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Cyber Attacks on US Linked to Chinese Military?
wiredog writes "Security expert Bruce Schneier is reporting on a continuing effort to penetrate US government and industry computer systems that most likely stems from the Chinese military." From the Terranet article: "The attacks have been traced to the Chinese province of Guangdong, and the techniques used make it appear unlikely to come from any other source than the military, said Alan Paller, the director of the SANS Institute, an education and research organization focusing on cybersecurity."
Take, for example this story which includes the quote:
Let's not forget how important our information infrastructures are and how dependent we have been on computers for quite sometime. Let's also not forget common rules of war one of which is cutting off an enemy's supply line ASAP to reduce their cone of influence. A pre-emptive move to "test the waters" of U.S. security by China would not surprise me.
My work here is dung.
Does this sound like another blame game when something bad happens in USA? If they have already traced the source and still couldn't fend it off, I don't know what they would do next, calling President Hu?
These attacks come from someone with intense discipline. No other organization could do this if they were not a military organization
Does this rhyme with "Space exploration is both demanding and dangerous. No other nations could do this if they did not have a space shuttle".
Virtual Betting on Facebook for non-geeks.
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
classic...
Never ask for directions from a two-headed tourist! -Big Bird
Spooky, fun, the cyberwars have begun.
I'm sure Bruce will be modded down as an xenophobic hate monger who writes flamebait.
Never mind that the US does have enemies and those enemies are actively trying to subvert our government, financial markets, and military.
It has become unpopular in the US to think, let alone say, that the Chinese are a communist nation hellbent on defeating us in the long term and that they should be considered the bad guys.
Not your average Chinese citizen of course; but the communist government that lies to and supresses its own people.
As soon as someone says this we hear the "Bush lied, people died" mantra of the lefties who seem to prefer suppressive murderous governments and leaders yet somehow always fail to emigrate to enjoy the lifestyle they seem to hold so dear.
What say you Diane Feinstein? Should we appease the Chinese government? Just license our secrets to the Chinese so at least we could make some money off of them?
This was brought up on my local SAGE mailing list earlier. Someone brought up the good point: Aren't there an awful lot of news stories recently (heck, there've been three on /. in the past few days) villianizing China? Almost as if some large government- or media-induced program is going on to remind us how Evil they are and influence the collective consciousness to be in favor of breaking off relations with the most populous nation on Earth? (Or, to some extreme, treating them like our last Axis of Evil?)
when you shop at WalMart, you support cyber-terrorism.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
so does this mean in the coming information war they are going to use that commie OS, what is it...
Linux, I think it's called?
Bury me in mashed potatoes.
Honestly though why do many servers need to allow access from Chinese computers? Just block them at the firewall and be done with it.
Nice try, China! Your silly attempts to raise yourself to the level of the U.S. will never succeed. The U.S. is the dominant super power and always will be!
Just ask Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!
I'm a big tall mofo.
Are we?
Go kill some commies!!!!
1. How do they know that it's the Chinese Military? It could be a criminal organization.
2. Do you really think that anything really sensitive would be able to be accessed from the Internet?
I've been saying all along that China is a threat- and this is really the third front of WWIII. The first front was China as an economic threat, joined by the WTO and US Retail corporations. The second front was the Islamo-fascist terrorist threat. This is the third front. Do we really have to wait for a fourth front to open up before we get serious and begin fighting this the same way we won WWII?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Have internet controlling body recommend to people not to use Windows OS or during a BIG DOS attack all Windows OS' will be shutoff the network instantly.
I heard a story about these Chinese hackers on the radio, apparently all of the data for the Mars Polar Lander was stolen as well.
Now China is planning on landing men on the moon within 15-20 years......coincidence?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Yes, I'm going to hell for that one.
Posted by: BOFH at December 14, 2005 01:33 PM
HAHAHAHA
http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages. htm
Chinese outnumbers all other languages in the world. I think they're just preparing to take over the internet.
Over the next 20 years the majority of web pages will shift from English to Chinese anyway
it is possible they stole "extremely sensitive" information. I bet they raided the government's pr0n library
Chinese cyber attacks will fill your security logs, but an hour later.......
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Does this, combined with the Air Force's new mission statement, constitute an Act of War?
All of this news, on the heels of the latest admission of "going to war with faulty information" from theWhite House.
The president embraced the decision to go to war - faulty intelligence notwithstanding - as both good and necessary in an age of terrorism.
While conceding lapses in American intelligence - "It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong" - he said that intelligence agencies of other countries had come to similar conclusions, and that in any event the United States' information-gathering apparatus was being retooled.
(well put) And don't forget Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, the Italian city-states of the Renaissance, the Mongolian Empire, Rome, Persia, Alexander's Macedonia... shall I go on?
Quantum mechanics: the dreams that stuff is made of.
The Chinese government, in particular, sees its reliance on Microsoft as a potential threat.
Absolutely, and if you purchase a Lenovo laptop (formerly IBM Thinkpad division, sold to the Chinese government), you had better be worried about what may be inside.
As an IT auditor for community banks, I consistently encounter rogue traffic in NIDS and IDS logs originating from Chinese networks. Yesterday I had the unusual experience of tracing a SSH bruteforce back to a school district - unusual in that it's normally a governmental network, not some compromised system at a business or school.
I would suggest that the hostile behavior of the Chinese government combined with their position on treating US IT vendors as providers of "enemy technology" should say it loud and clear to IT managers and auditors. If I see a Lenovo in an audit site, I'll certainly raise the concern.
And the Americans are not doing the same to the Chinese?
I would have been shocked if this was not going on in both directions - in dozens of directions for that matter.
I'm going to stop short of crying "Dupe!" but the articles linked were posted a few months ago:
4 5245&tid=172&tid=123&tid=219
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/28/17
US calls China out on its hacking game. This comes months after China is said to be training elite teams of hackers.
Chinese government gasps and says, "WE'RE trying to hack you? You must be mistaken. We would never attack the US! It must be those pesky rogue agents and splinter cells. The ones that we're still funding and paying. China's a big country, you know? We can't really control all 12 billion of our citizens. Never mind that the hackers are using a dual OC-3 with state-of-the-art equipment so advanced that our citizens could never even afford to look at it. We're deeply sorry. Whats that? Millions of bank accounts transferred to China? We're so sorry..we'll work our hardest to get this situation resolved. Oh, and we're building a new aircraft. We call it the C-22. It kind of looks like your F-22..."
Don't tell me it isn't already happening on a small scale.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Look at all of your presents from "Santa"(or anyone else) this year, and find out where they are made!
Hmh, this beeing Slashdotage I for a moment got all burned up by my latent imperialistic whorshipping latencies,,, Just ak Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!
But then I saw the light, and you where just kidding. Oh my God, you must be a terrorist!
PS You forgot Rome, among many others ;-)
If this can be proven, this is an act of war. Tell me again why China has Most Favored Nation status? WWIII seems close at hand.
What should be checked here is this :
- If the attack is not a joke, is it a kind of sneak peak, are the hacker testing vulnerabilities ?
- Because if I were a Chinese military trying something against US I would not test defenses like that, as the result would be a system harder to attack next time. In Chinese words, I would not Beat The Grass To Startle The Snake in this case of figure.
- If I were an US hacker trying to prevent my country from being cyberattacked, I would do sneak peaks now, to increase US network's "immune system".
- Therefore, if it's not a joke, and a real attack from Chinese military, then it's serious ! Cover yourselves !
(It could be some young geeks in Guangdong having fun, though...)
Just ask anyone involved in the free Tibet movement or any of the ISP's that host websites with the words free Tibet, they used to get massive attacks from DOS right through to serious and well planned attempts to hack these sites. Spent an entire week assisting the fending off of one of these and having to rebuild a server after the attack got through with it.
what, by funding the Russians so they can sacrifice an uncountable number of soldiers until the Chinese surrender? I don't think that's going to work... they have more men than the German's did, a lot more. Plus, the Russians are already getting their asses handed to them by the Islamics like for the past twenty some years. This plan would only make sense if we could somehow convince the Chinese to sacrifice their huge male population to the Islamic world... and considering that much of the Chinese held territory is a prime boiling point for jihad this plan just might work.
Get China to fight the jihadists. Win that war and then bankrupt China so we don't have to pay them back for all of our home mortgages and consumer debt. Might work.
That's probably later on your list. But it surprised me when I learned that at the height of the Egyptian empire, Ethiopia had a HUGE empire too. That's why when Moses came back and said to the Pharoh, "I bring frinds from the South." He was smart enough to make friends with them because the Ethiopians would probably have kicked their asses. The reason it surprised me is that now, I have this image of a third world country where everyone is starving to death - NOT a super power.
I find this whole thing hard to believe as China appears to want to buddy up with the rest of us. However, insofar as getting pissed at them and their whack-ass government, it should be taken into consideration that there may be disorganization and power struggles within the Chinese government and military and that, like in the game of telephone, the order from the top might be "Install Debian on all military servers" and the suspects mishearing it as "Hook up those pre-blaster patched boxes to use for the firewall." And even if President Jiang Zemin did greenlight (greenlit?) this, we should forgive him, and then persuade them to make sure Debian's on all their boxes. Forgiveness should be granted if Jiang Zemin decrees that all fifteen computers (or however many citizens can afford one) must run Debian.
By the way, what do the Chinese call their fancy dishware?
At what point does prudence become paranoia?
And, why am I making my posts rhetorical questions?
what would brian boitano do??
I wish they'd hack my mortgage company and reduce my principal!
Crying "Peace" - what purpose can it possibly serve to alert the media that attempts are being made? Who are the terrorists: Those attempting entry, or those publicizing the attempts? Or is some group setting up an attempt at justifying some potential action?
Peace, please.
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
I guess they found a chink in our security. :-)
:)
Just kidding, folks
Face it. Go to any US store and see 90% plus of the stuff is made in ...China. Why the heck do we still trade with them if they are so overtly *not* our friends? Hmm, big-bucks business pays off the political heroes to shut up, etc... and WalMart (et al)'s policy is likely now set by Beijing. Nice mess. Vote with your pocket book this shopping season - don't go and help restock China's coffers with cash. Yes, YOU! And YOU, and YOU...
As a European I can gleefully inform you that we will be keeping logs for a lot longer than that :S
liqbase
I was really surprised by the whole energy of the place. When I went to McDonalds and they didn't have my food immediately, they said no problem we will find you and bring it to you when its ready. 2 min latter I had my fries. This particular McDonald's had around 30 registers all open. They said that they served 6000 lunches everyday -- just nuts. You won't find any fast food resturant in the US that can manage that volume and provide good service too.
The only downside was all the street vendors, which annoyed our tour guide. She said that they all had day jobs, but would often call in sick to go run side businesses to make extra money.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
Hmmm... could give new meaning to RED Hat... since they hate MS almost as much as Massachusetts.
It isn't the Chinese!
Everyone knows that the Chinese could shut down the U.S. military by mailing a baker's dozen fingercuffs to the Commander in Chief and the War Cabinet.
Can't push the nuke button without use of your fingers, can you?
Tons of scans and pen attempts have been coming out of the Guangdong Province for years. Funny thing is if you trace the scan back to the IP admin and etc... you can often Google the names listed as contacts and find they are linked to Chinese IW...
This is not big news IMO just a resurfacing of info that has been seen before... (FUD for new book sales maybe?)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
I say, nuke the commies! Korea - either, and China. Save Cuba because once Castro is gone, it'll be a nice place to visit.
Damn Yankee!
You mean the White House along with all of the Democratic leadership. Oh, but that was when the war was popular. Start thinking for yourself and stop following the "Thumb in the air to see which way the wind blows" left.
Sorry people, but China is growing at such an 'alarming' rate that it represents a clear and present threat to the United States. China outnumbers us by approx. 4:1 and they are smart - very smart. The government is corrupt and a lot of innocent (poor) people within China are suffering as a result on a daily basis. I don't have anything against the Chinese people, but I sure do not want their government start excerting more control over our lifes and our economies. On a pure economical basis, this whole 'globalization' business is ruining small (and large) businesses all over the planet - they just cannot compete. That's the way the cookie crumbles however and we cannot turn back the clock and will have to deal with that or at least wait until the cost of living in China approaches that common in the West.
Politically, China scares the jibbers out of me and we need to be smart not to hand the reigns over to them. Things are going to get ugly as we are increasingly experiencing a raw materials and fossile fuel shortage in the coming decades.
I have been following this for some time.
This is not the first time this story has appeared on Slashdot. The last time it did (last year, I think), it covered a person who had traced the attacks back as far as China and gave some basic information about the methods and types of attacks. Also there is some reason to think that some military systems have indeed been penetrated and such items as flight control software stolen.
My own suspicion is that you have some sort of DMZ from which these attacks are occurring. You have a number of people stationed in shifts around the clock logging into these systems (possibly remotely) and using them for the attacks. There is plenty of reason to suspect the Chinese military here. These are not defacement attempts but are pretty surgical attempts at military data theft. This means organized crime (terrorist or not) and military are your only major suspects. The military is more likely the purpetrators given not only the specific type of data being targetted but also the Chinese Gov't's general unwillingness to cooperate with an investigation.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
What's the point of calling it a blame game? They've traced a major effort to attack systems to a specific location, and are now publicly stating that it's coming from China. I'll grant you the way they worded the "no other organization could do this" part was folly, but it's completely fair to say it's coming from China if it is. The Chinese government and military should take swift action to put an end to it whether it's them or not. That's a perfectly fair assertion, and failure to act in this case is nearly as malicious as being the perpetrator.
I have always thought that our growing debt would make a good reason for our leaders to consider war. Has to be better than he made fun of my daddy.
LIVE, Love, die
While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, my firewall logs are constantly filled with hack attempts originating from our Chinese cyber-neighbors. What I'd be interested to know is whether these are concentrated attacks (most do not seem to be) or whether China's tenancy towards software piracy has become a problem for them. Would it surprise anyone if many widely-circulated, Chinese-pirated copies of Windows XP were pre-infected with trojan rootkits? In that case the botnets would be deployed from the moment the OS was installed. That being said, the responsibility ultimately lies with them either way.
Working in a DevOps shop is like playing in a band made up entirely of keytarists.
Who even cares about some little "cyberattacks"? Our annual trade deficit is pushing a trillion dollars per year. For good or bad, that's what will even out the global balance of power.
..hundreds of thousands of students, tourists, technicians and businessmen spread out all over the western world. Now, run the odds of how many of them can be persuaded or are already prepared to "fight for the homeland", especially if they have relatives back home. They don't need to be in china to have web access. You'd have to blacklist the entire net to deny them access. And that's just cyber warfare, there are a number of other options available to them for assymetrical warfare.
In the 50s, 60s, and 70s, thousands of American soldiers died in an effort to stop the threat of Chinese communism. Today, China is one of our top trading "partners". What has changed? China is still one of the worst human rights violators, and routinely abuses its neighbors (Taiwan and Tibet). In trading terms, China is probably our most abusive partner. Any project done in China must also have any related side projects completed there. China also devalues their currency, further imbalancing trade.
The China situation probably pisses me off more than any single other issue. Its an issue where both parties are on the same side; the side of profit-whoring multinationals that have no problem selling out American workers and small business and buddying up to the rights-abusing monster that is the Chinese govt.
Because it make good economic sense?
I say we just upload a Romulan virus. That'll learn em.
Quack, quack.
...we've put all our "eggs into one basket" WRT virtually *all* PC (and PC-server) hardware now solely being manufactured by red china.
If a war with China breaks out, the US will suddenly not be able to support it's own computer infrastructure needs anymore. This is a hideously dangerous situation to be in. America needs to start right away at making itself capable of once again manufacturing internally all the computer hardware it would need for critical national security and economic interests.
Don't have my copy of William Gibson's novel handy, but I seem to recall that one of the objectives the AI had for the team was to steal some Chinese "ICE" out of some sort of highly secure repository.
I'm not sure what kind of Einstein would post a racist comment about asians on a blog frequented by tech geeks, but even if you don't care about racism you've gotta add this guy to your Foes list just for his sheer stupidity alone.
I have been worried for a long time about the apparent naivete of the U.S. government and military regarding the Chinese.
The Chinese government and military are extremely savvy so long as they are not blinded by their communist dogma. When it comes to trade, information, spying, and weapons technology, they understand the reality that those who play fair lose.
If you are a businessman, have no illusions that your papers and files are safe in your hotel room in China. There have been documented cases of government-sponsored spies following businessmen and bugging or entering their hotel rooms to scour their belongings for useful trade secrets and intellectual property.
We can see clearly that they are pursuing a strategy of mercantilism in trade, to our great disadvantage, thanks to the cluelessness of free-traders in Congress and the White House.
Who can doubt that the same issues exist with regard to sensitive military information? The Chinese sponsor students to come to the U.S. with the express goal sometimes of infiltrating research staffs and supplying tech info back to China. The same surely occurs with U.S. government and military employees, although the screening is more thorough.
In my opinion, the CHinese government would see hacking U.S. government or military sites as a requirement for successful international competition. Hopefully, the NSA and others like them are on top of the problem. I don't doubt, though, that they have gained access to lots of systems on the lower end of the confidentiality spectrum.
It needs to be impressed on people in government, military, and intelligence work, that the Chinese are playing one mean game of chess in everything they do vis-a-vis the U.S. Their sense of time spans centuries and millennia rather than decades. Any suspicious activity on their part needs to be treated with the greatest skepticism by our guys, rather than with apathy or giving them the benefit of the doubt...
There's probably been a report issued in China about the attempts by the US military to crack their networks, but it probably got filtered by the Great Firewall of China.
Yes, we understand these tags always apply: fud, dupe, typo, slashdotted, topic name
Try admining a website in Canada that's visibly critical of a right wing provincial government (ie the curent government of BC). Same thing. It's really funny when you can easily track them back to places like the Vancouver Board of Trade.
The American vision of ultra modern future: high speed trains and efficient McDonalds.
I, for one, welcome our new Chinese overlords.
Logic and people like this are the reason I abandoned "security world" (which I loved, and was there for 15 years).
No, this has nothing to do with "we need more marketing and sales - let's use some big words" (SANS is profitable org, you know). No. Not at all.
They simply have such 3l33t connections and t00lz and t3chniques which can uncover (and trace and bust) any hax0r.
This have NOTHING to do with China's economic/IT explosion and deployment of countless boxes (which can't all be secured) in short timeframe. Heaven for bouncing.
We haven't seen this before with South Korea (which had Gigabit links to everywhere when most of the world could dream about it). No.
These are military hax0rs, really. Because attacks come from China.
And SANS was first to find it out.
Oh, look at these training/course offers we have...
those ARPANET hits were coming from! I kid you not... *fires up webalizer* Hits: 332 KBytes: 422 Files: 186 Country: Old style Arpanet (arpa)
'nuff said.
Hey, not every Chinese person is named Ho!
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
I think you missed the point of the parent post. It seemed to be pointing out that countries that are on top (like Britain and France at one time) generally do not stay there for very long.
EOM
hacked by chinese
... by the Chinese military. In an out, no key errors or fingerprints -- a story posted once again without the editors having the slightest idea it was happening. Scary as hell.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
With a-very small penis. How can we hope to defeat you Americans with your mastodonic penis. Our penis is a-so small, so small.
The media has been exceedingly eager to portray China in a positive light. It's not surprising considering American and European companies all have moist panties over China.
No one has any principles. The US is willing to tolerate anything in order to get the advantage economically. And Europe is doing exactly the same thing, in fact, in some cases they're going to greater extremes, going as far as selling advanced military hardware to China.
Hell, even Taiwan, the renegade province is investing heavily in China. Taiwanese citizens are going nuts over the booming market there. Countless, some friends of mine included, if they haven't already started doing business over there are seriously considering doing so.
It's possible that by the time China becomes truly influential they may have changed their ways, but I'm not holding my breath.
The bigger danger is if the bubble bursts. The vast majority who are already living in poverty are going to be even worse off, and many in the middle class are going to lose everything they have. Needless to say everyone will start to blame the government. The leadership will have to rally the people in order to distract them from the real problem. I predict the first thing they'd do is invade Taiwan. Then we'll see some real fireworks.
I think China will lose some of its steam once nations start seriously investing in alternatives like India. Unfortunately, I think the US has lost a lot of the drive it once had. That's something China seems to have a lot of; their citizens still manage to have pride in their nation. It's certainly excessive sometimes but it also helps the country excel.
You could wish their current (and continuing) administration to have learned (well, something) from the previous administrations mistakes. To say communism is outright bad is ignorant. Its like blaming God (and I know some people do) or religions for all the bad interpretations people make of them.
And as far as human rights go I don't think the US has a leg to stand on right now. Tiananmen Square like a big FUCK YOU to the world, to divergent ideologies, etc. Guantanamo Bay or the unintentional results due to the use of white phosphorus in Falluja aren't signs of a government suddently gone wild. We've been violating basic human rights for ages, we've just done it more diplomatically.
Sorry for the ramble. I just feel like for all our best intentions in time men will find means to erode high-standing ideals for a little bit of personal gain. We want so much.
Quack, quack.
Jeebus, I had no idea there were so many slashdotters on this board pining for the good ol days of the Red Menace. Must be a bitch living in constant fear from the boogymen in the east. Pathetic.
BTW, the captcha word for this post is *incest*. HUH?!
What are you talking about? The train wreck? You're somehow linking the U.S. to a brutal, censorship-laden dictatorship in China with a conspiracy theory? Surely you're not serious. But then again, half of the leftist slashdotters here believe the U.S. is a "dictatorship" and that we're the root of all evil and whatnot, so go ahead and mod this post "troll" :(
Check out DenyHosts: http://denyhosts.sourceforge.net/
It will protect your ssh server from evil hackers.
Given what information has been publically available on this set of attacks for the last year, it looks to me like China is doing their best to steal military technology from the US as a way of helping to even the balance of power in the world. This would also fit with the known cases of espionage in recent decades.
Lets face it. If it came to a land war in China, we would not stand a chance. Similarly if China were to invade the US (which they have little reason to), they would not stand a chance even if the technology favored them as much as it favors us today. But what China cannot do is effectively influence South-East Asia as a massive power broker without modernizing their military. The US is the dominant power in that part of the world, with Australia and China trailing distantly.
This game of global military politics is far more subtle than it appears. This hardly means war is iminnant. It just means that China is attempting to build their military up to the point that they can protect their sphere of influence (and maybe someday reunify with Taiwan).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I bet they're all running RED Hat! Ha!
Sorry, that was terrible.
...Cyber Attacks You (Ess Ay)!
Us..its all our fault. We are the ones that backed globalization. Now we must reap what we sow....
Hand over the reigns man, are you serious?
...or maybe you're insane.
First, the argument that an attack is disciplined thus it must be the national military is just plain stupid -- and I frequently agree with Bruce S.
Even then, how is this not anticipated? Governments spy on each other (and their own citizens) prolificly, even their allies. We do it, they do it. European countries and the US are constantly one-upping each other in government sponsored corporate espionage. The Internet's done nothing but created a new medium. We steal corporate and military secrets from them, and they from us. Big deal.
The fact is that this means nothing. We know how to prevent this from being a problem, we do it, and we even disseminate disinformation this way.
The Iraq boondoggle aside, countries are actually very good about researching each other. There's a level of transparency between nations that is completely hidden to the average citizen. I think that everyone understands that at some level. The problem is, of course, that the public understanding of geopolitics is quite different than that of world leaders and the intelligence community. China could be an invasion threat, or on the verge of a dramatic shift to democracy and becoming our (USA) 51st state -- but, honestly, how many people are privileged enough to have access to sufficient information to make that call? Almost certainly not you.
By avoiding transparency, governments can avoid accountability to their citizens and other nations. That lack of accountability makes people easy to assuage, makes governments appear artificially effective, etc. In the US we demand little transparency because making information available puts us at risk (so the logic goes). Thus, by simply augmenting the perception of risk (nwes about terrorists, spies, etc.), people will lower their accountability demands, enabling more flexibility for things probably not in the public interest.
Of the top 100 economic powers in the word, 52 are corporations, and 48 are countries. About 1/3rd of goods transferred over a national border are goods that don't transfer ownership because they stay within a multinational corporation that is internally transferring those goods). It seems that some good geopolitical FUD can make you richer than Croesus if you're an inside player in the game.
I call this bullshit
Any person with some knwoledge of international relationships knows the Chinese don't want to step on other nations feet.... yet. In fifty years, when their economic and military buildup is completed, yes, maybe. Now? Unlikely.
Repeat after me: We are all individuals
These are called entrepreneurs. They are not dependent on a government job. They are not happy being dependent on the whim of another person to employ them. These people work to build the economy, and, through such work, their country. These people do not complain that a military base is closing and therefore the governmental gravy train is leaving.
However, the other points are correct. The trade deficiet in the US was around 70 billion in october. This is only a deficiet in products, as the foriegn loans and investments probably far ouweigh this number. Asia loans us money, then we use the money to buy their goods. We could make the goods ourselves, but we could not earn enough, or find anyone to loan us enough money, to keep our current lifestyle.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
It's never hack from home. Now, even if the Chinese are actively trying to .gov or .mil. I'm pretty sure so called
hack us, (why not, I am sure it's not just them and I'll bet money we are doing
it too), why would they source an attack from their primary location? Even if
the "attacks" are coming from there, that doesn't mean it's the Chinese. It
could be an American or British kid who took over a box there. And I gotta
tell you, if it were me, I would bounce my traffic around the world twice
before I even took a look at a
"military trained" hackers backed by the Chinese government could and would
have far more resources and could cover their tracks better than that. If it
were me, I would have all the attacks sourced from Britian or Iserail, or some
other friendly US ally. Color me suspicious.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
STEEE-RIKE!!!
sarcasm -------->
O
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/ \
you
From your second paragraph (the first one quoted above), it appears we've already figured out what to do to cause harm to them.
American corporations will not stand for being refused entry to a market encompassing a sixth of the world's population. This pressure began to build in the seventies and has only increased. This is the determining factor in all US/China dialogue.
illegitimii non ingravare
Red Flag GNU/Linux ... no really it is. *grin*
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
What will happen when china wants to reclaim that debt?
After spending 30 minutes reading this entire discussion I think the original message was lost.
I can say I see IP addresses from China attempting to hack away at servers.
Why not just block the whole bunch of IP addresses coming from China? That will get their attention right quick.
Forget WWIII. At least for another decade. The economies are indeed too dependant on each other. Besides, the end of days will be over fresh water, not fossil fuels.
Nuke em? Now how will I be able to buy my stuff at Walmart then? Everything sold there is made in ChinaVille.
See everyone there is nothing to worry about... Instead of hireing US hackers to test their networks they oursourced the job to Chinese hackers.
Second china is not an iraq or vietnam. It would kick americas butt in both a ground war and a nuclear exchange. Massive losses for the chinese sure, but so what? Not like they are going to run out.
Third russia would have a fit.
Fourth India would have a fit.
Fifth non-commercial blokkade would suit the chinese just fine. Less capatalist propaganda to filter out. It is not like South Africa were the majority of the population were against the boycotted goverment.
No it is just bash the chinese time in the media, next month it will be the EU's turn.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Duh! Don't use Microsfot then
I assure you that the prosperity you saw in Hong Kong had nothing to do with it's former status as a part of the British Empire, what with all the capitalism and such.
As for the US' being a third-world country, you're immediately wrong by definition, even if you are still using outdated cold-war terminology, since the US was first-world by definition. Regardless, the US' GDP per capita (in 2004) comes in at a lowly $40,100 compared to China's $5,600. That puts China at 121st in the world, vs. 2nd for the US. Please open your ass and remove your head.
Just a script? or Chinese military
Just because someone knows what they are doing, does not mean they are military.
When do the military actually know what there doing.
IMHO, It just those pesky aliens having a laugh with "spooky action at a distance."
"The economies are indeed too dependant on each other."
The same was said about Britain and Germany in 1913.
That's it. It's time for someone to start a distributed computing something or other that I can donate my spare CPU cycles to and help defend my own country. Crack codes, smoke terrorists out of their caves, crunch simulations, calculate trajectories, whatever. Just sign me and my spare PII-300MHz up. Seriously.
Apparently you've never been to McDonald's in Midtown Manhattan!
http://www.worldsoccerbars.com
"In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running"
Scary. Our dominance after the world war 2 was largely due to the fact that we were a creditor nation.
HAHA
Mission accomplished. This web site was created in China, as a means to keep you from working. All this activity has lowered productivity in the U.S. Keep on chattin.Definitely any growing influence needs to be watched but there are "natural" forces that check anyone from rising too far. Look how scary the Japanese economy was in the 1980s -- remember movies like 'Gung Ho' that played on our fears? Here's some reasons why China will plateau before ruling the world: 1. Their main global economic value currently is cheap labor. But their standard of living is rising quickly and salaries are growing. Many, in the cities, have cars and big screen televisions. They won't be cheap for much longer -- in fact they're starting to outsource to Vietnam! 2. Their banking system is flawed, and their corporations are rife with corruption. They will experience a major economic crisis similar to the "economic flu" that hit the other Asian tiger countries. Major scandals will be unveiled, big corporations will default on loans, and the whole house of cards will fall down. 3. Political turmoil. As the social disparity increases, they will get inundated with protests and strikes like any other modern industrial country. 4. Infrastructure problems. 5. Energy and water supply problems. 6. Pollution problems. Don't mistake their transient success of five years with a prolonged dominance.
Don't blindly trust anything.
I believe most American are good, so are most Chinese.
We want peace.
I'd like to comment on one of the trackback links from the article (http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/202) and request that fellow Linux users avoid making comments like "This just proves you should switch to Linux."
Without getting into a discussion about whether or not Linux is inherently more secure than any other platform I want to point out that if the Linux community is always loudest after news like this it will leave a bad taste in the mouths of potential new adopters.
This may be off topic but I think it's an important point to think about in regard to security in general. We (the technologically inclined) should be trying to help our community (all computer users) to be more secure without trying to force our own agenda down their throats.
While I don't approve of this method of cutting corners on R&D the Chinese are doing nothing that the US hasn't done in the past and still is doing today, and not just to nations that could be a potential threat either. The USA also spies on it's own allies and that includes abusing base rights and surveillance assets, supposedly there to be used for the benefit of NATO defense, to conduct industrial espionage on other NATO nations. The US has even used these assets to commit occasional acts of economic sabotage, a famous example would be the Saudi Arab airliner deal that Boeing managed to snatch away from Airbus with Uncle Sam's help. Not that I'm complaning mind you, we Europeans are not exactly angels either and the whole Airbus mess did have two positive results. Firstly we now know that we can't even trust our friends in the USA as far as we can throw them (a lesson they are now slowly learning them selves, in reverse, so to speak) and secondly many corporations here now take communications security more seriously than the military. Judging from the way it has been chewing away at Boeing's market share Airbus certainly seems to have learned it's lesson.
The price of peace is eternal vigilance.... even your friend will stab you in the back to butter his own slice of bread.... learn the lesson, go on and get over it.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
High quality goods are a lot less expensive in China. Many of the new shopping malls in China have over twice the square footage as the pentagon. Though they make less money it goes farther. Also comparing GDP per person doesn't work well when the ratio is on the order of 4:1. When you factor the change in working population the China's GDP per person isn't bad. With the growth rate of a conservative %8, the GDP per person in China will double in 10 years, making them the number one player. A number one player with a much lower payroll that goes farther.
On the other hand, visit a normal Chinese school where they go to the bathroom in plastic pails and see the forbidden city in the winter when you can't even see a mile because the gray haze from all the coal they burn is so thick. Remember, Chinese tourism is state run. They MIGHT. Just MIGHT. Be showing you what they want you to see.
I do security
Isn't that the place with an appauling human rights record ?
Things like imprisonment without trial , torture and censorship .
http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/hig hlights/top/top0510.html#imports
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/pro duct/enduse/imports/c5700.html
The air is certainly on the thick side. So is the traffic -- it made LA, DC and NY traffic look thin, well not quite thin, just not as bad.
You mean other countries, spy on us??!!!! People seem to think this is surprising, new, or uncommon.
I do security
Is this the war Rumsfeld wanted?
Retired from software... maybe. Sort of.
Code Red Option: 'Hacked By Chinese' OR Recent news option: 'lol, no this is not the chinese'
The whole time I was there I felt like I was moving inside a dome. It was honestly like the realization of the fog of war in a Warcraft game.
I do security
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We're an Army-sponsored engineering research group that already worries about this. Just take a look at the China Journal of System Simulation for an amazing look at China's emerging technological dominance.
URL: http://www.china-simulation.com/esite/preview/05-0 5.htm n ew_0035.html
Graphic: http://courses.washington.edu/goodall/MRFM/whats_
As the graphic says, "open strategic advantage (OSA) strategies are easy to understand, impossible to stop, and yield global strategic advantages". Or as China's books on business strategy say: "Deceive the sky, to cross the ocean."
Don't forget, if it hadn't been for Britain, the U.S. wouldn't have won WW2, which everyone knows started in 1943 - Fuck off you stupid american wankers!
"The attacks have been traced to the Chinese province of Guangdong, and the techniques used make it appear unlikely to come from any other source than the military, said Alan Paller, the director of the SANS Institute, an education and research organization focusing on cybersecurity. To go into details, the attack on U.S. military IT infrastructure was conducted by delivering physical force to the U.S. Air Force main router, by a precisely timed jump of an estimate 2 million chinese which was transmitted by waves through the Earth core such that a peak was created at the U.S. router. In China, only the military is believed to own so many precise clocks to orchestrate such an attack."
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
The United States makes too much money off of China and vice versa for either country to go to war with each other. Taiwan and the rest are meaningless. Money talks, people. Why would you active seek to destroy a country that is the mainstay of your economy (that goes for both China and the US)?
... They detected the attack because they 've found a Ruby Script on ther nuclear weapons server. :-P
I got the impression that China's biggest fear was it's own people; and rightly so, there are a lot of them. From an arm-chair-quarter-back perspective, I think that as long as they can maintain prosperity, the masses will be appeased, which is what the Chinese government wants. Full employment is probably there number one goal -- it should be ours too.
Hmm, now there's an idea. DDoS a british company with the intent of creating massive log files that they have to figure out what to do with.
Some will never believe it. Some right here on slashdot. And they'll point to what the US is supposedly doing without any facts to back them up. Or bring up Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, or whatever the flavor of the day is in protest of the day.
Ask someone you know directly that works in security in the tech department of any major Wall Street financial firm. The Chinese military has been attacking and trying to gain entry to those servers for years. It's a daily event. You can even figure out when they take a break to eat or for whatever reason. It's very coordinated, precise, low-key and disciplined, just like the article states. Very often this is a reason for working past 4-5pm at these firms, due to a sustained, directed attack in an attempt to penetrate the financial firm's defenses.
This doesn't get any press because which securities/financial firm is going to publicize this and then still be able to ask for and get your money to invest?
If you know anyone who works for tech, with security training, in the security part of the tech department, for one of these financial/securities firms, they are the ones to ask what goes on.
Okay, okay. This is going to sound a LOT like yet another one of the innumerable mindless, inflammatory anti-Microsoft rants out there, but please, hear me out, okay?
Two years ago, according to several sources including Computer World - the story may also have been covered here - Microsoft gave China access to the entirety of the Windows operating system source code. This was part of a so-called 'Government Security Program', which would allow governments and international political and military organizations to supposedly build stronger security systems and firewalls. This is nothing new, I know. Microsoft has shared the Windows source code with people before. The difference here is that they are handing it directly to a governmental entity, possibly including governments that percieve the United States as an enemy or a threat. Other participants in the GSP include the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the United Kingdom, and Russia. Microsoft had been in talks with other 30 nations and other parties at the time the article I've referenced was written. (I'm afraid I'm strapped for time, so I can't exactly do more research at the moment to find out who the other 30 are.)
This sounds interesting, and I'd actually buy this GSP garbage if it wasn't for the fact that the agreement states that these governments can't modify or recompile the source code themselves. Either Microsoft's head honchos are really naive, or they're counting on us being just as stupid. Anyone with half a brain can understand just how much power that source code can grant you. With it, you have the ability to know every security hole - intentional or otherwise - that exists in the Windows operating system, which to this day powers a vast majority of the computers in the world. That code, which is closed to us commoners, could easily be percieved not as a security tool - who wants to use Windows for security? - but rather, as a weapon. The GSP, I theorize, was most likely a cover for a program that likely netted Microsoft a great deal of money and a lot of international government support... Honestly. China? They'd have to be braindead to think that China wouldn't use this power against us.
Admittedly, we have the same power, and we've probably had it for longer, too. This doesn't make us safer, though, if it's sealed up inside some vault somewhere, not being used to fix the security holes in Windows that plague many home users and businesses. Now we're acting surprised that China, after the fact, is training an elite team of hackers? This isn't a surprise, it's the NEXT LOGICAL STEP. That'd be like a soldier standing on Normandy Beach in 1944 saying, "Okay, I'm in the middle of a battle. I could use this here rifle to, yaknow, pick off some of these yay-hoos shootin' at me, but... Eh, I think I'll go after 'em with my combat knife instead." *HUMILIATION* So what now? China has the one weapon in the world that can actually rival the destructive and disruptive power of a nuclear weapon without even a fraction of the mess. They have the source code of the most popular and one of the least secure operating systems today, along with who knows what else. Of COURSE they're going to start attacking us. They don't LIKE us.
So what does this make Microsoft? Like I said before, are the head honchos of Microsoft really that amazingly, impossibly stupid, or have they been passing out source code to our enemies - source code that they refuse to give to virtually anyone else outside of a partner in business or an Ivy League university program - for a while now? As far as I know, the manner in which they handle the source code they give out to business partners and educational institutions is extremely strict. I've only heard of one partial leak ever occurring, and wasn't the person responsible for it found pretty quick? Anyway... Okay, here's China, saying "Microsoft Windows is a threat and a vulnerability," source code in hand, training a team of elite hackers to launch coordinated attacks against U.S. interests... Can we hold Microsof
The total population of the planet Earth is 6,446,131,400 as of July 2005. 1,306,313,812 of which belongs to China, and 1,080,264,388 to India with the Europian Union running a long third at 456,953,258 and the United States running an even longer fourth at 295,734,134. The total available monetary assests of the planet Earth is $55,500,000,000,000 US. 11,750,000,000,000 of which belongs to the United States with the European Union running a close second at $11,650,000,000,000 and China running a long third with $7,262,000,000,000. India ranks in at fith with a modest GDP of $3,319,000,000,000. The United States ranks 157th on the birth rate chart with 14.4. China comes in at 164th with 13.14. What does all this mean? It means that most of the wealth of this world is owned by the United States and European Union. That's GDP people. Solid wealth PRODUCTION. China dose'nt even hold a candle. With the world opening into a global free market, this MUST change. What we are seeing is the begining of a global wealth re-distribution. Unfortunatly for us here in the U.S. that means those that have will loose, and those that don't have will gain. It will be a crash for us, and a major boon for the Earth as a whole. After it all balances out in a couple of hundred years. It is unfortunate, but I don't see the rich people of the world loosing any of their money in this redistributino of wealth. In fact, I see the rich getting massivley richer, the poor getting a little bit richer, and the middle of the road disapearing almost entirley. In a couple of century's mind you.
'Hacked by America'
This was 4 years ago or so, their mysql database allowed me to login as 'root' w/ no password.
If their software vendors don't understand how to secure their own web site, how are they going to secure their own OS's?
good luck, redfag!
beaten-up jewish guy: We survived the Romans! And where are they now?!.
Tony Soprano: You're lookin' at 'em.
But the assault on the Branch Davidian compound happened on Bill Clinton's watch. As a liberal, it's not appropriate for you to question the Clintons' actions or motives. Mark Rich was innocent. Vince Foster killed himself because he was depressed. He wasn't murdered because the Clinton's shady Arkansas real-estate dealings were holding up the blind trust paperwork, and he was starting to crack under pressure when he realized that he was about to be thrown to the wolves. Bill and Hillary's marriage is not a sham maintained solely so they can avoid the political stigma of divorce.
Oooh ooh don't even get me started on 2+2=4!!! *begins foaming around the mouth* ;) j/k
:)
:) (blame it on the CRTs and lights if you wish)
Yes Slashdot is amazing and so is the real world too, it's absolutely astonishing how little it takes to get a lot of people totally and senselessly hysterical (not riled up --although that's easy as pie too-- but plain hysterical). There are some measured responses in this thread but they seem few and far between (at least among those modded positively).
Anyway, nice AC's are the color green and mean AC's are the color yuck
Onto the topic: just about any country will try a little bit of hacking "now and then" (i.e. as much as they can get away with) and no it's not necesarily the same as war, actually often it can be the exact opposite of war (NRO, NSA & unnamed seldom start wars & regularily avoid them afaik and that process is not a one-way street). Might also be wise to remember that China isn't quite as homogeneous as the CCP would like it.
Not that I'm an apologist for the CCP (I'm anti-socialist); I wish they'd get the hell out of Tibet and leave Taiwan alone plus a lot of other stuff, but I still think Nixon & co chose the right strategy (and apparently every single president after Nixon have shared this point of view).
p.s. Whitey McWhite? You fall in a bucket of paint or something? We're pink! Caucasians are pink, even caucasian nerds are pink or at least yellowish
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
I think it was earlier this year the first shopping mall in Beijing , and only people with above-average income could even afford to buy what was for sale there. So much for less expensive.
The BBC has a feature on the China profile about this and Chinese consumers were saying how expensive it was.
The problem with labor costs, is that it is always lower somewhere else. There was a recent article in the Chinese state media about how some wage-sensitive jobs are leaving China for Bengladash and Vietnam.
Also, by saying things cost less and money goes further is like the old SNL skit about the bank that gives only change. They don't make any profit on the transaction, but they make it up in volume! As income rises, so do prices. There is no other way. In addition, besides that, the 80% of the rest of the Chinese population that lives in absolute poverty will only become more impoverished (if that is even possible), as the disparity between income classes grows.
I'm not sure exactly how a mall the size of the pentagon (6.5 million square feet) makes China a "better" or "more modern" place than the USA? In fact if you want to know one aspect of the problem with the USA is that we have adopted low-priced consumerism as an economic strategy.
Finally, if the USA wanted to hurt China, besides reneging on government bonds (on which there is nothing to "foreclose" or "liquidate"), we could just stop all importation of Chinese goods. It is highly unlikely that the rest of the world could soak up all of the manufacturing capacity to keep Chinese workers employed. All items made in China can be bought from somewhere else. Certainly at a higher, and maybe a much higher, price, but there would not likely be an immediate, dire impact on the USA. In fact it might make the USA stronger in some regards. Look at fuel costs. They have tripled over two years (gasoline at least), but the USA did not collapse.
And that's just the WoW gold farmers!
It's the same thing I hear every day from Fox News, the KKK, the Torture President, the paleocons, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Nobody seems to remember the same things happening to protesters in the USA rather recently.
There is no elephant in this room!!
China knows it has an economic growth comming, and it's a long time in comming, isn't it?
Anyway, with this growth they are susspicious. They don't feel the more wealthy countries will be so remiss as to allow their riches to just funell away. So China may be slowley stepping up it's intelligence gathering opperations to this effect.
China is a big bad machine. If we give them an inch they will take $3,000 miles without a heartbeats pause.
When in Rome....
Given the sensitivity of military data and computer networks, why is there even a way in from the outside?
- 175.html). Simply having passwords and firewalls can (and has been) defeated, but if the only physical path from outside in is through an encryption device, I would think that would effectively thwart any attempts to get in.
Not being "in the know" on breaking into computer systems, there is likely something I'm missing. However, if the military networks are carrying data sensitive enough to cause this kind of trouble, why not isolate those systems from the outside world. By that I mean physically isolated, as in zero Internet connections.
To go from site to site, any and all data traffic passes through encryption devices, such as a TACLANE KG-175 (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/security/_work/kg
I guess my question is: if there is no physical connection between a classified network and an unclassified network, how does one break into it?
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I for one welcome our new Azn h4>0r overlords. No, seriously, I think that it's great that many people in China are improving their lives (just wish it wasn't in IT), but it sucks that our government (USA) doesn't have the balls to prevent corruption and power abuses and then worry about other nations human rights abuses (though even the worst prisoner abuses here are nothing compared to what has been done in China, and the frequency is much greater there also).
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Spying is healthy. The U2s we sent over Russia and, later on, the spy sattelites did more to stop WWIII then anything else. Every spies on everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if Britain spies on the US and visa versa.
I had to re-itterate in a more to the point fashion, that the current state of finance in the world has a little over 1% of the worlds population (United States + European Union) controlling almost 50% of the worlds total GDP.
We have nothing to worry about in our lifetimes.
One interesting possibility to consider is that the relentless quest for quality in Japan and now Shanghai is sometimes not based on sound economics. In other words, a lot of the high-quality construction and services are money-losing propositions.
However, it is possible that some of this pays off by drawing people to the cities, and drawing in more investment, on a larger scale... I don't know, but I doubt it in the end. Japan was hit hard by their inefficiencies in this area.
But modern economies are so productive, it seems they can sometimes handle huge waste, disaster, or inefficiency and keep on chugging. Every country seems to have something like this going on, whether it's the military in the U.S., construction in Japan, or social services in Europe...
Stop trading with these pricks and strengthening their nation. Than they can lob all the packets they like at us and it won't matter.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
the raw amount of scans and attempted break-ins from mainland chinese A-classes was ridiculous.
route add -net 221.0.0.0/8 gw 127.0.0.1
among many others was the only way to stop my logs from overflowing.
What reality were *you* in in 1989? Were you even thought of yet? I mean... I *witnessed* the tanks, I saw the blood - albiet on television. And yet, you cite the Almighty Wikipedia. How funny are you? Do you *really* think that in this day and age, you would find useful information about Tiannamen?
j une/4/newsid_2496000/2496277.stm
-- watch the video
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book79e.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html -- here's your pictures!!
But I believe the ones you really want are here: http://www.cnd.org/June4th/photos/mascr003.gif.
Yeah, they were *so* in support of those students... of MURDERING them! You should be ASHAMED!!!!!!!!
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
I guess you missed the satire in this: "Just ask Britain and France! If anyone understands that national standing on the international scene, once established, is permanent... it's them!"
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
There is no democracy in Venezuela. All that is left is a hollow national assembly that is directly controlled by the president, who is a common thief with aspirations to become the next Saddam Hussein.
I had a feeling, back during the Operation Sundevil days, when tons of
teenaged computer hackers were jailed and barred from touching computers, that
the US policy of jailing talented smart computer hackers would come back to bit
us in the ass. The very people who would have been best equipped to wage a
possible cyber-war, are barred from it, and other countries will expoit that
weakness. We should have been giving those kids jobs and training instead of
jail.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
C'mon slashdotters, show em who's boss!
Im sure China's geeks work day and night, week after week, slaving over a dark keyboard to crack your systems.
US's geeks spent about an hour on the encryptions, then logged on WoW and raided MC for the rest of the day.
Am no fek Buddhist, but this is enlightenment.
"These attacks come from someone with intense discipline."
It's only a warehouse full of teenage Chinese World of Warcrafters demonstrating a little shock and awe.
Of all the activities a nation can engage in; none is as taxing as war.
It consumes more resources, destablizes economies, and has an incredible impact on the culture of all nations involved.
Not to mention many many people die.
Many people on this list are posting many very good reasons why a war between china and the usa is not something either side would want. All of these points are good and sound.
However, good and sound minds do not start wars. Brilliant people full of love for their own people and their own glory, in possesion of iron-clad intellect and a cold heart to individuals when compared to the larger mass of humanity, have, at various points, gone forth and Conquested; but not Warred, the difference being the scope of the conflict.
A battle between china and the usa would be war. Look at how much trouble america is having with a place as pathetic as Iraq, if you need a point of reference.
Bush is not of a good and sound mind.
I don't know much about chinese politics, but it doesn't take much looking at the current state of affairs out there to determine that whomever is in charge over there is also not of a good and sound mind.
Leaders care about those they lead. Our leaders do not. Nor do China's.
Our leaders lust for power and material wealth, and those are wonderful reasons to go to war.
Hell, one of us just declared a war for, what appears in retrospect (and appeared at the time to anybody who did any research), to be absolutely no reason whatsoever; and the other has been deploying military personnel against it's own citizens for longer than I can even recall.
This is saber rattling. The Absolute best kind of opening moves for a war that china could make.
If they decide they don't want to attack after all, they can just shrug and say, 'Naw, not our military. Just crazy hackers. Nevermind why a keyboard is standard issue to our infantry, buy our stuff instead!', and will probably STILL make off with something of value; and if it doesn't even come to that, they can just do this for months... and months... and months...
and eventually learn many things of value I'm certain. If they pursue social engineering with as much vigor as they pursue the nuts and bolts kind of hacking, I promise you they already know plenty they shouldn't. There are many people in the service who are dissatisfied, underpaid, in debt, and/or underappreciated. Most of them start loyal, but many are not Now. I know this from my own military experience, and the letters/emails/conversations I've had with various friends who were recently deployed. Hell, all of them are underappreciated. It wouldn't be hard to get what you want out of them, with just a little bit of patience.
A regime change over here would fix everything, as would one over there.
Let us pray/hope that one or the other occurs.
I wonder how many Chinese agents/patriots are astroturfing this thread right now?
There's got to be more than one. Do you think their message is that "the US is a great country, and that Democracy is better than dictatorship of the prolitariet?"
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Compared with Americans though they are fine right?
1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )
1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed
1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.
1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed
1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed
1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed
1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed
1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed
1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed
1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed
1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,
1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,
Source: Philip Bradbury, Insight Magazine, November 2001
The Chinese play a mean game of GO (wei chi). I'm not particularly good at it, but the whole feel of the game is quite different. It's really challenging to say which of some moves is better or why. Moves often have very subtle effect over a large area of the board, and the "battle" is fought on many many fronts. It fits the "in everything they do" part of your comment better than chess.
You want to understand their strategy? Study their strategy game.
High quality goods are a lot less expensive in China.
They're also made there with cheap labor; those involved at the lowest level of the manufacturing process can't even think about purchasing what they make. The same surely can't be said of the US. The higher cost of goods in the US is related to the higher level of well-being of those involved in getting them to the consumer.
Also comparing GDP per person doesn't work well when the ratio is on the order of 4:1.
I'll entertain that notion for the moment. Their GDP is about $7.6 trillion, ours 11.7. Theirs is growing at about 9.1%, ours 4.4. In five years, ceretis paribus, they'll be where we are now, but we'll be in the neighborhood of 14.6. However, they'll still have a billion or so more people, many of whom are peasants. Yes, they still have peasants (estimated to be between 800 and 900 million). I think that precludes their entry into "first-world" status. If you convert the numbers to GDP per capita sine rusticis, then they're pretty close to the US. But that's ignoring well over half of their population, which is kinda hard to do.
violence is molding.
sent from my slashdot browser.
"What reality were *you* in in 1989? Were you even thought of yet? I mean... I *witnessed* the tanks, I saw the blood - albiet on television."
I saw the same television in Mr. Davis' sixth grade class.
Did you read anything I wrote, let alone what's in Wikipedia? I did not say "nobody was killed," and I did not say "The PRC didn't massacre its own civillians in a desperate bid to retain power," I said "No students were killed in the square." Many many people died at the hands of the People's Liberation Army in Beijing, but they weren't students, and they weren't in the square.
You would think that in an enlightened, republican society, what happened to the man-on-the-street in Beijing would be more important than what did (not) happen to a socialist student protest (in a communist state, go figure). The Party did not gun down the students because everybody was watching, but they did gun down the people nobody paid any attention to, because students are more important, to the Party and apparently to the West.
And it continues to hold true today. The only reason you and the parent and everybody else remember it is because they think that the people they saw on the picture box were the ones killed. The ones that died never got their 15 minutes.
This does not speak well of our society or our values.
This has been going on since the mid nineties.
go ahead and google "titan rain"
[ ]Clever sig [X]Lame sig
Venezuela's president was democratically elected and is not the puppet of any corporations or particular group. Freedom is higher than it's been before and constantly increasing there for the average citizen.
Just because you've visited the touristy areas of a huge Chinese mega-city, that doesn't make you an expert on China. Did you happen to visit the slums while you were there? How about the rural farmers that can barely feed and clothe their families?
And guess what, the McDonalds in my small US town will also bring your food to your table if it's not ready right away. I've seen this at a few other fast food joints too. This means nothing other than that particular store's manager cares about running the place and the kids who work there aren't too retarded.
Your view of China is about as real as that of someone who forms an opinion of the US solely based on a visit to New York City.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
I thought "War on ......" was a American euphemism for "an unsolvable problem we will futilely waste vast resources on in an ongoing and unsuccesful attempt to solve using means and methods long ago shown not to work." (Sounds like a corporate mission statement, doesn't it)
"War on Poverty," "War on Drugs," and "War on Terrorism" are perfect examples.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
"Titan Rain", pah. So what's "Screaming Fist" in Chinese, anyways?
It seems like it's been forever that the US Military has been drumming this beat up, always saying the Chinese are out to hack us and eventually they make the point "you hackers should go and whoop them good for 'ye old US-o-A". I've seen many a propaganda email traced back to Naval computers that were sent to hacker zines and groups, this is just the same old trick. Let's stop making hypothesis about how, why or if Chinese military is trying to hack US Military networks and get some proof. Let's not play the movie-plot security game here. I don't care if big names say it's real, I want proof.
China will always need to rely on exports. Do you expect the Chinese to start buying products at the rate that American consumers do?
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
I call Shens. Small adjustments in the amount of income that is taxed for SS will easily cover the increase in SS payments because of all the Baby Boomers leaving the work force. Some of these adjustments have already been made.
Moreover, most of the way that China keeps it's dominance in the world market is through illegally manipulating it's currencies value. They peg it to the Dollar. Recently China said it would allow it's currency to raise slightly against the dollar. The amount they let it rise though was insignificant.
The United States is in trillions of dollars of debt, and our population compared to a country like China is small. If, in a war sense we looked at both sides, China has the advantage due to the fact of their population. But looking at it from another point of view, virtual war isn't going to be the only front for becoming the super power of the world. For example, just as the United States puts it's coastal missile defense systems up, countries including China are complaining as the system comes into existence. Most Nuclear warfare no longer is a problem against the Unites States, and this scares them. So China decides they want to go to war and no ones on the side of the USA, well we nuke them and they can't nuke us. Due to the fact that we could wipe out China's population easily with the over 10,000 nuclear missiles which can hit anywhere in the world with a push of a button or if we feel the need to not have a nuclear winter, their are always some of the new weapons we have now that don't create nuclear winters. So I begin to think that these attacks even if brought upon by the China's military are just merely tests to see how strong our computer systems are in the case they want to spy on what the USA government is doing. Remember in the past the only way that the different country got our advancements was through spying on our countries advancements, well our government is a lot more tightly tied and it bring me to think that China is looking to see what doors are open to steal whats next on USA's horizon of advancement.
The China situation probably pisses me off more than any single other issue. Its an issue where both parties are on the same side; the side of profit-whoring multinationals that have no problem selling out American workers and small business and buddying up to the rights-abusing monster that is the Chinese govt.
It is very desireable that countries like China and India should achieve a modern standard of living for their people, as this is the only way to effectively curtail population growth. When people are comfortable, the last thing they want is 10 kids.
The world needs this! It may have some drawbacks, but it's better than environmental holocaust 100 years from now.
100 years is really not that long, folks.
What is your basis for thinking that the U.S. doesn't understand this? Just because WalMart buys t-shirts from China, it doesn't mean our military and counter-intelligence forces aren't playing hardball with the Chinese. Heck just because WalMart is buying in China doesn't mean they aren't playing hardball with every negotiation.
Make no mistake--plenty of people understand the score with China. International detente and diplomacy is not exactly a new subject to the U.S. But what you need to understand is that part of the rules of such a game is the public face of the relationship. China and the U.S. may sit at the table like friends, shaking hands and doing deals, but make no mistake--under the table, out of view, they wrestle for advantage. Just because you, Joe Public, don't see the weapons, don't assume they aren't there.
The real thing to understand with respect to China is that they are at significant disadvantage to the U.S. right now. Their technology is behind, their economy is almost an order of magnitude less powerful, they have a less capable military, a less capable populace. The only effective lever they have with which to grapple with the U.S. is brute-force manufacturing.
Yes, they are changing, but so is the U.S. Don't make the mistake of comparing the U.S. of today to the China of 20 years from now.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Canada has OpenBSD -- of course the Gouvernment here, as a general rule, wouldn't think of using anything non-Microsoft (*maybe* a Solaris webserver in a pinch). But hey, both the US and Chinese governments can be well defended for a song.... Hell, they can download that too ...
War will erupt when China's old men try to take Taiwan before they die - they will die in the attempt as Beijing becomes fused glass and 3000 years of civilization is annihilated in a very exciting 25 minutes. Chinese will be reduced to pounding rocks together and eating their infant young (once again" they have done this in the past many times) for next 1000 years.
Taiwan says to PRC: "Go ahead! Make my Day!"
An excellent point, which is why the vast majority of weapons systems used by the US are built in the US with US components. The COTS gear is another matter. The post-war situation would without a doubt be seriously screwed up, but I'd imagine in-sourcing would come back into fashion.
Luke, help me take this mask off
And blame the consumers. Wal-Mart only sells what people buy.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
This stuff has been going on for a while. Remember a few years ago when that Chinese military jet (the pilot was ironically named "Wong Wei") collided with the US spy plane? They've been trying to hack the US Government at least since then. Of course, the US is doing it to them as well. That's what the NSA is for. I guess this demonstrates the bad training that China's military has. Apparently they don't hack correctly to successfully hide themselves. The US has probably carried out plenty of cyber-attacks, but "no one" knows about this. Those who would know can't say, and those who have been attacked likely don't know who attacked them or can't say anything because the US blackmailed them.
That said, that oil pipeline story sounds like it's gotten a little bit garbled in the telling. It doesn't really make sense as written.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The already have.
They stopped buying months ago.
They're quite effective at showing a nice facade to the west, while most of the population doesn't really have access to the facade goodies.
The Raven
Who are the criminals: Those attempting entry, or those publicizing the attempt? "Shut up out there, woman! All that screamin' about your huhu'll make folks think we got a crime problem."
Children, can you spell a-p-p-e-a-s-e-m-e-n-t? I knew you could! Your stance reminds me of the guy I sat on a drunk driving jury with. He didn't care what the evidence was, he just didn't trust the cops. While I've seen evidence that the US Federal Government can't always be trusted, this isn't one of those cases.
Luke, help me take this mask off
And yet, every time I turn on the news these days, it's "Counterfeit Chinese" this and "Pirated Chinese" that. These western companies are expecting the Chinese government to respect 'Intellectual Property' rights of foreign corporations when the Chinese government doesn't even respect the REAL property rights of its own citizens. SuperShuffle anyone?
Protests in China tend to get run over by tanks.
Aside from that your post makes sense - but when vietnam/ethiopia becomes the new china/japan what happens to western nations? Do we make money by owning the chinese companies or by selling the "emerging" worlds massive populations drugs?
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
Unfortunately the entire chinese miracle is built on loose credit of government loans, and the exploitation of abut 800 Million serfs. Sorry, this whole thing is going to collapse within 5-20 years, because the serfs have mobile phones. My guess is that china is going to have, of all suprising things, a communist revolution.
Chavez is a puppet of Fidel Castro; he is just a pawn on Castro's plan to turn Latin America against the US, a pawn that has a lot of oil for Castro to use for that goal. It is funny that Chavez uses the threat of American interventionism to foster nationalism, when he has sold Venezuela and all of its riches to Castro, the most terrible dictator in power today.
About the freedom, tell that to the union leader (Carlos Ortega) that just yesterday was sentenced to 15 years of prison for striking against the government, or to the public workers that were told by an oficialist senator that they would be fired if they didn't vote for the government.
The Pentagon's web page one day was replaced with a page that said "Hacked by Chinese."
Remember, Chinese tourism is state run. They MIGHT. Just MIGHT. Be showing you what they want you to see.
I think you still need to implicate the USA somehow in your post to get mod points though.
As per Amnesty International, China executes the most prisoners every year. Who is number two? The USA, ahead of Iran, Saudi Arabia and a whole host of de facto dictatorships. Democracy or not, there are certain points of the human rights debate that the US and China are actually a lot closer than one might assume. Both China and the US maintain secret prisons. Both detain people without a proper trial, legal representation or access to aid groups like the Red Cross. Both censor information that reaches the public, China overtly and the USA covertly. China makes it nigh impossible to find certain facts, the US just makes it require effort - you can't just turn on the TV and get the 'truth', so to speak. Both advocate torture, again with China doing it overtly, but with the US doing it covertly under a host of euphemisms and legal hijinks. To me, they aren't opposites. China is just further down the road that the USA seems to want to travel on.
I'll tolerate anything except intolerance.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I type, I usually make a few mistakes. However, when I run a script it always runs the commands correctly. Even if it isn't a script, there is probably some attack case they are cutting and pasting the commands out of. It would be helpful to see how quickly individual characters are being typed, so it could be determined if they are typing the characters or not.
Also, having been in the military, there is no reason for them to train typists who never hit the wrong key.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
We've been gang donged!
Consider going to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong. You might feel differently about US domination. Having been there, I could only conclude that the US was a third world country in the making and that Asia cities represent the ultra modern future we all aspire toward. If you go to Shanghai you should try the sooper high speed mag-lev train.
I don't think you understand what "Third World" means, or that a person could easily buy a working car for less than the cost of a ticket on a high-speed mag-lev train, drive to the same place the train would have brought them, and still have a working car. High-speed trains and other such things are merely expensive, shiny gimmicks, and not at all indicative of the level a civilization has attained.
That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
And why does the US need to do that? Social Security should just disappear anyway, since its taxes punish everyone because of those few who don't have the foresight to save for retirement. It's a garbage idea.
I realize that you said "approximately" but currently only 5 of our 12 aircraft carriers are away from their homeport: http://www.navy.mil/palib/news/.www/status.html
This is idiotic. It must be the Chinese military because the "attacks" originate in China, and the perpetrators "were in and out with no keystroke errors and left no fingerprints, and created a backdoor in less than 30 minutes. How can this be done by anyone other than a military organization?" Yeah, that no-keystroke-error thing is a dead giveaway.
we aren't doing it too. Remember the 2001 spy plane incident? If we have spy planes flying around, you bet we have hackers on their networks. The NSA, CIA, and military fund hacking think tanks and advanced CS research, and classify math. The military is probably downplaying China's attacks because China downplays theirs. Also, because releasing just about any information about what was cracked, what was actually a honey pot, etc., would compromise operations.
Sendou Wave Kick!!
Now, I know the US Navy isn't stupid enough to have that list updated in real time.
...Then again, we live in a country whose media corporations don't believe that terrorists get CNN.
Gods below, could you imagine?
Japanese Admiral 1: "We need to sink their carriers!"
Japanese Admiral 2: "Hold on, let me pull up their website... Hey, they're not at Pearl. It says they're out to sea. It looks like two are in the Pacific and the rest are in the Atlantic."
Japanese Admiral 1: "Well, shit! Ah, well, let's check again next week."
Consider going to Bejing, Shanghai or Hong Kong.
Beijing is hardly a futuristic city (not really sure why you included that one. It's a beautiful city, but it hardly fits in with the other two). Hong Kong's prosperity is completely and absolutely the result of the British rule and law, and it has diminished since the takeover.
If you go to Shanghai you should try the sooper high speed mag-lev train.
One thing about a statist economy is that you can put billions towards really dumb money sinks, all to get gullible citizens and tourists to proclaim about how futuristic it is. I hear Brazilia in Brazil is a real futuristic city as well.
I was really surprised by the whole energy of the place. When I went to McDonalds and they didn't have my food immediately, they said no problem we will find you and bring it to you when its ready. 2 min latter I had my fries. This particular McDonald's had around 30 registers all open. They said that they served 6000 lunches everyday -- just nuts. You won't find any fast food resturant in the US that can manage that volume and provide good service too.
You're impressed that they brought your food to you? Wow, your opinion really needs to be considered suspect. Fastfood restaurants everywhere bring food to you.
Regarding the McDonalds being big --- if that's your measure of prosperity... That's like saying that a town is a great town because they have the largest Walmart. I'm going to have to presume that you're being sarcastic.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
Ah, good old fear mongering and ignorant economics. Ignoring the fact that China isn't a big financer of debt (and hasn't been for some time), countries don't buy bonds because they're benevolent - they do it for their own best interest. In the case of China they buy up US $ (and formerly bonds) to prop up the dollar, which keeps the yuan undervalued and serves China.
Secondly, if China did something (ignoring that they couldn't do anything that could be rapidly circumvented) they would punish the US $, depreciating their own holdings in US bonds (most of which can't be cashed in for years and decades. Boy, win win!
Idiots that don't have the slightest clue about economics, and that are wide-eyed about isolated advantages (OMG! I hear that North Korea has gigantic pyramid towers! They must be super first world!) should just keep their ignorance to themselves. China is eventually joining the ranks of the first world, and will soon earn some "problems" like citizens that don't like being poisoned by the air and water, and who like some rights, but this pissy nonsense about how the US is doomed reeks of ignorance.
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt. Once China no longer relies on exports we will be at their mercy. That will happen in around 10 - 20 years just when the US needs money to fund SS payments to baby-boomers.
statements like this are in the news a lot, but i've never talked to a respectable economist that thinks it's true. what model are you using to come up with this scenario? by "buying our debt" they are investing in US companies. if they are out to get us, why are they giving their savings to US companies to use for capital investment?
additionally, economic growth in china has been enormously beneficial to the united states. it has created jobs and increased growth in our own country because of increased trade. data shows it and nearly any trade model will support this whether it is an old model based on comparative advantage or a "new tade" model based on increased competition.
The US military simply discovered a few infected machines in China that happens to hammer their servers with stupid attacks. I just drop those kind of things with IP tables.
Oh well, what the hell...
The moderator is right, your math is interesting. 40100 to 5600 is much closer to 7:1 than 4:1. The point of reporting statistics "per capita" is that YOU CAN COMPARE THEM, dumbass.
I don't think we should be worrying about this...if all indications are correct, a pandemic of epic proportions are going to wipe out millions of people, starting with...yes, you guessed it...asia, China included. The l33t Chinese h4x0rs are gonna be hard pressed to h4x the US 'puters if they're dying of bird flu, fo sho'.
"Today, December 14, 2005 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by 311e7 hax0r forces of Godless Commie Bastards of People's Republic of China..."
Using Linux I can read the text, but using Windoze I can't !
How to set Windoze up to properly display the texts ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
1. The US and China are spying against each others. Both are bad motherfuckers to the fullest extent.
2.The US isn't as poor as some have portrayed (this you got it right)
3. Your point about Japan barely register in the radar just isn't gonna jive with the REAL TRUTH
4. This world isn't only measured in terms of population and/or wealth. Don't forget that most turmoils of human society has nothing to do with wealth and/or ethnicity, but rather, RELIGION , as evidenced in the WTC bombing, the slaughering of little children in Southern Russia, the Bali bombing, etc. And that aspect alone will altered, whether we like it or not, the world's outlook in the long-run.
6. With Rumsfeld's help, George W. Bush has fouled up almost everything, and that hurts the United States of America a lot, not only in image, but in the morale of the American as a whole. That doesn't work well with the global cut-throat competition that is happening all around us, in terms of commerce, technology, strength, believe system, and so on.
And finally...
7. Screwing around with facts and figures is easy, but to get the real facts out of everything isn't as easy as you think.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
So we have yet another "evil china" story popping up.
Let's think about this for a moment...
A crack team of chinese military hackers break into various american sensitive computers (supposedly protected by the latest and greatest) and steal information, and all of them get traced back to their computers in Guangdong.
What is wrong with this picture?
Don't know? Here's a hint: What kind of professional hacker doesn't use at least 1 zombie proxy in between himself and his target?
Have fun swimming in this sea of bullshit.
By James Sherman
(We take you now to the Oval Office.)
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
This news release seems to be released awfully soon after the news release that my federal government has records on domestic peace protesters. I hope this post doesn't add me to that list...
Go ahead, ask them how they explain the failures of the US and other armies in the recent past to win. Bet they can't but give excuses.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Trust me. China now has weapons matching U.S.
Moreoever, there are more chinese in china than there are americans in U.S.
MOREOEVER, there are so many chinese in U.S. it's gonna choke U.S.
So, don't worry, U.S. and China won't go to war. The chinese have never invaded other countries throughout history. As long as the U.S. doesn't do anything stupid, there's peace.
ALL yOUr BaSE arE BeL0Ng 2 U.S.a.
Unbelievable.
In the attacks, Paller said, the perpetrators "were in and out with no keystroke errors and left no fingerprints, and created a backdoor in less than 30 minutes. How can this be done by anyone other than a military organization?"
Hello? Did you ever heard something called script?
I can't stand the accusation, at least give a bit of reason why he said it is surely a military attack, not just throwing words like "keystroke errors" and such.
Your definition of traitor is all wrong in the modern day. A guy who plays chess against a Russian - he's a traitor and must be hassled about it for years and forever exiled. A guy who sells weapons to Iran after they declare that the USA is the great Satan and must be destroyed - and then gives most of the money to a drug dealer after embezzling a bit for himself - that's a patriot.
If a war starts, US will be on the ground -- economically booted.
Therefore ... china can do practically everything with the US!
E.g.: http://www.studien-von-zeitfragen.net/Zeitfragen/C ollapse_in_2005_/collapse_in_2005_.html
...
The largest buyers of US government debt have been the central banks of the Asia-Pacific. The central banks of Japan and China alone hold more than $1 trillion of US Treasury bonds as foreign currency reserves. Worldwide foreign central banks hold some $1.3 trillion of US government debt. If private debt is added, the United States is the world's largest debtor, with some $3.7 in net foreign debt, as of the start of this year, likely well over $4 trillions by now. In 1980 when Ronald Reagan was elected the US was the world's creditor with a plus of $1 trillion.
It's a funny thing that on one hand the people who determine America's politics, ie. the 'Christian' extremists and the big businesses (and not, as would have been the case in a real democracy the people), have been pushing the largely invalid propaganda that 'China/Russia/... are SO evil' - to the extent that most people in America actually believe this to true; and on the other hand those same people are pushing for increased dependency on and trade with China.
I don't know how, but you guys - the American people - seriously need to open your eyes. I mean, for years you've all agreed that politicians, lawyers, news services and big businesses are totally amoral and will constantly lie to you about anything as long as it serves their purpose; so why do you keep taking that crap? And not only that, you lap it up as if it was the very Gospel itself, and you let it go on and on. How can a country be a democracy if people are not allowed to see enough of the truth to make up their own minds?
Personally I think the basic problem is your extreme, paranoid version of 'capitalism' - it would do all of you good to incorporate some of the ideas of socialism in your society. Look at countries like Denmark, Norway and Sweden - perhaps not the most brilliant stars in the sky, but there's a lot of good there that you simply don't have. You could, however.
Ah, good old fear mongering and ignorant economics. Ignoring the fact that China isn't a big financer of debt (and hasn't been for some time), countries don't buy bonds because they're benevolent - they do it for their own best interest. In the case of China they buy up US $ (and formerly bonds) to prop up the dollar, which keeps the yuan undervalued and serves China.
You were pretty condescending in your reply. However, you're not so smart yourself because if you were, you would realize that proping up the dollar makes the yuan more valuable. Whatever the reason is that China is buying US securities, it sure isn't to prop up the dollar because the yuan is undervalued precisely because it was linked to the weak US dollar. The less the dollar was worth, the less the yuan was worth. Now China links the yuan to a "basket of currencies" including the US dollar. In theory, that should raise the value of the yuan, but it has made very little difference in reality.
Funny thing is that for all the bitching the US government does about the value of the yuan, a few years ago during the Asian currency crisis, our government praised China for avoiding the crisis precisely because the yuan was linked to the US dollar, which kept it from losing value during the crisis.
As far as I know, the high-speed train was created for the sole purpose of making China SEEM like the ultra-modern future.
What? Like Ogdenville, Brockway and North Haverbrook?
Man, you've really got to read the paper more often. Saying China's still communist is kind of like saying America supports free markets. They're more capitalist than we are, for god's sake.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
You definitely made some good points, that I do agree with. But I also know that they *did* kill students in the square, in addition to the bystanders. And just like the media today, they make the biggest noise about what sells the most papers, not the truth. Is there *anywhere* to look to find it today? Just kinda hammers home the point ... "History is written by the victorious". :(
:)
And yes... it does. I try to step up and hold myself to the same ethics, standards and values that my grandparents and forefathers going back centuries did.... not the sh!t my 'parents' shoved down my throat. I suppose that's why I try to make the best judgements based on the most information possible. And in a BFE military town when I was 16, wasn't exactly to place to find the information...... and definitely something that bides more research. I've been studying the people of China for some time, particularly the rural familial structure and home life. I can only hope that they will find their way to freedom soon. I know it is coming, and I think that Beijing 2008 will have a huge impact on China... much more than they think.
Jho
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
Well, the Chinese PLA have been thinking for quite a while about how to workaround those things the US does well militarily - and find new ways to fight and new kinds of weapons that will make US military doctrine ineffective. The goal is to weaponize other stuff that will force tactical change for which US weapons and the tactics implied by their design useless.
n restricted.pdf
Here's a quote:
"As soon as technological advances may be applied to military goals, and furthermore are
already used for military purposes, they almost immediately seem obligatory, and also often go
against the will of the commanders in triggering changes or even revolutions in the modes of
combat" -- Engels
from a book, "Unrestricted Warfare", by two PLA colonels, available (excerpted) here: http://www.terrorism.com/documents/TRC-Analysis/u
The funniest thing of it all is we paid china to do it by whoring out most of our economy to them just for the sake of greed , stupid politicians and corporations .
The cause is inflation, moreso than greed and corporations. "Stupid politicians" voted for a central bank, to change the U.S. currency from value-based (Gold & Silver) to debt-based. Politicians like a debt-based (fiat) currency, because then they don't need to tax the citizenry to give money to their fellow bandits - they just "print" up a billion dollars and give it to connected organizations (Military-Industrial Complex, Halliburton, Betchtel, etc).
("stupid politicians" is in quotes because I don't know the veracity of the allegation that the Federal Reserve Bank act was passed by a handful of congressmen on December 23rd, when most of the other congressmen had already left. See Response to crticism of The Creature from Jeckyll Island)
Corporations are just fighting for survival... Because of inflation, employees of American manufacturers are forced to demand higher wages. So the manufacturers send out notices that, because their costs are going up, they're going to be charging more. WalMart ("Always Low Prices. Always") says to their suppliers, "Sorry, no can-do - keep your prices the same or we'll go somewhere else. P.S. Why don't you follow us to China?" See PBS Frontline's Is Wal-Mart Good for America? on how they bitchslapped Rubbermaid when the costs for plastic material went up.
This is not "greed" on wal-mart's part, so much as it is fear that their competitors will undercut them.
So, if not stupid politicians & corporations, who's to blame for the destruction of the economy? Well - George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush and John Kerry were all members of Skull & Bones... Bill Clinton was a member of the Bilderberg group (American Free Press is the only American news outlet I know of that reports on Bilderberg). Most of the presidents since the 50's have been a member of Bilderburg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, or Skull & Bones. The push for one-world-government has been going on for over 120 years - these people are dedicated, and this is the end-game. NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, EU, UN - all these entities play a part in dividing up the world into blocks for efficient global governance.
Someone will dismiss what I've said here with "you're just a conspiracy theorist"... Well - think what you want. You're certainly free to believe that you're as free in America today as you would've been 200 years ago. I have no such delusions.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
In closing, the US needs to sell $3,000,000,000 in bonds everyday to China just to keep running. If they really wished us harm they could just stop buying our debt.
Of course not. The buy the US debt so that they get financial control over your country. Once they a couple $1e12 USD worth of bonds, they have the power to make the country bankrupt, hence they can start dictating what you do.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Must be because it's true.
I remember a while back the story of a backdoor that someone attempted to install into the Linux kernel that would allow anyone who knew about it root access.
It was caught because of the diligence of the maintainers, but it involved one character of difference. One character.
Do you honestly believe that the NSA doesn't have such backdoors installed in the software produced in the US? How hard would it be to slip something like that in (intentionally or otherwise)?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"It would kick americas butt in both a ground war and a nuclear exchange."
How many nuclear subs does CHina have, and how advanced are they?
How many nuclear subs does the US have, and how advanced are they?
Nulcear is a lose lose for both sides, but your suggestion that China has nuclear dominance is so wrong it's laughable.
The US has nuclear subs that are for all intents and purposes, undetectable. China has nothing that can compete, but they're trying.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"Villianizing China... why???"
Because they act like villains?
No, that couldn't be it...
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"Who are the terrorists:"
I looked REALLY hard, and while it's possible I may have missed it, I didn't see the word terrorist used in any of the reports.
So, my question to you is what purpose can it possibly serve to cry "terrorism"? Why are you clouding the issue?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"Wako"
It's "Waco" not "Wako".
And once again, someone opens their idiot yap in an attempt to appear informed, and instead displays how little they've actually bothered to learn.
"rational is something I certainly am not."
It was bound to happen, you actually got something right.
Now, let's generalize that to the rest of your posts.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Rational means to relate something to something else. Why are you so stupid?