Slashdot Mirror
Cyber Attacks on US Linked to Chinese Military?
wiredog writes "Security expert Bruce Schneier is reporting on a continuing effort to penetrate US government and industry computer systems that most likely stems from the Chinese military." From the Terranet article: "The attacks have been traced to the Chinese province of Guangdong, and the techniques used make it appear unlikely to come from any other source than the military, said Alan Paller, the director of the SANS Institute, an education and research organization focusing on cybersecurity."
Take, for example this story which includes the quote:
Let's not forget how important our information infrastructures are and how dependent we have been on computers for quite sometime. Let's also not forget common rules of war one of which is cutting off an enemy's supply line ASAP to reduce their cone of influence. A pre-emptive move to "test the waters" of U.S. security by China would not surprise me.
My work here is dung.
Does this sound like another blame game when something bad happens in USA? If they have already traced the source and still couldn't fend it off, I don't know what they would do next, calling President Hu?
These attacks come from someone with intense discipline. No other organization could do this if they were not a military organization
Does this rhyme with "Space exploration is both demanding and dangerous. No other nations could do this if they did not have a space shuttle".
Virtual Betting on Facebook for non-geeks.
Spooky, fun, the cyberwars have begun.
This was brought up on my local SAGE mailing list earlier. Someone brought up the good point: Aren't there an awful lot of news stories recently (heck, there've been three on /. in the past few days) villianizing China? Almost as if some large government- or media-induced program is going on to remind us how Evil they are and influence the collective consciousness to be in favor of breaking off relations with the most populous nation on Earth? (Or, to some extreme, treating them like our last Axis of Evil?)
when you shop at WalMart, you support cyber-terrorism.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
so does this mean in the coming information war they are going to use that commie OS, what is it...
Linux, I think it's called?
Bury me in mashed potatoes.
Honestly though why do many servers need to allow access from Chinese computers? Just block them at the firewall and be done with it.
Nice try, China! Your silly attempts to raise yourself to the level of the U.S. will never succeed. The U.S. is the dominant super power and always will be!
Just ask Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!
I'm a big tall mofo.
Are we?
1. How do they know that it's the Chinese Military? It could be a criminal organization.
2. Do you really think that anything really sensitive would be able to be accessed from the Internet?
Have internet controlling body recommend to people not to use Windows OS or during a BIG DOS attack all Windows OS' will be shutoff the network instantly.
I heard a story about these Chinese hackers on the radio, apparently all of the data for the Mars Polar Lander was stolen as well.
Now China is planning on landing men on the moon within 15-20 years......coincidence?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
it is possible they stole "extremely sensitive" information. I bet they raided the government's pr0n library
Chinese cyber attacks will fill your security logs, but an hour later.......
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Does this, combined with the Air Force's new mission statement, constitute an Act of War?
(well put) And don't forget Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, the Italian city-states of the Renaissance, the Mongolian Empire, Rome, Persia, Alexander's Macedonia... shall I go on?
Quantum mechanics: the dreams that stuff is made of.
No, "I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords" is classic. Or, "In Soviet Russia, Chinese military attack you" is another good on--oh, heh, that's kinda funny.
On the other hand, "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along" is just straight up pedestrian. Come on, try harder.
A B A C A B B
By throwing thousands of soldiers at a fortified coast, because noone expects you being coldhearted enough to order your soldiers into such a suicide mission?
begin fighting this the same way we won WWII?
Nuke them to hell? Get help from the Russians?
And the Americans are not doing the same to the Chinese?
I would have been shocked if this was not going on in both directions - in dozens of directions for that matter.
I'm going to stop short of crying "Dupe!" but the articles linked were posted a few months ago:
4 5245&tid=172&tid=123&tid=219
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/28/17
US calls China out on its hacking game. This comes months after China is said to be training elite teams of hackers.
Chinese government gasps and says, "WE'RE trying to hack you? You must be mistaken. We would never attack the US! It must be those pesky rogue agents and splinter cells. The ones that we're still funding and paying. China's a big country, you know? We can't really control all 12 billion of our citizens. Never mind that the hackers are using a dual OC-3 with state-of-the-art equipment so advanced that our citizens could never even afford to look at it. We're deeply sorry. Whats that? Millions of bank accounts transferred to China? We're so sorry..we'll work our hardest to get this situation resolved. Oh, and we're building a new aircraft. We call it the C-22. It kind of looks like your F-22..."
Don't tell me it isn't already happening on a small scale.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Hmh, this beeing Slashdotage I for a moment got all burned up by my latent imperialistic whorshipping latencies,,, Just ak Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!
But then I saw the light, and you where just kidding. Oh my God, you must be a terrorist!
PS You forgot Rome, among many others ;-)
If this can be proven, this is an act of war. Tell me again why China has Most Favored Nation status? WWIII seems close at hand.
For those who think that China is a big teddy bear full of love for the world, freedom, and independence of the people we have two words to remember: Tiananmen Square.
I will never forget the images of those young people being shot at, arrested, stampeded out of the square by the Chinese military.
Their government is not warm and fuzzy and has nothing to do with basic human rights. They are fellow humans, the people of China. They deserve better than that gang of thugs in power. I wish them luck in outlasting their predecessors' mistake in choosing to empower those creeps.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Sort of- only it will be much more surprising, and MUCH more coldhearted. Oh yeah, and probably will NOT come from the current US Government, because they're a bunch of wimp traitors who have already joined the other side.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Hey that worked great for both Napoleon and Hitler.
Just ask anyone involved in the free Tibet movement or any of the ISP's that host websites with the words free Tibet, they used to get massive attacks from DOS right through to serious and well planned attempts to hack these sites. Spent an entire week assisting the fending off of one of these and having to rebuild a server after the attack got through with it.
Given that the way we won WWII was by throwing vast numbers of inferior equipment and troops at a nation who was more technologically advanced and had a population that was a small fraction of our own, then yes, I think we will wait this one out. You should actually look at how we won WWII before you spout.
Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
That's probably later on your list. But it surprised me when I learned that at the height of the Egyptian empire, Ethiopia had a HUGE empire too. That's why when Moses came back and said to the Pharoh, "I bring frinds from the South." He was smart enough to make friends with them because the Ethiopians would probably have kicked their asses. The reason it surprised me is that now, I have this image of a third world country where everyone is starving to death - NOT a super power.
I find this whole thing hard to believe as China appears to want to buddy up with the rest of us. However, insofar as getting pissed at them and their whack-ass government, it should be taken into consideration that there may be disorganization and power struggles within the Chinese government and military and that, like in the game of telephone, the order from the top might be "Install Debian on all military servers" and the suspects mishearing it as "Hook up those pre-blaster patched boxes to use for the firewall." And even if President Jiang Zemin did greenlight (greenlit?) this, we should forgive him, and then persuade them to make sure Debian's on all their boxes. Forgiveness should be granted if Jiang Zemin decrees that all fifteen computers (or however many citizens can afford one) must run Debian.
By the way, what do the Chinese call their fancy dishware?
Nuke them to hell? Get help from the Russians?
Quite possibly both will be required before this is over, but in reality all I meant was "be coldhearted, creative, xenophobic, and willing to sacrifice large amounts of profit and manpower to the task".
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
At what point does prudence become paranoia?
And, why am I making my posts rhetorical questions?
And, in the aftermath you get to see how hypocritical our government (U.S.) is when it comes to authoritarian regimes. We're more than happy to open up the gates for business with China, yet we crack down on democracies (Venezuela, Haiti) who don't fit in with our Project for the New American Century.
Forget all that "Freedom is on the march" propaganda and start looking at our REAL foreign policy.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I wish they'd hack my mortgage company and reduce my principal!
Crying "Peace" - what purpose can it possibly serve to alert the media that attempts are being made? Who are the terrorists: Those attempting entry, or those publicizing the attempts? Or is some group setting up an attempt at justifying some potential action?
Peace, please.
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
Sacrifice profit? I can't even imagine how much defense contractors and other large firms must have made during WW2!
As a European I can gleefully inform you that we will be keeping logs for a lot longer than that :S
liqbase
I was really surprised by the whole energy of the place. When I went to McDonalds and they didn't have my food immediately, they said no problem we will find you and bring it to you when its ready. 2 min latter I had my fries. This particular McDonald's had around 30 registers all open. They said that they served 6000 lunches everyday -- just nuts. You won't find any fast food resturant in the US that can manage that volume and provide good service too.
The only downside was all the street vendors, which annoyed our tour guide. She said that they all had day jobs, but would often call in sick to go run side businesses to make extra money.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
Hmmm... could give new meaning to RED Hat... since they hate MS almost as much as Massachusetts.
BWHAHAHAHA! (wipes away tears)
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
It's not so much "Freedom is on the March" as "Corporate Capitalism-based Command Economy is on the March".
Once you realize that this is becoming a country by, for, and of The Management most of the rest of government policy becomes extraordinarily clear.
Given that the way we won WWII was by throwing vast numbers of inferior equipment and troops at a nation who was more technologically advanced and had a population that was a small fraction of our own, then yes, I think we will wait this one out. You should actually look at how we won WWII before you spout.
Actually, there were three Axis nations- but yes. Vast numbers of inferior equipment is exactly what I had in mind- as well as a total mobilization of our workforce to create that inferior equipment. And notice that I mentioned two enemies- and neither one will allow us to just sit back and "wait this one out". Both have *already* attacked- but require vastly different forms of warfare to defend. The Islamo-fascists we can fight the same way we fought the Germans, true. But the Chinese will require a different set of parameters. A good way to defend against the Chinese attack would be to remove all tax credits for import from companies that sell goods in the United States. A second good way would be to withdraw from the WTO and blockade our own ports. A third good way would be to *require* intelligent, statefull inspection firewalls for any fiber optic line leaving the United States, as well as for any satellite link up.
The real answer to how we won WWII was "be coldhearted, xenophobic, creative, and willing to sacrifice 120% of our GDP to the fight". Specific tactics were created to fit specific situations back then, and we could do the same now.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
It isn't the Chinese!
Everyone knows that the Chinese could shut down the U.S. military by mailing a baker's dozen fingercuffs to the Commander in Chief and the War Cabinet.
Can't push the nuke button without use of your fingers, can you?
Tons of scans and pen attempts have been coming out of the Guangdong Province for years. Funny thing is if you trace the scan back to the IP admin and etc... you can often Google the names listed as contacts and find they are linked to Chinese IW...
This is not big news IMO just a resurfacing of info that has been seen before... (FUD for new book sales maybe?)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
OBSimpsons: Tiananmen Square plaque: On this site in 1987, nothing happened.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Sorry people, but China is growing at such an 'alarming' rate that it represents a clear and present threat to the United States. China outnumbers us by approx. 4:1 and they are smart - very smart. The government is corrupt and a lot of innocent (poor) people within China are suffering as a result on a daily basis. I don't have anything against the Chinese people, but I sure do not want their government start excerting more control over our lifes and our economies. On a pure economical basis, this whole 'globalization' business is ruining small (and large) businesses all over the planet - they just cannot compete. That's the way the cookie crumbles however and we cannot turn back the clock and will have to deal with that or at least wait until the cost of living in China approaches that common in the West.
Politically, China scares the jibbers out of me and we need to be smart not to hand the reigns over to them. Things are going to get ugly as we are increasingly experiencing a raw materials and fossile fuel shortage in the coming decades.
For those who think that the US is a big teddy bear full of love for the world, freedom, and independence of the people we have two words to remember: Wako Texas.
I will never forget the images of those mothers and children being shot at, bombed and burned to death by fire shooting out of the barrels of tanks by the ATF without ever being told why their home was being attacked.
Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
Let's see, out of 1.3 billion people, there would be 130,000,000 people in the 90 percentile of intelligence. The US population is about 250 million. In other words, China could fill almost half of the US with very smart people. My point? I agree with you.
Sacrifice profit? I can't even imagine how much defense contractors and other large firms must have made during WW2!
Under 95% personal and corporate income taxes? Not very much. Profiteering was considered treason back then. And because we expended 120% of our Gross Domestic Product to win that war for the 6 years it took to do so (our buildup started before entry, of course), those taxes were continued for a decade or so afterwards to pay down governmental debt. The big winners were the middle class- the first postwar decade was by far the largest percentage expansion of the middle class ever seen in any nation throughout history.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
"I've been saying all along that China is a threat- and this is really the third front of WWIII."
"World war..." I do not think it means what you think it means.
See, when cities start getting wiped off of the face of the planet and an entire generation of young men gets decimated and then decimated again, then you get to call it a "World War III." Ask Europeans or even Chinese of the proper age group to tell you what a real world war looks like.
Very, very few people in North America have seen what a war actually looks like since the freakin' 1860's (and they had to travel to see it), which is probably why people like tossing around the word "war" without having any fucking clue what it entails ("War on Poverty," "War on Drugs," "War on Terrorism," "War on Christmas," and the silliness of calling the whole Red State vs. Blue State thing the "Second American Civil War).
Sherman said "War is Hell" and went on to aptly demonstrate that fact. This, this isn't even a hissy fit. If you have the liesure time to piss away posting on a website, it ain't war.
they probably like their fellow jackbooted chinamen alot more than they like us western roundeyed bastards, though, so go ahead and help 'em, just watch out for getting screwed in the end, 'cause there ain't gonna be any reacharound from them for *you*.
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
I have been following this for some time.
This is not the first time this story has appeared on Slashdot. The last time it did (last year, I think), it covered a person who had traced the attacks back as far as China and gave some basic information about the methods and types of attacks. Also there is some reason to think that some military systems have indeed been penetrated and such items as flight control software stolen.
My own suspicion is that you have some sort of DMZ from which these attacks are occurring. You have a number of people stationed in shifts around the clock logging into these systems (possibly remotely) and using them for the attacks. There is plenty of reason to suspect the Chinese military here. These are not defacement attempts but are pretty surgical attempts at military data theft. This means organized crime (terrorist or not) and military are your only major suspects. The military is more likely the purpetrators given not only the specific type of data being targetted but also the Chinese Gov't's general unwillingness to cooperate with an investigation.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
What's the point of calling it a blame game? They've traced a major effort to attack systems to a specific location, and are now publicly stating that it's coming from China. I'll grant you the way they worded the "no other organization could do this" part was folly, but it's completely fair to say it's coming from China if it is. The Chinese government and military should take swift action to put an end to it whether it's them or not. That's a perfectly fair assertion, and failure to act in this case is nearly as malicious as being the perpetrator.
I have always thought that our growing debt would make a good reason for our leaders to consider war. Has to be better than he made fun of my daddy.
LIVE, Love, die
While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, my firewall logs are constantly filled with hack attempts originating from our Chinese cyber-neighbors. What I'd be interested to know is whether these are concentrated attacks (most do not seem to be) or whether China's tenancy towards software piracy has become a problem for them. Would it surprise anyone if many widely-circulated, Chinese-pirated copies of Windows XP were pre-infected with trojan rootkits? In that case the botnets would be deployed from the moment the OS was installed. That being said, the responsibility ultimately lies with them either way.
Working in a DevOps shop is like playing in a band made up entirely of keytarists.
Who even cares about some little "cyberattacks"? Our annual trade deficit is pushing a trillion dollars per year. For good or bad, that's what will even out the global balance of power.
..hundreds of thousands of students, tourists, technicians and businessmen spread out all over the western world. Now, run the odds of how many of them can be persuaded or are already prepared to "fight for the homeland", especially if they have relatives back home. They don't need to be in china to have web access. You'd have to blacklist the entire net to deny them access. And that's just cyber warfare, there are a number of other options available to them for assymetrical warfare.
Actually, the last three wars we fought differently- of which we fought one to a stalemate, one we lost, and one other we won but failed to finish the job enough to avoid being back in the same place a decade later.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Bravo
wish i had mod points today
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
China is a separate front entirely- and is behind the problems with N. Korea, since they've been the biggest supporter of that government since the Korean War.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
In the 50s, 60s, and 70s, thousands of American soldiers died in an effort to stop the threat of Chinese communism. Today, China is one of our top trading "partners". What has changed? China is still one of the worst human rights violators, and routinely abuses its neighbors (Taiwan and Tibet). In trading terms, China is probably our most abusive partner. Any project done in China must also have any related side projects completed there. China also devalues their currency, further imbalancing trade.
The China situation probably pisses me off more than any single other issue. Its an issue where both parties are on the same side; the side of profit-whoring multinationals that have no problem selling out American workers and small business and buddying up to the rights-abusing monster that is the Chinese govt.
We have a record trade deficit right now: money.cnn.com so China doesn't want to fight us, we consume way too much of their produced goods.
And we don't want to fight China, American buisnesses rely way too much on Chinese goods. On top of that, China and South Asia are among the largest emerging markets in the world... The only war both sides want is a price war.
I certainly don't think there is any Nazi/Alexander the Great/Ghengis Khan expansionist ambition on any side that could lead to a world wide conflict. After Iraq, no one in the US wants to rule anything but the good ol' USA. And while there are huge issues with basic human rights, China is gradually making a shift towards a free society, which is probably the right way to go (see the former USSR, Easter Europe, and the Balkans, for the variety of problems: economic depression, civil war, etc. that emerge with even the best intentioned political upheaval).
Taiwan could end up being a sticky issue, but neither side really wants it to result in violence.
Dude, what the fuck? I think your tinfoil hat fell off while you were typing.
But seriously though.. what is the problem, and what is your solution? Who are you planning to invade, and why do you think it's necessary to do so?
You're an immobile computer, remember?
Because it make good economic sense?
I say we just upload a Romulan virus. That'll learn em.
Quack, quack.
Don't have my copy of William Gibson's novel handy, but I seem to recall that one of the objectives the AI had for the team was to steal some Chinese "ICE" out of some sort of highly secure repository.
RIGHT!!! Oh how you would whine if we actually did invade North Korea. Let's say we had invaded North Korea instead of Iraq, we would be in the exact same boat, except the whining would be to the tune of, "Why invade North Korea! Didn't Bill Clinton say that Iraq was the threat?"
"Chinese outnumbers all other languages in the world."
So? If you read the whole article, you'll notice that they point out that, funny thing is, the vast, vast majority of all Chinese speakers live in one place. China has always believed it is the center of the world and waited for everybody to come to them instead of, say, exporting themselves and their language. Unless you're actually going to China, you will get far more mileage with English, French or Spanish (i. e. the ones who did go out and export people and langauge).
In my own layman's opinion, the obsession with whatever flavor of Chinese dialect you're looking at is little more than a fad. Twenty years ago, "the" langauge for us to all go out and learn would have been Russian or Japanese, two other examples of isolated languages.
IMO, it makes more sense to run out and learn Portuguese. Brazil is closer to the US than China.
I have been worried for a long time about the apparent naivete of the U.S. government and military regarding the Chinese.
The Chinese government and military are extremely savvy so long as they are not blinded by their communist dogma. When it comes to trade, information, spying, and weapons technology, they understand the reality that those who play fair lose.
If you are a businessman, have no illusions that your papers and files are safe in your hotel room in China. There have been documented cases of government-sponsored spies following businessmen and bugging or entering their hotel rooms to scour their belongings for useful trade secrets and intellectual property.
We can see clearly that they are pursuing a strategy of mercantilism in trade, to our great disadvantage, thanks to the cluelessness of free-traders in Congress and the White House.
Who can doubt that the same issues exist with regard to sensitive military information? The Chinese sponsor students to come to the U.S. with the express goal sometimes of infiltrating research staffs and supplying tech info back to China. The same surely occurs with U.S. government and military employees, although the screening is more thorough.
In my opinion, the CHinese government would see hacking U.S. government or military sites as a requirement for successful international competition. Hopefully, the NSA and others like them are on top of the problem. I don't doubt, though, that they have gained access to lots of systems on the lower end of the confidentiality spectrum.
It needs to be impressed on people in government, military, and intelligence work, that the Chinese are playing one mean game of chess in everything they do vis-a-vis the U.S. Their sense of time spans centuries and millennia rather than decades. Any suspicious activity on their part needs to be treated with the greatest skepticism by our guys, rather than with apathy or giving them the benefit of the doubt...
There's probably been a report issued in China about the attempts by the US military to crack their networks, but it probably got filtered by the Great Firewall of China.
Yes, we understand these tags always apply: fud, dupe, typo, slashdotted, topic name
The American vision of ultra modern future: high speed trains and efficient McDonalds.
Although the number of victims aren't really comparable, I'd be more willing to compare Tiananmen Square to the Kent State massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_Massacre
Logic and people like this are the reason I abandoned "security world" (which I loved, and was there for 15 years).
No, this has nothing to do with "we need more marketing and sales - let's use some big words" (SANS is profitable org, you know). No. Not at all.
They simply have such 3l33t connections and t00lz and t3chniques which can uncover (and trace and bust) any hax0r.
This have NOTHING to do with China's economic/IT explosion and deployment of countless boxes (which can't all be secured) in short timeframe. Heaven for bouncing.
We haven't seen this before with South Korea (which had Gigabit links to everywhere when most of the world could dream about it). No.
These are military hax0rs, really. Because attacks come from China.
And SANS was first to find it out.
Oh, look at these training/course offers we have...
Ha! I actually lol'd at that.
While it's intersting you've already planned WWIII, it just seems like extremism and isolationist flamebait to me.
I didn't plan it. I'm not the one who decreased the American workforce by half in just 5 years.
We have a record trade deficit right now: money.cnn.com so China doesn't want to fight us, we consume way too much of their produced goods.
And with that trade deficit we'll be able to afford to do so exactly how long? We already can't feed our own population.
And we don't want to fight China, American buisnesses rely way too much on Chinese goods. On top of that, China and South Asia are among the largest emerging markets in the world... The only war both sides want is a price war.
Which is bad enough for the common American LABORER- for whom American businesses are already traitors in this war.
I certainly don't think there is any Nazi/Alexander the Great/Ghengis Khan expansionist ambition on any side that could lead to a world wide conflict.
Then you haven't been paying attention to what the Waltons are saying.
After Iraq, no one in the US wants to rule anything but the good ol' USA.
Which is bad enough- a Wal*Mart every three miles and no other stores at all.
And while there are huge issues with basic human rights, China is gradually making a shift towards a free society, which is probably the right way to go (see the former USSR, Easter Europe, and the Balkans, for the variety of problems: economic depression, civil war, etc. that emerge with even the best intentioned political upheaval).
Or at least they're pretending to- while they destroy jobs here and close our home retail outlets to sell their shoddy goods through traitors to America.
Taiwan could end up being a sticky issue, but neither side really wants it to result in violence.
Except for China, who has already stated that if we interfere with their next invasion they will nuke American cities.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
'nuff said.
Hey, not every Chinese person is named Ho!
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
But seriously though.. what is the problem, and what is your solution? Who are you planning to invade, and why do you think it's necessary to do so?
Different fronts require different strategies. For the Islamo-fascists, we need to just pull out, accept a 40% ration on oil products, and wait until they self-destruct, or help them along with a nuke or six. For China, we need firewalls on every data line that crosses a national border, an end to foreign investment in the United States by law, withdrawl from the WTO treaties, and finally, punishment for any business that trades with China up to and including cancelation of articles of incorporation. Oh yeah, and a naval barricade of the straights of Taiwan.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
hacked by chinese
... by the Chinese military. In an out, no key errors or fingerprints -- a story posted once again without the editors having the slightest idea it was happening. Scary as hell.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
The media has been exceedingly eager to portray China in a positive light. It's not surprising considering American and European companies all have moist panties over China.
No one has any principles. The US is willing to tolerate anything in order to get the advantage economically. And Europe is doing exactly the same thing, in fact, in some cases they're going to greater extremes, going as far as selling advanced military hardware to China.
Hell, even Taiwan, the renegade province is investing heavily in China. Taiwanese citizens are going nuts over the booming market there. Countless, some friends of mine included, if they haven't already started doing business over there are seriously considering doing so.
It's possible that by the time China becomes truly influential they may have changed their ways, but I'm not holding my breath.
The bigger danger is if the bubble bursts. The vast majority who are already living in poverty are going to be even worse off, and many in the middle class are going to lose everything they have. Needless to say everyone will start to blame the government. The leadership will have to rally the people in order to distract them from the real problem. I predict the first thing they'd do is invade Taiwan. Then we'll see some real fireworks.
I think China will lose some of its steam once nations start seriously investing in alternatives like India. Unfortunately, I think the US has lost a lot of the drive it once had. That's something China seems to have a lot of; their citizens still manage to have pride in their nation. It's certainly excessive sometimes but it also helps the country excel.
You could wish their current (and continuing) administration to have learned (well, something) from the previous administrations mistakes. To say communism is outright bad is ignorant. Its like blaming God (and I know some people do) or religions for all the bad interpretations people make of them.
And as far as human rights go I don't think the US has a leg to stand on right now. Tiananmen Square like a big FUCK YOU to the world, to divergent ideologies, etc. Guantanamo Bay or the unintentional results due to the use of white phosphorus in Falluja aren't signs of a government suddently gone wild. We've been violating basic human rights for ages, we've just done it more diplomatically.
Sorry for the ramble. I just feel like for all our best intentions in time men will find means to erode high-standing ideals for a little bit of personal gain. We want so much.
Quack, quack.
Well, this just proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are a complete idiot. China makes our inferior equipment, and if you think a nation with less than an eighth of China's population is able to throw vast numbers of troops at China then you failed kindergarden math.
Also, you seem to not realise that most of our national debt is financed by China. Do you actually think they'd fund our war against them?
Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
" Marxist Hacker 42 "
"A third good way would be to *require* intelligent, statefull inspection firewalls for any fiber optic line leaving the United States, as well as for any satellite link up."
Umm slow down there buddy.
First, your handle is Marxist hacker, so why are you pissed
at the chinese?
Second, requiring chokepoints essentially sets up government monitoring and
thus control (ala "patriot" act). Thanks but no thanks.
P.S. perhaps you should change your handle to "National Socialist Hacker" instead?
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
What are you talking about? The train wreck? You're somehow linking the U.S. to a brutal, censorship-laden dictatorship in China with a conspiracy theory? Surely you're not serious. But then again, half of the leftist slashdotters here believe the U.S. is a "dictatorship" and that we're the root of all evil and whatnot, so go ahead and mod this post "troll" :(
Given what information has been publically available on this set of attacks for the last year, it looks to me like China is doing their best to steal military technology from the US as a way of helping to even the balance of power in the world. This would also fit with the known cases of espionage in recent decades.
Lets face it. If it came to a land war in China, we would not stand a chance. Similarly if China were to invade the US (which they have little reason to), they would not stand a chance even if the technology favored them as much as it favors us today. But what China cannot do is effectively influence South-East Asia as a massive power broker without modernizing their military. The US is the dominant power in that part of the world, with Australia and China trailing distantly.
This game of global military politics is far more subtle than it appears. This hardly means war is iminnant. It just means that China is attempting to build their military up to the point that they can protect their sphere of influence (and maybe someday reunify with Taiwan).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I bet they're all running RED Hat! Ha!
Sorry, that was terrible.
Us..its all our fault. We are the ones that backed globalization. Now we must reap what we sow....
Hand over the reigns man, are you serious?
Dude, you are smoking some seriously twisted stuff if you believe that. (Or, more likely, you are reading some seriously twisted "information" sources that are feeding you some serious lies.)
Dude, chill. It's called a joke. It requires a sense of humor. You should try it someday, it's really cool.
Slashdot is amazing. If you say 2+2 is 4, someone will either take offense, or have a strong position on the subject, or both.
For the record, I'm Whitey McWhite, and I've dated and have friends with people around the world, of many colors and races. Like Martin said, the content of your character, not the color of your skin. What color are Anonymous Cowards anyway?
First, the argument that an attack is disciplined thus it must be the national military is just plain stupid -- and I frequently agree with Bruce S.
Even then, how is this not anticipated? Governments spy on each other (and their own citizens) prolificly, even their allies. We do it, they do it. European countries and the US are constantly one-upping each other in government sponsored corporate espionage. The Internet's done nothing but created a new medium. We steal corporate and military secrets from them, and they from us. Big deal.
The fact is that this means nothing. We know how to prevent this from being a problem, we do it, and we even disseminate disinformation this way.
The Iraq boondoggle aside, countries are actually very good about researching each other. There's a level of transparency between nations that is completely hidden to the average citizen. I think that everyone understands that at some level. The problem is, of course, that the public understanding of geopolitics is quite different than that of world leaders and the intelligence community. China could be an invasion threat, or on the verge of a dramatic shift to democracy and becoming our (USA) 51st state -- but, honestly, how many people are privileged enough to have access to sufficient information to make that call? Almost certainly not you.
By avoiding transparency, governments can avoid accountability to their citizens and other nations. That lack of accountability makes people easy to assuage, makes governments appear artificially effective, etc. In the US we demand little transparency because making information available puts us at risk (so the logic goes). Thus, by simply augmenting the perception of risk (nwes about terrorists, spies, etc.), people will lower their accountability demands, enabling more flexibility for things probably not in the public interest.
Of the top 100 economic powers in the word, 52 are corporations, and 48 are countries. About 1/3rd of goods transferred over a national border are goods that don't transfer ownership because they stay within a multinational corporation that is internally transferring those goods). It seems that some good geopolitical FUD can make you richer than Croesus if you're an inside player in the game.
These are called entrepreneurs. They are not dependent on a government job. They are not happy being dependent on the whim of another person to employ them. These people work to build the economy, and, through such work, their country. These people do not complain that a military base is closing and therefore the governmental gravy train is leaving.
However, the other points are correct. The trade deficiet in the US was around 70 billion in october. This is only a deficiet in products, as the foriegn loans and investments probably far ouweigh this number. Asia loans us money, then we use the money to buy their goods. We could make the goods ourselves, but we could not earn enough, or find anyone to loan us enough money, to keep our current lifestyle.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Though China is surely no friend of individual empowerment, we should keep in mind as relations become more strained that our own nation propagandizes as well - perhaps more subtly and effectively than China's.
Apropos, Slashdot h4xx0rs might want to check out the Cult of the Dead Cow's efforts to undermine Chinese censorship through groups like Hactivismo and techniques like The Six/Four System.
Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.
It's never hack from home. Now, even if the Chinese are actively trying to .gov or .mil. I'm pretty sure so called
hack us, (why not, I am sure it's not just them and I'll bet money we are doing
it too), why would they source an attack from their primary location? Even if
the "attacks" are coming from there, that doesn't mean it's the Chinese. It
could be an American or British kid who took over a box there. And I gotta
tell you, if it were me, I would bounce my traffic around the world twice
before I even took a look at a
"military trained" hackers backed by the Chinese government could and would
have far more resources and could cover their tracks better than that. If it
were me, I would have all the attacks sourced from Britian or Iserail, or some
other friendly US ally. Color me suspicious.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
STEEE-RIKE!!!
sarcasm -------->
O
-|-
|
/ \
you
From your second paragraph (the first one quoted above), it appears we've already figured out what to do to cause harm to them.
American corporations will not stand for being refused entry to a market encompassing a sixth of the world's population. This pressure began to build in the seventies and has only increased. This is the determining factor in all US/China dialogue.
illegitimii non ingravare
Given your username, I'd like to say: :-)
Red Flag GNU/Linux ... no really it is. *grin*
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
What will happen when china wants to reclaim that debt?
See everyone there is nothing to worry about... Instead of hireing US hackers to test their networks they oursourced the job to Chinese hackers.
Second china is not an iraq or vietnam. It would kick americas butt in both a ground war and a nuclear exchange. Massive losses for the chinese sure, but so what? Not like they are going to run out.
Third russia would have a fit.
Fourth India would have a fit.
Fifth non-commercial blokkade would suit the chinese just fine. Less capatalist propaganda to filter out. It is not like South Africa were the majority of the population were against the boycotted goverment.
No it is just bash the chinese time in the media, next month it will be the EU's turn.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"Did it ever occur to you that war may have changed,"
Ten thousand years of civilization and warfare, and the face of war has always remained the same: people killing people and breaking things en masse, wholesale slaughter. The means and methods may have changed, but the results, the aftermath has always been the same: smouldering cities and bloodsoaked soil. Are you so vain as to believe that humanity is somehow above all that now and things have magically changed in the past hundred months that haven't changed in the past hundred centuries?
And before you start pointing at 9/11, not even that qualifies. The Romans did far worse to Carthage and they didn't have airplanes or the Internet. Try finding something in Atlanta older than 150 years.
"and that there are people starving to death in America due to WWIII already?"
Any more than, say, the Great Depression? Even with the surge of population in the US since the 1930's, I'd still wager the raw numbers are higher from the '30's, and that was peacetime.
Again, you have zero sense of scale.
Starvation during wartime comes because international shipments of food are seized/sunk and domestic food sources are torched, blighted, salted, or otherwise eliminated by human violence, and everybody knows it. You sure as hell don't start talking about a freakin' obesity epidemic. Hell, look at postwar Japan, and that was even after we called off our submarine fleet.
And, again, this is something North America has not seen in almost 150 years. No rational person would even pretend this qualifies as a war.
Please, oh please, I beg of you!! Tell me where you get your information! I really want to know! This is not an attack on you, or anyone! I'm being nice! This isn't a troll. I just really want to know this! This isn't rhetorical! What newspapers do you read? What books? Which newsgroups do you frequent? I need to know it all!
Yeah, because Wikipedia is very accurate....
Chinese nationalists are really big into pushing ultra-pro China views on Wikipedia, and you take it as the verbatim truth. So yeah, you are a sheep too.
Monstar L
I assure you that the prosperity you saw in Hong Kong had nothing to do with it's former status as a part of the British Empire, what with all the capitalism and such.
As for the US' being a third-world country, you're immediately wrong by definition, even if you are still using outdated cold-war terminology, since the US was first-world by definition. Regardless, the US' GDP per capita (in 2004) comes in at a lowly $40,100 compared to China's $5,600. That puts China at 121st in the world, vs. 2nd for the US. Please open your ass and remove your head.
I agree with you but prefer to take a more optimistic view. Things ARE getting better in China.
;-)
At the risk of getting modded as a troll, I'm not convinced that democracy would work in a country of over 1.3 billion people. It's a very delicate infrastructure that's holding that entire country together.
The Chinese government feels that their often brutal enforcement of it's policies is preferable to the anarchy that would result from allowing the people to challenge the status quo. It's an awful thing to say but they do have a point. Any sizable civil unrest in China could collapse that very delicate infrastructure and could lead to tens of millions of people starving to death.
As China continues to prosper, hopefully one day a democracy of sorts will be established. The signs are already there. In spite of certain news stories you might hear, the govermnent IS clamping down on local corruption and IS gaining confidence in it's people's abilities to govern themselves locally - maybe even allowing the people to choose their local govenor one day?
The prosperity that comes from trading with the rest of the world is fuelling that confidence. The only thing standing in the way of these changes are the idiots who say "stop trading with China because their government is horrible".
Oh and it's OBVIOUS that they're poking around US millitary systems. The rest of the world is doing it - why not China
Just a script? or Chinese military
Just because someone knows what they are doing, does not mean they are military.
When do the military actually know what there doing.
IMHO, It just those pesky aliens having a laugh with "spooky action at a distance."
"The economies are indeed too dependant on each other."
The same was said about Britain and Germany in 1913.
That's it. It's time for someone to start a distributed computing something or other that I can donate my spare CPU cycles to and help defend my own country. Crack codes, smoke terrorists out of their caves, crunch simulations, calculate trajectories, whatever. Just sign me and my spare PII-300MHz up. Seriously.
Apparently you've never been to McDonald's in Midtown Manhattan!
http://www.worldsoccerbars.com
I second that. I grew up with a childhood of occasional drills on air raid emergency, and I thought that was pretty bad. That is pretty much the closest relating experience about war that I have, but I can imagine war gets much worse than that. I know some people who have really bitter memories of war.
I hope people are able to see that whatever Marxist Hacker says is a blatant, egregious attempt at demonizing China, possibly for somebody's political agenda. There really is nothing to see here. Please move on.
I once had a signature.
Yup. You'd have been better off with the "we knew it was a bad idea in the first place" left.
"In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running"
Scary. Our dominance after the world war 2 was largely due to the fact that we were a creditor nation.
So claiming that they butchered their own civillians is a pro China sentiment? Them playing favorites somehow makes them better?
Definitely any growing influence needs to be watched but there are "natural" forces that check anyone from rising too far. Look how scary the Japanese economy was in the 1980s -- remember movies like 'Gung Ho' that played on our fears? Here's some reasons why China will plateau before ruling the world: 1. Their main global economic value currently is cheap labor. But their standard of living is rising quickly and salaries are growing. Many, in the cities, have cars and big screen televisions. They won't be cheap for much longer -- in fact they're starting to outsource to Vietnam! 2. Their banking system is flawed, and their corporations are rife with corruption. They will experience a major economic crisis similar to the "economic flu" that hit the other Asian tiger countries. Major scandals will be unveiled, big corporations will default on loans, and the whole house of cards will fall down. 3. Political turmoil. As the social disparity increases, they will get inundated with protests and strikes like any other modern industrial country. 4. Infrastructure problems. 5. Energy and water supply problems. 6. Pollution problems. Don't mistake their transient success of five years with a prolonged dominance.
I'd like to comment on one of the trackback links from the article (http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/202) and request that fellow Linux users avoid making comments like "This just proves you should switch to Linux."
Without getting into a discussion about whether or not Linux is inherently more secure than any other platform I want to point out that if the Linux community is always loudest after news like this it will leave a bad taste in the mouths of potential new adopters.
This may be off topic but I think it's an important point to think about in regard to security in general. We (the technologically inclined) should be trying to help our community (all computer users) to be more secure without trying to force our own agenda down their throats.
Nice comedy, I hope you will get modded up for this one :D
This is the sig that says NI (again)
While I don't approve of this method of cutting corners on R&D the Chinese are doing nothing that the US hasn't done in the past and still is doing today, and not just to nations that could be a potential threat either. The USA also spies on it's own allies and that includes abusing base rights and surveillance assets, supposedly there to be used for the benefit of NATO defense, to conduct industrial espionage on other NATO nations. The US has even used these assets to commit occasional acts of economic sabotage, a famous example would be the Saudi Arab airliner deal that Boeing managed to snatch away from Airbus with Uncle Sam's help. Not that I'm complaning mind you, we Europeans are not exactly angels either and the whole Airbus mess did have two positive results. Firstly we now know that we can't even trust our friends in the USA as far as we can throw them (a lesson they are now slowly learning them selves, in reverse, so to speak) and secondly many corporations here now take communications security more seriously than the military. Judging from the way it has been chewing away at Boeing's market share Airbus certainly seems to have learned it's lesson.
The price of peace is eternal vigilance.... even your friend will stab you in the back to butter his own slice of bread.... learn the lesson, go on and get over it.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
The problem with this argument is that doing that kind of thing is, fundamentally, dumb.
These days the world is bound together by economics so tightly that no great power would dare to interfere with another great power's economy, because doing so will damage your own economy. The Chinese government may not be cute and cuddly by American standards, but they're also not stupid. The US spends such vast amounts of money in China that they are very unlikely to do anything that might cause them to stop.
The only problem is that occasionally you get a political leader who is dumb. This is rare in the big countries, because for the big countries to be big, they must have governments that work, and if they work they tend to prevent dumb people from reaching positions of power.
I think it's far more likely that these attacks, if there are organised attacks --- those news 'reports' don't actually contain any accountable information from what I can see; the SANS institute seems to be a company selling tickets to conferences --- are coming from the Chinese equivalent of l33t dud45 who are fishing for information to sell to organised crime.
I think you've fallen for the Big Lie: that evil exists. It doesn't. There is no such thing. There are only people.
It's very, very easy to tag people as being Evil (or with some other name, like 'lefties') because it means that you don't have to understand them any more. Q: Why did this person hijack a plane and fly it into a building? A: Because he's Evil. It's too easy.
The truth is that that person is a person, just as valid is you or I. He had opinions, beliefs, a childhood. He had a mother and a father. When he was 5 the family cat died and he cried for three days. When he was 10 he had a crush on the girl two houses down that he was too embarassed to admit. When he was 13 he had his first wet dream and sneaked out the back with the dirty sheets, terrified his parents would find out. When he was 16, he got into a fight with a friend and broke his arm by accident, and he had nightmares about it for years.
He was real.
But people don't like to think about this. It's easier to kill people if you don't believe they're people. If you can just tag them as The Enemy you don't have to deal with them any more. He probably believed he was doing the right thing, that he was one of the good guys striking a blow against evil. He probably deeply regretted the fact that so many innocent people were going to die, but believed that it was necessary, and that he had no choice. He may have prayed for them, asking God to forgive them their sins and accept them into heaven, despite their heathen ways. You might have liked him.
It's far too easy to bandy around words like 'oppressive murderous governments', except you're forgetting that countries are not governments, they're made of people, and those people are going to be hurt. How many innocent Iraqi civilians do you think have been hurt or killed in the US invasion? How many people in the Iraqi government have been hurt or killed? The first number is a hell of a lot bigger than the second number.
How many innocent Iraqi civilians do you think would have been hurt if the invasion had not happened?
Why, we are YELLOW, of course!!! :^)
High quality goods are a lot less expensive in China. Many of the new shopping malls in China have over twice the square footage as the pentagon. Though they make less money it goes farther. Also comparing GDP per person doesn't work well when the ratio is on the order of 4:1. When you factor the change in working population the China's GDP per person isn't bad. With the growth rate of a conservative %8, the GDP per person in China will double in 10 years, making them the number one player. A number one player with a much lower payroll that goes farther.
On the other hand, visit a normal Chinese school where they go to the bathroom in plastic pails and see the forbidden city in the winter when you can't even see a mile because the gray haze from all the coal they burn is so thick. Remember, Chinese tourism is state run. They MIGHT. Just MIGHT. Be showing you what they want you to see.
I do security
First atomic weapon created by man was inferior technology? Uhh, ok. Guess we really got lucky.
Isn't that the place with an appauling human rights record ?
Things like imprisonment without trial , torture and censorship .
The air is certainly on the thick side. So is the traffic -- it made LA, DC and NY traffic look thin, well not quite thin, just not as bad.
You mean other countries, spy on us??!!!! People seem to think this is surprising, new, or uncommon.
I do security
Similiar economic reasoning was offered up before World War I as the reason there would not be another great european war.
Is this the war Rumsfeld wanted?
Retired from software... maybe. Sort of.
Code Red Option: 'Hacked By Chinese' OR Recent news option: 'lol, no this is not the chinese'
The whole time I was there I felt like I was moving inside a dome. It was honestly like the realization of the fog of war in a Warcraft game.
I do security
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We're an Army-sponsored engineering research group that already worries about this. Just take a look at the China Journal of System Simulation for an amazing look at China's emerging technological dominance.
URL: http://www.china-simulation.com/esite/preview/05-0 5.htm n ew_0035.html
Graphic: http://courses.washington.edu/goodall/MRFM/whats_
As the graphic says, "open strategic advantage (OSA) strategies are easy to understand, impossible to stop, and yield global strategic advantages". Or as China's books on business strategy say: "Deceive the sky, to cross the ocean."
You forgot the bodily fluids, gotta protect your precious bodily fluids. Commie bastards !
Haven't they been saying this for 40-odd years?
Jesus, what kind of patriot are you ?
Of course not! The Tiananmen Square incident happened in 1989! Or didn't happen in 1989.
"The attacks have been traced to the Chinese province of Guangdong, and the techniques used make it appear unlikely to come from any other source than the military, said Alan Paller, the director of the SANS Institute, an education and research organization focusing on cybersecurity. To go into details, the attack on U.S. military IT infrastructure was conducted by delivering physical force to the U.S. Air Force main router, by a precisely timed jump of an estimate 2 million chinese which was transmitted by waves through the Earth core such that a peak was created at the U.S. router. In China, only the military is believed to own so many precise clocks to orchestrate such an attack."
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
The United States makes too much money off of China and vice versa for either country to go to war with each other. Taiwan and the rest are meaningless. Money talks, people. Why would you active seek to destroy a country that is the mainstay of your economy (that goes for both China and the US)?
As I replied to a similar comment above, this line of economic thinking was also offered up before World War I as the surefire reason that Europe would never descend into another war.
"It's far too easy to bandy around words like 'oppressive murderous governments', except you're forgetting that countries are not governments"
Countries are the governments that control them for all practical purposes and certainly within the realm of debate on foreign policy. Especially given the post-Imperialism conditions that can be found in many parts of the world where peoples who share no history with each other are located within the borders of 'countries'.
Anyways, if there is no evil then there's nothing wrong with not giving a shit about how many Iraqi's have been killed in Iraq.
... They detected the attack because they 've found a Ruby Script on ther nuclear weapons server. :-P
I got the impression that China's biggest fear was it's own people; and rightly so, there are a lot of them. From an arm-chair-quarter-back perspective, I think that as long as they can maintain prosperity, the masses will be appeased, which is what the Chinese government wants. Full employment is probably there number one goal -- it should be ours too.
The loaded pistol or the poison ?
Obviously as none of those things you propose are likely to happen, you will need some final, insurmountable way to protect those bodily fluids.
Brig. Gen. Jack T. Ripper, is that you ?
Okay, okay. This is going to sound a LOT like yet another one of the innumerable mindless, inflammatory anti-Microsoft rants out there, but please, hear me out, okay?
Two years ago, according to several sources including Computer World - the story may also have been covered here - Microsoft gave China access to the entirety of the Windows operating system source code. This was part of a so-called 'Government Security Program', which would allow governments and international political and military organizations to supposedly build stronger security systems and firewalls. This is nothing new, I know. Microsoft has shared the Windows source code with people before. The difference here is that they are handing it directly to a governmental entity, possibly including governments that percieve the United States as an enemy or a threat. Other participants in the GSP include the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the United Kingdom, and Russia. Microsoft had been in talks with other 30 nations and other parties at the time the article I've referenced was written. (I'm afraid I'm strapped for time, so I can't exactly do more research at the moment to find out who the other 30 are.)
This sounds interesting, and I'd actually buy this GSP garbage if it wasn't for the fact that the agreement states that these governments can't modify or recompile the source code themselves. Either Microsoft's head honchos are really naive, or they're counting on us being just as stupid. Anyone with half a brain can understand just how much power that source code can grant you. With it, you have the ability to know every security hole - intentional or otherwise - that exists in the Windows operating system, which to this day powers a vast majority of the computers in the world. That code, which is closed to us commoners, could easily be percieved not as a security tool - who wants to use Windows for security? - but rather, as a weapon. The GSP, I theorize, was most likely a cover for a program that likely netted Microsoft a great deal of money and a lot of international government support... Honestly. China? They'd have to be braindead to think that China wouldn't use this power against us.
Admittedly, we have the same power, and we've probably had it for longer, too. This doesn't make us safer, though, if it's sealed up inside some vault somewhere, not being used to fix the security holes in Windows that plague many home users and businesses. Now we're acting surprised that China, after the fact, is training an elite team of hackers? This isn't a surprise, it's the NEXT LOGICAL STEP. That'd be like a soldier standing on Normandy Beach in 1944 saying, "Okay, I'm in the middle of a battle. I could use this here rifle to, yaknow, pick off some of these yay-hoos shootin' at me, but... Eh, I think I'll go after 'em with my combat knife instead." *HUMILIATION* So what now? China has the one weapon in the world that can actually rival the destructive and disruptive power of a nuclear weapon without even a fraction of the mess. They have the source code of the most popular and one of the least secure operating systems today, along with who knows what else. Of COURSE they're going to start attacking us. They don't LIKE us.
So what does this make Microsoft? Like I said before, are the head honchos of Microsoft really that amazingly, impossibly stupid, or have they been passing out source code to our enemies - source code that they refuse to give to virtually anyone else outside of a partner in business or an Ivy League university program - for a while now? As far as I know, the manner in which they handle the source code they give out to business partners and educational institutions is extremely strict. I've only heard of one partial leak ever occurring, and wasn't the person responsible for it found pretty quick? Anyway... Okay, here's China, saying "Microsoft Windows is a threat and a vulnerability," source code in hand, training a team of elite hackers to launch coordinated attacks against U.S. interests... Can we hold Microsof
Except that the KSM met with a backlash even from the US Government, while China's response to Tiananmen was "So? What are the little fuckers gonna do about it?"
The very fact that people in the US can talk about how horrible the KSM was shows a difference between the two countries.
Labeling someone as 'evil' isn't ignoring the fact that he or she is a 'real' person. If someone commits acts of violence or other atrocities that don't fit in your morals, that person is 'evil' according to you. Evil is just an adjective, and it doesn't mean the person isn't 'real'. Sure, the person might have grown up with a normal childhood such as you described, but somewhere along the line, their morals changed and their viewpoints changed in such a way that they do things that a civilized person would consider to be evil.
The total population of the planet Earth is 6,446,131,400 as of July 2005. 1,306,313,812 of which belongs to China, and 1,080,264,388 to India with the Europian Union running a long third at 456,953,258 and the United States running an even longer fourth at 295,734,134. The total available monetary assests of the planet Earth is $55,500,000,000,000 US. 11,750,000,000,000 of which belongs to the United States with the European Union running a close second at $11,650,000,000,000 and China running a long third with $7,262,000,000,000. India ranks in at fith with a modest GDP of $3,319,000,000,000. The United States ranks 157th on the birth rate chart with 14.4. China comes in at 164th with 13.14. What does all this mean? It means that most of the wealth of this world is owned by the United States and European Union. That's GDP people. Solid wealth PRODUCTION. China dose'nt even hold a candle. With the world opening into a global free market, this MUST change. What we are seeing is the begining of a global wealth re-distribution. Unfortunatly for us here in the U.S. that means those that have will loose, and those that don't have will gain. It will be a crash for us, and a major boon for the Earth as a whole. After it all balances out in a couple of hundred years. It is unfortunate, but I don't see the rich people of the world loosing any of their money in this redistributino of wealth. In fact, I see the rich getting massivley richer, the poor getting a little bit richer, and the middle of the road disapearing almost entirley. In a couple of century's mind you.
Oooh ooh don't even get me started on 2+2=4!!! *begins foaming around the mouth* ;) j/k
:)
:) (blame it on the CRTs and lights if you wish)
Yes Slashdot is amazing and so is the real world too, it's absolutely astonishing how little it takes to get a lot of people totally and senselessly hysterical (not riled up --although that's easy as pie too-- but plain hysterical). There are some measured responses in this thread but they seem few and far between (at least among those modded positively).
Anyway, nice AC's are the color green and mean AC's are the color yuck
Onto the topic: just about any country will try a little bit of hacking "now and then" (i.e. as much as they can get away with) and no it's not necesarily the same as war, actually often it can be the exact opposite of war (NRO, NSA & unnamed seldom start wars & regularily avoid them afaik and that process is not a one-way street). Might also be wise to remember that China isn't quite as homogeneous as the CCP would like it.
Not that I'm an apologist for the CCP (I'm anti-socialist); I wish they'd get the hell out of Tibet and leave Taiwan alone plus a lot of other stuff, but I still think Nixon & co chose the right strategy (and apparently every single president after Nixon have shared this point of view).
p.s. Whitey McWhite? You fall in a bucket of paint or something? We're pink! Caucasians are pink, even caucasian nerds are pink or at least yellowish
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
China knows it has an economic growth comming, and it's a long time in comming, isn't it?
Anyway, with this growth they are susspicious. They don't feel the more wealthy countries will be so remiss as to allow their riches to just funell away. So China may be slowley stepping up it's intelligence gathering opperations to this effect.
China is a big bad machine. If we give them an inch they will take $3,000 miles without a heartbeats pause.
When in Rome....
Given the sensitivity of military data and computer networks, why is there even a way in from the outside?
- 175.html). Simply having passwords and firewalls can (and has been) defeated, but if the only physical path from outside in is through an encryption device, I would think that would effectively thwart any attempts to get in.
Not being "in the know" on breaking into computer systems, there is likely something I'm missing. However, if the military networks are carrying data sensitive enough to cause this kind of trouble, why not isolate those systems from the outside world. By that I mean physically isolated, as in zero Internet connections.
To go from site to site, any and all data traffic passes through encryption devices, such as a TACLANE KG-175 (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/security/_work/kg
I guess my question is: if there is no physical connection between a classified network and an unclassified network, how does one break into it?
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I for one welcome our new Azn h4>0r overlords. No, seriously, I think that it's great that many people in China are improving their lives (just wish it wasn't in IT), but it sucks that our government (USA) doesn't have the balls to prevent corruption and power abuses and then worry about other nations human rights abuses (though even the worst prisoner abuses here are nothing compared to what has been done in China, and the frequency is much greater there also).
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Spying is healthy. The U2s we sent over Russia and, later on, the spy sattelites did more to stop WWIII then anything else. Every spies on everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if Britain spies on the US and visa versa.
I had to re-itterate in a more to the point fashion, that the current state of finance in the world has a little over 1% of the worlds population (United States + European Union) controlling almost 50% of the worlds total GDP.
We have nothing to worry about in our lifetimes.
I didn't plan it. I'm not the one who decreased the American workforce by half in just 5 years.
Decrease is a little vague...unemoployment rate is 1.2% higher than it was 5 years ago. ( reuters.com)
And with that trade deficit we'll be able to afford to do so exactly how long? We already can't feed our own population.
US per capita income: $40,100
China per capita income: $ 5,600
(Source www.cia.gov)
We aren't exactly hurting compared to the average Chinese, especially considering US citizens only spend 6.4% of their income on food (the lowest percentage of reported countries). (Source ific.org). No one has to starve in the USA; tragically there are those who still do, but there is plenty of food and money to go around. It's a resource allocation problem, not a question of affordability.
Which is bad enough for the common American LABORER- for whom American businesses are already traitors in this war.
You are probably right here that NEITHER US or Chinese laborers will benefit from a price war...
Then you haven't been paying attention to what the Waltons are saying.
I was surprised by a great NPR piece on the upcoming Walmart Movie which suggested that Walmart really does do some things to help common laborers like provide a lot of unskilled jobs, cashes a LOT of checkes, and keep the price of consumer goods down. Allbeit US manufacturing is suffering, it's not only Walmart's fault..."Traitor" is uncalled for...The Walton are mid-western American buisness owners, not anti-patriotic communists.
Which is bad enough- a Wal*Mart every three miles and no other stores at all.
While the loss of small buisnesses and farm owners preceded the fall of the Roman Empire (college history class), maybe in a World Wide Economy the Walmarts allow for more efficient transfer of goods and services.
Or at least they're pretending to- while they destroy jobs here and close our home retail outlets to sell their shoddy goods through traitors to America.
Do you know anyone who has been to China in the last couple of years!?!? Things ARE changing...and if the worst part of your war is the exchange of shoddy goods, then you clearly don't have much experience with a "World War". It should conjure images of hollocaust and depraved trench war fare, not poorly made can-openers and long check-out lines.
Except for China, who has already stated that if we interfere with their next invasion they will nuke American cities.
Do you have a source for that allegation? China wouldn't make that threat, much less carry it out.
Or http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2005/12/13/AR2005121302007.html
0 5/12/02/in_china_nuns_reported_beaten_protecting_l and_from_developer/
or
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/20
Absolutely. Suitepotato, you just said the most blessed thing ever:
They are fellow humans, the people of China. They deserve better than that gang of thugs in power. I wish them luck in outlasting their predecessors' mistake in choosing to empower those creeps
Hear hear!
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
One interesting possibility to consider is that the relentless quest for quality in Japan and now Shanghai is sometimes not based on sound economics. In other words, a lot of the high-quality construction and services are money-losing propositions.
However, it is possible that some of this pays off by drawing people to the cities, and drawing in more investment, on a larger scale... I don't know, but I doubt it in the end. Japan was hit hard by their inefficiencies in this area.
But modern economies are so productive, it seems they can sometimes handle huge waste, disaster, or inefficiency and keep on chugging. Every country seems to have something like this going on, whether it's the military in the U.S., construction in Japan, or social services in Europe...
Stop trading with these pricks and strengthening their nation. Than they can lob all the packets they like at us and it won't matter.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
the raw amount of scans and attempted break-ins from mainland chinese A-classes was ridiculous.
route add -net 221.0.0.0/8 gw 127.0.0.1
among many others was the only way to stop my logs from overflowing.
What reality were *you* in in 1989? Were you even thought of yet? I mean... I *witnessed* the tanks, I saw the blood - albiet on television. And yet, you cite the Almighty Wikipedia. How funny are you? Do you *really* think that in this day and age, you would find useful information about Tiannamen?
j une/4/newsid_2496000/2496277.stm
-- watch the video
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book79e.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html -- here's your pictures!!
But I believe the ones you really want are here: http://www.cnd.org/June4th/photos/mascr003.gif.
Yeah, they were *so* in support of those students... of MURDERING them! You should be ASHAMED!!!!!!!!
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
I guess you missed the satire in this: "Just ask Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!"
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
First: Yeah, a war with China would probably suck for our economy. But in a war of attrition, it's a 11 trillion GDP (U.S.) versus a 8.5 trillion GDP (China).
Second: It's hard to tell really. On one hand, yeah, China has a shit load of infantry. On the other hand, their navy is a joke, and they're flying planes that are way obsolete. In a war we could easily hit their coast and get their big cities, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. From there we could bomb like stupid -- it is our specialty after all.
In a nuke war: I'm not aware of any chinese anti-missile technologies, furthurmore, dropping nukes on big cities is really, really, really bad buisness. I doubt anybody would side with China if they did that, and no matter what you think of their armed forces, the World vs. China is a very clear battle.
Third: 50/50 chance Russia would side with China. Siding with china would mean going against the EU, which would be a bitch for Russia.
Fourth: Doubt it. India is very close to us (recent patriot missiles for example) and gets a lot of money from U.S. buissness. The recent msft investment? Gone. Plus they would probably help us just to save their own ass.
Fifth: At the moment China has yet to invent any great technology in recent years. If we were to block them off they would have to learn to get creative really f---ing fast. Their ability to do so is arguable.
There is no democracy in Venezuela. All that is left is a hollow national assembly that is directly controlled by the president, who is a common thief with aspirations to become the next Saddam Hussein.
I had a feeling, back during the Operation Sundevil days, when tons of
teenaged computer hackers were jailed and barred from touching computers, that
the US policy of jailing talented smart computer hackers would come back to bit
us in the ass. The very people who would have been best equipped to wage a
possible cyber-war, are barred from it, and other countries will expoit that
weakness. We should have been giving those kids jobs and training instead of
jail.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
You mean something like, murder 3,000 of your own citizens to rally support for multiple invasions into sovereign countries? I've seen buildings collapse, and I've seen buildings be demolished with explosives. Which did the WTC more closely resemble?
C'mon slashdotters, show em who's boss!
Im sure China's geeks work day and night, week after week, slaving over a dark keyboard to crack your systems.
US's geeks spent about an hour on the encryptions, then logged on WoW and raided MC for the rest of the day.
Am no fek Buddhist, but this is enlightenment.
I agree I can't understand why Bush waited so long...Hopefully, he is the last one to confuse ends and means, but I too have my doubts.
However, I worry more about a US attack on N. Korea or Iran, than I do about a US-China war. The latter just strikes me as far-fetched on all levels.
I wonder how many Chinese agents/patriots are astroturfing this thread right now?
There's got to be more than one. Do you think their message is that "the US is a great country, and that Democracy is better than dictatorship of the prolitariet?"
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
WTF? Please back that up. I'd like to see Cambell flogged in the stocks like most BC'ers, but attacks on critical websites... seems unlikely. If so, that's news, man, don't keep it to yourself, share your records.
Damn those pesky terrorists
The Chinese play a mean game of GO (wei chi). I'm not particularly good at it, but the whole feel of the game is quite different. It's really challenging to say which of some moves is better or why. Moves often have very subtle effect over a large area of the board, and the "battle" is fought on many many fronts. It fits the "in everything they do" part of your comment better than chess.
You want to understand their strategy? Study their strategy game.
High quality goods are a lot less expensive in China.
They're also made there with cheap labor; those involved at the lowest level of the manufacturing process can't even think about purchasing what they make. The same surely can't be said of the US. The higher cost of goods in the US is related to the higher level of well-being of those involved in getting them to the consumer.
Also comparing GDP per person doesn't work well when the ratio is on the order of 4:1.
I'll entertain that notion for the moment. Their GDP is about $7.6 trillion, ours 11.7. Theirs is growing at about 9.1%, ours 4.4. In five years, ceretis paribus, they'll be where we are now, but we'll be in the neighborhood of 14.6. However, they'll still have a billion or so more people, many of whom are peasants. Yes, they still have peasants (estimated to be between 800 and 900 million). I think that precludes their entry into "first-world" status. If you convert the numbers to GDP per capita sine rusticis, then they're pretty close to the US. But that's ignoring well over half of their population, which is kinda hard to do.
violence is molding.
sent from my slashdot browser.
I wish I could mod you higher but your comment is already at 5.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
"What reality were *you* in in 1989? Were you even thought of yet? I mean... I *witnessed* the tanks, I saw the blood - albiet on television."
I saw the same television in Mr. Davis' sixth grade class.
Did you read anything I wrote, let alone what's in Wikipedia? I did not say "nobody was killed," and I did not say "The PRC didn't massacre its own civillians in a desperate bid to retain power," I said "No students were killed in the square." Many many people died at the hands of the People's Liberation Army in Beijing, but they weren't students, and they weren't in the square.
You would think that in an enlightened, republican society, what happened to the man-on-the-street in Beijing would be more important than what did (not) happen to a socialist student protest (in a communist state, go figure). The Party did not gun down the students because everybody was watching, but they did gun down the people nobody paid any attention to, because students are more important, to the Party and apparently to the West.
And it continues to hold true today. The only reason you and the parent and everybody else remember it is because they think that the people they saw on the picture box were the ones killed. The ones that died never got their 15 minutes.
This does not speak well of our society or our values.
This has been going on since the mid nineties.
go ahead and google "titan rain"
[ ]Clever sig [X]Lame sig
Just because you've visited the touristy areas of a huge Chinese mega-city, that doesn't make you an expert on China. Did you happen to visit the slums while you were there? How about the rural farmers that can barely feed and clothe their families?
And guess what, the McDonalds in my small US town will also bring your food to your table if it's not ready right away. I've seen this at a few other fast food joints too. This means nothing other than that particular store's manager cares about running the place and the kids who work there aren't too retarded.
Your view of China is about as real as that of someone who forms an opinion of the US solely based on a visit to New York City.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
You are a well spoken hysterical nutcase. There is a big difference between economic dislocation and actual war. Fudging the meaning of war like that is bad semantics. Widespread acceptance of your viewpoint would lead to real troops fighting with real bullets and real people dying. Unfair economic policies can be tackled without resorting to inflammatory rhetoric like "American businesses are traitors". No they are merely making rational choices given the realities created by American trade policy. Want to make them fair? Change the policies so that the rational choices lead to jobs at home.
And China and America are not enemies, but if everyone says it enough they will be.
I thought "War on ......" was a American euphemism for "an unsolvable problem we will futilely waste vast resources on in an ongoing and unsuccesful attempt to solve using means and methods long ago shown not to work." (Sounds like a corporate mission statement, doesn't it)
"War on Poverty," "War on Drugs," and "War on Terrorism" are perfect examples.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
Sure, it's because you and everyone you know is unwilling to pay $3000 for a computer, which you would if cheap Asian parts vanished, because North Americans figure that it's a right to earn $15 an hour.
Got any hard questions?
-
Inventor of the term 'pardon my French'.
"Titan Rain", pah. So what's "Screaming Fist" in Chinese, anyways?
But at the end of the day, these words are useless. Our country is becoming weaker and weaker because of both liberal and conservative ideologies, and no matter how much you pathetic types try to show understanding and tolerance toward the evils of other cultures just because we aren't perfect ourselves, you will find out that you won't get any special treatment when the US is weak enough to be taken advantage by these other cultures. You'll be as fucked as the rest of us. Wouldn't you rather the US to be the strongest and run the risk of corruption than let ourselves be weaker and risk being taken advantage of by stronger cultures who almost certainly will be just as corrupt if not worse? Have a backbone and stand up and practice a litte self-preservation. The world is a jungle, you know. There isn't always a happy liberal solution. The power-mongers in other countries don't appreciate the liberals in the US...they use you to their advantage and laugh at your pussy asses in private.
China will always need to rely on exports. Do you expect the Chinese to start buying products at the rate that American consumers do?
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
I call Shens. Small adjustments in the amount of income that is taxed for SS will easily cover the increase in SS payments because of all the Baby Boomers leaving the work force. Some of these adjustments have already been made.
Moreover, most of the way that China keeps it's dominance in the world market is through illegally manipulating it's currencies value. They peg it to the Dollar. Recently China said it would allow it's currency to raise slightly against the dollar. The amount they let it rise though was insignificant.
The United States is in trillions of dollars of debt, and our population compared to a country like China is small. If, in a war sense we looked at both sides, China has the advantage due to the fact of their population. But looking at it from another point of view, virtual war isn't going to be the only front for becoming the super power of the world. For example, just as the United States puts it's coastal missile defense systems up, countries including China are complaining as the system comes into existence. Most Nuclear warfare no longer is a problem against the Unites States, and this scares them. So China decides they want to go to war and no ones on the side of the USA, well we nuke them and they can't nuke us. Due to the fact that we could wipe out China's population easily with the over 10,000 nuclear missiles which can hit anywhere in the world with a push of a button or if we feel the need to not have a nuclear winter, their are always some of the new weapons we have now that don't create nuclear winters. So I begin to think that these attacks even if brought upon by the China's military are just merely tests to see how strong our computer systems are in the case they want to spy on what the USA government is doing. Remember in the past the only way that the different country got our advancements was through spying on our countries advancements, well our government is a lot more tightly tied and it bring me to think that China is looking to see what doors are open to steal whats next on USA's horizon of advancement.
What is your basis for thinking that the U.S. doesn't understand this? Just because WalMart buys t-shirts from China, it doesn't mean our military and counter-intelligence forces aren't playing hardball with the Chinese. Heck just because WalMart is buying in China doesn't mean they aren't playing hardball with every negotiation.
Make no mistake--plenty of people understand the score with China. International detente and diplomacy is not exactly a new subject to the U.S. But what you need to understand is that part of the rules of such a game is the public face of the relationship. China and the U.S. may sit at the table like friends, shaking hands and doing deals, but make no mistake--under the table, out of view, they wrestle for advantage. Just because you, Joe Public, don't see the weapons, don't assume they aren't there.
The real thing to understand with respect to China is that they are at significant disadvantage to the U.S. right now. Their technology is behind, their economy is almost an order of magnitude less powerful, they have a less capable military, a less capable populace. The only effective lever they have with which to grapple with the U.S. is brute-force manufacturing.
Yes, they are changing, but so is the U.S. Don't make the mistake of comparing the U.S. of today to the China of 20 years from now.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
An excellent point, which is why the vast majority of weapons systems used by the US are built in the US with US components. The COTS gear is another matter. The post-war situation would without a doubt be seriously screwed up, but I'd imagine in-sourcing would come back into fashion.
Luke, help me take this mask off
And blame the consumers. Wal-Mart only sells what people buy.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
More democracy does not necessarily equate to more freedom ... see "The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad" by Fareed Zakaria for details.
This stuff has been going on for a while. Remember a few years ago when that Chinese military jet (the pilot was ironically named "Wong Wei") collided with the US spy plane? They've been trying to hack the US Government at least since then. Of course, the US is doing it to them as well. That's what the NSA is for. I guess this demonstrates the bad training that China's military has. Apparently they don't hack correctly to successfully hide themselves. The US has probably carried out plenty of cyber-attacks, but "no one" knows about this. Those who would know can't say, and those who have been attacked likely don't know who attacked them or can't say anything because the US blackmailed them.
That said, that oil pipeline story sounds like it's gotten a little bit garbled in the telling. It doesn't really make sense as written.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The already have.
They stopped buying months ago.
They're quite effective at showing a nice facade to the west, while most of the population doesn't really have access to the facade goodies.
The Raven
Who are the criminals: Those attempting entry, or those publicizing the attempt? "Shut up out there, woman! All that screamin' about your huhu'll make folks think we got a crime problem."
Children, can you spell a-p-p-e-a-s-e-m-e-n-t? I knew you could! Your stance reminds me of the guy I sat on a drunk driving jury with. He didn't care what the evidence was, he just didn't trust the cops. While I've seen evidence that the US Federal Government can't always be trusted, this isn't one of those cases.
Luke, help me take this mask off
If they don't happen within the next 5 years, they'll happen after the next depression which will cause a civil war here. The situation is becoming intollerable for the average person in the United States, they won't accept the dictatorship of Wal*Mart and Big Oil forever.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Well, this just proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are a complete idiot. China makes our inferior equipment, and if you think a nation with less than an eighth of China's population is able to throw vast numbers of troops at China then you failed kindergarden math.
With our current manufacturing capability going idle, we don't need troops. Smart, creative, and willing to spend 120% of our GDP is what we need.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
And yet, every time I turn on the news these days, it's "Counterfeit Chinese" this and "Pirated Chinese" that. These western companies are expecting the Chinese government to respect 'Intellectual Property' rights of foreign corporations when the Chinese government doesn't even respect the REAL property rights of its own citizens. SuperShuffle anyone?
I know a few LT Colonel's and was told that the chinese mainland was pretty much indefensable. That we would essentially have to blow up a few damns to kill 10's of millions of people, and cripple their food production.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
First, your handle is Marxist hacker, so why are you pissed at the chinese?
Maybe because they're MAOIST, not MARXIST? But more importantly, because they've chosen an attack which harms the worker, and enriches the capitalist traitors to America- like the Walton family.
Second, requiring chokepoints essentially sets up government monitoring and thus control (ala "patriot" act).
A government is supposed to monitor and control it's borders. That's the whole point of bothering with a government to begin with- to provide for the common defense against invasion. Why is a cyberinvasion treated any differently?
P.S. perhaps you should change your handle to "National Socialist Hacker" instead?
Nope, national socialists let corporations take over government, I'm definately against corporations having any political power whatsoever.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
First: Yeah, a war with China would probably suck for our economy. But in a war of attrition, it's a 11 trillion GDP (U.S.) versus a 8.5 trillion GDP (China).
Wars are fought with more than money, and if we had a war with China, both GDPs would come crashing down, hard.
Second: It's hard to tell really. On one hand, yeah, China has a shit load of infantry. On the other hand, their navy is a joke, and they're flying planes that are way obsolete. In a war we could easily hit their coast and get their big cities, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. From there we could bomb like stupid -- it is our specialty after all.
In a nuke war: I'm not aware of any chinese anti-missile technologies, furthurmore, dropping nukes on big cities is really, really, really bad buisness. I doubt anybody would side with China if they did that, and no matter what you think of their armed forces, the World vs. China is a very clear battle.
China's poltical and military leadership have stated recently that they know that they could not win a conventional war with the US, and have flatly stated that any agression from the US (including intervention in Taiwan) will be met by nuclear force. That's a doomsday scenario, doubly so if Russia sides with China (a decent probability). No winners here boys and girls.
Third: 50/50 chance Russia would side with China. Siding with china would mean going against the EU, which would be a bitch for Russia.
I don't know if the EUs involvement will be as cut and dry as you seem to think. Despite our Presidents insistance on having some sort of "political capital" pixie dust, we've pissed most of the European Community off. I mean, if China was the clear agressor the US would be highly likely to receive help from the EU, but if the US invades China preemptively it could be a far different story. In fact, I could conceivably see the EU helping China fight back the US, if China promised not to sling nukes...
Fourth: Doubt it. India is very close to us (recent patriot missiles for example) and gets a lot of money from U.S. buissness. The recent msft investment? Gone. Plus they would probably help us just to save their own ass.
I don't think India would be as much of a power player this hypethetical scenario, especially if Russa was involved. Maybe some lght support, but I honestly think they'd be too scared to really jump in fully, not to mention that strong Indian action could destabalize the situation with Pakistan. I don't really know tho, so take this bit lightly.
Fifth: At the moment China has yet to invent any great technology in recent years. If we were to block them off they would have to learn to get creative really f---ing fast. Their ability to do so is arguable.
Here's where you're both right and horribly horribly wrong. The Chinese aren't (seemingly) developing homegrown tech, but why should they... See, one of the attacks that made this article possible was a breaking of either Boeing, Lockheed Martin, or both. Within those companies computer systems is a treasure trove of modern aircraft, material, and computing technology. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if they are currently right there with us as far as advanced military aircraft go, even if they ARE using our own designs...
Protests in China tend to get run over by tanks.
Aside from that your post makes sense - but when vietnam/ethiopia becomes the new china/japan what happens to western nations? Do we make money by owning the chinese companies or by selling the "emerging" worlds massive populations drugs?
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
Dude, you are smoking some seriously twisted stuff if you believe that. (Or, more likely, you are reading some seriously twisted "information" sources that are feeding you some serious lies.)
I lived it. I spent 3 years unemployed myself during that time period. So did several million others. When it looked like the unemployment numbers were getting to high, they started reclassifying the long term unemployed as "discouraged" or "disabled" to remove them from the offical labor force. If you were able to be disabled, like me, you got some help; but if you were merely discouraged, like my wife, you were cut off from any help when your unemployment ran out.
I know people who ended up HOMELESS over this, and a couple who ended up DEAD. So don't tell me that it didn't happen.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Chavez is a puppet of Fidel Castro; he is just a pawn on Castro's plan to turn Latin America against the US, a pawn that has a lot of oil for Castro to use for that goal. It is funny that Chavez uses the threat of American interventionism to foster nationalism, when he has sold Venezuela and all of its riches to Castro, the most terrible dictator in power today.
About the freedom, tell that to the union leader (Carlos Ortega) that just yesterday was sentenced to 15 years of prison for striking against the government, or to the public workers that were told by an oficialist senator that they would be fired if they didn't vote for the government.
The Pentagon's web page one day was replaced with a page that said "Hacked by Chinese."
Remember, Chinese tourism is state run. They MIGHT. Just MIGHT. Be showing you what they want you to see.
I think you still need to implicate the USA somehow in your post to get mod points though.
Ten thousand years of civilization and warfare, and the face of war has always remained the same: people killing people and breaking things en masse, wholesale slaughter. The means and methods may have changed, but the results, the aftermath has always been the same: smouldering cities and bloodsoaked soil. Are you so vain as to believe that humanity is somehow above all that now and things have magically changed in the past hundred months that haven't changed in the past hundred centuries?
No, I'm saying that in the past 40 years we've found a new way to accomplish it much more slowly- by destroying the foundation of a nation's economy so that the cities fall apart and anybody who isn't independantly wealthy starves to death trying to pay for fuel and supplies that are reserved for the rich.
I call it the revenge of Tojo- since it was McArthur's Japan that started the trend.
And before you start pointing at 9/11, not even that qualifies. The Romans did far worse to Carthage and they didn't have airplanes or the Internet. Try finding something in Atlanta older than 150 years.
If we keep going down this path, try finding any buildings that aren't shacks or slums in America that aren't in Bentonville, Alabama where the Chinese are installing their new government in 20 years.
Any more than, say, the Great Depression? Even with the surge of population in the US since the 1930's, I'd still wager the raw numbers are higher from the '30's, and that was peacetime.
Actually, during the 30's it was still possible to forage for food- go hunting without a $500 permit or a $20,000 fine. Now it isn't.
Again, you have zero sense of scale.
And you have NO idea what some people out west have been through in the past 5 years.
Starvation during wartime comes because international shipments of food are seized/sunk and domestic food sources are torched, blighted, salted, or otherwise eliminated by human violence, and everybody knows it. You sure as hell don't start talking about a freakin' obesity epidemic. Hell, look at postwar Japan, and that was even after we called off our submarine fleet.
The "obesity epidemic" is a sign of malnutrition in the United States- of McDonald's hamburgers being cheaper than good food. It ends when the unemployment runs out.
And, again, this is something North America has not seen in almost 150 years. No rational person would even pretend this qualifies as a war.
Apparently you haven't seen my Journal- rational is something I certainly am not. Rational is just making up stories to lie about what is really going on.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
As per Amnesty International, China executes the most prisoners every year. Who is number two? The USA, ahead of Iran, Saudi Arabia and a whole host of de facto dictatorships. Democracy or not, there are certain points of the human rights debate that the US and China are actually a lot closer than one might assume. Both China and the US maintain secret prisons. Both detain people without a proper trial, legal representation or access to aid groups like the Red Cross. Both censor information that reaches the public, China overtly and the USA covertly. China makes it nigh impossible to find certain facts, the US just makes it require effort - you can't just turn on the TV and get the 'truth', so to speak. Both advocate torture, again with China doing it overtly, but with the US doing it covertly under a host of euphemisms and legal hijinks. To me, they aren't opposites. China is just further down the road that the USA seems to want to travel on.
I'll tolerate anything except intolerance.
Yes, there are some speakers of Chinese dialects in Australia, and there are many more in the United States, but according to the numbers, they don't travel very far from their origins. The big winners are places like Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, places where China has been a big regional influence for centuries.
When you start looking at the US (or Australia, probably), the Chinese are still something of a diaspora, and the only ones that still speak their Chinese dialect are the ones stuck in the sweatshops; it's because they don't speak English that they're stuck there. I'd wager it's a similar situation with the Chinese population in France: speak French or keep sewing. The children might speak (for example) Mandarin at home with their family, but rarely outside the house and more rarely with their own chilren. China is too far away from either Australia or the United States to have a strong cultural and lingual influence on them in the same way as Indonesia and Mexico, respectively.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I type, I usually make a few mistakes. However, when I run a script it always runs the commands correctly. Even if it isn't a script, there is probably some attack case they are cutting and pasting the commands out of. It would be helpful to see how quickly individual characters are being typed, so it could be determined if they are typing the characters or not.
Also, having been in the military, there is no reason for them to train typists who never hit the wrong key.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
Consider going to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong. You might feel differently about US domination. Having been there, I could only conclude that the US was a third world country in the making and that Asia cities represent the ultra modern future we all aspire toward. If you go to Shanghai you should try the sooper high speed mag-lev train.
I don't think you understand what "Third World" means, or that a person could easily buy a working car for less than the cost of a ticket on a high-speed mag-lev train, drive to the same place the train would have brought them, and still have a working car. High-speed trains and other such things are merely expensive, shiny gimmicks, and not at all indicative of the level a civilization has attained.
That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
And why does the US need to do that? Social Security should just disappear anyway, since its taxes punish everyone because of those few who don't have the foresight to save for retirement. It's a garbage idea.
"But, Chinese is a WRITTEN language, not a spoken dialect."
Second paragraph, words 9 through 16. You need to learn to read anal-retentively before writing anal-retentively.
You're almost as annoying as the "That isn't Spanish, it's Castellano!" langauge Nazis.
"Not to mention OTHER COUNTRIES uses Chinese or part of it in their written language. Taiwanese is a one of them, as well as Japanese (Kanji) and Korean. I do believe some Southeast countries, like Malaysia and Indonesia, speak Mandarin there as well."
In other words, only those countries you can hit with a rock thrown from China. And aside from whether or not you want to call Taiwan a separate country, there is still precious little in common between Japanese or Korean (or Thai or what have you) with Chinese; they aren't related as closely to each other as European languages are (no Romans bringing people civilization by the tip of the sword). The Chinese barely conquered each other, let alone having a meaningful hold on the Korean penninsula or crossing the Sea of Japan.
5 out of 6 populated continents, Chinese won't get you very far at all. You'll probably cover more acreage with Arabic.
I realize that you said "approximately" but currently only 5 of our 12 aircraft carriers are away from their homeport: http://www.navy.mil/palib/news/.www/status.html
"No, I'm saying that in the past 40 years we've found a new way to accomplish it much more slowly- by destroying the foundation of a nation's economy so that the cities fall apart and anybody who isn't independantly wealthy starves to death trying to pay for fuel and supplies that are reserved for the rich."
That's not war. It doesn't even approach the destruction (economic or otherwise) of war. At worst, economic depression. You cannot change the meaning of the word "war" to suit your whims.
"I call it the revenge of Tojo- since it was McArthur's Japan that started the trend."
Funny, that. Looked at the Japanese banking industry lately? Or their economy in general?
"If we keep going down this path, try finding any buildings that aren't shacks or slums in America that aren't in Bentonville, Alabama where the Chinese are installing their new government in 20 years."
Since the Japanese obviously had a head start, why aren't we all speaking Japanese?
"Actually, during the 30's it was still possible to forage for food- go hunting without a $500 permit or a $20,000 fine."
Wha? In the 1930's you could get a car for $500 and a house for $20,000, and damned nice ones at that.
Of course, it's kinda tough to forage for food in the middle of the Dustbowl.
"Rational is just making up stories to lie about what is really going on."
No, rational is not playing games with terms and accusations as seirous as "war." That's like calling all diseases "cancer."
This is idiotic. It must be the Chinese military because the "attacks" originate in China, and the perpetrators "were in and out with no keystroke errors and left no fingerprints, and created a backdoor in less than 30 minutes. How can this be done by anyone other than a military organization?" Yeah, that no-keystroke-error thing is a dead giveaway.
we aren't doing it too. Remember the 2001 spy plane incident? If we have spy planes flying around, you bet we have hackers on their networks. The NSA, CIA, and military fund hacking think tanks and advanced CS research, and classify math. The military is probably downplaying China's attacks because China downplays theirs. Also, because releasing just about any information about what was cracked, what was actually a honey pot, etc., would compromise operations.
Sendou Wave Kick!!
"I will never forget the images of those young people being shot at, arrested, stampeded out of the square by the Chinese military." Two words: Kent State.
BSA: "Would you like a free Software Audit"? me: "No, thanks. My software is all Free".
Consider going to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong.
Beijing is hardly a futuristic city (not really sure why you included that one. It's a beautiful city, but it hardly fits in with the other two). Hong Kong's prosperity is completely and absolutely the result of the British rule and law, and it has diminished since the takeover.
If you go to Shanghai you should try the sooper high speed mag-lev train.
One thing about a statist economy is that you can put billions towards really dumb money sinks, all to get gullible citizens and tourists to proclaim about how futuristic it is. I hear Brazilia in Brazil is a real futuristic city as well.
I was really surprised by the whole energy of the place. When I went to McDonalds and they didn't have my food immediately, they said no problem we will find you and bring it to you when its ready. 2 min latter I had my fries. This particular McDonald's had around 30 registers all open. They said that they served 6000 lunches everyday -- just nuts. You won't find any fast food resturant in the US that can manage that volume and provide good service too.
You're impressed that they brought your food to you? Wow, your opinion really needs to be considered suspect. Fastfood restaurants everywhere bring food to you.
Regarding the McDonalds being big --- if that's your measure of prosperity... That's like saying that a town is a great town because they have the largest Walmart. I'm going to have to presume that you're being sarcastic.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
Ah, good old fear mongering and ignorant economics. Ignoring the fact that China isn't a big financer of debt (and hasn't been for some time), countries don't buy bonds because they're benevolent - they do it for their own best interest. In the case of China they buy up US $ (and formerly bonds) to prop up the dollar, which keeps the yuan undervalued and serves China.
Secondly, if China did something (ignoring that they couldn't do anything that could be rapidly circumvented) they would punish the US $, depreciating their own holdings in US bonds (most of which can't be cashed in for years and decades. Boy, win win!
Idiots that don't have the slightest clue about economics, and that are wide-eyed about isolated advantages (OMG! I hear that North Korea has gigantic pyramid towers! They must be super first world!) should just keep their ignorance to themselves. China is eventually joining the ranks of the first world, and will soon earn some "problems" like citizens that don't like being poisoned by the air and water, and who like some rights, but this pissy nonsense about how the US is doomed reeks of ignorance.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
statements like this are in the news a lot, but i've never talked to a respectable economist that thinks it's true. what model are you using to come up with this scenario? by "buying our debt" they are investing in US companies. if they are out to get us, why are they giving their savings to US companies to use for capital investment?
additionally, economic growth in china has been enormously beneficial to the united states. it has created jobs and increased growth in our own country because of increased trade. data shows it and nearly any trade model will support this whether it is an old model based on comparative advantage or a "new tade" model based on increased competition.
The US military simply discovered a few infected machines in China that happens to hammer their servers with stupid attacks. I just drop those kind of things with IP tables.
Oh well, what the hell...
I don't think we should be worrying about this...if all indications are correct, a pandemic of epic proportions are going to wipe out millions of people, starting with...yes, you guessed it...asia, China included. The l33t Chinese h4x0rs are gonna be hard pressed to h4x the US 'puters if they're dying of bird flu, fo sho'.
Chinese arn't exporting themselves? look at all the Chinese immigrants and china towns in NA... keep in mind that a large percent of the chinese population are still in poverty and can't afford to leave the country. most people in China would die to go to North America, but America and Canada only allows so many immigrants each year and they only pick the ones that qualify. (unless you are talking about refugees, that would be a different story). plus most countries in Europe doesn't even allow permenant citizenship to Chinese. even if the Chinese want to get out but they can't. the reason learning Chinese is a "fad" right now is because of the business oppertunities there. 20 year ago the people who learned japanese had the oppertunity to profit big from the growing econemy there. the same applies for China, the business oppertunities you get if you can speak chinese is huge. a few friends of mine who can speak fluid Chinese were transfered by their company to China with a high pay. there is more sense learning chinese presently because it's econemy is growing there.
Using Linux I can read the text, but using Windoze I can't !
How to set Windoze up to properly display the texts ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
1. The US and China are spying against each others. Both are bad motherfuckers to the fullest extent.
2.The US isn't as poor as some have portrayed (this you got it right)
3. Your point about Japan barely register in the radar just isn't gonna jive with the REAL TRUTH
4. This world isn't only measured in terms of population and/or wealth. Don't forget that most turmoils of human society has nothing to do with wealth and/or ethnicity, but rather, RELIGION , as evidenced in the WTC bombing, the slaughering of little children in Southern Russia, the Bali bombing, etc. And that aspect alone will altered, whether we like it or not, the world's outlook in the long-run.
6. With Rumsfeld's help, George W. Bush has fouled up almost everything, and that hurts the United States of America a lot, not only in image, but in the morale of the American as a whole. That doesn't work well with the global cut-throat competition that is happening all around us, in terms of commerce, technology, strength, believe system, and so on.
And finally...
7. Screwing around with facts and figures is easy, but to get the real facts out of everything isn't as easy as you think.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
So we have yet another "evil china" story popping up.
Let's think about this for a moment...
A crack team of chinese military hackers break into various american sensitive computers (supposedly protected by the latest and greatest) and steal information, and all of them get traced back to their computers in Guangdong.
What is wrong with this picture?
Don't know? Here's a hint: What kind of professional hacker doesn't use at least 1 zombie proxy in between himself and his target?
Have fun swimming in this sea of bullshit.
By James Sherman
(We take you now to the Oval Office.)
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Go ahead, ask them how they explain the failures of the US and other armies in the recent past to win. Bet they can't but give excuses.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
War on War.
"All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
Unbelievable.
The more curious point to be made is that it is probably hard to hide carriers (and crews) when they are in port. I'm sure the people with the spy satellites also have various ways to track at least some of those out to sea. Either way, the retaliation for attacking one or many carriers will be overwhelming and devastating. If China is to take Taiwan, they will be sure we will not have time to respond _militarily_, and then the call will be purely _political_ if we were to attempt to retake the island (and puts all options back on the table).
However, there is no assurance the Middle East conflict and the Taiwan scenerio will bubble over at the same time. Though there is a linkage between the two by economics and geography (and more). I'm just not keen on a land war in Asia situation.
In the attacks, Paller said, the perpetrators "were in and out with no keystroke errors and left no fingerprints, and created a backdoor in less than 30 minutes. How can this be done by anyone other than a military organization?"
Hello? Did you ever heard something called script?
I can't stand the accusation, at least give a bit of reason why he said it is surely a military attack, not just throwing words like "keystroke errors" and such.
Your definition of traitor is all wrong in the modern day. A guy who plays chess against a Russian - he's a traitor and must be hassled about it for years and forever exiled. A guy who sells weapons to Iran after they declare that the USA is the great Satan and must be destroyed - and then gives most of the money to a drug dealer after embezzling a bit for himself - that's a patriot.
If a war starts, US will be on the ground -- economically booted.
Therefore ... china can do practically everything with the US!
E.g.: http://www.studien-von-zeitfragen.net/Zeitfragen/C ollapse_in_2005_/collapse_in_2005_.html
...
The largest buyers of US government debt have been the central banks of the Asia-Pacific. The central banks of Japan and China alone hold more than $1 trillion of US Treasury bonds as foreign currency reserves. Worldwide foreign central banks hold some $1.3 trillion of US government debt. If private debt is added, the United States is the world's largest debtor, with some $3.7 in net foreign debt, as of the start of this year, likely well over $4 trillions by now. In 1980 when Ronald Reagan was elected the US was the world's creditor with a plus of $1 trillion.
It's a funny thing that on one hand the people who determine America's politics, ie. the 'Christian' extremists and the big businesses (and not, as would have been the case in a real democracy the people), have been pushing the largely invalid propaganda that 'China/Russia/... are SO evil' - to the extent that most people in America actually believe this to true; and on the other hand those same people are pushing for increased dependency on and trade with China.
I don't know how, but you guys - the American people - seriously need to open your eyes. I mean, for years you've all agreed that politicians, lawyers, news services and big businesses are totally amoral and will constantly lie to you about anything as long as it serves their purpose; so why do you keep taking that crap? And not only that, you lap it up as if it was the very Gospel itself, and you let it go on and on. How can a country be a democracy if people are not allowed to see enough of the truth to make up their own minds?
Personally I think the basic problem is your extreme, paranoid version of 'capitalism' - it would do all of you good to incorporate some of the ideas of socialism in your society. Look at countries like Denmark, Norway and Sweden - perhaps not the most brilliant stars in the sky, but there's a lot of good there that you simply don't have. You could, however.
Somehow I'm reminded by the comment William R. Trotter made in his book A Frozen Hell. He said:
"Finnish losses in the war were 23.000 dead. If that number seems low, you need to put in in a context. Had USA at the time suffered similar losses, it would have meant losses of over one million men in a war that lasted 105 days".
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
"look at all the Chinese immigrants and china towns in NA"
Yeah, a whopping 0.8% of the population of the United States.
"most people in China would die to go to North America,"
To live here permanently or to work here for a period to earn some money before going home? A relatively easy part of the United States that Chinese often immigrate to is Saipan, and from what I understand most of them go to Saipan to work for a few years and then go home.
(Not that I'm all that fond of the sweatshops in CNMI, mind you.)
"20 year ago the people who learned japanese had the oppertunity to profit big from the growing econemy there. the same applies for China, the business oppertunities you get if you can speak chinese is huge."
Yes, but as we both mentioned, the desire to learn Japanese for "business opportunities" was 20 years ago, and today most people outside of Japan who want to study the language are preteen girls wanting to read manga. Will being able to speak a Chinese dialect really be worthwhile to the general population in 2025, or will the bottom drop out from under the economic powerhouse of the moment and everybody will be scrambling to learn some other obscure language?
China would not "kick America's butt in both a ground war and a nuclear exchange". China has at most 18 ICBMs capable of reaching the continental United States. We have about 10,000 that could reach China, plus a quasi-functional missile defense system. Honestly, we wouldn't need to "win" a ground war. All we'd need to do is bomb all their electric plants, oil and gas pipelines, passes in and out of the country, and mine their harbors. Enforce a blockade and that's the end of that.
Russia and India would "have a fit" but wouldn't do a goddamn thing. Neither of them wants to voluntarily get involved in a nuclear war.
The Rise and Fall of Online Community
Man, you've really got to read the paper more often. Saying China's still communist is kind of like saying America supports free markets. They're more capitalist than we are, for god's sake.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
Decrease is a little vague...unemoployment rate is 1.2% higher than it was 5 years ago. ( reuters.com [reuters.com])
Unemployment is the percentage of people IN THE LABOR FORCE who can't find jobs. Decrease in the labor force as a whole decreases unemployment by reducing the denominator in the equation.
We aren't exactly hurting compared to the average Chinese, especially considering US citizens only spend 6.4% of their income on food (the lowest percentage of reported countries). (Source ific.org). No one has to starve in the USA; tragically there are those who still do, but there is plenty of food and money to go around. It's a resource allocation problem, not a question of affordability.
Resource allocations are always about affordability- if you lower the price of the resource that is in plenty, more people will be able to afford it. And I didn't say that the Chinese government was treating their own people any better; the way this war is being waged it's the little guy who hurts on both sides.
You are probably right here that NEITHER US or Chinese laborers will benefit from a price war...
The war I'm talking about is the American Corporations and the Chinese government against the average populations on both sides. They want slaves who will do their bidding, and are manipulating the laws to provide such.
I was surprised by a great NPR piece on the upcoming Walmart Movie which suggested that Walmart really does do some things to help common laborers like provide a lot of unskilled jobs, cashes a LOT of checkes, and keep the price of consumer goods down. Allbeit US manufacturing is suffering, it's not only Walmart's fault..."Traitor" is uncalled for...The Walton are mid-western American buisness owners, not anti-patriotic communists.
Then why are 9/10ths of the goods they sell bought from the Chinese government? Keeping the price of consumer goods down is stupid too- this country was built on inflation, not deflation. That's undermining the American economy right there. Add to that their daily brainwashing rituals for workers in their stores- and they've learned quite a bit from the Chinese.
Do you know anyone who has been to China in the last couple of years!?!? Things ARE changing...and if the worst part of your war is the exchange of shoddy goods, then you clearly don't have much experience with a "World War". It should conjure images of hollocaust and depraved trench war fare, not poorly made can-openers and long check-out lines.
If things are changing, then why aren't Chinese laborers making $40,000 a year? Slavery is slavery- you've been fooled by cheap goods.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
You are a well spoken hysterical nutcase. There is a big difference between economic dislocation and actual war. Fudging the meaning of war like that is bad semantics. Widespread acceptance of your viewpoint would lead to real troops fighting with real bullets and real people dying.
Economic dislocation SHOULD lead to that. It always has in the past. Only if people die of it will we have a reason to avoid it.
Unfair economic policies can be tackled without resorting to inflammatory rhetoric like "American businesses are traitors".
Really? We haven't been very successful so far. I say, only when the traitors are executed for their crimes will there be justice.
No they are merely making rational choices given the realities created by American trade policy. Want to make them fair? Change the policies so that the rational choices lead to jobs at home.
The traitors are in power- they have all the money, they make the policies, and the democracy has become nothing but a shell government because of it. Only when the traitors have been disposed will we have the freedom to work again.
And China and America are not enemies, but if everyone says it enough they will be.
They already are- you're just too naive to see it.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
You definitely made some good points, that I do agree with. But I also know that they *did* kill students in the square, in addition to the bystanders. And just like the media today, they make the biggest noise about what sells the most papers, not the truth. Is there *anywhere* to look to find it today? Just kinda hammers home the point ... "History is written by the victorious". :(
:)
And yes... it does. I try to step up and hold myself to the same ethics, standards and values that my grandparents and forefathers going back centuries did.... not the sh!t my 'parents' shoved down my throat. I suppose that's why I try to make the best judgements based on the most information possible. And in a BFE military town when I was 16, wasn't exactly to place to find the information...... and definitely something that bides more research. I've been studying the people of China for some time, particularly the rural familial structure and home life. I can only hope that they will find their way to freedom soon. I know it is coming, and I think that Beijing 2008 will have a huge impact on China... much more than they think.
Jho
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
No you corn-flecked turd. I didn't miss a single day of general relativity, or quantum field theory, or QFT in curved spacetimes, thank you very much. BTW, gravity is the only real branch of physics nowadays. You accelerator guys are just studying high-energy CHEMISTRY!!!
:-) You captured the essence of Anonymous Coward-ness perfectly.
Is this the sort of thing you had in mind? I'm quite proud of this post, I just hope it makes it through the lameness filter
Oh yeah.
That's not war. It doesn't even approach the destruction (economic or otherwise) of war. At worst, economic depression. You cannot change the meaning of the word "war" to suit your whims.
Why not? We change definitions of other words all the time. Language evolves.
Funny, that. Looked at the Japanese banking industry lately? Or their economy in general?
They're doing a hell of a lot better than we are- their department of labor doesn't have to lie about the unemployment rate and redefine who's in the labor force to keep it low.
Wha? In the 1930's you could get a car for $500 and a house for $20,000, and damned nice ones at that.
True- but now you'd spend that much just for the right to shoot a deer.
Of course, it's kinda tough to forage for food in the middle of the Dustbowl.
That's why you follow the migrating animals, if you're smart.
No, rational is not playing games with terms and accusations as seirous as "war." That's like calling all diseases "cancer."
What's the root word of rationalization?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
There's no need to fight a land war in Asia.
For one thing, defending an Island against invasion is one of the most efficient forms of warfare there is, and Taiwan has a modern military with which to do the job.
The Chinese government would have to sealift a substantial invasion force which, as I've said couldn't prevail against one or two--let alone five to seven--U.S. carrier groups. Most of the invasion force would be sunk before ground troops were even involved, and the rest would be easily defeated by the Taiwanese forces on the beach.
Where else could China go? Nowhere else by sea, for the same obvious reasons that have prevented them from invading Taiwan.
They could invade the Korean peninsula. Then they'd have to deal with a similar situation (the assault of a choke point--the peninsula itself in this case, rather than the beaches of Taiwan), and they'd be up against another modern army in a strong defensive position. They'd also be susceptible to air strikes, artillery, and cruise missiles during the entire campaign, all courtesy of the U.S. Navy. Again, a difficult proposition, even without involving U.S. ground forces.
They could invade southeast Asia, I suppose. That might be... interesting. But it wouldn't be the end of the world, and it probably wouldn't solve any of their major problems. (It would also, probably, be more trouble than it's worth.)
Eastern Russia seems like their best bet. It's remote, frozen, and thinly defended by a weakening and disorganized Russian government. It's also full of natural resources that China could make much use of in their industrial development.
That's what I expect to see: China and Russia bickering over north-central Asia. It might even involve nuclear weapons. It won't signify a major threat to world peace of stability, though.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Clarification: I was only refering to a land war in Asia if both the Middle East and China situations went out of control at the same time.
Yeah, a whopping 0.8% of the population of the United States. that would be 2.3 million people, and would be 7 percent of all immigrants that are in America right now. and in canada, 20 % of people whos mother tonge is either english or french, are chinese. To live here permanently or to work here for a period to earn some money before going home? normaly someone who immigranted to american legaly in the first place, already have a decent and stable job in China. why would they want to immigrant then? because there is this general ideology in China that in the western countries, especialy Canada and the US, it is easier to make money due to economic freedom and life is better there. However, many chinese immigrants realize, after immigrating, that the life isn't even as good as they thought it would be. the language barrier limits their job opertunities, and many resemes with a Chinese name (such as chang) would sometimes not even be read. So the result of this is a lot of Chinese going back to China in hope to get their old job back. pick a few Chinese immigrants in your community and ask them to compare their job in China and their job now, you will see a huge differece in terms of earnings and stability of the two jobs. Will being able to speak a Chinese dialect really be worthwhile to the general population in 2025 why 2025? why not now? maybe a new language would be the best to learn in the year 2025 for business, but as of now Chinese is the best choice for business. and im pretty sure it doesn't take you 20 years to learn chinese.. just because you consider Chinese as a "fad" doesn't automaticly make it useless, it is still a great asset to have. it's like a stock, if someone told you the stock of one company is going to soar for 20 years but will drop after that, you will still invest in it.
The funniest thing of it all is we paid china to do it by whoring out most of our economy to them just for the sake of greed , stupid politicians and corporations .
The cause is inflation, moreso than greed and corporations. "Stupid politicians" voted for a central bank, to change the U.S. currency from value-based (Gold & Silver) to debt-based. Politicians like a debt-based (fiat) currency, because then they don't need to tax the citizenry to give money to their fellow bandits - they just "print" up a billion dollars and give it to connected organizations (Military-Industrial Complex, Halliburton, Betchtel, etc).
("stupid politicians" is in quotes because I don't know the veracity of the allegation that the Federal Reserve Bank act was passed by a handful of congressmen on December 23rd, when most of the other congressmen had already left. See Response to crticism of The Creature from Jeckyll Island)
Corporations are just fighting for survival... Because of inflation, employees of American manufacturers are forced to demand higher wages. So the manufacturers send out notices that, because their costs are going up, they're going to be charging more. WalMart ("Always Low Prices. Always") says to their suppliers, "Sorry, no can-do - keep your prices the same or we'll go somewhere else. P.S. Why don't you follow us to China?" See PBS Frontline's Is Wal-Mart Good for America? on how they bitchslapped Rubbermaid when the costs for plastic material went up.
This is not "greed" on wal-mart's part, so much as it is fear that their competitors will undercut them.
So, if not stupid politicians & corporations, who's to blame for the destruction of the economy? Well - George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush and John Kerry were all members of Skull & Bones... Bill Clinton was a member of the Bilderberg group (American Free Press is the only American news outlet I know of that reports on Bilderberg). Most of the presidents since the 50's have been a member of Bilderburg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, or Skull & Bones. The push for one-world-government has been going on for over 120 years - these people are dedicated, and this is the end-game. NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, EU, UN - all these entities play a part in dividing up the world into blocks for efficient global governance.
Someone will dismiss what I've said here with "you're just a conspiracy theorist"... Well - think what you want. You're certainly free to believe that you're as free in America today as you would've been 200 years ago. I have no such delusions.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt.
Of course not. The buy the US debt so that they get financial control over your country. Once they a couple $1e12 USD worth of bonds, they have the power to make the country bankrupt, hence they can start dictating what you do.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
I remember a while back the story of a backdoor that someone attempted to install into the Linux kernel that would allow anyone who knew about it root access.
It was caught because of the diligence of the maintainers, but it involved one character of difference. One character.
Do you honestly believe that the NSA doesn't have such backdoors installed in the software produced in the US? How hard would it be to slip something like that in (intentionally or otherwise)?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"It would kick americas butt in both a ground war and a nuclear exchange."
How many nuclear subs does CHina have, and how advanced are they?
How many nuclear subs does the US have, and how advanced are they?
Nulcear is a lose lose for both sides, but your suggestion that China has nuclear dominance is so wrong it's laughable.
The US has nuclear subs that are for all intents and purposes, undetectable. China has nothing that can compete, but they're trying.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"Villianizing China... why???"
Because they act like villains?
No, that couldn't be it...
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"Who are the terrorists:"
I looked REALLY hard, and while it's possible I may have missed it, I didn't see the word terrorist used in any of the reports.
So, my question to you is what purpose can it possibly serve to cry "terrorism"? Why are you clouding the issue?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"rational is something I certainly am not."
It was bound to happen, you actually got something right.
Now, let's generalize that to the rest of your posts.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Jesus, what kind of patriot are you ?
A distributist anti-federalist. I'd be happy if we got rid of the idea of nations altogether- not in favor of a single world government, but in favor of tribalism.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Rational means to relate something to something else. Why are you so stupid?
Rational means whatever you want it to mean. Why are you so tied to a single reality? And why are you so off topic? Or do you think that it's possible to still be a country when Mexico City controls the language taught to our children, China controls our economy and technology, and India sets our immigration policy through the WTO? 'Cause I don't.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.