing and maximizing or opening applications will cause the Dock and the items on the dock to change their position. I subconciously remember where things are located but when they move, I constantly have to remember the new location. It's very disconcerting and it's something I wish they would change.
-Bjorn
As for his army service. Service was compulsory, deserters were shot. Not to mention the fact that his country, as poorly ideologically driven as it was, was being invaded by the time he joined and he could hardly be expected to not join, and it's not like he joined the SS or flew bombing raids over Britain or Russia. He simply shot down planes bombing his home country, a fairly understandable action even if Satan was your Fuhrer.
Personally, I feel sad for his experience and hope that I never never have to live in a situation like he endured. I couldn't possibly comprehend what it would be like to have my country filled with such horrific doctrine and have this ideology so pervasive that I would be forced to emulate it, or die a horrific death as a traitor to my country. I don't think many people other than those who lived in the Third Reich could comprehend it either.
I'm not a catholic or anything, but I think it's shameful that anyone could spread such libelous, ignorant crap about some poor dude who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you want to insult the Pope, go right ahead. But how about saying something about some of his controversial politics and his actions as a grown man. Here's a nice list.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Windows fans who are fed up with the licensing
Forgive me but it generally appears that Apple is much more extreme than MS in regards to licensing. Microsoft might have a closed mind about their software licenses but, Apple is extreme and paranoid. Granted, I think they both suck.
As for the most remarkable thing Jobs has done... I'd say its keeping Apple out of bankruptcy while still making crappy business decisions and treating his customers and fans like crap.
If Apple had some decent management (not even great, just decent) they would knock MS down to 30% market share. They have great developers and designers. They have a solid fanatical customer base. They have a reputation for good hardware. But, instead of doing something useful, they whine and sue. They put out commercials that say get an Apple, its designed to be so easy a moron can use it, basically insulting a potential customer before they chose to buy.
They did a decent job with the iPod but, they don't even understand WHY they succeeded with it. It didn't succeed because of the interface or its capabilities. It succeeded because it looked good and was expensive (but, not too expensive). It became what the kids now call bling bling.
People don't want to buy something thats marketed as *easy to use*. Because if they do, they will worry that their friends will see it and think, "oh, he's not smart enough for the other brand". Look at tools and hardware, the best selling products are labeled "professional", "contractor grade". If you market a computer as "for Professionals only" or "Expert System" people will line up to buy, especially when they aren't really at that level. They just want people to think they are. Look at the Linux phenomena. More people *use* linux than have installed it, because they think it makes them look smart.
So, if Apple really wants a big market they should STOP telling people how easy their computer is. Let people find out. They should focus on the professionals who use the system. Make it have a "professional" conotation. Forget "ease of use". If yahoo's buy the computer because of image, and then find it easy to use, they'll become a big supporter because they will feel *smart* (hey look, I use a professional system).
The other obvious problem with their marketing is mixing "ease of use" with a bigger price tag.
If you go to Sears and look at drills, you expect the easier to use ones to cost less. You expect the expert quality one to be more expensive.
So, Apple in their wisdom says look, "its easy". The consumer hears "toy", then they see a big price tag. Then they see the computer they use at work and a small price tag. Big surprise what comes next.
Apple should say, its the best (not easiest to use), and its used by professionals (and point some out), then follow this with that the corporate desktop was chosen by PHB's (their boss is a PHB), to be used by morons (what their bosses think of them). This makes a higher price into a selling point. "Of course it costs more, its for professionals". They'll look down upon their windows friends, "Have you seen Mary Janes computer? Windows? She must have bought that at the dollar store. hahaha".
They could just get a mantra in peoples heads "Big dumb corporations use X, dumb people use X. Professionals use Y. Smart people use Y."
Lets face it, real professionals look at what is really the best and ignore marketing, thus use Linux. The non-conformist wannabees and the unskilled professional wannabees will pick a non-mainstream computer thats easy to use (currently an Apple). The rest (~90%) of the population just want to feel good about themselves.
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
that is a cop out answer. dynamic resizing may not be 100% fitt's law certified, but is does not make it broken, unless you are a fucking idiot.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Writing this from a powerbook and I completely agree re: dock. It's a PITA. A pretty, nice gfxed, PITA. Problems--if you miss clicking, you can easily drag, and remove things from the dock. If a new program starts or something while you're trying to click, you can easily click on the wrong icon. Thanks to the magically expanding/shrinking dock, you never know exactly WHERE the trashcan is, where your programs are etc. no muscle memory.
I DO like the bouncing feedback, and expose is far and away the best feature of OSX imho, but I hate the dock.
umm... NeXt had a dock in 1986.... so what the fuck are you talking about again?
and the taskbar is a mess as well... ok, so apple did copy the fucked upness I guess.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Agreed. It apparently okay to copy if you are going to release the product for free.
It's like saying it is okay to cheat as long as you also share your answers with everyone else.
No, I think a better analogy would be that it's okay to cheat as long as the test isn't for credit. In this case "credit" would represent "money."
maybe they could replace the running apps with a tasks applet that has a list of the apps that are running.
windows suffers from the same problem.. the task buttons constantly move around. there is no good way to show running tasks... it all just sucks.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Probably true. Thousands manufacture's chisel design in circuit, Director Of Technology has no way to track these countless design pattern. Major problem is no way of Searching, that is unless MicroSoft uses APPLE spotlight.
I suggest you read Slashdot
You make me laugh, really hard, too. This is Slashdot, you know, you shouldn't say such assinine things like the Dock comes from the taskbar. Let's see a raise of hands for everyone who knows where the Dock comes from.
Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
One of the new features in Tiger is support for Access Control Lists (ACL). Microsoft have had that for how long? At least since Windows NT 4.
So, stop the press. Apple is copying Microsoft, and they are behind by more than 8 years.
My advice to Steve Jobs: "Grow up".
maybe this was a useful quote last year, but keep you peripherals and get a mini. sell your tower to a high school kid and then tell me why your still complaining about the cost. i understand the need to stay with windows due to applications, or other special needs, but cost is no longer part of the argument
So the fact that NeXTStep releases an OS with a Dock in 1990 doesn't mean anything in your chronology?
The same Steve Jobs and NeXT that Apple 'acquired' in 1997 that becomes the core and basis of OS X in 2001?
The Taskbar was Windows, but the Dock is at least 15 years old now.
GPL Deconstructed
Yup, you're right, a lil digging shows the Palm didn't predate the Newton, but it did launch at the same time.
r es /display/0-2-PDAs.htm
http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictu
The AT&T EO GO Tablet in 1991 was a fully pen operated device, including handwriting recognition. Size is larger than current PDAs, but that was done on purpose as the idea was to replace notepads.
HP also had their PDA sized MS-DOS based systems in 1991. While keyboard instead of pen operated, it was a full function PC, including add on software support in a PDA footprint.
1993 has both a Palm entry and Newton, so
Being able to copy from other people should also considered an art.
You could create something innovative or improve upon the existing technology by copying from others' work
buffering...
Microsoft is the author of OS/2. It was an outsourced project by IBM.
As Apple supporters point out Tiger is scheduled to debut first, while pointing fingers they ignore developement dates.
Many of these 'copied' features have been promised by Microsoft since Windows XP (2001), however Tiger has only been worked on since Panther(late 2003).
So, who's copying whom?
I'm not sure how you got from a Newton to a tablet PC with a straight face ... but to be honest all of the new features touted in OSX tiger seem to mere improvements (indexed search=locate,graphic hardware accelleration=directx/gdi+) to what has already existed, or copied an pasted from elsewhere (konflabulator).
Are there any actual new ideas in OSX?
Transactional NTFS
_
"Good artists copy, great artists steal."
- Steve Jobs, paraphrasing Picasso
I'm going to nitpick your nitpick, but the original license for the GUI from Xerox was way back in 1980 something, plus Apple did license the GUI to MS for windows 1.0. A loophole allowed MS to use it for future versions, something which Apple took them to court over and lost. You are talking about later events in Apples history.
Jonathanjk.com
What's more boring than a slashdot article on sundays...
so.. a toy is capable of running everything a normal user would run, compile software.. do typographical setting, and use MS Office?
you a moron who can't even argue well.. look at your statement....
I can get a toy for $499. Or spend over $1000 to get an equivalent PC
so a mini is as good as a PC that is over 1000 dollars...
BTW.. how many watts does your PC pull down? the mini pulls down 20.
have fun in your dome of superiority, idiot.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
No they're not. Longhorn is Windows NT 6. Certainly there's major upgrades to system components, but there aren't any fundamental architectural modifications going on.
Since Longhorn was first started, MS has had to revise it significantly to be more secure as spyware and viruses have become huge problems for their customers.
There's nothing in NT's architecture that needs "revising" to protect users from spyware and viruses.
Apple first stuck that into MacOS in 8.5, and it was dandy. It's Been There awhile, and reached its current incarantation with 10.3. While Windows is the obvious precursor, Apple has polished the feature and improved the hell out of it. For example, a quick one-two of the buttons will flip between the current app and the previously focused app, whereas holding the buttons down will bring up the full menu and allow you to tab through - while that menu is up, you can also mouse to the desired app.
Apple has "borrowed" a number of FEEJURS from MS, but they've improved them in the process- alt-tabe is an example.... while simultaneously ignoring a few things they SHOULD be adding - for example, when I'm in a directory, why the hell do I care how much free space I have on disk? Why can't I know the size of the directory without resorting to Get Info or a du -h on the command line? Why isn't the ability to list directories-then-files or files-then-directories at least an option (the 10.3 Finder is notoriously defficient compared to previous incarnations but STILL).
Anyway.
Apple takes a few decent ideas Microsoft either First To Markets or rips from elsewhere (OS/2, etc), polishes them, improves them, and integrates them. Microsoft takes all the pretty stuff from Apple, implements it in a fashion that proves they don't understand what makes it good in the first place, does a shit job of making it functional, and sticks everyone with it... in gui terms, a bit like the retarded younger cousin who loudly emulates the behaviour of his grown-up relatives.
Oh, and the Dock isn't a "nod" to the taskbar. It's a reimplimentation of the NeXT dock.- the taskbar itself is a Win32ized implimentation of similar docks / widget bins from CDE, OS/2, NeXT, etc. And NeXT beat Win32 to market by how many years? Apple didn't so much fail to develop a better solution as a refuse to - to my understanding, the persistance of the Dock is very much a Steve/NeXT thing... and you know what bastards people can be when they Know They're Right (regardless of rather they actually are or not). Apple users are stuck with the damned thing- most of the users I know use Quicksilver ( http://quicksilver.blacktree.com/ ) to achieve similar functionality with (GASP!) customizeability and none of the retardedness.
Cat vs. Cattle, what a choice:-).
But M$ is truly shameless:
"Most telling, Jobs said is that Tiger, the next version of Mac OS X, will go on sale later this month, while Longhorn is still more than a year away."
And I recall that at one time Tiger was more than a year away!
When o when will it end? Will the titanic stuggle between the cat and the cow leave us with nothing but an arctic hotspring surronded by Penguins?
The Dock and Taskbar are two completely different things. The Dock can be very useful depending on setup, ArsTech should stick to games. If you want a real example of a useability nightmare, try deviating the slightest bit from MS's 'One True Way' and run a hidden Taskbar in XP. Bar none the most intrusive, inefficient, infuriating notification model I've seen in any computer product, interupting and stealing focus from things I'm doing now to tell me things I don't need to know. But hey, it's a feature.
I agree. Apple just refines, repackages and up-markets ideas. They add the veneer that makes an MP3 a "hot" item. They aren't really any more innovative than many tech companies out there.
Go look at my posting history. I actually anticipated you'd jump on top of this misstatement. Simple people are so predictable.
I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
no DVD capability at all
From the Mac mini tech specs: "Optical drive Slot-loading Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)".
The Dock is a UI train wreck. It's difficult to find anything it does *right*.
The Taskbar - which certainly has its own problems, to be sure - is vastly superior.
The Mac OS X dock is a clone of the NeXTSTEP dock, which predates Windows 95.
./ a few months back.
In fact, much of Mac OS X's interface is strikingly similar to that of NeXT, as is evident from those videos that were posted to
I guess that leaves the Yugo for M$ (gratuitous dollar sign)
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
You do realise the main reason the Dock sucks so much is because they took the original from NeXT and then tried to shoehorn in the functionality of the Taskbar, right ?
Apple is winning.
.......... kris
Four words: iPod, Apple Music Store.
"I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me."
Mcd's spends all this money on research of where they will open a new mcd's. They look at traffic, average income of given area and all this other crap before deciding. And once they finally decide burger king opens up one right across the street.
or just practice your clicking accuracy...
In 1995 the processor with the highest clockrates were the ones used in the Cray-4 running at 1GHz.
;-)
But then you should also remark that Cray at that time didn't build computers but only very good airconditioners.
...innovation is rarely the idea. Innovation is creating somthing people can use. What is that commercial I keep seeing on TV. "We dont' make the X we make X better." Microsoft has made all of its money from creating a user platform that works. Not from innovating. Look at smart displays. Nothing more than extension of lots of innovations. But a very cool implementation.
Hold on a second, you're telling me MSN has an integrated tool which indexes and searches my entire desktop, including e-mail and file contents?
The product which you are describing was purely a reactionary move. Spotlight was announced and distributed in June, Microsoft bought the company on which the MSN desktop search is based in July. I sincerely doubt they were working on a pre-WinFS product before Apple demonstrated Spotlight.
Saying either "copied" the other is wrong, but certainly Microsoft is just throwing money against everything Apple (et al) does. This is a stupid way of operating, and as a consumer and a developer, I find that Microsoft's products suffer from it.
I'm sure if you look deeper you'll notice other things like core video behaving very much like Microsoft's GDI+, albeit a bit more advanced since it's a lot newer.
Bullshit. Pure bullshit. You know nothing of either of these technologies. Your other claims are at least arguable, but this is not. It would even be fair to say that Avalon (in Longhorn) is more advanced than Apple's display tech, but comparing GDI+ to Quartz+CoreImage is a joke.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
I just finished reading all the damn comments at +2 and above, and Slashdot's users are still looking like hypocritical asses. Myself included.
Apple's accepted because they used BSD in OS X, that they were using F/OSS. Now people are complaining that Apple's claiming they invented/innovated it. That they're just riding the F/OSS wave.
Make up your damn minds!
Linux is just an OS, Windows is just an OS, OS X is just an OS, Solaris is just an OS, Plan 9 is just an OS, etc.
Tiger will be out in 5 days, Longhorn will be out in a year. Review Tiger NOW, review Longhorn THEN, and compare them when they're both out. Isn't that simple?
Can't the community just objectively go over the new, or NOT new, features of each OS and evaluate without going into this fucking OS evangelism?
Answer: Apparently not.
I'll now get off my soap box and let the trolling continue. Thank you.
Elmo knows where you live!
Last time I checked, Konfabulator launched a new vm for every widget, which causes a significant reduction in perfomance. So while the idea may be similar, Dashboard is a far superior implementation. And Apple has implemented utilities on the desktop for a long time; to me Dashboard looks like a better implementation of the idea behind the Control Strip from OS 8/9.
(tig)
Ignorance and prejudice and fear
Walk hand in hand
That's not the way I remember. Somehow Steve Jobs heard about Xerox new GUI. He asked Xerox corporate to allow his engineers a look at it. By this time, Xerox executives had a demo of it, but the executives simply could not grasp the significance of it being as they were totally engrossed in copier technology. Apple engineers got to see it and ask detailed questions about how it worked.
Then Apple developed the first Mac based on the ideas of the GUI that they saw at Xerox.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I don't get it, what is he saying Microsoft is copying? Just everything Apple does or what?
Get me free Opera! Just one click!
I made 5 DVD coasters on Saturday, trying to burn the Visual Studio .NET 2005 beta 2 DVD from the ISO image I downloaded from MSDN, using 3 different Windows machines. Giving up, I booted the Mac mini (with superdrive option) and ran the Mac OS X Disk Utility.
Result: A perfect disc the first time.
Chip H.
I was recently helping a friend of mine shop for a new system. He had been using PCs with Windows for the longest time, and I never heard the end of the complaints about how Windows screwed this up and how Windows screwed that up. So finally, after trying to convince him for years, I helped him buy a new Mac. He had some money to spend (he's rollin' in dough) so he bought a Mac Mini with the faster processor and all the options, and got the wireless Apple keyboard. He already had a really nice Samsung display and a Logitech wireless trackball, along with a Firewire/USB hub with plenty of ports.
When he realized that he could plug in his digital camera and his digital video camera, the hard disk almost instantly filled up with stuff. So the next day, we went back to the store and picked up a Maxtor Firewire hard drive with a 250 gig capacity. He copied tons of digital photos and videos from his other computers. I introduced him to iTunes, so he just had to import all of his MP3s from two PCs, which were bursting at the seams with MP3s. The 250 gig drive filled up quite fast, so the day after that, he bought a second one; luckily there is an "available" firewire port on the Maxtor drive, so you can "daisy chain" them.
But that's not all! With the Mac Mini, the two external drives, the USB/Firewire hub, the display, keyboard, and mouse, his desk actually looked quite clean. (He's good at organizing cables.) It's amazing how much stuff fits into small boxes nowadays. So he had to go "shopping"... Picked up a new iPod, Final Cut Studio or whatever it's called, and Adobe Creative Suite for the Mac... I swear he dropped almost four grand on stuff for this Mac in a few days. This from a guy who thought Macs suck.
He was quite amazed when he found out that Final Cut is made by Apple. He knew it was a serious program, but he never thought about who made it. When I explained that Apple makes the computers, the operating system, and software that does just about every function you can dream of, he was amazed that one company can do all of these things, and do each one of them much better than any other company out there. Specifically, he was shocked and amazed that Microsoft, with thousands of times the resources that Apple has, can't even get their operating system working properly.
We came to the conclusion that the problem facing Microsoft and many other companies is simply that Microsoft is mediocre. It's an easy problem to fall into. Microsoft is simply mediocre because the quality of their work is not important to them. They are simply greedy for money. Now they'll tell you that they care, and they're working to fix the security flaws, etc., but only because they realized that those security flaws are impacting their bottom line. As long as those flaws did not affect Microsoft in any significant way, they would have continued to ignore them.
Personally, I believe that if security flaws did not impact the sales of Microsoft software at all, Microsoft would simply ignore them and not care that your data, your identity, your finances, etc., are at risk. Because they're mediocre.
Apple, on the other hand, is a first-class company. Say what you will about their stuff being more expensive, but believe me, you get what you pay for. Someone has to get paid for making true innovations. Even though some things in their OS existed in other OSes before them (Spotlight - Query in BeOS). I think they're constantly improving.
You may want to read a Jobs quote, in the transcripts of the "Triumph of the Nerds", part 3 Halfway through the page, Jobs talks about Picasso saying this.
The whole who's copying who debate is silly. It doesn't really matter, and if competitors are incorporating the best ideas from the industry, we all win, regardless of platform. There is nothing worse than the "not invented here" syndrome. But there is something worth noting with Longhorn: there doesn't seem to be any fresh thinking. The fact that we are having this debate and not one person has defended Microsoft by pointing out a feature that is totally unique and ground breaking is telling. Very telling. Not one single feature that someone can point out as unique and innovative to Microsoft for others to copy. Not a single one. And that, I think is the problem with Microsoft and their role in the industry.
Longhorn has been in development for years. Just because Apple is releasing their latest OS earlier doesn't mean they were first with an idea. They release OS updates twice as often as MS in general. There's nothing revolutionary about either Tiger or Longhorn anyway, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.
Vote for Pedro
(Microsoft being second to last.)
The cake is a pie
Microsoft announces, then develops.
Apple develops, then announces.
Just because Microsoft issues a press release or throws a press conference and says that the next version of Windows is going to have [feature], that doesn't mean that Apple hasn't already had [feature] under development/running in a lab somewhere for a year.
For example, the search capability in Tiger known as "Spotlight." Apple applied for a patent on the technology behind Spotlight (a patent that was granted in January of this year, BTW) when OS X 10.0* was still a year and two months away from public release. Which means they started working on it in 1999 if not sooner. Years before the name "Longhorn" was ever uttered by anyone at Microsoft.
~Philly
*OS X 10.0 release date: 3/24/2001
I know this is a combination funny/troll post, but for those who have never used OS X, let me tell you--
Panther does file copies so quickly, that for smaller files I actually have to look in the destination to make sure the file is there-- it finishes the copy so quickly it doesn't even bother drawing the 'copying...' info window.
"Microsoft agreed to pay an unreleased sum of additional funds to quiet the allegations that it had stolen Apple's intellectual property in designing its Windows OS." - http://www.apple-history.com/frames/body.php?page= history§ion=h7
Some people believe 1-1=3 and for the sake of being politically correct, we should respect their differences
Arlo Rose worked at Apple during the Copland years. No doubt, Konfabulator was "inspired" by research worked on inside Apple while he was employed there. You should get a hint from the name of the product which is a misspelling of the word Confabulator http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Confabula tor or this http://www.confabulator.com/.
The ideals for Journalled HFS+ (appearing in Panther) and Spotlight largely are coming from Dominic Giampaulo (authored BFS) who on the Spotlight team at Apple.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Dude, it's debatable in every sense of the term.
There is no need to impose these peripheral - and unrelated - bitches that you have to pitch into this.
Dissolve... Resolve... Evolve...
The menu at the top makes perfect sense when it comes to good UI. All the menus come down, no matter the program. MS made theirs go on the bottom (distancing it from the mac btw on purpose) and because of that, you have menus come up from the top and the bottom.
Jonathanjk.com
It's being stuck at the very top of the screen that's the problem. Makes it arbitrarily far from the application window itself. Not an issue with the teeny screens and single task nature of the macs at the time but incredibly stupid now.
What difference does it make how many companies are selling the same crap?
If they developed useful software to bundle with the OS or made alternative OSes, you'd have a point. Dell=IBM=HP=Sony. Same crap.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Not at all. Top of the screen and top of the window are not remotely the same thing.
In an argument over who does what better specific design features/failures are certainly relevant. Why you think it's asinine is hard to understand.
Um... the menu bar is one of the best things about Mac OS (and OS X). It's quite easy to move the mouse vertically when needed (the key-command system is intuitive, and makes it so one rarely needs to use the menu bar anyhow) and having the menu items always in the same place makes quite a lot of sense, as one quickly gets used to the needed mouse-movements to use it, and one needn't worry about missing when trying to click menu items. This is coming from someone who used Windows for years, and who also uses X11 reasonably often. I'm quite familiar with menus-in-windows UIs, and they just don't come close to the menus-at-the-top UI of Mac OS/OS X.
By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
Good point, can see why the Next developers didn't want it but from personal experience, I can say I have had no trouble with it and like it as it is. Then again I am on a 12" iBook... small screen and all! :)
Jonathanjk.com
One big difference is that XP, out of the box, has no f-ing clue what to do with an ISO image. You need third party programs to do what can be done with the built in tools in OS X.
Here's a good link to a page that compares the two. http://www.xvsxp.com/burning/. Maybe the OP should have tried the Cdburn.exe utility the article mentions.
That's not to say that the OS X tools are complete and you don't need something else to supplement them (Toast?), but IMHO the built-in CD-RW/DVD support in XP really sucks! And many of the included iLife apps support burning media natively...
BApple invented the desktop metaphor as we know it today. Yes, they took the most basic elements of the GUI from Xerox, but there's a LOT of invention there. I'm not sure why you think Firewire wasn't new technology; it wasn't a new type of technology but it was certainly new. Same goes for the now-obselete Localtalk and ADB. There's a lot less which can be considered invention under your strict rules today than there was in 1984, but that's no surprise. Most of the basic elements are there now, as they weren't in 1984.
I have to nitpick your first sentence about people feeling the need to upgrade frequently.
If you want to run typical third-party software on Mac OS X, you need to upgrade. Why? because developers don't bother to use the tools apple provides to check compatibility problems and avoid them. So if you're running 10.1, very little software (commercial or not) is tracking it. 10.2, you can still use 10.2 and have a decent chance of finding software you need. But you have to look.
Please enlighten me: what peer-to-peer, hot-pluggable, high-speed peripheral bus preceeded FireWire? And please don't tell me that it's just a re-engineered, polished version of USB, because you'd be wrong.
The first time I heard the name "FireWire" was in an article in an issue of MacWEEK in '93 or '94. According to this, they started working on it even earlier than that. They just took their time and got it right, (and waited for the world to need that kind of throughput and versatility) before they put it into a computer in early 1999.
And yeah, ZeroConf is polished, existing technology. Polished, existing *Apple* technology. It's the grandson of AppleTalk networking, circa 1985.
~Philly
Apple: Microsoft is copying the features we're shipping!
Microsoft: Apple is copying the features we haven't shipped!
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
For when you absolutely, positively have to be able to multitask!
Can you patent the process of stealing underpants?
[insert lame joke here]
Um... yeah, I'm looking around. Don't see many of 'em. Can you point out a few?
I love when people on Slashdot make sweeping statements about the tone of a given discussion without even stopping to read a few examples or assuming the one or two examples they scanned briefly are representative of the whole. I don't see much in terms of defensiveness about Apple here at all. Most of what's here seems pretty level-headed.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
Are you implying that Microsoft created SMP and PMT? I don't see what point you're trying to make.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
GPU acceleration is DirectX. Longhorn UI will be driven by Direct version 10 (WGF).
You can search any document type with the right ifilter, anyone can create an ifilter for any data type. Longhorn search is actually just a fancy interface to this old (NT) indexer.
Journalling (kernel level) is different from Transctional NTFS: an Atomic set of Application file operations.
Note: NTFS has journalling already, 9 years before apple and 6 years before linux FYI.
That wouldn't just be because Apple *bought* NeXTStep for about US$400M would it? You remember, to get the OS.
Mods, if you're going to mod something "informative", please do at least a cursory google search first. Apple developed the Mac from scratch. This is well documented.
..was the innovative fast user switching. Apple was so far ahead of the game with this one. What's that you say? Windows had this one first and OSX copied that? Surely you jest.
If you saw the Panther keynote, you would've seen Jobs say something to the effect of "We know Microsoft beat us to this one, the difference is... we do it better."
...and that's all there is to it.
It's different than what you're used to, but is there really any reason why it's bad? Having one menu has some advantages:
I think your rant is actually about the lack of MDI windows (application window as parent, with several child windows). I, too, shared your anguish because this leads to a lot of clutter, but 10.3 fixed that with exposé.
Anyway, that's a silly reason to write off an entire company's products, and there's dumber mistakes Apple has made. Firing Jobs and the first iMac mouse (the round one that you had to look at to make sure you were holding it straight) are on the top of my list.
Locate is not just for Linux. It's pretty portable. I use it on my macs.
If you want to know why spotlight will be cool, try the search feature in iTunes. Once you've experienced that, you'll see why this feature will be useful when it can be applied to files.
"Let's see a raise of hands for everyone who knows where the Dock comes from. [link to jpg]"
GNUstep!
Well, it looks just like GNUstep.
'cept they changed the GNustep logo to that odd-looking thingy with the "N" in it.
I am anarch of all I survey.
How can you claim that microsoft "invented" the xbox? It's just a friggin lowend PC. If thats the case when I built my PC I invented the zbox, and z is TWO better than x , so obviously I'm more innovative all of microsoft.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
OS X is straight from 1993 NeXT Computer Corporation
In 1993 we Pee-See users were still in MS-DOS.
Your Average Joe
"shut the fuck up and bring different points to the table"
I really want to see someone accomplish both of these at once...
Actually Apple bought NeXT several years ago. I guess they must have put some of the NeXT stuff to use somehow. The guy running NeXT got some senior management job or something, too. I think he even got his start at Apple back in the early 80's.
Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
msn search is just as powerful as panther search which handles content as well.
spotlight is more powerful and more extensible.
people who claim these stupid desktop searches are even close to what winFS and Spotlight offer are like the idiots who buy their kids the knock offs of the toys that are popular.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Film at 11
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that
Francis Smit
Do they mean something like Dockapps ,GDesklets, or Superkaramba? Or perhaps gKrellm?Yeah, that is new. :)
I can't afford a sig!
So what does it mean when you have a constant 3% sales rate (that is what the figure is for) yet have computers that are used roughy twice as long as PC's?
That is called total market growth my friend. Hidden but real.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
...and also illustrates Microsofts biggest problem. In order for Microsoft to REALLY stop being mediocre, they too probably have to have the prospect of extinction looming, But with so much cash, how many years does that take? One decade? Two?
And in all that time, if Apple can simply resist also becoming mediocre, they will pretty much win by default. And so far three's little sign of that happening, as they still have very enthusiastic employees and more enthusatic users by the day.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That'd be true in OS X if these things were integrated in the way that Microsoft tends to integrate things (IE comes to mind). When Apple integrates something like these items, it's not usually tough to get rid of most of it.
Search: Integration here is probably good and useful, I'm thinking.
Scripting: Automator looks like a program - a GUI frontend to a GUI scripting system. Don't like it? Delete it. AppleScript support remains, but it's been there since 1995 and it's used by so many useful things that it'd be like removing perl from linux.
Built-in RSS support: It's integrated into the program (Safari) and not the OS. Delete Safari.app and it's gone. The WebKit library remains, but again it's used by many programs (among them my RSS reader and my instant messenger, and the stock Mail and Help apps). But it too can go if you like.
Info-Display Panel: Just set the activation key for Dashboard to nothing, and forget about it. It's not on screen until you hit that key, so unlike Longhorn's sidebar there's no chance of activating it with a sloppy mouse wave. (Also unlike Longhorn, each widget-type runs in its own process, as opposed to having third party code running inside explorer.exe, which just sounds like a recipe for instability.)
Integrated Instant Messaging/Video Chat: Don't like iChat? Delete it already. I did on my 10.3 install and the system hasn't cared that it isn't there.
64-Bit Support: Probably very integrated.
Not really that tough hey.
Hmm.. and where are the MacTV, eMate and Newton today?? Heck. Microsoft sells more XboXen than Apple sells Macs.
Who is more anal retentive? The legit poster, or the AC that keeps on Trolling?
You see, once the world starts spinning faster, you lightweight AC's will be flung into the void of space.
It's what will separate the wheat from the chafe.
It's mandatory to wash your hands before returning to the land of Dairy Queen.
I dare not, as you are Mr. Coleco Adam Zealot and I dare not tread there.
It's mandatory to wash your hands before returning to the land of Dairy Queen.
Wow, that's the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. What is particularly annoying about this is that, although Microsoft seems unable to actually ship it, Microsoft at least invests billions per year in computer science research and Microsoft research actually produce research results worth mentioning. Apple dissolved its research labs in the mid-90's and has produced almost no peer-reviewed, interesting research results since, while their marketing claims have gotten ever more inflated.
Furthermore, most of Apple's current system is copied from open source software: Mach, gcc, Safari, the command line utilities. The proprietary components, mostly the GUI and Objective-C, were bought in from the outside (NeXT) after Apple ran their own operation into the ground, and even those were based on ideas from Smalltalk.
Jobs's arrogance and distortion of the facts is just astounding. But that's nothing new: Apple tried to sue Microsoft already in the 90's and was soundly defeated when Xerox entered the lawsuit and demonstrated where all of those technologies really came from. But, I suppose, the best defense is a good offence. Still, I find Apple's lies and distortions disgusting.
But, of course, Apple's fanboys will find apologies for the company and will mod down anything that is remotely critical of the company (like this posting). I suppose, deep down, even you know I'm right and you're just afraid that your shiny boxes will disappear when people actually examine the company and its products rationally, rather than thinking of it as a status symbol and fashion item.
Search: Tiger will feature a built-in local search technology called "Spotlight" (technology built upon the search engines that Apple currently uses to search iTunes and e-mail).
Technology that Apple copied from many other commercial and research software, including commercial email programs.
Scripting:Tiger will include a front-end scripting environment known as "Automator." Longhorn will include a new scripting shell (currently in beta test) known as "Monad."
They have nothing to do with one another. With Automator, Apple is copying decades long research in visual scripting. Monad is Microsoft's hopeless attempt to improve on shell scripting with a ridiculously general and complex design. Both scripting technologies are useless, and neither is novel.
Built-in RSS support: Tiger will embed an RSS aggregator into the Safari browser. Longhorn will include an embedded RSS feature in the user interface.
And Firefox has been shipping with it built into the browser. Linux distributions have had RSS support shipping with them even longer.
Info-Display Panel: Tiger will have an information-display capability called "Dashboard.
Copied by Apple from a commercial application. Gnome and KDE have had similar technologies as well. And Apple, as usual, is trampling all over open source project names.
Integrated Instant Messaging/Video Chat: Tiger will feature a souped-up version of iChat.
Linux has been shipping with Gnome meeting, and Microsoft with Netmeeting for years.
64-Bit Support: Tiger will include extended 64-bit capabilities.
Wow, only, what, five years after Linux started shipping with 64bit support.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought that Apple shouldn't have used it.
I think that the current user interface ultimately has to do more with Steve's sense of aesthetics than with NeXT itself. Don't forget NeXT made a "NeXTCUBE" cube-shaped box, just as Apple did after Steve's return. The underlying Mach BSD Unix underlying everything is of course straight from the NeXT purchase.
The only suprise is how long Apple's been in business without Microsoft buying them. I guess that Apple must be percieved as a hardware company by the boys in redmond. Or maybe it's too big of a byte to swallow?
This lets you at the internals of the applicationas data, not the just output. This is tremendously powerful.
A sample AppleScrip might be:
Set the PlayCount of the Selected Song to 0
or
Get the second word of the fifth paragraph.
Now this are off the top examples, but notice how the dictionary has defined terms with meaning, like playcount or word or paragraph.
A traditional scripting language is a toy compared to AppleScript.
And please don't flame my AppleScript syntax, it has been years...
Then you better smoke less pot because it is affecting your memory. Apple licensed the technology for the mouse and a limited form of point-n-click from Xerox to develop the Lisa computer. They took the tech they developed from the Lisa, extended it and created the Macintosh line from that. All this time Apple paid for their licensing form Xerox, in fact Apple still pays Xerox royalties on the tech they use in the Macintosh.
*ahem* And to be fair, they do it better, cleaner, and before anyone, including OSS.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Preemptive multi-tasking? OS/X got that by going to BSD/Unix/Darwin. Windows got that when it went to Win32. If you only look at computers that "normal" people could buy they both stole that from the Amiga.
"Scripting:Tiger will include a front-end scripting environment known as "Automator." Longhorn will include a new scripting shell (currently in beta test) known as "Monad.""
Well the Amiga had Arexx many years ago.
Desktop search?? X1 or Google anyone?
Almost anything good will be copied and added to any OS that is still in active development. The key is who will do it better?
Sorry Steve but that is the way of the world. You will copy them and they will copy you.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
They can call me a troll, but I stick to my guns. Apple is a company of designers and engineers, not scientists. There's no shame in it, but they shouldn't pass themselves off as some group of great innovators for putting a computer in a small box or integrating the CPU into the monitor.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
Well, the argument could certainly be made that USB is little more than the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) with hot-swapping ability and a few other modern touches added.
ADB first appeared in 1986, and it sure seems reasonable to me that Apple could have started work on FireWire in the 80s (as claimed by one of the articles I linked to in my previous post) to be an eventual ADB replacement-- only later to realize that FireWire's capabilities meant using it for keyboards and mice would be like using a bazooka to kill a fly.
~Philly
My God! How long must this crap be perpetrated.
XEROX DID NOT INVENT THE GUI.
SRI (then the Stanford Research Institute) invented the GUI.
SRI was where Douglas Engelbart worked. SRI was where the mouse was invented. SRI also invented the GUI, as part of their NLS project.
XEROX DID NOT INVENT THE GUI.
Xerox implemented the first commercial GUI-based systems. They failed in the marketplace, largely because Xerox failed to understand and market them.
Apple made major refinements to the GUI, including the menu bar, double clicking, click-and-drag, and the icons-objects/menus-commands relationship.
In case you're still wondering, XEROX DID NOT INVENT THE GUI.
Namely these fine machines.
Not cheap, but at this level you have quality hardware.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.